Sitting of 16 July 1958

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  GLOUCESTER CORPORATION BILL
  Lords Amendments considered and agreed to.
  MANCHESTER CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
    WALTHAM HOLY CROSS URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [Lords] (By Order)
    Third Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE STALYBRIDGE AND DUKINFIELD (DISTRICT) WATERWORKS BILL [Lords]
    COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
    As amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ROYAL NAVY

    Pensions
    Mr. Edward Evansasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware of the disquiet caused by the anomalies in the new pension rates as between non-commissioned officers who retired in 1954, or before, and those who retire now under the new pension awards in the Royal Marines, that a colour-sergeant, who left the Service after 21 years' service, gets a pension of £2 4s. per week, while a marine of similar rank, retiring today, after 17 years' service, is entitled to £2 17s. per week, that the liability for recall is continued up to the age of 55 years in the Royal Marines and in the Royal Navy and not in other branches of Her Majesty's Forces; and if he will bring the new pension rates of those who retired before the new rates came into operation up to the new standard.
    The Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Robert Allan): In general, public service pensions once awarded do not change, although certain increases are awarded on old pensions under the various pensions increase schemes which have been subsequently introduced.
    As regards the second part of the Question, a man retiring with a pension after 17 years' service in fact would only do so either by invaliding or if he were retired under the premature retirement scheme. One of the benefits of this scheme is a pension credit of up to five years.
    Royal Navy and Royal Marine pensioners may be called up in an emergency without regard to age; men who have attained the age of 55 would not, however, be recalled. I understand that the Army and the Royal Air Force pensioners have a recall liability until the age of 60.
    The action on the last part of the Question is not for me to take.
    Mr. Evans: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the sense of grievance and injustice felt by a great many of these men who retired some years ago when comparing their rates with the newer rates? If one of them were recalled, as he is liable to be, and were subsequently retired, would he retire on the new rate of pension or on the old rate?
    Mr. Allan: As regards the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, of course this applies to all public service pensions. It includes nurses, policemen, firemen, civil servants, and so on. As regards the second part of the, question, I would not like to answer it without notice, but I think that the man would retire on his present pension.
    Dame Irene Ward: Has my hon. Friend or his right hon. Friend made representation to the Treasury on the need for doing something further for those who have served in the Forces of the Crown, as well as for others? Can he say when we may expect that something better will be provided for them than has been provided in the past, which I think is scandalous?
    Mr. Allan: The Treasury is aware of the situation, but I would remind my hon. Friend that this Government have done a great deal in this respect.
    Dame Irene Ward: Not enough.

    Fleet Air Arm (Twenty-first Anniversary)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what arrangements are being made to celebrate the 21st anniversary of the Fleet Air Arm.
    Mr. R. Allan: Twenty-one years ago the Government decided that the Admiralty should administer the Fleet Air Arm. The history of naval flying in the Royal Naval Air Service, of course, goes back much further than this. It is intended to hold a reunion in the Albert Hall on 1st December for all those who, in the past, have helped maintain, or flown, the Navy's seaborne aircraft, whether they wore light or dark uniforms.
    Mr. Lipton: May I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for a reply which indicates that the inter-Departmental squabble between the Admiralty and the Air Force in arranging this matter has now been successfully surmounted?

    H.M.S. "Albion" (Schoolboys' Visit)
    Mr. Storeyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what facilities have been offered for schoolboys to spend a week at sea in H.M.S. "Albion" during August.
    Mr. R. Allan: Arrangements have been made, under the sponsorship of a national newspaper, for a party of eight boys to visit certain ships and establishments of the Royal Navy early in August. The boys will spend a few nights at sea in H.M.S. "Albion" during a normal passage. The visit is a prize to the winners of a competition prepared by the Navy League and run by the newspaper concerned. The newspaper, of course, is paying all expenses and fully indemnifying the Admiralty.
    Mr. Storey: While the House will agree that it is desirable for as many boys as possible to see the work of the Navy, does the hon. Gentleman think that it is the duty of the Navy to provide prizes for what is, after all, only a circulation stunt?
    Mr. Allan: It is not the duty of the Navy to provide prizes, but it is its duty to take every opportunity to encourage recruitment.

    Admiralty Establishments, Plymouth (Employment)
    Miss Vickersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many men and women, established and non-established, are at present employed in Her Majesty's Dockyard, Devonport, and other naval establishments in Plymouth; and how these numbers compare with the number employed in July, 1957.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith): 22,215 on 1st July, 1958, compared with 22,486 on 1st July, 1957.
    Miss Vickers: I should like to thank my hon. Friend for that Answer. I hope that he will keep the situation continually in mind in view of the fact that we have a figure of 4 per cent. unemployed in Plymouth.

    Devonport Dockyard (Modernisations and Refits)
    Miss Vickersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what ships are being refitted in Her Majesty's Dockyard, Devonport; and to what extent modernisation of sleeping quarters, messrooms and galleys is being undertaken at the same time.
    Mr. R. Allan: One aircraft carrier, one cruiser, five destroyers, six frigates and twenty-three other vessels of various types are being modernised or refitted in Devonport Dockyard at the present time.
    As a matter of policy, the Admiralty attaches great importance to improving the standard of habitability. The extent to which this policy can be implemented in ships refitting depends on the length of the refit. When ships are in hand for modernisation or extended refit—as, for instance, "Centaur", "Belfast" and "Rame Head", in hand at Devonport—they receive sleeping bunks, modern galley equipment and improvements to bathrooms and mess spaces are made. During shorter refits as much is done as time permits.
    Miss Vickers: I should like to thank my hon. Friend for that Answer. I have had the opportunity of visiting some of these ships. I should like to know whether my hon. Friend's Answer includes air conditioning in the modernisation.
    Mr. Allan: The question of air conditioning is very important. Where ships are definitely committed to serve in hot climates, they are fully air conditioned. May I give as an example the "Loch" class frigates which are at present in the Persian Gulf? In other ships partial air conditioning is fitted as the opportunity offers. Regarding new construction, G.P. frigates, now building, and later ships will be fully air conditioned.

    Dilutee Shipwrights, Devonport Dockyard
    Miss Vickersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he will make a statement in regard to the policy of the Admiralty concerning dilutee shipwrights, established and non-established who are at present serving their apprenticeship in Her Majesty's Dockyard, Devonport.
    Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith: Dilutee shipwrights, whether established or not, are eligible for regrading as full craftsmen after seven years' service as dilutees. Provided they are still serving as dilutees and are considered suitable for regrading by the management and by the trade union concerned, 79 dilutees in Devonport Dockyard will be regraded as craftsmen in 1959 and 32 in 1960.
    Miss Vickers: I believe that there are about 110 dilutee shipwrights at present who are nearing the completion of their seven years apprenticeship. Will they be given shipwright appointments, or will they have to revert to being drillers, caulkers and riveters? Will the non-established men work outside the yard or be re-employed in the yard?
    Mr. Galbraith: My hon. Friend has already written me a letter on these points, to which I hope to be able to reply in the next few days.

    Signalmen (Title)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty why signalmen in the Royal Navy are now officially described as tactical communication operators.
    Mr. R. Allan: The title of signalman no longer adequately describes the present day functions of the rating concerned. The new title reflects his main duties, which are in that field of communications connected with the tactical handling of a fleet.
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    The demand for this change originated amongst the officers and men of the communications branch.
    Mr. Lipton: Is this really the time to introduce new-fangled long-winded titles like the one I mention in my Question, plus radio communication operators, chief radio communication supervisors, and so on, which are to be found in the incredible Admiralty Fleet Order 1690 issued on 11th July? Although the hon. Gentleman said that the officers are in favour of it, is he aware that the lower deck has already found a one syllable word to describe this ponderous polysyllabic language? Why not cut out all this nonsense and all the difficulties that will be involved in new documentation, amended publications, and so on?
    Mr. Allan: I did say in my Answer that both officers and men in the communications branch wanted this change. I very much doubt whether the title given by the lower deck is any more original than some of the titles here. But the point simply is that in the communications branch there is a great deal of common training; and nowadays masts are cluttered up with aerials, and so on. The old duties of the signalmen, the flag hoists, are not being performed by him, and ships nowadays are stationed further apart so that semaphore is not much used. All this means that signallers today are much more concerned with R.T. than other forms of communication.
    Mr. Iremonger: Is my hon. Friend aware that this will appear to many of us as part of a continuing and deep-laid plot to "drearyise" the Royal Navy? Could he possibly explain what, if any, positive advantage will accrue from this new nomenclature?
    Mr. Allan: I think that the Navy is as gay as it has ever been, if not more so. However, my hon. Friend probably remembers the title of a petty officer, namely, P.O.O.W., Petty Officer of the Watch, a rather cumbersome title. In civilian communication centres his opposite number is called a supervisor. My hon. Friend will remember that the P.O.O.W. is a supervisor and not an operator, and therefore the new term more accurately describes his function. Also, another point which is particularly stressed by the ratings concerned is that if one applies for a civilian job and

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    gives the new name for his previous occupation his qualifications can be immediately understood.

  SHIPBUILDING

    Advisory Committee
    Mr. Willeyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty on how many occasions the Shipbuilding Advisory Committee has met this year, and what matters it has under consideration.
    Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith: Twice, Sir. As stated by my predecessor on 9th May, 1956, this Committee keeps under constant review statistics about production and manpower in United Kingdom shipyards. It also considers particular questions as they arise, such as steel supplies, foreign competition and the volume of overseas orders.
    Mr. Willey: In view of the present state of shipbuilding, would the hon. Gentleman encourage the Committee, which gives very valuable advice, to meet more frequently, and also to bring within its consideration the present long-term prospects of the shipbuilding industry and the changing needs of the industry in the light of international competition?
    Mr. Galbraith: I think that the Committee probably meets at sufficiently frequent intervals, which is about once every three months.
    Mr. Hale: How is it possible to keep a thing under constant review if a Committee meets once every three months? On this assumption, the Committee could meet once every five years. If one keeps a thing under constant review without ever arriving at a decision, what is the use of having the Committee at all?
    Mr. Galbraith: The object of the Committee is to advise the Government, which it does, on various matters which are brought to its notice from time to time.
    Mr. Willey: Would the hon. Gentleman consider publishing the views of the Committee, which would be invaluable to the industry?
    Mr. Galbraith: I am afraid that that would not be possible. The matters that
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    the Committee considers are mainly confidential, as are its reports to the Government. For that reason, I am afraid that they could not be published.

    North-East Coast (Orders)
    Mr. Willeyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what is the tonnage of orders placed so far this year with north-east coast shipyards and the tonnage of orders with such shipyards which have been cancelled during the same period.
    Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith: Ten orders for new merchant ships have been placed, totalling approximately 92,000 gross tons, during the first half of 1958. During the same period, twelve orders for north-east coast shipyords of a total gross tonnage of 132,800 have been reported cancelled to the Admiralty.
    Mr. Willey: The Civil Lord will agree that this is somewhat disturbing. Can he tell us, however, whether the position is getting worse or whether there are any signs of improvement.
    Mr. Galbraith: It is really too early to say whether there are any signs of improvement or whether it is getting worse.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Could he say whether the cancellations have been in one category of ship—for examples, tankers?
    Mr. Galbraith: I could not answer that point without notice.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Service Voters (Wives)
    Mr. Skeffingtonasked the Secretary of State for War what proportion of the wives of officers and soldiers living with their husbands abroad are registered as Service voters.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Christopher Soames): About forty per cent.
    Mr. Skeffington: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that this proportion of 60 per cent. of wives not registered is really rather shocking? Is he not aware, as I am sure he must be, that in some of the bases the arrangements for registration are extremely perfunctory, and will he not look into the whole matter

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    because it seems unfair that wives living abroad with their Service husbands should lose their electoral rights?
    Mr. Soames: If the hon. Gentleman has anything to tell me or any evidence he can show me as to the arrangements being perfunctory, I will certainly look into it. My information is that, whenever a Service wife is to go abroad, she is sent a declaration form for her to become a proxy voter should she desire to fill it up.
    Mr. Skeffington: There is a number of cases where that is not so.

    Regiments (Amalgamation)
    Mr. Websterasked the Secretary of State for War if he will make a further statement regarding the proposed amalgamation of the Somerset Light Infantry and the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry.
    Mr. Soames: I would refer to the answer given on 14th May to my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann). As the amalgamation is not due to take place until the autumn of next year, it will be some time before the details are decided.
    Mr. Webster: I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply, but can he give any indication of the name of the regiment and the location of its headquarters?
    Mr. Soames: No, Sir, not yet.

    Territorial Army (Training Allowance)
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the rôle to be played by the Territorial Army in modern defence, he will reconsider his decision to cut the training allowance.
    Mr. Soames: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer given on 9th July to the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey).
    Dame Irene Ward: Whether that answer was good or bad, is my right hon. Friend aware how resentful the country is, at a time when the Territorial Army was receiving, as was its due, all praise for its contribution to the national effort over fifty years, that somebody took leave of his senses and announced at that
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    moment the reduction of the training grant? Will my right hon. Friend discuss with the Cabinet whether in future we might have a "Minister of Psychology" so that we shall not again have such appalling timing in something affecting those who have served the nation so well? It was a most idiotic decision, and I resent it very deeply.
    Mr. Soames: I understand that my hon. Friend is not pleased with the decision, but I think she has rather overstated what is involved. The amount of training decided upon is at the level it was in the financial year 1956–57. That is considered by the War Office to be adequate training for the Territorial Army. If we find that the imposition of this restriction not to go above that level has any bad effect whatever upon the training of the Territorial Army, it will immediately be reviewed.

    Maryhill Barracks
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for War if he is now in a position to indicate when the barracks at Maryhill will be given up.
    The Under-Secretary of State and Financial Secretary for War (Mr. Julian Amery): No, Sir. The barracks will continue to be used as an infantry depot until some time next year. I am not yet in a position to say how long after that it will be before the other units in Maryhill Barracks can be moved elsewhere.
    Mr. Hannan: Will the Minister keep in mind the importance of this site to the local authority, and will he give an assurance that he will keep the authority informed as to developments?
    Mr. Amery: Yes, indeed.

    Defence (Central Organisation)
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Secretary of State for War what changes are to take place in his Department in consequence of the proposed change in the organisation of the Ministry of Defence.
    Mr. Soames: None, Sir.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman is completely satisfied with the new conception for the Ministry of Defence, and is there no truth in the report that he was about to resign because of these changes?
    Mr. Soames: As regards the right hon. Gentleman's last remark, can only imagine that the wish was father to the thought.

    Members' Constituents (Statements)
    Mr. Fernyhoughasked the Secretary of State for War what facilities he will place at the disposal of Members in order that they may check the statements of constituents serving abroad, prior to such statements being submitted to him for investigation.
    Mr. Soames: I am glad to investigate any matters put to me by right hon. and hon. Members, and I would not expect them to make preliminary inquiries, particularly when their constituents are serving overseas. I shall certainly not complain if some of the statements made turn out to be incorrect.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman is giving us an assurance that, whatever communications we send to him from constituents serving abroad, it will never in any circumstances involve us in any court proceedings?
    Mr. Soames: That was rather a broad conclusion to draw from what I said. I was not referring to the legal aspect of it at all, about which, as the hon. Gentleman knows from what the Prime Minister said yesterday, a statement is to be made shortly to the House.
    Mr. Strachey: Might it not be reasonable for the right hon. Gentleman to agree that, in so far as it lay in his power, he would not pass on these communications to persons who might take legal action but would regard them as confidential between the Member and himself while they were being investigated? That seems to me the reasonable protection we could ask for.
    Mr. Soames: Certainly I will regard any communications marked "confidential" as so being, but I could not give a view as to the legal aspects of that.

    Religious Services and Church Parades
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for War approximately what percentage of officers and other ranks now volunteer to attend religious services and church parades, previously obligatory; whether those professing no
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    particular denominational adherence are still classified as members of the Church of England; and whether he will now consider in future appointing Anglican and Free Church chaplains on a basis of numerical equality.
    Mr. Soames: No record is kept of the numbers who voluntarily attend religious services and church parades in the Army. It is laid down that a soldier's religious beliefs must be classified strictly in accordance with his own declaration. Army chaplains are already appointed for the Anglican and the Free Churches in proportion to the total number of each denomination in the Army as shown by a census undertaken every five years.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is rather misleading? Without any implicit or explicit hostility towards the Church of England—quite the reverse—is it not true to say that, broadly speaking, the Free Churches numerically are about the same strength as the Anglican Church and that those who put themselves down as "C. of E." very often are quite indifferent? In the circumstances, will not he consider this matter again?
    Mr. Soames: The only proper way to record a soldier's religion is to rely on his declaration when he is asked for it.

    Stores (Waste)
    Mr. Doddsasked the Secretary of State for War if he will make a statement giving details of the machinery that exists in his Department for keeping a check on those responsible for ordering supplies with a view to avoiding waste and invoking disciplinary action where necessary; and how often action has been taken, and in what way, since 1st January, 1954, where mistakes have been made in the ordering of supplies which have resulted in a substantial loss of public money.
    Mr. Soames: All orders for stores are checked by the Ordnance Services and by finance branches. Since 1954, improvements have been made in our procedure following reports of the Public Accounts Committee, but no negligence or misdemeanour has come to light which would call for disciplinary action.
    Mr. Dodds: If machinery is in existence such as the right hon. Gentleman

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    suggests, why, when I have raised with him over several weeks the question of the scandal of the production of over £2 million worth of boots which were never wanted and which have been for so long in store, could he not answer the question and say what his Department has done about it instead of making the excuse that he must await the Report of the Public Accounts Committee?
    Mr. Soames: As the Prime Minister told the hon. Gentleman some time back now, this matter is being examined by the Public Accounts Committee, which will report to the House, and it is a tradition of the House that we should await such a report.
    Mr. Dodds: But does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that when the Prime Minister answered he was answering a question about the changing of the Committee? The answer was to the effect that he must wait and see what the Public Accounts Committee had to say about it. But that is nothing to do with the machinery of the right hon. Gentleman's Department to prevent the waste of public money.

    Frank Mitchell (Escape)
    Mr. Doddsasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware of the concern arising from the fact that soldiers ordered to search for Frank Mitchell, a mental patient, after his escape from Broadmoor, were armed with sten guns; and if he will make a statement giving the number of soldiers so armed and details of the orders given to them as to the use of the automatic weapons.
    Mr. Soames: Some 400 troops were used, of whom seven officers and five N.C.Os. were armed with revolvers or sten guns. They were ordered to carry their guns unloaded and not to load or fire unless any of their men were in imminent danger. Shortly after the search began, it was decided that the weapons were unnecessary and all ammunition was withdrawn.
    Mr. Dodds: But does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the change of policy, that, in hunting a mental patient, soldiers were armed with sten guns? Even if they are without ammunition, is he not aware that many people are certified for far less good reason than that, and if they have it, are there not more
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    terrible risks involved merely in trying to obtain the return of one mental patient? Will he see that this is stopped in future?
    Mr. Soames: When acting in support of the civil power, the Army does not carry weapons, but in this particular instance, at 1 o'clock in the morning, the commanding officer at Arborfield Barracks was approached by the police and asked to provide a number of troops to help in searching for this man. He was told that the man was dangerous and might, it was thought, be armed with something, and the officer concerned did what he thought wise for the protection of his troops.

    Sergeant J. Gribbin
    Mr. Simmonsasked the Secretary of State for War (1) why 7377842 Sergeant J. Gribbin, No. 36 Company, Royal Army Medical Corps, Tripoli, Libya, as a consequence of his communication to the hon. Member for Brierley Hill concerning the state of the stores at the Tripoli Military Hospital, was derated from his trade as Dispenser, Group A, Class I, and demoted from staff sergeant to sergeant, and is now threatened with being sent home in disgrace;
    (2) why Staff Sergeant Gribbin was ordered to bury medical stores on taking over post as dispenser-storeman at the British Military Hospital, Tripoli; why dangerous drugs, including morphine and cocaine, were poured down the drain; and why five portable operating tables, valued at £40 10s. each, were left to rust in the open;
    (3) whether it was with his authority that the Director-General of Medical Services, in view of the fact that Sergeant Gribbin had unearthed criminal activities on the part of his predecessors and superiors, charged him with being the most disloyal non-commissioned officer he had ever known; and if he will cause the Director-General of Medical Services to be censured and the home posting of Sergeant Gribbin to be cancelled.
    Mr. J. Amery: Sergeant Gribbin was employed in the medical stores section at the hospital in Tripoli from October to December, 1957. In December, he took over as storeman on the departure of another N.C.O.

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    He complained about the state of the stores accounts, and when he was not satisfied with the answer he wrote to the hon. Member for Brierley Hill (Mr. Simmons). He also sought an interview with the Director-General of Army Medical Services who was visiting Tripoli. During the course of that interview, the Director-General censured him for his demeanour and attitude to his unit, but undertook to have his complaints investigated.
    Arrangements had, in fact, already been made, as a result of the earlier representations, for a board of officers, supported by the Special Investigation Branch, to check the stores. They found that the accounts had been inefficiently kept. Stocktaking revealed stores deficient to the value of £12 and surplus to the value of £250. There was no question of dishonesty and the hon. Member is mistaken in his reference to criminal activities. It was felt that the inefficient book-keeping called for no disciplinary action, but there has been a change of command at the hospital.
    Sergeant Gribbin was perfectly correct and indeed carrying out his duty in bringing the accounting errors to light. He has not been made to suffer for doing so.
    Sergeant Gribbin's reduction in rank arose from an entirely different matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I apologise for the length of the answer, but it is in reply to three Questions. It was the sentence of a court-martial in May for an offence under Section 33 of the Army Act, 1955. I have already notified the hon. Member that the change of trade classification was irregular and will be cancelled.
    The disposal of stores referred to by the hon. Member was perfectly in order. All the medical stores which were disposed of had been condemned as being unfit for medical use. Similarly, the operating tables had been condemned as unservicable.
    We consider it to be in Sergeant Gribbin's own interests that he should be given a new post in the United Kingdom and this is being arranged.
    Mr. Simmons: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is an entirely unsatisfactory answer? Is he further aware that this man has eighteen years' service in the Army and that he has had eleven years in his present trade rating? Is it not a
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    fact that after I had been told that Sergeant Gribbin's allegations were agreed substantially by the Minister he was derated and that he was only rerated after my private representations? Further, is it not a fact that he was court-martialled for refusing to disobey a written order at the order of an officer and that he has been subjected to all kinds of traps and tricks since he dared to bring this matter to public attention in order to make his life intolerable?
    Can the Minister say whether it is true that his posting to this country has been cancelled and, if this soldier is posted to this country, that accommodation will be found for his wife and four children who are with him and that he will suffer no further reduction in rank as a result of this affair?
    Mr. Amery: I have looked into the whole question very carefully, and the length of my Answer testifies to the interest that we have taken in it. I am satisfied that there has been no victimisation in any way of Sergeant Gribbin. He is being posted to this country. The question of his accommodation is one which I had not noticed, and I therefore could not answer it off the cuff.
    Mr. Strachey: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that this case causes very great concern and anxiety? It is not in issue between us, because the Under-Secretary has agreed that Sergeant Gribbin was performing a public service in exposing deficiencies in these accounts. Is it not a most unfortunate coincidence, to say the least of it, that at the same time he has lost rank, or was threatened with the loss of rank,—[An HON. MEMBER: "He lost it."]—he lost it at one time, but I understand that he has been reinstated. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I understand that that is not so. I understand that he has definitely lost rank and has had this posting away. Will the Under-Secretary agree that the very least that could be done would be to hold an inquiry into this matter, because it seems—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am really astonished at hon. Members opposite who have the interests of the Army at heart—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I agree with the importance of the question, but it seems to me to be a very good case to raise on the Adjournment, when the matter can be

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    thoroughly discussed. It makes rather an encroachment into the time available for Questions if we try to argue this matter now.
    Mr. Strachey: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, this concerns three Questions. The Under-Secretary gave a very long reply, quite rightly, to three Questions. This is an important case. Surely we are entitled to ask him whether he will have this matter looked into, not just by himself and his Department dealing with information which comes to them, but by some proper inquiry.
    Mr. Amery: I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman is quite seized of the facts of the case. There has been an extremely close inquiry, both by officers and by the Special Investigation Branch. I told the House in almost excessive detail the results of the inquiry. Any irregularities there have been have been brought to light and corrected. There has been no victimisation of Sergeant Gribbin. As I said, he has been posted home and there has been a change in the command.
    Mr. Simmons: Will the Minister call a civil inquiry into the allegations and the treatment of this man? He has been demoted from staff sergeant to sergeant and he is being sent back to this country against his will. Will the hon. Gentleman guarantee that the allegations made by Sergeant Gribbin will not land him into any legal difficulties because of the lack of privilege involved?
    Mr. Amery: The hon. Gentleman must get the facts straight. The demotion was connected with a court-martial proceeding which was quite independent of the other matter concerning the disposal of the stores. I am not prepared to pursue the matter any further now.
    Mr. Simmons: On a point of order. I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment. It is disgusting.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Charges
    Mr. Watkinsasked the Postmaster-General whether he has considered recently abolishing or reducing the extra charges asked of subscribers who live
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    three miles or over from a telephone exchange.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Kenneth Thompson): No, Sir. The present charges for these lines do not cover our costs.
    Mr. Watkins: If one accepted that point of view, there would be no concessions made by the Postmaster-General. In view of the fact that this is the only service which has not been looked into recently and improved, will the hon. Gentleman look into it for the sake of dealing with the problem of rural depopulation?
    Mr. Thompson: We are aware how troublesome this problem can be in some areas, but we do subsidise this kind of service already.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Postmaster-General how many communications or representations he has received from Methodists and other religious organisations in respect of hardships imposed on ministers of religion in the course of their pastoral duties because of the new scale of telephone charges linked with the time limits imposed for local calls.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Representations have been made on behalf of one Methodist Circuit and two individual ministers of religion. The representations were mainly concerned with the general principle of timing local calls.
    Mr. Sorensen: Will the hon. Gentleman reply to the communication which I have received from Methodists in my area, explaining why it is that he cannot do as they suggest?
    Mr. Thompson: Yes, Sir. A letter setting out in some detail the reasons which prompted my right hon. Friend to recommend the timing of local calls has been prepared.

    Kiosks (Design)
    Mr. Willeyasked the Postmaster-General whether he will make a statement on the proposed new design for telephone kiosks.
    Mr. K. Thompson: It has not yet been possible to come to a conclusion. Models incorporating preliminary sketches by three eminent designers are being considered in consultation with the Council

    1225
    of Industrial Design and the Royal Fine Art Commission.
    Mr. Willey: While congratulating the Postmaster-General on his initiative, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that this is a very important item of street furniture? Could these three designs be exhibited somewhere in the House?
    Mr. Thompson: As soon as we have reached the stage at which we think the designs offered are "in the race", if I may put it that way, perhaps we can consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.

    London
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Postmaster-General what recent cuts he has made in the service provided for telephone subscribers in the London area; and whether faults on subscribers' lines can still be dealt with at any hour.
    Mr. K. Thompson: Improved maintenance, and testing techniques, have made it possible to withdraw engineering staff previously employed at night at certain exchanges, but there has been no change in the service provided for subscribers. Our arrangements enable cases of real urgency to be dealt with at any hour. If the hon. Member has a particular difficulty in mind and will let me have details, I will gladly make inquiry.
    Mr. Robinson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I was informed that a fault in my own telephone line could not be attended to between 5.45 p.m. and the following morning? If this is not imposing a great inconvenience on telephone subscribers I should like to know what is. Since we have had a great deal of publicity about the improvements made in the telephone service by his right hon. Friend, could we not be told about the balancing cuts which are also made?
    Mr. Thompson: I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman has had the difficulty to which he refers. It seems to me to be an incorrect decision for someone to take. We try to keep a balance between reasonably high standards of service and the kind of costs which the service will bear.

    North Shields Exchange
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Postmaster-General when the North Shields telephone exchange will be converted to the automatic system.
    Mr. K. Thompson: The building of the new exchange will start in October next, and it is hoped to complete the conversion to automatic working, with subscriber trunk dialling facilities, by the end of 1961. My hon. Friend's constituents will be among the earlier telephone subscribers to enjoy the advantages of the new system.
    Dame Irene Ward: Might I ask my hon. Friend to accept our thanks for that? If he can speed it up further, so much the better for the North.

  POST OFFICE

    Postal Services, Poole
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the Postmaster-General if, in view of the representations made to him, he has any statement to make about improvements in the Poole postal services.
    Mr. K. Thompson: My right hon. Friend is having all practicable steps taken to avoid a repetition of the regrettable mistakes to which my hon. and gallant Friend has drawn his attention.
    Captain Pilkington: Is my hon. Friend aware that the very speedy action which his right hon. Friend took in this case was very much appreciated? Will he agree that it is particularly important that business firms should get their letters early and regularly?
    Mr. Thompson: Yes, we do try to maintain a uniformly high standard of service throughout the country.

    New Stamps
    Mr. Knox Cunninghamasked the Postmaster-General when he proposes to issue the special stamp for Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Llewellynasked the Postmaster-General when he proposes to issue the distinctive stamps for the different parts of the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Gowerasked the Postmaster-General when he proposes to issue the distinctive stamps for England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, respectively.
    Mr. K. Thompson: The new 3d. stamps for Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Monmouthshire, Jersey, Guernsey and the

    1227
    Isle of Man, will be put on sale on Monday, 18th August. The new 6d. and 1s. 3d. stamps for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales and Monmouthshire will be put on sale on Monday, 29th September. Details of the designs of the twelve stamps will be published shortly before the 3d. denominations are issued.
    Mr. Knox Cunningham: I thank my hon. Friend for his reply, which will give satisfaction to many people in Northern Ireland. Can he say whether it is intended to change the design of these stamps from time to time?
    Mr. Thompson: I am glad to have my hon. Friend's assurance that these new designs will be welcome. I think we had better see how we go along before we commit ourselves to changing them.
    Mr. Gower: As there has been a good deal of evidence that the Post Office is becoming more adventurous in the matter of the designs of stamps, can my hon. Friend say whether it is intended in future to embark on more pictorial designs advertising the beauty of this country and the great and significant happenings in our history?
    Mr. Thompson: My own view is that the present policy of the Post Office of very limited extension of our stamp range is probably the right one.
    Mr. Lipton: When are we going to have some cheaper stamps?
    Mr. Thompson: We have stamps at a wide range of prices, if the hon. Gentleman will inquire at any of our offices.

  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION

    Band III (Channels)
    Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Postmaster-General if he will publish the advice he has had from the Television Advisory Committee relative to the allocation of further channels in Band III.
    Mr. K. Thompson: No, Sir. The Television Advisory Committee has not submitted a formal report on this matter. It did, however, advise my right hon. Friend regarding a number of plans on
    1228
    which channel allocations in Band III might proceed. He has adopted one which will make possible a first coverage in Band III of 98 per cent. and, as he said last week, another Band III television service with substantial national coverage if this were to be decided upon.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Is not the Assistant Postmaster-General aware that his predecessor always published these reports? Is it not highly desirable that the House should have the maximum information about the use of these channels, in view of the interests of those parts of the country which have no television at all?
    Mr. Thompson: The right hon. Gentleman may be in danger of falling into an error. I do not think it is true that everything the Advisory Committee has done has been the subject of a report. It is true that two reports some years ago were published. In the opinion of my right hon. Friend, it would be wrong if everything about which the Committee advised him were to be the subject of a report to be published, perhaps to become the centre of a controversy over a wider range than was originally intended.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there will be a very great deal of controversy about the allocation of these channels? As injustice may be done to some parts of the country and as other parts may get very preferential treatment, ought not the House to be in possession of the information?
    Mr. Thompson: This is at the heart of a great many controversial matters affecting television. The right hon. Gentleman and the House may be assured that they will be brought into cognisance of the intentions of the Post Office and the industry before too deep a committal is made anywhere.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Will the hon. Gentleman at least put the report in the Library for hon. Members to see?
    Mr. Thompson: I will consider whether it is a report which can be put there without it being more misleading than helpful.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Maintenance Units, Kirkbride and Silloth
    Dr. D. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for Air what are his intentions in regard to the No. 12 Maintenance Unit, Kirkbride, and the No. 22 Maintenance Unit, Silloth; and what steps he is taking to assist any redundant civilian employees at these maintenance units to find alternative employment.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Charles Ian Orr-Ewing): We do not plan to close these aircraft storage units until 1960. It is impracticable to forecast at this stage what use may be made of the land and buildings after that. About two-thirds of the employees are established civil servants and will be offered transfer to other Government posts as near to their homes as possible. Unestablished employees will be helped to find other work under arrangements which we shall be making with the Ministry of Labour.
    Mr. Whitelaw: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that if these units have to be disbanded the local authorities and others concerned with providing alternative means of employment are most anxious to obtain the earliest possible decision from him as to the future of the sites and buildings?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: I will certainly bear that point in mind.

    Aircraft (Nuclear Weapons)
    Mr. Gibsonasked the Secretary of State for Air to what extent there has been a change in the former instruction forbidding bombers of the United States Air Force, loaded with the hydrogen bomb, to fly over London and other large cities in the United Kingdom while on practice flights.
    Sir F. Medlicottasked the Secretary of State for Air to what extent instructions are still in force prohibiting bombers carrying the hydrogen bomb from flying over London and over Norwich and other cities in the United Kingdom.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. George Ward): There has been no change in the earlier instructions covering this point.
    Mr. Gibson: Is the Minister aware of an article, published in The Times on 8th and 9th May, which gave a detailed description of the practice of the American Air Force of flying over populated districts and which said, among other things, that at times "the beast"—meaning the H-bomb—was lock-chained in the bomber's belly, and that the target in the London area was the north-west corner of the E.M.I. factory at Hayes? Is he aware that that appeared not only in the New York Times Magazine but in The Times of London itself, and that it contradicts entirely the reply which the right hon. Gentleman has given me and the reply which the Prime Minister gave me in March?
    Mr. Ward: I am not responsible for what appears in the Press. All I can do is to assure the hon. Gentleman that when aircraft fly over towns for practice radar exercises they do not carry these bombs.
    Sir F. Medlicott: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his answer is reassuring, bearing in mind the fact that the advantage of flying over cities and towns must be very small when set against the disastrous consequences which could follow any mishap?

    N.A.T.O. Air Show, Liege
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Secretary of State for Air what Royal Air Force aircraft were exhibited at the static display at the recent North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Air Show in Liege.
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: Valiant, Vulcan, and Shackleton aircraft were due to be exhibited in the static display, as were also Bloodhound and Firestreak missiles. As the Valiant and the Vulcan were to take part in the flying display, the organisers found it necessary to ask that they should be parked outside the static enclosure.
    Mr. de Freitas: Why was it so badly planned? Is it not a fact that, as a result, the only British aircraft in this "shop window"—the static display—were very old indeed—Shackletons—and created a very bad impression on people visiting the show?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: It is true we had expected that the Vulcan and the Valiant would be parked in the static enclosure but would come out for a flying display

    1231
    as at Farnborough and Stavanger. It was only at the last moment that the organisers made this ruling, and we had no alternative but to obey it.

    Queen's Flight Aircraft (Flight)
    Mr. Bairdasked the Secretary of State for Air what expense was caused to his Department by the flight of an aircraft of the Queen's flight from Acklington to White Waltham, near Windsor, on Sunday, 29th June.
    Mr. Ward: About £40 in fuel.
    Mr. Baird: Is it not a fact that the officers and men who were alerted for the flight are not included in the figure? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that there was a tremendously gross waste of public money on this unnecessary trip?
    Hon. Members: No.

    Married Airmen (Allowances)
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for Air (1) why, under his regulations, married airmen under the age of 21 years are not eligible for married quarters, passage for wife, disturbance allowance, and local overseas allowance which are normally available to other married airmen; and whether he will take steps to remove this discrimination.
    (2) whether Mrs. Barbara Leech, 11 Brown Road, Darlaston, whose husband is a leading aircraftman serving in Singapore, is entitled, under his regulations, to the normal passage allowance and local overseas allowance to enable her to join her husband.
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: Although airmen under 21 are eligible for marriage allowance, we consider that the other benefits to which the hon. Member refers should be reserved for older men. I am afraid, therefore, that Mrs. Leech, whose husband is just 20, is ineligible for a passage to join him in Singapore, at the taxpayer's expense.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is widely regarded as an unnecessary and undue interference with the civil rights of married airmen under the age of 21 that they do not get the same facilities as married airmen over that age? Can he say what the Service reasons are for the discrimination?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: I think that if extra public money were available the House would feel that it should be distributed on extra benefits and extra incentives over the whole Service rather than concentrated on trying to persuade young airmen to get married at an earlier age.

    Missiles
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has completed planning the manpower required for the maintenance and operation of Blue Streak and other missiles.
    Mr. Ward: The first six of the new trades required have already been introduced, and personnel establishments for the operation and servicing of certain of the earlier missiles have been laid down. The detailed manpower requirement for Blue Streak will, of course, be easier to assess when we have some experience of Thor.
    Mr. de Freitas: Is it not clear already that the trades and skills required for this operation and maintenance are so different from those of the conventional Air Force units that consideration should be given to recasting the traditional organisation of squadrons, wings and groups?
    Mr. Ward: I think I am right in saying that the hon. Member's next Question covers that point, but on the training side, of course, we have invited airmen from the aircraft, armament, electrical and radio engineering trades to volunteer for these new trades, and they are coming forward in large numbers.
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the unusual manning requirements for the operation and maintenance of missiles, he has considered adopting the type of organisation which was used in such forces as Anti-Aircraft Command and Balloon Command.
    Mr. Ward: This form of organisation would not meet our concept of a future war. The degree of readiness which any missile unit, either deterrent or defensive, has to attain is so high that we could not rely on the part-time service, however skilled or devoted, on which Anti-Aircraft and Balloon Commands were founded.

    Recruiting
    Wing Commander Bullusasked the Secretary of State for Air whether the recent improvement in recruiting extends to ex-airmen who have re-enlisted for service.
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: Yes, Sir. The number of ex-airmen rejoining for further service during the first quarter of this year already showed a welcome increase over the figure for the first quarter of 1957. In the second quarter the figure was more than two and a half times as large as in the comparable period last year.
    Wing Commander Bullus: Has my hon. Friend any information to show what are the main factors in this very encouraging trend?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: We have undertaken a small survey, and it appears that airmen are re-enlisting for three main reasons. Firstly, there are the comradeship and the interest of the Service. Secondly, there are the savings in personal and family expenditure. Until people live in civil life they often do not realise how much things cost. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Thirdly, there is the opportunity which the Service gives for training a man in his trade and giving him a secure future.

    Defence (Central Organisation)
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Secretary of State for Air what changes are to take place in his Department in consequence of the proposed changes in the organisation of the Ministry of Defence.
    Mr. Ward: None, Sir.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does this mean that the right hon. Gentleman has won his battle against the Minister of Defence? What has the fuss been about and all these reports in the newspapers and all the rumours about the right hon. Gentleman's resignation? Has he withdrawn his resignation? Can he give the exact date when he withdrew it, and did he withdraw it simply because he had won the battle?
    Mr. Ward: I and all my colleagues have remained on very friendly terms. The right hon. Gentleman's allegations are quite unfounded.
    Mr. Shinwell: Do I understand that the only answer the right hon. Gentleman can give is that he remains on friendly terms with the Minister of Defence? Are we to understand that the more things change the more they remain the same?

  CIVIL AVIATION

    London Airport and Gatwick (Services)
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what arrangements are being made for quick transport between London and Gatwick Airports for passengers in transit from the north and south; and to what extent there will be through air services by-passing London.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Airey Neave): My right hon. Friend has approved B.E.A.'s application for an air service between London Airport and Gatwick, but its introduction is a matter of commercial judgment. At present transit traffic, which is insignificant, is for the Channel Islands, to which there are still direct services from London Airport as well as from numerous provincial towns.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the speeding up already apparent in transit by bus from London Airport is appreciated by all passengers? I am quite sure that prospective passengers will have noted it.
    Mr. Neave: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman.

  TRANSPORT

    British Transport Commission (Losses and Capital Expenditure)
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what revision of the estimates of the revenues of the British Transport Commission contained in Command Paper No. 9880, Proposals for the Railways, has been made as a result of the changed circumstances arising from the matter contained in the 1957 Report and Accounts of the Commission and the losses incurred by the omnibus strike; and if he will publish the figures.
    The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Harold Watkinson): As the Chairman of the British Transport Commission stated on 25th June, when the Commission's Report and Accounts for 1957 were published, the Commission does not seek to be relieved of the commitment accepted in the White Paper of 1956 (Cmd. 9880) to bring its accounts into balance by 1961–62, even though several of the general conditions which the Commission postulated at the time have not been fulfilled entirely and consistently. No revision in the estimates has therefore been made.
    Mr. Davies: While it is to be hoped that the optimistic predictions of the Chairman of the Commission are fulfilled, is it not a fact that conditions have changed since publication of the White Paper two years ago? In view of the House's commitments in the matter of the financing of the Commission, are we not entitled to have more up-to-date estimates than those prepared at that time?
    Mr. Watkinson: No doubt the hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity of going into this in the debate tomorrow. In the meantime, I support what the Chairman has said, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman does so too.
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what consultations he has had with the Chairman of the British Transport Commission concerning the losses caused by the bus strike, with a view to giving the Commission a general direction in regard to the level of fares in London in view of their influence on the level of fares nationally.
    Mr. Watkinson: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson) on 30th June.
    Mr. Davies: Whilst it would be very regrettable if it were necessary to increase fares in London, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied that the economies mentioned in the reply to which he has referred me will not impair in any way the efficiency of London Transport? Is it not a fact that London Transport has the reputation of having one of the best metropolitan transport services in the world? We do
    1236
    not want to do anything that will impair the system.
    Mr. Watkinson: I do not think they will impair the services, but they will no doubt materially reduce them.
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will now authorise the British Transport Commission to proceed with the capital investment programme in full which was planned by the regional boards and presented to the Commission, but curtailed by capital cuts imposed upon them.
    Mr. Watkinson: The regional programmes for investment in the railways in 1958 and 1959 never reached the stage of being considered for authorisation by the British Transport Commission. The additional £25 million which the Government authorised last May is as much as the Commission felt it could usefully spend. It brings the level of investment well above that planned when the restrictions were imposed and will enable the Commission to accelerate the projects that will give an early financial return.
    Mr. Davies: In view of the relaxation of control over private investment, will not the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to obtain authority to allow the Transport Commission to develop its programme as speedily as possible and not continue to impose restrictions on the Commission?
    Mr. Watkinson: The hon. Gentleman cannot have heard what I said. I said that the additional £25 million which the Government authorised last May was as much as the Commission felt it could usefully spend.

    Motor Vehicles (Mud Nuisance)
    Mr. Hastingsasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether his attention has been called to the clouds of finely-divided mud thrown into the atmosphere by heavy motor vehicles in wet weather; and whether he will make regulations to deal with this nuisance.
    Mr. Watkinson: The provision of wings or other similar fittings to catch the mud and water thrown up by vehicle wheels is always a statutory requirement. I do not think that the addition of any

    1237
    further regulations would materially improve the situation.
    Mr. Hastings: Although I did not fully hear the reply, does the right hon. Gentleman realise that a good deal could be done by properly designed mudguards, and that the inhalation of finely divided mud is not only unpleasant but also unhealthy?
    Mr. Watkinson: I quite agree.

    Garages, London
    Mr. Partridgeasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if, in view of his repeated insistence on the urgent need for more multi-storey car parks in London, he will consult the London County Council with a view to relaxation of their building standards for open-sided garages so as to reduce their cost.
    Mr. Watkinson: We have consulted the London County Council and I am glad to say that they have already approved revised safety standards for open-sided garages. Details of the relaxations are contained in an Appendix to their publication "Construction of Buildings in London", which, with permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I particularly welcome this practical step, which will do much to encourage the provision of much-needed garages in London.
    Following is the information:
    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL BUILDINGS OF EXCESS HEIGHT AND/OR ADDITIONAL CUBICLE CONTENT REQUIRING APPROVAL UNDER SECTION 20 OF THE LONDON BUILDING ACTS (AMENDMENT) ACT, 1939
    Principles for the guidance of applicants in the preparation of proposals to be submitted for the Council's consideration and information as to conditions that may be imposed by the Council when approving proposals.

    Appendix "D"
    Open sided garages on sites with satisfactory access for fire-fighting, subject to control under section 20 of the London Building Acts (Amendment) Act, 1939 and the Petroleum (Regulation) Acts, 1928 and 1936.
    Where the structure can be erected a safe distance from adjoining property, or where a satisfactory standard of separation can be achieved between the structure and adjoining property the relevant principles concerning enclosed garages may be relaxed and sprinkler installation, separations across large floor areas and, in certain cases, between storeys,
    1238
    and mechanical ventilation above ground level may be omitted.
    Each scheme submitted will be examined with a view to economy in structural and other fire precautions.
    W. O. HART,
    Clerk of the Council.
    The County Hall.
    Westminster Bridge, S.E.1.

    Bus Fares (Appeals)
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many appeals he has had in the last twelve months from bus undertakings against increases of fares laid down by Traffic Commissioners; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Watkinson: Two, Sir: One was against an increase granted by the Traffic Commissioners which the operator considered to be too low; this appeal was dismissed. The second was against increases which the Traffic Commissioners thought necessary to afford protection to another operator. I was prepared to allow this appeal, but in the meantime the appellant surrendered the licence for reasons not connected with the appeal.
    Mr. Gower: In a case where bus undertakings are trying to keep their fares down, is it not most unsatisfactory that the Traffic Commissioners should run counter to the policy of keeping down the cost of living?
    Mr. Watkinson: That is why I was prepared to allow the appeal.
    Mr. H. Morrison: On a point of order. Can anything be done to persuade the Minister of Transport to speak up? It has been very difficult to hear. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up."] I think hon. Members opposite can hear me quite well. I do not know whether the Minister has anything to hide, but it would be for the convenience of the House generally if, in answering Questions, he spoke in a manner which enabled us to hear what he said.
    Mr. Speaker: I do not know how far that is a point of order to me. There was a good deal of conversation on both sides of the House. I hope that in the debate which lies before us conditions of audibility will be greatly improved.

  ROADS

    Birmingham-Preston Motorway
    Mr. H. Fraserasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation when work will begin on that part of the north Birmingham-north Preston motorway which by-passes the borough of Stafford.
    Mr. Watkinson: Draft Orders setting out my proposals for alterations to the side roads and private accesses affected by this motorway are being prepared, and provided there are no serious objections to these Orders and no unusual difficulties in the acquisition of land, I expect construction of the motorway to begin late in 1959 or early in 1960.

    Tyne Tunnel
    Mr. Popplewellasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will now give an estimate of the date when work will be commenced on the Tyne Tunnel.
    Mr. Watkinson: On 9th June, the Tyne Tunnel Joint Committee submitted revised proposals to me for the construction of the tunnel and its approaches. These must be considered in detail before the scheme can be authorised. I cannot yet say when work will be started.
    Mr. Popplewell: I appreciate that a great deal of thought must be given to this matter, but could the right hon. Gentleman indicate when he hopes that he might be able to give some further indication to the House on it?
    Mr. Watkinson: I am afraid that I cannot, but I am anxious that this work should proceed as soon as the preparatory examination has been done.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings on the Chequers Estate Bill, the State of Singapore Bill and the Report of the Committee on Army and Air Expenditure, 1956–57, exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Heath.]

