Sitting of 26 February 1959

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
NEW WRIT
For Belfast, East, in room of Lieut.-Colonel Alan John McKibbin, O.B.E., deceased.—[Mr. Heath.]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  MID-WESSEX WATER BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
BUCKS WATER BOARD BILL (By Order)
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Monday next.
SOUTH DERBYSHIRE WATER BILL (By Order)
  SOUTH DERBYSHIRE WATER BOARD BILL (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 12th March.
PORT OF LONDON BILL (By Order)
Read a Second time and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  CIVIL DEFENCE

    Evacuation
    Mr. Zilliacusasked (1) the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now indicate an approximate date by which the discussions with the local authorities' associations about civil defence evacuation policy, which he informed the hon. Member for Gorton, on 21st November, 1957, were proceeding, will be completed and when he expects to be able to make the statement he indicated he would be prepared to make on their completion;
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    (2) whether, in view of rocket developments since 21st November, 1957, the Government are still basing their civil defence policy on the assumption, as explained by him in answer to the hon. Member for Gorton on that date, that there will be long enough advance notice of the outbreak of hostilities to enable it to evacuate 12 million people.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what progress has been made in the revision of civil defence evacuation plans since the decision to establish rocket bases in various parts of the country.
    Mr. Mikardoasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his discussions about civil defence evacuation policy with the local authorities' associations, announced by him in reply to the hon. Member for Gorton on 21st November, 1957, have as yet included discussions with East Anglian local authorities as to the advisability of making this an evacuation area, in view of the presence of rocket and bomber bases; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. S. Silvermanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what progress has now been made in co-ordinating with the Ministry of Defence his plans for evacuation in the event of war, having regard to the inevitability of limiting defence against air attack to air bases, and in view of his re-examination of these questions with the local authorities.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): I have no further statement to make at present, since as I informed the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, North East (Mr. Baird), on 19th February, the Government are re-examining the proposals for evacuation which were discussed with representatives of the local authority associations so as to ensure that all the relevant factors are taken fully into consideration.
    Mr. Zilliacus: Has not a very long time elapsed since the right hon. Gentleman announced that these discussions were in progress? Can he not indicate even an approximate date? Are these discussions merely for the book, or are they seriously intended to arrive at some conclusion?
    Mr. Butler: The first stage of discussions was with certain local authority associations. Now we are at the stage of the Government examining the position, and later we shall have to consider it with specific local authorities or with the associations again. I do not think there has been any undue delay.
    Mr. Swingler: Is there any purpose to be served by throwing dust into people's eyes about the nature of these discussions? Did not the Minister of Defence say on 11th February:
    "… we could not honestly say to the people of this country that in the present state of scientific knowledge there is any effective means of defending the country as a whole"? —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th February, 1959; Vol. 599, c. 1174.]
    As it is undoubtedly the fact that the Minister of Defence bases his policy on a threat to initiate nuclear war in certain circumstances, would the Home Secretary say what his attitude is to this situation?
    Mr. Butler: I am aware of the reply made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) on the date to which the hon. Member refers, but this does not mean that much could not be done to mitigate the effect of a nuclear attack on the civil population as a whole. Civil defence is an integral part of defence plans, and, as this year's Defence White Paper says, no major change is contemplated in the structure or the rôle of civil defence. That is the position and we should make a great mistake in thinking that civil defence has no important part to play in helping to allay the anxiety of the population and, if there were an emergency, to deal with that emergency.
    Mr. Silverman: While no one would expect the hon. Member to tell us, in advance of the negotiations, what the result of the consultations is likely to be, can he tell us upon what principle a review is taking place, having regard to the perfectly clear and frank statements of the Minister of Defence, already referred to? If we are only going to defend air bases, can the Home Secretary say whether the population is to be evacuated to the air bases or whether the air bases are to be evacuated to the population?
    Mr. Butler: If things were as simple or as whimsical as the hon. Member puts them, there would be no reason for taking
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    this matter seriously. One of the reasons why the review is necessary is that it would be very lacking in sense if evacuation took place to a vulnerable area of the kind suggested by the hon. Member. It is precisely for that reason that we are having a review of the whole scheme in order to bring it thoroughly up to date.

    Civil Defence Exercises, Preston, Birmingham and Leeds
    Mr. W. Griffithsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many of the 50 hydrogen bombs assumed, in the civil defence exercises conducted on 11th May in Preston, Birmingham, and Leeds, to have been dropped in this country, were assumed to have been hydrogen bombs of from one to five megatons, how many of from five to 10 megatons, and how many of 10 megatons or over.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Miss Patricia Hornsby-Smith): In this long and widespread exercise only a proportion of the weapons were assumed to be in the megaton range. No bombs were assumed to be of from one to five megatons; 18 bombs were of less than 10 megatons, and 13 bombs were assumed to exceed this size.
    Mr. Griffiths: Is the hon. Lady aware that if there is one thing upon which the scientific experts agree in this matter it is that if six bombs in the 10 megaton range were dropped on densely populated areas about 10 million deaths would result and an area 10 miles across would be made desolate? What is the sense of trying to make people believe that the Home Office is serious about civil defence in the light of knowledge of this kind?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: I do not entirely accept what the hon. Member says. The effect produced by any given weight of attack would depend upon many variable factors, such as the weather and the wind, especially in relation to fall-out. Most important, it would depend upon the extent of the preparations made in advance, and to that end civil defence would play an absolutely vital part.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Can the hon. Lady say what area of the country was estimated to be totally devastated in this exercise.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: Not without notice.

    Expenditure
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the total sum of money spent on civil defence since the date when Her Majesty's Government first announced their intention of retaliating with nuclear weapons against any form of major aggression; and what guidance he has given to local authorities about the way in which this money should be spent.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The estimated net defence expenditure by Civil Departments is shown in Annex III to the Annual Defence Statistics. As regards local authorities, their primary civil defence function has been the training and organisation of the civil defence services for which they are responsible, and they have been given full guidance to assist them in carrying out this most important duty.
    Mr. Swingler: Everyone would agree that reasonable preparations should be made. Would the Home Secretary agree that we must ensure that people should not be grossly misled about the nature of the dangers that beset them or the capacity to prepare defence measures against nuclear weapons? Will he give an assurance that no money will be spent on ridiculous exercises presuming that 10 megaton bombs are falling on the country and devastating civilised life?
    Mr. Butler: On this very difficult question of civil defence, the most cheering feature is the responsible attitude of local authorities, and of those who serve the local authorities, which we have found all over the country. I should not like to say anything that did not give them encouragement, and I certainly would not wish to do anything which did not show how much we appreciate what they are doing.

    Pamphlet
    Mr. S. Silvermanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will revise the instructions in the 1956 pamphlet on Radio-Active Fallout, No. 2 of Volume I, of the Civil Defence Manual, relating to protection by staying indoors, washing vegetables, etc., to cover the contingency of radioactive fall-out occurring in areas where windows have been shattered and walls
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    and roofs fractured by blast, and where water supplies have been radio-actively contaminated or communications interrupted.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: If a nuclear attack took place, the areas affected by radioactive fall-out would be likely to be much greater in extent than those affected by blast. The pamphlet on public control under radioactive fall-out did not purport to deal with areas which had sustained extensive physical damage, and no revision of the kind suggested is called for.
    Mr. Silverman: Having regard to what has been repeatedly admitted about the utter defencelessness of the civil population of this country in the event of nuclear war, would the hon. Lady explain to the House what is the use of talking now about protection by staying indoors and washing vegetables? Does not she consider, on reflection, that this whole business is nothing but a cold, callous, cruel fraud practised on the people of this country?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: I am sure that over half a million people who are doing such noble service in the civil defence services do not share the hon. Gentleman's view. Wherever any incident occurred there would be a very wide perimeter where people could be aided and saved and where the work of a civil defence organisation which was ready to go into action could save many millions of lives.
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he has taken to bring up to date and relate to nuclear rocket developments the section on preparedness and public education in the pamphlet on Radio-Active Fall-Out, published in 1956, as part of Volume 1 of the Civil Defence Manual.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: The assumptions made in this section are not invalidated by nuclear rocket developments.
    Mr. Warbey: Will the hon. Lady agree that what matters is that the public should be properly educated and not deluded, and in view of the statement on Government military policy, reaffirmed by the Minister of Defence yesterday, will she consider issuing as part of a policy of public education a leaflet to all householders telling them that in certain circumstances the Government's policy is

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    that they should be required to commit mass suicide?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: The hon. Gentleman's comments could hardly be less helpful to civil defence. As to the first part of his supplementary question, there has been a steady development of public education in the facts about the H-bomb and the precautions that can be taken. Among the publications that have been put out have been the H-bomb booklet and the pamphlet,"Home Defence and the Farmer". I cannot repudiate too strongly the suggestions either that we have not put the facts before the public or that civil defence would not make a very great contribution in time of emergency.

    Warning System
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has to bring up to date the warning system, outlined in pamphlet No. 2 of Volume 1 of the Civil Defence Manual published in 1956, providing for a fall-out warning system supplementary to an attack warning system, in order to relate both to rocket developments.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: The warning system is being kept abreast of modern developments.
    Mr. Warbey: In view of the fact that the warning of a nuclear rocket attack would be at the maximum six minutes and probably less, surely it is nonsense to continue talking about attempting to protect the majority of the civil population of this country when in fact they would be smothered in a deadly blanket of radioactive fall-out within a few minutes of the attack?
    Captain Pilkington: Is not the defeatist attitude of some hon. Members of the party opposite very deplorable?
    Mr. Silverman: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When the hon. and gallant Gentleman intervened with his frivolity the hon. Lady was about to answer my hon. Friend's supplementary question. Can she now be allowed to answer it?
    Mr. Speaker: I did not know that she was. I was looking for the hon. Lady to rise, but I did not see her rise.
    Mr. Warbey: As the hon. Lady is unable to answer my previous Question, will she now answer Question No. 19?

    Casualties
    Mr. Zilliacusasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to what extent, in view of the Government's recognition of the impossibility of defending the civil population and their policy of trying to defend only air and rocket bases against nuclear attack, his civil defence policy includes measures for disposing of the dead and mortally wounded, especially in the large towns, industrial centres, and areas contiguous to rocket and air bases; and what is the nature of these measures.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The Government's policy as regards air defence was restated by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence in reply to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) on 11th February. My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Health has developed plans, in consultation with the regional hospital boards, for dealing with casualties, as an extension of the peacetime hospital services, and these, together with other aspects of the Government's civil defence plans designed to mitigate the effects of nuclear attack, must take priority.
    Mr. Zilliacus: While appreciating, as the right hon. Gentleman said in reply to an earlier Question, that the purpose of civil defence is largely to allay the anxieties of the population, is it not the fact that the Government's policy is to resort to nuclear weapons against a major attack on any allied country by conventional arms without any attempt to defend the civil population against the consequences of that policy? Will not the Government make clear the measures they propose to take to burn, bury or otherwise dispose of the tens of millions whom they propose to immolate on the altar of their nuclear deterrent strategy?
    Mr. Butler: Under no circumstances can I accept the interpretation of Her Majesty's Government's policy as set out by the hon. Member.

    Television Broadcast
    Mr. Edelmanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what measures he has taken to prevent confusion in the civil defence services following the bogus news report issued on commercial television on 20th February

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    which stated that the civil defence services were being mobilised.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: My right hon. Friend is assured that no statement in respect of mobilisation of the civil defence services was made in this broadcast, and he has not heard of any confusion in those services.
    Mr. Edelman: Will the hon. Lady study the text of the broadcast in which it was stated that civil defence services were being mobilised? Apart from the damage done by this irresponsible broadcast to many sufferers from cardiac troubles and nervous disorders, is it not the case that, because of this broadcast, there is likely to be confusion in the event of any real emergency? Are there any sanctions under the existing law which may be imposed or, if not, will the hon. Lady consult her right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in order to see whether the Television Act, 1954, can be amended or the powers of the I.T.A. strengthened to prevent such an incident occurring again?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: The content of the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General. In fairness, I should say that I understand the words employed in the broadcast were
    "the civil defence authorities have ordered traffic and pedestrians off the streets"
    which does not constitute a mobilization notice.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Is not a programme of this sort equivalent to a bogus fire alarm, and is it not equally liable to prosecution? Should not this matter be looked at again, as it is so highly irresponsible? Does not it come, by analogy, within the scope of those cases in which normally there would be a prosecution?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: There is another Question on the Order Paper addressed to my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General relating to this matter. I do not think I can add anything to the reply which I have given.
    Dame Florence Horsbrugh: Does not my hon. Friend consider that some of the questions asked by hon. Members opposite are likely to cause more concern
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    and alarm than anything seen on television?
    Mr. Edelman: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment as quickly as possible.

  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Prisoners (Interviews)
    Mr. Pagetasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will issue a general directive that warders present at interviews between prisoners on remand and their relations and legal advisers are there solely for prison security reasons, and that anything which a prisoner may say, that does not affect prison security, should be treated as strictly confidential.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Interviews between prisoners and their legal advisers about legal proceedings, civil or criminal, to which the prisoner is a party, are not conducted in the hearing of an officer. At other interviews the supervising officer is not concerned solely with the maintenance of prison security, and on occasion it may be his duty to report information about other matters to his superiors— though to no one else.
    Mr. Paget: Has it not always been the practice that when a wife goes to see her husband in gaol and he is on remand the warder who is present reports any conversation with regard to an escape but that evidence of what has been said by the husband to his wife is never given at the subsequent trial? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the recent trial of Raymond Jones this evidence was in fact given? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that if this happens in future solicitors will have to advise their clients that there is great danger in seeing anybody—whether it be husband or wife—in gaol because of the consequences which may arise out of their conversation?
    Mr. Butler: I have investigated the case to which the hon. and learned Member refers. He has written to me, and I shall write to him about it. A statement was taken by the police from the prison officer on that occasion, but the prison officer did not give evidence. However,

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    I should like an opportunity of reviewing the whole situation, because it is one which needs further review. I will then write to the hon. and learned Gentleman.
    Mr. Paget: I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman.

    Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (Grant)
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the amount of grant to be given in the next financial year to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents for furthering the work of home safety; how long the grant will continue; and what conditions are attached.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: As respects the first two parts of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which I gave to her Question on 27th November last. The grant is intended to enable the Society to carry on while efforts are made to find support for it from other quarters and to bridge the gap between whatever sums it obtains in the next financial year as a result of such efforts and the sum of £1,500. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is making a similar grant on similar conditions.
    Mrs. Mann: I am informed that the Secretary of State for Scotland has made a similar grant with no strings at all. A grant of £1,500 for Scotland surely ought to indicate a grant of ten times that amount for England, whereas England is receiving less than £1,500. Is the Home Secretary aware that the Minister of Transport gave the Society £68,000 for propaganda on road accidents? Deaths from home accidents far outnumber those on the roads. Does not this miserable £1,500, less deductions, indicate a complete lack of reality in the circumstances?
    Mr. Butler: I am glad to note the hon. Lady's solicitude in matters which affect England. It was suggested that there should be a meeting between the Parliamentary Home Safety Group, my right hon. Friend and myself, in which the hon. Lady would take part. If she would like to renew that invitation we might have a talk on the matter.
    Mr. Marquand: The Home Safety Group will be glad to meet the right
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    hon. Gentleman. Is he aware that, following the"Guard that Fire"campaign which he inaugurated with the support of hon. Members on both sides of the House, widespread interest was aroused throughout the country? Does he know that people are now forming committees everywhere and want to carry on the campaign but find themselves very much hampered because the Society, due to the right hon. Gentleman's very small grant, is unable to provide the staff to hold all the lectures and demonstrations that it wants to?
    Mr. Butler: Owing to the initiative of the London County Council a very useful exhibition was held, which I opened and attended. I am glad that there is increased interest in the matter. An adjudication has been made for this year, and we had better make the best of it. I agree about the importance of the subject to which the right hon. Gentleman refers.

    Attempted Suicide
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what further progress he has made in his discussions with regard to the law relating to suicide; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I am pursuing, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, my study of the question how, if attempted suicide ceased to be a criminal offence, we could ensure that people who attempted to kill themselves and were in need of mental treatment would in fact receive it. We have obtained information about the way in which this problem is dealt with in other countries, and a meeting will shortly take place between officers of my Department and representatives of the Joint Committee of the British Medical Association and the Magistrates' Association which has considered this subject.
    Mr. Robinson: I am grateful to the Home Secretary for the progress he has made, but is he aware that the joint report of the British Medical Association and the Magistrates' Association has now been considered by the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church and the Non-conformists, and that none of these bodies has raised objections?

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    Will the right hon. Gentleman expedite the consideration of this matter?
    Mr. Butler: I am aware of those factors, which will be taken into account in connection with the meeting which is now to be held.

    Summer Time
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department on what date he asked the National Farmers' Union for its views on increasing the period of Summer Time; and when he hopes to receive its answer.
    Mr. Hunterasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to receive the results of the consideration by the farmers unions of the matter of prolonging Summer Time.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Renton): The Agricultural Departments asked the National Farmers' Unions of England and Wales and of Scotland for their views towards the end of last year, and replies have recently been received from both unions opposing an extension of Summer Time.
    Captain Pilkington: Can my hon. and learned Friend say to what extent this was completely unanimous in the farming industry? Is he aware that many other sections of the community would like to see more sunlit hours in the evenings?
    Mr. Renton: The two unions expressed opposition to the extension without qualification. As to other interests, it is true that there is a considerable body of support, especially in the tourist industry, for the extension of Summer Time in October. My right hon. Friend will consider the various points of view put to him, but I would point out that if any permanent and fundamental change were to be made it would require legislation.
    Mr. Hunter: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that one hour's extra daylight in October would benefit millions of people? Is he aware that when I raised this matter in the House on a previous occasion the same reply was given by the then Home Secretary but that farmers wrote to me from all over the country saying that instead of being against their interests it would help them?
    Mr. Renton: It may be that an extension of time in October would give pleasure to many people, but it would also inconvenience a great many people on the land, as the National Farmers' Union suggests.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that many of the people whom such a provision would benefit are not as well organised as those who might be disadvantaged by it? That fact should be borne in mind in endeavouring to reach the right conclusion.
    Mr. Renton: It is borne very much in mind.
    Mr. Hunter: In view of that unsatisfactory reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter at the earliest opportunity.

    Child-Care Officers (Salaries)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what improvements in the salary scales of child-care officers have been made in the last 10 years; and what steps have been taken by his Department to provide training facilities to attract more qualified people into the profession.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: My right hon. Friend has no responsibility for the salary scales of child-care officers, and he has no information as to the improvements made in those scales over the last ten years. Recruitment for the special training arranged by the Central Training Council in Child-Care in conjunction with certain universities has been continuous since 1947 and is aided by various forms of publicity. In all, 649 students have obtained the Council's Certificate in Child-Care.
    Mr. Swingler: Would the hon. Lady consider sympathetically the need for more and better qualified child-care officers, and would she have some discussion with representatives of the local authority associations to review the salary scales and opportunities for training and obtaining qualifications to see whether something further cannot be done to attract recruits into this profession?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: I am in sympathy with the hon. Gentleman's intentions. We should like to see more candidates coming

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    forward. There is a great demand in various spheres fox people of this type who have the qualifications required. They have to have a degree, a certificate or diploma in social science, or qualifications as a teacher or a health visitor, or a comparable qualification. There is a great demand but not enough people to take up these posts.
    Sir G. Nicholson: I hope that the hon. Lady's reply does not indicate that the Home Office, which is, after all, charged with responsibility for child-care, does not interest itself in conditions of child-care service further down the scale? Surely, if the Home Office is to do its job properly, it must take an interest in what happens under local authorities.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: I can assure my hon. Friend that we certainly take a very great interest, but we cannot be directly responsible for all the pay scales under the local authorities. In fact, child-care officers are generally paid in accordance with the administrative, professional and technical scales of the National Joint Council for Local Authorities Administrative, Professional, Technical and Clerical Services.

    Blackmail
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to what extent a record is kept in his Department of cases in which persons who have received threats of blackmail in respect of offences they have committed, and have reported such threats to the police, have later been prosecuted for those offences.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Prosecution in such cases is a matter for the chief officer of police concerned and cases are not reported to me.
    Mr. Greenwood: Is it not a fact that we should do everything we can to encourage members of the public who report blackmail rather than penalise them when they do so? Would it not help to establish the general principle, about which I realise there are difficulties, if cases of this kind were reported to the Home Secretary and a central record kept, and would he consider any cases which hon. Members may bring to his attention?
    Mr. Butler: If hon. Members bring cases to my attention I will certainly look at them. We come across cases in the normal course of our work. The hon. Gentleman will remember that in the evidence before the Wolfenden Committee there were a great many cases in which proceedings were not taken—more than thirty which were brought to its attention —against two in which charges were brought. The more information I can get the better I shall be pleased.

    Women Prisoners
    Mr. Fitchasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many women were sentenced to terms of imprisonment in England and Wales in 1958; and what is the total accommodation for women prisoners.
    Mr. Renton: My right hon. Friend regrets that the information requested in the first half of the Question is not yet available, but he hopes to be able to send it to the hon. Member fairly soon. In 1957 the number of women sentenced to imprisonment was 1,952, and the 1958 figure is expected to be somewhat higher. On the 10th February this year the population of women's prisons was 715 and the number of places available in ordinary accommodation was 1,299.
    Mr. Fitch: Does the Joint Under-Secretary anticipate a rise in the number of women who will be sent to prison when the Street Offences Bill becomes law?
    Mr. Renton: There will be an increase, but we do not expect that it will be very large.

  COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS

    Pensioners (Gold Coast)
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what he estimates would be the total cost of raising the pensions of retired members, widows, and orphans of Her Majesty's Overseas Service or Colonial Service who, in the past, served the Government of the Gold Coast, to bring them into line with those granted to similar classes of pensioners in the United Kingdom.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. C. J. M. Alport): I regret that it is not possible for me to make any estimate on the basis suggested by my hon. Friend without asking the Government of Ghana to undertake actuarial calculations on nearly 2,000 individual cases. Such a calculation would obviously take a long time. I am fully aware of the problem which my hon. Friend has in mind, and I look forward to having an early opportunity of discussing it with him and representatives of the pensioners.
    Mr. Tilney: I thank my hon. Friend for the latter part of his reply. Is he aware that the Colonial Paper, Reorganisation of the Colonial Service, No. 306 of 1954, states that professional, technical and higher administrative branches of the Colonial Service have been organised as a unified service since 1930? Is he also aware that there are ex-members of the Gold Coast Government service who were transferred elsewhere by the edict of Secretaries of State for the Colonies and that they were removed from territories where the pensions are very much better than at present in the United Kingdom to the Gold Coast where pensions are very much worse?
    Mr. Alport: By the terms of his supplementary question my hon. Friend has indicated the complexity of this problem, and perhaps it would be best if we discussed it with the representatives when the occasion arises.

  MALDIVES

    Gan Island (Airfield)
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will make a statement on the official discussions which have taken place with the Government of Ceylon and the Maldivian delegation regarding the status of the Maldivian Government.
    Mr. Rankinasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations when he expects the draft agreement for building and maintaining a Royal Air Force staging unit on Gan Island will be ratified.
    Mr. Alport: I would refer the hon. Members to my Answer to the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) on 20th January. The nego-
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    tiations with the Maldivian Government are continuing, and I will make a statement when they end. The Government of Ceylon is not concerned in these discussions.
    Mr. Brockway: May I ask whether these islands and populations are small? Is not there an important principle involved? Is it not the case that Ceylon has always been closely associated with these islands and that its position as an independent member of the Commonwealth should be considered? Is it the case that the Maldivian Government are asking for the recognition of certain rights of self-government before the Royal Air Force bases are established? In view of those facts, is it not desirable that the House should be made aware of what is occurring?
    Mr. Alport: I am not at liberty to disclose the nature of the negotiations while they are current. There is no constitutional connection between Ceylon and the Maldives.
    Mr. Rankin: Would not it have been fair to the Maldivian Government to have tried to reach agreement before going ahead with the building of an R.A.F. staging post, in view of the fact that the Maldivian Government claim internal sovereign rights which, evidently, the hon. Gentleman does not recognise?
    Mr. Alport: We have gone ahead on the basis of the agreement of 1953. We have shown the greatest patience in considering all the points raised by the Government of that time and the subsequent Government, and negotiations are continuing.

  HIGH COMMISSION TERRITORIES

    Economic Development
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will now make a statement regarding economic development in Bechuanaland, including the exploitation of the recently discovered mineral resources.
    Mr. Alport: I would refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) on 1st August, 1958, and to the

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    right hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Bottomley) on 11th December, 1958. Plans are at present under consideration for the continuation of the development programme to be financed from the Colonial Development and Welfare money which, if Parliament approves, will be made available up to 31st March, 1964, as a result of the Bill published on 19th February.
    As regards mineral resources, a small company registered in Bechuanaland and approved by the Bangwaketse is exploiting small scale surface deposits of manganese discovered in the Reserve by the Colonial Geological Survey. The Survey has already discovered coalfields in the Bamangwato Reserve and traced and marked a copper area. The Bamangwato are still negotiating with a leading mining company for the grant of a concession covering all mineral resources in this area except oil and diamonds.
    Mr. Brockway: While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that detailed reply, which was rather more than I expected after his introductory remarks, may I ask him whether he will ensure that the Africans employed in these mineral areas have the right to take skilled jobs, such as are denied in the Union of South Africa? Will he also ensure that their minimum conditions of wages, housing and health will not repeat the conditions in Johannesburg and other mineral areas?
    Mr. Alport: I think the hon. Gentleman knows that the negotiations at the present moment being undertaken are between the Bamangwato tribe and the mineral company. I have no doubt that the Bamangwato, when they have completed the negotiations, as we hope they will at a relatively early date, will be fully satisfied on that score.

    University Entrance
    Mr. Johnsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations to what extent it is his intention to change the system of examinations for university matriculation in Basutoland, so that students can become qualified for entrance to the University of London.
    Mr. Alport: The Basutoland Government are at present considering the question of making a change in the existing system of university matriculation.
    Mr. Johnson: While thanking the Minister for that answer, may I ask him to bear in mind constantly that the Basuto people are vehemently opposed to any form of Bantu education under the auspices of the Afrikaaner Government of South Africa?
    Mr. Alport: We are pretty well aware of the background of this problem, and we hope that in the near future university experts will be visiting Roma to investigate the situation.
    Mr. Johnson: Does the hon. Gentleman mean that the Basuto secondary school system, with its textbooks and school syllabus, will be turned over to the English system and not linked, as now, to the South African?
    Mr. Alport: That is a different question, but if the hon. Gentleman likes to put it down I will do my best to answer it.

    University Students
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations how many students from Basutoland, Bechuanaland and Swaziland are being educated at this time at Roma College, University College at Salisbury, and Makerere University College, Uganda; and what are his plans for in-increasing these numbers.
    Mr. Alport: At Roma College there are 22 students from Basutoland, seven from Bechuanaland and six from Swaziland. One student from Basutoland is at the University College, Salisbury, but in addition there are two Basutoland and three Swazi at Goromonzi High School, near Salisbury, preparing for entrance to the University College there. There are no students from the High Commission Territories at Makerere College, Uganda.
    The number of students at universities is, of course, related to the number qualifying annually by matriculation or Higher School Certificate. In Basutoland a high percentage of those qualifying go to university and receive government assistance. Thirteen students at Roma, two at Goromonzi and one at Salisbury receive government bursaries. In Bechuanaland, as I informed the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) on 12th February, an increase is contemplated in the number of secondary schools. In

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    Swaziland plans are in preparation to double the capacity of three African high schools and to make available increased funds for scholarships.
    Mr. Johnson: Does the Minister not think that the numbers are far too few? In view of the fact that Dr. Verwoerd, the Premier in South Africa, is constantly jibing at us because we do not do as much for our High Commission Territory Africans as he does in the Union, surely in this battle for competitive coexistence we should do something more for them?
    Mr. Alport: The hon. Gentleman will no doubt recall that there has been a very substantial improvement in Basuto education in recent years due to the admirable efforts of missionary societies operating in that country. It was my firm impression when I visited the Protectorates that what was needed most was an improvement in secondary education to ensure an increasing number from those territories capable of qualifying for education at university level.

    Co-operative Movement
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what encouragement is being given by the Government of Swaziland to the development of the co-operative movement and the training of African personnel to take part in such development.
    Mr. Alport: The Government of Swaziland are well aware of the desirability of encouraging co-operative marketing in the Protectorate. Amendments to the Co-operative Law are under consideration and arrangements have been made for a Government officer and the African secretary of a prospective cooperative society to visit Basutoland to study the development of the co-operative movement there.
    Mr. Johnson: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree again that the cooperative movement is the best kind of functional democracy that we can take to the African people? In view of this, will he do his best to get some Swazis over to the Co-operative College at Loughborough?
    Mr. Alport: I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman that the co-operative move-
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    ment in its various aspects has a very important part to play in the future developments of these territories. In Swaziland there are, in addition to the co-operative societies, 130 centres for cooperative marketing of dairy produce which are embryo co-operative societies and might provide a basis for development in the future.

  EDUCATION

    Youth Organisations
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Education how many local authorities have established joint committees with the voluntary associations concerned with the youth services for providing recreational, social and physical training for young people and leaders for such movements; how many have failed to function because of the lack of financial assistance; and what steps are being taken to assist them.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Sir Edward Boyle): My right hon. Friend has no detailed information on this subject, but most local education authorities keep in close touch with local voluntary youth organisations in their areas through joint committee or by other means.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware of the excellent work done for these teenagers by the voluntary organisations, and will he take steps to see whether his Department or the committees can help to finance organisations that are doing such excellent work?
    Sir E. Boyle: If there is any particular case about which the hon. Gentleman would like to write to me concerning one of these committees, of course, I will make all the necessary inquiries.
    Mr. M. Stewart: Is it not rather surprising that the hon. Gentleman's Department has no information on which an answer to this question could be given? Surely local authorities are supposed to do this kind of thing. Could not the Minister find out the extent to which this duty is being neglected?
    Sir E. Boyle: I will see about it. Local authorities are not statutorily required to inform the Minister about their methods

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    of keeping contact with local voluntary bodies, but I will see whether we can obtain local information.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: In view of the importance of the matter, may I ask how many of these associations are entitled to financial assistance?
    Sir E. Boyle: No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will bear in mind that this is one of the matters with which the Albemarle Committee is concerning itself.

    Kenbury House School
    Dr. Kingasked the Minister of Education whether he will make a statement on the inspection of Kenbury House School.
    Sir E. Boyle: Her Majesty's Inspectors' report has only just been received. Their findings will be considered and any necessary action taken as quickly as possible.
    Dr. King: Will the Minister bear in mind that, apart from the county local authority which has blacklisted this school, a number of other local authorities are anxiously waiting for information because they have sent children to this school? Will the hon. Gentleman treat the inspectors' report as a matter of urgency?
    Sir E. Boyle: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that, in the interests of a good many people, we want to decide quickly what to do next. We have only just received the report.

    Northampton Grammar School (Teachers)
    Mr. Pagetasked the Minister of Education whether he is aware that Northampton Grammar School has been advertising three mathematics and one science vacancy and have had only one applicant, that, in 1954, in response to the national appeal, the governors made provision to expand the teaching of advanced mathematics, but that, owing to the absence of staff, the parents of boys may have been informed that they must discontinue these studies; and if he will permit the Governors to pay allowances above the basic Burnham scale, which will enable them to retain their existing staff and attract new applicants.
    Sir E. Boyle: I understand that the governors of this school are advertising
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    future and not existing vacancies, and that they have no intention of discontinuing their advanced courses in mathematics. Allowances above scale salary are payable in accordance with the conditions of the Burnham Report.
    Mr. Paget: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that our capacity to maintain qualitative competition in the world depends upon the output of the sixth forms of grammar schools and that throughout the country there are now between 400 and 500 vacancies? Is he aware that in Northampton these vacancies cannot be filled because competitive salaries cannot be offered, and that unless they are offered parents will have to be informed that these studies cannot continue?
    Sir E. Boyle: Yes, Sir. We all recognise that it is no good having the best technical colleges in the world unless one has first-class science and mathematics teaching in the secondary schools and in the primary school stages. Salaries must be within the terms of the current Burnham Report.

    State Scholarships (Awards)
    Sir C. Taylorasked the Minister of Education what estimate he has made of the cost to public funds of implementing the principle that any boy or girl winning a State scholarship to a school or university should be entitled to receive his or her award in full, together with all benefits accruing thereto, irrespective of the income of their parents or guardians.
    Sir E. Boyle: About £1¼ million.
    Sir C. Taylor: While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he has seen the Motion on the Order Paper in the names of a number of hon. Members and myself, pleading with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that something on these lines should be done?
    [That, in the opinion of this House, any boy or girl winning a State scholarship to a school or university should be entitled to receive his or her award in full and all benefits accruing thereto, irrespective of the income of their parents or guardians.]
    Sir E. Boyle: Motions on the Order Paper are, in the first instance, the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Leader

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    of the House. I have no doubt that the Colin Anderson Committee will take due note of this Question this afternoon.

    Training Colleges
    Mr. M. Stewartasked the Minister of Education what teachers' training colleges he expects will be obliged to close as a result of their exclusion from the national scheme of expansion; and whether he is satisfied that the recruitment of teachers will not thereby be jeopardised.
    Sir E. Boyle: Three very small colleges are due to be closed in the next few years because they are not large enough to run a three-year course and cannot conveniently be expanded. The lost places will be made good by additions elsewhere over and above the 12,000 places to be provided by the end of 1962 under the current scheme of expansion.
    Mr. Stewart: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the anxiety there is about Hereford Training College, for example? Could he say anything about that?
    Sir E. Boyle: I would put it this way, that it should not be assumed that any other colleges will be closed simply because they have not been selected for expansion. Obviously I cannot make promises too far ahead, but I can inform the House that no other early closures are in contemplation at the moment.

    Public Library Service (Report)
    Mr. M. Stewartasked the Minister of Education whether he has yet studied the Report of the Committee on the Public Library Service; and what action he proposes to take.
    Sir E. Boyle: My right hon. Friend is examining this Report and has asked the interested parties for their views on its recommendations.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    G.A.T.T. (Bilateral Agreements)
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will ascertain the approximate number of new bilateral trade agreements of which brief particulars have been published in the International Trade News Bulletin issued on be-
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    half of the Contracting Parties since the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade was signed in 1947.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Sir David Eccles): The agreements listed in this Bulletin, many of Which are renewals of previous agreements, cover a variety of subjects and purposes If my hon. Friend would let me know more precisely the nature of the information he desires to extract from this material, I will see if I can help him.
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will propose at the next meeting of the Contracting Parties to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade that, in view of their discriminatory nature, all bilateral agreements entered into by any of the Contracting Parties should be registered with the Secretariat.
    Sir D. Eccles: No, Sir. I do not see that any useful purpose would be served by adding this requirement to the existing provisions for the publication of agreements.
    Mr. Russell: Would it not be useful to have discriminatory agreements registered in view of the fact that they are against the spirit of the G.A.T.T.?
    Sir D. Eccles: Bilateral agreements are not ruled out by the G.A.T.T., and if any which are thought likely to conflict with the terms of G.A.T.T. are made, there is machinery for examining them. I am not at all sure that a rule of this kind would help, because it is very easy to make an agreement of this type in such a way that it would not have to be registered.

    Textile Mill, Prinlaws
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any inquiries have yet been made about the textile mill closed several months ago at Prinlaws, Fife.
    Sir D. Eccles: The Board of Trade has so far received no inquiries.
    Mr. Hamilton: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that this textile mill has considerable importance and that the women who were displaced when the company went into voluntary liquidation—mainly as a result of the Government's policy—were subsequently unemployed and find it very difficult to get

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    alternative employment? Will he have regard to that fact in bringing the factory to the notice of industrialists?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, I will. We do not normally assist a private owner to dispose of his property, but we have made an exception in this case for the reasons the hon. Member gave.

    Ystalyfera, Swansea Valley
    Mr. Watkinsasked the President of the Board of Trade what recommendations he has received from the Welsh Board of Industry with regard to the introduction of industries or other schemes for dealing with unemployed persons covered by the Ystalyfera Employment Exchange, Swansea Valley.
    Sir D. Eccles: The Welsh Board for Industry has this week drawn my attention to representations it has received on this matter. My Department has had some success in attracting industry to West South Wales, and will continue to stress the merits of this area.
    Mr. Watkins: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my Question asked what recommendations have been received from that area recently? It is all right having meetings, but what is being done about it?
    Sir D. Eccles: We are doing our best to bring industry into that area. I am going there next week myself in order to lay the foundation stone of a new factory.

    Dollar Export Council (Welsh Representation)
    Mr. Gowerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make it a condition of his grant to the Dollar Export Council that Wales should have representatives on the Dollar Exports Council.
    Sir D. Eccles: No, Sir. But the Chairman of the Council is considering the question of Welsh representation.
    Mr. Gower: While thanking my right hon. Friend for the latter part of his Answer, may I say that it is the negative part at the beginning of the reply which is unsatisfactory? Is he aware that this is one of far too many councils and committees in the United Kingdom which either have no Welsh representative or on which the Welsh representation is quite
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    inadequate and that so long as I get this kind of Answer I shall express my discontent in various ways?

    East Germany
    Mr. Rankinasked the President of the Board of Trade what value of the goods to be exchanged in the trade arrangements recently made between the Federation of British Industries and its counterpart in East Germany will be on open general licence.
    Sir D. Eccles: It is estimated that about £2 million of East German sales here may be covered by our open general licence. I understand that there is no open general licence for imports into East Germany.
    Mr. Rankin: In view of the possible effect of the impact of the Common Market on our economy, would it not be best to try to put all this trade on specific licence to make sure that we reap the greatest benefit for workers in this country?
    Sir D. Eccles: I am glad that an unofficial trade agreement with East Germany has been signed. We must watch to see how it goes. I hope the result will be an expansion in trade.

    Barter Deals
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the President of the Board of Trade what barter deals have been made in recent months with Commonwealth and foreign countries; to what extent this method of trading has increased; and for what reasons.
    Sir D. Eccles: The only barter deals in which the Government are involved relate to exchanges of consumer goods with Soviet Russia, notably herrings and some white fish against Russian canned salmon and crab, and wool textiles against Russian matches. Private firms may make barter deals in any part of the world and, unless the imports require licences, I would not ordinarily hear of them.

    TRIBUNALS OF INQUIRY (EVIDENCE) ACT, 1921
    Mr. Grimondasked the Prime Minister if he will move for a Select Committee to consider to what extent the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, is adequate for the investigation

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    of situations of the type which have arisen lately, particularly the alleged Bank Rate and Waters' cases, or how far new procedures are needed, and to recommend what these should be.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply.
    The Government do not think that the present moment is suitable for the inquiry suggested in the hon. Member's Question. They are, however, prepared to give careful consideration to the question of amending the 1921 Act in the light of the experience gained of its operation.
    Mr. Grimond: While appreciating that this may be an inconvenient moment for definite action, may I thank the Leader of the House for his undertaking to reconsider the matter and ask him, in view of the widespread anxiety about the use of this Act in certain cases, whether he will consider making time available for a general discussion in this House as to when it is appropriate to use this procedure, if at all?
    Mr. Butler: I cannot give an undertaking about time, nor do I think this would be a suitable moment while a certain inquiry is proceeding, but I have indicated in the latter part of my Answer that we are prepared to give this matter consideration, and I think we should all get together and consider what is the best course.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Nationalised Industries (Capital)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent he now intends to alter the methods of providing capital for the nationalised industries.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. F. J. Erroll): Under existing legislation, the Government are empowered to lend to the industries for capital purposes up to the end of August, 1959. I cannot at present say anything about the arrangements beyond that date.
    Mr. Grimond: While accepting that situation, may I ask whether the Government have had any consultations over what has been done about the very large
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    outstanding deficits of some of these industries?
    Mr. Erroll: This matter is under consideration by my right hon. Friend.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Will my hon. Friend at any rate undertake that nationalised industries will not be financed out of the floating debt?
    Mr. Erroll: My right hon. Friend will look at that as well.

    United Arab Republic (Financial Agreement)
    Mr. Mikardoasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects to complete the financial agreement at present being negotiated with the Government of the United Arab Republic.
    Mr. Erroll: I am leaving for Cairo tomorrow morning in order to sign the agreement.
    Mr. Mikardo: While wishing the hon. Gentleman a safe and happy journey out and back, may I ask whether when he comes back he will be prepared to tell the House how much we are paying and what is the value of counter-claims we are forgoing in consideration of the damage done during our attack on Port Said and related matters?
    Mr. Erroll: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will, of course, make a full statement to the House at the first available opportunity after the signing of the agreement.

    Public Works Loan Board (Interest Rates)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many resolutions have been received by his Department from local authorities regarding the high rates of interest paid to the Public Works Loan Board; and, in view of the wide dissatisfaction expressed at the present arrangements to meet local government requirements, if he will give further consideration to the methods by which they have to raise capital, with a view to meeting the wishes of these authorities.
    Mr. Erroll: Fifteen such resolutions have been received since the present interest rates of the Public Works Loan Board were fixed on 25th October, 1958. As to the second part of the Question. I

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    would refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend's reply of 2nd December, 1958, to the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice).
    Mr. Awbery: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that local authorities are making a protest against the discrimination which is being shown towards them as compared with building societies, which are receiving money from the Public Works Loans Board at a lower rate than local authorities which are building houses? Will he see that local authorities get the same chance as building societies?
    Mr. Erroll: I shall take note of what the hon. Member has said.
    Mr. Jay: In view of the existing high level of unemployment, how do the Government justify a rate of 6 per cent. to local authorities?
    Mr. Erroll: That is because the rate is fixed in reference to free market conditions. I would remind the right hon. Member that it has been lowered three times in the last twelve months.
    Mr. Jay: In that case, is it not obvious that the Government ought to reduce the Bank Rate to give more work to local authorities?
    Mr. Erroll: That is quite another question.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA

    Kariba Dam (Land)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the terms of his approval for the adjustment of the boundaries of the two native reserves in Northern Rhodesia known as Tonga Magoya and Tonga Choma as a result of the flooding of the Zambesi Valley above the Kariba Dam and for any adjustment above the water level of the lake and for the adjustment required as compensation for the loss of such areas; and if he will give the text of the directions issued for the acquisition from Native Trust land of the flooded land and of any Native Trust land above water level acquired for other purposes.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Julian Amery): Provisions relating to land flooded as a result of closing the Kariba Dam and to land required for other purposes in the Gwembe District are contained in the
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    Northern Rhodesia (Gwembe District) Order in Council. This was laid before Parliament today. No boundary adjustment or acquisition is involved.
    Mr. Rankin: Is it not the case that the Secretary of State is bound to preserve the rights and interests of the Africans in the Native Trust and in the Reserve lands and can only abrogate them if they are put to a public use? Is it the case that that is not so in these particular adjustments which are now being made? Can the hon. Gentleman say whether or not riparian rights which the Africans had on the Zambesi are to be conserved in the new Kariba Dam?
    Mr. Amery: We have every reason to think that the situation that will arise will be more advantageous economically to the African community residing there than the situation existing hitherto, but perhaps the hon. Member will study the Order in Council in detail.

ATOMIC WEAPONS RESEARCH ESTABLISHMENT, ALDERMASTON (EXPLOSION)
Mr. G. Brown(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the reported explosion and fire at the Atomic Weapons Establishment at Aldermaston.
The Paymaster-General (Mr. R. Maudling): I have been asked to reply.
I regret to inform the House that two men were killed and one injured in an explosion at the Atomic Weapons Research Establishment at Aldermaston at five minutes past nine this morning, when some explosive was being unloaded from a trolley.
The explosive was of a conventional type and no radioactive materials were involved. The House will be glad to know that there is no radioactive hazard to staff or to the general public.
A Board of Inquiry into the cause of the accident is being set up. Meanwhile, I am sure that the House would wish to join me in expressing sympathy with the injured and the relatives of those killed.
Mr. Brown: First, may I associate my right hon. and hon. Friends with the Minister's expression of deep sympathy for the victims and their families?
This establishment has, quite naturally and inevitably, been surrounded by the

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highest possible degree of secrecy. It is likely, therefore, that any mishap there will give rise to rather more public anxiety and possibly rumours because of this degree of secrecy. The right hon. Gentleman has assured us that there is no danger of radioactivity. To set the public mind completely at ease, would the right hon. Gentleman undertake, first, to press on the Authority that at the conclusion of the inquiry the fullest possible statement shall be made? Secondly, despite the nature of the establishment, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that at the inquiry the workpeople will be allowed to make any representations about the safety precautions which they might wish to make?
Mr. Maudling: My right hon. Friend will certainly consider the point about the publication of as much information as possible. On the second point, it has already been arranged that both the non-industrial staff and the industrial workers shall be represented on the Board of Inquiry.
Sir J. Duncan: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not normal in cases such as this that the local Member should be given the opportunity of asking a Question, particularly where death and injury have occurred to his constituents? Was my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Sir A. Hurd) warned that this Question was to be asked?
Mr. Speaker: I have received no request for my permission to ask a Private Notice Question, except from the right hon. Gentleman who has asked it.
Sir J. Duncan: May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether the right hon. Gentleman warned my hon. Friend?
Mr. Speaker: That is nothing to do with me.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 2ND MARCH—Second Reading of the Colonial Development and Welfare Bill.
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Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
TUESDAY, 3RD MARCH—Supply [4th Allotted Day]: Army Estimates, 1959–60, will be considered in Committee on Vote A.
WEDNESDAY, 4TH MARCH—Report and Third Reading of the House Purchase and Housing Bill.
THURSDAY, 5TH MARCH—Supply [5th Allotted Day]: Air Estimates, 1959–60, will be considered in Committee on Vote A.
FRIDAY, 6TH MARCH—Consideration of Private Members' Motions.
Mr. Gaitskell: I have three points. First, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have grave doubts whether the time provided for Report and Third Reading of the House Purchase and Housing Bill will be adequate, and that we can give no possible undertaking, as far as we are concerned, that we can necessarily get through the business that day?
Secondly, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind our request for a debate on Cyprus as soon as possible?
Thirdly, may I ask whether it is the intention of the Government to give the House any information about the situation in Southern Rhodesia? I realise that what has been done by the Southern Rhodesian Government is within their own jurisdiction. Nevertheless, in view of possible repercussions on other Colonial Territories, may I ask whether Her Majesty's Government were consulted, whether they have any information, and whether an early statement will be made on this subject?
Mr. Butler: The House will remember that no less than three days were taken on the Floor of the House on the Committee stage of the House Purchase and Housing Bill. We think that it is perfectly reasonable to make the progress that we have indicated on Wednesday, so we shall desire to make the maximum progress possible.
I have already noted the right hon. Gentleman's wish for a debate on Cyprus as soon as possible. We can discuss that through the usual channels.
In reply to the right hon. Gentleman's third point, I think that we must be careful over this, because it is an area

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which does not fall within the jurisdiction of Her Majesty's Government upon which I could answer. What I think that the right hon. Gentleman perhaps has in mind are the general repercussions upon areas for which we could be responsible. It is in that spirit that I will, consider his request. I do not think, as at present advised, though I undertake to consult my right hon. Friends principally concerned, that it is likely that there will be a statement before the week-end.
Mr. Gaitskell: May I press the right hon. Gentleman a little further on the last point? The situation is apparently rather serious. There are riots in Nyasaland. Now there is a state of emergency in Southern Rhodesia. The African National Congress has been banned. I understand that some persons have been arrested. There is an obvious danger of repercussions. I asked whether Her Majesty's Government had been consulted on this matter. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider what he said just now. It is extremely important that some information on this matter should be given to the House before the week-end.
Mr. Butler: I have said that I will consult my right hon. Friends principally concerned. Indeed, it will not surprise the right hon. Gentleman to know that the situation in general is a matter of considerable anxiety to Her Majesty's Government. But I must be very careful not to answer on behalf of another Government, and I would have to frame any answer I gave or that was given in the light of that consideration. I cannot take this matter further, but perhaps the usual contacts can be maintained.
Major Legge-Bourke: Has the attention of my right hon. Friend been called to the Special Report that was submitted to the House on 9th February by the Committee on Group B of Private Bills which covered four separate Bills? My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) has objected again to the Report on the Bucks Water Board Bill, which will, therefore, at some time in the near future be debated on the Floor of the House. Would my right hon. Friend consider arranging for possibly the Special Report on the four Bills to be considered at the same time?
Mr. Butler: This would be a matter for the Chairman of Ways and Means. While I would be glad to consider the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend, I do not think that the decision lies entirely with me.
Mr. Hamilton: The right hon. Gentleman will recall a question that I asked at this time last week. Is he aware that since then the Scottish unemployment figures have risen by 20,000, so that there are now probably more unemployed in Scotland than there are red deer? The House has already spent 16½hours debating 100,000 red deer in Scotland and not one hour on the 120,000 unemployed. Since it is the Government's policy that has created this state of affairs, will the right hon. Gentleman now undertake to give Government time to debate the whole unemployment situation?
Mr. Butler: This is a matter that can be raised by the Opposition on a Supply day. It is one to which the Government give constant attention. I think that it gives a misleading expression to compare the matter with a Bill, because time is always given to legislation, whatever the subject may be. It must not be thought that the Government are not interested in this vital aspect of the unemployment situation in Scotland.
Dame Irene Ward: Can my right hon. Friend say when we are to hear about an increase in the pensions of widows of Service officers and other ranks, which has been the subject of discussion for a very long time? Will he bear in mind that in a two-day debate on defence it is rather unfortunate that there has not been a statement on this question? It is very hard on the widows to be kept in suspense for such a long time. Can we, please, have a speed-up?
Mr. Butler: I will note what my hon. Friend says. We still have a further day on the defence debate. I cannot give any undertaking now.
Mr. G. M. Thomson: Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. Hamilton), has the Leader of the House considered the Motion on the Order Paper, in the name of some of my hon. Friends, calling for a much more urgent and spectacular Scottish public works programme; and, in particular, for the building soon of the

1301
Tay Road Bridge as a means of alleviating unemployment? Would the right hon. Gentleman consider giving time for a debate on that Motion?
[That this House, in view of the latest grave rise in Scottish unemployment, and in view of the fact that there is now a surplus of steel and the Scottish steel industry is operating seriously below capacity, urges Her Majesty's Government to extend immediately the provision of major public works and, in particular, to name an early date for a start to the building of the proposed Tay Road Bridge, believing that this project is now essential both for alleviating local unemployment and for providing the east of Scotland with a modern system of transportation necessary to attract new industry to the area.]
Mr. Butler: I have the Motion before me, and I am aware of the interest of hon. Members in it. I cannot, at the moment, give any definite undertaking, but this is, perhaps, a matter that will arise in the course of our normal discussions.
Mr. Beswick: To return to the subject of the review of certain existing Service pensions, does the right hon. Gentleman realise that next week we are to debate two of the Service Estimates; and that it would be quite wrong to discuss them without reference to pensions?
Mr. Butler: I will note the hon. Gentleman's point.
Mr. Chetwynd: Would the Leader of the House consider extending the time for debating the Service Estimates on Tuesday and Thursday of next week?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I think that, according to precedent, we shall probably move for a suspension of Standing Orders, but, this year, I anticipate that the Motion will be to suspend for two hours in each case.
Mr. Brockway: Reverting to what was said by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition about Central Africa, while it is not within the competence of this House to discuss what the Government of Southern Rhodesia have done, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that, before we have a discussion in the House, Her Majesty's Government will not extend to Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland the ban on the Central African Congress that has been applied in Southern Rhodesia?
Mr. Speaker: Order. We are on business, and I do not think that that question relates to business.
Mr. Slater: In view of the many Questions that have been asked today about Civil Defence, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it advisable that we should debate this important matter so as to allay the fears and anxieties of the general public, and also to learn the attitude of local authorities?
Mr. Butler: It had struck me, because of the number of Questions put down, and the number of Answers given by myself and by my hon. Friends the Joint Under-Secretaries of State, that there is considerable interest in civil defence. I may say that at any time, when it is for the convenience of the House, I should be very glad to give further information. There is a debate on defence today, when it would be in order to refer to this subject. I dare say, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Slater) will attempt to catch your eye.
Mr. Sydney Irving: Does the Leader of the House anticipate that the House will have an early opportunity to discuss the Roberts Report on Public Libraries?
Mr. Butler: It cannot be regarded as one of the more pressing of our anxieties, but I note the genuineness of the hon. Member's request.
Mr. Skeffington: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered giving time to debate a Motion that has been on the Order Paper for a considerable time, signed by some of my hon. Friends and myself, relating to the future of the aircraft industry, a subject that arouses considerable concern among hon. Members on both sides?
[That this House, viewing with grave concern the contraction of the aircraft industry and the consequent dispersal of skilled men and valuable design teams, and bearing in mind its importance in regard both to the nation's defence and economic interests, and noting the large sums of public money already expended in the industry, urges the Government to appoint an independent Committee of Inquiry to consider and make recommendations as to the future of the aircraft industry.]
Mr. Butler: I cannot give any undertaking, but I am aware of the interest as expressed in the Motion.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  DEFENCE
  [Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Amendment to Question [25th February:]:
  That this House approves the Report on the Progress of the Five-Year Defence Plan contained in Command Paper No. 662.
  Which Amendment was, to leave out from "House "to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof':
  "regrets the continued failure of Her Majesty's Government to produce a coherent and effective defence policy; and deplores the fact that despite a total defence expenditure of more than eleven thousand million pounds since 1951 there continue to be grave inadequacies in the armament and equipment of Her Majesty's forces".
  Question again proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.
  3.45 p.m.
  Mr. Thomas Steele: As this is the first time that I have had the honour to open the second day of such an important debate, Mr. Speaker, I naturally sought some advice as to what I ought to do. I was told that my first task would be to emphasise the important arguments that had been advanced from this side, but not answered by a Government spokesman. The House will be immediately seized of my difficulty in this respect because, so far, we have not had any answer at all from any Government spokesman.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Sir W. Anstruther-Gray) will know that I mean no disrespect to him—he knows me too well to think that—when I say that he did not altogether enjoy his task of winding up the debate for the Government last night. A great deal of his speech was highly critical of the Government, and rightly so.
  That was the most interesting feature of all the speeches from the Government side yesterday. All except one agreed with the Minister of Defence, and then proceeded to criticise him severely. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) was the exception, in one respect. He said, quite frankly, and at once, that he differed from his right hon. Friend, but I thought that he
  1304
  was then very naughty indeed. We have been trying to keep this debate to defence and not, as has been happening in the past, to let it be a continuation of our foreign affairs debates. Yesterday, I thought that the right hon. Gentleman intended to turn it into a colonial affairs debate.
  To be frank, I found the right hon. Gentleman's speech rather nauseating. His lecture was interesting, but he gave us the impression that he had discovered a great fundamental truth. The expenditure in which he was involved in going away for two years could have been avoided. Had he gone to Transport House and bought one or two 2d. pamphlets, he would have had all that information.
  The right hon. Gentleman failed to give us the moral lesson to be drawn from his wanderings. Surely that lesson is that the people of whom he spoke would prefer the opportunity to govern themselves badly rather than be governed by someone else. However, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that if he can find a form of words that expresses his views, he can add them to our Amendment. We will welcome his support. I thought that the Leader of the Liberal Party, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), rather spoiled what was a good point by the deployment of his argument. He never really recovered from the interruption of the Minister of Defence on the subject of tactical nuclear weapons. From then on, I think, he was completely deflated. I hope that the Minister of Defence will leave it at that. He has already demonstrated the absurdity of it, but I rather suspect that he will spend half his time knocking it about again tonight—that is why I mention it now— rather than apply himself to the real issues of the debate.
  It is hardly to be expected that we shall have a reply from the Minister of Supply on questions of defence strategy. I have no doubt that he will give us an answer on some of the matters raised by my right hon. and hon. Friends and other hon. Members yesterday, but the questions on defence strategy, which, after all, is the main subject of our criticism, will be left unanswered until the end of the debate. Perhaps we may not even have an answer then.

