Sitting of 20 January 1959

Preamble
The House—after the Adjournment on 18th December, 1958, for the Christmas Recess—met at half-past Two o'clock.
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
DEATH OF A MEMBER
Mr. Speaker: I regret to have to inform the House of the death of John Hamilton Mackie, esquire, Member for Galloway, and I desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the hon. Member.
NEW WRIT
Mr. Speakeracquainted the House that he had issued, during the Adjournment, a Warrant for a new Writ for Southend, West, in the room of Sir Henry Channon, deceased.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MALTA

    Constitution
    Mr. Croninasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many seats were held in the Malta Legislative Assembly between 1951 and 1953 by the Progressive Constitutional Party and by the Constitutional Party, respectively.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd): It was the Constitutional Party, and not the Progressive Constitutional Party, that held four seats in the Maltese Legislative Assembly between 1951–1953;. The Progressive Constitutional Party was not formed until October, 1953, after the dissolution of the Assembly. I regret that I unintentionally misled the House in my reply to the hon. Member on 27th November, 1958, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving me this opportunity of putting the matter right.
    Mr. Cronin: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that it is fully understood that it was a slip of the tongue and that his explanation is entirely satisfactory?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much.
    Mr. Croninasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what advice he has been given by the representatives of the Progressive Constitutional Party whom he invited to the talks which have been taking place in London on the future of Malta.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The Progressive Constitutional Party has, since its return to Malta, publicised the views which it expressed to me at the Conference. I am arranging for a full record of these views to be sent to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Cronin: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the political status of the Progressive Constitutional Party is and always has been negligible, and that by inviting this party he caused the talks to be abortive from the outset and has

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    laid himself open to the possible accusation that he invited the members of the party as yes-men?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not himself give currency to such a view. That was not the reason why the talks proved abortive. It was interesting to hear as much as I could of the differing views with regard to the future of Malta.
    Mr. Bevan: Were not the views known beforehand? They have been very voluble about their views for years, but failed to convince any Maltese about them.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: They were invited to give evidence before the body of which the right hon. Gentleman was himself a distinguished member.
    Mr. Bevan: Everyone who wanted to give evidence was invited to do so.
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement about the constitutional future of Malta.
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the new constitutional arrangements in Malta.
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will now make a statement about the constitutional future of Malta.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I invite attention to the statement issued from the Colonial Office on 5th January and to a broadcast made on the same day by the Governor of Malta to the Maltese people, copies of which I have had placed in the Library.
    I have nothing to add at present, but I shall give the House further details on the Second Reading of the Bill referred to in the statement of 5th January.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that, despite recent events and present difficulties, it is the desire of the Maltese people and of the British people to remain together under the Crown?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Yes, I believe that to be quite true.
    Mr. Brockway: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is now clear that
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    no representative Maltese will serve on the proposed nominated council which he intends to set up? Does he wish Malta to become another Cyprus, which it would be but for the fact that the Maltese have adopted methods of non-violent resistance? Why should not they have in 1962 the independence that they claim?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: If the hon. Gentleman read carefully the statement from my office and the Governor's broadcast, and will also await the speech that I shall make on the Second Reading of the Bill, he will find most of his questions answered.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Since the Press announcement we have had indicates that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to bring legislation before the House by which the constitution of Malta which was suspended will, I presume, be ended and there will be established a Colonial Government with a council, and since it is clear already that no real representative of the Maltese people will join the Governor's council, we shall soon be back to emergency powers again, with all that that means in our relationships with Malta. Will he not now postpone, if not abandon, the proposal to bring forward a Bill of this kind, and try to introduce an interim constitution such as was discussed earlier, rather than create a situation in which emergency powers will again be introduced in Malta and relations with the Maltese badly damaged?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The right hon. Gentleman would be well advised to await my speech on the Second Reading of the Bill, when I shall deal with all those points. With regard to the Governor's council, I would point out that the public-spirited people in the country are not necessarily strong party partisans.
    Mr. Griffiths: In an island in which only two parties are represented in the Legislative Council, and since both parties have declared that they will not cooperate on the Governor's council, it is clear that the only representatives will be those who have never stood a chance of being elected to the Legislative Council at all.
    Mr. Croninasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what form of responsibility Her Majesty's Government proposed to retain for assuring the independence of the police and the public

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    services and their protection from victimisation in the new constitution which he was prepared to discuss with the three Maltese political parties in London last November.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: It had been intended to bring Malta into line with other advanced territories as regards safeguarding the independence of the police and the public service from political interference, by setting up a Public Service and Police Commission or Commissions.
    The power to appoint, promote, transfer, dismiss and exercise disciplinary control over public officers and members of the police would have been vested in the representative of the Crown in Malta, who would have exercised it, with certain exceptions, on the recommendations of the Commission or Commissions.
    In addition, for the time being constitutional responsibility for the police would have been vested in the Crown's representative and this would have been subject to review.
    Mr. Cronin: Could not the police and public services have been safeguarded by simpler methods, such as obtaining undertakings from the parties concerned? Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that it would be impossible for any responsible political party in Malta to take office with even more powers reserved to the Crown?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I very greatly wish that that had been possible, but if the hon. Gentleman casts his mind back to last April, he will remember some of the threats which were made against individual policemen. As a result of that, I felt it necessary to issue a statement about the protection of these officers and others from victimisation. I hoped that such a situation would not continue for a long period. As I say, the matter is subject to review, but in putting forward our proposals I felt it essential that the constitutional responsibility for the police should be vested in the Crown's representative for the time being.

  KENYA

    Multi-Racial School
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will give details of the plans announced by the
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    specially elected members of the Kenya Legislative Council to build a multi-racial secondary school for boys between the ages of 12 and 18 years.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Julian Amery): I understand that these plans are still at an early stage and I am not in a position to give details.
    Mr. Johnson: Would not both sides of the House welcome this step forward in multi-racial education? Can the Minister say whether the African Members—they are the African elected Members of the Legislative Council—have made any statement about this and what their feelings are about it?
    Mr. Amery: I have no information on that point, but I would like to join in what the hon. Gentleman has said in welcoming this initiative.

    Constitution
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what decision has been made on the proposals of the elected African, Asian and Arab groups in the Kenya Legislative Council that a round table conference should consider constitutional changes.
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what constitutional developments he has in mind for Kenya in view of the opposition of the African, Asian and Arab communities to the present constitution.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse) and other hon. Members on 27th November last.
    Mr. Brockway: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that more than three months have passed since that reply and that the situation in Kenya is becoming more and more serious? When all the elected groups, except the European group, ask for a constitutional conference, surely the Government should respond by discussing these serious matters with them.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I think the hon. Gentleman knows that my dispatch invited the African Members to enter into discussions with the Governor and then with the other groups so as to create a basis for mutual understanding. The

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    Governor told me, and repeated it to me personally last night in London, that he has invited the African Members to come and see him informally after his return to Kenya, and I hope that they will agree to do so. I cannot, however, accept the idea that a formal conference should now be convened to reconsider the fundamentals of the present constitution.
    Mr. Stonehouse: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to look at this matter again? If 99 per cent. of the population in Kenya, through their elected representatives, ask for round table talks, surely they are entitled to have them, and surely the mutual understanding to which the right hon. Gentleman refers would be better achieved in that way.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I think the hon. Gentleman knows too much about the matter to get away with that question, if I may say so. He knows quite well that last year I did my best to bring about such a round table conference. It was not possible, and therefore I had to impose a settlement. I do not think a formal conference should be convened to reconsider the fundamentals of that settlement, but none the less I hope that the talks which I have mentioned will take place.
    Mr. Bottomley: Will not the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his decision? This is an important matter. There is now a conflict between all the other peoples in Kenya and the Europeans. This will grow and it will be impossible to have a conference. We shall have another Cyprus or Malta on our hands. As my hon. Friends have suggested, will not the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his decision not to convene a conference?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: No, Sir.

    Prisons and Detention Camps
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will arrange an independent inquiry into conditions in prisons and detention camps in Kenya in view of the allegations of ill-treatment, which have not been officially refuted.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Such an inquiry was held early in 1957 by a delegation of the International Committee of the Red Cross, which gave the Press its considered opinion that all was being done to respect the international principles
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    accepted in the custody of detainees and convicts. Investigation of allegations made since then has not justified the Governor setting up a further inquiry.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the Colonial Secretary aware that there have been allegations from the Lokitaung Prison in Northern Kenya and independent allegations also by Captain Law, a European now in this country, who has spoken about ill-treatment in the Kamiti Prison? Is he aware that these allegations are causing a great deal of concern which will not be dispelled unless there is an independent inquiry into the administration of prisons in the Territory?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I do not think that is altogether fair. The Governor, the Government of Kenya and I have been scrupulous in following up every charge which has been made. In the vast majority of cases, they have been either untrue or greatly distorted.

    Detained Persons
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the total number of Africans in detention camps in Kenya on the latest convenient date; and how many have been detained four years, or longer, without trial.
    Mr. J. Amery: There were 3,932 persons detained under Emergency Regulations in Kenya on 31st December, 1958. I am asking the Governor if he can provide information on the second part of the Question, and I will circulate a further reply in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the Minister aware that most of these detainees, nearly 4,000, have been imprisoned without trial for more than four years? Is this not a disgraceful state of affairs? Is not the Mau Mau emergency virtually at an end, and is he not aware that very many of these prisoners and detainees have, in fact, been acquitted of charges in courts of law? Can he give an assurance that these prisoners and detainees will soon be released?
    Mr. Amery: The hon. Gentleman must remember that the emergency is not yet over. Eighty thousand detainees have already been released. Releases last year were at the rate of 1,100 a month. We are now down to a hard core of people

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    who are considered to require full rehabilitation. A number of them have had their sentences to prison cut short to enable them to have the benefit of rehabilitation as detainees.
    Mr. Dugdale: Did I correctly hear the Minister to say that he did not know how many were detained without trial and he has sent to the Governor to find out? In that case, how can he say that there are not very many, and it is only a hard core? Does he not know how many there are?
    Mr. Amery: I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman is either growing hard of hearing or has not read his hon. Friend's Question correctly.

  SOMALILAND

    Hargeisa Water Supply
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made in the building of the dam in Somaliland Protectorate that is to ensure the Hargeisa water supply.
    Mr. J. Amery: I assume that the hon. Member is referring to a proposal made some years ago that a sub-surface dam should be built to improve the town's water supply. It was eventually decided that such a dam would not achieve the desired result. The proposal was accordingly abandoned and a firm of consulting engineers is at present investigating other possible means of improving the supply.
    Mr. Johnson: Is the Minister aware that not only the Africans but the Somalis and even the Europeans cannot get baths when they want them? In view of the impending visit of the Minister, will the hon. Gentleman look into the matter? It would be a shame if he could not have a bath on his visit.
    Mr. Amery: I have been looking at the matter, and I will certainly put it on top of the file.

  NYASALAND

    Tobacco Marketing and European Agriculture
    Mr. Pargiterasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what decisions have been reached as a result of the discus-
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    sions between the Governors of Nyasa-land and the federal authorities on the future of tobacco marketing and the proposal to bring European agriculture in Nyasaland under federal direction.
    Mr. Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government in regard to the handing over of the responsibility for European agriculture in Nyasaland to the Government of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland.
    Mr. J. Amery: The Governor has not yet completed his discussions with the federal authorities, and I cannot, therefore, make any statement at present.
    Mr. Pargiter: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is highly desirable to press forward with a decision in view of the uncertainty which prevails? Is it not desirable that the Africans in Nyasaland should be kept informed as much as possible about the discussions which are going on because of the suspicion which has always been in their minds about any movement towards the federalisation of European agriculture?
    Mr. Amery: I agree that it is important, but I am sure the hon. Gentleman would not wish me to anticipate any decision in this matter.
    Mr. Dugdale: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that to hand over these functions to the Federation would create an exceedingly unfavourable impression among Africans who are already suspicious that his right hon. Friend may have been too willing to grant concessions to Sir Roy Welensky from time to time? Will the hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will consult Africans before any decision is taken and that he will pay attention to their views?
    Mr. Amery: We must await the Governor's report.

    Constitution
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has yet received from the Governor of Nyasaland his proposals for constitutional advance for this Colony; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am not yet in a position to make a statement, but will do so when the necessary consultations

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    have been completed. This is an important matter, and I would remind the House that any proposals will not need to be implemented until May next year; and I therefore consider that hasty decisions on the next constitutional changes in Nyasaland should be avoided.
    Mr. Johnson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the worsening political situation in this Protectorate? Is he also aware of the acute need to make some small statement to reassure the African population in view of the disturbing statements which have been made by Sir Roy Welensky and other leaders in the Federation about their intention to tie this Protectorate more closely with the Federation as a whole?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am well aware of the need for speed coupled with a wise solution.

    Police Ordinance
    Mr. Pargiterasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what legislation to increase the powers of the police has been proposed to the Legislative Council of Nyasaland; and what official announcements have been made with regard to action to be taken to deal with unrest in the territory.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The Nyasaland Police Ordinance has recently been amended so as to extend to all police officers of the rank of assistant inspector and above the power to stop and order to disperse assemblies, meetings or processions. As to the second part of the question, following disturbances in Blantyre and Zomba, the Nyasaland Government issued a statement indicating their determination to maintain law and order. I am circulating a copy of this statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Pargiter: What are the constitutional arrangements that can be made between the Governor or the Legislative Council and the Federal Government on a matter which is clearly within the autonomy of the Legislative Council or Governor in conjunction with the Minister himself?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: As the hon. Member said, the preservation of law and order is within the autonomy of the Northern Government, and it is right to draw attention to the fact that, in
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    securing that, the resources of the Federation are behind the Northern Government. Clearly, the Federation has a very great interest in the maintenance of peaceful conditions.
    Following is the statement:
    Recent incidents, particularly in the Blantyre and Zomba areas, have given rise to considerable public concern.
    That such incidents have occurred is deplored and it should be known that the Government are determined to maintain law and order throughout the Protectorate and to deal firmly and effectively with those who disturb the public tranquillity.
    Those who seek to perpetrate such incidents are warned that the Government will take every means in its power to stamp out lawlessness.
    As to the forces required to deal with such lawlessness, in addition to its own police force the Government has, as the Federal Prime Minister recently observed, the resources of the Federation behind it. It will make the fullest use of those resources should the need arise.
    The maintenance of law and order is the first duty of the Government, and in fulfilling that duty the Government is confident that it will receive the whole-hearted co-operation of all law-abiding citizens.

  HONG KONG

    School History Books
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken by the Hong Kong Government to revise the school history books in the Colony to bring them into line with the changes that have taken place in Asia since 1945.
    Mr. J. Amery: Any out-of-date textbooks in Hong Kong are steadily being replaced as more suitable books become available.
    Mr. Rankin: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that in recent editions of the history books the children in the schools in Hong Kong have been told that Nanking is the capital of China, that Chiang Kai-shek is the leader of China and that his flag is their national flag? Does not the hon. Gentleman regard statements of that type as a form of political indoctrination in the schools, and should he not inquire into it and try to stop it?
    Mr. Amery: I hope the impression will not go out from what the hon. Member has said that there have been several instances of this. Only one instance has

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    been drawn to our attention. There is only one edition, and it is not current in all the schools. It is not the policy of the Hong Kong Government to prescribe exactly what books should be used in all Chinese schools in the Colony. We issue a list of approved books, and it is up to the school supervisors to seek approval for the books they use.

    Exports to United States (Textiles)
    Mr. Peelasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the United States Government proposes to approach the Hong Kong Government with a view to it restricting exports of textiles from Hong Kong to the United States of America; and whether he will make a statement on the policy of Her Majesty's Government to this proposal.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I understand that the United States Assistant Secretary for International Affairs in the Ministry of Commerce, who, in the course of a tour in the Far East, will shortly visit Hong Kong, wishes to discuss with Government officials and industrial leaders exports of cotton apparel from the Colony and their impact on the United States domestic industry. I cannot pre-judge the course of the conversations.
    Her Majesty's Government's general policy is to oppose vigorously the unilateral imposition of restrictions by other countries on the import of Hong Kong goods.
    Mr. Peel: Could my right hon. Friend say whether the greatest fear that Hong Kong had in connection with the recent negotiations with this country over the restricting of imports of textiles here was that any agreement would be regarded as a precedent to be used by other countries? Has not that great fear been fully justified, inasmuch as France has already restricted imports of Hong Kong textiles and it looks as if the United States may try to do the same? In the circumstances, will my right hon. Friend say that Her Majesty's Government will give the Hong Kong Government every possible support in their forthcoming negotiations?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Yes, Sir, we certainly shall.
    Mr. S. Silverman: In giving the Hong Kong Government legitimate support in
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    any legitimate direction, will the Minister bear in mind also that Lancashire has a great interest in this matter, and we should like some support too?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: There is a Question on that subject put down to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade for, I think, the day after tomorrow.

  CYPRUS

    Situation
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the situation in Cyprus.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: There have been no terrorist incidents in Cyprus since 23rd December. This has enabled some security restrictions, such as curfews, to be withdrawn. While this improvement in the situation is most welcome, there is no indication that E.O.K.A. has abandoned violence as an instrument of policy. As the Governor said in his broadcast on 13th January, there can be no bargaining with violence and the security forces must continue to take whatever steps are necessary to keep the peace and to prevent the organisation of terror.
    Mr. Robinson: Why cannot security operations be called off so long as the cessation of violence, which we all welcome, continues? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if the Government continue to meet every gesture with the same disingenuousness and lack of imagination that they have shown for so long, they will find it very difficult to shuffle off responsibility if this one-sided truce comes to an end and the killings start again?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The hon. Gentleman should bear in mind that military operations, depending as they do very largely on information, cannot be turned on and off in the way that he appears to suggest. The current operations, which consist mainly of large-scale patrolling, scarcely constitute any interference with the civil population.
    Mr. Brockway: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether the advantages of carrying out certain military operations can be balanced with the

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    necessity to create a new atmosphere in Cyprus following the offer of a cessation of violence by E.O.K.A.? Will he not ask the Government to respond by ending military activity while the negotiations continue?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Most certainly not. I am sure that is not the way to bring about a solution of the difficulties in Cyprus. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that a number of things have happened recently. Curfews have been lifted, traffic prohibitions and bicycle bans have been removed, and three towns have been put back again in bounds. There have been considerable reliefs owing to the improved situation.
    Mr. Bevan: Is it not clear that we are only going—
    Mr. Dudley Williams: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There have been several supplementary questions to this Question, but they have all been asked by hon. Members on the other side of the House. Would it not be in order for someone on this side of the House to ask a supplementary question?
    Mr. Speaker: In good time.
    Mr. Bevan: Is it not a fact that in this island we must eventually look not for a military solution but for a political solution? Is it not a fact that on several occasions we have been brought to precisely the point where we are now? The soldiers' leaders have said every time that E.O.K.A. has established a truce, that it is merely to give it an opportunity to regroup, re-form and recruit, and every time that statement has proved false. Has not E.O.K.A. recently said that despite what is going on, it will still continue the truce in the hope that a peaceful settlement will be reached? Ought we not to respond in a more statesmanlike way?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I very much regret that the right hon. Gentleman's interpretation of previous truces has not been correct. I have nothing to add to the answer that I have given.
    Mr. Gower: Have not some of these supplementary questions been quite misleading? Is it not a fact that many of the steps taken recently have shown an ample readiness by the Government to
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    co-operate in creating a better mood in Cyprus?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: That is abundantly true.

  TANGANYIKA

    Sugar Industry
    Mr. Skeffingtonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the nature of the expert advice being sought, as announced in paragraph 7 of Government of Tanganyika Paper No. 9 of 1958; and when, and in what form, Her Majesty's Government propose to publish this advice.
    Mr. J. Amery: At the request of the Government of Tanganyika I have arranged with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for an officer of his Department, with experience of the operation of the Commonwealth and International Sugar Agreements, to visit East Africa. His advice will be available to the Tanganyika authorities in considering their future policy. I do not expect that he will submit a formal report.
    Mr. Skeffington: Would the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is some apprehension that the nature of the advice was to be purely commercial and that we are very glad to hear that it is not and that the paramount question here is the maximum production for the benefit of the people of Tanganyika?

  EAST AND CENTRAL AFRICAN TERRITORIES

    Constitutions
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now make a further statement on the constitutional position of Her Majesty's territories in East and Central Africa; and what developments he plans for those territories in the near future.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am today answering a separate Question about Nyasaland by the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Johnson). Yesterday an Order in Council was made for Northern Rhodesia, and Royal Instructions were issued, giving effect to the decisions of

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    which I informed the House when replying to my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Miss Vickers) on 18th December. I have no statement to make about the East African territories.
    Mr. Hughes: In view of the right hon. Gentleman's experience of the model election now taking place, one-half of which has taken place, does he feel that that type of election could properly be applied to other territories in East Africa?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am sorry, but I did not hear the type of election which the hon. and learned Member suggested
    Mr. Hughes: The Minister must be aware that a model election is taking place in the territory in two parts. One part is completed and another part is about to take place. The question which I am asking is this. Does the right hon. Gentleman's experience of that type of election lead him to the view that it might fairly be applied to other British territories in East Africa?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman had in mind Tanganyika, where the elections have been divided into two because of the vast size of the territory and the nature of the constituencies. No greater mistake could be made than to assume that circumstances which prevail in one territory are necessarily the same in other territories.

    School for Social Studies
    Miss Vickersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will consider opening a school for social studies in East Africa.
    Mr. J. Amery: Education to degree standard in sociology, economics and government is already provided at Makerere College, where there is a Department of Social Studies, and the East African Institute of Social Research under a single director, who is a professor of sociology. If my hon. Friend will let me know what sort of school she has in mind, I will consult the East African Governments.
    Miss Vickers: Does not the hon. Gentleman thing it better for African students to take their complete degrees in their country of origin, where they can have the understanding of their people,
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    rather than come here first for postgraduate work? It is difficult to assimilate knowledge here and then go back with it to their own people if they have not first had the proper background.
    Mr. Amery: As I said, degree standard can be obtained in Makerere College and in the East African Institute of Social Research.

    Literature Bureau
    Miss Vickersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the success of the East African Literature Bureau, he will consider giving a larger grant in order that the services of the Bureau can be increased because of the fact that there is an increased number of children leaving school, and a larger number of adults who can read in the local languages and in English.
    Mr. J. Amery: Grants amounting to over £330,000 have been made under the Colonial Development and Welfare Acts towards the East African Literature Bureau in the period ending 31st March, 1960. It is proposed to continue this assistance for a limited period after that date, assuming that Parliament renews the Colonial Development and Welfare Act. In future, however, the main contributions will come from the East African Governments, who propose to continue their assistance at as high a level as possible.
    Miss Vickers: Has my hon. Friend seen the reported statement that the East African High Commissioner is very doubtful whether there will be sufficient money, and does he not think that it is frustrating to people to receive education, either in local languages or in English, and then find that they have not sufficient books or magazines to read?
    Mr. Amery: We certainly attach great importance to the continuance of the Bureau.

  SINGAPORE

    Secret Societies (Political Activities)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what evidence has been received of intimidation by secret societies in Singapore; and what steps are being taken to ensure that there shall be no improper interference with political activities before the forthcoming election.
    Mr. J. Amery: Following allegations of interference by secret societies in by-elections in 1957, the Singapore Government appointed a Commission of Enquiry, most of whose recommendations have been accepted and will shortly be included in legislation. Copies of the Report of this Commission are available in the Library.
    Mrs. White: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the so-called secret societies consist not infrequently of strong-arm men or even thugs who can employ the most reprehensible methods? Is he satisfied that there will be no intimidation of this sort in the forthcoming months?
    Mr. Amery: It is impossible to guarantee that there will be no intimidation at all, because there has been a tendency in the past for certain candidates to use secret societies, but we must hope that the recommendations of the Commission will minimise this danger to a great extent.

  DOCUMENTS (CROWN PRIVILEGE)
  Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Attorney-General if he will arrange for the setting up of an appropriate committee to review the existing state of the law with regard to Crown privilege of documents.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller): No. The law and practice governing the exclusion of evidence in judicial proceedings in the public interest was reviewed as recently as 1956. The Government came to the conclusion that no amendment of the law was required, but, with the object of minimising the prejudice which may be unavoidably caused to litigants by the withholding of evidence, decided that certain modifications should be made in the practice then current. An announcement to this effect was made by my noble Friend the Lord Chancellor in another place on 6th June, 1956, and the whole question was very fully debated in this House on 26th October in the same year. I do not consider that there is any need for a further review of the position at present.
  Mr. Fletcher: Is the Attorney-General not aware that those modifications which he announced have proved quite inadequate, and recent cases have shown that
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  the existing system produces great injustice, being very largely condemned by the legal profession and going much further than is required on any grounds of national security? Would it not be much better, in doubtful cases, if it were left to the judge rather than the Minister to decide what documents should be produced in court?
  The Attorney-General: I cannot accept any of the hon. Gentleman's statements.

  ROAD ACCIDENTS (ANIMALS)
  Mr. D. Jonesasked the Attorney-General if he will introduce legislation to define the liabilities of farmers in the event of accidents on the highway involving motorists and stock straying on the highway after dark.
  The Attorney-General: No. I think the law is sufficiently clear. Decided cases establish beyond question that occupiers of adjacent land are under no duty to prevent animals from escaping on to the highway.
  Mr. Jones: Is it not a fact that a motorist who, through no fault of his own, has his motor car damaged by a straying animal on the highway while he is driving along has no redress against the farmer at all and has to claim from his own insurance company, thus losing any no-claim bonus which years of careful driving may have built up?
  The Attorney-General: It may well be that, under the law as it now stands, a motorist cannot recover if he collides with an animal on the highway.
  Mr. Beswick: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that in my constituency, which is in the Metropolitan area, there have been within the last year two cases of motor cars being overturned after collision with runaway horses? Is it not a fact that, under the present law, there is no liability on the owner of those horses, and will the right hon. and learned Gentleman therefore consider whether the law could be changed?
  The Attorney-General: The Question relates to horses straying on the highway, not runaway horses—a very different thing. As regards animals straying on the highway, the common law has been the same for a very long time. I do not know

  21
  the facts of the cases to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but if they were animals which strayed on to the highway there would, of course, be no liability.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: If they run away, what are they doing if not straying?
  The Attorney-General: There are horses which run away without straying.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Official Cars
    Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Works how many official Government cars were in use in 1951; and how many are in use at the moment.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. Hugh Molson): On 1st November, 1951, there were 722 chauffeur-driven official cars on general duties. When the Government car service was formed on 1st April, 1952, it consisted of 661 cars: there are now 259.

    Nos. 10, 11 and 12, Downing Street (Reconstruction)
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Works whether he has yet reached any conclusions on the plans prepared by the architect for the reconstruction of Nos. 10, 11, and 12 Downing Street.
    Mr. Molson: I cannot yet add anything to my reply to a Question by the hon. Member on 16th December.
    Mr. Parker: Will the Minister say when he expects to be able to make an announcement on this matter?
    Mr. Molson: I am not a prophet.

    Victoria Gate, Hyde Park
    Mr. M. Lindsayasked the Minister of Works how long alterations to Victoria Gate, Hyde Park, to expedite the flow of traffic have been under consideration; and when he hopes to make a decision.
    Mr. Molson: There have in the past been a number of proposals for improving the traffic flow at the Victoria Gate, but I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to the scheme to widen the road which was announced by my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation on 12th November, in reply to a Question by my hon. and
    22
    gallant Friend the Member for Poole (Capt. Pilkington). This will provide for two lanes of traffic instead of one as at present. The proposal was put to me in September, 1958, and I hope that work will start in the spring.
    Mr. Lindsay: Do these proposals include the widening of the gates so that there will be two lanes of traffic flowing in and out at the same time, or is it merely proposed to widen the boulevard?
    Mr. Molson: There is no reference to the boulevard, if there be a boulevard. I was referring to the lanes of traffic out of the gate.

    Road Works, Hyde Park
    Mr. M. Lindsayasked the Minister of Works why contractors were permitted to dig up the road in Hyde Park, opposite Albert Gate, for some hours on Monday, 5th January, thereby causing great inconvenience to motor traffic, instead of this work having been done on the previous day, Sunday, 4th January.
    Mr. Molson: A trench was dug across the road on the 16th and 17th December in connection with a traffic light scheme. The excavation was refilled but not resurfaced in order to allow the traffic to consolidate the foundation, as is the usual practice. Early on Monday, 5th January, it was noticed that the edges of the trench were beginning to crumble rapidly, and arrangements had accordingly to be made for the road to be resurfaced immediately as an emergency measure.
    Sir F. Medlicott: Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the extraordinary time occupied in completing work at the junction of Whitehall into Trafalgar Square and at many other places in Central London? Can he inject a greater sense of urgency into the work of dealing with these road traffic problems?
    Mr. Molson: I do not think that that can arise out of the original Question.

    Ministry of Labour Office, Kirkby
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the Minister of Works whether he is aware that his Department has informed the Kirkby Urban District Council that a new Ministry of Labour office will not be constructed before 1962; and whether, in

    23
    view of the employment situation in this area, he will take steps to expedite the construction of this office.
    Mr. Molson: The building of the new offices at Kirkby to house the Ministry of Labour and other social service departments will probably start early in 1961. Two years is the minimum time required for the detailed design work and for consultation with the planning authorities.
    Mr. Wilson: Does the Minister mean to say that it takes two years to design a Ministry of Labour employment exchange? Can he not speed it up? Further, is he aware that although this is a new town it is an area with very heavy unemployment, and will he not appreciate the need for accelerating the processes of his Department so that the area can have proper service long before that date?
    Mr. Molson: I am glad of this opportunity to emphasise that, as a result of the introduction of firm price tendering, we prepare complete detailed drawings and plans and all specifications in advance. Normally, for all buildings, a considerable time is required. In order to have reasonably efficient building, it is necessary that proper time should be taken in making plans.
    Mr. Wilson: But does the Minister not remember that when the Ministry of Works was properly run in 1945 and 1946 it was able, through the use of its own direct labour force, to build a great number of teachers' training colleges in a matter of months, without all this delay? Does the right hon. Gentleman really mean that he has slowed up the work of his Department so that it takes him two years to prepare plans for an employment exchange?
    Mr. Molson: The record of the costs of building educational establishments of all kinds when the present Opposition were in office is such that I should hardly have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would suggest that we should go back to the methods they adopted when constructing educational establishments.

    Houses, Kirkby (Rents)
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the Minister of Works why he has increased the rents of houses owned by his Department in the Kirkby area; what financial loss his
    24
    Department is at present suffering per house; and whether he will reconsider his decision in this matter.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. W. J. Taylor): I have been asked to reply, as the houses at Kirkby are owned by the Ministry of Supply. Rents are being increased where necessary to bring them in line with rents which under the Rent Act, 1957, may be charged by private landlords. The present annual loss per dwelling amounts to about £37. The new rents for both houses and flats are reasonable, and my right hon. Friend does not propose to reconsider his decision.
    Mr. Wilson: Does the Minister think that this is really the way to run a Government? First, they introduce the Rent Act to allow higher rents to private landlords and then, in order to maintain parity, they raise the rents of publicly-owned houses.
    Mr. Taylor: I am satisfied that the rents now being charged for these houses are in line with those charged for local authority houses and the best privately-owned houses. There is no reason to accept a suggestion that Government tenants, or, indeed, tenants not employed by the Government, should have a preferential rent compared with others.
    Mr. Wilson: While we do not deny that these rents may be in line with the excessive rents which this Government are allowing private landlords to charge, is the Minister aware that, although he may be satisfied, the tenants are not, and will he accept my invitation to visit Kirkby to discuss this matter with the tenants?
    Mr. Taylor: I should have thought that the example of the local authorities which I gave in my answer was a reasonable one to give. These rents are not out of line with local authority rents. As regards a visit to the town, I am quite prepared to send an official up there at any time to see these houses, or, indeed, to do anything which will show that the Government are no worse a landlord than either the local authorities or the best of private owners.
    Mr. Osborne: Is my hon. Friend not aware that, in following this policy, he is following the example of many Socialist-controlled councils in putting up rents to a reasonable level?
    Mr. Taylor: I should not necessarily accept that as a precept, but I appreciate what my hon. Friend has said.

    INTERNATIONAL DISPUTES
    Mr. Lewisasked the Prime Minister in view of the fact that the Suez operation involved a contravention of various articles of the United Nations Charter, whether he will now issue a further solemn declaration that never again will Her Majesty's Government commit aggresion or take any action involving Great Britain in armed conflict or war on any incident similar to Suez, without first referring the dispute at issue to the United Nations, unless actual aggression is first taken against Great Britain, any member of the Commonwealth, or countries that have mutual defence treaties with Great Britain; and further, whether he will request the leaders of the great Powers to subscribe to a similar declaration, so far as it affects their respective positions.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): While I do not accept the implications of the first part of the hon. Gentleman's Question, I have some sympathy with his intentions. I think, however, that his proposal goes too far. There must be occasions when action, if it is to be effective, must be immediate.
    Mr. Lewis: Is that not an answer to try to excuse the Prime Minister and his colleagues for the action they took at Suez? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the majority of people, not only of this country but of the world, feel that it would be better if all the statesmen of the world were to subscribe to a statement such as this? Why cannot the Prime Minister at least give a lead, not only to the people of this country but to the people of the world?
    The Prime Minister: I did not expect the hon. Member to agree with me about Suez, which was, of course, a matter of dispute, but let me give another instance, that of the recent American intervention in the Lebanon and the British intervention in Jordan. There was general agreement that it succeeded in stabilising the position, and, indeed, a general tribute to that fact has been paid recently by Mr. Hammarskjoeld.
    Mr. Bevan: What aspect of the Suez adventure is the Prime Minister most proud of—its immediacy or its effectiveness?
    The Prime Minister: I was answering what I thought was a serious question. I was giving a reason why I thought that the proposal as it stood could not be accepted. I recall that with regard to the Lebanon the Opposition was in favour of the American intervention, although characteristically it voted against the British one.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain under what circumstances he thinks it would be justified to take immediate action which would not be covered by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations?
    The Prime Minister: That is a complicated question of law, and I remember that on the Lebanon and Jordan issue we debated it at some length. The right hon. Gentleman did not quite accept the view of my advisers. I was trying, however, to say whether the proposal raised by the hon. Member in the Question is one that any Government could accept in toto, and I was giving reasons why I thought it could not.

    SUEZ OPERATIONS
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he will consider asking President Eisenhower for his permission to publish the messages he sent to the British Prime Minister in connection with the Suez campaign.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Hughes: May I wish the Prime Minister a happy New Year and speedy permanent retirement before it is over? Is he aware that he will be much helped in his memoirs when he comes to retire if he has the liberty to publish the document from President Eisenhower, which showed that President Eisenhower had the common sense to stop the Suez war?
    The Prime Minister: I am grateful for the kind good wishes of the hon. Member in the first part of his question. I had a very happy Christmas and he seems to have recovered from the New Year. I must say that it has taken him quite a long time to think of this supplementary question.

    COLONIAL TERRITORIES (NATIONAL SERVICE MEN)
    Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the observations made by a Cyprus coroner in relation to the conduct of British troops under stress of emotion, he will take the decision, in principle, not to use National Service men to combat insurrection in Colonial Territories.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Mr. Zilliacus: Is it not a bad thing in practice to use relatively untrained young troops for what is, admittedly, one of the most arduous, exacting and trying forms of duty for our troops? Is it not an abuse of the rights of the State over the individual, and wrong in principle, to compel men to kill or be killed for politically controversial and morally ambiguous questions such as repression in Colonial Territories?
    The Prime Minister: Without going into the various allegations and imputations in that supplementary question, I would remind the hon. Member that it is the Government's policy to bring National Service to an end, and I have no doubt that we shall succeed. Meanwhile, however, most Members of the House would, I think, realise that it is impracticable to divide the troops into the National Service and the Regular until that final process of Regular forces has been brought about.
    Mr. Paget: Is not the real trouble that troops are quite unsuitable instruments of civil repression in disturbances? Is it not high time that we developed a colonial police reserve which could be sent to areas of disturbance in a Colonial Territory without tying down our main forces?
    The Prime Minister: That is another question. The police in Cyprus are, of course, being strengthened, but this is a question as to whether we should divide the Army, when it is used, into Regular and National Service. I was trying to say that that appeared to me to be impracticable.

    SCOTLAND (SELF- GOVERNMENT)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the increasing need for maximum self-government in Scotland; and whether he will consider the
    28
    appointment of a Speaker's Conference, or similar committee, responsible to Parliament, to consider this matter.
    The Prime Minister: The Royal Commission on Scottish Affairs reported as recently as July, 1954, and I am not aware of any need for a further inquiry into this matter.
    Mr. Rankin: Surely, the Prime Minister is aware that the terms of reference of the Royal Commission prevented its considering the points that are raised here. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these matters were raised at a special conference of the Scottish Labour Party last September, and that their feeling was that owing to the increasing pressure of international and United Kingdom matters on the time of the House, Scottish affairs are not receiving the attention that they deserve? Will not the Prime Minister consider such an approach to the problem as is suggested in the Question?
    The Prime Minister: A great deal has been done following the Report of the Royal Commission and by the present Government. The offices of the Ministers have been increased specially for Scotland. There has been the transfer of electricity, highways, justices of the peace and animal health following the recommendations of the Commission. It was fairly recently that the new operation of the Scottish Grand Committee was agreed upon and the Standing Orders were revised only a year ago. While I am quite sure that everything should be done to get full discussion of Scottish questions in the Scottish Grand Committee and elsewhere, I would not have thought the House as a whole was dissatisfied with these new arrangements.
    Sir J. Hutchison: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the people of Scotland are, in general terms, perfectly satisfied with the way things are going?
    Mr. Woodburn: Further to my hon. Friend's supplementary question, will the Prime Minister consider whether the Committee which is now considering the arrangements for the business of the House might not consider whether there could not be a considerable devolution of the detailed business of English, Scottish and Welsh Questions to Committees such as the Scottish Grand Committee, thus relieving the pressure upon the House for

    29
    the proper consideration of bigger international issues?
    The Prime Minister: It is the Committee on Procedure to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. I have no doubt that its Chairman and members will note what he has said.
    Mr. Speaker rose—
    Mr. Rankin: On a point of order. Is it in order to have such a Committee, on which there is no Scottish representative other than the Chairman, considering—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not a point of order.

    FOREIGN SECRETARY (STATEMENT)
    Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister whether the statement made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at Liverpool University on 28th February, to the effect that he saw no difference between a war fought with conventional weapons and a war fought with nuclear weapons, represented the policy of the Government.
    The Prime Minister: I can find no trace of a statement by my right hon. and learned Friend at Liverpool University on 28th February. He did, however, speak there on 28th November last year, when his argument was that the problem was not peace or nuclear war. It was peace or war. With modern means of delivery of so-called conventional explosives, a global war fought with such weapons would destroy our society almost as certainly as a nuclear war. This seems to me entirely correct.
    Mr. Zilliacus: While regretting the slip of the pen about the date, is it not a fact that the Foreign Secretary then said that he saw no difference between a global war fought with conventional weapons and a global war fought with nuclear weapons? Is not the whole point that a war cannot be fought with nuclear weapons without destroying the human race? Will not the Prime Minister make it clear that the Government appreciate this difference between war today and war yesterday?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Member has taken one passage from the speech.
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    I could read the whole of it, but will quote just one other passage:
    "The evil is war, not the weapon. Do not be led away into the belief that a conventional world war is something to be tolerated."
    Having seen two world wars in my lifetime, I thoroughly agree with that.

    SUMMIT TALKS
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Prime Minister what initiative for summit talks on the relaxation of international tension he will take, in the light of his recent exchanges with Mr. Khrushchev.
    The Prime Minister: The recent exchanges with the Soviet Government have shown that there exists a desire for negotiation on both sides. We are now consulting our Allies about the initiative that we might take in the light of this fact.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Prime Minister aware that that is the sort of question and answer that we have been having for twelve months? Is he not aware that people are getting tired of the endless excuses of diplomatic manœuvres that frustrate the holding of these talks? To avoid the Government being by-passed or disregarded in the matter, will the Prime Minister not now take the initiative in proposing a date for some procedure to bring these talks to a head?
    The Prime Minister: With our allies, we are now preparing a reply to the last Russian Note, which answered our proposal for a conference. In preparing our reply, I shall certainly take note of what the hon. Member has said and express once more our hope that we may be able to enter into negotiations about all these matters.
    Mr. Grimond: Has the Prime Minister any information to give the House concerning the talks now going on in Geneva, where, it seems, the Russians have shown a rather more co-operative spirit over disarmament? Can we be told anything of their progress?
    The Prime Minister: There has been, I think, a certain amount of progress. I would like special notice for a detailed reply. The hon. Member may have observed that there has been a substantial concession or move by the Western allies on this matter, which, I hope, will be followed by getting agreement nearer.
    Mr. Bevan: As the Prime Minister will have seen, I have a Question, No. 52. Does he propose to answer it?
    The Prime Minister: Yes.
    Mr. Bevan: Thank you.

    UNEMPLOYMENT (PUBLIC WORKS)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Prime Minister, in view of the human and economic consequences of increasing unemployment, if he will issue a special instruction to all Departments concerned with building and public works to increase their programmes in areas in which men and women are subject to enforced idleness.
    The Prime Minister: The Government have taken positive measures to deal with unemployment generally and with areas of high unemployment in particular. As the House is aware, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced on 3rd November that big increases have been authorised in investment in the public sector, which, of course, includes building and public works. In allocating these increases, Departments have been instructed to give special attention to the needs of high unemployment areas.
    Mr. Swingler: If it is not clear to the Prime Minister from some of the visits he has been making that these positive measures are not so far effective in reducing the level of unemployment, is it not clear that the Government Departments concerned with the building of houses, roads and schools could immediately increase their programmes in the areas of high unemployment? Will not the Prime Minister issue a directive that those Departments should do so?
    The Prime Minister: That is exactly what I have said. We have made considerable increases in the allocations with this in view, and I am hopeful that this will begin to have a fruitful operation.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, on the Government's own statement to the Press last
    32
    week, all that they succeeded in doing on last year's legislation was to create new employment opportunities for about 1,000 people in these areas? Will the Prime Minister not recognise that it is no good having machinery to divert new work to the areas of high unemployment unless a lot of new work is provided by a policy of full employment and expansion in economic affairs?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, but even the right hon. Gentleman will not expect me at this moment to enter into what must be a debate on general economic policy. Perhaps it would be worth reminding ourselves that the basis upon which all employment depends is a solvent society, a good balance of payments and a sense of confidence in the country; and that exists.
    Mr. Wilson: While the Government may be only too willing to have a debate, though he obviously does not want to have it, would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that production in this country has been absolutely stagnant now since the last election, for three and a half years, and that without rapid expansion in production the problem of unemployment will not be solved in the areas that we are talking about?
    The Prime Minister: Nor will national problems be solved by taking measures which lead to crisis and bankruptcy. That is what the Labour Party did.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not a general problem but that there are very definite black spots and also other spots which are quite prosperous? Will he not ask all Departments to look into the possibility of just lowering the pressure a little in the prosperous areas and diverting some of the orders into other areas which are suffering from unemployment, as is Scotland?
    The Prime Minister: I have sympathy with that, and it is that point, at which increased orders are given, that Departments are directed to observe.