MIDDLE EAST
3.32 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): We have to discuss today grave events in the Middle East of far-reaching consequences for many countries. It is impossible for many of us not to be affected by the personal tragedies involved in the reports from Bagdad, if they are true—and we still hope that they are untrue.
I have a little further information to give the House about the situation in Bagdad itself. Her Majesty's Ambassador is still in a Bagdad hotel and his movements and those of his staff seem to be restricted. We have no direct means of communication, but I have received messages indirectly. From these, it appears that Her Majesty's Ambassador has seen leaders of the authorities in control in Bagdad and has received from them formal assurances that the personal safety and property of British subjects and others for whom Her Majesty's Government are responsible will be safeguarded. Her Majesty's Ambassador also made a formal protest about the failure to protect the safety of the Embassy and the lives of those in it.
The House may be interested to have a brief account of what took place at the Embassy in the morning of 14th July. About eight o'clock there were 24 people at the Embassy, including the Ambassador and Lady Wright. At that time, the regular Iraqi police guard was on duty outside. Later, an Army officer arrived saying that the Embassy would be protected by the Army. He left eight soldiers and went away. When a large crowd tried to break into the Embassy compound, neither the soldiers nor the police made any serious attempt to prevent them. Some of the crowd were armed. The Ambassador himself was shot at by a man in uniform at short range. They were obliged to retreat under fire to one of the Embassy offices. It was at this point that Colonel Graham was killed.
During the next one and a half hours the crowd looted and set on fire some of the Embassy buildings and they eventually said that they would set fire to the offices where the Embassy party were

1241
taking refuge unless they came out unarmed. They did so and were led by a soldier through the crowd and into the garden. After about 20 minutes, three armoured cars arrived and drove off the looters. The Ambassador was then taken to the hotel where he now is. I have no further information of any casualties or immediate danger to British subjects or property in Iraq.
The situation which gave rise to this debate today was the United States' action in regard to the Lebanon, which was announced yesterday. If I may go briefly into the history of events in the Lebanon, there has been mounting tension there over a period of months and subversive activity inspired from foreign sources. The tension increased as the period of President Chamoun's term of office drew to an end.
The rebellion was sparked off by the murder of a newspaper editor early in May. Her Majesty's Government are satisfied that, quite apart from the major foreign propaganda effort, there was substantial physical interference from outside and that the rebellion was being supported, supplied and directed from outside the Lebanon.
In those circumstances, Her Majesty's Government encouraged the Lebanese Government to go to the Security Council as quickly as possible. They did go to the Security Council, and the Security Council resolution was passed, the terms of which will be familiar to hon. Members, the relevant words being the establishing of
"an observation group to proceed to Lebanon so as to ensure that there is no illegal infiltration of personnel or supply of arms or other material across the Lebanese borders."
Our policy was to back that resolution and to back the United Nations operation. We genuinely hoped that that would be the best way to ensure or preserve the independence of the Lebanon. I say that although, under questioning, I always refused to exclude other possibilities.
I believe that the United Nations operation could have been successful had it been possible to see that a United Nations observer body of adequate size and with adequate equipment—by that I mean transport and means of communication—was enabled to carry out the task. All our influence was used with the Lebanese Government and with the Secretary-General
1242
of the United Nations himself to see that this was made possible.
There were, of course, obvious difficulties for the observer group. Much infiltration and movement of material had taken place before they arrived. They were few in number and it took them time to build up such equipment as they had. When they issued their first report they were in a position to observe only a small fraction of the frontiers of the Lebanon—I am told about 18 kilometres out of 278 kilometres. In fact, they were able to do that only by day. Their first report made quite clear the limitations placed upon their capacity to inspect particularly areas where the supply and infiltration were taking place. They also considered as excluded from their terms of reference intervention by propaganda attacks and subversive broadcasts from outside countries.
According to our information, for a time there was a pause in the intervention from outside, but over the past few days columns of vehicles have been seen crossing the frontier from Syria in the neighbourhood of Tripoli, where the insurgents were in some strength. This traffic has been taking place since the report of the observer group, and there was a feeling in the Lebanon that the observer body were reluctant to report these movements because of their judgment of the internal political situation in the Lebanon.
Mr. Harold Davies: What does that mean? What proof has the right hon. Gentleman of it?
Mr. Lloyd: It means exactly what I said. There was a feeling in the Lebanon that the observer body were reluctant to report these movements. Moreover, the observer group did not conceal their view that it would take a division of troops or something approaching a division for the job of sealing off the frontiers to be done properly.
In spite of what I have said, in the atmosphere which there was before last Monday we still hoped that the United Nations body would be built up and would be put into a position with the necessary authority and physical resources to carry out their assignment. I am making today no criticism of individuals or of the group. I am simply

1243
saying what was and what was not possible for them to do.
I think that the events of 14th July completely changed the situation. I think it was absolutely clear, in the atmosphere after the coup d'êtat in Bagdad and the plots against Jordan, that a body of observers operating in the manner which I have described could not guarantee the integrity and independence of the Lebanon. I should have thought that that would be self-evident.
The President of the Lebanon, in the atmosphere that there was after the news had come through of events in Bagdad, made an urgent appeal for help on Monday morning—an appeal for help on the borders of the Lebanon. The United States Government took a decision with which we entirely agreed. The reasoning behind the United States' action appears clearly in President Eisenhower's statement of yesterday. The United States decided to supply forces to protect American lives and, by their presence, to encourage the Lebanese Government in the defence of Lebanese sovereignty and integrity. There was a discussion of the matter with us and we agreed to this action.
The Security Council debated the situation yesterday and the debate is to be continued today. The United States has circulated a resolution asking the Secretary-General immediately to consult the Lebanese Government and other member States with a view to making such additional arrangements, including the contribution and use of contingents, as may be necessary to protect the territorial integrity and independence of Lebanon and to ensure that there is no illegal infiltration of personnel or supply of arms or other material across the Lebanese borders. That resolution has been circulated by the United States delegation, and we shall support it.
We have, however, to face the fact that apart from resolutions, speed is of the essence in these matters. I do not believe that had this appeal from the Lebanese Government been rejected, any small country would ever have felt again that its independence and integrity could be effectively protected.
The American landing has been well received. I have receved a report that
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some of the barricades are now being taken down in Beirut and that people have been seen doing their best to get rid of arms and ammunition. The situation in Tripoli is quieter; and on the tapes it is said that a cease-fire has been ordered by the rebel commanders. I should have thought that anybody would agree that that was all to the good.
I was asked certain questions yesterday about consultation with the Commonwealth. Throughout the course of events in the last two months, I have been in close touch with the Commonwealth Governments and their comments have been carefully considered. The Leader of the Opposition will, however, agree that to reveal the precise nature of confidential communications would make that kind of discussion not worth having.
Another question which I was asked concerned oil supplies. In the last eighteen months, a good deal of thought has gone into this question and the United States Government have participated fully in O.E.E.C. studies on the effects of serious interruption of oil supplies for Europe and on appropriate measures to cope with this problem should it occur. I think that the United States Government is fully aware of the complications of the present situation and we have no doubt that we can depend upon the United States to act in concert with other friendly countries to secure the maintenance of supplies. I would, however, also say that the position about stocks in this country and about tanker tonnage available is much better than it was two years ago.
I want to say a word or two about the more general situation in the Middle East. We have no quarrel with nationalism. We have done a great deal to meet the aspirations of nationalism in many parts of the world. Both sides of the House have responsibilities in that matter. We made no difficulty about modifying our treaty with Iraq concerning the handing over of the Habbaniya air base to the Iraqi Government. We agreed to the ending of the Anglo-Jordanian Treaty.
It is suggested that in these areas we support only reactionary régimes, whatever that may mean. So far as material developments are concerned, however, the achievements of the régime in Iraq were outstanding. It was the place where the oil revenues were spent most wisely. The

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statesmanship of the Iraqi leaders has provided great benefits for the people of that country. Perhaps they failed in not making clearer to their people how much had been done and there were, perhaps, certain weaknesses in the way of urbanisation; but so far as concerns the material results of the work of the Iraq Development Board, they were very much better than anything done in any other part of the Middle East. I spoke to somebody yesterday who had just been to the Iraq Development Week and he spoke of the great surprise with which he had seen the extent of the work that was being done.
So this is not a question of nationalism. It is part of the hostile propaganda to say that this is all a question of the West against Arab nationalism. The question is one of perverting nationalist feelings and perverting those who wish to overthrow the established order of society so that they serve to further indirect aggression.
The House must face up to the problems involved in this question of indirect aggression. It has been discussed more than once at the United Nations. A resolution was passed in December, 1949, calling upon States
"to refrain from any threats or acts, direct or indirect, aimed at impairing the freedom, independence or integrity of any State, or at fomenting civil strife and subverting the will of the people in any State."
There was another resolution—[Interruption.] I think I am right in saying that the Government of which the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) was a supporter voted for both these resolutions—called "Peace through Deeds", passed on 18th November. 1950, which condemned the
"intervention of a State in the internal affairs of another State for the purpose of changing its legally-established Government by the threat or use of force"
and solemnly reaffirmed that
"whatever weapons used, any aggression, whether committed openly, or by fomenting civil strife in the interests of a foreign Power, or otherwise, is the gravest of all crimes against peace and security throughout the world."
What happens? A foreign Government determines to use a dissident element within another State to overthrow the legitimate Government by force. The technique is the smuggling of arms and explosives, the infiltration of agents, a
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virulent propaganda campaign, incitement to insurrection and assassination and, finally, the plot against the lives of the constitutional leaders. That is the technique and that is the problem. We have to admit that no answer has yet been found to it. I believe that unless an answer is found, the independence and integrity of one small independent State after another is bound to be undermined and finally destroyed.
Sometimes the plots are found out and frustrated in time. I have a list of them. There was one in January, 1956, resulting in the Egyptian military attaché being expelled from Iraq. In November, 1956, the Libyan Government demanded the immediate recall of the Egyptian military attaché. In that case there was the discovery of explosives. In November, 1956, in the Lebanon, a vehicle filled with arms was seized. A vehicle full of high explosives was found in the house of the chauffeur to the Egyptian military attaché. In Ethiopia, in November, 1956, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs requested the immediate recall of the Egyptian military attaché. In March, 1956, the Egyptian Consul-General in Jerusalem was expelled for the same sort of reason. In Saudi Arabia, in 1957, the Egyptian military mission was expelled; arms were found coming from it. In June, 1957, in Jordan, again there was expulsion on the grounds of this technique of subversion.
In the present case, there was also the same kind of plot taking place in Jordan. During the last week, it was foiled. Unfortunately, the plot was not found out in time in Bagdad. I believe that the world must face up to this problem and devise a method of dealing, and dealing speedily and effectively, with this kind of effort to interfere with the integrity and the independence of nations.
I am not going to announce any new decision of the Government in these matters this afternoon. I think that the gravity of the situation must be apparent to all. It is a situation in which we feel it is necessary to keep in closest touch with the United States Government over the whole range of problems thrown up by these events.
I therefore propose to fly later this afternoon to Washington, at Mr. Dulles' invitation, for discussions with him, because however efficient communications

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systems may be—sometimes some of us think that they are almost too efficient these days—there is, in fact, no substitute for personal discussion of the whole range of problems thrown up by this extremely grave situation.
Mr. Leslie Hale rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is disorderly for an hon. Member to remain standing if the Member who has the Floor does not give way. I did not observe the Foreign Secretary give way.
Mr. Hale rose—
Mr. Lloyd: I think that the matters which we are considering are of such gravity that I should be permitted to put the Government's statement of the position without interruption.
On the general points of principle affecting indirect aggression, I believe that a country has the right to ask for help from other countries when it feels itself to be in danger. I believe that a country has the right to ask for help against aggression, whether direct or indirect. I believe, too, that another Government has the right to respond to such requests, and that such response is in accordance with the spirit of the Charter. I believe that this is in accordance with the established rules of international law. Unless countries are prepared to respond to such appeals for help, I think that we shall see one country after another go down to this form of aggression, and all the steps which we have taken under various Governments here which have furthered self-government, and which have created independent countries with full sovereignty over their affairs, will prove to have been in vain.
The Government of the Lebanon appealed to the United States Government for help. The United States Government decided to respond to that appeal. We have indicated our support for that action by the United States Government, and I believe that that decision will have the overwhelming approval of the people of this country.
3.53 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: Whatever differences of opinion may develop in the course of our discussion
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today I think that we would all wish to join in expressing regret at the death of Colonel Graham and our sympathy with the British nationals who have been placed in a very difficult position in Bagdad.
The Foreign Secretary said yesterday, and repeated today, that this was a very grave situation. I am sure that on both sides of the House that is appreciated, and that we shall conduct our debate today fully realising what is at stake. There is no doubt that since the revolution in Iraq a new chapter in the stormy history of the Middle East has been opened. The chapter is being written almost literally as we debate the problems here this afternoon. We regard this debate not as the only, the final, debate to be held on this matter, but as the first of what may have to be a series. We shall wish, naturally, to return to the subject later, in the light of what happens in the next few days.
This afternoon we are concerned solely with a discussion of the situation up to now, as it stands today. Even so, there is much uncertainty about exactly what has happened and what is happening. We do not know, the Government themselves do not know, exactly the nature of the position in Iraq. There are rumours that a division of the Iraqi forces is marching against the revolutionaries in Bagdad. It seems, though even this is not clear, that in Bagdad itself the revolutionaries are in control. We do not know the fate of King Feisal. We have only heard statements from the rebels of the deaths of the Crown Prince and of Nuries-Said. Furthermore, the Security Council has not yet concluded its debate on the subject, and I freely admit that the precise significance of the United States' intervention in the Lebanon is not yet quite clear.
For these reasons, and despite many grave anxieties and apprehensions which exist on this side of the House as to the action of the American Government, and while I shall have some questions to ask and some criticisms to put forward, we do not at present intend to divide the House this evening, unless a new development forces us between now and 10 o'clock to reconsider the matter. We make that decision bearing in mind that it is not desirable at such a critical moment that the country should be so openly divided, unless there is a tremendous issue of principle at stake where the

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Government and the Opposition are so much at loggerheads that a clear clash of views cannot be avoided and must be reflected in the Division Lobby.
Having said that, I wish to explain to the House why, in all sincerity, on these benches we are very apprehensive about what has been done. I do not know exactly what the Prime Minister meant last night, when he is reported as having said that it was better to be wrong but united than to be right and alone. I do not know whether that implies—he will, no doubt, take the opportunity to clear this up—that there is any hesitation on the Government side in this matter.
I wish to consider the American decision and to examine for a moment the arguments adduced in support of it. The first argument is that the troops were put in to protect American lives. I do not think that any of us would wish to challenge the right of a Government to protect their own nationals. That is accepted. However, I must point out that what is implied by that right is only intervention to remove the nationals from danger; a small-scale, moderate operation; an air lift, may be; something of that kind. I do not see how the landing of 5,000 Marines can be justified on the sole ground that it is necessary to protect the lives of 2,500 Americans.
We have to consider, then, the other reason given by the American Government, which I think most of us must agree was obviously what really weighed with them. I say, in passing, that if it was simply the lives of Americans, then they have been in some danger throughout all these last weeks while the civil war has been taking place in Lebanon. The second reason, which the Foreign Secretary has cited, was to assist the Government of the Lebanon to preserve their territorial integrity and their political independence.
The Foreign Secretary made some reference in the latter part of his speech to the legal situation and the right or absence of right of one nation to intervene in another at the invitation of a Government. I have done my best to study, in the short time available, the international law on this subject. I am afraid that it is not entirely clear. I concede that the presence or absence of outside intervention appears to weigh quite considerably in the matter. But I
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believe it is right to say that if there is a state of civil war, and there are clearly two sides involved and no evidence of outside intervention, then, according to international law, it is, to say the least, extremely doubtful whether intervention at the request of the Government in question is justified.
I would also just say this in general terms. It is extremely important to be careful what we say in this matter. There are Communist Governments in Eastern Europe. Those Governments, any one of them, might be faced with internal revolution. There might very well be—I am not speaking of Hungary today—such a revolution in Poland and there might be a request from the constitutional, if that is the right word, Government of Poland asking for assistance from the Soviet Union. We must be very careful in what we say in this matter, not to put ourselves in a position where we could not morally oppose intervention of that kind.
Nor do I feel that the intervention which has taken place can really be justified, so far, at any rate, under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. For there is not much doubt that that Article, in its reference to the right of self-defence or collective self-defence against armed attack, means armed attack across the frontier.
But I think that in all this one can scarcely ignore the past history of the Lebanon affair. Indeed, the Foreign Secretary referred to it in some detail. The fact of the matter is that the Lebanese Government themselves, I think quite properly, brought this matter to the notice of the Security Council, that the Security Council passed without dissent a resolution which, I think, was satisfactory to Her Majesty's Government, as it was to the Opposition here, that observers were then sent in, that the observers have produced one report and that, although that report may have seemed to some not entirely satisfactory, rather vague in places and not indicating that they had really got fully in control of the situation—I concede that straight away—nevertheless the point is that this situation was already being handled by the Security Council.
I feel myself that some very special circumstances would have to justify immediate action before and in advance

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of further consideration of this matter by the Security Council. Moreover, it is common ground that after the observers' report there was some hope, considerable hope—indeed, as recently as two days ago—that the Lebanese would settle this quarrel themselves.
Now, the explanation, the excuse, which has been put forward by the Foreign Secretary is the events in Iraq. I can only say that, disturbing as those events are—so far as I am aware—they have not been followed, or accompanied, by any threat of armed aggression across the Lebanese frontier.
I do not say more on the legal side. I do not wish to judge it precisely. I concede that it is very difficult to be sure of the exact legal position, but I think it not unreasonable to say that the intervention of the United States Government in advance of further consideration of the matter by the Security Council—and one would have thought it could have been brought to them yesterday afternoon before American troops were put in—is certainly contrary to the kind of procedure that the United States itself usually recommends in such cases.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Korea?
Mr. Gaitskell: The noble Lord reasonably refers to Korea. In Korea, there was without question an armed attack across the frontier, and immediate action was, in my view, and the view of the then Government, justified. I do not think that the position on the Lebanese-Syrian frontier is comparable to that in Korea.
However, I do not rest our apprehensions and criticisms of the American attitude principally upon doubts as to the legality of the action. I would put our feelings far more on the basis of whether this action, in the long run, was really wise from the point of view of Western interests in the Middle East. I do not deny that in the short run in the Lebanon the arrival of a powerful force of American marines may well have a stabilising effect. It would be surprising if that were not so, but I think that we should be deluding ourselves if we felt that we could applaud, as it were, and say, "That is that, and there is nothing further to
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worry about." Do we not have to ask ourselves some further questions here?
American troops have gone in. What exactly will they do? Are they to patrol the frontier? Are they simply concerned with the sealing of the frontier, with keeping out any possible Syrian attacks, or are they, so to speak, to be enlisted by the Lebanese Government to preserve order at home? How long is it contemplated that they will stay in the Lebanon? Under what circumstances is it envisaged that they might be withdrawn?
To that question, of course, there is one possible answer which has been given by the Americans themselves, that, if the United Nations were to introduce a force, then the Americans would themselves withdraw. I say straight away for myself that I would infinitely prefer to see a United Nations force on the Syrian-Lebanese frontier than an American force. But whether that will be possible or not is extremely problematical and I think one has to ask oneself the question: supposing that that does not happen, when and under what circumstances is it contemplated that the Americans will withdraw? When they withdraw, is it very likely, after all that has happened, that they will be able to leave in power a secure, democratically elected and pro-Western Government in the Lebanon? I should have thought the prospect was a very dim one indeed, for there is no use ignoring the internal situation in the Lebanon.
I agree with the Foreign Secretary—I have never denied this—that there is no doubt evidence of infiltration of arms, it may even be of armed bands although there is no clear, well-known evidence of that. But I think that even he would agree that if we are to judge by most of the Press reports from Beirut there was also a very considerable internal struggle, quite apart from any external assistance or infiltration there may have been. One has only to point out that the leader of the Christian Maronite Church in Beirut was, of course, wholly opposed to President Chamoun. Nor can there be much doubt that there was a great deal of anxiety because he was reluctant and for a long time refused to announce that he would not stand for a second term. I agree that his Government was a legally constituted one, but

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whether it was elected quite according to the electoral practices which are usually followed in this country is entirely another matter.
I do not say anything more on this subject than that there was clearly a strong internal movement against the present Lebanese Government. There was a fear that President Chamoun was going to maintain himself, by force, in power, or to force through again a change in the constitution which enabled him to be President for a third term. I do not wish to express any criticism of him. I had the pleasure of meeting him many years ago and I do not doubt that he is a friend of the West, but there is no use denying the fact that there has been in Press circles in Beirut—British Press circles—a widespread criticism of the exact way in which he has handled the situation.
But the most important point of all is this. Is not the intervention of American forces in the Lebanon only too likely to strengthen still further the very powerful anti-Western feelings which exist in that part of the world? If that is the case, I repeat, I do not see how, out of this intervention, we can reasonably hope for a more friendly and more stable Lebanon to emerge.
Our doubts and our anxieties about the situation, however, go rather further than the Lebanon. I must confess that we are seriously worried about the possibility of American or even of British intervention in other territories in the Middle East. I do not have in mind those parts of the Middle East where we have specifically and very clearly defined treaty obligations, nor am I thinking, of course, of the Colony of Aden or the Protectorates; but I am thinking—I will be quite frank about it—of Iraq and Jordan.
Candidly, and putting it at the moment very generally, if, indeed, the Americans contemplate, with or without British assistance, putting troops in Jordan and Iraq, I cannot help feeling that the only way we can make sense of an action of that kind is that they are attempting to set up a Government friendly to the West by force. I feel that we should hesitate before we commit ourselves to any such dangerous course of action.
I should like, if I may, to stand back for a moment and ask the House to look
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at what our interests are in the Middle East. I ventured to express them in a debate in February, 1956, and I believed then that there was fairly widespread agreement. We want, of course, to be able to buy the oil that we need from the Middle East. We want to be able to buy, at any rate, at reasonable prices, though all of us, I think, would feel that the peoples of that part of the world, living as they do on a very low standard of living, are entitled to a fair price for what, after all, is their main commodity.
We certainly want to have access to the oil and we would hope to be able to reach agreement with the Governments concerned on reasonable prices. I do not think myself, if I may say so, in passing, that we should insist that British or foreign companies should themselves actually carry out the oil exploitation. I do not wish to go all over the Persian situation, but when the oil industry in Persia was nationalised we did manage to reach a satisfactory agreement with the present Persian Government. I do not myself think that we can shirk the question of ownership very much longer. But I do not want to go into that now, because it is not immediately relevant to our discussion today.
Secondly, in addition to being able to buy our oil at reasonable prices, I would myself recognise that we have certain moral and political obligations as regards the Israeli-Arab problem. I do not think that we can escape them. I would say, thirdly, that, of course, it is contrary to our interests that there should be an extension of Communist control over the Middle East. Almost certainly that might be inconsistent with the first objective of buying the oil. Subject to that, if I may refer again to oil for a moment, there is every reason to believe that, whatever the Governments may be, unless they are actively hostile to us, they themselves will also wish to sell the oil. Pipelines run all in the direction of sales to Europe and the West and other parts of the world. So I do not believe that that is an insuperable difficulty.
In stating these objects, we have to face something else. That is that, in present circumstances and for some time now, we have acquired a reputation among the Arab people for being opponents of what they call Arab nationalism and also for being opponents of social revolution. I have said, more than once, that this

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reputation is one of our gravest disadvantages in contending with the threat of Communist propaganda in that part of the world. The Foreign Secretary declared that we were not opposed to Arab nationalism and he described the present situation there as virtually not being nationalism.
With respect, I cannot feel that the right hon. and learned Gentleman's description of the matter was really completely accurate. I do not think that we can ignore the fact—hon. Members who have been there and know something about the Middle East will, I think, confirm this—that when the Arabs speak of Arab nationalism today they do not mean so much the independence of individual countries such as Iraq and Jordan. What they mean is being able to come together in Arab unity.
This is a fact of which we are bound to take very serious note. There is this great explosive force of Pan-Arabism and it has been growing and growing and getting stronger and stronger all the time. The Foreign Secretary referred to the Government of Iraq and the efforts that they have made in developing their country, and I agree with him. There is no doubt that Iraq has done more with its oil revenues for economic development than any other country in the Middle East, but there is no denying that in Iraq itself the régime there was rather feudal in its character and, so far as development was concerned, it was, unfortunately, not associated with the solution of the very difficult land problem which affects the attitude of the Iraqi people.
Therefore, we must face the fact that up to now we have come in conflict with what I would call Arab nationalism or Pan-Arabism, and we have been regarded also, for reasons largely historical—let me concede that, because of our alliances with the Governments concerned—as the opponents of social revolution. I say categorically that I do not see that we can reach any ultimate solution in the Middle East unless, somehow or other, we are prepared to come to terms with the Pan-Arab movement. I know that it is easy to say that and that it is much more difficult to say exactly how we can do it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Israel."] An hon. Member mentioned Israel. Of course, it is a major problem there.
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Nevertheless, I repeat categorically that I do not think that we can solve our problem on the basis, to put it the other way round, of continued hostility between Arab nationalism and the West.
We have, of course, certain obligations also in the Middle East. We have the obligation—as any Government has—to protect British lives if they are in danger. I have already said, however, that the protection of British lives may require some intervention, but it is of a very different kind from the large-scale intervention which we are discussing this afternoon.
I agree, also, that we have certain treaty obligations against external aggression, and especially is that true of the Protectorates in the South. Whether it is still true of Iraq, it is difficult to say. It is no longer true of Jordan, because the Jordan Government have denounced the Treaty. What I do say, with all the emphasis I can command, is that these treaty obligations cannot, in our opinion, be extended so as to protect a particular Government from internal revolution. I do not see that we can justify the use of a treaty for that purpose. Whatever may be the evidence of external aggression in the case of the Lebanon, I have not heard so far, apart from propaganda on which seriously we could not alone justify intervention that in Iraq or Jordan there is any evidence of external aggression or intervention with armed force.
Therefore, I must say this afternoon to the Government, on this question of whether or not we are to intervene in Jordan and Iraq, that they must not assume that the Opposition can support or acquiesce in the use of British forces to aid the Government of Jordan to suppress the revolt in Iraq. I do not ask the Government any questions today. Governments always find it difficult to give answers to hypothetical questions, but I feel it my duty to warn them of what our attitude might be. So, Sir, at this stage I would urge upon the Government the very greatest caution in what they do.
The danger of the loss of oil has already been mentioned and I do not propose to pursue it further this afternoon. Again, it is hypothetical. It is true, as the Foreign Secretary has said, that the oil situation in the world generally is in a sense more favourable than it was

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two years ago. Nevertheless, in the long run, there could be grave economic dangers resulting from this intervention. Nor can one rule out altogether, though I have no desire to raise it as a threat or bogy, the possibility of Soviet intervention. We can only hope that this will not eventuate.
Even at this late stage, if the United Nations would take over the police function in the Lebanon and American troops were withdrawn, we might yet be able to do what I believe will eventually be essential, to come to terms with Arab nationalism. If, on the contrary, we were to attempt to impose by force our will in the Middle East to re-establish, as it were, a system of government which may have been possible, even justifiable, in the nineteenth century, but in modern conditions seems to us utterly inappropriate and profoundly dangerous, then, if that were to happen, I can only say, God help us all.
I hope that the Government will respond in the spirit in which I have tried to express our fears. Although there are strong feelings on these benches, we have tried today to exercise the greatest possible restraint. We do not want disunity in the nation on this great issue. I hope that it will be possible to preserve unity.
4.22 p.m.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: The House and the country will note the temper of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition today. I do not think that it would be presumptuous of me to say that we all observed with satisfaction his decision not to divide the House tonight.
It was impossible, in the earlier part of his speech, not to agree with a good deal of what the right hon. Gentleman said, and I could not avoid casting back in my mind some months and years, when his statements did not achieve the same unanimous feeling as they achieved this afternoon. As his speech progressed, however, I found myself in increasing difficulty in following him.
The right hon. Gentleman said, in particular, that we must not put ourselves into a position in which we cannot morally oppose an intervention in any particular country, within the Soviet empire by an action we may take elsewhere in future. As I have not myself taken quite
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the same ideological and idealistic attitude about Soviet Russia's intervention in Hungary as have right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, I can reserve my position in another part of the world in good faith. [HON. MEMBERS: "Suez."] I will come to that.
The right hon. Gentleman said that he would prefer a United Nations force to an American force on the Syrian frontier. Before I sit down I think I can come to some extent to a position of agreement with him in that. He went on to say that the United States' intervention in the Lebanon would effectively consolidate the Arab bloc and that there was a danger that if Her Majesty's Government were to intervene in Jordan or Iraq, some hostile consolidation would take place against us. Yet nothing was more remarkable, in those days of swift intervention in Suez, than the difference in attitude of the Arab States. There was by no means a unite Arab opposition to what the Government of Sir Anthony Eden did at that time.
When the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that in attempting, by intervention in Jordan or Iraq, to set up Governments friendly to the West we would be failing altogether in that objective, I must point out to him that not only in recent history, but in all past history, effective interventions in foreign countries have nearly always, if not always, been followed by Governments friendly to the intervening Power. That is a fact of history. The right hon. Gentleman may not like it, but to say that it will not happen in future is to gainsay all past history and all recent experience.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Ask the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill).
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Finally, one must remark that the crucial part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, about what might be the attitude of the Opposition in the case of intervention in Iraq or Jordan, was couched in the most careful terms. The right hon. Gentleman safeguarded the attitude of himself and his party as to what might transpire.
We have arrived at an almost desperately serious situation in the Middle East and the great question is whether we can let matters stand as they are. On the

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whole, the Opposition seem to appear to wish it so. They do not want to see either this country or the United States effect any violent change in the pattern of history as it has been developing in the Middle East since the end of the war.
That pattern, briefly, is this: 100 per cent. oil investment in Abadan, an insurrection and a 40 per cent. return by the United Kingdom; the abandonment in 1954 of our strategic hold over the Suez Canal; an attempt to force Jordan into the Bagdad Pact, which resulted immediately in an almost total withdrawal of Britain's economic and military position there; as regards Saudi-Arabia, an entire loss, so far as we can see it, of the diplomatic position won in the 1914–18 war by means of Allies and friends, whom my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) held in such great regard. Finally we are now witnessing—perhaps one should not use a stronger phrase—the temporary defection of Iraq, the most important ally of all in a vital oil area.
Fortunately—I always feel like apologising to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite for occasionally using an old-fashioned term—the British still hold on to a certain maritime area—Libya, Aden and the Protectorates in the Gulf. But, in the centre of this vast arc, there are seven States, with a total area of 3 million square miles and a population of 60 million, in which progressively, since the end of the war, it has been possible for British residents to be insulted—not only residents but sometimes Foreign Secretaries—for British investments to be expropriated and British embassies to be burned.
Three conflicting forces now range over that vast area, but Britain is no longer one of them. They are international Communism, aggressive nationalism, and, more recently, dollar doctrine and diplomacy, all manoeuvring for position over a vast sub-continent with which, formerly, Great Britain had a very great deal to do. We, and one must add here Western Europe also, have, hitherto at any rate, been remorselessly excluded from this vast area. I heard the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison) yesterday, and I hope that he will develop it in a speech today about the need to reflect
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the new unity of Western Europe in these events in the Middle East. Perhaps I should say that we are excluding ourselves, to some extent, through what I myself regard, and have referred to many times in the House, as an obsession with the questions of Germany and Russia and the politics of the last two wars.
Mr. Hale: I do not want to make any controversial points today, but I admit that the matter is controversial in this sense, that the last announcement we had from America on this subject, to which the noble Lord referred, was the statement of Mr. Foster Dulles made before the Congressional Committee investigating the Eisenhower Middle East policy, that the presence of a single British or French soldier in the Middle East would help to spread international Communism and that an American soldier would prefer to fight alone rather than have a British or a French soldier with him. Is there any intimation at all that that attitude has been altered recently?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman what the thinking of the State Department or any other political entity is. He is quite able to get his facts himself.
I was about to say that, in our postwar endeavours, with certain exceptions, notably in Kenya, Malaya and Cyprus, the bulk of our military and scientific power has not been centred in the area where it really matters, namely, this vast sub-continent of the Middle East. On the contrary, it has been nicely tucked away in Europe, locked inside the rigid frame of N.A.T.O. and largely isolated from these flaring insurrections in an important fulcrum of the world.
Can we let matters continue as they are? Hon. Gentlemen opposite say, and this was clear from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, that they would compromise with Arab nationalism. This is their land, they say. This is their oil. Why should they not do with it what they want? What are we, the European industrial, capitalist powers any longer doing in that part of the world? Cannot we simply be traders, purchasers and sellers and let them control the sources of their production, the system of their Government and everything else in the land that they have to dwell in?
Mr. E. Shinwell: Does not the noble Lord believe in landlordism?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I feel like paraphrasing the words of Humpty Dumpty, "It depends who is the landlord".
Hon. Members say that the people of the Middle East must sell their oil; otherwise they cannot live. But must they do so? It depends who is in control. Democracy run riot in the Middle East, before it is established, might produce people in control who would have no interest in raising and selling the oil. A word or two on the wireless at seven o'clock two mornings ago sent the Bagdad mob raging into the streets. Are they interested in raising and selling the oil and delivering so many million barrels a year? Are unchained, wild men such as are now running through the streets of Bagdad really devoted to the maintenance of a higher civilisation? The whole history of the world shows that civilisation has cracked, fallen and lain in ruins because of the way in which control over a country was given to or seized by the people too soon.
Do we suppose for one instant that we can live in this country if we do not control the sources of the raw materials which come to us today? Can we maintain our high state of Western civilisation? Has the Welfare State any meaning for anybody if we do not have the oil with which to serve it? What chance is there of maintaining the oil supplies if we allow the Bagdad mob to let the desert rule again over the source of production?
It must be the duty of any Government in this country, of whatever political persuasion, to defend the standard of living of our people. That defence, in the last resort, means resolutely seizing the sources of that Standard of living from those who might despoil it. [Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen cannot depart from it. Those are the realistic facts of the world. Whatever the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) may say, he cannot controvert that duty of Government resolutely to seize from those who would despoil it the sources of the standard of living of our country.
Mr. Harold Davies: I am obliged to the noble Lord for making himself so clear. Will he allow me to intervene
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for a moment, please? I am grateful that the noble Lord has now expounded one of the strangest doctrines that ever a democracy could expound. This doctrine now would imply that Russia has exactly the same right to move into middle Europe or anywhere else in the world to seize oil supplies or uranium for herself. Will the noble Lord now say that we are to seize uranium sources as well?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Russia is not interested in the Gulf oil, fundamentally not interested in it for the maintenance of the standard of living of her people. If she had been she would have declared her political and diplomatic policy for that area long since. The fact is that she has no desire at the present moment to intervene in that part of the world.
I believe that that is the prime duty of the Government in the last resort, and if they do not do it, trouble, insurrection, violence and spoliation will spread from the centre of the Arabian Peninsula to every peripheral and maritime spot that we now hold. We British will be excluded not only from the Arabian subcontinent, but, in time, from the whole of Asia and Africa. Where shall we be then? We shall be left harbouring the hydrogen bomb and a modern system of weapons, living a fully mechanised life with a twenty-first century standard of civilisation, but from one moment to the next, without any feeling of security about the vital sources of our raw materials.
I now want to say something about the American intervention in the Lebanon. Here I am to some extent in sympathy with what was said by the Leader of the Opposition. The American landing in the Lebanon provides us with another cogent reason for intervention. I would remind the House that on 13th February, 1957, speaking in the defence debate, I said:
"I have reason for saying—I cannot reveal the name of the person who has apprised me of this—that if the Eisenhower doctrine gets on the march, up through Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia and towards Iraq, it is practically certain … that attempts will be made to communise Persia and possibly Iraq as well. I do not believe that the Russians are willing to tolerate the menace of the atomic power of the United States being put closely in proximity with them in that part of the world.
For generations, the British and French have held moderate and stabilised positions in the

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Middle East. We have never been a menace to Russia except for that short period at the time of the Crimean War. I am certain that even Communist Russia today would agree that the presence of Britain and France in the Middle East … was not fundamentally a menace to their position. We and the French must do our very utmost to assert our authority in the Middle East in order to keep the United States and Russia apart"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th February, 1957; Vol. 564, c. 1368.]
That was in February last year. Six months later I found myself on a short visit to Russia, and in the Kremlin those who were good enough to receive me and explain matters to me endorsed that statement. They said in specific terms that it seemed to them that the advancing tide of American atomic power across the world was explainable only in terms of the ultimate annihilation of the Soviet Union. Nothing could convince them to the contrary.
I put to them the question whether it was not more satisfactory, fundamentally, to have in the Middle East moderate forces like ourselves and the French, and possibly one day the Germans—for we cannot tell in what friendly association we may be going to work with the Germans in future—rather than the military and air power of the United States, and they agreed that that would be more satisfactory. If they had not felt that I am sure that Russia would have done her very best to move much more effectively than she did at the beginning of this century and between the wars in order to drive us out of those positions in the Middle East. But she never showed a fundamental hostility to our presence there then, and she would not do so today.
Therefore, I do not believe that the course which we may be going to take in Jordan, Iraq or the Persian Gulf—a course which I hope we shall take; and I say that unequivocally—will promote the deadly dangers of a Third World War. I am glad that the Americans have gone to Beirut and nowhere else—
Mr. Sydney Silverman: Nowhere else yet.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: —because there is a certain frontier—a certain moderate position detached from the complex of the Soviet Union—from which it will be very difficult for them
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to proceed further. Acting in the most friendly concert with the United States, I hope that we shall make this view apparent to them, in order to dissuade them from further enterprises across the Arabian peninsula.
In Europe we have a tremendous concourse of neutral States—a kind of cordon sanitaire—on both sides of the Iron Curtain. We stand here in the North Sea, between the United States and Russia, and I believe that in another part of the world, too, we should act in the position of an intermediary, as a force between the great powers of Russia and the United States.
I do not think that any action which Her Majesty's Government may be called upon to take in the Middle East is likely to promote a Third World War. We may be going to see a very large upheaval in the Middle East—a great sorting out of frontiers and a change in the disrelationships of States which themselves have been the cause of clamour and anxiety in the past. One only trusts that the loss of life, either of our own people or those of any of the Middle Eastern countries, will not be too great, and that ultimately—perhaps before long—it may be possible to achieve a settlement.
As I said in a speech in the House not long ago, it is important that Russia, as well as the United States, ourselves and France, should be part of and guarantee that settlement. After whatever movement may be about to take place now, if we can get a final realisation that the Middle East is a vital area in the world for us, for Western Europe and for the United States, we may ultimately see peace reign in that region.
4.47 p.m.
Mr. Desmond Donnelly: The noble Lord the hon. Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) spoke in tones of the greatest possible gloom. He said that the temples of civilisation were crashing. He described how Judgment Day had come, with power being given to people before they were ready to receive responsibility. The whole of his discourse to the House of Commons this afternoon was one of the deepest and most abject pessimism. At the end of the noble Lord's speech I wondered why he did not commit suicide. I can only think that he believes that the nearest thing to committing

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suicide is by his returning to the Conservative Party.
I must declare a small interest in this matter, in that my constituency is to be a major oil port, and the price and supply of oil is now every bit as important to my constituents as the supply of rain or the price of pigs or potatoes. That is why I am glad to have caught your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
I entirely agree that there is no parallel between the American action in entering the Lebanon and the Suez action, but hon. Members opposite must understand quite clearly our reason for apprehension in this matter. Their record does not give us any reason for complacency or confidence. The word "Suez" is a trigger word, not only to our people but to the people of the world, and every kind of action that the British Government now take in the Middle East is to some extent bedevilled by the crass folly and crime of 1956. Hon. Members opposite must therefore understand exactly why, at the very beginning of the announcement made yesterday, we felt very great apprehension about the policy which was being pursued by the Government.
I agree that the legal position is not clear, although I cannot see why, since an attack was not actually being made, it was not possible for the Americans to wait for a few hours in order first to place the matter before the Security Council. To take the law into one's own hands is never a defence, however laudable the object may be. I would say to right hon. Gentlemen on the benches opposite that any further steps in this direction will also be judged with a good deal of caution and apprehension by hon. Members on this side of the House. That is a warning.
But our real apprehension was expressed by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition when he spoke about the dangers—he said it was unwise, but I would go much further and say the extreme dangers—resulting from a possible conflict between the Western world and Arab nationalism arising out of decisions being made at this very moment. That is really the starting point in our consideration of the whole problem. The action of the United States in entering the Lebanon is, in itself, a very limited step. It is a periphery action and, as such, it
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does not necessarily affect events in other parts of the Middle East. It is when a move is made from the Lebanon to Jordan and Iraq that the real danger arises.
From the point of view of Her Majesty's Government, who also have responsibilities in the Persian Gulf, I agree that there is a strong case for us strengthening the garrisons of Kuwait and Bahrain. I think that is probably an essential precaution. But when we move from places where we have treaty rights and go into other countries, not only political problems, but also physical and military problems are involved, and the danger begins to arise. I say to right hon. Members opposite that they will bitterly divide this country if they find themselves involved in military action in Jordan or Iraq. I cannot put it more clearly. It will lead to political feeling on a scale and strength in every way comparable with the events of two years ago; and the consequences, so far as the world is concerned, may be even more far-reaching, more dangerous and more damaging than the consequences of what happened in 1956.
The real charge against this Government is that in the two years which have followed the Suez crisis and the tragic events of that time there has not been any attempt—although we have had that period of two years—to produce any kind of coherent policy; to redress the balance; to retrieve the mistakes. Month after month has passed, with the Foreign Secretary coming to the Dispatch Box and answering Questions. Month after month the right hon. and learned Gentleman, who is the worst Foreign Secretary since Ethelred the Unready, has come to this House lacking any policy for the Middle East. My real charge today against the Government is that they have made no attempt to use the time that was available to them since Suez to evolve any coherent policy. That, in itself, would have been ample justification for a vote of censure on Her Majesty's Government tonight.
What should have been our policy? What should be our policy now—because we have to start at some stage? We have to recognise that in the last four years and since our withdrawal from Suez British policy has been sadly off beam. In those last four years we have failed to pursue the legitimate policy that we should have

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pursued, the policy of national self-interest in the Middle East. What is our national self-interest? First, it is to maintain sufficient political stability to ensure an assured supply of oil; second, to secure that oil at a reasonable price; and third, to see that political stability is retained, so that a world war does not result from the revolutions and turbulences which occur in that area. That should be our guiding aim—supplies of oil from and political stability for the Middle East.
We must recognise that in the years since the war three new factors have entered Middle Eastern politics. The first is the advent of Israel. The second is a remarkable increase in oil revenue and the availability of money in the Middle East on a scale which never existed before. The third is the enormous growth of Arab nationalism. All these problems have to be met, as they pose issues which cannot be avoided.
The question of Israel is outside the context of this discussion and the range of the debate today, but it is very much in the foreground in considering what may happen tomorrow. We cannot forget that. Israel is there. We cannot extinguish, or seek to extinguish, a nation already in existence. Israel is a problem we have to live with, and our task is to try to see that the Israel boundaries and incidents resulting from the present boundaries are adjusted as much as possible. It is a difficult problem to live with, but it is there, and we must decide where we stand. Our interest must be devoted to the limitation of frontier friction so far as lies within our power
The second factor is the vast growth of the oil revenue—my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition touched on this matter. From time to time, when talking to the leaders of a number of our oil companies, I have been shocked at the lack of their forward political policy that many of them reveal. The present situation with oil revenue on a 50–50 basis has nothing sacrosanct about it. It could be 60–40, or 70–30, or 90–10 or even 99–1. There is no reason why it should not change overnight as it is changing at this moment. Our future, so far as the securement of the oil in the Middle East is concerned, is in my view dependent on our being there as hired extractors and marketeers and not as owners of
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that oil. We must put the oil extraction on a new basis. We may not necessarily have to pay more for it, but the fact is that it has to be secured on a new political basis; otherwise it will be a standing catalyst which may end in catastrophe.
The third factor is the vast resurgence of Arab nationalism. Whether we like it or not, Colonel Nasser is identified in the minds of the people living between Cairo and the Persian Gulf as the leader of Arab nationalism. That is a fact, whether we like it or not. Up to now, the policy has been to cut Nasser down to size. What size? That is no policy. Nasser himself may not be invincible, as the Financial Times says this morning. But, as the Financial Times also said this morning, Arab nationalism is invincible. We have to learn to recognise that unless we come to terms, in a modus vivendi, in this area, the lifeblood of British industrial production will be stopped. Thus my fundamental charge against the Government is that in the two years since Suez no attempt has been made to revise the mistakes and fallacies which inherently led us to Suez.
Major H. Legge-Bourke: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to say that in the days of the late Mr. Ernest Bevin I personally, both privately to him and in the form of speeches, suggested that the sooner we tried to encourage and make friends with the Arab League, the better. But he rejected it out of hand.
Mr. Donnelly: I appreciate what the hon. and gallant Gentleman says. But the situation in the days of Mr. Ernest Bevin was very different from now, and we were labouring under other great difficulties at that time as the State of Israel was coming into being.
Sir Robert Boothby: He tried to do it in.
Mr. Donnelly: The hon. Member says he tried to "do it in", but I do not accept his statement. On the other hand, as I was saying, the situation which existed at that time, and also the pressure being placed upon British policy at that time by the American Government of the day, rendered the situation extremely difficult for any British Foreign Secretary.
Mr. S. Silverman: Does my hon. Friend remember that the late Mr. Ernest Bevin got himself into a great deal

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of trouble, and has in his record a number of unfortunate mistakes about Israel, precisely because, at a most unsuitable moment and in a most unsuitable way, he tried to hold the balance unfairly in favour of the Arabs and against Israel?
Mr. Donnelly: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. Perhaps I might go back to my own speech. I was saying that at that time the circumstances were very different. The situation today has gone a lot further.
We have to come to terms with, or we have to be prepared to exterminate Arab nationalism. Hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House have to be prepared to answer the question. The noble Lord says he is prepared to try to stamp out Arab nationalism. I was delighted to hear the noble Lord speaking, as there has not been a political figure with courage to equal his since the days of the intrepid King Canute. We have to recognise that some of the leaders of Arab nationalism may not be people who appeal to us in this country. At the same time, there are other people who are of a younger generation and who ultimately may hold power in the Arab States. Those younger people are also nationalists. Unless we can offer them some kind of life or society which will appeal to them, they will look to other countries to provide it.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Nonsense.
Mr. Donnelly: It is not nonsense, it is fact.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: What does it mean?
Mr. Donnelly: I will tell the noble Lord more precisely. These people are not Communists; they are asking for a kind of simplified welfare state, improved conditions in which they can develop their agricultural resources, and for guidance and assistance. Much of the work that has been done by the British Middle East development services in helping these people has been exactly along the right lines. We shall get nowhere with these people, nor get their co-operation, if we fly in the face of their social and national aspirations.
However much the noble Lord does not like the inevitability of history, and this is it, the fact is that these people intend to run their own country. They
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also have industrial raw material essential to our industrial production. Unless we are prepared to come to terms with them about how we are to secure our oil we shall suffer very seriously in our economic life, quite apart from the great political turbulence which will arise.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: In spite of it.
Mr. Donnelly: No, because of it. The plain fact is that in the decision which has been taken by the United States a very unwise step has been taken, of which, none of us can foresee the consequences. Some of us heard President Eisenhower's statement on the radio this morning in which he compared the decision to the circumstances which secured the setting up of N.A.T.O. following the Communist coup d'état in Czechoslovakia. He spoke of American dedication to the idea of saving the Middle East from Communism. I do not know what information he bases himself upon, but the statement this morning was the statement either of a fool or a cynic. Frankly, I would rather it was of a cynic, for the sake of the Western world.
Mr. Cyril Osborne: That is an unwise thing to say.
Mr. Donnelly: It is not unwise. It is perfectly wise. I wish the President was as wise.
We have made substantial strides in the years following the war in trying to come to terms with the new nationalisms of the under-developed areas. There are nearly always two fatal points of decline in the history of great empires. It was so with Greece and with Rome. One is when the people think they have achieved economic security and rest on their oars, while the world passes them by. The other is when political conflict between the perimeter and the centre reaches breaking point, and the empire fragments. We have not solved the first problem but on the second we had begun to show that we could cheat history. We had begun to come to terms with the new social forces. The events of the last two years in the Middle East have done more to damage the position of Britain in the eyes of those who are of those social forces than all the events of the last thirty or forty years.
I see the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs on the Government Front Bench. I want to give a clear warning to him. Some of us on these benches may in no

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circumstances support military intervention which goes beyond the present situation. If it goes further this Government may divide this country and it may find itself in a political conflict internally from which it will not be able to find a way out. The British Labour Party stands by the rights of self-determination of peoples and we have no intention of surrendering those rights in these circumstances now.
5.6 p.m.
Sir Robert Boothby: I would advise the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly) to keep the name of Mr. Ernest Bevin out of these particular debates. The right hon. Gentleman was in many respects quite a good Foreign Secretary, but the less said about his Middle East policy the better. It was the most shameful abnegation of responsibility that this country has ever known. Having founded a national home for the Jews, the right hon. Gentleman then left them to fight for it at odds of twelve to one. Only their own heroism saved them. I think that that should be on the record.
After the admirable speeches we have heard from the Foreign Secretary and the Leader of the Opposition we ought to try to keep the tone of the debate cool and calm, and I shall try to do so in the very few minutes during which I shall address the House. I have said before, and would like to repeat, that the West is conducting a global struggle—I use the word "struggle" deliberately—not a war, against the forces of world Communism. We have, alas, no central organisations of political decision to direct our political policies upon a global scale. We have in consequence no common policy; and N.A.T.O. has no policy. N.A.T.O. is indeed almost in disruption.
I say very very seriously that unless the Western democracies can get together, and work together, better than they have done in the last ten years, we shall lose this struggle against the forces of Communism. We shall simply collapse; we shall break into pieces. We must get together. The Communists are together. They are very closely together. They may not be all very willingly together, but the fact remains that China, Russia and the satellite countries, with the exception of Yugoslavia, are solid about policy. They discuss, decide and carry out
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policies together. That is the measure of what we are fighting against. And they comprise half the world. Whereas we go wobbling along, squabbling among ourselves and agreeing about nothing at all. How do we think we can survive in this struggle unless we can devise not only common policies, but the instruments with which to carry them out, which do not exist at present?
I come to the question of Anglo-American co-operation. The present situation in the Middle East derives from the fact that, for the last five or six years, there has been no Anglo-American co-operation at all. On 24th July, 1956, I said in this House that the Western world was not united, although we all proclaimed almost incessantly that it was. That is absolutely true. I see sitting opposite my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman). He will remember January, 1956, when we found ourselves in Washington—
Mr. Ellis Smith: Is he the hon. Member's hon. Friend?
Sir R. Boothby: Yes, he is, and I hope that he always will be. He is, indeed.
We found ourselves in Washington, as journalists. There was a great conference going on, particularly about Middle Eastern policy.
Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: The declaration of Washington.
Sir R. Boothby: Yes, exactly—between Sir Anthony Eden and President Eisenhower. At the end of it, they issued the most appalling communiqué, which I described at the time as a narcotic, though I would use an even harsher word now if I could do so and still keep within the bounds of Parliamentary language. The fact was that they pretended that they had reached some kind of agreement on the Middle East, whereas everyone, including myself, the hon. Member for Coventry, East—and Mr. Randolph Churchill, who was there at the time—knew they had not in fact reached agreement on any point whatsoever.
All they said, at the end of the communiqué, was that we were struggling for freedom and liberty and the ultimate hopes of mankind; and, at the very end, they prayed that, with God's help, we

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might achieve that freedom and humanity for the peoples of the Middle East, and for the peoples of the world as a whole. I remember Mr. Randolph Churchill saying subsequently to a scandalised television audience in Canada, "Why drag God into it?" I think that there was a great deal to be said for that point of view—why, indeed?
That is the sort of thing that, fortunately, the present Prime Minister has avoided; those narcotic communiqués saying that agreement has been reached, when, in fact, no agreement of any kind has been reached. They did not even agree about the Tripartite Declaration which was, in itself, almost the direct cause of the subsequent Suez crisis.
I want to say only one word about the immediate situation. I think that the intervention of the United States in the Lebanon at this moment was inevitable and necessary. I think that it is frightfully important, however, that they keep within the Charter of the United Nations—as they have done, and have taken care to do—and to report continuously to the United Nations Organisation. I do not want to say any more, because the situation there is very critical—so let it go at that.
On the general question of further intervention in the Middle East, I should like to quote to the House, if I may, a rather pregnant passage from a letter which Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir John Slessor—with whom I do not always agree—wrote some time ago about the principles upon which we should base intervention. It is so good that I think that it might as well go on the record. Sir John Slessor wrote:
"If we have in future to use force to protect our vital interests, certain conditions must be observed. Our reasons must be unmistakably valid and clear; the object of the specific military action undertaken must be commensurate with its wider political and strategic implications; the timing must be right; our methods must be swift and effective; and we must be sure in advance that the United States and the Commonwealth will not actively oppose us."
To that I would add that we must be sure that the United States and the Commonwealth will actively support us. Sir John Slessor wrote that letter in relation to the Suez crisis; but I think that it contains very good principles which we should apply in all these matters.
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I agree with those who have so far spoken in this debate that we should think long, and very seriously, before we attempt to intervene militarily either in Jordan or in Iraq. On the other hand, I think that it is essential that we should take steps—I imagine that we have already done so, but we should proclaim that we have done so—to protect the Protectorates, for which we are directly responsible, with adequate force now.
For example there is Kuwait, upon which, after all, we depend very largely for our industrial existence. The amount of oil that we get from Kuwait is absolutely fantastic; and Kuwait can easily he defended. The nearest town in Iraq is about 300 miles away. A brigade could protect it absolutely. We should, therefore, proclaim now—now—that we intend to protect Kuwait, and no more nonsense about it—and Aden, too. We should take that step at once, and make it perfectly clear that we will look after all the Protectorates in the Persian Gulf.
Having dealt with the situation today, I want to conclude by one reference—which brings me back to when I started—to the day after tomorrow. The House has to face the fact that the State of Israel exists. So long as the Arabs think that they can throw the Israelis into the sea—and a lot of them think that one day they will—I believe that it will be a constant, continuous sore; and a source of trouble in the Middle East, fraught with difficulty and danger.
When I was in Israel the other day, Mr. Ben-Gurion said to me, "In the final resort, we have either to fight or to swim—and we are not going to swim." They are not going to swim; and I say that, if we want ultimately to restore genuine stability of any kind in the Middle East, the United States and ourselves will have to give an unequivocal guarantee for the security of Israel. That is frightfully important. Until we do that, the Arabs will cherish these hopes of destroying her.
I am not now arguing the Zionist case, although I have been a Zionist all my life. I do not argue about what has happened in the past; but Israel is there—it exists. The Israelis are tough, resilient, doing a magnificent job—building a nation. They feel that life has a purpose. One has only to go there to be deeply impressed by what they have

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done. They will not go down without fighting. They will not be "done in"; but as long as the Arabs think they can "do them in" it will be a constant source of unrest.
This is my last word—
Major H. Legge-Bourke: I do not suppose that my hon. Friend and I will ever agree on Zionism, but would not he agree that, at the present moment, it would be highly beneficial to everybody concerned and, in particular to world peace, if Israel would not do anything independently without prior consultation with all those most likely to be helpful to her?
Sir R. Boothby: I think that that is very true; and I do not believe that there is the slightest indication that Israel intends to take any action without prior consultation. Certainly, in this great crisis that has been going on in the Middle East for some time—for, after all, the Lebanon is not far from Israel; the Lebanon border was only fifteen miles from me the other day when I was at Haifa, and they had had all this trouble for five or six weeks, and now this fresh trouble—the Israelis have done nothing except maintain a stoical courage, amounting almost to indifference to what is going on. They are strong, and they will fight if they must; but we will never get peace in the Middle East until we and the United States come out absolutely unequivocally and say, "An attack on Israel is an attack on us."
5.18 p.m.
Mr. George Wigg: Like the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby), I would like to count myself as a friend of the State of Israel, and a friend, if I may say so, when it was not always as popular as it is today. But I think that those of us who are friends of Israel need, from time to time, to give a word of advice to the Israeli people. It applies to men as to nations, that if they want to survive they have to come to terms with life as they find it, and I believe that the Israelis during the last year or two have not always been wise, either in what their statesmen have said or in their actions.
I quite agree that the State of Israel ought to be guaranteed by international action but, underneath, there is an even
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more fundamental problem that has its impact in the Lebanon area. What is to happen to the thousands, and the hundreds of thousands of refugees who are left rotting in camps all over the Middle East without hope for the present and without hope for the future?
Let us turn to the Lebanon. I have heard hon. Friends of mine say, "Of course, the Lebanon is a very prosperous country". It is—in some parts. On the road out from the centre of Lebanon to the airport there are plush hotels, beautiful gardens and every sign of ostentatious wealth. But go the other way towards the Lebanon, go to the Bidonville, go to the refugee camps of the 100,000 Arabs who live in and around Beirut and who have been kept there as an act of deliberate policy by the Lebanese Government in order to provide a source of cheap labour. They have not been given Lebanese nationality for that would upset the balance between Muslim and Christian.
Mr. Richard Body: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that there are now only some 10,000 in the camps outside Beirut and that the Lebanese Government are doing their utmost to reduce that number every day?
Mr. Wigg: If the hon. Gentleman is right in saying that there are only 10,000 of these Arab refugees, I am delighted to hear it. I should have thought that the number was nearer 100,000. I was there myself a couple of years ago and I saw more than 10,000 refugees.
It is a fact that those people are denied permission to work so as to provide the source of labour for the black market. Whether the number be 10,000 or 100,000 it is nevertheless true that all over the Middle East this problem of the resettlement of the refugees goes right to the heart of the problem of the stability and the creation of conditions in which Israel can survive. I hope very much that the hon. Gentleman opposite, who has much more influence with the Israeli Government than I have, will do what he can to get that Government to treat their Arab minority fairly.
I could give the House some examples of cases of recent origin which have been brought to my notice, and which do not lead me to believe that this always happens. As I say, I should be glad if

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the hon. Gentleman would use his influence in the direction of better treatment for Arabs in Israel because, if he did so, not only would he be serving the interest of humanity but he would also be serving the long-term interest of Israel herself. If there is no justice and no mercy for the defeated Arab minority there will be no settlement.
We should remember that we cannot speak of the Arabs, as the noble Lord spoke of them this afternoon, in scathing, contemptuous terms, as a source of cheap labour and as beings just removed from the ape world. They are a proud people with a great civilisation behind them. They are conscious of their history and of their civilisation. Many may think that Arab favour can be bought by giving them a higher standard of life. They do not want it. They are not all that respectful of the Western way of life. They are heirs to a great culture and tradition. They do not want the chromium-plated plush hotels. What they want is the opportunity to live out their lives in the way they choose. That, after all, is a basic human right.
I greatly regret the situation in which we find ourselves both in the Lebanon and in Iraq. I spent many years in Iraq, albeit in a very humble capacity. I was introduced to the subject of Islam through the medium of a great woman, Miss Gertrude Bell. She often talked to me about the impact of Western civilisation upon the Arab peoples, and spoke in contemptuous terms of Europeans who came to Bagdad in a mood of Western superiority. She thought that in the long run, if we put our money on the Alwiyah trash, we should be backing a loser. Unfortunately, what Miss Bell and those who thought like her feared has come to pass.
What is the crisis in which we find ourselves? It is a crisis of reality, and this House of Commons cannot escape that reality. No amount of words or subterfuge can save us from the stark reality which faces the Western world in the Middle East. I was astonished to hear the Foreign Secretary say that, of course, one kind of coup which has been successfully brought off in Iraq is a permanent part of our life. If that is so, and if we are to expect, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman indicated, that in State after State this
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kind of thing could happen and that this is the sort of threat that faces us, then the outlook is black indeed.
My mind goes back again to the reality, as I see it, of our Defence debates because the last two Defence White Papers, with the support of both Front Benches, specifically ruled out by the action of the House of Commons just that kind of thing. At a cost of some £10,000 million we have hydrogen bombs, atom bombs, V-bombers and Uncle Tom Cobley and all, and yet tonight the hon. Gentleman opposite says, "Let us put a brigade into Kuwait."
Where is the brigade and how do we get it there? At the moment we have 23 major units in Cyprus. Supposing we were mad enough to talk about going into Jordan and Iraq, can any hon. Gentleman tell me how we should get our troops there? We have some 1,000 Royal Air Force personnel in Habbaniyah, including some 250 or 300 women and children. How many aircraft have we there? There is not a single British aircraft available on the Habbaniyah airfield but there is a very considerable number of Iraqi aircraft.
I do not possess anything like the intelligence—I am talking about the political intelligence—of the Foreign Secretary, but I should have thought that it was fairly obvious that the Iraqi Air Force must have joined the revolt because, if it had not, the rebels would not still be using the radio station.
Sir R. Boothby: It is physically possible to fly to Kuwait. There is an aerodrome there, and there is nothing to stop us flying there.
Mr. Wigg: Does the hon. Gentleman think that we should be allowed to fly over Iraqi territory without interference?
Just before the Whitsun Recess I raised on the Adjournment the subject of the Royal Air Force Conference, Prospect II. We were then told that it was the Government's intention to introduce into Aden the Gnat fighter because the Venom had had its day. Of course, we have not got any Gnats at the present time. What the Under-Secretary of State for Air did not tell us at that time—as I interrupted to point out, and he did not contradict what I said—was that the reason why we were talking about