  1305
  Before I go further, I have two questions to put, one to the Minister of Supply and the other to the Minister of Defence. The first one, to the Minister of Supply, I raise now because I want to ensure that he will be prepared to answer it. It is about Polaris. Has the idea of mounting the nuclear deterrent on a submarine been altogether abandoned? Yesterday, we listened to the explanation of the Minister of Defence for selecting Blue Streak. It was not altogether convincing. He was very careful, as the White Paper itself is careful, not to commit himself unduly.
  The Minister of Supply will surely be able to expand a little on this matter and deal with it more specifically from the technical point of view. After all, there were a number of inspired "leaks "before the defence debate took place, and we were being assured that firm and stern decisions were to be made. But this does not appear to have happened. Moreover, what one can gather about Polaris seems to make nonsense of all the agitation to have the McMahon Act altered. Could we have some information about the talks which have taken place? Are the talks about Polaris still continuing or have they been entirely abandoned?
  My question to the Minister of Defence is this. May we have a little more enlightenment on the decision, announced last year, about the anti-submarine rôle of the Navy? The Minister advised us not to exaggerate its importance. What does he mean, and what does the decision really mean? Does it mean more adequate protection of the fleet and, perhaps, better safeguards for other operations in which surface vessels are involved, or does it go beyond that? Is the right hon. Gentleman thinking in terms of fighting a blockade of this country? If it be the latter, the building programme for the Navy could hardly be described as adequate, bearing in mind what resources were required in the last war and what Admiral Doenitz said in his memoirs.
  The Government should not be surprised that we on this side show such anxiety about the policy outlined two years ago, emphasised last year, and apparently still in their mind, with regard to the use of nuclear weapons. It seems to me that the Government have made up their mind, or, at least, the Minister of Defence has, that there is no possibility of any conflict in Europe in which
  1306
  nuclear weapons would not be used. Until now, that has really meant the use of the ultimate deterrent. Although the American forces now have the Corporal, and British units are preparing to receive it, the situation has not really changed. The Corporal is, by no stretch of the imagination, a close support weapon. It seems to be a very heavy and complicated affair, being liquid-fuelled and requiring about 10 large trucks to take it around. It is, indeed, questionable whether the Corporal is suitable for European conditions.
  When the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland was interrupted by the Minister of Defence yesterday, he fell into the trap about tactical nuclear weapons. I believe that there is a great deal of confusion in the minds of many people about the expression "tactical nuclear weapons". Many visualise a small weapon. I have tried to ascertain what is the nuclear capacity of the Corporal which, at the moment, is the only weapon in Western Europe, as I understand. I have not been directly told, but I gather that it has half the capacity of the bomb which was dropped on Hiroshima and has the possibility of even heavier capacity than that. This is not what people generally believe to be a tactical weapon. I hope that the Leader of the Liberal Party, after falling into the trap yesterday, will understand and appreciate just exactly what it might mean.
  A British regiment is being supplied with the Corporal. The House will remember that the original agreement for this was negotiated before the alteration of the McMahon Act. Have we been making our own warheads, or have we obtained warheads from America under the McMahon Act? If so, are they being held under the "key of the cupboard" arrangements similar to the other agreements?
  From what I was able to ascertain when I visited the British Command in Germany last year it is clear that our tactical organisation is such that it envisages the use of nuclear weapons at the first stage. It may be that this conception is being departed from, but there is no evidence of this departure in the White Paper. Perhaps the Minister has to some extent departed from it, but the White Paper contents itself with being a progress report, which it really is not.

  1307
  While the Minister and the Government have that conception, it is not the view held by the German military authorities. There is no doubt that they appreciate the need for nuclear weapons, but they stressed to those of us who were there the very real danger of local conflicts where nuclear weapons would not be appropriate. This, of course, raises the whole question of control of these weapons, a matter dealt with in an excellent report by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) to the Council of Western European Union, in Paris, last December, in which he distinguished between the first tactical use and subsequent use of these weapons. He dealt with the matter admirably yesterday.
  The Minister of Defence mentioned in his speech last year two possibilities which might lead to conflict—first, miscalculation, and, secondly, accident. Any danger arising from miscalculation he is certainly anxious to avoid. I was impressed by the attitude on this of those in charge of Strategic Air Command in the United States. They were anxious to get as much publicity as possible for their great capability to deliver the bomb. They wanted to make sure that there was no doubt whatever in anyone's mind about that, but now that Russia, also, has this massive nuclear potential, opinions differ on the question of the will and determination necessary to use it.
  However, the problem of accident remains. I am not dealing with the idea that someone might go mad and loose off one of those weapons, nor the possibility of a British or American crew suddenly dropping a nuclear bomb. Those of us who were fortunate enough to visit Omaha, in Nebraska, the headquarters of the Strategic Air Command, were much comforted, if that is the right word to use in this connection, by the infinite care and precaution taken by those in Charge and how deeply conscious they are of the grave responsibility lying on their shoulders. While armed forces are facing each other across the frontier, the possibility of incidents of a minor character due to errors of judgment or over-enthusiasm, and not intended as a step to full-scale aggression, cannot be totally discounted.
  When I was in Germany, last summer, I learned that Russian troops had been alerted, all leave cancelled, and reserves
  1308
  brought up after a few of their officers in jeeps had been motoring in the vicinity of the frontier. It is not impossible to envisage that some such set of circumstances or civilian disturbance may provoke a local incident. This is something that those who so far have bitterly opposed any form of disengagement might ponder. I trust that hon. Members opposite will be careful of what they say about disengagement in this debate.
  The Prime Minister is now in Russia. I am sure that we all wish him well. But if there is to be a successful outcome from his visit, it can only come, in my view, from the adoption of a plan such as that put forward from this side of the House. As the Tories have already adopted so many of our ideas, I would not be at all surprised if they adopted this one and claimed it as their own.
  What is our aim in Europe? What are we trying to do? If we are anxious to be in a position of strength, to be capable of ensuring a pause so that consultation may take place before the holocaust of nuclear destruction comes upon us, if we wish to be in a position in Europe with some nuclear capability to act as a deterrent against major attack, we should examine more closely what strength we have in Europe and what steps we should take. Have we got our priorities right?
  It will be recalled that at the time of the Lisbon session of the North Atlantic Council, in 1952, the military assessment was that 90 divisions were required for the defence of the N.A.T.O. fronts. When it was later decided to make full use of nuclear weapons, the goal for the central front was reduced to 30 divisions. Let us consider what forces we possess. First, the five American divisions are being reorganised and equipped with nuclear weapons, which I take to be the Corporal. I do not want to say anything about the Honest John, because, as I understand, it is not very likely to land where it is expected to land. I do not know whether or not the American divisions are up to strength, but I doubt whether they are. We have also two combat groups which, in this sense, we might say are the equivalent of a division.
  Belgium has one infantry division. The Netherlands have one division in their own country and hope to have one in Germany in the near future. We all know

  1309
  that France is in a difficult position. The major part of her army is tied up in North Africa. The two divisions which she has in Germany are very much under strength, and no progress has so far been made with the reorganisation. Germany's strength is now approaching seven divisions, but there is a serious shortage of officers and N.C.O.s, while the equipment is that which was given to them by the Americans and is now obsolete. We ourselves, together with Canada, are still said to have four divisions, but it is certainly much less. They are under strength and I will have something to say about their equipment later.
  Taking the most optimistic view, then, there are, roughly, 21 divisions, which are very much under strength and not many of them battleworthy, out of the 30 divisions which are regarded as essential. This is not a comforting picture, but it is one which the House and the country ought to know about.
  It is against that background that we see the problems which any Minister of Defence has to face. In my view, there is quite insufficient capability here for dealing with anything in the grey area, which was discussed so much last year. The Minister of Defence so far—and I say "so far"advisedly—has deliberately chosen to rely completely on the ultimate deterrent and has shown no initiative to muster the resources of Europe in a joint effort to make N.A.T.O. efficient and effective. He has, in fact, done the very opposite. By his insistence on reducing the British forces in Germany he has undermined the confidence and respect for this country, and, instead of encouraging other European countries to bring their forces up to strength, he has led them on the retreat.
  This is, unfortunately, only one of the sorry incidents in the sad story of our relations with Europe since the war. Our European friends have been anxious that this country should take the lead in so many matters, but their disappointment is even greater in view of the speeches made by the Minister himself and many of his colleagues at Strasbourg when they were members of the Opposition.
  In the debate last year the Minister of Defence said something with which I am sure we all agree. It was:
  1310
  'The conception of separate national defence has been almost wholly replaced by that of a collective security organised through a system of alliances."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 26th February, 1958; Vol. 583, c. 386.]
  However, I was much more impressed with the practical application mentioned in paragraphs 25 and 26 of last year's White Paper. They showed some useful signs of how interdependence and cooperation might work, and they mentioned setting up the appropriate machinery for co-ordination.
  What has happened? If this was supposed to be a progress report, we might have had some information as to what has been happening. Defence is expensive, and the right hon. Gentleman is now very well aware of that. If economy is sought, surely it might be carried out in the sphere of research, development and production of armaments if we can get proper co-operation with our Allies in Europe.
  On reading the reports of the Standing Armaments Committee of the Western European Union, one cannot but come to the conclusion that results so far have been bitterly disappointing. I know about the projects put up to the Standing Armaments Committee by Britain and France, but it is rather late in the day when so much re-equipment is taking place. Different countries work on similar projects and then there are squabbles and arguments as to which weapon should be adopted by N.A.T.O. We all remember what happened about the rifle.
  On Monday, the Minister of Supply was asked why Bloodhound and Thunder-bird were not adopted by N.A.T.O. Of course, he knew the answer and he drew attention to it in his reply to a supplementary question. It should, however, be noted that he made it plain that neither of those two weapons was inferior to the Hawk, which was chosen, but went so far as to say that they were superior. In this, we have lost both ways. There is no contract from N.A.T.O. and the whole burden of development cost has had to be borne by us.
  We can only ask how long this situation can continue; Is it not time that we showed some real political initiative and entered into better association with our European Allies? France, Germany and Italy have entered into a tripartite agreement for research and development and there are other bilateral agreements as

  1311
  well. Instead of this leading towards good will, however, what is happening, in effect, is that it is only creating suspicions. It would be much better if, for instance, proper co-ordination could be achieved through the instrument of the Standing Armaments Committee in Western European Union.
  The continental States agreed some time ago to finance the development of an anti-tank weapon, which is being done by France. When I visited the German army manoeuvres during the summer, I saw this weapon being demonstrated. The military authorities with whom I discussed it were most impressed with its performance. One very high-ranking British officer said to me that this country must have it.
  If the continental States all have a financial interest in its development, as they have, what hope have we of getting our anti-tank weapon adopted by N.A.T.O.? I understand that we are developing, not one, but two of these weapons. What assurance have we that there is no overlapping and waste of effort in all this? In the White Paper which the Minister has presented to us, I have not been able to count exactly, but it seems to me that over 20 projects are being developed, all of them expensive. We ought to be told whether we are bearing the whole of this burden ourselves, or what steps have been taken to try to achieve co-ordination and cooperation with our other Allies in N.A.T.O. to try to share this burden.
  The next question is that of the tank itself. If these anti-tank weapons are as successful as predicted by one of the Ministers now sitting on the Government Front Bench, the tank itself will be obsolete. Can we, however, be told something about the position? I understand that arguments have been going on about this for a considerable time and that a decision has been taken concerning the tank that is to be adopted by the continental countries. I am certain that it is not the British type of tank that is being adopted. We ought to be told what is happening. Is this another occasion when we are going out on a limb and developing another kind of tank altogether which, if it is ever used, will be used in co-operation with our Allies?
  Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) spoke
  1312
  about mobility. Mobility, however, is not merely getting troops from point A to point B. There is more to it than that in Europe. There is the question of supplies and spares. The general idea, I understand, is to have supply depots which will keep units supplied for the first 15 days. Initially, this involves food, fuel and ammunition. The first obvious requirement is to have operational standardisation for the interchangeability of ammunition. How far have we proceeded with this?
  The F.N. rifle has been mentioned so often that I hesitate to mention it again, but, surely, it is urgent to issue standard ·300 calibre small arms to the British forces on the central front, which alone among the Allies is still using the ·303. It is in Germany, I understand, that we have the half of the British forces who do not have the F.N. rifle.
  We have a great problem in getting information. At Western European Union, we discuss these matters. We seek information from the Council of Ministers; but we never get in contact with the Defence Ministers. Although we have useful meetings with the Council of Ministers, we never get very far. The White Paper tells us that our forces in Germany are being re-equipped. Looking at the Estimates, it is difficult to see the provision for this. There was a heavy drop in the Estimates for Army equipment in 1955, with a smaller drop in 1956. Since then, there has been hardly any alteration and the figure for next year is almost the same. We read, however, that Ferret scout cars, Saladin armoured cars and 1-ton armoured trucks are being supplied.
  Can we be told how much of this is standardised equipment for use by N.A.T.O. forces? Commercial-type lorries are also being supplied and in the Army Estimates it is estimated that over 2,800 3-ton trucks have been supplied. I wonder whether they have been built to a standard pattern. Are we standardising our own supplies, or are we instead sending out a few different types of vehicles just to make life more interesting for the troops?
  The arguments about having standard trucks have been going on for the last ten years. I doubt whether we have even yet got any agreement on the interchangeability of wheels.
  Mr. George Chetwynd: The air in the tyres is standardised.
  Mr. Steele: There are many other items that I could deal with. It seems to me that in the last few years we have missed a golden opportunity to ensure co-ordination in these matters. Perhaps the Minister of Supply can tell us something about the position. It would be interesting to know how his Department fits into the picture. Does the right hon. Gentleman have representatives at some of the meetings, or is it left entirely to the generals?
  I turn, in conclusion, to the equipment of our forces in Germany. It may be thought that speeches from this side of the House have dealt more with the Army than with other Services, but in this debate the spotlight should be on the Army. Yesterday, the Minister of Defence tried to make us believe that this lack of modern equipment in Germany was because the troops were using up the equipment which had been over-ordered; that was the impression that the right hon. Gentleman tried to give us. The Grigg Report, however, did not make that point. It stated not only that the equipment was obsolete, but that it was uneconomic. Our charge is that it is not only obsolete and uneconomic, but that it is worn out.
  For my information about this, I shall not quote the Grigg Committee but am indebted to Mr. Harold Evans, of the Manchester Evening News, who made an on-the-spot investigation last December. Here is what he said:
  "If Britain's Army in Germany had to fight tomorrow, many of our soldiers would go into battle with last-war weapons. And 13 years after the end of that war many of those weapons are only fit for the scrap heap."
  Naturally, he draws attention to the fact that it is five years since it was decided to adopt the F.N. rifle. In March, 1955, the Secretary of State for War was speaking about the delivery of F.N. rifles to the troops in Germany. They are still not there.
  Mr. Evans then discusses the Sten machine gun, and when I spoke to one of my colleagues in the House about this, he said to me, "They might still have the Sten machine gun, but no intelligent commander would ever allow the troops to load it. "Mr. Evans goes on to deal with signals equipment, and I quote:
  1314
  "Perhaps the most shocking deficiency of all, though, is in Signals equipment, the vital equipment that enables an Army to move as an organised unit. Our signals equipment is junk. Indeed, the obsolete, defective, last-war signals equipment in Germany makes our Army almost a 'blind' Army."
  Then this:
  "Infantry units have sets with a range of only two and a half miles at night. One platooon set is incapable of sending or receiving signals if there are woods or hills in the way, so the commander must make himself a sitting target on high ground. On a recent exercise, the commander was forced to sit on top of a haystack to keep radio contact."
  That is the situation, and he goes on to deal with other equipment in the same scathing terms. In the end, he states that the public has not been given the facts, and that it is time for the good of our Army and the country that the defence costs muddle should be brought out into the open. That, of course, is what we intend to do.
  It was the right hon. Member for Car-shalton who said, in 1955:
  "Our Army, where conventional weapons are concerned, is very well equipped by any standards."
  I wonder whether he is still prepared to make that claim. Is the present Secretary of State for War as confident as he apparently was last year, when he said:
  "The strength of N.A.T.O. troops on the ground is such that it would need a major aggression to overcome them."?—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1958; Vol. 583, c. 665.]
  In what sense would he define the term" major"in this connection?
  Over the last five years, nearly £8,000 million has been voted for the defence Services, or about £32 million a week. The War Office share has fallen, and the amount for the Army's equipment has gone down by 65 per cent. over the past five years. Can we ask the Minister of Defence whether he has sacrificed the Army and left this country with only the threat to commit suicide as a means of national defence? As The Times rightly said yesterday:
  "A threat to commit suicide is not a rational defence policy."
  The Minister might say that we are asking for larger sums of money to be spent. Let me say right away that we are not. What we are asking is whether he has got his priorities right. For instance, was it right to authorise all that money

  1315
  for the completion of the three cruisers, about which I have already asked questions, and which has never been justified? Then there is the expense associated with the building of the two high-test peroxide submarines, which will never have any operational value, and there are other things as well that I could mention. Has all this been done at the cost of the sacrifice of the Army? Now, we are in a situation in Europe in which, because of the false assessment of the Minister of Defence of the place of nuclear weapons in our defensive strategy, we have to rely on the ultimate deterrent.
  That is a situation of great danger, and that is why we shall divide the House tonight.
  4.25 p.m.
  The Minister of Supply (Mr. Aubrey Jones): The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) closed his speech by repeating what was the main thesis advanced yesterday by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), and, in different tones, by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond).
  Despite the different degrees of emphasis, the right hon. Member for Belper, who moved the Amendment to the Motion yesterday, said substantially the same thing—he used the words which have just been spoken by the hon. Gentleman opposite—that preparedness for a limited war has been sacrificed for the sake of the nuclear deterrent, and that there was, therefore, an over-emphasis on the deterrent and an under-emphasis on preparations for a limited war. Indeed, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland used the word "obsession" in connection with the deterrent.
  This is the common theme advanced by both parties. There is also this other affinity between the speech of the right hon. Member for Belper and that of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, that both of them, while considering that there had been this over-emphasis on the deterrent, were, none the less, reluctant to say that this country should withdraw totally from the deterrent. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman made this quite specific. He wished to see a British contribution to the deterrent, but the speech of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland was not quite so specific;
  1316
  but he said on more than one occasion that he would wish to see, or would not be averse to seeing, a contribution by this country in the way of research.
  This is a most important thesis; all the more important because it has been given a wider circulation outside this Chamber. It is a serious thesis, and I shall try to deal with it with all the seriousness which I think it deserves. I only hope that in trying to deal with it thus, I shall not fall into complacency. It is all too easy for outside critics to suggest that everything in this field is wrong and defective, and it is a temptation to any defender against such citicis to try to leave the impression that all things are right and perfect. Clearly, this field is so full of unknowns and uncertain perils that nothing can be perfect. I will do my best to avoid that pitfall.
  While saying that, I should also like to say that the main thesis advanced seems to me to be too simple. I think that it does violence to the complexity of the problem with which this country is faced. I think, first. that it underrates the preoccupation which the Government have with limited war. I think, secondly, that it assumes much too easily that a switch of emphasis is possible, that some reduction of the emphasis on the deterrent is possible, while, at the same time, keeping the contribution to the deterrent a worthwhile contribution; and I will later suggest why that assumption, which was never examined by anybody yesterday, seems to me to be a highly questionable one.
  If I prove that case, and if we are of the view that a limited war deserves still greater preparations, the only answer to the problem, short of increasing the total of the military budget, which nobody suggests, is abandoning the British contribution to the deterrent altogether. Certainly, as far as the Amendment is concerned, there is, at any rate, reluctance, and a greater reluctance on the part of the hon. Gentleman, to face this. I will deal, first, with the preparations for limited war.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: The Minister has constantly referred to our contribution to the deterrent. I could understand the case for an independent deterrent, but what is this about a contribution to a deterrent? The Americans do not want a contribution from us.
  Mr. Jones: I will deal with that later. I shall not shirk it, but I want to deal with it in its proper place and to deal with the three questions I have mentioned in their proper order.
  The right hon. Member for Belper spoke yesterday of the increased danger of limited war, as a result of the nuclear parity between West and East. Of course, one accepts that. The main danger over the last few years has been one of limited war, even in the time of Western nuclear superiority, and in an age of nuclear parity that danger is made more acute and is a danger to which we as a country are particularly sensible. What I cannot accept is that no account has been taken of it and in that context I want to consider the three Services in turn, beginning with the Army, because, of the three Services, it is the Army which most comes into this question.
  The right hon. Member for Belper tried to relate the problem of Army equipment to changing Defence Ministers, and so on. The problem is much deeper than that and is one which is quite unrelated to changing Conservative Defence Ministers, and quite unrelated even to changing Governments. There is something here which is deeply embedded in tradition. The weapons of the Army, by tradition, change but slowly. The rifle before the F.N. rifle goes back to-the First World War. The machine gun goes back to that war and the 25-pounder gun goes back to 1938. I do not say that we should passively accept it, but there is latent in things a certain slowness of change in Army equipment.
  There may be two reasons for that. The first is that since the weapons are old the scope for current improvement is limited and inducement to change is, therefore, not as great. Secondly, the weapons of the Army, to a much greater degree than those of the Navy and Air Force are either personal weapons of the individual soldier, or are introduced on a considerable scale and are made universal for the entire Army, with the result that the process of re-equipment is expensive and protracted. That is traditional, but a fact which received insufficient consideration yesterday is that we are now entering on a phase of considerable change. It is not an exaggeration to suggest that never will the
  1318
  Army have seen such a concentrated phase of renovation and re-equipment as it is now about to see over the next two, three or four years.
  Mr. John Strachey: The right hon. Gentleman has said that Army equipment has not changed for traditional reasons. In that case, will he explain why the Minister of Defence gave us an entirely different reason yesterday, when he said that it was that we should use up the stocks of existing weapons for reasons of economy? While we could understand that, we did not agree with it. However, the right hon. Gentleman's reasons why he could not introduce the new rifle or other new weapons—because the Army was so traditionally-minded — entirely conflict with that view.
  Mr. Jones: There is nothing incompatible in that. I am suggesting that there is latent in things a slowness of change and that that latent characteristic was aggravated by the desire to trade on the stocks accumulated as a result of Korean rearmament.
  By the early 1960s, the rifle will be completely new. The machine gun will be a new one and it will be a machine gun of continental adoption. The mortar will have been displaced, I hope, by the light pack howitzer which we are trying out and which will be droppable by parachute. We have a new tank gun coming into production this year—it is in production now—the 105mm. tank gun. Without exaggeration, I suggest that this gun—and I do not wish to indulge in hyperbole—is the best of its kind in the whole of the Western world, and we have strong hopes that continental countries will standardise on it.
  Mr. Paget: Will the right hon. Gentleman say that for any weapon which we have?
  Mr. Jones: I do not claim that for all the weapons we have, but I claim merit for certain of the weapons we have. The best thing I can do is to invite the hon. and learned Gentleman to await the outcome of the discussions now taking place about this gun. Let us put what I am saying to the proof of the event.
  With vehicles, we are developing a new medium tank, the 45-ton tank. The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West asked

  1319
  me what was happening in the way of standardising with continental tanks. A 30-ton tank is being mooted—I put it no higher than that—on the Continent and there are conversations and exchanges of information between ourselves and the continental proponents of the lighter tank, but it is much too early to say whether the continentals will take our 45-ton tank, or whether we shall see fit to adopt their lighter tank.
  The Ministry of Supply is developing a much lighter tank which will be air transportable, I hope, the first tank of its kind to be air transportable. We are developing—and the development has gone a very long way—an armoured tracked personnel carrier for accompanying infantry troops to the scene of battle, as well as a cargo carrier for the Royal Armoured Corps. We are developing lighter and improved mobile versions of the infantry anti-tank weapon, and, in addition, we are now conducting trials of the Australian anti-tank weapon, the Malkara.
  The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West referred to the French weapon, the S.S. 10 or S.S. 11. By and large we feel that the Malkara is more powerful than the French weapon. The Malkara is a child, an offspring, of Anglo-Australian parentage in that it is the outcome in the long-term of the Australian rocket range at Woomera. It was the establishment of that range which introduced Australia to guided weapons and inspired the Australians to develop a guided weapon of their own. We have not finally decided to adopt that weapon, but the preliminary trials are being singularly successful and I congratulate the Australians on a most remarkable achievement.
  I could continue to add to this list.
  Mr. George Brown: List of what? Not one of these things is anywhere near going into production. In most cases the Government have not yet even decided which weapon to adopt. A list of what?
  Mr. Jones: I have listed things, weapons and equipment, coming into service over the next two, three or four years.
  Mr. Brown: The right hon. Gentleman said that the Government had not yet decided about adopting some of them. How can he say that they are coming into service in the next two or three years?
  Mr. Jones: Very well, I will make a correction and say items in a list which should be coming into service, and other items of which I have strong hopes that they will come into service. Indeed, I would not be so bold as to mention them if my hopes were not substantial.
  The question which right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are really seeking to ask is: why has this happened now and not before? The answer is that the prompting factor is the change from National Service to a volunteer force. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] Yes, the very size of a conscript force makes the question of equipment very much more expensive and holds it up. With the removal of that impediment, the opportunity of change is being seized. What right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are not recognising is that when National Service is ended the Army will be well advanced towards the complete refurnishing of equipment.
  Mr. Frank Beswick: Would the Minister like to contradict what he has said? Otherwise, it will make an unfortunate impression upon many National Service men. What he implied was that National Service men can make do with inefficient weapons.
  Mr. Jones: Frankly, the hon. Gentleman is being most unfair. No one has pleaded more than right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite for economies in defence. They cannot have it both ways.
  Let us move on to the Navy—
  Mr. Frederick Mulley rose—
  Mr. Jones: No, I must get on. I have given way generously. I am dealing with preparedness for limited war, which has been contested from the other side of the House. Let us look at the Navy.
  The main rôle of the Navy at present, whatever the future may hold, is the limited war role. First, there is the air equipment, for which my Department is, in the main, responsible. The air rôle of the Navy is to provide air strike support and air cover for ground forces from

  1321
  mobile bases at sea, pending the establishment of bases on land—a limited war role. The new weapon for the strike support rôle is the N.A.39, which is going well, and for the air cover rôle there is the Sea Vixen, coming into service this year.
  Then there is the submarine threat. We hear a great deal about the numbers of Russian submarines which might one day haunt the Atlantic. I am not sure that the more immediate threat is not represented by the numbers of submarines which are being passed by the Russians to other countries, including, for instance, the Mediterranean countries. This is a limited war threat and the answer to it is a combination of surface vessel with helicopter. The surface vessel, the antisubmarine frigate, is coming into service and the Wessex will be coming into service next year.
  In the longer term the nuclear submarine may well be the answer to the submarine. I was asked yesterday evening by my 'hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Sir W. Anstruther-Gray) when the keel of the Dreadnought "was likely to be laid down. We shall 'be most disappointed if the keel is not laid down within the next few months.
  Let us move to the Royal Air Force. The R.A.F. is a deterrent force, but not exclusively; it 'has a conventional role, too. I think that those who have contended that there is insufficient preparation for a 'limited war have ignored the change of balance between these two roles of the R.A.F. The White Paper for 1957 thas been criticised repeatedly in this debate for laying too much emphasis on the deterrent, but look at the deletions which it made. The projects which that White Paper deleted from the research and development programme were all, in fact, deterrent projects. They were the supersonic bomber and the supersonic fighter, intended to defend the deterrent bases in this country. The new aircraft, the T.S.R.2, is not a deterrent weapon. It is not a bomber in the conventional sense of the word, but an aircraft intended to give strike support to ground forces in Europe and overseas.
  Mr. Roy Mason: We are of the opinion, in spite of what the right
  1322
  hon. Gentleman has said, that the T.S.R.2 is a supersonic manned bomber. Is he telling us that this new aircraft will not be able to carry an atomic or a megaton bomb, or even a stand-off bomb, which in itself is part of the deterrent in any of those roles?
  Mr. Jones: I am saying that the T.S.R.2 is not a strategic weapon. It is a tactical weapon. What is more, it is a tactical weapon devised not only for European use but also for overseas use. If we look at the past aircraft of the R.A.F. we shall find that they have all, without exception, been designed to use runways in this country, and that subsequently use has been made of them overseas. But in the T.S.R.2, for the first time in the history of the R.A.F., we have an aircraft designed from the beginning to make use of rudimentary airfields overseas, in other words, to cope with limited war. My right hon. Friend was charged yesterday with delay in deciding on the T.S.R.2. The reason for the delay was the redesigning of the aircraft to make it suitable for limited war contingencies overseas.
  Exactly the same is true of the Swallow aircraft, which was cancelled in 1957 because it was related to the supersonic bomber. It was a post-supersonic bomber. The case for having it in the research programme now is that we shall have to study its applicability to the strike role, whether that rôle be performed by the R.A.F. or the Navy. It is not true that no thought is being given to limited war.
  The real question which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper posed yesterday was: can we increase our preparation for limited war without adding to the cost of the total budget? Clearly, the only way of increasing preparation for limited war consistently with the present total budget is by taking it away from the deterrent.
  I suggest that this reduced emphasis on the deterrent is not practicably compatible with a worthwhile deterrent, and the right hon. Member for Belper was falling into the confusion of not recognising the different time scales involved. We have the V-bombers, both in the strategic and limited war rôles. The question at issue is: do we have a strategic weapon to come after the

  1323
  V-bombers? This is the intermediate range ballistic missile. We cannot make a contribution to the nuclear deterrent which is less than one weapon.
  That is the answer to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Orkney and Shetland. The only way of reducing the contribution to the deterrent, short of abolishing the weapon, is to do what the hon. Gentleman suggested, content ourselves with research. I invite him to talk to any scientist. In these matters, academic science which is not, at the end of the day, related to a concrete project always runs into the sands and is never worth while.
  I do not know whether, for instance, the hon. Gentleman has seen the Canadian military research effort, which is devoted entirely to fundamental research. There is no great development of weapons. That effort enables the Canadians to assess the value of new weapons coming across the border from the United States, but it does not enable them to build any weapon of their own.
  Mr. G. Brown: Is the Minister referring to me?
  Mr. Jones Mr. Jones indicated dissent.
  Mr. Brown: But that is the answer to my question. The answer is, as I understand him to say, that if we do not go ahead now with Blue Streak, we must at some stage be without a vehicle for delivering the ultimate deterrent. May I ask the Minister what time scale he is taking in this matter? How long does he expect V-bombers, plus the stand-off bomb, to be relevant, because my case was that we might by that time have an alternative available to the Blue Streak, with a much more invulnerable solid fuel rocket?
  Mr. Jones: I cannot breach security by mentioning the dates. The right hon. Gentleman suggested yesterday that we could have a cheaper deterrent by undertaking development of a solid fuel missile. There is no ground at all for assuming that a solid fuel missile would be in any way cheaper than a liquid fuel missile.
  Mr. Brown: It would be cheaper than both and much less vulnerable than the static liquid fuel rocket.
  Mr. Jones: My right hon. Friend will deal with the political aspects of that. I am dealing with the technical aspects. If we wish to switch emphasis, the only practical way of switching it is by baling out of the deterrent altogether.
  Mr. J. Grimond: I bow to the right hon. Gentleman's superior knowledge of the possibility of research, but I have been advised by people with quite a reputable knowledge of this matter that perhaps a contribution might have been possible. But if it is not possible, or not wanted, we are willing to bale out of the deterrent, as the right hon. Gentleman puts it.
  Mr. Jones: I appreciate that the hon. Member is prepared to go to the ultimate extreme and cancel the whole thing and have no British contribution to the deterrent. My right hon. Friend will be dealing later with the political and strategic implications of that.
  Mr. Paget rose—
  Mr. Jones: I am sorry, but I really have been very generous in giving way.
  I should like to make one technical point on this subject, because it is relevant to the most moving speech made yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head). All this business of rocketry is new and is developing fast. If we in this country are not in this field now, the chances are that we shall never be in it. I do not think that we ought lightly to contemplate complete and lasting exclusion from a new and most important field. My right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton, in a speech with which I practically entirely agree, said that Blue Streaks were irrelevant to the cold war.
  Mr. Antony Head: I am sorry—
  Mr. G. Brown: The right hon. Gentleman should not make the Minister of Supply now disagree with him.
  Mr. Head: What I said, in what I admit was a rather stupid analogy, was that looking at defence as a whole I would swop a £5 million education scheme in Kenya for a couple of Blue Streaks. That was my only mention of the Blue Streak. I did not say that the Blue Streak was irrelevant. I said that

  1325
  we had to be careful not to overlook other aspects.
  Mr. Jones: I am sorry if I was unfair to my right hon. Friend. It was not my intention.
  If we look at the whole Russian armoury for the cold war I suggest that the most potent and important weapon in that armoury is the Sputnik. Let right hon. and hon. Members just imagine the effect on the minds of people in underdeveloped countries of advertisements appearing in the newspapers that on this and that fixed hour the satellite will appear in the sky. This has immense influence in the cold war.
  I go so far as to suggest that Russian lunar probes, and so forth, are done half the time not with a scientific intent at all. They are done for—I can think of no better word—propaganda effect. I do not suggest for a moment that we should ape the Russians in this. It would be quite absurd. But this is a technological age. Technological achievements contribute a great deal to the standing and regard in which a country is held in the world and we ought not lightly to turn our backs on these new technological developments.
  The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland assumes much too lightly and too glibly an antagonism between the British contribution to the deterrent and the American deterrent. I suggest to him that he ignores the significance of what is possibly the most important event in the whole field of defence in the past year. I refer to the exchange of information between the Americans and ourselves on nuclear warheads. What happened on the morrow of the war? We each went our separate ways. Then, in the light of tremendous Russian technological advance we see the need for cooperation and interdependence and we begin to talk. In the course of talks it is recognised that we have accomplished in this country, on slender resources, something of note. We have something to contribute and, as a result, the barriers to exchange of information are let down. The consequence is that joint accomplishment will be better than that of either of us taken singly. This is no longer a duplication of American effort. It is a reinforcement of a joint technology.
  I suggest that exactly the same is true of the intermediate range ballistic missile.
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  They have in the United States Thor and Jupiter, single-stage missiles of very limited range. Beyond that, there are the multi-stage missiles of much greater range. What the Americans have not got is a single-stage missile, intermediate between those two ranges, and that is what Blue Streak is. It is not a duplication. It is, once again, a reinforcement.
  It is pertinent to remind hon. Members or the history of American intermediate range ballistic missiles. Thor and Jupiter were developed by the Americans specifically for use on the European continent. They have a limited life. They must one day have a successor, and the Americans have indicated that they do not propose themselves to develop a successor. They look to us or to the European continent.
  The most practical way of developing a successor for the European continent is, therefore, our effort, Blue Streak, on which we have invited and invite European co-operation. I do not see how we can lightly turn round to the United States and say, "No, we have not the talents, nor the skills, nor the resources to do this. We must look to you to develop something in addition to what you are doing."
  I do not think that it is irrelevant to remind the House of an account in the first volume of General de Gaulle's memoirs of a conversation which he had in the air raids of 1940 with my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill). Both were speculating on the possibility of America entering the war and General de Gaulle said that when France had collapsed the United States, at the hour of her collapse, had held out no helping hand, and he feared that the same might happen in this country. My right hon. Friend replied to him, "No that is not so. She will extend a helping hand because we shall stand firm".
  I do not think that that is irrelevant in the present context. The relevance is surely that we can count, and we are entitled to count, on the staunchness of the American alliance only in so far as we contribute to it. To say to the Americans, "You make all the efforts" is calculated more than anything else to weaken the alliance between this country and the United States.
  Sir James Hutchison: My right hon. Friend has just

  1327
  made a most interesting point on the question of the development of Blue Streak and co-operation from the Continent. Could he elaborate, or could his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence tell us more? Will the continental countries agree to it, what form will it take, and will it take place in Britain?
  Mr. Jones: The continental countries —the Western European countries—are still in the throes of considering what form their intermediate range missile shall take. I am not, therefore, in a position to announce any outcome to the invitation which I have described.
  Before I leave the deterrent, I should like to say a few words about defence against the missile. Throughout military history the offensive has, at intervals, gained the advantage over the defensive, and at the end of the day ultimately the defensive has always caught up. The great question is whether history is to repeat itself in the case of the ballistic missile, or whether, for once, it is to be completely overthrown.
  Is all previous history now to be disregarded? A few years ago most people would have been inclined to say" Yes. We are in a new epoch. History will never repeat itself." I do not think that we can say that now. I do not think that we can say that it is impossible to devise a defence against the ballistic missile. It will mean an immense amount of research and development and, so far from doing this independently of the United States, we are in the middle of working out a co-operative programme with them.
  Mr. Grimond: With reference to the point raised by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison), do I understand that there is to be some collaboration between ourselves and the continentals? If so, what form will it take? The Minister said that we could not have such collaboration with America in the development of missiles, but apparently we can with the continentals.
  Mr. Jones: I was trying to say that we have invited co-operation on this matter from the European countries. They are still examining what would be the best form of missile for them. At the moment, I cannot go beyond that. I can say that there is a co-operative
  1328
  effort both in regard to the missile and the anti-missile.
  Mr. Beswick: Where?
  Mr. Jones: I do not wish to repeat what I have been saying. I say that in the field of anti-missile defence we are in the middle of drawing up a co-operative programme of research and development with the United States.
  I do not wish to intrude into the political and strategic problems which will be the subject of a later speech by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence. I would say one thing, however. Granted the possibility of a defence against the missile, it is not too early to take counter measures. Counter measures mean the insertion in a missile of jamming equipment able to embarrass any possible defence. For this reason we must have range, and the one case for a missile fired by liquid fuel as against the one fired by solid fuel is its superiority in range, in the present state of knowledge.
  I have talked purely of weapons and have kept off the subject of manpower because it is not relevant to my Department. I want to say a word about the men behind the weapons, however—the scientists in the Ministry of Supply establishments. My right hon. Friend has given most encouraging accounts of recruitment to the Armed Forces. I cannot be quite so encouraging about the recruitment of scientists to the Government's defence establishments. I have had no Grigg Report on this matter; I can offer no improvements in pay or amenities. What I can offer are opportunities of research which are unrivalled in this country—and I hope that people will take advantage of them.
  My case is that the principal danger is that of limited war. This must be the main preoccupation in our minds. In addition, however, in respect of the deterrent we ought to make the contribution which our talents entitle us to make, and which the precarious position of the entire Western world obliges us to make. The thought behind the speech of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland yesterday was that any British contribution to the deterrent was a policy of vainglory—of pride and arrogance, and he said that we risked overtaxing our resources.
  I am not unsympathetic with that point of view. Naturally, we must not overtax

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  our resources, but I am not sure that that is the main danger confronting us. I sometimes ask myself whether a greater danger is not precisely the opposite one, of falling into the habit of saying that we cannot afford this or that new piece of technology. Clearly, the more we say that we cannot afford this or that piece of greatness the more certain it is that we shall lose any greatness that we now have. The real answer, which lies somewhere between the two alternatives, is a balanced policy, and it is that balanced policy which has been the consistent policy of Her Majesty's Government, and which I commend to the House today.
  5.5 p.m.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: The organisation of defence is a complex affair. It can prove very costly; it can involve considerable waste and it can undoubtedly create a great deal of confusion. That confusion has been in evidence during the course of this debate. Unfortunately, the Minister of Supply has made no contribution towards clearing it up. To my mind an appropriate comment upon his speech would be, "Don't shoot the man at the piano; he is doing his best."
  If there was any justification for the Labour Party Amendment it was embodied in the right hon. Gentleman's speech. Before I come to what I regard as the main theme of the debate, however, I want to say a word about the Amendment. I have a tiny reservation to make, in respect of the word "coherent". I heard a great deal about this word yesterday. No doubt there are various interpretations of it. This morning, in order to illuminate my mind, I turned to a well-known dictionary to ascertain its precise meaning, and I gathered that it meant "sticking together". I do not think that hon. Members on this side of the House have any complaint to make about the Government in that respect. If there is one factor which is evident in their policy, demeanour and general behaviour it is their determination to stick together at all costs—and none more so than the Defence Ministers, arrayed in solid phalanx on the the Government Front Bench.
  Some time ago I ventured the opinion that the Ministry of Supply should be abolished, and I am more than ever
  1330
  convinced of the need for that after listening to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not say a word in derogation of his competence. No doubt he is a very competent person. I say that quite sincerely. Hon. Members on this side of the House recognise ability on the opposite benches whenever it is in evidence. It is infrequently seen there, but when it imposes itself upon us we recognise it, and even go so far as to appreciate it. But if there is one villain of the piece on the Front Bench opposite it is the Minister of Supply. Who has been spending all the money in the last seven or eight years? The Amendment says that £11,000 million has been spent on defence. The right hon. Gentleman can correct me if I am wrong, but I hazard a guess that of that £11,000 million spent by the Government for the purposes of defence since 1951 more than £6,000 million has gone on research and production.
  What have we got for it? We have a progress report. It may be that the Government can furnish evidence of defence assets about which we have little or no information. Let us have the information not in a general form, not a dose of generalisations and, in particular, not about our prospects, but about how the money has been spent in the last seven or eight years.
  Here I want to make a digression. During the debate yesterday there were several interesting speeches, most of which I heard myself and all of which I have read. Among them was a speech by the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett). He is a most amiable person, but he delivered a fiery broadside at the Labour Party and, by implication, at the Labour Government. Perhaps I had better quote what the hon. and gallant Gentleman said. It would be most interesting if only it were accurate. He cannot get away from it; it is on the record. There may be an extenuation for his conduct, but here is what he said in a reference to the Opposition Amendment:
  "That is a piece of effrontery if ever there was one"—
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Shinwell: I am very grateful for that contribution. Perhaps it might have

  1331
  been deferred until the end of the sentence.
  "—coming from a party which at no time produced any form of policy for defence."
  He went on to say:
  "I do not entirely blame them, because it was not easy to do it, but the fact remains that they did not do it. Coming from a party which allowed money and manpower to run to waste like water during their administration and which left us with a defence policy which, if it had been allowed to continue, would have committed us to expenditure far more than anything which is contemplated today, that is a piece of effrontery."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February. 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1200–1.]
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite ought to be ashamed of themselves. What are the facts? The Labour Government from 1945 until its disappearance in 1951 never spent more than £800 million annually, about one-half of what has been spent annually since 1951. We met, at the same time, every one of our commitments in the Berlin airlift, in Korea, where we made a most effective contribution, and in other theatres where we were committed up to the hilt. I defy contradiction on this issue. I challenge hon. Members opposite to point to a single case where, in the military sphere as regards defence organisation and the application of that organisation, we failed to meet our commitments.
  Vice-Admiral John Hughes Hallett: The right hon. Gentleman may recollect that during the actual years when the Labour Administration were in power they brought down the annual cost to £800 million. I am sure it will also be within his recollection that the moment the trouble in Korea arose—which, after all, so far as we were concerned, was mot a very major war—it became necessary to undertake a rearmament programme which was priced at the time, speaking from memory, at £4,700 million in three years. The reason for this tremendous bill—which did not come in until after the Conservatives came to power and it was our party which had to meet the Bill —was that first things had not been placed first in the years before and £800 million had chiefly gone on welfare and things of that sort and all the essentials of fighting efficiency had been neglected.
  Mr. Shinwell: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is even more innocent than I imagined. He is not aware of the fact—
  1332
  he was not in the House—that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) and other right hon. Gentlemen, some of whom are now sitting opposite, demanded of the Labour Government that they should spend more on defence. Nor is he aware that we introduced National Service, took all the risks involved and made ourselves highly unpopular. Over and above that, we embarked on the three-year programme not only because of the Korean affair but because of high tension in Europe, which was admitted by everyone in the House at that time and by the public outside. That is why it was done.
  If we had not undertaken that task, would it have been possible to proceed with the rearmament programme? Of course not. We in fact laid the foundation of the rearmament programme largely at the behest of the Tory Party and its leaders, and for the hon. and gallant Gentleman and his accomplices to condemn us for any defect in our defence organisation is an effrontery if ever there was one.
  Let me tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I am not particularly proud of what happened. It was forced upon us by events. We would have preferred to spend the money on welfare rather than on defence. We would prefer to do that now.
  I come to the even more interesting speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head). It was a very moving speech. It has been made many times on this side of the House. When it is made on this side of the House it is not news, but when it is made by the right hon. Gentleman, who only two years ago was Minister of Defence and has now seen the light, it is news. Hon. Members opposite almost dissolved into tears when the right hon. Gentleman was making those moving utterances.
  What did they amount to? Spend more money on propaganda? Who is to blame for not spending more on propaganda? The right hon. Gentleman ought to have launched his attack on the ex-radio doctor, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister of Information. Why talk to us about spending more money on propaganda?

  1333
  We would welcome the opportunity of trying to change men's minds to a pattern more in accordance with modern ideas and to win them away from Communist ideology. Of course we would. At the same time, I do not believe for one moment that if we spent more money on propaganda we could in the present high state of international tension afford to neglect our defence organisation or refuse to meet the expenditure involved.
  Now I come to my main theme and I ask the forgiveness of the House for having made those digressions. That theme is how to strike a balance between the provision of nuclear weapons and conventional forces and weapons. I admit frankly that it is very difficult to undertake a task of that kind. It is easy enough to criticise the Minister of Defence and undoubtedly he is deserving of criticim under several heads. But it is a different matter when one is inside the Department and faced with an array of designers and others who seek to modify schemes and blueprints and concepts which are at first acceptable to everybody. Otherwise what is the use of having designers—particularly in the Ministry of Supply—or scientists, Who are as changeable even as members of the Government? That is the problem. What are we to do about it? In which basket are we to lay our defence eggs?
  Are we to abandon the deterrent entirely? That is not the position of the Labour Party. The official policy of the Labour Party is to stand by the provision of a deterrent. Our Amendment is not a pacifist Amendment, despite the fact that there are many pacifists in our ranks with quite genuine convictions which we respect. We stand by the deterrent, but not because we like it—it is a ghastly affair as well as a costly affair. We should like to abandon it immediately if we could. But in view of this tension, in view of the threat and the possibility of aggression and the insecurity which imperils us all, how is it possible to abandon even a modest contribution to a deterrent against aggression? We do not believe that it can be done. But we are entitled to know what is being done. That is the criticism we level against the right hon. Gentleman.
  What are we spending? Take, for example, the Ministry of Supply Estimates for last year. We have not got the Estimates for this year. Those Estimates
  1334
  reveal some surprising figures. I find that purchases effected by the Ministry of Supply on behalf of the Service Departments—I am not sure that that includes the Admiralty—amount to more than £400 million annually. In addition, there is more than £200 million spent on research and development, and I have no doubt that there are other concealed items. All that vast amount of money has been spent, much of it upon the deterrent. Tell us more about it. I believe that these debates are becoming futile because we cannot get the information to which we are entitled.
  It would be different had the Minister of Defence said, "Do not let us have this kind of debate, this routine, traditional debate. Let hon. Members from both sides of the House who are interested in defence gather round in my Department. Let them interrogate me about what is going on. I will give them all the information I can about Blue Streak and the progress we are making and I will not try to conceal anything. "Then our minds would be enlightened and illuminated. We should be well-informed and, if I may say so—this may apply to me as well as to others—we should not make fools of ourselves by making speeches containing statements regarding the facts which are far from accurate.
  What is happening now? Many of us are in the hands of newspaper defence correspondents. We have to rely on ex-generals, ex-air marshals and ex-admirals, not necessarily in this House but outside, who are so anxious to convey information; and there are those who write books on the subject which create more confusion. The people who know, or who are expected to know, are on the Government Front Bench and, by the same reckoning, we are entitled to know. Otherwise the Government are not justified in asking us to find the necessary finance.
  I am not pleading, as I did during the defence debate last year, for a bipartisan defence policy—far from it. But I do say that we should be provided with more, and adequate information, on matters of defence. I do not believe that any argument can be adduced to the contrary. Therefore, my submission is— it is based on the Labour Party Amendment—that we should spend what we can afford in the provision of the deterrent,

  1335
  but let us be quite sure that we are getting value for money.
  Let us not assume that we can do more than make a very modest contribution to the Western deterrent. Let us not plead with the United States, "We are ready to shelter under your umbrella. "We are on very good terms with the people of the United States and, generally speaking, we are on very good terms with the State Department. But who can tell? Some day there may be some mischief at work, some misunderstanding may arise, some point of disagreement may occur, and we might find ourselves isolated.
  In those circumstances, we cannot afford to rely upon an umbrella provided by the United States. We must stand on our own feet. After all, we are a great nation and a great people, and we still have great potentialities. We can afford to be independent, although not completely independent. Nowadays no nation can afford to be completely independent. We have to rely on the contributions and co-operation provided by other nations, and we must make our contribution, though we do not pretend that it is more than a modest one. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) wish to intervene?
  Mr. K. Zilliacus: Yes, please. I wish to ask my right hon. Friend whether he can suggest in what circumstances this country would use the nuclear deterrent in disagreement with the United States? I cannot imagine any such circumstance.
  Mr. Shinwell: Neither can I, and neither can anybody else. In point of fact, all this is mere speculation by people on both sides of the fence. When my pacifist friends—they are still my friends; at least, I hope so—say that there is no use having a deterrent of that kind because we should never be able to use it and that it would mean suicide, how do they know? They cannot compete with Providence in matters of this sort. On the other hand, how can I tell whether it will be effective at some time? I do not know. I have never tried it. How do I know that the Blue Streak will be effective? I do not know; it is a gamble. All defence is a gamble.
  What is more, there never was a war in the past that was prepared for ade-
  1336
  quately in advance. We seem never to prepare for war until we are in one. It could be the same about the next war if, unhappily and unfortunately, it ever happens. Therefore, my opinions regarding the deterrent are speculation, guesswork and a gamble. It is a kind of insurance policy, to put it no higher, and we have to bear with it.
  A demand was made that we should build up our conventional forces. Yesterday I listened to the speech of the Leader of the Liberal Party. Although I was apprehensive about the revival of the Liberal Party before the speech, after it I felt quite comforted. What nonsense it was. What was the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond)?"Do not go ahead with an independent deterrent, rely on the United States. But, at the same time, make your contribution in finance and research. "In other words, be an accessory both before and after the fact— that is far worse than petty larceny.
  Really, it is too bad for the hon. Gentleman to make that sort of speech. That is not the substance and strength which one expects from a party seeking to revive itself in this country. I am sure that hon. Members opposite must feel gratified after that statement. We, however, should wish well of the Liberal Party. The more candidates the Liberal Party can produce at the next General Election the better our chances will be. I should not mind if they produced a candidate to fight in my constituency. It would add to the gaiety of the election.
  Let us rely so far as we can on a modest contribution to the deterrent and build up conventional forces, but let us face the consequences. We are to have 185,000 men in the Army and probably 300,000 men altogether in the Armed Forces during the next couple of years or so. Their pay and pensions and gratuities are going up and, bless their hearts, they deserve it. What is more, the men are coming in.
  Unemployment has helped recruiting, particularly in some areas. I do not know whether hon. Members representing constituencies in Ulster have noticed the figures, but the largest number of recruits has come from around Belfast where the unemployment figure is about 9 per cent. or something of that kind. That figure

  1337
  is not at all irrelevant. We want the recruits, and whether we get them as a result of unemployment or by the provision of high pensions matters not. We have to build up our conventional forces as best we can.
  What more can we do but make a reasonable contribution to the Western forces? I have said to the right hon. Gentleman many times in this House— and it has been my one complaint all along, when I was Minister of Defence, and Secretary of State for War, and ever since—that we are making a much more effective contribution in men, weapons and finance than any other country in the West, with the exception of the United States. Nobody has any right to complain about us.
  I end on this note. In last year's debate the right hon. Gentleman said what I thought was a fine thing for a Minister of Defence to say. It was a sentiment with which we all agreed. He said "Let us rely less on defence than on the possibility of disarmament and co-operation with other nations. "We may not like what is going on in Russia and their ideology. They may not like what is going on here and dislike our ideology. I know how commonplace it is to say it, but we have to get together and to live together whether we like it or not. The right hon. Gentleman was very wise in that utterance.
  What can we do? Rely entirely upon foreign policy? It is just as well, when we are negotiating with someone, to have something behind us of substance, even if it is only a, cosh, in case we are violently assaulted. The right hon. Gentleman ought to have said in this debate, "I plead guilty. We have not got all that we need, and we have spent far too much money in the last seven years". Whether that is due to having too many Ministers of Defence or to some other cause I do not know. He should have added, "I plead guilty and I accept the Labour Party's Amendment".
  I hope he will take heed of what I am saying. To have this kind of debate is futile when we lack the information. The Minister should get us together, tell us what is going on, and furnish the information. If there is a security risk about it, he can rely on the honour and integrity of hon. Members. I am satisfied about that. Let the right hon. Gentle-
  1338
  man do that. Next year, even under a Labour Government, instead of having the Government's present supporters clamouring for information, let us ensure that all Members of this House are better informed.
  5.34 p.m.
  Sir Fitzroy Maclean: The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) made, as he always does, an extremely spirited contribution to the debate, speaking with the double authority of a former Minister of Defence and Secretary of State for War. But in spite of what he himself said about coherence, I did not think that this speech was one of his more coherent efforts. I agreed with a lot of what he said, but several times he seemed to me to contradict himself.
  One thing I do agree with was that the right hon. Gentleman said about the futility of defence debates. So far as I can remember, defence debates were just as futile when he was Minister of Defence as they are now, and it was just as difficult to get information out of the Government as it was before his time and has been since. Probably that is a very good thing. Specific information on these subjects is probably better not bandied about here or anywhere else.
  I will try to get my teeth into the one fairly solid bit of information which emerges from the present White Paper. In opening the debate, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence said that the White Paper did not contain any new announcement of policy. My right hon. Friend was too modest and was doing himself less than justice. The announcement that the overall recruiting ceiling of the Army was being raised by 15,000 to 180,000 represents a not inconsiderable change of policy. It is true that it is announced in a rather sheepish, hole and corner way. It is described as a method of ensuring that the strength of the Army
  "shall not fall below the planned figure of 165,000."
  Incidentally, one wonders, if this safeguard is necessary now, why it was not necessary when the figure 165,000 was first fixed, in 1957.
  I am glad to say, however, that my right hon. Friend then goes on to announce that the additional men recruited

  1339
  over and above the 165,000" will be used to increase the strength of units overseas and in the Strategic Reserve". I do not want to be a spoil-sport but I only hope that when he gets these extra 15,000 men, whom he said before he did not need, he will not find that the Treasury turns mean about all those extra civilians he is employing and tries to steal these away from him.
  But for those of us who have been urging on my right hon. Friend the need for a larger Army, it would be ungracious to look at this gift horse too closely in the mouth. We should rather welcome it for what it is worth and hope that it will be followed by other gift horses from the same stable.
  It would be dangerous for anyone who has not an expert and up-to-date knowledge of these matters to try to go into too much detail, but I myself feel that the time has come for a reappraisal of our defence policy, which, like most reappraisals, is, I am afraid, bound to be agonising.
  It is no secret that one of the underlying purposes of my right hon. Friend's appointment was a drastic reduction in defence expenditure. Whatever else he has done, he has certainly not achieved that. Defence costs continue to soar. The idea was that the expensive and cumbrous conventional forces should be substantially reduced and replaced by cheap, effective, streamlined nuclear forces. These forces may be streamlined but they are certainly not cheap. There are moments when one wonders exactly how effective they are and whether we are not in danger of being badly left and outclassed in a race for rockets and counter rockets that we cannot really afford.
  A lot has been said about Blue Streak. I wonder whether Blue Streak will ever really come into service. It raises two big questions. First of all, the question of a static system of missiles against a mobile system. I cannot believe that in this island a system based on static missiles can possibly be the right one. In that sort of war we must surely have more room for deployment. Secondly, there is the whole question of the independent British deterrent. There is, I think, a tremendous amount of confusion in everybody's mind about that. There seemed to
  1340
  be considerable confusion in the mind of the right hon. Member for Easington, for all his experience and wisdom. He said that we should make "a modest contribution to the deterrent. "Is that, I wonder, the policy of the party opposite? My right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply also talked about a contribution. But a contribution to the deterrent is not at all the same thing as an independent deterrent. Is this yet another change of policy?
  For my part, I was very glad to hear what the Minister of Supply had to say on the subject of co-operation between this country and America. Certainly the modification of the McMahon Act was a big step in the right direction, and what the Minister of Supply said follows very aptly on what the Minister of Defence said last year on the subject of collective defence. I am sure that is what we should aim at. People say that we are becoming too dependent on America. I think the more real dependence there is between us and America, the more inter-dependence —the more we depend on them and they depend on us—the better it will be for the defence of the West. We should aim at a regular division of labour between ourselves and our American and European Allies. They should make themselves principally responsible for the deterrent and we should make ourselves principally responsible for the cold war, which, after all, when we take into consideration our commitments and our geographical position, is obviously the rôle for which we are best suited.
  The question we should ask ourselves is, "What is it that makes us great; what is it that gives us influence in the councils of the nations?" I cannot believe that anyone in his senses will reach the conclusion that it is mainly a matter of missiles. There are a lot of other things which are much more important. As has been said—and I am glad it has been said again and again in this debate and it was never said better than by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head)—this cold war is principally a war of ideas. It is on ideas that we should concentrate. It is also important that we should be in a position to put across our ideas and, to do that, we must be able to play our proper part in the world, to fulfil our Imperial commitments and our obligations towards our Allies.

