Sitting of 19 March 1958

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Overseas Calls (Reverse Charge Facilities)
    Mr. du Cannasked the Postmaster-General from which countries it is possible to make reverse-charge telephone calls to the United Kingdom; and whether he will arrange for such facilities to be provided from additional countries.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Kenneth Thompson): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Hirst) on 5th March.
    Mr. du Cann: Is my hon. Friend aware that the introduction of this excellent service has given great satisfaction, particularly to business men? Will he seek to extend it quickly, especially to countries within the sterling area?
    Mr. Thompson: I am pleased to have my hon. Friend's commendation. We have been able to add Finland to the list of countries I announced a fortnight ago, and we hope, if all goes well, to add the countries of the British Commonwealth before the Commonwealth and Empire Games take place in July this year.

    Bungay, Suffolk
    Mr. Edward Evansasked the Postmaster-General what representations he has received from organisations in Bungay, Suffolk, on the changes in the telephone regrouping scheme, removing Bungay and the Waveney Valley from the Norwich area; whether he is aware that this will cause inconvenience and additional cost to trading interests in that district; and whether he will have the
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    projected scheme re-examined with the object of retaining these districts in the Norwich area as formerly.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Representations have been received from the Bungay Urban District Council and the District Chamber of Trade about the charge for calls from Bungay to Norwich. The Bungay group does not adjoin the Norwich group and 1s. remains the appropriate charge for calls between them as it was immediately before the introduction of group charging on 1st January, 1958. This change did not impose any additional costs on the trading interests making calls between Bungay and Norwich. I could not make an exception to the system of group charging which has been applied uniformly throughout the country. I am sorry that it has not resulted in lower charges for calls between Bungay and Norwich as it has done for many other calls.
    Mr. Evans: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his answer will give great disappointment to the trading interests in Bungay, which has a commercial association with Norwich, and that if it were linked up with the Norwich group the rebate on charges would be effective in Bungay? Is he not also aware that the trading interests in Bungay will regard this as a grave disservice?
    Mr. Thompson: We should be sorry if they felt that. Wherever these lines are drawn, either in this area or in any other part of the country, it is inevitable that there should be a certain amount of disappointment somewhere. We have tried to do the best we can for the country as a whole, and here in any case we have succeeded in giving advantages to those who live and work in Bungay.
    Mr. C. R. Hobson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the latter part of his reply is thoroughly disingenuous and that in dealing with these uniform group charges, instead of having a certain radius of miles for group callings, these circles have been broken into in order to avoid towns of large populations, which is particularly true of the West Riding of Yorkshire?
    Mr. Thompson: That is an unfortunate charge for the hon. Gentleman to make against the Post Office. We have

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    done the best we can to give satisfaction over wide areas, and we have largely succeeded. It is true that some towns do not get all they hope for, but life is like that.

    Wick Airport
    Sir D. Robertsonasked the Postmaster-General why a public telephone is not available at Wick Airport, which handled 40,427 passengers in 1957 as well as airmail and freight.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Following a letter I recently received from my hon. Friend, discussions are being arranged with British European Airways and the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation about telephone facilities at the airport.
    Sir D. Robertson: Is my hon. Friend aware that two months ago I raised this matter with the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation, who immediately communicated with the Post Office, and that the answer received was that it was due to lack of demand? Is it not obvious, with 40,000 people passing through an aerodrome in a remote place like Wick, that such a telephone is urgently needed and is long overdue?
    Mr. Thompson: We have had no complaints apart from those brought to us by my hon. Friend. As I said, we are now to have discussions to see whether there is a need which we can satisfy and how best we can satisfy it.

  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION

    Foreign Films
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Postmaster-General (1) what notice he has given to the Independent Television Authority under Section 9 (2) of the Television Act, 1954, regarding transmissions between the hours of 7 p.m. and 10 p.m. of material of foreign origin; and
    (2) what notice he has given to the British Broadcasting Corporation under Section 15 (4) of the Licence and Agreement regarding transmissions between the hours of 7 p.m. and 10 p.m. of material of foreign origin.
    Mr. K. Thompson: None, Sir.
    Sir L. Plummer: Will the Assistant Postmaster-General talk to his right hon. Friend and try to convince him that there
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    is a grave crisis in the British film industry; that this crisis is accentuated by the habit of showing old American pictures instead of encouraging the production in British studios of British films? Further, if it is a two-way traffic, as his right hon. Friend said last week, why not encourage it by asking the programme people to give encouragement to British film production here so that they may in turn export their wares abroad?
    Mr. Thompson: I think my right hon. Friend is aware, as are other members of the Government, of the difficulties of the British film industry and would be glad to help if they could. Both the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. abide by their undertaking and responsibility to show a proper proportion of British recorded matter in their programmes.

    Reception, Essex
    Mr. B. Harrisonasked the Postmaster-General what steps are being taken to improve television reception in Essex and, in particular, in the area of Braintree.
    Mr. K. Thompson: In parts of Essex sunspot activity has caused interference during the past few months: this is becoming less serious and the British Broadcasting Corporation tells me that as it disappears reception of its programmes should generally be good. Reception of I.T.A. programmes is difficult in Braintree because of the distance from the London transmitter. The I.T.A.'s proposed East Anglian station may help here, but the site of this station has yet to be decided, and it is unsafe to make a firm forecast.
    Mr. Harrison: I am grateful for the information that what is causing interference is something which is out of the control of my hon. Friend. Will he have his Department investigate the amateur transmissions in the area, or the Service transmission, particularly from the R.A.F. base at Wethersfield, which seems to be causing some of the trouble?
    Mr. Thompson: Yes, I will be very pleased to have both matters investigated as soon as possible.
    Mr. Ridsdale: Is my hon. Friend aware that, in spite of his activities, television in the Harwich area is not very

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    good? Is he aware that I am not particularly impressed by the scientific replies he gives annually about sunspots and that I should be very glad if his Department would again look into this matter?
    Mr. Thompson: I assure my hon. Friend that we are not responsible for sunspots, but in so far as they are a factor in the matter it is my duty to report about them to he House.
    Sir L. Plummer: Can the hon. Gentleman explain why it is that sunspots do not seem to affect reception of commercial programmes in the Halstead area? Why is it that commercial programmes are received much more clearly than B.B.C. programmes?
    Mr. Thompson: I have not looked into that particular matter, but I have no doubt that the answer is related in some way to the strength of the signal received from the B.B.C. broadcasting mast, or the I.T.A. mast, and its relationship with sunspot activity.

    North-East Region (Wavelength)
    Mr. Blytonasked the Postmaster-General if he will now arrange for Droitwich, Postwick, Lisnagarvey and Londonderry, to broadcast on 276 metres and for Stagshaw to have the exclusive use of 261 metres.
    Mr. K. Thompson: No, Sir. The present arrangement whereby N.E. England and Northern Ireland share a wavelength is the most satisfactory in the general interest.
    Mr. Blyton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the considerable dissatisfaction which has existed for years about the sharing of this wavelength? Does he appreciate that on Tyneside we are suffering, not from sunspots, but from sunstroke, as a result of his policy?
    Mr. Thompson: I am aware of the dissatisfaction. I have been made very much aware of it in my present office. Unfortunately, there is not an easy solution to the problem.
    Mr. Grey: Will the hon. Gentleman explain the difficulties of carrying out this suggestion?
    Mr. Thompson: It would simply produce more difficulties for a larger number of people than does the present arrangement.
    Dame Irene Ward: Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Randallasked the Postmaster-General what technical difficulties prevent the Midland and Welsh Regions from sharing a wavelength.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Such an arrangement would spoil reception for many people in the Midland and Welsh Regions. In addition, the Welsh wavelength is particularly liable to interference from a foreign station. There is no escaping the fact that any sharing arrangement other than that between N.E. England and Northern Ireland would cause greater interference with reception.
    Mr. Randall: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend has a record of ingenuity and enterprise and that I am certain that he must have looked into this matter very carefully? However, is he still satisfied that the greatest advantage goes to the greatest number with the present method of sharing the wavelength, in view of the agitation coming from the North-East?
    Mr. Thompson: The best research which we can make into this matter bears out that this is the best arrangement.
    Dame Irene Ward: Why does my hon. Friend not explain to hon. Members opposite that a Question asked on 22nd September, 1948, and answered by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wilfred Paling) pointed out that the International Convention showed that the B.B.C. would be broadcasting just as satisfactorily as before, and that——
    Mr. Speaker: I understood that the hon. Lady gave notice to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
    Dame Irene Ward: It was not this particular matter. May I finish my supplementary question?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Lady gave notice on the previous Question that she would raise a matter which seems to me almost indistinguishable from that of her present supplementary question.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Could we not have fair shares of dissatisfaction? As the North-East has been dissatisfied for so long, would it not be better to spread the dissatisfaction somewhere else and give us a better wavelength?
    Mr. Thompson: We have long recognised that fair shares of dissatisfaction was the policy of the party opposite. We try to do the best we can in the broad general interest.
    Mr. Randallasked the Postmaster-General when the North-East will be given a separate wavelength.
    Mr. K. Thompson: It is not possible to allocate a medium wavelength for the exclusive use of the North-East. It already has a separate wavelength in the V.H.F. service.
    Mr. Randall: Will not the hon. Member listen to the protests coming from the North-East and try to find some way of solving this problem? Is he aware that this is a densely populated industrial area whose workers have contributed greatly to the national output? Does not this fact merit their having a better service from the B.B.C. than they are getting at the moment because of the shared wavelength?
    Mr. Thompson: I would not like the House to think that this matter has not had the most careful and prolonged consideration, because it has, both by my right hon. Friend and also his predecessors. We are faced with the immovable fact that this is the best arrangement which can be made while there are not sufficient wavelengths to go round. That is what we have to take into account.
    Mr. Shortasked the Postmaster-General if he will introduce a lower broadcasting receiving licence fee for listeners in the North-East of England and Northern Ireland, in view of the fact that, unlike all other listeners, they share a wavelength.
    Mr. K. Thompson: No, Sir.
    Mr. Short: Is not the hon. Member aware that millions of people in the North-East and Northern Ireland have to pay the same licence fee as everybody else when they are getting what is virtually a foreign language programme in half of their regional service? Is not this
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    grossly unjust? Will he not at least look into the matter again and try to do something for us? We are sick and tired of raising this matter, but we are going to keep on doing so until something is done.
    Mr. Thompson: I quite expect that. The hon. Member is quite wrong in saying that these areas get half their regional programmes in a foreign language. The fact of the matter is that about 10 per cent. of the total programme content comes from Northern Ireland. The licence fee cannot be altered according to the use made of a receiver; it relates to the installation and use of the receiver generally, and any other system would be quite unworkable.
    Mr. Shinwell: Did the hon. Member not say, in reply to a previous Question, that there were not enough wavelengths to go round? If so, why should the North-East be placed at a disadvantage? If it is to be placed at a disadvantage, why should its people be charged the full fee when they are getting only half a service?
    Mr. Thompson: The right hon. Gentleman has managed very adroitly to combine three previous Questions. I shall try to avoid giving him the three previous Answers. The fact of the matter is that, while there are not sufficient wavelengths for each region to have its own, some device must be adopted which makes it possible for the regions to share a wavelength in a way which will inflict the least possible hardship and inconvenience on listeners. In other words, it means seeing that the mush area falls where nobody gets it—that is, in the Irish Sea; nobody gets it there.
    Mr. Shortasked the Postmaster-General what action he proposes to take in view of the persistent refusal of the British Broadcasting Corporation to use a separate wavelength for programmes broadcast to the North-East of England; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. K. Thompson: There is no action I can usefully take. With the medium wavelengths available, the present arrangement is the best that can be made in the general interest.
    Mr. Short: Is it not obvious that the B.B.C. has dug its toes in and refused to do anything about it? Is it not clear that the B.B.C. people in charge of the

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    matter are either indifferent to the complaints of the North-East or are incompetent? Will not the Minister shake up the B.B.C. in this matter?
    Mr. Thompson: I can assure the hon. Member that the B.B.C. is not unaware of the problem or of the dissatisfaction of hon. Members opposite and residents in the North-East, and nor is it incompetent in its method of handling its wavelengths. There is a real problem here.
    Colonel Beamish: Why should the North-East of England have a separate wavelength? The South-East of England does not have one.
    Mr. Shortasked the Postmaster-General whether he will initiate discussions with the United States forces with a view to one of their medium wavelengths being made available for the North-East of England.
    Mr. K. Thompson: No, Sir. Even if the United States forces in Germany were to give up one of their wavelengths there is little likelihood of it becoming available to the British Broadcasting Corporation.
    Mr. Short: Does the hon. Member think it is right that a comparatively small number of men in the forces in Germany should have a separate medium wavelength while millions of people in these islands do not have one? Would not the suggestion in the Question be a good method of improving relations between America and Britain?
    Mr. Thompson: Even if the wavelength were given up by the American forces, there is no assurance—indeed, there is not much likelihood—that it would be made available to us.
    Mr. D. Jones: Surely the hon. Member must recognise that for many years the North-East has had to suffer this sharing, much to its dislike. If he is satisfied that the licence fee should be the same over the whole country, does he not think that in common fairness to the North-East the sharing of a wavelength should apply to some other part of the country?
    Mr. Thompson: The hon. Member is asking us to inflict an impossible situation on other people in the place of an
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    uncomfortable situation suffered by the people in the North-East, and that would be unfair.
    Mr. Greyasked the Postmaster-General how long Northern Ireland and North-East England have shared a wavelength; and whether he will now arrange for two other areas to share for a similar period.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Northern Ireland and North-East England have shared a medium wavelength since 29th July. 1945. As to the second part of the Question, the answer is "No, Sir." The present arrangement is the best that can be made in the general interest.
    Mr. Grey: Is the hon. Member aware that I have sent him a letter today in connection with this Question? If the Postmaster-General and his Parliamentary Secretary do not give us any satisfaction, the best thing they can do is to resign. It seems to us that they have proved themselves quite incompetent by having done nothing at all throughout the years.
    Mr. Thompson: I cannot help thinking that it would be greatly to the disadvantage of the Post Office if either my right hon. Friend or I were to resign.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is my hon. Friend aware that between 1948 and 1950, when our wavelength was taken away from the North-East Coast, and when hon. Members opposite were the Government and we were in opposition, not an hon. Member opposite even raised the question?
    Mr. Grey: On a point of order. May I be allowed to correct that statement?
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.
    Mr. Grey: It is quite incorrect.
    Mr. Greyasked the Postmaster-General what consultations he has held regarding the allocation of broadcasting time on the wavelength shared between North-East England and Northern Ireland.
    Mr. K. Thompson: None, Sir; the allocation of broadcasting time is a matter for the B.B.C.
    Mr. Grey: Is the hon. Member aware that the North-East is fed up with this

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    arrangement and is getting tired of hearing broadcasts of Northern Ireland news and views instead of the news and views and programmes which the North-East listeners would like?
    Mr. Thompson: I can only repeat what I have said. However sorry I am about the effects of this arrangement, there appears to be nothing better which can be provided.
    Mr. Chichester-Clark: Can my hon. Friend state what volume of complaint has come from Northern Ireland in this matter? Will he convey to hon. Members opposite our sorrow at the apparent fact that some of our programmes are too intellectually advanced for some who share this wavelength?
    Mr. Thompson: Whatever the reason, we are getting no complaints from the people of Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Short: On a point of order. The hon. Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) has given notice that she will raise this matter as it affects Lisnagarvey, Droitwich and Londonderry. I wish to give notice that I shall raise the question of the shared wavelength at the earliest possible moment.

    B.B.C. (Sound Broadcasting Policy)
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Postmaster-General whether he is satisfied that the new sound broadcasting policy of the British Broadcasting Corporation, initiated in October last, remains in conformity with the Corporation's Charter; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Yes, Sir. As regards the second part of the Question, I would remind the House that successive Governments have endorsed the independence of the B.B.C. in making programmes.
    Sir L. Plummer: Surely it has been accepted that the Postmaster-General has a responsibility for the overall policy of the B.B.C.? Will the hon. Gentleman put it to his right hon. Friend that he should now use his powers, in view of the fact that serious talks and drama have been cut drastically since the new programmes came into operation? The Third Programme has been cut by 40 per cent. and the Light Programme contains
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    nothing serious. Further, under Clause 14 (1) of the Charter it is the Minister's responsibility to talk to the B.B.C. about this depreciation in the quality of the programmes.
    Mr. Thompson: Unless and until the B.B.C. makes some drastic change in the pattern of its broadcasting programmes, my right hon. Friend is not called upon to intervene in any way. That has not happened so far. If it did, I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend would act at once.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Is not the hon. Member aware that the announcement made last October indicated a very drastic change in policy? The whole balance has been upset and the Third Programme content of the general programmes has been cut down in favour of light entertainment. Will the hon. Member look at the matter again, or discuss it with his right hon. Friend, in order to see that the reputation of the B.B.C. for good broadcasting is maintained?
    Mr. Thompson: Arguments were expressed in this House very widely at the time to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. I ought to remind the House that there were then, and still are, two sections of opinion as to the effects of these changes. So far as I can discover from the B.B.C., the Third Programme listener figures are more or less the same as before these changes were made, which would seem to indicate that they are retaining their listeners.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Is it not the fact that we have now had six months' experience which has shown that the programmes are generally of a lower standard? Will not the hon. Gentleman look at this again?
    Mr. Thompson: I am sure the B.B.C. will read the exchanges in this House today and take them into account when deciding its future policy.

    Copenhagen Conference (Wavelengths)
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Postmaster-General (1) how the United Kingdom delegates at the International Conference at Copenhagen in 1948 voted on the decision not to reallocate the wavelength for the North-East Coast; and what was the voting;
    (2) who were the United Kingdom delegates to the International Conference on Wavelengths in Copenhagen in 1948; on what grounds they agreed to the non-return of the wavelength for the North-East Coast; and to whom it was allocated.
    Mr. K. Thompson: The purpose of the Copenhagen Conference was to agree on the allocation of the long and medium wavelengths in Europe in the light of post-war needs. Post Office officials with British Broadcasting Corporation advisers put forward the claims of the United Kingdom to fourteen medium wavelengths and one long wavelength, but only thirteen medium wavelengths and one long wavelength were allocated. The sharing of a medium wavelength between North-East England and Northern Ireland, which had been in force since 29th July, 1945, had therefore to continue.
    Dame Irene Ward: Will not my hon. Friend agree that between 1948 and 1950, when we became aware that it was our wavelength on the North-East Coast which had been filched from us, no Members of the party opposite, which was then the Government, raised the question of this unfortunate decision? Can he answer that question?
    Mr. Speaker: The Minister is not responsible for the conduct of the Opposition.
    Mr. Grey: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that at least one hon. Member objected to my right hon. Friend in 1948 about sharing a wavelength?
    Dame Irene Ward: What date?
    Mr. Grey: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he has not been fair to us about the acceptance of a shared wavelength for the North-East, because it was to be a temporary measure and the arrangement should now end?
    Mr. Thompson: I can find no evidence whatever that it was ever given out that the sharing arrangement was to be temporary. All the records show that it was to be brought to an end when another wavelength became available. There is no other wavelength, and so long as that condition persists it is difficult to see what anybody can do.
    Commander Donaldson: After this short but interesting debate about the
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    North-East Coast, is my hon. Friend aware that the same conditions to some extent apply to South-East Scotland? Although we are a patient people, we are inclined to become a little impatient when nothing has been done to improve the reception on the borders of Scotland? Will he examine that matter at the same time as he is looking at the problem in North-East England?
    Mr. Thompson: The question of maintaining high standards of broadcasting reception both in sound and television programmes is a matter which is constantly before both the B.B.C. and the Independent Television Authority. I think they do reasonably well in the circumstances.
    Mr. C. R. Hobson: Is it not a fact that, as a result of the Copenhagen Conference, Great Britain received more wavelengths than any other country in Europe——
    Dame Irene Ward: But not one for the North-East Coast.
    Mr. Hobson: —and does not the hon. Gentleman think that if there were a further conference we might come out of it much worse off?
    Mr. Thompson: We certainly did very well at the Copenhagen Conference and, as the hon. Gentleman says, there is a real danger that we might lose some of our advantages if the whole matter were shuffled and redealt.

  POST OFFICE

    Housing Estates, Aberdeen
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Postmaster-General if he has yet decided to provide better postal facilities for the thickly-populated new housing estates at Northfield, Mastrick, and Cairncry, Aberdeen.
    Mr. K. Thompson: As my right hon. Friend explained to the hon. and learned Member in his letter of 12th March, the facilities on these estates are in general in keeping with those in similar areas elsewhere, except in the south-west part of Mastrick. We hope to improve the position there by opening an additional post office in the shopping centre in the north of the Summerhill area when that is built.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister not realise that if better postal facilities are not afforded two results will follow: my constituents there will not be able to send me suggestions for supplementary questions—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] —and the Post Office will get more into the red in every sense, including political, than it is at present?
    Mr. Thompson: The whole House would be sorry if the hon. and learned Gentleman's supply of supplementary questions were to be stifled, and we will try to do what we can in the Post Office to avoid that happening.

    Deliveries, Aberdeen
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Postmaster-General how many letters of complaint he has now received regarding the deprivation as from 11th January, 1958, of the second postal delivery on Saturday in Aberdeen; and what action he is taking in regard thereto.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Three letters since the delivery was withdrawn and two before that. I have told the people concerned that I should not be justified in restoring the delivery exceptionally in Aberdeen.
    Mr. Hughes: How can the hon. Gentleman account for the non-delivery to him of all the other protests sent out? Does he not realise that there must be something wrong with the Post Office? Does he realise that there are many protests against the damage to trade and industry in Aberdeen which the withdrawal of this delivery is causing?
    Mr. Thompson: If it were true that there were serious repercussions on trade and industry in Aberdeen, we should have heard much more about it. I assure the hon. and learned Member that there is no system of selection of letters coming to the Post Office from Aberdeen. [An HON. MEMBER: "No stamps on them."] Perhaps.

    King's Cross and Euston Stations
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that the postal and telegraph facilities in King's Cross and Euston stations are inadequate, and that the attention of several Postmasters-General has been drawn to this inadequacy but that it has not been remedied; what steps he is
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    taking to remedy them; and, in particular, what he is doing to provide facilities which will enable travellers to send telegrams from these stations.
    Mr. K. Thompson: The reconstruction of Euston Station includes a Branch Post Office, with provision of a new temporary office meanwhile. At King's Cross a few extra facilities have recently been provided, but as explained in correspondence with the hon. and learned Member, no more can be done until the station is rebuilt. I am not aware that the telegraph arrangements at either station are inadequate, but if the hon. and learned Member has any aspect particularly in mind, I shall be glad to make inquiry.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that I am more concerned with King's Cross, which I use when I am going to Aberdeen? Why should incoming and departing travellers at that station not have the fullest postal facilities? Will the hon. Gentleman look into the matter and see that they get those facilities?
    Mr. Thompson: The trouble at King's Cross Station is lack of room in which to provide facilities for which the hon. and learned Gentleman and others quite properly ask. We are quite ready to provide those facilities when space can be made available to us.
    Commander Scott-Miller: Is my hon. Friend aware that one cannot post a parcel at Liverpool Street Station?

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Manual of Air Force Law
    Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Air when he proposes to include in the Manual of Air Force Law a chapter on the laws and usages of aerial warfare.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. George Ward): We shall make use of the manual which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War hopes to publish in the autumn and which will deal with the principles governing the conduct of warfare generally. We should not feel justified in producing a separate work for the Royal Air Force, with particular reference to the problems of air warfare, in the absence of any codified international law on the subject.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: Is it not the case that the Geneva Convention, which we ratified as recently as last year, imposed a number of important restrictions upon aerial warfare, particularly if we are to use H-bombs as part of our strategy? In those circumstances, is it not imperative for the guidance of pilots, who may have this awful responsibility placed upon them, that there should be a chapter on the laws of aerial warfare in the Air Force Manual?
    Mr. Ward: The Geneva Convention provisions dealt with the protection of war victims, and these are reprinted in Part VI of Volume II of the Manual of Air Force Law. They deal with the wounded and sick in the field, the wounded and sick at sea, prisoners of war and the protection of civilians. That still does not mean that there is any generally ratified or codified international law about the conduct of air warfare as such.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: Is not there a whole category of protected zones provided for in the Geneva Convention, and is it not high time that the Air Ministry faced its responsibilities in this matter? What is the reason for this inaction, and why is it passed on to the War Office?
    Mr. Ward: In so far as the War Office manual deals with the conduct of air warfare—and the conduct of warfare generally is bound to impinge on the conduct of air warfare—this will be made available to the Royal Air Force and lectures will be given about it.
    Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Air why he authorised the publication of a statement in page 15 of the latest edition of the Manual of Air Force Law to the effect that there is no international law governing the conduct of air warfare.
    Mr. Ward: The statement occurs in a footnote to a chapter on the history of the R.A.F. It must therefore be read in conjunction with the text to which it relates. The two passages together refer to the absence of any generally ratified code of international law which specifically relates to the conduct of air warfare.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: Is not the statement in the Manual of Air Force Law that there is no international law governing the conduct of air warfare in complete
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    contradiction to the publication of the Geneva Convention in the same edition of the manual? Either one is right and binding or the other is incorrect, and if we are not to get a reputation for taking a lighthearted view of our obligations under the Geneva Convention, is it not time that there was urgent action taken to amend the statement that there is no international law governing the conduct of air warfare?
    Mr. Ward: While respecting the knowledge and experience of the hon. and learned Gentleman in these matters, which is perhaps unique, I must disagree with him. There is a difference between a codified and generally ratified code of international law governing air warfare and the 1949 Geneva Convention which covers only the conduct of prisoners of war.

    Eastern Europe (Flights)
    Mr. Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Air if, because of the dangerous incidents it could cause, he will stop sending British aircraft over the east-west frontier in Europe.
    Mr. Ward: No, Sir. Transport and communications flights to Eastern Europe must continue as necessary under the existing well-established procedures.
    Mr. Allaun: Is the Minister aware that I have met the author of the Oxford Isis article describing these operations and that he is an ex-Service man who was himself trained for this kind of work? Is he aware that this article states that there is a chain of British station monitoring signals between Russian ground staff and pilots and that to test Russian tactical reaction British planes are actually sent across the frontier at low level and that these planes have even been forced down? Could not this kind of provocation—this crazy provocation—spark off a new war?
    Mr. Ward: This really is very wide indeed of the Question on the Order Paper. Flights of aircraft to and from Eastern Europe—which is the subject of the Question—have to get clearance under an internationally agreed air traffic control procedure, and there are stringent instructions to prevent the penetration of the frontier by any other aircraft.

    Beverley Aircraft
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Air what steps he proposes to take to replace the existing Beverley by more modern long-range transport aircraft.
    Mr. Ward: As I explained in my speech on the Air Estimates last week, we are in consultation with the War Office about the eventual successor to the Beverley.
    Mr. Wall: Does my hon. Friend recall that in a speech a very little while ago he said that this aeroplane would last until about mid-1960? Is it not time that we got down to a prototype replacement as soon as possible? Is he aware that the makers of the Beverley have a new aircraft on the stocks and are only awaiting the starting pistol?
    Mr. Ward: My hon. Friend will no doubt agree that in ordering aircraft of this kind we must be absolutely certain that we have made a proper study, in consultation with its main user, which is the War Office, of the future requirements. I would ask him to bear in mind that the Beverley has only just entered service and will be adequate for a good number of years to come.

    Finningley Aerodrome (Incident)
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for Air what has been the result of investigations of an alleged act of sabotage of a V-bomber aeroplane at Finningley Aerodrome.
    Mr. Ward: The investigation is not yet complete. So far it indicates simple malicious damage.
    Mr. Bellenger: Will not the right hon. Gentleman cause an investigation to take place at this aerodrome, because there is a feeling in the neighbourhood of the aerodrome, which is within my constituency, that the R.A.F. are rather casual in the way they leave their aircraft about the airfield, almost on the public footpath, liable to sabotage by ill-intentioned persons?
    Mr. Ward: The perimeter of an airfield is a very large place, and it would take a lot of men to guard it. It is not possible to erect an unclimbable fence, for various reasons such as quick access to fire tenders, interference with radar and so on.
    1256
    Therefore, our policy is not to guard the whole perimeter but rather to place guards on aircraft and hangars. We think this is more economical and just as efficient. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there are enough police and police dogs to protect aircraft and hangars.
    Mr. Bellenger: While appreciating the difficulties, may I ask whether it is not possible for these very expensive machines to be concentrated nearer to the centre of the aerodrome where they can be more adequately guarded?
    Mr. Ward: It is true that the public highway runs very near to the dispersal point, but the aircraft at that dispersal point are always guarded.

    Airman (Driving Conviction)
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for Air whether the airman who was convicted of a driving offence with the subsequent suspension of his driving licence is precluded under Queen's Regulations from driving Royal Air Force transport.
    Mr. Ward: Yes, Sir.

    Nuclear Weapons (Transport)
    Mr. Masonasked the Secretary of State for Air what methods of transport are used, other than air transport, to convey atom and hydrogen bombs in this country.
    Mr. Ward: R.A.F. nuclear weapons are moved in this country only by air or road.
    Mr. Mason: While I recognise that the atom and hydrogen bombs have to be transported, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied that precautions have been taken to minimise the possibility of accident? Are the aircrews adequately versed in the procedure of dealing with any accident that might arise?
    Mr. Ward: Yes, Sir. As I explained last week, nuclear weapons moved by road are broken down into components and special nuclear components are carried separately. Specially trained Service people always travel with the weapon components and are capable of dealing with any accident.

    Aircraft (Nuclear Weapons)
    Mr. Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Air what report he has received from the United States Air Force on the accident on 11th March, resulting in the accidental dropping of an atomic bomb; and what new instructions he will therefore give regarding the carrying of hydrogen bombs on patrol over Great Britain or on towing them over British roads.
    Mr. Ward: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister yesterday.
    Mr. Allaun: Are the components ever towed through built-up areas and, if so, is there no danger of purely T.N.T. explosions?
    Mr. Ward: If the hon. Gentleman is referring to the carriage of these weapons by road, I would remind him that I have just explained about this in reply to a previous Question.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Where nuclear weapons are carried by air, is it possible to fix a parachute arrangement to the bomb so that in case of accident it can come down safely, in the same way as pilots are ejected from their seats?
    Mr. Ward: The safety precautions we take to see that the bomb is not jettisoned are very much more effective.

    United States Nuclear Weapons
    Mr. Liptonasked the Secretary of State for Air to what extent he is kept informed by the United States Government of the number and location of United States hydrogen bombs stock piled in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Ward: The arrangements for storage of United States nuclear weapons in the United Kingdom, including the storage locations, are agreed between Her Majesty's Government and the United States Government.
    Mr. Lipton: How long has the right hon. Gentleman been supplied with that information, bearing in mind that the Prime Minister did not seem to know anything about the H-bomb patrols until the Press reports appeared about the American President's speech? Does the agreement to which the right hon.
    1258
    Gentleman referred provide for a maximum number of these lethal weapons which can be stored in this country?
    Mr. Ward: Naturally we know where the stocks of these weapons may be deployed because the storage for them was built by the Air Ministry, but we should not expect to be told exactly how many weapons might be kept in any one store at any one time.
    Mr. Lipton: The answer is very unsatisfactory.

  ROADS

    Waiting Restrictions (School Exits)
    Mr. Pageasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will exercise his powers with regard to "no waiting" signs so that in order to implement Recommendation No. 19 of the Report of the Committee of 1936 on Road Safety among School Children, the parking of vehicles in the vicinity of school exits may be prohibited.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): No, Sir; In our view it is preferable that proposals for waiting restrictions outside schools should be considered on their merits in the same way as waiting restrictions generally.
    Mr. Page: Does not the hon. Gentleman recognise the danger of parked vehicles outside schools? Cannot waiting signs be used not only for the convenience of the flow of traffic but to protect pedestrians, and particularly child pedestrians? Since this principle has been recognised by the studs in the approach to zebra crossings, cannot it be applied to the exits from schools?
    Mr. Nugent: Yes, it is on its merits considered desirable to have waiting restrictions outside the schools. We recently had the advice of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee. It advised us to introduce not a general ban but waiting restrictions.

    Broughton—Torver Road (Vehicles)
    Sir I. Fraserasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if the Lancashire County Council has yet submitted

    1259
    to him, for his confirmation or otherwise, an order prohibiting the use of the Broughton—Torver road or any other relevant stretches of road by certain public service vehicles; whether they have asked him to institute a public inquiry; and what are his proposals in this matter.
    Mr. Nugent: The Lancashire County Council have asked my right hon. Friend to confirm an order prohibiting the use of this road by certain classes of vehicles, including buses. We have arranged for an inquiry to be held at Ulverston on 25th March, this year, into the county council's proposal and into the associated application to run a bus service down this road.
    Sir I. Fraser: May I ask my hon. Friend to explain to his Minister that there is a good deal more in this than meets the eye, and suggest that he had better have a very good lock at it?
    Mr. Nugent: We shall consider the report of the inquiry very carefully.

    A.30, Honiton (Traffic Congestion)
    Mr. Mathewasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what steps his Department are taking to prevent a repetition in 1958 of the prolonged traffic delays and congestion occurring during the summer holiday season on the A.30 road at Honiton, in Devon, which have regularly paralysed traffic in recent years.
    The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I have recently had consultations with the police and the motoring organisations, and I hope to make arrangements for the signposting at holiday times of an alternative route to the west, avoiding Honiton.
    Mr. Mathew: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that Answer, may I ask him if he will bear in mind that this matter has become increasingly urgent and is causing a great loss of time and money? Will he, therefore, pursue a real solution with renewed vigour and imagination?
    Mr. Watkinson: I will certainly look into what my hon. Friend suggests.

  CIVIL AVIATION

    Far Eastern Services (Polar Route)
    Mr. Croninasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what steps are being taken by the British Overseas
    1260
    Airways Corporation to inaugurate a Far Eastern service routed across the North Pole.
    Mr. Watkinson: While British Overseas Airways Corporation has no immediate plans for inaugurating a Polar route service to the Far East, I understand that the operational and commercial possibilities of such a route are being studied.
    Mr. Cronin: Will the right hon. Gentleman expedite these studies, bearing in mind that the trans-Polar route is by far the shortest to the Far East and also that Air France, K.L.M. and Lufthansa are inaugurating such services?
    Mr. Watkinson: That may be, but the Corporations pick the routes which bring the best commercial terms.
    Mr. Rankin: Has the right hon. Gentleman made any assessment of the saving in running costs if this route were used?
    Mr. Watkinson: That is the purpose of the study now taking place.

    Transatlantic Passenger Fares
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether his approval has now been given to all the decisions that have been reached by the International Air Transport Association with regard to transatlantic passenger fares; and what consideration has been given to introducing some element of competition in fares of scheduled services on this route.
    Mr. Watkinson: The answer to the first part of the Question is, "Yes, Sir." As regards the second part, the practice accepted by Governments in the past has been that a system of agreed fares is in the best interests of air transport.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the single fare from New York to San Francisco is $80 and that the same distance from London to New Work carries a single fare of $250; and that the discrepancy is brought about by the International Air Transport Association agreement? Is there not a case for letting a little frsh air of competition into the North Atlantic route, despite the activities of the Association?
    Mr. Watkinson: I will look at what my hon. Friend has said, but I think he will be aware that the new economy fare on the North Atlantic route represents a considerable drop in costs.
    Mr. Beswick: Is it not a fact that there has not been competition across the Atlantic because of international cooperation and planning, and that we have a fine service which is much cheaper than it was ten years ago?
    Mr. Watkinson: There are many different views on this matter. I welcome competition as a way of getting costs down. I think the level of fares is being reduced.

    Rearward-facing Seats
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what consideration has been given by the International Air Transport Association to the question of seats facing backwards in scheduled air liners; and whether he will, in the interests of safety, give a general direction to British European Airways and the British Overseas Airways Corporation to have a proportion of backward-facing seats in aeroplanes, so that passengers may choose such if they wish.
    Mr. Watkinson: The Association have from time to time considered this question but do not consider that operators should be obliged to provide rearward-facing seats. In the absence of any international requirement, I am not prepared to issue the direction suggested by my hon. Friend. It is open to airlines to fit a proportion of backward-facing seats if they wish to do so.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Would my right hon. Friend confirm or not that, of the 22 survivors in the Munich crash, all or a very great proportion were in backward-facing seats? Would it not be a a good thing now to try to encourage our national Airways Corporations to provide a certain proportion, perhaps 50 per cent., of backward-facing seats, as a number of passengers have a feeling that they are rather safer than forward-facing ones?
    Mr. Watkinson: As regards the Munich crash, all these facts will be brought out in the Report, on which I do not intend to comment. In answer to my hon. Friend, he may like to know —and probably does know—that modern
    1262
    British aircraft are now being fitted so that the seats can very easily face either forwards or backwards. The airline can make its choice, and it is my view at the moment that it should be able to do so.
    Mr. Beswick: The Minister says that until I.A.T.A. make a recommendation he is not going to do anything in the matter. Is it not a fact that the International Association will do nothing unless one national member takes the initiative? Is the Minister saying that he is not proposing to press this matter in I.A.T.A. in the future?
    Mr. Watkinson: What I am saying is that I.A.T.A. has stated that there do not appear to be any overriding safety requirements which require them to be mandatory. Our British aircraft are being fitted with seats that can face in either direction, and it is up to the operators of the aircraft to make their own choice on their own judgment.

  SHIPPING

    Export Goods (Port Charges)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is aware that many British exporters of goods in bulk have found that they are, in present conditions, obliged to pay higher handling charges in British ports for their export goods and chartered ships than their German competitors in German ports; and whether, in view of the approach of European Free Trade, an investigation will be made into this matter with a view to ensuring that British exporters are not handicapped on this account.
    Mr. Watkinson: Conditions vary from port to port and it is difficult to make comparisons between them, but the evidence I have does not suggest that the general position of exporters in a Free Trade Area is likely to be prejudiced by difficulties on this account.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there are grounds for investigation into the conditions in British ports compared with those in German ports, for instance, that dock labour gangs in Hamburg consist of eight people compared with twelve people in this country? Is my right hon. Friend aware that German ports are

    1263
    more mechanised than ours and that in the Port of London there are no more fork-lift trucks than in a large-sized motor factory?
    Mr. Watkinson: I do not take the view that foreigners can always do things better than we can. If my hon. Friend has any information and can let me have the details, I shall be glad to look into it.
    Mr. W. Edwards: Will the right hon. Gentleman advise his hon. Friend that it is much better to deal with these commercial and industrial matters by negotiation between employers and trade unions rather than to raise them in this House on the untrue information which is supplied to the hon. Gentleman?

