Sitting of 23 July 1959

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BOOTLE CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  Read the Third time and passed, with Amendments.
  BOOTLE CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
    LEE VALLEY WATER BILL [Lords]
      SOUTH WALES TRANSPORT BILL [Lords]
      As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

MILFORD HAVEN (TIDAL BARRAGE) BILL [Lords]
Mr. Donnelly: I beg to move,
That the Milford Haven (Tidal Barrage) Bill [Lords] be re-committed to the former Committee and that it be an Instruction to the Committee on the re-committed Bill that they have power to reconsider their decision on the Preamble of the Bill as reported by them to the House.
Hon. Members: Object.
Mr. Speaker: What day?
Mr. Donnelly: Monday next.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Stoke-on-Trent
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade what further action has been taken to introduce more industrial capacity within the City of Stoke-on-Trent and in North Staffordshire; what are the prospects for the municipal industrial sites, in particular the Newstead and Stoke sites; and to what extent consultations have taken place over the need for industrial development with the City of Stoke-on-Trent.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Sir David Eccles): The Board of Trade has brought the facilities available in North Staffordshire to the attention of a number of industrialists. Two firms are starting small projects there, though not on the Newstead or Stoke sites. The Stoke-on-Trent City Council has not asked for any consultations.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Will the President of the Board of Trade ask his regional officers to get in touch with the city council officers on this matter?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, I will.

    Pottery Industry
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade what recent action has been taken to increase the output of the pottery industry, electrical porcelain products and sanitary fittings; and what are the prospects for increased exports.
    Sir D. Eccles: The pottery industry has increased its efficiency in recent years. I am confident manufacturers will maintain their keen interest in exports and that there are good prospects in many old and new markets.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: As the President of the Board of Trade has had great experience recently in advising and assisting in the formation of consortiums with a view to capturing more available world trade, does he not think that the time has arrived to give consideration to this industry in that way?
    Sir D. Eccles: That is an interesting suggestion which I shall bear in mind.

    Trade with China
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a full statement on trade with China; what results have been obtained since the Parliamentary Secretary and others have visited China; what are the future trade prospects; and what consideration is being given to the need for a trade agreement like that negotiated in Moscow, and the facilities of the Export Credits Guarantee Department for exports to China.
    Sir D. Eccles: Our exports to China in 1958 were £27 million against £12 million in 1957, while imports from China increased from £14 to £19 million. The

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    level of business depends primarily on the trading policy of the Chinese Government. The facilities of the Export Credits Guarantee Department are available for exporters to China and I do not consider that there is need for a trade agreement.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: As one who was kept in full employment for many years through large-scale trading with China, particularly in heavy electrical plant, as one who assisted in the training of many Chinese students, and knowing the enormous good will they have for Britain, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to take early steps with a view to capitalising that enormous good will so that there can be the maximum trade between the two countries?
    Sir D. Eccles: I shall certainly do my best, but the Chinese Government have not shown any desire to have a trade agreement.

    Consumer Habits (Report)
    Mr. Jannerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has now received the results of the classification and tabulation of the report of his inquiry into consumer habits; and if he will make a statement.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Rodgers): My right hon. Friend expects to receive the results of the inquiry very shortly.

    Tamworth
    Mr. Snowasked the President of the Board of Trade what new industry is planned for Tamworth, Staffordshire.
    Sir D. Eccles: Industrial development certificates have been granted for industrial buildings in Tamworth which are expected to provide over 1,100 jobs.
    Mr. Snow: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask if he will be prepared to discuss with me the question of industrial capacity for Tamworth, bearing in mind that other Departments are concerned, notably Agriculture? Would he be prepared to consider asking his regional officers to enter into a discussion with the local authority concerned?
    Sir D. Eccles: We are always ready to enter into discussions of that kind, but I think the hon. Member will recognise that Tamworth is doing pretty well.

    Productivity
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to improve British productivity in view of the fact that the average American worker's output is more than twice that of his British counterpart.
    Sir D. Eccles: Industry itself is primarily responsible for improving our industrial productivity. The British Productivity Council is the national body concerned with productivity and its activities are supported by a grant-in-aid from the Board of Trade.
    Captain Pilkington: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a very wide feeling, sincerely held, that the T.U.C. leaders should concern themselves very much more with this deplorable state of affairs and rather less with the intricacies of foreign affairs?
    Sir D. Eccles: My experience, for what it is worth, is that the T.U.C. is concerned with productivity.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the amount of electricity at the elbow of the American worker is very many times more than is available to the British worker?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir.
    Sir L. Ropner: Does my right hon. Friend accept the statement made in the Question that the productivity of the average American worker is more than twice that of his British counterpart? If so, is the comparison in terms of cost, or something else?
    Sir D. Eccles: The comparison is not in terms of cost, but, of course, as my hon. and gallant Friend knows, it is the cost of producing an article which determines its market.
    Mr. Jay: Have not many trade union leaders played a full and energetic part in all the work of the Productivity Council for years past?
    Sir D. Eccles: That is so.

    Consumer Protection (Committee)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the qualifications of the members of the Committee appointed to consider the whole question of consumer protection.
    Sir D. Eccles: I chose a balanced committee of men and women possessing good sense and judgment.
    Miss Burton: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that there is real concern among interested opinion as to which members of the Committee possess detailed consumer knowledge? Can he tell the House? Secondly, is he aware that the invitations sent out to members of the Committee go into much more detail about the terms of reference than did the reply which was given to the House? Would he consider putting a copy of those invitations in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Sir D. Eccles: I think that in the debate, which I understand we are to have on Monday, members of the Committee can be shown to possess a wide experience. I will consider putting the letter in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

    Children's Footwear (Standards)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now in a position to make a statement upon the discussions which commenced in September last between the British Standards Institution and footwear manufacturers on standards for certain components of children's shoes; and when he expects these to be concluded.
    Sir D. Eccles: The manufacturers asked the Consumer Advisory Council of the British Standards Institution to suggest what might usefully be covered by standards for children's footwear components, and the Council's views are now being considered. I have no powers to hurry them up.
    Miss Burton: If the right hon. Gentleman is sincere in wanting to hurry this, and he has said that he does, is he not aware that more than a year ago we were told that deadlock had been reached over children's footwear and that on 7th April this year we were told that these discussions had been commenced? Does he know that the B.S.I. has not fixed any
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    date for further discussions, and will he do something about it?
    Sir D. Eccles: It is taking a very long time, but I do not possess powers to force these people to meet if they do not want to do so.
    Miss Burton: Since I first raised this matter of children's footwear some five years ago, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it is time by now for him to have taken these powers?
    Sir D. Eccles: No, Sir.

    Electrical Industry (National Approvals Scheme)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now in a position to make a statement concerning the progress made by the British Standards Institution on a national approvals scheme being made in conjunction with the electrical industry, discussions of which commenced in October, 1957.
    Sir D. Eccles: I understand that discussions are continuing, but that to far nothing can be added to what I told the hon. Lady on 14th April.
    Miss Burton: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend that the subjects of children's footwear and electrical standards might be referred to the Committee on consumers' protection which is now sitting?
    Sir D. Eccles: There is no reason why they should not be.

    Stock Exchange Transactions (Protection of Investors)
    Mr. Houghtonasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he will, by regulation or otherwise, ensure that the Council of Associated Stock Exchanges indicate on their official notepaper not only the names of associated stock exchanges but which of them have compensation funds;
    (2) which stock exchanges are recognised by his Department; which have established compensation funds; and what steps he is taking to encourage those stock exchanges without compensation funds to set them up;
    (3) how many cases there have been in the last 10 years in which investors

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    have suffered losses through the bankruptcy or defalcations of members of stock exchanges recognised by his Department; and in how many cases the losses of investors were made good out of compensation funds established by the stock exchanges concerned.
    Sir D. Eccles: As the information requested contains many facts and names, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Houghton: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, which I have not seen. Is he aware of two exceptionally bad cases in which my constituents suffered losses, that of Robinson of Halifax and Andrew of Southport, both of whom were found guilty of fraudulent conversion with no protection at all for the investing public? Ought he not now to take steps to safeguard the public from the depredations of these sharks, who have the custody of public money, when there is apparently no protection whatever for losses incurred in particular stock exchanges? Does he not regard the matter more seriously now in view of the Government's encouragement to small investors to go in for stocks and shares floated on stock exchanges?
    Sir D. Eccles: The hon. Gentleman will see from the Answer that some stock exchanges have compensation funds. I have no doubt that the Answer will encourage others to take the same action.
    Following is the information:
    It is for the Council of the Associated Stock Exchanges to decide whether to show on their notepaper which of their members have compensation schemes, and it is for the individual stock exchanges to decide whether or not to establish compensation funds.
    The London Stock Exchange is a recognised stock exchange by virtue of the Prevention of Fraud (Investments) Act, 1939. The stock exchanges subsequently recognised by the Board of Trade for the purposes of the Act are the following: Aberdeen, Birmingham, Bradford, Bristol, Cardiff, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Greenock, Halifax, Huddersfield, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Mincing Lane, Newcastle - upon - Tyne, Newport (Mon.). Nottingham. Oldham, Sheffield and Swansea.
    I am informed that the following have established compensation funds: the London Stock Exchange and the stock exchanges of Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester.
    The Provincial Brokers Stock Exchange has been recognised by the Board of Trade
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    under the Act as an association of dealers in securities. This body established a guarantee fund in 1950.
    I have no information as to defalcations of members of recognised stock exchanges but there have been in the last ten years eight bankruptcies of persons described as stockbrokers or jobbers. I do not know in how many cases investors' losses became the subject of payments from compensation funds.

    Commodities (Prices and Weights)
    Mrs. Mannasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he will take to maintain stability of value as well as price in computing costs of food and other items.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: My right hon. Friend is carefully considering these matters in connection with new weights and measures legislation. Questions about the computation of the Index of Retail Prices are for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service, who, as the hon. Lady knows, does take variations of quantity into account.
    Mrs. Mann: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there are many things which he does not take into account, as I discovered in two hours at his headquarters? How soon shall we get action to protect us from the sale of tubes which are getting thinner and packets whose weight is getting less, and how soon shall we get real price stability, which means weight stability?
    Mr. Rodgers: As the hon. Lady knows, we have set up a Committee to look into the whole subject of consumer protection and a new weights and measures Bill is now being drafted.

    North American Firms, Scotland
    Sir D. Robertsonasked the President of the Board of Trade why he finds it difficult to attract North American industrialists to Scotland, in view of the fact that production costs there are much less than in the United States of America and Canada, that profitable European sales can be made at selling prices up to 40 per cent. below those prevailing in North America, and that skilled and unskilled labour is available.
    Sir D. Eccles: Since the war, thirty-two North American firms currently employing at least 18,000 people have been established in Scotland. Ten of these

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    have come in the last three years. The advantages which Scotland has to offer are becoming more widely known in the United States and Canada.
    Sir D. Robertson: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware of Scotland's great need for diversification of industry and of her very serious unemployment, which is almost double that of England? Is he aware that sometimes in constituencies like mine there are 20 men unemployed to one man unemployed in London?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir, and we are taking special steps to assist those who are publicising the advantages of Scotland among American manufacturers.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all those North American firms which have come to Scotland have expressed themselves delighted with the quality of labour and workmanship which they get there? Can he take steps to make that known to other firms wanting to set up businesses in Europe?
    Sir D. Eccles: We are doing that, and I think that the arrangements recently made in Stockholm will help us to get American firms to go to Scotland.
    Mr. John MacLeod: Will my right hon. Friend also remember that Invergordon is nearer by sea and air to many North American ports than to ports in the industrial South?
    Sir D. Eccles: We will bring that to the notice of all those undertaking this propaganda in North America.

    Citrus Imports
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade what assurances he will give to the citrus growers of the West Indies and British Honduras of the continuation of their existing level of imports, or of alternative markets, in the event of the removal of restrictions on citrus imports from the United States of America.
    Sir D. Eccles: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies and I realise the importance of this matter and we are trying to find a satisfactory solution to a very difficult problem.
    Mr. Russell: I appreciate what my right hon. Friend has said, but would he not agree that, if it is a question of international obligations making it difficult for us to give these assurances, our obligations to the Commonwealth should come first and we should try to free ourselves from those obligations if they prevent that?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir. We are trying to reconcile those two things.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Is it not a fact that these negotiations have broken down because the Government refuse to give any assurance of long-term contracts?
    Sir D. Eccles: I do not think so, but that is a question for my right hon. Friend.

    Wool Exports (United Slates)
    Mr. Jayasked the President of the Board of Trade what reply the Government have received to its latest representations to the United States Government about the United States tariff-quota on wool imports from the United Kingdom.
    Sir D. Eccles: We have not yet received a reply.
    Mr. Jay: Until the right hon. Gentleman does get some action, will he continue to represent to the American authorities that in the view of everyone here this restriction is peculiarly harmful to British trade?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir, we will.
    Mr. Hirst: In these representations will my right hon. Friend also press that these damaging limitations on our mutual trade are in fact resented by the American importers of cloth as much as by British exporters?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir. I know that the American importers are helping us in our representations.

    Printers' Ink
    Sir A. Hurdasked the President of the Board of Trade how the current imports of printers' ink from France and elsewhere compare with those of a month ago.
    Sir D. Eccles: Imports of printers' ink from France were negligible in May and June. Supplies from other countries

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    totalled 78 cwt. in May and 326 cwt. in June. No statistics for July are available.
    Sir A. Hurd: Will my right hon. Friend agree that these are very large and significant imports of printers' ink? As the daily newspapers said when the printing dispute started that they had only three days' supply of ink, have any representations about these imports been made by Mr. Briginshaw?
    Sir D. Eccles: So far as the Board of Trade is concerned, imports of printers' ink are on open general licence. That is as far as my responsibility extends.

    Tourist Trade (Hotels)
    Mr. Greenasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is satisfied that there is sufficient hotel accommodation in London and the provinces to cater for Great Britain's growing tourist trade; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir D. Eccles: No, Sir; we could do with more good class hotels and I am anxious to see them provided, as the tourist trade is a great earner of foreign exchange.
    Mr. Green: Whilst appreciating the difficulties of satisfying a fluctuating demand of this kind, can my right hon. Friend say whether he needs, or can be helped to have, further facilities for encouraging the erection of good class hotels for this trade? Has he anything in mind?
    Sir D. Eccles: That is a different question, which I cannot answer.

    North-East Lancashire
    Mr. Greenasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to encourage new industrial development in the North-East Lancashire Development Area.
    Sir D. Eccles: The Board of Trade is building a factory at Burnley for Michelin to employ about 500 and will start soon to build another factory for Burco Dean, also to employ 500. Milliards at Padiham are adding to the factory which we built for them, and some 300 further jobs should result from this.
    With our help arrangements have been completed for three vacant mill premises, two of them at Nelson, to be
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    taken over by firms from the South and these should give employment to about 1,400 persons.
    Mr. Green: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate how well received this news will be in an area too long dependent upon one item of manufacture for its employment? May I urge him not to rest on the laurels that he has just gained?
    Sir D. Eccles: Certainly. We have every intention of finding other firms to take over mill premises.

  SOUTHERN RHODESIA AND NYASALAND

    Detained Persons
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many British protected persons of Nyasaland are now detained without trial in Southern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, respectively; and when it is proposed that they should be released.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Julian Amery): My latest information is that, on 18th July, a total of 399 were still held in detention in Nyasaland. They will be released when the Governor is satisfied that they no longer constitute a threat to public order.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Will the Under-Secretary ask his right hon. Friend to release all men who have been cleared of disgraceful smears against them or bring charges against them in the courts, and, if it is not proposed to release these men, what further shabby excuses can be produced to keep them in detention?
    Mr. Amery: No, Sir, though my right hon. Friend will have overheard the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

  SEYCHELLES

    Development Plan
    Mr. P. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will now announce the new development plan for the Seychelles.
    Mr. J. Amery: I understand that the Seychelles Government will be publishing the plan in the near future.
    Mr. Williams: Will my hon. Friend give the House an assurance that the highest priorities in this plan will be accorded to the provision of improved housing, improved sanitation and improved education, and, if possible, that the development plan will include facilities for improved travel between both India and East Africa, on the one side, and the Seychelles on the other?
    Mr. Amery: I should not like here and now to commit the Seychelles Government on the priorities, but I am quite sure that the points referred to by my hon. Friend will figure in the plan.

  CYPRUS

    Discussions
    Mr. F. Noel-Bakerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when negotiations regarding the proposed sovereign British bases in Cyprus will be completed; what will be the national status of Cypriots living within the British sovereign areas; how many Cypriots will be affected; and where the frontiers between British and Cypriot sovereign areas will be drawn.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd): The discussions of the London Joint Committee are confidential, and I am sure that the hon. Member would not expect me to give information on these matters until the parties consider that it is appropriate to do so. I am not in a position to say when the discussions will be completed.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Is it not important that the British Government's point of view should be known and understood?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The machinery was set up by agreement between all the signatories to the London Agreement, and that machinery is now being properly used.

    Colonial Officials
    Mr. F. Noel-Bakerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Colonial officials from the United Kingdom will be retained in the administration in Cyprus after 31st July and 29th February next, respectively; how many are now employed in that administration; and what compensation or alternative
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    employment will be offered to the remainder.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: There are now 131 permanent officers, 282 (including 275 United Kingdom Police) on secondment and 219 on contract. By 31st July there will be 21 fewer. It is too soon to forecast with certainty the position after the transfer of power, but it seems likely that there will only be a few professional and technical officers remaining in the service of the Republican Government.
    With regard to compensation, I would refer the hon. Member to the documents which have been placed in the Library.
    The Overseas Service Resettlement Bureau will help in finding alternative employment, and those who wish for further employment in the overseas territories are being considered for appointments as and when vacancies arise.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, but will the Secretary of State bear in mind that, particularly in the case of some of the senior permanent officers, they are facing a very difficult future indeed? Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will do everything he can to help them in the most sympathetic possible way?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Yes. They, with whom I am in constant and close touch, know that very well.

  KENYA

    Makerere College (Students)
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that the Kenya Government decided to make a cut in the number of students going to Makerere University College without consulting the African Education Advisory Committee, and gave no opportunity to the African District Councils to finance further places at the College; and whether he will make a statement on the reasons for the adoption of this policy.
    Mr. J. Amery: In matters of this kind the Kenya Government seek the advice of the Advisory Council on High Education, which represents the interests of all races. This Council endorses the policy

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    of the Kenya Government, which aims at supporting the maximum number of students at both Makerere College and the Royal Technical College.
    The total new admissions to both Colleges of African students with full Government support is greater in the coming academic year than in any year in the past.
    The decision that African District Councils should no longer administer or grant bursaries for higher education in East Africa was part of a revision of financial relationships between the Kenya Government and the District Councils designed to provide a firm basis on which Councils can plan for a steady programme of development within the limits of their income and expenditure. The decision was approved by the Legislative Council.
    Regarding the reasons for reducing the number of entrants to Makerere College, I have nothing to add to my hon. Friend's reply to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) on 14th April.
    Mr. Johnson: Is not the Under-Secretary aware that Africans are willing to make almost any sacrifice for education? They believe that it is the key to their further advance. They believe that this whole matter was handled tactlessly by the Education Minister or Department, as the case may be. Is it not also a fact that the places at the Royal Technical College at Nairobi are more expensive than the other places at Makerere?
    Mr. Amery: There is no ground for believing that there was any tactless handling of this. It is important to ensure that the facilities at the Royal Technical College are fully used, as well as those at Makerere. If they were not fully used, the per capita expense would rise very sharply.
    Mr. P. Williams: Will my hon. Friend see if this cut can be restored at the earliest possible moment, because it will be a misfortune to education in Kenya if this cut is to be maintained? Will he give an undertaking that as soon as possible improved trade training and technical training will be given in Kenya to a larger number of people?
    Mr. Amery: The emphasis we are putting on the Royal Technical College
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    to some extent meets my hon. Friend's point. I also remind him of what I said in my original Answer, that the number of Africans going to both colleges in the coming year is greater than in any year in the past.

    Hola Camp
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what further action he has decided upon in connection with the Hola deaths, following the Report of the disciplinary tribunal.
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the disciplinary findings arising from the deaths of the 11 Africans at Hola Camp in Kenya.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Copies of the Command Paper containing the Governor's recommendations and my conclusions on the Report of the Disciplinary Inquiry will be available in the Vote Office later today.
    Mr. Robinson: Does not the right hon. Gentleman recall getting somewhat indignant last week at suggestions that the publication of this Report, which he has now had for more than three weeks, has been unduly delayed? If he is really anxious not to evade his responsibility to the House, will he please answer Question No. 36 now and tell us what action has been taken?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: No, Sir. I should have thought that even the hon. Member would have preferred to read the paper before asking questions about it.
    Mr. Brockway: Has the Colonial Secretary reconsidered his own position in relation to this matter, in view of the fact that he declined inquiries into these camps that might have prevented this tragedy; and that the coroner criticised both the Cowan Report and the misleading statements of the Kenya Government, for which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: If hon. Members opposite wish to debate this Report, no doubt they will have a chance to arrange it through the usual channels. As to any charges against myself, I have nothing to add to what I said on the matter yesterday.
    Mr. Callaghan: But why is the Colonial Secretary so coy about this? Why is he not ready now to tell us what action he is taking? It is, of course, possible for us all to read the Report, but is he still not aware—and by his grimaces he apparently is not—that this is one of the most serious charges that have ever been made? Does he not think that he owes it to the House of Commons now, if he has reached conclusions, to say what action he is taking in connection with these disciplinary charges?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: It is precisely because these are serious charges that I think that it would be most unwise to attempt to summarise the matter. The hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members can read the Report and challenge me on it as much as they like next week.
    Mr. Callaghan: This is really an impossible situation. Is the Colonial Secretary taking any action against any other officers arising out of the disciplinary inquiry against Messrs. Coutts and Sullivan, senior officers of the Administration? That is a simple question.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: All that will be shown in the paper, which will be available very shortly—today. It will contain the Report of the Disciplinary Inquiry, a Despatch from me to His Excellency the Governor, and two Despatches from him to me. It will be found that they cover the matter fully, and I think that the hon. Gentleman will be well advised to read them.

    Mr. Campbell
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is fully satisfied with the services of Mr. Campbell, Acting Deputy Commissioner of Prisons in Kenya; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Mr. Campbell has earned consistently good reports during his service with the Kenya Prisons Department. In so far as the hon. Member is referring to the notes Mr. Campbell prepared after returning from Hola on 4th March, I have no comment to make in advance of publication of the Command Paper, which will appear later today.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Will the Secretary of State look very seriously at the coroner's report? He must be aware that the coroner made quite strong comments on the evasions and falsehoods in Mr. Campbell's report of the 4th March, and as this report was confirmed by the Governor's meeting on the same day, does not this bring the whole Kenya administration into disrepute?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I have nothing to add to my Answer.

    Detention Camp Administration (Report)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he will publish the Fairn Committee's report on the administration of detention camps in Kenya.
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the report of the commission appointed to make recommendations as to the future administration of detention and prison camps in Kenya will be published.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Copies will be made available to Parliament as soon as the report is published in Kenya. This will be about the middle of August. The Fairn Committee discussed some of their principal recommendations with the Governor before they had completed their report, and an indication of these is contained in the Command Paper, which will be available later today.
    Mrs. White: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this report was in the hands of the Governor of Kenya on 7th July, and that what he said about the other reports is equally applicable to this one in that many Members of this House regard this as an important report on fundamental matters concerning these camps and feel that they should have a chance to question him and debate the matter before the House rises? Or is the right hon. Gentleman telling the House that he has been made so "punch drunk" by the other two reports that he cannot stand this one?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I can assure the hon. Lady that the last suggestion is not true. This report to the Governor of Kenya will be published along with the Governor's considered comments. It deals with long-term policy, and not

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    even to satisfy the hon. Lady can I overlook the fact that it demands serious consideration.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Why cannot the right hon. Gentleman arrange for its printing and publication in Kenya, in view of the fact that the report was presented to the Governor on 7th July?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: It will be printed in Kenya with the comments of the Governor of Kenya.

    School, Machakos
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what inquiry has been made into the recent disturbance at the boys' school at Machakos, Kenya; and with what result.
    Mr. J. Amery: An inquiry has been held by the school's Board of Governors. They decided that because of the inexcusable indiscipline of the pupils, the school should be closed until the September term; that the school prefects and form IV pupils should be expelled at once, although individual expulsions among the latter would be conditionally reviewed on application; and that the principal should be asked to submit proposals for improving discipline.
    Mrs. White: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the quality and numbers of the teaching staff are inadequate, and could something be done to deal with that situation?
    Mr. Amery: The inquiry did not suggest that this would be justified, and it certainly did not suggest that it justified a strike on the part of the pupils.

  NYASALAND

    Building Industry
    Mr. Pargiterasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken by the Government of Nyasaland to counteract unemployment in the building industry.
    Mr. J. Amery: Provision has been made for the coming year for the expenditure of £120,000 on African housing, £100,000 on loans to local authorities, and for the construction of administrative buildings and schools. The Government
    1506
    are now calling for contracts for works under these heads, which should do much to counteract unemployment in the building industry.
    Mr. Pargiter: Does the Under-Secretary consider this to be at all adequate, having regard to the fact that this is one of the industries in which artisans are being trained in the building industry, technical colleges and elsewhere? How unfortunate it would be if there were not adequate avenues of employment for them?
    Mr. Amery: I would never claim that it is enough, because targets and horizons in this are very high, but it is a substantial step and will do a good deal to counteract the current unemployment.
    Mr. Pargiter: Will the Minister keep a careful eye on this?

    Constitution
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will now make a statement upon the proposed changes in the Nyasaland Protectorate Constitution.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I would refer the hon. Member to my statement during the debate on Central Africa yesterday.
    Mr. Johnson: Although the information was extremely belated last night, nevertheless we on this side welcomed it. But can the right hon. Gentleman say why he said two things in particular last night? He said that there would have to be an increase in the number of official members. Why must he keep the officials more than the unofficials, which obviously means that the Africans will still continue in their somewhat minor position in the whole Legislative Council? Secondly, why did he say that he would not extend the life beyond May, 1960? Why did he fix that particular date?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: On the first point, I said that during the interim period it was important to preserve the official majority, and I still believe that to be true. In regard to the prolongation of the life of the Legislative Council, I said that I hoped that it would not be necessary for the prolongation to extend beyond one year. Those are the actual words I used.
    Mr. Callaghan: Can the Colonial Secretary say whether these nominations will be made by the Governor or by the African Provincial Councils?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: By the Governor.
    Mr. Callaghan: Why should that be so when the African Provincial Councils are now nominating the African members?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: In the present circumstances in Nyasaland it is clearly inappropriate for normal procedure to prevail, but I have clearly said that the intention is that it should be an interim period only, and in order that Africans may be associated with it during the interim period we have devised this machinery.

    Commission of Inquiry (Report)
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the findings of the Devlin Commission on the disturbances in Nyasaland.
    Sir R. Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when it is expected to publish the Devlin Report on Nyasaland.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The Report, together with a Despatch from the Governor, is being published this afternoon, and will be available in the Vote Office at 6 p.m. I would prefer to defer my comments until hon. Members have had an opportunity of reading both documents.
    Mr. Brockway: In view of the fact that these two Reports are to be published this afternoon and that the right hon. Gentleman declined to make any statement to the House itself before these Reports come out, would the right hon. Gentleman agree to say in this case whether the Devlin Commission has endorsed his charge of massacre and murder against Dr. Banda and his close associates, and, if it has not done so, will he again consider his position as Secretary of State for the Colonies?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I would advise the hon. Member to read both documents. One will take him about half an hour and the other one will take him between
    1508
    four and five hours. He will be better able to question me on both after he has read each of them.
    Mr. Callaghan: In view of the fact that the Colonial Secretary has had the Hola Camp Report since 1st July and the Devlin Commission's Report only a few days, is he publishing both of them together on the principle of trying to get all the bad news together in one day?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Certainly not. As the hon. Gentleman ought to know, as I have already told him, if he had been listening, the Hola Report will be published along with three Despatches which passed between the Governor of Kenya and myself. These despatches naturally take some time to work out and exchange. They cover very important matters, and it is pure coincidence that these Reports are ready together. I was very anxious to fulfil my responsibilities to the House that both would be published before the House rose.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA

    Secondary Industries
    Mr. Pargiterasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what proposals have been made by the Government of Northern Rhodesia to encourage secondary industries in the territory, in view of the warning given by Mr. John Roberts, a Member of the Executive Council, on 2nd June in Lusaka, that there was a danger of unemployment in the territory.
    Mr. J. Amery: The Government have set up a Ministerial Committee under the chairmanship of the Minister of Labour and Mines and consisting besides of the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Local Government and Social Welfare.
    The duty of the Committee will be to bring the claims of the territory before industrialists, to achieve closer liaison with the Federal Government and to form a link between the Federal Government and local authorities.
    Consideration is also being given to the extension of the activities of the Industrial Loans Board in the financial assistance provided to industries.
    Mr. Pargiter: While I am very glad to receive that assurance that some attention is being given to this problem, the Under-Secretary will be aware that a good deal of the prosperity of Southern Rhodesia in secondary industries at present has been based on the copper revenues which have been derived from Northern Rhodesia. Is it not time that some of those revenues were diverted so that they may enjoy the same stability in Northern Rhodesia?
    Mr. Amery: This seems to me at any rate to be a substantial argument in favour of the economics of federation.

    Mr. Kanyama Chiume
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies under what powers Mr. Kanyama Chiume, Member of the Nyasaland Legislative Council, was prohibited from entering Northern Rhodesia by the Governor of Northern Rhodesia; and whether this action had his prior consent.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Under Section 7 of the Northern Rhodesian Inter-Territorial Movement of Persons (Control) Ordinance. This Ordinance does not provide that my prior consent is necessary for making such an order.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Why was this order delivered by the Federal Administration? Has the Colonial Secretary taken any steps to assure himself that this is not another case of the Governor acting on false information?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: No, Sir. This is a matter which, as I have said, does not require my prior consent. The Territorial Government used the facilities of the Federal Government for the serving of this order.

  SOMALILAND

    Meetings (Ordinance)
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that Ordinance No. 1, 1959, issued at Hargeisa, Somaliland, on 5th March, gives power to any police officer not below the rank of assistant superintendent to enter any house or building where he has reason to believe that a meeting of an unlawful association is being held;
    1510
    and whether he will name the unlawful associations in respect of which this power has been used.
    Mr. J. Amery: Yes, Sir. So far as I am aware, this power has never been exercised, but I am awaiting confirmation from the Governor about this, and will write to the hon. Member as soon as I am able.
    Mr. Johnson: Has the hon. Gentleman attempted to find out the state of Somali public opinion about a Measure like this, which is highly unpopular? He says that it has never been used, but in view of next year's close association of the British Somalis with the Italian Somalis, is it not rather pointless to pass legislation of this kind against unnamed associations—allegedly illegal associations? Is it not rather futile?
    Mr. Amery: I have not heard of any strong reactions of public opinion, but that is not surprising, seeing that this power has never been exercised.

    Constitution
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what further progress has been in preparation for constitutional changes in Somaliland in 1960.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: There have been considerable developments recently, and as the matter is detailed I am circulating a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Sorensen: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether that Answer covers any repercussions that may occur in Ethiopia, and whether it also covers the possibility of bringing about some kind of amalgamation as between the various Somali territories?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: No, Sir. This is limited to the Somaliland Protectorate itself. I hope that there will be nothing in this to cause any distress outside.
    Following is the statement:
    The Commission on Constitutional Reform in the Protectorate which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State referred to in his statement in this House on 9th February has now reported and its report has just been published in the Protectorate. Its main recommendations are that the next Legislative Council should consist of 3 ex-officio members and 33 Somali members elected by all adult males in their constituencies. Voters in certain urban constituencies will be registered but those in rural constituencies will not and a

    1511
    special method of counting voters has been devised. On 21st July the Colonial Secretary gave notice of a motion in the Legislative 3Council accepting the recommendations of the Commission, subject to certain minor amendments. This is being debated by the Legislative Council this week, and when the Governor reports to me on the outcome I shall make a further statement.
    2. Meanwhile, the Somaliland Government has made the following announcement relating to the introduction of a Ministerial system.
    "Arrangements are now complete for the reorganisation of the machinery of Government to prepare for the introduction of a ministerial system when Ministers take office early next year. There will be seven Ministries, as follows: —

    1. Ministry of Defence and External Affairs,

    2. Ministry of Finance,

    3. Office of the Attorney-General,

    4. Ministry of Local Government,

    5. Ministry of Social Services,

    6. Ministry of Communications and Works,

    7. Ministry of Natural Resources.

    In the interim period between now and the appointment of Ministers, senior officials will be charged with the responsibility for the work of the Departments grouped within each Ministry. It is hoped that four elected members of the present Legislative Council will be associated with the work of the groups of Departments to be included in the following Ministries: —
    Ministry of Local Government,
    Ministry of Social Services,
    Ministry of Communications and Works,
    Ministry of Natural Resources."

  TANGANYIKA

    Sports Donation
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies for what projects the £25,000 recently given to further sport in Tanganyika by a private industrial concern will be used by the Government; and to what extent the Legislative Council has been consulted in any decision reached.
    Mr. J. Amery: An Appeals Committee set up by the Tanganyika Amateur Sports Federation and Olympic Games Committee has received a very generous donation of £20,000 from De Beers Consolidated Mines Ltd.
    The donors have expressed the wish that the greater part of the gift should go towards the cost of establishing a sports stadium in Dar es Salaam and the remainder towards the establishment of a fund to pay the expenses of visiting
    1512
    coaches and teams. Both these items are among the declared purposes of the Appeals.
    In these circumstances, the question of consulting the Legislative Council does not arise.
    Mr. Thomson: Whilst appreciating the generous nature of this gift, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman does not think that in regard to social expenditure of this size the Legislative Council should be consulted to see whether this kind of project fits in with the general social priorities of the country?
    Mr. Amery: I understand that the Legislative Council approved of the aims of the Appeals Committee, and, indeed, the Speaker and Mr. Nyerere are both members of that Committee. Therefore, as the donation is towards the fulfilment of one of the aims of the Committee, I do not think it is really necessary to go back to the Legislative Council about it.

    Expenditure
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in respect of the current Budget proposals for Tanganyika, what is the estimated amount of development expenditure during the coming financial year and the estimated expenditure on Government salaries; and how these sums compare with the expenditure during the previous financial year.
    Mr. J. Amery: The Tanganyika Budget does not show development expenditure separately, and no estimate is available for the amount of recurrent expenditure falling within this classification.
    Capital expenditure, of which most can be classed as development expenditure, for the financial year 1959–60, is estimated, in round figures, at £4 million, as compared with £6 million for 1958–59.
    Expenditure on salaries for 1959–60 is estimated at £8·3 million against £8·1 million for 1958–59.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the Budget debate Mr. Julius Nyerere, the Leader of the Elected Members, deplored the fact that this expenditure had been cut by about £2 million at a time when official salaries were going up, and suggested that there

    1513
    should be a cut in both African and European official salaries? Will he consult the Elected Members of the Legislative Council to see whether more money cannot be obtained for urgent development by means of economies in less essential expenditure?
    Mr. Amery: The cuts in capital expenditure reflect, mainly, a drop in primary commodity prices, and it is very difficult to overcome the implications of that. They also reflect, in some cases, the completion of certain large-scale projects. I do not think that it would be in the interests of the territory at this stage to reduce the quality of the technical assistance that they are receiving from their civil experts.

    African National Union (Proposals)
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what answer he has made to the proposals he has received from the Tanganyika African Union for constitutional changes involving elected majorities by the end of 1959 in both the Legislative and Executive Councils.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: None, Sir. These proposals were submitted by the Tanganyika African National Union to the Post-Elections Committee and to the Tanganyika Government and are still being considered.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these proposals are backed by all the Elected Members of all races? Will he bear in mind that the racial composition of Tanganyika is very similar to that of Nyasaland, and that Tanganyika is setting an example in building up a really multi-racial family and that it deserves every possible encouragement as quickly as possible from the Government?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I hope the hon. Gentleman will not forget that I have also been responsible for Tanganyikan affairs during the last five years.

    United Kingdom Teachers
    Mr. Malcolm MacPhersonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what arrangements exist for the seconding of teachers from the United Kingdom for service in primary and secondary schools in Tanganyika.
    Mr. J. Amery: Teachers appointed to Tanganyika can preserve their superannuation rights in this country, and it is possible for secondment to be agreed in individual cases by arrangement between the teacher and the employing authority in this country. This is dependent upon the authority being able to guarantee that a post will be available for the teacher on his return.
    Mr. MacPherson: Can the hon. Gentle- man say whether the existence of these arrangements is producing any large number of teachers going on secondment to Tanganyika? Will he also tell us whether this sort of thing is one of the topics which are now being discussed?
    Mr. Amery: I am afraid that I should want notice of those questions.

    Schools
    Mr. Malcolm MacPhersonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Government-aided schools have been built in Tanganyika in the last five years; in how many cases consultation took place with the local African populations about the sites; and what arrangements exist for undertaking such consultation as a normal procedure in the case of schools to be built in the future.
    Mr. J. Amery: I am consulting the Governor and will write to the hon. Member.
    Mr. MacPherson: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that leaders of African opinion ascribe to wrong siting of the schools the number of vacant places which the hon. Gentleman has frequently mentioned in this House? Will he make sure, whatever the outcome of the discussions with the Governor, that adequate consideration of siting will now take place?
    Mr. Amery: I will certainly look into that point.
    Mr. Malcolm MacPhersonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, how many children of primary school age there are in Tanganyika; how many of them attend bush schools; and what aid, financial or other, such schools receive from the Government.
    Mr. J. Amery: The latest estimate available indicates that there are about 850,000 African children of primary school age in Tanganyika. I am consulting the Governor on the other parts of the Question and will write to the hon. Member.
    Mr. MacPherson: In view of the fact that this represents such a very large proportion of the children of school age in Tanganyika, does not the hon. Gentleman feel that very direct and, indeed, very sizeable aid to these schools is desirable?
    Mr. Amery: There is already a good deal of aid going through the C.D. & W. channels.

  COLONIAL TERRITORIES

    Prestwick Pioneer Aircraft
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what results have so far been secured as a result of his efforts to have Prestwick Pioneer aircraft considered for use, where suitable, in the Colonial Empire; and what further steps he will take to ensure the sale of these aircraft in those Colonies for which they are particularly adapted.
    Mr. J. Amery: In January of this year my right hon. Friend drew attention of Colonial Administrations to the special characteristics of the Twin Pioneer Aircraft, but he has not as yet received information of the placing of any new orders in the Colonies. It rests with the Colonies themselves or the airlines based there to decide whether to place orders. My right hon. Friend will continue to keep them informed of developments in the design of Pioneer aircraft, with particular reference to features which affect their suitability for use in the Colonies.
    Sir T. Moore: Whilst appreciating to the full the willing help given in this matter by my right hon. Friend and those in his Department, may I ask them all to bear in mind that if substantial colonial orders could be given for this aircraft it might well save this gallant little company from extinction, and also avoid the dismissal and the hated redundancy of hundreds of skilled craftsmen?
    Mr. Amery: Having had some experience of the Twin Pioneer in tropical
    1516
    countries when I was at the War Office, I feel a great deal of sympathy with what my hon. Friend has just said.

    Financial Aid
    Mr. Royleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on what basis decisions are taken in regard to extra financial aid to Commonwealth and Colonial Territories, as in the recent cases of Malaya and Cyprus; and to what extent his Department is consulted.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The decisions are taken in the light of all relevant circumstances, including especially financial need, after consultation with the Government of the territory concerned. There is full interdepartmental consultation My Department takes the initiative in regard to territories for which it is responsible.
    Mr. Royle: Is it not a fact that, in the main, financial aid of this kind is based on defence rather than on other matters? For example, would not the right hon. Gentleman regard the present economic situation in the West Indies as being a case where extra financial aid should be provided, in addition to grants from C.D.C. and C.D. & W. funds in the usual way?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: No. Certainly, in apportioning C.D. & W. money, we do not take defence considerations into account, and the very large sums of money that are given to territories that have not at present any defence importance is an indication of that. I am fully conscious of the value of extending C.D. & W. grants in the West Indies, and that is being taken care of by the enlarged allocation for the forthcoming period.

    Sea Island Cotton
    Mr. Royleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what processing plants have been set up for the processing of sea island cotton during the years 1950 to 1959, inclusive; and what encouragement is being given by the United Kingdom Government in the development of this industry.
    Mr. J. Amery: I understand that no new ginneries have been completed in the sea island cotton growing Colonies

    1517
    in the period mentioned. One, however, is being completely re-equipped.
    In reply to the second part of the Question, the Central Cotton Station in Antigua is operated by the' Empire Cotton Growing Corporation and financed under a C.D. & W. scheme.
    Mr. Royle: Is not this one of those cases of an industry which is going through very depressing times and in which the Government should come in with emergency financial aid?
    Mr. Amery: Marketing is the problem at the present time. As I say, one ginnery has been completely re-equipped and this may help, but it will certainly not be a solution.

  UGANDA

    Buganda
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made in the settlement of political differences between Buganda and the Government of Uganda.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The Governor is continuing to explore ways of bringing about the early resumption of constitutional talks with the Buganda Government, and I am glad to say that His Highness the Kabaka made certain helpful references to the present disturbed state in Buganda in a speech to the Lukiko yesterday. If it should have the effect of ending the boycott and the disorders in Buganda, it might well be possible for local discussions to resume quite soon.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does that mean that the Kabaka himself has withdrawn the opposition which he has sustained hitherto?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman means by opposition. His Highness the Kabaka referred to the boycott, and it is to that part of his speech that I was referring.
    Mr. J. Dugdale: Would it not be helpful if the Governor were from time to time to see delegations representative of the people from Buganda? Could the right hon. Gentleman say why it was that he refused to see a delegation of women recently and had them turned away from Government House by the police?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: No Governor in my experience has been more accessible to people who want to see him than the present Governor of Uganda, but it must be left to him to decide whom he sees and when.

  WEST INDIES

    Citrus Industry
    Mr. Russellasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a further statement on the talks with the representatives of the West Indies citrus growers.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I have nothing at present to add to my reply on 16th July to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher).
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm whether or not the talks are continuing or whether they have, in fact, broken down? Can he give us some assurance about long-term contracts?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: They have certainly not broken down.

  CYPRUS
  Mr. P. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister which Ministers will visit Cyprus before Parliament reassembles; and for what purpose.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): None, Sir. The second part of the Question therefore does not arise.

  ATOMIC ENERGY (PROVINCIAL EXHIBITIONS)
  Mr. Masonasked the Prime Minister where the three provincial exhibitions, already planned, illustrating the uses of radio-isotopes in industry will be sited; and when they will take place.
  The Prime Minister: The Atomic Energy Authority informs me that the first of the three provincial exhibitions referred to in my reply to the hon. Member on 16th April will take place in Sheffield in November or December. The others will probably be in Bradford and Bristol early next year. Other towns may be visited later.
  Mr. Mason: While thanking the Prime Minister for that reply and appreciating that Sheffield is being recognised and is, in fact, getting the first exhibition, may I ask him if the Atomic Energy Authority has in mind a section within these exhibitions emphasising the need for observing safety precautions in the use of radio-isotopes and radioactive substances?
  The Prime Minister: I will take note of that point and see that it is considered by the Authority.
  Mr. W. R. Williams: In view of the fact that the first exhibition is to be in Yorkshire, would it not be very appropriate that the second should be in Lancashire, particularly in Manchester?
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Where was the research done?
  The Prime Minister: While I do not think that ancient rivalries should enter into these new and modern methods, I think we ought to keep a fair balance.

  SUMMIT CONFERENCE
  Mr. Woodburnasked the Prime Minister if he will now give an approximate limit to the preliminary discussions of the Foreign Secretaries' Conference; and when he now expects that the Summit Conference will take place.
  The Prime Minister: It would be unwise to suggest that we should set any time limit for the Foreign Ministers' Conference, but naturally we hope that the attitude of the Soviet Union will enable the Conference to come to a speedy and successful conclusion. Should this come about, the Foreign Ministers would no doubt also suggest an agreed date on which a Summit Conference might take place.
  Mr. Woodburn: Was it not always understood that Mr. Khrushchev intended that any real decisions should be made at the Summit Conference? Was it not also intended that this should be a preliminary conference of the Foreign Secretaries? Have there been any proposals put forward that would seem to meet the situation in Berlin and would make possible a further conference at the summit?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think I would add to the attainment of the purpose that I think we all have in mind by making any comment upon the present situation. I can only hope that the Foreign Ministers' Conference will lead to an agreed basis upon which a Summit Conference can be held.
  Mr. Gaitskell: In view of the confident hope which the Prime Minister has expressed several times that there will be a Summit Conference, will he say whether he thinks that there should be one in any event and whatever the outcome of the Foreign Ministers' Conference?
  The Prime Minister: We went into this in some detail in various debates, and my views have been well expressed. I do not think that I would add to the achievement of what I want by going any further today.

  SAHARA (NUCLEAR TESTS)
  Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what communications have been received from Colonial Territories and representatives urging that representations should be made to the French Government regarding the intention to test a nuclear bomb in the Sahara.
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The Governor-General of Nigeria informed me of a debate in the House of Representatives on 24th February and asked if this information could be conveyed to the French Government. I have had no other communications of this sort.
  Mr. Brockway: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the British Colonial Territories, particularly in West Africa, there is deep concern about these nuclear tests in the Sahara and their effects upon the population? In view of this, will he approach the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and ask him to raise this matter with the French Government?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: This information has naturally been conveyed. I hope the hon. Gentleman will do nothing that would ensure that some of the misleading influences that are drawn in Europe are now extended to Africa in consequence of tests of this kind. I would

  1521
  draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that the executive council of the French community has approved of the French Government's intentions.

  BRITISH GUIANA

    Shipping Services (Venezuela)
    Mr. Royleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what shipping lines operate from British Guiana to Venezuela, in view of the possibilities of mutual trade between the two territories.
    Mr. J. Amery: Saguenay Terminals Limited, a Canadian shipping company, operate a service from Canada to Georgetown in British Guiana which also calls at Maracaibo in Venezuela at approximately monthly intervals. The Royal Netherlands Steamship Company also operate a less frequent service between Georgetown and La Guaira.
    Mr. Royle: Is it not a fact that the transport arrangements in these territories are appalling, although promises of aid and improvement have been made for a long time? Cannot something be done about the transport between the various islands?
    Mr. Amery: As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, air communications have greatly improved and I had an opportunity of experiencing this myself in the last few months. I agree that there is still room for considerable improvement in sea traffic.

  BAHAMAS

    House of Assembly Representatives (Out Islands)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what proposals he has made concerning an increase or decrease of seats for representatives of the Out Islands in the Bahamas House of Assembly.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: None, Sir.
    Mrs. White: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that certain proposals have been made which might have the effect of increasing the representation of some of the Out Islands which are already over-represented? Will he assure the House
    1522
    that he will not be influenced by a report in a local newspaper that the Out Island voters have shown themselves to be in a great majority conservative by tradition?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: No, I will not be influenced by that suggestion, however tempting it might be at this time. I found out for myself when I made a careful study on the spot that matters of this kind cannot be settled by arithmetical considerations alone.

  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Civil Defence (Manuals)
    Mr. P. Noel-Bakerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will publish in a single volume available to the general public at a cheap price the following Manuals prepared by Her Majesty's Government for Civil Defence workers and Service Departments Home Office, Volume I, Pamphlet No. 1, Nuclear Weapons, 1956, Medical Manual of Chemical Warfare, 4th Edition, 1955, issued by Her Majesty's Stationery Office for the Admiralty, War Office and Air Ministry, Fire Research Bulletin No. 1, Fire and the Atomic Bomb, Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, 1954, and Manual on Biological Warfare, Home Office.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): No, Sir. Although no restriction has ever been placed on the sale of these manuals, they are designed for those who need to make a close study of the subject, and, quite apart from questions of price, they are too detailed to be suitable for general reading. The facts about nuclear weapons are summarised in non-technical language for the general reader in "The Hydrogen Bomb" published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office, price 9d.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Will the Home Secretary consider making available similar popular papers about biological, chemical, incendiary and other weapons of mass destruction now being prepared?
    Mr. Butler: I do not think I can add to my statement, but I am always ready to examine anything that the right hon. Gentleman puts before me.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: May I press the Home Secretary? It is really desirable that the public should have some knowledge of the kind of warfare now being prepared.
    Mr. Butler: Yes, and that is why we published this particular document. Some of the language in the documents to which the right hon. Gentleman refers is really unsuitable for the public to understand. I am unable to understand it myself.

CASEMENT DIARIES
The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. HYDE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now make a statement on the diaries of Sir Roger Casement.
Mr. EMRYS HUGHES: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the nature of the difficulties which now prevent him from placing the Casement diaries in the Library; and if he will make a statement before the rising of the House for the summer Recess.
Mr. DU CANN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now make a statement regarding the Casement Diaries; whether he will permit members of the public to inspect the originals; whether he will place a copy of the originals in the Library of the House of Commons; to whom the copyright belongs; and what consultations have taken place with the Government of Eire and the executors and trustees of the late Sir Roger Casement's estate.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): I will, with permission, now answer Questions Nos. 78, 80 and 103 together.
The Casement Diaries consist of five volumes found in a trunk which the landlord of Casement's lodgings in London handed to the police at their request on 25th April, 1916, two days after Casement had arrived in London under arrest. The Diaries were retained in Scotland Yard until 1925, since when they have been in the Home Office.
For some thirty years, successive Home Secretaries have refused to give any
1524
information about, or access to, the diaries. The position has been altered by the publication of the greater part of them abroad; and I have now placed them in the Public Record Office. Under Section 5 (1) of the Public Records Act, 1958, the Lord Chancellor has prescribed 100 years as the period during which they are not to be available for public inspection. As, however, they are of some historical interest I shall be prepared, under Section 5 (4) of the Act, to give facilities for the examination of the diaries to historians, other responsible persons who have made a study of Casement's life, and persons qualified to express an informed opinion on their authenticity. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a brief description of the five volumes and of the arrangements for obtaining authority to study them.
I shall be very ready to consider applications from hon. Members who satisfy the criteria to which I have referred to examine the diaries in the Public Record Office.
The Government do not claim to hold the copyright of the diaries and it is not for me to say to whom it belongs.
Persons authorised to see the diaries will be warned that if they make any extracts from the diaries they will publish them at their own risk, having regard to the law of copyright and of obscenity.
There have been confidential consultations with the Irish Ambassador, and I have considered representations from the executors of Casement's last surviving executor and from solicitors representing the residuary legatees of his sole legatee.
Mr. Hyde: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that his reply will give considerable satisfaction to many people who have been disturbed by the official policy of silence and secrecy, which, as he himself has said, has prevailed for over thirty years and which has, of course, given the unfortunate impression that successive Governments have had something to hide? Will it be possible for photographs or photographic reproductions to be made by approved members of the public of certain pages of the diaries the authority or authenticity of which has been doubted for comparison with known specimens of Casement's handwriting which are already acknowledged as genuine?
Mr. Butler: No, Sir; I think that that would be difficult because, apart from the fact that the publication in books or articles of some parts of the diaries might render the author concerned liable to proceedings under the law relating to obscenity, the copyright of the diaries does not appear to belong to the Crown, and the supply of copies might result in infringement of copyright.
Mr. H. Morrison: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the announcement he has made leaves the House rather mystified, because, on the one hand, he appears to have given some partial release to the diaries, and, on the other hand, he has surrounded it by so many conditions and restrictions that either he had better release them altogether or he had better not release them at all? Is he not asking for trouble when he says that hon. Members who qualify under his definition may see the diaries and others may not? Is he aware that there is no hon. Member in the House who would confess that he has no sense of historical perspective?
Mr. Butler: I defer to the wisdom of one of my predecessors as Home Secretary, but I think that the arrangements we have made, considering the character of the diaries, of which the right hon. Gentleman must be well aware, are the best possible in the circumstances. As I believe that hon. Members will find, if they are definitely interested, that they qualify, I have no very great anxiety about either the opportunity available or the perspicacity of hon. Members.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Home Secretary aware that, for many years now, a very large section of public opinion in Ireland, in America and throughout the rest of the world has believed that the obscene passages were forged? Could he tell us what his opinion of that is? Also, will he tell us why these records are not to be sent where they should belong, to Ireland?
Mr. Butler: We regard them as public records and, therefore, we are sending them to the Public Record Office. We believe them to be authentic. They have been examined by a handwriting expert. They were examined by Dr. Wilson Harrison, Director of the South Wales and Monmouthshire Forensic Science
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Laboratory, who, after comparing the handwriting of the diaries for 1910 and 1911 and the ledger with that in documents attributed to Casement in Foreign Office and Home Office files, concluded that there was ample evidence to show that all the entries in the diaries and the ledger were made by the same hand as the documents in the files.
Sir G. Nicholson: Can my right hon. Friend elucidate what appears to be the mystery of how diaries which have been in the care of the British Government for over forty years have been published in Paris?
Mr. Butler: There are copies of the diaries in Dublin, which probably accounts for their publication abroad.
Mr. E. Fletcher: Will the Home Secretary explain by what right he claims to try to discriminate between one hon. Member and another as to who should have the right to inspect the diaries?
Mr. Butler: I believe that there is great wisdom in the Home Office and that it would be possible, I think, to discriminate. Also, I doubt whether hon. Members, after a certain time, will be falling over one another to see the diaries.
Mr. Gordon Walker: I welcome the measures which will make the diaries more accessible, but will the Home Secretary consider again whether access to them should be quite so hedged about? Also, can he explain how a document in the possession of the Home Office came to be copied so that copies were available in Dublin?
Mr. Butler: The particular copies or versions in Dublin, which I have not seen, never came anywhere near the Home Office, and I do not know at all. There have been copies in Dublin and, presumably, that was the source from which the copies published in Paris came.
Following is the information:
The Casement diaries comprise the following:

(1) a field service note book containing a few jottings apparently relating to Casement's service in the Congo in 1901 and 1902;

(2) a Letts' pocket diary and almanack for 1903;

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(3) a Dollard's office diary for 1910;

(4) a Letts' desk diary for 1911;

(5) a ledger containing accounts and notes relating to dates in 1911.

