Sitting of 30 April 1959

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  CALVINISTIC METHODIST OR PRESBY TERIAN CHURCH OF WALES (AMEND MENT) BILL [Lords]
  Read the Third time and passed, with Amendments.
  LANCASTER CORPORATION BILL [Lords] (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday next at Seven o'clock.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MALDIVE ISLANDS

    Negotiations
    Mr. P. Williamsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he is now in a position to make a further statement about negotiations with the Maldivian Government.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. C. J. M. Alport): I would refer my hon. Friend to my Answer to a Question by the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) on 13th April.
    Mr. Williams: Can my hon. Friend say whether he is completely satisfied that the state of negotiations at the moment guarantees complete security to our base on the island?
    Mr. Alport: Our present position on the island is based on the agreement reached in 1956. We are hopeful that the negotiations, which are only suspended, will be resumed, and it is certainly our object that they should be
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    brought to a conclusion satisfactory both to the Maldivian Government and to ourselves as quickly as possible.

  COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS

    Senior Economic Officials (Meeting)
    Mr. Leatherasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will instruct the United Kingdom delegation to the forthcoming Commonwealth Economic Conference to invite the Conference to study plans for the joint Commonwealth approach to the European Common Market.
    Mr. Alport: The meeting of senior economic officials representing Commonwealth Governments, to be held in London starting on 5th May, will exchange views on general trade and economic subjects. They will have available the views of the United Kingdom Government set out by my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General in his speech on 12th February when he outlined the problems attendant on such an approach.
    Mr. Leather: Would my hon. Friend agree that if we are not able to work out some kind of co-ordinated plan for a Commonwealth approach to the Common Market, there is every reason to think that the Common Market countries will then work out individual deals with the individual members of the Commonwealth, and that the United Kingdom will be left with the worst of all possible worlds? Will he please give this most serious attention?
    Mr. Alport: I do not think that will necessarily happen. When my right hon. Friend pointed out the difficulties to which I referred in my Answer, he also said that he was not ruling out a discussion with the Commonwealth on this matter, and continued:
    "The Government do not rule out any suggestions in these circumstances, but they are concerned that the real difficulties involved should be well known "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th February, 1959; Vol. 599, c. 1383 and 1384.]
    I can assure my hon. Friend that we are in close contact with Commonwealth Governments on this subject.
    Mr. Paget: Will these consultations provide an opportunity for discussing the

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    question of hides, and ascertain whether the Commonwealth countries are prepared either to let us have hides or to do without a preference? There is a great shortage.
    Mr. Alport: The agenda of this conference, which takes place normally each year, is not published, but I have no doubt that many aspects, such as the one the hon. and learned Gentleman has referred to, will be considered at it. I cannot, however, give an undertaking that this subject will be on the agenda.
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he has any statement to make about a meeting of high-ranking Commonwealth officials to discuss trade and economic questions.
    Mr. Alport: This meeting will be held in London for three or four days starting on 5th May and will be attended by senior officials representing all Commonwealth Governments. The meeting is part of the continuing process of Commonwealth economic consultation and will provide an occasion for an exchange of views on general trade and economic subjects. The range of subjects discussed will be broadly similar to that covered at the Montreal Conference last year.
    Mr. Bottomley: Can the Under-Secretary of State say whether, in addition to the discussions arising from the Montreal Conference, an opportunity will be provided to brief the President of the Board of Trade before his forthcoming tour to the Soviet Union?
    Mr. Alport: As I have said in answer to a previous supplementary question, the nature of the agenda for these discussions is never divulged, but the question of trade between the West and the Soviet Union is constantly under consideration.
    Mr. Bottomley: But the Under-Secretary particularised and said that the discussions would be concerned with matters arising from the Montreal Conference. Since then the Prime Minister has been on a special trip to the Soviet Union and has emphasised the importance of Anglo-Soviet trade. The Commonwealth has a right to express its opinion on this matter and surely this meeting of Commonwealth officials is the right occasion for doing so?
    Mr. Alport: There would be an absolute right on the part of those representing all Commonwealth Governments to raise any subject they wished. The right hon. Gentleman has pointed out the importance of this subject, and it is reasonable to suppose that, if any Commonwealth Government wishes to raise the matter, it will be discussed at that meeting.
    Mr. Leatherasked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will instruct the United Kingdom delegation to the forthcoming Commonwealth Economic Conference to invite the conference to study the plans of Mr. St. Clare Grondona for commodity price stabilisation, details of which have been supplied to him.
    Mr. Alport: Commodity problems were fully discussed at Montreal and Commonwealth policy was set out in the Report of the Conference. United Kingdom officials had available on that occasion some of the material published by Mr. St. Clare Grondona in support of his ideas.
    Mr. Leather: While in no way minimising the immense difficulties of this problem, may I ask my hon. Friend if he would agree that if we could find such a scheme to stabilise commodity prices it would be one of the most effective ways in which this country could aid the Colonial Territories, and that Mr. St. Clare Grondona's ideas are, at the very least, worthy of the most serious study by the Conference?
    Mr. Alport: I can assure my hon. Friend that the views of Mr. St. Clare Grondona were brought to the attention of the Department some months ago and they were given serious study, as indeed have his views which have been set out at intervals over earlier years, but there are very grave difficulties with regard to the application in practice of the proposition to which I think my hon. Friend referred. However, I fully agree that it is of the greatest importance to the primary producing countries of the Commonwealth that we should find some means, if it is possible, of achieving stability. It was agreed at the Montreal Conference that the problems of each commodity in turn would be examined by the countries concerned.
    Mr. Bottomley: While I appreciate that the Commonwealth Relations Office officials have examined this matter most carefully, may I ask the Under-Secretary if he would agree that there would be advantages in the Commonwealth officials and Ministers as a whole examining Mr. Grondona's proposals?
    Mr. Alport: When my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury was asked about this he made it very clear that the views had been considered by the Treasury as well. If any official representing any Commonwealth Government at the Conference wishes to raise these points, it is perfectly open to him to do so.
    Mr. Dugdale: While I have every sympathy with this gentleman's ideas, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that the Labour Party's schemes for bulk purchase achieved much of what is desired in the Question and that if they were reintroduced it would be a very great contribution to the solution of the problem?
    Mr. Alport: If the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that there is an analogy between the Labour Party's schemes and the ideas of Mr. St. Clare Grondona, I do not think he is suggesting that they would be easily acceptable to the Government of this country.

  EDUCATION

    Proposed Secondary Modem School, Hartland
    Mr. Bonham Carterasked the Minister of Education why he has rejected the proposal of the Devon County Council to include a new secondary modern school at Hartland in the county's school building programme.
    The Minister of Education (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): I have not included the proposal in the building programmes for 1960–62 because I am not satisfied that this is the best way of providing secondary education for the area. The question is being further discussed locally.
    Mr. Bonham Carter: Is the Minister aware of the special circumstances at Hartland? Before taking this decision, which overrules the recommendation of the county council which had the full
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    backing of the rural district council, the parish council, the Hartland School Association and the manager, did any of his officials look at the circumstances on the spot?
    Mr. Lloyd: There seems to be a difference of opinion locally, because I believe the local education authority took a different view.
    Mr. Bonham Carter: Is the Minister aware that the great mass of opinion in Devon, and in Hartland itself, is united on this matter? Did he take into account the social value of a school in a very remote and scattered community? Is he aware that some of the children will be travelling as much as three hours a day by bus if his suggested plan goes through?
    Sir Henry Studholme: Is it not a pity that the hon. Member for Torrington (Mr. Bonham Carter) should have made in this connection remarks in his constituency about Government expenditure calculated to mislead the electorate?
    Mr. Lloyd: I think the real question is whether there should be a new school at Hartland or expansions in Bideford and Bude, and this is an important matter which will be discussed further locally.

    School, Whiddon Down (Closure)
    Mr. Bonham Carterasked the Minister of Education what reply he has sent to the resolution signed by sixty-three parents and members of the community at Whiddon Down objecting to the proposal of the Devon County Council to close Whiddon Down school.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: I have acknowledged this objection to the education authority's proposal, and as soon as I have considered the arguments on both sides and reached a decision, I will inform the objectors and the authority.
    Mr. Bonham Carter: Will the Minister bear in mind that a considerable sum of money has been spent on the school recently in re-equipping it, that in view of this it would seem a pity to close it down, and that it is a two-teacher school with thirty-five pupils and, therefore, there is much to be said for keeping it open?
    Mr. Lloyd: I will bear that in mind.

    New Schools, West Riding
    Sir L. Ropnerasked the Minister of Education how many new schools have been opened in the West Riding of Yorkshire since 1st January, 1956.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: Thirty-five, Sir.
    Sir L. Ropner: Can my right hon. Friend say how many places were provided in the thirty-five new schools?
    Mr. Lloyd: Not without notice.

    Church Schools (Financial Assistance)
    Mr. P. Williamsasked the Minister of Education whether he will now make a further statement about the basis of future financial help to be given to Church schools.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: I cannot do so yet, but I will make an announcement as soon as possible.

    Teachers (School Meals Duties)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Education whether, in view of the circular issued by him on 20th March, 1959, he has yet completed his discussions with representatives of the authorities and the teachers on the duties of teachers in connection with the provision of school meals; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: Yes, Sir. I have asked local education authorities to consider ways of reducing the burden falling on teachers, and I propose to review from time to time the way things are going.
    Mr. Janner: While I appreciate the reply which has been given by the Minister, may I ask him to be good enough to go into the various proposals which have been made to him by teachers who, in many cases, find the burden an extremely heavy one, and ensure that relief is given as speedily as possible?
    Mr. Lloyd: We are making progress along the lines of the circular.

    N.A.T.O.
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Minister of Education why he authorised the distribution to 5,000 schools of copies of a Ceremonial Hymn to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, published by the British Atlantic Committee, together with a message from M. Spaak requesting that
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    the hymn should be sung at school prayers on N.A.T.O. Day, 4th May.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: The distribution was made by the British Atlantic Committee on its own responsibility. It first suggested to local education authorities that schools might wish to commemorate the tenth anniversary of N.A.T.O. and offered copies of the two documents if they wished to have them. The Committee neither required nor sought my authority for this.
    Mr. Warbey: While I thank the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that the so-called hymn asks for a divine blessing on N.A.T.O. and includes the words:
    "Let N.A.T.O. grow in might,
    And put its foes to flight."?
    [Laughter.] This would be ridiculous if it were not rather serious. Does the Minister consider it fitting that young children should be involved in an attempt to glorify and sanctify a military alliance, especially in bellicose terms?
    Mr. Lloyd: I must point out that this does not involve my responsibility, as I showed in my earlier Answer. Perhaps the hon. Member might like to bring the matter to the attention of the vice-presidents of the British Atlantic Committee, who are, with the other members of the Committee, responsible for the document. I see that the first three are Lord Boothby, Lord Layton and Lord Pakenham.

    Teachers, Cornwall
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Education the prospects of increasing the quota of teachers for Cornwall, in view of the unsatisfactory way it is working there so far as some primary schools are concerned.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: None at present. I do not consider that the distribution scheme is bearing unduly hard on this authority.
    Mr. Hayman: Will the Minister take into account the Halwin school in my constituency, which is an all-age school with 170 children and only five teachers, including the headmaster, and will he bear in mind that there are eight similar schools in the county? Will he also bear in mind the wide age range in country schools which have pupils of both sexes

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    and will he see whether he can do something better for the county?
    Mr. Lloyd: I appreciate the problem. We are making progress in this matter. I appreciate very much what the authority is doing.

    Advertising Association (Illustrated Lectures)
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
    19. Mr. F. NOEL-BAKER: To ask the Minister of Education what advice he has given to domestic science teachers and to headmasters and headmistresses with regard to offers made to them by the Advertising Association to deliver illustrated lectures on the benefits of advertising in schools.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I apologise for the obscurity of the last part of the Question. The sense would be better if it read:
    "to deliver illustrated lectures in schools on the benefits of advertising."
    Mr. Lloyd: I apologise in advance if my Answer does not precisely meet the altered Question. It is as follows:
    None, Sir. I am not aware of any such offers.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Will the Minister look again at the offers which have been made by the Advertising Association to provide in school time lectures, with film strips, for children on the benefits of commercial advertising? If I give him some details privately, will he look into the matter?
    Mr. Lloyd: Of course I will, but this is primarily a matter for the local authorities and the schools themselves.
    Mr. M. Stewart: Does not the Minister agree that it is not desirable that the school organisation should be used for purposes of this kind?
    Mr. Lloyd: I would have to consider that matter rather carefully. I believe that the schools get a good deal of benefit from information supplied from a wide variety of sources.

    Maladjusted Children (Hostels)
    Mr. Fitchasked the Minister of Education how many hostels there are in England and Wales for maladjusted children.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: Forty-three approved by me.
    Mr. Fitchasked the Minister of Education what consideration he has given to the need for a uniform salary scale for wardens of hostels for maladjusted children.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: I regard this as a matter for the wardens and their employers.
    Mr. Fitch: Does the Minister agree that people engaged on such important work as this should have professional status, and that pay and conditions of service should not be left to the generosity or otherwise of local authorities?
    Mr. Lloyd: Quite a small number of people are involved, and there would be considerable difficulty in laying down standards in this matter.

    Teacher Training
    Mr. Fitchasked the Minister of Education if he is aware that the Professional Board of the School of Education of Manchester University has passed a resolution deploring the way in which he has so far ignored the functions of area training organisations in the preparation of detailed proposals for the expansion of training colleges, and expressed its opinion that before any plans were announced regarding the future expansion of teacher training facilities he should consult the appropriate area training organisations; and, in view of the fact that these complaints are justified, whether he will undertake in future to consult such organisations on this matter.
    Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: I am aware of this resolution, which was not endorsed by the delegacy of the School of Education. I have not, in fact, ignored the area training organisations in the way suggested in the Question, and I believe the Professional Board would now acknowledge this.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Standard Motor Company, Coventry (Tracto Plant)
    Mr. Edelman asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the anxiety felt by the workers of the Standard Motor Company, Coventry, in connection with the proposed sale of the Banner Lane tractor plant to an overseas company; what authority
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. F. J. Erroll): No application under the Exchange Control Act has been made for the sale of this factory.
    Mr. Edelman: Is not the hon. Member aware that it is notorious that this potential take-over bid has been under consideration? Is not he aware of the resolution passed by the workers of the Standard Motor Company, who are extremely concerned that they should not be bought and sold without consultation? Is he further aware that their anxiety relates to the whole question of investment, employment and export policy passing out of the control of their company and into overseas hands? Finally, is he aware that if this take-over bid and similar ones succeed, more than half the British motor industry will have fallen into North American hands? Does he consider that to be a good thing?
    Mr. Erroll: I could not hope to answer all those supplementary questions. All I would say is that there is no application at present before us and, therefore, there is nothing for the Government to consider within their powers.

    Civil Service Pensions
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has considered the letter, dated 5th April, 1959, from the Aberdeen Branch of the Civil Service Pensioners Alliance (Scotland Branch), sent to him by the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North; what steps he has taken or plans to take to improve the standard of living of these pensioners; and what reply he has made to the submissions made to him by the deputation from this body which he received on 23rd February, 1959.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. E. S. Simon): The hon. and learned Member sent the letter to me on 17th April. In reply I have referred him to the announcement in my right hon.
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    Friend's Budget speech that proposals for legislation to improve public service pensions will be put before the House shortly. The deputation I received on 23rd February was from the Public Service Pensioners' Council, on which the Civil Service Pensioners Alliance is represented. I undertook to draw their representations to the attention of my right hon. Friend, and I did so.
    Mr. Hughes: I thank the Minister for his reply, which I received after I had put down the Question, but does he realise that these unfortunate people are caught between Scylla and Charybdis in not only having reduced pensions but also having to face an increased cost of living? In the steps he contemplates taking, will he bear that fact in mind?
    Mr. Simon: Yes, but there is no question of their having reduced pensions. The pensions have been increased twice since 1951. There is no question but that the cost of living has increased since the last Penions (Increase) Act, and it was for that reason that my right hon. Friend made his announcement.

    Housing the Arts (Report)
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has considered the Arts Council Report on Housing the Arts; what assistance he will give towards the three schemes for London for which priority is recommended; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Wileyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what action he proposes to take on the Report of the Arts Council on Housing the Arts in Great Britain.
    Mr. Grimondasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a further statement on the housing of the arts in Scotland.
    Mr. Simon: Three parts of the Arts Council's Report on Housing the Arts were published on 23rd April, covering London, Scotland and Wales respectively. A further part, covering the rest of the United Kingdom, will be published shortly. My right hon. Friend shares the view of the Arts Council that time should now be allowed for public discussion of the Report as a whole, and has at present no statement to make.
    Mr. Robinson: Does not the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that those recommendations in the Report which concerned London were extremely modest, and that the least that can be expected of the Government is that financial assistance will be given towards the implementation of the erection of the three buildings which are proposed?
    Mr. Simon: The important thing now is to list the various recommendations over the country as a whole in order of priority. My right hon. Friend has asked the Arts Council to give him its ideas on that. In addition, it is important that opinion in the country as a whole, and not least provincial opinion, should be ascertained when the next section is available.
    Mr. G. Jeger: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman promise the House that there will be an opportunity for discussion before any action is taken with regard either to this Report or the one on the provinces—which is expected shortly—in view of the controversial nature of the Report on London and also the controversial attitude of the Arts Council regarding opera and other activities?
    Mr. Simon: I know that there are differing views as to priorities in this field, and my right hon. Friend will take account of all the different views put forward—
    Dame Irene Ward: And will the Arts Council?
    Mr. Simon: —but any Question as to a discussion in this House should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal.

    Passport Fees
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, exercising his powers of approval under Section 8 (2) of the Fees (Increase) Act, 1923, he will ensure that any revenue accruing from the increase of the passport renewal fee is treated as an excess receipt under Section 2 (3) of the Public Accounts and Charges Act, 1891.
    Mr. Simon: No, Sir, because the proceeds of passport fees are already taken as Appropriations in Aid in accordance with a Treasury Minute of 1892.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that I had to put down this rather complicated Question in order to ask him for an assurance that the 2d. Stamp Duty on cheques will not be increased on the ground that that Stamp Duty was fixed in 1918, in view of the fact that passport fees were increased because they were said to be unrealistic since they had been fixed in 1931? In view of the danger that the Stamp Duty on cheques will be increased because it was fixed in 1918, may I have an assurance on that score, in the light of the quite idiotic action of the Foreign Office in increasing passport charges?
    Mr. Simon: I answered my hon. Friend's Question, which was related to the treatment in the Estimates of these extra-Exchequer receipts, and I prepared myself with a considerable amount of background knowledge on that aspect. I did not anticipate the supplementary question that my hon. Friend has now asked me, and I am therefore compelled to ask her to put down a Question on the subject.
    Dame Irene Ward: I cannot.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Will not the Government consider withdrawing altogether from this very stupid decision to raise the cost of passports, in view of the obvious reaction in the House and outside, and also in view of the need to do everything possible to facilitate travel between countries.
    Mr. Simon: No. The merits of the matter were dealt with by my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on Friday, admirably and conclusively. The reaction in the country has by no means been universally adverse, and the right hon. Gentleman may have seen the admirable comment in the Economist this week. In effect, it comes to this: there is no reason why those who can afford to travel abroad should be subsidised in this respect by the general body of taxpayers, many of whom cannot afford to go abroad.
    Dame Irene Ward: On a point of order. In view of the fact that my hon. and learned Friend has invited me to put down a Question, may I ask him if he is aware that the Question I sought to put down on the matter has been refused by the Table? What position am I in

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    now, having been asked by my hon. and learned Friend to put down this Question?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Lady had better try again.
    Mr. Jay: In view of what the Financial Secretary has just said, can he say whether, when the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreigns Affairs said the other day that these funds were being raised because we need revenue, by "we" he meant the Foreign Office or the Exchequer?
    Mr. Simon: The Government always speak with one mind but through various spokesmen.

    Government Contracts
    Miss Burtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when deciding with which civilian firms Government contracts are to be placed, what consideration is given to the employment situation in those areas where such work will be carried out; and if he will make a statement on Government policy in this matter.
    Mr. Simon: In the placing of Government contracts preference is given to Development Areas and areas of high unemployment. The list of such areas has recently been revised. It is the Government's policy to continue to operate these arrangements.
    Miss Burton: I had hoped that this Question might have been answered by the Prime Minister to whom it was originally addressed. May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to note that the word in the Question is "employment" and not "unemployment"? Is he aware that shop stewards and, I believe, progressive employers in Coventry are very disturbed about the way in which, because of a contraction in Government orders, skilled machine tool operators are unable to find jobs where they can exercise their skill? Will he ask his right hon. Friend to take up this matter with the Prime Minister? Is he aware that it arose about two years ago in connection with another firm, and that when expansion does come—if ever it does under this Government—these men will not be able to get back
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    into employment which will enable them to exercise their skill?
    Mr. Simon: That supplementary question goes considerably beyond what I understood by the original Question on the Order Paper. Perhaps the hon. Lady will allow me to discuss it with my right hon. Friend.

    Distribution of Industry (Financial Provisions) Act, 1958
    Mr. P. Wellsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many applications for loans or grants have now been made under the provisions of the Distribution of Industry (Financial Provisions) Act, 1958; how many have been granted; what sum is involved; and what is the average time taken far the Development Areas Treasury Advisory Committee to reach a decision.
    Mr. Erroll: Two hundred and fifty-one firm and eligible applications have been received under this Act of which 38 have so far been granted. The total sum offered as assistance amounts to £1,039,620. The time taken to investigate and reach a decision on each application depends on the nature of the proposals. It may be as short as a month or extend over three or more months.
    Mr. Wells: Can the hon. Gentleman say how many of these applications refer to firms contemplating going to the Isle of Sheppey and whether he has received complaints from any of them about the unreasonable delay in reaching a decision on their applications?
    Mr. Erroll: I shall be glad to furnish the hon. Gentleman with information regarding the Isle of Sheppey if he will put down a Question. Some firms feel that the time taken is rather long, but when it is explained to them why investigations have to be so thorough, they usually understand the need for the time taken.
    Mr. Jay: Can the hon. Gentleman state roughly to which areas these thirty-eight approvals relate?
    Mr. Erroll: I do not think I could do that off the cuff, but I should be glad to answer a Question if the hon. Gentleman will put one down.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Woollen Goods (U.S.A. Quota)
    Mr. C. R. Hobsonasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what representations have been made to the United States Government about the reduction of imports into that country of wool and woollen piece goods from Yorkshire;
    (2) if he is aware of the hardship which will be caused to the Yorkshire woollen industry by the United States Government's action in reducing woollen imports; what action he is taking in this matter; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Wadeasked the President of the Board of Trade what further representations he has made to the Government of the United States on the subject of the wool tariff quota, in view of the decision of the United States Government to reduce the quota in 1959, thus discriminating against the British wool textile industry and impeding the expansion of international trade.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Sir David Eccles): I am aware of the hardship caused by this quota, though it is not applied against us in particular. We shall continue to represent the case for British wool exports to the United States Government.
    Mr. Hobson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this matter was referred to by his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when he was in Washington dealing with the trouble which arose over the electricity contracts? Can it be stated, through diplomatic channels and otherwise, that the one thing the United States Government seem determined to do is to prevent this country from earning its living and that the United States prefer to give us charity rather than opportunities for trade?
    Sir D. Eccles: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister mentioned trade matters, but the subject of his conversation is confidential. We must remember that our exports to the United States are steadily increasing.
    Mr. Wade: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that this wool tariff quota creates one of the worst forms of discrimination and would seem contrary to
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    the policy of increasing international trade which we understand is favoured by the United States? Secondly, on a specific point, as last week the right hon. Gentleman referred to a possible review of the situation on some long-term basis next year, can he say whether representations have been made to get a more satisfactory long-term arrangement and whether he sees any prospect of that being brought about earlier than next year?
    Sir D. Eccles: "Discrimination" usually means that the arrangements patently are designed to give better opportunities to one country than another. We are of the opinion that this was not the purpose of the United States Government, though it so happens—for reasons which hon. Gentlemen know—that the Japanese get a better chance under this system than we do. We understand that the United States are looking at the long-term situation and we shall continue to press for a change in the system as soon as possible.
    Mr. Hobson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this decision affects a section of the wool trade which has been fortunate in having neither unemployment nor short-time working for many years, namely, the fine numbered yarns section, and that the decision will affect that market and will probably cause short-time working in a part of the woollen industry in the West Riding which has never experienced it before? Is it not a shocking state of affairs when they benefit Japan, their ex-enemy, against their ally, Great Britain?
    Sir D. Eccles: The hon. Gentleman is not quite correct. This is not making the situation any worse. We shall have as much chance this coming year as last year, in fact a little more, in the high-quality cloths; and I am glad to say that at the moment the rate of activity in Yorkshire is somewhat higher than it was a year ago.
    Commander Donaldson: Is not it a fact that in the high-quality goods market which has been referred to, the imposition of a tariff does not benefit the manufacturers in the United States, who do not make the kind of cloth which we make in Scotland—and which presumably is made in the West Riding—and that it does a great deal of harm to

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    the good relations between Britain and the United States in the higher grade wool trade?
    Sir. D. Eccles: It has peculiar effects, but we must remember that the quota relates only to 5 per cent. of the United States production, and therefore there is a large proportion of the United States industry left as it was.

    Enamel Holloware Industry
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now prepared to give special assistance to the enamel holloware industry to compete with the Hong Kong market.
    Sir D. Eccles: No, Sir: the value of imports of enamel holloware from Hong Kong was less than £1,000 in the last three years taken together.
    Mr. Thomas: Surely the Minister is aware that that is a most misleading Answer, that the damage to this industry is not caused by imports here but by the fact that the Hong Kong industry has taken our markets in Africa; and that the whole basis of the trade is being undermined by much cheaper products? What does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do to help the industry?
    Sir D. Eccles: The hon. Gentleman is quite right in saying that trade is declining because apparently consumers now prefer plastic or glass or aluminium holloware—
    Mr. G. Thomas: Abroad.
    Sir D. Eccles: No, in the home market, too. It is also true that the Hong Kong industry, the plastic holloware industry, has come into the overseas market. I cannot help to regain an overseas market which we have lost.

    Leather Trade
    Mr. Holtasked the President of the Board of Trade what assistance he is considering giving the leather trade, in view of unemployment in the industry.
    Sir D. Eccles: None, Sir: the rate of unemployment in the leather industry is under 3 per cent.
    Mr. Holt: Is the President aware that a number of very large and recently re-equipped tanneries have had to close
    1458
    down? Since he has established a precedent in the treatment of the cotton industry, are we to understand that this will apply only where the industry is a large one and not to small industries?
    Sir D. Eccles: The number of persons previously employed in the tanning industry in Bolton who were out of work last month was 18, of whom 13 were temporarily unemployed. I do not think that the case of the tanning industry is on all fours with the textile industry.
    Mr. Paget: Does the right hon. Gentleman always have to wait until the accident has happened? Is it not quite clear, owing to what has been happening over hides, with the Russians stepping into the market and buying about 70 per cent. of Commonwealth production, that there will be great trouble, even though it has not immediately expressed itself in terms of unemployment? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman, for once, be in front of the gun?
    Sir D. Eccles: I think that on reflection the hon. Gentleman will see that it would be impossible for the Government to help every industry which said that at some time in the future it thought it would be unemployed.

    Cotton Industry Reorganisation
    Mr. Haleasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in paying compensation for redundancy in the cotton textile industry, payment will be limited to firms continuing to operate or whether a firm will be able to qualify for assistance if it expects otherwise to have to close down.
    Sir D. Eccles: It is proposed that all firms in the cotton industry shall be eligible for assistance, whether or not they close down.
    Mr. Hale: I am glad to hear that, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the very best equipped mills have been forced to close partly by their obligations to meet hire-purchase instalments or other payments on new machinery? Does not the plan mean that the best equipped mills could receive no compensation and no help and might have to be closed to make way for worse equipped mills, which will receive the maximum amount of compensation?
    Sir D. Eccles: All those things will have to be looked at very carefully in detail by the agency, but clearly the best equipped mill is the kind of establishment which will be greatly helped when the surplus capacity is taken out. I think that will make a great difference to its prospects.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that many of us who are anxious to judge fairly whatever proposals the Government have to make are handicapped in doing so because at the moment the proposals have been made—I hope he will forgive me for saying so—in a vague and ambiguous form? Is it his intention to publish a White Paper so that the scheme can be exactly defined and so that we may all begin to understand what it is we are talking about.
    Sir D. Eccles: There is a written Question down by my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, South (Mr. Green) making the same point as that which the hon. Member has just made. To it I have answered,
    "Yes, Sir. I hope to do so before the Whitsun Recess."
    Mr. J. T. Price: Can the Minister give a clearer indication of who is to decide or to take the initiative in deciding which firms are to go into liquidation and to scrap surplus capacity? Is it to be the firms themselves, who may come to the conclusion that, having received some Government finance, they should enter some other industry which is of no vital consequence to the country, or is his own Department to take part in this process of selecting those with surplus capacity, because that is the fundamental basis of any scheme which is to the advantage of the country?
    Sir D. Eccles: I believe that I made it clear that this is not a compulsory scheme. In other words, no firm will be forced to close unless it cares to do so. The sections of the industry are preparing schemes of contraction for their part of the industry. We have to look at those schemes to see whether they are adequate. In coming to the conclusion as to the amount of contraction which will be done they will have the help of the agency appointed by the Cotton Board.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has been some misunderstanding because of the misuse of the word "compulsory"? Should we be right to assume that while there will be no compulsion on any firm to close down, as he has just said, the levy will be statutory and compulsory on all mills in the industry? Would that be a correct interpretation of the situation?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes. The industry has to finance one-third of the cost of the redundancy scheme, the whole of the cost of compensation of workpeople and three-quarters of the cost of re-equipment. I understand that it wishes to do this by a compulsory levy, for which we shall make provision in the Bill.

    Goatskins (Import Duty)
    Mr. Holtasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will remove the import duty on foreign raw goatskins.
    Sir D. Eccles: No, Sir. On 16th March an application for the removal of this duty was rejected in order to preserve the Commonwealth preference.
    Mr. Holt: Does not the President of the Board of Trade agree that it is unreasonable to keep this duty on if supplies from the Commonwealth have in fact gone to other countries and are not now available to this country? Why, therefore, will he not agree to remove this duty so that the industry can buy its raw material at less cost from some other source?
    Sir D. Eccles: The preference margin is of importance to the Commonwealth and it is in fact guaranteed to India, Pakistan and South Africa. We cannot break these guarantees without expecting to pay something very large in exchange, and I do not think it would be a good policy to do so.

  EUROPEAN SECURITY
  Mr. Healeyasked the Prime Minister to what extent he has explained his proposals for the limitation and control of armaments in Europe to the Chancellor of the German Federal Republic.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I have nothing to add to what my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary said on 15th April

  1461
  in answer to questions on this subject and to what both my right hon. Friends said in the foreign affairs debate on 27th April.
  Mr. Healey: Is not the Prime Minister aware that the German Chancellor has said that these proposals were presented to him in so vague a form that he was unable to come to any conclusion about them, and that the French Foreign Minister yesterday made a similar remark in the French Assembly? How does the Prime Minister expect to be able to negotiate with the Soviet Union in this field, which so many of us feel to be far the most hopeful for the negotiations, if even the allied Governments do not understand what he wants?
  The Prime Minister: All these matters have been discussed, first in the Working Group, and yesterday and today in Paris, and I am glad to say that very satisfactory progress has been made in bringing the allied position into harmony.
  Mr. Gaitskell: In view of the fact that Dr. Adenauer said in his broadcast:
  "I have just now once again had a very careful check made on whether Great Britain has ever made a precise proposal—and one can only discuss precise proposals. I have established that this theme has always been mentioned in only a very vague manner, so that discussion of it was not at all possible"
  does not the Prime Minister feel that it is necessary to clear up for British public opinion exactly what was put to the German Chancellor by the British Government?
  The Prime Minister: No. My discussions with the Chancellor were confidential. The purpose of the Working Group and the Foreign Ministers' meeting and the next meeting of the Foreign Ministers is to bring all these matters into a harmonious form, and I think that we have succeeded in doing so.

  STRONTIUM 90
  Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the latest levels of strontium 90 detected in Scotland.
  The Prime Minister: Reports on levels of strontium 90 for the whole of the United Kingdom which are published periodically and placed in the Library of the House include measurements of samples taken in Scotland.
  Mr. Thomson: Can the Prime Minister say whether the incidence in Scotland is heavier than in other parts of the United Kingdom? Is he aware that, after having studied the statement which he made on Tuesday, one is left with the feeling that there is a great deal of scientific uncertainty about the threat of strontium 90? In order to give the negotiations at Geneva a chance of making faster progress in an atmosphere of greater good will, will he make an announcement on behalf of Her Majesty's Government that we are willing to give up our tests?
  The Prime Minister: The Question related to certain measurements in Scotland as related to the rest of the country. If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question as to the precise figures, I will try to give them. I hope that the House will not expect me to answer supplementary questions on these scientific matters off the cuff. I have not the technical knowledge to do so. On the wider question, I think that was debated at length in the foreign affairs debate.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Since the statement circulated by the Prime Minister shows that the rate of deposition of strontium 90 has doubled since May, 1958, and can go no further than saying that its concentration in human bone is likely to remain below that at which immediate consideration would be necessary, will the Prime Minister say whether steps are being taken to try to establish more precisely how great the danger is?
  The Prime Minister: That again is a question which I should like to see on the Order Paper. I was asked a Question about Scotland. I do not think it fair to draw me into these large and difficult subjects of scientific discussion on a wholly different question. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will put down a Question?
  Mr. Gaitskell: My supplementary question was not a technical one at all. I fully sympathise with the Prime Minister in his unwillingness to answer technical and complicated questions off the cuff. I am asking what further research is being undertaken in order to establish the true facts.
  The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman will give me notice of that, I will try to answer it in detail.
  Dr. Summerskill: The Prime Minister will recall that on Tuesday he said he would make a statement in answer to a number of Questions put down on this subject. Will he include in his statement the position about the genetic effects? Is he aware—this is a fairly simple question; I would not ask him a complicated technical one—that the threshold dose, so far as the genetic effect is concerned, has not yet been considered by the specialists to be any specific one? In other words, any amount of radioactivity has a certain genetic effect. Would he comment on that?
  The Prime Minister: On Tuesday, in four columns of very close type in HANSARD, I made a statement which I was asked to make. I would be very willing to try to answer any precise questions upon this subject, such as this one, and I anticipated that the Questions on it would probably appear next week on the Order Paper. I would propose to arm myself with the best information I can, because I am anxious not to make a statement to the House on this matter except after close and careful consultation with my scientific advisers.

  PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (SPEECH)
  Mr. Peartasked the Prime Minister if the speech of the President of the Board of Trade delivered in Hanover on 26th April, 1959, represents Government policy.
  Sir L. Plummerasked the Prime Minister whether the speech of the President of the Board of Trade at the opening lunch of the Hanover Trade Fair represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Liptonasked the Prime Minister whether the speech made by the President of the Board of Trade in Hanover last Sunday represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister whether the speech made by the President of the Board of Trade in Hanover on Sunday, 26th April, represented the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Wadeasked the Prime Minister whether the statements made by the
  1464
  President of the Board of Trade at the Hanover Industrial Fair on the subject of British Press represent the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister to what extent the President of the Board of Trade's speech in Germany, urging his hearers to disregard the anxiety about German militarism and political intransigence voiced by the British Press, represented the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if the recent speech made at Hanover, Germany, by the President of the Board of Trade represented the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister: Such reports of this speech as I have seen contain various expressions of personal opinion but no statement of Government policy.
  Mr. Peart: Is the Prime Minister aware that the President of the Board of Trade has virtually apologised for one statement, but that on the same weekend he said in Germany:
  "I am not bothered at seeing Britain pushed out of second place by West Germany in the list of the world's exporting countries"?
  Will the Prime Minister instruct Her Majesty's Ministers when visiting foreign countries not to run down and denigrate British effort and British institutions?
  The Prime Minister: With regard to the first part of the supplementary question, I understand that my right hon. Friend did not touch on this matter in his speech. I believe that on another occasion he said that we had no need to be jealous of German performance in the export field because there was room for both countries.
  Sir L. Plummer: Is the Prime Minister aware that when the President of the Board of Trade was speaking in Hanover he accused the British public of frivolity? He said that all the British public was interested in was racing and football. Is it right and proper that he should make comments of this kind and in circumstances which show that he is so much out of touch with British public opinion? Is he the right Minister to send to Moscow?
  The Prime Minister: I would certainly not dare to accuse the hon. Gentleman of

  1465
  frivolity. He is one of the most serious-minded men I know. He is often inaccurate but he is never amusing. In general, I must say that I think that my right hon Friend's visit to Bonn has done a great deal of good.
  Mr. Lipton: Will the Prime Minister give an undertaking that he will resist all efforts, from whatever quarter, to remove his right hon. Friend from the Board of Trade? He is worth a million votes to the Labour Party where he is now.
  The Prime Minister: I have no doubt that the hon. Member is anxious to replace him, but I am afraid he will have to replace the whole Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] That may or may not happen; but, as long as I am head of a Government, I shall base it on loyalty to my colleagues and shall be encouraged by reading the reminiscences which are being so well circulated.
  Mr. Hamilton: Does not the Prime Minister agree that it was a really incredibly foolish speech, insulting everybody in the land, from the highest to the lowest? It is not the first one which the President of the Board of Trade has made. He has dropped more bricks than would build a house. Would the Prime Minister give an assurance that, in order to bring more discreet remarks from the President of the Board of Trade, he might reconsider replacing the present incumbent by Lord Montgomery?
  Mr. Wade: With regard to the reference to the British Press mentioned in my Question, may I ask the Prime Minister whether he would agree that, whilst Members of Parliament and Ministers are, of course, free to criticise the Press and the Press is free to criticise Members of Parliament, it is as unwise to condemn the Press as a whole as it would be to condemn Members of Parliament as a whole?
  The Prime Minister: I think that is a very balanced statement.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Does the Prime Minister appreciate that what public opinion is concerned about is not so much the habit of his right hon. Friend of yielding to his distorted sense of a neat thing to say—that, after all, is his own funeral, at least we hope it will be—but with the fact that he was urging Germans to
  1466
  disregard anxiety expressed here at the ugly signs of a revival of German nationalism and militarism? The Tory policy of appeasing German nationalism and militarism in the thirties landed us in the Second World War, and we do not want that again.
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that was the intention or character of my right hon. Friend's statement. Surely what we have to do in present conditions is to try to keep a sensible attitude. There are dangers, of course, in all countries. There are extremes and dangerous forces, sometimes merely harmless eccentrics and sometimes sinister forces, but what we have to try to do is to keep a balanced view, to keep our N.A.T.O. alliance in being and to face the quite difficult times which lie ahead of us.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can the Prime Minister tell us if the President of the Board of Trade is going to Russia to look for trade or for Hanoverian blood? If this is the sort of speech the President of the Board of Trade makes after a glass of sherry, what sort of speech is he likely to make after a couple of vodkas?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member is very experienced in both, I am quite sure. Since he and I travelled together in Russia recently, I shall convey his warnings against excessive vodka to my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Will the Prime Minister arrange for the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to accompany the President of the Board of Trade to Moscow so as to keep the President of the Board of Trade from both vodka and the Press?
  Mr. Hamilton: In view of the extremely unsatisfactory and frivolous nature of most of the replies of the Prime Minister, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

  SUMMIT CONFERENCE
  Mr. Fellasked the Prime Minister whether he has yet arranged a meeting of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers to discuss the attitude of the British Commonwealth to the forthcoming Summit Conference.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I fear this would not be practicable.
  Mr. Fell: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his Answer is somewhat disappointing? Is he aware—as I am sure he is—that when he goes abroad and negotiates as for Britain and Britain only, or mainly for Britain, he is negotiating from weakness, but that when he negotiates abroad for Britain as the centre of this vast Commonwealth he is negotiating from great strength? Would not it add greatly to his strength and be a sort of world demonstration of that strength were he to invite the Commonwealth Prime Ministers to meet him before he goes to the forthcoming Summit Conference?
  The Prime Minister: I appreciate the purpose that lies behind the question of my hon. Friend, but in fact the organisation of a Commonwealth Prime Minister's Conference is a big undertaking. It has to be carefully timed with all the engagements and different conditions in the, now many, countries of the Commonwealth. As I said in my statement on 15th March, after my visits to Bonn, Ottawa and Washington, I am in personal touch with the heads of Governments of the Commonwealth. There is every possible exchange with them, as well as a regular continuing process of information which goes on through the normal channels.

  MINISTERS (SALARIES)
  Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Prime Minister, in view of the fact that the pay of permanent secretaries will greatly exceed that of Ministers in charge of Departments, under the latest arrangements, what proposals he has for increasing the pay of Ministers.
  The Prime Minister: None, Sir.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: While appreciating the diligence and skill which permanent secretaries show in carrying out the work of their Departments, may I ask my right hon. Friend to bear in mind that responsibility is one of the major factors to be taken into account in paying remuneration and that, therefore, it may be constitutionally wrong in the long run for Ministers to be paid some £2,000 a year less than permanent secretaries? Will he say whether in the long run this position ought to be put right?
  The Prime Minister: We made various adjustments in the salaries and allowances of Members of Parliament and
  1468
  Ministers just two years ago. I do not think that there is quite an analogy between Ministerial salaries and those of the Civil Service, which is a lifetime employment in a definite career and which is the sole career of the permanent secretary. We have, therefore, to try to see that the heads are paid remuneration which will be to the benefit of the Civil Service and have some regard to remuneration outside and all the conditions which Lord Coleraine's Committee took into account. I therefore feel that, although there is a sort of point to be made that a Minister is paid less than the permanent head of the Department, I do not think that is quite the basis on which the two matters should be judged.

  RADIOACTIVE FALL-OUT
  Mr. Grimondasked the Prime Minister if the figures from the United States of America as to the dangers of fall-out have now been fully studied; and with what result.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to my statement on 28th April about radioactive fall-out.
  Mr. Grimond: I have read that statement, but there seems doubt about the whole subject—for instance, whether we are aware of the nature of the Argus experiments in America. Can the Prime Minister say whether there is complete agreement between our scientists and American scientists on the dangers about which both are somewhat vague and, if so, what is the date of the most recent information from America on which this statement is based?
  The Prime Minister: The subject is dealt with in paragraph 5 of the statement and perhaps to some extent in paragraph 6. Of course, it is not possible to get all scientists to agree on everything, any more than it is possible in other sets of experts. We are in close touch with our American friends and their scientists and we try our best to get a collective view.

  MESSRS. C. A. PARSONS (T.V.A. CONTRACT)
  Dame Irene Wardasked the Prime Minister on what date he received from President Eisenhower, following upon his recent official conversations in the United

  1469
  States of America, confirmation that the award of a contract by the Tennessee Valley Authority to Messrs. C. A. Parsons, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, would be upheld; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will remember the reply which I gave her on 25th March. I have no reason to believe that this award is not firm.
  Dame Irene Ward: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the information has now been released that the C. A. Parsons' contract is signed, sealed and delivered? Will he accept the appreciation of a great many people that in the conversations he had when in the United States he was at any rate able to get that rather difficult situation put right?
  The Prime Minister: I am very glad to hear that that is the case.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 4TH MAY—Supply [12th Allotted Day]: Committee. Debate on Fuel and Power Policy.
TUESDAY, 5TH MAY—Report stage of the Mental Health Bill.
Consideration of the Import Duties Order, relating to Ornamental Pottery.
WEDNESDAY, 6TH MAY—Conclusion of the Report stage and Third Reading of the Mental Health Bill.
Consideration of the Agriculture Ploughing Grants Scheme, and a similar Scheme for Scotland.
THURSDAY, 7TH MAY—Supply [13th Allotted Day]: Committee. Debate on Traffic Congestion in Large Cities, until seven o'clock.
At seven o'clock the Chairman of Ways and Means has set down two opposed Private Bills for consideration.
FRIDAY, 8TH MAY—Consideration of Private Members' Bills.
It is proposed to adjourn for the Whitsun Recess on Friday, 15th May, and to meet again on Tuesday, 2nd June.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS ON GOING INTO COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
  Development Areas
  The Rev. LI. Williams: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates I shall call attention to Development Area policy, and move a Resolution.
  Aid to the Aged
  Mr. Frank Allaun: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates I shall call attention to the need for increased aid to the aged, and move a Resolution.
  Civil Service
  Mr. Leavey: I beg to give notice that of going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates I shall call attention to the Civil Service, and move a Resolution.
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [11TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1959–60
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That a further sum, not exceeding £20, be granted to Her Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1960, for the following services connected with Youth Employment Problems with particular reference to Apprenticeship and Industrial Training Schemes, namely:—

  Civil Estimates, 1959–60

  £

  Class VI, Vote 9 (Ministry of Labour 10 and National Service)

  10

  Class IV, Vote 1 (Ministry of Education)

  10

  Total

  £20

  YOUTH EMPLOYMENT PROBLEMS
  3.38 p.m.
  Mr. Alfred Robens: I am sure that the Committee is grateful to the Opposition for choosing the problem of youth employment for discussion today because while, at present, it appears only as a cloud the size of a man's hand, if it is not dealt with it could rapidly become, in the next few years, a storm which could overwhelm our industrial abilities as a nation.
  Hon. Members might first like to express appreciation to the Committee which the Minister of Labour appointed, under the chairmanship of his then Parliamentary Secretary, the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr), for the very useful Report which it produced and, which I am sure, will be the basis of many speeches today. Secondly, I should like to express appreciation to the economist, Lady Gertrude Williams, who produced for us a splendid document, "Recruitment to Skilled Trades", after intensive research, which again will aid
  1472
  many hon. Members in considering the problem before us today.
  We have to recognise that we have, first, the problem of finding employment for young people leaving school —a problem due to the general recession in trade. I will not go into any argument as to whose is the responsibility, because we have had many debates on the subject, but it is a fact that there has been this stagnation in production which, naturally, has a very great effect upon the employment of school leavers. Secondly, we have the problem that we are not training enough skilled workers for the years ahead. Added to those two problems we have what is commonly referred to as the bulge in the number of school-leavers, which is beginning and which will come upon us in full force in the next few years.
  While we all welcome the announcement by the Ministry of Labour this morning of the reduction in the number of unemployed, the figures nevertheless show how difficult it is for school-leavers to find jobs. We are all aware, from the matters raised with us by constituents, of the difficulties that parents are having and the anxious time that they are going through, in providing the right kind of employment for their boys and girls who are leaving school. We all hope that, as a result of more stimulus within the economy, the over-all problem of unemployment will ease considerably, although I am bound to say that I am a bit disappointed that the reduction in total unemployment is only 20 per cent. I had expected it to be considerably more.
  Perhaps I might say, as an aside, that that bears out the forebodings expressed in the House that the probable result of increased mechanisation and the better use of new techniques in industry, combined with the fact that we are not expanding our economy quickly enough, would be that the hard core would probably be higher than some of us thought at one time.
  What is the future of the country? I do not believe that anyone could have had a sharper reminder of the change in the pattern of industry than the announcement made by the Government last week that they have to take special measures to deal with the decline in the cotton industry. On Monday, we shall be discussing the coal industry. Here again, we shall possibly see a contraction

  1473
  in another very big, basic industry. Both industries were once the biggest employers of labour and upon them we reached the eminence of greatness in the world. We see the decline of those industries. I shall not now argue the why or the wherefore of the decline, but, from the factual standpoint, will look ahead a little and will ask what is to be the future of Britain.
  I express the view that the future of the country is bound up not with the proper utilisation of our indigenous raw materials, of which we have, unfortunately, few, coal being the biggest, but with the proper development and use of the most important and most valuable material that we have, our manpower. Therefore, I start the debate on that basis.
  Taking into consideration all that has been said by the Committee over which the hon. Member for Mitcham presided, and to whom we are obliged—as we are to all who served on the Committee—I see the future of Britain as being based on the development of our technical skills. If we are to survive as a nation of 50 million people in an island that cannot possibly feed itself, we must sell our skill and brains rather than our brawn. That is easy to say, but it nevertheless means that we have to take very firm action to ensure that our people are highly skilled and able to turn to the new fields of electronics, the development of nuclear energy, of transfer machines and everything else that will make ours the greatest industrial nation in the world. I believe that the inherent genius of our people can produce that result.
  We must organise our manpower and give it the facilities to get the sort of education that will enable it to go into those new fields. Therefore, we do not make any apology for drawing attention to the fact that we seem not to be preparing the plans we shall need if Britain is to be a great industrial nation. Although we may not, in international affairs, be of first rank, because we are no longer the nation with the greatest naval and military power, we must, because of our industrial power, always be regarded as a nation whose opinions count when we sit in the international conference chambers. That follows from our industrial strength and the contribution we can make to world economy. Our word will be taken as having the same
  1474
  value as in the days when Britain ruled the seas.
  We have, then, the problem of the bulge and of finding the right number of places for our skilled workers. I would like to deal with the skilled worker problem first. As I read the Report of the right hon. Gentleman's Advisory Council, by 1970 the number of people who will obtain professional qualifications as scientists and technologists must be doubled. Therefore, it is to be assumed that we shall probably produce about 20,000 qualified scientists and technologists a year. For all the army of scientists we shall have produced, there will be required an army of technicians. Our educational programme and the development of our technical education intends to produce what is at present estimated to be required, and that is about five or six technicians to every technologist.
  Even if we get our planning right and produce the right number of scientists, technologists and technicians with the right qualifications, they cannot possibly, by themselves, hope to achieve the development of our economy unless they are supported by a vast army of skilled craftsmen. It is no use producing first-class scientists and technologists and the army of technicians which supports them unless there are, in the rear, the skilled craftsmen who have to work out into a machine what came on to the drawing paper.
  It is to this aspect, and not to the question of training scientists, technololists and technicians that I want to pay particular attention. We cannot hope to achieve industrial greatness unless we have the support of the skilled craftsmen in industry, and that covers the great bulk of our working-class population. I will go further and say that if we fail to train the skilled craftsmen we shall become a third-class industrial nation. I would regard that as a tragedy not only for us here, but for Europe and the world at large. It is, therefore. right that we should focus our attention upon this problem.
  Having carried the Committee with me as far on the need for the training of skilled craftsmen, perhaps I might move to the question of the bulge and try to show objectively the whole problem with which we are all concerned. We come to

  1475
  this special problem, which is only for the short but very vital period of the bulge in the school population. The number of children reaching 15 years of age today is about 16 per cent. higher than in 1956, but by 1962 the number of school-leavers will not be 16 per cent. higher but 52 per cent. higher than today. If we take the years after that peak, say, 1962 to 1965, we shall still have an average increase of about 35 per cent. in the number of school-leavers for whom jobs will have to be found.
  During the last few years we have been taking about 100,000 15 to 17-year-old school-leavers a year to be apprenticed as skilled craftsmen. That has meant that a very large number of school-leavers have not become skilled or been given the opportunities of skilled training, and that is serious. About 36 per cent. of school-leavers are being apprenticed, 1 per cent. are going into the professions, 7 per cent. into commercial and clerical work, but no less than 56 per cent.—over half of all the boys and girls leaving school at 15, 16 or even 17 years of age—are going into unskilled jobs, or jobs that are, at the most, semi-skilled. The House of Commons cannot face that situation with equanimity.
  As a result of the bulge in the numbers of school-leavers, it has been estimated that to provide some skilled training, even on this basis—it will not improve the percentage of the school-leavers who will get skilled craftsman education, but will merely keep the figures at this present percentage—we shall have to take into the skilled apprenticeships about 135,000 school-leavers a year. This, of course, is the crux of the whole problem, and is borne out by the Report of the Carr Committee—if I may refer to it in those terms instead of continually referring to the hon. Gentleman's constituency. In any case, it is known as the Carr Committee, and I am sure that however long the hon. Gentleman is in this House his name will be mentioned many times in connection with that report, for which he was largely responsible.
  The last Ministry of Labour Report said that in some industries, notably engineering, the number of apprenticeships was insufficient to absorb all the available candidates. In the last few months there has been a good deal of evidence that there are not enough places
  1476
  to train boys—boys, particularly—who have the qualifications to be skilled craftsmen. I do make that distinction. I do not refer here to boys who would like to be skilled craftsmen, but who have not the educational qualifications.
  There are not enough vacancies to take advantage of the number of boys with the educational qualifications to become skilled craftsmen. What is worse, from all the information that I have gleaned, it appears that the number of prospective opportunities of such employment is going down rather than increasing. That is a very serious matter indeed.
  There has been a good deal of evidence to show that this is the case. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) mentioned one case to me which I thought, while it was an individual case, illustrated the terrible social conditions, quite apart from economic conditions, that this situation produced. After all, we cannot always look at this problem purely as an economic one, nor can we always think of manpower as something like machinery. We must always remember that human beings are involved. Boys and girls have social problems when they leave school, and their social problems in that period of adolescence are much worsened if they cannot get a job—and if they cannot get the kind of job that they would like.
  The case mentioned to me by my hon. Friend concerns a boy named David Slack—an apprentice pattern maker. The boy felt that he had the opportunity to become a skilled craftsman which would ensure his future but, because of the depression, the firm employing him closed. He was dismissed. The local labour exchanges have tried not only in the Cardiff area, but all round it, to see whether they could fit him in so that he could continue his apprenticeship. They have failed. My hon. Friend took the matter up with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, He was very helpful, and brought to bear the whole resources of the Ministry to try to find this boy—who, with his parent's consent, was willing to leave home and go anywhere in the country to be a skilled pattern maker—a continuation of his apprenticeship, but, to everyone's regret, there is not a vacancy.

  1477
  I cite this case only because I think it not a bad thing to bring into the hard statistical study of the subject some human reference. I am sorry for this boy, whom I do not know. He has tried his best to be a good pattern maker, but now has to change all his ideas for the future. His type of case can be multiplied hundreds of times. Therefore, when we are discussing these problems, we must remember lads like that, and remember, too, that we are dealing not only with an economic problem that concerns us as a country but with a very human problem which bites deep into the hearts and homes of our people. For that reason, what I have to say is based on this human aspect as well as on the well-known views, that we all share, of our ability once again to be in the van of industrial progress.
  We have this situation in towns other than those well-established towns like Cardiff—and I choose Cardiff only because of a personal association with my hon. Friend. The story could be repeated elsewhere. Incidentally, referring to Cardiff, 37 per cent. of the school-leavers who are fitted to be apprentices, and who want to be apprentices, find that there is no opportunity for them to become apprentices. Some, like the boy whom I have just mentioned, having spent two or, perhaps, four years as apprentices, now find their apprenticeships broken because their firms have closed.
  As I say, I refer not only to established cities like Cardiff, but, among others, to the new towns. There, the problem is rather different, and it must not be overlooked, as it is more than likely that we shall develop the new town idea. Without wanting to weary the Committee with a lot of statistics, I can summarise all the information I have about the new towns by saying that in such places as Harlow. Corby, Stevenage, Crawley, and others the birthrate is higher than anywhere else in the country. As a result, they will have a proportion of school-leavers higher than the national average, but because of the way the towns have been developed it is clear that of the school-leavers in them, only a very small proportion will be able to find an outlet for their natural wish to be craftsmen in the new towns in which they are horn. If they wish to become appren-
  1478
  tices and be trained, they will, inevitably, have to move outside.
  I mention that now, because towards the end of my speech I want to explain how we think the Government might move. For the moment, I leave that subject except to say that there is a special new-town problem. The number of school-leavers is much higher than the national average and, because of the new towns' peculiar situation, it is impossible for the towns themselves to provide the skilled apprenticeship training for all those boys and girls who may wish to take advantage of it. So far, I have tried very objectively—I do not regard this as a purely political matter—to set out what I think is the problem.
  The problem was recognised by the Ministry of Labour in setting up the Carr Committee. I am not disappointed with the results of that Committee's work, but with the fact that the Government seem to take the view that the Committee's recommendations are the last word on what we should be doing about the training of young people. I am not sure that it is absolutely right in this, but the Carr Committee decided, as a matter of principle, that
  "Our traditional apprenticeship system should form the foundation of future training arrangements."
  The Carr Committee's general policy decision was that the training of skilled craftsmen through apprenticeship courses is a matter for industry. I beg leave to differ from that conclusion, for some of the reasons which I have already expounded—the bulge and the problem that there are not enough places at present. Are we not asking industry to do a little more than it can possibly be expected to do?
  Representatives of the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress sat on the Carr Committee, but it must never be forgotten that the representatives of the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress have not got plenary powers over their organisations. They have to refer to their constituents, in one case thousands of firms and in the other case the large number of trades unions. These firms and trade unions are absolutely autonomous. They can take no notice whatever of the Carr Committee, or they can be co-operative and take some notice of it.

  1479
  As a result of the Carr Committee's Report, the Industrial Training Council was set up. The Industrial Training Council was based upon the premise that industry was the place to determine the whole concept of arrangements for training of workpeople, and collect and men through an apprenticeship system. The objects of the Industrial Training Council, to paraphrase the words of its chairman, are to keep under review recruitment and training—that is very good—and provide encouragement and help to industries in dealing with the training of workpeople and collect and disseminate information about training, including training practices in other countries.
  I emphasise "provide encouragement". It is a purely advisory body. Because of the way in which British industry is organised, I do not believe that a purely advisory council can produce the kind of results which will give every school-leaver an opportunity to be a skilled craftsman.
  I wish to refer to the experience of a London youth employment committee, which discussed the Carr Report and came to the conclusion that, if it was to increase the number of places in industry for boys and girls to learn some skills, it ought to have a conference. It invited the industrialists in its area to such a conference. One employer wrote back and said that he would not attend the conference. I do not cite this one employer as symptomatic of all the employers, but merely as a case. He said that he was in business to make money, not to train apprentices. At least, he wrote. Over 100 employers did not even reply to the invitation. So much for "encouragement" in that area.
  Again in the London area, 300 employers were invited to a conference to discuss the Carr Committee's Report on the need to train more boys for skilled jobs. Out of 300 employers invited to the conference, 10 turned up. Do right hon. and hon. Gentlemen think, therefore, that encouragement of industry to do things will achieve results if, in the London area, we have responses such as that?
  My view is that one cannot, except by persuasion or legislation, get industry to provide the extra training places required, many of them surplus to their present-day requirements. This is very im-
  1480
  portant. We are asking industry to train about 22 per cent. more apprentices than it needs. If one is in business, I suppose that one has to look at the dividends. Can one afford to take on 22 per cent. more apprentices than one needs? It is costly. Can one afford to do that on the basis of public interest?
  I have no doubt that many employers who have the public interest at heart would accept their social responsibilities and do it, but I do not think that enough employers will do so, or, indeed, have the means to do so, for a very good reason. Half of industry is conducted by firms with fewer than 500 workers, and a very large proportion of them have fewer than 100 workers. They cannot afford to do it, because the training of apprentices, from the figures which I have given, must represent between £15 and £20 million a year.
  Most of us who are interested in this matter have visited the large companies —Metropolitan Vickers, I.C.I., and others. We have been to their schools. They are the best schools to be seen anywhere, certainly in the Western world. I have seen the schools in France, Italy and Germany, but I have seen nothing better than the schools provided in the establishment of Metropolitan Vickers, I.C.I., and a group of other companies which I could mention.
  The large companies are not only prepared to do it, but I believe that they are ready also to accept the increased burden, because they realise that at some stage they will need these extra workers. However, it must not be forgotten that, because many firms will not train apprentices, the other firms will have to foot a bigger bill. There is a limit to what they can do.
  It is true that a large number of firms will neither train apprentices nor join the group schemes. Group schemes have been introduced to meet the special problem of the small firm. It is a co-operative educational system, but large numbers of firms simply take no notice. What do they do? I suppose it is the hard-bitten businessman who says, "It has nothing to do with me. If a fellow wants to be trained to be a skilled craftsman, that is his 'pigeon'. Let him find the best way to do it. When I want skilled craftsmen, I will pay another 1s. an hour over the odds and take my skilled craftsmen from firms who have paid to train them."

  1481
  That is not exercising a proper social conscience, but, nevertheless, that is what happens. This is a hard, workaday world in which people have different views on these matters of social responsibility. It is our task in Parliament to take notice of these things and realise that people are human, with all the human frailties. It is our job in Parliament to try, either by persuasion or even by legislation, to make those who will not fulfil social responsibilities come into line with all the rest.
  That brings me to the concluding part of what I have to say in opening the debate. First, we have a situation in which firms with training schemes—the kind of firms I have described—are absolutely inundated with applications from young people whose qualifications are good enough for them to enter an apprenticeship scheme. We have a situation in which many firms are not fulfilling their obligations, and we have, over all, the national requirement, which I tried to put as dearly as I could at the beginning, that, unless we do this job, we shall become a third-rate industrial country.
  I believe that the trade unions have a responsibility here. It has been said that we cannot provide more places for skilled apprenticeships because the trade unions have a ban upon more than a certain number of apprentices being accepted, and they want a certain ratio. I have investigated this as objectively as it is possible to do, and I have found that in the printing trade, certainly, and in the shipbuilding industry, with particular reference to welding, that is so. The number of apprenticeships is strictly limited. Everywhere else—and this represents the bulk—there is not a great amount of feeling. There is a good deal of flexibility. Prominent leaders of the trade unions, particularly those who sat upon the Carr Committee, say quite clearly that, given the right economic circumstances, that is, full employment and not unemployment, they would be prepared to use all their influence to help to change opinion in the trade union movement.
  The attitude in the trade union movement which has regulated the number of apprenticeships has prevailed not because the trade unions do not want apprentices trained, but because people are still living
  1482
  in the days of the 1920s and 1930s, when young apprentices were used as cheap labour to push out skilled men. It is this atmosphere which we must change. My view is that it can be changed only in a situation of full employment, security of employment, with a long look into the future, so that a man will feel secure for the rest of his life. Here again, therefore, there is Government responsibility.
  I do not want to take up time by reading various references, but from all that has been said by industrialists I think that the case is proved that very many industrialists will not play their part in training. Therefore, we must do something about it. We have also to look at the whole subject of apprenticeship generally. For example, is it really necessary for a boy to serve five years in every craft before he becomes a skilled craftsman? It surely cannot be, with all the multifarious work which we do in this country which calls for skill, that in every single case the magic five years does the trick. I cannot believe that that is right. Therefore, it seems to me that, even if we have to have another committee—perhaps, this time, the Wood committee —to examine some of these problems, it would be very well worth while. I do not think that five years is a magic number of years which turns a boy into a skilled craftsman. The period could be shorter.
  Also, I do not regard it as a good thing that we should restrict the entry into apprenticeship to those at school-leaving age, at 15 or 16. I am a Governor of the Queen Elizabeth Training College for the Disabled, at Leatherhead, a duty I am happy to share with the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary. The people we are concerned with are very badly disabled. In the course of taking hundreds a year into the college to train them so that they can earn their own living, we have found that, before we can start to train many of them, we have to give them some education. This shows that, certainly in some crafts, the boy who stays on for one more year ought to have a shorter period of apprenticeship, because he has the educational qualifications to move rather rapidly through the technical developments of his craft.
  In principle, I am with the Carr Committee. Let us have this training done within industry. I merely want to add

  1483
  something to that, which I shall explain in a few minutes. In the first place, we should be prepared within industry to take boys who have spent an extra year at school. This is advisable for two reasons. The first is the one I have already mentioned, that the boy who has an added educational qualification will match up to the requirements of the modern skilled craft more rapidly, perhaps, than others.
  Secondly, if boys remain at school, this will help to solve the problem of the bulge to some extent; it will spread it out a little. If we can arrange for boys of 15, 16 or 17 to remain at secondary modern schools it will spread the bulge and produce for industry boys of higher educational qualifications, so that, when the instructor takes them at the training school, he will find that they can more rapidly assimilate those things which are, perhaps, difficult for the boy who leaves at 15.
  I am sure that it would be worth while to examine whether it is necessary to have five years in every case. I make no judgment about it. I merely put the question. In some cases, five may well be right. In others, I am sure that three years would be enough. However, that is for industry to work out. Secondly, we must consider whether it is wise to restrict entry at a low age. I am perhaps jumping too far ahead. I do not expect industry to accept this for a moment, but it is my hope that our arrangements will be so flexible that, in time to come, a man of any age will be able to go through an apprenticeship scheme, change his job, and become a skilled worker.
  I believe that our pattern of industry will change so quickly—we are an industrial country and it will have to change quickly—that full employment cannot he guaranteed on the basis of a man doing the same job at the same firm all his working life. A man may have the skills to change his occupation two or even three times. If he has the skill, it will make it worth while, provide him with the increased wages which he wants and provide the nation with increased impetus in its economic development. I am not making the case now. I should not dream of inviting the Minister to go to industry and ask people to take on apprentices at 30 or even 40 years of age,
  1484
  but let us not put it out of our minds. Let us not think that it will not, one day, be necessary.
  When I read of the closures of pits, when I see contraction on the railways and in other industries, I wonder what is to happen to the man of 45 who loses his job, if only on the basis of redundancy. There is not another job as a railwayman or as a coalminer for him. Why should he not be given the right to take a three-years' apprenticeship, become a skilled worker, and start again on decent pay? Is not that the way to humanise industry and to make our contribution to the welfare of the nation as a whole economically? Is it not the best thing for the man himself, rather than that he should turn from being a skilled coal miner or skilled railwayman and become an unskilled labourer?
  That is bad. It is bad socially and economically. I hope that industry will look at the possibility of making the change. I say at once that, such are the inherent prejudices within industry because of what happened in the 'twenties and 'thirties, that it is not a possibility now. But we should not rule it out. Perhaps I have been too bold in suggesting it now, but I feel that we should give expression to it as an indication of where our thoughts are going over the years ahead.
  I come now to the next stage, which concerns the Government. As I said, I accept, broadly, the Carr Committee's dictum that training should be carried on within industry. It is good that a boy should feel industry around him and he working in an environment which is industrial and not wholly educational. Nevertheless, after having visited so many training schools in industry, both here and abroad, I cannot help feeling that, if the apprenticeship course is to be five years, we should probably produce very much better skilled craftsmen if, apart from the companies which are running really efficient schools to which I referred, we ran as part of our educational system for the first two years real training schools.
  We could give a boy who did not pass the 11-plus, the boy who finished school at 15, the extra educational qualification which, when he became 17, would give him the opportunity to become an apprentice and skilled craftsman. He would not

  1485
  feel himself discarded at 11 because he missed the 11-plus. He would not feel that, at 15, he had to go into the first dead-end job he came to because he had to earn some money.
  I propose to the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, since he is the Minister responsible, that he should first accept that industry will not do this job. I do not believe that industry can on its own. He should consider making a contribution to industry by using some of the redundant Royal Ordnance factories or using some of the redundant Ministry of Suply factories, as Cardiff wanted to do, where there is engineering machinery in abundance and where there are qualified people, and which, for the first one or two years, according to the syllabus set out, could be used for training boys.
  What would happen? Instead of the boy being apprenticed to a particular company, he would be apprenticed to the engineering industry as a whole, and after his two years' special training, which would be provided by the appropriate Minister—I have no doubt in association with the employers, the Ministry of Education, and so on—he would then be able to be selected by firms to do the three final years of this apprenticeship course.
  I think that this meets the problem of the small firm. There are some small firms which have a public conscience, but which. physically, just cannot do it. The group schemes are voluntary, and as a consequence are not particularly attractive. Some of them are well run, and some are not very well run. If the Ministry were to organise schools, utilising resources now lying idle in redundant factories all over the place, and provide proper instructors—and the Minister of Labour has much experience in this field, with his Government training centres—and if this could be agreed with industry, we should solve the problem which is so clear in our minds—that industry at present just cannot take on these 22 per cent. more apprentices.
  Let us take them. Let us level this bulge out, because in these two years within which this sort of scheme could operate, one would expect that the economy of the country will improve. We shall want these skilled workers in the future. No one would argue that we shall not need them; we shall, and they
  1486
  will be there and could be apprenticed to the firms afterwards.
  There is one other thing I want to say about this, which may not be very popular at present, again because of the long history of the matter. Apprenticeships have been going on for 150 years, and perhaps even longer if we go back to the days of the old guilds. Ideas are set. I cannot believe that in this modern age we cannot have an apprenticeship system which, at some stage, should show that someone has reached a certain qualification. At present, anybody who is lucky enough to become an apprentice does five years and is then a skilled craftsman, whether he is good or bad. The boy who has been a first-class apprentice and has become a skilled craftsman, has no measuring rod which, in effect, enables him to say, "I have passed this; I can do all that," enabling him to achieve a certain distinction.
  I would not want any examination process by which a boy is turned out after three years as a skilled craftsman. I do not think it is necessary, but I should like some form of certification which meant that when a boy passes he may proudly carry with him a recognised certificate to the effect that he has become a qualified skilled craftsman. This is very important, because if a boy, after two years, is not going to become a skilled craftsman, he could then make up his mind to be a semi-skilled worker, and the earnings of semi-skilled workers may be just as high as those of skilled craftsmen.
  It will not do a lot of good to push boys through a machine and say, at the end of five years, "You are now a skilled craftsman." In the field of electronics, for example, it will not do at all. We want people with qualifications. We have qualifications in every other field, and we should give these boys the higher status and dignity of such a qualification when they have gone through their term of apprenticeship and have become skilled craftsmen. Why should we not pick up those boys who cannot hope to become skilled craftsmen and turn them into channels in which semi-skilled people with knowledge will be useful, which would be a great asset both to themselves and to the nation?
  Mr. J. C. Jennings: The right hon. Gentleman presupposes in this scheme, which, I think, is admirable,

  1487
  educational training in conjunction with practical training. Does he not think that the machinery is already available through the technical colleges, the City and Guilds examinations, and the national certificate?
  Mr. Robens: If I thought that the machinery that is there is big enough to tackle this job I should not be putting forward a proposal such as this. It is because, looking at the size of problem, and after very mature consideration, I have come to the conclusion that the facilities are not available, that they will not be made available and that industry cannot do this job on its own, that I am pleading for a change from the principle enumerated in the Carr Committee's Report that this whole job must be left to industry.
  I do not believe that the existing facilities are big enough to deal with this enormous problem. Anyone who has taken the trouble to look at the figures must realise that unless the Government comes in on this training, we shall never do the job. Is anybody in this Committee prepared to accept the idea that 56 per cent. of our boys leaving school should be engaged in unskilled work for the rest of their lives in an industrial country like ours?
  We should keep unskilled work down to the absolute minimum. A skilled worker can do an unskilled job, but an unskilled worker can never do a skilled job. If a boy has been trained, and a terrible calamity befalls our country, he will be better able to fend for himself, if he is trained and skilled, than if he never had the chance to acquire it. I am pleading today that he should have that opportunity. I am sorry for the David Slacks of this country. So should everybody be, because of the human problem that is thrown up.
  Sir Spencer Summers rose—
  Mr. Robens: No, I cannot give way; I want to finish, because I have been far too long.
  In conclusion, I say that I do not believe that this great problem that faces us can be dealt with by mere acceptance of the main recommendations of the Carr Committee. I am asking the Government to look once again at this matter, not to interfere with industry, but to say to in-
  1488
  dustry. "We will make a contribution, from the educational standpoint, which would provide the finance and the places into which boys can go and be taught." I believe that if we did that we should then achieve what we seek to achieve—that the boys and girls who want to train for specific skilled jobs will have the opportunity of doing so.
  It may well be, and I would be in favour of this, that firms employing a small number of workers, and which find that they are incapable of providing the training themselves, ought to pay a levy towards the cost of such training. Nevertheless, if we are to deal with this problem it may well be that the bulk of the assistance, both financially and physically, in the provision of the old R.O.F. and Ministry of Supply premises, must be a Government responsibility.
  I like the Carr Committee's Report. I think that it is always a good thing to maintain, as far as we are able, the voluntary system, with both sides of industry working together towards a common goal. Having studied this matter as well as I am able to do, I do not believe that it is possible for industry to do this job on its own. I believe that Government aid is necessary if we are to tackle this job. I believe that the future of Britain must be built on making sure that our boys and girls become skilled workers and are not left to be unskilled workers. It is not only an economic problem, but a social and human problem, and I beg the Government to look at some of the proposals which I have made today.
  4.30 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service (Mr. Richard Wood): I have no doubt whatever that every hon. Member will agree that we have listened to a remarkable speech by the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens). It was forward-looking and objective and it showed both a grasp of the subject, which I knew the right hon. Gentleman possesses, and also a breadth of vision which has started our debate in a way in which I hope, it will continue. It was a most compelling and substantial speech. It was even more substantial than the last speech from the right hon. Gentleman to which I had the pleasure of listening in Standing Committee C yesterday. In fact, it was one of the finest speeches I have heard him make.

