Sitting of 21 January 1959

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PETITION (COTTON INDUSTRY)
Mr. J. T. Price: With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I rise to present a Petition on behalf of over 1,000 of my constituents resident in the small township of Horwich in Lancashire or working in the textile industry in that town.
The Petition re-emphasises the grave anxieties of Lancashire, as expressed in many similar Petitions submitted to this House in the present Session of Parliament assembled. It draws attention to the serious and continued decline in the textile manufacturing industry which was hitherto the mainstay of Lancashire and the cornerstone of Britain's commercial pre-eminence in the world.
It recites the circumstances in which the former export trade of this country has been eroded by foreign competition and in which the home trade has been detrimentally affected by the ever-increasing flow of cheap imports from Commonwealth and other countries where standards of living are low.
Your Petitioners complain that the prices at which such goods can be sold in this country represent unfair competition with which the Lancashire industry is unable to compete.
The Petition concludes:
Wherefore, your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House will take action without delay to limit the import of cheap textiles produced under unfair competitive conditions and will devote itself to saving the cotton towns of Lancashire from becoming derelict by taking prompt action to stimulate and revive the cotton industry.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  POST OFFICE

    Stamps (Design)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that each of the 10s., 5s. and 2s. 6d. stamps in Great Britain depicts a Royal castle beside the head of Her Majesty the Queen; and if he will authorise the issuing of a guinea stamp depicting the birthplace of Robert Burns beside the head of Her Majesty.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Kenneth Thompson): The Answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes, Sir," and to the second part "No, Sir."
    Mr. Hughes: Does not the Assistant Postmaster-General realise that that makes no contribution to artistic taste, that many realms in the British Commonwealth and various foreign countries show much more artistic taste in their selection, choice and design of postage stamps and that his regional stamps take not a step in that direction? Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider the Answer he has given and do something about it?
    Mr. Thompson: I am not sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman is quite fair in his description of the new regional stamps which have, in fact, been received with a good deal of approval both in Scotland and elsewhere. I am sorry that I cannot add anything further to what I have already told the House about the use of stamps in this country for commemorating individuals.
    Mr. Ross: If the Assistant Postmaster-General cannot commemorate the bicentenary of Robert Burns in this way, does he not think it a good idea to have a plaque of the Postmaster-General placed in St. Giles's Cathedral?

    Offices, Stoke-on-Trent
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Postmaster-General what further consideration has been given to the Post Office facilities in the city of Stoke-on-Trent since the visit to the city of the Assistant Postmaster-General; what action is intended; and what are the future prospects, with special reference to the outlying new housing centres.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Since my visit a new sub-post office has been opened in New-stead; a temporary one has been opened in Ubberley to serve until a new Crown Office building is completed; the public office at Tunstall has been rebuilt; and the delivery office at Longton extended. We intend to extend the public office at Longton, and both the public office and the sorting office at Burslem. We shall, of course, continue to keep a close watch on the needs of the new housing estates as they develop.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: While I appreciate what has taken place since the Assistant Postmaster-General visited the city, will he bear in mind that we are very concerned about the lack of facilities at Meir and put that on record so that it can be given top priority?
    Mr. Thompson: I do not think I am in any doubt at all about the opinion of hon. Members and others concerning these facilities at Meir. Our own inquiries, including those which I carried out personally, lead me to believe that the services at present provided are adequate by modern standards.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Postmaster-General if he will make a statement on the prospect of a new central post office for the city of Stoke-on-Trent; when the new building will be completed; and whether he will ensure that all modern ideas are introduced and the conveying of mail bags is arranged by conveyors to and from the trains.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Negotiations are well advanced for a new site in Station Road, across the road from the present Post Office building. We plan to provide new public office facilities, as well as a modern sorting office, a postal garage and workshop. Planning is still at an early stage, as is the study of the arrangements for conveying mails to and from the station. A definite timetable for the scheme cannot be fixed just yet.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Will the Assistant Postmaster-General bear in mind that we have been very patient and that I was promised this before the war? Having regard to that patience, will he now treat this as a matter of urgency and ask his right hon. Friend to view it as a pilot scheme and introduce all modern devices to make it the most efficient in the country?
    Mr. Thompson: I am aware of the somewhat tortuous progress that these negotiations have followed over the years. I think that the hon. Gentleman knows most of the reasons for that. We will do all that we can to see that this office is brought into use as soon as possible and as efficiently as possible.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Postmaster-General if he will arrange for full consultations between his staff, the Ministry of Works, British Railways and the city of Stoke-on-Trent so that the most modern layout possible shall be made for the area leased by British Railways and at present occupied by the Post Office, and the site to be taken over for the new central post office near Stoke station.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Yes, Sir.

    Christmas Traffic
    Mr. Spriggsasked the Postmaster-General if he will make a statement about the traffic dealt with by the Post Office during the Christmas period 1958; and how the figures vary, so far as St. Helens is concerned, in each department for the years 1955, 1956, 1957, and 1958.
    Mr. K. Thompson: As the full answer contains rather a lot of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The broad picture is that letters and cards and telephone trunk calls were up this year and telegrams were down, both throughout the United Kingdom and St. Helens.
    Mr. Spriggs: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we appreciate the facilities which he gave for hon. Members of this House to visit their constituency post offices during the Christmas period? I should like, through the hon. Gentleman, to thank the postmaster at St. Helens and his staff for the good work which they have done for the people of St. Helens.
    Mr. Thompson: I am grateful to the hon. Member for the expressions contained in his supplementary question.
    Following are the figures:
    It is estimated that 866 million letters and cards were posted in the United Kingdom during the busy period from 13th December to 2nd January as compared with 822 million the year before. The numbers posted at St. Helens for the Christmas periods 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1958 were 1·56 million, 1·64 million, 1·61 million and 1·63 million, respectively.

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    No reliable estimates can be given for parcels, but the figure for the country as a whole for Christmas 1958 is probably about 28½ million.
    The estimated numbers of inland telegrams handled in the same periods were 857 thousand in 1958, and 906 thousand the previous year. The numbers accepted at St. Helens in 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1958 in the busy Christmas period were 1,445, 1,204, 913 and 805, respectively.
    The estimated numbers of inland trunk calls made in the same periods were 21 million in 1958 and 19 million the previous year. The numbers made at St. Helens in 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1958 were 19·1, 27·4, 28·1 and 30·3 thousands, respectively. The increase of the 1956 figure over that for 1955 was in part due to a change in the arrangements for handling trunk calls in St. Helens exchange.

    Portobello, Midlothian (Address)
    Mr. Willisasked the Postmaster-General what representations he received asking that the address Portobello, Midlothian, be changed; and what evidence he has received expressing satisfaction with the proposed new address.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Ever since Portobello became part of the city of Edinburgh in 1896, there have been periodic requests for the name of the city to be included in its address. I have received letters welcoming the change, which has also been supported by letters in the Press: both the city corporation and the local post office advisory committee approve the change.
    Mr. Willis: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, in spite of what he says, there is very strong opposition to the loss of this historic name? Very few people think that it will add to the efficiency of the service, and the vast majority think that this is just another case of unnecessary Bumbledom.
    Mr. Thompson: I have no reason whatever for thinking that that is a widely held opinion, and certainly it would be untrue if it were held in that form. There is no reason at all why the name Portobello should disappear. We would, in fact, rather welcome it if it appeared together with the district number of Edinburgh on the correspondence. There will be, in fact, an increase in efficiency and a saving in cost as a result.

    Robert Burns Bicentenary
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Postmaster-General what new steps he is taking to enable the Post Office to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the birth of Robert Burns.
    Mr. K. Thompson: I am glad to be able to tell the hon. Member that special arrangements have been made to meet requests for mail posted in Alloway on 25th January to be postmarked "Alloway Ayr". People living away from the district may send under cover to the Head Postmaster, Head Post Office, Ayr, fully stamped and addressed envelopes for date-stamping and posting at Alloway on 25th January. The cover should be endorsed "Burns Bicentenary" and should be posted in time to arrive at Ayr by Saturday, 24th January. I hope the hon. Member will feel that we have tried to be as helpful as we could about the 200th anniversary of Robert Burns' birth.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that this mean and miserable so-called commemoration is utterly inadequate, and would he, if he cannot publish a Burns stamp, allow us to use Russian stamps and send them to Alloway to be posted? Is he aware that his actions contrast very strongly with those of the United States Government and that the United States Information Service is telling us what Washington is doing about the Burns bicentenary? Is he not ashamed to come here with that paltry excuse?
    Mr. Thompson: Thank goodness I am not answerable for what the United States postal authorities do. I do not intend to allow the provocative attitude of the hon. Gentleman to force me to withdraw this arrangement.

    Residential Accommodation (Rents)
    Mrs. Jegerasked the Postmaster-General how many units of residential accommodation are owned by the Post Office; in how many cases the rent of the tenants has been increased; and what steps he, as landlord, has taken to ensure the satisfactory condition of the properties.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Tenancies in residential accommodation owned or leased by the Post Office number about 1,000. In most cases increased rents become payable on 1st March next or at later dates. We have the whole question of the condition of these properties under discussion with the Ministry of Works, who act as our agent in this matter.
    Mrs. Jeger: Can the hon. Member tell the House why his Department issues to tenants demands for rent increases

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    before ascertaining the condition of these properties? Is he aware that some of the properties in my constituency are in such a disgraceful condition that if they had been owned by a private landlord they would have been eligible for a certificate of disrepair? Why is he sheltering behind Crown immunity in this case?
    Mr. Thompson: I have no desire to shelter behind anything. The issue of notices affecting the rents of all these properties, together with a great many owned by other Government Departments, was a very big operation. To have everything moving forward on a number of fronts at the same time is very complicated. Where we find that the condition of the property does not justify the rent increase, or where specific repairs are needed to put the property in good condition, then we will behave as a good landlord should.
    Mrs. Jeger: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Rental Charges (Old People)
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Postmaster-General if he will give consideration to the possibility of reducing telephone rental charges for old people who live alone.
    Mr. K. Thompson: This suggestion has been considered sympathetically on various occasions, but singling out this group specially from among numbers similarly worthy and charging less than the standard prices for their telephone service could not be justified. As my right hon. Friend has said, the resulting short-fall in our revenue would have to be made good by higher charges to our other customers.
    Mr. Robinson: Does not the Assistant Postmaster-General appreciate that to very many of these old people living alone the telephone is the only communication with the outside world, especially to those who find it difficult to get out and about? Does not the hon. Gentleman also appreciate that the cost of this concession would not be very large and that for these people the present rentals are prohibitive in many cases? Will he
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    not give further consideration to the matter?
    Mr. Thompson: I do not dissent from a good deal of what the hon. Gentleman says. Unfortunately, what he says applies to other groups of people who suffer from age or infirmity of one kind or another, and the problem of drawing the line between the deserving and the not so deserving is a very difficult one indeed.

    Accounts, Sheffield
    Sir P. Robertsasked the Postmaster-General what are the figures for receipts and outgoings, respectively, for the last convenient accounting period for the Sheffield telephone area.
    Mr. K. Thompson: I regret that I cannot give these figures because accounts in detailed commercial form are not compiled for individual areas. Many costs are, for operational or accountancy reasons, met centrally.
    Sir P. Roberts: Is my hon. Friend aware that in reply to rather similar Questions he said that he could not give the figures to the House because they were misleading? Is he not therefore trying to mislead the House now in not giving the figures? There must be some sort of accounting of telephone costs in Sheffield. I understand that they are very satisfactory. Cannot he now give them to the House?
    Mr. Thompson: I am sure there is no ill-will in my hon. Friend's suggestion that I am attempting to mislead the House. Such figures as are available are incomplete and, in their present form, would be misleading.

    Kiosks
    Sir F. Medlicottasked the Postmaster-General if, in relation to the new design for telephone kiosks, he will consider the possibility of incorporating in a prominent position in the upper part of each box, on at least two sides, the name of the village, township or district in which the kiosk is situated.
    Mr. K. Thompson: My right hon. Friend is considering this matter and will write as soon as possible to the hon. Gentleman.
    Sir F. Medlicott: Is my hon. Friend aware that many districts, especially villages and suburbs, are very anonymous at night and that a device such as is suggested would be of great help in enabling people, especially motorists, to know where they are and would also secure still further good will to his Department?
    Mr. Thompson: These are among the considerations which we will take into account, but I must remind the House that there are some considerable arguments against the course proposed.

  TELEVISION

    Forward Scatter Stations
    Mr. Masonasked the Postmaster-General if he is now able to make a statement of the dangers to operating personnel of the civil type forward scatter station; and whether a report has now been produced on this problem from the consultations that have taken place between his Department, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and the Medical Research Council.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Some time may elapse before final conclusions are reached as a result of the consultation to which the hon. Member refers. Meanwhile, I have assurances that, at the few civil stations in this country, precautions are taken to ensure that operating personnel are not exposed to high-frequency radiation in a way that might be dangerous.
    Mr. Mason: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the results of these consultations will be made public, and is he now absolutely certain that there are no dangers at all to the public emanating from this civil type forward scatter station?
    Mr. Thompson: I have already answered a Question from the hon. Gentleman about any possible effects upon the public. This Question relates to the effects or possible effects on the operating personnel and my Answer is quite clear. I think that we had better await the report and consider what it contains before we decide whether or not to publish it.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: As there is some apprehension about this matter, will the
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    hon. Gentleman say that as soon as the report is available he will make it available to the House?
    Mr. Thompson: I do not want to give that undertaking until we know what is in the Report. There may be matters of considerable security importance which ought not to be published, and in that case we want to reserve our right to decide in the light of what is in the Report.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Do I understand from that reply that the hon. Gentleman will make known to the House any dangers that may be there which will affect the general public, without disclosing security arrangements?
    Mr. Thompson: My right hon. Friend and I are always pleased to answer any Questions which are put on the Paper.

    Advertisements
    Mr. Mayhewasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that in the Independent Television Authority programme, "This Week," broadcast on 1st January, the remarks of the Chairman of the Federation of Wholesale and Multiple Bakers were interrupted in mid-sentence for the purpose of inserting advertisements; and if he will consult with the Independent Television Authority under Section 4 of the Television Act in order to devise methods of preventing the interruption of programmes by advertisements.
    Mr. K. Thompson: The Authority tells me that there was no question of this speaker being interrupted in order to insert advertisements. On the other point raised by the hon. Member, my right hon. Friend sees no reason to intervene.
    Mr. Mayhew: Is the hon. Member aware that the Authority's opinion is not shared by the victim himself who states —and many viewers agree—that he was interrupted on the word "and" in order to allow advertisements to be shown? Will the Minister say why this was? What is gained by allowing serious programmes of this kind to be interrupted in this way? It is not necessary for economic reasons. What is gained by it?
    Mr. Thompson: I have been advised that Mr. Curtis, the gentleman in question, had no complaint to make at the

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    time, that he had finished the sentence on which he was engaged and that he was at a point at which the programme interviewer thought it right to pass on to the next subject. In those circumstances, I do not think that the hon. Member's judgment is necessarily the right one.
    Mr. Hale: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that I, having for the first time been able to pay a week's instalment on a television set, saw I.T.V. for the first time in the last few days and thought that the advertisements, although not very good, were quite the best part of the programme?
    Mr. Mayhewasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that the broadcasting of the play, "The Bridge of San Luis Rey", on the Independent Television Authority programme on 6th January was twice interrupted, and then prematurely ended, by advertisements; and what arrangements he has made in his Department to ensure that the rules agreed by him with the Independent Television Authority in accordance with Schedule 2 of the Television Act are properly observed.
    Mr. K. Thompson: The Authority tells me that the abrupt transition to advertisements at the end of the play, which was not itself prematurely ended, was due to an error of judgment, which is much regretted. It has been the subject of detailed investigation with a view to preventing any similar occurrence. Two stations only were concerned: the others cut out advertisements or faded out naturally. As regards advertisements during the play, the Authority is satisfied that these were inserted in natural breaks in accordance with the Second Schedule of the Television Act.
    Mr. Mayhew: Is the Minister aware that this is the same kind of answer as we have been given to similar Questions of this kind on many previous occasions? Since the Authority shows itself quite incapable of exercising authority on this or other matters over the programme contractors, will he intervene and stiffen them up a little?
    Mr. Thompson: Wild generalisations of that kind do not carry serious discussion of this matter any further. To some extent this is a matter of opinion as to what is or is not a natural break.
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    That is not in dispute at all. But I repeat what I said before: it is not necessarily the case that the hon. Member's opinion is the right one.
    Mr. C. R. Hobson: Is the Minister aware that these are not wild accusations at all, that evidence has been laid before both the I.T.A. and himself and that, despite this, there is still no action taken against these breaches of the Act? Will he do something about it?
    Mr. Thompson: If the hon. Member's question is designed to confine this discussion to the accusations which have been made in detail, such as that dealt with in the Question, the fact of the matter is that they number very few indeed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The hon. Member and his hon. Friends will have opportunities of checking on them in the future. The fact is that about 600 advertisements are sent out everyday and, out of that total, it is very rare indeed that we get this kind of specific complaint. When it happens, the Authority takes the kind of action which I have described.
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Postmaster-General (1) whether, under Section 4 (4) of the Television Act, he will issue regulations defining more clearly the natural breaks which may be used for advertising;
    (2) what consultation he has had with the Independent Television Authority under Section 4 (4) of the Television Act recently about definition of natural breaks which may be used for advertising.
    Mr. K. Thompson: My right hon. Friend is not convinced that there is need at present to use his powers to define natural breaks. The Independent Television Authority, whose duty it is to secure that advertisements shall not be inserted otherwise than at the beginning or end of a programme or in natural breaks therein, assures me that its requirements are generally closely observed and firmly enforced.
    Mr. Chapman: When the Television Bill was being discussed, were we not given to understand that natural breaks would be definite intervals, such as between the rounds of a boxing match? Does the hon. Member honestly think that at the time of the discussion of the

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    Bill anyone would have attempted to justify the kind of breaks which are used for advertising now? Is it not becoming a national scandal the way the spirit of the Act is being breached by this weak-Authority?
    Mr. Thompson: I certainly cannot think that the Television Authority will be able to do its duty better by being subjected to this kind of abuse. This question was debated at great length in the House during the passage of the Television Bill, and I cannot accept any responsibility for the extent of the hon. Member's understanding.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Is not the hon. Member aware that very substantial assurances were given when we discussed this matter during the course of the Bill by the present Lord Chancellor? Is he not further aware that repeated complaints have been made on the Floor of the House? Is it not time that he told the Independent Television Authority that it is defaulting on its responsibility under the Act?
    Mr. Thompson: The fact of the matter is that, apart from these occasional contributions from hon. Members opposite, the Authority itself and the Post Office receive very few complaints, if any, on this point.
    Mr. Gower: Will my hon. Friend reject what is apparently the view of the Opposition—that this is the biggest single issue facing the country at present?

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Rocket Bases (Security)
    Mr. Haleasked the Secretary of State for Air (1) to what extent he is now satisfied that the security arrangements in connection with the United Kingdom rocket firing bases are adequate to prevent knowledge of their location being acquired by a potential enemy and if he will make a statement;
    (2) whether he will reconsider his decision to erect high security fences around land rocket bases in view of the fact that a security fence is an indication of the whereabouts of a high security base.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. George Ward): Any base of this kind must obviously become known in time,
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    but I am satisfied that this is no reason for publishing an official list of all of the sites.
    Mr. Hale: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I was not suggesting that he should publish an official list. I was supporting his desire to have secrecy. In view of the fact that the situation of many of these places is now published in every newspaper from The Times to the "Poultry Breeders' Weekly Gazette" and is known to the Nuclear Action Committee, I wondered whether there was not a possibility that some of these things might be translated into Russian and become known abroad. Ought not the right hon. Gentleman to preserve more strictly his undertaking not to let the House of Commons know where they are either by a statement from him or through the Press?
    Turning to Question 19, does he not realise that there is the difficulty that if security fences are high they become noticeable and if they are low they do not give security?
    Mr. Ward: The Government's position was made perfectly clear on this matter by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence on 24th February, 1958, when he said:
    "It would obviously not be in the public interest to disclose the number of missiles or the number of sites or their precise location."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th February, 1958; Vol. 583, c. 30.]
    That is still the Government's position.
    Mr. Haleasked the Secretary of State for Air how many civilian police are at present employed at the secret rocket bases at North Pickenham and Watton, respectively.
    Mr. Ward: None, Sir.
    Mr. Hale: Does not that mean that the employment of a large collection of ordinary police in full police uniform in a small village in Norfolk gives some indication that something of a secret nature might be happening there? Would not the right hon. Gentleman consider the suggestion that when he has erected a high security fence he might deceive the public by putting a notice on the fence saying, "Police College, Norfolk, Air Ministry Property"?
    Mr. Ward: I have already stated that there are no civil police there at present.

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    When we asked for their help the Norfolk Constabulary kindly came and helped us.

    Malcolm Clubs
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the concern felt among airmen at the threatened closing down of the Malcolm Club organisation, he will secure that these clubs continue to have every possible support from his Department.
    Mr. Ward: I am afraid I cannot add to what I said in the course of the Adjournment debate on this subject on 18tn"December.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is the Minister aware that what he said in the course of that debate has left the position in a most unsatisfactory and ambiguous state, and that since then there has been a further volume of protest in the Press and elsewhere against the closing of the Malcolm Clubs? Will he now give an assurance that there will be no Air Ministry objection to their continuing to function?
    Mr. Ward: The assurance I gave during that debate still stands, that if the Malcolm Clubs can raise working capital and pay their debt at any time I will reconsider the decision.
    Mr. de Freitas: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the Question which I asked during that debate and which he did not then answer, namely, whether the Air Council will give the same kind of direct and indirect assistance to the Malcolm Clubs as it gives to other voluntary organisations working on Air Force stations?
    Mr. Ward: The clubs already get a subsidy of £30,000 a year, and that subsidy should be enough to enable them to fulfil their functions. It has nothing to do with what the others get.
    Mr. Farey-Jones: Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking at least to give careful consideration to the volume of opinions coming from all over the world, by the thousand, about the threatened closing of these clubs? Will he at least undertake to give the matter fresh consideration?
    Mr. Ward: We have already very carefully considered all expressions of
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    opinion, and no one regrets more than the Air Council the necessity of closing these clubs.

    Lady Tedder (Broadcast)
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Air for what reason he ordered the cancellation of a broadcast to be given by Lady Tedder on 11th November over the Forces Network to Royal Air Force stations in Germany with regard to the work of the Malcolm Clubs.
    Mr.Ward: No order was given for the cancellation of a broadcast by Lady Tedder.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have seen the order made by the Air Ministry cancelling the broadcast? Is he aware that since that was cancelled by his Ministry a broadcast which Lord Tedder was going to give recently was also cancelled by the Ministry? Does the right hon. Gentleman not regard this action as a regrettable and arbitrary interference with the rights of very distinguished patrons of the Malcolm Clubs?
    Mr. Ward: I disagree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. We asked Lady Tedder to submit the script so that we could have a look at it and see what she intended to say. This is a Forces Network run by the Army entirely for the benefit of the Forces there, and it is perfectly reasonable, particularly in view of the fact that we were going to debate this matter in the House shortly, that we should have asked to see what Lady Tedder was going to say. She preferred not to send us a script.
    Mr. Shinwell: Do we understand that if the contents of a script do not happen to agree with the Minister's point of view the Ministry is entitled to prevent the views in that script being broadcast to members of the Air Force? By what right does the Ministry arrogate to itself that authority?
    Mr. Ward: I did not say that was so. I said that we reserved the right to have a look at the script in matters which are as controversial as this. Where a very distinguished Marshal of the Royal Air Force is in conflict with the Air Council, I should have thought it not unreasonable to ask him to let us know what he proposed to say when speaking direct to the airmen over this Network.
    Mr. Bevan: Do we now understand that our Forces abroad, naval, military and air, must now understand that whenever they are listening to broadcasts they are really listening to the command of the Army, Navy or Air Force?
    Mr. Ward: This has nothing to do with the B.B.C.
    Mr. Bevan: I did not mention the B.B.C.
    Mr. Ward: It is run by the Army and it broadcasts directly to the airmen, and it is well known and accepted by the Army and the Air Force that in matters of controversy they should refer the script to higher authority.
    Mr. Bevan: Does not that really mean that in this case the soldiers must feel that every time they are listening to a biased broadcast and the other point of view is not put at all? How much confidence does the right hon. Gentleman think the Forces will now place in these broadcasts?
    Mr. Ward: The Army is responsible for these broadcasts.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is it not true to say— and why does the right hon. Gentleman not come clean about these things—-that the only controversy in this matter is as between the monopoly of N.A.A.F.I. and opportunities given to voluntary organisations to cater for the welfare of the Services? Irrespective of the merits of this question, if Lord or Lady Tedder or anybody else wants to broadcast on the Forces Network in future, will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that he will not prevent them?
    Mr. Ward: The right hon. Gentleman is not quite clear about the nature of the controversy. It has nothing at all to do with N.A.A.F.I. This is purely a financial matter, as I have explained already to the House in an Adjournment debate. On the second point, I still consider that it is not unreasonable if a very senior officer is in conflict with the Air Council on a matter of this kind that he should at least tell us what he proposes to say before he says it.
    Mr. G. Brown: On that point, what did the right hon. Gentleman want to do with the script when he got it? Was it his intention to stop Lord or Lady Tedder making a speech if he did not like it?
    Mr. Ward: Had I thought the script very highly controversial or criticising a Government or Air Force decision— [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—I would certainly have asked Lord Tedder to reconsider making it.
    Hon. Members: Resign.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Is it now clear from the reply given to the last supplementary question that the Minister has said that if a broadcast criticises the Government the Government will stop it being made?
    Mr. Ward: I am sorry—the Air Council is what I said.
    Mr. Bevan: Was it not only the other day that the House was given some information about senior members of the Services having differences of opinion among themselves about certain operations? There did not seem any objection at all to the Services quarrelling among themselves about a high question of strategy, but there appears to be something terrible about Lord Tedder disagreeing with the War Office about the future of the Malcolm Clubs? Why does the right hon. Gentleman not grow up?
    Mr. Ward: This is a matter about which there were many Questions on the Order Paper and an Adjournment debate pending, and it was perfectly reasonable to ask what line Lord Tedder proposed to take.
    Mr. Fletcher: On a point of order. In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall take the earliest opportunity of raising this matter on the Adjournment.
    Miss Lee: Further to that point of order. I beg to give notice that I shall take the earliest opportunity of drawing attention to the fact that Her Majesty's Government appear to take the view that the wives of senior officers are not persons in their own right but are necessarily merely megaphones for their husband's point of view.

    Strike/Reconnaissance Aircraft
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Air what is his estimate of the cost of the new supersonic bomber TSR2; and when it is likely to be in operational service.
    Mr. G. Brownasked the Secretary of State for Air approximately when the new strike/reconnaissance aircraft being developed for the Royal Air Force is expected to be ready for service; what will be its approximate cost; how many will be ordered; and how its performance will compare with existing similar types of aircraft such as, for example, the United States Republic F.105.
    Mr. Ward: As I explained in a written answer to the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) on 17th December, it has been decided to develop a new strike/ reconnaissance aircraft as a replacement for the Canberra. The cost will depend upon negotiations between the Ministry of Supply and the contractors. We expect the aircraft to enter service during the mid-1960s. It would not be in the public interest to give the numbers likely to be ordered.
    In the reconnaissance réle the TSR2 offers advantages over the F.105 and will also be able to operate from short improvised runways which the F.105 cannot use.
    Mr. Hughes: Would not the Minister give an approximate guess of what this new venture is likely to cost? Will it be thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of pounds? Can he also give us an assurance that the machine will not be obsolete before it starts to fly?
    Mr. Ward: I can certainly give an assurance on that last point. On the first one, clearly it would be wrong to give any indication of cost while negotiations are going on between my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply and the manufacturers.
    Mr. Brown: Whilst congratulating the Secretary of State for Air on having scored this redoubtable victory over his colleague, may I ask if he does not think it proper to tell the House in what respect this plane, when it becomes available in the mid-60's or later 60's, will be superior to planes existing today? What will be the additional performance it is expected then to have? Secondly, is it not true that before the right hon. Gentleman decided on this, he must have formed some estimate of the cost of development? Ought he not to share this information with the House, which will ultimately have to authorise the expenditure?
    Mr. Ward: I do not think it is for me at this stage to do that. That must come at a later stage, when negotiations are completed with the manufacturers. If it comes at all, it should come from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply. On the first point, the advantages that this aircraft will have over existing types is a greatly improved performance at all altitudes and ability to operate from very short runways, which is essential in the réle which this aircraft is primarily to fill, which is the support of the Army in the field.
    Mr. Brown: Do I take it from that cautious reply that the right hon. Gentleman has very little knowledge of what the airplane will do, when it will be available or what it will cost?

    Vulcan and Victor Bombers
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Air what is his estimate of the cost of the latest Vulcan and Victor bombers.
    Mr. Ward: It would be contrary to established practice to give precise figures, but in very general terms the cost of the aircraft now on order is likely to range between £700,000 and £1 million.
    Mr. Hughes: Does not the Minister really think that, at a time when rockets are playing such an important part in the new type of warfare, these machines are now either obsolete or nearly obsolete, and is he not spending a large amount of public money without sufficient reason for it?
    Mr. Ward: No, Sir. These aircraft are still, and will be for some time to come, the main part of the British deterrent.

    AW.660 Aircraft
    Mr. G. Brownasked the Secretary of State for Air approximately how many AW.660 aircraft will be ordered for the Royal Air Force; whether they will be used to replace some of the existing variety of types of transport aircraft; and whether he will make a statement on Government policy for the future equipment of the Royal Air Force Transport Command.
    Mr. Ward: The AW.660 is being ordered to supplement our existing transport aircraft. I am not at present in a

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    position to say how many may be ordered. The question of a strategic freighter is still being studied.
    Mr. Brown: Is the Secretary of State setting a new record for decisions which he is not in a position to announce or say anything about? Having ordered this aircraft, surely he knows, and would he not like to tell the House, how many the Army will need the Air Force to operate to carry its provisions? Surely he would like to tell the House whether this will replace any existing aircraft? Cannot he tell us anything about it, or does he take all his decisions in a vacuum?
    Mr. Ward: I have already said that this aircraft will supplement the existing aircraft in Transport Command. It will add to the already very considerable airlift capacity of Transport Command.
    Mr. Brown: Then do I understand that the Valettas and the Hastings and all the rest will go on and on? Is there no policy on the part of Her Majesty's Government about R.A.F. Transport Command?
    Mr. Ward: The right hon. Gentleman knows that the Beverley has still got a very useful life ahead of it. There is no reason to discard it at the moment. Eventually when it does become worn out it may be necessary to order some more of these to replace it, but for the time being this aircraft will be used to expand the lift of Transport Command.
    Mr. Brown: Do I understand that all these decisions are being left for us to take when we take over?

    Suez Operations (Aircraft Markings)
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Secretary of State for Air when it was decided to paint the wings of Royal Air Force aircraft used in the Suez operation with two yellow stripes on a black background; and how many are still so marked.
    Mr. Ward: The Anglo-French plans for operations which might be undertaken in the Middle East to guard against dangers which might result from the nationalisation of the Suez Canal in July, 1956, provided that British and French aircraft used in any such operations should carry these special markings in addition to national markings. This is quite usual in a combined operation. The
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    special markings were put on R.A.F. aircraft on 30th October, 1956. They were removed as soon as the Suez operations were concluded. No R.A.F. aircraft still carry these markings.
    Mr. de Freitas: Were not these markings those in use by the Israeli Air Force when they invaded Egypt, and is not this direct evidence of collusion between the Government and the Israelis?
    Mr. Ward: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply he received from the Foreign Secretary on 19th December, 1956.
    Mr. de Freitas: Will the Secretary of State for Air please look again at that reply and see if it is not direct evidence of passing the buck from one Department to another? Will he come clean on this, because it is an important matter?
    Mr. Ward: The hon. Gentleman has already had an answer from the Foreign Secretary and I have absolutely no responsibility for the Israelis.
    Mr. Bevan: With all respect, that is not the question that was asked. Were these markings used by the Israeli Air Force?
    Mr. Ward: I have no knowledge of those facts—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Let me finish. Do not be so hurried. I have seen a picture in the Aeroplane of an Israeli aircraft with these markings on it, but there is no question whatever of these markings being given to the Israeli Air Force by the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Dudley Williams: Does not my right hon. Friend think that the colour of these alleged markings was much more appropriate to the conduct of Her Majesty's Opposition during the Suez operation?
    Mr. Bevan: Whilst it may be correct that the markings which were used were not conveyed to the Israeli Air Force, did the Israeli Air Force convey to us what their markings were going to be?
    Mr. Ward: As far as I know, no.

    Island of Gan (Airfield)
    Mr. P. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will make a statement on the progress being made in providing an airfield on the island of Gan.
    Mr. Ward: Work on the Royal Air Force staging post is going ahead satisfactorily. Some of the domestic buildings cannot be started until arrangements have been made to move the islanders now living on the site, but this will not delay flying from the airfield.
    Mr. Williams: In view of the importance of this airfield in Commonwealth relations, can my right hon. Friend give any estimate of when the work will be completed?
    Mr. Ward: About the middle of the year.

    Thor Missiles
    Mr. G. Brownasked the Secretary of State for Air, in view of the statement, a copy of which has been sent to him by the hon. Member for Belper, by the United States Ballistic Missile Division Commander responsible for the installation of Thor missiles in Great Britain, to the effect that the first Thor-equipped squadron would be fully ready in this country in February, and that a few missiles were expected to blow up on the stand, to what extent it remains the policy of Her Majesty's Government that such missiles delivered for use by the Royal Air Force shall be used for training purposes only; and what action he is taking to guard against missiles blowing up on the stand.
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Secretary of State for Air why he has accepted Thor missiles from the United States Air Force before they have passed satisfactory tests.
    Mr. Ward: The missiles delivered to the R.A.F. up to date are for training purposes only. The trials taking place in America are proceeding most satisfactorily, and any modifications found necessary will be made before the weapons are passed for operational use.
    The reference by General Schriever to rockets blowing up on the stand has been quoted out of context and referred to failures in the early research and development stage in America. No weapon of the type delivered to us has blown up on the stand.
    Mr. Brown: I am relieved to hear that it has not blown up on the stand yet, but is the Secretary of State for Air aware that General Schriever in fact said, "Of course we expect to have a few missiles blown up on the stand"? He
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    was not referring to past performance but to future expectations. Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to take upon himself the guarantee that this will not happen?
    The more important question I want to put is this: the right hon. Gentleman keeps on referring in this House to these missiles being for training purposes only. The American general responsible for their installation here has gone back home, has quoted the number—rather more than 60—as being established here, and has used the words "They will be fully ready by February". "Fully ready" must mean operationally, so does not the Minister feel he is beginning to be convicted of dissembling in this matter?
    Mr. Ward: The only thing that is happening is that the right hon. Gentleman is convicting himself of not knowing what he is talking about. There are nothing like 60 here. Assembling means putting on their pads. There will be some ready on their pads in the middle of February, as the general said. Finally, there is no question of any danger of their blowing up on their pads.
    Mr. Brown: I may well not know what I am talking about, unlike the right hon. Gentleman, but the American general, who should know, said that each squadron will have 15 missiles here by next month. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that there will be four squadrons. Apparently we are all incapable of making four times 15 into 60. Is the right hon. Gentleman now saying that the American general was stating an untruth in saying this? Why does the right hon. Gentleman keep on insisting that the missiles which are placed here are for training purposes only, when one cannot train with Thor missiles because the only place they can hit is America, unless one wants to hit Russia?
    Mr. Ward: I find it impossible to believe that the American general said that 60 missiles would be here by next February.
    Mr. Brown: He said 15 missiles per squadron.
    Mr. Ward: The American general did not say they would be here by February.
    Mr. Brown: Yes, he did.
    Mr. Ward: I must look into that. If he did, he was absolutely wrong.

    Forward Scatter Stations
    Mr. Masonasked the Secretary of State for Air what further steps have been taken to site the forward scatter stations required as a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation radio link with North America; and what estimate has been made of the power required in the high frequency beam.
    Mr. Ward: These forward scatter stations are to be part of a N.A.T.O. communications system in Western Europe. Sites are still being considered. The power output will not be more than 10 kilowatts.
    Mr. Mason: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the siting of these stations is most important and that the public should be aware of the siting of them as quickly as possible? Is he aware that Dr. Shinn, an authority on the health hazards emanating from powerful radar transmissions, has said that a 20 kW transmitter sited on level ground would be dangerous up to a radius of half a mile? Although the ones the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned may be less powerful, they are nevertheless a danger to the public and the public should know where they are to be sited.
    Mr. Ward: As the hon. Gentleman acknowledges, these are only 10 kW stations and not 20 kW stations. I am assured that the location and design of the existing types are such that there is no danger whatever to the public, but, of course, the local authorities will be fully consulted as to the siting when the time comes.

  TRANSPORT

    Road Accidents (Motor Cyclists)
    Sir F. Medlicottasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many motor cyclists have been killed or severely injured on the roads in Great Britain during this year to the latest convenient date.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): Between 1st January and 30th November, 1958, 1,087 motor cyclists (including riders of mopeds) were killed on the roads, and 15,966 seriously injured.
    Sir F. Medlicott: In view of the very heavy loss of life and injuries, particularly among young men, is further thought being given to the possibility of making the wearing of crash helmets compulsory?
    Mr. Nugent: We think that the wearing of crash helmets is already spreading well throughout the motor-cycling fraternity and do not think it would be assisted by making it compulsory.

    Motor Vehicles (Noise)
    Sir F. Medlicottasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if his attention has been drawn to the increasing noise caused in built-up areas by vehicular traffic, especially motor-cycles and sports cars; and if he is satisfied with the adequacy of the regulations concerning silencers.
    Mr. Nugent: The noise problem and methods of dealing with it are continuously under study in our Department in conjunction with the other bodies concerned. The Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations, 1955, contain provisions designed to prevent excessive noise from the exhausts of motor vehicles. Enforcement of the regulations is a matter for the police.
    Sir F. Medlicott: Is my hon. Friend aware that this is a case where motor cyclists are the chief offenders? Is he satisfied that the regulations are being adequately enforced?
    Mr. Nugent: I am not responsible for the enforcement of them. My hon. Friend must put that question to the Home Secretary. I can say that we are proceeding with research into the problem of noise to see whether some better regulations can be devised. We well realise the importance of this matter.

    Car Parking
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will state the amounts raised under car parking schemes to the latest available date that have been allocated to the provision of off-street parking in accordance with the provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1956; and if he will list such car parks.
    Mr. Nugent: Responsibility for the allocation of surplus revenues from car

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    parking schemes under the Road Traffic Act of 1956 rests with the local authorities concerned. One such scheme has been in operation in north-west Mayfair since 10th July, 1958. The surplus revenue cannot be computed until the end of the financial year, and Westminster City Council has not yet considered such allocation.
    Mr. Davies: Does not the hon. Gentleman recall that when Parliament agreed to these parking schemes, which included the installation of parking meters and charging for parking on the highway, it did so only on condition that the money was used as speedily as possible for the provision of off-street parking? Is it not a fact that the full value of these parking schemes is not being realised as long as there is no parking off the streets?
    Mr. Nugent: We certainly wish to see off-street parking schemes come along with the parking meter schemes, but it is for the local authority concerned when it has seen what revenue it gets to draw up its schemes to conform with the 1956 Act.

  CIVIL AVIATION

    Air Transport Advisory Council
    Mr. Beswickasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to what extent he now proposes a change of policy in regard to revising and widening the terms of reference of the Air Transport Advisory Council; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I do not intend to lay proposals to this end before Parliament in the current Session.
    Mr. Beswick: What was the purpose of the right hon. Gentleman's reference in his speech at the Air Transport Independent Association dinner? Is he intending to give that organisation more facilities or not? Would it not be much better, instead of giving hints like this in public and promises in private, that he should make a clear indication of his intentions in Parliament?
    Mr. Watkinson: I have given no hints in public and promises in private. I said that it would be a good thing that if all those who were interested discussed the
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    proposition that we should have a more broadly based licensing authority for the air. My suggestion seems to have been well received.
    Mr. Beswick: Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman has conveyed to the independent operators in private and by hints in public that he is preparing to give them greater facilities with regard to licences for new routes? Is he not aware that this produces a feeling of uncertainty among both the corporations and the employees of the corporations? Will he clear the matter up?
    Mr. Watkinson: It might well do so if it were a fact, but it is not.

    Prestwick Airport
    Mr. Rankinasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation on what works the £2 million set aside for the reconstruction of Prestwick Airport will be spent.
    Mr. Watkinson: The development of Prestwick Airport at an estimated cost of between £2 million and £3 million will include the extension of the main runway and associated taxi-track to about 9,800 feet; the provision of a new terminal area, including a new apron; the construction of a new control tower and fire station; and the diversion of the A.77 road.
    Mr. Rankin: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, but can he not now give details of the expenditure on the various items? Can he say whether or not any sum is being reserved for the construction of an hotel at Prestwick, which is absolutely necessary?
    Mr. Watkinson: If the hon. Gentleman, who takes a great interest in Prestwick, will put down a question about the details I will try to answer it. We have the hotel under consideration. As he knows, the Redbrae site is a much better one for an hotel than the other one.

    Aircraft Accident, Southall (Inquiry)
    Mr. N. Nicolsonasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is now in a position to state when the public inquiry into the crash of a Viking aircraft at Southall on 2nd September, 1958, is to be held; and if he will give

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    an assurance that this inquiry will be started immediately the result of the inquest is known so that all the relevant facts may be elicited before the question of whether other proceedings should be taken is decided.
    Mr. Watkinson: There will be no avoidable delay in starting a public inquiry as soon as proper consideration has been given to the results of the inquest.
    Mr. Nicolson: My right hon. Friend has been most helpful to the company which owns the aircraft, and I thank him for it. Has not an unusually long time been taken to complete the preliminary inquiries into this air crash? While I quite understand that he cannot comment on the coroner's three adjournments of the inquest, in general terms, would it not be a good thing to complete preliminary inquiries as soon as possible after a crash so that the company concerned can have an early opportunity to clear its name before a properly convened public inquiry?
    Mr. Watkinson: My Ministry would very much like to hold its own inquiry as soon as possible, but as my hon. Friend knows, we cannot do so until the coroner has concluded his inquest.
    Mr. Beswick: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the situation created by the scope of the coroner's inquiry has made the matter most difficult? While we appreciate that neither he nor his colleagues has any power over the coroner, is it not possible to have some sort of inquiry and some sort of understanding so that this sort of situation does not arise again?
    Mr. Watkinson: I am considering future procedures in air accidents, but it is very difficult when a coroner's inquiry has to be held first.

  ROADS

    Birmingham-Preston Motorway
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what alterations in the original line of the Birmingham-Preston motorway he has proposed since the line was agreed with the Staffordshire County Council in July, 1957; and for what reasons.
    Mr. Nugent: There has been no change in the line of the motorway in Staffordshire from Dunston northwards, which was fixed by a scheme under the Special Roads Act on 30th June, 1958. It has been found necessary to re-investigate the line southwards from Dunston, and a number of possible variations to meet particular difficulties are being considered in consultation with the local authorities concerned. We hope later this year, in accordance with the provisions of the Special Roads Act, to publish a draft scheme showing and explaining the revised line.
    Mr. Swingler: Is it a fact that the original line was agreed with the Staffordshire County Council on the basis of what was most efficient for modern practice? What particular conditions are being reconsidered now? Is it a fact that there is intervention from private property interests which is now liable to jeopardise the line of the road?
    Mr. Nugent: Reconsideration has taken place in the light of the objections which we received to the line originally published, the possible engineering difficulties of mining subsidence on part of the line that we had originally considered, and the possibility of making a better line for the junction with the other motorways proposed to join in that area. We believe that in the light of all these circumstances a re-investigation is justified. When we have completed that we shall publish a further line, and we shall then hear whether or not there are objections to it.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS
  Aged and Infirm Persons
  Mr. Lipton: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 6th February, I shall call attention to the urgent need for improved services for aged and infirm persons and for a closer co-ordination of national and local services, and move a Resolution.
  Fuel and Power (Policy)
  Mr. Blyton: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 6th February, I shall call attention to the need for reconsideration of the nation's fuel and power policies, and move a Resolution.
  Jodrell Bank Installations (Capital Allocation)
  Mr. Winterbottom: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 6th February, I shall call attention to the need for an increased capital allocation by the Government to the Jodrell Bank installations, and move a Resolution.
BILLS PRESENTED
  EUROPEAN MONETARY AGREEMENT
  Bill to make certain provisions of a financial nature in connection with the operation of the European Monetary Agreement, and for purposes connected therewith, presented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. R. A. Butler, Sir David Eccles, Mr. Maudling, and Mr. Erroll; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next and to be printed. [Bill 58.]
MALTA (LETTERS PATENT)
Bill to remove the limitation of Her Majesty's power to revoke or amend the Malta (Constitution) Letters Patent, 1947, presented by Mr. Lennox-Boyd; supported by Mr. Julian Amery and Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next and to be printed. [Bill 59.]
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings on Government Business exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. Heath.]

RESTRICTION OF OFFENSIVE WEAPONS
3.35 p.m.
Mr. Barnett Janner: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the law in relation to the making and disposing of flick knives and other dangerous weapons.
It is now about four years since I first raised this subject here, then by way of Questions. An increasing number of murders and stabbings with flick knives and similar weapons have taken place since then, and I have frequently endeavoured to rouse the Home Office out of its complacency, unfortunately, without success. The dangerous situation created in consequence of the inaction by the Home Secretary in this respect has been frequently commented upon by judges, magistrates, social workers and others.
For example, Mr. Justice Streatfeild, as far back as 14th November, 1957, at the York Assizes, said:
"What an invention of the devil is the flick knife, which unhappily so often features in crimes of violence in this country often committed by young people. Personally I don't agree that there is any room for thankfulness or self-congratulation or complacency in that these articles are manufactured abroad.
The fact is that they are used over here all too frequently."
He went on:
"Time was within my memory when the use of cold steel at an argument was regarded with contempt and described as being un-English, but unfortunately, as time has gone on, we can no longer point the finger of scorn and contempt upon certain foreign races of whom we used to think it was very typical. It is now the unhappy fact that very often it is our country men who use them.
I don't know how you feel about it, but one would have thought it was high time that Parliament considered either making the sale of these articles in this country altogether illegal or, at any rate, that they should be controlled by strict licence as firearms, or other dangerous weapons, because they are dangerous weapons and they should not be procurable by people who only want them to cut string."
The West London Magistrate, Mr. Barraclough, in a case heard on 3rd November, 1958, said:
"It is absolutely scandalous that these things can be purchased by young men."
Mr. Justice Salmon also said:
"The flick knife now appears to be regarded by teenagers as a badge of manhood."

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A responsible journalist employed by the Star,who made inquiries quite recently, stated:
"A youth of 17 in a street only a few yards from the spot in Holloway, where the policeman died, told me today: 'We carry knives for protection from other gangs. But many of the lads carry them for bravado'.
And this from a schoolboy of 14 in the same district:
' Many of the lads in our school have flick knives'.
As a police sergeant said: 'It's the fashion. A certain class of youngster thinks it's big to be able to flash a knife'".?
I have received support for my efforts to deal with this menace from a considerable number of individuals and public bodies, national and provincial newspapers in general and from the papers circulating in my constituency, the Leicester Mail and the Leicester Mercury,which have constantly expressed concern about the present position.
I remind the Home Secretary that the Association of Municipal Corporations, which has a comprehensive membership, has recently requested him to introduce legislation similar to that which prevails in the State of New York, in the United States, a matter to which I drew his attention several years ago. A similar request has come from the Women's Group of Public Welfare and Standing Conferences of Women's Organisations, which consists of representatives from 46 national women's organisations and other voluntary organisations with a large women membership.
It also includes representatives of all three political parties, of the Churches— Anglican, Roman Catholic, Free Church, and Jewish—and a wide variety of social service organisations. Recently such organisations as women's Co-operative organisations in various towns and the National Association of Youth Leaders and Organisers have given support to the idea of dealing with this very serious position.
I have just returned from the United States, where I made some inquiries about the legislation which prevails in the State of New York. I have tried to direct the attention of the Government to this legislation before. According to the American authorities it is effective, and most of the fears which have been expressed in the replies to Questions given
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in this House with regard to the ineffectiveness of these Measures because of the use of these instruments by tradesmen are very much exaggerated; indeed, the American legislation reads as follows:
"a person who offers, sells, loans, leases or gives to any person any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, hereinafter referred to as a switchblade knife; a person who offers, sells, loans, leases or gives to any person any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device, hereinafter referred to as a gravity knife; … is guilty of a misdemeanour."
The question whether certain trades have to use these shocking instruments for certain purposes has been investigated by the American authorities, and at one time the legislation incorporated a provision exempting people who used these knives for trade purposes. But it has been found that that provision was not necessary and it has been removed. I think that the only way in which a person can now own one of these weapons is by being specifically licensed to do so. I am also told that shops have now stopped exhibiting these weapons, and that only those who are prepared to have proceedings taken against them still retain them.
I have received a letter, a part of which I think it would be useful to read, from a man whose son was killed by one of these weapons. He is a Mr. Gibson, who makes this appeal:
"The incidence of crimes involving personal violence, and even death through stabbing with 'flick knives' and the like, in the hands of irresponsible youths and certain foreigners, when alone, and more often in gangs, prompts me to solicit your influence and that of any association within reach of your good offices, to so secure, that such offensive weapons are not imported nor manufactured and distributed for sale in this country.
The knives in question have no real practical use except the wicked purpose I have indicated —that of stabbing. The law has already provided severe penalties for persons carrying…offensive weapons, but left untouched the dealer who exposes for sale or sells them."
He concludes by saying:
"…my motive in writing this appeal springs from a heart still grieving the loss of my only son. aged 21 years, who in June of this year was killed by being stabbed by such a knife as I have described"—
that was in 1957—

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"Nothing we can do can bring him back, that truth is obvious; but it seems to me some legislation at national level is demanded to protect the public and to combat this modern menace of recent origin, which is so un-British in character—meantime, many parents up and down the country remain worried and anxious."
There is much that I could say, but it will have to be left for a later stage.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Janner, Mr. Chapman, Mr. Sydney Irving, Mr. Prentice, Mr. Wade, Mr. Eric Johnson, Mr. George Jeger, Mr. Marcus Lipton, and Miss Joan Vickers.