The arrangements for giving access to the diaries are intended to facilitate the serious study of the diaries and, particularly, of their authenticity. Applications for authority should be made in writing to the Under-Secretary of State, Room 208, Home Office, Whitehall, and not to the Public Record Office, and should indicate the qualifications of the applicant and the purpose for which he wishes to have access to the diaries.
The facilities for inspecting the diaries will be available from 10th August. Persons authorised to examine the diaries will also be authorised to examine for purposes of comparison certain Foreign Office papers in the Public Record Office which contain manuscript documents written by Casement in 1903. 1910 and 1911.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Botler): Yes, Sir The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 27TH JULY—Committee and Third Reading of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill.
The Opposition have chosen the following subjects for debate.
Consumer Protection.
The Hola Report and Illegal Detentions.
Defence.
Industrial Health Conditions.
TUESDAY, 28TH JULY—Debate on the Nyasaland Commission of Inquiry.
Motion to approve the Import Duties (Various Goods) Order.
Committee and remaining stages of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Bill [Lords]; and the Colonial Development and Welfare Bill [Lords], which is a consolidation Measure.
It is proposed to give facilities for the Consideration of the Lords Amendments to the Legitimacy Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 29TH JULY—Debate on the Report and Accounts of the British Transport Commission and on the Plan
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for the Modernisation and Re-equipment of British Railways.
THURSDAY, 30TH JULY—It is proposed to meet at Eleven a.m.
Questions will be taken until Twelve noon, and at Five o'clock Mr. Speaker will adjourn the House without putting any Question.
Adjourn for the Summer Recess.
At the end of business already announced for tomorrow, Friday, we shall ask the House to take the Second Reading of the Colonial Development and Welfare Bill [Lords], which is a consolidation Measure.
Mr. Gaitskell: Will the right hon. Gentleman announce the date in the autumn when the House will meet again?
Mr. Butler: As I think is customary, I propose to announce that early next week.
Mr. Hirst: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether his attention has been drawn to the Motion standing on the Order Paper in my name relating to compensation for compulsory purchase? I wonder whether my right hon. Friend knows this sad story and that the life of one man concerned with the property in question has already been shortened. Bearing in mind what happened to Mr. Pilgrim and the lack of time for debate, will my right hon. Friend personally interest himself in the matter, or even be willing to see me upon it?
[That this House views with very grave concern the refusal of the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs to take any steps to remedy or alleviate an injustice to one of Her Majesty's subjects notwithstanding the clearest possible evidence repeatedly advanced that part of his premises situated in Bingley, Yorkshire, to be acquired compulsorily under the appropriate Acts, is and has been always shop property, but is to be compensated by his actions only nominally as housing unfit for habitation; and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to take such steps whether by legislation or otherwise to remedy this wrong forthwith.]
Mr. Butler: I have read the Motion of my hon. Friend and I am aware of his difficulty and of the difficulty of the case. I would certainly be prepared to

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see him about it if he so desires, but I cannot undertake to give time to debate the Motion before we rise.
Mr. Ernest Davies: Has the Leader of the House seen the Motion on the Order Paper, Trunk Roads (Minister's Speech), which has been signed by well over 100 right hon. and hon. Members? In view of the deplorable behaviour of the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation in attacking a Select Committee of the House outside its precincts, will the right hon. Gentleman find time to debate the matter, so that the Minister can explain his behaviour?
[That this House, having noted the speeches of the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation at Hendon and Stamford on 21st July, in which he commented adversely on the First Report from the Select Committee of Estimates (Trunk Roads) and described their inquiries as cursory, deprecates his discourtesy in so acting before making a statement in the House or submitting to the Select Committee any observations on their Report.]
Mr. Butler: I entirely repudiate the reflections on my right hon. Friend. My right hon. Friend, in so far as questions of good manners towards the Select Committee are concerned, has already expressed his own regret to the Select Committee, and I think that that indicates a proper attitude on his part. There will not be time to discuss the matter before we rise.
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will spend some of his summer holiday driving on some of the roads.
Mr. H. Morrison: May I suggest that the Leader of the House take this matter a little more seriously? Is he aware that the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation has not apologised to the Select Committee? He has said that if the Committee is offended he is sorry. That is another matter. But is there not a perfectly well established procedure, when a Select Committee reports to the House, for the Government to have the opportunity to reply on financial matters to the Select Committee in a proper manner and, if they so wish, to have their reply published? I put my own name to this Motion with some regret, because it is a pity that this kind of thing should happen.
Mr. Nabarro: The right hon. Gentleman should have sent a telegram.
Mr. Morrison: May I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman tries gently to persuade the Minister to "come clean" with an apology, and then the incident can be forgotten?
Mr. Butler: My right hon. Friend's intention was to express his regret to the Select Committee. As I understand, the right hon. Gentleman does not think that that is a sufficient expression of regret. No doubt there are other methods of replying to the Select Committee, and if I can discuss the matter with my right hon. Friend I shall be only too glad to do so, because I know that he does not wish in any way to insult the honour or dignity of a Select Committee of this House.
Mr. Tilney: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he has looked again at the Motion calling attention to the plight of ex-colonial civil servants and whether he is aware that those who have gone abroad are now treated less favourably than those who have stayed at home?
[That this House draws the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the wide differences between pension scales paid to retired colonial civil servants by Her Majesty's Government and those paid by certain Governments of both dependent and independent territories within the Commonwealth; and urges Her Majesty's Government to use its influence with the Governments of the territories whose scales of pensions fall below present standards to make compensating increases.]
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I am aware of the Motion, but at this stage of the Session I cannot give any time to discuss it.
Mr. C. R. Hobson: Is the Leader of the House aware that he is completely misinformed about the apology of the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation? As Chairman of the Select Committee, Sub-Committee F, may I say that no apology has been received by my Committee, neither has there been a written apology to the full Committee on Estimates, which met as recently as 4 o'clock yesterday? Will the right hon. Gentleman do something about it?
Mr. Butler: I did not say that an apology had been sent to Sub-Committee F or to the main Committee. I said that my right hon. Friend had made an expression of regret, and I said in reply to the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) that I would discuss with my right hon. Friend whether it could be put through more orthodox channels than has been done already. We must not exaggerate this matter. My right hon. Friend was submitted to considerable criticism. He has been responsible for a very fine forward programme, and he undoubtedly felt somewhat put out by the criticisms. I have undertaken to discuss the matter of apology with him, and I am sure that hon. Members will not wish to press the point any further.
Mr. Gaitskell: Whatever may be the merits of the dispute or apparent dispute between the Minister and the Select Committee, would not the Leader of the House agree that it is most inappropriate for Ministers to speak in this way outside the House about the Report of a Select Committee? Does the right hon. Gentleman really feel that this half-hearted apology, or so-called apology, made in this House is adequate? Would it not be far better for the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to write a letter of apology to the Chairman of the Select Committee on Estimates? I feel sure that if that were done my hon. Friends and members of the Committee would be satisfied.
Mr. Butler: I am not prepared to go further today than to say that I will consider the point put to me by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South and the point put to me by the Leader of the Opposition, but I think that it would be a great mistake to underestimate the expression of regret made by my right hon. Friend in the House. To say that that is totally inadequate, when we know that he intended to express his regret, is to exaggerate the affair to too great an extent.
Sir G. Nicholson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this incident calls attention to the state of affairs which can sometimes be unsatisfactory, in that when a report of a Select Committee on Estimates is published it comes out at, say, 11 o'clock in the morning and is
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seized on by the Press, who in this case, hardly took the trouble to read it and produced an absolute travesty of it?
Mr. C. R. Hobson: That is not true. Read the Report.
Sir G. Nicholson: It is most unfair on the Minister in question, whatever Minister it may be, who has to pursue the lies after the lies have started.
Mr. Hobson: That is not true.
Sir G. Nicholson: The Minister has to pursue a caricature of a professed Report which is biassed and unbalanced. Cannot something be done about the matter?
Mr. Butler: I think that it is true to say that the Press version was somewhat abbreviated, but I would not be ready to accept totally the description of my hon. Friend. I think that we had better leave the matter as I have said, namely, that my right hon. Friend was suitably contrite. He was also suitably indignant. I have undertaken to examine whether anything more can be done.
Mr. Mulley: Would the Leader of the House consider suggesting to his right hon. Friend that he seeks permission to make a statement after Questions next week so that hon. Members on both sides of the House can put the Report in its proper perspective?
Mr. Butler: I do not think that I can carry the matter any further than I have said in answer to the Leader of the Opposition and to the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South.
Sir A. V. Harvey: Will my right hon. Friend recommend to the party opposite that it directs its views towards Nottingham and obtains an apology from that quarter?
Sir G. Benson: I do not know whether it would be in order to revert to the matter of Sir Roger Casement, but may I ask the Home Secretary whether he is aware that we have had a copy of the diaries in the Library?
Mr. Butler: I was aware that there was a copy of what is called the "Black Book" in the Library, but that book does not contain all the material that is going to the Public Record

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Office. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the exact nature of the material that is to be put in the Public Record Office. It can then be compared with the "Black Book".

FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION (STOCKHOLM DISCUSSIONS)
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Derick Heathcoat Amory): I will, with your permission Mr. Speaker, now make a statement about the Stockholm discussions.
The Paymaster-General and I attended a meeting at Stockholm on 20th and 21st July to which, together with Austrian, Danish, Norwegian, Portuguese and Swiss Ministers, we had been invited by the Swedish Government. As the House knows, this meeting was called to consider whether these seven countries should set up a Free Trade Association among themselves. The object of such an association would be to create a single market of nearly 90 million people by abolishing tariffs and other barriers to trade. Our partners in this group enjoy a high standard of living. Their imports amount to over £3,000 million a year. Freedom of trade within this group must help us all to increase our production, raise our standard of living and maintain full employment.
We decided unanimously at the Stockholm meeting to recommend to our Governments that such an Association should be created. A Convention is to be drafted, and we hope that this will be ready for submission to Governments by the end of October. We aim to establish the new Association in time for the first tariff reduction to take place on 1st July, 1960.
The draft plan for a European Free Trade Association which we had before us was made public in Stockholm last night and, for the convenience of hon. Members, I am arranging for this, together with the agreed statement with which we concluded our meeting, to be published as a White Paper as soon as printing can be completed. I hope that this can be done by next Monday afternoon.
It was agreed that there should be a special agreement on agriculture, setting
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out the agreed objectives on agriculture and food policy, providing for consultation where appropriate, and designed to facilitate expansion of trade between members, having regard to the need to achieve a sufficient degree of reciprocity between them. This objective is satisfied in the case of the United Kingdom by the terms of the bilateral agreement which we have made with Denmark.
There will be further discussions on fish and fish products. The draft plan sets out in detail the proposals made by the Norwegian Government and the position taken by other delegations to them. The United Kingdom made clear that it could not contemplate removing the tariff on fresh or frozen fish. But we said that if there were an agreement on fish generally satisfactory to us we would be prepared to treat preserved and processed fish—broadly, canned fish and fish meal—as industrial products.
The purposes of Her Majesty's Government in taking part in this decision to set up a European Free Trade Association were broadly two. In the first place, these arrangements will be advantageous in their own right to the United Kingdom and to all the other members. The Ministers meeting at Stockholm were unanimous in their conviction on this. Secondly, we, and all the other Governments, believe that this is the best way to advance towards a single European market, free of tariffs and other restrictions.
We have repeatedly indicated the importance we all attach to a Europe-wide agreement for freer trade. The detailed arrangements—as will be seen when the White Paper is published—have been shaped to facilitate subsequent negotiations with our partners in O.E.E.C., both the members of the European Economic Community and those who are members neither of the Community nor of the new Association. We have made arrangements for the question of relations with other members of O.E.E.C. to be kept under continuous review; we have each of us indicated our desire to accredit representatives to the Community.
On many occasions, this House has indicated the widespread support there is for trading and economic arrangements which will embrace the Six and all other members of O.E.E.C., I can

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assure the House that all the Governments with whom we have been negotiating at Stockholm hold this view no less strongly.
I am confident that this agreement at Stockholm this week will prove to be a historic step forward in European economic co-operation, both in its immediate purposes and in the prospects it opens for the future.
Mr. H. Wilson: Is the Chancellor aware that we on this side very much welcome the agreement, not least because the suggestion for this Outer Seven agreement first came from these benches? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is on the record; 20th November, 1958, column 1318, if hon. Members wish to look it up. Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that we welcome the fact that, as far as we can understand from his statement, this is to be a commonsense trading agreement on O.E.E.C. lines without being subjected to too many supranational authorities and bodies of that kind, and that we very much welcome the method of association?
Are we to understand from the references made by the Chancellor to the other parts of Europe that the Government will continue with all possible vigour to do what can be done by arrangement, both bilaterally and with the Community, to ensure that there is the minimum possible discriminatory damage to British export trade in the area of the Economic Community?
Mr. Amory: I appreciate the welcome given by the right hon. Gentleman. I assure him that our wish and the wish of all our partners in this area is that the institutional machinery should be kept as simple as possible. There was absolute agreement about that. Secondly, I assure the right hon. Gentleman that on the part of the United Kingdom no opportunity will be lost of ensuring that any discrimination which arises from the Treaty of Rome as at present drafted shall be kept to the absolute minimum.
Mr. Bellenger: The right hon. Gentleman will realise that, rather late in the day, what the Government have done is to succeed in dividing Europe into two parts, the Seven and the Six. It is not entirely their own fault, I agree. As
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however, the Chancellor told me recently, when I put a Question to him, that the Government would take the initiative in trying to arrange a wider area than the limited one which he has just announced, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman what definite steps Her Majesty's Government propose to take to call the Six and the Seven together, rather than leaving it to bilateral trading agreements?
Mr. Amory: The view put by the right hon. Gentleman that this action creates a division in Europe is not one with which I could agree. As far as that has happened, it has happened through actions other than this. As I said, our hope and intention is to ensure that, on the contrary, this should be a bridge and not a source of division within the O.E.E.C.
In reply to the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, the way that we and our partners envisage the future would be that, first, we must get our arrangements completed. As soon as that has been done, no opportunity will be missed by members of the organisation to try to see that negotiations are resumed. As a matter of practical politics, the timing should be, first, to get our arrangements clear so that we can see how they may be dovetailed in with the arrangements of the European Economic Community and then to lose no opportunity of pursuing such negotiations. It would, however, be impossible at this stage to foresee exactly the kind of negotiations for which there will be an opportunity.
Sir H. Oakshott: While welcoming warmly my right hon. Friend's assurances regarding his intention to widen the agreement to cover the whole of the membership of O.E.E.C., may I ask him this question? As Finland is not a member of O.E.E.C., does my right hon. Friend see any risk in the widening of the Association to cover the whole of O.E.E.C. if Finland joined the new Outer Seven?
Mr. Amory: It would be quite premature to form a view on the point raised by my hon. Friend. The Finnish Government have explained to us in Stockholm that at this stage they could not foresee whether it would be possible for them to have some form of association with our

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Association and, if so, how close it would be It was for that reason that it was agreed at their request that Finnish representatives should be afforded facilities to keep in touch with the measures that we and our partners would be taking to draw up our convention and then they will tell us in due course what opportunities they see and what form of association they would like to have. Then it would be for our partners and for ourselves to decide whether such form of association would be possible and desirable. We, and, indeed, all our partners, welcome the interest that the Finnish Government have shown in our plans.
Mr. T. Williams: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to see that when agricultural questions are discussed the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, or his representative, will always be available for those discussions if special arrangements are to be made? Can he guarantee to the House that an ex-Minister of Agriculture who is now the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Paymaster-General, and the President of the Board of Trade will not be too unkind towards the Minister of Agriculture?
Mr. Amory: Yes, I most gladly give that assurance. I think that I can also assure the right hon. Gentleman that, from my experience, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture will not allow me to move many steps forward without his close attendance on me.
Sir J. Hutchison: The right hon. Gentleman for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) has already expressed the welcome with which this announcement will be received by members of the party opposite. Is he aware that the successful outcome of what must have been extremely difficult and delicate negotiations will be welcomed in a much wider area than merely the benches opposite, perhaps in a wider area than even this country?
Mr. Amory: I should like to say that, as usual, we feel extremely grateful for the very great ability with which our officials have participated in the negotiations over recent years, and, if I may personally say so, the great skill with which my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General has presided over their discussions.
Mr. Chetwynd: To ensure closest cooperation between the Seven, on the one hand, and the Common Market countries, on the other, before the formal setting up of the treaty and the subsequent negotiations, is it intended to invite a representative of the Six to be an observer while these negotiations are going on?
Mr. Amory: No, but special arrangements have been made whereby the Official Committee will be keeping under continuous review any opportunities of reopening negotiations with the Six, and every opportunity will be taken to ensure that the Six are kept fully informed of the way our plans are developing. I think that is the most that we can do at this stage. I should also like to refer to what I mentioned in my statement, that each country at the conference wished to accredit a representative to the European Economic Community.
Mr. Patrick Maitland: Reverting to the fishier aspects of this project, can my right hon. Friend elucidate his remarks about fish products being treated as industrial products, bearing in mind the Scottish interest in this matter, namely, the production of fish meal, and, secondly, the United Kingdom imports of Canadian canned salmon? Can he say how far these arrangements might lead to increased competition either with home production or Commonwealth production in that field?
Mr. Amory: I think that any arrangement for providing for the removal of tariffs and for free trade are extremely likely to accentuate competition. In this case it is limited, but in accordance with the broad division of categories that we have adopted it has been thought right, as part of a general satisfactory settlement on the fishing side, to treat canned fish and fish meal as an industrial product. I think that that fits sensibly into the categories which are generally being applied in this context.
Mrs. White: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether the term "agriculture" includes forestry? Is he aware that there is concern in Wales, where the rural areas are increasingly dependent on forestry, at the possible outcome of any agreement with the Scandinavian countries?
Mr. Amory: No. Timber is included, and always has been, in these free trade discussions as an industrial and not an agricultural product.
Mr. Turton: Can my right hon. Friend say whether this agreement makes any arrangement for expanding Commonwealth export trade to the countries concerned?
Mr. Amory: Not directly, because the Commonwealth countries are not participants in this plan. We hope that the effect of the plan will be to contribute towards a general rise of the level of prosperity and, therefore, the level of trade within Europe; and if that is the result, I would hope that indirectly it would benefit Commonwealth trade.
Mr. H. Wilson: Further to the question of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), which I think all of us will feel is very practical and realistic, would the Chancellor study for the future the development of this and put our trading partners on notice of the proposal we made on this side of the House on 12th February last, when we suggested that there should be, quite apart from this proposal, a closer identification of the Commonwealth with the outer Free Trade Area, not necessarily excluding exchange of materials and Commonwealth Preference?
Mr. Amory: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman that what was said on 12th February is not as prominent in my mind at the moment as I would wish. I will refresh my memory on that point. I should like to say that, in general, we have kept the Commonwealth countries continuously in touch with every move we have made on this front and shall continue to do so.
Mr. Bonham Carter: Will the right hon. Gentleman help me with two points? First, will the arrangements being made between the Outer Seven make it impossible for any individual member of the Outer Seven to make an approach to the Six with a view to joining the Community? Secondly, in view of the very great importance of the subject which his statement raises, will it be possible to debate this matter at greater length before the House goes into recess?
Mr. Amory: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's first question has
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arisen. As far as I know, no member of the Seven is contemplating an approach to become a member of the Six in the present circumstances. If it did so, that member would have to show how far its obligations would conflict. I would expect that they would conflict.
The second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, is, of course, a matter for the House.
Mr. M. Clark Hutchison: Can my right hon. Friend say what protection there is in these arrangements for the home paper industry, particularly the paper industry in Scotland?
Mr. Amory: The effect of this would, of course, be that if the arrangements mature there would be a gradual removal over ten years of the tariff protection which the paper industry enjoys. I would say there that there will be rules dealing with fair competition and equality of access to raw materials, and I would not think that the resulting competition would be beyond the capacity of our paper industry to meet.
Mr. Roy Jenkins: Will the Chancellor keep in mind that although seven is a greater number than six, that is a very inadequate substitute for arrangements with the Six, partly because the population is only one-quarter and partly because these are already low-tariff countries and, therefore, entry into their markets is less valuable than entry into the high-tariff countries' markets? If this is to be a bridge for arrangements with the Six, the arrangements must be put through quickly, because nothing could be worse for British industry than to adjust itself for arrangements with the Seven and have to re-adjust itself to an entirely different arrangement in the future?
Mr. Amory: I see the importance of the point which the hon. Gentleman has raised. I hope that the House will not get the impression that I regard this as a substitute, as it were, for the wider association. I look on it as a step towards a wider association. In the meantime, I should like to emphasise that, in our opinion, this proposed Association is perfectly viable and likely to be beneficial to this country and all the other members of the Seven by itself.

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We are endeavouring to shape our arrangements so that it would be as feasible as possible to make a transition to a wider association without frustration of the steps that may already have been taken.
Mr. Nabarro: Did my right hon. Friend remember to mention in Stockholm that we have 30 million tons of surplus coal that we should like to sell in those traditional markets? Can we now gel on with the coal debate, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Hamilton: To pursue the question of the paper industry——
Mr. Nabarro: May I have an answer, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Nabarro: On a point of order. My point of order, Mr. Speaker, is to inquire what is the Motion before the House? Are we on the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill yet?
Mr. Speaker: The answer to the hon. Gentleman's last question is, "Certainly not." I am waiting to see if I can get there, but I think that when a statement of this length and importance is made it is necessary to allow a certain number of questions. I am sorry if the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) is getting impatient. I cannot get impatient as easily as that.
Mr. Hamilton: Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer aware that there are very grave apprehensions in the paper industry, particularly in Scotland, about the outcome of these negotiations? Can he say what new steps and policies the Government intend to initiate, in the event of the paper industry losing its competitive position, to safeguard the employment of the people who might thereby be thrown out of work?
Mr. Amory: I did say, I think, that it is premature at this stage to forecast what the additional competition the paper manufacturing industry may have to meet will amount to. But there are provisions in the plan for certain steps which could be taken which would be appropriate where disastrous consequences affected a particular industry.
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I must say that it was envisaged that such provisions would be only very exceptionally used, but they relate to the point where the effects on a particular industry might be disastrous from the national point of view, in the form of consequences on employment.
Mr. Speaker: The Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.
Mr. J. Hynd: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw your attention to the fact that on numerous occasions during the past eight or nine months representations have been made to the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House that there should be a debate on these developments of the Common Market and the rest before any definite steps were taken, and that we have been promised over and over again that there would be?
In these circumstances, may we now ask that a debate be held before anything further is done? Many of us feel, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) does, that all is not quite as nice as it looks. Much of the policy behind this represents the attitude of mind of Members like the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), who is not interested in these things but wants to get on with any subject in which he is particularly interested, irrespective of its importance.
Mr. Nabarro: Further to that point of order——
Mr. Speaker: It was not a point of order. The agreement is still in a very incomplete stage. As I understand, nothing has been definitely concluded yet. There will be plenty of opportunity for the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) to make a speech on the subject at a later stage. I understand that the first tariffs are not to be removed till 1960.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL
Read a Second time and committed to a Committee of the whole House.
Committee Tomorrow.

COAL INDUSTRY
4.15 p.m.
Mr. Alfred Robens: I beg to move,
That this House regrets the failure of Her Majesty's Government to plan the place of the coal industry in the national economy.
The chairman of the National Coal Board and the noble Lord, Viscount Hall, in another place, described the present coal situation as grim. The chairman of the National Union of Mine-workers described the situation as hopeless. The Minister of Power, in another place, said that neither of those terms was accurate and that he thought that the situation was neither grim nor hopeless, but anxious. Whatever adjective we care to apply to the present situation, no one would deny that it is an extremely serious situation, and it would have been quite wrong for the House to have risen for the Summer Recess without turning its attention for some time at least to one of the biggest employing industries in this country.
The situation in the coal industry is changing from month to month. Demand was about 20 million tons less between 1956 and 1958, and in the first six months of 1959 demand is down another 10 million tons. What the position will be at the end of 1959 one cannot say, but, certainly, it will show demand in 1959 to have been about 30 million tons less than it was in 1956, which is only three years ago. This is a fantastic, phenomenal change in the situation. The truth is, of course, that there is a world glut of fuel, both of coal and of oil, and the result is that both in Europe and in this country we are piling coal stocks to an alarming extent.
Taking the last figures which I have, which were at 4th July, the total of undistributed stocks and distributed stocks was about 44 million tons, and of that about 29½ million tons was held by the Coal Board. This in itself brings a financial problem of considerable magnitude, because the interest payments alone on the capital investment in stocks lying on the ground is very substantial indeed.
There are two main reasons for this. One is the world recession, but the second one, and, perhaps, in a way, the more serious for coal, because we shall
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pull out of the world recession in trade, is, of course, the intensified oil competition. In view of the fact that this industry is Britain's basic industry, the industry upon which Britain made her greatness, her industrial prosperity, the industry upon which Britain will have to depend for many, many years ahead as the major source of her energy requirements, it seems to me that we ought to ask the Government what they propose to do about the coal industry.
There is involved indirectly in the industry much more than the 750,000 people directly employed by the Coal Board. There is involved enormous capital investment, over £500 million—although I know that the Paymaster-General, in the last debate, decided that it did not matter very much about capital investment being thrown on one side. He gave us a little story, saying we must not buy a motor car while there was life in the old horse yet. It was very good debating stuff.
I suppose that while some of us were earning our livings and learning our jobs the right hon. Gentleman was busy at the university learning just that sort of debating stuff, which caused roars of laughter. It was not amusing to me, for this is far too serious a matter about which to make cheap debating jokes like that at the tail end of a debate in this House.
There is not only this enormous capital investment which the right hon. Gentleman has been partly responsible with his noble Friend for issuing in the last three years. In 1957, there was an approved investment of about £100 million; in 1958 about £102 million and in 1959 £104 million. It seems to me that Parliament has a right to say that Ministers responsible for publicly-owned enterprises should safeguard the investment they themselves approve. Therefore there is some point in saying that the investment in this great industry should be safeguarded as well as the employment possibilities of the men in the industry.
The noble Lord the Minister is tucked away in another place and, therefore, it is quite impossible for us to get at him. He has a much easier time in another place than he would have if he were sitting in the place of the Paymaster-General.
Mr. James Griffiths: He is a surface worker.
Mr. Robots: For that, I suppose, he is doubly grateful.
All we have had from the Paymaster-General is that the policy of the Government is based upon consumer freedom of choice, competition in the fuel industry. At the end of a debate we get the rhetorical questions we are used to getting from the Paymaster-General, for which he never gives time for us to reply in detail. We are asked, "Do you believe in consumers' freedom of choice?" I tell the right hon. Gentleman that we do believe in consumers' freedom of choice consistent with the need to look at the social and economic needs of this nation. When we talk about consumers' freedom of choice I say right away that; we would not want to dictate—[Interruption.] Does the Parliamentary Secretary wish to interrupt?
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Sir Ian Horobin): No, thank you.
Mr. Robens: We would not want to dictate to the domestic consumer as to whether he should use oil, coal, gas or electricity Nor would we want to dictate to industry generally what kind of fuel it should use. We think that the fuels to be used should be those most appropriate for the functions they are to serve, but the task of the Minister is a co-ordinating task. He is statutorily required to co-ordinate the fuel and power industries. I want to spend a moment or two in telling the right hon. Gentleman that if he permits freedom of consumers' choice within the nationalised industries without regard to the economic and social events which will follow, he will be destroying—not building up—this industry, upon which we shall require to depend a great deal in future.
I want to refer the right hon. Gentleman to the position of the gas industry and the Durham coalfield. I give this only as a simple illustration, because I think it important that an illustration about this question of consumers' freedom of choice should be made. The gas industry decided to embark upon a programme which meant that it would use more and more oil as a raw material for making gas. It said there was not
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just a marginal difference in the cost, but a substantial difference. For the moment I shall not argue that point, but accept what the industry said. The gas industry, looking at the situation purely as a gas industry, has decided to reduce its consumption of coal from 27 million tons to 22 million tons, by the middle of the 1960s.
The 5 million tons that industry would have taken would come from coalfields which produced gas-making coal, and of all those fields the Durham coalfield is the outstanding example. If 5 million tons of gas-making coal is not taken from the Durham coalfield, that will mean that the output of 21,000 miners will not be required. The total number of miners in the Durham coalfield is 96,000, and there are 120 pits. The annual output is 24 million tons. I ask hon. Members opposite, and especially the Paymaster-General and the Minister of Power, Lord Mills, to consider the social conditions of Durham if this coal is not used to gain what, over all, in the gas industry can only be a marginal benefit to the industry.
The Paymaster-General (Mr. Reginald Maudling): I want to be clear on this. This is not a debating point, but an important point. The right hon. Member seems to be arguing that while it is quite proper to give freedom of choice, say, to the chemical industry to buy oil instead of coal, that is not the case in the gas industry. I am not arguing against that at the moment, but I am saying that that seems to be the proposition he is making.
Mr. Robens: I am coming to that in a moment. One of the principles of public ownership is to co-ordinate the activities of these great industries so that they serve a social purpose as well as an economic purpose. [Interruption.] I know that the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinching-brooke) does not agree, but the noble Lord is a reactionary who never agreed with this at all. His background is one in which no progress in any shape or form could be made. One recognises that. The point is that one of the main purposes of public ownership was to enable a real social and economic policy for the benefit of the nation to be carried out.

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It is not the subject of this debate, but there is a case for public ownership in many other fields as well as that which we are now discussing. Industry must follow a social pattern. If industry does not serve a social purpose, the State must take it over and make sure that it does. The people have to live their lives within the nation. They do not exist to serve one small section of the nation and to make private profits for a few. So I put this back to the Paymaster-General. Certainly, we see the chemical industry differently from the publicly-owned enterprises, but I should like him to look at his own Act of Parliament. Why should we say that it is the task of the Minister to co-ordinate the fuel and power industries if we do not want him to do it?
I say straight away that this doctrine of consumers' freedom of choice which the Paymaster-General has put forward, on behalf of his noble Friend the Minister and the Department, is not one which the Government follow all the time. In fact, what came out of the questions this afternoon about the Stockholm free trade discussions? From both sides of the House there was the plea to protect the agricultural industry. Why is the agricultural industry protected? It is for purely strategic and social reasons. By direct subsidy from the taxpayer we protect it to the tune of about £243 million.
There needs to be a little education, also, among the colleagues of the Paymaster-General, because the President of the Board of Trade, a week or two ago, was saying in the House that there were subsidies to the nationalised industries. The Paymaster-General knows that that is not so. The nationalised industries borrow their money from the State and pay interest on it. They repay the loan, but the agricultural industry has had subsidies for years, running at about £250 million a year directly from the taxpayers' pockets. Where does freedom of choice come in there?
Where does it come in relation to the Stockholm discussions? This is the very thing that the Paymaster-General, who went there personally to negotiate the agreement to set up an Association, has decided that he will not have in agriculture. He will not have consumers' freedom of choice there. We agree. So
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this is not a policy that the Government are following. They do not believe in consumer freedom of choice in all industries, only in this one, the nationalised industries, and why?
What a difference in the attitude taken by the right hon. Gentleman and his Ministerial friends today as compared with that of the late Stanley Baldwin, who gave substantial direct subsidies to the coal owners when the mines were under private enterprise. What a difference between the right hon. Gentleman and the days when the late Neville Chamberlain put an import duty on oil in 1933. For what reason? He said that it was because we must protect the industry which employed so many of our people. They are not our people any longer; they are the Coal Board's people, and they do not matter. Why has there been a change? I will tell the House why. If the industry had been privately owned today the right hon. Gentleman would have stood at that Box making very different speeches from those he has been making. We would have been subsidising, we would have been compelled to assist in maintaining this great industry.
I say that the doctrine of freedom of choice is a "phoney" that the Government have thought up because there are neither votes in the coal mining areas for them nor is there anything in the way of profits because the coal mines are owned by the State. I warn right hon. Gentlemen opposite that unless they are prepared to change their policy for the industry they will find a tide of revolt among the workers which will engulf them. They cannot afford summarily or lightly to dismiss an industry which employs upwards of 750,000 men directly, many more indirectly, and which provides about £200 million a year of purchasing power for private enterprise. Nor can they afford lightly to dismiss an industry where the social conditions are completely different from all others.
Does the right hon. Gentleman really intend to turn Durham into a series of deserted villages? Is this the process of thought behind his mind when he talks about consumers' freedom of choice? I say that the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends will have to think again. I know we shall

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be told later in the debate that the Ministry is now waiting for the plan of the Coal Board before it can proceed to give its own views about the future of the industry. As I understand the position, from reading the OFFICIAL REPORT of the debate in another place, the officials of the Ministry of Power are associating themselves with the Board to produce the plan. This is not a Coal Board plan at all.
Mr. Maudling Mr. Maudling indicated dissent.
Mr. Robens: Does the Paymaster-General say that this is not so?
Mr. Maudling: I should like to make it clear that it will be the Coal Board's own plan, but the Board discusses with the officials of the Ministry a number of things—for example, future estimates of demand—and we provide it with information on which to base its plan.
Mr. Robens: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has made it clear, because the Minister of Power made it clear in another place that the plan will be prepared with the co-operation, help and assistance of the officials of the Ministry of Power. Some of us have been in the Department and we know what that means. This will not be a Coal Board plan, although the Government will make it the Board's plan. Any onus of responsibility for the sad things that will happen will be on the Coal Board.
We do not know what the plan will give us. The general impression of the industry is that what we have been saying from these benches for two years is about right, namely, that the deep-mined coal industry should be built around an annual production of about 200 million tons. I am concerned about pit closures. I looked at the two previous plans for coal, the one of 1950 and the other of 1955 called, "Investing in Coal", to see whether I could find any clue as to the possibilities of pit closures.
Let us remember that since 1939 the industry has been braced to produce coal at any price to the extent of 240 million tons. Now, production must be contracted to 200 million tons. It was on the basis of these figures that the pit closures were decided, and the plan for coal in 1950 stated that between 1961
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and 1964 300 pits would have to be closed, whereas "Investing in Coal", in 1955, stated that 260 pits would have to be closed. We cannot add these two figures together and say that 560 pits must be closed because some of the closures will overlap.
If the officials have yet got to this point in their calculations, will the right hon. Gentleman deny that within the next five years we shall probably have to close between 300 and 350 pits? Would he not agree that possibly next year the number of pit closures can be anything between 60 and 100? If that is the case, and all the factors appear to point to it, we shall have in Wales, in Scotland and in England, particularly in Durham, wholesale unemployment. There will be many deserted villages where men and women have lived their lives, where there are all the facilities for community life, but where there will be no pits and no work.
Sir Peter Roberts: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Robens: I am sorry, but I cannot give way because the time is too short. I say that the social consequences of such closures must be one of the prime factors moving the Government in relation to the industry. I say this to them: there is no Luddite mind, either on the part of hon. Members on this side of the House or of any single miner in the industry.
Mr. Gerald Nabarro: Or on this side of the House.
Mr. Robens: If the day could ever come when it was not necessary to send one man into the bowels of the earth to spend over one-third of his life there in bringing energy to the surface, it would be a very good thing, but only provided that everybody had a job, and provided that villages were not left derelict because new industries were brought there. So there is no Luddite attitude about this.
I say on behalf of this side of the House that what the industry needs more than anything else is time in which to contract. Given time to contract there will be no bad social consequences as a result of closures, and we could get 200 million tons of coal from a much smaller number of highly productive pits. Coal

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brought out of those pits would be competitive with oil anywhere in the country. That is why I repeat what I said at the beginning of my speech, that I would give consumers' freedom of choice to industrialists when the industry is streamlined to the necessary extent. The first few months of the year showed how well the streamlining was going, because there was a profit of £6 million in those months, although stocking has wiped it all out. Nevertheless, we are getting on to the productive, low-cost pits and also the better wage pits.
Therefore, I say that it is time the industry wants. It needs cushions. I turn now to say what cushions there are. First, there is power station oil. This is important, because it is no criticism of the electricity industry that I now make. It is important because electricity is the best customer of the Coal Board. Speaking from memory, I think that the first and original programme for conversion from coal to oil was for 17 stations. That was modified to 13 or 14 stations and subsequently two of them were to be deferred for a year. The present position is that oil-burning stations will be burning an oil equivalent of about 6 million tons a year. That is how the process is running.
I come now to a second criticism which was made by the right hon. Gentleman against the Opposition, one of his sharp rhetorical questions. He said, "Do you agree or do you not agree with the breaking of commercial contracts?" I replied that we did not approve of the breaking of contracts. But that is not the end of the story. One does not have to break commercial contracts to get them waived or to secure changes in them. The leaders of the oil industry are as well known to us as they are to right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and I know that they have no desire to kill the coal industry, for it is not in their interests to do so. Because of the pressure, very largely in this House in Questions and in debates, they have brought that programme down to the present one of 6 million tons. The right hon. Gentleman must go back to the oil companies and endeavour to secure a further reduction in the amount of oil and ensure that coal is burnt in those power stations.
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This is a vital cushion and one which must be provided. Even if it means paying compensation, the compensation will be cheaper than paying thousands of miners unemployment benefit with all the social consequences which follow from that. This great figure of coal equivalent of oil which is being burnt in power stations is one of the cushions which the Government, if they so desired—they are one of the biggest shareholders in the biggest oil company in the country—could reduce if they got the contracts reduced, and they ought to do that. They have done it already, though they have said that they cannot break commercial contracts, and I am sure that, provided the right approach were made, they could do it again, perhaps by paying some compensation, but the compensation would be worth while.
Secondly, I do not disapprove of the gas industry looking for alternative sources of its basic raw material if it can make substantial reductions in the price of gas. However, there ought not to be this contraction of 5 million tons in such a short time. The gas industry must play its part. It is the task of Lord Mills to contract the amount that it wants much more slowly than by this sudden contraction of 5 million tons by 1965. It should be cushioned at about one-third of that rate, because the gain in the lower price of the gas overall—not at particular gas stations but overall—is so marginal that it is not worth the repercussions upon the coal industry. Therefore, this reduction should be spread out rather more.
There is a third cushion for the right hon. Gentleman. He should now have a rather more rapid rundown of opencast coal. The whole basis of the Government's proposals about this year's coal situation was that 3 million tons would not be raised because 36 pits would be closed. The estimate was 9 million tons surplus to requirement. Three million tons would be put into stock and 3 million tons would not be obtained by running down opencast coal production. The estimates are all wrong. The 9 million ton figure is wrong. We have had a reduction in demand of 10 million tons in the first six months of the year. Opencast mining must take its share. I know all the arguments to the contrary, the arguments about the high cost of machinery and so on, but, nevertheless, it is again,

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technically possible to spread a contract over a longer period and it is possible to reduce somewhat the opencast contracts.
If these three things were done, then, instead of this savage rundown, the process of moving over from the uneconomic pits and the pits which are reaching exhaustion point to the better, newer pits could be done in such an easy manner that the Coal Board would have the same satisfactory results that it has had in spite of the 200 or more closures which have occurred since nationalisation, for those closures were brought about with care, proper consultation and without any bad social effects.
What I am pleading for is time, and I am proving, I hope, that the Government have it in their power to give the industry time. I believe that if they will give the industry time and then build a streamlined industry around 200 million tons of coal a year they will have a coal industry second to none in the world. For the first time in twenty years the coal industry can look at the way in which it is producing coal rather than at the amount of coal that it must produce.
I would say that 200 million tons is a fairly easy amount at which to aim. I will not go into details, but if we take coke ovens, gas, electricity, the railways and domestic use at considerably lower amounts, with the exception of electricity, than they are consuming now, there is 142 million tons in respect of those uses alone, and I see no difficulty about general industry taking another 41 million tons by the middle of the 1960s. Thus, the 200 million tons is there. This is the answer to the Parliamentary Secretary, who shrieked the other week, "It is all right talking about 200 million tons, but you have got to sell it when you have got it." Of course one has, but it can easily be sold. There is no need to get bothered about it.
We could export 10 million tons of coal a year, too. Here the Government have to do something. I want to know what good is the treaty of association with the European Coal and Steel Community. What value has it proved to be? I thought that it was going to be a real association, which would somehow help our coal industry. I should like to
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know from the Paymaster-General what its value is today. Germany has imposed restrictions on imports of British coal. This is the country to which we doled out millions of pounds to help in the recovery of its economy. Belgium has imposed a licensing restriction. In the case of France, I am told by exporters that they are encountering an official discrimination, a surcharge on anthracite duff.
Will the Paymaster-General tell us what is the value of the treaty of association? When there is in Europe a market which will take about 250 million tons of coal, when despite oil and nuclear energy 250 million tons of coal will be required for the next ten to fifteen years, are we not entitled to say that we could sell 10 million tons there through ports which are geographically important and properly situated in relation to our coalfields and our traditional customers? I believe that this can be done, and it is important that we should have some exports.
It is not just a matter of the disposal of 10 million tons of coal. We must think of the gains to our railways in transporting 10 million tons of coal to the ports. We must think of the gains to the ports exporting coal in South Wales, Scotland, Merseyside and the North-East Coast. There can be very substantial gains arising from the export of 10 million tons of coal, and they should not be lost.
I would ask the Paymaster-General—he deals with these matters in another sphere—what the Government propose to do about bilateral agreements. Finland, Spain, Denmark—I hope the right hon. Gentleman will note "Denmark", because it is in the Stockholm group and we have just taken a 10 per cent. tariff off its bacon imports—and Sweden have all signed bilateral agreements with the Russians or the Poles. I want to know what the Government are doing when they involve themselves in trade negotiations with other countries about suggesting coal as one of the materials which we might export. If the industry were in private hands, the private owners of pits would be forcing the Government to do this. They do not do it, because they do not care.
I shall now read the relevant portion of an extract from the Board of Trade

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Monthly Economic Reports. Referring to the Soviet-Danish Trade Agreement, they say:
"Danish imports are to include 500,000 tons of petroleum products instead of 140,000 tons, 250,000 tons of coal instead of 80,000 tons …".
That is 250,000 tons of Russian coal instead of 80,000 tons which the Danes took the year before. That is the result of a bilateral agreement between the Soviet Union and Denmark which is a member of the Stockholm Group. We have to remember the abolition of the 10 per cent. tariff on imports of Danish bacon into this country. What have the Government done about it, if anything? This Agreement means that the Danes are less likely to get their coal from us.
Sweden has signed a similar Agreement with Poland, of which the Board of Trade Reports say:
"…a further increase in imports of Polish coal is envisaged."
When I asked the President of the Board of Trade about this some time ago, he did not know very much about it and we could not get any sense from him. The Paymaster-General has responsibility for the coal industry and I hope that he will understand that it is important that we should have an export market for our coal, that that export market will not be obtained easily and that technical methods of dealing with that must now be left to the experts of the marketing department of the Coal Board.
But the Government can play a part and they should not easily allow those who are our friends and who are associated with us in many matters to make bilateral agreements which not only damage our coal industry, but prevent us from getting in on a fair competitive basis. There is no consumers' freedom of choice about this. When there is a bilateral agreement, we have "had it". Government influence should be used with our friends and traditional customers against their making bilateral agreements about coal. Selling 10 million tons of coal at the most favourable points on the Continent geographically is not unreasonable and not something which we are not entitled to pursue.
The coal industry can now take a new road, a road different from the old, because we have been producing coal without
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regard to anything else. Now we have to produce coal at a cost which enables the coal to be sold in competition with other fuels. I am certain—it is not merely a belief—that the publicly-owned coal industry can do this job, but we cannot turn an industry which, for twenty years, has been producing coal regardless of other considerations into this new streamlined instrument in one year or two. The only people who can give this industry the breathing space necessary to make it once again a great prosperous industry upon which village life and men's employment can depend, are the Government. Are they prepared to do it?
4.53 p.m.
The Paymaster-General (Mr. Reginald Maudling): It is a matter of only a few weeks since we had a debate on coal. I am not in any way criticising that, because, as the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said, it is an extremely important industry, and it is only right that we should frequently debate its affairs when there are difficulties such as those which the industry is now facing. But inevitably the ground we cover and the arguments we use will not be very different from the arguments we used in the previous debate.
I take issue with the right hon. Gentleman on the question of debating points. I sometimes find that the phrase "debating points" is used by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite to describe arguments which they cannot answer. I hope that they will not think that it is a debating point if I point out, as I think I am entitled to point out, that the right hon. Gentleman combined a violent attack on our policy of freedom of choice for the consumer with an assertion that that was also the policy of his own party, except for the nationalised industries.
Mr. Robens Mr. Robens indicated dissent.
Mr. Maudling: If the right hon. Gentleman reads his speech tomorrow, he will find that that is what he was saying.
I must say that I found myself in complete agreement with a great deal of what the right hon. Gentleman said. I am not sure that our respective assessments of the future of the coal industry are very different. His assessment of the future of the industry and the prospect that it can become fully competitive with

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oil and other sources of fuel on the basis of a slightly contracted industry of about 200 million tons capacity was a proposition which one could readily accept.
But I thought that that was not consistent with some of his phrases. I think that it is a great mistake to exaggerate the present difficulties. He quoted my noble Friend saying that there was cause for anxiety. Of course there is cause for anxiety. The prospects are anxious, but they are not grim, the word he used. I think that the right hon. Gentleman was exaggerating when he talked about wholesale unemployment, deserted villages and a savage run-down. I do not want to minimise the difficulties or the problems, but I ask that they should not be exaggerated. Exaggeration is bad for the House and bad for the industry.
I want to try to assess what seem to me to be the problems facing the industry, and what the Government and the National Coal Board are doing about them, before saying one or two things about the proposals of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The difficulties of the Coal Board are two-fold, short-term competition and short-term decline in demand, and a new doubt about long-term prospects for the industry. I think that it will be recognised, as the right hon. Gentleman recognised, that any industry, even a basic industry, in an economy which is changing and developing with new technical ideas and possibilities is bound to be liable to face difficulties of this kind.
Indeed, the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) in Durham the other day said that if we could find new forms of energy, well and good. He said:
"We would rather work in white overalls on the top than in black underneath".
That seems to be an unarguable proposition. I do not think that anyone is trying to say that it is necessary for ever to maintain a coal industry of a certain size.
The point the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth was making, and it seems to me to be a fair point, is that the industry needs time to contract. He rightly said that there were two special features of the coal industry. He did not stress the first of those this afternoon as he has done in the past. It is that coal
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is our indigenous source of fuel and that we should make the best use of it. The second, to which he did not refer at great length because it is well known, is the special social problems which arise in the contraction of this industry. The Government fully accept that it would be wrong to consider the economics of fuel in this country without regard to the social consequences of any development. On the other hand, we must recognise that the economy is one economy and that the mining industry cannot prosper unless the economy as a whole is prospering and taking the fullest advantage of technical change and new technical developments.
I should like to divide what I say about the problems facing the industry into two parts, the short-term problem and the long-term prospects. As the right hon. Gentleman said, between 1955 and 1958 there was a decline in coal consumption equivalent to 13 million tons a year. He attributed that to two things, to the world recession and to the competition of oil. I think that with the world recession one can link the growth of efficiency in fuel use, because that must have greatly contributed to the decline in demand for fuel. Certainly the competition from oil has been a very serious matter.
So far as I can see, it is based on three things: first, the technical factors, that oil is on the whole more consistent, more homogeneous in quality and easier to handle for a number of purposes; secondly, there have been doubts from time to time about the adequacy of coal supplies, thirdly—and we must always remember this—there was a substantial increase in the price of coal over the ten years from 1947 to 1957, which was bound to have an important effect on the competitive position of and the demand for coal.
Mr. Aneurin Bevan: Is there not a fourth factor? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman is going on to explain it. Is there not the very low social standards of the countries from which the oil comes?
Mr. Maudling: I do not think that that is a factor in the demand for coal. The fact is that the price of oil has not risen anything like as much as the price of coal. I do not think there is any difference of opinion between us on that.
Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman outlined three or four reasons why oil is becoming so much more competitive. He did not add the factor that oil is relatively cheap because of the low social standards of the countries from which it comes.
Mr. Maudling: It is true that social standards have been rising very fast in this country in recent years, though that is not always accepted. This is a matter of comparison.
Mr. J. Griffiths: Is the Minister enunciating the doctrine that if any indigenous product is driven out of the market by sweated goods the Government propose to do nothing about it?
Mr. Maudling: Nothing of the sort. The world price of oil is set on Gulf prices, and if anyone thinks that the standard of living in Texas or the Gulf is low he is mistaken. I was trying to analyse the reasons why the coal industry is feeling the competition of oil, and price is undoubtedly one of them.
As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth said, in the first half of 1959 inland consumption was down by 9·4 million tons. We must always make adjustments for the weather factor, and I am told by the statisticians that the weather has accounted for a decline of 2 million tons. We have also seen an increase in the consumption of oil by power stations where consumption has been reaching its peak. The steel industry, which is a very heavy consumer of coal, has been recovering from a world recession, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, slower than other industries.
Those are the reasons which we must take into account when considering the short-term position, which, as the right hon. Gentleman said, has led to stocks amounting to some 44 million tons. That is a very large stock and a heavy financial burden on the coal industry.
I now turn to the long-term prospect. Some while ago I said that the best calculation that we could make of the inland demand for energy in 1965 would be about 300 million tons. To reach that figure by 1965 the expansion that is taking place in industry now will have to go ahead very fast, but I still think that it is reasonable to take 300 million tons as a rough figure for the total
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energy demand in the middle 1960s. The amount which the coal industry will secure will depend on its competitive position.
I want to consider one or two of the large consumers of coal to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. If we do that, we will see that the real picture of the future prospects of the coal industry is not so gloomy as is sometimes suggested. Let us first consider industrial and domestic consumers and the railways, because it is in these groups that the coal industry is under the greatest pressure from oil competition.
I should have thought that in the case of general industrial consumption, which is a very large item, a fully efficient coal industry which has its production costs under control would be able to compete very effectively with oil. It is, however, under heavy pressure and will continue to be because of the many advantages that the industrialists see in present circumstance in the use of oil. That is really the sector in which competition in the coal industry is most severe.
Look at the other main consumers. There will undoubtedly be a large increase in the consumption of coal by the electricity industry. By 1965 there should be an increase of some 9 to 10 million tons a year in the consumption of coal, a very large item. Coke ovens are also large consumers of coal. We think that the consumption of coal by coke ovens will increase by several million tons between now and 1965, even taking into account technical developments which may enable a ton of steel to be made with a smaller weight of coke than is the case at present.
In the case of electricity and coke ovens, both of which are very large consumers of coal, there are prospects for a substantial increase in coal consumption. That leaves the gas industry as the other main consumer, and I should like to say a word or two about this.
It would be wrong to suggest that there has been some sudden new development in the gas industry; as it were, some attack on coal and some deliberate switch to oil. That is not really a fair picture. As I understand it, over a long period the gas industry has used a fair amount of oil in making carburetted water gas and recently a number of factors have encouraged the gas industry

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to make greater use of oil. For example, there is difficulty in selling coke. We can never consider the economy of the gas industry without remembering the importance of the disposal of coke. Also, if there is a chance of using waste gases from refineries it is sensible to use them and not blow them into the air.
There have been difficulties and dangers in the past about the supply of carbonisation coal. That is not so at the moment, but two or three years ago it was very difficult to be confident about the future of carbonisation coal. Also, the gas industry feels that the increase in the price of the coal that it uses for carbonisation has been considerable.
For all those reasons, the gas industry, as a natural evolution of its policies, has been ready to utilise more oil and products of that kind.
Mr. R. Moss: Will the right hon. Gentleman say a word about the complete gasification of coal which is also a process which leaves no residue in the form of coke?
Mr. Maudling: The gas industry is clearly going to continue to be predominantly based on coal. Together with the Coal Board and other people the gas industry is pursuing experiments into the complete gasification of low-grade coals. We regard this as being of the greatest importance, and I know that the Gas Council also regards it as most important.
It is wrong to suggest that the Gas Council is deliberately turning its back on coal. It has been driven to use more oil, for reasons which I have been explaining. The gas industry has to sell its product in competition with other forms of fuel. If the gas industry does not prosper, it cannot be a good customer of the coal industry. I ask right hon. and hon. Gentlemen to bear that in mind. The gas industry can be a good consumer of coal only if it is prosperous, and it can prosper only if it keeps its costs and prices down to face competition, which is quite severe.
At the request of my noble Friend the gas industry and the Coal Board are making a thorough objective appraisal of the whole situation. I am sure that that is the right first step to take. I am also sure that my noble Friend will take note of what the right hon. Gentleman said
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today about the way in which he thinks the gas industry should be regarded by the Government in this matter.
I was interested in the right hon. Gentleman's thesis that it would be right and proper to restrain the use of oil by the gas industry while at the same time continuing to allow freedom to industry generally to use oil if it wished to do so. That is a very interesting point of view. I was glad that the right hon. Gentleman welcomed the continuation of experiments by the Gas Council. It would be wrong to hold up any experiment that might give rise to substantial reductions in the cost of gas.
We should not assume that the development of things like liquid methane need lead to the displacement of coal. They might lead to the displacement of oil. In any case, it is impossible to take a decision on this matter until we have more information about the experiments with methane and the technical and economic consequences involved.
At the request of my noble Friend the Coal Board and the Gas Council are carrying out a joint study of the whole matter. I am sure that they are doing it in a spirit of friendship and co-operation because they have a close interest one in the other. It is not in the interests of the gas industry to damage the coal industry, nor is it in the interests of the coal industry to damage the gas industry. Their prosperity is certainly closely linked.
Mr. Gerald Nabarro: We have now been going forward with researches and experiments in the underground gasification of coal for twelve years at Newman Spinney, near Chesterfield, and at Bayton in my own constituency. Huge sums of money have been spent on these experiments. We can never obtain any information as to whether we are going to gasify coal underground in this country. It is four years since the Minister of Fuel and Power came to my constituency and promised progress. Nothing whatever has happened.
Mr. Maudling: My hon. Friend cannot have noticed the statement made a few months ago by the National Coal Board that it will not continue with these experiments.
Mr. E. Shinwell: I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I should like the House to be clear on this subject of the reappraisal of the situation in the gas industry. Do I understand that, in consultation with the National Coal Board, the gas industry is now considering the production of a smokeless fuel, extracting all possible gases, so as to make it cheaper to the consumer and, at the same time, more suitable for open grates?
Mr. Maudling: Both the National Coal Board and some of the gas boards have been doing extremely good work with smokeless fuel. The National Coal Board has "Warmco", which is a very good development, and some of the gas boards are also working on similar fuels. There is a great deal of co-operation between them. It is obviously a very fruitful field for co-operation between the industries.
Mr. A. Woodburn: Will the Paymaster-General permit me to clear up a point in the intervention of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro)?
Mr. Maudling: I should be glad to give way to any right hon. or hon. Gentleman who wishes to put questions to me, but I think that it would be out of order if I endeavoured to give way to a mutual discussion.
The fact is that the Coal Board said some months ago that it had decided that it did not intend to proceed further with experiments in underground gasification, because it did not feel that the commercial prospects justified the expense on research which would be involved. It thought that there were better things on which to spend the research moneys available.
Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it has not been stopped on scientific grounds, but purely because of the financial difficulties of the Coal Board and the need for economising in cash, among other reasons?
Mr. Maudling: That is not very far from what I said. I said that it had been stopped, not for technical reasons. When one looks at what would be obtained from the commercial exploitation of this process, it is not sufficiently
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advantageous to make it worth while devoting to research all the large resources which the Coal Board thinks would be better employed otherwise.
Mr. John Arbuthnot: Has my right hon. Friend seen the notice in the paper, either yesterday or today, suggesting that the latest experiments on underground gasification of coal lead to the suggestion that there may be possible hopes from it?
Mr. Maudling: I saw that in The Times. I made inquiries and that is why I am so well briefed this afternoon.
I should like to sum up on what I am trying to put as the most objective analysis of the prospects of the coal industry. In the field of industrial and domestic consumption generally and the railways, there is clearly a danger of very severe and increasing competition. On the other hand, in the electricity industry, which is the largest single consumer, the prospect is of a very substantial expansion. The same applies to coke ovens, and the gas industry is not in as difficult a position from the coal point of view as is sometimes suggested.
When all those various factors are added together, we should not think, as some people tend to think, of the present level of coal production as the beginning of a further decline. We should think of it as a point which can certainly be held if the industry is organised on the most efficient basis and if proper control and attention are paid to cost. I gain the impression that on this basic proposition there is not so very much difference between the right hon. Gentleman and myself.
On the short-term problem, the Coal Board's proposals were to reduce opencast mining by 3 million tons, deep-mined production by 3 million tons and to stock 3 million tons. As the House is aware, the amount put to stock this year will have to be considerably greater, for a variety of reasons. Stocking by consumers is down and exports are disappointing. It was the belief of the Coal Board that any additional coal should be put to stock and that there should be no additional economic closures this year.
Of the 10,000 men displaced by the economic closures which have taken place to date, all but 1,500 have been

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found other employment. There remains a serious problem, particularly in Wales, I understand, and parts of Scotland, but I think that it is encouraging that through the co-operation of all concerned the placement of men who have lost their jobs by the closure of pits has gone ahead better even than we thought at the time it was first announced.
On the long-term position, the Coal Board's new plan is not yet available and will not be available for a few weeks yet. Clearly, it is impossible to speculate precisely about what its form will be, but I think that we can see the key to the situation in the assault that has been made recently on the problem of costs. As the right hon. Gentleman himself said, costs in the December quarter of last year were down substantially. I do not see why that trend should not be held and why there should not be further reductions in costs if the Coal Board is not faced with the imposition of further additional costs which it finds impossible to absorb. I am sure that the secret in the long-term prospect of coal lies, as the right hon. Gentleman said, in having an industry of the right size and in competitive condition on the basis of comparative costs.
In previous discussions there has been some talk about the flexibility of prices, and often people suggest that the Coal Board should conduct a sort of bargain sale of coal to dispose of its stocks. That would be a mistake. There is no point in selling coal to people much cheaper this year if the result is only that they buy less coal next year. Very great importance is often attached by consumers to continuity of supply. This applies both to home and export consumers, as the Board is well aware. The House can be assured that the Board and all its employees are well aware of the importance of costs and prices to the future prospects of the industry.
The other way in which we think that the industry's position will be improved is by the most vigorous pursuit of improved methods of utilising coal. A great deal of work is being done in this field by the Coal Board—I know that the right hon. Gentleman is very interested in this—by the Gas Council, and by the British Coal Utilisation Research Association. There is research into solid fuel equipment into the use of producer gas
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from coal rather than oil in the glass industry, the gasification of low-grade coal, to which reference was made, and bricquetting. We believe that all these activities will be given a further stimulus when we have later on the Report of the Wilson Committee which my right hon. Friend recently appointed.
The argument I want to make before I turn for a little while to the Opposition Motion is that the situation in the coal industry, though anxious, is not as grim as it is depicted by the adjectives in speeches from the party opposite, though I think that the situation is probably far more akin to the substance of the right hon. Gentleman's argument. We believe that in the short-term the Coal Board has been right to carry the increased burden this year on stocks rather than turn it to more economic closures. We think that the Board is right to concentrate in the future on making coal cheaper and more acceptable in every possible way to the consumer.
Mr. Iorwerth Thomas: Before the right hon. Gentleman proceeds to the final conclusion and his constructive attack on the Opposition Motion, I remind him that he has not yet dealt with the prospects and potentials of atomic energy in power stations. That is a very important factor.
Mr. Maudling: I was trying to follow the right hon. Gentleman, and he did not refer to it. I was rather surprised that he did not, because in a recent debate in another place the noble Lord who spoke officially for the Opposition suggested that the nuclear power programme should be slowed down. I was interested that the right hon. Gentleman did not say that, and I am, therefore, assuming that the party opposite is not asking us to slow down the programme of nuclear power stations.
The Motion before the House says:
"That this House regrets the failure of Her Majesty's Government to plan the place of the coal industry in the national economy."
I do not quite understand what is meant by that. The Coal Board is always planning the output of coal. It produced "Plan for Coal" and "Investing in Coal," and it is now producing another plan, which it will discuss with the Government and with the National Union of

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Mineworkers, setting out what it believes to be the right place of the coal industry in the national economy. In so far as the Government have approved these plans and the capital investment placed on them, clearly the Government are approving of this assessment of the future place of coal in the national economy.
Mr. Robens: Does not the right hon. Gentleman understand that unless the Government underwrite the plan which is now to come forward, it is not worth the paper that it is written on? The first two plans have proved to be abortive, and this plan will also be abortive unless the Government underwrite it and see that it takes its place in the national economy. Unless the Government do that, we shall have another plan in three years' time.
Mr. Maudling: That is the point I want to make. Clearly, the point of the party opposite is that if the plan goes wrong one does not alter the plan to fit the facts, but alters the facts to fit the plan. That is the kind of policy on which the party opposite has been trying to run the country. I am going to deal with the argument. Does the right hon. Gentleman wish to intervene again?
Mr. Robens: I only plead with the right hon. Gentleman to talk sense to us and not to try out his dialectical skill in the House. We want to talk plain horse sense on this. The right hon. Gentleman knows that what he is now accusing us of now is not true.
Mr. Maudling: It is difficult to say much in face of the noise coming from the right hon. Gentleman.
The fact is that the policy statements of the party opposite are becoming fraudulent. The Coal Board and the Government make a plan for the amount of coal they wish to produce. They then find that that plan is not exactly right, that the demand for coal is not what they thought it would be. We say that in those circumstances the plan should be adapted to changed circumstances. But not the party opposite. It says that we should go on producing the coal. That is not a sensible policy.
Mr. Robens: Oil has been substituted for coal at the direct intervention of the
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Government and that has nothing at all to do with planning. I have asked the right hon. Gentleman to deal with the fuel oil situation. He has not done so and he will not do so unless he is made to.
Mr. Nabarro: The miners would not produce the coal that was necessary.
Mr. Maudling: It is an extraordinary thing that when one deals with the policies of the party opposite its members do not seem to like it. We must really be clear on this point. Too often are phrases such as "plan the place of the coal industry in the national economy" used by the Opposition. That is exactly what we are doing.
In its various plans, the Coal Board plans a certain output of coal. The only argument is what happens if that production turns out to be more than the demand. We say that in those circumstances we should stimulate demand by bringing down costs, and, if necessary, trim production. What the party opposite is saying is that we should, in fact, increase the demand for coal by stopping people using something else. Every time that we analyse the difference between the party opposite and ourselves it comes back to this. What hon. Members opposite mean by the word "plan" is the stopping of people from using a substitute for coal. If it does not mean that then it is no different from what the Coal Board and the Government are doing.
Mr. Robens: Why does not the right hon. Gentleman confine himself to oil for power stations and opencast coal?
Mr. Maudling: I wish that the right hon. Gentleman would put on a new record. I am getting a little tired of that one.
Mr. Robens: What about the power stations?
Mr. Maudling: I am coming to that. It might be useful if I based myself on the official statement of policy by the party opposite. Hon. Members opposite say:
"This must be based on giving the coal industry a long-term output figure around which to plan."
That is what we are doing.