  1341
  That is why I hope that the process which has begun with the raising of the strength of the Army from 165,000 to 180,000 will continue. This is only a first step and we should go on until we get an Army of round about 200,000. I am sure, and other people who know much more about it than I do are equally sure, that that is the minimum number with which we can play our proper part in the world.
  What has been worrying me all along, and is still worrying me, is the impression that the size of the Army, which after all bears the brunt of the cold war, is fixed not in regard to strategic considerations, as it should be, but to political considerations. One cannot help feeling that the Government have simply said to themselves, "We have to do away with National Service for political reasons. How many soldiers can we get by voluntary recruitment? "The first guess was 165,000, and so they fixed it at 165,000. After a couple of years the recruiting results—and a very good thing too— turned out a little better than they thought they would. So up went the figure to 180,000. And a very good thing, too. But it still makes one wonder if what we are doing is not to cut our commitments to fit our forces instead of the other way round.
  I hope this gradual process of education which we observe on the Government Front Bench will continue and that in due course the strength of the Army will be fixed where it belongs, another 20,000 or so up. My conviction is that that will do far more than Blue Streak or any other missile to enable us to play our proper part in the world.,
  5.45 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Mason: It pains me more and more every time I listen to these defence debates and to hon. and gallant Members making independent contributions, speaking mainly from their past Service and experience and—with respect—it seems to me, from a selfish point of view, "flogging" their Service lines.
  The hon. Member for Lancaster (Sir F. Maclean) did attempt to stand back a little and to look at the whole situation, but the speeches throughout yesterday, that of the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) particularly, developed the theme that we want more
  1342
  for the Navy, a greater Navy still, irrespective of the plan which may be in mind globally from a defence point of view. The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) deployed the argument that we must have more money pouring in for the production of more aircraft, and so on. Every time he speaks a military man deploys his arguments from a rather selfish point of view.
  I agreed with a lot of what the hon. Member for Lancaster said, particularly about interdependence. The House has not yet had time to debate the agreement we made with America last year for the exchange of atomic energy information for mutual defence purposes, which has joined the two nations, America and Great Britain, in atomic wedlock. The only person to mention it so far, indirectly, has been the Minister of Supply, in today's debate. No doubt the Minister of Defence might elaborate a little tonight on the progress which has been made since we made that agreement seven or eight months ago.
  I, too, feel very strongly about the defence White Paper. I was about to say that no coherent defence policy is embodied in it, but I quickly changed that in view of the intervention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Easing-ton (Mr. Shinwell). There is still no continuing defence policy embodied in the White Paper. If we are to have a defence debate mainly centred on the substance of a defence White Paper we should not get this ragged assembly of progress in specific developments. That is all that this While Paper seems to be.
  The main criticism is that there has been no attempt at all at a global appraisal of our defence strategy, or even the limit of our preparedness either for localised conflict or global, all-out war. As new weapons come into being and techniques change there is continued necessity for some reference to be made to that. In view of the fact that the White Paper is made up only of progress reports of these various developments, we cannot deal with the matter in isolation, but have to look back to previous White Papers to see how they fit in with this one, particularly in relation to developments in other fields.
  I wonder what effect has been made on defence thinking, particularly in the minds of the three atomic Powers following the breakdown of the disarmament

  1343
  talks last year. There were scores of meetings. Hours and hours were spent by the Foreign Offices of the three Governments concerned, like an international game of chess, playing with the lives of many people and the finances of many nations, yet we reached stalemate. I can only assume that because stalemate was the result many of those nations have now decided to speed up their military development. Mainly because the disarmament talks broke down completely, the tempo has increased tremendously and now we are willing to put more money into rearmament than before. That was a factor which encouraged the United States to make the agreement with us on the exchange of atomic energy information during last year. I should like to deal with that a little later, in view of the fact that at no time have we had an opportunity of discussing it.
  There were four cardinal points in the 1958 Defence White Paper, Command 363, which should have been elaborated this year. First, I will refer to our desire to bolster up faith in our alliances, particularly N.A.T.O. Secondly, there was the need to encourage a trend towards greater interdependence, as the hon. Member for Lancaster has just said. Thirdly, there was the need to modernise our action stations at key points on the sea lanes of the world. Fourthly, it is absolutely essential that we should form as quickly as possible a highly trained atomically equipped Strategic Reserve with mobility to travel quickly to any theatre of conflict.
  Those seem to me to be the four key points of the 1958 Defence White Paper, which has been the basis of the five-year development plan by the Government.
  Therefore, I would have thought it essential in the present Defence White Paper to have given us some idea what progress had been made on those four cardinal points in the original Defence White Paper. Those are the aims and desires, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington said, of all people who are interested in the defence of the nation and all its interests overseas.
  However, there is one unpalatable fact which must be faced. Next month we are sending out to Europe for the first time an atomically armed unit. I thought
  1344
  that my right hon. Friend intended to develop this theme. He got to the brink and then paused. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) and one of the hon. and gallant Gentlemen on the other side mentioned it tonight. One of the points which should be aired—and the Minister should have made some reference to it when opening the debate—is the decision that has to be made for using tactical nuclear weapons. The three atomic Powers of the world have spent a large amount of money. They have made rapid progress in research on and development of nuclear weapons. They have been exploiting them by the dozen in the Nevada desert. Within a short distance there have been experiments held with troops at the perimeter of the explosions.
  We have now reached such an advanced stage that we are able to produce atomic artillery of such a size that it can be deployed in the battlefield. A great deal of money has been spent on trying to produce a small nuclear weapon and make it relatively radioactively clean. Having achieved that, it is possible for this type of weapon to be used in local conflict, limited war, and not necessarily to be followed by global thermo-nuclear war.
  We are involved in this. We are ready to send out our first atomic unit to Europe. We shall not have an opportunity of a full defence debate for another eleven months after it has gone. Therefore, we should be told by the Government who will be responsible for pressing the trigger. Will it be a political decision, or are we to delegate now the responsibility to the commander in the field? Will the officer in charge of the unit, recognising the situation and being overwhelmingly attacked numerically by conventional weapons, say, "We have equal power. Because of our strength as an atomic Power, we have a nuclear weapon which can be used and so save the situation."
  When the Americans recently moved into the Lebanon they were armed with an atomic unit. When a situation developed in Quemoy and the Matsu Islands the Americans were armed with an atomic unit. They have already reached that stage. It is our turn next, in a month's time. Therefore, with this force now

  1345
  moving out into the field, the Government should be prepared to make an announcement that the responsibility is primarily that of the Government, or are we now to delegate that responsibility to the commander in the field?
  I believe that it is possible, at some future time, because of the rapid progress that has been made with nuclear weapons, to use them and completely cut out global all-out war. The aim is to try to develop what might be termed in years to come a nuclear grenade. Once that stage is reached, we might as well face the fact that nuclear weapons will speedily oust conventional weapons from the field. In a few years' time they will become just as recognised as the machine gun was recognised in comparison with the bow and arrow.
  That is the trend. I know that I may have a tendency to be pessimistic, but that is the direction in which we are travelling. If we cannot get universal agreement on the renunciation of nuclear weapons, that is how it will go. We have got to the brow on research, and we can see over the plains. We can see now how they will come into war strategy. Naturally, the Americans and Russians now, as with ourselves, are concentrating on field strategy. All our attempts at battlefield plans are concentrated round the use of tactical nuclear weapons. In view of the fact that this unit is shortly to go into the field, I hope that the Minister will spend some time tonight in telling us what he thinks the responsibility of the Government will be as opposed to the officer in charge of the unit.
  There has obviously been a change in defence policy. I say that because of the introduction, contrary to our expectations, of the T.S.R. 2. The Minister of Defence —and I give equal credit to the Minister of Supply—had the foresight and imagination to visualise the trend. The days of manned bombers were numbered. Ballistic missiles and intercontinental ballistic missiles, and so on, were to take their place. Surface-to-air guided missiles would gradually make the bomber obsolete. The Minister of Defence and the Minister of Supply made that quite obvious in 1957, because the guiding theme was given at the same time as the White Paper on defence.
  1346
  The Minister of Supply severely curtailed expenditure on aircraft and engine development. Then the Defence White Paper indicated that the manned fighter was to end with all the models already adopted, and the supersonic bomber project was to be discontinued. There was encouragement to introduce ballistic missiles, nuclear armed, and so on. Then the Minister of Supply let it be known that the aircraft industry must close its ranks and be prepared for a redundancy of 100,000 men. I thought that that was very clear and quite emphatic, and I did not disagree with the whole appraisal of the situation.
  Missiles are coming fairly quickly into the field. We had the V-bombers, armed with megaton weapons. We had the N.A.39. The Lightning was projected and was on the point of being ordered. I thought that all these—the V-bomber force, the N.A.39 with its special rôle and the Lightning fighters—would have been sufficient during the transition period. Obviously, this is a change which has taken place since the Defence White Paper of last year, because the Minister of Defence has recognised, first, that the ballistic missile that we thought a great deal of, the Blue Streak, was not coming along fast enough and, secondly, that we had got Thors in highly vulnerable positions in our island which were in the main untested and that up to date we had no tactical weapons in our Armed Forces.
  Because of those three factors, and because there seemed to be too long a gap between the time when the manned bomber would come to an end and the ballistic missiles were to come into production, the Minister of Defence and the Minister of Supply have changed their minds. This is a change in defence policy. I am very much against the introduction of the T.S.R.2. I thought Chat the N.A.39 could have done the job. We cannot get the T.S.R.2 until 1966 at the earliest.
  Mr. Aubrey Jones: The hon. Gentleman will realise that there is a difference of date between the N.A.39 and the T.S.R.2 of five to six years. There is also a very considerable difference in performance. They are complementary aircraft. They are not competitive with each other.
  Mr. Mason: Yes, I appreciate that, but, having spent some time studying

  1347
  these two aircraft, I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman. The N.A.39 has already been produced, and ordered. It is purely for the naval rôle, but it could have been converted to do a good and useful job for the Royal Air Force at a cost of, at most, £10 million, and it would have been produced for the R.A.F. by 1961. The T.S.R.2 will cost between £50 million and £60 million—and that is a conservative estimate—and we shall not get it before 1966. To me, it is a sheer waste of money. The N.A.39 has been specially developed to evade the radar screen and, as it operates at zero level, it can also evade missiles, and so would have helped in the transitional era—
  Mr. Jones: I do not wish to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again, but he should accept the fact that the adaptation of an aircraft for a purpose other than that for which it was originally intended is infinitely more expensive than is the development of a new aircraft.
  Mr. Mason: I am sorry, but I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman on this. The N.A.39 has been produced, and he knows quite well that only slight modifications would be required to make it acceptable by the Royal Air Force. However, the Air Ministry was absolutely adamant that it would not accept the N.A.39, but wanted a new aircraft.
  All this has stemmed from "Operation Prospect," last year, and it has proved that the Minister of Defence and the Minister of Supply are not the strong men we thought they were—particularly the Minister of Defence. Ever since then, the Minister of Defence, in spite of a staunch, rock-like attitude at the Box, has quivered like a leaf in the wind when he has been in counsel with the Air Ministry chiefs. Otherwise, he would not have given way on the T.S.R.2. He has been stampeded into this change of defence policy by the strength of his right hon. colleagues in the Air Ministry, and of the air chiefs.
  There is no chance at all of streamlining our forces or having unified commands if we have a Minister of Defence who is not strong enough to resist the pressure of his right hon. Friends in debate, and the pressure exerted by the Service chiefs themselves. There is bickering, snarling and wrangling among them
  1348
  all the time. [HON. MEMBERS:"Oh."] That is precisely what has happened.
  Last year, we had a debate on the White Paper on the Central Organisation of Defence. The White Paper itself was inept, insipid, and no progress was made. After that White Paper had been published, the Minister of Defence was left as weak as before. Every Service chief still had the right to the back staircase to the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister still had the right to consult all the Service chiefs. The Minister of Defence lost that battle. He also lost a battle when he was cast aside in a most slurring fashion at the "Operation Prospect" conference.
  The T.S.R. 2 has driven the last nail in the coffin. The right hon. Gentleman has been extremely weak. He has shown a strong attitude in the House—serving the Government, defending his Service Ministers, and so on—but, obviously, one of the reasons why this White Paper gives no continuing defence policy is a change in defence strategy and defence thinking, allowing the T.S.R. 2 to come forward, and not giving the N.A. 39 a chance to perform the Royal Air Force rôle.
  I turn now to Command Paper 470. I give credit to the Minister of Supply as being the only person to mention that White Paper. It details the atomic Agreement between America and Great Britain. I cannot understand why we have not had a debate on it. It is the most promising White Paper on defence that we have had from this Government, but we have had no time to discuss it.
  What do we gain from that Agreement? Article V B says that there is to be no transfer of atomic weapons. I deplore that. The two countries could have learned a great deal from each other in that way. Article III says that we may purchase one submarine nuclear propulsion unit. Article IX says that Britain has to give away to the Americans all the data about the working and efficiency of Calder Hall.
  On that reckoning, not much has been gained, and a great deal appears to have been lost. As to the transfer of weapons, we are obviously still behind the United States. Transfers could have helped us considerably, especially in the tactical nuclear sphere. And I thought that we were developing our own nuclear submarine propulsion unit. I thought that

  1349
  one of our atomic research establishments was now conducting research leading to the production of one of these units. There is an extension at Dounreay solely for that purpose. Therefore, is it necessary, is time so important—'because that is all that we seem to be getting—to buy this unit from the United States of America? When he winds up the debate, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether we are making the expected progress, and how long we are to wait for the unit either to be developed by the Atomic Energy Authority or produced at Dounreay?
  The most valuable part of this agreement is in the article that allows the exchange of information on the development of defence plans. That is very wide, and I should have thought that some reference would have been made to it in the White Paper. It deals with the training of troops with nuclear weapons and their military application within the alliance. It deals, also, with the development of delivery systems of nuclear warheads, and it allows information to be exchanged on the research into, and the development and design of military reactors—which, of course, could include those to be developed for aircraft, ships, submarines and the like.
  It seems strange that though this Agreement has been in existence for eight months, neither the Minister of Defence nor the Minister of Supply has made any reference, either in this debate or in the White Paper, to the progress we are making in this Agreement between the two countries. The Agreement means that there need to be no overlapping at all between the two nations. If it is being worked effectively and to the full, we can cut out wastage of resources. We should have been told, therefore, what is happening. If the Agreement proceeds on the lines desired by the two Governments it will help us considerably to cut back our defence expenditure.
  What is really intended? I ask the right hon. Gentleman the following few questions. First, is this new form of agreement to act as a nucleus within the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation? In atomic matters, such as training, field strategy, and use of atomic weapons, are we to be independent of the rest because they are not members of the nuclear club? What about delivery systems of
  1350
  nuclear warheads and the training of troops in the use of the tactical nuclear weapon?
  To what extent is there to be a merging of American and British troops, and to what extent does the Agreement allow for training fields in Britain or America to be used for this purpose? There are already complaints that we cannot deploy our forces in Germany as much as we should like to. There appears to be scope for that in this Agreement. When agreement is reached on the best means of delivery of the rockets—having Blue Streak particularly in mind—to what extent is there to be agreement on production either here or in America?
  Finally, what about space satellites? If American experiments prove that it is possible to set up a radar screen with earth-space satellites in orbit, are we in agreement on this as well? Do we visualise, for defence purposes, a joint effort in earth-space satellite projects, particularly in developing a radar screen?
  This Agreement could be of great benefit to both countries. It has great possibilities for cementing a better Anglo-American friendship in peacetime than we have had before. As it develops, it can prove to be the basis of an even better Western Alliance of nations.
  6.10 p.m.
  Sir James Hutchison: It is not surprising that a large proportion of this debate has been devoted to something which is causing great anxiety, namely, the question of the deterrent, but it is perhaps a little surprising and, to my mind, extremely gratifying that in our proceedings both yesterday and today there have been references to international bodies, European bodies and assemblies when these grave problems have been discussed. It is this aspect which I wish to discuss for a few moments.
  The more our defence problems become complicated, the more the weapons on which we rely become complicated, the more difficult does it become for us in Parliament and for ordinary people to follow the intricacies of the programmes and the weapons we are considering. It is of the very greatest importance that the public generally should understand these problems, should be able to form an opinion on them, and be able to give

  1351
  the support which any democratic Government requires in any defence policy and, ultimately, in a conflict should one ever come. We are in danger of losing sight of this.
  The international bodies such as Western European Union play what is, perhaps, their most important rôle in this very way. I have learned an immense amount about the attitude of mind and thoughts of those who would be our allies in any conflict on the occasions when I have gone to Paris or Strasbourg to discuss these problems. If one adds to myself the 15 or 16 delegates who go there from each party and then multiplies that by the 15 nations who make their contributions there, and if one assumes that each one of us attends for about three years, one is able to appreciate how important it is in forming public opinion that these bodies should continue and be supported.
  There is at the moment a plan put forward by the Belgian Government that the Assembly of Western Europen Union should be run into the Assembly of N.A.T.O. Parliamentarians which has been meeting unofficially for a number of years. I do not object to this happening. It might be a logical step to take, provided that the N.A.T.O. Parliamentarians' Assembly is vested with the same powers of discussion and debate as the Western European Union Assembly has had.
  It is sometimes thought fashionable to deride these bodies and assemblies because they have no power of decision; they can only debate and recommend. I think it was the late King George V who said that the power of the Monarchy now resided in its right to be informed and its right to criticise. When those rights can be exercised in a public assembly, that assembly has very great power and influence in guiding and forming public opinion on the problems which it discusses, on which public opinion in its turn should be informed and should itself form a view.
  I welcome the remarks which have been made by hon. Gentlemen opposite, particularly by the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele), who opened this afternoon for the Opposition. I welcome also the references made by my right hon. Friend to the complicated
  1352
  story of Blue Streak and other guided missiles. I hope that he will be able to attract our colleagues, our Allies, in Europe into really full co-operation. It is this co-operation which has been lagging deplorably behind.
  I have one or two questions to put about the family of guided missiles which have been produced in this country during the last few years. How many of the weapons which we have produced in Britain have been adopted by our Allies on the Continent? As I remember it, we offered Thunderbird and Firestreak for sale to our continental Allies. Have any of these been sold? We hear of weapons produced by other countries being offered to us, and we hear of our taking and adopting them as part of a policy of standardisation, but we hear very little about any of our weapons being adopted by the United States of America or our other Allies.
  Mr. Aubrey Jones: My hon. Friend has mentioned surface-to-air missiles. I think it was said earlier that Bloodhound and Thunderbird were offered to the Continent. The only continental country to have taken either of them is Sweden, which has taken Bloodhound.
  Sir J. Hutchison: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Apparently, a little is happening in our favour.
  To illustrate what I mean when I say that it is very dangerous if public opinion is not properly informed, I wish to give as an example something which happened in my own constituency in Scotland. At that time, we were discussing the siting of guided missile bases, and there was a certain movement afoot advocating that guided missile bases should not be sited in my country of Scotland at all. I took the opportunity in the House then of saying that I thought that that was a pusillanimous and unfortunate attitude. I said that my country would be ready and, indeed, proud to play its part if— this is the important matter—the Supreme Commander decided that they would be best sited there. Quite a lot of indignation sprang up at this, ending in a petition signed by about 2,000 of my constituents and sent to the Minister of Defence protesting against my words.
  I am perfectly prepared to appreciate that other people have other opinions on these things, but we must remember what

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  it was that these people were protesting against. I can understand that some people may misguidedly believe that there should be no guided missiles and no atomic preparation at all anywhere. But what these people were saying was: "If we are to be defended, others shall defend us. The risk shall be run not by us but by other people". That is an attitude which I simply could not support or tolerate. I am sure that it sprang from a misapprehension, from a lack of knowledge of what the situation was, and from a belief that if we did not have guided missiles in our own country we should be immune from attack, leaving out of account all the other targets against which a guided missile might well be directed by an enemy.
  I give that illustration to show that, if public opinion is not properly informed on these questions both here and abroad, we can find ourselves in a very dangerous situation as a result of lack of democratic support. Ultimately, it is the support of the people in a democracy which is the strength of our resistance and the source of our staying power.
  I have only one other reflection which I would like to offer to the House. It is a rather complicated matter, but I think that it has considerable importance. It concerns the system of what is known as infrastructure payments in Europe. I have always thought that the solution for a European Army was the European Defence Community system and that that would contribute considerably to the strength of the West. Unfortunately, that was voted down and failed in the French Parliament, and Sir Anthony Eden, who was then either Prime Minister or Foreign Secretary—I have forgotten which—set up the Western European Union in its place. The result is that instead of having an Army with a great measure of standardisation, as would be possible in a European Army, we have an Army under a Supreme Commander, General Norstad, in which there is an international command, but each supplying its own equipment, and there is a very complicated and rather expensive situation as a result of that.
  There is one small exception to that system which should be built up and used in a wider variety of circumstances, and that is the infrastructure system of
  1354
  payments. It has been recognised from the beginning that it would be quite unfair to call upon a country, say, France, in whose territory it was clearly strategically important for airfields, missile sites or petrol bases to be sited, to pay alone for the cost of the air bases, airfields and missile bases. Consequently, a system was set up by a formula elaborated by N.A.T.O. under which each of the N.A.T.O. countries would contribute a sum to a common fund so that these items would be contracted for and built or supplied out of this infrastructure fund.
  That gets over many of the difficulties, such as the lack of standardisation, about which I have been speaking. The infrastructure authorities place a contract for the building of airfields or for the supply of equipment anywhere in the world, most likely in Europe, wherever it is cheapest and most efficient.
  We would consequently start by saving money. There would be a form of standardisation and unification of ideas and economy. However, the infrastructure fund is a minute fraction of the present total expenditure on defence. That arises because so far it has been limited to items of defence which cannot be moved. I do not understand, and have never been able to understand, the sanctity of immobility. Why should not we be able to buy other items out of an increased infrastructure fund, even if they are mobile and can be moved? Where is the logic in buying a pipeline for the supply of petrol and oil and refusing to buy the tank wagons which deliver the petrol from the pipeline to the unit where it is to be used? I have spoken to the Supreme Commander on this point. I know that he would be glad to see it expanded. I know that there is a chance, which I hope will be carried through, that when the missile bases are sited they will be paid for out of the infrastructure fund.
  I hope that the Government and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply, who is concerned in this matter, will press for the infrastructure system to be examined with the object of expansion. When the N.A.T.O. Parliamentarians met in Paris last year they passed a resolution requesting N.A.T.O. to set up a working party or sub-committee to examine this point and to produce a report. I do not know whether it will do so, but the Members of Parliament of

  1355
  these countries, including the United States and Canada, solemnly asked that this should be done. I appeal to my right hon. Friend to take such steps which are open to him to impress upon N.A.T.O. the importance which we attach to at least an examination of this system to see whether it can go further.
  In conclusion, I welcome the return to a Regular Army. I believe that this will be more efficient and more economical, because I knew the old Army. I should also like to say that, because I have seen them at close quarters, the lads who did their National Service at a time when we needed them did an extremely good job, and I think that the country is indebted to them. In turn, they are indebted to the country, because practically none of them did not benefit in health, outlook and moral character.
  6.26 p.m.
  Mr. A. J. Irvine: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison), in the earlier part of his speech, reflected upon the relationship that should exist between the military and the rest of the community and considered the problem of defence as an aspect of the activity of a democratic society. That is a broad and interesting subject, and I desire to touch upon it myself in my observations.
  One of the main interests that the people of this country have in defence is whether they are getting value for money. The level of expenditure reaches a point where public opinion wants a quite clear assurance that it is getting value for the vast sums being expended. In this connection I heard with dismay the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Supply. He displayed certain qualities which we are accustomed to expect from him—cogency, coherence and that kind of thing. However, he enunciated a most melancholy catalogue of future proposals.
  The Minister had hardly any account to offer about advantages obtained from vast expenditure already incurred. Like myself, I am sure that many hon. Members on both sides of the House heard his speech with real dismay. He was interrupted at one point and asked to give an explanation why it will be possible to start putting into production and get-
  1356
  ting into service various types of equipment, vehicles, and things of that kind, when apparently it has not been possible to start such production before. The right hon. Gentleman said that it must be appreciated that that was explained by the change from an Army with a large number of National Service men to a small Regular Army. That is the kind of vague, woolly explanation that it is quite wrong to expect the House to accept.
  One of the items of production which the right hon. Gentleman said would shortly come forward if the programme went according to plan was a track troop carrier. Why need the production of a track troop carrier be either retarded or accelerated by the shift from an Army of National Service men to a smaller Regular Army? I do not see cause and effect in that explanation. I am sure that the House will want a far more careful and searching investigation of these matters and a more thorough explanation than it has so far received.
  I have not often intervened in defence debates. What I wish to do on this occasion, in particular, is to try to consider what may be the particular usefulness of these debates, they being the focal point at which Parliament and the House of Commons bring their attention to bear upon matters relating to the Services and to the defence of the country, matters which are of crucial importance to us all. One of the desirable features of these debates is that they provide an opportunity for improving, as it is very desirable that they should improve, the relations existing between the civilian and the military elements in the community. I do not suggest that that relationship is unsatisfactory—I do not think it is. There is a very healthy relationship. All I am saying is that it is important that that should be so and that it should become increasingly so.
  One of the useful things that may emerge from a debate of this kind, and which may appear to the public mind as a consequence, is that there is really close liaison and understanding between the lay and civilian and the military elements in our society. That is a matter which can be advantaged by organisation. Recent changes in the organisation of the Ministry of Defence appear to me to advantage the prospect of good association and relations between these elements. The more concentration there is in the

  1357
  administrative side the less danger there is of misunderstanding.
  We all know how the relations between the civil and military elements were greatly improved in the last war as compared with the war before. That is an improvement which it is very desirable should be maintained and continued and, if possible, carried further. I speak as one of the great number of hon. Members whose experience of military matters was confined to Army service some years ago, and I say this without hesitation as a matter of personal experience, and, I am sure, many hon. Members can say the same: my experience of leaders in Army life during my years in the Army impressed me enormously. I was struck by their ability, their skill and, perhaps pre-eminently, their tact. The treatment by the Regular Army officers of the non-military civilian element coming into a wartime Army was one of the most striking experiences of its kind that many of us have had.
  Not only is that tribute to be paid to them, but there is additionally to be kept in mind the factor that particularly those who were in command of large units of, say, the scale and complexity of an Army, a Corps or a division, had upon their hands a prodigiously difficult and complex task, which exceeds in terms of complexity and responsibility some of the largest industrial and commercial responsibilities undertaken in the greatest enterprises in civilian life.
  All I am saying in this connection is that it is a desirable objective, and one which can be well advanced on these occasions by debates upon defence, that there should be mutual understanding between the civilian and the military elements. It should be made abundantly clear that there is a recognition in the House of Commons and among the civilian element of the responsibilities which are undertaken in the Services and of our respect for the manner in which they are carried out.
  There is another important thing that can be done on these occasions, and I describe it in this way. It is important to recognise that these debates on defence all too readily become too diffuse and too blurred in outline. We ought to regard defence as a particularly and especially precise and concrete subject. Defence is only something to which we
  1358
  have resort when almost everything else has failed. That is why the speech of the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) yesterday, although I agreed with by far the greater part of it, had very little to do with defence.
  Perhaps some hon. Members disagree with me, but to my mind what he raised was not a defence issue. It is, of course, of vital importance that we should carry on our propaganda and the putting forward of our point of view on the great matters to which he referred in peacetime. We must, indeed, fight by all means for the ideology in which we believe, but it is not defence. It is blurring the boundaries of thought and reflection upon this subject to regard it as such. When we are debating and discussing defence, we are having regard to something to which we resort only when other methods have failed. The right hon. Member for Carshalton, in his moving and impressive speech, appealed for support for the proposition that somebody at least should be thinking about these matters of propaganda and the ideological war. He asked who was thinking about it and he mentioned the Commonwealth Relations Office, the Colonial Office and all the rest. He made the general appeal that somebody ought to be thinking about that aspect of our policy. I agree, But I say that the Minister of Defence is one of the last people who should be thinking about it. Certainly, let there be thinking about it in the Commonwealth Relations Office and the Colonial Office, where there is a high relevancy to it, but not in the Ministry of Defence. It is thinking of this kind that blurs the theme and spoils the argument.
  Another proposition which I would put to hon. Members in considering these issues of defence is that it would seem to me that we have a particular responsibility in this House to recognise that in the contemporary problems of modern defence the skilful and careful selection of personnel is becoming progressively more and more important. Within our function and responsibilities as a legislative assembly, we can usefully and properly keep a check at least upon the headings of the policies that are adopted by the Government governing the selection of personnel.
  The whole matter of defence is becoming steadily more technical and more

  1359
  complex. An effective defensive system is every day becoming more dependent upon there being available trained men in highly specialised fields of study and enterprise. It is quite impossible for an assembly like the British House of Commons to endeavour to apply a kind of piecemeal and detailed supervision in a matter of that kind. To achieve the maximum efficiency we have to rely upon capable and able supervision of the methods of selection of personnel.
  It is very important that we should take the opportunity of exercising that supervision and that, at the same time as we recognise the increasing importance of these technological considerations and aspects of defence, we should seize every opportunity to insist that the terms of remuneration of men in the Services, pensions payments and matters of that kind are so adjusted that they will be calculated to attract able, competent and far-sighted men towards them.
  I have, for example, seen with great satisfaction reference to an extension of scholarships for Sandhurst, and I think in principle that that is entirely admirable. Let there be every kind of incentive and encouragement given to able young people to come into the Services, and let it be agreed on all sides that it would be a most disastrous thing if a lack of means were to stand in the way of able and competent technicians or engineers, or people with particular aptitudes, going into the Services. That is the kind of advance and improvement that I very much welcome.
  There is only one more head to which I want to refer in this consideration which I am endeavouring to carry out of the problem of the relation between ourselves in this House and the matter of defence. It seems to me that we can only take cognisance of the outline of the issues of strategy and tactics, about which we hear so much discussion. There is a tremendous lot of discussion upon what are really fundamentally obscure and difficult strategic and tactical problems. The view I take is that these matters are just as much matters for experts as are highly difficult technical problems of engineering, hydraulics and suchlike. In taking this view, I do not resign from a responsibility for the matter in outline, but it must be an outline. All
  1360
  that I am venturing to insist upon is that any intelligent and reasonable being will realise that he cannot be a specialist in everything and must, to some degree, delegate to people whom he profoundly hopes have been carefully chosen responsibility in the fields in which they are acknowledged experts.
  In this context, I think we have a responsibility to make sure that defence policy does not become too rigidly attached to particular fixed strategic concepts. We hear talk, I think it is very vague talk, about the conflict which exists between the concept of a limited conventional war and the use of the ultimate deterrent—a concept of that kind, rather vague and woolly in its character, as it seems to me to be. All I would say is that public opinion will insist that we should not exclude the possibility, in any event, of the use of the ultimate deterrent, and, therefore, should not exclude the necessity of making our contribution towards it. It will insist that it is equally true that it would be wrong to eliminate the possible potential importance of the conventional shield.
  Although I agree with my right hon. Friend in what he said yesterday about the need of having a defence policy developed and associated in the context of strategic designs, none the less I think that these designs should be flexible in character and that we should not make the mistake of committing ourselves to any too precise view as to the proportionate importance in future campaigns and events of conventional forces, on the one hand, and the great deterrent, upon the other.
  Before I sit down, I wish to conclude upon the note on which I began. In all these matters, in which the public of this country takes such great interest, none is more important than the question whether we are getting value for our money when the scale of our expenditure is as high as it is. The account which the Minister of Supply had to give as to whether we were getting value for our money was one of the most unsatisfactory utterances we have had to listen to in this Chamber for a long time.
  6.46 p.m.
  Sir Peter Macdonatd: I have no intention of following the hon. and learned Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine) in his very

  1361
  interesting speech, apart from the fact that I agree with most of what he said; certainly, on the question of the personnel of the Services, on which I fully agree with his remarks.
  There has been a good deal of criticism of this White Paper from various sources on the grounds that it contains nothing new, that it is the same as the White Papers of last year and the year before. It does, however, contain one or two items on which I wish to congratulate the Minister of Defence and the Government, and one of those relates to their success in recruitment for the forces. I never took the view that it was not possible to recruit a Regular Army, Navy or Air Force, provided that the necessary incentives were offered and certain conditions were carried out.
  First, I place very great importance on pay and pensions, but also on housing conditions and conditions afloat in the ships, as well as on matters such as schooling for children. One thing which I stressed very much the last time I spoke on recruitment was the importance of giving opportunities in the Services for men to learn trades while they are in the Services. This is particularly apt where the Royal Air Force is concerned, because it is a great incentive to recruiting into a Service in which men can learn engineering, electronics and radar and have other opportunities which will help them when they come out, however long they have been in the Services.
  That is a very important thing, and the question of training of men in the Services is specially important when it is the intention, and certainly the policy, of the Government to cut down on aircraft production and the production of manned aircraft. Every aircraft production firm has a school of apprenticeship, which, in many cases, is as good as any technical college, and they have up to now, and, I hope, will be able to do in the future, been able to train young engineers after leaving school up to a very high standard.
  I hope that that policy will be pursued, and that when a man leaves the Services he will be able to get a trade certificate acceptable to any employer or trade union in the country, because even if he has spent twenty-one years in the Services, he will still probably be a comparatively young man when he comes
  1362
  out. He will have to find employment and if he has taken advantage of the opportunities for learning a trade, he will find that his time in the Services has not been wasted.
  I also congratulate my right hon. Friend on the Government's attitude towards pay and pensions, great incentives to recruiting. In particular, I congratulate him on the fact that the White Paper deals with the pensions of the widows of ex-officers and other ranks. That has been a sore subject for a long time and those Service widows have had a very rough time since the war. I hope that the Government will lose no time in implementing their plans. I understand that a statement is to be made soon, and I hope that it will not be long delayed, because people are very anxious to know what the exact proposals are. I hope that they will be as generous as we expect.
  I criticised the Government's policy when we discussed the last Defence White Paper. I said that they placed too much emphasis on the nuclear aspect of defence as against that of aircraft and mobile weapons. There has obviously been some rethinking since that time, because in this White Paper there is not the same emphasis on the static nuclear deterrent, although we are still keeping the Blue Streak, which is essential.
  We have to consider what our defences are supposed to do not only at home, but throughout the Commonwealth and the rest of the world. From our point of view, a static deterrent such as the Blue Streak is essential, and I am glad that the Government are pursuing it, but it is also essential that our defences should be mobile, both in the nuclear and other aspects.
  Although, in their last White Paper, the Government gave no encouragement to the construction of new types of aircraft, in this White Paper it is stated that they are to order the T.S.R.2 and one or two other types—the Canberra and a new freighter. I am glad that they have ordered a freighter, because I was very alarmed at the rumours that they were to buy an American freighter instead of ordering a type from home. That would have been a retrograde step which would have caused consternation in the aircraft industry and in the country at large. I am glad that the Government are to order a freighter aircraft, although only a few

  1363
  and of limited capacity and with a speed of only 350 m.p.h.
  There may be a requirement for that type of aircraft at present, but such an order does not look very far into the future. What steps are being taken to meet the requirements of five or seven years' hence? It takes a long time to build a new type of aircraft to provide a requirement to succeed the freighter, which should be only a holding aircraft, until something in the supersonic range comes along with jet propulsion and with at least twice the speed of the present freighter.
  I hope that these orders will be given to the industry as quickly as possible. The industry has been exhorted by the Government to integrate and amalgamate and to do everything possible to cut down the number of production units. That is being done to a very large extent. Much integration is taking place, although it is not easy to integrate the brains which are required in the design departments of this industry.
  Nevertheless, the companies have begun the process very well, although they complain often and strenuously of lack of orders from the Government. They put forward requirements of their own, or requirements come from the Government, and if policy is eventually settled and the squabbles of various committees are settled, a very long time elapses before the orders go to the factories. That will be especially the case if, in future, the companies get no Government financial help. It is, therefore, very important that any work should go to the factories as quickly as possible, because some firms are carrying a very heavy financial burden without knowing what their future is.
  I had an example given to me the other day. It concerned one of our leading engine manufacturers, the greatest engine manufacturers in the world. They have about four types of engine production and development at the same time. Those four types involve the firm in an expenditure of about £20 million, most of which the firm carries by itself. Many engines have to be sold to make £20 million, and that is a heavy financial burden for any company to carry.
  Smaller firms in a similar position will have to finance themselves in future. It
  1364
  is difficult for such a firm to borrow money from the bank unless it has a firm order. If the firm can only say that it has a requirement which has yet to be put to the Ministry of Supply, which may or may not accept it, the bank manager is likely to say that the firm had better make sure of the requirement before he will advance a loan. That situation will confront any firm which has to finance a project which it wishes to put to the Government or the nationalised airlines.
  I was surprised to hear the Minister of Supply say that manpower was not his responsibility. He may not be directly responsible, but he bears a serious responsibility for at least 250,000 men in the aircraft industry who look to the Ministry of Supply for orders. It is important that he should know the industry's position, for there is every prospect of great unemployment in the near future.
  There has already been some of it and I had a case in my constituency fifteen months ago when a Government order, which had been pressed very hard, was suddenly cancelled on Christmas Eve and 2,000 men were threatened with unemployment. Luckily, it did not turn out as badly as that, because the firm found some other work. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, who helped to find employment for many men thrown out of work and who followed that with help in transport for those setting up homes in other parts of the country. The firm itself showed great ingenuity in finding other work and beginning new projects. In the result, the unemployment situation in my constituency is not nearly as bad as it might have been, although it is bad enough.
  Yesterday, we had an example in Canada, where a British-Canadian firm laid off 14,000 men in one day. That is not our responsibility, apart from the fact that it is alarming news that any firm should have to do that, especially a firm with a British connection and employing many British people who have emigrated to Canada and found work in that firm.
  That is what happens if orders for aircraft are suddenly cut off without any alternative employment for the people engaged in the industry. We must try our utmost to avoid that, otherwise we shall have more unemployment in the near future than we have today. That is what I am told by responsible people

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  engaged in the aircraft industry, so I urge the Government and the Service Departments to get orders out to the factories as soon as possible, to allow those who are responsible today for their own research, production and development to get on with the job.
  That is my contribution to this debate. I am sure that progress has been made, though we have had very little information so far. However, I never expect to get much information from a defence debate. It is always shrouded in a smokescreen of what is about to happen, or what is going on in the nuclear or some other realm, but when we press for information we do not get it. No doubt it is necessary to have a certain amount of secrecy in defence matters, especially about the development of defence weapons, but when we consider the amount of money we vote for defence every year in this country it is important that the public should know as far as possible how that money is being spent and should be convinced that it is spent to the best advantage.
  7.0 p.m.
  Mr. R. E. Prentice: The hon. Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Wight (Sir P. Macdonald) said that he welcomed the fact that this White Paper did not put the same emphasis on the nuclear deterrent as did the White Paper of last year. In saying that, I think that the hon. Gentleman gave unintentional support to one of the main criticisms from this side of the House during the debate. It is that this White Paper does not put any emphasis on anything. It does not have any positive theme, but is a hotch-potch of Service items. The kindest description given of it has been that it is a progress report, although in some senses it does not even amount to that.
  Before referring to the main theme of the debate I will make a few remarks about an aspect which has not yet been mentioned. I want to ask the Ministers present to what extent orders for equipment for the Services have been reviewed in the light of the unemployment situation. It is clear that orders for Service equipment have been spread over many years. One would think that in a time of mounting unemployment, some of which has been caused by changes in defence policy, Ministers would come here and say that orders have been given to speed
  1366
  the re-equipment of the forces, particularly in respect of items which could be produced in those parts of the country with heavy unemployment. There ought to be, even from this Government, liaison between the Service Departments, the Ministry of Labour and the Board of Trade on these matters, and I would like to know whether that has taken place.
  There is another aspect of the Defence White Paper which bears on the unemployment situation. That is the increasing civilianisation of headquarters and bases in this country. When we replace Service people by civilians we not only streamline the Army, but we have to find civilian jobs for those displaced. That also calls for liaison and I want to know whether any has taken place.
  I now turn to a theme which has been mentioned in the debate, and particularly several times today. That is the question of interdependence between Britain and her Allies. On this point the White Paper is not even a progress report, whereas last year the White Paper said some things that were encouraging up to a point. For instance, this appeared in paragraph 25:
  "…it should be possible gradually to get away from the idea that each member nation must continue to maintain self-contained national forces …"
  Most of us who looked at that critically, as I did, thought that since N.A.T.O. had been in existence for about ten years, this was saying too little and saying it too late. The concept should have been in existence far earlier. Nevertheless, as far as it went, it was a good intention. In the following paragraph the White Paper referred to considerable economies in time and resources which could be secured by greater co-ordination. It referred to discussions that were going on in Western European Union, to technical studies that were proceeding, to close cooperation with the United States and Canada. One would have thought that one of the major themes of the White Paper this year would have been the way in which all that had developed.
  It is true that we have had some kind of report from the Minister of Supply this afternoon. I thought that it was a disappointing one, because all the right hon. Gentleman told us was that on various items discussions were still going on, and he was not able to give us a report of very much progress. Now it seems

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  that this is one of the really vital aspects of all our defence planning, because running through this debate has been the theme that we are trying to do a great many things that are very expensive and that there is difficulty in reconciling them. That difficulty faces not only ourselves, but also our Allies, and on that basis interdependence ought to be one of our main objectives.
  I will examine the White Paper and suggest that because of our lack of interdependence, and because of other failures of the Government, we are not succeeding in the objectives set out in the White Paper of 1957. Many of those objectives, as the Minister of Defence said quite rightly, were objectives that were shared by most of us. Certainly, I accept the fact that we must have the deterrent and that the Western Alliance must match the Soviet Union in a balance of what I might call terror.
  It is not because any of us want to do that—we all hate the hydrogen bomb —but because, as I tried to explain to some constituents at lunch time today— when they came to see me to try to persuade me to speak in this debate for unilateral disarmament—I think there is a greater chance of peace in such a balance than there is in a world where all the terror is in the hands of one bloc of nations.
  I also accept the fact that there is a strong case for saying that the Western deterrent should not be wholly in American hands and under American control. I also agree that we need forces within the kind of limits laid down in this White Paper, that is, up to a level of about 400,000, who ought to be well-equipped, mobile and efficient. The other premise we would generally accept is that the cost of all this ought to be within the present total, and if possible, less. To speak of the need for saving money on defence is not to be anti-defence, but to stress the fact that if we are to play our part in other aspects of the struggle between the free world and the Communist world, some savings are beginning to be essential.
  All these objectives, which are generally accepted on the Government side of the House, are objectives which the Government have failed to reconcile, and that is one of the main points of the Oppo-
  1368
  sition Amendment, on which there will be a vote later this evening. The Government have not succeeded in making savings on defence though they hoped to do so in 1957. When the White Paper was published there were what appeared to be inspired leaks in the Press suggesting that very large sums would be saved. Neither have the Government succeeded in equipping our forces with tactical nuclear weapons, or even with modern rifles or modern wireless sets, and other fairly straightforward requirements. In addition, I do not think that they have succeeded in making a very effective contribution to the Western deterrent.
  Reading the White Paper without having all the secret information at our disposal, we get a picture of a sort of nightmare scientific race between the countries that claim to be nuclear Powers, in which it is becoming increasingly difficult for any country except the two super-Powers—the United States and the Soviet Union—to play an effective part.
  I welcome the fact that the better forms of the V-bomber—the Vulcan and the Victor—are now with the operative units. We are glad to read that these aeroplanes are unsurpassed by any bombers in the other air forces of the world, and to read that they did well in the bombing tests in the United States.
  But we are told that to be able to meet the threat of ground-to-air missile defences of a potential enemy a stand-off bomb is having to be developed. In other words, in their present form, without a stand-off bomb, these aircraft can be answered by modern forms of defence. We thus have a further example of a race between one set of people developing more efficient missile defences and another set developing stand-off bombs.
  A similar consideration applies to the Blue Streak missile, which is only in the development stage. The Minister of Supply made some interesting comments about research and what the Americans and ourselves were doing about a possible defence against a ballistic missile. We must assume that similar work is also being done in the Soviet Union. Again, therefore, we have a race between the development of a future means of attack and of a future means of defence.
  In terms of the defence of our bases we are told in the White Paper that next year the Royal Air Force will have a

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  supersonic fighter with the Firestreak missile
  "and later … a more advanced weapon capable of intercepting the faster aircraft of the future."
  Exactly the same thing is said of the ground-to-air missiles. The Bloodhound is beginning to be deployed, and
  "A more advanced weapon with higher performance is being developed."
  In other words, both in attack and in defence we have the picture of weapon A being with the forces now; weapon B arriving next year or the year after, and weapon C being on the drawing boards— and all the time these weapons becoming obsolescent or completely obsolete before they are in the hands of the forces and people are trained to use them.
  This process has cost us a lot of money. It would be useful if we could be told what proportion of our defence costs is going towards the deterrent, and the defence of the deterrent bases. Whatever it is, it seems that this cost will increase proportionately as the years succeed each other. This process involves a further cost, in the sense that the more we devote to it the less we are able to devote to the equipment of conventional forces. There is also a serious cost in another sense which has not yet been mentioned, namely, the tremendous cost to our economy arising through the great number of scientists and technologists tied up in this process.
  I want to refer briefly to the 1957 report issued by the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, which examines what this country is doing in the field of scientific research and development. It said that we are spending about £300 million a year on scientific research and development, which is an inadequate figure, and compares poorly with what is being done by other industrial nations. The point I want to highlight is that out of that figure 59 per cent. was being spent on defence. I wonder to what extent there has been a discussion within the Cabinet about the extent to which we can afford to tie up such a large proportion of our scientific expenditure, and so many of our best scientists, in defence when they might be able to make a better contribution in other fields.
  Mr. Aubrey Jones: I recognise that the hon. Member has scientific qualifications, but one of the objectives of the 1957
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  Defence White Paper was to ease the pressure on the country's resources in scientists. Having said that, I realise that we must face the very interesting question whether it is better for scientific progress to have our scientists evenly dispersed, or to have a concentration of scientists in certain fields, to act as leaders in other fields.
  Mr. Prentice: I am obliged to the Minister, but I have no scientific qualifications. I wonder to what extent the 1957 Report of the Advisory Council is out of date. The Minister has said that the 1957 White Paper on Defence was designed to alter this emphasis, and I am wondering to what extent it succeeded. It is something about which the House ought to hear a little more at some time.
  I would not argue against Britain's having her own independent deterrent, but we should discuss frankly what it will cost, and we must ask ourselves whether these developments, which so quickly become obsolescent, are the best way of using our scarce resources. The Minister earlier talked about the great prestige which the Soviet Union enjoyed through the Sputniks, and said that we could not be left out of the race. But if we are always limping behind in the race it is not good for our prestige. It might be better to use our resources and scientists to do something which we can do properly.
  I am not arguing that we should unilaterally disarm, from a nuclear or any other point of view, but I suggest that we must examine very carefully the extent to which it is necessary for us to stay in this race on our own. I again emphasise the point I made about interdependence. If we stay in the race on our own it will involve us in mounting costs, and it may prevent us from having efficient defence forces in other ways. This consideration applies particularly in the case of the Blue Streak. It is very difficult for a layman to be dogmatic about the rights and wrongs of a decision of this kind when he does not have all the information at his disposal, but there would seem to be a strong case for saying that the ultimate weapon of this type will be something like the Polaris, and that the technical difficulties which are being faced at the moment will be overcome by the time weapons of the Blue Streak type

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  would have been deployed, with crews trained to use them.
  The Minister of Defence yesterday talked of the difficulty in deciding whether we needed something like the Blue Streak or another generation of V-bombers. There was one argument which he did not examine, which was mentioned in the leading article of The Times yesterday, namely, that if we go on developing further generations of bombers we are producing weapons which are capable of being used in many different ways, whereas the trouble with the Blue Streak, or any fixed-base missile, is that it is relevant only to the deterrent, and not to other purposes which might be necessary. Aircraft can be used in different roles. They can be used in limited war or, as we are proudly informed in the Air Force Memorandum, for showing the flag in different parts of the world. I imagine that that procedure is sometimes of value.
  I return to my earlier point, that the main impression I receive from the White Paper is that we have been trying to do so many things at once that we have not done any of them properly, and that we need to make a rational choice between the things which it is right to do. It is not possible for any back bencher to be dogmatic about what needs to be done; not even the Opposition Front Bench speakers can be dogmatic, because proper decisions can be made only with all the available information at one's disposal. But whatever else may be in doubt, there can be no doubt about the importance of interdependence, and of sharing the burden between our Allies so that, between us, we can get the maximum result without ruining ourselves.
  This is tremendously important, especially in relation to what was being said yesterday by the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head). The first part of his speech was admirable, although he did not match up to his aspirations in the proposals be made in the second part of his speech. If the West is to take a real initiative in economic aid to the underdeveloped territories, in propaganda, and in trying to win the hearts and minds of the peoples throughout the world, it must not ruin itself by its defence programme. It must have a rational defence programme, and I believe that that means an interdependent one.
  7.20 p.m.
  Brigadier O. L. Prior-Palmer: It is a very great pleasure for me to follow the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) in this debate. He and I had a good look at the German Army for a whole fortnight, and I was very interested in what he had to say. I have nothing really to quibble with him about.
  I would ask those who consider that it is not necessary for us to continue with rocket research to realise that, although at the moment this is an offensive-defensive weapon, there will, I believe, come a day when it will have civilian uses which we cannot even consider at the moment. For instance, there might be a postal service across the Atlantic by rocket, and it would be disastrous for us if we were left behind in that research. One prominent scientist said that if we did not have this research and relied on other nations for the information we should get to a stage in which we would not know the questions to ask or understand the answers to them. Therefore, apart from defence, I think it is important that this research and development of the research, for without development, as the Minister of Supply said, it is no good, should go on.
  I want to reply also, from my point of view, to the criticism on equipment. I think that this point has not yet been made by any hon. Member. It is that the equipment of an army is rather different from that of any other Service. It goes in cycles, and it is quite impossible to introduce into the Army entirely new types of vehicles and weapons while others are in existence in the Army. We can bring in new editions of the same vehicle; we cannot change over by dribbles to an entirely new type of vehicle or weapon. If we did we should have units equipped with different types "of vehicles and the whole question of supply and of spare parts would become quite impossible. Therefore, every Government—and this has been a problem all through history—has to make up its mind upon what date in what year it is that it wants the Army to be on the very top line, because it cannot stay there always.
  The Germans had a tremendous advantage at the beginning of the last war because they knew the exact date when they wanted to have their army equipped to the very top level. They started the

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  war with the Mark IV tank, which was far better than anything we had, and very nearly ended the war with the Mark IV tank, although the much larger Tiger came in at the last minute. While we were improving the whole time, the Germans were saddled with that vehicle and equipment for nearly the whole of the war. Therefore, it is a terribly difficult problem, and I would not blame the Labour Party or the Conservative Party if they would allow large stocks of equipment to be used up and worn out before changing over completely to something new. The date has arrived to do that, and it should be done, in my view, reasonably quickly.
  I think the criticism that this is merely a progress report is very weak. Surely the criticism itself is a compliment to the original White Paper. If the original White Paper had been fundamentally wrong, then a change would have been necessary. The greatest compliment that can be paid to the original White Paper is to say that no change is necessary at all and that it is, in fact, a progress report.
  Furthermore, I would say that there is nothing in the world so detrimental to planning efforts and research and development planning staffs than to have continual switches and changes in policy from year to year. After all, it is only a year since the previous White Paper and nothing very much has changed since then to make any fundamental policy change necessary in the present White Paper.
  I was warned by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele), who opened the debate today, that it would be a dangerous thing to talk about disengagement. It might be dangerous for a Front Bench speaker to refer to it, but speaking as a back bencher I do not believe that it will make very much difference. I, therefore, feel that it is my duty to give, for what they are worth, very shortly, my own personal views. I do not know whether or not they are my party's views in detail but I know that they are, broadly speaking.
  Let us at least try to learn one lesson from the war. Because of the fact that we were not allowed to approach Germany through Belgium we had to stand back. Therefore, we give an advantage to the aggressor every time if there is a wide gap between the two front lines. The aggressor can get up
  1374
  such a momentum that by the time his forces reach us they can hit us so hard that they take a lot of stopping. That is one of the great weaknesses of the disengagement plan. It gives the advantage to the aggressor. Let us take the analogy of a Rugby scrum. If the two sides are leaning on each other neither can get very far, but if one side is allowed to come in with a charge it can break through very quickly.
  On the question of defence in depth, we must have great depth in modern defence, and if we retire back beyond the Rhine or any line like that we lose our depth. The Russians have all the depth in the world behind them. That will be another great disadvantage to us in the event of aggression, even a minor aggression by the other side. I do not think that I have said anything very dangerous so far. Suppose that all the Russian troops were removed from this area, and then some crisis blows up in Poland, for example, and in walk three Russian divisions. Is that an act of aggression?
  Are we to say that they have broken the treaty? Are we to attack? I think that the danger of war in that case would be very great indeed. These are my three points on disengagement and I feel very strongly about it. I oppose it only because I think that it will be so dangerous. The present situation is much safer.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Before the hon. and gallant Gentleman leaves the second point, may I ask whether he attaches no importance at all to the argument in favour of disengagement that there is no serious danger of intentional aggression on either side? The real danger is some untoward incident that unintentionally might spark off a very dangerous powder magazine. One of the arguments for disengagement is that the further the forces are apart the less danger there is of some such incident.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I know that that has been one of the arguments. I think the other danger is greater still— the one that I posed in my third point —the re-entry of Russian armed forces into a demilitarised zone on some pretext or other. The Russians did not find it

  1375
  very difficult to find a pretext for actions of this sort in the past.
  Mr. Strachey: On the hypothesis of the Russians re-entering Poland, why should not we re-enter West Germany? It seems to me that is a casus belli on either side.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Then we are back to where we started. Why risk that happening at all? Why not leave it where it is? We can go on arguing in circles as long as hon. Members like.
  To turn to a different point, owing to the fact of the strength of N.A.T.O. and the immense strategic striking force over the 4,000 miles from north of Norway to the east of Turkey, not one single inch of ground has been lost to the Iron Curtain. Therefore, it is vitally important—I shall have a word to say about this—to keep up that strength.
  The result of this has been the obvious result, an attempt to turn the flanks. We know the history of the Middle East and Algeria, and I would say that the attempt to turn the flank is beginning to fail as regards the southern flank of N.A.T.O. I believe that stability has come there; I wish it were the responsibility of NA.T.O. and not only of ours or the Americans. I am extremely disturbed about the northern flank. This matter was touched on yesterday by no fewer than five hon. Members of this House who are sailors. The figure of the number of Russian submarines which I have obtained from authoritative sources is a great deal bigger than the 500 which was quoted yesterday. When we remember that never more than 60 German submarines were at sea at one time during the height of the submarine blockade in the last war, one begins to wonder what it is all about.
  I believe that the bottleneck between the Faroes and Greenland will need a big force to deal with, and I see all sorts of dangers. Perhaps it is not too great an exaggeration to say that owing to the fact that there are Communist Ministers in the Icelandic Government one day the Russians may obtain a submarine base in Iceland. Perhaps not—let us hope not. Even so, with that number of submarines, and if we get what is not beyond the range of present thought—a submarine which can fire a nuclear missile from under water—and even if we take
  1376
  a small proportion of the 600, 700 or 800 Russian submarines—whatever the number may be—if we consider 200 or even 100 submarines strung out along the East coast of America, it might be possible that one day the ultimatum would come —"We will drench America with hydrogen bombs tomorrow morning unless all troops are immediately withdrawn from Europe."
  I do not believe that we shall have a thermo-nuclear war on a large scale so long as we keep up the strength of the deterrent. But I am frightened that, because of our strength, something else may happen and that the whole of the N.A.T.O. castle may be surrounded and outflanked; that suddenly there will be a fait accompli—not in the near future, but perhaps in the distant future—without a single shot being fired. Think of the effect of that upon the American opinion —just one small bomb in the middle of Manhattan, for example.
  I think the Minister of Defence should look again at the requirements laid down by N.A.T.O. for defence of the North Atlantic flank. There was a resolution passed at the N.A.T.O. Parliamentarians Conference which I had some part in getting accepted and which has gone out to all the Ministers of Defence. I ask our Minister of Defence to look at it again to see what he can do to urge other Ministers of Defence to get together to discuss it. I know that the Supreme Allied Commander Atlantic is extremely disturbed about it. The Resolution reads:
  "That the North Atlantic Council take immediate steps to fulfil the minimum requirements laid down by the Council itself for the production of vessels and equipment for the defence of the North Atlantic flank of N.A.T.O."
  That, of course, means submarines, because the modern defence against a submarine is the submarine with its allied aircraft.
  There was another resolution on the Order Paper of that Conference in similar terms, and I wish to ask the Minister of Defence seriously to consider the political implications, if not the strategic implications—and they are serious enough—of the withdrawal of any more troops from Europe. The right hon. Gentleman will be able to strengthen his strategic reserve very considerably in the near future because of what has

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  happened in Cyprus. For every reason I can think of that strategic reserve should go to Germany. It would have an immense moral effect and be a great boost for the other little countries-Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg and the rest of them.
  Furthermore—I am sure that the Secretary of State for War will agree—there is only one place where we can train soldiers today, and that is on the Continent. An army cannot be trained adequately in England. I have tried to do it, and I know how difficult it is, to put it mildly. But, having said that, I would also say that we must make Germany a home station. Let us have all the amenities of a home station. Let us give the troops plenty of leave. It would not be difficult to bring them back to this country. It is not far in terms of distance and it would not cost much. Then we should have contented soldiers, good barracks, a good training ground and a contented N.A.T.O. as well.
  At the moment, the minimum commitment is 30 divisions, and as has already been said, we have 21. I wish to read another Resolution passed at the N.A.T.O. Conference:
  "That the ground forces of N.A.T.O. should, as a matter of absolute priority, be brought up to the minimum requirements as laid down by the North Atlantic Council."
  That is 30 divisions. As a matter of fact, I tried to clamp down a little on that figure, but it was no good. I had the representatives of all the 16 nations against me. They all wanted that Resolution put forward. From the political point of view—not necessarily from the strategic point of view, although there is argument for both sides—it is vitally important—
  Mr. E. Fernyhough: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us what would be his calculation of the increase in the Estimates assuming that a policy of posting these additional troops to Germany were carried out?
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I should not think that it would mean any great addition. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War will give the answer in the Army Estimates. I may be wrong. In any case, we should have to feed the troops and clothe them and house them, and, after all, the baracks are free—or rather there is a certain contribution
  1378
  coming in which will end eventually. But I must get on with the main part of my speech.
  The other thing which impressed me very much was the state of the German Navy. Through the Brussels Treaty they have been permitted 12 divisions for their Army and 1,350 front-line aircraft for their Air Force. But they have only two or three small ships which are worth anything at all and they are at Kiel. Article 2 of the Treaty forbids them to build any light small coastal craft. There was another resolution passed at the N.A.T.O. Conference: that that Article in the Brussels Treaty should be amended to allow the Germans to build adequate coastal forces in order to be able to bottle up any submarines which might be in the Baltic. Apart from anything else, there is a bit of self-interest connected with this policy. Why should Germany get away with building nothing except articles for export while we are committed to so much building for defence? This policy would help our steel industry enormously.
  Mr. William Warbey: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has three times referred to resolutions passed by what he called the N.A.T.O. Parliamentarians' Conference. Will he make clear to the House that this body does not represent anyone but the people who attend it? It has no power except to issue reports and pass resolutions. It has no authority and is not really a Parliamentary assembly in the true sense of the term.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I did not think it was necessary to explain that because I thought everyone knew it. There are six or seven and sometimes twelve members who attend the Conference from various Parliaments, and they come together to discuss these things. They put resolutions to the N.A.T.O. Council. I thought that was common knowledge. Of course, the Conference has no authority, and I never suggested that it had. But I must say that the representatives talk good sense when they meet.
  Regarding the transport of troops, we are all right for jeep-borne personnel for dealing with police actions, but I am still not satisfied about what we are going to do and how we are to transport heavy equipment, tanks, guns and ammunition for a Korea-size war.