RESTRICTION OF OFFENSIVE WEAPONS
Bill to amend the law in relation to the making and disposing of flick knives and other dangerous weapons, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 20th February, and to be printed. [Bill 60.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  AGRICULTURE (SMALL FARMERS) BILL
  Order for consideration, as amended (in the Standing Committee), read.
  Bill recommitted to a Committee of the whole House in respect of the Amendment to Clause 1, page 1, line 20, standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Mr. Thomas Williams, and the Amendments to Clause 3, page 3, lines 16 and 21, standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Mr. Thomas Fraser.— [Mr. Willey.]
  Bill immediately considered in Committee.
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

  AGRICULTURE (SMALL FARMERS) BILL

    Clause 1.—(SCHEMES FOR GRANTS FOR INCREASING EFFICIENCY OF SMALL FARM BUSINESSES.)
    3.48 p.m.
    Mr. Thomas Williams (Don Valley): I beg to move, in page 1, line 20, at the end to insert:
    Provided that where an application under the scheme is made jointly by several persons and the Minister is satisfied such persons will carry out their trades or businesses by co-operating in a manner approved by the Minister such trades or businesses shall be deemed to be a single farm for the purposes of the scheme.
    In Committee, the right hon. Gentleman was very sympathetic towards a similar Amendment which we then moved. Neither he nor we were satisfied whether or not the Bill gave effect to the point we had in mind, and we are giving him another opportunity to tell us whether he thinks that the terms of the Bill will allow co-operation and amalgamation schemes to qualify as single farm business schemes.
    It might be as well to let hon. Members on both sides of the House know why we feel that the Amendment is necessary. Paragraph 18 of the White Paper states that in the United Kingdom there are about 500,000 holdings varying in size from one acre up to the largest, and that of those 500,000 about 300,000 are what could be termed farm businesses. It further states that of those 300,000 about two-thirds will fail to qualify, either because of their size or because of their efficiency; that of the remainder about 65,000 comparatively small farms, of between 20 and 100 acres, may qualify for a grant for a farm business, and that a further 25,000 would probably qualify for

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    some sort of income under the supplementary scheme.
    That deals with 300,000 out of the 500,000 holdings, leaving about 200,000 smaller holdings—some of them part-time and some hobby farms, or whatever they may be called—which are not likely to qualify under either one or the other of these schemes. We are anxious that, where it should be possible for two or more small adjoining units to be able to co-operate or amalgamate, these two or three units, if they do amalgamate, should qualify for a grant under the Bill.
    The right hon. Gentleman told us that it was a difficult Bill, and we agree with him. We know that there are borderline cases whatever size of unit may be fixed. Whether it be 20 acres as the limit downwards or 100 acres as the limit upwards, whether it is 250 man-days per year, 275 man-days or whatever it is, there will be some above and some below, and we do not blame the right hon. Gentleman for that. What we are anxious about is that 200,000, or a very large portion of the 200,000, will not only not be able to benefit in any sense under the terms of this Bill, but will actually have to contribute to the 65,000 who do benefit, if that number actually does qualify for farm business schemes.
    We think, therefore—because the right hon. Gentleman, as well as we ourselves, disagrees with compulsory amalgamations —that we ought not to miss an opportunity of encouraging co-operation or amalgamation wherever that should be possible, and this seems to me to be possibly the best chance of amalgamating a number of small units which we have had for a long time.
    I wish now to quote from the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Standing Committee. On 2nd December, 1958, in col. 104, the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "There is nothing at all, under the Bill as drafted or the intention I have in mind, to prevent a number of people—one or two or even three—coming together to work out a joint plan and, so to speak, amalgamating those two or three farms for the purpose of farming under one common plan and qualifying under the small fanners scheme."
    It is clear that the right hon. Gentleman is not unsympathetic to the idea. It is clear that he has been advised that, under the terms of the Bill as it now stands, co-operation and amalgamation could qualify for a grant, but, in the next
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    column of the OFFICIAL REPORT to that from which I have just quoted, the right hon. Gentleman said that he saw nothing in the Bill that would prevent amalgamations of that kind. In the following column, the right hon. Gentleman argued that the word "person" for this purpose means "persons". Probably, his advisers were right; I do not know. Finally, in column 116, the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "This has been a useful discussion, and I will see whether or not what I have said is correct, that the Bill carries out that intention. If I am satisfied that it does as drafted, I will say so at a later stage. I am sure that hon. Members would not wish to repeat something which is already in the Bill."— [OFFICIAL REPORT,Standing Committee A,2nd December, 1958; c. 104 and 116.]
    I move this Amendment to give the right hon. Gentleman the opportunity of persuading us that his intention—and we give him full credit for it—as well as ours, is to provide the necessary encouragement, and let it be known that the encouragement is there, for such co-operation and amalgamation as may take place under the terms of the Bill. I do not think that this is the best Bill in the world, but, for what it is, at least we ought to make the best of it. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will, therefore, tell us what further information he has and whether or not it would not be better to include in the Bill the words proposed by the Amendment, so that all and sundry would see not only what the intentions of the Minister were, but also, perhaps, how their friends, relatives or neighbours could benefit as a result of the Bill.
    I hope it will not be forgotten by any hon. Member that there are 200,000 occupants of small areas of land—maybe part-time, maybe hobby farms, or what we will—who, in the interests of food production and of reducing the hostility which is bound to face the Minister, no matter how many pats on the back he may receive from the 65,000 who benefit —he will not get any from the 150,000 who get nothing, but who will have to contribute to the other 65,000 who do benefit—should be able to see clearly that that intention is embodied in the Bill and will be faithfully carried out when the scheme arrives, and that ultimately nobody will be disappointed in carrying out these amalgamations, but that the opportunity is provided for them if they wish to do so.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Hare): I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) for giving me this chance of repeating the assurance which I gave in Committee, and I am glad to be able to inform the Committee that what I said upstairs was correct—that the word "person" means "persons". In fact, the very thing which the right hon. Gentleman and right hon. and hon. Members on that side of the Committee wanted, and which my right hon. and hon. Friends on this side also want, will be effected by the Bill as drafted now. It will do precisely what the right hon. Gentleman wants. It will enable two or three farmers, if they wish, to combine their businesses to form a single farm business, and, as long as they qualify within the standards laid down of minimum acreage and the upper limit of 450 standard man-days, they will qualify within the general compass of the scheme.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question? He will remember that in Committee we quoted the case of Lord Stonehaven, who has 20 farms. How does that statement cover his case?
    Mr. Hare: This is hardly amalgamation, but if Lord Stonehaven, or anybody else, had two or three small farms, so long as they did not exceed the 450 standard man-days, and they were to be amalgamated, they would qualify under the Bill as it now stands.
    I think that, although obviously the number of such amalgamated units will be limited by what I have just said about standard man-days, it will form an important by-product in that it will create a number of voluntary amalgamations, which I believe right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the Committee want to see.
    Mr. F. H. Hayman: Will the Minister say whether such an amalgamation will make it necessary for there to be a legal partnership agreement?
    Mr. Hare: I should say that it would probably be wiser to have a legal partnership, but the two or three parties concerned would have to satisfy my officials that that was their intention, and that they were, in fact, going to carry out
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    these two or three businesses as one single unit.
    There is another point which I should like to make about another form of cooperation that can be encouraged under the Bill. It is my hope that neighbouring small farmers, each preparing programmes for improvements in their farm businesses, may find that they need, as part of their programme, to share in some rather expensive equipment. If they wish to do that, I would hope that they would get together and form a machinery syndicate; and here the farm business grant would help them to find their share of the cost of that machinery syndicate. This might well be an economical way of improving the farming business. My advisory officers are being instructed to advise on any proposals of that sort which come forward as part of a small farm improvement programme.
    4.0 p.m.
    To set out what Members on both sides of the Committee felt about this matter I issued only last week a new pamphlet for circulation to all fanners. I explain in paragraphs 27 and 29 of it the form of part-time farming, partnerships and co-operation. I hope it will make clear any doubts there may be in our debates. I appreciate that these points were brought forward as the result of our very useful Committee discussions.
    Mr. Eric Fletcher: Will copies of the document be available in the Vote Office to hon. Members?
    Mr. Hare: The pamphlets are being sent out to farmers, but I shall be very pleased to make copies of them available in the Vote Office.
    Mr. Fletcher: It is difficult for hon. Members to follow what is happening unless we can see whether the instructions sent out to farmers correspond with the terms of the Bill.
    Mr. Hare: I am sure that the hon. Member would not wish to be discourteous in any way. I am now reaffirming that all the things I said in Committee—of which the hon. Gentleman was not a member—were correct. The pamphlet is a further piece of assistance to farmers to show that what was said in Committee can be interpreted

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    in the normal way by recipients under the scheme.
    Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment could be withdrawn. I do not think it is in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman that we should go wider than I have suggested. It would be wrong for us to accept applications from groups of farmers who are co-operating in certain matters but have not put all their farm business into a common pool. I gave instances in Committee of two or three men joining together and running stock on a pool basis, but still carrying on other work as individuals. There would be danger in that, because it would break the principle of our scheme, which is to give assistance to viable units. We have described what we mean by "viable".
    I would express my thanks to the right hon. Gentleman and hope that he might now think fit to withdraw the Amendment.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: We should have some explanation from Scottish Ministers about the administration of the Bill in Scotland. The noble Lord the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland will remember that I raised this question in the Committee. There was an attempt to clarify the point, but it was not very successful.
    We have protested strongly at the way that Scotland is being used as a sort of tin can behind the English dog. Over and over again we have found that Scottish provisions have been incorporated in an English Bill although the law of property in the two countries is in many respects different. I was, therefore, interested to see in today's Scotsman that the kind of protest that we have been making all along has powerful support from the Central Federation of Landowners in Scotland.
    I do not think that we should allow Scotland to be shoved aside by an explanation from an English Minister on any occasion, when we have a separate Department. I see that the Secretary of State for Scotland is present with powerful reinforcements, which I assure him will be very much needed. We shall attempt to get the Scottish position clarified.
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    How is the Bill likely to be operated? That question already greatly concerns farmers throughout Scotland. The Bill has been called, and, I think, rightly so, by the organ of the National Farmers' Union of Scotland, a "body blow to Scotland". The Amendment proposes that there shall be opportunity for cooperation and agreement among particular farmers who might not otherwise be eligible for grant under the Bill. This applies to my own part of Britain, and especially to the constituency adjoining mine, which is, unfortunately, not at present represented in the House owing to the death, which we all regret very much, of the former Member for Galloway, Mr. Mackie.
    There is to be a by-election in that agricultural constituency, and it is interesting to note that farmers there are asking pertinent questions about how the Bill is likely to operate. Why do the Secretary of State and the noble Lord the Joint Under-Secretary of State reject the Amendment? In the recent protest organised by the National Farmers' Union an extremely important speech was made by a farmer in Galloway. That gentleman, Mr. Ian Jennings, is a well-known and representative farmer in that part of Scotland. He cited cases of small farms in his own parish and he estimated that of the 25 marginal farms three would be eligible under the Government's proposals, two were doubtful and 18 were not eligible at all. Mr. Jennings analysed the number of small farms in that corner of Scotland in the Galloway area and came to the conclusion that only one quarter of them would be eligible for grant at all.
    If two of those farmers decided to come together and co-operate, and then apply for a grant which they would not get individually, how sympathetic would the noble Lord be towards those applications? The number of farms affected in Galloway is very substantial; could the noble Lord assure us that he would look sympathetically on applications from one, two or three small farmers who would qualify for grant? If he would not do so, he would make the situation in that part of Scotland very difficult indeed. There are special circumstances affecting the south-west corner of Scotland as well as the northern parts. The noble Lord or the Secretary of State should explain why they reject the Amendment.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lord John Hope): The answer to the hon. Gentleman's plea is that I will, of course, look sympathetically at any request that is made to me, as I hope I always do. That does not in the least mean that I am bound to accede to it. The hon. Gentleman is asking me to look sympathetically at any request—that is all he can do—and that I will do. The yardstick laid down by my right hon. Friend the Minister applies to partnerships in Scotland as in England. There is no need for me to repeat his arguments, which apply in our case. Galloway can be no exception, because it comes into it just as much as does anywhere else in Scotland.
    Mr. R. T. Paget: I understand that the object of this Amendment is to enable more people to get grants. If that be the idea, I am against it. I feel that the fewer people who get these grants the better.
    These grants come from the farmers' incomes. We have the Government making grants, not out of their own pockets, but out of the farmers' incomes. Those are capital grants which they recognise as to be so economically worthless that it is no use offering them to the farmers, who will use them as anything except a free gift because they would not dream of being silly enough to accept them as interest-free loans. The staggering thing is that the National Farmers' Union leadership did not seem to tumble to this swindle. Their income is being attacked in order to be compulsorily used for capital grants which could not earn an income, or at least which the recipients did not think would earn a sufficient income, to make it worth while on the basis of an interest-free loan.
    The rank and file of the borrowers have at last tumbled to this and they wish to oppose the Bill. I only hope that the Labour Party will not be behind the rank and file of the farmers, but will vote against this Bill on the Third Reading.
    Mr. Frederick Willey: I intervene only because this was a matter which was discussed in Committee and I want to take the opportunity of saying to the Minister at once that we recognise that in some measure he has narrowed the gap. Quite frankly, however, I still feel there is a fundamental
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    difference between us. I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for calling attention to the circular which is being issued, and which will encourage co-operation. I am obliged to him for the steps he is taking about machinery syndicates, but he will realise that this does not answer the points we are making by this Amendment, because each member of the machinery syndicate will be judged on his own merits as a single farm business.
    I recognise, also, that we are agreed about voluntary amalgamations and partnerships. We wish to encourage voluntary amalgamation and we have no objection at all to a development of partnerships among small farmers, but the right hon. Gentleman will realise that this does not really meet the point we made in Standing Committee. The right hon. Gentleman will not, I think, disagree if I say that, to satisfy him, the small farmers would have to merge the whole of their farms into a single business. We said in Standing Committee, and say once again, that we think the Minister should have powers to deal with other forms of co-operation.
    I say at once that there is a difference of emphasis between the two sides of the Committee on co-operation in farming. I think that there is a much greater emphasis on co-operation on this side of the Committee. That is why we regard the Amendment as one of substantial importance. I would remind the Minister that it seeks merely to provide him with permissive powers. We are not seeking to place any obligation on his shoulders. We are saying that we recognise the need to endeavour to encourage voluntary amalgamations and to encourage partnerships, but here we are dealing with very rugged individuals who will not easily accept the idea either of amalgamation or partnership.
    We believe that the Minister has the opportunity, under the provisions of the Bill, to encourage and to use the services of the N.A.A.S. to encourage co-operation. For that reason, I beg the Minister to accept the Amendment. We give him credit for going so far on the way to meet us, but we feel that this is an important matter and the machinery is provided here for encouraging co-operation. The Minister ought to have discretion to decide in particular cases that the cooperation is sufficient and effective enough

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    to be recognised for the purposes of this Bill.
    We have said, and I repeat, that the Bill provides for safeguards and conditions. We ask the Minister to take no more than permissive discretionary powers. I hope, therefore, that as there is no difference of principle but a difference of emphasis, the Minister will accept the Amendment. If he does not accept it, we shall have no alternative but to take the matter to a Division.
    Sir John Barlow: A small point arises out of this debate to which I wish to call attention. As I understand, we have been dealing with the case of two or more small farmers joining together to qualify for this grant. I wish to ask what is allowable in a reverse direction? Suppose a farmer has a much larger farm than is necessary for such a grant and divides it, either with his wife, or his wife and children, or, possibly, as each child attains its majority, he takes off 20, 30 or 50 acres, which is the appropriate size to qualify. Can the farmer fragment his farm among his family or friends in order to qualify?
    4.15 p.m.
    Mr. E. G. Gooch: The desirability of some forms of cooperation was mentioned during the Committee stage and I had every hope that the Minister would have carried the matter a little further than he has done today. Even at this late hour I hope he will change his mind about the Amendment. The absence of reference to cooperation in the Bill, earlier, cut out a lot of small men who otherwise would be in a position to qualify. I accept the word of the Minister about the possibilities under the Bill as it stands, but I think he might have another look at the Amendment.
    I wish to refer to the document issued by the Ministry. In the section dealing with co-operation, on page 3, that document says:
    "an eligible small farmer who considers that he could increase the efficiency of his farm business if he were able to use an item of machinery or equipment that he could not afford to acquire outright, may well wish to form or to join a co-operative machinery syndicate."
    That is very encouraging and is the next best thing to accepting the Amendment,
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    but I want to know from the Minister, who will be made responsible for forming the syndicates, who will take charge of the running of the syndicates? It is impossible to expect small farmers to give their time and attention to running syndicates in which money is involved. If the Minister could carry the matter a little further, I should be very much obliged.
    Mr. Harold Davies: I hope that the Minister will be able to concede this Amendment. He was most courteous to us during the Committee stage. I wish someone had thought of distributing the document referred to through the Vote Office, so that we could have had an intelligent grasp of the Amendment in relation to the latest information sent to farmers. I therefore hope that the Minister will at least send copies of the document to hon. Members of the Committee and, if possible, to all hon. Members.
    The Government had an excellent opportunity here of increasing agricultural co-operative associations. The membership of such associations since 1946 has been a staggering demonstration of the desire of small farmers to make their farms economic and viable. The membership in 1946 was 98,765. Last year it was 230,687. That is a terrific growth. If the right hon. Gentleman accepts the Amendment he will have a chance of encouraging this kind of cooperation. The turnover of the associations has increased in the same period from £23 million to £129 million. That is a contribution to the country. As has been pointed out, the snag in the Bill is being observed by the farming fraternity.
    It will cost £6 million to put the provisions of the Bill into effect. The"64 dollar question" is: where is the original £6 million coming from? It is coming out of the income of the farming fraternity. It is agreed that this £6 million will stimulate another £3 million or £4 million in further grants to small farmers. If we encouraged co-operation I think that the financial burden on the farming fraternity would be less.
    It is an interesting fact that in North Staffordshire there are 1,710 small farms of under 20 acres. In my constituency there are nearly 1,340. Those farmers in Leek will get nothing unless there is

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    some kind of co-operation and encouragement in that hill district. How are we to expect them to draw up that co-operation? Those farmers work morning, noon and night and have not the time to work on legal articles of association. So long as the Ministry's inspector or the National Agricultural Advisory Service advises that there is no skulduggery or humbug about an amalgamation, that should be sufficient without legal articles of association. Many of these people would have to hand over money to lawyers—I apologise to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget)—to obtain those articles of association. The Minister could set an example by allowing association by charter rather than by script.
    On the question of amalgamation, we have to protect the Minister of Agriculture as well as the farmer. Could farmer A, living 20 miles away, amalgamate with farmer B? Do the terms of the Bill mean that farms must be contiguous, or reasonably near together, to amalgamate? There may be a farmer with under 20 acres in Lincolnshire who wished to link with his brother who had a small farm in Merionethshire. Protection must be provided against that kind of thing. Consequently, I ask if farms must be contiguous or at a reasonable distance from each other so that machinery and other types of co-operation may be reasonably facilitated? I sincerely hope that the Minister will give this chance of voluntary co-operation by accepting the Amendment.
    Mr. E. Fletcher: I have no doubt whatever that if effect is to be given to the intentions which the Minister has expressed, it will be necessary for the Committee to accept this Amendment, for the reasons given by my hon. Friends. I do not believe that the Minister went any way to meet the case that was presented to him in Standing Committee. I was not a member of that Committee, but that was no fault of mine. I think it is useful that it has been decided to recommit this Amendment to a Committee of the whole House because it enables those of us who were not on the Standing Committee to apply our minds to an important matter, and what to me is a puzzling matter in spite of the Minister's explanation.
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    I am very glad that in the course of his remarks the Minister referred to this document which has been issued by the Ministry. I was a little suspicious when I heard him refer to it, and I have become even more suspicious since I had an opportunity of reading it, thanks to the courtesy of my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch). I do not think that the document does what the right hon. Gentleman told the Committee it does. It seems to me to do exactly the reverse. It is important that the Committee should know what this document says. We are asking that there should be written into the terms of the Bill an express specific provision enabling small farm owners who do not qualify for assistance to join together so that they may become eligible to rank for assistance.
    We have heard during the course of the Minister's remarks references to some very ambiguous matters. He referred to a partnership, to an association and to a syndicate. If my hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) will allow me to say so, I have the greatest sympathy with what he said. It is most undesirable that small farm owners should be subjected to the necessity of getting legal assistance to enable them either to understand the document or to comply with its provisions.
    There is an important paragraph in this document which, unfortunately, the Minister did not read to the Committee and it is important that the Committee should know about it. There are two relevant paragraphs, the first one of which is headed "Partnerships" and the next "Co-operation." The paragraph headed "Partnerships" says this:
    "If two or more small farmers have hitherto run separate farm businesses too small to be eligible for assistance, they may form a partnership and in that case an application can be accepted from the partnership in respect of the new combined farm business if that is within the limits of eligibility."
    No one has any quarrel with that. That is what we would have expected. It is always open to any two small farmers to combine and form a partnership. So far, so good. But that is not what we are concerned with in this Amendment. We are concerned to enable two small farmers, who, for very good reasons, do not want to amalgamate and form a formal partnership, to get the benefit of assistance under the Bill and join together in

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    what the Minister suggested was less than a partnership—namely co-operation.
    The document goes on to say this:
    "Forms of co-operation (short of a full partnership) among a group of farmers, each of whom taken individually does not satisfy the conditions of eligibility, cannot make the group as a whole eligible for assistance."
    Would the Committee have dreamed from what the Minister said that that was the effect of this document? We expect a certain amount of candour in this matter when a Bill of this kind comes back for consideration. The document to which the Minister has referred expressly says that forms of co-operation among two or more farmers not amounting to a full partnership will not make them eligible for assistance. That is the reverse of what he told the Committee upstairs and of what he repeated today.
    4.30 p.m.
    In order not to be misunderstood, let me read the next paragraph, which qualifies the matter in some way but in a way which is thoroughly unsatisfactory and which makes convincingly the case for this Amendment. That paragraph, which my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North has quoted, reads as follows:
    "But an eligible small farmer who considers that he could increase the efficiency of his farm business if he were able to use an item of machinery or equipment that he could not afford to acquire outright"—
    which is what we want him to do—
    "may well wish to form or to join a cooperative machinery syndicate."
    I do not know what a co-operative machinery syndicate is. I do not know whether the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington, South (Sir P. Spens) knows what it is.
    Sir Patrick Spens: As I have been named, I do. Long ago, when I was the Member for Ashford, the first combine harvester was bought by a syndicate of farmers none of whom could afford it individually, and they used it in turn.
    Mr. Fletcher: I am sure that we are all very grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. If that is what it means, it is all the more important that this Bill should give statutory provision to it so that farmers may know what is meant. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be the first to appreci-
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    ate, there is no warrant in the Bill as it stands, in the absence of this Amend-ment, to enable the Minister to make a grant for such an undefined group of people. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leek said, most farmers reading that paragraph will wonder what a co-operative machinery syndicate means. They will not have any idea how to form one. They will not know who of them is liable to repay the loan, and I am sure that it will lead to a great deal of confusion.
    Mr. F. V. Corfield: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that a farmer who never reads about the ordinary things which appear in the farming Press, which has been very full of this matter of syndicates lately, is probably not the sort of person who ought to be helped?
    Mr. Fletcher: I should have thought he was the sort of person who ought to be helped. I am sorry if it is suggested that because there may be some farmers who have not obtained the degree of literacy of other farmers, they should be deprived of help.
    Mr. Corfield: They ought to know what is going on.
    Mr. Fletcher: This is an entirely novel doctrine which I am sure most of my hon. Friends would repudiate.
    Mr. John Hall: Would the hon. Gentleman accept my assurance, as one with some understanding of these matters, that the great majority of farmers certainly do understand what is meant by a central machinery pool? Although they may not have taken part in running one, they understand how it operates.
    Mr. Fletcher: If the majority of them understand what it means I am sure that there is a minority who do not understand. It is obviously desirable that the benefits of this Bill should be made universal. We are legislating to give the Minister power to do certain things and it is important that we should make express provision for it. The whole burden of the Minister's speech in resisting this Amendment was that he thought it was unnecessary. He thought that he could do what he wanted without this Amendment. He did not give a single reason for his objection to writing the words of the Amendment into the Bill.

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    As has been pointed out, this is merely permissive and I should have thought, to put it at its lowest, that in the interests of good legislation and good administration it is desirable that the Bill should make expressly clear the powers which the Minister intends to use and which we desire him to have.
    Mr. Hare: I should like to answer some of the questions which have been raised in this debate. First, I should like to say something about the remarks of the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher). I can assure him that I have not tried to mislead the Committee on any of these matters. What is true is that there is a difference of opinion, and the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) made that quite clear.
    I am not prepared to go as far as the Amendment goes. I made that clear in my previous speech. It is unfair to insinuate that I was trying to induce the Committee to believe that I was going as far as the Amendment intended I should go. I cannot go as far as the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) wants me to go, because—I will repeat this—the whole emphasis of our scheme is upon helping the viable farm unit as a single business. We do not think it right to give help to, say, three farmers, each with non viable farm businesses, merely because those three farmers had agreed to share some but not all of their labour or expenses. I hope it is clear that there is that difference between us.
    The hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) and the hon. Member for Islington, East asked whether lawyers would have to be brought into these partnerships. The answer, as I said in my original reply, is that it is not essential to bring a legal partnership into being. As long as our advisory officers are satisfied that two or three people are determined to run their individual units as one single unit they will give advice. It may be that for their own protection farmers may wish to draw up legal partnerships, but that is not essential.
    The hon. Member for Leek also asked how these machinery syndicates would be operated. Again, I do not think we should regard this as complicated. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, South (Sir P. Spens) has given the answer. If a farmer wants
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    to buy a tractor or a combine harvester, and he has not got enough money, he can combine with wo or three others and they can buy it themselves. We have had a lot of experience of these machinery syndicates, and it is because of that that we would ask our district advisory officers to advise farmers how best to run their little machinery syndicates.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Middleton and Prestwich (Sir J. Barlow) raised a point about fragmentation and asked whether people could reduce the size of their farms to enable them to benefit from the scheme. This must depend entirely upon the circumstances. If a farmer merely tried to fragment his existing farm so as to come into the scheme and there was no good agricultural purpose for doing so, our advisory service would not accept him as an applicant. If, on the other hand, after a year or so the advisory service thought that it was better in the interests of farming that a unit should become two, I do not say that that unit would not necessarily be considered for the scheme. We have to use the good sense of the men who would be responsible for the scheme.
    The difference between the two sides of the Committee is quite clear. I have gone some way towards meeting the right hon. Member for Don Valley and his hon. Friends, but I cannot go as far as they would like me to go.
    Mr. Thomas Fraser: I wish to say one or two words relating to Scotland. I am sure that the Secretary of State for Scotland would be the first to agree that the small farmers in Scotland are probably more adversely affected by the Bill than small farmers anywhere else in the United Kingdom.
    My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) referred to the small farmers in Galloway. May I ask the Secretary of State whether it is not a fact that there are many hundreds of small farmers in the North of Scotland who are not crofters, and many hundreds in Caithness and Sutherland whose farm units are too small individually to qualify for assistance under Clause 1? These are farms of 2 to 20 acres. These farmers at present enjoy the advantage of M.A.P. grants. They get them now, but they lose them under the Bill in order to make money available to assist those who will benefit under Clause 1.

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    These hundreds of small farmers are farming the most difficult farmland. They are fanning in the most sparsely populated part of the British Isles and are living in an area where there is constant depopulation and considerable unemployment. I can think of the location of some of the groups of smallholders who are not crofters with 2 to 20 acres who will lose the M.A.P. grant. This Amendment would enable those people to come together and make a joint submission to be regarded as a business for the purpose of a grant under Clause 1.
    The Amendment would be of great help to many hundreds of small farmers in the North of Scotland who will suffer great injury under the Bill as it is at present drawn.
    Acceptance of the Amendment would not completely remove the grievance felt by those small farmers, but it would go some way towards meeting their difficulty. They could join together and get a capital grant in order to bring about an improvement in the businesses which they are trying to run. I assure the Secretary of State that if we are to rest on the declaration made by the Minister that he is concerned only with supporting viable units and those people who are farming less than 20 acres in the North of Scotland will not be assisted by the central Government because they are not operating viable units, the Minister's name will be mud, but that will be beside the point because he is not the Minister responsible. Those small farmers will wonder why it is that the Secretary of State allows this decision to be taken against the interests of those small farmers on the declaration by the Minister that they are not farming a viable unit.
    I ask the Secretary of State to confirm or deny what I have said about the effect of the Bill on many hundreds of small farmers, and whether many hundreds of them who are not crofters will lose M.A.P. grants under the Bill and cannot qualify for assistance under Clause 1 unless the Amendment is accepted.
    Lord John Hope: I think that the answer is that there is nothing whatever to stop very small men getting together and amalgamating.
    Mr. Fraser: If the Under-Secretary wants 10 small farmers who are each fanning three, four, five, six or seven acres
    224
    to amalgamate for the purpose of the Bill it will be an amalgamation and the effect of that must be to turn many small farmers out of their farms. The only possible effect of the amalgamation of a large number of small farmers is to hasten and precipitate further depopulation. Is that what the hon. Gentleman wishes?
    Lord John Hope: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the Minister made it perfectly clear—
    Mr. E. G. Willis: The Minister does not know anything about Scotland. The Joint Under-Secretary speaks for Scotland, not the Minister.
    Lord John Hope: What an extraordinary observation.
    The Minister has made it clear that the Government recognises the problem of the very small farmers. We realise that that is a special problem by itself. Admittedly, the Bill does not cover the tiny man who farms five acres. That is a different problem which the Government recognise. To say that the Bill will not help every man with a farm of under 10 acres does not mean that we do not realise that there is a problem which has to be dealt with.
    Mr. Fraser: Does not the Under-Secretary agree that the Bill injures every small farmer with under 20 acres in North Scotland? None of them will be eligible for grants under Clause 1.
    Lord John Hope: I was specifically asked about men farming under 20 acres. As far as the continuation of M.A.P. goes for the next three years, each case will be considered on its merits by the A.E.C.s. I do not say that all the farmers will get it, because they have not been getting it even now, but they can still rank for it for the next three years.
    4.45 p.m.
    Mr. A. Woodburn: I have been told that even in the Slamannan plateau in the middle of Stirlingshire, land is extremely difficult to cultivate. When I was Secretary of State for Scotland it was found that acidity and other things in the soil made it difficult to be economic. Is it the Government's intention to depopulate and stop farming in great areas of Scotland? It seems so. Have they decided to

    225
    write off great chunks of Scotland as being not possible to farm economically?
    If that is the case, then it is a policy which is contrary to everything done so far. In the past the Government's purpose has been to try to maintain the population in scattered and difficult parts. Do the Government propose to let these parts become wild again? If not, can the Minister give a pledge that the Government will go into the question of these difficult areas?
    I cannot judge the accuracy of the complaints made to me, but if they are correct, this area in Stirling will be depopulated. Do not the Government propose to do anything to prevent that? I should like a pledge from the Government, between now and the passage of the Bill in another place, that they will consult the people concerned and relieve the public's mind by declaring that it is not the policy of the Government to let parts of Scotland go wild again.
    Lord John Hope: The anxiety which the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) expressed has been answered already, and I hope that others throughout Scotland who have read the White Paper have noticed what paragraph 5 says:
    "There are many farm businesses that are not capable of providing remunerative full-time employment to an average occupier. A considerable number of these are part-time only. To the extent, however, that non-viable farm businesses present a special problem the Government have been studying this and will continue to do so."
    That applies every bit as much to farmers in Scotland.
    Sir David Robertson: The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) referred to my constituency. It seems to me that there are two classes of small farmer. First, there is the farmer with 70 or 80 acres of arable or permanent grass. I am told by
    many farmer constituents, many of whom I met during the Recess, that they will not qualify under the Bill because they work a greater number of man-hours than the yardstick laid down in the Bill. I do not see how the amalgamation of two or three of these farmers would make them qualify, either in combination or by remaining alone. They feel sore about the matter. They think that the slothful will be helped while the efficient, hardworking man will be left to pay for their sloth.
    There is another very serious difficulty and it is rather extraordinary in a crofting area. In the County of Sutherland there are 362 smallholders on 1,460 acres. This matter was raised at a mass meeting of farmers in Inverness, on Saturday, and considerable anxiety was expressed about it. These men do not come under the Crofters Commission, because they own their land or they are sub-tenants. They are now in receipt of marginal grant, I presume, but they will not be in future. Their position will be serious. The spokesman for the County of Sutherland said that they represented the finest type of agricultural stock. Most of them were working their own land. They were working their own small farms, and they worked for the big farmer, too.
    I commend this point to the Secretary of State. It is a matter which should be inquired into, for I am quite certain that it would not be the wish of the Government to harm these hard-working artisans who have acquired enough money to buy a property or who work the land on a sub-tenancy. They would like to be tenants, but we have in Scotland an extraordinary system whereby a man in Australia can remain the tenant, and these men, therefore, cannot become tenants.
    Question put,That those words be there inserted:—
    The Committee divided:Ayes 190, Noes 219.

    Division No. 19.]

    AYES

    [4.52 p.m.

    Ainsley, J. W.

    Blackburn, F.

    Brockway, A. F.

    Albu, A. H.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Allen, Arthur (Botworth)

    Boardman, H.

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Bonham Carter, Mark

    Champion, A. J.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Chapman, W. D.

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Balfour, A.

    Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

    Clunie, J.

    Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

    Boyd, T. C.

    Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Cove, w. G.

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Jeger, Mrs.Lena(Holbn & St.Pncs,S.)

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Davles,Rt.Hon.Clement(Montgomery)

    Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech(Wakefield)

    Probert, A. R.

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

    Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Rankin, John

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Redhead, E. c.

    Deer, G.

    Kenyon, C.

    Reeves, J.

    de Freitas, Geoffrey

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Reynolds, G. W.

    Diamond, John

    Lawson, G. M,

    Rhodes, H.

    Dodds, N. N.

    Ledger, R, J.

    Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hn, John (W. Brmwch)

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannook)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Lipton, Marcus

    Ross, William

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Logan, D. G.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Short, E. W.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    McAlister, Mrs. Mary

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Fernyhough, E.

    McCann, J,

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Fitch, Alan

    MacColl, J. E.

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Fletcher, Eric

    MacDermot, Niall

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

    Forman, J. C.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Sparks, J. A.

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    McLeavy, Frank

    Spriggs, Leslie

    George, Lady Megan Lloyd(Car'then)

    MacMillan, M. K. (western Islet)

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Gibson, C. W.

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Stonehouse, John

    Gooch, E. G.

    Mahon, Simon

    Stones, W. (Consett)

    Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Mallalleu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

    Grey, C. F.

    Mason, Roy

    Stross,Dr.Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Messer, sir F.

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Grimond, J.

    Mikardo, Ian

    Viant, S. P.

    Hale, Leslie

    Mitohison, G. R.

    Wade, D. W.

    Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Monslow, W.

    Warbey, W. N.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Moody, A. S.

    Watkins, T. E.

    Hannan, W.

    Morrison,Rt.Hn.Herbert(Lewis'm, S.)

    Weitzman, D.

    Hastings, S.

    Mort, D. L.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Moss, R.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Moyle, A.

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Holman, P.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Willey, Frederick

    Holt, A. F.

    Oram, A. E.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

    Oswald, T.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

    Howell, Denis (All Saints)

    Owen, W.J.

    Williams, Richard (Openshaw)

    Hoy, J. H.

    Paget, R. T.

    Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Winterbottom, Richard

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Paton, John

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Hunter, A. E.

    Pearson, A.

    Woof, R. E.

    Hynd, J. B. (Atteroliffe)

    Peart, T. F.

    Yates, v. (Ladywood)

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Pentland, N.

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Zilliacus, K.

    Janner, B.

    Popplewell, E.

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Prentice, R. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Mr. John Taylor and Mr. Rogers.

    NOES

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Finlay, Graeme

    Aitken, W. T.

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

    Butler,Rt.Hon.R.A. (Saffron Walden)

    Freeth, Denzil

    Ashton, H.

    Carr, Robert

    Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

    Atkins, H. E.

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Gammans, Lady

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portstmth, W.)

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Baldwin, Sir Archer

    Cole, Norman

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Barlow, Sir John

    Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

    Gibson-Watt, D.

    Barter, John

    Cooke, Robert

    Glover, D.

    Batsford, Brian

    Cooper, A. E.

    Glyn, Col. Richard H.

    Beamish, Col. Tufton

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Godber, J. B.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Corfield, F. V.

    Goodhart, Philip

    Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Gower, H. R.

    Bevine, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Bidgood, J. C.

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodslde)

    Biggs-Davison, J. A.

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Green, A.

    Bingham, R. M.

    D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Bishop, F. P.

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

    Black, C. W.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Gurden, Harold

    Body, R. F.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Bossom, Sir Alfred

    Duncan, Sir James

    Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

    Duthie, W. S.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Braine, B. R.

    Elliott, R.W-(Ne'castle upon Tyne. N.)

    Harrison, A. B. C. (Maidon)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Heald, Rt. Hon. 8ir Lionel

    Bryan, P.

    Fell, A.

    Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

    228

    229

    Henderson, John (Cathcart)

    Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

    Robertson, Sir David

    Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

    McLean, Neil (Inverness)

    Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, w.)

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Hobson, John(Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

    Macmillan, Rt.Hn.Harold (Bromley)

    Sharples, R. C.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Hope, Lord John

    Maddan, Martin

    Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

    Hornby, R. P.

    Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W.(Horncastle)

    Speir, R. M.

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M, P.

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir p. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

    Horobin, Sir Ian

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

    Mathew, R.

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Mawby, R. L.

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr, S. L. C.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

    Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

    Storey, S.

    Kurd, A. R.

    Moison, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

    Hutchison, Michael Clark(E'b'gh, S.)

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh,W.)

    Mott-Radclyffe, sir Charles

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Hyde, Montgomery

    Nairn, D. L. S.

    Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

    Iremonger, T. L,

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Teeling, W.

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

    Temple, John M.

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'h, E. & Chr'ch)

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Noble, Michael (Argyll)

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Jennings, Sir Roland (Hailam)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

    Johnson, Erie (Blackley)

    O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

    Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Tilney, John (Wavertree)

    Joseph, Sir Keith

    Page, R. G.

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Partridge, E.

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Kershaw, J. A.

    Peel, W. J.

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

    Kimball, M.

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Lagden, c. W.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

    Langford-Holt, J. A.

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

    Leavey, J. A.

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Webbe, Sir H.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Pitman, I. J.

    Webster, David

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Pitt, Miss E. M.

    Whitelaw, W. S. I.

    Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

    Pott, H. P.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Ramsden, J. E.

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Rawlinson, Peter

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Loveys, Walter H.

    Redmayne, M.

    Wolrige-Gordon, P.

    Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Woollam, John Victor

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Ridsdale, J. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Rippon, A. G. F.

    Colonel J. H. Harrison and

    Mr. Hughes-Young.

    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 3.—(SCHEMES FOR GRANTS TO PERSONS CARRYING ON CERTAIN SMALL FARM BUSINESSES IN SCOTLAND.)
    5.0 p.m.
    Mr. T. Fraser: I beg to move, in page 3, line 16, to leave out "not exceeding three years".
    The Chairman: I think that the following Amendment, in page 3, to leave out lines 21 to 25, might be discussed at the same time.
    Mr. Fraser: Yes, Sir Charles, I think that it would be convenient to take the two Amendments together.
    We have now passed from the capital grants for small farm businesses to marginal agricultural production grants. The purpose of these two Amendments is to remove the terminal date which is written into the Clause for the payment of marginal agricultural production grants. The Clause provides that the modified
    230
    scheme for those grants will run for three years and then come to an end.
    When we discussed the matter in Committee, the Joint Under-Secretary of State sought to justify the Government's policy in regard to M.A.P. grants by saying that the improvement brought about in the economic stability and well-being of those farms which had the benefit of the scheme had been so increased by the Hill Farming Act, 1946, the Livestock Rearing Act, 1951 and the hill cattle subsidies—and particularly the improvement in the price of stores in recent months which flowed from the higher beef prices in this country because of our inability to obtain beef from some of our traditional sources overseas—was evidence of such an improved well-being in those farms that the marginal agricultural production grants introduced in the early years of the war could now be discontinued. I think I have put the hon. Gentleman's case briefly but not unfairly; those were, I think, his principal arguments.
    I do not accept those arguments. I argued in Committee that we could not

    231
    escape the conclusion that, if the Secretary of State were to adhere to the provisions of this Clause of the Bill, large areas of Scotland which have hitherto been kept in production with the aid of M.A.P. grants would soon begin to run down and production would fall. We should find ourselves with less beef and mutton and certainly less lambs and stores coming from those areas, and a great deal of the acreage which had been brought into reasonably good agricultural production during and since the war would revert to game and vermin.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State rejected all my argumentation. I called his attention to the Report of the Zuckerman Committee published quite recently—a Committee set up by the Government—which warned the Government of the need to keep marginal land in this country in full production. I called attention to the fact that we are much too dependent on overseas sources for the supply of our food. I said that it was the responsibility of the Government to maintain all the agricultural areas of the country in full production.
    Nobody is asking for hot-house production in those hill lands, but we do want to see our hill lands which are capable of carrying sheep and cattle and those little bits at the bottom of the hills which are capable of providing some winter cake maintained in production. We think that the withdrawal of the grants will put many acres out of production.
    The Secretary of State will, I think, concede that the farmers who have the benefit of M.A.P. grants in most of the 33 counties of Scotland, if not all of them, are not among the wealthiest farmers. There may be an odd one here and there who is a wealthy man. If he is, I rather think that he will have made his money not out of hill farming activities but out of some other activities. It is fair to say that among farmers in general, the men who will lose grants under the Clause are among the most needy and the less wealthy of our farmers—
    Mr. Willis: And the hardest working.
    Mr. Fraser: —and, as my hon. Friend says, among the hardest working.
    232
    The Secretary of State would, I think, say that, quite apart from whether they are wealthy or poor, those farmers show probably a smaller return on invested capital than any other class of farmer in Scotland. Therefore, I want to give the Government this further opportunity of saying that this scheme will not come to an end in 1962, but will continue.
    When I made my speech upstairs in Committee, I quoted from the National Farmers' Union of Scotland. There was at least the suggestion that the National Farmers' Union did not feel strongly about this. If anyone could have thought that a few weeks ago, however, no one can be under any illusion now about what the National Farmers' Union of Scotland thinks about the ending of marginal agricultural production grants. We all have the literature which the N.F.U. has sent out giving examples of farmers in all parts of Scotland whose reduction in net income by the withdrawal of marginal agricultural production grants would be 30, 40, 50, 60 or 70 per cent., which is frightening to contemplate. That, however, is what the Bill contemplates if the Clause in its present form remains. It contemplates that there will be not only the reduction, on average, of 15 per cent. of net income, which was what the Joint Under-Secretary of State calculated—
    Lord John Hope: Twelve to 15 per cent.
    Mr. Fraser: I calculated it to be rather more than 12 to 15 per cent. The hon. Gentleman spoke of 3·3 per cent. of gross income. Therefore, he said, the withdrawal of grants would be an average of 12 to 15 per cent. of net income. A reduction of 12 to 15 per cent. of net income would be a serious matter for some of the most hard-working and poorly rewarded farmers in Scotland.
    That, however, was an average figure. The Secretary of State and the Joint Under-Secretary of State must know full well that there are many farmers in Scotland whose net incomes are £400, £500 or £600 who are at present receiving marginal agricultural production grants of £200 to £300. That will all be withdrawn in the interests of Clause 1 of the Bill so that money will be found from within the industry to finance the capital grants made available under Clause 1. That is wrong and ought not to be done.

    233
    It is not only the Council of the National Farmers' Union which has opposed this proposal. In the weeks since we had the Bill in Committee, many hon. Members have attended meetings of their local branches of the National Farmers' Union. They have listened to the farmers themselves giving examples of the effect of the withdrawal of marginal agricultural production grants. Those of us who have not attended such meetings have met individual farmers. In any case, we have read the Press reports of what the farmers have told individual Members of Parliament.
    We have also read that the landowners of Scotland, who are not noted for being violently anti-Tory Government, have come out with a declaration against the discontinuation of M.A.P grants because they know—everybody in Scotland knows — that if this withdrawal of M.A.P. grants is adhered to, it will have a disastrous effect in many parts of Scotland. We have had articles, not only in the agricultural Press, pleading with the Government to withdraw Clause 3. We have had articles in the Scottish national Press by the agricultural correspondents pleading with the Secretary of State to withdraw the Clause altogether. There was an excellent leading article in the Scotsman today leading the case for Scotland.
    I beg the Secretary of State to make a concession. If he would accept the two Amendments, he would go some way towards removing the criticism that is being made about him in agricultural circles in Scotland, but he would not go all the way, because the criticism is of Clause 3 as a whole. If these Amendments were accepted, it would mean that the farmers in small units and those in units of more than 150 acres would still be outside the scope of the grants. The acceptance of the two Amendments, therefore, is not all that is needed.
    I take the view that the marginal agricultural production grants have been amongst the most useful subsidies paid to agriculture during and since the war. The cost of this subsidy in Scotland is £1¼ million a year, but the total cost of subsidies to Scottish farmers must be in the region of £40 million. The Secretary of State knows better than any of us that he gets more return for this £1¼ million than for any other £5 million he spends on agricultural subsidies in Scotland.
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    I say without hesitation that, when one gives a subsidy of this kind, it should be given in respect of the land. It is because of the degree of marginality of the land that the subsidy is paid. I am not objecting to the payment of the subsidy to a wealthy landowner who happens to have some farms in hand. There are some wealthy people with farms in hand in Scotland who are getting the benefit of M.A.P. grants. I do not object to those people getting the benefit. What I do say, however, is that we should not only pay subsidies to people who need them; we should pay the subsidies in respect of the service that we wish to encourage, irrespective of who is carrying it on. The marginal land of Scotland, which at present attracts a subsidy according to the degree of marginality and according to the operations carried out on the land—the grants are not simply a blank cheque; the work must be done—and which warrants the payment of M.A.P. grants, should continue to attract the grants whether the land is part of a small farm, a middle-sized farm or a very large farm.
    Sir James Duncan: Whatever the production?
    Mr. Fraser: I am not aware that any of those people are engaged in production which is undesirable or unwanted by the community as a whole.
    Sir J. Duncan: Some of it may be uneconomic.
    Mr. Fraser: It may be uneconomic according to the hon. Member's yardstick, but the fact that every farmer in Scotland has to have a subsidy suggests that every farm in Scotland is uneconomic. Every farmer in Scotland gets a subsidy. I do not know why we should be giving subsidies to farms that would be economic without them. Presumably we justify the granting of a subsidy because the farm would be uneconomic without it.
    5.15 p.m.
    There can be no doubt in the Government's mind that every articulate person in Scotland who would appear to have any right to offer a view about this subject, except the Secretary of State and his subordinates, takes the view that M.A.P. grants should continue. Only the Secretary of State is in favour of their abolition.

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    I know full well that M.A.P. grants have never meant the same to the farmer south of the Border as they have to the farmer in Scotland, because there are not the thin marginal lands over the Border to the same extent as in Scotland. It may be that the Minister of Agriculture can justify to the farmers of England the discontinuation of such marginal agricultural production grants and schemes as have been in operation in England during and since the war, but the Secretary of State cannot justify the withdrawal of these grants in Scotland. I have not met a single person who has been willing to accept the justification offered by the Joint Under-Secretary of State. I do not believe that the Secretary of State has any justification which he can offer for the discontinuation of M.A.P. grants.
    I beg the Secretary of State to offer some hope to those areas in Scotland where there is only marginal land and where we are losing population too rapidly. Let the right hon. Gentleman give them some hope and withdraw the Clause altogether. Only the right hon. Gentleman has the power to do that. If he cannot withdraw the Clause altogether, at least let him accept these two Amendments, which will mean that M.A.P. grants will not come to an end in 1962· If he takes them away from the farms which are too big and those which are too small, it will be easier to enlarge the scheme that is still running for farms between 20 and 150 acres and to bring in once again those of under 20 acres and those of more than 150 acres. I beg the Secretary of State either to take away Clause 3 altogether or, as the very minimum, to accept these two Amendments.
    Sir D. Robertson: I beg to second the Amendment which the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) has moved so well. I regret to find myself at variance with the Government on this issue, but I am not at all lonely. I think that all the farmers in Scotland, or the overwhelming majority of them, hold the same views as I do.
    My constituency will be the greatest sufferer by the withdrawal of marginal grants. The total cost of the scheme last year was £1,200,000 for the whole of Scotland, and for the five preceding years it was £1 million. The total cost, therefore, is only a fraction over £1 million
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    a year. I submit that no subsidy which has been given in agriculture has paid the same dividends as this one has done.
    In the days of free trade these lands in the North became more depopulated. Families could not afford to work and live on the land and they migrated to all parts of the world. When this wise Measure was introduced in the dark days of 1942, in order to ensure the maximum production of food for human consumption, it brought succour to this territory. The improvement has gone on every year. The production of beef in Caithness has gone up by between 40 and 50 per cent. and it has also gone up in Sutherland. The same applies to sheep and to all agricultural produce.
    The Committee should be made aware of the fact that these men must first spend money on the land before they get a grant. There is no chicanery and no loopholes for anything wrong. The feeling about this matter is extraordinarily strong.
    What kind of land is it? There is not a more marginal country than Scotland in the British Isles. The map reveals that. The farmers with the aid of this grant have performed miracles on land which requires regeneration every year. On the coast we have good farmers, but they are on land which geologists call "blown sand" land, and every winter the gales blow more sand on to that land. I saw a demonstration of this when I was challenging on behalf of one of my constituents the rejection of a M.A.P. grant. I was getting nowhere by correspondence and I asked the farmers to put up two leading soil experts. They produced Mr. Munroe, a B.Sc. Agric, of Edinburgh University, who was for thirty years a soil expert for the Government of India, and Major Shaw who is the head of S.E.I. in the North. They accompanied us to the farm of Cuthill on the Dornoch Firth. There was the sea, the sand, the bents and whins, and then the farm began. That is typical of this part of the country.
    The first field was a large one which had recently been cropped. I said, "That looks a good field." Major Shaw jumped over the fence, put his heel in the ground and twisted it in a half circle, and when he removed his foot I was looking into a small sand pit. That is no exaggeration. I have seen thousands of tons of sand right up the coast

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    of Sutherland and Caithness. The high land of Caithness is protected from the Ord up to Wick. Then, again, one gets the sand up to John O'Groats. I wonder whether any hon. Member has seen the land at Reiss and Dunnet behind Stoen. The problem has become so serious that students have spent their vacations there trying to clear away the sand. In the interior, of course, we have a tremendously high peat content.
    In spite of these drawbacks, that area is where the finest foundation stocks of cattle and sheep are raised. What a wonderful use the land has been put to for the nation, the Highlands being used as a livestock rearing area, selling their stores to the low-ground farmers who finish them for the fat stock market. The withdrawal of these grants will mean using the good land as a breeding area, which would surely be a great misuse of the land.
    On 10th November last, the date of the Second Reading of this Bill, I heard the reply to Question No. 3 put by my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Sir A. Hurd) to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. My hon. Friend asked my right hon. Friend how beef production was going on. The answer he received was to the effect that for the quarter ended 30th September, 1958, production had gone down. I forget the actual figures of home production, but the total of imports of beef and of home production was down by 25 per cent.
    Why should such a Bill as this be brought in? We are told that the emphasis is not on more production. Surely, production was never needed to a greater extent? Is it possible that the Government are thinking that the days of cheap labour in Argentina, Ireland and elsewhere are still continuing? Is it not obvious that wages have risen everywhere, and, in fact, that the whole world is rising against slave wages or poorly paid labour? Argentina is in no shape to send us beef. Therefore, it would seem all the more essential that M.A.P. grants should be continued.
    What will happen to this land? In the Highland counties there are still thousands of acres of land which were once fertile and which are now moors and are carrying deer, which are no asset to the nation. I agree that deer certainly have
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    a place in the national life. No one is more in favour of that than I am, but let me assure the Committee that there is far too much land in the Highlands devoted to deer and sport. Much of that land once carried sheep and cattle and could do so again. One of the things which M.A.P. grants have done is to bring back a tremendous amount of land into cultivation.
    As hon. Members know, I have been labouring this point for the last ten years in an effort to try and improve conditions in the Highlands and to make it possible for children born there and who wish to live their lives there to do so. Reclamation of moorland would mean that there would be more farms and crofts and a better livelihood for people and for industry. The Government failed on that. This blow to agriculture will produce a tragic situation.
    On the eastern side of my constituency we have at the moment an unemployment rate of 14·7 per cent. That was the figure for December. I believe that the new figures are out today, but I have not yet seen them. The figure of 14·7 per cent. is a dreadful figure for a county that is so severely depopulated. If all the farmers are unanimous in saying that the land will go back and that they are forced to get rid of their biggest expense, labour, they will work on a smaller production and, in the end, the whole community will be uneconomic.
    This is the first time that I have had the opportunity of talking on the Bill. I have made very serious attempts to speak on it already. I cannot think that the Secretary of State alone is responsible for this step which all the farmers regard as so retrograde. I feel that the hand of the Treasury comes into the matter. I regard this as a Treasury Bill. The politicians wanted to do something for the small farmers, which was a very praiseworthy and proper thing, but the Treasury said, "What are we going to get out of it?"
    The cost in my constituency of the M.A.P. grants is £121,000. I asked the Secretary of State about the saving of this £121,000 which was going to be taken from my constituents in order to be given to other people. It is to be taken from the man with the greatest need, as was said by the hon. Member

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    for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser), from the hard-working fellow doing a wonderful job on the soil and producing the finest cattle and sheep and also, let us not forget, the finest human stock which this country cannot afford to lose? We have lost far too many such people already and the first duty of any Government, whatever its colour, should be to encourage these families to remain on the land. I hope that when the overspill comes from Glasgow we shall get some of them, too.
    I think that the Secretary of State has allowed himself to be put into chains over this matter and that it is our duty to help him break them. The only fair thing to do with regard to M.A.P. grants is to restore the status quo.
    5.30 p.m.
    Mr. J. Grimond: I take the view that if the Secretary of State was not in chains he must at least have been looking in the wrong direction when this Bill was drafted.
    The effect of the Bill in Scotland will be more serious than perhaps he realises. It is a complicated Bill and perhaps its full effects were not at first fully appreciated. Whatever may be said about the general agricultural policy of the Government, it cannot be too often stated that the scheme of marginal production gives justifiable assistance to those farming on marginal land in Scotland, particularly in the Highlands and Islands.
    It has two outstanding advantages. First, it improves the land and keeps the land improved in good heart. It puts capital into the soil of Scotland. Secondly, it helps the farmers who need help and who make good use of the help given. I can give examples in my own constituency of farms which carried 40 head of cattle before this scheme came into operation but which now, with its help, carry 160 or 170 head. It helps to produce a valuable supply of good store cattle from the Highland and Island areas.
    The Government do not deny that some of the farms which have benefited under M.A.P. need further support. They are introducing a new and separate scheme for them. The small farmers' scheme, so far as the Highlands and Islands are
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    concerned, and particularly in my own constituency, suffers from very grave defects. First, it is temporary. Secondly, 450 standard man-days will exclude a great many farms which might have complied with the acreage. The Orkney farmer has to reckon both the man-days that he puts into growing the crop and the man-days he puts into working up animals. There is a very heavy allocation of time for poultry and many efficent farmers are likely to find that they are excluded from the help that is being given.
    There is the bigger acreage farm over 150 acres and the small acreage farm, which are both being excluded as well. I do not think that there is any justice or rational argument behind it. I do not think that it will encourage efficient farming, or that it will get us more food and, above all, it is going to be a most serious setback to confidence in the Highlands and Islands and to employment. Neither confidence nor employment are any too good in the area as a whole at present.
    In the northern islands of the Orkneys, about 40 farms will be affected by the withdrawal of M.A.P. I have heard it said by the Government that the amount of the M.A.P. contributions to the farming community is very small, but that is not the case if we consider individual farms in particular areas. There are at least a certain number of farms in the northern islands—I have examples of three or four—of which one-third of the net income comes from M.A.P. grants. The whole of the amount spent on the crofter counties under M.A.P. is, I think, £415,000. I believe that from these agricultural grants we get a very great deal of benefit. There may be a case against other subsidies and grants, but against this one I should have thought that there was very little cause for accusations of waste or lack of results.
    I beg the Secretary of State to look at this matter again. I believe, first, that he should put back M.A.P. until he has something better to offer. Secondly, if he cannot do that I urge him to look at the standard man-days in the small farmers' scheme. So far as the Orkneys are concerned, this will be a discouragement to people to run their farms efficiently and I think that he will admit that it is too low for the benefit of the farmers he is

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    anxious to help. He ought specifically to put something in the Bill to take the place of M.A.P. if he is to cut out the farms over 150 acres entirely.
    Thirdly, will he see whether he cannot do something for the owner-occupier, who is in exactly the same position as the crofter. The crofter can get generous grants from the Crofters Commission but the owner-occupier cannot. I do not believe that there is any fairness or reason in this. They are in the same position and many of them farm the same type of holding. I do not think that there is any excuse for excluding any owner-occupier under this Bill, which is a small farmers' Bill.
    Lastly, it is essential, if we are to have this Act, that its administration should be efficient and up-to-date. As the Secretary of State knows, there is already a backlog of applications to the Crofters Commission in the Highlands area and we are not doing anything even to assist the Commission to catch up upon it.
    This is a serious matter for the small farmers. Either they do not know whether they will have their scheme approved or not, or there is a long delay. Many will be rather unwilling to undertake some of the obligations under this Act and they will be more unwilling if they feel that they do not get assistance and quick results. I ask the Secretary of State to look at the effect of the introduction of the Bill and the withdrawal of M.A.P. from the Highlands and Islands.
    I do not think that the Secretary of State can doubt that this will tend to depopulation, unemployment and lower production in an area of Scotland which is designated as needing help and which has made considerable attempts to help itself since the war, with success. This, in its present form, will be a retrograde and not a progressive step in Highland and Island agriculture.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): I should like to intervene at this point to say a word on some of the issues which have been raised. The Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) raised certain matters that do not arise out of these Amendments. I should not be able to follow them up, but I note what he said.
    I am grateful to those who have moved the Amendment for the moderate and
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    reasoned way in which they have put their point of view. The effect, as (he hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) said, if the Amendments were accepted, would be that M.A.P. grants in their present form could go on indefinitely for farms under 150 acres, crops and grass. The Amendment would not affect what is happening to the larger farms.
    My noble Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary met a deputation from the National Farmers' Union in Edinburgh on 6th January, when they put their views to him fully and frankly. I have also had expressions of views on this matter from a number of hon. Members, including the Member for Banff (Mr. Duthie), the hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan), the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Commander Donaldson), the Member for Inverness (Mr. N. McLean), and the hon. and gallant Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Sir W. Anstruther-Gray), and I have heard from a number of bodies, including the Scottish Landowners' Federation.
    There seem to be two main representations against the Government's proposal. The first is that it is completely wrong to think of withdrawing M.A.P. assistance at all. It is suggested that this will result in reducing production, particularly beef production, and cause unemployment in upland areas. The second general comment has been that even if some modification of the M.A.P. scheme as it has operated in the past is now justified, changes should be introduced less abruptly. That has been stressed with vigour.
    As to the first argument, while I recognise the sincerity with which the views have been expressed, I think that the fears are exaggerated. The hon. Member for Hamilton, in moving the Amendment, used fairly wide phrases about large acreages which would be put out of production and large areas of marginal land which would begin to run down. These are conjectural arguments. I know that that is a view expressed fairly widely, but it is by no means clear that it is true. If I had believed for one moment that the introduction of the Bill and its application to Scotland would have disastrous effects on a large area of land which is producing valuable food and providing a large

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    amount of employment, I would never have contemplated it for one moment. Nor am I convinced now that these expressions of view are necessarily right.
    There are many ways in which the upland farmer is at present assisted and I think that it is not untimely to recall in detail what my noble Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary said when the Bill was in Committee and go through some of the forms of assistance that are available. All of them have become available since M.A.P. first started. None of them was available before then. All have been introduced since. If the Committee will bear with me I will go through them again.
    First, there are the improved schemes under the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts designed to put land and fixed equipment into good shape. The hill farmers benefit from these. Under the same Acts there is the hill cattle subsidy and, in any year where it is considered necessary, there is the hill sheep subsidy. There is the calf subsidy, with its special provision to enable farmers in the hill and upland areas who have to sell their calves before the winter to obtain the benefit of the subsidy.
    There are also all the more general production grants for cropping. These are available to hill farmers as well as to others. Some of the provisions which I have mentioned are available only to hill farmers, but there are others—for cropping, the building grant itself, the lime and fertiliser subsidy, the drainage grant and the bracken eradication scheme. I am going over some of the things which have been done to help this section of farming and to keep this part of our Scottish country in good heart and condition.
    There is also the farm improvement scheme for individual items of capital equipment and there is the silo subsidy scheme to encourage the provision of silos. All of these have come into existence since M.A.P. was first introduced. It is well worth realising that this is not a question of withdrawing all assistance in these marginal areas. Of course it is not. It is a question of whether the M.A.P. schemes are the only conceivable way of doing what we all know to be necessary—keeping this part of our country in decent condition, subject to it
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    being a tolerable thing to do. The reclamation of land which can do a useful job is very much to be encouraged, but nobody will argue that we should do it regardless of whether the land will ever be any use to anybody.
    Mr. T. Fraser: Nobody has said that.
    Mr. Maclay: That is what I have just said; that argument has not been made. One sets a limit somewhere, and it is a question of choosing the best way of achieving what we all want to achieve. We are all after the same thing—the best, most efficient and constructive use of this type of land in Scotland.
    Another thing which my noble Friend said earlier, and which I repeat, is that it is the Government's duty, and, of course, our determination, to keep the closest watch on the situation of all farming as it develops, including, of course, this type of land with which we are concerned today. It applies in particular in this case to the beef and sheep industries so far as successive Annual Price Reviews are concerned.
    While assistance may, therefore, be required from time to time, I do not think that it is reasonable to maintain that, within the framework of the Government's general agricultural policy of support for agriculture and of improving the competitive position of home agriculture, the M.A.P. scheme as such is necessarily untouchable. That is what we have to get clear. There are all these other methods. We are concerned about this type of land and we have no intention or desire to see great acreages of any potentially useful land in Scotland going out of existence.
    Mr. Fraser: Most of the new schemes and subsidies which the right hon. Gentleman has said were introduced since M.A.P. was first introduced in 1942 are subsidies available to farmers on the best land in the country. We are dealing here with a subsidy which is available to the farmers who are working the poorest land in the country. The first subsidy which the Secretary of State decides to take away is that available to farmers who are operating on the poorest land in the country.
    Mr. Maclay: That is not correct. Part way through the list which I read I said that certain schemes were of general

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    application, but that is not true of all of them. I will not go over the list again, but some of them are deliberately designed and applied to the hill farming industry. The hon. Member for Hamilton implied in his interjection that everything I outlined in the way of assistance was available to the richest as well as to the poorest farmer.
    Mr. Fraser: No.
    Mr. Maclay: That is what the hon. Member said.
    Mr. Fraser: No. I pointed out that after many additions had been made, the one subtraction which the Secretary of State seeks to make—and, incidentally, a subtraction with a view to providing another addition under Clause 1—is that which we are discussing. It is a subtraction made by taking money from people operating on the most difficult land in Scotland. They are the people who will make the sacrifice. Under Clause 1, on the other hand, some people operating on first-class land will qualify for subsidy. That does not seem right to me, nor does it seem right to the farmer.
    Mr. Maclay: We are concerned about this type of land and we are concerned to make certain that the methods for helping such farmers are right and are the best methods in all the circumstances. I am glad that every hon. Member who has spoken has welcomed the application of the small farmers' scheme in the Bill. I know that in blessing that part of the Bill they have not accepted that the other part of it is necessarily right.
    May I come to the second charge, that the M.A.P. assistance is being withdrawn rather sharply. I should recall that notice of impending changes was given by a statement in the last Annual Review White Paper and by Press publicity to the ending of the scheme on 31st August, 1958. While this made it clear that the whole future of the scheme was under review, I recognise that no definite indication of its probable outcome was available until the Bill and its associated White Paper were published in October and people had had time to think about them afterwards. It seems clear from what I have learned recently that a considerable number of marginal farmers in Scotland planned their farming operations for 1959 on the basis that, although there
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    would probably be changes, some assistance would still be available to them under the new proposals.
    5.45 p.m.
    This has been brought very strongly to my attention and I have noted it carefully. To help in this situation, we now propose that the M.A.P. scheme should be continued for a further year under existing powers, with the proviso that the assistance given to the larger farms—that is, those over 150 acres, crops and grass —should be on a reduced scale. The detailed application of all this will have to be decided in consultation with the A.E.C.s. I emphasise that under the Bill itself farms under 150 acres will rank for M.A.P. grant for three years within the discretion of A.E.C.s, as they do at present. The Bill lays down the period as three years, but the total period will now become four cropping seasons because of what I have just said about reintroducing the marginal scheme for this year, which we can do without altering the Bill and under existing powers.
    I have listened to what has been said in the debate and I have been studying very carefully all comments made, and this course of action which I have just outlined gives my colleagues and myself another opportunity for assessing the whole position. That assessment will, of course, be made.
    I should explain that since the previous M.A.P. scheme has lapsed it will be necessary to make a new scheme under Section 75 of the Agriculture (Scotland) Act, 1948, and a Statutory Instrument to that end is being prepared and will be ready as soon as possible. Agricultural executive committees will be given a revised allocation of money which will enable them to implement these proposals and farmers will be notified individually as quickly as possible how the proposals will affect them.
    I recognise that what I have said does not necessarily meet certain views which may have prompted hon. Members to put down the Amendments. I suggest that it shows, however, that I have been watching the situation and listening very carefully to informed opinion as I gathered it, and that I have paid due regard to it and am anxious to meet what could be a case of hardship where the relatively short time available for the consideration of all these matters has put people in