  1489
  This debate is clearly intended to concentrate on questions of youth employment and youth training for skill. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that we would welcome the initiative of the Opposition in proposing this debate. We agree entirely. I am particularly pleased, because it will give me the opportunity to do three things: first to make a brief comment on the April figures of unemployment, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned at the beginning of his speech; secondly, to try to put the youth employment position in perspective; and, lastly, to deal with some of the extremely important matters to which the right hon. Gentleman devoted most of his speech.
  The Committee will realise that my right hon. Friend answered a Question on Tuesday about the publication of the statistics of unemployment and employment during the month of April. There was special difficulty about the date of publication this month, because it is the custom to publish the employment and unemployment figures together, but this month the intervention of the Easter holiday led to substantial delay in collecting the employment figures. If we were to wait to issue the figures together, we could not have done so until 14th May. My right hon. Friend came to the conclusion that such a long delay was unjustifiable, particularly as the unemployment figures for April in Northern Ireland, which, I am glad to say, show a substantial decrease, have already been issued. Therefore, my right hon. Friend decided to make the figures public as soon as possible.
  To explain briefly some of the difficulties, the employment and the unemployment figures in the United Kingdom are taken on different dates and on a different basis. The unemployment figures represent a complete count of the register on a certain day and take into consideration certain later information so that the result is available during the following week. On the other hand, the employment figures represent only a sample count and take much longer. That was why my right hon. Friend reached the decision to publish the figures separately. The industrial analysis of the April figures of unemployment has not yet been published, but will be published within a few days.
  1490
  One other matter which I would like to add is that because of the subject of this debate and of the interest which the House of Commons clearly takes in these matters, today's figures include, for the first time, an analysis by regions of the unemployment figures relating to boys and girls. It is the intention that that analysis should continue in the future.
  The drop in unemployment in April is, as the right hon. Gentleman said, about 20,000. All regions except the North Midlands show a decrease. In the North Midlands, there are fewer wholly unemployed, but there is a fairly large—and, I hope, a passing—increase in the numbers temporarily stopped. This figure of 20,000 is made up of three different figures, which lend particular point to our discussion today. The adult unemployment figure has fallen in the last month by 28,000; the number of boys and girls unemployed, other than those who left school at Easter, has also fallen by 5,000, making a total fall of 33,000, against which must be offset the 13,000 Easter school-leavers who, on 13th April, were not yet in jobs. There is nothing new in this situation. In fact, there has not been an Easter in the last decade, and no August or January either, when the numbers of boys and girls unemployed have not temporarily increased. The crucial test, however, is how soon these boys and girls, who go on to the register three times a year, can be removed from it.
  Many anxieties have been expressed about the employment position of school-leavers. I emphasise that I am dealing with the employment aspect and not the other aspects which the right hon. Gentleman dealt with at the end of his speech. I should like to take this opportunity to give the most accurate appreciation of the recent position that I am able to do. To go back, first, to those who left school last Christmas. On 12th January this year— that is, about three weeks after Christmas-90 per cent. of the boys and girls who left school at the end of the Christmas term were at work. On 13th April, which is the date to which I have already referred, of over 118,000 boys and girls who left school at Easter, 12,785 were left without jobs.
  I thought that the Committee would be anxious to know what progress has been made towards placing these 13,000 boys

  1491
  and girls who on 13th April were unemployed. Therefore, in certain parts of the country, chosen not because they are favourable areas for employment, but in an effort to try to choose representative areas, I have asked for unemployment figures to see what progress we made between 13th April and yesterday. I am glad to find that the position is considerably improved for every area for which I have made inquiries.
  I will give, first, the figures for two Scottish towns. In the town of Dundee, which is not a very good employment area, as Scottish Members will be well aware, 85 boys and girls who left school at Easter were unemployed on 13th April, but the number yesterday was down to 31. That is a fairly substantial decrease. In Govan, the figures were 41 on 13th April and 11 yesterday. In Cardiff, which has featured much in our discussions, 104 were unemployed on 13th April and 39 yesterday, again a substantial decrease.
  The Committee will agree that these figures, including some for England—Burnley, 19 and 9, and Coventry 71 and 49—are encouraging.
  Mr. Percy Collick: Does the hon. Gentleman have the Merseyside figure?
  Mr. Wood: I do not have the Merseyside figure, but the hon. Member will, I think, agree that I have quoted some areas which are not at present in a good employment position. As I say, I have not the figures for Merseyside, but because I thought that the right hon. Gentleman would be interested in them, I collected the figures for his own constituency and for mine. In Blyth there is a slight decrease from 24 to 18. In my constituency, Bridlington, the decrease is from 8 to 5. I think that all these figures represent a quite considerable improvement. I do not think that it would be over-optimistic to assume from these figures, that the figure of 12,785 school-leavers who were unemployed a fortnight ago will be cut by about half.
  That represents quite an achievement and I think that the Committee would like to join with me in paying tribute to the work of the youth employment officers, who are largely responsible for this excellent result.
  Mr. Collick: To get the picture clear, we should bear in mind that on Merseyside the figure is approximately 2,000. The figures which the hon. Gentleman has given do not relate to Merseyside.
  Mr. Wood: I will do my best to get, as soon as possible, the comparable figure for the hon. Member. I have not tried to choose good employment areas in any way.
  Mr. B. T. Parkin: The hon. Member has spoken of this as the crucial test. I wonder whether he has available, or whether he could make available to the Committee before the end of the debate, an even more crucial test, namely, what proportion of the 5,000 by which the total was reduced have gone into apprenticeships or jobs which lead to training in a skilled occupation. Can he tell us how that percentage compares with the position a year or two ago? Some figures which the Minister gave me a little while ago are a little disquieting.
  Mr. Wood: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. Later, I will have to inflict some figures on the Committee, and these will give him some idea of what the position is in the apprenticeship field.
  Mrs. E. M. Braddock: Before the end of the debate, will the hon. Gentleman be able to ascertain how many of the 1,523 juveniles who were unemployed in Liverpool on 13th April have been able to obtain employment since?
  Mr. Wood: I will do my best to obtain that figure. I will make a note of what the hon. Lady has said. To clear up any confusion in hon. Members' minds, so far I have been dealing only with the numbers of Easter school-leavers on the register on 13th April and the reduction in the number of Easter school-leavers between then and yesterday.
  Apart from the Easter school-leavers, the total number of boys and girls unemployed—which, presumably, covers the figure that the hon. Lady has in mind—dropped by 5,000 last month—from 28,000 to 23,000. That represents a reduction of 17½ per cent. The reduction in Scotland of just over 1,000 represents exactly the same percentage. I am glad to say that the reduction in Wales, just over 900, represents a reduction of 25 per cent. since March. These figures show

  1493
  a considerable improvement in the position.
  I do not suggest that we can afford to be unconcerned while the figures remain at anything like their present level. I am sure that we were all impressed by what the right hon. Member for Blyth said about the frustration in the case which he mentioned and the personal frustration which each one of these figures represents for a boy or girl. I suggest, however, that taking the country as a whole, the experience of the last few months, particularly in view of the figures which I have given to the Committee, does not justify despondency about the prospects of absorbing these boys and girls in employment.
  The need for the most rapid reduction in what I may call the school-leaving registers after the end of the school terms in April, August and January is increased by the phenomenon of the bulge, which is known to all of us. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that for every two boys and girls leaving school in 1956 there would be three leaving school in 1962. As he said, there are considerable local variations. He drew our attention, in particular, to the position in the new towns, where some of the percentage increases are absolutely phenomenal. There are estimated increases of 500 and 600 per cent.
  On the other hand, if we are trying to get the matter in perspective, it is true to say that in 1956, which is the base year that I have taken for my comparison and which my predecessor's committee took for its comparison, there was a great scarcity of boys and girls reaching the age of 15 for the very good reason that few boys and girls had been born in 1941. It is easier to get a better idea by comparing the years 1957, 1958 and 1959 with the years immediately ahead. I think that such a comparison leads to the conclusion that the difference between the present situation and the peak of the bulge will be an increase of school-leavers of about 25 or 30 per cent. I think that that is the best way in which to view the problems ahead.
  I apologise for talking at some length about the bulge, but it is a most important phenomenon if we are to deal with the situation in the right way. It is important to remember that the high birth-
  1494
  rate of the war and post-war years followed a very low birth-rate in the 'thirties. I like to think of the bulge as making up a deficiency in our population rather than providing an awkward increase for us to deal with. We should remember that in the next ten years the number of girls reaching the age of 15 will be more or less equal to the number of women reaching the age of 60.
  Assuming those two ages to be roughly the ages at which people enter and leave employment, the bulge, as it relates to girls, will not make a great difference to the working population. The same would be true of boys had it not been for the last two wars, in which a great many men who would now be retiring were killed. The net increase of boys, together with the ending of National Service, will lead to an increase in the working population over the next ten years of about 1 million.
  Another way of putting the matter is that in the last five years boys and girls reaching the age of 15 represented 2·7 per cent. of the working population. In the next five years, they will represent about 3·4 per cent. Therefore, although the bulge is a very important phenomenon, it is a relatively small element in the working population.
  During the last ten years—the figures which I have are from mid-1949, to February, 1959—the working population increased from 22,771,000 to 23,903,000. an increase of well over 1 million. Therefore, even with a moderate expansion in the 1960s, such as we have had in the 1950s, it should be possible in most areas to absorb this extra 1 million in gainful employment. My conclusion is that the bulge has not of itself created employment difficulties, but, where they have existed through the economic situation, obviously the extra numbers leaving school have brought these difficulties into sharper relief.
  Therefore, the prospects for boys and girls depend on economic expansion rather than merely on the size of the bulge. The prospects of economic expansion have been dealt with in a number of our recent debates, particularly in the Budget debate by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and others, and the Government have given plenty of evidence of their firm intention, through the Budget and other means, to stimulate a high rate of economic growth. The

  1495
  Government's policy for the areas of higher unemployment has obviously also a most important significance for boys and girls entering the employment field, particularly those living in those areas.
  Their policy under the Distribution of Industry Act and under the industrial development certificates procedure has also been fully discussed and, in particular, was discussed in the debate which the right hon. Gentleman opened in March and in which my right hon. Friend spoke. There have been other steps, which are already well known, such as the building of advance factories and the grants to local authorities. The combined effect of these general measures to stimulate economic growth and the particular measures to bring assistance to high unemployment areas will together increase the total demand for labour from which boys and girls will both benefit.
  I should like to come on to the important matters which the right hon. Gentleman dealt with concerning apprenticeships. The first matter which I should like to try to deal with concerns his questioning the five-year period of apprenticeship and the rigidity of the age at which apprenticeships start. He suggested that a committee might be set up to deal with these matters and he made an extremely complimentary suggestion about the naming of the committee. My own impression, which, I think, if I may quote his words, he personally shares, is that these are matters far industry to work out.
  We have always taken the view that matters like this are essentially for consultation between both sides of industry, and it would certainly give me the greatest pleasure to see industry actively considering this matter with a view to reaching the kind of solution which the right hon. Gentleman suggested might be reached.
  Mr. Ian Mikardo: But the Government should start the ball rolling.
  Mr. Wood: The general employment prospects for boys and girls over the next few years in most areas do not, I think, for the reason I have tried to show, give great cause for concern, but I am bound to share the right hon. Gentleman's anxiety about whether sufficient apprenticeships and other opportunities of training are going to be available.
  1496
  I would refute one thing which the right hon. Gentleman said in his speech. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr), if he catches your eye, Mr. Storey, would take the opportunity to refute it. That was that the Carr Committee is considered to be the last word on this subject. I think that if it could be considered one of the first my hon. Friend would be delighted. I think we all agree that the Carr report is the basis and the statistical foundation for any advance which we must make in this subject at present.
  If I may quote two sentiments from that report, it spoke of the "increased need far skilled workers," which, clearly, has the unanimous agreement of the Committee, and of its belief in the "ability of industry to absorb the extra numbers available and to give training suited to their capabilities." That was the part of the conclusion, if I may so summarise a very large part of the report, which the right hon. Gentleman, I think, basically challenged.
  The hon. Member for Meriden (Mr. Moss), whom I see in his place, has asked me a number of Questions on these matters, and I know well his interest in them. A few months ago he asked me for a comparison between the numbers entering apprenticeships in 1957 and the numbers entering in 1958. I was unable then to give him the full figures. I said on that occasion that they would be available in April. It is now the end of April and I have the figures, and I think it would be best if I gave them to the Committee. They are not figures, I am afraid, which will give us any cause for pleasure or complacency.
  The figures in 1957 of those entering apprenticeships were 95,184, a little fewer than the 100,000 which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. The figures for 1958, last year, were 93,212, which very much underlines a great many of the right hon. Gentleman's points. We know that the numbers available for skilled training and the demands for it are still growing very quickly. The percentage which was already too low before is not, in fact, rising, but is going down.
  Mr. R. Moss: Are those figures for boys only, or for boys and girls, and are they comparable with the figures which the hon. Gentleman gave

  1497
  the House in reply to a Question, in which he mentioned apprenticeships and courses likely to lead to apprenticeships?
  Mr. Wood: I am sorry if I did not make that plain. Those figures are comparable with those I gave the hon. Member before and they include apprenticeships and learnerships and cover boys only; they are on the same basis as the figures I gave him previously.
  The hesitation of industrialists, particularly the small firms—and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth mentioned a number of the difficulties which the small firms have to face—to take on apprentices because they cannot clearly see the future ahead may be understandable, but it is none the less—and here I agree entirely with what the right hon. Gentleman said—most regrettable, because, as we see it, the present signs, together with the lessons of recent economic history, emphasise the temporary character of this recession. I really do not think that it is over-optimistic but rather highly reasonable, to see a prospect ahead of substantial economic advance in the 1960s.
  If we fail to ensure that a great many of these boys and girls—and the right hon. Gentleman suggested a figure of 30,000 or 40,000—who are worthy of apprenticeships now are given training opportunities then there will be not only the many evil consequences, which he mentioned, for those boys and girls themselves, but there will also be the economic disaster of not having them as skilled men -when the expansion comes. Furthermore, the shortage of skilled workers will not only obstruct the pace of economic advance in the future, but it is also highly likely to jeopardise the employment prospects of those at work. We have seen the shortage of skilled men in certain areas lead to employment difficulties even when other prospects were good. I am, therefore, quite convinced that it is to the long-term advantage both of employers and trade unionists to do what they can to increase the number of training places available.
  I have addressed a number of meetings during the last year, and I have found that the insufficiency of training places causes very general anxieties. The insufficiency of places has led to many suggestions for short cuts, arid the extreme suggestion is
  1498
  that industry will not do the job and that, therefore, the Government should do it. This suggestion, as I understand it, goes a good deal further than the one which the right hon. Gentleman made.
  If I may, first, examine the extreme position, I should like to make a comment on the rather more moderate suggestion which the right hon. Gentleman made to deal with the problem. I am quite clear that there are several reasons why the setting up of Government apprenticeship centres would be most unsuitable at the moment. The first and most practical reason is that the centres would take a considerable time to establish, and, while they were being established, the Government decision to take over industrial training could hardly be an encouragement to industry to increase the number of training places which are at present available. That is the first—the discouragement—argument.
  Secondly, and this impinges to a certain extent on the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion, neither the employers nor the Trades' Union Congress could be expected to be favourable to such a scheme as some suggest, and without the active enthusiasm of industry these apprenticeship centres would be in two dangers. First, they would be in the danger of training those whom they could not eventually place. Secondly, there would be the danger of giving the kind of training which industry does not particularly want. I cannot imagine a greater disaster than two such results where either those trained could not find work or would be unfitted for the kind of work that they would be later asked to do.
  I have met a good many people who are most anxious to look at this matter objectively, but who have been extremely doubtful—and they echo entirely the doubts expressed by the right hon. Gentleman—first, whether the environment of such training would be sufficiently industrial, and, secondly, whether such training could be sufficiently flexible to meet the very rapidly changing needs of industry.
  The right hon. Gentleman has made modified suggestions and I should like to examine very seriously the ideas that he has put forward to us today. The Industrial Training Council, which he mentioned, and the National Joint Advisory Council clearly would consider the suggestions. If anything could be done on

  1499
  the basis of what the right hon. Gentleman suggested, and such an advance could be made, we would do our best to try to take action along those lines. But I am quite convinced, as I think the right hon. Gentleman was, that there is no easy short cut to overcoming this difficulty which industry has of training a sufficient number of apprentices. I am quite convinced, even after listening to the right hon. Gentleman's speech, that the main burden of training apprentices is bound to rest on industry.
  The Government's part in this exercise, must be twofold. The first is to provide adequate facilities for technical education. It would be very much more enlightening to the Committee if I left further consideration and development of that subject to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education, who will wind up the debate. The Government's second role is the shaping of conditions in which industry can best do this industrial job.
  The first need, as has been said already, is for the development of a strong and effective leadership in industry towards the expansion of training opportunities in each individual industry. I am quite convinced that it is here that the Industrial Training Council, which was set up as a result of a recommendation of the Carr committee, has a most important part to play, and I should like to say a few words about the work done so far by that Council.
  The Council decided, as soon as it came into being at the end of last summer, that its first task should be to try to assess the part which industry was playing and to see how much training industry was doing. It therefore wrote to virtually every employers' association. By the end of last year that it was highly doubtful, to put it no higher, whether sufficient places would be provided to absorb all those who deserve them. Therefore, the Council's action has taken two forms. First, realising that the expansion of places available depends upon decisions taken by individual firms, the Council has done what it can to stimulate in all parts of the country local discussion of the Carr report. Secondly, it has asked that the report should have urgent examination by the employers and the trade unions.
  I am sure that the Committee would like to join in tribute to the work of the
  1500
  youth employment committees in all parts of the country, who have organised meetings to press the consideration of the Carr report on employers, trade unionists and educationists and others in their parts of the world. I should like to give a special word of praise to those youth employment committees, some of them in very difficult employment areas, who have managed to arouse in their areas a very keen sense of local responsibility on this question.
  While the Industrial Training Council as a whole was taking this action, the British Employers' Confederation was taking two very useful initiatives. The first was to recommend to all their constituents, and member-firms within those constituents, the need to train more workers and, indeed, more than would be necessary for foreseeable requirements. That has been very firmly and forcefully put by the Confederation to its constituents and member-firms.
  Secondly, at a recent meeting, the heads of their member-organisations agreed together to press employers to increase recruitment to skilled trades and to train in the years 1961–63, which cover the peak years of the bulge six for every five present apprentices. While the British Employers' Confederation has naturally concentrated attention on the peak of the bulge years, it is very well aware, as it can hardly fail to be, of the existence at present of potentially skilled workers who are not able to obtain apprenticeships. The Confederation and the Industrial Training Council, therefore, are making efforts to try to mobilise what I call the first essential, which is a strong lead from the centre. This strong lead must be translated into action by individual firms.
  The main responsibility, therefore, rests on the organisations concerned in each industry, but the Government has been considering for some time the possibility and the methods of helping industrial organisations to do this job, as I have
  informed the hon. Member for Meriden. During the last year, at meetings which I have attended, I have been given a wide variety of ideas on how the Government might help industry to do this job. After considering them all very carefully, I am convinced that one thing beyond all others stands out. It is the immensely important work that is being done, and

  1501
  can be done, by training-officers in industry.
  I am sure that they can play a very valuable part in the setting up and extending of training schemes and in giving all kinds of practical assistance to industry. The Government, therefore, are most anxious that the number of training-officers should be multiplied, and they have come to the conclusion that we should take some steps to prime the pump.
  We propose, with the agreement of Parliament. to make a grant in aid to the Industrial Training Council to further the appointment of training development officers either by the Council itself, or by employers' organisations, joint industrial councils, or other similar bodies.
  Mr. Mikardo: Including the local education authority?
  Mr. Wood: That would be a matter for the Industrial Training Council, who is to receive the grant in aid. It would have to consider how best to spend the grant in aid to achieve the objective that we have in mind.
  The purpose of such officers, as those connected with this matter already know, would be to stimulate the setting up and extension of training schemes whether in individual firms or covering groups of firms. The maximum of the grant in aid would be £75,000, which would be available over a limited number of years to concentrate its effect on the period in which the development of this training is most essential. The one condition made would that industry must contribute at least an equivalent amount for the same purpose.
  This grant is intended to be a once-for-all offer to industry to help industry deal with the potential available through these bulge years. I am convinced that it will be of considerable help to this problem.
  Mr. Frederick Lee: Is there to be any guidance to industry as to how this equivalent amount is to be collected? I have in mind that those employers who do the most work will be the ones who will help with this grant. Is there to be a way in which it can be made obligatory on all people who use skilled labour to contribute towards the grant?
  Mr. Wood: This is an important point, but I think that it is one that is best left to the Industrial Training Council to decide. The only condition we are laying down is that we are offering the Council £75,000 and we are requiring the expenditure of £150,000 on this attempt to get more training officers in industry.
  I have tried to state the apprenticeship position as frankly and fully as I can, and I have not in any way tried to disguise the anxieties that I feel and which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth expressed in his speech. I think that we are all anxious lest the objectives of the Industrial Training Council should not be reached and that there may be many boys and girls who feel frustrated by lack of opportunity. We are anxious, above all things, that if we fail in this endeavour both industry and the country may be severely handicapped in the years ahead.
  On the other hand, I have several reasons for optimism. First, I am convinced that compared with last year, immediately before the issue of the Carr report, the appreciation by industry both of the problem and opportunity of the bulge is quite different from what it was in 1958. This is partly due to the impact of the Carr report itself and the discussions to which that has led, stimulated immensely by a great many local youth employment committees. It is partly due to the strong lead which the British Employers' Confederation has given in this matter, and which has been accepted by its constituent members. I am convinced that there is a different atmosphere in industry on this subject compared with a year ago.
  More important, particularly in view of what the right hon. Gentleman said, there is a great difference from a year ago in the feeling of public opinion. Public opinion will be increasingly important in this matter. The public, rightly, will demand that we give these boys and girls the opportunities to which they are entitled. The third reason for optimism is that I believe that the grant that we expect to offer to the Industrial Training Council will lead to the appointment of more training officers, and, through them. to the widening of training opportunities in industry.
  Most important of all is that we are overcoming the discouragement to

  1503
  employers who trained boys and girls in the past of the uncertainty of what lay ahead. From the figures that I have suggested, and which my right hon. Friend suggested last month, it seems that the economic situation is improving—as my right hon. Friend suggested it would —rather better than seasonally. This uncertainty which made these decisions difficult for employers in the past is coming to an end. I am convinced that as the country's industrial future becomes clearer so will the conviction that it depends on training sufficient boys and girls now, and, what is often forgotten, on training them sufficiently well. It is no good increasing the number of people trained if we are not to improve the content of that training at the same time.
  This debate, started off as it was by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth, will achieve a most useful function by putting the spotlight on what appears now to be a problem, but which I am convinced, before very long, possibly within a few years, we shall regard as one of the greatest opportunities that industry has ever had.
  5.18 p.m.
  Mr. George Thomas: I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on having the pleasure of announcing to the country the granting by the Government of this £75,000. I believe that the Government are making a useful contribution which will help considerably in solving the problems that confront us.
  The debate was opened this afternoon by my right hon. Friend in a well informed and masterly survey of the apprenticeship problem in the country at the present time. Although I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, I feared at times that he was going to make my speech on Cardiff for me. Much as I enjoyed him making the points, I also like to make points when they concern the city I have the honour to represent together with my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan).
  At times I thought that the picture built up by the Parliamentary Secretary was over-optimistic. He tended to give the impression that this problem was largely being solved and we need not have undue anxiety about the scope of the problem or its likely length. I have no
  1504
  desire to do the Parliamentary Secretary an injustice, and if I am wrong I hope he will forgive me, but I want to refer in particular to some of our problems in Wales.
  I believe the change in the climate of public opinion as compared with a year ago is because the Press, in particular the education Press, has campaigned for some action by the Government on this question of apprenticeship because they were by no means satisfied that the Carr Report, welcome as it was, was in itself sufficient. Indeed, the fact that we have this problem is an indication that industry is not equal to solving the problem by itself.
  I was able to attend a meeting in the City Hall at Cardiff yesterday. It was a widely representative conference of employers, trade union representatives, educationalists and others, who were discussing this question with a view to helping both the Government and the youngsters. I was asked to convey this resolution to the House, which I will do now in order afterwards to devote myself to my own contribution to the debate.
  That meeting of 119 employers and trade union leaders in Cardiff yesterday passed the following resolution:
  "That this representative meeting of employers, trade union representatives, educationists and others convey to the Government their grave concern that young people are not being afforded sufficient opportunities for entry into apprentice training. The meeting also expresses the view that proposals contained in the Carr Committee's Report are not such as will provide sufficient opportunities for entry into apprentice training."
  The people who formed that conference were hard-headed business people and long-experienced trade union leaders. We have in Cardiff, as I believe throughout Wales, a special problem. On 16th February, The Times pointed out in its leading article that
  "Up and down the country firms report queues of youngsters waiting for apprenticeships. Unless they have done well as school their chances of being chosen are small, however skilful they may be with their hands. More and more of these youngsters are leaving school as the birth-rate bulge begins to have its effect."
  Also in the same article there is this statement:
  "It is three years since the Minister of Labour's National Joint Advisory Council set up the Carr Committee to conduct an inquiry into the training of young workers. It is about

  1505
  a year since the committee reported. Since then a National Apprenticeship Council has been set up. Numerous meetings have been held. …But the apprenticeship system is unchanged and the number of apprentices has declined."
  Despite the optimistic words of the Parliamentary Secretary's statement, the fact is that in Cardiff alone the number of boys who desired apprenticeships in 1957–58 was 488 compared with 417 for 1955–56, but the number who were unsuccessful last year were 174. We have this year a worse problem, and the youth employment officer, who is one of the leading youth employment officers in the country, supported by a progressive director of education, has told us that the length of time it takes to absorb youngsters leaving school in employment today, or certainly in apprenticeships, is getting longer all the time.
  It has taken four months to absorb the last lot of school leavers. It will take at least six months to absorb those who are the residue of the school leavers at Easter and midsummer. Undoubtedly in the next five years there will be in Cardiff alone 1,500 young people who ought to get apprenticeships but who will be unable to do so if things stay as they are. There is one thing youth cannot do, and that is to wait whilst Governments dawdle.
  I realise that the Parliamentary Secretary has this afternoon taken a step forward in encouraging authorities to appoint these training officers. I wish that the hon. Gentleman had felt able to deal with the proposal of the Cardiff authority for a local authority apprenticeship scheme. The Royal Ordnance factory that is vacant in Cardiff, as are others in other parts of the country, would be ideal for a training scheme where smaller factories, grouping together, could have their young men trained for the necessary trades in which they were interested.
  Some special action of that kind must match the appointment of training officers, because these people will only be able to appeal to industry, as the hon. Gentleman and my right hon. Friend have been appealing. Somehow they will have to overcome both the prejudices of trade unionists, where they are strong, and the fears of employers. If the Government encourage local authorities with a direct subsidy or grant for the
  1506
  establishment of training centres, the training officer could help as a liaison between the authority and industry to ensure that the youngsters will be both recognised in their training and have work available for them when they have finished it.
  I believe that the smaller firms will have to have some other direct means of help. I do not expect that all my hon. and right hon. Friends will agree with me, although I hope they will do so, but I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education tonight will be able to refer to possible taxation help where small firms seek to group together for the training of apprentices? The financial burden is not inconsiderable for very small firms in particular. I hope, therefore, that the Government have not definitely turned their back on the question of giving tax relief or financial aid in some other form.
  I understand that the British Employers Confederation has appealed to its members to increase the recruitment of apprentices by 35 per cent. between 1961 and 1965. That would give industry another 175,000 trained men to be added to our skilled labour force of 3 million. That would be an increase of 3 per cent. These are the figures given in the magazine Education, published on 6th February this year.
  The two industries which train most apprentices in this country are building and engineering, and their apprenticeship plans for the next five years are the same as at present. This is a most forbidding sign. With the school bulge soon reaching the open market, it will mean that thousands of young people of ability and potential skill will be denied their opportunity simply for lack of planning and initiative and action by Her Majesty's Government.
  I believe that the building industry ought to be more confident. After all, when this large population leaves the schools in 1962, within five years, I suppose they will be getting married and adding to the housing problem and to all the other social problems of an adult population. Of course, if we have an expanding economy there is no need for the fear which is holding back the building industry, other than the direct policy of Her Majesty's Government, which is enough to strike fear into anybody.

  1507
  We are told that the furniture and civil aviation industries might even diminish the number of apprenticeships they have been giving. Both modernisation and technological advances add to our problems. But we cannot avoid facing the fact that these young people are our responsibility. I believe it is wrong for us simply to leave this to industry, when the large firms are already taking as many as they think they want and the smaller firms are handicapped, as we know, by the fact that—

  ROYAL ASSENT
  5.30 p.m.
  Whereupon The GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD being come with a Message, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair.
  Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair.
  Message to attend the Lords Commissioners:
  The House went:—and, having returned;
  Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:

  1. Building (Scotland) Act, 1959.

  2. Highways Act, 1959.

  3. Terms and Conditions of Employment Act, 1959.

  4. Sea Fisheries (Compensation) (Scotland) Act, 1959.

  5. Income Tax (Repayment of Post-War Credits) Act, 1959.

  6. Colonial Development and Welfare (Amendment) Act, 1959.

  7. National Assistance (Amendment) Act, 1959.

  8. Agricultural Improvement Grants Act, 1959.

  9. Eisteddfod Act, 1959.

  10. Railway Clearing System Superannuation Fund Act, 1959.

  11. Tees Conservancy Act, 1959.

  12. Glamorgan County Council Act, 1959.

  13. Gloucestershire County Council Act, 1959.

  14. All Saints Chelsea Act, 1959.

  SUPPLY
  Again considered in Committee.
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]
  Question again proposed,
  That a further sum, not exceeding £20, be granted to Her Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1960, for the following services connected with Youth Employment Problems with particular reference to Apprenticeship and Industrial Training Schemes.

  YOUTH EMPLOYMENT PROBLEMS
  5.44 p.m.
  Mr. G. Thomas: I want to conclude my speech with some constructive suggestions. I have already welcomed the gesture made by the Government, as everyone concerned is bound to welcome it. Nonetheless, there are other aspects of the problem to which I think I ought to refer ere I resume my seat. The time is opportune for raising the school-leaving age. I hate the thought of thousands of youngsters who are denied an opportunity of proper training in industry being thrust out from the schools too soon. There are indications that parents want their children to gay at school, because they are staying on in ever greater numbers.
  If the trade unions and employers could accept the suggestion made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), that two years at school should count as part of the apprenticeship period, it would reduce some of the cost of training apprentices which industry now bears, and it would give many more boys a proper opportunity. Bilateral schools with a technical bias should be regarded, along with technical colleges, as places which will qualify in this respect.
  The Government should show a sense of urgency in developing their county colleges scheme, because youth will be exposed, in greater numbers than in any generation in the last twenty years, to possible long periods of unemployment. I realise how many deep-seated interests there are in this question of restrictions in apprenticeships, but I entirely support my right hon. Friend's suggestion that we should not cling to the five-year period, especially with the advancement

  1509
  that has taken place in the standards of education in the past decade. The improvements in the secondary sphere of education have been phenomenal, and this fact ought to be reflected in a shorter period of apprenticeship being required by industry.
  If we deal properly with the question of counting years at school as part of the apprenticeship period and, secondly, of reducing the apprenticeship period itself, we shall increase the number of skilled men which we so badly need and, at the same time, help to solve a gigantic social problem. We are talking of our teen-agers, the people who are facing great strain in their lives under normal conditions. The physical changes which take place in teen-agers are enough for them to get on with, without their having the added powerful frustration of not being trained as they want to be trained as engineers, printers or whatever calling they are attracted to.
  My last point concerns the question of compulsion. None of us likes compulsion, and I like it as little as anybody in relation to the training of people. I do not know how far industry needs pushing in this matter, but it certainly has moved slowly. High as my regard is for the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr) and the work that he and his Committee did, I feel that we ought to make it clear to industry that if it is not prepared to move itself it must be prodded. Group schemes might be set up. I realise the difficulty involved in compulsion in this matter, but the Parliamentary Secretary ought to be able to give the House and the country an assurance that the Government will not allow industry merely to look at the question, but will expect results and, if they are not forthcoming, will provide a plan of their own.
  5.48 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Carr: Seldom, I suppose, other than on the occasion of his maiden speech, does an hon. Member have the pleasure and privilege of hearing his name mentioned with such approval by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee as mine has been mentioned today.
  It was a great honour to be the chairman of the Committee which produced the Report "Training for Skill", and in accepting the kind things which have
  1510
  been said about the Committee over which I presided I wish to make clear that I take them as an expression of thanks from the hon. Member to those who did the work, those representing the Trades Union Congress and the British Employers' Federation and the nationalised industries, to say nothing of the highly skilled secretariat provided by the Ministry of Labour and National Service. While a chairman is fortunate to have his name associated with this subject —and I can assure the Committee that there is no subject with which I would rather have my name associated—it is to the members of that Committee that the thanks of Parliament should be given, and I am sure that the thanks expressed today are intended for them.
  I know, as was said by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, that it will be the feeling of all the members of the Committee over which I presided that what we had to say should be among the first words, and certainly not the last words, on this subject. When one cones to look at the subject, there are two background facts which stand out above all others. First, there is the national shortage of skilled manpower.
  I confess that it was a surprise to me when I was at the Ministry of Labour and National Service to find the extent to which, even in areas with employment difficulties, there was an absolute shortage of skilled manpower: how so often the employment exchanges had vacancies for skilled jobs which could not be tilled, while on the other hand there were lists of men and women wanting jobs who were unskilled and for whom there were no vacancies. So there is this national shortage, and I believe that the need for skilled manpower will increase rather than decrease as the years go by and technical developments take their course. Therefore, not only have we to make good the shortage which exists in the present state of industrial technical development, but we have to provide an extra supply of skilled manpower to take account of the changes which at the moment are going ahead at such a pace.
  To all those, particularly among trade unionists, who may feel that to attract an added number of skilled trainees into industry may prejudice the chances of employment for their members in the future. I would say that the whole of our

  1511
  experience in the past few years indicates that full employment will be easier to maintain if a larger proportion of our labour force in the future is skilled rather than unskilled.
  The other background fact is the great number of young people, the increasing number, who will be leaving school—indeed, many are already leaving school—who will want not merely jobs but good progressive jobs in industry and commerce during the next few years. Luckily, the national shortage and the need of these young people marry together. So we have not just a problem but also an opportunity, if only we can take advantage of it. It would not be too strong to say that it will be a disgrace to our industrial organisation if we cannot match this need and this opportunity, because the two are unlikely to coincide to the same extent again for a good many years.
  The main conclusion of our Committee was that the present apprenticeship system in this country was right in principle. Since our Report was published, I have listened to a fair amount of criticism of our insistence on this principle and I am still unrepentantly in favour of the principle we laid down. The right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), in what my hon. Friend rightly described as a far-sighted and excellent speech, threw some doubt on this principle, but when we take into account all that was said by the right hon. Gentleman we find that he did not depart too far from it.
  Our Committee believed that we should build on practice and not on theory, and I am sure that is right for two main reasons. First, at its best the present British apprenticeship system produces skilled men of a quality certainly not exceeded and, I doubt, matched in any other country in the world. At its best it does that: the problem is to see that; the best in our system is more widely spread than at the moment.
  The second reason why we think we should build on practice and tradition is the practical need for quick progress. It is all very well to work out wonderful theories about how things may be done better, and even to look abroad, where we may see how something is being done very well in other countries. But it is another thing to make a change in a system so strongly established as our
  1512
  apprenticeship system and to have it accepted and get it working within a short period of time.
  Even were I persuaded in theory that we ought to make some basic change in the present principle, I could not advocate it during this critical period; and I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary made a most important point when he said that were we to try to introduce basic changes at the moment two things would happen. The first is the one he mentioned. There would be a tendency for people doing the job at the moment to hold off rather than to do more.
  Secondly, so strongly is our present system supported by employers and trade unions that I think we should have a period of at least discussion and, I auspect, pretty strong argument before new methods were accepted and put to work. So, that to make basic changes in the system at present would, I believe, put back progress rather than speed it up.
  Mr. Mikardo: Would the hon. Gentleman resist even some changes in the duration, content and form of apprenticeship training?
  Mr. Carr: Indeed, not. Nor, if the hon. Member will look again at the Committee's Report, will he find that the Committee were against such things. Such possible changes were clearly marked among our conclusions and recommendations.
  But if we are satisfied with the basic system, it does not follow that we should be satisfied with the progress which is being made under it, nor that we should rule out Government assistance to industry in doing its job according to its traditional methods. I should like to say something more about that later.
  If we are to get effective action, it is essential that we should define and concentrate on the field of industry in which an increase in training can take place in the skills which we need. There can be no doubt that it must be towards the smaller and medium-sized firms that we have to look. Smaller and medium in this context does not mean only those firms which are small in total size. I have in mind those firms which are small or medium users of skilled manpower, even though their total labour force may be quite large.
  An interesting example came to my notice a week or two ago. A friend of

  1513
  mine who attended a trade association meeting said jokingly to me that he found my name on the agenda and could not think why. It turned out to be because of a consideration of the Report of the Committee over which I presided. I asked what the trade association was going to do about it and my friend said it had come to the conclusion that, by and large, the trade did not use skilled manpower. That was correct in the main. The process workers are not skilled workers. But when I said, "Do not the firms in your industry use engineers to maintain the plant?" my friend replied, rather sheepishly, if I may say so, "I suppose they do, I did not think of that."
  I believe there are many industries where the bulk of the labour is not skilled but where nevertheless they must have some skilled labour. Hitherto they have expected to go out and hire their skilled workers in the labour market at some stage. Now we must bring home to these firms that, though their usage of skilled manpower may be small, they must contribute to the training of skilled workers in the future.
  Mr. Moss: Will the hon. Gentleman say how he proposes to get these firms to do their share in the training of apprentices?
  Mr. Carr: I was hoping to come on to that subject straight away.
  When one has defined the field, one must certainly look at the sort of organisation which we think we need to help such firms, to encourage and incite them, to do more in the future than they have done in the past.
  First, among the type of help which, I think, is needed is help with the first year's training of an apprentice. I would not go as far as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth did in suggesting two years. As I think the Parliamentary Secretary suggested, there is a point that in the fairly early stages an apprentice ought to move into the practical world of industry and, provided his training is carried on properly in industry, he should not be kept out of it for too long. The fact that in our British system practice and training are so closely married together is of the greatest value.
  Mr. Austen Albu: Is there not a case for a pre-apprenticeship train-
  1514
  ing year between the ages of 15 and 16 before one year in a training school?
  Mr. Carr: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, who is forestalling me by a short head. If we are to give this help in the first year's training, there seem to be two principal ways in which it could be done. Industry should consider either on a geographical basis or an industry basis—and there is no reason why both bases should not be used—the building of joint training centres to look after the first year of an apprentice's training.
  When the N.J.A.C. Committee visited Germany, before we produced our report, we saw an example of such a joint training centre at Solingen. It was very interesting to learn that this centre had been erected on the initiative of local industry, which had all contributed to the capital cost, although the West German Government had also given a grant in aid to the capital cost. I would like to impress upon my hon. and right hon. Friends the thought that it is advisable, indeed, I would say necessary, to consider offering such a grant in aid to any industries or localities in this country that are prepared to set up joint training centres. This is one way in which we could help the first year's training.
  The other is the further development of the pre-apprentice course which was started in Scotland but which has also been practised in England and Wales to a lesser extent. The essential condition of development of the pre-apprentice course which could be done in technical colleges—and I believe that facilities exist in technical colleges for extending this idea—is that the year, or whatever the period may be, should count towards the total time of the apprenticeship once the trainee has moved from the technical college into industry. Help in the first year's training is the first thing that is needed.
  The second point which should be considered is the development of group apprenticeship schemes. There have been some such schemes for a good many years in the engineering industry, and the Engineering Industries' Association has played a very big part in developing them. I do not want today to criticise what particular bodies are doing more than is necessary, but I could not help feeling as I have gone about the country talking on

