Sitting of 27 February 1958

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  HOLY TRINITY HOUNSLOW BILL (By Order)
    MANCHESTER CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
    Second Reading deferred till Monday next at Seven o'clock.
    WALLASEY CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
    Second Reading deferred till Thursday 13th March.
  PETITION

    Missile Launching Sites
    Mr. Hector Hughes: I wish to present a Petition by way of protest against the establishment of missile bases in Britain. The Petition has been signed extensively by citizens from every part of Aberdeen.
    It sets out in substance that the Petitioners are gravely concerned at the Government's intention to set up missile bases in Britain; that such bases are an incitement to attack by a possible enemy; that the Scandinavian policy in this regard should be adopted; that Britain can lead the world away from war and towards peace; and that immediate steps be taken to these ends. The Petition concludes:
    "… and your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray."
    To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Monopolies Commission
    Mr. Wadeasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a general reference to the Monopolies Commission, under Section 15 of the Act of 1948, of exclusivity agreements, sole agency agreements and similar practices.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Sir David Eccles): No, Sir. These practices often serve a good commercial purpose and I see no justification for a general inquiry into them.
    Mr. Wade: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many forms of restrictionism which are not caught by the Restrictive Trade Practices Act? Does he intend to make any general reference to the Commission, or has that procedure been abandoned?
    Sir D. Eccles: I shall soon be considering further references to the Commission. I am ready to consider any evidence any hon. Member brings to me, but at the moment I do not think I shall make a general reference.

    Manufactured Goods (Standards of Quality)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a further statement concerning the response made by manufacturers to proposals made by the Consumer Advisory Council of the British Standards Institution on standards of quality.
    Sir D. Eccles: I understand that discussions are proceeding, and I hope that they will have a successful outcome.
    Miss Burton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his Answers get better and better? May we hope that a successful outcome will be reached by the time he has again got near the top of the table for answering Questions?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir.

    British Standards Institution (Grant)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the anticipated additional grant of£10,000 to the

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    British Standards Institution in the financial year 1957–58 is to balance additional income from industry and the sale of publications or for any other reason; and if he will continue, apart from the general grant, the present additional sum of£10,000 given for the publication of Shoppers' Guide and the work of the Consumer Advisory Council.
    Sir D. Eccles: The increase of£10,000 in the general grant is to match additional contributions from industry. Subject to Parliamentary approval, the special grant of£10,000 towards the Institution's work for the domestic consumer will be repeated in 1958–59.
    Miss Burton: While I am very glad that the extra grant is to be continued, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it will be continued irrespective or not of a possible merger between the Consumer Advisory Council and the Consumer Research Association?
    Sir D. Eccles: As I told the hon. Lady last week, we must see whether the merger comes off before I can decide the financial implications.
    Mr. Page: Will my right hon. Friend say whether this Shoppers' Guide is really a guide to any shoppers; whether shoppers read it, and who does read it? Why should the taxpayer be asked to contribute£10,000 to the publication of the view of some particular editress?
    Sir D. Eccles: I understand it is very widely appreciated.

    Packaged Soap Powders and Cleaners
    Mrs. Slaterasked the President of the Board of Trade if, in view of the call to keep prices down, he is aware of the wastage of material and thus high cost of packaged soap powders and cleaners in the growing trend of marketing larger packets which are not filled to capacity; and if he will bear this factor in mind when considering legislation at a future date.
    Sir D. Eccles: I will bear the hon. Lady's arguments in mind in connection with a new Weights and Measures Bill.
    Mrs. Slater: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for at least some hint that there might be legislation in the future, may I ask whether he is aware
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    that there is very large and growing concern that, while we are asking for prices to come down and trying to stabilise the economy, firms should continue to produce large packets with less material in them, thus taking greater freightage on the lorries and railways and adding to prices rather than keeping them stable?
    Sir D. Eccles: I have had a look at this matter and I understand that the hon. Lady is about to receive an invitation from soap makers to visit them.

    Credit Restriction
    Mrs. McLaughlinasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that nearly 40 per cent. of British export trade is done by small firms and that these firms are finding it increasingly difficult to maintain this level due to credit restrictions in the home market; and what steps he proposes to take to ease this situation.
    Sir D. Eccles: I do not know the basis for my hon. Friend's figure of 40 per cent., but certainly a good deal of export trade is done by small firms. Credit restriction reduces home demand and frees goods for export; on balance, I consider this effect outweighs the real difficulties caused by the squeeze to which my hon. Friend refers.
    Mrs. McLaughlin: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that many of the small firms find that, due to home restrictions and the difficulties of trying out their goods on the home market, it is very difficult for them to export? Is he aware that the attitude of the Government in failing to help individual firms which are small in capacity, numbers and capital—these are the people who are most hit—leads them to feel that the Government do not understand their problems?
    Sir D. Eccles: I agree with my hon. Friend that small firms do a very great part of the export business. If they are in difficulties about getting capital, the hon. Lady should put down a Question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    Cotton Goods (Import)
    Mrs. McLaughlinasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of growing apprehension in the textile trade about the free importation of cotton

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    and other goods from areas where the wage levels are much lower than in the United Kingdom; and if he will take steps to regulate these imports.
    Sir D. Eccles: I assume that my hon. Friend is referring mainly to duty-free imports of cotton goods from Commonwealth countries. As the Government have frequently stated, it would be a major departure from our traditional Commonwealth trade policy to restrict these imports by imposing quotas.
    Mrs. McLaughlin: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a very large and growing problem? The 400 million square yards of material imported last year represents a commercial attack upon the industries of this country in the textile trade. Some means must be found of matching them with our own output, because many of these concerns, in Japan, India, Hong Kong, China and other places, are competing unfairly because of the vast difference in wage levels.
    Sir D. Eccles: Imports from Japan and China are restricted by quota. It is only imports from the Commonwealth which come in duty-free and without restriction. My hon. Friend will realise that, with a Commonwealth Conference coming, this is not a very good moment to bring this subject to a decision.

    Watches (Import Licences)
    Mr. Liptonasked the President of the Board of Trade why licences to import watches are still restricted to persons who were importers in 1939.
    Sir D. Eccles: Imports of watches are severely restricted, and the admission of newcomers would reduce still further the trade open to already established importers.
    Mr. Lipton: Is it not time that this rather moth-eaten, twenty-year-old control was re-examined or revised? Will not the President of the Board of Trade allow at least one or two more to join this exclusive club, and in particular an ex-R.A.F. British refugee from Egypt, where he lost all his assets, who is now one of my constituents, who was formerly In the watch trade there, and who now wants to earn his living in the same line of business in this country?
    Sir D. Eccles: I agree that the present system is unsatisfactory, but no one has been able to suggest a better. If I did what the hon. Gentleman wants, I should have to discriminate among a great many applications for becoming watch importers.

    Industrial Development, Northern Ireland
    Mrs. McLaughlinasked the President of the Board of Trade, having regard to the persistently high unemployment in Northern Ireland, what steps he will take to interest expanding firms in Northern Ireland.
    Sir D. Eccles: Responsibility for promoting industrial development in Northern Ireland rests with the Northern Ireland Government but my Department is doing everything it can, and will continue to do so, both at headquarters and in the regions, to help the Ministry of Commerce find suitable new projects. We bring the facilities in Northern Ireland including the plentiful supply of good labour, to the notice of all industrialists, wishing to move or expand, whose needs appear likely to be met by going there.
    Mrs. McLaughlin: May I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer, which will no doubt bring satisfaction to many people in Northern Ireland who have been under the impression that Her Majesty's Government do not have Northern Ireland as a matter of prime concern for their consideration? May I assure him that anything he does will be very much appreciated?

    Harris Tweed
    Commander Donaldsonasked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent his Department was associated, by special charter or otherwise, in the creation of the Harris Tweed Association Limited.
    Sir D. Eccles: No such association can be traced.
    Commander Donaldson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Harris Tweed Association Limited has recently widely published in the United States statements to the effect that it was created by special charter of the Board of Trade? Does not he agree that such misrepresentations

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    greatly prejudice other Harris tweed manufacturers, who produce 1,750,000 yards of material a year? Is not it unfair that there should be prejudice when a company is not associated with the orb trade mark?
    Sir D. Eccles: The Harris Tweed Association was registered in 1909, but it has never had a special Board of Trade charter and, therefore, the advertisement to which my hon. and gallant Friend has referred is incorrect.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that advertisement in the American papers was inserted not by the Harris Tweed Association, but by an American attorney, without the consent or instructions of the Harris Tweed Association, which therefore cannot be liable to that criticism?
    Sir D. Eccles: My hon. and gallant Friend will be very glad to have that information.
    Commander Donaldsonasked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent, in agreeing to the registration of the certification mark of the Harris Tweed Association, he has officially authorised any particular definition of Harris tweed as the only description of that material which can be permitted in this country.
    Sir D. Eccles: The Board's approval of the regulations governing the use of the certification trade mark registered by the Harris Tweed Association does not signify that the definition of Harris tweed in those regulations is the only definition of Harris tweed for all purposes. That definition is only relevant to the use of the mark.
    Commander Donaldson: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that Answer, and in connection with the supplementary question just put by the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan), may I ask my right hon. Friend whether or not he has seen copies of the advertisement to which I have referred? If I send copies to him, will he consider the matter in the light of that advertisement, keeping in mind his responsibility and duty to increase British trade, both at home and overseas, and not to retard it?
    Sir D. Eccles: I have the advertisement here, and I think that this exchange will make public what is the truth.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the President of the Board of Trade what assistance or encouragement is given by his Department to the Harris Tweed Association in promoting sales of Harris tweed, stamped with the orb certification mark, in the dollar area; and if he will estimate the quantity and the value of the dollar area exports of this cloth in each of the past two years.
    Sir D. Eccles: The help which the Board of Trade can give in a variety of ways in promoting exports to the dollar area is freely available to members of the Harris Tweed Association. Exports of cloth stamped with the orb certification mark are not recorded separately in the Trade Returns, but the Harris Tweed Association has estimated that exports of such cloth by manufacturers to the dollar area amounted to 1·55 million yards, valued at£1,038,000, in 1956, and to 1·1 million yards valued at£700,000, in the first half of 1957. No estimate is yet available for the whole of 1957.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that this industry, which is the only manufacturing industry in the Western Isles and one on which thousands of people depend for their livelihood, has built itself up independently, with very little help indeed from the Board of Trade or anyone else, and would not he wish to encourage it in every way, in order to sustain local employment against the danger of competition from pirating firms producing imitations, the Harris Tweed Association having paid for all the advertising of this cloth?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, and we are doing our best to help the industry by asking the Americans not to increase the tariff.
    Commander Donaldson: While not disagreeing with what has been said about the dollar-earning capacity of the Harris Tweed Association, may I ask what assistance is given to those who produce Harris tweed of equal quality, but who, because they are not members of the Harris Tweed Association Limited, have their goods proscribed from entry into the United States?
    Sir D. Eccles: The Board of Trade's services are open to any maker of Harris tweed, whether from the Islands or not.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the President of the Board of Trade what consideration was given to the definition of Harris tweed in the regulations attaching to the Harris Tweed Association's Orb certification mark before it was sanctioned by his Department in 1934; whether he is satisfied that there is adequate protection of the Orb mark against its illegal use by persons producing and selling imitations of the cloth in areas outwith the Outer Hebrides in this country and abroad; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir D. Eccles: The amended definition of 1934 was fully discussed between representatives of the Board and the interested parties. I am satisfied that there is adequate protection against any illegal use of the Orb mark. If the hon. Member has any evidence to the contrary, he should bring it to the notice of either my Department or the Harris Tweed Association Limited.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: While I am reassured by the right hon. Gentleman's reply about protection, may I ask if he does not think that, at the same time, it is highly important that the Board of Trade—which, after all, sanctioned the definition in the regulations attaching to the Orb mark of the Harris Tweed Association—now that there are obvious signs of pirating and competition by imitations from everywhere from Galashiels to Japan, should give every assistance to protect this very important industry and this cloth which is so valuable to the Western Isles?
    Sir D. Eccles: The description "Harris tweed" is very like that of Bath buns. It covers the manufacture of articles not all made in the place to which the name refers.

    U.S.S.R. and China
    Mr. Lewisasked the President of the Board of Trade what positive action his Department has taken, since the visit of Mr. Bulganin and Mr. Krushchev to this country, to extend trade between Great Britain and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics among the goods and items which these two statesmen suggested should be imported and exported and with what success.
    Sir D. Eccles: We gave full publicity to the purchasing programme which the Soviet leaders proposed to us and we welcomed the Soviet mission, which came here soon afterwards. In the result some valuable orders have been secured and others are in course of negotiation. Much more trade could be done under the Soviet programme if the Soviet authorities were as interested to buy as our manufacturers are to sell.
    Mr. Lewis: From the last part of that reply, does not it appear as though the President of the Board of Trade is not so anxious to do trade as to make jibes? Can he say something about what he proposes to do to get the Soviets to be more helpful, if they are not helpful at the moment? Is it not better to have trade than trouble with the Russians? Cannot he do something more positive?
    Sir D. Eccles: I agree with the hon. Member and I continually bring to the notice of the Soviet trade authorities here that there are many things on their list which they could buy.
    Mr. Fernyhoughasked the President of the Board of Trade when petrol and aviation spirit are to be taken off the embargo list in relation to exports to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
    Sir D. Eccles: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given by my hon. Friend the Minister of State to my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) on 12th February, when he said that the controls would be reviewed in consultation with our partners in the Paris Group. That Answer applies to the whole range of our exports covered by the strategic controls, in which petrol and aviation spirit are included.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what has been the outcome of the meeting of the fifteen nations that has been taking place in Paris? Would not he agree that in the age of the Sputnik and the inter-continental missile, embargo lists are fantastic?
    Sir D. Eccles: There has not yet been any outcome; the discussions are still going on. Opinions about the value of the embargo list differ between the various members of Cocom.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade what further steps he is considering for the promotion of trade between the United Kingdom, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and China.
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps are being taken to increase trade with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
    Sir D. Eccles: The normal facilities provided by my Department are available for businessmen interested to develop trade with the Soviet Union and China. Apart from strategic goods this trade depends on the willingness of the Soviet and Chinese authorities to buy from us.
    Mr. Swingler: Do not the frustrating occurrences in this field and the general lack of development in expanding trade show the need to try to conclude trade agreements? Why is the President reluctant to try to negotiate, at official levels, trade agreements with those countries, to assist negotiations between purchasers and vendors?
    Sir D. Eccles: There are two reasons. The first is that the other parties show no inclination to have trade agreements. Secondly, the things that we buy from them are already on the free list and, therefore, we have very little to put into a trade agreement of that kind.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what specific advice his Department is giving to manufacturers about exporting to the U.S.S.R.?
    Sir D. Eccles: We encourage them very much to sell all they can of the goods that are on the free list.
    Mr. Jay: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, in fact, trade is expanding both ways at present with Russia and with China?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, it is.

    Spain (Talks)
    Mr. G. Jegerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the trade talks with Spain have now been concluded; and what agreement has been reached.
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir. The talks were concluded on 19th February. Both sides envisaged an increase in trade in
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    both directions in 1958. Increased facilities have been secured for many United Kingdom goods which are subject to quotas in Spain.
    Mr. Jeger: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether there will be an improvement in the arrangement for this year compared with last year when about 50 per cent. more was purchased from Spain than Spain purchased from Britain? Can he say whether during these talks any mention was made of Spain lifting the discriminatory measures against Gibraltar?
    Sir D. Eccles: I hope that more trade will flow. It should do so, because this is a better arrangement. Certainly the Gibraltar trade was mentioned during the talks.

    Royal Ordnance Factory, Swynnerton
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now make a statement about the disposal of the Royal Ordnance factory, Swynnerton, and the measures being taken to bring new industry to North Staffordshire.
    Sir D. Eccles: No use has yet been found for the factory and site at Swynnerton. The facilities for establishing new industry in North Staffordshire continue to be brought to the notice of industrialists.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that while, comparatively speaking, a good job has been done for the redundant workers in Swynnerton, there is still a hard core unemployment problem in North Staffordshire and that it is very important that this site, or some site nearby, should be utilised for bringing new industry into the area which has had higher than national average unemployment for a considerable time?
    Sir D. Eccles: I will continue my efforts, but it is rather difficult to dispose of a filling factory.

    Products (Seals of Quality)
    Miss Burtonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that some manufacturers, having been awarded a seal of quality on one product out of several, have so worded their

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    advertisements that it seems as if the seal applies to the whole range; and if he will set up a committee to inquire into this practice.
    Sir D. Eccles: I have seen only one allegation of this deplorable practice. This is not sufficient to justify a committee of inquiry.
    Miss Burton: While I am glad that the President of the Board of Trade has found at least one deplorable instance, may I ask him whether he thinks that, on the whole matter of certification, it would be a good idea if all bodies concerned had to establish their independence and authority, publish the criteria used, and reinforce their certificates with adequate inspection?
    Sir D. Eccles: I should have to consider that. It is rather a large topic.

    Film Production
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is satisfied that the current level of British film production is sufficient to maintain the quotas and provide for an expanding volume of exports; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir. In spite of difficulties caused by the fall in cinema attendances, the level of British film production is being maintained. This level should be sufficient to fill the screen quotas, and to provide for some increase in exports.
    Mr. Swingler: How does the President of the Board of Trade reconcile that Answer with recent announcements of cuts in production by major production companies? Is not he aware that the falling receipts of the levy funds will jeopardise any expansion of production in the future, and should not he now conceive some new policy to stimulate production?
    Sir D. Eccles: The hon. Member asked about the current level, and the current level is the same as last year's. The second part of his supplementary question referred to future policy. I think that that is another question.

    Dollar Imports
    Mr. Liptonasked the President of the Board of Trade what action he is taking to reduce unnecessary dollar imports.
    Sir D. Eccles: It is not proposed to intensify the existing restrictions on the import of dollar goods.
    Mr. Lipton: Has the President of the Board of Trade taken note of the fact that yesterday the£dropped as a result of the selling of sterling for dollars? Is it not a fact that, despite the high Bank Rate and the other steps taken by the Government, they are failing to stem the dollar drain; and that, unless we do something about it, the Government will find themselves defaulting on the dollar loan for the third time, simply because the dollars are not there?
    Sir D. Eccles: The Government's financial measures have already strengthened the£, and I do not think that action against the United States at this time would be effective in improving our foreign exchange position.
    Mr. Nabarro: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that, notwithstanding the American recession, British exports to the United States are still running at a very high level; and is it not a fact that action taken here to restrict American imports into this country would lead at once to a decline in our sales to North America?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, but, of course, we want the Americans also to help us to sell to them.

    Nigeria (Minister's Visit)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will specify the purpose of the forthcoming official visit to Nigeria of the Minister of State, Board of Trade; which parts of Nigeria he will visit; and what are the particular aspects of trade, industry and commerce into which he will inquire; and when he will report to this House the results of his visit.
    Sir D. Eccles: As the hon. and learned Member was informed in reply to his Question on 30th January, the Minister of State is going to visit Nigeria to see for himself what further steps could be taken to expand our trade there. He will visit Lagos, the regional capitals, and important commercial and industrial centres throughout the country.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that many of the

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    problems that should have been solved by the United Kingdom Government while Nigeria was still a Colony have been left over, and that that will place undue burdens on Nigeria when it achieves self-government in 1960? Will he instruct his Minister of State to address his mind to those problems, with a view to solving them before self-government is achieved?
    Sir D. Eccles: My hon. Friend is going there to look into Anglo-Nigerian trade, and I have no doubt that his visit will be very useful.

    Motor Car Dealers (Levy)
    Mr. Jayasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will investigate the practice of motor-car manufacturers, through the Car Distribution Committee of the British Motor Traders Association, in collectively imposing a compulsory levy on dealers, in order to pay costs of actions under Section 25 of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956; if he is aware that dealers who do not pay are refused registration by manufacturers, and thereby denied supplies of cars and spare parts; and what action he proposes to take under Section 24 of the Act to prevent these collective practices.
    Sir D. Eccles: The distribution scheme agreement has been registered, and its provisions will in due course be examined by the Restrictive Practices Court. Collective financing of legal actions is not unlawful under Section 24 of the 1956 Act.
    Mr. Jay: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in my constituency a dealer is being forced, against his will and on pain of losing his business, to contribute to this collective fund, which is then to be used to pay for actions in the courts under the Act to stop other dealers reducing their prices; and is not this really a flagrant defiance of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act?
    Sir D. Eccles: I was not aware of that case. If the right hon. Gentleman will give me the details, I will look into the matter.
    Mr. Jay: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that dealers in this industry are unwilling to give their Members of Parliament their names for fear of losing their business? If he wants evidence,
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    will he study the article in the Economist this week, which confirms all the facts given to me by my constituent?
    Sir D. Eccles: I have read the article, but it did not suggest that anything illegal was being done in the industry.

    Migrants (Short Sea Routes)
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the President of the Board of Trade why there are no records kept of the growing migration of British subjects over the short sea routes; and whether he will give approximately the number of these people coming from Ireland, and the number going back.
    Sir D. Eccles: As the migration of British subjects represents only a very small proportion of the exceptionally heavy passenger traffic on the short sea routes, it is very difficult to collect full information on migrants without adding considerably to frontier formalities; but discussions are being held with other Departments to consider what information could be collected.
    I understand that 68,500 persons arriving from the Irish Republic applied for National Insurance cards in 1957; information is not available about those returning.
    Mr. Johnson: Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that while this process continues and these migrations go on, any population statistics are inaccurate, and will he begin to do here what he told me he would do about the air migration statistics; that is to say, have an accurate record kept?
    Sir D. Eccles: There is a review in progress, and I hope that it will not be too long before we have a result.

    Domestic Devices (Repairs)
    Mr. Jannerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider, with the appropriate trade associations, the advisability of issuing publications to inform the public about the mechanism of domestic devices in common use so as to enable them to detect the more usual causes of breakdown and estimate the approximate cost of repair.
    Sir D. Eccles: Many manufacturers issue explanatory leaflets and, clearly, this is a desirable practice.
    Mr. Janner: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that enormous and progressively increasing charges are being made for repairs to domestic instruments in cases where people have not the slightest idea of what the charge ought to be? Has he any evidence at all to indicate that some steps are being taken, either by his Department or anyone else, to ensure that the public is not fleeced?
    Sir D. Eccles: My Department is really not equipped to investigate repair charges. I think that the public must look after itself in this respect.

    Birmingham Small Arms Factory, Cardiff
    Mr. Callaghanasked the President of the Board of Trade what assistance has been offered by his Department to facilitate the taking over of the Birmingham Small Arms Company Limited tools factory at Cardiff by another industrial undertaking.
    Sir D. Eccles: My Department is in touch with the company and will do its best to help to find another occupier for the factory.
    Mr. Callaghan: I am much obliged to the President of the Board of Trade, but I do not think that the working people who are about to become unemployed will be satisfied with a general assurance. Can he say whether there are any specific firms with whom he is bringing this factory into contact so that the skilled workers there need not be lost to the enterprise?
    Sir D. Eccles: I quite appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says about the skilled workmen. The announcement was made only on 21st February, and we have not had much time.
    Mr. Callaghan: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the factory is due to close at the end of March, so that not much time has been given to anybody? May I ask him again whether there are any specific firms—has he any hope—with whom he can put this factory in touch?
    Sir D. Eccles: If I have any such information, I will write to the hon. Gentleman; but he must remember that in South-West Wales the need is even greater.
    Mr. Callaghan: Is not the President of the Board of Trade aware that Cardiff is not in South-West Wales? It is the capital of the Principality and it is in South-East Wales.
    Sir D. Eccles: I thought that the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), a representative from Cardiff, would know something about the troubles in the rest of the Principality.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Purchase Tax
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the exemption from Purchase Tax of certain articles which can be fitted into stoves and ranges to restrict their fuel content and consumption only extends to cast iron grids used for that purpose if it can be shown that they effect a substantial reduction in fuel capacity; what precise tests are applied in this connection; and what is the present approximate annual revenue with respect to Purchase Tax on cast iron grids used for restricting the fuel capacity of stoves but which do not effect any substantial reduction in such capacity.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. E. S. Simon): The answer to the first part of the Question is, "Yes, Sir." The test applied is that of common sense. As regards revenue, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply of my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) on 17th December.
    Mr. Nabarro: Should not Purchase Tax be removed altogether from all domestic fuel efficiency appliances? Is it not a fact that successive Ministers of Fuel and Power have advocated the use of these appliances, and is not Treasury policy directly inimical to the national interest in saving fuel?
    Mr. Simon: The answer to the last part of the supplementary question is "No, Sir". As to the rest, my right hon. Friend is reviewing the Surtax Schedules, as my hon. Friend knows.
    Mr. Nabarro: On a point of order. There is nothing about Surtax in this Question. It is Purchase Tax.
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware

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    that the exemption of hat pins from the charge of Purchase Tax under haberdashery does not extend to articles with blunt ends or articles having a head at both ends of the pin, and that in the case of hat pins with a single small head of glass the exemption is not given if the head is larger than half an inch in any dimension; whether he will simplify the arrangements with regard to the charging of Purchase Tax on hat pins; and what is the approximate revenue received from Purchase Tax on hat pins.
    Mr. Simon: The statutory exemption is for "pins of base metal". I see no ground for extending it to articles other than those essentially of base metal, still less to articles which are not pins at all. I have no evidence to show that the exemption gives rise to any difficulties, but if my hon. Friend should furnish any such evidence, I will, of course, be glad to examine it. On the last part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) gave him on 17th December.
    Mr. Nabarro: This is a pretty sharp point, Mr. Speaker—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—but will my hon. and learned Friend have regard to the fact that what he is doing by fiscal means is seeking to discriminate and influence the course of ladies' fashions in haberdashery and millinery, which is surely not part of the purpose and policy of a Chancellor of the Exchequer? Ought not all these articles to be free of Purchase Tax?
    Mr. Simon: Heaven forbid that my right hon. Friend or I should attempt to Influence the course of ladies' fashions.
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why safety helmets of the type used by miners and quarrymen are free of Purchase Tax, whereas safety helmets used by firemen and motorcyclists, all on Government advice, are subject to Purchase Tax; what criteria guide such discriminatory treatment of helmets designed to prevent injury and save life; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy these distinctions.
    Mr. Simon: The exemption for miners' and quarrymen's helmets was granted exceptionally when the tax was first introduced in 1940. Experience has shown
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    that exemptions of this sort lead to unjustifiable discrimination and anomalies, and successive Governments have decided not to extend them.
    Mr. Nabarro: Would my hon. Friend consider exceptionally the case of firemen's helmets? Surely it is as essential to save firemen's lives by protective helmets as it is to save a miner's life or a quarryman's life? As 90 per cent. or more of firemen's helmets are paid for out of public funds, how can a circular transaction of this kind be considered efficient?
    Mr. Simon: My Answer stands, in answer to my hon. Friend's supplementary question, but my right hon. Friend is reviewing the Schedules, as my hon. Friend knows, and I will draw his attention to the point.

    Petrol and Oil (Duty)
    Mr. Doddsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in order to give a lead in a special effort to reduce the cost of living, if he will take action to make a significant reduction in the duty on petrol and oil.
    Mr. Simon: I cannot anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.
    Mr. Dodds: That is the Answer one could expect, but will the hon. and learned Gentleman state whether the Government will try, sooner or later, to reduce the cost of living? Will not he agree, there being a tax of 2s. 6d. a gallon on petrol, that one of the biggest items in reducing the cost of living would be, let us say, 6d. taken off the tax? Are they considering it?
    Mr. Simon: It is, of course, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, part of the Government's policy to reduce the standard of living—
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear. Resign.
    Mr. Simon: I apologise to the House. That is the second time today. I meant to say "reduce the cost of living". I cannot anticipate the Budget statement.
    Mr. Jay: Is not this the first truthful answer we have had from the Government Benches for many weeks?
    Mr. Peyton: Is it not a rather strange and notable thing that the greatest

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    triumph the Opposition have had for some time was caused by a mere slip of the tongue?

    Reception of Passengers, Dover
    Mr. Doddsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take steps to ensure that greater efficiency and understanding are shown at Dover in the reception and clearance of United Kingdom citizens returning from holidays abroad, particularly during the peak periods.
    Mr. Simon: The Dover Harbour Board, British Railways, the Home Office and the Customs all work together closely in the reception and clearance of passengers at Dover. While concentration of arrivals at peak periods very occasionally causes some unavoidable delay, the existing Customs arrangements seem to give general satisfaction; but my right hon. Friend will arrange for them to be reviewed in the light of any evidence to the contrary which the hon. Member provides to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade as the result of his reply to the hon. Member's Question last Thursday.
    Mr. Dodds: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that I need not waste time in giving that evidence, for it is already with his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade? Will he converse with the President of the Board of Trade and attempt, with the various interests, to get some greater efficiency at the ports than we had last year, not only for our own people but for visitors coming from abroad? Will he attempt also to get the Belgian marine authorities to co-operate in achieving greater efficiency?
    Mr. Simon: Yes, Sir. I will certainly examine the evidence which the hon. Gentleman seems now to have furnished to my right hon. Friend. Arrangements have already been made with the Belgian marine authorities to bring about the effect the hon. Gentleman wishes to see.

    Public Servants (Car Allowances)
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallettasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the constitution of the Official Side of the Whitley Council at present considering mileage allowance for public servants who use their private cars on duty.
    Mr. Simon: Treasury officials, who represent the Official Side of the National Whitley Council.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: May I ask my hon. and learned Friend whether he does not recognise that there is a matter of principle involved in this case? Has it not been the rule hitherto that no one should sit on the Official Side of the Whitley Council if his own emoluments are under negotiation? How can this be done in this case? Is my hon. and learned Friend happy that this is an entirely suitable matter for Whitley Council procedure?
    Mr. Simon: Yes. This matter is traditionally handled by Whitley Council procedure, and Treasury officials represent the public purse in such proceedings.

    Messrs. Richard Thomas and Baldwins
    Mr. Croninasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is now the policy of Her Majesty's Government that Richard Thomas and Baldwins should remain in public ownership.
    The Paymaster-General (Mr. Reginald Maudling): The policy of Her Majesty's Government remains in accord with the decisions of Parliament embodied in the Iron and Steel Act, 1953. That Act set up the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency with the duty:
    "to secure, by the exercise of their powers under this Act, the return to private ownership of the undertakings which, on the appointed day, are owned by subsidiaries of the Agency."
    Mr. Cronin: Having regard to the circumstance that the demise of the Government is imminent and, after that event, that the rest of the steel industry is to be renationalised, would it not be desirable for the right hon. Gentleman to give this steel-producing organisation a reassurance that it will not be subject to unnecessary and destructive disturbance in the meantime?
    Mr. Maudling: I think that the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is based on a false hypothesis. The duties of the Agency remain as determined by Act of Parliament.

    Post-war Credits
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give instructions that interest shall not be

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    charged on taxation payments which are overdue in cases where the person concerned has post-war credits outstanding.
    Mr. Simon: No, Sir.
    Mr. Johnson: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that there is something very unfair about a system under which the Treasury insists on its pound of flesh regarding its own money, but makes no attempt to repay its own debts?
    Mr. Simon: No. There is no connection between tax and interest, which are immediately payable, and post-war credits which are payable at a date which may be many years in the future. The proposal would be tantamount to giving special preference to those credit holders who owe large sums of current tax.
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount of post-war credits repaid in 1957.
    Mr. Simon: The total amount was£17·5 million.
    Mr. Johnson: May I ask my hon. and learned Friend if there is any hope of accelerating the rate of repayment, especially to those suffering hardship through being owed this money?
    Mr. Simon: My hon. Friend will not be surprised to hear me reply that I cannot anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.

    Middle-Aged Single Women
    Sir W. Wakefieldasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the financial difficulties facing middle-aged single women who are entirely dependent on their own earnings; and what consideration he is giving to alleviating these difficulties.
    Mr. Maudling: If my hon. Friend has in mind any reduction of taxation I can of course do no more than reply in the classic phrase that I cannot anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.

    Initial Allowances (Motor Cars)
    Mt. Vaneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the approximate total amount of the initial allowances claimed annually on motor cars used for all such business purposes as entitle the owner to claim this relief.
    Mr. Simon: About£30 million.
    Mr. Vane: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that this relief gives very little encouragement to industry and very substantial encouragement to demand inflation—something which might very well be reduced?
    Mr. Simon: Again, I must reply that I cannot anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.

    Inflation
    Sir W. Anstruther-Grayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress he has to report in the battle against inflation.
    Mr. Maudling: The indicators show that we are continuing to gain ground.
    Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: May we take it from my right hon. Friend's reply that this is only a prelude to much better things to come?
    Mr. Maudling: There is certainly a lot more ground still to be gained.

    Foreign Short-Term Funds
    Mr. Beswickasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what action he proposes to prevent the build-up of undesirable amounts of hot money, sent to this country by foreign speculators for the sole purpose of earning the present abnormal interest yield.
    Mr. Maudling: I see no reason to think that there is any strong movement of short-term funds into this country solely to take advantage of interest rate differentials.
    Mr. Beswick: Can the Paymaster-General say on what evidence he bases that remark? Is it not clear that the longer we have this exceptionally high interest reward to the foreign owners of money transferred here, the bigger problem we shall have when the interest rate is eventually lowered?
    Mr. Maudling: The best expert advice that I can obtain is that the movement of money represents the flow-back into London of normal commercial deposits here. In any case, one of the reasons for raising the rate of interest is to attract deposits.

    Council on Prices, Productivity and Incomes
    Mr. Jayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the cost to public funds of the Council on Prices, Productivity and Incomes since its establishment.
    Mr. Gordon Walkerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the approximate cost incurred in the preparation and production of the First Report of the Council on Prices, Productivity and Incomes.
    Mr. Simon: The cost to public funds of producing the First Report of the Council on Prices, Productivity and Incomes has been approximately£3,560. Of this£2,330 represents salaries and office expenses up to 31st January, 1958, and£1,230 the cost of printing and publishing the Report.
    Mr. Jay: Is it not a fraud on the taxpayer that the partisan opinions of these three individuals should be propagated at the public expense; and, in the interests of economy, will not the Government abolish this ridiculous organisation?
    Mr. Simon: The Question related to the cost of producing the Report. The Council was established so that all concerned should have the benefit of continuous study, by an independent body of high standing, of the important public problems which are within the Council's terms of reference. That being so, the Government themselves are closely studying the views expressed. I hope that all others interested or concerned in these problems will do likewise.
    Mr. Jay: As this Council has called for more unemployment—[HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."]—and as the Chancellor who set them up is now unemployed himself, would it not be the happiest solution if these three individuals also joined the ranks of the unemployed?
    Mr. Simon: That supplementary question illustrates the importance of the advice that I ventured to give, that all concerned would do well to read the Report.
    Mr. P. Williams: Would not my hon. Friend agree that the money spent on this Report is of incomparably greater value than the£10,000 referred to in Question No. 3, which has been spent on "Shoppers' Guide"?

    University Building Projects, Wales
    Mr. Gowerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much of the£15 million to be spent on university building projects in accordance with authority given by him, will be spent on such projects in Wales; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Simon: Following my right hon. Friend's statement of 20th February, the University Grants Committee will be discussing with all the universities their proposals for new buildings to be started in the years 1960–63, but it will be some time before the Committee is in a position to draw up provisional programmes.
    Mr. Gower: Will my hon. and learned Friend give an assurance that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Welsh Affairs will be taken into consultation at all stages on this matter?
    Mr. Simon: No, Sir. This is a matter for the University Grants Committee. I am certain that the Committee can be relied upon to allocate these resources with due regard both to national needs and the requirements of individual universities.

    Licences (Post Office Charges)
    Mr. Denzil Freethasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will introduce amending legislation so that the Post Office charges on all communications regarding the issue of licences by local authorities, acting as agents of the Government, are prepaid by the Treasury.
    Mr. Simon: I am looking into the matter and will communicate with my hon. Friend.