GERMANY (REUNIFICATION)
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. BEVAN: To ask the Prime Minister if he will make a statement concerning the Government's policy in regard to German reunification in the light of the exchange of Notes between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the Western Powers.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): With your permission, Sir, and that of the House, I will now answer Question No. 52.
The declared policy of Her Majesty's Government and their Allies is that Germany should be reunified by free elections and that the resulting all-German Government should be free to choose its own domestic and foreign policies. But they are ready at any time to enter into discussions with the Soviet Government in any appropriate forum on any proposals genuinely designed to ensure the reunification of Germany in freedom.
Mr. Bevan: Has the attention of the Prime Minister been directed to a statement by Mr. Foster Dulles that free elections are not necessarily the only way of achieving the reunification of Germany? If so, does he agree with that statement? Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there really is need now for a greater sense of urgency than the Prime Minister has yet shown in this matter? Has he not realised that there are certain things now occurring in Western Germany which are taking on a quite ugly significance? Is he not aware that the German forces are being trained in the use of weapons which could be armed with nuclear warheads?
Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that the situation has not been helped by Dr. Adenauer's insistence that Western Germany does not accept the Oder-Neisse line? How far must the situation go on deteriorating before an initiative is taken by the West? Would he really speed up action?
The Prime Minister: There are a number of parts to that supplementary question and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I do not remember them all.
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I said that the declared policy of the Government and their Allies was the reunification of Germany by free elections. I said at the end of my statement that we were ready to discuss in any appropriate forum any proposals designed to ensure the reunification of Germany in freedom. I thoroughly agree with what Mr. Dulles said as being quite in conformity with Allied opinion. I quote what he said:
"The formula of reunification by free elections was the agreed formula. It seems to us to be a natural method. But I would not say that it is the only method by which reunification could be accomplished."
It was for that reason that I ended my original statement by saying that we were prepared to discuss any measures to achieve the purpose in this wider spirit to which he referred.
As to the other questions, there are, of course, some difficulties and alarming situations. There is the Soviet Note about Berlin. All these problems are being studied in consultation with our Allies. The House will remember that I made a reply. There were several different—I think there were three separate—replies. We all suggested that there should be a conference. The Russians then made counter-proposals with regard to the character of that conference, and its place. We have now to consider our reply to that proposal.
Mr. Bevan: What does the right hon. Gentleman suggest for discussion with the Soviet Union? What sort of conference? Is it to be an open conference? Do we intend to put forward proposals of our own? Is it not obvious that mere reiteration, such as the right hon. Gentleman has made this afternoon, about free elections in Germany and the right of a reunited Germany to join any allies she likes, is no recipe for a solution of this problem at all? It does not really move things one inch at the present time. Are we to go on waiting until this alarming situation becomes even more terrifying before we take the initiative?
The Prime Minister: No, but our position is that if and when, as I hope we shall, we have a conference, we shall have discussions with a hope of arriving at some arrangement agreeable to both sides.
Mr. Gaitskell: The problem of reunification is most unlikely to be solved

35
unless the problem of European security is solved at the same time. Can we have an assurance that the Government, as far as lies within their power, will urge their Allies of the West to put forward positive proposals on both points?
The Prime Minister: That is one of the reasons why I do not want to be too precise. In the Russian Note, the right hon. Gentleman will observe that the Russians wished the subject to be only Germany. We had rather wished to extend it, in our proposal, to European security. I do not want to haggle about words. We may find a formula by which we could have such a conference without turning down one or other of the suggestions. That is why today we want to make it as wide as possible, but I would accept even a narrower basis such as the Soviet suggestion if we could, in the course of discussion and negotiation, broaden it into the wider considerations.
Mr. Shinwell: As Mr. Dulles has suggested that there are means other than free elections of achieving the reunification of Germany, has any such suggestion been made to the right hon. Gentleman from American sources? Has any submission to that effect been made?
The Prime Minister: This statement was made at a conference. Of course, we are in very close touch. We have our experts trying to consider together, and we have other people to consult as well, the French and the Germans, as to these possible methods and about the position which we might take at a conference.
Mr. Gaitskell: Reverting to my previous question, I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman will answer this. Is it the view of the Government that the West German Republic should, whatever the circumstances, remain free to decide whether or not, if there is a reunited Germany, Germany remains within N.A.T.O.? Is he aware that if the Governments of the Western Allies insist upon this condition, the prospect of any settlement in Europe is really negligible?
The Prime Minister: I do not understand how a country can be said to be free if it is not able to follow the foreign policy that it wishes. The right hon.
36
Gentleman, in question and answer, has raised a very grave issue. For my part, I say that our position is as I have said that it must be, the right of a country to make its own foreign policy.
Mr. Gaitskell: What if the Government insist that Germany must remain thus free, even though the West German Government themselves might decide, in order to achieve reunification, to renounce this freedom?
The Prime Minister: How can we force a Government to do something that they are not willing or wishing to do? All these things cannot really be debated in this way. They are very large and difficult issues. I want a conference, I want a solution, but I do not intend to go to a conference having first, in public, taken a position which would weaken myself and my Allies in such a conference.
Mr. Bevan: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that his last statement is rather in contradiction to his opening statement? He gave us the impression at the beginning that he was quite prepared to enter into a conference without taking up any position beforehand. Does he not realise that what he has now said imposes an impossible inhibition upon any settlement being reached, if, as he says all the time, we must, whatever settlement is reached, leave Western Germany or reunited Germany free to choose its allies? That has always been accepted as an impossible condition for the success of a conference of this sort.
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman speaks as though Soviet policy over these years showed great flexibility and give. I do not think that that is so. I was asked what was the policy of the Government. I will repeat it. It is that Germany should be reunited by free elections and that the resulting all-German Government should be free to choose their own domestic and foreign policies. I added this rider: I agree with what Mr. Dulles said, that the precise method of making that unification, so long as it is genuinely free, could be a subject in which more than one method could be found.
Mr. Shinwell: Does the Prime Minister not realise that statements like Mr. Dulles's statement, made in isolation, namely, that other means of achieving

37
reunification could be adopted, lead to confusion? Would not the right hon. Gentleman try to clear up or remove the confusion by himself making a declaration to that effect quite categorically, so that we may know that the Allies are operating in concert?
The Prime Minister: I shall continue to do my best to secure that the reply sent by the Allies to the Russian Government regarding the possibility of a conference shall be one which carries with it the full approval of all the Allies concerned.

BRITISH ALUMINIUM COMPANY
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. H. WILSON: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is yet in a position to make a statement about his decision on the applications made to him concerning the British Aluminium Company.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. E. S. Simon): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I will answer Question No. 66.
The Treasury have today given the necessary consents in connection with the acquisition of a majority holding in the British Aluminium Company Limited, by Reynolds-T.I. Aluminium Company Limited, a United Kingdom company.
Consent to an application arising out of a conditional agreement made between British Aluminium Company Limited, and the Aluminium Company of America has, in the circumstances, been withheld.
The arrangements made between Tube Investments Limited and Reynolds Metals Company ensure that the control of the British Aluminium Company remains in United Kingdom hands. These arrangements will not be modified without the consent of the Treasury.
Mr. Wilson: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the House will applaud the decision of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to defer taking a decision on this matter, as we asked him, until the situation had been clarified? Is he further aware that, despite the
38
somewhat undignified performance of certain powerful interests in the City, this matter has now become clarified and that we feel that the decision taken by the Treasury is the only decision to be taken in the circumstances?
Are we to take it, as the hon. and learned Gentleman said, and we understand, that control is still unequivocally in this country? Will he give a further assurance, to which we on this side of the House attach great importance, namely, that the new company owning British Aluminium will ensure to the employees of that company the same status, facilities and rights that were granted to them under the previous management?
Mr. Simon: The companies that have acquired the control of the British Aluminium Company, as I think the right hon. Gentleman knows, are very well known for their excellent employment policies. I do not think that there is any reason to doubt that the employees of British Aluminium will continue to receive the same fair treatment that they have had in the past.
Mr. Wilson: Quite. When we had the famous clash with the outgoing Prime Minister on the Trinidad Oil Company deal, though we much disagreed with the unpatriotic decision of Her Majesty's Government on that occasion, we secured from the right hon. Gentleman an assurance about the conditions of employment of employees of the Trinidad Oil Company. When the hon. and learned Gentleman communicates to the new interests the decision which he has announced in the House this afternoon, will he inform them that it is the desire of the House and of the Treasury that all these employees' rights should be safeguarded by the new management?
Mr. Simon: I think that I can safely give the assurance that, as we communicate the consent, we will communicate the desire of the whole House that the employees of this company should be treated in every way in a fair manner.
Mr. Bellenger: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman enlighten the House about the fact on which he has based his assurance that control will remain in this country? Is it due to the fact that there

39
are to be only three American directors on the board, or that the majority holding is actually an American one?
Mr. Simon: No, Sir. The majority holding will not be an American one. The essence of the arrangement is that actual control of the company will be by the British company, the Reynolds-T.I. Aluminium Company, in which Tube Investments have a majority holding.
Mr. Osborne rose—
Mr. Speaker: I think that this had better stop.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  ELECTRICITY (BORROWING POWERS) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.45 p.m.
  The Paymaster-General (Mr. Reginald Maudling): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The Bill itself is a very brief one, running to only two Clauses but, of course its financial and economic implications are very considerable. The purpose of the Bill is to extend the borrowing authority of the electricity authorities in Great Britain. In the case of the Electricity Council, the total limit of its permitted borrowings will go up from £1,400 million to £2,300 million; the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board from £200 million to £300 million, and the South of Scotland Electricity Board from £75 million to £135 million.
  These are very large sums indeed, but we are dealing with an industry in which the rate of investment year by year has now for some time been very high, and in which the rate of investment must continue at this high rate if the supply industry is to be able to meet the demands of the electricity consumers, domestic, industrial, commercial and the rest.
  The Bill has the purpose of increasing the authorised capital of the industry. It does nothing whatever to increase the issued capital of the industry. That is an important point which I should make at the start of the debate, because we are not today asking the House to approve the issue to the industry of any money whatsoever. We are asking the House to increase the limits within which such issues can be made. As I said, we are increasing authorised capital and not the issued capital.
  The issue of capital to the electricity authorities and the borrowing of money by them from normal commercial sources are subject to very stringent controls both Ministerial and Parliamentary. The issue of Exchequer advances, for example, is, of course, subject to strict and continuous control by my noble Friend the Minister of Power and by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the amount of temporary borrowings at any time is subject to a specific limit which is laid

  41
  down by my noble Friend in consultation with the Treasury. There is continuous Ministerial control over the actual amount of money which is, within this ceiling and at any given time, available and is borrowed by the electricity authorities.
  On the question of Parliamentary control, there is now, I would suggest to the House, fairly substantial and extensive Parliamentary control over the actual amount of the borrowings of the industry. In the first place, the total amount to be advanced by the Exchequer to the nationalised industries as a whole year by year now has to be approved by this House in the Finance Bill. In the second place, there is published every April the White Paper on capital expenditure in the power industries, which gives this House an opportunity annually to check the rate of expenditure, and to satisfy itself that it is in accordance with the national interests. Thirdly, there is the Select Committee, which has been doing and is doing such extremely valuable work in probing into the actual use by these industries of the capital they borrow. Fourthly, there are the annual reports of the nationalised industries, which are debated in this House.
  So I would say that Parliamentary control of the actual issue of capital or of the actual borrowing of money from commercial sources by the nationalised industries is a strong one and is clearly laid down. What we are asking the House to do today is in no way to agree to the issue of any additional capital, but to increase the authorised limits within which such issues may take place. It is necessary to do this because the authorised limits laid down a few years ago will be exceeded, in the case of the Electricity Council, by the end of 1959, and, of the Scottish Boards, in 1960. So we must take action now to increase the total ceiling, and, in the view of the Government, it is right to take a seven-year period, because of the nature of the industry, the long time over which its capital development programme must unfold, and the time it takes from the start of a project for electricity generation to its completion.
  For all these reasons, it seems most sensible to take a seven-year period. This seven-year period of authority for borrowing is linked with a seven-year programme for the general expansion of the industry,
  42
  which was made public in the booklet which the Electricity Council recently published, "Power for the Future", in which the Council sets out what its general plans are and how it intends to finance them.
  What we are asking the House in this Bill to do is to approve an overall limit of borrowings by the electricity authorities over the next seven years, and, in asking the House to do that, we must also ask it to confirm the Government's view that the general programme laid before the Government, the House and the public for the expansion of the industry over this seven-year period is, in broad terms, a reasonably sensible programme. We are not asking for detailed approval, which must be given year by year, but it is important that there should be general approval for the expansion programme of the industry over this seven-year period.
  What we are concerned with in the Bill are the estimated borrowings of the industry, which are, of course, calculated by deducting the amount which it intends to finance from internal sources from its total capital outlay. Therefore, the amount of the borrowing limit is the result of the total investment of the industry, after deduction of the percentage of that investment which will be met from internal sources. In endeavouring to justify the Bill to the House, I will try to deal with both these points.
  First, we might look at the programme of capital investment of the industry. The figures are, of course, very large. This is an industry in which great expansion is taking place, and in which, therefore, necessarily, very large capital investment is required. The total figure of capital investment over the next seven years that is envisaged amounts to £2,130 million, of which £1,470 million will go in generation and £660 million on distribution. All this is fixed capital, and there is no provision, as I will explain later, for any increase in working capital.
  The proposal is for an investment over this seven-year period of £1,470 million in fixed capital for generating electricity and £660 million for distribution, giving a total of £2,130 million. These are the figures for the Electricity Council alone. I am not including the Scottish boards at this stage. Of this figure of £2,130 million, £980 million will be provided from internal sources, depreciation

  43
  allowances, and so on, and the borrowings to meet the balance will, therefore, amount to £1,150 million. These are very formidable figures indeed.
  The basis of this plan for expanding the industry must be the estimates that have been made of the demand for electricity over the next seven-year period. The Electricity Council has proceeded by making, both centrally and in each individual area, assessments of the likely growth of the demand for electricity by various classes of consumer—domestic, farms, industrial, commercial and so on. These estimates have been checked against past experience of the rate of growth of electricity consumption, and experience in other countries, which seems to be remarkably consistent with the experience which we have had in this country, of a broad trend towards doubling the consumption of electricity within ten years.
  I think that that is the rule of thumb which is normally taken. The estimates of the Electricity Council are roughly on these lines. Over a period of seven years, it estimates that industrial consumption should increase by about two-thirds. This is assuming the same rate of growth in manufacturing industry in this country as we have had in the last seven years, Therefore, I would think that it is on the conservative side. Secondly, as far as domestic consumption is concerned, we must recognise that, with 92 per cent. of the households of the country already connected, the scope for new domestic consumers of electricity is relatively small, and that expansion will take place, not in connecting new consumers to the supply, but in getting, persuading and encouraging individual consumers to use more electricity.
  The estimate of the Electricity Council in this field is that consumption should increase by about two-thirds over this period. Farm consumption, where there will be both an expansion in the number of farms connected to the supply, and expansion in farm uses of electricity, should probably double over this period. In the remaining fields of commercial use and use for light and traction, the estimate is that there will be about a 50 per cent, increase. Clearly, none of these estimates can be taken as very precise or accurate; they are very broad estimates, but I suggest that as the estimates made by this
  44
  industry in the past have been fairly accurate we can have confidence that the estimates for the future should also be fairly accurate.
  Adding these various increases together, we get a calculation based on an annual rate of increase of electricity consumption of 6·6 per cent, per year compared with an increase of 7·6 per cent., which has been the experience in the last seven years. I think that it is not surprising that there should be a rather slower rate of increase in the future, because there have been many arrears to catch up in the past and because the general spread of electricity to consumers not previously connected has almost reached saturation point in some areas. I think it is not unreasonable and in no way disappointing that we should budget for a slower rate of increase in total consumption over the next seven years than has been the case during the last seven years.
  Calculations by the Electricity Council lead to the conclusion that the maximum demand in an average cold spell in the country—if there is such a thing, and apparently there is for statistical purposes—should rise from just under 21 million kilowatts at present to 29½ million kilowatts in 1964–65. As I say, that is a calculation based upon the demand experienced in an average cold spell. Against this estimated increased demand of just under 9 million kilowatts, the plan is to commission new plant to the extent of 12¼ million kilowatts and the reconciliation of those two figures follows these lines: that 12¼ million kilowatts of new plant will be put into commission and about 2 million kilowatts of old, less efficient plant will either be derated or taken out of commission.
  One must give a 10 per cent, provision for plant undergoing maintenance or repairs, which is another million kilowatts, and that will mean, in effect, if the Electricity Council is right in its assumption of an increase in maximum demand to about 9 million kilowatts, that the programme we are now putting before the House will cover the increasing demand and slightly improve the margin available in times of normal cold weather demand. At present, I understand that there is a margin of about 1·7 per cent. available, and that margin will increase to 3·7; per cent. but there will still be a deficit in times of extreme cold.

  45
  I suggest to the House that this action is right. When we think of the cost per kilowatt of installed capacity in this industry, it would be a very extreme use of national resources to plan to have capacity available to cover 100 per cent. of all possible demand in the most extreme weather conditions. On the other hand, it is right for the Council to plan to have a margin of capacity in hand as against experience in average weather conditions, and that is the basis upon which these forward plans for investment and generating plant have been based.
  If it be accepted that this assessment of future demand is reasonable, it seems to me that two questions remain. In the first place, could the load factor be improved? In the second place, is the cost per kilowatt, which the Electricity Council is assuming, reasonable? The load factor is, I suppose, one of the greatest problems of the electricity industry, namely, how to ensure the maximum use of plant. Consumers of electricity like to take advantage of its convenience by switching it on for a short period and leaving it switched off for a long period. The records show that in the last ten years there has been a steady improvement in the load factor on the basis of figures adjusted for weather conditions which are available in the Report of the Central Electricity Authority. From a figure of 42·7 per cent. in 1947, the load factor has improved to 46·8; per cent. in 1958.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: If I may interrupt my right hon. Friend, those are the figures quoted in the publication, "Power for the Future", but they are not the figures for the load factor at the power stations. As such a heavy part of the investment we are talking about relates to investment in respect of power stations, and it is the use of capital invested in the power stations which ought to be our principal concern today, would not my right hon. Friend agree that the load factor at the power stations has declined from 47·03 per cent. in 1951 to 43·17 per cent. in 1958?
  Mr. Maudling: I know that my hon. Friend is very interested in these matters, so I took particular care to quote figures based on what seemed to me to be the important factor, which is the system load factor over a period adjusted for seasonal variations, because a cold winter makes
  46
  an enormous difference to the figures unless they are adjusted for the weather. The proper calculation is the system load factor, which should be the ratio of the actual use of electricity over the year to the total use there would have been if maximum demand were sustained throughout the twelve months.
  That is perhaps as fair an estimate as one can get, though these are matters upon which different opinions can be held and statistical considerations can add to the complications. The 46 per cent., or whatever it is, sounds rather a low figure, but the fact is that 77 per cent. is about the maximum we could get in practical terms because of the existence of the week-end, which we cannot abolish even in this House and because of the need for plant maintenance, and so on.
  It is estimated, however, that 60 per cent. is probably the maximum load factor any country could hope to get. I understand that in the United States they have about a 60 per cent. load factor and they are not expecting any improvement on that in the course of the next twenty years or so. In the United States, however, conditions are very different because of the much greater shift working and because the winter heating load is carried largely by oil, not by electricity. So international comparisons are difficult.
  Obviously, there is room for substantial further improvement in the load factor, and the electricity industry is doing what it can by tariff variations, by encouraging the use of appliances and by new uses of electricity to try to improve the load factor. I feel myself that if we take the figure showing the amount which electricity prices represent in the total expenditure of industry, it is a very small figure, and it would take a very big tariff variation to encourage industry to alter its habits as regards shift work, and so on, when so many other matters are bound to be more important financially than the rate paid for electric power. So there is here a big problem. The electricity authorities are tackling it, and will continue to tackle it, with vigour.
  The second point I mentioned was this. Assuming it is right to say, as we believe it is, that the electricity industry should plan for a capacity of the size I have outlined, is it right in assuming that it must pay so much money for that capacity? In other words, is the cost per kilowatt which is being assumed, a reasonable

  47
  one? I think it is and I think that the figures are rather impressive because, as I understand, the cost per kilowatt of installed capacity now is no higher than it was ten years ago, although the costs of materials and labour have increased by 75 per cent, meanwhile.
  This is a tribute to the electricity industry. It is an even greater tribute to the people who make the plant and equipment who are not—in answer to certain remarks I almost hear from across the Floor—a nationalised industry. I say that because the price of the plant is very much the responsibility of the man who makes it, even more so than of the man who orders it. Without wishing to be controversial, I think that the consumer, the electricity supply industry and the electrical goods manufacturers are entitled to take considerable credit for the fact that with all the changes in costs during the last ten years the price per kilowatt of installed capacity in coal-fired power stations is no higher than it was ten years ago. That being so, we cannot criticise the assumption made by the Council of the cost of installing this amount of new capacity.
  The position is being changed by the gradual coming in of nuclear power where, as the House is well aware, the capital costs are much higher than in the case of conventional stations. In the case of Bradwell and Berkeley, the first stations, the cost will be about three times that of a coal-fired station, and in the case of Hinkley Point it should be down to two and a half times.
  The running costs should not be higher. I should tell the House that on the whole, since the White Paper on this subject was published, there has been a certain recalculation of the comparative costs of conventional generation and nuclear generation. This is partly because the cost of conventional power has fallen slightly and partly because we have had to make a change in the amount we allow for credit from the nuclear stations. Our calculation now is that the Hinkley Point station, of which the capital cost will be £120 a kilowatt, against £145 in the case of the earlier ones, should be marginally slightly more economic than a coal-fired station operating in the same area, because one must compare the nuclear power plant not with a coal-fired plant operating in the coal fields, but with one operating away from the coal fields and
  48
  in the area where the nuclear plant will be, which will make a big difference.
  My impression is that with an assumption of 5 per cent. interest rates—an assumption open to challenge—an assumption of twenty years' life for the plant and 75 per cent. load factor for the plant—those two latter figures are fairly conservative—we consider that by the early 'sixties the nuclear plant will be marginally more economical than conventional plant. I would say that they would be about the same.
  Mr. A. Woodburn:: Has the right hon. Gentleman compared that plant with the most efficient coal plant or the average? There is a big difference between the modern coal-fired electricity stations and the older ones, as there will be between coal-fired stations and atomic energy stations.
  Mr. Maudling: The right hon. Gentleman is right. One is comparing the costs of nuclear stations installed in a certain position with the cost of installing at the same place the most modern form of conventional plant. Some of the calculations are too fine to be entirely realistic, but the general conclusion that I reach is that by the early 'sixties nuclear investment will compare in economic terms with conventional investment, and we shall then still be at the very beginning of the development of this new form of power generation. The capital cost of creating power from nuclear sources should, over the years, be reduced, and, we would hope, be reduced very substantially.
  I should say a word on the question of oil firing in power stations, which is a matter to which the right hon. Gentleman opposite attaches very considerable importance. In 1955 a plan was introduced for the substantial use of oil in power stations both by arranging for some new stations to be constructed from the start as oil-fired stations and by converting from coal to oil some of the existing coal-fired stations. In the case of the converted stations provision will exist for reconvening back to coal if at any time this were decided to be the right policy.
  In 1955 there was every reason to believe that there would be a shortage of coal for the electricity industry, and, certainly, the production figures in the industry in 1955 and 1956 justified this

  49
  view. Therefore, a plan was formed of conversion to oil which was designed to save 3½ million tons of coal in 1957, rising to 7½ million tons in 1960. In 1957, when we and the industry realised that there was a change in the situation of the supply and demand of electricity from coal, revisions were made in the programme as the result of which the use of coal in the power stations in the 'sixties will be about 3 million tons a year greater than would have been under the original contracts.
  It is not, as far as I can see, possible at this time to go further than that without pressing the electricity authorities to break contracts into which they entered at a time of some difficulty and which they do not wish to break, and which, I am sure from what the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) has said on previous occasions, the House would not wish them to break. It would be a very bad thing if we pressed for the breaking of commercial contracts.
  The oil companies have entered into very substantial commitments on the good faith of these contracts, and they have been very helpful and co-operative in reducing the amount of oil, and already there has been an arrangement for a reduction at an annual rate of 3 million tons of coal equivalent in the amount of oil to be used for the power stations in the early 'sixties. It would be wrong for us to press anyone to break a commercial contract entered into in good faith. In any case, the total fuel consumption of the power stations is already higher than was expected when the 1955 estimates were made.
  In 1958 coal consumption in the power stations fell by a small amount, about 250,000 tons, largely due to a switch to oil, but it is our belief that the trend of consumption of electricity coal will start to move upwards again very soon and will continue upwards throughout the period covered by the Bill, in other words until 1965. Despite the existing oil contracts arrangements, it is the Government's belief that the demand of the power stations for coal will be on a rising curve throughout the next seven years.
  I turn to the question of distribution. Of the capital expenditure involved in the industry, £660 million will be devoted
  50
  to distribution, a larger amount both in absolute terms and in relative terms than was devoted over the last seven years. I think that the House would accept this as being a wise policy. There is no doubt that in catching up with the arrears of generating plant to meet the demand for current there has been a postponement of much work on the distribution side that should have been done. In the opinion of the Council and the Government much reinforcement work which has been postponed must now be speeded up.
  Turning to the new consumers, the main expansion will be in the rural and farming areas. I am glad to say that the 1954 programme of extending electricity to rural areas and the farms is well ahead of schedule, and we now expect that by 1963 87 per cent. of the farms in England and Wales will be connected, as well as 95 per cent. of the houses in rural areas. That will represent an increase over and above the 1954 programme. The House will welcome the fact that the spread of electricity in the rural areas and the farming industry is going ahead so well.
  As I said, no provision is made for any increase in working capital. It is a fact that the calculations of the Electricity Council are that they will not need to increase their working capital net over the next seven years.
  A question to which I should like to refer is that of hire purchase, which interests many hon. Members. As I said, the total amount of working capital for the industry will not increase, but the amount of working capital devoted to hire-purchase finance will increase. Now that the restrictions on hire purchase have been removed, it is right that the nationalised industries should be allowed to take part in the general expansion of hire-purchase credit. I do not think that anyone will contest that.
  Mr. Nabarro: My right hon. Friend is very optimistic.
  Mr. Maudling: I am always optimistic that my hon. Friend will see reason, but sometimes I am disappointed.
  The Government's view is that as a general expansion in the volume of hire-purchase credit is taking place it is reasonable that the nationalised industries should share in it. It might be a

  51
  point of principle that the nationalised industries should not have hire-purchase agreements, but as long as they are selling by hire purchase they should not be subject to restrictions which do not apply to others.
  Mr. Nabarro: Whether or not they have hire-purchase arrangements, is there any objection to their sub-contracting their financial arrangements, or should they always be found to finance their own hire purchase?
  Mr. Maudling: It is a matter for the commercial judgment of the boards as long as they are in the business.
  I think that the amount of capital devoted to hire-purchase finance should be subject to control by the Minister just as much as the capital devoted to fixed assets. The same principle must apply. If the Minister is supposed to control, as he does, the amount of capital devoted to fixed assets, he should equally control the amount of capital devoted to working purposes.
  It has been decided that the amount of additional capital required by the industry for hire-purchase finance should be obtained not from the Exchequer, but from normal commercial sources, which, after all, is the way the industry normally obtains its capital for working capital purposes. At present, the total amount to be authorised is being discussed between the industry and the Government. In settling the amount of the increase in the authorised borrowings of the industry for this purpose, the Government will have two principles in mind. The first is that there should not be competition in credit terms between the gas and the electricity industries. I think that the House will, on the whole, agree with that. There has often been complaint of a lack of co-ordination between those two industries. It would be a pity to have the two competing with each other on the basis of credit terms.
  Secondly, we feel that nationalised industries which, by reason of Treasury guarantee, have access to an amount of bank finance to which the ordinary trader cannot have access, should not act as pacemakers in this matter to industry as a whole. There is no doubt that the granting of excessive consumer credit is commercially unsound. The nationalised
  52
  industries will, therefore, have regard to general commercial standards in this matter.
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the actual proportion of borrowing for hire-purchase purposes is a very small part of the total capital borrowings by the electricity boards?
  Mr. Maudling: I quite agree, but I do not see what point that argument makes. Whether it is small or large, it is right that, like all other forms of borrowing, it should be subject to Ministerial approval. The principle I have laid down is that there should be expansion of hire-purchase by the nationalised industries as by private industries and that that should be based on sound commercial principles and on the principle that they should not use their access to bank finance for going beyond what is commercially sound in credit terms.
  Mr. Woodburn: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that this is not altogether a matter of finance and that it is also concerned with improving the homes of the people? Whether people can buy gas or electric cookers often depends on the credit terms. If the boards can persuade people to buy electric cookers and similar appliances, that will be of assistance not only to the boards but to housewives. Will the right hon. Gentleman keep the housewives' point of view in mind when he is considering this mere financial jugglery about credit terms?
  Mr. Maudling: This "financial jugglery about credit terms" is more important than the right hon. Gentleman suggests. However, we have recognised the importance of hire purchase in improving living standards by relaxing the statutory control of credit terms. We think that credit buying can be exceedingly good, provided it does not go beyond what is commercially wise and prudent. The principle should be to extend hire-purchase credit to the extent which sound commercial principles would justify, but not beyond that. In practice, there will not be much difference about that point.
  Mr. Alfred Robens: Has the right hon. Gentleman decided the sum beyond which the electricity boards may not borrow in relation to hire purchase? If so, what is the amount?
  Mr. Maudling: I cannot have made myself clear. I said that the industry and the Minister were discussing the amount of additional capital which should be available for that purpose. The figure has not yet been settled. It is a matter for discussion with the Minister, as much as the provision of capital for a new generating station. It is exactly the same in principle as other borrowings and the figure is still under negotiation.
  I have tried to set before the House the picture of the demand which the industry is facing and the reasons why it will need these large sums of additional capital. There are two further matters with which I should deal. The first is whether the money will be well used, and the second is whether more could not be provided by way of self-finance.
  Looking at the statistics of the electricity industry over the last ten years or so, one can show a steady increase in thermal efficiency in the first place and, in the second place, a very interesting price comparison in that fuel costs have risen by 74 per cent., retail prices by 62 per cent., the cost of generation by 39 per cent., and the price of electricity by 34 per cent. All of that shows prima facie a good record. However, the fallacy of all nationalised industries is that one never knows to what extent the statistical improvements are due to the natural development of technical factors and to what extent they are due to good management. One can never be sure whether an enterprise has done the best it could have done unless one can test its performance against someone else. That is a simple fact. The best alternative in these cases is an examination by an independent body, as in the case of the Herbert Committee.
  The House as a whole will recognise that although it commented on certain weaknesses in the industry, the Herbert Committee gave considerable commendation to the industry as a whole. The legislation passed by the House in 1957 was designed to remedy weaknesses in the industry's organisation and I can say with confidence that the statistical record and the investigation made by an impartial body suggest that though the industry is not porfect—and no industry is perfect—it has a good record. The new legislation which was recently passed should enable it to give even better service to
  54
  the public in future than it has given in the past.
  Self-finance is a very important matter. Assuming that the industry is right in planning to expend large sums of money in new generating plant and new distribution plant, what percentage of that money should be raised internally and what percentage should be borrowed from the public or the Government? The industry has a good record over the last ten years. The percentage of capital outlay which it has financed from internal savings has been rising. The average percentage over the last ten years has been 33 per cent. and the estimate over the next seven years is 46 per cent. The Electricity Council's figure of 48 per cent. is based on a certain difference in accountancy principles and there are strong arguments for it. However, the more austere, although not necessarily more correct, figure is 46 per cent.
  That is a big increase in the total amount of internal financing and the proportion is now fairly high. It is not at all easy to decide the principles on which a publicly-owned industry should determine the amount of its expansion which should be financed from internal sources. This matter was discussed at great length by the Herbert Committee, which concluded that in principle the industry was working on the right lines and that, in practice, it was following those principles.
  Technically speaking, the industry provides its depreciation on an historic cost basis, but it takes out special revenue reserves in order to increase that, so that by and large the industry is financing its replacement costs out of revenue. In other words, by and large it is providing and setting aside enough out of its revenues to keep in existence and at full efficiency the amount of generating capacity which it has at any given moment.
  Over and above that, it may be making some small provisions, once again in line with the principles of the Herbert Committee. Compared with other nationalised industries, the electricity industry can claim a good record in providing from its own revenues enough for full replacement of its plant. To go further than that would give rise to many difficulties. Any revenue the industry earns over and above its depreciation provisions is subject to tax, as is the revenue earned by any private business.

  55
  Therefore, any amount ploughed back into expansion as such would be after the deduction of tax. There is a good deal in the argument of the Herbert Committee that for a publicly-owned industry to finance expansion out of current revenue on a large scale is putting the burden of future consumption upon the present-day consumer.
  These arguments are very complex and not very easy to determine, but as a matter of common sense and common practice I suggest that in increasing its proportion of internal finance, as it is proposing to do and as it has done over recent years, the industry is measuring up to what is commercially sound and practicably sensible for a nationalised industry. To go further and to provide even more of its capital expenditure out of net revenue would involve increases in the current price of electricity which would certainly not be popular—which is not so important—and which would not be economically sound. This is a matter on which it is impossible to be dogmatic. All one can do is to put the principles on which the industry is working and suggest that in the view of the Government, by and large, those are sound principles.
  I hope that I have said enough to commend the Bill to the House. I have tried to outline the general programme of the development of the industry based on estimates of demand over the next seven years. I have suggested that those estimates of demand are sound and that the amount set out to meet that demand is reasonable. I finish as I started by emphasising that the Bill does not issue any money from public or private sources to the electricity industry. It increases the authorised total borrowing limit within which issues of money will be made over the next seven years, subject to strict Ministerial and strict Parliamentary control. By passing the Bill, the House will make proper provision for the expansion of an industry which is serving the country well and which must continue to serve the country well if our economy as a whole is to prosper.
  4.32 p.m.
  Mr. Alfred Robens: From this side of the House we cannot help noticing how embarrassed Ministers are in speaking about nationalised industries. On every occasion that the Paymaster-General
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  has spoken about a nationalised industry, gas, electricity or coal, he has had to pay fulsome compliments to the industry concerned. More than that, he has had to produce figures which have proved how efficiently those industries have been serving the nation. We have always tried to save him and his two predecessors the utmost embarrassment by refraining from cheering too loudly, because that has always brought a counter-attack from the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) and other back benchers.
  On this as on previous occasions, the right hon. Gentleman has had to fall back on his old theory that one cannot discover whether a monopoly nationalised industry is a success because one has nothing by which to test it. But all the inquiries into nationalised industries have shown them to be efficient and to be serving the nation well. When compared with industries of a similar character in almost every country in Europe or in the United States, nationalised industries have stood up to the test.
  We give general approval to the Bill, which we shall examine in greater detail in Committee. We approve it because it enables greater borrowing to be available to the industry at a time when we feel that there should be an even greater use of electricity and power in industry We shall never raise the standard of living to the height to which we know it can be raised, both here and abroad, unless we use considerably more power in industry than we are doing today. Most economists who have studied the American industrial scene and compared it with our own place tremendous emphasis upon the amount of horse-power at the elbow of the worker in the States vis-à-vis his British contemporary. Therefore, speaking on behalf of my hon. Friends, I can say that we want to see the highest possible level of investment in this industry, together with a tremendous Government drive to persuade industry in general to use much more electricity and more mechanical handling for which power is required.
  The right hon. Gentleman has given us some information about hire purchase, which we were rather interested to hear. We had understood that his hon. Friends sitting behind him had decided to make this the basis of one of their most vicious attacks upon him. We will help him. It is not the first time that hon. Members opposite have made vicious attacks upon

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  Ministers in the position of the right hon. Gentleman; in fact, they "saw off" two previous Ministers, and the Government became so frightened about their "seeing off" a third that they decided to put that third Minister in another place, out of harm's way. The right hon. Gentleman, whose main task is not in this field but in European matters, is safe and sound, because he has not to answer exactly for his noble Friend in another place, who is the political head of the Department concerned.
  I do not quarrel with any of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about the Government having the right to sit down with the electricity boards or the Electricity Council to determine the amount to be used for hire-purchase financing, just as the Government sit down with them to discuss the amount of capital investment for generation. One can see no argument against that, as a principle. I also take the view that a State-owned enterprise should not be put at a greater advantage in this field than those who have to obtain their capital from elsewhere. At present, however—with probably one or two exceptions, which I understand are to be brought into line—I believe that no better terms are being offered by electricity boards than by private enterprise.
  If there is not a prudent financing of hire purchase the Minister is quite right to sit down with the area boards and say, "The capital raised on the authority of the State should not be used in an imprudent financial way." I do not think that anybody would quarrel with that. But we would very much resent any diminution of the right of the industry to sell appliances on hire-purchase terms. That would be a most retrograde step.
  The right hon. Gentleman has been telling the House of the importance of the load factor in this industry, and it is right to emphasise that it is upon the selling of appliances that the load factor depends, and the ability of the industry to sell its cookers and water heaters in vast quantities because of the facilities it has available should in no way be mitigated. This is one of the ways in which the boards can influence their load factor, which the right hon. Gentleman has proved to us this afternoon is so important in relation to the financial outturn of the industry.
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  While accepting in principle the things which I have indicated, I hope that when the right hon. Gentleman sits down with the electricity boards—as I understand he now is—to determine the amount they may use for hire-purchase finance, he will not regard his task as one of pruning that amount to a certain figure to placate his hon. Friends, who will be coming to this charge later in the day. I hope that, instead, he will ensure that sufficient funds are available for the electricity undertakings to provide the maximum service to housewives and those people in industry who wish to take advantage of hire-purchase arrangements. As the matter is now one between the Government and the boards, the right hon. Gentleman will not object if, at a suitable time, we put down a Question as to how these arrangements are being made.
  The right hon. Gentleman has told us exactly how the industry has done in the matter of self-financing; I think that it has financed itself to the extent of about 42 per cent. I do not know what the figure should be, but if the industry were self-financing to the tune of 50 per cent. I suppose that that would be as much as we should expect. I do not think it right to place an undue burden on the present consumers for the benefit of those who are to come later. We must be prudent. We must pay in our generation what is right, but the burden should not be too great, and I would have thought that a 50 per cent. self-financing was prudent, and about right.
  I would also hope that the electricity undertakings, together with the Minister, would look for their additional revenues not through increased electricity prices but from economies, some of which the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned this afternoon. In the next few years, as a result of work which is now and has for the past ten years been taking place, there will be greater economies. Therefore, if prices remain the same, and there is no large increase in overhead costs and charges, it will be possible to raise the amount of self-financing from the present 42 per cent. to about 50 per cent. without placing an undue burden upon present consumers.
  I welcome the view of the right hon. Gentleman that competition between the gas and electricity industries should be fair in the matter of hire purchase, and

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  that there should be some uniformity in terms. Hon. Members on this side of the House have never taken the view that there should not be fair competition between the two industries. It would seem that it would be reasonable to bring them into line in the matter of hire-purchase arrangements.
  Speaking in terms of investment over the next seven years, which may now amount to over £2,000 million, it is fair to try to find out whether or not the money which has already been borrowed has been used wisely. We have been aided in this task of examination by many of the figures given by the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon. He referred to the outstanding fact that the average cost per kilowatt today, which is £50, is no greater than it was ten years ago. When he said that, the cheers from hon. Members on this side were, unfortunately, rather too loud. They caused the Minister to add that the private manufacturer of appliances, generating sets, and so on, had been as much responsible as had the electricity boards. The truth is that everybody has contributed to this situation.
  The right hon. Gentleman should understand that the manufacturers of plant have been put in a far more favourable position under public ownership than they ever were under the separate, privately and municipally owned enterprises. They have been able to simplify plant design, which is a considerable factor when one considers the enormous amount of work on the drawing boards. If the fancies of 200 or 300 different engineers have to be considered, work on the drawing board takes very much longer, and costs go up. Today, plant design can be simplified, and because of the finance which the publicly owned enterprises now have at their command they have been able to go in for much larger sets, which is the main cause of the maintenance of the average price per kilowatt remaining at only £50.
  It is interesting to see how the size of sets has been developed. Ten years ago the average size of sets was 60,000 kilowatts, but today private manufacturers of equipment are being given orders to manufacture sets of 550,000 kilowatts. Without these orders the manufacturers would not have been able to bring down their costs. Therefore, although I pay tribute to the great engineering companies,
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  and the skill of the engineers and craftsmen which goes to make up these enormous generating plants, there is no doubt that the public ownership of the electricity industry has been the means by which private enterprise has been able to be more efficient than it was in the old days of municipal and private ownership.
  It is worth looking at some other figures which demonstrate the continued efficiency of this publicly owned enterprise. We can look at the number of workers engaged in the enterprise, and see what happens when production is increased. Ten years ago 2·7 men were employed per 1,000 kilowatts of plant capacity. Today, the number is 1·73 per 1,000 kilowatts of plant capacity. We have had a tremendous increase in production, and a much smaller amount of manpower to operate the plant.
  The Minister referred to the question of thermal efficiency in one way, and I want to refer to it in another. Ten years ago we consumed 1½ lb. of fuel per unit sent out; today we consume 1·2 lb. In ten years this has saved 41 million tons of coal, of a value of about £147 million. That is another very good indication of the efficiency of the larger units which public enterprise has been able to bring about.
  The distribution and transmission side of the industry also shows tremendous progress. I will not weary the House with the figures, but they are available. What is important to note is the inauguration of the super grid, which in itself will save about £10 million each year, because it lessens the capital expenditure in plant capacity and reduces operating costs. The super grid, which is now 726 route miles long, has another 1,096 miles in commission. Another interesting factor is the cross-Channel link, which, again, should save money to the extent of about £200,000 per annum. All these factors show that there has been no lack of initiative or drive on the part of this undertaking and those who manage it.
  The right hon. Gentleman showed us that despite all the money that has to be spent because of the high capital cost of the industry its efficiency has meant that prices have risen only by about 35 per cent. while general costs have risen by over 50 per cent.
  Part of the case made on behalf of public ownership concerned the necessity

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  to provide rural areas with electricity. Hon. Members on this side of the House said that unless we had larger units, which would be prepared to spread out in the rural areas, or had the authority to do so, we should never get rural electrification with the speed which was so necessary for the benefit of the countryside, from the point of view not only of domestic amenities but of the power to be used on modern farms. Rural development has gone on apace, much more quickly than was ever estimated. I understand that by 1963 about 87 per cent. of farms and 95 per cent. of rural houses will have been connected. That is a great achievement, and I doubt whether any other country in the world, including the United States, can say that it has accomplished so much.
  At the same time, the amount of energy consumed in rural areas has been shown to be very disappointing. The right hon. Gentleman says that the consumption will double in seven years, but that is not quite enough. There has been high capital cost—no one quarrels about bearing it—in providing amenities and power to our farmsteads. It is highly important that those who receive this new power should be encouraged to use it rather more than it is being used at present. The right hon. Gentleman ought not to be satisfied with doubling consumption in seven years.
  One of the area boards has analysed the consumption of 10,000 farms in its area on the basis of electricity used. The analysis showed that 18 per cent. of those farms used fewer than five units quarterly. There has been a joke running around since the days when electricity was put in about the old lady at the end cottage who used to switch the light on so that she could see to light her paraffin oil lamp. It looks, from the five units quarterly, as though that sort of thing is happening.
  The analysis also showed that 50 per cent. of the farms used fewer than 100 units quarterly. Those figures are surprising for a town or city dweller. If our electricity usage were only about 100 units per quarter we should wonder what had happened. An inspector would be round to check the meter. A further figure was that 60 per cent. used fewer than 200 units quarterly.
  This position is not good enough. This is where the Government must help. On
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  the domestic side it is obvious that the rural housewife will want the same amenities as the housewife in a town or city. She will be encouraged to buy electrical appliances, through the hire-purchase arrangements, to make her housework less heavy, and she will be able to see at the agricultural shows and fairs what appliances are available. It is on the power side that the Government ought to help to stimulate expansion of the use of electricity in the rural areas.
  There is difficulty here for the farmer. Through the various arrangements made by the Government the farmer is able to secure finance for capital investment of many different kinds, but he is not able to secure for his movable assets the same generous loans or capital assistance which he can get for other projects. The Government have tackled this matter in industry by having two industrial finance corporations, one for smaller borrowers and one for larger borrowers.
  I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman would consider it worth while to enable one of these finance corporations—or perhaps a separate finance corporation—to be available for use by farmers for the purchase of movable assets which are not covered by the easy borrowing facilities in other directions. To provide loans of this character for the electrical machinery that farmers need for the improvement of their farms might be the best way to get a much greater use of electricity in rural areas. I would be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would give thought to this suggestion.
  We are dealing with a very big generating programme, covering 38 new power stations, which will include five nuclear power stations to be commissioned by 1963 and to provide 12¼ million kilowatts of power. I do not want to say anything about conventional stations, but to refer to the nuclear power stations.
  At present there is an arrangement for about 5 million or 6 million kilowatts to be provided by 12 or 14 nuclear power stations by 1966. Originally, it was a year earlier, but the date was delayed for twelve months because of cuts in capital investment. I believe that there are four groups—it may be five; I have an idea there is an additional one—in a consortium. Who determines whether a