    Oil Tankers (Berthing Facilities)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many of our ports in this country have a depth of over 45 feet over the entrance sill which are capable of taking 60,000-ton tankers now in commission or under construction; and what steps are being taken to modernise them so that the choice of ports for tankers will be broadened.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Airey Neave): There are no enclosed docks with a depth of more than 45 feet over the entrance sill, but in six ports the depth of water is sufficient for tankers of 60,000 deadweight tons. Dredging is to be carried out in a further three ports to provide berths for such ships. Other schemes are being investigated by the oil industry and the port authorities concerned.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that we are falling far behind in our port accommodation and that there are at present on the stocks six ships of 100,000 tons that cannot be accommodated in any port in this country? Will he review the whole position as far as our ports are concerned, and especially the accommodation necessary for the ships now on the stocks?
    Mr. Neave: I would remind the hon. Gentleman that, as I think he already knows, among the six ports which I have mentioned are Milford Haven, where berths are being provided for four tankers of 100,000 tons, and Finnart, on the Clyde, where there is to be one.

  TRANSPORT

    Vehicles (Testing)
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation for what reasons he proposes to delegate to privately-owned garages responsibility for inspection of vehicles under the provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1956, in preference to the work being undertaken by testing stations operated by his Department.
    Mr. Watkinson: Because this is the most efficient way of getting inspection done and will avoid unjustified expenditure of capital resources and skilled manpower.
    Mr. Davies: Does the Minister think that this is the most economic way of testing these old cars? Is it not a fact that the Ministry did establish a testing station at Hendon and that it proved very successful and very economical? Does he appreciate that the motorists who have to have their cars tested will not always consider that the garages are disinterested in this matter, and that it would be far better to have a disinterested party, such as the Ministry itself, to set up the testing stations?
    Mr. Watkinson: I am advised that it would cost something over £1 million to provide a Government chain of testing stations. I do not accept what my hon. Friends says in suggesting that there are not adequate safeguards against private garages which do not conduct the tests properly.
    Mr. Davies: Is it not a fact that the garages will take a margin of profit out of the testing, and that if the Ministry itself engages in the testing there would not be this additional cost?
    Mr. Watkinson: I think that is a rather odd doctrine, which is certainly not borne out by past facts in nationalised industry.

    Working Hours, Central London (Staggering)
    Mr. Partridgeasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, in view of the cuts in the omnibus services of the London Transport Executive which were announced in January last, what further action he will take to secure the staggering of the hours of work in central London; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Watkinson: The reduction of services during the peak hours will be only about 2 per cent. The London Transport Executive is, however, fully aware of the Government's view that the cost of any increase in busmen's wages following the award of the Industrial Court should be found from internal economies. In that event further cuts in service may be unavoidable. I intend in the near future to meet the Committee for the Staggering of Working Hours in Central London and the Chairmen of the Zone Sub-Committees to discuss with them the further steps they can take in 1958 to reduce peak hour travel.
    Mr. Partridge: That is all very well, but the cuts are coming, and we know it. What is to be done in order to procure a further staggering of hours, which must be done unless we are to have complete chaos at peak hours?
    Mr. Watkinson: I quite agree with my hon. Friend that we must have more staggering of hours at rush periods for the sake of the London travelling public. That is exactly what I am going to discuss with the Rush Hours Committee, which has already done good work. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this matter, because the more publicity given to it the better.
    Mr. Ernest Davies: Would not the Minister agree that the only further economies which can be brought about in London Transport are by reducing peak hours travel, and that, therefore, it is essential that there should be an increase in the staggering of working hours? Will he not give serious consideration to introducing compulsory staggering of hours where it can be done without too much inconvenience?
    Mr. Watkinson: I will certainly look at the suggestion, which is, perhaps, one of the things I might discuss with the Rush Hours Committee, but it must be quite voluntary.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the cuts already in operation in some areas throughout London and the environments of London have resulted in buses being available for passengers somewhat infrequently? Does he not realise that not only are the busmen prevented from receiving what they regard as a reasonable wage, but that
    1266
    passengers throughout the London area are also being inconvenienced? Cannot something be done about it?
    Mr. Watkinson: What I do realise is that if we are ever to stop inflation and if there is to be a settlement of the kind advocated by the Industrial Court, the cost of it has to be absorbed and not passed on to the traffic.

  RAILWAYS

    Pensions
    Dr. D. Johnsonasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will state the actual number of British Railways superannuitants who received new money as a result of the 1956 award; and what was the actual cost to the British Transport Commission of this award.
    Mr. Nugent: About 14,300 additional persons were awarded pension supplements under the Commission's 1956 scheme at an annual cost of nearly £400,000.
    Dr. Johnson: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is still a serious feeling of hardship concerning this award in 1956? Will he not represent to the Commission that many of these annuitants are of advanced years and will no longer be able to benefit from any further action unless it is taken promptly?
    Mr. Nugent: I think the Commission is well aware of the difficulties of these retired persons, but the Commission's problem is to equate the difficulties of the annuitants with the burden at present falling upon the taxpayer because of the Commission's deficit.
    Dr. King: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the increase he granted, although meagre and limited in scope, is very much appreciated by the super-annuitants? Will he continue to make representations to the British Transport Commission to adjust these tiny pensions to the rising cost of living?
    Mr. Nugent: I must point out to the hon. Gentleman that we did not grant the increases. It is for the Commission to judge what can be granted. I think the Commission is well aware of the difficulties of these people, and, within its very limited means, when there is this big deficit in its accounts, it does what it can.

    MINISTER OF CIVIL DEFENCE
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he will consider appointing a Minister of Civil Defence.
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): I have been asked to reply.
    No, Sir. My right hon. Friend considers that nothing would be gained, and a great deal might be lost, by altering the present arrangements. In addition to his direct responsibilities under the Civil Defence Act, 1948, the Home Secretary is responsible for co-ordinating the defence plans of all the civil agencies of Government.
    Mr. Hughes: Could the Deputy Prime Minister say which of the hopeless incompetents in the Government is responsible for the situation in which there is to be the evacuation of the population of London into a missile area? Is it not time that somebody looked seriously at the interests of the civil population of this country, as against the people who have formed themselves into a suicide club?
    Mr. Butler: I cannot accept the hon. Member's interpretation either of the intelligence of the Government or the plans which he designates, and which I cannot recognise. In so far as a Minister is responsible, I am responsible as Home Secretary, and if the hon. Gentleman wishes to put any particular questions to me, I shall be only too glad to discuss them with him.

    NEW MEMBER SWORN
    Mary Agnes McAlister, for Glasgow, Kelvingrove.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings of Committee of Ways and Means exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]

RENT ACT, 1957 (AMENDMENT) (UNFIT HOUSES)
3.32 p.m.
Mr. J. A. Sparks: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Rent Act, 1957, so that in general the rent of a dwelling-house, which is unfit for human habitation and accordingly included in proposals submitted to the Minister of Housing and Local Government under section one of the Housing Repairs and Rents Act, 1954, shall not exceed the gross rateable value; to make corresponding adjustments in cases where the tenant of such a dwelling-house is responsible for some or all repairs or the landlord is responsible for internal decorative repairs; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid.
Section 1 of the Housing, Repairs and Rents Act, 1954, placed a responsibility upon all local authorities to notify to the Minister of Housing and Local Government, within twelve months of the passing of that Act, all dwellings within their areas which are unfit for human habitation and to suggest proposals for dealing with them. Local authorities have submitted to the Minister proposals showing how they propose to deal with a large number of unfit dwellings. Hon. Members will find, in Command Paper 9593. "Slum Clearance", dated November, 1955, the details submitted to the Minister by local authorities. Each local authority is shown separately, indicating how many unfit or slum dwellings are in its area and what it proposes to do about clearing them.
In that document, it is shown that for England and Wales there are 847,112 unfit houses, that is, houses incapable of being made fit for human habitation at reasonable expense. The complaint I have to make is that under the Rent Act these slums will carry the highest range of rent increases, but the enforcible repairs upon them will be of the lowest minimum first-aid standard. It is important to understand what really is an unfit house. To be included in this return, the house must be incapable of being made fit for human habitation at reasonable cost.
The tenants of these slum houses are unable to insist that the houses in which they live shall be made fit for human habitation. That is because the certificate of disrepair granted by local authorities—which is the only lever that a tenant

1269
can use to enforce repairs—is valid only provided it contains items which are not unreasonable in regard to cost in relation to the house and the certificate of disrepair must have regard to the age, character and locality of the dwelling.
All these are slum dwellings, old, lacking modern conveniences, and in poor localities. To make them fit would impose unreasonable cost on the landlord and, because unreasonable cost would be incurred, a certificate of disrepair to make them habitable would fail if the landlord took the matter to court. The landlord can claim his full 2⅓ gross value in rent, but expenditure is limited to first-aid standards. I readily agree that if it could be shown that those 847,000 slum dwellings were to be cleared within five years my case would be somewhat weakened by that event.
What progress has been made in clearing these slums? Hon. Members may find that in the Housing Return for 31st December, 1957, and see, in Table VI, under the heading "Clearance Areas," the rate of progress which has been made in clearing these slums. It must be noted that local authorities can do nothing about the slums until the Minister approves of action being taken and in three years all that the Minister has approved for clearance is 81,626 houses. In addition, local authorities have acquired, by voluntary agreements, 5,230, so that altogether there are 86,856 houses which have been approved for clearance. Those figures include a certain number of houses which are fit. They are included in clearance areas with unfit houses. About 10 per cent. are fit houses which have to be cleared because they are in clearance areas.
Nevertheless, I want to give the Minister the benefit of these figures and to accept all those houses as being unfit houses approved by him for clearance. It is a yearly clearance average of 28,900 in the first three years. How does that compare with the total of 847,000 in the returns to the Minister submitted by local authorities? At that rate it will take twenty-nine years to clear the slums of England and Wales. Hon. Members opposite talk a great deal about clearing slums, but they should remember that at their rate of progress it will take twenty-nine years.
1270
It is, therefore, unreasonable to expect that tenants of these dwellings, many of whom will have to live in them for a long time, should be called upon to pay the maximum increases of rent and to have no power, legally or otherwise, to insist that the dwellings should be made fit for human habitation.
It is because of this weakness which appears in the Rent Act that I wish to make an amendment to the amount of money which slum landlords can claim in rent. In view of the condition of these slum dwellings, the conditions in which the tenants of them have to live and their inability to insist upon the dwellings being made fit for human habitation, I think that the maximum rent which should be allowable to a landlord of such a house is the gross rateable value and no more. I therefore ask the leave of the House to introduce this Bill to make that amendment.
3.42 p.m.
Mr. A. E. Cooper: I rise to invite the House to oppose the Motion. It seems that we are now to traverse the whole of the proceedings of the Committee stage of the Rent Act, although those proceedings have since been enacted and are now the law of the land.
This matter was the subject of an Amendment which was discussed on Tuesday, 5th February, 1957, as reported in column 494 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of Standing Committee A. On that occasion the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) deployed fully all the arguments in support of the proposal, and he will hardly be surprised if the arguments in rebuttal today are substantially the same as they were on that occasion.
They are four. The first is that his proposal would be an unworkable amendment of the Act. What local authorities submitted to the Minister and what he approved were, first, an estimate of the number of unfit houses and, secondly, the number of these with which they proposed to deal in five years. The programme was in terms of total numbers, not individual identifiable houses. Some local authorities based their estimates on lists compiled by detailed inspections, but not all of them did so, and the Minister certainly did not approve proposals in terms of identifiable houses.

1271
Even if the proposal were workable, it is undesirable. As the hon. Member said, there are 847,000 unfit houses in England and Wales, as estimated by the local authorities. Local authorities hope to be able to demolish 375,000 during the first five years but, regrettably, many others may have to remain for periods of from ten to fifteen years.
The hon. Member has made play with the comparatively slow progress which is being made in slum clearance under this Government, but I should like him to compare that rate of progress with the negligible progress which was made under the Labour Government. Had we succeeded in clearing only one slum house it would have been better than anything which the Labour Party did.
If the landlord is prepared to keep these houses in repair while they must still be used, why not give him the rent with which to do so? To restrict the rent to once gross value—that is, the 1939 level—even when the landlord keeps the house in repair, means that the landlord cannot and will not do repairs. The proposal, therefore, condemns these tenants to live in houses which the landlord is given no inducement to keep in repair.
Thirdly, the proposals which give the total number of unfit houses are based merely on a preliminary survey. If the houses are subsequently put in an area for compulsory purchase or made subject to a clearance order, the landlord has a right of appeal against the condemnation of his property. [HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."] To restrict the rent
at the stage when the house is merely in a preliminary list compiled by the local authority is unfair.
Mr. Harry Randall: Full stop.
Mr. Cooper: The hon. Member's proposal is also unnecessary. If the house is in a clearance order, or is subject to any other statutory action for unfitness, that is a bar to any subsequent notice of rent increase.
Since the Rent Act received the Royal Assent the Labour Party has used all means in its power, both in the House and outside, to frustrate the will of Parliament. Its action in the House has had the effect of encouraging small landlords to try to sell their houses rather than offer new tenancies. The result has been misery and hardship. It appears that it is the desire of the Labour Party to see people in the streets. Our task is to frustrate their knavish tricks.
The record of the Labour Party in slum clearance is deplorable. It has never been interested in the subject. This Motion will persuade the outside world to say that the Opposition are developers of slums and apostles of mediocrity.
Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
The House divided: Ayes 189, Noes 261.

Division No. 71.]

AYES

[3.48 p.m.

Ainsley, J. W.

Brown, Thomas (Inoe)

Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

Albu, A. H.

Burke, W. A.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J, C.

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Burton, Miss F. E.

Edelman, M.

Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Callaghan, L. J.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

Awbery, S. S.

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

Bacon, Miss Alice

Champion, A. J.

Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

Balrd, J.

Chapman, W. D.

Fletcher, Eric

Balfour, A.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Clunie, J.

George, Lady Megan Lloyd(Car'then)

Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

Coldrick, W.

Gibson, C. W.

Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

Benson, Sir George

Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

Greenwood, Anthony

Beswick, Frank

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Cronin, J. D.

Grey, C. F.

Blackburn, F.

Cullen, Mrs. A.

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Blenkinsop, A.

Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

Hannan, W.

Blyton, W. R.

Darling, George (Hillsborough)

Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

Boardman, H.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

Hastings, Sir

Bowles, F. G.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Hayman, F. H.

Boyd, T. C.

Deer, G.

Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

Braddook, Mrs. Elizabeth

Diamond, John

Herbison, Miss M.

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

Dodds, N. N.

Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

Holman, P.

Mann, Mrs. Jean

Short, E. W.

Holmes, Horace

Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

Shurmer, P. L. E.

Houghton, Douglas

Mason, Roy

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Hoy, J. H.

Mellish, R. J.

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Mikardo, Ian

Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

Mitchison, G. R.

Skeffington, A. M.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Monslow, W.

Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

Hunter, A. E.

Moody, A. S.

Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

Hynd, H. (Accrington)

Mort, D. L.

Sorensen, R. W.

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Mulley, F. W.

Steele, T.

Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

Stonehouse, John

Janner, B.

Oliver, G. H.

Stones, W. (Consett)

Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

Oram, A. E.

Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

Jeger, George (Goole)

Oswald, T.

Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

Johnson, James (Rugby)

Owen, W. J.

Sylvester, G. O.

Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech(Wakefield)

Paget, R. T.

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Parker, J.

Timmons, J.

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Paton, John

Tomney, F.

Jones, T, W. (Merioneth)

Pearson, A.

Usborne, H. C.

Kenyon, C.

Pentland, N.

Viant, S. P.

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Plummer, sir Leslie

Watkins, T. E.

King, Dr. H. M.

Popplewell, E.

Weitzman, D.

Lawson, G. M.

Prentice, R. E.

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Lewis, Arthur

Probert, A. R.

west, D. G.

Lipton, Marcus

Proctor, W. T.

White, Mrs. Eirene (E, Flint)

Logan, D. G.

Pryde, D. J.

Wigg, George

McAlister, Mrs. Mary

Randall, H. E.

Willey, Frederick

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Rankin, John

Williams, David (Neath)

McCann, J.

Reeves, J.

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

MacColl, J. E.

Reid, William

Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

McGhee, H. G.

Rhodes, H.

Winterbottom, Richard

McInnes, J.

Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

McLeavy, Frank

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Woof, R. E.

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

Mahon, Simon

Royle, C.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Mr. Sparks and Mr. Wheeldon.

NOES

Agnew, Sir Peter

Carr, Robert

Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

Aitken, W. T.

Cary, Sir Robert

Freeth, Denzil

Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

Channon, Sir Henry

Gammans, Lady

Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

Chichester-Clark, R.

Garner-Evans, E. H.

Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

Cole, Norman

Gibson-Watt, D.

Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

Glover, D.

Arbuthnot, John

Cooke, Robert

Glyn, Col. Richard H.

Armstrong, C. W.

Cooper-Key, E. M.

Godber, J. B.

Ashton, H.

Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan

Atkins, H. E.

Corfield, Capt. F. V.

Goodhart, Philip

Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

Gough, C. F. H.

Baldwin, A. E.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Gower, H. R.

Barber, Anthony

Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

Graham, Sir Fergus

Barlow, Sir John

Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

Grant, W. (Woodside)

Barter, John

Currie, G. B. H.

Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

Baxter, Sir Beverley

Davidson, Viscountess

Green, A.

Beamish, Col. Tufton

Davies,Rt.Hon.Clement(Montgomery)

Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

Deedes, W. F.

Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Gurden, Harold

Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Bidgood, J. C.

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

Biggs-Davison, J. A.

Drayson, G. B.

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Bingham, R. M.

du Cann, E. D. L.

Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

Bishop, F. P.

Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

Black, C. W.

Duncan, Sir James

Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

Boothby, Sir Robert

Duthie, W. S.

Hay, John

Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

Ecclcs, Rt. Hon. Sir David

Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Elliott,R.W.(Ne'castle upon Tyne,N.)

Hesketh, R. F.

Braine, B. R.

Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Erroll, F. J.

Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

Brooman-White, R. C.

Farey-Jones, F. W.

Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

Fell, A.

Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

Bryan, P.

Finlay, Graeme

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

Fisher, Nigel

Hirst, Geoffrey

Butcher, Sir Herbert

Fletcher-Cooke, C

Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

Butler,Rt.Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden)

Fort, R.

Holland-Martin, C. J.

Campbell, Sir David

Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

Holt, A. F.

1274

1275

Hope, Lord John

MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

Hornby, R. P.

Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

Sharples, R. C.

Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

Shepherd, William

Horobin, Sir Ian

Maddan, Martin

Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

Horsburgh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

Soames, Christopher

Howard, John (Test)

Markham, Major Sir Frank

Spearman, Sir Alexander

Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Speir, R. M.

Hurd, A. R.

Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.)

Mathew, R.

Stanley, Capt. Hon, Richard

Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)

Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

Stevens, Geoffrey

Hyde, Montgomery

Mawby, R. L.

Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

Storey, S.

Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

Moore, Sir Thomas

Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Studholme, Sir Henry

Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Nabarro, G. D. N.

Summers, Sir Spencer

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Nairn, D. L. S.

Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

Neave, Alrey

Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

Joseph, Sir Keith

Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

Teeling, W.

Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

Nicolson,N.(B'n'm'th,E. & Chr'ch)

Temple, John M.

Kaberry, D.

Nugent, G. R. H.

Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

Kerby, Capt. H. B.

Oakshott, H. D.

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Kerr, Sir Hamilton

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

Thompson, Lt.-Cdr.R.(Croydon, S.)

Lambton, Viscount

Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N)

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Osborne, C.

Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

Langford-Holt, J. A.

Page, R. G.

Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

Leather, E. H. C.

Partridge, E.

Tilney, John (Wavertree)

Leavey, J. A.

Peyton, J. W. W.

Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

Leburn, W. G.

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. A. E. H.

Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

Vickers, Miss Joan

Legn, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

Pitman, I. J.

Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

Pitt, Miss E. M.

Wade, D. W.

Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

Pott, H. P.

Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

Linstead, Sir H. N.

Powell, J. Enoch

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

Longden, Gilbert

Profumo, J. D.

Wall, Patrick

Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

Ramsden, J. E.

Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

Redmayne, M.

Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

Remnant, Hon. P.

Whitelaw, W. S. I

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Renton, D. L. M.

Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

McAdden, S. J.

Ridsdale, J. E.

Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

Macdonald, Sir Peter

Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

Wills, G. (Bridgwater)

Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

Robertson, Sir David

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

Wood, Hon. R.

Maclay, Rt, Hon. John

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Woollam, John Victor

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

Roper, Sir Harold

McLean, Neil (Inverness)

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

Russell, R. S.

Mr. A. E. Cooper and

Mr. Gresham Cooke.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL
  Read a Second time and committed to a Committee of the whole House.
  Committee Tomorrow.

  AGRICULTURE BILL
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [18th March], That the Bill be now read a Second time. —[Mr. Hare.]
  Question again proposed.
  3.58 p.m.
  Mr. Thomas Fraser: We have just disposed of a proposed amendment to the Rent Act, which amendment the country clearly wants, although the House has rejected it. We turn to some other proposed alterations in rent legislation and in security of tenure, amendments which the country does not want, and we shall find at the end of the day that Members on either side of the House will be voting in the Lobby opposite to that in which they chose to vote a few moments ago.
  I listened to most of the debate yesterday. It was an amazing debate. All of us know that there are many Members on that side of the House who do not want the 1947 and 1948 Acts amended in the way proposed in this Bill, yet not one hon. Member on the Government side muttered any criticism of what is proposed in the Measure that the Government have brought forward.
  I believe that if Government back benchers could have considered those proposals amongst themselves, the view of the Country Landowners' Association and the National Farmers' Union would have prevailed, and the Bill would have been defeated tonight, but the Government Whips are so effective that not one hon. Member opposite, apparently, will venture any criticism of Her Majesty's present advisers. This is a deplorable state of affairs. This is one of the reasons for so much public comment about the deterioration in the freedom of debate: and the standards of Parliament.
  It is appropriate that I should, at this juncture, protest against Scotland being
  1278
  dealt with in this Bill at all. First, it is worth saying that the Secretary of State knows full well that he no longer represents the majority of the Scottish people——
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: The majority of Scottish Members are not behind the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Fraser: I have been seeking to impress on the Secretary of State and on his supporters that the Government no longer have a majority of the seats in Scotland. Since the introduction of my hon. Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Mrs. McAlister), a few minutes ago, the balance of the parties in Scotland is now 35 Conservatives and their supporters, 35 Labour Members, and one Liberal Member. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman consulted the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) before introducing this Measure, because it is that hon. Member who now holds the balance of power in Scotland.
  By this Bill, the Secretary of State proposes to amend two or three important Scottish Bills. He proposes to repeal seven or eight Sections of the 1948 Act by a subsection in an English Bill. Clause 1 (1) deals with England and Wales, and subsection (2) deals with Scotland. Clause 2 deals with both Scotland and England, amending English and Scottish legislation. Subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 3 apply to England and Wales, while subsection (3) merely modifies this new policy and applies it to Scotland.
  This is no way at all to deal with Scottish legislation. The legislation here being amended was contained in peculiarly Scottish Acts of Parliament. We were much criticised between 1945 and 1951 for the volume of legislation we put through, but, even then, we found it possible to treat Scotland with respect. The legislative proposals and provisions in the two countries are different. That is why we have to have these Scottish application Clauses in a Bill like this. If we are to legislate separately and differently for Scotland, it should be done in a separate Bill, instead of lacing these proposals into a Measure that, for the most part, is seen to be applicable to England and Wales.
  Another point of some importance is to know, if this Bill goes to a Standing Committee—which, I suppose, is not unlikely—how many Scottish Members of

  1279
  Parliament the Secretary of State imagines will be able to play a part in the proceedings there. During the Committee stage of the Acts of Parliament that are by this Bill being amended, they were before the whole of the Scottish Standing Committee, with every Scottish Member of Parliament enabled to play his part in the shaping of Scottish legislation, but by dealing with Scottish legislation in this way the Secretary of State is denying to all but two—or, at most, three—Members of Parliament on either side any opportunty of studying the details of Scottish legislation.
  That is not good enough, and I should like to know from the Secretary of State why he feels obliged to have Scottish legislation introduced and passed through Parliament in this way. Why does he not frankly bring forward all the legislative changes he proposes for Scotland, and let Scottish Members deal with them as they were able, about ten years ago, to deal with the law that is now being amended?
  While I listened to the debate yesterday, I asked myself many times whether the Government still regard agriculture as being important. I wonder whether the Government and their supporters believe that it is still important that our land should be well used, and not misused or abused? I well remember, when the legislation that is here being altered was going through the House about ten years ago. the speeches made on both sides of the House about the need to construct this new agricultural policy on the twin pillars of stability and efficiency.
  As a matter of fact, I used those words, and heard them, so often that I got a bit tired of them. None the less, it was true that we built our agricultural policy on those twin pillars. This Bill deliberately sets out to remove one of them. Small wonder that the farmers are worried.
  The farmers are worried because, despite anything that Ministers or hon. Members opposite may say, the farmers remember what happened in 1921. The Minister yesterday said that the farmers have nothing to fear because, after all, we have the guarantees written in Part I of the 1947 Act, buttressed, as he insisted, by the 1957 Act. But, of course, in
  1280
  Statute, given by a Government composed of right hon. Gentlemen not different in political outlook from those now occupying the Treasury Bench. In December, 1920, farmers had their prices guaranteed for four years, and that involved subsidies estimated, at that time, at £30 million a year. Seven months later, in July, 1921, that was all thrown overboard.
  What was the reason given then? I have been reading through those debates once again and it is interesting to read the then Minister of Agriculture saying:
  "I realise that it is a very serious matter for the Government to reverse a policy so recently adopted."
  And he went on:
  "We have been impelled by absolute necessity, by the financial situation, to take this step."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th July, 1921; Vol. 144, c. 63.]
  Incidentally, the right hon. Gentleman went on to blame the miners' strike for having caused the financial difficulties of the country and, therefore, making the Bill necessary, but he urged—and this is important—that the three things that must always go together were wages boards, control of cultivation and guaranteed prices, but said that guaranteed prices were not possible with world prices falling rapidly.
  Those were the arguments used by a Tory Minister of Agriculture in 1921. The farmers remember the effect of what was done then: millions of acres going out of cultivation, hundreds, if not thousands, of farmers going bankrupt, and hundreds of thousands of workers driven off the land. They are wondering, now that the Government are removing these efficiency provisions, or what were called by the Minister in 1921 "the control of cropping", whether the Government will not be driven by the same kind of public opinion to follow the same course as that adopted by their predecessors in 1921 whenever the next financial crisis comes. That is what the farmers fear, and I should have thought that they have much reason to fear it.
  But if home food production is now to be allowed to decline—I can only assume that that is the reason for this—it is no good saying that it is expected that this kind of freedom, that this removal of much of Part II of the 1947 Act and much of Part II of the Scottish

  1281
  Act—will lead to increased production, and, at the same time, to argue that it is a good thing to have those powers in time of war or in time of food shortage.
  Why do we have those powers in times of war or food shortage? Is it not to get the best production from our soil? I should have thought so. If one now seeks to justify taking away those disciplinary powers, one can only do it by agreeing that there is no longer a need for an optimum food production. But if food production is to be allowed to decline, are we to import more, and if so from where? What are we going to use for currency? We understand that from time to time the Government get into great difficulties with the balance of payments.
  I have been looking at the cost of food imports in recent years, and I will merely give the figure for 1957. I believe the total cost of food imports in 1957 was £1,412 million. That is quite a heavy bill. The total value of exports of manufactured goods from Britain amounted to £2,754 million. It took more than half the income we got from the export of manufactured goods to buy the food that we imported in 1957. If we allow our food production to fall back by £200 million or £300 million, that is presumably £200 million or £300 million that we have got to spend on buying more from overseas. Are we to be allowed to do it?
  Mr. James H. Hoy: The unemployed do not eat so much.
  Mr. Fraser: I should have thought that the proposition which I have put forward is one to which the Government should pay considerable attention. The maintenance of a high level of home production is not only desirable from the point of view of the farmers, and is in the interests not only of the husbandman but also of the townsman, too. There is no guarantee that the townsman would continue to enjoy the measure of prosperity that he does if his country cousin found that his purchasing power had been much reduced, if his country cousin were in the doldrums.
  I should think that it goes without saying that with the increased mechanisation of agriculture and the increasing use of fertilisers, etc., prosperity in agriculture brings much trade and industrial
  1282
  activity to our great urban areas. Therefore, the townsman would be very worried if he were led to believe that the prosperity of the countryside as enjoyed for a number of years was about to go. The townsman wants to see the conditions retained that will permit of the countryside being prosperous.
  Of course, the townsman does not complain that nearly £300 million a year is spent on subsidies. In Scotland alone we spend about £40 million in subsidies. But it is not so certain that the townsman will continue to be so willing as he has been in the past to give this money if he is not assured that the land which he is helping to keep in good heart is being properly used and is not being misused. Again, that seems to me to be so obvious that it hardly needs saying at all.
  Important as these considerations are for the United Kingdom as a whole, I suggest to the Secretary of State that they are even more important for Scotland. Scotland is more self-sufficient in food production than is the United Kingdom as a whole. Scotland produces 95 per cent. of her total consumption of beef. The United Kingdom as a whole produces only 33 per cent. of her total consumption of mutton and lamb but Scotland produces 200 per cent. of her consumption. The United Kingdom produces 70 per cent. of her pig meat consumption, whereas Scotland produces 100 per cent. of her consumption.
  If there is to be any decline in agricultural production, if there is to be a worsening of the economic prosperity of the countryside, Scotland will suffer more than the rest of the United Kingdom. That is why Scots people feel so strongly about this Measure, and it is an added reason why the Secretary of State might have permitted Scottish Members of Parliament to consider a Scottish Bill rather than have these provisions wrapped up in a Bill which will be seen outside the House to be an English Bill.
  I think that there can be no doubt that the county agricultural executive committees will have so little to do if the Bill ever becomes law that there will be no justification for their existence at all. We in Scotland have 11 such committees. In eight years up to 1956–I do not have the figures for 1957; as far as I know, they have not yet been published—the 11 agricultural executive

  1283
  committees in Scotland had satisfactorily disposed of 1,380 husbandry cases and 679 estate management cases.
  Only last year the Report of the Department of Agriculture boasted about this achievement, about the wonderful work that had been done by the 11 executive committees in Scotland. But, of course, their activities have become less in recent years in accordance with the instructions issued by Ministers. At the end of 1953, 107 warning notices were in operation in respect of husbandry and 13 in respect of estate management.
  I should interpolate here that we do not have supervision orders in Scotland; we have warning notices which are issued by the executive committees to the farmers and landowners who seem to be in need of some help and guidance. We have a different procedure from that in England—which, incidentally, is another reason why we should be allowed to discuss these matters in a Scottish Bill, because our warning notices are in many respects different from the supervision orders in England and Wales. If one talks about warning notices in Scotland, and English Members talk about supervision orders, there is likely to be a lot of confusion created among hon. Members who try to take an intelligent interest in the debate.
  At the end of 1954 there were 98 warning notices issued in respect of husbandry and 14 in respect of estate management. At the end of 1955 the figures were 63 and 15 respectively, and at the end of 1956 the figures were 58 and 17. One sees that the notices in respect of husbandry have been coming down all the time while those in respect of estate management have been going up. That is very interesting. My right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) will not mind my saying that that shows, when we come to the end of 1956, that although we have only 11 agricultural executive committees in Scotland we still have more warning notices outstanding than there were supervision orders outstanding in England and Wales. The Minister of Agriculture seems to have got his intention across more effectively to the executive committees in England than has the Secretary of State in Scotland. But, in any case, there is no one in Scotland who
  1284
  would deny that the 11 agricultural committees have assisted greatly in bringing about our tremendously increased agricultural production in Scotland.
  My mind goes back to the many meetings I had with farmers, sometimes under the auspices of the A.E.C.s and sometimes under the auspices of the N.F.U., when tribute was paid to this kind of machinery. The then Government, in particular my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley, was praised for having taken agriculture out of politics, or taken the politics out of agriculture. They could not say too much in praise of my right hon. Friend and the then agricultural policy. In recent years, on the other hand, agriculture has been thrust back into the cockpit of party politics by the doctrinaire politicians who now adorn the Treasury Bench. [An HON. MEMBER: "Adorn?"] I do not complain much of the use of the word "adorn". It is not their appearance I object to, but their politics.
  The figures I have quoted show quite clearly that the executive committees in Scotland, right until the end of 1956, had been doing a very useful job. On average, each of these 11 committees has handled over 100 husbandry cases and nearly 60 estate management cases. These cases were handled by men in the locality, landowners, farmers, farm workers, people who knew the farms, knew the farmers, and were able to be of great help to them.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: And they do not object.
  Mr. Fraser: They do not object to what they call kindly control by the committees. But all that is thrown overboard by the Government's Bill.
  From time to time, we have had references to cases such as that of Lady Garbett. But we have never had any "Lady Garbetts" in Scotland; at least, if we ever have, no one has ever shed any tears about them. There has been no public tear shedding in Scotland that someone had to go from a farm in which he or she had lived and worked—or rather, not worked—for a number of years.
  There has been no well-informed criticism of the committee's disciplinary powers or the Secretary of State's powers

  1285
  in Scotland. We have never had any Crichel Downs. Why is the Secretary of State so anxious to surrender his powers and the powers which are given effect to by the executive committees, to the satisfaction of the agricultural community? He will, no doubt, tell us in due course. I hope he has a better explanation than the one the Minister of Agriculture had to offer yesterday.
  Who wants the Bill in Scotland? It is not the farmers. It is not the National Farmers' Union. The National Farmers' Union has told the Government, the Government back benchers, the Opposition and, indeed, all Scotland, where it stands. I wanted to read a quotation I had marked in the Press notice of the National Farmers' Union, but, since it is obviously something not told to one party but to all Scotland, and time presses, I will pass it over, except for one sentence. It is certainly well understood that the National Farmers' Union strongly objects to the Bill. The N.F.U said:
  "Criticism of the present system by the constitutional theorists and the emotional prejudice created by one or two much publicised cases should not be allowed to bring about the abolition of arrangements which had, in practice, worked with remarkable equity and effectiveness in the national interest."
  Is that proposition by the National Farmers' Union true or untrue? It is, of course, true. That being so, why should the Secretary of State put Scotland in the Bill? I do not want the Bill for England and Wales, either—my hon. Friends will not misunderstand me—but my duty is to ascertain from the Secretary of State why he, as the Minister responsible for agriculture in Scotland, has insisted upon making these legislative changes there.
  Where do the Government's Scottish back benchers stand in these matters? I called to mind some of the speeches made ten years ago when the Agriculture (Scotland) Bill was passing through the House. I should like to quote something said by the hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) on 1st December, 1947:
  "The basis of the Bill is a simple proposition. Every farmer or landowner who owns or occupiers a piece of the precious land of this country must manage it, work it and farm it in the most efficient way. I accept that principle without any conditions at all. I think it is a sound principle which every sensible man must accept; but it is not a new principle."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1947; Vol. 445, c. 74–5.]
  1286
  The hon. Gentleman went on to tell the House that, as agent, as he put it, for Lloyd George, back in 1927, he had brought forward exactly the same kind of proposals. He said that his plan at that time, in 1927, included the appointment of committees to exercise control over landowners and farmers. He accepted this kind of control as a principle. It was nothing to do with the war years, food shortage or anything else. He had propounded it in 1927 and regretted that it had taken twenty years before effect had been given to it in permanent legislation. I wonder where the hon. Gentleman stands today, and into which Lobby he will go to vote later.
  I see the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Angus (Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley) in his place. In the course of the same debate, he said:
  "On the other hand, there might be the view of those hon. Members who, like myself, accept, the fact that if we are going to give guaranteed prices and assured markets to Scottish farmers, we may reasonably impose in return such guidance and control as will ensure their efficiency."
  There is nothing there about the food shortage or rationing.
  The hon. Gentleman went on:
  "Those of us who hold these views recognise that this Bill is just about as much an agreed Measure as is likely to be found this side of paradise."
  I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman knows that those proposals, when they were enacted, continued to be agreed until now, except by those whom the National Farmers' Union described as the constitutional theorists and the sufferers from emotional prejudice.
  Later in his speech the hon. Gentleman said:
  "If public money is to be spent on a vast scale—and it seems that this will be likely —we should at least know whether we are getting value for our money."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1947; Vol. 445. c. 83–91.]
  Where does the hon. Gentleman stand today?
  When I listened to those speeches, I thought that both the hon. Member for Fife, East, and the hon. Member for North Angus were enunciating a principle. It sounded like it and read like it. It had nothing to do with the fact that we were passing through a period of food shortage. Do they stand by that principle? We shall find out in due

  1287
  course. If we were not dealing with principles in 1948, and if this kindly control by the agricultural executive committees was merely an expedient, as hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to be arguing yesterday, can the same be said of the price guarantees? Are these an expedient too? In 1921, the control and the guarantees together were enunciated as a principle, and when the controls went the Minister of Agriculture had to come to the House in a few months and say, "The price controls must go as well, because these two things have to go together". Has all that changed?
  What about the owner-occupier? All that the hon. Member for North Angus said in 1947–48 in respect of the use of land generally applies to the owner-occupiers in like manner as it does to the tenant or the owner of land where there is a contract of tenancy. Yesterday, we heard a lot about leaving owners and tenant farmers to work out the best arrangements that they could to return to the old relationship, but it went on, and the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd), who made the last speech from the Government side yesterday, said that he still adhered to all that he said in 1947 about the rules of good husbandry and good estate management—the code of good conduct and the code of good management in agriculture.
  It may be that under the Bill the tenant farmer, if he dares, will be able to compain to the Land Court in Scotland that the owner has not been fulfilling his responsibilities of good estate management. It may well be that the owner, in turn, will complain to the Land Court about the tenant farmer not fulfilling his obligations of good husbandry. What happens in the case of 40 per cent. of the farms where the owner and the occupier are one? The rules of good husbandry and good estate management which were written into the Agriculture (Scotland) Act, 1948, have been repealed by this Bill so far as the owner-occupier is concerned, because there is no one left to impose them.
  Is that what the Government intend? Do the rules of good husbandry and good estate management apply only to 60 per cent. of the farms now, and have they been scrapped so far as the owner-occupier is concerned? Whether that was the intention, I do not know, but
  1288
  that is certainly the effect of the Bill. Is it the Secretary of State's intention that the owner-occupier of a farm in Scotland should be free to misuse his land with impunity? Does he think that, if the owner-occupier is allowed to continue to misuse his land with impunity, the townsman will continue to be as willing as he has been in the past to subsidise him to the same extent?
  I do not believe that the Secretary of State thinks anything of the kind. He is getting ready, with his colleagues, to relieve the townsmen of the responsibility of taking a decision on that matter by themselves, thereby drastically curtailing the support given to agriculture.
  That is the position. It is a deplorable position so soon after the original Bill was passed in 1947. Perhaps the farmers and the taxpayers have taken too seriously the Government's declarations made by certain Ministers as a principle that subsidies should be given only to the people who need them. The Secretary of State has used that phrase—subsidies should be given only to the people who need them. I know that this was enunciated in reference to council tenants, but it sounds very much like the enunciation of a principle.
  Will the right hon. Gentleman now apply this principle in agriculture where the landowner or farmers are falling back in their estate management or their husbandry? Will he withhold the subsidies and say that they do not need them? Will he serve up new, elaborate machinery to enable them to do that? We wonder. Indeed, we wonder what he is getting in introducing the Bill at all.
  Clause 1 is objected to by everyone with whom I have had consultations and who is in the remotest way concerned with the well-being of Scottish agriculture. I cannot understand why the Secretary of State appended his name to a Bill with a Clause like Clause 1 in it. I do not see the need for Clause 2. Farmers, also, do not understand the need for it. There is no need to give fresh instructions to the arbiters in fixing rents. The Secretary of State will not get away with asserting that the increase in rents in recent years bears no relation to the increase in farmers' incomes. He knows better than anyone else in the House why that is. He knows full well that in many cases, as