    British Forces, Germany (Support Costs)
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is now able to state what arrangements have been made with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation for payment by the Federal German Government of the support costs of the British forces in Germany.
    Mr. Maudling: This matter is still under consideration by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and I have as yet nothing to add to my reply on 20th February.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is the report in today's Press correct in stating that the Germans have made an offer of£45 million? If so, what conditions have been attached to it?
    Mr. Maudling: As the hon. Member will realise, these discussions are very important. While they are going on, it would be unwise of me to make any more detailed statement than I have done.

    Bank of England (Governor's Speech)
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the public speech of the Governor of the Bank of England on 18th February, in which he championed the practice of appointing part-time Bank directors from private industry and finance; and whether he will now issue a direction to the Bank under Section 4 (1) of the Bank of England Act, 1946, that the governors and directors should refrain from making public controversial statements about Bank matters which have been referred for full inquiry to an impartial committee, while such inquiry is actually proceeding.
    Mr. Maudling: The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes"; and to the second part, "No".
    Mr. Chapman: When this matter is sub judice—when, in fact, this House has asked a Committee to look into the future of the Board of the Bank of England—is it not injudicious, to say the least, for the Governor to make this sort of partisan speech in public? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Let me say. If the chairman of a nationalised industry had tried to give his views on a matter of dispute when his board was under consideration by a Committee appointed by this House, would there not have been a chorus of disapproval from the House of Commons? Would it not be better for the Governor to try to restrain himself and give evidence to the Committee instead of making a public statement?
    Mr. Maudling: The matter is in no sense sub judice. It is being considered by a Committee. If every issue that was being considered by a committee were considered to be sub judice, public controversy would be very much diminished.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Did not the Government make a special point of the fact that this matter was to be referred specifically to a Committee appointed by the House of Commons, and not to just any Committee, as an important matter of policy? When something like that happens, is it not wrong that the head of the Board concerned should make speeches in public about that very matter?
    Mr. Maudling: No, Sir. I see nothing wrong in it whatever.

    ZERO ENERGY THERMO- NUCLEAR ASSEMBLY
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
    Mr. ELLIS SMITH: To ask the Prime Minister if he will arrange for a model of Zero Energy Thermo-nuclear Assembly, and similar models of the latest developments in thermo-nuclear and nuclear energy, which are to be exhibited at Brussels, to be included in the Belle Vue, Manchester, Trade Exhibition; and whether he will ask for the co-operation of those engaged at Trafford Park and Aldermaston, so that a clear explanation can be made to the visitors and broadcasts made to the world.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Ellis Smith.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: On a point of order. In view of the importance of the subject matter raised in Question No. 45 and due to the unfortunate fact—which I am sure you, Mr. Speaker, and the House will regret—that my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) is in hospital, will you be good enough to allow me to invite the Prime Minister to indicate at this stage whether he proposes to answer this Question at the end of Question Time?
    Mr. Speaker: I am afraid that I cannot influence that matter in any way.
    Mr. C. Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he will ensure that the necessary funds are made available to the Atomic Energy Authority to enable the most rapid possible progress to be made with the further development of Zeta.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): Yes, Sir, subject, of course, to normal considerations of good financial management.
    Mr. C. HughesWhile being grateful to the Prime Minister for that assurance, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the fact that there are no considerations of security in this sphere, he can say how much was spent on this great project last year, how much is to be spent this year and how much it is estimated will be spent next year?
    The Prime Minister: I would like notice of those details, but I am sure that the matter is not held back by any lack of expenditure. The problems are extremely difficult and complicated. What is remarkable is the progress and skill of those engaged upon this work.
    Mr. Mason: Could the Prime Minister say to what extent the Government have applied their mind to the further problem—that of providing the Harwell team with a further forty scientists and engineers to build Zeta II?
    The Prime Minister: The Atomic Energy Authority is responsible for the work, and I have no doubt that it will press on with it in every way it can. I do not propose to interfere with the Authority, in whom I have every confidence, and that confidence is more than justified by the progress they have made.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that in answering a similar Question to No. 45 a week or two ago—[Interruption.] I know what I am talking about. Is the Prime Minister aware that the Paymaster-General indicated, in reply to a Question similar to Question No. 45, that the main reason why Zeta should not be exhibited at Belle Vue in July this year was lack of funds? Will he, therefore, try to arrange with the Authority for the right—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We have passed that Question. I regret as much as the hon. Member the absence of his hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith), but I cannot allow a supplementary question to be asked concerning a Question we have passed.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: With respect, Mr. Speaker, Question No. 46 deals with funds in connection with Zeta. My point is that in replying to a Question similar to Question No. 45—which I am not
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    dealing with—it was the matter of funds that prevented the Authority from conforming to the request of the Belle Vue authorities to have this exhibit in July. I am simply asking why, if there is a lack of funds, the Prime Minister cannot authorise more funds.
    Mr. Speaker: I think they are separate Questions. The one we are now dealing with concerns funds for development. The hon. Member is now asking for funds for an exhibition.

    COMMONWEALTH TRADE
    Mr. Beswickasked the Prime Minister if he will consider the appointment of a Minister with special responsibility for the preparation of a plan for the expansion and integration of Commonwealth trade, and for the discussion and advocacy of this plan with our Commonwealth partners, in the same way as a Minister has been appointed to consider the problems of European trade.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The expansion of our trade, both in the Commonwealth and in Europe, is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.
    Mr. Beswick: While expressing appreciation of what the Prime Minister has recently done to improve understanding within the Commonwealth, may I ask whether he thinks that there is now a danger that we are taking Commonwealth trade too much for granted? Is there, not at least as good a case for putting as much effort into the integration of trade within the Commonwealth as is currently being done for European trade?
    The Prime Minister: I have every sympathy with that purpose. My right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General is responsible for the conduct of a special group of negotiations which are now taking place. With regard to Commonwealth trade, as the hon. Member knows we have the Commonwealth Economic Conference organised for the autumn. The meetings of the experts will take place quite soon and we hope that the preparatory work will be efficiently done so that there will be an effective conference in the autumn.
    Mr. Beswick: Does not the Prime Minister appreciate that there is a feeling

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    that no one Minister within the Government is giving sufficient thought, time and energy to the preparation of this economic conference? The impression is that we are not taking it sufficiently seriously. Will not the Prime Minister do something about it?
    The Prime Minister: Oh, yes, we are doing a great deal of work about the conference. Already there have been meetings of one group of officials. The higher group meets in April or May. The work will go on continuously throughout the summer and the full conference will take place in October. I asked my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General to undertake the work because a very large part of one's time is required to do it, but I am not persuaded that to alter the ordinary system of Government is wise in respect of more general matters.
    Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask two questions arising from that answer? Can the Prime Minister tell us whether the Paymaster-General will be associated with the preparations for the Commonwealth talks, so that there may be no danger of misunderstanding or confusion between these two sets of negotiations? Secondly, can the Prime Minister tell us when we are likely to have a statement on the progress of these talks? If it could be made, it might relieve a good deal of the anxiety.
    The Prime Minister: One of the reasons I asked my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General to act as an economic adviser to the Treasury is that he can then combine both sets of negotiations and in that sense he is available to the Treasury, which, of course, is deeply interested in the Commonwealth talks. With regard to the progress of what has been done by groups of officials of all the Commonwealth countries—
    Mr. Gaitskell: I was referring to Europe.
    The Prime Minister: That is another question. We are now on the Commonwealth. I should not like to make a statement on the progress of the work of officials of all these countries without consulting them. The European talks are another question and I will consult my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General as to when he thinks a further statement should be made.

    STANDARD OF LIVING
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister, in view of the fact that Her Majesty's Government are pledged to double the standard of life in twenty-five years, what legislation he proposes to introduce for raising the standard of life in Britain in 1958.
    The Prime Minister: Doubling the standard of living is not a matter for legislation; it is a question of hard work, and of exercising responsibility and restraint now for the sake of the future; and the progress in the last few years gives every ground for confidence that this objective is well within our power.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Prime Minister aware that this idea was returned to by the Lord Privy Seal in the manuscript amendment to the speech he did not deliver to the students at Glasgow? As the Prime Minister will be ninety in twenty-five years' time, does not he think that this process should be speeded up?
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend's observations, whether delivered or prepared in Glasgow, were, I understand, based on a study called "Britain and Europe" by The Economist Intelligence Unit.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Would not the Prime Minister agree that the doubling of the standard of living in twenty-five years is possible only on the basis of economic expansion? When will the Government resume an expansionist policy instead of the present restrictive policy?
    The Prime Minister: It is, of course, based upon a policy which acts prudently and patiently in certain circumstances and prevents the complete collapse of the system into absolute despair and destruction.

    NUCLEAR WEAPONS
    Mr. Proctorasked the Prime Minister (1) if, at the proposed conference of heads of State, he will seek a clear statement on the strength of the Russian and the Warsaw Powers in conventional weapons, the strength of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Powers in conventional weapons, and the period of time it would take the North

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    Atlantic Treaty Organisation Powers, using nuclear weapons, to demolish completely the Russian military power, destroy Russian productive industrial power and strike a mortal blow at the Russian people;
    (2) if, at the proposed conference of heads of State, he will seek a clear statement on the period of time it would take the Russians, using nuclear weapons and ballistic rockets, to destroy all Western Europe; what damage the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is capable of doing to the United States of America with the use of nuclear weapons; and what is the scientists' estimate of the survival of the human race, if the present stockpile of nuclear weapons is used in nuclear war.
    The Prime Minister: I should prefer not to go further than what I said in our debate last week: that is, that the general subject which seems to offer a chance of progress at any summit meeting is that of disarmament in its widest sense.
    Mr. Proctor: Would the Prime Minister agree that it is highly desirable that the people of the world should be well acquainted with the amount of conventional arms that the various great Powers have, so that we can judge the menace that arises from their possession? Furthermore, would he agree that while the nuclear weapons have so far preserved the liberties of the world, we have reached a stage where they are a menace to the very life of the world? Would the Prime Minister agree that if nuclear war should break out, Russia and all Europe would be completely devastated in three hours, which would mean that by twenty-seven minutes past six Leningrad, Moscow and London would be finished?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Member has asked me to agree to a number of propositions which I should like a little time to consider before committing myself in detail to them. What I would say would be to ask the hon. Member in return whether he agrees, as I understood he did, that the balance of power, with all its disadvantages, has at least preserved the peace and is likely to continue to do so.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Gower.
    Mr. Proctor: The Prime Minister asked me a question, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker: I think that both the hon. Member's question and the Prime Minister's question were rhetorical.

POLICE (USE OF DOGS)
The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. STONEHOUSE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for what reason police dogs were used to control crowds demonstrating in Whitehall after a protest meeting against nuclear weapons on 17th February; whether it is now the policy of the Metropolitan Police to use dogs in these circumstances; and who is responsible for giving the order that dogs should be so used.
Mr. EDELMAN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department in what circumstances he authorises the use of police dogs for the purpose of controlling crowds.
Mr. ROYLE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, by what authority police dogs were taken to Downing Street following the mass meeting in Westminster on Monday evening, 17th February, when representatives of the meeting sought to interview the Prime Minister.
Sir F. MEDLICOTT: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what are the regulations governing the use of police dogs in the Metropolitan area, with particular reference to the control of crowds.
Mr. FRANK ALLAUN: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) why police dogs were taken to a demonstration in Central London connected with the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament on Monday, 17th February;
(2) why police dogs are being sent to trade union and other meetings in the Metropolitan area.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): I will, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House,

545
answer Questions Nos. 99, 104, 106, 112, 114 and 115 together.
It has never been the policy of the Commissioner to use police dogs in dispersing demonstrators, and none was, in fact, used in dealing with the demonstrators in Downing Street on 17th February. When a call for reinforcements was sent out those who responded from one police division included two dog handlers with their dogs. They had not been ordered to attend and were at once directed into a doorway where they remained throughout the operation, the dogs being held strictly on their leads. I am informed that no police dogs have been sent to trade union or other meetings in the Metropolitan Police District.
Mr. Stonehouse: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, which will help to relieve public anxiety after the disturbing events of ten days ago in Whitehall, may I ask him to confirm that when large crowds congregate in Whitehall only foot police will be used and that the police will confine themselves to controlling the crowds rather than trying to provoke them?
Mr. Butler: It is the normal practice of the Metropolitan Police to control the crowds and not to provoke them, and it is not the normal intention to use dogs in dispersing demonstrators. I hope that my Answer will have indicated that this was no change of policy whatever and that the presence of these dogs was entirely fortuitous and that they were then sent home.
Mr. Royle: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us in the House will not regard his Answer as helpful? Is there not a sinister suggestion in the presence of police dogs at public demonstrations? Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that there is a very great difference between the use of police dogs at public demonstrations and their use for breaking up criminal gangs? Is it not a fact that these dogs were a really sinister suggestion to anyone who was present in that demonstration in Whitehall, and also at a trade union gathering in the North of England?
Mr. Butler: The hon. Member's supplementary question is very helpful, because he has differentiated between the
546
use of police dogs in dealing with demonstrations and their use in other police work. I accept that. It is the exact position.
The hon. Member has already referred to the use of police dogs at Carrington, in Cheshire, of which I am fully aware. This is not, of course, a matter for the Home Secretary, but for the Chief Constable of Cheshire and the local authority. The presence of this dog was entirely fortuitous, and it was not used. I understand also that this dog attracted certain other friendly dogs, which created an altogether exaggerated impression of the use of dogs on this occasion. I hope that the House will accept my Answer as being quite clear.
Mr. Allaun: How can the Home Secretary say that this was fortuitous when several dogs were sent to the meeting of trade unionists in Manchester and whose presence can be confirmed by trade union officials? Does he not feel that the sending of police dogs to a trade union meeting is more likely to provoke trouble than to prevent it?
Sir P. Agnew: Before my right hon. Friend replies—
Hon. Members: Why?
Mr. Speaker: Sir Peter Agnew.
Sir P. Agnew: Does not this go to show, on the evidence which has been given to the House, that the dog is a gregarious animal and often comports itself in its affairs much better and more peacefully than human beings do?
Mr. Butler: Although the case in the North of England is not my responsibility, and we must be quite clear about that, I have ascertained that the dogs' presence was fortuitous. As far as I know it is not the object of any police authority to use dogs in dispersing crowds, or in attending trade union meetings.
Mr. Gordon Walker: The Home Secretary used the phrase earlier that it was not the "normal intention" of the police to use dogs in these political meetings. Could he elucidate that? The use of the expression "normal intention", in an answer to a supplementary question, could imply that there was some conceivable intention to use them. We all want to draw this distinction, which the

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right hon. Gentleman drew, between the use of dogs to break up gangs and such things and the use of dogs in attendance at political meetings. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman can give us a categorical assurance that it is not the intention of the police that dogs should be used for the latter purpose.
Mr. Butler: The observations made by the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Royle) represent the facts, namely, the differentiation between demonstrations and what might be the use of dogs to deal with gangs. The right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) has confirmed the opinion which I should like to express and which was conveyed by the hon. Member for Salford.

TUMBLE COLLIERY, CARMARTHENSHIRE (ACCIDENT)
Mr. J. Griffiths(by Private Notice) asked the Paymaster-General whether he will make a statement on the accident which occurred at Tumble Colliery on the night of 25th February.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Sir Ian Horobin): Three men were killed at Great Mountain Colliery at Tumble, Carmarthenshire, during the evening of Tuesday, 25th February, when a sudden outburst of coal occurred. H.M. Inspectors of Mines are investigating the accident, and will make a thorough review of the precautions which are taken at the colliery to avoid accidents of this kind.
The House will no doubt wish to join with me in expressing sympathy to the relatives of the men who lost their lives.
Mr. Griffiths: I desire, on behalf of my right hon. and hon. Friends, to associate myself with the Parliamentary Secretary's expression of sympathy. As, to my own knowledge, there have been incidents because of an outburst of gas through coal in this valley before, may I ask whether there will be a full inquiry and, if so, whether, when the inquiry is completed, its report will be published?
Sir I. Horobin: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, this particularly tragic type of danger in coalmining is peculiar to this area of the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I did not say that it was
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confined to that area, but I have the support of the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) that it has happened before. It is a very special danger to this kind of mining and, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, there is, as a result, a special advisory committee, representing the bodies concerned, which employs a full-time inspector and gives special attention to this danger.
A special series of precautions are laid down which apply to this colliery. I have no reason to suppose, and no reason has yet been given to suppose, that these precautions have not been properly carried out. All that, of course, will be gone into very thoroughly at the investigation which is taking place. I think that it will be best to wait for the preliminary report of that investigation before considering whether any, and, if so, what, further action should be taken.
Lady Megan Lloyd George: May I ask the Minister what arrangements have been made to give immediate financial assistance to the wives and dependants of the men who have been killed in this tragic accident?
Sir I. Horobin: As the hon. Lady knows, there is a special fatal accidents scheme relevant to this type of tragedy. I am happy to be able to inform the House that two payments have been made already and that the third will be made today.

THE RIGHT HON. MEMBER FOR WOODFORD
Mr. Gaitskell: Before I put the business Question, Mr. Speaker, may I ask whether, if the House so desires, it would be possible for a message to be sent on behalf of all of us to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), whose recovery I am sure we all welcome, expressing our satisfaction at this fact and conveying our warm personal greetings?
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I feel sure that all hon. Members on this side of the House, indeed the whole House, will be grateful for the gracious thought that has come into the mind of the Leader of the Opposition. Naturally, I sent on behalf of myself and my right hon. and hon. Friends a message to my right hon.

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Friend at an earlier stage and I was happy to get from him a very robust reply. I think it will give him a very great deal of pleasure to know that the whole House joins in good wishes to him—the greatest of our House of Commons men, and one who loves the House. I am sure that it will give him great satisfaction to know the affection we all have for him.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 3RD MARCH—Supply [5th Allotted Day].
It is proposed to take the Report stage of the Civil Vote on Account formally. There will then be a debate on the Consequences of the Rent Act, 1957, which will take place on an Opposition Motion, until 7 o'clock.
At 7 o'clock, opposed Private Business has been appointed for consideration by the Chairman of Ways and Means.
TUESDAY, 4TH MARcH—Supply [6th Allotted Day].
Navy Estimates, 1958–59, will be considered in Committee on Vote A.
The House will recall that we accepted the recommendation made by the Select Committee on Procedure last Session, that the general debate on the Service Estimates in future should take place in Committee of Supply on Vote A.
WEDNESDAY, 5TH MARCH—Second Reading of the National Health Service Contributions Bill.
Consideration of the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) Order relating to the U.S.A.
THURSDAY, 6TH MARCH—Supply [7th Allotted Day].
Army Estimates, 1958–59, will be considered in Committee on Vote A.
FRIDAY, 7TH MARCH—Consideration of Private Members' Bills.
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask whether it is intended to suspend the rule on Tuesday and Thursday for the Navy and Army Estimates?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. After consultation through the usual channels, and elsewhere, we have decided that a two-hour suspension until midnight will meet the wishes of hon. Members.
Mr. Page: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he has noticed a Motion on the Order Paper concerning the United Nations' Report on Tanganyika?
[That this House takes note of the Report on the Trust Territory of Tanganyika made by the Visiting Mission (1957) of the United Nations Trusteeship Council.]
Can my right hon. Friend find time for this Motion, which has been signed by hon. Members on both sides of the House?
Mr. Butler: I have the Motion here, but I do not think at present that there will be time for it. I will, however, give consideration to my hon. Friend's suggestion.
Mr. Fernyhough: When the Leader of the House made the decision to suspend the rule for two hours, did he look at what happened at previous debates on the Army Estimates? Is he aware that some of us had to sit here until 5 o'clock or 6 o'clock in the morning to make our speeches? Does he not think that, when we are asked to pass Estimates of£400 million or£500 million, all Members ought to be given time to make a contribution to the debate if they so desire?
Mr. Butler: I will consider what the hon. Gentleman has said, but we thought that a suspension until midnight would be for the general convenience of the Committee when it takes these Estimates.
Mr. Oram: May I refer again to the decision of the House on 31st January to appoint a Select Committee on Procedure, and to the fact that, despite what the Prime Minister said last Thursday, nothing has yet appeared on the Order Paper? Was it not logical to assume that when the Prime Minister, last week, referred to next week, he meant this week?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir, the Prime Minister did mean this week and the names will be tabled, I hope, either today or tomorrow; at any rate, this week.
Mr. G. Thomas: Is it not unwise for the Government to seek to limit the opportunity of back benchers to criticise, if they so will, such a very large expenditure of public money? Is it not also unwise of hon. Members, who might agree on this occasion with the expenditure, to fetter themselves for occasions when they will be opposed to the spending of public money in this way?
Mr. Butler: There is no desire unduly to fetter the discussion. That is why we suggested a suspension of two hours. After consideration, and as far as we can ascertain, that is as far as it would be wise to go and I think it should give sufficient opportunity to hon. Members.
Mr. Gaitskell: Since the right hon. Gentleman referred to consultation through the usual channels, may I ask him whether it is not the case that we asked for an indefinite suspension for the debate on the Army Estimates? We all realise that we are now involved in a new procedure, and that there is room for some experiment, but we certainly do not feel that the debate should be limited on all three Estimates this year. We feel that the debate on the Army Estimates should have unlimited suspension.
Mr. Butler: The right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends certainly expressed the view that the Army Estimates were different from the others, but we thought, after consideration, that a reasonable and fair course would be to give a suspension of two hours for each of the two Estimates. That remains our opinion, but if the right hon. Gentleman wants to make further representations to me, I will be glad to consider them.
Mr. Gower: In view of the increased awareness of the value of the Commonwealth, does not my right hon. Friend think it might be advantageous to have at an early date a general debate on Commonwealth trade and methods of developing it?
Mr. Butler: The Government would regard such a debate as advantageous in every way, but I am not sure how we shall find the time.
Mr. Chapman: Can the Lord Privy Seal yet say when there will be a statement on the negotiations over the European Free Trade Area? Have we not waited rather too long now for a Government statement?
Mr. Butler: My right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General has been busily engaged in these matters. They involve not only Her Majesty's Government, but also very protracted negotiations with the Governments of several other European countries. When we have reached a conclusion which is suitable for a statement, we shall be ready to make it.
Mr. Lipton: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that three or three-and-a-half hours will really be adequate to discuss the consequences of the Rent Act, 1957? Does he not think that a little more time should be allotted to this important problem? I could take up three-and-a-half hours myself, just reading the letters that I have had protesting against it.
Mr. Butler: Many opportunities have been taken by the Opposition to draw our attention to the consequences of the Rent Act, and on each occasion we have had a most triumphant vindication. On this occasion the Government would have been very ready to have the whole day, but the Chairman of Ways and Means has been obliged to put down opposed private business, I presume because there is no other opening in the coming week. That is why there is this coincidence of the business on private matters with the business on the Rent Act.
Mr. Robens: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Government propose to provide time for a debate on the Cohen Committee's Report?
Mr. Butler: I am not aware that we have such a project in mind at the moment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because we have a certain amount of business to get through. Perhaps the Opposition would care to give up some of their time for this purpose?
Mr. Lewis: On Monday's debate, on the effects of the Rent Act, if the Leader of the House is so convinced that the House feels the same way as he does, will he seriously consider having a free vote so that we can really see what the views of hon. Members are? We know that

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many hon. Members opposite, including the 40 who have sent a letter to the Prime Minister, are very worried about the matter. If we had a free vote, we could see what the feeling of the House was.
Mr. Butler: Her Majesty's Government prefer to interpret the views of their own supporters themselves and not on the advice of the hon. Member.
Mr. Callaghan: Will the Leader of the House take note of the continued forbearance of the Opposition on the matter of affairs in Cyprus? Although we have no wish in any way to embarrass the Government if negotiations are now taking place, there is no indication that effective negotiations are being pursued. Will the right hon. Gentleman take note that we must return to the subject and ask for a debate in the absence of information from the Government about a statement of their position?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. The Opposition have shown a degree of forbearance on what is an extremely intractable problem and I will certainly draw the attention of my right hon. Friends who are particularly concerned to the observations of the hon. Member.
Mr. Fernyhough: Mr. Speaker, in view of the inflexibility of the Leader of the House about extending the time during which we can discuss the Army Estimates, I wonder whether you will turn a blind eye next week, in the debate on the Army Estimates, towards any hon. Member who was fortunate enough to speak yesterday and is able to speak today?
Mr. Speaker: This debate will be in Committee of Supply and not for me to deal with at all. So far as I can contrive it, I never have any blind eyes.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  DEFENCE
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [26th February]:
  That this House approves the Report on Defence (Britain's Contribution to Peace and Security) set out in Command Paper No. 363.—[Mr. Sandys.]
  Which Amendment was, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "declines to approve a defence policy which relies predominantly upon the threat of thermo-nuclear warfare, insists on the installation of strategic rocket bases in Britain before the projected summit talks, and fails to provide effectively for Britain's defence requirements."—[Mr. G. Brown.]
  Question again proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.
  3.53 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: Last night, the Minister of Supply wound up the first day of our two days' debate on defence with what I found to be a most depressing speech. If the equipment of our front line is as he told us, and if the fleet of transport aircraft is as far off as he indicated, then the Services are heading for serious trouble. He told us a lot, but he did not make the link between the military and political arguments which we developed because we believe that controlled international disarmament is our surest defence.
  Let me remind the House of the position. We are convinced that the Government's decision on American missile bases is wrong: wrong politically and wrong militarily. It is wrong politically because, as has been argued, the coming talks with Russia are so important that nothing should be done which might jeopardise their success. Furthermore, if the Government genuinely want summit talks on disarmament and are pressing that view on Washington, would it not strengthen the British case to say to the American Government that we do not want to begin work on the bases for the American missiles before there are summit talks?
  We have to recognise that the relationship of North America to Europe has changed. Now that Russia has an I.C.B.M. of some

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  kind—we do not know what kind—North America needs Europe even more than Europe needs North America. We are within sight, for the first time of a true partnership in N.A.T.O. We should recognise that by acting as if we realised that we were full partners.
  Let us consider these missiles and see whether the Americans do not need us more than we need them. The Americans have developed a missile with 1,500-mile range. It is useless to them, unless they can launch it from a country like this, which is within range. They cannot use it from Texas or California.
  Besides being wrong politically, we have said that it is wrong militarily and we have deployed many arguments. However, since the Secretary of State for Air is to follow me, I shall confine myself, under this head, to dealing with the missiles themselves. I have talked with Service men, scientists and journalists who specialise in these matters and I have not yet met a single person who has had a good word to say for the Thor. That is a remarkable fact. Hitherto, when there have been differences of opinion about weapons, I have always found someone who had a good word or a bad word to say in minority against the majority view.
  Let us look at two aspects of these missiles: their reliability and the time they take to be prepared. Tests have shown that they cannot be trusted to go off when they are meant to go off. Is it not the case that a liquid propellant is used which is, as someone described it, highly temperamental, so that, like the German V-2, if it is not used immediately on being fuelled, a misfire is very likely? Yet, if the missiles are to be of any value as a deterrent, must they not always be ready, alerted?
  That brings me to the second aspect. Do they not take several hours to prepare? Is it not the fact that liquid propelled rockets are all right for an aggressor like the Germans, in 1944—because it does not very much matter when they go off—but far too dangerous for a democracy to depend on them for defence? For the strictest military reasons, before the Government turn Bomber Command inside out, they should wait for the development of a solid fuel rocket able to be launched from underground or under the sea.
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  The Government have emphasised—on Monday the Minister of Defence went out of his way to state it—that the missiles were to be manned by the Royal Air Force. How do the Government reconcile that with what is happening in Washington? Yesterday, a colonel in Washington—and I quote from the Daily Telegraph—"Colonel Zink, who commands the First Thor Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile Squadron, which will be stationed in Britain" had this to say—
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. Duncan Sandys): I can save the hon. Member pursuing this matter too far. I am sure that what was stated in the papers may have caused surprise and even shock to some people after the announcement which I made on Monday. I have inquired from Washington what the statement is all about and I am assured that the United States Government are at present on the point of issuing a statement explaining the position. This unit is destined to come to England, but, of course, not to man and operate missiles, but to install the specialised equipment which the United States are providing and to help with the training of our own R.A.F. units.
  Mr. de Freitas: I am grateful to the Minister of Defence for intervening, but I hope that the Secretary of State for Air, when he speaks, will amplify that intervention and will reconcile it at every stage with what the colonel says—for instance, how quickly these missiles can be in action and whether it is merely a matter of 15 minutes.
  The whole tenor of this statement is of an operational commander coming into another country and telling the world what he will do. The Secretary of State for Air is to follow me, and I should like this explaining. I should like to know the nature of the colonel's command, and how far he is to joint in our debates. if we say that it takes x hours to launch one of these weapons, is the colonel going to say that we are wrong, or is the Secretary of State for Air going to answer Questions about it? Are we to engage in public controversy with visiting American officers—
  Mr. George Brown: We might get better answers.
  Mr. de Freitas: We might, as my right hon. Friend says, get better answers, but

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  this is important, and I hope that the Secretary of State for Air will treat it as such.
  We want to know the nature of the colonel's command, how far he will take part in our debates and how far his estimate of 15 minutes is a half-truth which assumes that these missiles are ready fuelled. In other words, I put it to the Secretary of State for Air whether this 15 minutes' estimate is not ridiculous, since it takes several hours to prepare the missiles and they cannot be left ready prepared without running serious risk of misfire.
  This is the kind of report which is liable, unless we are very careful, to do grave harm to the relations between this country and the United States. May I illustrate this? It is stated in the Report that the colonel is coming to one of the missile bases on the East Coast which have been allocated under the terms of the recent Agreement. This is the area of the American bomber bases.
  American airmen have always been well received in this countryside. From my experience in my own constituency, and the fact that my home is in that part of the country, together with the fact that I happen to like Americans, I can vouch for my statement that the Americans have been well received. But this is the question. Will these good relations continue if the public, who have been upset by the implications of paragraph 12 of he White Paper, believe that there is a chance of instant devastation because of the missile bases being set up to deploy American missiles, which, in the words of the Manchester Guardian,
  "can add little to the deterrent, and may make it more of a target."?
  I regret to have to pose this Question. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) knows that I differ from him about this. He is, I think, the only Member I have heard actually say that he would like to see our American allies go back across the Atlantic.
  Mr. Leslie Hale Mr. Leslie Hale (Oldham, West) indicated assent.
  Mr. de Freitas: There are very few who would say that, but we have to recognise that we are moving into a difficult atmosphere.
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  Last year, I referred to the Government reducing us to the status of a satellite, and I used the word Formosa in relation to the United States. Since then, I have been in Formosa, and I was there when there were anti-American riots and the American Embassy was sacked and looted and the Embassy staff were injured. I am not suggesting that anything like that could happen here. I am saying that these riots were caused by pride, by the fact that the people felt helpless because their defence was in the hands of other persons. We have something of that sort growing up, and it is being played on. I do not want to exaggerate it, but we must study this problem. I beg hon. Members to consider it.
  We have reached a stage when, on this important matter, we are told, in effect, that we cannot be trusted with the warheads, which have to be kept under lock and key. We must recognise the fact that we know that many people feel themselves humiliated by that. The feeling of humiliation in one partner is bound to do great harm to an alliance.
  I know that while there are discussions in Washington about a change in the McMahon Act, some American Service chiefs have warned Congressmen against the change. They have said—although it will seem paradoxical to most of us—that they do not like us to have our fingers on the trigger and that it is safer otherwise. They base their arguments on what happened in 1956. It is most important that we should point out, first, that no British Government would ever "go it alone" again as at Suez. The lesson was learned. Secondly, and this is something which Americans so often forget, we already have our own fingers on our own triggers in our own V-bombers and our own thermo-nuclear bombs. That argument is entirely out of date.
  Mr. Hale: My hon. Friend is doing me an unwitting injustice, which I am sure he will not mind me correcting. What I said was that I very much welcome having the Americans come here, but I did not like having the spearhead of a bombing force located near centres of population, which attracted our own defence by fighters to the defence of the deterrent, as stated in the

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  White Paper, and that, in my view, it was a matter for consideration whether the added danger was not greater than the added defence. I know that they cannot go to California, but they can go to other areas where they would be just as near to any possible targets, but not so near to centres of population.
  Mr. de Freitas: I am sorry if I did my hon. Friend an injustice, but evidently I did misunderstand him. I thought he said what I have charged him with saying.
  The main argument against the doctrine of paragraph 12 of the White Paper has already been deployed in full, and I will not repeat it. It has been pointed out that the Government are adopting a policy which has been abandoned by the Americans, and that it is the case that what the Pentagon thought yesterday the Government are thinking today. I wish to deal with two questions related to this policy.
  The first is this. Having adopted a policy which must inevitably involve the carrying of nuclear weapons in aircraft, whether for transport or training, the Government have not adopted adequate safeguards against the hazards. During the last four or five weeks, I have put a number of Questions to the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary, the Minister of Defence, and the Secretary of State for Air on the training of Service and civilian teams to deal with crashed aircraft carrying nuclear weapons. Anyone who reads these Questions and Answers carefully—because on a number of Questions the Answers are not closely related to the Questions—must come to the conclusion that the Government underestimated the dangers and have not taken thorough precautions. I was staggered to find out what had not been done.
  May I take as an illustration the case of fire brigades in rural areas in East Anglia and Lincolnshire? The Government have refused to train these fire brigades to deal with crashed aircraft carrying nuclear weapons. Any town or village in Lincolnshire or East Anglia might suffer such a crash, and I am told that not long ago an aircraft with nuclear weapons did crash in a field in East Anglia.
  I am told that the local fire brigade was called, but, before it could get under
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  way, the police ordered the brigade not to go, because a military team would deal with it. It so happened that this crash was only a couple of miles from the base, and, as far as I know, everything that could be done was done. However, let us imagine the consequences of such an aircraft crashing in a village 50 miles from the base, with the fire brigade kept off by the police, because only Service men were trained to deal with this problem, and they were on their way there, from many miles away. It is a serious problem.
  Secondly, I am puzzled by the Government's reluctance to tell the public of the consequences of nuclear explosions in war. In the White Paper we still find the words "Civil Defence". Today, that phrase has associations with the last war—with air raid wardens, evacuation, fire-watching, hot, sweet tea, and the rest—and it is utterly out of place in the conditions envisaged by the rest of the White Paper. It is almost as unrealistic as the air raid precautions of the First World War. I can just remember policemen riding round on bicycles—I believe that they blew bugles—and carrying placards, which, I was told read "Take Cover."
  It cannot be an accident that every organisation dealing with Civil Defence has condemned the Government for their lack of decision. For example, the Government have promised us, year after year, that a booklet on industrial fire protection would soon be published. Where is it? Have the Government made up their mind about evacuation? The Government have a duty to keep their home defence policies related to their foreign policies. Even the Americans, with their huge country, are having second thoughts about evacuation. Some of the earlier plans encouraged dispersal; industries were to go from the Eastern seaboard to the Middle West. But they have now discovered that the centre of European Russia is as near to Kansas as it is to New York, and rockets and aircraft tend to travel in straight lines. They have, therefore, dropped those plans.
  The essential danger is that if the Government tie themselves up to an obsolete conception of Civil Defence they will allow the impression to grow that nothing can be done, and the next

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  thing that will happen is that local authorities will begin abandoning Civil Defence.
  Mr. Marcus Kimball: As an hon. Member whose constituency is also in Lincolnshire I must say that I feel that the hon. Gentleman is spreading alarm and despondency. If he looks at a map of Lincolnshire and East Anglia he will see that it would be nearly impossible to crash an aircraft anywhere outside a 10-mile radius of an Air Force base whose personnel were trained to deal with these matters.
  Mr. de Freitas: The question is: how many Air Force teams are trained? It is easy to crash an aircraft on the coast of East Anglia or Lincolnshire, many miles from any base that has a crew specially trained to deal with the nuclear problem.
  I was saying that local authorities will begin to abandon Civil Defence. Part of the trouble is the phrase "Civil Defence". It is not "defence". It is "assistance", "help", or "aid". Everyone who has studied the problem, from the Mabane Committee downwards, has said that if the public were told the worst, and were told what could be done, they would be prepared to do it. In the fallout areas or in the fringe areas on the perimeter of an area of devastation—it is knowledge of what to do that matters, rather than a mass of equipment. To put it coldly and statistically, even if millions of people were killed there would be millions left, but those millions could survive only if, among them, were those who had a widespread knowledge of first-aid, the repair of public services and utilities, the distribution of food, and the location of stocks of food.
  We want to know what the Government are doing about giving up the traditional idea of "Civil Defence", as considered in the White Paper, and adopting a realistic policy of "civil help" or "civil aid". It is not defence. The word confuses people. That is why local authorities are becoming increasingly reluctant to undertake the work.
  Taking the White Paper as a whole, it is plain that the Government are thinking in this out-of-date way. Each of the successive Ministers of Defence has given
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  defence planning a jerk in a different direction, but it has not yet settled down. Reading the White Paper, one becomes aware that the Government are still not keeping pace with modern scientific thinking, modern ideas of mobility, and modern political thinking.
  Because of the Government's financial policies and difficulties they are forgetting that the most important requirement for research and invention is not money. We all recognise that our pattern of education encourages research and invention, just as American education and the resources of the country have made its people the developers. We cannot compete with them in developing, but it so happens that we are complementary. This means that we must do even more to foster research and invention.
  The White Paper does not give enough emphasis to this probably because the Minister of Defence is too concerned with his problem of planning backwards from a financial limit, with Supplementary Estimates to follow later. The financial approach has led him to forget that money is not the important requirement in research and invention. We remember the well-known remark of Lord Rutherford, at Cambridge:
  "We have no money for equipment, we will have to use our brains instead."
  That does not apply to development, but it does apply to research and invention. The White Paper and the planners must consider the matter from this point of view.
  The Government are also out of date in the matter of mobility. A few weeks ago we had "Exercise Quickstep," which was a joint Air Force and Army airlift to Tripoli. It was a shock to all those who thought that there was some mobility in our Army reserve. I think that it took 36 hours to airlift 500 troops and equipment from England to Tripoli. I agree with the many newspapers which concluded that the exercise proved beyond all doubt—and I quote:
  "Through Government neglect … the concept of a strategic reserve, able to move anywhere, at any time is a complete myth."
  That was from a syndicated article in the Oxford Mail and other newspapers. If there is to be any mobility it is essential that more modern transport aircraft should be ordered.