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That brings me to the point which the party opposite can never learn. Even after all the experience of the party opposite between 1945 and 1950, with all its extraordinary Economic Surveys stating how many people will be working, hon. Members opposite never learn that one can plan till one is blue in the face but that one cannot force people to consume what they do not wish to consume.
The party opposite says that the second consideration after coal
"will be the use of oil products from United Kingdom refineries."
It is extraordinary for anyone to think that one can confine the use of oil in a country to oil produced by the refineries in that country. There is no reason why the pattern of consumption and the most efficient balance of refinery output in any single country should coincide. How can one stop people bringing in oil without making it subject to quota? This would be contrary to our international obligations. The right hon. Gentleman himself said this afternoon that he is quite happy for industrial consumers to use as much oil as they like. That seems inconsistent with his policy.
Then the party opposite talks about its programme for the conversion of power stations to oil. It says:
"It is probable that the costs of reconversion to coal would be less than those involved in maintaining large numbers of miners on unemployment and redundancy pay. …"
I would say again what I have already said on the subject on two occasions in the House. The amount of oil to be taken by the power stations has been reduced by a coal equivalent of nearly 4 million tons. Why were the contracts made in the first place? They were made because it did not seem likely that adequate coal supplies would be available. The contracts for oil were made as an insurance because the Coal Board could not guarantee to provide enough coal. It seems quite wrong, therefore, to repudiate a contract simply because the circumstances have changed.
Mr. Robens: The Government are being asked, in view of the fact that they determined the use of oil because their planning in 1955 was wrong, to go back to the oil companies and to renegotiate.
Mr. Maudling: The contract is between the electricity industry and the oil companies. If the electricity industry wishes
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to go further in its negotiations that is a matter for the industry alone. Nothing on the lines suggested by the right hon. Gentleman can be carried out without instructions being given to cancel contracts, which we are not prepared to do. That is the answer which I have to give him on the question of the consumption of oil by the power stations.
The only other point which the right hon. Gentleman made in his speech was that there should be a further review of opencast coal operations. Do the words "further review" mean further reductions?
Mr. Robens: Yes.
Mr. Maudling: Then why does not the right hon. Gentleman say so?
Mr. Robens: I did say so, and if the right hon. Gentleman looks at HANSARD tomorrow he will see that I did.
Mr. Maudling: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will move an amendment to his party's statement on policy, because it would clarify the situation considerably.
Mr. Robens: I would like the right hon. Gentleman to say whether the Government are prepared to find the necessary time and equipment to put the coal industry right. Will the right hon. Gentleman say something about the power stations, the gas industry and opencast mining? Will he give straight answers to straight questions?
Mr. Maudling: I have answered two of the questions, but have not been given the necessary opportunity to answer the third.
We are not prepared to get people to break contracts. On the gas industry, I gave a very considered statement on the position. On the matter of opencast mining, there has already been a rundown. Output this year will be down by 3 million tons, a far heavier proportionate cut than that applied to deep mining.
From the Coal Board's point of view—taking account of the facts and figures—opencast mining is a profitable operation, and it is right for the Board to take that fact into consideration. It is running down opencast mining very fast. It is well down already and it will be down to 7 million tons next year. We have announced that the Board does not intend to make any more contracts for opencast

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mining save in exceptional circumstances. There may be exceptions, I cannot generalise, there may be special types of coal, for example, which can be obtained only by opencast operations, but this is what I am informed by the Coal Board and I take the word of the Board because I consider that it is fairly well informed in these matters.
The Board is running down its opencast mining operations very rapidly and I think that it is justified in saying that it should not go faster because of the financial considerations involved. So I have dealt with all the things which were suggested by the right hon. Member for Blyth.
Mr. Robens: Not satisfactorily, if I may say so.
Mr. Maudling: I quite understand that it is not satisfactory to the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Robens: And not satisfactory to the industry.
Mr. Maudling: That is quite a wrong opinion, quite a wrong point of view.
Mr. Robens: No.
Mr. Maudling: I have been subjected to a constant stream of comments from the right hon. Member for Blyth, not one of which had much relevance to the arguments which have been advanced. I have dealt with the three points about opencast mining, about contracts and about the gas industry, So far, I have not discovered that the party opposite proposes to do anything different from what we are doing, other than that now it says that opencast mining should be reduced whereas up to the present it has asked only for a further review.
The fact is that hon. Members opposite are making a fundamental error in over-painting the gloom of the situation. If they will examine the position in the light of what the right hon. Gentleman has said this afternoon, if they will consider the short-term and the long-term prospects, they will find that they are considerably exaggerating in what they say. The short-term problem gives cause for anxiety as we would agree. That has been dealt with by the Coal Board and by the Government by stocking on a
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large scale and providing financial facilities for stocking. The long-term problem can be dealt with only by making coal competitive.
The sale of coal will depend on the demand of the consumers for coal. However much we plan we cannot sell coal that people do not want to buy, unless they are forced to buy coal, and the party opposite has never yet had the courage to say that it will force anyone to buy coal.
5.32 p.m.
Mr. Julian Snow: The right hon. Gentleman the Paymaster-General has a curious "blind spot" on the subject of oil. That has been evidenced on many occasions in the Answers which he has given and in those which have been given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power. The right hon. Gentleman talks about world prices for oil and in doing so he seems to fear that because of the control of so-called Gulf prices there will be stability in the prices for oil that this country will have to pay. I wish to draw his attention to the fact that at present there is a world surplus of 200 million tons of oil and that countries like the United States of America have imposed compulsory import controls to prevent the importation of foreign oil.
As an example of the point I am making, one need only consider the case of Venezuela and read the speech of the Chairman of the Ultramar Company which is reported in The Times this morning. Venezuela has lost a substantial market in the United States and is being forced to find new markets. That will be done by dropping the price of oil to consumer countries such as ourselves. We are, therefore, not only faced with the problem of the existing threat of oil to our coal industry, not only with the attraction of the convenience of using oil, which was referred to by the Paymaster-General, but also with a likely tendency for oil prices to drop and to continue to be an increasing danger to our economy. I beg the right hon. Gentleman to face this issue.
We ask for a planned use of fuel in this country. I believe that even the party opposite will be forced to adopt such a policy in due course, and it is not true to say that if a plan is produced

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by the National Coal Board, it will stand or fall by its own worth. We have seen in recent months that, by their economic policy, the Government can wreck any plan produced by the Coal Board. We had evidence of that in the deliberate restriction of credit, and the consequential and deliberate reduction in the demand for solid fuels which has led to the present trouble.
I think it regrettable that there should be this carefully calculated hostility towards the mining community. We have heard evidence of that from the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). I do not blame the hon. Gentleman. It is characteristic of what the ordinary Conservative speaker says in his constituency.
Mr. Nabarro: But I am not an ordinary Conservative speaker. The mining community are my brethren, and recognise it.
Mr. Snow: I do not propose to be drawn into giving my personal opinion of the hon. Gentleman: I am not sure that I should be in order.
The fact is that local papers in our constituencies print the sort of speeches exemplified by that made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works at a Conservative ladies' luncheon club—or whatever it was—at Coulsdon, when he talked about a plan for separate boards of individual directors, in other words, reverting to the old system of management. I do not think that the average collier would welcome a return to the form of managerial control which existed in the old days. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works talked about the failure of centralised production of coal, but that is a result of the deliberate intention of this Government to wreck the policy of the National Coal Board.
Sir Thomas Moore: That is very funny.
Mr. Snow: The hon. Gentleman may think it very funny. But this afternoon we have been accused of being overanxious and worried about the future of the Coal Board, and all I can say is that the experience of the hon. Gentleman is not the same as mine. I took the trouble to discover the feelings of people immediately concerned with the winning of
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coal. Men and women in the mining communities in my constituency are extremely anxious and worried about the future. This anxiety takes two forms. A man of 40 says, "Am I doing the right thing by staying in the industry for the rest of my working life?". The younger man says, "Is it worth going into the industry at all?" In my opinion we all have a duty, irrespective of party, to provide some sort of stability for the labour force in this industry. If we do not, we may find the effect of the present uncertainty very damaging to our economy.
I do not blame my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) for saying that, by and large, we would not object to seeing miners leave their work underground and find cleaner, easier, and more lucrative jobs elsewhere. But this country cannot afford to have that sort of thing happening, because we shall depend on the production of coal for many years to come.
Reverting to the question of oil imports, I wish to know why there has been an increase in oil imports from non-British sources. I find that in 1957 we imported 828,000 metric tons from the Netherlands. In 1958 we imported 2,111,000 metric tons. In 1957 we imported 101,000 metric tons from France and in 1958 we imported 454,000 metric tons. When I questioned spokesmen of certain oil interests in this country I was told that, because of the pattern of refining in Europe, we re-export refined oil. Why cannot we export refined products from our Commonwealth crude oil resources? Why do we have to import from the Netherlands and from France nearly three times or four times as much?
Mr. Maudling: In fact, we export far more to the Continent than we buy.
Mr. Snow: It may well be the case, but the general pattern of trade is that we are apparently importing a far greater proportion of oil than is necessary, when we take into account the availability of Commonwealth supplies. I think that the Paymaster-General knows that that is a fact.
On the question of traction on our railways, I think we all accept the proposition that the sooner we get rid of steam traction the better. Cleanliness, efficiency and braking speeds are all increased by some form of traction other

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than steam, which we have to get rid of. Why cannot we do it by electricity rather than by dieselised locomotives?
Mr. Nabarro: It takes too long.
Mr. Snow: Every efficient railway service in the world uses electrical traction.
Mr. Nabarro: If the hon. Gentleman had taken the interest that I have taken in this problem over the last fifteen years he would know that although electrical traction is ultimately more economical it is a much more lengthy process to install. Therefore, it has been thought desirable to integrate diesel electric locomotives with the railways as a short-term measure. Ultimately there will be total electrification.
Mr. Snow: I would like to be convinced that that is really the policy of Her Majesty's Government in these matters. Hon. Friends of mine and myself have consulted the Transport Commission and it seems to us that the Government are literally encouraging the use of dieselised traction.
So many hon. Members want to speak that I will try to keep my remarks as short as possible, but I want to refer to a particularly human matter. We all agree that we have to maintain manpower in the coal industry for many years to come, even though it be on a reduced scale. There is an assumption that mechanisation has improved the conditions of work at the coal face but I am not at all sure that that is the case. I made inquiries from the only two sources at my disposal, the National Coal Board, and through the Library of the House of Commons, other sources, to see whether any investigation had been made into the effect of mechanisation on work at the coal face, as regards both cutting and loading on to belts, and there is little evidence of investigation.
I am informed, however, contrary to the belief of many people, that the effect on the health of the miner has been worsened by mechanisation. I hope my hon. Friends who have been miners will not dispute this point. My information is that when a man gets to about 50 years of age and has been working at the face, he has gone over the top of his maximum productivity as an individual and that
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from that time his earnings go down because he has to go on to a lighter job. I am told that one effect of mechanisation is that men have to get away from the coal face earlier.
In that case, in the planning of our manpower we must take into consideration the fact that men who have been winning coal by means of mechanical processes will have their earnings dropped earlier than was the case before, and we must try to move towards the point at which miners are retired upon proper retirement pensions at a much earlier age than this country has ever thought necessary. I would bring an example from another country and a different industry. It has always been amazing to me that the French railway first-class locomotive driver is retired at 50 years of age on full pension, as compared with the much higher age in this country. The same principle could be applied to the mining industry.
I beg the Parliamentary Secretary not to give the impression, as I think he particularly does in this House, of an essential hostility towards the miners. I have been rereading his replies over the past four or five weeks to Questions put mainly from this side of the House about the future of the mining industry. I have the impression that the Answers that we got were essentially unhelpful and hostile, and even cynical. I do not know what the reason for this may be, but I wonder whether there are not as long historical memories on the Government side as there are on this side of the House, and whether Government supporters fear the political cohesion of the miners of this country. If that is the situation, they are taking a very short view indeed of the future. Whether they like it or not, coal has to be produced in this country as an essential commodity for many years ahead.
5.46 p.m.
Mr. Gerald Nabarro: A great deal of criticism has been levelled at my noble Friend the Minister of Power, and much of it is unjustified. My noble Friend has to his credit several important achievements in the last three years.
The first of these achievements is that he has ended coal imports into Great Britain by the policy that he has followed.
Mr. David Griffiths: No.
Mr. Nabarro: In 1955 we spent no less than £80 million, very largely in hard currency, in bringing 12 million tons of coal to this country because our mining output was inadequate. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about steel?"] I am not talking about steel at present. I may deal with it later. The second achievement of my noble Friend is that he has ended house coal rationing.
Mr. D. Griffiths: That is not important.
Mr. Nabarro: It is not important to a member of the National Union of Mineworkers, because he gets large quantities of concessionary coal. My constituents, under the rationing arrangements, were getting 34 cwt. a year as compared with a coal miner, who could get approximately 5 tons a year of concessionary coal.
The third great achievement of my noble Friend is that he is rapidly putting an end to that dreadful process which I dubbed in 1950 "the scourge of rural England", the opencast mining of coal. Who was the principal protagonist of opencast coal mining in those days? None other than the then Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power, the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens). Upon an unprecedented occasion in 1950, so rattled did the right hon. Gentleman become by my attacks upon opencast coal mining, which I made on behalf of farmers and residents in rural areas, that he actually flew into print in the correspondence columns of the Daily Telegraph, trying to rebut what he said in those days were the fallacious arguments of the hon. Member for Kidderminster. I wanted to end opencast coal mining. What hypocritical arguments the right hon. Gentleman put before the House this afternoon. The third achievement, therefore, of my noble Friend is that we are now in sight of the end of opencast coal mining and——
Sir Albert Braithwaite: No, we are not.
Mr. Nabarro: My hon. Friend has had a close association with these matters for many years. [Interruption.] Did I
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hear my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) say that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Sir A. Braithwaite) had made a lot of money out of it?
Sir A. Braithwaite: That is a very unreasonable remark to make.
Mr. Nabarro: I was about to compliment my hon. Friend on bringing opencast methods from North America to this country in the early war years. It was essentially an emergency wartime measure. It was the right hon. Member for Blyth who announced in this House in 1950 that he expected to see the end of opencast coal mining by 1953, but it has dragged on for a long while after that. I am not satisfied that it is being wound up as rapidly as it ought to be.
As I have said, the third important achievement of my noble Friend is that he is greatly accelerating the winding up of opencast coal mining with, I believe, great economic benefit to the rural areas. I hope that he will be in office after the next General Election to witness its final demise. My noble Friend, in his period of office, has proved resolute, perspicacious and intelligent—much more so than many earlier Ministers of Fuel and Power. He is my fuel and power pin-up.
Various adjectives have been applied to the coal position today. Incidentally, I see that I have driven my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West from the Chamber. Some have called the coal position grim, and some have called it hopeless. [HON. MEMBERS: "What does the hon. Member call it?"] I call it worrying. Mining Members opposite, by which I mean hon. Members who sit for predominantly mining constituencies, will recall that I said in the last coal debate in the House on the subject of stocks that I regarded an economic figure for stocks as 50 million tons, or about one calendar quarter's reserve, assuming a total rate of output of 200 million tons a year. I still take that view. I do not quarrel with the right hon. Member for Blyth as to what should be our anticipated coal output during the next four or five years. I think that it should be about 200 million tons per annum and that we should endeavour to maintain stocks at about 50 million tons.

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Today, stocks are 44·7 million tons, made up of 29·2 million tons of undistributed stocks and 15·5 million tons of distributed stocks. In the passage of the next ten weeks, before the commencement of the coal winter—and I hope that it is a cold winter as well, to burn up more coal—I believe that stocks will rise from 44·7 million tons to 50 million tons. I reckon that at the commencement of the coal winter, on 1st November, we shall have an aggregation of distributed and undistributed stocks of approximately 50 million tons.
Mr. Roy Mason: This is an interesting theory and I know that the hon. Member has said this before, but what about the difficulty of getting stocking grounds? No doubt the hon. Member is conversant with the fact that the Coal Board loses more than 10s. per ton on every ton stocked, which means that £25 million will be lost on a stock of 50 million tons, and yet the hon. Member is constantly attacking the Board for not making a profit. Already, £15 million has been lost on stocking, plus the fact that £150 million is locked op.
Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Member will know that pre-war we normally retained one quarter's reserve of coal. This is not £250 million of public money that if locked up, because from that will be deducted distributed stocks paid for by private industry, nationalised industry, merchants and householders at rebated summer prices. For example, my last task before coming to the House today was to order my winter coke—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hurrah."]—at summer prices, at an economy of 21s. 7d. per ton.
Mr. J. Langford-Holt: My hon. Friend has been a long time about it.
Mr. Nabarro: My hon. Friend does not understand about coke
Mr. Langford-Holt: I thought that my hon. Friend said "coal".
Mr. Nabarro: I do not burn coal. I burn coke, because it is entirely smokeless, in support of the clean air policy.
It is not that kind of public money that is wrapped up in these coal stocks, but I foresee that we cannot go above
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50 million tons of coal in stock. That is the economic figure. There must be in sight a curtailment of coal output unless we risk going above that figure which I regard as an optimum.
Another reason why I think that we must limit our stocking to 50 million tons is that the Board's finances will not run to any more. We have authorised huge sums in borrowing powers to finance these large stocks. Shortly after the forthcoming General Election, which I fancy will take place on 29th October, 1959, one of the first duties of my right hon. Friends will be to consider the financial position of the National Coal Board, for if stocks rise above 50 million tons the concomitant will be to authorise further borrowing powers for the Board. I say that that is unnecessary.
Urgent steps should be taken. I am not far removed from the right hon. Member for Blyth. I believe in the sanctity of commercial contracts, of course, but it is much cheaper to break the contracts with the opencast operators and pay them compensation than to mine the coal and put it on the ground at the high stocking cost to which the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) referred.
Last year, we mined by opencast methods 14 million tons of coal, the highest figure in our history. In a critical debate a few months ago, my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General suggested that the figure should be reduced to 11 million tons. I told him that he was wrong and that he ought to have reduced the figure to 5 million tons. He laughed that off and said that that was too steep a rundown. Today, my right hon. Friend is talking in terms of 7 million tons. He is coming towards me much more rapidly than he generally does. I have no doubt that in twelve months he will be with me completely.
I say, "Abolish opencast mining next year." I am not worried about the so-called expensive plant and equipment engaged in opencast mining. Practically the whole of it may be employed for alternative civil engineering. It may be used for road building, for quarrying, for opencast iron-ore winning. It may be used for a multiplicity of purposes. These artificial arguments adduced over the years about capital locked up in

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opencast mining equipment are very largely fallacious.
The first objective to help the deep-mined coal industry should be to abolish opencast mining before the end of 1960, paying compensation if necessary—the Coal Board to pay that compensation.
Mr. Harold Finch: Oh.
Mr. Nabarro: I hope that the hon. Member will not laugh before I have finished my sentence. Payment of that compensation would be much cheaper than the cost of putting 5 million or 7 million tons of opencast coal per annum into disused quarries and on stocking sites, with no determination at all as to when it could be used. I believe that is bad business, and I want to advance that point to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary.
Mr. Mason: First of all, the hon. Member saddles the Coal Board with £25 million loss on 50 million tons of stock, plus a greater loss because of the deterioration of the coal. Now he also saddles the Board with compensation for closing down opencast mines. The hon. Member is being hypocritical in his arguments. Time and time again in the House he has abused the Board, hook, line, and sinker, because it has not made a profit. Now he saddles the Board with more loss.
Mr. Nabarro: May I correct the hon. Member for the second time? Twice he has imputed to me the statement that 50 million tons of coal are held in stock by the Coal Board.
Mr. Mason: That is what the hon. Member was advancing.
Mr. Nabarro: I did not say that. I said that at the beginning of the coal winter there would be an aggregation of 50 million tons in stock, and, out that, 17 million or 18 million tons will be distributed stocks. The Board does not finance those. The other 32 million tons is held in stock by the Board, but I am trying to prevent that total stock rising further. I say that it is cheaper to cancel contracts for opencast coal and pay compensation than to face heavy stocking costs over an indefinite period.
Sir Peter Roberts Sir Peter Roberts (Sheffield, Heeley) rose——
Mr. Nabarro: I am trying very hard to make my speech, but I will give way once more.
Sir P. Roberts: My hon. Friend is adducing an argument on prices and costs but he has not directed himself at all to the fact that opencast mining is the cheapest form of coal-getting we have.
Mr. Nabarro: I will do so in due course. Let me deal with these points first.
The second point concerns power-station oil. I think that this has been somewhat exaggerated. The tonnage of oil consumed at British power stations in 1958 was 2·6 million. Allowing for the difference in calorific value and converting it to a coal equivalent, that is about 3¼ million tons of coal. There are certain power stations which we could not swing back to coal. For example, nobody would suggest that we should convert Bankside, a mile down the road from here, which, for reasons accepted in all parts of the House, was designed for oil burning and should be operated on oil.
I am in favour of switching all the remainder of the oil-burning stations back to coal as quickly as possible, again, if necessary, paying compensation, because in my view the compensation would be smaller than the cost of stocking coal. I am not alone in this. Mr. S. P. Chambers, deputy-chairman and incoming chairman of I.C.I. in place of Sir Alexander Fleck, addressing the Oxford farming conference in January of this year, made a similar point, commenting:
"There are power stations just erected, some indeed still being erected, based upon oil, and some of these are in the centre of mining areas where there is a surplus of British coal and where British coal would be far cheaper, and far more economical than the imported oil. You might say that that is absolutely crazy, and it is. It is due not to any viciousness, but to a miscalculation made some 3½ years ago as to the availability of coal. But we must take a long view and we must use our own coal—for it is cheaper."
He is the incoming chairman of I.C.I. and he was making a speech to a farming conference. He is in no way biassed in his outlook in these matters.
In 1955 nobody could have been more critical of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd), during his tenure of office as

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Minister of Fuel and Power, than myself. I am often erroneously attributed with having driven him from office by my criticism. A large number of those criticisms for strategic reasons were directed to the increasing use of oil. We must, however, face the facts that in 1955 our marginal deficit of coal had to be met by imports and by a greater integration of oil fuel. The pendulum has now swung too far the other way. I would therefore stop oil burning in power stations at the earliest moment. I would pay compensation, knowing it to be cheaper than stocking coal on the surface.
A good deal has been said about the value of investment in coal mines. May I say something in defence of alternative fuels? We have invested in coal £598 million in the period between 1947 and 1958. In approximately the same period we have invested in United Kingdom oil refineries and oil installations about £300 million, and in addition to the £300 million invested in this country we have invested a further sum of about £900 million of British money in refineries, oil pipelines and tankers, oversea. The British investment—I stress, the British investment—in oil production, transportation and processing at refineries at home and abroad is hugely greater than the British investment in coal.
It is also hugely more productive. I am not disparaging the coal industry. Last year the coal industry earned £20 million by exports. The petroleum products exports from this country were £105 million, five times as great. Even allowing for the whole of the imported oil refined here balanced against outgoings in various forms, there is still a net gain to our balance of payments in respect of the oil industry.
Mr. Arthur Palmer: Surely that is not a fair comparison. The coal is used to manufacture goods for export.
Mr. Nabarro: I agree, but if the hon. Member will allow me to continue my argument a moment I will deal with that part of the oil refined here which is not exported.
I compared the direct exports of coal at £20 million with the direct exports of petroleum products at £105 million. Let us take that part of the consumption for each of these fuels which is retained in
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this country to promote the export trade. Certainly coal is indispensable for electricity and gas, but oil is equally indispensable.
No doubt due to the shortage of time in which to make his speech, my right hon. Friend did not refer to the huge diversification of petroleum and petroleum products which are of an essential character when we produce fuel oil. For example, a balanced refinery production schedule includes motor spirit, derv fuel, marine fuel, aero fuel and oils, all rail fuel oil, lubricants and grease, road-making materials, fuel and domestic oil. We cannot produce economically that huge diversity of petroleum and petroleum products without producing fuel oil in large quantities.
The most important of all those products which I mentioned, of course, is motor spirit. We now have about 7½ million vehicles in this country, of which about 7 million are propelled by petrol, as opposed to diesel oil. To produce the huge quantity of refined motor spirit needed for these vehicles makes it indispensable for economic refinery production purposes that we produce pari passu with it all these other refined products. It is, therefore, valueless for coal-mining spokesmen to cavil at the increase in the consumption of petrol and petroleum products in this country.
It was the Leader of the Opposition—and I say this in no spirit of partisanship—who said at the Labour Party Conference last year that he hoped that in the passage of time every family in this country would have a motor car. So do I. But these cars have to be fuelled, and to produce this vast quantity of motor fuel means that all these other products have to be produced, notably fuel oil, otherwise there is no proper balance. The mining community must surely face the fact that this is not unfair competition. On the contrary, it is all part of the pattern of fuel production and distribution in this country and it would be an impossible state of affairs—no Labour Government would dare to do it—to discriminate by fiscal or other means against the use of petroleum or petroleum products in any shape or form. If they attempted to do so they would so unbalance the delicate arrangements for the production of diversified petroleum and petroleum products at our refineries as

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to cause irreparable damage to what is today one of our major industries and certainly one of our major exports. No Labour Government would dare to do it.
Mr. William Blyton: Mr. Neville Chamberlain did that very thing in 1935.
Mr. Nabarro: We have come a long way since then. The hon. Member's trouble is that he is living in the world of 1935. I am not. I am living in 1975. [HON. MEMBERS: "H. G. Wells."] I am not an H. G. Wells. He was a Socialist. In all fairness to the hon. Member I would point out that certain things were done in 1935 when we had only 2 million motor vehicles in this country, and possibly even fewer.
If he wants a justification for oil why should he not consider what the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) did as Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was the first person in this country to give a real impetus to the conversion of coal burning plants to oil burning plants at the end of the war. This was prior to the coal supply breakdown at the beginning of 1947, when he had been advised by his right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) that it was quite impossible for the coal industry to match the increased and increasing demands. Therefore the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland gave special advantages to those who were prepared to convert their plants from coal to oil. But once industrialists do that they cannot easily be persuaded to convert them back again in a hurry.
Mr. Moss: Has the hon. Member changed his view that the use of oil in this country should be subject to careful scrutiny, partly for strategic reasons and partly because it is imported? Has he forgotten that that is what he wrote in 1952 in "Ten Steps to Power"?
Mr. Nabarro: Yes, and I can justify every word of what I wrote in that document—which sold out many editions. We must bear in mind that in those days, immediately following the fall of the last Labour Government, the country was having power cuts on many days weekly and there was a huge deficit of energy and coal. We had to pursue a policy of restriction for a few years. Further, nuclear power had not even made
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its first appearance. That is why I advocated a very stern policy of fuel rationalisation and economy. I wish that policy had been followed. If it had, hundreds of millions of pounds of national capital investment would have been saved. But the situation today is that, far from there being any marginal deficiency of fuel of any kind, there is an abundance of fuel of every kind—coal, fuel oil and natural gas—in every part of the world.
I want to say a word in pursuit of the supplementary question which I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer today, when he was reporting to us upon his visit to Stockholm. I was not fooling when I asked him whether he remembered to remind the representatives of the Seven nations that we have 30 million tons of surplus coal in stock. The right hon. Member for Blyth was not far removed from me in that respect. I have no doubt that he has travelled in Northern Europe, as I have, every year since the end of the war.
One of the saddest features of travelling around Scandinavia today is the fact that Denmark, Norway and Sweden, who, before the war, were among the largest users of British coal—for the same ships that took our coal to central Sweden brought Swedish timber back to this country, on a very economic basis—now use practically no British coal at all. They buy in Russia, Poland and all sorts of quarters other than Britain. They do this because it is cheaper. The Polish coal is heavily subsidised for export purposes.
I was not fooling when I told the Chancellor that I was very cross with him. He did not answer my supplementary question. Perhaps he was misled by the end of it, when I asked Mr. Speaker when we were going to commence the coal debate. It was a lead into the debate, and it was intended as such. But is was also intended to have its serious aspect. As my right hon. Friend would not answer me this afternoon he may have a Parliamentary Question from me next Tuesday asking whether he warned the Norwegians, Swedes and Danes that if we are to give them concessions, for example, in regard to Danish bacon, it might be a good idea if some special concessions were given to British coal. The re-establishment of these coal markets should form a part of every trade agreement that we seek to make in Western Europe.

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A highly critical speech was made by the right hon. Member for Blyth, but he did not tell us what he would do in the calamitous event of a Socialist Government coming into office next November. I want to put a few pointed questions to the Opposition spokesman who will wind up for the party opposite. In order to increase the demand for coal, would the Socialists mutilate the nuclear power programme? Would they curtail it, or prolong it? At present it is based upon 18 million tons of coal equivalent saved by 1966. Do they propose to mutilate or prolong that programme? If they do they run the risk of impairing the progress of what may well be one of Britain's greatest national assets in the next decade. I hope that they will answer this question.
Secondly, do they propose to be led along by the nose by Mr. Ernest Jones, president of the National Union of Mine-workers? He said that he would fiscally penalise oil and imperil balanced refinery production, and the £105 million worth of petroleum products which are exported, by putting a special tax on fuel oil. He has advocated that, and the National Union of Mineworkers has supported it. There are many members of the National Union of Mineworkers sitting opposite. Do they support Mr. Jones? I want to know. [Interruption.] There are no members of that union on this side of the Committee. Will their spokesman tell me, when he winds up for his side, whether it is the intention of the party opposite, in the calamitous event of a Labour Government succeeding in November, 1959, to put a tax on fuel oil? Let us have an answer to that question.
Mr. Joseph Slater: Tedious repetition.
Mr. Nabarro: It is not tedious repetition. We are waiting for an answer. The National Union of Mineworkers suggested it, and I am waiting for an answer.
On 6th February last the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Blyton) advocated a tax on fuel oil. Has he departed from that view? May we have an answer from his front bench tonight? I would prefer it from the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, for I shall have a lot to say
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about it at the hustings, if the party opposite advocate a tax on fuel oil tonight?
Thirdly, do they really suggest that consumer freedom of choice among fuels should be restricted by Governmental action, or by action of the nationalised industries—or both? It would make a very useful talking point for all my canvassers in the forthcoming Election if they made a suggestion of that kind.
Fourthly, do they suggest that uneconomic pits should be kept in operation, as historical institutions or ancient monuments? Or do they think that they should be shut down as quickly as possible, so that production could be concentrated in the most economical and profitable pits? It was the right hon. Member for Easington, in a Labour Government, who wrote into the coal nationalisation Statute of 1947 the requirement that the National Coal Board should pay its way, taking one year with another. It should still pay its way.
They are four very pertinent questions for the Opposition to answer. They have moved a Motion of censure today in regard to Her Majesty's Government's policy on coal and associated fuels. Let them tell us, before the debate ends tonight, exactly what answers they would give to those four questions, for if they have nothing better to advocate than our present policies, which I warmly espouse, they will be failing in their duty as a virile and vigorous Opposition. Moreover they should tell us before the General Election, because I, for one, want to use these important matters in every speech I make in the Parliamentary constituency of Kidderminster.
6.20 p.m.
Mr. Harold Finch: Whatever terms the Paymaster-General or the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) may use to describe the present situation of the mining industry, there can be no doubt that it is facing a very serious and critical time, and I am convinced that unless special measures are taken by the Government to deal with this position there will be considerable unemployment in some of our coalfields.
Reference has already been made to our coal stocks. If they do not represent a crisis, I do not know what does.

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Everywhere, millions of tons of coal are being stocked, and those of us from the mining constituencies, at least, are fully aware that that stocking entails a great deal of cost to the National Coal Board, to say nothing of the difficulty, mounting week by week, of finding space for the stocks. If space cannot be found for the coal, increasing unemployment is bound to result.
It is obvious, therefore, that the industry is in a critical situation. This is in no small measure due to the policy of the Government. They bear a heavy responsibility here. The credit squeeze and the slowing down of industrial expansion left a serious mark on the industry, and now, when things are improving to some extent, oil is a serious competitor. Just when there are some signs of improvement, oil is being consumed at a greater rate and is taking the place of coal.
The last occasion on which we faced such a drop in the demand for coal was in the 'thirties. I do not want to hark back too much to the past, but let us look at what the situation then was. We were faced with a serious drop in coal consumption, which was accompanied by mass unemployment and the misery and poverty that percolated from the mining areas through the general economy. Up to now, we have been able to avoid that, because we have a nationalised coal industry that has been able to stock the coal. It has preferred to do that than to put men on the road. On the other hand, it has reabsorbed large numbers of men declared redundant in the pits, and has done so for some years.
In the 'thirties, when the pits were privately owned, men were dismissed as redundant and forced on to unemployment benefit and the Poor Law but, in the 'fifties, when quite a large number of pits have closed, the majority of the men declared redundant have been reabsorbed into the industry, and have been paid redundancy pay. All that has been accomplished by a nationalised industry
In another place—last week, I think—the Minister of Power said that for some years pits have been closing at an average rate of 20 a year, owing to exhaustion, but the men have been reabsorbed. We now know that because of the economic situation 36 pits are earmarked for
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closure this year. I think that 28 or 29 have already closed——
Mr. Blyton: It will be 50 next year.
Mr. Finch: About 1,000 of the men involved are still redundant and in receipt of unemployment benefit—the majority being in the South Wales coalfield, in Northumberland and Cumberland. The policy that has been pursued is a credit to the Coal Board and to the National Union of Mineworkers. Their joint efforts have kept unemployment to a minimum, and in the present circumstances the Minister of Labour has a great deal to thank them for.
I submit, however, that if there are to be further closures—and here we come to the issue—it will be difficult, if not impossible, to reabsorb large numbers of men. We are now coming up against the real difficulty, and it is most unfortunate that we have not before us today the revised plan of the Coal Board. We adjourn next week for the Summer Recess, and we shall not meet again until October.
This plan may well contain proposals that will mean pit closures. Some of us represent mining constituencies in which large numbers of miners are unemployed, but we shall not be able to discuss the plan here until October. It is true that it may not come into operation until next year, but I hope that when Parliament resumes a very early opportunity will be taken to look at it.
I would point out that if pits are to close and our miners find themselves out of work they will not remain silent. If the pits are to close without there being other work available, there will be a hue and cry in the coalfields. It is not the first time in their long history that the miners have voiced in no uncertain way their opinions on economic planning, and they will do so again.
If a local colliery closes down—and I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) referred to this—it spells disaster to the community. Many of our colliery villages depend on the colliery. A mining village's housing estate, its travel facilities, its educational system all revolve around its pit, and if the pit closes without there being work available it needs little imagination to understand what results. I want hon. Members opposite

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to picture that situation. It is all very well to sit here in comfort, but these men some of whom may have earned fairly good money will find themselves out of work. It is the duty of this or of any other Government to maintain the community life of our people. That is the first consideration and, in these circumstances, that is the duty of the present Government.
It is for that very reason that we on this side have pressed on a number of occasions for a more vigorous application of the provisions of the Distribution of Industry Act. During the last two and a half years we have said that there was a need to plan ahead. Indeed, some of us were very sceptical about the industry's future two years ago. We had an idea that things were not as they should be. As I say, we have pressed the Government to prepare their plans for the establishment of industries—in South Wales, in particular, and in Durham and Scotland.
That has been the principal feature of our debates on Welsh and Scottish affairs, but, until recently, the Government have put the Distribution of Industry Act into cold storage. Only in recent months have they shown some interest in it.
Therefore, for that reason, I put it to the Parliamentary Secretary that if we are to have a plan for the Coal Board it should not only be a plan for the Board itself, but should be one which will show where the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Labour fit in, and indicate the provision of employment for a long way ahead. I agree with my right hon. Friend that if there is to be further closing of pits it must be phased over a period of time, to allow the Board of Trade and other Departments to work together in a spirit of co-operation to find employment for those men who cannot be absorbed into the industry. In other words, it is not something that we can leave entirely to the Coal Board.
Quite apart from this, the Government have an obligation to the miners and the mining industry. First, they have a moral obligation. Throughout the years, coal has been the foundation of the British economy. We could not have lived without it. While there may have been troubles and difficulties, in war as
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well as in peace, the miners have kept the wheels of industry going.
Mr. Arthur Probert (Aberdare): They worked on Saturdays.
Mr. Finch: I agree with my hon. Friend. They worked on Saturdays, when workers in many other industries were not doing so. They supplied the nation with the necessary fuel by which industry could work, and, in these circumstances, I think that for that reason alone there is a great moral obligation on the Government.
Looking back over a period of years on what coal and coal miners have done for this nation, surely one of the first considerations today should be what we can do in the present crisis to assist this industry and the men employed in it. Apart from that, the obligation is all the more evident when it is realised that this industry has had to carry heavy burdens and severe penalties. What have they been? The cost of importation of coal to the amount of £70 million and full liability for mining subsidence.
What is worse, until recently the industry has been unable to operate as a commercial concern. In past years, by any ordinary commercial standards, in which hon. Members opposite believe, the Coal Board would have been justified in increasing the price of industrial coal, but the hands of the Board were tied, and it was unable to increase the price. That may have been in the interests of economy, but it is a debt which the people and Government of the country owe to the miners. The Coal Board's hands were tied, and it could not operate as an ordinary commercial concern.
Now that the industry is faced with all these difficulties at this moment, when it is faced with the competition of oil and with declining markets, it is told that it can operate as a commercial concern. The Minister of Power, Lord Mills, has said "Yes, we can go on now; we can enter the race," but the industry begins under a very heavy handicap. It is like a horse going on a racecourse half-starved, with a very heavy burden upon it, while Lord Mills says, "Go on. Have a go." The industry has never been able to compete before as an ordinary commercial concern, but now it is allowed to do so.

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If the Coal Board had been allowed to operate as an ordinary commercial concern in years gone by, it would now have millions of pounds in hand. It would have been able to have accumulated about £400 million. It would have been able to compete with oil, and able to meet on level terms the competition of the oil industry. It had been deprived of that opportunity and has been handicapped in this struggle, which is an unequal one. The least that the Government can do in these circumstances is to see what financial aid can be given to the industry in this crisis, if only for a temporary period.
After all, the oil industry has the reserves. No oil firms could do what they are doing now and sell fuel oil at less than the economic price if they had not the necessary reserves or the excess profits from many of their subsidiary undertakings. When the mines were nationalised, the interest paid to the coal owners was 2½ per cent., but since then it has gone up to 5 per cent. and even 6 per cent., which the Coal Board has had to meet. For the first five years of nationalisation, the interest payments were £15 million per year. Last year, they were £32 million. I agree that this was partly due to increased borrowing, but largely it was due to the monetary policy of the Government.
I would remind the House of what the Government did when this country ran into a balance of payments crisis. The Government sought and obtained permission from the United States to waive the interest payments. They went to America and said, "We are in difficulties; waive the interest payments for the time being," and they were able to get away with it. I submit that, in these circumstances, it is not too much to ask the Government to do the same for the mining industry as they have asked the Americans to do in connection with the balance of payments crisis. This is a financial question.
Is it too much to say to the electricity industry that the new power stations proposed to be operated on oil should be operated instead on coal? Is there anything unreasonable about that? This crisis is not due in any way to prices. That has not been the position, because the Paymaster-General said very clearly this afternoon that it was due to the
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fact that we were suffering a shortage of coal at that time, and that it was intended to go over to oil. This is not a question of economics, or of price. Therefore, it is not too much to ask, when the employment of thousands of our men depends upon it, that 11 or 14 power stations should be using coal and that arrangements should now be made accordingly.
What applies to the electricity industry certainly applies to the gas industary. I do not want to criticise the gas industry for the experiments which it is making at the moment, because it is showing initiative and enterprise. It must look to the future, but I do say that, since the coal industry has been the pioneer and the economic foundation of this country, it is not too much to ask the gas industry to restrict oil consumption.
I look with alarm on the experiments conducted by the gas industry in the use of liquid methane. I should have thought that this was contrary to all Tory philosophy. The Tories have always said that we should make ourselves less dependent upon countries abroad and imports from them, but this is a policy which will make us more dependent on imports from abroad. We have already been reminded that for years it has been the policy of the party opposite, supported by my own party, to assist the agricultural industry. It has been done to give support to home production and to avoid the necessity for imports as far as we possibly could. We say that the same policy should apply to the coal industry in the present situation.
It is unnecessary for me to remind the House that we are living in an age of great scientific achievement and technical improvement, in which there is a continually increasing application of mechanisation to industry. That is so in the mining industry. On a five-day week basis, deep-mined coal production is about the same this year as it was last year, but with 30,000 fewer men. The industry is now reaping the harvest of past capital expenditure, and it would be a calamity if help was not given to the industry in these circumstances. I am confident that, given fair competition and proper and adequate assistance, the industry can maintain and improve the prosperity of this country.