  1515
  this subject and inquiring about it that there is a certain jealousy, shall I say, between the Engineering Employers' Federation and the Engineering Industries' Association on this subject.
  It seems to me a great pity that there should be any sense of demarcation or jealousy between employers' organisations on a subject of this kind. I think the Committee must wish that, if there is any such feeling holding up the development of group apprenticeship schemes in the engineering industry, those concerned should quickly put it on one side and get on with the job.
  One of the important things in the group apprenticeship scheme and one of its greatest features is that there should be a training supervisor responsible for all the apprentices in the group. When I had the pleasure of visiting one of these group apprenticeship schemes it was the value of the training supervisor of the group that impressed me most. With that in mind, I would warmly welcome the measure announced by the Government today to give a grant in aid to the Industrial Training Council to encourage and help in a practical way with the appointment of training supervisors to various bodies. I gather from what the Parliamentary Secretary said that the terms of that grant in aid would not restrict unduly the type of body or organisation which would qualify for aid if it appointed a training supervisor. I hope that is so.
  Another field in which I think the small and medium firm could be helped is by the greater growth of block release in technical colleges as an alternative to day release. Our Committee received a certain amount of evidence which suggested that some employers, particularly those in the more remotely populated parts of the country, found day release a rather arduous business. They might find it less arduous and more easy to plan production if they could let an apprentice off for a number of weeks at a time instead of this irksome one day a week which has grown into the system. I think that the effect of that might be only marginal but that it could be of some importance. Apart from that, the apprentice attending a technical college for a number of weeks at a time might get from it more value than by going one
  1516
  day a week and getting his work there all mixed up with the rest of his work.
  If these are the sort of things which we need to provide to encourage more firms to undertake training which have not done so in the past, we have next to ask ourselves how we are to get these facilities used and what influence we can bring to bear on industry for that purpose? First and foremost, I have little doubt that it needs leadership from industry itself on a joint basis both of trade unions and employers, and I hope that the Industrial Training Council will fulfil this need. I believe that it is right that it should be an advisory body and I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth that at the present time it should have some executive authority, some sort of compulsion for furthering what it has in mind.
  In saying that, I very much welcome the grant in aid, which the Parliamentary Secretary has announced today, for a reason other than the specific purpose for which it is given. I think that to give the Industrial Training Council this grant in aid, and therefore to give it a specific task to carry out, might well bring it to life and give it a sense of purpose and a sense of authority and influence in industry which it could not have without some work of this kind to do. If that is where the joint leadership must come from, we have equally to look to the employers and the trade unions to play their own parts in influencing their constituents.
  I was delighted when I saw that the British Employers' Confederation, at its special meeting on 21st April, gave such a strong lead and carried it through not just by passing resolutions and publishing them in the papers but by specific letters to all its constituents urging them to increase their intake of apprentices by 20 per cent. every year for the next few years.
  I found very encouraging that lead from the central employers' federation, and I hope that it will press it effectively down to local levels. I would like to issue one word of warning and that is that the constituent members of the British Employers' Confederation do not by any means cover the whole field. There are very large numbers of firms, particularly perhaps the sort of firm which will have to do the training in future to meet this challenge, which are either not members of bodies affiliated to the B.E.C.,

  1517
  or are members in a very formal sense and have no active contact with those employers' associations.
  We have also to look to another very important body of employers' organisations, trade associations which do not exist in the industrial relations sense for conducting negotiations with trade unions, but, nevertheless, associations which very often have a more powerful influence with their members than the employers' associations themselves. I know from my experience that many firms pay attention to leadership, guidance and information which they receive from their trade association while being totally unaware of what the British Employers' Confederation and its constituent bodies are trying to do. I hope that, although these trade associations are not affiliated to the B.E.C. and its constituent members, the Industrial Training Council and the B.E.C. will not feel unable to bring these associations into discussions and the persuasion that is going on. They can be a very powerful media.
  It may also be that the chambers of commerce in some of our important towns and districts are another important channel of communication for persuading industry to take action. I am not, of course, suggesting that such bodies should make apprenticeship agreements with trade unions. That is the proper job of employers' associations and trade unions. I am suggesting only that trade associations and chambers of commerce might be useful channels of persuasion which ought to be used and not neglected merely because they are in no way affiliated to the normal industrial relations machinery.
  We must also have leadership from the trade unions. When we come to questions of the number of entrants, enforcement of ratios and seeing that they are reasonable, the age of entrants, the length of apprenticeship and scope of training, we come to a list of subjects on which we can make progress only with the good will and active leadership of the trade unions. I most warmly welcome what was said by the right hon. Member for Blyth on these points. Coming from the Dispatch Box on the Opposition side of the Committee and from a spokesman who himself is an important figure in the trade union world, what he had to say was of immense importance. I think we all recognise that in some of the things he said he must have known that he was
  1518
  likely to tread on some corns in various corners of the trade union movement.
  The Committee over which I presided made recommendations on all these points. That carried one most important conclusion. It meant that they were blessed by the national leaders of the trade union movement sitting on that committee. They were convinced of the need for the changes. The difficulty they have—and employers have this difficulty just as much as trade unions—is to get the beliefs and aspirations held at national level accepted and acted upon at local level. All of us in our various capacities must do what we can to help with this work. All these matters which the right hon. Member raised were not only dealt with in our recommendations but were regarded by the Committee, with full support, as matters to which we attached much importance.
  In conclusion, I wish to say something about the assistance think the Government can give. I do not believe assistance by the Government is incompatible with the basic principle to which the committee adhered. I personally look upon apprenticeship as part of education for life and not merely as training for a job. If it is that, quite apart from any industrial advantage, it seems by no means inappropriate that the Government should play a part in assisting it as well as in merely encouraging it. Of the six or seven ways in which I think the Government can help, first and foremost is the provision of help for group instructors. I have always put that first on my list and I am delighted that the Government have found it possible to announce that help today. I hope I shall not seem ungrateful if I press my hon. and right hon. Friends to continue a little further on the good path they have started to tread.
  I should like also to see more help given to the training of instructors. The Ministry of Labour has at Letchworth a staff training college to train its own staff for Government training centres. Some industrial firms have sent their supervisors there to be trained in the art of training. If we are to increase the quantity and the quality of apprenticeship training, that is an important factor. I hope the use of Letchworth for this purpose will be extended, even though that might mean some extension in its scope. Personally. I have never seen why industry

  1519
  should not be asked and be able to pay for this training of its instructors, although at the moment I think there is some constitutional difficulty about allowing them to do so. But an extension of that facility could be valuable and it could be very largely paid for by industry itself.
  As I have already mentioned, the Government ought to consider a capital grant towards setting up joint training centres. I should also like my right hon. Friend, as the months and the next year or two go by, to consider the operation of the special training allowances scheme, which is designed to help would-be apprentices from more remote areas. That is performing a useful purpose. I have no particular suggestion for extending it at the moment, but I think that circumstances might arise in which a greater use and development of that scheme could be of advantage.
  My next suggestion concerns more the role of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education who, I understand, will be winding up the debate tonight. I hope technical college facilities can be developed to allow more scope for pre-apprenticeship schemes and also perhaps to develop on an experimental basis what is done in Derby where in a technical college there is an embryo apprenticeship centre in operation. I should not advise the immediate extension of this idea on a large scale, but I understand that it works in Derby. It is worth looking at and perhaps extending in one or two places to see what results accrue.
  Finally, I hope the Government will still consider in future the possibility of giving tax remissions to firms in respect of the number of their apprentices and so in some way to compensate them for the cost involved in day releases.
  While I strongly welcome what the Government announced today and what I believe is a most important way of encouraging the development of training, in my opinion some further measures are also desirable. I hope that in the next year or two we shall see the Government able to introduce one or more other measures such as I have mentioned to assist in this purpose.
  We not only have to increase the quantity of training, but the quality. Perhaps the most important need in this respect is to have the first year of appren-
  1520
  ticeship in closely organised training such as a joint training centre or pre-apprenticeship course in a technical college. The first year of training is exceptionally important. Training the instructors is the second most important thing if we are to increase not only the quantity, but also the quality, of apprentice training. Then there are two other matters to which I hope the Industrial Training Council will give attention and leadership. One is the drawing up on a larger scale than at the moment in this cuntry of a syllabus of training for the various crafts. I should not want the rigid German system, but I think more could be done than is done at the moment in laying down a minimum syllabus. The second is the matter, mentioned by the right hon. Member for Blyth, of greater development of training tests, not on a compulsory but on a voluntary basis, at the end of apprenticeships. That could do a considerable amount to improve the quality of craftsmanship.
  I apologise to the Committee if I have spoken for too long. When one has studied a subject of this kind one cannot help it becoming a bee in one's bonnet and one is conscious of the great number of aspects about which one can talk.
  I have spoken only about apprenticeship training, but I hope that formal training can be extended and developed in the country among many occupations outside the traditional apprenticeship crafts. They need not all be full-length apprenticeships, but I hope that there will be more occupations in which a formal period of training comes to be expected as a necessary practice. Indeed, I hope that even in completely unskilled work the development at least of a short period of induction training can be encouraged, because all this, I am sure, will add to the economic efficiency of the nation and to the economic opportunities of the young people concerned.
  It will do more than that. As has been said, this is a social as well as an economic matter. Many things need to be done before we can give men and women in their work a feeling of purpose and of satisfaction—not merely a feeling that work is only a necessary means of earning a wage packet. Many things could be done, but training is one of the most important, because if boys and girls entering industry have even a short industrial

  1521
  training, they will acquire a sense of purpose in the job which is greater than they would otherwise have had. It therefore helps to increase the stability and to raise the quality of our society. It is very valuable that the Committee should be discussing the matter today, and I hope that the discussion will help to give a lead to the country.
  6.22 p.m.
  Mr. Austen Albu: It is a great privilege to follow the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr), whose Report has formed such a large part of the discussion today. He said that there had been so many flattering remarks made about him that he felt almost as if he were making a maiden speech. I can assure him that if, on this occasion, I say that his speech was of great assistance to the Committee. I say it more sincerely than if it had been a maiden speech. The way in which I can perhaps flatter him most is by telling him that I shall largely follow him in many of the things he said.
  It is significant that so far in our debate there has been a large measure of agreement. If the tone of the debate is perhaps typical of the way in which we sometimes discuss these matters, I hope that people outside will not misunderstand the strength of purpose which the Committee has in the matter and the anxiety which it feels and which we hope industry feels, too.
  As the hon. Member for Mitcham said at the end of his speech, and as other hon. Members have said, the problem of providing employment for young persons is largely a social problem, but I will start by spending a few moments on the question of apprenticeship. It is a question which the Committee has been approaching with characteristic caution. That is because apprenticeship is the sacred cow of British industry, although it has recently had some examination, thanks to the operations of the committee over which the hon. Member for Mitcham presided and to the even more sacrilegious study undertaken by Professor Lady Gertrude Williams, the results of which were published in her book Recruitment to Skilled Trades.
  As hon. Members have said, we are concerned in this debate not only with numbers, but also with the quality of the
  1522
  training given at present in British industry. Lady Gertrude Williams pointed out that in all essential points our apprenticeship system is exactly the same as the method introduced into this country more than 800 years ago and finally given legal authority by the Statute of Artificers in 1562. It was entirely suitable for a domestic system of industry, training being given to a boy or girl not only in a craft, but also in the customs of society and to some extent in religious observance, but it is quite unsuited to a modern industrial society. Being based on the guild system, as it largely was, it was very much concerned with restrictions of numbers of journeymen, and attention has, therefore, been directed to the question whether trade unions today are restrictive of the numbers entering into apprenticeships.
  I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), in his opening speech, pointed to the great exaggeration which there has been of the extent of these restrictions and to the fact that in the vast majority of industries there is no restriction at all. We agree, however, that there are some resistances, particularly to late entry, and this is a matter which needs serious attention if we are to cope with the extensive technological and scientific changes which will take place in British industry in the next few years.
  The Committee over which the hon. Member for Mitcham presided complained, rightly, of the lack of statistics. We have to rely to some extent on guesswork and to some extent on the Answers given from the Government Front Bench. It appears that in 1956–57 about 35 per cent. of the boys and 6 per cent. of the girls between the ages of 15 and 17 entered some sort of apprenticeship or learnership. In that year the number of school-leavers was 446,000. Another way of looking at it is to consider the number of those who go on to any sort of further education, much of which is vocational. In the same year, about 161,000 at the age of 17 were in further education, or about one-third of the age group. This year, for the City and Guilds examinations, which are mostly in crafts and for technicians, there are 147,500 candidates. All these figures exclude approximately 20,000 students a year at the universities.

  1523
  These figures all confirm the point that only between 20 and 30 per cent. of young people leaving school have any sort of further training at all. But there is, of course, a great variation between industries and occupations. Not all industries need the same degree of training. Nevertheless, it is remarkable that nearly 40 per cent. of all evening class entries in subjects related to industry or commerce, are in engineering and building and another 50 per cent. are in commercial and professional occupations, most of which are clerical, largely shorthand and typewriting. If we examine the figures further, it looks as if in other occupations only 2 to 3 per cent, of the boys and girls leaving school are given any serious training for their employment at all.
  Perhaps I may turn to the future needs of the country and of industry, to which other hon. Members have referred. The Carr committee, if I may refer to it by the appellation usually given it, expected an increased demand from the main industries which take apprentices but was unable to give any figures. From my own experience, I should think that British industry is probably underestimating its future needs as a great part of it has always underestimated the effect of scientific development and economic change outside. We have always been behind in the application of research, in estimating what our competitors will do and in estimating economic changes. In the past industry in this country has not been good at looking forward and at planning for change, especially at the speed at which change is taking place at present.
  In an article in Engineering, published on 28th February last year, there was an estimate of the need for skilled workers and technicians in the future. The figures given were 1,300,000 skilled workers and 454,000 technicians by 1966. It was pointed out that to achieve these numbers we needed about 86,000 extra apprenticeships each year—nearly three times our present total. The way in which that calculation was made might cause one to doubt its accuracy, but if at least half the school-leavers in the next three or four years were apprenticed, and if we took account of the bulge, we could at least double the present number, and that appears to be what most people would think will be required.
  1524
  Our fear that nothing is being done to meet this need was confirmed by the figures given by the Parliamentary Secretary this afternoon. We have to press on the country and the Government that this is an extremely serious problem. We all agree that these increased numbers are needed and that everything must be done to draw attention to the fact that the number of apprenticeships and learner-ships, instead of increasing, is at present decreasing.
  This is not a new problem. Many medium or smaller firms in industry, even in engineering and building, offer no training whatever, quite apart from the firms which employ engineers or builders but which are not in those industries. These are the firms to which the hon. Member referred. There are whole industries in which there is practically no systematic training whatever. The recent Report of the Advisory Committee on Further Education for Commerce shows that the training for commercial occupations is quite inadequate in this country and that we are miles behind our continental competitors in this respect. We shall have to turn our attention to this in the immediate future.
  The hon. Member for Mitcham said that he would like to see national syllabuses for industrial apprenticeship schemes, but there are more than 100 schemes already in existence, based, I believe, on the war-time report on the recruitment and training of juveniles for industry and on the subsequent discussion that took place in the separate industries, between the two sides. As there is not a representative of the Ministry of Labour present on the Government Front Bench, perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education will be able to get from his hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour a reply to a question I wish to ask him. I am told that in 1952, or about that time, the Ministry of Labour examined six of these apprenticeship schemes to see how they were working. I should like to know whether a report was drawn up and what the results were. I understand that there was an enormous variation in the extent to which apprenticeship schemes were in being, varying from zero to 100 per cent., among the firms in the industries.
  It is important to realise that these schemes are already in existence. There are also 300 City and Guilds syllabuses

  1525
  for technicians and craftsmen awards based upon the courses at technical colleges. The British Chambers of Commerce themselves have an apprenticeship scheme for clerical and commercial occupations. Unfortunately, it is not very widely known and is very little used. The fact is that there are paper apprenticeship schemes, and that there are technical and commercial classes waiting for students. The skeleton exists. What is needed is some action to compel industry to clothe it. We do not necessarily need to go into the whole business of drawing up new schemes.
  I turn to the question of quality. We have a terrible tendency in this country to be extremely complacent about old-established customs, among which are our apprenticeship schemes, and to be very reluctant to examine what our foreign competitors do. Even this morning, when I was preparing the remarks I am putting before the Committee, I read an article in that excellent paper, the New Scientist, by a company education officer. The article accepted without question the fact that there were no national requirements covering the contents of apprentice training schemes, and states that passing-out tests have only limited significance. Yet, both these things are used by our continental competitors. They have national syllabuses for apprentice training schemes and they have certification of craftsmen.
  It is true that excellent work has been done by some of our largest firms, particularly in the electrical engineering industry and, of course, by the nationalised industries. I would like in particular, to pay a compliment to the Post Office, which has an admirable scheme of training, based largely on City and Guilds awards. Promotion is not entirely based on the taking of these courses and the obtaining of awards, but they are largely taken into account.
  I should like to congratulate the Admiralty on an unsual scheme by which it assists the Post Office. This the Admiralty does by allowing ships to collect radio operators from small islands in obscure places, bringing them on board and allowing them to take the examination and providing invigilators, presumably returning them to their posts afterwards. This is a good example of enterprise on the part of the Admiralty and the Post Office, which is a nationalised
  1526
  industry, which industry as a whole might very well copy.
  Mr. George Lawson: My hon. Friend refers to the admirable scheme in which the Admiralty is helping the Post Office. Will he permit me to suggest that he should say something about the stepping up of the number of apprentices that the Post Office is taking on?
  Mr. Albu: That is a point which my hon. Friend might take up with the Postmaster-General. I am discussing quality, not numbers. The difficulty of the Post Office is that it is, as it were, a closed industry. One who was trained for the Post Office might not easily find employment elsewhere. It is a matter that might well be further examined.
  There has been an encouraging growth in recent years of education and training officers and training workshops. We all welcome the Government grant for increasing the number of training officers, but these must not be ex-officers without industrial experience, or superannuated foremen or works managers who have no understanding of training methods. This is a highly-skilled job. But in a very large number of firms the training given is quite inadequate. There are far too many so-called apprentices who are doing what is known as "watching Nelly". There is far too little selection to ensure that the apprentices are capable of receiving the instruction. Those who are allowed day release, or are encouraged to take evening classes, are often sent to take or are allowed to take courses that are quite unsuitable to their capacities or to the work they intend to do.
  As has already been said, apprenticeship is a form of education. It requires at least one person in every firm who will give the matter his special attention, and who has made a special study of training methods so that he can be responsible for seeing that the apprentices are really trained and are not, as too often happens at present, employed merely as cheap labour. In manual occupations, the need for training workshops where the principles of tools are taught in the first six months of the year by special instructors is important. Instruction should also be given in calculations, drawing and the basic science of the industry, and this is best given at technical colleges by day release or perhaps by block release.

  1527
  Small firms cannot afford to do this by themselves. It is a shame that group apprenticeship schemes like those run by the Engineering Industries' Group Association, and by the Enfield Manufacturers' Association, have not been more widely copied. The hon. Member for Mitcham referred tactfully to there being a certain amount of jealousy on the part of the Engineering Employers' Federation. I assure him that this is the case. It really is shocking that this body of employers, whose federation covers the largest body of employers who take apprentices, is doing everything it can to prevent the starting of group schemes. The Engineering Industries' Group Association is trying to start schemes in a large number of areas in the country, such as in the Midlands, Manchester, South Wales, the West Riding and Bolton. Every time it has gone into an area the Engineering Employers' Federation has circularised employers in the area advising them to delay.
  What is the reason? The truth is that the Engineering Employer's Federation is an obscurantist body which covers a very large number of mechanical engineering firms which are extremely backward, do no research and employ no properly qualified technical staff. They are unwilling to carry out adequate apprenticeship schemes and are doing everything they can to stop other people from doing so. Unless we can shake the attitude of the Engineering Employers' Federation we shall not get much advance in this field. This negative attitude is bound to be reflected in the British Employers' Confederation and, therefore, in the Industrial Training Council, whose lethargy has been much criticised outside, far more than it has been criticised here today. It is, therefore, unfortunate that it has been set up within the offices of the British Employers' Confederation.
  I would like to say a few words about awards and certificates. The number of awards in the technical and commercial fields is really fantastic. This is partly due to the backwardness of our education system in the last century, when examining bodies came into being before schools and colleges, and proliferated certificates, diplomas and what-have-you. There have been complaints of the very high failure rate for some of these awards, particularly in respect of the National Certificates and of the City and Guilds courses.
  1528
  But these figures are compared with those of the very much smaller number of volunteer students before the war. Most of the students today are no longer volunteers, because they are sent to the schools by their employers. Those who would have been volunteers before the war are those who, today, are likely to go to grammar school and on to university education.
  A very large part of the failure is due to inadequate selection of apprentices, and the failure to understand the nature of the courses they have to undertake. I agree that it would be undesirable to follow the continental rule that nobody can practise a skilled craft without a certificate, but it is desirable that there should be more certification voluntarily undertaken and for this purpose there are a growing number of suitable certificates and other awards; for instance, the new City and Guilds awards for courses in mechanical engineering craft practice, in which the first examinations will be held this year, for heating and ventilating operatives and a new course for building craftsmen. As more and more employers begin demanding the certificates and more and more apprentices expect to get them, this will itself tend to raise the standard of training.
  The Government's proposal will give some incentive to industry, but I do not think that it goes far enough. I believe that there will have to be some method of tax relief for small employers on the lines of the Engineering Industries' Group Association scheme. I believe that that scheme was put to the Government and it was expected to be incorporated in the Finance Bill. I wonder whether it was the opposition of the Engineering Employers' Federation that prevented this? In any case, I warn the Government that I will move an Amendment to provide that relief when the Bill is dealt with in Committee.
  We may also need a levy, such as there is in France, based on the number of skilled workers employed, to enable training workshops to be established in technical colleges, with relief for those undertaking approved training. But the schemes to receive relief, either from tax or levy, must be schemes which are of the very highest character, with proper persons in charge, with proper syllabuses, training facilities, and so on.

  1529
  I very much agree with the proposals made on both sides of the Committee for the provision of training workshops at technical colleges, or at Ministry of Labour training centres or R.O.F.s, for the use of smaller firms. We should also encourage the pre-apprentice training year. This need not be given only at technical colleges. More and more children are being kept on at secondary modern schools where they can take the Royal Society of Arts and pre-technical examinations—not as part of industrial training. but as a link between school and industrial life, where the vocational bias is used as an incentive to continue education in English, mathematics, science, and so on. This is much to be encouraged. Already, because of the demands of modern industry, many firms are beginning to demand higher educational standards for apprentices, and this tends to increase the numbers who stay on at school in this way.
  There has been a very significant and useful rise in the numbers taking the examinations of the Associated Examining Board, which gives a General Certificate of Education in practical subjects. Over 15,000 took this examination last year, and the figure looks like being more than double this year. This certificate is a very suitable award, following pre-apprenticeship training, for those going into industrial apprenticeships. It is very encouraging that about one-third of the number last year came from secondary modern schools, and 60 per cent. from technical colleges, who must mostly have attended secondary modern schools.
  I have one further suggestion which has not so far been made in the debate. The Government may not necessarily like it, but I think it important. The Industrial Training Council should be reformed under an independent chairman, with a specialist and highly qualified staff for collecting statistics and information, and formulating plans for consideration by both sides of industry. I do not believe that a body composed of the very busy people at the top of industry can get this job done. It is best done by a body of keen officials under a "live" chairman. Until that Council is re-formed, we shall not get the pressure on industry that is desirable.
  I should now like to say something about those who are not destined to be
  1530
  skilled craftsmen or trained clerical workers. If we double the number of apprenticeships we shall have 50 per cent. or 60 per cent. of boys and girls going into some sort of training. To cope with that, better use will have to be made of existing training schemes such as that in, for instance, the retail trades, and there must be far more training schemes for girls. But we will still be left with about 40 per cent, who will receive no training at all.
  I believe, with the hon. Member for Mitcham, that every boy and girl should have some training for employment, even if it is mainly an introduction to the particular industry or service in which he or she is to work. It will not only improve their efficiency and that of the industry, but will greatly improve the quality of their lives. Where training is given in jobs previously considered of very little skill it very often arouses great enthusiasm and enhances the dignity of the job.
  The City and Guilds, for instance, has a course for boiler operatives, which has certainly given a new status to those who take it. Last year, 1,500 operatives sat the examinations, and 83 per cent. passed. This year, 3,000 candidates are expected. I believe that one of those who passed last year was an operative who could not read or write. He took the course, and was allowed to take the examination with his wife reading the questions to him. This course has clearly increased the interest in and the sense of dignity of the job.
  British Railways train engineers and engine drivers, but what do they do about porters? Do they ever think that this man, who meets the public, should be made to know that his job is an important part of the service? Does he get any training in, or induction into it? Again, what about hospital domestic staff? What training or induction do they get? Would it not be far better for them and for the service for which they work if they were given a better understanding of their job in the whole scheme, and so have raised for them the dignity of their working lives?
  As my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth rightly said, we are not only dealing with the economic future of the country but with the lives of the majority of boys and girls now growing up and

  1531
  leaving school. At present, the jump from school to employment is for most youngsters a jump into an unknown world which they will never really understand and with which they will never come to terms. It may be difficult to make many of the jobs in our society fully satisfying by themselves, but at least we can help those who will carry them out to understand the significance of the contribution they will make to the common weal. But to do that we must have a much bigger effort on the part of industry, and an even bigger one on the part of the Government.
  6.47 p.m.
  Mr. J. C. George: It is characteristic of an active democracy to be dissatisfied with the status quo. Today we have had evidence that the Committee is dissatisfied with things as they are, though sometimes in criticising things as they are we tend to give ourselves less than credit for what we have done and are doing.
  In Scotland, our problem is not just the narrow one of youth and employment training but the greater one of a country which is continually suffering from a high rate of unemployment, which sees its trained people emigrating over the Border and its research graduates leaving the country. That is the big problem that must concern Scotland, and the employment and training of youth is only one part of it, although a very vital part.
  I was extremely interested in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), who showed a complete understanding of and deep sympathy with the problems of youth at the present time. Many of his points I had intended myself to raise. In fact, with very little of his speech indeed could I disagree, and almost all of it I could praise generously.
  He mentioned several things worth commenting on. He spoke very bravely about the present length of apprenticeship courses, and that is something that we who have dealt with apprentices and apprenticeship courses for years have long maintained. Many apprenticeships are far too long, and should be shortened. The right hon. Gentleman also said that a higher age might be introduced for apprenticeships. This is a very important
  1532
  matter because, as he said, we are suffering from redundancy among middle-aged men. Men are being forced to spend their lives in labouring jobs when, with some training—though I do not at all agree with the right hon. Gentleman's idea of a three-year apprenticeship course for the middle-aged—they might be able to go through life, if not skilled, at least semi-skilled.
  In that connection, I should like my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to look at what is being done in Sweden about this very problem. In Sweden they have what is termed the accelerated training course. They bring men in from the fields and the forests. They bring in unskilled workers from the country and from abroad. By this accelerated training scheme they produce semi-skilled, and in some cases fairly highly skilled, men in a comparatively few months. They produce men who can operate turret lathes and do many complex engineering jobs. By this method of training, men in middle age can be given the new chance for which the right hon. Member for Blyth pleaded. That scheme in Sweden is well worthy of study by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.
  Mr. Lee: Is the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George) aware that we did far more of that in England during the war than Sweden has ever done?
  Mr. George: It may have been done in England during the war, but it is not being done today. The fact that it is not being done today led to the plea from the right hon. Member for Blyth. He pleaded that something should be done for the middle-aged worker. I am pleading that the Swedish accelerated training course should be examined to see whether it could be a success in this country.
  The right hon. Member for Blyth also raised a question which has been a burning one for many years. Should an apprenticeship course be closed with the award of a certificate? The trade unions have never liked a compulsory certificate to show the end of an apprenticeship. When one studies this matter, one wonders if it is not adding to what is already there. When I served an apprenticeship in one trade, I took what was available then. I took the City and Guilds course, which has been mentioned

  1533
  many times today. City and Guilds courses are widely taken in Scotland, and they are widely recognised by employers as evidence that the young man has served his apprenticeship and attained that higher standard of skill which marks him out from those who have not obtained the certificate.
  If that is not done, I believe that we should consider the introduction of some voluntary certificate to be granted to the skilled apprentice who has finished his course and thought it worth while to obtain some indication to carry forward into later life.
  I thought that the right hon. Member for Blyth might have gone a little further, but perhaps he went far enough for one day in the atmosphere in which he was speaking. It has been evident in many industries that there is a need to reduce the number of crafts and trades. Some of the trades are merging together, and we could with profit reduce the number of trades in which we are at present training apprentices. Many things can be done to clarify the apprenticeship position. The speech by the right hon. Member for Blyth today was the greatest advance towards cleaning up in this field which I have heard in my time.
  The right hon. Gentleman spoke about the challenge of today. Hon. Members on this side of the Committee are very definitely aware of the challenge of the years in which we live, the challenge of the scientific age, and the danger that the glittering prizes lying ahead could be lost by our own shortcomings. My hon. Friends and I are absolutely aware of the need to produce the maximum number of skilled men in the immediate future. As has been mentioned several times today, we are aware also that the general labour force of the future must be far more intelligent, mechanically minded and adaptable than it has been in the past.
  To that end we must direct our training and education, even after the beginning of work in the general labour force. We must raise the level of intelligence of our labour force if we are to win the prizes which can be won in the years ahead. We must have far fewer hewers of wood and drawers of water. We must have far more brain at work and far less muscle. This can be done.
  We must not fail this generation, and hon. Members on this side of the Com-
  1534
  mittee are well aware of it. In Scotland we have taken steps. In recent years we have seen the most radical advance in technical education in the history of Scotland. We see sixteen new technical schools being built in various parts of Scotland. We see our central institutions expanding and our universities expanding vastly. In Scotland we are meeting the challenge on the technical education side and a dramatic expansion is evident throughout the country. We are all aware that the need for the training of youth in the future is known, not only to employers, but is percolating throughout society up and down the country. I meet demands at all public meetings asking what we should do for the better education and better training of our children. The country is aware of the need and we must measure up to it. I believe that on the educational front in Scotland we are measuring up to the need of the present age.
  As was mentioned earlier, we have not only made preparations for a remarkable expansion in technical education, but have introduced pre-apprenticeship courses. This is very vital, for it ties up with earlier speeches. We have excellent pre-apprenticeship courses, which are a very vital link between the school and the workshop. Some last six months. Some last a year. They are absolutely excellent courses for providing that link.
  The right hon. Member for Blyth suggested that the course should last for two years, but we are doing it in six months and a year and it is playing a very notable part in training our youth to be better equipped for industry. It would be an excellent gesture if it could he agreed that the year spent in the pre-apprenticeship course should count in the length of apprenticeship.
  In Scotland we feel that the awareness of the population and the readiness of the Government will ensure that we shall always meet the needs of the years in which we live. The flow of technicians and technologists which is evident at present will become a flood by the time that the nation needs it. In Scotland we do not feel that we are not meeting the needs of the youth of today on the educational front.
  I ask myself, and I have heard the question asked today, whether the Government should do more to educate

  1535
  youth technically at the age of 15, 16 or 17. There have been pleas today that the Government should provide new schools and training centres to give a two-year apprenticeship training. I do not agree with that, for many reasons. I think that the Carr Committee did right to divide the responsibility into two. It said that the education and technical education of the youth should be the responsibility of the State and the apprenticeship training for industry should be the responsibility of the industrial system. I thoroughly believe in that.
  I make one reservation. While I could not ask for training centres to be set up throughout the country to do the job of industry, there is a case for looking at areas of persistent high unemployment. I mean towns which normally export youth, such as Dundee and Greenock in Scotland, which cannot see their way to employ a large number of apprentices and where their young people are entering dead-end jobs. I believe that there is a case for building an apprentice training centre in areas like that. I do not mean a magnificent building to take hundreds, but a small centre to provide apprentice training for the youths in those towns who could not normally expect to be taken on as apprentices, because in any case the towns do not need many, and who would be forced to take dead-end jobs. Towns of that nature produce more than they need. In that way perhaps we could close a little gap and do something to ensure that the young men in those towns would he better equipped for the future and would not have to look forward to dead-end jobs.
  There have been demands also that the Government should help, by way of taxation reliefs and in other ways, to do a job which I honestly believe is industry's job. We had one case in Scotland. Speaking after the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works had spoken, the personnel officer of one of the largest engineering works in Scotland said, as reported in the Scotsman of 21st January of this year:
  "What industrial representatives here today can afford to increase their apprentice intake simply because they are deemed to have suitable facilities and, furthermore, to do this from altruistic motives with no financial assistance from the Government?"
  1536
  The Parliamentary Secretary said that such an attitude was understandable, but regrettable. I deplore that attitude on the part of free enterprise. I believe that if free enterprise is to remain the dominant partner in our industrial set-up, as I believe that it must, it must stand up and shoulder its responsibilities. It is an old Conservative adage that there is no power without responsibility. If our industrial system is to enjoy that power, it must shoulder its responsibilities, and the training of apprentices is part of its responsibilities. If the cost of apprenticeship training is only £15 to £20 million a year, as was estimated by the right hon. Member for Blyth, that is by no means an unbearable burden for industry to shoulder.
  Mr. Mikardo: Has the hon. Gentleman heard the story of the man whose house was on fire? When somebody asked him why he did not throw a bucket of water on the fire, he said, "I have rung for the fire brigade. I am not going to do their job for them." The plain fact of the matter is that the Government are intervening because industry does not do the job. What is the good of the hon. Gentleman continually saying that the Government should keep out because industry should do the job?
  Mr. George: If the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo) would let me finish my speech and not attempt to make it for me, he might learn from it.
  Mr. Mikardo: The hon. Gentleman might answer the point.
  Mr. George: I will answer the point in my own good time. Youth depends upon others to equip it with the tools for life. It is a fair division that the Government equips it technically, in a humanistic way to face life, and industry does its job.
  The quotation I made and the intervention by the hon. Member for Reading are answered very fully in a way that shows that industry, on the broadest front, is not unprepared to shoulder its responsibilities. It has been said here already that the British Employers' Confederation has written to every member throughout the country—it has written to me—urging everyone with great vigour to face the situation—
  Mr. Mikardo: Wonderful. It has written a letter.
  Mr. George: —which is confronting the country now and which will develop between now and 1962, when we shall have the bulge coming through the schools and the cessation of National Service. The Confederation has suggested that industry should employ another 35,000 apprentices every year during the next five years. This will mean 175,000 extra skilled men at the end of five years. I believe that some hon. Members opposite would be quite happy if this did not come off. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] People in industry intend that it shall come off.
  Mr. Albu: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me—
  Mr. George: The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) had a fair time himself.
  That is the task facing every industrialist member of the Confederation, to assist in employing 35,000 extra annually for the next five years, and vigorous pressure is being exerted and will be exerted to see that it is carried out. Industry is prepared to shoulder its responsibilities, as it should be. I am not making any excuses for industrial failure in the past. I am pointing out the duty for the future, and I am certain that industry is prepared to fulfil it. I do not believe that any tax remissions are needed, and I deplore that some industrialists have pleaded for them.
  Is apprenticeship training good enough and wide enough as we have it today? As regards the position in Scotland, I want to quote from an authority, Professor Small of the Glasgow University. Giving his experience after many visits to industrial undertakings in Scotland, he said:
  "Taking account of the great number of small and ill-equipped firms all over the country which employed apprentices, it could not be but feared that the facilities for training which are available to a large proportion of the intake to the skilled trade of engineering were such as to do an ill-service to the status of the craft."
  I take that quotation from the Scotsman of 8th October, 1958.
  Professor Small is further reported as suggesting
  "that small firms and large ones whose work covered only a narrow field might profit
  1538
  from joining a group apprenticeship scheme in which the facilities of the group as a whole would be at the disposal of all the apprentices it employed."
  That is clear condemnation of the position as it exists in Scotland, and, obviously, from the speeches made today, of the position as it exists in England.
  Group apprenticeship schemes are not new. During the last eleven years I have had experience of sending my own apprentices to such a group scheme. The factory about which I am speaking was one comparable with the one my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr) mentioned in his speech, employing a large number of men but a very small number of engineers. All the firms in that little town of Alloa in Scotland were led by the Harland Engineering Company into an apprenticeship group scheme where we had training officers and training supervisors, and an excellent job was done for ten years. There is, I think, nothing to learn there, but unfortunately, it has not spread wide enough.
  I appeal to industry in Scotland, as hon. Members from England have done for England, to see that in the smaller and medium-sized firms people should get together and form more groups. An apprentice trained in a narrow skill in a small factory is very little more than unskilled in the modern world. He must learn more than one narrow part of his trade; otherwise he is not really a tradesman. By forming an apprenticeship training scheme, use can be made of the premises of larger firms and the young men can learn many aspects of several trades. This is one of the directions in which we must advance. There must be more apprenticeship training groups under the capable leadership of properly selected men.
  Incidentally, that same firm, the Harland Engineering Company, showed its appreciation of the needs of the day a few years ago by starting what is now called S.E.T.S.—the Scottish Electrical Training Scheme—whereby graduates are kept together in Scotland and induced not to go to England or abroad. They are paid full salary for two full years in order to keep them there and they are trained for the electrical industry which is advancing so much today. But we are not doing nearly enough. It is essential for smaller firms to have their