  1289
  an alternative to increasing rents, in recent years Scottish landowners have transferred responsibility for fixed equipment to the tenants.
  The landowners have not been putting money into the farms at all; they have only been taking it out. Instead of putting in fresh capital and increasing the rents, they have come to an agreement with the tenant whereby the tenant will continue to pay the old rent and the tenant will make himself responsible for all the new fixed equipment and the repair and maintenance of such fixed equipment as there is at the time of making the agreement.
  If that is so—and it is—it is no good saying that the average increase in rents over the post-war years has been only 60 or 70 per cent. in so many cases. There could be no justification for an increase in rents. The owners have given up what responsibility they had for the maintenance of fixed equipment and have transferred it to the tenant. One would have to add to the rent paid by the tenant what the tenant has spent on the provision of fixed equipment to ascertain what the tenant is paying for the privilege of operating on any particular farm.
  Here we find shades of the Rent Act, which was discussed on the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) earlier this afternoon. The landowners of agricultural land are merely following the example set earlier by the landlords of dwelling-houses in Scotland. I would be interested to know whether the Secretary of State could tell us if he has any evidence as to why it is that the arbiters in Scotland have not been able to fix proper rents when they were obliged to fix rents properly payable. Why do they have to have further instruction from Parliament before they can arrive at a fair and proper rent? If the right hon. Gentleman has any evidence of the need for this change, I hope that he will take the opportunity of informing the House of it.
  Why should we have the relaxation in security of tenure for which Clause 3 provides? Is it necessary to give owners increased opportunities to get tenants out? That seems to be the effect and purpose of Clause 3. Yesterday, I heard the Minister of Agriculture say that this arrangement would provide opportunities for energetic young men, but he will have
  1290
  only as many new tenancies made available as he has evictions, and he may well find that energetic young farmers are evicted to make way for someone else with a deeper pocket.
  The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Hare)The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Hare)indicated dissent.
  Mr. Fraser: The Minister disagrees. How will he prevent a landowner from turning out a good, energetic, young tenant farmer and bringing in someone else?
  Mr. Hare: For the very good reason that the tribunal would not agree.
  Mr. Fraser: The Minister does not know that the Bill contains Clause 6, which applies to Scotland. Does he know the effect of Clause 6? The tribunal would not function under Clause 6.
  Mr. Hare: Will the hon. Gentleman let me answer?
  Mr. Fraser: I will let the right hon. Gentleman answer. I was merely helping him.
  Mr. Hare: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman reads the Bill with some care. Clause 6 deals with deaths. It has nothing to do with turning tenants out.
  Mr. Fraser: Clause 6 takes away the security of the tenant farmer and his family. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] Why says "Nonsense"? What is the purpose of Clause 6? I hope that the Secretary of State will tell us what its purpose is and what its effect will be. I say that its effect will be to take from the tenant farmer and his family the security which he has enjoyed until now. There is no tribunal which could protect —[Interruption.]—there seem to be a number of English Members who believe that there is some justification for Clause 6. It is interesting to note that the Minister of Agriculture, who was so ready to come to the defence of the Secretary of State, is now informing himself of the effect of Clause 6. He was advised by the noble Lord, the Joint Under-Secretary, that Clause 6 dealt with deaths. In fact, it deals with tenancies—although many tenants will die in consequence of Clause 6.
  The purpose of Clause 6 is to change the law of succession to holdings in Scotland—[HON. MEMBERS: "He has got it

  1291
  right at last."] I had it right before I started. It may be that hon. Members opposite are not aware that the principal reason for the high standard of husbandry in Scotland over the years—[HON. MEMBERS: "Twenty-one year leases."] It is nothing to do with leases, because more than half the tenant farmers in Scotland do not have leases. Perhaps hon. Members opposite do not know that. Most tenant farmers in Scotland take tenancies under contract of lease, but, when the lease expires, the tenant can remain under "tacit relocation"—I do not know what term is used south of the Border. It is estimated that at present 65 per cent. of the farm tenancies in Scotland are held on tacit relocation so that the families of tenant farmers can continue to enjoy security.
  I think that we might have had a school upstairs to instruct some hon. Members opposite, who ought to know better, what the purposes of the Bill are.
  Sir James Duncan Sir James Duncan (South Angus)indicated dissent.
  Mr. Fraser: The hon. Member for South Angus is shaking his head violently.
  Under the succession law of Scotland, a tenant could have bequeathed a tenancy to any person, but the purpose of Clause 6 is not merely to limit the bequest to a member of the family. It is to limit the bequest to a member of the family and to limit the bequest to a lease, even though only 35 per cent. of the tenant farmers in Scotland have leases, while 65 per cent. are in occupation under tacit relocation.
  The Secretary of State will agree that the reason for the high standard of husbandry in Scotland over the years has been that families have remained in tenancies for many generations without a lease being signed. We all know how the standard of husbandry on a farm runs down when a family quits on the expiry of a lease. That is common knowledge and the Secretary of State ought to know it.
  Under Clause 6, there will be evictions and new tenancies and new blood may come into the industry. However, it may not be good blood and the system may not improve the standard of husbandry. It may well be that the energetic young
  1292
  farmer, who has gone through college, who is a first-rate man, and who is working the farm of which his aged father or mother had been a tenant, will be given three months' notice to quit. There is no tribunal or land court which could adjudicate on such a case.
  Those will be the cases where the owners have decided to take advantage of the opportunities given to them by the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State should not complain if the landowners take advantage of the freedom which he is giving them, in the same way that he is complaining about landlords taking advantage of the freedom which he has given them under the Rent Act.
  The provisions of the Bill are disgraceful. No one with the interests of Scottish agriculture at heart wants these changes to be made. The Government have made these proposals in furtherance of what they like to describe as Tory freedom. It may be that the real intention is to enrich certain owners of agricultural land, even those who merely sit back and draw rents and who do not play their part in the rules of good estate management.
  The Secretary of State has no mandate in Scotland for the Bill. He has no right to introduce it, because at present he does not even have a majority in Scotland. Scotland wants nothing to do with the Bill. There is only one justification for it. That is that the Government are preparing the way for the repeal of the 1957 Act and Part I of the 1947 Act when the next financial crisis hits them. That is what the farmers of Scotland believe, and that is why they are casting their minds back to what a previous Tory Government did in 1921.
  4.50 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) has ranged very widely in his speech. I do not blame him for doing that. He was bound to do so, but it is difficult to decide how most effectively to deal with the different points which he raised. [Laughter.] I can deal with them effectively all right. It is a question of how most conveniently to deal with them, because the hon. Member jumped about a good deal. I think that the best thing to do is to stick more or less to the—[HON. MEMBERS: "The

  1293
  brief."]—order of the Bill and work through it.
  The hon. Member's main question, at the beginning of his speech, was: why did Scotland not have a separate Bill? This, of course, is a perennial problem with all matters which are common to England and Scotland, but which have some special Scottish application. We on this side of the House have argued this when we were in opposition.
  Mr. T. Fraser: When?
  Mr. Maclay: I remember doing it myself.
  Mr. Fraser: The right hon. Gentleman should give us an example.
  Mr. Maclay: I remember, for instance, that the New Towns Act, 1946, was a United Kingdom Measure with a very important Scottish part. A very odd way of dealing with the Scottish application was adopted, which I shall mention later.
  There is a problem of judgment as to what is the reasonable, proper and effective thing to do, consistent with the good working of Parliament, the avoidance of unnecessary duplication of debate and getting on with the business in the best way we can. There were certain possibilities with this subject. One was a completely separate Bill. If hon. Members will go through the Bill, as the hon. Member for Hamilton started to do, they will find that a great part of the discussion is common to both countries and that there would be a complete duplication of argument. Another possibility was a separate part of the Bill to deal with Scotland. That is a very clumsy proposition. It has been tried in the past, but it is not an effective method, except with certain Bills of which this is not one.
  Then there is the method which hon. Members opposite adopted with the New Towns Act, 1946, when they provided that Section 25 of that Act should have special application to Scotland. That Section occupies page after page of the Act and is most confusing to use and work. We concluded that the most effective and convenient method was that which we have employed in the Bill, whereby the application to Scotland appears at the end of each Clause where necessary. This is very easy to follow and to read. There are also one or two
  1294
  specific English Clauses and one or two specific Scottish Clauses. I believe that the decision of the House will be that our judgment was right in doing it in this way.
  I found the next point which the hon. Member for Hamilton made very difficult to follow. He went back to 1920 and 1921 and I was not at all clear why he took that leap into the past. We on this side of the House have been making it clear that in all our work, and particularly in the matter of agriculture, we are looking forward and not back. But if we must argue back to 1921 let us pick up one point; and I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) is not now in the Chamber.
  We heard a good deal in those days, and we have heard it since from hon. Members opposite, about the nationalisation of the land. Where do they stand today? What is the meaning of the intervention by the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) last night, when he said:
  "I am sure that the hon. Gentleman"—
  he was referring to one of my hon. Friends—
  "does not mean to be, but he is being most unfair to my right hon. Friend."—
  That is, to the right hon. Member for Don Valley—
  "My right hon. Friend has said that he does not think that this is the time for nationalisation of the land."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th March. 1958; Vol. 584, c. 1196.]
  What does that mean?
  Mr. Fraser: What it says.
  Mr. Maclay: Does the party opposite intend to nationalise the land? Let us get it clear.
  Mr. Frederick Willey: Really, the right hon. Gentleman ought to grow up. He knows that I clearly meant what I said—that
  "My right hon. Friend has said that he does not think that this is the time for nationalisation of the land."
  My right hon. Friend and I, and the rest of my hon. Friends, will keep an open mind. We have not a closed mind about agriculture, but we say that at present we do not think that there is a case for the nationalisation of land. That is Labour Party policy. It has been proclaimed time after time.
  Mr. Maclay: Therefore, it is clear that Labour Party policy is to nationalise the land at some time.
  Mr. Willey: The right hon. Gentleman does not only misconstrue what appears in the OFFICIAL REPORT, but what he just hears. How can I do anything with him? I have said that Labour Party policy is not to nationalise the land.
  Mr. Maclay: At this time.
  Mr. Willey: The right hon. Gentleman cannot commit his party till eternity. Even Tory die-hards are not as narrow as that. We have said that we will review agricultural policy in the light of circumstances, but we have said as clearly as we can that the Labour Party is not in favour of the nationalisation of land.
  Mr. Maclay: This is too serious to leave.
  Mr. Woodburn: Is it in order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to discuss anything that requires legislation?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I thought that we were doing our best to legislate now.
  Mr. Maclay: I desire only to get on to the Bill, but I felt that the hon. Member for Hamilton was clean away from the Bill and that this raised a very important point which we must really clear up once and for all.
  I am trying to grow up, and one of the purposes of growing up is to listen very carefully and try to hear precisely what is said. This growing-up process is not always easy. The hon. Member for Sunderland, North said at one time that Labour Party policy is not to nationalise the land——
  Mr. Woodburn: On a point of order. Is it in order to conduct a debate on the nationalisation of the land when we are dealing with a different Bill altogether?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think that that comes under the right hon. Gentleman's original question. He asked whether it was in order to discuss legislation. We are doing our best to legislate at the moment.
  Mr. Woodburn: On a point of order. With great respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that is not the same question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If Mr. Deputy-Speaker did not understand my question,
  1296
  I want to put it correctly. I accept the answer that we are discussing legislation at the moment, but is it in order to discuss hypothetical legislation when we are discussing a Bill that is now before the House?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: A Second Reading debate is very wide. It certainly would not be in order on Third Reading, but it is on Second Reading that the argument is developed.
  Mr. Maclay: We can clear up this matter quite easily with co-operation from the hon. Member for Sunderland, North. As I quoted him from HANSARD, he said:
  "My right hon. Friend has said that he does not think that this is the time for nationalisation of the land."
  In the intervention which he made just now, the hon. Member left out any reference to this not being the time, and he said that the Labour Party does not intend to nationalise the land. Could he clear up that point? Are words to the effect that "This is not the time", or "For the time being" in or out?
  Mr. Willey: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I should like to make it abundantly clear, though I really cannot believe that it is not already abundantly clear to him. He has had access to statements on party policy and the results of party conferences. I want to make it abundantly clear that the Labour Party is not in favour of the nationalisation of the land.
  Mr. Maclay: At any time?
  Mr. Willey: I said that we can speak only of the present. We are a democratic party, like any other party. We will continue to consider matters. All I can do is to assist the right hon. Gentleman and tell him quite explicitly and dogmatically that the Labour Party is not in favour of the nationalisation of land.
  Mr. Maclay: We have this on record. It includes the operative words, "Not at present", which, I take it, is the position. I am sorry to go into all this, but it happens to be highly relevant to agricultural policy for the whole country and for the future of the agricultural industry.
  The hon. Member for Hamilton did another curious thing. He dealt with Part II of the Bill at considerable length,

  1297
  and the only conclusion that I could reach from listening to him was that his view was that the excellent production and the excellent records achieved by farmers in the United Kingdom as a whole, and by farmers in Scotland in particular, in recent years were the result of fear of the use of the disciplinary powers which are available in Part II. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Really, that is what it sounded like.
  Mr. T. Fraser: If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that is what my speech sounded like, he is a bigger fool than I thought he was.
  Mr. Maclay: It is really no use accusing me of being what I may be—it is not for me to judge—merely to escape from an awkward position. I know that the hon. Gentleman is a great believer in the farmers of Scotland, but it sounded to me from what he said as if the real reason for our getting these good results was fear. I do not accept that for a minute, and I do not think that anybody else in Scotland does either.
  At a slightly later stage, the hon. Gentleman argued that the fact that we were repealing Part II cast the gravest doubts on our intentions about maintaining the 1957 long-term guarantees. There is no conceivable connection unless what the hon. Gentleman said is correct, that it is only fear which has produced the results that we have been getting.
  Mr. Woodburn: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that all this increase in production took place under the 1948 Act, as passed by this House? Whatever the conditions were, it took place under that Act. Can the right hon. Gentleman produce any reason, either supported by the farmers in Scotland or by anybody else in Scotland, that justifies altering the Act except the reason that the people in England want to alter theirs?
  Mr. Maclay: One can go on to all sorts of arguments which will widen the issue a great deal.
  Surely the reason why we have been getting these admirable results is due to a combination of the 1948 Act and, latterly, the 1957 long-term guarantees which are now becoming effective. It has really nothing to do with the disciplinary powers, and my right hon. Friend said as much yesterday when he went through
  1298
  the case in detail. I do not propose to go through the case in detail again, but the time has come when these powers should not be continued. They are not workable.
  I have some figures with which to meet the figures given by the hon. Member for Hamilton about the number of warning notices issued, and things like that. I do not really want to go into the figures because mine are not the same as his, but I think I know where the difference lies. I think that the figures used by the hon. Gentleman are based on those cases where no statutory proceedings were actually taken in the end.
  Mr. Fraser: The figures I quoted were taken straight out of the Report on Agriculture, published by the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Maclay: I will give the official figures for cases where statutory action under the Act has been taken since 1948. Since the 1948 Act came into force on 1st November, 1948, agricultural executive committees in Scotland have served, in all, 345 warning notices on occupiers of agricultural land on husbandry grounds, and 61 on owners on estate management grounds. I think the difference is a quite understandable one.
  The figures I have given are of cases where statutory action was taken whereas the figures given by the hon. Member for Hamilton are of cases which came under consideration, but out of which statutory action did not arise. The figures I have given of cases where the statutory powers were used are correct.
  Mr. Fraser: Surely everybody anticipated in 1948 that when these agricultural executive committees were set up they would render great service to agriculture without having to take any statutory steps at all to impose discipline on the landowners and farmers. That was the intention.
  Mr. Maclay: I entirely agree, but the question really is whether we are entitled to maintain a very heavy structure and one alien to this country and to impose our will on free agents. That has to be done in time of war and, perhaps, in time of acute scarcity, but it is not a system which is attractive to the great mass of the people.
  Mr. Fraser: Who says that, apart from the Minister?
  Mr. Maclay: Quite a number of people. The Liberal Party nods in agreement with me.
  To anyone concerned for the basic freedoms, it would appear that the time has come to dispense with these powers. We have to accept them in times of emergency, but we want to get rid of them as soon as we can unless it can be shown that they are imperatively needed. I think that my right hon. Friend made it absolutely clear yesterday that they are not imperatively needed today.
  I will finish what I have to say on Part II of the Act. I want to pay a very sincere tribute to the way in which the agricultural executive committees in Scotland and their sub-committees have carried out—as I know they have in England and Wales—what must have been to them at times a very invidious task. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If hon. Members opposite do not want to agree with me and pay a tribute to those bodies they need not do so. The agricultural executive committees have done much —and in this I agree with the hon. Member for Hamilton—by the exercise of persuasion and have not resorted to the use of disciplinary powers unless they had no other option.
  There is still a great deal of useful work for the committees to do. They will continue to administer the Marginal Agricultural Production Grants Scheme. The hon. Gentleman knows that that is an important and quite heavy duty to perform. They will be responsible for the selection of the farms and the whole administration of the scheme, with the exception of making the actual payment which comes from my Department. That is the marginal scheme.
  The committees will go on assisting in the administration of the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Improvement Schemes. They will exercise important functions related to the control of animal and bird pests—notably the rabbit clearance campaign and will administer the provisions relating to the destruction of injurious weeds, which it is proposed to strengthen under Clause 7 of the Bill, and will deal with land utilisation questions and with some other miscellaneous matters. The first two particularly are very important functions indeed, and it would be a very bad day
  1300
  for Scottish agriculture if they were not doing that work. I am just explaining the Bill a little more in detail having disposed of some of the main but very erroneous arguments of the hon. Gentleman.
  I should say that in Scotland the Land Court will take over——
  Mr. R. T. Paget: Are we to understand that the agricultural executive committees are now to be assistant pests officers and nothing else?
  Mr. Maclay: That is a very nice phrase, but one divorced from all sense.
  I was about to explain what happens now about the Land Court. In Scotland, the Land Court will take over the adjudicatory functions at present undertaken by the agricultural executive committees, such as the giving of consent to notices to quit and the granting of certificates of bad husbandry. The Court, of course, already has experience of hearing appeals in such cases, and we are fortunate in not having to devise any new judicial machinery. Nor do we require to make detailed provision in the Bill as regards procedure, since such matters are covered by the rules of the Court.
  Clause 2 of the Bill, which deals with arbitration as to rent, applies to Scotland in the same manner as it applies to England. There is one slight difference between the two countries in the arbitration procedure in that in Scotland a rent may only be referred to arbitration at a break in the lease or, in the case of farms held on tacit relocation, every five years as compared with every three years in England.
  I do not think it will be disputed—in spite of what the hon. Member for Hamilton said—by tenant farmers themselves in Scotland that the general level of rents has lagged very far behind the level of prices generally. That, at any rate, I think, is common ground. Nor do I think there can be any doubt that the inadequate level of rent generally makes it difficult for landlords to fulfil their estate management obligations. In so far as landlords have insufficient resources to enable them to provide and improve the necessary fixed equipment on farms, the interests of the tenants themselves and the wider interests of agricultural production are bound to suffer.

  1301
  In our view, this situation cannot be allowed to continue, and we think it can best be met by giving arbiters statutory guidance as to the basis on which rents should be revised. We have provided in the Bill that the basis should be the rent at which the holding might reasonably be expected to be let in the open market by a willing landlord. In course of time this should result in all rents, whether under existing leases or under newly-negotiated leases, being on a comparable basis. I say "in course of time." I do not think that this can possibly be said to be unfair or unreasonable.
  The hon. Member for Hamilton asked, why change? May I refer him to the words he used? The present instruction or guidance to arbiters is to assess the rent properly payable. There is no other way. The hon. Gentleman knows that the practice has varied in a remarkable way all over Scotland, even in relatively close areas, between arbiter and arbiter, for lack of any clear evidence as to what is desirable. It has resulted in certain jealousies and irritations, because what happens in one part of the country is different from what happens in another. It must be in the interests of the whole industry in the long run if this is corrected in the way which we propose.
  Mr. T. Fraser: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many of these cases have gone to arbitration? I thought they were normally agreed between landlord and tenant.
  Mr. Maclay: I have some sample figures, but I will not quote them because conceivably they could be misleading and I am not sure that they meet the hon. Gentleman's requirements. There have been a considerable number of arbitrations and I agree that the good sense of Scottish landlords and tenants has enabled them to reach agreement without arbitration, but the case for putting this on a sound basis is unassailable.
  I come now to Clause 3, which deals with security of tenure. The hon. Gentleman slipped into the trap of confusing Clauses 3 and 6, and that was why there was some confusion in our exchange. I should perhaps make it clear that time Scottish organisations representing landlords and tenants were not parties to the agreement between the Country Landowners' Association and the National Farmers' Union in England. I hope and
  1302
  believe, however, that the greater measure of flexibility which the Clause seeks to introduce, without altering the general character of the existing provisions, will commend itself to Scottish landlords and tenants and prove to be in the general interests of agriculture in Scotland as in England.
  Mr. Fraser: By flexibility does the right hon. Gentleman mean that it will be easier for the landlord to get the tenant out? Flexibility is just that.
  Mr. Maclay: The hon. Gentleman has studied the wording of the Bill and he knows the wording of the old Act. It is really only a change of emphasis. If it could be disastrous, does he believe that the Country Landowners' Association and the N.F.U. in England would have agreed to it? No. This is a wise tidying up, after years of study, of the provisions of the 1948 Act.
  Mr. Fraser: What about the Scottish N.F.U.?
  Mr. Maclay: I said that the Scottish N.F.U. had not reached agreement with the landowners, but I have no reason to believe it feels strongly about it.
  I come now to Clause 6 which deals with succession and bequest. This is an important matter. There is a material difference between Scotland and England in the present statutory provisions affecting landlords and tenants. I refer to the provisions about the succession to tenancies of legatees and heirs-at-law. It is important to get this clear.
  May I first explain briefly the present statutory provisions in Scotland? First as to legatees unless his lease expressly forbids it, a tenant may bequeath his lease to any person. If, however, the landlord can establish to the satisfaction of the Land Court any reasonable ground of objection to the legatee, the bequest is declared null and void. Secondly, as to the heir-at-law at present: if a tenant dies intestate or if a bequest of a lease is declared null and void, the right to the lease devolves upon the heir-at-law. If the landlord can establish to the satisfaction of the Land Court any reasonable ground of objection, the interest of the heir-at-law in the holding is terminated by the order of the Court.
  Once a legatee or heir-at-law has succeeded to a tenancy, he can continue

  1303
  in it indefinitely and, indeed, pass it on to his successor in turn, and so on ad infinitum. No termination is ever in sight. This is a situation——
  Mr. Fraser: Is the right hon. Gentleman arguing that that is good?
  Mr. Maclay: The Scottish system was always different from the English practice. Scottish agriculture has not been good only since 1948—the days of the Labour Government. I want to make certain that this point is understood. The situation I have described has arisen from the fact that in 1948 the security of tenure provisions then enacted became superimposed on the historic right of the heir-at-law to succeed to the unexpired portion of the lease. That is how it happened. It was not explicit, it was chance.
  I would emphasise here that, as far as I can ascertain, this fixity of tenure, extending indefinitely, was not introduced of set purpose. Had this result been intended I am certain that the Government of the day would have explained why in their view it was desirable that tenancies in Scotland should be perpetuated in that way, particularly in view of the fact that the 1947 Act had provided that tenancies in England should be terminable on the death of the tenant. I have had the records of the debates on the 1948 Bill examined and I am assured that no such explanations were given. What really happened was that by a combination of the Scottish law of bequest, which allowed people to pass on the unexpired portion of a lease, plus security of tenure, an entirely unforeseen result was achieved, and that has given not security of tenure but fixity.
  In Clause 6 we propose to make two changes. Firstly, we propose to restrict the tenant's right of bequest so that in future he will be able to bequeath only the unexpired portion of his lease to a member of his family. Secondly, we propose to re-establish the position that a legatee or heir-at-law can succeed only to any unexpired portion of the lease. As regards the first of these changes, it is generally accepted that it is unreasonable to allow a tenant to bequeath a holding to someone outside his family. As regards the second, it is fair to say that the security of tenure provision introduced in 1948, combined with the law of succes-
  1304
  sion in Scotland, has led to a fixity or perpetuity of tenure which was not foreseen—I repeat that. This is a position peculiar to Scotland. In England and Wales, as hon. Members know, the landlord can give an effective notice to quit within three months of the death of the tenant.
  Existing tenants in Scotland have a strong personal interest in the maintenance of the present position, but there are other matters which it is the duty of the Government to weigh. There is, for instance, the interest of a young man who is not fortunate enough to succeed, or have prospects of succeeding, to a farm. I ask hon. Members to think of the second and third sons of farmers. There are young men today who have practically no hope of a farm unless they buy one. The changes we propose will not, of course, increase the number of farms but they will help in a small way to open up the possibilities for younger sons of farmers and for others who are desirous of getting farms.
  I do not wish to exaggerate the extent to which this will happen—that would be wrong—but the landlord will be able to terminate the interest of an heir-at-law or legatee at the end of the lease to which he has succeeded. I have no doubt whatever that, in the majority of cases, the efficient legatee or heir will be able to secure a new tenancy of his farm, as happened before 1948. There will be no revolutionary change in the present position, but an element of flexibility—I would claim, a very desirable element of flexibility—will be introduced into Scottish farming.
  Mr. Woodburn: May I intervene to keep the record right? It is not the fact that nothing was known about the so-called fixity of tenure in 1948 because that very term was used by, I believe, the hon. Member for North Angus (Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley) if not in the debates, certainly when the Bill was passed. The term was used as a criticism of the rather severe restrictions on the changes of tenancies in Scotland. I do not propose to argue the merits of it and I merely intervene for the sake of the record.
  Mr. Maclay: The word "fixity" may not be new but I tried to find out if it had been clearly brought out what was the curious effect of Scottish law plus

  1305
  fixity of tenure, and I could not find a trace.
  Clause 6 does nothing to disturb the security of tenure enjoyed by existing tenants. What it does is to enable the landlord, by giving notice within three months of the death of a tenant, to limit the right of a legatee or heir to any unexpired period of the lease. If at the end of that lease the legatee or heir-at-law is given notice to quit, he will be entitled to receive from the landlord compensation in respect of tenant's improvements, including compensation for unexhausted manurial values and compensation for disturbance. If, on the other hand, the legatee or heir-at-law is given a new lease, he will, like any other new tenant, have security of tenure for his lifetime, subject to the other provisions of the Agricultural Holdings Act as amended by Clause 3 of the Bill. I felt that I should make that clear, because there has been doubt and, I think, misunderstanding about what the Clause achieves.
  I should explain as briefly as I can why Clause 4 of the Bill is not being applied to Scotland. The position is that the existing statutory provisions concerning the provision of fixed equipment on agricultural holdings in Scotland are already quite adequate. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, in opening the debate yesterday, mentioned two matters with which the Clause is designed to deal. These relate to obligations under the Milk and Dairies Regulations and under the Safety, Health and Welfare Regulations.
  Under Section 29 of the Milk and Dairies (Scotland) Act, 1914—we are more than forty years ahead of England—the tenant of premises used, with the consent of the landlord, as a dairy may carry out any structural alterations or improvements necessitated by the Act and recover from the landlord such proportion of the expenses incurred as may be just and equitable, regard being had to the terms of any contract between the parties.
  The provision of fixed equipment for the purpose of the Agricultural (Safety, Health and Welfare Provisions) Act, 1956, too, is safeguarded as regards Scotland by Section 25 (4) of that Act. The onus of providing any fixed equipment is, under this provision, already placed on
  1306
  the landlord. Therefore, it is not necessary for Clause 4 of the Bill to be applied to Scotland.
  I have taken rather longer than I intended, because we became rather argumentative at the beginning. In conclusion, I claim that the provisions of the Bill in their application to Scotland as in their application to England, are designed to deal in a realistic way with the problems which have emerged in the last ten years in this sphere. The disciplinary powers contained in Part II of the Agriculture (Scotland) Act, 1948, have outlived their usefulness. Rents have admittedly failed to keep pace with the costs faced by landlords, who are under increasing difficulties in meeting their obligations in regard to fixed equipment. Experience of the working of the 1948 Act has shown the need for changes in the matter of agricultural tenure if the landlord-tenant system is to survive.
  I am quite aware that what we propose to do in this matter falls short of what Scottish landlords generally would like to see. The Scottish Landowners Federation has represented that there should now be a return to a system of contractual leases, and has put forward cogent arguments, with each contract terminating at the end of the stated period of the lease. We have, however, thought it right to maintain the main framework of the security of tenure provisions introduced in 1948.
  Under our proposals, the efficient tenant will be able to continue in occupation of his farm, on a fair and reasonable basis. The landlord will not, however, be bound to accept the tenant's heir or legatee as his new tenant except as regards any unexpired portion of the lease. The provisions of the Bill should give greater opportunity for young men to enter farming and should contribute materially to the efficiency and well-being of the industry. I believe that this is a good Bill in the true tradition of the desire, on both sides of the House, to further effectively the interests of British—English, Welsh and Scottish—farming.
  5.24 p.m.
  Mr. Roderic Bowen: I do not think anybody can deny that today there is considerable anxiety among the farming community, and particularly among small farmers, about the future

  1307
  of the industry and the future of their own economic welfare. I do not believe that that anxiety springs in the main from the provisions of this Bill. The Part of the Bill with which we are most concerned is a Part which does not affect the overwhelming majority of the farmers in these islands. The overwhelming majority of our farmers regard questions of supervision, direction and dispossession as academic matters which are hardly likely to affect them in their ordinary operations. Their anxiety—it is a very real one—springs from far more immediate practical problems.
  Farmers are more concerned about how Part I of the 1947 Act is to be operated. I believe that they will show much greater concern with the announcements, which, I am told, are to be made next Thursday, concerning the Price Review than with anything contained in the Bill. They are far more concerned with the way in which a number of Acts relating to agriculture are at present being implemented. They are concerned with the fact that many of the benefits envisaged by that legislation are not being passed on to the industry to anything like the degree which they had hoped.
  For example, the small farmer, certainly in Wales, is deeply disappointed at the way in which the Farm Improvement Scheme is being operated. It would appear that there is great danger of its being implemented in a way which is directed towards enforcing amalgamation of small farms. The farming community is also deeply anxious as to the position concerning the extension of electricity facilities in the rural countryside, the slowness of the provision of adequate road services and, perhaps, more than anything else, the difficulties with which the small farmer is faced in relation to the provision of capital for his industry. Those are the matters, far more than anything contained in the Bill, which are today a source of anxiety to the farming community.
  On Clause 1 of the Bill, considerable criticism was made yesterday, in particular by the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), concerning the recommendations of the Franks Committee. I feel a little diffident about commenting on the recommendations of the Franks Report, as I was a member of
  1308
  that Committee, but it should be remembered that that Committee was not concerned with the question of whether powers of supervision, direction and dispossession should continue. That was a policy matter for which the Franks Committee had no responsibility. Indeed, it would have been quite outside its terms of reference to have made any observations in that regard. The Franks Committee was, however, vitally concerned with the way that those powers were to be exercised if they continued to be held by the Ministry and by those operating under the Ministry.
  I believe that the farming community —either the good farmer or the bad farmer—is entitled to have disciplinary action and penal processes carried out against him, with due regard to natural justice in the same way as any other member of society is entitled to this protection. That was the sole basis of the recommendation of the Franks Committee.
  One thing was quite clear from the evidence given before that Committee; there was considerable dissatisfaction with the way in which the powers contained in Part II were exercised—not with the personal exercise of the powers but with the method by which the quasi-judicial processes were operated. The evidence of the Ministry itself indicated some degree of disquiet, and the Wilson Committee recommendations indicated that that Committee, too, was dissatisfied with the existing set-up. It was manifest that a change had to be brought about if these powers were to continue to be exercised.
  Rather than implement the recommendations of the Franks Committee in regard to the exercise of these powers the Government have decided to abolish them. I believe that the recommendations of the Franks Committee in this respect were fully justified. The right hon. Member for Don Valley regarded them as fantastic——
  Mr. Thomas Williams: They were.
  Mr. Bowen: He may remember that these recommendations were put forward by a Committee which included among its members a former Ministerial colleague of his who had a particular responsibility for land and, further, was a Scottish Law Officer in the Labour Government.