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Here I should like to reply to a point made by the hon. Member for Kidderminster. We on this side of the House want to do nothing to impede the advance of atomic power. We believe that atomic energy will mean for the workers fewer hours of employment. After all, who wants to go into the pit if energy can be supplied on the surface? But, as my right hon. Friend has said, this must be planned. Planning, however, is alien to Tory philosophy. When planning is mentioned there is a feeling of scepticism among the Tory Party. We want nuclear energy and atomic energy to be planned. These are great sources of power and they can mean fewer hours of employment. During the period 1919 to 1926 the miners enjoyed a 7½-hour day. That was thirty years ago.
Mr. J. Griffiths: It happened forty years ago.
Mr. Finch: But that was taken from us. Surely it is not too much to say today that, in view of the increased productivity, miners should be entitled to a restitution of a shorter working week.
Meantime, coal must and will remain our main source of energy for years to come. If we neglect it, then, bearing in mind the continued trouble that we get in the Middle East, we shall do so at our peril. We are passing through a serious phase. If, in this panic, we do not limit the use of oil, it will be at our peril. I agree that oil has come to stay, but must we make other industries dependent upon oil for the major pant of the energy that they require? In the bowels of the earth we have millions of tons of coal. It is the only raw material that we have. Without it, our economy would be no different from that of Ireland. It is ours to use to the best advantage. If the Coal Board is given a square deal, in co-operation with the men in the industry, it can maintain and improve the prosperity of the people.
6.44 p.m.
Mr. J. C. George: It would be folly on our part to think that there is not deep anxiety in the mining areas. I have lived all my life in mining areas. We have seen ups and downs throughout the century, but never before has our anxiety been so deep or widespread. But when hon. Members opposite
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are assessing the situation they should not exaggerate it, for it is bad enough without exaggeration.
The right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) made a comment with which I thoroughly agree. He said that all industry today, whether private or nationalised, must have a social purpose and conscience. In the free enterprise sector in recent years we have seen a remarkable appreciation of that responsibility. I spent some time in Hobart House recently, where I found a very deep appreciation of the social needs of the situation as reflected in the mining industry. The redundancy situation so far has been handled with great skill. The Coal Board has not caused a great deal of unemployment and there is no reason to think—I say this in all seriousness—that it is planning to create vast pools of unemployment.
This great industry is not dying. We must retain the skill in the industry so that its future can be a rising and not a declining future. The Coal Board's plans are to retain the maximum number of skilled men within this industry. The new plans are being drawn up with that aim in view, and I repeat that the Coal Board will not create vast areas of unemployment throughout the country.
The Coal Board is charged with not planning the whole of the industry sufficiently. It must be evident to anyone that any industry can retain its position only if it retains its customers. The coal industry has failed to retain its customers. We can ignore for the moment the causes, but the fact is that the industry has failed to retain its customers and, therefore, it has lost its planned place—perhaps its over-planned place—in the national economy.
Whatever we may say of other spheres, we cannot be charged with a lack of planning in the coal industry. We had the 1950 plan, the 1956 plan and now we have the 1959 plan. We have been planning all the time, but the plans have been going wrong on the technical and marketing sides. There is no need to try to hide the fact that some of the factors which have been making inroads into home sales in recent years will continue. The main factor, I believe, is the price—though I agree we had a recession. Since 1951 the price of oil has gone up by 7 per cent. while the price

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of coal has gone up by 50 per cent. in the same period. The cumulative effect of these factors has been to put the industry into its present position.
Oil is a very seductive opponent. It is cheaper and cleaner, and lends itself readily to automatic control. We do not need to keep stocks. Supplies are readily available and the quality is always constant. These are important factors. It was the party opposite who, quite rightly, brought oil into industry and introduced industry to switch over to oil by removing the tax from it. In industry the feeling got around that oil was preferable in many ways to coal, and not merely in terms of the price. So it is here to stay. It is a very serious competitor which must be faced. I do not think the coal industry intends to lie down under that competition, but it is here to stay and the industry might as well face it.
The chairman of the Coal Board said that sales had gone down by 20 million tons between 1955 and 1958, and we know that they are down by 10·3 million tons this year already I believe that sales dropped by about 10·3 million tons last year. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) said, sales will have dropped probably by 14 million or 15 million tons by the time the coal year starts. On the bald facts of the situation, things look desperate, but, looking into the situation as we must, is it really so desperate as that? We must analyse the facts and spend a little time to see whether we are really down by 10·3 million tons this year and, if so, whether that really means that we have lost markets for 10·3 million tons or whether we can recover them.
Sales to the electricity boards dropped by 1·1 million tons in the first twenty-eight weeks of this year, but stocks have been run down to that extent, and that is a nonrecurring lost. Stocks may be reduced further—I do not know—but that loss is a non-recurring one, and we can look forward to recovering that amount. Sales to the gas industry are down 1·4 million tons in the first twenty-eight weeks of the year. We must be quite frank about this. In one of his less wise speeches, the chairman of the National Coal Board criticised the gas industry very severely and, I thought, very unfairly. The gas
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industry must live in a world of intense competition; it has been losing customers year by year and paying more for its coal year by year.
If the Coal Board is losing trade with the gas industry, then the remedy possibly lies in its own hands. The gas industry cannot stand still and watch its trade disappear because the prices it charges must rise with the rising price of coal. It has to take steps to remain alive. I suggest that the way to approach the gas industry is to try to meet what it is plainly stating is its need. The gas boards say that they are driven to using alternatives to coal because of the price of coal. Instead of lambasting the gas industry, the chairman of the Coal Board should go along with proposals in an attempt to meet the real trouble in the gas industry, namely, the price of coal. I believe that he could retain that trade, and the signs are that it should be possible to do it in the not too distant future.
Coke has taken 2 million tons less. We can recover that 2 million tons, and more, as the years go on. Supplies to the railways are down by 0·6 million tons. That is lost for ever. Supplies to the steel industry are down by 0·5 million, and I believe we can recover this. The figure for industry is down by 1 million, the figure for house coal is down by 1·3 million, and exports are down by 1·4 million tons.
I have looked at the position in every industry which contributed to the loss of 10·3 million tons. I claim that 6·3 million tons of it can be recovered. I have not analysed the 20 million tons, and I do not believe that there were 20 million tons lost in the two years; at any rate, I have not analysed that figure. Out of the 10·3 million, I believe that we can recover 6·3 million, and I believe that quite a proportion of the 20 million tons can be recovered in the future. The loss of 30 million tons about which the chairman spoke, desperate as it looked, is not so serious when analysed.
There is keen competition from oil which is, as I said, a very seductive opponent. We must look at what is happening in this area of intense competition and consider what can be done. In 1955 coal supplied 87 per cent. of the needs of industry, and oil supplied 13 per cent. Now, the position has changed;

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coal supplies only 75 per cent. of the need and oil's share is 25 per cent. That is an indication of the progress which oil has made. It has meant a loss in the industrial market of 5 million tons a year. We should not lie down under it. We can recover if we follow the right plan.
We have been told today about what should be done, and I believe that we must look at everything that is put before us. First, there is the closure of collieries. The right hon. Member for Blyth, in the last debate we had a few weeks ago, said that he wanted to close the 160 collieries which, he said, were losing over £1 a ton. I cannot find any confirmation of that figure; I could not get it from the Coal Board, and I should like to know where the information comes from. These things are important.
The right hon. Gentleman said then, and he agreed today, that collieries must be closed in the course of time. Grossly uneconomic collieries are a drag on the industry in its fight back, and they must go. They are planned to go. We are told, in the National Coal Board's Annual Report, that 28 million tons of output will, by planning, be put out of commission before 1971. This closing down of collieries—I emphasise this in the hope that people will realise it in the coalfields—will be done in a way which will not cause vast pools of unemployment in the mining areas.
We have been stocking coal and nobody has suggested that we can go on stocking coal indefinitely. Obviously, stocking must stop at the end of the year. I do not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) when he says that three months' stock is the right thing for the winter. There is far too much coal in stock. There is no doubt about that. At no time before the war did the industry retain three months' stock for the winter. I think that everyone will agree that we can no longer have the cushion which stocking has given us.
It has been suggested that we should convert power stations back to coal. I agree, but I do not consider that it is a job for the Ministry. It is the boards which have entered into the contracts and it is the boards which have a duty to see that they use the most economic
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means of production. The National Coal Board should, in the ordinary commercial way, go to the boards and make a proposition, saying, "We believe that we can generate your current for you more cheaply than oil can do it, and here is what we suggest". In America, that is being done just now. In the United States, there is a great deal of dumping of oil below cost price. The power boards, the miners and the various concerns associated with the coal industry have appointed a committee of eminent men to go thoroughly into the matter and to ask the utility people to look at it from their angle and consider whether power can be produced in America by coal as cheaply as by oil, if not more cheaply.
Mr. Palmer: Surely, the hon. Gentleman is aware that, in some of the contracts at least, the price of oil is tied to the price of coal, so the economic factor does not enter into it.
Mr. George: I believe that directors of the oil companies of the world, not just of this country, are the best businessmen in the world, who can always put their case with great force and subtlety. The coal industry has not put its case with great force or subtlety. Quite frankly, I believe that this is a commercial matter between the National Coal Board and the electricity industry. I believe that they can get together and solve it themselves. The Government do not need to act on everything in this business. The people concerned can sort it out for themselves, and I sincerely hope that they will set about it.
What has the Minister done to help the situation? He has stopped two conversions, which will mean, in the early 'sixties, a saving of 4 million tons annually, and he has deferred the construction of another two stations, which will save 1 million tons in the period of deferment. He has now, in association with the National Coal Board, agreed to eliminate opencast mining over a period, and this will help the industry to the extent of 14 million tons.
Mr. Robens: Will the hon. Gentleman show us where the consistency of his argument lies? He told us earlier that to invite the oil, electricity and coal industries to try to get coal back into the power stations had nothing to do

1601
with the Minister, but now he is giving the Minister credit because he was the one who brought about the deferring of the conversions and the reduction in the number of stations to be oil-fired. In just what way does the Minister come into and go out of the hon. Gentleman's argument?
Mr. George: I did not say that the Minister alone had——
Mr. Robens: The hon. Gentleman did.
Mr. George: All right; I am quite prepared to accept that from the right hon. Gentleman. The point is that it has been done, and I do not care who did it. It has been a help to the industry. If all these things are done and the effect of them is added up, in a few years the industry will be receiving assistance to the tune of 18 million tons per annum from that source. It may look today as if the gap were 30 million tons or wider, but it really is a great deal less, probably about 20 million tons, as the permanent loss on present estimates. Against that can be set the 18 million tons by those steps which are to fructify in the next two years. Therefore, while the outlook is an anxious one and there is great concern in the mining areas, one sees, if one looks into it deeply and helpfully, as one must, that it cannot be described as grim.
I have said that I think that we want a plan to get back our old customers. I said this in the last debate. Today, hon. Members opposite have put forward suggestions for aid to the coal mining industry in many ways, but the Coal Board is not asking for aid. Its attitude towards the present crisis is clear. The deputy chairman of the Coal Board said in Coal, of June, 1958:
"We have had to embark on a very keen drive for efficiency and economy. We must compete effectively on equal terms with other fuels."
That was his outlook on how the future should be faced and how the industry should be saved.
The chairman of the National Coal Board in the "Iron and Coal Trade Review" of 9th January said:
"I am not going to give way to oil. I only recognise it as a formidable competitor. I do not accept that further encroachments by oil are inevitable. I am thinking about how we can get our lost customers back. The growing competition the Board could expect
1602
from oil depended upon how well it could manage to control the price of its coal. If it could reduce its prices, for example, the picture would be altered."
There is no weeping and wailing there about the position and no claim for assistance. The Coal Board is out to do the only thing which, to my mind, can save the industry, and that is to produce coal efficiently and to compete on equal terms with other fuels and to win back its markets on merit. I believe that that can be done.
Today, we have heard references to what has been happening in the industry this year. We on this side have been critical of the National Coal Board in many ways in the past, not unsympathetically. On occasion, I have taken it to task about the speed of capital development. It is very important that, in order to save the industry, new pits should come into production as quickly as possible. It is a good business tenet that if one proposes to spend money, it should be spent as fast as possible. We did not believe that the Coal Board was spending fast enough, especially in sinking shafts.
I am delighted to say that vast advances have been made recently in shaft sinking. I have often compared the speed of shaft sinking in South Africa with the speed here. I was afraid that we would take so long to learn how to sink shafts that we would learn only when we had no more shafts to sink. However, we brought across South African contractors and equipment and South African know-how, and brought about a rate of travel never before achieved in this country. It is a remarkable rate by our standards, but not by modern standards. Let us give credit to the Board for expediting the speed of shaft sinking by 200 or 300 per cent. in the last year or two. There has been a similar increase in progress in tunnel driving. These are important matters because they will bring the new collieries into production at an early date and will produce cheaper coal quickly.
Not only in the capital schemes are we seeing improvement, and I give full credit to those who have brought it about. Output was down by 3·6 million tons in the first 28 weeks of this year, but we are working with 22,000 men fewer than at the beginning of the year. As

1603
the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch) said, output with the five-day week is about the same as it was with the five-day week last year. It is quite an achievement that there is very little loss of output in spite of the fact that manpower has been reduced by 22,000. This means a saving of £12 million per annum in wages alone. Output per man saved is the main criterion for a step forward. This will be the saviour of the industry, and I think that it can go a great deal further than it has. There has been an improvement of 6 per cent. this year alone in overall figures. The same improvement has been shown at the coal face.
I believe that this vast and important industry, which plays such a vital part in the life of the country and will play a vital part for many years to come, can retain its position if it faces up to the issue that, on a price basis, it must compete with other fuels if it is to stay alive. Anything that is done temporarily will be no use unless the industry puts efficiency first. That is what it is doing, and I wish it well in the drive forward which it is making.
I am told by men in authority in the National Coal Board that they expect that improvement to continue. Therefore, what the chairman and deputy chairman said was their policy—to fight to get back their lost customers—is, I believe, the only plan for the coal industry. It must be efficient and must fight to win back the markets which it has lost. I believe that the industry can do it and I believe that it has made a good start along the right lines.
I do not believe that the position is in any way as hopeless or as serious as it has been made out to be. It is serious, but if the management and men realise that between them they have the saving of this industry in their hands—the Government have placed the tools in their hands to do it and the country has not grudged capital money for the development of the industry nor for the raising of the standards of the miners-then by their own exertions they can save the industry.
Finally, I should like to say a few words about Scotland, where there is grave anxiety. Every mining area has
1604
been seriously in the red for a long time. The chairman of the National Coal Board said in the "Coal Trade Review" of 29th May:
"One of our most important objectives is the concentration of productive effort in those working districts, those seams, those collieries, which provide the greatest opportunities of producing competitive tonnage."
He continued:
"The question we must constantly ask ourselves is: are we getting full value for money, and if not, what can we do about it?"
What I am afraid of is this. In the plan that is being made attention must inevitably be directed towards the areas showing the worst results. Almost inevitably, the most serious penalty will be inflicted upon them. If that is done, Scotland faces a pretty grim outlook, for it has the areas with the greatest losses over the longest periods, most strikes and most troubles, and I believe that the blow will fall heaviest in Scotland where we have had so much labour trouble. I calculate that Scotland has lost £73 million since nationalisation. Unless the two sides of the industry get together it may be that in future the miners and perhaps the management in Scotland will kill their own industry.
Now is the time, if there is common sense in the industry, to get together and face the issue which might lead Scotland's mining industry to the guillotine. I am certain that there are many pits which are showing heavy losses, but which, by co-operation and planning, can be made to pay. In the event of their not being improved the blow may fall over a fairly wide area. I appeal to the two sides in the industry in Scotland to get together to save their own industry, just as I believe it can be saved in Britain.
7.8 p.m.
Mr. Roy Mason: We on this side of the House are perturbed about the present situation in the industry and even more perturbed about its future. I am therefore pleased to follow the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George), because he spent some time talking about the future of the industry. He was a little more optimistic than I am. We have already had an intervention from the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), who, strangely enough, never mentioned a

1605
word about the future. He was too busy saddling the National Coal Board with more costs than it has at present.
I was perturbed that the Minister repeated time and time again that there was doubt about long-term prospects. I know that when talking about the future of the industry we must rely upon many calculations that can easily go wrong. Both the National Coal Board's Plan for Coal, in 1950, and Investing in Coal, in 1955, were wrecked completely because of Government action. When the hon. Member for Pollok talks about the industry getting together and planning its future, he must remember that it depends entirely on the behaviour of the Government whether the coal industry has any kind of chance.
Mr. Rupert Speir: Will the hon. Member say what was the estimated production in Investing in Coal, which was the Coal Board's plan in 1955?
Mr. Mason: In Investing in Coal, which was not published until early in 1956, the coal equivalent required by 1965 was put at 310 million tons. That is the figure that the Paymaster-General has mentioned many times in speeches in the House and again today. We have asked many times at Question Time how that 310 million tons was made up so that the constituent parts of the industry would be conversant with the rôles that they were expected to fulfil.
Hon. Member opposite must realise why the industry is in a grim situation. The 7 per cent. Bank Rate and the fiscal policy imposed upon the economy by the Government, resulting in two and a half years of deflation, have been more responsible than anything else for sinking the mining industry. The economy went soaring away without any control by the Government. Then, they had to impose the 7 per cent. Bank Rate, which has played a bigger part in sinking the industry than any other factor. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] If hon. Members dispute that, let them recall that in every industry, boards of directors immediately got together and started worrying about their bank overdrafts, how to cut down their overheads and how to stop weekend working and overtime. The deflation began and is still with us. That is one of the reasons for the state of
1606
the industry. I charge the Government with others, but that is the major one.
The hon. Member for Pollok analysed various industries and tried to discuss whether we had a chance of recovering the market lost by coal in each sector of industry. To begin with, the coal demand is still dwindling. There has been a catastrophic drop since 1957. It has not tailed off and we are still losing our markets. On the railways, dieselisation will continue and the market will not be regained. Electrification will come in a little and we might get a small proportion of the market back, but it will be negligible. I agree, therefore, with the hon. Member for Pollok that that is a market we have lost. Because of dieselisation, the railways will never get back to coal.
The Clean Air Act is my second charge against the Government. From the outset, that Act was biased against coal. It was not publicised in the national Press. The Coal Board is partly to blame, too. It is its duty to inform the nation of these things that harm the sale of its products. Everybody in smokeless zones thought that coal was a banned fuel and immediately began to turn to gas, electricity, oil and paraffin burners. Local authorities were not given sufficient notice. They should have been able to contact the Coal Board, so that, immediately smokeless zones were declared, the fuels, although few of them were available at the time, would be diverted to the smokeless zones.
Distribution has let us down badly. The Minister must take note of the recent report which asks that the small distributing companies throughout the country should band together into greater groups to tackle the problem of distribution. Last week, the Minister of Housing and Local Government had to bring in an Order so that the mechanical fuel stokers which burn smokeless fuels can be allowed in smokeless zones. This is another indication of how the Act came into being with a bias against coal.
What are the chances of getting those markets back? Feeling has been engendered against coal in every area where the Clean Air Act operates, and we cannot regain the market for coal. Cinemas, theatres, large schools and

1607
other buildings which had coal-burning apparatus have had to convert to oil. Now, the Minister has introduced his Order. Does he expect that this market will be regained? Of course not. That is another fault of the Government.
The gas industry is a typical example of Ministerial interference on a non-statutory basis as practised by every Minister on the Government Front Bench against the chairman of every nationalised industry. We had an example in the recent Report of the Select Committee on Estimates concerning the air corporations, when the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation interfered on a non-statutory basis with the Chairmen of B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. We have had the same thing on coal prices from the Minister of Power to the chairman of the Coal Board.
We get it, too, in the gas industry, where the Minister has purposely intensified competition between the chairmen of each board. He has been fostering the commercial profit instinct among the members of these boards and in the industry, too. The attitude now of each individual board is that "We shall swim and the rest can sink." That illustrates one of the differences between the two sides of the House. Every person who believes fundamentally in Socialism has as his basic aim to bring out the finest and noblest instincts in mankind. There is no higher aim than that. Time and time again, however, because of the sectional interests of the party opposite, we have seen the Government cynically exploiting the lesser instincts of mankind. They foster in the chairmen of the boards the instinct of greed for profit. This brings in its train fear of unemployment among the workers, including those in the mining industry.
In the main, we have lost the market in the gas industry. It is switching rapidly to oil, and I think that its liquid methane experiment will succeed. I do not quibble about this. Every nationalised industry has the right to try to better its own relationships, particularly with its immediate neighbours in fuel and power, and it has the right to try to prove that it is more adventurous than the rest.
In every branch of fuel and power, however, we are tending to rely too much on overseas sources of supplies. The gas
1608
industry, for example, relies on overseas for oil and for liquid methane. It is obvious that the Government have given the Gas Council the green light to go ahead and to ignore coal. It has told the gas industry that it is quite safe to do these things, particularly to importing oil. It is not easy to switch back again to a different form of fuel. In the main, therefore, this is another market that has been lost.
There is another example which, even though it is small, must not be overlooked, because this is a trend which has been increasing. The National Coal Board is developing a wise and sensible policy, and one which receives my encouragement, of draining methane gas from collieries. It is doing very well in perfecting the safety aspects of the process. This makes it possible to increase considerably the quantity of coal to be produced. In North Staffordshire, for example, five pits have just had their methane drained off and their output has increased by 5,000 tons per week.
In conflict with that, however, the methane so extracted is used by the local gas boards. The Coal Board makes a profit on it, of course, but the demand for the coal is lessened. In the No. 1 area of the West Midlands division, 6 million cu. ft. of pure methane has been drawn off and is feeding 25,000 houses. Not only is this kind of policy reducing the demand for coal, but it is increasing the output when there is no sale for the coal. We must face the fact that if the methane can be drawn off safely, it will adversely affect the demand for coal and jeopardise the future of the industry. This is another reason why I do not think we shall be able to regain much of the market in the gas industry.
With Government encouragement, the Central Electricity Generating Board acted similarly to the Gas Council. Agreement was reached to import a tremendous amount of oil and to convert the power stations, but there is a measure of comradeship and friendship between the electricity industry and the coal industry, far better than that with the Gas Council. Consequently, the electricity industry has listened to our pleas and is gradually converting back, but we shall not regain all we have lost.
The hon. Member for Kidderminster, who posed questions concerning atomic

1609
energy earlier in the debate, is not present.
Mr. Nabarro: I am here.
Mr. Mason: When I speak in the House I always look to the hon. Member's customary place. He would seem to be out of his usual position.
Here again we can charge the Government. Time and time again from this side of the House we have demanded that coal should be granted a recognised place in the economy of this country. We are doing it with atomic energy. We have decreed in the nuclear power programme that the Atomic Energy Authority shall be responsible with the Central Electricity Generating Board for power equivalent to 18 million tons of coal to be produced by 1966, and for power equivalent to 40 million tons of coal to be produced by 1975.
I do not doubt for one moment the prospects of nuclear power for this country and I do not intend to see it slowed down. So far as I am concerned, it will be speeded up. We have one of the finest teams of scientists, technicians and engineers in the Atomic Energy Authority itself, as some of our achievements have already proved. They are not lacking in determination. I will explain why the future of atomic energy is assured. First, we are now experimenting with an advanced gas-cooled reactor, using enriched fuels well in advance of the Calder Hall type of reactor. Secondly, we have started on the Dounreay fast-breeder reactor, which as well as producing will be able to breed its own fuel. Then there is the prospect that in the immediate years ahead there will be an inevitable drop in the price of uranium, and if we can manage to get agreement internationally on the suspension of nuclear tests followed by the stopping of manufacture of nuclear weapons, thousands of tons a year of uranium will be on the market.
Only yesterday, the Atomic Energy Authority in its Report stated that there would be a 30 per cent. drop in the capital costs of building. A combination of any two or three of these factors is sufficient to ensure that there will be cheap atomic power. This is estimated to come by the mid-1970s. If there is a drop in capital costs and uranium prices fall, we can well anticipate that that will be
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easily achieved. I am not worrying unduly about atomic energy being slowed down. I think that it will come along very rapidly indeed, and if these factors operate, as I have suggested, we shall get it quicker and cheaper than we imagine.
In the supply of oil, we are fast becoming a Middle East dependency. What will determine the life of the coal-mining industry is the extent by which we can install coal-burning plant in the industries of the country. One hundred million pounds per year is being spent on the installation of coal-burning plant—primary plant using raw coal, power stations, coke ovens, gas-making plant and industrial steam-raising plant.
Comparisons made are wrongly made between the burning of coal and oil. Every time a person makes a comparison he is talking about the removal of old-fashioned coal-burning equipment and the installation of modern oil-burning equipment. If we compare like with like coal is competitive with oil. There is one lesson that the Tories learned from Suez. They learned the lesson that it took them longer than they thought it would to switch tankers from the Middle East to the Atlantic route and that we needed to have oil reserves in this country.
We are spending £6 million already on installing oil fuel reserves in this country in case anything of that nature happens again. Therefore, they are not worried unduly about our getting oil from the Middle East. This has given the green light to the oil industry. It said, "It is obvious the Government are not going to put any embargo on oil. They are themselves preparing to have an oil reserve." Therefore, the oil industry went ahead and started freezing coal out.
We have to recognise that the grim situation before us arises, first, because there has been a deliberately planned deflationary period during the last two and a half years; secondly, because the Government have created emnity between the chairmen of the boards of the nationalised industries instead of bringing them together and co-ordinating their activities as the Minister of Power has the right to do; and thirdly, because they have encouraged the preference of oil to coal, and the losses that have been suffered will not be fully recovered.

1611
We have now set up rather late the Wilson Committee, two and a half years after the depression started, to try to find out the various uses of coal and particularly of the small coal piling up in the country. Even if the Wilson Committee Report suggests what should be done, it will take many years to get rid of the 40 million tons piling up, 29 million to 30 million tons of which is already undistributed. It will be a tremendous task for it to find uses for 30 million tons of coal, breaking it down into its various derivatives.
Consequently, we have to encourage the use of smokeless fuel. The Coal Board has a part to play in this in advertising and salesmanship. The Government must make sure that distribution is effected and they must carry out the recommendations of the Report that the small companies concerned should come together so that distribution can be more effective and we can have the coal at the right places at the right time. We also have a chance in exports as industrial activity picks up in Europe, because by our natural geographical position we are in closer proximity with the European plants. We can operate smaller ships for the movement of coal from wharf to wharf, and there is less damage to coal in transit than on the Atlantic route.
Quality for quality our coals will compare in price with any on the Continent. I think that we have a chance of picking up a little there. We have more than 40 million tons of coal in stock, 29 million tons of it unsold. We have already lost £15 million on stocking the coal itself. Much of that may never be picked up. In any case, it will deteriorate in value.
I should like to ask this question of the hon. Gentleman who is to wind up the debate for the Government. I understand that the Coal Board has considered offering to industry special terms to take this undistributed coal and stock it during this era of coal stocking. This would help the Coal Board and help private industry, because it would be getting this coal relatively cheaply. I understand that the Government have intervened and stopped the Coal Board from carrying out this plan. I should
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like the hon. Gentleman to give us some information on that when he winds up.
We must recognise that, with these stocks, we have more than £150 million of Board and Government money locked up. In August a new plan is due to come out. We have in mind this interference by the Minister of Power, and the fact that we have 131 mines losing £1 on every ton produced, and a percentage more of marginal mines, some due to close in any case because of natural exhaustion. This is a new factor in the situation, for they are mines with plenty of life in them yet, producing good quality coal but of a type for which there is no market, and so they, too, are in danger of being put on the closure list. With all this in mind, this is a very grim picture indeed.
The noble Lord the Minister of Power, talked in another place about an "anxious" situation. That is most nauseating to Members of Parliament who represent mining constituencies. We recognise what a grim situation it really is. With high coal stocks, continuing losses incurred by the Board, uneconomic pits still working, and a Tory Government still in office, what are the prospects for the future? Irrespective of party we must recognise that there is going to be contraction of the industry with a relative increase in the efficiency of the mines, but playing a much smaller part in our economy.
The question is, how far will it contract? Will it be a sensitively phased contraction or a cruel, callous contraction? I warn the House and every miner in this country that if the Conservatives get back at the next General Election, with their known interference with the Board, their dislike of nationalisation, their wrecking of Coal Board plans, we can visualise that within a very few years there will be a cruel contraction. Indeed, I am certain that the new plan which is coming out next month will reveal—because I see that they are thinking of making it—a cut back in investment and that another batch of pits is due to be closed. There are 814 pits under the Coal Board's wing. Of those, under a future Tory Government, 131 are doomed to close as uneconomic pits.
Mr. Speir: In how many years?
Mr. Mason: They will look round every region and see the marginal pits in unco-operative regions and they will close them. They will look at the pits which are producing good quality coal and with many years of life in them, and because the coal they produce is not required, is not of a type which is required, they will close them as well. It will mean that, within a few years of their return, we shall see the industry whittled down to just over 600 mines and about 500,000 men. There will be a highly profitable core left within the industry.
Once that has been done the stage is set for denationalisation. There is one Minister already in this Government who has said in recent weeks that they will split up the regions and there will be boards of directors, and then we shall have the pre-1939 basis of areas competing against areas. That is the future for the mining industry if this Government are returned.
Instead, this is what we think should be done. First, let the place of the industry be recognised in our economy. Give it a target, as the Government are giving atomic energy——
Mr. Robens: Or agriculture.
Mr. Mason: —a target and a chance to live. Secondly, the Minister of Power should use his responsibilities and powers under the Statute and he should bring the chairmen of the boards together and, if he wishes, he could bring in the oil industry, too—bring them all together round the table to produce a co-ordinated plan. Then there would be planning for the nation's well being, not having the nationalised industries cutting one another's throats, which is the aim the Minister has been engendering in their minds during the past few years.
There is a third suggestion I would make. I should like the Board to send out a directive to every one of the areas, to each area general manager, instructing him to co-operate to the full with every local authority in his district, and to give them foreknowledge five years ahead of every pit in the district, whether it is going to close, if it is uneconomic, whether it is marginal and how many men will be affected.
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We must realise that if a pit is closed 2,000 men become unemployed, and in a small district that can be a catastrophe. If we can have the area general managers working with the local authorities in their districts and giving them knowledge five years ahead of what is to be done, they can prepare sites, and arrange for special facilities for the introduction of other industries, and the Government can grant aid in that respect. We do not want to see any more ghost mining villages reappearing on the scene.
There are the social implications of the closure of pits. Social implications are not high in the Tories' priorities. Their record proves it, particularly in the mining areas. We must remember that thirty-six pits have been doomed this year. They are not all closed yet, and there are still 1500 of those men still seeking jobs——
Mr. Speir: There are 1,300.
Mr. Mason: —because absorption is taking place. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned them today. With a new batch of pits doomed to close the absorption will have taken place and it will be hard to find those men work in mining.
Then there is the loss of the productive skill of those men who have worked in the pits all their lives and have graduated at the coal face, whether colliers, machine operators, skilled drillers—whatever operation they were doing at the coal face, but all skilled work. That skill will be completely lost to the nation because it cannot be transferred anywhere else. In that respect miners are not unique, but, by jove, there are very few of them by comparison. Once they go out of the industry they are relegated to the status of labourers and the skill of those men cannot be used again. Their wages are lost to them, too.
We have in every colliery a percentage of men who return to light work when they have suffered industrial disease or industrial injury. They return by agreement with the union and every pit takes a percentage of those men who have been industrially crippled because of the hazardous nature of their occupation. What is to happen to them? If they do not get jobs in the industry those men are virtually unemployables.

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Another factor is that of the men in their late fifties or early sixties prematurely retired. What chance have they of getting a fresh job? We have 13,000 men in the industry at the moment who are over 65 years of age. They will suffer very quickly indeed.
All these are social implications following pit closures and it is time the Government did something positive about them. First of all, I want them to give consideration to the suggestion I made that every local authority should be conversant through the area general managers with the future of the pits in their districts. Secondly, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to convey our apprehensions to the Minister of Labour and the President of the Board of Trade and to suggest that those two Departments set up an inter-Departmental committee to study the social implications of pit closures so that Ministers themselves can prepare a report and offer advice and, if necessary, financial assistance, to those areas which will be affected.
I think the situation is grim because I am with miners every weekend and I understand their feelings and their apprehensions. The Minister of Power said in another place recently, so typically of Tories who advise from afar, that there is an "anxious" situation. For us who are concerned, it is grim, and we expect this Government, or any other future Government, to do something positive about it.
7.40 p.m.
Mr. R. W. Elliott: I am very pleased to follow the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason), who has made such a very forceful speech of the sort that is always good to listen to. But I cannot agree with a great deal of what he said and I would particularly disagree with his very grim outlook, on the future of the mining industry.
I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman's experience of the mining industry is great and that, as he has told us, every week he talks to miners who are, naturally, worried about the future of the industry, as we on this side of the House are at this time also, concerned. As some of my hon. Friends have already said today, we do not attempt for a moment to avoid the fact that
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there is a severe problem in the coal industry. Nevertheless, it is a problem which is quite new. It can be said that the National Coal Board cannot be fairly criticised for its not having anticipated the size of the present problem. I believe that to be so. By the same token, the Government can also be excused for their grappling only now with a problem which has come quite suddenly. We have moved so quickly in coal, from shortage to sufficiency.
I will attempt to deal in the course of my speech with one or two of the points made by the hon. Member for Barnsley, and I assure him that we on this side of the House, also, are most anxious that there shall not be a sudden, cruel and callous contracting of the industry which will bring those grave social consequences of which the hon. Member spoke. The social consequences of redundancy in the coal industry have been mentioned several times today. I was most interested in the account of what can happen in a pit village, as so ably and colourfully described by the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens). I was particularly interested in that he and I represent constituencies in the same part of the country, and most of my political campaigning in the north-east of England has been in pit villages. I now represent a section of this city to which it is said coal should never be taken, and I fully appreciate the sufficiency of stocks at the moment. I most certainly would not welcome coals coming to Newcastle at this time.
We have had to adapt ourselves in Tyneside generally to the great loss of our coal exporting trade. It may well be, if we look ahead, that nuclear-powered cargo ships may sail in the foreseeable future from the Tyne. I should like to think it possible that these ships may once again carry coal from the Tyne, and I was very pleased when the hon. Member for Barnsley struck a short note of optimism in his speech and suggested that "we had a chance" in exports. I agree with him. The difficulties of recapturing our traditional markets in Western Europe and in Scandinavia should not be underestimated.
At the same time, we should be studying now a buyers' market. If the Board is really studying this consumer demand in Western Europe as well as at home,

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if the immense capital expenditure of the Board during the past few years has been wise, if the proposed sensible concentration on pits, on which money has been spent, and the research on the processing of small coal, are carried on, encouraged and carefully directed, coal may well leave the Tyne again and we may well recapture some of our export markets. I recommend that every effort should be made on the part of the Government and the Board alike to recapture this traditional trade.
The main problem in the industry today seems to be the inert reaction to the competition from oil and from atomic power. The answer cannot lie in a policy of despair. It surely lies in a policy of adaptation. The Report of the Wilson Committee, which has been mentioned several times today, is eagerly awaited on both sides of the House and, I have no doubt, throughout the industry. Any suggestion that our nuclear programme should be delayed is to be deplored. Such a suggestion could only mean a curtailing of our economy as a whole, and I believe sincerely that the mining communities themselves would deplore it.
I believe that there is a national pride in our nuclear programme, a national determination to see it carried out, and a general realisation of the disastrous economic consequences that the loss of our world lead here would mean. In ten years it is estimated that the cost of nuclear power will be level with that of conventional fuels. We must, of course, have co-ordination, but I wholeheartedly support the principle that our indigenous fuels shall be used to the maximum provided that it is not uneconomic to do so.
Two main factors stand out at this time and should be given the fullest consideration by the Government, on the one hand, and the Coal Board, on the other. The Government must encourage industry generally towards greater efficiency, if we are to maintain our markets in the world. Any attempt by this or any future Government to curtail the use of the cheapest and most economic form of power can, and will lead to disaster. The Government must at all times stress the lunacy of resisting the inevitable tide of scientific advance. In this stage of rapid change, the Government
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must firmly establish the most efficient possible machinery to avoid any hardship which would come with redundancy.
Here, we on this side of the House are with the hon. Members opposite. We do not want any hardship or any deserted villages in County Durham or anywhere else. I believe that this can be avoided. This Government have established the machinery to deal with redundancy and I shall support all future measures to strengthen and extend it. The Board must meet competition and adjust itself to the demands of today and tomorrow. According to last year's Economic Survey, domestic consumers in this country used 53 million tons of coal, against the use by power stations of 46 million tons.
Throughout the country there has been a general indication during the past few winters of a shortage of the right sort of fuel for the housewife. Here, within the terms of the Clean Air Act, is a tremendous opportunity for the Coal Board to extend its sales to meet domestic demands for cheaper fuel and healthy air with such products as "Warmglow", "Cleanglow" and "Coalite".
Competition from oil is very strong and, as far as I can see, this competition will grow. I disagree with the hon. Member for Barnsley that we are becoming completely dependent upon the Middle East. In future, there is every possibility of cheap oil from the Argentine and Brazil. I understand that European companies have made attempts to prospect in those areas, but that, for political reasons, they have not been allowed to do it. Whether those countries do it themselves or anyone else does it, there is every possibility in those areas of more oil and cheaper oil. France is rapidly developing her Sahara area, in which we have interests, and this could become an alternative, and possibly cheaper, source of supply than is the Middle East.
Finally, I submit that in attempting to define the future of any fuel industry it is necessary, first, to calculate the reserves at our disposal, secondly, to calculate the weight of competition, and thirdly, to link the two to the possible future scientific advances we shall make The way ahead for coal is not easy, and

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I join wholeheartedly with all those who have spoken today from both sides of the House in hoping that we can cushion the contraction of the industry. We all hope that contraction will be gradual, until we have that hard core which will become an efficient coal industry.
I hope sincerely that the future for coal will be reasonably bright. I believe that it will. I cannot see that we shall serve the industry by spreading gloom unnecessarily. As I see it, provided that the Coal Board, with Government support and encouragement, adapts itself to modern needs, trends and demands, coalfields such as those in Northumberland and Durham can have a reasonable future and a definite place in the economy of our country.
7.52 p.m.
Mr. E. Shinwell: Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the Government benches should not express surprise at our anxiety about the future of the British coal industry. We reflect the opinions and anxieties of the mine workers in the coal fields and, indeed, of many hundreds of thousands of people not directly associated with the coal industry who depend to a considerable extent for their livelihood upon the operations in that industry.
At the same time, I agree with the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, North (Mr. R. W. Elliott). We are not presiding at the impending funeral of the British coal industry. We do not want to create alarm and despondency amongst the miners and their families and in the mining villages and townships. Of course not. Yet at the same time we must recognise the facts, and we cannot be complacent about them. They are too obvious and they contain in themselves a grave situation.
At the beginning of his speech this afternoon the Paymaster-General reminded us that only a few weeks ago we had a debate on this subject and that we are now having another one. Why not? The right hon. Gentleman should not be surprised, should a General Election ensue in the course of the next couple of months, if we return to this subject, not only in the mine fields but throughout the country.
This is not merely a matter for the mine workers; it is equally a matter for
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coal consumers, and it also concerns many engineering and other firms manufacturing mining machinery, belting and a variety of requisites used by the coal industry. We shall have a lot to say, but I hope that what we shall say will be constructive in character. For whatever disagreements may exist, and this debate has disclosed several, we are naturally and inevitably concerned about the future of this great national industry, upon which the livelihood of millions of men, women and children depends.
I apologise for having been absent for some time from the House this afternoon because I had to attend an important committee meeting. I have been interested to note that there has been no criticism of the principle of nationalisation. Do I gather from this that both sides of the House are agreed that nationalisation of the mining industry, being a fait accompli, is not to be disturbed or modified or readjusted, and that the Government intend to support the principle of it if, by any political misadventure, they are returned at the next General Election, and that there is to be no "mucking about" with the nationalisation of the coal industry? They can depend upon it that if any trick of that kind were played, there would be serious industrial trouble in the country. Not that I have any right to speak for the National Union of Mineworkers, but I imagine that they would dislike any attempt on the part of the Government to make the situation worse than it is
I said a moment ago that we ought not to create alarm and despondency. Indeed, if one examines the statements, publications and speeches made by the National Coal Board to the National Union of Mineworkers, and made available to the country, apparently the Board does not exaggerate the gravity of the situation, and I support that view. I need not apologise to the House for speaking on this subject for I advocated nationalisation of the mines over forty years ago and I had the responsibility of assisting in the administration of the industry thirty years ago. Also, as hon. Members know, I was honoured by the then Prime Minister with the task of piloting the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill and the Electricity Bill through the House.

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I do not pretend to know as much about the mining industry as some of the experts on both sides of the House, but I understand its mechanics and its commercial ramifications, past, present and possibly future. In particular, I understand the social implications, to which we must attach importance. They cannot be ignored. I will tell the House why I say that.
When, on the opposite side of the House, I was piloting the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill through Parliament, I ventured to make the statement that nationalisation as a principle had to be adopted not only in the interests of the whole community but also for the purpose of improving the social conditions of the mineworkers. Unless it had had that second objective, it would not in my view have been worth while. I believe that to a large extent it has succeeded. The miners' conditions are vastly improved. There are, of course, conditions here and there which are not regarded as completely satisfactory, but in wages, hours of labour, holidays with pay, welfare arrangements and the like there has been a remarkable improvement.
As I say, that was one of the purposes of nationalisation. We are proud of it, and I do not see why anybody on the Government benches should object to it. If, indeed, the purpose of the Government is, as has been said, to double the standard of living in twenty-five years, we had better make a start, for now is the time.
It is a melancholy reflection after all the labours for which we were responsible in connection with nationalisation and all the criticism that was levelled against me, in my judgment very unworthy criticism—but hon. Members would expect me to say that—that we should have all this difficulty now. I am not blaming the National Coal Board. I judge that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite do not blame it. It has been faced with the gravest difficulties from the very start, from the days when Lord Hindley was the chairman, through the days of Hubert Houldsworth who succeeded him, and their successors down to the present chairman, Sir James Bowman. Under each of those chairmen the Board has faced considerable difficulties.
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First of all, there was the reorganisation of the mining industry. When I heard the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George), who is a mining engineer, speaking as he did, it reminded me of the gross neglect and terrible waste in the mining industry before the war, which could not be rapaired during the war for obvious reasons. The Board has had to tackle reorganisation. That is a very costly business, and it has meant the expenditure of hundreds of millions of £s. It has also retarded production, naturally, because during reorganisation one cannot produce to the same extent. Then there was the shortage of coal. Who was to blame? It may have been the Ministry of Fuel and Power. It may have been the Minister at that time.
Mr. Nabarro: Hear, hear.
Mr. Shinwell: One would expect that kind of response from the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). He does not really mean it. In private he is a most amiable person, but he has to do that sort of thing in order to keep his courage up. It is a kind of Dutch courage that helps him. Whatever you do, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, do not take him too seriously.
It does not matter who is to blame. The fact of the matter is that difficulties were encountered all along the line. I was just about to mention the difficulty that because of the shortage of coal we had to import coal from abroad, and the difficulties consequent upon that.
There has been a great deal of talk about the switch-over to oil. I should like to tell the House how it began. It began because we had not enough coal.
Mr. Nabarro: That is just what I said.
Mr. Shinwell: The hon. Member probably said it because he had heard me say it previously. This plagiarism is abominable.
When we were faced with a shortage of coal, naturally we had to propose a switch-over to oil, and my successors intensified it. I was then no longer responsible. It has continued. There were many other difficulties facing the Board.
When we talk about the condition of the British coal industry under nationalisation one might suppose that there is

1623
no trouble in any other coal-producing country. But we have only to examine the reports to see that that is not so. There is not a coal producing country in the world which is not facing considerable difficulty in connection with production and, in particular, distribution. Even the United States has had to reduce production of coal which is easily got, for the most part from drift mines and on the surface, and many men have had to be dismissed. It is the same in Germany and every other Continental coal-producing country. It is a world problem.
It is a world problem because every coal-producing country is faced with two factors—the recession which began two or three years ago and the competition from oil. It is as simple as that. It is a very grave matter, but it is one which can be easily understood. What are we to do about it?
I have been reading the Board's Reports, and I want now to address myself for a few minutes to what I regard as the constructive side.
Dr. Reginald Bennett: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that what he has just said is an extraordinarily sound appraisal of the situation and that, therefore, not very much blame can be attached to Her Majesty's Government for the present situation?
Mr. Shinwell: I will deal with that. I had not intended to touch upon it but was about to say, "What is the use of attacking the Government?" They are so thick-skinned that it does not matter. With them it is like water running off a duck's back. They are impervious to criticism. We ask questions daily, and look at the silly answers that we get!
Mr. Nabarro: If you ask a silly question, you will get a silly answer.
Mr. Shinwell: The trouble is that we get from the hon. Member both silly questions and silly answers.
There is not much point in attacking the Government even if there seems to be justification for doing so. They have been attacked about inflation, the recession and so on. What troubles me more than anything else is their complacency.
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The Paymaster-General dealt in his speech with almost every aspect of the problem, but he did not indicate—perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will deal with the matter—whether in the next two years the Government, on the assumption that a Tory Government are returned at the General Election, intend to support the Board in whatever plan is produced. This is a very important matter. The Board will produce a plan. We have not seen the plan, but we have some idea of the shape of things to come. We can imagine what the pattern will be.
Suppose the Board says, "By 1965 we do not expect to be called upon to produce more than 200 million tons of coal a year. We expect the electricity stations to take about 80 million tons of that coal, whereas last year they took only 55 million tons." Suppose it says, "The gas industry will be a real problem because it estimated that this year it would take 27 million tons, last year it took only 25 million tons, and we now understand that it is to take only 22½ million tons".
Something must be done about it. That is 200 million tons, probably with another 100, or perhaps more, pits closed down. There may be more efficient production of coal and a possibility of selling more, but there will still be financial difficulties. What are the Government going to do? In other words, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) rightly asked, will the Government underwrite the activities and operations of the Board in future as long as it is necessary to do so, or are they going to leave the Board in the lurch? Unless we can have an assurance on this point, the anxieties of the mine workers will increase, and we cannot ignore them. The mine workers are afraid, which is understandable, and therefore we ought to have an answer to that question.
Turning to what I consider to be the constructive aspects, there is much to be said for the Government adjusting their policy about the provision of oil for electricity generation. After all is said and done, we can never tell what will happen about the amount of oil that may be required in this country. The United States has been in difficulties about the oil in that country. Indeed, that is why

1625
the United States Government intervened in the Middle East—intervened far too much, in my view.
It may well be that difficulties will occur in the Middle East at some time, not necessarily military or political difficulties, although these may occur, but technical difficulties, geological difficulties and physical difficulties, and we may be short of oil, or at any rate unable to secure all the oil we require. We shall then have to rely on coal and to readjust the situation. That is not planning or looking ahead. It therefore seems to me that the Government, in conjunction with the Coal Board, must apply themselves to some kind of adjustment in relation to the provision of oil or coal for the electricity stations.
I should like to direct attention to a question asked by the Minister of Power in another place. We cannot quote what he said, but I will mention a question which he asked. For example, he put this question to the Labour Opposition in another place: "Would you restrict the consumer's choice of fuel? Would you say that he must use coal instead of oil?" My answer is very clear and simple: "Yes, if the national interest requires it". That is fair enough.
Do not let us forget that the Government have themselves already responded to that principle. They have promised that instead of proceeding with all the schemes for converting electricity generating stations from coal to oil, they will suspend the conversion operations in a few of them. That is restricting consumer choice. If the Government believed in the principle of competition and of no restriction on the consumer's choice, they would never have agreed to that proposition. They would never have agreed that the time had arrived to say to the electricity authorities, "You cannot continue with oil generation. You must use coal."
There is a restriction on the consumer's choice, and the restriction applies not only to coal or oil or gas or any other fuel; it applies to food and clothing and a variety of other things, because of the creation of monopolies in this country. We do not always buy what we want to buy. Sometimes we buy what we are compelled to buy, because there is no choice. The Minister of Power, therefore, had no right to ask
1626
that question or to imagine that there was no answer to it.
Is there any reason why we should not encourage consumers to use more coal, but in another form than its raw state? Could they not be encouraged to use it as smokeless fuel? It is not merely a question of a restriction on the consumer's choice, but a question of encouragement to use the right fuel, which in this case is coal. I believe that in the case of electricity the Coal Board will find itself in a more advantageous position in the course of the next few years. I take a very optimistic view about that.
What of the possibilities of industrial expansion? If I am to believe what the Coal Board says—and the statements by members of the Board have not been challenged—the Board expects an increased rate of industrial expansion in the course of the next few years. I hope that that is right, and if it is right more coal will be used. It is possible that more household coal will be used, but in a different form, as a result of the production of derivatives. The only gloomy aspect of the Coal Board's Report applies to gas. The Board is very worried about the position there, and I want to turn to it for a moment.
Without any hesitation, I would restrict the use of gas, first of all because it does not use coal to the extent that it should and secondly because in many respects it is wasteful. Whether gas is produced from oil or from coal, great quantities of gas are produced which are of no use at all. Is it possible, as a result of research and experiment, to produce smokeless fuel with less gas? I believe that it will be possible by experiments—I understand that there is research on the subject—to produce a smokeless fuel out of coal without any gas at all, or, at any rate, to reject some of the volatile matter so that the smokeless fuel can be burned more easily in the open grate. That, I think, would be of great advantage.
In any event, I believe that both for illumination and for space heating to a large extent it is far better to use electricity than gas. I do not want to pursue the matter because it may be that I am technically wrong, but I understand that that is the position.

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I end on this note. I beg of all concerned—my colleagues, with great respect to them, hon. Members opposite, the mineworkers and their friends—not to be too pessimistic about the future of the coal industry. We ought to encourage the coal industry to prosper. That ought to be our main concern. One makes appeals, but often no notice is taken of them. However, I plead very sincerely that we should try to escape from the political prejudices about nationalisation. Let us regard it as a fait accompli. Let us make the best of it, encourage it, nourish it and cherish it. Let us back the Coal Board, criticising it where necessary, for there is nothing wrong with that. By all means criticise the Board. Let us, nevertheless, accept nationalisation as an accomplished fact and let us build it up.
It is for the Government to help financially. There is nothing wrong with that. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth has pointed out it was the Baldwin Government who provided subventions for the private owners of the coal industry. Moreover, it has also been done for agriculture. If it is necessary to provide the finance, let it be done, and let us give the Coal Board, the mine workers of this country and this great indigenous industry the opportunity to proceed with their activities. Let us encourage them in every possible way so that one day, perhaps, in the course of the next few years we may have a debate in the House during which we can say that, as a result of our united efforts, of our co-operation and perhaps of co-ordination of the three fuel and power industries, the National Coal Board has achieved a great success.
8.18 p.m.
Dr. Reginald Bennett: The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), in his entertaining and erudite speech, spoke of large quantities of useless gas being produced. He said that there was too much of it about. I assure him that I do not think that his speech amounted to that, and I trust that mine will not amount to it, either.
The right hon. Gentleman was good enough to explain to the House that the difficulties of the coal industry were paralleled in every country of the West, which rather kicked the bottom out of his
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colleague's contention that it is the Government's fault that we are in what they described as the present mess. The right hon. Gentleman made a plea about nationalisation. He asked us to accept the nationalisation of the coal industry as a fait accompli and to leave it alone. Is he prepared, and are his hon. Friends prepared, equally to accept the non-nationalisation of other industries and to leave them alone? It may be possible for a deal to be done on these lines.
The right hon. Gentleman asked whether we want to denationalise coal. Speaking for myself, and as one who is unable to bind anybody, except possibly by boring him, I would say that it is unlikely that we should ever wish to denationalise the mineral rights, but I see no earthly reason why the operation of coal mining should not be denationalised sooner or later. It might add extra stimulus to the industry and allow it to be more efficient and to provide better rather than worse standards of living in the future.
The social benefits which have accrued to people in the coal industry since nationalisation are very substantial, all will agree, but can we say with our hands on our hearts that that is essentially due to nationalisation and in no way due to the fact that there has been the biggest ever sellers' market for coal since the war? The right hon. Gentleman himself said that he introduced oil burning because there was a shortage of coal. Surely that made it automatic that the coal industry, in whose-ever hands it was, could sell everything that it produced.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington expressed misgivings about the supply of oil. Surely it is true that there is now a wider variety of suppliers of oil in different parts of the world than there was a few years ago during the Suez crisis. I cannot help thinking that there is a wider choice of source from which to get our oil and that we might, therefore, feel a little less committed to the Middle East which, I agree would be an unfortunate thing today.
The right hon. Gentleman said that he would restrict the consumer's choice. I am sorry to have to tell him, but his right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said that it was not his policy to dictate to users which fuel they should use.
Mr. Shinwell: The hon. Gentleman should note that I said "if the national interest required it."
Dr. Bennett: That is a substantial qualification, but, at the same time, the right hon. Gentleman believes in a kind of interference. His right hon. Friend was at some pains to point out, though, also, with a qualification, that his colleagues would not attempt to interfere with the user's choice of fuel.
I was entirely in agreement with the right hon. Gentleman on his one great point of constructive value. He said that there must be an improvement in the future market for coal by the conversion of coal into some form of smokeless fuel. I agree, if for no other reason than that the burning of coal is almost criminal waste. The higher chemicals contained in coal are of the utmost value to the chemical industry. To burn coal in a grate seems a terrible thing to do when it could be converted to smokeless fuel and benefit obtained from the chemicals that come out of it.
I realise, as often happens in this House, that I am speaking in the presence of a small group of highly qualified experts, almost all of whom have an interest in the subject under discussion. I have no interest to declare and I am not an expert. Most of the speeches so far have dealt with the coal mining industry, coalfields, and the people who work in them, and I would be the last to disregard their interests. It would be foolish to do so. There is, however, a point of view which needs expressing but has not been expressed. Large tracts of this country are outside and remote from the areas of coalfields. I should like to consider those areas, although the opinions held by people in those areas may pull other ways from those of almost every previous speaker.
Without doubt the price of coal is producing this setback in the industry. Nobody has disagreed with that. My right hon. Friend started by saying, and I think everybody else has agreed, that price is the thing under which more distant areas of the country groan. In my constituency there is a parallel which I have heard many times and which the House may appreciate as illustrating why this malaise exists in the industry.
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Flour is imported into Southampton. The price paid for flour is the same all over the country, being controlled by a system of price maintenance. Needless to say, the people who live near the point at which flour enters the country have to pay the same price as is paid in John o'Groats or Penzance. They think it is unfair that they should have to pay nearly twice as much for coal as people in the coalfields. This may seem illogical, or irrational, but it is an argument that is widely heard.
No doubt the high cost of coal is attributed to the colossally long and heavy haulage involved. Surely it is rather absurd that in hauling coal to the south and west of the country large quantities of other coal have to be burnt to do so and that there is a colossal tying up of the railway system in trucking this stuff about.
With that in view I should like to make a reference or two to the other industries. I concur with everybody who has said that there is a setback in the coal industry. There is undoubtedly a drop in the demand for coal. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington agreed with my right hon. Friend that this was a passing phase, and that the longer term prospects were of a substantial increase because the demand by the main consumers would be maintained. My right hon. Friend said that by 1965 9 to 10 million tons more coal would be needed for electricity. That is very encouraging. If the total demand is 300 million tons equivalent per annum by the mid-1960s, of which the coal industry will get the lion's share, I feel that the despondency which has been expressed, sometimes violently, this afternoon has been exaggerated. Having said that, I shall have to look at events later to see whether I have misjudged the situation or have judged it aright.
If the demand for certain kinds of coal diminishes, it cannot be denied that the Government will have the responsibility of treating this problem with the closest care. The problem of the closure of pits is not so devastatingly alarming. Although 200 pits have been closed since the war, with proper care and consultation among the interested parties there has been no substantial drop in the redeployment of the men who worked in

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those pits. I gather that the present programme is to close about 130 more pits during the next five years. That does not make a rate of closure of any different order; it may mean that a greater effort will have to be made, but not an effort out of proportion to what has gone before. I do not therefore think that there is cause for despondency, even if the figures that I have heard quoted are right.
I agree with the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) that it should be the duty of the Coal Board to notify local authorities and other interested parties as far as in advance as possible where there is a prospect of a pit which is uneconomic being closed. As far as I can make out, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth was criticising the Government for streamlining the coal industry too fast; in other words, not for failing to plan a place for the coal industry—which the Motion says the Government are doing—but for planning too small a place.
The right hon. Member for Blyth demanded time to allow for the proper contraction of the industry, and I am sure that nobody would differ from him about that. There must at least be time for redeployment and resettlement, although there must not be a refusal to permit the contraction of the industry, because anybody who tried to stand in the way of that contraction would be a sort of subterranean King Canute, as far as I can make out.
Mr. Chambers, the future chairman of I.C.I.—as quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro)—talked about the insanity of establishing an oil-fired power station in the middle of a coalfield, but it would be just as insane to establish a coal-fired station so remote from the coalfields as are some parts of southern and western England. In future, the south and west of England must rely on oil and nuclear power. Oil is imported into the country in and around the south and west, and refineries are scattered around the area, and it is, therefore, obvious that oil should be used. Equally, I am sure that nuclear power must be used. I was interested when the hon. Member for Rhondda, West (Mr. Iorwerth Thomas) referred to
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the fact that in neither opening speech was any reference made to nuclear power, until he intervened quite late in the second of those speeches.
A great deal of difficulty is being encountered—and I have met it sharply myself—because when a nuclear or other power station is being projected a fairly detailed plan is the first thing released to the public. That seems invariably to arouse the strongest local opposition, because nuclear power stations must be situated in rather remote places which are generally considered to be places with attractive scenery. I hope that my noble Friend will try to secure that more long-term and general hand-outs are issued about the siting of future power stations.
A preliminary announcement should be made that a power station will be required within a certain part of a certain county. If that is said it will be up to the local people—who would be fools to oppose erection of such a station—to decide which part of the area in question would give least offence locally, so that instead of running into this almost invariable opposition my noble Friend would be able to enlist local opinion on his side. That would improve the prospects of getting the stations that we all want to see erected, because those in the South are starved of power unless we pay a high price to have it made.
In short, I would not on any account have any interference with the use of oil in southern and western areas, and I would not agree for a moment to any diminution of effort in the nuclear power industry. That is just as much an industry of this country as is the coal industry. Instead, I would have that industry expanded, because I am sure that, with the better prospects of reducing prices, in the long run that industry will give us ever-cheaper power and will be a most valuable asset. I am being quite consistent in saying this. I have pressed throughout for the greatest possible expansion of the nuclear power industry.
I do not believe that the coal industry is in anything like the doldrums that some people have suggested. There is little justification for some of the observations which have been made. I believe that the industry has a great

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future. If coal is used more slowly nowadays it will last longer and the industry will have a longer future. There is no ground for this depression. I believe that the Government are conducting a genuinely realistic policy for coal.
8.33 p.m.
Miss Jennie Lee: I appreciate the candour of the opening remarks of the hon. Member for Gosport and Fareham (Dr. Bennett). Several appeals have been made by my hon. Friends for those on the Government benches to accept nationalisation of the coal mines as permanent, and something that will govern whatever may happen in the future. The hon. Member for Gosport and Fareham made his position very plain. In effect, he said, "I am a Tory. I do not believe in nationalisation. Why should I say that, no matter what future circumstances may be, I will be committed to supporting nationalisation?"
My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) was right when, in his very able speech, he said that we get a clarity of thought and help the country to understand not merely the problems of the coal fields but the wider social problems of this country if Tories talk according to their philosophy and Socialists talk according to theirs. The trouble arises when people try to blur the issue; the result is neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley said that once the coal industry reaches the point where the weaker pits are eliminated, where vast capital development has taken place, and where we have a core of efficient coal mines, there is no reason to assume that a future Tory Government might not say, "Why should not we take the matter further and give the industry back into private hands?" The hon. Member for Gosport and Fareham said we had to consider the fact that had the coal pits not been nationalised, because of the sellers' market there would have been an increase in the standard of living of the men in the industry. What he did not say was that the modernisation of the obsolete coal pits would have been carried out by private capital. In other words, as a Tory—I do not disagree with him stating his point of view; in fact I was pleased to hear it—he has no objection at all to public money being used to subsidise private industry.
Dr. Bennett: I think that is rather far from the premise. That conclusion escapes me in logic.
Miss Lee: I assumed that the hon. Member was a loyal member of his party. Perhaps I have done him less than credit by that assumption; it may be that he has little "flutters" of his own. The official policy of the Conservative Party is fully in favour of subsidising private industry with public money.
Dr. Bennett: I should be grateful if the hon. Lady would give me a reference in any document.
Miss Lee: One has only to look at the cotton industry and what is being done in sections of the steel industry. One need only contemplate the money being spent on Colvilles and other sections of the steel industry. But if one wishes to see this in its neatest, plainest and most opulent form, one has only to look at the £250 million a year which is put into the agricultural industry, public money subsidising private industry.
Dr. Bennett: Does the hon. Lady wish to nationalise the agricultural industry?
Miss Lee: I will explain what I wish to do if the hon. Member will permit me.
I have made my point. The party to which the hon. Member belongs has not the slightest objection to public money being used to subsidise private industry. Therefore, I can quite understand that if hon. Members opposite could have had public money to subsidise the old coal owners and to modernise the machinery in the pits, they would have ruthlessly set aside all the weakest pits, although it would have created pockets of unemployment. That would have been the kind of post-war Britain which a Conservative Government would have tried to give us.
Dr. Bennett: The hon. Lady will forgive me if I am not with her all the way.
Miss Lee: I should not only be surprised, but shocked, if the hon. Member had been.
Let us be clear about the real argument. In this kind of debate a fascinating schizophrenia is apparent in nearly every speech. Sometimes it is fascinating,