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    difficulties. In the circumstances, it may be too much to hope that the Amendment will be withdrawn, but I still hope that it will be withdrawn.
    Mr. Woodburn: I am sure that there is one point which we shall all welcome in the statement made by the Secretary of State—that further time has been given to think over this matter again. Nevertheless, I do not think that he has satisfied any of us on the main effect of the policy now being adopted.
    I apologise for not having had the advantage of being on the Standing Committee and being able to follow the debate in great detail. In that respect, the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) and I are in the same boat. As I understand, the Government have in mind some kind of farm which will be viable and which can live after all these things have been done. The farm has to live with the general subsidies and with the special subsidies which the Secretary of State elaborated. That is, a farmer who can live with all the other subsidies, with the exception of M.A.P. aid, will be allowed to survive.
    Is not that the ultimate policy? There are some farms which are not considered worth saving. Therefore, when M.A.P. aid is withdrawn, and other assistance is given to bring those farms into a viable position, those then able to live will be allowed to survive and those unable to do so will be allowed to die. Therefore, there must be in the minds of the Secretary of State and of the Department a number of farms in Scotland which will cease to exist as farms, and the men will have to move out of them altogether.
    It would be interesting to know what number of farms of that kind will go out of existence, according to the Secretary of State's calculations. When we on this side of the Committee had the responsibility of trying to revive British agriculture and get the land brought into a state in which it could produce a much bigger proportion of our food supplies, we had to think of the best methods calculated to achieve that end. I was convinced then, and I am still convinced, that the best method is by directional subsidy, that is a subsidy requiring something to be done and some definite clear result and not a subsidy giving general help whether or not anything is accomplished by it.
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    One of the problems which we were not able to solve was how to assist marginal farms which otherwise would not be cultivated without, at the same time, putting money into the pockets of people who had plenty already. That has always been the problem. If the Secretary of State has formed a view of the farm that could live on its bare earnings and the subsidies left over when M.A.P. aid goes, that must be the farm on which all the subsidies must be based. It follows that all the other farms on better land, with better possibilities, will obviously get much more advantage so that the fellow on the margin can live. That is the old story of Ricardo's economic rent, because once one gets above that one cannot avoid helping the farmers who are on the better land.
    I am told that in Slamannan, in my constituency, 150 acres of land are considered to be equivalent to 30 acres or less in East Lothian. Therefore, the poor man who is working on this "thin skin of soil," as my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Eraser) called it, cannot be compared at all with a man who is working on very much richer land. It may be that the Secretary of State has decided that these people who are wringing a living out of the soil would be better occupied in doing something else and that we should allow Caithness and Sutherland to go back to the wild. We on this side of the Committee took the view that agriculture was an essential part of the social life of the community, that Scotland should not be depopulated and that if people populated Sutherland, Caithness, Ross-shire and the Outer Isles it should be made possible for them to make a living on the soil.
    I should like the Secretary of State to tell us exactly at what level he has decided that the lowest economic farming in Scotland must be carried out, because the Bill means that below that level people must go out, whether to America or Canada, and leave Scotland to the deer and rabbits, though I am sure that the rabbits cannot live there, because there is not enough soil even for them to burrow into. It follows that it must be difficult enough for farmers to make a living there.
    I have tried to understand the policy which the Bill represents. I have not had the benefit of being a member of the Standing Committee, but I have read the

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    speeches made in Committee and I should like to know what the Secretary of State has decided. Apparently, he has decided that farms must be enabled to become economic units and he is prepared to give farmers capital grants to equip those farms. But no matter how much capital is put into some of these farms and no matter what amount of machinery is employed, there is at the end not sufficient soil to cultivate. It may be that Mr. Hobbs, in Fort William, can make an economic unit of his land by employing bulldozers, flattening out hillsides, and scattering on the soil material from his distillery. He may be able to so capitalise the land that it becomes an economic unit, but is all the investment that the nation has made in cattle production now to be thrown away, and is it to be said that we no longer need that capital and no longer need to cultivate all this land?
    There is no need of the Bill unless it eliminates the fringe. I understand that in the Orkneys the population is drifting into the bigger islands and the population there in turn drifts into Aberdeenshire and other places. Gradually, the fringes of Scotland are becoming steadily depopulated. I know of a village where there used to be 120 children at school, but there were only two on the last occasion that I visited it, and I suppose that for some considerable time now the school has been closed.
    The Bill is a further step in bringing to the centre the fringe of agriculture in Scotland. The Secretary of State should come clean and state his policy, because if we are to introduce new machinery in the form of this Bill we should have a clear picture of what the result will be. I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would tell us what type of farm he has in mind, how many he thinks will go out of existence and how far the population now occupied with agriculture in Scotland will be reduced when this policy is finally implemented.
    Mr. W. S. Duthie: I listened to the statement by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland with very considerable relief and not a little thankfulness. I look upon his statement as providing us with a breathing space now, and I suggest that that breathing space of one year should be used to the full to establish a true picture of marginal
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    farming in Scotland in all its aspects, with the help of the N.F.U. and the agricultural executive committees. I am particularly glad that the decision to exclude farms of 150 acres and over is now to be delayed, because it seemed to me that there was a tinge of savagery in the way in which they were to be summarily deprived of marginal aid.
    I feel very strongly that marginal farming in Scotland is a very special problem. Anyone who doubts that need only have seen the conditions under which marginal farmers were operating in the last few weeks in blizzards. Special consideration should and must be given to marginal farming in Scotland. While the Bill meets some of the need, it is not the answer. But now we have a year when we can make preparations in an unhurried atmosphere and when all the pros and cons can be weighed and ways and means can be devised to meet these needs. My predominent feeling at this stage is one of gratitude that we have got this breathing space.
    6.0 p.m.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: The hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Duthie) has talked about gratitude. All I can say is that he is thankful for very small and uncertain mercies, and I am sure that his gratitude will not be shared by the farming community in Scotland.
    Unlike my right hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), I had to sit in the Committee, and I did not think it was possible for anybody to put up a worse case for a Bill or with less knowledge of the agricultural position in Scotland than the noble Lord until I heard the Secretary of State for Scotland today, and in that respect he achieved what I regarded as the absolutely impossible.
    The position is this; it is the old story that we are all out of step except our Jocks. There are two of them. They have been completely deserted by every follower they have in Scotland, and when the question is put to them, "What is your long-term policy" they cannot give a reply. Of course we do not expect the right hon. Gentleman and the noble Lord to know. We have given up any hope of that. The right hon. Gentleman and the noble Lord talk about agriculture and say "You have one year's

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    reprieve". What a curious way of looking at the problem.
    I wonder what Sir William McNair Snadden will say about that one. He used to urge the Labour Government year after year for a long-term policy for food production in the Highlands. I do not know what he is thinking in retirement. All I know is that Lord Strathclyde is very glad that he resigned in time. And now the boys are left upon the burning deck and nobody envies them. They have antagonised everybody, even the landlords. I thought it was impossible for them to do that, but here today we have a statement from the Central Landowners' Association saying that they view with the gravest apprehension the Government's policy and they fall in line with the National Farmers' Union.
    That is what has been given them, a year. They did not listen to the criticism of the National Farmers' Union but the landlords have shifted them. Naturally the landlords, too, want to know what is the long-term plan, because of the previous Agriculture Bill, where we were told we must do away with the security of tenure so that they could get increased rents. Now the policy is so muddled, even for the landlords, that they are beginning to wonder where they will get the rents guaranteed to them in the previous Bill.
    I feel embarrassed about this. What am I going to do at the next election when the Central Landowners' Association comes along and offers me mass support? Imagine all the different noble Lords and landlords I have denounced for a lifetime, saying, "For goodness' sake take our motor cars because we have to vote for you in preference to the other fellows". This Government is absolutely discredited from left to extreme right now. How they will explain this situation in Galloway, I do not know. I hope they will send the two Jocks there and then the Government will lose its deposit.
    The hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) and I represent an agricultural area, and we have been egged on to oppose this Bill by whom? By the vice-chairman of the county council, who is a Conservative. He writes two well informed articles every week, one in the Scottish Farmer and the other in
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    the Kilmarnock Standard.For the last few months he has not had time to attack the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and me because he has been concentrating on the Government. Now the Government have not even got the support of the Tories in our constituencies, and the criticism of the vice-chairman of the county council is in the form of an explanation of why the Secretary of State for Scotland and the noble Lord are supporting this Bill. He says that it is the hare-brained child of Hare. The truth lies in that sentence. It is an English Bill and Scotland has been shoved in as an appendix. We are trying to remove the appendix.
    This criticism has come from the Conservative spokesman of the agricultural interests in our area. While we do not agree with him politically, we have to admit that agriculturally he is considered as good as any other agriculturist in Scotland or in the country generally, and he says that Scotland has ceased to matter very much these days and the Government just put it into English Bills. This is true. Even the Faculty of Advocates agrees with that now. Even the dean of the faculty of the lawyers in Scotland says that the Government have gone too far and are legislating for peculiarly Scottish matters merely by appendices to English Bills which they are ramming through these Committees, and the agricultural executive committees are run by English landlords. The next thing we can expect is a revolt of the landlords in the House of Lords.
    What is the meaning of this? The meaning is that the Government wanted to do something to try to get the farming vote at the next election which it lost through the last Agriculture Bill. The Government know very well that every intelligent farmer knows that this Tory Government took away from him security of tenure and are trying to dangle before the eyes of the farming community the idea that they are going to do something for the small farmer. I wonder why they have not tried to do something for the small shopkeeper at the same time?
    What does this mean for the small farmers? The Secretary of State says that everybody agrees with doing something for the small farmers, but what is it? We do not know. We do not know

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    who is to benefit in Scotland. Our problem will arise when our farmers write to us and request us to ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to look at the applications which have been turned down. I put a question to the noble Lord, and in view of the fact that we are likely to hear that this will give a great deal of benefit to the small farmers, I think we should devote some attention to it.
    If this is going to mean great benefit for thousands of small farmers in Scotland, what will be the increased cost of administration? If thousands of applications come in, at least some extra staff will be needed even to read the applications, to go round looking at the land, to consider what scheme should be approved. I put that question to the noble Lord and he did not know the answer at first—naturally we did not expect him to do so—but he went to the Box and came back with the answer. This was that there will not be any increase in staff in Scotland worth speaking about. So what is to be the benefit to the small farmer?
    No, this scheme is purely a piece of flashy, political window-dressing, as every intelligent farmer now recognises, and hon. Gentlemen opposite know it. How many hon. Members supported the noble Lord during the Committee stage? None of them did. The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley) supported the Government at first by saying he did not think the National Farmers' Union was opposed to this. I suppose the hon. Gentleman has become wiser now that the pages of the Scottish Farmer are full of the strongest possible criticism of the Government.
    I see the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Nairn) in his place. He has a majority of about 167, but that will disappear at the next election because the farmers will not vote for him next time. He has not yet realised it, but every hon. Member opposite has realised it. The position is indefensible and hon. Members opposite have never tried to defend it. What the hon. Member for Banff said was no defence. In Committee hon. Members opposite appealed to the noble Lord to be more flexible. They wanted their "hopes" to be more flexible. From the way they
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    ask for more flexibility, one would have thought that they were talking about elastic and not agriculture. The Government have proceeded in face of the opposition of land owners, farmers and their rank and file who have not had the courage of the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson). They have pushed the Bill through obstinately and stupidly against the wish of the whole agricultural community.
    There has been a series of leading articles on the subject in the Scottish Farmer,by no means a supporter of the Labour Party. Its leading article last week said that the wintry weather which we had had in Scotland had not had so chilling an effect on the farmer as the prospect held out by the Bill. There was a whole page devoted to speeches made by well-informed farmers a fortnight earlier. Hon. Members opposite can read what their farmer friends said about them. The report said:
    "Scottish farmers from Shetland to Galloway stand together in solid phalanx in their determination to keep on trying up to the last hour to persuade the Government to accept Amendments to the Agriculture (Small Farmers) Bill. The conference was marked by complete solidarity of view of over 40 representatives of all kinds of farming."
    I will not go into details and make it difficult for hon. Members opposite. They know the situation and they know that there will be questions at the next election, questions which Government spokesmen will not be able to answer. There is no doubt that every hon. Member who votes against the Amendment will vote against the interests and future of the farming community in Scotland. There was a time when Scottish farmers voted Tory because their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers had done so before them. If they have any commonsense, they will not do so next time. Instead they will turn out the Government overwhelmingly from every agricultural constituency.
    Sir J. Duncan: If the speech of the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) had been a little shorter, it would have been even more humorous and we would have enjoyed it more. However, his last few sentences were a tirade against the Government about the Bill generally and not about the Amendment, thus spoiling an otherwise humorous and acceptable

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    speech. The Council of the Scottish N.F.U., at a meeting on 4th November, 1948, said that it would do all in its power to make a success of the scheme, with which I do not now want to deal since it is not the subject of the Amendment.
    6.15 p.m.
    There has been a great deal of exaggeration, with the exception of my right hon. Friend's speech, about M.A.P. Even the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) did not understand the scheme, because he got mixed up about points which have nothing to do with the Amendment. My hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) also greatly exaggerated the effect of MA.P. M.A.P. is in addition to all the other things which did not exist when M.A.P. first came into existence.
    M.A.P. was started in 1941, at a time when our shipping was being sunk by enemy submarines and when the predominant need for Britain was to get the maximum grain production from every acre. There was no other method of helping hill farmers except M.A.P. Since then, we have had ploughing grants, hill farming livestock rearing legislation, hill cow subsidies and other schemes. The situation is that marginal land farmers, in addition to all those other things, still get M.A.P., only slightly altered from what it was in 1941.
    The Government have to decide whether in the country's changed economic circumstances that additional aid can be justified. My right hon. Friend suggested that there were two lines of thought: first, that there should be no change; and, secondly, that any change should not be too abrupt. He added that it was only right to say that MA.P. could not and should not be regarded as untouchable for all time. I do not want to argue that now, but I do agree with the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) that M.A.P. has shown less waste and produced more good results than any other farm subsidy scheme applicable to hill farmers.
    After my right hon. Friend's statement, it is obvious that the whole matter must be reconsidered since for big M.A.P. farmers the new proposals will end at the end of August of this year, so that
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    there is only one more year of MA.P. in a modified form left. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Banff (Mr. Duthie) that we must be grateful for my right hon. Friend's statement as far as it went, since it will give us time to reconsider the matter.
    If MA.P. is to be changed or continued, there is no logical reason why Scotland should not get it, even if the English choose not to have it any more. The conditions of land, climate and distances are very different in the two countries and there is a case for making M.A.P. exceptional for Scotland, and possibly for the hills of Wales, even though the English do not want it any more.
    We now get the new statement that the smaller M.A.P. farms—which can be interpreted as those with up to 150 acres of crops and grass and between 400 and 500 ewes; I believe that this is being left to the discretion of the agricultural executive committees—will receive a grant at a rate of 100 per cent. this year, and will be eligible under the M.A.P. scheme under Clause 3 for the subsequent three years. They therefore now have four years instead of three.
    We have been asked to vote against the Bill. It would be mad for those who have small M.A.P. farmers in their constituencies to throw away what was formerly three years' help and is now four years' help.
    Mr. Willis: We should not be doing that at all.
    Sir J. Duncan: In fact, we would.
    Mr. T. Fraser: No.
    Sir J. Duncan: I now want to deal with the larger M.A.P. farms, with more than 150 acres of crops and grass and more than 500 ewes. My right hon. Friend has said that they will receive a modified form of M.A.P. grant for this year, presumably meaning the year ending on31st August, 1959, because that is the end of the crop year. Most of them ought to have planned their production last autumn. They will not get very much done between now and the time to get on with it, in the way of replanning their production based upon the new assistance that they will get. They may have time to purchase their fertilisers and plant certain acres or reseed a certain field.

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    I would, therefore, ask my right hon. Friend to get out the Order under Section 75 of the 1948 Act tomorrow, if possible, so that detailed consideration can proceed at the earliest possible moment. He has said that consultations would take place with the executive committees. I hope that they will not be at arm's length. I hope that my right hon. Friend will call together the chairmen of the executive committees at Edinburgh on Friday and say, "Can you work these conditions? If so, do so, and we will put it right."
    If we start writing to each other from Inverness to Galloway, and try to get each executive committee to agree to everything, it will take a much longer time to get agreement on the new conditions. Speed will make all the difference to these people if they are to receive help this year and are to plan their production to the best advantage.
    As for the conditions, I would say that in 1941 the M.A.P. scheme was meant to be a form of assistance for growing crops, because we wanted the grain and everything that we could get. The idea now is to grow stock and not crops. The switchover is from grain at any cost to meat at economic prices. I interrupted the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) because I wanted to find out whether he believed that we should subsidise, at wholly uneconomic rates, everything that these people were now producing.
    In the switch-over to the new conditions we should concentrate the aid in the direction of rearing breeding stock —cattle, calves and sheep—and we should not encourage the growing of more grain or straw than is necessary for the economy of a stock farm. Nor should we encourage the growing of rape to fatten wedder lambs or wedder hogs. That is really the function of the low ground farmer. Thirdly, we should not encourage the growing of potatoes at the taxpayers' expense—because the grant has been from 85 to 95 per cent. The economy of these M.A.P. farms should be switched from their original purpose of growing grain at all costs to the new purpose of being reservoirs of store livestock.
    I believe that such a switch would be acceptable to those who will be feeling the draught of the abolition of M.A.P. in the future. If my right hon. Friend
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    can act with speed upon the lines that I have suggested it would be acceptable to all for this year, but I would urge the necessity for speed in the reconsideration of a long-term policy. I am grateful for the fact that everybody has been given an opportunity of rethinking the matter through the concessions which my right hon. Friend has been able to give.
    Mr. Neil McLean: I was very glad to hear my right hon. Friend say that he would continue the M.A.P. schemes for another year. I was also pleased to hear his assurance that he would keep the matter under review. If I understood him correctly, this means that he will have a definite review before the M.A.P. scheme comes to an end, but unless I have a more definite and categorical assurance that there will be a review of the workings of the new M.A.P. scheme and the small farmers' scheme I shall find it very difficult to support the Government in the Division Lobby against the Amendment.
    I would go further, and say that I do not think that the Amendment deals satisfactorily with one or two other worries that we have, one of which is that the farm of over 150 acres will be excluded even under the new M.A.P. scheme for this year. I do not know whether I understood my right hon. Friend correctly to say that such farms would be so excluded, but, if so, I would point out that the figure of 150 acres is a very arbitrary one. It may be all right in England, but everyone realises that it is a very different matter in Scotland, which has a different fertility of soil, different weather conditions, and longer distances from the markets. All these factors mean that this figure is arbitrary and not suited to farming in Scotland.
    Mr. Maclay: The words that I used were that we now propose that the M.A.P. scheme should be continued for a further year under existing powers, with the proviso that the assistance given to the larger farms—that is, those with over 150 acres of crops and grass—should be upon a reduced scale, but not wiped out altogether.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "a reduced scale"?
    Mr. McLean: I thank my right hon. Friend for that explanation. I hope that

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    6.30 p.m.
    the scheme which is to continue on a reduced scale will be tied in with the other schemes for helping marginal and hill farms, so that not a great deal of harm will be done to those farms of over 150 acres. It is most important that the judgment should be not on the size of the farm, but on the degree of marginality. I hope—and I think that he did say this—that in deciding which farms would be in the scheme and which would be out of it in this year's M.A.P. scheme, my right hon. Friend will be in very close consultation with the agricultural executive committees. I hope that in the review, and after the review and in the future working of the scheme, these committees will have a very definite say in what farms are to receive marginal aid. These are the people who know the local conditions.
    I am sure that all of us agree that the M.A.P. scheme has done a tremendous lot of good in the Highlands. Personally, I must admit that I would much prefer that the ploughing-up grant should go rather than the M.A.P. scheme, but at this stage it is too late to go into that. I hope that my right hon. Friend can give us a little more specific assurance about the working of this scheme, and that he will say that the supplementary M.A.P. scheme envisaged in the Bill will not come to an end in three or four years' time unless he has had a comprehensive review into the working of all these schemes.
    Mr. Willis: I wish to support the plea made by the hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. N. McLean), because it seems to me that the Secretary of State has not given a definite pledge about the future of this scheme. As I understand the statement which he has made, he is to continue the scheme for an additional year for farms of 150 acres and over, but at a reduced scale. He said that it would be restricted. I will come to the farms of under 150 acres in a moment, but the right hon. Gentleman said that for those of 150 acres and over, the scheme is to be continued for a year but on a reduced scale. [Interruption.]That is precisely what he said, and after that it ends.
    In any case, the death penalty comes into force there, as one hon. Member said, in about eight months' time, so that
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    all that we have got is a concession for eight months. In respect of the farms under 150 acres, the right hon. Gentleman has given an additional year. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is the same."] I know it is the same, but that makes four years under this Clause. The hon. Member has suggested that if we rejected the Amendment we would, in fact, be stopping this, but we would be doing nothing of the kind. We would be continuing it indefinitely by voting for our Amendment. Let there be no misunderstanding at all about this.
    What the right hon. Gentleman has not done, but what I think he ought to have done, was to say that if there was anything wrong about the present provision for the farms receiving marginal grants it would definitely be examined, but he did not say anything of that kind at all. All he said was that he would watch the situation; I think those were his words. That is not enough, because, allied to the question of watching the situation, we have also to take into account the fact that the Government are determined more and more to place agriculture on an economic footing and judge it in those terms. When the Government do that, of course, and they have been doing it increasingly, we are faced with the difficulty, in the Highlands and elsewhere, that farms cannot necessarily be made economic. We have to face that, and remember that there are wider implications involved here—social implications which cannot be met in purely economic terms.
    What my right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) said was quite correct. Either the withdrawal of these grants means something or it means nothing. If, in fact, it means something, it means that some farms will not be able to pay, and that in other cases the net income of the farm will be considerably reduced. In other words, the standard of living in the area is to be considerably reduced. That was the question put by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire. What we have not had today is an indication of the Government's estimate of the effect of this proposal in the Highland areas or in other areas where marginal land is exceedingly important.
    What is the number of farms affected? What is the fall in the standard of living

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    likely to be? During the Committee stage, the noble Lord the Joint Under-Secretary gave a figure of 3¾per cent. reduction in the gross income of farms, which has been exposed as being very little indeed. It means nothing at all. What will the actual effect be? The hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) said in his speech that any reduction of the standard of life of large numbers of these people who are in receipt of these grants spells disaster.
    Even if we accept the figure of the noble Lord, as applied by my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser), that reduction spells disaster for a very large number of farmers, and the right hon. Gentleman is not lessening that disaster by saying that he will continue the scheme for a year, unless, at the same time, he pledges himself to do something about it during that additional period. Up to the present, the right hon. Gentleman has not said that. He has said that we will watch it, but watching will not do very much. We want a definite undertaking that something will be done, and that he in fact intends to avoid that disaster.
    As the speeches which have been made have shown, this point has to be emphasised. We want to know what is in the Government's mind. Do they intend the farms in these areas to be shut down, go to waste or go over to wild life in the future? Is that their intention? If so, to what extent, if they intend this to be carried out, do they intend to survey all these grants with a view to ensuring that these people who are living in a state of fear today may know that the Government intend to do something to protect them?
    Mr. Michael Noble: I do not want to take up much of the Committee's time this evening, because a great many of the arguments which are relevant have already been produced, but I should like to refer to what the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) said when he explained how difficult it was for Governments to give the necessary help to the smaller people when they needed it, without, at the same time, giving too much to others.
    The whole course of this debate has, in fact, shown that the Government's broad view on this matter is the right
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    one, because all the speeches have been made on the basis that we who farm in the more difficult parts of the Highlands need a great deal of extra help of one sort or another. Whether it is for the purpose for which M.A.P. was originally intended or not is not, perhaps, always too relevant to the discussion, but we in the Highlands know quite well how often we are used as an argument for getting something for other people, and we get a little bit tired.
    I, for one, would certainly not agree with the statement made from the other side of the Committee that we should oppose this Bill, because the effect of that would be quite simply that some money would be wasted in other parts of the country while we should not get what we want in Scotland. I have great confidence that my right hon. Friends, who will be thinking about this problem in the next eight months, will devise a scheme by which the necessary help can be given to the people who need it. I know that it is easy for hon. Members opposite to express their lack of confidence, but I remember a little bit about the way they removed subsidies from the hill farmers before they went out of office.
    Mr. T. Fraser: The hon. Gentleman has accused hon. Members on this side of taking away subsidies from the hill farmers. Would he specify them? Would he tell us which ones they were?
    Mr. Noble: The calf subsidy was removed in 1950, although it was one of the most useful subsidies and was most necessary if we were to build up our beef population in the Highlands.
    Mr. Fraser: Does not the hon. Gentleman know the opinion of the National Framers' Union, and whether the N.F.U. wanted the calf subsidy in the first place?
    Mr. Noble: Hon. Members opposite are complaining that the Government are trying to stop the production of beef on the hills in Scotland and I am reminding them that they removed the calf subsidy which I, as a farmer who was trying to produce beef, knew was extremely important.
    Mr. Fraser: Did not the hon. Member and his Friends want it removed because they preferred to support the Livestock Bill which we introduced?
    Mr. Noble: It would be unwise for the hon. Gentleman to argue that the N.F.U. is always right. If he did, he might occasionally find himself in difficulties. I have confidence that my right hon. Friend will consider this problem carefully, and that there are ways in which money that we used wisely in the past can continue to be used wisely in the future.
    Mr. William Ross: I am surprised at what has been said by Government supporters. I believe that those acquainted with military tactics would tell them that when we have our man on the run we should keep on attacking. We have wrung a small concession from the Secretary of State for Scotland. What do Government supporters do? They go down on their knees and thank him for it, except for one hon. Gentleman, the Member for Inverness (Mr. N. McLean). I give him the credit due to him for his action, because I think his tactics were right. We should keep up the attack.
    What are we doing? We are not discussing a statement made by the Secretary of State for Scotland today, but an Amendment which would remove a limitation on additional help to small farmers after three years. If the Clause goes through without the Amendment because Government supporters do not vote for the Amendment, it will mean that the limitation will remain. The present discussion has been not on the Amendment, but upon a suggestion thrown out by the Secretary of State for Scotland that he will study the problem over the next eight months. There is only one problem that the Secretary of State will be worrying about over the next eight months; that is, how many of his Scottish Tory colleagues he will lose. One question will be whether the Joint Under-Secretary of State, who has a majority of about 200, will remain with him.
    The only thing that the Secretary of State for Scotland did not announce today was the date of the General Election. But he did tell us that the latest date will be October, which means limiting the uncertainty to this year. Judging by how long the M.A.P. is to be continued, the farmers can start getting worried next year, after the General Election. Anyhow, we have to thank the
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    right hon. Gentleman for the small mercy that the problem will be "thought of".
    What guarantee is there that the Secretary of State will do anything? We have here a great new revolutionary scheme. We were told by the hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan), in a most illogical speech, all about the background of M.A.P., how wrong it is now, and then he thanked the right hon. Gentleman for carrying it on.
    6.45 p.m.
    What the Secretary of State has conceded makes absolute nonsense of the whole Bill, and, in particular, of Clause 3. I invite the attention of Government supporters, who are concerned about what is happening in agriculture. The hon. Member for Argyll will get an awful shock from his Liberal and Labour opponents in the General Election. The kind of thing he said in the by-election was not the kind of thing he has said here today. In the General Election, some time this year, the hon. Gentleman's constituents will be concerned not about what happened in 1950, but about what has happened in the few months during which the hon. Gentleman has been fortunate enough to be a Member of Parliament.
    I invite Government supporters to have another look at the Amendment. The Minister has said, "I am making this change and I do not require any alteration in the Bill to enable me to do it. I already have the power." It means that the concession the right hon. Gentleman has given by continuing the M.A.P. 100 per cent. to farms of from 100 to 150 acres and at a reduced rate above 150 acres for this year, can be done out-with the Bill with the power that the right hon. Gentleman has under the 1948 Act.
    Mr. Maclay Mr. Maclay indicated assent.
    Mr. Ross: That is quite irrelevant to the Amendment. We can all accept what the right hon. Gentleman has said and thank him very much for it. Now we can return to consideration of the merits of the Amendment. What chance will there be of continuing marginal production grants after 1962, that is, after the three years for which consideration has been promised? It is the existence of this limitation that led the Scottish

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    National Farmers' Union to organise a marginal farm conference recently.
    I would quote the considered remarks in the 17th January, 1959, issue of the Kilmarnock Standard,an illustrious local newspaper with a very illustrous agricultural contributor. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) has pointed out, that contributor happens to be a Conservative member of the County Council, vice-convenor of the Ayr County Council and a leading expert on agriculture in Scotland whose technical advice is sought by the Department. I do not know anyone on the Government side who knows more about agriculture than Mr. William Young, of Skerrington Mains. He said:
    "The N.F.U. marginal land conference appears to have been a resounding success. Not that it may have brought out anything new, not merely because it displayed a most remarkable unanimity, but principally because speakers from every area of the Union, from the Shetland Islands to the Borders, produced facts and figures in support of their contentions that the M.A.P. assistance should be continued."
    Most of those farmers are represented in this House, not on this side but on the Government side. What have those hon. Gentlemen done about it? The hon. Member for Argyll, fresh from the hustings and with the whole spirit of revolt and determination to stand up for the farmers in the area—I believe he was chairman of the branch of the N.F.U. in his area—
    Mr. Noble: And I still am.
    Mr. Ross: The hon. Gentleman still is in that position—yet he thanks the Government. He will not be for long. When we consider the number of farmers in Central Ayrshire affected, and their sons, daughters and wives—the hon. Member is leaving the Chamber.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is my hon. Friend aware that the hon. Member will rescue the position for the next General Election by saying, "Vote Tory and get your posterior kicked"?
    Mr. Ross: He need not wait until the next election, but can join us in the Lobby tonight.
    I wonder whether the unanimity of the farmers has led the Government to take this action. Some people were surprised to learn that this time the Government
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    were opposed to Scottish landowners. It may be that that did it. Let us be under no delusion about what Scottish landowners are after. Their concern is rent. They are concerned with many farms marginal in character which have changed hands in the last dozen years let or sold which will have almost immediately to be revalued. The M.A.P. assistance will have to be on a very different level. Lord Howard de Walden has had, I think, more effect in respect of what he thinks he will lose in annual rent than the farmers in Ayrshire who may be his tenants.
    I sincerely hope that hon. Members opposite will not give up the fight. If they are to allow the smaller men who are not to get assistance under Clause 1 to lose on the average 10 to 15 per cent. of their net income hon. Members opposite are not worthy of the name of Scottish representatives. They have only one duty and it is a principle to which they have been committed in all that they have said to the electorate; and that goes, too, in respect of the youngest man of the lot who came to us recently from East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon). It is not to let them down, but to vote for this Amendment.
    I hope that the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson), who is a hard-headed man, will not be swayed by the irrelevant speech we have heard today about something which is being done outwith the Bill. After that is done the Bill will remain and the hon. Member has been in Parliament long enough to know what will happen. If he allows this to go, these words will remain in the Bill and what he fears might happen will happen after 1962. I suggest that we vote for the Amendment and I hope we shall have some accession of strength from the so-called fighters for agricultural freedom on the benches opposite.
    Sir Colin Thornton-Kemsley: The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) called the concession made by my right hon. Friend "flashy political window dressing," but we on this side of the Committee regard it as political realism, which we welcome. I think its value now lies in the opportunity which this one year's

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    stay of execution gives the Government— [Interruption.]I chose my words carefully. The opportunity this one year's stay of execution gives the Government is to study all the implications of the withdrawal of the marginal agricultural production scheme.
    Mr. Ross: Why did they not do it before?
    Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley: I cannot answer for the Government; I can only say what I hope they are going to do. On both sides of the Committee I think we can all agree on certain things. One hon. Member after another has spoken of the importance of marginal farming in the national economy. It replaces land lost to agriculture in other ways. Marginal farms are our next line of reserve to good agricultural land which so often is taken for building, for housing development, school playing fields, roads, airfields and so on. It assists the maintenance and expansion of agriculture on the lines laid down in the White Paper at the time of the 1958 Annual Review, which I have with me but do not propose to quote in view of the lateness of the hour.
    We all ought to recognise that the assistance which has been given in Scotland to marginal farms has resulted in a new look and a new life for something like 12,000 to 13,000 agricultural holdings in the Highlands and upland areas of the North. We are all well aware that since M.A.P. was introduced, as my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) and others have said, other help has been introduced which benefits the marginal farm. That other help and the fact that store cattle and mutton from the hills are selling well today in my view justifies some reduction in the scale and scope of marginal aid, but I do not think it justifies its withdrawal altogether.
    What I hope will emerge from the year's study which I hope the Government are to undertake, and the new look which they are going to direct towards marginal farms and marginal assistance generally, is that it will result in some sort of selective assistance where that is most required by the marginal agricultural producer. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus that in the light of the world's cereal situation
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    there is no longer the need for marginal farms to grow oats unless they can be grown in great abundance and relatively economically. I think we can ease off the encouragement to cereal production on marginal farms. But by contrast the need for beef store cattle is as great or even greater than it has ever been.
    Marginal agricultural production in Scotland, running at the full extent it reached in the current agricultural year, is estimated to cost only £1·21 million; that is for the whole marginal agricultural production scheme. Yet the ploughing-up subsidy in Scotland, strangely enough, is estimated at exactly twice that amount, £2·42 million a year. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness (Mr. N. McLean) that we ought to look at the ploughing-up subsidy. If we want to cut down anything, that is the sort of thing we should reduce and allow some of the money which goes to the ploughing up scheme to be spent on selective assistance to marginal farms.
    7.0 p.m.
    Mr. John Taylor: I had, unfortunately, to leave the Chamber while the Secretary of State made his statement, but I gathered immediately I came back that it was one of some importance. However, I confess to being puzzled because when I return to the precise and literal meaning of the Amendment I find myself in some procedural difficulty.
    The first Amendment we are discussing seeks to leave out the words, "not exceeding three years." The Secretary of State has asked us to reject that Amendment, but suggests an Amendment which has the effect of leaving out three years. It has the effect of making it four years. He is asking his hon. Friends to vote against this Amendment and yet has stated that it no longer has any effect.
    Mr. Maclay: I can well understand that the hon. Member had good reason for not being in the Chamber when I spoke, but that is not the effect of what I said, that three years become four. What I said was that it would produce four cropping seasons for M.A.P. grant. That is not the same thing.
    Mr. Taylor: I appreciate that. I still think, however, that it makes nonsense of the present wording of the Bill and also

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    of the following Amendment, which suggests the year 1962 as the outside limit of the maximum grant, whereas, in fact, it would be 1963. I cannot see how anyone logically or reasonably can oppose these Amendments when they are taken to a Division.
    Listening to all the spate of speeches and reading the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Committee proceedings upstairs, it seems to me that our Scottish Ministers have allowed themselves to be out-argued by accepting that this part of the Bill should apply to Scotland. One feels that had there been a separate Scottish Bill this part would never have been in, certainly not in its present form, certainly not with these dates and time limits, certainly not with these acreage limits, certainly not without any reference to the quality of marginality, and certainly a number of other arguments, qualifications, reasons, which apply so strongly in Scotland and make our case so overwhelmingly clear as it has been made this evening.
    After a few years in Parliament one notices that there are occasions when a Government, having seen they have been mistaken and having gone so far to make concessions to attempt to meet the case half way, would be much wiser—and, when they do so, are much wiser—to concede the point which has been made on both sides with emphasis and logic. It seems that this is one of the occasions where, with credit to themselves, they could accept the case as it stands without any sacrifice of principle. It is a small matter on the whole in comparison with the major part of the Bill. I hope that even now the Government will be able to go that one step further and to accept these Amendments and still watch the situation.
    If it is necessary to make changes it is just as easy, and very much better, to make those changes in the status quo than to say, opposed as they are by the whole farming community of Scotland, "We will see whether the farming community is proved right and then make the changes." They should leave it as it is and, if it is found possible by adjusting ploughing-up grants—I support what has been said from both sides of the Committee on that—to pay for those changes. That would be a better, more sensible and statesmanlike way of approaching the problem.
    Mr. John MacLeod: I think it was a pity that this Bill and the M.A.P. grants should have been so closely mixed up. That certainly confused a great many farmers in the first instance and I think it was a mistake by the Government. However, I certainly welcome the concession made in the statement by the Secretary of State today because I hope it means that he has taken note of all the representations which have been made to him.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Only those by the landlords.
    Mr. MacLeod: Do not talk nonsense; they have been made very widely and many of my constituents are seriously worried about the matter.
    There is no doubt that in my constituency, a Highland constituency, great use has been made of M.A.P. That little addition has meant a great deal, particularly in the remote area where transport charges mean an increased burden on those benefiting from M.A.P. I hope my right hon. Friend will not only assess, but review the situation, certainly in the Highland areas, in respect of hill farmers who have benefited.
    For social reasons alone we must make up our minds. I think that the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) was right—[An HON. MEMBER: "He is always right."] He is not always right, but he was right when he asked how much we were justified in pouring money into areas which are not economic but where we have to do that for social reasons. In remote areas agriculture is our main industry and in certain parts of my constituency it is the only industry. It is very important that we should help people living in those areas. I do not think that the Secretary of State has fully appreciated the implications of doing away with this grant. I hope that this is not only another year of life for the grant, but that he will seriously review it and give us another statement in eight months' time.
    Mr. T. Fraser: It is some comfort to me to have heard hon. Members today saying that the money for this could easily have been found by making some reduction in the ploughing-up grants. I was very pleased to hear the excellent speech of the hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. N. McLean), supported in

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    some measure by the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. John MacLeod). It is within the recollection of some hon. Members that when the Bill came before the House in 1952, and on every occasion when we have had a scheme since, I have said that ploughing-up grants in many parts of the country were a plain waste of public money. Of course money could be taken from the ploughing grants and devoted to this purpose at no cost to the Exchequer.
    What I principally want to say is that the Secretary of State has misled the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, because he has not made a concession.
    Mr. Maclay: I did not say that I had.
    Mr. Fraser: I did not say that the Secretary of State said that he had made a concession but that he had misled the Committee. How many hon. Members have thanked the right hon. Member for a concession? Now he says he did not make a concession.
    Mr. Maclay: Let us get the words straight. I was trying to disentangle whether the hon. Member was accusing me of deliberately misleading the Committee. What I said has not misled the Committee. I made a statement and do not remember using the word "concession" at all.
    Mr. Fraser: The right hon. Gentleman did not make a concession. He could not make a concession about the time M.A.P. will run without an amendment of the Bill. The Bill says that the scheme will run for a period of not more than three years and will terminate in July, 1962. May I take those hon. Members who have been falling over themselves and saying "Thank you" to the right hon. Gentleman with me in tracing the matter backwards? If the last year of the scheme is 1962, the second year of the scheme would be 1961 and the first year would be 1960. There was the assumption that the present scheme would be operating this year, which is 1959. It had never occurred to me for a moment that the grant in respect of the cultivations which are being carried out under the existing law and qualifying under the existing law would be with-
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    drawn after this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament.
    What the Secretary of State is now saying is that if he had not made this statement on this Amendment this afternoon those farmers who had made their plans for this year's operations would not have got the grant under the existing law. That would have been a monstrous position. It had never occurred to me that the grants would not be paid in the year 1959.
    Mr. Maclay: The hon. Gentleman will remember that I said that publicity was given that the scheme would come to an end at the end of last August. He seems to have missed that.
    Mr. Fraser: I certainly did miss the proposition that the scheme would come to an end in 1958. Indeed, whoever drafted this Bill must have missed it, too, because the Bill says that the three-year scheme which the Secretary of State now says is to start in 1959 shall end in 1962. Why not 1961? If the first year is 1959, the second year must be 1960 and the third year 1961. Why does the Bill mention 1962? I do not say the right hon. Gentleman has done so intentionally, but he has certainly misled the Committee. I challenge any hon. Member on either side of the Committee to say that he believed when we were originally considering this Bill that the existing law which has not been repealed had come to an end.
    Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley: May I remind the hon. Gentleman of the Statutory Instrument No. 1396 of 1957 entitled "Agricultural Grants, Goods and Services. The Marginal Agricultural Production (Scotland) Scheme, 1957." Paragraph 2 says:
    "… there shall be substituted a reference to the 31st day of August, 1958."
    The Explanatory Note says:
    "This scheme extends the time within which offers of assistance may be made under the Marginal Agricultural Production (Scotland) Scheme, 1949, by one year to 31st August, 1958."
    Mr. Fraser: I do not understand the relevance of that intervention. All of those provisions are made for a period and have a terminal date written into them. I think hon. Members opposite must be guilty of some hypocrisy if they knew that this was coming to an end

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    and they never said a word against it having been brought to an end, and are now grateful for an indication that it is to be continued for another year. Why should they be grateful for something which they had already accepted? Of course, they had not accepted it at all, because they did not know about it. None of us believed that the operations which were being carried on were not going to attract the grants to which farmers were entitled under the 1948 Statute.
    The justification for the Secretary of State continuing this grant for another year, albeit in a modified form, was that plans had already been made for the cultivations and farm operations in 1959. So the right hon. Gentleman feels obliged to continue the grant. That can mean only one thing, namely, that he believed that the farmers were prepared and made their plans for 1959 in the expectation that the grant would be paid. Do hon. Members opposite who say they knew about this challenge that statement? The Secretary of State has made this so-called concession because the farmers had made their plans for the 1959 operations. Did they not make those plans on the assumption that the Marginal Agricultural Production grant would be available to them? Of course they did.
    Mr. Maclay: I am sorry to have to repeat my previous speech, but apparently it is essential that I should do so. I could repeat my exact words if I had a moment or two to find them.
    Mr. Willis: We should prefer it in the right hon. Gentleman's own language.
    Mr. Maclay: It is in my own language. I do not think there is any need to make that kind of remark. I said in my opening speech that they must have known that the previous scheme was coming to an end, and I think some of them assumed that there would be some modified form of assistance available and they made their plans accordingly.
    7.15 p.m.
    Mr. Fraser: The Secretary of State has recognised that farmers made their plans on the assumption that M.A.P. would be available. So he says, "I feel obliged to continue with the grant for another year." Quite apart from the proposition that the farmers made their plans believing that the grant would be available,
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    the logic of what the right hon. Gentleman has now said is that he had assumed that the farmers would have reduced their cultivations and operations in 1959 if they fully understood that M.A.P. would not be available to them. Is that not so?
    But then have not those who argued for the discontinuance of M.A.P. argued that it is no longer necessary as an inducement? Now the Secretary of State has made it quite clear by the only kind of deduction that one is entitled to apply in this case that he had assumed that those farmers who had hitherto enjoyed M.A.P. grants would have reduced their cultivations in 1959. He must be making the assumption that they will further reduce their operations in 1960. Our complaint is that this is leading to the land being put out of agricultural use. That is the complaint of the National Farmers' Union, of the landowners and of everyone who has made any study of this subject at all.
    It is a strange attitude for hon. Members opposite to adopt, to say that they are grateful for this additional year— that is what the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley) said—for which they did not ask. He does not believe in it in any case, because he thinks the scheme should have come to an end, but he is grateful because, he says, it will give time to rethink the question. Why should the Secretary of State be thanked by his hon. Friends for throwing this whole industry into chaos and then for undertaking to have a look at the chaos that he has created?
    If the Secretary of State wished, he could modify the M.A.P. scheme at any time. The particulars of the M.A.P. scheme are not written into statute. The amount of money is not written into statute. The different grants for the different degree of marginality are not written into statute. These things are all subject to the discretion of the Secretary of State. He could modify the marginal agricultural production scheme any year—every year if he wished. He could go ahead with his discussions with the N.F.U. He could do his re-thinking all the time. As a matter of fact, I think he is obliged by Statute to continue re-thinking all the time.
    I used to have these discussions with the N.F.U. and the various branches. The

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    hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) once came to see me because we had had to reduce the grants to some of his farming constituents. We had taken the advice available to us and had formed the view that the fertility of the land had so improved as a result of the grants that had been given, the degree of marginality had grown less and, therefore, the grant had to be reduced.
    The hon. Member said "Is this the reward that we get for our hard work?" to which our reply was "No, this is only evidence that your income from other sources has improved, because your land is less marginal than it was as a result of the operations that you carried out with our assistance. That is how this scheme works." Hon. Members opposite who claim to have some knowledge of this matter because they are farmers do not seem to realise that. The scheme differs from one county to another. The Secretary of State and the executive committees have much more discretion in the operation of this subsidy than in any other agricultural subsidy. Hon. Members who think that we should use the next eight months or a year in re-thinking and should introduce M.A.P. in another form either do not know what they are talking about—I say that advisedly—or they are misleading their constituents. I hope that it is the former.
    Sir J. Duncan: Is the hon. Member seriously suggesting that any farmer with over 150 acres is in receipt or in expectation of receipt of M.A.P.?
    Mr. Fraser: I do not want the hon. Member to divert me from what I was saying. I said that any hon. Member who says that this period of grace should be used for rethinking is either talking in ignorance or is deliberately misleading. I hope that it is the former.
    The Secretary of State will either confirm or contradict what I have said. He is perfectly free to rethink on this matter and modify the scheme whenever he wishes. If hon. Members opposite consider that marginal farmers have a problem which is worthy of attention and which should earn support from central funds which is not available to the generality of farmers, let them not decide by
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    their vote that the kind of assistance that those farmers receive should come to an end in 1962. Once the Secretary of State and hon. Members opposite know what they want for the future of marginal farmers in Scotland, that would be the time to come along with a Bill to discontinue the existing statutory provisions and to bring forward a Bill to withdraw M.A.P. grants as we know them now.
    The Under-Secretary said in Committee that the Government would have another look at this matter. It was said that they know there is a problem which they will continue to examine, and let us use this period of grace to examine the problem. Let the Government consider whether the present M.A.P. system is satisfactory, or let the Secretary of State modify it in any way he wishes. He has power to do that. If he thinks that the scheme should have a different name, let him determine what it should be and come forward with the appropriate legislation when he is ready. He should not, however, disturb the present form of assistance without serious consideration.
    I hoped that the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. M. Noble) would return to the Chamber before I resumed my seat. He chided us on this side with having taken away subsidies from those same people. I deny that emphatically. I remember our discussions with the N.F.U. at the time. I do not know whether the hon. Member was then a farmer in Argyll or an official of the N.F.U. If he was, he should have known the position. If he did not know the position, he ought not to have misled the House as he did. At that time the N.F.U. of Scotland said that the hon. Gentleman, who is a hill farmer, was not getting the calf subsidy. His union said that he was not getting the benefit of the scheme, but today he said that he was.
    At that time the union told me that the hill farmers always sold calves off the farm before they were earmarked and before they earned the subsidy, and it was the farmer on the lush land who was to fatten the calves who got the subsidy. It was said that the subsidy should be discontinued and another way found to help the hill farmer. But the hon. Member must know that we agreed a global sum for what we thought should be the income of the farmers, and within the global sum

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    we thought out what kinds of subsidy should be paid and what minimum guaranteed prices should be given in respect of different commodities. The granting or withdrawal of the calf subsidy did not make any difference to the Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. M. Noble: What the hon. Gentleman says may or may not be true. I was not present at any conference he had with the N.F.U. It certainly is not true to say that no hill farmer received the calf subsidy, because many of them did, including myself. But if in withdrawing this scheme the N.F.U. had other plans for helping the hill farmer, it would have been useful to us to have had the benefit of them, but we received nothing extra.
    Mr. Fraser: I know that he is a very new Member, but the hon. Gentleman ought to have a better memory. Has he never heard of the Livestock Rearing Act, 1951? Was not that Act calculated to help the marginal farmers of Scotland? Of course it was. If I said that no hill farmer ever received the calf subsidy, then I was misleading the Committee. I hope, however, that I did not say that. The N.F.U. told us that the subsidy was not going to the hill farmer. [AN HON. MEMBER: "To the marginal farmer."] There are many marginal Members in the Committee this evening.
    The argument for removing the time limit on the payment of M.A.P. grants is not a request for any more money from the Exchequer. We are not asking for more money from the Exchequer. We say that the money that goes into agriculture should be more sensibly distributed. If subsidies are to be withdrawn, let them be the subsidies for which there is not an urgent need. Let the Government reduce the ploughing grants. It is interesting that many farmers who get the benefit of ploughing grants but not M.A.P. grants have been saying in recent times that the ploughing grants should be reduced and the money utilised to continue M.A.P. grants. I hope that that will be done.
    The hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) said that he was delighted that the Secretary of State had given this stay of execution. His constituents, however, are not so' silly as to
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    be pleased that they are to be executed in 1960 instead of 1959 or 1959 instead of 1958. The hon. Member, too, was one of those who thought that we should have an opportunity to consider what other help should be given to marginal farmers. If hon. Members think that help should be given to farmers of this type of land, then they should support the Amendments. If they vote against them, they will be guilty of voting in favour of discontinuing M.A.P. before we know what other measures can be introduced to take its place.
    Mr. Maclay: I have listened with the greatest attention and interest to the debate. I repeat, however, what I said earlier, namely, that it seems to me that hon. Members opposite and the Government have the same objective. Certain assumptions which are not proved have been made by some hon. Members about the workings of our proposals. We are all concerned about marginal and hill land. There are, however, differences of view in the Committee and outside about what will be the effects of our proposals.
    The right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) specifically asked how many farms we thought would go out of existence and what would be the effect on production. The short answer is that I am not convinced that any farms will necessarily go out of existence. There is no evidence to show that they will. What hon. Gentlemen have failed to realise is that one is not necessarily tied to one method of working one's farm for all time, and, if there is an alteration in method of subsidy, there may be other methods of working one's farm.
    It has been said that there will be a serious effect on beef, on beef stores in particular. We are, I know, all concerned about beef stores, but, equally, I have been told repeatedly by the farming community and others in recent years that the trouble with the world and ourselves is a shortage of beef, and there must be an extremely active market in beef coming along. I am not forecasting; I am merely basing my remarks on what I have been told. Let us, therefore, get rid of the idea that something absolutely cataclysmic will happen to farming if things go along the lines I have indicated.
    7.30 p.m.
    Mr. Woodburn: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has given us an assurance that the calculations of his Department show that what is proposed will not lead to farms going out of existence. But two or three of his hon. Friends today have justified his action by saying that, during the war, we spread the margin up the hills and we spread the margin out to farms which were not economic, and they welcomed this proposal on the ground that it would get rid of uneconomic farms. They challenged us to say whether we wanted to maintain uneconomic farms.
    Mr. Maclay: There may be uneconomic crops. I listened to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) with intense interest. He obviously knew precisely what he was talking about.
    Mr. T. Fraser: He obviously did not know what he was talking about.
    Mr. Maclay: He plainly knew very much what he was talking about and put forward some very interesting proposals which are well worth watching and considering.
    I do not want to let the debate on these Amendments end on the suggestion that something fantastic is happening. It is not. There is no question about that. It is one particular type of assistance which has been modified and which is to come to an end at a certain time under the proposals in the Bill. I shall not go over again, because I have had to do so several times in interjections, precisely what I said about continuation for this year. I think the implications of that are fully understood.
    Mr. Ross: The right hon. Gentleman made the announcement about continuation for this year. Was he, in this case, speaking for England and Wales as well as Scotland? Is the continuation to apply only to Scotland?
    Mr. Maclay: Yes, it applies only to Scotland, as I think the hon. Gentleman knows. There are separate Scottish schemes for the M.A.P. grants.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Inverness (Mr. N. McLean) asked what I meant when I said that I should be looking at the matter again. The words I used
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    were that "this course of action will also give further opportunity to the Government for assessing the position." At another part of my earlier speech I used words which had been used previously by my noble Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State, that it is clearly the Government's intention and duty and desire to keep the closest watch on all the farming situation as it develops, particularly, for example, in the beef and sheep industries in relation to successive annual price reviews.
    What I think my hon. Friend was wondering was whether I would say positively, in so many words, that, in the course of the months ahead, I would reexamine precisely what would happen with regard to M.A.P. It must be clear from what I have said that we are watching how we can, in the best possible way, give effective help to the marginal farms. As we study the matter, we will do whatever we feel to be right. I still feel that the arguments against our proposals have been over-emphasised but, if it should even prove that they are, in effect, right, and it is true that production of certain types will alter and people may even go out of existence as farmers on a scale which would be unacceptable —one can never be certain about every individual farm in the country, of course —if all these things occur, then, of course, one will be examining the whole thing, and some kind of M.A.P. concept may be right—
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: It is the right hon. Gentleman's job, anyway.
    Mr. Maclay: Of course it is. I should warn the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), referring to his speech, that he should be very careful not to make another like it, or I shall make another one in Cumnock.
    I hope that I have made it clear to my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness and to others who are understandably concerned about it that my words were very deliberately chosen in my earlier speech, and that in any examination of the problem of marginal farms we shall go on, as we always do, with the idea of seeing how we may be certain to make the best possible use of the land in question.

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    Not very many specific questions were asked of me. I think that I have dealt with those which were put. I end by saying, as I said at the end of my opening remarks, that I do not imagine that what I have said will necessarily mean that some of those supporting the Amendments would wish to withdraw them. I had hoped that they would, and I still hope that they will, but I do not wish to be under any illusion or try to mislead the Committee by suggesting that what I have done is a modification which would meet those Amendments. Obviously, it is not. However, the principle of what I have said shows that we are completely concerned, as we always have been, about getting the best possible results for Scottish farming. We are very concerned about marginal farms and very concerned to see that proper use of that resource of Scotland is made.
    With reference to something said by the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Lothian (Mr. J. Taylor), I will say that in the whole working out of the Bill, we have been thinking very carefully indeed about the Scottish implications from the word, "Go". We have not dragged at anybody's heels. That old charge has been made for far too long. I still think that we can, through the various methods I described in my opening speech, in a continuing study of the problem, make certain that the best use is made of this part of our Scottish country about which hon. Members have expressed so much concern.
    Mr. T. Fraser: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered a rather important question which I put. Does he not have power under the existing Statute to modify the marginal agricultural production scheme in any way he will, to reduce the amount of money made available to farmers under the scheme? Does he not have all the power in the world to do this at the present time?
    Mr. Maclay: I am not at all clear as to the relevance of that.
    Mr. Fraser: This is the one opportunity we have of taking a decision on a matter of very great importance to the farmers of Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman says that he does not see the relevance of my question. I will explain it once again.
    282
    His hon. Friends who support him, who said that they will feel obliged to support him against the Amendments today, in view of the statement he has made, have pleaded with him to consider what alternative, modified scheme to help marginal agricultural production will be available or will be worked out in the future. They are giving him eight or twelve months to look at all this and bring forward his alternative scheme.
    Those hon. Members have assumed that there is a scheme under Statute which must be adhered to and that it would take a new Act of Parliament to bring about any modifications. I assert that that is not so. That is a false conception. The right hon. Gentleman could modify the M.A.P. scheme for Scotland next year to provide that the total amount would be not £1·21 million but £600,000. He could do that. He must do something like that. He has power to do it at any time. He could make it £500,000. He could reduce it still more. He could cut out a great many farmers who are now receiving grants under the existing powers. He could, with the greatest of ease under the existing powers, reduce the number of farmers receiving grants by 25 per cent.
    The right hon. Gentleman may smile, but I regard this as extremely important. He may not agree. Under the M.A.P. scheme, he gives a grant to farmers in respect of particular cultivations. He gives a grant in support of fertilisers, feeding stuffs, seeds, and what not. He could decide to cut some of those things out of his existing scheme if he wanted to, or decide to reduce the percentage grant in respect of those things. He can do all those things under the existing powers. Am I right in making those assertions or am I not? If I am not right, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how far he is limited in modifying or adjusting the schemes at the present time?
    Mr. Maclay: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the short answer is that these schemes are made annually, and there is considerable flexibility under them. With the greatest respect, although I concede that, from a political debating point of view, he can try to make that point relevant, I cannot see that it is relevant to my own argument.
    Question put,That "not exceeding three years" stand part of the Clause:—
    The Committee divided:Ayes 202, Noes 176.

    Division No. 20.]

    AYES

    [7.41 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Aitken, W. T.

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

    Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Armstrong, C. W.

    Gurden, Harold

    Nairn, D. L. S.

    Ashton, H.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

    Atkins, H. E.

    Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

    Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

    Baldwin, Sir Archer

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

    Noble, Michael (Argyll)

    Balniel, Lord

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Barter, John

    Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

    O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Batsford, Brian

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Baxter, sir Beverley

    Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

    Page, R. G.

    Beamish, Col. Tufton

    Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

    Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

    Peel, W. J.

    Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Bidgood, J. C.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Biggs-Davison, J. A.

    Hobson, John(Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Bingham, Ft. M.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Pitt, Miss E. M,

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Hope, Lord John

    Pott, H. P.

    Bishop, F. P.

    Hornby, R. P.

    Price, Henry (Lewisham; W.)

    Black, C. w.

    Horobin, Sir Ian

    Ramsden, J. E.

    Bossom, Sir Alfred

    Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

    Rawlinson, Peter

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Redmayne, M.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Braine, B. R.

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

    Hurd, A. R.

    Ridsdale, J. E.

    Bryan, P.

    Hutchison, Michael Clark(E'b'gh, S.)

    Rippon, A, G. F.