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  There are two solutions. One is the degutted aircraft carrier in which we can put the lot and steam at 28 knots. But I understand that the cost of keeping a carrier in moth balls is about £4 million. Would my right hon. Friend tell me whether £4 million represents the cost of the aircraft carrier which is in reserve? It sounds quite expensive.
  The other answer is to have a duplication or triplication of equipment such as tanks in dumps at suitable points in various parts of the world. I hope that my hon. Friend is fully aware of how necessary this is so that troops could be flown out to the equipment and so that we would not have a repetition of troops sailing along at about 8 knots.
  I was impressed by the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Car-shalton (Mr. Head). I said in the defence debate last year, although nothing like as well as my right hon. Friend said it, that in the field of battle for men's minds we were weak. There is no shadow of doubt about it. It has been the responsibility of the Colonial Office, the Foreign Office and the Commonwealth Relations Office. We now have a Minister who is supposed to be in charge, an efficient and able man, but to be quite frank I do not think that he is the man for this job. A Minister must have far more knowledge of countries. He must be somebody who has been out to these countries, and perhaps been round the world a great deal. I urge the Government to realise that that is part of defence, although somebody said that it was not, and that it is one of the most important parts of defence policy.
  7.43 p.m.
  Mr. George Chetwynd: This debate has demonstrated clearly so far that there is still no cohesion in our defence policy. I have listened to all the speeches so far and if there is any cohesion it has not sunk in upon me. We have not yet got our priorities right in defence. I shall try to show later on what my priorities are.
  Speeches from Government supporters have suffered from two main defects. One is that they think that the defence policy that we are criticising only began in 1957. On the other hand, it is something for which they have been responsible since 1951. Government supporters
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  cannot shuffle off the years between 1951 and 1957 as something for which the Labour Government were responsible. Government supporters came in with determined views as to what had to be done, but for four or five years they sat back and literally did absolutely nothing.
  The Minister of Defence made it clear that we were dealing with the same set of proposals which he introduced in 1957. There had been a progress report, but no fundamental change. I do not think that is true. I think there have been considerable changes in the Government's attitude and in their defence programme between 1957 and today.
  The White Paper is important, not for what it says—it says pretty well nothing —but for what it leaves out. There has been a change of emphasis, but it has glossed over many of the difficulties. For instance, there are none of those polemics about Russia and Russian intentions. All that is left out, understandably, in view of the present negotiations in Moscow. There is no mention of the massive nuclear retaliation which we would bring into operation against any kind of aggression from Russia. That is a wise step, but we are left not with a defence White Paper at all but with a very emasculated White Paper, full of good intentions and very little else.
  The 1957 Defence White Paper was based on the nuclear deterrent. A lot of ill-informed opinion at that time led the public to believe that there would be great savings in expense as the result of the Minister of Defence's slashing economies in the defence Estimates and the introduction of dependence upon nuclear weapons. If we examine the Estimates since then we shall see clearly that these economies have not materialised. The cost of defence this year is up by nearly £50 million over last year and by about £100 million over 1957–58. The question I would ask was raised in 1957, when it was said that one-tenth of our gross national product was being spent on defence and was so straining our resources to the utmost that we could not bear it indefinitely.
  What is the actual proportion of the gross national production devoted to defence expenditure at the present time? Is it as much as it was in 1957? How

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  much of the working population are either in the Services or engaged in supporting them? We should like to know how much of the metal-using industries, upon which we shall depend more and more for our exports, is devoted to defence? In 1957, I believe that a proportion as high as one-eighth of our resources was devoted to defence.
  It is clear that one of our cardinal principles is that our defence is as strong as our economy is to support it. If we are diverting part of our economic resources into what may be wasteful and abortive expenditure we are not strengthening our resolve to resist aggression in any way. If we could have that kind of information it would give us some sense of proportion of what our real defence resources are.
  I come to the state of readiness of our Armed Forces. All along, the Government have been speaking in terms of where we shall be in mid-1960. By 1964, apparently, we shall have a perfect system of defence, but in 1964–5 that system will, by its very nature, be obsolete to meet the problems of 1965. We have to bear in mind that all along from 1951 to 1959 there have been a number of occasions when we might have had to go to war. One can think of the Middle East, of Jordan—if there had been resistance there, what might have happened?—and in the Far East at Quemoy and Matsu. At any time between 1951 and 1959 we could have been involved in a major war, and it is clear from the sort of picture we have that at no time during those years were we in a state of real readiness to deal with it. On the military side we were not in a state to mount even an operation of limited size.
  We now have a White Paper with a list of good intentions not yet fulfilled. Let me go through the White Paper at random. I will take paragraph 2, which says:
  "Preliminary work has begun on four guided missile ships of the County Class, and two will be laid down in the near future. They will be propelled by combined steam and gas turbine machinery,"
  etc. Paragraph 3 says:
  "The Wessex all-weather helicopter has been ordered as a replacement for the Whirlwind and will become the Navy's main anti-submarine aircraft."
  I come to paragraph 4, which says:
  "It has also been decided to proceed with the production of the N.A.39, a strike-recon-
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  naissance aircraft with high-speed performance at low level and well suited to limited war operations."
  That is in the future, and it has been delayed by inter-Service rivalries. We do not know when it will appear. In 1964, it may be. I turn to the "Dreadnought". Paragraph 5 says about that:
  "Preparations for the construction of the nuclear submarine, 'Dreadnought', are proceeding."
  What on earth does all that mean in terms of having actual military potential here and now? We were told years ago that the preparation for "Dreadnought "was proceeding. We understand that since then there have been some kinds of argy-bargy with the Americans about what units we are putting in, how much it will cost, and what will go into it and now, in 1959, we are still told that the laying of the keel of "Dreadnought" is some months ahead. When shall we have "Dreadnought"? In 1965? Possibly, but I do not know. The White Paper says in paragraph 6:
  "The first of the three 'Tiger' Class cruisers will be commissioned next month."
  Then we come to the Army, and here we have real reason for complaint. It seems that the other Services have been stealing much which many of us would like to have gone into development of the Army. Its share has gone down in recent years and, as a result, our Army is not in a fit state to conduct a modern operation. Yet the Government say:
  "…present plans provide for the extensive re-equipment of the Army, so that the smaller, but more highly trained, all-regular force of the future may operate with maximum efficiency."
  We had the astounding statement yesterday by the Minister of Defence that we are content to use old stock, surplus stores, to keep the armoury in being, and a further astounding statement by the Minister of Supply today that because of the cost of all this we have not done it yet.
  The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Christopher Soames): The hon. Member, if I understood him, said that the Army was not able to meet its commitments. Could he say what commitment was placed on the Army which it has not been able to meet? What is the type of commitment he envisages might be placed upon it in the immediate future which it could not meet?
  Mr. Chetwynd: I did not say it had not met commitments, but that it was not in a position to wage a war under modern conditions, which is quite a different thing. Had we had troubles which might have developed in those years, the Army would not have been in a position to meet them.
  The Army was to get the F.N. rifle some time back in 1955. We had spent two years before that developing our own rifle, which was rejected in order to get standardisation with the Belgian one. Today—five years since that decision was taken—we find that Germans in their armed forces have the F.N. rifle, the Belgian contingent in N.A.T.O. has obviously got it and yet only something like 50 per cent. of our troops in Germany are armed with it. Strangely enough, we find they are still using ·303 ammunition in Germany, whereas the standardised ammunition is·300. The bulk of our troops in Germany are armed with the ·303 Lee-Enfield rifle which has done such good service, but which, as a personal weapon, places our troops at a serious disadvantage compared with others.
  Is it a fact that when our troops leave Cyprus to go back to Germany to join the Reserve there they have to leave their F.N. rifles, or are they allowed to take them to Germany? A statement in the Manchester Evening News of 18th December makes the point that they had to leave their F.N. rifles behind them and go back to Germany to pick up the old ·303 rifles. Another statement in this article concerns signals equipment. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) read what he had to say about that—
  Mr. Soames: The hon. Member asked me a question. Let me immediately assure him that as we run down our forces in Cyprus and withdraw units they bring their rifles with them.
  Mr. Chetwynd: That was not the question I asked. I asked if they had left them behind when they returned to Germany hitherto.
  Mr. Soames: They bring them with them.
  Mr. Chetwynd: Of course they will, because they leave Cyprus; but there are not enough to go round. That is the
  1384
  basis of my complaint, that we have spent all this time and not produced 100 per cent. the personal weapons of the soldier. I think that is a serious indictment. We ought to be doing much better if we are to have a modern well-equipped Army, about which so much has been said.
  In signals equipment we are still in the process of getting what we want. In transport equipment and tanks we are still in that process. We are still using, more or less, the same artillery, the 25-pounder, as in the last war. Reference is made in the article to which I have referred to "an antique Army". Compared with the Germans our men with their ground sheets are an antique Army. It is time this was put right when we consider the millions of pounds which have been spent on our Armed Forces. We should bear in mind that in the last five years we have spent £10,000 million on the Armed Forces, a rate of nearly £38 million a week. We are entitled to ask whether we have got value for money. What has gone wrong with the organisation when today we can look forward only to a time two or three years ahead when we shall have the kind of Army we ought to have now?
  The conclusion I come to is that we have been concentrating so much on missiles that it has been to the serious disadvantages of almost everything else, and we have not been able to maintain conventional forces on an adequate level. We have been reduced to the peculiar position that we are unable to fight any war except a nuclear war and that, by its very nature, is ruled out. That is the one kind of war which everyone seems to agree we shall not fight. I must agree with The Times leading article of yesterday, which said that a threat to commit suicide is not a rational defence policy.
  The Government would be far better advised to come clean on the present state of preparedness than to go on deluding us that we have got everything we ought to have and saying that for the next three or four year we may be in difficulties until all these weapons come in. The important thing is to ask what kind of a mess we would have been in had we been called upon to wage some large-scale war or an intervention on a larger scale than we have had to make. Even with the magnificent troops we have, it is exceedingly doubtful how successful we could have been.

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  I turn from the Army to consider the decision on Blue Streak. I have no expert knowledge about it, but I think it a bad decision. I think the Government are preferring a static system to a mobile system of defence. They have the Maginot Line mentality of fixed bases, heavily protected and underground it may be, but in this country with our limited room for manoeuvre and large population any fixed defence of that kind is bound to be a target for attack and a liability. Our tactics should have been to go in for a mobile system based on the submarine and based as far ahead as we can see on manned aircraft. We ought to ask what priority is being given to Blue Streak. Are we carrying on with it only because we have sunk a lot of money into its development, or because we are seeking to have our own independent missile of this kind? Why have we rejected the Polaris concept when I believe we could have developed that in co-operation with the Americans?
  One of the misconceptions is that Blue Streak is designed to go back to the old policy of replacing the V-bomber. That is one of the declared objectives, but, by the time the V-bomber is obsolete, I am absolutely certain Blue Streak will be obsolete as well. We should have been far better advised to put the major part of our resources on to the stand-off bomb and to make that our key demand, with the manned bomber as the means of delivering. After all, that could go on for years ahead and we could improve on it. This policy of Blue Streak makes nonsense of much of the development of T.S.R.2. I know it is meant only to be a tactical aircraft, but it is bound to become a strategic aircraft as well. It depends on the target, but there is no earthly reason why it should not be used as a strategic weapon as well as a tactical one. We surely could have devoted much more of our money to refuelling processes in flight, if necessary, rather than on Blue Streak, which is bound to be highly vulnerable.
  I return to the fundamental weakness of the Government's defence plan. They are trying to have something of everything, instead of having one perfect something. I wish we could examine the Ministry of Supply in more detail in order to see how, all along the line, it is seeking for absolute perfection. As soon as it gets something, it wants something a little better. As is
  1386
  pointed out quite clearly in the Defence White Paper, there is a good deal of abortive expenditure, a good deal of wasted development and so on. There is a good deal of overlapping and a tremendous amount of waste.
  One of these days we must aim for something which we will have with us for some time, stick to it, go into production and make sure that we have it, rather than having all these beautiful plans on paper coming along some time in the future. I believe that we have been led astray on all this, because we have been trying to demonstrate our independence in something in which we are completely interdependent.
  One other change in this year's White Paper is that it brings more into focus the position of nuclear tactical weapons. On all this we know very little. We ought to know the position of our forces on the Continent with regard to the possession of nuclear tactical weapons. I understand that the Americans have them there. I understand that we perhaps have them in a small way in the Corporal. That raises a very important question as to the circumstances under which they will be used and who will make the decision to use them. We have to be very careful indeed to maintain political control over them, at least in the very initial stages. Obviously in the case of a conflict breaking out which could not be diverted or put off, the commanders in the field would have to have some say, but the prime decision must be a political one.
  I have never been absolutely convinced that the tactical weapon is a usable one. Thinking in terms of a fire brigade operation, the tactical weapon is more likely to add to the flames than put them out. It is part of our armoury. It is something which we accept as a regrettable necessity in case it should be needed. All the evidence that I can find in the White Paper goes to show that at the moment—and I am speaking about now, not 1964—we are not in a position to fight either a nuclear war—because we do not want to and we could not—or a conventional one, because we are not in a state of preparedness for it.
  There is no evidence that our forces are as yet organised and armed on the most up-to-date lines. Perhaps in three, four or five years' time they will be. There is a serious gap in our defences

  1387
  now which is likely to persist until the mid-1960s. There has been a great waste of money. We have been trying to have everything, and as a result we have very little and what we have we have too late. This is very much a White Paper defence force, not a force in actual being. I hope that it will never be needed to be called into action.
  I know that the sands of my time are running out, and perhaps as a result of the White Paper the time of Sandys is running out also.
  8.3 p.m.
  Brigadier Sir John Smyth: The last time the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) and I spoke he was following me and he told the House that he was very glad to do so because he was one of my constituents. I can return the compliment tonight now that I am following him: I am very glad to be his Member of Parliament.
  I congratulate the hon. Member on the fluency of his speech. He raised many extremely important and interesting points. I do not agree with many of the conclusions that he drew from them, which I know he will accept.
  Firstly, he said that, between 1951 and 1957, we were not in a position to have any forces ready to participate in any war which might have arisen in any part of the world. I remember very well, in regard to the Defence White Paper of 1950, my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) saying that he did not believe that if there were an emergency the Labour Government of the day would even be able to find two brigades to send at short notice. My right hon. Friend was being optimistic, because when the Korean War started we had absolutely to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find one brigade that could go at short notice. It is quite true that after a time we formed an excellent Commonwealth Division out there, but had it not been for the immediate action taken by the Americans we would have been much too late at the time of Korea to intervene at all.
  Secondly, the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees, like so many other speakers from the opposite side of the House, stressed the importance of the principle of economy in our defence budget. When
  1388
  they come to speak, however, they want Polaris. They want new equipment. They want new weapons, and they want them all at once. That has happened in the case of almost every speaker from the other side of the House, particularly in the case of the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown). I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman is in his place, because he is the big noise on defence on the other side. He is the shadow Defence Minister.
  I want to refer briefly to one or two points in the speech of the right hon. Member for Belper. He started by making some very kind personal references to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence. I should like to return to the right hon. Gentleman the compliment in the same terms and say that we like him, we think that he is a good chap and we hope that his shadow will never grow less and that we shall hear many more contributions from him over on that side of the House.
  The right hon. Gentleman is consistent in at least one thing. His speeches in these defence debates are almost always exactly one hour in length. I have looked them up. They do not vary by more than a minute either side of the hour. Without being personal about it, I think he would make some clearer points which we could follow more easily if his speeches were a little shorter and more to the point. As it is, I have to dig in amongst all the verbiage to find the little bits of gold that lie hidden in his speeches.
  Despite the length of his speech, however, I do not think he proved in any way that my right hon. Friend's White Paper was incoherent, inconsistent or ineffective. People may say that they disagree with it, but I do not think it could be referred to in those terms.
  Mr. R. J. Mellish: Surely the whole gravamen of the charge was that the White Paper did hot mention defence at all.
  Sir J Smyth: That is very unfair criticism. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman can have read the heading to the White Paper. My right hon. Friend made it absolutely clear that it was the third of a sequence of White Papers. Most of us who are interested read them as such. If the hon. Member for

  1389
  Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) had done the same, he would have come to the same conclusion.
  Mr. Mellish: I read them.
  Sir J. Smyth: The right hon. Gentleman twitted my right hon. Friend in an agreeable way for mixing his metaphors and for digging a horse from a bunker with a niblick that he carried in his quiver. I can only say that if anybody could dig a horse out of a bunker with a niblick it would be my right hon. Friend. Talking of bunkers, I heard a story the other day of a little girl who was going round the golf links with her mother. They watched a rather irate gentleman trying to get the ball out of a bunker for some time and then the little girl said, "He's stopped beating it, Mummy, I think it must be dead."
  The right hon. Gentleman also mixed his metaphors a little when he said that he was tickled pink in the middle of the grey area—or that he was in the grey area when he was tickled pink. It reminded me very much of prickly heat out East.
  I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was guilty of paying lip-service to the cost of defence, and not sufficiently stressing its importance. In the debate on last year's Defence White Paper he took my right hon. Friend very much to task, when he said:
  "At the beginning of the Minister's speech, … and at the end …the right hon. Gentleman"—
  the Minister of Defence:
  "kept on referring to economy He said, 'We cannot afford this' and 'It would cost us so much to do that.'"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1958; Vol. 583, c. 398.]
  How right my right hon. Friend was. The Western Powers could, perhaps, more easily lose the cold war on the economic or the ideological front than on the military one.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) was very angry with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) for referring to the defence expenditure initiated by the Labour Government in the Korea emergency in 1950. It will be remembered that that expenditure amounted to £4,700 million over a period of three years. It is quite true that we on this side supported the launching of that
  1390
  scheme, but, of course, it proved to be a quite insupportable burden, and for years since then we have been pruning that expenditure. We must have the best possible defence force, within our means.
  The best thing in the right hon. Gentleman's speech was his remark about defence being a continuation of foreign affairs. In a way, I find these separate debates on foreign affairs and on defence very unreal. I should like from time to time to see a two-day combined debate on foreign affairs and defence with the Foreign Secretary leading off by laying down the policy of the Government and the Minister of Defence winding up to show how the means available fitted in with the foreign policy laid down by the Foreign Secretary. We are apt to let the two diverge, but, of course, defence must always be an instrument of foreign policy.
  I support what was said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) about disengagement in Europe. Belgium was an example of that in the last war. I was perched on the Belgian frontier with my brigade before the days of Dunkirk began and saw the great weakness of this disengaged zone. As hon. Members will know, the Maginot Line was not continued along the Belgian frontier because the Belgians were very keen on keeping this neutral zone between ourselves and the Germans. They made a tremendous point of it. It proved a very great weakness to us, not only from the purely defence point of view, but from that of information. It was, of course, in that very area that the German attack came.
  Since our last debate on a Defence White Paper, General Norstad has made a very important speech in Paris. He made it on 3rd November last, when he reiterated what N.A.T.O. stood for and what our defensive strategy added up to. He said again that we relied, first of all, on the essential retaliatory force—in other words, the nuclear deterrent, which is, of course, not under his control—and, secondly, on the shield forces holding the forward line of N.A.T.O., which, from the point of view of defence, he stressed, should be as far forward as possible in order to give extra depth and room for movement.

  1391
  He said, once again, that the objectives of the shield forces were to impose a break in continuity after an incident, and to give pause for thought so that the aggressor would have time to make up his mind whether he would call off his aggression or face all the dangers of a total war. I cannot help thinking how much better is that policy than our old policy of mobilisation. In the old days of big armies, there was no stopping the machinery of mobilisation once it had been put into operation. It went rolling along, and the nations were then more or less committed to war.
  General Norstad conceives of two types of warfare. The first is the one we hope will never happen—the nuclear deterrent war; the other, the war of shield forces strong enough to give pause to the aggressor. I do not believe that we ought to countenance the idea that there can be anything in between those two, such as a limited war, with conventional weapons, between the great Powers. We should lay it down as a principle that that must at all cost be avoided. Apart from its being the worst possible thing for us, because of our weakness in conventional forces, I am absolutely certain that, in these days, with the improvements there have been in conventional weapons, a conventional war, if allowed to start, must inevitably lead to the bigger, global war.
  It is in its beginning that we must stop war, and all the nations of the world must combine wholeheartedly towards that one end. People sometimes advocate something in between the other two types of war; some situation in which we would say, "All right, we won't have the deterrent, but this has got beyond a small war, "and would then countenance a limited war between the great nations with conventional weapons. It would be wrong, and out of the question for us to allow that—
  Mr. G. Brown: I am not quite clear what the hon. and gallant Member is seeking to prove. Is he arguing that it must be thermo-nuclear war, in any case?
  Sir J. Smyth: No. What I am arguing against is the acceptance in our own minds of the idea that it would be possible to have a big conventional war between the great nations. Some people
  1392
  hold that view. I am strongly against it. We know that we shall have to have the small "brush fire "war in defence of our own Colonies and that sort of thing; that will always happen. But I believe that we ought to set our faces sternly against the acceptance of a large-scale conventional war. We must not agree that that would be all right. It would, I am sure, lead to something worse. Let us stop it at its beginning. We should stop it in our own minds to begin with.
  Mr. G. Brown: What about the other chap's mind?
  Sir J. Smyth: My right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) made a very interesting speech yesterday about the battle for men's minds, and I think there is a great deal in that.
  General Norstad made one other important statement about the training of personnel. He said that it had been ascertained that it took a year fully to train a private soldier for the sort of duties he would have to undertake in N.A.T.O., and it took eighteen months to train a junior leader. From this, one can deduce that we shall be making a very much bigger comparative contribution than any of our Allies when we have an all-Regular Army, because all our people will be long-service men.
  I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister not only on his White Paper and its two predecessors but on giving confidence and enthusiasm to the youth of this country, in encouraging them to join up in the numbers they have to make his new, all-Regular defence force a success. He has not been given sufficient credit for that. It is all very well for people to say they would have done it had they been in power. The point is that my right hon. Friend is in power. He did it. All credit to him for it.
  8.22 p.m.
  Mr. K. Zilliacus: I find myself in considerable agreement with large parts of what the hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth) has said. In particular, I was very glad to hear him stress that the problem of our relations with the one-third of the world which has gone through a social revolution and founded a new society is essentially and fundamentally

  1393
  an economic and ideological problem rather than a military one. Foreign policy in this business cannot be separated from defence. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) said, we are in danger of concentrating far too much on military matters and misconceiving the real nature of the problem.
  If I may use a somewhat picturesque metaphor, I have often thought—I have fairly strong views about our so-called nuclear policy—that we are a little like the mad Captain Ahab in Herman Melville's "Moby Dick", who pitched upon the great white whale as the symbol of all evil in the world and set out to destroy it. In my view, however, Captain Ahab was less crazy than our defence people, because what he took on board the "Pequod "was whale-killing gear— harpoons, lances, ropes and so forth. He did not take mountain climbing equipment or big game rifles because he had confused Moby Dick with the Abominable Snowman. Yet this seems to be more or less our position today, in trying to meet the problems, challenges and dangers presented by that one-third of the world in military terms instead of economic, social and ideological terms.
  I belong to the, I believe, already substantial and growing minority in the Labour Party and the country who believe that we should renounce nuclear weapons unilaterally, totally and immediately. I do so because I agree, for instance, with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) said in the House on 23rd July, 1957, that one cannot use weapons of national suicide either as instruments of negotiation or as weapons of national defence. I agree with what The Times said yesterday, that one cannot use the threat to commit national suicide as a deterrent.
  If these nuclear weapons are no use for negotiation, defence or deterrence, I find it a little difficult to grasp what the point of them is. Indeed, all the way through, the debate has seemed to me to be very much of an "Annie, Get your Gun "debate, with my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) and supporting cast singing in chorus with the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence and his troupe, to the theme of
  "Anything you can do I can do better.
  I can do anything better than you."
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  That is not a very fruitful operation, because what they are arguing about is akin to an argument about who can best square the circle.
  It is really a massive understatement to say that one blames the Government for having failed to produce a coherent and effective defence policy. The plain truth is that we have no defence whatever. The Defence Minister himself admitted that on the 11th February, when he said that there is no such thing as defending this country against nuclear attack. The Observer defence correspondent, on 7th December, pointed out that we had never been in such danger as we are today, that the population of this country could be wiped out in a few hours by a shower of nuclear bomb carrying rockets. As for the Civil Defence fraud practised on the public, I thought that the replies of the Home Secretary and his Joint Under-Secretary at Question Time today were really something to shudder at as an example of sheer dishonesty, evasiveness and frivolity in regard to a terribly serious subject.
  The Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing): The hon. Gentleman seems to be putting forward some point of view, and he seems a little surprised that a defence debate should concern itself with armaments. I wonder whether he could, perhaps, develop that theme, because he certainly seems to be advancing an idea which is foreign to both the Opposition front bench and the Government Front Bench.
  Mr. Zilliacus: I certainly will, and I think that the hon. Gentleman will be quite satisfied that I have developed it by the time I have finished.
  I have already established that there is no such thing as the defence of this country. The Government rely on what they call deterrence, and deterrence means reliance on the protection of the American deterrent. This, of course, means reliance on the hope that the United States would posthumously avenge our radioactive ashes, whatever consolation there may be in that conception of the deterrent. The military foundations of that doctrine have already collapsed, because the idea of the great American deterrent was founded upon the assumption that the United States was virtually

  1395
  invulnerable, thanks to the North American Defence Command with its fence of radar, fighter patrols and so forth, while able, through the Strategic Air Command with its advanced bases, to deliver a crushing blow.
  We now have the verdict, for instance, of General James M. Gavin, former Chief of Research and Development of the United States Army, in his recent book, "War and Peace in the Space Age", in which he writes:
  "Our technical programmes"—
  that is the American programme—
  "have lagged behind those of the Soviets. They have achieved missiles of greater range, greater variety and greater payload than anything we possess… The Soviets will have in the van a missile and space programme well ahead of anything the West is capable of for many years."
  Lieutenant-General Sir Brian Horrocks, reviewing this book in the Sunday Times of 14th December, said:
  "The stark fact which emerges is that the Russians are forging ahead."
  The balance of power was tilting the wrong way. He confessed that he had been unduly complacent about relying on the imagined strength of the deterrent and on the conception of "the Western world sheltering behind the strong right arm of the United States".
  The United States Administration, early in January, yielding to the pressure of the Pentagon and intelligence chiefs, embarked on an accelerated programme for producing inter-continental ballistic missiles. They hope to produce 200 by 1962. However, the United States military intelligence estimates that the Soviet Union is already producing 15 I.C.B.M.s a month, will have 300 in eighteen months, 500 by 1961, and 1,000 by 1962. The Soviet Union already has twelve launching pads in Europe and the Far East to one American launching pad. In addition, the Americans console themselves with the fact that they have a few Thor rockets in this country, which is not much consolation for us because it is further estimated that they would be knocked out almost before they could be brought into action, and also the Soviet rockets are capable of delivering a devastating blow to the Strategic Air Command of the United States.
  This is partly exaggerated Pentagon propaganda to scare Congress and public
  1396
  opinion into voting more credits. This game has gone on for a long time in the United States. Nevertheless, there is enough reality behind it to show the utter fatuity and folly of the Minister of Defence's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) and myself on 11th February, when we asked him
  "to what extent Her Majesty's Government's defence policy is still based on the assumption, declared in the 1958 Defence White Paper, that Soviet progress in rocket development has not changed the military balance of power and that alleged all-round Western superiority in nuclear weapons is likely to increase rather than diminish."
  In answer, the Minister said:
  "I see no reason to modify the assessment of the military position, as set out in paragraphs 3 and 4 of the Defence White Paper of 1958."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th February, 1959; Vol. 599, c. 1161.]
  Paragraph 3 of the White Paper "Britain's Contribution to Peace and Security" reads:
  "Russia's successful launching of artificial satellites is evidence of her remarkable progress in rocket development. But it should not be thought that this has upset the balance of military power."
  Of course it should not be thought, but suppose that it is true. The White Paper continues:
  "… the overall superiority of the West is likely to increase rather than diminish, as a consequence of the advent of medium-range ballistic rockets. These weapons, against which there is at present no answer, could, from sites in Europe and elsewhere, dominate practically every target of importance in the Soviet Union."
  The only thing wrong with that is that the Soviet Union possesses more of these medium-range ballistic rockets, against which there is no answer, than we do.
  This policy, coupled with the Minister's insistence in his reply of 11th February that the Government remain wedded to the policy of using nuclear weapons first against a major attack by conventional arms, not only on this country, but on any Ally under N.A.T.O., S.E.AT.O. or the Bagdad Pact, practically pronounces the death sentence on the British people because we have no defence against nuclear attack. What the Minister is proposing is that we should provoke nuclear attack.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that we should do away altogether with nuclear weapons?
  Mr. Zilliacus: Yes, that is what I am suggesting. That is the argument which I am developing. I started by saying that, if nuclear weapons are no use as a deterrent for defence or as an instrument of negotiation, I fail to see what we want them for.
  The point which I want to emphasise is that the whole bottom has fallen out of the nuclear deterrent strategy. A person whom I do not often quote with agreement, Field Marshal Lord Montgomery, pointed this out on 24th October. He said:
  "In the event of Russian aggression with conventional forces, do you believe that the West would use its nuclear deterrent as a weapon against the cities of Russia, and receive in return Russian retaliation which would put the United Kingdom and the United States out of business? For us to act in this way would be to commit national suicide. I do not believe that it will happen."
  The Minister of Defence says that it will happen, and that is what I protest against. He is practically comdemning the British people to death with no appeal. The right hon. Member for Carshalton yesterday called him a "tough egg", the "toughest egg in the business". I would say, in addition, that he is a very bad egg and that his defence policy stinks.
  These are not just my personal views. They are, it seems to me, the views of most people who have a claim to be listened to in this matter. For instance, on 15th October The Times Defence Correspondent pointed out that the Soviet rocket developments made the nuclear deterrent strategy of the United States, on whose protection we rely, both ineffective and incredible, ineffective because of what Soviet rockets would do to the Strategic Air Command and the United States bases in Europe and Britain, and incredible because of the fearful consequences to the American people. He concluded:
  "We are driven to conclude that the only aggression a strategic nuclear armoury can credibly deter is a direct attack upon the nation that possesses it … For Britain this means that we shall have to stop relying on the American nuclear deterrent to deter aggressions that do not directly involve American territory."
  Then, we had The Times leader yesterday saying that
  'A threat to commit suicide is not a national defence policy."
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  Neither, I would add, is it an effective way to deter an attack by conventional arms on another country.
  We are now told that the conclusion to be drawn is that we must have a nuclear deterrent of our own. The implication behind that is that our cause would be so bad that even the United States would not support us, and our intransigence would be so great that rather than agree to policies of compromise that the United States, the United Nations and everybody else proposed, we would go ahead and immolate the people of this country and try to destroy most of the human race. As hard cases make bad law, so almost insanely improbable suppositions make an extremely bad defence or foreign policy. This kind of thing is too far-fetched and too intellectually silly and morally abominable to be seriously entertained. This is a civilised country. It is not a country of madmen.
  The next step having disposed of the great nuclear deterrent fraud and fallacy, is the question of the tactical use of atomic weapons. According to The Times defence correspondent on 15th December, in the course of a detailed article on the techniques and strategy of S.H.A.P.E. and N.A.T.O. headquarters,
  "The S.H.A.P.E. view is that if both sides were to use tactical atomic weapons the war could not remain limited."
  That is only common sense, because whereas, when the United States still had a decisive superiority in nuclear weapons and was supposed to be relatively invulnerable, it would be possible to go on being one up on the Soviet Union, now that the rôles have at least been equalised, if not reversed, there is no reason that I can see for assuming that the Soviet Union would in a gentlemanly spirit accept defeat rather than increase the calibre of the weapons that she was using on her side to outbalance the other side.
  The really astonishing point was that made by the Minister of Defence, again on 11th February. He produced an amazing doctrine. He said:
  "The question whether a weapon is being used in a strategic or a tactical rôle depends not upon its explosive power, but on the nature and location of the target …there is no way of drawing a line between what is a tactical and what is a strategic weapon except in relation to the target against which it is used. If, for example, an H.E. bomb were to be dropped on Moscow I would consider

  1399
  that to be a strategic weapon."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th February, 1959; Vol. 599, c. 1155–6.]
  Is the converse true? Would a 10-megaton bomb dropped on a railway junction or a staff headquarters or a munitions factory be considered to be a tactical weapon, even if it killed a few million people and had a radioactive fallout of several thousand square miles? What does this doctrine mean? Does it mean that field commanders will be allowed at their discretion to handle every type of nuclear weapon, from the smallest atomic bomb to the greatest hydrogen bomb, provided that they let them loose only on tactical targets? Or, alternatively, are all nuclear weapons of whatever calibre, from the smallest to the greatest, to be used only with the prior assent of the United States President and the British Prime Minister? What does this doctrine mean? When I asked the Minister of Defence what it meant he took refuge in military security considerations, which at least showed that he had the sense to know that his policy would be a little difficult to defend to the people of this country.
  Now we come to our own position as a nuclear power. Here, too, public opinion is being abundantly misled by the conception of our being somewhere nearly on the same footing as the United States and the Soviet Union, the truth being that the best informed estimates vary between a minimum of five and a maximum of fifty for our H-bombs, whereas the United States is turning out enough fissile material annually to produce—
  Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of order. I have three times protested quietly that I have no objection to my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench talking in conversation together rather than listening to the speech that is being made, but I think they ought to do it quietly enough to enable the rest of us to hear what is going on.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Gordon Touche): I did not hear any noisy conversation.
  Mr. Zilliacus: The United States is now producing enough fissile material to produce between 30,000 and 40,000 Hiroshima bombs annually, and the Soviet Union is not far behind. As to the
  1400
  means of delivery, we have a bomber force very much smaller than either the Americans or the Russians, and it is certainly obsolescent, if not obsolete, as compared with rockets as a means of delivery.
  Civil defence is hardly worth talking about, except to quote what the correspondent of The Times said on this subject:
  "The civil population have been left virtually unprotected. There is no active or air defence of towns and cities, and it is candidly recognised that at present there is no means of providing such defence. Civil defence, though still an integral part of the defence plan, according to the last Defence White Paper"—
  and according to this one—
  "is, in fact, only a skeleton organisation. There is no shelter or evacuation policy, and the £6,500,000 voted for civil defence this year is a token figure."
  That is the position with our wonderful defence policy. The obvious conclusion and again I do not press my own opinion, because I am quoting The Times defence correspondent is:
  "The Government's policy of threatening to resort to nuclear weapons against an attack with conventional arms [again any member of N.A.T.O., S.E.A.T.O. or the Bagdad Pact]"—
  and this was confirmed by the Minister of Defence on February 11th—
  "is credible so long as the West had an overwhelming superiority in nuclear weapons and America remained virtually invulnerable. These conditions no longer exist. For Britain to make such threats on her own, except against the bombing of Britain, is quite unrealistic, for her vulnerability is patent to everyone."
  The Observer comes to the conclusion:
  "It appears doubtful that we either have, or ever will have, an independent deterrent based on V-bombers and H-bombs. Whatever the British believe, or affect to believe, about this, both the Americans and the Russians must have a good idea of the truth."
  In other words, our defence policy is a tissue of mendacity and make-believe. It is an audacious fraud practised on the people, and it is fooling no one, except possibly those who invented the policy and tried to pass it off on the country.
  As to the cost, it is rapidly getting far beyond our means. It is one of the Government's major miscalculations to believe that we could stay in the nuclear arms race more or less on the cheap. Of course, we cannot. The cost of the Blue Streak missile alone is estimated at

  1401
  about £500 million before the thing is completed. The cost of staying in the arms race, it is reckoned, will rapidly rise to about £200 million a year above the present level. The Government have already entered into very expensive— enormously expensive—contracts in this field, but naturally nothing of this will be heard this side of the election, at any rate. Here again I do not rely on my own personal opinion, and I quote the Conservative newspaper, the Observer, whose defence correspondent said on 7th December:
  "The political decision to retain the trappings of a first-class power carried with it consequences which, unless rigidly controlled, could gravely distort the whole United Kingdom's defence effort… The competing giants of Russia and America soon made our own attempts to remain in the game look pitiful… For us Pelion was piled on Ossa. We were outclassed in scientific effort, money, materials of all kinds including fissile, and our economic system was showing signs of distress."
  What is the point of all this? Is it supposed to impress the Russians? If so, I can quote that old phrase of the Duke of Wellington, "I do not know what they will do to the enemy, but, by God, they frighten me!"
  The Times yesterday rather sarcastically put it that all we seemed to have achieved was to get blue prints for American weapons rather than influence in Washington… In so far as we have any influence, it added, it is due to such non-military factors as our tradition, stability and experience in world affairs.
  I believe that that is the way out. What we should contribute to this situation is not a vain attempt to keep up in this crazy nuclear arms race, but a certain amount of political wisdom. If only what the Prime Minister said in Moscow the other day was seriously meant, it showed a beginning of wisdom in this respect. He said:
  "I wish with all my heart that this competition with ever more terrible weapons of destruction could cease. It is not that we fear acts of calculated aggression and I hope that you do not. In modern conditions such aggression between great powers at least would be suicidal folly. At the same time it is impossible to hide from ourselves the dangers of a war by miscalculation or by muddle. In such circumstances it is the duty of statesmen to see if it is possible to establish some basis of confidence, or treaty, or in some other way way to reduce this danger."
  He went on to speak of the fact that during the war we and the Soviet Union
  1402
  had a common interest in defeating a common enemy and he said:
  "When I reflect on the present situation in the world I ask myself, have we not today at least an equal common interest. This common interest is peace. In one way or another, despite all difficulties and obstacles let us unite in the name of peace."
  If we once admit that the real danger is not deliberate aggression but miscalculation and muddle and that we have a common interest in peace, obviously the way out of this business is to seek joint political arrangements and joint disarmament arrangements and a joint settlement in Europe, very much on the lines of the constructive and reasonable proposals which have been made again and again by my right hon. Friends, proposals which we know would in fact serve as a basis for negotiation and deliver the world from this nightmare.
  8.49 p.m.
  Mr. John Strachey: My hon. Friend the Member for Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) will not expect me to follow him in any great detail. It is interesting that his was the only speech clearly opposed to the West in general having a deterrent. On the other hand, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), the Leader of the Liberal Party, was opposed to Great Britain having a deterrent, or, at any rate, appeared on the whole to be opposed to that, although it was a little difficult to see just where he stood on the subject. I want to refer to that subject.
  Mr. Frank Beswick: Perhaps my right hon. Friend will allow me to say, for the record, that the only reason that only one speech has been made against this country's possession of the H-bomb is that only one Member of that view has been called.
  Mr. Strachey: My hon. Friend is getting a little near to criticising the Chair. How did the Chair know what hon. Members intended to say?
  Mr. S. Silverman: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to interrupt?
  Mr. Strachey: Well, it is not so much hon. Friends but hon. Jacks-in-the-Box.
  Mr. Silverman: The right hon. Gentleman—I will call him that in case he finds the other word offensive in view of his behaviour—might bear in mind

  1403
  that, whatever the occupant of the Chair may know, he himself has excellent reason to know that there are large numbers of members of his party in the House and a very large number of supporters of the party in the country who, however mistakenly in his opinion, share my hon. Friend's view, and therefore he ought not to sneer.
  Mr. Strachey: Curiously enough, my next sentence was going to be that I was glad there had been one speech made from that point of view, because clearly it was one which should be heard. I was going on to discuss something which was even more curious. The Leader of the Liberal Party seemed to say, though he was not quite clear, that Britain ought not have an individual deterrent of her own. He dissociated himself from the other view strongly, saying—
  "I am not a pacifist and I do not deny the need for the deterrent… we are perfectly willing that this country should make a contribution to her nuclear programme if it is wanted."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1190.]
  He was referring to America at that point. That seems to me to be a curious point of view. We are apparently to go to America and ask whether she wants us to make a contribution to a deterrent. He went on to say later that we might make that not in the form of a deterrent of our own but as a contribution in money. That also seems to me to be a curious proposal. I cannot help feeling that the idea that we should depend on the American deterrent is really only a proposal for military integration with America carried to an extreme point.
  I am not totally opposed to a certain reasonable degree of military integration between the N.A.T.O. Allies, but this would be carrying it too far, because the further we push military integration in whatever respect, the more totally dependent we become on our Allies. That is inevitable. We might propose that we should produce all the field guns and that America should produce all the howitzers. Integration can be pushed to any point one wishes but it seems to me that this is pushing it too far.
  The argument is such a curious one because—and here I must be frank with the Leader of the Liberal Party—those are not the reasons why he is pushing this
  1404
  view. He is pushing it because there is behind it the idea that it would be a popular thing to say that Britain should not have her own deterrent and should not make these beastly things—and they are beastly things, incredibly horrible things—and that it will be all right because the Americans have them.
  Mr. Grimond: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman should impute those motives to me without any evidence. After all, he himself wrote a pamphlet urging us all to give up nuclear bombs, which was an implication that this could be done easily. I might as well say to him that there are many people in this country, people of his own party, who share this view, possibly wrongly, but it should not necessarily be attributed to the worst motives.
  Mr. Strachey: I stick to the view expressed in the pamphlet which the hon. Gentleman mentions, that the only possible form of disarmament is multilateral, in which all three nations give up these weapons.
  Mr. Grimond: It would be very nice.
  Mr. Strachey: The hon. Gentleman seems to be completely defeatist about disarmament. I cannot free my mind from the suspicion that the extraordinary enthusiasm he suddenly brings out for military integration with the United States in the most extreme form has behind it the idea that it would be very nice if we could say that we were not making any nuclear weapons. That is an unworthy motive. I have said it before, and I say it again.
  The Amendment deplores the incoherence of our defence policy, and the inadequacies of the conventional armaments which the Government have provided. Although many speeches were made from hon. Members opposite, nearly every one of which contained compliments to the Minister of Defence, most of them went on to make exceedingly damaging criticisms, in specific cases, of the arms which have been provided for our forces. They have therefore given a great deal of support to the Amendment.
  The main fact which came out of the speech of the Minister of Defence was that this very short and scrappy White Paper was simply a progress report, which

  1405
  did not need to have any new policy or doctrine in it because the policy and doctrine which had been provided in the two previous years still stood. The right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) actually called the White Paper a paper of reaffirmation. It is worth while for the House to notice what that doctrine was, since we are told that it still stands. I want to quote from paragraphs 12 and 13 of last year's White Paper, which contained the essential doctrine, or the defence concept, which the Minister reaffirms as the basis for our defence effort. Paragraph 12 says:
  "In fact, the strategy of N.A.T.O. is based on the frank recognition that a full-scale Soviet attack could not be repelled without resort to a massive nuclear bombardment of the sources of power in Russia."
  Paragraph 13 says:
  "It is best that these stark facts should be stated plainly; since the one thing which might conceivably tempt the Soviet Union into military adventure would be the erroneous belief that the West, if attacked, would flinch from using its nuclear power."
  I can only tell the Minister of Defence that if he stands by that doctrine very few other people in the world do, for the simple reason that it is no longer credible that Soviet aggression can be deterred by the threat of the West to resort to the use of the ultimate thermo-nuclear deterrent against the Russian cities and centres of population as its first and only response. I can only refer again to the leading article in The Times of yesterday. This was a very unkind but quite justified characterisation, which stated that a threat to commit suicide is not a rational defence policy.
  Since an approximate nuclear parity has been reached between the West and the East the doctrine of last year's White Paper, which we are told still stands, can be interpreted as nothing but a threat to commit suicide. If the Minister of Defence replies that we are flinching from it, I would ask him to come off these mock heroics. If the West did not flinch from the threat of using the ultimate thermo-nuclear deterrent on Russia as the first and only response to any act of Russian aggression, the West would be criminal lunatics. This doctrine is really untenable and yet this preposterous view is reaffirmed to us this year. It might be said by hon. Members opposite—
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for
  1406
  giving way. Is he not now advocating unilateral nuclear disarmament?
  Mr. Strachey: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is a little impatient. It may be said, of course, that although this doctrine is being reaffirmed in words, in practice the Minister of Defence has retreated very much from it and is paying a great deal more attention to conventional arms and armaments, and I think that is partly true. It may be asked: does it matter if in words he is reaffirming the preposterous doctrine of last year?
  Mr. Sandys: I think that the right hon. Gentleman should be accurate in what he says before he starts arguing whether we have changed our minds. He talked about massive nuclear retaliation as the first and only response to any Soviet attack. If he reads paragraph 12 of last year's White Paper he will see that it refers to major attacks in one case and a full-scale Soviet attack in another.
  Mr. Strachey: I read the words out from the White Paper—"a major Soviet attack". I am perfectly willing to accept the word "major". It does matter that the Minister sticks to that doctrine because it means that if he retreats from it in practice he does not retreat to any other coherent doctrine to put in its stead; he simply retreats to no doctrine at all, and that leads to the incoherencies and inadequacies we complain of in our Amendment in the whole practical defence programme of the Government.
  These considerations were brought home to me on a recent visit to the United States of America where I had the opportunity of talking to a good many of their defence experts. I can tell the Minister of Defence, for his comfort, that he has still a few adherents to his doctrine in the United States. They are mainly Air Force colonels, but they are a rapidly dwindling band, and the majority of the defence experts whom I met in the United State were far in advance of the Minister of Defence and had a very much more enlightened point of view on this matter than he has.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: It has taken them a long while to reach our position.
  Mr. Strachey: The Minister of Defence got stuck before they did. The majority of their defence experts whom I

  1407
  met were coming, or had come, to the alternative view which I can set out this evening. It is a view which, I think, can be called quite simply" graduated resistance. "It is that in a major case of Russian aggression—I use the word "major "each time and if I omit to use it the right hon. Gentleman can understand it—we must have the capability at any rate of meeting such acts at three levels and at three stages. We must have the capability of meeting them and so have the capability of meeting even major acts of Russian aggression by conventional means.
  That does not mean that we have to match every Russian division, the whole 200 of them, with 200 divisions. That is quite an artificial idea. The fallacy of that is that the Russians do not, no more than N.A.T.O., keep anything like 200 divisions anywhere near the line across Germany. They keep 25, as a matter of fact, and defence experts in other countries whom I have spoken to consider that only about 100 could really be deployed. The N.A.T.O. authorities tell us—
  Sir J. Smyth: This is an important point and one which we discussed in the last defence debate. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would agree that we could not undertake a conventional war without reintroducing conscription.
  Mr. Strachey: I do not agree at all.
  Most defence experts agree that the Russians could probably bring to bear anything up to 100 divisions. Our N.A.T.O. officers tell us that N.A.T.O. is aiming at and is fairly well in sight of about 28½ divisions which gives us a proportion of nearly one-to-three. Most defence experts on land warfare are inclined to think that that proportion is very strong for defence purposes; so I believe it completely wrong to think that a Russian major aggression cannot be resisted in the first instance. It may not be possible to hold it for ever, but that is a different matter.
  I am far from saying that the existing N.A.T.O. forces are adequate It is one of our main criticisms that they are not. That is because of the grudging attitude which the Government in general and the Minister of Defence in particular have adopted towards the British ground contribution to N.A.T.O. The Times put it
  1408
  very well, if again very cruelly, when it said that the Government seemed to regard the British contribution to N.A.T.O. and the British pledge to make a contribution to N.A.T.O. as a millstone left round their necks by Sir Anthony Eden. No one would deny that Sir Anthony Eden left some millstones round the necks of the members of the present Government, but I do not think that was one of them. The pledge to make an adequate British contribution to the ground forces of N.A.T.O was a perfectly proper one.
  Most of the trouble arises because the doctrine of the Minister of Defence, as put out in the two previous White Papers, has indicated that he did not care very much for anything except the grand thermo-nuclear deterrent. He did not think anything else mattered much and he was prepared to save money, if he could, on those other things.
  Therefore, it is only too true that the British contribution to N.A.T.O. today both in quantity and, I am afraid, in the quality of its equipment is, I should say, only barely, if at all, adequate for what I put to the House is the absolutely indispensable rôle of being able to make a resistance to a major act of aggression by Russia without plunging us into a nuclear holocaust.
  The question of Army equipment and its adequacy brings me to the most unfortunate speech made earlier today by the Minister of Supply in reply to the admirable speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele). The right hon. Gentleman gave us a long list of all the things which the Army was going to get, one day. No doubt the Army will get this excellent new equipment of which the Minister spoke, but not one of these items has arrived yet; and this after, not the third, but the eighth year of Conservative rule.
  The right hon. Gentleman seemed to forget that we were given by him, and by the Minister of Defence, three reasons for the admitted inadequacy and obsolescence of present-day Army equipment. The reason given by the Minister of Defence was that we had to use up our big stocks of equipment and of course there is something in that. It is a very tempting thing to do. But it also expresses the view of the right hon. Gentleman that this was not a thing that mattered; the only thing that matters being the thermo-nuclear deterrent.