  1539
  apprentices trained to the level of the best.
  Day release is another important aspect of apprenticeship training today. There is not nearly enough being done in Scotland or in England. Scotland is facing the matter in a half-hearted way. Five years ago, we had only 5,000 released for day release courses. That number has now risen to 30,000. A few weeks ago, the Joint Under-Secretary of State said that it should rise to 60,000 within a few years. In the City of Hamburg, where day release is compulsory, we find that 76,000 out of a population of 1¾ million are sent on day release courses. On that basis, Scotland should have 200,000 attending day release courses. That is the ideal. We all believe that the industry should give facilities for day release to all. That is how it should be, and we look forward to the day when all in industry must take day release courses.
  In the meantime, we must in Scotland encourage a greater awareness among employers of the benefits of day release. These tasks lie fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the associations of employers. They must be made aware of their responsibilities and must exert more vigorous pressure on their members to do their duty towards our youth and help it to face the future.
  In Scotland, we have seen not only our tradesmen wander away. We have seen our graduates wander away. We need our graduates for the future more than we have needed them in the past. We have more young people to teach. We have a far greater education system to operate, and we must retain our graduates for that. The position at present is quite alarming. In Glasgow, during the last four years, in science, engineering and technology, 1,374 graduates were trained. Only 42 per cent. of those remained in Scotland. The rest came to England, and that is not counting those who went abroad. In Edinburgh, only 34 per cent. were retained. We have been losing the type of man who can guarantee that Scotland will be equipped for the future.
  I return now to the problem I mentioned at the beginning. In Scotland, we have to suffer an obstinate and persistent level of unemployment year by year, in
  1540
  good years and in bad years. which is double that of England. Unless we can successfully tackle that overall problem, we shall never really succeed in making Scotland prosperous. It should be part of the Government's policy, written into their policy, that they intend that the Scottish unemployment figure shall, within measureable time, be reduced and maintained at a figure comparable with that in the South. Until we can do that in Scotland and give Scotland as a whole the feeling that it will be a prosperous and expanding country, not one with an obstinate and persistent level of unemployment, we shall not retain our graduates.
  We are doing something to accelerate the pace of industry. We are doing a lot to make the progress of education more rapid. But not nearly enough is being dome in Scotland to make Scotland a prosperous country as attractive to its young men as it should be.
  7.9 p.m.
  Mr. R. E. Prentice: I cannot avoid commenting that the speech of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George), especially in the latter part of it, was very contradictory. He made a stout defence of the right of industry—I could say "employers" because, although he spoke of industry, he clearly had in mind only one side of it—to make its own policy on training. He quoted to us communications from the British Employers' Confederation and referred to the letter it sent out urging firms to do more. He quoted one or two examples of what was being done by the best firms.
  Then the hon. Gentleman said—this is really one of the basic points in the whole debate—that not nearly enough is being done. He said that we must have more group training schemes, more day release, and so on. In other words, industry, left to itself, is not fulfilling its task, having regard to the national good. I want to return to that point later, and to suggest that something should be done about it, but I wanted to make that comment at the outset, because it seemed to me that there was this profound contradiction in what the hon. Member was saying.
  Earlier in his speech the hon. Member said much with which I agree. In fact, is has been a rather extraordinary feature of the debate that so far the speeches

  1541
  from both sides have tended to emphasise the same points; but one basic criticism which I have, and which I think some of my hon. Friends will have, of the speeches from the other side is that they have underestimated the crisis with which the bulge confronts this country. I felt, when the Parliamentary Secretary was speaking, that he said quite a lot about good intentions, with which we would all agree, but completely played down the seriousness of this situation.
  We know that by 1962 the number of school-leavers will be 25 or 30 per cent. above the number this year, and over 50 per cent. more than the number in 1956. We know that these extra school-leavers will coincide with the end of National Service. Indeed, the Parliamentary Secretary himself told us that this double process—the ending of National Service and the bulge—will release on to the labour market about 1 million extra workers.
  The hon. Gentleman said that we absorbed 1 million extra workers in the last ten years, hut, surely, there are two features of this situation which are different. These extra workers are to come on the labour market in a shorter period. They will not be spread smoothly over ten years, but will flood on to the market in two or three years. Another thing is that they will be concentrated amongst young people, and will not be people of all ages. Most serious of all, we are looking ahead to this situation in a year or two hence against a background of the economic stagnation which we have had in this country for the last four years.
  If we were able to say now that our economy has been expanding for the last four years, and that we could face with confidence the prospect of expanding in the next few years on something like the same rate, we could talk fairly confidently about absorbing this addition to the labour force without having too much to worry about. The fact is that there is a grave situation facing school-leavers now, before the bulge has reached the labour market. I think that the critical seriousness of this situation is something which hon. Gentlemen opposite have underestimated.
  I should like to make a brief quotation from a report for 1957–58, made to the West Ham borough council by the youth employment officer and I deliberately chose this quotation not only to make a
  1542
  constituency point, but also because my constituency is one with less unemployment than the national average. Even so, we read such a statement as this:
  "The fears which were expressed in the Annual Report 1956–57 about the danger of unemployment amongst juveniles in industry have proved justified and, in consequence, the work of the Service has increased considerably… A further attempt was made during the year to persuade local employers to increase their intake of apprentices but without result."
  Referring to the procedure which has been used for many years by the visits to factories for prospective school-leavers to see local industry, the report said:
  "Some employers are very reluctant to grant facilities for such visits in present circumstances since they are anxious not to give the impression that vacancies for young persons will be available."
  These are a few extracts to illustrate the attitude of employers to youth employment in an area which has less unemployment than the national average, and before the bulge has had any effect on the situation.
  Other speakers have pointed out that the cost of this crisis, if it is not solved, is both economic and human. I feel that the Carr Committee did a valuable service in highlighting the economic cost of not taking advantage of the bulge, and also, at the same time, of the opportunity which the bulge has presented. Not only do they say that we have not enough skilled workers in the country at present, but they are reminding us that our economy will develop in the next century in such a way that we shall need a larger proportion of skilled workers than we have now.
  The pattern of world trade is changing. Our economy must be more flexible, and we shall have to develop new skills. We shall have a higher proportion of elderly people and a smaller working population in proportion, which means that the working population will need to be more skilled and have a higher proportion of trained people than it had in the past. There will be a severe economic price to pay if we do not take the unique opportunity presented by the bulge and use it to train adequate numbers of skilled workers required.
  I should like also to emphasise what was said on the human cost of unemployment among young people if it

  1543
  is allowed to persist or, indeed, to increase. It seems to me that a lot of nonsense is talked about modern youth, and that it is always the unusual and the criminal which is emphasised rather than the healthy normal aspects. At the same time, everybody would agree that adolescence is a testing period, with many problems, and that one of the worst things that can happen to a boy or girl after leaving school is to experience a period of unemployment, because thereby they are made to feel that they are not wanted in society. They have, after all, been at school, where they have been exhorted to work hard, and they hear people talking about the expensive education which they have had and reminding them how they must work to justify it. If, after that, they have to wait a very long time to find a job, it is a very frustrating experience, which can have the most dangerous results.
  One other aspect of the matter has not been mentioned. For some boys and girls, it is a good thing that they try one job and do note like it, and then try another, and perhaps make two or three changes before they finally settle down. Not every boy and girl leaving school knows what he or she wants to do or is best fitted for, and part of the price we have to pay for this situation which is now developing is that it will become increasingly difficult, if not altogether impossible, to do that. Having got a job of some sort, the boy or girl will feel bound to hang on to it at all costs, because if he or she loses or leaves it, it may be many months before he or she finds anything else, and may have to take up something worse than they have before.
  I return now to the theme of the speech of the hon. Member for Pollok. It seems to me that industry is not facing up to the challenge of or the advice given it by the Carr committee. Indeed, I have here a quotation from a speech made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour in Lancaster, at a "Training for Industry" conference some time last month, in which he was answering some criticisms, and in which he said:
  "Some question the basis of these conclusions"—
  that is, the need for extra training—
  "and say that the Carr committee budgeted for expansion whereas in 1958 the economy was contracting, and that automation would
  1544
  reduce the demand for skilled workers. Both of these statements are wrong."
  Further on, the hon. Gentleman said:
  "It is precisely at a time of recession that the intake into apprenticeship must increase."
  There, I think, the hon. Gentleman is profoundly right.
  If, in a time of recession, the intake into apprenticeships increases, it achieves two things. It reduces the unemployment at the time, and also provides a reservoir of skilled workers for later, when the economy will expand again. What I think he is saying is that there is something of a conflict between the long-term interests of the community and the short-term interests of industry and particular firms. The hon. Gentleman is asking firms to take a very long view, whereas inevitably, though perhaps wrongly, many take a short-term view, and say, "We cannot afford to do it, and will not do anything about it."
  It seems to me that the Government's attitude in this situation should be as follows. First, their policy cannot succeed properly unless it is carried out against a background of an expanding economy. An expansion in our economy is the biggest single factor to make industry change its mind. I cannot go into the arguments about that—to do so might be out of order, especially if I attempted to turn this into a postcript to the debate on the Budget. It seems to me, however, that industry does not possess the confidence that expansion is about to begin and will continue which is necessary if it is to respond to the request which we have made to it about the training of workers. If there were an expanding economy and confidence that expansion would continue, the Government would have won four-fifths of the battle. Without this expansion, any other policies will produce meagre results.
  What other policies are needed to follow up the expansion? First, the Government should have a lot more information. One thing to which the Carr Committee drew attention was the lack of statistics of apprenticeships and training schemes generally. There was no national register. National joint councils in some industries kept figures, but others did not. Some employers' organisations had the figures concerning federated firms, but not the figures relating to firms outside the federation. The whole picture was haphazard.

  1545
  A Government which is trying to plan the situation and trying to bring about an improvement should know where the main vacancies exist and where the pressure should be applied, both within industries and within areas. I am told that in Paris, one can go to the appropriate Government office and ask an official what are the prospects for the employment of young people in, say, Montelimar, in five years' time. The figures are turned up and one gets an answer industry by industry from the research organisation. Nothing of that sort exists in this country and it seems to me that it should be available.
  I come next to the question of financial inducements and I should like to make a comment about the figure of £75,000 which is to be granted to the Industrial Training Council for, I understand, the recruitment and training of training officers. Since this is a once-for-all grant to be applied over a number of years and over the whole country, it appears to me to be very small. I am wondering whether, when we have a reply to this debate, we can be told how that figure is arrived at. Aid of this size can only scratch the surface of the problem. At least, that is my own impression. I should like to know from the Government spokesman how the figure was reached.
  There is a lot to be said for applying to industry a financial reward in the form of tax remissions or something of that sort for training schemes combined, perhaps, with a general levy on firms to pay for the training schemes. It could be the sort of arrangement by which money is extracted from industry but is remitted back when it does the right sort of job. Many countries in Europe have tax remissions for training. I believe that in sow. countries the social insurance contributions for apprentices are paid by the State. There are many ways in which this help can be given. Indeed I am informed that the Parliamentary Secretary is taking the chair this weekend at an international seminar on these problems. I hope that he will take the opportunity to refresh himself on some of these ideas from other countries and see how far they might be applied here.
  When that has been said, however, it seems to me also that some measure of
  1546
  compulsion is needed. This problem is part of the Labour Party's general case for greater public control over the economy of the country. Problems of this nature, which are so vital to our survival as an industrial nation, are the sort of problems which cannot be left entirely to industry. The Government must reserve to themselves some kind of control by which to insist on good standards and to bring the firms which are lagging behind up to the standards of the best firms.
  The Industrial Training Council, which has started its work, should be asked not to devote too much of its time to apprenticeships. I am probably the last Member who should criticise people paying attention to apprenticeships. I share with the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr) the distinction of having heard my name mentioned several times during the debate, although, unlike the hon. Member for Mitcham, I have done nothing to deserve this distinction. The question of other forms of training than apprenticeship training should receive far greater emphasis. This point was well developed by my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu). I do not want to repeat his arguments, but they are of importance. The way in which industry is developing is blurring the old distinctions between skilled and unskilled occupations. All kinds of categories of skilled work are being introduced and they should have the form of training which is appropriate to them.
  Another thing which, I hope, will be done by the Industrial Training Council is to devote a good deal of attention to the provision of apprenticeships and other forms of training for girls as well as for boys. Because of our need for increased skills in so many directions, we cannot possibly continue the attitude that we have had in the past of regarding this as almost solely a boys' problem and one which applies hardly at all to girls. The prospect of changing this attitude is rather academic if everybody is afraid of rising unemployment. If everybody is afraid of the bulge and of how we are to cope with the growing numbers of boys leaving school, we can hardly expect to make progress in dealing with the problem of the girls. Obviously, therefore, we are dependent upon an expansion of the economy so that people will have confidence that they can do something. If

  1547
  confidence is established, a big drive will be needed to extend technical education for girls.
  I turn next to the position of disabled young people. The East Ham committee to whose report I have referred has had great difficulty in placing a total of nine young people—six boys and three girls—who were on the disabled persons' register. The report contains an expression of fear that with growing unemployment, firms will be increasingly unwilling to take disabled people over and above the numbers required by existing legislation. Two of the young people referred to in the report were still unplaced at the time the report was issued and they appear to present a permanent problem. I should like to know whether this is a general problem which is developing throughout the country and whether it is becoming more difficult to place disabled young people. If so, it is a particularly tragic example of the difficulties we face and I hope that this aspect will be watched carefully by the Government.
  The present situation makes it urgent to do something as soon as possible to implement the 1944 Education Act in two respects: first, in raising the school-leaving age as soon as that can be done—although I do not underestimate the difficulties in the supply of teachers—and also in making a start as soon as possible in the provision of county colleges.
  Mr. Ede: It is not merely the additional teachers, but the additional classrooms, that would be required. Surely, that is one of the reasons for hoping that the building trade will have a rather better time in the future than some people now expect.
  Mr. Prentice: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I was abbreviating the difficulties simply because I did not wish to take up too much more time. In the present situation, there is added reason for trying to carry these things through as quickly as possible. When we speak of the need for greater skill in our working population, it is a question not only of technical skill, but of the need for a higher level of general education.
  We should also remember this aspect. For most boys and girls, the jump from school to work is very abrupt. One week they are at school, the next week
  1548
  at work. This is a bad thing in two ways. It is bad from the educational point of view, because, knowing that this break is coming, the last few months of school life take on a rather unreal basis. The boy or girl is looking forward to being able to go out and earn money, to have the extra status of being a worker and to get out of school uniform. Education seems to stop and in a sense they feel that it has stopped for the rest of their lives, or at least many of them do.
  If the transition were more gradual, if there is a period of, say, half-time education or education for two days a week, then it will be valuable, not only because of the extra academic work that is done, but also because it may give a different attitude towards education which would remain with a person throughout his life. Another important point is that it would ease the transition to working life and be less of a psychological shock than it is in many cases at present. If the Parliamentary Secretary can say anything about making a start in some areas with county colleges, that will be a most valuable addition to the debate.
  This is a complex subject in which there are many aspects and each of us can select only one or two, but underlying the whole matter we on these benches feel that the Government should show a greater sense of urgency and a greater recognition that this country faces a very real crisis of large dimensions that requires much bolder planning than has been shown up to now.
  7.32 p.m.
  Mr. R. P. Hornby: The hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) ended on a note upon which I am glad to start. I am sure that many of us share his view that we want to do all we can to blur the sharpness of the change from education at school to what I should like to call continuing education in industry. Also, I, for one, share the point which he made earlier, namely, that we are not talking about apprenticeships as something entirely separate from many other forms of training, both in the higher and lower ranges of skill in industry. I should like to refer to that point in a moment.
  About eight years ago, a survey was published arising out of some social work conducted in Glasgow on the records of 1,300 schoolboys who left school in 1947

  1549
  and whose subsequent careers for three years thereafter were watched in great detail. I should like to quote one short passage from that survey:
  "There can be but small cause for complacency in a community where, at age 17, 3 years after leaving school, one in four of the boys who left school at 14 is still in a stop-gap job with no clear idea of what his life work is to be; where less than half of them have undergone sustained training for work demanding skill and responsibility; where aimless shifting about from job to job is still characteristic of one boy in four; where three in four have never made use of the most obvious facilities for continued education—even in continuation classes—and about half have never had a church connection or joined any organised social group; and where the most regular leisure activity of 88 per cent. of them is the weekly visit to the pictures."
  As an hon. Member said earlier in the debate, we are short of facts and figures and we do not know to what extent such a picture as that is true today. We have made a good deal of progress in the social sphere. Housing is better, health is better and there has been a longish period of full employment in many parts of the country. Education is continuing for longer periods and more boys and girls are slaying on at school. Yet we cannot be by any means complacent, as almost every hon. Member has emphasised. We arc concerned with the transition from the shelter of school life to the changes and chances of adult life.
  I should like to consider some of the problems, bearing in mind a background of four main points. First, I should like to deal with the size of the bulge coming out of the schools at present. The figure of 613,000 in 1956 will change to 929,000 in 1962 and will settle at about 740,000 by 1965.
  Secondly, a point which has been emphasised again and again, the supply of skilled people is falling short of demand, even in areas where there is considerable unemployment. Skilled people are scarce and there are very few signs that industry is increasing its numbers of apprentices. The figures quoted by the Parliamentary Secretary show that between 1957 and 1958 there was, in fact, a slight decline, Thirdly, we are all convinced that the nation will need more and more skilled people if it is to earn its living. Fourthly, it should be emphasised that the majority of boys and girls are still leaving school at 15 years of age The vast majority of them are entering adult
  1550
  life at a time when they are still adolescents.
  Against that background, I should like to pose the following questions. First, can industry absorb the growing number of school leavers? Secondly, have we the machinery to place young people not merely in a job, but in the right job? This is an important point. Boys and girls should not make frequent changes in the earlier stages of their career. We should ensure that we have the machinery to put our young people in jobs where they will be content and where they can stretch their abilities, but not over-stretch them, and so get the right person into the right job. Thirdly, having got people into a job, to what extent can we be sure that industry can train and manage its young people? Fourthly, to what extent can industry estimate its own needs and the needs of the country as a whole?
  To deal with the problem of absorbing the bulge: I can see no numerical reason why industry should not be capable of doing this. I do not think we should think of school leavers in this context in isolation from the rest of the working population. The things that matter are the total working population, in the first place, and the prospects for production in the country as a whole, in the second place. That is the context in which school leavers either will or will not be able to find a job.
  As to the size of the working population as a whole, it is expected that during the decade which we are considering, 1956 to 1966, the figures will rise by 800,000, an increase of 4 per cent. I should like to compare that, because it is comforting, with the figures for 1951–55, when the working population rose by about 1 million people, an increase of 4 per cent., which was easily absorbed. Labour at that time was scarce. I agree that the production figures are slightly different between the two periods.
  Secondly, employment prospects are conditioned by our competitive power and ability to sell overseas. I shall not make a budget speech, but we must recognise that fact. I agree with the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr), that our prospects are all the better if we can be sure that enough skilled people will be

  1551
  available. We shall certainly help ourselves if we can improve the outflow of skilled people.
  The next problem is how to place school leavers in the right jobs. Here I should like to say something about which little has been said so far, namely, the work of the Youth Employment Service, which is relevant to this debate. I have been very impressed by what I have been able to find out about its work.
  It seems to me that the essentials are these. First, full exchange of information between, first of all, the Youth Employment Service and the schools on the one hand, and secondly, between the Youth Employment Service and prospective employers on the other. The second essential is the very high calibre we must have in our youth employment officers, because their job is not an easy one. It is a field job, involving contact with and winning the confidence of parents, teachers, young people leaving school, and the employers. This is not the sort of job which can be done except by properly skilled and able people.
  I think that the system of the Youth Service by and large, the machine which it provides, is a good one and seems to work well; with the visits to the school and the interview with the child at the beginning of the last year; then, following from that, contacts with employers, partly interviews with individual employers, also through the youth employment committee, and, equally important, partly by the follow-up work of "open evenings", which take place when people come back three months or so after starting their first jobs and report on how they are getting on. The more we can know about how the Service is working and the number of people it manages to place the better. In Kent, about 60 per cent. of the school leavers are effectively placed in their first jobs by the Youth Employment Service.
  On the question of placing people, I should like to make one or two comments which I think may be of interest to either my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education or my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service. The first is on the exchange of information between the youth employ-
  1552
  ment officers and the schools, on the one hand, and the employers on the other.
  It is most important that reports from the school should be confidential, as they are. They should be. I would deplore, and I hope that my hon. Friends will do anything they can to deprecate, the practice which occurs from time to time of employers trying to demand the right to see school reports. There is the school report between the school and the Service and there is the other report to the parents. It seems to me that both those documents should be confidential, more especially the one to the parents. I would deplore any attempt by employers to be allowed to see those reports, because it would make them gradually less informative and confidential if that practice were to spread.
  The next point on the placing of people in jobs is the fact that the Youth Employment Service shares the view that the age limits of the apprenticeship schemes are too rigid. I hope that something may be done to relax them. It is, of course, being done in some industries. One industry in my own constituency, the printing industry, already does relax those ages of entry. I would particularly like to see the remission granted for the length of apprenticeship of anyone to pass the G.C.E. and to take that course, because if that is not done there is at least to some extent a deterrent against staying on at school, which is something we are trying to encourage.
  I should like to ask my hon. Frend what progress is being made in the analysis of jobs and what is being done to help the Youth Employment Service to do this work. I think it was mentioned in the Report for the years 1953 to 1956 of the National Youth Employment Council, when it suggested that more use might be made of standardised methods of examining and evaluating exactly what was required in selected industries and in the jobs there so that the Youth Employment Service might have a clearer idea of what exactly was going to be required of the people it was trying to place. I should like to know whether any progress has been made with this question of job analysis and what use it has been to youth employment officers.
  I should like to ask whether it might not be practicable to change the date of school-leaving age from the end of the

  1553
  term in which the child reaches the age of 15 to the end of the fourth year of the secondary course. I think that this is sound from the educational point of view, bearing in mind that we are thinking of trades requiring greater skills and with better apprenticeships; and to secondary education it would be very welcome.
  I know there are difficulties from the employment point of view. Employers certainly would dislike it because it would mean people from the schools coming on to the labour market on fewer occasions, so that their problem would therefore be all the more difficult. However, there is a serious educational advantage in trying to make that change if we can. I suspect that the Ministry of Labour and the Ministry of Education may disagree on the point, but I would ask them whether they would try to find some way to make that change possible.
  My next point concerns the problem of training management once we have got a young person into industry. I want to emphasise two things. First, I believe it is very much a problem of personality. I believe that what is all-important for a young person going into industry for the first time is the impression created on him by the first person who is supervising his work, the first person who is responsible for him. I think that impressing that fact on to anyone in charge of a training scheme is of vital importance to the success of this transition from school to employment.
  Next—and this has been mentioned by very many people—is the problem of the small firm. I do think that if this is going to go right it is vitally important that in every firm, whatever its size, top management, the very top, should really make it their business to see that training schemes are of real importance and priority. Unless top management set the tempo this will not go right and we shall not get the results we want.
  As to small firms, I should like to emphasise this, because in my area, for instance, the vast majority of the firms and the employers employ not 100 but, say, 25 or fewer. In their case, it is no good talking in terms of the personnel officer or of training schemes. We are talking now of firms with one person, perhaps two, under the age of 18. I
  1554
  realise that we are here up against the main difficulty of expanding apprenticeship schemes, but many suggestions have been made, notably by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham, which I do not want to go over again, but on which I want to make two points.
  One relates particularly to the rural areas. I would particularly like to emphasise and support what my hon. Friend said namely, that the block release scheme is probably in many cases more suitable than the day release scheme, particularly in agriculture where the day release scheme at the busiest times of the year is just not on. One can understand the reason of the employers. It is much better to have block release schemes at the slack times of the year. I would suggest that the principle applies to many other industries where employment is seasonal.
  One suggestion I would make. I believe, and I agree with the points which have already been made about it, that there is scope in enlarging the assistance which is given to the training of instructors. I think this would have as big an impact as anything which could be done. How that will be done I do not now attempt to go into, as other hon. Members wish to speak in this debate, but I believe that should be the next step forward.
  In trying to get the tempo quickened, I think there is some scope for schools to develop a vocational bias, particularly in the last year in the secondary modern schools. I believe that this can help to fill in many of the gaps.
  Mr. Ede: Would it not be a good thing also if they increased the vocational courses for the year or two years beyond the time of compulsory education as an inducement to children to stay on after 15 years of age?
  Mr. Hornby: I was thinking mainly in terms of the fifteen, sixteen and even seventeen-year-old pupils in secondary-modern schools. I do not want to see too narrow a specialisation too early in the schools. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has enabled me to make that point.
  Then there is the very big problem of estimating future needs. If we have too few skilled people, as nearly all of us fear we are in some danger of having

  1555
  unless we give a major push to this enterprise, we shall hold back the nation's progress, lower its living standards and diminish its competitive powers. On the other hand, there is a danger that if we train too many people in particular groups we run the risk of frustration. I am more prepared to run that risk, and I see no danger of it at present. I think also that something has been achieved by training, whether or not we find the precise niche for that person. Something has been achieved in educating him and giving him a skill.
  I was particularly interested in the point made earlier by the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) when he hoped that we might make it possible for skilled people to transfer more easily from one job to another. This will happen frequently in an age of technological changes, and if we do not give skilled people a chance of retraining we shall cause a great deal of frustration. In estimating future needs, I should like to emphasise again the point made already, that we know far too little and we need to accumulate a great deal of the information that presumably lies about somewhere.
  We have the Carr Report, we have the Industrial Training Council, periodical reports from the National Youth Employment Council, and sections in the Ministry of Labour Annual Reports referring to the Youth Employment Service. Here are a great many reports covering some of the information we want. If we want to impress upon employers, in particular, and on the trade unions to what extent we fall short of present and future needs, we should try to bring all this information together in one report. I should like to know whether it is intended that a body like the Industrial Training Council, or any such reformed body, will be asked to produce an annual report in which it would give us this information. It would be a great help if that were done.
  If we really feel the urgency of impressing upon industry the need to put its training schemes in the best possible order, there might well be a place for something like the document produced by the Ministry of Labour, entitled "Positive Employment Policies", dealing specifically with training schemes where they are well done, with large, medium and small firms and with schemes work-
  1556
  ing in both industrial and rural areas. This might help to get a little steam behind what we are trying to do.
  There has been a great deal of agreement between the two sides of the Committee. We are all driving towards the same end. In the course of debate, many suggestions have been made which I hope will prove useful and which will enable us in the next five years to see a very substantial increase in the number of trained and skilled people in the country.
  7.53 p.m.
  Miss Elaine Burton: I am glad to follow in the debate the hon. Member for Tonbridge (Mr. Hornby), because he has referred to the Youth Employment Service. I was Chairman of the Select Committee on Estimates which reported recently on this Service. We spent almost a year seeing people who are very knowledgeable on the subject, including youth employment officers and representatives of the Ministry of Labour and the Ministry of Education.
  I think that all of us in the Committee, and certainly people outside who know about the Service, would wish a public tribute to be paid to it. I do not think that it has had enough recognition. This Service is vitally important to youth employment, and for that reason I am glad that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education is to wind up the debate. I know that he will have read the Select Committee's Report, and I should like to know what he feels about it.
  First, I should like to say something about the general criticism of the Youth Employment Service made by a Treasury witness before the Select Committee that its scope is unduly wide and the service itself unnecessarily elaborate when considered in relation to the low unemployment rate among young people. This seemed to us quite untrue. It filled me with horror.
  The actual words used by this witness must obviously be public knowledge since they are now on record. Answering a question as to whether or not the Service was necessary on its present scale, he said:
  "But if you view it against the fact that there is now about 1 per cent. unemployment among juveniles, that there is a very large number of vacancies—much larger than the number of children or juveniles seeking employment—it does seem to us questionable whether

  1557
  the service may not be rather more elaborate than is really necessary for the essential purposes of the Act."
  We on the Select Committee felt that whilst that view might be held at a desk it was totally divorced from reality from the point of view of young people in the outside world.
  I am sure that all hon. Members will agree when I say that we felt that the unemployment rate was quite irrelevant and that the true value of the Service lay in making the best use of the talents and abilities of our young people and that it should be judged by its success or failure in doing that. We all have to live with the Treasury, however, whichever party is in power, and it may be that remarks made in the Committee today may bolster up a demand, which I shall certainly make, for more money from the Treasury for this worthy service.
  Mr. Ede: Would it not be better to say that we exist with the Treasury rather than that we live with it?
  Miss Burton: I am sure that would be much better. As we all know, the Select Committee on Estimates cannot recommend increases in expenditure. It can only recommend decreases. Therefore, we on that Committee compromised by doing neither, because we certainly felt that increases were necessary.
  There is another point on which I should be glad to have the comments of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education at the end of the debate. One of the problems of the Youth Employment Service, from the viewpoint of the people engaged in it, is the question of status. In giving evidence before the Select Committee, an officer of the National Association of Youth Employment Officers said that the association had
  "had a continuing desire to be represented on the National Youth Employment Council."
  We were told that the matter had been raised several times but so far with no success.
  Another point which the Association raised and one which I think is particularly important was that the Association had tried very hard to sponsor the establishment of a diploma for vocational guidance. I hold no particular brief for that diploma. We did not find out enough
  1558
  about it, but a witness said that the association felt that there was
  "a real need for a professional qualification and we had been unsuccessful over a period of many years in getting anyone to sponsor a proper qualification for youth employment officers."
  All members of the Select Committee regretted that there was no recognised diploma for youth employment officers, and they hoped that something might come out of this suggestion. We think that that would add immeasurably to their status.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Sir Edward Boyle): Without in any way being discourteous to this highly important body of people, if we were to agree to every diploma that was suggested to us in the course of the year the whole country would become a network of diplomas of one kind or another. Because we are sometimes rather cautious about this kind of request, it does not mean that we do not take it closely to mind.
  Miss Burton: I think I said that I was not holding any brief for this particular diploma, but I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary not to be so anxious that indeed we get nowhere. There is always that danger.
  The youth employment officers felt not only that they were getting nowhere but that they were going back, and perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could give us some help as to what recognised diploma, I do not care which, there is to be for youth employment officers. It is only fair, if one suggestion is not accepted, to put forward another.
  The following remarks came not from the Select Committee but from people on the job:
  "But, frankly, we just have not got the staff and the organisation to do the job as we would wish to do it. I think we would say that information and advice in schools is sound—it could he better, but it is sound; vocational guidance within the limits of the job we do is good; placing in employment is restricted to some extent because we cannot visit all the employers we would like; and review of progress, which I think could be a vital factor in reducing wastage in further education and increasing the number of technologists, etc., we cannot do at all as we would like to do it because of our difficulties."
  They went on to say that they could not do this because they have not got sufficient workers. That is the point of my argument.

  1559
  They pointed out that one of the difficulties was the ratio of pupils to qualified vocational guidance advisers. Another difficulty was that a good deal of first-hand visits to employers was very necessary. We all accept that, but they went on to state that in times of pressure it was the visit of those advisers to the factories that went by the board. Those were the things that they had not got time to do. They felt that there was no answer to that except having more staff, which means more money, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will comment on this.
  I do not know how many hon. Members received a pamphlet from the Engineering Industries Association Group Apprenticeship. On page 6, the association speaks of local training committees. Does the Parliamentary Secretary know whether these local training committees are functioning properly, because I discussed this with the union in Coventry, which is of the opinion that these committees are not doing so? The union was also of the opinion that employers were not showing sufficient interest in these committees. I would be grateful if the Parliamentary Secretary would deal with this point when he replies.
  What steps have been taken to encourage employers to provide training schemes for boys and girls as distinct from the normal apprenticeship arrangements? I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary considers that is a matter for the Ministry of Labour, but I would be glad to hear what he has to say about it.
  At a meeting of the British Productivity Association not long ago, reference was made to the importance of teachers visiting industry. The association said that one of the most important things had been the organisation of a series of visits to local factories by teachers, and the long-term objective was to have one teacher in each school who would have an adequate knowledge of industry. Can the Parliamentary Secretary say how far that proposal has been developed?
  At the beginning of this year there was a Careers Festival in Coventry. It was the second one that we had had in the city, and it lasted some five days. I do not know whether other hon. Members have had experience of this kind
  1560
  of thing in their own constituencies, but it was of great interest as recently qualified young people were able to give first-hand reports of their jobs and how they were finding them. Without casting any aspersions on the older people, it was very useful to the young people to hear what these recently qualified young people themselves thought about it.
  In January of this year, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour went to Coventry and spoke at a meeting of the Coventry Productivity Association, but his remarks were addressed to the country as a whole and not only to Coventry. He said this, which is also what we have been saying; and it will obviously have greater validity for the Government if I quote what was said by the Parliamentary Secretary:
  "If firms are unwilling to take apprentices today because economic conditions are temporarily unfavourable, then it is the most certain way of missing the tide when the flow of economic expansion begins again."
  He went on to say that
  "the present intake of craft apprentices was going to be wholly inadequate for future needs. The report of the Carr Committee on this situation…suggested that the shortage of skilled workers was going to get a good deal worse unless something was done quickly."
  The Parliamentary Secretary then went on to speak about small firms, about which we have heard a good deal tonight. In the Report of the Select Committee, it is interesting to note that the youth employment officers said that it was the smaller employer who could not offer good training facilities who was often unwilling to co-operate with the youth employment officers. It was not the larger firms who had sound personnel officers and training schemes. That information is from a totally different quarter, and provides additional evidence that it is the small firms which are the problem in this particular matter.
  The Parliamentary Secretary went on to say:
  "Unless employers associations take a lead in promoting such things as group apprenticeship schemes then very little is going to get done. The trade unions also had a great responsibility, and he hoped to see them actively demanding better training facilities and persuading their members to accept necessary changes."
  The unions in Coventry certainly do accept their responsibilities, and the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions has been very concerned about

  1561
  this. They have had several discussions on the question of the employment of young workers and they want jobs, as we all do, which will give scope for proper training where these young people will not be used as cheap labour or pushed into blind alley occupations.
  I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education listened to a radio discussion in February, 1959, between Mr. Heginbotham, Chief Youth Employment Officer in Birmingham, and Mr. Jack Jones. the Regional Officer of the Transport and General Workers Union. The youth employment officer said that the trade unions would have to reexamine their apprenticeship policies in the light of changed conditions and allow a more generous ratio of apprentices to skilled craftsmen. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could get some information from the Ministry of Labour and give us the answer when he winds up the debate. The trade union representative, Mr. Jack Jones, challenged that viewpoint, and I think it is something which we ought to get straight. He said:
  "On the contrary, it is the employers who are unwilling to bear the cost of training apprentices who are responsible for this lack of apprenticeships. In a few industries there is a fixed ratio of apprentices to skilled men. Printing, boiler making and shipyard work. There is hardly any in the general engineering industry."
  I wonder whether the Parliamentary Secretary can clear that up. Where does the blame lie for the restriction on the intake of apprentices into industry? I think we should like to have that settled.
  We all try to get what figures we can on these matters. Obviously only the Government Front Bench are able to obtain them relatively easily. But I think it true that every year since the war about 640,000 boys and girls have reached the age of 15. With the difference in the rise in the birth rate at the end of the war, I am told the number reached this summer will be 776,000. In 1961 it will be 857,000, and at the peak in 1962 the figure will be 929,000. Just over half are boys.
  Industry provides less than 100,000 apprenticeships a year, so if the figures given to me are correct, A means, roughly, that there will be an apprenticeship for one out of every three boys. Obviously, this is not enough if we are to have an
  1562
  expanding industrial effort, as we hope. The position will become worse. In 1958, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) said, the number of apprenticeships available actually declined. One of our most skilled industrial correspondents, with whom I discussed the matter, said that he felt that if the present number of apprenticeship opportunities did not increase by about 35,000 a year only one in every four boys would be trained as skilled workers. In 1962 the ratio would be one in five. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to comment on that, but the prospect of only one in five boys obtaining a skilled apprenticeship in 1962 is very alarming.
  We all enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr), and I am sure that all hon. Members have read with great interest the Report of the Committee over which he presided. Out of that Report came the Industrial Training Council, on which there are representatives of employers, the unions, nationalised industries, the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Labour and National Service. The Council meets four times a year. I do not believe—and people with whom I have discussed youth employment matters over the last few years do not believe—that this Council is doing an effective job. I was interested to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton suggest the reorganisation or reconstruction of that Council.
  The criticisms I have met have not been directed against the members of the Council, but simply against the fact that here were busy people with many other jobs to do who met four times a year and who could not possibly make constructive and energetic proposals about a matter of urgency. I hope we shall hear more from the Parliamentary Secretary.
  Two points were made in the Carr Report. The hon. Member for Mitcham himself said that the greatly increased number of young people represented an additional supply of potential skill which we cannot allow to be wasted. Secondly—and what I am about to say I consider even more important— these young people will expect—we think they have a right to expect—that their opportunities for training for skilled employment should not be adversely affected because they happen to have been born at a particular time.