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  My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) put a number of questions yesterday, with which the Secretary of State will no doubt deal. I go further and ask whether he can tell us about future orders. What about the new Blackburn 107? What about the Short-Bristol development of the Britannia, or the Armstrong-Whitworth aircraft? What is the use of spending so much money upon the Army's strategic reserve if it cannot be moved where it is needed, when it is needed?
  In another respect I feel that the Government are out of date, because Government thinking is based upon a situation which may have existed some years ago, but which does not exist today. The Government link N.A.T.O. with S.E.A.T.O. N.A.T.O. is generally accepted as the basis of our defence—and I shall have something to say about that shortly—but the value of S.E.A.T.O. is openly questioned and more and more condemned. I speak for myself, in saying this. The Minister of Defence has recently been to the Far East, so I am surprised that the White Paper is founded upon an out-of-date conception—the Communist threat to South-East Asia.
  Of course, there is a threat of Chinese expansion, but whether it is Communist or not is irrelevant to the people out there. When I asked one or two leaders in South-East Asia what should be done to strengthen S.E.A.T.O. against the Chinese threat, more than one replied, "Let us get Russia to join it." It is essentially anti-Chinese expansion, yet the Government somehow link it with N.A.T.O. as if it were a bulwark of the West against Communism.
  Last night, the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale) referred to my hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition as paying lip service to N.A.T.O. That is certainly not correct and it is important to get on the record that my right hon. Friend went out of his way to stress our support of N.A.T.O. It is the basis of our defence in Europe. N.A.T.O. was born in different conditions and has not adapted itself as we should like to modern times. Even when the Government have tried to adapt N.A.T.O. they have attempted to develop interdependence in such a half-cock way that Germany, France and Italy have got together
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  in what might be called their own private nuclear club.
  If we are to adapt N.A.T.O. to modern requirements, two points must be considered. First, there should be a development of the annual meeting of Members of Parliament and Congressmen from the member countries and that meeting could serve two purposes. It would provide a forum for the Members of Parliament and Congressmen to debate and criticise the policies of their Governments and the military and civilian servants on the international staff, and to suggest alternative policies. Then, it would provide an opportunity for the Members of Parliament and Congressmen to learn at first hand what the alliance was doing, and to hear from the international staff and question them. At present, the conference is too much like a briefing exercise rather than a debate, where Members and Congressmen can criticise the policies of their Governments and offer alternatives.
  Secondly, consultation between Governments. There are signs of a great deal more of it, but at what a cost. Look at the delay in the replies to the letters of Marshal Bulganin. I wonder whether we have yet been able to realise the cost in time resulting from our moving into this sphere of consultation among a large number of allies. That is something which must be taken into account. At present, the Western countries are often two letters behind in this propaganda barrage and the success of the Russian letters has been very great.
  Even in this country they have had some success. I fear that in this country there is bound to be a wave of pacifism or neutralism. I believe that the Government have encouraged this, not, of course, deliberately, but by confusing and frightening the public. It was started by the Suez incident. Then, last year, there came a Defence White Paper, which had a defeatist ring about it. This year's White Paper, with its crude threat in paragraph 12, has gone a long way to complete the process. The Minister of Defence is responsible for much of this confusion because he has insisted on dramatising his White Paper. Before its publication he refused to answer Questions, saying that we must await he White Paper. I can understand that practice being adopted by Chancellors of the Exchequer over their Budget statements,

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  but I cannot see any reason why the Minister of Defence should withhold information unless it be to dramatise his White Paper.
  Attention having been drawn to the White Paper, out comes the threat which is contained in paragraph 12. This is followed by the Prime Minister putting a different emphasis upon it both in television interviews and in this House. No wonder the public is confused. Now, by taking what we on this side of the House regard as useless American missiles, we are apparently to have American officers joining in the game of confusing the public by making statements followed by contradictions. The people of this country will not support any Government in a defence policy which they do not understand. When on one day they are subjected to thundering statements in bold black and white and the next to qualifications, they do not know where they are, and the very word "defence" is becoming discredited. I fear that all of us, and not only the Government, will live to regret this White Paper and this missile Agreement.
  4.25 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. George Ward): The two topics which dominated yesterday's debate were the nuclear deterrent policy of the Government and the American ballistic rocket. Thor. I wish to deal with those two topics and answer some of the points made during yesterday's debate and today by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas).
  There are three main criticisms of the Government's policy. The Labour Party agrees that there should be a British contribution to the nuclear deterrent, but argues that our policy relies too much upon it. The view of the Liberal Party is that there should be a deterrent, but only an American one. A third school believes that nuclear weapons should be banned altogether in advance of any comprehensive disarmament agreement. I wish briefly to discuss each of those views.
  First, the Labour Party. The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) yesterday made clear that his party has long accepted that there should be a British deterrent. Indeed, it is true that we inherited this deterrent policy from the Labour Government, who
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  courageously took the decision to manufacture the atom bomb. While accepting this, the right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that we ought, nevertheless, to spend more money on conventional forces. He thought that the size of these forces was being restricted by the determination of the Government to keep defence expenditure within certain limits.
  In reply to that, I would say that the main element in conventional forces is not money, but men. Even were money unlimited we could not significantly increase the size of our conventional forces and retain any hope of getting rid of National Service. The manpower absorbed by the whole of Bomber Command is less than 20,000, so that reducing it would help very little. We might well find that, having done so, we had got the worst of both worlds by seriously weakening our deterrent power while making no worthwhile difference to our conventional strength. In any case, we should still have to keep large numbers of aircraft in Bomber Command for carrying high explosive bombs.
  When we talk about nuclear and conventional weapons we must remember that the carriers of these weapons can fulfil more than one purpose. For example, within our total bomber force, both medium and light, we can carry thermo-nuclear, tactical or high explosive bombs, and the aircraft can be quickly moved to any part of the world where there are suitable bases.
  Now may I turn for a moment to the Liberal Party's view which, I have no doubt, is just as sincerely held as that of anybody else. It is not easy to understand how one can renounce the H-bomb, no doubt on fine moral grounds, and, at the same time, be quite ready to shelter behind the Americans, relying on that very weapon for the prevention of another global war. To their credit, the Labour Party has rejected this thesis. The right hon. Member the Leader of the Opposition, speaking in the foreign affairs debate last week, said:
  "Nor do we believe in neutralism. This must mean, as, indeed, the Prime Minister said, either sheltering behind the United States, or the destruction of N.A.T.O., and neither of these things commends itself to us. However tempting it may be occasionally to think how nice it would be if we could be in the position of Switzerland or Sweden, contracting out of any danger, contracting out, as we would hope, of future wars, and thereby no doubt

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  improving our standard of living, I do not believe that is a possible path for this country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th February, 1958; Vol. 582, c. 1233.]
  I can do no better than commend those views to the Liberal Party.
  I turn, finally, to the school of thought which would ban nuclear weapons altogether in advance of a comprehensive disarmament agreement. There was an interesting intervention yesterday by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) during the speech of his right hon. Friend the Member for Belper, when these views came out quite clearly. If this were our policy, the defence of the West would rest only upon conventional forces. Let us look at what the bill might be to enable the Western allies to withhold a full-scale Russian attack by conventional means.
  Before mobilisation, the Russians would have about 200 divisions, a figure which would be doubled after mobilisation. They have about 500 modern submarines; the maximum number of U-boats which the German Navy deployed at the height of the last war was fewer than 235.
  Mr. John Cronin: Is it not the case that nearly half of those 500 Russian submarines can operate only quite close to the Russian bases?
  Mr. Ward: Both the 500 modern Russian submarines and the 235 in the German Navy have this in common; they would not all be at sea at the same time. That does not matter. The naval and air forces needed to deal with the threat by conventional means would be enormous. Think of the air alone. At the height of the Battle of the Atlantic, in the last war, there were about 500 long-range maritime aircraft based in the United Kingdom. At least this number would be needed again and probably many more in a new Battle of the Atlantic.
  The Russians have about 20,000 military aircraft. If the Western allies had to deal with hostile air forces of this size they would need very large increases in the number of their bomber, fighter and tactical aircraft. To meet a conventional air threat to the United Kingdom alone, fighter Command would have to be equipped with the latest fighters on a scale four or five times as
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  great as that planned at present. If our bombers were to drop only conventional bombs on the multiplicity of targets which would need attention in a long conventional war, the size of our bomber forces would have to be very greatly increased.
  My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence, speaking in yesterday's debate, estimated that our contribution might have to be between 1 million and 1½ million men in the Armed Forces and an expenditure of perhaps£1,000 million a year on the defence budget.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: More.
  Mr. Ward: Yes, it would be a further expenditure of£1,000 million a year on the defence budget.
  Suppose all this were possible. It would be unwise to believe that even then we should be entirely freed from the fear of nuclear attack. If the Russians found themselves losing a war fought only with conventional weapons, does anyone really believe that they would hesitate to use nuclear weapons to avoid defeat?
  Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: We are trying to follow the right hon. Gentleman's argument. Is the argument that if the Russians' superiority of conventional weapons were so overwhelming that there was no kind of military engagement that we could have without the danger of the nuclear weapon being used, does that not mean that we cannot resist anything except the tiniest frontier action without immediate recourse to nuclear weapons? That is the only meaning I can get from the argument.
  Mr. Ward: I am merely trying to bring home what it would mean in terms of men, money and aircraft if the Western allies had to match the weight of Russian conventional forces. I was not making any further point than that.
  It might give pause to those who say that we ought to ban the H-bomb without having first a disarmament agreement about conventional weapons. Even in the context of global war fought with conventional weapons, an effective nuclear deterrent would still be necessary. The more successful we were in countering a conventional attack the more

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  certain we could be that the Russians would eventually use nuclear weapons against us unless they feared retaliation in kind.
  We, in common with the whole of the free world, sincerely and passionately desire disarmament and, as my right hon. Friend said yesterday, we will work flat out for it, but we simply cannot afford to drop our guard during the period of negotiations.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: Is the right hon. Gentleman appreciating the point which some of us have been trying to make, that there can he no question whatever of major war in the future which is not, at some point, conducted with atomic weapons? The whole point is: are we not putting ourselves into a position in which we are compelled immediately to make every small war into a great war?
  Mr. Ward: That is not the point I was on. I was talking purely about large-scale war fought with conventional weapons.
  Let me turn to the ballistic rocket, Thor. Several questions were asked yesterday about its military value. The hon. Member for Lincoln asked more questions today. I will try to answer them. Suggestions have been made that it ought to go underground or under water, and because it can do neither it has been called vulnerable and obsolete.
  This weapon is of the first generation of ballistic rockets, or the second if we count the V-2. Of course, others will follow, each one more advanced and less vulnerable than the last. As in the case of aircraft, if we always wait for the next one coming along behind we shall wait for ever and never get it. This weapon will strengthen the Western deterrent and add to its flexibility. By this I mean that the enemy defences will be faced with an increased variety of threat. It will add to their difficulties and so improve the overall effectiveness of the Western defence.
  Doubts have been cast upon the rocket's operational performance. I can only say that our scientists have been in close consultation with the American scientists, were kept in close touch with the progress of its development and its trials, and were satisfied that it will be
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  an efficient weapon. Of course, it will be fully tested before it is deployed in this country. The Government would not have accepted it unless they had been satisfied with its progress.
  It is entirely understandable that people should have some apprehension about missile sites being put near their homes. I think that they are apprehensive on several grounds: first, that they present targets for Russian attack; secondly, that they are to be used for practice with a possibility of going wrong; and, thirdly, that there might be an accident which would cause a nuclear explosion.
  On the first point, it poses a much more difficult problem for the Russians. The question is: does it make it more attractive? I should have thought not. I should have thought that these widely dispersed sites would have provided an unattractive target, because they would be small and contain only a few missiles. In any case, they would present a much more difficult target than strategic bomber bases have been in the past and will remain. Yet there does not seem to be the same fear of living near a bomber base as of having one of these rocket sites near.
  There is no question of launching these rockets or even test-firing the motors in peace-time, so, in fact, there will be less danger in living near them than in living near an airfield, and, of course, there will not be any noise of any kind. I can assure the House that there is no risk whatever of a nuclear explosion caused by an accident, even if there were some other kind of explosion, which is extremely unlikely. Each site will be in the centre of a safety area to which site the explosion would be confined.
  Mr. George Wigg: The right hon. Gentleman has made a very important statement and there is a question of tense. If I understood him aright, he said the Government were satisfied with the progress on these missiles, but they will be tested. Do we take it that the Government have agreed to accept these missiles before they have been tested?
  Mr. Ward: The Minister of Defence has said in this House that they are already in final stages of development and they have still more tests to do.
  Mr. Wigg: In other words, it is quite clear that, although the Government are satisfied with the programme, before the weapons are to be deployed they have yet to be tested?
  Mr. Ward: Every weapon has acceptance trials before it comes into service.
  Mr. G. Brown: I am very reluctant to intervene after what was said yesterday, but is the right hon. Gentleman now saying that the actual deployment of these missiles here will depend on the result of acceptance trials?
  Mr. Ward: The deployment of these weapons will take place after the technical representatives on both sides are agreed about performance, after their acceptance trials.
  We have never pretended that these rockets are an element of independent British power. That will come later, with our own rockets. Nevertheless, we in the Royal Air Force are glad to have them and grateful to the Americans for making them available.
  Mr. Roy Mason: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long it will be before they are developed, if they are still to be tested?
  Mr. Ward: I have been in the defence game much too long ever to prophesy about the delivery of any weapon.
  I will now deal with some further points which were raised yesterday. The right hon. Member for Belper said that the United Kingdom troop withdrawals from Germany had been made without the permission of N.A.T.O. Presumably, he was referring to the reduction in the current year of the size of B.A.O.R. from approximately 77,000 men to 63,500 and the proposed further reduction in 1958–59 from approximately 63,500 to 55,000. I can assure the House that in making these reductions Her Majesty's Government have fully conformed to the terms of their Treaty obligations.
  In February last year, when the Government first put forward proposals for force reductions in Germany, they placed them before the Council of W.E.U., which, in accordance with the Treaty, asked for the views of the Supreme Allied Commander. The Supreme Allied Commander recommended that the Army rundown should be spread over two years
  572
  instead of one. Her Majesty's Government agreed to do that and the W.E.U. Council, on 18th March, 1957, agreed that Her Majesty's Government should carry out their plans for 1957–58. At the same time, the North Atlantic Council was informed of the Supreme Allied Commander's recommendation and of the decision of Western European Union.
  Mr. Hale: It was not the decisions of Western European Union, which, in fact, carried a motion of censure on this policy, although not by a working majority. The W.E.U. Council may have approved it, but at the meeting of W.E.U. in April, 1957, there was tremendous complaint. It was then said that not even Ministers or Governments had been informed about the decisions of N.A.T.O. relating to the size of forces in Europe.
  Mr. Ward: Our Treaty obligations, of course, are to W.E.U. and not to N.A.T.O. The W.E.U. Council held similar discussions in January of this year about Her Majesty's Government's proposal that their forces should be further reduced by 8,500 men in the year 1958–59, and on 29th January the Council acquiesced in the United Kingdom proposal to make this further withdrawal. The Supreme Allied Commander and the North Atlantic Council were formally informed of our proposal and of the W.E.U. Council decision.
  Our Treaty obligations in this matter are to W.E.U. and not to N.A.T.O. The right hon. Member is wrong if he thinks it necessary for Her Majesty's Government to obtain the permission of N.A.T.O. to the force reductions I have described. We have obligations to consult N.A.T.O. This we have done. The members of W.E.U. are, of course, all members of N.A.T.O.
  The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) manipulated a large number of figures relating to the lifting capacity of various Transport Command aircraft. What he succeeded in doing was to show once again that one can make figures prove anything, especially if one's argument contains as many flaws as his did. He said yesterday that on previous occasions he had crossed swords with me on figures. I hope that he will enjoy doing so again this afternoon.

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  To show that the Government, by comparison with the Labour Administrations, have neglected their transport, he claimed that Labour provided 170 Hastings aircraft, 400 Valettas and Varsitys, and 150 Pembrokes. He said all we had provided was 47 Beverleys. He was good enough, however, to throw in 20 Britannias for what he called makeweight.
  The facts are that the number of 170 Hastings is greater than the total buy of this aircraft by both Governments, let alone the Labour Government. He gives his own party credit for Pembrokes, none of which was delivered or paid for until the present Government took office.
  Mr. Wigg: They were ordered.
  Mr. Ward: Yes, but they were not lifting anybody. The hon. Member included the Varsity, which was never a transport aircraft in any sense of the word. As its name implies, it is a training aircraft.
  Mr. Wigg: In that case, it only cancels out the Comet.
  Mr. Ward: I am coming to the Comet. It was interesting to know that the hon. Member found it convenient to omit all mention of the ten Comets.
  Mr. Wigg: They were only taken over because, otherwise, de Havillands would "go broke". The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that they may take the Minister of Defence to Ankara, or the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs somewhere, but that they are not valuable aircraft.
  Mr. Ward: They are doing valuable work in Transport Command.
  The only proper basis for comparison is to see what the lifting capacity of the aircraft in the front line was in 1951, when the Labour Government left office, compared with the lifting capacity of the aircraft in the front line today. This shows that the total lifting capacity of the Royal Air Force transport force, that is to say, the front line in Transport Command and the transport squadrons in the Middle East and Far East Air Forces, is today about twice as great as it was in the autumn of 1951. If I may also throw in the Shackletons for good measure, the comparative figure is even more striking.
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  This is not an easy exercise to do, but I have done my best to give the hon. Member's Party as much credit as possible. For example, the Valettas, which formed a large part of the available airlift in 1951, had a very short range at the payload figures which I have allotted to them. But the plain truth is that our transport force today is incomparably more effective than it was in October, 1951.
  Both the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) and the hon. Member for Lincoln asked me to deal with "Exercise Quickstep" The primary object of the exercise was to test the organisation for mounting an airlift of part of the strategic reserve at short notice. It was, therefore, undertaken with the minimum of pre-planning. The task was deliberately made as difficult as possible. It was deliberately made more difficult by using a mixed force of aircraft of three different types—Comets, Hastings and Beverleys—operating from two different bases. The number of aircraft employed was also deliberately limited so that it was necessary for them to return to the United Kingdom for a second load.
  In the event, Nature added realism to the exercise by producing a very rare condition of fog which affected both the destination airfield in Libya and also the diversion airfield in Malta, but, despite these handicaps, the small number of aircraft which we used was able to move about 500 troops with 10 vehicles and trailers and 10 tons of equipment a distance of about 1,400 miles in 34 hours under the most difficult conditions which we could devise.
  Brigadier O. L. Prior-Palmer: How much warning did people have before being given the order to go?
  Mr. Ward: I take it that my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to the Army troops. I cannot answer that question without notice.
  An exercise of this sort clearly involves a great deal of staff work in arranging the move of Army units. I do not know how long it took. The aircraft have to be prepared and the troops and the freight have to be loaded in. The aircraft have to be turned round quickly at the other end. The exercise has shown

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  that the organisation is fundamentally sound and flexible enough to cope with unexpected difficulties, and that is what it was designed to discover.
  May I end by saying a word about the men and women either already in the three Services or thinking of choosing a Service career. Like my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence, I feel that Service men and women must be convinced that they are doing a worth while job and that they are respected for it by their fellow countrymen. I should have thought that we could all agree that no responsibility could be more worth while than the preservation of our civilisation.
  I underline once more paragraph 2 of my right hon. Friend's White Paper, that
  "the peace of the world is being … maintained by a balance of arms, in part conventional and in part nuclear."
  From the point of view of the young men or young women considering a career in the Services, the nuclear weapon has created a demand for new skills, but it has not supplanted the need for the old. A chance to see the world and an outlet for the spirit of adventure is still available in the Services, together with a new stability.
  One of the greatest disincentives to a Service career in recent years has been the uncertainty surrounding the future size and shape of the Services. With the plan outlined in my right hon. Friend's White Paper of 1957, on which the 1958 White Paper is a progress report, we have entered a phase in which young men and women entering the Armed Forces can face the future with confidence. Men and women can do no greater service to the cause of peace than to accept the challenge of the great responsibilities which a Service life offers them.
  4.58 p.m.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: Since 1951, we have had seven Defence Ministers and have spent about£12,000 million on defence. What have we got for it? True, we have a new Minister of Defence, a new Secretary of State for War, a new First Lord of the Admiralty, a new Minister of Supply, and a new Secretary of State for Air. In addition, we have almost complete reliance in the context of a major war on the
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  United States of America. That is our position, and there is no escape from it.
  The right hon. Gentleman dilated on the theory and practice of defence, not altogether with the clarity which one might expect from him, but he endeavoured to make one contribution: he tried to clear up the somewhat complicated, perplexed and confusing problem of the defence policy of the Labour Party. If I may say so with respect, I am much more competent to undertake that task than is the right hon. Gentleman. I must correct myself—I refer only to the official policy of the Labour Party. However competent an orator I may regard myself, I have not yet reached the stage of being able to interpret with clarity what is called the unofficial defence policy of the Labour Party.
  This so-called defence debate has been a mixture of foreign affairs and defence, including the conventional sphere and the future of the nuclear sphere, and perhaps the most significant feature of it has been confusion. This is not an economic issue, except in part. It is not related to rents or houses or any of the domestic problems which concern us all and which acutely divide us from hon. Members opposite. In situations such as those, we naturally expect division. In the case of defence, however, it seems to me that the difference between the official defence policy of the Labour Party and the defence policy of the Government is less acute than the differences related to defence in the Labour Party itself.
  Of course, that emerges from a concatenation of circumstances over which we have more or less control—rather less than more. Much of it derives from very natural emotion, and some of it derives from the propaganda of influential people outside the House. I think of superannuated philosophers like Bertrand Russell, with whose philosophical writings I am more or less familiar, as I was, when young, with the philosophy of Immanuel Kant, Descartes, Hume, Locke, and others. No doubt this is all familiar ground. There is also that famous playwright, J. B. Priestley, who, undoubtedly, has made a contribution to our national culture, but who, in the sphere of politics, is about as woolly as any person I have known since the days of Ramsay MacDonald.
  It is a simple fact, if I may draw the attention of hon. Members to it, that we

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  are much more disposed to accept the opinions of those people than to accept the views of, for example, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) and for Ladywood (Mr. V. Yates). I am just as ready to accept their views as I am to accept the views of those outside. They are just as competent to express opinions on defence or foreign policy.
  Let us now direct our attention to what was intended to be the subject of this debate—defence. It is interlocked with foreign affairs, and that is inevitable. One impinges on the other. There is general agreement on both sides of the House with the declaration made by the Prime Minister in that remarkable speech he made in the course of our foreign affairs debate—the desire for summit talks, the desire for disarmament, the desire for peace. If I may say so, there is also general agreement with the declaration made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition in what I thought was an excellent and forthright speech.
  If I believed that the renunciation of nuclear weapons would promote peace, I would gladly support it, but let us take note of the fact that the quarrel, if, indeed, there is one, is between the most powerful Communist nation in the world, Soviet Russia, and the most powerful capitalist nation in the world, namely, the United States of America. If that quarrel should, unhappily—and God forbid that it should—lead to a major conflict, then, whether we like it or not, whether we have conventional weapons, nuclear weapons, or no weapons at all, or whether we have unilateral disarmament, we shall be involved. There is no escape from it. Our choice, in the event of a global conflict, is either to build up a defence mechanism—for what it may be worth, in view of our very limited financial resources—or to rely entirely and exclusively on the United States of America. That is the choice.
  If there is any need for further evidence of the confusion that now exists, I would draw attention to the demands made in certain quarters of the House, arising from doubts about the efficacy and efficiency of the proposed missiles. My interpretation of that is that there are some people who are so dissatisfied and doubtful about the new missiles that they want
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  bigger and better ones. I wish that they would be explicit about it, and let us know where they stand.
  What is the position about these missiles? I am a little doubtful about them myself. I think that in his White Paper the Minister of Defence has been indulging in undue optimism about them. At any rate, we shall not get them for some time—if at all. When we get them, they will have to be tested either preceding their arrival in this country, or here—but it does not matter because, after all, one has to take risk of an explosion when building up a defence mechanism—and then find that they are completely obsolescent. Then what do we propose? To spend more money to produce a very much more efficient missile?
  What are the facts? Let us not run away from them. In yesterday's debate, several right hon. and hon. Gentlemen referred to the statement made by the Minister of Defence in the White Paper, and in his speech, on the use of nuclear weapons in the event of our failure to resist a conventional attack by Soviet. Russia. One might have thought that this was an original idea, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) said, in what I thought was a superb analysis of the defence position, this was not only said by Field Marshal Montgomery but the declared policy of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation over the last few years.
  It was inevitable. Why? Because we have failed, not only in the past six years, but even in the time of the Labour Government, when I was Minister of Defence and Secretary of State for War, to build up an effective conventional military organisation. Here, perhaps, I may be allowed to digress a little. I said a few moments ago that, in one way and another, this Government had spent£12,000 million. Although the Labour Government prepared the rearmament programme costing£4,700 million, for which I was, with others, politically responsible, we never spent more than£800 million a year on defence.
  It was a Conservative Government that began to spend the money that we proposed in our time, but we were inhibited and hampered all the time by the need for economy, and also, to a large extent, by the policy of our own party. That was understandable. We had only just

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  emerged from a ghastly and destructive war that had exhausted our resources. There was, naturally, therefore, no desire on anyone's part to spend large sums of money on defence. That is the excuse, if excuse is needed.
  What does all this talk by the Secretary of State for Air about conventional forces, nuclear forces and the rest, amount to? The fact is that no matter what they are, it is impossible to build a conventional force and deploy a conventional strategy capable of dealing with the Russians in any way at all. That is the truth. There was some cross-talk between my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) and the Secretary of State for Air about Russian submarines. I believe that when I was in office, I made a statement from the Treasury Bench that the Russians had 400 submarines. Quite frankly, I did not count them myself. I had to rely on what I was told.
  That reminds me that, perhaps, I should say this. I am one of the few people now in this House—and I hope that my hon. Friends will forgive me for saying this—who is not in the confidence of military experts. Not a single general, not a single air marshal, not a single admiral, not a single military correspondent of The Times—and I am one of the "top people"—or of any of the reputable organs of the Press ever comes to me and says, "I know that you are interested in defence. Would you like to have some information?" Not a bit of it. I have to rely on my own resources. One must be careful of the information one receives from certain quarters.
  As I said, we were told, at the time, about 400 submarines, and now we are told that the Russians have 500. No doubt, some of them are very effective, and some of them would be of no use at all, quite obsolescent. What is the good of all this talk about building up convential forces? We shall never reach that grandiose scale in submarines, aircraft, missiles or ballistic rockets, because of our financial resources.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: We cannot afford it.
  Mr. Shinwell: Whether we like it or not—I do not care very much for it my
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  self, I am bound to say—we must rely, I do not say exclusively, but to a large extent, on the military power of the United States. It is deplorable that it should be so, all the more deplorable having regard to one feature in the debate which I dislike most intensely, the denigration of our own country. There was far too much of it yesterday, from both sides of the House. Hon. Members say, "We cannot do this and we cannot do that, and, therefore, we are no longer of any consequence."
  There was a remarkable journalistic adventure the other day by Mr. Joseph Alsop, in the New York Herald Tribune. He directed attention, as he thought, to the serious deterioration of this country; Britain no longer counted as a Power. Even my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley yesterday, much to my regret—I thought it quite superfluous to say it and quite unjustified—said that we tried to become a great Power. The fact is that we are a great Power.
  Does it matter that we have not got 500 submarines or all the missiles and ballistic rockets and huge conventional forces? Does that matter? We do count in the world, as, indeed, we counted at the time of Korea, because we were able to make a modest contribution in the Commonwealth Division at a time of considerable emergency. We can make our contribution now. But let us not brag about the Thor missile, a few rocket bases, and the aircraft that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State spoke about with such elation and enthusiasm. I could cast doubts upon his figures, but what is the use?—if it does him any good, let him enjoy himself in the conviction that we have got what we ought to have. The fact is that we have not got as much as we should like to have, and it is quite impossible ever to have as much as we should like, simply because the country cannot afford it.
  We must, accordingly, accept the Anglo-American alliance, and we must do everything we possibly can to prevent an emergency, to try to escape from the crisis and to inject some common sense and sanity into this crazy and disordered world. How is it to be done? We must approach the Russians. I was very amused about a statement made from this side—I am

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  amused also by statements made from the benches opposite from time to time—about the attitude of the Russians. One of my hon. Friends said, I think, that the Russians will be very disturbed if we ask for a Summit Conference and they know that we have constructed some missile bases. Indeed, I think that the Soviet Press Agency, the other day, regarded it as an unfriendly act.
  That really takes the biscuit, when one remembers that only recently the Russians had another test, a really gigantic one this time, equivalent to 1 million tons of T.N.T. They are bragging about their ballistic missiles; they even threaten this country and say, "If you are not careful we will use our rockets". They have everything, yet it is, apparently, regarded as an unfriendly act that we should have a few missiles—missiles which, by the way, my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) said yesterday, and which my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) said, were not very good, anyhow. What nonsense is this! Let us be realistic about the whole position.
  I have two suggestions to make. I shall be very serious about it. One of the failures of the Government has been their refusal, their stubborn attitude, their obtuseness and obduracy, in relation to a more effective co-ordination of the Service Departments—I shall not call it "integration". Not long ago, the Prime Minister promised that something would be done. Very little has been done. There are far too many right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Front Bench. I know that when we become the Labour Government my words will not be altogether acceptable, because there are a few candidates for those jobs. Incidentally, I am not one of them. But, of course, one never can tell. If my colleagues should find themselves in a situation of considerable difficulty and in an emergency they want to call upon my services, I will give it my sympathetic consideration.
  I did something about integration in a very modest fashion when I was Minister of Defence. I believed it to be a matter of major importance. I was not there long enough; that was not my fault. What has been done since? As I said, there have been seven Ministers of Defence, including a famous general. I
  582
  mean no disrespect to Lord Alexander of Tunis, but his appointment, in my judgment, was one of the worst. One must never put a military man in a job like that. It is all right to appoint a second-lieutenant or a brigadier, but to put somebody in that office who is the equivalent of the chiefs-of-staff is no good at all. He must be able to talk to them. Sometimes one has to speak to them in language they understand—language that I could not use here, for obvious reasons.
  The Minister of Defence is regarded as a tough guy. [Laughter.] Why should I not use that expression? We have the Anglo-American alliance. Why does the Minister of Defence not say, "I am going to have no more of this nonsense. I intend to cut out a lot of the dead wood"? Incidentally let him cut out the Ministry of Supply. Give the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Supply another job. Make him Chancellor of the Duchy, Chairman of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, or Chairman of the Kitchen Committee—something of that sort. Why trouble ourselves with the burden of the Ministry of Supply, when its research activities could be transferred to the appropriate Departments and concentrated in the Ministry of Defence? I want to see money spent on research, even in the military sphere, because, in the long run, it makes its impact upon our civilian life. That is my first suggestion. I should like to elaborate upon it, but I must stop.
  My second suggestion is a more difficult one. I have spoken about the official policy of the Labour Party. If anybody doubts it, for the purposes of accuracy, I have the composite resolution of the Labour Party Conference here. [An HON. MEMBER: "Read it out."] I hate to read these things. It is all there on the record, and nobody knows about it better than my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West and my hon. Friend the Member for Ladywood. They were overwhelmingly defeated at the Labour Party Conference. Why do they not accept their defeat in a democratic fashion? They can rise again at some time. I have had to do it myself. I have been defeated over and over again, but I refused to accept the knock-out, even a technical knock-out.
  Mr. Victor Yates: Will my right hon. Friend allow me—
  Mr. Shinwell: Yes, certainly.
  Mr. Yates: My right hon. Friend must be aware that an agreement to install missile bases in this country was not before the Labour Party Conference. That is an issue entirely separate, which we have been discussing in this debate. It has not been debated there, and it would be interesting to hear what the Labour Party Conference would have to say.
  Mr. Shinwell: I will have to see about it. Obviously, if there was not a decision about the construction of missile bases, if the Labour Party Conference did not say, "You must not construct missile bases"—
  An Hon. Member: Oh, Manny!
  Mr. Shinwell: Note our intimacy—despite our differences. If the Labour Party Conference did not supply a negative answer because the subject was not before it, and, conversely, did not supply an affirmative answer, I should like to know how this decision was reached that we should oppose the construction of missile bases and how certain people manage to inject it into official Labour Party policy. It is nothing of the sort. It was merely an idea. I never heard it discussed. Nobody ever consulted me about it; but, then, they so seldom do. Let us not go into that, because I want to come to what I believe is a constructive point—at least I hope so.
  Mr. Maurice Edelman: May I ask my right hon. Friend a question on Labour Party policy, about which I regret to say there has been a certain amount of obscurity? At the Brighton Conference my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) said that the suspension of tests means the suspension of production. In other words, the Labour Party is committed by the statement on behalf of its executive to the suspension of the production of nuclear weapons. A fortiori any weapons produced after a suspension of tests would be produced contrary to the decision of the Labour Party Conference.
  Mr. Shinwell: I am extremely sorry, but that will not wash at all. I have the appropriate reference here. [HON. MEMBERS: "Read it."] The following motion was heavily defeated at the Labour Party
  584
  Conference. It was defeated by 5,800,000—I think my figures are correct—to 780,000 votes. I have not got that down here, but I think I am right. This is the relevant part of the motion:
  "Pledges the next Labour Government to take the lead by itself refusing to test, manufacture, or use nuclear weapons, and that it will appeal to the peoples of the world to follow their lead."
  Opposing it, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan)—I am sorry that I should have to make the reference in his absence, but that cannot be helped—said:
  "But if you carry this resolution and follow out all its implications and do not run away from it you will send a British Foreign Secretary, whoever he may be, naked into the conference chamber. Able to preach sermons, of course. He could make good sermons. But action of that sort is not necessarily the way in which you take the menace of this bomb from the world."
  There can be no doubt about what that means.
  If I may be permitted—because I must not occupy more time—I come to what I think is a reasonable suggestion. Despite the differences between the official Labour Party policy and the policy of the Government, surely it is possible in the context of the Government's declaration of its anxiety to reach the summit and to have a conference with the Russians—a decision that we applaud —to have—I am not asking for a Coalition or Council of State—consultations with the Opposition from time to time on defence matters. Why should we not be informed from time to time of the Government's intentions? After all, the majority of my hon. Friends on the Front Bench are Privy Councillors and subject to the Official Secrets Act. If there is a question of security, then they understand it. There are matters which ought to be discussed. Such discussion, I think, would be very useful in the interests of the House of Commons, in the interests of the Government and in the interests of the Opposition.
  I repeat that I am not asking for a Council of State or a Coalition, but from time to time the Minister of Defence ought to come to the Opposition or ask them to meet him and to talk these matters over. I would go further, although I know that many of my hon. Friends may not accept it. I should