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh,W.)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Ropner, Col, Sir Leonard

    Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron Walden)

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Carr, Robert

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Sharples, R. C.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portstmth, W.)

    Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Speir, R. M.

    Corfield, F. V.

    Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

    Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Joseph, Sir Keith

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Kaberry, D.

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Kimball, M.

    Storey, S.

    Deedes, W. F.

    Lagden, G. W.

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

    de Ferranti, Basil

    Lambton, Viscount

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Drayson, G. B.

    Langford-Holt, J. A.

    Teeling, W.

    Duncan, Sir James

    Leavey, J. A.

    Temple, John M.

    Duthie, W. S.

    Legge-Bourke, MaJ. E. A. H.

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Elliott,R.W.(Ne'castle upon Tyne. N.)

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Loveys, Walter H.

    Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

    Fell, A.

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Tilney, John (Wavertree)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Freeth, Denzil

    Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    McLean, Neil (Inverness)

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Gibson-Watt, D.

    Maddan, Martin

    Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

    Glover, D.

    Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W.(Horncastle)

    Webster, David

    Godber, J. B.

    Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

    Whitelaw, W. S. I.

    Goodhart, Philip

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Gower, H. R.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside)

    Mathew, R.

    Wolrige-Gordon, P.

    Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

    Mawby, R. L.

    Woollam, John Victor

    Green, A.

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Mr. Legh and Colonel J. H. Harrison.

    NOES

    Abse, Leo

    Balfour, A.

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Ainsley, J. W.

    Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

    Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

    Albu, A. H.

    Blackburn, F.

    Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Bowles, F. G.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Boyd, T. C.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Boardman, H.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Bonham Carter, Mark

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Paton, John

    Champion, A. J.

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Pearson, A.

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Janner, B.

    Peart, T. F.

    Cliffe, Michael

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Pentland, N.

    Clunie, J.

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena (Holbn & St.Pncs, S.)

    Popplewell, E.

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech(Wakefield)

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Cove, W. G.

    Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

    Probert, A. R.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Rankin, John

    Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Rhodes, H.

    Davies, Rt. Hon.Clement(Montgomery)

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

    Key, Rt. Hon, C. W.

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Lawson, G. M.

    Robertson, Sir David

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Ledger, R, J.

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Deer, G.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Ross, William

    Diamond, John

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Short, E. W.

    Dodds, N. N.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

    Logan, D. G.

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    McAlister, Mrs. Mary

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    McCann, J.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    MacDermot, Niall

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Fernyhough, E.

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Fitch, Alan

    McLeavy, Frank

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Fletcher, Eric

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

    Stones, W. (Consett)

    Forman, J. C.

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Mahon, Simon

    Summersklll, Rt. Hon. E.

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    George, Lady Megan Lloyd(Car'then)

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Tomney, F.

    Gooch, E. G

    Mellish, R. J.

    Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Grey, C. F.

    Messer, Sir F.

    Viant, S. P.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Wade, D. W.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Warbey, W. N.

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Monslow, W.

    Watkins, T. E.

    Grimond, J.

    Moody, A. S.

    Wells, Peroy (Faversham)

    Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert (Lewis'm, S.)

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Hale, Leslie

    Mort, D. L.

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Moss, R.

    Willey, Frederick

    Hannan, W.

    Moyle, A.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Hastings, S.

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Williams, Richard (Openshaw)

    Holman, P.

    Oram, A. E.

    Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

    Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

    Oswald, T.

    Winterbottom, Richard

    Howell, Denis (All Saints)

    Owen, W.J.

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Hoy, J. H.

    Paget, R. T.

    Woof, R. E.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Yates, V. (Ladywood)

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Zilliacus, K.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Hunter, A, E,

    Pargiter, G. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Parker, J.

    Mr. John Taylor and Mr. J. T. Price.

    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Bill reported, without A mendment; as amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

    Clause 1.—(SCHEMES FOR GRANTS FOR INCREASING EFFICIENCY OF SMALL FARM BUSINESSES.)
    Mr. Frederick Willey: I beg to move, in page 1, line 7, after "grants", to insert:
    "which in some cases may be made repayable subject to such conditions as the Minister may determine".
    We can claim a little ingenuity in draftsmanship in having succeeded in raising the point that we discussed in Standing Committee. In an earlier discussion today, it was clear that there is a sharp division between the two sides of the House on the question of co-
    286
    operation. We get a lot of lip-service from the Government about co-operation in agriculture. We do not get effective action and we know why. It is because the lobby of the middlemen is a very real lobby in the Conservative Party. So it is with regard to the question of credit that we are discussing on this Amendment.
    Everyone who has studied agriculture knows that one of its urgent needs is better credit facilities. That is reaffirmed in the recent Report of the Grassland Utilisation Committee. We cannot get any effective action from the Government, because they are subject to the bankers' lobby. The bankers are not anxious that we should extend publicly the provision of credit to agriculture. I do not want to pursue this at length, because it was discussed in Standing Committee. It is, however, a matter of great regret that

    287
    although this was one of the matters discussed between the Government and the producers at the time the Government issued their White Paper on long-term assurances, still we have no action from the Government concerning agricultural credit.
    In the Amendment, we are not suggesting that loans should be an alternative to grants. We believe, as does the National Farmers' Union, that the grants should be supplemented by provision in one form and another for loans. One of the major reasons for this is that we share the concern expressed by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), who said, with his usual stringency, that the Bill and the provision that the Government intend to make under it are inadequate.
    As the House knows, the National Farmers' Union suggested that the husbandry grants should be supplemented by farm business loans. We made it clear in Standing Committee that we are not committing ourselves on the question of what interest there should be upon any such loans, but we would certainly argue that there is a case for preferential rates of interest. Because we share the views of the N.F.U. and the producers that the Government's proposals are inadequate, we believe that further provision should be made for loans to assist the small farmer.
    The Government failed to persuade the National Farmers' Union that their proposals are adequate. As a result, the N.F.U. remains dissatisfied, and so do we. We have had a very inadequate reply from the Government so far. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary will remember that when we argued the case for provision by way of loan, one of the Government's arguments was that the advisory officers were not the best people to determine the creditworthiness of a farmer. This is not an argument that we can accept, because we are dealing here with a scheme to provide, quite properly, assistance to the small farmer, but at the expense of the other farmers.
    If the advisory officers can give advice that results in the taking of other people's money and giving it to the small farmer, they must be equally able to advise about giving loans to such a farmer. If we are
    288
    concerned with the relationship between the advisory officer and the farmer, the provision of a loan should assist that relationship. If we are to put our trust and confidence in someone, I can think of no better way of doing it than by loan.
    The Minister knows quite well that he made a fool of himself when he expressed his views about this and he upset many farmers. I do not want to make too much of this, but, again, I remind the Minister, as I did in Standing Committee, that he said:
    "The sort of chap whom we are trying to help is not the sort of chap who likes to have loans, and I shall be very sorry for any successor of mine who tried to get the money back."—[OFFICIAL REPORT,Standing Committee A,25th November, 1958; c. 7.]
    That gives the lie to the White Paper, which specifically argues that the purpose of the scheme is to make the small farmer more creditworthy and it is a vote of no confidence in the proposals which the Government are now making.
    It is because, like the small farmers themselves, we are upset by this attitude of the Minister, betraying the fundamental approach of the Government that this is no more than a dole to the small farmer to alleviate matters for a few years, that we beg the Minister to reconsider the question of loans. If he would make provision for loans, he would show that he had more confidence in the proposed scheme that he has explained in his White Paper and he would show a more constructive and continuing regard for the small farmer.
    For these reasons, I hope that the Minister will accept the Amendment in this rather modified form and make provision for the possibility of providing loans further to aid the small farmer.
    Mr. M. Philips Price: I hope that the Minister will reconsider this matter, various aspects of which we discussed in Committee, when the Government and the Minister did not show any sign of approaching our point of view.
    Two points can be stressed legitimately. One is that it is undesirable to leave small farmers who would benefit under the Bill, but who, possibly, would like to take loans rather than grants, to the fluctuations of the money market. We have seen great fluctuations in the last

    289
    eighteen months, with the Bank Rate up to 7 per cent. Ever since 1951, there have been fluctuations of various kinds.
    There is a case for men in small business of this kind being given the opportunity by the' Government to meet their obligations under conditions of reasonable stability. That is why there is a case for giving them the opportunity to take loans on a stable basis, not subject to the fluctuations of the money market, if they so wish.
    The other reason is that many—in fact, most—farmers will feel that if they make use of the facilities provided by the Bill, they will be affecting the possibilities of support for prices of agricultural produce, because, as is clear from the terms of the Bill, the support for this assistance will come out of the general fund for keeping prices stable by subsidies of various kinds. Many farmers will feel that they would prefer not to run that risk, but there is a case for having the conditions reasonably stable and not subject to the fluctuations of the money market.
    I hope, therefore, that the Minister will reconsider the matter on the lines on which we on this side of the House have been pressing.
    8.0 p.m.
    Mr. Harold Davies: I sincerely hope that the Minister will listen to this side of the House on this point, because by means of the Amendment he can do something for those parts of Britain where there is marginal and difficult farming. In Committee I tried to make the point that encouragement outside even a scheme of grants might be given to small farmers. There are 1,710 farms of under 20 acres each in North Staffordshire, and among 1,340 of those in my area hundreds are farmed by men who by means of a small loan would be enabled to bring water supplies or electricity to their farms.
    In many cases these small farmers do not ask the Electricity Board for a supply of electricity and do not install a tapped water supply because they cannot afford to do so. A loan for this purpose would encourage initiative. If huge loans can be given to people to enable them to stuff their houses with television sets, in the name of sanity why cannot we have a much more realistic approach to the provision of certain basic requirements for the benefit of the country as a whole?
    290
    Tens of thousands of small farmers in Britain, whom we so often decry, provide mountains of fresh food for the nation, and they produce it at times of crisis. These farmers should not be forgotten in the transitional periods. The Conservative Party talks a great deal about helping the small farmer. The Amendment provides the Government with an opportunity to give the help. The Minister has the power. All he needs is the courage to accept tonight an extension of the Bill, by means of the Amendment, which would bring about a vast improvement and would enable small farmers to obtain electricity and water supplies and provide small individual drainage schemes which might increase production by 25 per cent. I beg the Minister to consider this constructive Amendment.
    Mr. John Hall: Although I would not altogether agree with the wording of the Amendment, there is something to be said for the proposal that a provision should be inserted in the Bill to enable the Minister to make loans available in certain circumstances. I understand from small farmers in my constituency that their main objection to grants is that they will come out of the global sum. I can also understand the Government's objection to having loans outside that total sum paid to farmers, because that increases total Treasury liability at any one time and there is no certainty in what year that loan element is likely to be reduced.
    It should be made possible to make loans to farmers who may be outside the terms of the Bill because, although their acreage is right, their man-day calculation is wrong, which means that they have shown that they are efficient and that if they had made available to them money at a low rate of interest, or loans free of interest, they could still further increase productivity.
    It might be asked why special facilities should be given to farmers, either interest-free or at an artificially low rate pf interest, when they are not made available to other forms of industry. The answer is quite simple. At the moment we feel it necessary, for the benefit of the nation as a whole and in order to encourage food production and ensure food supplies, to give special treatment to farmers to the tune of £350 million a year.
    Mr. T. Williams: No.
    Mr. Hall: I am subject to correction on the figure, but in any event it is a very large figure, and it is certainly a special form of assistance. If it is reasonable to pay support of that kind, we should not cavil at giving loan facilities at a special rate of interest where we think that they will increase productivity.
    I do not know what amount of the food that we require in this country is met by home producers. I think that it is 60 per cent. But it may well be that in the next ten or twenty years the total amount of food requirement met by home producers may fall in relation to an increasing population and a not sufficiently rapid rise in agricultural production. Therefore, we should help not only the small farmers who are within the purview of the Bill but the efficient small farmers who, by their very efficiency, have put themselves outside its purview. Therefore, I should like to see my right hon. Friend take powers which would enable him to give help of this kind.
    Mr. Hayman: I am glad that the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) has supported the Amendment, and particularly the principle. His suggestion that there should be a low rate of interest or even an interest-free loan was excellent. I made the point in Committee that there is already a low interest rate which the State recognises, namely, the 2½per cent. rate of interest paid on Post Office Savings Bank accounts. That is something which the Minister might consider if he is prepared to accept the Amendment but does not want to give an interest-free loan.
    Mr. Tudor Watkins: I also want to support the Amendment. No doubt the Minister has by now been advised about what was said in debate yesterday on the Electricity (Borrowing Powers) Bill, in the course of which my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) suggested that consideration should be given to the possibility of loans being made available to small farmers so that they might obtain more equipment for their farms, and particularly movable assets which would use more electricity. It was an admirable suggestion which was echoed by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
    292
    I want to support that suggestion in the hope that the Minister will deal with it favourably if not now, then in the near future. Ministers and hon. Members sometimes criticise farmers because they do not use a sufficient amount of electrical equipment and increase the consumption of electricity in rural areas. Greater facilities should be given to farmers to obtain loans for this purpose and I welcome the splendid suggestion made by the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall).
    Sir Archer Baldwin: I agree with all that has been said about the importance of electricity in agriculture, and especially on the remote farms. If we are to keep production going in these remote areas electricity must be provided. If my right hon. Friend does not think that the idea of a loan is a good one, I would suggest that the electricity authorities who now give hire-purchase terms for refrigerators should provide those terms for the installation of electricity, which would be very much more useful to smallholdings' and small farms.
    Mr. John Hare: As the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) said very frankly, a certain amount of ingenuity had to be exercised to get this subject ventilated in the House. We have had very considerable and lengthy debates on it in Committee but regretfully I have not changed my mind and I have not been convinced by the reasons put forward in favour of this proposal. I am sure that that does not come as a surprise to the hon. Member for Sunderland, North in view of our Committee debates. The hon. Member said that loans should be used to supplement grants. There is a major difference between the party opposite and the National Farmers' Union, which wanted loans and not grants.
    Mr. Willey: The N.F.U. also argued that if there were husbandry grants, they should be supplemented with farm business loans and that whereas there was an arguable case for grants in the one case, there was an argument consequential upon that, that if one was to provide sufficient assistance by way of farm business aid, it should be in the form of loans.
    Mr. Hare: The N.F.U. may have argued that, but, as the hon. Member

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    knows, its main thesis was that assistance under the scheme should take the form of loans rather than grants. There is thus a major difference between the outlook of the N.F.U. and that of the party opposite.
    The hon. Member also said that he felt that advisory officers would be capable of handling the very considerable extra administration which would be needed if they were to be responsible for assessing the credit-worthiness of farmers. The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Philips Price) was anxious that a system of loans should be introduced to avoid fluctuations in the market. The hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) asked me to take courage to do something which I think would be wrong. My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) spoke in the same vein as the hon. Member for Leek, a delightful change for the House to observe.
    I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe will excuse me if I do not repeat the very long arguments which I put forward in Committee to show why we think that we were right to stick to our approach of loans, an approach which we put forward on Second Reading and which we expounded in Paragraph 13 of the White Paper. Very briefly, the main reasons are that until a small farmer begins to get the benefit of improvements from the scheme, he will hesitate to come forward and accept the burden of loans being uncertain until he has started to make his improvements whether he will be able to keep to the terms and time of repayment.
    Nor do we think that the executive staff of our divisional offices can do what the hon. Member for Sunderland, North thinks they can do. It would be asking far too much of them in a scheme of this great size and which is very different from other services. Thousands of applications would have to be considered and far too great a burden would be placed on people who would not have the specialist knowledge needed.
    We think that what we should do is by grants and advice to small farmers to encourage them to build up the productivity of their farms. By doing that, we shall improve the credit-worthiness of the farmers so that those who need further credit will be able to obtain it through normal channels. Those are the argu-
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    ments which I made in Committee and which are still valid.
    Having been able again to air his views on the subject of loans, I think that the hon. Member for Sunderland, North will agree that he would not want me to accept the Amendment, since it would give far too much power to the Minister of Agriculture. So far as I can make out, it is left entirely to the Minister's discretion as to who will get outright grants, who will have to make repayments and over what period repayments will be required and even what, if any, rate of interest should be charged. I do not know what the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) thinks, but I should not be able to take on that invidious responsibility, nor do I believe that any Minister of Agriculture of either party would wish to do so. Having had this further airing of the subject, perhaps the hon. Member will now be kind enough to withdraw the Amendment.
    8.15 p.m.
    Mr. Willey: That is a leading invitation. We were not necessarily taking the same view as the N.F.U., but were merely calling in aid generally what the N.F.U. had said. We feel that there should be provision for loans. If the Minister had had any doubts about using advisory officers for the administration of such a scheme, he could have accepted the Amendment in principle and found other ways to implement it. However, I agree at once that if a provision of this sort were made, this would not be a very satisfactory way to do it.
    I agree that there is a difference of approach between the two sides about credit. We believe, as we said in "Prosper the Plough", that steps should be taken to provide better credit facilities for farmers. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will carefully study that document and seek some other opportunity for meeting what is a major need in farming.
    I welcome the intervention of the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall). We think that there is a need for credit facilities, as the hon. Member said. We have taken a further opportunity to air the matter, but, as the right hon. Gentleman has indicated, we do not intend to press the Amendment to a Division. Accordingly, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    Clause 4.—(SUPPLEMENTARY PROVISIONS AS TO SCHEMES.)
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. J. B. Godber): I beg to move, in page 4, line 9 to leave out from "for" to "any" and to insert "enabling".
    It may be convenient also to take the next Amendment, in line 12, at end insert:
    "to be modified from time to time on the application of the person for the time being carrying on the business to which the programme relates".
    These Amendments are designed to deal with a specific point which the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) raised in Committee, when he asked whether I would make it quite clear that a programme was to be modified only at the request of a farmer himself. That is a valid point and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising it. We have sought entirely to meet the case he put forward and I do not propose to detain the House further.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Amendment made:In page 4, line 12, at end insert:
    "to be modified from time to time on the application of the person for the time being carrying on the business to which the programme relates".

    Clause 5.—(REVOCATION OF APPROVAL OF PROGRAMME AND RECOVERY OF GRANT.)
    Mr. Godber: I beg to move, in page 4, line 48 to leave out from "on" to "a" and to insert:
    "for the time being the business to which the programme relates".
    This is purely a drafting Amendment designed to clarify the position.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Godber: I beg to move, in page 5, line 3 after "person" to insert:
    "and, if that person so requests, not more than one other person nominated by him in that behalf".
    This is another matter which we discussed in Committee. I then gave an undertaking that if an Amendment which had then been moved were withdrawn, we would seek to meet the point which hon. Members opposite had in mind. We have sought to do so in this way and we have provided for one other person, the choice of the farmer concerned, to go with
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    him to make representations against a proposed revocation. I hope that that fully meets the wishes of hon. Members opposite. I am grateful to them for drawing my attention to the matter.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Godber: I beg to move, in page 5, line 6 at the end to insert:
    "a copy of which shall be supplied by the Minister to the first-mentioned person".
    This, again, makes a point raised in Committee by hon. Members opposite. In our usual conciliatory mood, we sought to help in every way we could. This closely follows the precedents set out in the Franks Report and we are grateful to hon. Members for bringing it to our attention.
    Mr. T. Williams: I do not wish to detain the House for more than a few seconds in order to say, "Thank you" to the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary for having accepted the wise suggestions submitted by hon. Members on this side in Committee. It is not a very good Bill, but at least the Opposition have made it a little better than it was.
    Amendment agreed to.
    8.20 p.m.
    Mr. John Hare: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
    The objects of this short but very important Bill have commanded a wide measure of agreement among hon. Members on both sides of the House. We have had our disagreements but there has been a wide measure of agreement with the principles behind the Bill, and I thank the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends for their very helpful and constructive attitude towards the Bill. As the right hon. Gentleman has just said, their efforts have resulted in a number of quite useful improvements.
    Before I talk about the Bill in more detail, I hope that I shall not be out of order in saying a personal word about the tragic loss that we sustained, during our discussions, in the death of Sidney Dye. He was regarded with warm affection by hon. Members on both sides of the House and, as in so many of our agricultural debates, he made valuable contributions in our Second Reading debate as well as in our proceedings upstairs. I know that I am speaking for

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    the whole House when I say that he will be very sadly missed.
    First, I want to deal with one or two matters to which I could not give a final answer in Committee and which have not come up by way of Amendments. The first concerns the farm business grant, which is such a very important feature of the small farmer scheme. The right hon. Gentleman and some of his hon. Friends suggested that the instalments of this grant, as we proposed to pay them, after six, twelve, twenty-four and thirty-six months from the beginning of the farm business programme, were staggered too much. They wanted me to pay the whole or a large part of the farm business grant right at the start of the programme.
    I think that would be going too far. As a result of the representations put forward by them, however, I have considered the question very carefully and have come to the conclusion that there might be too much of a gap after the payment of the second instalment, as I had originally weighted the scheme. I therefore intend to bring forward both the third and fourth instalments by six months. The four instalments will now be paid after six, twelve, eighteen, and thirty months after the beginning of the programme. I am glad to make this change. I think that it will be welcomed, and it will be helpful. It goes some way to meet the case put forward by hon. Members opposite.
    Mr. A. J. Champion: Does this mean that in every case the payments will be made at those intervals? We said that we thought that it would be advisable to speed up payment in certain cases; we did not suggest that it would be necessary in all cases.
    Mr. Hare: The payments will be made at those intervals in every case. I can explain why I feel that, having gone this far, I cannot go as far as hon. Members opposite would like. I do not think that it would be right to pay a large proportion of the grant before the farmer has shown by positive action that he has got down to the job of carrying out his programme. It has been argued that many farmers would want to buy extra stock at the start of the programme, but the great majority will probably need to
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    carry out grassland improvements before they increase the numbers of stock they carry.
    There will be some cases where the farmer would be justified in buying stock at the start, but in the last analysis I think that this problem may solve itself. The very fact that a small farmer has had a programme approved under the scheme should improve his credit-worthiness. This, in turn, should enable him to borrow money, in cases where he genuinely needs it right at the beginning of his programme, to supplement the first payment of grant which he will in any case receive six months after he starts work on his programme.
    Before leaving the question of working capital I want to make one other point. The field husbandry grants for the improvement and renovation of grassland, and for ditching, are also at standard rates, and they are paid on top of other grants and subsidies. The total grant aid may well exceed the farmer's expenditure where he does the work himself, as he generally will. If he does his own ditching he will therefore have some extra cash in his pocket from that source. In a way, his position will be rather similar to that of a farmer who gets a grant on a standard costs basis for work he doss himself on improvements under the Farm Improvement Scheme. Our experience has been that this standard costs innovation has been widely welcomed and is working very well. The provisions under the small farmers scheme should, I believe, operate to the advantage of the small farmer in very much the same way.
    In our proceedings upstairs we were very largely concerned with questions of eligibility. I undertook to satisfy myself that I had correctly stated the effect of the Bill in certain respects, and I have given the matter that consideration. I have already emphasised that the small farmer scheme will be concerned with small farm businesses which are capable of providing an adequate return to a full-time occupier. Our test for this will be that the business is capable of acquiring at least 275 standard man-days after improvement, as is laid down in the White Paper. The actual occupier need not be full-time; he may be working part-time, and be helped by his wife or other workers.

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    As hon. Members will be aware, provisional applications for both the small farmer scheme and the supplementary scheme were invited last week. Leaflets and application forms have been sent out in large numbers to all those farmers who had already notified the divisional offices of my Ministry of their interest in the schemes. I think that we are off to a pretty good start. The opening day was only 15th January—just six days ago—but from all I hear there has been a very welcome response in the demands for application forms and further explanation.
    I have two more things to say. The first concerns the criticism that this scheme is simply a redistribution of income from one section of the farming community to another. That criticism is not justified. Of the £12 million which we estimate the scheme will cost in the first full year, £3 million will be extra money provided by the taxpayer to cover the greater use of the existing ploughing up and fertiliser subsidies which the scheme will encourage.
    Another £3 million will be covered by the saving resulting from the ending of the marginal production scheme, and only the rest of the cost—the other £6 million —will go towards the guarantees settled at the coming 1959 Price Review. This £6 million will in general involve, of course, some redistribution from the larger to the smaller farms, but we must keep this in perspective. The amount is very small by comparison with the total of agricultural subsidies, which, we were reminded only a minute or two ago, have been running at between £250 million and £300 million a year.
    When I first put forward our proposals, I was called a super-optimist, which phrase was actually used by the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams). He painted a gloomy picture in which the administration of the scheme was going to prove far too heavy a burden for the National Agricultural Advisory Service to bear. Yet, in all these latest stages of the Bill, we find that almost every major alteration which the Opposition have pressed for would have involved extending the scheme and increasing the burden on my Department.
    Now, I have been told to offer loans instead of grants. I will not go into
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    that, because I have already stated the reasons why I cannot accept it. I have been told to extend the scheme to cover holdings at present excluded by the 20-acre lower limit. That again could only increase the burden of administering the scheme. Again, I know that some people feel that I ought to alter the man-days limit at the upper end of the scale to a higher figure.
    In all these matters, I must stress the point which I have tried to make right from the start. We are making an honest attempt to tackle a problem which has been with the industry for many years, and to do that we are going to have to resort to methods which are new and untried. This is truly pioneer work, and it would indeed be foolish and arrogant if I were to claim for a moment that we had found the perfect answer at our first attempt. We shall be ready to learn from experience. If we find in a year or two that the limits we have set are too narrow, and that we can and ought to do more, we shall not be afraid to change our plans. Surely, this is not an unreasonable attitude for me to adopt?
    I have slightly criticised the party opposite on one or two points, and I am not going to ask forgiveness for that. But this I would say. I do realise that there are honest differences of opinion between both sides of the House about the best way to help the small farmer. We have had our discussion on loans, and we have our differences about how far co-operation should go in order to enable farmers to qualify. These are definite differences of opinion. But I think that whatever our views about the means, we are in fact all agreed about the end.
    We all want to put the small farmer in a healthy and competitive position. I am convinced that this Bill, and the schemes which we hope to make under it, offer us the best chance we have ever had so far of achieving just that. If I may sum up in three or four words the purpose of this Bill, I would say that it is to give a new deal, and a better deal than they have ever had before, to many thousands of small farmers.
    8.33 p.m.
    Mr. F. Willey: May I first be permitted to join the Minister in paying tribute to Sidney Dye? When we had the Second Reading debate on this Bill, Sidney Dye spoke for the first—and as it proved to be

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    the last—time from this Front Bench. We all recognised him as a very real champion of the small farmer whom we have been discussing in our proceedings on this Bill, and I think we would all remember Sidney Dye as one of the most well loved Members in the House. We all have very great respect for him, and it is hard to believe that we shall not hear him again.
    As the Minister has said, we have not opposed this Bill. We have not been as enthusiastic about it as the right hon. Gentleman now seems to appear. I do not know whether that is "Dutch courage," in view of what many farmers are now saying about the Bill. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to forgive me if I did not follow him in all that he said. I realise that he took the opportunity to say several things about the schemes to be introduced so that people can be better informed about them, but I think it is better to await the schemes before we discuss them in detail.
    We have not opposed the Bill because we recognise that it will bring some welcome relief to sorely pressed small farmers. It was perhaps designed to mitigate the antipathy of many small farmers towards Tory agricultural policy, although I have never regarded the Bill as a political Measure. It is probably bureaucratic in conception. It is an endeavour to mitigate the harm that is being done to the small farmer by the policy which has been followed by the present Government over the past three years. Therefore, as I say, we are as unenthusiastic about the Bill as members of the National Farmers' Union seem to be at the moment, and as, indeed, some Government back benchers may well be. I have noted that two of the Government's spokesmen on agricultural matters have been silenced; they have been promoted to become Whips.
    The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the rejection of our Amendments. By reason of that rejection we are more than ever convinced that the only purpose of the Government—the only purpose that has so far been revealed—is the scheme dealt with in the Government White Paper. We shall have an opportunity to debate that Order later. Again, like the National Farmers' Union, we regret the failure of the Government to modify their scheme in any way or to anticipate that further measures may be necessary. If
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    the right hon. Gentleman really believed that the Government intended to do more for the small farmer—if he shared the views of the hon. Member for Leominster (Sir A. Baldwin) that much more will have to be done—the Government would have been bound to accept some of our Amendments.
    We have an enabling Bill, but we have not been able, as the right hon. Gentleman confessed, to extend the powers which the Government take under the Bill. We have no evidence that the Government will take the measures which are necessary. I am not blaming the Government for creating the small farmer problem, which is an intractable problem that has been with us for a very long time but I feel, as the producers feel, that the Government have aggravated the small farmer problem during the past few years. I do not want to go into any detail but it is shown by farm accounts—in the figures which have recently been published—that the farmer with fifty acres or less has seen his income decline over the past few years and that the small farmer has become relatively worse off during that time. I do not think that is disputed. The right hon. Gentleman was good enough to concede that this was one of his anxieties and one of the purposes of the Bill.
    We have to recognise, as the farmers do, that unfortunately this trend is likely to continue. The right hon. Gentleman called in aid the Economist when he was telling us of those who sounded the praises of his proposals. If I were in his office I would not be very enthusiastic about support from the Economist.In praising the action taken by the Government the Economist expressly and specifically said that if the scheme was to benefit the national economy there would have to be further downward revisions at the next and the subsequent price reviews. This is not an encouraging prospect.
    It is in that depressing context that we are bound to regard as disappointing the present Measure and the scheme which the Government have announced in the White Paper, for many reasons. I will touch upon only one or two of them. They are disappointing because very many potentially viable small farms will be outside the scheme which the Government are introducing. My right hon. Friend gave the figures when he spoke

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    on Second Reading. The Government estimate that they will assist and aid 65,000 farmers, 25,000 of them in the first year, but that is only touching the fringe of this problem. I think everyone believes that the Government are optimistic in putting forward those estimates.
    In passing, I touch on something which I had hoped the right hon. Gentleman would mention. I again urge the Government to take all the steps they can to increase the Advisory Service. Unfortunately, this is a Cinderella service. I do not think its prospects have been helped by the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Newbury (Sir A. Hurd). I think that has caused some concern, but I hope that the Government will consider the salary and career prospects of the members of the Advisory Service and try to achieve the purpose he has of expanding this Service in view of the calls that are going to be made upon it.
    We have to recognise also—as the Government are bound to concede—that the position of many small farmers as a result of this Measure is going to be worsened. Not only will they receive no benefit whatsoever under the scheme, but they will have to contribute towards the expense of that scheme because it is a charge which will be loaded on to the Price Review. To take this action at the present moment is not only inadequate, but—I say this calculatedly—seems likely to drive many of these people to the wall. I cannot avoid a conclusion that this is one of the purposes of the present approach, that not only are those in the most unfortunate position excluded, but upon their shoulders is put the burden of contributing to the scheme itself. If the Government disagree with what I have said, they had better show some real urgency in tackling this problem.
    Whether that result obtains or not, the fact remains that the Bill is inadequate and, as I have indicated, only a very partial endeavour to tackle the problem of the small farmer. I would be fair to the Government—this has been referred to already today—they have recognised this. In the White Paper they say they will give further study to the other small farmers, who are particularly adversely affected. If the Government are genuine in this endeavour they had better produce something quickly because this is a part
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    of the farming community which is most sorely pressed today. It is not easy; it is a difficult problem—a problem which, incidentally, the Economist recognised— a problem wider than the approach made by the Government in the present Bill. It is at least partly a social problem and certainly something which should be recognised as a national responsibility.
    For the Government to take steps which aggravate this problem and at the same time afford no immediate assistance to those very sturdy, independent people working in agriculture, is certainly something which is upsetting the industry. I apologise for going outside the contents of the Bill we are discussing, but I hope the Government will not lose any time in proceeding to endeavour to tackle this further problem affecting not only the farming community but the countryside. Moreover, this is not only a question of the countryside; this is adjusting something which at present is unfair.
    The right hon. Gentleman talked about redistribution of income. In fact, surprisingly enough, there is a case to be made out now that there should be a readjustment of income, that if we examine price support the small farmer and the farmer on marginal land gets less than his due from the present arrangements. I would say from the point of view of the countryside and recognising that this is an acute social problem, and from the point of view of adjusting the unfairness of the present arrangements, that the Government ought to tackle the wider problem of the small farmer and the marginal producer.
    To return strictly to the Bill and the scheme that we can anticipate from it, I ask the right hon. Gentleman not only to continue his study of the wider problem but to see whether between now and the introduction of the scheme he can make allowance for the criticisms—I believe constructive criticisms—that have been made not only from this side of the House but from outside the House, and get a sounder scheme than the one at present proposed by the Government. If we do not get a sounder scheme we shall get something which will bring some comfort to some small farmers, but I am afraid it will be no more than cold comfort.
    8.47 p.m.
    Mr. Corfield: I welcome this Bill. I think we all agree that there is a case for weighting agricultural support in favour of those farmers who cannot, owing to the size of their farms, get the same advantages of large-scale production which are available to larger farmers.
    However, once we go beyond that, the task of defining what farmers should come into this scheme is almost impossible, and I think that any definition is bound to be arbitrary to some extent and is bound to give rise to a great deal of criticism. I hope that my right hon. Friend will not be unduly deterred by that criticism. The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) was very full of it. He talked a lot about unfairness and so on, but he was careful to skate clear of the problem of definition. I believe that that is the crux. It is impossible to define the actual group of farmers whom one should help in a way which avoids drawing entirely arbitrary lines somewhere or other.
    The real point to which I wish to draw attention goes to the root of the qualification for assistance under the Bill as it is now drafted. According to the White Paper, the basic qualification is that the farm business should be
    "capable, with reasonable management, of giving remunerative full-time employment to the average occupier."
    Later on in paragraph 7 of the White Paper that is amplified in the following words:
    "…capable of yielding a net income broadly equivalent to the average earnings of a skilled agricultural worker."
    That is basically the same qualification as under the farm improvement scheme of the 1957 Act. They are not the words which are used in the Act, but they are virtually the same words as were used in the White Paper which preceded that Act and to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred in Committee when discussing an Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Champion). He said:
    "We intend to be governed very largely by that definition,"—
    that is the definition in the White Paper—
    "but when it comes to writing it into the Bill, there are certain reasons for which we have felt it right not to confine it absolutely
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    to these words…We felt it right to give ourselves a little latitude in this, while saying that we stand by that definition as an approximation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT,Standing Committee A,2nd May, 1957; c. 226]
    I have come across cases in which farmers who have applied for improvement grants under the 1957 Act have been turned down on the very ground that their holdings are not capable of providing this reasonable income for their occupiers. They then find when the White Paper is published, which gives an idea of the scheme that we are going to have under this Bill, that their standard labour requirement is too high for them to qualify, that they have more than 450 man-days. I suggest it is ridiculous to pretend that they are uneconomic. If they are too economic for the purposes of the small farmers scheme, and the basic consideration of qualification is the same in each case, it is quite absurd to say that they are too uneconomic to qualify for an improvement grant.
    Of course, it is argued that under the improvement grant scheme of the 1957 Act the definition applies to the land and buildings and that this scheme applies to the business and the men, but I suggest that that is a distinction without a difference. Under the farm improvements scheme we have to look at the land in conjunction with the occupier. The land for the benefit of which the improvement is proposed is to be agricultural land occupied together with buildings, etc., and must be capable of yielding a sufficient livelihood to an occupier reasonably skilled in husbandry. I suggest that once we consider land and buildings of a farming nature in conjunction with the occupier we are considering the farm business in the same way as we are doing under this scheme.
    I should have thought that if the standard labour requirement under this scheme of 450 days is a reasonable measure of income corresponding to a good agricultural worker, and if the farmer has shown that his land is capable of carrying that additional labour, he has quite clearly shown that that farm is capable of being economic. It is absurd to draw a fine distinction and say that he is not economic, although he is too economic for the other scheme.
    I was rather disturbed earlier on, when dealing with the Amendment relating to small farmers who do not qualify but

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    wish to co-operate, to hear my right hon. Friend say that he would accept a very loose form of agreement and would not insist on a legal partnership. It seems to me that in any form of joint undertaking in agriculture perhaps more than any other it is essential for the welfare of the people concerned that their rights and obligations should be clearly defined. To encourage small farmers to go into these undertakings without doing so is absolute folly. It is not the two or three guineas which one pays for one's partnership agreement which puts all the money into the lawyers' pockets. It is the hundreds of pounds which accrue when a dispute arises because one has not done that very thing. I beg my right hon. Friend to insist upon a properly drawn agreement.
    8.55 p.m.
    Mr. Watkins: I agree with the point that the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Corfield) raised about economic holdings. I hope that he will be able in future to say something about the position in mid-Wales. The hon. Member also suggested that proper agreements should be drawn up. I would not go so far as that because I find that if the farmers whom I represent come to an understanding with one another and shake hands on it they will stand by it.
    I was glad that the Minister, in moving the Third Reading, made reference to what I think is an important aspect, namely, the eligibility of part-time farmers for grants under the scheme. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will make the point clear again, although it may only be restating what the Minister has said, namely, that the scheme does not apply only to whole-time farmers.
    The Mid-Wales Investigation Report made a tentative suggestion about the compulsory amalgamation of small farms, although it was not accepted by the Government, and expressed favour for voluntary associations of farms. Because of that report the South Wales Electricity Board seems to think that that is the policy of the Government, but I am glad to say that it is not. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will reiterate what has been said. If there is the possibility of the amalgamation of viable holdings, either full-time or part-time, I hope that grants will be given towards them.
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    On 30th July last year the South Wales Electricity Consultative Council felt that
    "it would be wrong for the Board to use some of the limited amount of capital available for rural electrification in providing supplies to rural premises which might well be vacated when amalgamations envisaged by the Sub-Commission come about."
    The South Wales Electricity Board expressed itself in the same vein. It said, on 12th September, 1958:
    "…If the amalgamation of farms mentioned in the Report should take place, the number of premises to be connected will presumably be less than at present, and we sincerely hope some clarification will have taken place by the time we come to deal with the Area."
    Surely clarification is now required to ascertain whether certain holdings will provide good prospects of agricultural production.
    The Board continues:
    "Otherwise there appears to be a grave danger of effort and capital being applied wastefully to supply premises which will, in due course, be vacated."
    I am glad that the Minister does not accept that point of view.
    On 22nd December, 1958, the Consultative Council stated that it would not be justified
    "in recommending that additional capital should be devoted to rural works or that any area such as the Mid-Wales Area should be given special treatment."
    The area is composed entirely of farms. I am glad that I have been able to bring that point into the Third Reading of this important Bill. Mid-Wales is not a desolate area, but has in it economic holdings which should be supplied with electricity. The fact is that they do not get electricity and that is why the South Wales Area Board is the worst area board in Britain.
    I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will also consider sympathetically any borderline cases. I would ask him to consider mid-Wales more than any other area, but I ask him to give consideration to the borderline cases if he thinks that there is a prospect of the holdings becoming economic. For instance, money can be saved by grants from the Minister of Agriculture, and I suggest that the electricity boards should not be allowed to charge large amounts for bringing electricity to the farms. The electricity boards, in turn, take advantage of the small farmers' scheme or the farm improvements scheme for buildings which pay

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    33⅓ per cent. or 50 per cent. towards other schemes. There is thus an indirect subsidy from the Ministry of Agriculture to the electricity board, and the board is taking advantage of this. I hope that something will be done about that. I suggest that the Minister should ask his officers, who are in liaison with the electricity board, to watch this.
    I hope that the Minister will put into operation what he said when he spoke in Committee about the under-20-acres man and the excess man-days. He said that the Government would consider an alteration of the scheme after some experience, and he said that he was by no means inflexible in his ideas. I wonder how many ideas he has already had. How many ideas has he had from the farmers' organisations about alterations in the requirements for crops and livestock production? How many ideas has he had, and to what extent have his ideas become more flexible than they were during the Committee stage? Will he try the scheme for just one year or two years, and so on?
    I was very disappointed to hear what the Minister said this evening about the new schemes not being available for farmers working under 20 acres because of the burden upon the administration. I do not want this to be merely an intention in the future. If people have looked at this aspect of the matter now and reported that the farms under 20 acres should be brought in, I hope that the Minister will not turn that down flatly with the excuse about the burden on administration in future.
    How many applications are likely to be received from Wales? The Minister, I think, said that, in the first twelve months, 25,000 schemes are expected under the Bill. In reply to one of my hon. Friends, the Parliamentary Secretary said that there are 28,000 full-time farm businesses in Wales, and one-third of them would qualify. How many of the one-third will qualify for schemes in the first year within the 25,000 for England and Wales? These things are important, because they show whether the Ministry's first impressions are as good as the hon. Gentleman led us to believe that they were. The people with 100 or 150 acres who may come into the scheme are very efficient farmers. The point has been put by hon. Gentlemen opposite as well as by my hon. Friends.
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    The number actually coming under the scheme may be less than that first indicated by the Parliamentary Secretary.
    Finally, I reiterate what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey). I cannot expect any statement from the Parliamentary Secretary now on this, but I hope that there will be no reduction in the guaranteed prices, particularly to those having less than 20 acres or those above the standard man-days in order to provide for the £9 million contribution. I make the plea that they should not have another penalty put upon them, and I hope that their guaranteed prices will not be detrimentally affected.
    I respect all that has been said about the Bill, and I hope that it will have a Third Reading.
    9.5 p.m.
    Sir A. Baldwin: First, I congratulate my right hon. Friend on having introduced the Bill, and I congratulate him also for the way he has stood up to criticism from both sides of the House. No matter how one may criticise, one must recognise that he is the first Minister of Agriculture to tackle this problem. The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) said that we had aggravated the position of the small farmer during the last three years, but I cannot for a moment accept that. The problem of the small farmer has been with us for many years, and this is the first attempt made to try to remedy the troubles which exist.
    I want my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to pass a plea on to my right hon. Friend. Upstairs, the Minister said that he would review the position in two or three years. I suggest that that is much too long a time. As soon as it is ascertained what the response is and what the applications are under the Bill, steps should be taken to see whether another scheme can soon be formulated to meet the needs of those farmers who do not come under the scheme because their farms are either too large or too small.
    There is no doubt that a great deal of dissatisfaction exists in rural constituencies because so many small farmers having under 20 acres or other farmers having over 150 acres will suffer as a

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    result of the marginal production grants being done away with, and they will not come into the small farmers' scheme.
    One bright spot I noted this afternoon was the statement that the marginal agricultural production scheme is to be kept on for another twelve months. During that time, the Ministry ought to be able to form some idea about whether the response will be as overwhelming as the Department apparently thought it would be. If the Ministry finds that it will not be overwhelmed with applications under this scheme, it should at once take steps to formulate another one.
    I regard it as a great mistake to cut out the small farmers having under 20 acres. For many years, county councils have been creating smallholdings; they have been buying big farms and cutting them up. In my own constituency, there are about 15 county council smallholdings under 20 acres which will not qualify under the Bill. That is something that should be recognised.
    I do not agree with the argument that is always put forward that we must not assist a small man either with a farm improvement grant or under the small farmer scheme because he is not a viable unit. I get extremely tired of hearing that. It is time we thought along an altogether different line.
    Many of these small men with less than 20 acres are farmworkers who have a bit of ambition and want to become small farmers. They take their 10 or 15 acres of land, continue their work on the farm, get up a bit earlier in the morning to do the work on their smallholding and continue when they get back at night, their wives carrying on during the day. That kind of unit might not be viable, but these are the people whom I would like to see encouraged. Many of today's bigger farmers started as farmworkers. By the steps we take in the Bill, we are removing one or two rungs from the ladder of advance for these people. I am all in favour of the part-time worker being encouraged.
    We have had discussion today of the amalgamation of two smallholdings of less than 20 acres to qualify for grant. Knowing as I do the mentality of most small farmers and smallholders, who are extremely independent people, I consider
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    the prospect of two of them uniting to come in under this scheme to be extremely small. I would sooner see those two small farmers helped independently rather than be expected to amalgamate to come in under the scheme.
    This afternoon we heard a great deal from our Scottish friends on both sides of the House about the marginal production scheme. No one from either side of the House pleaded for either England or Wales. England and Wales, particularly the Border counties, are hit just as badly as the Scottish farmers by losing the marginal production scheme. I hope that in the fresh scheme which my right hon. Friend will introduce he will bring forward a scheme to help not only the men with less than 20 acres but also the farmers on marginal land who, possibly, may not be qualified because of the standard man days test but who are having a difficult job to get a living on marginal land. We want to encourage these farmers.
    We must go on encouraging full production in agriculture. If there is a reduction in values at the Price Review, and if we do not help those marginal farmers under this scheme, they will drop their production. The country cannot afford to reduce production. Our population is increasing rapidly. Every year we lose something like 35,000 acres of agricultural land, generally the best land. If we do not keep agriculture fully productive, we will find that we are up against a problem of balance of payments much more serious than in the past. I therefore implore my right hon. Friend and the Ministry to ensure that they keep the marginal and small farmers in full production. The need was never more urgent than at present.
    9.11 p.m.
    Mr. Gooch: I can endorse one of the remarks made by the hon. Member for Leominster (Sir A. Baldwin), when he said that the real objective of a Bill of this nature will not be reached because the people mostly in need are left outside. That is true and is a point of view which has been stressed during our debates on the Bill.
    The Minister said that he was pleased with the wide measure of agreement with the Bill. Whilst there may be an agreement upon fundamentals, the debates both in Committee and on the

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    Floor of the House have clearly indicated that there are two divergent views upon the main principles of the Bill. What is more, I should not like the debate tonight to end without calling the attention of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the fact that there was strong, and certainly influential, criticism of the Bill right up to yesterday.
    When a prominent member of the National Farmers' Union says that the Bill stinks, I should have thought that it was the obvious duty of the Minister to reflect and see what was meant. The same speaker at yesterday's annual meeting of the National Farmers' Union said he was surprised that the N.F.U. should have had anything to do with it. That does not speak hopefully of securing the support of the farming community on the Bill. I hoped throughout, especially during the progress of the Bill in Committee, that it would have been withdrawn and something more useful, which would be of tremendous assistance to the small and deserving farmer, would be put in its place.
    I am certainly not opposed to putting small farmers in a position to take their place with the larger ones. I am concerned with the wages and working conditions of farmworkers. The object of the Bill, if achieved, would have helped us enormously in securing better wages and working conditions for those who work on the land. That is what I hoped the Bill would do. I want the small as well as the large farmer to be in a position to pay good wages, and to that end I certainly supported the Bill.
    I want, however, to make a few general remarks. Certainly, the small farmer scheme will be limited in operation and will, I suggest, cause tremendous dissatisfaction in its working. The basis of such a scheme should be low-interest loans made available to a wider range of applicants. The most objectionable feature of the Bill is that it does not bring new money into the industry but aims at spreading a little bit further the money that is already there.
    I was not surprised to learn that the Norfolk branch of the National Farmers' Union passed a resolution only a few days ago placing on record that a large proportion of the small farmers of Norfolk—the county in which I live—will gain no benefit from the schemes but will contribute substantially to their costs. This
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    is not a case of large farmers actuated by good will contributing finance to help small farmers. Many farmers are prepared at all times to help small farmers in cultivation, and their help is of great value, but when it is a question of handing out money it is another matter.
    The Bill really conveys a wrong impression, and I hope that that impression will be removed. It is an impression to the public of Government assistance being given to small farmers, whereas it is not Government assistance, certainly not to the extent of £6 million, to small farmers but a case of the farmers themselves contributing to a general fund out of which some of them hope to get something. There is general alarm and resentment that these schemes should be financed out of the total Price Review award. The question which I have heard asked seriously lately, and to which the Minister and the Joint Parliamentary Secretary should address themselves, is whether this is the thin end of the wedge and whether price support is really in danger. I ask the Minister and the Government to think seriously about this. These two points are certainly being advanced and they call for an answer.
    It is too late, of course, now to ask the Minister to withdraw the Bill. It will go forward. I can only hope that some of its objectives will be reached, but I hope also that when a Government of a different colour come into office they will produce something of real and lasting benefit to the small working farmers of the country.
    9.18 p.m.
    Mr. John Hall: The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), at the opening of the Third Reading debate, described the problem of the small farmer as intractable, as indeed it is. I doubt whether any Minister of Agriculture, of whatever side, would be able to produce a scheme which would meet the unqualified approval of the farming community, but I think that it is true to say, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Sir A. Baldwin) pointed out, that this is the first time that a really determined effort has been made to tackle this problem. I doubt whether the National Farmers' Union, if asked to do so, unless it were allowed some limited access to Treasury funds, would itself be able to produce a scheme which would be acceptable to the farming community as a whole.

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    Like many hon. Members on both sides of the House who have talked to farmers in their constituencies, I have heard some praise and, of course, a good deal of criticism. Some of the criticism has not been altogether on the lines that have been mentioned in the debate. I have heard one or two of my more successful small farmers complain to me privately that they could not really see why grants should be given to other small farmers because they were inefficient. They asked why a premium should not be given to them for being efficient and making their farms pay. They did not like the idea of money going to people whom they regarded as somewhat idle and not very capable. But, taking all that into account, one must welcome the Bill as a courageous and even ingenious attempt to solve this difficult problem which has exercised our minds for many years.
    All I would do in this short contribution to the debate is to ask the Minister to look at two matters when the time comes to review the scheme for which the Bill provides. I am not at all satisfied that the man-day formula is not being too restrictively calculated. In studying the situation in my own constituency and Buckinghamshire generally, I find that the Ministry calculates that some 40 to 45 per cent. of farms between 20 and 100 acres are likely to qualify. The estimates my farmers make are that the number will be less than that, and my own estimate, having gone round a number of small farms, is that the total number which will qualify will probably not exceed 30 per cent. I should like the Minister to consider the formula and calculation to see whether they should not be adjusted a little when the matter is reconsidered.
    There is another problem which is very difficult and to which I see no immediate solution. It is the problem of the farmer who is efficient and who by reason of his efficiency puts himself outside the scheme on the man-day formula. I have a case in my own constituency. A young man who started farming in Buckinghamshire last year on a 50-acre farm, by dint of a considerable period of very hard work and a readiness to accept a very low standard of life and by mortgaging himself up to the hilt and by raising loans wherever he could and by putting every-
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    thing back into his farm in that year and increasing his stock, in a comparatively short time increased the efficiency of the farm a great deal. Last year, he would have qualified. This year he does not do so. He does not do so because he has been prepared to work much harder and because he has been much more able than others.
    It was for that reason that, in Committee, I suggested that the Minister should give himself power to make loans available to meet cases of that kind. If capital could be made available to such a man, who has shown that he is able to increase the productivity of his farm, and if the rates of interest were low, that would be a great boon to him and would help him over the difficult first few years of the development and formation of his farm.
    Those are the only two points I wanted to make and I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider them when he reviews the Bill, as he has promised to do, at a later stage. Nevertheless, I welcome the Bill as a determined and useful contribution to the solution of the very difficult problem of the small farm.
    9.22 p.m.
    Mr. Hayman: The Preamble to the Bill says that it is to
    "Provide for the making of grants for the purpose of increasing the efficiency of small farm businesses; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid."
    However, it is not all small farm businesses, but only some of them, and it is because the number is so restricted that we have felt that the Bill is inadequate. It covers farms of between 20 and 100 acres, but of those only 75,000 to 80,000 are likely to benefit, although the Minister put the maximum number at 90,000. There are 136,000 separate holdings of under 20 acres in this country and they represent about 25 per cent. of all our farms.
    Few of those can benefit. As the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) pointed out, the efficient small farmer is excluded from the benefit of the scheme because of the rule about 450 man-days maximum. Many of the intensively run small-holdings under 20 acres—of which there are many in Cornwall—are cut out of the benefits of the Bill because of this maximum. I agree with the hon. Member

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    for Leominster (Sir A. Baldwin) that the part-time smallholder is often on the first or second rung of the ladder to becoming an efficient farmer on a much bigger farm. Many of the leaders of the Cornwall branch of the N.F.U. have risen from the lower rungs of that ladder in that way.
    Under the Bill it would seem that the efficiently run holdings of 20 acres or less, and a great number of part-time holdings, will be excluded from benefit. In spite of what the Minister said, these men will be paying the bulk of the cost of financing the scheme, because about £6 million out of the £9 million is to be taken out of the Price Review.
    I would point out to the Parliamentary Secretary that from the figures he kindly gave me recently it is clear that in Cornwall there have been an average of 820 approvals for aid under the marginal production scheme in each of the last five full financial years. There, the scheme is also to be sacrificed, as has been pointed out many times this afternoon, to provide the finance for the carrying out of the Bill.
    The Minister made play with the Opposition because they had suggested improvements which would have put more work upon the National Agricultural Advisory Service, but the Parliamentary Secretary gave me an assurance in Committee that, if necessary, that service would be expanded. I hope that there will be no hesitation on the part of the Minister to expand it to meet the needs of the schemes put forward under the Bill and to carry on the normal work of the service. This normal work is too good to be sacrificed even for the benefits of the Bill.
    Yesterday, at the Annual Conference of the National Farmers' Union, a resolution proposed by the Cornwall branch was carried unanimously. That resolution deplored the refusal of the Minister of Agriculture to remove the lower acreage limit which excluded many viable farms of under 20 acres. The chairman, Mr. Mutton, said:
    "The position of the small farmer under 20 acres is almost a tragedy."
    That is the verdict of the farmers of Cornwall, and I can say no more than that.
    9.27 p.m.
    Mr. Harold Davies: We should probably all agree that the House has had some excellent debates during the various stages of the Bill. It is obvious that since the end of the Second World War both parties have had a greater appreciation of the vital importance of agriculture to our economy. I should say that it is probable that more attention has been paid to British agriculture in this Parliament in the last fifteen years than was paid to it in the previous thirty years. That is only a generalisation, which I cannot definitely prove but which I feel.
    Without wishing to be too political, I would say that it is no good hon. Members saying that this is the first time that small farmers have been considered. If the part is contained in the whole it can be said that the 1947 Agriculture Act which was brought in by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), was a prop for British agriculture the like of which it had not had before. In that Act the small farmer was given a prosperity and a consideration that he had never had previously. In this Act, however, the man with under 20 acres has been left out.
    Why was this Bill produced? We all know, in the House and in the country, that never before has the Conservative Party been criticised, as it has been in the last few years, at National Farmers' Union annual meetings. We are not children. The Bill was produced in a rush, but it is ingenious, although the mathematics of the man-days may yet prove its downfall, because, as has been said, it is possible, under the formula of man-days and the production of grass, for a man to work himself completely out of the scheme. What an absurdity in British agriculture that he can work himself out.
    When I begged for loans for the small farmer, both in this House today and during the Committee stage, I was told by the Minister, who was very courteous, smiling and kindly, that it would be putting too much of a burden on the N.A.A.S. But Clause 2 (3) throws an overwhelming burden on the N.A.A.S., because when the farmer receives a grant and wants that grant to be continued, he has to prove that he is doing good farming. It is there in the Clause, and it means that the N.A.A.S., while doing the

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    book-keeping part of it, must go hopping around the country watching these farms.
    I can remember the use of the word "snooping" when the Labour Government were in power. It was called an ugly word when the country was tough and we had just come out of the bitterest war in the history of mankind. It was called "snooping", but this ugly word is forgotten now; the same thing is called intelligent overseeing or justifiable watching over the taxpayers' money. Maybe there is a psychological difference between those high falutin' phrases and "snooping", but there is snooping in this Bill. Not only that, but in this rushed but ingenious Bill there is reference to the Price Review and its position in regard to the general income of the farmers.
    I mentioned in this House today and earlier in Committee the fact that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen can speak from now till doomsday, but the fact is that this is in the main a self-financing scheme, and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley has said, £6 million of it is to be found out of the National Price Review. Well might people say "Is this going to take away the Price Review ultimately?"
    We were accused by the Housewives' League and other organisations which went from one end of Britain to the other saying that the British Labour Party wants to nationalise the land. Where is this amalgamation taking us? Now, irrespective of the humanities, the cry is for viability. Viability at a price—never mind the human soul, and never mind Britain's countryside. This is a new cry from the Tories.
    I know that it would be completely out of order for me to make a wager with you, Mr. Speaker—but I would bet you a beetroot to a pig's trotter that the party opposite will produce a small farmers' scheme in its manifesto for the next General Election; and I mean for the farmers with under 20 acres.
    There are two other points I want to make. The party opposite has divided farmers against themselves. They have got the biggest farmers well away up in the blue skies of prosperity, but the little men, still struggling on the marginal land in my own constituency of Leek, or that of my hon. Friend in Cornwall, or in
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    Merioneth, or Radnor and counties like that, or in Scotland, are divided against themselves and also against the bigger farmers. They are asking why could not something have been done for themselves and their wives, and we very often forget that it is the wife of the small farmer who gets much of England's fresh food on to the breakfast table.
    These small men are now divided. There are 1,710 farms of under 20 acres in North Staffordshire, with 1,340 of them in my constituency, and the men who farm them are not going to get anything out of this. Why could we not have given a little more thought to them? Why could not there be introduced into this Bill, when we were debating an Amendment to Clause 1 this afternoon, provision for them? Why could not the Minister say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley and my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) that he would help them by granting loans for the purpose of taking water and electricity to farms? This would have been a means of real help for the farmer with under 20 acres.
    It would be worth while some of the farmers in the House having the courage to attack vigorously the monopolies that are digging themselves into the farming fraternity. I still want to know the facts about fertilisers, about the rubber industry and about the oil industry, which is making huge profits. It is the duty of some party in this country to see that British agriculture is not sacrified to monopolies in that way.
    Nevertheless, despite that denunciation, I know that half a loaf is better than no bread. After all, the workers of Britain have never had more than half a loaf from the Tory Party. Therefore, I accept this moderate aid that is to be given to some of the small farmers. The Bill is much better for the constructive criticism of my right hon. and hon. Friends than it would have been had we not discussed it so thoroughly as we have.
    9.37 p.m.
    Sir Harold Roper: I would make one point very briefly. I fully share the views expressed by many of my hon. Friends on this side of the House, including my hon. Friends the Members for Leominster (Sir A. Baldwin) and Wycombe (Mr. John Hall), in giving great

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    credit to the Government for tackling this very difficult problem.
    Disappointment has been expressed on both sides of the House that the benefits of the Bill cannot be extended to all small farmers who, we feel, are deserving of them, particularly those with less than 20 acres and some of those in the hill tracts that are more than 150 acres. I am concerned about the working of the Bill and with the Minister's statement that the cost will be covered in the Price Review and will come out of the global figure.
    On the face of it it seems that these farmers, particularly those with under 20 acres, will lose twice over. They will not merely fail to receive the benefits of the scheme, being excluded from it, but they will share in the cost of the benefits given to the other small farmers. We are told that it will involve a very small amount, but a small amount can mean a great deal to a small farmer who is in great need of cash. I hope that in considering the Price Review, in February, the Minister will do his best to see that no injustice is done to those small, deserving farmers who are outside the scope of the Bill, and moreover, that justice will be seen to be done.
    9.40 p.m.
    Mr. Champion: I do not propose to make a Third Reading speech, but I want to raise one point on this Bill. There seems to be some misunderstanding about the position in England and Wales in relation to what appeared to be a concession announced by the Secretary of State for Scotland this afternoon. That was referred to by the hon. Member for Leominster (Sir A. Baldwin), who appeared to be labouring under a misapprehension about the position as it relates to England and Wales.
    During the course of that debate, I mentioned to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary that I was hoping for an opportunity to ask this question and to have the answer to it because, having heard what appeared to be a concession to Scotland, it seemed that there was in this Bill another injustice to England and Wales. We must stand up for England and Wales against this Celtic difficult fringe. I am anxious to ensure that if concessions are to be made we in England and Wales are to get our share, or, if not, that there is a reasonable explanation.
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    Apart from that, the only thing I wish to do is to wish the Minister and the Joint Parliamentary Secretary success in the difficult task which lies ahead of them.
    9.41 p.m.
    Mr. Godber: May I start by thanking the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Champion) for the brevity of his winding-up speech and for the very kind words at its close. We certainly appreciate those good wishes; indeed, I think we shall need them because we have frankly admitted that this is a difficult scheme to administer, as I think is recognised by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
    It is perfectly true that this afternoon my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland did make some concession in regard to the marginal agricultural production scheme in relation to Scotland. That does not apply in relation to England and Wales. They are entirely separate schemes and have never been comparable. The provisions on both sides of the Border are wholly different in this sphere.
    I can put it most clearly to the House if I explain that, generally speaking, marginal production schemes in England are of an ad hoc nature designed to suit particular problems of particular farmers at particular times, but in Scotland over a period of years there has been a system of annual cropping grants which farmers have come to rely on to a considerable extent. That is an entirely different scheme. There never has been a direct comparison. While I sympathise with the hon. Member in his desire to see that the Scots do not get away with too much in this place, I am afraid that for a long time they have succeeded in doing that, and it is inevitable with their persuasive nature.
    I now come to some of the other points which have been raised. A number of hon. Members have sought to make the point that because there are only a limited number of small farmers who will benefit under the scheme, we are being unjust to other small farmers who are outside. I say quite frankly to the House that had we sought to do anything on a larger scale I do not think we could have envisaged bringing in a scheme at all. Successive people at successive stages have looked at the small

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    farmers' problem, but until now no one has been able to bring forward a scheme.
    My right hon. Friend rightly recognised that in bringing forward this scheme he could not go so far as everyone would wish. Nevertheless he thought it right to take a step which would be, of material advantage to many small farmers in helping them to help themselves. This is not a dole but direct help to farmers to help themselves; and it is important to stress that.
    My right hon. Friend has also made it quite clear that he has not closed his mind to the possibility of extensions at some later date. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins), who rightly reminded us of what was said in Committee, but I can add nothing further to that at this stage. We must see how it works out. We must take time. My hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Sir A. Baldwin) pleaded that we should not wait the length of time my right hon. Friend has anticipated. I think we must wait and see how it works out, and certainly we must have at least twelve months' actual working of the scheme before we can possibly consider whether we should be justified in making any alterations.
    There are those who have said that the means of financing the scheme are such that those who do not qualify— the under 20 acres men, the non-viables —will be unfairly treated as they will be helping to contribute but getting no advantage. We must get this absolutely clear and see the way in which this is being financed. The amount in dispute is £6 million. I will not go over the question of how that is arrived at; we have talked about it many times. That £6 million will rank for consideration at the Price Review. It is nothing more nor less than that. That £6 million can only be said to be found from the pockets of other farmers if the Government of the day decide to make the maximum cut that is possible. Only in those circumstances can it be said that they are in fact contributing directly.
    No one can say what the outcome of the Price Review will be. I am certainly not going to announce it at this Box tonight. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am sorry to disappoint hon. Members. I
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    realise how disappointed they may be, but until one can see the outcome one cannot say whether other farmers are financing the scheme or not. Even if they are, we must get the matter in perspective. This £6 million is out of a total of £250 million to £300 million in actual grant. To put it another way, it is out of the total value of the guarantees, which was £1,278 million last year, and so the percentage is far less.
    As I said on Second Reading, there are those who said that over recent years we have not provided for small farmers. We are seeking to start to provide for them and it is generally accepted that what we are doing is fair and right. I am sorry the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch) is not now present, but I must mention him now because he chided me in Committee for not having referred to his Second Reading speech. So, on Third Reading, I must do him justice. He quoted various things which members had said at the annual meeting of the N.F.U. only yesterday. I would remind him that, whatever individual members have said, the N.F.U. set out officially its viewpoint when it made a statement after the announcement of the scheme. It used these words:
    "Although the Union's representatives have pressed unsuccessfully for substantial changes in the Schemes, they do recognise that they represent a serious attempt to raise the economic and technical standards of a part of the industry experiencing considerable difficulty at the present time".
    I think that is an indication of sound statesmanship on the part of the N.F.U. It is willing to work with us in trying to get the best possible out of these schemes. It is important to remember that.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Corfield) asked me specifically about the comparison with the farm improvement scheme. He felt that there should be unanimity of approach between the small farmer scheme and the farm improvement scheme. I sympathise with his view but I cannot agree with his argument. One must consider these matters separately, because in the farm improvement scheme cases we are considering long-term measures related to the holding and to the land. In the small farmer scheme we are considering purely the farm business as it is managed by the person at present occupying it.