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using the Gnat was because it was too costly to extend the runway in Aden and that therefore we could not use the Hunter.
That was the kind of ramshackle policy that was revealed at Suez. I took the same line then as I take now. I did not want to oppose the object; I was concerned about the means. On that occasion I heard the cheers on both sides of the House, as I have heard them in the last few days in support of this action, and I had an uncontrollable desire to be sick because there was not a single swept-wing fighter in the Middle East. We needed transport aircraft and tank landing ships, as the dispatches of the Commander-in-Chief showed. It was the absence of these things which brought us to a standstill. The operation took too long to mount. It took six weeks.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: No.
Mr. Wigg: If the hon. Gentleman doubts that, let him read General Keightley's dispatches.
Sir R. Boothby: We should have left it to the Israelis.
Mr. Wigg: The hon. Gentleman may be right. He says that we should leave it to the Israelis. He ought to know that that is a slightly irresponsible intervention to make. I have been diverted from what I wanted to say, but I do not mind. I will meet the hon. Gentleman on that point. Does he think that the intervention in the Lebanon by the Americans or leaving it to the Israelis would lead to stability in the Middle East?
Sir R. Boothby: I said that we should have left Suez to the Israelis. I did not say that we should now leave it to them. We should have left Suez to them, for in another three days they would have done all that we wanted to do.
Mr. Wigg: That always seems to me to be a rather profitless sort of argument. The point is that we did not leave it to the Israelis. If we did not leave it to the Israelis, there is no point in making the intervention, because it rather appears that we would leave the present situation to the Israelis. That is irresponsible.
If at present we lack the means to
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go into Jordan, I agree that what we ought to do—and the hon. Gentleman has himself suggested it—is to take effective steps to reinforce our position in the Middle East, and that means reinforcements in Aden and Kenya. It does not merely mean alerting the 19th Brigade in Colchester. But troops have to eat. They have to have ammunition and they need modern equipment, which they do not have at present.
We have to take into account the possibility that the Suez Canal may be closed against us. It may be that these reinforcements will have to be taken round the Cape. They have to be positioned. Where will they be positioned? What the Government cannot afford to do, as they have been doing over the last five or six years, is to wait for an emergency and then look round for the means to deal with it. Sooner or later, our bluff is bound to be called. I have always thought that one of the basic principles of our defence policy and foreign policy should be to secure the viability of the sterling area. Any policy by either Front Bench to carry that principle into effect has my wholehearted support.
I think that the Government are open to very grave criticism indeed. First, their Intelligence Service did not warn them of what was likely to happen. It seems to me incredible, in view of the amount of money that is spent on the Intelligence Service, that we knew absolutely nothing of what was going to happen. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nor did the King."] The King answers for himself, poor man, if he is still alive. My criticism does not lie with the Iraq Government, but with the Government Front Bench. They spend vast sums of public money on the Intelligence Service in order to build up our defences and to meet the kind of situation that has arisen. My first criticism is that they do not know what is going to happen, and, secondly, when it does happen, they have to improvise to deal with it.
This is not the end of the story. So far, the worst has not happened. I think that if we continue to live in a dream world of depending upon American action or trailing behind American action when it is taken and then pretending that that was what we would do all the time, sooner or later we shall find ourselves in a first class mess. I have said this before and I repeat it now. It seems to

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me that the inevitable consequence of the Government's foreign policy and defence policy is at best diplomatic defeat and at worst military defeat. That can easily happen.
This is the line that I was following when the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East skilfully interrupted. It is all very well for the Sixth Fleet to steam up to within two miles of the Khaldi Beach in Beirut and put 5,000 troops ashore to be greeted by icecream carts and a bonanza kind of atmosphere. The lines of communication are just two miles. If at any time the going gets a bit hot, all that the landing craft have to do is to go back to the ships again and weigh anchor, and before sunset they will be out of sight.
We may go into Lebanon or Jordan, but how do we get out? Have we ever had any undertaking that the American Government would be as facile in their undertakings to us as we have been to them? If as a result of American intervention in Lebanon we get caught up in difficulties in Bahrein, Kuwait and Aden, is there any guarantee that the American Government will stand by us, either by giving us dollar oil for sterling or by direct military support? In the negotiations which have been carried on both before the Lebanon intervention and since, have the Government asked the American Government for any assurances that, as a result of, to be polite, a joint action, Britain would be supported if difficulties should arise? If the Government have given support or have not objected to the American action, the minimum requirement that the British Government should demand is that the Americans should underwrite us with their full economic and military strength. We cannot afford to be left out on the limb.
This is partly the trouble. We are members of N.A.T.O. and the Bagdad Pact, and, as a consequence, we can lock for American support. There are, however, vast areas of the world where the American record vis-à-vis ourselves has not been too good. I remember the visits of Mr. George McGhee to the Middle East in 1951. He left a trail of ruins from Britain's point of view. I have always believed that what happened in Persia was a result of the direct action of Mr. George McGhee and the State
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Department. I am not so suspicious as to think that General Eisenhower necessarily is a party to the present situation. But remembering the difficulties that Britain found herself in which followed Mr. McGhee's visits in 1951—
Mr. Shinwell: We must be accurate in this matter, because it has a bearing on what occurred at Abadan. Mr. McGhee indulged in his manœuvres and peregrinations before the Abadan affair.
Mr. Wigg: My right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) was Foreign Secretary in 1951. I will not argue about the year, but it is my recollection that the McGhee visit took place in 1951. If I am wrong about that, I am sorry; but it does not detract from my argument.
Sir R. Boothby: It was before Abadan, anyway.
Mr. Wigg: Yes, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham South was Foreign Secretary. In any case, that does not detract from my argument.
I am concerned to get an assurance from the Government that they have taken this fact into account, and, if they can, I should like them to give the House an assurance that they are not unmindful of the need for American backing should we find ourselves in difficulties similar to those which occurred after Suez.
I agree with the view expressed by other hon. Members that sooner or later we must come to terms with Arab nationalism. That is essential, and I agree, as I have already said, that that means coming to an understanding about Israel. It also means coming to an understanding about North Africa, because we have to consider the Arab problem as a whole, and we shall make a mistake if we look at it only in terms of nationalism.
For the whole of this century, Islam has found itself in a ferment. It is partly influenced by what is called progress and what Islam would call Western materialism, but it is a crisis of a way of life. We have to help to enable them to come to terms with us and us with them. The basis of it should not necessarily be a policy of repression or a policy of more economic aid. Those things, in their way, play their part, but if we want to come to terms with the Arabs, first we have to learn to respect them. They

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are men who are conscious of their manhood and conscious of their past. They cannot be bought and they cannot be bullied.
Sir R. Boothby: They cannot be bought?
Mr. Wigg: It is no good the hon. Member sneering.
Sir R. Boothby: I was not sneering. I was merely asking a question.
Mr. Wigg: I know about the corruption in the Middle East, but there are forces at work, forces which are finding their expression in F.L.N., Neo Destour and Istiqlal and similar movements.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Should we give way?
Mr. Wigg: No, I do not say that we should give way, but I ask for a policy of respect. Such a policy might result in permanent peace and the opening of a new chapter not only for them but for us.
5.40 p.m.
Mr. Antony Head: I know how popular the intervention of a Privy Councillor is among back benchers, and I must crave their indulgence, even though I have spoken only once in the last eighteen months. I also claim their indulgence on the ground that this is the first opportunity I have had of following the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg).
As my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary and the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said, the central theme of the debate is the dispatch of marines by the United States to the Lebanon, and the agreement of Her Majesty's Government to that course of action.
I listened with great care, attention and interest to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. He stated very lucidly his various objections to the course which was being adopted and which Her Majesty's Government are supporting. However, neither he nor any other hon. Members opposite has yet paid the same amount of attention to the alternative course, and to what might happen if such a course were adopted.
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I cannot escape the conclusion that if hon. Members opposite do not like the course which has been adopted, there is no alternative but to refer the matter to the United Nations and to leave it at that. The almost inescapable consequences of that course have not so far received sufficient attention. We have every right to think that in such circumstances there would be a debate in the United Nations, followed by some form of resolution. It is only fair to expect that observers, and possibly a United Nations force, would be sent, perhaps to the Lebanon, perhaps elsewhere.
Frankly, it is completely unrealistic, with the knowledge at our disposal, to think that those forces could either ensure that there was no continued infiltration across the Lebanese-Syrian border, or that they could effectively carry out duties which would ensure that exterior infiltration did not continue, not only in the Lebanon, but, following the situation in Iraq, in countries like Jordan as well.
Were such a course adopted, it would be followed by considerable jubilation in both Cairo and Moscow, while there would be very great despair in Jordan and the Lebanon. Not only that, but the ripples would reach far away into Asia and South-East Asia and those who have allied their policies and sympathies with the West would despair of any help from the West, knowing that the West had turned down an appeal for help from the Lebanon. Those countries would come to the conclusion that the tide was too strong for them and gradually, one by one, our friends in the Middle East and in South-East Asia and Asia would slowly but surely be drawn into the Communist orbit.
I know that many hon. Members are reluctant to use force in any circumstances, and that there are others who hesitate to do so, fearing the risk of war. However, the history of the last twelve years and of the years before the last war show that reluctance to use force brings about a series of increasingly grave situations, until the use of force is ultimately inescapable, in an atmosphere of far greater danger and tension than before, when the likelihood and risk of war much increased.
Mr. John Paton: Would the right hon. Gentleman apply

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that argument both ways? Is the use of force in such circumstances justified only when it is used by the West?
Mr. HeadNot at all. However, there has never been a single case where that kind of propaganda, infiltration and subversion in countries aspiring to nationhood has been backed by the West. This has been a one-way traffic in subversion which, because of the inaction by the West, leads young countries into the Communist orbit.
The hon. Member for Dudley seemed to be veering towards a defence debate and I do not intend to do that, but, apart from him, hon. Members have tended to focus the attention of the House almost exclusively on the events of the last few days and the recent happenings in Iraq. In a discussion of this kind, it is not unprofitable to view the situation in Iraq as one incident in the chain of events since 1946.
The stark fact confronts us that in one way or another—and I am not saying that Iraq is a single straightforward case—young countries aspiring to independence and nationhood have disappeared one by one within the Communist fold. That process has been happening over a period of twelve years, during which time the expansion of Communist influence has developed to a degree which is unique in the history of the world in so short a time.
In considering the Iraq situation, we cannot escape some consideration of why that should have been so and how far and how widely it is likely to continue, since another ten or twelve years at the present rate will bring about the virtual eclipse of the West. If hon. Members think that that is far-fetched, I remind them of what Stalin said when he remarked that the road to victory for Communism over the West lay in a revolutionary alliance with the liberation movements of dependent territories.
That was said by Stalin, propounded by Lenin and approved by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan). It is as true now as when it was first propounded.
Mr. Aneurin Bevan: The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale has not approved it. He has merely agreed that it was said, but it is highly irrelevant.
Mr. Head: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I was not trying to ally him with Moscow.
It is an extremely clear statement of policy, as clear as anything which Hitler said in "Mein Kampf." The last twelve years have been notable more for the success of the policy than for any increased likelihood of atomic war. The problem which confronts us for the next twelve years lies largely in whether the trend of the last twelve is to be continued.
Why has this astonishing success continued so widely and so rapidly? It is true that Soviet Russia has planned and worked for it and has no problems of alliances. It is monolithic and does not have to consider public opinion. It is true that the Russians have provided colleges to which people from Indonesia, the Middle East, Sudan and Africa are sent for five years to learn subversion, agitation and propaganda. It is true that wherever one may go one can find large trade missions from Moscow, large embassies, large legations and large numbers of Russians, and Moscow wooing, subverting, propaganding and offering.
When we look at the other side, what do we see?—the West, as I see it, concentrating on N.A.T.O., uniting in N.A.T.O., big conferences at N.A.T.O., the statesmen and leaders of the West talking about the defence of Europe, atomic weapons, summit talks, and so forth—a kind of hypnotic concentration on the front door of defence, which is Europe, while the back door and the scullery window are disregarded.
In providing the non-military weapons for the cold war, where is the unity of N.A.T.O.? In the policy of the cold war where is the unity of N.A.T.O.? The disarray of policy in the Middle East and in South-East Asia has been a feature of the last twelve years. I think that the historian of fifty years ahead, looking back on these twelve years, will think almost inexplicable the failure of the West to realise that some collective policy for defence—not only defence by military means, but all the other forms—has never been evolved outside Europe.
That, I think, is perhaps a not unfair summary of the past. But what of the future of Iraq, the Middle East and

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South-East Asia? I personally do not despair, provided that the West can, even at this late stage, make a new start. So far as I know, the situation today—whatever its demerits in the eyes of many hon. Members opposite—is almost the first occasion on which, in policy outside Europe, the United States and ourselves are acting in complete unison. That in itself is something which is very important.
However, it is not enough just to unite in this one matter. Our hope for the future lies in two things: first, unity of policy for the West and particularly between this country and the United States; and, secondly, that policy must be imaginative and up to date. To say one word about unity of policy with the United States, I think that the strength that that gives is of immense importance in these areas where we have young countries aspiring to nationhood and who require economic growth and sufficient strength to look after themselves. Up to now I do not believe that this country alone has ever been strong enough to constitute an alternative sponsor nation to that development in comparison with Soviet Russia. I think that with the United States we do constitute a force which is an alternative godfather, if I may use that word, to a backward nation growing up.
After all, these countries have to be given economic and military aid. They have turned to Russia because the United States has never been with us in policy, and we have been economically and militarily at full stretch and in a relatively weaker position than we were before the war. But together we constitute an alternative.
As to the policy of the future, I am certain that we have got to accept the aspirations of young nations and, as the Foreign Secretary said, we have, indeed, gone a long way in doing so. But the tragedy today is that none of them knows that we have. Anyone who has read the transcripts of "The Voice of Cairo" would think that we are brutal imperialists who are trying to destroy all aspiring nations. What have they heard of our liberalism in this respect? Practically nothing, because our propaganda services overseas, throughout the Middle East and South-East Asia, are lamentable.
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We have got to adopt such an imaginative policy and we have got to let these countries know it.
That is not the only thing. There is no merit in acting in concert with America in private and telling nobody of it in public. They must know that both of us are united and recognise the young nations and that we are prepared to act to help them, that it is our policy that they should not automatically fall into the Communist orbit. It is that knowledge which I believe would produce a considerable change.
We have many friends in the Middle East and in South-East Asia, but they are worried about our strength and our determination. They have been sitting on the fence and their left legs have been going more and more down one side. But many of these people have no love of Communism. The Muslim does not like Communism, nor does the Mohammedan. With the knowledge that there was a true alternative, I believe that a gradual and marked change might come about.
There is one further qualification concerning our future policy in these areas. We must not only have unity of policy and an imaginative policy. We must have strength. When I say "strength" I mean the right sort of strength. If we were called to the aid of a nation, perfectly legitimately, it would surely be folly to consider employing any form of atomic weapon. I take it further. I believe that it would be madness. Yet what is the trend at the moment? In the United States we find to an increasing degree the integration of very small atomic weapons into conventional forces. I view such a trend with some alarm.
Here in this country we are busily reducing an Army of 400,000 to one of 150,000. I will only say this: I am quite certain that both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary today are glad that their present defence policy as far as the Army is concerned has not been completed. What, I ask, could we have done today with an army of 150,000? Any fears by any hon. Members opposite about the intervention of British troops would have been entirely lulled.
I say this with sincerity. Do not let us be too stiff-necked about this position. If we are to have a policy with the United States, it may well in the future necessitate some form of intervention at

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the request of a nation which has been subverted or infiltrated. Our inability to meet such a call might well be disastrous. I am aware that the Government have adopted a policy. I am equally aware that events may well prove it necessary to change it. All I would say is: do not let the Government be too stiff-necked about going through with this policy. The House and the country will always forgive a man who changes his mind, but to be stiff-necked and obstinate in the face of events and circumstances is something which both the people of this country and history will find it hard to condone.
I see that some hon. Members opposite are getting up hopefully, and they are not far wrong. Perhaps they will be patient for a moment; I have one last thing to say. There are, I am sure, many hon. Members opposite who did not agree with the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. There are many hon. Members whose opinions I respect and who will say, "Peace almost at any price, and certainly no intervention." Let us remember today Austria and Czechoslovakia before the last war. Let me say, although I know it is controversial, that it is my belief that, given four more days at the end of Suez, this would never have happened.
Time and again in the last twelve years we have had proof of how it is possible flagrantly to break international law and, through the twin umbrella of the fear of war and the ineffectiveness of the United Nations, the lawbreakers have got away with it. Let us remember that repeatedly there are reasons, excuses and very good arguments for not acting. Good intentions have so often led to danger. In fact, one might almost say that we are beginning to learn that the road to war can be paved with good intentions.
6.0 p.m.
Mr. J. Grimond: The right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) will have considerably raised the popularity rating of Privy Councillors by what he said, the way he said it and the time he took.
The right hon. Gentleman spoke about the need for a new policy. I wholeheartedly agree with him, but I wonder whether he is prepared to go far enough when it comes to a new policy. The
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right hon. Gentleman went on to talk about Iraq and he talked of rising young nations to whom we and America should stand in the place of godparents. He may be satisfied with what we have done in Iraq, but surely it has led us nowhere. This is one of the tragedies of the present situation. It has not been a matter of lack of money in Iraq, for it has had plenty, nor has it been lack of assistance for it has been given technical assistance by this country. It is a matter of the total failure on our part to understand the forces at work and to appreciate what is going on inside the Arab mind.
Our criticisms of the Government are very like the criticisms of the right hon. Gentleman. The Government have had no policy for the Middle East. What we want to ask the Government this afternoon is whether the intervention in the Lebanon is the beginning of a new policy, or simply another stop-gap move of which the implications have not been thought out and which has no future before it. It could easily be the latter.
Time and time again in the Middle East we have been overtaken by crises. The noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) gave us a resumé of what has happened at Abadan, in Jordan and on the Canal. The noble Lord's remedy is not to give up the disastrous policy that we have been following, but to do it all the harder, to pour in more troops and to attempt to hold the oil wells by force. Most hon. Members will agree that we could not do that even if we wanted to do it. That policy is out. But hon. Members will agree that we must have some policy.
The right hon. Member for Carshalton mentioned Czechoslovakia. I honestly believe that one of the ghosts which has been bedevilling our thinking since the war is the ghost of Munich. There is a lot of bad Tory conscience about Munich, and I do not wonder at it, but bad conscience is a bad counsellor in an entirely changed world.
The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned Suez. I believe that this is a different situation from Suez, but I think that the Government have been hamstrung by Suez. They have to keep on pretending in public that Suez was a success, while every event in the Middle East has shown that they must unscramble

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the whole of the thinking that led to Suez and start from somewhere else.
There must be changes in the Middle East, and the main interest of this country is to ensure that the changes come about peaceably. I believe that Russia and Communism are the main menace and not Arab nationalism. I will go so far as to say that one thing about which we must be absolutely certain is that we do not drive the Arab nationalists into the arms of the Communists. I believe that, in the long run, we have a great deal to gain by a confederation of Arab States. It is folly for us to allow ourselves to be put in the position of seeming to oppose the movement for Arab unity. By doing so, we are not stopping it, but we are giving everyody who is anti-British wonderful propaganda material.
Our other interest is to trade and to get oil by trading. If we are prepared to couple the intervention in the Lebanon with a declaration of policy in the Middle East, I think it possible that good might come of it, but any such declaration of policy will have to be drastic. We shall have to make it clear that we are not in the Lebanon or anywhere else simply to oppose the growing movement for Arab unity, or to bolster up unpopular régimes.
I would ask what the next step is considered to be. Are we to have free elections in the Lebanon—
Mr. S. Silverman: We must take the marines out first.
Mr. Grimond: —and in other places in the Middle East? I hope that we shall make it clear that we accept the new oil agreement with Iraq. I hope that we shall make it clear that we will do our best to set up a development board for the Middle East. Above all, I hope that we shall formulate a policy for the sheikdoms for which we are responsible.
Earlier, the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby) talked about protecting the Protectorates. I agree with him about defending them, but "protecting" is a slightly doubtful phrase. The truth of the matter is that the Protectorates—if by that he means the Gulf sheikdoms—cannot go on in their present form. Although we owe a very clear duty to their rulers and others
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in them who have been supporting us, we also owe a duty to them to make it clear that the internal situation in those sheikdoms has changed and that they must make way faster than they have done to popular feeling within them, and that some form of federation is the solution for them as well as the other Arab States.
Finally, I believe that this country has to face the fact that it is simply in our national interest to come to some sort of arrangement with Colonel Nasser. I do not like him; I dare say no one likes him. I do not say this because I sympathise with his point of view, but I honestly believe that if we can talk to Khrushchev, if we are keen to have a summit meeting with Khrushchev, we cannot draw the line at Colonel Nasser, and to do so when it hurts one's own interest is not only illogical but crazy. There are certain interests that we hold in common with Colonel Nasser. He is interested in the dues from the Suez Canal, and we are interested in getting ships through the Canal. We cannot simply treat our Middle Eastern policy as a personal vendetta against Egypt and its present Government. I see no reason to suppose that if we got rid of Colonel Nasser we should get anyone better.
We must also be clear that we do not disrupt the Commonwealth with this move in the Middle East. We must carry it with us. I hope that the Prime Minister will tell us more about the feelings in the Commonwealth. I do not know whether the move is legally justified or not. I suspect not. I suspect that it must be regarded as an exercise in realpolitik. It would be most unwise to send troops to Iraq or Jordan unless to defend their frontiers against clear aggression or to protect our own nationals.
I believe that this country has the greatest interest in building up the prestige and powers of the United Nations. This is clearly a situation which calls for an international force. We should be very much better off if there were an effective international force in being. But I would also say that an international force is not enough. We must find, in the modern world, some way of bringing about peaceful change. An international force without any means of peaceful change could be a very tyrannous instrument. It is here that United Nations is

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lacking. It is in grave danger of becoming an instrument simply for perpetuating the status quo, and it should be an instrument of change.
I must say one word about Israel. What is the present position about the Tripartite Declaration? I understand from answers to recent Questions that the Government regard it as still being in force. Therefore, it seems to me that if there were a revolution in Jordan and a new Jordan Government, perhaps antipathetic to British interests, called upon us to defend it against an incursion by the Israelis—that might be justified in the view of many people—we should be in a very awkward position. Is the Tripartite Declaration still the main foundation of the Government policy about Israel? If we are to guarantee the frontiers of Israel, we should give a more positive declaration than that, and it should be a declaration candidly and overtly in favour of the Israelis.
If we could have some sensible aims in the Middle East, the next thing—here I follow the right hon. Gentleman—is to find some more sensible means of carrying them out. The British occasionally talk about themselves today as "the Greeks in the modern world", the old, subtle, knowledgeable people, and compare themselves with the "brash Americans". Our conduct in the Middle East does not bear out this flattering description of ourselves. We are always put in the position that we have to send in generals with red hats and bayonets on what appears to be the reactionary side. I do not say that that is altogether fair, but that is how our efforts appear to the world. That is how this Lebanon expedition will look.
Colonel Nasser does not do this. He loses battle after battle, and his bayonets are no use whatever, but he extends his influence throughout the Middle East as fast as he loses his battles. His influence has steadily grown. How has it grown? I think that it has grown because he speaks to the people themselves. He speaks to them in a language they understand. But do we? Are we broadcasting to the Arabs in the sort of language they are used to, which, I understand, is rather rough? Are we educating them? Are we educating people from Kuwait and Bahrein, and so forth, and getting them out of the way
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of Egyptian universities? Are we buying a few newspapers? I believe that they are quite cheap.
Colonel Nasser speaks in terms which appeal to people's emotions. He talks about what they want. He does not carry on propaganda about the splendours of Egypt, but about the horrors of Britain and what he can offer to the Arabs themselves. Are we engaged in attacking Russian Communism and being, candidly, crude enough in the Middle East? Or are we still tied up with the idea that all foreign relations must go through the embassy and be conducted according to protocol? I strongly suspect that embassies in the Middle East are very nearly out of date.
Lastly, have we an adequate Intelligence Service? I am bound to admit that if Nuri-es-Said did not know what was happening, it appears excusable that we should not know, but if the Communists are plotting in the Middle East we should find out as much as possible about it. Are we using the Commonwealth? I asked, in a Question the other day, whether we employ people from the Commonwealth in embassies and consulates, and so forth, and I found that we employ very few, and nearly all of them on clerical, secretariat, driving and other similar duties. The Pakistanis have a great interest in the Middle East and there are other parts of the Commonwealth which have an interest there. They are free from all sorts of inhibitions, perhaps very unfair inhibitions, which people feel about the British. Would it not be a good thing to bring them and use them for some of the more senior jobs in our embassies and outside them?
I return to the question whether we are now to make a beginning in the Middle East or whether this is an abortive landing in Lebanon from which we might find it extremely difficult to withdraw. It is easy enough to go into the country—
Sir Peter Agnew: Has the hon. Member information that we have landed there?
Mr. Grimond: I am talking about the Western world. I apologise for causing that justifiable interruption. I was thinking of the Americans.
We gave our support. Have we a clear idea of what the next step will be? Have

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we formulated a policy? If not, it is a dangerous gamble which may or may not come off. If the Americans simply get stuck in the Lebanon with the whole of the Arab world fanned against us, and no clear idea of what we have to offer them ourselves, that will be disastrous to our own interests, quite apart from the damage that it might do to the Commonwealth. We may well regret the day that the Americans took this step.
6.14 p.m.
Colonel Cyril Banks: I am grateful for the opportunity of making a contribution to this debate, for two principal reasons. The first is my attitude towards the Suez action and my resignation from the Conservative Party at that time. The second is my view of what has been said from these benches this afternoon. Having left Beirut Airport only yesterday morning, I should also like to say something about the feelings of people in that part of the world, with which I am very familiar.
I think it true to say, after having talked with friends of this country in Lebanon during the past four days, that their assessment of the position in Lebanon today is that in Beirut itself 35 per cent. of the population are behind this rebel cause, whatever be its basis, and whoever is sponsoring it, and in the countryside 66⅔ per cent. of the people are behind those who want to change the Government. That is the predominant part of the population of the whole of the Lebanon, because there are only 500,000 people in Beirut itself. This should make one think rather carefully over who is responsible for what is happening in the Lebanon at present.
It is extremely sad, and would appear so to everyone in this House, to see a town, as I have seen it during the past few days, with a policeman sitting on a chair with a tommy gun in his hands at the end of every street. One feels frightened not because he has a gun, but because he does not know how to use it, and there are plenty such people in every street. Where the arms came from, I do not know. I wish to be honest; I believe that a lot of T.N.T. has come from Syria recently and I believe many small arms have come from the same source. This has been going on for a long time, two years to my knowledge, and no one
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has done anything about it. I have been in cars which have been stopped by the police and then they have said, "It is all right. Go on." This state of affairs has continued for a considerable time and it has been responsible for the present strength of the movement.
I do not personally think it fair to lay the cause of the growth of this movement completely at the door of Colonel Nasser. I think it fair to say that he is interested in getting rid of many people in power in the surrounding Arab States and that he looks on many of these revolutionary movements in a very kindly way and is quite prepared to see them take place.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: Hear, hear.
Colonel Banks: I do not mind an interruption and do not mind a little sarcasm. I have had a lot of it in the last eighteen months, and I can take it and not change my views. So far as I am concerned. I do not think that Colonel Nasser is wholly responsible.
A lot has been said about nationalism. I believe that there is now a different feeling among people in the Middle East. They want to look after their own destiny, and to control their own house. They are entitled to do it. I think that we did their cause and our cause—ours particularly—a great deal of damage at the time of Suez. Many people have said to me today, "What is your attitude now, because you said that you would resign if a bomb was dropped on Port Said?". which I did.
In view of the position and the way in which it has developed and the neglect which has been shown, I believe that there is now no alternative for the West but to do something about it. It is not the fault of people like myself, but the fact that we have had no policy in that part of the world for a considerable time. As a Lebanese put it to me the day before yesterday, "Nothing will happen because the West has watched these things happening for so long since the war. It is not interested now. It will just take note of it and have nothing to say, but will send a letter to the United Nations, which we are all fond of doing and which is quite useless." That is the attitude of Lebanese people towards this position.
I turn now to Iraq. I spoke to the Chief-of-Cabinet in Colonel Nasser's

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office, Ali Sabri, two years ago. He said, "If you people want to be useful to the Western cause why do you not stop the growth of Communism in Iraq?" At that time and since Egypt has been controlling Communism and has put Communists in gaol every time they have reared their heads, but for two or three years there has been a wonderful growth of Communism in Bagdad and no one has done anything about it. The Egyptians told me about it and I wrote to the Foreign Office, which ridiculed it. I think it is time that we had a little more common sense, as the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) said. It is time we woke up and did something about it.
I agree that we have to send in troops; I do not think we can avoid it. But I do not think that that would have been necessary had not the newspapers and everybody else in this country tried to cut Colonel Nasser down to size over such a long period. That is what they have tried to do, and they have placed this country in such a foul position that we are now hated by many people in the Middle East. This need never have happened. As I suggested eighteen months ago, we could have brought Colonel Nasser to London and talked to him. It would not have hurt anybody, even if we had got nowhere with him, but I believe that we could have made a very good friend of this country.
Colonel Nasser wants only to improve the standard of living of the ordinary people, among whom he was brought up. I was brought up in somewhat similar surroundings, by comparison, and I have every sympathy with his point of view. He said to me, "I am not a Communist and I never will be. I know what will happen to me if the Communists take hold of my country. My head will roll in the sand within twelve months." Those are his words, not at a Press Conference but used by him to me. I believe in him. I have not changed my views. Nevertheless, I think that it is now necessary to intervene, but not with 5,000 troops, because we cannot control the border between Syria and the Lebanon with 5,000 troops. If we are to do it, it must be done properly.
I say to this country and to the United States, "When you have done it, follow up what you have done militarily by
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giving the people in that part of the world a decent life to live. Give them some work to do with their hands. Make them independent of the charity which they have been receiving from our hands and from American hands for the last eleven years. Let them have an opportunity to live as good people in this free world, each husband knowing that he is earning enough to support his family."
6.23 p.m.
Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: I think that we all admire, as I certainly admire, the personal courage and convictions of the hon. and gallant Member for Pudsey (Colonel Banks). I would also say that as a defender of the intervention in the Lebanon he put forward an extremely striking argument. What he said was, "The situation is so utterly desperate that we can think of nothing else to do except to send in troops."
The hon. and gallant Member also gave the very wholesome warning that 5,000 troops are not enough and that this is only the beginning. It is the thought that 5,000 is only the beginning of a process which may stretch over a long time, and take us a long way down the slope to disaster, that worries hon. Members on this side of the House this afternoon.
I want to take up a point made by the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head). He said that we must have a new and imaginative policy for detaching the liberation movements from the Kremlin, but when we asked him what that policy was, he said that if we had had four more days we could have won at Suez. I must put it to him that that is not a view which would find support among many liberation movements.
We have not done very much this afternoon to examine the effects of this landing in Asia, Africa and the Middle East. We must, first, examine those effects. Whatever we think about it, we have to admit that 95 per cent. of the population of countries outside the North Atlantic area will regard this landing as an example of a brutal Western imperialism. Hon. Members may think, and I may think, that that is unfair, but the fact will remain that the effect of this action will be to confirm the view that Britain and America learn nothing from experience and are opposed to the

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liberation movements. That is surely a relevant factor in assessing the wisdom or lack of wisdom in carrying out this operation.
Here I wish strongly to support a suggestion made by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). I am sure that he is right when he says, "Do not imagine that the Americans did this as part of a well-considered plan." The Americans have been teetering on the edge of intervention in the Lebanon week after week. Their fleet has been sailing up and down in a highly provocative way. They have been saying, "Will I, won't I, will I, won't I?", and now they have fallen off the brink into intervention.
They have done it for the reason given by the hon. and gallant Member for Pudsey—because they could think of nothing else to do in their reaction to what happened in Iraq. Let us be perfectly clear about this; the reason that they have gone into the Lebanon is not an invitation from the Lebanon. The reason is that the shock of Iraq made them feel that a demonstration of strength had to be made. They felt that they ought to do something somewhere, and because the troops were here and the plans were there and Admiral Brown had been saying for the last six weeks, "I am all ready for orders", the Americans said, "Let us carry out this plan and land. That is the least we can do and that is the most we can do. We shall all feel better about it when we land."
It must be quite clear to everybody, however, that if the troops merely stay in the Lebanon, the effect of this act will wear off. For this demonstration has to do with Bagdad. I therefore want to know what is to be the next step when the Arabs cease to be impressed by the picnic on the beaches, by the magnificent sight of the great ships and the landing craft and the landing of sturdy sunburnt soldiers. This is a tremendous on-day stunt, but what is the next step? Do they think up some other sudden expedient?
I remind hon. Members that wars do not always start because bad men plan them. Unfortunately, great wars have been started because weak men took sudden unpredictable expedients without calculating the consequences of those expedients and without realising that
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from one expedient they would be driven to the next.
This is why hon. Members are asking themselves about Jordan. Is that to be the next expedient? It may not be today or tomorrow; we may have a Summer Recess first, as we had two years ago, and it may be that after six or seven weeks there will be another little crisis somewhere, and the need of another demonstration, and this time our men will be popped in, with no very good reason for doing so except the feeling that we must do something strong and, in the words of the right hon. Member for Carshalton, "something imaginative." I cannot help wondering whether we could not think of rather more imaginative things than landing troops and dumping them into countries without calculation of the consequences.
I do not believe that it is fair to say that we have had no policy in the Middle East in the last few years. There has been a policy. It has been the policy of building an alliance of the kings against the colonels. The Eisenhower Doctrine means building an alliance of States which will be pro-Western and strong and wealthy and which will overthrow Colonel Nasser. That has been the policy of Her Majesty's Government and the American Government ever since the Americans took over. We have been running that American policy with them and this landing in the Lebanon, and a possible British landing in Amman, are part of that policy.
That landing has been necessary because the policy has worked so badly and the kings have proved so decadent, so weak and so corrupt that it has become clear that even if we gave them millions of pounds worth of British and American arms—and they have all been getting such arms—they could not use them, because the kind of people who would be prepared to fight are on the other side. Those who are prepared to fight are the young colonels, such as Colonel Nasser.
I, also, got to know Colonel Nasser before he was a famous man and, like many others, I was extremely impressed by him and by the quality and the guts he has. It was not the kings and the generals, but the captains and the majors and the other young officers who felt deeply humiliated and who felt that their

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countries must be cleaned up that created the liberation movements. We back the kings—Hussein, Feisal and Saud—and when we back that type of utterly corrupt and feudal king, every decent young Arab is driven into Nasser's arms. I hope that we, too, should all be there if we were in a similar position; we should all say, "Of course I am on the side of having my country cleaned up."
Mr. Ronald Bell: Is the hon. Member suggesting that King Hussein is aptly described as "decadent, weak and corrupt"?
Mr. Crossman: I am glad to have the opportunity of clearing up the position in Jordan. Jordan was the only country in the Middle East which had nearly reached the position of being a democracy. They elected a democratic Government. The only trouble was that the vast majority of the inhabitants of Jordan had two passions—hatred of Britain and hatred of the Jews.
These are the dominating passions of Jordan. The result was that the democratically-elected Government was one whose only desire was to break with this country. But it was suppressed. The King has destroyed every element of freedom in that country and has imposed a royal dictatorship as ruthless and as blind to the real forces as that which was overthrown last week in Iraq. We have been relying on men who have imposed ruthless régimes on our side which have been seeking to frustrate these young forces.
Mr. Ronald Bell: They are not very weak, in fact.
Mr. Crossman: I do not like to talk about the future of Jordan, but I am willing to take a small bet with the hon. Member that the forces of freedom in Jordan will win before very long; and if we are on the wrong side, they will win as pro-Nasser, anti-Western. It was only last week that a coup was suppressed in Jordan which was timed, probably, to come off before the Iraq coup.
I am only putting the central point to the Government that nothing has been advanced this evening to suggest how we can prevent this division in the Middle East between those who have, who are wealthy and decadent, and who are on our side, and those who have not, who
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are young, vigorous and idealistic, who are on the other side.
Mr. F. A. Burden: I am interested in this point. I would like to know whether the hon. Member still believes that Colonel Nasser is not anti-Jewish. In reply to a question which I put to the hon. Member in September two years ago, when the House was recalled, the hon. Member said that he always went to see Colonel Nasser after going to Israel because he felt that Colonel Nasser was interested in what was going on in Israel. The hon. Member wanted to tell him about it and said it because he was convinced that Colonel Nasser was not anti-Jewish or anti-Israel.
Mr. Crossman: It is a little difficult to make a speech when one is interrupted with totally irrelevant questions, which I am, however, willing to answer. [An HON. MEMBER: "They are of major relevance."] That is not on the subject of which I was talking. I think that the answer is that as a politician Colonel Nasser, like every Arab, has to be anti-Israel. He is, I think, one of the few realistic Arabs—there are, however, an increasing number of them now—who know well that, although they have to shout at Israel, Israel has come to stay and they must face reality some time. I would like to bring them nearer to reality by removing all the other things which make them anti-Western. The way to do that is by permitting them to unite.
I was very glad when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition stressed that pan-Arabism is something for which this country has stood. Why did we build the Arab League? What did we say to the Arabs except that we wanted to give them freedom and enable them to create a big State of their own? They were all parcelled up after 1918 in an arbitrary fashion. Every Arab regards freedom first and foremost as freedom from the artificial divisions which divide their countries arbitrarily one from another. They want to build their own big State in the Middle East. It will be built by power and with dictatorial means, if it is built at all. If we resist their building it, we merely drive them into further and more ruthless dictatorial methods of achieving the unification of the Middle East, which is the aim of the Arab.

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Israel can only have a settled peace when she comes to terms with a unified Arab world. I do not think that it is against Israel's interests to see the Arab world united. Those Israelis who believe that the thing to do is to rely on the French, and on division and old-fashioned colonial methods, do their country no good whatever by linking with Western methods of assertion in the Middle East which would. In fact, they dig the grave of Israel, for Israel's future depends ultimately on living with the Arab.
Mr. Burden rose—
Mr. Crossman: I have answered the hon. Member's question. I shall not give way to him again.
Mr. Burden: Will the Arabs live with the Israelis?
Mr. Crossman: We must try. We are trying this evening to discuss whether the pouring of 5,000 American marines into the Lebanon is a good start. I suggest that the major result of this is to make it more difficult for the West to come to terms with the Arabs. Nobody has given any reason why that is not so.
The next thing I want to talk about briefly is Jordan. We must warn the Government. I was glad to notice that hon. Members even on the other side of the House are aware of the dangers in this job. The American picnic in Lebanon is one thing, but a British expedition to Jordan would be quite different. I am not now talking about the morality of it. I do not deny that we are allowed to go to places when the King invites us. Of course, it is technically and legally in order to accept his invitation. But I am talking about whether it is wise to accept.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg). I want to know, first, how we are to get there. It is all very well to put 2,000 troops in aeroplanes to get them there, but how do we supply them afterwards—by aeroplane permanently, or through the Gulf of Aqaba? Are the Government prepared for the time when the Canal is closed again? Are we to go round the Cape? It is fun having the Americans with their splendid fleet anchored off Beirut, but our troops would be cut off hundreds of miles away and with no line of communication.
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I want to know whether we are, in fact, contemplating the idea, which is now in the newspapers, that sooner or later, if Hussein asks us, we shall go in. There would, in my view, be only one justification for entering Jordan with troops. That is if British personnel were in danger and it was our duty to preserve the lives of British persons in Jordan. Then, I can visualise our putting troops in for that sole purpose. I see no other circumstances in which an invasion or intervention in Jordan would be anything but utterly disastrous to this country and to the whole Western Alliance.
One other thing to be remembered is that we are giving some very fine precedents for intervention from another side. We embark upon all these things with 5,000 American marines in Lebanon and then, say, 2,000 British in Jordan. Our line of communication to the Middle East is a very long one, but somebody else's line of communication is much shorter. Did we not learn in Korea who had the advantage of distance and whether it was wise to conduct a war halfway across the world? Have the Government thought about these things when they talk gaily of playing our part in this Anglo-American excursion?
Let us look at Iraq, which, after all, is now unified with Jordan. If we back the Arab Legion and Jordanian troops in trying to recreate a Nuri-es-Said régime and to smash the revolution, I have no doubt whatever what would happen. Somebody would back the other side and it would be the Russians. They would be able to pour in arms and volunteers, if necessary. So we should have a "Spanish" war on our hands and one in which it is extremely easy to predict the winner.
I beg the House not to underestimate the sensitivity of the Russians about this part of the world. After all, our action in this part of the world, as I have said before, corresponds to Russian action in Mexico along the Texan frontier. The American reaction to that would be very vigorous. If Russian marines were landing in Central America we would find some very vigorous reactions. It is, surely, a mistake to underestimate what one's formidable enemy would do if we provoked him right up on his frontier far away from our own base, where he has every advantage and where it is his national duty to neutralise the area if he

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possibly can. Have our Government and the Americans calculated all this before they entered upon this move? I do not think so for one moment. In my view, they merely thought this one up to make themselves feel that they had done something. This, it seems to me, is the major danger which we face.
We on this side of the House are always being asked what we would do. I think that there is only one thing we can do. We must admit that the presence of British and American troops in the Middle East, so far from defending our interests, is a major threat to our security. We must appreciate the feeling of the Arabs about Western imperialism. We learnt this in Jordan, where our troops were the cause of our expulsion. Jordan got to hate them. Now, two years after we were thrown out, there is talk of sending troops back again to build up a position of strength!
We must get it quite clear that no intervention of that type does anything but play into the hands of the Russians. It enables them to intervene—they can be much more efficient in these things—and they will do so if they are compelled. Our one chance in the Middle East is to offer to the Arab world the one thing that every Arab conscientiously wants: that is, to be on neither side.
If neutrality, unity and real independence are what those people want, then for heaven's sake offer it them. Say to them, "We believe that you have the right to be neutral. We believe that you have the right to have all foreigners forced out. We do not concern ourselves with whether you have a dictatorship or a democracy. That is your affair." Let us give them their freedom even to make their own mistakes. I would rather see a genuinely Arab Government which is bad than a puppet Government which is good.
What was wrong with the Iraqi Government was that it was a Government which depended basically on Britain and was quite efficient, but unfortunately no young Arab could like its efficiency because he could not be proud of it as really and genuinely Arab. It was "Anglo-Arab", and there is nothing more horrible than that.
It is no good saying, "Let us broadcast to those people and compete with Nasser." We cannot compete with
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Nasser in broadcasting to the Arabs because Nasser broadcasts to the Arabs as an Arab, and we cannot. We have to broadcast as British to Arabs, and that has not the same appeal, and it has lost any appeal, because the main interest of any Arab in the British is to get rid of us. The main, basic Arab desire is to send us home and sell us their oil, at the highest price they possibly can.
They are good businessmen, and they know quite well that they are not getting the highest price for their oil. They know quite well that they could get a lot more under certain forms of nationalisation. They watched the Persians, and there are still advantages to be won by the Arab States. So let us offer them, "We will buy your oil." Let us offer them, "We accept your neutrality."
There is one other thing we have to say. We have one moral responsibility in the Middle East, and that is Israel. We must make it absolutely clear that if we withdraw militarily from the Middle East we are committed to the defence of Israel against invasion. I should like that laid down from the very start of all we do.
Mr. Patrick Maitland: Why Israel and not the others?
Mr. Crossman: Why Israel and not the others? I will tell the hon. Member. Because we were responsible for creating the Israeli State.
Mr. Maitland: Who created Iraq and Jordan?
Mr. Crossman: The hon. Member's history is short. We actually transferred Jews from all over the world and promised them a homeland. The Arabs will not be pleased if we say to them, "We made Iraq," because they think that they had something to do with it themselves, but every Jew knows that the Balfour Declaration was a British Declaration which created a national home. Having done that, we have a special responsibility for some of the problems we created. The Jews do not need us to fight, but they need arms.
So I say again, let us guarantee the Arabs their neutrality and we shall have some chance of getting an agreement on oil. The landing of troops in Beirut, and,

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even worse, a British landing in Amman, would destroy our position, not strengthen it.
6.43 p.m.
Sir James Hutchison: As an obituary notice of friends of this country, the allies of Britain, King Feisal and Nuri-es-Said, I think the speech of the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) to which we have just listened is in the worst possible taste I have ever heard. I do not accept his strictures, his criticisms or his condemnation of the two Kingdoms in the matter of the treatment of their people; nor do I accept that theirs were puppet Governments of ours. If indeed they were, how came it that we allowed General Glubb to be dismissed so summarily, if we controlled the whole situation?
There was a common thread which ran through the admirable speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) and the speech of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), and that was that, however we may overcome it, we are losing the propaganda war; we are not succeeding in impressing the Arab world with our real intention and with our real interest in their future. I agree with both of them that it needs rethinking; perhaps, indeed, it needs more spending; perhaps it needs much more technical advice. However, the fact is that both are right; we are losing that all-important war.
I had intended to make a speech to the House in anticipation of what the Leader of the Opposition was likely to say. I thought he would reflect some of the anger which boiled over at Question Time yesterday. So to the benefit of the House, perhaps, but to my dismay, my speech will be very much shorter than I had intended, for to my great pleasure the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) showed a measure of thoughtfulness and, indeed, statesmanship which I did not expect and which is all too rare in the treatment of foreign policy matters.
Mr. William Ross: Oh, really.
Sir J. Hutchison: He did, however—and it has been repeated in other speeches—refer to the possible action of Russia if
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called upon by Poland or another satellite State. This is a question which is worth examining and which was, in part, answered by the Foreign Secretary at Question Time a day or two ago, because it is the fundamental question in our thinking. There is all the difference in the world when help is asked from the properly elected Government of a people, a Government who reflect the people's wishes, and help which is asked from a puppet Government at the dictation or the wish of the country which wants to come to their aid.
First of all, therefore, we must decide, because it is a fundamental part of our policy, whether the Government in existence reflect the wishes of the people. If they do, they have, at any rate in the Middle East, an entitlement to call for help if their country's frontiers are being invaded and if the Government of the country is being disrupted by intervention from abroad.
It has been said today, indeed it was said by the Leader of the Opposition, that the action which has been taken by the United States of America and which has our approval will strengthen the anti-Western feeling beyond the degree of anti-Western feeling which exists now. But nobody seems to realise or to follow to its logical conclusion what the alternative would be. We have watched one Middle Eastern State after another being cajoled, suborned, frightened, dragooned into becoming part of the satellite empire of Nasser. Were we going to allow this to continue without taking any sort of step to prevent it? Were we going to let the drift go on until it included Kuwait and Bahrein and the whole Arab world?
The hon. Member for Coventry, East said we would buy our oil from them when that situation obtains. At what price? Are they prepared to deal on a reasonable basis? And if we do not get our oil on a reasonable basis, has he considered what the effect would be on our industry and our exports? That is the crux of the matter. Nasser's proclaimed intention is to control the whole area and, indeed, is to destroy Israel. Are we then prepared to accept that as the alternative—I do not say of unpopularity—but to the risk of more unpopularity?
Mr. Burden: When I saw Nasser he also said, "If I control the whole of the

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Middle East I can bring your aeroplanes, your ships, your submarines and the whole of your industry to a rusty motionless halt." That is restated in his "Philosophy of the Revolution".
Sir J. Hutchison: I am indebted to my hon. Friend. That exactly reflects what must be at the bottom of such a man's thinking.
We have all had experience of dictators They all run true to form with their anti-foreign phobia, and the making of one demand after another until we ask, Is it worth saying now, 'At this point you stop'?" It is following exactly the Hitler technique in another area, and in perhaps a smaller way, and we must ask whether the time has not come when we have to say that it must stop. I think that that time should have come earlier. I think that we would have been right to say at the time of Suez, "Now this has to stop."
We should have had a different situation today if we had handled the Suez situation differently. It was not our fault that Nasser was built up, after an ignominious defeat, by those who might have seen further at that time. Nevertheless, before the Suez expedition set off we should have carried our partners in Europe with us. We carried only one, but I believe that the others, if they had been consulted, would have agreed. The attitude of the United States to the united voice of Europe would have been different and history of the Middle East would have taken a different course.
I ask the Prime Minister, therefore, to make sure that consultation with our allies in Europe in these matters takes place all the time. I believe that they are thinking as we are thinking. I should like to know whether, when he replies to the debate, he can tell us what their attitude is. All we know is that the French have indicated that they would go to the help of the Lebanon in certain circumstances, as reported in the Press. I do not know about that, but I should be very glad indeed to know.
I should like to say something about the Secretary-General of the United Nations. I am not criticising him as a man. I am criticising his judgment but, most of all, I am criticising the system which allows one individual to take decisions of such immense importance to the peace of the world, on
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what appears to be his own initiative. I refer, for example, to the sending of observers to the Lebanon, the failure to go to Hungary, the withdrawal of the observers from the Lebanon after the report that all was, if not tolerably well, at any rate not perilously dangerous in the Lebanon, a report which subsequently has been shown to be quite inaccurate.
I believe that this system under which the Secretary-General reports and the manner in which the United Nations hear from him needs reviewing and speeding up so that the United Nations can come to a quick decision. Speed in this case is of the essence of the matter. The idea that a report could be made to the United Nations at the speed at which things were moving and that we could wait for a debate in the General Assembly is quite impossible. I should prefer to see the United Nations holding the ring, but could the United Nations forces have been got there in time? Now they may be able to take the place of American troops. If they can, I believe that would be a good move.
I am certain that public opinion is behind what the Government have done—a public opinion which believes that there has been too much vacillation. I believe that public opinion thanks heaven now to see some decision and courage.
6.55 p.m.
Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: I rise to intervene briefly in the debate to voice anxieties which I feel deeply myself and which I think are shared by all my hon. Friends and by many people outside the House. In one or two speeches from hon. Members opposite we have heard the familiar explanation that the sequence of events in the Middle East in the last two days is largely the result of Communist subversion directed from Moscow, and that what is taking place today in the Lebanon is the most effective method of meeting that Communist threat. I profoundly disagree with that analysis. I think that it does a grave disservice to our own interests in the Middle East to attribute what has been happening there in the last ten years since the Palestine war to the efforts of the Kremlin.
I am deeply distressed by the American action in Beirut, partly because I think that, from a purely tactical point of

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view, an attempt to renew military intervention and occupation from the West in the Middle East is not an effective way of propping up and prolonging the lives of unrepresentative, unpopular bankrupt, régimes. I have no doubt that the great mass of public opinion, if one can use such a term in the backward areas of which we speak, at any rate the great bulk of popular sentiment, is disgusted with the régimes in power.
I believe that they associate the monarchies in Iraq and Jordan with foreign control, from which they wish to be liberated. In spite of the material progress that has been made in recent years in Iraq—and many of us on this side of the House have been impressed by the way in which the oil revenues in that country have been spent—I believe that the great mass of people there, in Jordan and the Lebanon would make short work of those Governments if real democratic processes could function in those countries and were allowed to operate. Therefore, purely from the practical point of view, I cannot do anything but deplore the events of the last twenty-four hours.
However many troops we and the Americans pour into the country, I do not believe that, without finding ourselves in the position of straightforward military occupation such as is the case in Cyprus, we should be able to keep those régimes in being. It is tragic that, instead of trying to repeat the failure of Suez, we cannot turn our minds to the possibility of a settlement and of reaching a period of co-operation with the forces of Arab nationalisation and Arab unity, of which people here years ago were pioneers, and with whom alone we and the Western Powers will be able to co-operate on a basis of reality in future.
I am not suggesting that we should surrender to Colonel Nasser and the new movements arising in Iraq and elsewhere, but unless we accept the fact that the movement for Arab unity is desirable, both in the interests of the people of those countries and the world as a whole, and of an eventual settlement between the Arabs and the Jews in Israel in the future, we shall drift from disaster to disaster.
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Secondly, I am deeply apprehensive at what has been happening, because it seems to me that it sets a disastrous precedent in our attitude to Russian subversion and power-politics in other parts of the world. My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) referred to that in his brilliant speech a few moments ago. It seems to me that we are in grave danger, if what has started in the Lebanon is followed by similar action in Jordan and perhaps Iraq, of seeing a tragic repetition of what happened two years ago. Then, it seems, according to growing evidence now, that had it not been for the Suez campaign the Hungarian people and others in Eastern Europe might today be free. It would be a tragedy if a conflagration resulted from Western intervention in the Middle East and enabled the Russian Government to take the opportunity of strangling the birth of a limited freedom in Poland and, perhaps, then moving in on Yugoslavia.
I felt profoundly depressed when I learnt the news of the American landing, because of the relationship between the American Government and the United Nations, and the way in which the action was taken without even waiting for the conclusion of the meeting of the Security Council which was taking place in the United Nations.
It may be an old-fashioned view to believe that the peace of the world may be strengthened by the United Nations. If, as some hon. Members opposite seem to do, it is the modern trend to write off the United Nations altogether and to decide that the only hope is to go back to power politics and the law of the jungle, I am afraid that I cannot share that view. I cannot see how American intervention, and, what I fear much more, the possibility of British intervention in Jordan and perhaps in Iraq, can be anything but a shattering blow to the prestige and the effectiveness of the United Nations.
If it is a fact, as was hinted during this debate, that actually the American move is simply a preliminary step, an action which may only mean that American marines remain in the Lebanon for a few days while a United Nations force is prepared to take their place, no one would be more delighted than I. But I feel bound to recall that

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there was similar talk about the United Nations holding the ring at the time of the Suez operation, and I remember how hollow those words then were. We do not have direct responsibility at present for what is happening in the Middle East.
We, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said at the beginning of the debate, deplore the Government's support for the American action in the Lebanon. Our direct responsibility lies in what use is made of British troops in that country, and in other parts of the Middle East. I should like to end by imploring the Government to give an assurance at the earliest possible moment that it is not our intention to seek any kind of repetition of the disastrous Suez operation and that British troops are not going to be used in any part of the Middle East, except as part of a United Nations contingent acting with the authority of the United Nations.
7.2 p.m.
Mr. Ronald Bell: Had I not known that the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) does not number cynicism among his faults, I should have thought that it was almost cynical of him to say as he did that but for the Suez operation a couple of years ago many millions of people in Eastern Europe would not now be under Communist domination. When one considers that 100 million Europeans have been under Russian domination for all too many years now and that it has always been of approximately the same bloodthirsty kind, I find it rather shocking that the hon. Gentleman should again drag out that parallel in this debate.
Mr. F. Noel-Baker: I invite the hon. Member to look at HANSARD tomorrow. What I said was that had it not been for the Suez operation, it might very well be that the Hungarians and perhaps other people in the Balkans might be free today.
Mr. Bell: That is exactly what I thought the hon. Gentleman said, and it struck me as extraordinary and deplorably irrelevant.
The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and some other
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hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), have expressed the opinion in this debate that one of our greatest errors in the Middle East has been inadequate emphasis upon propaganda. I always thought this a very attractive argument which comes easily to people nowadays, but the question I ask myself, when I hear that argument put, is what it is we are supposed to say to the Arabs.
I was surprised that the hon. Member for Coventry, East was so aggressive in the general tone of his speech when I remember that the rootlessness of Western policy in the Middle East today dates primarily from the events of 1948, when this country walked out of Palestine and made no arrangement for what was to follow after. I do not attempt to make a party point about this because it is true that there was not a party issue made of it at the time, and it acquired a considerable and, for me, a very unfortunate amount of consent.
The fact is that we left the Middle East to whatever should happen, and the apparent theory of the Government of the time, which was in fact the Government of the party opposite, was that they must sort the thing out for themselves and the United Nations must lick it into shape. We know what happened. There were two or three years of very bloody warfare and many fruitless meetings and Resolutions of the United Nations; and the basic fact is that the United Nations did not sort it out and did nothing effective at all. That is why in 1950 the Western Powers, not really acting under the Charter of the United Nations as they professed to do, but acting in despair, produced the Tripartite Declaration, which was a standstill arrangement for the Middle East.
Having achieved that standstill, they again allowed the matter to drift. They passed the responsibility back to the United Nations and the United Nations again, year after year, did nothing to sort it out. That is why the British position in the Middle East is so difficult at the present time, and that is why Nasser's propagandists have a story to tell, and we are, to put it mildly, at a great disadvantage when it comes to turning the loudspeakers to Arab audiences.