  585
  have a standing committee on defence with hon. Members from both sides from time to time analysing the problem of defence in the way that my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) yesterday analysed the problem. How can one do it in the course of a debate? We are not analysing the problem. We are using a number of phrases, we are making assertions, indulging in allegations, committing acts of eloquence and oratory—as if they made very much difference—when we ought to be analysing the problem in the interest of our country. While I do not like the hackneyed phrase "Take it out of politics," in a sense that is what we ought to be trying to do. That is what I should like.
  Finally, although the Prime Minister is not present, perhaps my words can be conveyed to him. I say that modestly and without any condescension. I hope that he will try, with all the power at his command and with all the resolution he possesses, together with his undoubted courage, to expedite a meeting with the Russians. What may emerge, I cannot say. I am not too optimistic, but let us try it out. It is more preferable to go on talking than fighting. That is a far better policy. If it is true that the Russians do not want war, we do not want war, and the Americans do not want war, then the sooner we have a Summit Conference the better in order to bring peace to the peoples of all nations who are now consumed with anger, sorrow and anxiety.
  5.28 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Birch: The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) has made a robust, enjoyable and, if I may say so, a very patriotic speech, in which he has told a great many home truths. It was also a somewhat discursive speech, and I hope he will forgive me if I do not follow him in all the details he raised. But one day I hope to make a speech like his on the subject of the Ministry of Supply. I shall certainly do so provided Privy Councillors by that time are not in too bad odour to be called.
  May I start by apologising to the House for being absent yesterday? I have been away on sick leave and, due to weather trouble flying back, I arrived only in the early hours of this morning.
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  Anyone like the right hon. Gentleman and myself, in a more modest capacity, who has had something to do with defence matters must be impressed by how greatly the difficulties of judging rightly are increased by the relentless speed of the scientific applications of war. There is no precedent in history for the speed of advance even in war, still less in peace. Therefore, any observations I have to make I make with all diffidence. I could not be more acutely aware how complex are our problems or how painful are the dilemmas we face and how finely balanced the decisions must be.
  May I revert to a subject which was debated yesterday, and that is National Service. My right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) made what I thought was a notable speech on this subject in the debate on the Address. Basically, his speech was a plea for caution and for bi-partisanship. Of course, we all want to abolish National Service, but my right hon. Friend said, "Do be careful or you may damage N.A.T.O." I was glad that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence in his speech yesterday was cautious on this matter.
  I do not want to go back over all the arguments. I want to make only one comment and to draw the attention of the House to one aspect of the way this matter may develop. The recent increases in pay and allowances were, I think it is fair to say, slanted towards internal recruiting rather than towards external recruiting. All pay increases have a temporary effect, but I doubt whether this effect will be either dramatic or lasting on external recruiting.
  What happens next if we do not get the men with these increases? The logical step, following the policy which has been pursued so far, is to put in another and larger pay claim for the Services. My fear, however, is that even with a considerably larger pay claim, it might well be that we would not get all the men we needed for the Army.
  The interesting thing about the recruiting figures for the last thirty-five years or so is how constant they have been. They have, of course, varied from time to time, but they have not varied proportionately in accordance with whether pay was good or bad, and they have not varied with unemployment or over-full

  587
  employment. They have varied very little. When I was a humble Territorial in the war, I enjoyed regimental soldiering in the infantry, but a great many of my comrades in arms did not, and I doubt whether even if the pay were doubled or trebled we should induce the fellow who did not naturally like that sort of life to go in.
  If I am right in that, the danger is that we shall be left at the end of the day with two alternatives; either an expensive Army of inadequate size, or a very expensive Army based on selective service. I say "very expensive" advisedly, because once we abandon the principle of universality the point will be put, and put with force, that a man selected to serve must be given the rate for the job and not a lower rate of pay.
  That is all I wanted to say on the subject of National Service. I should like now to try, as the right hon. Member for Easington said we should, to analyse dispassionately our position as a nuclear power. I make it clear at the outset that I am not advocating any immediate change in policy. It is curious in some ways in this House how little dispassionate argument there has been about where our true national interest lies. There have been plenty of pacifist arguments, and those I respect. There have been plenty of fellow-travelling arguments, and those I do not respect, but there has been very little argument about where the real national interest lies.
  Lord Attlee decided in secret to make the atom bomb, and when he announced that decision it was accepted by the House. My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford Sir W. Churchill) decided and announced that he would make the hydrogen bomb. That decision, at least as far as the official Opposition was concerned, was accepted and, as far as I know—although I have found some difficulty in all this—it still is accepted.
  We have had the ludricous suggestion that we must not have any tests. It is said that we must have the deterrent but that it must be inefficient. That is one of those compromises that are reached by the process which the Leader of the Opposition describes as "sitting round a table", a compromise devoid of principle, of policy and of sense. As the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) made clear, he is, I understand, a
  588
  strong bomb man. He said that we could not renounce the manufacture of the bomb and still shelter under an ally who was making it. During the whole time that the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale was in power, we were sheltering under the atom bombs of the Americans and the right hon. Gentleman managed to sustain that position. I suspect that he rather fancies himself as a bomb rattler one day in the future.
  All this time, the scientific development has been going on and we are approaching the situation—I do not suppose we have got there yet—when there will be an intercontinental ballistic missile with an atomic warhead. When that situation arises, in a nuclear war mutual destruction is overwhelmingly probable.
  What are the real lessons to be derived from this? In paragraph 1 of the White Paper, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence says that the world
  "is poised between the hope of total peace and the fear of total war."
  I concede that the neatness of the antithesis must have been irresistible, but it is not a true antithesis. Both total peace and total war are very unlikely, and of the two I would say that total peace is the more unlikely. After all, total peace would mean the immediate coming of the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and of that I see no certain sign at present.
  Total war seems to me to be also extraordinarily unlikely. What aggressor, however mad he might be, would start a nuclear war without some calculation of profit, and what profit can there be in such a war as that? The true answer was, I think, given by my right hon. Friend in paragraph 22 of the White Paper in which he says—I entirely agree with him—that the Russians have in no way given up their desire and intention to dominate the world but, blocked as they are from the frontal advance by the deterrent, they are seeking more circuitous means—internal subversion, economic penetration and, in the words of the White Paper,
  "where the risks to themselves are not too great, indirect military action."
  That, surely, is exactly what has been happening since the war, is happening now and will go on happening in the future.

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  In such a situation, to play our part and to keep our end up, what we need are good conventional forces, a viable economy and the ability to lend and invest in the Commonwealth and all over the world. This, of course, depends upon the deterrent, and a valid deterrent, being in Western hands. Therefore, I am certain that Lord Attlee was right to give the Americans bomber bases. I am equally certain that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is right to give the Americans missile bases.
  I agree with the right hon. Member for Easington in this. What gales of laughter must be blowing through the Kremlin at the thought of the leaders of the Free World being badgered and harried to go to a conference, the only conditions being that they should do things which weaken themselves. It makes no sense at all. As I say, the deterrent must be in being.
  That leaves open the question of our own participation, what it should be and whether we should share in the nuclear deterrent.
  The pace is a pretty hot one. It is not easy for someone in a private station to be sure about figures, but I hope that those I give are approximately right. At present, the United States is spending something like£2,350 million, not dollars, on missiles alone—over 50 per cent. more than our total expenditure on defence. And the pace is not very likely to slacken. People will invent countermeasures, then there will be a counter-counter-measure, and again a counter-counter-counter-measure and so on, and each new thing that is invented always costs more than the previous invention. It is a costly business.
  The Minister of Defence gave some general indication of what it costs in paragraph 35 of the White Paper. I do not know what is included in that paragraph, but as the House will be aware, weapons are paid for by the Services only when they are delivered. Therefore, the initial capital expenditure on the accumulation of fissile materials, for example, would come on the Atomic Energy Authority Vote. Beyond that, there is one other aspect of the cost which I think is of great importance. That is the number of our very best scientists who are locked up in these projects. Let the House think what it might mean to
  590
  this country if we could release some of them and get the developments flowing from Zeta growing more rapidly.
  My fear throughout all this has been that by indulging too much in our ambitions we shall lose the attainable. One of the greatest lessons of Suez was that after four days of tin-pot police action the£was in danger. In our hand we still held the hydrogen atomic ace, unplayed and unplayable. Therefore, I believe that there is on grounds of economics and also on grounds of grand strategy some case for us anyway to look critically at what we are doing in this matter.
  There are, on the other hand, very strong arguments indeed on the other side which I do not minimise. The strongest of them in my opinion—the one which was given most prominence by the Prime Minister—was the argument that if we step down from the nuclear club we may lose our prestige or our influence. That is a very strong argument. Then there is the argument that we will lose influence with America. Our influence with America has its ups and downs. I would guess at the moment that it was on one of its ups, but I do not believe that the ups and downs of our influence with America can really be correlated with our advance as a nuclear Power. I do not think that they really have very much to do with it.
  There is also the argument, which I see men of honour putting forward with great strength, that if we do not have our own nuclear deterrent we are depending entirely upon the United States. I would say to them that the nuclear deterrent, presumably, is aimed at Russia, and that surely the one thing that we all agree upon is that there is no question of any sort whatever of this country having a private war with Russia. Our strategy and that of the Americans are indissolubly mixed up in so far as we stand together against the Russians. As to our independent action in other parts of the world, I believe that the one thing really needed to give us independence is solvency rather than nuclear weapons.
  It is a finely-balanced argument, and I do not pretend that I know the answer. I advocate no change of policy at the present time. Of course, if we could get nuclear disarmament the whole dilemma

  591
  would go. But it is difficult really to believe that we shall get it. We all hope and pray for it and must go on trying for it, but what stops it is that the Russians will never agree to any scheme of disarmament which does not leave them free to dominate the world; and to that no man who believes in Western civilisation, no honourable man, can agree. Therefore, until we get that disarmament we must live in this world of nuclear weapons and must contemplate the possibility of fourth or fifth or sixth Powers having these weapons.
  I believe it is absolutely vital that the leaders of the West should come far more closely together in all this matter, that their thinking should be deeper, and that their strategy should be better co-ordinated; and I believe it is to those ends that the efforts of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and his colleagues are devoted.
  5.45 p.m.
  The Rev. Llywelyn Williams: The right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) has put forward a very powerful case for the point of view which he holds. I find myself in such fundamental disagreement with that point of view that there would be very little point in my pursuing in a debating way some of the issues which he raised. I should say at the outset of my speech that what I have to say is more in the nature of a personal statement than anything else. I do not commit anyone except myself to the point of view which I intend to adduce.
  I do not speak as a member of any group inside or outside this House which concerns itself with the matters that we have been discussing today, and by no stretch of imagination could I be described as a joiner-up of movements. I speak purely in my personal capacity. I wish to start with what I would regard as a self-evident and indeed unchallengeable axiom. It is that there is no defence at all, using that word in its strict literal sense, in nuclear war. Many years ago, the late Earl Baldwin said that the bomber would always get through, and what was true then is equally true, and indeed more true, today.
  I presume that that is why all the weapons which are discussed in the White Paper on defence are weapons of attack
  592
  and aggression, and that I presume would also explain why Civil Defence has to be content with one short paragraph, paragraph 52, made up of nine lines. The word "defence" in its modern context is, therefore, a complete misnomer. My case is that there is an urgent need for a reassessment of what is called the defence situation, and on four grounds. The first is political, the second financial or economic, the third military and the fourth moral.
  The whole political basis of the White Paper, with its references to alliances, pacts and agreements, is that there is one potential enemy, one threatening force—Communist Russia. Very few people in Britain have not been indoctrinated with that belief. Openly or tacitly, this seems to be accepted in all speeches made by politicians, in all pacts and alliances, and in all conferences which politicians attend. It is about time we stopped to examine this assumption, this presupposition, by which our thinking has been conditioned for so long.
  For myself, I refuse to accept this as a necessarily established fact in a blind and slavish way. The Russian leaders cannot, and I think do not any longer—even presuming they did in the past—cherish the illusion that Communism can be established by military aggression. Stated simply, perhaps over-simply. I concede that Russia's basic fears on the political level are, first, a rearmed Germany and, secondly, a United States of America which cannot readily accept the principle of co-existence. I wish there was more evidence that people in the United States of America could adjust their thinking more to the hard fact of co-existence.
  No one should deduce from this that I, of all people in the House, am enamoured of the Communist system. I have no illusions about Russia or Communism. What I refuse to do is to continue mechanically, almost robot-like as once I may have done, to think in terms of Russia as a Power or system which sooner or later will, indeed must, initiate an aggressive war. That is why I believe our thinking should begin to move away—I do not put it stronger than that—from the rigid conception of seeking security in existing military and political alliances such as the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, the Bag-

  593
  dad Pact, and the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation.
  The second need is for an economic reassessment. The Defence White Paper refers to the estimated cost of defence expenditure for 1958–59 as being over£1,400 million. This is a tremendous sum of money. Indeed, it has been the average military expenditure of this country for some years. References have been made during the last hour or so to prove this point.
  No one in the House would deny that untold millions of these sums have been spent, in the very nature of things, on what today can only be described as junk—outdated, outmoded, useless junk—because in this crazy arms race yesteryear's weapons are useless in this year's context. That is inevitable. When I think of the hospitals we could have built with just a few of those millions, I become really despondent. With all our recurring financial and economic difficulties, with all the great developments which should now be proceeding apace in our social services, does anyone suggest that this continuing, fantastic military expenditure can be justified any longer on economic grounds?
  If I may be permitted an analogy, David going out to meet Goliath, overwhelmed and overburdened by Saul's military equipment, was a ludicrous figure and was continually tripping over himself. Britain can more successfully meet the challenge of Russia in other ways than by the crude and crippling militaristic ones. Why can we not realise how foolish a figure we cut in trying to keep up with America and Russia in the possession of nuclear weapons and inter-continental ballistic missiles? We are not—we can no longer be—a first-class military Power. In that sense, and in that sense only, we have had our day, we have ceased to be.
  I do not minimise the difficulty or the agony for some people in facing that realisation, but life, whether we like it or not, is a series of adjustments, and the failures in life are those who either refuse or fail to make the necessary and the right adjustments at the right time. The Minister of Defence himself, acting for the Government, has had to make a number of painful adjustments in the Armed Forces, despite the objections of sentiment and tradition, both of which are powerful factors in our British life.
  594
  I hope sincerely that both parties in the House will one day, sooner, I hope, than later, officially make the great, far-reaching adjustment and consequential decision for which I am now pleading.
  Does this mean, as the Prime Minister said the other day and as my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) has said on more than one occasion, that we would be completely dependent on the United States of America and would pathetically gather together under the shelter of the United States' nuclear umbrella? I do not think so, for two reasons. Firstly, if we unilaterally—that is a tripping word for politicians, is it not?—abjure the manufacture, use and testing of all these weapons of mass destruction, for assuredly that is what they are, and if we were to establish beyond any per-adventure that there were no rocket bases in this country, no hydrogen or nuclear bombs here in Britain or in any of our overseas possessions, what earthly purpose could there be in Russia obliterating this island? In the circumstances I have outlined, we would not need the protective umbrella of the United States of America or of any other country.
  If the bomber and the missile must get through, and we all agree that this is true, and if America and Russia are at war and there are American nuclear weapons positioned in this island, how can our people be protected against indescribable destruction? Or if, instead, a lesser evil were to follow—I call it a lesser evil for obvious reasons—and we were occupied by Russian troops, what then would be the position? I say with all the sincerity at my command that I am seeking to be realistic and to face the logical consequences of the attitude which I am advocating and which I think we should take. I definitely do not underestimate the awful consequences of such an occupation, but it would be better than an island completely ruined, devastated beyond repair.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: Disgraceful.
  The Rev. Ll. Williams: I have some slight acquaintance with life in a Communist-dominated country, East Germany. I do not minimise the suffering, mental, physical and spiritual, of those who care for freedom and democracy and who live in such a country.

  595
  But life can still go on and people can still hope for better things. There is a finality about the charnel house which does not bear thinking about.
  Finally, I come to one other consideration, the moral consideration. I implore the House, even at this stage, to make a fresh reappraisal of the moral implications of the Defence White Paper. I speak in no superior moral sense to anyone in the House. I am all too conscious of my own selfishness and my own unworthiness to speak in that spirit. I take it for granted that in the moral sense we all speak on level terms. No one has a monopoly of sincerity, sympathy, sensitiveness, nor, indeed, of truth in this place. We must all follow what light we discern in this dark world.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), speaking in the House in a defence debate some months ago, quoted very movingly the words of the Saviour on the Cross:
  "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
  That quotation pulled me up with a jolt. I speak in no personal sense about my right hon. Friend, certainly not in an abusive or offensive spirit. He knows me well enough to know that I would not do that, but, on reflection, I feel that those words should not have been used here, because they are not applicable to us, for we do know what we are doing.
  No hon. Member does not know what the consequences of these diabolical weapons are in the mass destruction of men, women and children. It is not an exaggeration to say that an H-bomb on a crowded city will kill one million and maim millions more. Is there any situation, defensive or retaliatory, which could justify Great Britain in doing that? I cannot but express my deep conviction that there is no situation which can be envisaged in the conflicts of nations which could justify that.
  I cannot honestly claim to be an absolute pacifist in the sense of believing that physical force can never be justified in any circumstances. I believe in the United Nations and support a United Nations token armed force to undertake police action in troubled spots, such as the Egyptian—Israel border, North Africa, or other places. But one cannot police with an H-bomb, and that is the point.
  596
  In the final analysis, it boils down to this; everyone, with his hand on his heart, must be prepared to say at which point he can say "Yes" and at which point he must say "No". Speaking for myself, police action, yes; military safeguards where military personnel are in clash with insurrectionists, yes, but to nuclear weapons which increasingly from year to year baffle the imagination because of their destructive power and which can wipe out millions of people, no, no. Five years ago, it was the atom bomb. Today, it is the H-bomb. Five years hence it will be the cobalt bomb. Where can this lead but to an inferno?
  One final and saddening reflection; why is it that in these matters the scientists seem to be more concerned than the politicians? Do we politicians live in some unreal world? I cannot forget the renunciation of Professor Robert Oppenheimer, who had a major part in the manufacture of the atom bomb, but who said, "I will not touch the hydrogen bomb." Can we dismiss people like J. B. Priestley as woolly, head-in-the-cloud thinkers? We did not think so in the last war. Can we ignore the warnings of Einstein and Bertrand Russell, two thinkers whose equal we could not hope to produce in this Assembly for clear-headedness and profundity?
  I humbly beg the House, in a submission which in one sense I should have preferred not to have made, but which I have for long felt constrained to make, not to treat what I have said as the outpourings of a well-meaning but innocent idealist. I assure the House that I have spoken as I have because I believe that the White Paper is not realistic, and does not assess the national or international situation truly, and because its proposals cannot be justified politically, economically, militarily or morally.
  6.7 p.m.
  Sir James Hutchison: I would be the last to question or doubt the sincerity and beliefs of the hon. Member for Abertillery (The Rev. Ll. Williams). But I would like to tell him that I am a Scotsman, sitting for a Scottish seat, and that I remember a declaration of independence, made by my country in the fourteenth century, which went something like this:
  "Our struggle is not for wealth or privilege but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life."

  597
  That was the choice which the hon. Member laid before us today—misery, capitulation, concentration camps; or the risk of our lives. I believe that the second is the lesser of the two appalling evils.
  I would have liked to have gone even part of the way along the road with the hon. Member, but he stopped me early because he showed me that he was prepared to put a different construction on Russian intentions than I could accept. He said that he thought that the Russians had now reached a point where they recognised that the imposition of their ideology could no longer be carried out by military means.
  But it was only a short time ago that a conference of all the Communist States, with only one dissentient, Yugoslavia, reaffirmed their determination to impose upon the world the theories of Marx, Lenin and Stalin, adding, "By force if necessary". With the value which he puts on Russian intentions, and which I cannot accept, how does the hon. Member explain 175 divisions, and, more difficult to explain still—because a frightened nation might say that that number of divisions was necessary for its own protection—how does he explain 500 submarines, which could have no possible meaning but an aggressive one?
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Explain our aircraft carriers.
  Sir J. Hutchison: So long as that situation obtains, I cannot accept the possibility that we can disarm ourselves to the point which the hon. Member for Abertillery wants and be able to trust any Russian promises that we would be left without being dominated. We start with equal sincerity on different grounds.
  Out of the tangle of complications into which a defence debate of this kind leads us, I want to try to extract two themes and to offer them to the House. The first question with which I should like to deal is the vexed question of control of the strategic bomb, because it is causing great anxiety and great difficulties. I think that we have to have in our minds the possibility of three forms of attack. The first is a local eruption across a frontier by a division or two divisions, or perhaps even more, bolstered up by a charge of ill-treatment or inability to maintain order in a neighbouring State.
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  Then, there would follow the sort of Korean pattern of Russian volunteers and a few divisions would march across this frontier.
  This kind of attack, I firmly believe, can be pushed back, and would be pushed back, by conventional forces. Of course, it all depends on the strength of the attack and the number of conventional forces available. May I say, in passing, that a great deal of the debate that has been going on in the last two days has been shadow-boxing, because I believe that there is the same ultimate intention about how to meet an attack both on this side of the House and among the majority on the other side.
  I should like to quote a phrase which I heard from a highly-placed American general, who said that their policy was that there should be no over-killing. I could not have conjured up myself a better way of expressing what is, I believe, the intention. In other words, we must resist and repel an attack, but we must only do it with the forces that are necessary. Therefore, I believe that the local attack, if it is an attack of that kind, largely for probing purposes to see what reaction the West would make, can be dealt with by conventional weapons. In this set of circumstances, there is no complication as to command, because with our unified and integrated command, the power to take action immediately is already there.
  The second form of attack would be much more serious. It would be in much greater strength, and might even be accompanied by the use of tactical atomic weapons by the enemy. Once again, I believe that there should be no over-killing, but the attack has to be repelled, and it may well be, indeed it is likely to be, necessary for us to use our tactical atomic weapon, especially if it had been used against us. Here again, the question of command—though I shall be very glad to have a reply on this point—does not present a problem. I believe that the Supreme Commander in Europe already has the power to use these weapons in these circumstances; that is to say, tactical atomic weapons used in the area of the battlefield against military targets. I shall be glad if my right hon. Friend who is to reply to the debate will seek an answer on this specific question for me.

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  The third and most difficult problem of all is that of all-out war. I know that many people think that it is inevitable that, after the second type of attack, once an atomic weapon of any kind is used, it will automatically lead to the H-bomb and all-out warfare. I do not believe that that is at all necessarily so, but, in any case, even if it were so, I think we must be prepared for the lesser of these two evils. That immediately implies the use of the megaton bomb, which would mean all-out warfare, and it is the question of when that bomb is to be used that is causing so much anxiety in Europe at present.
  Obviously, it would be used with the greatest reluctance. It would be used only in extremis, but for the same reason that we insisted, as I think rightly, in having our own atomic weapons under the Government which preceded this Government. The Government under the present Earl Attlee—Mr. Attlee, as he then was—insisted on having our own weapons, because it is quite conceivable that an assessment by the United States of America of a target, or when to use or withhold the bomb, might very well he different from ours.
  That is exactly the attitude of mind of a large number of States on the Continent of Europe. They say, "You will not let us know, or agree to accept our voices and views about when you are to use your bomb, and until you are prepared so to do, we are going to have our own." We have very little reason to object to that, since it is exactly the attitude which we ourselves take.
  So we have had three nations within the last few weeks—Western Germany, Italy and France—setting up an agreement to manufacture their own nuclear weapons, and enter into research and development and the production of these weapons. That is a very retrograde step. It is retrograde in the sense that it is wasteful of skill and money. It is the exact negation of interdependence, which was the agreement come to only recently between the President of the United States and our own Prime Minister, and, I gather, adopted by the whole of N.A.T.O.
  So we have the process going backwards. It results, eventually, in the bomb getting into another set of hands, with all
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  the testing which will, no doubt, be expected and the consequence further spread of the radioactive danger. It also has a tendency to weaken the whole of Western European Union or N.A.T.O., and to drive the countries into separate foreign policies. These are exactly the things which we have been seeking so ardently to avoid for so long.
  What can be done? Is it not possible to have discussions as to what amount of say we can give to these nations in the use of the bomb? I know that in many cases there will be very little time, but is it not possible to conceive beforehand a set of circumstances in which there would be no doubt that the bomb would be used? Suppose, for example, an aggressor dropped a bomb on Paris or on London. Nobody will deny—at least among those who accept the bomb—that this would be a casus belli, presenting reason and cause for retaliation in kind.
  Dr. Barnett Stross: The hon. Gentleman, a little earlier, stated that we would only use the bomb in extremis. Now he gives a possible illustration of it. Is there, in his opinion, any other case that should make us use it, short of the illustration which he has given, namely, that we are first attacked?
  Sir J. Hutchison: There are others. I want to be quite fair about this. I take as an example the inexorable advance by, say, 100 Russian divisions across Europe, which we would be unable to contain in that situation—that sweep of troops across Europe which is not to be stopped in any other way. That would, I think, be an "extremis," and I believe that a set of circumstances could now be agreed with our allies in N.A.T.O. which would set their fears at rest and allow them to know that, in a certain set of circumstances, and then only, the bomb would be used.
  The possible other set of circumstances which, I think, could be elaborated now is where there is a little time for discussion. The trouble is that, in such a war, everything must move so fast that there is scarcely time for discussion at all, but if an inexorable advance of the kind I have given as an illustration were being held up sufficiently long for a series of representatives of the States concerned, on the highest level and armed with the

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  power to take decisions, had time to meet, I think they should meet, and that that sort of situation should be provided for.
  That still, perhaps, leaves one or two gaps about which a risk must be taken, but by having discussions of that type we could do much more to satisfy our allies and consequently avoid the duplication and waste which is going on just now, and also the separation of policies and ideas. I should like my right hon. Friend to state whether there have ever been discussions with our allies in Western European Union or N.A.T.O. in an effort to provide for circumstances in which the hydrogen bomb would he used.
  I want to turn to the second of the two themes which I want to extract from the great problem that we are discussing. I turn to the question of disengagement. This will no doubt occupy the thoughts of all those who go to the summit meeting, and it is engaging the attention and thoughts of nearly everybody who does any thinking about defence matters. The question of disengagement must be divided into two main compartments—the political and the military. I do not want to spend too much time upon the political argument, because that is more suitable to a foreign affairs debate. I want to deal with the military advantages or disadvantages.
  I understand that one of the political advantages claimed for the policy of disengagement—whether it be the Rapacki Plan or the plan put forward earlier in this House by Sir Anthony Eden—is that with it would go the reunification of Germany, with free elections. That is a sine qua non, and one of the advantages to be drawn from a disengagement plan. I wonder whether there is any evidence that Russia would agree to this. All the evidence so far is against it. But I agree that it would be a very important factor if it could be brought about.
  The other main claim is that tension would be reduced. I wonder whether that is so. What a curious fraternity of nations we should have in that zone in the centre of Europe—said to be neutral and disarmed but, as Sir Anthony Eden asked, kept disarmed and neutral by whom?—with countries like East Germany, West Germany, which is probably as conservative as we are at the moment,
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  Czechoslovakia, which appears to be quite happy with Stalinism; and, somewhere in between, Poland. Is it really the case that the possibility of tension and incidents will be reduced if we leave that enormous area open to quarrelling and friction of one kind and another? I very much doubt whether tension would be reduced; I think that it might even be increased. It would be a most suitable breeding ground for new tensions.
  Mr. John Strachey: Is the hon. Member arguing that tension would not be reduced if we disarmed people who were likely to quarrel? Surely it is an advantage to disarm them.
  Sir J. Hutchison: I do not think that tension would necessarily be reduced. People can quarrel without being armed with tanks and aeroplanes. I can see just as much possibility of trouble whether we have weapons or not. In any case, nobody has seriously suggested that there should be absolutely no weapons. These countries would have to have some weapons to keep internal order.
  Mr. Strachey: They would have as few as possible. That is the advantage.
  Sir J. Hutchison: One can have quite a row with even as few arms as possible. I am not persuaded that tension will be reduced if we create a large zone of heterogenous States with different creeds and outlooks.
  I pass rapidly to the military disadvantages, because I can see no military advantage, much as I have examined all the policies of disengagement. First, we should have no German forces. Our diminutive forces in Europe, already ridiculously small in comparison with those of Russia, would become more ridiculously small than ever. The situation would be satisfactory only if the Russian forces were drastically reduced—and I do mean drastically. We should reduce, by the German contribution, the possibilities of resistance. Secondly, we would have the disadvantage that our frontier would become the Rhine. The forward strategy upon which all the military experts rely would have to be abandoned. We should reduce our room for manœuvre to France and the Low Countries. Anyone who has studied military tactics and strategy in recent times will know the tremendous importance of

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  room for manœuvre. The faster a war moves the more important it becomes, especially in defence, and to the weaker side.
  Mr. Crossman: Is it the hon. Gentleman's view that we should get the enthusiastic support of West Germany if it were clear—as the hon. Gentleman is making it clear—that it is our aim to keep the Germans divided? I should think that that would make it absolutely certain that the West Germans would refuse to fight on our side.
  Sir J. Hutchison: I am sorry, but I have not entirely followed the hon. Member's point. I have no intention—even if my speech may have been thought to imply it—of keeping Germany disunited, but I say that we are not the least bit likely to get German unification, because Russia will not agree to it. If we did have a disengagement plan and withdrew the Western forces, minus those of Germany, to the Rhine, our forces would be left with room for manœuvre only behind the Rhine. Our room for manœuvre, so important to the weaker side, and in defence, would be gravely cut down.
  The third disadvantage would be that the military establishments already created in Germany, having cost millions of pounds to create, would have to be recreated in France. I do not believe that either the United States or ourselves would or could find the money to carry out this operation, but even if we could the fact is that the land is physically not there, unless we are prepared to cause the greatest disruption to the whole of the French economy and agriculture. The training grounds and supply depôts and airfields that we have in Germany would also have to be moved back into France.
  The fifth disadvantage would be that the early warning system, operating on the present frontiers, upon which we rely to give us hours or perhaps even precious minutes of warning would, unless some very curious and special arrangement were made, have to be drawn back also, so that the precious minutes in which we would have time to retaliate would be lost.
  The sixth disadvantage would be an economic one. What a great advantage it would be for West Germany—who is competing commercially with us very actively just now—and also Czechoslo-
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  vakia and Poland, to have no defence costs to bear. We are moving into a time of great competitive activity, and if those countries had no obligations for defence and none of the expense which it involves they would have a very great economic advantage.
  We should be handing over a no-man's-land to Russia, and as Russia alone can be the aggressor, and as the aggressor would get a flying start across no man's-land, the first rush of the Russians would carry them almost entirely across the neutralised area.
  It may sound as though I am ending upon a note of despair, but I do not want to do so. I do not think that we need despair. After all, what did we set up N.A.T.O. for? We set up N.A.T.O. after the Czechoslovakia incident to save other countries from falling into the hands of Russia and to prevent war from happening. People do not take much notice of the disasters they miss, but, in fact, we have not had a European war. If we can go on with resolution and patience I believe that we shall have no war now.
  In this matter, time is on our side; and I say that with all the evidence we have of what is going on behind the Iron Curtain. We know that there has been a great deal of unrest both in Russia and the satellite countries. Students are asking for more textbooks from the West and for more access to Western magazines and newspapers. Indeed, the Hungarian rebellion started in that way.
  Does the House think that it is possible to educate people up to a standard of intellect that can produce a Sputnik, and that such individuals will be content to have their lives, thinking and science dominated for them perpetually? I do not believe so. No tyranny has ever lasted for ever and nor will this one. In the West, we now require patience and resolution. It is only when these weaken that danger becomes redoubled.
  6.31 p.m.
  Mr. Frank Tomney: I have followed as closely as I could the involved arguments about disengagement in Central Europe advanced by the hon. Member for Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison). As the hon. Member pointed out, it is a fact of the utmost

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  gravity to Western democracies that any disengagement in Europe should not leave the forces of the West relatively weaker than they are now.
  If the Soviet Union insists that the United States—upon whom we have to depend for 90 per cent. of our defence, whether we like it or not—must leave Europe, the outlook for Western Europe will indeed be sad. I believe that the Soviet Union will not be content with anything less than that. Its objective and ultimate purpose is to destroy N.A.T.O.
  I am a great believer in deeds rather than words. In 1943, when the Russians were advancing to the Vistula and when the Poles, in defence of Warsaw, rose to overthrow the German occupying forces, the army of the Soviet Union stood immobile on the other side of the river rather than lend help to the Poles.
  Not only that—and those who are "soft" on the Russian point of view should mark this well—the "bomber boys" in this country, who were flying Lancasters and could have taken arms, food and ammunition to the Polish patriots in Warsaw, were forbidden by the Soviet High Command to land in Soviet territory to refuel. One bears those things in mind when listening to the pacifist speeches which have been made today. Although those making such speeches are entitled to their opinion, and we may respect their views, we must also allocate responsibility for these affairs, and, while hoping for peace, we must also face reality.
  Over a number of years I have been present in this Chamber when debates have taken place on White Papers and I have had to sit through them without being called. I thought that this time the same thing would happen, and I am, therefore, glad of the opportunity to take part in the debate because this White Paper has a special significance for hon. Members on this side of the House. It may be that next year the present Opposition will be the Government and responsible for policy. Therefore, the speech of the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) should not be lost upon the "watershed of wisdom" which sits on the Opposition Front Bench.
  We are now in a situation where all of us, or, at least, all who have any
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  humanity in their souls, are troubled. The pacifists do not enjoy a monopoly of humanity. We all realise what H-bomb warfare could mean. But there are some things which men value even above life, and one is freedom. Thousands of men would never permit themselves to be placed in the position of having to see their children going down on their knees and not being able to stand up for themselves as free men and women. That is the difference between us. When I was employed in a factory, during the war, I had a pacifist working next to me. His wife was in the same shop and arguments occurred. Occasionally, the woman, with a black eye, would come to me and say that she had lost the argument again. That was the length and breadth of his pacifism.
  At Brighton this year the Labour Party Conference, perhaps the most representative body of people in this country, decided by a majority of eight to one, after an interesting and detailed debate riddled with reason and passion, not to renounce Britain's right to manufacture the hydrogen bomb. The man who was more successful than anybody in winning that vote was my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) who, in what was probably the greatest speech of his career—and in very difficult circumstances, in view of his previous associations—persuaded the conference to that opinion in about half an hour. I think it incumbent on a democratic assembly such as ours to believe in the principle of majority rule.
  Mr. George Thomas: The Russians say that.
  Mr. Tomney: Yes, but our majority rule is based on sound debate and the will of the majority. In Russia, it is based on the application of force without representation by political parties. That is the essential difference which my hon. Friend misses. There is no free voice on the other side of the Iron Curtain.
  We had a situation in 1925 which was very similar. At a Labour Party Conference in Brighton the late Mr. Ernest Bevin and some responsible trade union leaders, who saw the writing on the wall by Hitler, decided to take certain action. Some people have referred to their action as a brutal assault on the late Mr. George Lansbury. Whether it was or not I do