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    My hon. Friend read from Section 12 of the 1957 Act, but he did not read far enough. He referred to
    "the land for the benefit of which the improvement is proposed is agricultural land occupied together with buildings and is capable of yielding a sufficient livelihood to an occupier…"
    He stopped there. It goes on to say:
    "… reasonably skilled in husbandry…"—
    in fact, not to the actual occupier at the time but to a hypothetical occupier. That is written into that Act. But in this small farmer scheme we are considering the actual man and his own productivity. They are two separate things.
    Mr. Corfield: Would my hon. Friend not agree that, having achieved more than 450 man-days, a farmer has proved himself reasonably skilled in husbandry? Has he not, therefore, satisfied the test of the 1957 Act?
    Mr. Godber: My hon. Friend has not taken my point. The man has proved himself to be reasonably skilled in husbandry but it is not the man himself whom we have to consider in relation to the farm improvement scheme. It is the hypothetical occupier of that farm and not the actual occupier whom we have to consider. There is a distinct difference, and that is the reason why we cannot marry the two absolutely. I can sympathise with my hon. Friend's point of view. It would be so much easier if we could follow that line, but for the reasons given we cannot do so.
    The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor asked me certain questions about numbers of cases involved. The estimated number eligible for the small farmer scheme in relation to Wales as a whole is 9,000. We anticipate that we may get applications in the first twelve months certainly in excess of 3,000. In fact, the hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that already 1,300 or more farmers have asked for application forms. It looks as though the applications are coming in fairly rapidly in Wales—in fact, more quickly than in some other parts of the country.
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    The hon. Gentleman referred also to borderline cases. It has already been made clear that we will do what we can in borderline cases. We must have some definite limits, but there is flexibility to the extent that a man with under 250 man-days can put forward a scheme, provided he can convince our officials that at the end of the time he will be over 275 man-days. Then he will be able to come into the scheme. That is a substantial concession which should be useful to the smaller people whom he has in mind.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Leominster raised the same point which the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East raised, and I have tried to deal with it and clarify the position. Various other questions have been asked but I think that we have had a fairly adequate debate and that what I have said should be sufficient to convince hon. Members that we are trying to provide a workmanlike scheme which can be improved as it goes along. We have made clear our willingness to bring forward new schemes if they are necessary. The legislation as at present framed will enable us to do that.
    We are feeling our way in a new field. We are doing something which we believe will be really valuable and practical for the small farmers. This is the third of a series of Measures designed to ensure the continued long-term health of British agriculture and I believe it is so accepted in general by the farming community. We have had criticisms. No doubt, we shall continue to have them in a Measure of this sort, but there is a general measure of good will towards what we are trying to do, and, in spite of the criticisms from hon. Members opposite, I believe there is an element of good will and a desire that this scheme shall prosper. I welcome that, and I welcome the response generally that this Bill has had from the House.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

TRANSPORT (BORROWING POWERS) [MONEY]
Resolution reported,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to increase the limits imposed by paragraph (b)of subsection (1) of section twenty-six of the Transport Act, 1953, and by subsection (4) of section one of the Transport (Railway Finances) Act, 1957, on the borrowing powers of the British Transport Commission, it is expedient to authorise—

(1) any increase in the sums which may be or are to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund, raised by borrowing or paid into the Exchequer under the Transport Act, 1947 (as amended by the Transport Act, 1953), in respect of guarantees by the Treasury of borrowings by the Commission, or under section forty-two of the Finance Act, 1956 (as amended by section thirty-six of the Finance Act, 1958), being an increase attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session raising to not more than twelve hundred million pounds the limit imposed by the said paragraph (b);

(2) any increase in the sums which may be or are to be issued, raised or paid as aforesaid under section two of the Transport (Railway Finances) Act, 1957, being an increase attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session raising to not more than four hundred million pounds the limit imposed by the said subsection (4).

Resolution agreed to.

TRANSPORT (BORROWING POWERS) BILL
Considered in Committee.
[Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

Clause 1.—(EXTENSION OF ORDINARY BORROWING POWERS OF BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
9.54 p.m.
The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I propose that we deal with this Clause formally, because I believe the Opposition wish to debate Clause 2.
Mr. Ernest Davies: That is so. I agree to that course.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2.—(EXTENSION OF POWERS TO COMMISSION TO BORROW, AND OF MINISTER TO LEND, TO MEET DEFICITS ON REVENUE ACCOUNT OF BRITISH RAILWAYS.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Ernest Davies: As you are aware, Sir Charles, we tabled an Amendment on Clause 2 which, I understand, is out of order because it goes beyond the Money Resolution. It would therefore not be in order to debate the Amendment, but I wish to draw attention to certain aspects of the Clause and matters arising out of it.
The Amendment which we tabled proposed to extend the period during which repayment should take place. As the Clause is now drafted, it is provided that the repayment of any money borrowed to finance deficits shall commence from the seventh year after the deficit has been incurred. When that was agreed upon the prospects for the British Transport Commission were far brighter than they are today, even though we then expressed doubts whether the Commission would be in a position to repay the money seven years after the borrowing took place. However, as I stated, the outlook was then much better than it is today, and in our view it is clear that the Commission will find it extremely difficult to fulfil the estimates in the White Paper, namely, that it can break even by 1962, and we await with great interest the findings of the Minister's Committee which is now reviewing the question of modernisation and seeing what is the earliest possible date when the Commission can break even.
This Clause provides that a further £150 million is to be provided to meet the higher deficits which are being incurred. Incidentally, average interest rates so far have been higher than was estimated when the original Bill was presented to the House. If it was decided that a seven-year period was necessary before repayment should take place when only £250 million was to be borrowed, surely it is obvious that if another £150 million plus interest has to be repaid it would be more helpful to the Commission if that repayment could be made over a longer period.
We therefore regret that no such Amendment to the original Bill was proposed. The position will be impossible

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for the Commission. During Second Reading I pointed out that not only would the money borrowed for deficits have to be repaid, but that the interest which accumulated on the borrowings would considerably add to the total amount to be repaid.
I then roughly estimated that, in addition to the £400 million which is to be borrowed by 1962 to meet the deficits, another £100 million would have to be borrowed to meet the accumulating interest. I was challenged by the hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Cole) on that figure. I have since recalculated the figure, and I find that the position is even worse than I expected. As these repayments will commence seven years after the first borrowing, which is 1963, by 1970, when repayments on the borrowings will have to take place, the total interest charges, together with the original £400 million, will amount to about £560 million, which will have to be repaid by the Commission commencing in 1963.
If my figures are correct, it is difficult to believe that it will be possible for the Commission to meet this onerous burden out of future profits. The additional interest which the Commission will have to meet is about £30 million. Does the Minister really believe that from 1963 onwards the Commission will be in a position not only to break even on present reckoning and to meet its central charges —and its total deficit was £85 million last year—but will be able to pay a further £30 million in interest charges from 1963 onwards?
10.0 p.m.
I regret that the outlook is so gloomy and appears almost hopeless, but it is only right that the House should face up to the position and that it should not shut its eyes to the fact that we are postponing the day when the Commission will have to meet its liabilities. We are, I think, rather hypocritical in pretending that we are not subsidising the Commission and calling these loans deficit borrowings. We pretend, as it were, that the Commission will one day be able to repay these amounts instead of accepting that, in the long run, these borrowings are almost certain to turn out to be subsidies. I suggest to the Minister, therefore, that in all honesty he ought to
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inform the House whether he is looking into the matter again and reviewing the position. Does he not believe, with us, that long before repayments are made by the Commission his successor will have to come to the House and present another Transport (Borrowing Powers) Bill in order to write off this amount?
We had a wide debate on Second Reading, and I do not wish to repeat matters which were then canvassed. Since then, however, there has been a further deterioration in the position of the Commission as traffics have continued to decline. Certain other events have occurred which have highlighted the Commission's difficulties. As regards the decline in traffics, the full figures for 1958 have now been published. They reflect the fall in production, particularly in coal and steel, which has so seriously affected the freight carryings of British Railways. During the Second Reading debate, of course, we made the case that the Government were responsible for this state of affairs because of their economic policy of stagnation. To debate that now would be to go rather beyond the normal procedure in Committee.
The fact remains that the decline in traffics during 1958 was very serious indeed. Total freight traffics fell from £407½ million in 1957 to £377¼ million in 1958. In other words, the total freight, parcels and mails carried by British Railways brought in revenue £30¼ million less than during the previous year. Coal carryings alone, because of the fall in production and stocking, fell by practically £6 million, and, as regards minerals, there was a fall of £8½ million as a result of the 11 per cent. fall in steel production. These, of course, account for the two largest carryings on British Railways.
The position is very serious, and it is one which it will be extremely difficult for the Commission to overtake. It will be difficult for the Commission to recapture the traffics, and only through a substantial increase in production, which, unfortunately, does not at the moment look probable, can the Commission expect to increase its carryings. With their greater flexibility, the staff of British Railways are showing that they are far more commercially-minded than hitherto, and, in some cases, British Railways are having some success in obtaining traffics which have been carried by other forms of transport. But a great deal of new traffic must

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be attracted to the railways in order to overtake the fall which has occurred. Competition is very keen, of course, far too keen in our view. There is an excess of transport facilities and the railways suffer unequal competition from road transport, particularly from the ancillary user, the C licensee.
Bad as is the picture in regard to freights, it is more encouraging in regard to passenger traffics, as the Minister himself pointed out on Second Reading. Yet here again the total figures for 1958 are somewhat disappointing. The total receipts from passenger traffics were just under £20 million. They have fallen, admittedly, by only £137,000 during the year, but they were that amount less in 1958 than they were in 1957. However, in view of the great increase in dieselisation, which has brought in a substantial amount of new traffic, as the Minister pointed out, quoting most interesting figures, during the Second Reading debate, one cannot help being disappointed that the total passenger receipts of the railways were not better during 1958. In other words, if we are, on the one hand, attracting in some directions, there must be traffic which is being lost in others. Why should this be? Why is it that the fall in passenger receipts has taken place and the increase in certain types of traffics has not more than counterbalanced the fall in other directions?
Will the railways be able to recover the traffic? The increase in private transport, private motoring in particular, is bound to affect the railways, but part of the trouble lies in deficiencies in the passenger services of British Railways. It is not the fault of the staff, but there is a fault somewhere which the railways have not been able to overcome in an effort to improve their services sufficiently and provide a reliable service on which passengers can be certain to depend.
For example, the figures for the latest four-weekly period during October, when the weather was not particularly inclement or foggy for that time of year —the worst fogs came in November— show that even in October, although there was a considerable improvement over 1957, only 58 per cent. of the express passenger trains on the Western Region arrived punctually, and that is the region which has the best record of
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all. The figure was 55 per cent. on the Scottish Region, 54 per cent. on the North-Eastern, 52 per cent. on the London Midland and 47 per cent. on the Eastern Region.
That is not good enough. If only 47 per cent. on one region can arrive on time, the passengers cannot rely on the services and be certain that they will arrive to keep appointments. The public will not tolerate unpunctuality. Nothing is more infuriating than to be let down by a train. These percentage figures mean that in some cases the delays were considerable whereas in others, of course, they were not of any great account.
The present situation must be remedied if the long-distance passenger traffic is to be held and increased, as it must be, if British Railways are to pay their way. They face competition and must, therefore, be on their toes in this respect. Punctuality must be the first priority. The second, of course, is the provision of adequate facilities, which, unfortunately, are sometimes lacking, particularly in regard to refreshment cars.
I have had correspondence with people who have travelled on expresses from Scotland who, when their train has been three hours late, for example, and they have arrived at about mid-day instead of early in the morning, have found no provision for refreshment. People have arrived at Euston at noon without having had any hot drinks on the train after getting up from their sleepers. That may be exceptional, but it occurs from time to time.
I wonder whether some of the reasons for these failures to provide the adequate services are not the economies which are being instituted and which are endangering the maintenance of an adequate public service by British Railways. On Second Reading, the Minister told us that the Commission had increased the £14 million of economies which it had agreed were possible during 1958 to £20 million and the right hon. Gentleman had ascertained through his auditors that those economies were being effected. He then persuaded —I almost said "forced"—the Commission to increase the economies from £20 million in 1958 to £30 million in 1959.
Does the Minister really think that the Commission can increase these economies, which have been mounting steadily over the years, by a further £10 million

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during this year without in any way endangering the public services? Is he confident that the Transport Commission can maintain adequate services on all its undertakings if it is forced to cut down right, left and centre in this way? We see the results of this.
Again, one is bound to ask whether the difficulties which have arisen on London Transport during recent weeks may not be related to the forcing of economies upon the Commission which make it more and more difficult for it to provide adequate services. Last year, the takings even of London Transport, making allowances for the loss that was inevitable as a result of the bus strike, fell by £9 million. Part of that fall and part of the steady drift away from public transport in London, although largely due, no doubt, to the general traffic conditions, is due equally to the insufficient regard which the Commission—or, in this instance, London Transport—can pay at present to the convenience of the passengers. That is to say, it is forced to impose cuts in bus services and on the Underground and to institute other forms of economy which relegate the convenience of passengers below the desire to see that the Commission pays its way. This gives cause for considerable concern.
We all deplore the demonstration sit-down strikes and the direct action which has been taken, because it causes so much inconvenience to other passengers and disrupts the services which follow behind the trains which are held up by these demonstrations. This action is symptomatic of the feeling which exists among many travellers on the Underground that everything is not being done to maintain the services at the high level of efficiency which they have previously come to enjoy and expected to continue.
Heretofore, relations between the drivers, conductors and station staff and the public had always been happy. It is most regrettable that recently, again, I believe, because of forced economies, there has been such a deterioration in these relations that there is almost antagonism between those who use the Underground and those responsible for its operation.
Sit-down strikes are not the answer by any means. The correct procedure is to make complaints to London Transport and, if one is not satisfied, to see whether the consultative machinery cannot be
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used. It is not good enough merely to inform passengers why detainments have taken place. It is necessary and highly desirable that passengers should be informed through the loudspeaker system, and I am glad that London Transport is now extending the loudspeaker system to a large number of stations. It is rather tardy in doing this, however, and it should have been done long ago. But what is important is not only to inform the passengers, necessary and desirable as that is, but also to remove the causes of these inconveniences.
10.15 p.m.
The main cause is the fact that trains are stopped short of the destination announced. In many cases that is due not to mechanical faults or even to delays which have taken place, for one reason or another, but due to economies made by uncoupling trains. I gather from correspondence that I have received that that has taken place. There is nothing more annoying than to have a train marked with a certain destination and find oneself turned off it short of that destination, often on to a draughty and cold station.
The statutory duty of London Transport Executive as maintained even under the Transport Act, 1953, is to provide an adequate service. I fear that the economies which are being forced upon London Transport are threatening the maintenance of that adequate service and, therefore, making it increasingly difficult for it to fulfil its duties and responsibilities as it is statutorily required to do. I fear that if adequate steps are not taken to ensure that these services are provided there is a danger of a recurrence of those steps recently taken in the form of direct action through sit-down strikes, which are most unfortunate and inconvenient and are not the right way of going about the matter.
There is an assumption in the White Paper on the Modernisation and Re-Equipment of British Railways, on which the estimates were based, that Government policy regarding the framework within which the Commission operates will remain as at present, that is to say, that there will be no structural changes in the organisation of the Transport Commission. If that were departed from, it might well put the Commission in a very serious position and prevent its paying its way as it estimated in the White Paper it would be able to do.

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On Second Reading, I drew attention to the fact that Press reports had appeared of a plan which a committee of Tory back-benchers had drawn up for divesting the Commission of many of its ancillary undertakings. Hon. Members opposite denied that that was the case. I accepted the denial that any plan had been put forward formally by their committee, but the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson) admitted that discussions had taken place.
Mr. John Peyton: The hon. Member attempted to run this hare on Second Reading. I am bound to say, with great deference to you, Sir Charles, that I fail to see how he is in any way justified in bringing this up on the narrow Clause which he is now discussing. I say to the hon. Member now that he is shedding the worst possible light upon his very poor case by bringing up a point of this kind. If, every time a Sunday newspaper cares to air its views and attribute them to a Member of the House, and that attribution is promptly denied, the hon. Member tries to make as much of it as he is doing on this occasion, he reveals, as he persistently does, the absolute poverty of every case that he advances.
Mr. Davies: I thank the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) for his intervention, because I am about to quote something which makes my case far stronger.
However, I want, first, to explain my reason for raising this point. It is that I am convinced that if the suggestions which have been made by hon. Members opposite were carried through, it would be quite impossible for the Commission to repay its borrowings in the way provided in the Clause, and it would make the sum which we are now voting inadequate to meet the deficits which would be incurred up to 1962. For that reason I consider that the matter is in order, but that is something for the Chair and not for the hon. Member to decide.
What I wanted to say was that hon. Members opposite issued a denial of the Sunday Express story. During the Recess, as late as 2nd January, there appeared a story in Motor Transport from that magazine's political correspondent, presumably one of the journalists in the Press Gallery. The story was headed:
"Tory minority's startling plan.
Full denationalisation and abolition of licensing.
From our Political Correspondent."
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The story read:
"A number of Conservative M.P.S who have been examining road transport policy have come to a number of conclusions which, I understand, one of them has sent to the Minister of Transport."
It proceeds to recapitulate what was said in previous reports and goes on:
"The B.T.C. would have to shed many of its ancillary services such as hotels and refreshment services, and either lease or sell outright its shipping and inland waterway services. In this picture the solution is seen to be complete denationalisation of road transport, including road passenger services."
That appeared on 2nd January, after the denial of hon. Members opposite, and I therefore feel fully justified in referring to it. I have seen no denial in Motor Transport of that report, nor have I heard any denial.
The Chairman: I think that the hon. Member is getting away from the Clause.
Mr. Davies: As I said, Sir Charles, if this plan were carried through, it would deprive the Transport Commission of those sections of its undertaking which are earning substantial profits and the sum which we are voting would then be made quite inadequate. I would then have to argue that the amount should be substantially increased. However, I have made my point, except to ask the Minister to give the Committee an assurance that he will not give support to any plan which will deprive the Commission—
Mr. Peyton: On a point of order. I hope that you will agree, Sir Charles, that there has been no intervention from this side of the Committee which was out of order, and yet the hon. Member continues to refer to such a plan which is distinguished only by one fact, that it does not exist even in the minds of Members of the Tory Transport Committee, which is nothing to do with the Bill. My hon. Friend is not here to defend such a plan, because it does not exist. The hon. Member is making constant reference to a nonexistent plan and is thus more than usually out of order and grossly irrelevant.
The Chairman: I did suggest to the hon. Member that he had gone a little too far and I thought that he was getting into order and then encouraging the Minister to go out of order when his turn came, which was rather bad of him.
Mr. D. Jones: On a point of order. In its proposals for railways, the British Transport Commission made it crystal clear that there were five assumptions which had to be made if the plan for modernisation was to succeed. The fourth was that Government policy regarding the framework within which the Commission operates would remain as at present. If, therefore, there is a suggestion that the framework within which the Commission is to operate and break even by 1962 is to be altered the Minister should tell us about it.
Mr. Watkinson: At this late hour I can save a lot of excitement if I ask the hon. Member to read the answer which I gave to his Question today, which was not reached orally. It will save him much needless anxiety.
Mr. G. Lindgren: Will the Minister equally stop the inferences made by hon. Members opposite which tend to cause the Press to take the line that it is now taking? There is no smoke without fire, and the Press obtains its views from conversations with hon. Members opposite.
Mr. Davies: Irrespective of whether or not there is a plan, I hope that the Minister can give a categorical denial of any intention to interfere with the framework in any way which would contravene the assumption made in the White Paper to which my hon. Friend has just referred.
The denationalisation of road haulage deprived the Commission of a considerable amount of money annually, and its profits fell from £9 million to £2 million.
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If its ancillary undertakings are disposed of, not only will it harm the Commission but it will take away its profits.
In conclusion, I regret that it is necessary to be rather pessimistic about future prospects. Unfortunately, nothing has occurred since the Second Reading debate to improve that outlook. I am satisfied that the Commission is doing all it can to improve its position and to reach the target which it has been set of breaking even by 1962. We admire it for the steps that it has taken. Certainly deficit financing is the only way of tiding it over, combined with the much more important modernisation which is taking place.
I am fearful that the sums being passed in Committee, and on Third Reading tonight will prove inadequate to meet the deficits which are likely to be incurred by 1962. I hope that I am wrong in this, but I fear that time will show that we are agreeing not to finance deficits out of loans but to make what will turn out to be subsidies to the Commission. I am convinced about this by the very heavy interest charges which increase this sum so substantially.
The Commission is being asked to carry an intolerable burden. Although the Bill is necessary—and we shall not oppose its Third Reading—for the reason that I have given I fear that it will not be many years before it becomes necessary for whoever occupies the Minister's post to ask for further sums, not to be voted in this way but to be either written off capital or granted in the form of a subsidy.
10.30 p.m.
Mr. Lindgren: At this late hour I do not intend to emphasise unduly the excellent points which have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies), but it is essential to reinforce them from the point of view of the hundreds and thousands of men and women who spend their working lives in the industry covered by the borrowing powers which we are discussing. I reinforce them, too, from the point of view that the capital structure of the Transport Commission is unreal.
I grant to hon. Members opposite that they may say that that structure was created, reinforced— or whatever word they like to use—by the Transport Acts of 1947. That is true, but a great deal has happened since 1947, and for purely political, doctrinaire reasons right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have disturbed the structure of transport operation, so that both the capital construction of the Transport Commission and its operational function are now in an entirely different position from that envisaged under the 1947 Act. It was a structure created by the 1947 Act.
The Commission— or any nationalised industry— has a business requirement totally different from that of any other industry. The charge for interest on its capital is a charge to the industry to be borne before the profit and loss is determined. If the requirements of revenue and operational costs were met, and only then had it to be decided whether there was a profit or not, the position might be a little different, but under the present structure the requirement to meet the interest on the capital of the industry comes before the determination whether there is a profit or a loss. I therefore join my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East in saying that it is impossible for the Commission to break even by the dates mentioned.
Mr. Leslie Thomas: Would the hon. Gentleman clarify the point he is making? How have we altered the capital structure of the Commission since we have been in office?
Mr. Lindgren: Not at all. If I did not make myself clear, I am sorry. I was trying to make the point that the
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capital structure is the same as under the 1947 Act—hon. Gentlemen may have that point—but that what has happened since 1947 is that the functional structure of the Commission has been changed and, also, the co-ordination of the various elements of transport.
It was envisaged that by that co-ordination of road and rail transport the Commission would break even, because of the integration of the various systems of transport. But what has happened? There has been denationalisation of certain of the profitable parts of the transport services; there has been hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of wasteful expenditure on decentralisation; there has been decentralisation of traffic arrangements; the setting up of fresh offices; dispersal of staff from some places and concentration of staff in others. All this has been done because of the purely political, doctrinaire methods determined by the Minister, not by the Commission. Do not forget that the area board traffic arrangements now being established were not the brain-child of the Commission. They were conceived inside the Ministry. The present decentralisation, the empire building, the area boards which were set up, were determined by the Ministry.
Rt. hon. and hon. Members opposite have to determine whether transport is a service or an industry. On the basis of being a service, it can never break even. On the basis of being an industrial undertaking required to show a profit, as I said on Second Reading, only if it undertakes the more profitable sections of transport, road and rail, can it break even if required. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East referred to the recent problems of London Transport. He was correct in saying that a considerable number of them arose from economies which were insisted on by the management of London Transport in an attempt to break even on its revenue accounts.
I shall give a recent instance of the question of transport being a service or an industry. I can give the Minister details of a case concerning road transport, although I do not think it would be fair to mention the organisation concerned by name. It was operating around Lancashire with lorries carrying

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40 tons of traffic and got into difficulties in the fog, ice and snow. This road haulier organisation is a very reputable one and operates under the best conditions. The drivers of the three lorries in convoy, finding themselves in difficulties, asked their headquarters in the north-eastern part of England what they should do. They were instructed to call at the nearest railway station which had a goods yard.
That was in Staffordshire and the load was transferred from road to rail. There was the fullest co-operation between the road haulier and the Transport Commission in getting the 40 tons of traffic transferred. I quote that only as an example of an alternative means of transport which was used under very serious conditions which neither the road haulier nor the Commission could control, but it was a service which could operate under those conditions.
There must be a number of hon. Members in the House who, during the last two or three weeks, have undertaken journeys by rail which otherwise they would have made by road. Conditions made it preferable for them to go by rail in the ice, snow or fog. If we are to have these facilities available we have to determine whether or not we are to meet the capital cost of the facilities on the basis of showing a profit year by year or by recognising that transport is a service.
We have to accept the fact, referred to by my hon. Friend, that unless there is capital reconstruction of the Transport Commission it cannot break even. We have to be honest with the public and say that we have to meet it by some form of subsidy, deficiency payment, or some other way. To go on piling up deficits year after year, and charging interest on the deficit which has been created and paid out of capital, is fantastic to the "ninth" degree and is misleading the public. We ought to be honest both with the public who are users of transport and with the workers in the industry.
I am delighted to hear statements by hon. Members opposite—
Mr. Peyton: Reverting to the Second Reading debate, the story put about by the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) was denied then as it had
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been previously denied. The difficulty that hon. Members opposite so persistently and continuously face is that they are unable to accept these words in the meaning that they are clearly intended to bear. The poverty of their case is shown by the fact that they have done everything possible to find something that will bolster up their case.
Mr. Lindgren: I hope the hon. Gentleman will not get too cross. I am speaking on behalf of men and women who are spending their working lives in the industry. It is disturbing to those persons, whether they are in the hotels or in whatever section of the industry they may be, to be unable to get any confirmation of these statements. The hon. Gentleman denied the first statement that was made in the Sunday Express,but these statements are persisted in by very reputable journals.
Mr. Peyton: By whom?
Mr. Lindgren: By journalists who get their information from some source or other.
Hon. Members opposite may say that railway workers, road transport workers, those engaged in refreshment rooms and hotels and in ancillary undertakings of the Transport Commission are suspicious. But they have seen every profitable section of the transport industry being hived off. The only reason why hon. Gentlemen opposite hived off sections of road transport was that road transport was more profitable than rail transport. It was an opportunity to make a profit.
They have seen the handicap put on London Transport in operating their coach services in off-peak times to get revenue from private coach parties. They have been prevented from operating by the 1953 Act. That tends to cause those workers to be even more suspicious than they otherwise would be when they see in the Press statements alleged to have been made by hon. Members opposite.
Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: It is generally known that the hon. Member for Enfield,East(Mr. Ernest Davies) and other hon. Members opposite are closely associated with Motor Transport,and that the hon. Gentleman is a contributor to it. We ought to have a categorical assurance that hon. Members

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opposite have not been gossiping with the correspondents and putting these stories about.
Mr. Ernest Davies: Occasionally, I have a signed article in Motor Transport,but I am not its political correspondent and I am not in the confidence of the Tory Transport Committee. This purports to come from the Tory Transport Committee. I can assure the hon. Member that I am absolutely innocent of this story, which I certainly would not propagate.
Mr. Peyton: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. I have raised this point before, but is not this subject enlarging the whole scope of this debate beyond the Clause under discussion? Is it not grossly improper that hon. Members opposite should rake up this old stuff to make a party point which is not relevant to the issue under discussion?
The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Gordon Touche): I think that the debate has gone a little wide. What journalists say cannot be relevant to this debate.
Mr. Lindgren: If I was the cause of this digression I am very sorry.
But I would say that one of the biggest factors in the effective operation of transport is the worker who carries out the operation. Whether he is the engine driver, the guard, the porter, the ticket collector, the dining car attendant, a receptionist in a hotel, or whether he is employed in some other section of the industry, it is very disturbing when it is continually said in the Press, whether rightly or wrongly, that this or the other section of transport is to be hived off.
I see that the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance has now arrived. Transport workers remember that he referred to those who accepted responsibility as chairmen of the British Transport Commission as "Quislings." If Tory Ministers refer to the chairmen of the Commission as "Quislings," are we really unduly suspicious in taking very seriously attempts by Tory back benchers to undermine the structure of a nationalised industry?
10.45 p.m.
Mr. Peyton: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. I do not wish to raise frequent points of order, but this is the same one. Are we really discussing allegations about
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"Quislings" now, or are we discussing a rather narrow Clause in a financial Measure? With very great respect, I ask that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) should have this licence curtailed.
Mr. D. Jones: Further to that point of order. We are discussing deficit financing in the Transport Commission. In 1957, the deficit on the railways amounted to over £57 million, but on the ancillary undertakings there was a surplus of about £3 million, which reduced the deficit to be met from this borrowing by that amount. Surely we should be able to argue that those ancillary services ought to remain with the Commission. If they are hived off, obviously the deficit on the Commission's railway services must increase substantially, and the figures which are put in the Bill about money and time will obviously not be sufficient to meet it.
The Deputy-Chairman: Yes, of course, we can discuss anything about finance. It is not a very narrow Clause; it is a wide Clause. But we cannot really discuss rumours.
Mr. Lindgren: All my digressions have not been of my own making, though I admit that I trail my coat, too.
The point I really want to make is this. The worker in the industry makes a very valuable contribution towards the possible profitability of the industry. Continual suggestions or inferences that sections of the undertaking—the most profitable sections of it, as my hon. Friend the Member for The Hartlepools (Mr. D. Jones) very effectively pointed out in his intervention—are likely to be affected undermine morale among the workers. No one likes to be associated with an industry which is constantly being condemned and blamed for not being profitable. Therefore, the sooner we put the financial structure of the industry on a correct basis, upon which those providing the service can charge a reasonable rate to meet the costs of the service, giving them the opportunity to secure the traffics they need to obtain the revenue, the sooner shall we be likely to reach the chance of breaking even.
Mr. L. Thomas: Is the hon. Gentleman now saying that the Transport Commission should raise charges, either passenger fares or freight rates, so that they

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should be profitable? His hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) was advocating a subsidy.
Mr. Lindgren: The fact is that the present capital structure of the Commission, which has to provide an alternative service for both passenger and freight traffic, having to maintain the permanent ways, the signal boxes, the stations, the yards, and all the rest, and provide a staff, means that it is impossible for the Commission to break even. If it is to be an alternative service to be available as required for both passenger and freight traffics, that must be so.
There are only two alternatives. Either charges must be increased to those who use the service to the extent that its cost will be covered, or we must accept that this high capital provision, which is over and above that which is necessary to meet the existing traffic, must be met by other means. We may call that a deficiency payment, a subsidy, or whatever we like. On the basis of the present structure and of possible traffics, however, it is impossible for the service to break even and render a reasonable service to the public and be available to provide an alternative service to be called upon as and when required both for passengers and for freight.
Major Sir Frank Markham: I object, naturally, to the way in which the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) has trailed his coat so much in front of us all. I do not want to tread upon the tails of that coat and widen the argument or increase any bitterness, but the hon. Member has left out of his calculations for bringing the railways on to an even keel one important suggestion which, I know, has bean considered both by the Transport Commission and by my right hon. Friend the Minister.
That suggestion is that it is not only a question of whether there shall be a subsidy or higher fares and freights. There is also the establishment of fair, competitive terms for the railways as compared with road services. In the case of the roads, the State takes over the charge for the permanent way, the signalling and the policing.
Mr. Lindgren: And for breakdowns.
Sir F. Markham: And for breakdowns, in some cases.
I have suggested many times that the State should make the permanent way, the signalling and the policing a State charge. If that were done, the railways, in competition with the roads, would stand a fair chance of breaking even. There would once again be that pride in the railways of paying their own way. I hope that both my right hon. Friend and the Commission will come back again to reconsider giving the railways a fair chance in straight-forward conditions with the roads.
Mr. Lindgren: In May, in the last negotiations on wages, the Minister and the Prime Minister promised that they would examine the question of relieving railways of charges which are unfair but which have to be carried, such as roads over bridges, level crossings and the rest, but they have done nothing.
Mr. Ernest Popplewell: I feel that this debate is taking place in an entirely unnatural atmosphere. We will solemnly pass this Bill authorising the Commission to borrow this extra money. At the same time, there are the previous provisions that the cash must be repaid by a certain date, together with the necessary safeguards. Everyone knows that that is fantastic.
Under the present financial structure, it is completely impossible for the Commission to be anywhere near breaking even by 1962 and then, on top of that, to face interest and central charges which, by that time, will be not in the region of £60 million, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) said, in the region of £90 million to £100 million. That is fantastic. Everyone knows that the Commission will never be able to do it.
We can talk about whether there should be a subsidy or anything else, or whether there should be a reconstruction of the financial arrangements of the Commission. That will have to be undertaken by whoever is in power, and I venture to suggest that it will be our job when we occupy the benches opposite after the next General Election. Therefore, I feel that this is an entirely unnatural debate. We are solemnly to attempt to do all kinds of things, and although I

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do not want to make a long speech, I do want to refer to certain matters which, in my view, need explaining.
The Clause with which we are now concerned—indeed, the whole Bill—is for the purpose of meeting deficiencies on the revenue account of British Railways. During the Second Reading debate, I asked a number of questions which, in my opinion, were concerned with this matter of increasing the expenditure of the Commission, forcing it still further into the "red. "The Minister referred certain of my questions to the Parliamentary Secretary for reply. I asked, for example, about the new programme for concentrating on the London —Manchester electrification works at the expense of other works.
There was no reply to that, and I sincerely hope that the opportunity will be taken tonight to give me a reply. I hope it will, because if work is to be concentrated on the London—Manchester electrification scheme it must be at the expense of other work; and that will mean a further loss of revenue. Other sections which should be modernised will not be attended to so quickly, and the result will be an increase once more in the Commission's deficiency.
We are entitled to know what work is likely to be retarded by this fit of the Minister to concentrate on one aspect of the programme. It is so typical of the Minister; so typical of the administration of this Government.
Mr. Watkinson: I do not dictate the priorities in the modernisation scheme. That is a matter for the Commission to decide.
Mr. Popplewell: Oh, yes, we have heard that so often; but the directives come from the right hon. Gentleman's side of the House. The Commission has to carry out a policy, and that policy is given by the Minister. The Commission has to try to arrange its programme within that policy.
From time to time we have seen this Government going by fits and starts in the matter of transport policy. First, there was a lot of ballyhoo about a modernisation programme costing £1,200 million. In 1957 the brake was applied, and the Commission was put into difficulties. There have been additional costs imposed on the Commission because work which has been commenced has been retarded.
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Then, after work has been retarded, the Minister has come along and said,"Go ahead".
The result is that the Commission has incurred an extra cost of £300 million. That is the effect of what has taken place; and yet again the Minister says that certain work will be given priority while other work is retarded. This policy of fits and starts gives the Commission no chance at all. Work commences, and then the brake is put on with the result, as every practical man knows, of increased costs.
11.0 p.m.
Moreover, instead of the Commission getting its undertaking modernised and getting increased revenue by the dates suggested, this leads to a further slackening in that direction. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will tell us what work will be retarded consequent upon concentration on the extension of electrification on the London—Manchester line. It is no use the Minister evading his responsibility and trying to push it on to someone who cannot answer.
The Minister is responsible to the House for the Commission's operations. The Chairman of the Commission cannot come to the House and shelter behind the Minister. This is a question of policy and the 1947 Act lays down that the Minister is responsible for policy and for the directives. Let him, therefore, not try, as he has attempted so often, to shield himself behind the Commission. I asked for the actual cost of operation of the area boards. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary replied that it was about £20,400. That might be the cost of salaries, but everyone knows that that was not the correct answer. I asked not only about salaries but about the expenses involved. I would press for a further reply to that point.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): May I help the hon. Member? I am not sure whether he was in the House at the time. The reply I gave was that the expenses are negligible. I believed that I would be able to get actual chapter and verse for them, but I am assured by the Commission that they are, in fact, negligible. I said that in col. 627 of the OFFICIAL REPORT.
Mr. Popplewell: Yes, I have that already marked on my copy of HANSARD, but I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's riding off and saying that the cost is negligible. He mentioned a figure of about £20,400, but the other expenses he rides off and says they are negligible. I do not accept that. I have some knowledge of what is taking place in the areas. One wants to know not only about salaries but about other expenses involved in the operations of the area boards.
How often do the boards meet? It is probably once a month, but we do not know. How often does the chairman meet the board? How often does he matter at, or nag, as it has been put, the respective officers of the various areas? How much time is involved in preparing schemes to meet the wishes of chairmen? What expenses are incurred on motor cars? What types of cars are used? Are these cars used only by chairmen of area boards, or are they used by other people? We are entitled to know these things.
I also asked further in that debate questions about the administrative build-up, the empire building that is taking place, and the many appointments made at salaries outside the rates advertised, and above those paid to the special classes. We know from practical experience that this build-up is not in the best interest of efficient administration of the organisation.
I requested some information in this connection. We are entitled to have it, because all these matters have an important bearing on the Commission's costs. They have also an important bearing on how quickly we can get back to a better state of efficiency within the industry itself. It is not my intention to make a long speech on these points tonight, but I hope that we shall get somewhere and that we shall have some information from the Minister without his trying to shed his responsibility and shelving it on to the Commission. It is the Minister who is responsible to the House of Commons. The money which we are authorising is a fantastic sum. It is entirely his responsibility that this Alice-in-Wonderland finance should have been forced on the Commission. Every practical man knows that there is no possibility of this money being repaid.
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Instead of bringing in another Bill of this description, the best thing that the Minister can do is to introduce a Measure which will entirely reorganise the Commission's financial arrangements. The right hon. Gentleman knows that this is a stop-gap and that he will not have to answer when the time comes, because it will be our responsibility, when we are sitting on those benches, to clear up the terrific mess into which the Government have plunged the Commission.
Mr. L. Thomas: I do not propose to detain the Committee at this late hour, but in view of what has been said by the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Da vies) and by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) about the intentions of certain hon. Members on this side of the Committee who are associated with my party's Transport Committee, I must take this first opportunity to deny what was said about a scheme with which my name was associated.
It was a figment of somebody's imagination. To denationalise the railway industry at this time would seriously undermine the country's economy and have serious consequences for the country's communications system. I am sure that that is the view of my hon. Friends whose names were associated with the article. I hope that from now on the suggestions and implications which have been made will cease.
There is no doubt that the British Transport Commission is now bankrupt. It is only the Bill which has saved it. The hon. Member for Enfield, East drew a somewhat gloomy picture of future finances, but I think that he was right to do so. As far as one can gather from the accounts, at present the Commission has a capital structure of about £1,600 million. By the time the modernisation plan has been completed, over fifteen years, the capital structure will be about £3.100 million, or more.
I do not know what the rate of interest on the new capital will be—perhaps the Minister can tell us—and it will obviously vary with day-to-day rates. However, in view of the Commission's present difficulties in meeting its central charges, how much greater will those difficulties be in a few years, with an interest rate considerably higher than the present 3 per cent. which now applies to the bulk

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of its borrowings—Transport Stock 1978–88—and when rates may be as high as 5 or 5½ per cent.?
I want the Minister to clarify a financial point which I do not understand. The latest date for the redemption of the existing Transport Stock is 1988. At some time or other the new capital investment will have to be funded and put on the market. I think I am correct in saying that under the 1947 Act the redemption charge on the Commission is over ninety years. There is, therefore, a gap between 1988 and 2036.
Mr. Lindgren: The hon. Member will not be here then.
Mr. Thomas: I will not be here, but my children might be. Who bears that redemption charge in the meantime? I am not clear; perhaps my right hon. Friend can help me.
The hon. Member for Enfield, East emphasised the point about deficiency, payments. He said that if the other assets of the Commission did not show a profit this deficit would be even larger. I would recall to his mind the exchange of letters between Sir Brian Robertson and my right hon. Friend, published in the recent White Paper, in which Sir Brian said that the revenue from the other assets would just about be in balance. But what happens if the other assets are not in balance, but show a deficit? Is there to be a further demand upon the Exchequer?
It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to talk about not hiving off this, that and the other, but should the taxpayer be called upon to meet the deficit that accrues in the running of a luxury hotel like Moretonhampstead, Tregenna, or Gleneagles? That is the sort of consideration which must be taken into account.
Mr. Charles A. Howell: Can the hon. Member name one hotel that is running at a loss, which the taxpayer will have to pay for?
Mr. Thomas: The hon. Member has missed my point. A considerable number of hotels have been disposed of, and that is a very good thing. I hope that there will be more. I believe that my right hon. Friend has quoted a figure of 17. These hotels have ceased to be an ancillary to the railway. They were built because of the long-distance traffic that
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they would naturally engender, but 99 per cent. of the people going to these hotels today travel by road. It is that sort of thing that we have to watch.
The hon. Member for Wellingborough talked about the existing capital structure, but he did not suggest any new form of capital structure which should be created. The compensation stock which starts with a fixed, flat ceiling, is quite out of relation to the trading aspects of the whole concern. This great transport industry has trading risks exactly as other trading companies have, and its capital should, therefore, be related to the risks involved. I hope that when the final capital structure of the Commission is evolved there will be a scheme by which the Government can bear some of the risk capital, because I cannot see how this industry, as it is at present, can face the enormous strict capital charge which it will have to meet from approximately 1972 onwards.
11.15 p.m.
My only other point was mentioned by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell) and the hon. Member for Wellingborough, in connection with the existing organisation. I do not believe any railwayman today who has any sense of responsibility of management would like to go back to the old functional organisation of the executive, because if there was one organisation which undermined the morale of the railwayman because it failed to give him the responsibility and authority to which he is entitled, it was that organisation.
I believe that one of the problems in the profitability of this industry is the fact that still today there is not sufficient delegation of authority right down to the lowest possible level.
Mr. Lindgren: Perhaps the hon. Member will take an opportunity, which no doubt the Minister will arrange for him, to visit one of the new line traffic offices which are being built, the staff being shifted here, there and everywhere, and see for himself, if he will not take it from me that this is so, that whole lines are being disorganised to build up this new organisation. The people there will tell him that this is a complete waste of money and thoroughly ineffective. Let the hon. Member ask the staff.
Mr. Thomas: It is nearly thirty years since I left the railways. When one joined that great service—and although it is thirty years since I left there is always a niche in one's heart for one's first love —one always understood that one was joining a service in which one was liable to be moved here and there. I do not think there is any more shifting around than there was in those days. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, yes there is."] Labour has to be mobile in this economy in particular.
Lastly, I come to the matter of the commercial approach. It affects profitability. We have been told time and time again that when the passenger services have been modernised, either by dieselisation or complete electrification, the results have been extraordinarily good, and that lines which in the past have shown a loss, or only just saved a loss, are now showing a profit.
Mr. Lindgren: Operationally.
Mr. Thomas: That is fine.
What is happening today? Particularly on those lines which are being modernised, where as a first experience of modernisation we should expect a degree of profit, the Commission is making application to put up its charges.
Mr. Popplewell: Oh, really.
Mr. Thomas: Yes.
Mr. Popplewell: Where?
Mr. Thomas: It is a frightening thought. I would ask the hon. Member to come on my line. It is a frightening thought that there are season ticket holders who are not yet today getting their money's worth. The hon. Member for Enfield, East emphasised the delays. I can assure the hon. Member that one cannot make an appointment in London within half an hour of the scheduled time of any of the trains from the North Kent coast. Any member of the travelling public on those trains can say that is true, and the general manager will admit it. At the time that electrification of that section is due to be completed—it is to be in operation by June—and we are entitled to expect increased profitability, the Commission ask for the right to increase fares. That is not the correct commercial approach which should be made by this great industry.
Mr. Popplewell: I do not think the hon. Member has amplified the argument he was trying to make. He says that with modernisation and dieselisation and increased traffic the Commission is still having to apply to put up charges. Would he not be a little more honest and say the reasons why the Commission is having to put up charges are such reasons as these, that there has been a 550 per cent. increase in sleeper charges, a 245 per cent. increase in the cost of copper tubes, a 470 per cent. increase in the price of brass bars? Would it not be more honest to bring out these increases in costs? Against what? Just over 175 per cent. increase in charges.
Mr. L. Thomas: I am not going through all that; it is too late at night. I think I have made my point on the commercial approach. My final point follows on what the hon. Member has just said. In the light of the changed circumstances the increased requirement in these deficiency payments of £150 million visualises a heavier deficit next year and the year after than that envisaged for 1958, which was £85 million. A complete reappraisal of the whole structure is needed. I hope my right hon. Friend will give a general direction with a view, if necessary, to ensuring that there is a reduction in capital costs, but in any case a complete reappraisal of the whole modernisation plan, which itself will be overwhelming in the next twelve or fifteen years.
Mr. C. A. Howell: It is, perhaps, a tragedy that the discussion of an item of between £250 million and £400 million should come on so late at night, when everyone obviously has to curtail his remarks in deference to others who want to speak. Like the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr L. Thomas), one has to make part of a statement and cannot elaborate as much as one would like. It is probably one of the absurdities of legislation that we should have so little time to discuss so large an amount of money.
I am rather glad that the hon. Member for Canterbury came on to the commercial side of the matter before he finished his speech. Like him, I have been associated with railways—for thirty-six years. I was also very glad to hear him pay tribute to railwaymen.

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He and I ought to pay tribute to railwaymen because both of us to some extent owe them a debt of gratitude and without them, for different reasons, we should not be here. On more than one occasion the Minister of Transport has paid tribute to railwaymen of Britain, particularly to their work in fog and snow. References have been made in the last fortnight to the dense snow we had in 1947.
Those tributes come like salt on the tongue of a railwayman, because we do not know what is to happen. I make no apology for coming back to the question of the Sunday newspaper article which was mentioned. I did not write the article. I have never written an article for any newspaper or periodical without attaching my name to it. I would never write one under a nom de plume.I have written many articles on railway work and they have been published in this country and abroad. I wrote many for the Railway Review,of which for a time I was a director, but I have never written for Modern Transport.This is the first time I have heard it suggested that Modern Transport was not a responsible periodical, but we heard it suggested opposite that it was some figment of someone's imagination—
Mr. Gresham Cooke: Motor Transport,not Modern Transport.
Mr. L. Thomas: I said that the article in the Sunday Express was the figment of someone's imagination.
Mr. Howell: If I got it mixed up, I apologise. I hope that the hon. Members of the Transport Committee opposite will make perfectly clear and have published a repudiation in the same newspaper.
Sir F. Markham: Surely the hon. Member is well aware that repudiation has been made in this House half a dozen times and that the Sunday Express never prints categorical denials. The hon. Member ought not to repeat what is no more nor less than a damnable series of lies.
The Deputy-Chairman: Order. I think that we had better get back to the Bill.
Mr. Howell: I apologise, Sir Gordon. I will not return to that matter. We are discussing the extension of power to spend a lot more money. I want to come
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back to the suspicion of men in the industry. They are entitled to be suspicious after the perpetration of acts by hon. Members opposite in siphoning off that part of the transport industry which is making a profit and leaving the railwayman with low wages to pay for the siphoning off. We cannot expect them to be anything else but suspicious. If they read in Motor Transport that the Tory Party Transport Committee is considering ways in which they can siphon off some more to their friends, we cannot expect railwaymen to sit down and not say, as they did when the Minister of Transport agreed to setting up these boards, "Here is another batch of non-producers to be paid for."
Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: My hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) is the Chairman of that Transport Committee; I am the Vice-Chairman, and my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. L. Thomas) is the Secretary. We have all three denied in this House that the statement in the Sunday Express was an accurate statement of the views of the Conservative Party Transport Committee.
Mr. Howell: May I make it perfectly clear that I accept that. I hope that that is quite clear. I have said so in English that is as perfect as I, with my education, can make it.
What hon. Members opposite will not understand is that railwaymen who have contacted me, and with whom I have worked for thirty-six years, have heard this and have read it, and, naturally, they are suspicious. They are bound to be suspicious. They are suspicious of the Minister of Transport. I will admit that he is the best Minister of Transport that the party opposite has ever produced. I give him credit for that, and I have said so previously. I am not so bigotted in my political views as to withhold credit when I feel it should be given.
I wrote an article in the Railway-Review bitterly criticising the appointment of Sir Brian Robertson, but I withdrew that criticism subsequently when, in the course of my trade union career, I had to negotiate with the gentleman. I found that he is a jolly sight better railwayman than many others who had had the job, and he knew what he was talking about. I was primarily responsible for the railway strike in 1953, but

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it was Sir Brian who stopped it. I give respect where it is due. But I do not think that Sir Brian Robertson or the Minister of Transport are fully conversant with what the Transport Commission is doing with this money.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough has referred to the reorganisation. If that has got to come out of this money—which immediately puts me in order, Sir Gordon—I want to tell the Minister that many Members on both sides of the House who have any association with the railways are inundated with protests. I refer to such places as Birmingham, Nottingham and Derby. To give an example, the control staff at Burton-on-Trent were moved to Birmingham. That meant uprooting their homes and buying new homes in Birmingham. Those people have now got to move from Birmingham to Derby. Some of the Derby people have got to move to Manchester and some have got to go to Nottingham. The whole section at Derby is to be closed and the people there are moving to Nottingham. Is that to be paid for out of these millions of pounds?
I will withdraw what I have said if the Minister or the Transport Commission can quote one railwayman, either in the traffic grades, the clerical grades, or the supervisory grades—anybody below an official at the top—who has said that in his opinion this can pay its way. Everyone says it cannot pay. It will waste thousands, if not millions, of this money and it will not put one wagon on the road again. It will not get one of us into King's Cross or St. Pancras ten minutes earlier. But it will cost a great deal of money. There is not a railwayman on the job who approves of it or has agreed with it, despite all the consultations which have been arranged in order to try and explain it.
11.30 p.m.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Canterbury talked about being commercially-minded. It is the commercial side which is responsible for a great deal of the trouble. I am very apprehensive about what will happen to the other millions of pounds if the same attitude of mind prevails in the Transport Commission. The Commission is simply not commercially-minded. I interjected a comment at one point when the hon.
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Gentleman was talking about disposing of the hotels. I was in some of the negotiations about certain of the hotels, and the Hotels Executive, as it then was, told us that these hotels were losing money. They were for ever likely to do so. I had to pay through the nose when I stayed at one during the negotiations. One never had decent service there, and they did not cater properly for the people there. But what happened when the Commission sold them? Managers were put in who would cater for the traffic that was there.
One hon. Gentleman said that this is not rail traffic. Of course it is not rail traffic, but this other traffic was there when the Transport Commission had the hotels but it did not cater for it. I am too old in the tooth to be told that anyone would buy hotels if he was not satisfied that he could make a commercial proposition out of them. If other people can make a commercial proposition out of them, so should the Transport Commission, either by putting in managers with a free hand to make them pay or taking off some of the red tape and letting the men there have a go, perhaps recruiting somebody who can do the job.
Let us commercialise the railways. The hon. Member for Canterbury was wrong again when he spoke about dieselisation, or modernisation—I am not sure which it was. I had a meeting with two line superintendents at Birmingham, one from the Western Region and one from the Midland Region. They said at that meeting that not one line was actually making a profit. They were making much more money, but not one of them was yet paying. Things may have changed in the few months since then; I do not know. The fact is that there are very many lines which are not profitable. That is why none of these unprofitable things would ever be siphoned off.
The Commission has cut down the traffic so that there are fewer trains to run. Presumably, we must have the same amount of traffic. Will this give decent comfort for the passengers? I will give the Minister one example. I hope he will forgive me if I do not mention the names and details, because the matter is at the moment sub judice,but I think I am entitled to give him an idea of the facts. A Sunday excursion was put on the main line. At the second stop, a rather large

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station, the train was full. After it left, an irate passenger went to the guard's van and told the guard that he and his wife had first-class tickets but could not find first-class seats. The passenger said that he was convinced that there were second-class passengers riding in the first-class seats.
The first-class coach was the second coach from the engine and the guard's van was the eleventh. To placate the irate passenger, the guard, as a good, commercially-minded railway man, walked through the whole of that train, despite the fact that many people were standing in the corridors, to the first-class coach. He inquired politely whether all the passengers there held first-class tickets. Out of the whole coach, he found two passengers who had second-class tickets. He asked them if they would vacate their seats because there were first-class passengers standing, and they said that they would not; they were prepared to pay the first-class fare.
The hon. Member for Canterbury, who has had railway experience, knows that if passengers are prepared to pay, there is no one with authority to eject them. But what happened? The guard said, "I am sorry; I cannot turn them out, but, if you like, I will try and find two seats in the second class". Doing something which the Transport Commission will not issue an order for—I know this from correspondence with the Commission—he asked passengers in an adjacent compartment to lift the arms between the second-class seats and find two places for these two irate passengers.
Immediately afterwards the passenger wrote to the superintendent and said that the guard was guilty of a gross neglect of duty, first, for not turning out the second-class passengers and, secondly, for not taking the excess fare from them. That shows the ignorance of the public, whom the Transport Commission does not try to educate. The guard had no authority to turn out the passengers or to take their excess fare, because he would not know the charge and he would not have an excess fare book.
That illustrates the ignorance of the public and the lack of advertising by the Commission. This caused my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest
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Davies) to make one of the same errors that many people make in London concerning the dispute on the Underground. He said that when a train stops at a station, people have a sit-down strike because, very often, it is a question of the economies affecting the train. My hon. Friend can correct me if I am wrong, but that was how I understood him.
Economies in transport are not made while a train is running. That is a question of the control and occupation of the line, what we call line occupation.
Mr. Ernest Davies: What I said was that one had suspicions that certain of the economies being made by London Transport were responsible for the greater inconvenience which the passengers are suffering. One instance was the uncoupling of trains. Today certain trains are not run all the way through to their destination because savings can be made if they are cut short. They are uncoupled at certain stations to save power and so on, and that is a result of the economies.
Mr. Howell: That is exactly what I thought my hon. Friend said, and I hope to convince him that he is wrong. These economies are not made whilst a train is running. If a train is to terminate at a different station for economy reasons the driver and the guard know when they start the journey and the destination will be given on the train, showing that it is going only to a certain point.
Changes are made only when, as a result of line occupation, a train in, say, the up direction becomes late, with the result that there are insufficient down trains to take all the traffic in that direction. Only a small explanation is needed to make the public understand. We can visualise what happens. A train has to go from the terminus at one end of the line to the terminus at the other end and then come back, or it must be turned back before it gets to the terminus. If it becomes so late in its running in the one direction that it cannot keep time and crowds of people are waiting to go in the opposite direction, obviously it is good railway business to pull the train out from the down direction and send it back in the up direction to take the waiting traffic.
My objection is that the Transport Commission does not try to tell the public what is happening. The best thing that the Minister could do is to hand this part

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of transport over to the Milk Marketing Board. If it goes on much longer with its advertisements with the little lions and has film stars to advertise for it, we shall soon be egg-bound, as the railways are becoming fog-bound. [An HON. MEMBER: "Egg bound, or milk bound?"]. I should have said the Egg Marketing Board. I apologise for getting mixed up.
Apart from advertising the excursions, the Commission gives the impression to the public that it could not care less. That is not the way to get the confidence of the people. I cannot recall a time since the nationalisation of railways when the Commission's prestige has been as low as it is now. It may be that the London Transport sit-down strikes are making matters worse. It may be that the elimination by the Commission of certain trains which people have used for years upsets the public, but I have been on sufficient committees concerned with the closure of branch lines to realise that the Commission does not tell the people why these things are necessary in the same way as it shows pictures to explain, for example, the Barking reorganisation, what it is intended to do and its progress.
The hon. Member for Canterbury has spoken about it being impossible to make an appointment with less than half-an-hour's margin for trains from the North Kent coast. Passengers blame the staff, and people travelling on the Underground also have been blaming the staff. I submit, however, that they are blaming the wrong people. It is the management who should be blamed. When people are delayed the first thought is often to take it out on the staff; the reaction is to take it out of the man on the job. I would prefer that the public wrote to the Commission, although I have seen letters claiming that it is no use complaining to the Commission because all one gets in return is a plausible apology.
The Minister has a responsibility. He has told my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell) that he cannot give directives to the Commission about which priorities it should choose. The Commission is responsible to the Minister, who has only to indicate what it is he wants, and I hope that after tonight's discussion he will say to the Commission, "You have a job to do and, if you do not want to
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alienate the good will of the passenger, then you must give a better explanation about delays than are given now. "Instead of spending millions of pounds on reorganising the railwaymen. I suggest that it would be much better if the Commission reorganised its commercial and advertising departments.
Mr. Watkinson: The whole House must be very grateful to the Chair for having allowed so wide a debate on this Clause, but it is, I think, in lieu of a debate on Third Reading.
I will try as quickly as I can to traverse the ground which has been covered tonight, and I would say at the outset that perhaps the most important matter raised was that by the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) on the question of the "break-even point." The reappraisal of the Commission of what is needed—carried out with the help of some of its customers—will take account of that fact. I think that the Commission has been wise to have views expressed by the Federation of British Industries, the Chambers of Commerce, the National Union of Manufacturers, and so on, but it was foreseen when we introduced the original Transport (Borrowing Powers) Act that to look ahead for a number of years was something which would give flexibility to the terminal date and to the terms of repayment.
Perhaps the House has forgotten that the terms of repayment were left in a flexible state. The amount of repayment up to the seventh year was a matter left to the Commission, with power to make a token repayment if it was thought that that was all it could do, and at the end of the seventh year, after the initial repayment at the Commission's discretion, the matter was left with the Ministry and the Treasury to decide.
Mr. Ernest Davies: The right hon. Gentleman says that the Commission had to make a token repayment up to the seventh year. Is that correct?
Mr. Watkinson: Yes; and this whole question of repayments was deliberately left in a flexible way in the sense that the matter could be looked at in the light of developing circumstances. There was never any attempt to lay down an arbitrary system of repayment. The date 1961–62 was not selected by the Government.