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  consortium shall be allowed? I know that this means access to information some of which might be regarded as secret. Who determines whether official permission or authority is given to a consortium? Upon what basis is the decision made?
  I have noted one British firm which is able to build power stations abroad and which, I am advised, has been refused authority or permission to form a consortium to tender for nuclear power stations. I can well understand that a great deal of misuse might be made of scientific manpower and research if a very large number of groups were enabled to build nuclear power stations. The Government may have come to some conclusion about whether the number is to be four, five or six.
  Is there a number? If there is, what is it? What are the terms upon which groups who feel that they can build nuclear power stations and have the capacity to do so are permitted to do it? Is there a closed shop which nobody else may enter? There may be a very good case for saying that four or five groups are adequate and that there is no point in having a tremendous amount of skilled manpower for the building of stations if the work is not available.
  It is important not merely because of our home programme that we should encourage big contractors and others who feel that they are in the position to build nuclear power stations. Power stations must be one of the great exports to which this nation must turn. We have come to the conclusion that we cannot expect coal and cotton to remain the traditional exports that they were fifty years ago and that we have to look to new things like electronics. I would think that nuclear power stations came into this category. It is important that British industry should be in a position to compete with the Americans. I understand that at present the Americans give away a certain amount of fuel for a year for every new power station, as an extra gimmick. That is the sort of thing that British manufacturers are up against, but we should encourage them to go into this field of activity.
  It may well be that the number of groups within the present tendering arrangement is more than, or is as much
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  as, the Minister wants. Some of us would like to know whether there is now a closed shop, or whether other companies who can make a contribution to this development will be permitted to join the groups that already exist. It is important that those who have the knowledge and experience to sell the British power stations abroad should be able to do so.
  Mr. Maudling: I agree very much with what the right hon. Gentleman says. The Atomic Energy Authority wants to help these firms, but the problem is always one of diverting the activities of the Authority from new research into training British industrial firms. That is one of the limiting factors.
  Mr. Robens: I see the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making, but I think he would agree that we have to give every British firm which feels it can build power stations abroad the opportunity of training its people in order to do so. The particular firm I mentioned has secured contracts to build power stations abroad, but it is having to do so on the American pattern, with American patents and licences. I do not think that that is as good as if the same British firm could be using British patents and the British system.
  In connection with the nuclear power programme, what does the right hon. Gentleman envisage for the years beyond 1966? I understand that we are to use conventional stations to the limit of the anticipated coal resources and then we shall have to fill in a very large gap of power that will be required and cannot be filled by the use of coal. That must be divided between nuclear stations and oil stations. I should like to know what the policy of the Government is in this matter. Do they intend to develop nuclear power stations mainly and place less reliance on oil, or to provide more oil-fired power stations in the years beyond 1966? While one does not want to debate this matter at great length today, it is a question of great importance. I should like to see the emphasis, after the use of coal in conventional stations, on nuclear power stations rather than on the use of oil and I hope that would be Government policy.
  We have the programme up to 1966, but I do not believe that we ought to wait

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  very much longer before we get an estimate—which would not be binding to the minutest detail—of the forward building after that period for another seven years. If the emphasis is to be on nuclear power it would be necessary to bring in a lot more trained people. The building of these power stations is very expensive and it is still obviously experimental. Changes have been made in almost every station. Those engaged in their building ought to know what their future is and whether the programme is to go on for the next twenty years, or whether we are to use oil rather than nuclear power. They ought to know because there is a great deal of research to be done, at tremendous expense, by those in the consortium and only if there is a continued programme for nuclear power station building will that expense be justified.
  If there is not the continuation then the higher costs involved in anticipation of a rather larger nuclear programme will fall on the present programme and add to its costs. I do not expect the right hon. Gentleman to give an answer on this forward policy at this stage, but I hope that he will give it consideration and that he feels we should not be too long now—perhaps twelve months as a maximum—before we get some idea of the future programme of power station building.
  One thing I am bound to say will. I am sure, be expanded by my hon. Friends. I repeat that we cannot break commercial contracts, and that goes for oil contracts, but I still feel, as I felt when I expressed myself in the House on this matter before the Recess, that, without breaking contracts, on the basis of normal commercial relations, if the Government so willed they could secure the reversion back to coal of some of the power stations now burning oil. It is a scandal that we should have large stocks of small coal and that the Government have done nothing to use their influence with the oil companies. They are a principal shareholder in at least one company and there would be a fair amount of weight given to what they had to say in getting this reversion.
  The right hon. Gentleman is looking at me as though I were not strictly on the ball, but I am using his own phrases. In the last debate he was careful to say that it was not the Government who made these contracts but the Electricity
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  Authority, as it then was. I am saying that if the Government, in his words, had nothing to do with these contracts, here is a stage in which the social consequences of using oil instead of coal are damaging not just for the individuals concerned, but for the future of the coal industry. It has disturbed the feeling of many young people that there was a future in coal and they are beginning to wonder whether there is a future in the industry. We may get a very sharp reduction in recruitment of mining engineers unless we can get a more optimistic spirit back into the mining industry.
  I say again, as firmly as I can, that in my view the right hon. Gentleman would be wise now to see whether a gesture could be made—although I know the difficulties—for the reversion of one, two or some of these power stations which were converted to oil back, to the use of small coal.
  Mr. Maudling: The right hon. Member must not neglect the fact that already there has been a very big gesture, involving, as I think I said, an additional consumption of 3 million tons of coal in the 'sixties, because some stations which were to run on oil will run on coal. There has been a big reduction in the consumption of oil rather than of coal by agreement with the oil companies, who have been very helpful in this matter. The right hon. Member should not neglect to mention what has been done.
  Mr. Robens: I do not wish to neglect what has been done and I understand full well the change which has been made in the arrangements. The change made in the arrangements was for oil to be consumed in the 'sixties, but I am speaking about unburnt small coal in 1959.
  I say again that, while the oil companies have been generous in stretching their contracts, they have not been burning less oil this year or last year. They are burning the oil for which they contracted. The oil they are not going to burn in 1960 is oil which is still in the ground in the Middle East and which has not yet been extracted. The Government, if they so desired, could use their influence and at least make a gesture about reconverting some of the oil-burning stations back to coal to meet this very difficult problem in the mining industry.
  I will finish my speech with a reference to the load factor. The change in the

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  bulk supply tariff may have a big effect on this. In the last debate the hon. Member for Kidderminster said that the difference of 1 per cent. in the load factor meant £21 million worth of capital investment lying idle and not being used. I should have thought that there needs now to be a tremendous amount of research done on the question of storing energy. If, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the limit we shall ever get to and the best that the Americans have been able to do is 60 per cent., that has been done only by the balancing of the use of electricity through the 24 hours. If we could reach a stage in which we could store electricity that would mean a colossal saving. I do not believe enough money is being spent nor enough scientists being engaged on that sort of project.
  Mr. Nabarro: The right hon. Member has kindly quoted me, but he will remember that I went on to say that the habit in this country was of chasing the peak load and failing to recognise the enormous possibilities of economy in capital investment by a proper diversification of load, which, equally, is a matter of Government policy as of Central Electricity Generating Board policy, and is a much more rewarding exercise than further research into electricity storage.
  Mr. Robens: I should doubt that and would cross swords with the hon. Member on that. I believe that storage would represent the greatest possible saving. If one were able to store electricity it would mean that the most efficient stations would be working 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, subject to being out for repair, and so on. That would bring really cheap electricity. I believe that this work ought to be done.
  Secondly, how much work has been done in finding a means of transmitting electricity without the very elaborate and expensive equipment we have at present? I think I am right in saying that probably half of the capital expenditure is in the distribution of electricity once it has been produced. A number of my scientific friends say that this is not an impossible task, but that a tremendous amount of research would have to be done upon it. In these two fields, scientific research is absolutely essential. The Government should stimulate this, and indeed take part in it. They should find a method
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  of storing electricity and see whether we can find a way of transmitting electrical energy without the elaborate transmission arrangements we have at present.
  We give the Bill our approval and we are glad this afternoon once again to have heard a Conservative Minister praise the efficiency of a publicly-owned enterprise.
  5.10 p.m
  Mr. Nigel Birch: I hope that the House will not look upon the passing of this Bill purely as a formality. It seems to me to raise in an acute form the still unsolved problem of governmental and Parliamentary control over the capital expenditure of the nationalised industries. In what I have to say, I am in no sense attacking the management of the electricity industry. My own guess—and it can only be a guess—is that it is probably more efficient in management than any other nationalised industry.
  I concede at once that the capita] demands of the industry are necessarily and rightly very great. Indeed, so far as capital hunger goes, electricity is in a class by itself. Up to 31st March, 1956, when separate issues on behalf of nationalised industries ceased, the electricity industry had already borrowed £200 million more than all the other nationalised industries put together. Today that sum must be much greater. Now we are asked to sanction a very large capital programme, £2,130 million, of which £1,150 million is to be borrowed. I think that it is most important that the House should realise what a heavy burden upon our economy is the financing of the nationalised industries and how much it adds to the difficulty of controlling our affairs.
  In the Budget of 1956, a change was made, and instead of the industries borrowing under their own names, money was to be issued directly from the Exchequer and would appear below the line in the Budget. That was done simply as a matter of management and convenience. It was found much easier to sell direct Government obligations and Government guaranteed stocks, and also the funding operations of the Government were made easier because the issues could be made exactly when wanted. There is an admirably bland comment in "Power for the Future" on this matter.
  Referring to this change, it said that up to the time when it took place it had

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  been practicable for the industry to borrow for its long-term capital needs by the issue of British electricity stock. It was perfectly practicable for the industry. What it did was to go to the Treasury and say, "We want £300 million", or whatever it was; an issue would be made and it would get its £300 million. A difficulty arose then because, in fact, when such issues were made, more often than not, subscriptions from the public were negligible and virtually the whole issue had to be taken by what are known as the Authority, and the stock had to be peddled out over a long period of time.
  These amounts are very large. I calculate that the net borrowing by the nationalised industries in the current financial year is £478 million. Next year, presumably, it will be quite appreciably larger. It is very difficult indeed to find genuine investors who wish to buy longdated Government or Government guaranteed securities to that amount. What happens? There are three possible consequences of these difficulties.
  The first is that the long-term interest rate may have to be put up, so that it is higher than one would like it to be, in order to try to attract buyers of such stock. Secondly—and this has happened in every recent Budget—taxation has to be higher than it otherwise would have been in order to finance the amount of this stock for which one could not find genuine buyers. Thirdly, if there is a miscalculation of how much stock can be sold, which very often happens, the capital expenditure has to be financed by Treasury bills, which is really the printing press, and that is inflation. One may either get higher interest rates or higher taxation or inflation or, more generally, all three.
  I believe that it may well be that in future years the financing of the nationalised industries may be a major factor in the whole of our monetary policy. It is for the reasons that I have given that we should be more than careful about sanctioning borrowing and most careful to see, so far as we can, that such money is not wastefully employed.
  That brings me to the question of the period for which we are asked to sanction this borrowing. We are asked to sanction borrowing until 31st March, 1965. If this Parliament lasts for its full time and the next Parliament lasts for
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  its full time, it could be that those borrowing powers would be exhausted in the next Parliament, but in this century no two peacetime Parliaments have lasted their full time and therefore it seems to me to be in the highest degree probable that this money will run out before the end of the next Parliament.
  Therefore, we are being asked to sanction an amount of money on so vast a scale as to affect the whole of our economy and the level of our taxation over this long period. That seems to me to be something very near the abdication of the traditional rights of Parliament to control expenditure.
  The period has been defended on three grounds by my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General. The first ground is that administrative control is retained by the Treasury and the Minister of Power because the Treasury may say, "You are spending too much or too little; you must alter your plan." That is true so far as it goes in respect of administrative control. He also said that there is Parliamentary control because the global amount for the nationalised industries appears in the Finance Bill. If I may say so to him with great respect, I think that he has got hold of the wrong end the stick. What I think he is referring to is Section 36 of last year's Finance Act. The object of that Section was to carry on the provision made about borrowing by nationalised industries which were first enacted in 1956—to carry that on for a year while the Chancellor of the Exchequer was making up his mind. If my right hon. Friend will look at the previous year's Finance Bill, he will find that no such Clause came in at all and there was no chance on that Finance Bill of voting on the amounts of money to be allocated to nationalised industries.
  The third argument, and the one on which the most weight was put, seemed to be highly inconsistent with the other two. The third argument is that seven years is the minimum period for efficient planning. That argument must mean that plant must be ordered seven years ahead and that it would be wrong to plan or order in advance of the full amount being authorised by Parliament.
  But is that so? After all, we are told in the documents supporting the Bill that the existing amount of money is running

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  out, has very nearly run out and practically all of it is hypothecated. Has planning and ordering therefore stopped? It would be very wrong if it had, and I do not for a moment believe that it has. Every Government Department budgets on a yearly basis. Many of them carry out great capital works and great investment projects, and they are bound to order and plan ahead of the financial provisions. I therefore cannot think that this argument can be advanced very seriously. The real argument is the argument of convenience, it is done in the interests of what Mr. Osbert Lancaster described as
  "true bureaucracy, as we in the West understand it."
  In any case, can we be so certain that the electricity industry can see clearly ahead for the whole of the seven years—so clearly that the House will certainly not want to revise the plan and to vote more money or less money? The prospectus, "Power for the Future," is vague enough. As the Economist very rightly pointed out, we are not even told how much generating capacity it is expected will be in commission after the expenditure of the £2,130 million.
  Several hon. Members have mentioned the load factor, which is the most vital thing of all in the economics of any system. There was an argument between my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) and my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General as to whether the load factor was 46·8; per cent. and slightly improving or 43·1; per cent. and getting slightly worse. I am not concerned to argue that point. All I would rub in—and my right hon. Friend mentioned it—is that in America the load factor is very much higher. My right hon. Friend said it is 60 per cent. My information is that in 1956 it was 64·4 per cent. In any event, it is higher in America than it is here. Of course, the conditions are different and it is very likely that we cannot reach their level, but the point is that in America they have to raise their own money. They do not have it poured down their throats. They therefore nave this tremendous incentive all the time to drive ahead on every conceivable plan to improve their load factor.
  Look at the doubts about the future of atomic plants. I do not think we can
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  now say that we know all the answers for seven years ahead. All we can say with certainty is that in a few years' time —I do not know how many—many of the present plants will be looked upon as impossibly out of date and capital consuming, as well as very doubtfully economic, as my right hon. Friend admitted. Who knows what is the life of the fuel elements in these plants? What about the effects on the economics of the assumed price of uranium and plutonium, both of which very largely depend upon military plans—and nothing could be more difficult to predict than military plans over the next seven years?
  We are told nothing in these recent documents about what are the assumed interest rates on which these forward plans are being made. If we are building an atomic plant at a capital expenditure of two-and-a-half or three times that of a normal station, the rate of interest is clearly vital. I would say that the House ought to be very careful indeed before it votes this money, because it may well want to look again at these plans long before the seven years period is up.
  What we are up against in all these questions of the control of the capital of nationalised industries is what was done in the 1945 Parliament by the Labour Party. They came into power thinking that nationalisation was the answer to everything, and they dived straight into it. The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), who was in the Chamber a moment ago but who is not here now, told us, with that frankness which so much endears him, at any rate to his political opponents, that when he arrived at the Ministry of Fuel and Power he was slightly surprised to find that no one had thought at all about any of the problems involved in nationalising an industry. I remember that when we were in opposition, night after night we used to pose all these difficulties. We used to point out exactly what would happen—in fact what did happen—but the larger the difficulty and the more impossible hon. Members opposite found it to answer, the more invariably they simply applied their majority and passed on to the next point. Their mood was that it was slightly indecent to criticise or question nationalisation at all. There is a poem by John Betjeman called "The Planster's Vision" which very much expresses the mood of

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  the time. I will quote the first and last lines of the second stanza:
  "I have a vision of the future, Chum,
  No Right! No wrong! all's perfect ever more."
  That was very much the spirit in which hon. Members went into these things, without thinking.
  Curiously enough, one of them at any rate had thought beforehand about it. Even more curiously, it was the right hon. Member for Lewis-ham, South (Mr. H. Morrison). In 1933 he wrote a most interesting book called Socialisation and Transport, about setting up the London Passenger Transport Board. As hon. Members may recall, no Government finance whatever was guaranteed to the London Passenger Transport Board. The right hon. Gentleman wrote:
  "The Government did not wish to do this"
  —that is, supply State guaranteed funds—
  "for it might well have encouraged a spirit of slackness, or even recklessness, on the part of the Board in matters of management, on the part of the travelling public in demanding lower fares and uneconomic facilities, and on the part of the workpeople in asking for big concessions as to conditions of labour; all might be tempted to say, 'Well, after all, the Treasury is behind us' …. This is a dangerous frame of mind."
  How right he was. Unfortunately, in the press of his many duties in 1945, when he was drawing up these nationalisation Bills, he did not have the leisure to reread his book. Had he done so he would have found there, in those few objections, a complete answer to all the nonsense of nationalisation.
  Even so, I think he missed one of the points—and I do not blame him for it. He missed the extraordinary difficulty to our economy which the control of this mass of capital expenditure entails when there are a large number of nationalised industries. There is almost always capital hunger. We live in a capital-hungry generation. Every underdeveloped country in the world wants capital and wants loans. Investment in this country is running at a higher rate than before the war. All the new inventions demand new money. Any business man who could get a guarantee of money for several years ahead would be in clover. As T. S. Eliot wrote in a poem:
  "I shall not want capital in heaven,
  For I shall meet Sir Alfred Mond,
  We two shall lie together
  Wrapped in a 5 per cent. Exchequer bond."
  That is a very moving thought.
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  In the earthly paradise prepared by Lord Mills for the Electricity Council he has said that nothing less than £1,150 would do to stuff the enormous cushion on which they are to lie. How is this sum arrived at? This is the crux of the matter. Any hon. Member who wishes to study the economics of nationalisation seriously would do well to read a recently published book by Mr. R. Kelf-Cohen, who was until lately a senior official in the Ministry of Power.
  We start off with the industry itself. There we have a number of extremely able, enthusiastic technical people all wanting to give fine service, all wanting to expand and all wanting to be quite certain that their own department is not going to let the show down. Gradually, all these claims are added together. I am, of course, not saying in any way that there is no internal check by the area boards and the Electricity Council. The point I am making is that in that industry there is not a single man who has the slightest responsibility for raising the money.
  The vast total sum is added up and it is then presented to the Ministry of Power. What does the Ministry do? The electricity department consists of a handful of officials with no technical advice whatever. All those people can do is to argue a little and to look at the total. They have no means whatever of saying whether the demands are justified. Then the sum goes up to the Treasury. Again, no technical assistance and an even smaller staff. They may say on general economic grounds, "You cannot have as much money," but they have no means of knowing whether the demands are justified or not.
  Contrast that with the situation before the war, when there were 562 electricity authorities, two-thirds of them municipal, and demands for capital on the distribution side came up before literally thousands of councillors and directors all of whom were responsible for finding the money. They therefore asked the right questions. On top of them—this is the most important point—were the Electricity Commissioners, who had to approve all plans not only for distribution but also for generation.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: Is the hon. Member therefore suggesting—because an hon. Member on his side supports the view—that it would be logical

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  to go back to the system of denationalisation and decentralisation?
  Mr. Birch: That was not the solution that I was going to propose, although it might well be the best one.
  The point I am making is that in those days there was both lay and technical supervision by people fully responsible. Now there is nothing outside the industry itself. The Ministry of Power and the Treasury have no real knowledge. Everything is done simply upon the ipse dixit of the industry itself. I think that to be a profoundly unsatisfactory situation leading as it does and is bound to do in the end, and as it has done in many of these industries, to slackness and waste.
  What can be done? It is a very difficult problem and it has certainly not yet been solved. Indeed, it may well prove to be insoluble. However, we ought not to give up trying to get the answer. The first thing is to let in a little light and air. The Select Committee on Nationalised Industries has done its best and has produced some good reports, but it is handicapped by two things. It is handicapped by restrictive terms of reference and by having no staff behind it.
  I always noticed when I was a member of the Government that the Public Accounts Committee had far more influence than the Estimates Committee in Government offices. The reason for that was that the Public Accounts Committee had a staff, the Exchequer and Audit Department, headed by the Comptroller and Auditor General. That staff had the right to go to a Government Department, look at the books, read the letters and find out what was going on, whereas the Estimates Committee was simply fishing. Fishing is all that the Ministry of Power is doing now.
  The suggestion has often been made that there should be an official analogous to the Comptroller and Auditor General having the task of looking after the efficiency of the nationalised industries. I would like to revive that suggestion in a rather more radical form. I would like to have a Comptroller and Auditor General for the nationalised industries. I think it would be essential that he should be outside politics, that is to say, that he should be like the present Comptroller and Auditor General, paid from
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  the Consolidated Fund and not subject to any Ministerial control. I would like him to have a staff, which need not be very big, and I would like him given the power to call on the part-time services of the best technical people available. His task would not be to carry out a financial audit, to duplicate the work of chartered accountants, but to carry out an efficient audit.
  The way in which I see it working is this. The Select Committee on Nationalised Industries would ask him the answers to certain questions, or he might think it right to bring some matter to the Committee's attention. The sort of questions that might be put to him would be these: "What we want to know is on what basis a certain area's capital expenditure is planned during the next few years. Go out and examine the books and the plans and make a report." Or, on the load factor, they might say to him, "We observe that the Eastern Region appears to be trying much harder about the load factor than anyone else. Is this really true? Has it made progress? What further progress might be made?" In the same way he might make an examination of the disproportion between small and large coal.
  I, personally, would not be the least frightened of this official trenching upon policy questions and I would not look upon him as a hostile force either to nationalised industries or to Ministers or Government Departments. He would be there to find out the truth and to give Parliament something to bite on. All that Parliament has to bite on now is an occasional slander on a nationalised industry and an ad hoc report on the slander. That does not get one very far. What we want is factual information by unbiased people. Two objections are always made to this. The first is that it would be trenching on the responsibility of Ministers. To a certain extent I think that that is true, but Ministers are in a difficult position at the moment. They are responsible to Parliament for these industries and bound to answer for them in Parliament.
  As the right hon. Gentleman noted, every Minister has always spoken to the same brief on any nationalised industry. The brief shows a disturbing complacency about the whole thing, an almost super Panglossian optimism that all is for the

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  best in the best of all possible nationalised industries. They are bound to do that. While they are responsible and have the right to issue directions they are not supplied with any staff or with any means of getting advice outside the nationalised industry itself. That was arranged quite specifically by the party opposite when it set up these boards. Therefore, they are put in a false position. I think that Ministers would welcome some outside reports and they would certainly learn from them things that they do not know at present.
  The second objection is to say, "Oh, well, you would be upsetting the management of these great monopolies. They are such delicate flowers that they cannot stand criticism. Therefore, it is wrong to do this." The first thing is that they have no shareholders. We hear a great deal from right hon. and hon. Members opposite about the functionless shareholder. Where shareholders have really been functionless is in the nationalised industries. I would take a long bet that if several of the nationalised industries which I could name but will not had, in fact, been privately owned, the shareholders would have exercised their power of veto long ago and sacked the board. But nothing, in fact, has happened. The nationalised industries can bear the making of losses with Roman fortitude and, whatever happens, they get the capital poured down their throats. There is none of the discipline of the market, the sort of thing that makes businessmen grow old before their time. None of these disciplines apply.
  Therefore, some form of discipline must be applied. They may say that it is "all kicks and no ha'pence". I think that the boards of nationalised industries are underpaid. They have a big job and they ought to be paid more. I am all in favour of higher salaries, fiscal privileges and pensions for them. But, once having treated them properly, I would keep them up to the mark.
  This is obviously only a sketch and a possible idea of dealing with the situation, but the problem of the control of the nationalised industries and of their capital expenditure, which is a great burden upon our economy, has not been solved. For this reason we should be right to take short steps and not authorise capital expenditure for long periods ahead.
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  Therefore, when this Bill emerges as an Act I hope that it will be modified, if only in a slight degree.
  5.41 p.m.
  Mr. George Darling: I am sure the House has enjoyed the trenchant criticisms of the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), even though I do not think many of us on this side would agree entirely with the solutions he has put forward to deal with the problems which he himself has created in his own mind.
  The right hon. Gentleman almost spoiled his case when he hinted that it would probably be better to return to the chaos of the pre-war set-up rather than continue with our large nationally-owned and administered electricity industry. There really was chaos before the war. Not only had we no standardised voltages for the consumers and no standardisation of equipment of any kind, but the whole service was so expensive to run. If we had that kind of decentralisation now on that scale, goodness knows what the cost of electricity would be to the consumers.
  The weakness in all the arguments the right hon. Gentleman put forward is that at no point did he ever consider the consumers of electricity. He was concerned only with the financial operations associated with the industry getting its proper capital equipment. I do not want to go into that side of the question today.
  I want to look at this problem from another angle. I am not quite sure that the expansion of eleotricity supplies envisaged by this Bill will be sufficient for our needs. If we are to look ahead to a return to an expanding economy, an economy that is going to make this country more prosperous than ever before and which will give our people an ever-increasing standard of life, I am confident that we must have far more electric power at the disposal of our industries than is envisaged here.
  A factor which is not properly taken into consideration when the estimates of future demand are made is that a great deal of British industry today is inefficient. There is a great deal of managerial and technical inefficiency. Very few industries are properly equipped with up-to-date machinery, and I refer particularly to the new electronic machinery which many of these industries ought to have

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  and have not got. If they are to be brought up to standard, if they are to be in such a condition that they can provide this country with prosperity and rising living standards, these technical deficiencies must be dealt with.
  One aspect of the problem which will have to be considered is the provision of more and more electric power for the modern machines which we hope will be put into industry. The United States worker still has more than twice the amount of electric power at his elbow than the British worker. Goodness knows what the Russian worker will have in the future, because electricity development in Russia is continuing on a phenomenal scale. We cannot afford to be in a position where the economic development of this country in relation to other countries is held up by a shortage of electricity.
  Not only must we have better equipment in our industries and more electric power, but we must also consider the rural areas, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) referred. We have gone to a great deal of expense to take the power lines into the rural areas, but, as my right hon. Friend said, the rural consumers are taking very little electricity. If by the means he proposed or by other means the rural consumers take a great deal more electricity, then again it is very likely that the estimates we are working on here may be insufficient.
  If this is the case—and I think it should at least be looked into—many of the arguments which have been put forward by the right hon. Member for Flint, West do not stand up to examination, because this country cannot afford to do without the expansion of the electricity industry. Obviously the electricity has to be produced in the most economical way. Whether or not our present methods of financing the development are satisfactory is something that is well worth examining. I am not convinced that we have found the perfect method. But to suggest that the financial side of this matter is the most important side is to mislead the House and the country. The important side is how to get enough electricity for the needs of the country.
  There is another important point which ought to be considered. As the
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  right hon. Gentleman so rightly said, we are looking ahead for seven years, no further. I agree with him that we ought not to have a rigid programme even for those seven years. For what is going to happen after that? In this country we have an ageing population, and we shall see the results of that ageing population in our industries in ten or fifteen years' time. The labour force will become numerically smaller. Yet we want rising living standards. We want a greater output from fewer and fewer workers all the time. We cannot have that unless the electricity supply, which is the modern method of taking power to industry, is sufficient for our needs.
  As has been said from both sides of the House, this is an industry of which we can be proud. Its output is now more than three times the output generated prewar with an increase in cost of only 50 per cent. above pre-war. These are tremendous achievements of which we should be proud. In the area that I know best, the Yorkshire Electricity Board area, in the last ten years alone electricity has been taken to nearly 400 villages. There are now only four remote villages in Yorkshire and the northern part of Lincolnshire, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire without electricity. That is something to be proud of.
  The cost has been remarkably small in terms of what the consumer and taxpayer has to pay. In fact, although one would not think so from what the right hon. Gentleman has said, this is a very good public investment which produces very good returns in terms of service to the nation. Financially it is perfectly sound. Of course, the idea that businessmen are to be found only in the City of London was exploded a long time ago. One of the reasons why the Yorkshire Electricity Board can present such good accounts to the public is, I believe, that there is a great deal of shift working in the heavy industries in the area which it covers. That has had a considerable effect upon the load factor.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Paymaster-General anticipated criticism about the hire purchase arrangements which the electricity boards make for the sale of appliances. In the course of his rather ambiguous remarks, he said that the Minister and the boards were in consultation about the total amount of money

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  out of the loans to be provided by the Bill that can be used for hire purchase arrangements. He said that the total amount will be decided by sound commercial practice. Whenever I hear those words I shudder a little, because very much depends upon who decides what is sound commercial practice.
  I can understand that the restrictionists such as the right hon. Member for Flint, West would lay down very stringent terms about sound commercial practice. He can correct me if I am wrong, but the right hon. Gentleman would probably limit the boards very severely in the amounts which they could use for hire purchase arrangements. Others would say that one of the factors to be taken into account in deciding the criteria for sound commercial practice is the service which is given to the consumer. I see no reason why the electricity boards should be handicapped and prevented from giving a good service to the consumer merely because other people want to get their fingers on the kitty.
  Mr. A. E. Cooper: What about the co-ops?
  Mr. Darling: I was coming to that point. As the hon. Gentleman has reminded the House, I am associated with the Co-operative movement, which is all in favour of the electricity boards selling appliances in the best way possible to serve the consumer.
  Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Gentleman must give the correct quotation. The Cooperative movement has announced that it is in favour of competition with the area boards' shops in the sale of electrical appliances so long as the terms of trade are equal and there is no element of subsidy from the Treasury in the capital employed for the financing of the electrical appliances sold by the area boards' shops.
  Mr. Darling: If the hon. Gentleman can tell me in what Co-operative publication he has seen that quotation, I should be glad to look it up. Obviously we want fair competition, but not competition that would handicap service to the consumer.
  Mr. Cooper: The hon. Member has mentioned the Yorkshire Electricity Board. Is he aware that the Yorkshire Electricity Board charges an interest rate of 41½ per cent. per annum? I am credibly informed by a large number of
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  people selling electrical appliances that that figure is below the cost of the paper work alone. Therefore, the actual financing is subsidised by the consumers and not by the board.
  Mr. Darling: That is a point which one could look into. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth said, apart from one, the boards are coming into line about the amount that should be paid.
  There may be a very good reason why 4½ per cent. was charged. It may be to continue arrangements which have been going on for a long time.
  Mr. Nabarro rose—
  Mr. Darling: I do not want this to be a discussion. We are on Second Reading, not in Committee.
  The terms were probably continued because the Board was misled about how the terms of interest would move, but the board wanted to give the best service to the consumer. I know there was a great deal of pressure from the consumers' council in Yorkshire for those terms to be continued. Whether the board should have given way to that pressure is a matter of opinion.
  However, that has nothing to do with my argument. Obviously the point that must be taken into consideration is to give the best possible service to the consumer. It would perhaps be wrong to give to those who buy the appliances a subsidy that is being paid by the consumers of electricity, and that should come to an end.
  Mr. Nabarro: The point which I am trying to make and which has emerged from the hon. Gentleman's speech is that the board charged an interest rate of 4½ per cent. The board had to pay 5⅝ per cent. to borrow its money. The difference between those two figures, plus the cost of administration, is the element of subsidy given by the board out of its monopoly sales of electric current. That is wholly unfair.
  Mr. Darling: I question whether it is as unfair as the hon. Gentleman tries to make out. There is another side to the matter.
  We must do all we can to improve the load factor, which means selling appliances which will be used outside peak periods. If the board takes the view,

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  which may be perfectly sound, that in order to sell more appliances and therefore get a greater consumption of electricity outside the peak periods it should continue to do this, then I think it is perfectly entitled to do so.
  When there was the prospect of a coal shortage two or three years ago, I made a statement in the House which the hon. Member for Kidderminster applauded. He shouted "Hear, hear". I said that in order to get fuel saving appliances in the homes in a big enough way it would almost pay the Government to give them away. In other words, we were pleading for Government assistance to get fuel saving appliances into the homes. This is much the same kind of argument.
  Mr. Nabarro: Nothing of the sort.
  Mr. Darling: What we are concerned about, and what hon. Members opposite cannot get into their heads, is service to the public. What hon. Members opposite are concerned about is service to the moneylenders.
  As I was saying, we have to look ahead and consider our plans for an expanding economy. We should pay a great deal of attention to whether the electricity supply which we are planning now will be sufficient for our purposes. Also, we have to consider the fuel which will be used for the manufacture of that electricity. Here we tend to get into difficulty because we have not a coherent fuel and power policy which covers the fuel and power industry as a whole.
  I had a great deal of sympathy with the right hon. Member for Flint, West when he suggested that we had not satisfactory public or Parliamentary supervision over the financial side of these industries. We need not only a better Parliamentary supervision over the financial side; we need a better Parliamentary supervision over the policies for the fuel and power industries. It is altogether wrong to put electricity in a watertight compartment, as we are doing, and consider the borrowing powers for the electricity industry by themselves. Those borrowing powers and the financing of electricity generation should be associated with and be part of a general fuel and power policy.
  The oil industry comes into this matter. I am not suggesting public ownership, but
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  the oil industry cannot be left out of a discussion of policy for the fuel and power industries.
  We make a mistake if we take our fuel and power industries one by one in examining their finance and operation. They should not be put into separate compartments. They are all part of one national service. Each is complementary to the rest and should operate under one comprehensive policy. We have not a national fuel and power policy today.
  I do not want to take up the suggestions that the right hon. Gentleman threw out or to put forward any detailed suggestions of my own about a fuel and power policy except to say one thing. I am convinced that in the national interest we must, pay far more attention to the carbonisation of coal and stop the wastage of coal now going on through the burning of raw coal by old-fashioned methods. By-products which should be available for the nation are now completely wasted. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the advantages which the United States has, and which Canada has, in having a national gas grid. We could have a gas grid in this country if we paid attention to the carbonisation of coal and stopped the waste which goes on as the result of burning it raw. Moreover, we should associate our policy on carbonisation, which would produce a great deal of gas, with the use of gas in electricity generation. This is but one aspect of national fuel and power policy, but I believe that we could in that way make enormous economies and derive better value from the coal which we produce.
  After the experiences we have had under successive Ministers and successive Government policies, I am confident that we shall not achieve a national fuel policy merely by continuing the practice of having debates such as we have today on individual sections of the industry—a debate on electricity, a debate on coal, a debate on gas, and so forth. At some point, we must set up a standing Parliamentary committee which should concern itself with fuel and power affairs, being in a position to call before it in informal session the technicians, the experts about whom the right hon. Gentleman spoke. Of course, such a committee could not deal with finance Bills, but it should deal with the general technical questions which are now so very largely neglected because

  85
  our Parliamentary system does not allow us to discuss them. I am convinced that on each side of the House there are at least a score of Members who take a deep interest in these affairs and who would welcome an opportunity of discussing such technical matters.
  As a result of such regular discussions, it would be possible to force upon even a reluctant Ministry a fuel and power policy which could be of great benefit to the nation. Whether we shall achieve such an arrangement as a result of the report of the Select Committee on Parliamentary procedure remains to be seen, but something on those lines must be done. Otherwise, we shall be in the continuing difficulty of trying to deal with the finances of each industry separately, treating each one without relation to the others and without any relation to an overall fuel and power policy.
  Although we shall send this Bill forward from its Second Reading with our unanimous blessing—I do not imagine that it will be opposed by anybody—I cannot, for my part, feel satisfied either that it will provide enough electricity for our needs or that it represents the best way of dealing with the fuel and power problems of the nation.
  6.4 p.m.
  Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray: Before the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling) found himself involved in controversy about hire-purchase agreements with my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), I was in general agreement with what he said. That is, perhaps, scarcely to be wondered at, since this Bill, I understand, is supported by both sides of the House.
  The hon. Gentleman made a very serious point when emphasising the importance of a general fuel policy. My particular concern, of course, is that the maximum possible use should be made of coal in the generation of electricity. Representing, as I do, East Lothian, which contains the Fleets Colliery, at Tranent, which employs 400 miners but which is threatened with closure, I am more than usually sensitive about any possibility of coal production being maintained at anything less than the maximum.
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  From a defence point of view also, I do not at all wish to give a hostage to fortune by depending too much upon the oil-producing countries, where we have found ourselves in difficulty before now. As for nuclear power production, I wish to see it go ahead; that is an element of invention for the future of which we must take advantage.
  Before I go further, I wish to refer to the book "Scottish Electricity—Plans for the Future" and say, because it coincides with the point I am making, how much I welcome what is said on pages 5 and 6 about the generation of electricity in Scotland. Of course, all generating stations are welcome, but I wish especially to refer to a new slurry burning station near Barony colliery, in Ayrshire. Mention is made of another station to be established at Kincardine, and a very good thing that is, too. At the top of page 6, it is said:
  "Barony generating station in Ayrshire, completed late in 1957, burns colliery waste or washery slurry at the rate of nearly 200,000 tons a year. Although the capital cost per kW was high compared with larger coal-fired stations the use of waste products as fuel amply justifies the project. The economic possibilities of a second slurry burning station in Fife, where considerable quantities of slurry are available, are being examined."
  I feel sure that that is a sensible line to take, and I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, who will, I understand, take part in the debate, will be able to give us encouraging news about how plans for the Fife slurry burning station are progressing.
  I rose not to dwell solely on those matters, but to say a word in support of the Bill, with special reference to the South of Scotland Electricity Board, which has justified the high hopes we held about it in 1954, when it was announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland that it was proposed to give the South of Scotland Electricity Board independence from English control in London.
  I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Wood-burn) sitting opposite. He will remember that that Measure was introduced in the teeth of opposition from Labour Members, including Scottish Labour Members, who opposed the proposal to give Scotland a little control over her own electricity. I said then that I thought the proposal would be well justified by the

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  results, and I believe that we on this side were right in the line we then took. I doubt very much whether any hon. Member from a Scottish constituency sitting opposite will argue tonight very strongly against the performance which the South of Scotland Electricity Board has put up in the few years during which it has had an opportunity to play an independent part.
  I particularly wish to call attention to the work done in the rural areas. Representing the two counties of Berwickshire and East Lothian, I know, as do all hon. Members who tour that part of Scotland, how remote some of the upland villages and farms can be. I know how unattractive, from a purely financial point of view, are many of the projects to install electricity. At the same time, I know how very desirable such work has been from a national point of view, and I much appreciate the very good progress we have been making.
  The last report, up to December, 1957, of the South of Scotland Electricity Board, said that no less than 12,863 farms in the area covered by the Board had been provided with electricity. That amounted to about 80 per cent. of all farms in the area. The work has proceeded at the rate of 760 farms connected in 1956, 677 farms connected in 1957, and, in addition, another 600 farms, I understand, connected in 1958, bringing the total to well over 13,000 farms, well above 80 per cent. of Scottish farms in the area covered by the Board now being connected to the electricity supply. That is good progress, but I am not prepared to rest content with it. I shall not be content until all farms are connected. I hope that we shall see that state of affairs in due course.
  Let us ask ourselves why it is that, in many cases, farms are not being connected. There could be two reasons. It could be that the Board is unable to grapple with the problem. We are really coming to the time when that reason does not apply. The other reason could be that the farmers do not want it. Why is it that the farmers do not want it? I need hardly tell my right hon. Friend that the reason is very largely one of expense. Here I do not see eye to eye with the report of the Consultative Council, which in dealing with this matter said:
  "The Council wholeheartedly support the Board's policy for bringing electricity to rural
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  communities, although it is unfortunate that development schemes can be jeopardised by the reluctance of individuals to co-operate and agree to take supply."
  I feel that that is rather unfair to some of the individuals concerned. My right hon. Friend will correct me later if I am wrong about the facts, but I think that farmers having about 100 acres find their position very difficult. I do not so much care about those having well above 100 acres, but I understand that, if a man's farm totals 100 acres, a lump sum of £200 has to be put down straight away and, further, there has to be a guarantee of £10 a quarter; he has to pay at least £40 a year for electricity. It is at least £40 a year because it is no use economising in the summer and thinking that one can get away with £5. One is compelled to pay £10 each quarter at least, and that must be added to the £200 lump sum.
  However, I should be the last person to be unfair to the Government which I support, and I believe that we have helped in this problem a great deal with our farm improvement scheme, which allows 33 per cent. of the cost to be borne by a Government grant. I do not, therefore, want to make more of the case than it deserves, but, even so, there is left out of the lump sum £134 in the first year, to which must be added £40 or more. That is about £200 in the first year, at any rate. On some of the prosperous farms, that burden can be carried, but on farms of about 100 acres, as most people in close touch with agriculture know, a consideration of as much as £200 in a year can be a very great deal.
  I wonder whether either my right hon. Friend or the Board itself could make it a little easier for the smaller farmers to have their electricity and allow the schemes in general to be accelerated so that all the farms in an area could be connected at the same time. I am sure that my words will not pass unnoticed by my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Woodburn: It might be desirable for these matters to be covered by the hire-purchase powers of the electricity authorities, so that, instead of a man having to pay the whole £200 in the first year, he could have the amount spread over a considerable period. There is surely no reason why hire-purchase arrangements could not be made which would reduce the annual cost considerably.
  Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: Yes, I think that that is so. I do not wish to be drawn into the controversy between private firms and the Board because, as the right hon. Gentleman knows very well, some good supporters of private enterprise have felt that the Board, when competing against private firms in the sale of appliances, has had a rather unfair advantage. It has been able to erect large displays and advertise in front windows on main streets, much of the overheads being charged to the Board in general—that is to say, to us also, as taxpayers—and it has been difficult for private firms to compete. The competition has not been altogether fair. I do not want to go too far in agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman, because I do not think that we should support a nationalised board in unfair competition against private individuals.
  My next point concerns research. It has been said in this debate and it is, I think, admitted that there is a limit to development in certain directions. That is obviously true. Already in the South of Scotland Electricity Board's area, the number of farms connected is well above 80 per cent. Thus it is not possible to get unlimited increase in the development there.
  Ought we not to look for further directions where it is in the national interest to harness electricity? One need not look far without coming across what has now been mooted in the newspapers a certain amount and has also been considered by the Edinburgh Council. I refer to the question of under-road heating. In reading the reports of the Board, I was rather disappointed that the column dealing with research contained no mention of under-road heating. It refers to the floor warming of domestic premises, but not to road heating, which, I am convinced, could make an important contribution to the prevention of accidents.
  Although the weather is quite warm today, as it was yesterday and the day before, a week ago is was extremely cold. I had occasion to motor in my constituency and it was dangerous to be on the roads. If one has an engagement, however, one keeps it. Therefore, one drives, albeit to the danger of oneself and of the public, which is not a very good thing to do.
  In many cases, there are obvious "black spots" where people again and again get
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  into a skid. The particular "black spot" which has been mentioned is the Mound, in Edinburgh, by the National Gallery, which about 400 buses pass every day. I understand that that is the first spot where sand is sprinkled in a freeze-up. It is a very well-known "black spot". Why should we not press ahead with some kind of road heating there?
  There are two methods of heating, each controlled by a thermo-hygrostat connected to temperature-sensitive elements embedded in the road. One system is a grid of perforated expanded metal which operates on low voltage and needs a transformer. The other is an arrangement of insulated wires operating directly from the mains supply. The elements are embedded about an inch to an inch and a half below the surface of the road. Normally, the system would come into operation when temperatures were low enough, only at night, and use low-cost off-peak electricity. The heat would build up in the road and usually be sufficient to keep the road ice-free throughout the day. Under exceptionally cold conditions it might be necessary to use electricity during the day, which would be more costly—that is, in cold conditions such as we had a week or two ago.
  The Road Research Laboratory—I do not know whether it is the English Laboratory or the Scottish Laboratory, at East Kilbride—estimates the cost of installation at approximately 30s. a square yard and running costs in the region of 2s. 6d. per sq. yd. per year. It is difficult to tell what that means in terms of an ordinary experiment or an ordinary stretch of road, but I understand that to do it adequately at the Mound would cost between £7,000 and £8,000 a year. That is a rather big bill to face and I wonder whether either my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State cannot intervene, as the road authority for Scotland, with assistance for this experiment or, alternatively, whether the electricity board itself, for the reason that the scheme would help with future developments—if successful, it would catch on and would be widely availed of by other people—would not consider granting a much lower rate of charge in view of the experimental nature of this plan. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State might feel able to say something hopeful about this when he speaks tonight.