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  not know, because I was not there. But the job had to be done, because the nation had to be shaken out of a dangerous state of apathy.
  The present situation resembles that of 1938 and 1939. It does so because we are dealing with people who, in the military, diplomatic, political and strategic spheres, are far more cunning, ruthless and unprincipled even than were those people who intended to destroy the world from Hitlerite Germany.
  We have the same kind of international picture before us now and that is why we, in the House of Commons, should get this picture clearly and firmly into perspective so that, by our wisdom in the councils of the world and our resolution, we may avoid such another final catastrophe. It is absolutely essential, with the world divided as it is into East and West, that we should let the people who may have to be our adversaries know of our resolution and our determination.
  I was not a Member of this House during 1938 and 1939, the Chamberlain era, when the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), almost alone on the Government benches in doing so, was pointing out the dangers which were about to overtake us. In those days votes were cast against the Service Estimates, which gave Hitler to think that the resolution of the British people were a great deal less than they were. We do not want to make any mistake like that in the present situation.
  If one re-reads the terms of the Yalta and Potsdam Agreements and reads the books that have been written about that period and its complicated negotiations, we see the statesmen of the West leaning over backwards to accommodate themselves to Stalin, never realising the nature of the position with which he would soon confront them. We know now that every single principle established at those conferences has been thrown into the wastepaper basket.
  Take Germany, the cardinal issue. There was to be four-Power Government which was supposed to occupy Germany and operate from Berlin as a means of unifying Germany and, in due time, converting her to a true democracy. Germany has never known a true demo-
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  cracy from the time of Bismarck. The idea was four-Power Government, eventual unification and democratic institutions.
  We found in no time at all that the Iron Curtain had come down right across the middle of Berlin and that, by one of these miracles of diplomatic machinery, the Russians were occupying a corridor on the Western side of Berlin, about 27 miles wide. Supplies going into Berlin from the West had to go through that corridor. In 1950, this corridor was shut by the Russians. A decision had to be taken by the West quickly or the German people would have been left to their fate in Berlin, with prospects of starvation.
  The decision was taken on the Floor of this House of Commons and by all the other Governments concerned: airlift into Berlin. No blood was shed, except the lives of 17 British pilots. I believe that the time-schedule allowed them was two minutes on the ground and up again. That situation lasted for about ten months before the Russians gave way and caved in on this issue. In every situation where determination has been shown the same kind of thing has happened. Let nobody doubt what Russia is doing. From 1939 onwards she has dominated Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and, in 1956, Hungary. What were the Hungarians doing? They were rioting and expressing their desire for self-determination within their own borders.
  I have been privileged this week to address a meeting, just across the road, of 250 Europeans, youngsters, every one of them a refugee from his native land. What kind of diabolical system is it that can drive men from their own firesides? What kind of system are we confronted with? That shows the necessity for the institution of N.A.T.O. and of the armaments of the West which are adding such crippling burdens and costs to our economies. Nevertheless, that is the position that we have to face, and that the Labour Party, too, will have to face again when we become the Government of the country.
  Lord Attlee, when he was Prime Minister, saw these things quite clearly. I did not always agree with him, but I admired him in many respects. Almost alone, and without even informing the other members of his Cabinet, he embarked upon the development of

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  atomic weapons. It followed as a natural corollary that once we placed our military organisation in possession of nuclear weapons of that character we had to accept the consequential rôle in world politics. Lord Attlee did that almost alone, and hid the accounts in the Treasury. Both sides of the world have now probably digested as much as they can of armaments; another bite may be fatal.
  The controversial paragraph 12 of the White Paper has given rise to the Opposition Amendment; it is a paragraph of degree. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) said yesterday that if he had the choice of living in the vicinity of an airfield from which bomber planes were patrolling with atom bombs, or of living in an area where missile bases had been installed, he would prefer the latter. If he accepts these bases he must accept the policy that follows from them.
  No nation has a monopoly of scientific, mechanical or engineering minds, and certainly not the Soviet Union. Such men arise in every nation. There is no doubt that the launching of the Russian Sputnik considerably jolted the sang froid of the American public almost to the point of panic. The establishment of the proposed missile bases is a political and not a military decision, because the missiles are obsolete to the point of operational futility. They are cumbersome in use and take a long time to fuel up.
  These weapons are here as a political decision. In 1951, when we were the Government, we were faced with exactly the same position. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, being faced with the danger of war which might have spread into a world conflagration, decided on financial policies which allocated Estimates to meet the situation. This gave rise to a state of affairs which many of us in the party did not like.
  We were told at that time that the danger period would be 1954 and 1955. Those years have gone and we are now in 1958. We have not had a world conflagration. We are now told that the danger may be 1961 or 1962.
  Mr. G. Thomas: Always two years ahead.
  Mr. Tomney: I will come to that in a moment.
  As long as the danger period is constantly being postponed by virtue of political decisions and policies, there is hope for the salvation of the world and also hope for people who believe in free democratic institutions, because all the time this is happening the Russian nation is growing to responsibility and manhood. I am told that there are 33 million people in Russia whom they call cultured. I suppose that we should call them the fitters, the turners, the millers and the carpenters who, by virtue of their industrial training, have acquired a knowledge of the technique of tools and measurement. Their thinking will not stop at the technique of tools and measurement. Their appetite will expand. Upon these 33 million people in Russia may rest a decision which will eventually save the world.
  When I first came to the House it took me eighteen months to adjust myself to the illogicality which I found in this Chamber. I came straight from the factory bench, where we knew exactly what to do, how to do it and where we were going. Here nobody seems to know what he is doing, or where he is going.
  Mr. A. E. Hunter: The only person who seems to know where he is going is my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Tomney).
  Mr. Tomney: I am saying just that! In fact, I wish I did. I try to understand all points of view, even the Russian point of view.
  I have here a cutting from the Daily Express. Hon. Members should not get any wrong ideas; I do not take that paper, but I picked it up in the Tea Room and read it. It refers to the new encyclopaedia which was introduced in Russia, where they are rewriting Russian history for the Russians. The Russians are masters of the truth, the half-truth and the quarter-truth. This is an extract:
  "While in power in Britain, from 1945 to 1951, the Labour Party attacked the working classes and prepared for a new war."
  Think of the social services, the educational services, the pensions, workmen's compensation and full employment. Yet that is what the Russians are asked to believe. Possibly they will believe it. I

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  have a Russian doctor working in my constituency in Hammersmith, in one of the largest teaching hospitals in the world, who went to tea last week with some friends and refused to eat the cakes on the table because he thought my friends were starving and that the cakes had been bought only for his benefit. What a task it is in the world when we are faced with that kind of situation.
  I will read another extract:
  "The British Labour leaders are the people who split the British and international workers' movement."
  Let us look at that. I know something about that, too. What do they mean by that? They are referring to the I.C.F.T.U. and the W.F.T.U. The I.C.F.T.U. is the International Confederation of Free Trade Unions, supported and sponsored by the French, Benelux, British and American trade unions. It is doing a job for international labour in commerce and in factories throughout the world, even as far as Japan. It was in grave danger of coming under Communist domination. Consequently, it divorced itself from the people who were causing the trouble, and a rival organisation was then started, known as the World Federation of Trade Unions. The statement made by the Russians, therefore, is again a classic example of the art of the half-truth.
  There was an even better example in an American magazine about four years ago, when Stalin died. In the magazine it said that 100,000 people in mourning had passed Stalin's coffin in so many hours. A mathematician worked it out and reached the conclusion that every one of them would have had to pass the coffin at the rate of 10·3 seconds for 100 metres, which is equal to the Olympic sprint record.
  I say these things to give the House an indication of some of the principles and the policies with which we are confronted. The Thor rocket is primarily here for the defence of the American nation. I am a great believer in paying the piper. I think that they should pay for every single item of installation and operation. These weapons will never be used. We shall have to rely upon the Victor, the Valiant and the Vulcan, which are comparable with anything which anyone else has in the world. We shall have to rely on them until such time as we can find some way out of the present impasse.
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  I come to one of the most controversial points which may engage us in the next few months—the West German Government's contribution towards the N.A.T.O. forces in Germany. In the Paris Treaties we undertook an obligation to maintain four divisions in Western Germany until the year 2,000, forty years ahead. This was an obligation entered into with the French Government who, in the main, have withdrawn all their forces and used them in Algeria.
  In the last five years the German economy has been enjoying the benefit of a protective Treasury, especially in the export markets. The Germans have a far greater accumulation of capital reserves than this country can hope to have even after the next twenty or thirty years. Despite the difficulties which may arise, I do not think there is any doubt that this contribution should fall fairly and squarely upon the shoulders of the German Federal Republic.
  We can no longer accept the decision that we must exhaust our resources, as we have been exhausting them over the last five years. There is a point from which we cannot return. The crisis which we had last September showed how finely balanced we are. I say to my right hon. and hon. Friends who may be Ministers in the next Government that on this point they must stick out for the full German contribution if Britain is to do her full share in the coming years.
  I finish as I began. There is great tension and anxiety in the world, and in Europe in particular, about the use of the H-bomb. I take second place to no one in my desire to see universal disarmament as quickly as possible, but, while such is the state of the nations that, despite their endeavours, they are unable to achieve that millenium, Great Britain must maintain defence arrangements consistent with her financial obligations. That proposition, fairly put to the British people, would be understood.
  7.1 p.m.
  Vice-Admiral John Hughes Hallett: The hon. Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Tomney) said many things with which I would agree, and with which I am sure, most of my hon. Friends would agree. I do not think that he said many things

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  with which I would disagree. I am, therefore, wondering whether or not he intends to vote for the Opposition Amendment. If he does, I do not think that it will be with any great enthusiasm. I hope, however, that he will forgive me if I do not follow him in his speech, because I do not wish to speak for long and I have a number of things to say.
  Most of us would agree that when my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence took office last year, followed, as it was, by the publication of the 1957 White Paper, our defence policy reached a turning point. That impression has been strengthened and confirmed by what he described as his progress report this year. I support the general policy entirely, and I do not at all agree with the critics who say that there are inconsistencies in it. On the contrary, the inconsistencies are to be found among its critics.
  Yesterday, as we were reminded by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), two leading national newspapers published leading articles opposing the Government's policy. One was the Daily Herald. I was delighted to hear the right hon. Gentleman dissociate himself, as I understood him, from the point of view at present being advocated by the Daily Herald. On the other hand, I was rather shocked when I studied that paper with some care today. I would defy anyone to read its front page today and realise that the right hon. Member for Belper had opposed its policy.
  As I see it, the Daily Herald is coming out in favour of unilateral nuclear disarmament and in favour of the policy that was behind the resolution that was defeated at the Labour Party's Conference at Brighton last year. The case is argued, to some extent, from the pacifist point of view. That is a point of view that we respect so long as it is sincere, but one test of its sincerity is that it should be carried to its logical conclusion. I submit that the logical conclusion to the case made by the Daily Herald, and by certain hon. Members on the Left wing of the Labour Party, would be to declare Great Britain an open country, to disarm completely, and to rely for our safety on the good will of America and on the well-known humanity of Mr. Khrushchev.
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  The Times, on the other hand, took an entirely different line. I thought that my right hon. Friend was being rather kind to The Times, when he said he did not understand their article, because it seemed to me that what it was advocating was that we should abandon nuclear weapons and invest the money saved in conventional weapons. Did one ever hear such "Blimpery" if I may call it that? After all, if the object is simply to get the largest possible number of fighting men, one might as well go to the limit, arm the soldiers with bows and arrows and send the sailors to sea in sailing ships. We should get more of them, and they would not be very much more useless than they would be if they had only conventional weapons, with no nuclear weapons behind them.
  It may be that The Times is influenced by a certain amount of what I might call liberal American thinking. That is a very alarming thought. In this country we have realised for a very long time that the deterrent is mutual, but I think that it is a comparatively new idea in America. I think that they are only just waking up to that now, and one has rather unpleasantly to speculate whether they may at some time have second thoughts about their European commitments. We can only pray that that will not be so.
  As the White Paper points out very clearly, the ultimate defence of this country and of every other country in the world lies in general disarmament, and in that alone. The way to international agreement will not lie in the direction of unilateral gestures, any more than it lay in gestures in the time of Ramsay MacDonald.
  It has always seemed to me that, in reality, the defence policy of this country, and, indeed, of any other country, is not at present quite so dependent upon complicated strategical speculation, as upon three very simple and essentially technical facts.
  The first is that the power of the hydrogen bomb is overwhelming compared with anything with which mankind has ever been armed before. The second is that, for that reason, it follows that a prolonged major war is inconceivable, at any rate for Great Britain. The third technical fact is a little different. It is simply that, with the coming of the rocket

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  age, most bombers will be replaced by ballistic missiles and most fighters by guided missiles. What the Government have had to do has been to decide upon the timing, and with the greatest respect to hon. Members who have spoken, with the greatest respect, for instance, to the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) who, I am sure, knows a great deal, I would submit that this is not a matter on which a body of laymen like ourselves, who have not access to highly secret information, can really make any useful comment—
  Mr. Crossman: Then why is the hon. and gallant Gentleman commenting?
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I am not commenting. I only say that the Government have had to decide on the timing, and I challenge criticisms of their timing when made by laymen who have no access to information of a highly secret nature. If I might hazard a guess, I would say that, if anything, the changes are coming in a little late; that, if anything. what is sometimes called by the Americans the "top brass" in the Services have, perhaps, lagged a little behind the opinion in the Services as a whole.
  In passing, I should like to ask my right hon. Friend whether he is quite satisfied that everyone working on these things in the Services is fully alive to the importance of seeking some radical defence against these terrible weapons. We have now reached the stage where production of ever more powerful bombs and ever more powerful rockets is, at most, a marginal advantage, but any nation that could find a defence against these weapons could dominate the world. I shall be told—and it may, indeed, be so—that sixty years of research may be involved before one could even begin the development of a radical defence. If that is so, it is a strong case for beginning quickly.
  While I am convinced that our main policy is sound, the way it has been executed is, perhaps, more open to criticism, albeit constructive criticism. I am sure that everyone in the House, whatever his views on these things, would like to see the same results achieved at less expense. Having said that, however, it would be most ungenerous not to pay a tribute to what Ministers have already
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  achieved. Nobody who has ever served in Whitehall can for one moment doubt the tremendous obstruction and special pleading which my right hon. Friend and his colleagues must have had to overcome even to hold costs at their present level.
  Of course, one of the weaknesses of the policy is that the run-down is spread over five years. I realise that that is inevitable, but, none the less, it has a great disadvantage in allowing the vested interests and forces of opposition to mobilise themselves. How very strange some of that opposition is when it comes from hon. Members opposite who have spent their whole political lives trying to convince the electorate that the one thing they are interested in is economies in defence expenditure. I do not know what they expected to happen when the economies started, but, of course, such economies lead to dockyards being closed, and so on. Speaking in the Navy Estimates debate last year, I suggested that there might be a little trouble with the trade union movement over these economies, and the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) interrupted me to say that I was putting up skittles only in order to knock them down. We have had quite a number to knock down.
  Mr. Mason: We do not disagree with the closing of these naval dockyards at all, if it is helping to reduce our defence expenditure and not making us more vulnerable to attack, from whatever quarter it may come. Our complaint has always been that the Government have never been prepared to find alternative employment when work dies in the industries closed down.
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: To judge from the figures which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour gave us the other day, there has been extraordinary success, and I am sure that we are deeply pleased at what has, hi fact, been achieved. However, I do not want to be destructive. I want to make two very brief, constructive suggestions of changes in organisation which I believe would lead to considerably greater economy without sacrificing anything in results.
  We are often told that there is no scope for big savings without changes in

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  policy. That is the voice of the Permanent Secretaries; it has become an article of faith in the entire Civil Service, and I believe it to be a mistaken faith. Surely there is tremendous scope for economy in the actual manner in which the money is spent. I should like to draw attention to two matters, one big and one small. In the corning year we hope to see a fall of, I think, about another 100,000 in Votes A, yet the cost of each Service Ministry is going up—not so very much, it is true, but by about£750,000.
  The second matter is a much bigger one. The Vote for the Royal Air Force is£467 million, to which one must add the Royal Air Force share of the Ministry of Supply Vote, which I should put at at least£100 million, though I may be quite wrong in that estimate. That makes£567 million all told.
  In paragraph 35 of the White Paper, we read that between 15 and 20 per cent. of the total defence expenditure goes on the deterrent. Let us call it£250 million. If one subtracts that from the Air Vote, one is left with the enormous total of over£300 million. That is what the Air Ministry must be spending on things which are neither bombers nor fighters, neither ballistic nor guided missiles, neither the radar warning system, nor research and development connected with any of those things. It certainly seems to me a great deal to be spending on Training Command, Coastal Command and Transport Command.
  In previous years, some of my hon. Friends have made some rather unkind criticisms of Admiralty expenditure. Now that we have seen the Admiralty make a magnificent start, by at any rate promising things to come in the way of economies, I feel that we might, perhaps, train our guns on the Air Ministry.
  Mr. Sandys: I wonder if I might just speak plainly to my hon. and gallant Friend. This additional money over, to which he refers—I forget what the sum was which he calculated—is not just for Training Command. It covers, of course, all the Air Forces overseas. It covers the Light Bomber Force and the Fighter Force overseas. It covers the Second Tactical Air Force on the Continent, and all sorts of things like that. It does not just go into Training Command.
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that intervention, though, with great respect to him, I feel that things must be run on fairly "Rolls Royce" lines.
  My right hon. Friend's intervention brings me, naturally, to my next proposal. Surely, the time has come for the Minister of Defence to be financially accountable to Parliament for defence expenditure on the whole. I quite realise that this means legislation, but my impression was that, when the Prime Minister spoke about this matter a year or so ago in the House, he said that his mind was not closed to it. After all, we are here dealing with the most tremendous field of public expenditure. I should have thought that Parliamentary control would be helped if political responsibility and financial accountability were vested in one and the same Minister.
  I am afraid that I have said some things which are rather dull in comparison with the flights into ethics and strategy we have had in this debate, but I should like, before I sit down, to say a word about general policy. Weapons, as we all know, are changing; but there are certain principles governing their use which do not change. Among the greatest of these principles is the need for full co-operation with one's allies. It has been truly said again and again that N.A.T.O. is more than an ordinary alliance. It is a system of collective security, the success and strength of which depends upon perfect mutual trust, a common strategical doctrine and a common tactical doctrine. That, in turn, depends upon a very high degree of integration and, indeed, possibly some degree of specialisation between the forces of all the nations concerned.
  A great deal has already been achieved. I feel that the Prime Minister is right, however, to urge that we could go further and, perhaps, even faster along these lines. It is very easy to denounce the sort of steps we are taking as a surrender of sovereignty. It is very easy, but it is very foolish, and, in my belief, very petty. After all, a little merging of one's sovereignty with one's friends is a small price to pay for security.
  There is, of course, an alternative to all this. We could withdraw from N.A.T.O. altogether. We could go into a state of armed neutrality. I believe that, now we have the hydrogen bomb,

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  from a purely military, technical point of view, that would be perfectly possible. Nevertheless, I am deeply convinced that neutrality would be a poor alternative to our present policy. But—and this is my point—it is the only alternative. There is no middle course.
  The right hon. Member for Belper yesterday talked a lot about my right hon. Friend seeing only black and white. In this matter there is only black and white. Of that I am convinced. It is fatal to enter into politcial and strategical commitments unless one is prepared to take the consequential military steps. That was the mistake Mr. Asquith made in 1911, and it cost us a million dead. That was the mistake that some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen tried so hard to make Stanley Baldwin make in the 'thirties, achieving, I am afraid, some success. That is what the Opposition policy today would do again. Let us be quite clear about it.
  In my opinion, the policy of the Opposition today would ruin N.A.T.O., because one cannot be true to an alliance and claim unilateral right at the same time to contract out of certain bases, whether it is because one thinks they would invite counter-attack or because one feels that they may embarrass one in conversations with a prospective enemy.
  Mr. de Freitas: What N.A.T.O. bases are these to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman is referring?
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I am referring to the missile bases, and I shall not be deterred by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) making the purely technical point that they do not actually come under N.A.T.O., because they are in aid of N.A.T.O.
  One cannot be true to an alliance and, at the same time, claim the right to say whether or not one would have this kind of base. It is deceitful to pay lip service to an alliance while at the same time ceaselessly inflaming public opinion about the training methods of one's principal ally. It is surely folly for a party which claims to be the alternative Government to support and commit itself to a highly controversial change in the alliance which would have the effect of excluding one of its principal members. The N.A.T.O. alliance must either be a case of one for all and all for one or
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  nothing. We must either be m and in without reservation or out.
  I have too great a respect for the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) to believe that he would really attempt, if he were Foreign Secretary, to carry out some of the policies that he advocates in the House. Let us make no mistake about one thing. If he did try to implement his policy, we should be taking a long, long step on the road to a third world war. Hon. Members must realise that in the realms of defence and threatened war compromise spells death. If hon. Members opposite are unable to support the Government in their policy, it would be far better for them to declare openly for neutrality. It would be better for the people of this country, and for our allies, who may otherwise be betrayed.
  Surely this is not a time for change or vacillation. We have travelled a long way on the road towards Western unity. In the main, we have travelled in peace. If we are to reach the goal—or, to use the popular expression, the summit—I believe that at the present moment the most valuable contribution that the British people can make is by the exercise of their traditional virtues—calm, patience, and, above all, courage.
  7.22 p.m.
  Mr. George Thomas: This is the second time I have had the privilege of following the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett). The hon. and gallant Gentleman, with his naval training, always seeks out the enemy, turns his guns on him and uses all his ammunition—or so it seems. I appreciate that the sincerity of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's convictions always shines through what he says. I do not share his convictions, but they are convictions I respect. They have been honestly given to the House, and I believe that if the House is to accept a military system as the system of defence, then what the hon. and gallant Gentleman says cannot be easily ignored.
  Everyone will agree that no issue is more important to the House than that which deals with the survival of our people. No one enters this House without realising that the defence of the realm is the major duty of any Government. All of us, whatever view we may

  621
  hold, are conscious that we are trustees of the well-being of the British people. In that rôle we have a solemn obligation, by voice and by vote, to defend the interests of the next generation. It is inevitable that there should be honest and sincere differences of conviction as to the best way of defending the British people. We have to ask ourselves whether it is, indeed, the physical and spiritual liberty of the British people with which we are concerned, or whether we are now reduced to accepting what I call the Hitlerian philosophy—that if we go down we are prepared to take the world down with us.
  The new destructive power at the disposal of modern Governments is so different in character and effect as virtually to require an entirely new way of approaching its use. These are not weapons in the ordinary sense. They are means of destruction. Even the testing of these weapons endangers friend and foe alike.
  In the brief time that I propose to take, I want to deal with some of the arguments advanced from both sides of the House. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) congratulated my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) on his speech, he described it as a patriotic speech. I hope no hon. Member will believe that in order to be patriotic one has to support the military system for the defence of these islands, for true love of country and true patriotism is surely on a much wider basis than that. My hon. Friend the Member for Abertillery (The Rev. Ll. Williams), in a most moving and eloquent speech, has already advanced certain political, economic and military considerations as to why the House ought to agree to nuclear disarmament. Everyone seems to be willing to pay lip service to the idea of nuclear disarmament by agreement. Both Front Benches are agreed that this is a means of restoring the security of these islands. Everyone also seems to agree that there is no security for Britain in nuclear strength, but only ultimate destruction if we ever have to use it. Therefore, there is no security there.
  We are anxious to obtain disarmament because security for these islands is pos-
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  sible in the nuclear age only if we disarm. The question is: are we to disarm by agreement, or are we to act unilaterally? After studying the results of disarmament conferences in recent years, I am not optimistic of agreement between the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. on disarmament. I believe that fear blinds the Pentagon as much as it blinds Moscow. Fear distorts judgment, and the tragedy of the world today is that the strongest people are the most frightened people.
  Therefore, we cannot with confidence look either to America or the Soviet Union for initiative in disarmament, because both sides are afraid to take the initial step. They believe that they will lose that temporary advantage. That means that this country—and I shall deal with the question of depending upon America for our security—as my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington and right hon. and hon. Members opposite conceded, is at present 90 per cent. dependent for its military defence upon the U.S.A. Even if that be accepted, is it not of tremendous advantage that we, by a step towards disarmament, ourselves can help to relieve the pressures of the present fears which divide the major Powers of the world? Fear is not enough for a defence policy, and upon fear is based the White Paper which the House is discussing today.
  Reference has been made to the Labour Party discussions at Brighton, in which my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) made a speech which disappointed his friends and pleased other people. There is no doubt about the temperature at that time. I never had the distinction of being what is called a "Bevanite". I never belonged to that group of my hon. Friends, although for most of the time my views coincided with theirs; but I believed in holding them when others had abandoned them. Consistency is, I know, no virtue in this House—it is a great handicap; I have only to glance at either Front Bench to realise that.
  The Labour Party was overwhelmingly in favour of ending all nuclear tests. That is of the first importance, because the whole world knows that if after a General Election, as everyone believes, there is a Labour Government, we shall unilaterally stop testing the hydrogen bomb. We shall give a unilateral lead.

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  If it be of advantage to give a unilateral lead then, why not be logical and give a unilateral lead concerning missile bases?
  Mr. Mason: We can only give a unilateral decision on the stopping of atom and hydrogen bomb tests for a specific time, hoping that the rest of the atomic Powers will follow suit. We could not specifically state that we would halt all atom and hydrogen bomb tests for ever.
  Mr. Thomas: My hon. Friend must not tempt me into the realm of prophecy. I cannot say what the Labour Party policy will be after it has suspended its tests. What I do know is that the trade union, Labour and Co-operative movements of Britain—all of them—are in favour of Britain giving a unilateral lead to stop hydrogen bomb tests at the present time, and with good reason.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Easington sneered at Earl Russell, to whom he referred as a superannuated philosopher. It is easy to jibe, but the world honours Earl Russell and he can manage without the tribute of my right hon. Friend. Surely, even people outside this House are allowed to speak on the subject on which they are master.
  What has Earl Russell said to arouse the wrath of my right hon. Friend? This is what he said at the Central Hall, at the rally when 5,000 people were willing to pay to support the demonstration. I quote:
  "The British atomic scientists who investigated the matter came to the conclusion that the Bikini explosions will have caused 50,000 cancers.
  It was interesting to reflect, said Earl Russell, that if you gave one man cancer deliberately or caused one child to be born mentally defective, you would be thought a monster; but if you caused 50,000 you were thought a great patriot."
  I am not surprised that those who want to go on with nuclear warfare are disturbed when so distinguished a philosopher warns the Government and the nation. But he is not alone. What about the scientists? Nine thousand of the leading scientists of the world, including over one hundred of our own, have warned governments and politicians that they are playing with the future of the human race.
  Mr. Patrick Maitland: Will the hon. Member say how many of these scientists are in Russia and have warned the Russian Government against playing with these tests?
  Mr. Thomas: Yes, I can do that, too. The hon. Member is very obliging to ask me a question to which I know the answer. It has been given by Mr. Khrushchev in a statement published in this country, and for this purpose, I presume, we will take his word when he says that 146 scientists in the U.S.S.R. have protested to their Government. The scientists of the world are at one in warning humanity of what is happening.
  Mr. Maitland Mr. Maitland rose—
  Mr. Thomas: The hon. Member must make his own speech.
  I want to pay a tribute to the Daily Herald for its magnificent lead, both today and yesterday, on the important question of missile bases. I find myself, to my dismay, out of step with some of my right hon. and hon. Friends on this question. Surely, a question of this magnitude is not one on which we should be mealy-mouthed or dishonest with the House or the country. This is an issue upon which the people have a right to know where we stand. I and many of my hon. Friends are irrevocably opposed to these bases being established here, either before or after talks.
  It is a little foolish for the Prime Minister to think that he can go to the summit talks and believe that the threat that he will have bases afterwards if the talks fail will have any less effect than the fact that we still have the bases. That is the weakness in the plan. The threat of missile bases altogether poisons the possibilities of peace amongst the Powers of the world.
  Therefore, I ask why these bases are to be established, and I turn to the political argument. I believe that the decision to have these bases was taken when the Prime Minister had his Bermuda talks. I believe that he betrayed us then by agreeing to these bases being established in this country. He has conceded the philosophy of Mr Dulles of massive retaliation. There was a shudder of horror in this country when Mr. Dulles' philosophy of massive retaliation was first unleased upon the world.

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  I believe that these missile bases—and this is a political argument rather than a moral one—are to be established not for the defence of these islands so much as for the defence of the United States. I verily believe that the United States, by seeking these bases far from her own shores, is watching her own military interests. I understand the military argument, but I cannot for the life of me understand our people endangering these islands. These bases will immediately make us more vulnerable, a more likely target, and more certain to be involved in a nuclear war, and they will be used only when fear gets out of hand.
  Who believes that these bases will be used except to anticipate and not to retaliate a nuclear attack? If ever we suffer under nuclear attack, we shall not be using these bases. We shall have been destroyed. Who will attack these islands and give room for retaliation? Consequently, even on military grounds, hon. and right hon. Members opposite ought to see that unless we be the aggressors these missile bases will never be used but will constantly endanger our own security.
  Mr. Mason: Can my hon. Friend tell me why he is making a stand this time when virtually there cannot be much difference between rocket missile bases and a nuclear-armed bomber base, particularly when we have the nuclear-armed bomber in the air all the time?
  Mr. Thomas: My hon. Friend's memory is shorter than I thought it was. Surely, the House remembers that I have always opposed the use of the hydrogen bomb and rockets. I deplore the fear that makes the Government have that hydrogen bomber in the air at the present time.
  I want to tell the House and Labour supporters throughout the country that I hope and pray that there will be a rising tide of agitation in these islands that sanity shall yet prevail.
  I hope that the Labour movement will insist that there shall be no bases here, not for the limited period until the summit talks take place but ever, in order that we shall realise, as my hon. Friend the Member for Abertillery so clearly indicated, that the well-being of our people would be far better served
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  by unilateral nuclear disarmament than by the insane fear that drives us at present.
  7.44 p.m.
  Brigadier O. L. Prior-Palmer: The hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) knows only too well that I disagree with every single word of his speech. It was more or less on the same line as every speech that he has ever delivered on the question of armaments in general. I shall be answering his speech all the way through mine, but I would say to him at the start that he is flying in the face of all the lessons of history. Before the 1914 war, we had precisely the same arguments. Lord Roberts stumped the country warning us of what was coming. "The Riddle of the Sands" was written, and the play "The Englishman's Home" was put on in London to try to bring home to people the danger which faced them, and people took no notice. The thought and philosophy of the hon. Member held sway.
  The same thing happened before the 1939 war. There was the Peace Pledge Union, the by-election in East Fulham, and Sir Stafford Cripps, who went to the workers at Eastleigh and asked them to stop making armaments—and they were building Spitfires. Because of all that, Ribbentrop wrote to Hitler that England would not fight. If Hitler had known that we intended to stand alone in the world he would have thought a second time about over-running the Low Countries.
  I know that the hon. Member for Cardiff, West says all the things that he says in complete sincerity. I am quite certain that, unlike some others in the country, he dislikes the Communist creed and system just as much as I do. I am glad to be able to say that.
  We are not debating a new policy; we are debating a progress report on the five-year plan issued last year. It is starkly realistic. It does not gloss over unpleasant facts, and it does not pander to those whose counsel contributed to putting the country in jeopardy in the past.
  If we make a comparison with the period between the two wars, I would say that we are now at the 1930s, just at the time when all the Peace Pledge Union pressure started to build up. I

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  was a soldier at the time, and I know how that pressure led to mistakes being made by our own Government. Armaments were not made as quickly, or on as large a scale as they could have been produced, for fear of public reaction.
  Those of us whose regiments went to fight against the Germans went into battle with inadequate arms, with tiny tanks against the German Mark IV, with holes in the turrets where the telescopic sights should have been and were not. I have sworn that I will do everything in my power, both in the House and outside it, to see that that does not happen again. The false doctrines of the past are now being trotted out once more.
  As to the global deterrent, out of the miasma of talk and counter-talk the thing is simple to me and as clear as crystal. The mentality of dictators being what it is, they respect strength, they detest and despise weakness and they take advantage of it whenever it is shown. I am certain that we have already reached the stage of stalemate, a stage where the American hydrogen bomber force could inflict such appallingly heavy casualties on the Soviet Union that there is not the slightest chance of the Soviet Union indulging in an all-out attack on a large scale. Equally, I believe that the Americans realise that if an attack was launched the casualties would be nearly as heavy in America.
  We have reached a stage of stalemate, and what we want and must have is disarmament. But it must be disarmament both of nuclear and of conventional weapons. It would be the most appalling folly to disarm the one weapon we have which has prevented war, and which will continue to prevent war on a large scale, and leave ourselves at the mercy of the conventional arms of the Russians, with their 200 divisions, to be brought up to 400 with their reserves, their 20,000 front-line aircraft and their 500 submarines.
  Until we can remove the cause of tension in the world it will remain. What is the basis of all this? It has often been stated clearly by the Russians themselves. Only recently, when they had a large conference with the other Communist countries, they restated that their object was conquest of the world by peaceful infiltration, by subversion and,
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  if necessary, by force. There, in that one pronouncement, is the cause of the tension throughout the world, and so long as this is their aim there are only two choices for us, the free world.
  One is to capitulate and say what I was shocked to hear one hon. Gentleman say today, that he would rather see our country overrun than that we should fight and defend ourselves. That is the alternative, to be overrun, and it is not a question, as in Eastern Germany, of living under Russian domination. It would mean, as Hitler said, the reduction of the population of this country to under 15 million, the rest being carted off to Siberia.
  Mr. Crossman: I am sure that the hon. and gallant Gentleman does not want to misinterpret my hon. Friend. My impression was that my hon. Friend was not prepared to give the order which would condemn this country to being blown to pieces by nuclear bombs, and that he would rather give the order to surrender. It seems to me that a man can conscientiously say that without being condemned as a criminal.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I was not suggesting that the hon. Gentleman was a criminal. I suggested that it shocked and horrified me to hear an hon. Gentleman suggest that he would rather see this country overrun than take the necessary action to avoid it.
  This is not to say that there may not be a change of heart one day in the Kremlin, and I will say a word on that in a minute. I must now briefly refer to the article on defence in The Times of yesterday. Normally, whether it is critical of the Government or not, this newspaper is the finest and the most balanced in the world but, whoever wrote that leading article yesterday, I find it extremely difficult to understand. The first part of the article quoted the words in the White Paper, namely:
  "… it must be well understood that, it Russia were to launch a major attack on them, even with conventional forces only'"—
  The word "major" there must not be forgotten—
  "they would have to hit back with strategic nuclear weapons.'"
  The article says, further:
  "The point to drive home is not that the nuclear deterrent is no use but that it is so

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  absolute that it has severe limitations. It is a valid deterrent only against its like—global nuclear war. It will not necessarily deter conventional aggression …"
  Why not? Does the writer of that article really believe that if the Russians know what casualties there might be in Russia if that happened—and a figure of 1,800,000 in the first two hours has been suggested—they would launch a conventional offensive?
  The article continues:
  "This does not mean that we need maintain huge conventional forces … what we require are relatively small but efficient mobile forces.."
  There we are. It is said that the bomb is not a deterrent against a conventional force and, that being so, we need only have small mobile forces. This is the sort of rubbish we heard before 1914. This is the sort of rubbish which led to the retreat from Mons, when four or five British divisions had to try to hold up German Army corps. We do not want to see that happen again.
  Mr. Wigg: Before the hon. and gallant Gentleman dismisses the leading article in The Times as rubbish, perhaps he would bear in mind that the same view is held by Mr. Kennan and Dr. Oppenheimer and. indeed, an authoritative school of thought in American military circles.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I do not agree. It has been said many times by General Norstad and General Gruenther, and although it is the policy of the Americans, I believe, to use the words of the White Paper, if we do not want war we must make it perfectly clear to the enemy that it will not pay them to wage it.
  We on this side of the House have been criticised for doing nothing about disarmament. I suggest, for the record, that the proposals we put forward at the last disarmament conference should be reiterated. They were: first, that nuclear tests were to be immediately suspended: secondly, that the production of fissile material for weapon purposes should be stopped; thirdly, that existing military stocks of fissile material should be progressively transferred to civil purposes; fourthly, that conventional armaments and military manpower should be progressively reduced, the first stage to be completed within one year; and lastly, that there should be an effective system of inspection—this was the rock on
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  which the conference foundered—instituted to verify that the agreements were being observed, together with aerial and ground inspection. That was put to the vote at the United Nations and passed by a majority of 56 to 9, with only the Soviets voting against it. And we are accused of not having made reasonable, sensible suggestions for disarmament.
  I do not believe that disarmament will come like that. I think that it is wishful thinking to believe for one moment that those vast areas east of the Urals are capable of inspection, and that the Russians will ever allow it to be done. I have been there and I know the mentality—the mentality which puts microphones in rooms and all the rest of it. So I do not believe that disarmament will happen that way.
  What I do believe is that if we hold on with our deterrents, if we keep the stalemate as it is now and postpone the possibility of a major war, there will be a change of heart in Russia. I believe that the hundreds of thousands of people there who are receiving a higher education will—indeed, as they are already beginning to do—ask for something wider, something greater, something more spiritual. I also believe that the absolute materialism will eventually be diluted and that we shall get disarmament by agreement from inside and not from outside.
  In the meantime, I must make the criticism that, although I believe we have done as well as we could have done within our limits over the various weapons, I do not believe that we are fighting the psychological aspect of the cold war with anything like the necessary vigour. I was shocked the other day when. I saw, on television, an ex-Member of this House, Mr. Woodrow Wyatt, with a microphone, interviewing students at the Sudan University. He asked them this straight question, "Which of the two systems would you prefer, the Western or the Russian?" They all answered, "The Russian." When he asked why, they replied, "Because they are the most powerful, they will destroy the West in the end and it is better to be on the winning side." He then asked them, "Did you agree with the way in which they dealt with their satellite, Hungary?" They replied. "Yes".