  1409
  But the Minister of Supply gave two further strange reasons. One was that the Army was so traditionally minded that its equipment could not be changed quickly. That is one of the quaintest reasons I have ever heard. Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that if we went to the troops, from the generals to the privates, and offered them good, modern, new and up-to-date equipment, they would be so conservative-minded that they would not take it? He must tell that to the Marines and not to the Army.
  Then he gave another reason. He said that it could not be done when it had to be linked with the abolition of National Service and the introduction of a smaller all-professional Regular Army. He went on to say, and implied quite clearly, that it would have been too expensive to arm adequately the National Service man today. That is a disastrous thing to say. Did he not think of the morale of the National Service man when he said that? This should be repudiated by the Minister of Defence quite specifically, without regard to the feelings and even without regard to the position of the Minister of Supply. I hope that the Minister of Defence will make it clear that there was no element of this in the mind of the Government which they postponed, as they admit they have, the re-equipment of the Army.
  This shows clearly and at once why a sound military concept or doctrine matters so much. We get all the priorities and considerations wrong unless we have it. I found that the doctrine which I am preaching was not only accepted but was preached to me in the United States of America. It is vital to have ground forces capable of offering resistance, and very substantial resistance, without resort to nuclear arms. Let me hasten to add that the American defence experts and myself, and my right hon. Friends, are not denying because of that that the ground forces have also to be armed with tactical nuclear weapons, and that for three simple reasons.
  The simplest reason of all is that the Russians have them and that we cannot ask men to stand in line against the Russians without them. The second reason is that the Russians might use them and we cannot assume that if they committed an act of aggression it would necessarily be with conventional weapons only. The third reason is that even if
  1410
  the Russians did move initially only with conventional weapons we might be overrun by sheer force of numbers and at that point we must have the capability and capacity to use nuclear weapons if we consider that at that stage it will benefit us to do so.
  Those are the simple reasons why tactical nuclear weapons are an absolute necessity to the Army today But at that second stage, we still do not resort to the Minister of Defence's paragraph 12 doctrine and go straight to the thermonuclear deterrent. We shall still try to limit the war and stop it at the second stage of tactical nuclear weapons. If any of my hon. Friends asked me, "What hope is there, once tactical nuclear weapons have been used, of arresting the war and not going on to thermo-nuclear war?" I should say, "I do not know, but as the use of thermo-nuclear weapons from either side means the destruction of us all, we must take any opportunity of not going on to them. "To fail to arrest the conflict at the tactical nuclear weapon stage is rather like a condemned man refusing to appeal because he thinks there is very little chance of his appeal being successful. If there is any chance at all, he should appeal.
  Again, it is one of the worst features of the doctrine of the Minister of Defence that it makes no provision for attempting to arrest the war and so prevent the final fall into total destruction, at the level of tactical nuclear weapons. This is something which appears to be increasingly understood everywhere except on the Government Front Bench.
  Then there is the third stage where we must have in the hands of the West— and, for the reasons I have given, I believe in the hands of this country also —the ultimate nuclear deterrent because, if we have not got that, the Russians at any moment can trump our card by resort to it. When I say that in my view a major act of Russian aggression must be met first at the conventional level and, if that fails, at the tactical nuclear level, and only if that fails at the thermo-nuclear level, I am referring to a major act of Russian aggression wherever it may take place.
  Of course, there are plenty of objections which can be urged against this doctrine of graduated resistance, of resistance by stages in this way. Many of

  1411
  them are familiar, but I ask the House to think what are the alternatives. There are only two alternatives. There is the alternative of no resistance at all, or there is the alternative of paragraph 12, the immediate resort, in the first instance, to thermo-nuclear war. I put it to the House that neither of those alternatives is acceptable at all and that, therefore, some view of graduated resistance of this sort is one to which sooner or later we shall all quite inevitably be driven.
  Paradoxically enough, the doctrine of paragraph 12 of last year's White Paper, immediate resort to thermo-nuclear war, is the perfect recipe for capitulation because, if we tell people there is no way of resisting any major act of aggression except by the total response of thermonuclear war—which means blowing up the Russians and being blown up by them and blowing up the world generally—if we tell them there is nothing but that from the word" go", then more and more people will come to the view that there is no point in and no possibility of resistance at all. Therefore, it is really indispensable to give the people the hope and the possibility—which genuinely exists if we make the right preparations for it—of resistance, but short of going to the thermo-nuclear holocaust.
  For that, if we are honest, we must provide an adequate means to do it or we are deceiving people. Because there has been no doctrine, or the wrong doctrine—I do not really know which—as has emerged from both sides of the House in this debate, we are not providing adequate forces, adequately armed, for this purpose. What we have before us is not really a White Paper at all. It is only a shopping list and a shopping list which has no priority in it because no one has thought out what is the purpose of the armaments which are ordered in this form.
  I went through the shopping list and looked at one or two of the main items. Very few, if any, are purchased or paid for. We are asked to provide modernised armaments for the Army which are very badly needed and intensely urgent. We are also asked for a modernised Navy, including four guided missile ships and later the atomic submarine and two kinds of naval guided missiles.
  1412
  We are asked for a new fleet of transport aircraft, the Britannias, Britannics and Argosies. We are asked for a new tactical all-purpose bomber, the T.S.R.2, more V-bombers with stand-off bombs for them which are really intermediate ballistic missiles mounted on bombers, an increase of kiloton bombs and an increased supply of megaton bombs. We are asked to provide for the development of Blue Streak, in itself an enormous project on which yesterday The Times poured a jug of icy water and which has been strongly criticised by hon. Members opposite. I do not pretend that I have the knowledge to take a strong view on it, but it seems to arouse a great many doubts in the minds of a great many people.
  Then comes the development of air defence, with the new Lightning fighter. with the Firestreak air-to-air guided missile and four separate ground-to-air guided missiles—Bloodhound, Thunder-bird, Seaslug and Seacat. Is it right that we should have four of these? No doubt each has its special characteristic, but can we free our minds from the view that each of the other Services had to have one of these and the Navy had to have two of them? It is very possible that some consideration of that sort entered into it. None of these is bought or paid for yet. None of these is in the £11,000 million expenditure of which we complain This is all to come.
  Shall I tell the Minister of Defence what will happen if he tries to develop all these weapon systems? I counted 24 of them in his White Paper. If he tries to develop all of them, he will in practice develop none. They will all reach the prototype stage and they will never go into production, because they will be obsolete, or the cost of defence will rise to quite astronomical levels and we shall not be able to do anything else.
  I had sympathy for that part of the speeech of the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head). I had not sympathy with his conclusions, because it is not a question of information or propaganda. If we want to hold the uncommitted and undeveloped world, it is not better propaganda or more security measures that we want. It is the provision of capital for capital development, and that is far more expensive. Defence cannot make a contribution to that, unless

  1413
  we succeed in securing general and all-round disarmament. That is the only real way. No moving about of the defence programme can do much towards providing the massive sums that are needed for that.
  This shopping list has no priorities in it. It does not indicate, and nothing that the Minister of Defence has said has indicated, which of these 24 major projects is more important than the others. Is the provision of an air transportable Army more important than the four guided missile ships? Is it more important to develop stand-off bombs than Blue Streak and the like? This is because there has been no doctrine from which priorities can emerge. I very much believe that there is no doctrine because, if one has a doctrine and makes priorities from it, one is bound to offend one Service or another. One is bound to give priority for the projects of one Service over the others.
  Our main criticism is that, in retreating from what we are the first to agree was the insanely wrong defence doctrine of paragraphs 12 and 13 of the Defence White Paper of last year, the Minister of Defence has given us no coherent doctrine in its place and has simply retired on to a shopping list. I realise the undoubted difficulties of fixing these priorities and the responsibilities which would fall on the Minister if he did. But that is his job.
  In the midst of some rather elaborate and mixed metaphors, he referred to horse racing. I realise that it is very difficult to back winners in a horse race. My sporting friends tell me that there is just one way of being absolutely sure of losing in a horse race, and that is to back every horse in the race for an equal amount of money. One is bound to lose then. That is really what the Minister of Defence is doing in this White Paper. [Interruption.] It would seem that hon. Members do not think that that is right, but I am told that the bookies arrange their books in such a way that if one does that one must lose. However, I yield to their superior knowledge in these matters.
  To sum up our argument, last year's doctrine seemed wrong to us. It has been replaced by nothing this year. The conduct of the Minister of Defence reminds me of something that my old Latin master
  1414
  used to say at school—[An HON. MEMBER:"Eton."] Yes, it was Eton, and as the name of the school has been mentioned perhaps I should mention the name of the master. It was "Bummy" Wells.
  I dare say that several hon. Members opposite, and some hon. Members on this side, will recollect that when we made a particularly wild guess at the meaning of a Latin word, when we had not the slightest idea of its meaning, "Bummy "Wells used to say, "Bold, but wrong. "Over the last two years, the Minister of Defence has been bold, but wrong—but this year he is not even bold.
  9.27 p.m.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. Duncan Sandys): This year, not bold—but not wrong. At any rate, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) and I seem to have two things in common: a common defence policy and the same school tie.
  We have had a very good debate. Naturally, as we get towards the end of a two-day debate, those who take part feel that they have to warm things up a little, but, by and large, we have had a very objective, serious discussion on important issues of national defence and international security.
  A great number of points have been made, some—which the right hon. Gentleman would, perhaps, describe as part of the shopping list—might more properly be discussed further in the debates on the Service Estimates. I propose to ask my right hon. Friends to reply, as far as possible, during the course of those debates to those points with which I am not able to deal this evening. But I will try to deal with some of the larger issues that have been raised.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) made one of his spirited interventions. If I may say so, he speaks with much greater fluency now than he used to when he spoke as Minister of Defence. He reminded us—and I do so much agree with him—that the background to the whole of defence is the desire, which we all share, to see real world disarmament brought about; and that any form of defence is only a second best. It is only an interim measure. pending the achievement of what we all wish to see come about—that must be all round disarmament, by which I mean disarmament on

  1415
  the conventional as well as on the nuclear side.
  The hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus), who always takes especial pleasure in recording any progress in Communist military power, and who, I understand, was a little unhappy to find such close proximity of view between the Opposition Front Bench and the Government Front Bench, recommended the abolition of the nuclear deterrent altogether. I am quite sure that the elimination of nuclear weapons by itself would not make peace any more sure.
  Several hon. Members expressed the view that a major war today is unlikely. I think that they are absolutely right. But what is the reason? Throughout history, men and nations have been prepared to go to war if they thought they could achieve their ends without too much cost to themselves. Human character has not changed. The change is this. Everyone now knows that aggression, if it involves nuclear war, cannot conceivably pay. No one likes the situation in which peace rests upon fear of the hydrogen bomb. But I would say to the hon. Member for Gorton and to the many others who would like to have supported his views from the benches opposite during our debate, that before we do away with the bomb we must be quite sure that we have some other method of preserving peace to put in its place. Otherwise, we shall find that we have merely increased the chances of large scale conventional war. And I ask those who are mesmerised by the destructive power of the hydrogen bomb not to forget the horrors and miseries of so-called conventional warfare.
  It is well to realise also that no large scale war between great Powers would for long remain conventional. The moment hostilities broke out there would be a mad race on both sides to produce nuclear weapons. From such calculations as I have been able to make, I believe that a country possessing the knowledge and plant and using fissile materials from civil reactors could make nuclear bombs within six months of the outbreak of war. It is, therefore, entirely wrong to imagine that, by eliminating nuclear weapons, we should eliminate nuclear war. All one would do would be to increase the
  1416
  chances of conventional war which might quickly turn into nuclear war.
  The debate has largely centred upon the balance which should be maintained between conventional and nuclear weapons. At the N.A.T.O. meeting in Paris last December, the Council reaffirmed that N.A.T.O. defensive strategy continues to be based not only on the maintenance of effective shield forces on the spot but also—these axe the words of the declaration of the Council, and I draw the attention of the right hon. Member for Dundee, West to them, since he said that I was isolated in believing that the nuclear deterrent still played an important part—
  Mr. Strachey: No, I did not say anything of the sort.
  Mr. Sandys: Well, the right hon. Gentleman is on the record. As I was saying, N.A.T.O. relies not only on the shield forces but also—and these are the words of the N.A.T.O. resolution—
  "on the manifest will to use nuclear retaliatory forces to repel aggression."
  It is no good imagining that the shield by itself could be made sufficient to deal with all forms of attack which may be made upon us. [Interruption.] He has not said it, but he has tried to distort what I have said. What I said, which is in full accord with the N.A.T.O. strategy, is that in the event of a large-scale major attack—those were the words used—it would no doubt be necessary to use nuclear retaliatory forces.
  Mr. Strachey: This is important, and, of course, there is a difference of opinion between us. I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that an ever-increasing number of defence experts in America, even more than here, take the view that the shield forces must be made adequate to meet, in the first instance, even a major Russian conventional attack. That is the issue. I know that the Minister of Defence utterly disagrees with me on it, but it is a very important issue, one which we ought to argue out.
  Mr. Sandys: I shall try to say something about that later.
  There is also the matter which was raised in the Amendments in the debates on previous White Papers last year and the year before, during which the Opposition said that the Government were

  1417
  placing too much emphasis upon the nuclear deterrent. I am glad to see that that did not feature in the Amendment this year, although it has crept into one or two speeches from the benches opposite.
  I think it is now becoming generally recognised that if Britain is to make her contribution to the nuclear deterrent the proportion of our total defence expenditure which we are now devoting to it is not excessive. Expenditure on the V-bomber force, ballistic rockets and nuclear weapons, including research and development, continues to run at about 10 per cent. of our total Defence Estimates. Expenditure on the protection of the deterrent bases represents about a further 10 per cent. Of this expenditure, about two-thirds is in respect of elements of Fighter Command, which would still be needed even if Britain ceased to make a contribution to the deterrent.
  Those who advocate that we should devote less effort to the deterrent and more to conventional forces will thus see how very limited is the scope for any switch of resources. Even supposing that we should abandon the nuclear deterrent altogether—which is not recommended by the party opposite—and spent the money thus saved on conventional forces, the resultant increase in conventional strength would be altogether negligible in comparison with the loss of military power and influence which we would suffer by giving up the nuclear deterrent.
  Having based the whole of the Labour Party's defence policy on the nuclear deterrent, the right hon. Member for Dundee, West proceeded to try to discredit the whole idea. Also, several hon. Members have questioned the continued validity of the nuclear deterrent. As I understand it, the effectiveness of the nuclear deterrent depends on two things. First, upon the power to inflict upon the aggressor a degree of injury greater than he is prepared to face. Secondly, the ability to convince him that there exists the will to use this power should the need arise.
  The United States—and, after all, we are talking here about the nuclear power of the West, which primarily rests in the hands of the United States—unquestionably possesses the ability to hit back on
  1418
  a truly annihilating scale. It is most improbable that her retaliatory bases could be knocked out by a surprise attack owing to their wide dispersal. However, the question being asked is whether in a few years' time, when the United States will be equally vulnerable, a future American Government will still have the will to use its nuclear power. I think that no one has any doubt that, if a direct attack were made upon the United States, the Americans, regardless of the consequences, would retaliate with a massive nuclear counter-offensive. The point in question is whether, if the attack were made not on the United States but on one of her N.A.T.O. Allies in Europe, the Americans then would react in the same uncompromising manner. We have absolutely no doubts on this score, but since the issue has been widely discussed it is best to speak frankly about it.
  It seems to us inconceivable that the United States could afford to stand by while Europe was overrun, for if once Europe were absorbed into the Soviet system the whole of Asia and Africa would follow very quickly afterwards. In a world dominated by Communist power. the United States, notwithstanding her great resources, could not hope to survive for very long as an island of freedom. Thus we see no reason to fear any change in American policy, which is based on a recognition of the inescapable fact that the fate and freedom of the American people and those of her Western Allies are inseparable.
  The United States has given categorical assurances that she will regard an attack upon any N.A.T.O. country as an attack upon herself and will come to its aid with all necessary force. Her Majesty's Government place complete reliance upon these solemn undertakings.
  While accepting that the Western strategic deterrent should be maintained, the Leader of the Liberal Party, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), advocated that Britain should cease to make her own contribution to it. The hon. Member said that the British nuclear deterrent was so small and insignificant as to be of no practical value. He thought that it would be much better to leave all that to the Americans. The hon. Member is, of course, entitled to his opinion. All I can say is that it is not shared by the Americans themselves, who

  1419
  attach considerable importance to the part which Britain is playing.
  The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) referred to his visit to the headquarters of the Strategic Air Command at Omaha. I cannot do better than quote a recent statement by the Commander of the United States Strategic Air Command, General Power, who said:
  "The British V-bomber force, with its high-performance jet aircraft and thermo-nuclear weapons, is an essential element of the Western deterrent and it has an important place in our joint operational plans, which are now fully co-ordinated."
  He went on to say:
  "Should the free world ever be attacked by the Soviet Union, rapid reaction would be vital. Having regard to Britain's closer proximity, we rely on her V-bombers to provide an important part of the first wave of the allied retaliatory force. I am therefore particularly glad to observe the steadily growing combat capability and state of readiness of R.A.F. Bomber Command."
  That is how the value of the British contribution to the Western deterrent is assessed in the United States by those who know the position.
  I should have liked to go on to explain why, in my opinion, the possession by Britain of a separate element of nuclear power is not only a valuable contribution—
  Mr. Paget: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Sandys: I am sorry, I have a lot to say. I would like to have gone on to explain why I think that in addition to our contribution to the combined deterrent the possession by Britain of an element of nuclear power might also, in certain circumstances, be a decisive factor in preventing war by miscalculation. However, I do not propose to pursue this last point, since it might lead me on to delicate ground. At a time when my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is having talks in Russia, I am naturally anxious not to make a controversial speech. The House will, I am sure, understand.
  I come now to say a word about the defence policy of the Liberal Party as a whole. [HON. MEMBERS:"Why waste time?"] I think it is worth while. It was explained by the hon. Gentleman, and I will just read out what I understood
  1420
  to be the policy, but I will not comment on it. First, the Western nuclear deterrent should be maintained. Second, Britain should stop making hydrogen bombs, but should contribute to the deterrent by research and cash payments. Third, Britain should nevertheless continue for a while to make tactical atomic bombs. Fourth, America should provide all the nuclear deterrent forces, but these should be placed under the control of all the Western countries jointly. Fifth, we and our Allies should build up our conventional forces sufficiently to resist a conventional attack in Europe or elsewhere in the world. Sixth, in fulfilment of this policy, Britain should, as a start, double the strength of her Rhine Army. Seventh, the additional forces needed should be obtained without resort to National Service. The policy is clear, and speaks for itself.
  I should like to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) for the generous references he made to the progress of recruiting. In an interesting speech he stressed the importance of the psychological struggle, and if I had more time I should like to go into that matter.
  I should like now to turn to one of the main points made by the right hon. Member for Dundee, West. He referred to what he declared to be the Government's policy to resort to massive nuclear retaliation as the first and only response to any Soviet attack. Those were the words he used, and he went on to advocate a policy of graduated deterrents. The Government's position in this matter was made perfectly clear in the debate on the Defence White Paper a year ago, but since the right hon. Gentleman—I do not believe by mistake—deliberately—wishes to misrepresent us, I will restate the matter.
  Several hon. Members have urged that we should publicly define the circumstances which would justify the use of strategic nuclear weapons and those which would justify our using only tactical nuclear weapons. I do not believe that to be wise or practicable. In the first place, we cannot distinguish a strategic weapon from a tactical weapon by reference to its explosive power, as has been suggested. We can say that certain weapons are tactical weapons by reason of the short range of their delivery system, as, for

  1421
  example, the Corporal rocket, with a 70-miles range, and the nuclear shell, with a range still shorter; but when we come to aircraft bombs, it is impossible to say that one bomb is tactical and the other one is strategic.
  The question whether a weapon is tactical or strategic—as I have told the House several times—depends not so much on its explosive yield as on the target against which it is used. If the weapon is used against troop concentrations, communications immediately behind the front, airfields from which are operating aircraft flying over the battle area, it may be said that the weapon being used has a tactical rôle. If, on the other hand, the same weapon is being used to attack centres of industry or population in the heart of the opposing country, whatever the weapon is, it is being used in a strategic role. Between these two examples, which are fairly clear cut, there is a large area where it would be very difficult indeed to determine whether the operation was strategic or tactical.
  Even if it were possible to classify these weapons and to define the circumstances in which they would be used, I do not think that would in any way diminish the risk of war. If the West were attacked— and I stress that there is nothing new in this and that it has been said before—our aim would be to use as much force as was necessary to repel the aggression, no more and no less. That has been said before, and right hon. Gentlemen can look it up in HANSARD. If it were a small frontier incident, it might be dealt with by something not much more than a police action. If it were larger but still a localised aggression, it might be repelled by conventional forces, if necessary supported by tactical nuclear weapons. On the other hand, if it were an all-out offensive, it would no doubt be necessary to have an all-out counter-attack with strategic nuclear weapons.
  But it would be quite impossible in advance to determine the dividing line between those various circumstances and to publish a definition. Nor would it contribute to security and peace to tell any potential aggressor that he could safely attack us on a certain scale or up to a certain distance without fear of strategic weapons being used against him. I cannot think of a better way of encouraging small-scale probing operations
  1422
  which could so easily lead step by step to full scale nuclear war.
  My advice is that we should not put too much faith in the effectiveness of rules or definitions, but rather continue to concentrate our attention upon deterring aggression of any kind altogether.
  I want to refer to one weapon which has been much discussed, the Blue Streak. I was asked by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) and others why we went ahead with Blue Streak in preference to a submarine-launched missile of the Polaris type. The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) and other hon. Members also referred to the matter. Undoubtedly, an underwater firing platform has very great attractions. It is mobile and can be sited far away from any centres of population. The fact that it can be taken round the world to other theatres is also a potential advantage, but it should not be assumed that the removal of the deterrent from this island would in practice protect our population from attack. If ever we launched our rockets from anywhere, we should have to expect an indiscriminate counter-attack which would not make any nice distinction between military and other targets—by counter-attack I do not imply that we had started the operation; I mean a further reply.
  Mr. Paget: Surely if the deterrent is not here a preventive attack is made a good deal less likely. If we decide to start it, of course we shall be annihilated.
  Mr. Sandys: I was not suggesting that we would start it.
  In making our choice, the performance and capabilities of the rocket were the deciding factors. The Polaris rocket is propelled by solid fuel and, owing to restrictions of space in a submarine, its size must be kept down as much as possible. That, of course, limits its range and the weight and capacity of its warhead. Since a smaller warhead has a smaller explosive yield, more rockets are needed to pose an equivalent threat.
  The weight-carrying capacity is also of great importance. We and the Americans are working hard on the problem of antimissile missiles, and I have no doubt that other countries are doing the same. To counter this development the missile will have to be provided with the means of evading or foxing the anti-missile missile

  1423
  which is coming up to destroy it. These devices and decoys in the rocket may require quite a lot of space and may be fairly heavy. If, therefore, we wish our rocket to remain an effective deterrent for a reasonable time, it should possess a margin of additional power and payload to accommodate these future developments. The Blue Streak, with its powerful thrust and large capacity, will, we believe, provide this margin, and sited underground it will be very difficult to knock out.
  I want to say a word about arms cooperation, about which I have been asked by several hon. Members. I have been asked why there is no mention of this interdependence in the White Paper. There are, of course, several references to it in regard to our co-operation with the United States and with Australia, in regard to nuclear developments, rocket developments, nuclear submarines and the anti-tank weapon.
  I will be quite frank with the House. The reason why no progress is reported on our co-operation with Europe in joint arms development is that the progress has been very disappointing indeed and there is little to report. The disappointment is mine. I have made a very great personal effort, and all my colleagues have helped me in it, to try to promote greater and closer co-operation in arms development with the Continent of Europe. I am still hopeful that we shall achieve some results, but. to be quite frank with the House, the results up to date have been exceedingly disappointing.
  I come finally to the Amendment of the Official Opposition, to which I referred earlier, which says that our defence
  policy is not coherent. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington was good enough to help the House by looking up in the dictionary the exact meaning of the word coherent. He said it means "sticking together". The hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) got up a moment ago, interrupted his right hon. Friend, and said there were large numbers of Labour Members of Parliament who disagreed with the Labour Party's policy and who would have liked to express their disagreement in the course of the debate. All I can say is that if coherent means sticking together, then, on defence, the Labour Party certainly cannot claim to be very coherent.
  Uncertainty about the country's defence policy and the rôle of the Services, or the feeling that the Forces are not being properly equipped has, as everybody knows, a profound effect upon Service morale, which is rapidly reflected in the rates of recruitment and re-engagement. Whatever hon. Gentlemen opposite may say for party political reasons, all I can say is that the recruits are rolling in and that men already serving are extending their engagements. I believe that this is the best possible evidence that they, at any rate, take a different view. The public and the Services know very well that the new Regular forces we are creating will be better organised, better equipped, better trained, better paid, and better housed than they have ever been before.
  Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question: —
  The House divided: Ayes 297.Noes 230.

  Division No. 52.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Bryan, P.

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron walden)

  Arbuthnot, John

  Bingham, R. M.

  Campbell, Sir David

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Carr, Robert

  Ashton, H.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Baldock, Lt-Cmdr. J. M.

  Body, R. F.

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Baldwin, Sir Archer

  Bossom, Sir Alfred

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Balniel, Lord

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Barlow, Sir John

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Cooke, Robert

  Barter, John

  Braine, B. R.

  Cooper, A. E.

  Batsford, Brian

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt-Col. W. H.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Beamish, Col. Tufton

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Corfield, F. V.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Crosthwaite Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Hurd, Sir Anthony

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark(E'b'gh, S.)

  Pitman, I. J.

  Crowder, Petre (Rulslip—Northwood)

  Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Cunningham, Knox

  Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

  Pott, H. P.

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Dance, J. C. G.

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Profumo, J. D.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  de Ferranti, Basil

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Redmayne, M.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Joseph, Sir Keith

  Rees-Davies, W. Ft.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Kaberry, D.

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Kershaw, J. A.

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Kimball, M.

  Rippon, A. G. F.

  du Cann, E. D. L.

  Kirk, P. M.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Lagden, G. W.

  Robertson, Sir David

  Duncan, Sir James

  Lambton, Viscount

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Duthie, W. S.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Leather, E. H, C.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Elliott, R. W.(Ne'castle uponTyne.N.)

  Leavey, J. A.

  Russell, R. S.

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Leburn, W. G.

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Sharples, R. C.

  Fell, A.

  Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

  Shepherd, William

  Finlay, Graeme

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Forrest, G.

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Fort, R.

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Speir, R. M.

  Freeth, Denzil

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

  Gammans, Lady

  McAdden, S. J.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Gibson-Watt, D.

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Glover, D.

  McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Glyn, Col. Richard H.

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Storey, S.

  Godber, J. B.

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Goodhart, Philip

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Gower, H. R.

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Maddan, Martin

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside)

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F.W. (Horncastle)

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

  Teeling, W.

  Green, A.

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Temple, John M.

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Gurden, Harold

  Marshall, Douglas

  Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Mathew, R.

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

  Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  Maudling. Rt. Hon. R.

  Mawby, R. L.

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vera (Macclesf'd)

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Hay, John

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Head, Rt- Hon. A. H.

  Nabarro, G. D. N,

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Nairn, D. L. S,

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Neave, Airey

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Hesketh, R. F.

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

  Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

  Wall, Patrick

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

  Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Noble, Michael (Argyll)

  Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Webbe, Sir H.

  Hobson, John(Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  O'Neill, Hn. Phelim(Co. Antrim, N.)

  Webster, David

  Hope, Lord John

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

  Whitelaw, W. S. I.

  Hornby, R. P.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Hornsby-Smith. Miss M. P.

  Orr-Ewing, C. Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Osborne, C.

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Page, R. G.

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Woollam, John Victor

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Partridge, E.

  Howard, John (Test)

  Peel, W. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Mr. Heath and Mr. Legh.

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  1426

  1427

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Hayman, F, H.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Healey, Denis

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Albu, A. H.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Parker, J.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

  Paton, John

  Baird, J.

  Holman, P.

  Peart, T. F.

  Balfour, A.

  Holmes, Horace

  Pentland, N.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Holt, A. F.

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Houghton, Douglas

  Prentice, R. E.

  Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol. S.E.)

  Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Benson, Sir George

  Howell, Denis (All Saints)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Beswick, Frank

  Hoy, J. H.

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Blackburn, F.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Rankin, John

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Redhead, E. C.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Hunter, A. E.

  Reid, William

  Boardman, H.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Bonham Carter, Mark

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Rhodes, H.

  Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Bowles, F. G.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Boyd, T. C.

  Janner, B.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Brockway, A. F.

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Ross, William

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(Holbn & St.pncs.S)

  Royle, C.

  Brown. Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech(Wakefield)

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Kenyon, C.

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

  Champion, A. J.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

  Chapman, W. D.

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Chetwynd, C. R.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Snow, J. W.

  Cliffe, Michael

  Ledger, R, J.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Coldrick, W.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Sparks, J. A.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Steele, T.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Logan, D. G.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  MaAlister, Mrs. Mary

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  Deer, G.

  MacColl, J. E.

  Stross, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

  Delargy, H.J.

  MacDermot, Niall

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Diamond, John

  McInnes, J.

  Swingler, S. T.

  Dodds, N. N.

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Sylvester, G. 0.

  Donnelly, D. L.

  McLeavy, Frank

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Ede. Rt. Hon. J. C.

  MacMillan, M. K.(Western Isles)

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Edelman, M.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Mahon, Simon

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

  Thornton, E.

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Timmons, J.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Tomney, F.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Mason, Roy

  Usborne, H. C.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Viant, S. P.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Finch, H. J. (Bedwellty)

  Messer, Sir F.

  Watkins, T. E.

  Fitch. A. E. (Wigan)

  Fletcher, Eric

  Mikardo, Ian

  Weitzman, D-

  Foot, D. M.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Monslow, W.

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Galtskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Moody, A. S.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd(Car'then)

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Gibson, C. W.

  Mort, D. L.

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Moss, R.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Moyle, A.

  Willey, Frederick

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Grey, C. F.

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Grimond, J.

  O'Brien, Sir Thomas

  Winterbottom, Richard

  Hale, Leslie

  Oliver, G. H.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Oram, A. E.

  Woof, R. E.

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Oswald, T.

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Hannan, W.

  Owen, W. J.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

  Paget, R. T.

  Hastings, S.

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Mr Popplewell and Mr. Pearson.

  Main Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That this House approves the report on the Progress of the Five-Year Defence Plan contained in Command Paper No. 662.

SLAUGHTER OF ANIMALS (REGULATIONS)
10.12 p.m.
Mr. Charles Royle: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Slaughter of Animals (Prevention of Cruelty) Regulations, 1958 (S.I.. 1958, No. 2166), dated 17th December, 1958. a copy of which was laid before this House on 23rd December, be annulled.
Mr. Speaker: I would draw the attention of the House to two other Motions on the Order Paper, one in the name of the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison):
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Slaughterhouses (Hygiene) Regulations, 1958 (S.I., 1958, No. 2168), dated 17th December, 1958, a copy of which was laid before this House on 23rd December, be annulled.
and the other, at the end of the Orders of the Day, in the name of the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey):
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Meat (Staining and Sterilization) Regulations, 1959 (S.I., 1959, No. 20), dated 6th January, 1959, a copy of which was laid before this House on 20th January, be annulled.
If the House agrees, I think it would be advisable to discuss all three Motions together in a general debate.
Mr. Royle: I am glad, Mr. Speaker, that you have suggested that the House might consider the three Motions together. I wish to concentrate on the first, and my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent. Central (Dr. Stross), if he succeeds in catching your eye, will speak about the second.
During the Second Reading debate on the Slaughterhouses Bill we decided that it was not wise to divide the House on that occasion but that we should endeavour to make the Bill more reasonable and sensible during the Committee stage discussions. For a week or two we met on several mornings each week to try to do something to make the Bill a better Measure.
Our concern is about the necessity to bring in Regulations to achieve what we term moderate concentration. Hon.
1430
Members on this side of the House have made clear that we believe in a policy of moderate concentration. The Government have indicated that they also believe in that policy, but we differ about how it shall be achieved. Our past discussions have centred round this point.
We believe that the way to attain moderate concentration was for the Government to lay down how many slaughterhouses there should be, and the type. We are concerned that the Government's attitude has not been to do the thing sensibly and honestly but to try to achieve moderate concentration by backdoor methods. We wanted to fix the requisite number of slaughterhouses and, in so doing, to decide how many public slaughterhouses there should be and to what extent there should be permitted to be private ones, particularly in the rural areas where there is difficulty in establishing the larger public slaughterhouses. We felt that adequate space should be provided in these slaughterhouses so that private traders could carry on their work.
Had we adopted that plan, it would have been quite honest. Municipalities would have known where they stood and what provision to make. Meat traders who desired to kill their own animals would have known to what extent they could go. Conversely to our argument, the Government decided that they could achieve moderate concentration of slaughterhouses by the introduction of Regulations. Those Regulations are before us tonight and we are praying against them.
We are dealing with a very complicated Act of Parliament, a lawyer's paradise and, so far as the trade is concerned, a nightmare. The problem of the Regulations is terrible for the butcher. How does he carry them out? What does he use for money in order to carry them out? The Regulations may be very good in some respects and quite desirable but, having passed the Regulations and given full liberty to the trade to work them, the Government should recognise that the trade still has to pay for the slaughterhouses with all these Regulations attached to them.
In passing, I suggest that if this had been an agricultural Measure we should have seen Government money available

1431
in very large amount to subsidise the agriculturists on any development that they decided to make. The Government are saying to the trader, "We will build slaughterhouses on certain conditions, with the local authority and the Minister, but we are trying to stop you by making it too expensive for you. "My hon. Friend the Member for Caernarvon (Mr. G. Roberts) told me the other day of an instance in his constituency. The local authority decided to pull down a very old slaughterhouse and erect a new one. There will be a period when there will be no slaughterhouse in the area. Nine local traders are at the moment using the slaughterhouse, but when the new one is built it will not be available to the nine local butchers but only to the Fatstock Marketing Corporation which is evidently putting money into it.
This is what comes out of the Act. The Regulations are not putting matters like that right. They could have been put right during the passage of the Bill.
In the few minutes at my disposal, I want to deal particularly with the first of the Statutory Instruments we are discussing, No. 2166. I wish to direct the attention of the House to Regulation 3 in Part II. If in future we are to have the right type of building for the production of meat fit for human consumption, these things may be necessary. I think they are, but to do it all properly will cost a lot of money Regulation 3 says:
"The occupier of a lairage shall cause the following requirements to be complied with: —

(a) The lairage shall be suitable for its purpose and adequate in size and construction for the number of animals laired therein.

(b) The lairage shall be so constructed as to provide shelter from the sun and adverse weather for every animal laired therein.

(c) The lairage shall be so constructed, and the floor thereof so channelled, as to enable it to be thoroughly cleansed.

(d) The lairage shall be provided with adequate racks, mangers or other suitable equipment to contain food, and with adequate drinking troughs, for all animals laired therein; such racks, mangers, equipment and troughs to be fixed if reasonably practicable."

What is "suitable"? Perhaps the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, when he replies to the debate, will define for us exactly what the Ministry means by" suitable". Will he also tell us what" adequate"
1432
means? What is meant by" thoroughly cleansed"? What is" reasonably practicable"? In the end, who decides all these questions of what is adequate, suitable and reasonable?
Regulation 5 says:
"This regulation shall apply as respects any existing slaughterhouse from such date as the Minister may by order under these regulations appoint, but otherwise shall apply forthwith."
In other words, the old slaughterhouses, the undesirable ones, are to continue until such time as the Minister makes up his mind that something must be done about them. There are no stunning pens in them at the moment. When he considers the hundreds of old-type slaughterhouses and wonders when it is to be suitable and when it is to be practicable to put the new ones into operation according to these Regulations, the Minister will have a really big headache.
Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will be good enough to give an indication tonight as to when the Minister intends to get on with the job of dealing with the old slaughterhouses. The new places must be absolutely super places. We on this side of the House want to see these perfect places as far as is "reasonably practical "and" reasonably possible. "I also draw attention to Part III, Regulation 10, which says:
"The occupier of a lairage shall ensure that within the lairage—

(a) horned cattle and fractious animals are kept apart from other animals; and

(b) if two or more horned cattle or fractious animals are kept together they are restrained so that they cannot injure one another.

For the purposes of this regulation fractious' means likely to injure other animals."
How on earth does the small man do that? I think in terms of the butcher killing a couple of bullocks a week. What sort of premises and what sort of land does that man possess to be able to put into operation that kind of stipulation? I repeat—and shall return to it later— that this is not the honest way of doing it. It should have been made clear to the trade from the very beginning that the time had come when there should be moderation in the number of slaughterhouses in this country. Everybody concerned in the trade should have known the position without these fractious Regulations which will cost such an awful lot of money.

1433
I will refer briefly to Regulation 13, which speaks about conditions on the slaughterhouse floor, where it is likely that an animal might slip or fall. I know something about slaughterhouses. After one animal has been disposed of and the carcase hung up, the slaughterhouse is washed down before the next animal is brought in, or it should be. Are we now to go further than that and bring in an electric fan to dry the floor after the water has been swilling down the slaughterhouse, so that there is no risk of an animal slipping as it is brought in?
One must remember that, even according to these Regulations, for a long time there will be hundreds of slaughterhouses in this country that have not got a casting pen. There is a grave danger of slipping. I suggest that some impossible conditions are being imposed on the trade through these Regulations. Whilst we on this side of the House want to see everything carried out as perfectly as it possibly can be, the way to have done it was not by bringing in all these Regulations, but by having as few slaughterhouses as the country could possibly manage with. Some good things may be contained within these Regulations. Some of them are practicable. Very many of them are exaggerated and impracticable.
I return to my first point and then I finish. These Regulations—I say this deliberately—are part of a most dishonest piece of legislation. By making these provisions through Regulations in the way in which it has been done, it is not legislation by regulation. It is dishonesty by regulation.
Dr. Barnett Stross: Mr. Deputy-Speaker, may I ask you whether, as we have agreed that all three Prayers shall be taken together, I need to move one formally? Only the first Motion has been formally moved.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Gordon Touche): If the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) will second the first Motion, that will be sufficient.
10.29 p.m.
Dr. Stross: I beg to second the Motion.
I propose to confine my remarks to the Slaughterhouses (Hygiene) Regulations, 1958. These Regulations fall into five parts. I do not propose to discuss Part I, which deals with interpretation.
1434
Parts II, III and IV are very important. Part II deals with construction of slaughterhouses. Part III deals with equipment, Part IV deals with hygienic practices, with which I am particularly interested. Part V deals with offences, and I shall not touch on that part at all.
It will be seen from the Explanatory Note that the Regulations are being made in relation to new slaughterhouses. It is made quite clear, too, that Part II. dealing with construction, and Part III, dealing with equipment, and that section of Part IV which deals with diseased animals and diseased meat, will not affect existing slaughterhouses till the dates appointed by the Minister.
Therefore, the first question I must put to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture is this. Will he accept that, as we stand today, at this date, the Regulations do not specifically have any value for us, since no dates have yet been appointed by the Minister for existing slaughterhouses? We do not know when these dates will ensue. Of course, we appreciate that the Ministry is waiting for information and that, according to what we were told when we discussed the legislation in Committee, must be dependent upon the speed with which the local authorities can send it in. However, I think we have a right to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he can give any information about how long it will be after the information has been received before all the existing slaughterhouses are brought inside the ambit of these Regulations. We must know that, for till that is done, the Regulations are not of much value. for they will not come into effect.
I must say in passing that we are delighted to see that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health is sitting on the Government Front Bench. We were denied the pleasure and the advantage of his presence throughout the whole of the most interesting Committee proceedings on the Measure under which these Regulations are made. I know he will not complain that we complained bitterly at his absence. We knew it was not his fault, for he was not a member of the Standing Committee which considered the Measure, but we felt that, as in all those most interesting sittings we discussed public health, we were denied most valuable advice. Upon a Bill which was

1435
almost entirely by reference to previous legislation we did not even have the advantage of the presence of a Law Officer of the Crown. Still, now some remedy is available, and now when we are going to discuss hygiene we have the ear of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health.
We shall be entirely dependent upon the dates at which these Regulations will come into force—though not for new slaughterhouses which, perhaps, have not yet been built. We beg the Parliamentary Secretary to give us full information when he replies to the debate. How many have been built since Second Reading of the Bill or since we discussed the matter in Committee? Has anybody had the temerity to risk capital in that way? Are any being built? Can he make any guess? Can he give any information whatsoever on this? We shall be most interested to have any information on this matter.
My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Royle) was right when he said that this is an attempt to achieve some form of moderate concentration, albeit through the back door. For this I do not blame the Minister and Parliamentary Secretary. One would have to be insane not to accept that moderate concentration is the only reasonable thing to aim at in this country in this matter. We argued it very fully in Committee on the Bill, and if this is the only possible way which they can find for it, we have to say that it is probably better than nothing. It would, however, have been more honest and of greater advantage to the public, to the local authorities and, I think, strangely enough, to the meat traders and the occupiers of slaughterhouses had it been done openly and not by this method.
We on this side of the House believe that only through moderate concentration can we have good hygiene practice. If we cannot scrutinise what is happening, if we have a multiciplicity of small slaughterhouses scattered everywhere, if we cannot completely control both ante-mortem and post-mortem inspection, then there is not good hygiene practice.
We also feel that the attitude which was adopted by some hon. Members opposite in support of the Parliamentary Secretary is difficult to understand. I
1436
am delighted to see the hon. Member for Leominster (Sir A. Baldwin) in his place. He laughed at me when, in Committee, I suggested that we ought to have ante-mortem inspection. He thought it was absurd to believe that anyone could possibly tell, before it was killed, that a cow was ill. This view on the science of veterinary practice was astonishing to me, as I am sure it was astonishing to most of us. I sincerely hope that it is now astonishing to the hon. Member for Leominster.
Without ante-mortem inspection, what is the value of Regulation 19, which reads:
"No person shall bring or permit to be brought into a slaughterhouse any animal which he knows or suspects to be diseased unless he takes such animal or causes it to be taken to that part of the lairage provided for the segregation of such animals."
How are we to expect the diligent slaughterman, as we called him during the Committee debates, to know whether the animal is diseased unless a veterinary surgeon has told him? If, as the hon. Member for Leominster said, it is impossible to diagnose disease in animals, how can a slaughterman know? Why put into a regulation something which obviously would not be worth the paper on which it is written in the way in which it is written? Will the Parliamentary Secretary give us his opinion on that point?
The Government have refused to allow for what we call flexible planning. My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), who is to wind up the debate, knows what I mean by that because I have taken the term from him as he used it in Committee. Do not the Government think that, because they show themselves remarkably allergic towards this term and will not allow flexible planning, they have been grossly unfair to the trade? If I were a butcher, I should not buy any cattle in the market without a veterinary surgeon standing beside me or unless I had a regulation to protect me to the effect that all animals being sold for the purpose of slaughter should carry veterinary certificates with them to show that they were fit to be slaughtered. Without this, if the cattle is found on inspection to be diseased, it is the buyer who loses a substantial amount of money. If there were a certificate from a veterinary surgeon there would be much more protection. If, after

1437
that, it were found that the veterinary surgeon had been mistaken and that the animal was diseased, an arrangement could be reached by which the vendor and the buyer could halve the loss between them.
Mr. Royle: What about the Ministry?
Dr. Stross: I am not prepared to bring the Ministry into the matter at this stage although I have no doubt that it would be possible to bring in a third party in this way. I am only making suggestions. I will, however, leave that point. For some reason, Sir Gordon, you seemed to be restive and I may have been slightly out of order. If I was out of order, it was not my fault. I was being tempted, and I now resist the temptation.
May I quote Regulation 19 (3)? Here I do not think we are dealing with diseased animals or diseased meat. It reads:
"Subject to the provisions of paragraph (2) of this regulation, no person shall bring or permit to be brought into a slaughterhouse any undressed carcase unless it is accompanied by a certificate of a veterinary surgeon stating—'".
The Regulation then gives paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), namely, the reasons for slaughter, whether to the best of his knowledge it was suffering from any disease which would render it unfit for human consumption and, thirdly, the particulars of any drugs which might have been given to it.
Surely, this will apply to all slaughterhouses now? I am delighted to see that the Parliamentary Secretary agrees, because that helps me somewhat, but will he now look at the proviso? That means that the undressed carcases of sheep or lambs will not be so treated. In their case, no veterinary certificate is needed from a skilled or qualified veterinary surgeon. All that is asked is a certificate from the owner, or the person in charge of the animal. He has to state the reason for the slaughter; that the animal has not recently been treated by a veterinary surgeon, and he has to give particulars of any drugs recently administered.
What an extraordinary proviso. We are to be protected from eating large diseased animals, but in regard to the smaller ones, the sheep or the lambs, we must rely on the skilled knowledge of the owner, or whomsoever is in charge.
1438
That is absolutely absurd. It tends to offer an incentive to people—who have a financial interest in getting rid of these beasts at a price that means no loss to themselves—to become dishonest. That is unfair, and I do not think that it will protect the public health.
I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health will give us his views on this. He cannot expect that the people mentioned in the proviso will be able to give us reliable information. With the best will in the world, they cannot. An animal may have been ill and about to die when it was slaughtered, dressed and brought in. It may never had had any medicine or care, and no veterinary surgeon may have been called in. If an untruth is told, what protection has the public? It has none at all.
The Parliamentary Secretary should take up the cudgels on our behalf. He should say that this is not good enough, and that his Ministry does not think it fair. It is all very well to protect certain interests, whether they be farmers, owners of animals, vendors or buyers, but the Ministry of Health has to protect all human beings in the country. We look to the Minister of Health, and to the Parliamentary Secretary to do their duty by us.
We think that these Regulations are disappointing, and we must firmly express our disappointment. We are very sorry that something better has not come from all the work that we did together.
10.44 p.m.
Mr. A. Blenkinsop: I want more particularly to refer to the Regulations relating to meat staining and sterilisation. I am glad to see such a re-awakening of interest in this subject of slaughterhouses and knackers' yards. There are here tonight faces that we did not see in our earlier discussions. I hope hon. Members will all be as eager as I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health is, to ensure that the highest standards are observed for the protection of the human being. That, I hope, is the major common interest of us all, even though it may involve a certain amount of extra expense for those who are buying for pets meat which is unfit for human consumption.

1439
I am concerned that the Meat (Staining and Sterilization) Regulations, which are contained in Statutory Instrument No. 20, of 1959, should have been laid in a form which still leave a considerable loophole for those who may sell unfit meat which may contaminate meat which is being used for human consumption in the home. This is an anxiety shared by the public health inspectors throughout the country and by their official organisation. I believe that the public health inspectors have made representations to the Ministry calling attention to what they regard as an unfortunate mistake or an unfortunate decision on the part of the Ministry.
The broad object of the Regulations, of course, we all welcome. They tighten up to some extent the provisions, among other things, about the sale of meat from knackers' yards which, in the past, has caused a great deal of anxiety. In the past, it has been possible for this meat, which may not in itself be diseased but which may very well come into contact with diseased meat, to be brought into the home and there contaminate other meat or food which is being prepared in the home. This has given rise to much anxiety among those concerned to suppress outbreaks of food poisoning.
We had hoped that the Ministry would, in introducing its Regulations, have been able to overcome this difficulty completely. Unhappily, it has not done so; it has largely, though not entirely, met the problem. The point is that these new Regulations differentiate between meat from knackers' yards, which is classed as unfit for human consumption, and that which is—to quote from the Ministry's own circular, though these words are not actually used in the Regulations themselves—
"technically fit for human consumption."
I am not quite sure how anybody could define what those words really mean. Presumably, though it is technically fit meat, it is not meat which anybody will ever consume. But the difficulty here is that, under these Regulations, apparently, such meat which is regarded as technically fit for human consumption— although open to great suspicion—could be sold stained but not sterilised, although other meat from knackers' yards will be both stained and sterilised.
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It is the strong view of the public health inspectors, who, after all, have a very grave responsibility in this matter, that all this meat should be both stained and sterilised. They think it wrong that there should be this gap in the defences of the public. We feel that the gap has been allowed in some way in order to meet pressure there may have been from some pet shops or other interested parties, because it may be feared that, otherwise, some of those who buy meat for their pets at home may have to pay a rather higher price.
Surely, if there is this anxiety which is voiced, as I say, by a very responsible body, we should try to meet it, and meet the case presented, when we go to all the trouble to introduce these new and, on the whole, very desirable Regulations. The danger, therefore, is that it is quite possible that as a result of this loophole which the Regulations provide, there will, in effect, still be contagion in the home. It is still possible to pass on the contact from the knacker's yard to the home and to food used in the individual house.
I very much hope that we shall have an assurance from the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. It would be even more delightful if the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health, to whom I making a special appeal, would agree that this is a serious matter and, even if he cannot meet it straight away, if he would agree that it should be considered again in view of the source from which it is raised, to assure us that there is no possible danger of the contamination that the public health inspectors say we must fear. We should not pass these Regulations in their present form tonight without greater assurance that the public is being properly protected.
10.52 p.m.
Mrs. Harriet Slater: I wish mainly to obtain clarification on the third set of Regulations, S.I., 1959, No. 20, dealing with meat staining and sterilisation. Before doing so, however, I reinforce the plea made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) that there should be veterinary supervision, even in the interests of butchers themselves, when animals are brought to be slaughtered.

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I say that because recently the butchers in Stoke-on-Trent have made application to the local authority that the local authority should pay them when meat is condemned. It seems foolish that they should buy unfit animals, without any protection at all, and then expect the local authority to pay them when they have made that mistake.
There are two points on which I should like clarification. Paragraph 2 (1) states:
"'meat' includes offal and fat, but does not include bones, blood, whalemeat or a whole dead animal".
Exactly what is meant by a "a whole dead animal"? Does it mean that of somebody can slip through a dead animal before it has been stripped of its hide, that is one of the back-door methods that might be used to try to slip some of this meat through?
The other point on which I should like a definite statement from the Minister concerns Regulations 7 and 8. Regulation 7 states:
"Where any meat has been stained in accordance with the requirements … no person shall cut away any part of such meat or otherwise treat it in any manner calculated to conceal the fact that it has been stained".
Regulation 8, however, states:
"No person shall sell or offer or expose for sale by retail any meat which is unfit for human consumption unless it has been sterilized".
This is what we ask the Minister to make quite clear. Is it at all possible that meat can at some stage be condemned as unfit for human consumption and then stained and that then a butcher or somebody else can have it and sterilise it so that the stain can be removed so that, somehow, the meat finds its way on to the shop counter where it may be sold for human consumption? The Parliamentary Secretary looks a little puzzled when I ask that question, but the Medical Officer of Health of Stoke-on-Trent has raised this question with the City Health Committee.
He did so because the General Secretary of the National Federation of Meat Traders has suggested that it will be possible for butchers to be able to buy meat which has been condemned as unfit for human consumption. The Meat Trade Journal has also suggested that that might be so, even within these Regulations. The Town Clerk of Stoke-on-Trent
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says that he sees nothing in the Regulations which would permit a butcher to resell meat which had been condemned as unfit, but the medical officer of health asks, in view of what has been said, that the Minister should make a statement about the position.
Is it possible for meat which has been condemned, has been stained, but has been sterilised so that the stain can be removed, to be sold, or, much worse, to be made up into pies, and sausages and similar things, in the way that unfit meat used to be passed on to the public in the old days? There is enough evidence to prove that that sort of thing still happens today. If it is possible, I ask the Minister to reconsider the Regulations and to tighten them and to make it clear that that sort of thing is not to be allowed.
It is not fair to local health authorities that that sort of thing should be permitted, for they have passed through many bitter struggles in the past to prevent unfit meat being sold to the public, and much has been done to cure the diseases caused by unfit meat. Medical science has advanced a long way and it is our duty to ensure that with these Regulations we prevent those diseases, thus making it unnecessary for large sums of money to be spent on their cure. It is not fair that housewives should be sold meat which they might have no means of telling to have been condemned.
I stress that Regulations 7 and 8 give rise to much uncertainty and make it appear that there is a back-door method open to unscrupulous people. Let there be no doubt about the fact that there are still unscrupulous people for whom a fine of £100, for which the Regulations provide, will not act as a deterrent if they think that they can get away with it.
10.59 p.m.
Mr. W. F. Deedes: I want to put only one short point which arises from Regulation 8 (i) of Statutory Instrument 20. I cannot see what process of reasoning made zoological gardens, menageries and mink farms exempt from these provisions. I think we are all aware that there are other categories, not only among animal lovers, but among those who earn their living from animals, who might be included in Regulation 8 (i). My hon. Friend will be

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aware that those who keep registered kennels and get a living from breeding dogs are very concerned at the increased costs which these Regulations may impose on their food bills. I appreciate the difficulties of indiscriminate exemptions, but it has been put to me—and I pass this on to my hon. Friend—that registered kennels could, without losing too much of the purpose of these Regulations, be added to
"zoological garden, menagerie or mink farm"
so that those who earn their living from dogs as well as from minks may receive some consideration from the Regulations.
11.1 p.m.
Mr. F. H. Hayman: I wish to reinforce the plea made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop) that the Parliamentary Secretary should pay attention to the request of the Association of Public Health Inspectors that all meat which is unfit should be properly stained. I believe we all feel that such a procedure should be followed, and we are glad that an improvement is to be effected fairly quickly.
During the long Committee stage of the Slaughterhouses Bill last year we learned from the Parliamentary Secretary that he hoped by these Regulations to be able to achieve some measure of concentration of slaughterhouses and thereby to improve the percentages of meat inspected before sale. I am particularly interested in this matter because in the town in which I live in my own constituency, a town of 35,000 people, it transpired quite recently that last year, of 143,000 animals slaughtered, no fewer than 21,000—that is 14 per cent.—were sold to the public uninspected. In two export slaughterhouses 24 per cent. went out uninspected.
Slaughterers and the public health committee of the council are very concerned about this state of affairs, and they hope that some improvement will be obtained. Although I may be out of order in saying this, they feel that the abolition of Sunday slaughtering is the only answer, and they hope that the Minister will soon do something to ensure that the public get clean and inspected meat.
11.4 p.m.
Mrs. E. M. Braddock: I should like to refer to one matter which has not been mentioned so far in the debate. I am particularly pleased to see these Regulations because I understand that owing to the discontinuance of the Emergency Regulations which were similar to these, there has been a period when slaughterhouses and knackers' yards have not been obliged to pin-point meat that is unfit for human consumption.
I asked a Question about this a little time ago and the Minister said that Regulations were forthcoming. I should like to know if he feels that these Regulations are drawn tightly enough. We in Liverpool have been observing the Emergency Regulations; their discontinuance has made no difference to us. There is one loophole in Liverpool. Some imported meat is unfit for human consumption. Is there any possibility of making arrangements to ensure that the country of origin should have such meat stained before it is accepted here?
The other question I wish to refer to is that of the whole dead animal, which is exempt from being stained or sterilised. A whole dead animal has to be cut up at some time, and I should like to know what guarantee there is that that animal will not eventually be used for human consumption. One of the difficulties about this matter is that some local authorities have not continued to carry out the provisions of the Emergency Powers Regulations, and that means that there is the possibility of meat which is unfit for human consumption finding its way into factories, to be turned into meat paste and sausages.
I hope that the Minister can give us some assurance that he will make certain that these Regulations are sufficiently strict to ensure that that sort of thing cannot happen, and that they will be enforced in any port where meat which is unfit for human consumption may have to be dealt with.
11.7 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. J. B. Godber): We have had a very useful debate on the three Prayers, and I shall seek to deal with as many as possible of the points which have been raised. The fact that we are debating

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three sets of Regulations, some of which are very complicated, makes it impossible for me to deal with them as fully as I would like, and the House will understand my difficulty.
I will start by dealing with some of the points raised by the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Royle). I was a little disappointed about his approach. We had tried very hard to please him and his right hon. and hon. Friends. They were doubtful whether we should bring the Regulations in in time. We gave them an assurance that we would do so within six months of the Act coming into force, and we have done so well within that time. We hurried things along to try to oblige hon. Members opposite, but not one word of thanks have we got from them. That is very depressing.
We have tried to take account of the various points raised by hon. Members opposite, and have brought forward Regulations which mark a considerable advance in the way in which hon. Members opposite wish us to go. The hon. Member for Salford, West made the point that we were producing a form of moderate concentration by dishonest means. There is nothing dishonest about it. I proclaimed to the hon. Member and his hon. Friends in Committee, time after time, that this was exactly what we were going to do, but his hon. Friends refused to believe it. The hon. Member himself was the only one who did believe it, and I hope that his hon. Friend will realise that these Regulations will have the effect of bringing about moderate concentration in some form.
The hon. Member referred to the Slaughter of Animals (Prevention of Cruelty) Regulations, No. 2166, and particularly to paragraph 3 thereof, which he seemed to feel, was lacking in precision, to put it mildly. I would point out that this is not a new provision. These Regulations are a re-enactment of the 1954 Regulations, with certain important additions. This paragraph 3 is an exact reiteration of one of the paragraphs in the 1954 Regulations.
Mr. Royle: I grumbled about that.
Mr. Godber: The hon. Gentleman grumbles about them again now, but they have proved reasonably effective and we have had no serious complaints about their effectiveness or the difficulty of in-
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terpretation. I think it was right to continue them in the form in which they were in the 1954 Regulations, which were brought in, incidentally, under an Act brought forward by the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Moyle), and supported on both sides of the House.
Regulation 5 is a new Regulation, and the hon. Member was right to call attention to it. It is an important one and will do much to help lessen the possibilities of cruelty in slaughterhouses. It imposes a considerable burden on the small slaughterhouse operator—he was right in saying that—but there is provision in the Regulations for an extension of time in regard to existing slaughterhouses. There is a strict limit to that extension, four years—the time stated in the original draft Regulations in the White Paper.
That is a maximum period, and it is entirely in the local authorities' hands as to how long they allow that period to continue within the maximum. While I hope that they will be reasonable in their approach in the case of many small slaughterhouses, I feel confident that as soon as they think right they will refuse to continue certification.
It is encouraging to know that since the passage of the Slaughterhouses Act, the manufacturers of these particular stunning pens have been particularly active in bringing forward new types of stunning pens, less elaborate than those proposed originally to suit the needs of the small slaughterhouse operator. When we were discussing that Bill, the only pens offered cost about £400, which is a lot of money for a small operator. But I am advised that there are now several satisfactory pens at about £140 to £150, and one being offered much lower than that even. So these practical points are being effectively dealt with, and the news there is very encouraging.
The hon. Gentleman referred to Regulation 10, dealing with the fractious animal. I can see his point. It is easy to poke fun at the word "fractious" when used in this connection, but we had to find a word to define what we meant and this was the best we could achieve. He spoke particularly of the small man, killing two beasts a week, but I could not really follow his thoughts on that example. My arithmetic tells me that

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he will presumably kill one straight away, and there is only one left. How the first can be fractious I do not know.
Mr. Royle: It has to live overnight.
Mr. Godber: But he has only two, and surely it is not a burden on a small man to tether them apart. I think that this Regulation will not be unduly burdensome to the operation of the small man.
As to Regulation 13, on which the hon. Gentleman poured a certain amount of ridicule, it has been in operation since the passing of the 1954 Act, and has been intelligently interpreted by the local authorities responsible for this. We have to pay tribute to them for the way in which they interpret these Regulations, and we have had no serious criticism. It was pointed out that in many cases these new Regulations will not apply until the date is announced. It is rather complicated. There was to be an appointed day, which, we assured hon. Members, would be brought in reasonably soon after the passing of the Act. The appointed day, we have announced, will be 2nd November next. After that period local authorities can send in their reports as soon as they will, but there is to be a period of at least two months for consideration. So one could say that the earliest possible date for receipt of the report is 2nd November and the earliest date of operation after that will be two months later. This is a complicated matter, but that will be the starting point.
I must turn to the points raised by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), who dealt with Order 2168, on food hygiene. He made the point that this was of little value because a number of the Regulations are not in operation for the same reason as the one I have been dealing with in answer to the hon. Member for Salford, West. I can only say that in the same way we hope a number of them will be coming into operation in twelve months' time and we hope things will move fairly rapidly then. I think that they are of value. Slaughterhouse operators will know what is expected of them and no doubt will be preparing for the Regulations coming into force. I believe that they will prove very valuable.
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The hon. Member referred specifically to Regulation 19 (1), which has not come into force, and spoke of the difficulty of enforcing such a regulation. There are many forms of disease which can be easily detected. At least it is better than the existing position in which there has been no regulation of this sort. Although we are not going so far as the hon. Member would wish, I hope he will agree that we are travelling on the same road, perhaps a little slower than he would wish.
The point about Regulation 19 (3) is the question about sheep and lambs being exempted. That is to take into account particularly lambing, a time when there is a large number of casualties with which it would be quite impossible to get vets. to deal. For the moment we must make this exemption. We shall see how we get on. but I have taken note of the hon. Member's point and will bear it in mind when considering future action.
Other hon. Members have related their remarks to Regulation 20, on meat staining. I do not propose to go into detail on the points that hon. Members have raised, because my right hon. Friend and the Minister of Health have received a number of representations about these Regulations since they were laid and a number of hon. Members have been concerned about them. This evening my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) has made a point which, I know, is in the minds of a number of my hon. Friends. Hon. Members opposite have taken a different view, but have also been rather critical about these Regulations.
My right hon. Friends have considered most carefully the complaints they have received and I have taken note of those made tonight. My right hon. Friends have come to the conclusion that it will not be possible to bring these Regulations into force from 1st April. While my right hon. Friends are still of opinion that regulations on this subject are necessary, they consider that more time is required to enable them to be put in a form such as will cause the least possible hardship to those concerned. They propose to allow more time for consideration by all the interested parties in the hope and expectation that revised regulations can be prepared which will have the good will and backing of everyone concerned.