  1309
  Whether or not these powers should continue to exist, they have very little relevance to the question of agricultural production. The immense technical, scientific and practical strides which have been made by the farming community have been made not because of the fear of farmers being dispossessed or put under supervision or direction, and to suggest that they have is grossly unfair to the farming community. I do not know whether those who are opposed to Clause 1 wish to see more dispossessions and more and more farmers put under supervision. I do not know whether they really believe that that is the way to maintain the progress in production which has been going on for many years. I do not believe that it is. I believe that the overwhelming majority of the farming community is carrying out its job efficiently, and certainly not because it would be disciplined if it did not do so.
  Mr. James Johnson: In that case, will the hon. and learned Member explain why, as far as we can judge, the organised farmers, in their own national union, are opposed to the Bill?
  Mr. Bowen: I shall deal with that point. The reason there is opposition to the Bill is that it is believed that the abolition of the disciplinary sections in Part II of the 1947 Act will be followed by the abolition of Part I.
  Mr. Williams: As happened in 1921.
  Mr. Bowen: That is the basis of the opposition. I believe that it is an erroneous belief, and I am speaking now as a member of a county executive committee of the National Farmers' Union. The opposition is not based upon the fact that farmers pin any faith upon powers of dispossession or supervision, nor do they look with pride at the fact that some of their fellow farmers are supervised. Their opposition is based upon the fear that the abolition of Part II of the Act will be followed by the abolition of Part I.
  There is no earthly reason why Part I should not continue to operate without the provisions contained in Part II. Those who argue to the contrary are saying, "The price to be paid for Part I is to be found in the penal provisions of Part II."
  Mr. T. Fraser: The hon. and learned Member should listen to the arguments.
  Mr. Bowen: I have listened very carefully to the arguments. I had the fortune —or misfortune—to hear every word that the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) had to say.
  Mr. Fraser: I did not say that.
  Mr. Bowen: I am saying it. The real issue here is whether we accept the argument that in order to have guaranteed prices we must have powers of dispossession, supervision and direction. I do not believe that the continued application of a guaranteed price policy should be conditional upon continued powers of a penal nature, or that the exercise of those powers during the last few years has had any appreciable effect upon agricultural production. One reason for my believing that is that these provisions have become virtually dead.
  Mr. Williams: Why?
  Mr. Bowen: For a number of reasons. The main one is that those in the agricultural industry have realised that there is no purpose in exercising them.
  Mr. Williams: Has the hon. and learned Member read the Answer given by the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to a Question asked on 10th December last? The hon. Gentleman then told the House that his right hon. Friend's advice to county agricultural executive committees was to deal only with very bad cases of bad husbandry.
  Mr. Bowen: I know that. As I understand it, the implication of the right hon. Member's interjection is that he wants to see these Committees busying themselves with more and more supervision orders and more and more dispossessions.
  Mr. Williams: No.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: That is a distortion.
  Mr. Bowen: I strongly object to the suggestion that I am doing other than stating what I believe to be true. There may be conflicting opinions in this matter, but to try to suggest that I am guilty of distortion is unworthy.
  Mr. Fraser: The hon. and learned Member was asked by my right hon. Friend if he had seen the Answer given

  1311
  by the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to a Question on 10th December last, and he said "Yes". His implication was that my right hon. Friend wanted certain things to happen, but there was no implication of what my right hon. Friend wanted in the reply given by the Joint Parliamentary Secretary. He made it quite clear that these supervisory powers were not being exercised because the Minister had instructed the committees not to exercise them.
  Mr. Bowen: The hon. Member seems very anxious to come to the rescue of his right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Fraser: No.
  Mr. Bowen: As I understood the intervention, it was made to remind the House that the Government had indicated to executive committees that they should exercise their penal powers only in bad cases. I do not know what conceivable relevance there is in reminding the House of that fact, except to associate oneself with the assertion that there should be more disciplinary action than there has been during recent years.
  Mr. Paget: Of course there should. There is some shocking farming.
  Mr. Bowen: Will the hon. and learned Member's colleagues indicate whether they want to see greater activity by agricultural executive committees in this direction, and whether they want to see more and more "chasing up" of the agricultural community?
  Mr. Paget: If the hon. and learned Member is asking a question, I will answer it right away. The answer is "Yes." I have seen some shockingly bad farming in the last few years, which is a disgrace. If the hon. and learned Member seriously imagines that the Government will go on guaranteeing prices and costs in the case of really bad farming over which there is no control, he has a great deal less sense than the farmers, who know that the Government will not do so.
  Mr. Bowen: I am grateful for that honest declaration which does much to clarify the official Labour Party attitude in this matter.
  In one respect I believe that the exercise of these disciplinary powers has had
  1312
  a detrimental effect on production. I do not wish to pitch this too high, but in my experience farmers have sometimes been reluctant to turn for assistance to the advisory services. I speak as the Member for a constituency where there are probably a greater number of these facilities than in any other constituency in the country. There is the plant breeding station, the National Advisory Service, the University Department of Agriculture and other facilities. The farmers in my constituency are fortunate in having these services to which to turn for help and guidance. A great many take advantage of them, but I should like to see more doing so. Quite mistakenly some farmers are reluctant to turn for advice to these organisations because of the disciplinary, the punitive, provisions in Part II of the 1947 Act. As I say, I do not wish to pitch this too high, but I believe that the abolition of those penal provisions will assist in the extension of the advisory services.
  If the effect of Clauses 2 and 3 is that there will be opportunities for a greater number of young men to enter the industry, that will benefit the agricultural community. About a fortnight ago I said in this House that one of the most disquieting features about the industry today was the fact that it is now more difficult for young men to climb the agricultural ladder than at any time during the last hundred years. I can illustrate that by reference to my own constituency. Many of the farmers there are the children and grandchildren of farm labourers, and that is a fact of which we are proud. Today, however, the son of a farm labourer has less prospect than at any time in the last hundred years of becoming first a smallholder and then an independent farmer.
  Mr. Fraser: We shall have to have more bankruptcies to get some vacancies.
  Mr. Bowen: I am sorry that the hon. Member does not display anxiety about the burning desire of young men to become farmers and to farm on their own account.
  One of the main difficulties is caused by the reluctance of landlords to let a farm as an alternative to selling it. Anything which will encourage landlords to let farms rather than to sell them is a

  1313
  good thing. About 75 per cent. to 80 per cent. of the farmers in my constituency are owner-occupiers and, generally speaking, that is a good thing. One difficulty, however, is that usually the small owner-occupier has devoted a lot of his capital to the purchase of his farm and therefore has no money available for the improvement of the land.
  In my area I believe that arbitrators have been operating in a satisfactory way under the existing provision. There are variations in different parts of the country and different arbitrators interpret their duties in different ways. I do not say that that will cease because of the provisions in Clause 2 of the Bill. I consider that the formula contained in that Clause is not a happy one and I hope that it will be changed considerably during the Committee stage.
  It is unfortunate that this matter was dealt with while researches into this subject by the Department of Estate Management at Cambridge University are still continuing. It would be unfortunate if the formula set out in the Clause was interpreted as giving power to an arbitrator to fix a rent on the basis of what the highest bidder would pay. It would be most unfortunate if the arbitrator is given power to take account of scarcity value in peculiar circumstances and localities, and I hope that the present formula will be changed. I could make some suggestions, but I do not wish to weary the House. When I was a member of the Lord Chancellor's Committee on leasehold reform, we had the same difficulty when trying to arrive at a similar formula.
  Clause 3 is, so to speak, an agreed Clause between the National Farmers' Union and the C.L.A. Some parts of it cause me anxiety. It is of extreme importance to keep in mind the proviso to the Clause. If full weight is not given to that proviso, hardship may well be done as between landlords and tenant. I refer, of course, to the proviso that no notice will operate if the circumstances are such that a fair and reasonable landlord would not insist on possession. I have had direct and practical experience of this, and it is my experience that the agricultural land tribunals have operated admirably. I have considerable faith that they will operate that proviso with extreme fairness.
  1314
  There are one or two other matters in Clause 3 which are not so satisfactory. On the greater hardship issue, it is important to remember that the onus will be on the landlord. It is for him to satisfy the tribunal that greater hardship will be upon him. Paragraph (a) on good husbandry, includes the phrase.
  "… treated as a separate unit."
  I strongly approve of that phrase, but what gives rise to considerable anxiety in my mind is the provision in paragraph (b):
  "… treated either as a separate estate or as part of a larger estate."
  That means, as I see it, that a tenant who is farming a satisfactory unit in a perfectly satisfactory way might be dispossessed because his landlord happens to have other units which are unsatisfactory adjoining it or in the immediate neighbourhood. That possibility should be eliminated.
  I welcome the provisions of Clause 4 which will do a great deal to help the tenant to face the problems connected with fixed equipment. Clause 5 contains one of the recommendations of the Franks Committee and should be welcomed by the House. I welcome also the provisions of Clause 7 and hope that adequate use will be made of them.
  The main provisions relate to the abolition of the penal Sections and should also be welcome, but the abolition of this Part of the 1947 Act is no argument whatsoever for attacking or altering the provisions of Part I of that Act in any way.
  5.52 p.m.
  Sir Thomas Dugdale: It is some time since I had the honour of intervening in an agricultural debate and it is a very great pleasure to do so following the hon. and learned Member for Cardigan (Mr. Bowen). I know, from some experience of our debates, the interesting contributions that the hon. and learned Member makes and which bring to our discussions the atmosphere of Welsh Wales. I agree with many of the things he said, and I hope to refer to them as I proceed with my speech.
  My main reason for intervening is that ever since the Agriculture Act, 1947, appeared in this House, I have been associated with it in various capacities, not

  1315
  only as Minister of Agriculture but as leading for the Opposition, when we were in opposition to the Government. I have seen it work in the country. I want there to be no doubt in the minds of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in any part of the House about my attitude to the Bill, especially in view of the attacks which have been made upon my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture in respect of Clause 1, which eliminates the disciplinary powers contained in Part II of the 1947 Act and the complementary Scottish Act of 1948.
  Since the debate started yesterday afternoon that has been the most controversial issue, but I venture to prophesy —a very rash thing to do in this House —that after a very few months have gone by it will not be an issue at all in any part of the country. I support the Minister's proposals in Clause 1, in spite of the fact, of which I want the Opposition to take note as I have checked the figures, that during the years when I had the honour to occupy the office of Minister of Agriculture I operated the disciplinary powers to a greater extent than any other Minister of Agriculture, including the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams).
  Mr. Peart: I am glad that the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Sir T. Dugdale) has intervened. We welcome his contribution to the debate. He says that he supports his right hon. Friend's proposals in Clause 1. Does the right hon. Gentleman remember being reported in the British Farmer in 1952 as saying that farmers had to realise that Part 1 of the 1947 Act carried the obligations of Parts 2 and 3, and that, any way, no good farmer liked to see land badly farmed or not farmed at all? That attitude of the right hon. Gentleman was supported by the farming community. Why change it today?
  Sir T. Dugdale: I shall deal with that point before I sit down. I want to refer now to the speech made yesterday by the right hon. Member for Don Valley. He let his imagination run riot. He conjured up every kind of bogy which would devour the poor unsuspecting farmer. That would not be so bad were it not for the possibility that some farmers might think that what the right hon.
  1316
  Gentleman said was right. It must have been the result of his birthday. I would be among the first to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon his 70th birthday yesterday and to wish him well in the years ahead, but I honestly think that his birthday must have made him feel suddenly like that aged, admirable bird, the Dodo. The right hon. Gentleman kept telling the House about the iniquities of Conservative Ministers of Agriculture during 1921 and 1924, in the days of long ago. In so doing, his judgment on this Measure, which we are considering in March, 1958, was at fault.
  I wish to draw the attention of the House and of farmers in all parts of the country, including Scotland, to the simple fact that the position has completely changed during recent years, even since the day when the right hon. Member for Don Valley left the Ministry of Agriculture in 1951. What has happened? A very great deal, as the result of seven years of good Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Very well, let us look at one or two things that have happened.
  There is no longer scarcity of food. Farmers have increased production. Do hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite really want scarcity of food to come back? There is no longer a Ministry of Food or a Minister of Food. Do they want the whole organisation of the Ministry of Food to come back? There is no longer a complicated system of rationing, as there was very definitely in 1951, and all that went with it. Do hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite want rationing and the ration book to come back again? If the ration book comes back it means that the Ministry of Food also comes back.
  I would here divulge, if Mr. Speaker will allow me to do so, that from our experience when we were trying to decontrol food for the benefit of the country, the consumers, the farmers and everybody else, we learned that rationing bred scarcity. At that time, the Minister of Food and I were engaged in the decontrol of eggs, and we were told by our advisers in all parts of the country that the moment we did that there would be no eggs in the shops for the consumer. I suggest that from the very moment when decontrol took place, eggs appeared and have continued to appear in such large numbers that the present Minister

  1317
  of Agriculture has a very different problem to face in regard to egg production.
  Mr. Victor Collins: One matter which has not been mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, but which has happened in the last few years, is that, in the last five years, as a direct result of their successful efforts, farmers have suffered an underrecoupment of £135 million, and in the last three years their earnings have dropped in money values by 8 per cent. while those of other people have gone up by 25 per cent.
  Sir T. Dugdale: I shall deal with that point later in my speech. The point is that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to use as a yardstick the amount of Government help which the industry receives. That seems to me to be a completely wrong way to look at the problem.
  In another field, during the last three years, the Government have passed through this House the Agriculture Act, 1957, which marked another big advance in our agricultural policy. Finally in this regard, the Franks Committee made recommendations in Chapter 13 of its Report dealing with agriculture and the county committees. All these things have happened, and as a result of these changes, the present Minister, in my view, had two courses open to him, and only two. He either had to accept the recommendations contained in Chapter 13 of the Franks Committee Report, which would entail new tribunals being established, independent of the Minister and of the counts committees, to perform the adjudicating functions now exercised by the county committees, or, alternatively, to repeal the disciplinary powers of Part II of the Agriculture Act, 1947.
  In reference to the recommendations of the Franks Committee, which were mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for Cardigan, I accept what the hon. and learned Member said, and agree that it was not the duty of the committee in any way to consider the wisdom of what was contained in Part II of that Act, but only to make recommendations in case the provisions of Part II remained in being. I say that in passing. This is the decision which the Minister of Agriculture had to take, and he has decided on the second course. As one who held the responsibility of his
  1318
  office for a period of years, I am convinced that he has taken the right decision.
  I should like now to turn to a question which the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) raised in yesterday's debate and to which reference has been made today by the hon. and learned Member for Cardigan——
  Mr. J. Johnson: I did not get an answer.
  Sir T. Dugdale: I am going to try to answer that very point.
  The hon. Member said, in effect, that although from the political point of view, the party opposite is opposed to the provisions contained in the Bill, why was it that organised farmers in the country were particularly opposed to Part I of the Measure? In regard to what the hon. and learned Member for Cardigan said, I agree that if anything happened to Part II of the Agriculture Act, 1947, it would inevitably be followed by something happening to Part I. That fear was brought out very clearly in a speech made yesterday by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Philips Price), who usually talks so wisely about agricultural matters. On this occasion, however, I must say that I disagreed with him very much. If there had not been the Agriculture Act, 1957, I would agree at once that there might be something to be said for his point of view, but, in effect, the Agriculture Act, 1957, put the provisions of Part I of the Agriculture Act, 1947, on a firm and long-term basis, and that is a very important consideration indeed. I shall come in a moment to the point made by the right hon. Member for Don Valley yesterday.
  The farmers of this country should be thankful that that Act is on the Statute Book, particularly in this year of grace 1958, considering the overall economic position of the country. That is the Act under which the Government, while giving long-term assurances to the industry, are bound not to reduce the total value of the guarantees by more than 2½ per cent. in any one year, nor to reduce the guaranteed price of any review commodity by more than 4 per cent. I am afraid that these are rather technical matters, and perhaps only those who went through the Committee stage debates on the 1947 Act will be interested in them.

  1319
  The fact remains, as I think those hon. Members still with us will agree, that the weakness of the 1947 Act has always been Section 1, which deals with guaranteed prices and assured markets, but which left the position very much in the air. That was why my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture yesterday intervened in the debate and interrupted the right hon. Member for Don Valley to the effect that, until the 1957 Act was passed, there was nothing to stop the Government of the day reducing any of the guarantees under the 1947 Act to any degree it liked.
  Mr. Paget: Except honour.
  Sir T. Dugdale: That always was a very difficult point under the 1947 Act. In this regard, I heard the right hon. Member for Don Valley yesterday use what I thought was a false argument when he referred to under-recoupment during the last nine years, and to possible under-recoupment under the 1957 Act. The right hon. Gentleman gave examples to the effect that the average under-recoupment during the last nine years is likely to be less than the under-recoupment which we may expect under the 1957 Act. We shall have to wait and see.
  Mr. Collins: We shall not have to wait long.
  Sir T. Dugdale: Whatever we may see before the end of the week, the 1957 Act gives a certain guarantee as opposed to the uncertain provisions of Part I of the 1947 Act. In the long run, that, I think, is worth more to the farming community than any of the provisions of the 1947 Act. If any further assurances are required by the country or the House as to the intention of the present Government in regard to guarantees, the Minister gave them yesterday in his speech in the House and he has given them in other speeches in the country.
  Before leaving the question of guarantees, I would remind hon. Members in all parts of the House that the 1957 Act will come up for review after the 1960 Annual Review.
  Mr. T. Williams: A long-term policy?
  Sir T. Dugdale: It is by far the longest guarantee the farming community ever had. It will come up for review in 1960.
  1320
  At that stage it will be for the Government to determine whether to leave the percentages as they are or whether to reduce or increase them. Whatever they do, under the 1957 Act no alterations can become effective until the year 1962–63. I am certain I am correct in my assertion that this is the longest guarantee that the agricultural industry has ever enjoyed in its history. It will be up to hon. Members in the House at that time to be certain that the Government of the day, of whatever party it is composed, shall continue the provisions of the 1957 Act in the interests of the industry.
  Mr. J. Johnson: Is this not a funny tale to which we are listening? We are being assured that the farmers have all these guarantees. The farmers are not fools. They know this, yet, despite that fact, they still oppose the Bill. Can the right hon. Member tell us why that is so?
  Sir T. Dugdale: Yes, I can. I use the word not in a political sense. They are very conservative and have not yet realised the force and the wisdom of the 1957 Act, which has replaced Part I of the 1947 Act. Of that I think there is no doubt.
  I wish to say a word or two about the county committees, which have been referred to in the debate. It has been said that as a result of the repeal of Part II of the 1947 Act it will be impossible to attract the best type of farmer to serve on these committees, owing to the fact that they are to be relieved of their adjudicating functions. The right hon. Member for Don Valley went much further. He said that this repeal means the end of the county agricultural executive committees as effective bodies. I think that was going much too far. From one who is so much respected in the countryside I call that a most irresponsible statement. I do not accept the view that men will not be coming forward to serve on these committees as before. There will be any amount of work for them to do.
  If hon. Members opposite think that many members of county committees love this part of their work—putting people under supervision and dispossessing them in certain circumstances—I can assure them that it is the one part of the work which the committee men dislike doing more than any other. Only

  1321
  from a great sense of national duty did they accept it with the rest of their duties. I am certain there will be a great deal of work for them to do, of both an advisory and executive nature. Even during my time at the Ministry, which is now a few years ago, I had already started to switch from the disciplinary side of that work to the advisory side and to put more emphasis on the advisory way of helping farmers than on disciplinary methods which, however, I believe were essential when the 1947 Act was originally passed into law. I am certain the whole House will agree with me here. I wish to pay tribute to the excellent work they have done for the industry ever since they came into being in the early days of the Second World War. I was very pleased to hear the Minister yesterday inform the House that he hoped shortly to have detailed discussions with all the committee chairmen on the plans he has for their future.
  I wish to refer shortly to other parts of the Bill and to deal with the question of farm rents. We have heard various suggestions about Clause 2. Although there are differences of opinion as to the actual wording of that Clause, I believe that there is a large measure of agreement in all parts of the House and an appreciation that those who have to deal with the technical aspects of this subject want more guidance and clarification. On the broad issue, the vast majority of rents are decided and settled by agreement between landlord and tenant. There is no change in the policy there. Clause 2 is concerned simply with the interpretation of instructions to arbitrators, and it refers to a willing landlord. I do not want to get involved in legal arguments because I am not learned in the law, but I suggest that during further stages of the Bill the Minister should give careful thought and consideration to the wording of this Clause. I think that was also suggested by the hon. and learned Member for Cardigan.
  There must be a good reason why the wording in Clauses 2 and 3 is different. It must be a matter of legal interpretation. I hope that before the Bill reaches the Statute Book there will be a successful outcome of the problem of legal definition. I again emphasise that nearly all these rents are fixed by agreement between a willing landlord and a willing tenant. I understand that in the whole of 1957
  1322
  there were fewer than 150 cases in England and Wales which went to arbitration.
  During recent years the trend has been for an increase in rent. That, I think, has been agreed on all sides. We should remember that twenty years ago farmers paid roughly 15 per cent. of their outgoings in rent, whereas today they pay only 5 per cent. or 6 per cent. I will say nothing about Clause 3, which deals with security of tenure, other than to congratulate all concerned on reaching an agreed solution of this problem. There must have been a tremendous amount of work behind the scenes to reach agreement. That in itself must be for the benefit of the whole agricultural industry. I wish well to all who have to implement the Clause in the months and years to come.
  Clauses 4 and 7 make clear the Government's intention to retain the rules of good husbandry and good estate management, which is all to the good. Clause 5, which transfers to the Lord Chancellor duties formerly carried out by the Agricultural Ministers, is, in effect, a natural sequel to the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1954, when the House agreed that members of agricultural land tribunals should be appointed by the Lord Chancellor instead of by the Agricultural Ministers. Having been responsible for introducing the 1954 Bill, I am in wholehearted agreement with that.
  I should like to pay a tribute to my right hon. Friend the new Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, who moved the Second Reading of the Bill yesterday. Every Minister of Agriculture, to whichever part of the House he belongs, will find it a fascinating office, full of problems and difficulties, but he will find that the hard work which he devotes to that office will be well repaid from the support which he gets from all members of the farming community throughout the country.
  6.22 p.m.
  Mr. Joseph Slater: It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Sir T. Dugdale), who, this afternoon, has made what is probably his first speech since he resigned as Minister. The right hon. Gentleman represents a neighbouring constituency to mine and we have much in common. The farming community

  1323
  throughout the area has a great respect and affection for the right hon. Gentleman, because of the interest that he has taken in farming. I am glad to add my tribute to him, because I know that to be true.
  Speaking for the Government this afternoon, the Secretary of State for Scotland sought to draw my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) concerning the policy of the Labour Party towards agriculture. One thing that the right hon. Gentleman has forgotten since becoming a member of the Government is that when we were in office, and were proposing to import coal, he opposed its importation for reasons of shipping space. Now that he has come into the Government, he advocates policies that are detrimental to the community and to the people for whom he is expected to provide greater cover.
  The right hon. Gentleman took exception to the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) took us back into the past, into the 'twenties. It is not only the farming community which remembers what happened in those years. People in other creative industries can carry their minds back, too.
  In introducing the Second Reading yesterday, the Minister spoke of security of tenure. He said:
  "We must remember that since before the war rents have increased by an average of about 60 per cent. Maintenance costs, ordinary building repairs, and so on, have trebled."
  Then he said:
  "… some people have been trying to create the impression that there will be a sudden large increase in rents and that on thousands of farms rents will rise as a result of this new instruction to arbitrators. That simply is not so."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th March, 1958; Vol. 584, c. 1121.]
  Let us suppose, however, that talks break down between the tenant and the landlord concerning rent and that the matter is then passed to the arbitrator to decide the rent. If the rent so fixed by the arbitrator is too high for the tenant to afford, what will happen then? Will he be subject directly to notice from the landlord? If he can be given notice to quit, the fact that he and his family may have given their lifetime to the industry, and particularly to the holding of which he is the tenant, will count for nothing,
  1324
  because, like a bolt from the blue, he will be faced with the arbitrator's decision concerning his rent; and if it is too high, he must leave his tenancy. The tenancy will become vacant and eventually will be let to somebody else who has not the foggiest idea about farming, but is in a position to pay the rent that is asked.
  The Minister also stated yesterday that a willing landlord would not hold out for a freak rent. Are the Minister and his supporters on the Government side not aware that they are here applying the same principle as applies to landlords of private property, of which we have heard so much within recent weeks because of the effects of the Landlord and Tenant Act, together with the desire to get rid of the tenant at any price and to give the accommodation to the biggest bidder? After listening to the Minister yesterday, and carefully reading his speech today, he seems to me to be giving the greatest cover to the landlord at the expense of the tenant.
  I am all in favour of giving every assistance to the up and coming people in the industry. We have been reminded that a sense of frustration is growing among the young men and women who are taking courses at farming institutes and training colleges because they see little chance of getting a farm of their own within two or three years after their training. This may be true. I have every sympathy with the young people who want their own farms.
  Does not the same feeling apply to the farmworker, who, because of his circumstances, cannot afford to take the same course as the others? The farm-worker has probably been in the industry since leaving school and has given all his early life to the industry. Even though he does not have the means to avail himself of the same opportunities as other young people, he is surely just as good a class of farmer, if given the opportunity, as many of the other young people who take the courses in the farming institutes.
  I have always held the view that greater interest should be shown to those who belong to the land as against the type of person who, because of his financial position and influence, can edge his way into the industry and become the proud possessor of a farm.

  1325
  The Minister and those who support him know that young men from the industry, whether the sons of farmers or agricultural workers, have very poor hopes at present, in view of the many statements which have been made during this debate, of getting a farm as against the rich businessman. Under the new conditions that the Bill creates, the chances seem to be very remote indeed.
  Hon. Members on the Government benches have endeavoured to castigate my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) for his criticisms of the Bill. One thing about my right hon. Friend, however, is that he can face up to all the criticism and can give answers. It is surprising to hon. Members opposite that one who did so much to give security to the people in this industry during his period of office should be able to see the adverse effects that this Bill will have, if it is carried into law, upon those who responded so well to the appeal which he made for increased production from the farming community.
  My right hon. Friend did that when he was Minister of Agriculture in the Labour Government, and hon. Members opposite seem unable to understand that he is able to judge the Bill's effects. My right hon. Friend knows, as we all know, that repeal of Part II of the 1947 Act will have serious effects. Nor are we alone in this belief. The whole farming community supports this view and this principle. Part II of the 1947 Act laid down certain rules of good husbandry and estate management, and it was accepted as doing so, and it gained for agriculture a recognition which it had been denied for a long time.
  One of the things which most surprises me, looking back over the record of past Governments, is the number of Ministers of Agriculture the Tories have had over the years. Since I became a Member of this House, in 1950, the Tories—since 1951—have had three Ministers of Agriculture. Who can say that the present Minister will hold office for more than a short time?
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Richmond, Yorks, held the office, and I was wondering what his response was to the appeal which was made to him by the agricultural community in the rural areas from which he comes, the
  1326
  appeal made to him through the N.F.U., about the repeal of Part II of the 1947 Act. I think he knows as well as every one of us that within the County of Durham, and within his area, too, the farming community are not very favourably disposed to this proposal.
  It is not surprising that there should be this form of lamentation from the farming community against this Bill. The small farmers will no doubt be feeling very apprehensive. Many of them, I understand, have given loyal support to the Conservative Party, no doubt always believing that such a party would be interested in their welfare. There are rural areas in my constituency which, as I mentioned earlier, borders the constituency of the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks. I remember a businessman, who has a big farm in my constituency, and bigger interests outside the constituency, and who is a Tory councillor, saying, "Any farmer who votes Labour in Durham would not tell you so, because the farmer in the County of Durham is looked upon as a Tory."
  Those farmers are supporters of Tory policy, they were supporters of past Tory Governments, and they are supporters even of the present Tory Government, who are seeking to pass a Measure which can have only detrimental effects on the farming community not only in my constituency, but throughout the whole of the country. I wonder what will be the reaction of some of my farmers to this Bill if and when it is passed into law, and especially if it passes as at present drawn. They will feel that they have been let down by Tory philosophers who were believed to be so much concerned with their interests that they felt duty bound to give support to the Tory Party at the General Election.
  Like some of my hon. Friends I am at a loss to understand why the Government should be acting as they are, and, like the hon. and learned Member for Cardigan (Mr. Bowen), who spoke for the Liberals, I wonder whether it would not have been better to have awaited the findings of the independent investigation which is taking place.
  The repeal of Part II of the 1947 Act sounds the death knoll of the county agricultural executive committees as effective bodies. Some of us, as members of county authorities, have knowledge of those

  1327
  committees, and we know full well the time and energy that their members have devoted to carrying out the responsibilities which were placed upon them. Those people were carrying out their responsibilities and their duty in the belief that the job they had to do was a true job, enabling them to do something to help good husbandry, and in the belief that the farmer, and even the landlord, is, today, holding in trust land which belongs to the nation. The sooner we face that fact the better. I believe that the members of the agricultural executive committees will feel very put out indeed because of the Minister's intentions about the powers which were placed upon them and the responsibilities with which they were entrusted.
  Within the next few months many questions will be asked both inside and outside this House about this Measure. It will be up to the Minister to produce more convincing arguments than he has been able to give the House up to now if he is to get the Bill through and it is to work. We in Durham pride ourselves on having at Haughall one of the best agricultural colleges that there is in the country. Young students go there not only from all parts of the county, not only from all parts of this country, but from all parts of the world, including our Colonies. I have seen there the noble work which is being done.
  There is no getting away from the fact that there is some frustration amongst some of the younger people. We find that same feeling in every walk of life, but many these young people believe that the door to the industry is not opening quickly enough to allow them to enter the industry and to take up their responsibilities in it. I do not think that this Bill will assist those young people at all, in that way.
  In Durham we have a very strong agricultural society of which the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) is president. It is obvious from what I have heard in conversation with some of the farmers in my county that they are very worried about this Bill and its likely effects. Appeals are going out to the farmers, as to others, to do everything they can to reduce their costs as much as possible, but the Bill, far from assisting them in
  1328
  reducing their costs, may be a means of increasing them.
  If the Bill has measurable effects, as the Government think it will, then I can only say that, contrary to what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Richmond, Yorks, thinks, those effects, far from being beneficial to the farming community, will be adverse to the farming community.
  6.39 p.m.
  Sir James Duncan: The hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Slater), in so far as he touched on the terms of the Bill itself, opposed it. On the other hand, I welcome the Bill, because I believe that it adapts our legislation to these modern times of bounteous production. The days of food shortage and rationing have gone, and this is a time of peace, not the reconstruction period after the war. It also remedies injustices that were inherent, partly by accident, partly, perhaps, by design, in the previous Acts.
  For the most part, I shall refer to affairs in Scotland, where we now have, in round figures, 19,000 owner-occupiers and 21,000 tenants. The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) tried to make out that these owner-occupiers were left completely free to misuse the land they owned. I do not believe that for one minute. When a man becomes an owner-occupier, he has not only the benefits of a tenant of the land but the obligations of ownership, and that is no light matter. I can speak personally here, having some land that I own, out of which I have had nothing for some years—at any rate, since the war.
  This Bill will be beneficial to the owner-occupiers, because it will free them from unnecessary trammels but, at the same time, it will give them the opportunity to benefit from getting a realistic value on their holding should they want to sell. They will also benefit, because any increase in the general rent level will be of value to them as producers on the land, through the application of the Annual Price Review. Therefore, I do not in the least apologise for the freeing of owner-occupiers from these trammels. They have their troubles, and the very fact that they have to face the economic storm that may come, and have the additional burden of maintaining their properties, makes me believe that the Bill is the right way to deal with the problem.

  1329
  The majority of the farming land in Scotland—I exclude crofting land, because that is a different problem—is farmed on the landlord-and-tenant system, and that system, frankly, is threatened with break-down under the present set-up—let there be no doubt about that. If a farm becomes vacant today, the landlord has three choices. He can sell it with vacant possession. If he does so, he sells at a price above its real value. He can farm it himself. If it is only one farm, he can probably scrape up enough capital—and the capital sums needed are big today—to do so, but there are real limitations to landlords farming their own land. There are limitations of capital and the rest, and it is quite wrong to say, as has been suggested, that if landlords are allowed more easily to gain possession of the land, they will retain it. There are limits to what can be done.
  Under the present law, the third alternative is to let it, but it should be quite clearly understood that once a landlord lets a farm today neither he nor any of his successors in title to that land can ever hope to get it back again, except under the most exceptional circumstances. The tenant is a tenant for life. He can leave the farm to anyone he likes, inside or outside the family, and through the generations ad infinitum. I believe that to be an injustice that we should put right, and I congratulate the Government on having gone so far to put it right.
  Much has been made about the abolition of Part II of the Agriculture Act, 1947. Honestly, I do not think that this will raise any interest in Scotland. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The information I have is that, in Scotland, the main opposition of the farming community relates to security of tenure, but it is prepared to accept the abolition of the C.A.E.C.s. That is my information——
  Mr. Paget: They are all against it.
  Sir J. Duncan: I want to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) to what he did yesterday to members of his own party—and I am glad that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Cardigan (Mr. Bowen) is here, because I wish to reinforce what he said. The right hon. Gentleman made a vicious attack on the hon. and learned
  1330
  Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston), and on the noble Lord, Lord Silkin——
  Mr. T. Williams: I never said anything about them.
  Sir J. Duncan: The right hon. Gentleman viciously attacked the Franks Report.
  Mr. Williams: The hon. Member must not put into my mouth words that I never used. I attacked the Franks Committee as such, but not an individual, and I will attack the Committee again, if the necessity arises.
  Sir J. Duncan: If the right hon. Gentleman is attacking the Franks Committee, and that Committee makes a unanimous Report, as it did——
  Mr. Williams: Even if it is ridiculous?
  Sir J. Duncan: —as it did, then, ipso facto, he must be attacking every member of it. Therefore, he is attacking his own hon. and learned Friend, who was Solicitor-General for Scotland, and his noble Friend in another place who, as the hon. and learned Member for Cardigan pointed out, was very learned in the law when the Labour Government were dealing with land matters.
  On 31st October we debated the Franks Report on Administrative Tribunals and Enquiries. In that debate, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice) spoke and, in general, supported the Report, although, I must admit, he made a reservation about agricultural executive committees. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that we started from common ground, and that the Government should not be above the law. And he also said that in dealing with these things we must have "openness, fairness and impartiality."
  In that debate it was made clear, as, indeed, did the Report itself, that there was not, and there obviously seemed not to be, openness, fairness and impartiality. That is why I supported the Report of the Franks Committee then, and although the Government have adopted a solution different from that recommended by the Franks Committee, I believe that it is quite right that the present system should be done away with.

  1331
  I turn to rents. The hon. Member for Hamilton said that there is no need for the new instructions to arbiters. Since before the war, rents in Scotland—that is, rents based on assessment—have risen, overall, by about 15 per cent. That, of course, includes the owner-occupiers, whose assessments have not risen very much. For tenants only, the rise in rent has been, on average, about 25 per cent. It is difficult to get a wholly accurate figure, but the average is about 25 per cent.
  The cost of maintenance and repairs, however—and this is what the landlord has to do under the 1948 Act—has risen very much more than that. Let me give two figures, which I have checked over the weekend. For the benefit of the English Members, I will call them fence posts, but in Scotland we call them "stobs". Before the war they were 7d. each. Now, a good square stob costs at least half a crown.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: A near monopoly.
  Sir J. Duncan: That is nothing to do with it.
  Let me give the example of building trade charges to customers. I am not referring to building trade wages, because builders are allowed to increase the charge to cover National Health contributions, employees' holidays, and so on. I am referring to the increase in building trade charges to customers for jobbing work since 1939 to February of this year. I think that in my part of Scotland the building trades receive the same wages, whether for joiners, masons, or plumbers. In 1939, the rate was Is. 8½d. an hour. In February of this year it was 7s. 4d. an hour.
  In those circumstances, there must be a real justification for some rise in farm rents over and above the increase that has taken place, because the 25 per cent. rise in rents has not kept pace with the enormous increase in these costs. If we do not allow a rise in rents to compensate for the increased costs, building in Scotland will depreciate in value because landlords will not have sufficient from their income to maintain their buildings, unless they have some outside source. It is vitally important in the interest of Scottish agriculture to maintain the existing buildings, quite apart from all the
  1332
  capital expenditure involved in new and improved buildings.
  Mr. T. Fraser: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that those increases in rents have not been imposed by arbiters but have been voluntarily agreed between landlord and tenant? Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that there has grown in Scotland a practice whereby landlords transfer the whole of the responsibility for fixed equipment to the tenants, thereby keeping the rents down?
  Sir J. Duncan: That may be so, but that is not the answer to the question.
  It may be true—I am not prepared to argue—that in many cases private bargains have been made. But on what basis are those private bargains made? Advice is taken. Lawyers give advice on what increase one landlord has obtained and on what another landlord has obtained. A third case may go to arbitration. The level of increased rents achieved by private bargaining depends, in the end, to a large extent on the increase awarded in the arbitrated cases. That is an important point to be borne in mind. I do not think that there is much difference between the arbitrated rents and the private bargain rents, although, generally speaking, I believe that there is a slight increase in private bargain rents over the arbitrated rents, though not a large one.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: The hon. Gentleman referred to building costs. Does not the rate that the farmer has to pay on his bank overdraft come into the matter as well?
  Sir J. Duncan: Yes, but it comes into everything. The point is that arbiters' instructions are not clear. Arbiters are making different decisions according to their own interpretation of the words "properly payable." It is right for the Government, under Clause 2, to give clear instructions to arbiters on what they are to take into account.
  There was a case remitted to the Court of Session. I could quote the name of the case, but I am not very good at these legal terms. The Court of Session said that the landlord was not entitled to an open market rent and the arbiter was entitled to take into account the security of tenure provided by the Act and the fact that the tenant was a sitting tenant.

  1333
  The arbiter had to take those two factors into account, which, in turn, reduced the value of the lettings. That is the sort of thing on which we must loosen up if we are to increase rents.
  I welcome the new instructions, although they may not be wholly acceptable in every word. We have already had some arguments about a willing landlord, but I believe that the principle of the matter is satisfactory After all, farmers are quite prepared to pay a lot more rent than they are now paying, and that should be taken into account.
  The main argument that we shall have in Scotland is not on Part II, or on rents, but on security of tenure. I believe that Scottish farming became pre-eminent in Britain and, indeed, throughout the world through our system of long leases, and I should like to see that system restored if at all possible. Since the 1948 Act we have had this system of succession to which I have referred. That is manifestly an injustice, and is regarded as such by every farmer to whom I have mentioned the matter. I believe that this security of tenure for life for all existing sitting tenants, plus the right to will the remainder of the lease, is a fair compromise which ought to provide adequate security to every decent tenant. Incidentally, it is the same system as is followed in England.
  One of the criticisms which have been voiced is that as soon as the Bill becomes law there will be a "general post" of tenancies. I do not believe that. These changes will be gradual, and I believe that if we could loosen up, as I have suggested, it would give an opportunity to many second sons of farmers to obtain farms which otherwise they would not be able to do. I want to encourage the young men to come on, and I believe that this will help. In any case, the landlord only has the option. He does not have to give notice to quit. In the vast number of cases—in 999 cases out of every 1,000—the matter will be negotiated privately and no one will have to resort to the law courts.
  It has also been suggested that tenants will not make improvements in the future as they have in the past. This relates rather to a point which the hon. Member for Hamilton made about rents. On the other hand, compensation on outgoing, if the tenant does leave, will be paid on the
  1334
  value applicable at the date of death. Therefore, any improvements made in the future by the tenant will be valued on outgoing and, with rising costs, will be valued at a higher rate, than original cost. Combined with that, there will be compensation for disturbance and residual manurial value The bill would be so heavy that landlords would think twice before giving notice to quit to a tenant if they could get the legatee or the son or some similar person to take over the farm and the liabilities.
  I hope that the farming community will not gain the impression that, because we are passing the Bill into law, tenants and landlords have not a partnership role in farming. Under the old Act, which is still there in Part II, there are the respective obligations of both. Until now, because of the injustice of the existing law, many landlords have been quite unable to keep up with what tenants wanted. They have not had the money to do it, and they cannot get it out of the business, so to speak. If they have had private means outside, that is another matter.
  I want to see sufficient revenue coming to the landlords to do their own work, to build their own buildings for the tenants and fulfil their obligations. If that can be done, it will not be necessary for the tenants to put up all the improvements themselves; although I stress once again that, if the tenants do it, it will be fully compensated for in these ways.
  Mr. T. Fraser: No; only with consent.
  Sir J. Duncan: With consent, and some with notice; it depends. The hon. Member had better read his 1949 Act again.
  The third criticism offered is that tenants should be allowed to hand over to their sons. This, I feel, is the most difficult criticism to answer. The difficulty is that, if one allows the tenant security for his son, the son will have security for his son.
  Mr. Woodburn: Like the House of Lords.
  Sir J. Duncan: Like the House of Lords, ad infinitum. But the House of Lords is not quite like the average tenanted farm. After all, Members of the House of Lords are inheritors of their own titles. In this case, the tenant will be inheriting the landlord's property.