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  I want to close on a note on which we are entitled to close. The general picture of electricity development is good. In particular, the South of Scotland scheme, with Scottish control and not the remote control of London, is justifying its existence. The Government introduced it in 1954. Government supporters expressed the hope that it was a move in the right direction. I believe that it has justified itself. I wish it well and I shall vote in favour of granting it powers to borrow a further £60 million.
  6.21 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: I am glad that the hon. and gallant Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Sir W. Anstruther-Gray) has given wholehearted support to the Bill. I welcomed also his remarks about the use of coal instead of oil for the generation of electricity. Like the hon. and gallant Member, I have in my constituency two collieries which are closing down, and I consider it to be a wrong policy which has created this situation. My constituency has skilled miners and good available coal which should still be produced for the nation. I am fairly certain that if we had had a proper fuel and power policy, as suggested today by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), these circumstances would not have been created.
  Because of the political uncertainty of the areas from which we get the oil, it is foolish to rely entirely upon oil for the generation of electricity. I would have regarded that as elementary common sense and would have expected those responsible for Government policy to bear it in mind in their approach to the coal industry. Unfortunately, however, that is not the case. We have had no proper fuel policy over the last four or five years, and the nationalised industries have had to work on a policy of expediency within a framework in which a general policy pursued by the Government was absent. Therefore, we are in the present dilemma.
  Although we are discussing electricity tonight, I agree with many of my hon. Friends who have spoken today that we need a general fuel and power policy. In that sense, I welcomed, strangely enough, the remarks of the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), who made the interesting suggestion that
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  Parliament should look more at our fuel and power policy, including the nationalised industries; and, indeed, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned private industry. Although his political prejudices crept into his speech now and then, he made the interesting suggestion that Parliament should look broadly at the financial policies as applied by the various nationalised industries and private industry and that we should seek to check bureaucracy. Many of us agree that we must do this. The right hon. Gentleman's prejudices against nationalisation, however, rather spoilt a good argument on the broad need of Parliamentary control.
  There is danger, too, that we do not have enough Parliamentary control. Tonight, for example, the Minister responsible for this Bill is in another place. The Parliamentary Secretary is not here, and has not been present during the whole of the debate.
  Mr. Nabarro: He is ill.
  Mr. Peart: He would not be replying in any case. We are to hear from a Minister who is responsible for Scotland. On these issues the Paymaster-General is always responsible for making major political speeches, while the key Minister is in another place. This is the responsibility of a Conservative Government. I believe that the Minister of Power should be here—
  Mr. Nabarro: So do I.
  Mr. Peart: —in this House. I am glad that the hon. Member agrees with me.
  Mr. Nabarro: I always have agreed on that.
  Mr. Peart: The hon. Member must condemn his own Prime Minister for making such an appointment.
  Mr. Nabarro: It is not a matter of condemnation for the hon. Member. When the Labour Government were in office from 1945 to 1951 there were plenty of responsible Ministers who sat in another place. I remember how indignant I used to be from the Opposition benches when I got some half-baked answer from a Parliamentary Secretary.
  Mr. Peart: The key Ministers in the Labour Government, however, were on the Government Front Bench in this House, and the hon. Member knows it. The Minister of Fuel and Power was in

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  this House, together with the Minister of Agriculture, for example, and other Ministers. The Minister of Education was in the Cabinet, but a Conservative Prime Minister took her out of the Cabinet. And so it went on. Ministers should be here in this House, and I wish that the Minister of Power could be here now to answer questions. Instead, we have a delegation of Parliamentary responsibility. I agree with hon. Members opposite and with the "Nabarro" group in the Conservative Party that Ministers should be here in this House and able to answer detailed questions. Indeed, I should like to put some questions tonight concerning my own constituency.
  I agree that we need a broad fuel and power policy, and I hope that the Minister who replies to the debate will answer my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth concerning the build-up of our nuclear power programme, the arguments about the consortium, whether it is right to have four or five groups, whether it is right to stretch our resources, whether it is right to have greater freedom or to allow what is virtually a monopoly by these main groups, what connection they have with the Atomic Energy Authority, the relationship of private industry, and, of course, the full nuclear power programme in relation to electricity generation, its cost, and so on. All these are vital issues. We do not want too much detail tonight. The debate on a Bill of this kind is not the occasion to go into too much detail. Nevertheless, the main questions which have been put forward by my right hon. Friend certainly should be answered.
  I wish to stress, however, the importance of rural electrification. I was glad that the hon. and gallant Member for Berwick and East Lothian emphasised this matter. Speaking this afternoon for the Opposition, my right hon. Friend said that opportunity should be given for small farmers to have cheap credit facilities or arrangements whereby they could buy equipment to enable them to use electricity in greater quantity. I do not know the reason for the fact that in some areas electricity is not being used fully by the farmers. It may well be because of expense. Arrangements should be made on the lines suggested by my right hon. Friend.
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  Unfortunately, however, in many areas, as I know in Cumberland, farmers do not have the opportunity to have electricity when they are quite prepared to meet the expense. This is a very great problem in my own area. Globally, the figures are fine. We have made tremendous progress over the last ten years. I could quote figures, as the hon. and gallant Member has done for his own Scottish region, from the North-Western region. Since nationalisation, we have had an increase in farm connections of over 7,000. On the day of nationalisation, there were 12,664 farms on the board's network. Today the figure is 20,080. I could give statistics to show the tremendous progress which has been made—and let us admit it fairly—by a nationalised industry. Hon. Members opposite should remember this.
  The right hon. Member for Flint, West seemed in his other arguments to forget that in electricity the nationalised industry has achieved great successes, and we must pay tribute to it. It has not been a burden to our national economy. Indeed, this drive for electrification, which could be undertaken only by large concern devolving responsibility upon regional boards, could be undertaken only within the framework of a nationalised concern. If we had left it to the higgledy-piggledy bodies which existed before, these figures would not have been as good as they are now. The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) knows, of course, as does the right hon. Member for Flint, West, that in this the Authority has achieved success Broadly, I say that it has.
  Mr. Nabarro: I have not yet spoken, and I have not referred to this point, but we do not dispute that there has been good progress; we do not dispute that there has been a measure of expansion; but what we do dispute is whether it has been achieved with due cost-consciousness and economy in capital investment throughout.
  Mr. Peart: The hon. Member should be fair.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am a fair-minded chap.
  Mr. Peart: The hon. Member is, strange to say; but he should be fair on this argument. His right hon. Friend

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  the Member for Flint, West really got into an ideological argument against nationalisation.
  Mr. Nabarro: No.
  Mr. Peart: I think he did, and I think that if hon. Members will read his speech they will see that he was sneering at nationalisation. I understand that, and I respect a man who continues to fight for his ideals, but hon. Members really must admit that in this matter the electricity authorities have been successful. If we look at the national figure we can see that tremendous progress has been made, and in rural areas there is undoubtedly a success story.
  I would agree that in various constituencies there are still difficulties, and I would cite my own area. Those difficulties have come about not because of the policy of nationalisation but because of the policies which have had to be operated within the economy which has been dominated by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. In other words, there has been a deliberate cutting of capital investment. There was a period of capital restriction.
  I have here an official reply from a Conservative Minister in relation to a scheme of electricity for the lakeland area of Borrowdale. Hon. Members opposite may know Borrowdale. In a reply by letter to me from the Parliamentary Secretary in April, 1956, he had to admit that the scheme was postponed solely because of the restrictions on capital investment. Time and time again when I have pressed for rural electrification in my own area I have been told, and my constituents have been told, that the regional board has to operate its policy within a restrictionist framework. Time and time again I have pressed for rural electrification not only in Borrowdale but at Loweswater and the beautiful area of Buttermere, in the lakeland area in my constituency and the rural areas on the fringe of that lakeland area, places like Embleton, and Ullock, and Bullgill, and my constituents have been told about the restrictionist framework.
  Over and over again that has happened. I have letters here to show it. I have the official statement from the Government. I have it now also from the North-Western Eletricity Board, in communications which have been given to my constituents.
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  Time and time again the restrictionist policy has meant the postponement of a sensible electricity scheme. I am sure it is true, for the documents are here.
  Mr. Cooper: I think the hon. Member is using the word "restrictionist" in the wrong sense. The public purse is not a bottomless pit. There has to be an alignment of priorities. I imagine that on Thursday the hon. Member will be arguing for more money to be spent on education. Other hon. Members will be arguing on other occasions that more money should be spent on roads, and so on. There has to be some balance of priority.
  Mr. Peart: I can assure the hon. Member that that is true, but the board must decide the priorities. We have to decide what the priorities are.
  I have been consistent about this. I raised this matter in 1950, even when the Labour Party was in power, and I questioned the Labour Government about priorities for rural electrification schemes in my own area. There was a specific reason for this, because Borrowdale had virtually been promised a scheme. It was postponed. This policy of postponement has been going on for the last six or seven years. It has been deliberately postponed, as I said, because of what hon. Members opposite know their Government did—because the Government cut down capital investment, because, from their point of view, there was a need for restrictions—
  Mr. Cooper: It was the nation's need.
  Mr. Peart: —and, therefore, Borrowdale, in the period of the Conservative Administration, mainly, has had its scheme postponed.
  That was all that I was saying, and now, surely, we wish to expand. Indeed, the purpose of this Bill is to raise the limits on the borrowing powers of the central authorities, to raise the limits and to phase them with an expansionist programme over a seven-year period. I am merely arguing that now a Conservative Ministry should get out of their head the idea of restriction as applied to my constituency.
  I will be quite frank. I am fighting for my area. Why should I not? It should be the job of every hon. Member to speak up for his constituency. But

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  that is not the sole reason, for I would fight against injustice wherever it seemed to me to be, and I think there has been injustice in this area, because the lakeland area and that part of West Cumberland which I have mentioned were promised a scheme which was postponed for the reasons I have mentioned also. I am merely asking that in this seven-year period, in this period of expansion, now that we are having this Bill to enable the ceiling of borrowing to be raised, rural electrification should have high priority.
  The figure was given by the Minister of £660 million, a very high figure.
  Mr. Nabarro: For what?
  Mr. Peart: For distribution. This was the figure given by the Minister.
  I want to see great emphasis laid on rural electrification because, as I have said, it was promised to my own area, and, too, because in that area we have farming and a great tourist industry which serves not only West Cumberland but the nation. Tourists come to our area from all parts of England and the British Isles. I believe that those people who look after our tourists deserve all modern amenities, and yet in that area, in some of our beautiful lakeland valleys, still there is no electricity supply.
  The North-Western Electricity Board announced in September of last year—I have here a Press statement about it—that it was still going to adhere to the zonal scheme covering certain areas I have mentioned. I hope that now there will be more flexibility, and, in view of what has been said by the Minister and in view of this Bill, that this zoning scheme will either be accelerated or that the fringe areas, the zones in my constituency which have been told by the board that they are not going to get electricity for five or seven years, will now get it.
  I have mentioned part of my constituency, Ullock and Dean, which lies near one of the zones agreed upon by the board, where my constituents have been told that they cannot hope for electricity for a very long time, despite the fact that the lines run very near to the area. Farmers came to me over the weekend about it, and I appreciate the difficulties which they are experiencing. This would
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  not be a big job, but a small job, and I am pretty certain that the local distribution organisation could do the job provided the Government say to the North-Western Board, "There shall be an expansion scheme and there shall be flexibility".
  I am merely asking that the Minister should say to the boards, "Give rural electrification high priority. "I would say to him that I hope that he will use his influence with the North-Western Electricity Board and say to it that this lakeland area should have consideration. I am not asking him to give it a special favour. I am merely asking him to consider the delays I have mentioned. I ask him to consider the delays we have suffered in that area and the area's needs.
  It seems absurd to me that my constituents who are deprived of electricity live only a few miles from our first atomic energy power station, Calder Hall. We have a nuclear power station which is now pumping a little electricity into the grid system whilst a few miles away in my constituency men and women are living in the Middle Ages, in the sense that they rely on primitive forms of light. I shall not be satisfied until I have in my constituency 100 per cent. supply of electricity for all my constituents who need it.
  Mr. Nabarro: A jolly good election cry.
  Mr. Peart: I have raised this matter time and time agin. I have criticised even my own Ministers when they have been lacking in this respect. I shall go on raising the matter. Therefore, today I hope that the Minister will ask the North-West Electricity Board to look again at the points which I have mentioned. It is shocking that in twentieth century Britain my constituents, living so near to the first nuclear power station, should be deprived of electricity. For that reason alone, I hope that there will be more drive and nationally more expenditure on an industry which is so important to our national recovery.
  6.41 p.m.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: If there was a fault in the argument of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart), it was that he failed to distinguish between the physical contribution of the British electricity

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  industry to our economy and the problems in the way of financing it which are created for us all—for the industry and for the nation—by the fact of national ownership. It is those problems with which this Bill asking for an extension of the limit on total outstanding borrowings confronts us directly.
  I do not think anyone could deny that the present statutory limit requires to be increased. That is not really what is at issue. As long as this industry remains in national ownership, undoubtedly the lion's share of the capital which it requires for its development must be raised on public credit, whether the form of raising upon public credit is by advances from the Exchequer or by the issue of stock with Treasury guarantee.
  What is at issue is whether in present circumstances it is right that the limit should be extended as far as is proposed in the Bill, and whether that extension should be without qualification. We are, in fact, concerned with the issue of due Ministerial and Parliamentary control over the borrowing and capital investment of the boards—I link these two forms of control, as did my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General, who introduced the Bill, because unless there is effective Ministerial control it is not really possible to have effective Parliamentary control.
  As we approach the question of the extension of the borrowing limits in the Bill, we have to bear particularly in mind the immense proportions of the capital requirements of this industry, which, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) reminded the House, borrows more in volume than all the other nationalised industries put together. We are therefore dealing with operations whose impact upon the economy and upon the national finances cannot be insignificant.
  The extension which is proposed in the Bill is designed to obviate the necessity of a further extension for six or seven years. That period is only somewhat larger than periods which we have encountered in similar Bills in the past. The Coal (Borrowing Powers) Act, 1951, gave an extension which lasted for five years; and the extensions in the Electricity and Gas (Borrowing Powers) Act, 1954, have also lasted for about five years. But I do not believe that we should be satisfied,
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  certainly not in dealing with the electricity industry at this time, with so long a period.
  It is true that in theory the House can at any time, and in particular in relation to the Annual Report and Accounts, debate the finances of a nationalised industry. In theory, we can always call the Minister to account on any aspect of the administration and finance of the industries for which he is responsible. But there is a world of difference between the permissive opportunity, as it were, to have a debate upon accounts and the necessity placed on a board and a Minister to come to the House for something without which it or he cannot get on.
  There is an immense psychological and practical difference between the two. It concentrates a man's mind wonderfully, to use Dr. Johnson's expression, if he knows that he has to come to Parliament and get something from the House. It strengthens the Minister against a board; it strengthens the powers of control of the Treasury; and it is a real instrument of control in the hands of the House of Commons. For these extensions of the limits of borrowing are the only acts by which the House says "yea" or "nay" to the finances of any nationalised industry. We may debate as we please the Reports and Accounts; but it is only in fixing the limits of borrowing that we have the opportunity finally and positively to pronounce.
  I do not believe, taking into account the impact of the vast capital requirements of the electricity industry upon the economy, taking into account the rapid changes which are occurring in the whole fuel and power picture—which have revolutionised that picture in the last few years—and taking into account the state of public opinion regarding the accountability of nationalised industries, that we should be right, by the Bill as it stands at present, to relieve the electricity industry from the necessity of coming to the House again for six or seven years. I do not think we are entitled to vote the industry six or seven years' immunity from access to Parliament. If that be right, it follows that the limit, which has to be extended, is being extended too far by this Bill.
  I have referred to the history of the coal borrowing powers. I think that the analogy of coal industry borrowing since

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  1946 is instructive in another respect and may provide us with a useful suggestion for the improvement of the Bill.
  In the original nationalisation Act of 1946, the borrowing powers of the National Coal Board were limited in two ways: there was a limit on total outstanding borrowings, and there was also a time limit of five years after which those powers, whether fully used or not, would lapse. When the House came to renew the borrowing powers in 1951, it was proposed to drop the time limit and simply to proceed by a further extension of the limit on outstanding borrowing; but my hon. and right hon. Friends in the House at that time forced upon the then Labour Administration a very important modification of the Bill, which was introduced into it on Report. It was that there should be an annual maximum set to the borrowings in any given year, and that if that maximum was to be exceeded the Minister would have to come to Parliament for an affirmative Resolution to enable him to make the additional advances to the Board.
  When in 1956 my right hon. Friend who is now the Minister of Supply applied to Parliament for a further renewal of borrowing powers, this annual maximum, this second leg, was retained with a proportionate increase of the total. One could dispute whether that proportionate increase of the annual maximum was logical; but at any rate the annual maximum was retained in the Coal (Borrowing Powers) Act, 1956. Even then, many of my hon. Friends, including the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power, voted against the Second Reading of that Bill on the grounds that it provided inadequate Parliamentary control. I wonder what the attitude of my hon. Friend to this Bill would have been tonight, if rôles had not in the meantime been somewhat altered.
  I realise that this device of the annual maximum, with the requirement of a Statutory Instrument if it is to be exceeded, is not perfect, not entirely satisfactory. For one thing, it is not automatic: it does not mean that automatically every year this House has to concern itself with the capital investment and finances of the industry concerned. It is also not quite logical, because a year's expenditure below the maximum might be less justifiable in fact than another
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  year's expenditure above the maximum which therefore required access to this House. Nevertheless, in practice, it does mean that much closer scrutiny has to be given by the Board to its own capital projects, by the Ministry to the board's policy and by this House to the finances of the industry concerned. I believe that in practice it has proved salutary and valuable; for instance, I doubt whether we should have introduced even the present degree of realism into the finances of the National Coal Board if it had not been for the operation of this device in 1957 and 1958.
  However, I should not be suggesting either that the limit proposed in this Bill is too long or that an annual maximum should be added as an additional safeguard if I thought that this would in any way hamper the opportunity of the electricity industry for planning and development. It is true it has been argued—it is argued in the White Paper and, I think, it was argued by my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General this afternoon—that that might happen. The White Paper for example says, referring to the period of duration of the new statutory limit:
  "A period of about seven years is reasonable for this purpose as a shorter period would prove unduly restrictive in view of the scale on which the electricity industry is required to plan and operate,"
  That is to say, the argument is advanced that the industry cannot plan five or seven years ahead unless it has carte blanche from Parliament for the necessary advances for the next five or seven years. If the argument does not mean that, it means nothing. Now, I cannot believe that this is a sound argument. In the first place, we know and we have been assured again today that each piece of borrowing, each slab of actual borrowing, has to be authorised ad hoc by the Minister and by the Treasury, which means that in each particular case the answer may be "Yes" or "No". We are told by the White Paper that these—
  "investment programmes … are reappraised annually on their merits and in relation to the prospective load of investment in the economy."
  Again, if that means anything, it must mean that the amount can be varied annually up or down. Finally, we know that at present we are within six or nine months of these statutory borrowing

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  powers running out, though it is impossible to doubt—indeed, this very document, "Power for the Future", proves it—that the Board has been continuing to plan, place orders and develop irrespective of the fact that it knew that it would have to get additional borrowing powers from Parliament.
  So I conclude by saying that for the sake of the Government's own real control over this industry, as well as of Parliamentary control, and of the public interest at large, the immunity from a new application to Parliament which is proposed by this Bill at six or seven years is too long and ought to be reduced, and that the device, not perfect but useful, which we have had since 1951 in regard to the coal industry—the device of an annual maximum—should now be applied in this industry also.
  6.56 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: I want to say something for an area in which the issue about nationalisation has scarcely arisen at all, because it was taken for granted, and rightly so, that no other method or medium could possibly provide electricity for such an extensive area as the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. Private enterprise had passed it by; because there was no profit for anybody in it; that is to say, no profit in the ordinary private profit sense. So, the argument about nationalisation has never been an argument at all there. It has been something which the people had long been waiting for and wanted to see accomplished, and which has been a blessing to all, including some private enterprises in that area, which have benefited from this enterprise by a public board.
  Having said that, I have, at the same time, a certain amount of sympathy with what the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) has just been saying. I must say that he has proved already that not only can he not contain himself on issues of excessive public expenditure, but that even a Government cannot contain him. Nevertheless, we, too, can share his concern about this matter of answerability; and I myself have certainly felt at times that it is a matter to which both parties in the House might pay considerably more attention. I shall give an example or two
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  of the effect of the absence of it; though some hon. Members opposite were not very sympathetic about it when I raised the matter in one particular form on a previous occasion in the House.
  There are two things I want to speak about. One is this question of answerability, and the other is the issue of the extension of rural supplies of electricity, which has already been referred to by several speakers. I refer particularly to my own area though it has to be remembered that it is not the only one which is still waiting for supplies of electricity and extensions of this service. I know that there are areas like parts of Cumberland, Northumberland and Wales, which are still in the same position; though that equates their claims, rather than leading to a competition which would eliminate any one of them in favour of any other.
  It does seem odd that, in this year of 1959, more than half way through the twentieth century, large numbers of people in these areas are having to manage still with paraffin lamps and lanterns and draw water from wells. It is a scandal. It is almost unbelievable that that should be the case; but there it is. These are people who rightly claim equal citizenship, and are accorded it in theory, but upon whom we pile all the obligations of citizenship in times of peace and war by means of taxation and conscription, and so on, and, yet to whom in other ways, we do not allow the simple amenities and decent comforts of modern civilised living. When we speak of the needs of those rural areas, it is not to ask for any special consideration, but to make the appeal that they should be allowed to have what is enjoyed by the citizens in other parts of the country.
  It has to be remembered, admittedly, that it is more expensive to link up the more distant rural areas with electricity. Equally, it has to be remembered that one does not grow plantations of trees in towns for the purposes of industry. It has also to be remembered that we do not develop hydro-electric stations in cities and that we do not grow corn or produce livestock in Pimlico, the Gorbals, or Central Edinburgh; but that town and country are dependent upon each other. Neglect of the countryside is as dangerous as the urban unemployment which has been created by the policy of the present Government.

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  I have never said anything broadly critical of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board. I have defended it from its inception and have praised its activities and achievements, which are many. Without it, these blessings of electricity and industrial development would not have come to the highland and island areas. Even the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) refrains from interrupting me at this point; and to that extent, therefore, we are all agreed.
  I hope I can carry the House further with me in wishing we could extend it all the way and finish the job instead of stopping three-quarters of the way through the Board's work. That is really my criticism today of the Board. I know that it has been under pressure and restriction as a result of recent Government financial policy. The members of the Board had been warned; they have had directives thrown at them and they have interpreted them, no doubt faithfully and loyally; but in a way which we in the North have thought was excessively zealous.
  I doubt whether the Hydro-Electric Board would have been affected by the 7 per cent. Bank Rate while it operated. The Board took decisions to subject itself to those restrictions before the high rate was effective. Indeed, we thought for a while that the Board had encountered difficulties other than those arising out of Government policy long before, and that it was prepared to some extent to sacrifice the smaller, out of the way, rather costly supply areas in order to try to get itself out of certain financial difficulties. We have a pretty good idea that this is true.
  It is a most frustrating experience for hon. Members in this House, as the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, Southwest said, to find that they cannot get what I think this House has a right to have, that is, a breakdown at reasonable intervals of the figures which appear in the Board's annual accounts and reports. The Secretary of State has been asked time after time by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson), myself and others, to give us an explanation and a breakdown of the items in the annual report. He is not in a position to give that, or he chooses not to do so, I do not know which. I imagine that he is not in a position to give it, and that he
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  is as much frustrated as we are. But there it is: we have either a blank refusal or pure, blank ignorance. Either way it is not helpful to anybody concerned.
  Behind the borrowings of this Board has always been the Treasury guarantee, and from time to time the Board comes to this House and asks for an extension of its borrowing powers. More recently, Treasury advances have been the main financing method employed. The difficulty is that we have not been able in detail to scrutinise, and thereby understand, some of the headings with which we have been presented year after year by the Board. Not only that, but we have had only one major debate on its report and accounts in fifteen years.
  Mr. Nabarro: Oh, no.
  Mr. MacMillan: Yes, that is true.
  Mr. Nabarro: No.
  Mr. MacMillan: It is. If the hon. Gentleman wants to interrupt, he might do so with some substance behind his intervention.
  Mr. Nabarro: I addressed the Scottish Grand Committee on the question of the Scottish Hydro-Electric Board for 55 minutes and later I addressed the House for another 45 minutes on the Report stage of the 1952 Bill.
  Mr. MacMillan: The hon. Gentleman, as usual, has confused and confounded his own argument. We were not then dealing with the report and accounts of the Hydro-Electric Board; we were dealing with a Bill.
  Mr. Nabarro: It is the same thing.
  Mr. MacMillan: No, it is not the same thing. The hon. Gentleman must distinguish between a Bill and the annual report of the Hydro-Electric Board. I would have imagined even he had that difference clear in his mind. Before that interruption I was about to express the hope that we would not have to wait fifteen years, or even the seven years mentioned in connection with this extension of borrowing powers, before we have a further full discussion and examination of the report and accounts of the Board; and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree with me on that point.
  Mr. Nabarro: I entirely agree.
  Mr. MacMillan: I believe that all parties in the House desire greater and more frequent opportunity of examination and a greater answerability to this House by the Board. It is extremely important to have that.
  Now I will give an example which may or may not gladden the hearts of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Some time ago I tried to get details of a heading which appeared in the last report and accounts of the Board. It was called "Compensation". By devious means I managed to discover, and of course, had to disclose, that certain informal objections, which it was denied by a Minister were technically objections at all, had been lodged by Lord Lovat. In the case of one scheme, the Strathfarrar-Kilmorack scheme, the sum involved was £200,000. I could not have got that disclosure from the Minister, or the Hydro-Electric Board. It came from a mysterious but reliable source, and it turned out to be fairly correct.
  There was £100,000 involved, and also indirect compensation. There was involved expenditure on new roads, on the reconstruction of roads, and on general improvements on the Lovat estate, a sum of over £102,000. Thus, the total amounted in cash and in other ways to over £200,000 of material advantage to one alone of the objecting landlords in connection with this Strathfarrar—Kilmorack scheme. This is one example of the lack of disclosure and of a lack of frankness when hon. Members of the House are asked to commit themselves, to commit the Treasury, to commit the Government, the nation, the taxpayer and his wife. Shortly afterwards another landlord said that in respect of the same scheme he had received compensation of £50,000. We still do not know what the full Lovat compensation amounted to. Sir John Stirling then disclosed that he too, had received £50,000 in respect of the project.
  It was discovered then that Sir Robert Spencer-Nairn was fighting it to the last ditch; but the right hon. Gentleman told me "You cannot discuss this. It is sub judice." It was not sub judice. I thought it was at the time, but it was sub-S.o.S., as far as I understand, it was "sub" the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland who was holding the inquiry. So up he gets blithely and tells me "This is sub judice. You must
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  not discuss it. I am examining it. It would be a most improper thing to do. "In my folly and innocence, I apologised and immediately withdrew from that part of the battle. But we were both wrong. It was not sub judice at all.
  It turned out that the Spencer-Nairn decision was made on the responsibility of the Secretary of State; and nobody yet knows what it was, or what exactly was paid out in respect of Sir Robert Spencer-Nairn. No doubt the compensation paid will ultimately come under the heading of a global figure in the annual accounts as "Compensation". There should be more answerability on such things. That is only one example of many one could bring forward; maybe not the most popular one opposite; but it is an example of the need for scrutiny by this House before the extension of borrowing powers for all these purposes is sanctioned.
  There are two things under answerability upon which it is important we should keep an eye. One is to ensure that the Board is carrying out the duties laid upon it statutorily by this House; to see that it is spending sufficiently as well as efficiently. In this connection, it is worth while looking again at the remit of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board. It is not exactly the same as that of the South of Scotland Electric Board or the English Electricity Board. The North of Scotland Board was set up in 1943
  "… to develop all further water power resources of the North of Scotland District in such a way that they would be able to supply electricity to ordinary consumers in the sparsely populated parts outwith existing supply areas, and to sell electricity to authorised undertakers and large power users within that District and to the electricity authority in the South. Within the limits of their powers"—
  this is where it differs from the rest—
  "and duties the Board were also directed"—
  that is, directed by this House—
  "to collaborate in the carrying out of any measures for the economic development and social improvement of the North of Scotland District or any part thereof."
  The Board already has wider scope than the other boards in its activities. It has extensive duties laid upon it, and it has a directive by Statute to carry out those duties. The priority is the supply of electricity to the local people, and, in particular, the sparsely populated

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  areas. That is one of the matters on which it is important that the Board should be more directly, thoroughly and frequently answerable to this House. There are other headings, too, in respect of which we ought to be able to demand answerability.
  We have a right to know how the money borrowed by our authority is being applied. It is not enough to say that in seven years' time the matter will be reviewed. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West referred to the insufficiency of an occasional broad, "theoretical" review. He argued, perhaps correctly, that some sort of annual check might be valuable. That may well be true. While the North of Scotland Board has been handing out largesse to landlords, it has been denying electricity to small, sparsely populated areas, contrary to its statutory priority under the directive of this House.
  We are told that the Board has run out of money. How can we reconcile their statements when, on the one hand, we are told of the settlement of £100,000 with Lord Lovat and, on the other, that the Board has no resources with which to extend its supply to the islands of Barra and North Uist? Why cannot we have enough information to see whether the Board is being extravagant in its awards on landlords' compensation claims? The awards were informally agreed without any public inquiry and without any Secretary of State's inquiry. In fact, these things were decided by the Board and the objectors who benefited. Today, thousands of my constituents in Uist and Barra are being told that the Board has no resources with which to supply them with electricity, at the same time as the Board is freely handing out largesse to the Highland lairds and new money barons.
  Mr. E. Fenyhough: Could my hon. Friend disclose how much Sir Robert got?
  Mr. MacMillan: I have no means of telling. As far as I know, the matter is still—in the Secretary of State's sense— sub judice. According to the Secretary of State, there is no means of finding out. Under pressure, the Secretary of State disclosed the information in the case of Lord Lovat. In the case of Sir John Stirling, he himself frankly said what he had received and gave us fully the reasons why he got it.
  Mr. John Rankin: Can my hon. Friend say whether the Secretary of State, when he replies, will be in any way prevented from telling us the amount of money which was paid to Sir Robert?
  Mr. MacMillan: I am always hoping that the Secretary of State will some day disclose something which will be useful to somebody. This is one of his great opportunities. Let us hope that the right hon. Gentleman will disclose some information. We have head from one hon. Member opposite something about the need for sanding the roads in Edinburgh at the Mound. There is no need for it at St. Andrew's House. Nobody will slip there, since nobody ever moves.
  Mr. E. G. Willis: Can my hon. Friend say what percentage of the cost of the scheme is going as compensation in respect of sporting rights?
  Mr. MacMillan: We expect the Secretary of State to go into detail about that in his reply, after having heard all the questions in which we are interested. A very large sum of money is involved; much more than would be necessary to supply the whole of the island of Barra and some thousands of people in the Uists. Some months ago, when it suited the purpose of the Government to establish a guided missile range in the Western Isles, there was no trouble in estimating for £22½ million. All we are asking about now is the £200,000 and the other handouts. We have a right to that much answerability by the Secretary of State and the Board.
  The Secretary of State is, or should be, more answerable to this House than any of the other Ministers. The other boards are answerable in two ways, through the Minister of Power and the Treasury. The North of Scotland Board is answerable only to the Secretary of State, and, therefore, surely, the Secretary of State is even more directly answerable to us. He is Scotland's only Minister in the Cabinet, and we have the right to feel that he has more of a direct responsibility to us than other Ministers have, because there is a second Treasury check in their case.
  I am not criticising the Board for its work in general. It has done excellent work in bringing light to the homes of

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  many Highland people and making industries possible where even the hon. Member for Kidderminster, with all his ingenuity and belief in private enterprise, would not succeed in bringing it. The Board has done well in difficult conditions. The chief difficulty now, however, is that, in areas where it is failing to finish the job, it is frustrating all the economic and social development which it has a directive from this House to promote; and until it can supply electricity to Barra and North Uist no industries can settle there and life will continue to be, as was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart), in respect, at least of lighting and fuel, something like what it was in the Middle Ages.
  7.17 p.m.
  Mr. A. E. Cooper: When I first came to the House nine years ago I was advised never to embroil myself in the affairs of Scotland. Consequently, I hope that the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) will not think me discourteous if I do not refer to the points which he has raised.
  From 1936 to 1940, I was chairman of the Ilford electricity undertaking. In those years I was a member of a committee called Area 10, which had as its chairman the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Poplar (Mr. Key) and as its vice-chairman the right hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Bottomley), two very prominent members of the Labour Party, who would certainly resent the suggestion made by one hon. Member opposite that the distribution of electricity in those prewar years was a higgledy-piggledy business.
  There is a world of difference in the electricity industry in the post-war years compared with the pre-war years. In the pre-war years we were concerned largely with a developing industry. We were then endeavouring to promote the sales of a form of energy which, although not exactly new, was trying to make its headway against gas, which was then very largely used for industrial and domestic purposes. The methods by which we were able to encourage the use of electricity, although justifiable in those days, are not necessarily justifiable in post-war years.
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  At the time we were trying to develop we had an off-peak load problem which was a very serious one. If one could create a demand off-peak of an extensive character, one could reduce the price of the current overall very substantially and, in consequence, make a further step forward in the consumption of electricity.
  We had this problem in Ilford. It was a problem of an industrial demand which was very much a peak load. Coupled with that was a vastly expanding domestic demand, making for very serious problems. We were able to work out a scheme, which had the support of all the private electrical contractors in the town, whereby the borough council and the electricity undertaking hired water heaters at an uneconomic rate. The water heater was essentially a means of consumption which was off-peak, usually in the middle of the night. After following that policy for two or three years, in 1938 we were able to provide electricity to our consumers for three units a penny, at that time the cheapest price anywhere in the United Kingdom.
  The problems of today are very different. There is still the problem of off-peak loading, the solution of which would help us considerably. I now wish to deal with the question of electricity boards supplying electrical appliances on hire purchase to consumers within their areas. As I have explained, before the war we did it for one reason. Today the reasons are different.
  Mr. Robens: Why?
  Mr. Cooper: I will explain to the right hon. Gentleman. The main items of equipment sold by electricity boards on hire purchase today are washing machines and vacuum cleaners, items which consume very small amounts of electricity and which have little effect on the off peak demand. We are concerned with a Bill to increase the borrowing powers of the electricity boards and we must first make sure that the money being advanced will be used properly.
  Mr. Albert Roberts: What about immersion heaters and electric cookers?
  Mr. Cooper: I said earlier that the main source of sales was washing machines and vacuum cleaners.
  Mr. Nabarro: And television sets.
  Mr. Cooper: Cookers are not normally used at off-peak times, that is, in the middle of the night. From the consumption point of view, cookers are a very bad load for the local undertaking, because it so happens that housewives are usually cooking at times when factories are using electricity. Few men have their meals in the middle of the night. I need not develop that argument.
  In December, when the Central Electricity Generating Board approached the Minister of Power asking for the restrictions on hire purchase to be lifted, there were outstanding hire-purchase and deferred payment instalments of no less than £22 million. In 1956, before the restrictions started, the amount: outstanding was roughly £29 million. I am well aware that there has been a substantial increase in hire purchase, but it is not unreasonable to suppose that the amount now outstanding is about £30 million.
  Mr. Nabarro: Much more than that.
  Mr. Cooper: I have been very conservative in my calculations, but my advice is that the figure is about £30 million. That appears to be the sort of sum which at all times is, as it were, frozen for the specific purpose of hire-purchase arrangements and is thus not used in the development of generation plant and distribution services.
  What is equally important is that the rate of interest and the period over which repayment is required are such that the ordinary domestic consumer subsidises the hire-purchase arrangements of electricity undertakings by certainly not less a sum than £500,000 a year, and probably nearer £750,000 a year.
  That is an unnecessary subsidy to impose upon the consumer. I have before me complete details of minimum deposits and interest rates being charged by all the boards. I assure hon. Members that I have not gone into this exercise in any partisan spirit. There is no need in the present state of our development for these excessively low rates of interest to be charged which have only to be met by the ordinary domestic consumer.
  Mr. Robens: Not necessarily.
  Mr. Cooper: The right hon. Gentleman says not necessarily. Will he be good
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  enough to tell me how the £750,000 will be otherwise found?
  Mr. Robens: Yes. The hon. Gentleman wants his constituents to pay more for their appliances. I am sure that he will be very popular in his constituency when full publicity is given to that. He forgets that the greater the sale of appliances the greater the consumption of electricity, which must bring down the cost to that extent and which would be a contrary item to that extent.
  Mr. Cooper: The right hon. Gentleman always speaks from theory and very little from practice. Experience over the last few years has shown that with the nationalised industries the reverse happens in every case.
  Let us consider some of these terms. It should be borne in mind that for the average private contractor the usual period for washing machines and vacuum cleaners, even with restrictions out of the way, is two years. Very rarely will anyone be found to offer a period beyond that. In London, the board offers three years for washing machines and two years for vacuum cleaners. The interest rate is 4½ per cent. The paper work alone costs more than that.
  Mr. Robens: Nonsense.
  Mr. Cooper: The right hon. Gentleman should not sit there saying "Nonsense". I have had these figures checked by some of the largest hire-purchase companies in the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am informed that the paper work alone would cost approximately 4·6 per cent., to say nothing—
  Mr. Robens: Now I can understand it.
  Mr. Cooper: —of the cost of the money involved. The right hon. Gentleman should not be so petulant and hasty in saying "Rubbish", because some boards charge a rate which is reasonable, so that if the right hon. Gentleman is right in asserting that the people I am quoting are inefficient, will he say that the boards which are quoting a correct figure are profiteering?
  Mr. Robens: I am saying that to say it costs 4½ per cent. for the paper work on hire purchase is arrant nonsense.
  Mr. Cooper: I ask the right hon. Gentleman tomorrow to contact, through

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  Transport House or someone else, the hire-purchase companies. I am sure that he will have to return to the House and say that it is he who is talking nonsense.
  Mr. Fernyhough: The hon. Gentleman must be aware that since hire-purchase restrictions were lifted countless firms have been selling all kinds of household equipment free of interest. Posters advertising "No deposit and no interest" have been displayed on the windows.
  Mr. Cooper: The hon. Member seems unable to understand that there is any difference between a nationalised industry offering a concession by means of a concealed subsidy and a private trader who, although he may do what the hon. Gentleman says, has to find the money in some way or other in the cost of the article.
  The right hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that in the Midlands the charge is 9 per cent. and the normal commercial practice of two years for washing machines and for vacuum cleaners is followed.
  Mr. Maudling: A charge of 4½ per cent. on the outstanding balance after payment of initial deposit is about the same as a true rate of interest of 9 per cent. on a reducing balance. Is it possible that different boards are quoting different terms, just as personal loans are quoted one way by one institution and another way in a different institution although coming to the same thing? My impression is that the boards charge between 8 and 10 per cent. of true interest.
  Mr. Cooper: That is true in a number of cases, but not in every case. In South Wales, for example, the charge is 3¾ per cent. per annum on capital but not reducing, but in that case there is an additional concession, something which the private trader would be unable to offer, a minimum deposit of 5 per cent. and a maximum period of repayment of five years in each case.
  I happen to be President of the Ilford Chamber of Commerce and Trade, and I know what the small traders in the town think about these problems. They do not fear the competition of the boards so long as it is fair competition. They feel that they can fight provided they do not have one arm tied behind their backs. I beg the right hon. Member for Blyth to recognise that the country owes a tremendous
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  debt to small traders. The small trader is asked to pay a higher rate for his electricity simply because the board subsidies hire-purchase sales with low rates of interest and impossible trading conditions. I ask my right hon. Friend to see that a serious attempt is made to ensure that the trading conditions of electricity boards are within reasonable limits and the same as private industry has to bear.
  Mr. Arthur Moyle: Will the hon. Gentleman explain precisely what he means by "small trader" in connection with hire purchase? All the small traders I know are simply selling agents for these appliances. Immediately a hire-purchase agreement is made, the traders cease to act in a commercial capacity and the matter is at once transferred to a finance corporation with which the customer deals. A finance corporation cannot by any stretch of the imagination be regarded as a small trader.
  Mr. Cooper: It seems that no matter how clear one tries to be it is impossible for hon. Members to understand the simple economics of the matter. The boards do not bother about going to finance companies. They carry all the finance, in the way I have explained, to the tune of about £30 million a year. All I am saying is that that £30 million was not voted by Parliament to enable the boards to sell electrical appliances. It was money intended for the development of electricity.
  Mr. Robens: Nonsense.
  7.35 p.m.
  Mr. William: I do not intend to follow the argument of the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) except for one matter. For some years I was chairman of an electricity committee in my town and I found that, prior to the war, the distribution and generation of electricity was in a chaotic state under the different municipalities and private companies—so much so that we got the McGowan Report, which was very critical of the electricity industry. Only with the coming into existence of the Central Electricity Board before the war and nationalisation after the war did we obtain any standardisation of voltage throughout the nation.
  Mr. Cooper: I do not disagree with the hon. Member on this point, but I would