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  I believe that we have about three or four professors in that university. Is it right that these young people should have been so blinded by what was obviously Communist indoctrination, under the very eyes of their teachers? Are we doing nothing about this in the uncommitted countries? Is there no one who can go to them and put over the Western way of life and teach them how democracy works? There were other questions about the way the Western democracies work and they had not got the foggiest idea. It is extremely serious.
  Mr. Albert Evans: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman appreciate that most of the countries of the Middle East have a conception of the policy of this country which is based on the Suez enterprise? He must bear in mind that we have many faults to put right in the Middle East before we can expect the people there to turn towards us and away from the Soviet Union.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: These students said that they respected the Russians because they were successful with their force. Perhaps if we had been successful at Suez, they might have respected us.
  The word "disengagement" has been thrown about. I ask hon. Members to be a little careful about this word. We have seen it before. In 1939, the British Army was forced to stand back from Belgium and not allowed to go forward as we wished to the Escaut. In a "rugger" scrum, with the two front rows leaning against each other, there is not much momentum from either side and they usually stay put. If one allows a person who may be an aggressor to stand back and to get an initial impetus across no-man's-land, then he takes a great deal of stopping.
  There is another aspect. Does anybody believe that the Poles, and especially Mr. Gromulka, for example, would tolerate a withdrawal? He would be out on his neck the next morning if such a thing happened. In asking for that we are crying for the moon.
  I make the plea for a world operational command. It is no good having only a N.A.T.O. command. We have other defensive organisations—the Bagdad Pact, S.E.A.T.O., and the ring of bases round the world—but there is no co-ordination for a world plan. The time
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  has now come when we should have a proper, co-ordinating, world plan.
  8.2 p.m.
  Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: At this late hour, I want to concentrate on the single topic of the British nuclear deterrent, but I cannot resist saying one thing to the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer). If his analogy with the "rugger" scrum is right, and if he is also correct in saying that we are looking forward to a long period of stalemate, the prospect of ten years of leaning up against each other makes it seem most unlikely that some explosion will not happen! If we are facing a long period of stalemate, the position of a divided Germany is extremely dangerous, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman should not look askance at plans which can politically lessen the tension.
  I want to turn to the main subject of the debate which, as the Minister of Defence himself said, is a progress report on his "new look" strategy of last year. I want to consider the progress of the debate this year compared with that of last year. Last year, roughly speaking, there was a division in the House between those who accepted giving first priority to the British nuclear weapon and those who believed that we should not have it. There was a group of pacifists who spoke today, as they did last year, and who object in principle to having the nuclear weapon.
  There were only one or two of us who were not pacifists, but who saw military, economic and political reasons for believing that we should concentrate on conventional weapons and give up the attempt to duplicate the American deterrent. What has struck me in listening to the debate today is, firstly, that the Minister's own speech contained several changes and, secondly, that people who were unsympathetic last year thought this year that there was much more to be said for the view that giving first priority to a British deterrent might be bad not only from a moral point of view, but also from a common-sense point of view.
  I want to study first the Minister's arguments. Last year the Minister's main argument for his nuclear strategy was economic. We had a good deal of optimistic talk last year about how the new

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  look strategy was to save hundreds of million of pounds. Actually all the savings have gone to keeping the cost the same as it was last year. There has been virtually no saving and there is no prospect of saving. I did not hear a single word from the Minister to suggest that the nuclear weapon would be cheap.
  It is difficult to find out what it costs, and the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) said that he did not believe the 10 per cent. or 20 per cent. figures. I will hazard a guess, which may be confirmed by the Government, that in two years' time we shall find that the cost of the British deterrent will be more and not less than it is today.
  Perhaps we can also be told whether after the Thor we will have the British inter-continental missile and, if so, whether any calculation of the cost of competing with and duplicating the American missile in this country in the long term has been calculated.
  We have learned one thing in the last twelve months. The trouble about the nuclear deterrent is that if we have one big enough to be militarily significant, we ruin the country, and if we have one within the economic resources of the country, then it is so trivial that it impresses no great Power.
  The whole House was impressed by the speech yesterday of my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg). With some accuracy he compared the British nuclear deterrent with the American and Russian. I believe that I can remember his figures, which were that when our V-bomber fleet is complete we shall have 240 V-bombers, against a fleet of about 2,000 American bombers. Then, after that, there would be ten years more of American supersonic bombers with which we would not try to complete and that during that period we would have only third-rate obsolescent American missiles instead of British bombers.
  As an example of how to have an independent British deterrent, that is a little discouraging. Indeed, the whole idea that it can be done by a Power of our size is so much nonsense. If we produce a deterrent within our resources, it does not impress either America or Russia, and there is no prospect of our having the resources to make it big enough to be effective.
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  It is hypocrisy to have this constant talk in the House and in the White Paper about the "Western deterrent." As my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) said—and this is not the only matter on which I agree with him—there is no Western deterrent; there is only an American deterrent. To say that we must not live under its shelter is not to face the fact that we have been living under its shelter for the last ten years. There is no prospect of building a British deterrent which will take us out of that shelter.
  I deplore the theory that we can achieve military independence by building up our own H-bomber force, duplicating the American force and racing with the Americans. I should have thought that all the evidence of the last twelve months was that that could not be done. Part of the evidence is that the Minister did not pretend any more that great economies would result from his nuclear policy.
  The second argument concerns strategy. It is the argument that we must have a British deterrent because the Americans might choose the wrong targets in a third world war, and we must therefore make sure that we can choose our own target. I never took that argument seriously. Even to suggest it destroys N.A.T.O., for if each nation is to say, "We must have a weapon to make sure that we hit the right targets at the right time", how can we possibly prevent the Germans, the French and every other nation in the alliance saying, "What the British demand for themselves, we demand for ourselves"? The right to distrust the Americans cannot remain a British monopoly.
  If the basis of this policy is saying that we cannot be sure that our American allies will strike at the right time, why should anybody be sure of us? Every time Members of the Government justify that policy in that way, they are doing a grave disservice to N.A.T.O.
  There is a striking contrast in the attitude of the Foreign Secretary in the last foreign affairs debate and the attitude of the Minister of Defence. The Foreign Secretary was so careful of N.A.T.O. that he could not have an idea in his head without consulting N.A.T.O. These fellows on defence are different—they

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  decide what to do first and consult afterwards.
  One of the effects of the Defence Minister's nuclear strategy has been to disunite N.A.T.O. more than any other single factor. The decision of the British to go in for their own nuclear deterrent has undermined the unity of N.A.T.O. and has produced the deepest doubts, especially when it is combined with the withdrawals from B.A.O.R. We have made everybody on the Continent feel that the British are pulling out and trying to have a special position different from their allies in N.A.T.O.
  Therefore, the second strategic argument is invalid, firstly, because we shall never have enough nuclear weapons to drop them on our own, and, secondly, because it demoralises our allies to have the British using that sort of argument.
  So we come to the third argument. This argument was not deployed last year; it is this year's argument. It is the Prime Minister's argument, and it is just what we accused the Government of last year. Last year, in a similar debate, I said that the only argument for a British nuclear bomb was prestige. Now, apparently, the Government admit that they want the bomb in order to keep up appearances.
  Last year we were told that we were unfair and we were unjust for saying this, and we were told that there were economic and strategic reason. But I would quote the Prime Minister, when speaking on I.T.V. on Sunday night. When asked how he justified the British nuclear weapon, he replied, and these are his actual words:
  "The independent contribution gives us a better position in the world. It gives us a better position with respect to the United States. It puts us where we ought to be, in the position of a Great Power. The fact that we have it makes the United States pay a greater regard to our point of view, and that is of great importance."
  That is, at least, candid.
  We are paying about£300 million a year for being important. This is the entry payment into the nuclear club. It is a very expensive club, but we have decided that it is worth joining it, in order to prove ourselves a great Power. I will say this about it. If we have to start to prove ourselves a great Power, then that is the best proof that we have ceased
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  to be one. Those who pay to be members of a club which they cannot afford are not greatly respected by the millionaire members of it. How do we think we can be regarded as a great Power simply by paying this£300 million into the club? Whom do we think we are deceiving?
  I hope that my pacifist friends will not mind me saying this. I would like to tell the Government of one occasion when the United States were influenced by our Government. It was the famous occasion when Mr. Attlee, as he then was, flew the Atlantic to visit President Truman and stopped the use of the atomic bomb in Korea. I should like to ask the Minister a question. What was it that enabled Attlee to have that veto in the White House? Was it because we had atomic bombers on our stations in England? That fact had nothing to do with it. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why we were able to do it. It was because we had a division of troops in Korea, because we had a highly-trained and efficient conventional force in Korea, which we could pull out.
  If we now want to influence the Americans, I suggest that we should not compete with them on lines on which we cannot afford sufficient strength to be taken seriously—where they merely laugh at us. We should compete with them in those things which we can do better than they can, in things that we can have which they do not have.
  Troops to go and fight overseas never were a very strong point in the American Army. As General MacArthur once said to a member of the British Labour Party who visited him after the war:
  "I could create a great American empire with British troops. American soldiers turned into business men the day the war finished."
  How right he was!
  How anybody can suggest that we can influence Washington by our military strength when we have 240 V-bombers and 35½ H-bombs I do not understand. I suggest that there are other directions in which we could influence the Americans far more and make our influence felt far more in Washington than by this bogus pretence of being a nuclear Power. This is the first argument for abandoning the policy of giving first priority to the bomb.
  I turn to the second argument. Here is a Government which says, "We must

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  spend£300 million on the nuclear deterrent. We must afford it because it puts us where we ought to be—in the position of a great Power." But the same Government cannot afford£57 million for the British forces in Germany. Does that put us where we ought to be? It puts us in a position of incurring Germany's contempt. If the Germans think that the British cannot afford£57 million for that purpose, if they see us crawling around Europe trying to get out of our obligations, does that really give us prestige? How can a Government which squander£300 million a year on false pretensions in Washington dare to say to N.A.T.O. that they cannot afford£57 million for our troops in Europe?
  If there was a legal case for having support costs paid by the Germans I would not be so disturbed. But I have been looking up what members of this Government said in October and November, 1954. I sometimes forget how wise we on this side were at that time. I remember sitting here with my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) and asking many questions about that "generous act of British statesmanship." We all know Sir Anthony Eden got the Garter because of that generosity. He gave everything away and got nothing in return. He gave it all away in the Paris Treaties, and never bothered to ask how much it cost to liberate the Germans from occupation.
  What did the present Prime Minister say when he was Minister of Defence?
  "When the agreements are ratified the occupation will cease and Western Germany will return to freedom and sovereignty. Naturally, this means that we cannot expect the Germans to continue indefinitely to pay for our Forces. … I do not think anyone could expect that, whatever has been the agreement, the Germans should continue for long after the occupation to pay for our Forces."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th October, 1954; Vol. 531, c. 1929–32.]
  We signed our rights away. We said that we had no rights and now, after that, we try to maintain ourselves as a great Power by going round Western Europe saying that we cannot afford this£57 million, alhough we promised faithfully three years ago to keep our troops there for forty years.
  Some of us then said in this House how wrong it was, and that it would be too expensive. Some of us warned the
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  Government not to undertake obligations far beyond the resources of this country, but we were swept away by the self-same men who now talk about keeping up British prestige and keeping us a great Power. I say to the Minister that we should pay for our troops in Germany and stop giving first priority to the nuclear weapon, if the Government are thinking seriously about British prestige and British military power.
  I may be asked: what do I propose? I will tell the House. I say that if we are to have armed forces, we must face the fact that we are a part of the Western world which can never break away and achieve nuclear independence of the United States. In that case, we should concentrate on building up—and this is what I think the right hon. Member for Flint, West was cautiously suggesting—as first priority, efficient, small, mobile conventional forces and not try to compete with America as a nuclear Power. I say quite frankly that the Sandys plan of abolishing conscription is making this country totally dependent upon nuclear weapons and simultaneously impotent, and that I would rather postpone the abolition of conscription than condemn us to that.
  I would ask the House, in all seriousness, whether it is not time to think again and to consider whether the price of getting rid of National Service is not too high. I should not be prepared to criticise the Government if they postponed abolition for four or five years in order to see that we do not make ourselves hopelessly dependent on nuclear weapons in the process of doing so. I notice that my hon. Friend the Member for Ladywood (Mr. V. Yates) does not agree. I am merely putting forward my own views, as he always emphasises. Each of us has a right to put his own point of view on these matters.
  I come to the second question, which is perhaps the most difficult of all. One hon. Member opposite said, "It is not worth trying to have conventional weapons; the Russians are so overwhelmingly strong." This is a very dangerous argument. If it is true that the Russians are so overwhelmingly strong that it is not worth trying to compete or having any conventional weapons, where does it lead us? It leads us back to the view that every war must start with our

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  using the nuclear weapon. If they are as strong as all that, the thermo-nuclear bomb starts the war.
  I was appalled yesterday when my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) seemed to be committing the Labour Party to the belief that we ought to rely upon atomic tactical weapons to fill the gap between police action and a thermo-nuclear war. It only fills the gap to the extent of making it inevitable that we move from the police action into a thermo-nuclear war. The idea that we can have a sort of agreement between East and West to keep wars nice and limited to the use of tactical nuclear weapons—when those weapons are bigger than the Hiroshima bomb—is the sort of dangerous nonsense that we should have nothing to do with. That is an illusion.
  Let us face the fact that if it is true that we can resist no Russian movement without the use of nuclear weapons we are getting into the position of those mediaeval knights who dressed themselves in increasingly heavy armour until the moment came when the armour became so heavy that they fell off their horses, and the ordinary peasants in jerkins lifted them up in their load of armour and dragged them away on their drays.
  The real trouble is that we shall never give the order to let off these weapons. The order will not be given; instead appeasement will take place. If we rely solely upon nuclear weapons, each time we shall decide not to use them but to surrender. I regard the wholesale dependence upon nuclear weapons as equal to total impotence in a democracy, and above all in a group of democracies. If we have to agree together before a nuclear weapon is used, we should be clear that before we use a single Thor there will have to be weeks of negotiation, and the crisis will be over by then.
  Therefore, those who say that we are driven by necessity to rely solely upon these weapons are actually, without knowing it, becoming accomplices in producing a situation where appeasement is the only policy available to the West. It is a policy of absolute defeatism. If we are to have any military strength we should concentrate on weapons which can conceivably be used.
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  What is a nuclear weapon? It is, by definition, an unusable weapon—something that we cannot use, because nobody commits national suicide. It is very nice to make speeches in the House saying that it is better to commit national suicide than to live under Communism, but the evidence is that when the politicians come to the point the surrender takes place. [Interruption.] A man can, legitimately and morally, say, "I am not entitled to blow six million of my countrymen to pieces for the sake of my principles, because they can live again under Communism, but they cannot live again in a charnel house." I do not believe that we should say what we do not mean.
  The danger of this policy is that it is based upon threats—threats which, in our hearts, we know that we will not carry out and which I am fairly sure the Russians know we shall not carry out. Therefore, I beg the House not to commit itself to a strategy which renders us finally impotent.
  My conclusion is that, first, we should go to the summit talks and try to agree upon disengagement. Disengagement is the great hope of the world—the creation of a belt in the middle of Europe which is free both of occupation forces and of nuclear weapons. But we have to face facts. It is quite possible that the summit talks will have only a limited success, and that we shall be faced—as many hon. Members have said—with the necessity of living for ten or twelve years in a world of co-existence without peace.
  We shall all have to make up our minds what we ought to do after the summit talks. It is very easy to make resolutions about what to do before, but how are we to live after the talks? I make the suggestion—as I did last year—that the biggest single contribution to peace that we could make would be to prevent anybody else joining the nuclear club. If we could prevent any further entries to that club the chances of war would be very remote.
  How can it be done? Let us suppose that we said to the French and the Germans, "We are prepared to sign a ten-year agreement with you to rely solely upon conventional weapons. We are prepared to renounce our present nuclear weapons if you will renounce your future

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  ones, so that we can all build together a conventional army while the Americans are responsible for the nuclear shield," I am fairly sure that the French and the Germans would take such an offer extremely seriously. This would offer the possibility of ensuring that there would be one area in the world in which the people did not rely upon nuclear weapons.
  We know how passionately the West Germans hate nuclear weapons. They have had their taste of bombs. They want a small mobile conventional army. We know, on the other hand, that the French are very near producing their first nuclear weapon, and once they have produced it there will be a German or Franco-German weapon, and then a Swedish one, too. Finally, there will be an Egyptian weapon, and then there will be no hope for us.
  I cannot think of a higher contribution either to our own security, or to the peace of the world, or to the solidifying of the N.A.T.O. alliance, than a British diplomatic act which prevented a Franco-German H-bomb being produced and which thus created a unity among us in Western Europe. I hope that the Minister will study the debate very carefully and appreciate that the House has been indulging in non-party thinking. I hope that he will also realise that people have grown more and more sceptical about the value of a British nuclear weapon, and that the millions outside the House who are upset about it are not fools. Democracy is very rarely absolutely wrong. It may come to wrong conclusions as to what should be done practically, but the basic instinct of democracy is nearly always right. I believe that during the last six months the British people have become increasingly uncomfortable about the bluff of the British nuclear weapon. "It does not make sense," they feel; "it is immoral, indecent and useless."
  Public opinion is a factor politicians cannot afford to disregard. We cannot afford to prepare for wars that our people are not prepared to fight. In Germany 43 per cent. of the people have just refused to fight any war in which a nuclear weapon is used.
  Mr. Osborne: That would be equally true in regard to conventional weapons.
  Mr. Crossman: No, the answer given in Germany was confined to a war with nuclear weapons. I am only saying that this is a serious factor, and that the instinct of public opinion is usually correct. I feel that the greatest action that Britain could take would be to limit entry to the nuclear club, thereby giving a lead to Western Europe and incidentally ending the delusion that we could ever be the third nuclear Power.
  8.29 p.m.
  Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: We all enjoyed listening to the views of the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), and I agree with some of the things he said, particularly regarding conventional weapons. The hon. Gentleman belittled the size of the British bomber force of about 200 compared with America's 2,000. But I think that 200-odd bombers is a sufficiently large force to do a tremendous amount of damage—I would not criticise the force on the score of numbers. The hon. Gentleman talked about the cost of£57 million in Germany being a small amount—
  Mr. Crossman: Compared with£300 million it is.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Exactly, I have not finished. Compared with£300 million it may be said to be. But I do not think that it is. In the last three or four years, the German economy has improved enormously and Germany's currency has become hard. Britain is entitled to consider this matter, and if the hon. Gentleman thinks that£57 million is a small amount of money there are a great many people who would differ from him.
  The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), in a witty speech, made one or two constructive suggestions. In the years since the war we have had a number of White Papers, and I sympathise with the Ministers who have to write them. Obviously the Ministers are under a veil of secrecy and Members of Parliament and the country are told very little. Surely defence should have priority over everything. If we want social services or a Welfare State, or if we want to increase our standard of living, we must do something comparable in the way of defence. It must have the highest priority possible within our

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  economy. To use the hackneyed phrase, I should like to see this question lifted out of politics. The right hon. Member for Easington suggested that Privy Councillors should be taken into the confidence of the Government, but I remember that when my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) attempted to do something on similar lines, he did not get much change out of the Labour Government of the day. However, that is no reason why the idea should not be considered now. If we could have some unity in these grave matters, it would have a tremendous effect on the country.
  I find this debate the most difficult in which I have taken part since I have been in this House. We know so little and the situation is so serious. We are left completely in the dark about what to do. One does one's best, but decisions have been taken in this House which will affect future generations. I respect the opinion of all hon. Members, although I disagree violently with some. I have two young sons, and I do not advocate a policy because I think it is the clever thing to have power or whatever it may be.
  We all have our views, and we state them sincerely, but I am comforted by one thought. I remember that eight or nine years ago when I was sitting on the Opposition benches I mentioned to the then Minister of Defence, now the noble Lord, Lord Alexander, that I thought the crisis would be somewhere about 1956. Apparently, I hit the nail on the head, because the noble Lord got up in a rage and was furious that I should mention that date. I heard from other Quarters that the appreciation at that time was that trouble might be expected in 1956. That date was two years ago, and we have not had a war. Surely every year that goes by in which we avoid a conflict means that we are taking steps in the right direction.
  I do not take the view that we are getting near a war but rather that we are getting farther away. Millions have been spent on nuclear weapons all over the world, but I imagine that it is the aim and hope of everyone that this process will go into reverse. This House could put the process into reverse, but I cannot see it happening in Russia or in the
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  United States. We might make a gesture. It is suggested that we might set an example, but my view is that the Russians would ignore it and think it rather stupid. There might be a case for suspending the tests for a month or two, for a short period, but certainly not for long. The difficulty which would confront chiefs of staff, the Minister of Defence and the Secretary of State would be how to defend our country with limited money and resources.
  The hon. Member for Abertillery (The Rev. Ll. Williams) said that rather than defend the country with the nuclear deterrent he would prefer to see Russian occupation forces in Britain. That is what I understood the hon. Gentleman to say. To me, it is a ghastly thought that we should not put up any attempt to defend Britain. That is not Britain as I know it, that we should take a line which would allow Russian forces to occupy Britain. The hon. Member was obviously speaking sincerely, but he was very misguided.
  Whether we like it or not, our defences are being increasingly entrusted to the United States of America. We have to face up to that one; it is undoubtedly so. I have been in the aviation business most of my life, although I am practically out of it now, and from what I hear about guided weapons they seem to be making very slow progress. We hear about odd tests now and again. I am very doubtful about them. We shall not reach the point when guided weapons should take over defensively from manned aircraft for perhaps another six or eight years. It is that interval which worries me, say between 1960 and 1967.
  The Government say, "We must not spend more than we can afford". The Government have tried to trim their sails accordingly. The hon. Member for Coventry, East said that there had not been any great saving. The bill had remained where it was. The Forces are getting extra pay and so on, and that is something.
  Reading last year's White Paper on Defence against this year's shows me that manned aircraft have virtually been abandoned. If we are to have nuclear weapons, I should like to see—although I do not advocate it—the savings made on manned aircraft put into missiles.

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  I do not say that that is the right thing to do, but now we have not either. No money is being put into missiles and a very drastic ceiling has been put to the manned aircraft.
  The problem of the defences of the country alarms me. Whether we like it or not, although it may suit our convenience, we are undoubtedly becoming an advanced base for the United States, and we shall be so during the next two or three years. We should have a very extended programme of defence, because Britain will become a priority target. There is no question of it. We are a small packed island with masses of population living in small areas. If an attack takes place on us, it may give the United States a few hours or days—it probably will not—to prepare themselves for their own emergency. My point is that we obviously cannot afford both to have reasonable-sized conventional forces and have nuclear weapons. We have selected the latter.
  I would say something about fighter aircraft. I may be old-fashioned, but those aircraft played a tremendous part in both world wars. The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) yesterday blamed his party a little bit when he said, "What on earth did the Government do before the war in thinking about the defence of Britain?" I will tell him. They put the Hurricane and the Spitfire on the drawing board about 1932–33. Admittedly, it was a very near thing, but those two aircraft saved Britain in 1940. Whatever the Government did not do before the war, they did the thing that really mattered. I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Belper is not here.
  The only modern fighter aircraft which is coming along today as a fighter is the English Electric P.1. It will be delivered in quantity. After that there will be no more fighters. That is not so in America, where new fighters are being developed which give a performance of anything from Mach. 4 to Mach. 7, and reach nearly 4,000 miles an hour. The Russians have likewise developed modern fighters.
  Air missiles are coming along. This is an instrument of defence that we can well use in this packed kingdom. We have a good radar system. It will not stop them all, but it can do a lot from
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  the ground. The hon. Member for Coventry, East talked about the British public being uneasy—nobody is happy about this—because they see our conventional forces being run down and all these other things coming along that we are all a bit doubtful about.
  If the situation continues as at present, and if the aircraft industry is allowed to run down, the position will not be retrieved in a matter of six months as it was at the time of Korea. The industry has had its ups and down since the war, under both the Labour Government and this Government. In order to bring a fighter aircraft to perfection it is necessary to design, develop and build five or six prototypes. I understand that for missiles we require 200 prototypes. While we may know what the bill will be for the next four or five years, I think that in the future it will be very much higher than officials estimate.
  In considering our assistance from the United States, I think we ought to consider the bitterness and almost strife between the United States Air Force and the United States Army which has clouded the progress of the American missile programme. I will not go into the details, but it is well known that Nike is defending the inner perimeter of the United States and that the United States Air Force is providing the first-line interception.
  When the Korean War blew up very suddenly, hon. Members were shocked by the lack of preparedness in the Royal Air Force. The Labour Government of that time bore a great responsibility for the situation. Meteor aircraft were sent to Korea, British-built and designed, but they certainly could not catch the Russian MiG fighter, and all they did was a certain amount of morale lifting. At that time the aircraft industry was called upon to make a tremendous effort, and the Government of the day over-ordered. In the reversal of policy there was complete panic. I wonder whether we might not see a similar situation in the future; with large orders being placed and draughtsmen being taken from the motorcar industry and the shipyards for the design and construction of aircraft.
  Who has had experience of missile warfare? We are very much in the dark about it, and I do not think we should

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  gamble here to the extent to which we have gambled. Can the Minister of Defence tell us whether he has accepted the advice of the experts about it? I should like to know a little more about how we have arrived at the decision to base our defence on the nuclear deterrent on its own.
  In six years' time the Ministry of Defence may well be looking around for additional aircraft, and they will not exist. In addition, we shall have the problem of Transport Command, to which I shall refer in a few moments. Nobody can be sure that the bombardment missiles will have become practical weapons of war before the V-bombers have reached the end of their life.
  Aircraft, even military bomber aircraft, have more usefulness than have missiles. They are not limited to being a nuclear deterrent. Aircraft can drop anything from leaflets to hydrogen bombs. They can carry men. They have a much greater rôle than have missiles. Coupled with that is their value in research for civil use.
  We must agree that Britain is an ideal target, and when we look at that it is a terrifying thought. Russia, on the other hand, is an enormous country. Supposing a war were started and supposing we managed to get some hydrogen bombs to Russia, I do not think it would stop the Russians from fighting. The Russians obviously know what is going on here. Even the hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) stated on the Order Paper yesterday where some missile batteries are to be sited. I wonder how much we know about what is going on in Soviet Russia.
  Mr. de Freitas: My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) merely repeated what was in the headlines of one of the national newspapers. He knows no more about it than the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) or myself.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Many people do not always believe what they read in the newspapers, but they believe what they see on the Order Paper of the House of Commons. There is a great difference—or I hope there is. The fact is that Russia, with its long borders, offers ease of entry for the bomber, something that the Rus-
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  sians would not get if attacking Britain with conventional weapons. In that respect, therefore, the defence of Britain is easier.
  I hope that we shall look at this policy in more detail in the immediate future. It seems to be that of the Maginot line. Britain has tremendous commitments throughout the Commonwealth. We cannot move batteries of missiles about, but to some extent we can afford these conventional weapons that can be moved about to play their part. The Soviet will not expose hereself to attack by long-range missiles. If she wants to make trouble, she will make it in Africa, the Middle East or in the East Indies. It will not happen in the normal sort of place where one might expect it, in which case the new weapons will be virtually useless.
  I should like the Minister to tell us a little more about Transport Command. It was referred to yesterday. We know that twenty civil aircraft—Britannias—are on order. Can we be told tonight when the Royal Air Force will be in possession of them? It is important that we should know that date. I imagine that the R.A.F. will get them fairly soon, but we have been told very little about it. Personally, I do not think that what is being done is nearly enough. We need a large aircraft that can lift tremendous weights. We may be told that the Beverley can do that, but the Beverley has a range of only three or four hundred miles. Had we had the right equipment, the Suez operation could have been completed in twenty-four hours instead of eight days; but that is another story.
  I say tonight that Britain must not lose her head. If, over our grave problems, we can show some degree of unity amongst hon. Members of this House, it will do more good in the country and in the rest of the world than anything. Whether or not she has a deterrent, Britain is a great nation. We have much to offer the world, and I am sure that if we think these things over carefully and give a lead to the world in diplomacy and conference, we shall still hold the respect of other countries.
  8.47 p.m.
  Mr. Sidney Dye: I would not have intervened at all in this debate but for Monday's announcement of the Agreement between the United States and this country on

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  missile bases here, and the explanation given by the Minister on television, following that announcement. This is a new departure in our defence policy, and, apparently, starts with a certain number of these bases in East Anglia.
  It was earlier said that the missiles would be based all down the East Coast and in Scotland, but we are now told that they are to be concentrated in East Anglia, in Lincolnshire, and in the south-east corner of Yorkshire. Will their numbers grow in the same way as we have seen the R.A.F. stations based in East Anglia becoming thick on the ground and then, while the decline in their numbers is still small, we are to have these missile bases in our midst?
  Everybody in the area is concerned about the effect of this move. It is bound to affect the towns and the villages, the seaside resorts and the rest. Will the Government take that into consideration when dealing with the local authorities? There are already very many protests from all kinds of organisations because no prior arrangement had been made with the local authorities.
  This part of the country is still a reception area for evacuees. It seems that, in the event of war, we would see children flocking in great train loads from London and other great cities to the Eastern Counties, and there watch these ballistic missiles being launched. Surely we ought to know whether an area like Norfolk is to remain a reception area for evacuees. We ought to know what the position is to be as the years go by. Will the number of bases increase, and, if so, what will be their first effect on the locality?
  I suggest to my right hon. and hon. Friends that if their policy of withdrawal from Germany is pursued in the event of there being a Labour Government, we should consider whether the position of neutrality of Sweden could, by agreement, cover Central Europe, and whether that would then remove the necessity for having ballistic missile bases in this country If we can get agreement, as has been suggested, step by step withdrawing from Central Europe, will that not then make a big difference to the situation in Britain?
  As the hon. Gentleman the Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) has said, we are in danger of becoming purely
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  an advance base of the United States. We are likely to be the first target in any future war. The decision that the Government have taken to establish these bases in the Eastern Counties is a matter of very grave concern to the people living there. I, as one Member from the area, make my protest against it here and now. I protest most strongly against such a decision, particularly when I remember the statements made by the American Secretary of State, Mr. Dulles, which show that he and the American Government are not anxious to move towards a Summit Conference with a view to ending the cold war and bringing sanity into the world.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Gordon Touche): Mr. Strachey.
  Mr. Arthur Holt: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I should be glad to know what factors influence the Chair in deciding whether one of the two Front Bench speakers is called before 9 o'clock. This is the second debate in succession in which the Liberal voice on defence has not been heard and on this occasion, particularly, the Liberal Party having been attacked by the opening speaker for the Government—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I really cannot discuss with the hon. Gentleman why he has not been called. Mr. Strachey.
  8.52 p.m.
  Mr. John Strachey: The debate has been dominated on both days by the terrible issue—one can use no other word—of the possession and use of nuclear weapons. The detailed points, many of them very interesting and important, which hon. Members on both sides have raised have, to some extent, been dwarfed by that consideration, and one has felt that there is nothing much else worth discussing compared with that. I shall, therefore, devote what remarks I make tonight to that single issue, in its many aspects.
  The possession and use of nuclear weapons has, of course, been a matter of outstanding importance in a debate on a White Paper containing, in paragraph 12, the remarkable statements of the Minister of Defence on this very issue. I do not know what were the motives which made the right hon. Gentleman make those

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  extraordinary formulations in paragraph 12 on the nuclear weapons policy of the country. I noted that the leading article in The Times, which has been quoted a good many times in this debate, very unkindly said that the Minister put in paragraph 12 to give some "verbal stuffing" to his Paper. I think that it must have been something of that sort.
  The right hon. Gentleman was, as it were, harking back to what used to be called by Mr. Dulles the policy of negotiation from strength. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) said last week that in theory, of course, a policy of negotiation from strength is one we should all like; nobody wants to negotiate from weakness. The trouble is that, in Mr. Dulles' hands, the policy of negotiation from strength has boiled down pretty well to no negotiations and not very much strength, either.
  Therefore, it seems very odd to us that the Ministry of Defence at this time harks back to that mood and that attitude—negotiation from strength—with which was associated Mr. Dulles' other line of massive retaliation. It is the strategy of massive retaliation which was restated by the Minister in paragraph 12 in a form cruder than was ever used by Mr. Dulles. It is a remarkable feat of the Minister of Defence that he got himself rebuked for the crudity of his formulation by the Pentagon itself. He will have noted that the Pentagon, the day after publication of the White Paper, said this to the correspondent of the Observer:
  "The Pentagon has been moving away from complete reliance on massive retaliation.. a deputy Chief of Staff told me. Why are the British making the same mistake? If you are equipped only for all or nothing, then on any issue short of survival you will tend to do nothing, and the enemy knows it."
  Those are the objections which the Americans, to do them justice, have now found themselves.
  It is true when the Minister of Defence says that there is nothing new in the formulations in paragraph 12. Of course, there is nothing new in them; but the point is that most people thinking on this problem have now seen that they are a disastrous formulation of the position. The Americans, who invented this line, to do them justice, have seen that themselves. Dr. Henry Kissinger's remark-
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  able book has been quoted. It is a book which many of my hon. Friends regard as a very extreme statement of American doctrine. But even Dr. Kissinger has gone a good deal further than the Minister of Defence. I would like to read one or two words of what he says, because they are very relevant. In Chapter 5, he says:
  "Given the power of modern weapons, a nation that relies on all-out war as its chief deterrent imposes a fearful psychological handicap on itself. … The psychological equation, therefore, will almost inevitably operate against the side which can extricate itself from a situation only by the threat of all-out war."
  We should take notice of the next sentence:
  "Who can be certain that, faced with the catastrophe of all-out war, even Europe, long the keystone of our security, will seem worth the price? Strategy … can increase the willingness of policy-makers to run risks only if it can demonstrate other means of preventing amputations than the threat of suicide."
  It is strange that when American doctrine itself has gone right off this policy, the Minister of Defence comes back to it with definitely the crudest formulation of it that we have ever had.
  Of course, I know that the Minister of Defence has said, and will say—and the Prime Minister said it in his intervention yesterday, another one of those "operations rescue" which the Prime Minister has to undertake in so many of our debates now—"All we mean by paragraph 12 is that if 200 Russian divisions start one fine day rolling westwards, then we shall have to throw hydrogen bombs on them." That is postulating a hypothesis which is so remote from reality that it has very little to do with our debate. That is not how a third world war would start, if one did start. That is not the situation which we have to face. The right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) realised that and said so.
  The danger of a third world war is not suddenly 200 Russian divisions rolling westward for no particular reason. The danger of a third world war—I am not minimising it for one moment; it is something which, I think, haunts us all—is something totally different from that. It is a situation arising not from the will of this Government or the American Government or the Russian Government in Eastern Europe, but something