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sometimes it is irritating. There are occasions when we talk as though we were a Council of State, as though we could deal with the problems of the coal industry in isolation; as though the only argument between us was the best manner in which either to guess or assess ways to produce coal and the potential markets for it.
The Paymaster-General said to hon. Members on this side of the House that, so far as he understood the situation, the only difference between us was that though we all tried to make estimates, when those estimates were proved inaccurate, he, as a hard-headed Tory, tried to adjust the industry to the changing market situation whereas we on these benches, as idealists, tried to go ahead as if no change had taken place. The right hon. Gentleman is not now present in the Chamber, but I think that that is a fair summary of his closing remarks.
We all know that often the Paymaster-General talks with his tongue in his cheek. He knows as well as I know, and most hon. Members know, that that is not what the argument is about at all. It is utter nonsense, economically, financially and socially, to try to discuss the problems of the coal industry as though the industry were an isolated unit My right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said that we on this side of the House were not Luddites, that we had not the slightest desire to keep open obsolete and unprofitable pits for an indefinite period. That is true. We are all eager to make suggestions about what should be done.
If one visits a typical mining village one finds that the young men do not want to work in the pits. They prefer to work as engineers or for one of the subsidiary industries. But we are all profoundly concerned about maintaining the fabric of the mining community. We are concerned about the men who have their roots—their homes, their schools, their churches and their clubs—in the mining villages. For those men it is a great tragedy to be uprooted. We know that we can cut down in manpower and make temporary openings, provided that the whole process is phased, but the terrifying people are those who now constitute Her Majesty's Government.
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It is shocking, in the world in which we are now living and when hardly a single major country with which we have to compete denies the need for a planned economy, that Government supporters are still playing off coal against gas, electricity, nuclear power, oil and all the rest of it. They ask us silly questions, such as whether we are in favour of restricting or taxing oil imports, and whether we want to reduce the consumer's choice. We want a contemporary plan for the industry that will go even beyond the fuel industries to those who use fuel, and it would include transport, shipping and the major framework of a modern industrial society.
I am not afraid about the technical expertness of the men who are in charge of the mining industry. We have fine technicians in the mining areas. I often see the young fellows who are going into the pits. If there is any scholarly inclination in them it is encouraged and not discouraged. We can take it for granted that we have the men, and that others are coming on, to give us a superb mining industry. They will do the production side extremely well, but not the marketing side. The Government do that. Those men do not decide where our exports are to go. Quality and price are big factors, but the policy of the Government determines our relations with other countries and how far we are making the right kind of trading agreements which will settle how far we have export markets for our coal.
I am frightened at the philosophy of Government supporters. I know they thought that it was perfectly all right to hive off the most profitable sections of the steel industry and felt the same way about the transport industry, without any shame. They have no shame at all in taking over a business like S. and G. Brown's, a skilled industry, built up over the years. How can they support an industry in which there can be no take-over bids, no gambling on the Stock Exchange and no capital gains? In their philosophy, a man who is producing, whether coal or potatoes, is looked at grudgingly if his wage packet goes up beyond £10 or £12 per week. It is abnormal, and he is on the frontiers of being a spiv or a profiteer.
This dichotomy, this schizophrenia, makes the same people think that it is perfectly proper that a small minority in

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our community, who often are producing nothing at all—no coal, housing or education—that is social and useful, can be worth £1,000 on one day, and the next day can be worth £10,000 or £100,000, or even £1 million. We have been having a vivid education from the Press recently on the fortunes that can be taken over.
This problem of what is going to happen to the mining villages is intimately interlocked with what is going to happen to the whole economy of Great Britain. Whether we are dealing with the cotton industry which is private enough but is worrying us all, whether we are dealing with agriculture which can survive only so long as it is subsidised to the extent that I have already indicated, I can see no future for this country unless we form a modern plan and stop this nonsense of pretending that there is something wrong with a subsidy if it is for a nationalised industry, but that it is all right if it is for a private industry. It is the private industries which are getting a subsidy, and the nationalised industries are not getting any subsidy.
There are two elements to be considered. First, we have the long-term problem of what is to happen to our mining villages. I have no answer to that. I know only the beginning of the answer. We have got to get rid of hon. Members opposite, because they do not understand. They belong to the Stone Age. They have not caught up with coal, let alone nuclear energy. Their philosophy is the philosophy of each man for himself and the devil take the hindmost. That may be all right inside large sectors of industry, but it will not do for Great Britain.
I wonder how hon. Members opposite would have felt during the war if they had been told that the Navy, the Army and the Air Force were going out on their own. One Service had to step back in order that another could step forward according to the overriding defence needs of the country. What applied during the war in terms of defence applies now in terms of our industrial development. We have got to have plans. We have got to decide how far we are going to use coal, gas and electricity, but it is absolute nonsense to talk as if those industries were in competition with each other.
The short-term aspect of this debate was ably stated by my right hon. Friend
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the Member for Blyth. We are deeply worried about the short-term aspect, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) will come back to this point when he winds up. His head and heart are in it We have seen too much of our mining villages being destroyed not to be deeply concerned. There is still a lot of happiness because there is a lot of love and kindness in our mining villages. I go every weekend to some of these villages and I attend galas and similar events where I see the generosity of our lads when they have a penny in their pockets. They want to look after the old people and spread prosperity. They want to be one family. There is not a great deal of snobbery in the mining villages. We are born and bred with a deep sense of family.
But I remember what happened when there was unemployment in our villages before the war. A place like Oxford, for instance, was developed and, in my opinion, was largely spoiled by the Morris works. It gathered from Scotland, from the Clydeside and from the mining areas the pick of the miners and the skilled engineers. They were given wages a little higher than the current rate. They were engaged on the "hire and fire" principle because the management were not going to have any trade unions interfering. But it was the community which had to supply the schools, homes, hospitals and the social furniture. No one uproots even a flower in his garden before making proper preparations to transplant it somewhere else. Yet family after family was uprooted and taken to places where its transplantation was not even financially in the national interest, quite apart from anything else.
I am not suggesting that everybody must stay at home. The young have a sense of adventure and they may well want change. The possibilities for change must be there. But it will be financially disastrous and socially barbarous, against everything in which we on these benches believe, if we do not see to it that we phase the future of our mining industry in such a way that, when an old pit dies, there will be young industries growing up around it in order that we may keep the community life of our land which is so precious.
8.50 p.m.
Mr. Rupert Speir: Because of the time, I must restrict my remarks, and I propose, therefore, only to emphasise one particular aspect of this grave problem. In doing so, I do not think that I shall irritate the hon. Lady the Member for Cannock (Miss Lee); indeed, I believe that I shall have her with me in what I say. I wish to emphasise the social factors in the grave difficulties which face the coal industry.
In this connection, I was encouraged by a remark which my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General made in his opening speech, but I do not believe that we can possibly pay too much attention to what I call the human and social approach to these matters. As the hon. Lady said, the coal industry and the mining communities have served us in Britain well for many generations. Britain owes a great deal to the miners and their families. Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that we owe them a debt which can never be repaid.
To put it mildly, the mining communities have very grave difficulties ahead of them. In these circumstances, Britain must at least seek to lessen the blow. We accept it that many pits must be closed. Many miners, particularly the older ones, will become redundant. But, for heaven's sake, let us not envisage even the possibility of large pools of unemployment, with villages as black spots of depression in the mining areas. That will happen unless the Government take prompt action. A little foresight and imagination now can make all the difference to the future outcome.
In the post-war years, and now, we in Britain have been spending £300 million or £400 million on creating new towns. The hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), whom I see in his place, knows all about that. He knows my views on that subject. I believe that that money, or some of it, at any rate, should have been spent on developing our old towns and, particularly, the mining villages of Britain. In Parliament this week we have also been urged to increase the millions which we are at present spending on underdeveloped territories overseas. I say let us now spend a few million pounds on developing our own mining areas.
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Something should be done about this—especially in County Durham. Unless alternative industry is taken to the mining areas, they are bound to be faced with exceedingly hard times, whatever anyone says. Villages will decay. Families will be broken up. There will be widespread unemployment. The Government must take legislative action, and they ought to take it in the very near future.
A very serious problem faces the mining communities of Britain, particularly those in Northumberland, Durham and South Wales. Existing legislation seems to be totally inadequate to deal with it. Recently, I have been in correspondence with the Board of Trade about the situation in my constituency of Hexham, where two mines in the Prudhoe area are to be closed in the very near future. At least 800 miners will become redundant there. That is a very large percentage of the working population in that little corner of southwest Northumberland.
I have asked the Board of Trade what it can do under the Distribution of Industry Acts to encourage alternative industry to be set up in advance of the closure of these pits. I am sorry to say that the replies I have had from the Board of Trade have been little less than ludicrous. On 19th June, the Parliamentary Secretary wrote to me saying:
"Thank you for letter of 9th June about employment prospects in the Prudhoe Urban District. … Under the terms of the Distribution of Industry (Industrial Finance) Act, 1958, however, the Board of Trade are precluded from taking into account threatened, as distinct from actual, unemployment.
I wrote again asking whether there were other Acts under which the Government could take action. The reply which I received, dated 17th July, reads:
"I will, of course, see that a close watch is kept on the position. I am afraid that there are no other Acts which could be used to assist industry setting up now in Prudhoe."
If that is the position, I say that the Government must review the situation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] They should consider taking additional legislative action to strengthen the Distribution of Industry Acts.
We must look ahead. We must have a little foresight and a little imagination in dealing with this very human problem. I accept the fact that the mining industry is on the way out. It will not disappear

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suddenly, but the writing is on the wall. If we take steps now to deal with the situation, we can certainly minimise the blow. I think that we are entitled to ask the Government for more consideration of this very serious problem. I urge the Government to look at this social aspect urgently and sympathetically.
8.57 p.m.
Mr. James Griffiths: I would say, right away, how very much we all appreciated, and were moved by, the speech of the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir). I want to applaud the appeal which he made and to return to the major theme of his speech if I have time.
In the long, tumultuous and often tragic history of the coal mining industry—my industry—there have been many periods when it has had to make adjustments to changing situations. Most of the troubles that have occurred in the industry—it has had more than its share—have been due to the fact that, when it has had to face tremendous changes and adjustments of all kinds, wrong policies and wrong methods have been used, and no attempt has been made to try to meet them in a planned and orderly way.
I want to reinforce the plea made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), in his very able and vigorous speech in opening the debate. I do not want to be pessimistic, or too optimistic, but to be realistic. I realise that the coal mining industry is facing a tremendous problem of readjustment to changed conditions—immediate and long-term conditions, but the Government, this House and the nation owes it as a duty, not charity, to the industry to enable it to plan its way through this transition. My right hon. Friend's major theme was that the industry should be given time to contract. We say, "Provide it with a cushion. Give it a Plimsoll line so that it can go through this period in a phased, orderly way with the minimum industrial and social dislocation."
I want to say why I believe that Her Majesty's present Government, and, indeed, all future Governments, have a plain duty to help the industry in every way possible. In 1946 we nationalised the coal mining industry. I have always said that
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my only regret when the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill was before us was that we could not insert a Clause making the Bill retrospective to 1919. How much trouble we could have saved. When we nationalised the mining industry, however, and we set up the National Coal Board, we gave it an immense task. The Coal Board inherited an industry which had been broken by twenty-five years of depression, poverty, strife and bitterness. It was a tremendous task to reconstruct the industry physically and technically and a still more immense task to rehabilitate it spiritually. All of us who come from the mining industry and the mining areas know how true that was.
It would have been for the good of the industry and of all the men in it if, when that tremendous task was undertaken, the Board could have done it without being compelled by successive Governments and by the nation to face the immense task of seeking to meet, for the first time in my lifetime, the demands of an economy working at full pressure in peace time. We had never had that before except during war. The result was that in its first ten years the Coal Board, having inherited that broken industry, was confronted with a tremendous demand from the Government of which I was priviledged to be a member, and from the Government of which right hon. and hon. Members opposite now are members, to get more coal, and to get it quickly, anyhow and anywhere, because unless we could get it we could not sustain the economy of the nation and maintain full employment.
During its first ten years, the Coal Board was confronted with an increased home demand rising to 30 million tons fairly evenly over the ten years. In one year—1948—there was an increased home consumption of 8 million tons. The industry was confronted with that task of getting the coal and of getting it anyhow. The way in which we compelled the mining industry to meet the national needs of those days is part of the handicap it now faces in the present situation.
I speak as a miner. One of the consequences of that tremendous demand for quick increased output was that the Coal Board had to mechanise the industry at a feverish pace. I think that it was the hon. and gallant Member for South Fylde (Colonel Lancaster) who

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once said—and I shared his view—that in some ways mechanisation had proceeded at too feverish a pace.
One of the consequences of that demand for more coal and the consequent intensified mechanisation is that the mining industry now produces the coal in different proportions. Increased mechanisation at this pace means less large coal and more small coal and more dirt. So urgent was the demand for coal that we told the Board to get it quickly and to get it anyhow.
Looking back, it can be seen that one of the problems caused by the urgent demand was that the Board was not able to get a balanced investment programme to meet the changes in production and the consequences of those changes. For example, there should have been a balance between the mechanising of production, with its increased output of small coal and dirt, and the provision of preparation and cleaning plants, but that could not be done. Even now, only 67 per cent. of the production is treated in that way. The fact that we face this situation is because all Governments have told the Board to get the coal and to get it anyhow.
I want to say a word about the miners. If any body of workers in this country is entitled to a five-day week, it is the miners. Indeed, it was, in my view, a very fine day for the miners when, in discussing their charter, the Coal Board accepted a five-day week. They kept it up at the request of the Government of which I was then a member and at the request of right hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Government went to the miners and told them, "So desperately urgent is the need for coal that we want you to work a six day week, although your agreement provides for a five-day week."
As one who has had some experience of these matters—and other hon. Members have had longer experience than I have—let me say that this change in methods of production meant an enormous change in the old traditional customary wages structure of the industry. I want to pay my tribute, not only to the Coal Board, but to the National Union of Mineworkers. The country owes a deep debt of gratitude to the statesmanship shown by the leaders of the union
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in facing up to all the consequences of this tremendous technical change.
When I contemplate the problems that arose in the coal mining industry over the wages structure, I believe that its adaption to new methods, with as little friction as has taken place in the mining industry, is a great tribute to the statesmanship of those concerned. I should like to pay tribute to Ernest Jones, shortly to retire, and to Arthur Horner and the rest of my old colleagues. They served this industry and the nation, well, and we ought to be grateful to them. That was the call we made upon the industry.
I come to another matter. There was a desperate shortage of coal. For the first time for more than half a century the coal mining industry found itself in the position in which its product was in urgent demand, and the demand exceeded the supply. Never in my lifetime had the industry been in that position. The boot had been always on the other foot. I want to say to the disciples of free competition, because this is one of out charges against them—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where are they?"]—that we cannot have free competition on our own terms. The National Union of Mineworkers—with its memories—for the first time for half a century, could, had it wanted to, pay off old scores—and how many old scores it had to pay off! For the first time for over half a century we found ourselves with our product in demand and the market favouring us. What a wonderful time for free competition.
Coal was wanted. I have heard it described by my compatriot, David Lloyd George, in the faraway days of the First World War, as Britain's "black diamonds". That was after it had been Britain's dirt and the miners had been Britain's Cinderellas for fifty years. Suddenly the industry found itself in this position. What did it do? It did not take advantage of the market. It did not do a Mr. Clore. It entered into a gentleman's agreement that it would not increase the price of coal by one penny without Government consent. That is true. No one can deny that.
The industry was called upon to answer this national demand when it had all the advantages. This Government and the Government of which I was a member—I accept that—asked the industry to do that. However, I say that

1645
we have obligations to the industry in return. All the time that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite talk about coal they say "We must have consumers' choice. We must have free competition. The people must be allowed to buy what they like. Every industry must compete." Is that what they say to the coal miners? If so, why did they not say that to them then? They said something different to them when the market was on the coal miners' side. Is it not a raw deal that now the situation has changed, and changed very rapidly, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite should preach free competition to the miners?
They have no moral right to ask the industry to accept those burdens at this time when they prevented the industry from getting the fruits of competition when the industry could have taken advantage of the earlier conditions. I believe that it is no exaggeration to say that if the coal mining industry had been enabled to get the fruits of free competition in those years it would have built up reserves of hundreds of millions of pounds.
Because of this tremendous demand at home we compelled the industry—I say "we" for the moment, and we on this side accept that we as well as the present Government did it—to surrender its export market. Did we not? Of course we did. Then, later, when the demand became still more urgent, and even the increased output of the pits failed to meet it, we imported coal, and we imported coal from abroad and sold it at less than cost price to the steel owners. Did right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite object to that? Because of that nearly £70 million loss was borne by the Coal Board.
I know that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite will say that the Labour Government did it. I accept that. But I also accept this, that since we and the present Government placed burdens upon the coal industry, and since the industry played fair by the nation and gave its service to the nation and helped the nation to sustain full employment during all that time, now that it is facing this tremendous readjustment it has the right to ask the Government and the nation for due consideration in return.
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There are two things I want to say, first, about consumers' choice—my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth has spoken about that—and about protection. Apparently, for the first time since I have been a Member of the House I hear that the Conservatives are getting frightened of the word "protection". When we talk about protection for an industry they seem to be frightened by it. Why did right hon. and hon. Members opposite protect the steel industry? They did not say to the steel industry, "The consumers must have the right of choice. They must have the right to buy cheap Belgian steel if it is cheaper than yours." They said that we must have a tariff on steel and keep up prices. Who are they to talk about free competition?
Hon. Members: Where are they?
Mr. Griffiths: It is for that reason that we say to the Government—and this is our charge against them—that having tied down the mining industry for the nation during the whole of that period when the industry's product was in urgent demand, now that it is facing these difficulties they are throwing it to the wolves.
I come to the other matter. We are discussing this problem in what are probably the last days of this Parliament. It is a pity that the new plan of the Coal Board is not available to us. I want to ask a question or two, because the right hon. Gentleman said that if we produce a plan and then the facts change, then, as we cannot change the facts, the plan must be changed. The Government do not say that to other industries, but only to the coal industry. The Minister of Power, in another place, said of the discussions which were taking place that there could be a new base. I want to ask some questions about this, because I understand from what the right hon. Gentleman said that officials of the Ministry of Power and the Coal Board are meeting to discuss a revised plan.
It is quite clear that the plan laid down in 1950, when we on this side of the House were in power, and in 1955 by the party opposite, aiming at a target of 240 million tons in 1965, has gone. There is to be a new plan and a new base and that, obviously, will be something less than 240 million tons. The Minister used the term "base". What

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does he mean by it? Does he mean a base which the Government and the country guarantee? If not, the word is meaningless. Unless we have a new base of that kind the only alternative, I suppose, is to say to the coal mining industry, faced with these tremendous changes, "Now that you are confronted with these problems, you are free. Fight your way out."
I do not want to hark back to the past, but when I listened to the Paymaster-General's speech today I seemed to recall that I had heard those sentiments before, and I have. I put this very seriously to the House and to the country. Here we are confronted with a problem, as we were confronted with it in the 1920s. I was then an active member of my union and we were confronted with the task of readjusting the industry and contracting it because of world depression and a fall in exports from Durham, Northumberland and South Wales where the exporting industry was tremendously affected.
The Miners' Federation of Great Britain presented a plan. I remember sitting in the public gallery of the House of Commons and listening to Vernon Hartshorn speaking for the miners and for his constituency and pleading with the Government to adopt the plan. The plea was for a cushion, a Plimsoll line, and for orderly transition. I remember the then President of the Board of Trade, Sir Robert Horne, turning it down. He did not want a plan or any order. It was a case of, "Fight it out, and turn out cheap coal."
The coal owners won and the Government backed them up and we had an intensive fight and free competition. The price of coal was driven down. When I became president of the South Wales Miners' Federation, in 1934, the price of coal at the pithead was 9s. 7d. a ton. There were thousands of miners working six days for less than £2 a week and many tens of thousands working three days at 7s. a day, and we entered into competition in the European market.
We fought the Westphalian syndicate which charged a levy of £1 a ton on every ton of coal sold inland and used it to subsidise exports up to £2 a ton. We had to fight Polish competition in the Scandinavian market. I went to the
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Polish coalfields in the 1930s. I travelled 370 miles from Katowice to Gdynia and I found that the transport of coal was being subsidised. The coal was conveyed that 370 miles for less than it cost to transport coal 20 miles from the Rhondda to Cardiff.
Everybody had cheap coal and the consumers had their choice. What did it profit anybody in this country? I say to the industrialists, "When you had cheap coal at 9s. 7d. a ton, what did you do with it? Did you produce a prosperous and decent Britain?" The cheapness of coal brought the others down, and the cheapness of coal brought about a Britain of which I am sure everyone is now ashamed. [An HON. MEMBER: "Except the Tories."] I believe that the miners were right and the owners were wrong and the Tories were wrong. Will anyone deny that now?
This is the situation that confronts us. We shall divide against the Government because in our view the industry, having served the nation, the nation must stand by the industry and see it through. Immense changes must take place and I realise that the industry must contract. I say this, that if the time is reached in this country—perhaps not in my lifetime—when no one need go down a pit, I shall be very glad. It is not a nice job. In the meantime, there is the problem of contraction. Contraction means closed pits. Closed pits mean desolate communities. By the accident of geology the coal mining industry is concentrated. I often wish that it was not. I wish there were coal mines in the south of England. I would like to see one in Bournemouth. We are isolated from one another, and how easy it is to forget.
One of the things that has pleased me most in the past few years has been that for the first time in my life the miner and the nation have got nearer to one another. We lived apart, we were isolated. The rest of the nation to us was "them" and "they", far away. I remember one day being in the pit where I worked shortly after an explosion. I will not refer to it in detail, but hon. Members will understand that they were tense days.
One of the old miners on the spell, where we had a few minutes' wait before starting work, said, "I saw in the paper

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yesterday that as a result of the explosion they are to offer prayers for us on Sunday. When there is an explosion, they pray for us. When there is a strike, they curse us. In between, they forget all about us".
I do not beg this Government, because they will soon go. I speak to the nation. Do not let the miner be driven to that once more. You need them. I believe that the industry has a fine future if it is helped over this stile. Give it time, give it a breathing space, give it a Plimsoll line. I believe that it has a future if we learn how to use what somebody once described as the bottled sunshine of days past. We must learn how to extract the utmost from coal, but for many years we shall need men and lads in the pits. I say this kindly, because it is a fact, but we can only get pit lads from pit homes. Where else? What other home has given a lad to the pit? Unless we give the miners a square deal and give them a sense that we are now sharing their burdens, as they shared our burden in the years after the war, what right have we to ask them to go there?
The Minister said the other day that it would be a disaster for the country if the feeling grew in the mining areas that there was no future in coal. I hope that he will remember this when he is discussing the base, for this base, and the underwriting of it, is essential if we are to attract lads into the pits. We need them, but we have no right to ask for them unless we give them decent security for the future.
Lastly, on the question of mining communities, I join in the pleas made by my hon. Friends that we should begin now to discuss the new programme, which, I hope will be a phased, orderly one. Begin now to plan alternative industries before the pits are closed. What did we find in our area in South-West Wales—in the constituencies of my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr. D. J. Williams) and myself? We found there that the old pits, the old anthracite pits, were uneconomic and were losing money. New pits were being sunk, but suddenly the old pits were closed. They were closed two years before the new pits were ready. The men were unemployed. The young men have drifted away and we have lost them.
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This is the problem, and unless the Government face it there will be gaps of this kind and we shall lose the men. The communities also have a say in it. What will it gain this country if the village communities are lost and everybody lives in subtopias and conurbations? Something vital will have been lost from our lives.
I say at the turning point once more of the industry that we have tried competition. We have tried a price war, but we cannot have a price war without its soon becoming a wages war, and I do not want that. The industry has had enough of strife and turmoil. What it needs now is a decent chance, a Plimsoll line, an opportunity to build for the future. My right hon. and hon. Friends have no confidence that the Government will give it the Plimsoll line that it needs, and that is why we shall divide the House tonight.
9.26 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Sir Ian Horobin): I am glad that the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Mr. Snow) is in his place. I have heard nearly every speech in the debate, but he made some observations about me which I hope he will on reflection regret or even on some proper occasion withdraw. He suggested that during my tenure of office I had shown actual personal hostility to the miners. I know that my whole outlook on economics and politics is diametrically opposed to that of the hon. Gentleman, but I believe that there are many hon. Members, and not confined to this side of the House, who will do me the justice of believing that since I took this office nobody could have addressed himself more single-mindedly according to his lights to trying to push forward what he felt, rightly or wrongly, to be the best interests of the coal industry. Unless the coal industry is to live, there is no possibility of a happy, contented or secure life for the miners working in it.
Mr. Snow: I can only say what I feel. I have taken the trouble to read the hon. Gentleman's Answers to many Parliamentary Questions. I used the word "cynical" about him, and I think I am justified in that by the fact that hon. Members opposite have been absent for long periods from the Chamber this

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afternoon and this evening. I think that they represent his mentality towards the miners. I repeat the word "cynical"; I do not withdraw it.
Sir I. Horobin: I will leave that to the feeling of the House.
One of the most interesting things about this debate has been not so much what has been said from the Opposition benches but what has not been said. We still do not know whether right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite want to cut the nuclear programme drastically to assist coal. We still do not know whether they propose, if they ever have the power, to tax fuel oil heavily in order to help the coal industry. [Interruption.] It is what right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite did not say which is important. It is very easy to utter long and sentimental platitudes without committing oneself to anything definite.
The only two suggestions which were—[Interruption.] We listened very quietly to the speech of the hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), and I hope hon. Members opposite will now listen to my speech. We have had only two suggestions. Oddly enough, they came from this side of the House. They came from my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) has made several speeches, some of them standing, but most of them sitting down. I hope he will now try to listen.
The first suggestion was that we ought to pay compensation, or that the Coal Board ought to pay compensation, in order to bring about a more rapid reduction in opencast mining. I have dealt with this on a previous occasion in the House and have pointed out that the margin on which there could be any further discussion about opencast mining is much smaller than one might think, for reasons which I cannot now give in detail, although they are to be found in HANSARD. There is nothing in principle between us on this matter. If the Coal Board finds, in the very small number of sites where a reduction would be open to reasonable consideration—I quoted the number of about half-a-dozen on a previous occasion—that it can do a business deal on the basis of cutting down opencast production still further and paying compensation,
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the Government will not stand in the Board's way. There is certainly nothing between us on that.
The second and much more important proposal was that still further alterations should be made in the oil-to-coal conversions in the power stations. Here I must warn the House that the compensation would be of quite a different order and would be severe. Nevertheless, the Government do not dissent as a matter of principle from what was put forward by right hon. Gentlemen opposite and by certain hon. Members on this side of the House. If a free agreement on reasonable terms can be reached between the parties, the Government will not stand in the way. What we will not do is forcibly to break contracts, and I do not believe that the right hon. Member for Blyth is calling for that. Again, on this issue as a matter of general policy, we are not being asked to do anything which has not already been done and which we are prepared possibly to see carried further, bearing in mind the warning which I have given.
About 1955 the Coal Board said, in effect, that it could not produce the amount of coal which was likely to be needed in the power stations in 1965 by about 10 million tons. Something had to be done. Both parties agreed with the conversion to oil. A small portion of the energy was to be provided by nuclear power, but it was recognised that very little could be obtained from nuclear power for several years. Later, for other reasons, the nuclear power programme was expanded, but it was also expected that the demand for energy would be rather more, and that this would produce a situation in which there might have been a slight surplus in the middle 1960s. That would, however, have been in the middle 1960s and not now.
As soon as it began to be clear that in the future there would be a surplus, the nuclear power programme was rephased slightly. The oil programme has been reduced. We brought it back more or less to a rough balance. I do not see what else anybody could have done. Indeed, I do not see that we need argue whether that was or was not planning the place of the coal industry in the national economy.
Some interesting things have been said and I shall refer to one or two of them

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later, but I think it right, at the end of the debate, to bring the House back to the point raised by the Motion upon which we are to be asked to vote. This is not a general discussion of the coal industry—we have had such discussions in the past—but is, in effect, a censure of the Government for not planning. It is to that subject that I want to direct the main par) of my speech. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I will direct my speech to it, although whether anybody will be able to hear it depends on right hon. and hon. Members opposite.
This, of course, is part of the general discussion of Socialism versus the free economy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I make no complaint about that. There will always be Socialists as long as there is anything left to steal——
Hon. Members: Oh.
Mr. Bernard Taylor Mr. Bernard Taylor (Mansfield) rose——
Sir I. Horobin: —but that is no reason why a Conservative Government——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that hon. Members will allow us to hear the rest of the debate. Everybody cannot speak at once. Sir Ian Horobin.
Mr. Taylor: Is the Parliamentary Secretary entitled to refer to us as thieves?
Mr. Speaker: I have frequently ruled that an expression which, if used about an individual Member, would be a gross breach of order, is not out of order when applied to a party. I have heard many hard things said about parties.
Sir I. Horobin: The main proposition that I want to put to the House is this whole conception—[Interruption.]——
Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Members must listen to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary.
Mr. Robens: I should like to put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that we can conduct these debates with all the cut and thrust that goes with them only of Ministers, and particularly junior Ministers, learn to be at least unoffensive or not so necessarily offensive to those on this side of the House. I want to draw your attention to the fact—[An HON. MEMBER: "He cannot take it."] I can give it, never mind take it. What the
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Parliamentary Secretary said may not have been an expression that is not to be used in this House, but it was a very offensive remark. He said that there would always be Socialists while there were things to steal. [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Members ought at least to listen to their own right hon. Member.
Mr. Robens: I want to put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that the Parliamentary Secretary's remark was unnecessarily offensive. If I were to say that there would always be Conservatives while there was loot and private profit to be got that would be just as offensive. I ask you whether you do not think it worth while to draw the attention of those people at the Box to the subject under discussion and ask them to continue the debate; otherwise it will be impossible for the debate to continue, despite the fact that you are in the Chair.
Mr. Speaker: I ask the House to have a certain sense of perspective about this. I am always averse to hon. Members on either side of the House using expressions of an inflammatory or inciting nature. I do my best to assuage the natural tendency of hon. Members occasionally to indulge in sharp words, but I cannot prevent it unless the rules of order allow me to do so. I think that the House ought to take these things as part of our Parliamentary proceedings and although frequently one may not like what is said by the other side in this House, one ought to take it in the spirit in which it is delivered.
Mr. Shinwell: On a point of order. Would it be Parliamentary, Mr. Speaker, if I said that there was nothing left to steal, because the other side had stolen the lot?
Mr. Speaker: I think we might pass from the pleasantries and get on with the debate.
Sir I. Horobin: The hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth made a very wounding and damaging personal reference to me. He did not take the opportunity to withdraw it. Hon. Members must now take it from me.
The main point I want to put to the House, if I am allowed to, is this—and

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I think it is the main point separating the two sides. The whole notion of planning—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]—that one can determine within 5 per cent.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]—the whole notion that one can determine within 5 per cent., five years ahead——
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I should be very sorry to have to adjourn the House, but if this goes on I shall have to. As far as the rules of order allow me, I will check the words that are used, but I hope the House will listen to the rest of the debate in silence. The trouble is that everyone is trying to speak at once. We can only have one speaker at a time.
Mr. Mason: I am one of the Socialists to whom the hon. Member has referred, and I am proud of it. Having made a contribution to this debate, however, I take great exception to being called a thief, and I expect the Speaker of this House to give me the protection to which I am entitled. There is no point in being called an hon. Member if Mr. Speaker does not defend my right to be called it.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member was not called a thief. In the course of his own speech, as he will remember if he thinks back, he said some very hard things about the other side.
Mr. J. Griffiths: Are we to understand that what the hon. Member has said is a foretaste of what the party opposite will say when the election comes? It has the familiar ring of 1924 and 1931.
Mr. Speaker: I am sorry, but I cannot answer that question. I am rather grateful to think that I shall not be involved in that controversy. I would ask the House to behave itself. Other people are looking at us.
Sir I. Horobin Sir I. Horobin rose——
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Sir I. Horobin: I do not know whether the House wishes the debate to continue.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Sir I. Horobin: The National Coal Board has very carefully been attempting to decide the likely demands of a whole
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series of its customers. It has attempted, with some success and with agreement with us, to determine what is the likely demand of electricity, gas and industry in general. It has added up those figures and arrived at the best estimate that can be prepared of likely demands. Further, as in the past, the Government have attempted to estimate the likely total fuel demand. We have tried to bring the best informed guesses of both the Coal Board and the Government into agreement, and there will be a substantial bracket around them.
Sir James Hutchison: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear hear."] As the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) has indicated that hon. Members on these benches were plunderers and as the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) indicated, or said, that hon. Members on these benches had alrealy stolen all the coal—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—may we not at last call quits in this matter, and get on with the debate?—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that is very sensible. I ask hon. Members not to abuse the power they have, by sitting in their seats and making a noise.
Sir I. Horobin: The best efforts that the Coal Board and the Government have been able to make has reduced the amount—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] When I sit down I shall not talk—you talk when you are sitting down.
We have to bear in mind that that bracket must be something of the order of 15 million tons. It is worth bearing in mind that a possible award of a tribunal in the future could easily make a difference of 15 million tons in the Coal Board's production of coal in a year. Therefore, the difference between us is this, that we must make the best estimate we can with the Coal Board, but we realise at once that it can be very little better than a guide.
Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite try to turn a statistical exercise into a straitjacket. If their policy means anything, it means, that, if the circumstances change, either they will compel people to buy coal they do not want or they will produce a situation in which the coal, or the fuel required, will not be available

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on. fair terms. The difficulty about this debate, which has been recognised by hon. Members on both sides—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."]—is that even those of us on both sides of the House who want to debate it are not in possession of the Coal Board's Plan. That, however, does not mean that we have no sort of picture of what is likely to be happening to the coal industry in 1965. In the last year we were producing about the same amount of coal with many fewer men. [Interruption.] It is quite clear, indeed, it has been clear ever since the original "Plan for Coal," that approximately the same amount of coal as is used now will be produced, with many fewer men and many fewer pits but with a greater output per man-shift. That better productivity will be at the expense of a substantial number of closures. In "Plan for Coal" it was expected that by 1965 the number of pits working would be between 200 and 300 less than now.
These closures present a very serious problem for us all but the problem must not be exaggerated. The only chance for men in the industry to keep their livelihood is that the industry, whether nationalised or not—that is not the question tonight—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—the industry as it is, must be made competitive. People will not go on buying something dear if they can get something better cheap.
The right hon. Member for Blyth, in one of his speeches—I cannot remember whether it was when he was vertical or horizontal—said that there would be between 60 and 100 closures next year and between 300 and 350 closures before 1965. The right hon. Gentleman was very confident about those figures. I am equally confident that he will be proved wrong.
In the last twelve months—if hon. Members cannot hear they had better stop talking—no very serious unemployment has resulted and the Coal Board has done a very good job. It was possible for it to provide money to finance the extra millions of tons of stocks. Experience shows—[Interruption.]—the right hon. Member for Blyth will go on talking—that the total unemployment as a result of the closures will be very much less than the pictures the alarmists have painted. I cannot agree with everything that the right hon. Member for
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Llanelly said about the need to take action early as soon as closures are decided upon. I suggest a phasing of these closures, which will be substantial. It was always expected that they would be substantial, as is mentioned in "Plan for Coal"; but it is not an unmanageable task.
Here I come to observations which have been made on both sides of the House that our job is to support and encourage the National Coal Board to go forward with the only possible policy which will make the continuance of the coal industry on anything like its present scale possible. A good many anticipations have been made, and I would correct those which indicate that the fall in coal demand will go on at its present rate. I cannot go into exact figures until plans have been finalised and presented to the Government, but I do not dissent from the broad picture put by the right hon. Member for Blyth and my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminser that about 200 million tons, approximately the present production, is likely to be needed during the next four to six years.
In those circumstances, prophecies of woe are out of place. They damage the prospects of recruitment. It is one thing to say that the industry should make itself competitive if it is to survive, and another to say that it cannot be done and that the industry is on its way out. That is false. I am not attributing blame to anybody for the fact that the coal industry has priced itself out of the market in recent years. When we came into office the import price of fuel oil was nearly £1 per ton higher than it is now, and the pithead price of coal was 30s. a ton less than it is now. That is the plain fact.
My time tonight has been less well spent than it might have been. I shall not be able to answer the points put by the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason), which I would like to have done, and one or two other points. The question which we have to decide is whether we think, in the light of experience, that we shall do better for the coal industry by giving it a reasonably elastic estimate, to the best of our ability, of what it could sell if it could make itself competitive, or alternatively, cripple its markets with a statutory monopoly and

1659
compel people to take its products whether they want them or not.
I should like to have spoken about the gas problem, as some points have been raised in connection with that matter, but in the remaining few minutes I should like to bring this issue back to the plain question: do we plan or do we not? On this side of the House we just do not believe that it is necessary or desirable to go back to the days of power cuts and coal rationing. We have not the slightest intention of allowing
any industry to ride roughshod over the preferences, the pockets or the efficiency of the rest of the country. I believe that that policy is a recipe for disaster. It will do no good to the coal industry and, in the long run, it will do no good to the miners. That policy, indeed, will do no good to hon. Members opposite, but they will not pay attention.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 238, Noes 304.

Division No. 174.]

AYES

[9.57 p.m.

Abso, Leo

Fletcher, Eric

MacColl, J. E.

Ainsley, J. W.

Foot, D. M.

MacDermot, Niall

Albu, A. H.

Forman, J. C.

McInnes, J.

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

McLeavy, Frank

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Car'then)

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Awbery, S. S.

Gibson, C. W.

Mahon, Simon

Bacon, Miss Alice

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Baird, J

Greenwood, Anthony

Mann, Mrs. Jean

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

Grey, C. F.

Mason, Roy

Benson, Sir George

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Mayhew, C. P.

Beswick, Frank

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

Mendelson, J. J.

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Griffiths, William (Exchange)

Mitchison, G. R.

Blackburn, F.

Hale, Leslie

Monslow, W.

Blenkinsop, A.

Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Moody, A. S.

Blyton, W. R.

Hamilton, W. W.

Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

Boardman, H.

Hannan, W.

Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert (Lewis'm, S.)

Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

Hastings, S.

Mort, D. L.

Bowden, H. W. (Leicester S. W.)

Hayman, F. H.

Moss, R.

Boyd, T. C.

Healey, Denis

Moyle, A.

Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

Mulley, F. W.

Brockway, A. F.

Herbison, Miss M.

Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Hilton, A. V.

Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. p. (Derby, S.)

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Holman, P.

O'Brien, Sir Thomas

Burton, Miss F. E.

Holmes, Horace

Oliver, G. H.

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, c.)

Houghton, Douglas

Oram, A. E.

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

Orbach, M.

Carmichael, J.

Howell, Denis (All Saints)

Oswald, T.

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Owen, W. J.

Champion, A. J,

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

Padley, W. E.

Chapman, W. D.

Hunter, A. E.

Paget, R. T.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Hynd, H, (Accrington)

Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

Cliffe, Michael

Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Clunie, J.

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Palmer, A. M. F.

Coldrick, W.

Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Pargiter, G. A.

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Janner, B.

Parker, J.

Cronin, J. D.

Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

Parkin, B. T.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Jeger, Mrs. Lena (Holbn & St. Pncs,S.)

Paton, John

Cullen, Mrs. A.

Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

Peart, T. F.

Darling, George (Hillsborough)

Johnson, James (Rugby)

Pentland, N.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

Plummer, Sir Leslie

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Probert, A. R.

Delargy, H. J.

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Proctor, W. T.

Diamond, John

Kenyon, C.

Pursey, Cmdr. H.

Dodds, N. N.

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Randall, H. E.

Donnelly, D. L.

King, Dr. H. M.

Rankin, John

Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Bromwich)

Lawson, G. M.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Ledger, R. J.

Redhead, E. C.

Edelman, M.

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Reid, William

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Reynolds, G. W.

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Rhodes, H.

Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.)

Lipton, Marcus

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Fernyhough, E.

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Finch, H. J. (Bedweilty)

McAlister, Mrs. Mary

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

Fitch, A. E. (Wigan)

McCann, J.

Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

Ross, William

Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

Royle, C.

Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

Wigg, George

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Swingler, S. T.

Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

Short, E. W.

Sylvester, G. O.

Wilkins, W. A.

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Symonds, J. B.

Williams, David (Neath)

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

Skeffington, A. M.

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Snow, J. W

Thornton, E.

Winterbottom, Richard

Sorensen, R. W.

Tomney, F.

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

Woof, R. E.

Sparks, J. A.

Usborne, H. C.

Yates, V. (Ladywood)

Spriggs, Leslie

Viant, S. P.

Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

Steele, T.

Warbey, W. N.

Zilliacus, K.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

Watkins, T. E.

Stonehouse, John

Weitzman, D.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Stones, W. (Consett)

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Pearson

Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

NOES

Agnew, Sir Peter

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Aitken, W. T.

Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

Hesketh, R. F.

Alport, C. J. M.

Cunningham, Knox

Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

Currie, G. B. H.

Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

Dance, J. C. G.

Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

Davidson, Viscountess

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Arbuthnot, John

D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Hirst, Geoffrey

Armstrong, C. W.

Deedes, W. F.

Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

Ashton, Sir Hubert

de Ferranti, Basil

Holland-Martin, C. J.

Astor, Hon. J. J.

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Holt, A. F.

Atkins, H. E.

Doughty, C. J. A.

Hope, Lord John

Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

Drayson, G. B.

Hornby, R. P.

Baldwin, Sir Archer

du Cann, E, D. L.

Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

Balniel, Lord

Duncan, Sir James

Horobin, Sir Ian

Barber, Anthony

Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

Barlow, Sir John

Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth West)

Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

Barter, John

Eillott, R. W. (Ne'castle upon Tyne, N.)

Howard, John (Test)

Batsford, Brian

Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

Baxter, Sir Beverley

Errington, Sir Eric

Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

Beamish, Col. Tufton

Erroll, F. J.

Hurd, Sir Anthony

Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

Farey-Jones, F. W.

Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)

Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

Fell, A.

Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

Finlay, Graeme

Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.)

Bennett, Dr. Reginald

Fisher, Nigel

Hyde, Montgomery

Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

Fletcher-Cooke, C.

Hylton-Foster Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

Bldgood, J. C.

Foster, John

Iremonger, T. L.

Biggs-Davison, J. A.

Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Bingham, R. M.

Freeth, Denzil

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

Bishop, F. P.

Gammans, Lady

Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)

Black, Sir Cyril

Garner-Evans, E. H.

Johnson Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Body, R. F.

George, J. C. (Pollok)

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Bonham Carter, Mark

Gibson-Watt, D.

Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

Bossom, Sir Alfred

Glover, D.

Joseph, Sir Keith

Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

Glyn, Col. Richard H.

Kaberry, D.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Godber, J. B.

Keegan, D.

Braine, B. R.

Goodhart, Philip

Kerby, Capt. H. B.

Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

Gough, C. F. H.

Kerr, Sir Hamilton

Brewis, John

Gower, H. R.

Kershaw, J. A.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Graham, Sir Fergus

Kimball, M.

Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside)

Kirk. P. M.

Brooman-White, R. C.

Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

Lagden, G. W.

Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

Green, A.

Lambton, Viscount

Bryan, P.

Gresham Cooke, R.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

Grimond, J.

Langford-Holt, J. A.

Butcher, Sir Herbert

Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

Leavey, J. A.

Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron Walden)

Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

Leburn, W. G.

Campbell, Sir David

Gurden, Harold

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Carr, Robert

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

Cary, Sir Robert

Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

Channon, H. P. G.

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

Linstead, Sir H. N.

Chichester-Clark, R.

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Llewellyn, D. T.

Cole, Norman

Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

Lloyd, Ma). Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

Longden, Gilbert

Cooke, Robert

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

Loveys, Walter H.

Cooper, A. E.

Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

Cooper-Key, E. M-

Harvie-Watt, Sir George

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

Hay, John

Lucas, P. B.(Brentford & Chiswick)

Corfield, F. V.

Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

McAdden, S. J.

Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

Macdonald, Sir Peter

1662

1663

Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

Partridge, E.

Storey, S.

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

Peel, W. J.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

McLean Nell (Inverness)

Peyton, J. W. W.

Studholme, Sir Henry

Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain (Enfield, W.)

Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

Summers, Sir Spencer

McMaster, Stanley

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

Pitman, I. J.

Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

Macpherson, Nial (Dumfries)

Pitt, Miss E. M.

Teeling, W.

Maddan, Martin

Pott, H. P.

Temple, John M.

Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W.(Horncastle)

Powell, J. Enoch

Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Markham, Major Sir Frank

Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Profumo, J. D.

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

Ramsden, J. E.

Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

Marshall, Douglas

Rawilnson, Peter

Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

Mathew, R.

Redmayne, M.

Tilney, John (Wavertree)

Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

Remnant, Hon. P.

Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

Mawby, R. L.

Renton, D. L. M.

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

Ridsdale, J. E.

Vane, W. M. F.

Medlicott, Sir Frank

Rippon, A. G. F.

Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

Vickers, Miss Joan

Moore, Sir Thomas

Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

Morrison, John (Salisbury)

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Roper, Sir Harold

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

Nabarro, G. D. N.

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

Nairn, D. L. S.

Russell, R. S.

Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

Nicholls, Harmar

Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

Webbe, Sir H.

Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

Sharples, R. C.

Webster, David

Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E.& Chr'ch)

Shepherd, William

Whitelaw, W. S. I.

Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Sir Allan

Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

Noble, Michael (Argyll)

Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

Nugent, Richard

Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

Speir, R. M.

Wood, Hon. B.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

Woollam, John Victor

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Stevens, Geoffrey

Yates, William (The Wrekin)

Orr-Ewing, C. Ian (Hendon, N.)

Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

Page, R. G.

Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Mr. Legh and Mr. E. Wakefield.

IMPORT DUTIES (CHEMICALS)
Import Duties (Temporary Exemptions) (No. 7) Order, 1959 (S.I., 1959, No. 1204), dated 10th July, 1959 [copy laid before the House, 14th July], approved.—[Mr. Vaughan-Morgan.]

CHURCHES, WEST KILBURN (REORGANISATION SCHEME)
10.9 p.m.
Mr. B. T. Parkin: I beg to move,
That the Scheme for the rearrangement of the churches of the benefice and parish of Saint Luke the Evangelist with Saint Simon and Saint Jude, West Kilburn (including the demolition of Saint Jude's Church) in the Rural Deanery of Paddington, in the Diocese of London, which was laid before this House on 30th June, be disapproved.
When the Scheme to which this Motion refers was made known locally, there was considerable anxiety and dismay among a number of my constituents, because, although they realised that the congregation at this church was declining to a point when it could no longer sustain a full church, there were associated with the church a number of very useful social activities, particularly for young people.
Any loss of social activities in an area like ours is a grievous matter. I received representations and I wrote to the authorities concerned, including the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Sir H. Ashton), who is in his place tonight representing the Church Commissioners, and I received courteous and full replies. I said to the hon. Gentleman that there could be many useful purposes to which the building could be put. He replied that the Church Commissioners would be interested to know what I had in mind. I set out one of them. I suggested that the church might well become a useful religious, cultural and welfare centre for West Indians in the area. The reply from the archdeacon, the secretary of the diocese, was an understanding one, but he pointed out, first, that the Church had done a good deal in that direction in two neighbouring parishes and that this Scheme was so worked out that the demolition of one church was necessary so that two more could be repaired and reorganised. That is a reasonable proposition.
My purpose in raising the matter tonight is chiefly to say that if the House passes the Scheme—and I have little doubt that it will, because it is a sensible and businesslike Scheme—Parliament itself should pick up the responsibilities which the Church has felt obliged to lay down in the area. The only point
1666
in the archdeacon's reply to me with which I could possibly disagree was his suggestion that perhaps this particular church was not best placed strategically for the purpose I had in mind.
It is a strange coincidence that only last Monday night a petition was brought to me by two residents in the road in which the church stands, signed by no fewer than 64 residents who also live in the road, asking that something be done to restore peace to the road, because four named houses occupied by coloured residents made too much noise at night.
One does not have to wait until there are dramatic incidents before having troubles to deal with in overcrowded areas. This is a very good example of the way that misunderstandings and tensions can grow. There could not have been two nicer people than those who brought the petition to me. They leaned over backwards to explain that there was no question of colour prejudice and that they did not accuse these people of doing anything against the law. They doubted whether one could find anything against them under the law, unless, perhaps, they sold bottled beer to one another at their parties, but they said that the residents would like some sleep and that they were not accustomed to that method of activity.
I am sure that this is accepted by the Home Office as an important factor in the troubles that sometimes arise and I am grateful to the hon. Lady the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department for taking the trouble to occupy her place during this discussion. I am sure that she will recognise from the investigations made last year that troubles sometimes start not from criminal or dramatic activities, but from these simple misunderstandings and differences of social habits.
I should like for a moment to describe the nature of the area, because the closing of this church is connected with causes, implications and consequences far beyond the boundaries of the ecclesiastical parish. This church is on a boundary line between two sections of my constituency which are as different as chalk and cheese. On the one hand, we have a settled community of working-class dwellings of an old-fashioned type, full of occupants who, for the most part,

1667
have lived there the whole of their lives. Just across the road there is a complex of streets built in different conditions and different designs where there is a shifting population—a turn-over of tenement dwellers who are not always content to live there for very long if they can get elsewhere.
There is an area where there is, and always has been, overcrowding and the social problems that arise therefrom. One can almost mark out by chalk lines on the pavement in my constituency, areas in which difficulties can arise, from which one must conclude that something to do with the system of ownership of houses or the housing problem lies very much at the root of these difficulties.
I am not here tonight to talk about this as a colour problem. I am quite sure that it is not. Indeed, I do not believe that there is a colour problem. This is another version of the problem which recurs generation after generation in any great capial city. That is why I am suggesting that what might appear to be a small constituency point is, in fact, a matter of national interest and national responsibility.
In any great capital city—I am sure that they have similar problems in New York and in Moscow—large groups of people come to take over the tens of thousands of unskilled and semi-skilled jobs on offer and to do the work which the city requires to keep it serviced. We have seen, in generation after generation, the children of these people getting trained and being unwilling to take over low-paid jobs and departing elsewhere. Their place is taken by others.
In discussing this problem one of my colleagues said that when in the 'thirties he was adopted as prospective candidate for a London constituency and started canvassing, he heard on the doorsteps, in some instances, accusations and reproaches and complaints against the Welsh who were then coming from the areas of unemployment to seek jobs. Hon. Members will be able to think of other parallels. I suggest, therefore, that this problem is not new. It is a problem which will not be ending when we have got over this lot of difficulties, because there will always be changes of population
1668
brought about by forces outside the immediate neighbourhood concerned. It will take a long time to find all the answers.
I am not taking advantage of the procedure of this House to try to advertise any of the solutions which I think might be desirable, but it is only fair that we should list the difficulties themselves in connection with housing and the ownership of houses. The problem that we have in certain areas is that tenement houses are bought on the market partially empty, and the price is forced up to an utterly unrealistic figure. The house is either bought by an immigrant at an enormous price which he can recover only by overcrowding it and perhaps exploiting other members of his own people whom he has in and to whom he charges high rents, or it becomes a subject of speculation. In a street near the chapel, a couple of Italians bought two of these houses with the sole purpose of letting them out to West Indian immigrants.
There is the problem of social activities and the fact, as instanced by this petition, of people living in these overcrowded conditions who do not know where to go to find relaxation and enjoyment. There is no provision for that.
If the hon. Lady has any influence with the brewers she might draw their attention to the fact that many immigrants, like many English people, are not quite satisfied with the provisions in some English public-houses of the old-fashioned type and that there might be in them better provision for family entertainment, for music, where general noise can be reasonably sealed off from the rest of the community or, at least, made in a proper place.
The hon. Lady will know that the Home Office gets many approaches on the subject of clubs, but she will also know that the flourishing of the sort of clubs which most of us would dislike is encouraged by just this seeking for some place of relaxation. It is not what the people are offered in the form of these clubs that they want in the first place. It is just that they want somewhere to go.
There are other problems to come. There is the problem of the absorption of their children into the working community. In due course there will be

1669
the problem of looking after the old immigrants. Accusations are sometimes made about immigrants living on National Assistance and being layabouts and so on. They have for the most part left their parents behind them, and they have to send back home contributions to sustain the old folk. That may become a problem for us, too. They will, perhaps, need a different kind of home life themselves in old age.
When I was dreaming about what this building could have been used for had it been available, when I was thinking of the possibilities of a cultural and welfare centre, I had in mind that there might be co-ordination of welfare work and the accumulation of case work experience and of records which would be of value to those who want to study these matters and come to useful conclusions. I thought that there surely is a need and that Parliament ought to voice the need for some research. I am not tonight making propaganda for short-term measures. Looking at it in a long-term way—the church has been there a long time—surely we need some sort of co-ordination of effort and research.
I have in mind some parallel to the idea which has led the Home Secretary to press for the Institute of Criminology at Cambridge, which is being established not, of course, because nobody has studied the subject but because there is scope for co-ordination of the studies which have been made all over the place. I should like to see in parallel an Institute of Social Ecology for the study of these problems of unbalance in the community, the problem of shifting population, the problem of learning how to live together. Through that one could, perhaps, co-ordinate the efforts which have been made and the knowledge which has been accumulated by a number of devoted people in this country and in other parts of the world—for many studies have been made. If this could be brought together I think it would be valuable.
If I am making an appeal tonight I am making it not only to this House but beyond the boundaries of this House, and I have in mind some of those people who have accumulated vast wealth and want to know what to do with it and how to devote it to good causes. Perhaps some have accumulated wealth
1670
through their studies of and interest in human problems. There are some who have made great success in television. There are some people of great ability and judgment who have done well enough in television and whose television companies study these human problems. I would hope that perhaps one or another of them might come forward with a proposal to endow just such an institute as I have in mind.
If that should happen, I should feel that it had been worth while asking the hon. Member for Chelmsford to stay a little late and to listen to this plea from a constituency Member. It is not that we would attack his Scheme, but that we do not want to let it pass in silence without responsibility being accepted for dealing with the problem which lay behind this change in the organisation of the Church, a change which laid upon the Church a burden heavier than it could reasonably have been expected to sustain. I hope that if someone comes along with this alternative help they will still have, as I am sure they will, the co-operation of the Church in carrying out the work.
10.26 p.m.
Mr. A. Blenkinsop: I beg to second the Motion.
I do so on the ground of the very great interest which, with many of my colleagues on both sides of the House, I feel in this social problem, particularly with respect to some of the coloured immigrants whom we realise are facing very real difficulties because of the lack of welfare provisions.
10.27 p.m.
Sir Hubert Ashton: At the outset, I should like to express my appreciation of the earlier remarks made by the hon. Member for Padding-ton, North (Mr. Parkin) about the attitude of the Church Commissioners to this somewhat complicated problem. The hon. Member has been extremely courteous to me as their representative in the House and I very much appreciate it.
Perhaps I should confine myself to the Church problems in this relatively confined area, which I visited yesterday. It is the case that, after very careful consideration, the Church authorities feel that they must close St. Jude's Church.