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The fact is that Britain is the country which by the Balfour Declaration—however great and imaginative an act of statesmanship that may have been—brought into existence the Jewish National Home, with all the problems and stresses for the Arabs which that involved, and in 1948 we walked out, leaving the stresses unresolved and the job unfinished. No party in this House and equally not this country carries that blame alone. We know the history of it, and it would not be right in this debate if I took up time in recounting it. We all know why that happened and that there were fair-seeming reasons why we should have done it; but we cannot expect the Arabs to feel very grateful to us for the state of affairs in the Middle East at the present time, and if ever they were inclined to forget it there are 1 million refugees living in camps in the Arab countries to remind them of it.
The first message which I want to put into my speech this evening is that we have proceeded from stop gap to stop gap in the Middle East, and we have now to face the responsibility of finishing off the job which we walked out upon ten years ago. We have to put forward a settlement of the central problem of the Middle East, and unless we do that there will not be any general solution to the present difficulties in the Middle East.
What Nasser thrives on is not merely Communist inspiration and help—it would be easy to exaggerate that—although I am sure that element exists. What he thrives upon is the fact that there is an unresolved problem and that there is an anti-Western sentiment arising out of it, and that Arab nationalism can easily be diverted into anti-Westernism because the West is responsible, in Arab eyes, for that situation and will do nothing about it.
It is easy to say that this is a job for the United Nations. Of course it is. It has been so ever since 1948. It is no use jobbing back now to discuss it again, but, if we were right in walking out, clearly the United Nations, from whom, after all, we held the mandate, should have sorted out the problem. But they did not do so and the West had to impose a standstill. The standstill is plainly breaking down. It is hardly realistic to suggest that the position in the Middle
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East is still governed by the Tripartite Declaration.
It would be very nice if the United Nations would solve this problem but, let us face it, we all know that it will not. It just will not be solved that way and, therefore, the sheer logic of the matter drives me to the conclusion that the problem will have to be solved by the West. I have for some time strongly held the view that it is a matter of duty for the West to take an initiative in the Middle East and to put forward a solution.
Indeed, when I visited an Arab country early this year I was surprised at the number of Arabs living an ordinary private life, not in official positions, who said to me, "Don't you realise that no Arab country can enter into direct negotiations with Israel in order to find a solution of this problem of the refugees, the frontiers and so on? Any Arab statesman who did that would be driven from public life. We cannot do it. Why doesn't the West arrange a fair and reasonable solution and impose it upon us? We would all protest bitterly—and be very thankful." That is true.
Once again I know that, although this has a simple sound, it is not easy for the West to arrive at a solution and impose it in the year 1958, and I do not want to suggest to the House for a moment that it is easy. Yet I think the responsibility lies upon us and that the problem is not quite so difficult as it seems and that the difficulty could be overcome.
That being so, it naturally colours my approach to what has been happening in the Middle East. The narrow, legalistic line can be taken and, if it is, it is comforting to us as a country and as a Government. I think that the constitutional Government of a country plainly has a right to invite in troops of a friendly Power to support it; otherwise, it would be difficult to explain the presence of United States troops in Britain or of British troops in Germany. Plainly, that must be all right in international law.
There must also come a point where a constitutionally elected Government might try to keep itself in power against the wish of the population by the support of troops invited in from outside. Equally, that could not be a proper

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thing to do. It must be a question of degree, and somewhere between those extremes there is the dividing line. But I would say that whenever a constitutionally elected Government, within the term for which it is constitutionally elected, is threatened by disorder fomented from outside, it must be proper and lawful for it to invite help from outside.
So I think that on this ground the matter is plain enough, but we have to look at this question tonight, as many speakers on both sides of the House have done, from a wider viewpoint. Does it help the solution of the general Middle Eastern problem, and is it compatible with the interests of the United Kingdom and the Western countries in the Middle East, that we should now take an active rôle and intervene, by force if necessary, in the events in the Middle East?
I should like to present two or three considerations to the House about this. The first one is that I do not believe that the presence of British troops in the Middle East will stimulate anti-British sentiment. That is the kind of belief, the kind of opinion which, when put forward, is plausibly attractive but experience has not shown it to be true. Quite the contrary. The hon. Member for Coventry, East said it was the presence of British Forces in Jordan which made the Jordanians hate the British. The Jordanians do not hate the British. They never have hated the British. Quite the reverse. They are very much attached to the British connection, and that goes for the great majority of Jordanians.
The presence of British troops there never had any hostile effect in that way; on the contrary, the British troops mixed with the local population to a surprising degree and were very much liked. I think that the presence of American troops in the Lebanon will strengthen Western feeling in the Lebanon. If that occurs to some hon. Members as surprising, I cannot argue it because one cannot argue such a proposition. I am merely convinced that it will turn out so.
Then it was suggested that we would destroy Western interests by appearing to support puppet régimes in the Middle East. The hon. Member for Coventry, East used the expression a collection of kings who are decadent, weak and corrupt." I will say nothing about King
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Saud because I do not know anything about him, but nobody will persuade me that King Hussein is decadent, weak and corrupt. I do not believe him to be any one of those three; indeed, on the evidence of my own eyes and acquaintance, I believe the contrary in each case. I believe him to be a high-minded young man, I believe him to be a very strong personality, and the imputation of corruption is beyond my comprehension. There is no shadow of evidence of it and it is completely out of character.
I believe the same to be true of King Feisal, and I believe the same to be true of th Shah of Persia who, I presume, was the other king the hon. Gentleman had in mind. Nothing in the history of the past few years could give the slightest ground or justification for the accusations which th hon. Gentleman made. In fact, the behaviour of King Hussein in the rebellion of last year was one of remarkable personal courage, which stimulated enthusiastic admiration throughout the Arab countries.
I would have thought that the conduct of the Jordan Government in recent weeks, to which the hon. Member for Coventry, East referred, in dealing with the plot, which undoubtedly existed, was also not, as the hon. Gentleman described it, a sign of weakness but a sign of remarkable competence and strength. I think we owe a duty not just to these régimes in the Middle East, but to the whole Arab cause in the Middle East, to see that its progress and the cause of Arab nationalism is not left entirely at the mercy of hired assassins and bribery and murder. Look how many good men have been murdered in the Middle East because of bribery and corruption from outside. We all know what that means and where it came from.
Is it really a disservice to the cause of the Arab movement, this great sentiment of unity which we did more to nurture than anyone else in the Arab revolt in the first war—is it a disservice to that cause to say that we will not stand aside and see the whole development of the Arab world at the mercy of adverse influences coming from Russia and from Egypt, from people who want to exploit it for selfish ends?
It is a mere anachronism to suggest that in the Middle East there are mature, solid, experienced public opinions and

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that all that needs to be done is for us to stand back to be sure that a Government will represent the considered will of the people. That is just not the present position in the Middle East. We have to have a counterbalance of influences and forces. That is a pity. We do not need it in England where we can stand on our own feet; but it is needed in the Middle East. If we do not have it, this great cause of Arab nationalism will be turned into a fatal direction which will not only damage the Arab peoples and their future, but also be most injurious to the cause of our country, which is also our responsibility.
I hope that not only shall we give comradely and proper support to the United States in all moderate and reasonable action which it takes in that area, but also that we shall not shrink from helping our friends if we think that their difficulties do not originate solely from the spontaneous development of Arab opinion, but are fostered and nourished by seditious forces outside their countries.
7.22 p.m.
Mr. G. A. Pargiter: A feature of late nineteenth century and early twentieth century imperialism was the ability of the British to send a gunboat to a trouble spot, land a few troops, run up the flag and put everything right and have it nicely settled. A feature of the second half of the twentieth century appears to be the ability of the Americans to send the 5th, 6th or 7th Fleet to trouble spots in an attempt to do precisely the same thing. The only difference, of course, is that in the changed circumstances of the world that policy will simply not work like that, because the forces now operating are very different from those which operated when Britain so successfully pursued that policy. While history may repeat itself, it is seldom that it repeats itself so quickly.
In any talk of the Middle East and dictators, it must be remembered that we do not like dictators, unless we have set them up and they are friendly to us. Then we do not mind. It is those who do not like us and who think differently who are horrible dictators who ought to be put down and got rid of.
Mr. Frederick Gough: Can the hon. Member give one instance of one dictator whom we have set up?
Hon. Members: Hussein.
Mr. Pargiter: The hon. Member should look round the Middle East. One name has been mentioned, but he will see what we have done about setting up dictators in other areas.
Mr. Patrick Maitland rose—
Mr. Pargiter: I do not propose to give way.
We have been fairly successful and the policy has paid off.
Mr. Maitland: Tito is the only one.
Mr. Gough: Will the hon. Member answer my question.
Mr. Pargiter: I have answered the question. I said that the hon. Member should look round the Middle East and round other parts of the world as well.
However, that is not important. What is important is that dictators whom we like and whom we maintain in power—[HON. MEMBERS: "What dictators?"]—Hon. Members should look round the Persian Gulf where they will find dictators whose power is maintained by British troops. Let us be quite clear about that. We maintain them because they are favourable to us and they lean towards what we believe to be stable government and they do not interfere with our oil supplies. It is because we have greased their palms sufficiently that they do not interfere with our oil supplies. Let us not be mealymouthed about that.
However, the forces of today are such that these things will not work any longer and these policies are no longer working out in the Middle East. They did not work out in Egypt, they will not work out in Libya, and they are not working out in Jordan. They may work in the Lebanon, if sufficient troops are sent there to keep the people quiet, for a while, but those troops cannot be kept there for all time. We have to allow these forces to work. The important thing is to see that they work for us and not against us. We have to encourage those forces to go in the direction in which we will want them to go when we no longer are able to control them as we did years ago.
The problem of the Middle East is precisely that, and the way to meet it is not to send in troops here and there in an endeavour to settle things on the basis of

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keeping the people from succeeding in their national aspirations. It is easy to talk about people being murdered and about dictatorships or governments being overthrown. How are dictatorships to be overthrown other than by force? It just happens that way. If the forces which overthrow the dictatorship are friendly to one, then one does not mind, but if it is a force which one does not like, one strongly opposes it.
A moral issue which we have to face sooner or later is that of who has the right of the possession of the land of the Middle East and the oil contained in it? It is true that the oil is of international value and that it is of no value to those countries unless they can sell it. However, what right have we to insist on having control for all time? Sooner or later the oil countries will be able to sell their oil at what market price they can get and, although it may be difficult for them, sooner or later they will be in control of the oilfields. We might as well recognise that situation and lead and train the Arab peoples towards it so that they treat us in a friendly way. That is better than trying to suppress their national aspirations.
It is true that national aspirations break out in all sorts of ways which we do not like, but that is not altogether the fault of the people concerned. If people are kept under and allowed to remain illiterate, and if we fail to give them a share in the world's goods, especially when they see so much of the world's goods coming from their own country, it is understandable that their reactions should not be entirely friendly but should take the violent form which we have seen.
The policy of intervention, whether in the Lebanon, or the intervention which we may be contemplating in Jordan, is wrong. The Americans are very much concerned not merely with the Lebanon—because if they had been concerned merely with the Lebanon they would have gone in before—but with Iraq and, because of the events in Iraq, the possible events in Jordan and the cumulative effect on Saudi Arabia. That is why the Americans intervened.
America is especially interested in what happens in Saudi Arabia because, with a pro-Nasser country on one side and with Egypt on the other, the Saudi Arabian position will become very difficult for the
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Americans. It will not in the least surprise me if an appeal for help comes from Jordan. The Americans will answer it, but I hope that we do not. The Americans' bridgehead in the Lebanon—and it is nothing more than a bridgehead—will be used to maintain and protect what America rightly or wrongly believes to be her vital and legitimate interests. Presumably, we shall be concerned in Bahrain and so on to see that our forces are sufficiently strengthened so that nothing can go wrong there.
All this is in the sacred name of oil. Oil is vital to the world, but in future there will be two ways of getting it. One will be with the consent of the people of the country from where the oil comes, and the other will be by using force to hold down the people while we extract the oil. The latter method is wrong and is bound to fail.
We need a reorientation of policy for the Middle East. We must learn to see what the aspirations of the people are, and we must encourage them, instead of sitting on them and setting up puppet kings and dictators. We must see that national aspirations are given effect and we must encourage the people of the Middle East in the development of their countries. We must do what we can to assist them. If we do that we may have a peaceful Middle East, which is content to help us and to see that we get the oil we need. I believe this factor to be vital. If we work the other way we shall be starting up forces which, before very long, will be far beyond our control.
7.30 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Southall (Mr. Pargiter) in his essay on what should be the ethical approach to this matter. I will just say this to him: surely, whatever our ethics may be in these matters, the one event which must have shocked our consciences was the brutal murder of our friends in Iraq during the last few days.
Before the hon. Member speaks again about these puppet dictators, let him consider how independent of this country Nuri-es-Said was, and how independent was the King. Let him also consider how much that administration has done for the people of Iraq. Let him ponder a few of these things before he and some of his hon. Friends hold up, as the greatest evil

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that has befallen the world in the last few years, the landing of American forces in the Lebanon at the behest of that State.
The speeches of some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite this afternoon—and especially that of the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman)—seemed to be based on the extraordinary illusion that somewhere in the Middle East today there are democratic organisations which are longing to take over and establish normal democratic power as we in Western Europe know it. We were told by the hon. Member for Coventry, East that he liked to believe that he was on the side of the seizers of power—the captains and the colonels. He seemed to have an almost Germanic admiration for these characters who have sprung forward and upset so much of the Middle Eastern peace.
As the hon. Member for Southall said, what the Middle East desires above all else is peace. The problem of Arab unity will be extremely difficult to solve except through a dictatorship, which, at the moment, would be the dictatorship of Colonel Nasser, but the real problem of the Middle East is poverty. The best use of resources such as water can be ensured only by the maintenance of peace.
One of the most remarkable statements which has been made on the crisis in the last few days is that of the Prime Minister of the Sudan, himself a Mohammedan, who said that the landing of American troops yesterday was by far the greatest contribution to Middle Eastern stability that had been made in the last two years. If hon. and right hon. Members opposite will ponder these words they will see that they are of some significance.
It is also of some significance to consider what Arab unity means, and how it can be achieved. The Arab unity which Colonel Nasser sets out to achieve is one of a dictatorship based on Cairo. No one knows that better than the people in the Sudan, those who are opposed to Communism in Damascus, and many of the Druses of the Lebanon. Let the Leader of the Opposition recalibrate his mental process as to the facts of the Middle East before he gives us any more wishy-washy talk about backing Arab unity. At the moment backing Arab unity means backing General Gamal Abdel Nasser.
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What this country set out to do, both under this Government and under the party opposite when it was in office, was to build up the wealth of the people of the Middle East. That should remain our intention—but to build up that wealth means that peace must be maintained.
The action taken by the Americans, backed up by our Government, was quite right. One or two Liberal speakers this afternoon, and the Manchester Guardian in its apoplectic leader this morning, suggested that this was the end, but how much worse it would have been if nothing had been done. How much worse it would have been if, as my right hon. Friend said this afternoon, this massive infiltration which started after the assassination of the Iraqi leaders had gone on. How much more terrible would the situation in the Middle East have been then.
There are certain things which we should do. It is absolutely necessary to protect our allies and friends, and I congratulate the Government upon the movements they have made and the forces of troops which they have sent into the Gulf for that purpose. It is absolutely right that we should reinforce Aden, and I also think that we should be prepared to go to the help of our friends in Jordan if they should request our help.
This afternoon the hon. Member for Coventry, East spoke of the necessity of protecting the position of Israel. I agree with that, but there is only one way in which Israel can be protected in the long term; that is by the maintenance of the State of Jordan. Once that goes it is inevitable that Israel will be in danger of being wiped out by the United Arab Republic, and therefore just as inevitable that, prior to that happening, Israel will launch out in attack. We should therefore be prepared to help our friends in the Gulf, in Jordan and in Aden.
Certain other things should also be done. This is the moment when it would not be impossible, with the presence of American forces on the Continent of Asia, to get together with our friends and consider the various problems, especially those concerning the waters of Africa. This might not be an inappropriate moment to ask the Sudanese, Ethiopian and East African Governments to meet with us and talk about the Nile. It would

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not be an inappropriate moment, through the governors of the Aden Protectorate and the southern regions of Saudi Arabia, to discuss with that kingdom the question of the Yemen, and of Russian infiltration into that area. It would not be an inappropriate moment to get together with our other friends in this part of the world and produce a policy to defend our mutual interests.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) said, in a remarkable speech, the interests concerned here are not merely ours but those of the people of the Middle East. Those interests lie in the maintenance of peace and progress through our help, finance and guidance. Hon. Members opposite who speak about British imperialism in the Middle East are merely taking a page from the book of Colonel Nasser and the other anti-Western imperialists.
Without our continued assistance all that can happen in the Middle East is the establishment of a series of military dictatorships, balanced by mob rule—dictatorships led by a new brand of captain, colonel or lieutenant-colonel, who will doubtless be admired by the hon. Member for Coventry, East. They will take power, and when they take power they will not be friends of Arab nationalism, or of anyone but themselves. They may well be agents of Russia, bent upon the destruction of the world.
7.40 p.m.
Mr. R. W. Sorensen: In some measure at least there is agreement among hon. Members on both sides of the House that at present in the Middle East we are seeing the resurgence of what is sometimes called Arab nationalism. In fact, that term is somewhat misleading and a misnomer, because it is something much more than a mere resurgence of nationalism. There are a number of Arab nations and we should be under no illusion about the existence of those nations, arising as they did after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. That is something which I am certain we must appreciate fully if we are to understand what is taking place in the Middle East at present. Whether we call this phenomenon "Arabism" or "racialism", or whatever we call it, there it is. Those of us who have been to any part of the Middle East must have been struck by
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the fact that beneath the discontent and criticism which may exist in many of these Arab communities there is this one single, cohesive uniting factor, a new sense of Arab unity.
One finds pictures of Colonel Nasser in many parts of the Middle East, as I found them in the Yemen. I believe that they are displayed as a symbol of this emotional unity to which I have referred. There are indeed criticisms of Colonel Nasser along with the acceptance of the fact that he is the external symbol of the aspirations of the Arab peoples. One understands that. I submit that we must make allowances to some extent for many of the Arabist extravagances taking place at present; but that is not to condone the murders and assassinations which have recently taken place and those which will doubtless occur in the days and weeks ahead. One condemns them completely without any reservation. But underneath all these extravagances and dramatic and melodramatic upheavals and distortions of emotion there is this unity.
I should have thought that the Americans would have appreciated that there is a certain affinity between what happened in their country and what is taking place in the Middle East. What is taking place there is the repudiation of real or imaginary external domination, which is precisely what the Americans did in their War of Independence. Actually or otherwise the American settlers then believed that they were dominated by a distant Power. They rebelled and successfully repudiated that supposed domination. The same sort of thing is happening in the Middle East, and so there is that underlying bond or affinity.
One must notice also that there are attempts to displace the monarchies—honourable as they may be in many respects—in favour of republics. Here again, there is a bond or affinity between what is taking place in that part of the world and American history. The American settlers repudiated our monarchy which was for some time their monarchy. Out of that repudiation and their successful War of Independence emerged the American Republic. It there is such an affinity between the Americans and American history and what is happening in the Middle East, one might ask why it is that the

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Americans should take the action which they are taking.
One must recognise that there is a good deal of severe but distorted anti-Western sentiment in the Middle East, as indeed, at one time, there was in India and Pakistan, which also was fused with the aspiration for independence. Fortunately, in that part of the world it has been erased. Now we find little anti-Western, or at least anti-British, sentiment among the people of India and Pakistan. They have come to realise that it was merely a fortuitous association, and so, I think, it will be in the Middle East. In the course of time, the present anti-Westernism will disappear. I do not think it is fundamental to what the people there desire.
Mr. F. M. Bennett: I wonder how the hon. Member can possibly draw a parallel between the Americans getting rid of a monarchy in favour of a democracy and what is happening in the Middle East, where monarchs are being replaced by military dictatorships. I cannot see the constitutional parallel.
Mr. Sorensen: The parallel is that monarchs are being displaced in the same way as the Americans displaced the British Monarchy which, until their War of Independence, they accepted. It is true that the Middle Eastern monarchs may be replaced by dictatorships.
Mr. Bennett: They have been.
Mr. Sorensen: That does not alter my argument. The repudiation of monarchy in favour of some other form of government is a parallel. I do not go further than that; I say that there is this bond of similarity or affinity.
I ask myself, and I pose the question to the House, why is it that the Americans should intervene, despite this bond of similarity or affinity? I think that their motives are mixed, as are the motives of us all, for in this issue I do not believe it is purely or predominantly the moral and ethical factor which should decide their attitude or indeed our own. The ethical factor is present, but so are the factors of economics and expediency. One part of the motive which induces the Americans to intervene is a genuine moral zeal which compels them to intervene in
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the hope that they will be able to prevent what they believe to be a great Communist menace to mankind from spreading into that part of the world.
I am perfectly certain that American people may be endorsing the intervention of their country in this way because they believe that what is taking place in the Middle East is the result of Russian Communism machinations and infiltration. No one denies that wherever there is trouble and difficulty Russian Communism intervenes to try to exploit the situation. But the Russians are not peculiar in that respect. We have done the same thing in our history and so have other countries. We cannot therefore blame the Russians. It is part of power politics. On the other hand, I maintain strongly that the sooner the Americans can get rid of the assumption that wherever there is a disturbance, it is due to Russian intrigue and machinations, the better it will be.
I am certain that what is taking place in the Middle East is due basically to this undeniable fact of Arab resurgence and that even if the Russians had not tried to fish in troubled waters, the waters would still have been troubled. There have been great upheavals in the past, mighty upheavals among all kinds of people, long before Russian Communism was known; and, although undoubtedly Russian Communism will try to exploit the situation, let us be clear that the basic reason for this upsurgence is much the same as that which caused the upsurgence in the sub-Continent of India, and the upsurgence which, to a greater or less degree, is taking place in Africa and other parts of the world. It is the emergence of whole communities of people who are learning to stand on their own feet and trying to work out their own salvation. They will make many mistakes—they are making mistakes now—but, basically, that is the reason for what is happening.
If we look back at the example of India we can see how many of the arguments which we are adducing today were adduced in those days. Often we lectured the Indians—on the assumption that we knew what was best for them—that they could not manage their own affairs because most of them were illiterate and inexperienced, and because we thought that they must look to us for guidance. We did that sincerely, and

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no doubt there was some substance in our contentions. We are doing the same thing today with as much irrelevance as we did then, because these people are determined to work out their own salvation, to make their own mistakes and, in so doing, to find out at last what it is they ought to do, and how they can avoid repeating their mistakes in the future.
In a way, Russians and Communists are anxious that we should intervene in the Middle East at the present time, because they would then be able to exploit that action in the whole of the Asian world. They want us to intervene so that they can turn to the Asian world, part of which is much more sympathetic to us than it was some years ago, and say, "Here, after all, is British imperialism again". I do not say, of course, that I agree with them. I cannot agree with them, for one reason because I know that their criticisms are often insincere. One has only to point to Russian actions in Hungary, or Poland, or the satellite States to expose the insincerity and inconsistency of their criticism. That does not alter what I have pointed out. We can see the matter from their standpoint, and we know that they would direct the attention of the rest of the world to us and say, "Here is exactly what we said about these Europeans. They are intervening because their political case is so weak."
I believe our political case is very strong. We have made great mistakes, many of them to our own discredit, but there is a great deal of which we can be justly proud. For example, we can recognise the part that Britain played when the Ottoman Empire collapsed and the new Turkish Republic arose along with the Arab nations. We may claim that we gave both Turks and Arabs much assistance, although perhaps not as much as we could have done. That does not alter the point that the Communists and Russians are anxious that we should intervene so that they can use our action to demonstrate their spurious claim that Britain and America are intent on exploiting the whole Asian world because our political case is weak, and, so they claim, because we have not as much to offer Asia as Russian Communism has.
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I beg the Government to consider that point very seriously indeed. Let them look further ahead than the possible military success that might be achieved. In regard to the Suez campaign there was no doubt that Israel, France and Britain together could have succeeded militarily in occupying the whole of the Suez Canal zone. Our combined military power and resources were infinitely greater than those of the Egyptians. Unfortunately, those who endorsed that campaign at that time did not see further ahead. They did not measure the repercussions in the whole of the East.
Hon. Members on both sides, in their contacts with India, Pakistan and other countries, surely know full well how powerful is that fact. We are now friends with India and Pakistan and they are our co-partners in the Commonwealth. We are proud that those countries are with us in the Commonwealth. We should not do anything to drive them out of it or make them suspicious of our motives so that they undervalue the nature and significance of the Commonwealth. If we intervened and involved ourselves in a whole series of military commitments, it would be playing into the hands of those in the Far East, including India and Pakistan, who want to detach those countries from the Commonwealth.
It is not enough that we should warn the Government of the day and point Out the perilous path upon which they may be going; it is also necessary to ask, from the practical point of view, whether we could bear the heavy financial burdens which are implicit in our intervention. Some hon. Members may feel the need to impress the rest of the world with our strength, but we have enough on our hands already, what with Cyprus, Malta, etc. If we were to intervene on a large scale in the Middle East it would mean in the long run that we should bear a burden which would prevent the achievement of many of the economic advances we desire. I believe that supporters of the Government are sincere in believing that we must make a show of military strength to impress the world, including the Middle East and the Far East, but I wish they would size up the implications in terms of finance and economic strain and all that they will mean to this country, as well as in the

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frustration of our hopes of economic reconstruction in the interests of a happy and healthy country.
We must give a lead in the opposite direction. Let me sum up what I think should be our policy. We must do all we can to avoid military involvement in the Middle East, whatever spurious arguments may be advanced. The alternative dangers are far too great in the long run. We must help the Arab peoples in the Middle East to work through their own errors and find out their own mistakes. They are apt to assume that when they have got rid of European domination all will be well.
I found the assumption in the Middle East and in the Yemen that all their troubles were due to colonialism. The assumption hardly deserves examination. The Yemen and other Arab countries are poor and stagnating, not because of colonialism; although that is the assumption made by many Middle East people. They think that their poverty, wretchedness, illiteracy and general economic stagnation are entirely due in some strange way to Western exploitation. This may have played its part, but it is not the basic cause. Those people will never realise the basic cause until they themselves have complete responsibility to face the facts as they are, just as India and Pakistan are now facing facts which they were inclined to evade in the days when we dominated those countries. So it is with the Middle East.
We must encourage these countries to stand alone. We must help the Arab world, in a friendly and not sour fashion. In due course it will discover many of those facts which today it does not recognise. Further than that, we must take the initiative so as to bring an increasing amount of Arab support to our side. We should be imaginative enough in respect of the Middle East to go out of our way to offer political and economic advantages. We should offer to strike bargains. This is not a sordid proposal but a matter of hard fact.
We could say to the Arab people, "Allow us to buy your oil. We recognise your right if you want to nationalise it. Let us strike this bargain. You guarantee the oil to us and we will guarantee to you no interference in nationalisation or in any other develop-
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ment of your economic resources." We should try to get the Arabs to recognise that Israel has come to stay and we, on our part, should do all we could economically to help the Arabs to build up their new world.
Politically, we could say to countries in the Arab world, "We recognise that you have the intrinsic right to govern yourselves. If you desire to join with any other country we shall not stand in your way." Let this be done as an honest bargain, at the same time appreciating the significance of Arab resurgence as a part of the awakening of the human race. Then, I believe, in due course, we shall find a different response from the Arab world in place of the enmity so virulent at the present time.
7.59 p.m.
Mr. Patrick Maitland: I listened to the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) for about twenty minutes, and I am still not clear about what he would like us to do, except to "let it rip". He identified, as other hon. Members have done on his side, the great resurgence of Arab nationalism—I am not sure what that means—with the rebels in Iraq, but so far as I could make out that is all that the hon. Gentleman has done. He suggested that we should give economic aid to Iraq, which, of course, we have been doing extensively.
The formal issue that we are trying to consider in the debate on the Adjournment today is whether, and how, we should act against what is known as internal aggression. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, in what, I believe, was one of the finest speeches of his career, said this afternoon that that is the critical and essential question that we must face, and I only look forward to a further speech by him which will tell us, no doubt after consultation with the United States, how he suggests that we should face it. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition says, on the contrary, that we should beware of doing anything about internal aggression, in case we compromise our position with regard to the Russians in Eastern Europe.
The real issue, as distinct from the formal issue, is how we should advance our own interests with due respect for what everybody recognises to be a movement towards pan-Arabism, although not

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everybody identifies its leaders quite correctly. The Secretary of State made a point of saying that we have no quarrel with nationalism. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said that we must come to terms with pan-Arabism.
In addition to the real and the formal issues, there is a practical issue, which is how we can advance our own interests and, simultaneously, secure friendly governments that have popular backing. The presentation of these issues seems to me to call for some study of our overall objectives. Here I must say that I agree with much that has been said on both sides of the House today, when the question has been posed: what are the Americans after, and what are we after? If the action in the Lebanon now is merely a kind of ad hoc expedient I would join in deploring it, but I believe that it can form part of a serious policy to restore our own interests, and that our own interests are really three in number.
First, there is the free flow of oil. There is no division in the House about that. But a glib argument used this evening from the other side of the House suggested that all the countries in the Middle East will always want to sell us their oil, no matter what the colour of the régime. The suggestion is that with these pipelines to the sea, they will necessarily, and always, want to sell it to us, because there is no one else to whom they can sell it.
I do not believe that that is correct. The Soviet Union is importing oil from Roumania at the present time. Is there any reason to suppose that if these Arab countries fell under Soviet control they would not export their oil everywhere but to the free world—
Mr. Emrys Hughes rose—
Mr. Maitland: No, I shall not give way.
We have a second interest; that of air communication through the Middle East. One of the critical main trunk air routes of the entire Commonwealth of Nations—a grouping of some 660 million people, the vast majority of them freely governed by a democratic system where, for the most part, justice prevails—is an air route going slap through the Middle
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East and, indeed, through Iraq. The maintenance of free air transit through the Middle East is a critical and vital interest of this country and of the Commonwealth.
We have a third interest. It is the security of the land approaches to the Mediterranean, to Africa and to the Indian Ocean. If it is objected that we have no need for some cordon sanitaire, no need for some strategic elbow room or grouping of buffer States, at any rate the Russians find such a need in Eastern Europe. They are nothing if not realists. If the Russians find that it is necessary for their security to preserve a grouping of buffer States in Eastern Europe, then we have at least as good an argument, in ordinary terms of power, to claim that we have an interest in the Middle East remaining outside of the Soviet orbit—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: A fellow traveller.
Mr. Maitland: These three interests are in danger from several sides. They are threatened by this series of Egyptian plots, of which we had a list this afternoon—Egyptian plots in Libya, Egyptian plots in the Lebanon, Egyptian plots in Ethiopia, Egyptian pressure upon the Sudan, Egyptian plots in the Aden Protectorate, Egyptian plots in Iraq, Egyptian plots in Jordan. These are the threats—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: What is this?
Mr. Maitland: Secondly, our interests are threatened by the Soviet patronage of Arab nationalism in a way that seeks to set that nationalism against the Jews and, indeed, to exploit the antagonism between the two races. Those are the two dangers to our interests—
Mr. Harold Davies: We have done a bit of that in Cyprus.
Mr. Maitland: We have an interest to see that we have sufficiently stable and independent Arab régimes in order that our own interests are respected, and also in order that those régimes can make peace with Israel. Régimes that are the product of some coup d'état, régimes that depend on revenge and bloodshed in the first place, for their creation, are not likely to have such a basis in widespread public support that they can, in fact, make peace with Israel.

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It has been argued tonight that a grouping of Arab states that owes its origin to Egyptian leadership and plots is likely to make peace with Israel. I do not think that there is anything to suggest that they are particularly willing to make peace. On the contrary, we have had diatribe after diatribe, through the Egyptian radio and from Egyptian leaders, attacking Israel, morning, noon and night. There is nothing to suggest that a grouping of Arab nations, headed and fostered by Egypt, is one that would be willing to make peace with Israel; nothing to suggest that a grouping of Arab nations fostered and led by Egypt against Israel would suddenly turn right round and make a settlement with her.
The suggestion has run through a number of speeches from the other side of the House tonight that, somehow or other, only the Egyptian régime is the authentic sponsor of the pan-Arab nationalist upsurge. Are we to say that the Government of Libya are not just as Arab and enthusiastic for Arab unity as are the Government of Egypt? Are we to say that the Government of the Lebanon—the most enlightened of the lot—is not just as enthusiastic for Arab unity as the Government in Cairo? Are we to say that the successive Governments of Amman in Jordan have not been just as keen and ambitious for that Arab unity as are the Government of the Valley of the Nile; or the Government of Nuri-es-Said not just as keen, imaginative and enthusiastic in these plans, aspirations and hopes for Arab unity as the junta headed by Colonel Nasser?
As a matter of fact, the Governments of Jordan and Iraq are the two, throughout the Middle East, that are most deeply committed, both in history and sentiment, to the whole cause of Arab unity. As anyone who knows the Middle East knows very well, the Arabs do not even regard the Egyptians as proper Arabs. From the mountains of Anatolia, where there are, here and there, a few Arabs, right to the Persian Gulf, it is normal to despise the Egyptians as being either only half-Arab or not even true Arab at all; and to look rather to the Royal House of the Hashemite Kings of Jordan and Iraq as the proper, authentic, out-of-the-desert sponsors of Arab nationalism and union—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Back to Moses.
Mr. Maitland: Not only that, but since the war, the Governments of Jordan and Iraq, whichever party has been in office in those countries are the two Governments that have consistently sought to get a grouping of Arab states that would, in fact, be united. The "Fertile Crescent" dream of uniting Syria, Iraq and Jordan to create one Arab federation reaching from the Mediterranean to the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea has activated all the Governments of Iraq and Jordan in turn since the war. It is an aspiration that still has much support in Syria itself as well as in the Lebanon. There is the standard, as I see it, of Arab union. It is not to be found simply in the negative, Nazi-like Jew-baiting that comes from Cairo Radio, lauded so vigorously by the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), who reminded me of nothing so much as a Hitler jugend speaker.
Mr. Harold Davies: That is basically unfair, and the hon. Member knows it.
Mr. Maitland: What is perfectly clear is that Syria and Egypt have been openly hostile to Israel from the first and have never stopped sending infiltrators across the Israeli Border. Iraq has not been doing that. [An HON. MEMBER: "Jordan?"] No, Jordan has not, but Syria and Egypt have. Syria and Egypt are hostile to peace in the Middle East and Iraq and Jordan are not.
The question we have to consider is in principle whether we should support the American action and, secondly, whether we should be ready to help Jordan or the Iraqi loyalists to suppress our enemies and re-establish constitutional government. I suggest that in supporting the Government of Jordan, if we are invited to do so, and supporting the loyalists of Iraq, if we are also invited to do so, we shall in fact be aligning ourselves with the main current of enthusiasm among the Arab people for Arab union. We would be aligning ourselves with a dream, a real and vivid dream they have had for twenty years, of forming a union of the Fertile Crescent.
The Leader of the Opposition said that we should not on any account allow ourselves to do that or to get involved in intervention to resist internal aggression. His first reason was that if we did so we should justify Russia doing the same in

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Eastern Europe. But Russia has been doing it for twenty years. She does not need any justification from action taken by us. She is not in the least concerned about that and is not likely to be deterred by the moral reprobation of others.
The Leader of the Opposition gave a second reason. He said that we should not go in for this action because it was not explicitly covered by Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. He said that Article did not mean that we should be willing or ready to help allies to resist internal aggression. He said the Article was only devised to resist external aggression. The question is whether the framers of the Charter at the time it was framed had in mind real aggression or not. The question is whether those who accepted the Charter at the time had real aggression in mind or not. Merely to say that because Article 51 does not specify internal aggression therefore it is excluded is not by any means a conclusive argument. I might remind the right hon. Gentleman that:
"It is the spirit which giveth life and the letter that killeth."
In any event if he is to insist on this distinction between internal and external oppression and to say that the United Nations Charter is framed to meet one situation and not another he is saying in effect that the Charter is out of date and ignoring the reality of this new technique of subversion.
Finally, he said that if we intervened in the way that has been suggested it would have the opposite effect from the one we hoped; it would lead lo hostility, to misunderstanding, to hatred, to our being condemned throughout the Middle East. When the Americans withdrew they would leave behind them not friends but enemies. I believe that is not correct. I believe from my experience in the Middle East that the Arabs respect force. The people they despise are those who have not got the courage to use it.
Mr. J. Paton: That is usually applied to Russia.
Mr. Maitland: There as many people all over the Middle East, and, indeed, in South-East Asia as my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) said, who are only waiting for a sign that the free world is prepared at last to act. Indeed, it is not uninstruc-
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tive to observe the reception which the Americans have had in their first few days in the Lebanon. No one can say that their arrival so far has elicited great hostility; rather the contrary.
Mr. Paton: Coca-cola?
Mr. Maitland: I shall conclude by reverting to a statement on policy towards the Middle East which was made by the Prime Minister when, as Foreign Secretary, he wound up a debate in the House on 12th December, 1955. It was a speech which at the time was not, I think, fully appreciated partly because it was not understood. I believe our purposes should now be as he stated them then in these terms:
"It is not now a case of the authority of one people over another. The time for that has gone, although it had its place in the history of mankind. The time is now one for partnership and partnership is, after all, what the British people are offering to the world. Just as the old British colonial and imperial system is passing to the concept of Commonwealth, so the Commonwealth idea is extending beyond those countries who owe it formal allegiance and it may well be that it is the main rôle of the British people, with the active help and sympathy of our American friends, to be leaders in this concept. It is the ideal of a new society of peoples of all races and creeds held together by a common love of freedom and the spiritual as well as the material values and determination to preserve them."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th December, 1955; Vol. 547, c. 842.]
The final words of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, speaking on that occasion as Foreign Secretary, were "determination to preserve them." We can have the highest ideals in our foreign policy, and they can be dissipated and evaporate if we do not show determination to preserve them.
8.17 p.m.
Mr. Harold Davies: I shall try to be brief, succinct and logical. I was amazed at some of the propositions which the hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. Patrick Maitland) deigned to put before an adult audience such as he should at least expect in the British House of Commons. I would recommend to the hon. Member that he look up the history of British Governments in dividing people. I had to interrupt him to say that if he looked at the history of Cyprus he might see whether the tragedy of the Greeks and the Turks might not be due to intervention on our part there. They had lived for generations side by side until

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we asked for Cyprus as a base, instead of asking for a base on Cyprus.
Secondly, I would recommend the hon. Member that he should go back to the days of Lawrence, whom the Foreign Office used to worship, and judge St. John Philby's argument on the Middle East. He will find that Philby was right when Lawrence was wrong. Far from the British democratic system being so honest in its dealings with the Middle East, we were pouring money out of the British Foreign Office into Hedjaz and out of the India Office into another group in the Yemen to keep them fighting one against the other to serve the ulterior motive of imperialism and control in the Middle East at that time. It is no good hon. Members opposite shaking their heads; that is an historic fact.
We are speaking today for the British people, and I wish that the Conservative Government would appreciate it. I speak humbly and without being facetious, and I hope that the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister, whether they agree with me or not, will realise that I appreciate the responsibility that falls on their shoulders at this difficult transitional period in our history. That will not prevent me from speaking straight. The responsibility which the Government and the House of Commons have tonight is to speak for the British people.
I accused the Government yesterday—it may be that according to some people I was too precipitous—of acting like puppets. Twice in our recent history we have accepted the judgment of the United States before at least giving time to the Security Council to reach a decision. Once was in Korea. Hon. Members on this side of the House went into the Lobby on the Korean issue. A decision was taken afterwards. Today, again, the initiative has been taken by the United States.
Mr. Patrick Maitland rose—
Mr. Davies: The hon. Member gave way to no one and I will not give way to him. That is fair enough. The Tories can take some of their own medicine.
Mr. Maitland: The hon. Member did not try to intervene in my speech. I would have given way to him.
Mr. Davies: Here, again, the British people can be landed in a most difficult position. I sincerely hoped that my party would go into the Lobby tonight against the Conservative Party. I am speaking now for myself and not for my party, but I take responsibility for my own words. The reaction of our party should instinctively be against supporting the American troop movements into the Middle East when they are made without at least the chance of constructive discussion in the Security Council.
I have listened to nearly all the debate, and one question which has been put, facetiously, is: what do we expect from the United Nations? Hon. Members opposite say that the United Nations do nothing. Let me give two examples. I have spoken against, campaigned against, voted against, and divided the House against the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation. The Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East is the United Nations organisation in the Pacific. Its reports show where its constructive work has been continuously frustrated by the military purposes of the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation and the military designs of the great Powers.
Hon. Members opposite ask us for constructive plans for the Middle East. The Library of the House of Commons is bulging with constructive plans for the Middle East. If hon. Members do not know about them, it is time they looked them up. I will mention one. The International Bank for Reconstruction and Development has one, and I took the trouble to read it last night. It made a report on the Middle East. This is an excellent job, with American money behind it—and I am not denigrating it because of that. It made a constructive suggestion for the land between the two rivers, the Tigris and the Euphrates, the old Mesopotamia.
What has been done about it? Nothing—except the struggle for bases and for airfields and the struggle to put military machines there. I agree with the hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. H. Fraser), who made the point that poverty is the prime problem in that area. In the name of heaven, what will this action do to help deal with poverty?
I come to the end of my speech, which, I hope, has been short, logical and succinct. Has the Conservative Party asked itself these questions: has it got its

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petrol ration books ready? Has it considered the economic and industrial position which would result if we had a major campaign in the Middle East? Has it considered that Colonel Nasser could again close the Suez Canal? Is this cutting Nasser down to size? Fools!
"… forgive them: for they know not what they do."
They are blowing up Nasser to the size of a giant.
You—I beg your pardon, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I apologise, for I know that you would not dream of doing such a thing; you have much more sense than that. The Conservative Party jumps very quickly into a military position, and it is the party responsible for blowing up Colonel Nasser in the Middle East. I appeal to the party opposite, which has a terrible responsibility on its shoulders today, to bring a steadying influence to bear on the United States. Heaven knows, she needs it.
If the party in power here today had the courage, I believe that it could steady the Americans in the Middle East. It may be that we should then do something constructive, and the first constructive step would be to call Russia into a Middle East conference, as should have been done during the last five years.
I have kept to my time-table, and I hope that the House appreciates that I have given a chance to two other hon. Members to take part in the debate.
8.27 p.m.
Mr. Patrick Wall: I tried to follow the speech—I am glad to say, very short speech—of the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies), but I failed to do so. What I gleaned from his speech was that when Britain had a certain position in the world, and somebody else wanted it, we should give it up. He said that we should channel everything through the United Nations and use the United Nations for developing the land between the Tigris and the Euphrates. He said that nothing had been done there, implying that all that the West had done in Iraq was to spend money for military purposes.
I wish that the hon. Member had had the chance to accompany me when I visited that country not long ago and saw the amazing development and irrigation taking place between the two rivers—
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development which will see the population of Iraq double or treble in five or ten years. A large amount of money has been spent. I know that the hon. Member will agree that Iraq nearly alone, of all the Middle Eastern countries, has spent the wealth from her soil for the benefit of the people of the country. I therefore suggest that Iraq deserves our support as a State which is not yet truly democratic, but which is working towards democracy.
The hon. Member went on to say that we face grave danger of war in the Middle East and that, therefore, we should give in to Colonel Nasser. That is the only conclusion which I could draw from his remarks. I hope to deal with that a little later.
The current running through all the speeches from the Opposition benches today has been that we must come to terms with Arab nationalism. Hon. Members opposite put it to us that Arab nationalism is something like the nationalism that united all the small States in Italy or in Greece and created those nations. That, I suggest, is totally fallacious. The Arabs have never been united as a nation. As one of my hon. Friends has already said, the Arabs have never regarded the Egyptians as an Arab nation and never will. There is continual rivalry between Bagdad, Damascus, Cairo and all the Arab world.
Do hon. Members opposite really think that the people of Syria wish to be members of the United Arab Republic, or were consulted about it? A small group of politicians or the military in Damascus thought that it would be a good thing to have that union, and it came about. That is not democratic in any way. I do not say that democracy in the way that we know it is possible in any country in the Middle East today. One hopes that in future years they will grow towards our line of democratic thinking, but today that does not apply.
Why, then, it may be asked, has there been a success of what we call Arab nationalism? Why do the Arabs seem more united today than ever before? The reason, I suggest, is a simple one. Hitler was not very popular to start with, but when he had one success after another he became the figurehead of a resurgent Germany. That is what is happening to Nasser. He has managed to play off the East against the West and America

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against Britain. He has had success after success and is highly popular. The hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) said that he saw Nasser's picture throughout the Yemen and even in Aden. The reason is that he has been a success, and the Arab understands success and will follow it.
The central factor in the world since the Second World War has been the cold war. When I was educated in military matters, I was told to study what, in strategic terms, was known as the ground vital—the ground that we must have or must deny to the enemy or the ground that the enemy needs and must deny to us. I suggest that the ground vital in the world today is the Middle East, for two reasons. It is vital to the Soviet because, in the same way as North Africa was in the Second World War, it is the soft under-belly of the Soviet that is from the Western point of view should the calamity of a third world war ever occur.
It is the soft under-belly of the West from the Soviet viewpoint, because it is the source where most of the proved oil reserves of the world. It is the one place in the world where the Soviet could win the cold war without having to fight a third world war, if, by methods of subversion, propaganda and nationalism, call it what one will, they manage to get their hand on the tap and slowly turn it off so as to deny the West the oil from the Middle East.
It has been said before, but it bears repetition, that the requirements of Western Europe in oil are increasing year by year. Many people say that we need not worry because we can get it from America and from, say, Algeria or the newly-discovered fields in Nigeria; and atomic energy will take over in ten or fifteen years' time and we need not worry very much.
In 1955, the O.E.E.C. requirement of oil was 132 million coal equivalent tons. Ten years later, in 1965, the figure will have risen from 132 million to 250 million coal equivalent tons. That is allowing for an estimated 20 million tons of coal equivalent from atomic energy. In 1975—this is the striking figure—it is estimated that Western Europe's requirements of oil will go up to 360 million coal equivalent tons, in spite of the
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fact that atomic energy will then be supplying 150 million. My point is that in the foreseeable future Western Europe is dependent upon Middle East oil. If it is turned off, either slowly or rapidly, the wheels of industry in Western Europe cannot work for more than six months or, at the outside, in war economy terms, for a year.
I turn now to Colonel Nasser's views on these subjects. One hon. Member has referred to the fact that Colonel Nasser has written a book, "The Philosophy of the Revolution", from which I venture to give the House four brief quotations. In his book, Colonel Nasser says:
"When I attempt to analyse the components of our power I cannot help pointing out three principal forces of power … The first source is that we are a group of neighbouring peoples joined together with such spiritual and material bonds"—
that is what hon. Members opposite have been talking about Arab nationalism—
"as join any group of peoples."
The Mohammedans and the Arabs, the Egyptians being relations of the Arab people, have joined together and created the United Arab Republic. Why should we praise so much the United Arab Republic which is backed by the Soviet? An opposite Arab force has been created in the Federation of Iraq and Jordan. That is backed by the West.
Why must we assume, as from what we have heard in the House today it seems we must, that one is right but the other wrong? Why is the United Arab Republic representative of Arab nationalism, representative of all that is good in the soul of the Arab wanting to be free, and backed by the Russians, and right? Why, on the other hand, is the Federation of Iraq and Jordan wrong?
I have heard hon. Members on the other side allege that there are Middle Eastern countries with corrupt Governments, which are governed by semi-dictators who are puppet stooges. They referred to the Hashemite Kingdoms. Why should that Federation be wrong, especially when we compare the Federation with the United Arab Republic, and the way in which Iraq and Jordan have developed their economy to the good of their people with the poverty in which the Egyptian people live?
Mr. Bevan: I have no recollection that anybody on this side of the House has

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ever declared that the union of Iraq and Jordan was wrong. Indeed, I discussed it with Nuri-es-Said, in Bagdad.
Mr. Wall: I am delighted to hear the right hon. Gentleman's views, but he can read in HANSARD what he did not hear not long ago, when one of his hon. Friends on the back benches referred to "puppet kingdoms" and "puppet rulers". Obviously, he was referring to the Federation of Iraq and Jordan.
Colonel Nasser goes on to say:
"As for the second source, it is our territory itself and the position it has on the map of the world, that important strategic situation … the cross-roads … of the world."
This is a point which has not been made in this debate yet and I ask the attention of the House to this, because I think it is particularly important not only to this country but to the whole Commonwealth. A little later, Colonel Nasser says:
"If we direct our attention after that to the second circle, the circle of the continent of Africa, I would say, without exaggeration that we cannot even if we wish to, in any way stand aside from the sanguinary and dreadful struggle now razing in the heart of Africa between five million whites and two hundred million Africans."
I suggest that if not only Colonel Nasser's past successes but—let us face it—his present successes in the Middle East, if continued, will inflame anti-Western opinion throughout the Continent of Africa and that that might have enormous repercussions on the Horn of Africa, in East Africa and in Central Africa, and I suggest that hon. Members on both sides of the House should keep that in their minds when talking of negotiation with Colonel Nasser, because I believe that any continued success of Colonel Nasser may have repercussions on the Commonwealth which might be very tragic indeed.
The third source of power, says Colonel Nasser, is oil, but I shall not weary the House with that. I have already dealt with it to some extent. I think it is fairly obvious what is Colonel Nasser's dream. He dreams of establishing a Mohammedan empire based on oil, based on the Mohammedan religion, based on pan-Arabism. Some people have said in this House today that we should negotiate with Colonel Nasser. This was said yesterday in the Daily Herald. It said we should not attack
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Colonel Nasser, but try to come to an agreement with him.
Who would drive the better bargain with Colonel Nasser, the West or the Soviets? One thing which might result in an agreement between the Western world and Colonel Nasser would be if we said we agreed to the elimination of the State of Israel. I imagine that no one on the opposite side of the House would agree with that. In negotiation with Colonel Nasser the scales, weighed between the West and the Soviets, are weighed heavily on the side of the latter. Any attempt to match our bargaining power with that of the Soviets would be disastrous.
I end on a rather more constructive note. What action can we take? We must realise that Iraq is the linch pin of the Bagdad Pact and the stability of that pact from which economic and cultural developments have flowed in the Middle East which have been of far more importance than any military developments, and have been of inestimable value to the Middle East.
I believe, therefore, that, in honour bound, we must help our friends when asked to do so, be those friends in Jordan, Iraq or the Lebanon. One thing which should encourage the House is that we are now acting in concert with the Americans and the French—rather a different story from that of two years ago. I believe also that we should bring in the Commonwealth in our dealings with the Middle East and Africa. I am certain that the Commonwealth should be associated with any strategic force which we hold in Kenya or Aden. After all, the oil in the Middle East lubricates industry in the Commonwealth, as well as in Britain.
I take heart from the fact that now for the first time since the end of the Second World War we have a joint Middle Eastern policy with the United States. It is extremely important to back to the hilt the United States intervention in the Lebanon in the last two days. I believe that we are faced with a show-down in the Middle East. If Colonel Nasser wins in Iraq, and takes over the Arab Federation, the whole of the Arabian Peninsula will fall—the Persian Gulf, Aden, and the whole of that great sub-continent.
Colonel Nasser is the main danger that the Western world faces today, because