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  like a Hungarian rising in East Germany, or something that none of us can foresee; or it might have been Russian divisions following the Hungarians into Austria eighteen months ago—we do not know. Take the East German situation, something which would put the Russians in a position when they have to challenge our position in West Berlin—something of that sort. That is the real type of situation for which we have got to prepare.
  What the Minister of Defence has done in paragraph 12 of the White Paper is to give the impression that the only response we could make to a situation like that is to start throwing H-bombs on to, as he says, the sources of Russian power in Russia—and, of course, committing suicide in the process of doing so. Although it is true that he does not say that in so many words, one has only to look at the newspapers to see that that is the impression he has created. The Minister has to stand responsible for that. If he creates that impression, even if he does not intend it, it is something he has done and it is a most unfortunate thing to have done.
  Some of the Minister's hon. Friends have defended him on the assumption that that was what he meant. The hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth) defended him on those lines in The Times. He said that this was the right and proper thing to say, because if we say to the Russians that whenever they challenge us in any way we will start dropping H-bombs on Moscow, they know where they are and the war will never start.
  Sir J. Smyth: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that probably the reason why both world wars started was that we did not make our position absolutely clear? My right hon. Friend has made the position quite clear and, therefore, by doing so he has made war more unlikely.
  Mr. Strachey: The hon. and gallant Member has exactly repeated the argument he gave in his letter in The Times.
  As I was about to say, the objection to that argument is the objection of credibility. No one will believe that we should do that. It will not frighten the Russians by telling them that this country would instantly commit suicide by throwing
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  hydrogen bombs on Moscow if the situation arose in West Berlin. It does not frighten the Russians at all. It has the contrary effect of making people in this country feel that there really is nothing to be done. That is quite wrong. There are many things to be done. What I am putting to the Minister of Defence is that his disastrous formulation has the exactly opposite effect to what, no doubt, he perfectly sincerely meant it to have.
  Let me come back to the example of Berlin. It is a fairly obvious one that must be in all our minds. Let us try to spell out what we ought to do, and what we ought to let the Russians know, if they attempted to throw our garrison out of West Berlin. If the Russians, with conventional forces, were threatening the existence of, or actually attacking, the Western garrison in West Berlin, we should not at that first stage dream of starting to throw H-bombs on to the sources of Russian power in Russia. At that first stage, obviously, we must meet a conventional Russian aggression at a limited point with allied Western conventional forces.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: In Berlin? How?
  Mr. Strachey: In West Berlin. We are there now.
  Mr. Hughes: How can we do it?
  Mr. Strachey: Of course we can do it. If the Russians attacked the West Berlin garrison with two divisions, that garrison must defend itself. Does my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) disagree with that? Of course he does. He is a total pacifist.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne) rose—
  Mr. Strachey: I was not replying to an interjection from my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman).
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Would my right hon. Friend kindly explain his strategy by saying how we could take conventional forces right through the Russian zone into West Berlin to reinforce our garrison there?
  Mr. Strachey: I have already explained that the conventional forces are already there. My hon. Friend did not

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  know that. The Western garrison in Berlin is quite considerable.
  Suppose that a Russian attack on that garrison takes place. Of course, if it is resisted with conventional forces—[Interruption.] Would any of my hon. Friends listen for a moment?
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: We are very anxious to know.
  Mr. Strachey: The conventional forces that we have in West Berlin might be over-run as, of course, the Russians could do by raising their stakes. They could do that in two ways, either by sending in a number of divisions which we could not match, or by beginning to use tactical nuclear weapons. That would be if the Russians were determined to go on. I do not think that if they met resistance it is likely that they would do that, but let us take the worst hypothesis, that they did go on and raised their stakes and attacked with nuclear weapons or with overwhelming conventional forces—it does not matter which. Do we, even at that second stage, do what the Minister of Defence has suggested, start chucking hydrogen bombs at Moscow? Of course we do not.
  At that second stage, it would be madness to do that. But if the Russians had raised their stakes up to that point, then, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) said, we, too, must raise our stakes and we should be driven at that point to use tactical nuclear weapons. Having been driven to that, hon. Members might ask what the chances would be that the Russians would not go the whole way.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: May I—
  Mr. Strachey: No, I do not think that I ought to be asked to give way. I do not think that my hon. Friend knows a very great deal about it, and I do not see why he should again come into it.
  I suppose that my hon. Friend was about to say that at that point, having driven us to the use of tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield, it is certain that the Russians would again raise their stakes and use thermo-nuclear weapons in an all-out war. That is possible. If it happened, that would be the end of the world, but I do not think that it is certain. I think that it is quite likely
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  that at that stage the battle might stop. It is useful to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire to notice that if it is suicide for us to use thermo-nuclear weapons it is also suicide for the Russians.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: And for the Germans in Berlin.
  Mr. Strachey: It is suicide for everybody. We should be all in it together, and it would be Götterdammerung—the end of the world. My hon. Friend thinks it is nonsense.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Of course it is.
  Mr. Strachey: What we are accusing the Minister of Defence of doing is that he produces the end of the world at the first stage. He tells us, or he has implied and that has been the effect of his words to everyone, that at the very first stage we produce the end of the world. That is the very worst thing that the right hon. Gentleman could possibly have suggested if he wants to have a policy of defence for this country, precisely because it is one which people obviously cannot accept.
  What we have to do is to throw on the Russians the terrible onus of raising the stakes at each stage, and to do that we must have effective methods of resistance at each stage, and not resort to the ultimate stage of hydrogen weapons from the start. This is the fundamental criticism we have this year against the Minister of Defence's White Paper.
  What, therefore, should the Minister of Defence have said? Of course, in a great State Paper like the Defence White Paper the right hon. Gentleman could not spell it out as I have done, speaking on the Floor of the House from the opposition side, but he could have said simply that any Russian aggression must be met by the appropriate degree of resistance, sufficient to resist it when it takes place. But he should not have gone further than that in the White Paper today, and then he could have explained in his speech what he meant by that. [Laughter.] Certainly, and then the right hon. Gentleman would not have given the impression, which he has given to the world, of making the most unconvincing threat of all, the threat of committing suicide if the man annoys you. That is never really a very convincing threat.

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  After all, the Minister of Defence reiterates in this White Paper that there is no defence in the sense of actual prevention of hydrogen bomb attack on this country, so he reiterates that he lives in a glass house but insists that he will throw stones on the first provocation. That really is not a very wise thing to have done. It is not provocation of the Russians. My hon. Frienls below the Gangway need not be nervous of that. The effect of the White Paper is to produce a mood of national impotence. To go on those lines and that distance is to discourage the will to resist of this country.
  Why has the Minister of Defence done that? I do not know what his objects were, but we cannot resist the suspicion, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper said, that he neglects the conventional weapons and the intermediate stage weapons and puts no emphasis on them at all in the White Paper, because they are expensive. There is always the temptation, which seemed to come out in the Defence White Paper a year ago, and in the general approach of his Government, that, somehow or other, by an almost exclusive emphasis on the thermo-nuclear weapon, we shall get economy.
  The Minister may retort to me: am I, then, saying that we ought to spend still more on armaments? No, but I do say that, if I am faced with the alternative, I would rather go on devoting the present proportion of the national income—about 80 per cent, is it?—to defence than be faced with the terrible position of either having to do nothing or to start throwing hydrogen bombs, because that is the most ghastly position in which any British Government could put themselves.
  Now I come to the opposite argument. The Minister is much too nuclear, in our opinion. He has been met by the criticism and the view that we should not be nuclear at all. There are two versions of this argument. I am not talking about the complete pacifist case because that is a different one, which we all understand and respect and which has been restated again tonight, as it is each year in our defence debate. Short of that, there are two versions of the "Leave it all to the Americans" argument.
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  There is the version that we should leave it all to the Americans for moral reasons, because we do not like having anything to do with these ghastly weapons, as, indeed, they are. There is the economy version of that argument, that we should leave it all to the Americans because, obviously, we would save a good deal if we did so.
  Let me take those two versions. I am sorry that the spokesman of the Liberal Party was not fortunate enough to catch your eye, Sir, because I should have been very interested to hear what he had to say. As far as I can see, that party takes the moral view that we should have nothing to do with nuclear weapons and that, luckily enough, it is safe to take that line because the Americans have ample nuclear weapons. That argument does not appeal to us and I do not believe that it appeals to any other section of the House. The House is now well seized of the fact that on moral grounds—and I speak very frankly—that is a nauseating sanctimonious argument.
  Mr. S. Silverman: I want to understand how far this argument goes. If it is a nauseating argument for this country to say that we will do without hydrogen bombs, even though the Americans have them, and perhaps relying on the Americans, does it become a nauseating argument if the French or Germans say that, and is the consequence of that that all Europe must join the club?
  Mr. Strachey: If the French or anybody else said that on moral grounds they would have nothing to do with nuclear weapons and need not do so because the Americans had them and they would therefore be protected, then of course it would be nauseating. I cannot believe that my hon. Friend is adopting that argument, because he is a complete pacifist.
  Mr. Silverman: No I am not.
  Mr. Strachey: I am wrong again.
  I would go so far as to say that I would be willing, if there were no other argument for this country possessing nuclear weapons, until and unless all nuclear weapons could be abolished, to continue to devote 10 per cent. of our defence expenditure to them to avoid the sanctimonious nature of that position. I

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  should be almost willing to pay the 10 per cent., but there are very much more important arguments.
  I do not believe in the argument of prestige. I do not agree with what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) had to say on that score in his extremely thoughtful speech. There are more important arguments than that and much the most important was put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan). What he said is the essence of why, on balance—and I agree that it is a balance of considerations—it is worth our while to have our own deterrent at this period.
  My right hon. Friend said:
  "Just consider for a moment all the little nations"—
  if this country in default of general disarmament did not have a nuclear deterrent of its own—
  "running one here and one there, one running to Russia the other rushing to the U.S.A., all once more clustering under the castle wall, this castle wall, or the other castle wall, because in that situation before anything else would have happened the world would have been polarised between the Soviet Union on the one side and the U.S.A. on the other. It is against that deadly dangerous negative polarisation that we have been fighting for years. We want to have the opportunity for interposing between those two giants modifying, moderating, and mitigating influences."
  That is the real reason, in default of general disarmament, for this country possessing its own deterrent.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) said that public opinion was entirely against us on this issue, but apparently he does not study the Gallup polls. This very day a Gallup poll has been published which shows that the very large majority of the British people take the view that unless we can get rid of all nuclear weapons, on balance it is folly for us to scrap our own.
  That is the real position. It is not a division between people who are for nuclear weapons and people who are against them. It is a division between people on this side of the House who are against all nuclear weapons at all times, and the people who are giving the impression that they are only against British nuclear weapons. It is the divi-
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  sion between unilateral and multilateral disarmament, and we must say that again.
  I come now to the third argument, and it is an important one, over economy. I do not think that it mixes with the argument on morality at all, and that has been very persuasively and very strongly put from both sides of the House, by my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), by the right hon. Member for Flint, West and by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East. That is a remarkable coalition of all the talents, and it is an argument which, of course, must be very carefully looked at.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East started by saying that if only we scrapped our nuclear deterrent we could save£300 million. Let us be clear about that. It is perfectly obvious from the Defence White Paper, and we must accept the Defence Minister's figures on this, that that simply is not the case. We could save£300 million only if we scrapped all the fighter aircraft, all the bomber aircraft, all the defensive rockets, the ground-to-air rockets, all the defences of this country altogether.
  Mr. Crossman: Will my right hon. Friend allow me to make clear to him that I put the two together for the very simple reason that the White Paper states that the sole function of Fighter Command should be to defend the nuclear deterrent. It is, therefore, fair to say that the two are part of a single system, and that if we are to rely on it—let us bee perfectly fair with each other; I was not influenced about this by any morality—we would not have to have a Fighter Command to defend bases that did not exist.
  Mr. Strachey: The difficulty about that argument, as I think the Minister will very easily show, is, of course, that fighter aircraft can be used for more than one purpose, and it would mean denuding ourselves of fighter aircraft and bomber aircraft, also. It seems to me that that is quite incompatible with my hon. Friend's other argument, which is a powerful one, that we really exert our influence on the Americans, as, for example, in the case of Korea, by being able to fight a conventional war. There is a good deal in that, I dare say, but, if so, we must not cripple our power to fight a conventional war by scrapping

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  fighter or bomber aircraft. The two arguments are not really compatible with each other.
  I do not know the figures, but I would guess—and the Minister can correct me if I am wrong—that the scrapping of our nuclear deterrent itself and nothing else would save considerably under£100 million, not£300 million; and that is rather an important difference. The truth about these terrible weapons—and this, also, is a terrible truth—is that they are not immensely expensive. It is a very grim fact and one which we ought not to overlook. All that shows up most terribly the mixture of the moral and economic arguments in favour of the scrapping of the British contribution of the British nuclear deterrent in itself.
  That argument was used, for example, by the Liberal candidate in Rochdale. He explained to us, in a letter in The Times the other day, how he had stood on scrapping the British nuclear deterrent, and how he would save so much by that that he would reduce Income Tax and invest on the greatest scale in the Commonwealth. He will not find that£1 million goes very far towards doing that. Such arguments are very deceptive.
  There was a much more serious argument from the right hon. Member for Flint, West, who said that these costs may grow very much. That is a very real danger, and it must be very carefully watched. If, for example, rockets have to be developed and, in the end, we replace Bomber Command with them, there is a saving. It is not a gross increase in expenditure. That is not a conclusive argument, although it certainly must be taken into account.
  I conclude by repeating what I said at the beginning. Our real criticism of the Government's White Paper this year relates to paragraph 12. We think that that is one of the most disastrous things the Government have said, and that it shows a most alarming inability on the part of the Minister of Defence to think out the realities of the nuclear situation. Goodness knows, they are difficult, perplexing and tragic enough, but he does not seem to have begun to think clearly about them. He has not gone nearly as far as those people in the United States who have devoted their time and energies to thinking of these matters.
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  My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper, who is very generous as a speaker, was very careful to congratulate the Government on one thing, at any rate, namely, that for the first time they had had the same Minister of Defence two years' running. We congratulate the Minister on his unparalled record in that respect. In a way, however, he seems to be only the same Minister of Defence as he was last year. I do not think that he is, quite. I do not think that he is quite that confident, authoritative figure whom we saw last year, with his new defence policy, which was to solve all these questions.
  He has had to face the terrible difficulties and dilemmas of nuclear policy, which is a very different thing, and I hope that he is beginning to see that these very simple and slapdash formulations that he has made in paragraph 12 will not fit the realities of the situation. This year we feel that for him it will be:
  "Never glad confident morning again!"
  That, at any rate, he can share with the rest of the Government. They, too, are a very different Government from what they were a year ago. The coat is wearing very thin indeed, now. All real pretence that we have a Foreign Secretary has now been given up.
  In this situation we cannot expect the Government to do very much or to do anything good, but we do ask them to refrain from doing the active harm which they undoubtedly did by producing paragraph 12 of the White Paper. I tell them once more what that harm was. It was the harm of tending to break the spirit and the powers of resistance of our people by giving them no hope of survival at all.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Christopher Soames): We are all glad to see the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) back again after his serious illness, and we are particularly glad that he recovered in time to take part in the defence debate. Before I start with the main arguments of the debate, I should like to take up one point made by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas), who mentioned that a United States bomber carrying a nuclear bomb had, he thought—
  Mr. de Freitas: I never said that it was a United States bomber, and I never said that it had crashed. I said I was told—[Laughter.] I hope that is a fair point. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman is dealing with it.
  Mr. Soames: I was not suggesting it was not a fair point. I was saying that the hon. Gentleman said he was told that a United States bomber carrying a nuclear bomb had recently crashed in East Anglia. I can assure him that is not so.
  When we are framing our speeches for a defence debate, we cannot help feeling a great sense of awe at the terms of terrible destruction in which we have to speak when discussing the topics with which the House has been dealing during these last two days. I know that I felt it deeply, and the more one thinks about these problems the more one becomes convinced of the dire necessity for broad and far-reaching disarmament agreements between the Communists and Western worlds.
  One conclusion which I am sure is shared by everyone who has listened to this debate is what an enormous relief it would be for the whole world if the means can be found to achieve this. But in the context of a defence debate we must take the world as it is today, and as it would be if our hopes for disarmament were not realised. The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) said that the problems presented are not just black and white; and how right he was. There is a large area of grey, and of varying tones of grey at that. The difficulty is that if we just talk in terms of black and white we are bound to fall into the trap of over-simplifying it. If we try to talk in terms of all the shades of grey, there are so many commutations and different possible sets of circumstances that it is quite impossible to be precise; and indeed it would be very unwise to try to be.
  The main theme running through this debate has centred on paragraph 12 of the White Paper. There has been a good deal of misinterpretation of this statement in the White Paper. The right hon. Member for Dundee, West and the right hon. Member for Belper both said that
  664
  the Government had produced a White Paper which everyone had taken to indicate that the ultimate deterrent would be used in anything but a minor incident.
  The right hon. Member for Dundee, West said in a television interview shortly after the White Paper was issued, that his complaint about it was where it said that if the Russians became aggressive in any way, even without themselves using the bomb, we should start throwing H-bombs at them. That was the interpretation which the right hon. Gentleman put on the White Paper. Surely this is the thought underlying the opening part of the Opposition Amendment. All I can say is that the kindest interpretation to put on these remarks is that hon. Members opposite have completely failed to comprehend the purpose of it. The sentence in the White Paper to which this part of the Amendment refers reads as follows:
  "The democratic Western nations will never start a war against Russia. But it must be well understood that, if Russia were to launch a major attack on them, even with conventional forces only, they would have to hit back with strategic nuclear weapons."
  This is the only sentence in the White Paper which categorically says that the deterrent would be used. It is very important. To hold to our analogy of colour, this is the black.
  This raises the whole question of what we look to the deterrent to deter. Hitherto, the Western world has looked to it to deter the Russians from engaging in a major act of aggression of any character. Time was when the United States possessed the deterrent and the means of delivering it in considerable quantities and when the Russians had none of it. But they had overwhelming superiority on the Continent of Europe in conventional forces. We in the West regarded the deterrent as our safeguard against the use of those conventional forces. There was never any question then but that a major Russian attack against the West—it would have been conventional, for they had nothing else—would have brought to bear the whole weight of Western nuclear retaliation.
  This was the situation when the party opposite was in power. Leaving aside politics, it is worth examining the changes which have taken place in the military situation since then. The H-bomb has succeeded the A-bomb as the deterrent,

  665
  and the Russians are now a nuclear Power. They have the means of bringing great destruction to this country. Before many years are out they will be able to penetrate deep into the United States, too. Meanwhile, the balance of conventional power has not altered. The Russians still have enormous superiority in men and in weapons. If we are not, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence said yesterday, to devote an enormously increasing proportion of our manpower and resources to conventional arms, we must still look to the deterrent to deter conventional as well as nuclear aggression.
  If the West were to renounce the use of a deterrent in the event of a major, though purely conventional, aggression by Russia against the West, then, in the context of the balance of power as it is today, that would give a supreme and totally unacceptable military advantage to the Communist world. I think that the Opposition Front Bench would agree with me thus far.
  Those who believe that we should counter conventional aggression only with conventional resistance should certainly not be supporting the reductions in conventional forces which are now taking place. They should not, in one voice, decline to approve a defence policy which relies upon the deterrent to protect us from major aggression, and at the same time support a policy to run down our forces to 375,000 men. It is only under the shield of a deterrent that we can contemplate reducing our forces to this extent in the world as we have to live in it today.
  Allied to this is the question whether or not it is right to make our position clear in public. Surely there is a great deal to be said for plain speaking in this matter of supreme importance. There is no grey involved here, to go hack to our analogy; this is all black. For the strength of N.A.T.O. troops on the ground is such that it would need a major aggression to overcome them. The question is, are we more or less likely to deter such aggression by making our position quite clear?
  My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence reminded us, when he opened the debate, how different world history might have been if the allies had made their position clear to the Kaiser and to
  666
  Hitler. This sentiment was echoed by the right hon. Member for Belper and by my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Sir F. Maclean), and I think it commands the broad agreement of the House.
  I do not think any of us believe that it is the intention of the Russian Government wilfully to bring about a major clash of arms with the West. The danger of global war lies not in cold calculation by the men in the Kremlin. It lies in miscalculation. So it must be not only in our interests but in the interests of the whole world that we should narrow the area of possible miscalculation. The danger of global war lies not in the black but in the grey. The Russians will not chance their arm in a manner which they consider will result in nuclear retaliation. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) approves of that statement.
  Of all the areas throughout the world where there is friction between the Communist and capitalist worlds, or a danger of friction, the one where armed conflict is least likely to develop on a major scale is Europe. But that situation has not come about by chance. It has come about because the Western nations have built up the strength of N.A.T.O., and because they have devoted sufficient resources to producing a massive deterrent. If N.A.T.O. were to dissolve or if the West were unilaterally to renounce the use of the H-bomb, even in the event of major Russian aggression, then Western Europe would become overnight the biggest danger spot of all. It would therefore be a good thing if we cleared up this all-important matter of what our reaction would be in the event of major aggression.
  Mr. Paget: This is a very serious point. What we want is security, but by threatening something which is wholly incredible we provide the very uncertainty which we wish to avoid. Nobody says that we must not use the atom bomb against a conventional attack. Our argument is that to say that a conventional attack would provoke unlimited atomic retaliation against the centres of Russia is incredible, absurd and will not be believed.
  Mr. Soames: That is just the point which I am trying to make. We are talking here in terms of a major aggression by conventional weapons, a major attack

  667
  by conventional weapons. We are talking about retaliation when a major attack has been made. That is all that has been said in the White Paper.
  I do not believe that the Leader of the Opposition would disagree with the premise that a major Russian onslaught, albeit only conventional, must be met with thermo-nuclear retaliation. No official Opposition spokesman in the debate has denied that. But in the Amendment there is this rather vague assertion that they think that Government policy as set out in the White Paper relies too much upon the use of the thermonuclear. Yet the only place in the White Paper where the Government say that the West would have to have recourse unequivocably to thermo-nuclear is in the event of major Russian aggression against the West. Is there any difference between them on the major Russian aggression? One can recognise it when one sees it—vast mobilisation and preparations. One sees it. Is there any difference between them? There is a danger that people outside this House, and beyond these shores, might feel that the Opposition would disagree with this fundamental approach, and I think that the Leader of the Opposition really ought to make his position clear.
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: The hon. Gentleman keeps telling us that the real danger is not in the black but in the grey. What, then, is the point in going on and on talking about the black? We want to know what the Government would do if something happened in the grey.
  Mr. Soames: What I said was that the reason why the danger did not lie in the black was the existence of the deterrent; but if the right hon. Gentleman is to tell us that if he gets into power he will not rely on the deterrent to resist Russian aggression, it might well be a very different story in Europe.
  Is all this new? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West said how different in this respect this year's White Paper was from last year's. Paragraph 14 of last year's White Paper said:
  "… the only existing safeguard against major aggression is the power to threaten retaliation with nuclear weapons."
  668
  In last year's defence debate, no mention of that was made in the Amendment moved by the Opposition.
  Let us now turn to the grey, which is a far harder proposition. The difficulty of talking with precision here was expressed most clearly by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) in what, if I may be so bold as to say so, was a remarkably patriotic and witty speech. The paler shades of grey do not present a problem, as the right hon. Member for Belper said. There are the uprisings, the frontier incidents, bandit warfare in the jungle; no one is in doubt that these are dealt with with conventional weapons; and the principle of conservation of force—that one does not deploy greater strength than is needed—is just as applicable in this as in the greater field.
  The real danger lies in the fact that an unscrupulous nation, playing upon the natural abhorence and reluctance of the Western world to launch into a mutually devastating nuclear exchange, might indulge in military adventures, or encourage other countries to do so whilst giving them thinly-veiled support. This point was made clearly by my hon. Friend the Member for Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison). This is a field in which no Government can say in advance to what weapons they would need to have recourse in any of the possible different sets of circumstances. We cannot, and we would not try to. Neither would the party opposite, if in power, and we would not expect it to—
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman has said that the 1914–18 and the 1939–45 wars broke out because of lack of clarity about our position. He now says that there is an equal lack of clarity today.
  Mr. Soames: The lack of clarity then was as to whether or not we would fight. The lack of clarity about which I now talk is as to the weapons we would use.
  As I say, we cannot try to be precise as to the weapons we would use, and neither would the Opposition. They would use, as would we, the same doctrine of medium force. We would not deploy more forces, we would not have recourse to bigger explosive power, than was absolutely necessary to protect our interests. What is important here is that

  669
  the Western world, and we in particular, should devote a sufficiently high proportion of our defence expenditure to conventional weapons, so that we will not be in a posit ion of having to resort to undue force.
  We are, in fact, devoting well over 80 per cent. of our defence expenditure to conventional arms. That does not count the V-bomber force, which, of course, is equally capable of conventional action. When one considers the cost of the deterrent, not only of the weapons that we are paying for but of the research and development which has to go on for future weapons, this would seem to be a very fair balance; and I should certainly have thought that that alone would have shown beyond peradventure that we are not relying unduly upon the deterrent. So, as I have said, our forces must be so organised that we can meet resistance without having to resort to undue force.
  The right hon. Member for Belper and the right hon. Member for Dundee, West said that there was not sufficient information in the White Paper about tactical nuclear weapons. In this respect, it was made clear in last year's White Paper that it is the Government's policy to equip British forces with them. It would be tedious if the same things had to be repeated every year. The fact that last year's statement has not been spelt out again in this year's Paper does not, I assure the House, indicate any change of Government policy.
  The Royal Air Force has had for some time stocks of tactical atomic bombs for the light bomber force. The Army is being equipped with the Corporal ground-to-ground weapon, which has a nuclear war-head, and the first regiment will be deployed in B.A.O.R. this year. The House will recall that we are proceeding with the establishment of a range in the Hebrides, the main purpose of which will be the training of troops in the handling and firing of Corporal. We are continuing also our own research and development for a future generation of tactical weapons.
  The second part of the Amendment refers to the installation of the missiles in this country. The Opposition's case is not that we should never have missiles here. The right hon. Member for Belper
  670
  said that we were wrong to have Thor missiles because, he thought, they were not any good. The hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) put very clearly the other aspect of the Opposition's case that we should not install them before the summit talks. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air dealt at some length with the value of Thor early in the debate, and I should like to concentrate on the second part of the argument.
  Before the agreement about the missiles was published, there were all sorts of wild speculations. When it was finally published and hon. Members saw what a comprehensive degree of control we had over the use of the weapons, very little was said, and very little has been said in the course of the debate. The Amendment says that we should not go on with the rocket bases until summit talks have taken place. In fact, there will be no rockets in position in this country before the summit talks, unless they are very long delayed. The Opposition's case, however, as I understand it, is that even preparing rocket bases is likely to affect the spirit and outcome of the talks.
  I suggest to the House that the Russians are very grown-up. The outcome of summit talks—which we all hope will take place—will depend upon whether or not the Russians want to reduce tension in the world. If that is so, they will certainly not be deflected by the fact that the deterrent power based in this country is being increased, any more than we will be deflected in our search for peace by the knowledge that the Russians are today building rocket bases. I do not believe that this is a serious argument as a part of the Amendment, except in so far as it demonstrates the highest common factor of agreement within the party opposite.
  I will turn to some of the other points which have been raised about the life of the Services, points raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Sir W. Anstruther-Gray) and the hon. Members for Lancaster and Bermondsey. The House, I am sure, will realise the difficulties which the major reorganisation of the forces has presented to each Service. Having served in all three Departments, perhaps I may be excused in saying that

  671
  of the three Services the Army is confronted with the gravest problems and the greatest heartburns. The House realises full well what a part regimental traditions play in the Army's life, and with what sorrow past and present members of the forces view the departure of these famous regiments.
  There is the question of the collective morale of the Services. The way in which all three Services have accepted the reorganisation and all that it means for them has been in accordance with their highest traditions. We are dealing here also with the lives of individuals. We are dealing with the hopes and prospects of young men who are looking forward to serving their country in the Services. I would say to them, that the prospects of a full and satisfying career in the Armed Forces of the future will be every bit as good as in the larger forces of the past.
  The problem of regular recruiting is greater for the Army than for the other two Services, and that is because the Army has to recruit more than the other two Services. The recent figures give us cause for hope that the Government will achieve their objective of having a sufficient number in the forces to be able to do away with National Service.
  Compared with many hon. Members, I have but a short experience of this House, but I never cease to wonder at the difficulty of foretelling what course a debate will take. In view of the controversy that has appeared to be raging since this year's White Paper was published, the public could well have been excused if it believed that irreconcilable differences existed on each side of the House. This debate has shown that the area of disagreement between the Front Bench opposite and this side is far smaller than that between the main body of the Opposition and some of its supporters. The differences between us are matters of degree and emphasis, not of principle.
  Our hope must be that the world will take more notice of what has been said in this debate, and of the wide measure of agreement between the two parties, rather than of the fact that the Opposition have chosen to divide the House. By dividing it and showing a degree of disunity which is quite unreal, they are rendering a disservice to the cause of peace.
  Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:—
  The House divided: Ayes 318, Noes 263.

  Division No. 49.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Aitken, W. T.

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  du Cann, E. D. L.

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Duncan, Sir James

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

  Duthie, W. S.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

  Bryan, P.

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Arbuthnot, John

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Elliott, R. W. (Ne'castleuponTyne, N.)

  Ashton, H.

  Butler. Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Campbell, Sir David

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Atkins, H. E.

  Carr, Robert

  Erroll, F. J.

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Channon, Sir Henry

  Fell, A.

  Bam iel, Lord

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Barber, Anthony

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Barlow, Sir John

  Cole, Norman

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Barter, John

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Forrest, G.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Cooke, Robert

  Foster, John

  Beamish, Col. Tufton

  Cooper, A. E.

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Freeth, Denzil

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Corfield, Capt. F. V.

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Gammans, Lady

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Bidgood, J. C.

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Gibson-Watt, D.

  Bingham, R. M.

  Cunningham, Knox

  Glover, D.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Dance, J. C. G.

  Glyn, Col. Richard H.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Godber, J. B.

  Black, C. W.

  D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Gomme-Dunean, Col. Sir Alan

  Body, R. F.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Goodhart, Philip

  Boothby, Sir Robert

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Bossom, Sir Alfred

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Gower, H. R.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Grant, W. (Woodside)

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Redmayne, M.

  Grand-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Green, A.

  Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westhury)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (Sutton Coldfield)

  Rippon, A. G. F.

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Gurden, Harold

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Robertson, Sir David

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

  Roper, sir Harold

  Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  McAdden, S. J.

  Russell, R. S.

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  McKibbin, Alan

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Sharples, R. C.

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Shepherd, William

  Hay, John

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Hesketh, R. F.

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Speir, R. M.

  Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Maddan, Martin

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Hope, Lord John

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Hornby, R. P.

  Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

  Storey, S.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Marshall, Douglas

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Mathew, R.

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Maude, Angus

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Maudlins, Rt. Hon. R.

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Mawby, R. L.

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Howard, John (Test)

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr, S. L. C.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral, J.

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Teeling, W.

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Temple, John M.

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Hurd, A. R.

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh.S.)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

  Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

  Neave, Airey

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

  Hyde, Montgomery

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

  Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-S-Mare)

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Osborne, C.

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

  Joseph, Sir Keith

  Page, R. G.

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

  Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Kaberry, D.

  Partridge, E.

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

  Keegan, D.

  Peel, W. J.

  Wall, Patrick

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Kerr, Sir. Hamilton

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Kershaw, J. A.

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Webbe, Sir H.

  Kimball, M.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Whitelaw, W. S. I.

  Kirk, P. M.

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Lagden, G. W.

  Pott, H. P.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Lambton, Viscount

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Wills, G. (Bridgwater)

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Woollam, John Victor

  Leavey, J. A.

  Profumo, J. D.

  Leburn, W. G.

  Ramsden, J. E.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Mr. Heath and Mr. Oaksh ott.

  NOES

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Balfour, A,

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Boardman, H.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G

  Anderson, Frank

  Benson, Sir George

  Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Beswick, Frank

  Bowles, F. G.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Boyd, T. C.

  Baird, J.

  Blackburn, F.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  674

  675

  Brockway, A. F.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Probert, A. R.

  Bur e, W. A.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Janner, B.

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Randall, H. E.

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Rankin, John

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (Holbn & St. Pncs. S.)

  Redhead, E. C.

  Carmichael, J.

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Reeves, J.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Reid, William

  Champion, A. J.

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Rhodes, H.

  Chapman, W. D.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Clunie, J.

  Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Coldrick, W.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Ross, William

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Kenyon, C.

  Royle, C.

  Cove, W. G.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Short, E. W.

  Cronin, J. D.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Ledger, R. J.

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Lewis, Arthur

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Snow, J. W.

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  Logan, D. G.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Deer, G.

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  McCann, J.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Delargy, H. J.

  MacColl, J. E.

  Steele, T.

  Diamond, John

  MacDermot, Niall

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Dodds, N. N.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Stonehouse, John

  Donnelly, D. L.

  McInnes, J.

  Stones, W. (Consett)

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Dye, S.

  McLeavy, Frank

  Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on- Trent, C)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Edelman, M.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Swingler, S. T.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Mahon, Simon

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigs)

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Fernyhough, E.

  Mason, Roy

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Finch, H. J.

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Timmons, J.

  Fletcher, Eric

  Mellish, R. J.

  Tomney, F.

  Foot, D. M.

  Messer, Sir F.

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Usborne, H. C.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Viant, S. P.

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Car'then)

  Monslow, W.

  Wade, D. W.

  Gibson, C. W.

  Moody, A. S.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Gooch, E. G.

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Weitzman, D.

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert (Lewis'm, S.)

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Mort, D. L.

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Grey, C. F.

  Moss, R.

  West, D. G.

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Moyle, A.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mulley, F. W.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Hale, Leslie

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Wigg, George

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Hannan, W.

  O'Brien, Sir Thomas

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Willey, Frederick

  Hastings, S.

  Oram, A. E.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Hayman, F. H.

  Orbach, M.

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

  Healey, Denis

  Owen, W. J.

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  Padley, W. E.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Paget, R. T.

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

  Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Holman, P.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Winterbottom, Richard

  Holmes, Horace

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Holt, A. F.

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Woof, R. E.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Parker, J.

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Howell, Denis (All Saints)

  Paton, John

  Zilliacus, K.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Peart, T. F.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Pentland, N.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Mr. Bowden and Mr. Pearson.

  Hunter, A. E.

  Popplewell, E.

  Main Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 317, Noes 261.
  Resolved,
  That this House approves the Report on Defence (Britain's Contribution to Peace and Security) set out in Command Paper No. 363.

  WAYS AND MEANS
  [25th February]
  Resolution reported,
  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE CONTRIBUTIONS
  1. That the rates of national health service contributions be increased, by substituting the rates specified in the Table set out below for the rates set out in the First Schedule to the National Health Service Contributions Act. 1957.
  2. That there be paid into the Exchequer any increase in the sums so payable under the said Act of 1957, being an increase attributable to the change in the rates of national health service contributions.
  3. That it is expedient to make provision for other matters incidental or supplementary to the matters aforesaid.