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Anyone who worships in a church and has it closed must, naturally, feel a little anxious about it. But within a relatively short distance of this church there are two others, St. Luke the Evangelist, which was destroyed during the war and now is being rebuilt as a church centre for evangelical work, and St. Simon, which has proved very satisfactory as a parish church. It is quite popular and is well used. As I saw yesterday, a short distance from that church there is the church hall, which should be completed by the end of the year and used for social activities of all kinds.
Anyone who visits the area will realise at once that there is a colour problem, but I do not think that it would be right for me, as the representative of the Church Commissioners, to go into great detail on that subject. We should like to be kept in touch with any developments that take place and take our part in endeavouring to solve what obviously is a considerable problem.
There is another point to be made about St. Jude's. I believe that the local authorities have some difficulty in finding spaces on which to build new houses and flats. That is a very urgent social problem. If and when St. Jude's is demolished there will be quite a considerable area on which new flats can be built which will go part of the way, at least, towards solving the problems of the coloured people and others in Paddington.
I think that the right decision has been made. Indeed, the hon. Member for Paddington, North has not disputed that. He has pointed out that this is a problem which concerns all of us. I can give an assurance, on behalf of the Church, that if we can help in any direction possible to us, and if we are kept in touch with developments, as the hon. Member has been kind enough to keep us, we shall render every possible assistance.
10.30 p.m.
Mr. James MacColl: I am deeply grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington, North (Mr. Parkin) for moving this Motion. I did not feel that I could second it. It would be a little difficult for me, as a member of the ruridecanal conference in the rural deanery concerned, to second a
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Motion against something which has the full approval of the ruridecanal and diocesan authorities. However, I am deeply grateful to my hon. Friend for having given us an opportunity to say something about the problem in Paddington, and particularly about the social problems created by immigration.
I should like to say to my hon. Friend that the Church in Paddington is very alive to the problems, is very anxious to do all it can and is doing a great deal already. It is extremely active. I happen to be the chairman of a coordinating committee directly concerned with dealing with the problems of overseas students and workers, and in the use of the hospitality of church halls and in the personal interest of the various denominations we receive the greatest possible assistance. There is no doubt at all that the "Church on the ground"—as well as the Bishop of Kensington and the diocesan bishop, for both of whom I can speak—is most anxious to see more done in the way of the provision of facilities. I will come back to that in a moment.
I have what is perhaps stop-press news for my hon. Friend. For reasons which he will fully appreciate, I had to leave a borough council meeting rather hurriedly not long ago to come to the House. The borough council was just about to approve the appointment of an additional member of its staff who would be directly responsible for caring for just the sort of problems involved, not purely colour problems or problems of immigrants but the general community problems of getting people with different interests and different tastes to learn tolerance and understanding and to live together.
I am a noisy and obstreperous member of the opposition in my borough council, but I should like to pay a tribute to it for doing something which will be a very considerable contribution to the solution of the problem. Alas! it is only one contribution. I have another scheme under my hat for doing in another part of the borough very much the sort of job which my hon. Friend suggests ought to be done. What is holding us up is nothing less than money. The difficulty is not people, and in this case it is not the site. The problem is where to get the money from to maintain this work and provide the capital with which to

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equip a centre to provide the kind of service to which my hon. Friend referred.
It is not just a question of developing some of the work that we have been doing over the past three or four years for which we have been receiving a grant towards our small costs from a charitable trust. That work is likely to come to an end simply because we cannot raise the money. That is the problem. It is no use our having pious ideas and feelings of good will. The brutal truth is that unless more money is available to provide the basic needs of equipment, of people to run the centre and that kind of thing we shall fail to do the work, and we shall have to confess to the whole world our failure in a very critical situation.
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, whose knowledge and understanding of this question are very real, for having given us the opportunity to look at this situation in the borough. It is a worrying and serious situation, but it has many happy sides to it, because in many directions we are able to make positive contributions to getting people to live together and to understand each other. Although, in many ways, I am optimistic, I become depressed simply because of the feeling that some of this frustration arises from the fact that the ordinary sources of grants, for example, are so difficult to adjust to this kind of problem.
10.36 p.m.
Sir Leslie Plummer: As my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. MacColl) said, we are grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington, North (Mr. Parkin) for having raised this matter, for reasons which I will give in a moment, and we are also grateful to the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Sir H. Ashton) for the attitude which he has adopted. I do not join in the debate to take much of the time of the House, but because I represent a constituency in London which is beginning, for the first time, to feel the impact of the West Indian immigrants into the constituency.
We have nothing like the problem which exists in North Paddington and we have nothing comparable with the Notting Hill situation. Nevertheless, in a borough where housing shortage is
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acute, there are certain social implications from the immigration of many people from different lands, who have different standards, and who are living different lives. I do not believe that we shall get into the situation which has existed in some London boroughs where there have been dire and terrible results, for I believe that what has been said by the hon. Member for Chelmsford offers us an opportunity in areas such as I have described, where this new immigration is beginning to take place, of trying to find out what is the best way of meeting the social upsets and problems.
I believe that one of the best ways of doing this work is through the Church, because this is the common meeting ground of both the people who are receiving immigrants and the immigrants themselves. I have found that, on the whole, the immigrants who come to my constituency are deeply religious people who belong in the West Indies to the Church of England and who gravitate automatically and naturally to the Church when they come into the area. There they meet the most helpful and conciliatory people in the borough.
This is, however, a new problem, and the people who are meeting the immigrants are not familiar with it. They are not quite sure what is the best way of trying to help these people. They do their best, but the situation is so new and the problems are so acute that they need guidance. We have argued over and over again in the House that one of the things which we must do is to oppose discrimination of all sorts, whether it is against West Indians or West Africans, or against people of different religions, and we have not done very much about meeting this discrimination, because we are inexperienced in handling it.
I address this suggestion to the hon. Member for Chelmsford. I believe that a very valuable service would be provided by the Church if it set up a study group to do what the Government should be doing but are failing to do—to see how discrimination is handled in other lands, particularly in America and particularly in the City of New York, where there is an anti-discrimination law and where it is illegal to permit discrimination against people because of their race, their colour or their religion. It is illegal

1675
to say that a man cannot live in a house in a certain street, or cannot be employed, because of his race or his colour or his religion. It is illegal to say that he shall not be permitted to enter bars or hotels or restaurants.
When I am told, as I have been told in the House, that this legislation would not work in this country, I have to point out that it certainly works in New York, because when I was in that city this time last year I noted a number of successful prosecutions being conducted against people who had practised discrimination.
This needs study. The best instrument for studying it is the Church. If the Church would establish a study group to investigate the problem and make representations to its own people here, on the basis of this study, that would be a most important contribution. I am moved to say this to the hon. Gentleman because he said that the Church would do all it possibly could to meet this situation.
Sir H. Ashton: It is not exactly a Church problem, but so far as we can co-operate we shall be only too glad to do so.
Sir L. Plummer: I do not want to misrepresent the hon. Gentleman, and I am sure that he will acquit me of any intention of that kind. But, of course, this is the Church's problem. It is one of humanity and, therefore, one for the Church. I am saying that because I believe that the hon. Gentleman addressed himself to the matter in the spirit of trying to be helpful. I made the suggestion that here is a golden opportunity for the Church to help to solve this appalling problem which exists in London and in many other cities by using its influence and what money it has in the sort of study that would help us all.
10.40 p.m.
Mr. Maurice Orbach: I wish to support my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington, North (Mr. Parkin) and to pay tribute to his ingenuity in introducing as a result of this Motion a great problem that we should be discussing, and, finally, to support the very wide and, I think, wise and constructive suggestion that he made at the end of his speech.
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Some months ago all of us in the House and people outside were disturbed at what had happened at Notting Dale. It is true that responsible bodies outside that area immediately moved in to bring about a state of affairs there which would lessen the tension and would bring about good relations between the people living in that area. I understand that about 40 organisations have been concerned in doing good work in Notting Dale and in North Kensington. Some of them have experience of this problem; others have none.
I very much regret to say that some of the statements that have been issued by some of the organisations point to the creation of greater difficulties in the area than existed even as a result of the incidents which we all deplore. It seems to me that the most valuable thing said this evening on the subject is the need for the co-ordination and canalisation of the vast amount of information that is already available.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dept-ford (Sir L. Plummer) spoke about the Fair Employment Practices Acts which exist, I think, in about 17 States of the United States and in almost every one of the States in the Dominion of Canada. I have attended the courts of the Fair Employment Practices Act in New York. I was, in fact, asked on one occasion to assist in dealing with a case of employment discrimination.
The Home Office—and I am very happy that the hon. Lady the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department will be making a statement on this subject—having received deputations recently on the subject of prejudice and discrimination and incitement to racial tension——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): We ought to keep to the Scheme.
Mr. Orbach: I think that this problem of discrimination is only one of the series of problems with which we have to deal in a shifting population. I am very happy that my hon. Friend refrained from mentioning the word "colour", because in my constituency we dealt, of course, with the Welsh immigrants who came from derelict coal mines between the wars, we had the Irish contingents who came after the end of

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the last war, and in recent years we have had the immigration of many of our citizens from the Commonwealth.
We have been fortunate in that incidents of the sort which occurred in Notting Dale did not occur in Willesden, and I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington, North would agree that he has been fortunate in that they have not occurred in Paddington. In Willesden, we have set up our own community association. We have not related it to any specific problem existing in the area today. We have dealt with the issue as my hon. Friend would like it dealt with—as a problem of shifting populations. We may, as a result of Federation in the Caribbean, re-attract to the West Indies——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have asked the hon. Member to keep to the Scheme. The Caribbean has nothing to do with the Scheme.
Mr. Orbach: I appreciate that, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but I thought I could mention it, since all the other hon. Members who have spoken have gone rather wide of the Scheme.
I want to support the idea of my hon. Friend for this institute. The Government have said on a number of occasions that they cannot enact laws against discrimination in this country, or ratify the Convention of the International Labour Organisation, and that it is impossible for them to introduce legislation against incitement to racial tension. But it should be possible for them to co-ordinate the activities of organisations which already exist, to canalise the efforts being made, and to codify all the information available, and I hope that in that task they will get the help of people outside, the Church—including my own religious faith—and all those interested in human behaviour in people living together.
Mr. Parkin: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

WATER UNDERTAKINGS, EAST DEVON (REGROUPING)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Colonel J. H. Harrison.]
10.47 p.m.
Mr. Robert Mathew: I am most grateful for the opportunity of raising the question of a proposed regrouping of water undertakings in East Devon, a matter which is causing a number of water undertakers, and many thousands of ratepayers in my constituency, a great deal of anxiety.
The first approaches in this matter were made by my right hon. Friend over two years ago, and there has been a long series of negotiations with the water undertakers concerned and much correspondence since then. But at the end of those two years there is as much uncertainty and apprehension on the part of the ratepayers in this area as there was at the beginning. It appears that nothing has been decided, but certain facts have emerged which, in my view, are not calculated to allay the fears of the ratepayers, who expect a very steep rise in the cost of water.
My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will recall that we had a debate in the House on the matter of water supplies, especially in rural areas, in May, 1957. In the course of our discussions on that occasion I pleaded that if it were decided that the regrouping was necessary in this very rural part of Devon a big stick should not be used by the Ministry and threats of compulsion should not be introduced, at any rate during the early stages of negotiation. I must now say that the widespread disquiet which then existed has been amply justified by events.
Does not my hon. Friend think that some of the soundings, contacts and negotiations which have taken place have rather unnecessarily alienated some of the water undertakers who, in the early stages, although not liking the idea of regrouping, were in a reasonable frame of mind, and quite prepared to consider and even acquiesce in proposals provided that they were both practical and certain? The negotiations

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have been dogged by uncertainty which, unfortunately, has resulted in a great deal of suspicion which may or may not have been justified. There have been times when I felt that the Minister, in trying to carry out his duty under the Act, has had the misfortune to lose even those friends which he possessed at the start.
The independent undertakings owned by the Exmouth, Budleigh Salterton and Sidmouth Urban District Councils have had an axe hanging over them for about two years and I understand that determination to resist regrouping by all possible legal means is stronger today than ever. I need not remind my hon. Friend of the various petitions, demonstrations, and so on, which have been successfully organised to give expression to local feeling on this matter. But the major factor in all this has been the grave uncertainty about what is to happen.
Nothing has happened since June, 1958, when the Devon County Council decided to review the financial arrangements for the water supplies in the county. I do not know when the County Council will come to a final decision on the Report it has now received. I understand there is some hope of a definite decision about finances and the shape of the possible regrouping after a meeting which I believe has been arranged to take place next September. I should be grateful if my hon. Friend would throw some light on that matter, so as to relieve the minds of members of the public and the water undertakers.
My hon. Friend will know that the Exmouth Urban District Council, in particular, thinks that, should a regrouping be forced on it, the County Borough of Exeter should be included. The Minister's own Commission, which produced the Vale Report, recommended that Exeter should be included. To a layman, without knowledge of the technicalities of such matters, the inclusion of a large undertaking such as Exeter, or Plymouth, in any new arrangement would seem both practically and financially desirable. I understand, however, that the East Devon Water Board which would form the nucleus, or, at any rate, an important part of any regrouping, is not wholly favourable to
1680
the suggestion. Even though he may not be able to give a precise view tonight, perhaps my hon. Friend would indicate that this proposition will be seriously entertained by the Minister.
In the debate to which I have referred I asked my hon. Friend a number of questions, but he was unable at that time to reply to most of them. I wish again to draw his attention to the case of the Exmouth undertaking. Here is a thoroughly efficient undertaking which supplies abundant water much more cheaply than would be the case in any regrouping. Up to 1939, the total capital outlay by the Exmouth Council on its water undertaking was equal, at today's valuation, to £500,000. A further £250,000 has been spent since that date. The whole of that capital has been financed without any grant from outside bodies. The same applies to the annual working of that undertaking.
The view taken by the Exmouth Council is that the ratepayers would receive no compensation for £750,000 worth of assets, and they would, of course, have to pay very much higher water charges. From this point of view, the reorganisation merely involves subsidising, perhaps, more rural or backward neighbours—using the term "backward", of course, in the context of water supplies. The case for the implementation of the 1945 Water Act has never been put clearly by the Ministry as regards Exmouth. I have figures to show that, in the case of Budleigh Salterton and Sidmouth, there is no doubt that the charge on the ratepayers will be substantially increased if they are brought into any regrouping.
If the Minister's argument especially as regards Exmouth is that it is too small an undertaking to exist independently, will he tell the House what size an undertaking must have if it is to cease to be small? In Exmouth, there is an efficient undertaking, pumping over 1½ million gallons a day, and I understand that it could pump up to 2 million gallons a day. In what respect is it, in its present condition, either inefficient or not economic?
To sum up, I wish to draw my hon. Friend's attention to the widespread apprehension and uncertainty about this matter in the whole area. I should be

1681
grateful if he could say when the present suspension of negotiation is likely to end, and what are now the intentions as regards the type and shape of regrouping in the area. Will the Minister consider including Exeter so as to put the proposed new water board on a favourable financial footing? Lastly, I ask my hon. Friend to explain to those councils in my constituency which are running efficient and economic water undertakings why their assets have to be taken from them, and in what way it is in their interests and the interests of the ratepayers in those urban districts that they should be supplied by a new, larger but more expensive water undertaking.
10.58 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. J. R. Bevins): My hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Mr. Mathew) has asked several questions, which I shall try to answer in the ten minutes or so which remain to me.
The difficulties of regrouping water undertakings in areas which are partly rural and partly urban are formidable in all parts of the country, and I readily acknowledge that, in East Devon, these difficulties have developed in a rather acute form during the last two or three years. Almost invariably of course, there is a conflict between the urban and the rural authorities about the sharing of expenditure on water supply schemes and, also, the heavy financial cost which is involved in the provision of supplies to meet modern needs. That is a problem, however the cost happens to be shared between different authorities. In the particular case of East Devon, there is, as my hon. Friend knows, the reluctance, also, of at least one important authority to participate in regrouping unless the City of Exeter joins in.
I say at once that it is the view of my right hon. Friend—it has been his view for quite a long time—that we ought to work for a single unit in East Devon. My right hon. Friend has no intention whatever of going back on that view. He has, therefore, sought to persuade the various water undertakers to settle their differences, which undoubtedly exist, and to agree, in principle at any rate, to the formation of a new water board for the East Devon area, in the hope that, once that has
1682
been brought about, the authorities themselves will work out the financial and other details and proceed to write them into an agreed draft order. It has always been our hope that this regrouping would take place as a single operation.
Towards the middle of last year, it seemed that a fairly large measure of agreement—I do not put it any higher than that—had been reached. I think that there was also hope that the terms of the draft Order might be settled quite soon. As my hon. Friend knows, however, regrouping, not only in East Devon but throughout the whole of the County of Devon, is marking time due to the decision of the county council to examine the financial arrangements for water supply in the county as a whole.
From what my right hon. Friend and I have seen, the attitude of the Devon County Council towards problems involving water in Devon has always been a liberal one. Although it is not my business tonight to go into the highly complicated business of the financial relationships between the county and the various water undertakings—a temptation which is easy to resist because it is so complicated—I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Honiton knows that no regrouping Order which provides for the representation of the county can go ahead unless the county agrees to the financial arrangements.
So far, it is true that the County Council has come to no decision. Naturally, we regret this delay, but we recognise that these questions of the distribution of the financial burden as between the County Council, the water undertakers and the consumers must be examined before a formula can be worked out which would be regarded as fair by all the parties concerned. Once the City Council has finished its study and made known its views, we certainly hope that regrouping will go ahead. Meanwhile, my right hon. Friend has certainly not modified his view that there should be one single unit of water administration for East Devon.
My hon. Friend asked about what lies in the months ahead. My information is that the County Council was to have considered the situation in the middle of July and to decide its future course of action on finance and regrouping

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generally. I believe, however, that the County Council has postponed its decision until a special meeting which has been called for some time in September, by which time it will have also certain supplementary financial information. I should have thought, therefore, that there was a sporting chance that we shall be making at least some progress by September.
With regard to the vexed question-as, indeed, it is—of the inclusion or otherwise of Exeter, my right hon. Friend has made it known that he does not look upon Exeter's inclusion as essential for the effective organisation of water supplies in East Devon, although I concede to my hon. Friend that the inclusion of Exeter was recommended in the 1954 water survey. It is true that if Exeter were to come in, it would be financially advantageous to the other authorities and I have no doubt that the County Council is not excluding this consideration from the review which is at present under way.
We recognise that some of the undertakers in East Devon look upon themselves as self-sufficient and they are not convinced that they should link up with neighbouring undertakers, particularly where amalgamation would, as they think—possibly, rightly—involve them and their ratepayers in additional financial burdens. I understand that view and I have some sympathy with it, without going to the length of accepting it, but I think that it ignores the long-term benefits which are likely to accrue over the whole of the area, and not merely part of the area, if the various supplies are integrated and managed as one with expert technical staff.
Having said that, however, it would be disingenuous on my part if I were to pretend that the grouping of rural and urban areas and the consequent spread of cost means no cost increase at all in the urban areas. Very often it does.
1684
This can be and often is cushioned during the first few years by differential financial provisions. That is not something peculiar to East Devon. It arises in many parts of the country. Indeed, it is inherent in many of the amalgamations. Taking the country as a whole, it has been fairly willingly accepted.
I know that my hon. Friend is interested, perfectly rightly so, in the position of Exmouth. I would say that never at any time have either my right hon. Friend or myself or, so far as I know, any of our advisers criticised the record of the Ex-mouth undertaking. It is a good undertaking, although it is a small undertaking. But I do say that we have to look ahead, and have to consider what is desirable in the interests of public water supply for the wider area over a long period of time.
My hon. Friend also referred to the possibility—indeed, to rather more than the possibility—of the use of compulsion in this area. To be quite fair, I do not think that he would go so far as to say that compulsion has been employed. It certainly has not in the technical sense of the term, and we hope that, once the City Council has come to its conclusions, discussion for voluntary regrouping will be resumed by the various authorities right away. That is what we hope will happen. If we can avoid it, we do not want to interfere or to give the impression of using the big stick.
My right hon. Friend who, as my hon. Friend knows, has recently been in Devon, is quite convinced that, given good will and a little give and take, it should be possible to work out a scheme which will be acceptable all round, and will succeed in providing all parts of East Devon with adequate water supplies, both now and in the future.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at eight minutes past Eleven o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester
The Earl of Carrick (L. Butler of Mount Juliet)—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION BILL
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION BILL
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

HUMBER BRIDGE BILL
3.7 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. I think a few words are called for explaining to your Lordships the purport of this Motion. It is divided into three parts. The first deals with the height of the fences running along the sides of the bridge. Standing Order No. 131 requires that the fences alongside all bridges built under an Act of Parliament shall be not less than 4 feet high. It is now generally considered that this figure is out of date, and I understand that it was made in the days of horses. The Minister of Transport, who is naturally very much concerned with this matter, entirely agrees, I understand, that this figure is excessive. I should also like to mention that the measurements proposed for the Humber Bridge are the same as those now being used for the Forth Road Bridge, and those measurements were authorised as long ago as 1946; namely, 3 feet 6 inches high for the fences. I am informed that if the fence is 4 feet high, a motorist just cannot see out of his car anything at all. I am also informed that for aesthetic and aero-dynamic reasons, not to mention financial reasons,
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it is advantageous to have a lower figure of 3 feet 6 inches for the roadways and 3 feet 9 inches for the footways.
I have placed in the Prince's Chamber a section model of this bridge, together with a photograph, and from those your Lordships will see that in this case there is a central footway between the two roadways. This central footway is entirely separated from the roadways, and there is a space between the footway and the roadways on either side, so that the fences of the roadways do not coincide with the fences of the footway, and thereby access from one to the other is prevented. The House may be interested to know that I am informed that the span of this bridge, which is 4,536 feet in length, will be the longest single span of any bridge in the world. I would also mention that on Monday next the House will be asked to approve an alteration in this particular Standing Order, so that this point is not likely to arise in the future, if the alteration is agreed to; and the new words will be, if your Lordships agree to them, that there must be "a good and sufficient fence," and no measurement will be mentioned at all.
The second part of this Motion refers to another Standing Order, No. 147, which requires that three days before the Third Reading of a Private Bill the Bill must be deposited with Government Departments. Shortly, the position is that unless this Standing Order is dispensed with to-day this Bill will not be able to receive the Royal Assent before the Recess, because Amendments to that Bill have been made by this House and they require the agreement of the House of Commons. Your Lordships may be glad to know that the Bill was in fact deposited two days ago, so that the difference between what was actually done and the Standing Order is only in fact one day. I have heard of no objection to this proposal, and I would therefore ask the House to agree with it so that this Bill can become law at an early date. The third part of the Motion is that this Bill be now read a third time; and, accordingly, I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Unopposed Bill Committee on the Humber Bridge Bill that, notwithstanding Standing Order No. 131, the fences of the bridge authorised by the Bill should be three feet nine inches high on either side

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of that part of the bridge reserved for pedestrians and three feet six inches high on either side of the carriageway for motor traffic: That Standing Order No. 147 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bill: and that the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Merthyr.)
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, for that explanation; I wanted to know what the explanation was. There are two points that occur to me. First, so far as I can gather there is no opposition to this proposal, and I have consulted my colleagues who agree with that: we have no objection as a technical proposal. The other point of importance is the question of the suspension of the Standing Order. In the circumstances, no one wishes to oppose that suspension for this purpose to-day, but I hope that something can be devised, and I hope the noble Earl the Leader of the House will agree, so that such Bills as are in this position can be covered by formal Resolution of the House without our having to suspend a Standing Order. I hope that can be agreed.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, I can only say that both points which have been made by the noble Viscount will be given careful attention. I am not quite sure what the answer to the second of them is, but I undertake to examine the question.
On Question, Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

SHELL-MEX AND B.P. (LONDON AIRPORT PIPELINE) BILL
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. Your Lordships will observe that this Motion is identical with the second part of my Motion on the Humber Bridge Bill, and the explanation for the necessity of it is precisely the same. I beg to move that the Motion be agreed to.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 147 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bill;
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and that the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Merthyr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

OUTER SEVEN AGREEMENT AND PAPER INDUSTRY
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government: (1) whether, in the negotiations anent the proposed "Outer Seven" Agreement they will have regard to the possibility, under the Agreement if concluded, of heavy, competitively low priced, imports of finished paper from Sweden and to the consequent injurious effects which such imports would impose on the paper-making industry in the south of Scotland; and (2) whether in the aforesaid negotiations, they have proposals in mind to avoid such a possibility.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, I understand that my noble friend the Lord President will be making a statement later this afternoon about the outcome of the Ministerial discussions in Stockholm on the subject of a European Free Trade Association. Representations have been made to my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, that the formation of a free trade association of these countries might have adverse effects on the paper industry in Scotland, as well as in the rest of the United Kingdom. Similar representations have been made to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. These representations have been taken fully into account, together with the views of other industries.
The negotiations for the drafting of a Convention for a free trade association of the seven countries will be taking place shortly. In those negotiations Her Majesty's Government will have fully in mind the desirability that appropriate rules for fair competition should be included in the Convention.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Earl for his Answer.

>NUCLEAR EXPLOSION IN THE SAHARA
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have made representations to the Government of France, as requested by the Nigerian authorities, against the intended nuclear explosion in the Sahara Desert.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, following the request of the Nigerian Prime Minister, we transmitted to the French Government the views expressed in the Nigerian House of Representatives. Although the French Government has made no comment on the views expressed in the Nigerian debate, on June 22 the French Minister of War, M. Guillaumat, stated publicly that due notice of their tests will be given to all countries bordering on the Sahara. Moreover, on May 4 in a written answer in the French National Assembly, the French Prime Minister, M. Debré said that all necessary precautions would be taken to ensure that there would be no damage to health.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am grateful to the Government for transmitting the request of the Nigerian Federal Government; but in view of the widespread alarm and feeling that there is in Nigeria on this question, will not the Government continue to press the French Government to abandon the tests?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I think I should remind your Lordships of the statement which was made in another place by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. think it would be as well if I quote his words [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 608 (No. 143), col. 1563]:
"I think that our purpose should be first to get agreement for the stopping of tests between the three great countries which have been carrying on tests in the hydrogen field. After that, I think that our purpose should be to try to get other countries to accede, but I do not consider that at this time an approach on the lines suggested"—
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that is, as has been suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore—
"would lead to a suspension of the proposed French test in the atomic field."
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, is it a fact that this is the first time that the nuclear weapon has appeared in Africa?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, so far as I am aware, yes.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, do not the noble Marquess and the Government think it is a very serious thing, when you have Ghana, Liberia and Nigeria all protesting against this test, that we are not able to do something to save Africa from this curse?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I think that all your Lordships on every side of the House are aware that anything to do with atomic tests is a very serious thing.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: But that really is no answer. Does the Sandys doctrine apply to Africa? Supposing we are in difficulty with our conventional arms, are we then, according to the Sandys doctrine, to take the initiative in using the nuclear weapon?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I really must tell the noble Viscount that that does not refer to the Question.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, even at this late date, it is not possible for the Government, in view of their very heavy responsibility in Africa, to consider again the serious effect that this will have, and whether they will not make renewed representations to try to prevent this from happening?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I have already given the answer of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, and that is as far as I can go.
EARL ATTLEE: My Lords, is it suggested that the setting off of one of these things by a Power other than the three great ones is more, or less, dangerous? It seems to imply it is all right if it is done by a small Power as compared with a large Power.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, I think it is quite useless to protest to the French Government, but may I ask the noble Marquess whether he has any idea when this test is likely to take place? I have a feeling that the sooner we get it over the better.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Does the noble Marquess know that these tests are proposed at Hammada, 700 miles from the borders of Nigeria and Ghana? I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, but does he mean to say that when we reach agreement in Geneva there is the least chance of persuading General, de Gaulle not to arm French Africa with nuclear weapons?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I do not think the noble Viscount can expect me to add anything further to the answer I have given by the Prime Minister.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, are the Government asking the French Government exactly what precautions are being taken so that they can give this assurance of no injury to health? Have the Government taken the precaution of finding out what the French are doing to protect health? We all have a feeling that being in close proximity to these tests is bound to be injurious.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I am always at the service of your Lordships' House, but I am not in a position to give detailed facts. If I am able to obtain them I will see that the noble Viscount receives them.

GUENTER PODOLA'S INJURIES
3.23 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government if they will institute an inquiry into the circumstances under which Guenter Fritz Podola, who was apparently uninjured when arrested on July 16, sustained such injuries in custody, that, when he appeared at West London Court on July 20, his face was severely contused with the cheek blackened and with deep blue
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patches tinged with red for two inches below the eye, and his general condition such that he had to be held up when seated, and, when walking, supported by two officers, dragged his feet slowly.]
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, on a point of Order, I wish to ask my noble friend the Leader of the House whether, in view of the Question put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, we are all aware that the matter is sub judice and therefore improper to put it to your Lordships' House?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, while I may have an opinion on this matter I would rather the House heard the view of the Lord Chancellor.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, the position, as I see it, is as follows. The Home Secretary has denied categorically that Podola was beaten up in the police station. It follows that such injuries as he may have suffered were sustained at the time of his arrest, about the circumstances of which evidence is likely to be given in court. When a man is charged with a serious offence like murder it is of particular importance that no statement or comment should be made about any matters which might possibly be at issue at the trial; and this case is now before the courts. That has always been the custom of your Lordships' House, and I hope that we shall abide by it now. For me to say any more than has been said by my right honourable friend in another place would be entirely improper, and I do not propose to add anything to what he has said.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, my sole concern in raising this question was what was, in my view, the interests of British justice, and to try to clear up a matter of serious public concern. May I submit to the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack that there is nothing whatever in the content of my Question to connect it with a crime which has shocked the whole nation—nothing whatever. If this man has been assaulted no one has been charged with the assault, and I cannot therefore see how it can be sub judice. Further, as the noble and learned Viscount said, the Home Secretary has declared that the man was not beaten

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up in the police station; therefore the very serious injuries, from which he was not suffering when he was arrested, judging from photographs, must have been inflicted in the meantime. If they were not inflicted by third parties they must have been either self-inflicted or as a result of accident. Would it not be in the interests of justice and help allay public concern if a declaration to that effect were made?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I said, I think quite clearly, but I want to make it absolutely clear (if the noble Lord wishes to check the points he will find it at the top of column 877 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of the proceedings of another place for Monday, July 20, and as it was a Ministerial statement I can refer to it), that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary denied categorically that Podola was beaten up in the police station. As I said, it follows that such injuries as he may have suffered were sustained at the time of his arrest. Now what happened at the time of his arrest, and the circumstances of his arrest, are matters on which evidence is likely to be given in court; and it is because evidence is likely to be given in court, and it is a matter which is going to be dealt with in a court of law, that I said it would be most improper for this House to discuss it.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD SILKIN: While, of course, I accept the noble and learned Viscount's ruling, supposing Podola maintains that he was beaten up at the police station, what is his remedy? There is a dispute. He obviously cannot raise it at his trial: should there not be some opportunity for him to raise it somehow some time?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am very anxious not to be drawn by debating points from the position which I am sure is the right one.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have no doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, knows from his experience, as it is the result of my own, that the circumstances of arrest are very likely to be raised at the trial. That is the first matter; and to discuss hypotheses as to
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what might be done in the future, on certain views being taken of the evidence, would be to fall into exactly the danger which I very much wish your Lordships to avoid.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I was not aware, of course, before I came into the House, that this point would be raised, although I express thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, for telling me in the Chamber: but I was armed with the extract from Hansard which the noble and learned Viscount has mentioned. He will be aware that Mr. Speaker referred to this as a borderline case on the question of being sub judice or not. I would repeat that my sole purpose was, as I thought, in the interests of justice, because it would seem that if there was any dubiety on this point no future credence could be placed on any alleged statement by this man as it might be made under duress or threat.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I hope that no inference of any kind will be drawn, and that the trial will be allowed to go on quite normally. I have been told—though I have not verified it from Mr. Speaker—that MR. Speaker has now refused any further questions in the matter. I heard this only just before coming into the House; my noble friend Lord Teviot raised this point ten minutes before sitting, and I have not been able to verify it. It is not, of course, in any way binding on your Lordships' House, but on the general comity between the two Houses it is a matter we treat with great respect.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I would say that my colleagues as a whole seek nothing in this matter but the obtaining of justice, first of all, in the case of the horrible murder which was committed. Secondly, it would be a part of British justice that, if afterwards it transpired that there was evidence that there was something done by the police that was wrong, there would be ample opportunity to pursue it; and I am quite sure that neither House of Parliament would want such a course to be blocked. If something has been done which is wrong, while we cannot move now while the matter is sub judice, we shall be free to pursue it afterwards.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
3.31 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I have to inform the House that there will be a Statement, as well as the one by the Lord President, by my noble friend Lord Perth.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, the explanation of these two Motions in my name on the Order Paper is, very shortly, that Business is becoming congested, and in order to allow another place to consider certain matters concerning Africa, which will be coming forward in the next few days, my noble friend Lord Swinton has kindly agreed to move his Motion on the Free Trade Area to Tuesday, so as to leave Wednesday free to debate the Central African matter. These two Motions really relate to those arrangements. The noble Lord, Lord Winster, has kindly postponed his Motion until late on Tuesday, so as to enable Lord Swinton's Motion to come first. I beg to move.
Moved, That on Tuesday next, Starred Questions be not taken earlier than half-past Two o'clock.
That leave be given to advance the Motion standing in the name of the Earl of Swinton from Wednesday next to Tuesday next.—(The Earl of Home.)
On Question, Motions agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

FACTORIES BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
FATAL ACCIDENTS BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
LANDLORD AND TENANT (FURNITURE AND FITTINGS) BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
OBSCENE PUBLICATIONS BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.

THE HIGHWAY CODE
3.34 p.m.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD THE EARL OF GOSFORD rose to move, That this House takes note of the Paper entitled The Highway Code, a copy of which was laid before the House on June 30 last, and approves the revised Highway Code contained in pages 3 to 25 inclusive thereof. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move that this House take note of the Paper entitled The Highway Code and approves the revised Code contained in pages 3–25. Section 45 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, provides that the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation shall issue a Code of Directions for the guidance of persons using the roads and also empowers him to amend, revoke and alter such Code.
There are a number of reasons why a new Highway Code has been prepared at the present time. The most important of these is the need to publish, as an intrinsic part of the Code, a set of rules to govern traffic movement on the new motorways. Also experience has shown that certain rules in the present Code are in need of amendment or should be deleted altogether and there are also new rules which it is thought should be brought into the Code. Finally, some amendment was necessary to the illustrations in the Signs and Signals Section.
As with previous editions of the Code, the greatest care has been taken in preparing the new edition. Some seventy interested bodies and organisations have been consulted and full note taken of their comments and suggestions. Furthermore, every effort has again been made to produce a Highway Code which will be readily acknowledged as being a distinct improvement on its predecessor. The use of colour has been further extended and sketches illustrating a number of the rules have been included to make the booklet more useful and more attractive. They also give it a contemporary appearance and will, it is hoped, stir the curiosity of the reader and lead him to study its contents more thoroughly.
The new Code is made up of 94 rules, which include 25 in the Motorway Section, compared with 71 in the existing Code. The structure of the Code is the same as before, with the Code first, the signals in the middle and the law at the

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end. There are few major changes in the main body of the Code, but perhaps I should mention two of them. The first is the dropping of the signal "I am ready to be overtaken" and the second is the addition of the rule that "turning traffic at road junctions must give way to pedestrians". The main objection to the rule concerning the signal "I am ready to be overtaken" is that it advises drivers to make a signal which, although not required for any manœuvre they themselves intend to make, may on the other hand involve them in legal difficulties arising out of the action of other drivers. Regarding the second point, the rule about "turning traffic giving way to pedestrians" follows practice in other countries. It is an obviously sensible rule and should promote the general safety of pedestrians. Part IV of the new Code, which is the new part dealing with motorway driving, is based on the pamphlet issued last Autumn before the opening of the Preston By-pass. One or two minor changes have been made but experience so far has shown that the original rules were basically sound.
Regarding the distribution of the Code, it is hoped that publication will take place in the late Autumn, in time for copies to be available to the public before the opening of the first sections of the London-Birmingham Motorway. It is not proposed on this occasion to make a large-scale free distribution, either to the general public (the heavy cost involved in this would be difficult to justify) or to all holders of driving licences. Many of these licences have now been renewed for three years and these drivers would therefore have to wait a long time before receiving a copy of the Code with their next renewal. It is, however proposed in accordance with present practice to issue a copy of the Code free to first applicants for provisional licences and also to visitors from overseas. This will consume about 1 million copies a year. For the general public the purchase price of the Code will be 6d. per copy, which will not in fact fully cover the production and selling costs.
My Lords, in conclusion I would ask all road users to pay the utmost attention to the Code. It is written in simple language; much of it is straight common sense and a proper observance of its rules would clearly do much to reduce the
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tragic toll of road accidents. I hope that your Lordships will now give it your approval.
Moved, That this House takes note of the Paper entitled The Highway Code, a copy of which was laid before the House on the 30th of June last, and approves the revised Highway Code contained in pages 3 to 25 inclusive thereof.—(The Earl of Gosford.)
3.38 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, in a short space of two months your Lordships are asked once again to spare some of your time to give consideration to a social problem which has increased in those two months since your Lordships last debated it. The road toll goes on. We are asked this afternoon to give approval to this new edition after five years of The Highway Code. Let me put the noble Earl's mind at rest: he will receive no opposition to that. As a piece of exhortation it is excellent; it is the best that has been produced. But I am wondering whether the noble Earl would not agree with me when I say that exhortation in some aspects must take second place to positive action.
There are signs that the public conscience is being disturbed. It is indicative of that that throughout the whole of this week the programme broadcast by the B.B.C. "Lift Up Your Hearts", to which I expect a number of your Lordships listen every morning, has been devoted to this question of the moral responsibility upon every citizen of this country to stem the toll of road accidents. This morning I was particularly impressed with a very realistic appeal made by a Member of your Lordships' House, Lord Brentford, acting in his capacity as the Chairman of the Automobile Association. And so I beg your Lordships seriously to look at this Highway Code, when we repeat, time after time, the same words.
As the noble Earl says, it has ninety-four exhortations. As time goes on, the exhortations will grow in number, and the road toll will grow at the same time. Will your Lordships just look for a minute at Part I, which deals with "The road user on foot." Now although the vast majority of accidents take place in the built-up areas of our towns and cities, and the greatest single cause of accidents with pedestrians is stepping off the kerbs

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in traffic-congested areas, stepping off kerbs when their sight is obstructed by standing vehicles—not motor cars parked for a minute or two, but tradesmen's vans and lorries that stand there by the hour—and although that has been going on now for 25 years, we give no more thought to it than exhorting pedestrians to do the same old things.
Whatever criticisms are made by some people of the Minister of Transport, good or bad, let us pay tribute to him. He does at least try to do something. He has now, only to-day, pronounced that he is going to have a clear way on our trunk roads. If only he would have clearways upon the main streets of our cities and towns, and not allow the highway to be congested by these standing vehicles, the first, part of this Highway Code would not be necessary. There would be no standing vehicles from behind or in front of which pedestrians blindly step into the road. I ask the noble Earl who speaks on behalf of the Minister of Transport whether the time has not come when, in our thickly trafficked cities, the pedestrians should not be brought under some control; whether or not they should not have to obey traffic lights in the interests of their own safety. I believe pedestrian crossings are now out of date. They certainly are not very effective. I believe that pedestrian traffic lights at some of our junctions are the only means of saving pedestrians from committing many of these errors.
The noble Earl has said that one of the alterations in this new Code is that the turning traffic at a road junction should give way to the pedestrian. Has he thought of the confusion that that will bring about when the traffic filter arrow gives the traffic the right to turn? My Lords, these are some of the things which would all be done away with if, at every intersection and at every road junction in this country which is thickly trafficked, both pedestrian and vehicular, we had the all-red phase and the clear sign for the pedestrian to cross or for the pedestrian to stop. That is one thing we should do.
Then, Rules 20 and 21 in this Highway Code give instructions to the vehicular traffic upon the new white line—which, my Lords, I consider is a positive danger upon most of our narrow, two-carriage-
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way roads. Have your Lordships tried to work it out? There is a white line and a broken line; the broken line is on your right, so you have an encouragement to overtake. Now in the case of about 90 per cent. of those I have checked, the length of the permission to overtake runs for only twenty yards. If you are trying to pass a vehicle at 40 m.p.h., there is no motor car built to-day which, on the roads of this country, has the power of acceleration to pass another vehicle within the limits of the permissible broken line. And what do you find? You are halfway across on the wrong side, and are suddenly faced with a dual white prohibition.
Of course, theoretically the new white line is a good thing. It was adopted on the Continent, and is a very good thing for our broad, new, main roads. But on our dual-carriage roads, which are about as straight as a dog's hind leg, it is an incentive to accident. I am of the opinion that, on these roads, there is only one phase of this new instruction that will add to safety, and that is the double-line prohibition to overtake. The rest is, in my humble opinion, an incentive to accidents.
My Lords, there are just one or two other comments that I should like to make. If I had the opportunity to-day, with my experience, gained from the time I spent at the Ministry of Transport and in the time since, I would cut this Highway Code by half, and would emphasise the essential points more. In two different places in this Highway Code there is an exhortation to leave enough space in front so that a vehicle can pass by you in safety. That is all it says. Those of us who do a lot of motoring know that one of the greatest causes of accidents to-day is the build-up of heavy commercial vehicles which get into line astern, for hundreds of yards in some cases. May I give your Lordships a graphic illustration? I was motoring upon the A.34 the other day, and I was the fifteenth car behind seven heavy vehicles. It was impossible for any one of those cars to pass because all those seven vehicles were radiator to tail. It was ten miles before one car could get in front of that queue of commercial vehicles; and at the time it did that I looked round and there were ten more cars behind. Now if only this Code

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would graphically lay down an injunction that heavy commercial vehicles should never travel at less distance than 30 yards behind each other, there would not be the congestion on the roads of this country that there is.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, the noble Lord will, I hope, agree with me that, as a general rule, the commercial heavy lorry driver is rather better than the ordinary motorist as regards his driving.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: That has been said so often that we all believe it is true. In fact, it is not. It was true years ago: but, you see, the motor car is a quicker vehicle. The front vehicle of this queue of commercial vehicles could not, by the nature of its load, travel more than 30 m.p.h. It is no good saying that the commercial vehicle driver is a more considerate driver than the motor car driver. By and large, that to-day is not true. It is the heavy vehicle, big and cumbersome, on the narrow two-traffic-way road that does not exceed twenty to twenty-two feet in width for many miles, that sets the pace for all the traffic on the road for miles behind. That is one of the points to which I should like to draw attention.
There is one other matter which I think is of substance. We have in the Code this remarkable direction in Rule 34 in the section on "Overtaking". It says:
"Overtake on the right."
That, of course, is the recognised rule of the road.
"This rule does not necessarily apply in the following circumstances:
(ii) In slow moving congested traffic when vehicles in the lane on your right are moving more slowly than you are."
I have never known an exhortation with more danger in it than that. In our heavily-trafficked towns we are all brought down to a speed which is half the pace of the cyclist. We are passed on the wrong side by cyclists and motor cyclists, who build up at the traffic lights and are a source of constant danger. In another part of the rules there is the injunction to pass always on the right. But there is the case of the four-line road with dual carriageway where I should have thought that passing on the left was permissible.
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I do not think that these exhortations will make much impression upon our problem. During the recent debate on road accidents in your Lordships' House I made some stern strictures on the way magistrates interpret the law and use their undoubted power of deterrence. The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, who spoke on behalf of the Government, said that he thought we could rest assured that the Home Office return of court sentences in 1958 would show a distinct improvement on the figures I quoted for 1957. I have these figures here and, by and large, they are worse. The deterrents are less. The average fine in cases of speeding, careless driving and dangerous driving has gone up 2s., and in the greatest deterrent of all, the suspension of licence, the number has gone down. In face of that, how can we expect the exhortations we have in The Highway Code to make any great impact upon our problem?
In my final word I should like to address myself, with your Lordships' permission, to the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack and who, on behalf of the Government, said that he viewed this problem of road accidents with such concern that unless something was done of a positive nature by the courts to reduce accidents, they would have to have second thoughts. I should like to ask him whether he does not think that that time has now arrived.

EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION
3.54 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I read a Statement which my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is now making in another place. The Statement, which I will read in my right honourable friend's own words, is as follows.
"I will now make a statement about the Stockholm discussions.
"The Paymaster General and I attended a meeting at Stockholm on July 20 and 21, to which, together with Austrian, Danish, Norwegian, Portuguese and Swiss Ministers, we had been invited by the Swedish Government. As the House knows, this meeting was called to consider

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whether these seven countries should set up a free trade association among themselves. The object of such an association would be to create a single market of nearly 90 million people by abolishing tariffs and other barriers to trade. Our partners in this group enjoy a high standard of living. They import over £3,000 million a year. Freedom of trade within this group must help us all to increase our production, raise our standard of living and maintain full employment.
"We decided unanimously at the Stockholm meeting to recommend to our Governments that such an association should be created. A Convention is to be drafted, and we hope that this will be ready for submission to Governments by the end of October. We aim to establish the new association in time for the first tariff reduction to take place on July 1, 1960.
"The Draft Plan for a European Free Trade Association which we had before us was made public in Stockholm last night and, for the convenience of honourable Members, I am arranging for this, together with the agreed statement with which we concluded our meeting, to be published as a White Paper as soon as printing can be completed. I hope this can be done by next Monday afternoon.
"It was agreed that there should be a special agreement on agriculture, setting out the agreed objectives on agriculture and food policy, providing for consultation where appropriate, and designed to facilitate expansion of trade between members, having regard to the need to achieve a sufficient degree of reciprocity between them This objective is satisfied in the case of the United Kingdom by the terms of the bilateral agreement which we have made with Denmark.
"There will be further discussions on fish and fish products. The Draft Plan sets out in detail the proposals made by the Norwegian Government and the position taken by other Delegations to them. The United Kingdom made clear that it could not contemplate removing the tariff on fresh or frozen fish. But we said that if there were an agreement on fish generally satisfactory to us, we would be
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prepared to treat preserved and processed fish—broadly, canned fish and fish meal—as industrial products.
"The purposes of Her Majesty's Government in taking part in this decision to set up a European Free Trade Association were broadly two. In the first place, these arrangements will be advantageous in their own right to the United Kingdom and to all the other members. The Ministers meeting at Stockholm were unanimous in their conviction on this.
"Secondly, we, and all the other Governments, believe that this is the best way to advance towards a single European market, free of tariffs and other restrictions.
"We have repeatedly indicated the importance we all attach to a Europe-wide agreement for freer trade. The detailed arrangements—as will be seen when the White Paper is published—have been shaped to facilitate subsequent negotiations with our partners in O.E.E.C, both the members of the European Economic Community and those who are members neither of the Community nor of the new Association. We have made arrangements for the question of relations with other members of O.E.E.C. to be kept under continuous review. We have each of us indicated our desire to accredit representatives to the Community.
"On many occasions this House has indicated the widespread support there is for trading and economic arrangements which will embrace the Six and all other members of O.E.E.C. I can assure the House that all the Governments with whom we have been negotiating at Stockholm hold this view no less strongly.
"I am confident that this agreement at Stockholm this week will prove to be a historic step forward in European economic co-operation, both in its immediate purposes and in the prospects it opens for the future."
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I am obliged to the Lord President for making the statement he has just made. We shall await with great interest the White Paper containing the Draft Plan. At present, of

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course, it is not possible to go into detail because we do not know the conditions which will operate in particular industries, one of which has been under question this afternoon in your Lordships' House and the other of which is to be debated next week.
Whether the steps mentioned in this statement will be sufficient to protect British agriculture, I do not know, but no doubt steps will be taken to see that the White Paper includes the full conditions of that agreement and any special conditions which are to be applied to particular industries, such as the paper industry, that was under discussion at Question Time this afternoon. If we could know that, and if we could also get the convenience of having, if possible, a saving of the time of your Lordships by printing in the White Paper the present comparative figures of imports and exports of all the seven countries concerned, that would be a great help in coming to a judgment on the general matter. Apart from all that, I feel that all sections of British economy and political interests will be in general favour of doing all we can to improve matters in the exchange of trade. But we need to be satisfied upon these details, and the best way is to reserve that for debate on the White Paper when the draft plan is included in it.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, as I had a question down on this matter this afternoon perhaps I may say this—and in saying it I do not involve any of my noble friends sitting around me. So far as one is able to judge from the statement, this is not free trade, at any rate to my way of thinking. It is lop-sided free trade: we sacrifice some industries on the altar for the benefit of other industries. That is particularly so, as far as I can see, in relation to the paper industry, in reference to which I asked a Question to-day. It is not possible to discuss it now, but I hope, as the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition said he hopes, that the arrangements to be made in regard to the agricultural industry will be included in the White Paper. If that is so, I hope that any arrangements which are going to ease the difficult position which will assuredly be created in the paper trade in Scotland will also be illuminated in the White Paper.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords who have intervened. I think I should say to the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, that I do not think it is fair to say that this is in any sense other than free trade or that it is in any sense "lop-sided." A substantial majority of representative associations of British industries support the proposed free trade association of the Seven, either because it will bring them direct benefits or because they hope it will lead to wider European arrangements. As the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, observed, it would be wrong to anticipate a debate on two subjects which are already on the Order Paper, either for to-day or for next Tuesday, and I will say no more than that about individual industries.
As regards the White Paper, I think I ought to remind your Lordships of what the actual statement says, which is that the White Paper is (we hope) to be published next Monday afternoon, as soon as printing can be completed; and what was in my right honourable friend's mind to put in it, as I read from the statement, is the draft plan made public in Stockholm last night, together with the agreed statement with which the meeting was concluded. My right honourable friend will of course consider the particular suggestions which were made on the terms of the statement, but I think I should be less than frank if I did not point out that they are outside the scope of the White Paper as contemplated in the terms of the statement. However, I will convey what has been said to my right honourable friend, and no doubt he will think in what appropriate way, whether in that or some other, he can help noble Lords who wish for further details.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I am obliged to the noble Viscount. I think it would greatly help the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his aim to get this Plan approved if such special conditions as I have referred to could be included in the White Paper, so that we might know when the discussion comes what is intended. Otherwise it might imperil the free passage of what he wants.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am not sure without studying it—and like the noble

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Viscount the Leader of the Opposition I have not had that opportunity—what is in the Draft Plan. It may be that it meets the point. At any rate, I am sure that my right honourable friend would wish to consider what the noble Viscount has said.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I appreciate the difficulties of getting the White Paper earlier than Monday. Nevertheless, we are to debate this matter on Tuesday next and it does not give us very much time. Could the noble Viscount try to expedite publication and see whether it is at all possible—I should quite understand if it is not—for us to get this White Paper over the week-end, so that we may have a little longer time to study it?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: That again I will report to my right honourable friend, although I must point out that the sooner we try to get it out the less we shall be able to put in it. If it is desired in any way to go beyond the terms that I have read out, I should have thought that on Thursday afternoon it would be impossible in present conditions to get it agreed and printed, in order to be available before Saturday. I know that my right honourable friend would wish to study the convenience of Members of this House, so far as he can.
LORD SILKIN: It might be possible to get out two statements; that is to say, to get out the original information that was intended for the week-end, and possibly a supplementary statement on Monday, as suggested.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: That again will be noted. I do not want to preclude anything, but noble Lords, I hope, will be forbearing, bearing in mind that we are in considerable difficulty on more than one front at this time of the year.

NYASALAND, KENYA AND C.D.C. REPORTS
4.6 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PERTH): My Lords, before your Lordships continue the debate on The Highway Code, it might be convenient if I make the statement which was announced earlier this afternoon. I undertook on Tuesday, in reply to a Question addressed to me by the noble
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Lord, Lord Ogmore, to tell your Lordships to-day when the Report of the Nyasaland Commission of Inquiry under the chairmanship of MR. Justice Devlin would be laid before Parliament. The Report, together with a despatch from the Governor, is being published this afternoon and will be available in the Printed Paper Office at six o'clock.
I should also like to inform the House, in connection with the disciplinary inquiry arising from the deaths at Hola Camp in Kenya, that copies of the Command Paper containing the report of the disciplinary inquiry, together with the Governor's recommendations and my right honourable friend's conclusions on it, will be available in the Printed Paper Office later to-day. It has not been possible in the time available to publish the proceedings of the inquiry; but copies are being placed in the Library later to-day.
May I also touch on one other matter? My right honourable friend the Colonial Secretary received yesterday the Report of the Committee appointed under Lord Sinclair of Cleeves' Chairmanship to examine the functions and financial structure of the Colonial Development Corporation. As Your Lordships know, on Monday next we shall be debating the Corporation's Annual Report; and I am arranging for duplicated copies of the Sinclair Committee's Report to be made available to-morrow in the Printed Paper Office, in advance of printed copies.