  1335
  That is the difference. I do not see how one can compromise on that, if one is to break fixity of tenure, unless one does what the Government are doing, which I believe is the fairest compromise, taking everything into account.
  We shall, no doubt, have to argue many points in Committee later. [An HON. MEMBER: "Will the hon. Member be on the Committee?"] I hope so. I welcome the Bill in all its Clauses. I believe that it will do a great deal of good in increasing production. I believe that, in a few months' time, when the Bill is law, the political fuss will be over and the Bill will work for the benefit of all.
  7.3 p.m.
  Mr. Sidney Dye: The hon. Member for South Augus (Sir J. Duncan) puts his finger on the main purpose of the Bill when he says that it has been introduced in order to maintain the landlord and tenant system, which is in grave danger of breaking down. He supports it because it will severely limit security of tenure for tenants and will enable rents to be raised. It is on those issues that we must oppose the Bill.
  I speak as a practical farmer.
  Sir J. Duncan: So do I.
  Mr. Dye: I do not want to make debating points by raking over the embers of past conflicts. We must apply our practical knowledge to the situation as it is today and the situation as we wish to see it in the future. We must recognise the purpose which the Government have in view, to maintain the rapidly declining landlord and tenant system.
  Throughout England, the greatest progress in farming has been made by owner-occupiers in recent years. When a man owns the land and farms it, puts his life and his capital into it, whether his resources are large or small, there he has the greatest security and the greatest urge. There he does his best. There England is led in good farming practice today. I shall not be drawn into a discussion of the situation in Scotland. Scotland is a beautiful land. In North Norfolk, we have so many who come from Scotland to farm our land that I am for ever surrounded by Scotsmen when
  1336
  I am at home. I am in no strange company when I see Scotland represented in the House, either.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Has my hon. Friend Ayrshire cattle, too?
  Mr. Dye: In trying to uphold the landlord and tenant system, the Government are going back to the past. I, and others who have experienced it, want none of it; we do not want to go back to the past. There was a day when a good man, with his skill, strength and health, and with a certain amount of capital, had to go and beg of another man the right to till his native land, often only to be turned down because of his political opinions or for some other reason Many a good man in Norfolk and other parts of England has tramped the road because he was denied that right in the past. We on this side will never uphold that system.
  The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Sir T. Dugdale) enjoyed himself today. I think he should enjoy himself now and again. He made a very good speech. But how out of date it was. What I heard him say about rationing and all the rest of it was said, word for word, by my political opponent at the last General Election, and he lost. It is out of date. Indeed, my political opponent went further; during the last three days of his election campaign he took round a tray on which were little bits of cheese, butter and margarine. He lost votes. All that silly claptrap about rationing belongs to the limbo of the past. We must face the present.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to deal with the 1957 Act. He said that it gave the farmers long-term security. For how long? Until 1960. What kind of security? Security that will reduce their incomes by nearly £30 million a year for three or four years. That is the kind of security the 1957 Act gave to farmers. They have had enough of it. That is why the National Farmers' Union is against the Bill. The last one let them down. Farmers accepted the Bill at the time not in the belief that the Government would reduce their incomes at each Annual Review while the income of every other section of the community went up. The Government do not seem able to understand the attitude of the N.F.U. today. Farmers have been "had" by this Government in last year's Act. and they do

  1337
  not want this Bill this year. They never asked for it. They never wanted it. In discussions over the preparation of the Bill they disagreed with the Government.
  It is strange, is it not, that the attitude of the National Farmers' Union today should be more in accord with the attitude of the Labour Party than with the Conservative Party? It is strange, bearing in mind political history, when, as I said earlier, those who owned the land could determine the political opinions of those who hired it and worked on it over the centuries. This is still done in some parts, but not in others. So when the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks. talked about the security to farmers in the 1957 Act, what false security it is.
  Of course, this year's Annual Review may not be a bad one for the farmers. After all, if there is a by-election in Devon we cannot expect the Government to reduce the guarantee for milk. They may take a bit off the wheat guarantee, because Devon does not grow much wheat. It is a consumer of wheat, and that would be popular. But there are one or two other things that we could do. However, we are not expecting a bad Price Review this year. Nevertheless, there is another year to cone, and so they continue to hole under a Conservative Government; but they did that last year.
  So the security, about which hon. Members opposite spoke, of the 1957 Act, which leads up to the 1958 Measure, has as its purpose a change round. It stops the gradual increase in farmers' incomes as a result of their growing efficiency, knowledge and greater output. It makes them feel the adverse effects of the Government's inflationary policy, which the Government will change one day and are in the course of changing now. But in the past the farmers have had to bear the full brunt of inflation. Although there is a greater quantity of money available, their incomes have gone down, and in terms of money they are much worse off than any other section of the community. That is the position n agriculture today from the farmers' point of view.
  What about the workers? The latest figures show that over 15,000 agricultural workers are registered as unemployed and are drawing benefit—the biggest number that we have had for
  1338
  many years. But that is after a decline of nearly 20,000 workers annually in the last five years. There has been a decline in the number of workers employed on the land, but we still have over 15,000 unemployed. Therefore, are the agricultural workers likely to be happy about the Bill? Of what advantage is it to them? The Government said that it was of no advantage to them, and that that was why they did not discuss the matter with them. Was not that a mistake? If they are partners in the industry, should not they have been taken into consultation in matters relative to their industry? The Government made a mistake, and we ought not to give them the chance to make another mistake of such a nature.
  I want to meet, if I can, the other point which hon. Gentlemen opposite have raised time after time, namely, that no other industry has to submit to supervision. No other industry is in the same position as agriculture in the occupation of the land. Other industries build factories and work in them.
  Major H. Legge-Bourke: What would the hon. Gentleman build a factory on—air?
  Mr. Dye: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is below his normal self.
  Mr. Paget: Impossible.
  Mr. Dye: It may be impossible, but it is true.
  The agricultural industry is in a peculiar position because it has both the obligation and privilege of occupying and cultivating the land. This, of course, is the issue on which the two sides of the House are in conflict. Hon. Gentlemen opposite take the view that if a person buys or inherits a farm he has an absolute right to do what he likes with it so long as he can pay his way.
  Mr. Osborne: Of course, he has a responsibility to the State. We believe in that as much as the hon. Gentleman, and I beg him to believe that.
  Mr. Dye: Then there is no purpose in the Bill. If one believes that the person in ownership of the land has an absolute right to do what he likes with it, why limit his responsibilities in any way? Of course, we take the contrary view that the person at present in occupation of the land and who is guaranteed by the nation

  1339
  a fair reward for his occupation and proper use of the land has, as the hon. Gentleman says, an obligation to the State. If he has that obligation and does not carry it out in a proper way, we say that he ought, first, to be put under supervision, and then, if he still does the same, that the State has every right to dispossess him. The hon. Gentleman dare not follow his logic to that extent. I was glad of his interruption. If he will only follow his own logic and admit that the occupant of land has obligations to the State, then the State has every right to say, "Those who do not honour their obligations will have their occupation terminated."
  The party opposite says, "Let things follow their natural course as they used to do years ago". What happened then? A bad farmer's farm gradually went from bad to worse until, through bankruptcy, he went out of business and sold up. Then somebody had to take over, clean the land and work hard for years to clear it of rubbish and obstructions before he could get a proper living out of it. We do not believe that is right.
  What happened in the 1930s? Farming went down, and, when the war came, the Coalition Government had to spend millions of pounds on equipment to clear millions of acres of land which had tumbled down in the years between the two wars and bring it back into cultivation. We live in a dangerous time, and whoever is responsible for governing this country ought to see that our land is farmed in such a way that, if we again go into a war, it is in tip-top condition and able to produce enough to feed the nation in time of emergency and will not necessitate the carrying out of capital clearing work in order to make good the deficiencies of the previous years.
  On those two grounds—that the occupier of the land has an obligation and that the nation's need is that its agricultural land should be properly cultivated and farmed—the duty falls upon the Government to ensure that the obligation is carried out continuously. The party opposite does not believe that. It may believe that there will never be another war. I have forgotten the exact phrase used by the Prime Minister——
  Mr. George Darling: "There ain't going to be a war."
  Mr. Dye: That was it. The hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne), however, often does not believe the Prime Minister, and nobody can blame him for that.
  Mr. Osborne: Nonsense.
  Mr. Dye: We live not in the prospect of an all-out conflict, but in times of economic necessity. If we are to feed our people without an undue call upon imports from hard currency areas, our land should be farmed efficiently. It cannot then be argued that we should support in occupation people who do not farm according to the best known principles of husbandry.
  There is another and very sound reason. Through subsidies, the people are called upon to support agriculture. If millions of people who, through their taxes, help to maintain farming see somebody in occupation—and there are many such people—who does not properly farm his land, they think that their money is being wasted, and they are quite right.
  Mr. Osborne: The hon. Member says that there are thousands of farmers——
  Mr. Dye: I did not say "thousands". I said "many" farmers.
  Mr. Osborne: I should like to see HANSARD tomorrow. The hon. Member said that there are many farmers who are not farming properly despite the fact that Part II of the 1947 Act has been in operation.
  Mr. Dye: No, it has not been.
  Mr. Osborne: It is still in operation and has been throughout the years. Therefore, if Part II is as effective as the hon. Member is trying to make out, surely these bad farms should not exist.
  Mr. Dye: The hon. Member is showing himself to be stupid. The argument which has come from the Front Bench is that Part II has not been operated during the last three or four years, although it is on the Statute Book. The reason why Part II is being removed by the Government——
  Mr. E. G. Gooch: It does not work.
  Mr. Dye: —is that they say it has not worked. They do not want it to work.
  Mr. Gooch: They have not worked it.
  Mr. Dye: The other great argument put forward by hon. Members opposite is that public opinion is against Part II. We are given that argument by hon. Members opposite in Norfolk as well as in this House.
  I was putting forward the argument that if many people who contribute to the financing and subsidising of agriculture see that certain farmers are getting a living without farming properly, they will take the view that the guarantees to agriculture should be stopped. Hon. Members opposite came into my constituency at the last election and the previous one. They said nothing themselves but read extracts from the speeches of hon. Members on this side and said that the Labour Party's policy in agriculture was to stop the featherbedding of farming. The farmers, however, have lived to see the day when the Government have taken the feathers out of their beds. It is they who have taken from the farmers the standard of living with which they were left in 1951. Every year that the Tory Government have gone on, not only have there been fewer people employed on the land, but the amount of money for the farmer has decreased, in addition to a fall in its value.
  How, then, can we on this side be expected to support a Bill like this? We had the chance to have a preview of the speech given yesterday by the Minister. He came to dine with his friends in South Norfolk, at Diss, nearly a fortnight ago. We have a report of his speech and much of it is word for word the same as he spoke yesterday.
  Mr. Gooch: It was last Saturday night that the Minister made his speech.
  Mr. Dye: I am willing to be corrected, but as the report of the speech is in the issue of the Press for Friday, 14th March, I should have thought it was the Saturday before last. Nevertheless, it is the same speech.
  In that speech, the Minister said that the Government had no moral right to dispossess farmers and that the purpose
  1342
  of the Bill was not to raise rents wholesale immediately. He went on, however, to say that the outcome of the Bill would be that rents would rise. The hon. and gallant Member opposite, of course, entirely agrees.
  Major Legge-Bourke: Is the hon. Member referring to me?
  Mr. Dye: There is another hon. and gallant Member opposite. The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) and I are quite good friends. The only difference between us is that I am likely to stay here and he is likely to go.
  A neighbouring tenant farmer came up to me in Dereham market place last Friday week and said, "My landlord has been in communication with me about raising the rent. We were discussing it, but this morning I got a letter saying that he no longer wished to carry on those negotiations in view of the Bill that is now coming before the House of Commons." What does that landlord expect? He certainly does not expect that his position will be weakened. It has been said over and over again by hon. Members opposite that the right way to adjust rents is by negotiation, but the trouble, according to the party opposite, is that those negotiations have not led to sufficiently high rents to suit the interest of the landlords. The Bill, therefore, is designed, by directive to arbitrators, to ensure that when a tenant is unwilling to agree to what he considers to be too high a rent, the rent will be fixed, not on the basis of a sitting tenancy——
  Mr. Grant-Ferris: It is a fair rent.
  Mr. Dye: —not as a fair rent, but on the basis that the farm is open to let.
  Mr. Grant-Ferris: It is to be a fair rent.
  Mr. Dye: No, it is not. There is a difference between a fair rent and the rent of a farm which is fixed by scarcity value. That is the difference.
  The party opposite wants to enable rents to be raised to the level which would prevail if individual farms became vacant and there were many potential tenants. That is the unfairness of this proposal. If all farms became vacant at the same time and there were a good number of applicants, they would not be

  1343
  in competition. Individual farmers would say, "I will have this one. You have that one, and we will each negotiate the rent." But if only one farm in a hundred becomes vacant and twenty people want it they compete for it, and it is that higher level of rent that the party opposite wants to see prevail throughout the country.
  Mr. Grant-Ferris: It is no good paying a rent which is more than the farm will reasonably bring in. Surely, there must be a relationship between a reasonable rent and what the occupier hopes to get out of the farm.
  Mr. Dye: That is just the interruption I wanted, because the party opposite then goes on to say that whatever the rent of the farm may be, the average of rent throughout the country will be taken into consideration at the next Annual Price Review and prices will be raised in order that tenants can pay higher rents to the landlords. That, of course, is the answer, and that is what the party opposite wants to bring about. It wants to ensure that landlords will have no difficulty whatsoever in enforcing the rents, at whatever level they are fixed. The level of rents will be taken into consideration in the Annual Price Review and the tenant will be told that although his rent might be higher than the average, yet, because of the average, he will be expected to pay. The arbitrators will be placed in that position.
  Do hon. Members wonder that the National Farmers' Union is against the Bill? The Union would be a little missing up top if it supported it. It would certainly be in the wrong with its membership, who will want to see the Bill fought in Committee and opposed through all its stages. That is what we on this side of the House must do. We must give our minds to this task and fight the Bill in Committee, in the House and throughout the country as a retrograde step, as an attempt to put agriculture back into the shadows of the last century and the dark days between the two world wars.
  7.35 p.m.
  Sir David Robertson: The hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Dye) referred to the millions of pounds of taxpayers'
  1344
  money which have been ploughed into agriculture since 1939. But it started a long time before that, during the time of the Neville Chamberlain Government in the early 1930s, though, of course, the process was greatly accelerated during the war and since.
  The hon. Member accused right hon. and hon. Members on this side of the House of wanting to bring about a lesser recoupment and a smaller profit to farmers. But is not the nation entitled to believe that the results of all these millions of pounds ploughed back to rehabilitate the land, to renew it and overcome the neglect of the past, should have brought about improvements resulting in greater efficiency and lower costs?
  Is the hon. Member trying to tell the House that the only industry which must be fully protected with high profits, when we are entering a period of world competition and possible recession, is the agricultural industry? Should not farmers be expected to meet that competition by producing more of a higher quality at lower cost? I do not, however, heartily approve of the Bill.
  The hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West was also against a free market in rents. He wants rents to remain fixed, but not on the basis of the true value of what a farm would fetch between a willing landlord and a willing tenant. The hon. Member wants, for the time being, something lower than that. Surely, that would be grossly unfair. It is against all the natural laws. A fundamental test in the acquisition of a farm by any tenant is whether or not he can make money out of it. No landlord would get away with a fantastic rent from a skilled agriculturist like the hon. Member, in Norfolk or in Scotland.
  I am a townsman and I am diffident about intervening in a debate on agriculture, but I have the responsibility and the duty to intervene. After being born and bred in a big city I found, when I went up to my ancestral home in Caithness and Sutherland, an impressive quality about the people who live on the land. The quality revealed in landowners, farmers, crofters and farmworkers was quite a revelation, and the more time I spent there the more I saw it. Relations between everyone connected with agriculture in the Highlands of Scotland are very good indeed.

  1345
  I saw on television the other night my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Leather) being cross-examined by Mr. Mankowitz. My hon. Friend said that he believed in a classless society. The nearest that I have seen to a classless society has been in the Highlands. It is only in the big cities that we get unreal and unnatural values.
  The Opposition have made many complaints today, but we have made tremendous progress in agriculture since the days to which the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West, referred. As a nation, we have every reason for pride in what has been achieved. I am old enough to remember times which were worse than 1921. I remember 1900, when four emigrant ships leaving the Clyde every week carried whole farming families away because they could not afford to live and work on the land. Those were the hideous days of unrestricted free trade, when produce that we could grow here was being dumped on our shores.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: The hon. Member should be careful. The Minister is listening.
  Sir D. Robertson: Farms all over the North of Scotland were to let.
  Hon. Members should consider the transformation that has taken place by today. I do not know why some hon. Members opposite appear to be amused. I take pride in what has been done to bring about this change, and so should hon. Members opposite. I say with the utmost sincerity that the party opposite has played a great part in bringing about that change. I was a Member of the House during the war, when all hon. Members were on the same side. We should realise that these changes have taken place. I remember the 10s. lambs, about which we heard so much when I fought my first Election in the North of Scotland, in 1950. All that seems to have gone. Now, long-term security for a long-term job has been achieved. It is on that issue, however, that I find fault with the Bill. Britain can never afford to throw away what has been achieved, and what has brought it about.
  The Government were wholly justified in reviewing and correcting the two greatest evils, namely, unfair rents and the unfairness of being unable to sell a
  1346
  farm at a fair market value. In my constituency today, farms are let at rents which were fair in 1904, and they are still let at the same rents. I remember saying to a farmer—a very good farmer—"Why do not you buy your farm?" He said, "Oh, no, I would not think of buying my farm; I am much better off as I am now." I wonder whether he really is better off, because this situation can only lead to a breakdown between landlord and tenant. It is one of the main reasons why the Bill has been introduced. No landlord can continua to accept a 1904 rent and pay 1958 costs.
  I have here a letter, which I received today, from one of the most knowledgeable men in the North of Scotland, a man of very great experience, who has been on the administrative side of farming all his life. He says:
  "In effect, the landlord has to pay maintenance to tradesmen at 20s. in the £when, in most cases, the rent £ he is receiving from his tenant is worth about 6s."
  I cannot put it more forcibly than that. This is not an isolated case. I believe that all the farms in the North of Scotland are let at pre-1939 rents. They may not all be let at 1904 rents, but they are all pre-1939. No landlord can continue to subsidise his tenant. In some cases, as a previous speaker said, the tenant, in return for paying a far too low rent, is doing some of the repairs and making improvements. I support the Bill in its effort to correct these injustices.
  I am against, however, the proposed tenure change, which provides that where a farmer dies his son has no right to succeed him. There are now very few leases in Scotland, and the usual system of farm tenure is called tacit relocation, which has been referred to by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser), and under which the farms are let upon a yearly basis. Under this system, when a farmer who has an adult son dies, that son succeeds him. Under the provisions of the Bill, however, if the owner so desires he may give the son immediate notice, in which case he must leave within a year. If the father is a leaseholder, and the lease still has some years to run, the son will be allowed to continue until the lease expires, but then he may have to go.
  That is wrong. I regard farming as a family job. Who created the farms? The landlords did not do so; it was

  1347
  the people—the men, women and children who cleared the stones and boulders and levelled the land. They did a backbreaking job on rather low wages. The descendants of those people are the farmers of today. I visit many farms, because I enjoy doing so. I am only one generation removed from the land. Not all Members of Parliament are far from the land. When I visit these farms, I see the farmer, his wife and their children all working on the farm.
  I am not attracted by the plea put forward on behalf of the second sons by my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan), who is very knowledgeable on the subject. In Scotland, second sons and third sons have always been able to look after themselves. But I am against this provision, and I urge my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, and the Joint Under-Secretary to give very serious consideration to this aspect of the problem.
  This is a common grievance among farmers in the North of Scotland. They are shaken at the prospect. They have put everything they had into farming, and have been successful, in spite of penal freight rates. They have made a profitable job out of it. But they are very disturbed at the thought that their sons may not be allowed to succeed them, and that whole families may be turned out. I am in favour of a free market, but I appeal to my right hon. Friend, if he wants more flexibility—I think that was the word used—in order that young blood may come into the industry, to create more farms. One half of Scotland consists of the Highland area. It lost thousands of acres in the bad dumping days.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Bad landlords.
  Sir D. Robertson: No; not bad landlords. Thousands of acres have gone back to moorland, not because of bad landlords, but because of unrestricted free trade.
  Mr. Hughes: What about the clearances?
  Sir D. Robertson: The hon. Member will be talking about the Bank Rate next.
  During the war, air pictures were taken of all parts of the country, and I have
  1348
  seen scores of these pictures. In the pictures of the Highlands it is possible to see, through the heather, the marks of the plough. Successive Governments of both parties have failed to carry out land reclamation. I do not know one landowner in my constituency who has reclaimed an acre of land. I like sport, when I have the time for it and can afford it, but I think that the great sporting estates have put up a very bad show. The county agricultural executive committees have done a very good job in gently supervising and controlling farmers, but they have failed lamentably in supervising the large estates, whose owners want to see deer instead of cattle beasts, sheep and human beings.
  There is a great field of energy there for the Government, or any other Government that may be in power. There has been a lamentable failure to reclaim land which was once fertile. It will take effort and money, but in this age, with all the miracles that have been performed since 1939 in science, machinery and the availability of labour, it should be possible.
  We have labour available. In my constituency the unemployment figure is 7·2 per cent, and it would be far better if those who were out of work were put to work creating farms. They might not return a fraction of 1 per cent. dividend for the first ten years, but they would be a fine national investment. If the Government want flexibility, let them have it in that way. We can no longer continue to live on the fat of our grandfathers.
  I can tell my right hon. Friend—with complete certainty that what I am saying is true—that in Caithness, Sutherland, Ross-shire, Inverness-shire and Argyllshire, how often one sees a solitary farm that has been carved out of a hill that could carry many more. Every time I cross the Ord, going North, I look down on the attractive farm on Langwell, where the Prime Minister had a few days' well-earned relaxation last year. Langwell is in the parish of Latheron, the most densely populated of the northern parishes until a century ago. There were many people there then, but one hardly sees anybody now. This lovely farm seems to be unique.
  My two counties once carried about 100,000 people, when the population of

  1349
  Scotland was about one-third of what it is today, when there are only 13,000 people in Sutherland. There were all those people there in that area, with the sea on three sides. Surely the main call now, if we are looking for greater productivity and more food, is to give better chances for good and up-and-coming farmers—the kind of people that Britain cannot afford to lose.
  I shall not vote against this Bill. I do not like the lack of security and I do not like the Clause that enables a landlord to say that, if the farmer dies, the family must leave the farm. I do not feel deeply about the county executive committee situation, but I am surprised that they are to be done away with. I hope that my right hon. Friends are not doing it to free the kind of landlord I am referring to, the man who has not reclaimed an acre of land and has refused to sell land of low agricultural value to the Forestry Commission so that the trees may be grown which are so urgently needed by the nation.
  I do not think much of such landlords. There may not be many of them. I think that most landlords are very good indeed. But there are some such men who own areas as great as that of a highland parish—thousands of acres. I feel that the Government would be failing in their duty, and the Opposition, too, if they did not help. [HON. MEMBERS: "Come over this side."] I am a staunch Tory and I always will be. I am pleading now for things that are right and which have no political content so far as I am concerned.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite are not blameless. They failed to do anything for a good many years. This is something which is not one-sided. I know that Governments have many preoccupations and many responsibilities. The trouble is that we have only six Members of Parliament to represent the Highland counties—Orkney and Shetland, Caithness and Sutherland, Ross and Cromarty, Inverness and the rest. If we had 60 Members of Parliament for the Highlands it would be a different story.
  7.52 p.m.
  Mr. Victor Collins: The hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) always convinces the House that he at least sincerely believes every word he
  1350
  says. The hon. Gentleman believes that he is a staunch Tory and he is very proud of it, although during his speeches he always manages to say many things with which hon. Members on this side of the House can agree. He put in a plea for measures to get rid of unemployment and mentioned that 7·2 per cent. of the people in his constituency were unemployed. It is obvious, however, that there is no reference to such measures in this Bill. If anything, the Bill will make it even more difficult to find employment for that 7·2 per cent. of his constituents. The only way in which such a fine investment as the hon. Member referred to might be made would be by public investment in the land of the kind that hon. Members on this side of the House have advocated.
  I said that the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland always believed everything he said to be true, but tonight his memory, on occasions, was not quite accurate, particularly when he referred to the period of the 1930's and said that his own party did a great deal then for agriculture. I need only remind the hon. Gentleman that shortly before the war the late Mr. Neville Chamberlain, when dealing with expenditure on agriculture, said "What fools we should look if war did not come." That was scarcely an example of a great deal being done for agriculture by the party opposite before the war.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) described the Bill as a betrayal of the farming industry, which it certainly is. He also described it as having the hall-mark of the doctrinaire blindness of right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I do not think it has the hall-mark of blindness. I believe that hon. Members opposite have known just what they intended to do about farming ever since 1947. What they wanted to ensure was that other people did not see what they were doing and in that respect, judging from the rural election results from 1950 to 1955, they have been successful. Had the farming community really seen the trend of the policy of the party opposite, I think that those election results would have been very different. The anger among the farming community over this Bill, and the position of the Government regarding agriculture, would have been apparent very much sooner.

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  The position of the Government today is no surprise to those of us who were in this House in 1945, particularly those who served on the Standing Committee which dealt with the 1947 Act. We could not be deceived about the attitude towards agriculture adopted by the party opposite. Yesterday the Minister tried to jump on the Labour Party's farm wagon by speaking of the 1947 Act almost as though it were an agreed Measure, one which we had put through together and had administered together. I suppose that the right hon. Gentleman has forgotten what happened over Section 1 of that Act during the discussions in this House. I am sure my hon. Friends have not forgotten that hon. Members opposite, led by the noble Lord, Viscount Crookshank, the former right hon. Member for Gainsborough, voted against Clause 1, which represented the "guts" of the Bill. That, in my view, indicated the attitude of the party opposite at that time, although hon. Members opposite protested that the vote was on a technicality. I believe their behaviour since then has proved what I always thought to be the case, that their objections were fundamental.
  Hon. Members opposite do not believe in the kind of agricultural system in which we on this side of the House believe. We know that the prosperity of the land, and increased production and efficiency depend upon stability, a settled policy, security of tenure, guaranteed prices and assured markets. That is exactly what was provided by the 1947 Act. I say that Tory policy always has been, and always will be, opposed to these things. Hon. Members opposite want a free-for-all. This Bill is another example of that, though it is applied in particular to rents and to security and the supervision of bad farmers and estate owners.
  The other day the Leader of the House made a speech in which he told his audience that, before the end of this Government, controls of all kinds would be removed. We cannot have stability and a long-term settled policy on the land unless there is a form of control. The best example of that was the kind of control described yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley as self-imposed, self-regulated and
  1352
  agreed to whole-heartedly by the farming community. The Tory Party wants a free-for-all, with the cards stacked in favour of the big man. They want the advantages to go, not to the people who produce the goods, but to those who move them about. They have made sure that conditions were created so that the producers got less—those who did the hardest and the dirtiest work got less— while those who did the easiest jobs got the most.
  Though hon. Members opposite may disagree, I maintain that in effect over recent years they have destroyed Part I of the 1947 Act. I have heard one or two hon. Members opposite say that Part I of the 1947 Act is likely to be threatened; but I say that it is no longer threatened—it has gone. There are no longer guaranteed prices or markets. When hon. Members opposite substituted support prices for guaranteed prices, in effect they did away with the guarantees. It is no use pretending that the support price, when it is finally decided, makes a uniform figure of what each farmer actually gets. Of course it does not. The difference in that part of East Anglia where I farm is that barley of equal quality has commanded prices of between 95s. and 70s. a quarter, which makes a difference of several pounds a ton. That difference is due largely, not to inefficiency, but to accidents of weather or other conditions for which farmers were not responsible.
  The guaranteed price has gone. There is no longer any kind of stability. The farmer no longer knows what price to expect. What has happened in the last two months with regard to pigs? There has been a difference of more than 10s. per score for bacon pigs over the last seven weeks, certainly not more than two months. That is a difference of 25 per cent. on the price that the farmers were getting two months ago. What kind of stability or guaranteed market is that? Does not the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland agree that the farmer who is breeding pigs can have no chance of forecasting the price when the pigs are of bacon weight? The price may be 41s. 7d. or 52s. a score. Whether it is one price or the other has nothing to do with the farmer; he has no control over it. I challenge the Minister or any Government supporter to dispute the truth of what I say, that in the examples

  1353
  I have given the guaranteed price and guaranteed market are no more. For that reason it is true to say that Part I of the Act is no more.
  I understood yesterday from the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser), who is not present now, that most Labour Members did not know the difference between a heifer and a plough. In today's debate, most hon. Members on this side of the House have given at least an indication of knowledge of these matters. I have owned and been responsible for running a small farm for the last thirty-five years, ever since I was a boy. While I do not pretend to very expert knowledge I claim that what I have put forward about the matters I have mentioned is undeniable.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Dye), in a first-class speech, gave reasons why farmers in the National Farmers' Union oppose the Bill. Although my hon. Friend did not use these words, I think his argument could be summed up by saying that farmers have completely lost whatever confidence they have had in the Government's intentions for agriculture. That is what their uneasiness stems from. They do not trust the Government any more. A lot of other people do not trust the Government any more, to judge from by-election results. Farmers have very good reason to mistrust the Government's intentions, because the Tories have run down their industry. Farmers have been making a very great contribution to the national economy for many years. They have achieved a 60 per cent. increase in their contribution. If they had not been loyally and devotedly attached to the Government, the Conservative Party would not be in office and would, economically speaking, have been sunk without trace.
  The contribution which the farmers have made to the national economy is mainly responsible for the present Government still being in office, but while profits in industry have been increasing all the time, farmers have been compelled to accept prices which have fallen short of recoupment of increased costs in the last five years by £135 million. In the last three years other sections of the population have had an increased income of 25 per cent., but farmers' incomes have dropped by 8 per cent. They are
  1354
  the only producing class in the community of whom that can be said.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture said yesterday that the price arrangements of the 1947 Act had been buttressed by the 1957 Act. For how much longer are they to be buttressed? Would anybody like to forecast with confidence that when we hear the details of the Price Review tomorrow prices will not have fallen by 2½ per cent. or by £30 million? I have no knowledge and do not pretend to any prescience in these matters, but the farming community will have backed a winner if it gets any change out of the £30 million loss tomorrow.
  That is not the only way of dropping prices and farming incomes. What about altering the grading? No legislation and no regulation would be required; the Government need only make the grading a bit stiffer. Then the poor devil who thought his pigs would get 52s. a score would find that he gets only 45s. or 42s. The Minister may not think that that would happen or is likely to happen but I ask him to take that possibility very seriously indeed. It would be not only a cut of £30 million, which would be legitimate under the 1957 Act, which buttresses the 1947 Act, but a difference in grading of such a character that many small farmers would even be put right out of business.
  Another thing that makes farmers very uneasy—my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North-West touched on this—is the question of how long the subsidies will go on if supervision is ending. Government supporters have assured us that the Bill will make no difference to it. They say that the 1957 Act has buttressed the 1947 prices, which can fall by only 2½ per cent. a year, so farmers have nothing to fear. When the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby) came into a television programme one Sunday afternoon a few weeks ago, discussing the proposals of the Bill, the question of dropping supervision was raised. He said that nothing could justify subsidies if there was no guarantee of efficient farming. Perhaps the hon. Member says things on Sunday which are rather different from the things he says in this House. Only about three weeks ago he was making what might he described as a postprandial statement.

  1355
  I do not know, but I believe they all have an excellent lunch before these broadcasts.
  Mr. John Hare: Does the hon. Member think that an inefficient farmer can make a living even under the subsidy system?
  Mr. Collins: It depends to some extent on the nature of the land he is farming. If the farmer is inefficient to the point where he is not farming his land properly he can be dealt with under the 1947 Act as it exists now, because he will be guilty of inefficient farming. What the right hon. Gentleman is now suggesting, by inference, is that the 2½ per cent. and the £30 million cut to be revealed tomorrow, with the stiffer grading, will by economic means remove the inefficient farmer. That may well be, but in fact it will also remove thousands of poor devils working on marginal farms who are not inefficient, but who are sweating their hearts out to get a living and at the same time doing a very valuable job for the country.
  I should not like the right hon. Gentleman to miss one syllable of what his hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire said on television. He said:
  "Nothing could justify subsidies if there was no guarantee of farming efficiency."
  That is exactly what the farmers themselves are thinking. They are getting—we will not call it a subsidy—assistance in their farming, and it is one of the foundations on which that provision has been accepted that there is an implied guarantee of efficiency, and that the inefficient farmers will be eliminated, though not unfairly and not harshly.
  My right hon. Friend, quoted figures of 4,200 farmers who have been placed under supervision, out of whom fewer than 400 have not made good. I am not so much concerned with the comparatively small number of 4,200, but with the far larger number of people who have not been put under supervision, who, because they saw what was going on with other farmers, have brightened up their ideas and are now very much better farmers. I agree with the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire; I think that there is every reason to fear these subsidy cuts if the present Government stay in office.
  1356
  Having destroyed the guaranteed markets and prices, the Government by this Bill are now destroying the safeguards of good husbandry and good estate management. They are doing it deliberately, not, as my right hon. Friend said, out of some kind of doctrinaire blindness, but with their eyes wide open, because they always intended to do it.
  I remember in 1948 travelling in Europe with a very important personage who was a member of the National Farmers' Union. He asked me which, in my opinion, of the Conservative Members of Parliament then in the House would or could be the Minister of Agriculture if the Tories were returned to power. I told him that if such a disaster happened, there would be only one person who, in my view, could take that office without disaster to farming, and that was the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Sir T. Dugdale). I always thought I was right. I thought so until this afternoon. I always thought that the right hon. Gentleman was the only one who would resign rather than betray the land. We all know what the party opposite did to him.
  When I heard the speech of the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks this afternoon, I recalled that my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley described the Minister as an acrobat. The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks has not got the build required for a trapeze artist, but he seemed to me to be guilty of a little mental gymnastics. Apart from him, I know of no one on the other side of the House who would really have stood by the land and would have stood by what we tried to do in the 1947 Act. I think that what hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite have done since then has proved the point.
  The Minister claimed that the Bill would create opportunities for skilled young farmers. What a hope they have got. The right hon. Gentleman is fully aware of the great barriers to young farmers today. They have to have a great deal of capital and they must saddle themselves with a rent which is based not on the ordinary value of the land, but on the vacant possession value of the farm, which must be an inflated value. I do not know if there is the same difference in value as there is with ordinary houses, but we certainly know how much more

  1357
  valuable is a house with vacant possession compared with a house with a tenant in occupation. If the proportions are anything like the same with farms, we know the way that rents will go, and it is written into this Bill that the value of the farm must have regard to the vacant possession value. I therefore say that the Bill will completely blight whatever hopes any young farmers may have had.
  The National Farmers' Union recognised that the 1947 Act made agriculture, for the first time, an integrated part of the national economy, and it accepted the obligation of efficiency as a necessary corollary. By forty-eight counties to one, the Union has opposed the Government's proposals and, to their credit, the landowners have taken the same view. They resent and repudiate the Minister's suggestion that he is doing these things to please them.
  The Government have, in fact, prevented the agricultural executive committees from working properly, and now say that they are no good and want to get rid of them. Hon. Members opposite say that that is not the intention, and that there will still be a great deal of work for them to do. Whatever protestations there are from the other side of the House, I say that these committees have done a wonderful job.
  On the subject of rents, hon. Members opposite have conjured up the willing landlord, but I should like to hear something more about the willing or satisfied tenant. Some landlords might seek to raise rents with the sole object of securing possession. Personally, I am not opposed to the rents of farms, under proper safeguards, being increased. I think that increased rents could be a production incentive. I think quite honestly that many farms are under-rented, and that a more economic rent could be a compelling urge towards greater efficiency. Indeed, the fixing of an economic rent in relation to the potentialities of the farm and the value of the fixed equipment is a necessary first step towards the public ownership of agricultural land. It would indeed be ironic if one outcome of these fears and sufferings of farmers under this Government should be a demand from the farmers themselves for State ownership.
  In fact, the great weakness of the system of guaranteed prices is that they must
  1358
  be arranged at such a level as to keep the marginal farmer in production, and nothing in this Bill will cure that. Landlords everywhere will seek to increase rents on good and bad farms alike; and on bad farms the position will become impossible, because the proposed machinery for compelling the landlord to observe the rules of good estate management is so cumbrous, and, for ordinary farmers, so costly, that it will not be used. I agree with my right hon. Friend that the farmer's only alternative will be to scratch a living as best he can and to discharge any labour which he can possibly do without, by farming at the lowest possible level.
  If I am right, such a policy can have only one result. Home production will suffer a decline, with a consequent increase in our balance of payments problem, because we shall have to import more food. I believe that the party opposite, by this and other measures, will return the land, our greatest asset, to the condition in which it was in the 'thirties —the condition from which it was rescued by the war and by the post-war policy pursued by the Labour Party, led by my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley. I think that, in fact, the wheel has come full circle, and I say that we shall fight the Bill for all we are worth.
  I hope, and confidently believe, that when they get the opportunity the electors of this country, particularly in the rural areas, will put some new spokes in the Tory wheel. I do not believe that right hon. Gentlemen on the opposite benches will be there as a Government very much longer, but that we shall very soon have the opportunity to stop the decline that has been going on and to start to build up agriculture again.
  8.20 p.m.
  Mr. John MacLeod: The hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. Collins) will not expect me, at this stage, to cover the wide field he has traversed in raising such questions as the Price Review. I want to be very brief in my speech and deal with matters in the Bill, as I know that other hon. Members are anxious to take part in the debate.
  I represent a Highland constituency in which there are many different types of farming and where probably there are

  1359
  the most independent people in Britain. On the east coast there is a good narrow fringe of arable land and further to the west there are great glens and deer forests. There is no doubt that in that area farmers have played their part in increasing efficiency and agricultural production, and have taken full advantage of the legislation which has been passed since the war.
  I wish to make my remarks as general as possible on this Second Reading. I think all will agree that the 1957 Act promoted the well-being of agriculture. I agree with the Minister, who said that it enshrined and buttressed the guarantees introduced by the 1947 Act. I think that all hon. Members agree that we must give farmers special support. I certainly welcome the ending of compulsory dispossessions and supervision. Farmers may have put up with that in the past, but all free-minded people must agree that close Government supervision is repugnant to the majority of people.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Will the hon. Member say how many have been dispossessed in his county?
  Mr. MacLeod: I do not know.
  Mr. Hughes: None.
  Mr. MacLeod: There is no doubt that the general tenor of speeches from the Opposition has been that we must keep these compulsory powers or we shall not get full efficiency from the agricultural community. I do not believe that that is the case at all. I do not want to go over the arguments. They were put very cogently by the hon. and learned Member for Cardigan (Mr. Bowen).
  On the question of rents, I think that most people agree that owners of agricultural property should get a fair return for their investment. The words in Clause 2 are reasonable in principle. The legal wording has been questioned. The Clause says that
  "… the rent properly payable in respect of a holding shall be the rent at which, …the holding might reasonably be expected to be let in the open market by a willing landlord, …".
  It seems fair enough and, in my opinion, the instructions to be given to arbitrators are a good thing. Surely many people would agree that the system of landlord and tenant should
  1360
  remain in existence. It has been pointed out that the question of rents is considered in the Price Review.
  I admit quite freely that in the case of Scotland the question of security of tenure did disturb me. This is referred to particularly in Clause 6. Security of tenure is cherished more dearly in Scotland than I think it is in England. Certainly that is so in a crofting constituency like mine. We are not now dealing with crofts. Perhaps that is just as well, but legislation passed in relation to crofters will prove a good thing for development of agricultural areas in the North. Crofts are recognised as good training ground for further agricultural development.
  I am sure that efficient and progressive farmers will agree that the system of landlord and tenant should remain. Quite a number of people believe that today the system is breaking down because of the rigidity of tenure. Although I agree with the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Dye) that owner-occupiership is the best thing that can be carried out and that thereby a man has his own capital and life in the land, surely that does not deny the fact that in circumstances which will exist for some time to come we must maintain the system of landlord and tenant.
  I had some misgivings about Clause 6, but, on reflection, I think that was the best compromise which could be arrived at. There is, after all, security of tenure for the sitting tenant. It would be a very foolish landlord who would turn out someone who was farming well and efficiently. If he did there would have to be very exceptional circumstances.
  I wish to refer to one point which was dealt with indirectly by my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson). The First Schedule says:
  "Section thirty-six (which relates to special directions as to stocking of deer forests and grouse moors) shall cease to have effect."
  Like many other people in the North, I enjoy sport. There are many landowners in the North who enjoy their sport, but still make good use of the land in their areas. I cannot quite believe what my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland said. I have constituents who have reclaimed many acres of forest land. A lot of nonsense