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11.45 p.m.
It was a duty put forward by the Commission, as part of its prospectus on which the House advances it very large sums of money, to cover its deficits until it thought it would reach its break-even point. It is also fair to the Commission to say that up to the end of 1957 it was on target, and it is only the drop in coal and steel contracts—which certainly in the case of steel will come back—that has put the Commission out on the basis on which it said it would break even in 1961–62.
I do not think it is for me to be optimistic or pessimistic at this point, but it is for me to tell the House that the forecasts made by the Chairman when he wrote to me as to the final outturn of 1958 have been remarkably accurate. They have not been falsified by events. Indeed, they have been almost exactly right. As the House will recollect, we took steps to ensure that there is not a loss to competition. Indeed, the Commission is winning more of the coal traffic that is available. Perhaps it is a sidelight, as my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. L. Thomas) said, that, as most hon. Members know, the gain which oil had over coal was after the price of coal had been raised to a high level, which made oil more attractive. Perhaps there is a lesson there for the railways. With the coming of the motor car and intense competition, one can price oneself out of the market only too easily today.
As I said, however, it is not my job to be either optimistic or pessimistic about the future. It is for the Commission to forecast about its future. It is only fair to say that for the passenger side, in the latter part of 1958, against the corresponding periods in 1957, the figures are, for example, for the four weeks to 7th September, 1958, ·5 million up on the previous year, for the four weeks ending 5th October 6 million, for the four weeks to 2nd November ·3 million, and then ·1 million up for the four weeks ending 30th November, and 1·8 million up for the four weeks up to 28th December. In other words, on the passenger side, where modernisation has had its first impact, there is a definite and ascertainable improvement. Whether that will hold next year or what the position will be is not
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for me to say, but the Commission's own gauge has been so far the basis for the Government's financial arrangements and it remains. If it comes to a need for a reappraisal, it is up to the Commission to tell the Government and the country, but that position has not been reached yet.
Perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury will allow me to discuss long-term finance at an earlier hour some other time, which I should be happy to do; but on the general issue whether the Commission is becoming overburdened, although I do not entirely accept his view that it is bankrupt, it is certainly in the hands of its bankers, meaning the Government. But this is a business with a £750 million turnover a year. Therefore, it should not be alarming to us if we find ourselves talking in rather big figures when we discuss its present and future.
It is the Commission's own wish, as it is the Government's wish, that as it is in the hands of the country, which is really its bankers, it should be subject to stiff financial discipline. This is not some form of bullying the Commission. It is the Commission's wish, as it is the Government's, and, indeed, I think the wish of all sensible people, that in that situation the Commission should have firm financial discipline as the spur to get itself out of its difficulties by its own efforts. It is only right and honest.
Unpunctuality worries us all and does affect the financial position. One cannot go through a vast electrifying and modernisation plan and keep an exact scale of punctuality. It may be that the Commission would have been wiser—it is the business of the Commission and not mine—to have altered its timetables to less exacting schedules. However, that is a matter for the Commission. The reason for the unpunctuality, nevertheless, is the modernisation plan itself. Absolute punctuality figures as quoted by the hon. Member for Enfield, East are not an entirely fair test. If those long-distance trains which are five or ten minutes late are disregarded, the figures of unpunctuality are materially reduced.
There are economies which hon. Members are fond of criticising as being things which prevent the Commission doing what it wishes to do. Hon. Members with those views should read the

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modernisation plan again. They will see that this cutting down was always part of the plan. All we are doing is to ask the Commission, and the Commission has agreed, to do it more quickly. This pruning away of the railway services, this narrowing down of the front, is not some new idea suddenly thought up by the Government. It is part of the original modernisation plan produced by the Commission itself. All the Commission is doing is trying to do it more quickly. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. C. Howell) for his compliment which was—
Mr. D. Jones: May I interrupt?
Mr. Watkinson: No, not until I have finished my argument— nearer the truth. It is absolute nonsense to say that any of the difficulties with the Underground or with the railway services as a whole are due to cuts in capital expenditure. The fact is, in the words of the Chairman of the Commission himself, at the moment the Commission has all the capital money it can use.
I am dealing with two matters; first, the economies are those laid down in the original modernisation plan and are not some new idea suddenly thought up; secondly, deficiencies in services, whether Underground or railways, are nothing to do with the fact that the Commission has had its capital investment cut. The reverse is true. The Commission, it says, has all the capital investment which it can use at present. There is therefore no reason for saying that the Commission's task has been made more difficult. On the contrary, I am amazed at the ingratitude of hon. Members opposite for the fact that these large sums, which politically could be more easily spent on roads, for example, are still being put into the railways so that the railways should have every chance to give a properly efficient and modern service.
Mr. Ernest Davies: The Minister must have misunderstood some of the argument from this side of the Committee. It was never suggested that the cuts in capital expenditure were affecting the operations of British Railways or London Transport. My argument was that the economies being forced on London Transport made it cut down its services. Those are the economies affecting
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services. Nobody has suggested that it is a matter of capital expenditure, which we support.
Mr. Watkinson: I am very glad to hear it, but no economies have been forced on London Transport. London Transport is responsible to the British Transport Commission, not to me. Planned economies are things which London Transport settles with the Commission and not with me or any other member of the Government.
Mr. Lindgren: May I interrupt?
Mr. Watkinson: No, not until I have finished my argument.
The difficulties on the bus services are entirely due to the departure of the customer after the bus strike. That is the hard fact in that case, as I said at the time.
Mr. Lindgren: Will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that as a result of agreement after wage negotiations last May, resulting in an increase in costs of 3 per cent., the Commission had to achieve certain economies? Did not the achievement of those economies have a certain effect on efficiency?
Mr. D. Jones: The right hon. Gentleman said that the contraction of the railway system was nothing to do with him; it was a matter for the Commission. But did he not say during the Second Reading debate that he was asking the Chairman of the Commission to increase the £20 million saving that the Commission seeks to make in 1959, in spite of the fact that it has already saved the £3 million which it said it would in the document entitled "Proposals for Railways"? The Chairman of the Commission admits in his letter to the Minister that it has saved, in economies, £6 million of the wages increase earlier last year and that it hopes, in addition, to save a further £20 million in 1959 by contraction. In the Second Reading debate the Minister said he was asking the Commission to raise that to £30 million. Is not that contracting?
Mr. Watkinson: That is quite so; that is exactly what I said. All I am asking the Commission to do is to achieve a great deal more quickly than originally envisaged the contraction in the industry set out in the modernisation plan. Nobody who has studied the situation from an

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unbiased point of view has ever said anything else but that the future of the railways lies in a much smaller, much more efficient, and much more modern system. Those people who oppose that are doing the greatest possible disservice to the railwaymen that it is possible for anybody to do.
I will sum up by saying that I am glad that the Opposition are not opposing the Bill, because on its provisions for modernisation rests the whole hope of railwaymen for the future. Any railwayman who believes in his job—as they all do—accepts that as true, and I am glad to hear from the hon. Member for Enfield, East, that hon. Members opposite accept that the Government are doing a very good job in providing this very large sum of capital to try to put the railways on their feet.
We argued out the question of deficit financing in the Second Reading debate, and I would only add that if in the early years after the last war this House had been worrying about modernisation instead of nationalisation, a great deal of the present difficulty would not have arisen.
I would sum up the difference in our respective approach by saying that we hear a lot about monopoly and subsidy from hon. Members opposite, but I want to make it quite plain that the Government believe that the consumer should have the right to choose the kind of transport which he thinks best fits his needs and cuts his costs. The Opposition believe the State should dictate that choice for him. We reject that entirely, and we believe that we are doing the very best we can as a Government to put the railways on their feet and to make them into a modern, efficient and streamlined service, and the very best for the sake of the country and the men who work so selflessly for the railways. I am glad that the Bill will be passed, because it is a necessary step to that desirable end.
Mr. D. Jones: I would not have intervened if it were not for the cheap political gibe which the Minister made towards the end of his speech. It does not behove the right hon. Gentleman to talk about nationalising or modernising the railways in the years from 1945 to 1950. I would remind him that his Government have been in power since 1951.
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We are now in 1959, nearly eight years later. In the first year following the end of the war, when the railways were privately owned, their deficit was more than £ 60 million. In the years of war, when the control was on, the Government reaped nearly £250 million in excess charges on the railways, made by carrying Government traffic, it is true. The railwaymen suffered as a consequence.
The Minister now says that what the House should have engaged in in 1945 was the modernisation of the railways. Either he speaks with his tongue in his cheek or he does not appreciate what the economic circumstances of this country were in 1945. If the railways had not been nationalised in 1947 the modernisation programme at present would not have been possible.
12 midnight.
I do not want to detain Members by repeating some of the figures my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) gave on Second Reading, but we know the kind of return which in the years before the war when the railways were allowed to decay the shareholders got, and we know the kind of conditions in which the railwaymen worked in the years immediately before the war. When the war was over the restitution of the economic life of this country was of fundamental importance, and to bring the railways under public ownership was the only possible means of modernising them.
If the question is about modernising them between 1945 and 1950, will the right hon. Gentleman say what the Conservative Government were doing between 1951 and 1955? It ill behoves him to make that kind of gibe at the end of his speech, when he himself is a member of the party which has been in Government since 1951. Since that time the deficits of the railways have got worse with each successive year. The right hon. Gentleman told us once that what he was seeking to do in the Ministry was to inject the best principles of private ownership into this nationalised industry. Did he mean by that an increasing deficit each year until seven years after his party took power the railways were £85 million in the red? Of that, £13 million is entirely due to the

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economic policy which has been pursued by the right hon. Gentleman's Government. It ill becomes him, even at this late hour, to make that gibe.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed.

NUCLEAR POWER STATIONS (SAFETY)
Motion made, and Question proposed.That this House do now adjourn.—[Colonel J. H. Harrison.]
12.2 a.m.
Mr. Goronwy Roberts: The matter I wish to raise tonight is one of transcendent importance to every man, woman and child in this country, and, indeed, to the human race, namely, the hazards which are created by nuclear fission. Let me say, at the outset, that I am not raising this matter in an alarmist spirit. My whole intention is to give the Government, through the Minister, an opportunity of placing the whole matter in proper perspective. There is an abundance of data on this question, but it is remarkable how inconclusive it is and how contradictory the expert interpretations of this data can be, and it is to the Government that we must turn for final authority. In this matter, above all others, they have the duty of clarity.
The matter is of particular interest and concern to us in North-West Wales for two reasons: first, the projected building of two nuclear power generating stations in the area; and, secondly, there have been recent reports that the incidence of strontium 90 in the area is far higher than the average for the country and that it is increasing.
Let me take the question of the nuclear power stations first. Clearly, the hazard which they notionally present is quite different in origin and in controllability from the other kind of danger. In common with the great majority of the people of the area, I have very strongly welcomed the intention to build these two stations, as my hon. Friend the Member for Merioneth (Mr. T. W. Jones) has done. One of them is now being built
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in Trawsfynydd, in Merioneth, and we very much hope to see the second go up in Edern, in Caernarvonshire, in my constituency. We regard them as examples of a new, beneficial industry of the future which will provide constructive employment in an area at the head of the queue which is waiting for work.
My own view, not one reached hastily but after considerable inquiry and study, is that such installations are at least as safe for the workers and local population as most other industries. That is my view. There are, however, fears expressed in some quarters that such establishments constitute a fearful hazard. To clarify the position, I should like to put a number of questions to the Minister. The Windscale mishap is widely quoted by critics of these stations. Is it correct to say that that kind of accident is not technically possible in the type of reactor which is projected in the Trawsfynydd installation and the other new stations?
Secondly, there are suggestions that those stations are subject to seepage or leakage of radioactive matter which could adversely affect the health and safety of human beings, animals in the locality and also of vegetation. What truth is there in that? Is it correct to say that what leakage there may be is so small as practically to be harmless?
Thirdly, can the Minister reassure us about the disposal of radioactive waste? What method of disposal will be adopted with regard to an inland station like Trawsfynydd and to a coastal station like the one projected at Edern, and will the results be harmless to the population, agriculture and fisheries in the area?
I turn to the second part of the inquiry I made. The reason we want the maximum assurance about the safety of the stations is that, after all, they are to be built in an area where the intake of strontium 90 is as a result of nuclear explosions throughout the world is already higher than in the country generally. It is quite well known that parts of Wales, like parts of Cumberland, Scotland and other districts in the United Kingdom, show a greater intake of this substance as a result of the fall-out from nuclear explosions.
This factor, naturally, has attracted the anxious attention of some of the foremost scientists. I call to mind two outstanding

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Welsh scientists who, very properly, have made a special study of these peculiar conditions in Wales, Dr. Glyn Phillips, of Cardiff University College, and Dr. Eirwen Gwynn, of Criccieth, both of whom have written ably and responsibly about these hazards.
Recently, the Medical Officer of Health for the Borough of Caernarvon and the rural district of Gwyrfai—also a Dr. Phillips, Dr. E. A. Phillips—presented a report to those two local authorities in which he explained how in areas of high rainfall like North-West Wales the rate of deposition of strontium 90 on the ground and on foliage is very much higher than in other areas. He says that it may be passed to humans through their intake of water, milk, vegetables and meat. He further points out that both the soil and the drinking water of this area are deficient in calcium for which strontium 90 is a hideous and intrusive substitute.
The medical officer of health gives figures to show what the position is. I will quote only a selection tonight, contenting myself with sending to the Minister the officer's full report. Recent tests of drinking water in North-West Wales have shown that the radioactivity in terms of strontium 90 micro-curies per litre was 5·6 and 5·2. These figures are equivalent to 7 per cent. of the international maximum permitted limits for radioactivity in drinking water, and, expressed as the maximum permitted limit for Thames water, this would be 28. The report also quotes figures showing that the extent of strontium 90 detected in humans, animals and vegetation in these areas is considerably higher than in others, and there are suggestive facts about the indication in such areas of peculiarly dreaded diseases.
The question is what conclusions should we draw from these figures. I sometimes think that ten times practically nothing is still practically nothing, but there is need for greater clarity and precision as between the Government and the general public, and perhaps officers in various departments of the public service. These figures certainly provide grounds for concern. My question is: do they provide grounds for alarm? Are the Government alarmed? We think that the official interpretation of these figures should be made absolutely clear, and I
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join with my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins), who has most advisedly been pressing the Prime Minister to make the position clear in terms which the average layman can understand.
What the medical officer of health in question has done is simply to draw attention to the facts. Very wisely and responsibly he and the authorities whom he serves have refrained from interpreting them. We feel that the burden of interpretation is on the Government, and I hope tonight that the Minister can put the whole matter in clear perspective so that we may avoid both complacency and alarmism in this vital matter.
There are one or two specific questions on this matter of area susceptibility to strontium 90 which I will put as briefly as I can. First, what is the hazard that faces these areas of high rainfall and low calcium? Can it be defined and measured? Secondly, is there now an authoritative assessment of the true safety level of absorption of these substances? Thirdly, we know that tests for radioactivity in humans, animals and vegetation are now carried on in three places in Wales—in Talgarth, Cwm Ystwyth and Lake Vyrnwy. Should not these tests be conducted in other parts of Wales and, indeed, in the United Kingdom, and proper records kept?
In sum, what we seek tonight is: first. a reassurance—which I think the Minister can give—about the safety of these new nuclear stations; and, secondly, an expression of a sense of perspective and clarity in regard to the position in what are now known as the susceptible areas in the United Kingdom.
12.15 a.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Sir Ian Horobin): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. G. Roberts) for raising this matter. He will agree that at this late hour and in the small amount of time available I cannot go into great detail. Fortunately, there will be an opportunity very shortly, when the Government present the Nuclear Installations (Licensing and Insurance) Bill, to go into these matters more thoroughly.
I will, if I may, cover in reverse order the two heads of the hon. Gentlemen's

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questions. I will take the one he puts second first because it is a little more complicated than the one about the nuclear stations themselves. This is, of course, a highly technical matter, and I do not pretend to be a medical expert upon it. Fortunately, there is more or less general agreement between the Medical Research Council, the body which is the principal adviser of the Government on this matter and which is of the highest standing, and the United Nations Scientific Committee which has issued a Report, which the hon. Gentleman may have seen.
I think that it is fair to say that a good many of those who have been in the opposition, if I may put it that way— I will not say alarmist—have been people who, while they are, in many cases, scientists of very great eminence in other fields, are not, by and large, working in this particular field.
Speaking as a layman, as the hon. Gentleman asked me to do, I would say that the first point we should be clear about in understanding the situation is that these radioactive isotopes— strontium 90, caæium, iodine, and one or two others—all have physical half-lives. Some die away faster than others, strontium in a matter of years, some of the others in minutes. What is more important, and, perhaps, not so widely realised, is that there is a biological half-life, too. The whole body is perpetually renewing itself. Even the bone structure is changing, and, therefore, the rate of elimination of these things from the human body is faster, and the equilibrium level to which they build up is very much lower than would otherwise be the case. Not only is that so, but— and this is very important—there is, as it were, a series of filters through which these things go.
To take radioactive strontium in particular, what happens is that it is washed down from the stratosphere and goes on to the ground. Only a small proportion of what goes on the ground comes up in the grass, and only a small proportion of what comes up in the grass goes through the cow and comes out in milk. Speaking in very general terms, it is only about one-sixth. Only a small proportion of what goes into the human body with the milk goes into the bone, and that is what matters.
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I will take a case which, at least at the beginning, is very well known to the hon. Gentleman. In Cwm Ystwyth, strontium units of radiation—I will come to that unit of measurement in a moment —of between 120 and 180 have been stated to occur. But the maximum coming out in the milk of the cow is about 30. The equilibrium level for the build-up of that in the bone would be between five and six. It is, therefore, very important that the public should have clearly in mind that measurements of what is, so to speak, lying about, though I do not say they are irrelevant, do grossly exaggerate the risk.
Next, we should be clear that measurements of strontium units can lead to a great deal of confusion. Even the Medical Officer of Health for the Borough of Caernarvon is reported to have stated that he was under the impression, although he may have been wrongly reported, that the radioactive danger in drinking water, for instance, could be measured in terms of these so-called strontium units. Of course, they are quite inappropriate for that purpose.
I can illustrate the absurdity of using them, which might cause alarm, in this way. They are related to measuring the relation of radioactive strontium to calcium which the body takes in, because that is how they start building up in our bones. If we were to put all the drinking water in this part of Wales through a perfect softener, so that there was no calcium whatever in the water, measured in strontium units it would be infinite, but we would not have increased the radioactive strontium that the body was taking in. There would be no difference whatever in the danger to health in drinking it. I assure the hon. Member that, in fact, the best evidence we have is that he could go on drinking this water for ever without its having the slightest effect on his health.
The next thing which I should like to make quite clear is the truth about the increase in the amount of radioactive strontium which is coming down on us from the stratosphere. It is true that it is increasing. It is not true that the rate of fall is, by and large, increasing. The best advice we can get is that if it went on falling at its present rate for several generations the equilibrium level at which it would build up in the bones

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of the population would still be well within what I might call the "amber" band. That is not when it becomes definitely dangerous, but the period when, as the Medical Research Council said, definite action would be called for. The best analogy would be the amber light and not the red light.
If the present rate of increase went on for two or three generations, it would still correspond to an equilibrium level in the bones of the general population which, while not necessarily being desirable, would be well within only the warning limit and not rise to a level of serious danger. Of course, without going into the politics of tests, and so on, it would be a very depressing prospect if we were to go on doing tests of this kind for the next sixty or one hundred years.
I ought to say a word, in passing, on the question of leukaemia. I am advised that this rare disease is a cancer of the blood; it sounds peculiarly unpleasant, but it is a very rare disease. It is true that it is increasing, but, to show the difficulty of the problem, the increase began a generation before the first tests. It had been increasing for about thirty years before strontium 90 began descending upon us. Not only that, but the rate of increase did not show any particular jump when this outfall of strontium from the stratosphere began. That is a curious thing, but there are many curious things in biology.
The second thing that we should bear in mind and which can give us some reassurance is that in a rare thing of this sort, one must be very careful with statistics. It is possible to get absurd figures of percentage increases when dealing with ratios of about one in 1 million. I am, however, advised that there are at present no statistically significant differences, either by area or in time, in the incidence of this disease.
So much for the general picture of the hazards from fall-out. Admittedly, it is increasing, but it is far below any danger level, and all the indications are that it is likely to remain so. There is no need for alarm.
Mr. J. Idwal Jones: May I ask whether it has been established that there is no connection between the incidence of leukaemia in North-West
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Wales, and the fall of strontium 90 in that area?
Sir I. Horobin: There is no statistical difference between North Wales and other parts of the United Kingdom. It is like trying to find out the number of people who die through being kicked by a horse; there is no statistical significance. I am advised that it is within the margin of error. There is an increase of leukaemia, but that has been going on for a long time and it is no indication of any need for alarm.
Against this background, we have to think of the area where, because of extra rainfall, for example, more of this radio-strontium descends on to the ground and two, or certainly one, nuclear power station is to be built. In normal operation —and I am speaking with extreme brevity —I am able to assure the hon. Gentleman that there are certain radioactive substances which may go up the stack, but they are of such short life that they can be ignored. Seepage has been referred to, and I think that that, too, can be ignored.
There may be circumstances in which portions of coolants might be released, but the monitoring is done with such extreme care and there are definite arrangements which in due course will, no doubt, be turned into legislative arrangements to ensure that radioactive effluent is most carefuly controlled. The short answer is that in normal operation there are few branches of British industry that take such intense care to see what is going on; few branches where there is such care to see that what is going on is properly controlled.
The second matter with which we are concerned is the possibility of accidents, and here there is a different position from that concerned with the ordinary fallout of strontium. Nobody suggests that there will be a series of accidents in any one of these plants, so we have to think of what the maximum temporary emission of radioactive substances is. It is here that it is important to remember why the Windscale accident is irrelevant to this matter. It must be pointed out that no damage to health was done to anybody by the Windscale mishap. It was unnecessary, we believe, to have dumped all that milk, but we were being extra careful.

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The Windscale accident took place as a result of the release of Wigner energy, but that type of release will not be necessary in the new stations. The second reason is that the coolant was air. Uranium burns in air, although it does not burn at anything like the same temperature in carbon-dioxide, which is the coolant in power stations. The coolant at Windscale was also an open system and the air went up the stack. Anything radioactive went up with it, but at Trawsfynydd and other stations, there is to be a closed system, and the carbon-dioxide does not go outside the system. It is in a very carefully tested circuit,
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so that there would have to be extraordinary circumstances for large quantities to leave the system.
I can reassure the hon. Member. I hope to have the opportunity of saying more on this subject at a later stage, but he will be doing a good service to his constituents if he assures them that Britain is in the forefront not only in constructional ingenuity, but in safety devices in this field.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes to One o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers

THE LORD BISHOP OF BIRMINGHAM
John Leonard, Lord Bishop of Birmingham—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

TRANSFORMING RAILWAYS INTO ROADS
2.40 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the closing down of many branch lines all over the country, consideration has been, or can be, given to the transforming of such lines into roads where suitable.]
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, when a railway line near a proposed new road is to be closed permanently, the possibility of using it in the construction of the road is considered by the highway authority concerned, who must be satisfied that this is justified on both engineering and economic grounds. An example of such a conversion is the current Heads of the Valleys road-improvement scheme in South Wales, which uses part of the Abergavenny-Merthyr line.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl very much for his answer, may I ask him whether the initiative in such a case comes from the local authority or from the Ministry of Transport?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, when it is proposed to close a railway line, the Transport Commission inform the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation, who notify the local authority concerned, in case the information will be of any value.
EARL HOWE: Does the initiative come from the local authority or from the Ministry of Transport when there is a possibility of making use of it as a road?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, local authorities are responsible for providing roads. They inform the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation of any roads which they propose to build in a certain area, and at the same time the Ministry of Transport inform them of any railways anywhere near that area which are to be, so to speak, derequisitioned.

RIGHTS OF WOMEN HEREDITARY PEERS
THE MARQUESS OF READING THE MARQUESS OF READING rose to move to resolve, That in the opinion of this House steps should now be taken to obtain leave to introduce legislation to confer upon such women Peers as, under existing conditions, are not qualified to take their seats in this House the same rights, duties and privileges as are enjoyed by hereditary Peers having seat, place and voice in this House. The noble Marquess said: My Lords, the language of the Resolution standing in my name is, as your Lordships may have remarked, somewhat unusual, but you will appreciate that the reason is that the subject matter of the Resolution is one which closely involves the Royal Prerogative, and that no effect could be given to it without the Sovereign's consent. I make no pretensions to novelty for this subject; indeed the language of the Resolution to-day follows very closely the material parts of a similar Resolution moved by me in your Lordships' House in 1949 and adopted in a perhaps not very densely populated Chamber by a majority of 45 to 27. Although on balance the opinion of the House was then favourable, the opinion of the Government was not and no action ensued.
In the interval the whole situation has surely been transformed by the passing into law last year of the Life Peerages Act and the entry into this House of women Life Peers, and if the House was, by a majority, prepared nearly nine years ago to support the principle which I am advocating to-day, how incomparably stronger under present conditions is the claim of the Peeresses in their own right for admittance to this House! I do not at

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this stage know what will be the views of the Government or of the House, but I think I am entitled to assume that on a matter of this kind affecting the composition of your Lordships' House it will be left to a free vote of the Members of this House and that the Government Whips will not be called upon to exercise their arduous functions this afternoon.
I have tried to analyse the motives which impelled the minority of the House into the "Not-Content" Lobby on the previous occasion and I am led to the conclusion that those 27 noble but errant Lords fell into two sharply incongruous groups, the one consisting of those who upheld the hereditary principle but objected to the admittance of women, the other which upheld the admittance of women but was opposed to the hereditary principle. That was, I think, the then situation. But surely to-day the argument as to whether women should or should not be admissible is both out of date and beside the point, for the principle of their eligibility has been recognised, and, indeed, instigated, by the Government in the Life Peerages Act and has happily already been put into operation. I cannot believe that even those of your Lordships who were most vehemently hostile to the arrival of women in this House have found, once you had survived the first shock, that the presence of these ladies has had any notably shattering effect upon your quiet enjoyment of the normal amenities of the House.
My sole purpose to-day is to endeavour to enlist the support of your Lordships in persuading the Government to set in train the necessary action to remove a disability from a small group of Peeresses in their own right, some twenty in number. I do not anticipate that even if admittance were extended to them the House would on every day be adorned by the presence of twenty extra ladies. Indeed, if the proportion of your Lordships' attendance were maintained it would be something in the nature not of 20 but of 2½, and even the half might be eliminated by the fact that a number of the ladies with whom I am concerned are the holders of Scottish Peerages and would presumably not be eligible for a seat in your Lordships' House except on the same terms—that is, as Representative Scottish Peers—as
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their male colleagues. Contrary to the view expressed by some newspapers when I first put this Motion down last autumn, I am not seeking to fling open the doors of this Chamber to the wives and mothers of all your Lordships, but merely to promote the removal of a disability which at present rests upon a small group of holders of hereditary Peerages for no more compelling reason than that they happen to be women.
No doubt legislation would be necessary, although I think it is proper to say that many people consider that before the Committee for Privileges in Lady Rhondda's case pronounced, with somewhat laboured ingenuity, the contrary view, the terms of the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act, 1919, were sufficiently comprehensive to bring these ladies within its ambit. Admittedly, the drafting of a Bill of this kind might be a difficult task, but, as the late noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, said as Lord Chancellor on two separate occasions in this context, the Parliamentary draftsmen are competent and resourceful people, and my own considerable experience of their activities and abilities goes far to endorse that judgment. If the House desired that a Bill for this purpose should be drafted, it could, in Lord Jowitt's view, be done, and I should be surprised if the noble and learned Viscount who now sits upon the Woolsack were disposed to dispute his predecessor's pronouncement in that regard.
The question, therefore, for your Lordship is whether you desire that the necessary steps should be taken to initiate this legislation, always assuming that the Government, if they are opposed to my Motion, would at least be disposed to pay some attention to the will of the House. On the previous occasion the argument was strongly urged upon me that a change of this kind ought not to take place in isolation but only as part of a general scheme of reform of your Lordships' House such as was at that time, as the result of the three-Party Conference of 1947, still in somewhat sceptical contemplation. That argument, again, surely has no application to-day, though at that time I was forced to concede that it had force. But to-day, so far as I know, unless the noble and learned Viscount the Lord President is going to spring some startling surprise

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in the course of his reply, the Government have no plans for the enlargement of the somewhat limited provisions included in the Life Peerages Act of last year.
For my own part, I regret that the Government did not take advantage of the occasion offered by that Act to bring these ladies into the House, though at the same time I can understand that they were reluctant to face the additional complication and delay in the passage of that measure, dealing, as it did, with Life Peerages, which might have sprung from the injection into it of a topic concerning hereditary Peers—perhaps all the more so because the opponents and adherents of the hereditary system had already spent four days in vigorous disputation on the subject on the Second Reading of the Bill.
I am aware that the argument which weighs with quite a number of noble Lords is that this is an extension of the hereditary principle and that such an extension is not at this stage desirable. I have always believed that that is an entirely fallacious argument, for the whole point is that these ladies are already hereditary Peers. It is true that, anyhow for many hundreds of years, no Writ of Summons has ever been issued to a woman, but if steps were now taken to provide for the issue of such a Writ, it would not, in my submission, be an extension of the hereditary principle but would be simply a more just and a slightly more generous application of it.
If any of your Lordships does not accept that argument, then I would say, "Let us have some sense of proportion in this matter." Rightly or wrongly, today this House is almost exclusively based upon the hereditary system, and so long as that situation obtains surely the exclusion of women holders of hereditary titles is a blatant anomaly. There may come a time when there will be in office a Government who have the power and the will to dilute or to eliminate the hereditary system. If that time comes, the fact that we have remedied a long-standing injustice by admitting into this House some twenty women Peers, in addition to the 850 male Peers of which the House is already composed, will not make the task of that Government in any slightest degree more difficult. That surely is the
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position. An injustice does not become less of an injustice because it has gone on for a long time or because it affects only a limited number of people.
On this point of the extension of the hereditary principle, I think it is worth while referring back to a debate which took place in your Lordships' House in 1946 on a widely-framed Motion standing in the name of the late noble and learned Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood. In addition, there was on the Order Paper a Motion standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Mansfield on exactly the aspect of the matter with which I am dealing to-day. That debate proved, in the end, inconclusive, and my noble friend did not in fact move his Motion. But the then Leader of the House, the late noble Viscount, Lord Addison, in dealing with this point with which I am concerned now, in anticipation that Lord Mansfield's Motion would be moved, said something which I should like to commend to the House, and perhaps particularly to the noble Viscount who to-day leads the Opposition. In dealing with this particular aspect, the admission of Peeresses in their own right, the late noble Viscount said this [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 139, COI. 1031]:
"On this particular matter, which we regard as a question merely of sex disqualification, our view is that we should leave it to your Lordships to decide. It is not a question of the constitution of the House of Peers; it is a question of whether a woman should have this remaining disqualification attached to her because she is a woman. Frankly, my view is that she ought not. I am only speaking now for myself. I am only saying that, so far as the Government is concerned, if your Lordships desire to adopt the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield's Resolution to remove sex disqualification in this particular case, we suggest that it should be left freely to the vote of the House, and if the House says it wants the change made, the Government is prepared to take it into consideration, given facilities for the necessary procedures."
In that statement by the then Leader of the House there is not a reference of any kind to this baleful project to extend the hereditary system to women.
Then on the next page of Volume 139 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, not for the first or for the last time in your Lordships' House, the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, not known as a fervent devotee of the hereditary principle, once more expressed in a few words the pith of the problem.
In the course of his speech he used these words [col. 1036]:
"For my own part I should draw a distinction, as the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, has indeed done, with regard to that Resolution which relates to the Peeresses in their own right. There the change that would be made in the composition of the House is so small that it would make no appreciable political difference, and the inequality is so obvious that plainly this is an injustice that ought to be remedied."
I commend to the House those two expressions of opinion, one by the then Leader of the Socialist Party, the other by the then Leader of the Liberal Party; and I trust that the present Acting Leader in this House of the Conservative Party will not show himself less progressive than those two other noble Lords.
I have heard the argument advanced that the right way to deal with this problem is for the Prime Minister to recommend to Her Majesty that Life Peerages should be conferred upon those women holders of hereditary Peerages whose public service entitles them to receive such a distinction. Incidentally, the case of ore noble Lady who is in the dual position of being a Peeress in her own right and a Life Peeress (and who I know is prevented only by unfortunate indisposition from being present this afternoon) is, I would submit, not in any way a precedent but a case purely by itself, and does not help or hinder the argument on the general proposition one way or the other But if that contention were advanced this afternoon my reply would be that I would accept it when, but only when, a similar test is imposed upon male Peers succeeding to hereditary titles before they are allowed to take their seats in this House. Until that happens I can see no merit in substituting one obnoxious discrimination for another.
That, my Lords, is my case. I trust that the majority of your Lordships will approve it and that you will, if necessary, record your votes in favour of the removal of an obsolete, anomalous and unjust discrimination, out of step with the march of events in the world today. I beg lo move.
Moved to resolve, That in the opinion of this House steps should now be taken to obtain leave to introduce legislation to confer upon such women Peers as, under existing conditions, are not quail-
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fled to take their seats in this House the same rights, duties and privileges as are enjoyed by hereditary Peers having seat, place and voice in this House.—(The Marquess of Reading.)
3.4 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am sure we shall all agree that the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, has addressed your Lordships' House to-day with a consideration and a brilliance of language and fact that makes us welcome him back to what I will call the speaking arena, which he occupied so happily when a Minister, especially as we find him giving us the advantage of the full qualities of his advocacy, for which we on this side admire him, much more so than when he had to state a tied case for Her Majesty's Government, for the Foreign Office.
It is obvious to anyone who listened to the noble Marquess to-day that he has studied this question very carefully and that he has a good deal of common sense upon his side of the argument and is able to make devastating quotations from past utterances on the whole subject. But I think that what we have to deal with to-day is the present situation of your Lordships' House and the question of whether, in all the political and national circumstances, it is wise to accede to the request in his Motion. What are the facts from that point of view?
First of all, I must concede that probably in all Parties in the Slate there are Members of Parliament, in both Houses, who would very much like to see what they consider to be an immediate act of justice done to certain individual Peeresses in their own right. But one has to consider, in relation to that, what has become the Parliamentary position as a result of events since 1946 and since the debate of nine years ago. Recently there has been no obstacle put in the way of the noble Marquess and his friends such as there was nine years ago, because of the lack of any comprehensive scheme of House of Lords reform; but we certainly have a changed circumstance which the noble Marquess seeks to draw into support of his argument this afternoon—that is, the Life Peerages Act, and the fact that under that Act there have been elected to this House, under Royal Prerogative, some Peeresses.
The Marquess of READING: Elected?
Viscount ALEXANDER of HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I should have said welcomed, not elected. I hasten to try to correct that. When I thought of "elected" I said that it must be under the Royal Prerogative. I hope that I have put that matter right. At any rate, do not let my trend be disturbed by that quite merited interruption.
I feel that the general argument of the noble Marquess, powerfully put as it was, falls a good deal because of the appointment of Life Peeresses and the fact that it is open to any Government of the day to recommend the Crown to appoint as Life Peeresses any of those who are under the present disability of which he complains. The noble Marquess has quoted the case (perhaps I may mention the name, for I am sure he does not mind) of the noble Baroness, Lady Ravensdale of Kedleston, as being a Peeress in her own right; and the fact that the noble Lady has been chosen for recommendation, and that her recommendation has been approved by the Crown for appointment as a Life Peeress, shows that there is now nothing of real disability in the way of the admission to this House of a Peeress or of any other woman who may be recommended to the Crown on those grounds.
I suggest, therefore, that it is not logical, certainly from my point of view, to suggest that a grave injustice remains. I listened with great interest to the quotation which the noble Marquess made from a speech made in 1946 by my late noble friend—a very dear person in the memory of this House—Lord Addison. I had not looked it up. I have recollections of 1946 when I was in another place, however, and whilst, of course, the Resolution of the House that was then being talked about in this House may have been the subject of the consideration of the Government later, there certainly was not, in; my memory, any actual consideration given to adopting that process; nor can I say with honesty that the majority of my colleagues in 1946 would have been in favour of extending thereby the hereditary principle.
The Party to which I have the honour to belong, and for which I speak in this House, are certainly quite fixed about that. We are against any process of extending the hereditary principle. I state
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I that, notwithstanding the opinion of my noble friend Lord Pethick-Lawrence, who I am sure will give his views later on in the debate. He is, of course, free to do so—anyone can state his views in this House. His work in general for the equality of women with men in all respects, so far as possible, in the State no one can deny, and all of us, on this side of the House, at any rate, pay eternal tribute to it. We know that he really suffered at the hands of the law and Parliament for doing his best to get certain measures adopted. I am bound to say, however, that when it comes to arguing whether or not we are in favour of extending the hereditary principle then I must state, whatever may be the feeling of the noble Marquess in the matter, that we should regard the extension of the hereditary principle in this matter as a fundamental one and we should have to oppose it if this Motion went to a Division. There would be no inquests if any member of my Party with strong views went the other way, but the official view of the Labour Party on this matter is as I have just stated it to be.
The noble Marquess referred in his speech to the debates which took place here and in another place on the Life Peerages Bill; and he explained the circumstances which led, to his regret, to the fact that the admission of Life Peeresses on the hereditary side was not covered in that Bill. I should think that there must have been some people in the Conservative Party who would have been rather glad to include that provision in the Bill; but I have little doubt in my own mind that the reason why it was not included was that if it had been so included, instead of dealing with quite a decent Amendment for the benefit of this House for getting in people of ability at once, we should have had a fierce attack on the Bill in both Houses and a division which would have gone right through the country on this question—I repeat, right through the country. Therefore, it was omitted. I do not know what were the inner counsels of Her Majesty's Government, but I should say that that is as near as I could describe the possible facts of the situation. I should like to make it clear, therefore, that if Her Majesty's Government were to weaken on this point to-day they would be lending themselves perhaps to raising

621
just that kind of strong Parliamentary Party aid national division on this question which we have all sought to avoid.
3.13 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I rise to say a word, a very brief word but a most sincere word, in favour of the Motion that has been moved by the noble Marquess, Lord Reading. I understand that it has been suggested in some quarters—it is possibly a view that may be expressed by the Lord President in his reply—that it is rather early days to raise this topic after the so recent passage of the Bill legalising Life Peerages. But, my Lords, I do not think that that is so. After all, that is quite a different topic. Indeed, we were not even allowed to discuss it during the passage of the Life Peerages Bill. We were told quite firmly that that measure was concerned with Life Peerages and not with hereditary Peerages; and therefore I think there can be no valid objection to our raising it now.
Alternatively, those who oppose the raising of the question to-day suggest that those who favour putting forward a plea for hereditary Peeresses in their own right henceforward to sit in this House are advocating something new and revolutionary. That, I think, was rather the view which was expressed just now by the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough. But I am afraid that I disagree with his view in too, and I thought, as I listened to him, that he had a certain amount of difficulty in maintaining it himself, for in fact the very opposite is the case.
What, my Lords, is the position regarding the attendance of male Peers who are the holders of hereditary Peerages? It was laid down authoritatively only a few years ago, in the Report of the Swinton Committee on the attendance of Members of this House. Noble Lords will find it, if they wish to look up the reference, in paragraph 12 of that Report. It says:
"Without going too deeply into Peerage Law, the Committee think it right to state that there is no question that a Peer has a right to receive his Writ."
The Report goes on to quote a case in the seventeenth century where the Crown tried to discourage certain Peers from attending and failed; and the paragraph concludes with these words:
"…from that time it has been an acknowledged article of Peerage Law and of the privi-
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lege of the House that the Writ cannot be withheld from a Peer."
That, my Lords, I believe to be crystal clear. It is an absolutely unequivocal statement. Why, then, has the Writ been withheld in the past from hereditary Peeresses? There is no doubt of the validity of their title: they hold their Peerages by just as much an unquestioned right as male Peers do. So that cannot be the reason. They have been debarred, as I understand it, purely and simply because of a sex disqualification: women could not receive Writs of Summons to this House. That was the constitutional position and it was universally accepted. But now the Government themselves, as the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, pointed out, by the passage of the Life Peerages Act, have altered that constitutional position. They have said that women may sit in your Lordships' House. On what grounds, then, are we still to continue the disqualification of hereditary Peeresses in their own right who, but for their sex, would always have received the Writ? Why should we still penalise them alone?
My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor gave an explanation in a debate in this House on October 31, 1957. He said that it "would increase pro tanto the powers conferred by heredity." My Lords, I thought at the time, if he will forgive my saying so, that that was a rather thin argument. If the Government had been preparing to restrict the numbers of hereditary Peers sitting in this House, as some of us very much wanted to do, there would have been some validity in his argument. But whatever the views of the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, may be, that was certainly not the position of the Government. On the contrary, even since the passage of the Life Peerages Act they have recommended to Her Majesty's Government the creation of two entirely new hereditary Peerages: one to Sir William Rootes; one to Sir James Turner. I do not want in any way to criticise the conferment of Peerages on these two gentlemen: I am sure that they are most admirable choices. But what inevitably the fact of their creation does, to use the Lord Chancellor's own words, is to "increase pro tanto the powers conferred by heredity." Does it not drive a cart and horses through the whole case

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which the noble and learned Viscount made on October 31, 1957? Of course it does. And yet that is the only case the Government have.
The truth is, my Lords, that in 1957 the Government came, as even Governments sometimes do, to a wrong decision—a decision actuated, no doubt, by thoroughly respectable motives, but a decision impossible to defend on any grounds of logic or good sense, and they now feel obliged to stick to that decision. I plead with them, if I may, to reconsider it. We are, I repeat, asking for no revolutionary change. If there has been any revolutionary change, the Government themselves have made it by introducing legislation to make it possible for women to sit in this House. All we ask now is for a regularisation of the position and the removal of a patent anomaly and injustice. If the Government were to grant that, they would not be showing weakness. They would, on the contrary, I am sure, be doing the right thing, and would enhance their reputation in this House and, I believe, throughout the country. I do beg of them, most sincerely, to swallow their pride and to take that course.
3.21 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I want, very briefly indeed, to give what support I can to the noble Marquess who has put down this Motion. There is not a great deal that I can add to what has been already said by both the noble Marquess who moved it and by the noble Marquess who has just spoken. I should have thought that if there were any Members present in your Lordships' House to-day who were among the twenty-seven in 1949, they would be converted by what has been said to-day.
Personally, I am not extremely attached to the hereditary principle, but it is the principle under which this House is run at the present time. What I am extremely attached to is the principle of equality of opportunity, equality of work, and equality of pay, for members of the two sexes. So far as I can see, that is the only difference that this Motion, if it is accepted, will make. It will make that equality rather more than it was before. We are, I think (although here I speak subject to correction), one of the few Legislative Chambers which, until the
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other day, certainly, allowed no women to come in; we are now pleased and proud to have our Life Peeresses, and I see no reason at all why they should not be joined by their colleagues.
What is rather foolish about the present situation is this: that if one of these hereditary Peeresses has a son (I am not sure if this applies to them all, but certainly it applies to a number), that son, when his mother dies, will be able to take his place in your Lordships' House, along with the other hereditary Peers. Therefore, I see here no extension of the hereditary principle at all, but merely a putting right of a long-standing injustice—for that is what it seems for these unfortunate women who lie in the shadow of their title, with no substance behind it. They take the name but none of the responsibilities, and I cannot see that that is a very proper or justifiable thing to occur at the present time. I should very much like to give my support to the noble Marquess, and I shall certainly follow him into the Division Lobby if he carries his Motion to a Division.
3.24 p.m.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: My Lords, by the courtesy of my noble friends sitting behind me I am permitted to speak from this Box, but I am hound to say that it is on the understanding that I made it perfectly clear that I am speaking only for myself and not for my Party. When I have finished my speech, your Lordships will see that there is no need for that statement, because I am going to disagree fundamentally with the noble Viscount whose orders I generally carry out most faithfully and to the letter.
I cannot help feeling that a logical case for the change which the noble Marquess proposes has been fully and completely made out. The fact, surely, is this: that in spite of the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act, which professed to remove all disqualifications against women, the noble Earl, Lord Birkenhead—who, during his earlier incarnation as F. E. Smith, had vigorously opposed the enfranchisement of women, and had been defeated on that—succeeded in keeping them out of this House by what I believe most Members of the House to-day regard as an incorrect decision of the Committee for Privileges. He held that, in spite of the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act, there

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was something peculiar about this particular House, the House of Lords, which made the Act not operative in its case. Whatever substance there was in that contention, it has been flatly contradicted by the recent decision to admit women to Life Peerages and to a seat in this House. Therefore, to maintain that that decision reached by the Committee for Privileges all those years ago is still valid seems to me quite contrary not only to justice, not only to logic, but also to common sense; and if this House adheres to that view it seems to me that it will be taking up a position that is not only wrong but absurd and foolish.
During my life I have been connected with a great number of desired reforms, and I have seen that the correct way of preventing a reform from coming about is, first, to ignore it—and that is successful tip to a point—and then, when that method of attack ceases, to apply ridicule. That continues for a time, but at last justice—and, above all, common sense—prevails, and the reform is carried into effect. I have seen that particularly in the case of the advancement of the status of women. Now, if women were regarded in this country to-day as they were fifty or sixty (and, still more, seventy or eighty) years ago, as second-class citizens, then it would, of course, be a natural thing that they should be denied the vote, that they should be denied, as they were seventy or eighty years ago, the control of their own property, and that they should have all sorts of other disqualifications, including unequal pay. But to-day, when most of those disqualifications have been removed, it is just foolish to try to fight a rearguard action against the complete equality of one sex with the other.
En connection with that, I should like to tell the House this true story of what Mr. Asquith once said to a person in private conversation. He was asked by a friend: "Why do you continue to oppose the introduction of women to the Parliamentary vote? Don't you think it just? Don't you think they are sure to gel it?" He replied: "Yes, I agree that it is just, and I feel certain they will get it; but, please God, not in my time". That, I think, is the position of a great many people who are fighting a rearguard action in this matter of the admission into this House of those women who are Peeresses in their own right.
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I should like to say a few words more, especially to my noble friends sitting on these benches. I do not believe that there is any substance in the view that this Motion, if carried, and if put into effect, is an enlargement of the hereditary principle. I want to put this case. Suppose that there was a man who was a lost heir to an existing hereditary Peerage, and suppose that he came to the court claiming that his title as heir to the Peerage was valid. Would anybody venture to suggest for a single moment that if the court decided in his favour, and declared that he was the veritable heir and was entitled to have a seat in this House, that would be an extension of the hereditary principle of the Peerage? It would merely be giving justice to an individual who had a perfect right, if he could establish his hereditary claim, to get the position which he claimed. That is what it is proposed to do with regard to this score or so of women who, through a wrong decision in the past, have been kept out of a right which had been theirs ever since the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act was carried into law.
For this reason, my Lords, I am entirely unable to see the force of the view that, if this Motion is carried, we shall be condoning an extension of the hereditary principle. I do not see it to be anything of the kind whatever. There may be certain noble Lords who take that view. I am afraid that I cannot see it now. It seems, therefore, that the logical case for carrying this Motion has been fully made out. I see no logical argument against it, though I know as well as other Members of your Lordships' House that the British are not a logical people, and that few of us, in the last resort, are motivated by entirely logical considerations. But there are two things which are characteristic of the British people, and I suggest that the denial of this Motion is a flat contradiction of both of them.
The first is the principle of justice. I believe that this continued exclusion of women, one by one, from the position to which they are entitled by right is a denial of justice, and E do not believe that the British people will stand indefinitely for the continuation of that injustice. And if there is one thing more which I believe to be an attribute of the British people, it is common sense. And

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to my thinking the opposition to this proposal lacks common sense, because it is clear that, having admitted that women can be Members of this House, that women hold their titles perfectly correctly under the existing law, and having agreed that there is a Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act which abolishes discriminations against a person on the ground of sex, to continue this old-fashioned, out-of-date principle is unworthy of the common sense of the British people.
I think that those who continue to oppose the principle contained in this Motion are in the position of a certain lady who used to be known as Mrs. Partington, who tried to keep out the incoming tide with the help of a mop. They may push back a certain number of the waves; they may delay for a time a small heap of sand being covered by the tide; but in the long run they and their mop will be overwhelmed by the oncoming tide. I hope that your Lordships, and particularly my noble friend who leads my Party, and those behind me, will forgive me if I say that opposition to this Motion is just silly. It seems to me that it is trying to go back to a position that has already been abandoned and lost. If this Motion is lost to-day, and if this reform is not brought into early effect, I feel certain, from my experience of the years in which reforms that have been persistently opposed have been carried into effect long after common sense demanded that they should be made, that in the early foreseeable future this reform will come about and those who have opposed it will be remembered for the action they took in the vain attempt to delay a reform that was logical, common sense and just.
3.35 p.m.
LORD EBURY: My Lords, I have not taken part in recent debates on the composition of your Lordships' House and perhaps I should apologise for coming in at this late stage. I am a little intimidated for the moment, having just listened to the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, and I am certain that he is going to consider me silly, if not reactionary. I would say that on the face of it there is a very strong case for the admission of Peeresses. I am not going to enter into a re-discussion of the merits of the hereditary system, although I may
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perhaps quote Bagehot on the English Constitution:
"The order of Nobility is of great use, too, in what it prevents. It prevents the rule of wealth, the religion of gold."
It is interesting to note that family continuity in this House is sometimes overrated: of 524 Barons in 1951 only 65 were creations prior to 1800.
It appears that once the principle has been conceded that women should sit in this House, it is analogous that Peeresses in their own right should be entitled to sit and vote. Indeed it is difficult to see why this has been delayed so long in view of the fact that the Ruling House has admitted the female line since 1553. It must be remembered that the hereditary rights of your Lordships are very closely connected with the hereditary Monarchy, and I have heard few objections to the latter principle. So if the value of the hereditary principle be conceded—and remember that those who contest it are striking very closely at the fountain head of our State—there seems to be no earthly reason why the Motion should not be agreed to.
However, there are very cogent reasons why it should not be agreed to. The doctrine of the Divine Right of Kings was discarded many centuries ago; and just as our Monarchy has become a constitutional one, so our hereditary aristocracy has become, though more recently and for different reasons, constitutional, too: that is to say, apart from the natural respect and reverence in which we hold our Monarchy, both have useful constitutional functions. I believe that the operative word here is "useful". In other words, your Lordships' House is now judged by the public for its usefulness in the constitutional complex rather than being admitted as of right to the exercise of its functions.
The recent changes in our membership were aimed at furthering this usefulness and have, I think, though it appears that some noble Lords do not agree with me, achieved that purpose. It is now incumbent upon us, I suggest, to assess whether the implications of the Motion of the noble Marquess strengthen the useful exercise of this House. I think, with respect, that this is rather a doubtful proposition. The hereditary element is well represented, some would perhaps say over-represented, in your Lordships'