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  point out that the Report to which he has referred was in connection with generation and not distribution.
  Mr. Blyton: If the hon. Member reads the Report he will find that the question of distribution played just as important a part in the investigation.
  In supporting the Bill, I want particularly to deal with the use of coal in generating electricity and Government policy in relation to the use of oil for generation. The Minister dealt with this important subject very briefly. In electricity generating stations coal is the natural and economic fuel, but this market for our coal diminished by no less than 5 million tons in 1958 as compared with the previous year, whilst the consumption of oil leaped from 578,000 tons in 1957 to 2,189,200 tons in 1958. These figures include creosotes and pitch mixtures. Since 1954 the amount of oil consumed by electricity undertakings has increased from 161,600 tons to 2,189,200 tons in 1958.
  In this field we claim that coal is competitive with oil, but, due to the past history of our fuel supplies, the use of coal by some stations is now ruled out because the Government have made an eight-year contract with the oil companies. On 30th January, 1956, in answer to a Written Question, the then Minister said that there were then 227 stations burning coal and only two with oil, and he added:
  "The latter, and the further 15 stations which by 1960 will be equipped to burn oil, are geographically well placed to receive oil supplies in bulk; … the difference in cost of generation as compared with coal is marginal. Most of these stations will be able to revert to coal burning, in periods varying between a few days and about six weeks."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th January, 1956; Vol. 548, c. 69.]
  If these statements are correct, why was an eight-year contract given to the oil companies when everyone knew that the conversion to oil was due to the fact that we were importing coal in 1955? The reason for dual firing in these generating stations was surely so that we could go back to coal when it was in plentiful supply.
  Let us look at the history of the use of oil and coal in our power stations. In the early summer of 1954, a working party of officials of the C.E.A. and the N.C.B. was set up by the Chairmen of
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  both bodies. This followed conversations they had had with the Minister to consider the possibility of the use of oil at certain power stations, thereby releasing coal either for the manufacture of briquettes—in order to relieve the shortage of large coal—or for redistribution as part of general availability.
  In June, 1954, the working party reported that it would be technically possible in a short time, to reduce the consumption of South Wales coal—South Wales being an area in which we now have many mines closing—of a quality suitable for briquetting at Battersea and Fulham, and by using more oil at Bank-side. It also reported that by further increasing oil consumption at Bankside B up to the maximum, and increasing the use of the existing oil-fired boilers at Brimsdown, it would be possible to displace further quantities of coal in the North and South Thames areas. At this time it was also suggested that many of the pulverised-fuel-fired stations were capable of being converted to dual firing, and in 1954 the Government authorised the import of 500,000 tons of coal for power stations.
  The prospect, as seen then, was that these imports to meet the requirements of power stations and other consumers would have to be stepped up to nearly 10 million tons. In fact, we imported 11½ million tons in 1955. At that time there seemed no prospect that the Coal Board would be able to supply as much coal for power stations as the C.E.A. estimates of future demands required.
  It was also in 1954 that the then Minister decided that the gap between the demand and supply of coal could best be met by the import of oil, and it was in these circumstances that the possibility of using oil on a much larger scale was considered. Negotiations then proceeded, and an agreement was arrived at whereby Marchwood Power Station was put to oil, and the design of the station was changed to permit oil or coal being used. Agreements were then made to supply oil to seven stations—Barking, Brunswick Wharf, Littlebrook, Tilbury, Poole, Portishead and Plymouth. It was estimated that by 1960 these stations would need the equivalent of about 4 million tons of coal.
  Another agreement was made covering a further seven stations—Belvedere, Bromsborough, Carrington, Cliff Quay,

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  Ince, South Denes and a projected station on the Thames Estuary. This agreement provided for oil supplies rising to the equivalent of 5 million tons of coal. I shall be very critical of what the Government have done in relation to these eight-year contracts. By 1955 arrangements for oil burning in 17 power stations were made, and it was estimated that their total consumption of oil would be equivalent of 9 million tons of coal. I shall not give the names of the stations; I will only say that Carrington, near Manchester, was included in the list but that in 1955 it was decided that this station should remain on coal. That is the background which led up to the Minister's answer to the Written Question of 30th January, 1956.
  Shortly after this answer was given we had the Suez crisis, at the end of 1956. This entailed a cut of about 90 per cent. in the oil consumption of the Central Electricity Authority, which lasted for four months and caused a delay in the implementation of the oil conversion programme. In 1957 the Coal Board revised its long-term estimates, which indicated a great increase in the availability of small coal for electricity generation at the end of 1960. We know now that small coal is in abundance. In view of this, and because of the modifications in the capital expenditure programme of the electricity supply industry, the oil-burning programme was reduced to an estimated 7½ million tons of coal equivalent. This increased the estimated demand for coal by 3 million tons by 1965.
  I now want to deal with the substance of the Minister's Written Answer in 1956, that conversion to coal would take from a few days to six weeks. Because of the circumstances of the time oil had to be used, and the intention was surely to revert to coal. If that was not so, the answer had no meaning. If it was the intention to use oil there was no need for dual firing.
  I now turn to the four stations scheduled to use oil in the near future. They are Belvedere New Station, Plymouth B, Portishead B, which is a partial conversion, and Brunswick Wharf. If the eight-year contract ties us in connection with nine stations, surely coal can be used in these four—or are they also tied up by the eight-year agreement?
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  Why should they burn oil when millions of tons of coal are on the ground, miners are being laid off and mining villages becoming derelict?
  Oil comes from the politically most unstable areas of the world. We were caught not so much napping as snoring by the revolution in Iraq. In that case we were committed to support the deposed rulers, but we rightly hastened to make our peace with the newcomers. In the oil areas we have often backed the wrong horse. Our oil supplies are never sure. Are we, then, to see our miners unemployed, although on some future occasion we may find that we cannot obtain oil to maintain our electricity supplies?
  During the Suez adventure we had to make a cut of 90 per cent. in the Central Electricity Authority's oil supplies. If trouble breaks out in the oil fields, or if another conflict arises—which no one wants—a difficult situation will be created in connection with our oil-fired generating stations. I want to put forward a suggestion, for what it is worth. The Government ought to call the oil companies, the Electricity Authority and the Coal Board together, with the object of arriving at an agreement to put the four generating stations which I have mentioned on coal. Their consumption would be about 1 million tons of coal a year, which is equal to the employment of 4,000 miners yearly.
  This eight-year contract is a hard bargain, extracted by the oil companies when coal was scarce. There was no competitive basis about it at all. Coal can compete with oil in this direction but cannot do so now because of the eight-year contract. I know that the present Minister of Power has told the National Union of Mineworkers, my trade union, that if coal cannot compete with oil it is just too bad for coal; but we insist that where coal is the natural and economic fuel it should be used. That applies to the four generating stations now scheduled to use oil.
  In this free-for-all economy, I would ask the Government whether it is their deliberate intention to run down the coal industry. The Government's fuel plan of £300 million per annum is now dead and ought to be revised. We have been told by the Government that coal will remain the main fuel of the country, but what do

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  they mean by that? Are we to supply 55 per cent., 60 per cent., or 65 per cent. with coal, and is oil to supply the remainder? The pattern of fuel consumption is changing every day. It ought to be the policy of the Government not to make the country too dependent upon oil.
  I have been informed that 137 large industrial consumers are to go over to oil by 1960 and that another 266 are negotiating prices for oil, yet we are handcuffed by Statute on price policy against oil, and no competition is allowed in respect of the generating stations. If we are to be told that it is just too bad if coal cannot compete with oil, we can at leasts expect the Government to give coal a fair chance to compete. There will have to be alterations in prices, and perhaps in the price structure itself, if coal is to compete with oil. Only the Treasury Bench can help us in this respect.
  If it is the Government's plan to run down the coal industry in favour of oil, the Government should say so. They should tell the National Coal Board and the miners what is expected and needed from them in coal production. In the changing pattern of fuel consumption, the coal industry ought to be told what output is needed from it per annum. Is it 200 million tons or 180 million tons? How many men shall we need to produce the amount that is required? I have come to the conclusion, very reluctantly, that the present closures of mines that have taken place are not the last and that there will be more to come very shortly.
  I am greatly disturbed at present trends of fuel consumption. If oil consumption is not controlled in some way, our basic industry of mining is bound to retract. It should be Government policy to see that our own coal is used where it is the natural fuel to use. The Government ought to give freedom to the National Coal Board to compete with oil and to ensure that our future economy shall not be dislocated by too much dependency upon oil.
  For all these reasons, I ask that the four generating stations now scheduled for oil should revert to coal. That would give employment to 4,000 miners and a market for our small coal. If we now run down the coalmining industry we shall be in a hopeless position if we get into trouble about oil supplies, because we shall not be able to reopen the mines,
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  especially if we are in a recession, and the oil generating stations will be helpless. The constructive approach is to have a plan for fuel and power, with a clear conception of the present situation and its possibilities, in the midst of continuous change.
  The oil companies are countering our criticism of the extent to which they are encroaching on our traditional preserves of coal by pointing out that present circumstances are temporary and that before long the fuel demands of the country will increase at a rate that will allow plenty of room for coal, oil and, later, atomic energy. It is apparent to anyone who studies the situation that the conditions of the early post-war years are unlikely to be repeated. I say, as one belonging to the mining industry, that we must expect competition from oil. In the use of oil in industry, generating stations and elsewhere, we must remember that, apart from the social problem, the danger is that if oil is allowed to displace coal, in conditions of recession a large capacity of coal could be lost that might be needed in the future.
  On 14th July last year, I tried to put forward what I thought would be a fuel policy for the nation. I have no desire to change one word that I used in that speech. It is the responsibility of the Government to ensure that we have a prosperous mining industry and that the supply of fuel to our generating stations ought not to create unemployment in our basic industry of mining and make us dependent upon oil to the extent that it is doing. I see no policy in making sheiks in the Middle East richer and miners unemployed. I therefore ask the Paymaster-General to give consideration to the suggestions I have made in my speech about putting these four stations on coal.
  7.58 p.m.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: The opening speeches of my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General and the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) were characterised by the customary paeans of praise for a nationalised industry, in this case the nationalised electricity industry. My right hon. Friend competes once again with the right hon. Gentleman on the Opposition Front Bench in seeking to

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  demonstrate that one right hon. Gentleman loves the nationalised industry better than the other. Does my right hon. Friend wish to contradict me?
  Mr. Maudling: I certainly wish to contradict my hon. Friend, but to contradict him fully and to give full justification for my contradiction would involve language not wholly Parliamentary.
  Mr. Nabarro: I repeat to my right hon. Friend that the correct interpretation of his speech was a paean of praise for the nationalised industry: everything it had done since the days of nationalisation was perfect. Not a single note of criticism was to be found in his speech, notwithstanding the fact that every independent observer of the affairs of this immensely expensive nationalised industry has had a great deal of legitimate complaint to level against its operations. [Interruption.]I see that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath), the Chief Whip, has just come in to listen to my speech, which is very right and proper. Perhaps I may proceed.
  There is a great deal of criticism in connection with the affairs and the finances of the nationalised electricity industry. I conceive it to be of much greater importance in a financial context than any of our other State boards because of the equation which seems to have been established in capital investment during the last few years. Capital investment in electricity is now equal to that of coal, transport and gas combined. Electricity is far and away the most expensive in terms of capital of our State industries. It is evident and manifest, from the speeches made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) and my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) that, on this side of the House at all events, there is the view that three desirable reforms might be considered to be within the terms of the Bill and that suitable Amendments to embody them may be moved at a later stage.
  The first, as I understand it—and I am wholly in agreement with it—is that we are seeking to authorise an increase in borrowing powers which carries us forward for far too long a period. I have no desire to seek to legislate by an increase in borrowing powers forward to
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  beyond the next General Election but one. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West made it abundantly clear that the operations, the development, the planning of the Central Electricity Generating Board would not be inhibited in any way if this period were reduced.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West also made it quite clear in the remarks he addressed to this particular aspect of the matter, when he said that the suggestion to cover a long period ahead was merely a matter of convenience. I am not concerned with the convenience of the bureaucracy or anybody else. I am concerned with the proper application and utilisation of capital resources which are exceedingly scarce. There is no greater protagonist in the House of Commons or elsewhere than I am of the need for further and continuing expansion of electricity resources for industrial production and productivity, for enlargement of farm output, for commercial purposes, and for labour saving, cleanliness and efficiency in the home. They are all very desirable purposes, but to provide the financial sinews for them is extremely expensive, as I demonstrated a few moments ago, and our primary concern ought to be the correct application of capital and its most efficient use.
  I therefore join with my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West and my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, and I shall endeavour to crystallise what they said. I shall seek later in this Bill to reduce by 50 per cent. the ceiling authorised for the borrowing powers with a view to cutting in half the span of years ahead for which we are seeking to legislate. In doing so, I do not believe that I shall inhibit in any way the legitimate development and expansion of generation facilities.
  The second amendment I shall want to see is in connection with Parliamentary accountability. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West was quite brief in his references to this. He referred, rather kindly I thought, to the history of the Coal Board's borrowing powers in this House. I say to my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General that when his predecessor, my right hon. Friend—with emphasis on "Friend"— the Member for Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) brought the Coal (Borrowing Powers) Bill to this House in 1956. I was

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  very pleased to lead twenty-six Conservative Members into the Lobby against it—for one reason only. I wanted the Coal Board to have the extra money as I want the electricity boards to have the extra money now; but I want an annual Statutory Instrument to be brought to this House in respect of the investment in the same fashion as for the National Coal Board.
  In the event, I did not get all I asked for. I did not get an assurance of a Statutory Instrument every year, but what I did get was an assurance that we should have a Statutory Instrument whenever the cumulative borrowing of the Coal Board exceeded in any one year the cumulative borrowing in the preceding year by an amount in excess of £75 million, and thus on 3rd December last we had a full day's debate on a Statutory Instrument in respect of the capital investment programme of the National Coal Board.
  If it is necessary for a capital investment sum of £100 million for the National Coal Board, it is trebly necessary for the sum of £300 million per annum contemplated, I believe, in each of the next five or six years in the case of the electricity boards. I am sorry that my right hon. Friend is indicating dissent by shaking his head. He ought to support this admirable piece of Parliamentary accountability.
  Mr. Maudling: The argument my hon. Friend is making is very interesting, but I was shaking my head about the £300 million, which I think is quite wrong.
  Mr. Nabarro: Does my right hon. Friend think that? I will deal with him on that point. My arithmetic is always at least as good as his. He gave the figures, £980 million new capital for 1958 to 1965 to be found from internal resources, £1,150 million by new borrowing to be found in six years, a total of £2,130 million over six years. If £2,130 million is divided by six the right hon. Gentleman will deduce the answer is £355 million per annum.
  Mr. Maudling rose—
  Mr. Nabarro: Wait a moment; I have not finished. My right hon. Friend must not be impetuous. He had a long innings and I have sat here for five hours waiting to answer him. Three hundred and fifty-five million pounds annually is the
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  aggregation of what the electricity boards must find from their own internal resources and from new borrowing. I am perfectly prepared to concede that what we debated on the Coal Board Statutory Instrument was new borrowing, whereas now I am talking about the total investment in respect of electricity and I am not therefore comparing exactly like with like. [An HON. MEMBER: "Rubbish."] It is not rubbish. It is an argument subscribed to from all parts of the House.
  If my right hon. Friend would like me to do so, I shall put it exactly analogously, the Coal Board versus the Electricity Board. The new borrowing of electricity boards, on his own confession, is £1,150 million over six years. Again if my arithmetic is correct, that to the nearest £1 million is £192 million per annum. That is roughly twice as much as the Coal Board's new borrowing. Therefore, if it is necessary to have a Statutory Instrument every year in the instance of the National Coal Board, it is doubly necessary—[An HON. MEMBER: "Trebly."]—for the electricity boards. Whether it is double or treble does not detract from the principle I am trying to enunciate.
  The principle is that this House should have an opportunity every year to debate the capital investment programme of each of the major nationalised industries. It is a matter which I believe finds support equally on the benches opposite and among my hon. Friends. I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Awbery) and the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins) are nodding agreement with me. I know I have agreement on many of these matters—
  Mr. Denis Howell: Not support, sympathy.
  Mr. Nabarro: Sympathy and support. The third point which I conceive as very important was touched on by my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West. It is that we should whether on this Bill or administratively have the equivalent of a Comptroller and Auditor General with a small, compact, skilled and suitably qualified staff to inquire into the affairs of certain of the electricity boards. That system has proceeded very well within Government Departments in dealing with estimates, votes and expenditure for

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  very many years past. Having regard to the fact that the nationalised industries are now most largely financed directly from the Treasury and also very largely as a direct consequence of the Chancellor's budgetry surplus in each of the last few years, it seems to me equally important that there should be a Comptroller and Auditor General specifically to inquire into cases of extravagance, specifically to inquire into cases of misspent funds, specifically to inquire—
  Mr. Fernyhough: Compensation to landlords.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am in agreement. The hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) had a lot to say about compensation paid to landowners in the Highlands. If we had a Comptroller and Auditor General for the Electricity Boards I should be very willing and anxious that one of the things he should inquire into—I should give him very direct terms of reference to go to the Highlands to find out—would be whether the compensation paid to those landowners is excessive, and to report. I would also say that a matter of much greater importance is surely that the Comptroller and Auditor General should be sent off to a number of area electricity boards in England to inquire as to their load factor.
  The load factor has been touched on in this debate very inadequately. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth has an excellent memory. It must be at least six years ago that I intervened—and he kindly gave way as he generally does—in one of his speeches. I said that raising the load factor by 1 per cent. would yield approximately £21 million economy in capital investment in the year that the load factor went up by 1 per cent. That was a rough and ready calculation, but accurate enough for Parliamentary purposes. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is accurate enough for Parliamentary purposes, because Parliament is not a technical assembly and nothing bores the House of Commons more than long and detailed technical dissertations. Therefore, all of us who have talked about load factor have endeavoured to do so in the broadest non-technical sense.
  There have been two persons who have commented quite impartially on the affairs of the nationalised electricity industry during the last couple of years.
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  One is a man who has been mentioned today, Mr. Kelf-Cohen. He is not a dyed-in-the-wool Tory. He is a scholar and university lecturer who for many years was a Socialist. For many years he served in the Ministry of Fuel and Power, as it was then, in a senior capacity. He tried to make nationalisation work. He was one—no doubt the right hon. Member for Blyth knew him—who would not be biased or partisan.
  Mr. Robens: Not at that time but subsequently there was a great change when promotion came along.
  Mr. Nabarro: I do not think that we want to be rude personally about, him. I want to quote from his book "Nationalisation in Britain", which I commend to the House. I emphasise that it is direct borrowing of huge sums of money that we are discussing today, and I wish that the Paymaster-General had not looked down his nose and spoken in such derogatory terms about thousands of millions of £s. One million is important enough for me—it is all the taxpayers' money. I think that the Paymaster-General is much too inclined to underestimate the impact on the economy which the finding of these huge sums is going to entail. I will quote to the House what Mr. Kelf-Cohen wrote on page 103:
  "If the load factor could be permanently improved by 5 per cent. it would mean a vast saving in capital. Electrical engineers are anxious to use the most efficient stations and classify them most scrupulously according to their thermal efficiency—though even the most efficient loses 70 per cent. of the value of the fuel consumed. But to search for ways and means to maximise the use of the vast plant under their care does not seem to concern them. To do so would require some unorthodox thinking and departure from tradition. There would have to be some drastic modifications in tariffs; all this would not be easy and rather unpopular in the industries."
  Later he wrote:
  "We would, therefore, suggest that the Minister of Power should give the Generating Board and the Area Boards a general direction under Section 8 (1) of the Electricity Act, 1957, to take all steps possible to improve their load factors and to include in their Annual Reports"—
  I commend these words to the right hon. Gentleman—
  "a chapter showing what steps they have taken for that purpose and what has been the result of their efforts."

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  Does the right hon. Gentleman remember—he has been in every electricity debate with me during the last 10 years—that for three consecutive years I drew attention to the fact that the Electricity Board's Annual Reports did not include even a reference to the load factor. Then, when they started printing it, they tucked it away in the Appendix, and finally, as a result of my caustic criticisms and in view of the importance of this figure, they transferred it forward into the" main Report, but even then gave it only a few lines.
  Why am I so keen on the load factor, apart from the point which I made in response to the right hon. Gentleman? The other impartial investigation of the industry has been made by Herbert. The hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. Palmer) never tires of telling the House of Commons and public gatherings that Herbert commented favourably upon the efficiency of the industry. I do not think that he did; not in the context of the employment of capital and not in the context of cost consciousness. He wrote these words. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General will observe them, and I ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, who I understand is winding up the debate, to tell us what steps have been taken by the Government in response to this indictment of the wastage of capital money and the lack of cost consciousness. In Cmd. 9672 paragraph 346, page 91, he stated:
  "As we shall show, there is ample scope for an attack upon costs, in the scale of capital expenditure, in the utilisation of capital, in the use of manpower and in other directions. In our opinion, the industry is languid"—
  I repeat "languid"—
  "in its approach to these problems and we should expect to see a far more vigorous approach before the expedient of raising prices is contemplated."
  For an impartial investigating body to use the word "languid" in connection with a State Board is just about as savage an indictment as can be made of its operations and its employment of capital resources. That is why my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West and my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West and myself—I am in exceptionally respectable company today, two ex-Treasury Ministers; it is impeccable company that I keep these days—in the light of the Herbert Report, and in the
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  light of what Mr. Kelf-Cohen published a short while ago, want a much more detailed scrutiny of capital investment, appointment of a Comptroller and Auditor General and a reduction of the scale of the increased borrowing powers proposed in this Bill embodied in an Appropriate Amendment at a later stage.
  There is one other matter which I must touch upon. I disagree profoundly with the Paymaster-General—not a new occurrence, for we have different approaches to matters of this kind—on the sale of appliances and hire purchase. I say today what I have said in this House on many previous occasions, that I do not believe that it should be any part of the purpose or policy of a nationalised electricity undertaking to promote the sale of electrical appliances. I believe that the purpose of the undertaking is to generate electricity and to distribute electricity. Within the subject that we are discussing today, which is the increase in financial borrowing powers, this looms especially important and large. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) rather tended to understate what are the sums of money involved.
  I wrote to Sir Henry Self, the Chairman of the Electricity Council, and asked him for the figures for 1958. He gave them to me, with the greatest courtesy and full explanations, almost by return of post. He said that in 1958 the total sale of electrical appliances by the nationalised undertakings, including contracting, amounted to £46 million. Of that, £19 million was in respect of self-financed hire-purchase sales. Since then, however, the credit squeeze has been relaxed. Those sales will doubtless increase very considerably. I would expect them this year to be at least 50 per cent. above the £19 million last year, if not more. I would say that this year the electricity boards will sell about £30 million of appliances on hire purchase.
  But the boards do not have to finance only in respect of one year. They have to carry the finance very often for two years or longer. I am informed, reliably and independently, that the cycle for hire purchase for electrical appliances is averaging two years. It is therefore a question of two years' financing, on the present scale at a rate of about £30 million a year. Whether the sum involved in the aggregation for outstanding hire-purchase contracts by these area boards is £40 million

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  in 1959 as an average, or whether it is £50 million or £60 million, does not matter a great deal, in my view; it is the principle which matters.
  Mr. A. Woodburn rose—
  Mr. Nabarro: This is a difficult argument. May I finish it, and then I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman.
  This is the money which the area electricity boards are having to find out of their working capital in order to finance hire-purchase transactions. If no such hire-purchase transactions were undertaken by the boards, then an equivalent sum of money would be available to them for essential capital investment. In my view that is an irrefutable argument. If that sum of money were available, at an average of £50 million, for capital investment, it would diminish by £50 million the sum of new borrowings which the board would otherwise require to go to the Treasury to obtain, out of taxpayers' funds. It is for this reason that I say to my right hon. Friend—and I shall come back to it when I get an opportunity later in Committee—that I do not want the electricity boards to finance by themselves any hire-purchase transactions whatever.
  May I put a point to the right hon. Member for Blyth? There were exchanges this afternoon between him and my right hon. Friend as to what rearrangements are to be made in respect of hire purchase. Whatever is arranged, one thing should be certain: the hire-purchase terms which an area board gives for an electrical appliance should be the same as those which private enterprise gives. The right hon. Member for Blyth will agree with that. All private enterprise underwrites hire-purchase finance by sub-contracting to finance houses.
  As an example, if the right hon. Member bought a motor car on hire purchase, the motor car dealer who sold the car would not himself finance the hire-purchase contract. He would immediately sub-contract it to a finance house. Why should not the whole of this State board burden of £40 million to £60 million for hire purchase on electrical appliances be sub-contracted to finance houses by the area boards, so that the boards can use fully that money for essential capital investment for generation and distribution,
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  which is their primary function, not the sale of appliances?
  Mr. Woodburn: Is the hon. Member aware that long before the industry was nationalised, the local authorities con trolling these electricity concerns hired out apparatus on the same basis as that on which the present boards are hiring it? Why this prejudice against the system simply because it is done by a nationalised board instead of a local authority board?
  Mr. Nabarro: There is no prejudice at all. The right hon. Gentleman's point about the pre-nationalisation boards and the municipalised undertakings selling appliances is so hoary that it is almost growing grey whiskers. It is perfectly true that in the early days of electricity, to obtain diversification of load and improvement of load factor, the pre-nationalisation undertakings sold space heaters and water heaters and—
  Mr. Palmer: It spread to cookers.
  Mr. Nabarro: Perhaps the hon. Member will permit me to finish my sentence. As time went on, and immediately before nationalisation, it spread to cookers, but it did not spread, for example, to television sets and radio sets. The right hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) says, "They were not there". He has given exactly the right answer. Today they are there. The Midlands Electricity Board, for example, sells large numbers of television sets on hire purchase.
  Mr. Woodburn: Good.
  Mr. Nabarro: But it is using Treasury funds, subscribed at a preferential rate, in order to sell television sets which, as far as I am aware, in no way enhances the business of generating and distributing electricity.
  Mr. Maudling: On a point of fact, I said this afternoon that any expansion of finance for hire purchase would not come from the Treasury but would come from commercial sources and presumably the banks. I said that there would be no more Treasury money for the finance of hire purchase.
  Mr. Nabarro: That does not detract an iota from my argument. I am grateful for the intervention. I have pointed out that there is continuing a substantial sum

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  of money which is divorced from the general purpose of electricity generation and distribution—working capital which ought to be applied to new capital investment by the board and which is locked up and sterilised in hire-purchase contracts. This is a highly controversial matter. I would not expect to get total agreement upon it.
  Mr. Blyton: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Nabarro: Does the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring wish to intervene?
  Mr. Blyton: No. I merely said, "Hear, hear".
  Mr. Nabarro: I should not expect to get agreement on such a controversial matter any more than we should get agreement upon the reasons prompting the National Union of Mineworkers installing in its headquarters in Euston Road, London, an oil-burning central heating plant, when the hon. Member is bleating about the continuing conversion of plants from oil to coal. He should take charity to his own headquarters and teach them to use coal, not oil, before he says "Hear, hear" to any of my remarks.
  I am concerned with the dissipation of capital resources by these area boards. There must be a concerted effort to improve load factor. In my view there must be an end to the diversion of capital to extra, commercial purposes such as financing hire-purchase contracts for electrical appliances. We must have in the House very much better Parliamentary accountability for the huge sums of money which these electricity boards now seek to borrow.
  I will support the Second Reading of the Bill tonight, and I assure my right hon. Friend that I shall not repeat my performance of May, 1956, by forcing a Division against Second Reading; but I promise him, equally, that there will be a detailed and meticulous scrutiny of the Bill in Committee, with appropriate Amendments to support the principles which I have sought to enunciate in my short speech.
  8.29 p.m.
  Mr. Denis Howell: I am very happy to have this opportunity to speak in this debate, but
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  I shall not be long because I know that other hon. Members wish to speak.
  I should like, first, to comment on the extremely remarkable and interesting speech we have just heard from the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). I think that if anywhere in this country there is room for investigation and for Parliamentary accountability it is in the growing practice of usury and the finance of hire purchase. A general discussion of that would be outside the scope of the debate on this Bill, but it is an interesting fact that hon. Members on the other side of the House have made the point in their speeches today that householders and consumers should be placed more and more in the hands of the finance houses and moneylenders. That is something of which very careful note ought to be taken throughout the country.
  I do not claim to be a financier or to understand the multifarious activities of the City, but I am able to understand and appreciate the success of the electricity industry over the last ten years, and its success where it matters most, and that is among the householders and consumers. Chiefly, I want to talk tonight about the success of the industry in the area which I represent, that of the Midlands Electricity Board. It is interesting to note that in the ten years from 1948 to 1958 the Midlands Electricity Board has been able to sell 193,900 cookers, 109,600 water heaters, more than 30,000 refrigerators, 86,400 washing machines and 119,800 vacuum cleaners. That is a total of more than 500,000 appliances sold through the offices of the board since vesting day, in 1948.
  I say to hon. Members opposite who are objecting to this very strongly indeed that 500,000 families in the Midlands, many of them, no doubt, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Kidderminster, ought not to be put into a strait-jacket as a result of the opposition of hon. Members on the Government benches.
  Mr. Nabarro rose—
  Mr. Howell: I will give way in a minute, if the hon. Member will wait.
  There ought to be opportunity of choice, and I do not think that it is a laudable thing for the hon. Member for Kidderminster to tell us that his constituents ought not to be able to buy their

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  appliances through the electricity board s offices if they want to do so, and as, in such large numbers, they have demonstrated they wish to do. Nor, alternatively, ought he to tell us that if they do buy their appliances through the board the cost of those appliances ought to be dearer because the full play of the market ought to be brought into effect in hire-purchase.
  That is another interesting example of how hon. Members of the party opposite, who were returned to reduce the cost of living and to mend the hole in the purse, are now busy trying to put all the households, and particularly in the Midlands, into pawn, into the hands of the moneylenders and City magnates. I am prepared to give way now if the hon. Members wants to interrupt.
  Mr. Nabarro: I do not know that the hon. Gentleman is deliberately twisting what I said, but I merely said that there should be completely fair competition if the boards continue to sell appliances. Personally, I do not think it should be any part of their purpose or policy to sell appliances. As for all those figures the hon. Member quoted about the number of cookers sold in the Midlands, I would say that people would buy cookers from private enterprise shops if there were no electricity board shops.
  Mr. Howell: I took down the words of the hon. Member. He said it was "not the duty of the board to sell appliances". The point I am making is that that only shows that the hon. Member wishes to restrict the avenues open to his constituents and to consumers generally where they may buy their appliances. Surely the hon. Member and his hon. Friends have not so far departed from the principles of fair competition and free enterprise that they now object to a little bit of honest enterprise on behalf of the electricity boards.
  Incidentally, the figure of 500,000 appliances that I gave represents more than £11 million worth, excluding Purchase Tax. I want to make the point that part of the success story of electricity is in the amount of business which has been put into the hands of the manufacturing industry, and in the number of people who now have electricity who never had it before, and in the expansion
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  of the services, compared with what existed in 1948.
  That £11 million worth of items sold in the Midlands alone over these ten years represents a remarkable contribution to the economy of the country, and from it the electricity industry can take great heart. I can only regret that I have not the figures for the sale of all appliances over the whole country. If I had they would show a very significant contribution indeed by nationalised electricity to the economy of private industry which is passed on to the country as a whole.
  A point has been made from the other side of the House about accountability and how far the electricity industry should be given carte blanche in development and in its borrowing programme. I certainly subscribe heartily to the view that there should be more debates in the House and more accountability. I certainly think that the electricity industry, indeed any industry that is financed mainly by the taxpayer and the Exchequer, should not be straitjacketed to the extent that these services are by annual estimates and annual amounts of money, which cause hardship in planning and, in my experience, some waiting. Six years may be too long. I have an open mind about that, but the other extreme, for example in the Health Service, is far too short.
  When my colleagues and I have taken up matters with the Birmingham Regional Hospital Board, for example, we have found that the board is unable to plan sufficiently far ahead because of the existing financial system. I know through my service on a hospital management committee that this system not only restricts the future planning of the Health Service but creates waste, because the regional boards tend to underplan.
  The result is that at this time of the year they begin to realise that they will not spend all the money that the Treasury has allocated to them. They then get into a panic and write to various boards and say, "Can you spend this money before 31st March?" It may be spent on important projects. I am not suggesting that it is wasted, but it is bad planning because the sum total of that money could probably have been better used on a major project which could not be finished before 31st March in any one year. That is where the money should

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  go rather than into a series of expensive, higgledy-piggledy items, as I think the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) described them.
  Mr. F. H. Hayman: Will my hon. Friend remember that the rural development of electricity has been hindered by this haphazard allocation which dissipates the resources, technical and monetary, of the electricity boards?
  Mr. Howell: I am quite prepared to believe that. It is a point well worth making.
  There is a very good case for change in the direction to which the Bill takes us, although I am not entirely ready to agree with the extension of powers for six years which the Bill provides. There is certainly a case for investigation on the ground put forward by the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), that the Bill conceivably could take us outside the next Parliament let alone this one. I agree that there is a great case to be made for more accountability on the part of the nationalised industries in this respect.
  As to the success story of electricity, I think it is a convenient time in the debate to have a look at the number of existing tariffs. The hon. Member for Ilford, South, who is not now in his place, said he could not subscribe, and did not think that anyone else would subscribe, to the view that the situation in the electricity industry was higgledy-piggledy in 1948 before nationalisation. I would point out, however, that 302 different tariffs existed then in the area of the Midlands Electricity Board alone. The board inherited 302 different means of assessing charges, and the highest unit price in 1948 was as much as 8d. When the hon. Member for Ilford, South spoke of the situation in 1948, I believe that it was an hon. Member who represents a constituency in South Worcestershire who said "Hear, hear."
  There was a very interesting correspondence in the Press of South Worcestershire the other day, in which consumers, no doubt very good Conservatives, complained about the increase in electricity charges in South Worcestershire. They thought that it was a terrible thing, and they were writing to their Conservative Member deploring it. I would point out that with the increase in the price of
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  electricity in South Worcestershire, the price is now at exactly the level at which it was when the board took over in 1948.
  Allowing for all the increases in the cost of materials, in wages, for the galloping inflation under this Government, and everything else, the people of South Worcestershire are now in the position, due to the nationalisation of electricity, that they are only being asked to pay the same amount for electricity which they were paying in 1948. There is very little to complain about there in the Conservative area of South-West Worcestershire, which used to languish in the old days under some of the old private companies, which charged 8d. per unit. These are very remarkable figures.
  It is the same with rural development, and we all want to see more rural development. Do not let us forget that the more rural development there is, the more these areas are linked up, the more the element of subsidy comes in. None of us complain about that. We are all agreed that electricity has to be brought to the countryside, because a prosperous agriculture is important to the country, but do not let hon. Members opposite remember the impositions on the housewife and the household and forget the subsidies which have been given to make electricity available in rural areas.
  Since vesting day, in the Midlands, which is not known particularly as an agricultural area, but is much more an industrial one, 13,000 farms have been linked up to the electricity supply. The number of other rural premises connected is 86,000, so that 93 per cent. of all farms and agricultural premises or rural premises in the Midlands are now linked up—an increase, because of the nationalisation of electricity, of 43 per cent. This is a wonderful achievement. The amount of capital spent on rural development since vesting day is £8,900,000.
  I want to give some comparative figures, quite briefly and without a great deal of comment, but which, I think, should be placed on record, because we have now had a decade of nationalised electricity. The amount of money paid by the Midlands Electricity Board in the first year for electricity from the national generating board was £11,620,000. In the tenth year—1957–58—it was

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  £35,641,000. In the same period, depreciation increased from £1,600,000 to over £3 million.
  Let us also note the burden of interest that has been put upon the Midland Electricity Board. Interest rose from £745,000, which was the figure when the board took over, to £2,114,000 in 1957–58. In all that time, the expansion of industry, the linking up of rural areas and new household consumers have brought an increase in unit sales from 4,059 million units to 7,837 million units in 1957–58, a magnificent achievement. That is the increase in the amount of electricity that has been sold.
  I also want the House to note these figures. In that time, coal costs have risen from 54s. 9d. per ton to 84s. 3d. per ton; and this is an extremely important item in the cost of electricity, because each 5s. increase in a ton of coal costs the Midland Electricity Board £1,360,000 per year, a fact which has to be borne in mind. Turning to wages costs, skilled fitters' rates have increased from 2s. 9½d;. per hour in 1948 to 4s. 8½d.; per hour with 8s. 3d. per week productivity allowance, in 1958, so that it can be seen that increased wages for people in the Midlands Electricity Board's area are equivalent to about 2s. an hour.
  There is also a new system of rating coming into operation which will hit the electricity industry but which will be of great help to local authorities. In other words, the industry will bear a much larger share of the rating burden, and whereas, in the Midlands, the rates provided by the industry this year amounted to £980,000, in three years' time the figure will be £1,390,000. This is a formidable increase to be found by any industry in three years.
  In spite of all this, the average price of electricity per unit received by the Board in 1948–49 was 1·07d;. and at the end of March, 1958 it was 1·443d;. Those figures are important because they show clearly that if we take comparative figures, although the cost of living generally has gone up in those ten years by 50 per cent., although the cost of labour has increased considerably more than 50 per cent., although the cost of coal has gone up in proportion to the figures I have given, because of the efficient manage-
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  ment of the industry and its expansion the increase in the price per unit in the Midlands is only 35·4; per cent. It can be clearly seen, therefore, that the electricity industry, certainly in the Midlands, is making a great contribution towards stabilising the cost of living—indeed, to reducing it—and the figures are a great testimony to its success.
  It is interesting, too, to note that although there has been this great expansion—over 400,000 new consumers in the Midlands have been connected to the supply in the ten years since electricity was nationalised—there has not been a corresponding increase in the number of the Board's employees. We are often told that nationalisation means armies of new workers, yet the numbers have increased only from 9,300 to 13,100, an increase of 3,800. Only 3,800 new employees to deal with over 400,000 new consumers and a great rural electrification scheme. No doubt that is why, to a great extent, the increase in the cost of electricity supplied by the Midlands Electricity Board has been kept well below the cost of all other consumer goods bought by the people of the Midlands.
  It is right that such figures should be given in this debate, because there can be no doubt that there is great justification of the conception of this nationalised industry and its performance. There is also great justification of this Bill. If any private industry could tell the same story about costs which the Midlands Electricity Board can tell now, after ten years of increasing costs and of galloping inflation, people would not be nearly so worried about their financial position as they are at present. This Bill, therefore, thoroughly merits an unopposed Second Reading.
  8.50 p.m.
  Mr. J. C. George: I want to deal with only one point, perhaps the most important of all, in connection with the electricity industry, and that is the load factor. Looking at the results over the years since nationalisation, and admitting the great success of many fields of the industry, one sees an absolute failure to do anything about increasing the load factor. In many ways the boards are powerless. In Scotland the South of Scotland Board and the Hydro-electric Board are diligent in seeking off-peak loads and have had some successes but only in small schemes.

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  I suggest there are fairly substantial areas where examination would show how the load factor could be substantially improved. I believe that a great deal can be done in collaboration with the National Coal Board in transferring the whole of the pumping load of the collieries to the night shift. It might pay the electricity boards to meet part of the cost of the extra storage space needed underground. From my experience I know that it is possible to create extra storage space and pump nothing during the day. There is a very wide and substantial field for examination, and I believe the results would be very important.
  Much can be done in many works in the country. We have seen how N.I.F.E.S. has succeeded in saving fuel in factories where there was lack of care in the use of coal. There is a lack of care in the use of electricity, and it might be said that we need an electrical N.I.F.E.S. in the future to help with the problem of the load factor and to out down capital expenditure. There are many industries where part of the load could be profitably transferred to the night shift in order to get the cheap off-peak rate in the evening and avoid the heavier charge during the day. Much can also be done in making use of peak load rates for heavy duty motors. There are other ways in which much can be done. For instance, in brickworks it is often profitable to do all the grinding of clay on the night shift, thus taking the motors off the day load.
  All these things show that there are possibilities of improving the load factor. If my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) is right in saying that a 1 per cent. rise means a saving of £21 million in plant, this matter should be pursued diligently. I am sure that a genuine effort is being made, but it is being directed along the wrong lines. I hope that some of my suggestions will be acceptable to the electricity industry and will result in some improvement in the load factor.
  8.54 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Spriggs: I am glad to support the Bill. It is very important that we should look at the questions raised in the House, and particularly those raised by hon. Members opposite.
  Reference was made to the electricity industry being a monopoly. I do not
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  think we should have much to fear from monopolies if every monopoly were answerable to Parliament as the electricity industry is today. Monopolies do not come under the stern criticism of Parliament as the electricity industry does. When we talk of monopoly, it is important to understand what we are talking about. Hon. Members may not be aware that I.C.I, is producing its own electricity. Hon. Members opposite have criticised electricity boards for their hire-purchase schemes. I wonder why they did not criticise the chemical industry, namely, I.C.I., for producing electricity. I.C.I, has just completed a huge generating station, which is private property.
  Hon. Members opposite should be careful when they refer to the waste of money. Some people have memories. Not long ago we had Suez, and now we have trouble in Cyprus. Hon. Members claim to believe in freedom and democracy and they should allow the public at least the right to choose where it will buy electrical appliances.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Byth (Mr. Robens) mentioned the standardisation of electrical appliances, and we can all appreciate the importance of that. In co-operation with many private manufacturers, the industry has been responsible not only for standardisation, but for many safety measures.
  I have only a short time, so I shall confine myself to referring briefly to the successes of electrification in rural areas. I wish I had time to give the figures. We have been told that the figures are dry and that it is difficult to sit and listen to columns of figures being read. However, these figures are vitally important and show the success which this nationalised industry has achieved. We are proud of what the Labour Party did in 1948. If it is necessary to do it again, we shall know what to do.
  There has been reference to the Government's approach in 1956, when it asked the industry to turn from coal burning to oil burning because of the shortage of coal. While we would never claim that it was right to break short-term or long-term contracts, did the Minister put on pressure for those contracts to be placed? At least he should be big enough to give assistance to the National Coal Board by increasing the use of small coal for the

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  production of electricity, especially when that small coal is merely lying in heaps around the collieries.
  In my constituency of St. Helens there is one of the most modern generating stations in the country, Bold Power Station. I should like to see more like it developed. It stands almost in a colliery yard so that coal can leave the pit on a conveyor belt and go straight to the generating station, thus eliminating transport wastage. This is the type of economy which we require.
  I go one step further than that. I should not like the country's economy to get into serious difficulties because we could no longer obtain oil to keep industry going. It would take years to switch from oil burners back to coal burners. The country has natural fuel resources and I should not like its economy to be robbed because of the shortsightedness of a Government. Will the Minister confirm or deny that he put on pressure for the placing of contracts for oil burners during the period of the coal shortage?
  9.2 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: The formal proposal in the Bill is to raise the ceiling of the borrowing by the electricity boards in Great Britain, that means England, Wales and Scotland. The debate has provided us with yet another opportunity to consider the electricity supply industry's affairs in general.
  It is worth remembering that in the last three or four years we have had a number of debates on the annual reports of the electricity industry. We have also had the Herbert Committee investigation; we have had many weeks of discussion on the Electricity Act, 1957, and, in addition, we have discussed the Report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, on the working of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board. That is all to the good, but if it is suggested, as the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) seemed to suggest, that there has been some lack of Parliamentary examination or Parliamentary accountability in the matter I will simply say that it might be good for them and the public if some of the large-scale private businesses in this country were subjected to the same kind of open scrutiny every so often.
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  We all enjoyed the speech of the right hon. Member for Flint, West. He made one sound point and one point with which we do not greatly quarrel. He suggested that if the proper machinery can be devised—and he made some suggestions in the matter—there should be greater financial accountability by the nationalised industries, including electricity. He said that we might strengthen the existing Select Committee on Nationalised Industries by giving it the services of an expert adviser. I have served on that Committee from the beginning, and his suggestion might easily be welcomed by it. Certainly, it is a good point, and not, I think, violently controversial between the parties.
  But the right hon. Gentleman rather spoiled himself when he expressed the most extraordinary view that the electricity supply industry was better organised when it had 500 separate undertakings. He should remember history. That arrangement was not condemned by the coming into force of the Electricity Act, 1947; it had already been condemned in 1935, when the McGowan Committee reported upon the organisation of electricity distribution. That Committee said that the industry should be rationalised and that the existing arrangements were out of date. I accept that the Committee did not advocate nationalisation, but it did not support the existence of 500 separate electricity undertakings—and it was appointed not by a Labour Government but by a Conservative Government before the war, and it also reported to a Conservative Government.
  The right hon. Member for Flint, West rightly did not challenge the main purposes of the Bill. We must all accept that the country must have electricity in abundance. It must have power stations, transmission lines, and distribution systems. It is equally obvious that we shall need these things in increasing quantities and capacities as the years pass, because they are the very foundation of our national productivity and prosperity. It is a platitude to say that in every industrial country in the world, year by year, as living standards advance and productivity increases, labour saving, comfort and leisure are welcomed, and the demand for electricity rises if the price is reasonable—and our country is no exception. The right hon. Gentleman the

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  Paymaster-General seemed to think that there was a possibility of the curve of demand flattening out a little, but for myself I think that it is likely to go on in a straight line.
  If we agree that we must have electricity, and the plant, cable systems, appliances and apparatus that go with it, about what, if anything, are we disagreeing today? I wonder whether the charge is seriously being made by some hon. Members opposite that the existing electricity boards, in providing these physical assets which we must have, have been using capital unnecessarily and wastefully. If that is the charge it is a serious one.
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) quoted in aid the Herbert Committee's Report. He said that I supported it. I support it where I believe it is sound, but where it is unsound in my view it does not have my support. I am sure that the same approach goes for him. It is no use, therefore, his waving the Herbert Committee's Report at me. Although that Committee talked about a certain slackness in the industry's activities it did not produce any actual evidence—
  Mr. Nabarro: The word is "languid".
  Mr. Palmer: I am grateful. Although it used that word, however, it did not produce any hard evidence. Indeed, judged by the facts, everything points the other way.
  I have done what other hon. Members have done in preparing for the debate. I have collected a number of points which are very favourable to the electricity boards, but I shall not weary the House by quoting them. They have been quoted already, and, indeed, were given at the opening of the debate by the Minister himself. But there was one particular point which is of great interest, and I was glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. D. Howell) brought it out again.
  A constant charge is made against the nationalised industries that they use manpower wastefully and that their staff establishments continue to grow. We know that is not the case in the power stations, because in 1947–48, before nationalisation, the manpower per 1,000 kilowatts was 2·74 men—I do not know what ·74 of a man is, but that is how it works out
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  when we do the division sum—whereas it is down to 1·73; today. I refer to the figure again to show that Parkinson's alleged law does not seem to be operating in the nationalised electricity supply industry.
  On this side of the House I do not think, as I have said already, that we are against having greater financial accountability of the boards to Parliament if acceptable machinery for that purpose can be devised. That is largely the difficulty, as I am sure the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) would agree. But to be fair to the electricity supply industry, I must stress the facts of the record to date. There is no evidence that the industry has been using capital or finance wastefully and inefficiently. Its achievements have to be seen also against the background of the last ten difficult years, when 42 per cent. of its development has been from the industry's own resources.
  It is often said that electricity supply has a monopoly. That is true in the territorial sense. For that matter, it always was true that electricity undertakings had a territorial monopoly. But the industry has very serious competition from other fuel sources. It is in obvious competition with its sister nationalised industry, gas, and it is increasingly in competition with oil. Like any other service, electricity supply is in general competition with many other kinds of consumer amenity. I might instance foreign holidays, which are on the increase. The citizen who takes a foreign holiday may not spend so much on electricity during the year, and does not have the new refrigerator that his wife is very keen on, as does the citizen who stays at home.
  The House can say that the electricity boards have used their capital very effectively and can with confidence look to them to do the same in the future. That is surely the answer to the Federation of British Industries, which turned out a pamphlet recently about nationalisation. As we might have suspected, the Federation is against it, but cannot find anything really unpleasant to say about electricity so it decides that the boards must have used too much capital because they have had more capital than the railways. That does not seem to me to be an argument.