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Because my right hon. Friends propose a little further time for these consultations they will take steps to revoke the existing Regulations. Before revoking them they will follow the procedures prescribed in the Food and Drugs Act, 1955, and consult all interested parties, including, of course, the Food Hygiene Advisory Council.
I thought it right to give the House that information tonight so that it would be aware of the position. Of course, when the revocation Order is laid it will be for hon. Members to take the matter further if they wish.
Mr. Royle: The hon. Gentleman is suggesting that only the last of the three should be withdrawn?
Mr. Godber: Oh, yes, only the one dealing with staining and sterilising. The others have the full support certainly of my hon. Friends on this side, and I hope and believe that, with a certain measure of criticism, hon. Members on the other side of the House still desire to make progress and that, with all their misgivings, they will still support us in those.
11.21 p.m.
Mr. Frederick Willey: We are obliged to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for the last statement he has made. I would urge upon him to consider this matter as one of great urgency because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock) has pointed out, we want an effective regulation as soon as possible. I do not myself object at all that the matter should be reconsidered in the light of the discussion we have had tonight, but I hope that the Department will regard this matter as one of great urgency.
To turn to the other two sets of Regulations, we can understand why the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health has been silent. To have intervened would only have embarrassed him. I do not want to be unduly harsh to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary. I will not declare him black, but really he is one of those grey persons. We have far too many of these grey persons about these days who avoid doing good.
It was agreed on both sides of the House that something really drastic had to be done about slaughterhouses. It is one of the little-known scandals in this
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country that our slaughterhouses are in an absolutely shocking condition, far worse probably that those of any other continental country. It was for this reason agreed by Ministers and leaders of both sides of the House that a really effective, radical approach had to be made. In their greyness the Joint Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister ran away.
We are in this difficulty. I would concede at once that these Regulations will improve matters. What we are disappointed about is that they will not improve matters sufficiently. However, it would be difficult for us to divide the House against the Regulations. I would myself concede not only that they will improve the present position, but that the Government have paid some attention to the discussions we had in Standing Committee on the Slaughterhouses Bill. There are one or two improvements incorporated in the Regulations which, I think, owe their origin to the discussions we had in the Standing Committee.
The failure of the Government, as demonstrated by these Regulations, is that they have abandoned the policy of moderate concentration. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary knows quite well that these Regulations will not provide for moderate concentration in any reasonable time.
Mr. Godber: I thought that the hon. Member's hon. Friend was making the point that they would.
Mr. Willey: My hon. Friend quite explicitly and clearly said in more forthright terms than I will use that this was a retreat from the policy of moderate concentration.
This is really worse than that. I would remind the hon. Gentleman of the first recommendation from each of the two relevant Reports. Let him turn to the Report of the Interdepartmental Committee on Meat Inspection and take its first recommendation. It is this:
"That all animals should be inspected ante mortem at the place of slaughter."
That is not provided in the Regulations. If we go no further than the first, minimum essential requirement given by the Interdepartmental Committee, it is that slaughterhouse buildings must not adjoin or form part of a building used as a dwelling-house. Even that is not in the Regulations. These are two simple,

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elementary requirements which are not in the Regulations. For this reason, we are bound to be disappointed with them.
They have the further disadvantage, which the Joint Parliamentary Secretary cannot conceal, that because of the present condition of slaughterhouses they are necessarily written in very vague terms. In the Slaughterhouses (Hygiene) Regulations we find in one paragraph alone that the words "suitable and sufficient "are used five times. What "suitable and sufficient "will mean is obviously conditioned by the premises as they are. Any public health inspector must interpret such a provision in the light of existing circumstances. This is the weakness of the Regulations.
As I have said, we have to recognise that if we prayed successfully against the Regulations conditions would be worse still. We want to improve them. We are sorely disappointed that we are not radically improving matters, but we hope that the public health inspectors will make the best they can of these inadequate Regulations. I believe that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will join me in hoping that they will do something to improve the conditions of our slaughterhouses, which are deplorable.
I hope that this will be a modest beginning to much more effective Regulations and that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will not rest here. It is comforting to recognise that there have been consultations on all these Regulations and that two have been referred to the Food Hygiene Council. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will ensure that the condition of slaughterhouses is kept fully alive before the Council, and that we can expect before long more effective and stringent regulations to be laid. Meanwhile, I advise my hon. Friends that the better course is to withdraw the Motion, and to hope that the public health inspectors will enforce the Regulations as vigorously and effectively as they can.
Mr. Royle: While I am not at all satisfied—indeed, am very disappointed—I should not like to ask the Vice-Chamberlain of the Household to go to the Palace tomorrow to increase Her Majesty's burden by asking Her to annul the Regulations. I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

CANFORD HEATH, POOLE
Motion made, and Question proposed,That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]
11.28 p.m.
Captain Richard Pilkington: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, for keeping you and the House, and indeed myself, here at this late hour. The subject I wish to raise is that of explosions on Canford Heath, a very fine heath in the northern part of the county and borough of Poole. On 20th and 21st June last year there were two explosions from ammunition which had come originally from this heath, and thereby five boys were injured. They were Hugh and John Brearley, Michael and Terence Banks and David King. The council, the police, the local newspaper, the Poole Herald, the Member of Parliament and the Royal Ordnance Corps all took action in their respective spheres to discover why these accidents had occurred and to see what they could do to prevent them from happening again.
The town clerk of Poole had already had correspondence with the War Department land agent at Weymouth, and, through him, with Southern Command headquarters and the War Office, about other incidents that had occurred in 1954 and 1956. On this occasion, he pointed out that though there had been sweepings of part of the heath in the past, they had obviously not been effective, and the heath was still not safe. The borough of Poole wants to make it safe, and I am sure that the War Office has the same wish. It has shown sympathy over what has occurred. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the interview that I had with him recently, but what we want is action, and effective action.
The heath comprises some 2,500 acres. Before it was derequisitioned from being a range and training area during the war it was searched visually. In 1956, because of the incidents that had then occurred, some 442 acres were searched mechanically—about one-fifth of the whole area. As a result of these recent accidents, Poole asked the War Office that the areas to the east and west of the area that had been mechanically searched in the past should also be

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searched mechanically. The area concerned is about 626 acres in extent.
In making this application, the local authority added that the remainder of the heath to the north—some 727 acres— might also be dangerous. However, they appreciated the difficulties of the War Office and, I think very reasonably, asked only that the more frequented area to the east and west of the area that had previously been swept mechanically should be dealt with similarly.
As my hon. Friend knows, I had considerable correspondence with his predecessor, and I saw the Secretary of State for War after the accidents. On 2nd July last, I put down a Question, and in his Answer the Minister said that:
"… about 150 acres in the vicinity will again be combed by troops."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd July, 1958; Vol. 590, c. 88.]
On 1st August, the Minister's predecessor wrote to me, after the search had taken place, and said that no live ammunition had been found but only burnt-out mortar smoke bombs, which were harmless. He added the noteworthy remark:
"The command say that vague reports reach them, even from the police, of ammunition being seen on the heath."
I would only add to that that the police are rarely vague about such things as this, and the Poole police are certainly not vague.
In his reply on 2nd July, the Minister said that about 150 acres would be searched again, but, according to a letter of 9th October received by the town clerk from the War Department land agent, it appears that only 132 acres were searched afresh by the Army—not the 626 acres mentioned by the Poole Council, and not even the 150 acres that I had been told would be searched. It is stretching the word "about "rather far to suggest that 132 acres is the proper figure when the figure mentioned was 150 acres.
After that, further correspondence and the interview to which I have referred took place, but we were unable to make further progress and it is for that reason that I have raised the matter this evening.
I hope that my hon. Friend has not come here tonight with a closed mind. I know that he is sympathetic about what has happened, and sympathetic to what
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the people in Poole want to have done— to have the heath made safe. We are dealing with possible danger to life and limb, especially to children, who like to play in this very fine heath. It is a very beautiful place, and Poole is fortunate to have such an area within its boundaries. We do not want to have to wait for further accidents before further action is taken. We already have the evidence that there is danger on the heath. We had it in 1954, in 1956, and now in 1958.
I know that the War Office feels that what is asked for is a big undertaking. It has told me that to search the whole 2,500 acres of the heath mechanically would take one section of a battle area clearance unit seven years. I think that one can reply to that that it would take seven sections, presumably, only one year. What the War Office has already done to about 442 acres we want done to the remaining 626 about which we have asked.
We appreciate some of the difficulties of the War Office—shortage of men, other areas which have to be considered, and so on—but we have taken those matters into account in the request we have made. We have not asked for the whole of the heath to be mechanically scoured. We are not asking for the 727 acres to the north to be dealt with; we ask only that the 626 acres to the east and west, the most dangerous areas, should be cleared. We are not satisfied even with the 150 acres which the Minister mentioned in his answer, and still less are we satisfied with the 132 acres which were visually combed after the protest was originally made. The borough has gone a long way to meet the War Office in this matter, and I ask the Minister now to come some way to meet us.
I have had a letter from the father of one of the boys in which he tells me that now, about eight months after the accident, the two fingers and thumb of the boy's hand are still useless. That boy had hoped to become a carpenter. What is the position about compensation in a case like that? I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to tell me.
It is to stop things like this happening again—perhaps much more serious next time—that I ask my hon. Friend to take really effective action now and not wait for any further incidents.
11.43 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. Hugh Fraser): I thank my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Poole (Capt. Pilkington) for raising this important issue this evening. Before coming to the special problems he raised, I want to deal with the matter from a national point of view, because it is only in that way that we can have the whole subject in proper perspective.
During the war, nearly 7 million acres of land in this country were used for field firing operations. Six and half million of those 7 million acres which could have been or were contaminated by unexploded bombs, shells and other dangerous missiles have been handed back to the public, and we are now in the process of clearing a large part of a further 100,000 acres of training land which we intend to hand back as soon as possible. I should like to explain the process to my hon. and gallant Friend.
Before land is handed back to the public, it has all been searched for un-exploded missiles. This search takes two forms—a visual search by troops moving in close formation, and a mechanical search in special target areas by means of mine detectors. Special target areas are those areas where we have reason to believe that a high concentration of ammunition has fallen in the past. Neither of these methods can be 100 per cent, successful: some small hazard must inevitably remain. Visual searches can be handicapped by the nature of the terrain, and mine detectors are effective only to a depth of about 18 inches.
It follows, therefore, that after an area has been handed back to the public it is possible that minor earth movements over the years or deep ploughing or shifts in vegetation may throw up dangerous objects. Accordingly, the War Office has to be prepared to carry out re-searches when evidence of dangerous objects is produced to the local police or to the local authorities.
My hon. and gallant Friend spoke of waiting for further accidents. The point is that what we have to wait for before we carry out a re-search in his area is not further accidents but further evidence of the existence of these dangerous missiles. Indeed, on an average, we have to carry out every year about 25 re-searches of land which has been handed back to the public.
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It is only fair to say that compared with the situation in North-Western Europe, where shells are still being unearthed from the 1914 war, our national hazard is a comparatively minor one.
It is important to get this hazard into proportion. First, there is the extreme rarity of discovery after land has been handed back. Secondly, unless these missiles are very roughly handled, they are most unlikely to explode. The War Office continues to draw attention to the general danger by warning notices and through the police. In addition, there have been frequent programmes on radio and television pointing out the danger of handling unidentified objects.
Such accidents as do occur are nearly always the result of people, especially young people, fooling about with unexploded missiles. Indeed, in the four or five cases on the files of the War Office which I have investigated, accidents have occurred through the abandonment of the most elementary prudence. I am not, of course, referring to cases which may be sub judice.
This does not mean that we at the War Office do not attempt to make all possible allowances for such events or that we do not hold ourselves responsible for compensation. As soon as the War Office is informed, usually by the police, of any discovery of what might be an unexploded missile in an area which has been handed back, a survey is made by the nearest ordnance inspecting officer. If the object discovered proves to be an unexploded missile, a full investigation is made. If, as a result it appears necessary, visual or mechanical: searches are instituted, as were instituted in my hon. and gallant Friend's constituency in 1956.
Concerning indemnity for those suffering injury or damage, we abide by the statement made in the House of Commons in April 1945
"If an accident should be caused by the presence of explosives used during training and not removed from the ground before its relinquishment by the War Department, an ex gratia payment of compensation will be made in respect of damage to property and personal injury provided that the victim has not contributed to the damage or injury by his own negligence"—[OFFICIAL REPORT. April, 1945; Vol. 410, c. 8.]
I have described broadly the functions which have to be performed by our

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Battle Area Clearance Unit and our Pioneer companies. Inevitable marginal risks appear over these wide areas of land, and action has to be taken when the evidence shows it to be necessary. The task, therefore, is a heavy one, and we cannot lightly engage on re-searches of areas unless there is definite evidence of dangerous unexploded missiles.
I will now turn to the specific question of the clearance of Canford Heath, which is in the constituency of my hon. and gallant Friend. This area, as he knows, was derequisitioned in 1950 after a visual search had been made of the whole 2,500 acres and a mechanical search of a smaller target area. In 1956, after a police report of the definite discovery of dangerous missiles, a further mechanical search of the centre part of the southern portion of the area was instituted. This covered some 442 acres.
In 1958, two accidents occurred, on 20th and 21st June. In one instance two boys threw an unexploded two-inch mortar bomb on to a bonfire, and on the following day three boys dug up an unidentified missile on the heath and threw stones at it until it exploded.
Following these unfortunate events, a further visual search of approximately 800 yards by 800 yards was instituted, and, to show how difficult the certainty of recovery is, I must point out that the accident which occasioned this further search occurred in an area which had been subjected to a mechanical search in 1956.
My hon. and gallant Friend asked for a further search to be carried out and, with the local council, pressed for a research of some 626 acres of the area. Frankly, we are unable to undertake such a further search in view of our other commitments, and, above all, in view of the fact that, although there have been several reports of suspicious objects on the heath, no evidence has been produced to justify further action. What have been turned up are parts of four now harmless
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exploded mortar bombs. As regards compensation for those injured, no claims have as yet been received.
My hon. and gallant Friend mentioned the housing project which will cover 40 or 50 acres of the heath. We will, of course, have an officer available from Southern Command to investigate immediately any objects which are turned up in the course of construction and preparation of the site.
While regretting that I am unable to meet the request my hon. and gallant Friend has made, I welcome the opportunity which has been given to the War Office to state our attitude over this very wide problem which affects so many areas. The Army will continue to do its utmost to help, but I must point out that eventual safety in these matters must depend on each one of us, and perhaps especially on parents and school teachers inculcating a proper sense of awareness and responsibility.
Captain Pilkington: My hon. Friend did not comment on the fact that the War Office said that it was proposed to search 150 acres whereas in fact only 132 acres were searched. The War Office has been less good than its word.
Mr. Fraser: The Secretary of State said on 2nd July, 1958, that
"as a precaution after the recent explosion about 150 acres in the vicinity will again be combed by troops."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd July, 1959; Vol. 590, c. 88.]
The actual area was about 800 yards by 800 yards, which works out to about 132 acres. My right hon. Friend used the expression "about 150 acres", but the detailed decision has to be made by the officer in charge on the spot. The area had already been searched by mechanical means some two years previously and it was quite properly decided that the search of 800 yards by 800 yards was adequate.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at eleven minutes to Twelve o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

JUDICIAL BUSINESS STANDING ORDERS
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, in rising to move the Motion in my name I can give your Lordships in three sentences the effect of these proposed Amendments. The object of the Amendments to Standing Order I is to reduce from six months to three months the period of time from the date of the order of the Court of Appeal during which appeals may be presented to your Lordships' House. The object of the Amendments to Standing Orders IV, VI and IX is to do away with the necessity for printing cases and documents to an appeal and to enable litigants to lithograph or duplicate their Cases and documents. The effect of these two changes, to which my learned friends and I have given careful attention, will be to bring appeals on more quickly and to reduce the cost to litigants. I beg to move.
Moved, That the following Amendments be made to the Standing Orders regulating Judicial Business:—
The following Standing Order shall be substituted for Standing Order I, namely—
("I. Ordered, that no petition of appeal be received by this House unless the same be lodged in the Parliament Office for presentation to the House within the period of three months from the date of the last order or interlocutor appealed from:
Provided that in the case of orders or interlocutors made or pronounced before the first day of April, 1959, the said period shall be six months.")
Standing Order IV, line 5, leave out ("printed")
Standing Order IV, line 6, leave out ("printed")
Standing Order VI (1), line 1, leave out ("printed")
Standing Order VI (1), line 5, leave out ("printed")
Standing Order VI (2), line 3, leave out ("printed")
Standing Order VI (3), line 1, leave out ("printed")
Standing Order IX, line 17, leave out ("printed")
Standing Order IX, line 24, leave out ("printed").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

SECONDARY EDUCATION
3.7 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN rose to draw attention to secondary education in England and Wales, with particular reference to selection at the age of 11-plus and the comprehensive system of education; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I believe that this is the first time for many years that we in your Lordships' House have had an opportunity of discussing secondary education. We should have had this debate last Wednesday but, unfortunately, it had to be postponed on account of the indisposition of the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham. I hope that he has now fully recovered and is feeling fighting fit. In considering secondary education we have to bear in mind that it is merely one link in the chain of formal education, which begins normally at the age of five and may go on until the age of twenty-one or twenty-two, in the case of those who go to places of higher education or undertake a course of apprenticeship. It is an important link in the chain, but I would not say that it is necessarily the most important. In my view, probably the most important part of education is primary education, when a child's character and attainments are actually formed.
To-day, however, we are not discussing primary education, although at some time I should like to do so. I feel that perhaps we have not been very fortunate in our primary education, judging by some of the results that we are achieving at the present day. I do not say necessarily that there is no improvement, for of course there is considerable improvement as compared with years gone by; but I feel that the question of primary education is one which would be deserving of the close consideration of your Lordships at some future time, and I hope that it may be possible to have that examination.
To-day we are discussing secondary education and I have deliberately confined my Motion to the restricted terms

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in which it is down on the Paper: virtually, to the two aspects of secondary education—the question of selection at the age of 11 and comprehensive schools. I feel that there is so much misunderstanding about the functions, purposes and character of our comprehensive schools and the point of the 11-plus examination that it is worth restricting the debate to that particular aspect of education; and I hope that it may be possible to confine discussion to that aspect. It is not for me, of course, to dictate to your Lordships how you should conduct this debate, but I regard this aspect as so important that in my view it would be rendering a disservice to the House if we detracted from this particular aspect and went on to others.
The question of universal compulsory education up to the age of 15 is a relatively new one. It results from the passing of the Education Act, 1944. That Act, passed by the Coalition Government during the war, was a great act of faith. It was a revolutionary measure—I believe one of the best educational milestones in the history of this country. It was quite revolutionary to adopt a system of compulsory education up to the age of 15 and to set up the different types of secondary education, as was done. Before the 1944 Act was passed a number of Committees had been appointed at different times, some of them having sat before the war, for the purpose of considering the best form that secondary education should take.
Those who were interested in these matters will remember the Hadow Committee, the Spens Committee and, primarily, the Norwood Committee, which all applied themselves to the question of how secondary education should be conducted. Probably the most important Report was the Norwood Report and that virtually recommended the system which was ultimately adopted. The system was that the children, like Gaul, should be divided into three parts. The very bright would go to a grammar school, the less bright would go to a modern school, and the others, who were neither bright nor very bright but handy, would go to a technical school. The theory was that they would all neatly fit into the various categories, they were selected at the age of 11, and there it was—that decided things for all time. This Report was accepted by the Minister and, accordingly,
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the local education authorities were encouraged to provide the three different types of schools. Probably the education authorities have been a little slow in providing the technical schools, but every local authority has provided, either by adapting existing buildings or by building new ones, the modern school and a type of grammar school.
I want to say a word about the method of selection. Children have to undergo an examination between the ages of 10 and 11. It is called the "11-plus" because, I understand, they enter the secondary school after attaining the age of 11, but actually the examination takes place between the ages of 10 and 11. The nature of the examination is not uniform, but, broadly speaking, it is based on an intelligence test, on written papers in English and arithmetic, on a report of the teachers, on the school record generally and on formal or informal interviews. If we are to make a selection at the age of 11 or at the age of 10-ptus, I would say that, broadly speaking, I can think of no better method of selecting children than the method which is at present adopted.
I admit that it probably has the effect—but it is not universal—of picking out the exceptional child on the one hand and of weeding out the exceptional child at the other extreme. But in the very big range between the exceptional child on each side I would myself say that it has not been very effective. This system has now been in operation for about fourteen years, and there is a growing dissatisfaction among parents, children, teachers and educationalists generally with a policy of selection at this early age. I want to try to give to the House some of the reasons why this dissatisfaction has arisen.
First as to the effects on the child, there is no doubt at all that the examination itself and, even more, the prospect of the examination do impose a great strain on the child, which, in the opinion of many people who are in a position to know, has resulted in nervous troubles, even in speech defects, in insomnia and various other difficulties of that kind, both before and after the examination. Incidentally, in a good many cases there have been similar effects on the parents as well, because if the child suffers from anxiety in connection with the 11-plus examination

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many parents suffer even more greatly. The effect of failure is a serious one and it is frequently impressed upon children, in many cases in the schools themselves but certainly by their parents, and if a child fails in the 11-plus this child tends to get an inferiority complex. It is his first experience of failure. This is particularly so where there are several members of one family and some of the children have passed the 11-plus examination and are going to a grammar school and others fail.
Educationally it is in my view a very unsatisfactory means of selection. First, there is the finality at the age of 11, the fact that children's fate is decided as a result of this examination. It is true that, at the age of 13, there are opportunities to take another examination, and that where a child has failed to get to a grammar school at the age of 11 that child may, at the age of 13, be transferred to a grammar school. But in practice it does not work out in that way, Only 2 per cent. of all children are transferred from secondary modern schools to grammar schools at the age of 13; and by the time children have reached the age of 13 and have become settled in a secondary modern school, they are actively discouraged from making the change.
I should like to tell the House of an experience of my own—that of a girl I was interested in, who undoubtedly had the ability to go to a grammar school. She failed in her 11-plus, and she went to a secondary modern school. She was told that if she did well she would be transferred. For the first year she consistently came top of her class. She was not transferred at 12. In the following year, also, she came top of her class for three terms; and she was also very good at games—in fact, very good all round. At the age of 13, when normally she would have been transferred to a grammar school she we not transferred. The headmaster took the view that she was doing very well where she was, and that there was no particular point in transferring her. I took up the matter, and eventually she was transferred to a grammar school, where she is now doing extremely well: she is a credit to the school, and the school is proud of her. That is the sort of thing that happens. I should not like to say publicly why this girl was not transferred. If I had to guess, I
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would say that it was because it was thought she would not fit in, by reason of her social origin, with the girls with whom she would have to mix at the grammar school. That has turned out to be quite untrue. She is mixing extremely well, and she is a great favourite at the school. I instance this case to show the great difficulty that exists in getting children transferred.
Going on to the educational disadvantages of selection at the age of 11, there is the actual difficulty of making the selection. Far too many children are of roughly the same ability. I have said that there are children at each extreme, but when you take the children in between there is so little between them that there must be an enormous difficulty in making this selection. In the days before the 11-plus examination there used to be a scholarship examination, which I imagine some of my noble friends must have gone in for. I did myself. One mark made all the difference between getting a scholarship and not getting one, and there were so many within this range of one mark that it really was a toss of the coin whether you got the scholarship or whether you did not: and the situation is much the same to-day.
Then circumstances differ according to the locality in which the child lives. In some localities there is a high percentage of grammar school places, and there the number of children who are able to go to the grammar schools is large. In Wales, for instance, something like 30 to 40 per cent. of all places are grammar school places. In some English boroughs, on the other hand, there are only 10 per cent. of places. It is therefore quite fortuitous, depending on whether a child happens to be living in one area or another whether he or she gets the same opportunity. Further, there are unequal opportunities as between boys and girls. There are far more places at grammar schools for boys than for girls; and so, if you take a boy and a girl of equal ability, the boy has a far better chance of getting into a grammar school than the girl.
Still on the educational disadvantages of this 11-plus, I want to refer to the wastefulness of the system. It is a fact—and most people with experience will confirm this—that something like 30 per cent. (and some people say even 40 per cent.) of those who get grammar school places turn out to be unsuitable for

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grammar school education, and just drift away at the age of 15—the earliest possible opportunity. There is no practical method of transferring a grammar school scholar to a secondary modern school. I say "no practical method", and I shall be very interested, when the noble Viscount conies to speak, if he will tell me how many are so transferred each year. I shall be most surprised if any appreciable number are transferred from grammar schools to secondary modern schools. It would be regarded as equivalent to expulsion, and I imagine that many parents would regard it as a disgrace for their children to be transfered in that way from a grammar school to a secondary modern.
I have said that about 30 to 40 per cent. turn out to be unsuitable for a grammar school education, but curiously enough, about the same proportion—30 to 40 per cent.—of those who go to secondary modern schools would have been suitable for a grammar school education; and, as I have said, only a small percentage ever get the opportunity of being transferred. So I submit that this system is wasteful of talent and wasteful of school places, in that such a high proportion of the children, both in the grammar schools and in the secondary modern schools, turn out to be unsuitable for the education which is provided. These are the reasons which, in my view, make segregation at 11-plus both cruel and socially wrong, as well as educationally wasteful.
Your Lordships may ask: "Is it not inevitable that some selection of children should take place? Can it possibly be avoided?" I would agree that children are not of equal ability; that what is suitable for one child is not necessarily suitable for another, and that there has to be some form of selection at some time. But I contend that to divide children into three groups, more or less irrevocably, at the age of 11 on the basis of tests and examinations, is wrong and wasteful; some better way has got to be found, and has been found. Much thought has been given by many local education authorities to this problem—notably in London, the West Riding of Yorkshire, Staffordshire, and in other places—and there has been evolved what has become known as the "comprehensive school". That is an unfortunate term, perhaps—
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only slightly less unfortunate than the term "conurbation" which we were discussing yesterday. I should have preferred to call them "secondary colleges", or some name such as that. However, they are now known as comprehensive schools, and I suppose that it would be wrong at this stage to rechristen them.
Now, may I tell the House what are the common features of the comprehensive school? First, all children within a certain geographical area are admitted to the school without distinction and without examination; without distinction of ability, social standing, or attainments. In the larger schools they come in at the rate of, possibly, 300 or 400 each year, and they are put into different classes. The idea is that for the first two or three years (the period varies according to the school) they all get, up to the age of 13 or 14, the same general education in the same subjects. There are varying methods of distributing children. Some schools try to single out children according to ability. I think possibly that is a mistake. I believe that most schools would get a fair balance of children into each of the classes. If 300 children were admitted to a school in any one year—that is the intake—there would be something like ten classes, and I think that most schools would try to get a balanced child population in each of these ten classes. And they would do that even though they would be aware, through reports from the schools, which children were the brightest or would have been best suited to grammar school places if they had taken the examination; or even if they have taken the examination and been recommended for grammar school.
The general idea is that one should not segregate all the bright children, putting them in grammar schools, and then try to grade them down, so that each knows where he is placed in the hierarchy of the school. While these children do their normal subjects together for the first two or three years, generally there are sets in special subjects. The sets most favoured are mathematics, science, English and modern languages, and there the children are placed according to their ability in these particular subjects; so a child who is particularly good at maths. would go into a set corresponding to that child's ability, regardless of the particular class in which that child was. And the

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same applies to the other subjects comprising the sets. But in the general subjects the child would remain in that class.
LORD HAWKE: May I ask what the general subjects are, because it is difficult to follow how brilliant children and great dunces can be educated in the same class?
LORD SILKIN: Reading, writing, arithmetic, geography, history—and, of course, when you get to a certain point you get on to maths.; but the ordinary arithmetic which most of us had to do until 13 or 14 would be done in the form. I am not laying down a rigid pattern: I am giving only a broad description of how these comprehensive schools are run—and different teachers have different conceptions.
At the end of the two or three years, as the case may be, of the general education, there is consultation among those teachers who know the child: and there are quite a number of consultations among the teachers and parents. The child's own wishes and aptitude have been studied and a decision is then made as to what are his particular characteristics—whether he is most suited to advance along academic lines, or science, or handicraft, a vocation of some kind, whatever the case may be. For the remainder of the school life of the child, subject to transfers wherever necessary (and it is very easy to transfer within the same school), that child develops along the lines most suitable for him.
This is done internally, by agreement, with the minimum of fuss, without the child getting any sense of inferiority, and at the age of 13 or 14 when the ability and aptitude of the child can be more accurately assessed than at the age of 11; and also in conditions where any mistake on the part of the parents or the teachers can be easily rectified. These are, broadly, the common features of the comprehensive school, but there is considerable variety among them and a great deal of experiment. There are now something like fifty of them throughout the country. They vary in size, ranging from schools for something like 800 children up to schools for over 2,000. Some are coeducational, some of one sex alone. They vary in their curriculum, in the nature of
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the sixth form, in the type of sets they have, in their methods of grouping and in all kinds of ways, and I think it is a very healthy thing that there should be this variety among the comprehensive schools.
Your Lordships may ask what are the advantages of the comprehensive school, and I would submit that there are a very large number. First, there is no satisfactory alternative method which removes the evil of selection at the age of 11 which I have described. It provides what was the favourite idea in the 1944 Act: that the three different types of schools that were visualised in that Act should have what was called parity of esteem. It was always intended, but unfortunately something went astray, that each of the three types should be of equal esteem. It should not be regarded as a sign of inferiority to be sent to one school as against another. The comprehensive school provides this parity of esteem. It largely eliminates the wastage to which I have referred. The ease of transfer within the same school makes it possible to rectify mistakes that might be made during the educational life of the child.
It is socially desirable that different types of children with different abilities and different home background should mix together in class, in games and outside the school in various forms of activity; in educational visits, and, in a great many cases, in holidays abroad. Many schools organise fortnightly trips abroad. It provides a wider range of studies than is possible in a school of one type, and it is, of course, more convenient geographically foe the majority of the children, because the school is much nearer their home. It provides opportunities for social intercourse outside the schools between different types of children, in the form of clubs and societies to which by far the majority of the children belong. It brings the parents together, and in a number of schools that I have visited I have found that 95 per cent. of the parents visit the schools fairly regularly and attend the various meetings, functions and social conventions held there. On the moral side, I understand that there has been a general raising of the tone of these children as compared with those who would have gone to a secondary modern school, and something like 70 per cent. of the children who are able to leave at the age of 15 voluntarily

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decide to stay on for another year to do more. Many of the teachers, although I would not say all of them yet, are dedicated to the cause of comprehensive schools; they have entered into the spirit of these schools and there is at them a most devoted type of teacher.
It would be wrong of me to pretend that, on the other hand, there are not serious critics of these schools, and I want to run through some of the criticisms which I have heard. The first is that children not possessing academic gifts will hold back the more gifted and there will be a levelling down. This argument was put forward in its most extreme form by the President of the Incorporated Association of Headmasters in a speech at the annual meeting of the Association, and reported in The Times of January 2 last. That says:
"Children were different in personality, in character and in intellectual attainment."
I must say that that is a profound discovery.
"It persuades the general public that the curriculum alone could transform any boy or girl into a don, a poet or a research scientist. For about three-quarters of the school population a purely academic training would be a form of cruelty which, if imposed regardless of capacity, would produce effects on the mind comparable to the bodily deformation of the most mediaeval tortures."
That, as I say, is a criticism of the comprehensive schools by the President of the Incorporated Association of Headmasters. I need hardly say that it is so intemperate, so prejudiced and ill-informed as to what the comprehensive schools are doing and how they are conducted, as really to answer itself.
The whole purpose of the comprehensive school is to try to give to each child the kind of education for which it is most suited and to give it also a solid educational background up to the age of 13 or 14. Incidentally, it is interesting to note that in the same presidential speech, after having condemned the comprehensive school in the way that he did, the President of the Incorporated Association of Headmasters said that the comprehensive school had much to offer rural communities. I find it a little difficult to follow that it has much to offer rural communities after this criticism, unless he means to suggest that it does not matter about rural communities; they axe not very important. But I leave that to the gentleman himself to reconcile.
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Experience shows that the brighter and more able children are not in fact held back by the presence of less bright children, but that they are even stimulated by their presence; and, vice versa, the less bright ones are stimulated by the presence of the brighter ones. I could give example after example of the achievements of these comprehensive schools, the standard of their education and what they have done in the General Certificate of Education; but I will not trouble the House with them, because I am bound to admit that, on the highest level—that is, the open university scholarship, and so on—these schools are not yet old enough to be able to demonstrate what they can do; the number of sixth forms is too few to reach any final conclusions. But, so far as they have gone, there is no doubt that their achievements have been considerable and are quite comparable with those of the grammar schools.
The next criticism is that the comprehensive school cannot provide a good enough sixth form. I have, in a sense, answered that. The main critic in this respect, curiously enough, is the High Master of the Manchester Grammar School. If I had deferred this debate for a month or so it might have been possible that the High Master would have made his maiden speech on this subject in this House, and we should have been most interested. I feel it is almost taking an unfair advantage to comment on his view in his absence. Most people recognise that the standard of the Manchester Grammar School is one of the highest in the country, and I do not pretend for one moment that in the early years the comprehensive schools are going to produce as good sixth forms as you get at the Manchester Grammar School, which has the pick of the boys from the North of England and a tremendously high tradition, and, as many noble Lords know, provides more open scholarships than any other school in the country. But I have high hopes—and I see no reason why they should not be realised—that in due course the comprehensive schools will be comparable with the best of the grammar schools, even in the case of sixth forms. And if the comparison is not with schools of the type of the Manchester Grammar School, but with the normal grammar school, then I think that to-day they can stand comparison,

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even on the potentialities of the sixth form.
A further criticism is that the establishment of the comprehensive school involves the abolition of the grammar school. It does nothing of the kind. The comprehensive school is not intended to compete with, to abolish or to interfere with the grammar school in any way; and I say that quite categorically. But let us remember that we are living in times of change; and nothing, not even the grammar schools, can remain unaffected by the times in which we live. Even to-day they are much different from what they were when they first started and from what they were when most of us were boys. Many have changed in recent years from being largely schools where the classics predominated and have had to develop scientific, technical, and even commercial and modern sides: indeed, they have become in themselves among the best of comprehensive schools.
By no means the majority of boys at Eton, Harrow, Winchester and so on are of the academic type; they are not all dons, poets, musicians or research scientists—and I doubt whether the gentleman who used that expression is himself one of those. Some of the products of these grammar schools are industrialists, technicians, civil servants and Servicemen, and some are even Members of this House and of another place. I imagine that the number of dons, musicians and poets in this House must be extremely limited. I believe that the march of events will naturally determine the future of the grammar school. Those of us who advocate the cause of the comprehensive school recognise the value of the great traditions of the best of the grammar schools, and I am confident that all that is best in them will be found in the comprehensive schools as they develop.
Many of the modern schools are developing along the same lines by widening their scope, so that in the technical schools and modern schools you may get an academic side, and likewise in the secondary modern school you may get a technical and commercial side. The general trend is to get a much wider form of education in all our secondary schools than has been the case hitherto. Indeed, I believe that the comprehensive system is gradually extending, the tripartite
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system is gradually breaking down and the future will tend towards educational organisation in one school. When I say, "one school" I mean one school. I do not mean three separate schools at some distance, even though they are organised and administered as one. I would not call that a comprehensive school. A comprehensive school should be a school where all departments are within one curtilage. Where you have an attempt to combine schools at some distance apart under one head you are getting the worst of all worlds; you are retaining the separateness of the children and getting none of the advantages of the comprehensive school.
I should like to refer for a moment to the White Paper published by the Minister of Education called Secondary Education for All. That says:
"The Government do not wish to rule out experiments with comprehensive or similar schools proposed on genuine educational grounds. There are two types of area, in particular, where local authorities have been able to satisfy the Minister that there was a case for such schools. The first is in country districts, in both England and Wales, where the population is comparatively sparse. The second is in areas of extensive new housing where there are no existing schools with a well-established tradition as grammar or technical or modern schools."
I leave the sparsely populated country districts and take the second category, the areas of extensive new housing or where there are no existing schemes. I take the policy to be that no one would to-day start up a system of three different types of school.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, for reasons which I shall give in due course, I do not think it to be a fair inference that the tripartite arrangement is obviously obsolete. I do not think it would be fair to infer, leaving that point aside, that my right honourable friend's policy was to say that nowhere would people think of starting from a clean sheet a system where there were two different types of schools. I think that that would be a false inference. What the White Paper says is that there is a case for a comprehensive school there. The noble Lord will remember that educational policy is
administered by local education authorities, and where the Minister says there is a case it means that local authorities would be entitled,

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if they accepted that particular case, to put it forward as a reasonable proposal, and not that the Minister would think it was the only case which could be put forward.
LORD SILKIN: I am quite content with the noble Viscount's way of putting it. I do not want to strain the language at all—it would be quite improper of me—but I read it to mean that where you are starting with a clean sheet there is definitely a case for these schools, and I am content to leave it there. That is the view of the Minister.
Moreover in paragraph 9 of the corresponding Scottish White Paper it says:
"Comprehensive schools are no novelty in Scotland: they have for long been the normal type in communities of moderate size and have also been provided in some more populous centres."
I hope I am not going too far in saying that these quotations concede in principle the case on educational grounds—not necessarily that in the view of the Minister the comprehensive school is the only kind of school, but that there is a case for them in areas of these types.
From what I have said about the development of these schools—with the fifty or more schools already in existence, with a substantial number under construction and with the considerable popularity of these schools throughout the country—it would be unrealistic still to regard the comprehensive school idea as experimental. Possibly that is the main difference between the Government and those who advocate these comprehensive schools. We believe that not only is it in the best interests of secondary education but that it is the only one which meets all the objections to the existing system of selection at the age of eleven. It is certainly unthinkable that we should go back along the existing lines; and, as I have said, in my view all the trends in the present grammar school and secondary modern education are in the direction of comprehensiveness. By all means let us experiment within the system—experiment in size, curriculum, organisation, entry, sex separation and many other ways. But it seems to me that the time has come for the general acceptance of the principle that at the end of the primary school education all children should go to the one school, there for the first two or three years receive the same form of education.
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and thereafter be selected in accordance with their various aptitudes and abilities.
I hope I have satisfied the House that these schools, rightly or wrongly, if you like, have been established on genuine educational grounds in the sincere conviction that selection at the age of 11 is harmful to the child and not in the best interests of education. Those who have provided these schools genuinely hold that that is the best solution of the difficulties which I have described, and that while there may be various types of comprehensive schools, broadly it is the only solution. If I am asked whether I would insist that in future all secondary schools should be comprehensive, I am bound to say that, provided the iniquitous system of selection of the child's future at the age of 11 is abandoned, I would give to local education authorities freedom to initiate alternative systems of secondary education. In some cases, as in Leicestershire, this has been done with encouraging results. But on the other hand there must equally be no pressure to prevent local education authorities from providing comprehensive schools if they so desire. If you take the view that the local education authorities are to be the judges, let them be the judges both ways; put no pressure on them to prevent them from building comprehensive schools, just as no pressure should be put upon them to build them. In the end I am convinced that public opinion will decide the issue in favour of the comprehensive school.
In the meantime I would appeal to all educationalists not to be governed by prejudice. It is natural for some people to stand in the way of anything that is new. It has always been so. Every advance in standards, in forms of progress, even every move to greater freedom of opportunity, has been, resisted by reactionaries. I hope that all who have doubts about the policy of the comprehensive school will visit a number of them before voicing a hostile opinion. In my experience everybody who has been to one of those schools has come away tremendously impressed, whatever his previous views may have been—and this applies to parents as well. I would therefore appeal to the Minister of Education and to the informed community as a whole to give every help and encouragement, critical if you like, to this new and

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developing system of secondary education. Every child—and I mean every child, and not 20 per cent. of children, imperfectly selected at the age of 11—is entitled to the best opportunity of developing his talents, ability, personality and character in the best possible conditions, regardless of his social origin. I am convinced that the new comprehensive system provides this best opportunity. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
4.3 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I did not, of course, know before the noble Lord uttered his speech exactly what he was going to say, and as I always try to the best of my ability to answer the arguments as they are presented, it necessarily follows that, although I have a great mass of material here which I could use in reply to him, I must necessarily go perhaps more slowly and extemporise more than I should otherwise have done. Before I start to reply to the noble Lord's speech, I certainly must discharge my own personal debt of gratitude to him for having postponed consideration of this Motion for a week in order to enable me to answer the debate. No doubt there are several noble Lords who sit beside me on the Government Bench who could have answered it as well or better, but I doubt whether there was anybody quite as eager to do so as I was, all the more eager because during my tenure of office as Minister of Education I never had an opportunity in this House of replying to a debate on education. The nearest thing I got to it was to reply as Treasury spokesman to a debate on the universities initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, and as a matter of history I was never given a chance to speak as a Departmental Minister in this House.
My Lords, the experience of having been a Minister for eight months (I do not know what effect it has on the children) has a very educative effect on the Minister. I do not suppose that there are many people who have the chance which is given to a Minister of Education to inform himself about the educational state of the country and to see so many different schools in so many different parts of the country, or to be advised by a group of officials who are more passionately dedicated to their subject or more deeply informed about its intricacies and about the issues involved.
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To some extent it is the death of many prejudices with which one embarks upon the case. If I am able to convey to the House something of what I learned or tried to learn during my tenure of office as Minister, I shall feel that this debate has been very well worth while from my point of view, because it was an extremely enriching and informing experience, and I certainly shall carry with me for the rest of my life not only an interest in the subject—which I think I can honestly claim always to have had—but also a viewpoint which I believe no one who has not shared the experience of responsibility in the Ministry of Education can really enjoy.
In the course of what I have to say I shall differ a lot in detail from many of the expressions of opinion which have fallen from the noble Lord, but for one thing I should like to thank him: I would thank him for the tone of what he has said, quite irrespective of its content. In matters of education I would respectfully say to the House that, curiously enough, the tone is often more important than the content, although this is something which will both surprise and, I fear, annoy some of the more dogmatic adherents to the different schools of thought in the educational world, of which there are a great number. But when I was Minister I made myself a promise which I have never regretted: that I would try to keep the office of Minister of Education as far as possible out of the more violent realms of Party politics. I know I was right to try, and I believe I succeeded in doing so.
I would say that it should be the aim of every Minister of Education who takes his work seriously to make the same effort. I would go further and say that it is really the duty of those who embark upon debate on this subject to make the same effort. There are—and this is of great relevance to the subject which the noble Lord has raised—two extremely important reasons for this. In the first place, the Minister, or indeed the central authority generally, has to conduct business with a very large number of local authorities of differing political complexions which are elected by the local community over which they are placed. Each of those local authorities is, or at any rate ought to be, entitled to a wide degree of independence in the administration of its own area. It is the duty, I

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should have thought, of the Minister and of the Parliament to which the Minister is responsible to endeavour to win and to keep the confidence of those local authorities. The Act proclaims it as the duty of the Minister:
"… to promote the education of the people of England and Wales … and to secure the effective execution by local authorities, under his control and direction, of the national policy for providing a varied and comprehensive educational service in every area."
I would stress both words, if I may, to the House, both "varied" and "comprehensive", which in the context of the Act, of course, means all-embracing, and certainly does not mean, although it would not necessarily exclude, the principle to which the noble Lord has referred as comprehensive in the course of his speech.
But, my Lords, there is a second and even more compelling reason why Party politics if they cannot be entirely excluded should be kept at a discreet and, so far as possible, low temperature in this particular aspect of public affairs. Rightly or wrongly, the Minister of Education is looked upon by millions of parents up and down the country as the guardian of the educational future of their children. They are not the Minister's children. The parents are of different social classes, different religions and different political Parties. It is the parents whose wishes should, as a general principle, be respected
"so far as is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure,"
and the parents, whatever their religion or their politics, are entitled to look to a national Minister to safeguard those parental rights. I am not talking now in terms of pious aspirations: the words which I have been using are the words of the law, for I have been quoting Section 76 of the Act.
It is with these thoughts in my mind, my Lords, that I come to the subject which the noble Lord has raised, and it is in that spirit that I desire to interpret the issues involved in what he has had to say. I was grateful to the noble Lord for choosing as his subject secondary education. From one point of view it is, of course, as the noble Lord began by saying, only one link in the chain. Whether it is or is not the most important link is something which it would ill become anyone who has held the office of Minister, or aspires to it, to pronounce on,
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because there is no more hotly disputed subject between the different classes of teacher. By selecting secondary education as the subject of his Motion, the noble Lord put his finger, I thought, upon what is really the whole essence of the matter of education at the present time—an essence which tends to be obscured by much of the detail in contemporary controversy.
The noble Lord said, and it is admitted from some points of view as a truism, that primary education is the foundation upon which all else is built. With that, I would agree. I would also share his hope that primary education might also be made the subject of debate in this House. But, however much we may reiterate this truth, however much we may be driven to confess, sometimes with shame, sometimes with anxiety, the shortcomings of primary education; or however often we may be led to boast, as I think we legitimately can in another mood, of the immense advances made in primary education; or however much we may draw attention, as we also legitimately can, to our tremendous achievements at the other end of the scale in university and technological training, the essence of our present-day problem, of which we can never lose sight, lies in the fact to which the noble Lord drew attention: that for the first time in the history of this country the Butler Act was designed to provide secondary education for all, up to the age, at first, of fifteen, and then of sixteen, and then through the county colleges and so on to eighteen. And since the war intense efforts have been made by successive Ministers to carry that Act into effect. It is in the light of this central consideration, I believe, that all our educational problems need to be seen in order to give their true context and perspective.
It was for that reason, in a sense, that I was sorry that the noble Lord changed the terms of his Motion and restricted it, as he sought to do, to the problem of selection and the advocacy in which he indulges for one particular principle, the comprehensive principle, in our system of secondary education. I would say to the noble Lord that even if this restriction is right (which I do not think, on the whole, it is), the problem of selection and the problem raised by his advocacy of

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the comprehensive principle can be understood only in the light of the general context of the provision of secondary education for all up and down the country, and the problems of supply, to which I shall draw attention in some detail later—teacher supply, building supply, equipment supply—to which that situation gives rise. If I were to make a general criticism of the noble Lord's speech to begin with—I know he will forgive me for doing so—I think it was to some extent his failure to stress, out of a desire to stick to the terms of his Motion, the severity and seriousness of these supply problems. I feel that they vitiate a good deal of his argument.
As his Motion originally stood, it drew attention to the problems of secondary education. As it stands now, it draws particular attention to the two problems of selection and the comprehensive principle. But just as I think he was right to draw attention to the central importance of secondary education as the issue before us in the country to-day, I think that that issue tends to be obscured, rather than illustrated, by drawing particular attention to the problems of selection and the rival merits of different types of school. I must tell the House that eight months at the Ministry of Education led me to believe without doubt that to concentrate at his end of the problem is to confuse symptoms with causes. If I may put it in a sentence, the problems of secondary education are not the problems of selection, but the problems of the provision of adequate teachers—that is to say, teachers adequate in quality as well as in quantity—adequate buildings and equipment, and suitable courses of instruction. If these are provided I profoundly believe, and am completely convinced, that there is no problem of selection which need give rise to any anxiety of any insuperable difficulty whatsoever.
If, on the other hand, these essential shortfalls are not provided, no alteration in the method of selection, and no fancy ideas about types of school, in one direction or the other, will do anything whatever to mitigate the problems which exist. All the problems of selection are made difficult, and sometimes heartrending, not by anything inherent in selection itself but because of deficiencies, past or present, in teacher provision or
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school provision. Remove these deficiencies and there is no sting in selection. Fail to remove them and you will have continuing injustice to children, whether you select or not, or whatever method or principle or age you choose as your basis of selection. If I may turn now to what I mean by that, and why I have come to hold that view—although I will return shortly afterwards as I promised faithfully to do to the main burden of the noble Lord's speech—I must ask the House to bear with me while I deal with these difficulties of shortfall; because my own belief is that until they have been discussed frankly any talk about selection or the principle or pattern of school is almost a waste of time.
I will deal first with the question of teachers and class sizes. The House will, of course, be aware that for quite a number of years past the regulations have provided for a maximum class size of forty for juniors and infants, and then, with a greater measure of flexibility, for thirty at the secondary stage. As a matter of comparison I cannot help recalling that the mediæval rabbis regarded twenty-five at any age as a convenient maximum; and for another point of comparison I cannot avoid pointing out that the cost of reducing and enforcing a maximum of forty or thirty to a universal maximum of thirty throughout the educational system would be of the order of £200 million a year. As the House will be aware, however, the problem before Ministers of Education since the war has not been one of reducing the maximum permissible size of the classes but of reducing the classes to the maximum permissible size. Here there has been a gratifying advance on the primary front. The average-sized class is now only 33·9, or well below the maximum; and the percentage of over-sized classes has fallen on that front from 31·1 to 22·9 between the years 1950 and 1958.
In the secondary field the position has been no more than held. The teacher-pupil ratio has marginally improved; the percentage of over-sized classes, while substantially the same, has marginally deteriorated, although so marginally that it was only by one-half of 1 per cent. This is due, of course, to the movement through the secondary schools of the so-called population "bulge". From

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several points of view, since I was Minister the situation as regards teacher provision, at least in secondary schools, has been more acute. When I was Minister I was working on official figures supplied by the National Advisory Council for the Training and Supply of Teachers, which indicated that there would be a substantial fall in the birth-rate—although even then I could not help asking how the Government Actuary discovered what the birth-rate was going to be. At any rate, I was working on a projection which indicated an actual decline in the school population. Had that in fact happened, there might even have been slight unemployment in some branches of the teaching profession by the middle 1960s.
It is already clear that these figures, which were operative only two years ago, were based on two false assumptions. The anticipated fall in the birth-rate has not taken place—and I personally rejoice that it has not; and, equally fortunate, but equally disconcerting for the forecasters, the proportion of those voluntarily remaining at school has once again exceeded expectations. In terms of the rather meaningless totals that one has to use for the sake of brevity, the estimate of teachers required by 1968 has in consequence been increased by no fewer than 27,000—from 299,000 when I was Minister, to 326,000 as calculated to-day.
Secondly, when I was Minister I decided to accept the recommendation of the National Advisory Council for the Training and Supply of Teachers to increase the training course for non-graduate teachers from two to three years in 1960 I am sure that this was the right decision for me to take; in point of fact, we are almost the only developed country with a two-year course. At the time my decision was criticised as unduly cautious. There were those who would have wished me to introduce the three-year course in 1959. I decided not to do so, owing to the greater priority of improving the pupil-teacher ratio. My successor, faced with far less favourable population figures, has been criticised from exactly the opposite point of view, for adhering at all to my decision, or at least for not postponing it until 1961; since, whenever the three-year course is introduced, the effect will be to reduce the yearly output, two years after the introduction of non-graduate teachers, to a
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very small figure indeed. I am sure that my right honourable friend was right to stick to his guns.
The result of these considerations has been to increase his difficulties and to leave him to put forward an ambitious increase in his teacher-training facilities. This increase aims at a 50 per cent. expansion to be completed by the autumn of 1962. I would agree that, on paper, a larger increase still might have been desirable; indeed, the National Advisory Council suggested a programme aimed at an annual figure of 16,000, as against 12,000. My right honourable friend, however, had to be guided by practical considerations, such as the strain that rapid expansion puts on technical resources, the present limited size of the college system, the major uncertainties of the future birth-rate and the rate of wastage among teachers. Nevertheless, he has said that he will keep an open mind on this subject, and that if further forecasts make it clear that a 50 per cent. expansion is not enough he will look at the matter again.
The effect of all this is that our belief continues to be that over-sized classes in primary schools will have been virtually eliminated by the 1960s, and that the situation in secondary schools will certainly continue difficult for a year or two, as the number of pupils continues to rise. We may hope for a decisive improvement in the next five years, however. In the meantime, I ought to add, for the sake of completeness, that the number of graduates entering the leaching profession continues to be maintained. In assisted schools it continues to rise satisfactorily, with 4,600 in 1957, as against 3,600 in 1955. With the expansion in the university programme one can look forward without undue optimism to an increase comparable to the increase in the number of graduates. In particular, in the vital field of mathematics and science, the output of scientists and technologists should double in the next decade.
To give the background to this subject, without which it is really unintelligible, I should look again at the question of school provision—by which I mean the provision of school buildings. Despite an extraordinary and sustained burst of school building, and some, to me at least, amazing improvements, both in economy

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and in quality of design, we have still a great deal of leeway to make up. During the time that I was Minister, building was primarily designed for the elementary task of providing some kind of a roof over the head of every child. In the course of this building there was, of course, a great deal of much-needed reorganisation going on. For instance, to take the grammar schools alone, 120 have been built since the war; 150 others have had major extensions completed, and about 100 more are under construction or have been approved, as have 150 major extensions. This will result, before the new five-year drive begins to bite, in about two-fifths of the grammar schools of the country being housed either in new buildings or in buildings that have been substantially improved since 1948. We must now look again, however, at school buildings of all types of school, to see what buildings are due for replacement under the new plan.
By far the most urgent of our building problems, however, lies in the reorganisation of all-age schools. Between 1951 and 1958 the number of all-age schools fell from 5.600 to 2,300, and the proportion of 13-year old children accommodated in them from 17 per cent. to 7 per cent. In 1957 alone, the number of all-age schools fell by more than 500 and the number of senior children in them by 25,000. But even by last year there were still 140,000 senior children in all-age schools, and that is why local education authorities were asked to submit to the Ministry by February 1, 1959, a statement showing what reorganisation remains to be done. The intention is to make a good start on the urban reorganisation in the first two years of the five-year period and within that period at least to start on secondary schools required to complete urban reorganisation. Two-thirds of the 400 secondary schools required for rural reorganisation in 1954 have now either been constructed or approved. Within the first two years of the five-year plan it is proposed to include all, or nearly all, of the 120 remaining schools.
In connection with the building programme I ought to add a word about the improvement of facilities for teaching science. Between 1947 and 1957 the number of advanced level passes in the General Certificate of Education rose
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from 10,000 to 14,000 in mathematics, from 8,000 to 15,000 in physics, and from 7,000 to 13,000 in chemistry. These figures explain why so much of the expansion of the universities which the Government are planning will be devoted to the enlargement of science facilities.
Since the war more than £20 million has been spent on the provision and equipment of science laboratories at new and enlarged maintained secondary schools of all kinds. This compares with the £3 million spent in three years on independent and direct-grant schools by the Industrial Fund. In both the last programmes, those for 1958–59 and 1959–60, there were included projects to the value of about £2 million designed to improve science facilities in the maintained secondary school. This, I think, is absolutely necessary to see, for reasons which I will try to elaborate as the context in which and the background against which discussion has to take place on the problems of selection and the comprehensive school to which the noble Lord has drawn attention.
I return now with that, I think, absolutely necessary background to the discussion. As the noble Lord has said, since the war we have been engaging in a vast and vital new experiment: the provision of secondary education for all children. This is the wood which accounts for all, or virtually all, of the trees; that is, the issues raised this afternoon; and it is, I would say, the vital clue which, if it is pertinaciously followed, will in the end unravel all the educational problems we have this afternoon to discuss. In this case, I may be forgiven for my historical introduction.
It is important, although I would say probably to your Lordships elementary, to remember that before the war secondary education was available, broadly speaking, to only two classes of pupil: the pupil whose parents could afford to pay a fee representing the whole or part of the cost of tuition and, in the case of boarding pupils, maintenance as well, and the exceptional pupil who was taught free or nearly free at the cost of the public. The latter was of course the most familiar type of education within the reach of the masses, and even of those who qualified for this type of education there must, I should think, have been many who were unable to avail themselves of it owing

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to the necessity, which bore hardly on parents in the days of under-employment, especially when there were no children's allowances, to maintain their children at school, after others had begun to work and contribute to the family resources.
A place at a grammar school, as the noble Lord has reminded us, was often called—I think I might even say miscalled, but still often called—a scholarship; and as the result a grammar school education remains in the eyes of many parents to this day the only type of education worth having. I am bound to tell the noble Lord, without any element of reproach in my voice, that I thought I caught a trace of that outlook in his own speech this afternoon. But whether I did or whether I did not, I hope to persuade him that this is completely and utterly mistaken. Whether this is so or not, a grammar school education was before the war, for slightly different reasons, the only type of education available for both types of pupil which I have been trying to describe.
To-day I regard the situation as basically altered. A grammar school course—and for the moment I do not beg the question whether such a course of adequate quality is available or not at the comprehensive school—remains, I think beyond question, by far the most beneficial secondary education for the academically exceptional boy or girl. But I would add at once that it has certain serious limitations—limitations which I do not think were wholly present in the noble Lord's mind as he spoke this afternoon. The course, for good or evil, humanistic or scientific, is highly academic. It remains much too highly academic, I would say, for those not over-gifted academically; and a very large number of teenagers do not benefit from, and in fact do not enjoy, such highly academic courses. It is, of course, extremely exacting, even for those who can benefit from it. I would say, again, speaking personally but speaking from some experience, that it is far too exacting for any except those whose talents enable them to enjoy the course.
At the higher levels—and here again I speak from very considerable experience—no one who visits a grammar school can avoid the dominant impression that it is a place of hard self-discipline in the pursuit of knowledge. For those who fail, having started it, or for the marginal
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type who can just benefit from it but barely do so, I would say, with complete conviction, that it is hardly the most beneficial course for them to take. I would go further and say that its greatest benefit is
generally reaped only by the pupils who go beyond it into the university or other further education. However, for all these limitations, it remains the true gateway to the higher learning.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Viscount. What he is saying is very interesting. But would he apply this argument to the average boy who goes to our great public schools, or to the boy who is perhaps slightly less than average?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think that that would lead me too far outside the ambit of what I propose to say. It is a very interesting question, but the answer is neither absolutely "Yes" nor absolutely "No." If we start talking about different kinds of courses available at the public schools it would require much more detailed examination than I am prepared to give it. But in the main I refer to grammar school courses. And I must add this. Although, of course, I have experience of one public school, I could not claim the same breadth of experience of the other system as could as a result of holding the office I did two years ago.
It would not, I think, be too much to say that on the minority of children able to benefit from grammar-school courses in one sense the whole future of Britain in science, technology and the arts really depends. To threaten to abolish grammar schools or their courses in order to achieve a benefit to those who would not profit by them would be a crime. The crime would not only be a crime against the gifted child, although it would be a crime against him; it would not only be a crime against the nation, although it would be a crime against the nation; it would also be a crime against the normal child, because the whole burden of my argument this afternoon is that the normal child requires a different kind of course, and the inevitable result of grouping him with a number of academically gifted children may be—I repeat, may be—to mutilate the course in favour of the academic slant and against the kind of course the normal child may well require. That is a view very widely held, at any

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rate in the educational profession; and I shall perhaps return, if I have time, to a number of expressions of opinion to that effect.
My Lords, the provision of secondary education for all inevitably, therefore, involves something more than the replenishment of the shortfalls which I began by describing; something more than the provision of fresh teachers, more classrooms and new books. It inevitably involves the emergence of a new type of course of secondary education; and that must be the implication of the Butler Act, although the curriculum has never been, and I hope never will be, an affair for the local education authorities, or, for that matter, for the Ministry, but is a matter for the teaching profession. Whether you have a system of selection or whether you do not, and whether you adopt the principle of comprehensive schools or whether you reject it, a new type of secondary course was certain to emerge from the proposition that secondary education had to be provided for all. For universal secondary education a new conception was required: a course which would be as long potentially as the grammar school course in point of time—that is to say, for five years—but tailor-made to the need, to the taste, and to the requirement of the ordinary teen-age child. It will be observed—and I repeat—that such a course would be required quite irrespective of the school attended. Incidentally, I must say that such a course would probably benefit most of all the kind of marginal child who has hitherto been compelled either to break his spirit on the Procrustes bed of grammar school learning or to have no secondary school education at all.
Perhaps it would be convenient at this stage for me to remove what I thought was a misunderstanding on the part of the noble Lord, who referred to the original conception of the Norwood Report of the tripartite division of the secondary education system into grammar, technical, and secondary modern, each forming one vertical layer of an imaginary three-decker cake. My Lords, I would regard that conception as obsolete. I do not wish to divert your Lordships from the main current of this discussion to give a detailed reason why, but I would say that the future of the technical school does not lie at all in the realm of being
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a second-best to a grammar school, or in being an imitation of a secondary modern school. The hope for the future of the technical schools (most of which require re-housing rather more than any other type, because they have largely been housed in buildings belonging to an older and less successful type of school altogether) lies in the provision of a course of grammar school quality but without the accepted grammar school tradition limiting its size and shape. I developed these ideas at much greater length in a speech which I made at a secondary technical school when I was Minister; but I would personally regard the old tripartite category as something which, if not obsolete, was at least obsolescent.
My Lords, experience has shown that the new type of course required is not found either in the old grammar school course itself or—and it is of great importance to appreciate this, I think—in any truncated or mutilated version of the grammar school course. I believe that no competent educationist would endorse Mr. Gaitskell's remark "grammar school education for all". If that were done, I believe that the whole benefit of the new secondary education for a great majority of pupils would be largely lost. Experience in the last ten years has taught us that a totally new approach to secondary education is required if we are to carry out the spirit and reap the benefit of the 1944 Act. I would say that the best modern teaching is already providing the reality of such courses. I wish I could describe the feeling of exhilaration to be found in the best secondary modern courses. In practice, they produce the latent talent wherever it is.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, recounted an experience of his own in relation to a particular pupil who was selected first for a secondary modern school and ultimately, owing to the noble Lord's intervention, was transferred to a grammar school. Of course, it is not for me to dilate upon the merits or demerits of any individual case, but I would say this. First of all, I would ask the noble Lord to put entirely out of this mind the idea that the pupils of the grammar schools of this country are selected from a different social class than the secondary modern school pupils. They do, in fact, provide the avenue to a university degree enjoyed by all classes of the community, and he

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must be wrong in thinking that the girl in whom he had a friendly interest was not transferred for that reason. But, from my experience in this matter, I would say that the very fact of having been for a year or two at a secondary modern school, with its more flexible type of course, catering for the normal child and giving him or her special attention, may have been the very circumstance which enabled her to do so well at the grammar school when she went there.
I should like to cite an example of my own. One of the many schools that I visited when I was Minister was a girls' secondary modern school in the West Riding of Yorkshire. That was a secondary modern school where much of what I have been trying to describe is already in effect. I was told, and believed, that this school, which did not, in fact, itself provide a sixth form, was sending a regular stream of pupils to the sixth form of a neighbouring grammar school. The headmaster of the grammar school told me that when they got there they were among his most promising and successful pupils in the sixth form. I was also told, and believed, having studied the matter and having seen the school, that the reason for their success lay in the fact that in the earlier years of their secondary education they had been given a course which was suitable for them, which brought out the best in them, and enabled them to graduate to the G.C.E., through the sixth form of the grammar school. I believe that, if they had been unfortunate enough to be selected or forced into a grammar school mould at earlier stages, they would inevitably have been unhappy and would, in fact, have not done so well.
My Lords, I could give many examples of this, because I have a great deal of material here, but I will content myself with drawing the attention of noble Lords opposite to the most remarkable and worthy document by the headmaster of. I think, a grammar school which appears in this week's New Statesman. He says:
"Too little is known about the amazing progress by the Modern schools in the past ten years. All over the country they are increasingly becoming communities with a genuine sense of purpose; where young people of normal ability strive on an equal basis for excellence in a wide variety of fields; where skilled and enthusiastic teachers, who know what they are aiming at, train children to do what they want to do and to do it well. It
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is not surprising that much of the opposition to the Labour education policy comes from the staffs of good secondary Modern schools".
He goes on to say that it might well be that the destruction of the existing pattern might well have a depressing effect upon the secondary modern pupils, because, he says:
"…there is one disadvantage which seems to be insurmountable in the Comprehensive school; in the upper reaches of the school in particular, the responsible positions go to the academics; indeed throughout the school, it is the less intellectual who are forced out of the limelight and who fail to benefit from much which the school can offer. In this connection it is worth quoting from a teacher who has been for 12 years in an established Comprehensive school:
'All our prefects have come from the academic streams…that is true also of the house captains…as do the majority of the teams. Violin classes, and consequently the
orchestra, are attended mainly by academic children. The choirs contain few non-academics; although great efforts are made to include them in plays (as in all school and house activities) it is rare for even one to be willing to take a part. I…recognise in my present school many who, in a different setting, would have been responsible and successful leaders. It is not the attack on the Grammar school which can do most harm, but the abolition of the Modern school.'"
I would not go the whole way with that experienced teacher. He is a man of strong opinions on educational subjects not accepted by all other teachers. At the same time I think we should be aware of the strength of feeling that these subjects excite. Those who try to do away with the secondary modern school are really destroying or threatening to destroy perhaps the most important and significant development of modern secondary education. A secondary modern course is not an inferior type of education to that of a grammar school, but a new, stimulating and infinitely superior course tailor-made for those who can benefit from it. To deny it to children who can benefit by it is to deny them justice. It is also to deny justice to an exceptional child to deny him the traditional academic course available in a grammar school. The danger in the indiscriminate advocacy of the comprehensive school principle is that in the interests of imagined equality injustice will be done to both classes of pupils.
I should be the first to admit that the reality differs greatly from the ideal. The secondary modern course has hitherto usually been planned for only four years. Many schools are still unreorganised.