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House. The noble Marquess, Lord Reading, and the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, have said that an extension of the hereditary principle is not involved here. It is. I still think that it is an extension of the hereditary principle and that most people would regard it as such. After all, it is the electorate which chooses the Government, and the hereditary principle is only on sufferance in so far as it is useful at the moment. This may not be a majority view in your Lordships' House, but it is very well documented.
Another view is, with the greatest respect, that the average age of Members of your Lordships' House is on the high side. I believe that the average age of Peeresses in their own right of England and the United Kingdom who have attained their majority is well over seventy—seventy-three, as a matter of fact—and to admit them would not solve the problem of bringing some younger blood into the House. May I also point out, with the greatest respect, that of the official number of those who are allowed to come to this House, something under 6 per cent. are between the ages of twenty-one and thirty-five. I would submit that a revising Chamber does not necessarily have to be exclusively composed of members of very long experience, though this is obviously of great value. What I suggest this House has needed and needs is the infusion of new blood, which was so well achieved by the Life Peerages Act. This and Leave of Absence were, I think, wise steps on the part of the Government. The inclusion of Peeresses in their own right would not be a progressive step and would not sufficiently strengthen the House to make it warrantable. Though I agree that, on paper, the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, has a strong case, I think the Government would be wise to resist this Motion on the grounds that I have mentioned.
3.41 p.m.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I had not intended to say a word to-day, but there are two questions which I should like to put to my noble friend Lord Hailsham and which I hope he may be able to answer. The first is this. Is it not a fact that a hereditary Peeress has no vote.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): The
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answer to that question is that it is not a fact; she has a vote.
LORD TEVIOT: The second question is this—and the first having been wrong, I hope that this may be right. Suppose that we have a young lady who succeeds to be a hereditary Peeress and who may take a great interest in politics and wish to play her part in the legislation of the country. Is it not a fact that, because she is a hereditary Peeress, she is unable to stand for Parliament?
3.42 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, perhaps while they are fresh in my mind I may first deal with the two questions that my noble friend Lord Teviot has just raised. I can confidently advise the House that it is not a fact that a Peeress in her own right has no vote: she has a vote. It is, however, the better opinion that she is not able to sit in the House of Commons, and therefore I would say that she has a grievance under the present state of the law.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: She has a vote by a special section of the Act.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I think that special section relates to the vote but not to the right to sit in the House of Commons. She has a vote, but according to the better view she has not the right to sit in the House of Commons. The right to vote is certain, I think, but the latter position is something about which there could be argument. I have, however, given to the House what I believe to be the true view. Therefore I would say that I think these ladies, in common with those who are not always as keen to join your Lordships as perhaps they ought to be, have some grounds for feeling that they are ill-used when they are not allowed to sit in the House of Commons.
We have had an interesting, amusing and, I think, good-tempered debate this afternoon. One thing that has emerged from our discussion is the extraordinary variety of opinion which is held about this matter. The noble Marquess who introduced this Motion with such skill thought that the whole situation had been (and here I quote) "transformed by the passage of the Life Peerages Act". His argument was that if you admit women to membership of your Lordships' House, the principle is admitted, and as

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a simple act of justice we must admit Peeresses in their own right. The noble Viscount who leads the Opposition took exactly the opposite view. He takes the view that the whole basis of the argument of the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, had been destroyed by the passage of the Life Peerages Act. His argument is that if a Peeress in her own right will assist your Lordships' deliberations, she can be made a Life Peeress. Here we have a complete divergence of view at the outset of our discussion.
The noble Marquess Lord Salisbury, who addressed the House, as he always does, with great authority, took the view that what was inhibiting the Government at the present time was a somewhat ignoble pride, which he begged us to swallow. On the other hand, the noble Viscount who leads the Opposition warned us (and here I quote as correctly as I can remember) of "a savage controversy" which apparently was going to split the country from top to bottom if we yielded to the blandishments of the noble Marquess, Lord Reading. Here again a complete divergence.
The noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, led us to believe that what we were invited to do was a reactionary act designed to restore or extend an old, obsolescent and thoroughly disreputable principle by admitting into the House the representatives and female heirs of some of the oldest baronies in the country. On the other hand, his noble friend Lord Pethick-Lawrence and the spokesman from the Liberal benches, the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, took the view that, so far from being reactionary, this was in the van of progress, and if we refused to do what the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, asked us to do we were, like Mrs. Partington, trying to stop the vanguard of sex equality from invading these red Benches. The noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, and others took an almost emotional view about the injustice involved. But my noble friend Lord Ebury, who, if he will allow me to say so, I thought made a very sensible speech, thought that this was a practical problem and the real question to which one ought to address oneself was whether much good would come out of the proposal if put into practice.
Between all these different views it is not absolutely necessary for me to
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attempt to arbitrate, and I think it would be beyond my capacity to do so. There are, however, one or two points which I feel it is my duty to lay before the House. The noble Marquess, Lord Reading, asked us to leave this to a completely free vote—whatever in this House those magic words may mean; a difficult metaphysical proposition which I am unable wholly to elucidate.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, may I help the noble Viscount? What I mean by "a free vote" is that the Government Whips should not be put on as such, as Tellers.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Even so, the metaphysical implications of this in your Lordships' House escape me, to some extent, after eight years' experience of the freedom with which your Lordships vote when the Government Whips are on. Whatever exactly the theoretical demarcation line may be, it is, I think, more difficult to understand than the noble Marquess supposes. However, I remember that I was greeted with just the same answer when we were discussing an earlier measure and the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, was leading the House, when I asked for a free vote. So I do not think the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, can complain, and he should ask his noble friend Lord Salisbury who sits beside him what exactly is meant by "a free vote," because I remember that he would not tell me.
The essence of this Motion is not an abstract adherence to the principle that Peeresses in their own right should be admitted to the House of Lords; it is a demand on the Government—and indeed, the whole burden of the noble Marquess's song was that the Government should take action. I must tell him frankly that if by "a free vote" is meant that the Government are indifferent as to what comes of it, he obviously cannot have one. If he chooses to ask the Government to take steps to ensure the passage of legislation, the Government must answer that question, when driven into a corner, either "Yes" or "No."
The operative word in the Motion of the noble Marquess, to which he did not for a moment refer, is the word, "now". The noble Marquess is asking us to legislate now, in the ultimate or penultimate Session of an expiring Parliament, on a subject which, speaking with the full

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authority of his Party behind him, the noble Viscount the leader of the Opposition has told us will be rigidly opposed on Party lines. The question we have to consider, as a practical proposition, is whether the Government are rightly asked, or would be acting wisely if they yielded to the advice, to legislate now on this subject in these circumstances. On that, the Government have come to the conclusion that the answer is, No—not because we have some pride in the decision arrived at in October, 1957, but because, for reasons which I will explain, we do riot think this is the right course of action to take now. In doing so, we are completely unwrung by the theory that we are acting as Mrs. Partingtons or objecting to the admission of women to the House of Lords, of which we are in fact the initiators and pioneers. The answer to that is that we do not think that we can legislate now.
If I may say so, it seemed to me that the noble Marquess completely missed the point of the passage of the Life Peerages Act less than six months ago. The noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, said that we were not allowed to discuss this point then. That is not quite the position as I recollect it. It was carefully explained, both in the Motion which preceded the Bill, on the Second Reading of the Bill itself, and by my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack during the course of the Committee stage, when he gave the guidance that he was so well able to give about what was in order, that the Government had, deliberately and as a matter of policy, decided not to legislate on this particular subject. The House passed the Bill knowing that this was the policy of the Government and the reasons which underlay it.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I quite accept that, but the point was that we could not have introduced an Amendment on this particular topic in that Bill.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: That I fully accept. The Bill could have been rejected, but the policy of the Government, announced and clearly explained in detail, was that we were prepared, for reasons which seemed to us to be adequate, to legislate on the subject of Life Peerages which, if the noble Viscount will allow me to say so without attempting in any way to misrepresent him, was treated with a certain amount of
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acquiescence on the part of the Party opposite, although not support. We deliberately desisted from voting on this and on a number of other topics of not less importance precisely because, in our view, controversy upon this topic would be unprofitable and unhelpful to the country at the present time. We did that absolutely deliberately.
What the noble Marquess who introduced this Motion has nowhere explained is where that situation which was underlying our decision then has in any way changed. If it would have taken up a lot of unprofitable discussion last Session, we do not think that it would take up any less now. We think that, on the contrary, if you legislate about this topic now you will inevitably incur the charge of frivolity which was already levelled at us when we passed the Life Peerages Act. We passed that Act, as we claimed (I know noble Lords opposite did not agree, but they will remember that we claimed it), precisely because we said there was a practical necessity for it.
But even so, and even though that was our case, there were a number of noble Lords—some, but by no means all. on the Benches opposite—who said to us: "You have no business to take up the time of Parliament with matters of this kind, in view of the great number of serious public issues which require ventilation and the long queue of subjects which are waiting for urgent treatment by the legislative function of Parliament." It would be inevitable, if we were to go back on that decision now, against our better judgment, under pressure from the noble Marquess, that people would say: "Here, for two years running, with all this long queue of legislative projects, you find it necessary to legislate about the composition of the Upper House of Parliament."
The Government are entitled to be jealous of Parliamentary time. We considered many other claims. We considered the Scottish Peers, and I remember now how my noble friend Lord Saltoun most eloquently moved their case. We considered the case of what I might call the reluctant heirs, as well as Peeresses in their own right. They were all decisively rejected from our legislative programme. In my view we could not revive one of them, the Peeresses in their own right, without reviving the claims

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of the others, with some of which I personally have a great deal more sympathy. All are in some measure controversial, either in this House or the other, and they would be great consumers of Parliamentary time. We do not think that the situation has radically changed in the last six months, and we do not think that this House would be performing its most valuable function by constantly debating its own reform. With the new Life Peers we think we are adequately equipped to discharge our function.
I would beg your Lordships not to underestimate the factor of time. If I take only the short time in which I have been in the Government, I or my noble friends have, at one time or another, had to play an extremely unpopular part in denying time to one set of proposals or another—the Lord's Day Observance laws, which most of us think are obsolete, the betting and licensing laws, the law of obscene publications, the marriage laws, the shops legislation, and many other topics. The truth is that a Government is compelled to be as jealous of Parliamentary time as it is of Government funds, and when we legislated to reform our structure by the addition of Life Peers we gave as much Parliamentary time to this subject as we thought was justified, but, even so, incurred the complaint that we were spending too much time on it.
It would be a mistake to suppose that these proposals are uncontroversial—we have seen the reason why this afternoon. The Labour Party would oppose them, and oppose them as a Party. It would complicate and embitter the relations between the Parties when, as I see it—and I hope that I speak without offence to either side—it is the duty of both Parties, as the Election approaches, to try to focus public attention on the things that really matter and to reduce to a minimum issues which do not matter, and the accusations and cross-accusations of foul play, mischievousness, irresponsibility or overbearing authority. I consider that it would be a mistake, in the light of what the noble Viscount has said this afternoon, for us to use whatever majority we may have in the other place or in this, in order to force through a reform, which even though it was justified, would be unpalatable to them. I myself
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would not say that it is by any means true that the reform proposed would be uncontroversial, even among noble Lords of the Conservative Party.
I was much impressed by what my noble friend Lord Ebury said. Although the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, poured scorn on those who do not approve of this particular measure on its merits, I must remind him of something which struck me very forcibly. Yesterday, in the course of the moving and impressive ceremony which we passed through at the beginning of our Session, a moving tribute was paid to Lord Badeley, one of the greatest experts on the whole subject of the composition of the House of Lords, who held by a remove of two or three the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments. When this matter was debated in 1949—and it is to be read in Hansard—Lord Badeley made the most formidable attack upon the merits of this proposal, not because he was against the merits of the equality of the sexes but because, knowing what he did about the technicalities of Peerage Law, he thought that the anomalies created by the admission of this extremely unusual and anomalous class of holders of Peerage dignities would be more serious than the advantages it would give.
It may be that Lord Badeley could be mocked at as a Mrs. Partington—I do not know. It is certainly true that the noble Marquess is well entitled to say that Lord Badeley's advice was not listened to in 1949. There are some people, I have no doubt, even now in your Lordships' House who, having looked at Lord Badeley's opinion on a matter of this kind, would just as soon be wrong with Lord Badeley as right with the majority. These things must be examined therefore in relation to the technicalities of the matter and the fact that they are not uncontroversial.
I cannot myself accept that this change would not involve an extension of the hereditary principle. For that reason I must, at the expense of wearying your Lordships, remind you, in as few sentences as possible, of the complicated details of this most unusual and, I would add, anomalous class of claimants to membership of your Lordships' House. Leaving aside the Scottish Peeresses, because they do not perhaps present the

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same difficulties (although only this afternoon I was warned that their admission might involve a change in the Act of Union. and no one knows how that can be clone without offending Scottish national sentiment), and leaving aside Scottish national sentiment as something, in this connection, of relatively small account, take the case of the Peerages by special remainder. Nobody can pretend that the Peerages by special remainder were so framed as to give a woman the right to succeed in order to give equal opportunity to the sexes to sit in the House of Lords. They were given for the purpose of perpetuating the line of a particular male person; that was the purpose for which those Peerages were created. In point of fact I must tell your Lordships, since I do not think the noble Marquess really appreciated the difficulty of the situation at all, that every Peerage by special remainder (and there are seven of them, I understand) which can confer on a female person the Peerage, dignity or title which was created by the Letters Patent is so worded as to exclude from her the right to sit and vote in Parliament.
I must say that I thought both the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, and the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, were unduly scornful of the first Lord Birkenhead, who, whatever his political views, was undoubtedly a great lawyer, when they failed to point out to the House that one of the principal arguments which the first Lord Birkenhead used in the Committee for Privileges in the Rhondda case was to read out the words of the Patent, which expressly excluded, or by clear implication excluded, from Lady Rhondda the right to sit and vote in Parliament although it conferred upon her the Peerage dignity.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: May I clear my own mind? May I get this from the noble and learned Viscount on the point he is on now? Is he saying in this argument that the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, was wrong in the past when he advised the House on two occasions that if the House wanted this it was possible for a Bill to be drafted?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am not on that point at all. What I am pointing out to the House, and I think the House ought to know, is that in the case of one of the two most important categories
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with which the noble Marquess is dealing, namely the Peerages by special remainder, which form seven of the Peeresses in their own right, the patents of nobility are so framed as to exclude the right to sit and vote in Parliament. What the noble Marquess is really asking us to do is something which has never been done before, although we have every right to do it and from the pure question of draftsmanship there would be no difficulty; that is, to create, in effect, named Peerages by Act of Parliament when they ought to be created by the exercise of the Royal Prerogative, and to do so when the patent does not grant but expressly excludes in that category of case the right to sit and vote in Parliament. It really is going a little far and making a mock of the Committee for Privileges of this House, which said in 1922 that what was never conferred could not be given by mere removal of disqualification, which was the basis of the Rhondda decision.
When we come to the other class, the Baronies by Writ, one is bound to make one or two observations about them. First of all, it must be said—and I want to say no word of disparagement of these Baronies, which include some of the oldest and most honoured names in your Lordships' House—that for, I think, something like 400 years in conferring new Peerages the Crown and successive Parliaments have always expressly followed another precedent in the method of descent. In other words, in regard to Peerages which have been created either in England or Scotland or in the United Kingdom for a period of, T. should have said without correction 400 years, whenever the Patent can be traced it is limited to descent to the heirs male only precisely because the consequences of descent by tail general, which is the method of descent of the Baronies by Writ, are so anomalous and so inconvenient that in actual practice it was thought desirable to discontinue them.
As regards this second and more numerous of the categories to which the noble Marquess's Motion applies, one is bound to say that he is seeking to admit to your Lordships' House the representatives of Peerages the method of descent of which was found so inconvenient even as regards the Peerage dignity, let alone the right to sit and vote in Parliament. which was never conferred on the female,

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that it has been by universal consent allowed to lapse into complete desuetude over a period of centuries. We are not really talking now about sex equality or the rights of women. It would be possible for your Lordships' House to legislate on the basis of creating sex equality in one of two simple ways. You could, if you liked, alter the laws of descent so that the eldest child, be he male or she female, should succeed to a Peerage dignity; that would be sex equality. I very much doubt whether the noble Marquess below the gangway would like it, but that would be sex equality. You could legislate by abolishing the hereditary right of male or female to succeed to a Lordship of Parliament whilst allowing them to retain Peerage dignity. Either could be represented as progress.
What the noble Marquess is asking the House to do is to admit to your Lordships' House the holders of Peerages by special remainder in respect of which the purpose of conferring the dignity on the woman was not sex equality but the maintenance of the line of a male person whom it was desired to honour and which were so framed as to exclude the right in the female to sit and vote in Parliament; and secondly, a group of Peerages, although they belong to very ancient and honoured families, whose method of descent has been found so inconvenient that it has never been repeated for centuries. I am not saying that that is necessarily wrong, but I do say that when the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, describes those who oppose it, including Lord Badeley, as "silly", he is really being intellectually a little arrogant. When I hear the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, in a tone of emotion which I should have thought was hardly deserved by this interesting but hardly vital subject, talk of justice and swallowing our pride and things which really ought to be done in the interests of the traditions of this country, I think he really underestimates the inconvenience of that which he is proposing.
For all those reasons, the Government cannot accept the Motion. On the merits of the question I have been simply seeking to elucidate the difficulties, and if I have appeared to express a view I now expressly wish to disclaim it on the part of my noble friends and myself; but on
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the point of policy I must say the Government's policy is not to accept this Motion, and we are prepared to vote on it.
4.10 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, we have had a brief but I think a not uninteresting debate on this subject, and I am obliged to those noble Lords who have taken part in it. The speech of the noble Viscount who leads the Opposition caused me, I am bound to say, no particular surprise. He took what I had expected to be the line. But what was perhaps rather remarkable was that he never dealt with the not unimportant contention, I thought, which had been put forward, that this was not in fact an extension of the hereditary principle at all. He merely assumed for his own convenience that it was such an extension, and based the whole of his argument upon that understanding. He referred to the case of the noble Baroness, Lady Ravensdale. I think I have already said, and I believe it to be right, that that is a special case standing upon its own merits, and to put forward the suggestion that that is the right way to deal with others of these ladies does not in any way necessarily follow. I think I am right in saying that there has always been a power to create Peeresses, but not so far carrying with it a right to sit in this House. My recollection is that Lady Cave was created a Countess after the death of her husband as a Viscount, and that Lady Daventry was created a Viscountess after the death of Mr. Speaker FitzRoy. So that those titles can be conferred, but at present they do not carry with them the right to a seat in this House.
The noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, painted a somewhat menacing and terrifying picture of the great opposition there would be to bringing these few ladies into the House—a picture of the great dissension between the two Parties; of the whole country being almost aflame with the campaign on either side as to whether the hereditary system should be upheld in this way or whether it should be kept under proper restraint. Does anybody really believe that this is going to create such a spasm of political emotion throughout the country as the noble Viscount tried to depict—and, indeed, rather to my surprise, as the noble Viscount replying for the Government equally indicated?

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The noble Lord, Lord Ebury, dealt largely with the hereditary system. I specifically said that I was not this afternoon concerned to discuss the rights or wrongs of the hereditary system, and I carefully kept away from any discussion of the merits or demerits—not that I have not views on the subject—of that system. But, in my contention, it is not an integral or an essential part, in any way, of the matter which your Lordships are discussing this afternoon. I made that point in the beginning, and I do not propose to repeat it.
The noble Lord also pointed out that the average age of these ladies may be high. I would suggest to him, in return, that of course the actual individuals are not constant. Peerages pass from a female holder to a male holder, and in the same way from a male holder to a female holder, on death, in such cases of peerage as descent by the female line. Therefore you cannot at one moment say, "This is a very high average age," because in the course of a year or two it may completely change and the actual individuals who would be entitled to enter your Lordships' House would at the same time change. The noble Lord, Lord Teviot, made what I think to be a valuable point in drawing attention to the fact that these ladies not only are not entitled to sit in the House of Lords, but are not entitled to attempt to obtain for themselves, by election, a seat in the other place. That is a double handicap under which they suffer and only increases what I still believe to be a real injustice upon them.
The noble and learned Viscount the Lord President of the Council gave a variety of reasons why he did not think that your Lordships should accept this Resolution. I said that any Government confronted with a demand for a reform of any kind will almost always claim that Parliamentary time does not permit of it. I had exactly the same argument brought forward when I produced a Resolution of this kind in 1949. LI have no doubt that if some noble Lord produces it in 1969, unless your Lordships take a stand on the matter here and now, he will be met with exactly the same argument—that Parliamentary time does not permit; that there are important things in the world; that there is this Bill, that Bill and the other Bill which the country is demanding, and that a little, trivial thing like this must be swept aside. I said in
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my opening speech, and I repeat now, that an injustice is not the less an injustice because it affects only a small number of people, and if your Lordships believe it to be an injustice it does not seem to me to be right for the Government to treat it in that way and merely to say, "There is no time for it; we are not going to consider a trivial, trumpery matter of this kind."
The noble and learned Viscount gave us an interesting and erudite dissertation on the subject of Peerage Law. Into these heraldic matters I am unable and unqualified to follow him, but I still think that it is a question of importance. Does what he is arguing in relation to the nature of these Peerages and the difficulties connected with them mean that a Bill could not be drafted if your Lordships desired that to be done? The noble and learned Viscount certainly was not going to say that that could not be done if it were your Lordships' desire. So that the question whether it is a difficult matter, whether it involves intricate questions of Peerage Law or whether it does not, seems to me to be beside the point if, by a measure drafted by Parliamentary counsel, those difficulties could be got over as I believe they could and, what is much more important, as the late noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, no doubt after careful consideration and taking the most expert advice, on two occasions advised your Lordships could be done.
I think it would be a pity to dismiss this as a frivolous matter as the noble and learned Viscount seemed inclined to do. I believe that it is, although a small reform, one which requires to be dealt with by the House; and I am quite unmoved in the view which I took in the earlier stages that this is a situation which has been entirely changed by the passage into law of the Bill which conferred Life Peerages. I think it only right to say that the admission of women Life Peers into your Lordships' House made the whole difference of principle—and it was the principle which was argued about at such length in the earlier debate. That I believe to be out of the way. There remains this injustice. Having listened to the speeches, I think it would be right that on a matter not of frivolous or trivial importance but of real injustice to a certain number of hereditary Peeresses,we should disregard all these threats of

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civil strife that have been paraded in front of us to-day as an excuse for—
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: You cannot pass laws that way. You can pass Resolutions.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: I still thought that one could pass laws by a majority of both Houses. But of course, it may be that the newer doctrine which was enunciated by the noble and learned Viscount is the right one: that it would not be possible to do that except with the assent of the Opposition.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I never said that and I do not want it attributed to me.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount got very near to it.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I said that to do what the noble Marquess was asking us to do now would be injudicious and foolish.
Resolved in the Affirmative, and Resolution agreed to accordingly.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: Because it would not have the assent of the Opposition.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Yes.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, if this is just, I am still of the opinion that it is not unreasonable in any way to press upon Her Majesty's Government that they should go forward with it, even if it is not acceptable to the Opposition. Otherwise I do not know what we are trying to legislate about in so many cases. On consideration, in view of the points which have been made in regard to this matter and in view of the nature of the Government's answer, I feel that it would be right that your Lordships should record your view, one way or the other, on the merits of the Resolution; and I propose to divide the House.
On Question, Whether the said Resolution shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 59; Not-Contents, 51.

CONTENTS

Ailsa, M.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Rea, L.

Ailwyn, L.

Ferrers, E.

Reading, M.

Airedale, L.

Gage, V.

Runciman of Doxford, V.

Amulree, L. [Teller.]

Gifford, L.

Russell of Liverpool, L.

Amwell, L.

Glyn, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Ashton of Hyde, L.

Gorell, L.

Salisbury, M.

Atholl, D.

Hampton, L.

Samuel, V.

Baden-Powell, L.

Hatherton, L. [Teller.]

Sandys, L.

Balfour of Burleigh, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Saye and Sele, L.

Birdwood, L.

Killearn, L.

Stonehaven, V.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Layton, L.

Strang, L.

Carlisle, E.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Stratheden and Campbell, L.

Cholmondeley, M.

Merthyr, L.

Swanborough, Baroness.

Cilcennin, V.

Middleton, L.

Swansea, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Monckton of Brenchley, V.

Swinton, E.

Cottesloe, L.

Moyne, L.

Teviot, L.

Croft, L.

Newall, L.

Willingdon, M.

Derwent, L.

Normanby, M.

Winterton, E.

Devonshire, D.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Wootton of Abinger, Baroness.

Digby, L.

Polwarth, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Albemarle, E.

Gosford, E.

Perth, E.

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Granville-West, L.

Rathcavan, L.

Attlee, E.

Greenhill, L.

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

St. Just, L.

Bathurst, E.

Hall, V.

Sandford, L.

Brentford, V.

Hawke, L.

Selkirk, E.

Chesham, L.

Jessel, L.

Shepherd, L.

Clitheroe, L.

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Sherwood, L.

Conesford, L.

Lawson, L.

Silkin, L.

Craven, E.

Lucan, E.

Stonham, L.

Denham, L.

Melchett, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Dundee, E.

Merrivale, L.

Teynham, L.

Ebury, L.

Mills, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Faringdon, L.

Morrison, L.

Williams, L.

Ferrier, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Wilmot of Selmeston, L.

Forbes, L.

Ogmore, L.

Winster, L.

Freyberg, L.

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Wise, L.

FUEL AND POWER POLICY
4.33 p.m.
VISCOUNT HALL VISCOUNT HALL rose to call attention to the national fuel and power policy; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I almost feel that I should apologise for introducing a matter of this kind after such an interesting debate as we have just had. I will not call it an important debate, because I think the subject matter of what we are going to discuss under my Motion is infinitely more important: it affects the lives of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of people; and, of course, it affects one of the main industries of the country.
It is well known that at the present time the coal industry is facing great difficulties. It is most unusual for this industry to be told that it is producing too much coal. What is wrong? Four years ago the industry was booming; there were increasing demands for more coal and power, and these demands were expected to grow, and to continue to grow for a decade or two decades. To meet the demand for power energy, coal, it was supposed then, had to be supported by two partners, both of which were very costly to buy and had to be imported from other countries, one from some hundreds or some thousands of miles away. Both of them were vulnerable, as was underlined during the Suez crisis, and, I repeat, costly—a fact which must add to any balance of payments difficulties which might arise. There is no doubt that the recession in trade in this country during the last six months has caused the falling off of some of the demand for coal. Not only here has there been a falling off of that demand, but also in most other European countries which are producing coal, though not to the same extent as in Britain. We are bound to admit that some of our trouble is of our own making, for which perhaps the National Coal Board have some responsibility. But I think the major responsibility rests mainly on the Government, who, with their advisers, have done so much estimating from 1954 until the present time that it led people to think that the demand and industrial production in this country were going to continue at that rate.
The estimated power energy required, according to estimates, by 1965 was some 300 million tons of coal equivalent, with 10 million tons for export. The basic
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assumption for this estimate was a statement made by a member of Her Majesty's Government some years ago, that in twenty-five years from 1955 the standard of life in this country could be doubled. To achieve this it would be necessary to increase annually the total index of industrial production by over 3 per cent. Unfortunately, that increase in industrial production has not been sustained—it was not sustained in 1957 or 1958—and there is no doubt that the reduction in production of both basic and some capital goods has been substantial. The latest figure which I have been able to get shows that of eight of the principal basic materials and capital goods produced in this country, only one showed an increase. That was commercial vehicles. Machine tools were down by 10 per cent.; steel by over 8 per cent.; coal by 4 per cent.; houses by 9 per cent. In consumer goods, of the nine industries which were referred to, in three the production was fairly large; the six others were down by amounts varying from 35 to 6 per cent.
This reduction may well be a pointer to the future position of industrial production and the decisions relating to the existing fuel energy programme and the fuels required. The recession has greatly affected the coal industry, the total consumption of which declined from 1957 to 1958 by 13 million tons. Ten million tons represented a fall in inland consumption, and 3 million tons in exports. Output for the same period was down by 8 million tons, and note must be taken that the National Coal Board propose to produce in total this year 203 million tons, of which 11 million tons will be opencast and 3 million tons will go into the large amount of stock which we have at the present time. Deep-mined coal will be reduced to 192 million tons—a reduction in deep-mined coal of 9½ million tons in 1959. That will mean a reduction of 18 million tons in deep-mined coal in two years. This, as your Lordships know, means the closing down of no fewer than thirty-six pits and the displacement of some 13,000 to 14,000 miners.
It must mean, too, almost the closing down of a number of communities, for, as your Lordships know, mining communities are usually built around the colliery. This is particularly so in the case of the old pits—those 50, 60, or 80 years old—where the pit is not merely the centre but is the economic life, and is the life

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of the community. Unfortunately, a large number of the pits to be closed are of that type. We have six in South Wales, and I know almost every district. My Lords, it is no use saying that you can transfer the workpeople from one pit to another. You can transfer some of the younger people, but when men have spent thirty, forty, or fifty years of their lives working in the pit, and have lived all their lives in that community, they cannot be transferred to any other colliery—or, indeed, to any other industry. Noble Lords who know the type of life which these people lead will understand the difficulty which is being caused as a result of the closing down of these collieries.
My Lords, I know that in such a situation there is always a danger of spreading alarm and despondency, but I should be insincere if I said that, with the present Government's programme for the coal industry, I could see any hope of a quick recovery of the industry. I base my view on the following reasons. First, we have very little of our coal export market left. Our exports last year were lower than they were in what might be regarded as any normal year during the last fifty years. They were only one-half of the exports during the two previous years. That in itself is causing a great deal of trouble, and I would ask anyone who is associated with or who knows the coal industry whether, in the light of the coal position in Europe, which is one of our largest markets, there is any possible prospect of increasing the export trade within, say, the next few years—even if then.
I do not want to be too despondent about this matter, for there are some other industries to which I am going to give great credit for the saving of fuel. One is the Electricity Authority, for in ten years—from 1948 to March last—the improvement in thermal efficiency in the generating stations has saved over 41 million tons of coal, valued at about £140 million. That saving has been brought about by reducing the amount of coal required in generating. Indeed, they have brought it down in some of the generating stations to less than a pound of coal for the generation of one unit of electricity. During the past four years what they have done in relation to the
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reduction in the cost of conventional power stations is surprising. The cost of a conventional power station has been reduced by 30 per cent. during the last four or five years. This is surprising and amazing, seeing what can be done with coal. With all the saving, the Central Generating Board is still the largest user of coal in the country, for it is taking some 46 million tons, most of which is the lowest grade fuel, which is of little use for any other purpose.
I have referred to the fact that coal has two powerful competitors. One, of course, is oil. I understand that nine electricity stations are at present burning oil, seven of which have been converted from coal, and that there are four stations in the course of conversion. Reading the cost for the change-over from coal to oil, one finds it rather surprising. The Paymaster General said only last month in another place [OFFICIAL REPORT (Commons), Vol. 596 (No. 27), col. 1308]:
"The position of the power station contracts is this. In 1955, when I said that our coal imports were costing us £73 million, the electricity industry, with the support of the Government, embarked upon a series of contracts for the purchase of oil for use in power stations. These contracts involved purchasing certain quantities of oil for the period of the middle 'sixties."
He also referred to the fact that this was brought about as a result of a shortage or a scarcity of coal. My Lords, there could not have been any shortage of coal in 1955. As a matter of fact, the £73 million paid for the import of coal in 1954–55 was more than it cost to import all the coal in the previous eight years. Whilst a certain amount of coal has been imported since 1955, it has been nothing compared to the £73 million. In that year, we exported more coal than we imported, and we received for our coal almost as much as was paid for the imported coal. In 1956, we started to store undistributed coal, 3 million tons of it. In 1957, that was increased to 8½ million tons and by 1958 the stocks of undistributed coal had gone up to nearly 20 million tons.
There is no shortage of coal in this country. What really happened was that certain decisions were taken, into which we were stampeded; and the result is that we have become tied up to a contract for the provision of oil equivalent to something like 6 million tons of coal

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until 1964 or 1965. I would ask the Minister whether he can tell us how long the contract is to continue. In addition to the use of oil for the generation of electricity, the supposed shortage of coal has induced many other industries to use oil instead of coal. For example, the use of oil for gasification is receiving increased attention from the various Gas Boards. It is said that by the spring of 1957 fourteen new plants were at work, and a further twenty-five, which were under order in the early part of 1958, will have been brought into working before the early part of this year. They will use something like 400,000 tons of oil a year. In addition, a large amount of gasification comes from refineries. I do not think that we can have much objection to that, but the conversion from coal gasification to oil gasification I just do not understand.
Not only that; I saw it reported the other day that the Gas Council, not being successful in their search for natural gas in this country, are likely to import liquefied natural gas from the Gulf Coast. I understand that an experimental craft has been built, or is being built, for its transfer. Are we going crazy about this matter? Is there a war against coal? It is almost impossible to believe that things of this kind have been done under the shelter of what was assumed to be a scarcity of coal. Again, we hear that the Transport Commission have announced that in the next few years it is hoped to eliminate the last of the steam engines for shunting and similar work by the use of oil.
Oil consumption in fields where coal could be used has increased from 19 million tons of coal, equivalent in 1957 to 28 million tons of coal equivalent in 1958; and during that period we have imported no less than £62 million worth of gas oil, diesel oil and fuel oil. The strange thing to me is that I find, on looking at the trade and navigation figures, that nearly £25 million for that oil has gone to Germany, Italy, France and the Netherlands. I have not heard of any oil being produced in these countries, except from refineries. I should like the Minister to look into that aspect, because I think that we ought to have some explanation of it.
In 1954–55, we turned to nuclear power, and I think that this also had a little to
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do with the shortage of coal. Our hopes were set on the development of nuclear power to provide electricity. It was suggested then that within twenty years nuclear power stations might produce annually electricity equivalent to the output Of 20 million tons of coal. Then followed, in 1955, a White Paper announcing a programme under which 1½ to 2 million kilowatts of nuclear power would be provided by 1965. Since then, we have gone on to a programme of 5 million kilowatts, and have extended the period to 1966. Seeing that the first programme meant that there would he a saving of 20 million tons of coal. I should like to ask the Minister whether that figure stands for the much larger nuclear power programme.
We know that the building of nuclear generating stations is costly. We are told that the first two to be built for the Electricity Generating Board, apart from the cost of the initial fuel charges, will cost roughly three times as much per kilowatt as the up-to-date conventional steam station. For the third station the capital cost, again excluding the cost of fuel charges, will be about two and a half times that of a conventional station. I have referred to the cost of fuel. Fortunately, most of the uranium which is brought into this country comes from the Commonwealth countries, South Africa supplying the greater part of the Atomic Energy Authority's import. Some of it comes from Canada, and some also now from Australia. In fact, we have prospectors in almost every country in the British Commonwealth—and I am not complaining, because uranium is very hard to get. The purchasing of this fuel is not the responsibility of the Minister of Power, but he must have some estimate of the cost to the Generating Board and the cost of generating electricity by this fuel. I have seen certain references made to the fact (and it is my experience) that not one scientist of any standing will state that electricity can be generated more cheaply from nuclear power than from coal. Indeed, someone associated with the Electricity Authority has recently said that he cannot see any possibility of it And, indeed, due to the fact that there has been a falling off in the use of electricity during this year, it unlikely that it will be possible to get such cheap electricity from nuclear plant as can be obtained from a conventional plant.
Last year I visited Australia, Canada and the United States of America, all of which countries have large programmes of electrical development, much of which I was able to see. I questioned some of the leaders of the industry about their building of nuclear generating stations, as there was little evidence of such stations being built. I was told, particularly in Australia and Canada, that they were interested in what we were doing in this matter, but were surprised that we were building so many of these nuclear generating stations. In Australia and Canada, both countries producing uranium, it was said: "We have coal which will provide us with cheaper electricity than nuclear power will do." The Americans were of the same opinion. They said: "We shall have some nuclear power stations for prestige purposes, but for no other purpose." It was interesting to note a statement issued in America last year of the countries using nuclear power for generating electricity, and of the position they would occupy in that matter in 1965. It was said that America will generate less than 1 per cent, from nuclear power; Europe will generate from 3½ to 4 per cent.; and Britain, if she carries out this present programme, will generate from 12½ to about 14 per cent.
All coal-producing countries maintain that generating electricity from coal is cheaper. It was interesting to see a statement made when a contract for a conventional generating station was given to C. A. Parsons quite recently. It was to the effect that when completed it will be the cheapest generating station in the country, although it will swallow up some 200 tons of coal a day. One cannot repeat too often that every ounce of uranium and almost every gallon of oil used in this country has to be imported. This fact must be felt when there are difficulties in relation to our balance of payments.
One is inclined to ask: Why are Her Majesty's Government so anxious to build twelve to fourteen nuclear generating stations in such a hurry? Our prestige is more than established in that branch of nuclear development; and we all expressed a good deal of appreciation of the scientists and those responsible for bringing this about. But, reading some of the publications which are issued, one comes
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to the conclusion that the use of nuclear power is only in its experimental stage. Indeed, in a publication by the Atomic Energy Authority last year, Sir John Cockcroft said: that in the commercial power stations now being built in Britain one ton of uranium would do the work of 10 thousand tons of coal. Sir John Cockcroft has forecast that eventually some years hence, we may expect to make a ton of the metal do the work of one million tons of coal.
All of us were really interested in the development of Zeta last year. It was said in one publication that I have here:
"Research with Zeta and other apparatus on the control of thermonuclear reactions has made good progress. But it is impossible yet to forecast when a contribution to power supplies from this source can be expected."
We do not know what is going to happen. Possibly during the next ten or twenty years the very nuclear power stations which we are building at the present time will be out-dated. Is it too much to ask the Government, in view of the situation, both in relation to the decline of our national production and the plight of the coal industry, that they should examine their fuel policy and their power policy with a view to revising it?
The Coal Board, representing the major industry in this field, plan, I take it at the request of the Minister, to reduce their policy of coal production. Because a former Minister of Power was advised that there may be a shortage of coal, fourteen stations are, or will be using oil, taking the place, as I have said, of 6 million tons of coal. I know that the Minister has reduced the original contract. We should like him to do a little more. Is it not possible to stop the four stations again to be converted to oil, and to let them continue to use coal? Is there no escape in the contract which has been entered into? When does the contract expire? If electricity can be produced from coal as cheaply as from oil—or indeed if it costs a little more—it is much better to use coal. Just as the Gas Board should concentrate their efforts on using more indigenous small coal, instead of importing oil and methene gas and natural gas from other countries, so the municipal authorities, and particularly the Railway Commission, should be strongly advised to concentrate on electrification for traction shunting and, indeed, other purposes on their railways, and to use coal and avoid using oil.
What is more important is to review the nuclear power station programme not by cutting down numbers but to see whether the period of construction could be extended to at least 1970 or, better still, 1975. Also there is an urgent need for an intensification of scientific research into the utilisation of coal. This is of particular importance with regard to smokeless fuels, and also in regard to using coal as a raw material for the extraction of chemicals, including possibly oil, rather than as a primary source for energy. As to smokeless fuel, I should like to ask the Minister whether he could tell me what progress has been made in this field, particularly on the shape progress.
There is still much dissatisfaction among the miners, and particularly the public, where opencast coal is still being mined. Can the Minister and the National Coal Board do something to reduce it? The coal industry is one of our most important industries. It should know where it stands as to future output. Her Majesty's Government cannot now be thinking in terms of an output of 228 million tons in 1960, or, indeed, of 240 million tons in 1965. This year we are producting 203 million tons, 3 million tons of which is going into stock. The miners should have some idea of the stability of their employment. Any reorganisation of the industry means the closing down of pits—and do not let us have a repetition of what is happening at the present time, an announcement of the closing down of thirty-six pits, and within a few weeks notices being given to a large number of the 13,000 persons who are affected and who are to leave their present employment, many of whom, because of age, cannot get employment in other industries. The Coal Board should know years in advance of the pits which would be closed in the event of a further reduction of coal consumption. It should give much longer notice—some months or even years in advance—which would allow time to transfer the younger men to other pits, or give them time to get work in other industries. The Coal Board should see that an adequate pension or other remuneration is provided for the older workmen who cannot he transferred to other collieries or find other work.
We are facing a long-term problem in the coal industry, for we must face the fact that we may well in some way be moving out of the coal age as we knew it. To blind ourselves to the advance of atomic power and Zeta is a failure to recognise the major problem of the coal industry in the future. Atomic power and Zeta, when they are established, will not only be cheap but clean, and who, with my noble friends Lord Lawson and Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, have spent many years of my life in the coal mines and owe a good deal to the coal miners, cannot help confessing that there is a great deal to be said for the finding of alternative work to coal mining for the generations to come, thus eliminating the heavy toll of fatal and serious accidents and disease to which the men employed in the mines are so subject. Probably in about ten or twenty years the prophecy of one ton of uranium doing the work of one million tons of coal will have materialised, and the research on Zeta will be so advanced as to provide power much more cheaply than from coal, and from something of which we have plenty in this country. and that is water.
I trust that Her Majesty's Government will face their responsibilities towards the men employed in the coal mines now being closed down, and that in the present and the future the Coal Board will give longer notice of the closing down of pits and will take constant measures to alleviate the possible increase of unemployment in the coalfields. When the Minister and the Government are reviewing the fuel policy of this nation, may I make a strong appeal to them that they will always give priority to the products provided in this country and particularly the product which has served this country so well—that is, coal. The coal industry has been, and may still be, the basis of this nation's prosperity. I beg to move for Papers.
5.17 p.m.
VISCOUNT RUNCIMAN OF DOXFORD: My Lords, I will not attempt to detain your Lordships by going over much of the ground which has been so ably and so eloquently covered by the noble Viscount, Lord Hall. I am not sure that I am in entire agreement with him on all points. I think one has to admit that, particularly for purposes of transport, the advantages of oil over coal

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are so great that it is almost impossible to go any substantial way back on them. I wish to detain your Lordships for a few moments on one aspect of a particular subject with which the noble Viscount dealt at some length, and that is the conversion of a number of waterside power stations to oil instead of coal. This is a matter in which I might be said to have some small interest, which I therefore declare to your Lordships.
Those power stations consume, or will consume when the conversion is completed, about the equivalent of 6 million tons of coal. The noble Viscount has already touched on the consequences to the coal industry and employment of that switch, and I do not propose to go further into it. I want to talk about it from the issue, at first sight perhaps rather narrow but, I think, wider than it may at first appear, of the shipping involved in carrying that coal or that oil. Some years ago the Central Electricity Generating Board gave an undertaking to the private shipowners engaged in that trade that they would use private shipping to the extent of about 40 per cent. of their requirements. I am not suggesting that they did that out of any motive other than good commercial sense, and I hope it has proved so.
In July of last year they had to tell these same owners, who had in the meantime been continuing their building programmes in the light of the earlier undertaking, that the Generating Board found themselves compelled not only to reduce their own tonnage but, in consequence or therewith, to cut the percentage of private charters from 40 per cent. to 20 per cent.; that is to say, halve the percentage of a smaller total quantity, a cut of more than a half in all. That was naturally a blow to both parties, and the result of recent developments in this field has been that the total coastwise fleets adapted for the carriage of bulk cargoes, including those owned by the Electricity and Gas Boards, has in the last eighteen months diminished by something like 8 per cent. net—that is to say, setting off those that have come in against those that have gone out—a rate of loss which I am sorry to say shows no sign whatever at present of being reduced. Indeed, the general indication is that for a few years to come at least there will be further cuts.
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That is bad enough for the people in these trades, whether publicly or privately owned. It is bad enough for the people who have been employed in these ships, whether they be scrapped or sold foreign or laid up, and it is almost bound to be one of those things, because, as the noble Viscount justly pointed out, there is little export trade to compensate for the loss of the home trade. The only result, I think, will be that these ships, being redundant in these circumstances, will add to the general redundancy of tonnage on the market, and they will not only be of little use to anyone themselves but, by the ordinary processes of the market, will reduce the value of all the other coastwise tonnage of the same kind which is still going about the place. We are told that this is to some extent a temporary phase; that by about 1965 there will be a further demand, at any rate for private tonnage, for the purposes of carrying coal for electricity generation. But my Lords, when you are unemployed, whether you be an individual or whether you be a ship, five years is a very long time to wait, and I do not think I am being unduly alarmist when I say that if things go on as they are now, in five years' time you will not have the ships when you want them.
Against that, it may be argued that as the oil for these power stations is seaborne there is a sat-off; that this is merely exchanging one kind of tonnage for another, a proper, logical, progressive, even desirable development. There is, of course, some force in that argument, but I think it is not as strong as it might appear. I believe I am right in saying, as regards the two oil companies which hold at any rate the principal contracts for the carriage of oil to these particular generating stations, that in one case one of them, for the purpose of selling the oil c.i.f., and being therefore required to provide its own tonnage, did bring to this country some four or five tankers which has previously been operating in Venezuela under the Panamanian flag, clothed them in the respectability of the Red Ensign and employed them in the trade. In the other case, where the contract was f.o.b., the company concerned went out into the market and chartered something like the same number of rather smaller tonnage vessels which were already, I believe, under the British flag.

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It may be argued that the importation of oil in any case gives employment to the British Mercantile Marine. I do not want to cast aspersions where they are unjustified, but anyone who goes past Fawley as often as I do may wonder how far that proposition can be sustained. If it could be shown that these hardships, and they are undoubtedly hardships, were being sustained by that particular branch of the British Mercantile Marine at considerable gain to the world at large and this country in particular, I think one would have no option but to say, "That is that." Those concerned, through no fault of their own, because they were no party to the decision when it was made, nor was it one which could have been anticipated by men of ordinary commercial prudence at that time, might say, "That is that. We have had it and we must make the best of a bad job". But I have not heard it suggested that, here and now, or over the next few years—and if I am wrong I shall be most grateful to my noble friend the Minister if he will correct me—the generation of electricity by oil is more economical than generation by coal. If I remember rightly, there are words in the annual reports of the Central Generating Board which bear out that point very conclusively. I think the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, made the same point, and I am fortified by the feeling that he is on my side in the matter.
There is, therefore, so far as I can see, no valid balancing advantage in the use of oil for this particular purpose, except, as the noble Viscount has already said, that contracts have been entered into for this purpose and that contracts have to be honoured—that, indeed, was the point made by the Paymaster General in another place, both last month and, I think, again last night. But I do not think there are many classes of contract, except perhaps marriage, which cannot be dissolved by agreement between the parties, even though a certain amount of cash may have to pass in the process. The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, suggested that this matter might usefully be looked at again, speaking from his point of view, which I take it, if I may say so, is more concerned with those who produce the coal. I look at it perhaps more from the point of view of those who are involved in carrying it, and I come to the same conclusion. No doubt it might be a tolerably costly thing to do. The
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oil companies concerned have been pressed, we have been told, and they have already made concessions. They may well feel that they ought not to be asked, at any rate for nothing, to do it again. But I venture to suggest that there is a situation there, largely of tangible things, but also perhaps of intangible things, which it would be worth having a look at again. The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, remarked, if I heard him aright, that when this country gets into trouble, either internationally or otherwise, one of the forms of the trouble is apt to be a shortage of oil, and one is more inclined to fall back on coal.
The point I should like to leave in your Lordships' minds this afternoon is this. It may be that a fall of 8 per cent. in dry-cargo, bulk carriage coastwise tonnage in this country over 18 months is not as bad as it looks. But even if it is not itself as bad as that, it has a number of what the doctors call side effects which can be very had indeed. I need not. I think, remind your Lordships of the probable effect upon the employment of seamen, a matter to which the noble Lord, Lord Winster, may be disposed to refer later from his intimate connection with the subject. But I do say this: that these particular contracts, more than anything else that has happened of late years, have persuaded those responsible for the bulk cargo carrying coasters round the shores of this country that their services are no longer required. Everything that has happened has discouraged them financially, and nothing much, I think, even by way of exhortation, has been given them in the contrary sense to lead them to regard it as a reasonable proposition to replenish, let alone to expand, that particular fleet.
I do not need to stress to your Lordships the defence arguments in favour of a substantial coastwise fleet. I do not wish to resort to a patriotic appeal—the "last resort of a scoundrel"—but I do say that even in time of peace you will almost certainly find, if you allow coastwise shipping in this country to disappear at the rate at which it is disappearing. in a few years' time that you want it; and then, quite certainly, it will be too late. You cannot produce ships or the capital to build ships out of the bag unless there is some continuing encouragement of their employment. I beg the Minister,

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if he is moved, as I hope he is, by what the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, said, to be moved also, even if it should be a difficult and possibly a costly matter, to curtail these particular contracts for oil and to think very seriously about the advantages which he might find, or the disadvantages which he might avoid, by doing so.
5.32 p.m.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, I listened with the deepest interest to the important speech of my noble friend Lord Hall. If he will forgive me, I will not follow him in detail into that speech, because time is getting on and I want to deal with one specific aspect of the matter. But I should like to say that I noticed in particular what the noble Viscount said about the forecasts held out as to the possibilities of nuclear power. I have seen some of those forecasts, and I must say, in my ignorance, that the thought has often passed through my mind: why do we make these efforts to switch over to oil? Why do we not rub along with coal, as I am quite sure that we can do, and wait for the development of this nuclear power? It seems to me that in pressing this switch to oil we are pressing for the expenditure of a great deal of money which may ultimately be found to have been spent in vain.
I wish, in the short time that I hope to take, to call attention to certain aspects of the policy of the Central Electricity Authority in using oil instead of coal at their seaboard power stations. In doing this, I should say at once that I shall express the views of the Merchant Navy Officers' Association, of which I happen to be president; and although I cannot, of course, speak officially for the National Union of Seamen, I happen to know that in this matter the Union and the Association see eye to eye. The results are indeed very serious as has been emphasised by the noble Viscount. Lord Runciman of Doxford. He said towards the end of his speech that some of those connected with coastal shipping are beginning to wonder whether their services are any longer required and, having regard to the importance of a healthy, strong coastal shipping trade to the economy of this country, this is indeed serious news to hear from such an authority as the noble Viscount.
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In the Merchant Navy Officers' Association I have seen and heard a good deal about some of these results. A company which has managed a substantial part of the Central Electricity Authority's fleet has already notified the personnel employed in their ships that fewer ships will be required in future: so that in coming years perhaps 20 ships may be withdrawn from that fleet—and in fact a number of ships have already been withdrawn. I have heard that the ships which served the Poole power station have been sold, and that the fleet of 46 ships which have been employed by the Authority will eventually be reduced to 25 ships. The colliers of which I am speaking are modern ships, specially designed and built for their work, and not readily adaptable to any other work than that which they have been doing in carrying coal to the power stations.
The Central Electricity Authority Report for 1956–57 seemed to me to rely upon nuclear energy as the best long-term means of meeting an anticipated fuel shortage, and they decided that the short-term fuel gap should be filled by oil imports rather than by coal. That was their policy in 1956–57, and, as we have heard to-day, they signed up with two oil companies for the supply of fuel oil for seventeen power stations. Some of these seventeen were to be converted; others were new; and with one exception all these oil-burning stations were to be convertible to coal, should the need arise. It was expected that by 1960–61 oil consumption would reach 5¾ million tons annually, equal to 9 million tons of coal. That was their thought in 1956–57, but at the end of 1956 the Suez adventure compelled the Electricity Authority to cut its oil consumption, and doubts about the future led to delays in carrying through the oil conversion programme, though it has since been partly resumed. However, millions of pounds have been spent to facilitate the use of oil instead of coal at the Authority's power stations. During the past year, 1958, fourteen stations were expected to be converted to oil burning.
When considering this oil policy it is often forgotten, but I think it should be remembered, that the public, as well as the Electricity Authority, have an interest in this matter. Coal is indigenous here; it employs a large labour force of perhaps half a million—the noble Viscount will be better acquainted with the figure.
VISCOUNT HALL: It is 700,000.
LORD WINSTER: Yes, about that. To switch to oil from coal means throwing not only miners but seamen out of work, and in fact some shipbuilders too, because the construction of these carriers of which I have spoken is highly specialised work; therefore shipbuilding labour is also in danger. Already, I believe, the National Coal Board are curtailing recruitment, and colliers specially constructed for carrying coal to power stations have been laid up or disposed of. As I have said, such ships are unsuitable for other employment than coal-carrying.
As regards coal-carrying, it is not only the coal trade here at home that has fallen. The European coal export trade has fallen from just over 26 million tons in 1938 to about 4 million tons in 1958—a tremendous drop in the export coal trade, which again makes the chance of employment for these ships still less rosy. And it is a fact that the ships which were ordered, in view of the Authority's agreement with private shipping companies that those companies should carry a large percentage of the coal required by the Authority, are now being delivered—at a time when the use for them has largely gone. They may become surplus, and the money which has been spent upon their construction may be found to have been wasted.
Yet I have been told that the National Coal Board can meet the current requirements of the Electricity Authority; and that they feel that, by mechanisation and recruitment, they would be able to meet the needs of a greatly expanded power of production. Seeing that we have the coal here, I believe most people will agree that where coal can compete economically with oil, it should be used. Surely it must be contrary to our best interests to follow a policy which makes production of power more dependent on oil imports, especially having regard to the policies of the Middle East, an area which is so unstable, but which is the only source of oil inside the sterling area. Having regard also to the fact that the Suez Canal is now under Colonel Nasser's control, I should have thought that this was more than ever a time when we needed to be turning round to see what can be clone with coal, which we produce here at home.
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Increasing purchases of oil must affect the balance of payments, They will also provide money for those ship-owners who operate under flags of convenience—which it is agreed are such a serious threat to our whole shipping industry. The use of oil favours those who use flags of convenience, and at the same time our coal stocks are piling up at an absolutely unprecedented level. I do not know whether it is right, but I have been told that the National Coal Board are paying a stocking charge of 13s. 6d. on each ton of coal which is piling up. This is a policy of Bedlam: there can be no sense of any kind in it. I appreciate, of course, that the Authority's policy is dictated to it from above; but it cannot be reconciled with the assurances that we constantly hear about the maintenance of full employment and about encouragement being given to men to make a career in the Board's collieries, and exhortations to miners to increase production, on every ton of which the National Coal Board are to pay another 13s. 6d.
I have been told that the Electricity Authority accepted oil only when there were fears of a coal shortage, and that their engineers would be very happy to return to coal, other things being equal, economically and otherwise. Incidentally, if they have to instal gas washing equipment (which is very expensive) because of the "clean air" cry, they will be let in for very heavy expenditure. Oil consumption has now gone up from 282,000 tons in 1957, a modest figure, to the equivalent of 3½ million tons of coal. while millions of tons of coal, as I have said, are being piled on the ground. As I understand it, in terms of heat one ton of oil equals 1¼ tons of coal, so that the cost of oil is competitive with that of coal only if its price is proportionately less than that of coal.
I feel that I am quite justified in saying that the present policy, if pursued, will affect our national economy and our coastwise trade and the employment of British seamen and British miners. It is not yet too late to change it, and I think it should be changed. In the past, coal has been considered to comprise three-quarters of our coastwise trade—about 28 million tons—and three-quarters of that figure is consumed by gas and power undertakings. We ought to think very long and very deeply before we cut coal out of that use.

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I mentioned the possibility of coal consumption increasing, but will that increase be at land stations or at waterside stations?—because if it is increased only at land stations that will be of no help to the shipping interests, and I speak for those interests perhaps more than for any other. As the noble Viscount, Lord Runciman of Doxford, and I have pointed out very firmly, coasting tonnage is dwindling; yet coastal tonnage, a strong healthy coastwise shipping, is essential to transport in time of war and in such a fuel crisis as we had in 1946–47. The existing situation is serious. It is not healthy. It is largely due to Government policy, and in my opinion Her Majesty's Government should now re-examine and reconsider that policy.
5.47 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, sometimes one seems to pass a milestone in one's life, and a little more than sixteen years ago I thought I had passed a very big milestone when I sustained the ordeal of making a maiden speech in your Lordships' Chamber. It was an occasion of considerable difficulty, and most of your Lordships who are here this afternoon were not present then, although some were. It was during the period when, thanks to your Lordships' magnanimity and generosity, Members of another place were occupying your Lordships' Chamber. On that occasion I rejoiced greatly and felt I had passed another milestone and that never again should I have to make a maiden speech in your Lordships' Chamber. But "never" is a very long time and here I am again, but this time I am seeking your Lordships' indulgence at my second attempt to make a maiden speech in your Lordships' Chamber.
I venture to intervene in this debate despite my awareness of the very intense and particular interest and knowledge which many of your Lordships have in the particular industries which we are discussing, because during a period of about five informative years I spent at the Ministry which was then called the Ministry of Fuel and Power I came to acquire a deep and happy association with those industries and an exceedingly great interest in them. I hoped, therefore, that I might possibly have something which I could contribute to your Lordships' deliberations.
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As the noble Viscount who moved this Motion intimated, there is no doubt whatsoever that coal is, has for a long time been and will continue to be, the fundamental resource for all the fuel and power industries which we have. I think it would be a very bold person who was prepared to wager that for a considerable number of years to come at least three-quarters of the heat and energy which are produced and used in this country will not be derived, directly or indirectly, from the raw material of coal. Therefore I should like to consider for a few moments the problems of that fundamental industry upon which the noble Viscount himself touched with his very broad and detailed knowledge.
There is no doubt that the industry has great, though by no means insuperable, problems at the present time. And, equally, those problems bring with them great, if not unique, opportunities at the present time. I think it is as well for us not only to look at the present situation in the coal industry but also to try to foresee something of the future situation in the coal industry, which can and should progress and improve arising out of the present situation. But in order to do that one must have some regard to the cause of the problems which are besetting the industry at the present time. If I may, therefore, briefly and broadly, paint the situation as I came to learn it in the industry, I think it may help us to see what has been happening and why the present situation has arisen.
Your Lordships know that the industry enjoyed an almost uninterrupted period of expansion and progress up to that phenomenal year of 1913 when it had a world's all-time record output and an all-time record export business. Almost immediately after that we were at war, and the industry suffered the necessary concentration that the war brought. After that period of concentration we fell upon troubled times in the industry and the general period of depression throughout all industry in this country. The result then was that the industry had no profits which it could plough back for purposes of research, development or modernisation. In fact, in the middle 'thirties the total profit overall on the average throughout the industry was only 2 per cent.; and most of that, as many of your Lordships know, was derived from the East Midlands coalfields, and even South

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Yorkshire and the West Midlands were not doing much better than breaking even. In consequence, in most of the rest of the coalfields of the United Kingdom considerable losses were being made, with the result, as many of your Lordships will remember, that collieries were being sold, not for the coal they could produce but for the quota of coal they were entitled to produce, so that those collieries could be closed down and their quotas added to some producing colliery.
Your Lordships know full well what sort of effect that business has upon any industry at all. Consequently it was in a period of very grave difficulty indeed that the industry had to meet the demands of an expanding general industry throughout the country with the revival in 1938. Again, almost as soon as it had that situation to contend with, once more we were at war, and the coal industry, of all industries, suffered probably worse than any. It resulted in uneconomic production in order to get the easiest coal the quickest possible way, without regard to long-term development of the pits. It resulted in shortage of manpower and, of course, the lack of mechanised replacements and renewals.
Then we came, at the end of that period, to the post-war period when, indeed, the industry might have looked forward to and hoped for a period of rehabilitation. It was worn out as an industry, both as regards the man power and personnel in the industry and particularly as regards its physical equipment. But no such period of rehabilitation was possible, because immediately after a period of expansion set in generally and the demands upon the industry were continually increasing for more and more production of coal. Then, after that, the industry was nationalised; and, whatever good things that may have brought to the industry, it undoubtedly brought many difficulties with it:, too. And when one comes to think of the tasks which Parliament laid upon the new National Coal Board at that time one realises it really is a most extraordinary thing for us to have done.
As many of your Lordships know, when one considers the problems of industry one recognises that big industry has normally grown by the developing of enterprises, and as they develop they may amalgamate with others, but on every occasion they
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choose their path of expansion and development. But not so with the coal industry. Parliament said, in effect, that in three months' time the newly constituted National Coal Board—if I may paraphrase a recipe from the notable cookery book by that famous lady, Mrs. Beeton—should take a 1,000 or so collieries and add as many coke ovens as they could. Then they should mix in a retail trade of considerable size and a very large holding indeed of agricultural property, making them one of the biggest land owners in the country. Then they should stir in some housing estates from all over the country, including Scotland and Wales, and should season with the addition of some boot factories, bakeries, canteens and things like that; add opencast mining operations to taste, and then cook well according to a blueprint of new organisation which had been provided by Parliament and which did not at the same time provide them with either divisional or area administration or offices, the latter being almost impossible to get at the time. Finally, my Lords, the recipe says: serve up, without profit or loss, to meet the needs of the nation and to improve the standards throughout the industry.
Of course, that was a pretty tall order for any newly constituted board of directors, and I think they tackled the job in a most wonderful way, right from the top to the bottom of the industry; and the task which they did was a noble task and a very wonderful one indeed. But throughout the whole of the period at the beginning of this decade the problem which they had to meet was what we used to call the problem of elbow room. The pressure of demand was continually increasing as business and industry were expanding. The standard of living of the people was improving, and the consumption of coal was increasing. There never was any time, any period at all, when the industry had the opportunity of sitting back and saying, "Now we can really organise ourselves". It is a fact that their problems were accentuated by a great many people of very wide experience leaving the industry at the time of nationalisation and the consequent necessity of continuous improvisation and continuous speeding up of promotion with the result that many square pegs got into round holes.