THE HIGHWAY CODE
4.9 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, perhaps I might be allowed to revert for one moment to the Highway Code, after a considerable number of interruptions. I feel it necessary to say that, to me, the production of a new Highway Code in this country at this moment partakes of the nature of a grizzly farce. It is not a Highway Code that we require in this country to-day. You can add 1,000 clauses, instead of 30, to the Highway Code: but it will not stop the carnage on the road until you take much more drastic measures than writing out orders and rules. You have got to get the lorries and the big heavy traffic off the

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streets of the cities of this country, at any rate during the busy daylight hours. You have got to revolutionise, in my view, all the parking regulations; and, above all, you have got to bear in mind that cars are coming off the production lines of the motor car industry in this country, not every week but every day, far in excess of the capacity of our present roads to carry.
I want to submit, with all deference to Her Majesty's Government, that their present road programme is totally inadequate for the traffic the roads have to bear. I think that some definite statutory limitation will have to be put upon the number of cars that are placed annually upon the roads of this country. Whether that is done or whether it is not, there is no doubt whatever that an enormous expansion of road construction is necessary. The late Earl Lloyd-George proposed a great programme of road construction in 1929. It would have been good from an economic point of view, and we should have blessed it now if that had been carried out. Since that time, nobody has really tackled the problem of the roads of this country at all, or attempted to do so. No Government, neither a Labour Government nor a Conservative Government have ever really tackled it. As a result, considering the volume of traffic which they have to bear, the roads of this country are to-day more inadequate than the roads of any other civilised country in the world.
I feel very strongly about this matter, because I think that we salve our consciences by producing these endless rules, recommendations and exhortations. The noble Earl who introduced this Code this afternoon seemed to take some pride in the fact that another thirty-five exhortations have been added to the previous Highway Code. You are not going to do any good by exhortations, rules or codes. The only way to stop the increasing carnage on the roads of this country—and it is always a mystery to me why the public as a whole seem to be so indifferent to it, considering the amount of bloodshed that is involved every week of the year—is to limit the number of cars that are put on the roads, and to have a programme of road expansion at least twice the size of that which we have at the present time.
4.14 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, with much of what has fallen from the noble Lord I think one might agree, but I am afraid that I could not agree with the bulk or what he said. However, I will leave that for the moment. I cannot help feeling that some of the noble Lord's remarks would have been better directed to the question of special roads, the next item on the Order Paper. With regard to this edition of The Highway Code, I am afraid I do not share the noble Lord's pessimistic view. I think one aspect of it is most valuable. It will provide a sort of code of the highway for foreigners coming over to this country. Many more foreigners are coming with their cars to this country now than ever came before, and unless you make the Highway Code very simple for them, it is quite possible that they will find it difficult to understand. For years, Sweden has produced an illustrated volume of their Highway Code. Naturally, I do not know any Swedish, but I can follow the code they produce very easily by the little pictures it contains. In this Highway Code, I think the noble Lord was quite right when he said that its illustrations were valuable.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, talked about the double white lines. I rather share his views in some respects. The double white lines are being used on many roads of this country which are only twin-track roads. If anybody wants instances, they are to be found in Kent, but of course they are found in other places as well. Where there is a double white line marking on a twin-track road—that is, one line in each direction—it requires only a cyclist to be on the road to make it impossible for anybody who observes the law to pass. The twin-track idea is an extremely good one and works very well on the Continent. I hope that the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation will not lay down the double white line necessarily on every 20 ft. road. If that is done it merely increases the appalling congestion which takes place, and will not make any contribution to road safety.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, talked about the clearways and advocated them in London. I wonder whether the noble Lord has read page 9 of the Report of the Commissioner of The Metropolitan Police for the year 1958.

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I believe it is available in the Printed Paper Office to-day. This is what it says:
"The insufficiency of off-street parking facilities is embarrassing to the police as well as the public; on the other hand, if these facilities were to be liberally provided, there is the fear that the kerb space so relieved would merely attract additional cars into Central London."
This is, I think, the valuable point:
"The most practical approach to this problem of reducing the number of cars parked in the streets and so facilitating the flow of traffic appears to be the institution of fully controlled zones in Central London…"
I hope that the importance of that fact will not be lost upon your Lordships. At present, 240,000 come up to London in the morning and go away again in the evening, and I have said for a long time that if only one could reduce those numbers coming into the central area it would make the traffic conditions much better.
The Highway Code does one thing which I think is invaluable—it draws attention to mirrors and signals. I am very worried myself as to what may happen when the London-Birmingham and other big motorways really get going. Any of your Lordships who has watched people drive will have noticed the rather small and ancient car which wobbles along and goes from one lane to another, obviously with the driver not looking in his mirror. I cannot help thinking that when these big motorways get going they ought to be staffed with pretty good police patrols mounted on motorcycles which can, if they want, overtake any ordinary vehicle on the road—but not with any idea of securing convictions. My idea is that if they were able to range up alongside some of these people, often week-enders without much experience and with cars bought on the hire purchase, and give them a little wholesome advice, those people would probably never make the same mistakes again. On the other hand, if the police go out for convictions of course they can get them, but I do not think that this is the cure. What many of the drivers on our motorways, and on the ordinary roads as well, require more than anything else is wholesome advice on the way they are driving.
On cages 20 and 21 of The Highway Code there are some lovely illustrations about signs and signals. I wonder
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whether this insert was really necessary. Most cars have either trafficators or winkers, and their meaning is obvious. I do not believe that telling a lot of sometimes very inexperienced drivers to take their hands off the wheel—for example, the man who wants to turn left has to take his right hand off the wheel and put it over his left shoulder—is at all practical. I should like to submit to the noble Earl who introduced The Highway Code that before the Minister goes into a larger production of it these particular pages might be deleted. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, who said that he did not think that they would make much contribution to road safety. The central thing in my mind is that if you want to increase safety on the roads you have somehow to bring it about—insist, if you like—on drivers looking in their mirrors, which they must all carry whether they are heavy vehicles or not.
I would mention one point with regard to heavy vehicles. I was surprised to hear the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, launch out into a hot criticism of the heavy vehicle drivers.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, will the noble Earl allow me to intervene? I do not think he is being fair in saying I launched an attack on heavy vehicle drivers. I said I thought that the Highway Code ought to lay down definitely the space that it is advisable to leave between two heavy vehicles. If I am accused of attacking the heavy vehicle driver, I would point out that I said that the car driver was no better and no worse than he was.
EARL HOWE: I think the noble Lord anticipated what I was going to say. I accept his correction. The point is that the greatest gentlemen on the roads to-day are heavy vehicle drivers. It is true that there are exceptions who rather, to my mind, prove the rule. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that if they can be so instructed by their firms or union to allow ample space between their vehicles and not to drive close up as the noble Lord described, that will be a good thing; I think he is quite right there. Whether that is best tackled through the union or by means of the Highway Code I do not know.

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I do not want to weary your Lordships and take up time any longer. I merely want to pay a humble tribute to the Minister of Transport. He has been a little criticised by the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, this afternoon.
LORD BOOTHBY: Quite rightly.
EARL HOWE: The noble Lord, Lord Boothby, thinks he is quite right over that, but I can assure the noble Lord that the present Minister of Transport, with possibly all the defects outlined by the Estimates Committee and Heaven knows what else has succeeded in doing more than any of his predecessors. Does Lord Boothby, I wonder, ever go to the West Country. If he does, let him go and sample the roads of Devon and Cornwall. I have had the opportunity of going there many times and anything like those roads it is impossible to describe. I actually talked to the Minister about it, and he said, "What do you think can be done?" I said, "I do not know what can be done. I think it requires a complete new road system", but the cost of that is simply not practical politics.
LORD BOOTHBY: Perhaps the noble Earl will allow me to say this: that all Ministers of Transport for the last thirty years have been deplorable.
EARL HOWE: I do not know about that. At any rate, I do feel that in our Minister of Transport to-day we have someone who is keen on the job, someone who is anxious to deliver the goods. For Heaven's sake let us back him and not let loose a flood of rather tendentious criticism.
4.24 p.m.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I would agree with the noble Earl who has just resumed his seat, particularly on the subject of police motor-cycle patrols. I think it may be straying a little outside the terms of what we are discussing at the moment, but during the course of the afternoon it will certainly be relevant, even if it is not at this moment. A week or two ago I drove in the day-time from Fishguard Harbour to North Foreland, a distance of 360 miles, the full width of this country. It took me some hours. During that time I saw some perfectly dreadful instances of driving of different sorts, as your Lordships would have agreed if you had been
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with me. In practically no case was it a question of excessive speed—rather the reverse; it was a question of parking on the inside of bends, drivers driving at a steady 25 miles an hour, five or six feet out from the side of the road. All these things could be greatly helped by a well-trained team of motor-cycle police, well-trained men—not too young I suggest—who could wave the driver into the side and tell him what he was doing wrong. I suspect that most drivers would take quite kindly to that sort of advice. There would be no need to proceed against such a driver unless he had done something dangerous, but I think a little advice to some drivers would be a great help.
I remember being in France at the time when the centre white lines and broken lines came in. I was driving on one of the big roads and I went outside one of the lines. As I got over the top of the road two of the French gardes mobiles, men in black uniform and steel helmets, were on me like tigers, got me into the side and spoke in no uncertain terms. They pointed out that they would be completely within their rights in making me follow twenty-five miles to the local commissariat of police to be fined £20 on the spot. You can imagine the effect on my driving for the rest of the day—I proceeded with the utmost caution. I believe that something of that sort would have more effect than what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, described as the 94 exhortations.
If those of your Lordships who have been in the United States have had the appalling misfortune to drive to Long Island on a Saturday or Sunday evening, or back into New York, you will have seen traffic out of all proportion to any-anything on the Great West Road, some vehicles doing exactly 40 miles an hour and some 50 miles an hour, according to the law. If you break that law you very quickly hear a siren behind you. There again, you will be treated very firmly indeed—and in my view quite rightly. Other countries have tackled this matter in that way, and I personally believe that there is a great deal to be said for such a system as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, with his great experience of this matter, has advocated.
Before I resume my seat may I ask the noble Earl who is to reply if he can

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take note of one point which has perhaps been mentioned in your Lordships' House before? If it has, I apologise; I have never heard it. I should like to ask him whether, when a person is taking his examination for the driving licence, it would ever occur to him to light a cigarette or to have a cigarette in his hand. I am quite sure that it would not. It is quite clearly understood that the driver should have the full use of both hands in driving. I think that any examiner would insist on that. And yet once the driver has obtained his licence he will certainly smoke when he is driving, and it is not against the law. It has never even been suggested, so far as I know, that he should not do so. Yet he has not the full use of his hands; and should an accident occur, the chances of fire are enormously increased.
If your Lordships will bear with me, I will give one personal experience of that aspect. Some years ago one of my daughters was driving to a dance with three other young people. They stopped to buy cigarettes, but could not do so because it was too late in the evening. A little later the car was overturned in an accident. She was pulled out unconscious, with all her clothes soaked in petrol. Had she succeeded in buying the cigarettes she would certainly not be alive to-day. That is an extreme case; nevertheless, there must be many cases of fire after accident, due to the occupants of the car, either the passengers or the driver, smoking. Quite apart from the question of fire danger, there is the question of the driver not having 100 per cent. use of both hands. If this matter has been raised before, I apologise to the House and to the noble Earl."
4.31 p.m.
LOUD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I should like to add my support in regard to this new Highway Code which I personally think is a great thing. I stress that in spite of what has been said by certain noble Lords. On the whole, I think it is an excellent document, although possibly there are one or two small alterations which can be dealt with on a later occasion.
In offering my support, I should like to take this opportunity to express my disgust at the recent attacks that have been made in certain quarters on the
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Minister of Transport. I would say that the present Minister of Transport is the first to hold that position for many years who has made a really substantial contribution to our road system. The suggestion that no proper plans have been made for our roads is completely untenable. I am not without some knowledge of the proposed road systems and the work that has already been carried out on these roads, and I consider that the Minister, and his Department have carried out a first-class job of work in very difficult circumstances.
It has also been hinted in some quarters that insufficient research and experiments have been carried out on road-making in this country. On the contrary, I would say that the road contractors of this country have full information as to how to construct roads, and I feel sure that they will produce roads which will prove to be second to none anywhere in the world. When, some years ago, we had a Government of a different complexion from the present one, a grandiose plan for new roads was introduced in a Bill which was passed through both Houses of Parliament, but not a yard of new road was built under that Act. It is the Conservative Government that has produced and are producing the new roads.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Would the noble Lord allow me to intervene? I did not think this was going to be a Party political discussion, but he will realise from his own experience, will he not, that every Minister of Transport can build only as many roads as the Chancellor of the Exchequer will allow? The noble Lord will bear that in mind.
LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, all I can say is that that particular Government must have had a bad Chancellor of the Exchequer. At least I say that now the country has a Minister who has held the job long enough to make proper plans for our roads and to see them actually being carried out. Had he waited for all the i's to be dotted and all the t's to be crossed before proceeding with his roads, we should be back where we were three or four years ago. The inadequacy of our road system must be laid at the door of many Governments, but certainly not at the door of the present Government.
LORD GISBOROUGH: My Lords, in view of the enormous coverage by television and the cinemas, and of the value of advertising, is it not possible for these media to be used to a much greater extent in publicising the Highway Code? In this way people could be shown, by pictures, examples of good driving, bad driving, and particular points, such as turning to the right without looking, and all the various things that people do most. I am convinced that the cost of such advertising would be negligible in relation to the effect it would have.
4.35 p.m.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I am going to step most carefully in regard to the question of the Highway Code. I have been over thirty years in your Lordships' House, and although in that time I have seen debates move themselves from strict Order, I do not think I have ever heard a debate diverge so much from the subject matter as has happened today.
I welcome this Highway Code in many ways, and I am going to make comments on only two paragraphs, paragraphs 31 and 39, which are concerned with the use of mirrors and with turning right. I am sure that all your Lordships have at one time or another heard somebody say, "I was all right; I put out my hand." If one looks at paragraphs 31 and 39, the first directs you to look into your mirror and to take care before you signal what you are going to do. I submit to your Lordships that it is not put nearly strongly enough that you have no right to turn if you are going to inconvenience other people: you give an indication, but you stay put until it is clear to turn. There seems to be some sort of perverse or obstinate attitude in the Department, because the noble Earl, Lord Gosford, said that the Department took notice of seventy bodies and what they had to say. I know for a fact that many organisations have for years been saying that the proper direction for right-hand turning has never been put in a strong enough fashion in the Highway Code.
The remarkable thing is that in 1954 the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation issued a pamphlet Sense and Safety. At page 6 of that pamphlet they give the two main causes of accidents to drivers. The figures there are: first, crossing road junctions, 8,561; and then, turning right without care, 8,405. Your
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Lordships will see that turning right came a very close second. If one looks at page 53, at the general summary of road accidents issued in 1954, one sees that the total number of accidents again caused through turning right without due care was 14,660, and that the second highest number was 10,700-odd, for accidents concerning the crossing of road junctions.
Curiously enough, in 1957 we get the same sort of picture. In this case, at page 35, at the top of the list of accidents are the figures of vehicles turning right without due care, with a total of 18,600. This time the second top figure is crossing road junctions without care, for which the figure is 18,500. I do not know whether the figures for 1958 have been published, but there are copies available to authorities. At page 14 you will find that the number of accidents caused through turning right without due care numbered 12,467; and a close second, as usual, came the figure for crossing road junctions without due care, 11,705. Why will not the Ministry put into the Highway Code much stronger language about turning right? Why will they allow everybody to proceed on the understanding that if he puts out his hand he can turn? Before I came into the Chamber I spoke to my noble friend and asked if he would answer this question. In all the publicity that goes out, I suggest that there should be laid great emphasis on one's duty before one turns.
There is one more thing—namely, distribution of the Code. The noble Earl who is going to answer for Her Majesty's Government said something about not being able to give the Highway Code to every new licence holder, as it takes three years before you get one. I suggest that there is a very simple method of giving a copy to each home—namely, to put out one copy with each registration of a vehicle at the beginning of the year. It is not just a question of car drivers; copies should go also to cyclists, pedestrians and everybody else.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that the Post Office might deliver one to every house?
4.40 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I shall follow the excellent example of my noble friend who has just sat down and

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speak on The Highway Code, and not develop any of the irrelevant topics so eloquently dealt with by the noble Lord, Lord Boothby.
LORD BOOTHBY: Order, order!
LORD CONESFORD: The sole point that I would make is that it is right to get the drafting, even of such a document as The Highway Code, as good as it can be made. On the whole, I think the Minister has succeeded and he has made it a better Code than many we have seen in the past. At the beginning of this month I went through the draft Code, not realising that he intended to seek approval for it quite so soon, and I sent in about a dozen suggestions; not for altering the meaning but, as I thought, for improving the draftsmanship. I have received a characteristically polite and sensible letter from the Minister in reply, and he says, as I now know, correctly, that I am too late as regards that part of the document which we are expressly asked to approve as the Highway Code, since he had already sought the approval of Parliament for it. He has promised that my points will be considered on a future occasion, and with that I am content.
I also made a few proposals for those pages which are outside the parts we are asked to approve and with some of them perhaps he can deal. I only wish to draw attention to one matter which is in the Code itself, and with which he thinks he cannot deal, but perhaps my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor may be able to convince him that he can. If noble Lords will turn to pages 20 and 21 they will find on the left-hand of page 20 "Drivers and Riders Signals to Other Road Users," and on page 21, "Drivers and Riders Signals to Police Officers Controlling Traffic." Correct English and, indeed, literacy require that an apostrophe should appear after the final "s" in "Drivers" and "Riders" in the heading on both pages. I do not believe that the insertion of these four apostrophes and the consequential changes in the Table of Contents would really be altering the Code in a way likely to cause disapproval in either House. If the Lord Chancellor or the Law Officers advise that even this slight change cannot be made in order to make the Code literate, I have nothing else to say and we shall have to wait another five years
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for literacy. But I hope my noble and learned friend will say that the Code can be made more literate by the insertion of the necessary apostrophes after the letter "s".
4.43 p.m.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, like some of the noble Lords who have spoken immediately before me, I shall confine myself to the subject matter in hand. Your Lordships have already had a debate recently on the subject of road accidents, in which most of the views expressed to-day which were not on the Highway Code itself have already had a good airing.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, is, as we all know, a real expert on this subject, and I must say I tremble a little in front of him because I am, compared to him, only a new boy. I will not cross swords with him for that reason, but will try to give answers to one or two of the detailed points which he made. First of all, I think he mentioned that pedestrians should be brought under some rather greater control than exhortations about traffic lights. That is not an easy matter, because if you tell pedestrians that they can cross at the green light, unless you are going to have a break at every traffic light—a crossing where pedestrians can cross and vehicles cannot move at all—then it is not possible and too dangerous to bring that in as a definite regulation I think the noble Lord will agree that if it is to be brought in, it will have to be a gradual process. Even then I doubt whether it would in the end be justified. There would be many crossings where traffic would be held up where there are not normally a great deal of pedestrians.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I referred to streets with rather heavy traffic of both pedestrians and vehicles.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: Where crossings are heavily trafficked, there are inclined to be traffic signals for pedestrians themselves. Another point I think the noble Lord made was on the question of space between vehicles. He thought it should be more definite. Instead of the Code saying merely that a proper space should be allowed by the drivers, there ought to be something a

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little more specific. I think the noble Lord knows that the police did suggest that there should be some sort of formula on the lines of one yard for each mile per hour of speed: I am talking of vehicles that do not intend to pass. On the other hand, it was thought that the police formula was not suspectible to easy calculation; and I think that if a driver is going to start calculating on the basis, say, of thirty miles an hour, how many feet to the mile—three cricket pitches?—by the time he has done this he will probably have missed the pedestrian walking off the pavement, and there is another accident.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The Army do it.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: The Army do it in convoy, but of course they have all Army drivers trained in convoy work. It requires training to keep this distance: but can you submit the ordinary driver to a point on the horizon and say that he must always keep that distance between him and the vehicle in front? No, I think it is rather difficult. The Code says that drivers should keep a reasonable distance, and I think we shall have to leave it to the common sense of drivers to keep a distance commensurate with the speed at which they are going.
The noble Lord opposite also mentioned paragraphs 34 and 81, about passing on the left in the case of slow-moving traffic, and not passing on the left in the case of motorways. I am sure the noble Lord would agree with me that you cannot really compare the two things. It definitely slates in rule 34 (2) that
"in slow-moving congested traffic when vehicles in the lane on the right moving more slowly than you are"
passing on the left is permitted. This must apply, for instance, in London streets where you find one lane going faster than the other, where a blockage is caused perhaps by someone wanting to turn right. You cannot prevent people on the inside from continuing in a straight line; whereas on the motorway the conditions are completely different, and I think it is essential with fast-moving traffic that the drivers should know that it is not very likely that anybody will be passing them on their inside.
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My noble friend Lord Howe and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, mentioned the subject of double white lines. I think that Lord Lucas of Chilworth would like to make the double white lines completely solid and, as I understood it, not have a dotted line at all. The present system has worked in other countries for a long time. It has been successful abroad, and I would say that we ought to give our own drivers more time to get used to something which is brand new, in view of the fact that it is a success abroad. The noble Lord stated that the dotted line was an invitation to pass. I think that any driver who does pass the vehicle in front because he sees a dotted line, without taking due care—which is what the Highway Code calls for—ought to have his head examined. Admittedly, many drivers do need to have their head examined, but we cannot make rules down to the level of the lowest in mentality and outlook, otherwise there would be a great many more than ninety-four rules.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I apologise for interrupting, but may I ask whether it would not be possible to ensure that the double white line system is not used on roads of less than, shall we say, 40 feet? Where it is used on 20-feet-wide roads it becomes a menace.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I can assure the noble Earl that care will be taken not to lay double white lines on roads which are too narrow to permit it. But I think that to lay down a definite width as to whether they shall, or shall not, be used might cause difficulties. However, I can assure the noble Earl that they will not be placed on roads which are too narrow to take them.
EARL HOWE: They have been already.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I have no doubt that if the noble Earl would bring cases to the attention of my right honourable friend he would certainly look into them.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, will the noble Earl say what the Department's view is of the suitable width—what is right or wrong? He has said they would not be put on roads that are too narrow. Will he please say categorically what is "too narrow" in feet?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I have already said we cannot have a demarcation line because it might produce difficulties, but I will certainly look into the matter and let the noble Lord know whether it is possible to lay down some definite width.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, for the noble Earl's information, certain parts of the London—Folkestone road require looking at from that angle.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl. My noble friend Lord Howe mentioned police patrols. I can assure the noble Earl that the police throughout the country have already gone into this matter and are going to produce patrols to do much of what the noble Earl suggested that they should do. I cannot give him the exact instructions which they will receive, because they have not yet been fully decided, but the question is very much in the minds of the police authorities. I think that that also answers the question of the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham.
As to smoking, that, of course, is a matter of opinion. The noble Lord produced an argument about the case of cigarettes which might be a great cause of fire in the event of an accident; maybe. Furthermore undoubtedly if one smokes in a car one ought to light one's cigarette or pipe when one is stationary before one starts up. But this is a matter of opinion, as I say, and I think it will take quite a change of the present opinion among drivers before anything as drastic as a rule on that matter is brought in.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I asked specifically whether the noble Earl thought that anyone when being tested for a licence would be at all likely to smoke or whether the examiner would allow him to while being examined. If not, there was no indication of what examiners considered safe or unsafe. That is what I asked him.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I have never taken an ordinary driving examination; although I did take the advanced test yesterday and passed, and I admit I did not smoke.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, advanced in what—driving?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: Driving. The noble Lord, Lord Waleran, asked about rules 31 and 39. He mentioned this matter to me before I came into the Chamber and I admit I agreed in principle that the whole point should be that anything important should be high-lighted. I have since looked at the two rules he has mentioned and it seems to me that if we emphasise everything we get the position rather like that in the war. Everything was "top secret" in the end; if it was not "top secret" it never got anywhere. If we emphasise everything right the way through, then emphasis loses its force. I have looked at these rules again—as the noble Lord admitted, there is no question of altering them now—and I am not all that much in agreement with him, because if one reads them properly (and, after all, if one bothers to read this document one should read it properly) they are pretty clear. No. 39, for instance, says:
"Well before you turn right at a junction, take full account of the position and movement of following traffic. When safe to do so, signal your intention…"
I suppose that that could be underlined. However, what I will do is take the noble Lord's suggestion up so that when we are giving publicity in the future, publicity for that particular point should be included.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I am sure the noble Earl would agree with this. As this cause of accidents probably heads the bill, according to his own Department's figures, it would be wise to give it prominence and priority. I have quoted the figures to him. He can look them up himself.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I know them well.
LORD WALERAN: Give it priority then.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I am very glad to have heard the extremely welcoming remarks which most of your Lordships have made of the new Highway Code, and even more heartened by the defence of the present Minister of Transport which has come from all sides. Roads take a long time to build, and so when they are in the pipeline the fact that they are coming along is not always appreciated. But I think that any of

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your Lordships who have driven up north will agree that great work is being done.
Safety on the roads is an ever present problem. The figures of accidents are horrible. But much—in fact all—the blame must go to the individual road user. And this is at least one step. He will have a document which is attractive and which we hope he will be attracted to; and with its clear setting, both in pictures and in words, of what is expected of him, we hope we shall get a code of road manners among road users which will reduce this toll.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SPECIAL ROADS (CLASSES OF TRAFFIC) ORDER, 1959 MOTOR VEHICLES (SPEED LIMIT ON SPECIAL ROADS) REGULATIONS, 1959
4.59 p.m.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD THE EARL OF GOSFORD rose to move, That the Special Roads (Classes of Traffic) Order, 1959, and the Motor Vehicles (Speed Limit on Special Roads) Regulations, 1959, be approved. The noble Earl said: My Lords with your Lordships' permission I will move the Special Roads Order and the Motor Vehicles Regulations together. Statutory Instruments similar to those now on the Order Paper were approved by your Lordships last year before the Preston By-pass was opened. Those Statutory Instruments were deliberately experimental and expire on August 1 next.
In the 1958 Classes of Traffic Order, vehicles carrying abnormal indivisible loads (other than military and defence vehicles) were excluded from the motorways. But special arrangements were made, under regulations governing the Preston By-pass, for the Chief Constable of Lancashire to permit certain overwide vehicles on the by-pass for experimental purposes. The new Order now made is a permanent Order, and contains the same exclusions as the 1958 temporary Order except that it makes no provision for excluding abnormal indivisible loads. Experience of these loads on the Preston By-pass, although not very great, appears to indicate that no special difficulty has been experienced in dealing with them,
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although the wider ones have had to be escorted. My right honourable friend feels, therefore, that abnormal indivisible loads should be restored to their place as one of the permitted classes of traffic on motorways, and he proposes to control them by other means.
The movement of abnormal indivisible loads on roads generally is governed by the Motor Vehicles (Authorisation of Special Types) General Order, 1955, which allows such loads up to a width of 20 feet to be moved without prior authorisation. My right honourable friend proposes to amend this Order, which is subject neither to Affirmative nor to Negative Resolutions, so that, in respect of motorways, the maximum width of abnormal indivisible loads is 14 feet. In reaching this conclusion, account was taken of the fact that the haulier of any load over 9½ feet wide is already required by law, and will continue so to be, to give two clear days' notice to the police of the intended movement, so that the police authorities concerned with a motorway will have the opportunity to decide whether a load should be escorted or whether, where there are special reasons connected with the date or time of movement or otherwise, they should exercise their existing powers to divert the load from the motorway altogether.
On the other hand, the insertion of this limit in the General Order will not mean that the movement of wider loads than 14 feet will be totally prohibited on motorways, but merely that every such load will need a prior individual authorisation from the Ministry. Should these proposals for dealing with abnormal indivisible loads prove to be unsatisfactory, the General Order can readily be amended.
Now, my Lords, I turn to the second set of Regulations. As in the case of the 1958 Classes of Traffic Order, the 1958 Speed Limit on Special Roads Regulations were temporary Regulations, and they also expire on August 1, 1959. The 1958 Regulations provided that the only vehicles permitted to use motorways to which a speed limit applied were cars or other vehicles drawing a two-wheeled trailer, or close-coupled four-wheeled trailer—normally a caravan, in which case the limit was placed at 40 m.p.h. This limit did not

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apply to articulated vehicles. Experience has shown these arrangements to be satisfactory, and the effect of the new Regulations is to make provision indefinitely on precisely the same lines as in the 1958 Regulations. My right honourable friend sees no need to impose a special speed limit on abnormal indivisible loads on motorways because these are, in the main, incapable of being moved at excessive speeds. He sees no reason to discourage their proceeding at reasonable speeds, as by so doing they will cause the minimum of obstruction to other traffic. My Lords, I beg to move that this Order and these Regulations be approved.
Moved, That the Special Roads (Classes of Traffic) Order, 1959, be aproved.
That the Motor Vehicles (Speed Limit on Special Roads) Regulations, 1959, be approved.—(The Earl of Gosford.)
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I do not intend to raise another debate on these Orders. The second one, I think we can safely say, we agree with. I do not know whether I agree or disagree with the first one, about the abnormal indivisible loads. I would have suggested to the noble Lord that he might, in some form or another, have given the House the information which he has now given before this date when he wants his Order. He knows very well that abnormal loads have been the subject of very spirited debate in your Lordships' House, and are one of the factors we have to look at very carefully in the regulation of our traffic over the main roads of this country. I do not know that I disagree with what he has done with specific reference to the Preston By-pass, which will now be universal; that is to say, that 14 feet will be the maximum permitted width for these abnormal loads on motorways. But I can promise him that, if he is in his place on that side of the House when we return from the Summer Recess, this matter will have to be debated. I gather from him that the Regulation can be amended at any time. With that assurance, we on this side of the House are prepared to let it go for the time being.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, may I take this opportunity of congratulating my right honourable friend the Minis-
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ter of Transport on taking what I think is the common-sense and practical view on this rather vexed question of abnormal loads on motorways? The effect of the regulations he is going to issue is, as I see it, that the regulations controlling abnormal loads will, with one important exception, be the same as they have been heretofore. This will mean that not only will the operators of commercial vehicles be grateful that they are not to be swamped by a whole lot of new regulations, but their drivers, passing from one road to another, will be even more grateful. The regulations, being virtually the same, will be well understood. The only difference is this question of the 20 feet width and the 14 feet width. On ordinary roads vehicles over 20 feet wide will need a special movement order, which may or may not be granted on a particular road; but in the case of motorways if a load is over 14 feet in width then it will require a special movement order Motorways were made to move commercial traffic. Such experience as has so far been gained points to the fact that the smaller abnormal loads are perfectly satisfactory on a motorway. Again, as I say, I should like to congratulate the Minister on having taken the commonsense view on this particular question.
On Question, Motions agreed to.

TRANSFERRED UNDERTAKINGS (COMPENSATION TO EMPLOYEES) REGULATIONS, 1959
5.7 p.m.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I beg to move that these Regulations be agreed to. The purpose of these draft Regulations made under Section 101 of the Transport Act, 1947, is to require the British Transport Commission to pay compensation to officers and servants employed in connection with the Caledonian and Crinan Canals or Holyhead Harbour Board, which were transferred to the Commission under that Act on April 1, 1948. The grounds on which compensation can be claimed are loss of employment, reduction of emoluments or other money loss, loss of pension rights, or worsening of position with respect to the conditions of service as a whole. The loss or reduction or worsening must have

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occurred in consequence of the transfer of these undertakings to the Commission.
Approval to the making of these Regulations has not up to now been sought because the undertakings concerned operated as before the transfer with no displacement of staff. Their new conditions were as good as before the transfer, and until the middle of 1957 no claim had been recorded. Notice was received in 1957 that a claim might be put forward in respect of two employees at Holyhead Harbour, and it was decided that the necessary Regulations should be made in case that claim should mature. Without the Regulations, their claims could not be adjudicated upon.
The draft of the Regulations was agreed with the various bodies concerned, including the Transport Salaried Staffs' Association, the Transport and General Workers' Union, and the National Union of Railwaymen.
Before the draft could be laid for approval, certain legal problems had to be resolved, and these were finally cleared by reference to the Law Officers of the Crown. So that a claimant may not be prejudiced by the fact that these Regulations were not made nearer to the time of the transfer of these undertakings, provision is made for an award of compensation to be retrospective—provided, of course, a claim is made in the prescribed time. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Transferred Undertakings (Compensation to Employees) Regulations, 1959, be approved.—(The Earl of Gosford.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (GLOUCESTER) CONFIRMATION BILL
House in Committee (according to Order), on report from the Unopposed Bill Committee: Bill reported without amendment.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 16), Bill read 3a, and passed.

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (MEDWAY LOWER NAVIGATION) CONFIRMATION BILL
House in Committee (according to Order), on report from the Unopposed Bill Committee: Bill reported without amendment.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of July 16), Bill read 3a, and passed.

NATIONAL GALLERIES OF SCOTLAND BILL
5.13 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD FORBES): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Forbes.)
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I should like to raise briefly a point in this Bill, of which I gave notice to the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, yesterday. This is a Bill which sets up a Gallery of Modern Art in Edinburgh at Inverleith House, and perhaps I may remind your Lordships of what was said on Second Reading by the noble Earl, Lord Haddington. Incidentally, I would say that Scotland is deeply grateful to the noble Earl for all his public activities in the domains of antiquity and art, and I would include in that commendation, if I may, the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, who has just entered the Chamber. The noble Earl, Lord Haddington, said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 218 (No. 102), col. 91]:
"There is no collection of modern art in Edinburgh at present—nothing to speak of at all. It will all have to be built up from scratch. And if this collection is going to be worthy of the capital of a great country and is going to be representive of modern British and foreign art, the purchase grant of £7,500 is quite inadequate."
It is true that £7,500 is indeed a small sum for the purpose to which it is to be devoted—namely, to the purchase of pictures and sculptures representative of modern art. The point that I should like to emphasise this afternoon is that the pictures are to be representative of the better productions of modern art. We

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all know that there are great modern artists, lesser modern artists, and also so-called artists, whose products are like nothing on the face of this earth, hideous in the extreme and completely meaningless to the ordinary intelligence.
Now, let it not be thought for a moment that in saying what I am saying, I am presuming to give advice in this matter to the Trustees for whom I, and all Scots, have the greatest admiration and respect. But I think that in saying this I shall have behind me a large number of the public—the long-suffering public in this respect. I express the earnest hope this afternoon that the Trustees will refrain altogether from purchasing the dreadful exhibits of some so-called artists who are egotistical enough to believe that they surpass the skill of the Old Masters and of modern painters, including the painters of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, in depicting on canvas the features of human beings and the realities of animate and inanimate nature.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, personally, I entirely agree with the sentiments expressed by the noble Viscount. I think that probably we should remember that the Trustees of the Galleries are trying to amass a collection of modern art which will appeal not only to the people of to-day but also to future generations. While obviously the selection of exhibits must remain a matter for the Trustees, it may be of some assurance to the noble Viscount to know that the exhibits are to be entirely of the twentieth century, which, of course, goes back to 1900; and, that being so, I cannot help feeling that the noble Viscount will find some pictures and sculptures which will be pleasing to him.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

EXPORT GUARANTEES BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
FINANCE BILL
Read. 3a (according to Order), and passed.
NEW TOWNS BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

IMPORT DUTY ON DANISH PIG-MEAT
5.20 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN rose to draw attention to the disastrous consequences which will result to the pig industry in this country if the proposed withdrawal of the duty of 10 per cent. on the import of Danish bacon and pig-meat takes place; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, at long last I am able to move the Motion standing in my name. First of all, I would apologise to your Lordships for having two Motions before the House on successive days. It is no fault of mine; I have not arranged it that way, but the exigencies of public business have so ordered it that these Motions have come in the way they have. Before I begin I should like to declare a double interest in this matter. First of all, I am President of the British Association of Pig Producers; and secondly, I am a medium producer of bacons.
I put this Motion down last Thursday following the statement made in connection with the agreement between the British Government and the Danish Government relating, among other things, to the abolition of the 10 per cent. import duty on bacon. I intend to deal solely with the probable effect that; this will have on those engaged in the production and in the curing of bacon. I want to say straight away that I express no opinion on the proposed free trade agreement at this stage: we have not the full particulars of it and we are going to debate it next Tuesday. However, on the face of it, unless the conditions are something that we ought not to accept, I should be prepared to view such an agreement favourably. But for the purpose of this debate I would ask your Lordships to assume, without prejudice, that this seven-Power agreement is for the common good and should be supported; that it is essential in that agreement to include Denmark; that Denmark must be given some inducement to come in, and that the abolition of the 10 per cent. tariff on bacon imports is the most suitable inducement that we can offer to Denmark—or, at any rate, the one that will commend itself most to her.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords may I interrupt the noble Lord for one moment? He said that he was going to

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confine himself strictly to the effect on the pig-producing industry in this country. But he would not wish, I imagine, to confine the whole debate strictly to that issue, because, obviously, if our pig producers are going to suffer at all, there must be balancing conditions which would have to be referred to in the course of the debate. What I am really asking is whether the noble Lord wishes to confine the debate absolutely to pigs and bacon, or whether he would like to range a little wider.
LORD SILKIN: I think that what I want to say will be apparent, and it would be difficult to answer the noble Lord without anticipating certain parts of my speech. But I am primarily concerned with the effect of this agreement on the bacon producer.
I want to lay down a number of propositions which I hope the House, and particularly the Government, will accept. First of all, I want to lay down the proposition that you cannot abolish a duty which, in part at least, is a protective duty, without the industry protected incurring loss, and accordingly that the bacon producing and curing industry will suffer—and whether the Government are going to make up the loss or not is another question. Secondly, I would say that it is Government policy to maintain a reasonably-sized bacon industry in this country, showing a fair return to those engaged in the industry; and it is also Government policy not to wish the industry to contract or decline any further. The third proposition I want to make is that it is wrong to ask a relatively small industry and a small section of the community to sacrifice itself for the benefit of the community, as a whole—and that is perhaps part answer to the noble Lord, Lord Boothby. I propose to say a few words about each of those propositions.
First there is the effect of the abolition of the duty on the industry. Most noble Lords in this House who are engaged in this industry—and a great many are—will agree that the industry is becoming increasingly efficient. The days when bacon producing was a hit and miss business are rapidly disappearing. There is the small producer, the man who keeps two or three sows in his spare time in his back garden or on a part of his small
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farm; but I am not counting him. By and large, the bacon industry is becoming a specialised industry: there are the breeders, the bacon producers and the curers and those who produce pork. But more and more each of them is specialising in the particular field in which he is carrying on. A great deal of research and experiment is taking place in breeding, in types of housing, in heating, ventilation, methods of feeding, management and the rest. I would say that, by and large, we are as efficient in the bacon industry as is any other country in the world. I have taken the opportunity of visiting a considerable number of farms in Denmark in the hope that I could learn something which I could pass on to producers in this country, but I am bound to say that I found little or nothing that I could learn from them, having regard to the different conditions under which they work—and I will say a word or two about that in a moment. I believe there is as much research, experiment and scientific work going on here, and as efficient methods of management, as anywhere else in the world.
There is a large and growing capital employed in the industry. The difficulty from which the industry is suffering is the lack of a clear and definite Government policy. At one time the industry was encouraged to produce more and more; at a later stage production was shut down; and to-day we are not certain as to whether the existing production is right—whether the Government expect greater production or whether they expect less. The subsidy has varied from year to year in a downward direction, and one never knows from one year to another what assistance the pig producer is going to get. I venture to say that to-day, under present conditions, no pig farmer in the country is able to get a reasonable return on the capital employed, and still less to get a reasonable reward for the efforts that he himself puts into the industry.
I am not for one moment suggesting that all pig producers are operating at a loss; but when you take into account the capital employed in the business I would say that even the most efficient would be better employed taking his capital and putting it into gilt-edged securities than in trying to raise bacons; and he could

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use his time more profitably. That is shown by the fact that many pig producers have given up keeping pigs; and the trend is still continuing. I know a number of noble Lords in this House who have told me that in the past two years they have given up keeping pigs producing bacon; and that applies throughout the country. The estimate is that in the next twelve months there will be something like 1¼ to 1½ million fewer pigs produced for slaughter than there have been in the past twelve months.
When this question was raised in another place last Tuesday, those who raised it were accused of being scaremongers. I hope the noble Earl who is to reply will not accuse those who are trying to take an objective view of the industry, and who speak with some knowledge of it, of trying to raise scares. If there is any scare in the industry it already exists. People do not lightly turn away from farming activities unless they feel that they are not able to carry on. The scare is there, and it is for the Government to see what they can do to remove it. The position is sufficiently serious as matters stand, without the added factor of the abolition of the protective duty.
I should like to say a few words as to why, with the efficiency that I say the industry is exercising, it cannot compete with Denmark, in particular, and with other countries. Why are they able to under-sell us in the British market? There are a number of factors. The first is the question of labour costs. We in this country are an industrial nation, and we have to compete all the time with the industrialist for farming labour. By and large, a farm worker expects as high a standard of living as the industrial worker. Although the actual wages may be less, when you take into account the housing and the overtime, which is inevitable, the bonuses and all the rest of it, the actual value to the farm worker of what he gets is at least equal to what the industrial worker gets. I am not criticising that fact; it is a fact, and I am happy that it should be the case. But in Denmark they have not that competition with industry. Denmark is not primarily an industrial country; it is primarily an agricultural country. Therefore, the standard of remuneration of the worker is substantially less.
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The next point is the higher cost of feeding in this country. I said that our method of feeding is highly scientific. In Denmark they are under no such obligation. Their feeding consists almost entirely of barley, which is home-grown, and of skimmed milk, which is produced on the spot. One of the reasons they can feed their pigs on barley and skimmed milk is that over generations they have produced the type of pig, the Landrace, which can take barley. In the case of the English pig, barley would be much too fattening and would not produce a good bacon. They can feed their pigs on barley without their suffering and getting too fat. And they produce all their own barley. We have to import a great deal of our feeding-stuffs from abroad, and we have to use expensive proteins, such as fishmeal and so on, which is far more costly than skimmed milk. Moreover, some of our feeding-stuffs carry a 10 per cent. import duty. The result of all that is that it costs us far more to feed the pig and to bring it up to bacon than it does the Danish producer. I do not want to dwell on this aspect at too great length, but I have given at least two of the important factors which enable the Danish producer to under-sell the British producer—the cost of labour and the cost of feeding.
The Danes have been very wise in their generation. They will not export the Landrace pig. The Swedes are willing to export them, and the Landrace pigs that one sees in the market, and for which one pays high prices, are the inferior type of Landrace, the Swedish pig. But, as I say, the Danish Landrace is never seen in this country alive. I want to put this point to Her Majesty's Government. If there is to be free trade between the countries, why cannot we have free trade in the export of pigs? Why cannot we insist that the Danes should export the Landrace pig if British producers want to buy it? I hope that the noble Earl will make a note of that, and see whether he cannot get some satisfaction in that direction.
If we could get the Danish Landrace over here and breed from it, I believe that a great many of our difficulties would disappear. If we are going to try to produce an equivalent pig to the Danish Landrace, it is going to take us not five or ten years, but at least a couple of

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generations. I admit that our breeding policy is producing better and better pigs, but even to-day the proportion of Grade 1 pigs which carry the bonus—that is, the pig of over 800 millimetres in length which is graded "1"—represents at the most about 30 per cent., taking one week with another. The "AA" pig, of course, is of a bigger proportion, but the Grade 1 of the right length is not more than about 30 per cent. on an average.
I submit that, with all these difficulties, the abolition of the duty will still further turn the scales against the British producer. There is no reason to believe that the abolition of this duty by itself will materially increase consumption of bacon in this country. There are various methods by which consumption could be encouraged. One method might be the reduction in cost; but for the reasons I have given, so far as the British producer is concerned, that is for the time being difficult. So if the consumption of bacon remains relatively stationary—there may be fluctuations—and if Denmark gets a bigger share of the sales of bacon, then obviously the British producer will get less and he will produce fewer pigs with much the same overheads. It is virtually impossible for him to reduce overheads, except labour costs, in proportion to the reduction in his production of pigs. So that the overheads will remain; the output of pigs will be smaller, and, consequently, the gross profit per pig will decline. Already the bacon producer is on the edge of solvency, and in my view this step may well tip the scale.
The Minister gave certain assurances in another place, and I should like to comment on those. One assurance was that the guaranteed minimum price will not be reduced at the next Price Review. As I have said, even with the existing subsidy no bacon producer could carry on if he got no more than the minimum price. The only way in which the bacon producer can hang on at all is that the minimum price is the bottom but that, by and large, going right through the year, the average price he gets is greater than the minimum. If the noble Earl would like to make a calculation and see what the minimum price means in terms of the amount the producer would get, I am sure he would be satisfied that he could not live on what bacon will produce
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at the minimum price. So it is anticipated—it has been the case up to now—that in the good times of the year the price which the producer will receive will be more than the minimum, and sometimes substantially more. There are other times when he gets only the minimum, and he catches up by averaging throughout the year. If in fact he is compelled to live on the minimum—and in my view that is one of the dangers with which he is faced: that prices will be depreciated through competition with the Danes, who, as I have explained, can beat us—it will mean that the British producer is finished. So I submit that merely offering the bacon producer the minimum price is not sufficient in the circumstances; it will not help to save the industry.
Furthermore, the promise is for one year only. I imagine that the year in question will begin somewhere about February or March of next year, or later. At any rate, in that year there will be no material reduction in the tariff, because this first 5 per cent. reduction comes into operation on July 1, 1960, and the second 5 per cent. on July 1, 1961. The full effects of this change will not be felt in the coming year, and the assurance that we have been given is for one year only. Again, the subsidy is calculated on all pigs, and I am advised that only one-third of the total pigs will get the benefit of the guarantee; it will not be applicable to all bacons. There is no doubt, as I have explained, that the industry will suffer.
My Lords, I have referred entirely to the bacon producer, but there is the equally serious position of the curer. At present he is working to not more than half capacity. I have not the exact figures; some say 40 per cent.; some put it a little higher. But it is certainly not more than 50 per cent., and there is no likelihood of that percentage increasing. If anything is likely it is that the number of pigs available for curing will be even less. A number of producers will go over to pork, and a number will go out of business altogether. I remember that only a few years ago it was difficult to get all the bacon that we produced cured. I remember that one week I sent (I think it was) 30 bacons. I had notified 29 to the curers, and they sent one back. They would not accept the thirtieth bacon for curing. To-day, of course, if

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you notify 10 and send 20 they are only too delighted; they will accept any number that you care to send. The noble Earl shakes his head, but I am doing it constantly. I know what I am talking about; I am speaking from experience. It does not matter what you notify. You can send three times the number and they will take them with gratitude.
My first point, then, was that we do want to maintain a profitable industry. The next point is that we want a fair-sized national pig industry. At least I hope it is so. I hope that the Government are not prepared to sacrifice the industry in order to induce Denmark to participate; that they do not, in fact, regard the pig industry as expendable. So I come to my third proposition, that it is wrong to ask or expect a small section of our population to sacrifice itself in the common good. I know that that is no doubt the noble thing to do, and that is what the Government are asking the industry to do. But in fact there is really no precedent for the wiping out of any industry in the interests of the community without compensation or without any action on the part of the Government. There is little dispute as to the facts. I hope I have established that the producers will be to some extent sacrificed. There is really no doubt about this: it was admitted in another place. MR. Butler, in another place, said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 609 (No. 145), col. 32]:
"…it would be wrong to say that no damage will be done, but the subsidy and guaranteed prices will continue for British producers and the curers, will have the benefit of the Government guarantee on pigs."
Well, that is admitting that damage will be done, but saying that the guarantee will put it right. I have endeavoured to establish that the guarantee will not put it right. I hope that I have satisfied the House that the guarantee in itself is not good enough.
I have tried to place before the House, fairly, I hope, objectively, and without exaggeration, the position of the bacon industry and their fears, I believe justifiable fears, for the future. It is not for me to put forward any specific hard and fast solution, but I would ask the Government to ponder deeply and consider the position seriously, and to take all steps, including discussions with the bacon industry, to ensure that they have
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the facts correctly. If this industry is not to die, we must have an assurance that the last word has not been said and that in the light of this debate the Government are prepared to have second thoughts. I beg to move for Papers.
5.50 p.m.
LORD AMHERST OF HACKNEY: My Lords, we have listened as usual to a most interesting speech from the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who has reviewed the present position of the bacon industry and has shown us in the most interesting way the difficulties that the bacon industry finds in competing with the Danes. But I do think that we ought for a moment to look at the terms of the Motion on the Order Paper. The Motion is:
"To draw attention to the disastrous consequences which will result to the pig industry in this country if the proposed withdrawal of the duty of 10 per cent. on the import of Danish bacon and pig-meat takes place."
It seems to me, having listened carefully to the noble Lord's speech—and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong—that the main complaint that the noble Lord makes is that if the producer had to rely on the guaranteed price then he would go out of business, which surely is an argument for a review of the guaranteed price of pigs rather than for saying that, as the result of this removal of the duty, disaster will necessarily come to the pig industry.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the noble Lord has invited me to correct him if he is wrong or if he has misinterpreted me, and I hasten to do so. I would not have raised this debate at all, and the pig industry would not have wished me to do so, but for the 10 per cent. reduction. We are content to struggle on in the hope of better times if the competition is not accentuated, as we feel it will be, by the abolition of the duty. Therefore it is the direct result of the abolition of the duty that I was hoping to put before the House.
LORD AMHERST OF HACKNEY: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, but I think that he would agree with me that the pig industry, like many other of our agricultural producers, relies basically on the guaranteed price for its stability and in order to be enabled to compete with world prices. In fact, I think that what he has said is that

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the removal of the 10 per cent. duty will cause the producer to rely on that price and not, as at present, part of the year getting more and part of the year getting the price. After all, as the noble Lord mentioned in his speech, any loss that is caused to the producer from a fall in the price of bacon will be made up. We have had various other assurances, such as that the cost to the Revenue of the loss of any duty on imported pigs will not be taken into account. So surely we have got to the position that, in spite of any removal of this duty, even if the Danes send in a lot of bacon and reduce the price, then still the price which the producer will get will be the guaranteed price. It is by no means certain that the Danes will necessarily send in vast quantities of bacon and there by reduce the price that they will get. It cannot really be in their interests to break the market; and even if they do try to do so, surely the British curer and producer, with the guarantees behind them, are in a fairly strong position to compete with that threat, because any less price that they get for their product will be made up by the taxpayer.
I should have thought that the curer, although it has been said that at the moment he is in a difficult position, is in fact in a very much stronger position than almost any other person who has to compete with foreign imports, in that the price of his source of raw material is guaranteed by the Government. If he is forced to pay less for it, the Government make up the difference to the producer, which seems to me to put him in a fairly strong position. After all, the Danes have not been promised that we would not use our subsidies to maintain our present position in the market. In fact, it is quite clear in the Agreement that we are entitled to do so. So that in attempting to capture a larger share of the present market by trying to flood it, it seems to me that they are getting little benefit themselves because they merely bring down the price, and the only person who would suffer is the British taxpayer, not, I venture to say, the bacon producer.
We have agreed, I think, that if there is any increase in the market then they would be entitled to get a share, or rather we should not use our subsidies to prevent them. But that is a different
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question. In that case the British bacon industry would be producing more pigs than they are at the moment. Although the bacon industry are producing at well below capacity, they have this year, I think I am right in saying, produced considerably more bacon pigs for slaughter in both April and May than went for bacon in April and May last year; and I think I am right in saying that last year was a fairly high year. So that although they may not be working to capacity, they are at the moment still working at a fairly high level.
But I think that what we all want to do—and I believe that since this Agreement has been announced the Government have taken every possible opportunity of doing—is to reassure the bacon producer, because everybody in this House wants a stable, efficient bacon pig industry. That is why I fear that Motions like this on the Order Paper, which are seen and quoted in certain papers outside, have an extremely damaging effect. The speech of the noble Lord was most moderate, but the Motion on the Order Paper is not, and I think that there may be many producers of bacon pigs who, on reading this Motion, might be extremely anxious as to whether the future of their industry was in danger. Therefore I think that we should take every opportunity of reassuring them. I feel that the Government have gone a long way to do this, both by the assurances that have been quoted and by saying that the price next year will be not less than the present price. Also there are two more Price Reviews before the full 10 per cent. duty comes off. And the pig industry has after all a very efficient organisation in the National Farmers' Union—and we are very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe is going to speak to us this afternoon—which can put the case before the Government. Therefore I feel that the bacon producers have very little to fear from this agreement.
6.0 p.m.
LORD NETHERTHORPE: My Lords, I am very sensible of the privilege of being able to address your Lordships' House by intervening in this debate. I must, however, declare my interest, having constant concern for the well-being of the agricultural community as a whole. I know many of your Lordships

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share that concern with me, and I am always interested and encouraged to see the enlightened and authoritative debates that take place in your Lordships' House on matters agricultural.
I am interested and concerned for the agricultural community because its prosperity is so vitally and directly related to the economic buoyancy of the country as a whole. That, I think, is a fundamental factor that none of us must forget. I therefore thought that it would be helpful if I sought to clarify some of the issues which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has posed and to which the noble Lord, Lord Amherst, has added. It is, in my view, just as unwise to exaggerate the consequences of the two-stage withdrawal of the bacon tariff as it would have been to claim that the implementation of the decision to remove the 10 per cent. duty on bacon would be inconsequential. Indeed, those who contend that it spells ruin for pig producers can sow such seeds of despondency in the pig industry as to undermine producers' confidence to an extent that our total production further declines and our share of our own market contracts in consequence.
On the other hand, those who would have sought to be little its effects would have been blinding themselves to the need to counter the ill-effects and to ensure an expanding economic pig industry in this country capable of taking an increasing share in the home market, to which its progressive efficiency has, in my view, entitled it. As essentially an industrial manufacturing country, our economy is geared to, and indeed reliant upon, a substantial export trade. We are constantly being told that we must export or decline. But clearly we should use the productive resources of our basic industries, particularly agriculture, to the best national advantage. Her Majesty's Government have pursued progressively and vigorously a policy of trade liberalisation. Indeed, I contend with other noble Lords that the trade policy of this Government is perhaps more liberal than any of its predecessors. This course of liberalisation is calculated to yield, on balance, an advantage to the country as a whole. But in the process hurts are bound to be inflicted on somebody along the road.
If the policy is continued, then I think suffering must be mitigated. That is why
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we have progressively sought assurances from the Government over the last few weeks during the course of negotiations. But, if I may, I should like to analyse the position with regard to the 10 per cent. direct tariff on bacon, because the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has been addressing his remarks particularly to the impact on the pig industry of the decision on bacon. In point of fact it originated after the Ottawa Conference in 1932 where, your Lordships will remember, Imperial Preference was virtually born, and it was decided that the order of preference in the market should be first place in the home market for the home producer, second place for the Commonwealth and third place for the others—the "also rans."
We had no mechanism for giving effect to that policy until 1933, when the Agricultural Marketing Act, the second one, was passed. That Act enabled us, as a country, to impose preferential quotas, after reference to I.D.A.C. It was made possible only because the prerequisite was that the home industry should in itself effect quantitative restriction, and the pigs marketing scheme was promoted under that particular revised Marketing Act. So the preferential quota system was arranged; and Canada, for instance, got a preferential quota which lasted right up to the beginning of the last war. At that time there was no import duty on bacon at all, and therefore the preferential quota system replaced, so to speak, preferential tariffs in achieving the same objective.
There was also, of course, no guaranteed price to the producers. Then war came, and in 1940 the Government itself took over the whole responsibility for handling imports, such as they were, of bacon. That position carried on postwar, and bulk-buying continued, first under the Ministry of Food, and then, after the merger, by the Ministry of Agriculture. It was the equivalent of quantitative regulation by dint of the fact that bulk-buying was performed on State account. We had fixed prices for pigs in this country up to 1954 and then the system was changed to a system of deficiency payments where by we had standard prices—not minimum prices as the noble Lord suggested, but standard prices—and a free market: a free market, that is, except that in bacon the