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Many buildings are totally unsuitable. Some teachers are sail perhaps not fully capable of giving the best of the newer courses. Much equipment is still lacking. Above all, many classes and teaching groups are too unwieldy. It is these facts that give substance to the fears of parents who entertain the belief, born very largely of the false impression derived from their image of an obsolete and half-forgotten pattern of education, that if their child performs the manœuvre known as "failing the 11-plus" the child is somehow handicapped for life. I was sorry that the noble Lord this afternoon gave further currency to this belief. The effect on a child is not final and is not handicapping. A child who goes to a modern course in a modern building with a go-ahead teacher, by the age of 18 is normally more advanced than if he had scraped into a grammar school and been a lame duck for six years—and succeeded in addition in handicapping both his teachers and the more gifted pupils with whom he was associated.
The reality is different. Whatever may handicap a child selected for a modern school it is not the absence of a comprehensive school or his failure to enter the grammar school but the presence of an obsolete building, an oversize class, an inadequate teacher, poor equipment, or old fashioned courses when he gets to the secondary modern school, in place of the kind of building, the kind of teacher and the kind of course that he requires. The remedy is to provide what is lacking. Anything else is mere double talk, and whether you provide it in one form or another is, from one point of view, of quite secondary importance. I would question the figures given by the noble Lord to illustrate what he described as the fortuitous chance of selection between one part of the country and another. Of course different areas have different conditions in this matter. To quote Welsh figures in comparison with those of the London boroughs is not to compare like with like. These figures may include bilateral schools in what they call grammar school figures.
This enables me to discuss the proposed abolition of the 11-plus examination. If this means that there is to be no sorting of pupils at the phase between primary and secondary education—and I do not beg the question as to what age
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the children should be—I say the proposition is a fraud. If it means that some administrative device can give children something that they have not got, but still leave the old buildings in existence, the same size classes and the same equipment, it is worse than a fraud; it is a dangerous and criminal conspiracy to deceive. If it means that the gifted child must somehow be penalised in order to preserve the facade of a spurious equality with the less gifted, or compelled to follow the same course of instruction, or refused the opportunity to sharpen his wits on similarly gifted children, it is a wicked injustice both to the ordinary child and to the exceptional child.
On the other hand, there is a very great deal to be said for abolishing the examination if by that is meant the elimination of the false degree of terror that lies in the breasts of a generation of parents who in their youth knew only the choice between grammar school education and none at all, and a generation of pupils who are terrorised by such parents. If by that is meant the abolition for all children of secondary age of the all-age school, the over-size class, the slum building, the second-rate teacher, and the course slanted unduly on academic lines, there would be a very great deal to be said for it. If it means recognition that 11 is not an age at which every child's future can be decided conclusively and that transferability in one direction is no slur and in another is an event which is to be encouraged, there is a great deal to be said for it. There are certainly no statistics available on this point, but in the course of my wanderings from one school to another I was not seldom introduced to such pupils and I was particularly anxious to talk to them and their teachers as to the effect it had, and it was not at all in accordance with what the noble Lord told the House. There is a very great deal to be said for abolition if undue emphasis on trick questions and psychological tests is subordinated to simple and well-understood procedures which engender neither apprehension nor ridicule.
All this is in the White Paper and there is no room for Party politics in it, nor would I seek to speak on Party lines. I would also say that when, in the long run, we have settled down and the immediate crisis of shortfall in quality as well

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as quantity has been overcome, I doubt whether 11 would be a suitable age at which to move from primary to secondary education. But I can imagine no more disastrous step in the present context than to give effect to this conviction in England and Wales in advance of other and more pressing problems.
I have not mentioned in detail the much-publicised comprehensive school. I rave not done so for the very good reason that I would say that what matters is not doctrinaire approach to the organisation of schools, but an imaginative and progressive approach to courses, teacher-provision, school building, interchangeability, and equipment. So long as we Lave grammar school courses, by all means let us have comprehensive schools in some areas. What would be wrong is their imposition on all areas, and the implied condemnation, which is wholly unjustified, of schools of the traditional pattern. What is wrong is the belief that the comprehensive school is an instrument of social justice and not an experiment in educational expedience.
I am not, I hope, doctrinaire in this matter. Nor, I think, have other Conservative Ministers of Education been. This is shown by the figures. I do not think anybody would have realised from the noble Lord's figures and his description of the comprehensive school how very experimental in this country the comprehensive conception is. In all the schools in this country there are at the moment fewer than fifty comprehensive schools. But as the school cannot be judged until it has developed a sixth form, it cannot be judged until it is at least five years old. There are, I believe, only thirteen comprehensive schools to which this particular rubric applies. I think that the noble Lord should have mentioned this.
Incidentally, it means—and I emphasise this point—that all the comprehensive schools in this country except a tiny minority have been opened at a time when the central Government has been Conservative in political Party complexion. The only times, so far as I know, when Conservative Ministers of Education have intervened against local authorities in the matter have been when, a is sometimes the case, a doctrinaire authority has wantonly interfered with an existing pattern of good secondary schooling in order to impress its pre-
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conceived notions in a situation to which it has no proper application. The only thing that we on this side of the House should object to—and I must say we should be prepared to resist it, as a matter of conscience, tooth and nail—would be the enforcement of the proposal, to which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, did not refer at all, in the Labour Party pamphlet,
"to require local education authorities to provide secondary education plans designed with all reasonable speed to adopt the comprehensive principle."
That is what we should object to, and that is what we should fight. We regard this policy as arbitrary, tyrannical, retrograde and doctrinaire, and we should oppose it on those grounds.
Moreover, if the English language is to have any meaning at all, I must tell the noble Lord bluntly that it is foolish to pretend that it is not a death sentence on grammar schools, as we know them, and the murder of all the promising experiments all over the country in modern schooling. When the noble Lord says that he would not tolerate the abolition of the grammar school he is modifying the threat which now overhangs the secondary schooling of the country as a result of his Party's policy pamphlet. If any other noble Lord is to speak from those Benches, I shall be glad to hear which of the two we are now to believe is Labour policy: the policy of requirement imposed on local authorities contained in this document, or the totally different policy enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin.
The policy of the document is arbitrary and tyrannical because it substitutes the judgment of the politician at Westminster for the wish of the local community. That is the essence of the matter. It is doctrinaire because in place of a pattern which conforms to local tradition and requirement, and which fits the layout of existing building, it imposes an overall principle, irrespective of whether it is appropriate of not; and it is retrograde because it will tend to reimpose the false snobbery of the academic course on all, just at the moment when advanced thought has begun to escape from it.
If we oppose the policy set out in the document this is not because we would deny to the comprehensive or bilateral school an honoured place in our system.

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There will be many areas where it is best; some where it is at least equally good, and others where it is quite legitimate—country areas, to which the noble Lord referred, where the population is comparatively sparse; new housing areas where schools of the existing pattern do not exist; areas where the availability of sites really demands schools of a very large size, 1,000 or upwards, as the common type. In many other areas this type of school will be quite unsuitable. I must say that many local education authorities prefer smaller schools (even the London County Council are moving away from the gigantic schools that they were planning a few years ago), and many have established grammar schools or will wish to establish them in future. Many will wish to establish new secondary modern schools more in line with current educational trends. There ought to be no overriding of Conservative local education authorities by a Socialist Minister or of Socialist local education authorities by a Conservative Minister unless it can be shown that a local authority has forgotten the interests of the children and teachers in its care for the interest of some political dogma, or some general theory applied without regard to local circumstances or traditions.
It is here that I would end with a sincere plea to the Party of noble Lords opposite. The educational world is sincerely and deeply divided on this topic, for reasons to which I have already referred, and only lack of time has led me to forbear to quote further from the remarkable article by Mr. Harry Rée in the current number of the New Statesman. My only plea is that we should avoid any attempt at political gleichschaltung on the national level, and it is this gleichschaltung that the present form of the Labour policy pamphlet threatens to impose. Left to themselves there will be ample scope for local authorities, with their communities behind them to adopt the comprehensive principle if they believe in it and if it can be shown to make in that community some kind of educational sense. But let any suggestion of a national requirement be dropped. And let the arguments at the local authority level be educational arguments, such as the noble Lord advanced, and not doctrinaire.
I am sure that the Party opposite have nothing to fear from the step which I ask
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them to take. The arguments against the comprehensive principle are not, believe me, based either on ignorance or on political grounds. They are held sincerely by educationists with every right to speak on purely professional considerations. At least one of the teaching trade unions has declared against it. The denominations—and I am glad to see that the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, is to speak—would find it tolerable only if they were allowed to contract out of it, and at least one arguable opinion seems to be that, in practice, the comprehensive school tends to do the very thing which it is designed to avoid—namely, depress the status of the academically normal child and exalt the academically gifted.
My Lords, in making this plea to noble Lords opposite to take this matter out of the realm of Party politics on the national level, I am not asking them to sacrifice a single one of their convictions. They have majorities on a local basis in a very large number of local education authorities throughout the country, including I am sorry to say, the Metropolis. Presumably if they secured power at a General Election none of these would fare any worse at the hands of the Central Government than they do now. In this respect, however, they could hardly expect to fare better, because, so far as I am aware, the only complaint on this front against Conservative Ministers is that we have fallen over backwards in not obstructing the wishes of Labour local authorities. All that is asked is that local communities should determine their own future, and that when they do local authorities should allow themselves to be guided by educational rather than political arguments. I am conscious that if this course were followed, the Party of which I am Chairman would be deprived of an extremely powerful, and, as matters stand, entirely legitimate political weapon. All the same, it is a political weapon that I would far rather be without. I can imagine no greater misfortune to the true interests of education and human beings that it serves than that it should be returned to the cockpit of Party politics.
My Lords, since I was Minister two years ago, I have often had cause to reflect on the singular service rendered by my right honourable friend Mr. R. A. Butler to the cause of education in 1944. But I would say that, more than any

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other service that he rendered, was his service to the atmosphere in which from that time onward education has been administered. That, I think, has been generally recognised, both in the religious and in the political sphere. I have noticed in the last two years a tendency, perhaps on both sides, to restore the element of rancour which unfortunately disfigured the treatment of this subject before the war. I was deeply grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for the appeal he made to limit our debate to-day to educational arguments, and for my part I would sincerely ask noble Lords to refrain from adhering to the policy of requirement imposed on local authorities who do not happen to share their convictions on general political grounds.
5.10 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF RIPON: My Lords, it is obviously suitable that something should be said from these Benches in this House. I am only sorry that the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Chichester, who had intended to come here to speak (he being Chairman of the Schools Council of the Church Assembly Board of Education), has fallen a victim to the disease of influenza and at the last moment sent an S.O.S. asking me to speak for him. I confess that when that request came I had seen the original form of the Motion, and until I came into the House this afternoon I did not know that it was limited in the way it is. The notes I had made were about the wider subject, and therefore I am the more grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, for opening up the wider subject, because I am perfectly sure that this particular limited problem cannot be tackled or understood unless it is seen in the light of the whole problem of secondary education and the problem of education as a whole.
Secondary education is not something completely independent of primary education. Primary education leads up to secondary education, and if the primary education is unsatisfactory, inevitably the secondary education that follows it will suffer. Education is one continual process, in which the earlier years are of the most fundamental importance—not perhaps in the actual learning; that a child receives then, but in the attitude he learns to adopt towards
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learning as such. New techniques which have appeared in the primary schools are something quite wonderful. It is true that it is extraordinarily difficult to apply them in some of our primary schools, because the surroundings are so unsatisfactory—the buildings and the size of classes. How some teachers manage to keep order and instruct children in classes of the size they have to tackle beats me every time. I take my hat off to them as doing a wonderful job. I welcome the Government White Paper very much indeed, with its promise of expenditure on primary education in the way of buildings.
In the past, primary education has been essentially the interest of the Churches, though that is not confined, of course, to primary education. I think that the Church of England—and I can speak with knowledge only from the point of view of the Church of England—has suffered from the fact that it has been a pioneer in this education, because that means that many of its buildings are out of date. They are unsatisfactory, and we admit it. We want to replace them. We are often blamed for not doing so, but we have not been allowed to replace them, owing to building restrictions and so on. Even when we have had the money and the will, and everything ready to go ahead, we have been prevented. It is rather annoying to be blamed for it when it is not our fault. Therefore, we welcome this new opportunity coming our way, even at great expense to—I was going to say to the Church; but it is really an expense not to the Church, but to the Church people. After all, it is they who have to find the money, in addition to meeting the many other claims upon them, not excluding those for rates and taxes. But they are facing the demands for money gladly and willingly; and that is an earnest of their interest and care for education.
Our concern today is principally about secondary education, and that is the main subject of the debate, even apart from this particular limitation. There, too, I would stress as strongly as I can the need for dealing with the problem of reorganisation of schools which include children of all ages up to 15. I am thankful to say that in the Church schools this reorganisation has gone ahead more quickly, I believe, than in any other group

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of schools—more quickly even than the county schools—because we have determined that in the interests of the children themselves we must not stand out against reorganisation, even though it means that the children are taken away from Church schools and have to go to county schools. The value of the Churches in the world of education is recognised, and I think fully recognised, in the White Paper, and we gladly accept that responsibility and the cost which it involves.
Nevertheless, it would be a mistake to suppose (again I speak only for the Church of England, because it is here alone that I can speak with knowledge) that the Church of England is concerned only with its own schools. There are Church schools, and obviously we are keen on them and take a lot of trouble and care about them. But we are not concerned only with our own Church schools: we are interested in the education of all children in all schools. The special contribution which the Churches can make may very likely be along the line of what is called religious education, which the country has decided should be the basis of all our national education. But true religious education is not just one subject alongside a whole lot of others: it is something which should provide the background of all learning and of all living in the schools.
The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, referred to the change from the
old vituperation between the political Parties about education. I am glad to be able to say much the same about the old religious controversies. I think they have now practically disappeared. The old partisanship between the denominations has given place to co-operation. We work together in the interests of education, and the same is true of co-operation with the teachers and with the education authorities. I can speak from experience of the close co-operation between our Diocesan Education Committee and with the National Union of Teachers, and also with the local education authorities. During the twelve years which I have been a Bishop, the whole tone and form has changed, and for that we are profoundly thankful.
I think the greatest contribution the Churches can make in all this is in the domain of teachers. After all, teachers
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are the most essential part of education. You may have excellent buildings and all sorts of material, but if you have not got good teachers, buildings and material are worthless. On the other hand, you may have poor buildings and poor materials, but a good teacher will make something of them. A good teacher is the real essential of education. I think the Churches have a tremendous opportunity to make a contribution in this respect, first of all, by looking out for good boys and girls who can be encouraged to find a vocation in teaching. We do not want them to come in because it affords them a living but because they have a real vocation for teaching. Again I can speak only from knowledge of the Church of England. We are trying to foster these vocations in boys and girls, to try to get our best boys and girls to see in education an opportunity for service not only to the Church but also to the community, and I believe that that is a contribution to education which the Churches can make and which is of the greatest value.
That brings me to the Church training colleges. Again we are interested in them from the point of view of the provision of teachers. We believe that teachers gain something from a Church training college which inevitably they lack if they are trained not in the atmosphere of the Church training college—I am not speaking only of Church of England training colleges, but any church training college which has quite deliberately and by set purpose a religious background. I believe that, because the teachers training there get that opportunity to see their future work in the light of a vocation, which perhaps could not be provided in any other way. So the Church of England, at any rate, welcomes the invitation that has been extended to it to take its full share in the extension of training colleges.
It is going to cost us a lot of money. Only at the beginning of this month the matter came before the Church Assembly. I confess that I expected a rather acrimonious debate with a lot of division of opinion and people saying, "You cannot do it; it costs too much". Only one speaker was against the proposition that we must go ahead, and only one person voted against the motion that we should

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go ahead. It was passed not with acclamation but rather with a steady determination that here is a job which we are asked to do and which we cannot avoid doing, because we have that responsibility to the children and to the nation. So we are planning to increase our training of teachers so that something not much short of 8,000 teachers will be trained in the Church training colleges.
In connection with training colleges, I think that even more important than teachers in schools are the teachers in training colleges. After all, they have to train the teachers. We ought to have the best people we can get to staff the training colleges. I am interested in one of the Church training colleges, and we set ourselves to try to get the best people to undertake this task and see it as a vocation of training teachers. The Church is doing its best to win teachers and to find the best people to train these teachers, because it regards it as an essential contribution to the work of education and of bringing up children, in the interests of the children themselves, of the nation and ultimately of the whole Christian community. Again I should like at the end to say how wholeheartedly the Church welcomes this opportunity to go ahead in this great work of education. It faces the costly demands in good heart, with the determination to play its part to the full as a partner of the State in the whole field of education.
I do not think it is for me to say much, if anything, about the particular points that were specially stressed in connection with this Motion—comprehensive schools and the 11-plus examination. So far as I know, the Church of England, as such, has expressed no opinion on either subject; certainly I have not been informed of it. I can therefore speak only as an individual. I have always been very unhappy about the 11-plus examination. I spend most of my life dealing with undergraduates and I have learned that even then some of them have not developed. I can tell stories of undergraduates who came up completely undeveloped and who in their three years at the university have completely changed round. There is one of them, a Member of another place, who started by general consent as the biggest "dud" of his year. He is now knighted.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Has he improved or gone down?
THE LORD BISHOP OF RIPON: He has improved, even been knighted. The age of 11 is far too early to try to assess the future of the child. Personally, I am very doubtful about examinations at that stage. I believe a system could be found in which most children could, so to speak, settle themselves straight away. It is obvious that 25 per cent. belong to one stream and 25 per cent. to another. In between are the 50 per cent. about whom some decision has to be reached. I believe that some decision can be reached, without examination, by the combined efforts of teachers, parents and, I should say, vicars or ministers of religion who know the children. Without examination, I believe the decision could be made as to which, at that stage, was probably the best line of development for that particular child.
As for the comprehensive school, I have an open mind about it. I do not think we know enough yet. Certainly I do not feel I could commit myself to saying that the comprehensive school was the only solution. I am sure it is not. But until it has gone through a full period and has reached the stage where it has a considerable sixth form and we can see how they get on at university, I doubt whether we are in a position to say whether it meets the needs or not. I am perfectly sure that the modern school is, in the eyes of people generally and in itself, rising fast to a higher status. I know a number of modern schools which started with the feeling that they were very much second best but which now are proud of themselves. The pupils are proud of belonging to the school. It has taken ten years. Of course it takes a considerable time to develop that state of mind, but it is growing, and the last thing I should want to do would be to pull up these modern schools by their roots and put something in their place, just when they are beginning to grow. Therefore on that particular point my personal opinion is, let the comprehensive school be one of a number of experiments—they are all experiments for quite a number of years yet—but go on searching for something to take the place of the 11-plus examination.
5.28 p.m.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the right reverend Prelate. He speaks in a spirit of thankfulness about the prospect before the Churches. He excels me, of course, in faith and hope and charity. I have an open mind as to what the prospect at the present time is for the Churches. Negotiations are in progress. I have no reason to think that they are doing particularly well or particularly badly. I am not going to pursue that topic far this afternoon. I would only say that those who believe—of course the right reverend Prelate does; certainly the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, does, and most noble Lords do—in religious education would agree that parents should have the right to decide on the religious character of the school to which their children should go. That cannot be carried past a certain point. I live, for example, in a village which is not within six miles of a Church of my own community. It is obviously impossible for me to say I must have a school on my doorstep. There must be exceptions. But, by and large, I think the House would agree that parents are entitled to send their children to schools of their own religious choosing.
The question of course arises: who are going to pay and how much are they going to pay? I believe it was Sir Michael Sadleir who once said: "Denominational education is not something unhealthy which merits a fine". You either agree or disagree. In England it is subject to a fine, as it is not subject in Scotland or Southern Ireland, to name two neighbouring communities. As I say, I am not going to pursue that subject this afternoon, except to say that I hope that far more justice will be obtained from these negotiations for the Churches, and particularly for denominational education than has ever come our way in the past.
Turning to the debate, I think we all must have been impressed with the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who always speaks very well, and deeply interested in all that the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, had to say. We respect the courage with which he struggled against what was once termed in my own case "post-influenzal debility and depression." I felt that he was struggling against this with his usual heroism, and far be it
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from me to add to any difficulties of that character. We know that he was a very promising Minister of Education. We cannot say more, because he was swept away to what was, in my opinion, a less exalted task, although in a political sense it was promotion; but I know that the educational profession regretted his going very widely and very deeply. Perhaps in the fullness of time the noble Viscount will become so powerful in his Party that he will be able to insist on returning. There may not be very long before the next Election, and after that it is possible that there will be no position available for him. However, we salute him as a man with his heart in education.
I should like to try to look at this matter in a slightly different manner. I would outline, in the first place, what is the long-term goal; secondly, the speed at which we should achieve or proceed towards that long-term goal; and thirdly, the problems of the interim which will be the problems that most of us who are speaking will have to deal with, at any rate during our working lives in politics. As regards the long-term goal, since the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, invited us to think afresh—Lord Ogmore, who will wind up for us, will no doubt answer his appeal in a cogent way—I would ask him to think a little more about that problem with which I ventured to interrupt him while he was speaking. I do not believe we can discuss education without asking ourselves what is the kind of education which we think is the best available or likely to become available.
Almost all Members of this House, if they have the opportunity, send their sons to public schools and their daughters to the equivalent. That is simply a fact. I think it odd therefore, when we are discussing what is the ideal education for the whole community, to fail to ask or avoid asking what children would do at a public school. I am not going to divert the debate very far, but I interrupted and I put that kind of point to the noble Viscount. He said that he had been to only one public school, and that as he had been Minister of Education for eight months he knew far more about the schools of the country than he knew about public schools. That seems to me strange, because most of us have had dealings in various ways with various public schools. Be that as it may, when

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I talk about an ideal and practical education for the children of this country, looking a long way ahead, I must say that I should start by assuming that we were going to try to provide for the great masses of the children the kind of education that we now seek for our own children when we can afford it.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, does that mean (a) a boarding education, and (b) an education in which Latin and Greek form the principal items in the curriculum? If the noble Lord does not mean that, I am not quite sure what he does mean.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I hope to approach my point rather more rapidly and briefly than the noble Viscount, who spent more than twenty minutes remarking upon his experiences as Minister of Education—an opportunity which I hope he will be able to take up again many times in the future. But I hope to speak rather more clearly and sharply than the noble Viscount and to give art answer in rather less than an hour. I hope that we should provide an education for the masses of this country as good as is provided in public schools. That ideal is not going to be realised to-morrow. Whether the noble Viscount thinks that Greek should play a large part in it is something which we must learn from him. As to Latin, I should like to see the vast majority of children in this country learn Latin. I will not pursue this topic at any length. As regards boarding schools, I should think the answer is "No". But there are many leading public schools which are day schools. I do not think that that issue need cause anybody very much trouble.
I ask the noble Viscount seriously this question—I have asked it more than once. He says that normal children are best educated away from the academically gifted. That is what I understood him to say. That is certainly not the case in public: schools. Is he going to separate them in the schools, or what is going to be done about normal children? I look opposite and around me. The noble Viscount is academically gifted. He was the most gifted boy at Eton. But he would have had me separated from him at school. I should not be anxious to be separated from the noble Viscount. I should probably have had to do
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carpentry or something at the age of 11, which would have been monstrous to me.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: The noble Lord was separated from me at Eton. He did not have the advantage of sharing my company in college, and if he had been taught carpentry I think it would have given him something which would have improved him a good deal.
LORD PAKENHAM: I think that the use of the saw should not be contemplated in a debate of this kind. I would rather rely on the dialectics of our old school or college. But I would say seriously that what I have said makes nonsense of the whole idea of separating the normal from the academically gifted. Our own experience reveals that as an absurdity. One reason why the noble Viscount rather welcomed this idea is that he has been taught by the Ministry of Education that there is no hope of giving most children an education of this quality. We on this side believe that we can achieve this object for the great mass of children, although it will take a long time.
Let me look at the principles of what I would call an ideal solution. It is going to take time. First of all we here postulate as the first principle that there must be equality of educational opportunity. That is the alpha and omega of the educational policy of the Labour Party. The noble Viscount has put all sorts of questions to us, and when he winds up perhaps he will tell us whether his plan is equality of educational opportunity. Every child who comes into this world—and there are limits to what local authorities can do—should have as good an opportunity as those who go to Eton to-day. The Party opposite either hold those aspirations or they do not. This will not happen tomorrow, and it will not be achieved if you do not hold it. There should be compulsory education for all up to the age of 17 or 18. In the United States education is compulsory to 17. I do not know whether the noble Viscount is going to provide compulsory education to that age eventually—it will not come in the next year or two; it will not come in five years; it may take more than ten. But if you seriously believe that all children should be given opportunities equal to the best, you must make education compulsory up to that age.

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Then, finally, there should be no segregation according to income or class or, broadly speaking, ability. I bring in the public schools as an example. Noble Lords' children are not segregated there. They all go to the public school and there would be uproar if some noble Lords' children were adjudged too ignorant to go to Eton—I leave out the Common Entrance Examination, which we know is the test which all noble Lords' sons would pass most readily.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: That is very much harder than the 11-plus. The noble Lord says that the Common Entrance Examination is taken on entry to the principal public schools. It is much more difficult to get through than the 11-plus examination.
LORD PAKENHAM: I must say that I think that that is quite the most nonsensical answer I have heard from the noble Viscount. Unlike most noble Lords, I have taught in an elementary school. I taught pupils from the age of eleven. The great majority of children in this country from the age of eleven do not learn Latin or French, so you cannot compare an examination in which Latin and French are included with one in which most of the children would not have studied the subjects. And there is no comparison, as he says, between 11 and 13; so that his intervention was hardly what one would expect an ex-Minister to use.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: If I may interrupt the noble Lord—
LORD PAKENHAM: My I just finish the sentence? I think I give way as readily as anyone, but the noble Viscount is so quick on his feet to-day.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I certainly do not wish to interrupt the noble Lord, but when he calls remarks "nonsensical" he must expect an intervention to be made. The fact of the matter is, of course, that whatever may be said—and one can draw what inference one likes—the standard of entrance into the principal public schools which the noble Lord has mentioned by name is at least as high and difficult to attain as that to the most selective of the grammar schools; and any statement to the contrary bears no relation whatever to the fact.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I am sorry to contradict the noble and learned Viscount, but I suppose I am temporarily in possession of the House—at any rate, until his next intervention—and I know he will speak for an hour or so later to-night, when I am afraid I shall have departed. But I must put it plainly to the noble Viscount that while the average child of a professional man can easily get into a public school to-day, the average child of a working man cannot get into a grammar school. If that is not putting it plainly, then I am really short of words and I had better stick to carpentry. That is the simple fact which I believe most of the House has mastered by this time.
When, therefore, we look to the future, whether we call it ten years ahead or the future generally, of educational equality for all, I am sure that we shall see a system of comprehensive schools—comprehensive in the sense that public schools are comprehensive; and I believe we shall all agree that the public schools are comprehensive—which will cater for keen people of all kinds of ability, except the very bottom, the abnormal, in whom, as it happens, I am very much interested.
As regards size, I do not think one should be dogmatic. Eton used to have 1,000 and now has more than 1,100. Winchester has 520, and Ampleforth, with a junior school, more than 600. I have been recently to the school of the noble Lord. Lord Ogmore, a particularly fine public school, Mill Hill, with 450, where they are doing very good work. I do not think we can say that the figure for any of those particular schools or that for Manchester Grammar School or any other, is the ideal figure. Equally, one cannot say necessarily that the figure of a famous comprehensive school which I visited, with the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and which has 2,000, is necessarily wrong, although I should think that on educational grounds it is becoming very large.
I do not believe, however, that it is the size of the school that is important, or at any rate is of prime importance, although of course there must be a limit. What matters is the size of the classes, and naturally I follow what was said by the noble and learned Viscount. He is as keen as anybody on reducing classes, and on getting now buildings and the right number of teachers. That is the second question: bow fast do we move

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towards the ideal? That, in turn, is a question of what resources we use and how much of our national income we are prepared to set apart. I hope that I was not impertinent to the noble and learned Viscount just now, but I must give him credit in that he was most anxious to proceed as fast as possible; but in fact we have not, as a country, proceeded very fast towards the ideal. After ninety years of elementary education we have made very slow progress. I am net one of those who spend time saying hew wonderful our system is: I prefer to take the other view, and to say how little progress we have really made in relation to what might have been done, and how much remains to be done.
I am not saying which Party would move faster. I should have thought the Liberal Party might have moved fast, but, in fact, they have nobody here to take part in this debate. I sympathise with the Liberals; I feel that they have suffered a great injustice in having no Life Peers. I do not know why that injustice was inflicted upon them, but they must not be too discouraged, and I hope that perhaps in time Lady Violet Bonham-Carter or someone else will come and that we shall be able to hear from them on some other occasion. I shall not say that one Party is keener on education than another. I have my opinion but I will not say. However, I will offer this opinion—and the noble Viscount is entitled to disagree with me, though I do not think one would find any average man outside politics who would disagree about this. I believe that the Labour Party in office would always spend more money on education than a Conservative Party would. Whether or not the noble and learned Viscount agrees with that I am afraid I do not know; and whether we should spend more wisely is, of course, a matter which could be long debated. But no noble Lord will seriously deny that that is how most people would think of it. It might he thought that a Conservative Government would be more prudent and less economical—
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord—
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, perhaps I may finish the sentence. I am simply offering an opinion and leaving it there. I will not speak for half as
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long a time as the noble and learned Viscount spoke, unless, of course, he interrupts me many more times. It is my opinion that the Labour Party would spend a good deal more money a good deal faster.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, will the noble Lord forgive me for interrupting? If he expects to continue his forensic activities in such a way, he must expect to be interrupted. I am not seeking to make any Party point here, although he was. The fact is that we are now spending on education more than twice the sum that the Labour Party spent in its last term of office, and there has never been a period of time, so far as I know, in which a Conservative Government has not spent more than its predecessors.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount is not the only person who has these figures in mind, although he has not mentioned them. At the end of our time we were spending £279 million nationally, and now the figure is £613 million, so I am keeping abreast of the noble and learned Lord's thoughts. But if he will look at the figures he will see that that is due to well-known facts which have occurred in the meantime and have nothing to do with Party politics. He is the first person to make a Party point of that.
Passing from the question of the speed at which we shall progress, we are left with the problem of transition, which is really the practical issue which my noble friend, Lord Silkin, has raised to-day in such a sage fashion. In the period of ten years, or longer, we are faced with the fact that some schools are very much better, according to public esteem, than others. There is no parity of esteem whatsoever. To mention one point, the teacher—pupil ratio tends to be different between different classes of school, but everyone knows that if one has money, one usually sends one's son to a public school. If one cannot do that, one finds a school which approximates as nearly as possible to a public school; and if one can get the child to a grammar school, one sends him there. That may, to some extent, be snobbery but not entirely, because the facilities in expensive schools tend to be better and more extensive than in the schools which the majority of children have to attend.

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The problem therefore arises: how are we to select the children from the poorer classes to be given the better facilities? That is the problem to which my noble friend Lord Silkin has addressed himself. He has come down unhesitatingly against the 11-plus. I would summarise my own views which are identical with those of my noble friend. I would say that the 11-plus is now utterly discredited, because of, first, the strain that it imposes on children as they approach the examination; second, the fallibility of the test in regard to a child's capacity at that age, and still more later; and third, the social evils of separating the "sheep and the goats." My noble friend developed that aspect more fully, but that really puts the three major objections.
The noble and learned Viscount became very hot at this point in his speech and began using the word "fraud" and then something else which was worse than fraud. I could not follow all the crimes, and I am not quite certain whether they were attributed to my Party or to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin; or whether they were hypothetical offences which people on these Benches might have felt like committing unless warned. I am not really sure into which category they fell. At any rate, we are not, I hope, committing those particular offences. I share the view of my noble friend—and surely it was his view—that the 11-plus is utterly discredited.
Then the question arises: how are we to ensure, while so many children—in fact the majority—are going to schools which are not the best in the county, and while the majority will leave at the age of 15, that a proper opportunity is given to the abler children who are brought up among the masses? The comprehensive school is obviously the simple answer; I am not going to say it is the only answer; I am not going to say that any particular size is dictated. Obviously to-day when so many children leave school at the age of 15 we need a larger school in order to get adequate sixth forms that will be needed later on. So I do not think there is any sealed pattern. As regards that point, as regards the sealed pattern and how much opportunity we are going to offer, my noble friend Lord Ogmore will, I am sure, answer the noble Viscount satisfactorily.
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I will not deal with other methods of getting round the problem. I have said that the comprehensive school is the simple answer, but I should like to say finally one word from a specifically Roman Catholic angle. I have previously spoken as I do not know what—as someone whom the noble Viscount referred to as an old friend the other day, and I should like to speak most timidly in that capacity, but also as someone who has had a varied experience of education in all sorts of different ways. As I say, I should like to say finally one word specifically from the Roman Catholic angle. As the Lord Bishop said just now, the Church of England have not, I gather, taken up any definite black and white attitude to comprehensive schools; and the same is true as far as concerns the Catholic body. The Roman Catholic body has not intervened in this discussion, because there is nothing in the proposals for comprehensive schools which is in principle opposed to Catholic thought. There is, indeed, one Roman Catholic comprehensive school already, and it is hoped soon to establish another; and this is not an issue where the Roman Catholic Church offers positive guidance to the members of its Communion.
There are, from a Roman Catholic point of view, certain advantages in comprehensive schools and certain disadvantages. On the credit side there is the fact that the foundation of a comprehensive school may be the only practicable way of giving Catholic children of the necessary ability and aptitude the opportunity of a grammar school or technical education in a Catholic school, as their numbers in any area may be too small to justify the building of a separate Catholic technical or grammar school. That is important. As the law stands or as it is administered to-day there is a feature of the issue which may not give Catholics absolute justice. To-day it is possible that where the 11-plus selection test is abolished new Catholic comprehensive schools will qualify for displaced pupils' grant under the Education Acts as they now stand, while a separate grammar or technical school would not do so. That is as the law stands at present. That advantage would disappear if there were a settlement on the lines which would be completely welcome to the Catholic community.

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On the other hand, if the comprehensive school were made the only form of secondary education, nationally or in any particular locality, the existence of those Catholic voluntary grammar schools, which are already in being and doing good work would be inevitably jeopardised. Since comprehensive schools must, in order to be efficient, be fairly large, it will happen in many areas that there will not be sufficient Catholic children for a Catholic comprehensive school, though there may well be enough for a satisfactory modern school. The result would be, if none other than comprehensive schools are allowed in such areas, that the Catholic children would be deprived of a secondary education in a Catholic school. Those are the dangers, as the others are the advantages, and I am putting on record those aspects of the matter from a specifically Roman Catholic point of view.
By and large I am sympathetic to comprehensive schools. I am glad that my noble friend Lord Silkin met what I think was the feeling of the noble Viscount in many important respects. My noble friend Lord Silkin made it plain that there was going to be very little coercion in this matter. I think there are very important educational values which are embodied in existing grammar schools and those simply cannot be cast aside as though they were of no worth. By and large I would say that a comprehensive school offers a large part of the answer. The subject bristles with all sorts of complications when you try to apply it in any particular area. But I hope and believe that the programme set out by the Labour Party will be pursued, not with political fanaticism but with flexibility and educational devotion; and I certainly echo the hope of the noble Viscount—to whom I may have been less than courteous, for which I apologise—that this great question will be settled on educational grounds.
5.55 p.m.
LORD ROCHESTER: My Lords, I hope I shall be forgiven and that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in particular will forgive me if I, whilst adhering to the general subject in the debate, do not follow him in confining my remarks to the question of selection at 11-plus and to the comprehensive system of education. I did not know until I heard his opening remarks that he wished to make his Motion quite so exclusive; and it seems
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to me that we have spread a little, certainly, from that Motion already.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, may I, in fairness to myself, explain that I altered the terms of the Motion to its present form about three weeks ago.
LORD ROCHESTER: My Lords, I understood that, but, at the same time, I did not realise that in changing the Motion the noble Lord wished to exclude other aspects of the matter. My position is simply this. I have one point to make and it need not detain your Lordships for long. I spent some time in preparing what I hoped to say and I should like to unburden myself of it. I shall take it, in the absence of cries of "Order!", "Withdraw!" or "Sit down!" or whatever noble Lords say on these occasions, that your Lordships indicate consent and I shall proceed accordingly.
I should apologise for daring to speak. I do not speak as an educationalist, but as one in the front line of industry; and my contribution, therefore, to your Lordships' discussion concerns the point at which secondary education ends and employment begins—namely, the school-leaving age. From a study of the Government's White Paper and the Labour Party's policy document on education, it is apparent that on this point of the school-leaving age both Parties are agreed upon the need to encourage children to stay longer at school. So far, so good. But beyond that point there are differences. As a comparative newcomer to your Lordships' House I have not yet felt able to identify myself with any Party. Maybe it is for this reason that I do not have the same degree of confidence in the next Election that noble Lords on each side of the House appear to share in equal measure. As Cross Benchers we must reckon with the possibility that any one of three political Parties may be returned to power and, for all I know, it may be the Labour Party.
As I understand it, what the Labour Party say is that, since it will not be practicable immediately to raise the school-leaving age to 16, if they regain power they will make it compulsory for a child to stay at school until the end of the academic year instead, as at present, of the school term in which the child reaches the age of 15. If I apprehend the position correctly, they say that in

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the matter of apprentices they have consulted the trade unions and that if industry objects it should understand that it is in the best interests of industry that the children do get or should get the best possible education. Speaking on these facts and in no partisan spirit, I suggest that this is not the best way in which to approach the matter. In the first place, the employment of these young people, and particularly their training as apprentices, should surely be regarded just as much a part of their education as that which they receive at school. Secondly, I should have thought that before prescribing such a radical change in the arrangements under which children now leave school the first step would have been to see whether in practice industry could absorb them all at any one time each year instead of three times, as at present.
If your Lordships will allow me to do so, I should like to show how, if the Labour Party insist on effecting this change, it may in some cases be not in the best interests of industry or, indeed, of the children themselves. In the debate in this House on the Address in reply to the gracious Speech at the beginning of the present Session, the noble Lord, Lord McCorquodale of Newton, spoke as chairman of the Industrial Training Council. Your Lordships will recall that this Council was set up in response to a recommendation of the Carr Committee, which was itself appointed in 1956:
"to consider the arrangements for the training of young workers in industry, with particular reference to the adequacy of intake into apprenticeship and other forms of training, in the light of the expected increase in the number of young persons entering employment and the need to ensure an adequate supply of trained workers for future needs."
The Industrial Training Council includes representatives of employers, trade unions, and the nationalised industries, and on the occasion to which I have referred Lord McCorquodale of Newton appealed to industry to take advantage of the so-called bulge in the number of school-leavers by taking on 50 per cent. more apprentices whilst that period lasted. In the particular part of industry in which I myself am engaged we had already determined to do just that. In our case, it means that within a few years, in a unit where some 1,000 engineering craftsmen
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are employed, there will have to be one apprentice for every two craftsmen, instead of the present maximum figure of one apprentice for every three craftsmen.
In tackling this problem we have sought—and, what is more important, we have already obtained—the co-operation of two of the largest engineering unions in this country. If I may do so respectfully, I should like to take this opportunity of paying tribute in your Lordships' House to these unions for having responded in this way, particularly in circumstances where there is more unemployment than at almost any time in the last twenty years. Those of your Lordships who read the leading article in The Times on, I think, Monday of last week may well have drawn the conclusion that industry was doing nothing at all in this field; and I do not pretend that the example I have quoted is in any way representative of what is happening in the country as a whole. Indeed, one of my purposes in mentioning it is to show what can be done in industry, in the hope that it may encourage others to do the same. There may be an opportunity for further discussion of this problem in the debate on unemployment which is, I believe, to take place in this House in two weeks' time. It is a difficult question, and I notice that some reference was made to it in another place only yesterday. For the moment, I am concerned mainly with a particular aspect of the matter.
Without wearying your Lordships with detail, I would say that the means by which we hope to employ these additional apprentices in such a way that there will be no deterioration in the quality of their training is by taking school-leavers into our training establishments three times each year instead of twice as at present. If, at the very moment when we are ready, with the backing of the trade unions, to embark on this project, we find that, instead of being able to add to the number of occasions we can take on these boys, we have actually to reduce them to only one occasion each year, then, far from the boys' technical education being furthered, the very serious problem with which we are going to be confronted in the next few years, of finding suitable employment for them all, will become even more difficult to solve. To some extent, presumably, the same situation will arise in

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what may prove the even bigger problem of finding suitable jobs for children who cannot be trained for these skilled operations. Already it is apparent that there are substantial numbers of children who left school at the end of last year who have not yet been able to start work—and there will surely be general agreement that there Is no section of the population for whom prolonged unemployment would be more demoralising than the young people.
Now, I think that there may be ways in which the Labour Party, without departing from the underlying aim they have in mind, could meet the requirements of industry in this respect. For example, it might be possible to devise means whereby, if a firm has adequate facilities to offer, boys accepted for employment by that firm could still be permitted to leave school at any time after they reach the age of 15. I know, of course, that, from the comparatively narrow point of view of secondary education alone, there is a great deal to be said for the early introduction of what is called the four-year course. It may even be that there are so many things to be said in its favour that they outweigh everything else, including the practical considerations I have mentioned. I would certainly not have the impertinence to assert the contrary view. What I will say is this: the problem of finding suitable employment for young people in the next few years—and this concerns industry at least as much as secondary schools—is much too important to this country to be handled without the closest consultation not only with trade unions, but also with employers.
I had hoped that, when the noble Lord who is to wind up for the Opposition came to speak, he might have been able to reassure us, at least to the extent of indicating that his Party recognise the need for prior consultation on this point with employers. It may be that, in deference to the remarks with which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, opened this debate, and to the general course which it has taken, that is too much for me to expect on this occasion. If that is so, then I would ask noble Lords on the Opposition Front Bench if they would consider this matter carefully within, perhaps, the next few days, and I hope that they will be able to give that reassurance when the time comes for us to debate un-
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employment in two weeks' time. I hope also that your Lordships will understand that, in deliberately shifting the emphasis of this debate for a few minutes from the particular matters of selection at the age of 11-plus and from the comprehensive system of education, I have done so because it seems to me that the point I have tried to make is of considerable consequence in discussing secondary education as a whole, and that this is the time to say so.
6.9 p.m.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, as I listened to the rosy picture, drawn by the noble Viscount opposite, of the opportunities that are afforded in secondary modern schools, I could not help regretting for a new reason my present advanced age and looking with envy at those Members of your Lordships' House who, if they are not themselves able to enjoy these advantages, may at least hope that, with great economy to themselves, their children may enjoy them rather than the similar opportunities of comprehensive education provided in the institution which has been referred to to-day that lies under the shadow of Windsor Castle.
This view, that the varying kinds of secondary education that are provided in our present system are different but, nevertheless, of equal value and should be held in equal esteem, has run right through the development of our present structure. May I ask noble Lords to cast their minds back to the Hadow Report of 1926 which first initiated at a quasi-official level the remarkable doctrine not only that children at the age of 11 have different interests and abilities—indeed these are apparent long before 11—but that the differences by that age are sufficient to make it possible and desirable, and I quote from the Report,
"to cater for them by means of schools of varying types but which nevertheless have a common foundation."
I think it is significant that the Hadow Committee did not argue at all the case on which this remarkable conclusion is founded, although they did make reference in the preceding sentence to what they described as the psychologists' argument.
It is also significant that in the whole development of this subject emphasis has continually been laid, as it has by the noble Lord this evening, on the fact that

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though the facilities in different types of schools are different they must be regarded as though set in the horizontal and not the vertical frame. The Hadow Committee, for instance, spoke of the secondary stage providing a hopeful and critical stage in the educational life of the child in a school environment specially organised to assist it. It spoke, too, of the educational system being an organic whole. It dropped the word "elementary" and substituted "primary" because "elementary" was a term social in origin and referred to education of a particular class of child rather than to a particular stage of education. It spoke hopefully of the forces of unification and of the anticipated breakdown of artificial barriers in the educational system. I think it is also of some importance that the Hadow Committee emphasised that if different types of education provided in different schools were to be effective,
"there must be reasonable probability that the majority of those starting will go forward to complete it. The relating of the age to the curriculum is simply a matter of educational convenience".
These were the views in 1926.
Twelve years later the Spens Report, concerned primarily with grammar schools, reported on much the same theme. The Spens Report observed that the operations of the past twelve years had shown a fundamental need for parity—and the word appears here for the first time—among all schools of the secondary stage. They repeated, too, the view expressed by their predecessors, that parity would not be achieved unless the same minimum leaving age obtained in all the different types of schools. The Norwood Committee in 1943 were chiefly responsible for translating the notion of multilateral education into the notion of tripartite education. I, for one, am very glad to hear this evening that although it was said by many education authorities at the time that the Norwood Committee lifted tripartism from a proposal into a doctrine, the noble Viscount opposite has hastened to extricate himself from the shackles of that doctrine.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I hope that I was never shackled at all.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: I am delighted to hear it. No psychological evidence was given in support. Perhaps doctrine and psychology are not
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compatible. It was stated that the nature of tripartite education of children at 11 was observation based on general educational experience. Similarly, at the passing of the Butler Act the then Minister of Education spoke again of equal opportunities in all forms of education. It is, I think, significant that the Act itself, although it provides for secondary education for all, indicated neither a tripartite nor a bipartite nor a quadripartite division: it left the field completely open. And what has happened since?
Before we consider what has happened since, I should like to call your Lordships' attention to one warning which followed very quickly after the passing of the Butler Act. It came from The Times Educational Supplement, which does not in general associate itself with the views of the noble Lords on this side of the House. On December 15, 1945, The Times Educational Supplement said:
"No greater mistake could overcome a new order in English education than that there should be established within it different grades of secondary schools, and that is inevitably what different types of schools with different leaving ages would become; different grades of schools with different exit ramps leading to different exclusive levels of adult society."
That is exactly what has happened. Clearly, something has gone wrong.
Notwithstanding this continued reiteration of the parity of opportunity in the detailed discussion given by the noble Viscount this afternoon, neither the parents nor the children are convinced. Eleven-plus now broods like a monster over every home in England in which there is a child aged from 10 to 11 or between the ages of 7 and 11. It has come to such a pass that even the Ministry of Education, in a Committee on Maladjusted Children, have commented on the nervous exhaustion and tension caused by the 11-plus examination, and have indicated that this is to be reckoned among the causes of maladjustment, in the technical sense, in children. Something clearly has gone wrong. It is odd that in fifteen years it has been impossible to convince the parents and the children of this country that the arrangement of our educational system is not a vertical hierarchy but a series of horizontal choices.
The parents and children of this country have a certain amount of horse sense.