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I expect that probably several of your Lordships have also experienced the opportunity of being underground in a pit where the pit bottom is being entirely redeveloped, replanned, and redesigned, and where it looks as though the engineers are creating nothing but chaos and confusion throughout the whole of the shafts and the adjoining roads and sections of the pit; and yet at the faces of the pit the coal has to be produced, the roads have to be kept open, and the coal has to flow from the face right up to the surface. They did it, and how they did it always amazed me when I was underground myself. But, of course, it was not an economic way of doing it, it was not a speedy way of doing it, and it was by no means a good way of doing it. There was therefore a continuous demand throughout the whole of the industry for room to manœuvre, for relief from the pressure of demand, and that was why we sought to grant the industry that opportunity by the means which have been referred to by your Lordships this afternoon—by getting electricity produced from oil instead of from coal, by the speeding up of nuclear power for the production of electricity, by the creation of gas from oil (which always seemed a most extraordinary thing; however, it happened to fall to my lot to have the honour to open what I believe to be the last coal carbonisation plant for the production of gas in London) and also by conversion throughout industry, commerce, and domestic consumption as well, from coal to oil, and, if that was not feasible, the use of coal in a far more economical and efficient way so that so much should not be used.
Now, my Lords, the results are being achieved, and elbow room has been won for the coal industry. I do not think that any of your Lordships can regret more than I do the necessary dislocation which that is bound to cause in the lives of a certain number of men employed in the industry, and I most wholeheartedly concur with what the noble Viscount said in his opening speech about the hardship which that involves, particularly as it affects the older people in the industry, who may have worked at the same pit for forty years or more. But, so far as others are concerned, in the industry
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there is, I think, much more mobility and much more interflow with ordinary industry than one often realises.
At times when the shortage of manpower in the coal industry was so acute that we could not get the production that was necessary we used to find that, as soon as there was a recession of any sort which was near a coal mine—quite a local one, for any cause, in any industrial sphere—labour used to start flowing into the pits and that the local problem was solved until the time when the recession passed, when the labour would then flow out from the pits into industry again. It is the same thing with regard to mobility. Many of your Lordships will know the situation in Cumberland and Scotland—how the pits are necessarily following the line of the seams from west to east, and the steps which have been taken to move families of miners, communities of miners, to follow the collieries as they are developing further in the east. Under modern arrangements, under modern conditions, and with the help which the Coal Board is giving them, in the case of active men and of young men that has worked to a very great extent far better than any of us would have thought some years ago, when the collier was regarded as an immobile person who lived in the colliery community and was never going outside it.
May I say one further word about the colliers themselves? I have always found—and many of your Lordships will, I know, bear this out—that they are loyalty itself, and if they can be made to understand that what is being done by the National Coal Board is for the good of the industry as a whole, then I am perfectly certain that they will be prepared to accept such personal sacrifices as it involves in order that the industry as a whole shall benefit from what is being done. But now is the opportunity for the National Coal Board. Now is the time when the pits can be overhauled; when they can be redesigned and laid out; when the administration can be replanned, and when the square pegs can be got into square holes and into their right places.
The industry has a unique opportunity now—an opportunity which has to a great extent been deliberately planned—and the Board, as I know, has the courage and the imagination to take advantage

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of its chances and to seize the opportunity. I am perfectly certain that the management and the unions themselves have absolute loyalty to the industry, and are prepared to play their own parts in the situation which must arise in order to modernise and reconstruct, and to put the industry on to a really sound basis. I, for my part, my Lords, am absolutely confident that the industry will again become the most efficient in the world, and that it will again be able to serve the other industries of this country and the nation as a whole in the way in which it would itself wish to do; and I know that the nation as a whole will be proud to see it do it.
6.8 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, it can fall to relatively few of us to score a right and a left in your Lordships' Chamber, and if Lord Brentford's right was as good as his left, it must have been a jolly good speech. I am sure that I echo all your Lordships' views when I say that I hope we shall hear him frequently in the future, and that we shall continue for a long time to hear him en these subjects, because he has given us a well-informed speech on this most important topic.
Coming to discuss the subject of this debate, I should first of all like to congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, and to thank him for bringing it before us—-and I am sure we all agree on that point, too. It is a subject of very great importance at the moment, and I find myself in considerable anxiety concerning the recent happenings. About eighteen months ago, or very recently, we all were thinking—we were probably badly informed—in terms of a shortage of coal. In Europe, the O.E.E.C. and E.C.S.C. were desperate for the last knob of coal, and did not appear to be able to get it. Now they are in almost the same position as we are in. If this is planned, my Lords, all I can say is that it would have been a great deal better if some indication that that was the plan had been announced before it happened. I do not know whether it has been planned at all, but I ant anxious and I am worried. Is this merely a temporary thing? Is it the result of planning, or have all the calculations of the various Governmental advisers in Europe and here been so vulnerable that for some reason they have been com-
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pletely upset? That is my fear, and that is what it looks like, without knowledge. That is why I am so glad that the noble Viscount has brought this Motion before us to-day.
My Lords, it is very easy to criticise and to blame other people. It is a process in which there is very little merit, and it is of no real value. Sometimes one says things that appear to be critical without meaning them to be so, and I hope your Lordships will accept from me that I do not wish to be critical or controversial at all. I think that this matter is miles above Party: it is much too important for that. As I see the problem there are two major points about the utilisation of coal. The first is that industry, both nationalised and private enterprise, must be assured of a certain and adequate supply of suitable coal at a comparatively economic price. The second is that means must be found of utilising all small coal produced.
Perhaps I may consider the second point first, because it is more involved. I have been told that the National Coal Board have spent much time and money in producing or adapting machines for cutting and loading coal which produce less smalls; but that is only a partial answer. It is certainly better than something that was had. But there is no getting away from the fact that smalls tend to increase and it seems to me that all forms of mechanical handling of coal tend to increase the quantity of smalls. If the overall production of coal is to be increased, equally the overall quantity, though not necessarily the percentage, of smalls will also be increased. We appear to be unable to use the smalls we are producing at this moment. Therefore, this is a point of importance and worry, on which we should like to be assured.
I would draw your Lordships' attention to the sterling work that has been done in this field by the National Industrial Fuel Efficiency Service. In their fourth Annual Report there are striking figures which I think everybody interested in this subject should read. I should also like to draw attention, in passing, to the extraordinary fact that all the nationalised fuel-using industries are sponsoring N.I.F.E.S.—with one exception: British Railways, who use a large quantity of large coal, which is the only kind of coal that we can export. If they

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are wasting, or unless they take every measure possible to check up that they are not wasting, coal, I think that something is radically wrong there. When all is said and done, if the Electricity Generating Board welcome N.I.F.E.S. and tare thankful for its co-operation and advice, there is nothing infra dig. in British Railways accepting the same measure of their own efficiency in their own house. I am quite aware that steam locomotives have had their day, but they have not all been abolished, and they will consume a vast quantity of coal before complete electrification is a fact. During that interim period a great deal of attention should be paid to the fact that they are using coal which we could export and which is in short supply.
N.I.F.E.S. also stresses the fact that surprisingly little large coal, or even doubles, is used in industry, and that industry is rapidly going over to burning the small fuels for which we want to find a use. When we talk about increased fuel efficiency and the saving of coal, we must remember that that does not necessarily mean burning less coal: it can equally well mean the production of two articles instead of one for the same amount of fuel, by using improved plant and increasing output. I think that that is the proper aspect of fuel efficiency, not cutting the use of coal. The situation in the propaganda changes so rapidly from superabundance to starvation that one does not know quite where one stands, and that is one of the things about which I am anxious.
There are one or two small palliatives that would help in pushing the use of small coals. I should like the Minister to give us a few details, if possible, of how some current experiments are going along. One use of small coals is briquetting, making little lumps into big lumps. I know that a certain amount of work has been done on this, and I wonder whether we have had full consultation with European concerns who have been doing this for a long time and who, I think, may be in advance of us—for example, the European Coal and Steel Community and O.E.E.C. They have done a great deal of work on this, and I do not know what the results are, whether we know what they are, whether we are working with them or whether we
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are off on a side issue. I should like to know about that, if possible.
Apart from gasifying oils, I understand that the Gas Boards have been experimenting with complete gasification of coals which are not carbonising coals in the true sense. I believe that they have been successful, and I hope that we may hear a little more about this, because it represents another use for small coals. Then there is the interesting experiment, which is being carried out by British Railways, with an injector type of exhaust blast used in the smoke-box of locomotives. It is claimed by the sponsors of this device that it gives an overall increase of efficiency of about 5 per cent., with the added advantage of being able to burn, and burn completely, small coals. Considering the vast amount of coal that British Railways have yet to burn before they are electrified, I am sure that this is something that should be gone into very carefully. I understand that the capital cost of this device can be written off in eighteen months or two years on the savings that will accrue. It is not a brand-new idea. I think that I am right in saying that it is used in some fifteen foreign countries already, so it is not a fresh invention, although perhaps it is new to this country. If possible, I should like to have a few words on that. I told the noble Lord, Lord Mills, that I was going to raise some of these points, but I am afraid that I did not give him adequate notice, and if he cannot answer I can blame no one but myself.
The two cardinal conditions that I started off with on coal utilisation to a certain extent overlap, but if your Lordships will bear with me I should like to go on to the first point; that is, that nationalised and private enterprise must be assured of a certain adequate supply of suitable coal at a competitive economic price. If one can take the figures of the chairman of the Seaborne Traders' Association as being accurate (I have no reason to suppose that they are not; but they are not official figures) one must point the finger of inquiry at the nationalised power industry. Many of their decisions were forced on them because my first consideration was not at that time being fulfilled by the National Coal Board—they probably could not fulfil it; I do not blame them, but am just stating the fact. The use of seaborne coal in the year 1958 has

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declined by about 4 million tons. It is normally about 28 million tons, and of this 21 million tons goes to the electricity authorities and the gas authorities, 5 million tons to private industry and 2 million tons to domestic users. I cannot believe that the last two categories of user, taking 7 million tons in all, have reduced their intake by 57 per cent. in one year. A large cut must be credited to the gas and electricity authorities.
It has been the Government's policy to convert the nationalised undertakings away from coal to oil; and here again I think there are palliatives that might possibly help and I should be glad if I could have some information on them. There are a certain number of oil-fired power stations which were originally built to burn pulverised fuel and are, or were, fully equipped to do so. The only one I know intimately is Little Brook Power Station, because the last job I did before the war as a junior engineer was to help put it up. That station at that time was fully equipped with grid moderators, coal-handling plant, pulverising plant and the rest. The difficulties of converting back and forth of a pulverised fuel furnace are relatively simple compared to those with other types of installation. Whether that station has been converted back I do not know, but I can see little justification for not doing it, because the whole installation is there—the jets, the lot. I do not know whether there are many other stations in that position, but that one certainly is.
There are also a number of coal-fired power stations projected and building in their early stages. My old firm is engaged on building one which I saw the other day. As a palliative, would it not be possible to design and build the coal-storage areas and some of the coal-handling plant at an early stage before you put the power station up? Instead of having coal dumped all around the pits, you could, at least, dump it there and sell it to the electricity authority who may use it three or four years hence. That might be worth consideration, because by so doing you would get a little bit back.
I am aware of the difficulty of oil company contracts, but I suggest that there is another approach to this problem—it may not be valid—and it is this. As I understand it, the Government or the power companies have contracted to take oil for
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a long time in a certain quantity. They have not contracted to burn that oil under their boilers. Why should not a portion of that oil be resold—you can bet your life the Government are getting it cheaply!—throughout industry, which is using the same type of oil in ever-increasing quantities, and the power stations go back to burning coal?
There are a few points to consider about this tragic sudden closing of pits. Unemployment to me is not just a dry figure. Some noble Lords know all about it, and I saw a little of it when I first started work. There is another category of person for whom I am sorry. There is the young collier whom you can move, but then there is the man who is living with his old retired parents, sometimes bed-ridden and sometimes invalid, and you cannot uproot them; they are retired, and the young chap must stay unemployed at his doomed pit. That is the type of case that can be multiplied. It distresses one to meet these cases, as one not infrequently does. Pits have to be closed, but surely, with a little forethought, it ought to be possible to close, for instance, a large pit down district by district and so soften the blow, sorting out those who must stay in the district and those who can be moved; and take longer over it. It is this sudden: "All right, chum, here's your chit", that is wrong, in my view. I am sure that that could be done.
On the question of prolonging the life of a mine which is more or less working out, I would ask whether the use of a sort of long-wall retreating underground gasification process to utilise the remaining coal there has been thoroughly investigated. This process, on which a great deal of work has been done, and I think successfully, requires a minimum amount of mining. That might be feasible, but I do not know; I am not an expert. You might, by planning ahead, produce sufficient work for your old people to see them out without disturbing them, and at the same time get in the form of gas the benefit of the unexhausted coal which it is uneconomic to work, and not resort to the gasification of oil. The same remarks apply possibly to methane drainage. The methane gas which is drained off in certain conditions is often too rich to use direct and has to be diluted. The gas

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you get from underground gasification is the reverse, and is rather weak. By mixing the two a palliative might be found. All I ask is that these things should be looked into by people who, unlike myself, know what they are talking about.
On the question of importing methane, natural gas, if you can get it virtually for nothing—it is waste product in the Middle East—I do not think you can be condemned. One has to admit that we must allow it as a source of power, even if it does compete with coal, if we can do so at a marked benefit in price. Otherwise I would say "No", because it does not help us at all to develop our own industry. Finally, I would make a plea for greater and more enthusiastic cooperation between the planning officials, the top-level union officials and the people who are using the products. I am sure that if everyone is taken into confidence all will see where they are going, and the public will get a little advance information.
6.30 p.m.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, speaker after speaker has done justice to my noble friend Lord Hall in the way that he has laid a foundation for this debate. With that characteristic gift of his, a gift which I sometimes envy, he can deal with mass statistics and lay outlines of thought in a way which few in this House can equal. I want to address myself to that part of his speech in which he asked for a fuel policy. The Minister may say that he has a policy, and the Government may think they have one; but so far as I can see there does not seem to be any policy at all to face the present situation. The matter is urgent, because this coal business has a nasty habit of turning back upon you suddenly when you least expect it.
For long years there was unemployment in the coal fields when other parts of the country were very prosperous. I must have brought hundreds of men down to the south of England in groups, skilled miners who had something like an affection for their own trade, but who had come down and been dispersed in the south, doing all kinds of odd jobs, because not only had the pits gone down but people in the industry and in their village had lost faith in the industry. If your
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Lordships can imagine a state of bankruptcy of faith at any time in the history of this country, that certainly prevailed in the mining areas. But before we knew where we were, war was upon us, and people in responsible positions were begging those of us who had some influence with the industry to use it to re-establish this faith.
I know some of the talk which goes on. It is said that with miners there is always trouble. That is quite natural. Coal has been the central form of power for the better part of two centuries. The coal industry employs, I believe, a greater number of the population than any other industry. We had to set about re-establishing that faith that had been lost, and if it had not been for a man like the late Ernest Bevin, who helped to devise the idea of what became known as the "Bevin Boys", I do not know what would have become of us. Those of us who know this business had a very difficult task to perform in re-establishing faith in this industry. There was an idea that just as you had given the miners the sack and sent them away from the area, so they could be brought hack. People talk about "digging coal". There is no such thing. A man serves a long apprenticeship in the great art of extracting coal. I was saying to my noble friend Lord Hall that I was about twelve years on the way from the shaft to the coalface, learning all the tasks there were to learn, before I was allowed to extract coal.
It is not a question of satisfying the oil kings. I am not blaming the Government any more than I blame anybody else, because I know the difficulty in which they have been placed. Somehow or other they have had to get the forms of power to meet the needs. But I think they are a bit slow in apprehending the problem now before them, because if you are not careful it is going to be the old old story—people will lose faith in their industry. Young men in a colliery are so closely identified with their industry that they have something like an affection for it. You can see them to-day. They have their proper miners' clothes and caps, and you can see the pride with which the youngsters go to work. They really feel as though they are somebody. I can see signs of their faith being broken again, as a colliery here and a colliery there are closed—it may be a long way from them,

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but it has its effect. If the father begins to see that there is nothing in a colliery for his son, then this country will soon find itself in great difficulty.
We are living in a disturbed world. I read the headlines as little as possible, because both the newspapers and the radio seem to make it their business to make us jump—and there is plenty to trade upon to do that. We may be in difficulties any day. None of us wants to see it, but in the world in which we live that possibility cannot be ruled out. If we got into difficulties we should have a repetition of the kind of thing we had at the beginning of the last war. It was a good thing in many ways that people came in from outside: we improved the education of the country to some extent, at any rate. I remember one man who came from London. He was a real, true blue Cockney. He took to mining, and in fact is now a mine manager. But that is a rare thing, and you will not get a second chance, so far as I can see, with a great industry like this, if once again men lose faith in it. All I rose to-night to say was that I charge the Minister of Power, who has lived and spent a good part of his life in that great industrial area in the North, to see that immediate attention is given to this matter of a policy for the Ministry of Power which will meet this problem. That is all I have to say upon that matter.
I may say that one of the speeches in this debate which I heard with very great pleasure was that of the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford. I heard him make his maiden speech in the other House—and a very good speech it was; but to-night he made a speech that was very understanding of the problem with which we are dealing. I liked his description of the rough-and-ready place he saw down below, where everything seemed chaos—for that is just what a pit is, unless the men there know their way around. But it is a place that is easy to abide in, and a place of order, so far as they are concerned. I hope that to-night's debate will have the result at any rate of bringing the Ministry of Power into contact with all the influences and all the powers which go to make up and supply the fuel and power for this country, so that we may avoid the very bad mistakes—and they were very bad and very bitter for some of us who saw them at first hand—that were made in the past; because as
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I say, coal has a dangerous way of turning back upon you again.
6.43 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, we all listened with very great pleasure to the speech of my noble friend, Lord Brent-ford. For him I hold a special affection because when I was a junior spokesman for his Ministry in this House he was one of the few Under-Secretaries who ever bothered to keep their junior spokesmen in the picture of what was going on.
We who have the welfare of the coal industry at heart must greatly regret the need for this debate, the general malaise which seems to have overcome the industry. Coal for a number of years has been a monopoly. I personally have nothing against monopolies, but a monopoly must satisfy certain conditions if it is going to get away with it with its consumers. It has to be able to produce the quality and quantity of the goods they require and at a price they think reasonable, and, above all, it must have good public relations, because a monopoly is always on the defensive against the charge of exploiting its consumers. I may say, in parenthesis, that if an industry is to contract, it is far easier to do this in the shape of monopoly industry than in any other, as we have seen in the case of cotton.
But I am sorry to say that the coal monopoly have singularly failed to satisfy any of these conditions, perhaps through no fault of their own. Until very recently quantity was rationed, the quality that was required was not often obtainable and the public relations of the Coal Board were by no means good. If only the Public Relations Department of the Coal Board had been able to put across to the general public the case that my noble friend Lord Brentford put this afternoon, the better educated the public would be, and how much more sympathetic to the Board! But they have just not been able to do it.
At the moment, as a result of the slight easing of demand in industry and the welling up of the consumption of oil, there is this surplus, perhaps temporary, and the consumers at long last are heaving a sigh of relief. They have had an anxious time for many years. But we are no nearer to the solution of the problem of price. In regard to this matter I am afraid the consumer must inevitably in his

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mind compare to-day's prices with what he used to pay before the war. The average cost of production in this country, according to the Reid Report, in 1938 was overall 16s. a ton; in 1957 it was 81s. 6d., and I think to-day it is probably a few shillings more. This average conceals, I think, a substantially larger proportion of the less valuable small coal. In 1957 23 per cent. was untreated smalls and 24 per cent. treated smalls. I have no figures of pre-war smalls but I do not think they were of that order of magnitude. As for extraneous matter, or dirt as the public call it, of course no figures can possibly exist, but the general opinion is that with mechanised mining far more dirt comes out of the pit and a very much larger proportion finds its way into the rail wagons than before the war.
As a result you can see from these costs that the cost of production has apparently increased about fivefold—rather more than fivefold; taking into account the quality and the larger proportion of dirt it may well be that the cost of production is six times that of pre-war for a similar article. We all know some of the technical answers to this—the thinner seams, the longer haulage—but there has been a great deal of money spent in investment, though the total for 1957 is still rather disappointingly low, £50 million. There are very big authorisations, sometimes, by Ministers in Parliament, but the actual task of modernisation depends on the spending of money on the spot, and sometimes they have not the engineers, and so on, to put the money to work.
The output per man-shift, according to the Reid Report, in 1936 was 1·17 tons, whereas in 1957 it is 1·23, a little increase; but considering the difference in dirt, and so on, probably the total of burnable matter was about the same, one ton per man-shift. The wages per man-shift in 1957 were £3. I have not been able to find any pre-war figures, but assuming that the proportion of labour costs to total costs was about the same as it is at the present moment, then the average cost per man-shift in labour charges before the war would have been about 11 s. 6d.; therefore to-day the labour charges are nearly six times as much per shift for winning a little more coal, but probably with more dirt in it.
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The consumers are not interested in figures of this sort; the only thing that interests them is the figure that they have to pay for coal when it reaches their coal shed. From my old accounts I find that in January, 1939, we paid 40s. 10d. for house coal and to-day Grade 3, which is about the corresponding grade of coal, is £10 10s. per ton in my part of the world. Likewise, in January, 1939, we paid 39s. 11d. for coke, and to-day, in my part of the world, coke costs £10 1s. 8d.—in other words, roughly five times the pre-war price, whereas the general price level is in the neighbourhood of three times the pre-war level. What does this show? It shows that, by and large, the coal industry's costs are about six times what they were before the war, and the retail selling prices which include transport, handling and so on, are about five times for a product which, on the average, is probably a little inferior, while prices for other things have gone up about three times.
In these circumstances, the consumers have reacted in the obvious way. To them, coal fuel over the last few years has been very dear. They have practised every economy and they have searched for substitutes. Industry has improved its boilers and insulated its buildings; transport has gone in for diesel fuel and for electricity, and all, including domestic consumers, have gone in on a far wider scale for oil. Five years ago it was rare to go into a house wired for electricity and to see a portable oil stove working; to-day it is common practice. This has come about through the improved patterns of oil-burning equipment, both the forced-draught burners in furnaces and the ordinary domestic convector heaters. I do not know whether it is correct, but I read somewhere that when the new building for the National Union of Mineworkers was designed it was the intention to have an oil fuel installation.
I hear that the oil industry is likely to be still more active in the future; they expect an increase in consumption. I have no official information—it is merely hearsay from conversations that I have had with people in American oil companies, who tell me that it is the general practice of American oil companies where possible to spend the proceeds of their oil in the country where they obtained

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those proceeds, on stores, equipment and so on. Doubtless British companies do the same. In that way the money spent on oil in this country tends to be translated into pipes, pumps, ships and so on, and provides employment here.
I have no brief at all for the oil industry, and one must always recognise at the back of one's mind that there are possibilities of international difficulties at any time, But what is the coal industry to do in face of this threat? I think the first important thing to do is to try to get the price of coke down. That would save a great deal of the conversion which is going on daily of domestic and public buildings from coke heating to oil heating. Then, the utmost should be done to extend the use of electricity, which is the only way of piping fuel to the home and is the only method of heating in regard to which coal has a clear march over oil. Incidentally, when it became a question the other day of converting our church system, I was most disappointed to see how uncompetitive was the electrical system as compared with oil. I should have thought that with a Sunday off-peak load, churches would be ideal mediums to which to give a cheap tariff.
This slight contraction in demand has come as a rude shock to the industry, but, as my noble friend Lord Brentford has pointed out, it is also an opportunity. Incidentally, as regards the stocks which appear to be accumulating, I came across a passage in Sir Winston's great book referring to a Minute which he wrote in 1940 or 1941, to the then Minister of Fuel—I think a Member of your Lordships' House at the time—praising him for filling the dumps all over the country. He said that they would surely be needed before long, and of course they were. I have a feeling that the consumption of fuel is going to go up.
We must recognise that in the nature of things mining is not a permanent industry in any one place. Mining depletes the deposits until they are finished or they are too expensive to work; there are plenty of "ghost" mining towns in the world to bear witness to that. I am sure that miners must realise that if they want to keep in mining the whole of their lives, it may well be that during the course of their lives they will have to move from one place to another. This gives an opportunity to the National
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Coal Board such as never occurred in the past to plan mining villages and towns in a really splendid way. When they are building houses for active mineworkers I suggest that they should keep an eye on the building of old people's homes for dependants in the same towns or villages. That covers the point made by my noble friend Lord Stonehaven. I am glad to see that the National Coal Board have what appeared to be a decent redundancy scheme when I read it in The Times. They must set themselves out to be a first-class employer. But it is vitally important to get on with the job of these modern pits arid the housing to accompany them, because that is the quickest way to get the cost per ton down.
I am glad to see that shaft sinking and road driving appears to be going rather faster than it used to do. I read somewhere that a South African team was in this country. I do not know whether or not they provided a stimulant in this matter. But in the final result the National Coal Board mist somehow lower its cost per ton mined or it will continue to lose ground. At the same time, I believe it would be a correct policy for the Government to use to the full in the power stations that large proportion of small coal which seems almost inevitably to come out of the new mines, particularly in the East Midlands. I suggest that wherever possible there should be dual fuelling in any new power stations. I hope that the depression will be to some degree a temporary one and that the consumption of fuel will again go up, but on the question of price a great deal depends on whether the National Coal Board are going to get their share of the expanding market.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, may I just remind the noble Lord that the cost of coal is lower in this country than in any other European country, and that the output per man-shift in this country is higher? On the latest figures I have seen, the British miner produces 1·6 tons in some of the best collieries, and at the present time the average is about 1·5 tons.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I am very glad to hear that the figure has gone up so much, compared with that given in the 1957 Report.
7.2 p.m.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, we are indebted to the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, for initiating this debate at such a timely and opportune moment. I feel that without doubt our main sources of fuel in the foreseeable future will be nuclear energy, oil and our basic fuel, coal, but with the drawback that of these three natural resources only nuclear energy is a renewable natural resource. As conflicting dates have been put out by experts as to when the world's non-renewable natural resources will be totally exhausted, I will not weary your Lordships with any figures in that respect. The fact remains, however, that world consumption of fuel is steadily increasing, which means, I believe, that we should not rely too implicity on imported oil but should practise fuel efficiency to a greater extent—a point which has been mentioned by several noble Lords this evening—for in the future our resources and reserves will become more and more inaccessible. In other words, apart from opencast coal mines, with their amenity problems, coal will be extracted at increasing depths so that, in spite of increased mechanisation in the pits, the price must continue to rise. This need for fuel efficiency may be the reason for the National Coal Board's closure of the previously mentioned thirty-six pits.
At this point I should like to speak of the great satisfaction with which I read a recent Press report to the effect that the 550 miners employed in the Cannock Chase No. 3 Pit will be given work at other Cannock mines. I sincerely hope, too, that ultimately the National Coal Board will be able to grant jobs to the 4,000 miners who are affected and are not being given jobs, and who will be receiving only six months' redundancy compention. For in spite of a recent Act, the Distribution of Industry (Industrial Finance) Act, which provides for a Government grants and loans scheme for factory expansion which may give certain factories a possibility to employ a number of miners, I feel (and here, I believe, I shall be supported by noble Lords who have great knowledge of the mining industry) that the miners' interest is mining. Many of them have devoted their lives to this arduous and heavy task, and I feel that many of them would not wish to be drafted into other industries. Coal is their livelihood.
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In many quarters it is said that oil is ousting coal. Not long ago I read in the Press that Sir James Bowman had said that the National Coal Board would go on spending annually £104 million to modernise the pits in order to compete with oil. It is my contention that one effective method would be to convert the surplus coal into oil. In that respect the booklet, Fuel Research, 1957, published by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, makes interesting reading, and I should like to quote a few words from page 13:
"The dependence of road and air transport in this country on imported petroleum products and the rapidly growing dependence of the gas, chemical and many other industries on such products emphasise the national importance of developing an economic process for converting coal into liquid and gaseous fuels.
A few years ago it was difficult to foresee the availability of coal for such a process, but with the rapidly developing use of nuclear energy it is now possible to envisage a future surplus of low-grade coal of the kind now consumed by power stations.… Studies of the economics of such a combined process "—
that is, gasification and synthesis—
"by the Ministry of Power have suggested that … economic success should be possible under present day conditions in the United Kingdom."
Another method could well be the taking of increased interest in the work of the British Coal Utilisation Research Association. Possibly greater encouragement could be given, too, by the National Coal Board to research and the production of small-scale automatically controlled equipment for smokelessly burning small coal in medium-sized boilers. Another question which could be looked into to a greater degree is the mechanical handling of smalls, particularly washed slacks, in view of their high moisture content.
I should like now to refer back to the question of obtaining oil from coal, and the previously mentioned D.S.I.R. publication, from which it would seem that Her Majesty's Government are relying to a large extent on a combination of gasification and synthesis reaction by catalysts, with a view, I presume, ultimately to producing liquid fuels and town gas from coal. In Scotland a German Lurgi plant has been installed for complete gasification and is solely producing town gas, whilst work undertaken by the D.S.I.R. Fuel Research Station is mainly centred

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around the German Fischer-Tropsch synthesis process. But, my Lords, there is in this country a synchronised gas combustion gasification or carbonization process.
I do not want to weary your Lordships with too many figures, but I should like to quote one or two comparative figures regarding Cannel coal, of which large quantities may be found in Scotland, and retorting, distilling small coal. With regard to Cannel coal in Scotland, there are in the Lothians 27½ million tons; in Lanarkshire 1¾ million tons; in Fifeshire 74½ million tons, and in Ayrshire 5½ million tons. Naturally these are approximate figures, and they apply only to Cannel coal with a yield of not less than about 40 gallons of crude oil per ton. One ton of Cannel coal will yield 40 gallons of crude oil; 1½ gallons of refined spirit; and the residue, combined with a quarter of a ton of Cannel coal or small coal, will give half a ton of smokeless block fuel. On the other hand, one ton of small coal will yield 10 to 12 gallons of fuel oil; approximately 4 gallons of spirit; and the residue, if combined with half a ton of small coal, will give one ton of smokeless block fuel.
I am advised that the price of this smokeless block fuel would be sufficiently low for it to be attractive to the industrial user, as well as to the domestic user. Out of a total consumption in 1957 of 213 million tons of coal, industry consumed 37½ million tons, and the domestic user only 36 million tons. So it might well be that there would be an extra requirement if the price were right, as I am advised it could well be.
Bearing in mind the two problems which affect us most to-day, that of miner redundancy and the question of excessive coal stocks, I should like to ask the noble Lord the Minister, with great respect, whether he would consider setting up—or advising the Coal Board to set up—a small pilot plant which I feel would be the first step towards producing in this country a large amount of fuels from coal. The object would be to reduce the alarming size of the coal stocks—two-thirds of which I believe are above ground, the other one-third having been thrown hack into the pits—and also to provide work for the redundant miners, in areas in which they are used to working, handling a raw material which was described, in the words of a Govern-
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ment spokesman, the Paymaster General, on December 3 last in another place, as a raw material which
"will continue to be in the future as it is now, the greatest source of energy for the British economy".
Finally, again with great respect to the Minister, I would suggest. that possibly Lanarkshire, with its 1,795 redundant miners, of whom I believe only one-third are to be offered alternative jobs, with its stocks of small coal, its deposits of Cannel coal and its £50 million steel project, might well be a satisfactory area in which to set up such a scheme.
7.15 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF POWER (LORD MILLS): My Lords, I should like first to say how much I have welcomed this debate. It is fitting to recall that about a year ago, on February 5, we had a debate in your Lordships' House initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, on the development and use of our fuel and power resources. I think that these debates—and I like to think they are fairly frequent—are very helpful and very useful. This debate was to call attention to the national fuel and power policy; and, naturally, it has concentrated very greatly on the question of coal. But the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, reminded us that we were debating the national fuel and power policy of the Government, even though he thought the Government had not got one! I should like to refer to the maiden speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford, which I found as informative as it was helpful, and I congratulate him upon it.
I think it would be well to explain to your Lordships the Government's general fuel and power policy and the reasons upon which it is based. Perhaps I could first of all remind your Lordships of the Ministry of Fuel and Power Act, and of my responsibilities under it. That Act charges the Minister with the duties of
"… securing the effective and co-ordinated development of coal, petroleum and other minerals and sources of fuel and power in Great Britain … and of promoting economy and efficiency in the supply, distribution, use and consumption of fuel and power, whether produced in Great Britain or not".
The nationalised industries—coal, gas, electricity—have powers and duties prescribed by Parliament in their basic Statutes; and those industries, together with the privately-owned oil industry, are

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the means of providing our fuel requirements.
The enunciation of fuel policy goes back to the year 1951 when the Trades Union Congress and the Federation of British Industries jointly approached the then Government and urged them to adopt a "positive national fuel policy". They were concerned about the inadequate production of coal and the inefficient ways in which it was consumed. They thought that unless special measures were taken to economise in the use of fuel, future years would bring critical shortages and dangers to the national economy as a whole as fuel requirements increased faster than fuel supplies. In response to that approach, the then Government appointed, in July, 1951, a Committee on National Fuel Policy, under the Chairmanship of Lord Ridley. In their Report, which was a very full one, the Committee made some forty major and specific recommendations, most of which have in one way or another been implemented. But they did take the view that
"intervention by the central Government through administrative orders to improve the pattern of fuel use would be ineffective",
and they gave their reasons. Those reasons were many, but in the main the Committee argued that the relative advantages of different fuels could not be positively and generally established, even for specific services.
Current Government policy follows the general lines endorsed by the Ridley Committee, maintaining a lively and proper competition between the different fuels—because competition is important as a stimulus to efficiency, and because efficiency in the supply of fuel is both necessary and important for increasing productivity, expanding national production, and keeping down costs. We take the view that the individual consumer should be free to choose what he considers the most efficient and the cheapest fuel for his particular purpose, for he is best able to judge, with whatever advice he may care to take, what suits him best. This policy, however, does not imply one of complete non-intervention in the pattern of fuel supply and use. A general oversight is exercised over the work and planning of the nationalised fuel industries, with a considerable measure of
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control over their borrowing powers and capital investments. We also seek to promote co-operation between the different industries wherever we can see fruitful but unexploited possibilities.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am not quite sure whether I am following the noble Lord in regard to this co-operation. There are only two main descriptions of policy in these matters. The noble Lord started with competition as being practically the essential stimulus and life-thread. Then he went on to co-operation—although between what industries I am not quite sure. I feel rather anxious, however, because the words of John Ruskin have been with me all my life. Competition is death, not life. Only co-operation is life.
LORD MILLS: Competition can well be associated with co-operation, and I will give the noble Viscount two examples of what I have in mind. One of them has been mentioned. It was the Scottish Gas Board's decision to go ahead with the construction of the Lurgi plant in Fife, Scotland. That was for the total gasification of poor quality coal, and that stemmed from close co-operation between the National Coal Board and the gas industry. It is something of which we shall, I am sure, be proud. Large—very large—shallow reserves of non-coking coals will be here gasified to produce town's gas at costs competitive with gas from conventional gas works. Another plant of a similar kind will be constructed by the West Midlands Gas Board to use deep-mined poor quality coal. Second, as a result of co-operation between the refineries and the gas industry, arrangements have been made for surplus products from refineries—a new source of supply—to be delivered to gas works and processed into town's gas.
VISCOUNT HALL: Could I ask the noble Lord—and if he has not the answer now, perhaps he will let me have it—whether he could give an account of the cost of the surplus products from the refineries in relation to the gas supplied by them, compared with the cost of coal?
LORD MILLS: I will gladly supply the noble Viscount with that information. The arrangements have been made on a commercial basis. The extra supplies of

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gas were needed, the kind of coal necessary was in short supply, and the arrangements were made at an economic price. I will, however, let the noble Viscount have full particulars.
As I say, the Government's general fuel policy is to maintain competition between the fuel industries (and here I might say that competition can be life as well as death—and in well-managed affairs it is generally life) as a means of securing their greater efficiency, while at the same time encouraging co-operation between them wherever it is likely to prove economically worthwhile. I think that such a policy helps to give the consumer what I think he ought to have, namely, the opportunity to make an enlightened choice.
The policy I have just enunciated has been practised and followed in conditions of fuel shortage when the main problem was how to make the best use of scarce supplies—including, I would remind your Lordships, large tonnages of coal imported at high cost in hard currencies. But at present most fuels are in easy supply. That is not a condition applying solely to this country but is a consequence of the plans for safeguarding and advancing energy supplies—which must necessarily be of a long-term nature—being overtaken by a setback in world trade and the production requirements of fuel in each country.
The question I have to answer is whether, in view of the fact that fuel is at present in easy supply—and, in the case of coal, in surplus—it would be wise to take a different view of my duty of promoting economy and efficiency in the supply, distribution, use, and consumption of fuel and power, whether produced in Great Britain or not. I believe I should not take a different view. It should be remembered that the basis of a thriving and progressive economy is the supply of cheap and abundant power. That should continue to be our aim.
It is indeed necessary to take into account all the many factors influencing the provision and use of fuel and power in our requirements for production, for transport and for our general needs and comfort. Let us take a backward look at fuel requirements over the ten years since 1947: they have risen by over one-fifth. The use of electricity has almost doubled; use of gas is slightly up; use of
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oil has doubled; but the consumption of coal, excluding that required for the production of secondary fuels, has declined. Coal is our only major indigenous fuel and therefore there is a proper anxiety to see it used to the fullest possible extent. It employs a great labour force, most of whom have spent their lives in the industry and who deserve all the consideration which can be given to their well-being. I believe the National Coal Board are putting their policies into effect having full regard to that need.
Coal still provides the bulk of our fuel requirements—over 200 million tons a year—and is largely the product from which electricity and gas are made available, as well as being the source of an increasing number of chemical products. Here I should like to reply to the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale. The Government, the nationalised industries and private industry are all working on the technical and economic problems involved in expanding existing uses and finding new uses for coal in the form of gas, chemicals or oil. I have great hopes that as time goes on this very important work of research and development will create a variety of new demands upon our indigenous coal resources. I have recently asked my Ministry's Scientific Advisory Council, under the leadership of Sir Alexander Fleck, to study and urge the possibilities of this research to expand the use of coal.
But, my Lords, we have seen the general use of coal declining, due in some measure to its rising cost, and because the expense and labour of handling it contrast unfavourably in many fields with the relative stability of price, ease of handling, and cleanliness of oil. It was not until 1957, however, that stocks began to accumulate, and in that year it was in a relatively small way. It was decided immediately to stop ordering more coal from abroad, and no further contracts were entered into. This was followed by the decision last year to end coal rationing and to restore freedom to buy to the consumer. At the beginning of that year, the Coal Board, ever mindful of the position of the miner (and I believe and say this sincerely), decided to curtail recruitment to the industry, to cease voluntary arrangements for working extra hours—which meant the ending of Saturday

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working—and to increase stocks in order to continue employment for those in the industry.
At this time the Board's financial position was not a very happy one, and the cost of stocking coal added to their difficulties. It was not practicable to advance their prices against the competition of other fuels. There was also a general feeling in the country, which has been mentioned by noble Lords this afternoon, that prices were high enough. But the Coal Board and the men worked together to reduce costs, and the output per man-shift began to turn upwards. Consumption, however, was still on a descending scale, and it became necessary for the Board to review the position for the current year. On the basis that consumption would fall to 200 million tons, they proposed to the National Union of Mineworkers, who, I am told, took an even gloomier view, that opencast mining should be cut by some 25 per cent.—that is by about 3 million tons; that certain pits should be closed down over the year to a capacity of 3 million tons, and that it would probably prove necessary to stock a further 3 million tons this year. The pits which are due for closing are high-cost collieries which are either nearing exhaustion or, because of their nature, quite uneconomic to work in present circumstances. The Union is co-operating in movements designed to lessen the impact on the miners concerned.
Because of this present excess of supply over demand for coal in this country, it has been strongly urged that the Government should now take special measures of three kinds: further reduce the production of opencast coal; restrict the increasing use of oil fuel, and scale down the national programme for the development of nuclear energy. The Government are fully alive to the social and human problems, and to the other adverse factors resulting from unemployment among coal miners. They also realise—and I would ask your Lordships to be good enough to bear this in mind—that if the coal industry's manpower fell beyond what was necessary to produce the annual coal supply needed when industrial production resumes its upward trend, we could again face embarrassing fuel shortages of the same order that arose in the early postwar years. I should like to stress the point that the present state of industrial
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production is a temporary phase, and that we can look forward to the early resumption of an upward trend, with the increasing demands for fuel supplies, particularly coal, which would accompany it.
As regards opencast coal production, as I have said, the National Coal Board plan to reduce output by 3 million tons this year, although this is the most profitable part of their coal production. They cannot go further without breaking their contracts with an industry which holds special civil engineering plant to a value of no less than £27 million for the purpose of winning opencast coal. In going so far as a reduction of 3 million tons the Coal Board, as your Lordships will appreciate, are deliberately adding to their financial difficulties in the interests of deep-mined coal. In further consideration of this problem I need hardly say that the Government will keep in mind not only the needs of the situation but the agricultural and amenity aspects of the matter.
It is certainly a fact that the continued substitution of oil fuel for coal is a major factor reducing the demand for coal at the present time. Oil now supplies 15 per cent. of our total fuel consumption, as compared with 7 per cent. before the war. But the Government are firmly of the opinion that this is not a ground for restricting the use of oil. There are many reasons for that view, of which I will mention only three. First, it would be quite inconsistent with our general fuel policy, which I have endeavoured to describe to-day, and it would tend to raise the costs, or reduce the efficiency, of all those intersts which have chosen to use oil.
VISCOUNT HALL: All the interests which are using oil? Does that mean for generating electricity?
LORD MILLS: I am going to speak about that. Secondly, to restrict oil imports would be contrary to the Government's general policy of removing restrictions on international trade. Thirdly, we should never forget that British companies play a very large part in the world oil trade, and that their net earnings abroad—including exports from the great modern refineries built in this country, primarily to meet inland oil demand by refining imported crude oil—are an important contribution to our foreign exchange earnings.
LORD LAWSON: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but do I understand that statement to mean that there is going to be no interference with the growing amount of oil that is coming into the country?
LORD MILLS: The noble Lord understands correctly. We should be in danger of reducing this great credit item in the country's balance of payments if we re-restricted oil and our example were followed abroad. The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, referred to the fact that imports of these products worth £65 million were made to this country and that exports of £30 million were made to Europe. The noble Viscount seemed to think there was something wrong in that.
VISCOUNT HALL: I do not think I could have made myself clear. I said that the import of diesel, gas and fuel oil amounted to about £65 million. Out of that £65 million, imports from Italy, France, Germany and the Netherlands amounted to about £30 million. I said that I wondered where the oil came from, seeing that they were not oil-producing countries.
LORD MILLS: I think there is something wrong there. We import crued oil, diesel oil, fuel oil and other kinds of oil, and we have a great export business of that oil which is of considerable value to this country. I think the noble Viscount's interpretation of what he saw must he at fault. We do not, I think, import from Italy and those other countries; they import from us.
VISCOUNT HALL: I will show the figures to the noble Lord later.
LORD MILLS: The decision to convert a number of power stations from the consumption of coal to oil has attracted a great deal of adverse criticism. Oil conversion was decided upon early in 1955 when coal consumption was outrunning production and no guarantee could be given that coal could be made available in sufficient quantities to meet the expanding power station programme. It is well to bear in mind that this situation—that is, of consumption outrunning production—continued in 1956, when deep-mined coal production was some 300,000 tons lower than in 1955, although home demand had increased by more than 3,200,000 tons. To look
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back to 1955, when the decision to carry out a programme of conversion to oil was taken, it is clear that the country was acutely short of coal and the balance had to be made up by large imports of expensive coal costing hard currency. There was no prospect of ending this situation quickly, and, as things then looked, it was a sensible policy to convert power stations to oil.
VISCOUNT HALL: I am sorry to trouble the noble Lord, but we exported about 10 million tons of coal in 1955, for which we received £65 million. We started stocking coal in 1956. Apart from the distributed coal, we stocked about 3 million tons of coal undistributed in 1956.
LORD MILLS: The stocking of coal beyond any figure which was really necessary did not start until 1957. Be that as it may, I am sure the noble Viscount will appreciate that the question of exports involves questions of contracts, and imports also involve questions of contracts. In fact, when I announced in our debate of February 5 of last year that we had succeeded in getting a reduction in some of the oil contracts, the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 207, col. 450]:
"We must adapt ourselves to this new situation. The Minister of Power and the Central Electricity Authority have acted on the right lines in taking the decision that the use of oil fuel in power stations is to be less than originally planned, and that two, if not three, of the stations which were to be oil-fired are now to be coal-fired. No blame should attach to the Government or the Central Electricity Authority for this change, because in 1955, when the decision was taken to switch from coal, they had the full support of the Opposition at that time because there were serious difficulties over coal."
I was not here at that time, but I could only assume that everybody was in agreement that that was the right thing to do. But early in 1957, when the easing of demand for coal became evident, we took immediate steps to secure the agreement of the oil companies to vary the terms of their existing contracts to enable us to scale down the conversion programme. The result will be that oil used at power stations will year by year fall substantially after 1960, instead of rising, as in the original programme. Here I should like to pay a tribute to the great cooperation we received in these matters from the oil companies, who have

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voluntarily amended the terms of the firm contracts they held.
LORD GREENHILL: And it will be replaced by coal?
LORD MILLS: It will be replaced by coal.
LORD GREENHILL: Not by nuclear power?
LORD MILLS: No, it will be replaced by coal. I should like to add this. I have found the oil companies co-operative, and if we can do anything more without breaking contracts your Lordships can be assured that we will act.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, may I trouble the noble Lord by saying that I am sure that his statement will be received with great gratitude?
LORD MILLS: The suggestion has been made that the use of oil at gas works in place of coal should not now be developed whether in the form of oil gasification plant, the use of liquid methane, or the utilisation of surplus products from oil refineries. I do not think that that is a view we can accept.
Let me deal first with the question of liquid methane. That is only an experiment. It is a tiny shipment in a small vessel, just to see what are the technical possibilities and the economics of the matter. I think it would be quite contrary to our general fuel policy to deny to any industry the opportunity to test the possibilities of increasing their fuel efficiency. At the same time, the gas industry will pursue with vigour the improvement of their utilisation of their traditional raw material, coal, and will in particular continue and intensify their present researches, which are widespread, into economic methods of utilising for gas making the lower grades of coal of which we have an abundance.
Now, my Lords, I come to the nuclear power programme. It has been urged that the nuclear power programme should be reduced so as to increase the market for small coal. I am sorry to hear that suggestion seriously entertained. I said earlier that the basis of a thriving and progressive economy is the supply of cheap and abundant power. We must not forget that certain other countries
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possess cheap power derived from more accessible sources of coal, from domestic oil, from natural gas and from water power resources.
Thanks to the work of our scientists and engineers, we found ourselves leading the world in the use of nuclear power to generate electricity. The practical way of making use of that lead was to develop an industry ever advancing in the applications of nuclear energy by designing and supplying reactors and associated engineering works. This we decided upon, and the result will be to cheapen the capital and operating costs, to the ultimate benefit of users of electricity, which means to the benefit of our world competitive power. I am sure, too, that that decision enabled us to start the export of nuclear power works—the beginning of which I witnessed in Italy a few weeks ago. Should we abandon the maximum advantages to be gained from this great achievement because we have had to stock a relatively small percentage of coal to lessen the impact on the industry of a reduced demand brought about to a great extent by world conditions?
I can, if your Lordships wish it, give you some figures this evening or let you have them later, but the tendency is for the construction and operating costs to come down. It is true that great improvements have been made in power stations operated by coal, but we shall reach a stage when the cost of nuclear power will really justify the faith we are giving to it.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Does that mean that the Minister is forecasting that the nuclear production of power will be cheaper than production by coal?
LORD MILLS: It is forecast that it will eventually, but not in these first stations.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: It has not happened yet anywhere.
LORD MILLS: It is being reduced now. The third station will cost less per kilowatt than the first two stations, and that is the tendency.
I trust that your Lordships will agree that, faced with a surplus of coal for the first time since the war, there has been no tendency on the part of the Government, or of the National Coal Board, to

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stand idly by and let things drift. Positive measures have been decided upon and followed, and have been discussed with the trade unions. These measures have had regard not only to the national requirements, but also to the well-being and the future of the coal industry and of those employed in it. The courses we have not pursued—and I make no apology, believing that none of us would wish it—are to break contracts or to forfeit the great advantages we are gaining in the nuclear power field.
I have not yet dealt with a number of points raised in the debate because I did not want to confuse the general picture of our policy in regard to fuel. I now propose to take a few minutes of your Lordships' time and do my best to answer the specific questions addressed to me.
VISCOUNT HALL: Before the noble Lord does that, may I say this? I do not know that I suggested that there should be a complete closing down of production by nuclear power. What I did suggest was that the time for this programme could be extended to 1970 or 1975, because I thought that even now the nuclear power is really in its experimental stage, as I attempted to say.
LORD MILLS: My Lords there are many things to be weighed up in considering a matter of that kind. In fact it has had continuous consideration because I realise that our fuel policy must be a flexible one. It has actually been extended by a year; that was done last year. And the equivalent amount of coal would not be 20 million tons but 12 to 14 million tons, which is rather a big difference. Perhaps I could take this opportunity of correcting that. We will continue to watch the matter. It is all bound up, as your Lordships appreciate, with the need to keep the industry moving forward. If one started to chop and change, one would soon have the industry ragged and unable to co-operate in the way one would wish it to co-operate.
The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, mentioned the question of exports, and that presents a rather sad picture. The Coal Board are doing their best. They have been up against three factors. One is the long-term American contracts entered into at a time when we were not able to supply; secondly, there has been com-
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petition from cheap Polish coal, and thirdly most countries are in a similar condition to ourselves, carrying rather large stocks of coal. But the Coal Board have not hesitated to cut their prices where they have had any opportunity of doing business.
I think I have replied already to the question on liquid methane. That is just an experiment. The noble Viscount, Lord Hall, also mentioned the question of briquettes, as did the noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven. There are various kinds of briquettes. There are conventional briquettes and production is limited by what the market will take. They are made from ordinary fine coal agglomerated with pitch; they are expensive; they are not smokeless, and not very satisfactory. Phurnacite is a smokeless fuel and the production of that has been increased to 600 thousand tons a year. There were some stocks built up in the summer, but the whole of the make is currently being sold. It is a high-quality fuel especially suitable for closed domestic appliances.
I was also asked about the question of Shape. Shape was very promising in its experimental stages; efforts to translate it into full-scale production have had certain setbacks, but they are proceeding. Shape is the process of binding anthracite together without a binder. There are also a number of other processes which are being followed. I think I have dealt with the question of nuclear power. I only want to say that as regards some of the developments in this field, such as the fast breeder reactor, of the type being constructed at Dounreay, any practical results are probably ten or fifteen years away; and from Zeta probably still further. But they are all very promising developments, and what we are doing in the nuclear field helps in these matters too.
Then there was a question raised on the subject of shipping. I understand that there are conferences going on between the British Chamber of Shipping, the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation and the Ministry of Power. The Chamber of Shipping has submitted an appreciation of the situation which is being fully considered. We have that point very carefully in mind, and of course the switch from coal to oil has had an adverse effect on the situation. I can only say that

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what has been said this afternoon, as well as the representation made by the Chamber of Shipping, will be urgently and fully considered. Bath the noble Viscount, Lord Runciman of Doxford, and the noble Lord, Lord Winster, raised those points.
The noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, raised the question about small coal, and asked what was the position in view of the fact that still more small coal would be produced. The largest user of small coal, of course, is the electricity industry. In 1958, the consumption of small coal by power stations was about ¼ million tons lower than in 1957. That was due to the phasing of the oil conversion programme, but the upward trend is likely to be resumed in the course of this year and to go on continuing as far ahead as we can see. The major part of the power station construction up to the end of 1963 will be conventional power stations, and as they come into use the consumption of coal will be increased.
I should like to say a word about gasification, as it was mentioned. The position there is this. In 1955 my Scientific Advisory Council recommended that the successful experimental work on underground gasification which was then done jointly by the Ministry and the Coal Board should be carried forward on a larger scale. This the Board undertook to do. They are now completing a pilot gas generating installation at Newman Spinney near Chesterfield, and within the next few weeks it is hoped that gas from this installation will be generating electricity in a small, temporary power station erected there by the Central Electricity Generating Board. It is intended that electricity will be generated for a sufficient period to show that the pilot scheme has been successfully completed.
However, the fuel situation is much more favourable now than when this work was put in hand, and because of this it is most unlikely that it will be carried forward to a full scale plant. It is a most creditable achievement by all those concerned in the development of this technique, who brought it to a stage which, should the fuel situation change,
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would allow us to take it up again and perhaps bring it into full-scale use. But that is not a solution of anything at this time. On that point, the Generating Board programme for 1958 to 1963 will provide new installed capacity of 12,800 megawatts, and of this 10,730 megawatts will be steam driven—the bulk of it is steam. New coal-fired capacity will comprise 17 new stations and three extensions consuming some 25 to 30 million tons of coal a year when in operation.
I am just giving your Lordships this information to show that anything we can do in order to promote the use of coal is being done, and that the use of oil in power stations was on the basis that it would cost no more. The results show that it is not costing any more. All the same, it is our desire to the fullest extent we can without breaking contracts, to use coal in those stations. I think I have said enough to show our anxiety in the matter. I am painfully conscious that there are a number of detailed questions that I have not answered, particularly from the noble Viscount, Lord Stone-haven, but, if he will forgive me, I will see that he is supplied with the answers, and that everybody who has asked a question gets an answer. I think that in view of the lateness of the hour, perhaps that is the best course to take.
8.15 p.m.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, I feel that I should apologise for keeping your Lordships here for so long. We are deeply grateful to the Minister for his full replies to the questions that have been put to him. I am sure that his speech will be read with a good deal of interest by everyone who is interested in the fuel programme, or indeed fuel of any kind in this country. I should also like to thank noble Lords who joined in the debate. I think the debate has been well worth while. I would congratulate Lord Brentford upon his speech. I heard his maiden speech which was made when the Commons sat in this Chamber. We are most grateful to the Minister for his reply. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
BOOTLE CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
CALVINISTIC METHODIST ORPRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OF WALES (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUSPOWERS) BILL [H.L.]
FALMOUTH DOCKS BILL [H.L.]
GLAMORGAN COUNTY COUNCILBILL [H.L.]
GLOUCESTERSHIRE COUNTYCOUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
HALIFAX CORPORATION BILL[H.L.]
JOSEPH ROWNTREE MEMORIALTRUST BILL [H.L.]
LANCASTER CORPORATION BILL[H.L.]
LEE VALLEY WATER BILL[H.L.]
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL(GENERAL POWERS) BILL [H.L.]
MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
MILFORD HAVEN (TIDAL BARRAGE) BILL [H.L.]
RAILWAY CLEARING SYSTEM SUPERANNUATION FUND BILL [H.L.]
ROUND OAK STEEL WORKS (LEVEL CROSSINGS) BILL [H.L.]
ROYAL WANSTEAD SCHOOL BILL[H.L.]
SOUTH WALES TRANSPORT BILL[H.L.]
TEES CONSERVANCY BILL [H.L.]
THAMES CONSERVANCY BILL[H.L.]
Presented, and read 1a.

  NEW STRIP MILL IN SCOTLAND
  NEW STRIP MILL IN SCOTLAND