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Government continued to be controlled by bulk-purchase contracts until the end of 1956.
The negotiations that took place at the beginning of 1956 with Denmark were concerned with how we could translate or emerge from bulk buying into a free market concept while still retaining the preferential system of the Commonwealth: and it was decided to invoke the clause in G.A.T.T., Annex A, which permits transferment of quantitative regulation system into a tariff; reputedly to be that sort of equivalent. That being so, the Government determined in their negotiations that the preferential tariff should be 10 per cent. Quite frankly, I have been intrigued at the suggestion that the 10 per cent. tariff was itself intended as a means of raising revenue in order to strengthen the price support mechanism. I do not recollect its being given such force when the announcement was actually made in 1956—although, of course, it is somewhat analogous in concept to the levy subsidy system.
What I have always felt it was designed to do was to reintroduce in post-war and post-control days the concept of preferential treatment to a member of the Commonwealth. It was never suggested that it was a means of protecting the producer of pigs in this country, because, of course, emanating from the 1947 Agriculture Act, it had always been suggested that the proper way of treating agricultural commodities in the first Schedule of the Agriculture Act was by the assurance of market and the guarantee of price. Nevertheless, we were not unwelcoming when the 10 per cent. tariff was in fact imposed. We recognised it as providing some assistance to the agricultural community and the bacon curing industry in the process.
The producers at large, I would say, however, do not regard tariff for bacon as necessarily the most desirable means of controlling imports to this market. I would go the whole way with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in saying that the guaranteed price system of the free market and the standard price is not alone capable of giving the stability to the agricultural community, the pig producers, that is desirable. I have always felt that an essential complement to the free market of having a payment against
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a standard price must be a really bold attempt to effect international stabilisation, within reasonable limits, of the primary producers' products. The only safeguard we have at the moment is in the absolute extremity—namely, when we can persuade the Board of Trade to invoke the provisions of the anti-dumping legislation. Therefore I could not really concede that the tariff of a commodity with such an in elastic demand as bacon has can be really effective unless it is penal; and of course we should have complications from another side of the community in this country if it were penal.
If I wanted justification for that contention it would be—I was going to say, the almost innumerable pig muddles we have suffered over the ages. Certainly we had one in 1957, and the tariff of 10 per cent. certainly did not save us from the pig muddle then and the chaos that existed. I recall having to leave a much-anticipated holiday very quickly to go over to Denmark to try to negotiate with the Danes a system which would at any rate inject some reason into the flow of bacon on to our market. That was despite the 10 per cent. tariff. I believe that that is our key to stability in the bacon industry as such.
We submitted evidence to the Bosanquet Committee on the pig industry and we there contended that the essential complement to the free market and the guaranteed price system was some form of quantitive regulation of flowing on to the whole market, inelastic as it is, so as to avoid the constant upsets and violent fluctuations in price of bacon, which the consumer likes no more than we do. When the scarcity comes and the price goes up, inevitably the consumer pays; whereas the operations of the Bacon Consultative Council, which we created as a forum for the discussion of the flow of imports, have yielded a very good dividend in stabilising the price of bacon to the consumers of this country. So it has not been, and it is not, for the benefit of the producers alone; rather is it infinitely beneficial to the consumers as well if we can inject that stability.
I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, wishes with me to see a greater stability in the pig industry. We were concerned as agriculturalists about the negotiations of the "Outer Seven" free

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trade area, knowing as we do that the proposal to make concessions to the Danes was going to contain the preferred reduction of the 10 per cent. tariff on bacon. We were concerned about it for four major reasons: first of all, because we have never believed we could solve the agricultural problems of Denmark in the United Kingdom alone. We believe it is imperative for her to develop other markets and maintain her traditional markers in Western Europe, so that we are not placed in the position of having unloaded on to the United Kingdom market what she was barred from selling in Western Germany, say, or Italy, or what she was prevented from selling elsewhere, because that could only result in bringing the price of the commodity crumbling down, to no one's benefit.
We knew full well that the impact of the price squeeze that took place in the 1958 Review, which we then contended was too harsh, would result in a reduction in the production of pigs. We were therefore very concerned as to the timing of this operation with Denmark in so far as it caught us with a reduction of production of some 20 per cent., whereas Denmark had already increased her production by some 20 per cent. We were very concerned, and are still very concerned, therefore, to ensure that Denmark's outlets in Western Europe, the countries within the European Economic Community, are sustained. I believe that to be extremely important.
Then we did not want to see the work we had put in as producers in creating the Bacon Consultative Council—and that against a background of a request to Her Majesty's Government to do something of the sort instead of us—brought to nought if, for instance, the concession to Denmark of a 10 per cent. reduction in the tariff of bacon would mean that she was in fact going to take the more dangerous of three possible courses open to her; in other words, to use the whole of that money the more effectively, so to speak, to compete and undermine the whole price fabric of bacon in this country. I personally believe that Denmark is not so foolish as to resort to that particular course.
Another course open to her is to pass the whole of the £6½ million equivalent of the 10 per cent. tariff which she is no longer going to have to pay back to her
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own producers. That would be all right if it did not engender expanding production to a rate the market could not absorb, either in the United Kingdom or in the countries of Western Europe or, in deed, in the United States of America, where she has very prudently been opening up her markets.
I suppose that she will take the middle course and use some of the money available to her from this source to increase the reward to her own producers, on the one hand, and to develop her markets by improved marketing technique on the other. At least I hope she has more sense—and I believe she has—than to use it purely to exploit and have a vicious price war in the markets of the United Kingdom.
The other reason why I was concerned was that there is this great distinction which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, draws, between the producer of pigs for bacon and the producer of pigs for other markets. The technique of pricing, the pricing mechanism, I confess at the outset is extremely complicated. That is why experts are needed to negotiate with the Government in the process of working them out. It is extremely complex, and we have sought to devise ways and means of easing the pressure and sustaining the help for the bacon-pig producers as compared with the others, by maintaining a level of quality premiums and by having a separate accounting system for pigs that are cured into bacon against the stabilising limits, which is this complicated technique. It is not in fact a minimum price system, but the method of computing the average market return against the stabilising limit. I believe that if we are going to sustain the bacon-pig industry in this country, the specialist bacon-pig industry, particularly those who are catering for the Wiltshire cure, then we may have to look even further at: this problem of particular payment for them, without insulating them against all the impact of markets—because otherwise we might be bolstering up something which in fact the consumer does not necessarily want.
Now the Minister of Agriculture has given us several assurances. The first assurances were negative—that this would not be done and that that would not be done. I should like to remind the House of them, if your Lordships will bear with me. The first was that the Government

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would not take into account, when fixing guaranteed prices for pigs after the Annual Price Review, either the loss of revenue to the Exchequer arising from the removal of the tariff on bacon, or the reduction in the market price caused by the tariff change. That was certainly an assurance which was welcomed by the industry; but we have contended that it did not go as far as was necessary to redress the downtrend in the breeding herds. He went on with a further assurance, saying:
"There is nothing in the Agreement…which provides for compensation in our market for any possible diversion of trade with Western Germany or other members of the E.E.C."
That is a prudent assurance which he should give the industry—that we are not to create automatically in this country a market for what was denied, perhaps, to the Danes by the Western Germans because in fact they were associating themselves with the Outer Seven. That is very encouraging. Then he said:
"There is nothing in the Agreement…which limits the Government's right to take account of all the relevant factors at the annual review"—
again, a very helpful assurance. Finally:
"The Government have no intention what soever of doing anything which will conflict with their obligations to home farmers."
Those were assurances, which, on the face of it, were of a negative nature; and I believed it was absolutely vital that the industry should be reassured so that the downtrend in pig-breeding would be halted. And the Minister in another place in fact gave the assurance which Lord Silkin has already referred to in the House; that there would be no change downwards in the price at the next Price Review, and that the precise price would be determined after examination of all the relevant factors. Thank heaven that can only mean revision upwards, if revision there is at all! But the reassurance given in the Minister's remarks about production ought also to go some way to help the pig producers to realise that it would be fatal to go out of business and therefore give the market on a plate to our competitors overseas. At the same time, I feel that we must encourage the producers in the belief that they will not be let down by having a cut-back in the price because they show inclinations to expand. That sort of positive lead is, I
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believe, vital if the pig industry is to play its full part in the national well-being.
There is one final word that I should like to say to your Lordships, and that is with regard to the bacon industry as such. Quite frankly, I do not despair, as some people do, of our ability to compete with the Danish product. There have been very definite technological changes going on in the curing industry in this country. For instance, we have here the benefit of 52 million consumers on our doorstep. I believe that it is necessary for the pig-curing industry, for the pig-processing industry, to be always conscious of that, and to be able to move, with flexibility, between the fresh pork market and the bacon-curing market as the markets dictate and demand. One of the interesting things has been the development of the manufacturing processing business in this country. What we are told is that the impact of the television knee-tray has caused a change in consumer habit and demand, because the husband does not want to turn his back on the television in order to sit up to the table for dinner, and the wife does not want to go into the kitchen to prepare it. So they have it pre-prepared; and pre-packaging has helped to develop the manufacturing business so far as pig meat is concerned. It might be said by some people that we have for too long worshipped at the altar of what we call the Wiltshire cure, and that a greater versatility within the industry is called for. I believe that the enlightened curers are already moving steadily in that direction; and if they develop the technique of curing in the pre-pack, then the competitive advantage which may have been held by the Danes will be by no means as great—that is, if those technological advances proceed at the pace which would be apparent from my own knowledge and experience of the trade. I believe, therefore, that if we can first attain, and then maintain, the stability which the pig industry needs so much, it will yet have a tremendous contribution to make to our national well-being.
6.27 p.m.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, it is my very pleasant privilege to be the first to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, on his quite remark able maiden speech. I am sure I am

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speaking for all noble Lords who have had the privilege of hearing him when I say how much we enjoyed it, and how much we hope that in the future he will speak to us frequently, not only on agricultural matters, but on other, wider, issues.
We also owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for the very moderate speech which he made; and I must say that I found it most interesting. While I had slight qualms about the phraseology he used on the Order Paper, I thought his speech did a lot to rectify this. I was particularly interested in his suggestion that the Government might be encouraged to make it a condition of this Agreement that we should be able to import some Danish Landrace pigs. I fully support him on that point, and I am sure it would go a long way towards helping our bacon industry. I think it is a pity that he has worded his Motion in quite such a narrow way. I feel it is rather like eating the skin of an orange and throwing away the inside; for, as I think we all realise, the Danish Agreement as such does not benefit this country to the extent that it might do. It is part of a scheme to form an Outer Seven free trade area, and for this reason we have had to concede (as I think it might be described) some points to Denmark in order to get our way with the other countries.
This Agreement is going to cost the Exchequer some £6½ million in loss of tariff alone, not to mention the increased cost of the subsidy; and for it we are, on the face of it, as I think everyone agrees, receiving very little. But for the Outer Seven to be a success, it was essential to get Denmark in, since her ties with the other Scandinavian countries are so close that we should not have been able to get them to join unless we had come to some form of agreement with Denmark. Ninety per cent. of Denmark's exports to the United Kingdom are agricultural, and if she was going to throw open her borders to our industrial and manufactured goods, I think she had a right to expect us to make some concession with regard to her agricultural products. Futher, I feel that the removal of the tariff on bacon was a concession that we could well afford to make, because, on the whole, bacon is not a big Common-
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wealth produce, and it would not upset to any marked degree our system of Imperial Preferences with the Commonwealth. In a general Agreement of this kind, it is obviously impossible for everyone to benefit, and no doubt among the sufferers will be industries; such as the paper-making industry.
The words of the Motion are that
"…disastrous consequences…will result to the pig industry in this country if the proposed withdrawal of the duty of ten per cent. on the import of Danish bacon and pig meat takes place; "
I feel that I cannot agree at all with the words of the Motion. I should declare some small interest, in that I am a farmer, though I am not a pig farmer as such. There seem to be three reasons why pig farmers are worried about first the reduction and then the eventual elimination of the 10 per cent. tariff. They feel that the price of bacon in this country will drop, and therefore the price they get will eventually drop. They feel that the guaranteed prices of other products may be slashed in order to pay for the increased cost of the subsidy on bacon. They feel that the Danes may try to dump bacon in this country, if the West Germans should cut down on their imports owing to the formation of the Outer Seven free trade area.
The first, I think, is a false fear. The Government have given guarantees that the guaranteed price will not be reduced next year and will not be affected by any increased cost in subsidies. While I think it is probable that the price of bacon will fall, there is a great difference between Danish and English bacon, and I feel that the housewife will go on paying more for English bacon and thereby getting the better quality. Incidentally, this tariff, when introduced in 1956, as the noble Lord, Lord Nether-thorpe, said, was described then by pig farmers as a token affording little protection, and I think he would support that view now. The second fear of prices being slashed is, I think, a slight one. Obviously, the Government will be worried by the increased cost of subsidies, and although they have promised not to take that into account with regard to the bacon guaranteed minimum price, they have not promised, so far as I know, not to take it into account with regard to other farming prices when the next Price Review comes up. I feel that if we had

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an assurance that the extra cost of the subsidy—which will presumably amount to about £6 million, as home bacon production and Denmark's production are much the same—will not be taken out of some of the other agricultural guarantees, it would make us all happier.
Thirdly, on the fear of dumping owing to the loss of the West German market, it seems to me that the Danes should be more concerned about that than us. I was interested to read the other day that Mr. Krag, the Danish Foreign Minister, in introducing this identical tariff agreement in the Danish Parliament, said he had received the assurance of the West German Government that Denmark's trade would not suffer if she joined the Outer Seven. So I feel that it is unlikely that Denmark will suddenly be robbed of her West German market for bacon. Also, Her Majesty's Government made it clear in the course of these negotiations that they were bound by the 1947 and 1948 Agriculture Acts.
There are two other points worth noticing. The number of pigs produced has been falling for two years, and of this falling number only one-third now goes for bacon. The rest go to the less exacting, but equally profitable, pork and processing markets, which have grown enormously in the last three or four years, as the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, said. I feel that if the amount of bacon going through the curing stations falls—I should like to make it clear that I do not know how it affects the curing stations at all; I know nothing about them—it would be due more to this trend continuing than to the effect of tariff removal. The demand for bacon is also very in elastic, and even the smallest increase in production tends to depress the price unduly. I think that the Danes fully realise this, and that they would much rather keep the price at its present level and make a profit from what they sell, than try to flood our market with cheap Danish bacon and make a loss. Like our own bacon farmers, they are working at the moment on a very slender profit margin. I do not think it is in their interests to try to cut the price of bacon to such an extent that their profit margins are virtually nil.
To sum up, I think that the Government have done all they can to reduce
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the blow of this necessary step, providing one accepts the formation of the Outer Seven free trade area. I think that their undertakings about the guaranteed price, and about not taking into account the loss in tariffs and the increase in subsidy in the price of bacon, are very satisfactory; and if they could say also that they would not take into account the increased subsidy on bacon when fixing other guaranteed prices, I think that it would make us all more happy. I feel, therefore, that the Government are to be congratulated on these negotiations and on not losing sight of the wood for the trees.
6.37 p.m.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, I should like to be the second to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, on his immensely powerful and informative maiden speech, and to take this opportunity to say how glad the agricultural industry is to have such a powerful spokesman in your Lordships' House. I trust that he will make many more speeches in the furtherance of agriculture. I read the other day that when the then Lord Herbert was asked what his reaction was to addressing your Lordships' House, he replied "It was like addressing sheeted tombstones by moonlight." I only hope that the same will not be said by the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe.
I should like briefly to draw your Lordships' attention to two points. The first is the present guaranteed price system. If the Minister really intends to instil confidence into this at present tottering industry, the bacon industry, he should not only state that the present support prices will remain; he should also guarantee a margin of return to the producers. As the importation of Danish bacon will no doubt increase, more and more home producers may well have to rely on these support prices. I should like to suggest the following possible alternatives. First, I would suggest that the Minister should either raise the present guaranteed price to secure a just return to producers; or secondly—which I feel the more likely alternative—he should do away with the various classes of grading and replace them with just grades A and B. Grade A should be set at a standard of carcase quality at which a reasonable return above the cost of production would be

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guaranteed to the producer. Grade B would be any carcase below the standard but within the limit eligible for guaranteed price at the moment. I feel that this would reassure producers of a safe market and also encourage the standard of efficiency so much required.
The last point I should like to deal with is that of the small producers, who are the most vulnerable of all in this industry. It appears that bacon producers can be divided into three classes: first, the large producers, who have sufficient resources to ride most storms; secondly, the speculators, who appear to be moving out of the industry pretty rapidly at this moment; and lastly, the small producers. Since the pig industry lends itself to intensive farming, it is natural that the small men should form the largest proportion of producers. If the effect of the 10 per cent. tariff forces farmers to rely more on the guaranteed prices, the small farmer has the choice either of selling up, and so losing much of his hard earned capital, or of carrying on and accepting a lower standard of living. Many of these producers sell to the pork trade, so gaining a quick turnover. It is quite possible that, due to an influx of Danish bacon, others will turn to the pork trade, and consequently the pork trade will suffer. I therefore implore the Government to watch this position and to hold to the words of the Minister the other day, that
"no pig producer will lose one penny in consequence of the reduction of the 10 per cent tariff".
6.41 p.m.
LORD BROCKET: My Lords, in racing parlance, I feel very honoured to think that I have a place in the race to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, on his maiden speech. Having been in this House for nearly twenty-five years, I have heard quite a number of maiden speeches, and I must say that I do not think I have ever heard a more powerful or effective one than Lord Netherthorpe's. It gives me great pleasure to congratulate the noble Lord on that speech. But his fame is much wider than in this House, because about a week ago I was having a lot of trouble with my telephone and I was receiving wireless broadcasts on it by mistake. I live near Brookman's Park. The noble
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Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, happened to ring me on the telephone, and while I was talking to him the religious broadcaster on the wireless started saying:
"We like sheep have gone astray."
They must have realised that the noble Lord was telephoning in the district.
To come to the Motion before us this afternoon, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, is not right in thinking that there may be disastrous consequences. I know that he, like myself and many others, produces pigs, or, at any rate, rears pigs for sale, and we none of us want disastrous consequences. But I feel that we must try to analyse this question of the consequences. One consequence will be—and it may or may not be disastrous—that the taxpayer will have to find the £7 million or thereabouts represented by this 10 per cent., which presumably has been found in some other way up to now.
In June, 1931, I fought a by-election, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, has reminded us this afternoon, the policy then was: Britain first, the Empire (as it was called in those days) second and foreign countries third. After that, in 1932, the Ottawa Agreements which largely depended on tariffs, were brought into operation. Tariffs now seem to be an unpopular form of dealing with these matters. On the other hand, there is quite a lot to be said for them even now, and the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, said (and I use his words) that "the trading policy of this Government has been more liberal than that of any of its predecessors" I think that that is quite true. It rather worries me whether we may not have rushed into this removal of the 10 per cent. tariff rather too quickly. I know that if you are dealing politically or in business with astute politicians or astute business men—and I think I can classify the Danes as being astute politicians and astute business men—you have to be most careful, and I hope it is not the case that we have rushed into this too quickly. I feel that when negotiating in these matters one probably has to go rather more slowly and put up more of a fight than it appears Her Majesty's Government have put up on this occasion.
Noble Lords seem to have been declaring their interests this afternoon.

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As I have already said, I am a pig producer in this country; but I am also a farmer in Ireland, particularly in milk, beef and arable crops. At the present time I have no pigs in Ireland, because, quite frankly, the position there has been somewhat doubtful and rather difficult. But I should like to say a word or two about Ireland as being affected by the British market in pigs, and also by the removal of this 10 per cent. duty. It must have a deleterious effect upon Irish imports into this country of pig-meat, and that may make Ireland less prosperous and will perhaps have a resultant effect on Irish imports into this country of store cattle, on which we depend to a considerable extent. In that connection, I have a herd of roughly 350 cattle in Ireland, and I have lately become attested, as other farmers are trying to do, in order to keep the market for store cattle. I hope that the attestation scheme—or the accreditation scheme, as it is called—will go ahead and be completed as soon as possible, although it is only right to say that in this country it took nearly thirty years to get to the position which we have now achieved. In that case, also, I am being instrumental in hoping to have a new mart (your Lordships will know what that means) on my estate for attested cattle only, and those cattle will be sent straight to the ships and to Britain without any chance of infection.
In 1958 Ireland was; the second largest European exporting country to this country; and before 1958 the Republic of Ireland was the first country. In 1958 Britain exported £109 million worth of goods to Ireland, and, incidentally, imported from Ireland £109 million worth of goods—in other words, pound for pound. Western Germany, in 1958, exported to this country £123 million worth of goods, and, therefore, beat Ireland in that year, although Ireland had been the premier country for the export of British goods before that. I hope that that will not all suffer owing to this agreement, and I trust that the negotiations which are going on between the Irish and the British Governments will be successful for both countries. But I have great fears, as I have said before, of this 10 per cent. cut in the tariff.
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I do not intend to say much more, but I would say that farmers, as the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, will know, are not like sheep who go astray. But they are like sheep in one way, and that is that when they know of a good thing, they follow it. You can always get farmers to go in for broilers, pigs, wheat, barley or whatever you like by weighting the price a little. They will go to the market and meet their fellow farmers, as I do; and certain pig buildings I know have now been converted into broiler houses in order to make profits out of broilers. If this happens, and if confidence among farmers is broken by such an event as the removal of this 10 per cent. duty, you will find that they will go out of pigs and into broilers as quickly as possible, and you will lose your production of pigs in this country. That is why I think confidence is absolutely essential. I only hope that if the Government, and particularly the Minister of Agriculture, have not already done all they can to restore the confidence which may be shaken by the removal of this duty, they will do so.
It has always been said that pigs are either muck or money. That may be a Yorkshire expression, where the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, comes from—it sounds very much like it—but it is a fact. The ups and downs of the pig industry have never really been conquered by marketing schemes, tariffs, guaranteed prices or anything else. You always seem to have this up and down in pigs, and the fact that they breed quickly and have large litters seems to make those ups and downs even steeper than they would be otherwise. Therefore it is essential, from the point of view of this country and of pig production in this country, that every confidence shall be given to the pig industry. For that reason I think it is an excellent thing that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has brought forward this Motion to-day; and I am glad he has used the word "disastrous", because I hope that the Government will be able to assure us that there will be no disaster.
6.50 p.m.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, if this debate has served no other purpose it has given us, as my noble friend Lord Brocket said, a most remarkable maiden speech from the noble Lord, Lord

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Netherthorpe. Between us, the noble Lord, Lord Brocket, and I have been Members of both Houses of Parliament for quite a long time, and I think it was certainly the most remarkable maiden speech that I can remember. I hope the noble Lord will talk to us a great deal on other subjects besides agriculture. I know that he is an expert on agriculture, but I have always had a suspicion that he is an expert on a good many other things as well.
I am not going to detain your Lordships for any length of time at this late hour. As both the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, and my noble friend Lord Brocket indicated, you cannot fairly see this Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, purely in the context of pigs. I shall spend a brief period in the sty, but I must get out of it for a moment or two at the beginning and the end, because it really has to be seen, if we are to take a sane and reasoned view, against the background of our whole trade policy with regard to Europe. In my submission, that has been rather a sad story ever since the war. As some of your Lordships know, I was a member of the Council of Europe for ten years, and we had a great chance of taking the lead in the development of a reciprocal trade in Western Europe, of which we were at the end of the war the undisputed leader, and I think we missed it.
At the end of the war productive capacity was at a low ebb. The coordination of investment plans and the division of labour and specialisation would have raised productivity and greatly benefited the under-developed countries in the world. We did not touch any of it. At the time of the Marshall Plan we would not even consider planned international investment on a large scale. We refused even to participate in the discussions which led to the formation of the Iron and Steel Community; and, finally, we rejected what became known as the Strasbourg Plan, which directly affected agriculture and was designed to harness the industrial resources of Western Europe to the raw material resources of associated overseas territories, and by providing assured markets for both, to expand the production and trade of the whole. Also included were what the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, has referred to as international
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commodity schemes which, if they had been put into operation at the time, would have been of enormous benefit, not only to this country but to agriculturists all over the world. For this policy of insulation—and I can only call it that—both Labour and Conservative Governments since the war have been responsible. We have paid a heavy price. The Common Market Treaty, for example, is an inevitable consequence. It came to Her Majesty's Government as a great shock, just as the equally inevitable rejection of the E.D.C. Treaty did. Once again they had to hustle, and this time they hustled into the proposal for a Western European Free Trade Area without giving sufficient consideration to the practical difficulties involved.
Now we have this projected European Trade Association, the Seven-Power Association, which is really the main subject of the Motion, between Britain, Scandinavia, Austria, Switzerland and Portugal. I myself think this is much more hopeful and much more practical. As one of your Lordships has already pointed out, the total imports of these seven countries amount to £3,000 million a year, and our exports to them to £350 million. This is not far short of the Common Market total of imports; so the opportunities of expansion are very great and we all stand to gain on them. Somebody, of course, may have to suffer a little. I was amused by the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, speaking from the Liberal Benches earlier to-day, who complained bitterly of the fact that the paper importers, I think it was, might have to suffer from any form of free trade. This was from the Liberal Benches! The Liberal idea of free trade is that nobody should suffer at all. That is the great Liberal idea—that if you have free trade it is fine, so long as nobody suffers at all, except the other chap. Unfortunately, that, is not a practical proposition: somebody has to suffer a little.
I do not think—and I say this perfectly sincerely, as one who represented an agricultural constituency in another place for 34 years—that pig producers in this country are going to suffer as gravely as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggested. After all, they are still protected by the guaranteed price. The deficiency payment on a seven-score pig is running to-day at just over £3, and if

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the pig is a good quality baconer there is an additional bonus of 3s. a score, which increases the deficiency payment to over £4. I do not think—and I am sure the Minister may give some reassurance on this score—that the Minister's statement that he would not alter this deficiency payment at the next Annual Review applies merely to the year 1960. I believe it was intended as a general guarantee, as an assurance to pig producers in this country as a whole that, by and large, without committing himself to a specific figure, the guaranteed price to the pig producers of this country would be maintained at its present level.
I should like to ask noble Lords on the Opposition side of the House this question. Why should not the British housewife have the advantage of Danish bacon, which is jolly good bacon, at a slightly cheaper price? I do not think it is going to undermine our own pig producers, and I think we should remember that for about a century Danish pig production has been geared to the British market. The noble Lord himself said that the Danish landrace pig was the best bacon pig in the world. We know it is. That, I think, is one thing we might try to get out of this Agreement. If only we could get our hands on that Danish landrace pig we should do pretty well. If we could persuade the Danes to let us have some of them in exchange for this abolition of the 10 per cent. tariff, that would be worth doing, because they are pretty careful not to let it go to anybody else.
Nevertheless, I still think that if the pig producers of this country are given the guarantees which have been promised by Her Majesty's Government, we ought to allow the British housewife to have Danish bacon at a reasonable price, and I am slightly astonished at the reluctance of the leaders of the Labour Party to accept that fact. When I heard the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, speaking, I wondered what the late Lord Snowden, who was the most adamant free-trader I have ever known, would have thought of what he was saying. I cannot think he would have approved in any shape or form. He was for free trade right out almost to the end. Whoever suffered, went down. He was no partial free-trader, like the noble Viscount. Lord
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Elibank. He was no free-trader who believed that nobody should be hurt. He was for free trade with the maximum amount of hurting to everybody concerned all round.
Under the 1947 and 1957 Acts the farmers are protected, as I know the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, will agree, by guaranteed prices; and they are encouraged also by production grants which, in my opinion, should be increased for the small man. I think that is a very encouraging development. But let us be clear on one point. The bacon tariff was introduced in 1956 to give the Exchequer the necessary revenue to offset the subsidy payment to the pig producers. That is why they put on this 10 per cent. tariff. In fixing the guaranteed prices for pigs, Her Majesty's Government have now said that neither the loss of revenue nor the fall in market prices due to the removal of the tariff will in future be taken into account. Therefore, in my submission, we are back where we began, and I suggest that £7 million-odd is a small price for the British taxpayer—not for the producer, but for the taxpayer—to pay for admission to this Free Trade Association.
That being said, I quite agree with what several of your Lordships have pointed out, that it is an illusion to suppose that the economic problems confronting this country can be solved by a mere reduction or abolition of tariffs. It is good so far as it stimulates competitive enterprise, but by itself the mere abolition of tariffs is a negative policy. They are only one part of the arsenal of economic weapons, and common policies in wider fields are their necessary counterpart. A little earlier we were talking about the question of the arrangements with regard to fish in connection with this Seven Power Agreement. If, for example, we could get agreement about the conservation of fish in the North Sea, that in itself would be a tremendous step forward as part of this general Agreement. I therefore hope that these arrangements will be extended beyond the range of tariff reductions only and beyond the range of the seven countries alone.
Quite frankly, I should like to see the Commonwealth countries brought into this general association at a later stage. We have been careful to safeguard their

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interests in the arrangements that have already been made, but let me give your Lordships one example of the point which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe—I refer to commodity agreements, which I think are so vitally necessary in the world to-day and so much more important, in the long run, than mere reductions in tariffs. Take butter, for example. The world demand for exports of butter is almost equally met by Australia and New Zealand, on the one side, and by Denmark and Holland on the other, while we are the main importers. There have been tremendous fluctuations in the price of butter in recent years, as there have been in the price of bacon. Can you see any argument, therefore, against the regulation by international agreement of supplies of butter to the London market, designed to stabilise prices for the benefit not only of the producers of butter but also of the housewives of this country? I think that is the way we ought to be thinking, and it is because I think this Seven Power Agreement points in that direction that I am so much in favour of it. The adhesion of Switzerland, with her great international reserves, is a tremendous asset and will give us great additional strength, because we must remember that Switzerland has not hitherto adhered to these European organisations, neither to the Common Market nor to the Council of Europe.
I hope we shall move on from this to a relaxation of currency restrictions, perhaps to a more flexible exchange system, to a clearing union designed to help countries in temporary balance-of-payments difficulties, and to planned international investment in underdeveloped countries. Then, and only then, shall we be able to negotiate with the Common Market from a position of strength and heal the present disastrous economic division of Europe into the Six and the Seven. I firmly believe that this Seven Power Agreement will have no less an advantage than that in the long run: that it will enable us to negotiate with the Common Market in Europe an agreement which by ourselves we could never have hoped to do.
I believe that three broad choices confront this country: first of all, a return to the laissez faire multilateral system of the nineteenth century, despite
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the prevailing economic disequilibrium and shortage of liquid reserves in the free world; secondly, a relapse into complete national economic autarchy; thirdly, the creation of new patterns of reciprocal international trade, including not only the reduction of tariffs but international commodity agreements of the kind suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, by means of effective economic co-operation at every level between the various groups of countries. It is because we are at long last embarking on this third and most promising course that I hope that nothing will be done in either House to impede it. I am sure the dangers confronting the pig producers are not so great as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggested, and I am equally sure that the long-term advantages of the proposed arrangements are incalculable.
7.5 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, we are now coming to the end of the second chapter in this discussion, and time is going on, so I do not propose to detain your Lordships for very long. First of all, I want to add my very sincere congratulations to my noble friend, Lord Netherthorpe, for his masterly speech. I endorse everything which the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, said about it a moment ago. We welcome him to this House. We welcome him for his agricultural knowledge, for his character and for his work over many years in the interests of the farming community. I am certain that whatever he tells us in the future will be for the good of the industry, and we on this side of the House, and I think on all sides of the House, will be very pleased whenever he rises to address us.
I do not want to follow the last speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, in what he said, but I was rather intrigued by his reference to the British housewife having what she required. I want to take him up on a little episode which happened to me over the week-end. It was my privilege to be in Cheshire at the All-England school sports, where 2,000 of the pride of our youth were engaged in their athletics and in their competitions. In a small country town in which I was staying, after dinner one evening I walked round to look at the shops. I found one building which I discovered was the divisional headquarters of the Conservative

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Association, with the usual placards of "Living is Better under the Conservatives"; on the other side of the street I looked in a provision shop, and I was astounded to see what the British housewives were expected to eat. In that window were the following tinned goods: Spam, the product of the Republic of Ireland; chopped pork in natural juices, the product of Poland; Danish chopped ham; Ma Ling's ready cooked pork from China (no mention of Formosa, so it must have been from Red China); and sundry tins of meats from America. But if the British housewife was not satisfied with that table array, there were plentiful supplies of Kit-E-Kat.
LORD BOOTHBY: NO herrings?
LORD WISE: No herrings and no snoek.
I want to congratulate my noble Leader on an extraordinarily masterly speech. He spoke from experience and he spoke with conviction. I must judge this settlement entirely from an agricultural standpoint—that, with me, is only natural. I am concerned, as we have all been this afternoon, with the prosperity of our agricultural industry, with restoring the confidence which it is losing and with establishing a better stability. With regard to the Agreement, it has been suggested by one or two speakers to-day that the timing has been inopportune. I am wondering why there has been such a hurry. I should have thought that it was right and proper that a change which is going to create great difficulties within our primary industry should have been the subject of some discussion in both Houses before the Government decided to enter into this Agreement. Apparently, the thing is an accomplished fact, and all we can do now is to examine the statement and assess its implications; and its probable results on our pig-breeding industry.
First of all, I want to refer in the presence of the President of the National Farmers' Union to some reactions created by this settlement in his own Union Only yesterday I received a copy of my local paper, which is not unknown to Lord Amherst of Hackney opposite. There I saw that various well-known farmers in the district, pig producers and others, were showing a good deal of
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hesitancy as to the result of this Anglo-Danish pig agreement. May I read a few extracts from the Press cutting? The chairman, who is a large farmer in the district,
"said that he was not impressed by the fair play assurances from the Minister of Agriculture to National Farmers' Union headquarters in London,"
and he went on to say:
"Although we must accept the Government's assurance we should accept it for what it's worth and with concern."
That is a pretty drastic sort of statement to make. According to the cutting, another speaker said that
"undoubtedly this was a very, very serious situation,"
and that
"if the home pig industry did suffer people would no doubt look to other sections of farming for their livelihood."
Well, we shall do that, because we in the farming industry generally show adaptability, and we are rather inclined if we lose on the roundabouts to try to get back on the swings. The same speaker said that
"the Danes want us to get out so that they can get in. It is up to us to fight this job."
That is what we are trying to do to-day on this side of the House. So I could go on, but I do not want to weary the House.
One well-known farmer said that he thought this was a dangerous agreement which had been made; that undoubtedly the Danes would step up their pig production. I have no doubt whatever that with the benefits that they will receive from our markets they will step up production to the detriment of our own products. The Minister and the Government speakers are inclined to refer to the guarantee. I only wish that the guarantee and deficiency payments were in every case paid to the producer. At the present time I believe that that is not a fact. Whether or not the producer receives the full credit for the guarantee is uncertain, and from my own point of view I think that, as in the livestock markets, the producer in the dead weight sales should be in direct contact with the Government for his payment.
LORD BOOTHBY: May I ask the noble Lord one question, because I think it is important? Is it his considered

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opinion that the British housewife should be denied the opportunity of buying first-class Danish bacon at a cheaper price than she gets it to-day? I should like an answer to that question.
LORD WISE: Well, I do not want to deny the British housewife the purchase of first-class Danish bacon; but from my own point of view I would rather have the British housewife buying British bacon. Let me go on with the little episode about which I was speaking a moment ago. Over another shop in the same town, a butcher's shop, there was inscribed "Home cured bacon". That pleased me much more than my looking in at the shop where the foreign goods were on sale.
As noble Lords have already said, there is no doubt that the pig industry in this country has suffered more ups and downs in the past than has any other industry, and I think it is high time that we take whatever steps we can to stabilise it. The statement in regard to the settlement seems to fall far too much on the side of the Danes. I can find no suggestion at all in that settlement of any material benefit other than to Denmark, as indeed the statement says. I personally cannot find that: the British farmer is likely to gain at all. Therefore, I wonder why, in coming to this particular settlement—I take it that it is the first between the countries concerned—British agriculture has been singled out for the first operation. There is no evidence in the settlement that the export trade of this country to Denmark will increase. There is a suggestion that reciprocity will take place, but there is no guarantee at all that the Danes should take our manufactured goods in exchange for the additional agricultural products which will be sent in, not only of bacon but of three other products which are mentioned in the settlement.
LORD BOOTHBY: There is no guarantee on either side. We do not guarantee the Danes.
LORD WISE: It may be that there is no guarantee; but there is no suggestion that these products will not be imported into this country, and under this Agreement when it comes into operation in two years' time I can envisage a good deal of dumping into Britain.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, I must interrupt my noble friend. Equally, there is no suggestion that our products will not be imported into Denmark. That is the object of the whole exercise.
LORD WISE: Well, as we are more or less giving a guarantee to the Danes, I should like to see a similar guarantee from the other side. Now there is a suggestion in the statement in regard to dumping, and I should like to hear from the Minister in his reply that steps will be taken under the appropriate Act—I think it is the 1957 Act—in regard to dumping. Because I feel that unless we can, in some form or another, protect our British farmers against uncertain or increasing importation of products in competition with our own, we shall suffer. I should have liked also to hear from the Government as to what action they have taken in this Agreement in regard to the Commonwealth. There is a reference in it to the fact that the Commonwealth have been notified as to steps taken, but there is nothing to suggest to us that the Commonwealth are in accordance with the terms which have been agreed with Denmark. I hope the views of the Government as to the effect upon British agriculture will be expressed. They will no doubt tell us that we shall not suffer in regard to our products. I hope that may be so: but personally I view the Agreement with a great deal of, not perhaps suspicion, but uncertainty, and I hope that my fears and the fears of the agricultural community will not come to pass.
7.22 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE): My Lords, I am sure all of us are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for having raised this matter to-day and for the extremely interesting debate we have had on the high level one would expect from this House when farming is being talked about. It gives me an opportunity of saying what I wanted to say in this House: that the Government want to see a stable and efficient pig industry in this country and are confident that the removal of the tariff will not prejudice this objective. I nearly forgot—because, as an "also ran", to use Lord Brocket's racing parlance, I should like to say my

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own word about the great maiden speech we have heard. I was searching for adjectives. I thought of "massive", "masterly", "powerful"; but for me it was helpful, and that was the adjective I settled on.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in his very closely-argued opening speech really was too pessimistic to my mind. I should declare an interest. He and I have one thing in common: we both produce a large number of pigs. We have more than one thing in common——
LORD SILKIN: We both make a loss.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: But I do not share his pessimism in this matter and I fear very much that the terms of his Motion may rock the mutual boat we are both in, and I am not happy about that. I think he said "No pig farmer is able to get a reasonable return on his capital or reasonable personal reward unless he can absolutely beat the standard price." I am sure that that is a great exaggeration. He cannot live on the minimum. Lord Netherthorpe, with greater expertise than I can hope to have, went into the guaranteed price and the minimum price and I will not do that again. The other point is that Lord Silkin is over-pessimistic in his whole concept. You cannot say in one breath, as the noble Lord said, that British farming is one of the most efficient in the world and then go on to say that we can never beat the Danes at farming.
It would be a great help to get imports of the Landrace pig but I do not think we can do that in the near future. But I am quite sure he was over-pessimistic in saying there is no hope against the Danes. We have good dairy farmers who can feed whey and skimmed milk to pigs. We are all agreed that the establishment of the Outer Seven Trade Area holds out great opportunities for the country, and we know that we cannot work in isolation here or leave agriculture out. We sincerely hope that this Free Trade Area of the Seven may be the bridge to even wider associations. Noble Lords will have ample opportunity to state their views on this subject in next week's debate when the noble Earl, Lord Swinton moves his Motion. I think that some of the points of the noble Lords, Lord Brocket and Lord Boothby, will no doubt be raised again by them and others in that debate.
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One point I want to stress to-day is that to achieve this Outer Seven Free Trade Area we had to have bilateral discussions with the Danes. They are not an industrial nation; they are primarily an agricultural exporting country. Sixty per cent. of their exports are agricultural and 35 to 40 per cent. come to this country, and there had to be bilateral talks with the Danes. We could not reasonably expect them—and this is the point Lord Wise does not appear to appreciate—to lower tariffs to our industrial goods without coming to an agreement on their agricultural exports. But—and this is the point—we took the utmost care to ensure that the tariff concessions that we were prepared to give were not going to conflict in any way with the obligations we have as a Government with the United Kingdom farmer and, of course, with the Commonwealth. It was because we were able to find a way of doing that that we were able to make an agreement with the Danes. The noble Lord seems to think that the negotiations in Stockholm and with the Danes were to be for the benefit of the other countries. This is a misconception. There are mutual benefits. All of us stand to gain.
What is anyone likely to lose if this bacon tariff is removed? It is certainly going to cost the taxpayer the actual amount of the tariff—about £6¼ million. There may be some additional burden arising from any increase in the Government assistance to our own pig producers. But of this we are confident—as the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, brought out—that the price which the general body of taxpayers has to pay in this matter is going to be far more than offset by the general and increased prosperity that this wider area of free trade association will bring to the whole country. Our pig producers are secure under the long-term guarantees of the 1947 and 1957 Acts, "by which", as we have told the Danes, "we are bound". I think it is important to remember these words. There was no equivocal language used. The words were "by which we are bound" and the Danes agreed and accepted that. It was plain English.
I need not remind your Lordships of the other assurances by the Government given since this agreement, because Lord Netherthorpe gave them in extenso. But I should like to remind your Lordships

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of what the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, said in this House a fortnight ago, because we have to bear it in mind in the context of the whole matter [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 217, col. 955]:
"…the Government will not take into account, in fixing the guaranteed price for pigs, either the loss of revenue to the Exchequer arising from the removal of the tariff on bacon or any reduction in the market price caused by the tariff change,".
That assurance was given in this House. And, my Lords, we really must not confuse the tariff concession to the Danes, which does not come into operation until July, 1960, with the present or prospective level of pig production, which is taken care of by our guaranteed price system. Let us keep this matter in proportion. What are we talking about?—a 10 per cent. reduction of tariff over two years and a Motion that says that disaster will flow from it. I have to say I am sorry that the noble Lord thought it was proper to use such strong language.
Let me take those two points separately. We are not removing a prohibitive tariff wall over which it has not been possible for importers to climb until now. The noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, referred to that point and used the word "penal" tariff. We have not a penal tariff now. The price of bacon in the wholesale market fluctuates. The problem would be simpler if it did not; but we have to face facts. The price fluctuates, and fluctuates by far more, I would tell noble Lords who do not already know it, than 10 per cent. on the wholesale price. We are concerned about this; we do not desire these fluctuations. That is why we have this complicated structure which the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, was telling us about, of the stabilising limits, about which, at this late hour, I am sure noble Lords do not want me to go into detail. But they are a genuine and good attempt and endeavour to meet these undue fluctuations which no one wants to see. Can it be seriously said that in a market which is, unfortunately, used to these very wide fluctuations the removal of a 10 per cent. tariff, which has been in being for only a small number of years, is going to lead to disaster? Notwithstanding all the moderate and mild speeches we have heard this afternoon,
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what may go out of this House is the terms of the Motion on the Order Paper, which is that this 10 per cent. reduction is going to lead to disaster.
That brings me to the second point in the terms of the noble Lord's Motion. It does not express anxiety or doubt about possible ill-effects. Those would have been words I should have welcomed wholeheartedly, because they are reasonable words we can discuss; but it says that disaster will follow. My noble friend Lord Amherst of Hackney, who has had to leave his place, made this point and I was glad that he did; and no doubt the noble Lord will come back to it in his reply. But it is this kind of phraseology that, taken out of its context and used by unscrupulous persons (and there are such persons) or ultra-nervous persons (and there are such) can really do harm and create alarm and despondency. The only real danger I see in all this arrangement and the publicity that has been given to it is that confidence could be undermined. That would lead to a reduction in the breeding herd; and that, in turn, would lead to a reduction in the flow of pigs for the farms, which might be serious.
I do not burke the question. I readily agree that removal of the tariff presents a challenge to the bacon curers, but it is a challenge which I am quite sure they are going to be able to accept. I am not sure that it will be quite so serious as some people would like to make out, because I agree with the noble Lords who have said that it is unlikely that the Danes will take steps to knock the bottom out of their own market. If the market collapses they are going to suffer; they have not such guarantee arrangements as we have; and I think it is much more likely, as the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, said, that the Danes will continue to study the market situation in our country, and throughout the world, through the Bacon Consultative Council, in which they have always worked since its inception. Started largely at the inspiration of the National Farmers' Union, that Council has done most valuable work in exchanging information about market prospects.
We come back to this fact. What the bacon curers want is an adequate supply of pigs. As the removal of the tariff will not affect the price the British farmer

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gets for his pigs, there is no reason why the pigs should not continue to be forthcoming for the curers; and provided they get them there is no reason why they should not retain their share of the market. Noble Lords should bear in mind that the output of the bacon curers is still over 60 per cent. of the maximum that has ever been achieved. We have heard they are working at only 40 per cent. capacity. It is difficult to judge this capicity. It is a statistical matter—what you take into account and how you arrive at it. Admittedly, they have excess capacity, but I am not sure that the industry, on the whole, is not working at rather more than the 40 per cent. to which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, referred. I am sure that these curers will be able to, and will, rise to this challenge.
There is one very good pointer to that. Quite recently they have agreed—90 per cent. of the curers responsible for Wiltshire-cured bacon have agreed—to conform to a new code of practice worked out by the Pig Industry Development Authority. That is a most encouraging fact and your Lordships should know it. If there is a risk to the bacon curers it is that alarmist and pessimistic talk might frighten pig producers out of producing pigs. I must not quote the National Farmers' Union in front of their President, so I should like to quote the Scottish National Farmers' Union, and the Convener of their Pig Committee said, "You must not take cold feet"—or words to that effect—"on this matter." That is the danger, he said. Farmers would then be destroying their own market. So what we have to do is keep this confidence.
I am not at this time going into the detail of the Government fat stock guarantee scheme, but it has been rather misrepresented to-day, and I should just say that we have a standard price for fat pigs, as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, knows perfectly well. That makes good the deficiency. The noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, asked: could we be sure that if the Government had to spend a lot of money on the guaranteed price for pigs, they would not be taking it out of the other moneys that are used in the Price Review balance sheet. It is not true to say, as the noble Duke said, that the cost is £6¼ million. It is more
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likely to be more than that. It might be £10 million. It will be whatever the figure is that has to be found for the guaranteed price of pigs. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that he is ready to face this.
The current cost of all agricultural support at the moment is about £240 million a year. There is nothing fixed in this sum. The total has gone down this year and it may have to go up next year when we come to the Price Review; and I would assure the noble Duke any extra money that has to be found for pig price guarantee will not be at the expense of the guarantee of other livestock or crops. The guarantee just does not work in that way. The standard price of pigs now is 46s. 9d. per score deadweight. This was determined at the last Annual Review and I should like to remind the noble Lord. Lord Silkin—who said nobody could make a living out of pigs—that this last Annual Review was an agreed Review. It was arrived at after consultation with the farmers' unions and was an agreed Review. These guaranteed prices and guarantee arrangements will not in any way be affected by the removal of the tariff on Danish bacon.
LORD NETHERTHORPE: My Lords, would the noble Earl permit me to make one comment on the last statement he made? We in the agricultural community protested most vigorously about the harshness of the Review settlement for pigs in 1958. We felt the impact on the industry would result in a downtrend in production. It is not a case of being wise after the event: events have proved us to be right. To pray in aid, therefore, the fact that the 1959 review was an agreed one is somewhat unfair, because again we protested—and, indeed, asked for redress in that particular direction; but in our balanced and statesmanlike view of the industry, we did in fact agree a settlement. Therefore, I do not think it is fair to use that particular argument.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: I have often wondered what was going to happen when the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, took his seat in your Lordships' House and Price Review matters came up. Now I know. The answer is that we have got to be statesmanlike about this, and I should not pray it in aid.

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The noble Lord can reserve his position on this, but I did not go further than to say—which was perfectly accurate—that, by and large and all in all, this was an agreed Review. It had not been mentioned as such, and I think I was entitled to say that; and the noble Lord was certainly entitled to his interjection.
My Lords, I have tried to make a fair assessment of the present position of the pig industry. I hope you will agree with me that to assert, as is set out in the Motion before your Lordships, that the withdrawal of the bacon tariff would have disastrous consequences for the industry, is really very wide of the mark. The arrangements that we are making do not conflict in any way with our obligations to the farmer, who will continue to have his guarantees. And, as my right honourable friend has already announced in another place, the farmer can now look ahead with the assurance that the standard price for pigs will not be reduced at the 1960 Annual Price Review—except, of course, for any adjustments which would follow automatically from the feedingstuffs formula. This is positive proof that the Government want to see an efficient and effective pig industry in Britain. We believe that farmers can have confidence in pigs; and we hope that they will reject any alarmist talk that they may hear in any quarter.
It was because we had fears of the impact of such talk that the Government gave this assurance about the next Price Review. It really is not good enough to belittle this assurance. For myself, I believe that there is enormous value in this assurance, and there is no doubt that it has been welcomed by pig producers generally. It means, in effect, that there can be no reduction in the guaranteed price for pigs before April 1, 1961—except, as I have said, for adjustment because of the feedingstuffs formula—and this must impart great confidence into the pig market over this period. The first effect of the tariff reduction will probably be felt in July, 1960: so the undertaking now given stretches well beyond that date.
When one considers this assurance, combined with the other most specific undertaking that the taxpayer will accept the full burden of the cost of the removal of the tariff, both as to the value of the tariff itself and any increase in deficiency payments that may result from
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it, then I can surely claim that at no time and in no circumstances have farmers in this country been given such assurances for a commodity, such as pigs, which can fluctuate in terms of supply with such rapidity.
My Lords, I am delighted that we have had such a good debate this evening, and so many speakers. I thank the noble Lords very much for their contributions and for their courtesy in staying to the end of the debate. I have not had time to answer or to refer to all the points that have been raised, and I hope they will not think that there is any discourtesy on my part, because no discourtesy is intended. I must say this to noble Lords on the other side of the House; that we are playing with fire if we use words like those on the paper. Confidence is a tender plant, and confidence, once wilted, is very difficult to revive. The words in the Motion are strong words—I believe unnecessarily strong words—and I very much hope that the noble Lord will see fit to withdraw this Motion in the terms in which it has been put down.
7.45 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, there is so much that has been said this afternoon of a controversial nature that I could well make a second speech and take as long on that second speech as I did on my first. I do not propose to do so, because I am very conscious of the time. I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, as every other noble Lord has done. I feel that we are running short of adjectives, but I hope he will take my congratulations without an adjective as sincerely as they are intended. I should also like to express the welcome of the House, as I am sure we can, to the speeches of the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. We do not hear very much of them, and I can assure them that we welcome the speeches of younger noble Lords. They hear quite enough of the older generation, and it is very refreshing to hear the views of the next or the next but one generation—and that is without prejudice to any views they may have expressed.
I have been asked—and the noble Earl who wound up for the Government repeatedly asked—that I should withdraw the use of the word "disastrous."

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I believe that that word is correct; and I believe it after careful consideration. The situation may turn out better: I sincerely hope it will. But as I see the industry I see it as an industry which is declining at this moment—and it was declining apart from this withdrawal of the tariff. I have known so many people who are going out of bacon production at the present time, and who have done so because they find that it is no longer profitable, despite the guarantee. My feeling is that this withdrawal of the duty is the last straw; and if we do take the view that we want a live and flourishing bacon industry, then it certainly is the last straw.
I am not arguing—and I want to say this to the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, in particular—that we should not do this. On the contrary, I think that the Common Market is a good thing—subject, of course, to hearing more details about it I think that in principle it is a good thing; and I started off my speech by saying that I was speaking on the assumption that it is a good thing. I said that we had to do something about the Danes, and I thought this was the only possible thing we could do to bring them in. But the whole burden of my speech was that it would be wrong to sacrifice one section of the community; and I think the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, was a bit complacent about sections of the community suffering for the benefit of the rest. We do not do things like that in this country. If it were a minor sacrifice, that would be one thing. But if we are going to deprive a section of the community of their livelihood, which I think is what is going to happen—I may be wrong—then I say that we ought not to accept that complacently, and that we should see that one section does not suffer for the benefit of the rest. I
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am sure that nobody who accepts my premises would tolerate sacrificing the bacon producers in order to make a good Common Market agreement.
There is one other thing. The noble Lord, Lord Boothby, has tempted me with a speech which was in fact made at the wrong time and on the wrong occasion. He will have his opportunity of making that speech again on Tuesday: but he did ask me what Lord Snowden would have thought. Honestly, I do not know.
LORD BOOTHBY: I do.
LORD SILKIN: I do not, because Lord Snowden continued to be a member of a Government which in 1932 imposed tariffs. He himself departed from free trade; and as to what Lord Snowden would have done in present conditions I think it would be impertinent for me to hazard a guess. I do not myself think that the imposition of a duty is the best way of protecting a market: I would not have recommended it. But the duty being there, I certainly think that the abolition of the duty is going to damage the industry. I do not want to detain your Lordships any longer. As I say, this is a subject we could debate at much greater length, but I think that we have had the case put and I propose to exercise great restraint in not pursuing the matter. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

BOOTLE CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to with Amendments: the said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
House adjourned at nine minutes before eight o'clock.