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of his success and because he has been used as a tool of the Soviets. The Soviets know how to use their stooges far better than does the Western world, and they have used him most successfully. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) was very cross with me the other day when I said that Colonel Nasser had been considerably helped by things which have been said from his side of the House. Those things leave doubt in the minds of our friends in the Arab world whether this country means to back her friends when it comes to a show-down.
At last, America, France and Britain are thinking along the same lines, and the whole of the British nation has now realised that Colonel Nasser is a supreme danger in the Middle East. The Opposition should ponder this very carefully, for they may well be held responsible for dividing the nation in the difficult months that lie ahead. They should ponder upon the possible result of that action, namely, the political suicide of right hon. and hon. Members opposite.
8.43 p.m.
Mr. Denis Healey: This has been an exceptionally valuable as well as an extremely good debate. It has been exceptionally valuable because, for once in our lives, we are discussing a major field of policy before the Government have actually taken any irrevocable decision in it. The Government, in particular, must pay great heed to what is said and has been said in the debate on both sides of the House, certainly if it is contemplating any action of such a nature as must demand a united nation in support of it.
One encouraging feature about the debate is that there has been, for once, a total unanimity of view on what Western aims and interests really are in the Middle East, namely to preserve access to the oil at a reasonable price and on reasonable terms, and secondly to reduce Soviet influence in the area to its minimum. But I am afraid that the debate has revealed that there is almost as big a gulf as ever between the two sides of the House on the means by which we can secure these interests.
I believe that the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) put his finger on the key to the whole situation when he quoted with approval, very rightly,
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the dictum of Lenin that Russian success would be assured if Russia could achieve an alliance between Soviet Communism and Asian nationalism. It seems to me that the real division in the House that has been revealed today is that most hon. Members opposite, though by no means all, believe that it is possible to beat an alliance of Russian Communism and Asian nationalism by resisting it, whereas we on this side of the House believe that it is not possible to beat such an alliance and therefore we must break it or prevent it from ever coming into existence. We can break that alliance only by convincing the nationalists in Asia, and above all the Arab nationalists in the Middle East, that we understand and sympathise with their fundamental aims.
Like most hon. Members in this House, I suppose, I have spent a lot of time in the last few years in discussing Middle Eastern problems with people who work in the area, either for the oil companies or for the Foreign Office, or who have served there in the Army, and I have yet to meet anyone actually working at the present time in the Middle East who believes that it is possible to beat Arab nationalism.
Everyone will agree, if questioned, that the only way by which the West can secure its interests in the Middle East is by, somehow or other, getting Arab nationalism on its side. The real tragedy of British foreign policy in the last twelve years is that we get involved every year or two in a predicament in which we seem to be inevitably compelled to take a decision which puts us in flat contradiction with the whole trend of Arab nationalism.
I believe that we are being pushed into such a position again today and that it is our duty to see that this time we do not fall into the trap, because if we fall into the trap again, we may well find that we have consolidated the alliance between Soviet Communism and Arab nationalism to such an extent that it becomes an absolutely invincible combination against us.
The first objection which is always made to me when I ask why we cannot identify ourselves with this new growing force in the Middle East is: "I wish we could, but we have to have diplomatic relations with the Governments that exist in those countries, and we cannot

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support revolutionaries against those Governments."
Of course, that is perfectly true; but this does not mean that if there is an internal movement to overthrow forces which have no basic survival power we should try to resist that internal movement by active intervention. This is really the issue at stake in the Middle East at this moment. First in the Lebanon and later in Iraq there have been internal movements against the existing régimes. In my opinion, we should take the opportunity to make terms with the forces which are now emerging as decisively powerful in those two countries and reconstruct a policy on a basis which has some long-term prospect of success.
Yet in fact, once again, we seem to be pushed by a combination of motives, some of which are highly honourable, like loyalty to old friends, into identifying ourselves not with the forces which every expert recognises are certain to be dominant in the area in the future, but with the forces that have no survival power whatever. This is not a question of the peoples against the pashas.
I am not prepared to say that I think the kind of régime which Colonel Nasser has is better than the kind of régime which Nuri-es-Said had. In many ways I think Nuri-es-Said did more for the people of Iraq than any other Arab ruler has done, but that is not the point. The point is that the kind of forces which Nuri-es-Said represented in the Middle East are dying, and if we tie ourselves to dying forces, our interests will collapse with the collapse of those forces.
Indeed we shall push all the dominant forces in the Middle East into the arms of our basic enemy the Soviet Union. There is no reason on earth why the Russians should find it easy to make an alliance with the forces of nationalism in the Middle East or anywhere else in the world; because we know, and we should be able to tell people in other countries, that nationalism is the major crime in the Soviet calendar, and the Russians have just been demonstrating this once again in their attitude towards the Polish and Yugoslav Communist Parties in Eastern Europe. There is no such alliance formally made as yet, even in the Middle East. Certainly the first step which Colonel Nasser—who, what-
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ever he is, is not a Communist—took when Syria joined the United Arab Republic was to make the Communist Party illegal in Syria, and the leader of the Communist Party had to fly to the Soviet Union.
It would be very unwise to take it for granted even that Colonel Nasser is on the Russian side irrevocably in diplomatic questions. Indeed all the evidence of the trend of Nasser's personal thinking, and of Egyptian policy since Nasser last visited Moscow, suggests that he is slowly drifting away from the Soviet orbit, and his recent visit to Tito was certainly not calculated to endear him to Mr. Khrushchev. Yet this is the very moment, when Arab nationalism is drifting slowly away from the Soviet Union, that the British and American Governments seem propelled by uncontrollable and irrational forces into pushing them back into Russia's arms.
What is really behind the revolutions in the Lebanon and in Iraq? The Foreign Secretary said today that he knows much better than the United Nations observers, that he has sources of intelligence on the help given by Syria which are far beyond those of the United Nations' team of 300 observers. I must say that one's confidence in the Foreign Secretary's intelligence sources in the Middle East have been somewhat shaken by the Government's complete surprise at the coup d'état in Iraq. Unless the Government can produce evidence other than statements made to it by President Chamoun, we shall be very sceptical about the claims of massive Syrian intervention in the Lebanon.
The people whom we know as leaders of the revolt in the Lebanon include persons who cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered as either Communist or pro-Communist, like Mr. Kamal Jumblatt, who for a long time was the darling of one section of the Foreign Office because he was one of the few genuinely non-Communist left-wingers in the whole of the Middle East. The fact is that Mr. Chamoun has not even got his own Christian community behind him, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, because the Christians in the Lebanon realise that the one thing which will lead to their ultimate downfall is identifying themselves with President Chamoun's personal demand as

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a Christian to continue his term of office indefinitely.
The same is equally true in Iraq. I had the honour to meet one of the leaders of the Iraq revolution at Lancaster House a few weeks ago when he was here as an official guest of Her Majesty's Government. Certainly Her Majesty's Government, who are so well informed on Middle East intelligence, did not, at any rate at that time, consider that he was a tool of the Soviet Union.
Although I do not personally know other leaders of the Iraq revolution, I must say that I was very impressed by the report from Istanbul in The Times today on the personalities now leading the Iraq revolution, which suggested that none of them could be considered a Soviet stooge and that many of them could be considered friends of Britain. It is worse than a tragedy, it is a crime, when by some process of diplomatic McCarthyism Mr. Cabot Lodge can get up in the United Nations and call these people, who are fundamentally capable of co-operating with the West, Communists. If a man like that is called a Communist for long enough, he will become one, and who can blame him?
The plain fact is that we have an opportunity in the Middle East to identify ourselves with the forces which have proved themselves in action, whether we like it or not and whether we approve of them or not, to be the decisive and dominating forces in that part of the world. We must adjust ourselves to their emergence in exactly the same way as we adjusted ourselves to the emergence of General de Gaulle in France. General de Gaulle came to power in France also as a result of a military coup d'état and that, rightly, did not prevent the Prime Minister seeking to establish good relations with him and seeking to build a basis for co-operation with him.
The really critical issue in the debate, as has been said by many other people, is whether we should compound what is a mistake which we have already made, in approving American entry into the Lebanon, by militarily intervening ourselves in Jordan to support of a Government which we know in our hearts has no survival power without permanent military backing by Britain on the spot.
Nobody will dispute the right and, indeed, the duty of the British Govern-
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ment to send troops into a foreign country if the lives of our nationals are at stake. It may well be that a situation may develop in some part of the Middle East, even in the next few days, in which such an intervention might be unavoidable. We hope that it will not. The real issue is whether the Government are planning to intervene with military force in Jordan where there are no British nationals to protect in any case.
British intervention in Jordan would be a disaster of the first magnitude. In the first place, we have no military obligations of any sort to the Jordan Government or State. The Jordan Government denounced their military treaty with us, and we accepted the denunciation, as the Foreign Secretary told us earlier today. In the second place, if we intervene in Jordan, we shall be intervening in a civil war in the Arab Federation. We have ourselves recognised the Federation, and the present King of Jordan now claims to have replaced the perhaps dead King of Iraq as the leader of the Federation. The Government's lawyers will tell them that we have no right to intervene in a civil war of that type unless we can prove foreign intervention on the other side, and of that there is no proof whatever.
Most important of all, so far the violent events in the Middle East in the last few weeks have not led to the loss of many British lives, although we all deeply deplore the death of a British civil servant in Bagdad the other day. Have the Government reflected on the possible repercussions in Iraq, where there are 2,000 British citizens without any local protection whatever, if they send military troops into Amman and identify themselves with the counterrevolution in the Arab Federation?
Are the Government prepared to defend those people, or will they treat their lives and their interests as cavalierly as they treated the lives and interests of the British citizens in Egypt at the time of the Government's intervention in Suez? Again, are the Government in a position to make up for the loss of oil which we shall most certainly suffer if we intervene ourselves directly and militarily in this matter? Above all, are they prepared to meet all the possible consequences of a Soviet reaction?
I saw on the tape this evening that the Russians have said that they will

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intervene to support the Government of Iraq in such a situation. To my mind what is even more dangerous is the possibility that the Russians would seize on Western military involvement in the Middle East as an excuse for massive military intervention in Eastern Europe, where they face problems essentially similar in nature to those which we face in the Middle East. It is for those reasons that I think that most hon. Members on this side of the House are convinced that a British military intervention to support a collapsing régime in the Middle East would be a disaster with irreparable consequences.
Her Majesty's Government must take note from this debate that that is the feeling on this side of the House. Many of my hon. and right hon. Friends have shown very great restraint in not wishing to press this matter to a vote at this stage. Many of us have done so because we feel that it is right that before an irreparable decision is taken the Government, the country and the world should be fully seized of the state of British opinion on the matter. I believe that if the Government act in the knowledge of the views of the Opposition they can save themselves and the world from a decision which might have catastrophic consequences.
9.1 p.m.
Mr. Aneurin Bevan: I have now lived long enough always to contemplate the arrival of midsummer with deep depression. It is an ironical fact that, whereas we ought to be looking forward to an uplifting of our spirits and some relaxation from arduous labours, as July, August and September come along we feel apprehension as to what might happen. In my lifetime these have proved to be the most deadly months of the year.
We find ourselves once more in the middle of a very serious crisis, and we do not know how far that crisis will deepen. The first steps have been taken and they might well prove irrevocable. It is quite easy to start off something of this sort, but it is not always as easy to stop it developing. As the old adage says, one can throw a stone into the pool, but one cannot control the ripples.
When I was sitting here, listening to most of the debate, my mind went back to the years immediately after the war
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when the then Labour Government had the responsibility for guiding the nation through some very troublesome years. The Prime Minister recently paid a visit to India, and he came back—so he told us—deeply impressed by the warmth of his reception there. He was probably all the more impressed because he was the first Conservative Prime Minister to visit India since the war. He was obviously deeply moved by the friendliness of his reception.
In 1945 we met a deep upsurge of nationalism in South-East Asia. We had to deal with a situation which was in many respects even more difficult than the one which is facing us today. We had been deeply committed in India for centuries; we had many interests there, and it was acknowledged on all sides—in India, in particular—that many people from Great Britain had given devoted service to the Indian people. There were all kinds of bonds linking us together, and all kinds of influences were at work trying to persuade us that we must at all costs continue the Imperial link with the South-East Asian continent. There was, as I said, very strong nationalism indeed.
We resisted those voices and we decided—it was a very difficult decision to make in some respects—that the only wise and statesmanlike course to pursue was the freely negotiated independence of India, of Pakistan and, later, of Ceylon. The result was that we have built up by that single act the strongest bulwark against the incursion of Communism in South-East Asia.
Mr. Healey: The only bulwark.
Mr. Bevan: We converted a bitter enemy into a warm friend.
I am not recalling this merely for the purpose of saying, "I told you so," or of flourishing political trophies; I want to make certain deductions from what I am saying and from my experience. If one negotiates a people's independence early enough, one enables the institutions of democracy to strike deep roots. But if one resists the arrival of independence too much, so that the struggle for independence must take on the form of civil war, then what might have been a movement for national independence becomes a movement for a social revolution. That, surely, is the lesson.

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In China, where independence was obtained only by a heavy civil war lasting for many years, the Communists took control. In India democratic institutions were established, as, indeed, they were also in Indonesia. Although in some places they are shallow-rooted, and sometimes still seem as if they may not be able to withstand all the storms, nevertheless I ask the House of Commons to read the lesson properly, that in these areas where imperial Governments were intelligent enough and deep-visioned enough to negotiate independence, not only have democratic institutions been established but also friendly relations with the old imperial Powers. That was the way in which we dealt with the nationalist movements in South-East Asia.
We have been making similar experiments with a considerable amount of success in Africa. We have negotiated the independence of Ghana, and although it has revealed some deficiencies they are by no means as many as they were in the days of Lord North. The institutions there are strong and withstanding the early years of the government of a new nation. We have the same thing in Nigeria. In other words, we have so far in this nation shown sufficient sagacity to be able to accommodate ourselves and our policies to the rise of nationalism in Africa and in South-East Asia. But we have not succeeded in doing that in anything like the same degree in the Middle East. That has been the main motif of this debate.
These nationalisms in the Middle East cannot be suppressed. We must adjust ourselves to them. They are not alien in origin; they are indigenous in origin. The Soviet Union is not responsible for stimulating the national ambitions of the Arab peoples. It may be seeking to benefit by them, but the author of them is not the Soviet Union. They are, in fact, spontaneous products of the historical situation now existing there; and, therefore, we have to accommodate ourselves to them.
One of the reasons why we are having these difficulties is because large sums of money coming from the West in the form of oil royalties are being sent there now in an increasing quantity, and are calling into existence a petty bourgeoisie
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with which the rulers will not share their power. That is what is the matter. The merchants, the educated classes of the sheikhdoms and of Iraq, and places like that, are not permitted to form normal constitutional Governments like they were elsewhere. They are therefore driven into revolt.
It has always been a principle, in fact it is written into the American Declaration of Independence, that if people are not permitted to affect the policies of their nations by normal constitutional methods and are not permitted to employ peaceful means of changing the policies of their Governments and affecting the laws of their land, there is no moral case against open rebellion. That was the lesson in this nation and in every Western nation. Therefore, the responsibility for revolt in some of these nations must rest squarely upon those Governments that have fought a rearguard action against progress all the time.
The situation is, in fact, intolerable. An expenditure of money upon opulent luxury in the middle of unendurable poverty cannot provide stability for the Middle East. We have never tried at all to solve this problem by the arts of diplomacy. My main charge against the Government is that they have always stood back until trouble has arisen and have tried to deal with it empirically. They have never tried to work out a policy for the Middle East. They have never sought to get the oil companies together to talk sense. They have never realised that there cannot be peace in the Middle East while there are poor non-oil States and opulent oil States.
Furthermore, the Government showed an extraordinary lack of acumen when they sought to divide the Arab States and to build what was called "a northern tier" by constructing the Bagdad Pact. That was the silliest creation in the history of diplomacy. It did, literally and figuratively, rest on sand. It could not possibly be of any military value at all. I have always held that view and expressed it, and now, of course, the Pact is practically dead. What it did was to make Egypt into a bitter enemy of the West.
We must recognise the facts. We shall never get our diplomacy right if we consider certain facts as too disreputable to notice. It is a fact that Egypt, being a poor country, Syria being a poor country

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and Jordan being a poor country, and being non-oil States, could not possibly live peacefully side by side with oil States sharing their religion and their history. Therefore, it was clear to anyone who paid any attention whatsoever to the Middle East that no peace would come to the Middle East until we provided a framework in which all the Arab peoples could find their place. That we have not done. In fact, we have sought, as has been said over and over again tonight, to divide the Arab peoples and to get our own way like that, although it was obvious to anybody who tried to read the signs that this could not permanently succeed.
What is our main interest? Our main interest—as has been said over and over again, and I say it only for the purpose of the continuity of my argument—is to get for Europe oil from the Middle East at a reasonable price. The lesson of Suez was that oil cannot be obtained peacefully, in sufficient quantity and smoothly from the Middle East without the ready co-operation not only of Middle Eastern Governments but of Middle Eastern peoples. We can have a friendly Government in Bagdad; we can have a friendly Government in Iran, in Kuwait or in Saudi Arabia, but, unless those Governments are not only friendly to us but rest upon the loyal support of their own people, we are not sure of the oil, because the capacities for sabotage are infinite.
We can, of course, as has already been mentioned by an hon. Gentleman opposite, hold down a modern nation by armed force. The Russians have shown that. The powers of coercion and intimidation at the disposal of a modern Government are such that civil revolt is no longer possible of success unless the Government are prepared to permit it. Russia has proved it, Salazar has proved it, Franco has proved it.
We could, therefore, establish by military force Governments in the Middle East that would be our puppets, but we could call them our friends and we could maintain peace by similar methods. But does any hon. Member suggest that a British Parliament could meet day after day with the record of shootings and massacres and imprisonments that that would mean if we were to keep those Governments attached to us indefinitely? Hon. Members know
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very well that that would be quite impossible.
In fact, if we tried to maintain such Governments in the Middle East as our instruments in such undemocratic ways, it would ultimately destroy the democracy of Great Britain itself. Therefore, we must have—and this is the nub of the argument—not only Governments that are in friendly relationship with us but peoples who are prepared to be friends with us also. That means that we must work out policies to which the Middle Eastern people can subscribe.
What worries me about the speech of the Foreign Secretary is that we are quite uncertain what it is that we are asked to support. I always find it difficult to follow him. I am quite certain that he is an astute lawyer, but I always think that when he presents a case he is like the boy who is not very certain whether to spell a word with the "e" before the "i" or the "i" before the "e" and, therefore, makes both letters look alike.
Until 14th of this month we understood that the policy of the Government with respect to the Lebanon was quite clear. It was stated by the Foreign Secretary on 2nd July, when he said:
"It is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to do all within their power to see that the Security Council Resolution of 11th June is carried out. I would remind the House of the terms of the operative paragraph of that Resolution, which reads:
'The Security Council … decides to despatch an observation Group to proceed to the borders of the Lebanon to ensure'—
mark the word—
"'that there is no illegal infiltration of personnel or supply of arms or other material across the Lebanese borders.'"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd July, 1958; Vol. 590, c. 1314.]
That Resolution was not vetoed by the Russian delegate. I am satisfied that Her Majesty's Government were pleased to find that the word "ensure" was in the Resolution, because that word authorised the Secretary-General of the United Nations to do whatever he thought, and whatever, subsequently, the Security Council might think, was necessary in order to protect the Lebanon from infiltration. Therefore, for the first time in circumstances of this sort, the Security Council had armed the Secretary-General with all the authority that he needed to deal with the situation. There was no need to go back on it. The affair went on in the Lebanon for two months.

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What I am puzzled about is this. We are told that the intervention from outside is so vexatious that something must be done about it in order to preserve the integrity and territorial inviolability of the Lebanon. President Chamoun has been in this trouble now for more than two months. It has been going on in one form or another for more than two years. He has not got the army—well he has got it, but he cannot use it—he has not been able to deploy the army against the rebels. We are told that 60 per cent. of the Lebanese population are against him. So for two months President Chamoun, with 60 per cent. of the population against him and the army not with him, has yet been able to withstand this infiltration from outside. This is poppycock.
The only real conclusion to be drawn from those facts is that there has been no serious attempt to overthrow him from outside, because he could not stand up against anything like substantial infiltration from outside. There has been, of course, some help coming to the rebels across the Syrian border, but the observer team of the United Nations declared that it was not substantial, and, of course, it could not have been substantial because otherwise Chamoun would not now be President. We know that some help has been coming to the Druses because their friends across the border have been sending some assistance to Jumblat. I should have thought that any hon. Member would agree with my conclusion that, in the circumstances in which President Chamoun found himself, it would be the greatest exaggeration to say that he had to deal with any substantial help for his enemies across the border.
This was the situation up till 14th of this month. In the meantime, the political situation in the Lebanon had improved. The President had declared that he would not stand for a further term of office, and the name of the new President had been brought forward. It is true that the military situation was still uneasy, but it was not as bad as it had been. Then, suddenly and most conveniently, the Intelligence Service of Her Majesty's Government, which up till then had been myopic, became penetrative. It discovered what the observer team could not discover. It discovered that a few
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days earlier substantially increased quantities of help were coming to the rebels across the Syrian frontier. Mr. Hammarskjöld, Secretary-General of the United Nations, has just this day reported to the Security Council that that statement is incorrect.
Yet, in those circumstances, after two months' delay, President Chamoun invites the United States to come to his help, a very providential invitation. Everybody knew very well—Mr. Foster Dulles almost blurted it out—that the invitation was in Mr. Chamoun's pocket whenever the United States wanted to have it, and they had it, but it happened to coincide with the rebellion in Bagdad.
This afternoon the Foreign Secretary said this: "I think the events of 14th July completely changed the situation. I think it is absolutely clear, in the atmosphere of the coup d'état in Bagdad and the plots against Jordan, that the body of observers could not guarantee the integrity and independence of the Lebanon." That is what I mean by putting the "i's" before the "e's" and the "e's" before the "i's," because I do not know from that sentence whether the United States marines are in the Lebanon because of what happened in Bagdad or because of Chamoun's invitation.
What we know is that there is no real connection between the two. We know very well that there is no conspiracy that links the rebels in the Lebanon with the insurrectionists in Bagdad. We know that there is nothing going over the Iraq border into the Lebanon. The only conclusion that we can reach, therefore, is this,—and it is a very serious one: that the invitation from President Chamoun and the presence of the American marines in the Lebanon were due not to any events in the Lebanon itself but in order to deal with the situation created in Iraq. That is where the trouble might start.
The danger, therefore, is that having got to the Lebanon, either impulsively or in any other way, what happens next? I do not believe that it was done impulsively. I do not agree with some of my hon. Friends there. I believe that it was carefully prepared beforehand until the moment arrived to give their disembarkation in Beirut some kind of juridical justification.
Having got there, what do we do? My right hon. Friend this afternoon made a

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statement to which I think the Government should pay very close attention. We have decided, many of us with very great reluctance, not to divide the House against the Government this evening. [Laughter.] I want hon. and right hon. Members opposite to weigh this situation very seriously indeed. We are afraid here—[HON. MEMBERS: "Afraid?"] Yes, afraid, and if any hon. Member is not afraid of what might be the consequences of this action, he is an ass. We are afraid that the same arid and outmoded logic that led to the landing of troops in the Lebanon might tempt Her Majesty's Government to respond to an invitation to send troops to Jordan and Iraq.
We warn them that if they do that, they have the responsibility for dividing the nation. We believe that such an act would set the people of this country upon a road of endless ruin. We do not believe for one single moment that it is in the best interests of this country to try to obtain oil from the Middle East by naked military means. We believe that it can be done by normal commercial transactions, supplemented and reinforced by intelligent diplomacy.
We do not believe that we are witnessing in the Middle East in these circumstances what has been described by President Eisenhower as merely one more piece of evidence of a universal Soviet plot. We believe that that is mere obsessionism. Hon. Members opposite, I am quite certain, will do us the credit of believing that we have studied this matter very earnestly and as deeply as we can. It may be that hon. Members opposite have more knowledge of the subject than we have. If they have, then they have so far concealed it from us.
I hope that the Prime Minister has sent the Foreign Secretary to Washington with a message to the President of the United States that we cannot go it with the Americans in military adventures in the Middle East. I hope that he will prevail upon them not to be too repentant of their virtue in 1956. What they did then in the Middle East, I am quite convinced, gave the United Nations an important reinforcement of strength. It is our duty to try to use that organisation to the utmost, and I am certain that it is in the best interests of Great Britain to try to restore our relations with the Arab nations upon a permanently friendly footing.
9.31 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): The question which the House has been debating today is one of the utmost gravity. Nobody, on either side of the House, can pretend that recent events in the Middle East have not created a critical and difficult situation. Whatever course future events may take, there are grave dangers for this country and, indeed, for many others, especially in Europe. We have plenty of problems of our own at home. How much better it would have been could we be left to deal with them in peace. But our international position, the nature of our economy and our dependence upon our alliances is such that we have to face these external events.
I must express my gratitude to the Leader of the Opposition for the tone and temper of his speech today. I hope that he will not think it impertient of me if I say that I feel sure that his decision not to divide the House is a wise one. The questions that the right hon. Gentleman posed to the Government were put in moderate form and, as he specifically said, did not call for an immediate reply. They were more statements of his own position than immediate requests for detailed information. The right hon. Gentleman was right in saying that the position is, and must remain for some time, uncertain and unsettled. His phrase that the Government cannot be expected to answer hypothetical questions is both valuable for present and, if I may say so, for future use.
In the course of the debate, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) asked about consultation with the Commonwealth. Ever since I became Prime Minister, it has been my practice to send personal messages to the Commonwealth Prime Ministers quite frequently, both in the old and in the new Commonwealth, on the general questions of the day. During recent months and weeks, as these Middle Eastern problems have developed, we have kept them informed of all major developments. Naturally, I must be frank and say that since I only heard of the tragedy in Bagdad at 8 o'clock on Monday morning, I cannot pretend that I had a full discussion with every Government of the Commonwealth between then and the time when the decisions were taken, 24 hours later, much as I would have liked to do so.

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Even so, messages were sent all the time and the Commonwealth Secretary has kept in touch with the Commonwealth High Commissioners in London.
I did not quite see the relevance of the earlier observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan). He spoke as if we were governing those countries in the Middle East. He spoke as if we had refused them their independence. What is the truth? In this very country where these tragic events have happened, Iraq, we were largely the creators of their freedom, and although we did certainly guide them through our treaty rights during the earlier years this Government and Governments before it have fully surrendered these rights to the full independence of Iraq.
As for the Bagdad Pact, the right hon. Gentleman can, of course, have his views. All I can say is that these were not expressed by his party, for the Motion approving the accession of Her Majesty's Government to that pact was carried without a Division in the House.
Nobody can pretend, I will not pretend, that the arguments for or against this or that course in this crisis, or, indeed, in any other crisis, have been overwhelming on one side or the other. In my experience, there are very few matters in which there is a 100 per cent. case on one side or the other. If it were so, life, and certainly politics, would be much simpler. Normally, there are considerations upon one side and the other. They have to be carefully balanced, and in the end it may be by a comparatively small margin that the scale tips finally this or that way.
What we are debating today is the decision of the United States Government, in which they have had the full support of the British Government, to send military forces to the Lebanon in response to President Chamoun's urgent appeal. This is only one of many questions in the Middle East, and, of course, we have had to consider it—and it has been right in a most interesting debate to consider it—in relation to the wider picture.
Perhaps we may examine what we are chiefly debating today from two main points of view, first, whether it is legally and morally justified, secondly, whether, on the whole balance of considerations it is wise and prudent.
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I do not wish to dismiss the legal points quite so cursorily as the Leader of the Opposition. I think that they are of some importance. I do not think that there can be much difference of view about that. A legitimate Government has, it seems to me, the right to ask for help in its difficulties from another friendly Government. Whether that help should be forthcoming or not is, of course, a matter of judgment, but I do not think that there is anything legally improper for a nation faced either with aggression from outside, or with internal disturbances supported from outside, to ask for help. I think that this is commonly recognised.
In the case of the Lebanon, the Manchester Guardian says this today:
"To describe the landing of American Marines in Lebanon as an act of aggression has no justification in international law; they came in response to an appeal by the constitutional head of a sovereign state who had a perfect right to invite them."
[HON. MEMBERS: "There is more. Read on."] I quite admit, and I am coming to it, that there is the question whether they should do so, whether it is wise to do so. I was dealing, first, with the legal power, and I take some comfort from this statement because as regards the legal rights there seems to be nothing in the ordinary law of nations or in the United Nations Charter which forbids such action.
Of course, it can be argued that where there is already some severe internal struggle in a country, and where the stimulus has come from an outside power, that is one of the occasions where the United Nations should act collectively. It was our hope that they would do so successfully, but, of course, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary said, time is of the essence of this problem. In any case, it seems to me that the legitimate Government of any friendly State has the right to ask for help to assist it against dangers, and there is no doubt at all that, from the legal point of view, neither the American assistance nor any other assistance that might be given it can be regarded as illegal. Still less, in my view, at any rate, can it be regarded as immoral.
I think that the House is fairly well aware, though perhaps not wholly aware, of the facts behind the rebellion in the Lebanon and, indeed, behind the whole

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pattern of subversion in many Middle Eastern States. It has been said that the internal situation of the Lebanon is simply an internal matter, a civil war between two factions, and that the Western Powers have been trying to bolster up an obsolete, unpopular and undemocratic régime. I think that that is really a false picture.
I know that it has been argued that the United Nations observers could not find any great evidence to substantiate the massive character of the intervention in their first report. But let us be fair and say that the United Nations observers, as my right hon. and learned Friend pointed out, had a very difficult job to do, although they did it to the best of their ability. They were working under very severe limitations. They were hurriedly assembled. They had not the modern apparatus necessary for the collection of intelligence and they had very limited contacts in the Lebanon. They were prevented by the rebel leaders from inspecting the frontier areas at all and, therefore, their report must be read with full regard to these facts. In other words, they were unable to ensure that there should be no intervention. How could they, when they ranged over only a few kilometres?
My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary made it quite clear, and it cannot be seriously disputed, that there has been subversion and foreign intervention organised from outside on a large scale. This is supported by evidence in our possession for which I must ask the House to take my assurance. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because I am stating what I believe to be true and I have evidence to support it. But the curious thing is that it is really confirmed by Mr. Hammarskjold's own efforts, as the Leader of the Opposition stated. For Mr. Hammarskjold, who, very properly, was trying to reduce the tension in the Lebanese struggle, went to Cairo. He was, of course, right to do so.
But why did Mr. Hammarskjold go there? Only, surely, because he felt that in Cairo he might be able to bring some influence upon the Egyptian Government and try to persuade them to stop what they were doing, and this would really be the most effective way, more effective perhaps than his observers, of reducing the character of the intervene-
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tion. He was right to go to Cairo and he had some success. I admit that, for it was generally thought that as a result of his efforts the pressure and the threats had been somewhat reduced. But his journey to Cairo and his partial success in Cairo are really a confirmation of the close connection between the situation in the Lebanon and the efforts to foment revolution springing from a foreign country.
I think that I may perhaps just add this. Successive British Governments, and certainly we, in the last period, have had some experience of being the victims of this sort of threat. It is the pattern of subversion in many parts. There has been a striking example of it recently in the attack in Aden. Here again, we have clear evidence of intrigue and subversion through the intermediary of another Power. Here again, we know from our own experience how propaganda and plots shade into violent revolution and, indeed, open aggression. We are familiar with this pattern. Of course, it is not so easy for the smaller and weaker countries to deal with it.
There is just one other point which was made to which I should make reference in dealing with the morality of what was done. Some parallel was drawn by some hon. Members between the American action and the events of 1956 in Hungary. What is the difference, we have been asked, between the revolt in Hungary and the threat to the Lebanon? Surely there is this cardinal difference. We all know, in spite of all the efforts of some of the most skilled propagandists in the world, that no one has been able to produce a jot of evidence to show that the Hungarian rising was other than spontaneous. It had no organisation from outside, it received no arms from abroad, no money and no previous propaganda preparation.
I think, therefore, that it is clear—and this is part of what I want to say—that from the legal point of view the Americans have acted correctly. I think that it is also clear that the action of the Americans and the support we have given, diplomatic and full support of them, is morally justified.
I now come to the other set of considerations which, I think, were mainly in the speeches of the Leader of the Opposition and also of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale.

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It is really saying this. Is it wise? It may be legal, it may be right to do it, it may be morally correct and legally correct, but is it wise, is it prudent? Therefore, I say what I began by saying, that the arguments are, of course, very balanced. On the one side it is said—and there is considerable force in the argument—that Western intervention, even at the request of the lawful Government of any State in difficulties, will only fan the flames of Arab nationalism and xenophobia. It will only increase the gulf between Nasser and his satellite States and the West.
These troubles, it is said, and it is a powerful argument, are merely symptomatic of a deep, underlying feeling of unsatisfied aspirations of a people slowly emerging from a medieval, perhaps a feudal system. But when one speaks of forms of government, although the régime of Iraq before this last coup was certainly monarchic, it was certainly one of the most progressive in the Middle East.
It is said—I think that everyone has admitted this—that it is a State which uses its oil revenues very beneficially for the public good, largely under the guidance of very distinguished colleagues and friends of ours who have helped. It has done so more than any other State in the Middle East and the successive rulers and Governments of Iraq, whatever failings they may have had, have always preferred the solid work of building up their country to the more showy forms of ostentation.
The Iraqi régime was not fully democratic in the Western sense, but it has been developing and moving forward. It is certainly a long way ahead from every point of view of the dictatorships which have tried to overthrow it, or which are trying to succeed it. In the same way, the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) said that the parliamentary and election system of the Lebanon was not altogether satisfactory by what we would call our modern standards and methods here, but at least it has a Parliament, which does not exist in the dictator countries. All the same—and I am trying to put the argument fairly—there is, as I have said, a great deal of weight and, let me be frank, a great attraction in the argument that we had
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better leave things alone, that these mass movements are inevitable and that we should accept them.
From the economic point of view it is, of course, true that the oil must be sold to somebody, that the buyer has a certain power as well as the proprietor, and that, even if it is sold at much higher prices and without the advantage of the great investing capacity of the companies, it is something if it continues to be sold in sterling.
Of course, there are great attractions, may I say great temptations, in allowing things to drift and hoping that, somehow or other, we shall emerge without too much damage. I think I have fairly stated this argument and I am not going to say that I have not given great weight to it. It is a matter of balance, and often of very nice balance. Yet, when I reflect upon the history of my lifetime, I cannot believe that it is always wise from the point of view of the future to think only of our convenience in the present.
I do not feel that the Leader of the Opposition was right in claiming that intervention in the Lebanon must be fatal in the long run. For if things merely drift along, what will be the end, or what may be the end of the story? Let us assume that Iraq, Jordan, the Lebanon and later, of course, the oil-bearing countries round the Gulf—all Arabia, the Yemen and Aden—are all brought voluntarily by an upsurge of feeling, or perhaps involuntarily, within the ambit of this Pan-Arab—I will not say nationalism, but rather imperialism. Will it end there? What will be the future of the Sudan, a country which we have done a great deal to create, and where we have done the very things which the right hon. Gentlemen so praised? What are they thinking? What do they fear? We know. Where will Libya stand, and what will be the resulting impact on other parts of Africa? And if we look further north, what may be the effect on our friends in Persia, Turkey and Pakistan?
These nationalist movements, like all nationalism, however good they are—we must try to guide them of course—can also have in them something perverted. They may be the instruments of legitimate ambition, but they can also be used for personal, wrong and subversive ends, and ultimately fall into Communist hands. This form of nationalism is not the pure patriotism of sacrifice. It is the kind

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of nationalism which feeds upon, and can often only be sustained, by continual aggression.
While I give full weight—I am trying to balance these things—to the arguments put forward by the two right hon. Gentlement, what we have to teach to the emerging nations of the world—and we have a fairly proud record which the right hon. Gentleman has shared, as he rightly claims, based upon a long tradition of teaching democratic principles, respect for the law and all the things we associate with the British connection—is this. I say that surely we want to teach them, so far as we can influence them, that they have not only rights but also responsibilities.
I am bound to say that the methods which are being used to promote these nationalist movements do not give one full confidence, or, indeed, much confidence, that they will be combined with respect for the legitimate interests of their own inhabitants, still less of neighbouring nations. Where short-term conditions favour inaction, long-term conditions may very well be the other way.
I have tried to balance the arguments and to put some of the considerations which must be in all our minds. We have had a debate to which we have all tried to contribute without too much party feeling on this problem. In any event, what we have to consider today, the immediate question before the House, is this: was the United States Government justified in the action which it has taken to support the Lebanon when it was threatened with disruption caused by external aggression and subversion?
Have we been right to associate ourselves with it—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—and to give moral support? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] Are we right to support this action in the United Nations, and shall we be right if we concert with them a broad policy which will try to avoid the obvious dangers, which we know too well, but not be content merely to avoid the dangers by ignoring them? The House as a whole, and, I think, the country, will take the view that in this difficult situation the Government reached the right decision. I think that even those who do not feel that, have approached our problem with a good deal of sympathy and understanding, and
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I pay my tribute of gratitude and thanks for it.
Finally, I feel that the close co-operation between Her Majesty's Government and the United States Government in the attempt to face these problems together is a gain to the world and it is a foundation on which we can build for the future. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) said, this is something which should be known not only to ourselves, but to the world.
The House as a whole will welcome the opportunity which Mr. Dulles's invitation will provide to my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary to have a general discussion on all these problems.
Mr. E. Fernyhough: To get his instructions.
The Prime Minister: Incidentally, the Leader of the Opposition referred to some remarks which I made at a meeting last night when I was talking about our close relations with the United States. I was quoted as saying—perhaps I did say something to the effect—that we would almost prefer to be wrong together than to be right separately. I did not mean that literally. Our aim must be to be right together.
To sum up, the House is conscious of the gravity of the situation. I think that there is a general understanding of the difficulties ahead of us. I think that there is a general wish that if it is possible we should not add to the problems of the nation by a divided Parliament. I say once more that we can make two claims. First, I think that we have the sympathy and the understanding, as I said, even of Members who do not altogether approve our decision—[HON. MEMBERS: "How does the right hon. Gentleman know?"] I have sensed it, and if I wish to pay a compliment I will do so; it will do hon. Members no injury, since it is only collective. Secondly, both the motives of the Government of the United States in taking the action which it has done, and the decision of Her Majesty's Government in giving it full support, are understood and will be supported by the nation as a whole.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
9.58 p.m.
Mr. William Ross: The Prime Minister—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. A measure of applause is quite usual in the House and can be understood, but I think that this prolonged applause is of an obstructive character. I think that the House should listen to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross).
Mr. Ross: The Prime Minister has admitted that the questions we have put have been pertinent and relevant, but he has not given any indication whatsoever of the Government's policy towards Jordan.
It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CHEQUERS ESTATE [MONEY]
  Resolution reported,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the deed of settlement set out in the Schedule to the Chequers Estate Act, 1917, and to authorise the payment of Exchequer grams in aid of the expenses of the administrative trustees under that deed, as amended, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of grants in aid of the expenses of the administrative trustees under the said deed as amended by the said Act of the present Session.
  Resolution agreed to.

  CHEQUERS ESTATE BILL
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
  Clauses 1 to 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  Schedule.—(AMENDMENTS OF DEED.)
  10.1 p.m.
  Sir Frank Soskice: I beg to move, in page 4, line 12, at the end to insert:
  1. The person who is for the time being the Lord Privy Seal.
  The object of the Amendment is to modify, in the sense indicated therein, the provisions in the Schedule for changing the composition of the administrative trustees. At the outset I should say that since the Second Reading debate we have had the opportunity of discussing with the Government the changes that we would like to see embodied in the Bill, and the Minister in charge has indicated that he would see his way to accept our proposals. As it stands, the Schedule, in effect, removes the Ministers who, under the terms of the existing deed, are the administrative trustees, from that body, and substitutes officials in their place. We felt that that went somewhat too far in the direction of changing the composition of the administrative trustees, and that a Minister of senior standing should be a member of that body. I understand that the Government are prepared to accede to that proposal.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. E. S. Simon): As I indicated during the Second Reading debate, we were anxious to respond to the spirit of

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  the Leader of the Opposition in welcoming the Bill and to discuss, before the Committee stage, any misgivings that the Opposition might have about the form of the Bill as first presented to the House. We were also anxious, as far as we could, to meet any anxieties expressed by them. As the right hon. and learned Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice) has indicated, we have found it possible to meet all the anxieties and to agree to the Amendments which the Opposition desire to see in the Bill.
  I wish to say only this about the Amendment. My right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal is quite willing to act as chairman of the trustees, and the Government are prepared to see a senior Minister as chairman in order to preserve some Ministerial and some political connection with the Chequers estate. Although I am prepared to accept the Amendment, I do not want to bind the Government at this stage to say that it should be the holder of any one specific office who for all time would be chairman of the trustees.
  Perhaps it would be invidious to reflect aloud on some right hon. Gentlemen who in the past have occupied the office of Lord Privy Seal. It is unnecessary to do so, because one can say that it is possible that in some future Government there will be some other senior Minister who would be more suitable. Therefore, although I am prepared to accept the Amendment, I want it to be on the understanding that, before the Bill goes to another place, we should like to consider whether or not it might be suitable to table an Amendment to enable future Prime Ministers to choose a senior Minister other than the holder of the office of Lord Privy Seal. If that happens, the House of Commons will have a further opportunity of considering such an Amendment; but, as at present advised, I am prepared to accept this Amendment.
  Sir F. Soskice: I am grateful to the Financial Secretary for what he has said, subject to the fact that I was not conscious of any such qualification as he indicates. It may well be that if it is the purpose of the Government to make provision for the possible substitution of another Minister of senior rank, we in the Opposition would not feel any strong objection to that proposal. However, I must say that it is a proposal which comes new to me. At the moment we are concerned
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  only with the Amendment on the Order Paper. Naturally, we shall look at any change the Government seek to introduce in another place with the scrutiny which this Bill deserves and which we have given to it. However, I have moved this Amendment, and I understand from the Financial Secretary that it is accepted by the Government.
  Mr. Ede: Can the hon. and learned Gentleman tell me what he means by a "senior Minister"? It is a new phrase to me. Obviously it does not relate to age. I understand that there are certain Ministers who hold ancient offices under the Crown, like the Lord President of the Council and the Lord Privy Seal. After that there are, of course, some offices whose holders are generally included in the Cabinet, but the choice is entirely open to the Prime Minister. Does it mean that it will be a person in the Cabinet or what other idea have the Government in mind—if they have any ideas at all—about what this new phrase "senior Minister" means?
  Mr. Simon: I was afraid the right hon. Gentleman might ask me that question. Of course, the phrase "senior Minister" is not susceptible of legal definition. For that reason I did not table any different Amendment and was prepared to accept the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice). All I can say is that if some other formula is found, and is found to be preferable, it will be one which I think will meat the conception which the Opposition have of some respected holder of a high office in the Government, if it should not be the Lord Privy Seal. I cannot go further than that.
  The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly right. A "senior Minister" of the Crown is not a phrase susceptible of legal definition and therefore cannot go into a Statute. I thought it right to give a word of warning in case we did wish to have another look at this phrase before the Bill goes to another place.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Sir F. Soskice: I beg to move, in page 4, line 13, to leave out from "Minister" to the end of line 14.
  The Chairman: This Amendment goes with the Amendment in page 7, line 36,

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  to leave out from the beginning to "is", and to insert:
  "The person who is for the time being the Lord Privy Seal shall be the chairman of the administrative trustees but if he".
  Sir F. Soskice: That is so, Sir Charles. The purpose of the Amendment I am moving is to remove the existing provision in the Schedule to the effect that the person nominated by the Prime Minister is to be the chairman of the administrative trustees. The later Amendment to which reference has been made provides that it shall be the Lord Privy Seal, the holder of that office for the time being, who is to be the chairman of the trustees. I understand from the Financial Secretary that this is also a proposal with which the Government agree.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Sir F. Soskice: I beg to move, in page 6, line 49, at the end, to insert:
  "and
  (b) shall not be exercised in respect of any other part of the Chequers Estate unless the transaction has previously been approved by the person who (on the date of the contract of sale or other contract in question) is the Prime Minister".
  This is an important Amendment to which I gather the Government are prepared to give their assent. It deals with the power to sell and dispose of land.
  The Amendment says that no such transaction is to take place except with the approval of the person who for the time being holds the office of Prime Minister. This, in the view of the Opposition, is a major and necessary safeguard, because the Bill gives power to the administrative trustees to dispose of land which is part of this national heritage except that part which can be regarded as the
  "mansion house or … gardens adjacent thereto."
  The word "gardens" is nowhere defined, but we have thought that there should be some check upon possible moves by the trustees to dispose of land in a sense which would seriously impair what has become part of the property of the nation.
  There are three matters which I would like to mention. I understand, and this
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  is of great importance, that the Government are prepared to give a definite undertaking through the mouth of the Financial Secretary with regard to two plots of land which, so I am informed, it is the purpose of the administrative trustees to dispose of. For the purpose of the record I should perhaps define the two plots of land. One is that which is appurtenant to Brockwell Farm at the south-west end of the estate and the other is the Kimble Hill property at the north-west end of the estate.
  I understand that the trustees desire to dispose of both those properties. In the Opposition we felt great apprehension about that, because it seems to us that if those properties were disposed of for building purposes and were acquired by a speculative builder, that would seriously impair the amenities of the estate. I understand, and I should like this confirmed by the Financial Secretary now while we are considering the Amendment, that the Government are prepared to undertake that if these sales take place—of course, in any event they will be able to take place only with the approval of the Prime Minister—they will be subject to certain restrictive covenants.
  10.15 p.m.
  I understand that the restrictive covenant in the case of Brockwell Farm will be a restrictive covenant which will limit the land appurtenant to that farm to use either for the purpose of a single private dwelling-house to be erected on the site of the present Brockwell Farm—unless that farm is itself modernised or changed into a modern private dwelling-house—or for agricultural purposes.
  I also understand that the Government are prepared to undertake that the land at Kimble Hill will also, if sold, be sold subject to a similar restrictive covenant—in that case, a restrictive covenant to the effect that it will be used only for agricultural purposes. I should like that formally confirmed by the Financial Secretary, as this is a matter to which we attach great importance, and we understand that the hon. and learned Gentleman is prepared to give that undertaking.
  I should like to mention one other matter. The Amendment provides that the Prime Minister's approval is to be obtained before there is any sale or disposal of land that can be disposed of

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  under the powers now taken for the administrative trustees by this Bill. It would, naturally, be a matter of courtesy that the Prime Minister should inform the Leader of the Opposition if there were any such intention to dispose of land under the powers now taken. Perhaps the Financial Secretary can tell the Committee that the Prime Minister would, at least, inform the Leader of the Opposition for the time being before there was any such disposal of land. I hope that I may be given the assurances for which I have asked.
  Mr. Simon: The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was obviously haunted, on Second Reading, with the prospect of the Estate of Chequers being sold off in building lots, and with a vision of villa roofs and privet hedges greeting the Prime Minister when he had his breakfast, and the evening made hideous by the sound of tennis balls, and the caterwauling of the local operatic society at rehearsal. I pointed out at the time that I thought that that was an exaggerated picture, in view of the duty laid on the trustees to have
  "… regard to the need for preserving the enjoyment of the mansion house and gardens … as a suitable country residence for the Prime Minister …"
  Nevertheless, I am very glad to be able to accept this Amendment. It is a safeguard against the alienation of the land, which is necessary to the enjoyment of the mansion house as a suitable country residence for the Prime Minister. It is, however, desired to sell off the two outlying farms to which the right hon. Gentleman referred—Brockwell Farm, in the south, and Church Farm, in the northwest—in the interests of good estate management. I am quite prepared to say that Brockwell Farm and Church Farm, and the land adjoining them, will not be sold without the imposition of restrictive covenants limiting the use of the property in each case to agricultural purposes or to the purposes of a single private dwelling-house. When I say "single private dwelling-house", it is intended that this, in each case, will be on the site of the existing farm buildings, if it is intended to rebuild.
  Referring to the other matter about which the right hon. and learned Gentleman asked, in matters relating to the Chequers Estate it has been the custom in the past to take the Leader of the
  1378
  Opposition into the confidence of the Prime Minister. That, indeed, was done in the preparation of this present Bill. I am perfectly prepared to give an undertaking that in any major matter affecting the Chequers Estate, or whenever there is any major question of selling the land, the Leader of the Opposition will be taken into consultation.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. Nigel Nicolson: I beg to move, in page 7, line 20, after "hereof", to insert:
  "except those specified in the catalogue mentioned in clause 3 of the deed".
  On Second Reading I suggested that Parliament should be scrupulous in setting aside the terms of a trust settlement and should do so only if we could show conclusively that circumstances had changed since the date when the settlement was made. The Leader of the Opposition in his speech on that occasion and the Opposition Amendments tonight have concentrated on the matter of land. I have put this Amendment on the Paper and another which is to follow later to deal with the question of chattels in the house itself.
  It seems to me that it is not legitimate for Parliament to disregard the express wish of Lord Lee of Fareham when he made the settlement on Chequers that the contents of the house and in particular the valuable collections of furniture, pictures, manuscripts, china and other objects should never be dispersed. While I see that it is perfectly reasonable that power should be given by this Bill to the trustees to sell unimportant pieces of furniture—to change the carpets or curtains, to dispose of cracked china and so on—I think it unreasonable to go so far as the present Clause does and to permit the trustees to sell even the most valuable objects which formed part of Lord Lee's bequest to the nation and to future Prime Ministers.
  Therefore, I put down this Amendment which would limit that power. I suggest that the power of the trustees to sell should not apply to works of art in the house. In error I included in the Amendment on the Paper the word "inventory". The word should be "catalogue" and my error arose out of an error in the original Act which I need not trouble the House by explaining. There is a great distinction

  1379
  between the catalogue and the inventory and it is precisely that distinction I wish to make by my Amendment.
  The inventory of Chequers consists of a list of all the objects in Chequers down to the last tooth glass in a housemaid's bedroom, but the catalogue consists only of a list of all those outstanding works of art and relics, particularly Cromwellian relics, in the house. In my opinion, the trustees should have power to dispose of minor objects, occasional tables and tooth glasses; they should not have power to dispose of works of art. I commend my Amendment with that verbal alteration substituting "catalogue" for "inventory" and I hope it will seem to the Financial Secretary a reasonable distinction and a fairer way of dealing with Lord Lee's request.
  Mr. Simon: The trustees, as the House knows, have found themselves increasingly hampered by the operation of the existing provisions, which do not permit the sale of any chattels whatever from the estate. Some of the chattels, of course, are bound to wear out, but even then the trustees have no power to dispose of them. An old carpet may have worn out, there may be a very uncomfortable armchair of no artistic value, or a cracked kitchen teapot, but none of those things can be sent to the village jumble sale. Therefore, it was expressly desired, as one of the aims of the Bill, to give some greater flexibility in the disposal of the chattels of the house which are of no artistic value.
  The difficulty about my hon. Friend's Amendment, even when the word "inventory" is altered to "catalogue", is that it would not meet the case. There is both an inventory and a catalogue. The inventory is a very detailed list, setting out virtually all the chattels in the house. It is that which is mentioned in clause 3 of the deed. In addition, there is a catalogue of the principal works of art at Chequers, but that is not the inventory to which clause 3 refers.
  I think that the confusion arises—and it is very understandable, if I may say so with respect to my hon. Friend—because clause 15 (f) refers to works of art as specified in the catalogue mentioned in clause 3, but in fact clause 3 does not mention any catalogue at all but refers only to the inventory. One
  1380
  therefore sees that there is no way of differentiating between the works of art and the minor chattels, as to which we all wish to see greater flexibility and greater discretion given to the trustees.
  In a later Amendment on the Order Paper the disposal of any chattel must have the assent of the chairman of the trustees who, following the Amendment which we have made, is the Lord Privy Seal. With that safeguard and with my assuring my hon. Friend that it is the intention to preserve the major works of art and historic relics unimpaired at Chequers, I hope that my hon. Friend will withdraw the Amendment.
  Mr. N. Nicolson: In view of what my hon. and learned Friend said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Sir F. Soskice: I beg to move, in page 7, line 27, at the end to insert:
  Provided that the power to sell chattels under this clause shall not be exercised except in pursuance of a decision of the trustees in which the chairman of the trustees concurs.
  The Chairman: I think that this could be discussed with the Amendment in line 47.
  Sir F. Soskice: As you say, Sir Charles, both the Amendments go together, and I can briefly indicate the purposes of both. I must confess that I have a great deal of sympathy with the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East and Christchurch (Mr. N. Nicolson). As the Financial Secretary has indicated, we have sought to substitute an alternative safeguard, as we feel that we must do something to see that these chattels are preserved as far as possible in accordance with the spirit of the original deed and the original gift.
  The Financial Secretary has indicated that he is prepared to accept the Amendment, which is to the effect that no chattel shall be disposed of except in accordance with a decision of the trustees to which the chairman of the trustees—the Lord Privy Seal—is a consenting party. We think that that is an adequate safeguard, and with that provision in the Bill we feel happy that these chattels will be suitably preserved and that nothing of importance will be disposed of or at any rate that any proposed disposal will be individually considered and cannot take place unless the Lord Privy Seal agrees.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made: In page 7, line 36, leave out from beginning to "is" and insert:
  "The person who is for the time being the Lord Privy Seal shall be the chairman of the Administrative trustees but if he".
  In line 47, at end insert:
  Provided that in relation to the power conferred by clause 8E hereof thin clause shall have effect subject to the proviso to that clause.—[Sir F. Soskice.]
  10.30 p.m.
  Mr. N. Nicolson: I beg to move, in page 8, line 2, to leave out from "Chequers)" to "In" in line 4, and to insert:
  "paragraphs (d) and (e) shall be omitted.
  14. The following clauses shall be inserted after clause 15 of the deed
  15A.".
  The Chairman: I think that this Amendment goes with the next Amendment, also in page 8, to leave out from the end of line 15 to "For" in line 18, and to insert "15B.".
  Mr. Nicolson: That is so. They go together and refer to the power given to the trustees to make alterations to the external appearance of the house. The Schedule is widely drawn and omits a great many of the provisos which Lord Lee inserted in the deed under the 1917 Act. But, in my opinion, these excisions are far too drastic. Lord Lee requested that the architectural details of Chequers should remain unchanged. This passage of the Bill deletes that provision. He also asked that there should be no new buildings put up within 200 yards of the house. That provision is likewise deleted by this passage. I would prefer to see those two provisions kept in the deed.
  It is not unreasonable to imagine that Chequers could remain as it is, except for normal maintenance and repair, for many further centuries. I cannot foresee that any future trustees would wish to plaster over the brickwork or to destroy any of the architectural features of the house, which, since the removal of the Victorian Gothic additions, are precisely as they were left by the builder, William Hawtrey, at the beginning of the reign of Queen Elizabeth I.
  I should like to know from my hon. and learned Friend what was the motive of those who drafted the Bill in seeking
  1382
  to delete this wish of Lord Lee, and whether it could be restored without unnecessarily hampering the trustees. Secondly, I understand that there is no wish on the part of the trustees or the actual curator of Chequers to add any buildings to the neighbourhood. One could have understood it if there was need of a new shed to house a new form of heating, but there is no such wish, and yet power is to be given to the trustees to make such additions, which might materially affect the appearance of Chequers. I suggest that that power is an unnecessary one and should be removed.
  The final power which the trustees are making under this passage of the Bill is the power to sell chattels. We have already dealt with that subject. My main intention, therefore, in the Amendment is to confine the changes in Lord Lee's testament to the two items that in future the trustees shall have power, if they so wish, to alter the internal decorations of the house, and secondly, that they shall have power to remove the furniture from room to room. At the moment, they are forbidden by the original deed to do both these things. I consider that those provisions were unreasonable.
  Mr. Simon: These Amendments contribute to one object, which is to retain in their present power paragraphs (b), (c) and (f) of clause 15 of the original deed. These three provisions are: first, that the architectural features of the mansion house, surrounding gardens, and so on, shall be preserved intact: secondly, that no new building be erected within 200 yards of the mansion house; and, thirdly, that all pictures, tapestries, books, etc., as specified in the catalogue—to the difficulty concerning which I have already referred—mentioned in clause 3 are never to be removed from the mansion house. The Committee has already approved the giving of greater flexibility in regard to chattels. Therefore, if only for that reason, my hon. Friend will see that the Amendment runs counter to the intention of the Bill and the decision of the Committee.
  I would however, like to reassure my hon. Friend on the other two matters to which, I know, he attaches importance. The reason why those two clauses are being dropped is, first, that they impose

  1383
  an absolute prohibition, and secondly, because their spirit and the intention to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention are carried out in another way under the Bill. It is these absolute prohibitions which have created the difficulty in the past.
  It certainly is not the present intention to erect any new building within 200 yards of the mansion house, but we may in the future have some new form of heating and it may be desirable to put up some building to house it. The safeguard is first of all the character of the trustees; secondly, the fact that the Minister of Works has in the past been consulted and will in future be consulted about any such move; thirdly and most important the duty of the trustees to
  "refrain from making any avoidable change in the distinctive features and character of the said mansion house and gardens."
  I was quoting from paragraph 13 of the Schedule to the Bill. That is the overriding duty, and in our view gives a safeguard against the mischiefs which my hon. Friend has in mind. The same applies to the preserving of the architectural features of the mansion house and surrounding gardens. In our view they are amply safeguarded by the formula which I have just read.
  Mr. N. Nicolson: I am sure the assurances my hon. and learned Friend has given will satisfy the Committee. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered; read the Third time and passed.