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  The hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper)—i am sorry I was out when he was speaking—and the hon. Member for Kidderminster, who is not now in his place, talked about unfair hire-purchase schemes by electricity boards. The allegation has been made also that the showrooms and service centres of the boards are unfair to the private traders and are too elaborate. I have tried to meet this argument before. I do not know whether I succeeded. When there is talk about diversion of capital we should keep things in perspective, if we can.
  I have the actual figures here. Over the ten years of nationalisation the expenditure on showrooms, service centres and hire-purchase working capital against the total capital requirements of electricity was just 1·1 per cent. which does not seem an excessive drain on capital resources. Even if we include capital expenditure on administrative offices and general administration, it comes out at only 1·3; per cent.
  In answer to the attack on the electricity boards for carrying on these utilisation activities, I would say that it is an old-established practice of the industry. It existed long before nationalisation. Consumers understand it and have come to expect it. There is also an agreement with the Electrical Contractors' Association which should make for fair trading. We have now as well the special change which the Paymaster-General announced today.
  In addition to all that, it seems that further answers are these. Surely it is a fallacy to argue that showrooms, service centres, retail sales by electricity boards are all necessarily to the detriment of the private trader. The private electrical contracting business has continued to expand in parallel with the general development of nationalisation. They fertilise each other, one helps the other and more progressive contractors, who can stand up to competition, thoroughly recognise this.
  I liked the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for All Saints that these electrical appliances which are sold and let out on hire-purchase through showrooms by the electricity boards are products of British private manufacturers. Do they want the boards to give up doing it? Another argument in favour is that it is now the business of the industry
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  greatly to improve the load factor. If it is to improve the load factor it must be in a position to push the sale and hire-purchase of particular appliances. Only in that way can we get the diversity of load which will assist in improving the load factor. In short, utilisation is just as much the business of the power supply industry as is generation of current itself.
  I should think that, in any case, in the end the test is the welfare and good of the great majority of consumers. Surely that is the test and what the industry exists for, to give service to the public. If we put it to any representative gathering of consumers that utilisation should be taken from the electricity boards and left entirely to private contractors, that assembly of consumers would be very much against such a change.
  In the time available to me I want to touch on one or two other points raised in the debate. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George) and the hon. Member for Kidderminster have given their views on the subject of load factor. As ever, the hon. Member for Pollok was very fair on this matter. The hon. Member for Kidderminster often has the facts, but tends to allow his prejudice to get the better of him, so he was not quite so fair.
  On load factor, I would agree that here, perhaps, the area distribution boards, whose responsibility it is, are a little vulnerable. Criticism can be made of them, but surely it is a limited criticism. They could do more perhaps than they have been doing to offer attractive tariffs to improve the load factor, but, when all is said and done, load factor is fundamentally more under the control of the user than of the supplier. That is bound to be the case in the nature of things.
  For example, if British industry as a whole improved its load factor, then, automatically, the load factor of the electrical power industry would be improved. I think that in this matter of the improvement of the load factor of the British supply system, Governments cannot entirely escape their share of responsibility because at times they have discouraged, by excessive Purchase Tax, the use of electrical domestic appliances which help to give the necessary diversity.
  When we make the comparison—here I agree with the Paymaster-General—

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  between the load factor in this country and that in the United States, we must be quite certain, in the first place, that we are working on a similar set of assumptions. On this issue I think that there is a great case for the electricity boards which now have new opportunities because Purchase Tax has been reduced on quite a number of electrical appliances, to co-operate with the manufacturers of appliances and with every section of the electricity industry, supply and manufacturing, in carrying out over the next few years a kind of combined operation to bring about a vastly improved British load factor. I am sure that in that way great progress could be made.
  I want to refer briefly to the changes that have come about in the industry, which have not been touched upon to any extent in the debate, because of the coming into force of the 1957 Act. For just over a year the industry has been living under a new dispensation. By the provisions of the 1957 Act, in England and Wales the area distribution boards have much greater freedom and the wholesale generating side is now able to concentrate on its own job.
  The old Central Electricity Authority has gone and we now have in the industry the advisory Electricity Council, which is made up, in the main, of the leaders of the component parts of the industry with an independent chairman. I think that it is within the recollection of the House that we on this side did not quarrel with the broad intention of the 1957 Act. We thought that the case for greater decentralisation in the industry, in the light of experience, had been made out. We felt, however, with the Herbert Committee that in place of the C.E.A. there should have been to deal particularly with matters of national concern a smaller independent executive, but the Government rejected that solution. They made their own picking and choosing in the matter of the Herbert Committee recommendations and they brought in the Electricity Council. I feel that our point of view and that of the Herbert Committee were right and experience will show that to have been the case.
  However, the change means, in effect, that in many matters of national electricity policy, the generating boards must make their own decisions and these decisions can be of tremendous national importance.
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  The issue with which they are concerned at the moment is the proper balance to be struck between the various primary sources of energy from which electricity is derived. They are coal and oil and in a little while there will be nuclear fission as well. Until fairly recently the general strategy was based on the assumption that the coal supplies of the country would be insufficient for quite a number of years and that oil and nuclear fission would have to be brought in to fill the gap.
  We all know how that assumption has been changed in the last two or three years, in the short-term at any rate, by the mounting surplus of small coal. This fact has been the subject of several eloquent speeches by my hon. Friends today, particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Blyton). He said that there is something fantastically illogical about a country importing oil to use in its power stations when it has a surplus of small coal which to a great extent can be burned only in those same power stations, and in principle I agree with him. The effect of this policy on the morale and outlook of the mining industry is bad.
  I have said that this is probably a short-term problem and that in the long-term the nuclear power programme is just as necessary as ever it was, but I should like to make a comment which possibly the Secretary of State for Scotland will take up in his reply to the debate: need we be in quite such a hurry now with the nuclear power programme, and have we not a breathing space? There is, perhaps, a case for going a little more slowly, because then we can work harder to bring down the high capital cost of nuclear power stations. In addition, there are new developments taking place fast in reactor design, and we want to avoid the mistake of putting all our nuclear eggs in the one basket, if I may put it that way, although it does not sound very well.
  Mr. Robens: All in the one reactor.
  Mr. Palmer: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. It would be a great pity if we went ahead too fast with the nuclear power stations, at a time when it is not quite so necessary to go ahead so quickly, and then found ourselves in ten or fifteen years' time with a lot of nuclear power stations which were out of date because of technical developments.

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  My second point concerns the burning of oil. If we could do it without breaking the contracts with the oil companies, surely we should do away altogether now with oil burning in our power stations. It was a temporary expedient and it is no longer necessary. We are not advocating the breaking of contracts. My right hon. Friend was very clear on that. But the electricity industry did not want to convert to oil; it was forced on the industry largely under Ministerial pressure and influence. I am not quarrelling about that; perhaps at the time it was the only thing to do. But if it were Ministerial influence which introduced the change in the first place, it is not fair now to turn to the electricity boards and say, "We leave it to you to make the decision to change back". That is most unfair, because they have already invested a great deal of capital in the change and it is not right to tell them that they could go back but on their own decision.
  If this policy were introduced under Ministerial direction, is it beyond Ministerial ingenuity today to find a way out of that policy? I should not have thought that it was. I am not saying that we can go all the way back, but surely there is a case—and here I agree entirely with my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring—for seeing whether we cannot make at least further marginal savings in the use of oil. I am sure that the public think that the use of oil in power stations at a time when there is a surplus of coal is madness. They do not know all the facts which we know.
  It is not possible to have a violently controversial debate on a matter in which the common sense of the decision contained in the Bill is obvious to all. Of course, the hon. Member for Kidderminster, as ever, had done his best to bring some controversy into the debate, but, broadly speaking, it has been a quiet affair. We have had a useful and interesting debate which I think has been much to the advantage of the House and of the electricity supply industry in the service of the nation.
  But when we talk of the industry we surely mean more than just power stations, cables, plant and machines, which are cold, impersonal things. We
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  surely mean, also, the conscientious and able men and women—I do not think that they have been greatly referred to today—of all occupations who work to make this great industry successful. It certainly is successful, to their credit, and also—and I believe that we are entitled to say this on this side of the House—to the credit of the principle of public enterprise, which, although often assailed, has still a great part, and will always have a great part, to play in the life of our country. For these reasons we support the Bill.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): I confess, Mr. Speaker, that this is rather a strange experience for me, because, as I think you may have noticed, I am unaccustomed to winding up debates in which there seems to be a substantial measure of agreement with the Bill I am supporting. However, that makes this none the less a very interesting experience. I do not know whether some of the more controversial elements that creep into our Scottish debates may come back into the Chamber shortly. They are not here now. I shall wait with some interest to see.
  The hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. Palmer), who wound up for the Opposition with an interesting speech, finished by putting in one tiny little bit of controversy. I welcome it, because I would say this. He used the words "public enterprise". It seems to me, having listened to this debate throughout, that in the speeches from both sides of the House the main matters of interest have been connected with the fact that no one has yet devised the proper method of keeping control of nationalised industry, and I cannot help repeating what my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) said earlier, that this was one of the dangers we always pointed to in nationalisation. I have vivid recollections of doing it myself. I accept that in public utilities there was room for reorganisation, but I was never convinced that State ownership was necessarily the right way, and one of the reasons has been confirmed again today, because of this problem with which we are all struggling.
  We ourselves on this side of the House are very conscious of the need to help these industries to be as efficient as they

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  can, and to find the proper solution of the problem of accountability to the consumer and to the House of Commons. I think the whole tenor of a great many of the speeches made today has been that we have not solved that one yet. We have not heard any really constructive proposals from the other side of the House as to how to get farther on that path. From my hon. and right hon. Friends on this side there have been very interesting proposals put forward, which I shall deal with as I come to them.
  Mr. Robens: We do not accept that assumption.
  Mr. Maclay: Does the right hon. Gentleman say he does not accept the assumption? He does not agree with me that we have not found the right method of control? A good many of his hon. Friends have raised this same point, as have my hon. Friends behind me. I am pointing this out because, in all seriousness, I think that this is something we need to think about. I would not say that in our efforts we have reached finality. It will take a long time. Whatever may have been the problems presented by this type of ownership, that was my objection to it.
  I shall try to deal with some of the questions asked and later to touch on some of the more specific Scottish ones. I think it will be better to deal with them question by question.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) and, I think, the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart), asked that one or two questions should be particularly dealt with when I wound up the debate, but it is a point which the right hon. Gentleman made that I want to deal with now, and that was what he described, I think, as the "nuclear power club"—the consortium—who approved it, how it came into existence, whether it was a closed corporation or whether there was a possibility of increase?
  Broadly speaking, the position is this. The electricity authorities, with the agreement and blessing of the Atomic Energy Authority and the Government, believe that the consortium team which can do the whole job is the best means of making rapid progress with our nuclear programme in present circumstances. A combination of the Atomic Energy Authority and the electricity authorities
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  came to that view, with which the Government entirely agreed.
  A new firm must therefore become a member of a team before it can take part in this work, and that obviously must be to a great extent a matter of the firm's standing with its potential fellow-members of the consortium. That is how a consortium gets built up, by obvious methods. It is equally clear that no firm could become what I might call the nuclear reactor member of a consortium unless it had established its nuclear status, and that, in turn, almost certainly implies that some of its staff has undergone training by the A.E.A. This is a limiting factor, because the A.E.A.'s capacity to train nuclear technicians is limited by the need to use its own very limited manpower to press on with the new research and development that is needed to keep our nuclear industry competitive in this country. Therefore, the "nuclear club" is not a closed shop, but is not for the moment an easy one to get into.
  Mr. Robens: In those circumstances, how is it that a British firm can secure a contract to build a nuclear power station in another part of the world but is not permitted even to tender for a new nuclear station in Britain? The firm must have experience, otherwise it could not build a nuclear power station elsewhere.
  Mr. Maclay: I think that one should have more time to investigate the case to which the right hon. Gentleman refers, but the quick answer must obviously be that he is referring to an individual firm which has not for some reason or other gone into one of the consortia. That must be the explanation. There are four consortia at the moment, and I think that a fifth will emerge; but it cannot be a rapid process, for the reasons that I have given.
  The right hon. Member for Blyth also placed some emphasis on the question of research by the Electricity Council. All I would say is that Sir Christopher Hinton is there and that with his whole record and background I do not think that anyone can doubt that research must be a matter which will be very constantly in the mind of the Council. The right hon. Gentleman asked specifically whether research was going on into the storage of electricity. I cannot

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  answer that tonight, and I do not think that he expected me to, but we have in Scotland one of the best forms of storage possible. If we could give to the South an odd mountain or two from those concentrated in Scotland, the South might enjoy the same benefit in due course. Cumberland has some mountains, but I do not think that they are high enough for this purpose. There are possibilities in pumped storage, but they depend upon geography.
  Hon. Members have raised questions about coal and oil. It was made clear in an interjection, perhaps by my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General, or from something which the right hon. Member for Blyth himself said, that our oil-use figures would reach a peak in 1960 and thereafter begin to decline. The right hon. Member for Blyth asked about post-1966 thinking and what was going to happen then. I confirm that it is our intention to concentrate on coal and nuclear energy in our thinking about power generation in that period.
  A number of hon. Members used the phrase "fuel and power policy". I was reminded of the mystic word "planning". It appears that when one has a problem one says the word "plan" and the problem is solved, but, of course, the truth is that it is not solved, because things change. That is the trouble. There was in this reference to fuel and power policy a little of that mystique of "let us have a policy and everything will be lovely". We are, of course, working to a policy the whole time, but we are working to a policy which must be reasonably flexible. The very fact that hon. and right hon. Members have this Bill and the supporting documents before them shows clearly that a great deal of forward-thinking and, if hon. Members like, "planning" are being done.
  I am not frightened of the word "plan," but I do object to the word "plan" being elevated into a sacred cow—I do not know if one can do that—so that it has become a shibboleth which is supposed to solve all problems. The danger about this is that if one says things often enough sometimes people believe them. It is most misleading to argue that everything will be lovely if there is this policy. Of course, there has been a policy all through, but circumstances do change, and I have just explained that
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  in these two documents hon. Members opposite will see the broad outlines of the results of policy thinking. Of course, when it comes to a question whether it was right or wrong to move over to oil at a certain stage, one has to remember that things do change, and that there was all the evidence running for a long time that we needed every possible source of producing power, if we were to be able to compete as things were developing. It is only right that there should be change, and therefore planning must be flexible to meet changed conditions.
  May I now turn to the very interesting discussion by speakers on both sides of the House on the subject of Parliamentary control? I think the first point one would want to deal with is whether this is the right length of period for the Bill to apply. I would say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West and to my hon. Friends who raised this point—
  Mr. Palmer: Is the right hon. Gentleman now leaving the subject of oil and power stations? Is he not prepared to answer the point which I put to him that the Minister should intervene to see if something further may be done?
  Mr. Maclay: I have no doubt that what the hon. Gentleman has said has been very carefully noted, and I would not like to go further at this stage. It is not always possible to have plans and policies which one can produce every minute of the day, but they are there and are being worked to, though they are often adapted to circumstances as they develop.
  On the question of whether or not this is the right period, I realise that there is great substance in some of the things that my right hon. Friend said, but it does seem reasonable to look at the financial requirements, broadly, for the period in which one can see ahead the development of the programmes. I am often inclined to ask whether, if it is not to be seven years, should it be five, three or even one year?
  I do not think it could be argued that there should be an annual Bill of this kind, because that would really put the whole thing into too restrictive a strait jacket. We must be able to think ahead, and I would repeat one phrase of my right hon. Friend in which he said that

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  this is authorised capital and not issued capital, and at all stages the various controls begin to emerge on the actual decision by the Boards to use their authorised capital in the form of issued capital. My right hon. Friend went over four of the controls, and I should like to repeat what he said about them, and to make some comments.
  First, he mentioned the Finance Act. I should explain, because my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West raised the point, that as things stand the total of Exchequer advances to nationalised industries is governed by Section 36 of the 1958 Finance Act. This system operates as Parliamentary control so long as the system of Exchequer advances, instead of the use of the market, continues. Should circumstances ever arise which produce a change in the method of financing, then what I have said would no longer apply, and there might have to be further examination.
  I should like also to mention another Scottish point. Every hydro-electric scheme brought forward is ultimately subject to a negative Resolution in this House, and is debatable on such occasions, and, in my experience, is debated.
  Secondly, there is the annual White Paper on capital expenditure which is laid before Parliament and covers prospective expenditure in the coming financial year. That is a debatable paper. This involves the vexed and difficult question of whether there is enough Parliamentary time for debating such reports. Coming back to the point with which I began, one of the things which worries one is that of getting the most effective Parliamentary control, as well as consumer control, of these industries.
  Then there is the Select Committee on the Nationalised Industries, which is a relatively new development. I noted with considerable interest the proposal made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West and by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) that there might well be a case for what I think he called an auditor comptroller general. That may be a development which would become well worth consideration by the committee in its experience of how this functions because consideration must be given to how we can
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  improve the system of Parliamentary control.
  Mr. Nabarro: Would my right hon. Friend allow me to interrupt? I may have got this the wrong way round. I may have said "auditor comptroller general" instead of "comptroller auditor general". It must be a statutory process. As my right hon. Friend has long Parliamentary experience, and this may even be an administrative matter, would he tell the House how he can concede the point made with such cogency and force by my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), himself an ex-Economic Secretary to the Treasury, by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), an ex-Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and by myself in a modest capacity? How can it be done?
  Mr. Maclay: My hon. Friend must not use every chance to tell the House the good company he is in tonight. He has done it once already and I think this intervention was designed to emphasise the company he is keeping. I cannot explain that. I am merely saying that this is one of those proposals which, coming from the most illustrious Members—and I add the hon. Member to them—obviously merits consideration. It is clear that the work of the Select Committee will evolve with time, as do all our institutions here. I agree with them that there is every need to ensure that we go on working to get the most effective methods of control.
  Now one word about hire-purchase. My right hon. Friend made very clear the position as it stands. Again I recognise that there is room for differences of view, but, on the whole, there is substantial agreement that, in a phrase which has been used once or twice this evening, the terms which can be obtained by the customer from the nationalised boards should be in line with those that can be obtained from private retailers. There should not be advantage one way or the other. I do not think I should go further into the arguments about hire-purchase this evening.
  Mr. Robens: I hope this will not mean, however, that private enterprise will be able to set the pace so that the consumer's rights are not safeguarded?
  Mr. Maclay: Equally, as my right hon. Friend said, I do not think there should be pace-making on either side. Neither should take advantage of the other. Nor should anyone use an unfair advantage to set the pace.
  Time goes quickly in dealing with so many detailed questions, but I will answer one or two points raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Sir W. Anstruther-Gray). One question he asked was about the use of slurry in Fife. At the moment, I cannot give him much information beyond what he has read already. This is still in an early stage of consideration, but doubtless some proposal will be put to me in due course. His second point was one to which I listened with some interest, having suffered from the same roads as he did. I have only read a certain amount in the newspapers about road heating and I am awaiting further reports to know what there is in it. I have noted carefully what he said.
  My hon. Friend also dealt with the question of the small farms and rural electrification. This is a problem which is constantly in my mind, with my responsibilities in Scotland. It is the responsibility of the boards to get on with this work. There have had to be changes in the sanctioned capital investment as the years have gone on and different situations have arisen. It would be no good doing all the things we want to do in regard to electricity, roads, schools, housing and everything else if in the process we brought the nation down economically. It is a question to some extent of relative priorities. The record of rural electrification is not too bad, although there is much still to be done.
  Mr. Peart: There are cases where promises were given but things have not been done because of changing policy. I ask that in my area there should be a reconsideration of the decisions which were made earlier. Will the right hon. Gentleman give instructions that that shall be done?
  Mr. Maclay: One cannot instruct in that particular matter, but I am certain that the hon. Member has made his point, and undoubtedly it will be duly noted. He has been almost as eloquent in respect of his area, which has caused him concern, as the hon. Member for the Western
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  Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) and other Scottish hon. Members have been about their remote areas. This is a problem about which I can certainly speak with first hand knowledge of the Scottish position. Both Scottish boards are doing everything they can and the record is not too bad.
  I also want to refer to the load factor. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George) touched on the Scottish record. It is worth putting on the record the Scottish figures, for they are not generally known. The South of Scotland Board has been making steady, useful progress with the load factor. In 1955, it was 43·7; per cent.in 1956 45·5 per cent. and in 1957 47·3 per cent. As my hon. Friend said, it may be largely due to the encouragement the Board has given to off-peak loads. There is obviously room for continuing work.
  The North of Scotland Board has a rather different problem. Its load factor is 38 per cent. There is very much less industry in the North of Scotland and the load factor must be expected to be low. In addition, much of the North of Scotland Board's plant has been specially designed to operate at a low load factor, and one cannot make any direct comparison between that board and other boards. I think I heard my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster say that it was an expensive luxury.
  Mr. Nabarro: No. I was referring to the low load factor at Loch Sloy, which is only 10 per cent. That is why it is so expensive and uneconomic.
  Mr. Maclay: I take issue very strongly on that. The quick answer is that we have our special Scottish position. I should have thought there was a very good and strong case for the marrying of the low load factor hydro-electric scheme with the high load factor nuclear and coal schemes. There we should get the maximum possible advantage out of both worlds. I can give the figures to my hon. Friend after the debate; it would take too long to give them now. I should be interested in his comments about the actual cost per unit leaving the power stations of the hydro-electric schemes. The whole point about the hydro-electric scheme is the time taken to write off the cost of the dam. The initial capital cost is high, but they are useful things for an electricity board to have about once the

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  years begin to run on and one is getting the cheapest possible production of power that one can have. This is an old argument with the hon. Member for Kidderminster which will go on to everybody's advantage for some time.
  I want to give some details of the projects for Scotland which are covered by the Bill. The proposals for South Scotland do not envisage any new major generating stations starting in the period under review, that is to say, between now and the end of 1964. That is simply because the Board is already engaged on two major undertakings, the coal-fired station at Kincardine and the nuclear station at Hunterston.
  The position for the North of Scotland is rather different. The Board has to complete a number of schemes which it now has in hand, such as the Shin, Breadalbane, Orrin and Strathfarrar schemes, which have been started or approved. The Board has also to envisage expenditure on schemes which it is still preparing and which might start between now and 1964, if approved. Of those the most important is the Awe scheme costing about £24 million and which includes an important pump storage section. The plan for this has been published and I am at present considering it. The forecast also includes work on the Nevis and Monadhliath schemes costing about £7 million. The Board has those under preparation, and they have not yet been published. Lastly, the money provides for the possibility, and I emphasise the word "possibility", of spending about £20 million on a possible nuclear station which might be started before 1964, if the need for such a station were proved.
  Before concluding, I want to deal with the matter of publicity for compensation which was raised by the hon. Member for the Western Isles. Apparently the Labour Party wants nationalised boards to get on with their day-to-day business, and it would be folly to insist on maximum publicity for everything they do. If one is negotiating on terms of compensation, it is clear that if everything one does is done in public, one prejudices the
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  next negotiation with someone else. On business grounds, it would be stark folly to do as the hon. Member suggests and I assume that he and others want the Boards to continue to work as efficient businesses, whether State controlled or not.
  I am sure that the Bill commends itself to the House, and I support it with confidence.
  Question put and agreed to.
  The Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Gibson-Watt.]
  Committee Tomorrow.

  ELECTRICITY (BORROWING POWERS) [MONEY]
  [Queen's Recommendation signified.]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to increase the statutory limits imposed on the amounts outstanding in respect of borrowings by the Electricity Council and Electricity Boards, it is expedient to authorise such increases in the sums which by or under any enactment are to be or may be charged on or issued out of the Consolidated Fund, raised by borrowing, or paid into the Exchequer, as may result from increasing—

  (a)to two thousand three hundred million pounds the limit imposed by subsection (5) of section fifteen of the Electricity Act, 1957, in the case of the Electricity Council, the Central Electricity Generating Board and Area Electricity Boards;

  (b)to three hundred million pounds the limit imposed by subsection (7) of section forty-seven of the Electricity Act, 1947, in the case of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board; and

  (c)to one hundred and thirty-five million pounds the limit imposed by the said subsection (7) (as applied by the Electricity Reorganisation (Scotland) Act, 1954) in the case of the South of Scotland Electricity Board.—[Mr. Maclay.]

  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.

  POLICE, ORPINGTON AREA
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Gibson-Watt.]
  9.59 p.m.
  Mr. Donald Sumner: I am glad to have this opportunity of raising the matter of the police arrangements for the Orpington district. I make it clear at the outset that this is not a criticism of the police, or of any individuals who carry out their police duties in or for Orpington. Rather I seek to question whether the best possible arrangements are made for the district and to suggest how in my humble opinion they might be improved.
  The whole district comes within the Metropolitan Police area. The district consists of highly residential areas and of villages which still, I am glad to say, have village life which we want to retain.
  It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Gibson-Watt.]
  Mr. Sumner: The villages are bounded on the south by the Kent Police area so that they come on the extreme fringe of the Metropolitan Police area. The whole district is within the Police Division of Bromley, which is a large geographical area of which the Orpington district forms only a part. There are only two police stations for the whole of the Orpington district. Very roughly and rather inaccurately, they come at the northern corners, at any rate, with the effect that most of the district falls to the south and to some extent lies between them, so that in no sense are they centrally placed.
  The district has grown enormously. In 1939, the population was about 46,300. By 1950, it had gone up to 59,500; in 1953, 63,000; and in 1958, 73,600. Some 7,000 new houses have been built since the war. Nevertheless, there is no central police station in Orpington. The average new resident might be expected to ask for the Orpington police station, but he would find that there was not one. I remember being puzzled by that when I
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  first went to live in the district after the war.
  So far as I know, there is no senior police officer in Orpington responsible for the district. If one went to either police station, one could expect to find only a sergeant and no more senior officer there. I believe that there is no senior officer at Bromley who is made responsible solely for Orpington. Again without criticism of any individual, it is inevitable that the general feeling is that there is no local police force or rather there is a lack of feeling that there is any local police force and, within the police force, there is possibly a feeling that there is no one especially responsible for Orpington.
  The whole district is policed from those two police stations, but they are also responsible for other areas of a considerable size which fall outside the Orpington district. We have two police stations, but not their undivided attention. Presumably because of the difficulty of policing the whole area from those two stations, or at any rate partly for that reason, most of the work is done by motor cycle patrols. I believe that there is now only one foot patrol.
  When, a year ago, I questioned by letter the arrangements for the Petts Wood district, which is a large and important residential area, I was told that the Commissioner had recently increased the number of constables at the police stations by one-third. I cannot say what the effect on crime has been in Petts Wood, but it is clear from the figures given by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary last month that the position in the district has not changed for the better, and that there is room for improvement.
  Those figures appeared in the OFFICIAL REPORT for 18th December, 1958, and they show that in 1956, in respect of the crimes of burglary, housebreaking, shopbreaking and attempted breaking there were 153 cases and 35 arrests; in 1957 there were 200 of those crimes and 33 arrests, and between January and October, 1958 there were 190 crimes and 22 arrests. Other figures for crimes cleared up were also given. They no doubt refer to cases in which arrests led to confessions of other crimes.
  In order not to complicate the issue, however, I want to concentrate upon crimes and arrests. The figures show a considerable increase in crime without a

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  corresponding increase in the number of arrests. What is perhaps rather more remarkable is the number of attempted breakings. In 1956, there were 49; in 1957, there were 18 and for that part of 1958 for which figures are given, 12. It is inconsistent that the number of cases of breaking should rise while the cases of attempted breakings should fall. I think it indicates not so much the increased success of those who attempt to break in as that the attempts are not now known to the police to the degree that they were in 1956.
  The figures in respect of housebreaking have risen from 41 in 1956 to 92 in 1957, and for that part of 1958 for which figures are available they stand at 77. The figures in respect of shopbreaking have risen from 54 in 1956 to 74 in 1957, and they stand at 81 for the part of 1958 for which information is available. I leave these figures to speak for themselves.
  Two-and-a-half years ago it was rumoured that there would be a new subdivision at Bromley, centred upon St. Mary Cray, at which is situated one of the two police stations that I have mentioned, and which is just within the district. According to a report which appeared in the Orpington and Kentish Times on 5th August, 1955, a Scotland Yard spokesman, when interviewed about the matter, said that inquiries were a little premature. That was two-and-a-half years ago. In my opinion a new sub-division is needed, preferably centred upon a new station in Orpington itself, so as to be in a central position for what is a greatly expanded and expanding district. It should concern itself only with the district of Orpington.
  I am concerned that police arrangements should keep pace, as far as possible within the manpower position, with the great changes in the district; that some senior officer should feel responsible for Orpington alone, and that a real sense of the existence of a local police force should be created.
  So much for the general position. I now want to say a word about the villages. There was much opposition to the villages being taken over by the Metropolitan Police from the Kent County Police about ten years ago. My predecessor, the late Sir Waldron Smithers, was much opposed to it, as those who knew and remember him would imagine. Anything which detracted from village life
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  always met his opposition. The opposition, however, was not successful, and the villages were taken over. Unfortunately, that opposition has now been justified. We have lost our village policemen. They have gone completely, and in their place we now have 2motor cycle patrols. That is a very great mistake.
  I am often told by responsible people and organisations, particularly in the three villages of Chelsfield, Knockholt and Cudham, what a mistake this is. One would think it was almost unnecessary to stress the importance of the village policeman and his part as a respected member of the local community and, in particular, his great value in the prevention of crime. I stress the word "prevention". The motor cycle patrols cannot possibly compare in value. They do not have the knowledge of individuals or of the locality. They come from a far distance and their approach is heralded by the noise of a motor cycle. Their routes are known, and they cannot both ride motor cycles and observe, as can a man who is on his feet. To sum up, they are both too distant and too impersonal.
  In the village of Knockholt we still have two policemen, but they must go some six miles to Farnborough each day to perform their duties of motor cycle patrol. Only rarely do they come on circuit to their village, which of course they know. In one other village the police house has actually been sold, I believe.
  It is perhaps of interest to record that villages in Kent which bound us and which are indistinguishable in character as one village almost runs into the other, still have their village policemen. There is a general feeling that hooliganism and crime have multiplied considerably since the village policemen were taken away.
  The suggestion I would make is that what we need for the greatly increased district is a subdivision responsible for that district alone, and within that subdivision the restoration of the village policeman.
  I do not expect to be told by my hon. and learned Friend tonight that all that will be done, but I ask that he would kindly take note of what I have said and assure me that it will at least be considered, and that my hon. and learned Friend will let me know the result of this consideration.
  10.13 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Renton): I readily give my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr. Sumner) the assurance for which he has asked. I am sure that the Commissioner of Police will be grateful to my hon. Friend for having expressed his opinions about these matters and will be glad to consider them.
  Perhaps, as a background to the complaints made by my hon. Friend, I might say that there are more than 2,000 fewer policemen in the Metropolitan Police District now than there were in 1938. A good many more civilians are employed than was the case before the war. Some of them release police officers for patrol duties and enable police officers to be transferred from purely administrative work to more active police duties. We have to remember that police work is more complex these days and that many more officers have to be diverted from beat and patrol work to special jobs and to deal with particular areas of crime.
  Then there is the burden placed on the police generally by the fact that crime as a whole has increased, and, as my hon. Friend pointed out, the population has increased, especially in my hon. Friend's own constituency. There is also an increase in traffic duties. Moreover, less cover can now be obtained from a given number of policemen than could be got twenty years ago. That is purely because of increased leave.
  Although the Metropolitan Police are still seriously short of men, substantial progress in recruitment has been made in recent years, and is still going on. In fact, the number of Metropolitan Police is higher now than at any time since the war, although the force is 3,000 below establishment. I suppose, from the point of view of my hon. Friend, that the important thing to consider is whether his constituency has its fair share of those policemen which the Commissioner can make available for that part of the country.
  I hope to be able to assure my hon. Friend that it has. The disposition of the police as between various parts of the Metropolitan Police District is an operational matter for the Commissioner. It is for him to decide how to make the best
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  use of men at his disposal. The Home Secretary would not think it proper to intervene and he has every confidence in the Commissioner's ability to deploy his men to the best advantage.
  My hon. Friend has asked that Orpington should virtually have its own police station and be the centre of a sub-division and that there should be a senior officer specifically for Orpington. Unfortunately, the Commissioner of Police is not always able to oblige in that way. He has to make the best use of the forces in the Metropolitan Police District, dividing them up as operational necessity and the number of men available will allow.
  As my hon. Friend indicated, the Borough of Orpington is in the Bromley sub-division of P Division of the Metropolitan Police District. It is policed as he said from stations at Farnborough and St. Mary's Cray. Those stations lie approximately and respectively to the west and to the east of Orpington itself. Although it is true that they lie at the two northern corners of the area my hon. Friend has in mind, I think it will be found, on looking at the map, and especially at the density of housing in the area, that those two stations are fairly well sited to cope with the work.
  The whole of the Farnborough station area is in my hon. Friend's constituency of Orpington, but only part of the St. Mary's Cray station is in that area and, therefore, covers part of another constituency as well. The Commissioner candidly does not think that there is anything special or unusual about the problem of policing Orpington. Although as my hon. Friend has pointed out the level of crime there is higher than it used to be, that, unfortunately, is true of the whole Metropolitan Police District and, indeed, of the country as a whole. The increase of crime in Orpington appears to be no higher than in other comparable areas, although I should like to consider the figures with rather greater opportunity than I have by merely taking a note of those which my hon. Friend gave the House this evening, in order to make quite sure that what I have just said is, in fact, accurate.
  I am advised that, broadly speaking, the increase in crime in Orpington is no higher than elsewhere. There is no special problem of hooliganism there, I am advised. The traffic problem in

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  Orpington is a factor which has to be considered. It is a fairly large traffic problem, especially at weekends in the summer and on the main road which goes to the coast, but most other areas in the Metropolitan Police district also have considerable traffic problems.
  Some changes in the methods of policing these two police station areas have been made in recent years. Especially at St. Mary's Cray strength has gradually been brought up, an additional wireless car has been stationed in the neighbourhood so that there is now a 24 hour cover by two wireless cars and the section patrol system has been introduced. Under that system a number of police constables operate in the area as a team doing duty in different places at different times under the direct leadership of the sergeant who is in a motor car. He is in touch by wireless with police headquarters. Being mobile and in a car he can get in touch with other members of the team. That is considered a better use of manpower and a more effective way of preventing crime than the old fixed beat system.
  My hon. Friend mentioned the question of the village policeman in those parts of his constituency which are still rural. He complained that villages have lost their village policemen and that they have been replaced by police on motor cycles covering several villages at a time, which, he says, is not so good. I feel bound to point out to him that this is a tendency which is now prevailing over a great part of rural England and that it is a system which has been introduced by some chief constables as a result of very careful thought.
  Although I know that in my own constituency the village policeman has always played an important part in village life when he has been there, it may well be that from the point of view of his being used effectively as a policeman it is better to make him mobile and the best use of the constabulary in rural areas is very often to put its policemen on motor cycles and to allow them to cover several villages.
  It is not a question of the man on the motor cycle being better than the man
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  stationed in a village and patrolling on foot or on a bicycle. The point is that unless many police are given motor cycles and made to control large areas, some places would not see a policeman at all. Although that is true, as I say, of village police activities, in suburban areas it is even more true, so I am advised, in that mechanisation of police officers in suburban areas gives the public better protection and, indeed, more confidence. I do not think that my hon. Friend need be very much worried about the policeman's approach being heralded by the noise of his motor cycle. Good motor cycles which the police use need not be operated noisily and, generally, are not so operated.
  Mr. Sumner: I live on the route he passes. It may be an advantage to be able to hear him approaching, but I assure my hon. Friend that I do hear him approaching.
  Mr. Renton: It may be that my hon. Friend is vigilant and his ears so attuned in the matter that he would be on the look out for them. My experience has been that the motor cycles which the police use are for the most part not especially noisy and can be run fairly quietly.
  To revert to the question of whether Orpington is getting its fair share of the manpower available, the Commissioner is satisfied that the standard and adequacy of the policing of Orpington and the surrounding area bears satisfactory comparison with the standard and adequacy of policing in other parts of the Metropolitan District. The Commissioner, I am sure, can be trusted to deploy to the best advantage the men and machines at his disposal and he will always decide how to deploy them in the light of the evidence which comes to his notice.
  As I said in my opening remarks, I am sure that he is glad of the evidence which my hon. Friend has put before him and that he will study carefully what he has said in the debate.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes past Ten o'clock.