  1563
  What about the young people themselves? There is a sense of frustration among young people who cannot get jobs. I have no desire to hark back to the past, but in the 1930s in South Wales I saw young people who could not get jobs and merely propped up street corners after leaving school. Incidentally, the ones I knew got jobs when the war came. No one who has seen that once wishes 10 see it again. In Coventry, perhaps not as much as in other places, we have seen the same sights again within the last few months. We have seen young people without jobs. These young people with whom I have talked feel that they wish to get somewhere in their work. I hold no brief for those who are always decrying the younger generation. I think that the youngsters possess guts and ability and want to get on. If anything is wrong, it is that we adults have given them this sense of frustration.
  I know that the T.U.C. agrees that many young workers are disappointed at the lack of adequate training and opportunities for training, and also they are often gravely disappointed at the apparent lack of interest shown by management and by supervisers. One of the real problems is mass production work. I do not know whether it is right to say that older people do not mind doing mass production work, but I do not think some do. But youngsters dislike it. A youngster who gets a job and is put on mass production work soon finds himself weary at the thought that the future for him consists solely in doing this one job, one minute operation which he learned in the first few weeks of his employment. The thought of spending the rest of his life at this employment promotes something even worse than a sense of frustration. It gives him a grudge against society. I think that to be an important matter in the attitude of young people towards life today, which is something we must examine.
  If this continues and so few apprenticeships are available, if young workers have to accept this limited manual dexterity and have no opportunity to develop their potentials, I believe that they will come into conflict with the rest of society and try to reassert themselves and to show their own individuality. Any hon. Member who has ever been a teacher or had anything to do with welfare work knows
  1564
  that if one has a difficult youngster to deal with it is best to give him something to do. Sometimes in the House if an hon. Member proves difficult he finds his way on to the Front Bench and becomes very nice and quiet. [Laughter.] I can only suggest that we might bear in mind that if these youngsters are not absorbed in the jobs they are given to do they will find other outlets simply because they think the future is disappointing. Responsibility for that will lie with us and not with the young people.
  I was interested recently to read of some inquiries made of young people throughout the country, and one of the questions asked of them was, "What contributes most to a good job?" I doubt very much if adults anywhere in the country would have given better or more balanced replies. In view of what we hear about "Teddy boys," I think we ought to look at some of the replies. To this question, "What contributes most to a good job?" 24 per cent. said, "Good wages"; 23 per cent. said "Interesting work to do"; and 16 per cent. said "Pleasant people to work with."
  Wherever the blame may lie, I believe the evidence has been overwhelming tonight that the present system of training young people does not meet the full needs of industry, nor of the country, nor of the young people. That is accepted by everyone, and I think that the Parliamentary Secretary must accept it. Boys and girls who want to learn and are qualified to learn are denied the opportunity, and they are looking to us to give a lead. I should like the Minister tonight to pay further tribute to the Youth Employment Service by emphasising its importance and thereby increasing its status. I should like to put in a plea to the Government on behalf of all the people working in that service to see that more money is forthcoming for it.
  I noted what the Parliamentary Secretary said about a £75,000 grant to the Industrial Training Council, and one is glad about that. I wonder whether the Parliamentary Secretary would consider a suggestion that the Industrial Training Council, or some similar organisation, should be asked to produce a plan for expanding the apprenticeship intake and give a date by which this should be done. In the Industrial Training Council we have representatives of the employers and the unions, and it seems to me that

  1565
  nothing definite is being put forward. America, Germany and France have all done more in research and forward-looking projects for apprenticeships than we have. This is urgent; and it is important.
  I have found that among all those connected with youth employment problems—and this has no connection with party politics—whether it is locally in Coventry or nationally, there is a strong feeling that the Government have not treated this problem with sufficient energy and sufficient urgency: and no one will be more pleased tonight if I am wrong and the Government can prove that they have done that.
  8.20 p.m.
  Miss Joan Vickers: I am glad to have the opportunity to speak after the hon. Lady the Member for Coventry, South (Miss Burton). I have read in detail the Report of the Committee of which she was, if I may say so, a very able and fairly strict Chairman. I think that that helped the Committee to get on with its work. I was also encouraged by what she said about rebels sometimes getting to the Front Bench, having recently been in that category myself.
  I should like to divide my speech into two sections. First, I should like 'to bring to the attention of my hon. Friend the difficulties that we have in Plymouth with regard to the employment of young people whose numbers are above the national average, and then make a general comment on the situation and one or two suggestions.
  It is said that Government has only one duty and that is to secure the social welfare of the State, and I would say that having a job is part of that social welfare. Unless one has the security of a job, everything else goes by the board. That is why I think this debate so intensely important and I am very glad that I was able to catch your eye, Sir Charles, and take part in it.
  The City of Plymouth is in rather an exceptional category. Because the majority of the people work in the dockyard—it has been a naval dockyard for over three hundred years—Plymouth offers very few other means of employment. We have had only five new factories since the war, employing just over 4,000 people. We have,
  1566
  however, something that is extremely precious. We have above the national average number of young people. In view of our ageing population, which has been already mentioned today, I think that the young people of Plymouth, if given a chance, could contribute much to the future prosperity of the country.
  I should like to give a few figures about the school-leaving age. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) mentioned the new towns. The population of Plymouth does not compete very well with the population of the new towns. In 1959, we have 2.966, which is 50 per cent. of the population of Plymouth when the national average is only 27 per cent. In 1961, we shall have 73 per cent. when the national average will be 40 per cent. In 1962, we shall have 86 per cent. when the national average is 52, and in 1967 we shall have an average of 49 per cent. when the national average will be only 19 per cent. Therefore, we have a very difficult problem.
  Over and above that, we have twice the national average of unemployment for adults. I would agree with the hon. Lady for Coventry, South when she said that young people get frustrated if they have not jobs. They become discontented and unhappy and, maybe, lazy—one cannot blame them—and they also tend to turn to mischief if they have nothing to employ them.
  We had a meeting, called by the Lord Mayor of Plymouth, and the attendance was better than in the case of several other meetings referred to by the right hon. Member for Blyth. Fifty-seven people turned up to discuss the problem. We formulated seven resolutions. I do not want to mention them all, but I hope to give the information which I have to the Parliamentary Secretary later.
  We felt, like some other hon. Members do, that we must have an increase in day release schemes for industry, but we should like to do it on a weekly or perhaps fortnightly system. We felt that we must have extended courses of education in the secondary schools, because we have a great number of young people. We should like to have provision for pre-apprenticeship courses in technical colleges. In Plymouth, we have excellent technical colleges which could be very well used for this purpose

  1567
  We want to continue to provide training for young people over school age who cannot find suitable employment. We think that this could be perfectly well done in the schools. We want to increase facilities for the training of girls under the age of 18 as nurses. There is a great wastage now in young girls having to wait until they are 18 to take a nursing course. We should also like to see more industries and expansions of the existing ones.
  At present the amount paid in unemployment and assistance benefits in Plymouth has risen considerably. In 1956–57 it was £2,410 and in 1957–58 it rose to £5,726. I feel sure that this money could be put to more use in training young people for some form of work. It is of no benefit to them at all just to receive National Assistance and still remain idle.
  It has been mentioned today that there is a great need for skilled workers. I notice that today there are nearly 200,000 unfilled places. If we are to get jobs for these young people we require the skills of trained youngsters. I think that this will become increasingly difficult with automation and new techniques in industry and, therefore, I was very interested to hear the new approach to apprenticeship mentioned by the right hon. Member for Blyth.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Coventry, South was quite correct in saying that we shall need 35,000 extra places and only one in five of the young people will be skilled, at the present rate, by 1962. I had the opportunity of visiting Germany, in a Parliamentary delegation, and I was interested in the communal workshop system run by the chambers of craft and commerce. I wonder whether we could have more co-operation with chambers of commerce to run these courses, perhaps using technical colleges. France has more than 1,000 apprenticeship centres, and firms which cannot train boys themselves contribute to the upkeep of those centres. I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary might consider that idea, also.
  Britain is a country of a great many small firms. That is particularly true of the West Country. I hope that we shall hear more about group training schemes, particularly those for up to 300 apprentices. I believe there are about 30 of those at present. Another point I put to
  1568
  the Parliamentary Secretary about firms employing 500 or more employees is that they are asked to take 3 per cent. of disabled persons. During this period I should like all firms with more than 500 employees to take 3 per cent, of young people. Those firms might be given the tax relief mentioned by several hon. Members for training apprentices. It is absolutely essential to get these apprentices trained.
  We have the particular difficulty in Plymouth that the dockyard is the main employer. More than 20,500 are employed in the dockyard and the present intake of young people, not all of whom are apprentices, is only 2,012. I suggest that my hon. Friend should make representations to the Admiralty asking that the number of apprentices in the dockyards should be increased. The Admiralty has facilities and accommodation and the technical people to teach apprentices. I am not suggesting that every one of those apprentices should be taken into the dockyard when they finish their training. That would not be practicable, but it would give them a complete knowledge for work elsewhere and in that way the problem in the West Country could be relieved.
  I refer, as the hon. Lady did, to the Report of the Select Committee on Estimates, "The Youth Employment Service And Youth Service Grants." I wish to direct attention to page 118, paragraph 25, "Suggestions made by Club Leaders". There, very important suggestions are made about further co-operation between youth employment officers and clubs. Many young people go to clubs when they first enter on their jobs and they turn to their club leader for help and advice, but it would appear that there is not sufficient co-operation. The Report says, in sub-paragraph (b):
  "The feeling among certain leaders about the importance of the youth employment officer's visits to schools taking place at an earlier date emerges strongly."
  From my experience I think that if employment officers could go earlier to schools and also visit clubs, that would be of great help to young people. The Report strongly emphasises that there is a need for a more plentiful supply of literature. It would be of great advantage if there were more literature which the young people could take home from the

  1569
  schools and clubs to discuss with their parents. The co-operation of the parents is absolutely essential.
  Reading the Report, I noticed that there was a division of authority between the Ministry of Labour and the Ministry of Education over the employment of Youth Employment Service officers. I noticed, also, that there was a considerable difference in the amount officers are paid. It appears from the Report that those employed by local education authorities have from £600 to £650 and those employd by the Ministry of Labour have from £650 to £725. I understand that that is considered satisfactory. but I do not consider that either of those rates is sufficient for the skilled people needed in this service.
  I was also interested to see on page 245 of the Report, in paragraph 13:
  "The question whether the qualifications for youth employment officers are at present too low does not arise, for the simple reason that no officially recognised qualifications exist."
  I think it extremely important that they should have officially recognised qualifications. I understand that about 800 have degrees. I do not think we shall get the right people into this service or encourage more to come into it unless it is put on a better basis. I agree with the hon. Lady that recruitment is difficult if the matter is not put on a better basis.
  I do not think anyone has mentioned that far more contact is needed with parent-teacher associations. A great many districts have such associations. If youth employment officers could meet them more often for discussions with parents it would be better for the careers of the young people concerned.
  I notice that in its evidence to the Select Committee the T.U.C. quoted what the King George's Jubilee Trust said in "Citizens of Tomorrow". The suggestion was that there should be a statutory obligation on all employers to report to the Youth Employment Service when they engage or discharge workers under 18, the proposed arrangements for training and the opportunities available for further education. We have heard a lot this evening about young people changing their jobs. I recognise that they may need to change their jobs from time to time, but I think, as is suggested in "Citizens of Tomorrow", that more attention should be paid to referring to
  1570
  the Youth Employment Service such problems for young people under 18.
  I felt that the Parliamentary Secretary perhaps took too lightly this question of the bulge, because we know only too well that people are marrying much younger these days and having children much earlier. As a result of medical research and facilities, more children are surviving. I do not think that the bulge will decline to the extent that some hon. Members have suggested today. I believe that there will be a general increase in the population, which we should welcome because we are always pointing out that we have an ageing population. We should not plan just for the years of the bulge, but for much further ahead, otherwise we shall be in the same difficulty again.
  Although I agree with much of the Carr Committee's Report, I regret that there was not a woman on the Committee. In paragraph 31 of the Report we read about the attitude towards the employment of girls, with the comment,
  "There is scope for extending the training of girls for what are generally regarded as women's occupations".
  I suggest that as girls have a similar education to boys, they can also undertake other work, apart from what are generally known as "women's occupations". They have the education and the right to jobs in competition on equal footing with boys. I hope that we shall get away from thinking only of those jobs which have been considered as good enough for women. I should mention that in paragraph 30 the report adds that
  "Girls should not be discouraged from undertaking craft apprenticeships"
  and I hope that far more attention will be paid to that paragraph than to the other paragraph which I read.
  I recognise that in some districts, possibly including the West Country, young people, and especially boys, may have to be more mobile. We have a saying that if one cannot get a job in the West Country one has to go up the line". This will be very hard on many families, because a smaller paypacket will be taken into the home. I hope that training schemes will be introduced for young people, because if they have the skills they can obtain jobs in other towns. I should also like to see schemes which aid them in going to other towns and provide a better system of lodgings or

  1571
  hostels there, because in certain areas I recognise that it may be impossible to employ the entire local population.
  I asked a headmaster whether boys who finished their education in his grammar school found difficulty in obtaining employment. He replied, "No, because they are willing to go anywhere". We do not want to export all our young people from the West Country, but we realise that a percentage will probably have to leave for other areas, but they cannot do so unless they have training in the necessary skills. I make a plea for that tonight.
  In conclusion, I want to ask a question about the Industrial Training Council. I do not think that it meets frequently enough. I believe that it meets only once every three months. I would like to know whether they can ask their committee to visit areas where unemployment is more than twice the national average and whether they would concentrate upon sending training officers to such areas as Teignmouth, where we have very few industries. This may be difficult. Would they also work out a group scheme for areas like that, in order to help us?
  I shall be grateful if the Parliamentary Secretary will answer the points that I have put to him. I hope that the debate will stimulate the Government into finding more work for the people of this age group.
  8.41 p.m.
  Mr. R. Moss: I agree with the hon. Lady the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) that the problem of the increasing number of school-leavers in the years ahead may be taken too lightly, but not after this debate. The debate was begun upon a very high level by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) and was continued on that level by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour.
  I welcome the announcement made by the Parliamentary Secretary that the unemployment figures among young people have probably been considerably reduced by now, and also his statement that the bulge makes up the deficiency. At the same time, I remind him that the bulge represents a challenge to the country which may not be met. I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary that economic
  1572
  expansion is necessary if these young people are to be provided with the necessary skills. There are many points in the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary upon which I would have liked to comment, but there is not sufficient time. I simply say how pleased I am that the grant in aid is to be made to the Industrial Training Council, to further the appointment of training officers.
  The fundamental principle of the whole problem seems to be stated in paragraph 8 of the Report of the Carr Committee, and in this one sentence:
  "We cannot have skilled workers tomorrow unless we are prepared to train them today."
  We have to consider the extent of the problems and the methods by which it can be solved. The hon. Lady referred to the problem in Her Majesty's Dockyard at Devonport. I noticed that on 4th March she got a dusty answer when she asked the Admiralty that the number of apprentices should be increased, in view of the increasing number of school-leavers, a point which she has emphasised tonight. The reply which she received was:
  "…we cannot undertake to enter more than we need."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1959; Vol. 601, c. 423.]
  That is precisely the reply which might be got from thousands of private firms when asked to train apprentices for which they do not see the need. It has been stated over and over again that firms will be asked to accept apprentices in excess of what they think their needs will be. The Post Office gave a similar answer when asked whether it would accept an increasing number of trainees. The Assistant Postmaster-General replied:
  "We have to watch that we do not overload ourselves with more apprentices than we can usefully employ."—[0FricIAL REPORT, 18th March, 1959; Vol. 602, c. 381.]
  If private industry is to take the same view, we will not solve the problem of providing the skilled workers of tomorrow.
  The number reaching the age of 15 years will be 929,000 in 1962, and will not thereafter decrease to the level of 1956. In 1962, the increase will be 52 per cent. over the 1956 level; in 1967, it will still be nearly 20 per cent. above; and, in 1971, it will be 25 per cent. higher. Moreover, the peak will be reached at different times for different

  1573
  ages. For those of 16 years of age it will be reached in 1963, when the increase will be 78 per cent.; for the 17-year-olds it will be reached in 1964, when the increase will be 106 per cent., and the number of 18-year-olds will reach their peak in 1965, when the increase will be nearly 110 per cent. All this will coincide with the ending of National Service and, presumably, with the increasing application of automatic processes in industry.
  Nor will the numbers be evenly spread geographically. I understand that Scotland will have an increase of just over 30 per cent., which is below the national average, and that the Welsh increase will also be below the national average. On the other hand, London and the South-East, the Eastern counties and the adjacent Midland counties will have increases in the numbers of school-leavers above the national average. There is, therefore, local variation in the incidence of this problem. That argues that our approach will have to be flexible and, to some extent, based on mobility as between one area and another.
  There will be differences in timing as well as in extent and distribution. In some places the peak will be reached before 1962 and, in others, after. In Birmingham, for example—where conferences are already being held to study this problem—the peak for the school-leavers of 15 comes this year, and for the total number of school-leavers of 15 and over it will be in 1962. It is these increasing numbers of school-leavers that both present a problem and provide an opportunity, and the method is that the setting up of the Industrial Training Council whose functions can be described from one sentence in paragraph 87 of the Carr Committee's Report as being
  "…to help, encourage and, if necessary, exhort."
  As to the results, there was an article in The Times of 16th February entitled "Short-Sighted," which stated that up and down the country firms were reporting queues of youngsters waiting for apprenticeships. In the Times Educational Supplement of 13th February there appeared an article entitled "Lost Boys", from which I quote as follows:
  "At the end of the year a Coventry engineering firm was reported to have interviewed 150 suitable school children, already preselected for 20 apprenticeships, The story is typical".
  1574
  That sort of thing has caused alarm in the minds of many people, who fear that we may approach this problem too slowly, and arrive at a solution too late.
  I want to impress upon the Minister of Labour that this opportunity must be taken now, or it will be missed. I have spent many years in education and several years on the technical side of education, having been associated with apprentices, craftsmen and workers who were seeking ordinary National Certificates or Higher National Certificates. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that, if the opportunity is not taken when people are young, it becomes infinitely more difficult later on in life to do that which could have been done easily in earlier years and almost impossible to remedy the mistakes made then. That is why this opportunity must be taken now. It will not present itself again. It is in the national interest. It is a question of national interest and survival that these skilled workers should be available in the years to come.
  The chairman of the Industrial Training Council seems to be optimistc about what the outcome will be. In another place, on 11th March, he said that employers, with the support of the trade unions, were ready to train more workers than they really needed and that this principle had been accepted by the British Employers' Confederation.
  On 5th November, 1958, the chairman made his point of view perfectly clear. He said that if we do not take the advantage which this increasing number of school leavers will give us
  "we are going to build up a further discontented heap of young people with no skills, a drug on the market."
  It was the view of the chairman of the Industrial Training Council that industry would need to take 50 per cent. more recruits than they have been taking until now. He said:
  "It is a simple job; it is not for all time, only for a short period; and provided there is the will it is a perfectly possible job."— [OFFICIAL. REPORT, House of Lords, 5th November, 1958; Vol. 212, c. 246.]
  I come from the Midlands. On my left hand, so to speak, is the great City of Coventry, which is now trying to seize a part of my constituency, which I hope to prevent. On my right hand, is the great City of Birmingham, which is trying to do the same at the other end, which I also hope to prevent. I live in a part

  1575
  of the country which is acquainted with the problems of apprenticeship and the necessity of having in firms skilled workers who are loyal to their firms and capable of producing goods of high quality for sale on the home market and for export, and especially to the North American dollar market.
  We have also in the Midlands many small firms and it has been extremely difficult to get small firms to play their part in training. This is the best way to tackle the problem. I do not think that the large firms will present much of a problem, but the smaller firms will. In Technical Education, for February, 1959, Sir Willis Jackson is stated to be of the opinion that the best line of approach is for small firms which never took on apprentices before to take them on now. He advocates group training schemes and suggests that technical colleges should be provided for full-time apprenticeship courses or that local authorities should set up special apprenticeship training centres.
  I have raised this matter in the House more than once. I have never suggested that the setting up of apprenticeship training centres by local authorities is a method to be applied uniformly throughout the country, but I believe that we ought not to look at the problem as though it were uniform everywhere. There are local variations, and we must be prepared to apply different remedies in different localities as circumstances permit.
  I regret exceedingly that I cannot go any further tonight. I have been told that it will be necessary for me to sit down soon. I shall, therefore, run over briefly one or two ideas about which I intended to speak.
  The Government should consider how they can help the setting up of group apprenticeship schemes, joint training centres and pre-apprenticeship courses, encouraging block release where it is appropriate for further education. The Government ought to consider how they can strengthen the Youth Employment Service, if only because apprenticeships are becoming more selective. The Central Youth Employment Executive is already sending out instructions that youth employment officers should tell
  1576
  young people that their qualifications will need to be higher if they are to be accepted for apprenticeships.
  I had intended to say something about the Industrial Training Council itself. In view of the lack of time, I shall content myself by saying how glad I am that a grant in aid is being made to it. The Government should seriously consider whether it is possible to give financial assistance to firms to encourage them, if they have taken on too few or have taken on none at all, to take on apprentices. There is no time to be lost.
  As The Times said on 24th June last year:
  "Unassisted, the small firms will not respond. Some of them may not even hear the call."
  This is a national problem, a problem of national survival, and the Government will have the support of Members on both sides for anything they can do to provide the skilled workers who will sustain the economy of a society increasingly based upon scientific techniques.
  8.58 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Lee: During the debate, one hon. Member at least mentioned the sort of atmosphere that we should attempt to create if we are to put boys into the best type of conditions in which to serve their apprenticeships. My mind went back to the first day when I began to serve my apprenticeship as a boy of 14. My first job was to go round and collect the brew cans. I went to one old fitter who looked at me and said, "You are not going to stay at this game, are you, sonny?". I said that I certainly should; I wanted to learn the trade. He said, "Trade? This is a ruddy disease, not a trade". An atmosphere can be created in different ways. That was a few years ago, but it has always remained in my mind as an indication of something which we should avoid when initiating youngsters into the mysteries of apprenticeship.
  The Parliamentary Secretary has given us some extremely important figures today. He pointed out that the numbers entering apprenticeships in 1957 were 95,184, whereas in 1958 they were 93,212. In other words, in a year in which the bulge was beginning to show in increased numbers of school-leavers, the numbers taking apprenticeship courses were, in fact, being reduced. To me,

  1577
  that is a most alarming situation. I knew some of the figures for the engineering industry for 1957. I knew that in that respect the number of apprentices going into the engineering, shipbuilding, electrical goods and vehicles industries were falling, and the proportion by which they are falling seems to be about the same as the fall which the hon. Gentleman announced in the general scheme of apprenticeships today.
  Therefore, I very much agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mr. Moss) was saying—that this is an issue upon which so much depends. When we see that happen in the year 1958, when the effects of the increased numbers of school-leavers were being seen, we realise that all that has been done up to now has resulted in a drop in the number of boys who are going into apprenticeships. That is the background against which this debate takes place.
  I put it to the Government that merely to give us suggestions that the employers ought to do this or that in such conditions is not good enough. We believe that there has been ample time for employers of good will who intended to do something about this problem to have done so, and that so far they have shown a singular lack of initiative in taking the necessary steps to meet this great crisis.
  The hon. Gentleman made an announcement that the Government intend to make a grant—a "once-for-all" grant, I think he described it—of £75,000 for a limited number of years so that we may have more and better training development officers. There are a number of points about that which, necessarily, he could not give us today, but on which one would like more details, and if the Parliamentary Secretary could give us a more detailed statement about it it would be very welcome. But the offer was made conditional on industry itself contributing a further £75,000 towards it, from which I take it that if those industries which use skilled labour fail to find a further £75,000 the Government contribution will be withheld.
  I asked the hon. Gentleman how the Government were to try to ensure that the whole of the firms which use skilled labour will make some contribution to it. I pointed out that there are a number
  1578
  of firms which can always be relied upon to do a first-class job of work in this matter, but that there are also a large number of black sheep who will never do anything. It is quite unfair to expect the willing horse to do all the work, while shirkers refuse to meet their responsibilities.
  The £75,000 is merely a token payment. When we look at the great problems now facing us in these industries, we realise that £75,000 over a period of years cannot possibly of itself make much difference to the quality of training. We, for our part, are extremely disappointed in that. We had hoped that the Government would be able to make a more imaginative approach to the problem and especially to make it conditional upon some parts of the industry paying the same sort of figure as the Government are paying.
  We are extremely disappointed that that is the only contribution which the Government intend to make to this problem. Added to what the Parliamentary Secretary has said about the decline in numbers taking out apprenticeships, we feel that the gravity of the situation is such that it is necessary for my right hon. and hon. Friends to divide the Committee on this issue at the end of the debate.
  There is a grave lack of statistics in connection with the problem. This is one of the factors which limit us in our ability to get down to a proper analysis of the matter. We know, however, that we are now in the first phase of the bulge coming from the schools and that the numbers of school leavers will increase by 316,000 between 1956 and 1962.
  In reviewing the debate, there are a number of points upon which the Committee has been in agreement. We agree, for example, that the ratio of school-leavers taking out apprenticeships is far too small. This has been stressed by hon. Members opposite just as it has been stressed from this side of the Committee. Between now and 1962, the number of 15-year-olds will rise from 712,000 to 929,000. We agree that the existing facilities for apprenticeship training are inadequate in quantity and, in many cases, in quality too, and that there is urgent need for a large increase in the numbers of young scientists and technologists, many of whom must come from the ranks of the apprentices.

  1579
  Many references have been made to the Carr Committee's Report, on page 3 of which it is stated:
  "We realise that there are some areas in which the incidence of the 'bulge' may create employment problems, and we understand that this is a matter to which the Ministry of Labour is at present giving attention."
  The Committee reported in December, 1957. We would like to know the result of the attention that the Ministry of Labour has been giving to the problem since December, 1957. We have heard the figures which the Parliamentary Secretary has given today. If they are the result of the special attention which the Ministry has been paying to the problem, they are extremely disappointing to us all.
  In these matters, one often tends to ignore the feelings of the young people themselves. We tend to become academic in our discussion of these matters. To me, therefore, it was a great pleasure when Mr. Carron invited me, a few weeks ago, to go along to listen to the deliberations of the A.E.U. National Youth Committee at Eastbourne. I should like to give to hon. Members some of my reflections from what I heard on that occasion.
  One boy, for example, informed that Committee that when he first started his tuition it cost him four weeks' wages to buy the requisite materials. He also knew of apprentices who had given up studying for their Higher National Certificate because they simply could not afford to carry on with their studies. Another boy told us that as a Higher National student himself, his technical equipment cost him £8 per year and that in his first year alone, while taking home 30s. a week, he had to pay out £10 for drawing instruments and initial equipment. These are clear cases where employers should assist apprentices in purchasing their equipment. After all, the employers will benefit greatly from the skill of these boys and it is wrong that so many of them should refuse to assist in the purchase of equipment.
  On the question of redundancy, the A.E.U. Youth Committee itself gave us many instances of apprentices being made redundant at 18 and 19 years of age. A case from Manchester in which a number of apprentices were paid off within a few months of completing their apprenticeship was quoted. When an appren-
  1580
  tice signs his indentures, he signs for five years. Although he is bound himself for those five years, his employer can dismiss him at any time during those five years, despite the fact that he is learning his trade. I should have thought that there is obvious unfairness when a youth can be dismissed under those conditions. When that kind of thing happens, surely the Ministry itself could offer youths two days a week at technical college, otherwise the skill which they have learned will be wasted.
  To quote a resolution of that Youth Committee:
  "This Annual Youth Conference is gravely disturbed by the non-application by most employers of the agreed method of training of apprentices. We request Executive Council to press the Employers' Confederation to have the term of the Recruitment and Training of Juveniles Agreement applied by their members' firms to ensure a general improvement in apprenticeship training standards."
  The impression is often given that the vast majority of firms are meeting their obligations, but it is somewhat alarming to hear boys working under these conditions telling us through their resolution what the position really is.
  As I have said, I know that the education and training facilities of many large firms are a credit both to themselves and to the nation, but it is very little encouragement to them if other firms not only do not train their own people, but entice employees away from firms which have trained them at a time when they can be useful. That is private enterprise gone completely mad.
  A further consideration in the matter of the ability of firms to train apprentices is that during the post-war period the wages of apprentices have risen at a far greater pace than the wages of qualified workers. It is, therefore, now a dearer proposition to employ apprentices than it was in the days when they received a mere pittance. There is also the cost to the employer of the apprentice attending technical college one day per week.
  I appreciate that these are some of the reasons why certain small firms refuse to train apprentices, but I believe that their attitude in refusing to join the joint apprenticeship schemes which are open to all firms, whether their financial circumstances are good or bad, is deplorable. This is the background against which the Government still argue that industry

  1581
  must be responsible for training, while they themselves seek no powers to force firms to play their part in producing the necessary apprentices.
  Mention has been made from both sides of the Committee of a more flexible approach from the trade unions in the starting age of apprentices. I agree that this is a most important point. I believe that there is scope for more flexibility. Discussions are now taking place within the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions to that effect.
  I must point out one thing which has caused hesitancy in this respect. In days not long ago, one can remember young married men of 24 and 25 years of age, sometimes with two or three children, who were employed on apprentice rates. That kind of thing was bringing actual poverty of a very extreme type indeed, and that is one reason why the unions are hesitant now in this respect. There is scope here for employers and unions agreeing to the need for more flexibility to try to meet the question of the payment of young men when they are over 21 years of age, who at that stage may not actually have completed their apprenticeships.
  Then there is the position of the dilutees. Many thousands of people came into industry as dilutees and still are engaged in skilled work. The agreement permits the skilled rate to be paid to dilutees after six months, whereas an apprentice over 21 can get only the apprentice rate. Here is an obvious anomaly which needs ironing out.
  I believe that the most important recommendation of the Carr Committee, which has been discussed widely today, was that in paragraph 18 on page 6:
  "We consider that as a general principle for the future, the existing division of responsibility between Government and industry for the education and training of apprentices should be maintained. The efforts of the Government should be directed to the expansion and improvement of the facilities for technical education, while the responsibility for the industrial training of apprentices should rest firmly with industry."
  I believe that it is upon that central point of our approach to this matter that there lies the main difference between the two sides of the Committee. Indeed, while saying what I have just read out, the Carr Committee goes on to say:
  "Existing facilities for apprenticeship training are inadequate in quantity and, in some cases, in quality as well."
  1582
  We on this side hold that the number of apprentices and the quality of the training of those apprentices is the nation's business, not merely the business of the employers themselves, and our accusation is that the Government refuse to accept that responsibility as such. Why they should be that way I do not understand. They know, as I know, that even a good employer with excellent educational schemes caters only for his own employees, while the nation must concern itself with the total of school leavers and not the total which happens to be in employment at a given moment. There is a very fundamental difference indeed.
  Many of those who were at an age to start apprenticeship while the Government were prohibiting industrial expansion are now too old to start their apprenticeship, and, therefore, in many cases it is not a question merely of apprenticeship being deferred but a question of their chances of apprenticeship having gone for ever.
  There is so much legislation which gives the Government responsibility for the training of many types of people that it really is to us a remarkable thing that they refuse to go a little further and accept the responsibilities which we suggest they should now accept for this kind of training. I do not want to enumerate all the different types of such responsibilities they have, but I deplore the fact that apprenticeship, one of the most vital aspects of general education, is not accepted by them.
  When we think of it, does a young lawyer, a doctor, an economist, a person in that kind of profession, face the danger that he may not have the opportunity of further learning his profession because his employer can no longer employ him at a profit?
  As someone has said already, private employers in the main are in business to make profits, not to conduct apprenticeships. In the main, they make the number of their apprentices fit their requirement to make profits, which is the main point of their being in business at all. If I may pause to say a word of commendation to the nationalised industries, I would say that their apprenticeship schemes which 1 have seen and studied are models in the progressive way in which they assist their young people in this respect.

  1583
  We have heard the figures for 1958, which was a year in which we had the worst employment record since the war. Unemployment increased and vacancies contracted at a greater pace as the year went on. I do not suppose for an instant that when the Cabinet was making its decision on the contraction of industry it gave even a thought to its effect on school-leavers. The number of boys under 18 years of age unemployed in February of this year was 21,243. The number now is 22,380, compared with 9,238 in February, 1957, and we know that a similar decline has taken place among the numbers who have gone into apprenticeships. It is not unfair to argue, therefore, that the Government were paying lip-service to the need for increased apprenticeship while their economic policies frustrated those who wished to follow their advice.
  There is irony in the fact that the Government chose to restrict the expansion of industry just when the bulge was reaching school-leaving age. The logical thing to have done would have been to provide Government facilities as industrial training declined. The Government failed to do that and, therefore, we have this smaller ratio of apprentices today when, by common consent, we need a greater ratio.
  When the Select Committee on Estimates considered the Youth Employment Service, two years ago, some very remarkable evidence was put before it. I should like to quote one or two questions and answers. My hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Cledwyn Hughes) asked Dr. W. P. Alexander, Secretary of the Association of Education Committees, the following question:
  "It was said that the quality of the officers is the determining factor in the success of the service. Could I ask you whether you find that you are able to recruit satisfactory youth employment officers?"
  The answer was:
  "I should say the answer is 'No', quite definitely, but it would obviously be absurd to think that that means that there are no excellent officers. However, in general, the present standards of salary and conditions of service, and the present training of the officers recruited, would not, in my opinion, be adequate to the task they are trying to undertake."
  My hon. Friend then asked:
  "Could you tell the Committee (because this is of vital importance) the reasons for the poor standard of the youth employment
  1584
  officers; what, in your opinion, should be done in order to raise the standard?"
  The answer was:
  "I think the answer in its simplest form is the standard of the conditions of service. The average salary of all the youth employment officers of this country is very much less than assistant teachers; in other words, anybody who has training beyond the school stage can find another career which offers not merely higher immediate salary but greater opportunity."
  How, in heaven's name, can we believe that we can ever secure a proper training service in those conditions?
  We all agree on the need to increase vastly the ratio of skilled people. The logical outcome if failure to do this continues will be in a few years' time heavy unemployment among unskilled workers, accompanied by a big list of vacancies for non-existent skilled workers. We all know that a certain way of ensuring unemployment among the unskilled is to fail to train an adequate number of skilled workers for industry. It would be interesting to know how many apprentices have been lost to the nation for ever as the result of the economic policies pursued in the last few years.
  The Carr Report states that employers should be asked to ascertain their apprentice requirements and make preparations for training, but if employers do not know whether the Government will be encouraging or frustrating industrial expansion how can they possibly know their requirements in the years ahead? Indeed, the Carr Report points out that many industries do not know how many apprentices or craftsmen they have in their employment even now. The Carr committee states:
  "In the course of our inquiries we asked each industry to say how many craftsmen and apprentices it had. Few industries were able to answer this question with any precision, and many were unable to supply any sort of answer at all."
  I have here a Press hand-out from the British Employers' Confederation which, as I understand, is very sceptical as to whether it can do the things which the Industrial Training Council is trying to Committee states:
  "In the light of preliminary assessments carried out by the industries the Confederation takes the view that the absorption of potential trainees cannot be taken for granted. It can only be achieved if employers arrange their training budget for the next few years on the basis of wide and continuing expansion."
  Tory policy does not permit that. We know that at one period they must contract in order to boom at a later period.