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They invariably think secondary modern education is inferior, although primarily because grammar school is demonstrably he avenue that leads to the better paid jobs; an avenue that leads to the universities, and from the universities to the various professional callings and, possibly, higher salaries than those for which no academic qualification is required. They think that it is an inferior education because they observe that the pupil—teacher ratio is perceptibly higher, nearly 20 per cent., in the secondary modern than in the grammar school, let alone in the independent public school.
If the varied education was to achieve its object—namely, different leaving ages in different schools—that one condition has been consistently realised. In secondary modern schools 90 per cent. of children leave at the earliest possible moment, at the age 15—that is what they think of these opportunities. In the grammar schools something of the order of 40 per cent. more remain after the age of 16, and the common leaving age, the year at which most children leave the grammar school, is 16. If, after all this, the secondary modern products are in any doubt that they are second-class citizens they will occasionally be forcibly reminded of it, as when a few years ago (I do not know if the practice still continues) the Council for World Education and Citizenship, in announcing its annual meeting at the Central Hall, Westminster, for schoolchildren, put into the notice that the meetings were for grammar school children and that applications from secondary modern school children could not be entertained. If they are second-class citizens, clearly they must remain so, since they were precluded from taking part in the discussions of the Council for World Education and Citizenship. So I think we might agree that there is something to be said for the view of the parents of children in this country.
A few directors of education, brought up on the pure milk of the doctrine, hold up their hands in horror if one speaks of "passing" the 11-plus examination, since where an examination offers equal opportunities in all directions there can be no difference between passing and failure. It is significant that that has now become firmly established in the idiom of this country; in fact, I think I heard the noble Viscount, Lord
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Hailsham, fall into—is it the heresy of speaking of passing (I do not mean in his own career) the 11-plus examination?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I think the noble Baroness is wrong. I spoke in quotation marks, I hope, at least, in my voice, and said that I deplored the use of it by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: I am delighted to recognise the quotation marks.
Much has been said this evening about the educational selection, and I do not want to elaborate on it further, except to make one or two points. From the report on early leaving that was made two or three years ago it appeared that something like 40 per cent. of the children who get to the grammar school on the 11-plus examination leave or fail to obtain General Certificate of Education in as many as three subjects. These, I suppose, are the teenagers to whom the noble Viscount referred, and who do not take kindly to academic education; and for that indeed I do not blame them—it may be that they show their wisdom and judgment in departing. But it does seem a very odd thing that, in a state of affairs where, as the noble Viscount has said, there are such terrible shortfalls in all directions—shortfalls of buildings and shortfalls of teachers—we should continue with a selection which causes our most highly qualified teachers to waste their labours at schools at which 40 per cent. of the children will not complete the course for which they have entered. It is a matter of regret to me that an engagement which preceded the change of date of this debate will prevent my hearing in person the noble Viscount's reply, but I hope that he w ill deal with this, to the layman, astonishingly wasteful view of scarce resources.
The selection seems to be wrong all the way round: it fills the grammar schools with children who cannot take it, and at the same time it has been repeatedly shown in Bournemouth, Halifax, Essex and Southampton that at least the cream of the secondary moderns is able to do as well, judged by the normal tests, as the products of the grammar schools. In fact, I think it has been shown that, of those who succeed in passing the G.C.E. in at least three subjects, almost as many
successes are scored by candidates who come from the secondary
modern schools

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as by those who come from grammar schools. The figures are about 59 per cent. from the secondary moderns and 61 per cent. from the grammar schools. The selection, therefore, if there must be selection, seems to be very much of a hit and miss—and I would say a wasteful affair.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: The noble Baroness will, I hope, forgive me for interrupting, but she has quoted a statistic to which I attach great importance. I should have thought that the correct inference to be drawn from it is that secondary modern schools are providing a course which procures these passes, and therefore a course which is to be welcomed and praised, and not condemned and destroyed.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: I am grateful to the noble Viscount for the gymnastic exercise he has given me in rising and sitting. I should have thought that the answer to that was that it is only a small proportion of the children in secondary modern schools, in view of the nature of their courses, who are able to take advantage of these opportunities. I do not say that discrimination is not necessary; discrimination obviously is necessary. But I do suggest that this theory that life either begins or ends, or both, at the age of 11 is an extraordinary bed of Procrustes on which to fix all the children of our nation.
I think that what underlies the mistake that has happened is a common error. It is to confuse discrimination with segregation. It is a mistake that has been made in other contexts. It is perhaps not without significance that about three years ago the medical officer of the Ministry of Education pleaded strongly that educationally sub-normal children should be educated in the same schools with those who are educationally normal, on the ground that they could take part in out-of-school activities and feel themselves to be members of the same community, even though they must have special teaching. What is true at one end of the scale is true also at the other end. It is alt extraordinary educational theory that the gifted child must be segregated from contact with others less well endowed. Later in life he will have perhaps to lead them, and all through life he will certainly have to mix with them. He will, I think,
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be seriously handicapped if in his school years he has been carefully sheltered from contact with any schoolmate of a lower educational calibre than his own.
Undoubtedly there must be discrimination, but do not let us confuse discrimination with segregation. Segregation appears to underlie the White Paper in almost every paragraph. I think we should note that the White Paper speaks not of "varying types of capacity" but of "varying ranges of capacity", thus paying some tribute to the hierarchical conception of our educational structure. It appears, too, from the White Paper, quite frankly, that there must be a substantial element of selection; and the children of England will be cheered when they read that this does not mean that a child's performance at the age of 11 should determine the remainder of his school career once and for all. But alas! when one turns the page one reads that, though there will be transfers from one type of school to another, such transfers can never be anything but exceptions to the normal rule. If I may borrow a phrase from the noble Viscount, if the English language has any meaning surely that means that, for the great majority of children, perhaps, a selection which takes place in the course of their school careers, if not at the age of 11, will determine the remainder of their school careers once and for all.
May I conclude by calling attention to the one exception—and I hope the noble Viscount will deal with this also in his reply: it is a rather half-hearted exception—that the White Paper allows for the comprehensive school. It says:
"A wide range of possibilities is, in fact, open. The Government do not wish to rule out"—
damned with faint praise!—
"experiments with comprehensive or similar schools proposed on genuine educational grounds."
Surprisingly, the two instances in which they are prepared to contemplate these experiments are instances in which no genuine educational reasons are given. Nothing is said about the content of the education, about the quality of the education, or about its suitability to the children who are to receive it, but merely about the facilities which are available or not available in the area in which it is to be given. So it seems (and I hope the noble Viscount will correct me if I

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am wrong) that we are committed by the White Paper to a further definite period of segregation, and it is extraordinarily hard not to read into the phrases that I have quoted that this is segregation viewed not in the terms in which it has been described on the Benches opposite, but in the terms in which it is seen by the parents of this country and by the children, who I know cry all night the night before they take the 11-plus because, as they would say, and I think with a better appreciation of reality, they are afraid of failing it.
6.32 p.m.
THE EARL OF CRAVEN: My Lords, I shall not keep you very long, but I hope I may take the opportunity, if it is in order, to congratulate the noble Baroness on an excellent speech. I can see straight away that she is extremely well educated, far better than I shall ever be. I once remember somebody saying that one can get far more with a pot of honey than a barrel of vinegar. This may be true or it may not. All I can say is that they must have forgotten to feed me on the right sort of stuff when I was young. I think they tried "Cow and Gate" and found that it failed, and what they substituted for it afterwards I do not know.
The whole matter of education, so far as I am concerned, is a complicated one, because I am not, an educationalist and do not profess to be. I might add that some time ago I had a conversation with the noble Viscount in the Library of your Lordships' House. I would not have had that conversation with him had I realised that he was about to go to bed with influenza.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I can assure the noble Lord that it was not cause and effect.
THE EARL OF CRAVEN: I did not have to go to bed anyway. I am a Catholic, like the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham opposite. To-day I am not representing Catholic opinion, and I am putting forward a purely personal point of view in anything that I may say. I should not like this House to think that any remarks of mine would in any way embarrass the Roman Catholic hierarchy The first point I should like to make is that I am a father, a parent. Now there ate many people who have a great deal of anxiety about block grants. They are
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not at all sure how the block grant is going to work, or the amount of trouble it may cause in the future. For instance, in a county which is purely rural, or nearly so, the situation can arise whereby an injustice can be caused because the grant is very low per capita of the population, whereas the rateable value in the county is extremely high. The next point is that with the block grant it may be possible that the denominations are going to get the thin end of the wedge, because in many instances local education authorities naturally will turn more towards the State school and State education than they will towards an independent form of education. This is quite natural and something which is bound to come about. There is a possibility of nothing but injustice in that direction.
There are those who have said that the Government have bitten off a little more than they can chew in this White Paper. Whether that be so or not I do not really know. I am only repeating the problems that the people have raised with me so that we can have some rendering of how it will work out. They say that the expenses involved have not been recognised, and that they will be considerably more than Her Majesty's Government understood or realised.
The next point I want to raise is with regard to the 11-plus problem, but I want to take it up in rather a different way. Many parents have come to me, as a county councillor in East Sussex, whose children have been in a certain catchment area and there is a State school which can receive those children. The parents are told that the children will have to go into that school regardless of whether they pass the 11-plus examination, whereas I believe that the parents should have parental choice. They should be able to send those children wherever they like. That is surely what parental choice means. The travelling fares and a grant to send them there have been withheld because there are places within that catchment area. The whole matter comes down to one fundamental point. One has to consider what one means by "fundamental", and I took the trouble of looking it up in the Oxford Dictionary—I suppose most noble Lords have no need to do anything like that. It says:
"Going to the root of the matter; serving as a base or foundation,"

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It goes on to say:
"Applied to the lowest or root note of a chord."
That is the lowest common denominator. If that is so then, surely, the one thing that really matters in the matter of education is parental choice, because this immediately becomes a fundamental. I think the parents are in danger of becoming confused and not knowing where it is going to lead them—whether they are always going to send their children to the sort of schools to which they would wish to send them.
I should like to read one small passage on parental choice that was written by Pope Plus XII shortly before his death. He said:
"The mission assigned by God to parents of providing for the material and spiritual welfare of their offspring and of giving them a harmonious upbringing animated by a true religious spirit cannot be taken away from them without a great violation of their rights."
It comes back again to the question whether this is going to be taken as a fundamental or not. If it is, you cannot cut any of it out; you have to allow that parent to send his child to wherever he wants to send him. I am not a lawyer, but that is the way I see it as a parent. The loyalties, for instance, that one gets in a school are undivided, because if the parent has the choice to send the child to a certain school then the child's loyalty is not split in any way. All the loyalities are one and there is no difference in religion or in denomination or way of life or anything else. The Englishman's spirit of fair play is well known, and I hope that this point will receive consideration from your Lordships. It is quality and not quantity that we want from our schools, and we should try to foster the British genius of improvisation rather than make it difficult for people to do as they want to do. I will say no more on that. I hope I have given your Lordships something to think about and that you will be able to reach some conclusions on it.
6.42 p.m.
LORD SOM̃ERS: My Lords, I will not keep you long at this time of night, but I should like to say that I, for one, am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for having brought up the question which is the subject of his Motion, though I must confess that I cannot agree
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with a great deal that he said about it. The 11-plus examination has been a subject of great discussion in the teaching world for a long time. I certainly agree that it needs a good deal of revision, and the examination itself probably needs to be presented in a different form; but to look upon it as a crucial point in a child's career, which, if he fails it, may lead to his having a chip on his shoulder for the rest of his life, is in my opinion a grave exaggeration. We have all failed our exams in our times, and I do not think that many of us have borne very heavy chips; we seem to have survived it. I remember that when I was a young music student, when I was an organist, I was going to be obviously one of the foremost organists of the country. But that idea was soon exploded. When I took to composition instead, I was going to be a worthy successor to my revered master, Dr. Vaughan Williams. That idea was also exploded even more quickly. But I do not really think that I bear any great chip on my shoulder because I failed in those things.
I think this question of segregation is a necessary thing. The Almighty, when he created man, certainly did not use mass-production methods. Whether that is a question for regret or thankfulness I think is open to argument, but personally I feel very thankful for it. There is no doubt that some children are very intelligent, some are not, and some are moderately so. Each one is an individual who needs individual treatment. It is no use trying to force a higher type of examination on a child who is by nature not fitted to take it. It is surely going to give the child—to go into the world of psychology once more—a far greater inferiority complex to feel that he is the least progressive in a grammar school than to feel that he is one of the best in a secondary modern. I do not think those who go to secondary moderns and do well in them feel any sense of inferiority complex whatsoever.
I think possibly one of the greatest problems facing our schools to-day is this question of overloaded classes. As I know only too well, from my own experience as a schoolmaster, having to deal with too large a form makes it absolutely impossible to give the individual child the attention which he needs. The question is whether we can do this by getting

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more teachers or, possibly, by eliminating same of those children who are not really mentally fitted to go on to an advanced education. I am all in favour of absolutely equal opportunity for all, but equal opportunity does not necessarily mean equal reward. Everybody should have equal opportunity; and they have it today. My son, if I had one, would have the same chance of getting into a grammar school as the son of our local road-man in our village, if he had one. There is nothing social about it whatsoever, and that, I think, is the paint which has been, if I may say so, exploited rather by those who wish to abolish this segregation.
I should like to read to your Lordships, a couple of paragraphs from an article which came out in the Teachers' World recently by a writer who writes under the name of "Onlooker." It is apropos of segregation. He says:
"A couple of pieces of recent evidence support the point I have made before. In Hampshire the parents of 40 per cent. of children this year decided not to enter their children for the 11-plus at all. This figure is the same as that which has been attained in Birmingham. In other areas as many as half the children's parents have opted out. Taking the lower figure, that gives 40 per cent. of parents who are not worried about the 11-plus. Presumably the parents of the 20 per cent. of children who gain grammar school places are satisfied too. Dissatisfaction must be confined to 40 per cent. of parents at most. Of that 40 per cent. at least half enter their children in an attitude of 'He hasn't got a hope but let him have a go'. They also are not disappointed when the result of having a go proves that he did not have a hope. That reduces the disappointed ones to 20 per cent. at the most."
I will not go on to quote what the writer says about the exploitation of that very small minority, because that would perhaps lead the discussion into Party realms, which I think are quite unsuitable for a discussion on education. But I do think that we must explode this theory that segregation or selection, whatever you like to call it—of children going into different types of school and having an education which best fits their mentality—is a bad thing. It is a good thing. Personally would far rather do well at a subject I was capable of attacking than do badly at one that I was incapable of attacking.
Apropos of comprehensive schools, I admit that here I cannot speak with a great deal of authority because I have not had very much contact with them. I
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happen to know one member of the staff of Kidbrooke School, but I cannot honestly say what the conditions are like, except that my general impression has not been that the lower ones are raised by the higher ones, but rather the reverse. Of course that was also very much my own experience as a schoolmaster. I always found in a class that the instruction went not at the pace of the most intelligent but at the pace of the least intelligent, because one had to get that less intelligent one to do it somehow, and the most intelligent simply had to wait until he had got it. So I do not think that merely having more intelligent children round them will have a very great influence on those who are less intelligent. It may possibly in some cases—I am not at all making a sweeping assertion—but I do not think it will do so in the majority of cases.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, as a matter of interest, may I ask the noble Lord whether he has visited a comprehensive school and sought to find how they run their curriculum?
LORD SOM̃ERS: No. I said that I had had no personal contact with them at all, but was speaking merely from what I had heard from those who have been working in them. As I say, I cannot speak with any great authority, but only generally from the experience that I have had in my own teaching work.
There is only one other point with which I should like to conclude. I think it is a pity that there is so much discrepancy between the educational standards of different counties. I think that probably that is the cause of what is to me a far greater nuisance—namely, these very watertight county boundaries which prevent a man from sending his boy to a school which is only two miles away, because it is over the county boundary, and force him to send the boy to a school about sixteen miles away. I live in a rather remote part of the country where there is no public transport whatsoever, but because we happen to be just over the county boundary, the children cannot go to a school that is reasonably near but have to go a much longer distance to one which is in their own county. I think that if there could be less discrepancy between county standards and a less rigid

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adherence to county boundaries, it would be a good thing.
Before resuming my seat, I should like to say that I most heartily agree with what the right reverend Prelate said about obtaining the right kind of staff, because that is the basis of all proper teaching, and particularly with what he said about the religions being the basis of all teaching, whether it be religious instruction or anything else. Unfortunately, to-day, that seems a little distant with a good many of the teachers with whom I have come in contact. How we are going to obtain the right type of teacher is, I confess, a problem to which I have no solution. I do not think that one can do it merely by raising their salaries, because then one would get the type of teacher who will come simply for the loaves and fishes, so to speak. There is no doubt that the teaching profession needs to be made financially sound, although it also needs to have a call that will attract the type of teacher who is taking it up not just as a profession but rather as a vocation.
6.55 p.m.
LORD DARWEN: My Lords, I am afraid and I am sorry that I cannot toe the Party line on this issue. I feel rather strongly about this matter, and therefore I have put my name down to speak. In the first place, I think it is undesirable that education should be regulated by Party policies. It is partly for this reason that I find myself very much in agreement with the noble Viscount the Lord President of the Council rather than with my noble friend Lord Silkin. I speak as one who has day after day stood in front of a secondary school class of more than one sort—that is to say, a grammar school and a secondary modern school class. I have not taught in a comprehensive school. I have seen over one, but of course a visit does not give one a very profound impression. I am not opposed to comprehensive schools. I think that without experiment education would be in a very poor way, and it is extremely desirable that this type of experiment should continue, but I should not like the comprehensive school to be thought of as a politically-labelled school.
The impression that I have gained from listening to this debate is that the speakers on this side of the House have, either wittingly or unwittingly, done a
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good deal to discredit the secondary modern school. That is a most unfortunate outcome of this debate, because, whether noble Lords like it or not, there are going to be secondary modern schools for a considerable time to come; comprehensive schools cannot be built overnight. Moreover, there are some very fine people working in the secondary modern schools. These people have a job of work to do; they are doing it as best they can, and it seems a pity to me that some of the remarks that have been made should have been made. From my own experience, I know of a number of excellent secondary modern schools and, so high is my opinion of one of them, at any rate, that I should be glad to send a child of mine—and I have children—to that school if the educational rating of the child seemed appropriate. I think that the best secondary modern schools are fully equal in their own way to a really good grammar school. The trouble is that there are a great many more poor secondary modern schools than there are poor grammar schools.
I look at this matter in this way. Half a century ago the Tory Party was a Party of class and the infant Labour Party was a very class-conscious Party, and was rightly seeking to do away with class privilege. The Labour Party has largely achieved this aim, but the legacy of the past has stayed with it. That is a pity, because much of the activity of the Party is affected in a way which I consider undesirable. The battle of social equality and all that goes with it—wealth, power, living standards—has produced an attitude of mind which, although it is achieved fairly, is not easily dispelled. Education is a case in point. It is agreed by both Parties that every child shall have equal opportunities according to aptitude and ability. Nevertheless, the grammar school continues to be associated with privilege. We see how speakers continue to build up the idea of the superiority of the grammar school, and it is hardly to be wondered at, in those circumstances, that the general public feel that the grammar school is the only thing for their child.
Yet the Labour Party recognise that all children cannot adequately cope with an academic curriculum. It requires a fairly high degree of intelligence to deal with a subject like Latin, and the possession of a high degree of intelligence is a certain

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kind of privilege, as one must admit, in the same way that good health, good looks or a sunny temperament are a certain kind of privilege. But it is not the kind of privilege we can sweep away. It is one that we have to accept. It is in the nature of things.
I recognise that parents in the country are very worried about the 11-plus examination. There is no gainsaying that. All the same, I was sorry to hear the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, say that the 11-plus examination had been "utterly discredited". Here, again, for a long time children are going to pass through this process, and if parents are to feel that their children are taking an examination which is utterly discredited it is not really encouraging. Speaking as one who has had something to do with selection tests, I can say that at ally rate so far as the selectivity of the tests is concerned, they are far from discredited.
I would draw attention to something that has been mentioned already, namely, the great variation in the grammar school intake as between one county and another, which was referred to, to some extent, by the noble and learned Viscount. I quote from List 69 of the Ministry of Education, which shows that (in percentages) Nottinghamshire has an intake of 13·4, and Staffordshire, 14·9, which are to be compared with Dorset, for example, with 27·2, Cornwall with 28·9 and Westmorland with 41·2. If we take the boroughs, the figures are, Sunderland 12 and Dudley 9·9; and, on the other hand, for the sake of comparison, Gloucester 31·4, Bradford 30·9 and Southport 28·2. I think your Lordships will agree that the need for a greater degree of standardisation of intake is really a more pressing problem than going on with the idea of comprehensive schools as though that would answer all these difficulties.
Selection for comprehensive schools still remains as far as the London
County Council are concerned. The 11-plus examination still exists, although they have their comprehensive schools; and, although there are great variations in many of them, the first year is devoted very largely to a battery of tests and to the general shuffling about and sorting out of the children into streams. Therefore, by having comprehensive schools we are not getting away from the need of
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separation of the children. This differentiation in the comprehensive school is, very naturally, marked when a modern language is attempted, and still further so if Latin is attempted.
We heard the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, say earlier that he would like to see practically every child take Latin; but this is an ideal which seems to me far removed from reality. The effect of selection on the child is certainly rather disturbing. I know that myself because I have four children. Two of them have already taken the 11-plus and another is just about to take it. And I fully admit that it is worrying for the parents. I am not suggesting that we have found the best way of dealing with this question of selection, but I believe that there has to be some form of selection and I welcome the comprehensive school as a possible means, though I do not think it can, with justice, be pushed to the extent to which my Party is pushing it.
One of the difficulties about the comprehensive school is that it has to be very large and in this sense it is by no means suitable for every kind of locality. Where there is a scattered locality children would be travelling great distances in order to get to the school. So in any case we are hound to have, especially in rural localities, this double, or as it is called tripartite system; but it really boils down to the grammar school and the secondary modern school. To sum up, I am not opposed to this solution but I feel that we must look around for others and not put all our eggs in one basket.
7.9 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I was very sorry to hear my noble friend Lord Darwen suggest that anything that had been said from these Benches constituted an attack on the secondary schools. I cannot personally see how advocacy of the development of comprehensive schools must necessarily be regarded as an attack on modern schools. So far as I can see, certainly in my interpretation of the proposals, the comprehensive schools are in fact an extension of, or can and will contain, the modern schools. I entirely agree with my noble friend in deploring any class-conscious attitude to education, but so far as I am concerned one of the attractions of the comprehensive schools is that they promote parity of esteem which is the beginning

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of the end of class consciousness. I hope that he will look at it, in particular, from that point of view. My noble friend agreed with what had been said about the unsatisfactory nature of the 11-plus.
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Silkin for having concentrated his Motion on these two points of the 11-plus examination and the development of the comprehensive school, because, although I agree with the noble Viscount the Lord President of the Council that many of the difficulties will disappear if we have an adequate supply of good teachers, and the proper buildings and equipment—and many of the other things of which I complain will then vanish—nevertheless, they will not remove what I regard as the gross injustice of the 11-plus examination. I feel that at this stage, when we are having a big upsurge of building and great effort to train more teachers, it is most important that the misunderstandings and prejudices which so obviously exist with regard to the comprehensive school should, if possible, be resolved, so that a lot of the money which is being spent could be allowed to flow into the comprehensive school plan.
On the question of the 11-plus examination, I always regret that it is not called by its true name, which is "10-plus". Every child takes the examination at the tender age of 10 years and a few months, and I think that it ought to be admitted that this is really a disastrous thing. We have had fourteen years' experience of it now, and it is a bad way of separating out children, as I agree with my noble friend they must be separated—indeed, the comprehensive school system separates them, but in a different way. I will call in aid one authority, an authority very much greater than I or most noble Lords here; I refer to Professor H. C. Dent, former editor of The Times Educational Supplement, who in his report on the Secondary Modern School said this:
"No other single feature in the English educational system caused between 1945 and 1957 a tithe of the trouble, anxiety, heartache, discouragement and downright misery as did the 11-plus."
There, my Lords, is an authority who cannot be said to have any political affiliations or implication. I do feel that this 10-plus method is a hopelessly "hit and miss" method of selection.
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I will recall two examples from my own experience. The first is when I myself, at the age of 10 years, was given an opportunity to compete for what the noble Viscount correctly called a "free place". I was a very small 10, very under-sized. I lived in an outer London suburb, and when my father took me up for the examination it necessitated a journey by Underground railway. It was the first time I had ever been on a Tube train in my life, and when we got to Piccadilly I was violently sick. My father cleaned me up and took me for a brisk training spin up Regent Street. I arrived, somewhat recovered, and mounted a tall flight of marble stairs; then my father's heart changed, and he called me back. Apparently I misunderstood what he said, because I got my free place and stayed at the school for eight years. It is an indication that a minor illness, or a more serious illness, on the day of the examination can stop a child from taking it.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, surely it is an indication that nothing can stop the noble Lord. That is the only inference to be drawn.
LORD STONHAM: That is an inference which I could not draw myself. But the noble Viscount should admit that every year many children who may have the necessary ability lose their opportunities through no fault of their own, and chances as slight as the toss of a coin can decide a child's future.
The second example—a much more large-scale one—occurred to me almost immediately after I became a Member of another place in 1945. I had the duty of meeting a deputation of distressed and angry parents whose daughters—they were all daughters—had all passed (if that is the correct expression) the written county examination but had been denied grammar school places; whereas, they said to me, many other girls who had failed in a county examination had been granted grammar school places. They alleged that this discrimination was on the ground of the social standing of the parents. I said that that was nonsense and could not possibly happen in the year 1945. But, on investigation, the facts, whatever the reason, proved to be true.

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The local authority refused my invitation to grant extra scholarships for these deprived children, so I submitted the fact to the then Minister of Education, the late Miss Ellen Wilkinson, who, after investigation, instructed the local education authority to create additional scholarships for these deprived children. More than eighty girls from all parts of Somerset were concerned. That, I think, is a concrete example of the extremely bad working of this system. I did not, of course, know the girls myself, but in recent years many of them have written to me, some on the occasion when I came to your Lordships' House, and it has been quite extraordinary how many of them have taken up the teaching profession and how well they have done. I could mention many other examples of that kind. If one person can say this from personal experience, it gives some idea of how many tens of thousands of children are arbitrarily deprived of the chance of an education from which they and the country would benefit.
I believe that this 10-plus examination is disgracefully unfair from the viewpoint of individuals, and from the national viewpoint it is wasteful of the genius of our people. If at the age of 11 children are put into separate schools, each with a limited curriculum, it must prejudge and limit the child's capacity, because there is a limit to the extent to which in two years' time a child can be "yanked" out of one school and put in another. I know that it can be truthfully argued that this system of selection has been improved and tightened up. In fact, a few days ago Sir Ronald Gould, the General Secretary of the National Union of Teachers—incidentally speaking in favour of this method of segregation—said:
"I do not believe it possible to improve it much more than has been done."
I am quite sure that he is right. And I am equally sure that it is useless to attempt to improve it, because it is attempting the impossible to devise any system which will safely, fairly and effectively determine what should be the future proper course of education for a child of 10. I believe that it can be done only with a constantly continuing selective process—it must go on—and that constantly continuing selective process is possible only in comprehensive schools.
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Of course, it is not the case, as my noble friend suggested, that we want to stop selection. It must go on. But it must be a vastly different form of selection from the one we have now, and it is not possible in the modern-school and grammar-school method of division. Some of these comprehensive schools have a ten or twelve-stream entry, which is already enough to cater satisfactorily for the varying intelligence and aptitudes of all children. I have been at some pains to look into the opposition to comprehensive schools, and it seems to me that it could be not unfairly classified under three heads: political, which I think is unworthy of consideration and to be dismissed at once; misunderstanding, or perhaps ignorance of the facts; and, thirdly, vested interests.
People say that comprehensive schools will destroy the grammar schools, and that they aim at a flat level—a sort of common denominator of education—for all children. In my view, nothing could be further from the truth. Local education authorities are free to adapt the comprehensive idea in any way they wish. In Leicestershire, for example, as I think has been mentioned, the grammar school is associated with a number of secondary schools to form a single education unit. The various units of a comprehensive school need not, in my view (although here I know that I am in opposition to my noble friend), be in the same precincts. If it is a case of a new building or a new school, it will obviously be most convenient to house what I call the grammar school element, or its equivalent, with the other units; but it can be done in many ways.
The essential thing is to ensure that any good existing school is used to the fullest extent and to the utmost advantage. It is the syllabus and the quality of the teaching that make a grammar school, not the buildings and the blazer. With regard to the dull uniformity which is alleged in comprehensive schools, I think we have only to reflect on their ten or twelve streams, compared with the three with which most grammar schools are content, to find the answer to that criticism. In fact, it would be difficult to imagine a system with greater variety and less uniformity.
With regard to the opposition from vested interests, some quotations have

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already been given in this debate. I myself came across one example in a newspaper account of a debate in a county education authority on a motion that a committee be appointed to study the comprehensive school system. The only opposition came from a councillor who was headmaster of a grammar school. I am glad to say that the council—which, incidentally, was a strongly Conservative one—agreed to consider the matter with an "open mind". My Lords, I submit that that is what we badly need on this subject—an open mind.
Another account, which appeared in the News Chronicle a few days ago, was of a grammar school headmaster who, at his school's speech day, attacked the Labour Party's educational policy which, he said,
"means effectively one thing—the complete dissolution of the grammar schools."
He said:
"In my opinion, and in the opinion of 1,400 other headmasters of these schools, it would not only be disastrous for the able pupils of junior schools but even more so for the nation itself".
And he went on:
"…only madmen would be so foolish as to stop what is being accomplished in the grammar schools".
I would suggest, my Lords, that only madmen could believe that we want to stop what is being done in the grammar schools. In any event, I think that it does a general disservice when anyone, whether connected with education or not, uses extravagant language of that kind and attributes to the supporters of the comprehensive system that kind of motive.
I would say that, next to the fact that the comprehensive school is, perhaps, the only way of providing education suited to the capacity of every child, to my mind its great advantage is that it can also give us equality of esteem in education. I have had the opportunity of seeing in quite a number of schools the same class before and after the 10-plus, and to me the difference between the 10-plus class and the 13-year old secondary modern class is quite startling and depressing. Until recently I represented in another place a London constituency, and most of the schools in that constituency regarded it as an essential part of their education that their classes should pay a visit to the Houses of Parliament one a year. Once
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or twice a week during term time, therefore, I found myself conducting these classes round the Houses of Parliament. The difference was quite remarkable.
First, I had the top class in the primary school (that was the youngest class I had; they were the 10-plus children), and the class was alert, lively, and intelligent. Unhappily, when they went back they wrote, and sent to me, thirty-two essays; and very often I used to read them. Then, two years later, I would have, except for the few bright ones that had been taken out, the same children in the secondary modern. The difference was quite remarkable; they were, comparatively speaking, dull, and insipid: they asked very few questions, and they did not write any essays at all.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Does the noble Lord not think that perhaps that was because they had seen it all two years before?
LORD STONHAM: I should not have thought so, because when they were ten the interest was such that I should have thought that, like most children, they would have tried to air some of the knowledge they had gained two years earlier. But, to my mind, it was not the fact that a few bright ones had been taken out of the class: it was the consciousness of being in what was the same old school slum—which, indeed, they were: of being an inferior order. That is what took the life out of them. The grammar school kids had gone to a new school, a new life; they wore a new blazer, and they had a new outlook. They were different. Now, in comprehensive schools they all do different work, but they have the same new outlook. It is one school; not two nations. They have equality of esteem; and the dullards do not despair because there is, demonstrably, something which even they can do well: and, above all, they "belong".
I think it is impossible to over-emphasise the importance of this fact, and the Government have a wonderful opportunity to put it to the test. New secondary schools are building all over the country, and in most cases they are better, brighter, and more spacious than many of the grammar schools which have so long held pride of place in local esteem. If the new schools can be united with

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the old favourites in a sensible comprehensive system, then the whole education outlook can be changed within five years.
The noble Viscount opposite had a good deal to say about the secondary modern school, and he said words to the effect that there was a sort of new life flowing through the best ones. As an example, he referred to the fact (I am not quoting his exact words, but I hope I am paraphrasing him correctly) that an 18-year-old in a secondary modern school might be very much better off (or certainly better off) than if he had just scraped into a grammar school. I am not arguing whether that would be so or not; and I do not know whether the noble Viscount bothered to look up and see how many 18-year-olds there are in secondary modern schools before he trade that remark. I did; I looked it up in the 1957 Report, and I found that there are precisely 177 18-year-olds in secondary modern schools, out of 360,000 children. So, whether or not the 18-year-old is better off in the windswept, new modern school, there are not many of them better off.
Compare that with what we already know of some of the comprehensive schools. Recently, we had the evidence given to us in a document called Inside the Comprehensive School which contained one quotation from the headmaster of a comprehensive school in Middlesex. He said:
"Of this year's intake less than 14 per cent. were of proven grammar school ability, and yet the forecast is that well over 50 per cent. will sit for some qualifying external examination in the year 1962 or before."
Another comment, from a comprehensive school in London, reads:
"As we begin our third year more than 80 per cent. of the children from last year's ten fourth year forms are continuing their education past the statutory school leaving age, each taking one of the wide variety of academic or practical courses available for a further one, two, three or four years, and this from a group 70 per cent. of which left primary school with a 'modern' selection and therefore might be expected to leave secondary school at 15 years of age."
My Lords, is it not fair to suggest, in the light of these facts, that the comprehensive school can provide not 16 or 20 per cent. who achieve that level—which is what we get from the grammar schools—but 45 to 50 per cent.? It means a half perhaps instead of one-sixth.
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I would ask your Lordships to consider how much has to be done and how important it is that we do the right things, and spend money and effort in the right way. More than perhaps in any other civilised country in the world, we are still suffering from class consciousness and social snobbery, and I believe that it begins in our school system. Here alone do we segregate children in the way we do. It is only here that it is the mark of respectability not to send children to the State school. We can kill this idea only if we build up equality of esteem in our educational system and make it something to be proud of.
At present, most of our children are herded together in overcrowded classes. We spend different sums on them—in primary schools the amount is £27 a year in modern schools, £45 a year; and in grammar schools, £75 a year. We divide them arbitrarily, and often distressingly, at the age of 11, and every year the future prospects of thousands of youngsters are permanently damaged. Justice and decency demand that we end these practices and adopt a system which, whilst properly fitting the educational content to the ability of different children, involves no difference in social status. This can be done only by a wide extension of the comprehensive schools. Such schools may never be in the same precincts. That wilt not matter, so long as we see that there is equality of status and esteem and, in the end, equality of opportunity—and this not only in name, but in fact. I believe that if, as parents, taxpayers and Government, we are all determined to play a full part, there can be in this system such a flowering of the talents of our young people that we need not fear comparison with any nation in the world.
7.33 p.m.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, before making my brief contribution to the discussion I should like to apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for being unable to be present at the inception of this debate, through pressure of business at my own place of work. I hope for noble Lords' indulgence on this account. After we have heard a number of speeches from ex-teachers, and an ex-Minister of Education, what I contribute will certainly not be from expert practical knowledge of this particular subject; but sometimes an objective view can be of use.

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I was educated at one of the smaller public schools not many miles away from the constituency for which the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, sat in another place, in the very Charming Devon town of Tiverton. There, during the war, we had an intake of boys from Tiverton Grammar School. At first there was a certain amount of scepticism as to how they would fit in, but in a short time it was quite apparent that not only did they fit in extremely well but their educational ability and physical ability were, to say the least of it, most impressive. They were the type of boys who would go far in ordinary life.
Only the other day I visited a secondary modern school in North London which has a total of, I think, 1,045 boys and girls and 42 teachers. I had a long talk with the headmaster and a comprehensive tour of the school. Unfortunately, being Saturday, I was not able to see many of the children themselves, but I did see some of the results, particularly from the art class, which had been produced. They really were very surprising indeed. I also saw the domestic economy section where the older girls were taught cooking, ironing, sewing, machine work and other activities which would fit them for life in later years. The school itself was constructed only three years ago and tremendous strides have been made under a most active headmaster and what must obviously be a very co-operative and efficient staff.
Of course, one of the problems which he faces, as does every school, whether private school or State school, is the shortage of teachers. Now, as has been mentioned already to-day, the solution to the shortage of teachers does not always resolve itself in the realm of finance. As has been pointed out, if "the sky's the limit" attitude were to apply to teachers' salaries one might well get opportunists, just in for the money and not for the welfare of the children. I should like to make this point very emphatically: that it is on the shoulders of the headmaster or headmistress of a school—public, preparatory, grammar, comprehensive or any type of school—that the ability of the school itself rests. A headmaster or headmistress with a willing and talented staff can produce results. At one stage, in the school I attended, we had a headmaster
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who, academically, was brilliant, but who had little or no idea how to control boys, let alone staff; and several of the staff walked out. It took a very long time, and the ultimate removal of the headmaster concerned, to get that school back on its feet. I stress that point to emphasise the importance of good teachers.
I would extend from your Lordships' House a vote of praise for those in the teaching profession to-day. They are having to cope with tremendous odds, over-spill classes and inadequate buildings. I think the present Government has done a great deal towards improving the remuneration of teachers and in school building, although, I say, without apology, that what has been done is not enough. A lot remains to be done. Until we get adequate teachers and adequate buildings we cannot hope to have any real solution of this education problem.
Reading my local paper the other week I was interested in an article about education in Surrey. It said:
"Secondary education in Surrey is constantly undergoing reorganisation and review. Nearly all schools are providing specialist courses, in addition to general education, varying from home craft to building and engineering courses."
Reverting again to Middlesex, because this is the only secondary modern school I have seen, I was particularly impressed by the workshops there—the lathes, the carpentry section and the laboratories. In this forthcoming scientific age it is vital that children should have an adequate scientific education, and particularly those who have a tendency towards that field.
I believe it was the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, who stressed the importance of Latin in schools. I was never a scientist myself, and never shall be, but I was always greatly attached to languages and the classics. It is all very well to say that Latin is a dead language, but doctors, biologists, and scientists must all have a working knowledge of that language, and I feel that Latin should be in the curriculum of schools of all types.
I would say only this on the subject of comprehensive schools. The Government's White Paper does not bedevil the idea of comprehensive schools. What it says, in paragraph 17, is:
"… and furthermore the Government have serious doubts about the wisdom of establishing very large comprehensive schools."

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I think there can be little room for disagreement there, because, in view of the shortage of teachers, if you are going to establish schools with perhaps 2,500 pupils, you are not going to get any individual attention for the children. I believe that in some areas, especially in the new towns where populations are, or will be, dense, comprehensive schools can play a great part. But obviously the geography and siting must be an important element in the planning of any type of comprehensive school, just as it must in any type of large school.
A great deal has been said about the fear of parents and of children regarding the 11-plus examination. I talked to the headmaster of this particular secondary school on the subject, and he said that, for his part, he found the children had had very little fear, but that the parents were in some cases apprehensive. I saw a specimen test paper, and it seemed to me—and I am a father with a child who is not yet of school age but who has a brain which is equivalent probably to that of a child of seven or eight years old—that, even allowing for the fact that there is a time limit, it was, if anything, too easy. But many of the questions were set in a rather slick manner, and I think that on that ground the 11-plus examination can be criticised.
I do not agree that 11 is too young an age at which to get an idea of a child's capabilities; but whether or not the 11-plus in its present form is the best way of doing it is another matter. I do not think it is. It is all very well to criticise a system which has been started, but it is by no means easy to find an alternative. Possibly the noble Viscount who is to wind up the debate will elaborate on alternatives which the Government have. The White Paper offers a partial solution, but the ordinary man in the street is concerned as to what will ensue. I think that possibly more could be said of the Leicestershire experiment which has been quoted to-day. Possibly other counties, if the experiment meets with success, would want to follow suit. I would conclude by saying that I believe the White Paper we are debating to-day is a praiseworthy attempt to find some kind of a solution to secondary education. Personally, I believe that the secondary schools do a first rate job
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and that no praise could be too high for the teaching profession as a whole.
7.48 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, we have had an interesting debate and I hope that a good deal of the misconception which it seems to me is inherent in this particular subject will have been cleared up in the course of it. My noble friend Lord Silkin, my noble friend Lord Pakenham, the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, and my noble friend Lord Stonham have between them, I think, given such a comprehensive review of the policy of the Labour Party and of the whole system of comprehensive schools that there is no need for me to speak at any great length, and I certainly do not propose to do so. We listened with great interest to the speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, who, as my noble friend Lord Pakenham so rightly said, during his comparatively short period as Minister of Education certainly aroused the interest of the teaching profession; and I gather that many of them were sorry when he was removed to other spheres.
But it seems to me that the noble Viscount, in, at any rate, the first hour of his speech, was somewhat in the condition of the generals in mediæval Italy, who, as the House will remember, conducted without bloodshed and without any close approach to the enemy a series of manœuvres which did not really get them or anyone else much further. It was only in the last quarter of an hour or so that the noble Viscount abandoned that pose and came out with a whoop, as it were, took a battle axe and laid about him at the unfortunate noble Lords on these Benches. Having exhorted us to keep education out of the Party political sphere, he in the last quarter of an hour threw his exhortations to the wind and laid about him with a good political will.
As I understood him, the noble Viscount's main contentions were two. First of all, he discounted the problems of selection. He said that if the difficulties in the shortfall of teachers were overcome, all other problems would be solved. I have no doubt that in the highly unlikely event of the teacher difficulties being overcome, a great many problems would be solved. But it is a gross oversimplification to say all would be solved, or that it is at all likely for years to come,

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so far as one can see, that these difficulties of the shortfall in teachers will be overcome. If that is the solution, what have the Government
done to provide an adequate number of teachers? As the noble Viscount readily admitted, they have done little. He told us that the problem has become more acute since he was Minister of Education, and that nothing he did then really grappled with it. Certainly it has gone very little way to its solution, because it is worse than it was before he became a Minister. Of course, I am not blaming him for that, but the fact is that we are losing in this sphere instead of gaining.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, that is not true.
LORD OGMORE: That is what I gathered.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: What I said to the noble Lord was that, first, the teachers have never increased so much as during the office of the present Government, and, secondly, the problem had in fact been greatly eased. I stated a number of statistics to show that by the middle 1960's it would have disappeared in one branch of the schools, and that in five years a decided improvement would have taken place in the secondary schools. If the noble Lord reads what I said in Hansard, he will find that it is directly the opposite of what he is attributing to me.
LORD OGMORE: I listened to the noble Viscount with great attention and. of course, I shall read what he said to-morrow in Hansard. But I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that the noble Viscount not only said that the situation had got worse since he was Minister, but ascribed it to some extent, as I understood him, to the fact that those who advise the Government had made two serious miscalculations in the probable result of the birth rate.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord has got it wrong. I never said that the situation had got worse. I said that in two respects the situation was acute. One is the increase in the birth rate which has subsequently taken place, and the second is the welcome increase in the number of those who stay on at school. I never said that the situation has got worse. In fact, I quoted
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statistics to show that the contrary was the case.
LORD OGMORE: Then I think a good deal of the noble Viscount's case went by the board. It is not everybody who agrees with him even on that. Just recently 400 South Wales schoolmasters met at Cardiff, and they passed a resolution recommending that a Royal Commission to investigate teachers' salaries and recruitment into the teaching profession should be instituted instantly. They gave a most gloomy view of the situation. I was going to quote what they said in support of what I understood the noble Viscount to say but which I understand I got wrong. But certainly they gave a most gloomy account. They said that to attract more men to the profession, salaries had to be revised. The General Secretary told them that if you go into a typical staff room, it is not the schoolmistress who does not know where next month's rates are coming from, it is the schoolmaster who is harassed in that way. They also said that the Burnham Committee was a sham, and, as I say, they went to the length of recommending the appointment of a Royal Commission, so serious did they feel the position to be.
My honourable friend in another place, Councillor Percy Morris, the Member for Swansea, West, gave recently a very gloomy picture with regard to the teaching profession and the position in the schools. He said that the Act of 1944 prescribed regulations by which children should not exceed 40 in a primary school class and 30 in a secondary school class. Fifteen years later, two-thirds of the classes in secondary schools have over 30 pupils, and about half a million children are being taught in schools built before 1870. That is what Mr. Percy Morris said, and no one can say far one moment that those facts are other than serious for the country to face.
May I add from my own experience in the London Welsh Association, of which I am President, where we have literally hundreds of teachers in London schools. Recently I was talking to a young lady who was a teacher in a secondary modern school in London. I asked her about the conditions there, and she said: "What people do not understand is that when another teacher falls ill or goes on a course, or anything of that kind, we have

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to take her class. In my school I am frequently trying to teach about 60 or 70 children, and it is quite impossible to do so." Those are the actual facts that come out. Of course, if you took the actual statistics of that school, it would assume that all the teachers are there and are teaching all the time; but in fact they are not all there. They may be ill, especially in a season like this when there has been so much influenza about. Those are the conditions present in the schools of the State, and it is not good enough.
The second objection the noble Viscount had to my noble friend's case was that in comprehensive schools the academic children and the academic slant (if I may call it so) would act to the detriment of the non-academic. The noble Viscount quoted a letter in support from a rather unusual source for him, the New Statesman. My noble friend Lord Pakenham countered this by saying that the public schools are basically comprehensive, as indeed they are.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Certainly not.
LORD OGMORE: The noble Viscount shakes his head and says, "Certainly not", but in fact they are basically comprehensive, in so far as the boys who go there are chosen from a fairly wide intellectual segment and are allocated to various academic streams. I have some experience of this, because I am a governor of a public school and on the education committee of the court of governors. I know that that is in fact the position.
When I went to a comprehensive school with my noble friend, Lord Pakenham, I found that, broadly speaking, they were running on much the same lines as a public school except, of course, that in a public school there is not the fourth stream, as it were, that they get in the comprehensive school. Otherwise, they are organised on much the same lines, with various periods for mathematics, French and so on. They have houses, and they have games and competitions between the houses. They have societies and the like. The noble Lord, Lord Darwen, criticised my predecessors in the debate for discrediting the secondary modern school as a result of our criticising the present system. But, of course, this argument would mean that one could not suggest improvements or advocate reforms because one must, to
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some extent, criticise the existing state of affairs. We cannot expect to be prohibited in this House from suggesting reforms because some might think that that throws a certain amount of cold water on the existing system.
What are the virtues of the comprehensive school? I believe that they have come out pretty clearly in the debate. First of all, it helps to solve the difficulties of the 11-plus test and its consequences, which have been brought out so clearly by my noble friend Lord Stonham, and which I need not repeat. It also deals with the late developer arid the early retarder, both of whom were referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Silk in. It caters for the boy who wishes to stay on after 15. It also does something else which has to some extent been brought out by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, though it has not been developed by any speaker to-day, so far as I remember, and that is that it plays a great part in the social integration of the boys or girls at the school.
The boys, although in different streams and in different forms, all meet, of course, whichever particular stream they are in, in the houses; the school is divided up into houses, as a public school is. They meet on the playing field, play games together, irrespective of what stream they are in; and they also, of course, belong to the various societies, cultural and arts societies and so on. It often happens that a boy who is not particularly gifted academically is a big figure in his house, far more important in his house than the academic figures, because he is a very good sportsman, cricketer or footballer. We all remember from our own schooldays that it was not always those who could win university scholarships who were looked up to; it was the captain of the first XV or the first XI who was the real power in the land. That is the fact in the comprehensive school, and it is a very important fact. You also get boys who may not be at all gifted academically but who are gifted as artists, sculptors, painters and that sort of thing; and they, through the various societies, can be made to feel that they are playing an important part in the life of the school.
What are the drawbacks of this system? I think that one drawback may be, unless we are careful, in size. I make

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no claims to be an expert of any kind, but I do not believe that any school can usefully be over 1,800 in numbers. I think even that number is too many. I believe that one will need to look at the size very carefully, otherwise it gets rather unwieldy, and there is no possibility of the headmaster knowing more than a small percentage of the boys: the houses get too big; there can be only a certain number of houses, and if they get too big it will destroy the idea of the house. I should have thought that a school ought not to have more than 1,500 pupils. That is only a personal opinion; and I think that even that number is on the large side.
Another matter we should have to look at is the question of the denominational schools, in view of the rider that the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, made in his speech. I think that if one were starting afresh, and had no ground to build upon, a country would go in for the comprehensive school system. I am quite satisfied that it does, by and large, give the best form of education. But we in this country, of course, do not start afresh. We have to build on many old traditions, many fine traditions, in the grammar schools, and just recently, as the noble Lord, Lord Darwen, said, in the secondary modern schools as well. The Labour Party have recognised this fact.
The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, challenged us on this side to produce our policy in this respect, and I would direct his attention to the brochure that he described as the glossiest of the glossy, The Future Labour Offers You. If he will turn to the portion marked "Education", he will see there what the Labour Party policy is, and this is the policy on which the Labour Party will be fighting the next Election. It says:
"The far-reaching reorganization of secondary education will therefore become essential. The comprehensive schools that already exist in London, Coventry and elsewhere are an outstanding example of how this can be tackled. We do not say, however, that all secondary schools should conform to one single rigid pattern. There are other ways of overcoming the evils of segregation at 11, and these will be encouraged. We nail the lie that our aim is to abolish Grammar school education. On the contrary, we shall open it up to every child who can benefit by it and extend the tradition and standards of the Grammar school throughout secondary education."
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In another place on the 22nd of last month the Minister of Education quoted my right honourable friend Mr. Gaitskell, the Leader of the Party, as referring in a broadcast to a new secondary school which he had opened and saying that he was pleased to find
"that there were opportunities for the boys there after the age of 16 to qualify to go on to a grammar school sixth form. Here was another example of greater flexibility. It is the principle that matters and the principle is that opportunity must be open and that children must not be finally segregated at 11."
That principle has been running through all the speeches from this side—our objection to the fact that so often a child's whole life is directed by this examination on a certain day. And, of course, it may be a very bad day for the child, as it was, happily without those consequences, for my noble friend Lord Stonham.
I think my noble friend Lord Silkin was quite right when he said that, if possible, the comprehensive school must he in one curtilage. It will not always be possible to have that situation, of course, because sometimes the local authority will be unable to get enough land to build a school to contain all the boys, and there may be quite modern schools nearby that they would be sorry to have to give up. But wherever it is possible to have it, we should regard that as a very important matter. My Lords, I do not think there is any need for me to labour the point any further. This question of the 11-plus examination and the comprehensive school has had an exhaustive and very thorough examination. I would add just this. I am sure we are all very grateful to my noble friend Lord Silkin who opened the debate and who dealt with the subject in such a masterly fashion. I hope that from the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, the Lord President of the Council, when he comes to reply we shall have an answer to the various points that have been put to him during the course of the debate, and that he will not ride off into polemics but will give us facts, because those are what we require.
8.8 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think at this late hour it would be wrong for me to respond in any detail to the last invitation, as so many of those who

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have asked the questions have not waited to hear the answers. It would, I think, be to add a penalty to the courtesy which the few noble Lords have paid me by remaining to the end if I were to answer the other noble Lords' questions.
LORD OGMORE: Answer those who remain.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I must say, too, that I think it was a little disappointing in the noble Lord who has just sat down to suggest that I do not provide facts. I did in fact go out of my way, even to the extent of worrying the noble Lord, Lork Pakenham, to distraction, by introducing a great deal of factual material in my speech—factual material which I considered to be of very considerable relevance and importance to the debate. At this stage I will try only to pick out some of the salient points which have been mentioned.
It seems to me that there is a political and moral issue and that there is an educational issue. The two are connected but they are really quite separate. The political and moral issue is this. The Labour Party have said, not in their compendious pamphlet of all policy but in that which deals with education, that they will, if they are returned to power, on a national scale require—and I use that word because it is used in the pamphlet—local education authorities to prepare secondary education development plans designed, with all reasonable speed, to adopt the comprehensive principle. That is what they have said they are going to do, or what they would do if they got the chance. That statement has caused deep resentment and widespread anxiety in the educational world. The reason why it has caused deep resentment and widespread anxiety is that, whatever one may say, the educationalists are deeply divided on both the issues which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, raised; and whatever else may be said about the situation, to require local education authorities who are hostile to the principles to adopt them is a piece of arbitrary tyranny, at least in the opinion of those noble Lords who agree with me politically.
The thing which I had hoped to get from noble Lords opposite was a clear cut statement that that was not going to happen. On the contrary, they have
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declined that issue. They have not told us whether or not they adhere to that statement of policy contained in Learning to Live. It is true that the noble Lord opposite has quoted a statement from the other pamphlet to the effect that that nailed the lie that it is intended to destroy the grammar school. On the other hand, if you require local authorities to adopt the comprehensive principle with all reasonable speed you must impose sentence of death with a stay of execution; but it still is sentence of death. The fact that some noble Lords opposite, though apparently not all, still intend to impose sentence of death, was, despite his disclaimer, quite clearly brought out by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, who in a particularly eloquent peroration made it plain that what he wanted to do was to go forward against segregation, with one set of schools in each locality, with everybody playing his part, so lone as they accept this principle, and that social integration would be put through in this way. That was the burden of his song.
The question which we have to ask ourselves, morally and politically, and which noble Lords opposite have refused to face is: can you justify, morally or politically, a national requirement on local education authorities, hostile or friendly to this hotly disputed principle, to adopt it whether or not their local inhabitants support it? My view and that of the Government is that you could not possibly justify that course. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, twitted me with introducing Party politics after having made an appeal to avoid it. If that is so, he failed utterly to understand the nature of the appeal. My appeal was this: that the Party opposite should drop this national requirement; and I pointed out to them that we in the Government over a period of more than seven years of power have, despite our convictions to the contrary, sponsored almost all of the fifty existing comprehensive schools—in other words, we have not adopted the principle of requiring local authorities to go against their consciences on this highly disputable matter.
Do the Labour Party intend to adhere to this policy, which is sentence of death upon the system of education which those who do not happen to accept the comprehensive principle believe in? Do they intend to require local authorities, as this document says they will, to adopt a policy

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contrary to their convictions? That is the political and moral question. If they abandon this and proceed on the non-doctrinaire basis, as Conservative Ministers of Education have done, then it is possible to remove this issue out of the sphere of Party politics, as I would desire; because although there may be differences of opinion, it seems to me to be lamentable, as the noble Lord, Lord Darwen, said, that those differences of opinion should necessarily have Party labels. But if the Labour Party as a Party propose to make this national requirement on local education authorities, then it is inevitable that we who have conscientious objection to it should fight them in the political cockpit and use this powerful electoral weapon. I am quite sure that it will be in our favour. Until we have an unequivocal withdrawal of this threat it is inevitable that we should fight it and we shall get a great deal of educational support for what we have to do. That is the political and moral issue.
Then there is the educational issue which is, as I say, connected but really quite separate. The educational issue appears to me to be this. Everybody would agree that, as matters stand at the moment, there is a certain amount of anxiety when a child is entered for what is called, quite wrongly, the 11-plus examination. The question educationally, however, is whether that is due to the persistent social memories of the past to which the noble Lord, Lord Darwen, to my mind absolutely rightly, drew attention—the kind of persistent snobbery which has long outlived its educational reality. Is it due in part, as I have tried to show that at any rate in my opinion it is, to the fact that a great number of the secondary modern schools are under-staffed, held in old buildings, and with inadequate courses? Or is it due to something else intrinsically wrong with selection as such? That is the educational issue. Believe me, you do not advance the case for the comprehensive school by pointing, as several noble Lords have done, to conditions in which the present secondary modern school fails to live up to the kind of standard which I was seeking to describe in my opening speech.
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I was glad that the right reverend Prelate intervened in this debate, because he said something which I think he was able, from his position, to say much more convincingly than somebody from the purely lay political Benches could do. He said that he really did not see why, in a sense, you could not select most children without examination at all. Of course, that is quite correct, as the noble Lord, Lord Som̃ers, in a most interesting and valuable contribution pointed out. In Hampshire 40 per cent. of the parents, in Birmingham I think 50 per cent., and in other places the same sort of proportion, have such confidence in the secondary modern education available to their children, and such confidence that it provides them with what their children need and want, that they do not bother to send their children in for the selective test (because they know quite well that the children get justice and what they want) unless they regard the child as exceedingly gifted. This makes nonsense, I say with respect, of all the lamentations which were uttered by the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, and the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, when they described children as sobbing themselves to sleep and staying awake all night, made miserable because of the 11-plus examination. Believe me, the growing generation of parents, parents of 20 and 30, know something about modern systems of education, and they are not worried about their children unless they have had this misery put into their minds by old fogies who still live a life in the past.
I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Darwen, that noble Lords opposite, quite unwittingly and unintentionally, have done a real disservice to the cause of education by encouraging parents to have these anxieties about the 11-plus examination and about the kind of education which is available to their children in secondary modern schools, without attaching them, as they should be attached, to such shortcomings as we are trying to get rid of by the kind of policy which I was seeking to describe in my opening remarks. I would agree wholeheartedly with the right reverend Prelate that the comprehensive school, which, after all, we have sponsored as to the great majority of existing schools, has its part to play in a pattern of great variety in education.

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The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, who, I thought, was not at his admirable best in this debate to-day, asked me whether I would deny to other children the best available education. I would say quite candidly that during my brief period as Minister I spent a very long time visiting schools, and there is no such thing as the "best available education." There are good schools which are public schools, and I could mention a very bad series of schools which are public schools, but I will not. There are good schools which are comprehensive schools and good schools which are grammar schools; and there are good schools which are the best type of secondary modern schools. The idea that there is laid up in heaven something like a platonic idea of a perfect available system of education is one utterly foreign to any kind of really constructive thought upon this extremely complicated subject.
Since the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, has come back, I want to say one or two relatively severe things to him. He said that he wanted all children to have an education comparable to that of Eton. Exactly what he meant by that I do not know. The main features of Eton are, first, boarding school education, second, a very high academic selective and segregated standard of entry, and third, denominational religious teaching. The noble Lord volunteered the theory that at any rate the majority of children in this country should learn Latin; and he told us that he had actually taught in a primary school. I should like him when he goes—as I hope he will avoid going—to Purgatory in the end, to be sentenced to teach "C" and "D" streams in a secondary modern school the compulsory Latin that he would like to force down their throats. Then there would be something like natural justice.
But for the noble Lord to get up in this House and say he is against segregation and that it is nonsense for those who believe in segregation to do so, and then to confess that he sends his own child to Ampleforth, which is one of the most highly segregated schools in the country, with a highly selective academic standard of entrance and denominational religious teaching, seems to me to reach a level of inconsistency which borders on the incomprehensible to those of us who try
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to apply any kind of logical reasoning to this process.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I have made a very great effort to come back so as to give the noble and learned Viscount a chance to blow off a little steam in the right direction. I would only say this: I made perfectly plain in my opening remarks that I was in favour of parents of particular denominations being able to choose a denominational education. I did not just say "segregated"; I said segregation on the grounds of class or ability should be ruled out; but I specifically exempted religion. Perhaps when the noble and learned Viscount looks at Hansard he will study that point a little more carefully.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I am quite aware of what the noble Lord said, but what he does not seem to have gat into his head is that when he says that education for the multitude ought to be of the quality that is given by Eton and Ampleforth, he is opting against integration and in favour of academic selection, because that is the principle on which those two schools, in fact, operate. He simply cannot get away with saying that Ampleforth segregated simply on the basis of being a Roman Catholic school. It has a higher entrance which would debar a great number of people from entering because they would not reach the academic standard; and if the noble Lord says that the children of the masses ought to have a school as good as Eton or Ampleforth, he is in fact saying that they ought to have a grammar school education arrived at by a selective test of entry.
I must add, too, since the noble Lord has raised the religious point—and I think it is fair to say this to him—that it is no doubt true that from every theological point of view, it is possible to reconcile with his own faith a comprehensive school; and I have no doubt at all, as he says, that there are one or two Roman Catholic comprehensive schools in contemplation. But it would be utterly impossible to give Roman Catholics what they, rightly or wrongly, demand of the State over the whole area of the country if they were not allowed to contract out of the policy which his Party is threatening to impose on the rest of the population—whether it be Protestant or any

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other denomination. There can be no way out of this. There is no virtue in religion in this respect. Parents either have a natural right to educate their children according to the system of education they prefer, within reason, or they have not.
Plenty of parents have a conscientious objection to submitting their children to the kind of integration which they think, rightly or wrongly—and it may be wrongly—will be imposed upon them by the comprehensive school. There are plenty of local authorities who would object to that in the name of the parents. The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, was not here for the earlier part of my reply, but the moral and political issue he has to face is how he, as a Roman Catholic, can possibly defend the doctrine put here in the Labour Party pamphlet threatening to impose on parents and on local authorities all over the country, contrary to their consciences, a pattern of education in which they do not believe and of which the best that can be said is that some educationists believe in it and others do not. These are problems with which the noble Lord has not grappled.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, perhaps the noble and learned Viscount, who interrupted me several times, will allow me to interrupt twice. I will then give him his chance to continue on these lines. So far as Roman Catholics are concerned, the proposals of the Labour Party are perfectly well known and are not objected to by the hierarchy, which is not taking sides on this issue. So the noble Viscount cannot say that the Roman Catholic hierarchy are incapable of making up their mind. They are not taking sides in this controversy. If the noble and learned Viscount wants it in plain terms, it is open to any Roman Catholic to use his discretion in choosing between the Parties.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I was not talking of what was theologically possible in terms of the hierarchy, but, since the noble Lord has raised that point, I must say that it is utterly morally reprehensible to claim for parents of his own domination, a natural right to educate their children religiously in a segregated school of their own choosing and at the same time to adhere to a policy which threatens to impose on all other parents who do
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not happen to belong to his denomination a pattern of education in which they may not believe and to which the elected local education authority may be bitterly opposed. That has nothing to do with the hierarchy, but is something which the noble Lord must reconcile with his own conscience and sense of logic.
When he comes to read the various proposals to which he committed himself in his speech, he will find that he committed himself in favour of Eton education, which is segregational and selective, and against Eton education, because he said selection was nonsense and, I think, that segregation was utterly discredited. He said that almost every child in the country should be taught Latin and that he had sent his child to a highly selective and segregated school. I am the last person to accuse the noble Lord of talking nonsense, which is the charge he levelled against me; but when he comes to read in Hansard tomorrow morning what he said, he will find it very difficult to explain to his Labour Party friends, his old Etonian friends, or his Roman Catholic friends, exactly what he meant.
I turn from the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, and simply say, in conclusion, that the question of a selective system at the age of 11-plus, and this question of comprehensive schools have a long way to go before we arrive at a final solution. Many of the comprehensive schools in the country at the present time have not even a full complement. It is far too early to talk of imposing that principle on the rest of the country. If you decide to wait and see how the best secondary modern schools turn out—and they are turning out very well indeed—and how the best comprehensive schools and grammar schools turn out and not jettison these as something really "half-baked" and going off at half-cock, you can have some hope of reducing your educational policy to something which is both educationally sound and morally responsible.
8.29 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the debate is ending in a very different tone from that in which it started. The noble Viscount paid me the compliment of saying that I had addressed the House in a restrained and, I hope, reasoned manner. I wish that I could have said the same to him, because I have a great affection

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for him and I should have liked to repay the compliment. If only he had made at the beginning the speech he has just made we should have had the opportunity of replying to it in some form. However, I am going to exercise great restraint. I addressed the House for a considerable length of time at the outset, and in some measure of compensation I now merely beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

MID-WESSEX WATER BILL
Brought from the Commons (pursuant to the Resolutions of July 31 last); read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
TEES CONSERVANCY BILL [H.L.]

  GLAMORGAN COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
  Reported, without amendment.
  House adjourned at half-past eight o'clock.