COLONIAL TERRITORIES
  Women (Seminars)
  Women (Seminars)
ST. HELENA
  Food Subsidies
  Food Subsidies
  Food Production
  Food Production
  Poor Persons (Outdoor Relief)
  Poor Persons (Outdoor Relief)
MALTA
  Governor's Council
  Governor's Council
NIGERIA AND SIERRA LEONE
  Retired Officers (Pensions)
  Retired Officers (Pensions)
SINGAPORE
  Citizenship Ordinance, 1957
  Citizenship Ordinance, 1957
  Trade Union and Political Leaders (Detention)
  Trade Union and Political Leaders (Detention)
  Internal Security Council
  Internal Security Council
KENYA
  Land Consolidation
  Land Consolidation
  Prisoners and Detained Persons
  Prisoners and Detained Persons
  Prisons (Food Expenditure)
  Prisons (Food Expenditure)
  Lokitaung Prison
  Lokitaung Prison
  Kamiti New Prison
  Kamiti New Prison
SOMALILAND
  Mica Deposits
  Mica Deposits
NORTHERN RHODESIA
  Tobacco Grading and Packing (Employment of Children)
  Tobacco Grading and Packing (Employment of Children)
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER
  Serjeant at Arms' Residence
  Serjeant at Arms' Residence
  UNEMPLOYMENT
  UNEMPLOYMENT
SCOTLAND
  Fourth Year Certificate (Working Party's Report)
  Fourth Year Certificate (Working Party's Report)
  Teachers' Training Colleges
  Teachers' Training Colleges
  Fishery Cruiser "Freya" (Loss)
  Fishery Cruiser "Freya" (Loss)
  Road Surfaces
  Road Surfaces
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Aberdeenshire (Extension of Industries)
  Aberdeenshire (Extension of Industries)
  O.E.E.C. (3 per cent. Quota)
  O.E.E.C. (3 per cent. Quota)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Pool Betting Duty
  Pool Betting Duty
  Sterling (Convertibility)
  Sterling (Convertibility)
  Civil Servants (Accidents at Work)
  Civil Servants (Accidents at Work)
  Estate Duty (Owner-occupied Houses)
  Estate Duty (Owner-occupied Houses)
  Income Tax (Meal Vouchers)
  Income Tax (Meal Vouchers)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Smokeless Zones
  Smokeless Zones
  >Sewerage Schemes, Norfolk
  >Sewerage Schemes, Norfolk
HOUSING
  Local Authority Building, Norfolk
  Local Authority Building, Norfolk
  Houses Rented and for Sale, Basildon
  Houses Rented and for Sale, Basildon
MINISTRY OF EDUCATION
  Local Government Library Service
  Local Government Library Service
  Museums and Historic Houses (Information)
  Museums and Historic Houses (Information)
COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  Gan Island
  Gan Island
  CYPRUS (DISCUSSIONS)
  CYPRUS (DISCUSSIONS)
  ARMS (SALE TO FOREIGN COUNTRIES)
  ARMS (SALE TO FOREIGN COUNTRIES)
  SUDAN (ASSISTANCE)
  SUDAN (ASSISTANCE)
FUEL AND POWER
  Anthracite Supplies, North of Scotland
  Anthracite Supplies, North of Scotland
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Hospital Waiting Lists, Newcastle Region
  Hospital Waiting Lists, Newcastle Region
  Cranbrook Committee (Report)
  Cranbrook Committee (Report)
ROADS
  Tyne Tunnel
  Tyne Tunnel
  Repairs and Improvements
  Repairs and Improvements
EMPLOYMENT
  Unemployment, Tyneside
  Unemployment, Tyneside
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Officers' Widows (Pensions)
  Officers' Widows (Pensions)

Preamble
Reassembling for Public Business after the Christmas Recess, the House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

THE CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS
2.36 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the letter from Sir Francis William Lascelles, K.C.B., M.C., announcing the resignation of his office of Clerk of the Parliaments, as from December 31, 1958.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg to move that the letter be now considered.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, as your Lordships are probably aware, my noble friend the Leader of the House is on his way to Malaya. It therefore falls to my own lot to perform the pleasant if, in some ways, melancholy duty of moving the two Motions which stand in his name. But before I do so, I should like to tell your Lordships, at his direction and request, how sorry he is not to be able to be here personally to pay his own tribute to Sir Francis Lascelles, upon whose judgment he often so securely leaned, and upon whose help and assistance he, like his predecessors, drew so heavily. I am glad to see present below the gangway my noble friend Lord Salisbury, who held the position of Leader of the House for so long and who was in close association with Sir Francis, and I hope that he will be able to give just that intimate touch which my noble friend Lord Home could have given had he been personally present. I therefore beg to move the first of these Motions:
"That this House received with sincere concern the announcement of the retirement of Sir Francis William Lascelles, K.C.B., M.C., from the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments, and thinks it right to record the just sense which it entertains of the zeal,
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ability, diligence and integrity with which the said Sir Francis William Lascelles executed the important duties of his Office."
My Lords, the letter to which the Motion refers marks the end—symbolised fittingly by the emptiness of the chair he so long occupied—of a long and distinguished career in the service of your Lordships' House, which culminated in the tenure during the last five years of the historic Office of Clerk of the Parliaments. Your Lordships will remember that on December 2 my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack read to the House the letter which he had received from Sir Francis announcing the resignation of his office, which would take effect from the first day of the present New Year. Your Lordships then decided to pay the tribute of the House to Sir Francis on the day we were due to reassemble after the Christmas Recess—this being today, the first sitting day after the date on which his retirement took effect.
Compared with that enjoyed by many—perhaps most—of your Lordships, my own life in this House has been, so far, a brief one. Many of your Lordships have far longer memories and experience of Sir Francis's services than I have, for I came here only after he had already achieved the highest position open to him in this House. I have in my day met many officials of different degrees of fallibility and judgment, but in my acquaintance, short as it has been, with Sir Francis I have found him to be an adviser who, in his own particular field, if he had not attained infallibility completely, must certainly have come within measurable distance of it.
Forty years of diligent industry have given Sir Francis an unrivalled knowledge of the history and procedure of this House. Perhaps I may adapt one of the sayings of the first Lord Birkenhead: Precedents are like lamp posts, set there to guide our way and not to support our instability. Sir Francis, like a true master of his craft, knew his precedents, and yet, because he knew also the reasons that had guided those who had made them, was not slavishly bound by them in any pedantic or literal sense. For though, very rightly, he preferred the known to the unknown way, he also recognised that precedent could not always be applied and that new cases sometimes called for new

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remedies. We have all, I think—or certainly nearly all—experienced his unvarying courtesy and infinite patience. Some of us (and here I can speak for myself, since I had the pleasure of serving with the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, on his Committee some two years ago) have been lucky enough to be in a position to testify to the invaluable advice and information he always made available to the Committees of the House, as well as to its entire membership.
It would be wrong, I think, were we to pass from this Motion without a word of welcome to his successor. Mr. Goodman has everything to recommend him—personality, knowledge and experience. But whoever succeeds Sir Francis, and whatever his merits be, the retirement of one gifted with such erudition and endowed with the experience and the personality of Sir Francis Lascelles is a matter for general regret whenever it comes. No one can grudge him his retirement after forty years, and I am sure that your Lordships will join with me in hoping that the years in front of him may be both many and happy. But, knowing Sir Francis as we do, we can be certain that they will not be idle. He has already given as much of his leisure as he could afford to public welfare and to the care and cure of the sick and ailing. The Mary Ward Settlement, the Moorfields Eye Hospital, and the Royal Free Hospital School of Medicine know him well and have been greatly indebted to him for his invaluable advice in the management and conduct of their business.
My Lords, let us hope that these other links of service in London, which still continue, will lure him and Lady Lascelles from time to time from their retreat in distant Yorkshire. I can assure them, and I know that in saying this I am speaking for the House, that there will always be a welcome for them here and they will always have friends to meet in your Lordships' House. I beg to move.
Moved, to resolve, That this House received with sincere concern the announcement of the retirement of Sir Francis William Lascelles, K.C.B., M.C., from the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments, and thinks it right to record the just sense which it entertains of the zeal, ability, diligence, and integrity with
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which the said Sir Francis William Lascelles executed the important duties of his Office.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
2.45 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I know that all who are associated with me on these Benches are fully in accord with the whole of the comprehensive tribute which has been paid by the Acting Leader of the House, Lord Hailsham, to Sir Francis Lascelles. I agree with him that such occasions as these, if we think about them too long, can be melancholy, because they mean parting from a friend whom we meet daily and know intimately. But when we come to look at the actual fact of the matter, that obviously Sir Francis must have planned in his mind, with all that method and accuracy with which he has carried out all his work, the time when he would have to arrive at this situation, when he retired officially from our midst, and when we look back on the service which he has given to this House, I would say that perhaps there is no finer occasion in Parliament than when we pay tribute to a great public servant. At times the Press shows a tendency to think that any public servant is someone who is worth "having a go" at, but in the case of Sir Francis Lascelles never a tongue has been heard offering a word of criticism.
From my experience in your Lordships' House, which is only two or three years more than that of the noble Viscount the Lord President of the Council, and from my experience with other public servants in other Departments, I would say that I know of no better public servant than Sir Francis Lascelles, in his service both to this House and to the country at large. He held a post of enormous importance. Not only had he to know the history of the House and to hold in mind all its traditions, but at all times it was essential, in the interests of the country, that he should give all the advice that might fall to be necessary to prevent the House from going on the wrong line on any question.
For myself, I have found, whether in office or out of office, that Sir Francis gave the best possible advice on procedural matters that your Lordships' House could wish for—advice that was full and frank and completely impartial in policy. I am grateful to him, and all my noble friends are grateful to him.

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His public work done on private lines outside the House speaks for itself. It establishes the spirit, over and above the general academic and other merits, of the man. I am reminded once more of two lines which I often quote:
"Whoso hath seen the spirit of the Highest, Cannot confound nor doubt Him, nor deny."
I think that Sir Francis has something of that spirit, the kind of spirit that guides us all, if we are sincere and genuine, through our public life. May we always have such men to work with as Sir Francis! We wish him every joy, happiness and health in his retirement. We hope that we shall often see him.
My Lords, we wish his successor, Mr. Victor Goodman, who must be thankful for the apprenticeship he has served under Sir Francis, every success when he comes, at your Lordships' bidding, to take Sir Francis's place.
2.49 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, noble Lords on these Benches and I would like to associate ourselves most sincerely with the tributes which have been so eloquently paid to Sir Francis Lascelles. As I understand that other noble Lords wish to add to these tributes, I shall be brief. I would say how much we in this quarter of the House, this minority quarter, have been indebted to Sir Francis Lascelles, in his great position, for his continuous help and sympathy and wisdom at all times. Time passes quickly, and although I have been in your Lordships' House only a short time longer than the noble Viscount the Lord President of the Council, it seems to me a very short time since the then Clerk Assistant was elevated to that great position of Clerk of the Parliaments, the highest appointment in the official service of the British Parliament, and therefore, I would say, in the service of any Parliament in the world.
We say farewell to him with great gratitude for what he has been and what he has done, and equally we welcome his successor. Sir Francis has indeed characterised the stability, the dignity and the responsibility of that Estate of the Realm which it is our privilege in this House to represent. Age and wisdom are said to go together. In this case I think there can be no connection, because your Lordships will agree with me that Sir Francis seems to get younger, both physically and
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mentally, every day. It must therefore be some esoteric wisdom that has caused him to deal us this rather sad blow. But in accepting it, as we do, we wish him and Lady Lascelles every sort of happiness in his retirement from the great office he has so eminently carried out.
2.51 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the Leaders of the Parties have spoken so well of the services of Sir Francis Lascelles to this House that really there is little more to be said, but I should like, as one who has worked very happily with him over many years, to add a few words of heartfelt thanks to him for all his constant help and his many courtesies and kindnesses to us all, from the Leaders of the House to the youngest and newest Members of it, during the time that he has held his very onerous and responsible post. I personally owe him more than I can possibly say.
The position of the Clerk of the Parliaments is a most unusual one; one might almost say that it is unique. He is expected to know everything that is to be known about everything that has any reference to the House of Lords and its business, whether it relates to some rather abstruse constitutional point, the care of our great collection of documents, or, when any of us are in doubt, the proper procedure that any of us individually should take in certain given circumstances: whatever the problem may be, we all go to him and we expect immediate and authoritative advice. That means that any really good Clerk of the Parliaments must have to a marked degree three great and rare qualities: learning, wisdom and tact. And certainly no Clerk within my memory, not even the late Lord Badeley, who kept a fatherly eye on us for so many years, has shown those qualities with greater distinction than has Sir Francis Lascelles. He has always seemed to have unlimited time to spare for every one of us. He never volunteered advice, but if he was asked he always gave it; and it was always good. Even if he thought that one was contemplating something particularly silly, he never said so; just the very faintest spasm of pain passed across his face, and that was usually quite enough for most of us.
By his kindness and consideration Sir Francis has won a host of friends and, I am quite certain, not a single enemy. We

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shall miss him very much in this place, to which so quietly and unobtrusively, and yet with such wisdom and understanding, he has devoted so much of his life. No one deserves a rest more than he does, but I hope that he will not entirely desert us but will come and visit us from time to time. He will always be assured, as the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, has already said, of a warm welcome from all of us in this place, whose deep respect and affection he has won and will always retain.
In saying this, like the Acting Leader of the House and the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, I should like to give a very warm welcome to his successor, Mr. Goodman. Mr. Goodman has already a great many friends in this House, and I am certain he will justify his selection.
2.55 p.m.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I should like to add one word of tribute, and that for a special reason, to our old friend. As the Acting Leader of the House has said, we who served on the Committee on the Attendance of Peers are deeply in Sir Francis Lascelles's debt, and in what I say I know I shall be speaking for everybody on all sides of the House who served on that Committee. Sir Francis has a unique knowledge of the history and practice of Parliament from the earliest times, and that was always at our disposal. But, in addition, both before the Committee sat and throughout its sittings, Sir Francis was making continuous research into a hundred-and-one matters which it was necessary that we should know and determine and report with accuracy. I am sure that our work could not have been anything like as thorough, as expeditious or as agreeable if it had not been for the daily, constant help which Sir Francis gave us. And if we are in his debt, so indeed is the whole House.
It has never been an easy thing to succeed a successful man in a great office. Sir Francis had to follow the late Lord Badeley, who had every quality that goes to make a successful Clerk of the Parliaments But very soon, on all sides of the House, we found that in Sir Francis we had a successor as Clerk of the Parliaments in the truest Badeley tradition, and it was only a few months before we began to turn to him, just as we all used
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to turn to Jack Badeley. It did not matter to what Party we belonged, if we were worried or did not know about something, almost as a matter of course we would say in the Library or in the Lobby: "Let's ask Fra." I do not think there can be a better tribute to him and all he was to us than that commonplace saying: "Let's ask Fra." It is the best tribute we could pay to him. It is the tribute that we did pay to him all the time that he was our Clerk, and I do not think he could have a more agreeable memory to take into his retirement when, wise man that he is, he comes home to us in Yorkshire to spend what I hope will be many happy and prosperous days.
2.59 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, so many eloquent tributes have been paid to Sir Francis Lascelles that I add some words of my own only because of the peculiar debt under which the occupant of the Woolsack is to the Clerk of the Parliaments. It must have been quite obvious to every Member of your Lordships' House that the ready counsel and guidance of Sir Francis Lascelles has been of inestimable service to me, coming as I did to the occupancy of the Woolsack without any previous experience of your Lordships' House. I shall never forget the debt that I owe to him; I do not know what I could have done without him. There was always that charming and friendly personality to convey the advice. That has gone on now for 4¼ years, and I think it is right to put on record that every day on which your Lordships' House has sat during that period he has come to me to indicate the task in store for us for the day, and to offer his counsel and advice upon our work in the most modest and self-effacing terms, yet founded on that wealth of experience which we all knew.
Many of your Lordships have mentioned his learning and experience. I would venture only to add this: that it was joined to an almost instinctive understanding of the history and purpose of your Lordships' House. In these last years, when we have been reconsidering and rediscussing the almost infinite variety of projects for reform and alteration of the House, there was not one of them in which he could not help us in its history and antecedents. Now he

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departs with the grateful thanks of the House for being of service to each and all of us. I hope your Lordships will agree that the final word should be that he has done his work to the complete satisfaction of every Member of the House. I feel that that is the greatest tribute we can pay, but I also feel—and this is almost more important—that it is the tribute which would give most pleasure to him.
On question, Motion agreed to, nemine dissentiente.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in the name of my noble friend on the Order Paper. This Address to Her Majesty, which is in accordance with precedent, will secure to Sir Francis in the usual manner the pension attaching to his office.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty laying before Her Majesty a copy of the letter of the said Sir Francis William Lascelles, K.C.B., M.C., and likewise of the Resolution of this House, and recommending the said Sir Francis William Lascelles, to Her Majesty's Royal Grace and Bounty.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to nemine dissentiente: the said Address to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.
Then, the Lord Chancellor having informed the House on the 2nd December last that Her Majesty had, by Letters Patent, appointed Victor Martin Reeves Goodman, Esquire, C.B., O.B.E., M.C., to the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments, in the place of Sir Francis Lascelles, K.C.B., M.C., the Letters Patent were read. The said Victor Martin Reeves Goodman, Esquire, made the prescribed declaration (which declaration is set down in the Roll among the oaths of the great officers) in terms as follows:
"I, Victor Martin Reeves Goodman, do declare that I will be true and faithful and troth I will bear to Our Sovereign Lady the Queen and to Her Heirs and Successors. I will nothing know that shall be prejudicial to Her Highness Her Crown Estate and Dignity Royal, but that I will resist it to my power and with all speed I will advertise Her Grace thereof, or at the least some of Her Counsel in such wise as the same may come to Her knowledge. I will also well and truly serve
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Her Highness in the Office of Clerk of Her Parliaments making true Entries and Records of the things done and passed in the same. I will keep secret all such matters as shall be treated in Her said Parliaments and not disclose the same before they shall be published, but to such as it ought to be disclosed unto, and generally I will well and truly do and execute all things belonging to me to be done appertaining to the Office of Clerk of the Parliaments."
After which he took his seat at the Table.

CLERK ASSISTANT OF THE PARLIAMENTS
3.8 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have to acquaint the House that, by virtue of the power granted to me as Lord Chancellor by the Statute 5, George IV, Chapter 82, Section 3, I have appointed Anthony Henry Jeffreys, Esquire, to be your Lordships' Clerk Assistant in the place of Victor Martin Reeves Goodman, who has been appointed Clerk of the Parliaments.
I beg to move to resolve, That this House doth approve the appointment of the said Anthony Henry Jeffreys to be your Lordships' Clerk Assistant in the room of Victor Martin Reeves Goodman, who has been appointed Clerk of the Parliaments.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Resolution agreed to nemine dissentiente.

READING CLERK AND CLERK OF OUTDOOR COMMITTEES
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have also to acquaint your Lordships' House that by virtue of the power granted to me as Lord Chancellor by the Statute 5, George IV. Chapter 82, Section 3, I have appointed Henry Montagu Burrows, Esquire, C.B.E., to be your Lordships' Reading Clerk and Clerk of Outdoor Committees in the place of Anthony Henry Jeffreys, who has been appointed Clerk Assistant.
I beg to move to resolve, That this House doth approve the appointment of the said Henry Montagu Burrows to be your Lordships' Reading Clerk and Clerk of Outdoor Committees in the place of Anthony Henry Jeffreys, who has been appointed Clerk Assistant.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Resolution agreed to nemine dissentiente.

PROBATION OFFICERS' SALARIES
3.10 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, in the unavoidable absence of my noble friend Lord Pakenham, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in his name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government if they will now announce the revised salary scales for probation officers.]
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I understand that the Joint Negotiating Committee for the Probation Service have at present under consideration a claim by probation officers for revised salary scales, and until these negotiations are concluded Her Majesty's Government will not be in a position to make any announcement.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I understand that this matter has been under consideration for some time. May I take it that we shall be able to hear before the forthcoming debate on the youth services what the position is?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am sorry that it is not possible for me to forecast when the joint negotiating committee will complete their deliberations.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that last January, when the Home Secretary felt obliged to cut the rates recommended by the negotiating committee, he promised to look into the matter as soon as the economic position allowed. Would not the noble Lord agree that the time has now arrived, and does he not think he could urge Her Majesty's Government to come to an early decision on behalf of these most dedicated men?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am, of course, aware of what my right honourable friend said a year ago. It is hardly, I think, for me to express an opinion on whether that time has arrived, but the negotiations are, as I said, in progress, and I am sure that my right honourable friend will be taking all factors into consideration as soon as the committee advise him. Meantime, if the noble Lord will allow, I will certainly convey to my right honourable friend, what he has said.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware of the very high esteem in which magistrates hold the work of these probation officers, and that they sympathise very deeply with them in the difficulties under which they carry on their extremely valuable work?
LORD CHESHAM: Yes, my Lord, I am aware of that.

ANGLO-EGYPTIAN NEGOTIATIONS
3.12 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stand in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on the negotiations which have been in progress between Her Majesty's Government and the Egyptian Government during the last few days.]
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to make a statement on this subject immediately on the signing of the Agreement which was initialled on January 16, and at the same time to publish the full text of the Agreement.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I entirely appreciate that it is impossible for Her Majesty's Government to say anything more to-day. I wonder whether the noble Viscount the Lord President can give any indication as to when the statement is likely to be made.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Not precisely; I hope quite soon. It depends on arrangements to be made with the Government of the United Arab Republic.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, will there be anything but the text published? Are Her Majesty's Government going to prepare a general White Paper giving some explanation, so that the Agreement which has been signed can be understood and explaining how they qualify the terms of the Agreement?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, the immediate intention is to publish the text of the Agreement. No doubt, if other suggestions are made they can be considered.

HIGHWAYS BILL [H.L.]
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate, with Amendments, certain enactments relating to highways, streets and bridges in England and Wales, including certain enactments commonly contained in Local Acts, and to make consequential amendments of the Common Law. I beg to move that the Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Gosford.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

POST OFFICE WORKS BILL
3.15 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I do not think I need keep your Lordships very long in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. It is a straightforward Bill, and its purpose is to vest in my right honourable friend the Postmaster General certain deep-level chambers which were constructed under the Emergency Powers. The Bill, therefore, should really be regarded as part of the process of making possible the elimination of the emergency legislation relating to land, of which we have already had the Land Powers Defence Act and Opencast Coal Act as major measures. The only reason why this Bill was not presented last year with the others is that it was not possible to complete all the necessary preparations for it in the time. It is a Hybrid Bill and therefore, by Standing Orders, plans and a book of reference had to be deposited in this House and with the local authorities and Government Departments concerned by 20th November. Notices had to be published in the Press and served on the individuals affected. To compile the book of reference meant approaching each of between 400 and 500 owners, lessees and occupiers of the surface properties under which our works are constructed, so that they will have a proper opportunity to see how they are affected by the Bill, and, of course, to object to it if they so wish. I have arranged, for your Lordships convenience, for a copy of the book of reference and of the plans to be in the Library.
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I must say a word about the works. Shortly after the war small underground shelters which had been constructed mainly in the borough of Holborn for the Ministry of Home Security were taken over by the Post Office. They were extended and they were adapted. In 1953 similar works were begun in Manchester and in Birmingham. All these works are now complete, and consist of underground rooms with connecting passages more than fifty feet below the surface of the ground. They are used for essential Post Office purposes. They have a number of access and service shafts, but those all come out in surface property which the Post Office either owns or in which it has acquired the necessary interest. There is therefore no surface property to be vested under this Bill, but simply these deep underground works. Their extent, of course, is marked on the plans to which I have referred.
The Bill itself is quite short. Clause 1 vests in the Postmaster General the works which I have been talking about, except, of course, those parts in which he already holds an estate or interest. Clause 2 deals with compensation and provides that the Postmaster General shall not pay compensation for the subsoil vested in him by this Bill. If, however, at any time there is any subsidence in surface properties above these works which is caused by their falling in or not being kept watertight there will be a liability on the Post Office to pay damages. The tunnels are very deep and I do not think this is a very likely occurrence, but the clause follows the pattern of Section 5 of the Underground Works (London) Act, 1956. Clause 3 arises from the rather complicated origins of the London works. Subsection (1) safeguards the rights of the British Transport Commission in relation to points of junction of their works with our works. Subsection (2) saves certain agreements between the various Ministries, the London Passenger Transport Board and the British Transport Commission. Clause 4 is financial.
There is also one more point that I must mention. I said that these works are very deep below the surface, and that normally building operations above them will not be affected by their existence. It is possible, however, in these days for multi-storey modern buildings to have foundations going down perhaps forty or fifty feet. If this should happen, there

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might be some risk, unless precautions were taken, to the stability of the buildings themselves, as well as to the safety of the Post Office works and their contents. There is nothing in the Bill to guard against this eventuality, but I understand that it is the intention of my right honourable friend, after the passage of the Bill, to ask the Minister of Housing to issue a direction under Article 9 (3) of the Town and Country Planning (General Development) Order, 1950, to ensure that he is consulted about building in the vicinity of the works. This direction would not have the effect of restricting development of the surface property but would simply require the local planning authority to consult with the Post Office before reaching a decision on any application. That is the normal procedure followed by the Ministry of Housing to safeguard public interest when development is proposed in the vicinity of such things as explosives depôts, airfields, and so on, simply by making sure that the appropriate department is consulted. As I say, the direction would not restrict the right of surface owners to develop their properly. I thought it right to draw your Lordships' attention to this point as it is related to the purposes of the Bill. I do not think there is anything more I need say, and therefore I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Chesham.)
3.24 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, we are indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, for the clear explanation he has given of a Bill which at first sight would seem to lead a layman into all kinds of channelled thoughts. I think the position simply is that we have to pass this Bill in order to ensure that the Post Office side of this matter is properly carried out. Some of us who during the war, in our Service connections, were vitally interested in some of the properties that are now taken over by the Post Office, are happy that they should be so vested. It is essential that they should be maintained and should be put to equally good use in the future as they were put then. We hope that the use to which they will now be put by the Post Office will lead
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to increasing efficiency and economy in the Services.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Viscount for what he has said.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him a question on one point? He said that modern multi-storey buildings might require foundations going down to near the depth of these works. He has said that in such a case a developer would not be restricted in developing the surface land. But if such a building does require stronger foundations, owing to the presence of these works underground, who would pay?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, perhaps I did not make myself entirely clear on that point. I was trying to explain that it was preferable to have this method of direction whereby any applications for work—over the top—should be the subject of consultation with the Post Office. We did not wish to stultify development overhead, as it were, which one could not do in any other way. What is really intended is that in such odd cases as there may be where such buildings are intended, following consultations it might be found that the foundations could easily be moved, or a shore put in, or something like that, which would make everything safe. If, on the other hand, the scheme was such (I do not know whether the noble Earl wants me to go into great detail) that the development had to be prevented, then in certain normal cases the compensation clauses under the Town and Country Planning Acts would apply, and of course the Post Office would be responsible for indemnifying the Department concerned.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I do not want to keep the House from the far more exciting business of the Deer (Scotland) Bill, but Clause 2 looks a little obscure. I give the noble Lord notice that I should like to look at it again to see whether any Amendment is called for to make it clearer than it appears to be at this moment.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and referred to a Select Committee.

DEER (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
3.27 p.m.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 1:
Constitution and general functions of Red Deer Commission
1.—(1) There shall be constituted a commission to be called "the Red Deer Commission" (hereinafter in this Act referred to as "the Commission") which shall have the general functions of furthering the conservation and control of red deer and of keeping under review all matters relating to red deer, and such other functions as are conferred on them by or under this Act.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "Red". The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name. In my judgment, the word "Red" is redundant and in any case it might impose difficulties in regard to operating the Bill. Let us see what the Bill says. The Preamble to the Bill reads in this way:
"An Act to further the conservation and control of red deer in Scotland; to prevent the illegal taking and killing of all species of deer in Scotland; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid."
Then we come to Clause 1 which I am seeking to amend. These words appear in subsection (1):
"There shall be constituted a commission to be called 'the Red Deer Commission' … which shall have the general functions of furthering the conservation and control of red deer and of keeping under review all matters relating to red deer."
That seems to confine the operation of the Commission to red deer only.
On the other hand, it is now intended, by reason of Amendments which were moved on the Committee stage by certain noble Lords, in certain respects, to include in the operations of the Bill fallow deer and roe deer. I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, has in mind in relation to the Amendment in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Haddington, in respect of roe deer, but he certainly had it in mind to include in certain respects and for certain purposes fallow deer. I do not propose to discuss this Amendment, but merely to point out that the Secretary of State may, by Clause 20, in the words of Amendment No. 19:
"by order fix a period in each year during which any species of deer named in the order
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other than red deer, may not be taken or wilfully killed, and he may fix a different period for males and females of the species so named."
We all understand that one of the objects of that provision is to allow the Secretary of State for Scotland to make orders either in respect of fallow deer or roe deer, even though they may not be mentioned in the Amendment. But the proposed Amendment No. 19 says:
"Before making any such order as aforesaid the Secretary of State shall consult with any organisations that appear to him to represent persons likely to be affected by the order."
How is the Secretary of State to approach these organisations? Here I come to my main point. He will do so presumably through the Red Deer Commission. I shall be glad to hear whether there is some other method of doing so. If he approaches the Red Deer Commission, then I suggest that under Clause 1 as it stands, the Red Deer Commission being concerned only with red deer and not with fallow deer or roe deer, would have to say, "Thank you very much, but take your argument somewhere else. We are a Red Deer Commission and we have nothing to do with any other deer." It is on those grounds that it seems to me that while the word "red" is redundant in any event, in these circumstances it may hold up the operations of the Bill, and for that reason I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 8, leave out ("Red").—(Viscount Elibank.)
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I have always admired the noble Viscount's great interest in the Far East but I never for one moment expected that he would try to include Japanese and Chinese deer in the Deer (Scotland) Bill. Part I of this Bill is entirely designed to deal with the problem of red deer, a problem about which we know a considerable amount. As the noble Viscount will observe, the close season provisions have been moved to a different part of the Bill and are now in a part by themselves; so that the Red Deer Commission will have nothing whatsoever to do with close seasons. The habits and the problems of the red deer have been studied and we know where we are going with them. We have not yet studied the problem of fallow deer or roe deer and at present we can see no reason to control them more than they are being controlled at present.

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I would further point out to noble Lords that the noble Viscount's Amendment would have no effect at all, because all the provisions in Part I of the Bill relate entirely to action to be taken against red deer—for instance, Clause 6 which is concerned with marauding deer and envisages that those deer will be shot when they are on their way to, or leaving, agricultural land. They will be shot on open ground. The habits of roe deer are completely different. They live in woods. They may come out on to the fields and will then go back into the woods; so that Clause 6 is quite inappropriate to deal with roe deer, in any case. Part I of this Bill is designed to deal with red deer and I am quite certain that we should not take our eyes off the ball and that there is no need to make this Amendment. I would therefore ask the noble Viscount to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD BROCKET: My Lords, we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, that Part I of the Bill deals with red deer only; but if the Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, is to move later is carried, amending Clause 19, I think it will be found that Clause 19 is part of Part I of the Bill. I see that Part II of the Bill starts at Clause 22.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, is the noble Lord referring to Clause 19 or Clause 20?
LORD BROCKET: My Lords, the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, is to page 8, line 11. If that is Clause 20 it is equally Part I of the Bill. It seems to me that in due course this Bill will deal with fallow and roe deer, if the Secretary of State for Scotland wishes to bring forward measures to deal with them, and it appears to be unnecessary to have the title "Red Deer Commission" for a Commission which, though it may start by dealing only with red deer, may in due course deal with other varieties of deer. I should have thought that the word "red" here was unnecessary and limiting.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I can only repeat the argument I have already put forward, that many of the provisions in the Bill, such as Clause 6, would be entirely inappropriate to deal with roe deer. If roe deer were to be included in Part I of the Bill the whole of Part I would have to be re-written.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, is not the noble Lord, Lord Brocket, under a misapprehension? He has spoken of Clause 20 being in Part I of the Bill, but if I understand Amendment No. 21 aright that transposes Clause 20 to after Clause 21, as Part II, dealing with close seasons.
LORD BROCKET: My Lords, if that further Amendment is carried that will be so. But is there still any reason for calling this a Red Deer Commission when in due course they may deal with other forms of deer?
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, that is my point. It is rather difficult to explain and one is rather befogged by these various Amendments bringing in different kinds of deer. However, in the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD FORBES LORD FORBES had given Notice of several Amendments relating to the constitution of the Commission, the first being, in subsection (3), to leave out "ten" and insert "twelve". The noble Lord said: My Lords, for the convenience of the House I will speak on Amendments Nos. 2 to 7. The object of these Amendments is to bring crofting and forestry into the composition of the Commission. Membership of the Commission is now to be increased by two and will consist of twelve members and a chairman. There will be three members representing the interests of land used for agriculture or forestry, two representing sporting interests, three representing the interests of farmers and crofters, two representing the interests of hill sheep farming and two from the Nature Conservancy. During the Committee stage it was asked whether the Forestry Commission and the Crofters' Commission could be included in the Red Deer Commission. We have not included either the Forestry Commission or the Crofters' Commission because they are not really representative of private interests; they are quasi-Government bodies with executive functions. I have no doubt that both these Commissions will be consulted by the Red Deer Commission. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 16, leave out ("ten") and insert ("twelve").—(Lord Forbes.)
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will agree to all these Amendments. They may not be of great importance, but they do make the Commission more widely representative and therefore, I think, will go a good way to satisfying opinions that may otherwise not be altogether pleased.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, I should like to add my own approval to that of the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, but I would express this doubt: I do not think the relative numbers representing different interests really alter the balance of power to the extent that I should have liked to see. I should have liked more power given to both crofters and forestry representatives, because by whatever name we call owners of land used for agriculture or forestry or sporting interests, the difficulty is in believing that they are really people with different interests. However, for this small mercy I am duly grateful.
LORD BROCKET: My Lords, on the Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, kindly promised to consider some criticisms which were put forward, and I am glad he has gone into them so thoroughly. The series of Amendments here and later in the Bill are, I think, the result of his reconsideration; and I should like to give him my support, for what it is worth.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, is it the will of the House that I should take the remaining group of Amendments together?
Amendments moved—
Page 2, line 1, leave out ("two") and insert ("three")
Page 2, line 2, leave out ("landowners") and insert ("owners of land used for agriculture or forestry")
Page 2, line 7, leave out ("two") and insert ("three")
Page 2, line 9, leave out ("in general") and insert ("and crofters")
Page 2, line 12, at end insert—
("(5) For the purpose of this section the expression 'crofter' has the like meaning as in the Crofters (Scotland) Act, 1955.")—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to
Clause 2 [Appointment of panels]:
3.41 p.m.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment ensures that the panel will
572
have on it at least one voice from the two main groups—that is, the land owners' sporting group and the farming group. In addition, there will be at least one other person who will be chosen, and that person will be the right person in the circumstances, rather than a representative of any particular interest. The Government are not prepared to tie the hands of the Commission any further than that, because in some areas it may be an extremely difficult task to set up these panels at all. If the panels are to work successfully I think it is essential that they should have local knowledge and be accepted locally by the people in the district. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 20, at end insert—
("(2) Any panel set up in pursuance of the last foregoing subsection shall include at least one representative of the interests mentioned in heads (b) and (c) and at least one representative of the interests mentioned in heads (d) and (e) of subsection (4) of the foregoing section.")—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6 [Power of Commission to deal with marauding deer]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, perhaps I may speak on Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 together. In the case of marauding deer Amendment No. 9 gives the person with the right to kill the deer—that is the owner or tenant from whom the deer happen to be coming—the first chance to kill the deer, provided that he deals with the complaint forthwith. This was what was asked for during the Committee stage. My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 29, at end insert—
("(2) Where the Commission are satisfied that the deer which appear to be causing damage as aforesaid come from particular land, and that any person having the right to kill deer thereon will forthwith undertake the killing of the deer first-mentioned, the Commission shall, instead of issuing an authorisation under the last foregoing subsection, make a request in writing to that person to kill those deer.")—(Lord Forbes.)
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for meeting so very reasonably the arguments we put forward.
LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL: My Lords, I should like to support those thanks. In Committee I moved an Amendment, the substance of

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which was the same as this, and I should like to thank my noble friend for meeting it in a most satisfactory way.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 10.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 30, leave out ("the last foregoing subsection") and insert ("this section").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment provides that notice of the Commission's intention to follow and kill marauding deer may be served on the agent or servant of an occupier or an owner, provided that that agent or servant is responsible for the management or the farming of the land. This is intended to meet the case of the owner or occupier who for some reason is away. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 40, at end insert—
("( ) Without prejudice to the general provisions of section sixteen of this Act relating to the service of notices, any notice to be served under this section on an owner or occupier of land shall, where an agent or servant is responsible for the management or the farming of the land, be duly served if served on the said agent or servant.")—(Lord Forbes.)
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for this Amendment. Again, I moved one of the same substance on the Committee stage; and this Amendment, if I may say so, goes even further than mine did and is. I think, more satisfactory.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would explain what is meant by the proviso he expressed in explaining this particular Amendment. Does it mean that where the agent is not an active participant in management he will not be regarded as the agent? Or must he be an agent who is actively operating the particular estate?
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I think that if the owner or occupier says, "That person is my manager" that will be sufficient.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, would a lawyer not do?
LORD FORBES: If he were considered to be managing the land, yes.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
3.47 p.m.
VISCOUNT ASTOR VISCOUNT ASTOR moved to add to the clause:
"(6) Where functions under this section are exercised by a panel appointed under section two of this Act any person aggrieved by any action taken by the panel in exercise of such functions may make application to the Commission for the holding of a public local inquiry into the circumstances in which such action has been taken and where such an application is made and not withdrawn the Commission shall cause a public local inquiry to be held by a person appointed by them and shall send to the panel and to the person by whom such application is made copies of the report of the person who held the inquiry stating his findings with regard to the circumstances as aforesaid:
Provided that nothing in this subsection shall require the panel to suspend or modify any action so taken by them or to defer taking further action in exercise of such functions unless the Commission, after receipt by them of an application made under this subsection, direct the panel to do so.
(7) The provisions of subsections (3) to (6) of section three hundred and fifty-five of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947 (which relate to the holding of local inquiries) shall apply in relation to a public local inquiry held under the last foregoing subsection as they apply in relation to local inquiries held under the said section three hundred and fifty-five.
(8) The person appointed to hold a public local inquiry under subsection (6) of this subsection—

(a) shall, having regard to the object and result of the inquiry, determine whether the expenses incurred by the Commission in relation to the holding of the inquiry shall he borne by them or shall he paid to them by the person on whose application the inquiry was held; and

(b) may make an award as to the expenses of the parties at the inquiry and as to the parties by whom such expenses shall be paid."

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is put forward to try to meet the objections which were raised to a similar Amendment on the Committee stage. I would assure noble Lords that those of us interested in this matter are not interested in merely formal and theoretical grounds, but because during the war sub-committees of war agriculture committees sometimes used their powers in an unreasonable manner, and there was no way whatever, under the legislation as it was, of getting this misuse of powers properly inquired into. Therefore I suggest in the first Amendment I put down that when a local panel issued unreasonable orders the owner or occupier should be able to appeal to the Secretary of State for an inquiry into the

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way the panel was working. Two objections were made to this course. The first was that the Secretary of State, in appointing a Commission had to appoint reasonable men and trust them to look after their own panels. The second was that there might be some delay. Obviously, if there were marauding deer, and if an order were given and there had to be delay for allowing inquiry, those marauding deer would clear the crops completely and the whole purpose of this part of the Bill might be nullified.
The suggestion which I venture to put before your Lordships to-day is this: that if an owner or occupier feels that a local panel is misusing its powers he should be able to ask the Commission to hold an inquiry; that the Commission should appoint an inspector who would hold, as early as possible, a public inquiry, in which the local panel would have to give its reasons why it made these orders, and hear objections and have cross-examinations; and that there should be a public report. Therefore there could be no hanky-panky in the dark, because all the reasons would be shown absolutely fairly and clearly. I am sure that if that is done it will avoid arty scandal and abuse of powers. The mere existence of this right to ask for an inspector to act if there is a dispute between the owner and the panel will almost certainly mean that it will hardly ever be used. But it is very important that arbitrary powers, with no reasons for their being given and which allow of no examination, should not be put in the hands of any body of men, however carefully they may be selected. The second point is that if there is this question of marauding deer it is not necessary to hold up action. If the panel feel this is a real and pressing danger they could go ahead and kill the deer, pending an inquiry; but, of course, the Amendment would act as a check on them in using these powers because they would know they might have to justify the way they used them to the inspector afterwards. I hope that these two Amendments to my original proposal will meet the objections which were made, and will prove acceptable to the House. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 4, at end insert the said subsections.—(Viscount Astor.)
3.50 p.m.
LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL: My Lords, I am not at all certain that this power to set up machinery to enable an inquiry to be held is necessary, and I think it is less necessary now that your Lordships have agreed to the Amendment to Clause 2 which lays down the composition of the panels, thereby ensuring that the panels are composed, broadly, in the same manner as the Red Deer Commission itself. There is, however, one thing which I would ask my noble friend the Minister if he would do, which would make any question of an inquiry even more unnecessary: that is, whether he will state that the Red Deer Commission will have a completely independent status. That is to say, that its staff should not be composed of actual members of the Department of Agriculture. That would give complete confidence in it among all the parties who will be concerned in its administrations. Further, if possible, it should be financed directly from the Treasury and not through the Secretary of State for Scotland. Whether or not that is a possibility, I do not know, but if my noble friend the Minister could give an assurance that the Red Deer Commission would be completely independent, I think it would be to the great advantage of all concerned.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, I agree entirely with my noble friend Lord Stratheden and Campbell. I cannot see that this Amendment is either necessary or desirable, because it would put into the hands of an unreasonable aggrieved person a perpetual power to hamstring the operation of the Commission by asking for an inquiry which, according to the terms of the Amendment, could not be refused. It has the further weakness that it perpetuates one of the most undesirable features of the administration of the Agricultural Acts during the war: that is to say, that any appeal from the operations of an agricultural executive committee was not to an independent tribunal but was to the Secretary of State. As we were always informed, the agricultural committees were really the Secretary of State carrying out certain directions. If such an inquiry were to have any value, there would have to be an independent inquirer such as the sheriff substitute or the sheriff principal,

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and that would lead to a considerable amount of public expense. I am afraid it would be a case of employing a sledgehammer for the purpose of breaking a not very strong nut.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, might I answer that one point, that a person might abuse these powers? Surely the remedy for that is the power which is given in the last subsection. The inspector can say who has to pay the costs of the inquiry, and if somebody keeps on asking for frivolous inquiries he can certainly mulct him with the costs and so discourage him from misusing this power. It is a very good way, I should think—certainly in Scotland—of preventing frivolous inquiries from being demanded.
The noble Earl has now gone back to my original idea. My original idea was for an independent inspector. Then I was told: "You must not have an independent inspector; you must trust the Commission." Now I suggest it should be the Commission's inspector, and I am told that it ought to be an independent inspector. Surely an inspector from the Commission, before whom you have a chance to state your case, is a very valuable safeguard. The noble Lord may not have had the experience that we had in our part of Scotland during the war, but I can assure your Lordships, without going into details, that there were foresters to whom much permanent damage was done by the unreasonable use of powers by local committees.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Surely it would be a wholly undesirable thing to put into the hands of such an inspector the power to be able to mulct anyone in costs?
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Mansfield and Lord Stratheden and Campbell, for pointing out so very well why this Amendment should not be agreed to. The noble Viscount obviously wishes to make some provision for an inquiry, but we can see that the Bill as drafted provides adequate safeguards, so that that is not necessary. I would also point out that the public inquiry that is suggested is not really appropriate in any way, because there is no provision for the taking of any disciplinary action as a result of the inquiry, and there is no provision for
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compensation. What is the use of having an inquiry if there is no provision for putting the matter right? Another point is that it is no good having an inquiry when the act has been done and we know that there are no means of putting it right.
The noble Lord, Lord Stratheden and Campbell, asked whether I could give an assurance that the Red Deer Commission would be completely independent. I can state that it will be independent, subject, of course, to the overall direction of the Secretary of State. Regarding the financing of the Commission, I imagine that this would be done through the Secretary of State, though initially, of course, the money has to come from the Treasury. In view of the fact that adequate safeguards exist to ensure that the panel acts reasonably, I cannot agree to accept this Amendment.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, while this conference is going on, may I say a word on the general principle. I cannot pretend to be acquainted with the details of the Bill itself, but as it seems to me, here is a body which is entrusted with certain functions which may be quasi-judicial. Their decisions may affect individuals, and an individual may feel aggrieved. It seems to me reasonable that that individual should have some opportunity of appealing to somebody for an inquiry to be held into his grievance. That was the purpose behind the appointment of the Franks Committee, which the Government set up. The Report of that Committee was accepted unanimously, and I think was greeted with enthusiasm by every Member of this House. Indeed, in some respects it was thought that the Franks Committee did not go far enough: and we have recently had legislation passed through this House for the purpose of implementing the provisions of the Franks Committee.
I cannot myself see the difference between an appeal against the decision of, say, a local authority or of a tribunal set up by a Minister and an appeal against this Commission, which is also a body set up by the Minister. I should have thought that it would be well worth while for the Government to give further consideration to this point, to ensure that any aggrieved person had an opportunity of ventilating his grievance. There may be technical