  1361
  has been talked in the past about deer forests. There is some land in deer forests which will feed nothing but deer, and that very poorly.
  I believe that legislation must be introduced in respect of deer control. Interesting experiments have also been taking place in fertilisation methods in Scotland. With modern drainage and fertilising, using modern methods, such as fertilising from the air, much of this land can be brought back into production. I hope that the Minister will watch the position and will give all the encouragement he can to bring a lot of that land back into production. Landlords have certainly played their part, but there is still much to be done.
  Under present day conditions I believe that the Bill will improve the partnership between the State, the landlord, the tenant and the consumer. We all hope that it will benefit those who carry on the great and essential work of agriculture.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: As I understand the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. John MacLeod), he wishes to convey to us the fact that he does not understand very much of the Bill and that what he does understand he does not much like, but that, after two somewhat wearisome days, he has done his duty to his constituents. I am sure we all hope that they will be grateful.
  This is an odd sort of Bill. Its leading feature is that it is a Bill that nobody wants. The National Farmers' Union does not want it, the Country Landowners' Association does not want it, and the workers, who were not even told about it or consulted, very much disliked it when they saw it. Indeed, it is a unique triumph for the man in Whitehall. He is the only chap who wants it. When we have a parade through the Lobbies tonight it will be a parade of hon. Members opposite in favour of the proposition, but against all the opinion of the industry, that it is the man in Whitehall who knows best.
  Mr. Archer Baldwin: May I put the hon. and learned Member right in what he said about the Country Landowners' Association? He has not brought himself up to date. The Association's latest statement is,
  1362
  "…the C.L.A. has decided that from the point of view of landownership, it would be unreasonable to oppose Clause 1 of the Bill."
  Mr. Paget: I agree that it was odd to find the Country Landowners' Association in opposition to the Conservative Party. Right up to the last moment the Association was in opposition to the Conservative Party, and I congratulate hon. Members opposite because, if they have had no other triumph, at least they have kicked the landlords into line.
  This is an odd Bill for another reason. Clause 2 provides that the basis of rent arbitration shall be the rent at which it
  "might reasonably be expected to be let in the open market."
  On this the Minister of Agriculture has ventured to give us two interpretations. I refer to col. 1122 of yesterday's HANSARD. I quote:
  "The words 'reasonable' and 'willing' are used to avoid any risk that arbitrators will take account of freak or fancy rents …"
  The odd point about that is that the word "reasonable" is not used. The words which are used are what "might reasonably be expected". Even the most unreasonable of landlords might have reasonable expectations of the market.
  The Minister went on to say:
  "Accordingly, the rent fixed on this formula will be a fair rent which would be offered by a steady and responsible farmer to whom a willing landlord would be ready to entrust the cultivation of his land. I hope that this will clear up certain misconceptions which I have already seen appearing in the Press."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th March, 1958; Vol. 584, c. 1122.]
  That interpretation would be more convincing if the right hon. Gentleman were not by this very Bill putting all question of interpretation outside his power and bringing to an end any influence which he might have on it, because by Clause 5 he no longer appoints the arbitrators.
  He no longer has any influence on the principles on which they work. The matter is to be handed over to the lawyers, and I think that the farming community should be warned that his interpretations of this Clause are perfectly worthless. I rather dislike this process of handing to lawyers that which is quite outside their field. We have seen poor old Cohen making a perfect ass of himself by producing a Report on a matter on which he was quite incompetent to hold an opinion, let alone to

  1363
  express one. We are now being told that lawyers are to make value judgments as to how husbandry is conducted.
  What could be more absurd? I heartily dislike this process. My profession is unpopular enough as it is, and its reputation is not improved by lawyers being given jobs wholly outside their competence. But one thing that is reasonably within their competence to decide is this question. My profession is competent to decide the factual question of what a farm may reasonably be expected to let at in the open market.
  I think that, as a lawyer, I am in a good deal better position than is the right hon. Gentleman to advise the farming community on how the lawyers will interpret that. The market value is the marginal value. It is the value which the highest bidder will be prepared to give, and it does not matter in the least what the motive of the highest bidder is. If there are a number of men in the market who want farms for tax evasion purposes, who want farms in order to have a convenient expense account, the rent which those gentlemen are prepared to pay is the market value, because that, if there are a number of them in the market, is the rent which may reasonably be expected to be received in the market——
  Mr. John MacLeod Mr. John MacLeod rose——
  Mr. Paget: No, on this point I am speaking as a lawyer, and I will give way only to a lawyer. I venture to say that this is a matter which, unlike the other matters, the lawyer may be expected to know, and that is how the lawyer interprets words.
  I shall not go into details on the Bill, for the very simple reason that they are not very important. I do not suppose that anybody is under the delusion that the Bill will become law. It will die a slow death in Standing Committee. No Government will be lunatic enough to insist on a Bill which has this sort of reception, and which will be opposed as this Measure will be opposed. It will never come to this Chamber again——
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: What about the Rent Act?
  Mr. Paget: A lot of people wanted the Rent Act, but no one wants this nonsense. Indeed, the only significance of this is
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  that, curiously enough, it is this Bill, and not much worse, much more noxious things that have been done over a period of time that have at last awakened the N.F.U. to the betrayal that agriculture is suffering. At last, it has scratched its head and asked itself, "You know, when they put up rents, which means that, as an agricultural expense, increases of rent are to be paid by the Chancellor, and when they deny themselves any influence over the efficiency of production, are they really going to continue to underwrite prices, the level of which they have put so entirely out of their control? "The answer is, of course not. At long last the farmers have had the sense to see that they are being betrayed, as they have been betrayed ever since this Government came into power—and not only by this Government, but by all their Conservative predecessors.
  Let us see what the 1947 bargain was and what it meant. The 1947 bargain was simply this. We and the farmers agreed, for considerations, that farming should retain its position in the national economy, that it should retain its share of the national income. Of course, the 1947 Act was only a part of that bargain. It was the means whereby that bargain was to be operated. The important thing was how that Act was used, and particularly how it has been used since 1952. During the period of office of the Labour Government we held the bargain. Agriculture retained its share of the national income. Throughout our period of office agriculture's share of the national income was 2·9. Year by year under the Tories it has dropped. Agriculture's share of the national income is now 2·2. More than a quarter of agriculture's slice of the national cake has gone in these four years, in spite of production, in spite of the fact that on efficiency and productivity figures, agriculture has risen from 100 to 140 which is more than twice the average rate in industry.
  Therefore, while the rate of increased productivity has doubled the average rate in industry, a quarter of agriculture's share in the national income has gone. On the investment side it has been declining. In fact, this year, when we get the figures, I very much doubt whether agricultural investment will be found even to equal a fair assessment of agricultural depreciation. I think it may become a minus figure this year.

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  Agriculture has lost 100,000 of its labour force because other industries can offer better terms, being allowed a higher level of profit. I am not going into the economic explanation of why this has happened or why it will inevitably continue to happen. Any hon. Members who are interested in that can read it in the OFFICIAL REPORT of our agriculture debate on 7th May last, when I explained it.
  At last the National Farmers' Union has realised what has been happening to this industry. This Bill, as I say, is not the cause. These things have already happened. Merely by defeating this Bill, which the National Farmers' Union will doubtless do with our assistance, will not put right this process of steadily depressing the agricultural industry.
  What has really happened? There has been movement towards a free market; a switch from price to subsidy and deficiency payment, and the operation of the 1957 Act which served only to consolidate decline. If ever there was a fraudulent Act it was that one. There is the pretence of a guarantee. Have hon. Gentlemen considered how it really works? It is said to be a guarantee until 1960. Apply the percentage figures and one sees how much would be left in 1960. Is the support of agriculture running at about £300 million? How much would there be left by 1960 if these figures were applied?
  By 1960, the wheat subsidy will have disappeared because the guaranteed price will be below world prices. This year, the wool guarantee will have disappeared because wool prices are below world prices. Apply that principle and the whole effectiveness of the guarantee, by applying the percentage reductions for which the Act calls—and, by implication, makes respectable—and one has an instrument for destroying the whole subsidy system. Apply the 2½ per cent. over a period of four years to a farmer earning an income of £500 a year at present. What will the result be in four years, assuming no change in costs? His income of £500 a year will be converted into a loss of £250 a year. That is the sort of security which the 1957 Act gives. Even this assumes level prices. Let us remember that, on to the 2½ per cent. or the 4 per cent., whichever be applied, must be added the depreciation of the currency which takes place.
  1366
  Is the hope of agriculture really to rest upon the confidence that prices will remain stable? I think it is a slender hope. Look at the record of the Government. We had a violently inflationary Government last year. That was a so-called incentive Budget. By September, they had lost their nerve and launched into a deflationary policy. Hardly had that deflationary policy got under way than they lost their nerve again, and the Chancellor was out. Now where are we going? A slump is developing in America. The Economist, which, it is true, has been wrong on almost every issue about which it has expressed an opinion, is now recommending an inflationary £150 million cut in taxes in the Budget.
  Does anybody imagine that, for any period of time, there will be stability in prices? Have we not yet learned enough to know that, if we are to have full employment and a rising production, there must be rising prices? But everything which conies from the inflation has to be added to what the farmers have already lost by the percentage cuts which the 1957 Act envisages. I know that it does not compel them, but it envisages them.
  I want to see the 1947 Act operated according to the spirit of the agreement. That is the way we look at it. Prices to farmers ought to be such as to give them a fair and consistent share of the national income. It ought to be done by prices. In war-time there could be ploughing grants, special fertiliser grants, and the rest; it was right and reasonable, in circumstances of shortage, for the Government to use support in order to inflate special areas of production in which there was a shortage.
  I do not think that that sort of thing is justified when we are not in shortage. When we are not in shortage, it ought to be a price. The farmer ought to know how to earn that price, whether he earns it by spending money on fertilisers, drains or silos, or anything else. To put subsidies on special production items is simply to try to farm from Whitehall. The price system is the system which ought to be adopted, and prices ought to be so arranged as to give the farmer his share of the national income.
  To conclude, I shall say a little on political philosophy, which may be of

  1367
  information to the National Farmers' Union which has at last woken up to what has been happening to its industry. First, this country is, and always has been, governed by interests. Secondly, within our system interests cannot be protected by a lobby. That is the basic lesson which our trade union movement learned. One can only protect one's interest by having the men here. It is no use having them in the lobby. That is our experience.
  As far as the Conservative Party is concerned, the farmers have had it. There is a fundamental conflict of interest between the money and industrial interest and the agricultural interest. Whenever the Tories are in power, we have retrenchment, economy and tax cuts. That means that agriculture has had it. This is not the second betrayal, as the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir D. Robertson) said. The years 1876 and 1900 were worse. Every time since Peel betrayed the party of the countryside this has happened when we have had a Conservative Administration. Agriculture has been destroyed.
  I say to the National Farmers' Union, "As far as we are concerned, there is no natural conflict between your interests and ours." There is a coalition of interests which makes the Labour Party. We have the interests of the primary producers at heart. There is only one interest within our ranks which may be in conflict, and that is the Co-operative movement. It has the sense to be here. How different the prospects of the countryside would be if in the next Labour Government—which will have a majority somewhere between 100 and 300 after the next election, whatever the farmers do—we had even thirty farmer Labour Members. If the agricultural community wakes up and puts its interest in the only place where it will be effective to protect, namely, on these benches, there is a chance, although it is doubtful now on either side, of saving the English countryside.
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Willey: I am delighted to follow my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). I enjoyed his political dissertation and his forceful and unanswerable indictment of the Government's agricultural policy.
  1368
  We are now reaching the end of our first two-day debate on agriculture for eleven years. We have had many excellent speeches from both sides of the House, although it seems to me that the logic of argument has stubbornly remained on this side. First, however, I should like to take the opportunity of saying how much we all enjoyed the birthday oration of my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams).
  After two days, it is difficult to think of a new point. It might almost seem an offensive exercise of dialectical dexterity, but I shall begin by saying something new. It seems to me that in showing their determination to push this Measure through the Government are acting with constitutional impropriety, certainly according to their own lights.
  I am not making a forecast as to the future, but it is quite clear that the Government have lost the confidence of the electorate. If the Government have lost the confidence of the electorate, they, of all people, have argued that there is a constitutional convention to avoid needless controversy. One thing that is quite clear is that the Bill is controversial, and acutely so, and against the wishes of all the articulate sections of the agricultural industry.
  This action of the Government is not, however, the arrogance of strength. The Minister is a very nice fellow—I suspect that that is why he has been pushed into the Ministry—but he is not a Napoleon and his predecessor will not be an "iron Chancellor." We know that this is the weakness born of Suez, that the Government are the prisoners of their own reactionary elements and that they have to make this sporadic but constant appeasement to their own extreme Right wing. We know well enough that the Bill did not originate in the Ministry. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary need not look surprised.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. J. B. Godber): I am not surprised at anything that the hon. Member says.
  Mr. Willey: We all know what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said about the Arton Wilson Report. He showed quite clearly the Departmental view. The

  1369
  Bill is simple, straightforward appeasement to the wild men, to the Crichel Downers who hounded out of office the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks. (Sir T. Dugdale), the wild men who treated the right hon. Gentleman, whom we were delighted to hear today, so shabbily that even they ought now to show some remorse.
  I recognise that the Minister, with understandable personal prudence, is taking a different course. The hare is hunting with the hounds. Unfortunately, this is the kind of weakness that breeds weakness. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was surprised to find himself so opposed, but, faced with the united opposition of the industry, he was afraid to negotiate.
  This is stubbornness born of weakness. Whereas the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor was once stigmatised by the National Farmers' Union as being a cotton-wool wall of indecision, the present Minister is just stubborn, rigid and stiff with fear. He is afraid to talk with representatives of the industry. After all, the National Farmers' Union could not have been more conciliatory about the Franks Report. The right hon. Gentleman has been very unfair to the Union. The Union said at once, in October, that it was willing to accept the Franks Report in relation to supervision orders, although it thoroughly disagreed with the Report. In parentheses, I would say that the Franks Report does not condemn or criticise Part II of the Agriculture Act, 1947. The recommendations of the Report were, in that Committee's view, designed to strengthen Part II.
  In any case, in the light of the Franks Report and of our experience over the past ten years, and in the light of our own party policy statement on personal freedom, everybody on this side of the House was willing to reconsider and, I hope, possibly strengthen Part II of the 1947 Act. Why was not the right hon. Gentleman willing to talk about these matters with representatives of the industry? I can understand at once the farmers themselves being a little apprehensive. They have had time to reflect about the 1957 Act. Although the Home Secretary talks about doubling the standard of living and the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, only the other day, spoke of us as being on the brink of unimagined prosperity, the
  1370
  farmers have found that as a result of the 1957 Act they are on an escalator and that at each Price Review the Minister barks, "Going down only."
  I can understand the farmers being apprehensive because, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton and my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley pointed out, whereas the rest of the community have been able to increase their incomes during the past few years, the farmers have suffered a loss of income over the last six years. At the last Price Review they had an under-recoupment of £24 million. Can the Minister tell us the extent of the under-recoupment this time?
  The Minister's argument about the 1957 Act was, at best, a distinction without a difference. It seems to me that as long as the present Government are in office it is only a moderator of decline. Who can quarrel with my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley in describing all this as bogus? The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks talked about long-term assurance but he had to concede that there was Section 8 of the 1957 Act, and even Section 8 exists in its present form only because of the Opposition. If the farmers have one consolation, however, it is surely that the Conservatives will not be in office in 1960.
  Although farmers and the agricultural community were apprehensive, and although they did' not entirely accept the Franks Report, in spite of the National Farmers' Union having been extraordinarily conciliatory, they were all willing to discuss—but the Government refused. Although, in the eyes of everyone, the 1947 Act is a bargain struck by the industry, now that the Government are altering and amending it, they refuse, in panic, to discuss it with the people with whom the bargain was struck. Although the Government's own White Paper talks about consultations with the industry's leaders the Government, nevertheless, have refused to discuss these matters with the industry.
  Mr. Hare: I am sure that the hon. Member does not wish to get this wrong. In answer to a Written Question, on 17th March, I said that the National Farmers' Union had declined to take part in a discussion on Part II. It is very unfair to give the impression that the Government refused to consult the Union.
  Mr. Willey: I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his helpful interruption.
  The National Farmers' Union declined to discuss the matter only when the Government said that there was nothing to discuss. They said that in anticipation of any such discussion they had taken a decision to repeal Part II. This is absolutely disastrous, because it is another blow to the confidence of the industry. We shall not get a marginal effort out of farmers if they have no confidence. We shall get retrenchment, grassing down, and the rest. I am told that Dan Archer is seriously thinking of giving up farming.
  The whole House is aware of the state of the industry. Let me call in aid a newspaper which is certainly not Socialist and, I believe, is not very friendly towards the agriculture industry, namely, the Financial Times. Quite recently it said:
  "The investment resources of the industry—in a period of development—have been seriously depleted. … But the roots of anxiety go deeper. They spring from an awareness that for years now—ever since decontrol —the decisions of government … have been slowly eroding the foundations on which agricultural prosperity rests. New policies are depriving the farmer of his privileged place in the home market—sapping his strength as a stabilising influence on the economy—isolating him as a dependant of the taxpayer and—with the washing away of the disciplinary provisions of the 1947 Act—leaving him aloft on a precarious and soaring structure of subsidies."
  That is how the Financial Times described his position,
  "aloft on a precarious and soaring structure of subsidies."
  That is why, today, we are getting a spirit of dependence and opportunism which is already beginning to debilitate the agricultural industry.
  Mr. Godber: What is the date of that quotation?
  Mr. Wiley: It is 24th January—after the Government announced their intention to repeal Part II.
  Mr. Dye: And after Mr. Oliver Poole joined the Financial Times.
  Mr. Willey: This feeling is aggravated by the present Bill. In this atmosphere, with the farmer
  "aloft on a precarious soaring structure of subsidies",
  1372
  it is absolutely fatal to create the impression that the British agricultural industry is expendable. That is what the Government are doing.
  Farmers are realists, They know that despite Viscount Tenby's claim that he would abolish the subsidies they are now running at £300 million a year. Even more remarkable than the Government's failure to attain their own objective is that, at a time when the subsidies have crept back to £300 million a year, prices in the shops have soared, notwithstanding falling world prices. While there is a subsidy element of this magnitude we must pay attention to retail prices. But even more remarkable than that is the fact that while the subsidy has crept up to £300 million a year, farming incomes, at the same time, have fallen dramatically.
  As I have said before, this is a thoroughly bad Bill for the taxpayer, for the consumer and for the producer. Farmers are realists by nature. They know, particularly in these circumstances, that if there is a subvention of £300 million of taxpayers' money there ought to be some measure of public control and public accountability. They realise that today the Government are not only repealing Part II of the 1947 Act, but are not making any alternative suggestion about public accountability. They realise what this means; that whatever the Government say—and why should farmers pay any attention to Tory promises?—it means a declaration by the Government that British agriculture is expendable. That is why farmers are concerned and worried.
  Everyone who has taken part in this debate appreciates the present difficulties of agriculture. Surely everyone equally appreciates that what is demanded above everything else is a vigorous attack upon rising costs and a concerted and determined effort to reduce them. We have not heard a word about this from the Government during this debate, or from hon. Members on the back benches opposite. Whatever may be the merits of the argument about agricultural rents —it is astonishing that the Government have gone further than the landlords suggested, and of all people the members of the C.L.A. must have been staggered at their proposals—we must have a determined effort to reduce costs.

  1373
  The argument about rents has been with us for a long time. The C.L.A. was campaigning at the time of the 1957 Act. But we heard nothing from the Government about rents then, and we have not been told why the Government are doing this now without waiting for the report of the Department of Estate Management, at Cambridge, about the level of rents. Whatever the merits of the argument, everyone must recognise that it is of overriding importance that in agriculture, with the aid of the Government, we have a determined effort to reduce costs. But the provisions in Clause 2 can only add to farming costs. That was conceded by the Minister. Incidentally, I do not know how we can attract young farmers to the industry by putting up the rents.
  Clause 2 can only accelerate the decline in farm incomes. As the Minister himself said that rents are to be taken into account for the purposes of the Price Review, Clause 2 can only inflate the soaring structure of subsidies and so prejudice the industry. At any rate, we have a recognition of the fact that the taxpayer will not only subsidise town rents through the National Assistance Board, but will subsidise the increase in country rents through the Price Review award.
  Even Clause 3 was not agreed by the N.F.U. The N.F.U. still believes that the provisions for security of tenure in the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1948, do not require amendment. The National Farmers' Union believes that what changes were desirable could have been made through direction.
  Even here we have not the agreement of the industry. The Clause was accepted under duress. It appears that by this Clause farmers are to get less security of tenure at a higher rent and that the Minister has again abrogated his responsibility, in his anxiety to avoid any suspicion of public accountability.
  Mr. Hare: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not want to mislead the House. I received a letter on 20th February from the National Farmers' Union on the point of security of tenure. It reads as follows:
  "It therefore only remains for me formally to confirm our acceptance of the wording proposed for a revised version of Section 25 (1) and to thank you for the kind tribute you pay in your final paragraph to the Union's negotiators."
  Mr. Wiley: I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has intervened. I will now tell him the precise statement made by the National Farmers' Union. It is this:
  "This Clause … gives effect to an agreement reached last autumn between the Country Landowners' Association and ourselves. It should be pointed out, however, that our attitude throughout has been (and indeed remains) that what changes were desirable in this section could have been made through administrative directions; but that it was only after the Minister of Agriculture had stated his firm conclusion that a change in the law itself was necessary, and had decided to amend it, that we responded to his final invitation to work out an agreed solution designed to give a change of emphasis to the security of tenure provisions."
  I cannot make the position any clearer. I can understand the Minister's embarrassment, because the Bill is a wanton provocation to a worried and perplexed industry. The farmers are urged to keep their production costs down—because if they rise they directly impinge upon the farmers' net income—but at this time the Government, by the Bill, have decided deliberately to put up costs.
  This Rent Act Government, which shall be remembered as the last Tory Government which deliberately set out to put the clock back, is so determined to make its last pay-off to the landlords that they have flown full in the face of the agricultural industry. They are completely oblivious and callous to the present difficulties which are disturbing this industry.
  Why have we had no constructive proposals from the Government to help the farmers to reduce costs? Why have we heard nothing about fertilisers? Is it not the fact that £34 million is syphoned off the agricultural industry by the fertiliser monopoly, and that British farmers are still paying higher prices for fertilisers than are the farmers in Denmark? Why have we not heard anything about cutting down the cost of feeding stuffs, or of implementing the promises of the Government to help farmers about credit? Why have these negotiations broken down?
  Why have we had no encouragement to farming co-operatives? Why are the Government cold-shouldering all the efforts of the farmers to provide more co-operative facilities? Why have the Government done nothing about marketing, when the farmers are desperately

  1375
  anxious to get markets where they will have a fair deal and not find the markets rigged against them? We are not getting a response, because the Government are hidebound by orthodox Tory philosophy. This doctrinaire attitude will be the ruin of the British farmer if the Government remain in office. It is no good talking about open markets, as the Bill does, or about a free market. The essential problem for British agriculture is to ensure to British agricultural production a larger share of the market than it would get on a free market.
  This is an extraordinarily difficult problem, but the farmer is not getting any help from the Government. He is not getting a response from the Government, because they are inhibited by the pressures of private interests. My hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) talked about the twin pillars we spoke of on both sides of the House when we discussed the Agriculture Bill in 1947—the twin pillars of stability and efficiency. Now, these twin pillars are being undermined by the shifting sands of profits and rents, and these are the guiding priorities of the present Government.
  This is a bad Bill, a mischievous Bill, a Bill causing needless controversy, and it is no good hon. Gentlemen opposite getting upset and complaining that my hon. Friends have referred to the Corn Production (Repeal) Act, 1921. This is, in fact, the most controversial agricultural legislation that we have had for a generation. It is sapping and destroying confidence in the farming community. It is speeding the decline of farming incomes. It is disheartening the county executive committees. We have had a couple of obituaries, one from the Minister and one from the Secretary of State for Scotland, but if the Minister wants any advice about this, let him consult the National Farmers' Union.
  Mr. Percivall Pott: Why?
  Mr. Wiley: Because the Union knows that it can speak for the farmers. It would do the hon. Gentleman good to give a little more heed to the views of the N.F.U., because the N.F.U. has said —and it is undeniable—that it will be very difficult to encourage the right sort of people to serve on these committees if this Bill becomes law.
  1376
  In 1947, the Government and the agricultural industry shook hands on a bargain. Now, without consulting the industry, the Government, remorselessly, step by step, are breaking faith. Last year, we had the Agriculture Act, 1957, and the Government then told the farmers not to worry about the ship because they were providing it with more commodious lifebelts. Now that the Government have begun to knock holes in the ship, the farmers have not only discovered that the water is cold but that the lifebelts are not all they thought they were. In fact, they are guaranteed to sink at the rate of 2½ per cent. per annum.
  If we get the Price Review tomorrow, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman why we should not have had it yesterday? We know that the determination was reached before yesterday——
  Mr. Hare: It is fair to point out to the hon. Gentleman that that is a hypothetical question.
  Mr. Willey: This is the first time that I knew that I could be hypothetical in referring to the past. I understand that the determination has been reached. Will the right hon. Gentleman deny that?
  Mr. Hare: The hon. Gentleman is now referring to the future, and saying that an announcement might be made about the Price Review.
  Mr. Willey: We will see. I notice that the Patronage Secretary is here. I gather that he has advised his right hon. Friend that if the Price Review had been announced yesterday he might have had another revolt on his hands.
  I think that, in fairness to the House, if the determination has been reached, we ought to have had an announcement before this debate.
  Mr. Douglas Marshall: Can the hon. Gentleman tell me when the Socialist Party announced a February Price Review other than on a Thursday?
  Mr. Wiley: I should need time to reflect upon that, because I do not see what that has to do with my question to the Minister.
  Mr. Pott: Today is Wednesday.
  Mr. Willey: Whether we get the Price Review tomorrow or not, this week is a black week for agriculture. It is a

  1377
  darkening of the shadow that is hanging over the industry. Farmers with long memories remember that the agricultural industry has been despicably betrayed before. They now recognise that this is another chapter in a second and even greater betrayal.
  9.26 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. J. B. Godber): We have had a very full debate, covering two days, and I shall seek to comment as far as I can on the points of substance that have been made. At the outset I must say that I regret very much the speech of the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams). More in sorrow than in anger I would tell him that it was not the kind of speech that this House is accustomed to hearing from him. I believe that in retrospect he will regret his speech as being unworthy of one whom we all like to look on as an elder statesman in our agricultural debates.
  During the course of my speech, I propose to deal with some of the points he made, but I think all who listened this afternoon will agree that, after the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks. (Sir T. Dugdale), there is little, if anything, left of the right hon. Member for Don Valley save his shame and discomfort. The speech of my right hon. Friend was a remarkably good one, which dealt very well and very effectively with the right hon. Member. On the general tenor of the right hon. Member's remarks, I merely say that it is unfortunate that in the whole of his speech he did not put forward a single constructive suggestion, or attempt to address his mind to problems confronting agriculture today. He appeared to be so immersed in the conditions of 1947 as to be unable to realise that the changed circumstances of today have made it necessary to review the legislation of 1947 and bring it up to date.
  Mr. Peart: Will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary permit me to intervene?
  Mr. Godber: No. I have been dealing with the right hon. Member for Don Valley. I will come to the speech of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) later.
  The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) has entertained us
  1378
  well in the last half hour. I do not think one can say more than that about his speech. The hon. Member gave us a quotation from the Financial Times. I am always happy to debate with the hon. Member on his own ground. He gave a quotation from the Financial Times of 24th January. I can give a quotation from the Financial Times of 14th March —very much more recently. In that issue, after discussing in detail the points in this Bill, the article closed as follows:
  "These are all reasonable measures, and not to introduce them would amount to a refusal to learn from experience, and to give the landowner a fairer deal. But another benefit can come from this bill if it goes through in its present form—and it is a timely one.
  For years now, ever since it was established, the National Agricultural Advisory Service has been hampered in its advisory functions by the ambiguity of the role of adviser. The farmer did not know in what capacity he came—was he a spy, a policeman, informer or friend? Did he come to verify, instruct or carry report? He was a Government man, and came from a Government office and the office was part of a Government machine that had power to put a farmer under supervision, even to take away his farm. This Bill removes these grounds for suspicion. Henceforth, the adviser can be taken at his face value, as a friend. For those who have the often unrewarding task of surmounting the mistrust of the uninstructed in agriculture, as well as for the uninstructed themselves, this can prove the strongest point in favour of a new Bill."
  That quotation from the Financial Times is more up to date than the hon. Member's. I always seek to be more up to date than the hon. Member.
  I believe that the whole House had been looking forward to something more from the hon. Member for Sunderland, North in his winding-up speech on the most interesting topic on which he intervened earlier—the nationalisation of the land. I realise the feelings of nervousness with which hon. Members opposite approach the subject, but after the earlier exchanges I think the hon. Member should have made the position of his party abundantly clear. They have been asked a simple question and we have not had a simple answer. I take it that we shall not get one tonight. It is a pity that hon. Members opposite are not prepared to tell the farmers where they stand at the moment on this issue.
  Mr. T. Williams: Like so many members of his party, the hon. Member has trotted out this red herring so often that we had better kill it at once.

  1379
  In 1953 this matter was before an annual conference which turned down the proposal for nationalisation of rented land by over 2 million votes. It has never been in the party proposals since.
  Mr. Godber: I take it that I am assured that there is no danger in the future of any nationalisation of the land by the Labour Party.
  Mr. Williams: The proposal for the nationalisation of rented land was turned down.
  Mr. Godber: I know that there are certain words in the Labour Party's rules which make it somewhat embarrassing for hon. Members to say anything more definite about it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Deal with the Bill."] I will deal with the Bill, but after the earlier exchanges I thought it only fair to bring these points out. Before I deal with the Bill, I want to take up another point made by the right hon. Member for Don Valley. [HON. MEMBERS: "Deal with the Bill."] I am replying to points made by the right hon. Member for Don Valley. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite have gone very wide in this debate and I am entitled to reply to the points which they have made.
  Before turning to the Bill I will deal with one point in particular which arose yesterday when the right hon. Gentleman stated that the farmers were let down in 1955. I challenged the right hon. Gentleman at that point and, with his usual agility, he managed to jump from a reference to 1955 and to talk about a reduction in the value of farmers' incomes from 1951 to 1958 in relation to their purchasing power in 1948. He made no further reference to the position in 1955 because he spoke about a period of years beyond that.
  The right hon. Gentleman knows, as every hon. Member knows, that by choosing one's base year with care it is possible to make figures prove anything. The right hon. Gentleman also knows, although many hon. Members may not remember, that in 1948 his Government gave what they called an injection of some £40 million into farmers' net incomes which, it was made clear to them, was intended to meet special capital expenditure linked with the emergency plans put into operation by the right hon. Gentleman in August, 1947. The year
  1380
  1948 was therefore a particularly valuable year for the right hon. Gentleman to choose as his base year. I would say, therefore, that by carefully choosing the base year he has given a distorted view.
  His argument was based on actual net income—this is important and it has been referred to by many hon. Members in the course of the debate—which is arrived at each year in the Price Review discussions, and in this case adjusted to the fall in the value of money since 1948. I think that a truer picture is shown by another figure which is also arrived at in the same discussions and which purports to show the spendable income of the farmers as opposed to their net income. The difference between those two is that the net income includes a figure for capital investment by the farmer. On the spendable income figure, adjusted to 1948 values, farmers' incomes have in fact risen by some 12 per cent. from 1948 to 1957. This puts the matter in a different perspective altogether. I do not propose to take it further at the moment because we shortly expect the announcement of the Annual Price Review.
  Mr. Williams: Since the hon. Member has challenged me, will he permit me to reply?
  Mr. Godber: Very gladly.
  Mr. Williams: In the three years 1951–52, 1952–53 and 1953–54 the average net income of farmers was £330 million. For the years 1954–55, 1955–56 and 1956–57 the average net income of farmers was £312 million. In the last three years, therefore, the net income of farmers has fallen in terms of £ notes and has been 6 per cent. lower than in the previous three years.
  Mr. Godber: The right hon. Gentleman is, of course, quoting actual, and not adjusted figures—[Interruption.] It has always been the assumption in these Price Review negotiations that any figures shall be adjusted to normal weather conditions, because farmers always take the risk of the weather. In fact, what I have stated is true. These are agreed figures that have been arrived at over the years, and I have merely tried to put the matter in its proper perspective.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to something else. Referring to what my

  1381
  right hon. Friend had said, that, in fact, the 1957 Act gave security, he said:
  "There never was a more bogus claim."
  He went on to say that
  "In the nine preceding years the average under-recoupment per annum was about 15 million "—
  Hon. Members: A year.
  Mr. Godber: Yes—per annum:
  "Under the terms of the 1957 Act the net income of the farming community can be reduced by £30 million per annum …"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th March, 1958; Vol. 584, c. 1138.]
  That is what he said. It is perfectly true, but what I want to tell him is that, in fact, the conditions facing the farming community, under whatever Government, of whatever colour, at the present time, are very different from those obtaining in 1947. In 1947, there was an acute world shortage of food, and, indeed, the prices the home farmer was getting were below world prices.
  The implementation of the 1947 Act during the whole of the time that hon. Members were in power cost that Government nothing at all. The condition is absolutely different today, when there are vast surpluses in the world, but we are standing by those pledges, and have reinforced them. That is the purpose of the 1957 Act. In today's conditions of over-supply we have reinforced the provisions of the 1947 Act, and it was to that that my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks was referring when he, too, was dealing with this point.
  For that reason, there is no question but that the 1957 Act does give a very considerable extra security under existing conditions——
  Mr. Williams: Would the hon. Gentleman agree—and I will make this as simple as possible—that the figures I stated were strictly accurate? I will not put it higher or lower than that.
  Mr. Godber: I have already said that, but I have tried to put them in their proper perspective. However, I would say that I interrupted the right hon. Gentleman only once, but he tries to take up every single one of my points.
  To come to the Bill—[Interruption.]—I was trying to deal specifically with the points made by right hon. Gentlemen—
  1382
  it embodies three main issues, and I should like to deal, first, with security of tenure, which is dealt with in Clause 3. I choose this first, because I think that it is undoubtedly the most important provision in the Bill, yet it has not received nearly so much attention from hon. Members opposite as have some other parts of the Bill.
  It is most important because, first, the landlord-and-tenant system is, and is likely to remain, the basis of our agriculture. Something over 60 per cent. of our land is still under tenancy. Secondly, the very proper security given to tenants by the 1947 Act has, in practice, proved to be too great, and has had the effect of over-safeguarding the inefficient tenant.
  The hon. Member for Workington yesterday did us the honour of quoting from one of our pamphlets. We all much appreciated that, and I should like to respond in similar vein. However, he had to use a pamphlet of 1951—he read the second edition. It was first published, I think, in 1950. I am much more up to date, because I have here a Fabian tract dated February, 1958. It is on land nationalisation, too, so I hope that the hon. Member for Sunderland, North will read it. A certain Mr. John Mackie, who was a Labour candidate at the last Election, said on the subject of security of tenure—I will not develop the nationalisation point—
  "Farmers have got too secure a tenure, and the landlords' powers have been too drastically curtailed, The machinery that was to fill this blank has been found wanting."
  We have a substantial support for our point of view from this source. [HON. MEMBERS: "Read on."]
  Mr. David Jones: Read the cover.
  Mr. Godber: I should like to, but I really must get on with my speech. I merely call that quotation in aid of what I was saying in relation to security of tenure. The effect of this has been that when farms have become vacant, landlords have tended more and more either to keep them in hand and farm them themselves or to sell them with vacant possession. The energetic young man without sufficient capital to purchase his farm has, therefore, in far too many cases been deprived of the opportunity to start farming on his own. This point has been

  1383
  made by several hon. Members, but I do not think that its importance has been sufficiently appreciated.
  These are facts which must be faced—and they have not been faced by hon. Members opposite—if our system of agriculture is to remain healthy, and no amount of prejudice against landlords by some hon. Members opposite can cover them up. This Bill, while retaining in the main the security given to tenants in the 1947 Act, at the same time makes it possible for landlords to play a more effective part in the running of their estates. It should reduce the artificial scarcity value which encourages sales with vacant possession today and it should enable the energetic young man more easily to obtain a tenancy.
  Clause 3 will prove to be much the most important point in the whole of the Bill in its long-term effect. I have always believed that Part III of the 1947 Act embodied the most important new provisions provided by that Act for the long-term benefit of the industry in the security it gave to the good tenant, which made it worth while for him to look after and improve the farm he occupied. In the same way, this Clause, which adjusts that security in the light of ten years' experience of the working of those provisions and seeks to remove the over-rigidity which in practice has emerged, will be of real value to the future health of the industry.
  I should like to repeat the congratulations to the leaders of the N.F.U. and the C.L.A. for the statesmanship which they have shown. This Clause has received the general approval of the House. There have been one or two criticisms, but I believe that it is the most important part of the Bill and that it will be shown to be so in its long-term effect.
  I now turn to the question of rents, about which we have heard a great deal. In fact, I might say that there has been a great deal of nonsense talked on this subject during the last two days from the benches opposite. It is important to get this matter in its proper perspective.
  There has never been rent control in agriculture. The question of rent is covered in Part III of the 1947 Act, in Section 35, and as consolidated in the 1948 Act it appears in Section 8. The
  1384
  operation of this Section has led to widely varying interpretations of the term
  "what rent should be properly payable".
  In different parts of the country, we have had different interpretations and we have merely taken advantage of this Bill to clarify the position. It is important to remember, too, that the great majority of farm rents are agreed between landlord and tenant, and that only a very small proportion of them come up for arbitration at all.
  On the question of the wording of this Clause, to which several of my hon. Friends have referred, my right hon. Friend has already explained that the words follow the precedent of the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1954. It is certainly not our intention that it should lead to or encourage in any way excessive rents, and I do not think these words could be interpreted by arbitrators in such a way, but we shall be perfectly willing in Committee to consider any suggestions about the precise form of words which are finally to emerge in the Bill.
  I should like to state quite categorically that this Clause does not provide for general sweeping increases in rents. It may, indeed it probably will, lead to some increases where existing rents are too low, but I put it quite bluntly to the House that it is not in the interests of good farming in this country for them to be too low. It merely leads to a low standard of maintenance of fixed equipment by the landlord with consequent direct effects on the efficiency of operation of the tenant himself. I come back again to the Fabian tract. In the previous page, after a reference to the benefits said to flow from nationalisation, it is said:
  "Quite apart from this, there is a strong case for an overall increase in rents. If a reasonably equipped farm comes on the market, it will make a rent of up to £5 an acre, and in some cases more, but the average rent for farms in this country is far less than half this. Therefore, if rents were generally increased to an economic level, it would be an added incentive to increase production."
  There we have a Daniel come to judgment once more.
  As regards the point made by the National Farmers' Union, quoted by the right hon. Member for Don Valley and others, in relation to the survey of rents now going on, I merely say that, with the Bill coming forward, it would have