  1585
  Therefore, I suggest that under the economic ideas of the present Government it is not possible for any employer to know that he can budget on the basis of wide and continuing expansion.
  Somebody said that the Carr Report was the first effort in these things. I have criticised the recommendation about the setting up of a committee which has no real authority. Six Willis Jackson has been quoted by my hon. Friend, and I was reading the speech he made the other day entitled, "The Partnership between Industry and Education" which he made to the British Association in August of last year. He said:
  "Mr. Robert Carr went no further than to envisage a purely advisory National Apprenticeship Council intended to 'keep representative organisations of employers and workers at national level informed of progress' and to 'collect and disseminate information …'."
  Sir Willis Jackson goes on to point to a remarkable report agreed in 1944, fifteen years ago, between the engineering employers, the A.E.U., the major engineering institutions, and the Regional Advisory Council for Technical and other forms of Further Education, which proposed the appointment of
  "…a National Engineering Apprentice Council as a central directing body, and of associated regional councils, each to be composed of representatives of organised employers, trade unions, professional institutions, education authorities and the interested Government Departments, and it defined the responsibilities of the regional councils for the organisation and administration of training schemes in their respective areas.…"
  One recommendation made in the report was:
  "to advise upon the establishment, equipment, staffing and maintenance of all Apprentice Training Centres (for the initial period of training) to meet the needs of the region."
  That is what I would term an enlightened report of fifteen years ago, and it was sheer coincidence that I was the A.E.U. representative on it.
  The debate today, though a quiet and serious one, has revealed a wide difference on the central issue to which I have referred. I suggest that in this scientific age we have the great task of ensuring that our industries do not wither away for lack of skilled labour. We have to ensure that there is a good balance between science and the humanities. I believe that that is a great and essential task which only the House of Commons
  1586
  can perform. Perhaps the objective we are searching for might be described as "automation without awe". I believe that it is because the Government refuse to see the need for this that these policies are not sufficient to meet the requirements of the nation. Because the Government are not seized of the great responsibilities which rest with them during the period of the bulge, and are not capable of doing what is required, we shall divide the Committee tonight.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Sir Edward Boyle): I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Lee) on the very agreeable manner in which he has endeavoured to justify the division at the end of this debate. I have listened to a good many debates over the past nine years and I have seldom heard one in which the wide difference referred to by the hon. Member was less evident—except for one or two moments between twenty minutes past nine and twenty-five minutes past nine this evening.
  I will gladly take up seriously the point made by the hon. Member for Newton who referred to the Carr Committee as though it were a Government Committee. Do not let us forget that the Can committee was industry's own Committee; it reported to the National Joint Advisory Council and its report was fully approved by the Council. When the hon. Gentleman talks about the Government playing a direct part in the training of apprentices, as my hon. Friend said we shall consider carefully the very moderate statement of this view by the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) earlier in the debate. But do not let us forget that on this issue the hon. Member for Newton is the only one who is in step. There is no chance whatever of convincing either side of industry at the present time that the existing system has failed and cannot meet the needs of the future. So here, the division is not between the two sides of the Committee, but between the hon. Member for Newton, on the one hand, and the Government and the British Employer's Confederation and the T.U.C. on the other. We should remember that in arriving at a fair view of this issue.
  We started the debate with a speech from the right hon. Member for Blyth

  1587
  which, I think, greatly impressed all who were fortunate enough to hear it. I should like at once to take up one point made by the right hon. Gentleman which I consider of the highest possible importance. He rightly said that we shall not earn our living in a competitive world, or play a worthy part in world affairs, unless we have an ample supply of skilled manpower all along the line. It is not enough to have top-class scientists and technologists. We have to back them up with efficient and first-class technicians and craftsmen. It is in that spirit—whatever our division in the Lobbies may be—that tonight the Committee is united in the importance of the issue.
  I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that, for this reason, we must have a first-class system of education which embraces everyone. For this reason, we now have a White Paper on the schools based on the theme that everyone, and not just a selected few, should have a full secondary education in accordance with his ability and aptitude, There cannot be a more important point than this one which was made by the right hon. Gentleman.
  Hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have asked a number of questions, and I shall endeavour to answer some of them. I should like to take up two of the points put to the Government by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr), whom we were glad to hear speaking so constructively in this debate. My hon. Friend asked about the Letchworth Staff Training College. This was established originally for the training of Ministry of Labour and National Service instructors, but it has also trained a number of instructors for firms in industry. Last year the industrial staff was increased in order to help to cope with the growing volume of work.
  The hon. Member asked about the possibility of greater help for group apprenticeship schemes. I can assure him that the training development officers which the Government grant-in-aid is designed to encourage will be available to help develop group schemes where these are required. The right hon. Member for Blyth and other hon. Members have talked about the future of the Industrial Training Council. Many other hon. Members suggested that this should
  1588
  be, as it were, only the first step. I should like to remind the Committee that the fact that this Industrial Council will now be administering this grant-in-aid of £75,000, and the equivalent sum which industry must raise to match this grant-in-aid must of itself have a considerable influence on the amount of work the Industrial Training Council does, and on the atmosphere in which it does that work. So there is no question of the Industrial Training Council standing still, and, as I say, its future must be determined by this added responsibility which is now placed upon it.
  I think it would be helpful this evening if I said a few words about the Government's broad policy with regard to apprentices. It is now a well-established tradition in British industry that apprentices, whether they are craft apprentices, technical apprentices or student apprentices, should have both training and education, and that whereas the training is the responsibility of the employer the education is provided by the local education authorities and the technical colleges. It is this principle which was recently emphasised in the Carr Committee's Report, and it is the accepted policy of the Government.
  I know perfectly well that the demarcation between training and education can never be absolutely precise, but broadly speaking education means in this context the general principles underlying calculations, science or design, whereas training is primarily concerned with the practical application of these principles to those skills associated with a particular occupation. Naturally, the balance between education and training will vary according to the grasp of fundamental scientific principles that are required for a particular job. For instance, as many hon. Members in this Committee will know, a craft apprentice spends four-fifths of his time in industry and only one-fifth in a technical college, whereas a student apprentice spends two-fifths of the time in industry and three-fifths in college.
  It is in accordance with this general policy that most apprenticeship schemes make provision for apprentices to attend part-time at a technical college, usually for one day a week up to the ages of 16 and 18 or 16 and 21, though, of course, the practice varies a good deal

  1589
  according to the policy of the firm and the abilities of the students. Usually the time spent at the technical college is a preparation for a recognised qualification, either a National Certificate, or the appropriate Craft Certificate of the City and Guilds of London Institute.
  In this connection, I agree with a point made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) who made such an interesting speech. I gathered a good many of his points, but I could not get all of them because it was like the game of catching fish on a seaside pier. But I got his point that we are in danger of having too many and too great a variety of qualifications—it is certainly a danger we should guard against.
  The provision of courses for students released by their employers in this way is a major function of the technical colleges, and the majority of the students between the ages of 15 and 18 are, in fact, apprentices or industrial trainees of one kind or another. As the Committee will recall, one of the two primary objectives laid down in the 1956 White Paper on Technical Education was to enable the figure of 355,000 students released in the year 1954–55 to be doubled within the period covered by the investment programme of £70 million announced in the White Paper. If we are to reach this target figure, this means that we must achieve an average increase in the number of part-time day release students of about 40,000 a year.
  In the years immediately following 1955, we made good progress towards this target. By 1957, the number of part-time day release students had risen to 417,000, which represented an average annual increase of just over 30,000 a year since 1955. This was certainly encouraging, particularly as at that time the relevant age groups had hardly increased at all. In 1958, there came a setback when the numbers, though still increasing, went up by only 17,000. I know that this setback will be disappointing to the Committee, and certainly none of us on either side of the Committee has any ground for complacency, but at the same time I think that we should view these figures in their true perspective, because, after all, there never has been a single period in our national history when technical education as a whole has made a more rapid advance. In the first place, even though
  1590
  the figures I have just quoted for 1958 are disappointing, we should not forget that we have achieved a tenfold increase in day releases compared with the years before the war. Secondly, the work at advanced level in technical colleges has been progressing very well indeed.
  In the last academic year, 1957–58, the output from advanced courses in technical colleges had risen from 9,500 in 1955 to over 11,000. Sandwich courses have increased in number from about 100, when the White Paper was published, to over 250 this session, and the number of students enrolled annually has grown from about 2,300 to over 8,000. There are now sixty-six courses for the Diploma in Technology in progress at twenty colleges compared with forty-one at eleven colleges a year ago, and more than 2,500 students are taking these courses. Finally, the eight colleges of advanced technology are all developing strongly with a total present enrolment of nearly 7,000 full-time and sandwich students.
  My third reason for not thinking that we should be too gloomy at the setback in part-time day release during 1958 is that the technical colleges themselves are doing much to prepare for a further expansion in their numbers by diversifying their courses and providing new types of courses for the ordinary craft apprentices and technicians. I can assure the Committee that the technical colleges are both ready and eager to play their full part at the craftsman and technician level as well as in the field of advanced technical education. The large building programmes we have announced show clearly that it is the firm policy of the Government that the colleges shall have the means to do the job.
  As the Committee knows, the whole capital investment programme of £70 million announced in the 1956 White Paper has by now been fully authorised in the form of individual building projects, and in 1958 the total value of projects started and completed was, respectively, £15 million and about £10 million as compared with only just over £5 million under each head before 1956. Further, my right hon. Friend has recently announced that this rate of building starts will be maintained for a further period of three years after the end of the five-year period 1956–61. This new £45 million programme for 1961–64 will

  1591
  not only enable the output of advanced courses to be still further increased to about 17,000, but will also enable more and better provision to be made for day release students.
  Furthermore, there will be better facilities in the technical colleges not only for teaching but for social and recreational activities. It is the policy of the Government to enable the technical colleges, on the one hand, to provide their share of the increased output of scientists and technologists required in the late 1960s and, on the other hand, to make adequate educational provision to match the training opportunities which it is industry's task to provide for the growing number of young people who will become available for employment.
  Of course, this expansion in the technical colleges will require a constantly increasing supply of well qualified teachers. I wish to say a word or two about that. Roughly speaking, the colleges need about 1,400 extra full-time teachers a year to meet their estimated requirements. I am glad to be able to tell the Committee that in recent years the total teaching force has been increasing by a greater amount each year. In 1958, it increased by 1,500 to reach the record total of 13,500. Of course, we need still more, and especially men with first-rate qualifications and experience. I can assure the Committee that my right hon. Friend has urged local education authorities to consider very seriously the recommendations made in the Willis Jackson Report. Training facilities for those engaged in industry and commerce who wish to become technical teachers are being expanded and considerably larger training grants have been made available.
  I come to a point of great importance to which many hon. Members have referred—the need for very close co-operation between industry and the technical colleges. I think that we all agree that the technical college has three main functions and three main responsibilities towards its students. First, it should aim to provide as wide a range of courses as its resources will allow. Secondly, it should see that each student takes the course which is most fitting, bearing in mind both the ability of the student and the job at which he is aiming. Thirdly, it should watch over the students and assist their progress and welfare.
  1592
  Technical colleges, however, cannot do their best without the active co-operation of industry, and in this context 1 should like especially to emphasise the word "active", because the release of many more girls and boys is certainly necessary if the potential skills of apprentices are to be fully developed and if the much greater number of scientists and technologists now emerging from the universities and technical colleges are to be adequately supported at the technician and craftsman level. Here we come back to the point at which I began. If we are to earn our living in world markets we need a regular and large flow of skilled manpower right the way down the line.
  There is, of course, more to it than this. The truth is that we want much more intimate daily contact between individual firms and their local technical colleges, more active participation by industry on the governing bodies and advisory committees of the colleges and a greater interchange of staff. At the apprenticeship level, the training and the education should be complementary and should keep in step with one another, while a greater measure of guidance and advice to the apprentices, both in the college and in the factory, is necessary if we are to reduce that wastage from courses which must cause us all concern.
  This can be achieved only by close and regular contact between the staff at the technical college and the training officers and apprentice supervisors in the factory. There are some very good examples of this co-operation and co-ordination, but a great deal more is needed. I must say frankly that, quite apart from the question of the number of apprentices taken on by industry—and we all agree that the numbers are disappointing; there is no dispute between us about that and certainly no complacency on this side of the Committee—there is also the question, to which many hon. Members have referred, of the quality of apprentices. When going round the country and visiting technical colleges, I have on many occasions encountered the criticism that the training arrangements made by industry are often inadequate. This applies especially, though not exclusively, in the smaller firms.
  Sometimes, of course, this inadequacy arises from the size or the nature of the firm, which has not within its control the

  1593
  means to provide the range of training and experience which is required, a point with which the right hon. Member for Blyth dealt fully and fairly in his speech, but I must also say that this inadequacy sometimes arises from a lack of sufficient interest or understanding of what is required. I think that it is better that we should have these matters out frankly in the Committee.
  The training may too often consist of letting the apprentice pick up knowledge and skills casually in the course of his daily work. Too often there is no apprentice supervisor or even a specially skilled man charged with the responsibility of seeing that the apprentice is properly instructed or purposely employed. I am not saying that this happens very often. I am saying that it ought never to happen. It ought never to happen that an apprentice has to act simply as an errand boy or a maker of tea during his first year, which is the most impressionable time in the whole of his industrial life, when he is making the difficult transition from sheltered school discipline and when his industrial attitudes are being formed.
  Again, even when day release is granted, there are some firms which do not seem to pay enough attention to what the apprentice does in the technical college. I am sure that all of us know from our personal experience in some context or another just how deadening what I call this negative and uncooperative attitude can be. It can be extremely frustrating to the colleges, and especially to those colleges which are genuinely trying to do a good job. It is exactly for this reason that I have stressed tonight the enormous importance of close co-operation between college and firm.
  Of course, it is true that not all the technical colleges are good. Not all have proper selection methods and pay all that attention to the needs of students which is desirable. In all these cases, the right remedies are closer collaboration, frequent meetings, interchange of reports and views, and correlation of education in the college and instruction in the apprentice-training school.
  In opening the debate, the right hon. Gentleman drew attention to the fact that some of the large firms—we know them well—have apprenticeship arrangements
  1594
  which work extremely well. Any of us who have had the privilege of seeing what is done by firms like Metropolitan Vickers and I.C.I. know just exactly how good first-class training of this kind can be. The Government believe that all these good things are well within the power of the large and medium-sized firm. Indeed, some of them have an excellent record. For the small firm, there may well be real difficulties, because many of them simply have not the facilities to provide the range of training which is necessary.
  The right hon. Member for Blyth talked about the difficulties of the small firm. But we shall have a great many small firms for a very long time. We must approach this situation in a sympathetic spirit, make the best of the situation and do our best to help these firms. The solution for them may be group apprenticeship schemes, which are already seen in some areas in the engineering industry. Again, the solution may be a joint training centre, such as is already provided for foundry craftsmen.
  Alternatively it may be possible in some cases for firms to arrange with the local technical college to undertake, on their behalf, the preliminary training which, in the larger firm, is done in the works training school. Again, where the technical college has the necessary accommodation and staff, it has sometimes been possible to arrange for the apprentices to attend the college for the whole of the first year of their apprenticeship. The general point I want to emphasise is that the Government are very much alive to the difficulties of the small firm, but I believe that in many cases those difficulties can be surmounted, provided that there is collaboration, and provided that the small firms make it plain just what sort of training their apprentices really need.
  Quite a number of hon. Members have very rightly referred in this debate to the important part that the trade unions have to play. The pattern of British apprenticeship has developed through the years, and will continue to develop, in response to our industrial needs and to changes such as the longer school life, the growth of sixth forms and the development of new courses in the secondary modern schools. The unions can do a great deal to help on the

  1595
  changes in the framework of apprenticeship which will result. They can, by their help and guidance, do much to increase and improve industrial training and to foster the right relationship with the technical colleges.
  I was glad that the right hon. Member for Blyth referred to the absurdity of keeping on with the arrangement that every boy should necessarily do five years before becoming a skilled craftsman. He also made the important point that it is quite wrong to restrict entry to boys of school-leaving age. The position as regards school leaving today is rapidly evolving. Since the war, we have doubled the size of sixth forms in our schools, and there are no less than 40,000 scholars in the modern schools who are staying on beyond the school-leaving age. Whether a child leaves at 15 or stays on may depend upon the accident of what educational facilities are available in the area. To say that entry should be restricted to boys of school-leaving age cannot make sense in the sort of educational conditions that we have today. In my view, it is a thoroughly good thing that this point should have been aired in the debate.
  Finally—because, though we are not seriously divided in argument, we shall be divided in the Division Lobby and I have, therefore, to sit down in two minutes from now—I should like to take up the reference made by the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) to the vital importance of the period of transition from school life to working life.
  In this country, we have always set our face against the idea of the purely vocational school education, and I am quite sure that we have been right. It has always been our belief that the best possible general education is the best start in life, whatever kind of job we are afterwards intending to do. As I say, today more and more children are staying on longer at school because they are able to gain from the wide variety of courses that many secondary schools of all kinds are starting to offer; but I think all will agree that education and training should not end with school.
  I was very glad to hear the hon. Member for Edmonton and my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham both emphasis-
  1596
  ing the need for some kind of training to be as widespread as possible in our national life. The hon. Member for Edmonton referred, for example, to training for porters with British Railways, or for those who render some other kinds of essential services, without which our national life simply could not go on. My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham referred to the fact that even a few days of induction training may be of great value to many people in many jobs—
  Mr. Collick: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I understood that this debate was to be on youth employment problems. On Merseyside, we have 2,000 unemployed youths, and I would be very interested if we could get back to the practical aspect, which is what we can tell those 2,000 unemployed youths, and what the Government's policy is.
  Sir E. Boyle: I can tell the hon. Member two things about that. First, I understood that the Opposition wished to debate today the problems of youth employment, with special relationship to apprenticeship schemes, and with special relationship to what happens to young people in industry after leaving school. That is a matter within the direct province of the Department for which I share some responsibility, and it was for that reason that I have devoted the greater part of my speech to that aspect—I think. not unreasonably.
  However, if the hon. Gentleman wishes to ask about the Merseyside, I will tell him that we have done our best to get the figures of school leavers there but that it simply has not been possible to get them in the time available. Therefore, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour will communicate both with the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Collick) and with the hon. Lady the Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mrs. Braddock), who asked about Liverpool, as soon as possible.
  What I can do is to repeat what I consider to be the very heartening statistic that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary gave earlier, when he pointed out that of the 12,785 school leavers who were out of work on 13th April approximately half have got jobs

  1597
  within a fortnight. As I say, that is a heartening statistic, and I gladly repeat it.
  This has been a valuable debate, as it has shown that all of us, in whatever part of the Committee we may sit, attach the very highest importance to the development of economic opportunity. It is on that point that we in this Committee arc indeed united, and it is on that basis
  that the Government will continue their work in the future.
  Mr. Robens: I beg to move, That Item Class VI, Vote 9 (Ministry of Labour and National Service), be reduced by £5.
  Question put:—
  The Committee divided: Ayes 146, Noes 195.

  Division No. 97.]

  AYES

  [9.59 p.m.

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Holman, P.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Albu, A. H.

  Holmes, Horace

  Paton, John

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Peart, T. F.

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Pentland, N.

  Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayshire)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Blackburn, F.

  Hunter, A. E.

  Prentice, R. E.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Bowles, F. G.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Probert, A. R.

  Boyd, T. C.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Janner, B.

  Rankln, John

  Brockway, A. F.

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Reeves, J.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (Holbn & St. Pnos. S.)

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Carmichael, J.

  Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

  Ross, William

  Chapman, W. D.

  Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, s.)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Collick, P. H. (Blrkenhead)

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Lawson, G. M.

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Deer, G.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Stonehouse, John

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Stones, W. (Consett)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Lewis, Arthur

  Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  MoCann, J.

  Thompson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Timmons, J.

  Fitch, A. E. (Wigan)

  MacDermot, Niall

  Tomney, F.

  Fletcher, Eric

  Mcinnes, J.

  Viant, S. P.

  Forman, J, C.

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Warbey, W. N.

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  MoLeavy, Frank

  Weitzman, D.

  Gaitskeli, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Gibson, C. W.

  Mahon, Simon

  White, Henry (Derybshire, N.E.)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Malialieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Willey, Frederick

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

  Grey, C. F.

  Messer, Sir F.

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Lianelly)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

  Hale, Leslie

  Moody, A. S.

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Hannan, W.

  Orbach, M.

  Woof, R. E.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Padley, W. E.

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Healey, Denis

  Paget, R. T.

  Zilllacus, K.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  Paling, Rt. Hn. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Hilton A. V.

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons

  Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

  Parker, J.

  NOES

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Beamish, Col. Tufton

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Arbuthnot, John

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Carr, Robert

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Bingham, R. M.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Ashton, H.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Channon, H. P. C.

  Atkins, H. E.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Baldwin, Sir Archer

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Balniel, Lord

  Body, R. F.

  Cole, Norman

  Banks, Col. C.

  Bonham Carter, Mark

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Barber, Anthony

  Bossom, Sir Alfred

  Cooper, A. E.

  Barter, John

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Batsford, Brian

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Corfield, F. V.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Braine, B. R.

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. 0. E.

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Pott, H. P.

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Hutchison, MichaelClark(E'b'gh, 8.)

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Currle, G. B. H.

  Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Dance, J. C. G.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  de Ferranti, Basil

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Redmayne, M.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Greeen)

  Rippon, A. G. F.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Keegan, D.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  du Cann, E. D. L.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Duncan, Sir James

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Leavey, J. A.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Russell, R. S.

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Fisher, Nigel

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Fort, R.

  Lloyd, Maj. SirGuy (Renfrew, E.)

  Shepherd, William

  Gibson-Watt, D.

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Glover, D.

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Glyn, Col. Richard H.

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

  Speir, R. M.

  Godber, J. B.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

  Goodhart, Philip

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Maokeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Studbolme, Sir Henry

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain (Enfield, W.)

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Green, A.

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  McMaster, S. R.

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

  Gurden, Harold

  Maddan, Martin

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

  Hall, John (Wyoombe)

  Maitland, Cdr.J.F.W.(Horncastle)

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Hay, John

  Marshall, Douglas

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

  Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

  Mawby, R. L.

  Wakefleld, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr, S. L. C.

  Wall, Patrick

  Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Hesketh, R. F.

  Nairn, D. L. 8.

  Ward, Date Irene (Tynemouth)

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

  Webster, David

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Nicolson, N.(B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

  Whitelaw, W. S. I.

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Noble, Michael (Argyll)

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Hobson, John(Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Holt, A. F.

  Page, R. G.

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Hornby, R. P.

  Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Partridge, E.

  Woollam, John Victor

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Peel, W. J.

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Mr. E. Wakefield and Mr. Bryan.

  Original Question again proposed.
  It being after Ten o'clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT, BRISTOL AND SOUTH GLOUCESTERSHIRE
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Brooman-White.]
  10.7 p.m.
  Mr. F. V. Corfield: I am very grateful for the opportunity to raise in the House tonight the matter of the industrial development of the Bristol and South Gloucestershire area. It is something which is bound to be of very considerable concern to my constituents. The industrial part of my
  1600
  constituency must be considered as part and parcel of the wider area centring upon the City of Bristol. The rest of my constituency has a somewhat different character, and I shall not dwell on its problems tonight.
  The south-western area is very much dominated by the aircraft industry. The Bristol Aeroplane Company, with its two subsidiaries, employs between 18,000 and 20,000 people in its factories at Filton and Patchway. Although many of these workers come from Bristol, just as many of my constituents work in Bristol, there are very large numbers of these workers who live in my constituency, both in Filton, Patchway, and elsewhere.
  Last year, the Bristol Aircraft Company reduced its total working force by about 1,200. At the beginning of this year, the company announced that it expected to have redundancies of an equivalent figure between the beginning of the year and 30th June. That total of

  1601
  2,400 compares with a total unemployed last month of just over 5,000, which gives an indication of the manner in which the problems of the aircraft industry now dominate the area, from the point of view of unemployment figures.
  I am very glad to say that the 1,200 estimated surplus has not, in fact, materialised. I believe that, up to date, and we have gone more than half-way through the period, rather less than 300 have been found redundant. That is partly due to the fact that many of these people have found jobs for themselves. Some of them have transferred from the aircraft company, which is the main company affected, to the Aero Engine Company, which is now Bristol-Hawker-Siddeley, which has had considerable orders for engines for the T.S.R.2, and which has managed so far to meet its redundancies on a normal wastage basis.
  Although I hope that at the forthcoming meeting, which I believe, is to take place in about ten days' time, between the company and the trade unions, it will be possible for the company to make a rather more cheerful forecast and to forecast a rather longer period before it will be necessary to reach anything like this total figure of redundancies, the fact remains that the whole of this problem is overshadowed by this feeling of uncertainty.
  I know that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply keep in constant touch, and we all very much hope that it will be possible to allocate more work to the Bristol Aircraft Company on Government contract. It seems to me that, however much that may be possible, if there are no further orders for the Britannia, the nature of the aircraft industry is such that there is bound to be something of a hiatus—a period from the time at which work on the Britannia starts to run down and the time when any other projects, even if started immediately, can produce an equivalent amount of work on the floor of the factory.
  We do not know how much work, most of whch is of a secret nature, it would be possible far the Minister of Supply to allocate to Bristol, or to what extent it will be possible to fit such work as there is into the overall policy of trying to
  1602
  allocate that work to larger units, or units which are prepared to come to some sort of agreement to strengthen their whole structure.
  I do not want to overstate the case. The last thing I want to do is in any way to belittle the feelings of anxiety with which people who happen to be unfortunate enough to be unemployed are bound to be faced. I know that it is very little comfort to be told that they are part of only a small percentage, however small it may be, except in so far as that may affect their ability to be re-employed reasonably quickly.
  At the same time, I do not want to underestimate, and I do not want my hon. friend to underestimate, the deep anxiety which this long period of uncertainty can produce for a larger number of people, who face the situation of threatened redundancy, when there is a much larger number of people than those who are actually likely to become unemployed who are overshadawed by this anxiety and fear.
  In the long run, the area is likely to be an expanding industrial area with a great deal, if not everything, to offer to the industrialist, but it is this interim period which is a matter of great concern to all of us who are in any way involved in the affairs of that part of the world. I know that taking the long-term view, we have three nuclear power stations projected in the area and the one at Berkeley has made considerable progress. We are fortunate that the Berkeley work will continue much longer than we thought originally, because of the proposal to have a large-scale research station costing, I believe, about £1 million.
  We keep hoping for the Severn Bridge, which, we have been promised, is definitely projected; the approach roads east and west thereto and, perhaps more important, the north-south road joining Bristol to the Midlands and Birmingham. All this will undoubtedly be a tremendous added attraction to the industrialist. In addition, we have the project for a big I.C.I. plant near Pilning.
  Nevertheless, in that case there are problems to some extent similar to those of the aircraft industry in that I.C.I. is not at the moment able to see its way concerning marketing with sufficient clarity to go ahead immediately, although I understand that there is no question

  1603
  whatever of deciding not to go ahead eventually.
  It is, however, the short term that is worrying. What I am most anxious about tonight is that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to give an assurance that the area will not fall between two stools, that while he is expecting and hoping great things from his right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply, which may not come off, we do not then find that other industries have been diverted to areas which at present have a worse unemployment ratio, but may well be better placed if the worst should happen in the Bristol area.
  I know that if we had an acceleration of the work on the Severn Bridge and roads that is not precisely the type of work to absorb the skills that become redundant in the aircraft industry. Nevertheless, it will produce jobs, and a number of fairly well-paid jobs. My impression of the workers is very much that if a definite apparent effort is made to help in this matter, co-operation will not be lacking.
  I also hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend will keep in close touch and be able to assure us that his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation does the same. I believe I am right in saying that there is a statutory duty on my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to consider questions of unemployment in deciding where work should be placed. There is no doubt that if work started—and I understand that plans for these roads are far advanced—it would be a great help in the meantime.
  What is much more important is if my hon. Friend is in a position to give rather more reassuring news concerning the number of vacancies likely to arise from projects already in hand in the near future and to what extent they will match the expected redundancies. I also hope that he will be able to tell us something about the general inflow of other industries into the area in the past few years, with particular regard to the employment facilities that they have created.
  I know that my hon. Friend is in some difficulty in that at present there are, regrettably, other areas with much higher percentages of men out of work. I beg him, however, to realise the great diffi-
  1604
  culties that overshadow the aircraft industry and the great uncertainties that that must produce. Until those uncertainties are cleared up, I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to assure us that at least industry is not being diverted from this area to areas which at present may be rather worse off.
  10.20 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Rodgers): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Corfield) for having used the opportunity provided by today's debate for a discussion of the employment prospects to his constituency and in the Bristol area as a whole. I know that redundancies at the Bristol Aircraft Company are causing concern locally, and I have listened with great interest to what he has said about the area.
  In reply, I should like to say straight away that the Government are well aware of the importance of Bristol as a centre of industry and of the changes which are taking place there. We are most anxious that these changes should proceed as smoothly as possible and with a minimum of hardship for local people. The Ministry of Labour will, of course, do all it can to help redundant workers to find new jobs, and I can assure my hon. Friend that, in collaboration with it and the other Departments concerned, the Board is keeping the area under close and continuous review. It seems to me, however, that, compared with many other parts of the country, the employment prospects there are not quite as bad as some of my hon. Friend's remarks might lead one to believe. I certainly agree with him that it is no consolation to an unemployed worker to be told that he is one of a small percentage, and not for one moment would I wish to minimise the grave anxiety caused by threats of unemployment.
  Reference has been made by my hon. Friend to the local dependence on the aircraft industry. As he has said, his constituency is an integral part of the Bristol area and I think that I should point out that in this area the aircraft industry accounts for less than 10 per cent. of the insured population and well under 10 per cent. of the 250,000 insured workers in what might be called the Greater Bristol area. Of the two

  1605
  firms which constitute this industry, namely, the Bristol/Siddeley Engine Company and the Bristol Aircraft Company, it is understood that the former, which employs almost two-thirds of the total, do not expect any further redundancies in the near future and that they have been replacing wastage by recruiting men redundant from the aircraft company.
  As my hon. Friend recognises, employment prospects at the second factory depend on the company's success in obtaining orders for the Britannia or for alternative work which might be undertaken at its Filton factory. We too hope that they will succeed and that the rundown of the labour force will be more gradual than was at one time anticipated. But this is a matter for the firm and more information about it will no doubt be available after the meeting with representatives of its works people which has already been mentioned.
  Of the 2,500 workers who have lost work at both works during the past fifteen months, only 77 are still registered as unemployed. Of these, fifteen are over the age of 65. While it is true that the local rate of unemployment is higher than it was fifteen months ago, it has not risen by more than the national average and has fallen in the last two or three months to a figure of 2·2 per cent. in April for the Bristol area compared with 2·4 per cent. for the country as a whole.
  This last month, the figure was down by 1 per cent. This does not suggest that Bristol is at present difficult from the employment point of view, and, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour told the hon. Member for Bristol, South (Mr. Wilkins) in reply to a Written Parliamentary Question of 8th April, the employment prospect for the 1,200 aircraft workers whom Bristol's have announced as liable to be made redundant during the first six months of this year, are, we hope, now reasonably good.
  Bristol is, of course, a thriving and well diversified centre of industrial growth, with good road, rail and sea communications. In what I have referred to as the Greater Bristol area, over 250 industrial building projects totalling almost 5 million sq. ft., were completed between 1945 and September, 1958, and, I might add, almost four-fifths of these have been completed since 1952. Together they
  1606
  were expected by the firms concerned to provide some 7,500 new jobs. Another 2,000 new jobs and 1 million sq. ft. should be provided in the area during the next two years by projects more recently completed, under construction, or likely to be started in the near future. In the longer term, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, the enormous I.C.I. project for Severnside may ultimately provide work for a further 5,000 or 6,000 workers.
  As has been said, too, the nuclear power station at Berkeley is nearing completion. It has been announced that a £1 million research establishment is to be set up alongside the station and that a second nuclear power station has been proposed for Oldbury-on-Severn. The Severn Bridge should add to the prosperity of the area both during the constructional stage and after it has been completed and communications with South Wales have been improved. By this time the new strip mill at Newport should be well under way, too.
  To the north, in the Gloucester area, there are important new projects for British Nylon Spinners, Thomas Wall, Bryce Berger and Daystrom, although the effect of these may to some extent be offset by a contraction of the aircraft industry in that locality.
  While I do not wish to minimise whatever danger of unemployment there may be in the Bristol area, from what I have said it is clear that it has been and still is getting a very full share of the country's industrial development. There are a great many places in the country in greater need of new industry, and, as the House will appreciate, there is only a limited number of firms at this moment wishing to extend and prepared to consider new locations.
  In the circumstances, the Board of Trade does not feel at present it would be justified in taking special action to attract new industries to the Bristol area or to extend to it the financial facilities which are available under the 1958 Act. I know that there has been some concern locally that Bristol is not one of the places in which She financial facilities provided under the 1958 Act are available. The reason for that is that this Act was designed to help those parts of the country outside as well as within the Development Areas where unemployment is particularly and persistently high. It

  1607
  will be appreciated by hon. Members that this assistance must be confined to those places where, on an objective criterion, unemployment is most serious, and that it would defeat the purposes of the Act if places such as Bristol were given the benefit of it.
  In conclusion, I can assure the House that all the points which have been made in this short Adjournment debate are in our minds in the Board of Trade and that I am in close touch with my colleagues in other Ministries about those points which are primarily their concern. Moreover, as I have said, the whole employment position in the Bristol area will be watched closely, and if unemployment in the area should unfortunately increase we will not hesitate to take what further steps are appropriate to help the area.
  I should like to assure my hon. Friend that we are mindful of the problems which may face Bristol in the future. We are watching the position most carefully, and if we think special action should be required we shall not hesitate to take it, but I should be less than frank with the House if I did not say that at this moment there are other areas which have priority over Bristol. I think that if the House, as it usually is, is fair-minded on the subject it will appreciate that the first endeavour of the Board of Trade must therefore be to try to steer industries to those areas where there is high and persistent unemployment while still watching most carefully the position of Bristol in the industrial scene.
  10.29 p.m.
  Mr. W. A. Wilkins: I welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate initiated by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Corfield), because, as you will know, Mr. Speaker, I have myself been balloting in the hope that I should get an Adjournment debate particularly on the question of the redundancies which have taken place and which may still take place in the aircraft industry in Bristol. Despite everything the Parliamentary Secretary has said here tonight, I can assure you there is very grave anxiety in our city about it. We are grateful to know that the number of redundancies threatened to occur before the end of June have slowed down. It is our earnest hope that ultimately the redundancies will cease altogether. We all wish to see this industry thriving.
  1608
  I am concerned at the attitude of the Board of Trade. In 1936, when I was a member of the Bristol City Council—I had the honour of serving for ten years—there was a body of people, a committee of the council, called the Bristol Development Board. That board was highly successful in its efforts to attract industry to Bristol. There is every reason why industrialists should want to come to the city. There are good rail and road connections. We have an excellent dock undertaking, perhaps not as large as those at Liverpool and Southampton, but it ranks among the most efficient in the country.
  The development board, which did excellent work for the city before the war, has given place to a committee called the Public Relations and Publicity Committee. It comprises people prepared to put in quite an amount of effort in an attempt to attract additional industries to our city. Already we have a highly diversified industry, and in that regard we are extremely fortunate. But according to the advice which I have received, this committee is restricted in its efforts to attract industry to Bristol because the Board of Trade will not grant the necessary licences.
  It is now some years—I do not know just how long—since the Board of Trade decided that Bristol could not take in any more industry, at least for the time being. It seems to be something more than a coincidence, something which is bound to cause grave alarm, that the industries which are contracting, due in the main, as we say, to Government policy, are coal, textiles, and the aircraft manufacturing industry. We cannot understand why the aircraft industry should be contracting. Comparatively speaking, it is one of the youngest of our industries and everything would seem to point to a growing demand.
  It is baffling, especially to the workers in the Bristol Aircraft Company, who are just as concerned for their colleagues in other parts of the country, why the decision has been made that this industry must contract by about 100,000 people. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the number of people employed in the industry in Bristol was under 10 per cent. of the total employable population, and that may well be the case. But the Government must be reminded that quite a lot of people employed in the Bristol

  1609
  Aircraft Company came in answer to the call during the war for workers to produce aircraft for the Services. They came from as far away as Glasgow and the north-east and north-west of England. They have bought houses in Bristol and have entered into other commitments, and so one can appreciate their alarm. We shall see that reflected on Sunday evening in the May Day demonstrations in Bristol. I am confident that there will be a massive turn-out from the Bristol Aircraft Company in an attempt to focus the attention of the people of Bristol on the serious difficulties which may arise in the ensuing months.
  The Minister mentioned the Severn Bridge as one of the projects likely to bring relief to the city. I am heartily sick of hearing about the Severn Bridge. I sat on a Committee in 1936 discussing the Severn Bridge project. At that time it was in conjunction with a hydro-electric scheme. The reason I was on that Committee was that I was a member of the municipal electricity undertaking and we were brought into the picture because of the hydro-electric part of the scheme.
  Will the Parliamentary Secretary once again try to bring some pressure to bear on his colleague the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation and impress on him the urgent necessity of having this bridge. When I hear talk about Tyne tunnels and
  1610
  other things, I remember the pressure brought on us for over twenty years, not necessarily from industrialists in Bristol, but people right down the south-west who would save enormous sums—far more than it would cost to build a bridge—in road transport and freight charges and so on.
  We admit that perhaps this is a problem which is not so serious in the City of Bristol, but if the Board of Trade would only let us have our head in this matter and indulge, as we did in years gone by, in encouragement of industrialists and manufacturers to come to Bristol, we might do something about resolving the problem. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will give consideration to this point and see whether the Board of Trade can remove some of the restrictions it has put on the public relations committee. We now have plenty of land. We have been carrying out Government policy and have a very urgent slum clearance scheme—for which the members of his party in the city are castigating us. We are clearing the land and there are plenty of opportunities for expansion and to go ahead if only the Government will say the word.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-three minutes to Eleven o'clock.

COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  Commonwealth Exhibition
  Commonwealth Exhibition
  Brigadier K. C. Meiklejohn
  Brigadier K. C. Meiklejohn
CENTRAL AFRICAN FEDERATION
  Consultations
  Consultations
BASUTOLAND
  Secondary Industries
  Secondary Industries
  Teachers (Training Facilities)
  Teachers (Training Facilities)
  Mineral Resources
  Mineral Resources
EDUCATION
  Physics Masters
  Physics Masters
  Primary Schools
  Primary Schools
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Higher Civil Service (Pay)
  Higher Civil Service (Pay)
  Foreign Travel Allowance
  Foreign Travel Allowance
  British and United States Companies (Investments)
  British and United States Companies (Investments)
  Social Services (Expenditure)
  Social Services (Expenditure)
  Earnings, Pensions and Retail Prices
  Earnings, Pensions and Retail Prices
  Income Tax (Schedule D)
  Income Tax (Schedule D)
  Income Tax Forms (Simplification)
  Income Tax Forms (Simplification)
  H.M. Stationery Office
  H.M. Stationery Office
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Cotton Industry (Reorganisation)
  Cotton Industry (Reorganisation)
  Argentine Import Charges
  Argentine Import Charges
  Export Credits (Indonesia)
  Export Credits (Indonesia)
KENYA
  Land
  Land
NYASALAND
  Collective Fines
  Collective Fines
  Mr. William Chokani
  Mr. William Chokani
MAURITIUS
  Executive Council
  Executive Council
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Office Workers (Report)
  Office Workers (Report)
  Unexploded German Bombs
  Unexploded German Bombs
  Prisoners, Bermuda (Transfer to U.K.)
  Prisoners, Bermuda (Transfer to U.K.)
SCOTLAND
  Vacant Houses, Lanarkshire
  Vacant Houses, Lanarkshire
BRITISH ARMY
  Camp, Nairobi
  Camp, Nairobi
EMPLOYMENT
  School Leavers, Cardiff
  School Leavers, Cardiff
  ANGLO-FRENCH TALKS
  ANGLO-FRENCH TALKS
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Horticulture (Grants Scheme)
  Horticulture (Grants Scheme)
HOSPITALS
  Orange Squash
  Orange Squash
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Recruitment, Durham (Miners)
  Recruitment, Durham (Miners)
CIVIL AVIATION
  Belfast Airport
  Belfast Airport
ROADS
  Uxbridge
  Uxbridge
  London-Birmingham Motorway (Service Areas)
  London-Birmingham Motorway (Service Areas)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Exeter

PICTORIAL STAMPS
3.4 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their attention has been drawn to the large number of small pictorial stamps of low values issued by British Commonwealth, Colonial and other countries in different parts of the world depicting their historical monuments and buildings, scenic beauties and other appropriate and attractive subjects; and what steps they propose to take to enable similar features in the United Kingdom to be portrayed to the world in extensive fashion on small British pictorial stamps of low values hearing the Sovereign's head.]
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I have nothing to add to the information given in reply to the noble Viscount's many earlier Questions on this subject.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer, which is, as usual, of a most disappointing nature to many people throughout this country. Is the noble Lord aware, and is the Postmaster General aware, that I should not pursue this campaign for small pictorial stamps year after year unless I had supporting me the travel organisations in Scotland and in England and, as my Press cuttings show, large sections of the public in this country? And is he aware that I propose to continue this campaign until the Postmaster General sees the light?
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there are in this House many noble Lords who, whilst admiring the past, present and future determination of the noble Viscount in this matter, nevertheless urge Her
1192
Majesty's Government not to succumb to the seductive blandishments of the noble Viscount, but to preserve the traditional form and design of the stamps in this country, which was, and is, the pioneer of philatelic decency and design.
LORD AILWYN: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the gentle persistence of the noble Viscount opposite in pursuing this matter and, I may say, one or two other matters, evokes great sympathy and understanding among some of us on this side of the House; and could he not be given some meed of encouragement to tide him at least over the Whitsun Recess?
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there arc noble Lords on this side of the House who heartily support the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, in the representations that he is making? I should like to support him, too, and to ask this question. How can we possibly get the Postmaster General to look at this matter again and to have regard to opinion on the subject in the country, and particularly the opinion and interest of the enormous number of stamp collectors in this country and the British Commmonwealth who would like to see this done?
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that there are many people in this country who realise that we inherited from our ancestors a really beautiful design and who will regret seeing it altered, even by reason of the thistle for special stamps for Scotland whose validity in England people sometimes doubt? If they are determined to paint the lily, will the Government, in considering the illustrating upon these small stamps of our beauty spots for the sake of visitors, consider also altering the state of the roads that are up in London at the present time?
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that if the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, and the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, had the opportunity of seeing Press cuttings in favour of this proposal that I have had in the last five years they would alter their views on the subject? With the assent of the House, I would ask this further question. In order to test this matter. will the Postmaster General have

1193
designs of small pictorial stamps made of the nature of the designs which I exhibited to this House on May 16, 1956? And if he will not have those designs made, why will he not?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am aware of one thing in particular: that it is rather unreasonable that I should be expected, and probably impossible for me to do to answer some seventeen supplementary questions which have been put in a never-ending cascade. I think I can say (and I hope I am not getting anything seriously wrong) that Her Majesty's Government, my right honourable friend and I are severally or collectively aware of most of the points that have been put. The point that we are not aware of is that there is this substantial demand for pictorial stamps in this country that the noble Viscount claims. I am certainly aware that there is support for the noble Lord on the Benches opposite. But I repeat that perhaps your Lordships would prefer to discuss this subject at greater length on a Motion at a later date—and the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, as is usually the case, has one on the Order Paper. At the moment, there is no intention to depart from the present well-reasoned, attractive and well-liked stamp policy.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, with the assent of the House, I should like to ask the noble Lord to ask the Postmaster General whether he would agree to my proposition that he should have designs made of these stamps in order to see what they are like.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, as a matter of courtesy to the noble Viscount—which one always hopes to extend in this House—I will certainly convey his request to my right honourable friend.

MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVI- SIONAL ORDER (WEST HERT FORDSHIRE MAIN DRAINAGE) BILL
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.
DEER (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to with Amendments: the said Amendments to be printed.

COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT AND WELFARE (AMENDMENT) BILL
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Perth, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a. —(Earl St. Aldwytt.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

NATIONAL ASSISTANCE (AMENDMENT) BILL
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Ingleby, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a—(Viscount Breiltford.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

AGRICULTURAL IMPROVEMENT GRANTS BILL
Read 3a (according to Order) and passed.

RESTRICTION OF OFFENSIVE WEAPONS BILL
3.8 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MORRIS OF KENWOOD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. It was only yesterday that I made my maiden speech in your Lordships' House, and I earnestly hope that your Lordships will extend to me as generous a patience to-day as was given to me then. I consider it a privilege to submit this Bill, which has been

1195
sponsored in another place by the Member for North-West Leicester, Mr. Barnett Janner, and I sincerely hope that it will meet with your Lordships' general approval.
The purpose of the Bill is set out in the Long Title and its single operative clause; and I believe that it is clearly indicated that the intention is to ban the making, disposing and importation of flick knives and flick guns. These dangerous instruments have blades concealed in handles, from which they are ejected by the pressure of a button in the handle or a trigger attached to the handle. They flash out, or are thrust out, with frightening speed, and are held fixed by a device as soon as they are opened.
It is not perhaps inappropriate that someone like myself, who was born and bred in Sheffield, should introduce a measure designed to remove the stigma which has become attached to the word "knife". Sheffield is a city which holds, and deservedly holds, the reputation of producing the finest steel and steel products in the world, and in most countries there is a demand for Sheffield cutlery and knives. But Sheffield makes these goods for domestic and legitimate purposes, and I am glad to say that as recently as Monday I was told that there is no evidence whatsoever that any of these horrible instruments are manufactured in Sheffield. Those flick knives that I have seen were manufactured in Germany and Italy, and accordingly the Bill seeks, inter alia, to ban their importation.
It has been suggested that flick knives are essential to certain trades, but this contention has not been borne out by any evidence. Indeed, information has been received from representatives of some of the bodies concerned denying that this is so.
I am particularly distressed by the fashion or cult which has grown up among our children and young people who seem to regard these instruments of violence as being an essential part of their dress. They seem to think it smart and clever to carry these knives, and appear to get some extraordinary thrill from the actual flicking open of the blade.
I should like to read to your Lordships an extract from a letter received from a Leicester cinema manager which stresses these points. He says:
1196
"Many of the managers on my own district have taken flick knives away from children entering our Saturday morning matinees, and these have been of all shapes and sizes. The children are proud of these weapons, which in some cases have been given to them by their parents as presents."
The letter also says:
" We have also had considerable trouble with the Teddy boy element, who also use similar weapons for ripping cinema seats, which is becoming a grave problem in the industry to-day."
In our country the use of cold steel for attack has hitherto been regarded as un-British, unsportsmanlike and contemptible as indeed it is. The very fact that youngsters carry around these knives so nonchalantly is dangerous in itself, because it creates an outlook on the part of the youth of this country that it is the proper and natural thing to do.
May I give two examples of this? The first concerns a story which is told by a secretary of her young eight-year-old nephew. She said:
" He recently received a belated Christmas present from an uncle in the U.S.A. I was there when he opened the parcel, and when he saw it was a knife, he exclaimed ' A flick knife ! ' Actually it was a handsome pen knife. … He immediately 'flicked it' to open it. His mother explained to him that it was a penknife used primarily for sharpening pencils, and she showed him the proper way to open it. However, she was curious to know where his knowledge of flick knives came from, and he explained quite innocently that a boy in his form carried a knife that opened that way."
The second example concerns an employee in the office building of Mr. Janner. Only yesterday, apparently, this employee told Mr. Janner that his brother arrived home and found his two boys, aged seven and five, with two enormous flick knives. He was horrified and immediately took them away from the boys. But no amount of persuasion could get them to tell him from where they had got them.
I would submit that the danger of these weapons lies in the fact that they can be held in the hand, unopened and unseen, and then, by the pressing of a button can suddenly and dramatically become an extremely lethal weapon. It is obvious that this weapon holds a particular fascination for quite a number of young people in this country, and I feel that the public should be protected from these individuals and from the weapon itself. So strong is the anxiety in this country

1197
about these knives that many organisations, such as the Council of the Magistrates' Association, the National Association of Boys' Clubs, the National Association of Women's Clubs, the National Association of Youth Leaders and Organisers, and the Association of Municipal Corporations have passed resolutions supporting this Bill; and a vast number of letters have been sent to Mr. Janner from all parts of the country urging its speedy passage. This campaign has also received the wholehearted support of the National and Provincial Press, in particular the Daily Mirror, which has been running a public-spirited campaign against flick knives and other forms of dangerous weapons. I should also like to mention the Leicester newspapers, which have supported Mr. Janner in his efforts from the very beginning.
I should like to conclude by reading an extract from a dramatic letter from Mr. William Gibson, of Princebridge, Darlington, which so vividly and clearly illustrates the desirability of this measure. He says:
"The incidence of crimes involving personal violence, and even death, through stabbing with flick knives and the like, in the hands of irresponsible youths and certain foreigners, when alone, and more often in gangs, prompts me to solicit your influence and that of any association within reach of your good offices, to so secure that such offensive weapons arc not imported nor manufactured and distributed for sale in this country. The knives in question have no real practical use except the wicked purpose I have indicated—that of stabbing. The law has already provided severe penalties for persons carrying, or in possession of offensive weapons, but left untouched the dealer who exposes for sale, or sells them. The purchaser who has completed the buying of an offensive knife in a shop is within the law, but once outside, in a public place and in certain circumstances, it would appear he is committing an offence against the law, and then comes the possibility of a sorrowful and maybe tragic sequel … My motive in writing this appeal springs from a heart still grieving the loss of my only son, age 21 years, who in June of this year was killed by being stabbed with such a knife as I have described. Nothing we can do can bring him back, that truth is obvious; but it seems to me some legislation at national level is demanded to protect the public and to combat this modern menace of recent origin, which is so un-British in character—meantime, many parents up and down the country remain worried and anxious. Alone I can do so little—can you help please?"
This legislation banning the flick knife is essentially preventive in nature. It acts upon the offender before the fatal or other irreparable mischief is done. I
1198
hope that I have shown your Lordships that this Bill will play a useful part in curtailing armed assault, particularly among the youth of this country. May I again appeal to the House to give the Bill its support on this Second Reading, and a speedy passage through all its stages. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Morris of Ken wood.)
3.20 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords. I should like to begin by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Ken-wood, on going to work so quickly after making his maiden speech yesterday, and particularly on the clarity and eloquence he has displayed in introducing this Bill; I think he has done a very good job on it.
The carrying of offensive weapons, particularly by young people, has caused concern for many years, and that was a point which came out again strongly in the recent and very interesting debate on crime which we had, initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham. Indeed, it was this concern which led Parliament in 1953, when my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack was Home Secretary, to pass the Prevention of Crime Act. Your Lordships know the provisions of the Act. Under its provisions it is an offence to be in possession of an offensive weapon in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. And an offensive weapon is defined as
" any article made or adapted for use for causing injury … or intended … for such use."
There are, in fact, large numbers of articles which may be used for offensive purposes. They include, of course, all kinds of knives and many other things which have a legitimate use. and some of the most formidable weapons have so far turned out to be either home made or very highly improvised. The definition in the 1953 Aot covers genuine weapons, such as stilettos and knuckle-dusters. It covers any article made for some quite legitimate purpose but adapted simply for use as a weapon, and any article which, though innocent in itself, is capable of being carried for an offensive purposes. Indeed (though I do not suppose your Lordships have ever thought of it), even the humble umbrella, which so many of your Lordships carry,

1199
used in the right way in the wrong hands, can inflict a fearsome amount of damage.
Her Majesty's Government thought, in 1953 and since, that it was better to legislate for the use of offensive weapons generally in this way, rather than attempt to impose controls on particular kinds of weapons. The Act has made a valuable addition to police powers, and it has been thought best to rely on it to deal with the particular problem of the flick knife among all the other weapons. It was also thought that controls on the manufacture, sale or import of any particular weapon would be somewhat difficult to enforce.
The noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood, however, has put forward the view that the special danger of the flick knife lies in its peculiar, perhaps glamorous, attraction for young people. They carry them, as he pointed out to be in the fashion, and not with any—or certainly no primary—serious intention of using them for offensive purposes: but they may be tempted to use them in circumstances where young people gather together and for one reason or another tempers may become heated. He has made the case that this difficulty can be met only by cutting off the sources of supply of flick knives, and that is what the Bill sets out to do. If your Lordships decide that the Bill will serve a useful purpose in this way, Her Majesty's Government see no reason to object to its provisions or the way in which it is drafted. When the Bill was introduced in another place some small Amendments, designed to enable it to achieve its objects more effectively, were suggested to the honourable Members who were promoting the Bill, and were accepted by them and have been written into it.
The point I feel I must make is that your Lordships should not overestimate the contribution which restrictive legislation of this type can make to the reduction of crimes of violence. I quoted some figures in the debate on crime the other day; I will briefly mention them again. In the Metropolitan Police District in 1958 there were 2,857 people who were concerned in crimes of violence or being in possession of offensive weapons, and of those only 65 were armed with flick knives.
There is another difficulty which I must briefly mention, and that is the question
1200
of the complete enforceability of the Bill: I am referring particularly to the ban on imports. Obviously, from the trade or wholesale point of view, the ban on imports would be quite effective; but it will still be possible for individuals to buy flick knives on the Continent and bring them back in their pockets. I certainly could not say, and your Lordships could hardly expect, that the Customs officers would be able to ensure a complete ban on importation of flick knives in that way; although, of course, if any were drawn to their notice, if, for example, they found one wrapped up in the folds of a dressing gown, it would be seized. Even if this Bill does succeed to a considerable extent in cutting off the supplies of these knives, we must remember that there are a great many other weapons at the disposal of those who are determined to use a weapon. But with those few words of what I have seriously regarded as necessary warning, I would leave it to your Lordships to give this Bill a Second Reading if it commends itself.
3.27 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I join with the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood, both on the outstanding maiden speech which he made yesterday and on his equally outstanding speech in introducing this Bill to-day. It is given to few noble Lords to have the privilege of making a maiden speech one day and to follow that up by introducing a Bill the next. I think the last occasion when something of that kind happened in this House was when the noble and learned Viscount made his maiden speech and introduced a complicated measure at the same time. The noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood, has not quite reached that stage yet, but of course he is not yet Lord Chancellor—perhaps he may be in the near future.
The noble Lord, Lord Chesham, I thought, rather damned the Bill with faint praise. Obviously, neither he nor the Government are 100 per cent. enthusiastically in favour of it. He has been good enough to say that the House may have a free vote on the matter. That is a precedent for which we are grateful and to which we may refer on another occasion. I hope that the House will take advantage of this freedom to give the Bill every possible support. Even

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taking the case that the noble Lord made, of 2,857 prosecutions for crimes of violence, in which only 65 involved the use of flick knives, one could hope that 65 crimes would have been avoided and 65 fewer people injured as a result.
LORD CHESHAM: May I interrupt the noble Lord on that point? I am sorry to do so. I should much dislike it to be thought that I would not agree with him completely in what he has said about avoiding 65 crimes. The point I was trying to make is that the flick knife has received such tremendous publicity that there seems to be a feeling it is in very wide use among people who use it for offensive purposes. I was trying to make the point that the effect of banning it on the number of such crimes should not be overestimated.
LORD SILKIN: Nobody would imagine that this Bill is of itself going to eliminate crimes of violence among young people. Of course not. But it is hoped that it will make a reasonable contribution; and I think that as such we should welcome it.
I was going to ask in what sort of numbers these knives are being imported. I do not know whether any figures are available, but it is certainly most gratifying to learn—I take it that the noble Lord, Lard Chesham, does not disagree with the statement of Lord Morris of Kenwood—that none of these knives, so far as we know, is manufactured in this country. I have had the opportunity of seeing them. I must confess that they are rather attractive-looking articles, and would certainly be attractive to young people, apart from their dangerous potentialities as weapons; and perhaps the fact that they are such attractive-looking weapons is all the more reason why they should be prohibited.
I am glad to find that anybody who gives such a weapon to another person will be committing an offence. One of the most dreadful things a parent can do is to encourage a child in the use of a weapon of this kind. In future, if this Bill becomes law, parents who present their children with weapons of this kind will be equally guilty of an offence. I feel that this Bill could, with profit, be looked at again in Committee. There are one or two points we might discuss, though I shall not trouble the House with them at this moment. I am not sure whether the importation clause is strong
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enough, but we can have a closer look at that. I hope that the House will give this Bill a unanimous Second Reading, and will show its complete distaste for the use of weapons of this kind among children.
3.32 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, I should like to join in the general approval which has been voiced in regard to the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood, and to congratulate him on moving the Second Reading of this Bill. which I support without very great enthusiasm. My feelings are based largely on the speech of the Minister who pointed out the Bill's shortcomings and how this most unfortunate and unpleasant business of flick knives has, possibly, been spot-lighted a little beyond its merit. It is a fact that the Bill will not necessarily wipe out the problem, because naturally those who indulge in this form of weapon will not be totally deterred by legislation. I think we must be careful therefore, to keep our sense of proportion, and to remember that it is natural for all small boys, and less small boys, to feel some affection for these weapons.
It is natural that, when you have an article, you wish to use it. Your Lordships may recollect, perhaps, playing with a wooden sword which caused great pleasure; but a sword painted with silver paint gave even greater pleasure. Similarly, if in the parents' garage there is a brand new car, there is a temptation to take it out and have a ride in it. Therefore, there is a natural temptation to use these most unpleasant weapons. Cowboys and pirates and weapons—toy weapons—are natural to young people, though I do not say that they are another sort of peril and that we should restrict the use of such harmless toys.
I suggest that the excessive thuggery at the moment is due to three separate causes, for which we all have some responsibility. Of course, the young people that we find engaging in these things are the children of those who served in the war, or who were contemporaries of those serving in the war, where commando fighting activities had a certain attraction. If any of your Lordships ever went through a course of stiletto using or silent killing, or other unconventional methods of attack, he will remember that it had an attraction; but those who, perhaps, were

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of more senior years and had a little more responsibility always had a pang of conscience when these methods were used. It seems to me that the parents of this present generation are not actually to blame, but are responsible for their own children and for passing on a degree of responsibility to the next generation of parents. There is a risk, I think, that, even now, parents of this and the next generation of young people are tempted not to take enough trouble to educate their children in this respect.
This idea of unpleasant weapons is no new manifestation. It is due to a spirit of adventurous enterprise. I think we can be happy in the knowledge that there are various youth movements, such as that started fifty-one years ago by the father of the noble Lord, Lord Baden-Powell, who I am glad to see in his place, and going on to-day where adventure and enterprise can be directed into channels of leadership and responsibility and cooperation. I think we must see that the energies of young people should be guided in that sort of way, and that we should not take measures to suppress them.
3.36 p.m.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I should like briefly to support all that has been said in favour of the Bill, in particular by my noble friend the Deputy Leader on our side of the House. I should like to join in the hearty congratulations to the noble Lord who explained this Bill and recommended it, as it seemed to me, in an altogether model fashion. I should like also to thank the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, at any rate for withdrawing Government opposition. It would be hard to say whether he supported the Bill. He seems to be the only person in the House who, at the moment, is unable to decide whether or not he is in favour of the Bill. At any rate, he left it to us, and I thank him for that, because at an earlier stage the attitude of the Government was less forthcoming. I am grateful for that progress.
I need not say more about this Bill, except to echo what has been said already by my noble friend Lord Silkin. I agree with the Minister that the effect of the Bill should not be overestimated. Obviously, this is a small part of the task to be accomplished, but it will help to
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mobilise public opinion against these terrible practices. I therefore join in supporting the Bill, in congratulating the noble Lord, and in thanking the Minister for the progress in the Government's attitude towards it.
3.38 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I am glad to be able to remember that I am the only noble Lord present who voted against the Prevention of Crime Bill in your Lordships' House. Perhaps I may be permitted to say that I, too, support this Bill. I think you can hardly blame boys who are given flick knives for being pleased at having them in their possession. I can still remember my pleasure when I was given my first Norwegian knife. I thoroughly echo what the noble Lord, Lord Rea, has said.
There is one point which troubles me a good deal—it has troubled me in the past. It was touched on gently by the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood, though not by any other noble Lord here. Most of your Lordships go home in good time, in taxicabs or in your own motor cars, or in buses. The noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood, said that steel was contrary to British feeling. I have asked before, and I ask again—nobody has yet given me an answer—what is an old man like myself to do if, when walking home across a common or in a deserted street, he is attacked by a bruiser who can slay him with one blow?
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords. may I interrupt the noble Lord? The noble Lord, Lord Chesham, has, I understand, suggested that an umbrella used in the right way would be equally successful.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I have never taken lessons with an umbrella. This question has never been answered. An old man whose lungs are gone and whose muscles are flabby ought to have the means of defending himself from attack. It is no use saying that he can call a policeman. Before he has finished calling he will be dead, and the policeman will be a long way away. I think that question ought to be answered, although it is no reason for opposing this Bill.
LORD REA: May I suggest that if the noble Lord does not think that steel is un-English he might provide himself with a suit of armour?
3.40 p.m.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood, has done a definite service in bringing forward this small measure this afternoon. Despite the doubts which the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, seems to have about its adequacy, there is no doubt that, for the limited purpose for which it has been introduced, the Bill ought to prove effective. In passing, I would commend the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood, not only for introducing the Bill but also for the brevity with which he did so—an example which might be followed with advantage by many of the seniors here.
It is perfectly true, as he said, that the use of cold steel in this country is a modern and most unpleasant development. It was hardly ever heard of before the last war, for even the razor gangs that used to infest Glasgow, the race courses in the South and what may loosely be called the Soho area of London very seldom caused the death of their victims. In fact they were anxious not to do so. Very nasty mutilations were inflicted, but death was not caused. But the use of really lethal weapons, which can cause immediate death, in a street brawl is a new and most unpleasant phenomenon, and anything which can be done to reduce the likelihood of any further occurrence of this kind is entirely commendable.
My real reason for getting to my feet this afternoon is to draw attention to what seems, at first sight (I hope it is not), to be an omission from the Bill. Clause 1 (2) says:
"The importation of any such knife … is hereby prohibited,"
but no provision seems to be made for any penalties for someone who tries to bring such knives into the country. Provision is made for justifiably heavy penalties upon anyone who
"manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, or lends or gives"
these weapons, but so far as can see, someone returning from the Continent might bring in a gross of these horrible weapons and nothing could be done,
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except that the Customs would be able to confiscate them and, presumably, destroy them. I should like an assurance that some penalty can be applied to a person who tries to introduce these weapons. As the Bill stands, possession of these weapons is not an offence. A man may be found by the Customs to have a large number of them, yet under the Bill there seems to be no penalty which can be applied. However, I most heartily commend the Bill, and I should like to see some slight Amendment made to it for the purpose of which I have spoken.
3.43 p.m.
LORD MORRIS OF KENWOOD: My Lords, I should like just to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, and in particular the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, for his kind personal remarks. I would assure the noble Lords, Lord Chesham and Lord Rea, that in spite of all the publicity which has been given to these flick knives, the promoters of this Bill do not pretend that it is a sweeping measure. Nevertheless, I am sure your Lordships will agree with me that any measure which can contribute in some small way to the prevention of crime is a useful Bill. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, for his comments on the question of imports, and I would tell him that this point is under consideration. I now trust and hope that your Lordships will give this Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

THE WHITSUN RECESS
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I should like to inform your Lordships that Parliament will adjourn for the Whitsun Recess on Friday, May 15, and reassemble on Tuesday, June 2. It is hoped that it will not be necessary for the House to sit on Friday, May 15 and that we shall be able to adjourn after Business on the Thursday.

HOUSE PURCHASE AND HOUSING BILL
Considered on Report (according to Order).
Clause 1:
Designation of building societies for investment by trustees and government loans
1.—(1) Where the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies (in this section referred to as the Registrar) is satisfied that a permanent building society fulfils such requirements as to its assets and liabilities, liquid funds, reserves, and other matters, as the Treasury may by regulations prescribe, he may designate the society for the purposes of this section; and where a society has been so designated and the designation has not been revoked—

(a) the powers of a trustee under section one of the Trustee Act, 1925, or section ten of the Trusts (Scotland) Act, 1921, shall include power to invest funds of trusts in his hands by depositing with the society amounts not exceeding five thousand pounds for any one trust; and

(b) the Minister may make advances to the society in accordance with the provisions of section two of this Act.

3.46 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "of this section" and to insert:
"set out in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this subsection or either of them".
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Paper. The noble Earl, Lord Dundee, will remember that on the Committee stage of the Bill my noble friend Lord Latham put down an Amendment which had for its object the granting to the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies of discretion to give both trustee status or the power of making loans under this Bill to building societies whose assets were less than £500,000. In reply the noble Earl made a case against the Amendment and he may remember that I expressed my agreement with that part of his case which applied to trustee status; but I asked the noble Earl whether he would be good enough to refer to his right honourable friend the possibility of bringing in smaller societies as instruments for making advances under this Bill—societies which might have less than £500,000 of assets but which nevertheless were reputable and solvent and were carrying on a valuable and useful local business.
The Amendment which I have put down to-day is designed to give the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies that particular power. He may designate a society for either of the purposes set out in paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsesction (1) or for both of them. I do not know whether my Amendment is drafted in the most satisfactory manner and I am perfectly prepared to be corrected on its drafting. If I were, I should be in very good company. But I believe the purpose of my Amendment is perfectly clear and I hope that the noble Earl may find that it is possible to give to the Chief Registrar this discretion to accept building societies with assets of less than £500,000 as instruments for making advances. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 1. leave out ("or this section") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Silkin.)
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin has reminded your Lordships, the noble Lord, Lord Latham, in Committee moved an Amendment on this subject, and in our discussion the noble Lord. Lord Silkin, was good enough to say that he accepted the Government's case that societies with assets under £500,000 were not suitable to be designated as having trustee status, but he suggested that such societies might nevertheless be designated as suitable recipients for a Government loan under the Bill. He asked me whether I would consult my right honourable friend the Minister about it. I was, of course, very glad to undertake to consult the Minister, partly because I am always anxious to meet the noble Lord in any way I can and partly because the Minister and Her Majesty's Government, as a matter of general principle, certainly wish to encourage, and not to discourage, any kind of small business undertaking.
Although in replying to the noble Lord's suggestion I did not think it likely that we could meet his desire, because the adoption of his suggestion would introduce into the Bill and the White Paper an entirely new principle, it having been laid down that the societies designated as having trustee status shall be those with whom the Minister may deal in issuing these special loans for the purchase of older houses, nevertheless I was glad to talk to my right honourable friend the Minister about this suggestion,

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for we appreciate the noble Lord's motives in making the proposal. However, I am afraid that it is not possible for us to agree with it. I shall try to give the reasons as concisely as I can.
The first one is that we have an obligation not only to trustees and beneficiaries but also to public funds; and it would be a little difficult, I think, to argue that an undertaking which was not suitable to be designated as having trustee status should, nevertheless, be suitable for Government advances of public money for building society purposes. If the Government have a duty to safeguard the way in which funds of private trusts may be invested, they have no less a duty to safeguard public money. An argument that the Government ought to be satisfied on financial grounds with lower or higher standards when advancing public money is, I think, the same as asserting that the requirements for trustee status are too high or too low.
It has been accepted that the £500,000 limit is about as low as we could go in admitting societies to trustee status. I think I have already explained in Committee that there are ample societies with assets of over £500,000 to fulfil the purpose of the Bill. Altogether in the country there are 706 building societies, of which 243 would qualify on grounds of size, and of those about 170 would satisfy all the other requirements of Appendix II of the White Paper. I mentioned the figure of 170 in Committee. They are spread over the whole country in such a way that there would never be any difficulty in finding a society which would qualify to operate under the Bill.
In practice, we think it is doubtful whether the Amendment would benefit smaller building societies to the extent which the noble Lord hopes. We have made it clear that we do not want to discriminate against smaller societies as such; but if smaller societies were to be admitted to the Government's lending scheme, supposing this were feasible, rules would need to be very tightly circumscribed or the Chief Registrar's power of discretion would need to be very wide. I do not think it would be fair to the societies or to the Chief Registrar to delegate to him such extensive discretionary powers which he would have to exercise in the case of some 460 small building societies.
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I quite appreciate that the noble Lord would like to bring in societies which are (I think this was the phrase he used) valuable, reputable and serving a useful local purpose. But it is very difficult to say that the Chief Registrar, whose main purpose is to ascertain statistical facts, should have discretionary power to decide whether or not a small building society is serving a valuable, reputable and useful local purpose. He would have to decide that some were and some were not; or, if the decision were not placed with him, the rules that would have to be drawn up (and it would be very difficult to draw them up) would exclude some and include others; and it would be bound to happen that a great many of those excluded, either by the Registrar or by the rules, whichever it might be, would very often be perfectly good, well-managed, honest societies to which, perhaps, a certain stigma might be attached because they were excluded either by the judgment of the Registrar or under the rules.
There is nothing discreditable in running a business which is not quite appropriate either to have trustee status or to be the recipient of Government loans. One could be doing an excellent business and yet not be suitable for this purpose. It would be a little invidious, I think, to draw a distinction which would in many ways have to be an arbitrary one and which might have the effect of placing a certain stigma on a large number of perfectly innocent and good businesses. We do not think that it is possible to do without a certain limit of size somewhere, and we still consider that the limit of £500,000 is going as low as we reasonably can, both for the purpose of trustee status and for the purpose of receiving Government loans. I have given a great deal of thought to this matter, because as a matter of principle one never likes to do anything which may seem to be in any way to the prejudice of a smaller business; but I am afraid it is not possible for us to agree to go further than we have done in the Bill in admitting building societies for these fairly limited purposes.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Earl two questions. I gather from his statement on Second Reading that the figure of £500,000 was settled rather arbitrarily on the footing that there must be one figure or another

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and £500,000 was thought to be appropriate, having regard (shall I say) to the pattern of the building societies throughout the country. The noble Earl has said that out of 706, no more than 170 would qualify for trustee status and, therefore, for Government loans.
The two questions I should like to ask are these. First, I assume that the settling of conditions for the grant of trustee status and the right to receive Government loans was done through consultation and negotiation with the Building Societies Association. If that be the case, and if the noble Earl feels that he can answer this, I should be glad if he can tell us whether the Building Societies Association did not press for a lower figure than £500,000 and whether they did not also press that the right should be alternative; that is to say, one could get a loan without necessarily having trustee status or one could have trustee status without necessarily applying for loans. If the noble Earl could answer those questions I think it would be helpful to those of us who are considering this Bill.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. He is, of course, right in saying that there were discussions with the Building Societies Association. But I did not participate in these discussions, and I am afraid that I could not say, without notice, whether during those discussions either the Associations authoritatively as a whole, or any individual members who took part in the discussions, pressed my right honourable friend on the two points which the noble Lord has mentioned. I should need notice about that. And of course I could not say, either, whether any of the building societies asked for a higher limit than £500,000, which might also be possible. I should require notice.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, I have no inside information, though I happen to be one of the Vice-Presidents (who are numerous) of the Building Societies Association. I have no inside information.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 6 [Amount of standard grant]:
THE EARL OF DUNDEE THE EARL OF DUNDEE moved, after subsection (2) to insert:
"(3) The reduction required by subsection (2) of this section in respect of any of the standard amenities shall not be made if part
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of the cost incurred in executing the works was attributable to interference with or replacement of that amenity and the local authority are satisfied that it would not have been reasonably practicable to avoid the interference or replacement."
The noble Earl said: I think I can best explain the effect of this Amendment by giving your Lordships an example. Suppose that an owner wants to install, let us say, a bath, a wash-hand-basin, a hot water supply, and a food store, in a house which has not these things but which already has a water closet. Under the Bill at present, he could not get a grant of more than £115, because £40 would have to be deducted from the maximum of £155 for the water closet which is there already. Now suppose that, in order to fit in the bath and the wash-hand-basin, he has to remove the existing water closet and put it somewhere else. That may be just as expensive as putting in a new water closet; and to provide against that possibility we have put down this Amendment, which provides that if the local authority are satisfied that it would not have been reasonably practicable to avoid the interference with or replacement of the existing water closet, or whatever it may be, then the maximum grant of £155 will not be reduced on that account.
Another possible example is this. Suppose the owner were converting a scullery into a bathroom, and the scullery had the larder in it. There would be a suitable food store already, so he could not get a grant, as the Bill is now, for the food store. But we think that if, in these circumstances, he uses up the existing accommodation to make a bathroom, he has to put in another food store somewhere, and he should be able to get the extra grant. This Amendment has been inserted to provide for cases of that kind. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 14 at end insert the said subsection.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, this Amendment seems quite innocuous. I should like the noble Earl to say whether it is not a provision to meet the situation of a mobile water closet.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, if I may be allowed to say a few words, then perhaps the noble Earl can reply to both. I readily accept and agree with the purpose of this Amendment; and, the noble Earl having explained it, I fully understand it.

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But it did not seem to me entirely clear as drawn, and I wondered whether the noble Earl would be willing to look at the words again to see whether he could not make them somewhat clearer. "Interference with" is not a very clear or specific expression. The words "or replacement" I understand. When the explanation is given, I understand exactly what is intended, but I think that many people would not really understand it if they had not the advantage of the noble Earl being available to give that explanation.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I must confess that I should be able to understand little of any Act of Parliament if I did not have someone to give me an explanation. I am always willing to look at the words of a Bill to see whether they can be improved—and sometimes, of course, they can. I do not think the word "interference", in this particular case, is at all ambiguous. The phrase is "interference with or replacement of": "interference" might describe a fairly extensive amount of work with regard to the shifting of one of these five standard requirements. I shall, of course, be delighted to look into it again to see if it could be made clearer, if the noble Lord would like me to do so; but I cannot accept that this is more obscure than the drafting of most Parliament enactments.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 14 [Amount of contribution under s. 13]:
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord is not equally puzzled by this Amendment, which does exactly the same thing as the previous one, It is a parallel Amendment relating to houses that are owned by local authorities who are entitled to receive the standard improvement grants from the Minister, and the arguments for it are exactly the same. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 38, at end insert—
("(4) The reduction required by subsection (31 of this section in respect of any of the standard amenities shall not be made if part of the cost incurred in executing the works was attributable to interference with or replacement of that amenity and the Minister is satisfied that it would not have been reasonably practicable to avoid the interference or replacement.")—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 21 [Amount of standard grant]:
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Forbes, I beg to move this Amendment. It applies to Scotland exactly the same change as that which your Lordships have already agreed should apply to England by passing the previous Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 22, at end insert—
("(3) The reduction required by subsection (2) of this section in respect of any of the standard amenities shall not be made if part of the cost incurred in executing the works was attributable to interference with or replacement of that amenity and the local authority are satisfied that it would not have been reasonably practicable to avoid the interference or replacement.")—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

POLICE FEDERATION BILL
4.6 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
VISCOUNT TENBY: My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships long on this Bill. It is a very simple Bill, which makes one slight alteration in the Police Act, 1919. Your Lordships will remember that that Act set up the Police Federation, and that the Schedule to the Act laid down the constitution of the Federation, its functions, and how proceedings should be conducted. It laid down, for example, how elections were to be held for the various branches, and it laid clown that elections for the branch boards should be held in October and that the annual meetings should be held before the 7th November. This lack of flexibility has led to some considerable difficulty. For example, I believe that this year, the Federation being a fairly large body, it would be impossible by this time to get the hall which normally they have in time to hold the meeting by the 7th November. All this Bill does is to allow the Secretary of State to fix the date, after consultation with the three committees of the Federation; that is the only purpose of the Bill. I may say that it has the support of the Home Office. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Tenby.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, noble Lords on this side wholly approve of the purpose of this Bill; and, so far as I can follow its language, I think it carries out its purpose.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, as this afternoon I have apparently given the impression of damning with faint praise where I did not intend to damn, and of giving the House a free vote when I was merely trying to give, in a polite way, the Government's view on a Private Member's Bill, I think I had better choose my words with care. I trust that there will be no ambiguity when I say that the Government are in full sympathy with the objects of the Bill, have no objection to any of the proposals in it, or to the drafting, and hope that it will have a speedy passage to the Statute Book.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee. with Amendments.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION
5.30 p.m.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent—

Building (Scotland),

Highways,

Terms and Conditions of Employment,

Sea Fisheries (Compensation) (Scotland),

Income Tax (Repayment of Post-War Credits),

Colonial Development and Welfare (Amendment),

National Assistance (Amendment),

Agricultural Improvement Grants,

Eisteddfod,

Railway Clearing, System Super-annuation Fund,

Tees Conservancy,

Glamorgan County Council,

Gloucestershire County Council,

All Saints Chelsea.

House adjourned at nineteen minutes before six o'clock.