579
objections to the wording of this Amendment; there may be certain difficulties, such as those outlined by noble Lords who have spoken; but I think that it would be right that the Government should look at this principle again and see that no body is given a power to act without the subject's having an opportunity of making representations if he is dissatisfied with their decision.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, an aggrieved person can ventilate his grievance to the Secretary of State, who would use his power of direction under Clause 1 (2) if the panel have acted unreasonably.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, that would be very good if the aggrieved person had an opportunity of having an inquiry, the Secretary of State then coming to a decision. We should then reach the position that obtain at the present time in planning appeals, where the Minister holds an inquiry and makes a decision. But there is no provision here for an inquiry. That is just the protection that the subject wants.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, the subject has protection. The thing we cannot do anything about is that when the wrong has been done, it cannot be righted; the damage has been done.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for his support on what, after all, is a matter of principle.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have no more power than any other Member of your Lordships' House, but I would point out that it is the usual procedure of your Lordships on Report stage to make only one speech on an Amendment and not to duplicate the Committee stage.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, may I, with your Lordships' permission, finish these remarks, which I hope will be brief? I am most grateful for Lord Silkin's support and for the concession that the Minister has made in saying that the Secretary of State will have power of direction, but I do not see how the Secretary of State can use the power of direction intelligently unless he sends an inspector to the spot to hear both sides
580
and advise him on how he should use this power. I hope that the noble Lord will consider this point. It might be said that the deer have been shot in any case, so why the argument? But we cannot have it both ways. One cannot hold up all action, because the deer are marauding, and therefore an inquiry is impossible; and at the same time one cannot have action and then say that there can be no inquiry because it is too late. I suggest that what we can do, if the panel have used their powers unreasonably, is to give the Commission authority to sack the panel and appoint a new one or give directions that in future they must be more careful of how they use their powers. That is all we want. Like the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, I hope that this matter will be considered further as a matter of principle. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 7 [Control schemes]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Greenhill and Lord Mathers, for bringing the matter of this Amendment to my attention on Committee stage. The Government accept the view that the words "serious" and "or mitigation" are unnecessary, in view of the fact that any control scheme drawn up by the Commission must go through the detailed procedure laid down in the Second Schedule of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 6, leave out "serious".—(Lord Forbes.)
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, I want only to express my thanks to the noble Lord for having been impressed by the force of the arguments from this side of the House.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I apologise to your Lordships; I should have taken Amendments Nos. 14 and 15 with Amendment No. 13. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 4, line 10, leave out "or mitigation"
Page 4, line 13, leave out "or mitigation".—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
clause 8 [Contents of control schemes]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment also fulfils a promise that I gave on Committee stage, that I would look into the question of fencing. This Amendment goes a bit further than was suggested on Committee stage. It now includes a ditch or a fence to prevent the movement of deer, and the occupants, as well as the owners, are protected from I he requirement of putting up a fence. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 8, at end insert—
"(3) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of this section shall empower the Commission to impose on any owner or occupier of land a requirement to construct a fence on his land or on any part thereof against the movement of red deer, and for the purposes of this section 'fence' shall include any artificial obstruction."—(Lord Forbes.)
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: My Lords, as this Amendment is substantially the same as the one which I moved on Committee stage—indeed, it goes even further than my Amendment—I should like to thank the noble Lord very much for moving it. I think that it is important that it should be definitely stated that a control scheme imposes no obligation on an owner to put up any sort of obstruction. Moreover, as was mentioned before Christmas, when we were discussing this Bill, if a control scheme works properly it should make any kind of obstruction or fence unnecessary. I thank the noble Lord for his attention to this matter.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15 [Entry on land]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment limits entry on to land by the Commission, except in the case of marauding deer, to the period of one month without fresh notice of entry. Any fresh notice of entry must he served fourteen days before re-entry. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 40, leave out from ("unless")
to the end of line 2 on page 7, and insert ("notice has been given to the owner and the occupier of the land that it is proposed to enter during a period, specified in the notice, not exceeding one month and beginning at least fourteen days after the giving of the notice, and entry is made on the land during the period specified in the notice").—(Lord Forbes.)
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, again I should like to thank the noble Lord for accepting the substance of the arguments put before him.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 20:
close seasons
20.—(1) No person shall take or wilfully kill any stag, being a red deer, during the period commencing on the twenty-first day of October and ending on the thirtieth day of June or any hind, being a red deer, during the period commencing on the sixteenth day of February and ending on the twentieth day of October.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD moved to add to subsection(1):
"or sell the carcase or part of the carcase of any red deer during the period commencing on the sixteenth clay of February and ending on the thirtieth day of June."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to act as a further deterrent to poaching for profit by prohibiting the sale of venison when red deer are out of season. I understand that in the case of cold-storage venison, any retailer who sold out-of-season venison should assure a food inspector that the venison had been legally obtained in season. I appreciate that if the sale of cold-storage venison were prohibited, it might impose hardship on some retailers. Personally, I believe that the time will come when we shall need legislation to provide that all dealers in venison must have a game dealer's licence. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 11, at end insert the said new words.—(Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON:
My Lords, I should like to support this Amendment, and if the Minister is going to consider a further safeguard would it not be better to have a clause to make it easier for butchers to accept carcases from the cold-storage places during the proposed close season?
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I appreciate the object of this Amendment, namely, that it is an effort to try to strengthen the anti-poaching aspect of this Bill, but I am afraid that the prohibition of the sale of red deer venison would be impossibly cumbersome to enforce. There are many practical difficulties to be overcome. First of all, somebody would

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have to decide what was red deer venison and what was fallow deer and roe deer venison, and that would cause considerable difficulty. The main difficulty that I can see is that a lot of this venison is sold in England—and some of it is even sold in Germany. This would mean that we should need to have inspectors in England, in any event, and possibly also in Germany. Owing to the many practical difficulties, I cannot agree to this Amendment.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, does this apply to hinds as distinct from stags?
LORD FORBES: Presumably so.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, with regard to having to have inspectors in Germany, I should have thought that if you had inspectors at the harbours where the venison was shipped, or at the airport where the venison was flown out of the country, that should suffice. However, in view of the difficulties involved, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.13 p.m.
LORD FORBES LORD FORBES moved, after subsection (1), to insert:
"(2) The Secretary of State may by order fix a period in each year during which any species of deer named in the order other than red deer (cervus elaphus), may not be taken or wilfuly killed, and he may fix a different period for males and females of the species so named.
(3) Before making any such order as aforesaid the Secretary of State shall consult with any organisations that, appear to him to represent persons likely to be affected by the order.
(4) For the purposes of this section "red deer" means deer of the species cervus elaphus."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is an enabling Amendment, to allow the Secretary of State to make close seasons for species of deer other than red deer. Each species will have a separate order which may give different dates for close seasons for males and females. The Amendment is drafted to take into account the fact that at present not enough is known about deer of other species to allow close seasons to be fixed for them in this Bill. This will ensure that the position is thoroughly investigated before the Secretary of State makes his orders. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 11, at end insert the said subsections.—(Lord Forbes.)
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, for giving this matter of a close season for other species of deer so much consideration, and with this Government Amendment on the Marshalled List I will not move Amendment No. 23. However, with other noble Lords who advocate close seasons for fallow and roe deer, I am somewhat disappointed that the noble Lord could not see his way to fix definite dates for a close season to come into operation as soon as the Bill becomes law. I am pleased with the Amendment, but in my view it has one unfortunate aspect. Because the Amendment relates to Clause 20 it means that an interim period of three or four years must elapse between the passing of the Bill and the ability of the Secretary of State to prescribe close seasons. It seems to me that there is no reason why a close season for species of deer other than red deer, should not be brought in, if the Secretary of State so desire, as soon as this Bill becomes law.
The same factors do not apply to red deer as apply to the fallow or roe deer or to other species of deer. There is no necessity to have this hiatus in order that the surplus stocks may be cleared off, which I think was the subject of an agreement between the owners of the forests and the sheep breeders, and on which the whole Bill is rather based. Could not the noble Lord put his Amendment, word for word as it stands, in a part of the Bill outside Clause 20, so as to enable the Secretary of State, if he so desires, and only if he desires, and after consultation with all the necessary organisations, to bring it in before this long period of three or four years? All we want is to prevent other species of deer from being shot, poached or trapped during the breeding season. Could the noble Lord meet us in this respect?
THE MARQUESS OF WILLINGDON: My Lords, I want to support wholeheartedly the noble Earl, Lord Haddington. The experts, including the noble Earl, will probably bear me out when I say that the seeker deer, which I think is increasing almost as much as the fallow deer, appears to have been forgotten.
LORD LOVAT: My Lords, I should like to support the noble Earl, Lord Haddington, in what he has said. As recently as September, 1958, there was a case of poaching of roe deer in Scotland, in the County of Inverness, where a man out looking for roe deer shot two sheep, and the only extenuating excuse he could produce was that he thought they were roe deer. There seems to be absolutely no point in allowing that sort of thing to go on untrammelled for a period of years before the situation can be reviewed.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, I cannot agree that there is not sufficient evidence to justify the prohibition of the slaughter of hinds and roes during the breeding season. Be that as it may, we are grateful to the noble Lord for having introduced an Amendment which goes even further in certain respects than that proposed by my noble friend Lord Haddington, inasmuch as it makes provision for all possible future kinds of deer that might be involved. There is, however, one point that I would suggest to the noble Lord to which consideration might he given when this measure reaches another place. Could not power be given to the Secretary of State to fix close seasons, if required, only for a certain portion of the country? I can well envisage a situation arising in which roe deer—we can leave out fallow deer in this respect, because they are not sufficiently nutherous—might in certain areas be causing damage serious enough to justify their being shot during what ought to be the close season, whereas over the rest of the country that might not be justified. I suggest that power to fix designated areas would be to the advantage of all concerned.
LORD BROCKET: My Lords, I want to support the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, in his Amendment, and I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State will have these powers. With regard to the point brought forward by the noble Earl, Lord Haddington, it remains to be seen whether the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, is prepared to accept my Amendment No. 20A when I move it, as to whether the close season may be brought a little nearer or not.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, for his Amendment, but at
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the same time I would support the noble Earl, Lord Haddington, in trying to get it removed from Clause 20 of the Bill, and for a similar reason: that Clause 20 will not come into operation until 1961 or 1962. I feel that in that time the fallow deer, particularly, which are not at all numerous in Scotland, may have suffered a severe reduction in number.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, this Amendment, of course, is an advance on the original Bill, for which those of us who supported the noble Earl, Lord Haddington, are grateful. But I hope that the noble Minister will be able to give serious consideration to the proposition put forward by the noble Earl this afternoon.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, stags have been roaring all around, and luckily there have been no hinds who seem to have been in combination with them. I am afraid that I must come in as the old switch to try to clear the ground for everyone. The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, raised the question of whether, when the Secretary of State is drawing up close seasons for other species, it would be possible to have different seasons for different areas. I give the noble Earl the undertaking that the point will be considered when we come to it. I should like to remind the noble Lord, Lord Lovat, once more that poaching has nothing to do with close seasons. He seems to think that if we bring in the close season sooner, it will prevent people from poaching roe deer. Poaching of roe deer is, I think, adequately dealt with in another part of the Bill. Noble Lords have been pressing me to bring in the close season earlier. There is a very good reason why we cannot do that. Not only do we not know enough about roe and fallow deer, but supposing we fixed a close season for roe deer which proved to be too long, it might mean more damage being done than is being done. That is the reason why we must have sufficient time to investigate this matter fully before bringing in the close season. Therefore cannot agree to the suggestion made by noble Lords.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential upon the previous Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 12, leave out ("the last foregoing subsection") and insert ("subsection (1) of this section or of any order made under subsection (2) of this section").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.23 p.m.
LORD BROCKET LORD BROCKET moved, in subsection (3) to substitute "sixty-one" for "sixty-two." The noble Lord said: My Lords, when I was considering this Amendment, I had consultations as to whether I should delete the word "two" and insert the word "one", but as it refers to a year, we thought that "sixty-one" and "sixty-two" were better. I should like to deal with two specific points. The first is that I know the argument that this is a measure agreed among various authorities who have met in Scotland, et cetera. On that matter, I wish to say that there are people, including myself, who do not like agreed measures, because they affect our rights as legislators. If we are told that we must not move an Amendment because it does away with a certain agreement, I think it is doing away with our rights as legislators. I hope that too much importance will not be given to the "agreed measure" argument if it is used again.
The next point is that on the Committee stage both my noble friend Lord Lovat and I, and other noble Lords, mentioned that the question of a Deer Bill and of close seasons has been discussed in this House since 1952. It is now 1959, seven years later, and I personally feel that if this close season comes into operation in the autumn of 1962 it is a very long time from the original discussion. If people who have to get down the stocks of deer cannot get them down by 1961, I think they must be doing very badly. I am rot using this in any way as an argument for my skill as a shot. Lately I have not shot many stags, but one year I shot over 100. So it is possible that deer can he got down before the autumn of 1961, and I do not think the close season should be postponed until 1962.
In the Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, used the words [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 213 (No. 21), col. 176]:
"I should like to point out that there is no connection between poaching and the close season."
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I am as aware as anyone that poachers, if they aim in the right direction, can shoot stags at any time of the year. They will not be bound, of course, by a close season. But the fact is that it is not so easy to sell pheasants in butchers' shops in April as it is during the season when they are allowed to be shot. The same thing applies to deer. I am quite sure that in Scotland butchers and others would be more loath to receive deer in March, April or May than they would during the proper season when stags and hinds can be shot. In fact, I know that to be the case. It is not correct to say that there is no connection between a close season and poaching.
I feel sincerely that everything should be done to stop poaching. During the war I remember that in a neighbouring forest something like thirty stags were shot in March, which is an appalling thing to do from every point of view. I should like the Government to accept this Amendment. It is a very small thing—it is one year. We may be given the arguments which I have already stated, but it seems to me, and to many people, both in Scotland and in England, that the close season might easily be brought in for the autumn of 1961 instead of 1962. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 25, leave out ("sixty-two") and insert ("sixty-one").—(Lord Brocket.)
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, I should hesitate to come into this discussion at all but for the fact that my noble friend Lord Mathers, if I remember aright, was also in favour of bringing in earlier the operation of the close season. I think his principle was something like this: if it is a good thing to have a close season, then let us have it as quickly as possible. I tended to differ from him, not because I was assuming any principle which affected the position of the legislator, but because of what was said in the Committee Report by the minority section. It appears on page 49, paragraph 3, under the heading, "Close Seasons for Deer." It says:
"On the unqualified question as to whether or not a statutory close season for killing deer should be imposed, the evidence submitted to us by way of written statements, answers to questionnaires and in oral examination was almost equally divided. There were witnesses, however, who, although not opposed to the principle of close seasons, gave it as their opinion that close seasons should not be

589
imposed until the situation had been brought under control. After consideration of all the relevant matters, we are convinced that this view is manifestly fair and reasonable and should be adopted."
It is for that, as I thought, reasonable attitude towards the date of the coming into operation of the close season that I felt myself not to be in agreement with my noble friend Lord Mathers
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, if my noble friend Lord Brocket forces a Division I shall have great pleasure in supporting him. I must return once more to what the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, has said in regard to there being no connection between the close season and poaching. Even during the last Christmas Recess of your Lordships' House more than one lorry load of deer was intercepted by the police—this time I believe in Inverness-shire—and nothing whatever could be done about it. Your Lordships will remember that the strongest case made against these deer murderers—to call them "poachers" would be to employ much too polite a name—is the amount of revolting cruelty that is caused by the destruction of the deer with buckshot or by the firing, of rifles indiscriminately into masses of deer as they bunch together and are terrified.
Unless a close season is brought in, this will continue for the following reasons. Already I am informed that the murderers have made their arrangements. They have got hold of one or more stooges in the shape of the owner or tenant of some large sheep farm on which there may be at times a certain number of deer. When stopped on the roads during the close season they will brightly say that the contents of their lorries were all shot upon such and such a farm, and it will be quite impossible to disprove legally, although everyone will know that the amount of deer alleged to have been shot in one night is probably more than was ever seen on that farm in the course of a whole season. That slaughter will be accompanied by the cruelty to which I have already alluded.
For this reason it is really urgent that a close season should be brought into operation, and once more I would suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, that if he were to accept this Amendment any possible damage by deer that would be occasioned by that acceptance could be avoided by again having areas which it
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would be possible to exclude front the operation of the close season. If, for example, in the county of Sutherland it was shown that deer were doing such damage as to justify their being shot in the close season, if it were possible for the Secretary of State to make an order excluding that county from the provisions of the close season, everybody would be satisfied and we should avoid the massacres accompanied by cruelty which will inevitably take place. It is for that reason that I support the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Brocket, and I hope, even now, that the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, will be able to give us some satisfaction.
LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL: My Lords, like all your Lordships. I am all in favour of bringing the close season into operation as soon as possible, but there is a great deal more work to be done before that time becomes possible. This Bill has been for more than two months going through your Lordships' House, and it is not finished yet. It then has to go to another place and then come back to your Lordships again. The noble Lord, Lord Brocket, is anxious that your Lordships' legislative powers should not be interfered with, and I am sure there should be no possible question of making any appointments to the Red Deer Commission until this Bill becomes an Act. Therefore the time that will elapse after this Bill is finally passed until the date this clause comes into operation will not be the two-and-a-bit years that it is now. I think it is most important that everything should be completely organised and arranged before the close season starts.
My noble friend, Lord Mansfield, made two points with which I do not think I can entirely agree. The prevention of the slaughter which he talked about surely depends entirely on the quick passing of this Bill entirely divorced from the close season. I was going to come to that on a later Amendment. I am assured, on the best authority, that the chief constables concerned are quite satisfied that as soon as this Bill is passed they will have power to deal with the exact situation which my noble friend talked about, the lorries filled with carcases. As regards close seasons in different areas, I think if one has a close season it must cover the whole of Scotland and not be spotted about;

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otherwise there are all sorts of loopholes for evasion. If it does come to a Division I will certainly support the Government on this Amendment.
LORD LOVAT: My Lords, in supporting the noble Lord, Lord Brocket, I hope he will carry this matter to a conclusion, because, as he has already said, since 1952 some of the Scottish Members of your Lordships' House have been advocating the close season for deer, and in 1959 we see the Government proposing to shelve the matter for another three years, according to my calculations. I simply cannot understand why this matter cannot be worked out in a year to eighteen months, as the noble Lord, Lord Brocket, suggested. With the greatest respect to the Minister, I say that he is wrong in supposing that lack of close seasons and poaching do not go hand in hand; of course they do. I would ask him what the Secretary of State for Scotland has been doing with his fact-finding commission which has been counting the number of deer in Scotland. I have personally lent two of my best stalkers. They have been counting for three years now. They ought to have a good idea as to what parts of the country are stocked, under-stocked or over-stocked. It is absurd to suggest that in 1963 or 1965 the situation that deer overflow into areas where they should not be found is going to be changed. Something fairly drastic is needed to get this thing started. It is absolutely no good postponing the overall plans simply in order to agree to a date which suits all interests. I think the deer forest owners who might be criticised as having too many deer on their ground would almost all agree that the quicker this is done the better. A good many of the nomadic deer I know in my part of Scotland are owned by public authorities.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND
FERRARD: My Lords, I should like to support this Amendment. We are told there are 100,000 red deer in Scotland. We are also told that we cannot have a close season, before 1962 because of the excessive numbers of deer in Scotland. In Scotland they have 8 million sheep and 1¾ million cattle. Does anybody seriously think that if you had every deer in Scotland destroyed, if that
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were possible, you could really graze more sheep or cattle? In the terms of the agricultural economy it would make no difference at all. I cannot help feeling that all through these negotiations on deer protection, the Black Faced Breeders' Association, no doubt unwittingly, have rather exaggerated to the Government the nuisance value of the red deer in Scotland, because, after all, the deer forest owners in Scotland are the greatest owners of black-faced sheep. I myself am a very substantial breeder. The Black Faced Breeders' Association never asked me my opinion, nor, as far as I am aware, the opinion of any other deer forest owners who have black-faced sheep.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, all I want to say is that I think all the arguments are in favour of bringing this clause into operation at the earliest possible moment, certainly by 1961. Therefore, if the noble Lord cares to go to a Division I shall have very much pleasure in supporting him.
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: My Lords, could it be explained to the House just why it must take until 1962 to clear off all these surplus deer? It has never been explained to us yet.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, might I begin by answering the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, who suggested that the one way to stop poaching was to bring in close seasons. The one way to stop poaching is to get this Bill through and get the poaching provisions made law. It is the poaching provisions of this Bill which are going to stop poaching, and not the close seasons. The Government are fully in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, about bringing in close seasons as soon as possible, but surely it is reasonable to expect that it may take up to three years before control schemes can be established in some areas. That is why we have selected 1962 as the most appropriate year. Undoubtedly, before these control schemes are set up, the Commission will have to carry out a considerable amount of investigation and surveying to establish where they should first direct their activities. There may be some areas that need little attention, but there may be other areas to which the Commission will have to give a great deal of their time. Noble Lords have

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tended to suggest that owners could quite easily reduce their stocks by 1961. I must point out that we know that a considerable reduction is required, and if this problem could have been dealt with as easily as noble Lords are trying to make out, then there would have been no deer problem at all and we should not have had a Deer (Scotland) Bill. Because of that I cannot accept this Amendment.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, may I rise to make one appeal, in view of the expressed intention of noble Lords to force this Amendment to a Division? To avoid that kind of step, we would ask the Government (because this Bill has to go to another place) to give us an assurance that they will give serious consideration to the full expressions of opinion made here this afternoon.
LORD FORBES: I can certainly give that assurance, if it is of any help to the House.
LORD LOVAT: If I may speak once more, the Minister did not in fact answer my question about the count of deer going on for three years.
LORD FORBES: I am sorry I did not reply to the noble Lord's question. My reply is that that, count is still incomplete.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, I should like to support this Amendment. Certainly from my experience—and I know the power, velocity, accuracy and rapidity of the modern rifle in the hands of a stalker—it is possible quite quickly to kill a large number of deer in the ordinary open season. During the war, when it was decided to cut down, one stalker, single-handed, would kill six, seven or eight stags per day. It is perfectly easy if that is the intention behind the shoot. Therefore, I should like to support the Amendment. May I make what might possibly be a compromise suggestion—namely, that in another place the Government should insert a permissive power to bring in this close season in 1960 instead of 1962, if they thought that progress being made with regard to the control schemes justified that course? I put forward that suggestion as a compromise.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, I am rather worried at the moment to know which way to exercise my vote,
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should I be called upon to do so. Noble Lords who have spoken have laid great stress on the point that ever since the year 1952 they have desired to bring in close seasons. It seems to me that during all these years they have had an opportunity to reduce the stock of deer in their forests. Whether anything of that kind has been done, I do not know, if it had, as my noble friend the Minister has said, there would have been no problem existing at the present time.
But that apart, it seems to me that we are making a terrific fuss about very little. With all deference to noble Lords who have spoken, I cannot help saying that to make all this song about one year really is carrying things to extreme limits. It seems to me a great mistake that we should make this fuss and bother. I have no sympathy with those who say that agreements made outside this House should carry this House with them on every occasion. On the other hand, as I ventured to suggest on Second Reading of the Bill, I think we should be careful to think about the Amendments we put down from that point of view. I really cannot see what great advantage is to be gained from accepting this Amendment and perhaps upsetting the course of the Bill in another place. Whilst I am still doubtful about the situation, certainly my inclination is to support the Government on this matter.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, cannot another place take it out should they so desire?
LORD BROCKET: My Lords, I listened with interest to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, who thought that this was a very small matter. If it is such a small matter, I hope that before we divide the Government will give way. Otherwise, I feel that I should not withdraw my Amendment.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, would the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, answer the point that I made—namely, that consideration should be given to inserting in another place a permissive power to bring this forward a year if the control schemes proceed satisfactorily? If the noble Lord could answer that point, then perhaps we should not have to vote on this.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I cannot give an undertaking as to what is to be done in another place.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Transpose Clause 20 to after Clause 21 as Part 11—Close Seasons.—(Lord Forbes.)
Clause 21 [Interpretation of Part 1]:
4.50 p.m.
VISCOUNT MA SSEREENE AND FERRARD VISCOUNT MA SSEREENE AND FERRARD moved to add to the definition of "agricultural land":
"Provided that in relation to any unenclosed land of which the only use for agriculture is as grazing land such land shall not be deemed to be agricultural land unless it is used continuously throughout the year for grazing sheep to the extent of at least one ewe for every three acres thereof."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to try to define unenclosed agricultural land as it applies to this Bill. For the purposes of the Bill agricultural land is defined as agricultural land within the meaning of the Agriculture (Scotland) Act, 1948. Under the Act, of course, any land on which a domestic animal grazes is classed
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 41; Not-Contents, 35.

CONTENTS

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Amwell, L.

Ebury, L.

Moyne, L.

Ashton of Hyde, L.

Elibank, V.

Newall, L.

Astor, V.

Geddes, L.

Portal of Hungerford, V.

Atholl, D.

Greenhill, L.

Shepherd, L.

Birdwood, L.

Haddington, E.

Stonham, L.

Brentford, V.

Henderson, L.

Strathcarron, L.

Brocket, L. [Teller.]

Jessel, L.

Taylor, L.

Carnock, L.

Killearn, L.

Teynham, L.

Cholmondeley, M.

Latham, L.

Thurlow, L.

Chorley, L.

Lovat, L. [Tellers.]

Williams, L.

Congleton, L.

Lucan, E.

Willingdon, M.

Denham, L.

Macpherson of Drumochter, L.

Winster, L.

Derwent, L.

Mansfield, E.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailsa, M.

Forbes, L.

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Allerton, L.

Gosford, E.

Perth, E.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Bathurst, E.

Hastings, L.

St. Just, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Hatherton, L.

Salisbury, M.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Hawke, L.

Selborne, E.

Chesham, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Soulbury, V.

Clitheroe, L.

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Strathclyde, L.

Colyton, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Stratheden and Campbell, L.

Dulverton, L.

Margesson, V.

Swinton, E.

Dundee, E.

Melchett, L.

Tenby, V.

Elliot of Harwood, Baroness.

Merrivale, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

as agricultural land. Since the great majority of deer ground in Scotland grazes sheep or cattle at some period of the year, such a wide definition surely virtually gives the Red Deer Commission power to exterminate all deer.
It all depends, of course, on how the Commission decides what is damage or, as Clause 6 says:
"causing substantial damage to pasture".
There is no doubt that the Commission will be reasonable and knowledgeable men, but I am afraid of the future. I fear that perhaps, ten or fifteen years hence, we may have working for the Commission on these panels people who will argue that if a deer is eating grass or heather—as it has to, for it cannot eat anything else—it is taking grass or heather from sheep and therefore causing damage to the pasture. In saying that agricultural land ought to be defined as such if it is used to the extent of grazing one ewe for every three acres I have probably made rather a narrow margin, but I feel that we ought to have some better definition than that under the Agriculture (Scotland) Act, 1948, because under that Act if one has 1,000 acres of rock and one goat upon it the land becomes agricultural land—which is absurd.

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if Her Majesty's Government would agree to regard as agricultural land only land grazing at least one ewe to every five or six acres that would be something. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 29, at end insert the said proviso.—(Viscount Massereene and Ferrard.)
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, this Amendment is well-intentioned, but I am afraid that I cannot agree with it as it regards as "agricultural land" only land of such quality that one ewe is carried to three acres. That would apply, I have no doubt, to the noble Viscount's land in Mull, for Mull is very fertile, as are my sheep farms in Perthshire. But for some years past I have studied with care, from an interest point of view, the advertisements of sheep farms for sale that have appeared in the Scottish agricultural Press; and, except for the rather unusually fertile parts of the country, it is my experience that the number of acres per ewe is more like four or five, and frequently more than three. The acceptance of this Amendment would be to rule out of "agricultural land" a considerable number of good sheep farms. I am afraid there is no doubt whatever about that. Therefore, I regret that I cannot recommend its acceptance to your Lordships.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I appreciate the noble Viscount's desire to try to ensure that the Commission do not kill red deer on ground which is purely deer forest ground and ground where deer have been long established. I would just point out that this Amendment can apply only to Clause 6, the clause dealing with marauding deer, as it is only in Clause 6 that the words "agricultural land" appear. While it is true that stocking on rough ground in Scotland is, on an average, probably one ewe to every three acres, there are many places in Scotland, especially in the Highlands, where the stocking is far nearer to one ewe to every six acres. The effect of this Amendment would be to exclude any action being taken under Clause 6 to most of the agricultural land in the Highlands. To that we could not agree. One ewe to an acre is, I am afraid, an impossible yardstick. I can only recommend to your Lordships that we rely on the good sense of the Commission in this case. I cannot accept the Amendment.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: My Lords, in view of what the Minister has said, that he relies on the good sense of the Commission, I would say that I hope that good sense will prevail for ever and ever. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 25 [Unlawful possession of deer and firearms]:
5.5 p.m.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I think that we can take Amendments Nos. 24, 25 and 27 together. These Amendments merely extend the provisions of Clause 25, concerning unlawful possession, and Clause 26, concerning attempts to commit offences, to deer of any species during the close season. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 10, line 18, leave out ("section twenty") and insert ("Part II or of any order made thereunder")
Page 10, line 33, leave out ("section twenty") and insert ("Part Ill or of any order made thereunder")
Page 11, line 2, leave out ("section twenty") and insert ("Part II or any order made thereunder").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 26. This is merely a drafting Amendment concerning the rearrangement of clauses.
Amendment moved—
Clauses 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 and 32 to be called Part IV—"Enforcement and Procedure".—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause, 26 [Attempts to commit offences]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this is another consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 2, leave out ("this Part") and insert ("Part 111").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
5.8 p.m.
VISCOUNT ASTOR VISCOUNT ASTOR moved, after Clause 26 to insert the following new clause:
"As to appointment of special constables
.—(1) Subject to the conditions hereinafter set forth any sheriff or sheriff substitute may on the application of the Commission appoint

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all or so many as they think fit of the persons recommended to them for that purpose by the Commission to act as constables for the purposes of this Act in and in the vicinity of such localities as may be specified in the instrument of appointment and the following provisions shall apply to every appointment so made:—

(a) every person so appointed shall make oath or declaration in due form of law before any sheriff or sheriff substitute having jurisdiction in any one of the counties, cities or burghs in which such person is to act duly to execute the office of a constable;

(b) every person so appointed and having been sworn or having made declaration as aforesaid shall, during the continuance of his appointment, have in relation to the exercise of the functions of a constable under this Act in and in the vicinity of the locality for which he has been appointed all the powers, protection and privileges of a constable in respect of the exercise of his duties;

(c) any sheriff or sheriff substitute or the Commission may dismiss from his office or accept the resignation of any constable so appointed and thereupon all powers, protection and privileges belonging to such person by virtue of such appointment shall wholly cease;

(d) no person so dismissed or resigning shall he capable of being reappointed except with the consent of the authority by whom he was dismissed or by whom his resignation was accepted;

(e) the police authority of any area shall not be liable for any expense of or be responsible for any acts or defaults of such constables or for anything connected with or consequent upon their appointment and nothing in this Act shall restrict or affect the jurisdiction or powers of any such police authority or of any police force under their control;

(f) a person appointed as aforesaid shall not act as a constable under the authority of this Act unless he be in uniform or provided with an authority to act as such which authority the sheriff or sheriff substitute before whom such person makes oath or declaration as aforesaid is hereby empowered to grant and if the constable be not in uniform he shall show such authority whenever called upon to do so.

(2) In this section the expression "police authority" has the meaning assigned to it by section 12 of the Police (Scotland) Act, 1946."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is an Amendment to meet the objections which were made on the one I ventured to put forward on Committee stage, dealing with the enforcement of the Bill in remote areas of the Highlands and Islands. I believe that many noble Lords have little idea of the actual problems in preventing poaching in those areas, of the tremendous distances involved, of the fewness of the police on the ground, of the speed with which
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poachers can move by car and of their great mobility. I gave an example of an area of 150,000 acres which was 30 miles long and which has no policemen on it whatever; yet it has four deer forests which have been frequently poached in the past. It seems to me that the obvious solution is to apply the same principle as we have with a water bailiff. That has worked for many years perfectly satisfactorily and it had the approval of the Government of noble Lords opposite when a measure was brought in for salmon. The same principle should be applied to deer.
I was told that the only argument the Government put forward is: "It is a new idea, it is a new principle, and we cannot do anything new". My Lords, if we had accepted that argument we should not have this Bill at all. The whole thing is new. If you will the end, you have to will the means to do it, if you are sincere in wishing to get it in force. A similar thing has been done in respect of so many other enactments. You create a new offence in the setting up of a monopoly, and the new machinery of a Monopolies Tribunal is established to deal with it. You create new offences of speeding, and the police have to be provided with motor cycles to deal with them. There has to be a completely new arrangement in order to enforce the law. One cannot say that the machinery can never be changed in order to enforce a new law.
Therefore, my Lords, I had this Amendment drafted so that we could have a discussion on using special constables in Scotland in a similar way to that in which they can be used in England. Now, I know that the objection will be put up that Scottish special constables are very tender plants who can turn out only in case of war, and that they cannot turn out to help control traffic or to do any of the many other things which special is stables can do in England. This s an attempt to begin the change so that special constables in Scotland can be enrolled and can have these powers. They would work under the chief constable, with proper discipline, proper uniform and proper training, so that it would not be a case of putting powers of arrest merely into the hands of private people but into the hands of people who would be under the control of the chief constable of the county.
If we do not have this, or some other equivalent way of enforcing the law, there is a grave danger that this Act will become a dead letter in the remote parts of the Highlands and Islands. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, when we discussed this matter before, said that even if the poachers get away in a motor boat it is difficult to land. My Lords, it is perfectly easy to land deer from a boat. You just throw them in the water and pull them in by a rope to the shore, or you throw them in at high tide and collect them at low tide. The operation is perfectly easy, and it can be done anywhere. The idea that the police have the ability and the numbers to enforce this Act is really totally unrealistic, and I hope that the Government will, in another place, either consider the appointment of deer bailiffs or, if they do not, will give serious consideration to the extension of the powers governing the use of special constables in Scotland. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 26, insert the said new Clause.—(Viscount Astor.)
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I think that this is purely a practical matter. How is the Bill, when it becomes an Act, to be made to operate in areas such as those to which the noble Viscount has referred? Take Jura, for instance; there is no policeman there at all. On the mainland opposite Jura, which I know, there is one policeman who has an area of about 200 square miles, in which there is a telephone here or there. How is the Act going to operate in those areas unless some such Amendment as is proposed by the noble Viscount is made? Will the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, when he replies, say how this Act will operate in Jura, which is an island that we know very well? If the noble Lord will answer that question and will show us how it can operate there and in other places in Scotland where, over huge areas of country, the police hardly exist at all, then that might bring some satisfaction in its train.
I do not think there is anything in the argument that because special constables in Scotland have not been used in this particular way before they should not be so used now. After all, we are dealing with a new problem here, and we may have to adopt means not inimical at all to the liberty of the sub-
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ject. If the suggestions of the noble Viscount were inimical to the liberty of the subject, I should be against them from start to finish, but I do not think that these suggestions, with all the precautions and safeguards which the noble Viscount suggests, would be inimical to the liberty of the subject. But I do think that they would, if adopted, meet an evil which must otherwise exist. I support the noble Viscount's Amendment.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, although I am in complete agreement with everything that has been said by both my noble friends, I cannot support this Amendment because it would introduce a considerable constitutional change in the position of the police applied to one subject only. As I mentioned to your Lordships during the Committee stage, it is a regrettable fact that special constables in Scotland, unlike their counterparts in England, cannot be employed save in times of national emergency—not quite only in war, as the noble Viscount said, because I myself became a special constable during the General Strike of 1926, but there has to be what is described as "a national emergency." May I say, as obiter dictum, that it is my intention later this year to ask your Lordships to pass a Motion calling for an alteration in that position but until it is so altered by legislation, thus making it possible for special constables to be used in Scotland on a variety of suitable occasions, I do not think it would be appropriate, nor do I think it would be constitutional, for there to be included in this measure a provision which would make it possible to use special constables merely for the purpose of preventing poaching or shooting out of season and not for any other purpose.
LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL: My Lords, in the light of the very strong arguments put forward by my noble friend Lord Mansfield, I also feel unable to support this Amendment. The two difficulties to the police which my noble friend Lord Astor stressed—the large distances and the speed of the motors used by the poachers—would apply equally to special constables, if it were possible to enrol them. You could never have enough. But there is one further thing that makes it perfectly possible to bring this Bill completely into operation. The roads from the very

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remote areas all converge on to the markets which it is essential that the deer should reach after they have been killed, and I am assured, on what I consider to be very good authority indeed, that the chief constables concerned are completely satisfied that if they have the powers given them under this Bill they will be able to do a great deal to stop poaching, without any recourse to novel measures such as are suggested in this Amendment.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, I, too, have the feeling that this Amendment will not serve the purpose that the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, intends it to serve. My feeling is that we are playing on what we know to be the very deep and widespread feeling against the poaching by gangs and the cruelty inflicted upon the animals that they shoot. At the same time, we must also bear in mind that this Bill is primarily a conservation Bill. Inevitably it will mean a reduction in the stock of deer in Scotland and, one hopes, a better distribution and a better result in quality. If it is thought that by emphasising the cruelty which is almost inseparable from poaching one can introduce such a provision as the Amendment proposes, I think that it stresses wrongly the nature of the problem with which we are trying to deal.
On the 14th of this month there appeared in the Glasgow Herald what I think is a reasonable statement on this question made by Mr. W. B. Swanston, who is convener of the legal and commercial committee of the National Farmers' Union of Scotland. He said that some farmers had mistakenly regarded the Deer (Scotland) Bill as being nothing more than a Bill to stop poaching, whereas it went very much further. The part of the Bill dealing with poaching had a romantic appeal and on that account fired the imagination. One of the major sections, however, was designed to bring about more effective control of the deer population as a whole, to reduce their numbers to reasonable proportions and to restrict their activity, especially out with the deer forests. He went on to say:
"This is a sensible approach to a problem that has been with them for a long time and it would be in the long run recognised as the best means of protection for all concerned."
I feel that that statement sets out, in very reasonable terms, the exact purposes of
604
this Bill. It is primarily intended to improve and conserve the stock of deer in Scotland and, secondly, to deal with what we all admit is a wicked traffic, the gang poaching of deer for illicit gain. None of us, I imagine, would do anything to encourage that sort of thing. At the same time, do not let us exaggerate the incidence of gang poaching and its effect on the deer population as a whole.
I am tempted to add that if an individual occasionally poached a deer, not for the market but for his own use, and divided the carcase amongst his friends, I doubt whether anyone would strongly condemn him. Do not let Its exaggerate the evil so as to make the operation of the Bill difficult by asking for some kind of special protective agent, or by arguing that the appointment of special constables is the appropriate way to prevent an admitted evil. Let us keep the whole thing in balance and see that the important part of the Bill is balanced with what is secondary.
LORD LOVAT: My Lords, I have little to add, except to say how much I sympathise with the noble Viscount, Lord Astor. All owners of island deer forests have been sorely persecuted by wholesale poaching but, as the noble Lord, Lord Stratheden and Campbell, has said, every county council police committee would assure the House, if they were asked, that, given powers, they could deal with the situation. Special constables or sworn-in bailiffs would have only one effect: they would cause bloodshed. Because these poaching gangs are quite prepared to heat up a man in civilian clothes or in uniform which is worn only for the occasion. As I emphasised on Committee stage, it is not only deer that are poached. A gang sets out in a truck armed with rifles to shoot what they can find, and one stalker is not going to stop them. He would be far better concealed with a telescope to get the number of the car and pass it back to the police at the road at the end of the glen, who can deal with them on the way to the market. I hope that the noble Viscount will withdraw this Amendment which, frankly, smacks a little of feudalism. There are too many deer in Scotland—I think we ought all to agree about that.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I am grateful to all the noble Lords who have spoken against this Amendment. First of all, I should like to take up the point raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank. Admittedly there must be a number of cases of poaching on islands where it is difficult to get the police and where the offenders make off before the police get to the spot. But if these gangs are going to benefit from their poaching—and I do not think, with the penalties there are now for poaching, that they will do it for fun—they must get the carcases to where they can sell them. That means that they must be able to get them into a vehicle and on the road. Surely it is on the road that the police are going to catch the offenders. So far there has been little difficulty in intercepting offenders. During the last two years the police have intercepted over 100. The difficulty has been that of taking effective action after the offenders have been intercepted.
The suggestion that we should make stalkers into policemen means that we should expect them to carry out the duties of the police. Surely this is quite unfair. For example, there would be no means of compensating stalkers in the event of their deaths. It would be placing too much responsibility on their shoulders. This Amendment has been seen by the Chief Constables' Association of Scotland, and I can say that they are unanimously opposed to it. They pointed out that an Amendment such as this is almost hound to lead to violence, as the poachers themselves will be armed. As has already been said, the most sensible thing that a stalker can do, if he sees a poacher, is to keep out of sight and make for the nearest telephone to warn the police. The Government are convinced that the keeping of the law should be left to the police, who are recruited and trained especially for this purpose. I cannot accept the Amendment.
LORD BROCKET: My Lords, before the noble Viscount either withdraws his Amendment or otherwise, I should like to support the Government. From my experience on the West Coast, where I have my deer forest, I know that the police can usually find where the boats come into port—at the Kyle of Lochalsh or at Mallaig or wherever it may be—and I think that the law as it is under the terms of this Bill should work satisfactorily. If it tines not, then perhaps an Amendment
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could be made. I have much pleasure in supporting the Government.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, in view of the fact that the Chief Constables' Association are against me, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 28 [Apprehension of offenders]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on placing Clauses 26 to 30 and Clause 32 in a separate Part of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 40, after ("provisions") insert ("of Part III or").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29 [Forfeitures]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment is also consequential on making the close season and poaching provisions into separate Parts of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 43, leave out from the beginning to ("of") where that word first occurs and insert ("Part II of this Act or any order made thereunder or against Part III").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this is another consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 3, leave out ("this Part") and insert ("Part III").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 31 [Interpretation of Part II]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the splitting of the poaching and enforcement provisions of the Bill into Parts III and IV respectively. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 16, leave out ("this Part") and insert ("Parts III, and IV")—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I beg to move the next Amendment standing in my name. Again it is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Transpose Clause 31 to after Clause 32, and that Part III become Part V.—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 32 [Offences by bodies corporate]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the provision in Clause 20 for the fixing of close seasons by order. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 33, after ("Act") insert ("or any order made thereunder").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 33 [Saving for certain acts]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, perhaps I can take Amendments Nos. 36 and 39 together. These Amendments give exemption to shooting of deer of all species in cases of wounded or suffering deer. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 6, after ("Act") insert ("or any order made thereunder").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 13, after ("Act") insert ("or any order made thereunder").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I will take Amendments Nos. 37 and 38 together. These Amendments have the effect of giving the person having the right to kill deer certain exemptions from the close season provisions. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 13, line 10, after ("of") where that word secondly occurs insert ("or at the request of the")
after ("Commission") insert ("in pursuance of subsection (2) of section six of this Act").—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 34 [Application of Act to the Crown]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment provides for the making of statutory instruments and for revoking orders. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 25, leave out subsection (2) and insert the following new clause—
("Orders, Regulations, etc.
.—(1) Any order or regulations made under this Act shall be embodied in a statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution by either House of Parliament.
(2) Any order made under this Act may be varied or revoked by a subsequent order made in the like manner.")—(Lord Forbes.)
On Question. Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule [Provisions as to the Red Deer Commission]:
LORD FORBES: My Lords, this Amendment enables the Red Deer Commission to regulate the procedure of panels. This has the advantage of being flexible. The Commission can, if necessary, adjust the rules of procedure according to the circumstances of each panel. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 40, at end insert ("and that of any panel appointed by them.").—(Lord Forbes.)
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, I
should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, for this Amendment, which meets a point put forward in Committee. I want to thank him, too, for the very reasonable way in which he has accepted many Amendments put forward to the Bill. I hope he agrees that we have done nothing to impede or slow its progress, but that we have done all we can to improve it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

  PRICE OF SMALL COAL
  PRICE OF SMALL COAL
  SCOTTISH ELECTRICITY BOARDS AND LOCAL RATES
  SCOTTISH ELECTRICITY BOARDS AND LOCAL RATES