  1385
  been ridiculous to hold up legislation on this point when there is ample evidence already of the difficulty caused to arbitrators in the interpretation of the phrase.
  I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite, since they have said a lot about rents, whether they really say that the open market rent is wrong. I should really like to know, and we have not had it clear yet. One or two hon. Gentlemen have, perhaps, indicated the answer. If they do take that view, then I call in aid what was said by the right hon. Member for Don Valley himself, during the passage of the 1947 Act. Does the right hon. Gentleman repudiate it? This is what he said on 13th March, 1947:
  "We think now that the best basis for an increase in rent is the actual rental value to the tenan.… It is the sort of rent, for instance, that a land owner could get on the open market."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A, 13th March, 1947; c. 517.]
  There we have it. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends agree with him. Fortified with his support, I will continue.
  Frankly, hon. Gentlemen opposite really are doing less than justice to themselves in relation to this particular matter of rent in some of the things they have said. I will remind them of what the right hon. Gentleman provided in his 1947 Act, which I always have by me. In Section 1 there is a part which is often quoted, but it goes on towards the end to say
  "… producing it at minimum prices consistently with proper remuneration and living conditions for farmers and workers in agriculture and an adequate return on capital invested in the industry."
  That is all we are seeking to do.
  Mr. Peart: The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends opposed it.
  Mr. Godber: That was on an entirely different subject, as the hon. Member for Workington knows already. If hon. Members opposite stand by that, then they must support this Clause on rents which we have introduced. Of that there can be no question at all.
  There are many matters on smaller points which I should have liked to deal with, but I must come to the main issue, the repeal of Part II. I have deliberately left it until last because, in spite of all we have heard about it from hon. Member after hon. Member opposite, I believe
  1386
  that it is almost the least important part of the whole Bill, in that it merely recognises the changed circumstances of recent years which made these disciplinary powers virtually inoperable, the change from desperate shortage of food, which made it a crime against the nation not to produce every ounce of food possible regardless of cost, to an abundance of supply.
  There has been the change in public opinion from a war-time attitude, ready to accept regulation and direction, to one which demands, and rightly demands, freedom of opportunity. There is the change from purchase by the Government of farmers' produce at fixed prices to a free market supported by deficiency payments. Finally, there is the Report of the Franks Committee which called for radical changes in the operation of these powers by A.E.C.s. All these have contributed to make the operation of these harsh disciplinary powers extremely difficult, if not impossible. It is for these reasons that we decided to terminate Part II of the 1947 Act.
  I have been told again and again in these two days that the farmers themselves do not want these powers done away with. It is perfectly true that the N.F.U. has opposed repeal, but in the last few months I have spoken to thousands of farmers, some prominent in the N.F.U. and others not so prominent. The only reason that I have discovered for their opposition is that they accepted Part II in 1947 as a quid pro quo for the guarantees in Part I of that Act. That is what hon. Members have been repeating these last two days. I have reminded them that those guarantees have been reinforced and re-enacted in Part I of the 1957 Act without reference to the disciplinary powers, and that the guarantees are given to agriculture in the same way as protection in other forms is given to other industries.
  This is not abnormal in any way, because many other countries give support to their agricultural industry without disciplinary powers. I have assured them — and reminded them that others, from the Prime Minister down, have assured them—that we stand by the guarantees so firmly given in the 1957 Act. When I remind them of these things, the only people who continue to doubt are those who say to me, "That is all right as long

  1387
  as your party is in power; but what will happen if the Socialists get in again? "The opposition to the repeal of Part II is, therefore, due to fear of the right hon. Member for Don Valley and his colleagues. The right hon. Gentleman can clear it away, though, if he is willing to give as unequivocal a promise of the continuation of the guarantees as my right hon. Friend has given. Would he like to give that promise now and so set farmers' minds at rest?
  Hon. Members: Answer.
  Mr. T. Williams: When we are charged with the responsibility for governing agriculture, we shall do the right thing, as we did earlier.
  Mr. Godber: I somehow thought that the right hon. Gentleman would not be very forthcoming. I now know why his hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Gooch), who was reported in the Farmer and Stock-breeder last week, was very careful in his words. He said:
  "When the obligations are removed, an excuse to scrap the guarantees could easily be found by a Government concerned with cutting down State support."
  We know now where we stand on this matter.
  I have been asked about the position of owner-occupiers. It is, of course, perfectly true that with the repeal of Part II there will no longer be any sanction against owner-occupiers. However, it is worth reminding hon. Members that, during the ten years of operation of this Act, only 105 owner-occupiers have been dispossessed. Can it be held that it has had such a very great effect? In today's conditions, however, when in the main the price guarantees operate only in relation to produce actually sold off the holding, the really bad owner-occupier who would have been liable to dispossession will get little help from the Exchequer, and his own inefficiency will force him to give up his holding. It is questionable how many of the 105 I have mentioned would not have already had to give up for other reasons even if Part II had not been used.
  Let us take a case in point which has been used quite a lot, the case of Lady Garbett. I have calculated that from start to finish about 4,000 hours of official
  1388
  time were spent in handling the different aspects of this case, apart from the time spent in farming the land after the Minister had taken possession of it. What happened in the end? The mortgagees applied for an order to sell the land. This was nothing to do with the Ministry's powers. Is not it reasonable to assume that this would have happened in any case, perhaps sooner rather than later, if Part II had never existed at all? The officials who were formerly called upon to administer these powers are now actively engaged in dealing with proposals under the Farm Improvement Scheme. What a far more valuable outlet for their energies and professional skill that is!
  In the course of his speech, the right hon. Gentleman referred to my reply in the House on 10th December, that county agricultural executive committees had been advised in recent years that the disciplinary powers should be used only in really bad cases. He then accused the Government of not trying to operate them at all. My right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks, dealt with this fully and conclusively this afternoon. He pointed out that he himself used these powers more than any other Minister. The figures for 1951 onwards are revealing. In 1951, there were 771 new supervision orders. In 1952, after the new drive by my right hon. Friend, they increased to 998, but, in spite of his efforts to make the Scheme work, they fell in 1953 to 543 and in 1954 to 236.
  Why did those numbers fall off subsequently? It was for the practical reasons that my right hon. Friend has so forcibly outlined today. Experience was showing that those complicated procedures were doing more harm than good and were increasingly out of tune with the spirit and the needs of the times. It is also important to remember that the fear of the use of these powers has made many of our less effective farmers hesitate to avail themselves of the advice of N.A.A.S. I gave a quotation earlier from the Financial Times which dealt adequately with that point.
  I realise the feeling of the right hon. Member for Don Valley on this subject. After all, it was he who put these powers on the Statute Book. I do not wish to detract—nor, I think, would any of my hon. Friends—in any way from the right hon. Gentleman's achievement in the 1947

  1389
  Act. I ask him seriously, however, after his outburst of yesterday—he has got it out of his system—to look dispassionately at the position after ten years of experience of his Act and to realise that the action that we are now taking is bringing the legislation on agriculture up to date in the light of present-day circumstances. That is the way in which to look at it.
  I should like to have dealt with many more of the points that have arisen. In particular, we have had from hon. Members opposite a lot of comments on the Franks Report which have surprised me. I was surprised to find how little interest so many of them apparently took in the rights of the individual in these matters; but I am sure that the country will note that and will note where the individual is to be protected. It was interesting to note that at least we have the support of the Liberal Party on this matter.
  The Bill, following so closely on the Act of 1957, shows the determination of
  the Government to ensure a healthy agricultural industry in which all sections—workers, tenants, owner-occupiers and landlords—can play their proper part as free men in a free economy. This is the first legislation on agriculture in recent years which has aroused party controversy. I regret that it should have done so, for British agriculture is too important for the nation, both on economic and on social grounds, to be a matter of bitter dispute between us.
  No single one of the arguments advanced against the Bill can be supported or sustained and I call on hon. Members opposite, even at this late stage, to withdraw their opposition to the Bill If they do not, we shall know that they go into the Lobby tonight solely on doctrinaire grounds and not out of any consideration for the real health and wellbeing of this great industry.
  Question put: —
  The House divided: Ayes 317, Noes 252.

  Division No. 72.]

  AYES

  [9.58 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Campbell, Sir David

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Aitken, W. T.

  Carr, Robert

  Gammans, Lady

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Channon, Sir Henry

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Gibson-Watt, D.

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Glover, D.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

  Cole, Norman

  Glyn, Col. Richard H.

  Arbuthnot, John

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Godber, J. B.

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Cooke, Robert

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan

  Ashton, H.

  Cooper, A. E.

  Goodhart, Philip

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Atkins, H. E.

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Gower, H. R.

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Corfield, Capt. F. V.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Grant, W. (Woodside)

  Balniel, Lord

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

  Barber, Anthony

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Green, A.

  Barlow, Sir John

  Crowdar,Petre(Ruislip—Northwood)

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Barter, John

  Currle, G. B. H.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Beamish, Col. Tufton

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Davies,Rt.Hon.Clement(Montgomery)

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Gurden, Harold

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Deedes, W. F.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Bidgood, J. C.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

  Bingham, R. M.

  du Cann, E. D. L.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Bishop, F. P.

  Duncan, Sir James

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Black, C. W.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Body, R. F.

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Boothby, Sir Robert

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Bossom, Sir Alfred

  Elliott,R.W.(Ne'castle upon Tyne.N.)

  Hay, John

  Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Erroll, F. J.

  Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

  Braine, B. R.

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Hesketh, R. F.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Fell, A.

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Finlay, Graeme

  Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Fisher, Nigel

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Bryan, P.

  Fort, R.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E,

  Foster, John

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Hobson,john(Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Butler,Rt.Hn.R.A. (Saffron Walden)

  Freeth, Denzil

  Holt, A. F.

  Hope, Lord John

  Macleod, Rt, Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Hornby, R. P.

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Russell, R. S.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Macmillan,Rt.Hn. Harold (Bromley)

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Sharples, R. C.

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Maddan, Martin

  Shepherd, William

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Howard, John (Test)

  Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral, J.

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Hurd, A. R.

  Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

  Speir, R. M.

  Hutchison, Michael Clark(E'bgh, S.)

  Marshall, Douglas

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark(E'b'gh, W.)

  Mathew, R.

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kes'gt'n, S.)

  Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

  Maude, Angus

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Hyde, Montgomery

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Hylton-Foster, Rt- Hon. Sir Harry

  Mawby, R. L.

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)

  Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Storey, S.

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Joseph, Sir Keith

  Nairn, D. L. S.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

  Neave, Airey

  Teeling, W.

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Temple, John M.

  Kaberry, D.

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Keegan, D.

  Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

  Kershaw, J. A.

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

  Kimball, M.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Kirk, P. M.

  Osborne, C.

  Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

  Lagden, G. W.

  Page, R. G.

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Lambton, Viscount

  Partridge, E.

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Peel, W. J.

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Leavey, J. A.

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Leburn, W. G.

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Wade, D. W.

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Pott, H. P.

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Wall, Patrick

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G.(Sutton Coldfield)

  Profumo, J. D.

  Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Longden, Gilbert

  Redmayne, M.

  Webbe, Sir H.

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Whitelaw, W. S. I.

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Wills, G. (Bridgwater)

  McAdden, S. J.

  Rippon, A. G. F.

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Robertson, Sir David

  Woollam, John Victor

  McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Mr. Heath and Mr. Oaksbott.

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Roper, Sir Harold

  NOES

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Champion, A. J.

  Albu, A. H.

  Boardman, H.

  Chapman, W. D.

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

  Clunie, J.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Bowles, F. G.

  Coldrick, W.

  Anderson, Frank

  Boyd, T. C.

  Coliick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Collins,V.J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Brookway, A. F.

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Baird, J.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Cove, W. G.

  Balfour, A.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Craddook, George (Bradford, S.)

  Bellenger, Rt, Hon, F. J.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Cronin, J. D.

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Burke, W. A.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Benson, Sir George

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Beswiok, Frank

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Callaghan, L, J.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Blackburn, F.

  Carmichael, J.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Deer, G.

  1392

  1393

  Delargy, H. J.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Randall, H. E.

  Diamond, John

  Ledger, R. J.

  Rankin, John

  Dodds, N. N.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Reeves, J.

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Reid, William

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Rhodes, H.

  Dye, S.

  Lewis, Arthur

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Edelman, M.

  Lipton, Marcus

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Logan, D. G.

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Royle, C.

  Edwards Robert (Bilston)

  McAlister, Mrs. Mary

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E,

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  McCann, J.

  Short, E. W.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  MacDermot, Niall

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Finch, H. J,

  McGhee, H. G.

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Fletcher, Eric

  Molnnes, J.

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  McLeavy, Frank

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd(Car'then)

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

  Gibson, C. W.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Snow, J. W.

  Gooch, E. G.

  Mahon, Simon

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Sparks, J. A.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

  Steele, T.

  Grey, C. F.

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Stonehouse, John

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mason, Roy

  Stones, W. (Consett)

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Hannan, W.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Stross, Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on. Trent, C.)

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

  Messer, Sir F.

  Swingler, S. T.

  Hastings, S.

  Mikardo, Ian

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Healey, Denis

  Monslow, W.

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  Moody, A. S.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Morrison, Rt.Hn.Herbert(Lewis'm,S.)

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

  Mort, D. L.

  Thornton, E.

  Holman, P.

  Moss, R.

  Timmons, J.

  Holmes, Horace

  Moyle, A.

  Tomney, F.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Mulley, F. W.

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Usborne, H. C.

  Howell, Denis (All Saints)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Viant, S. P.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

  Watkins, T. E.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  O'Brien, Sir Thomas

  Weitzman, D.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Oram, A. E.

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Hunter, A. E.

  Orbach, M.

  West, D. G.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Oswald, T.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Owen, W. J.

  White, Mrs. Elrene (E. Fint)

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Paget, R. T.

  Wigg, George

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B,

  Janner, B.

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Willey, Frederick

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena(Holbn & St.Pncs.S.)

  Parglter, G. A.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. (T. 'Don Valley)

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Parker, J.

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Paton, John

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A.Creech (Wakefield)

  Peart, T. F.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

  Pentland, N.

  Winterbottom, Richard

  Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Woof, R. E.

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Kenyon, C.

  Probert, A. R.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Proctor, W. T.

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Pryde, D. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Pearson

  Bill accordingly read a Second time.

  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

  AGRICULTURE
  Resolved,
  That it is expedient to authorise the payment into the Exchequer of penalties which under any Act of the present Session relating to agriculture are recoverable for breaches of conditions
  1396
  imposed in connection with the giving of consent to the operation of notices to quit agricultural holdings or parts of agricultural holdings.—[Mr. Godber.]
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  ADJOURNMENT
  Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Wills.]
  Adjourned accordingly at twelve minutes past Ten o'clock.

WIRELESS
  Medium-Wave and V.H.F. Receivers
  Medium-Wave and V.H.F. Receivers
  Northern Ireland
  Northern Ireland
  B.B.C. (Additional Medium Wavelength)
  B.B.C. (Additional Medium Wavelength)
POST OFFICE
  Burns Society (Deputation)
  Burns Society (Deputation)
  Inland Telegraph Service (Advisory Committee)
  Inland Telegraph Service (Advisory Committee)
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  The Victoria Cross
  The Victoria Cross
RAILWAYS
  Track Pollution
  Track Pollution
CIVIL AVIATION
  B.O.A.C. (Service to South America)
  B.O.A.C. (Service to South America)
  Independent Airline Operators
  Independent Airline Operators
  Britannia Aircraft
  Britannia Aircraft
  Yeadon—Amsterdam (Service)
  Yeadon—Amsterdam (Service)
ROADS
  Pedestrian Crossings (Accidents)
  Pedestrian Crossings (Accidents)
  Heavy Goods Vehicles (Accidents)
  Heavy Goods Vehicles (Accidents)
  Elstree Crossroads (Traffic Signals)
  Elstree Crossroads (Traffic Signals)
TRANSPORT
  Driving Licences (Power-Assisted Cycles)
  Driving Licences (Power-Assisted Cycles)
  Vehicle Tests (Veteran Cars and Cycles)
  Vehicle Tests (Veteran Cars and Cycles)
SHIPPING
  Geneva Conference (Flags of Convenience)
  Geneva Conference (Flags of Convenience)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Service Men (Death Certificates)
  Service Men (Death Certificates)
  Armed Services (Joint Facilities)
  Armed Services (Joint Facilities)
  British Forces, N.A.T.O. Countries (Motor Vehicle Fuel)
  British Forces, N.A.T.O. Countries (Motor Vehicle Fuel)
  Aircraft (Nuclear Weapons)
  Aircraft (Nuclear Weapons)
  WESTERN GERMANY (GENERAL NORSTAD'S TELEVISION BROADCAST)
  WESTERN GERMANY (GENERAL NORSTAD'S TELEVISION BROADCAST)
EMPLOYMENT
  Engineering and Building Industries, Newcastle-upon-Tyne
  Engineering and Building Industries, Newcastle-upon-Tyne
  Falkirk and Bonnybridge
  Falkirk and Bonnybridge
  Film Industry
  Film Industry
  Bideford
  Bideford
  Salford Area
  Salford Area
  Cotton Industry
  Cotton Industry
ROYAL NAVY
  Shore Establishments (Commercial Use)
  Shore Establishments (Commercial Use)
  The Victoria Cross
  The Victoria Cross
BRITISH ARMY
  The Victoria Cross
  The Victoria Cross
  Officers (Compulsory Retirement)
  Officers (Compulsory Retirement)
COLONIAL TERRITORIES
  Loans and Technical Assistance
  Loans and Technical Assistance
HONG KONG
  Dockyard Workers (Alternative Employment)
  Dockyard Workers (Alternative Employment)
EDUCATION
  National Certificate Courses
  National Certificate Courses
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Television and Film Programmes (Violence)
  Television and Film Programmes (Violence)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Anglo-Egyptian Refugees
  Anglo-Egyptian Refugees
SCOTLAND
  East Kilbride (Fatal Accident)
  East Kilbride (Fatal Accident)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Canned Foodstuffs
  Canned Foodstuffs
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  PROPOSED ATOMIC POWER STATION IN WALES
  2.35 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government if it is intended to publish the report of the inspector who held the public inquiry into the proposed erection of an atomic power station at Trawsfynydd; if not whether they will publish it; and further whether they will delay any ministerial decision until Parliament has had the opportunity of considering the report.]
  THE MINISTER OF POWER (LORD MILLS): My Lords, this inquiry was held jointly by inspectors representing my Ministry and the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, and copies of the report will be made available with the Minister's decision. Parliament has prescribed the procedure for dealing with such cases and has laid the responsibility for a decision upon me, as Minister of Power. The parties to the case have complied with the statutory procedure, and it is now for me to reach a decision as soon as I have considered and taken account of all the relevant factors.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, according to Press reports, the expert evidence given by the representatives of the Atomic Energy Authority at this inquiry on the vital question of public safety was somewhat divergent from the statements which the noble Lord himself has made in your Lordships' House, and that it is therefore thought that they must be the subject of some comment in the report which will be made to the noble Lord by the inspector? May I ask the noble Lord this question: Does he not
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  think, with his considerable and, if he will allow me to say so, well-deserved, reputation for being so jealous of the interests of the general public in matters of safety, that he might be given the opportunity, before he comes to a decision on this matter, to elucidate to Parliament, the divergences between what was stated at the inquiry and what he has stated in your Lordships' House? If there is any other way of doing this, would he please inform the House?
  The other question I should like to ask the noble Lord is this. He has said in his reply that there were two inspectors, one his own official conducting the inquiry, and the other an inspector from the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. Are we to expect two reports or only one? If there is to be only one, how are we to be cognisant of any divergences of view upon the question of amenity between the inspector who sat there, like Tweedledum, and his own official, who officiated as Tweedledee?
  LORD MILLS: My Lords, with the best will in the world, I find it quite impossible to answer either of the noble Lord's questions, because the report or reports has or have not yet reached me.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Would the noble Lord appreciate the difficulty in which Parliament finds itself?—I am sure he is very conscious of this. Would he take cognisance of this fact: that when he publishes the report, which will be the first time that Parliament will be able to have official cognisance of the evidence and the views of the inspectors, the noble Lord will have made his decision? When noble Lords who are Ministers make decisions, those decisions are very difficult to upset. Does the noble Lord not think that if there is a divergence of evidence between the experts of the Atomic Energy Authority upon this vital question of safety and the noble Lord's statements in this House, he should be provided with the opportunity of clearing them up?
  LORD MILLS: My Lords, I again find great difficulty in answering what is, I think, a rather hypothetical question. I have not seen the report. I do not know what conflict of evidence there has been. I do not know what my decision will be. Therefore I would rather not anticipate it by trying to look into the future.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Would the noble Lord mind answering the second part of my question, whether there will be two reports from the inspector or only one that will combine the opinions of the two?
  LORD MILLS: My Lords, I thought I made it clear in answer to the first supplementary question that I was unaware whether there would be one report or two.

  B.B.C. AND NEWS CHRONICLE COMPETITION
  2.40 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government if they do not consider the programme "Get Ahead" at present included in the television programmes of the B.B.C., in which the News Chronicle is providing £7,500 in prize money, to be in breach of the licence and agreement between the B.B.C. and the Postmaster-General in which the B.B.C. is forbidden to broadcast commercial advertisements or sponsored programmes; if not, whether this is not a change in Government policy, and whether it will in future be open to the B.B.C. to accept programmes sponsored in the same manner from any other manufacturer or seller of any other article in commerce.]
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I assume that the noble Lord has in mind Clause 14 of the British Broadcasting Corporation's Licence and Agreement. My right honourable friend the Postmaster-General has been informed by the B.B.C. that their object in broadcasting the competition organised by the News Chronicle was to provide entertainment for viewers. They did not, in any sense, as suggested in the noble Lord's Question accept this programme as an advertisement of the News Chronicle. The B.B.C. paid a fee to the News Chronicle in return for facilities to broadcast their competition, and this series cannot therefore be regarded as sponsored programmes.
  As regards the second part of the Question, I can assure noble Lords that
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  there has been no change in Government policy with regard to sponsored programmes. As to future programmes, Her Majesty's Government will follow the policy endorsed by successive Governments of leaving, programme-making to the B.B.C. within the terms of their Charter and Licence.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, might I draw the noble Lord's attention to Clause 14 of the Licence and Agreement between the Postmaster General and the B.B.C.? It says:
  "The Corporation shall not, without the consent in writing of the Postmaster General receive money or any valuable consideration from any person in respect of the sending or emitting, or the refraining from sending or emitting, any matter whatsoever by means of the stations or any of them, and shall not send or emit by means thereof any commercial advertisement or sponsored programme"
  May I further draw the noble Lord's attention to statements made in this matter by the Director-General of the B.B.C. in the publication of the E.B.C. Handbook, in which the Director-General says this:
  "Commercial advertisements may not be broadcast in any of the B.B.C.'s services. Like much else that is basic in the B.B.C.'s Constitution the policy of excluding advertisements goes hack to the first days of broadcasting by the British Broadcasting Company. The Licence granted to the Company by the Postmaster General in 1923 contained a clause to the effect that the Company must not receive money or other valuable consideration from any person in respect of the transmission of messages'. The intention of this clause has been maintained, with some variation of wording, in all subsequent licences and is embodied in Clause 14 of the B.B.C.'s current Licence and Agreement with the Postmaster General. The B.B.C. is forbidden under this Clause to broadcast commercial advertisements or sponsored programmes."
  Would the noble Lord not consider that £7,500 in prize money, without which the programme, puerile in any case, could never have come upon the screens, is sponsoring? Might I ask him this: if it is within the compass of the Licence, why, for thirty-three years, has the strict intention of Parliament not to allow the B.B.C. to put over commercial advertisements been maintained? And if what the noble Lord says is correct, would he agree with me that in future all you have to do is to substitute for the words News Chronicle the words "Daz", "Surf", or any detergent, "Lucozade" or anything else, and the B.B.C. is right into commercial advertising which is absolutely opposite to the intention of Parliament?
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am sorry to say that I think the noble Lord has got it all wrong. I should not agree with any of his suppositions but, to begin with, I should like to assure him that I am perfectly well aware of the contents of Clause 14. I am also quite well aware of the B.B.C.'s policy in this matter. But in order to dispel the confusion I will, if I may, take just a moment or two of your Lordships' time to tell the noble Lord what is the position. He has inferred that £7,500 is some consideration that the B.B.C. have received for broadcasting this competition. May I just get the picture straight?
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I did not say that.
  LORD CHESHAM: The noble Lord certainly referred to it under the context of a "valuable consideration". This competition is something devised by the News Chronicle, is its own property and is something in which it has a copyright. That competition takes place in the columns of the News Chronicle, and I am informed by the B.B.C. that that competition would take place whether or not it was televised. It is a matter for the B.B.C. to decide their own programme content, and in this case they decided that the programme, which the noble Lord thinks is puerile—the contents of any programme must be a matter of opinion—was one which was quite suitable to be included for the entertainment of viewers. They therefore took steps and paid a fee to obtain facilities for broadcasting what was going to take place, and there the matter rests.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, the noble Lord is surely completely wrong. This programme does not take place in the columns of the News Chronicle; it takes place upon the television screens of the B.B.C., and the B.B.C. have a valuable consideration, because if they had wanted to put this programme on and provide £7,500 worth of prize money they would have to do it themselves. Somebody comes along, to wit the News Chronicle, and gives them the £7,500. That, I submit to your Lordships and to the noble Lord, is valuable consideration, and I think that the Government have departed from what is the intention of Parliament in regard to the acceptance by the B.B.C. of sponsored television.
  LORD MOYNE: My Lords, may I put a point to the noble Lord for clarification, because I think there is obscurity in this matter? The firm to which I belong, who are advertisers, have promoted and given some poetry awards, and they recently organised a gathering at which the winning poems were read. It never occurred to any of us that the B.B.C. could have broadcast the proceedings. I should be interested to know whether it would have been in order for the B.B.C. to do so. I do not think it would have been, but I should be interested to know the noble Lord's view on that question.
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I think I can make that perfectly clear. It also refers to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, about "Daz"—or, I understood him to say, "Lucasade". The position is this. Anything which is promoted in this country may or may not be a suitable subject to be included in a television programme. It is entirely a matter for the B.B.C. to decide whether it may be produced without breach of its Licence and Charter, and if the B.B.C. think it is worth producing it is up to them to go out and get the facilities. But I can assure your Lordships (and this is where the "Daz" comes in) that if the B.B.C. had any reason to suspect that someone had put on a programme with the object of getting it on to television by some means or other, so that they would get publicity from it, that would not be acceptable. I hope that that makes the matter plain.
  I would repeat however that it is a matter for decision by the B.B.C. whether the items which they put on—whomsoever those items may be organised by—are of public interest. I would remind your Lordships that there are a number of events which take place in this country which are organised and arranged, particularly by newspapers, which are shown, and I do not think that in this case there is any transgression.
  LORD ARCHIBALD: My Lords, may I ask a question for clarification? I am trying to follow this matter very carefully and am not expressing any view as to the merit of the programme, but is the noble Lord asking the House to accept as a fact that this programme does not provide any advertising for the News Chronicle? And is he offering, as proof

  287
  of that, the fact that the B.B.C. are paying for the programme? Should it not be the other way round—that it is advertising and that the B.B.C. ought to be paid for showing it?
  LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, that could be said to be so if that were the case. This argument is a little difficult to follow, but as regards publicity I suppose it could be argued that if a programme is announced as being put on by a newspaper, that newspaper must receive some form of publicity from it. The point is that the publicity which the newspaper receives is entirely incidental to the decision to put on this programme because of its television value; and I do not think there can be anything wrong with that because it has happened on a number of occasions. I suppose one could argue legal points about what constitutes an advertisement—not being a lawyer myself I could not do it—but I suppose it must be, and has for some time been, accepted as inherent to some degree that the mention of the name of an organiser must constitute some form of publicity, although not an advertisement as such.
  LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister suggest that either the News Chronicle or the B.B.C. is entertaining?
  LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, may I ask whether it is not perfectly clear that the object of this competition is to sell the News Chronicle? That may be a very worthy object—I am not saying whether it is or not—but the more publicity the competition gets, presumably the more copies of the News Chronicle will be sold. Is that not advertising?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, if there is anything which is perfectly clear to noble Lords it is probably the fact that they have spent long enough on this
  288
  question. Perhaps the noble Lord will consider whether he wants a debate in a wider sense later on rather than continuing this discussion now.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl, the Leader of the House, because I know that the House objects to Question Time being turned into a debate, but would he accept from me the suggestion that the usual channels might consult to see whether the future policy of the B.B.C. in respect to advertising might not be a convenient subject for this House to debate after the Easter Recess?
  THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, that might be so. My noble friend has satisfied himself on this particular case and has told the House of the position, but if the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, wants to raise the matter later we will consider it.

  HORSE BREEDING BILL [H.L.]
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg to present a Bill to consolidate the Horse Breeding Act, 1918, and the Animals Act, 1948, and to move that it be read a first time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

  DRAMATIC AND MUSICAL PERFORMERS' PROTECTION BILL [H.L.]
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to present a Bill to consolidate the Dramatic and Musical Performers' Protection Act, 1925, and the provisions of the Copyright Act, 1956, amending it, and to move that it be read a first time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

  THE INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONFERENCE
  2.56 p.m.
  LORD LAWSON LORD LAWSON rose to call attention to the Report by Delegates of Her Majesty's Government to the International Labour Conference of 1957 (Cmnd. 328); and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I consider it a privilege to be able to ask your Lordships' attention for the consideration this Report from the International Labour Organisation. This is the Report of the three sections who attended the International Labour Conference this year in Geneva. The delegation was formed of representatives of the workers, the trade unions, and the employers and Government representatives, and dealt with a subject that is swiftly becoming of overwhelming importance to this country and to the world. And they made, I believe, a very useful contribution to solving the problem that is emerging.
  I have been rather astonished at the attention which has been given to this matter—I do not mean by your Lordships (although there is a very good attendance here today), but rather the general Parliamentary attention. When I first came to Parliament, nearly forty years ago, there was no such organisation as the International Labour Office. There was then a handful of people in the other place and in other parts of the world who were deeply concerned about the treatment meted out to the workers of this and various other countries of the world. But there was very little that they could do. The chief representative in our Parliament was a well-known gentleman, who has now passed away—the late Mr. J. W. Hills, who gave considerable time to this problem. When the First Great War was over, he managed to get governments seriously to consider this matter and set up the International Labour Office, which is now part of the United Nations.
  Your Lordship will remember that about two years ago, in 1956, there was quite a wave of concern which went through this country, and indeed through the world generally, about what is called automation. As for those in touch with this matter at the time, and the headlines in the newspapers, there was something like a state of alarm and despondency
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  growing; so much so that at the Conference in Geneva in 1956 the delegations; from all parts of the world asked the Director-General if he would give special attention to this matter and issue a special Report for the consideration of the next Conference. There is, of course, a Report issued every year to which the Conference gives its consideration, but in this year the Report was issued in two sections, the first section of which was devoted to automation and atomic energy. If I may presume to advise your Lordships upon this matter, I would advise anyone who is interested in this subject to study the Report. If we are not interested now, we shall be shortly, because of the general run-down of industry, which I am afraid is quickening. Having read all the information I could obtain about this; matter, I would say that the Report of the Director-General of the International Labour Organisation is the plainest, wisest and best-informed document that has been published upon this subject. As a matter of fact, the event of the Conference and the discussion at the Conference made that very clear.
  May I explain to your Lordships exactly what has occurred? Here, in the centre of the world of industry, there is placed this great organisation which, because of its peculiar advantages and its peculiar status, can claim information from all parts of the world, The organisation sends its representatives to visit industrial organisations; and they have available and at their disposal, I should say, the latest information upon everything that affects industry, and also perhaps the widest range of information about it that exists in any country in the world. Our own Ministry of Labour have reason to know of its great value and also of the great ability that is amassed within the four corners of the organisation.
  There were gathered in conference at Geneva, among the advanced countries and the average countries, as well as the others, the representatives of no fewer than seventy-three nations to consider this document. The remarkable effect of the debates—I shall deal with it again later—has been that the state of alarm which previously existed has now utterly departed; it has gone. The delegates have come back, in the main, with a grip upon the subject, with a clear vision as

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  to what it ail means and what should be done. So much so, indeed, that in this country a meeting of representatives of the Trades Union Congress, with all the unions represented, has decided (so far as I can gather from Press reports) that automation, instead of being something to be afraid of, ought to be faced and encouraged, on condition that the workmen's representatives are taken into consideration and that certain things are done in order to break the effect of automation upon the workers generally. A very fine debate took place, and to read the report of it is not only to inform one's mind but also to give one some faith in one's own kind and in the future of this country. There are, however, some questions that I want to ask the Government, and, particularly, whether they have given consideration to this matter or not.
  I think it is reasonable and not farfetched to assume that we are entering into a stage of increasing and even acute competition internationally. This will undoubtedly speed up the use of mechanical substitutes for human labour, with, possibly, a serious and sad impact upon certain communities. That is to say, we are entering into a period when there is likely to be (if I may use the term) a kind of grab for mechanical processes much in advance of the ones that have been used, so that fewer and fewer workmen will be used in factories. As an American observer says, to quote from the Report:
  "The fact that to-day an imaginative scientist can improvise, in principle, mechanisms capable of carrying out almost any task is of revolutionary significance: in these circumstances, it is not difficult to conceive of a threat to human society as we have come to know and understand it."
  That is a quotation from the Director-General's Report, based upon a considerable factual knowledge of this matter.
  The very great changes that are taking place in industry must be matched by new methods to keep us informed in greater detail and to ensure that plans are ready to make those changes. I want to ask the Minister what steps are being taken by the Government to have abnormal changes in industry registered by the Ministry of Labour and employers? What steps are they taking to
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  obtain this information and to register it, so that the Government will know where they are? Again, what steps are being taken to off-set such changes by re-training in new or allied tasks and generally, by new technical education and re-education, to keep pace with industrial change?
  Are the minds of the Government open to possible means to meet this situation, the scale and impact of which on the community equal what is happening in the factory and workshop? In the days between the wars, we waited patiently for the Government to make up their mind what they were going to do about unemployment in the depressed areas. I think that the people of this country were extremely patient during those years—as a matter of fact, I used to be amazed at their patience at the social neglect of great communities. I want to warn the Government, and the country, that that situation cannot be repeated without great trouble arising. The Government have contacts with the employers and with other countries and with the International Labour Organisation, which has the information about this matter. The proposals made in this Report ought to be heeded.
  There are some who suggest that all our young people in industries where skill has been abolished by the change to greater mechanical production ought to go back to school; and there are those who propose that even men and women who have spent the greater part of their lives exercising their skill at their trade or craft ought to go back to school. The Trades Union Congress has suggested, like the trade unions in America and other parts of the world, that a reduction in the weekly hours of work should be considered. That cannot be done until we see the effects of the changes that are taking place, and all I am going to say this afternoon is that the Government have been warned by this Report about what we are likely to have to face. Suggestions have been made about how to face it. I hope that the Government have given serious consideration to this matter with a view to future action. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
  3.13 p.m.
  LORD CROOK: My Lords, I should like first to congratulate my noble friend on putting this Motion on the Order

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  Paper of your Lordships' House. As one who for over thirty years has been concerned as a trade union official with international labour, I share his surprise that so seldom are there debates on this subject in either House of Parliament. I. join in the praise which he has given to the Report of the Director-General on automation, but I think that we can take some pride to ourselves from the fact that the Report commences on its first page, in trying to see what is the definition of automation and what the Governments have done about it, by referring to the Report of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, on which we had a debate in your Lordships' House on October 23, 1956. I think that that is indicative of the care which successive Governments have taken for joint authoritative action with the employers and trade unions to try to understand what are some of our major industrial problems.
  In yet another effective document the Director-General deals with the international aspect of a subject on which we dealt with the smaller national aspect. I note that my noble friend Lord Lawson said that any Member of your Lordships' House would be well advised to read the Director-General's Report. I would go on to say that in my view the Report, or at least a summary of it, is a "must" for every industrial and senior trade union official.
  As Mr. David Morse, the Director-General, points out in the Report, it is widely recognised that the key to the labour and social impact of automation and other technological innovations is the rate of speed at which they spread from one undertaking, one industry and one area to another undertaking, another industry and another area, and from one part of the world to another part of the world. If the changes over the last fifty years had been compacted into a period of five years, there would be grounds for grave concern. Whilst it is important to try to assess the rate of speed at which technological changes are occurring and are likely to occur in world economy, the Director-General frankly admits that at the moment we have no real means of knowing how fast these changes will come and how far they will go. He admits, as most of us said in the debate in your Lordships'
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  House, that up to now few have challenged the assumption that the rate of change is likely to be great.
  He goes on, however, to use these words, which I think are most important and which I should like to quote:
  "Yet in the interests of caution it might be noted that only a few years ago automation and atomic energy were both commonly regarded as practical problems for the next decade, not for this one. Things have happened far faster than most qualified observers in both fields expected."
  The need, he emphasises, is to see what is happening, to try to anticipate the trend in the social field and to plan ahead, so that we can meet without confusion the problems that obviously lie ahead of us and are going to arise.
  When we debated this in October, 1956, my noble colleague, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, who introduced the debate on automation, felt that progress would be slow. My noble friend Lord Hall and the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, and all who took part felt that we were going to move very slowly. We drew attention particularly to the fact that expensive digital computers, on which a good deal of automation depended, were both costly and difficult of production and likely to be few in number in the years immediately ahead. But from 1956 until to-day we have gained more information and there has been greater speed, and we now have a very different picture of the speed with which automation is going to come upon us as a national problem.
  The Board of Trade, with excellent foresight, if I may say so, have tried to analyse during the later months of 1957 what the trends are going to be, and we are indebted to the Board, in its journal of February, 1958, for the first really authoritative documentation of the trends of the techniques in question over the years ahead of us. Let us look at the digital computers which we thought were going to be scarce. The Report says:
  "Within the next four years nearly all the major employers of clerical staff, including the distributive trades, banks, insurance companies, hospital boards and local and central government, expect to be using digital computers. Industrialists who expected to use computers for office work in the next five years include iron and steel firms, the oil companies, the nationalised industries, aircraft constructors and various large engineering firms including electrical engineers, scientific instrument makers,