  STATE OF SINGAPORE [MONEY]
  Resolution reported,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the establishment of the State of Singapore, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in sums so payable which is attributable to any Order in Council under that Act making adaptations or modifications of, or of any instrument made under, any other Act of Parliament.
  Resolution agreed to.

  STATE OF SINGAPORE BILL
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]

  STATE OF SINGAPORE BILL

    Clause 1.—(ESTABLISHMENT OF STATE OF SINGAPORE.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
    10.38 p.m.
    Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: Before we accept this Clause I want to ask the Under-Secretary of State for certain assurances. This is a Bill to
    "provide for the establishment of the State of Singapore and for the peace, order and good government thereof"
    and this Clause is the essential Clause of the Bill. I do not think that there will be opposition to the Bill as a whole from this side of the Committee. It was accepted in conference between the Secretary of State and representatives of the parties from Singapore.
    There was, however, one difference during those discussions, and it is the matter of that difference that I want to raise now. The difference between the Secretary of State and the representatives of the parties in Singapore was on the question whether anyone who had been found guilty of having been subversive—
    The Deputy-Chairman: I am afraid there is nothing about this in the Clause.
    Mr. Brockway: I submit to you, Sir Gordon, that this Clause is for
    "the establishment of the State of Singapore and for the peace, order and good government thereof".
    and that under this Clause
    "Her Majesty may by Order in Council … make such provision as may appear to Her Majesty to be necessary or expedient for the peace, order and good government, under the title of the State of Singapore …".
    I am raising the question whether arrangements which have been made between the Secretary of State and the parties in Singapore are such as to make for peace, order and good government in the State of Singapore, as established by the Bill.
    The Deputy-Chairman: Would the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies tell me whether this would be done by Order in Council under the Clause and, if so, would it come before the House?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. John Profumo): No, Sir. It is not done by Order in Council under the Clause.
    The Deputy-Chairman: Then the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) is not in order.
    Mr. Profumo: It was explained by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies on Second Reading. I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) was here or not. It is reported in column 756 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of 11th July last.
    Mr. Brockway: May I ask for your guidance, Sir Gordon? If this does not appear to be in order on this Clause, may I raise the matter on Third Reading?
    The Deputy-Chairman: No. It is not in the Bill.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Bill reported, without Amendment.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
    10.42 p.m.
    Mr. Brockway: I wish to raise a matter which is of substance greater than I could raise in discussion of the individual Clauses but which is very relevant to acceptance of the Bill. The Bill arises from discussions which have taken place between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and representatives of the parties in Singapore. I think that on Third Reading one is entitled to ask for an assurance that the Bill will be applied in such a way as to bring peace, order and good government to the State of Singapore. During these discussions there was general agreement on all but one matter, which I now want to raise because I believe that some assurance on it is absolutely necessary if the Bill is to succeed in its purpose.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Gordon Touche): I gather that the hon. Member is about to raise something which is not in the Bill.
    Mr. Brockway: I would argue very strongly that the matter is relevant to the Bill, which is for the establishment of the State of Singapore and which arose
    1386
    from negotiations between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and parties in Singapore. Surely, when the Bill gives power to Her Majesty, by Order in Council, to do certain things one is entitled to raise on Third Reading what may be done under such an Order in Council.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I understand that what the hon. Member wants to raise is something which will not be done under the Bill.
    Mr. Brockway: I respectfully suggest that it is a matter which is governed by the Bill. The Bill is to establish a State of Singapore and that State must depend upon elections to the legislature and other matters of that kind. I wish to raise the question of a condition relevant to the election of that body, which must be the functioning body within the new State of Singapore.
    Sir Frank Soskice: I do not know, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether you are calling upon me to speak in the debate. I was moving, I agree, in a somewhat suspicious manner. I really desire to do two things. My agitated movements were dictated, first, by a desire to explore, possibly more fully than my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) had done, the propriety of his raising the point which I believe is the one he wishes to raise although he has not as yet indicated exactly what that point is. I was hoping to discuss that with you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in the form of a point of order if you would allow me to do so.
    My other object was to make some general observations on this very important Bill. Perhaps I might now, in the form of a point of order, raise this matter with you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and ask you whether I am now on my feet in pursuance of the point of order, or whether, with your liberty, I should make the general observations that I wish to make on the Third Reading of the Bill.
    I should like some time or other, if you are disposed to rule against my hon. Friend. Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to make one or two submissions on that. Perhaps you would be good enough to give me your guidance as to whether it would be appropriate to do that now.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The right hon. and and learned Gentleman should raise the question on the point of order first.
    Sir F. Soskice: The point of order I wish to raise is this. I understand that my hon. Friend wishes to raise a question relating to the eligibility for the Assembly to be set up by the Government under the powers given by the Bill of persons who have been convicted of certain proceedings. The respectful submission which I desire to make to the Chair would be that on Third Reading it is not out of order to discuss the use which the Government propose to make of the powers which they have taken under the Bill.
    Under the Bill, the Government are taking powers to make a Constitutional Order, and what I thought my hon. Friend wanted to know was whether, in the exercise of those powers which the Government are taking under the Bill—in other words, that is a question specifically within the terms of the Bill—they propose to bring it about that those persons are or are not to be eligible for election to the Assembly.
    My respectful submission to the Chair is that it would be in order for my hon. Friend to press the Government to say how they propose to make use of the powers which they are taking in this respect. All that my hon. Friend said, in effect, was, "You are taking powers under the Bill to do certain things. We can no longer question the propriety of your taking those powers. That has been decided by the House. The only thing I wish to ask is this. Will your exercise of those powers be in one direction or in another in relation to the eligibility of these persons for membership?" I have to submit that it would be in order.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I understand that the Order is not taken under this Bill. That is the position, and the matter cannot be discussed on Third Reading. We can only discuss on Third Reading—
    Sir F. Soskice: On a point of order. Could my hon. Friend ask the Government whether, in point of fact, the constitutional Order will or will not provide, one way or another, for this matter? If the answer is that it will not provide for this matter, would you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, be so good as to indicate to my hon. Friend what instrument, if any, will provide for it, or whether the Government propose to do nothing about it?
    The purpose of my hon. Friend's question is to find out what the Government
    1388
    propose to do. The exercise of the powers under the Bill enables the Government to make, in the first place, a constitutional Order and then to make other Orders to give effect to the constitutional Order. What my hon. Friend wants to know is whether it will be under the constitutional Order that this matter is dealt with, if it is dealt with, and, if it is not dealt with under the constitutional Order, whether it would be made under an Order in Council to give effect to the Constitution or whether it will be under any or none of them. If the answer is that it is to be made under one of those two instruments, my hon. Friend would probably like to know the form in which the power is to be used.
    Mr. Profumo: It may be convenient if I intervene for a moment, because my right hon. Friend and I are very anxious that there should not be any misunderstanding about any part of the Bill. The difficulty may arise from the fact that the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) was not present for the Second Reading, and I do not recollect that the right hon. and learned Gentleman was present.
    Sir F. Soskice: I read every word of the debate.
    Mr. Profumo: Perhaps the right hon. and learned Gentleman will not mind if I read what was said. The confusion arises in this way. My right hon. Friend said on this subject on Second Reading:
    "We do not propose that this ban should be set out in the constitutional Order in Council itself."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th July, 1958; Vol. 591, c. 756.]
    It is, therefore, perfectly plain that it is not itself to be set out in the Order in Council which we are discussing. It will be set out in another Order which will be necessary to provide for the holding of the first elections. The imposition of the ban therefore does not arise on Third Reading, and it is perfectly plain what the intention of Her Majesty's Government is.
    Sir F. Soskice: Further to that point of order. We must press the Government on this matter. The Under-Secretary has now reminded us that it is not to be done under the constitutional Order in Council itself, but that it is to be done in another Order. The Bill provides for further Orders in Council to be made to give effect to the constitutional Order. Presumably, what the Under-Secretary is

    1389
    now telling the Committee is that it is to be under those other Orders for which the Bill provides. The Government would not have power to make those other Orders unless there were provision for that in the Bill.
    My hon. Friend wants to know what we have not yet been told: what does the Order in Council, which the Government are now empowering themselves to make, provide for the matters to which my hon. Friend referred? Is it in order for him to ask that?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It depends whether the Order in Council is made under the Bill. I understand from the Minister that it is not.
    Sir F. Soskice: Making such sense as I can of the Bill, and considering other relevant legislation, I cannot think of any power which the Government would have, other than that mentioned in Clause 1 (3), to make the other Order in Council. The Under-Secretary has not given you advice on this Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and as he has not done so, perhaps I can humbly tender my poor advice.
    Such as it is, my advice would be that the Government have no power to make these Orders in Council, except that power in Clause 1 (3). I respectfully submit that my hon. Friend would be in order in asking what use the Government propose to make of the power which they are taking to make an Order in Council which, I understand, at least by inference from what the Minister said, will be an Order in Council dealing with the matter.
    Mr. Profumo: Perhaps I did not make it clear enough. The Orders mentioned by my right hon. Friend on Second Reading are Orders which can be made under existing powers and not under the powers taken in the Bill.
    Mr. Brockway: In that case, I should have to ask what the existing powers were by which that provision could be made. The Bill provides, as I understand, for a constitutional Order under which Order there is power to introduce other Orders in Council. This is a matter which still has to be put into operation. I submit that any action which is taken in connection with the new Constitution must arise from the Orders which are subsidiary to the constitutional Order.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The difficulty is that the Order must be one that is made under the Bill. I understand from the
    1390
    Government that orders are made under another Act.
    Mr. Profumo: They are made under existing powers contained in the British Settlements Act, 1887, and the Straits Settlement (Repeal) Act, 1946.
    Mr. Brockway: I must accept that if it is your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but it will now be on record, and I very much doubt whether it is a fact that existing legislation gives the Government power to introduce this proposal. If necessary, I shall refer to this discussion tonight in challenging the right of the Government to make this provision, if they do so in future.
    10.55 p.m.
    Sir F. Soskice: The Minister did not rise to introduce the Third Reading of the Bill. I do not know whether he intends to favour us with any observations about it. It is a Bill of considerable importance, and we ought not to let it go by on Third Reading without dwelling upon it for a short time and considering some of its provisions.
    It is true that in form it is simply an enabling Bill; it enables the constitutional Order to be made and also certain Orders in Council to be made with a view to giving effect to that constitutional Order. But the purpose of the Government taking that power is what interests everybody, and it is that purpose which is significant in the progress of events in the march of the Commonwealth of which we are all so proud, and which has moved forward so much since the Statute of Westminster and, still more, since the end of the Second World War.
    It is right to remind ourselves of the fact that by the Bill the State of Singapore is being given virtually complete autonomy in matters of self-government, although for matters of defence the United Kingdom Government are retaining authority and there is a kind of half-way house for purposes of internal security. We recognise that in relation to Singapore there are movements which require vigilance.
    Hon. Members on this side of the House and, no doubt, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, would wish the young State of Singapore—young in the sense of its now being created into a State—godspeed. This island, depending largely for its living upon the entrepôt trade of the great Port of Singapore, is

    1391
    one of the phenomena of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. One thinks of the remarkable work done by the man who went there in 1819, when there was a small indigenous population. That population has now increased, largely by immigration, to a great one of 1¼ million, living on an island which is joined to the mainland by a causeway, the island being not much larger than the Isle of Wight.
    Obviously, the economic life of that new State is in some senses somewhat precarious. It will depend upon the continued prosperity of the port, and we must wish it well and hope that its economic prosperity will be maintained, and will grow. One knows the various considerations in favour of joining the new State into a wider union, but that perhaps hardly enters into the scope of the present debate. The Opposition, in welcoming the Third Reading of the Bill, wish to express our warm wishes for the future success and prosperity of the population of this island.
    11.1 p.m.
    Sir John Barlow: I cannot let the Bill pass without offering my good wishes for the future of the State of Singapore. I have perhaps had the pleasure of knowing Singapore over a longer period than most hon. Members. I have been there twice during the last year. For that reason, and because I have seen its growth to prosperity in comparatively recent time, and because of the help which this country has given in building up this unique small island in the Far East, I am sure that all of us wish it all the luck and prosperity that it deserves.
    The Chinese population has been of great assistance in building up the prosperity of the island and we have contributed both commercially and politically. I hope that with the passing of the Bill the good will on which has been built up its past and present prosperity will still continue. The people of Singapore are as necessary to us as we are to them and I am sure that this legislation carries with it the good will of hon. Members on both sides of the House.
    11.2 p.m.
    Mr. Brockway: Although I have recently raised a point of order which was ruled out of order, I should like to associate myself with what has been said
    1392
    from my own Front Bench and by the hon. Member for Middleton and Prestwich (Sir J. Barlow). I think it appropriate to express our appreciation of the services of the Chief Minister, Lim Yew Hock, in the solution of this problem, and those of other members of the delegation representing the parties in Singapore. I hope that under the new powers which they will possess they will advance towards full self-government and ultimate independence; and that there will be a continuing improvement in the living standards of the people, educationally and physically, so that the different races represented there may co-operate and live together in continual progress.
    11.3 p.m.
    Mr. Profumo: May I express on behalf of my right hon. Friend our gratitude for the tributes which have been paid by the right hon. and learned Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice), by my hon. Friend the Member for Middleton and Prestwich (Sir J. Barlow) and the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway). I do not want to delay the House, but I should not wish this moment to go by without adding my tribute to the Bill.
    I wish also to say how pleased I am to see so many hon. Members present at its Third Reading. There are at least three or four times as many as were present during the Second Reading debate. I mention this because those hon. Members who were unable to be present during the Second Reading debate missed a long and most moving speech from my right hon. Friend. He would have been present tonight but for the fact that he is occupied on other most urgent duties. At the end of his speech on Second Reading he said that it was an essay in mutual co-operation. That single phrase sums up this Bill better than any words which I might summon.
    I join with the right hon. and learned Gentleman in the good wishes he expressed to the people of Singapore for their future and their economic prosperity. This is a reaffirmation of our belief in the power of democracy and I join with other hon. Members in wishing the people of Singapore God-speed for the future.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

  ARMY AND AIR EXPENDITURE 1956–57
  Resolutions reported,
  I. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1957, that the aggregate Expenditure on Army Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Army Services over the net Expenditure is £8,355,653 17s. 8d., viz.:—

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  11,754,546

  17

  11

  Total Deficits

  3,398,893

  0

  3

  Net Surplus

  £8,355,653

  17

  8

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised—

  (1) the application of so much of the realised surplus on Vote 8 for Army Services as is necessary to meet the let deficit of £727,322 8s. 5d. on Vote 11 that would otherwise have been met by issues out of the Consolidated Fund under the Armed Forces (Housing Loans) Acts. 1949 and 1953;

  (2) the application of so much of the remainder of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to make good the remainder of the said total deficits on other Grants for Army Services.

  1. That the application of such sums be sanctioned.
  II. Whereas it appears by the Air Appropriation Account for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1957, that the aggregate Expenditure on Air Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Air Services over the net Expenditure is £7,415,590 11s. 7d., viz.:—

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  35,636,871

  16

  6

  Total Deficits

  28,221,281

  4

  11

  Net Surplus

  £7,415,590

  11

  7

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Air Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Air Services.
  2. That the application of such sums be sanctioned.
  [For details see OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th July, 1958; Vol. 591, c. 1189–1192.]
  Resolutions agreed to.

  PORT OF CARDIFF
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]
  11.6 p.m.
  Mr. George Thomas: I seek to bring the attention of the House to issues nearer home and, in particular, to raise a matter of the first importance in the Principality. Everyone with any sense of responsibility for the well-being of the City of Cardiff is deeply disquieted at the present time by the present trend at Cardiff Docks and by the apparent indifference to her fate by the very people who should be actively protecting her interests.
  The Port of Cardiff has a proud history of service to the nation, both in peace and in war. It enjoys the services of dock labour manpower second to none in the world. The time for the turn-round of a ship in the port will bear favourable comparison with that of any major port in the whole of Europe. Labour disputes have been fewer in Cardiff than in any other port in our country during the last decade.
  It was our misfortune that the port was developed as a one-industry port. She became the greatest coal exporting port in the whole world. In the 'thirties Cardiff shared in the general depression, came to life again during the war, but since 1945 there has been a long struggle to survive. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) and I, during the past thirteen years, have made repeated efforts in this House, with Government Departments and with private industry, to keep the docks alive. Considerable help was given when the Government made bulk purchases of food and timber. The ending of bulk purchase was a serious blow to the Port of Cardiff in relation to its imports.
  A second very heavy blow was struck by what, for us, was the disastrous decision of the National Coal Board about the export of coal. Now another handicap has beset all our efforts to obtain increased exports and imports trade in Cardiff. The inequality of the charges is an issue which for a long time has caused considerable feeling in South Wales. This evening I received a long letter from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport concerning the

  1395
  question of changes at Cardiff Docks. In that letter he tells me that the Industrial Association of Wales and Monmouthshire, at its meeting held on 13th June, decided to seek an interview with Sir Brian Robertson
  "to ascertain what progress has been made towards the removal of the alleged anomalies existing in dock charges and railway rates in the South Wales ports."
  I am very glad that decision has been taken, although I believe that the answer could be very quickly given. I am a little surprised to find this in the Parliamentary Secretary's letter, because I have before me a copy of the minutes of the same meeting and there is not a word at all in the minutes of the meeting held on 13th June, at Mount Stewart Square, Cardiff, about the decision to which the hon. Gentleman referred.
  I do not dispute that such a decision was taken. I am only surprised that it was not thought of sufficient importance even to find a place in the minutes of the conference as circulated. The Port of Cardiff has its own customs, as have other ports in the country. One of our misfortunes is that those who ship at Cardiff have to pay a greater proportion of the charge of loading the ship than they would have to pay if they exported from Manchester, Clydeside, London, Plymouth, or almost anywhere else.
  Recently, the Western Mail gave a striking example of the way in which these charges militate against the Port of Cardiff. It said, as an illustration, that if 300 tons of potatoes had to be unloaded it cost £150 less to unload them at Plymouth than it would have cost to unload the same potatoes in the City of Cardiff. Surely these customs that militate against trade at the docks ought now to be changed. I believe that the liner committee, with which consultations have been taking place, has not been forthcoming at all. I believe that the committee is unfair to Cardiff and is inexcusably obstinate in its refusal to change its present attitude to these charges.
  We are now faced with an increased urgency, for we are overshadowed by a general shipping depression. In an article in the Sunday Times, as late as 29th June last, Mr. W. A. Vaughan Reid stated:
  "Although nearly seven million tons gross of merchant dry-cargo and oil-carrying ton-
  1396
  nage is lying idle there are still far too many ships in service."
  He went on to say:
  "The immediate future for merchant shipping is hardly encouraging. Certainly no recovery can be expected this year, and unless unforeseen circumstances intervene, the present depressed conditions could very easily continue over the next two years or so. This poses a serious threat not only to shipowners but also to the numerous allied industries, the most important of these being shipbuilding."
  At Cardiff we have been hit severely by unemployment in our docks. The last published figures, for 16th June, indicated that there were 987 people unemployed in Cardiff Docks, and that of these no fewer than 550 were engaged in the dry docks. Yesterday, when I was in my constituency, I met one man who has been employed by the Dock Labour Board, and he has never registered as unemployed because he comes under the Dock Labour Board. He has had one week's work during the past three months, and the Dock Labour Board figures, as published recently, indicate an appalling state of unemployment among its employees in Cardiff Docks.
  During May, 40 per cent. of our manpower employed by the Dock Labour Board were out of employment, and at no period during the past year have we fallen below 25 per cent. of unemployment among our dock labour. My friends in the trade union movement in Cardiff estimate that the total number of unemployed in Cardiff Docks is now over 1,000, and that the dry docks alone have over 600 unemployed.
  I ask the Minister whether these serious estimates which have been given to me are true. How does trade in the first six months of this year compare with that of 1957? We know that the first 20 weeks of the year showed a fall of 205,695 tons.
  I want to be positive in this Adjournment debate. We have tried to help ourselves. The Cardiff Port Development Association has produced an excellent report, making positive suggestions as to what should be done to relieve our problem in Cardiff. The two most pressing reforms recommended are: first, additional outward sailings to attract exports; and, secondly, more advantageous letting of sites for industry. But this association, which consists of our leading docksmen in the City of Cardiff, goes on to say:
  "Pressure must continue to be exerted to obtain the abolition of those arrangements, customs and obstacles which are prejudicial to

  1397
  the port. Cardiff asks for nothing but to be enabled to compete with other ports on equal terms for the trade which it is economically suited to handle."
  The most disturbing feature of all is the widespread conviction that the British Transport Commission has decided to write off Cardiff as a major port. The Commission recently announced that it proposed to spend on port development nearly £1 million at Swansea, over £1 million at Newport, £265,000 at Barry, and a further large amount at Port Talbot. We welcome this very much indeed, but it is significant that Cardiff is left out. We had to be satisfied with a very dusty reply which the Joint Parliamentary Secretary gave to me in the House on 18th June.
  As reported in the OFFICIAL REPORT, the hon. Gentleman said:
  "… the Commissioners are certainly doing their best …
  That can mean anything or nothing; it depends on what their best is. He continued,
  "… since they were established they have spent a total of £5½ million on improving South Wales ports …. As far as Cardiff is concerned, they have deferred a decision to undertake developments there until they see a greater prospect of an adequate return on the capital."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th June, 1958; Vol. 589, c. 1098.]
  Those words have caused consternation amongst the people who are best informed about Cardiff Docks, for if the Transport Commission refuses to spend on the modernisation of Cardiff Docks, it is clearly writing off a most important, a major, port in the country. We have a right to know whether this is indeed the intention of the Transport Commission. If it is not the Commission's intention to write off Cardiff Docks, what urgent action does it propose to take to save them?
  The Minister gives us answers which are polite. He has done so during the past few months. I wish that the Minister of Transport himself had shown sufficient interest in the Port of Cardiff to share in the debate tonight, because I am speaking for a highly indignant community who are getting tired of being fobbed off with committees or pretty phrases that have no meaning at all. Our people are becoming desperate with the unemployment which persists in Cardiff Docks.
  1398
  What is the answer? I suggest that the Government should be turning their attention to the provision of facilities for new industries that would of themselves increase the export trade at Cardiff. The Treforest and Cardiff trading estates should be considerably developed, because they do not have a sufficient field of export industry behind them. Why not use the dock area for the encouragement of new industries? As for the new steel works which are likely to go to Newport, if they are only halfway between Newport and Cardiff there is plenty of space available and it would certainly be a great help for the importation of iron ore.
  I have only one other point to make. The Minister brushed aside the suggestion which I put to him the other day that a South Wales docks board should be established. He said that we have a docks board. The plain truth is that we are satisfied that we are not getting a fair crack of the whip as compared with other ports administered by the Dock Board.
  These are the reasons why I have taken the liberty of keeping the House at this late hour and of seeking to explain to the Parliamentary Secretary that we expect constructive ideas, greater energy and a greater sense of urgency from his Department than, unhappily, we have had during recent years.
  11.21 p.m.
  Mr. Raymond Gower: I support most of what the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) has said. Large numbers of my constituents who live in the suburban areas of Cardiff work in Cardiff Docks and many of them have written asking me to speak in this debate. In addition, I would make a similar plea on behalf of the docks at Barry, because practically everything which has been said tonight about Cardiff applies with equal force to the Port of Barry. It applies with somewhat less force, I think, to the other ports in South Wales. These are arguments which can in some degree be adduced for all the ports which formerly exported coal, which was the traditional shipment from most of the South Wales ports.
  These are excellent ports. They still have tremendous potentialities and it can be said that they have had, as the hon. Member suggested, a labour record of

  1399
  freedom from strikes and stoppages unequalled in practically every other port or group of ports in the United Kingdom since the war.
  The progressive decline in coal shipments, due partially to the low production of coal throughout the country, including the South Wales area, and, secondly, to the increased demand for coal internally—we must recognise that—means that we have to develop general cargo shipments. I would like briefly to suggest to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary some things which can, and should, be done.
  First, the dock and rail charges should be equalised. Sir Brian Robertson, Chairman of the British Transport Commission, speaking at Cardiff about three years ago, gave an assurance that these ports should be put on an equal footing with other ports of the United Kingdom which are within the Commission's control. If the Commission cannot do this, I submit that it should allow a local committee or dock board to take over which could go into business and offer its own terms. Secondly, the customs at the various docks regarding the allocation of charges between shippers and exporters should be brought into line with the customs at ports in other parts of the United Kingdom.
  The Transport Commission and the Ministry of Transport have a function which they can fulfil, by bringing pressure to bear upon the various shipping lines. I consider it unreasonable that a shipping company should expect a different allocation of charges in one port than obtains in another port. Thirdly, the Transport Commission should consider at an early date the fuller provision of transit sheds, loading equipment and facilities for general cargo than are now available. Next, there could be even greater co-operation with the Board of Trade—I am glad to see my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade present—in attracting new export industries to the hinterland of these ports. There should be closer co-operation with the National Coal Board when coal shipments, imports or exports, are available.
  The coal industry has had a close association with these ports and the industry and the ports have a mutual debt with one another. If coal is available for export, or if it becomes necessary to import coal, I submit that priority should
  1400
  be given to these ports in the moving of it. There should be closer co-operation with the War Office. For example, the S.R.D. situated at Barry does not necessarily export its products through the Port of Barry. My hon. Friend should put to his right hon. Friend the possibility of speeding improvements of the roads to South Wales. The communications with South Wales ports through Newport are still most inadequate and a good deal can be done to help Wales by work on them.
  11.25 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Airey Neave): The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) has most eloquently explained the difficulties of the Port of Cardiff and I think that the House has been much impressed by the way in which he has spoken of them. I am quite certain that what he has said will be drawn to the attention of the British Transport Commission, whose responsibility primarily this question of the development of the Port of Cardiff is. I will, as I have already undertaken, maintain contact with him on a number of points which he has raised on previous occasions.
  I was also very interested in some of the suggestions put by my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower). I welcome the assistance of hon. Members in this very difficult matter, which the Commission has to tackle, of the future of the port. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade is also here tonight and he has certainly been listening with attention to what has been said.
  The Government do not in any way wish to minimise the difficulties of the Port of Cardiff. Let me make that quite clear from the start. These arise, as the hon. Member said, basically from the change in the pattern of United Kingdom trade. Before the war all five of the major South Wales ports tended to specialise in coal exports, and the volume of those has fallen drastically. In 1938, coal exports from the United Kingdom were over 38 million tons a year. They are now running at 10 million tons a year. In 1938, the coal exports from Cardiff alone were 5 million tons; they are running now at well under 500,000 tons a year. A drop of this magnitude obviously is very difficult to offset.

  1401
  These problems are very serious. I should be misleading hon. Members if I gave the impression that there was any easy solution of them. I do not think that the hon. Member for Cardiff, West thinks the problems are easy. What he wants to know is how far I can say the Commission will tackle them. I will deal with the position of the Commission in a moment, but I want to make this general point clear.
  Ports exist to serve trade, and this tends to flow in established channels, and it takes some time to redirect it. Trade cannot lightly or easily be redirected. It is not, in this case, possible deliberately to direct traffic to the Port of Cardiff. Shipowners and shippers, generally speaking, are free to use the ports which suit them best, though that does not mean they cannot be open to persuasion, but it is quite clear that that is the real problem which confronts the Commission and all those who have the interests of the South Wales ports, and the Port of Cardiff in particular, at heart.
  As to the suggestion made by the hon. Member that there ought to be a South Wales dock board as the best method of administration—
  Mr. G. Thomas: I want to make it clear that although I advanced this suggestion it was not my own idea, but that of Mr. Percy James, who is a prominent industrialist in the Cardiff dock area.
  Mr. Neave: I examined that idea when I answered a Question that the hon. Member put in the House on 18th June. The South Wales ports are already administered as one unit. I have examined this matter carefully, and, frankly, I do not believe that it would improve the administrative system. I do not think that I have anything to add to what I said then.
  It would be unfair to suggest that the Government, and the Commission, in particular, are indifferent to what is happening in Cardiff. Since the war, the Commission has reorganised and reequipped a good many things in Cardiff, including its central workshops. It has improved craneage and carried out important schemes of electrification of which the hon. Member will be aware. Some major developments have been carried out by private industry,
  1402
  principally by the Guest, Keen Iron and Steel Company in the provision of new cranes and ancillary equipment and by Mount Stuart Dry Docks Limited. I know that there has been disappointment at Cardiff, but so far the Commission has not been able to undertake a major development scheme there.
  The hon. Member said that people were dismayed when, in answer to his supplementary question, I remarked, as I felt bound to do, that the Commission had to have a return on its capital, but this is a matter for commercial judgment. I emphasise that Sir Brian Robertson has said that the Commission has not closed the door on possibilities of developments in Cardiff. I shall draw Sir Brian's attention to what the hon. Member has said tonight, but one has to bear in mind the financial position of the Commission itself and the strenuous efforts that it is making to improve its results.
  I was also asked about employment, I think that the hon. Member was referring specifically to the registered dock labour in Cardiff. This is, of course, largely a case of under-employment. Labour requirements fluctuate from day to day and week to week and the general position is that there is not enough cargo handling to go round. The figure which the hon. Member quoted for June was quite correct. I have other figures. I will try to break down the figures of under-employment in the wet docks and in ship repairing. I have not been able to get those details by today, but I will supply them to the hon. Member as soon as possible.
  As for ship repairs, Cardiff, like many other ship-repairing ports, is certainly affected by the present world recession in shipping requirements but we take the view that this is more of a temporary position. It is interesting to note that there are proposals for a new ship-repair berth and tank-cleaning plant to be constructed in the Roath base in Cardiff. I hope that the hon. Member will think that is good news.
  I have written today to the hon. Member about dock charges. It is a difficult question which, of course, is under discussion. As I understand, the disadvantage to the South Wales ports lies not in the total cost of loading general cargo

  1403
  but in the way charges are borne between shippers and ship owners. It is the custom of the port, and the present method can be changed only by agreement among the interests concerned. The Commission has always expressed itself willing to consider concrete examples. The hon. Member told me that the fact that the Committee of the Industrial Association of Wales and Monmouthshire had decided to seek an interview with the Commission was not in the minutes. I have discovered that the Committee wrote to my Department and had said that it sought an interview with the Commission. That probably explains the mystery. That is
  1404
  how I obtained the information and how I supplied it to the hon. Member. It is a very good thing that it is doing that.
  The problem of charges is very intricate and I hope that we shall be able to do something through our good offices to make a solution possible. I have told the hon. Member that we shall continue with our good offices not only through my Department, but perhaps through other Government Departments. On the industrial points, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade is here and will have heard what has been said.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes to Twelve o'clock.

ROYAL NAVY
  Defence (Central Organisation)
  Defence (Central Organisation)
BRITISH ARMY
  Strategic Reserve
  Strategic Reserve
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  Programmes (Balance)
  Programmes (Balance)
  Morecambe and Lonsdale
  Morecambe and Lonsdale
  Hastings
  Hastings
TRANSPORT
  Railway Stations (Taxi-cab Ranks)
  Railway Stations (Taxi-cab Ranks)
  Motor Cyclists (Road Safety Survey)
  Motor Cyclists (Road Safety Survey)
  Transport Users' Consultative Committees (Composition)
  Transport Users' Consultative Committees (Composition)
ROADS
  Motorways (Regulations)
  Motorways (Regulations)
  Great North Road, Doncaster
  Great North Road, Doncaster
  Severn Bridge
  Severn Bridge
  New Bolingbroke (Speed Limit)
  New Bolingbroke (Speed Limit)
  Copenhagen Street, Islington (Pedestrian Crossing)
  Copenhagen Street, Islington (Pedestrian Crossing)
  HUNGARY (UNITED NATIONS SPECIAL COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
  HUNGARY (UNITED NATIONS SPECIAL COMMITTEE'S REPORT)
EMPLOYMENT
  Bristol Commercial Vehicles, Limited
  Bristol Commercial Vehicles, Limited
  King's Cross, Holloway and Islington
  King's Cross, Holloway and Islington
CANADA
  Immigration Service (Assisted Passage Loans)
  Immigration Service (Assisted Passage Loans)
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  No. 12 Maintenance Unit, Kirkbride
  No. 12 Maintenance Unit, Kirkbride
  No. 41 Group (Aircraft Maintenance and Repairs)
  No. 41 Group (Aircraft Maintenance and Repairs)
  Aircraft Storage Units (Closure)
  Aircraft Storage Units (Closure)
  Transport Command (Cyprus Airlift)
  Transport Command (Cyprus Airlift)
ADEN
  Official Archives
  Official Archives
EDUCATION
  Expenditure
  Expenditure
COLONIAL TERRITORIES
  Revenue
  Revenue
  Population
  Population
MALAYA
  Police (Mr. Dyke Campbell Hill)
  Police (Mr. Dyke Campbell Hill)
BAHAMAS
  Education
  Education
  Wages
  Wages
HOSPITALS
  Physiotherapists
  Physiotherapists
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  National Health Service (Private Patients)
  National Health Service (Private Patients)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Public Open Spaces (Grants)
  Public Open Spaces (Grants)
SCOTLAND
  St. Andrews University Extension (Local Inquiry)
  St. Andrews University Extension (Local Inquiry)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Brussels Exhibition (British Section)
  Brussels Exhibition (British Section)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Local Authorities (Expenditure)
  Local Authorities (Expenditure)
  Government Expenditure
  Government Expenditure
  Social Services (Expenditure)
  Social Services (Expenditure)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

THE LORD ROBINS
Sir Thomas Ellis Robins, K.B.E., D.S.O., E.D., having been created Baron Robins, of Rhodesia and of Chelsea in the County of London—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
THE LORD POOLE
Oliver Brian Sanderson Poole, Esquire, C.B.E., having been created Baron Poole, of Aldgate in the City of London—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
ROYAL SCHOOL FOR DEAF CHILDREN MARGATE BILL
Read 3a with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

CLAPHAM COMMON ROAD WORKS
2.55 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how much longer they expect the very popular motor route into London which runs round the south and west sides of Clapham Common to be blocked by road works.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, the motor route into London which runs round the south and west sides of Clapham Common was reopened to traffic last Wednesday.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his information, which will be greeted with great joy by those who frequently and those who infrequently use it.

ALTERNATIVE TENDERS FOR ROAD CONSTRUCTION
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government if the main contractor for the construction of the London—Birmingham motorway was asked to, requested to or in fact did, submit alternative tenders upon the basis of cost and time of completion; if so, what was the difference in time and cost between the two tenders and whether the same principle could be adopted in the tendering for the construction of the Oxford Western by-pass, in view of the fact that the London—Birmingham motorway of 53 miles containing 129 fly-overs, under-passes, bridges, etc., is to be completed in nineteen months and the Oxford Western by-pass of 3½ miles with five bridges and one viaduct is to take twenty-eight months.]
LORD MANCROFT: Alternative tenders for the first 53 miles of the London—Birmingham motorway and for the St. Albans By-pass were invited for completion by 31st October, 1959, and 31st October, 1960. After considering all the factors involved, especially that the shorter period would enable the contracts to be let on a fixed price basis, my right honourable friend, the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, decided that the balance of advantage lay in accepting the tenders for the earlier date, although they were slightly higher.
It is unlikely that similar conditions calling for alternative dates will frequently occur again, as experience on the motorway contracts has shown that this sort of project can be carried out in a relatively short period and there would be little point in troubling contractors to provide alternative tenders for longer periods. Many major road projects have, however, some limiting factor—such as the viaduct over a canal, railway, and the A.40 road in the Oxford Western by-pass proposal, as I explained in my reply to the noble Lord's supplementary question on July 2 —which effectively determines the period of the contract.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, in asking the noble Lord to accept my thanks for the helpful nature of his reply, may I also commend the business acumen of the Minister in offering incentives to road contractors to complete the road works of this country in the shortest possible space of time? May I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government still accept the principle which was laid down by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, when he led your Lordships' House, that it was the policy of Her Majesty's Government to complete the ring roads around Oxford in the shortest possible space of time? And would not the shortest possible space of time naturally bring the Oxford ring road into the category that the noble Lord has just mentioned of priority road works?
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, it might possibly bring it into that category, but there is also the question of cost and convenience to be considered. in this particular case of the Oxford ring road, the unusual set of circumstances, of which the noble Lord is well aware, make it necessary to deal with it in a slightly different way from the main motorway that we have been discussing.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Would the noble Lord be kind enough to ask his right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to give serious consideration to whether the relief of traffic congestion in Oxford would not warrant such treatment upon this project?
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, my right honourable friend has heard of the traffic congestion in Oxford, and had this point in mind when he made his decision.
LORD SALTER: My Lords, might I ask the noble Lord to recognise and to impress upon his colleague in the other place that if the difficulties are in some respects special in Oxford the reasons for expediting and completing the whole of the by-pass ring around Oxford are also very special and exceptional?
LORD MANCROFT: Yes, my Lords, my right honourable friend is well aware of those facts.

FACILITIES ON OXFORD WESTERN BY-PASS
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government if they will ensure that in the construction of the Oxford Western by-pass provision will be made for public conveniences, places for refreshment and petrol service stations so as to make it unnecessary for vehicles and passengers to enter Oxford for the purpose of using such facilities, thereby ensuring that the by-pass will make a maximum contribution to the relief of traffic congestion in Oxford and whether Her Majesty's Government will further see that such facilities do not disturb the amenities of the surrounding countryside.]
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, while my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation is anxious that the Oxford ring roads, when completed, will be used by through traffic to the greatest possible extent, he has no power to make provision for facilities such as public conveniences, places for refreshment and petrol service stations on roads other than Special Roads, such as the London-Yorkshire motorway. I understand, however, that the whole question of wayside facilities for traffic using the Oxford ring roads is being studied at present by the local authorities concerned and the Oxford Preservation Trust. My right honourable friend is keeping in close touch with these discussions.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, again I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply, but will he accept from me that one of the prime reasons why coach proprietors say that they must take their coaches through Oxford is because Birmingham and the West Midlands are situated at a distance from Oxford that makes the utilisation of the facilities I have mentioned in my Question of paramount importance? As this Western by-pass at Oxford is a trunk road and therefore will rank for 100 per cent. grant from the Ministry, on the very sound principle that the man who pays the piper has some right to call the tune, will the Minister utilise his bargaining power

1123
with the local authorities in regard to the facilities I have mentioned?
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I accept almost anything from the noble Lord. Will he accept from me the fact that the traffic value of by-passes must not be impaired by unnecessary roadside developments? Obviously, what we have to do is to find a halfway house —if that is not rather an unfortunate metaphor—and I am certain that in due course a correct solution will be arrived at.
LORD SALTER: My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware of what I think I may say is the definite opinion of the public authorities concerned with the region of Oxford: that the danger of any interference with the flow of traffic, in the particular Oxford problem, is negligible in relation to the importance of attracting traffic, which would otherwise go through the centre of Oxford, on to these by-passes? May I ask him, in communicating with his right honourable friend, to call attention to the results of a small unofficial conference, over which, as it happened, I presided yesterday in Oxford, which had members from all the public local authorities concerned, where the opinion I have just expressed was very strongly stated?
LORD MANCROFT: Yes, my Lords, I will certainly do what my noble friend wishes.

THE AIRCRAFT INDUSTRY
3.3 p.m.
VISCOUNT DE L'ISLE VISCOUNT DE L'ISLE rose to draw attention to the prospects of the aircraft industry; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I have thought for some time that your Lordships' House ought to have an opportunity of discussing this highly important and, as I think, rather urgent question of the future of the British aircraft industry. I cannot claim any special knowledge. I am not an aviator—though I have taken an aeroplane up in the air and brought it down in one piece—and I am not a manufacturer. In this matter, if I may without impertinence plagiarise General de Gaulle, "Je suis un home seul." But I hope for the powerful support of noble Lords who have far
1124
more knowledge of this industry than I can ever have. My interest first arose, I confess, from the four years during which I had the honour to sit at the Air Ministry when I was very much taken with what I may call the romance of manned and powered flight.
I thought, and still think, that this is a splendid field of endeavour, well adapted to our national talents. The uniting of the imagination of the designer, the knowledge and devotion of the scientist, with the courage and adventurous spirit of the test pilot is an enterprise well worth while. But what of the future? The aircraft industry, as we know, has in its relatively short career seen violent fluctuations. We are happy to see in the world with us still some of the people whose names were household names forty years ago as pioneers of this industry. Sometimes the industry has been pressed by the Government of the day to produce in large numbers, from plants which were quite inadequate, newer and faster and better aircraft. At other times the industry has had to subsist on small orders eked out for a small Royal Air Force.
I feel that the industry is in for a new lean period, when manufactureres will be occupied not so much with maintaining the impetus and pace of technological advance as in the grim task of economic survival. I am not worried for the investor in this or that company. Indeed, an acceleration of the process which may be brought about by the impending situation may thereby lead some firms to seek an even larger measure of diversification. This, from the point of view of the investor, might be financially more profitable than concentration on the actual business of aircraft construction. What I fear for is the national interest. I fear for the air power of this country, unless the industry which supports it is progressive and prosperous. I fear the wider effects upon industry at large.
The aircraft industry is one of three or four main industries in which, my scientific friends tell me, it is vital to our national future that we should gain and maintain a leading position. There is nuclear energy. That is the subject of a public authority. I think that that was a wise measure on the part of Sir Winston Churchill's Administration. Great sums have been spent, and are being spent, on research and development, as well as upon the actual construction of power

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stations and ancillary equipment. There is the chemical engineering industry. in that industry, private enterprise has managed (ii is notable in the case of one very large firm), in the price it charges for its products, to provide a sufficient sum of money to carry on a vast programme of research and development which has in the past enabled it, and I hope will continue to do so, to keep in the van of progress in this field.
There is the field of electronics, a new and exciting industry, where there is an increasing demand for the products of firms who manufacture electronic gear. I feel there is good hope that they too will be able to recover, in the price of their machines, sufficient to keep up the impetus of their research programme. Then there is the aircraft engineering business. Of all these industries, I am told—and I believe this to be true—that it is in the aircraft industry that the demand for ploughing back money in research and development is the most insistent. Sums of 20 to 30 per cent. of turnover are necessary if we wish to reach and keep the leading place in the aeronautical field. Of course, the economic position of that great industry is far different from the position of the other industries that I have already enumerated. The pace of development of aeronautics, certainly in the postwar world, has been the result of these fierce power rivalries which since the advent of nuclear fission and fusion, have made plain the immense importance of air power in the modern power complex.
These exceedingly rapid developments, both of engines and airframes have hitherto been met, in effect, out of public monies. It is the same in the United States; it is the same in Russia. The civil operators have managed, as a result of the opportunities thus afforded, to purchase from the constructors of civil aircraft, whose overheads have largely been met out of the development and construction contracts for military aircraft. I need cite only one current example: the American Boeing 707, which was, I understand, the child of the Boeing tanker aircraft provided for the United States Air Force in large numbers; and that, in turn, was the development of the B.52 bomber.
This is not a strategic debate, and I do not propose to trench upon that ground. But it is necessary to look at
1126
the Defence White Paper of 1957, The Outline of Future Policy and, in particular, at two paragraphs. Paragraph 61 states:
"Having regard to the high performance and potentialities of the Vulcan and Victor medium bombers and the likely progress of ballistic rockets and missile defence"—
and these are the words to which I would draw attention—
" the Government have decided not to go on with the development of a supersonic manned bomber, which could not be brought into service in much under ten years."
Paragraph 62 states:
"In view of the good progress already made "—
that is, in the development of ground-to-air missiles—
" the Government have come to the conclusion that the Royal Air Force are unlikely to have a requirement for fighter aircraft of types more advanced than the supersonic P1, and work on such projects will stop."
As I said, I do not propose to discuss the strategic background of those statements, except to say that I entirely disagree with them both. But whether we agree or disagree, both the United States and Russia are going ahead with the development of supersonic aircraft. The United Kingdom industry, on the other hand, since publication of the 1957 Defence White Paper, has been on notice that it can expect no further help from the most advanced developments of military aircraft for the Royal Air Force. According to my calculation, that leaves only the possibility of further aircraft for Coastal Command; possibly a further ground attack and/or reconnaissance type; and, finally, large transports. If I am right, the Royal Air Force will wither away (to use the Marxist expression) as a leading exponent of the art and science of the most advanced manned aircraft.
If Her Majesty's Government have further plans, and if my calculations and deductions are wrong, I hope that we may hear so to-day. But I feel bound to assume that the Royal Air Force is unable to issue more operational requirements for advanced conceptions. So the design teams of our great manufacturers are warned to look or to go elsewhere. Where are they to look? To the export market for military aircraft? I do not think the fate of the Saunders-Roe fighter (I think it is the 177), with its highly ingenious mixed power propulsion,

1127
is a great encouragement to manufacturers to do that. I do not know what went on between Governments and firms. I should be interested to know whether the Government went out to help that firm to sell the type to the Germans or other of our N.A.T.O. Allies. But it is unlikely that foreign Governments will order types of aircraft for which our own Government have placed no orders. If then, there are no Government plans in this direction, it means that the military market for aircraft is lost and that we shall be living on our capital. Our industry has made great strides, and the figures for exports of aircraft goods are most encouraging, until we look to the future.
So there is left the transport field. I am sure that in eight to ten years we shall see in service supersonic civil aircraft. Is this the field in which the United Kingdom industry must "maintain a leading position"? (to quote the words of the Minister of Supply). If it is, I ask: how is it to compete with the United States? The United States will have the "lead in" of at least one type —and possibly more than one type—of supersonic bomber. Do Her Majesty's Government consider it feasible for our industry in this country to produce a supersonic transport without that "lead in"? If they think that, let us hear so; and let us hear why. The aircraft industry, with the best will in the world —and I think it has shown its patriotism in two wars—will derive no inspiration from imprecise ministerial declarations of hope and will receive no spur from the implied threat to withdraw Government facilities if it does not do what the Government want it to do.
We have in this field the unhappy precedent of the Comet. How much better it would have been, in the event, had a development of that aircraft, possibly not so advanced as the civil version, gone into service with Royal Air Force Transport Command, to have the "bugs flown out of it" if I may use a colloquialism! With the competition from across the Atlantic, is it likely that the industry can (again to quote the words of the Minister of Supply) "progressively assume financial responsibility" for research? I am reliably informed that it may cost as much as £l5 million to develop the engines for a new subsonic
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airliner. Can the research and development costs of such an enterprise be recovered over a small domestic market? Is that a fair commercial proposition, and one which would enable the industry "progressively to assume" further liability for research?
What plans have Her Majesty's Government for enlarging the field? What are they doing in Europe? Are they seeking the co-ordination of the European industries, so that together we may produce, in competition with the great complexes of Russia and the United States? What an opportunity, both for the coherence of the manufacturing industries and the enlargement of the market for civil and military aircraft! At the moment we have certain advantages. We have well-proved design teams still working away, as I know in two or three instances, on most advanced projects. We have some of the best engine manufacturers in the world. But these advantages will pass. I beg the Government to see what can be done while the opportunities are here.
I must confess that I am not greatly encouraged by what I hear about what has recently been done in the military field. I should like to know, for instance, what is happening about a ground attack fighter which can take off with a short run, possibly with a supersonic performance. Is N.A.T.O. looking to us, or looking elsewhere—possibly to Italy? I see all the signs in this of a lack of a continuous Government theme for the aircraft industry. There is, I believe, within the Government circle no unifying force, and policy is fragmented between the various Ministers: the Secretary of State for Air, the Minister of Supply, the First Lord of the Admiralty, the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, the Minister of Defence, and possibly the Lord President of the Council. Either we need an authoritative external body to advise the Prime Minister, or there should be a Minister responsible for all the developments of aircraft, civil and military, and possibly taking in nuclear power as well.
There are many distinguished speakers on the list to-day, and I will not detain the House much longer. I should, however, like just to summarise what I have said by putting certain questions, of which I have given Her Majesty's

1129
Government notice. The first question I should like to ask is: Do the Government still consider that there is no foreseeable need for a further development of a manned supersonic fighter? Secondly, do the Government consider that it is possible to sell abroad military aircraft of types for which there are no orders domestically; and, in particular, what steps did the Government take to help the manufacturers sell the Saunders-Roe fighter 177?
Thirdly, do Her Majesty's Government consider that there is a need for a ground attack and/or reconnaissance aircraft for the Royal Air Force; and, if so, is such an aircraft on order and will it be supersonic? Fourthly, do the Government consider that it will be possible to develop a supersonic civil aircraft without first constructing a supersonic bomber and/or tanker for the Royal Air Force? Fifthly, do Her Majesty's Government consider it will be economically possible to recover the research and development cost of any large civil aircraft for which a certain market is limited to one or both of the civil Corporations or by the Royal Air Force for Transport Command? Sixthly, and finally, what steps have been taken by the Government to co-ordinate the British aircraft industry with the industries of the leading N.A.T.O. Powers in Europe, so as to provide both the civil and military aircraft with a market of economic size which could support a fully equipped and progressive European aircraft industry? Shakespeareans will recall that Glendower said:
" I can call spirits from the vasty deep."
to which Hotspur cautiously answered:
" Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? "
My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.23 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, this debate takes place against a background of events in the Middle East of a very serious nature, and it is an anxious time for us all. For that reason I think the debate is opportune, for unless we have an efficient and enterprising aircraft industry we shall indeed be in danger. I am pleased that the noble Viscount, with his experience as Secretary of State for Air, has put clown this Motion at this
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particular moment. The questions he has asked in the interesting speech which he has made are those which no Government can brush aside; they call for an answer.
In the last few years the aircraft industry has been subject to constant change, and it has, as the noble Viscount so rightly implied, a highly uncertain future, at any rate in this country. At the moment the industry is to a large extent rudderless: it is not getting a clear lead from anyone. This, in my opinion, was the underlying note in the speech of the noble Viscount. The structure of the industry, as many of your Lordships know, is that there are some 200 firms in the aircraft industry, large and small —air-frame manufacturers, aero-engine manufacturers and makers of accessories —employing some 254.000 workers. Nevertheless, in spite of the large number of firms, many of which are quite small, about six of them are responsible for between 80 and 90 per cent, of the total output. The need for so many small firms can be seen from the fact that a modern jet bomber needs something like 40,000 different parts.
The exports of the industry run at some £150 million a year, and the Government have forecast a run-down of this industry over the next five years from 254,000 workers to 150,000, a serious diminution. They also feel that three or four air-frame, and two aero-engine firms, are all that the potential business can sustain. That is on their view of what the potential business should be—a view that is, of course, very different from the view of the noble Viscount who has just addressed us. The Government see the role of the industry in this country as that of providing for their total war needs by the manufacture of ballistic missiles. These, of course, will be manufactured, and have been manufactured, only by a comparatively small number of large firms. So far as the limited war needs are concerned, the Government see manned aircraft against opportunity targets, fighters and bombers; support of ground troops; reconnaissance aircraft and transport and supply, and then, rather nebulously in the background, is civil aviation and its needs. I agree with the noble Viscount that the Government are underestimating the position of the aircraft industry in this country and of the needs of defence. But, as he said,

1131
this is hardly the debate to go into the second proposition.
I would remind your Lordships, however, that the aircraft industry is a very important one, not only to ourselves but to the Commonwealth. It is a suitable one for this country, because it employs highly skilled craftsmen and also makes the maximum use of imported raw materials. But it is true to say, I think, that if the industry has to look to civil aviation, as the Government suppose, for its main customers, then its field is restricted, because the expense of meeting these needs is enormous unless there is a military potential. It is a highly competitive and not always very fairly competitive field, and the number of aircraft needed at any one time is not great. In view of the large number of highly expert speakers who have indicated their intention to speak in the debate, I do not propose to be long today. But there are some questions that I should like to ask, in addition to those asked by the noble Viscount. I think your Lordships will see that to some extent they link up with the questions he has asked. They are not so much separate questions as different facets of the general questions to which the aircraft industry wishes to have an answer.
In the first place, my noble friend Lord Pakenham and I have for some years past from these Benches urged the Government to have an independent inquiry into the needs of the industry. In the first few years of our pressure we were fobbed off by the reply that no inquiry was needed; that the aircraft industry was perfectly able to think out for itself what its needs were, and, that any inquiry would be adding, as it were, insult to injury. Within the last year however, we were told that perhaps an inquiry was needed, but that it would be an inter-departmental inquiry. That means, of course, that nothing would come out which people did not want to come out, and that the views of the Department would have full weight. So an inter-departmental inquiry was ordered. So far as one can judge, that inquiry is now meandering around; it does not appear to have made any published report, and it has yielded nothing that can lessen the confusion which is at present so apparent in this subject.
1132
My first question, then, is: Will the Government appoint an independent high-level Committee to inquire into the construction and situation of the aircraft industry? As the noble Viscount told us, there have been two White Papers on Defence, as well as an important statement by the Minister of Supply on May 13, and a speech by him in another place on May 22. The result of these speeches, statements and White Papers has been not to clarify the situation but, to some extent, to confuse it. On June 20 last Sir Frederick Handley Page, who, as we all know, is a very experienced aircraft manufacturer, issued this statement, and I quote from the Daily Telegraph which published it:
"The various official statements that have been made, both within and outside the House of Commons, need now to be translated into more precise specification terms so that the British aircraft industry can organise itself accordingly. When such requirements are known in relation to its civil aircraft commitments and opportunities, the industry can go ahead with such reorganisation, if any, which may seem desirable to improve its technical productive and financial resources."
The report goes on to say:
"It was unreasonable to expect firms regarded as too big for the likely amount of aviation work, to re-group themselves into even more powerful and productive units, if they were not enabled to assess the work for them to do in the future."
So I would put this question: Will the Government give a clear, practical policy lead to the industry, in precise and detailed terms, as to its future, because it is quite obvious from what Sir Frederick Handley Page has said that up to now those concerned in it have not had that practical detailed lead which is the only one upon which they can work.
Another important question was touched on by the noble Viscount to-day when he raised the problem of whether it is possible to provide the necessary research and development for the supersonic airliners and aircraft of the future if we are not to have research into the supersonic bomber of the future. We have made that point from this side on more than one occasion; it has been made in other parts of the House, too. It is clear, I think, from the statement of the Minister on May 13 that he has to some extent cleared up the position. I do not say that I agree with the decision, but we know a little more now of the Government's intention, because the Government

1133
say that they will pay for research on military aircraft and guided missiles—and if they will not, nobody else will—and, further, that they will continue aeronautical research for a certain period at about the same level as at present for civil aviation.
Then the Minister went on to make this statement. He said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 588 (No. 108), col. 232]:
" As civil research becomes more and more identifiable, then the cost of that research will be passed in course of time on to the industry itself, although the actual execution of the research may well still be done in a Government establishment."
If I were a director (which I am not) of an aircraft company, I should be rather perturbed by that statement; I should be rather confused about it. "As civil reseach becomes more and more identifiable —what exactly does that mean? It does not seem to me to be English. Does it mean "as it becomes separable from military research "? As we all know, it is very difficult to put research into different compartments; research is research. Since this is one of the statements upon which the industry is expected to base its future and its research expenditure, I think we ought to have from the Government a more precise indication of their views. Will the Minister clarify this important statement of the Minister of Supply?
Other Commonwealth countries, of course, are vitally affected by our decisions here. Unfortunately, just lately there has been some misunderstanding over the supply of British aircraft to Commonwealth countries. I have to mention the situation in which the Tasman Airways found themselves when they were anxious, as I understand it, to buy British aircraft but had pressure brought to bear on them to take American aircraft, because certain inducements were held out in the military sphere by the Americans if they took civil aircraft. That is what is being said. I would ask the Government to discuss with the other Commonwealth countries at the forthcoming Commonwealth Conference the general problems of the supply of aircraft.
There are two other questions I have to ask. Obviously, noise is a big factor to the population in the neighbourhood of airfields, as we know only too well. There are at the moment, as I understand it, no international standards with regard
1134
to noise, and it is difficult to get international standards, or, indeed, any standards at all. It is an entirely new subject, but it has been brought to the fore by the jet aircraft coming into operation, and particularly the Russian aircraft TU104. I have not discussed this matter with my noble friend Lord Douglas of Kirtleside—I am raising it "off my own bat"—but, as I understand it, he was hoping to have this summer the first link with Moscow so far as an outside civil airline was concerned. Owing, however, to the fact that the TU104 is not permitted as yet to land at London Airport, Sabena have been able to make the first contact, and other airlines may follow suit. So B.E.A. is unable to obtain this traffic. Other European competitors are able to obtain it, because the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation here do not take the same view on the amount of permissible noise that the Ministries of Aviation in other countries do. That may have a serious effect on our own aircraft industry and on our own jets. It is a matter which the Government should take up on an urgent and international basis. The question of noise from jet aircraft should be considered by the international board which deals with these matters and a ruling obtained, so that we are all alike and on the same basis.
My last question deals with Transport Command. It has now approximately 100 four-engined aircraft. Those are Blackburns, Beverleys, Comet Il's and Hastings. There are on order eight Beverleys and twenty Britannias. At present, and to a large extent even when the new aircraft come into service, they are inadequate for the needs of the Forces. Just lately in the airlifts in both Suez and Cyprus, we had to call in Coastal Command Shackletons; and in the case of the recent Cyprus airlift we had to call in chartered aircraft in addition to the Shackletons. The chartered aircraft made eight charter flights.
This is no new subject, as the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, knows. We have raised it on many occasions for several years past. We think this reliance on charter companies is dangerous. You cannot rely on them, and there is no reason why you should rely on them. You cannot expect them to provide the sort of aircraft that are needed to supply our Forces and to transport them and

1135
their equipment. For years past we have been begging the Government to build up its own fleet. They have to some extent accepted that proposition and have ordered these Britannias and Beverleys, and they have also got the squadron of Comets. But in our view on this side they have not gone far enough yet. They want more aircraft, and aircraft of a larger type, which can deal with the problems they have to face. In normal times these aircraft can do trooping and in abnormal times they will be ready to give a powerful airlift. So my last question is: will the Government build up Transport Command by giving it a sufficient quantity of long-range, trans-ocean, heavy load-carrying aircraft, so as to transport troops, their equipment and supplies to the places where they are needed? My Lords, once more may I say how grateful I am to the noble Viscount for bringing before us this important subject at a time of great anxiety.
3.40 p.m.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: My Lords, we have had two delightful speeches, and it is indeed, I think most refreshing to find that the feelings on this matter on both sides of the House are more or less the same. This industry is peculiar, and I think some people might indeed ask, "Why should we help it when we do not help others?" I think the answer is twofold. First of all, it is a wonderful form of export. We get £15 for every 1 lb. in weight of aircraft we sell; whereas we get only a few shillings on a motor car. Our exports during last year amounted to £116 million and this year it is anticipated that the figure will be £155 million. Those are considerable figures. We are exporting brains and workmanship and not a lot of material, and that is the best form of export we can indulge in. But, apart from that purely material side, there is the prestige side which we must never forget, because as aircraft touch down all over the world they really are ambassadors of this country and they show to the whole world what this country is capable of producing. The natives marvel, quite rightly, at the ingenuity of the British engineer. That, surely, is a thing which we should help.
Of course, nobody is going to deny that this particular science is a very restless one. As I have said before, there
1136
never has been a successful aeroplane which was not obsolescent by the time it became successful. Trees do not grow to the skies, but we have a long way to go before we get to a stopping point in the development of aircraft. Let me first speak about what one might call the blue riband type—that is, generally, the fastest machine across the Atlantic. We hold that proud position to-day with the Britannia, which is far and away the best aircraft crossing the Atlantic. It has got over its "teething" troubles and is behaving exceedingly well. But, of course, there are coming in very shortly the great American jet aircraft which have been produced on the experiences we had with the Comet. They are going to be most interesting. For myself, I am not particularly happy about that situation.
When you look into the question of accidents you will find that 80 per cent. of the accidents are due to pilots' errors, and here we are going to ask these hardworking, skilful people to take on even more difficult tasks in flying machines which go much faster and land at the appalling speed of nearly 140 knots. When you think of men having, day after day, often in rain and partial fog, and at night, to bring down on to the tarmac these machines carrying 140 lives, it is a tremendous responsibility that we put upon them. These machines need enormous runways—up to 3,000 and 5,000 yards, which we can ill afford except at our big cities.
I am glad that my noble friend mentioned the question of noise. I see that the Minister was criticised the other day for having talks with America. I cannot see that he did anything wrong there. All he was doing was to see what was the American attitude relative to their own machines at a New York airport. He was only saying that if they were going to say that the noise was too much, we should stand by them. I think that that is a reasonable thing to do. One of the troubles about this industry is that you cannot make these great machines at an economic price unless you get fairly substantial orders. They are tremendously expensive, and I do not think that the Government could help the industry more than by going on with that oft-repeated plea that Transport Command should fit themselves with the most up-to-date machines and in large quantities.

1137
Let us just see what is done in America. We are all familiar with the Stratocruiser. It is not a very popular machine. It is used by B.O.A.C., North West, and Pan-America, but nobody would say that necessarily it is a wonderful aeroplane. Yet the United States Air Force ordered 800 of them. It is a very easy thing to produce aircraft for export all over the world when you have as a background an order of 800 for your own Government. The great firm of Vickers are now, somewhat belatedly, attempting to rival these new American aircraft—and good luck to them ! I think they are approaching it from a design point of view in a most imaginative way, and with their quaint, curious, revolutionary design, they may be able to come down at less speed and get off at a lower speed. I think that that will occur. But where we are going to get sufficient orders to justify that enterprise, I still do not know. My noble friend Lord Ogmore said that the Dominions are not really rallying round us in the way that might be expected. The story of dear New Zealand and the way they were frustrated in getting the machines they wanted is a story which we do not want to tell here, but it is indeed a sad one.
Some years ago I was made head of a committee which tried to express to the Government users' requirements for civil aviation. I must say I thought we did our job pretty well. But the situation is still there to-day as to what are the long-term users' requirements. They ought to be studied out by a committee of high standing. I mention just a few of the departments which are closely concerned—the Ministry of Supply, the Ministry of Transport, Transport Command, B.O.A.C., B.E.A., and the charter companies; and I should like to see the Dominions in that also. As Chairman of the Air Registration Board I should like to make a plea for ourselves to be on that committee, because we are responsible to the State for the safe construction of aeroplanes. We do not want to be a brake on progress, but if revolutionary designs come in, we on the Board must know, by virtue of basic research, whether a thing is or is not suitable and safe, otherwise we cannot certify it and we become a brake upon progress. That I should greatly dislike to see. I know it is politically one of those impossible things, but
1138
I should have liked to see the Opposition in upon that long-range programme, so that it could be an agreed long-range programme. When I say that, I and all the aircraft industry, remember with gratitude the services of those Ministers of Civil Aviation who sit on the opposite Benches in both Houses; they rendered great service to us at a time when we sadly needed it.
Now these supersonic machines are to be developed. There is a tremendous amount to be done. There is the development of the aircraft which will get off in a short run, the development of the vertical take-off machine and, of course, the "hardy annual" which is always with us—what is called the replacement of the D.C.3, though we have never got one yet. Then there is the vast field of freighters and crop sprayers; and I believe we have entirely forgotten the private man's aeroplane. I quite admit that this country is not very suitable for the private machine; but overseas and in some of our Dominions there is going to be a big market for that type of aircraft. Only yesterday I was shown particulars of an organisation in North America from which one can hire a plane to fly oneself in the same way as one would hire a motor car. When it has got to that pitch in America it really is a developing market; and although I quite agree that this country is unsuitable for that, it should go very well in our Dominions as an export.
A word about helicopters: some of our firms in this country have done good work along those lines, although a little late, but here we have, from one of the great firms—Fairey's—the Rotodyne, which is a very useful development and is certainly years ahead of anything else that has been dreamed of, to carry 38 to 40 passengers. That should be a world winner, and I should like to know from Her Majesty's Government whether they are prepared to support that right to the very end, because I believe that if we can get through with that particular machine we shall have an export of tremendous value.
I believe it is true to say that, apart from the great machines of what we might call the "blue riband" type, the world to-day is hungry for aircraft of all kinds that wilt fit into the various demands up and down the world. One of my friends was in New Zealand the other

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day and people there complained bitterly that they could not get a seaplane. Those machines are singularly useful for going to a small island where they cannot put a landing ground for an ordinary land machine. I believe, also, that we were very foolish to give up the idea of the great flying boat.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: I know that nobody among the "powers that be" agrees with me in this matter, but I am not going to give up my hope that one day we shall see a great flying boat made in this country. Here we should really lead the world. Flying boats do not lend themselves to conditions in America and they do not want them there; but in the British Empire, which is mostly by the sea, all over the world, we want them more than anywhere else. A flying boat is a wonderful type of machine with peculiar advantages for comfort, and I maintain that to-day, throughout the world, operators have forgotten all about the comfort in the air for passengers. A ride in a motor bus on the highways of London is a good deal more comfortable than a flying trip in an aeroplane. In a flying boat there is the room and the comfort, and if one were built there would be an appeal for them. Why else do people go to America by sea, taking five or six days in the "Queen Mary" and the Queen Elizabeth," if it is not because they enjoy themselves with that form of transport? Nobody on earth can say that they enjoy a trip across the Atlantic by air.
In these days of daily crises it is difficult to get Her Majesty's Government to give this subject the consideration that it deserves, but we in this country have done so much in the past. We have pioneered with blood and brains and treasure, and it would be a lamentable thing if we were to throw it all away for lack of sound, co-operative, national planning.
3.55 p.m.
VISCOUNT KNOLLYS: My Lords, although I have to declare a very real interest in the aircraft industry I do not speak in any way for that industry today, but only from the point of view of one particular section of it. I felt
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that someone with responsibilities in it might be able to contribute to-day something to this valuable debate. My noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara has, as usual, given us, from his unique knowledge of the subject, a most penetrating and impressive analysis of the many problems that there are in this whole field to-day. I thought I might offer your Lordships a few "facts of life" on the more down-to-earth side which the constructor has to face at the present time.
First of all, the true position and prospects of the British aircraft industry are not yet fully realised, because it looks so prosperous at present and because parts of it can continue to appear prosperous, provided that they have enough civil orders to carry them through the time when military orders are declining. The real prospects, however, can be very grim, unless certain facts are realised and some constructive support—not necessarily directly financial, and certainly not pure subsidy—is provided by Her Majesty's Government or by a Government-controlled organisation. As the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore stated, the number employed in the aircraft industry is about 250,000. The Minister of Supply has stated that he sees, before long, a time when that number will be reduced to 150,000, but I believe that it is not always realised that the number can fall very much below that unless aircraft firms, however big and however grouped together, are given some help to avoid their being left financially completely on their own.
I venture to suggest several reasons for this rather uncomfortable position. There is, first of all, the growing difficulty of selling transport aircraft in an increasingly competitive market throughout the world. At the moment we are faced with the normal competition that we have had to meet for so long, but it may be that before very long we shall have a powerful addition to that field of competitors—I refer to Russia. Then there is the very strained financial position of air lines all over the world, including those in the United States of America. They are finding it increasingly difficult to finance the purchase of the most modern airliners. We have, too, the demand, which has grown strongly in the last twelve months, for long credits and even for the trading-in of second-hand

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aircraft, due to this financial stringency which in many cases is coupled with exchange difficulties in particular countries.
Finally, there is the greatest problem of all —the enormous cost of development. I am sure that everyone was very pleased to hear the statement of the Minister of Supply assuring another place that the research facilities of Her Majesty's Government will continue to be made available to the industry. But it is this enormous cost of development, as distinct from research, that is the main worry of aircraft constructors. The cost includes the expenses of the elaborate jigs and tools which are used for only one particular type of aircraft, the salaries of the large design staff necessary and the costly but all-important testing and development flying. All this expenditure has to be spread over the number of aircraft that it is estimated will be sold. Some figures may give your Lordships an illustration of this expenditure which has to be incurred before a single aircraft is delivered.
In the case of the Vanguard, a large turbo-prop aircraft to carry over 100 passengers, which my own company is making and which is due to fly this autumn, my company has already provided during the last two years, for development and tooling alone, over £4 million. That is only part of the total cost of development; there will undoubtedly be more—indeed, a great deal more, one way and another—to be provided for this aircraft. If this is so in the case of a medium-large aircraft, how much greater it is going to be, and is, in the case of the large transatlantic nonstop aircraft and supersonic aircraft of the future? If sufficient aircraft are finally sold, these development costs can be covered; but in the meantime any prudent company has to provide against commercial risks, which are always present and inherent in these ventures. I would suggest, too, that these ventures are themselves not without benefit to the country. We ourselves have at present two private ventures of this kind being financed entirely by the company's own money. But I say frankly that, unless some aid is available, even limited aid, these may be the last we can undertake entirely out of our own resources, unless and until they have paid
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off reasonably and capital is released for further projects.
There is little use in stating these difficulties and problems without some kind of suggestions for their solution. The ones which I am going to put before your Lordships are straightforward; they are not new, but I think it reasonable to emphasise them to-day. I should like to say at once that the answer which in some quarters might seem the obvious one to all this, nationalisation, is, of course, not the answer at all, for several very obvious reasons. To begin with, only limited Government aid is really required. Then the product of the nationalised industry, from what I know in travelling about the world, would undoubtedly lose a great deal of its sales value in a great many parts of the world. Again, the scope for the personal and individual initiative, which has been the foundation, I think, of the success of the British aircraft industry, will undoubtedly be lessened under such conditions. In that particular connection it is interesting to note that the United States, which we can hardly call a country that welcomes Government intervention in business, has accepted this very kind of indirect aid which is being suggested here.
Some of the practical suggestions that I should like to mention are these. First, a limited amount of Government financial help for development costs could be recovered by a royalty on sales; and some such method as this can certainly be profitable to the Government in some cases, as we know. There has already been mentioned in more than one place of the position of Transport Command, and if we could get firm orders placed by Transport Command, additional to those placed in the normal way by the independent operators, for trooping and other purposes of that kind, we should be in a position to go ahead at home on our own. Surely there must be a great opportunity for this, with the demand for mobile troops and arms which is not only envisaged under the new defence policy but is also taking place at this very moment (and it illustrates the point well, I think) in the Mediterranean.
There is one important point on the question of these orders, if they are going to be placed. They should be placed at the same stage as the airlines here, B.O.A.C. and B.E.A., have been

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prepared to place their orders—in other words, at the earliest possible moment when the customers are satisfied that the aircraft to be developed and produced is what they want to meet their needs. That sort of thing has been done in the case of our two airlines, and it has made the production of several aircraft possible. But is must be a really firm order. There is a difference between that type of order and the ordinary commercial orders, some of which are placed on behalf of the Ministry of Supply. I would suggest, too, that the firm most capable of doing the job should be given the order, irrespective of whether or not another order has been placed with it.
We have to remember (this point has been mentioned to-day but I want to emphasise it once more) how the great aircraft constructors in the United States are helped. We have mentioned already the Boeing 707 produced on the back of the large tanker order. Other aircraft companies have been able to have the largest part of their production from military orders, and they have produced civil aircraft in that way. As for new aid, your Lordships may have noticed that recently a very large order was placed by the United States Air Force for a version of the Lockheed Electra aircraft, a transport aircraft, for use in anti-submarine reconnaissance. Perhaps there are possibilities in the future as to that kind of use to aid civil air transports. Then there is now more and more of the proper kind of assistance to finance this long-term credit which I mentioned. In these days it is impossible to improve aircraft sales in any way without being faced with a demand for this very unusual type of long-term credit. That can be provided by the Export Credits Guarantee Department, as the Government agency concerned. Perhaps it is now even necessary to consider some form of strong and specially developed finance company, possibly on the lines of Air France, which is doing valuable work in that direction. So far as the Export Credits Guarantee Department is concerned, I am sure that they now recognise the special problems and the claims of the aircraft industry.
I would emphasise to your Lordships that I am perfectly sure that there is no spirit of defeatism in the aircraft industry here. It feels strongly that it must receive proper and reasonable support and help
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for those parts of its enormous task, which it cannot really be expected to carry out entirely on its own. It is just because it wishes to maintain its great position in the future that it is so concerned in these matters. The aircraft industry, I think I can say without fear of contradiction, has the talent, the productive capacity and the sales record and, of course, its high world-wide reputation; and under proper conditions it can provide most of the very large sums of money which are required. I am sure that it is prepared to collaborate and rationalise, so long as that is achieved realistically. It does not expect to be "spoon-fed", but why should it be expected to do what the American aircraft industry has not been called upon to do—to design, to develop and to construct large civil air transports, while carrying the whole burden and strain itself? It wants only some of the same kind of help, though naturally on a much smaller scale, as the great American competitors have received and are still receiving, and without which they would not be the competitors they are.
Given that reasonable assistance, combined with the realistic improvements that it must always be prepared to make in its own affairs, the British aircraft industry can continue to provide for this country inestimable benefits comparable to the one mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara; and. I would add, technical prestige and employment for technical youth of this country. and foreign exchange. As we must assume that the Government wish to ensure that an aircraft industry continues to exist in this country, I am sure that they must and will find their share of the solution. Without that it will be impossible for our aircraft industry to carry on effectively or, indeed, to survive as the great, essential national asset which it undoubtedly is.
4.9 p.m.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I think this is a very timely debate, and one of the most agreeable features of it is that there is absolutely no politics in it. Here you have men of wide experience, administrators, manufacturers and scientists, merely determined to see what is the wisest policy for this industry. I must say that I should have liked this debate to start with a Government exposition on policy and plans, both on

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the future of aircraft as they see it and on the future of the aircraft industry. As I see it, if we are to have the right policy we must try to be certain of three things. We must be certain, first, of the facts of the present position. That is not so difficult. Lord Knollys has put them admirably to us. Secondly—and this is harder—we must try to see the future, so far as it is foreseeable. Then, thirdly, in the light of the first two considerations we must decide what should be our aim in the national interest.
As the House knows, I take the view that piloted aircraft on the military side, both the bomber and the fighter, are likely to have a much longer life than some authorities appear to consider. I do not propose to go into that question again to-day. I dealt with it at some length in the debate on defence. I gave my reasons for thinking that, and I was greatly comforted and reinforced to find that, not for the first time since we started working together, Lord Tedder was of the same mind. I think that informed opinion is gravitating more and more in that direction. Certainly in the great aircraft manufacturing countries of the world—the United States and Russia —and in the countries with the greatest Air Forces, I see no tendency to rely on the guided missile of the future as against the bomber and the fighter of the present.
But, whether I am right in that or not, there is no doubt at all that there will be an increasing need for aircraft both for commercial service and for military transport. Let us never forget—because this is fundamental to the whole of this problem—that research and development on military and civil aircraft are absolutely interdependent and inseparable. I do not for a moment understand—and I shall be greatly interested when Lord Mancroft tells us—what was meant by the Minister when he said, as quoted by Lord Ogmore, "as research gets more identifiable". That was the word "identifiable". I have not the faintest idea what it means. Of course, I know a bomber when I see it and I know an airliner when I see it. But I am sure that everybody in this House with experience of development in the past would agree with me that the last thing he could tell when initial research was being done—and, indeed, not only initial research but research carried a long waywas whether that was going to prove of greater value
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for the civil or for the military side. The one thing that is quite certain is that it is going to be important for both; and if you drop the military side I do not think it will be long before the civil research goes by the board, too.
Therefore, I am sure that there will be a considerable demand on this industry, and a considerable demand, may I say, on the Government. But, even so, there will not be enough work to go round the industry at its present size. Lord Ogmore has given us the figures, and I gather that the Government take 150,000—that is a cut of at least 100,000 in the present personnel—as their estimate of the future figure. What, then, is the national interest? I am sure that the national interest demands this: that both for defence and commercially we should have a thoroughly efficient aircraft industry.
I am not going to be long, but there is an important aspect that has not yet been touched on. Lord Knollys, being the head of a great and successful firm, was perhaps too delicate, but having no interest at all in any aircraft firm but having had some experience of placing orders with aircraft firms and having helped or stimulated reorganisation in that industry, perhaps I may say one or two things which it might be harder for anybody with a direct interest to say. I would put as the prerequisites to an efficient aircraft industry these three points. First of all, the industry must be strong financially. Secondly, it must be strong in design and production. Thirdly—and, if I understood Lord Knollys aright, I am going to say something with which he will concur—contracts, whether they are for civil aircraft or for military aircraft, must be placed for the best aircraft and must be placed with the best firm to produce those aircraft.
My Lords, I emphasise that last point because I am quite certain that quality, performance and efficient production must be the overriding test of what should he ordered and where the order should be placed. Nothing but the best will do for defence. Nothing but the best will give the great British airliners the passengers to fill them in competition with the other airliners of the world, and nothing but the best will command the export market which can perhaps be the most valuable export market of the lot. I submit that those are the essential

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prerequisites of a successful aircraft industry, and I should like to ask the Government whether they accept those principles as the premises on which Government policy should be based.
As I said, firms must be financially strong. Lord Knollys has emphasised that they must be strong, not by theory but by showing us in practice, as his company has done; and there are other companies both in airframe production and in engine production which can match what he has told us. The stronger those firms are, the more they will be able to do themselves in research and development, although I am quite certain—and I will come back to this point in a moment—that even the strongest will need Government help in research and development. My Lords, you do not make an efficient firm financially strong by making it take on weak partners. By that I do not mean small partners—I do not at all exclude the small firm. Those of us who know this industry and have known it in the past can think of quite small firms which have had a designer of genius and of keenness and which have produced something very remarkable. To give that man and his team the full chance of development and expansion. he wants a great deal of money behind him, and the marriage of a small firm like that with one of the larger firms would be of great advantage.
But I am quite sure that it is no good trying to keep every firm alive. Some of them must go into something else. An industry which is so big that it can only be partially employed is uneconomic and inefficient. It could continue only with huge Government subsidies, and that would be demoralising and debilitating. Such an industry could not hold its own in this highly competitive world. But all this does not in any way imply laissez-faire on the part of either firms or the Government. The firms themselves have a duty to seek marriages or association—I will not call them liaisons—which will be sound and fruitful. I am not pressing them to take on weak partners or to take on liabilities, but I urge them not to be too eclectic, too perfectionist, or too exclusive.
It would be a great pity if the right amalgamations failed to come off because of some difficulty over personalities. Conscious as we are of each other's short-
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comings, we always see the difficulties of potential colleagues. But if I may say so after a great many years' experience, you do not always choose your own colleagues, but when you get down to working with them you find them, and they find you, in the rough and tumble of practical life more accommodating and more practical than at first blush you both supposed. I do not know if there is any noble Lord in the House now who was associated with either the Bristol or the Rolls-Royce companies, but if there is he will remember a long negotiation stimulated, I might almost say forced, at one time by myself, over variable-pitch propellers, where a successful and fruitful marriage took place which, for all I know, is now producing in the third and fourth generations.
The alternative to these amalgamations might be much less agreeable "shot-gun weddings ", sponsored or forced by the Government, or in the last resort, nationalisation, which, I agree with my noble friend Lord Knollys, would be a disaster all round. I think that the Government have the duty to use their influence in this way. They should apply inducements, both the carrot and the stick; but the more the Government use their power in this way, the more important it is that they should accept and apply those principles which ought to govern amalgamations, principles and tests which, I have ventured to suggest, would ensure a strong and efficient industry.
The Government also have a duty, and I think it is the stronger duty, to have a definite policy of research and development and to make it plain to the industry. I would beg the Government, whether they agree with me about bombers and fighters or not, not to skimp over research and development. Do not be afraid to spend on it. We really cannot afford not to spend on research and development. It is an essential contribution to defence and, I believe, an essential and relatively cheap contribution to what might be one of the greatest assets in maintaining through the coming years and coming decades our successful trade balance. Let the industry know now, as soon as you can. Certainty and security are vital to this industry and time is of the essence of the contract. If this debate encourages both firms and

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the Government—and I think that perhaps the Government need as much stimulating as the firms; I would not be invidious; I should like to see the carrot and the stick applied impartially to both partners in this business—to get on with the job, to achieve sound and fruitful amalgamations and develop a forward policy for those firms to carry out, then certainly this debate will have served a useful purpose.
4.25 p.m.
LORD KINDERSLEY: My Lords, there is such a distinguished list of noble Lords who are to speak to-day and who are far better qualified than I am to speak with authority on the aircraft industry as a whole, that I hesitate to take up your Lordships' time; but if you would bear with me, I should like to make certain points which apply particularly to the aero engine industry. Here I must declare an interest as chairman of Rolls-Royce. It is apparent to all, I suppose, that it is impossible for an aircraft (I am not referring to gliders) to fly without engines, and that equally aero engines are of no avail without aircraft. The two industries are indivisible. At the same time, there are certain factors in the aero industry itself which might be of interest to your Lordships. There are two points in particular to which I wish to draw your Lordships' attention. These are, first, the time it takes to develop an aero engine, and secondly, the cost of that development.
As regards the former, I think I can say without fear of contradiction that five years is the minimum period of development, if all goes well, and it has been known to take even ten years before an engine is ready for delivery. As regards cost, the development of the modern jet engine costs anything from £15 million to £20 million or even more before it is in production and ready for delivery to the customer. Some of your Lordships may he surprised at these figures, but I think they make it clear that the £116 million of exports to which the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, referred, out of which £40½ million was accounted for by aero engines, were the products of development carried out during the past decade while the industry was enjoying the full support of Her Majesty's Government in defence expenditure and when our defence policy was based on
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large fleets of bombers and fighters, which were the very foundation of the experience on which our successful export trade, both commercial and foreign Government, was built.
Those days have changed. Orders for bombers and fighters have been cut down and strung out. The industry has been put on notice—again, I am referring to the aero engine industry—that it must stand on its own feet for future development of engines of commercial aircraft. It must be clear to your Lordships that there are limits to the number of types of aero engine which the industry can afford to develop off its own bat at £15 million to £20 million a time. With the rug pulled out from under its feet, the industry is left with the hard task of developing successfully for the future in the face of indirectly subsidised competition, where the wealth of the United States of America and of individual corporations in the United States of America dwarf the facilities available to the industry here. The stakes are large, but I am firmly convinced that the international aero engine business is worth fighting for, particularly when we start as the pre-eminent country in that industry.
It is a basically sound business for this country. Of course, its products are technically difficult to develop and manufacture, but there is no country that possesses higher technical skill and technique than we have, and only the highly industrial countries can afford to compete. It is a relatively stable industry where an increasing proportion of export turnover will consist of spare parts and overhaul work. It is an industry with low imported material content and a high labour content, which should enable it to compete on a price basis with the U.S.A. There is also a forward urge to provide British made aircraft and aero engines for our national corporations. But to do so it is essential to have an export market for the same types, or their cost would be quite prohibitive. In order to be technically competitive, and remain so, we must be in a position to match the Americans and the Russians in essential development facilities, and to be able to keep this up to date.
If it is accepted that the business is worth fighting for, it is essential with an industry that has made the maximum

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contribution that it can towards development from its own resources that the Government should finance the remainder and help those who have helped themselves. In my opinion, every effort should be made in the interests of economy and efficiency to try, where possible, to combine military orders with ultimately fulfilling a civil export need. I also feel that R.A.F. Transport should give the maximum help possible in endurance-flight testing of new products. I will end by reminding your Lordships that what development is carried out to-day will be reflected in the export figures of five to ten years' time; and in this light I would suggest that a new look should be given to the policy of to-day.
4.32 p.m.
LORD ADRIAN: My Lords, in much of what I have to say I shall only be repeating what has been said with much more skill and knowledge by the noble Viscount who opened this debate, but the warning he then gave cannot be repeated too often; and there is one part of it that I want particularly to emphasise. Our aircraft industry does much more than produce aircraft: it is in the front line of our technological advance. If we weaken it severely, we endanger our position as a nation which has to live by its technology. At present, the aircraft industry is one of the major directing forces in technological development over a wide field. Of course its development was enormously helped by the two wars. They were periods of intense scientific activity in applied science, and they produced the remarkable machines that we have now—machines that were not dreamed of when I was young.
I think it is true to say that there is hardly any field of technical progress which has not received an immense stimulus from the development of those aircraft in war time: radio, metallurgy, engine design, electronic control, and fine engineering of almost every kind. Nobody wants a repetition of those two periods when we had to develop aircraft or lose the war, but the industry is still one of the most fertile sources that we have of technical advance. It is so, I suppose, because there is still such a wide field ahead of it, and because it has to work so near to the limit of what is possible. Aeronautical engineers seem to be quite accustomed to making what
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seem to be impossible demands and finding that some of them are fulfilled—I am thinking of demands for even stronger and lighter materials, the sort of demands that may be met by Titanium; demands for better engines, better electrical equipment, and for new kinds of structure and new manufacturing processes.
There are many advances in general engineering which are eagerly sought, such as the storage and transmission of power, turning coal directly into electricity and so on; but in many of these activities there is not the same wide field ahead. Our cars go quite fast enough already, and we do not expect them to be so different ten years hence; but we do expect our planes to look quite different. Developing them ought to give the same sort of stimulus as developing the new field of atomic energy. That, like the aircraft industry, ought to give us the same kind of harvest over the whole range of industry. To-day we can claim that our aeronautical industry is as good as the best in the world. It has been brought to that position, admittedly, by the great subsidies that have been paid to it in the past by the taxpayer. But it was worth it, because it helped us to win our wars, and because of the direct profit derived now from the export trade and the much greater indirect profit that we get from the general technical advance that it has brought about. The industry has had these subsidies primarily because of its importance in defence. Now that it seems to be less likely to be important in the future no one can blame Her Majesty's Government for feeling that they cannot afford to go on paying for planes which will never be wanted.
The problem, however, is whether we can afford to lose the technology which would go into them, which would be applied to machines and have just as much influence on the development of our industry as many of the developments in the atomic field. While the Government, I think wisely, have decided to make no immediate reduction in the research which goes on in their own establishments at Farnborough, Bedford, Malvern and elsewhere, they seem to have decided on a sudden and drastic reduction in what they are paying the aircraft firms for developing the prototypes of new machines. That is the decision which may have such serious results.

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In the past, it has been the Government research establishments which have produced much of the basic knowledge and from which new ideas have come. The translation into a particular engine or a particular plane has been left to the aircraft firms. That has been a good way of proceeding; both sides understand it, and they have built up teams which carry out the particular side of the work they have to do. The Government research establishments have not been designed to produce prototypes of engines or planes, and they could scarcely expand in that direction, because it is a matter of considerable experience. That basic research, of course, has to go on; it must be there to supply the guiding principles. Work on wind tunnels, models and so on can supply them, and can show at once that some ideas are not worth following up. But the applied research which is needed for building a full-scale machine can have just as much effect on the technical development. It will be concerned with getting the details right; but that will give the prospect of a learning great deal about the whole process of advance.
In the improvement of anything as complicated as a modern plane there must be the actual translation of the basic ideas into the finished product. We do not yet know anything like enough about complicated machinery to be able to say how it will work merely by looking at the blueprint. Engines have to be run until they break down to see why they do so. New needs and new ideas must be allowed to come in at every stage, and the research is not finished until long after the first flight. And "Mark II" of the prototype is always a great deal better than "Mark I", because so much has been found out in the process of manufacture and running. Basic research is very important, but it is, after all, directed to a practical end. It is only in the universities that we are free to spend our time acquiring entirely useless knowledge. If the basic research in applied engineering is not built into a new machine, it will lose an important stimulus arid an important guide into what it should do next. I do not want to suggest for a moment that the Government research establishments will be reduced to academic exercises if new planes are not built; but it is difficult to believe that there is not an important case to be made out for sponsoring by
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the Government of the design and construction of some advanced machines.
4.42 p.m.
LORD WEEKS: My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Knollys, I should say immediately that I do not pretend to speak as a representative of the industry. Unlike him, I am no longer concerned with the hurly-burly of aircraft manufacture, but I still have certain interests, either directly or indirectly, with aircraft companies. A somewhat similar debate to this took place last December, and the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, who introduced the debate on that day, made the criticism that people like myself (he did not mention my name, but the cap fitted) spoke on these matters outside the House but did not take the trouble to come here to express their views. I think your Lordships will agree that on this occasion we have a considerable amount of talent to talk on this subject.
Nearly all industries have their ups and downs. We have seen it in shipping, steel, and textiles, and no doubt we shall see it in aircraft manufacture. Although the situation may not have what I might call a gloomy outlook, it certainly has rather a grim one. You can do nothing at all, and you can let the law of the jungle operate; but the result, in my opinion, will not be a highly civilised one. Many people, myself included, have pointed out that there are too many units in this highly complicated industry. I am following much the same lines—and I shall not be repetitive—as those which the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, has already stated. I consider that a certain amount of amalgamation or grouping is desirable, and in any contemplated grouping it is desirable to strengthen those parts of the industry which have shown themselves capable of earning exports. But there is only one agency which can instigate and stimulate a reorientation of an industry; and that is the Government itself. It is also essential, of course, that the industry must co-operate in such a plan, and again I go along with the noble Earl. I am not advocating any "shot-gun wedding."
Other speakers have already enlarged on the essential help that is required for development of airframes and aeroengines. Your Lordships have had facts and figures, from both the noble Viscount, Lord Knollys, and the noble Lord, Lord Kindersley, and nobody knows better than they what the situation is. I am not sure

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that engines are not much more important than airframes. Other noble Lords have spoken—and I agree, with them—of the need for long-term credit facilities. I will not go into the comparisons made with the United States, where the domestic civil market is equal in operating capacity to the rest of the world's scheduled airlines put together. I think I am right in saying that in 1956 the United States aircraft industry was the largest employer of labour in the whole of that country, and it operates, as others have stated, on the back of enormous Government orders. Nevertheless, I believe that the British David can take on this American Goliath.
I proposed to try to confine my real remarks in this debate to what I consider the lack of focus in the industry, and working up to that point I should like to try to analyse what sort of courses the Government can take. What I might call course A is outright nationalisation. Course B could be participation by the Government in the equities of the variety of companies which comprise the industry—I think this was suggested in principle in the Labour Party's policy statement Industry and Society last year. Having put up these two Aunt Sallys, if I may so call them, I should like to shoot them down before I go on to others. Those who support the policy of outright nationalisation will argue that this industry is largely an armaments industry; that the State has been, and will continue to be, the chief customer; that in the past the State has provided the resources to develop many projects and has also given all the production orders for Service requirements; that the State conducts a large part of the fundamental aeronautical research, and, finally, that the industry is inefficient. That last point is something with which, from my own knowledge, I entirely disagree.
There is one line of argument which has been brought out by other speakers, and especially by the noble Viscount, Lord Knollys: that because the cost of development of future projects is so large, no individual manufacturer can face it without help. That is true, but it is not in itself an argument for nationalization, as the noble Viscount, Lord Knollys, has already pointed out. All that is required for a company engaged on a large civil project is to have the buttress of military orders, as the Americans do, to overcome
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the gap which can arise if the number of planes ordered is not sufficient to enable the company concerned, if I might put it vulgarly, to "wash its face ".
The arguments against what I have called course A and course B are very strong. First, this industry, if it is to be successful, must depend on its export trade, which means high efficiency and keen prices; and I have no doubt whatever that overseas buyers would be less willing to deal with a Government organisation than with free enterprise. Secondly, private enterprise provides quick decisions and flexibility, and it is true that the advance in the technology of this industry has been so fantastically rapid that the last thing wanted or needed is any form of bureaucratic control. Thirdly, the enormous benefit which arises from competition in design would be lost under State control, and I submit that neither nationalisation nor Government control are in the best interests of those who work in the industry. Fourthly, this industry is engaged in designing, developing and producing complicated machines, whether for civil or for armaments purposes, and this involves collaboration with all kinds of other manufacturing industries who certainly would not welcome a change from working with a fellow-industrialist to a bureaucrat.
I do not want to elaborate courses A and B any further. Any case, I think, for the extension of State ownership or control, if it is looked at in the light of what has happened to those industries already nationalised, collapses as a potentially successful form of industrial organisation which will operate either efficiently or in the national interest. I am sure that Ministers know all the arguments, but it is courses of this sort of which they must be conscious, and they have got to find the remedy.
The next course, which I might call course C, could be something analagous, but not entirely similar, to what is now the Iron and Steel Board. This would provide a focus, but if one examines the effect of such a course one sees that it becomes "bogged down" because of the large number of Government Departments concerned with the industry. The Minister of Transport, with his civil aviation responsibilities, has an important voice in the policy and efficiency of the

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Government-operated Corporations and the independent operators; and I may say, in parenthesis, that I should like to see still more sympathetic consideration of the tasks that these independent operators can fulfil in the national interest.
The Air Ministry have a vital interest in the specification of their defence requirements for aircraft, for guided weapons, including the important function of Transport Command which can and should be, as has been already mentioned by other speakers, closely associated with civil requirements. The War Office is not only concerned with the fact that its troops and services have to be carried very long distances at short notice, but it also has a tactical requirement of its own. The Ministry of Supply is responsible for overall research; and in the past it was almost entirely—though it is not so much now—responsible for development. This Ministry has to obtain specifications for Service requirements and also has a brief for civil requirements. It places production orders for the Services and works with the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation on the requirements of the Government-operated companies. As I have pointed out on other occasions, this Ministry stands between the user and the manufacturer, and that is never a good principle.
The Ministry of Defence has an overall responsibility for Service matters and has laid down the overall pattern in this respect. I think that if your Lordships look at paragraph 6 of the new Defence White Paper you will find the definition described a little more accurately than I have been able to do. The Admiralty has its own peculiar requirements which depend on the co-operation of the Ministry of Supply. The Treasury watches all, and has just as much interest, if I may say so, in the ability of the industry to sell overseas as in acting as a watchdog in keeping down the expenditure of any of the Ministries to which I have referred.
For the future health of the industry, this leads me to the sort of focus the Government might make effective—I will call it course D. I only wish that I had the detailed knowledge to outline exactly what I think course D should be. I hope that the noble Lord who winds up this debate may give us a clue as
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to what the Government have in mind. As I see it, it could be a sort of High Court, a Governing Body, if you like, or a Committee at ministerial level (much as we all dislike committees), presided over by a Cabinet Minister, which can give full direction on policy. I think the industry might be much better off if suitable machinery could be set up. This machinery should have some technical "teeth" to assist it. I do not presume to suggest who the Minister should be who should preside.
One would like to feel assured that all the implications of, say, alterations in fares, needs for new bombers, fighters or freighters, or guided weapons, or new civil aircraft, have been reviewed before the decision is taken, not by one Ministry but by a body which covers all Ministries. Someone or some body must decide on the broadest basis what new developments are worth pursuing and, still more important, what are worth cutting out; what aeroplanes and what engines are worth backing; so that they can finally take their decisions and allow those companies which may be left in this business —there will be fewer than there are today—the hope of making some profit from the machines they are asked to produce. In any case—I will make the same old remark—I hope it can be secured that the customer and the manufacturer can be allowed to have free contact with each other.
The industry may have been "featherbedded" to some extent in the years before the war, but unless some focus like the one I am advocating can be brought into being, with the duty of watching, co-ordinating and fostering the growth of British aviation effort as a whole, both civil and military, I can only repeat my warning that the outlook is grim. This may be a little pessimistic, but as my noble friend, Lord Knollys has already stated, I think we must face the "facts of life." This is a vital industry. It contains some brilliant leaders and technologists. It has one of the most attractive and one of the most favourable conversion ratios as an export. Lord Brabazon of Tara gave certain figures; I think he said £15 and 2s.; my information was £10 and 1s. There it is. That is an enormous figure for a conversion ratio. My only final request will be: let the Government give us (I speak now as a member of the industry) the

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tools of policy and the necessary signposts, and we will do the job.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, before the next speaker addresses the House, I wonder if I might put one question to the noble Lord, who has obviously made a speech of great importance? Before doing so, I must apologise for not hearing the first part of his speech. I gather that he is proposing the establishment of an important and representative Committee, with a technical team attached, which would report to a Cabinet Minister. He has also criticised the very existence of the Ministry of Supply. Do I gather that he is recommending the abolition of the Ministry of Supply?
LORD WEEKS: My Lords, I am sorry to tell the noble Lord that I did not think it was within the terms of reference to-day that I should go into the question of the Ministry of Supply. But at any other time I should be only too delighted to try to do so. I was not thinking at the moment of the abolition of the Ministry of Supply. If I might expand my comment, I only regret that I have not the necessary detailed knowledge to define completely what that course D should be. But the noble Lord has more or less set out what I have tried to say.
5.2 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am quite certain that the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord De L'Isle, will be very satisfied with the course of this debate. It has been of a high standard from the beginning, and I think the noble Viscount himself set the tone of the debate. We have also been fortunate in having a speech from the noble Lord, Lord Weeks. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Ogmore would he pleased at his strictures of certain noble Lords who have given their advice in public and have not come to this House to do so. This afternoon we have had a classic example, and we are gratified that the noble Lord has come here. We do not all agree with all that he has said, but he has given us a lot to think about.
When I was listening to the noble Viscount I could not but come to the conclusion that he had grave concern at the whole trend of Government policy so far as it affects the aircraft industry. This concern is nothing new; it has been repeated again and again from the Oppo-
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sition Front Bench. I remember that only last December my noble friend Lord Ogmore called for a full inquiry into the aircraft industry. We were told then that there was to be an interdepartmental inquiry. We have heard little from that inquiry. What I think concerns us particularly is the Government's general attitude towards the aircraft industry. It seems to place the aircraft industry in the same group as manufacturers who produce for the general consuming industry. I believe that to be fundamentally wrong. There is little similarity between the aircraft industry and the consuming industry. I believe one noble Lord this afternoon mentioned Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited. There is a classic example of a company with many diverse industries, but each dependent upon the other. The company has been able to develop because of the strength of one particular division. The aircraft industry is unlike that type of industry; it has only a limited number of customers, whereas the consuming industry generally can change and adjust itself according to the times. It can seek new lines and new markets and, generally speaking, it can obtain finance from many quarters. I believe that that is where the Government are causing a great disservice to the aircraft industry.
My noble friend Lord Ogmore again made a plea for an inquiry into the aircraft industry. The time is very pressing, and I wonder whether we can afford the time for a full inquiry into all the aspects of the industry. We have heard repeatedly in this House and in the Press that there must be contraction and reorganisation within the industry. To some extent, that contraction is taking place now, but I wonder whether this unorganised contraction is in the national interest. I personally feel that it will end in disaster—that certain sides of the industry will go. Therefore, I would call upon Her Majesty's Government to consider the setting up of a corporation to go with the industry into the whole question of organised contraction, to see that the strong can be married with the weaker but essential parts of the industry, and to bear in mind the projects and the constructions that are already being undertaken by the industry.
I believe that this corporation should be provided with funds to help exports. We are aware of the great work that the

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industry has done in export, but we well know now that it is not a question purely of producing an aircraft. To-day, the airline operators are short of finance. I would submit that if this corporation were set up and were provided with finance, it could well provide the capital and the loans to the operators so that they could produce new and modern machines. I have particularly in mind the independent airlines.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord for one moment? He is making a most interesting point. What soft of corporation has he in mind—a Government agency, an independent corporation, or a body like B.O.A.C. or B.E.A.? To whom would it be responsible? Who would have control of it?
LORD SHEPHERD: It could be a corporation similar to B.O.A.C. but I think it should be a corporation on which there could sit representatives of industry, representatives of the Government and some representatives of the operators, so that into that corporation you would get many interests. I think that that is a great point for the financing of our exports.
My last point is on the question of the Government's attitude towards the supersonic bomber. The Government have maintained that by the time the supersonic bomber could be developed and manufactured for squadron use it would be out of date and the missile would have taken its place. The Government have their advisers, and they may well be right; equally, they may well be wrong. I believe that the danger is that if their advisers are wrong and the Government have ceased research into the supersonic bomber, in five or ten years' time the Government may well find themselves without any bombers, and that would be a most serious situation. I would ask Her Majesty's Government, therefore, to see whether they could not continue research on at least one type of supersonic bomber, so that if the advisers of Her Majesty's Government are wrong we should have at least continued our research and should not have to start in two or three years' time with nothing on the drawing board.
I believe this is very important. When I was in America quite recently I was very much struck by a remark made by
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the Commanding General of the Strategic Air Command. He said that so far as he could see in the foreseeable future we should need the bomber. He may be wrong and the advisers of Her Majesty's Government may be right; but he may be right and the advisers may be wrong. I sincerely hope that we shall carry on with the design and development of the supersonic bomber.
5.11 p.m.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I, too, must declare an interest in the subject of this debate, but I should like to make clear that I speak for no one but myself. I believe we should all be very grateful to the noble and gallant Viscount who has put down this Motion to-day, for the debate has been extremely interesting: many of us who have spoken towards the end of it have found that a great deal of what we were to say has already been said very much better.
The Motion before the House concerns the prospects of the aircraft industry. I do not think anyone will dispute the fact that the prospects of the world aircraft industry are very bright, in that the use of aircraft as a means of world communication is bound to expand. The question before the House—the important one for us—is: what share is Britain to get of that expanding market? That will surely depend on the effort we are prepared to devote to it. Over the last ten years the Ministry of Supply have spent some £600 million on research and development for the aircraft industry, of which about one tenth—£60 million—has been spent on work for civil aircraft. That, of course, includes work in private industry and Government establishments. During a similar period exports have amounted to about £650 million and they are now running, as we have heard, at about £150 million a year.
That seems to me to be a pretty fair record and not a bad return on the money invested; but there arises a question which always arises when Government money is spent: could that money have been spent better elsewhere or in some other way? I am very doubtful whether it could. The noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, has already pointed out the extremely good conversion ratio of aircraft: they sell for £10 or £15 per 1b. weight, whereas cars sell for about 10s. per 1b. and ships for only about 1s.