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  cable makers, pump manufacturers, cycle and motor cycle manufacturers, excavator makers and manufacturers of bearings."
  I have ventured to read out to your Lordships the complete extract for the reason that I think it is only by seeing the wide range of the industrialists who are planning ahead for the next four or five years that we see the nature of the problem that is before us. There, in the office field, where we thought progress would be slow, it is going to be much faster.
  What, therefore, about the general position in factories? The Board, in its information, tells us the plans for further automation in the next four or five years both in regard to the provision by extension of existing automatic handling equipment and in regard to the introduction of new equipment; and the lists of the firms in both categories are extensive. Those who will expand from existing automatic equipment to large-scale equipment are our hosiery and knitwear, matches, printing, food and drink industries, mass-producing engineering industries, including those producing electric switchgear and motors, electric heating components, and so on. Those who are going to introduce new equipment, which is probably even more important from the point of view of labour, are the timber, glass, bread, milk, building materials, rubber, iron and steel, and gas industries; and that is leaving out some of the huge, already automised, firms who are going to automate a good deal more, such as the great oil industries. Oil is probably the most automated industry in the world, and certainly it is the most automated industry we have in this country. Any of your Lordships who have found time to visit Fawley will have seen in the refinery there what is probably the ultimate in automatic production. Six men a shift handle equipment which distils 5½ million gallons of crude oil a day; that is, one-third of the total British needs for all oil products are being produced at Fawley by six men a shift.
  I think my noble friend Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, who moved the Motion on automation in 1956, and my noble friend Lord Hall who followed him, both of whom have their roots in the coal industry, as has my noble friend
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  who moved the Motion to-day, will be particularly interested in the footnote to the Director-General's Report, where he quotes from Mr. Magnus Pike's book, Automation—Its Purpose and Future, which more clearly than anything I can say to your Lordships shows the trend of the picture to come. Mr. Magnus Pike draws attention to the contrast between these six technicians supplying one-third of the total British needs for all oil products and 270,000 men uneasily labouring at the disagreeable, arduous and dangerous occupation of coalmining in order to supply one-third of the country's coal requirements. I think there is a sobering thought in that, as there is if you go further round Fawley and look at the catcracker, employing only eight men a shift.
  But what we have so far in this country, and what we have made known to us from information in the Board of Trade Journal, is nothing to the techniques already established in other countries of the world, which one may find for oneself in the international survey. In the United States at the moment, as I well know, there is a huge concrete plant so completely automatic that by means of one electronic panel any one of 1,500 different mixing formula; for concrete can be operated by button-pushing, the material going in at one end in its raw state and coming out at the other end ready for immediate use. As the Director-General points out in his Report, already in America fourteen glass-blowing machines, each machine operated by only one operator—that is, fourteen operators on each shift for the whole country—produce 90 per cent. of all the glass light-bulbs and all the valves in radio and television used throughout the whole of the United States. Friends of mine who were in Belgium recently saw glass production on the other side—the production of bottles and general glass material—where the solid material goes in at one end, the materials flow on to a furnace, the molten material from the furnace flows through to where the material is blown, shaped, cooled and delivered, without a man touching it at all.
  These are some of the signs that this Report indicates to us of the shape of things to come. Fifty years ago anyone who visited the great machine shops of America which were producing motor cars found that 15,000 man-hours were

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  required to produce one simple motor car. Now, for the more complex cars produced in this country, not 1,000 hours of manpower are required. Again, the Director-General gives us these figures—and the figures that he gives in a Report that he wrote over a year ago are figures that much out of date; that is to say, all the time speed is increasing, and fewer and fewer people are required to do the job. In the last two months the Volkswagen firm in Germany have opened their wonderful new works where there is a complete transfer line for stamping and welding bodies in one continuous operation. The three parts of the body come together, and it is possible under modern techniques for as many as eighty spot weldings to be done at one moment. To go hack to America again, in Ford's, the total labour force used on motor cars at the moment is 10 per cent, of the original force, and they are producing exactly double the number of motor cars; in fact, there were 800,000 workers in the United States car industry when I first talked to people in that industry years ago, and they are expecting at the moment to reach at ultimate figure of only 200,000, with vastly expanded production.
  I think that point leads us to look for a minute or two at the figures to which the Director-General has drawn attention, showing the difference between the figures of production and the figures of employment. In the United States the production figures since the war are up by 41 per cent. But if you look at the employment figures they are up by 8·3 per cent. There are, in fact, 600,000 fewer jobs with increased production. To us that has many important aspects. There are the people in production in general markets with which we in this country must compete. The future standards of this country, and the people in it, turn on our ability to face up to the challenge which automation is making to us.
  The clear discrepancy between production figures and employment figures has been made clear by the Director-General. Ai the risk of boring your Lordships, but in the belief that not all have had time to read all the documents, may I read the important disclosure of Mr. Davie Morse, at page 32 of this Report, where he talks about the apprehension that is evident alike in Commonwealth countries, in foreign countries, such as
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  Germany and in France, and in this country. He says:
  "…facts and figures are adduced to show a clear discrepancy between the expansion of production and the expansion of employment."
  He goes on:
  "Thus, it seems to be the fear of creeping unemployment, developing simultaneously with rising production and productivity and spreading from one industry branch to another, that is at the root of misgivings about the future. It is cold comfort to reiterate that the record of the past belies gloomy predictions. These apprehensions are real and widespread. The only way in which they cart be countered is by concentrating on the fact—in each country, in each industry, in each undertaking—by giving sustained attention to the changing employment situation, and by careful planning not only to promote full employment and economic growth, but also to foster the social policies which must underlie and accompany such growth."
  There, I think, we have the crux of our problem. We are back to the kind of problem that we ventured to pose in the debate of October, 1956. I ventured then to refer to some of those social policies. I should be imposing upon your Lordships if I were to repeat the things I said on that occasion, and I therefore venture only to say something in summary in passing this afternoon.
  First, I would say that no one looking at the problem of automation should fail to understand that housing must be the key of this situation. Whilst on given production there will be this large cutback in employment in given jobs, I do not myself believe that total employment in this country will fall at all. I believe that the future is bright if we handle it correctly; if we now look at the problem of the next four or five years, and that is why I have ventured to address your Lordships this afternoon. I do not believe that, in a country in which there is the ability on the part of both the employers and the workers which exists here, technological innovations need lead to any decrease in the global volume of employment. But the nature of employment will change, and the place where people will be employed will be changed geographically. As atomic energy becomes available, and as automation develops, factories of a new type will be built. No longer will the employers be tied to build these new factories in given places. They will have the chance of doing exactly what they want to do.

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  If workers are to go to work at new places; if workers, indeed, are to be expelled, as they will be, from some of the places where they work on automation, they must be given homes to go to. What is more—and I repeat what my noble friends on these Benches and I had to say in October, 1956—if they are displaced after long service with their firms, they must be compensated. The long-term worker is as much entitled to consideration and compensation as the director of the concern. What is more, he must be consulted at an early date. Directors may sit for years making up their minds whether they are going to make this or that change. They must not, when they have taken years making up their minds, expect that in a period of a few weeks the workers so vitally concerned with the decision they have made will themselves be content to have only two or three weeks.
  I want to say straight away, since I believe that industrial relations in this country between employers and trade union leaders have reached a higher stage and standard than in any other country in the world, that I know the good employers will all the time carry out the necessary consultation. But at all times, even with legislation, and certainly when we are sitting on occasions like this, we must realise that we are dealing all the time with those who are not up to the higher standards. I think the Ministry of Labour will have to continue its efforts—efforts it has always well made, and keeps on making. We shall have to follow up that film which was recently made and shown on B.B.C. television showing the different way employers react in consultation. We, and they, must all realise, as that film tried to show to the employers of this country, that "consultation" is not another word for giving information. By all means let us have information given in wall posters, magazines, lectures and talks. But it is more than information that is needed; it is consultation that is required.
  The workers who are told about automation must be told in good time. They must know its probable effects. Make no doubt about it, the effect on the worker, as compared with the director and the senior staff, is terrific. Shift work stares in the face thousands of people in
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  this country who have never faced it before. The industrial firms in this country who are going to enter into effective competition with other countries of the world will be tempted to see that the price of the machinery they instal is economically justified by using that machinery at least for sixteen hours a day, and probably for twenty-four hours. If that is so, it means shift work; and shift work means a new realignment of the lives of people—we must be alive to that fact. Even the hours at which our public libraries are open may well have to be different, to deal with the leisure and education of the people. The cinemas are already grumbling about the lack of people going into them; and they may need to look afresh at the times they open. I was delighted to see that in the progressive steel industry of Scunthorpe one or two of the great British films are being shown at performances at 9.30 in the morning.
  That is the kind of thing we shall have to face—the realignment of leisure opportunity, as well as the realignment of hours. People must know that. They must know what is going to happen to them. They must be able to discuss training schemes for the new schools. If you are going to put off people whose skill is A, and you want people with skill B, you must make up your mind whether those in skill A can be trailed to skill B. You must look at their age group and their type, and get training schemes going. You must discuss with them whether there is a redundancy risk, and, if so, how great it is and how you must plan for it. I am bound to say that in this respect, in dealing with their own servants in the Civil Service, the Government have shown the right idea and have given the right lead.
  Again, I was delighted that the Director-General of the I.L.O. could put into his Report quite deliberately, as a footnote on page 65, an extract from Hansard of the other place, a statement of the present Minister of Labour, who said:
  "In general, advance notice is given to my Department by Government establishments, sometimes months beforehand. My officers then discuss the proposed redundancy with the management, and interview and advise the redundant workers in advance of their discharge."
  I know what goes on in the Civil Service, and I refer to it quite deliberately because

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  the relationship between the staff side of the Civil Service and the official side has produced this kind of arrangement. What is more, I saw (and I commented on it in this House in October, 1956) the way in which the Minister of Labour, when he got the chance—of course he could not until he got the chance—moved in with quick ad hoc arrangements to deal with the redundancy problem in the motor car industry in the Midlands. That is the kind of thing we have the right to expect that employers, in facing up to their responsibilities, will produce in co-operation with Her Majesty's Government.
  My Lords, I am afraid that the clock has gone on, and I have been led by the reference which my noble friend made to the Report on Automation to spend perhaps too long on only one section of the document on your Lordships' Order Paper, without mentioning one or two other things in Command Paper 328. It is perhaps a little unusual for a Member of the House to refer to individuals, but if I do so it is because I follow the example of the Report which is under discussion this afternoon. Paragraphs 12 and 13, on page 6, refer to the commemoration of the twenty-fifth anniversary of the death of Albert Thomas. That gives me the opportunity of saying, first of all, how long-established this oldest organ of international affairs is; it is the only one which survived when the League of Nations perished. It also permits me to say how much I, and I know some of my colleagues on the other side of the House who were in the other place, and some on this side who were in the other place, knew and appreciated all that that great rugged figure, Albert Thomas, did. I was delighted to be in Geneva last year when the "Art and Labour" exhibition, part of this tribute to his memory, was held, and I was delighted to see that Her Majesty's Government sent paintings, sculptures and objets d'art in order to help in an international tribute.
  I was particularly glad, when it came to the unveiling of a plaque by someone representative of the I.L.O., that they chose Mr. David Morse, whose magnificent Reports have already been referred to this afternoon. I am glad that M. Paul Ramadier was there, and more particularly that Sir Guildhaume Myrddin-Evans was there; and I think it would
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  be wrong not to say how much many of us know we owe to the great and loyal servant of the State in the Ministry of Labour, Her Majesty's adviser on international affairs and head of the Governing Body of I.L.O. for all he has done. I am very glad that tribute was paid to the Workers' Vice-Chairman of the Governing Body in this country, Sir Alfred Roberts—he also was there. If, therefore, I have digressed for two or three minutes in an unusual way, it is in the belief that it was the right thing to do on an occasion when a document of this type was before us.
  I welcome in the Report the fact that by unanimous vote, apart from the abstention of the United States employers' delegate, the Forced Labour Convention finally went through the machinery of the Organisation and was adopted. Here is an undertaking to suppress and not make use of forced or compulsory labour, whether to cause political coercion, to mobilise for economic development or as a means of labour discipline. Knowing some of the difficulties which beset all sides in industry, I should like to say how glad we are that the three sides could manage finally to reach that conclusion.
  Then I welcome the inclusion in the document of the references to those who had given their services so freely, and the tributes, which are paid in generous terms, to the two representatives of the employers and the workers of this country. I think it is again indicative of the kind of atmosphere that we have built up, and are building up, in this country that, in a document which is submitted on behalf of the Government and signed by the official representative of the Government in Her Majesty's Civil Service, it is possible for them to say (and dare I, without wishing to offend any other country, say that I doubt whether this could be said in a Parliamentary document anywhere else in the world) that these persons
  "although appointed by, should be independent of, their Governments, and this independence is expressly enshrined in the Constitution of the Organisation. Sir Richard and Sir Alfred have not hesitated to exercise that independence. We have differed from them on occasions—sometimes from one, sometimes from the other, sometimes from both. But always, even when differing from us, they have shown complete understanding of our position and complete readiness to be helpful within the limits determined by their own views and

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  their loyalties to their own groups. As a result our task has been lightened and our ways made more pleasant. We thank them."
  I think it was a very good touch to introduce a human note into a formal White Paper presented to Parliament, and I am sure that everybody will be delighted.
  I come to one last item in this document to which I want to refer, and that is the paragraph on budgetary considerations. To read the document as it stands would be to believe that everything in the garden about the budget is beautiful. I am sorry to disillusion those of your Lordships who did not know, but the truth is that the continued niggardly attitude of the Government to finances has been the subject of standing disagreement and complaint for years. On behalf of my friends in the Trades Union Congress I want to draw attention to that matter. They have met Government representatives on it on several occasions, but for several years now Her Majesty's Government have combined with the representatives of other Governments to keep down costs to the monetary figure of preceding years.
  I have no objection to keeping an eye on the budgets of organisations such as this—indeed it is quite essential. My noble friend Lord Attlee sent me out to America in 1950 for some four months, and among the charges laid upon me was to look through the budget of the United Nations and do all I could to keep it down. I should be the last to suggest that a good watch on the budgetary position of an organisation such as this is not a good thing. But budgeting considerations must never cramp the essential work of the Organisation. This one essential organ, which, as I have already said, managed to live through even when the League of Nations failed, has been the one which has been cramped. It is useless making general protestations about how valuable an organisation it is and what a high regard there is for it unless words are translated into deeds.
  To keep the budget down artificially at a time of rising costs—chiefly salaries and travelling and the like—is wrong. It is even worse when there are increased demands due to the economic and social needs of the world, and when the underdeveloped countries of the world are coming in for attention and needing it
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  more and more. I say to your Lordships, quite seriously, that the restriction of finance has cramped the work of the Organisation. Programmes extending over a number of years, which had already been agreed in principle, have been either restricted or abandoned. Budgetary pressure in general by the Governments has been supplemented by action aimed at restriction of activities, which is causing the workers' side considerable concern.
  In recent years it has been suggested that the scope of representation on Committees should be reduced. That attitude was repeated again at the Session of I.L.O. which was held in Geneva throughout last week. My Trades Union Congress friends, fresh back from Geneva, tell me that a further restriction was attempted by proposing a change in the Standing Orders which would restrict the effective competence of the Committees. Moreover, there was a determined attempt to cut down the number of industrial Committees to which the world group of workers attaches considerable importance. Indeed, the action of the Government, with other Governments, led last week-end to what, without desiring to be a sensationalist, I would venture to say amounts to a crisis. What happened was this. The usual number of meetings of the Industrial Committee is five in a year. The proposal was to reduce the proposals of the Director-General to a provision for only two meetings during 1959.
  Government pressure over the years has irritated the workers' group, and this year it was too much for it and, for the first time, they took action. For years they have supported the budget, to get it through in order to make certain that the I.L.O. did not die on its legs. But this year they felt that, whatever the risk, they had to come into open conflict, and they refused to vote for the budget. At the end of last week the governing body, faced with this clear indication of the strength of feeling of the workers' group, solved the deadlock by a compromise (which, in fact, satisfies no one completely) by giving one more meeting for 1959, so that instead of the five there will be three. Once again the work has been completely slowed down.
  My Lords, I repeat that with the good picture that I have sought to paint, the tribute that I myself have tried to pay

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  to the Government, and the tributes that they themselves have paid to those who go to these tripartite discussions, there is this underlying feeling which is no good to relations either in this country or in the other countries of the world. We on these Benches believe that in the current world situation the I.L.O. has a greater importance, and not a lesser one. We are all conscious of the very real dangers of the estrangement of African and Asian countries from the West, as to which, after occupying your Lordships' time for far too long, I need only refer to the Afro-Asian Conference in Cairo and the like. But we on these Benches certainly believe that this country of ours has much to offer to the workers of the world in the field of the experience that we can make available to them. We regret the artificial limits which have been placed on the activities of the I.L.O. by the attitude which Her Majesty's Government have taken up and which I hope they will reconsider before next year.
  Before I sit down, I am bound to say that I cannot escape the feeling that in this matter of expenditure on international organs Her Majesty's Government have got their priorities all wrong, for U.N.E.S.C.O. has been given a greater budgetary increase over the last decade than that provided for the International Labour Oganisation. I am second to none in my desire to see culture and the arts brought to the working people of the world; but if my total expenditure is to be limited I would rather provide for the living worker of to-day than produce for the worker of to-morrow a statue of a dead worker of the past.
  3.55 p.m.
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this Motion, but after the two extremely interesting and eloquent speeches from the other side I feel that somebody from these Back Benches ought to say something on this Motion. I agree with nearly everything the noble Lord, Lord Crook said, except perhaps his cri de cœur of the last minute—I think his words were that "budgetary considerations are cramping the essential work of the Organisation." That might be said by the secretary of every organisation in this world, every day of our lives. But if, in fact, he is correct in saying that U.N.E.S.C.O. is getting a larger budget, and that the
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  is getting a smaller one, I would support him in the view that that is not a very desirable situation.
  On looking through the White Paper, I am glad to see that our delegation voted firmly against the proposal to allow Bolivia to vote in spite of her being in arrears with her subscription. I believe that in these international bodies it makes for a far greater degree of responsibility if we can get that principle more widespreadly held: no subscription, no vote. When one examines the composition of the body and looks at some of the conventions to which it subscribes, certain curious anomalies arise. I see that the Soviet Union is apparently a member of this body. The text of Convention No. 105, which our Government have adopted (it would be interesting to know whether the Soviet has adopted it) reads like this:
  "In Article I each member of the International Labour Organisation that ratifies this Convention undertakes to suppress and not to make any use of any form of force or compulsory labour as a means of political coercion…or as a means of using labour for purposes of economic development, as a means of labour discipline, as a punishment for having participated in strikes and a means of racial…discrimination."
  From every information I have ever read the Soviet Union is guilty under every one of those indictments, and I should be most interested to know from my noble friend the Minister whether in fact the Soviet Union has signed Convention No. 105. If so, it is one of the greatest pieces of hypocrisy that I have ever heard in this world.
  The noble Lord, Lord Crook, rightly pointed out that we are passing through an industrial revolution and that its manifestations are shown in such matters as atomic power and automation. Automation in itself need not necessarily involve a great loss of jobs; but the question of timing arises, because to prepare for automation many people have to work on the machinery, and then, once it is installed, the employment is considerably less than it was. Since man's natural inclination is to be alternately optimistic and pessimistic—hence we get the natural trade cycle—this question of automation can tend to reinforce the intensity of the trade cycle; because when a man is optimistic he wants to buy machinery and so on for the future, and that creates a boom in capital goods. When the boom in capital

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  goods is finished, the employment in making those capital goods is also finished; automation is installed and the employment is then less than it would have been had there been no automation. The result is that the effect of automation, unless otherwise corrected, is a tendency to accentuate the natural trade cycle. We can do a great deal of the necessary correction by means of our monetary policy, but as this is not an economic debate I will not go into that aspect now. But I am hoping to hear most interesting things from the Radcliffe Committee on the subject of limiting the total volume of credit and so on, which will tend to even out these matters and discourage mass optimism and mass pessimism which is in fact the trade cycle.
  Undoubtedly where we get the transfer of jobs, as there will be, we shall get areas which will have more than their fair share of jobs taken away: they will become what we call "depressed areas." In modern time it seems easier in many cases to carry work to the workers, rather than the workers to work, and I feel sure that so far as the lighter types of industry are concerned we are on the right lines in trying to do that; and there are many arrangements, with Government and local authority aid, to do that kind of thing. But I am not quite so sure how far we have got the manual worker as accustomed to travel to his work as the "white collar" worker is. The "white collar" worker thinks nothing of an hour's train journey to his work, and I believe that we shall at some time have to think about similar journeys for the manual worker.
  But as the manual worker's journey will not be from the suburban "dormitory" into the great city, like that of the "white collar" worker, we may have to think about special trains running on rather peculiar cross-country routes. The lines and engines are there, and it is just a question of making the necessary arrangements. Somehow, however, we have to get people more mobile; and we have to get industry mobile also. That means housing. I agree with the noble Lord that there is need for a greater volume of housing in this country—I would suggest houses built without subsidy of any kind and made available to rent by local authorities. If it is a fact that we have rather over-
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  estimated our needs in capital expenditure on the power industries, I hone that we shall be able to make up by spending more in the fields of transport and housing.
  Reading a document of this kind, one inevitably thinks of overseas competition, because that is one of the chief purposes of our belonging to an Organisation of this kind. We in this country who have a high standard of living want to support any organisation which can try to increase the standard of living of our competitors. That is the crude principal reason why we like to belong to such organisations. Though Japan has not so far been in our markets the problem that I, for one, expected her to be, there are other countries which have sprung up—in particular Hong Kong—which are formidable competitors; formidable because they have an enormous population all clamouring for factory jobs. Although I understand that conditions in the best factories, the "showpieces", are very good, I have been told that if one goes into the back streets the same conditions do not apply. If we are to encourage fair conditions of labour and so on throughout the world, I believe that we might start in our own "backyard". I am not prepared to "swallow" free trade with countries having an Oriental standard of life and Occidental machinery, and anything we can do to improve the standard of life in these Oriental countries is naturally one which will redound to the standard of life of our own workers. For that reason, at any rate, the International Labour Organisation has my support.
  4.06 p.m.
  THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, the International Labour Organisation, whose affairs we debate this afternoon, is one of the very few international organisations to survive the pandemonium of the Second World War. I believe this is the measure of its worth and of the support it has always been able to command from Governments of widely differing political complexions and from working people and employers throughout the world. In the thirty-nine years of its existence, the I.L.O. has steadily extended its influence. It has left its stamp on the social policies and

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  social legislation of countries at every stage of political development. In this way the I.L.O, has laid the foundations for the establishment of better working conditions and industrial relations and a proper appreciation of trade union rights. This has led to an ever widening area of co-operation between labour and management throughout the world. Despite the political tensions caused by the reentry of the Communist countries into the I.L.O., the Organisation has continued its progress. As the Report which we are debating this afternoon makes clear, much useful and constructive work continues to be done.
  The steady expansion of the membership of the I.L.O. from fifty-three to seventy-eight in ten years, with Malaya and Ghana as the last two entrants, and the increasing number of conventions ratified by member States, provides further evidence, I believe, of the growing authority of the I.L.O. and its steady advance in the field of social progress throughout the world. The importance of the I.L.O. and its work has been recognised in this country from the outset. British Government representatives played a leading part in the discussions which led up to the establishment of the organisation. The United Kingdom has remained continuously in membership of the Organisation and successive Governments, without exception, have given their full support to the Organisation and its work.
  This afternoon we were treated to a very remarkable speech by the noble Lord. Lord Crook, which I hope will be widely read. I agreed with pretty well everything he said except his final condemnation of Her Majesty's Government for insufficiently generous support. The noble Lord talked about the money U.N.E.S.C.O. was receiving, but I would remind Jinn that settlement of priorities between various international organisations, and the subscriptions they receive from us, is not entirely a matter for Her Majesty's Government. I would ask your Lordships to believe that the Government's attitude towards the financing of the I.L.O. has not been niggardly. It is quite right and reasonable, as my noble friend Lord Hawke has pointed out, that we should examine critically the budgets or these international organisations. Between 1949 and 1958 the budget of the
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  I.L.O. has increased from just over 5 million dollars to just under 8 million dollars, and I think that increase speaks for itself.
  With regard to the reference of the noble Lord, Lord Crook, to what happened at the governing body of the I.L.O. last week, a budget of 8½ million dollars was voted, an increase of 6 per cent. over 1958. I do not think this really represents a slowing down of activities. At any rate, we have done our best. We have paid up "on the nail". Our percentage is approximately 10 per cent.; and the only reason why it has gone down a point or two this year (if that is what is worrying the noble Lord, Lord Crook), is that more people are contributing. We are not niggardly towards the Organisation and we fully realise its value and why we should support it.
  As one of the ten member States of major industrial importance, the United Kingdom Government hold a permanent seat on the governing body. Both there and at sessions of the International Labour Conference their representatives play a prominent part in the affairs of the Organisation. It is a well established tradition that our own Minister of Labour and National Service attends the Conference each year and contributes to its debates. The speech delivered last year by my right honourable friend the Minister attracted considerable attention both here and abroad. Representatives of British employers and workers have also maintained an active and constructive interest in the I.L.O. Delegates and advisers, nominated in agreement with the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress respectively, have always played a prominent part in all sessions of the general Conference.
  I think it is a pity that the I.L.O. and its work receive comparatively scant recognition in this country, and therefore I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, for once again giving us the opportunity of considering its activities. I commend to your Lordships in particular, as all other speakers have done, the Report of the Director-General of the I.L.O.—a highly readable document and a lesson to some of us in the art of printing a document so that it may be read without discomfort and eyestrain. I especially commend those parts which deal with what has been in the

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  forefront of our debate this afternoon—namely, the implications of what (for want of a prettier word) we call automation. It is in my opinion an excellent analysis of the problems involved, in themselves probably as important as any with which the I.L.O. has had to deal.
  The Director-General selects four guiding principles for special emphasis. First, he says we should welcome technological change. To do so implies a sense of confidence and security in the future. It involves overcoming the fear of change which, he says, seems to be widespread. Secondly, we must prepare for technological change. This is not difficult, if the need for doing so is fully appreciated. It is for management to take the initiative and, with confidence, to open the door for consultation with the workers. It is for the workers and their representatives to examine in a reasonable spirit the changes proposed, and to provide safeguards which promote rather than restrict technological progress. It is for the Government to pull together the many strands of change and to make up and analyse the whole pattern; and on this basis to form a clear idea of the problems which may arise. It is for the three parties to work together, to plan ahead so that changes are made in each undertaking, industry and area, with proper regard to the human factors involved.
  Thirdly, he says we must distinguish between long-term problems of adjustment to technological development and short-term problems of a transitional nature. The former, of course, have been with us since some "bright boy" invented the wheel. Over the years our industrial society has learned how to deal with these problems. In contrast, we may need to take special measures to cope with the immediate repercussions of technological changes, either generally (should change come very rapidly) or in particular industries or localities or groups of workers. The object of such measures is simply to prevent special hardship and to ensure that the burden of change falls fairly, and not on those least equipped to carry it. Fourthly, we must reinforce our efforts to promote cooperation between labour and management in planning, introducing, and carrying through technological changes.
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  Those are the views of the Director-General, Mr. David Morse. They are endorsed by Her Majesty's Government. Her Majesty's Government are in point of fact already tackling this problem in much the same way as the Director-General had suggested. As early as 1954 Her Majesty's Government had foreseen the need for an objective survey of all the available experience (I refuse to call it "know-how"), and had arranged for the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research to prepare a Report. This Report has been discussed and endorsed by both sides of industry represented on the National Joint Advisory Council. Thus by a rational and dispassionate examination of the facts, the automation scare (one may almost call it "panic") which so exercised some folk a year or two ago has now been put into its proper perspective.
  Your Lordships will recall that the steps which the Government were then taking to tackle the problems arising from automation were given to the House some eighteen months ago. Your Lordships were told that the Government were encouraging technical and technological education and training to meet the growing demands which automation will create. The Government described the powers which they already had to help such workers as might be made redundant (that means, thrown out of work) by the introduction of automation, to find other work; and the encouragement, which the Government were giving to employers (one or two of whom, I may add, needed a little prodding) to discuss these problems with the trade unions. I need not now repeat what we then discussed in some detail; but your Lordships will wish to know that we have continued vigorously in this field.
  The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has rightly emphasised the importance of keeping in touch with new developments in automation as they occur I entirely agree. We did not regard the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research Report as the last word. In the autumn of 1956 a further inquiry was initiated by the Board of Trade into the extent to which automation is likely to be introduced into industry in the next few years and the effect it may have on the demand for labour and capital investment. Admittedly, nothing very startling

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  emerged from this Report, but I think its chief value lies in the fact that we have here up-to-date information from industry itself on the problems which industry expects to encounter. For instance, although it was found to be difficult to assess accurately the effect of new automatic techniques on the size of our labour force, it seemed obvious that the trend would be towards a decrease in the number of unskilled men and an increase in the number of skilled technicians of all sorts. Some firms expected to reduce the size of their labour force, some to increase it in order to keep pace with increasing production, and others to maintain their existing labour force while increasing their output. If workers became redundant on a particular process, it would be possible either to redeploy them within the factory, or not to replace wastage, or, quite as likely, to retain them because of the generally increased level of activity resulting from greater production brought about by the increased use of automation.
  The Government have not pigeonholed this Report. We believe that the more people know about automation and its effects, the more likelihood there is of our being able to obtain full benefit from technological improvements with the least possible hardship. A summary of the Board of Trade Report has already been published in the Board of Trade Journal. It has been discussed by the Engineering Advisory Council and circulated to the National Joint Advisory Council. The more publicity we get for this kind of objective examination of the facts, the better. We do not intend to stop there. Further research is being carried out under the auspices of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. My right honourable friend the Minister of Labour and National Service is, of course, keeping a close watch on the employment aspects of new technical developments. He receives regular reports through the nation-wide network of the Ministry of Labour's offices on all developments likely to affect employment, including the application of automation in industry and commerce.
  Your Lordships have expressed concern, naturally, about the joint effect of recent increases in unemployment and automation on our labour force. I do not think: that we ought to exaggerate
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  the difficulties. Her Majesty's Government have already expressed it as their considered view that despite local difficulties in such places as North Wales, Ulster and some parts of Scotland, which, as your Lordships know, are receiving special attention, the general level of employment in this country will remain high. We maintain the view that so long as there is a high level of employment in this country, we need not fear that technological changes will in general create serious problems of employment. It may be necessary for some workers to change their jobs and for others to learn new skills; that is necessary—indeed, inevitable—in an expanding economy. Changes in the constitution of the labour force are going on all the time.
  The noble Lord, Lord Crook, referred to the motor industry. Your Lordships may be interested to know that in the motor industry—the very industry in which the automation scare was raised in 1956, and where we know millions of pounds have been invested in recent years in new machinery—employment has actually increased since the summer of 1956 and at the same time the output of the industry has expanded enormously. This is, I suggest, a vivid lesson for those who believe, like their ancestors, the Luddites, who maybe threw the first spanner into the first works, that the expansion of the automative process is a danger to the wellbeing of the country. On the contrary, I must emphasise once more that these new developments are welcome.
  Our whole industrial history has been a struggle to produce goods more efficiently. The faster our productivity rises, the faster our standard of living will rise and the easier it will be to carry on a flourishing export trade. We cannot afford to fall behind our competitors. We must take advantage of every aid science can bring to industry, so that our stuff is as good and as cheap as that of our rivals. The policy of the Government is to maintain full employment. To do this, as the noble Lord, Lord Crook, also pointed out, we must have an expanding economy and one which is vigorously and aggressively competitive.
  As we all know, we must earn enough abroad to pay for the imported food and

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  raw materials we need in increasing quantities. We therefore encourage all new developments that will help to "wipe our rival's eye" in the market-place of the world. Only in that way can we ward off the real dangers which threaten us. While delicate adjustments will obviously be called for as a result of the introduction of automation, its development is vital to our future prosperity. Our fear should be not that automation will hurt us, but that we may fail to introduce it fast enough to keep pace with our rivals.
  I now wish to turn to what the Director-General refers to, in Chapter XIV of his Report, as the "Implications for Management and Labour". It is now widely recognised, and implicit in our debate this afternoon, that the introduction of automation into a factory cannot be regarded as a purely technological changeover from the old equipment, methods and organisation to the new. Inevitably there are human implications to be considered and given possibly as much attention as the technical and financial ones, if not more. The problems will, of course, differ from case to case. The Director-General says that these technological changes:
  "open up new areas for labour-management consultation, and they reinforce the need for labour-management co-operation."
  He also states that
  "the maintenance of good relations is essential to the making of the transition and as a foundation for the future."
  Noble Lords have expressed similar views during this debate and during most discussions on the social implications of automation. I do not think that there are many who would challenge them.
  In recent years there has been a growing recognition, from the point of view of industrial efficiency, of the importance of good relationships between management and workers, and of arrangements for joint consultation as a means of fostering such relationships. Too often, however, this concept receives little more than lip service. Unless a well-established basis of mutual confidence exists between management and workers, even small changes in working conditions are unlikely to be accepted without a row. When, however, major changes such as we have had in mind this afternoon are
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  contemplated, closer co-operation between management and labour is imperative.
  How is this co-operation to be secured? There is no simple answer. That mutual confidence which is essential, is much easier to discuss than to achieve—I myself spent five years as chairman of a joint advisory council and I am well aware of that fact. It has to be built up by sustained efforts over a long period: it cannot be generated quickly when new processes are about to be introduced. Too often, joint consultation is confined to arguments about the pattern of the new canteen curtains or whether the works outing should be to Blackpool or Morecambe. Where, however, consultation with employees is part of the accepted organisation of a firm, and where in consequence labour and management relationships are good, change in major processes and in working conditions can be introduced without friction.
  I believe, therefore, that the development of effective arrangements for joint consultation in a firm as a matter of course will go a long way towards ensuring that the necessary co-operation will be forthcoming when major changes are envisaged. The "boss" who consults his workers does not derogate from his leadership, nor is the workman who responds a Quisling. The workers must know in good time what changes are in prospect, how they are to be introduced and what effects they are likely to have. Many employers, of course, already take special care to give such information to their employees.
  The lesson that Field Marshal Montgomery taught the Eighth Army has not been wasted. Experience has shown the value of imparting information and of full consultation in allaying the fears—sometimes the justifiable fears—of those who see their jobs and their skills imperilled by new jobs and new skills which they may not themselves be able to undertake. I know that many employers also readily admit that this consultation is not a one-sided exercise. They recognise that they may well be helped by the views of the men and women whom they consult. The workers, in turn, when they are consulted, are encouraged to feel proud of the advances made, or about to be made, in the firm in which they are employed.

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  Although, as I have told your Lordships' House, we expect that automation will lead to expanded opportunities for employment, I am afraid that there must be exceptions in individual firms, leading to redundancies and transitional periods of unemployment. Here again, many firms have clear policies of what action would be taken in such contingencies, and the workers know exactly where they stand and how they would be treated. More and more employers are realising the value and importance of forethought and imaginative planning in relation to such human problems, and the need to define their policy clearly and well in advance.
  With the object of making these principles more widely known, my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour and National Service has recently issued to many employers a booklet, entitled Positive Employment Policies. This gives examples of practices which a number of firms have found to be effective and acceptable. Although this booklet has not been prepared in the particular context of automation, it does illustrate the various points which the Director-General makes in his Report. It also (and I hope your Lordships will take note of this) illustrates the concern which the Government have in this subject. Some of the examples quoted in this booklet give statements of policy which reflect the attitude of the employer towards his employees and ensure that they know and understand their terms of employment. Others describe policies and practices in training staff, in consultation, in dealing with redundancies and in giving financial information to employees.
  LORD LAWSON: Before the noble Lord leaves that matter, I should like to thank him for the full explanation he has given. I was listening closely to hear whether any firm arrangement has been made for regular meetings on a national scale between the Government, the T.U.C. and the representatives of the employers. The noble Lord has given us the general statement about the necessity for meeting on both sides in the country, but is there any arrangement as to the Government and the T.U.C.?
  LORD MANCROFT: So much runs through the strain of all negotiations between the Government and the T.U.C.
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  that it is bound to crop up on all occasions. But whether any specific plans have been made for a conference on this subject alone, I do not know; and I must ask the noble Lord to give me notice of that question.
  As I was about to say, we have touched this afternoon on only two or three of the items which appeared on the agenda of last year's International Labour Conference. There are many others not of such direct interest to this country. The Conference, for instance, discussed the abolition of concentration camps, debt bondage and serfdom, and the abolition of forced labour—though I can assure my noble friend Lord Hawke that the Russian Government have not ratified Convention No. 105. The Conference also discussed such matters as safety in mines, housing construction, the education of workers and anti-trade union legislation. Here we were able to offer some guidance from our own wide experience. To us, the first Industrial Revolution is a thing of the past. To some of the newcomers to the I.L.O. Conference its counterpart, as my noble friend Lord Hawke suggested, is a very present trouble.
  Again, I think we were able to offer some help. Our own special interest, as this debate has shown this afternoon, is the second Industrial Revolution. And that Revolution is the recognition of human values in industry. We ourselves are moving forward from a position where we concerned ourselves with the establishment of reasonable standards of working conditions to one where we are more concerned with, the development of the satisfaction of human beings in their work. The familiar question. "Are you happy in your work?", should be much more than a mere catchphrase.
  Of course, we regard automation, with its new ideas and new methods as a potential danger, but it is a danger we intend to overcome. And we have not done too badly so far. We no longer regard automation—properly understood and properly undertaken—as a threat to men's livelihoods. We regard automation as something even more important—a threat to poverty; this threat Her Majesty's Government will do everything in their power to increase, for to our way of thinking, poverty anywhere constitutes a threat to prosperity everywhere.
  LORD LAWSON: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
  Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

  THE PRIME MINISTER'S COMMONWEALTH TOUR
  THE PRIME MINISTER'S COMMONWEALTH TOUR