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per lb. Another way of looking at it is that with aircraft 15 per cent. of the total cost is the cost of raw materials whereas in ships the raw materials cost is about 65 per cent. That means, of course, that the export content of aircraft is very largely labour and brains.
In addition, as the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, has pointed out, the aircraft industry performs a vital service to the community by stimulating technical progress. Mainly because of the importance of weight, the great accuracy of shape required and high performance, new techniques, new materials and new methods of calculation all spring from the aeronautical industry and fertilise the whole field of engineering. These great contributions have been made possible mainly by developments supported by military requirements but partly by developments devoted specifically to the requirements of civil aviation. Now, as we have heard, these conditions are changing. There are to be fewer military aircraft, and, apparently, less civil development.
Under these conditions, can the industry remain prosperous and can exports be maintained? Those are not two different questions, for, owing to our very small home market, without a prosperous export trade the industry cannot survive as a useful industry. Clearly the answers to those two questions depend partly on the competence and efficiency of the industry itself but partly, as we have seen, on the support that the industry gets from Government policy. Since the war the industry has had great ups and downs, contractions and expansions—and its share of failures as well as great successes. But now the record speaks for itself and the equipment in the industry, both in Government establishments and private companies, is of the highest quality.
We can never match the United States in quantity, but we can and do match them in quality; and there is no doubt at all that in many fields—in propeller-turbine aircraft and in engines of all kinds, to give two examples—we are leading the world. There is no reason why we should not continue to do so. I believe there is some danger that we in this country have got an inferiority complex, due to the tremendous flood of American production of all kinds. I do not believe
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there are any grounds at all for that, for we can continue to lead the world in many fields provided that Her Majesty's Government provide the proper environment in which the industry can continue its achievements. Competition is strong and we have to organise to meet it. At the present time the main competition comes from the United States of America. In future, no doubt, Russia will add to it.
In America the aircraft industry enjoys many important advantages. A large proportion of its capital assets—a much larger proportion than in this country—is Government-owned. The Aircraft Industries Association of America recently announced that about two-thirds of their assets were Government-owned. Very substantial credits are provided by the Export-Import Bank. Then there are two other factors of tremendous importance of which we have already heard this afternoon: the continuing military programme and the large home market. For instance, the great Douglas Aircraft Company, which perhaps many people think of as a civil aircraft company, had a turnover of sales of about £400 million in 1957 but only approximately 20 per cent. of that represents civil aircraft construction. That shows the enormous support that that great company gets from military aircraft sales and development.
Those two advantages—a continuing military programme and a large home market—lead directly to the fact that in America new aircraft can be and are developed on a military budget and all the early difficulties can be ironed out. They can then be sold on the civil home market and any further expenditure needed to make them into good civil aircraft can be recovered. Those aircraft can then be put on the markets of the world at a price which, of necessity, is far below the price that must be charged by a company which has no such support from its Government. Without doubt, if the British aircraft industry does not get the kind of support that has been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Weeks, it is going to operate at a very grave disadvantage. This is a fundamental point. If there were no military aircraft development in the world we should all be selling aircraft at higher prices in order to recover the development costs; the whole price level would rise and we should be competing on an equal basis. But as things are

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now, we have to compete on the basis of this large, continuing military programme in the United States.
Recent Government statements indicate that there is going to be a drastic reduction in military development, and support for civil aircraft development only in special cases of quite revolutionary designs. That new policy brings great problems in its wake. The industry must adapt itself—it is already changing—but that alone is not enough. First, I believe that the Government must take a firm and clear decision that they believe the aircraft industry is worth while supporting, as I am sure they should. They must make that decision quite clear to all concerned. Having made that decision and indicated it, they must accept the implications of it—that in some way or another research and development must be supported. It must be supported not in dribs and drabs, with the tap being turned on and off to suit changes in the political and financial climate. It would be a tremendous help to the industry if the kind of allocation of money that is made for the universities over a five-year period could also be made for aircraft research and development. Then, some new arrangement is needed for the control or for the allocation of any funds that are available, in the kind of way which the noble Lord, Lord Weeks, suggested under his plan "D". And in all due humility, I should like to support all he said in that connection.
The noble and gallant Viscount, Lord De L'Isle, mentioned the large number of different authorities which were responsible for aircraft development; and it seems to me vital that some new committee or agency should be formed in order to allocate funds to and to coordinate the requirements of the aircraft industry. I, too, find it difficult to make any clear suggestions how that agency should work. Clearly it must have knowledge of all the requirements, both civil and military, and the operators must be represented on it; it must have technical staff to evaluate the proposals; and as well as having technical "teeth" it must also have financial "teeth". I am strongly of the opinion that some such agency, like the Atomic Energy Authority, would be far more suitable than one subjected to the day-to-day control of the Treasury. I know that that is
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a difficult problem and it is clearly a case where the balance of advantage must be considered; but basically the problem is one of competition on level terms. Quick decisions have to be taken, and I think all your Lordships will agree that the existence of Treasury control does not make it easy for decisions to be taken quickly.
The aircraft industry is unlike all other industries, in the sense that I have explained—in the sense that it is competing, not on straight commercial terms, but with another industry, in the United States mainly, which has great Government support. At present the airlines are in some difficulties, but who can doubt that there will be a new extension of air travel and a new surge of requirements for aircraft in the years to come? Surely no great industrial country such as Britain can afford to be out of the aviation industry. At present we have a great, leading position in many fields, but time is running out. The industry will play its part in reorganising itself to meet these changing conditions. But there is, I believe, a most urgent need for a clear, firm and positive policy from the Government, without which this important industry cannot survive.
5.25 p.m.
LORD SEMPTLL: My Lords, I am very glad to join with your Lordships who have already spoken in this debate in congratulating the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord De L'Isle, on his informed opening speech. The importance of the matters under discussion cannot, in my view, be exaggerated. Aeronautics as a profession, as your Lordships will know, is the most highly disciplined and advanced form of engineering thought in existence to-day and is the nursery of practically all new engineering developments in design, machine tools and materials. Quite apart from the manufacture of civil and military aircraft, we must have an active and live, virile aircraft industry. Without it we cannot lead the world in our other engineering projects.
I suggest that the changeover from manned aircraft to guided missiles will be much slower than was at one time contemplated. The guided missile development has brought about a division in thought, and some have been inclined to see the manned aircraft as on the

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way out; but I believe myself that nothing could be further from the truth and that we shall need manned aircraft for defence and civil purposes for a long time. This uncertainty has shaken the confidence of those who work in the aircraft industry. As I see it, a condition of unease has arisen, similar to that which resulted in the United States some ten years ago. That element of uncertainty resulted in that country when, there as here, many voices expressed conflicting views.
President Truman, as your Lordships may remember, established a committee of investigation known by the name of its chairman as the Finletter Committee, whose report entitled Survival in the Air Age is an example of what such a report can be, but seldom is. All who served on the Finletter Committee were able to approach the problem from an entirely independent angle, not having been responsible for anything that had been done on air policy affairs before. They had complete power to summon all parties irrespective of their position. As a result, a remarkable report was produced, which is very well worth reading. The effects of it can be seen from the vigour in action of the United States aircraft industry to-day, which has been referred to by several of your Lordships who have spoken.
As several of your Lordships have emphasised, we cannot afford to cut down on research and technological training in air matters. We must not forget that our total national research Vote is only some 240 millions compared with 3,000 millions in the United States. The problems are many and complex, and as one who has worked in and with the aircraft industry for just on fifty years, I would beg Her Majesty's Government to consider the urgent necessity of setting up an entirely independent—I emphasise "entirely independent"—air tribunal, consisting of a small group of the best brains in the country, backed by an adequate team of specialists. That, as I understand it, is similar to the suggestion submitted to your Lordships by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, who spoke second in this debate.
5.29 p.m.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, in a debate on the future prospects of the air-
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craft industry, it is perhaps fitting that one should recall to memory certain past achievements. Going back exactly ten years from to-day, on July 16, 1948, the Vickers Viscount, the world's first turboprop airliner, first flew. A year later the de Havilland Comet first flew. That that aircraft should have suffered certain setbacks at that time is understandable, for we did not then have the knowledge about metal fatigue that we have now. Similarly, when the Bristol Britannia first flew certain problems arose, for at that time that aircraft was, if I may use the expression, "breaking new ground." Since then those problems have been very satisfactorily settled, and I certainly think that that aircraft now reaches the performance which its manufacturers expected. In fact, I think that is highlighted by the fact that it is manufactured in Canada by Canadair as a Naval reconnaissance aircraft under the designation "C.L.28".
To quote another example of a highly successful aircraft, I should like to mention the English Electric Canberra, with its great versatility and superior performance. This aircraft is produced in America by the Martin Aircraft Company, under the designation "B.57". Whilst not wishing to weary your Lordships with a long list of highly successful aircraft, I should like to mention the de Havilland Dove, of which nearly 500 are now in operation and the success of which led to the production by the de Havilland Company of a four-engined version of this elegant aircraft, named the Heron. In the same way, I imagine, the Vickers Vanguard is being produced as a successor to the Viscount on account of increasing air traffic and, as I have mentioned, the marked success of the Viscount.
A further and recent instance of an aircraft with which we have again been first in the field and have stolen a march, shall I say, on our foreign competitors is the Fairey Rotodyne, the world's first vertical take-off airliner. That airliner flew for the first time last November. It is certainly the only vertical take-off aircraft in the world in which the transition from vertical flight to horizontal flight is achieved in such a smooth manner. In fact, it was recently referred to by the Chief Executive of the Air Registration Board as an example of a perfect aeroplane. I sincerely hope, therefore, that

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the recent planning permission granted by the Minister of Housing and Local Government to the Westland Aircraft Company to provide London with a Thames-side heliport will act as a definite incentive to the British European Airways to consider this British aircraft for inter-city service. Apart from asking the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, whether any progress has been made by B.E.A. on the question of consideration of this aircraft for inter-city work, I should also like to ask him whether Her Majesty's Government are fully satisfied that the technical information they have obtained on this aircraft is sufficient, having regard to any future development possibilities, or is it a case of a Treasury decision conflicting with a technical requirement? I ask that, my Lords, because Government support was withdrawn from this aircraft after it had flown only eight hours.
To consider but two aspects of this problem of the future prospects of the aircraft industry, I think (I hesitate to mention the point, as so many speakers much more qualified than myself have already stressed it) that there is need for a Government lead in this respect. I would certainly stress it with regard to research and development and with regard to transport aircraft. Concerning the former, as stated in the Observer of the 8th September last:
" The future lies in research and the application of British engineering ingenuity to the right projects at the right time."
But to achieve this end a non-decreasing number of design teams must be maintained and a sufficient number of channels, if I may be permitted to put it in that way, of technical thinking must continue to exist from which the right project at the right time may be extracted. Research cannot be stopped and re-started. The momentum of research must be maintained—or should I say sustained—if the aircraft industry after forty years' existence is to maintain its position in the world.
Her Majesty's Government cannot close their eyes to the fact that a number of designers who unfortunately left this country to work in Canada have been attracted over the border and are now working within the American aircraft industry. I well appreciate the fact that the support that Her Majesty's Government can give to the British aircraft industry cannot in any way be on a scale such
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as that provided by the United States Government. But it should be remembered that this industry is our major defence industry, and it cannot be expected to maintain leadership in this constant game of "leap-frog", as one of our manufacturers called it, or entirely to finance development, solely by its rising export orders. I will not go into the export figures of the industry because those have been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, but I should like to point out that the motor industry exported last year up to the figure of £447 million. But that industry owes a great deal to the aircraft industry in the various fields of development, such as streamlining, alloys, brakes, engine efficiency and fuels. In fact, I think it is generally recognised that developments pioneered by the aircraft industry are a considerable asset to the country's general engineering.
Turning now to the second aspect, that of transport aircraft, where a Government lead is certainly required, I would draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that the Americans have produced an aircraft, the Lockheed C.130, the Hercules, which may prove a threat to our aircraft industry. For instance, Australia has recently ordered twelve of these aircraft for the Royal Australian Air Force. I will not go into the technical details of this aircraft, but the larger loads which this aircraft cannot carry can be easily carried by the Douglas C.133A Cargomaster. Your Lordships will no doubt be aware that the Cargo-master can easily accommodate the Thor intermediate-range ballistic missile.
To mention another respect in which the Americans constitute a certain commercial menace (I cannot think of a better word at the moment) for airline operation, the United States aircraft industry is proceeding with the Convair CV.880, the Douglas DC.8 and the Boeing 707, which, as the KC.135 tanker, has been extensively proved as an aircraft. There are also at least three leading American aircraft manufacturers working on supersonic airliner projects. Let us not forget, too, the fact that valuable information is and will be forthcoming from their 110A weapons system, or Mach.-3 chemically fuelled B.70 bomber. In this country, first deliveries of the Vickers VC.10 to B.O.A.C. are scheduled for 1963—three years after the Convair 880 will be available for service. Moreover,

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according to an article which appeared in the Daily Telegraph on June 30, the Army and R.A.F. clash over transport." Whether or not it is Government policy to continue to develop existing types of transport aircraft on the grounds of lower cost, certainly a decisive lead must be taken by the Government; and this must take into account world demand and American competition. But, as I said earlier in my speech, my Lords, the momentum of research must be maintained. That is extremely important, and it has been stressed by many speakers this afternoon. It cannot be slowed down or halted. In the same way as the industry requires a satisfactory number of production lines to make its maximum contribution to our economy and to our defence, so it requires a far greater number of lines of research, a matter to which I hope the Government or their inter-departmental committee will give urgent consideration. I should like to end by saying how grateful we all are to the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord De L'Isle, for initiating this timely debate.
5.45 p.m.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I would certainly echo the last words of the last speaker, in repeating the gratitude that has been already expressed by my noble friend Lord Ogmore from these Benches and in all parts of the House to the noble Viscount, Lord De L'Isle, who not only initiated this debate but set it going in so effective a way. I find it an impertinence to begin to congratulate speakers who in many cases have given far more of their lives to the aircraft industry than I have, but I should like to say how pleased I am to think that the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, and the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, have been able to participate, in view of my own close association with them when I was Minister of Civil Aviation for three years. In those days I used to regard them as the great twin brethren, the Castor and Pollux, of civil aviation. We have heard something to-day about the carrot and the stick. True, Castor applied the stick to me a little more than Pollux applied the carrot, but both were very helpful in their own peculiar idioms. I should like to say also how interested I have been in all the other speeches.
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To-day's debate takes place in something of a different atmosphere from the debate of February 1, 1956, which was initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara. I think that perhaps it is worth quoting one or two points made at that time which have reappeared to-day, in a slightly different context. At that time the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, and I think all the other speakers, took an extremely gloomy view of the aircraft industry, not because of any cuts that were being forced from outside, but because the whole thing was rather close to a mess. Those words were not actually used by the noble Lord, but he felt bound to say of those who had been concerned with the aircraft industry—I think that he was referring to the Minister, officials and leaders of the industry [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 195, col. 725]:
"… they stand condemned before the whole nation as being responsible for an incompetent piece of organisation."
That was what the noble Lord said rather more than two years ago. Later in that same speech, he said [Col. 727]:
" What is so bitterly resented today is that from now on apparently, we are to give up the struggle; we are to admit that we are beaten …"
To-day, the noble Lord was critical of many things that were being done and not being done, but I think that the improvement in the export record, the enormous strides that have been made in exports in the last year, have perhaps altered something of the atmosphere since the beginning of 1956. To-day we find the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, saying, "We can claim that our aeronautical industry is the best in the world "—a submission that did not arouse violent dissent from your Lordships, although, like all such propositions, it is open to argument. I take rather a middle position in all this, perhaps through not being sufficiently close to it nowadays. I stand halfway between the view expressed two years ago, and to some extent to-day, by the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, and that of the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, both speaking with greater knowledge than mine.
There has been a general change in emphasis. I would agree, if it is possible, with almost all the main contentions of this debate: and certainly where the Government have been pressed

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for more financial assistance for research and development; where the Government have been asked to take much more effective steps about Transport Command, and, above all, where the Government have been pressed, as they have been throughout the debate, for decisions. I do not think that the noble Lord's friends—and he has many—would expect him to-day to go into lyrical transports about the speech of the Minister of Supply in another place. Certainly the Minister's own political friends, at any rate in one leading case, found themselves criticising that speech very sharply.
I do not think—it may be no fault of the Minister, who I believe is a very able man—that anybody feels at the moment that the all-important decisions have been made; and therefore I think that most of us will agree that the industry is still left very much in the dark. It may be too much to-day to expect the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, in the short time that has elapsed since the Minister spoke the other clay, to give us any clear decisions not already announced. I only hope that he can do so; but unless and until he can, I think we must preserve in many cases, quite apart from Party politics, an atmosphere of scepticism and anxiety.
However, as I do not wish to repeat what already has been so ably said, I should prefer in the few remarks I make to touch on another aspect. It is one that certainly the noble Lord, Lord Weeks, was dealing with—and once again I apologise for missing some of the earlier part, and I believe the more controversial part, of the noble Lord's remarks. It is the question of supervision. In every industry—and I am talking outside Party politics; it is true of banking, education and almost every human institutional occupation—everyone likes assistance, clear decisions and encouragement from the Government, but does not want supervision from the Government. That is a fact of human nature, if you look for it in university circles, in industrial circles or wherever it may he looked for. When great men from industry come and speak clearly from the point of view of industry, it is important, but one has always to ask oneself: How can this be fitted in with a broad national point of view, which all those gentlemen concerned are per-
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fectly capable of embracing in other activities?
Therefore I come for a moment to the question of supervision. I hope that I shall not be accused of dragging Party politics into a non-Party debate. I understand that when I was out of the Chamber the Labour Party, of which I am a devout member, was criticised by the noble Lord, Lord Weeks. I hope that I shall not be accused of introducing Party politics for the first time if I say that I should be more inclined to accept the views of the noble Lord on this matter if I felt sure that he knew exactly what the Labour Party stood for. That is perhaps a fair reply to a Party "crack", and as I did not hear the "crack", the noble Lord will not expect me to reply at greater length. I understand that he did make a comment of that sort. I know how fair the noble Lord is, but I imagine that he would be the last person to describe himself as a political expert, and perhaps he will not wish to emphasise the political aspect of this question.
LORD WEEKS: May I say that it was not my intention to make a political "crack". I was referring only to what appeared in a Labour statement last year.
LORD PAKENHAM: While I am not here this afternoon to defend nationalisation of any particular industry, in my view it is no more political to defend nationalisation than to criticise nationalisation. Perhaps I may leave the matter there. I was not, however, concerning myself with nationalisation or with topics of that sort, but was trying to deal with this matter in a way that would be reasonably acceptable to all noble Lords and all Parties.
I think it is worth asking ourselves whether, from the point of view not only of supervision of the industry by the Government but also of the Government's decisions which are intended to help the industry, we have the ideal set-up. Here I know that we approach difficult matters. Everybody has his own scheme, and I never find myself able to follow anybody else's scheme until I have studied it carefully in Hansard. Therefore, I do not want to develop an elaborate plan on what might seem to be the spur of the moment. I have thought about it a good deal, however, and, like others, I have had a fairly varied experience close to this subject. It does seem that we have

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reason to wonder whether, to put it mildly, we have the right set-up.
The Minister in another place—I am bound to refer to him a little, because the excellent Minister who will speak to us this afternoon has not yet begun to disclose his thoughts—indicated that he was not satisfied with the present pattern of the industry. To take only one point —although it is not the only one—he wants to see a reduction in the number of firms; and he indicated that he is quite ready to press the industry until it eventually assumes the right shape. So there is no difference between us there: the Government have some intention of pressing the industry to do something which it is not doing at the moment.
It is worth asking: What is the best set-up for this and other purposes? We are all obviously aware of these things, and the noble Lord, Lord Weeks, has already explained them quite clearly. But the complications, from the point of view of the Government, are fairly obvious. They have to consider the production and the sale of military aircraft, and also of civil aircraft. They have to consider, from the point of view of the Services, the use of the military aircraft, and, from the civil point of view, the transport use of civil aircraft. How can that be handled with the smallest number of Ministries?—if that is the object. At present we can take for granted the Service Ministries—and we have the Ministry of Supply and the Ministry of Transport. However you juggle these Ministries about, you will always be left with an answer that is not quite satisfactory—I think the noble Lord, Lord Weeks, will agree with me there.
I should myself venture to differ from those who would advocate rolling civil aviation into a Ministry of Aviation, a Ministry of Aeronautics, or whatever it may be called. I feel that if that were done—and I know that some experts would like to have something more like a Ministry of Aviation or a Ministry of Aeronautics—then the transport end would lose; they would be the weaker side and would get the worst of it. The noble Earl, Lord Swinton, nods, which suggests that he has some sympathy with my point of view. I feel little doubt that that would be the end of that story, and I should not favour that particular method, which would be to take civil
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aviation from transport and add it to the Ministry of Supply, or whatever Ministry was set up.
The noble Lord, Lord Weeks, when I somewhat impertinently interrupted him, felt unable to-day to pronounce on whether he would like to see the Ministry of Supply continue. But, however one proceeds, one cannot think of any improvement on some Ministry of that kind. I am going to make a suggestion about it later but, in my submission, we must have a Ministry of that sort. The noble Lord, Lord Weeks, as I understand it, would like to have some Committee which would report to some superior Cabinet Minister, and this Committee would, so to speak, co-ordinate the Ministry of Supply (if it were still there) and other Ministries. That, I think, would make the task of the Minister of Supply still more difficult, and in the end, I think, impossible. With great respect, therefore, I should think that on this point the better method is that which was adopted by the Labour Government—and it may be the policy now, because, the veil has not fallen aside—of having a sub-committee under a senior Minister. There is no secret of the fact that it was the late Lord Addison in our time who had such a committee. That committee brought together the various Ministries, but did not try to do their work for them or set up as a sort of rival to those other Ministers. That was the policy and, so far as I know, still is; and I feel that it is a better policy than that suggested by 'he noble Lord.
What I have just said may suggest that I cannot think of anything better than what has been operated in the past. But I want to disclaim any desire to be too modest, because, in fact, I believe that there is a better answer available. My answer—and all we can do is to pool our minds in these matters—would be to try to render the Ministry of Supply more effective than it has ever been under any Government, whatever its complexion. It seems to me that the real trouble about the Ministry of Supply is that it has never known enough of what was going on. It has never been inside the industry so as to render itself effective. I am not going into the question of powers, because I do not think that is really the problem at the moment. The

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real question in this, it seems to me, is to make sure that the Ministry of Supply have sufficient knowledge, bearing in mind that in all these matters knowledge is power. So in differing, I dare say, from the noble Lord, Lord Weeks, and others, I should like to see a Ministry of Supply rendered more effective by the addition of a Board.
This Board would contain representatives from outside the industry, but it would also include important individuals with contemporary or recent knowledge of the industry. In some respects it might he regarded rather as the Bank of England is regarded by the other banks, an analogy different from the one used about iron and steel. It should be a Board outside the industry, but respected in the industry. In my opinion, such a Board would be far more valuable in advising the Minister than any Department of the Civil Service, however well-intentioned. And I do not think we can leave it to the industry to supply its own Board. I should like to see something much closer to the Bank of England than any of the other analogies which have been brought forward. My view is, I repeat, that we should make the Ministry of Supply much more effective. Other noble Lords may have better ideas.
I do not want to say more than another few sentences. It is obvious, I think, that none of us is quite happy about the industry, in spite of all the fine work which is done there. None of us is quite happy about the set-up, and none of us, perhaps, is quite happy about his own ideas for reform. The noble Lord, Lord Weeks, said that he was not quite sure that he knew enough to give positive answers to all these questions. If he does not know enough with his inside experience arid his remarkable ability, there is certainly nobody else who does know enough to be dogmatic. I should like to end on that note. Here is the problem of a vital industry which we all think ought to be improved, although none of us is quite sure of our answer. Here, if anywhere, stands out the clear need for an inquiry. I know that in this conclusion I am speaking for the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and for my colleagues on this side, but I speak also, I believe, for many other noble Lords. It has been a privilege to throw my small ideas into this great debate.
6.2 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, the starting point for any debate such as this must, as my noble friend Lord De L'Isle explained, be the Defence White Paper of 1957. I do not think your Lordships can be in any doubt that the policies set out in the White Paper will in the long run have as profound an effect on the future of the aircraft industry as did rearmament for Korea. The repercussions of that White Paper will continue to be felt by the industry for many years to come. At the outset, therefore, let me try to put that change in policy into perspective.
During the 1939–45 War this great industry employed nearly 2 million people. The immediate post-war contraction, therefore, was enormous. Indeed, the total labour force for the industry at the outbreak of the Korean War in 1951 had declined to about 150,000. To meet that crisis in Korea the labour force was increased to 275,000, and large sums of money were spent by Her Majesty's Government on machine tools and modern factories. It is easy to be wise after the event, and perhaps in the light of after events that may have been too large. The industry now employs about 250,000 people. The inevitable effect of the policies set out in the 1957 White Paper will be a reduction in expenditure on aircraft production of about 9 per cent. over each of the next two years, and a contraction over the next five years in the industry's labour force of about 100,000. It will return, that is, to its pre-Korean size.
Redundancy on this scale will obviously pose many very awkward questions. It will, of course, be spread over a period, and in fact the numbers involved represent, I believe, a very small fraction of the people who, in the normal course of events, change their employment or retire from work altogether. Her Majesty's Government are well aware of the fact that in some areas, and indeed for some firms, there will be difficulties. Northern Ireland particularly springs to mind. I can assure the noble Viscount, Lord Knollys, who raised this point particularly, that every effort will be made to ease hardship where it arises. But your Lordships will appreciate that no Government can go so far as to order aircraft to be built which will not in fact be required. Individual companies in

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the industry are now adapting themselves to these circumstances with, if I may say so, commendable resourcefulness and courage. They are spreading their interests well beyond the world of aircraft, and I think more firms will have to follow suit.
In this context, too, your Lordships will remember that the aircraft industry also plays a leading part in the development and production of guided weapons. The labour employed will, however, always be relatively small when compared with that of the aircraft industry proper. It will not, therefore, go far to absorb the redundancies resulting from decreased orders for aircraft. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, thinks that we on this side of the House underrate the importance of the industry. I can assure him that we do no such thing. It was, indeed, because of the importance which Her Majesty's Government attach to the aircraft industry that a Working Party of senior officials was set up to consider, in the light of current defence policy, the future of the British aircraft industry and the probable extent of Government support. Both the noble Lord, Lord Sempill, and the noble Lord, Lord Oamore, want a more elaborate high-powered form of committee—one that can carry out closer cross-examination.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, in case the noble Lord is under a misapprehension, may I say that what we particularly require is an independent committee. We were not criticising the power.
LORD MANCROFT: I remember that the noble Lord put that point in the debate we had at the turn of the year. But I wonder whether it would find much that this committee will not find. I wonder whether it would not jog the elbow of the industry. I bear in mind the noble Lord's point, and I think that this committee is doing a good job of work and finding out what we want to know. As a result of their work, it has been decided that, in addition to continuing to sponsor and finance aeronautical research and development to meet defence requirements, Her Majesty's Government will also continue to make financial contributions to aeronautical research in the expanding field of civil transport where it is not already covered by the research necessary for defence.
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I agree with my noble friend Lord Swinton that research is the aircraft industry's lifeblood, and I agree with him that research is indivisible. Her Majesty's Government intend to maintain their expenditure on research at its present level. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, too, that more than most industries the aircraft industry must make its plans for the future far in advance. The noble Lord, Lord Kindersley, reminded us that years must pass before ideas can be translated from the drawing board into fully proven aircraft. The expenditure involved, of course, is stiff.
What Her Majesty's Government are doing, therefore, is to underwrite the future for the industry by continuing to support the basic research necessary for it to survive. This research will be carried out partly in Government establishments and partly in industry, including. let me assure the noble Lord, Lord Adrian, the construction of research aircraft, In the long term the industry must stand on its own feet—perhaps one should say on its own undercarriage—but it would be too much to ask it, at this critical stage in its development, to carry the full cost of aeronautical research.
VISCOUNT DE L'ISLE: At what point does the noble Lord see the industry standing on its own feet, if that means covering all its research and development out of its own resources? Does the noble Lord see that happening while the American industry is being sponsored by the American Government?
LORD MANCROFT: I think it is impossible to forecast the date.
VISCOUNT DE L'ISLE: If the noble Lord tells us that as long as the American aircraft industry enjoys this kind of subsidy the British Government will provide a pro rata assistance to the British aircraft industry, that would be telling us something; but if he remains as vague as he is, nothing will be added to our knowledge.
LORD MANCROFT: I said "in the long run." I cannot give the noble Viscount the pro rata figure, because the American industry has the backing of an enormous military defence programme which we cannot possibly equal or bring into the balance sheet. So far as development for civil aviation is concerned, as

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opposed to research, Her Majesty's Government will expect the industry itself to accept financial responsibility, as indeed it has already done in the case of major new civil aircraft projects. Some help beyond research may, however, be required for developing the next generation of civil aircraft which are likely to embody important advances in techniques. Lot me assure the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, who particularly raised this point, that Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to consider on their merits individual cases for financial help.
What we envisage in the immediate future, therefore, is a partnership between State and industry, the one financing basic research and the other financing aircraft development and production. As the industry's financial strength grows, so will the Government look to it to shoulder more of the cost of civil research. In this partnership, therefore, we hope that the industry will be able to exploit to the full the splendid position which it has won for itself in the world of civil aviation. It is this partnership, and the nature of this partnership, that your Lordships have been discussing in considerable detail, and I think we agree with the noble Lord, Lord Weeks, and the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, that none of us are quite clear in our minds as to how we should like to see this partnership develop. The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, put his finger on it when he gave the banking analogy and said that we welcome Government interference to our benefit but not when they tell us what to do.
I listened with pleasure to the argument between the noble Lord, Lord Weeks, and the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, on the political basis. If I may be political, I most firmly disbelieve in the nationalisation of the aircraft industry. I did not hear noble Lords opposite give any firm indication of what their views were; perhaps that will be reserved for another time. The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, asked me a direct question in the course of putting forward some ideas for the control of the industry in the future through Government channels, ideas with most of which I agreed. Yesterday my noble Leader explained to the House the difficulty constitutionally of stating what is being done in the way of Cabinet Committees. I think it was the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, who set up a Cabinet Committee on that par-
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ticular subject. Perhaps I can repeat that I thought I agreed with a great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, said.
It is clear, however, that the large number of companies which now comprise the industry is not the most efficient organisation to compete effectively in world markets, particularly against increasingly powerful American competition. It is Her Majesty's Government's policy to encourage greater integration of the companies to bring about a concentration of economic and technical strength to exploit those fields in which this country has an advantage. I am well aware that the policy of rationalisation may not be universally welcomed, but I am sure it is both inevitable and right. It has been discussed in some detail in the debate this afternoon. I was surprised to find how much support it had on both sides of the House. There was talk about shot-gun weddings. That is the last thing we desire. But I was surprised to find that if there was not support for a shot-gun wedding between the aircraft Industry and the Government. at least there seemed to he no opposition to the sight of father being seen twiddling with his gunroom key. That policy has not been worked out in its details by the industry, but I am certain from the reactions I have seen in the last year or so that, whilst accepting the difficulties, they realise that the movement must be in that direction.
One of the fundamental requirements for shaping the industry's future is, of course, a knowledge of the orders which Her Majesty's Government are likely to place. In this respect discussions with the industry have taken place, and so far as is possible—it is not easy—future aircraft requirements have been made known. With this knowledge, and making allowance for prospects in other markets, the industry should be able to reorganise in a manner which will make the best use of the great capital investment which has been made in it over recent years. It should be possible to deploy to the best advantage the skilled labour force which it possesses.
The world demand for civil aircraft is growing with rising standards of living. As the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, pointed out, it will obviously continue to grow apace. So also is the capacity of

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our rivals growing to meet this demand—growing formidably. As the noble Lord, Lord Knollys, reminded us, Russia is now one of those rivals. But the partnership to which I have just referred is also a formidable one. The noble Viscount, Lord De L'Isle, asked me what steps have been taken by Her Majesty's Government to co-ordinate the British aircraft industry with the aircraft industries of the leading N.A.T.O. Powers in Europe so as to provide both for civil and for military aircraft a market of economic size which could support a fully-equipped and progressive European aircraft industry. The aircraft industry is still, of, course, a private enterprise, and Her Majesty's Government have no powers to co-ordinate the industry with that of our European allies in any formal sense. Nevertheless, there is a growing commercial association between the United Kingdom and European industry because such a state of affairs is obviously mutually advantageous. For example, British engines are installed in Dutch Fokker Friendships and in the French Caravelle (incidentally, de Havillands gave some assistance in that design); and Bristol engines are manufactured under licence in France and Italy. Conversely, French engines (the Turboméc range) are manufactured by Blackburns.
As to a common market in the military field, the fundamental difficulties are those of framing a common operational requirement together with the dwindling demand for military aircraft. But we do not neglect any opportunities, either in N.A.T.O. or Western European Union, of bringing the merits of our aircraft crisply to the attention of our Allies. In so far as new combat aircraft may be required, the increasing emphasis on interdependence provides the opportunity of evolving a generally acceptable type.
In regard to civil aircraft, the conception of a common European market, protected from outside—that is, from American competition—is frankly something of an illusion. The major European civil airlines operate on a worldwide network, and if they are to remain in business without large subsidies they must, of course, be fully competitive. They are, in fact, driven to buy the aircraft which is economic in operation and has a passenger appeal. If the European
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industry can produce such an aircraft it will be bought, not only by Europe but by the rest of the world—remember the Viscount, and remember, as the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, told us, that it was bought not because it was British but because it was best. On the other hand, it is unrealistic to expect people like K.L.M. or S.A.S., with little in the way of a domestic industry, to commit themselves to buy British or French types—or a European type—unless they are convinced that it will be better than the product of the American industry.
The noble Viscount, Lord De L'Isle, asked whether we considered it possible for the industry to sell abroad a military aircraft of a type for which there are no orders for the Royal Air Force or for the Fleet Air Arm. He asked, in particular, what steps we are taking to help manufacturers to sell to the Germans the Saunders Roe fighter. I must concede at once the basic argument underlying the question. It is indeed most difficult to sell abroad a military aircraft which does not bear the cachet of an order from the Royal Air Force or the Royal Navy, and with it the assurance that the aircraft will be developed to a satisfactory technical and operational standard. And we must accept that the fewer the types ordered for the Services, the less, after a time lag of several years, will be our export business in military aircraft. I agree also that, in general, it would be a risky financial venture for a manufacturer to put large sums of money into the development of an aircraft merely against the uncertain prospect of receiving orders from overseas. The risk remains great, even if the Government make some financial contribution towards development in the interest of increasing the stock of aeronautical knowledge.
But, as the noble Lord, Lord Adrian suggested, it would be indefensible, economically, to develop and order, at great cost, for our own Services aircraft which are not required in the present strategic design, merely in the hope that it would help to maintain our export trade. Nevertheless, there are two examples where overseas sales have been made, despite the lack of a Service order. The Folland Gnat has been sold to India and Finland; and its engine, the Orpheus, has been adopted for the N.A.T.O. light

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fighter as well. As regards the unfortunate P.177, I can assure my noble friend Lord De L'Isle that we took all steps we properly could, at ministerial, operational and technical levels, to bring its merits plainly before the German authorities. My Lords, the rest is known to you.
Several noble Lords raised the question of military backing. The point is, I am afraid, that in this country military orders on the American scale are quite impossible. The only alternative is a Government contribution to development costs. That is where financial considerations force us to be selective. My noble friend Lord De L'Isle and others asked me whether it would be possible economically to recover the research and development cost for any large civil aircraft for which a certain market is limited. In general, it is unlikely that an order from the Corporations, or by the Royal Air Force for Transport Command, would, of itself, make development an economic proposition. However, it is one of the principal tasks of the Transport Aircraft Requirements Committee to integrate home demand, both in time and type, as far as it makes sense to do so; and this may go some way, rarely the whole way, to produce orders for the numbers required to reach the "break even" point. In addition, the Transport Aircraft Requirements Committee keeps the need of the export market very much in mind in considering the development of a particular aircraft, and I think it is encouraging to observe the help given by home users in this regard. In the last twelve months the DH. 121, for British European Airways, and the VC. 10 for B.O.A.C. have been launched as completely private ventures; commercial judgments that confirm the belief of sufficient home and export orders being obtainable to justify the cost of development.
Several of your Lordships—Lord Ogmore, Lord De L'Isle and Lord Shepherd, have all touched on the development of a supersonic civil aircraft without first constructing a supersonic bomber or tanker for the R.A.F. It is undoubtedly true that some of the work which would have been done on the bomber now cancelled would have helped in the design and production of our first supersonic transport. But surely no one would be so rash as to propose that we should develop at great cost,
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merely for the sake of the supersonic transport, this bomber, or any other military project which turns out not to be required for its primary purpose. There remains a large volume of supersonic research and development in our programme, and much of this may well be of benefit to the supersonic transport, whatever form it may ultimately take. The cancellation of the bomber does not affect the Government's determination to press on with the studies of a supersonic transport aircraft which it has launched in co-operation with the majority of the leading aircraft companies. Many of your Lordships have asked about the Canberra.
VISCOUNT DE L'ISLE: May I interrupt the noble Lord for a moment? To me "press on with the studies" has a most sinister sound. Does that phrase mean going to commission and contract for the development of a supersonic aircraft, or does it mean that they are pursuing studies which they will invite the industry to take up for their own consideration?
LORD MANCROFT: It may be that, or several other suggestions. Not much progress has been made.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: It is really important to the industry and to the House to know. Those of us who think that there ought to be a supersonic bomber have our view. If the Government differ from that, then it is a Government responsibility and they will not proceed with the supersonic bomber. Nobody would suggest that if it is wrong to have a supersonic bomber we should make it in order to help with a supersonic civil aircraft. But what does seem to me important—and I think it is most important that the noble Lord should make it clear—is this: if you are not going to do research on a supersonic bomber which would be equally valuable for the civil aircraft, then it behoves the Government to make a larger contribution towards the cost of the supersonic civil aircraft.
LORD MANCROFT: Yes, I fully take the noble Earl's point; I think it is a vital one. But the noble Earl would hardly expect me to do any budgeting at this stage of the procedure. I accept the validity of the point he makes.
LORD OGMORE: Surely the Government must have had views on this matter, having regard to the statement made in another place by the Minister of Supply. This is nothing new. The Minister of Supply laid down this policy: that from a certain time the civil research would become "identifiable." That is the point about which we are confused. What does it mean, and when is the civil research going to be "identifiable" from the military research?
LORD MANCROFT: I think the noble Lord is making rather heavy weather about this word "identifiable". There is no magic in the word. I think I have explained perfectly clearly what is happening, and I am sorry that I cannot go into the category of pounds, shillings and pence in regard to what the Government will do about it. I think I have explained perfectly clearly what the Government's plans are, now that the supersonic bomber has been dropped.
LORD OGMORE: So far as I am concerned—I do not know about other noble Lords—I am as confused as I was when I came into the Chamber. The noble Lord has not clarified the position. I think that that opinion is held by other noble Lords as well as myself, but I do not know.
LORD MANCROFT: Well, I am sorry if I have not clarified it to the noble Lord. I thought I had put the position as clearly as I could. I do not want to weary the rest of the House by repeating what I have already said. I have nothing further to add at this stage on this matter, save to say that I appreciate the importance of it; and I think that the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, has put the problem as clearly as it can be put.
I will return to the vexed question of the Canberra. I am afraid that we have not yet reached a decision on the aircraft to replace the invaluable Canberra. It must be able to fulfil both strike and reconnaissance rôles and it must have the necessary speed for this purpose. The decision to stop development of a supersonic, strategic, manned bomber bore no reference to the potential requirements of the Canberra replacement. This aircraft must also be able with its own airborne equipment, to strike targets by night and by day. It must have a good runway performance and it must have adequate
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range. I am afraid I am not able to go much further than that at present.
Your Lordships, and particularly Lord Brabazon of Tara and Lord Merrivale, have given some details of the Fairey Rotodyne. We have indeed made fine progress on the development of this unique aircraft. Given suitable sites, the Fairey Rotodyne will be able to do the journey from the centre of London to Paris in approximately the same time that it now takes to drive out to London Airport or to cross Hyde Park Corner on a wet Wednesday afternoon. It will have many other uses—for example, overseas, in such areas as the East and West Indies, and for cross-Channel cargo work. This aircraft represents a completely new approach to the problem of inter-city operations, and we believe, therefore, that the Rotodyne offers an excellent chance of a major break-through in a field of aviation of immense importance for the future. The aircraft has now been flying for some eight months, during which it has completed many hours of vertical and direct forward flight.
So much for the technical progress of the aircraft. However, while this project was conceived and carried out by private enterprise, Government establishments have given active assistance to the firm, and the cost of development has so far been largely met by the Exchequer. The Rotodyne is, however, intended primarily for civil purposes (although it may ultimately have a military application), and in accordance with the policy recently announced by the Minister of Supply we have now asked the companies concerned in this project to show their commercial faith in it by putting up a substantial part of the money required to complete its development. Her Majesty's Government are still awaiting firm proposals from these companies.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has suggested Commonwealth consultation on aircraft requirements. My right honourable friend the Minister of Supply has convened a Commonwealth Operators' Conference in London in September next. The noble Lord also mentioned the question of noise. That may well be one of the subjects which will feature high on the agenda. The use of London Airport by the Russian TU.104 has been carefully considered, and my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation has said

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that that aircraft will be welcomed as soon as its noise is reduced to an acceptable level. This Russian aircraft has been banned from New York for the same reason. We have had this point raised very often in your Lordships' House. Aircraft noise can be a serious nuisance, and I do not think your Lordships would wish Her Majesty's Government to weaken in their attempts to mitigate its effects in the vicinity of city airports.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I was not asking Her Majesty's Government to weaken. I was asking them to try to get an international agreement so that there would not be, as at present, the position whereby certain companies accept the TU. 104, and so get a good deal of traffic, while we do not. We miss that traffic, and I believe that there should be an international agreement on noise.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, but unfortunately politics rear their ugly head in this connection, as the noble Lord knows. But I entirely agree with what he has said. The noble Lords, Lord Kindersley, Lord Weeks and others, suggested the use of Transport Command for the proving of and "removing the bugs" from civil transport aircraft and their associated engines. I am glad to assure those noble Lords that this suggestion is already being carefully considered, and I hope that something will come of it. I think I have said enough on this complex and difficult subject to show that Her Majesty's Government have every confidence in this great and exciting industry. Indeed, without such confidence it would be irresponsible to continue Government support for civil aeronautical research.
We are well aware that the industry faces a period of pretty sharp readjustment. It has faced readjustments in the past and emerged with success. It is going to face some pretty brutal competition, but it has faced that before with success. But there are plenty of bright spots, too. The industry is exporting aircraft and aero engines on a scale never before equalled. As the noble Lords, Lord Brabazon of Tara and Lord Knollys, told us, last year for the second year running, its exports were valued at over £100 million. In the first six months of this year, exports were running at an even greater rate. The industry has goods to
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offer which cannot at the moment be equalled by any other supplier. It produced the first short-range turbo-prop—the Viscount—and the first long-range turbo-prop in the Britannia. The Comet will soon be in active airline service—the first pure jet airliner.
The United Kingdom aero engine industry in particular, is in a strong competitive position. Not only do their engines power our own civil transports but they are used by our competitors—the Dutch Fokker Friendship, to which I have referred, the French Caravelle, and in some versions of the latest American jet airliners. Her Majesty's Government do not believe that these achievements will vanish overnight, however stiff and determined the foreign challenge may be. That there are difficulties facing the industry, and difficulties facing Her Majesty's Government in their relations with the industry, are perfectly clear from the debate that has taken place. That there are decisions of far-reaching importance still to be taken is also perfectly clear; and that it would be rash and dangerous to jump to decisions brought about by far-reaching changes in our national policy and in technological development is likewise clear.
Your Lordships will be well aware of the fact that certain of the questions put to me this afternoon are as yet unanswered. They are unanswered because they require an immense amount of consideration, careful discussion and research before a decision is reached. To go off "at half-cock" in an industry as large and important as this, and to produce a decision which might have to be reversed in a short while, to throw the industry into confusion merely for the sake of coming quickly to just any conclusion, rather than reaching a sound decision in time, would, I believe, be wrong. I feel that the industry has as bright an opportunity as it has ever had. It can, I am certain, emerge from this necessary and difficult phase of reorganisation stronger than ever before and with an even more prosperous future; but we are all well aware of the fact that it is not going to be easy.
6.37 p.m.
VISCOUNT DE L'ISLE: My Lords, I should like to start by thanking those noble Lords who have come here to-day and contributed so notably to this, debate. I should also like to thank the

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noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, who has replied for Her Majesty's Government for the agreeable manner in which he has replied, as he always does to our debates. I wish I could say as much for the content of his remarks. I shall certainly go away as depressed as I came—and I came pretty depressed.
I should have expected that in writing the White Paper of 1957, Her Majesty's Government would have considered all the wider context of the consequences of that; but apparently it has taken another eighteen months, and still major points are undecided. And all the time development goes on in other spheres. Our competitors are going ahead while we wait upon Government decisions which I believe ought to have been taken months, even years, ago. I fear that it may be written as it has been written of so many other episodes in our national life, "Too little, and too late." I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

SMALL COAL AND BRIQUETTES
6.38 p.m.
LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what progress they can report in the manufacture and sale of briquettes from small coal for household and other use. The noble Lord said: My Lords, we all know that the increase of machine mining has led to a great increase in the proportion of small coal turned out from our mines. In 1956 —the last year for which I have detailed figures—roughly one-fourth of our output, say 50 million tons, was large coal. Of this, 10 million tons went to the railways and 30 million tons to the domestic consumer. Some housewives might be surprised to know that in that year 90 per cent. of the domestic coal was large coal. Of the whole output, 90 million tons, roughly 45 per cent. is slags and "smalls". Of this amount nearly one-half went to the power stations, the rest being fairly evenly divided between industry and coke ovens. All these people had specially equipped themselves to burn this type of coal. All this was in the middle of a trade boom.
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To-day, of course, conditions are very different. Industry is using less fuel and power, and stocks are piling up. One hears that a great deal of the stocks consists of small coal, and that, of course, is a natural development. At the same time export markets are drying up, particularly those for small coal; in fact, those markets are now almost nonexistent. I am not sure whether large coal can be sold abroad at the moment—I presume that it can. At any rate, it would be considerably easier to sell than small coal. The policy of the National Coal Board of trying to shift demand away from large coal, while at the same time trying to increase the proportion of large coal mined is obviously common sense. In furtherance of this policy anything that can be done to induce the consumers of large coal to substitute what I should call "reconstituted large coal"—in other words, briquettes made from small coal—also appears to be sense.
The National Coal Board are fully aware of this, as is shown by paragraphs 153 to 159 of the National Coal Board's Report for 1957. But when one turns to performance, however, deeds have not kept up with words. Briquettes are of various sorts. There are prepared smokeless briquettes and pitchbound briquettes; and there is an experiment going on to briquette coal without a binding; and they vary in size from small ovals up to big blocks for railways overseas, which, so far as I remember, weigh about 13 kilos.
There are figures which I have been able to gather about briquettes. Fifty years ago we were producing about 1½ million tons a year; twenty-five years ago, 1 million tons; and ten years ago, 1½ million tons, but of this a vast proportion went for exports. Last year we produced approximately 1·9 million tons, and exports accounted for only about one-tenth of this amount. Of this 1·9 million tons, the railways took over 800,000 tons and their consumption is going to increase. Of the remaining 1·1 million tons, Phurnacite, a manufactured smokeless fuel, accounted for 700,000 tons, and production and consumption of that very excellent fuel are increasing. It is a good anthracite substitute. The balance of 400.000 tons must have been accounted for mainly by the pitchbound small briquettes and

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ovoids for burning in domestic grates in substitution for large coal. This is not a very great amount out of 30 million tons used by the domestic consumer. I think one can readily claim that progress in the use of briquettes has been more that of the snail than that of the hare, or even the tortoise.
However, when we turn to the economics of production we find still more ominous signs. In 1956, as shown in the National Coal Board's accounts, there was a small profit on briquettes; but in 1957 this had turned into a loss of £151,000. A profit of £250,000 was made in South Wales, which is the traditional home of the railway briquette, and, I understand, of Phurnacite, which between them account for 1½ million tons out of the total. On these, the profit was £250,000, which is a reasonable figure. The losses seem to have been accounted for as to £263,000 in the North Eastern Division and £117,000 in the East Midlands; that is, £380,000 for an output, presumably, of the odd balance of the 400,000 tons. When the National Coal Board's Report says
" Pitchbound briquettes are not economical to produce ".
I presume it refers to the losses in the East Midlands and the North East area Division.
If the production of these briquettes resulted in turning coal which was unusable by domestic consumers into something they could burn, it is rather difficult to see how the operation could have been conducted at so large a loss, unless the raw material was charged up to the briquetting plants at too high a price. There may be other reasons than one can gather on the surface, but clearly something needs looking into here. On the face of it, to turn small coal, which cannot be sold, into something which can be a substitute for large coal seems, prima facie, an operation which ought to show a profit. There may be snags. I told the Minister I was going to raise this point, and I look forward to the result of his researches.
In general, I know that briquettes can be used by railways. Before the war, one South American railway used practically nothing else. I know by experience that Phurnacite is an excellent sub-
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stitute for anthracite, and I presume that anthracite can still be sold abroad easily. It only remains to push the sale of the other forms of briquettes for domestic purposes, as I believe is done on the Continent. The latest Coal Board advertisement says, inter alia:
"By ordering small coal which is cheaper you will save money."
So they are still trying to persuade the domestic consumer to use small coal. In the National Coal Board's Report for 1957 they write about various experimental methods of making briquettes. In paragraphs 155 and 156 they mention progress with a process of making briquettes without a pitch binder, from ordinary bituminous coal. They say that plans for a pilot plant were being prepared at the end of the year. I believe I am right in thinking that this process was thought of over four years ago. Why has no pilot plant been erected earlier?
I wonder whether the National Coal Board's research in this line of country is being given clear directives; whether the lure of smokeless fuel for the future may not be obscuring the need to turn out something for the present which may be non-smokeless but which at the same time is burnable by domestic consumers, thus using a lot of small coal which there is at the moment. If the National Coal Board think this sort of briquette cannot be made successfully and that the only research worth doing is for the future, in pursuit of the smokeless fuel, then let them say so; but let them have an objective and be careful that the best is not the enemy of the good. If, indeed, they can turn out an ordinary burnable briquette from small smoky coals to-day, let them do so. If there is insufficient demand, let them look to the sales department whose business it is to create demand. If the price is too high—and here, I suspect, is the real cause—let them examine very carefully the price which they charge the briquetting plants for the small coals they cannot sell elsewhere. Quite clearly, it is foolish to charge up small coals to these plants at a price which they could sell them at only if there happened to be the demand, which there is not to-day. By bringing these facts to the attention of the Minister I hope that I am fulfilling a small public need.
6.49 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I should like, very briefly, to support what the noble Lord has said. I am sorry that I did not give notice of my intention to intervene. I remember that when I raised this matter with your Lordships about five years ago, I think it was, sometime after the big outbreak of deaths caused by fog in 1952, we were assured that the making of these briquettes was to be proceeded with as a matter of considerable urgency. I believe that the same point was raised when the Clean Air Bill was being debated in your Lordships' House. The words which the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, has just spoken rather fill me with alarm, in that so little progress has been made towards these briquettes and making this form of coal available. If we are to make some parts of the country so-called "clean air" parts, there must be enough fuel of the right type to burn, so that the air will not get polluted with the coal, as it is at the moment. I trust that the Government will regard this as a matter of very considerable urgency, because I feel that five years or more since the promises that were made to me is a lone time.
6.50 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I must express gratitude to my noble friend Lord Hawke for the way that he has put his Question, because I know he will not mind my saying that it is seldom that a noble Lord puts down a Question in your Lordships' House and then proceeds to go on and answer so much of it himself. I must say, though, that there are still some remarks to be made on the subject, but in view of the hour I will endeavour to make them as short as I can, in order not to detain your Lordships.
The question of the production and sale of briquettes is an important one and one to which a great deal of attention is being given. We realise, as my noble friend said, that it is most desirable to turn small coal, which is in good supply, into briquettes, in order that they can be used to supplement the supplies of large coal. But the point to remember, and which one must stress, is that the basis of briquette manufacture must be small coal of good quality, and that briquetting of itself affords no outlet for small coal with a high ash content—in other words, of poor quality.
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My noble friend told us that the traditional type of briquette is one in which the small coal is bound by pitch, and the National Coal Board are producing as much of this type as they can sell. I believe that the production last year was a little below the figure given by my noble friend—I have it as 1¼ million tons. The biggest user of these briquettes is British Railways, whose purchases, incidentally, doubled between 1953 and 1957, and who this year have been buying at an annual rate of just over 1 million tons. My noble friend Lord Hawke referred to the losses being made by the National Coal Board on briquetting operations, particularly in the North Eastern Division. I am bound to say that that situation applies to the majority of the briquetting plants operated by the Board. I must devote a moment or two to the reasons for this, because there are reasons for it other than those which my noble friend put forward. I said that the major part of the Board's briquette production is taken by British Railways. The briquettes are sold to them at a negotiated price which, whilst not less than the price of the large coals normally supplied to the Railways, is still below the cost of production.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I interrupt my noble friend there, because I have not a right of reply later on? Am I not right in thinking that briquettes continue to be made in the South Wales Division, and that the South Wales Division is the one which shows quite a decent profit on its briquette making?
LORD CHESHAM: My noble friend is perfectly right. It is principally due to the fact, as he mentioned before, that Phurnacite is also made in South Wales and makes the biggest profit of all, thereby making it look rather like that. The reason why the Railways have not been asked to pay a price which covers the cost of production is that they are accepting the briquettes in substitution for the large coal which they prefer. They are being asked to do this, in the public interest, to avoid the necessity of importing additional quantities of large coal at a considerable cost to the balance of payments.
My noble friend mentioned that endeavours by the National Coal Board have been going on for some time past

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to develop new types, and they have in fact devoted a great deal of money and effort to this end. He mentioned the type which is in plentiful supply—that is, Phurnacite. The point I would quickly like to mention is that it is a smokeless fuel made by a special process, and it comes from a narrow range of smokeless coals. It is, as he said, equivalent to a high-grade anthracite and is designed for use in domestic closed stoves. He told us also—and he is quite right—that the Board are developing another new process known as the "Shape" process, which binds the coal together without the use of pitch or any other binder which causes smoke. A pilot plant is working in South Wales on this process, but again I must stress that it is confined to naturally smokeless coals. Whilst mentioning smokeless coals, I think it must be said that the eye of the National Coal Board is turned to the future, because briquette production and the type of briquette being such as they are at the present time, briquettes are not always very popular with the Railways. The Board, as I have said, are producing all that they can sell from their present plant, and further developments which would cost a great deal more money are rather inhibited by the doubtful future for a smoky briquette in view of the Clean Air Act and what people prefer.
The real problem with which the Board is faced is, therefore, to find a commercial process for making smokeless briquettes from suitable kinds of smoky small coals which are in good supply, rather than using the scarcer, naturally smokeless coals or carbonisation coals. The Board's aim is to produce from smoky small coals a superior type of smokeless briquette which will burn well, which will be easy to light in open grates, and which will, above all, be reasonably priced. As my noble friend mentioned, there are various processes which are being investigated towards this end, and they are in or approaching the pilot plant stage. But your Lordships will, I am sure, recognise that pilot plants are essential to test the economics of any such process before the Board embark on the heavy investment which would be required for commercial-scale production. I think your Lordships might like to know that the most promising development in this field is one for making briquettes from small coal which undergoes a heat treatment process so as to drive off the smoky substances, and it
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is then briquetted whilst still hot. The Board are at the moment actively planning a pilot plant in the Midlands for this process.
My Lords, if I may sum up, the Coal Board are producing as much of the traditional variety of briquette as they can sell. They are selling Phurnacite; they are developing "Shape" fuel, and they are also pursuing the development of newer processes. Many difficulties still remain, but I can assure my noble friend that the National Coal Board are doing all they can to overcome them, and I am certain that they will note very carefully all that he has said to-day.

COSTS OF LEASES BILL
7.0 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

PARK LANE IMPROVEMENT BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

DISTRIBUTION OF INDUSTRY (INDUSTRIAL FINANCE) BILL
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
BRADFORD CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
MAIDSTONE CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
PIER AND HARBOUR ORDER (GREAT YARMOUTH) CONFIRMATION BILL
PIER AND HARBOUR ORDER (KING'S LYNN CONSERVANCY) CONFIRMATION BILL
Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House.

TEES VALLEY AND CLEVELAND WATER BILL
Reported, with Amendments.
House adjourned at two minutes past seven o'clock.