  TABLE

  Description of person

  Weekly rate of contribution

  s.

  d.

  1. Employed men between the ages of 18 and 70, not including men over the age of 65 who have retired from regular employment

  1

  10½

  Description of person

  Weekly rate of contribution

  s.

  d.

  2. Employed women between the ages of 18 and 65, not including women over the age of 60 who have retired from regular employment

  1

  4½

  3. Employed boys and girls under the age of 18

  10½

  4. Employers

  5½

  5. Self-employed men between the ages of 18 and 70, not including men over the age of 65 who have retired from regular employment

  2

  2

  6. Self-employed women be-between the ages of 18 and 65, not including women over the age of 60 who have retired from regular employment

  1

  8

  7. Self-employed boys and girls under the age of 18

  1

  2

  8. Non-employed men between the ages of 18 and 65

  2

  2

  9. Non-employed women between the ages of 18 and 60

  1

  8

  10. Non-employed boys and girls under the age of 18

  1

  2

  Resolution read a Second time.
  Question, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 86 (Ways and Means Motions and Resolutions):—
  The House divided: Ayes 316, Noes 253.

  Division No. 50.]

  AYES

  [10.11 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Elliott, R. W. (N'castle upon Tyne, N.)

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Aitken, W. T.

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Joseph, Sir Keith

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Fell, A.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

  Anstruther-Cray, Major Sir William

  Finlay, Graeme

  Kaberry, D.

  Arbuthnot, John

  Fisher, Nigel

  Keegan, D.

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Ashton, H.

  Forrest, G.

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Foster, John

  Kershaw, J. A.

  Atkins, H. E.

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Kimball, M.

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M

  Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

  Kirk, P. M.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Freeth, Denzil

  Lagden, G. W.

  Balniel, Lord

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Lambton, Viscount

  Barber, Anthony

  Gammans, Lady

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Barlow, Sir John

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Barter, John

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Gibson-Watt, D.

  Leavey, J. A.

  Beamish, Col. Tufton

  Glover, D.

  Leburn, W. G.

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Glyn, Col. Richard H.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Godber, J. B.

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald

  Goodhart, Philip

  Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Bidgood, J. C.

  Gower, H. R.

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (Sutton Coldfield)

  Bingham, R. M.

  Grant, W. (Woodside)

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Bishop, F. P.

  Green, A.

  Longden, Gilbert

  Black, C. W.

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Body, R. F.

  Crimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Boothby, Sir Robert

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

  Bossom, Sir Alfred

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Gurden, Harold

  McAdden, S. J.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  McKibbin, Alan

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  MoLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Bryan, P.

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Campbell, Sir David

  Hay, John

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Carr, Robert

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Maddan, Martin

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Channon, Sir Henry

  Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

  Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hesketh, R. F.

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Cole, Norman

  Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

  Cooke, Robert

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Marshall, Douglas

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Mathew, R.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Hobson, John(Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

  Maude, Angus

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Corfield, Capt. F. V.

  Hope, Lord John

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Hornby, R. P.

  Mawby, R. L.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Cunningham, Knox

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Dance, J. C. G.

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Howard, John (Test)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Neave, Airey

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Dodds-Parker A. D.

  Hurd, A. R.

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.)

  Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)

  Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  du Cann, E. D. L.

  Hyde, Montgomery

  O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

  Duncan, Sir James

  Iremongar, T. L.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Duthie, W. S.

  Irvine, Bryan Godman (Rye)

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-S-Mare)

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Osborne, C.

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Page, R. G.

  Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Russell, R. S.

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Partridge, E.

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

  Peel, W. J.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Sharples, R. C.

  Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Shepherd, William

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Pott, H. P.

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Speir, R. M.

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n. S.)

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Profumo, J. D.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Wall, Patrick

  Redmayne, M.

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Watkinson, R. Hon. Harold

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Storey, S.

  Webbe, Sir H.

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Whitelaw, W. S. I.

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Rippon, A. G. F.

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Wills, G. (Bridgwater)

  Robertson, Sir David

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Teeling, W.

  Woollam, John Victor

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Temple, John M.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Mr. Heath and Mr. Oakshott.

  NOES

  Alnsley, J. W.

  Deer, G.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Diamond, John

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Anderson, Frank

  Dodds, N. N.

  Janner, B.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Bacon, Miss Alica

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Baird, J.

  Dye, S.

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (Holbn & St. Pncs. S.)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Edelman, M.

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S. E.)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Benson, Sir George

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield)

  Beswick, Frank

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Blackburn, F.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Blyton, W. R.

  Finch, H. J.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Boardman, H.

  Fletcher, Eric

  Kenyan, C.

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Foot, D. M.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Bowles, F. G.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Boyd, T. C.

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Car'then)

  Ledger, R. J.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Gibson, C. W.

  Lee, Frederiok (Newton)

  Brockway, A. F.

  Gooch, E. G.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Lewis, Arthur

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Grey, C. F.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Burke, W. A.

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Logan, D. G.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Hale, Leslie

  McCann, J.

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Carmichael, J.

  Hannan, W.

  MacDermot, Niall

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Champion, A. J.

  Hastings, S.

  McInnes, J.

  Chapman, W. D.

  Hayman, F. H.

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Healey, Denis

  McLeavy, Frank

  Clunie, J.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Coldrick, W.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Mahon, Simon

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Cove, W. G.

  Holman, P.

  Mallalleu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Holmes, Horace

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Cronin, J. D.

  Holt, A. F.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Mason, Roy

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Howell, Denis (All Saints)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Messer, Sir F.

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Hunter, A. E.

  Monslow, W.

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Moody, A. S.

  680

  681

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Redhead, E. C.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Morrison,Rt.Hn.Herbert(Lewis'm,S.)

  Reeves, J.

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Mort, D. L.

  Reid, William

  Timmons, J.

  Moss, R.

  Rhodes, H.

  Tomney, F.

  Moyle, A.

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Mulley, F. W.

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Usborne, H. C.

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Roberts, Coronwy (Caernarvon)

  Viant, S. P.

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Wade, D. W.

  Noel-Baker, Ht. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Warbey, W. N.

  O'Brien, Sir Thomas

  Ross, William

  Weitzman, D.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Royle, C.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Oram, A. E.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Orbach, M.

  Short, E. W.

  West, D. G.

  Owen, W. J.

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Padley, W. E.

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Paget, R. T.

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Wigg, George

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

  Willey, Frederick

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Snow, J. W.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Parker, J.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Paton, John

  Sparks, J. A.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Peart, T. F.

  Steele, T.

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Pentland, N.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Stonehouse, John

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Popplewell, E.

  Stones, W. (Consett)

  Winterbottom, Richard

  Prentice, R. E.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

  Woof, R. E.

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Probert, A. R.

  Swingler, S. T.

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Randall, H. E.

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES

  Rankin, John

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Mr. Bowden and Mr. Pearson.

  Division No. 51.]

  AYES

  110.22 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  du Cann, E. D. L.

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh.W.)

  Aitken, W. T.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Duthie, W. S.

  Hutchison,Michael Clark (E'b'gh.S.)

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Hyde, Montgomery

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Elliott, R. W.(N'castle upon Tyne,N.)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

  Emmet, Hon. Mrt. Evelyn

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Arbuthnot, John

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Erroll, F. J.

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Ashton, H.

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Fell, A.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Atkins, H. E.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Fisher, Nigel

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Joseph, Sir Keith

  Balniel, Lord

  Forrest, G.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

  Barber, Anthony

  Foster, John

  Kaberry, D.

  Barlow, Sir John

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Keegan, D.

  Barter, John

  Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmhe & Lonsdale)

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Freeth, Denzil

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Beamish, Col. Tufton

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Kershaw, J. A.

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Gammans, Lady

  Kimball, M.

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Kirk, P. M.

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  Lagden, G. W.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald

  Gibson-Watt, D.

  Lambton, Viscount

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Glover, D.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Bldgood, J. C.

  Glyn, Col. Richard H.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Godber, J. B.

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Bingham, R. M.

  Goodhart, Philip

  Leavey, J. A.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Leburn, W. G.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Gower, H. R.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Black, C. W.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Body, R. F.

  Grant, W. (Woodside)

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Boothby, Sir Robert

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R.(Nantwich)

  Lindsay, Mar in (Solihull)

  Bossom, Sir Alfred

  Green, A.

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G.(Sutton Coldfield)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Gurden, Harold

  Longden, Gilbert

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Lucas, P. B.(Brentford & Chiswick)

  Bryan, P.

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

  McAdden, S. J.

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R.A.(Saffron Walden)

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  McKibbin, Alan

  Campbell, Sir David

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Carr, Robert

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Channon, Sir Henry

  Hay, John

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Cole, Norman

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Macmillan,Rt.Hn.Harold(Bromley)

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Hesketh, R. F.

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Cooke, Robert

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Maddan, Martin

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W.(Horncastle)

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Corfield, Capt. F. V.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Holt, A. F.

  Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Hope, Lord John

  Marshall, Douglas

  Cunningham, Knox

  Hornby, R. P.

  Mathew, R.

  Dance, J. C. C.

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Maude, Angus

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

  Davies,Rt.Hn.Clement(Montgomery)

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Mawby, R. L.

  D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr, S. L. C.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Howard, John (Test)

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hurd, A. R.

  Nabarro. G. D. N.

  684

  685

  Neave, Airey

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Teeling, W.

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Rippon, A. G. F.

  Temple, John M.

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Thompson, Kenneth(Walton)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

  O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Tiley, A.(Bradford, W.)

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

  Russell, R. S.

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Turner, H. F

  Orr-Ewing, Sit Ian (Weston-S-Mare)

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Turton, Rt Hon. R. H.

  Osborne, C.

  Sharples, R. C.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Page, R. G.

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Partridge, E.

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Peel, W. J.

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Wade, D. W.

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Speir, R. M.

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Pitman, I. J.

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Wall, Patrick

  Pott, H. P.

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Webbe, Sir H.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Whitelaw, W. S. I.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Storey, S.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Profumo, J. D.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Woollam, John Victor

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Mr. Redmayne and Mr. Wills

  NOES

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Deer, G.

  Hunter, A. E.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Awbery, S. S.

  Delargy, H. J.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Diamond, John

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Baird, J.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Donnelly, D.L.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

  Janner, B.

  Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

  Dye, S.

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Benson, Sir George

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Beswick, Frank

  Edelman, M.

  Jeger, Mrs.Lena(Holbn & St.Pncs,S.)

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Blackburn, F.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Blyton, W. R.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Jones,Rt. Hon. A. Creech(Wakefield)

  Boardman, H.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Fernyhough, E.

  Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

  Finch, H. J.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Bowles, F. G.

  Fletcher, Eric

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Boyd, T. C.

  Foot, D. M.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Kenyon, C.

  Brockway, A. F.

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd(Car'then)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Gibson, C. W.

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Gooch, E. G.

  Ledger, R. J.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Burke, W. A.

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Grey, C. F.

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Lewis, Arthur

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Carmichael, J.

  Hale, Leslie

  Logan, D. G.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Champion, A. J.

  Hannan, W.

  McCann, J.

  Chapman, W. D.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Hastings, S.

  MacDermot, Niall

  Clunie, J.

  Hayman, F. H.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Coldrick, W.

  Healey, Denis

  McInnes, J.

  Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Herbison, Miss M.

  McLeavy, Frank

  Cove, W. G.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Cronin, J. D.

  Holman, P.

  Mahon, Simon

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Holmes, Horace

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Howell, Denis (All Saints)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Mason, Roy

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  Mayhew, C. P.

  Probert, A. R.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Messer, Sir F.

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Randall, H. E.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Rankin, John

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Monslow, W.

  Redhead, E. C.

  Timmons, J.

  Moody, A. S.

  Reeves, J.

  Tomney, F.

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Reid, William

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Morrison,Rt.Hn.Herbert(Lewis'm,S.)

  Rhodes, H.

  Usborne, H. C.

  Mort, D. L.

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Viant, S. P.

  Moss, R.

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Warbey, W. N.

  Moyle, A.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Weitzman, D.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Ross, William

  West, D. G.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

  Royle, C.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  O'Brien, Sir Thomas

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Short, E. W.

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Oram, A. E.

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Wigg, George

  Orbach, M.

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Owen, W. J.

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Padley, W. E.

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Willey, Frederick

  Paget, R. T.

  Skeffington, A.M.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Snow, J. W.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

  Parker, J.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Winterbottom, Richard

  Paton, John

  Stonehouse, John

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Peart, T. F.

  Stones, W. (Consett)

  Woof, R. E.

  Pentland, N.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Prentice, R. E.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Swingler, S. T.

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Sylvester, G. O.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. Popplewell.

  Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Walker-Smith, Mr. Maclay, Dr. Hill, Mr. Simon, and Mr. R. Thompson.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE CONTRIBUTIONS
  Bill to increase the rates of national health service contributions, and for purposes connected therewith, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next and to be printed. [Bill 75.]

  SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
  Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Brighouse [copy laid before the House, 25th February], approved.—[Mr. Renton.]
  Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Morley [copy laid before the House, 25th February], approved.—[Mr. Renton.]
  Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Stevenage [copy laid before the House, 25th February], approved.—[Mr. Renton.]
  Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Woodbridge [copy laid before the House, 25th February], approved.—[Mr. Renton.]

  B.B.C. TELEVISION (MEDICAL PROGRAMMES)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Wills.]
  10.37 p.m.
  Dr. Edith Summerskill: I want to call the attention of the House tonight to a series of films called "Your Life in Their Hands" which is being shown on television and which, in the opinion of many responsible people, causes distress to the sick and plants the seeds of fear and apprehension in many other people.

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  It is very important for the House to picture the scene in many houses today of the T.V. set in the little kitchen or living room, and gathered round it are members of the family, including children and, very often, sick people and those nearest to them. There are T.V. sets not only in people's homes; today they are installed in hospitals and institutions of all kinds, and in these institutions viewing is very often entirely uncontrolled.
  I understand that it is necessary for producers to ponder how they can present something new to the public. After all, that is the duty of the producer, I presume, and the various people who work with him; they are paid to provide entertainment. But this dramatic presentation of disease in its various aspects is the latest invention of the fertile mind of the T.V. producer, and I do not believe he has given sufficient thought to the effects upon the viewers.
  This matter was brought to the attention of the B.B.C. Its defence was to say that its viewers have a healthy interest in disease which it feels it is legitimate on its part to satisfy. My contention is that to have an interest in disease is not healthy unless one is a public health worker. A lay person has only a morbid interest in disease, which these T.V. films are fostering. [Interruption.] I hear an expression of dissent. I would remind the House that when a medical student who already has some pre-medical education first comes in contact with disease in a hospital he imagines that he has every variety of disease.
  Let us consider the viewing public. Half our hospital beds today are filled with patients suffering from some nervous disease. One-third of the prescriptions given to patients are in order to allay some nervous symptom, perhaps not a serious condition, but some mild nervous symptom. I believe that this big element in the viewing public should be borne in mind when there is any presentation on T.V.
  The films to which I have referred are, in my opinion, fit only for intelligent, well-balanced men and women who take an interest in medical and surgical techniques. I accept the fact that some intelligent men and women went, no doubt, with representatives of the B.B.C. to see these films, looked at them in a
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  rational way, looked at them because they are accustomed to seeing these sights, and said "How very interesting. Yes, these should be very interesting to the viewing public". A surgeon or physician interested in his own technique probably did not think of the other implications, such as how the films might hurt those who were perhaps not so intelligent and not so well informed. The fact is that T.V. today is viewed by a vast number of emotionally unstable people, whose emotions are easily aroused and who identify themselves very closely with the proceedings in these films. On seeing medical films, they think that what they are seeing today may be their fate tomorrow.
  Is it entertaining or educational to explain to neurotics what may happen if they pass over the borderline and become psychotic? In this sort of entertainment it is very easy to wear the cloak of respectability because this form of sensationalism is elevated into the scientific field.
  We have been told that the patients co-operate. How many patients would refuse? I saw the film on Tuesday night. A woman was taken to have a heart operation. She gave consent to the doctor. Obviously she had to give consent for the operation. She was surrounded by doctors. She was in a serious condition. Would that woman argue? Would she be in a condition to say, "No, I will not be televised during this operation"? Of course not. The sick patient is not in a strong-minded mood to resist.
  Others will say the doctors play a part. I agree certain doctors have played a part. I should like to know how many doctors have refused. No doubt those who do play a part are preoccupied with their own speciality and not with the wider implications which should be in the minds of us all.
  I would remind the House that the two diseases responsible for the largest number of deaths are the cardiovascular diseases and cancer. The latest figures we have of cancer are for 1956, when 94,354 people died from cancer in this country. I have not all the figures for heart disease, but from coronary alone 74,790 died in this country.

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  I do not think that to discuss any aspect of these diseases on the screen can do other than distress thousands of sufferers and their friends sitting watching the screen to while away the time. It is said people should be selective, but how many people examine the Radio Times or the daily newspaper announcements of the programmes? They just switch on their television, and sometimes it is on all day.
  Are the films educational? It is said that
  "A little learning is a dangerous thing."
  The only knowledge of the heart operation viewers could have acquired on Tuesday was disturbing. They could not possibly have understood the technical expressions about the pericardial sac, and so on. They were told—this may have been serious—a child with acute rheumatism would not develop heart disease immediately but might develop it in the early twenties. They were shown a woman with swollen ankles as having the first sign of heart disease, when every doctor knows women with swollen ankles go to their surgeries every day but have not got heart disease.
  The Minister in answering Questions yesterday gave the impression people were quite undisturbed by this series and had made no protest. I can only say that one mention of this debate in the Daily Telegraph brought certain letters to me which should convince the Minister that he should take action immediately of an advisory character. I am going to quote four of these. I am not quoting letters from individual patients to harrow the House. I am taking letters in a responsible fashion which I believe will impress because they represent groups. I am having to hurry because time is limited and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, West (Sir I. Clark Hutchison) has asked me if he could have a few minutes to take part in the debate.
  I must, first, quote this letter as representing the attitude of the close relative of one of the patients. He says:
  "I write to record the facts of the distressing incident in my home as a consequence of the B.B.C. television programme from the Christie Hospital.
  In February, 1956, my wife was seen by a surgeon, who made a diagnosis of Carcinoma of the breast with secondary deposits in the
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  axillary lymph nodes following the one and only presenting symptom—a sharp pain deep in the chest wall. Immediate surgery was suggested, to be followed by a course of deep X-ray therapy. Statistics were produced and she submitted to the suggested line of treatment She has always known that she had secondary deposits and whenever we have discussed the prognosis I have always been able to leave her with no doubt in her mind that because the dissection had been carried out so skilfully she now came into the category of first degree cancer and that the 50 per cent. 5-year cure rate now applied to her.
  On Tuesday night the B.B.C. left no doubt that the 5-year cure applied only to those people of the first degree category and did not appertain in those cases which were more complicated. You will, I have no doubt, appreciate what a cloud all this can form over a patient faced with this situation, and though all propaganda for early visits to the general practitioner should be pushed to the utmost. I cannot help thinking that a good deal of unnecessary distress can be caused by people who are so imbued with statistics that the human touch is overlooked."
  That is the point I want to stress—the human touch has been overlooked in this search for novelty by the television people.
  The next letter is from an ear, nose and throat surgeon. Incidentally, all these people are complete strangers to me. This surgeon is attached to a number of hospitals. These are busy people, but they have taken the trouble to write these letters. He says:
  "I was interested to read in this morning's newspaper of your intention to criticise the television showing of cancer cases to the public. I sincerely hope you will get much support in this.
  A few weeks ago of the 40 new patients that I saw in my ear, nose and throat outpatients clinic eight were cancerphobia cases. Yesterday a girl of 20 attended my house with a similar condition, wanting reassurance.
  This is a mental illness which is steadily on the increase, and I am firmly convinced that education of the public in matters of this nature does more harm than good.
  Please do not acknowledge this letter."
  I quote next a letter from a chemist in a very busy area of London, and we all know how busy chemists are. I shall be only too happy to show the Minister these letters. He says:
  "I notice that you are to introduce a debate in the House on Thursday regarding the advisability of the B.B.C. series on hospital practice. I thought that the following incident may help you to make a point.
  A woman came into my pharmacy last week with what appeared to be the symptoms of laryngitis—loss of voice, etc., and asked my

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  advice. Her concluding words were, I thought, most significant. She said, 'I am terribly worried about it after seeing that programme on cancer on the T.V.'
  Surely one in thousands, that programmes of this nature could turn into either hypochondriacs or, worse still, neurotic cases."
  I have one from a rector, who gives the name of his rectory. He says:
  "The weak must be protected. I am chaplain to a mental hospital where there is one T.V. room and programmes are rationed. But another mental hospital I know well has 30 T.V.s and no supervision over viewing—to the distress of the weaker patients."
  When the Minister was answering a Question in the House yesterday, he said that there was no indication that people were concerned about this. In the Library was the Evening Standard of yesterday's date. I think everyone will agree that those who contribute to the Evening Standard are fairly sophisticated men. In large type, the article says:
  "I Never Want To See This Again On T.V."
  This is an article by the T.V. critic of the Evening Standard and it describes "Your Life in Their Hands". It says:
  "It increased tenfold my admiration for the ironlined stomachs of the surgeons—but it turned mine completely.
  It was gruesome in the extreme, and I never want to see anything like it on television again. It also served to put me right off stuffed sheep's heart for the rest of my life.
  'Your Life in Their Hands' is the otherwise excellent series about hospital life that has angered the British Medical Association. The series ought never to have been made, says the B.M.A., who think it will only encourage the morbidly curious among the viewers. On last night's showing. I think the Association has a point there. I am afraid it just wasn't my stomach's night last night. Before the affair of the heart I was treated to close-ups of the feet and swollen ankles of a rheumatic fever patient."
  I have given these four quotations, and I think the Minister will agree that they are from responsible people. I have not worried the House by reading letters from patients. These are people who are in close association with these matters and who should be respected.
  Here is an opportunity when those who can advise the B.B.C. should give the Corporation their advice. We were told yesterday that the Minister had no power, but I do not think that that is quite accurate. Advice could go from this House to the effect that when any programme of this nature, of any kind, was
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  being considered, the representatives of the B.B.C. should take into account the hundreds of thousands of weak, helpless and inarticulate people who sit and watch and absorb and whose minds are deeply affected by what they see.
  I recognise that television is the most powerful medium of propaganda, and it will become more powerful in future. We in this House must see that it is used in such a way that it will only help and not harm.
  10.52 p.m.
  Sir Ian Clark Hutchison: At Question Time yesterday, I raised this subject and questioned the wisdom of showing operations on television. It was clear at Question Time yesterday that most hon. Members present felt that there was nothing wrong and that they rather favoured this type of programme. I must, therefore, take due note of the opinion of the majority in matters of this nature. Nevertheless, I still have grave doubts on this matter and find myself in agreement with a great deal of what the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) has said.
  Unlike the right hon. Lady, I can speak only as a layman. Therefore, it would be wrong for me to attempt to be dogmatic on a matter involving medical opinion. As a layman, however, I feel that there are certain dangers in the presentation of this type of programme to viewers all over the country. These dangers appear to me to be twofold.
  First, the showing of this type of programme may lead a considerable number of lay viewers to imagine that they are suffering from some form of serious disease. As a consequence, it may well be that doctors who are already heavily burdened with work will be faced with a greatly increased demand for tests and medical examinations of one kind and another. I cannot think that this will be helpful to the efficient and smooth working of the National Health Service.
  Secondly—and this is much more serious—I believe that the viewing of operations on the television screen may well frighten some people who are in the early grip of a disease and may, in fact, deter them from seeking medical advice. I find myself in considerable agreement with the recent articles in the British

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  Medical Journal which emphasise the morbid effects of this type of programme.
  There is certainly a great deal of very useful work which can be done by television in informing and educating the public in hygiene and the prevention of disease, and in this respect I commend to the attention of the B.B.C. the letter written by Dr. John Fry in the British Medical Journal on 22nd February. I think, however, that the televising of operations is going too far, and I therefore hope that my hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General and his Minister will give long and deep thought to this matter and will seek further medical opinion on it, because if they do I feel sure that they will find that many doctors are seriously worried about the possible effect of these programmes upon members of the public.
  10.55 p.m.
  The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Kenneth Thompson): The time left to me is short, and I must therefore abbreviate what I had intended to say. I want to preface my remarks with a few words about the degree of freedom accorded to the B.B.C. in forming its programmes, which is the basis of these discussions. The House is on record many times as wishing to leave the B.B.C. as untrammelled as possible by interference in or supervision over the subjects or treatment of broadcast programmes. I need not detain the House with quotations; they are liberally besprinkled through the pages of HANSARD. That is not surprising, for this House is the repository of all our freedoms—freedom for ourselves and freedom for those over whose lives and affairs we have some influence. That is entirely right. It is a claim of which the House is right to be proud.
  What is perhaps more surprising is that although in our corporate entity we leap to the defence of this freedom. particularly for the B.B.C., there are sporadic, reactionary sorties every now and then from some hon. Members who wish to chip away a little of this freedom. now here, now there, because the exercise of it offends some susceptibility, perhaps personal or specialist, but for which it is seemingly thought worth sacrificing an important principle.
  My own view—and I know that my right hon. Friend subscribes to it—is that
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  this freedom, perhaps more than any other, is indivisible. Except so far as the ordinary decencies and accepted habits of our society demand self-restraint, it must be complete or it is a mockery, a sham freedom. Taste is the arbiter of the limits beyond which it must not trespass.
  Dr. Summerskill: What about licence?
  Mr. Thompson: Having said that, I acknowledge tonight, as I have acknowledged before, that this honourable House is the forum for debates of opinion and of fact. The right hon. Lady is right to bring here her misgivings and her prejudices.
  I want to say a word about the programmes themselves. These are controversial programmes. That description, I think, is not in doubt, although I part very widely from the description of the programmes which the right hon. Lady used, as I part a very long way from her in the disdain, amounting to contempt. which she expressed in her opinion of the viewers and the general public in their capacity either to discriminate in this or, having made a discriminatory choice, to behave like adult citizens when they have done so. That is not my assessment of the capacity of my fellow men and women to judge for themselves and arrange their conduct in the light of that judgment.
  These are controversial programmes. Indeed, the British Medical Journal. which has already been quoted tonight, acknowledges that there are two schools of medical opinion about them, leaving aside the opinion of the general public. I hope that it will not come as a revelation to the right hon. Lady to learn that, as far as I can judge, after close examination of the situation, her side of the medical argument is not unanimously supported by the rest of the medical opinion available either to the B.B.C. or to my right hon. Friend.
  As my right hon. Friend said yesterday in answer to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (Sir I. Clark Hutchison), the Royal College of Surgeons, the Royal College of Physicians and the College of General Practitioners have all expressed themselves as being in favour of the presentation of programmes of this kind. Since the appearance of the programmes, those

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  colleges have expressed themselves as being in approval of the continuation of this very series which is now in dispute between the right hon. Lady and the B.B.C. Since seeing the programmes, the Royal College of Nursing has expressed its approval of them.
  The right hon. Lady was able to quote a number of letters. I hope that she will not think it objectionable of me to tell her that the B.B.C. has also been the recipient of some letters since these programmes began to appear. Out of the 422 letters which the B.B.C. had received up to this afternoon, 400 were in favour of the programmes and 22 against. All the Corporation's viewer sampling—so far as we can accept that as having the appropriate amount of precision—shows that the viewers are nine out of ten in favour of the continuation of this kind of programme rather than an interruption of it at the behest of those who think it wrong.
  The right hon. Lady was able to quote a newspaper correspondent who expressed himself as having been troubled by the programme. I ought to tell her that I have with me a very large number of clippings from newspapers all over the country almost entirely in support of the B.B.C.'s policy in presenting this kind of programme.
  The medical opinion which the B.B.C. was able to sound, both before the presentation of the programme and afterwards, is largely in favour of the B.B.C.'s policy and contrary to the view expressed by the right hon. Lady.
  It is true that for its own reasons the B.B.C.—the Corporation must be the judge—did not consult the British Medical Association. I do not think that my right hon. Friend is called upon to express an opinion on the rights and wrongs of that. In these things the B.B.C. must have its complete freedom until it acts in some outrageous way, and so far there has never been any need for my right hon. Friend or any of his predecessors to feel that there was a danger of that.
  The Corporation did not consult the B.M.A. Supposing it had consulted the B.M.A. and supposing that the B.M.A. had expressed the opinion which now appears in the journal of the Association, was the B.B.C. then to allow the British Medical Association to have the
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  power of veto—because that is what it would mean—over its proposals? Is the British Medical Association to be able to decide what is good for the public and what is not? Is it the B.M.A.'s judgment on which we are to rely rather than the judgment of these other distinguished medical authorities? The right hon. Lady will see, when she considers this matter, that she would be placing both the British Medical Association and the British Broadcasting Corporation in an impossible position.
  My own opinion, and I am happy to say that my right hon. Friend subscribes to it, is that the programmes are courageous and have been presented with great professional skill by the medical and surgical people involved—and all are to be congratulated—and with great professional skill by the programme producers themselves. I have seen some of the programmes and have greatly admired what I have seen. I believe that they will do good rather than harm, although there may be some neurotic or hypochondriac who will react badly to what is done—that applies to some other films and presentations on the B.B.C.
  On the whole, if one person is advised by these programmes to seek early opinion on a suspected or feared condition and if one life is saved or one illness shortened, then the B.B.C. will have cause to congratulate itself not only on its courage, but on the success of the whole series of programmes. If that happens, the B.B.C. will be able to claim that it has been instrumental in putting understanding in place of fear, information in place of mystery and guidance where there was only doubt.
  11.5 p.m.
  Mr. Wedgwood Benn: In the remaining moment, I want to dissociate myself from the views expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) and to explain that, although she spoke from the Front Bench, her views do not represent Labour Party policy. I agree very strongly with what the Minister has said. Possibly the B.B.C. under-rates the power of television, and that is a problem which the whole community has still to face.
  Television is such a tremendous power in the community that all hon.

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  Members and members of the medical and other professions are very worried about its impact. But it would be disastrous if we were to seek to limit the freedom of the broadcasting authorities in matters of this kind, and even more disastrous if we were to limit output of television programmes to the level thought suitable to a mental patient in a mental hospital which had a television set.
  I welcome the way in which television has stripped off the mystique that surrounds medicine and stripped off the
  700
  mystique which surrounds politics and presented to the people the information on which they can reach an independent decision about political, medical and other matters. I hope that one day, before too long, this country will see a commission set up to examine the impact of television on our society. I believe that such a commission will show that the effects of television have been almost entirely beneficial.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at seven minutes past Eleven o'clock.

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  Motoring Offences (C.D. Cars)
  Motoring Offences (C.D. Cars)
  Mrs. Katarzyna Slacowska (Residence Permit)
  Mrs. Katarzyna Slacowska (Residence Permit)
  Demonstrators, Downing Street (Incidents)
  Demonstrators, Downing Street (Incidents)
  Joaquim Perez-Selles
  Joaquim Perez-Selles
  Shops (Sunday Openings)
  Shops (Sunday Openings)
  Crimes of Violence (Victims)
  Crimes of Violence (Victims)
  Accused Persons (Drugs)
  Accused Persons (Drugs)
  Aircraft (Nuclear Weapons)
  Aircraft (Nuclear Weapons)
  Police (Pensions)
  Police (Pensions)
  Mailbag Robbery
  Mailbag Robbery
  Election Deposit
  Election Deposit
  Departmental Staff (Wages and Salaries)
  Departmental Staff (Wages and Salaries)
  Scotland (Secretary of State's Visit)
  Scotland (Secretary of State's Visit)
  Stag-hunting
  Stag-hunting
  University Students (Behaviour)
  University Students (Behaviour)
COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  Teachers and Nurses (Exchanges)
  Teachers and Nurses (Exchanges)
  Commonwealth Economic Committee
  Commonwealth Economic Committee
  Bechuanaland
  Bechuanaland
  Ghana (Volta Project)
  Ghana (Volta Project)
EDUCATION
  School Meals (Voluntary Institutions)
  School Meals (Voluntary Institutions)
  New Schools and Building Extensions, Wales
  New Schools and Building Extensions, Wales
  Schoolchildren (Extended Education)
  Schoolchildren (Extended Education)
  ANGLO-AMERICAN CONSULTATIONS (ECONOMIC AFFAIRS)
  ANGLO-AMERICAN CONSULTATIONS (ECONOMIC AFFAIRS)
  SUEZ CANAL
  SUEZ CANAL
  HONG KONG (GERMAN CONSUL-GENERAL)
  HONG KONG (GERMAN CONSUL-GENERAL)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  World Health Organisation (Record of Diseases)
  World Health Organisation (Record of Diseases)
  Prescriptions (Cost)
  Prescriptions (Cost)
EMPLOYMENT
  Unemployment
  Unemployment
SCOTLAND
  Lanark—Hamilton Road (Improvements)
  Lanark—Hamilton Road (Improvements)
  Administrative Tribunals and Inquiries (Report)
  Administrative Tribunals and Inquiries (Report)
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Britannia Aircraft Accident, Bristol
  Britannia Aircraft Accident, Bristol
  Departmental Staff (Overtime)
  Departmental Staff (Overtime)
SHIPPING
  Suez Canal
  Suez Canal
CIVIL AVIATION
  Southampton Flying Boat Terminal (Passenger Facilities)
  Southampton Flying Boat Terminal (Passenger Facilities)
  Independent Operators (Traffic)
  Independent Operators (Traffic)
Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I have to inform your Lordships that as there are only two Starred Questions down on the Order Paper for Tuesday, March 4, the House will not be meeting on that day.

EGYPT: COMPENSATION CLAIMS
3.5 p.m.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will issue a statement showing what is the present state of negotiations between Her Majesty's Government and/or British nationals and the Egyptian Government concerning claims:

(a) arising before the revolution,

(b) for seizure of the property of British nationals,

(c) for losses suffered by shareholders in the Suez Canal Company owing to the premature termination of the concession,

(d) for the loss of stores in the Canal Base,

(e) on other grounds,

and whether Her Majesty's Government will also give an account in as much detail as possible of counterclaims by the Egyptian Government against the British Government and/or nationals.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF GOSFORD): My Lords, talks on a financial settlement have been resumed in Rome this week between delegations representing Her Majesty's Government
1020
and the Egyptian Government and I regret to say that while these are in progress it would not be appropriate for me to make any statement.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I understand the difficulty, but the public are also in a difficulty. I put the Question down in detail, because I think that some of the information which has been vouchsafed—officially, apparently—should be corrected. First of all, may (with the indulgence of your Lordships, because I have done my best to put the matter in detail upon the Order Paper) ask about the evicted British nationals? The Government have stated that their claim is for £145 million, but I see in the Press that these people are refusing food at the camps because they are given only 15s. a week out of unemployment pay—is that correct?
Secondly, as regards the shareholders in the Company, of course, that is an international affair, but we have abandoned what the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor said—namely, any attempt to make an international issue of this; but are we going to pay for that part of the damage which we did to the Canal and enter into any inquiry? The third question is in regard to the Canal Base. Have the Government any idea of what was the value of that Base? I do not know whether there was a capital assessment of Government property, but the noble and gallant Earl, Lord Alexander of Tunis, told me in a debate in your Lordships' House that we were spending £2 million a year in keeping up the Base, restoring it and so forth. Fourthly, on what grounds is it correct to say that the military expenditure that we incurred was £54 million? Finally, as regards the Egyptian claims, there is no need for delay there. The claims have been stated by the Government to be £71 million. The aggregate of these claims is very great, and it is useless to say that negotiations, which, so far as one can see from The Times this morning, are to be quite bootless, are going on and on that ground refuse information about the loss caused to the public by the Suez adventure.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, while these talks are going on it would not be in anybody's interest for Her Majesty's Government to make a statement. As regards the hunger strike, I

1021
have no information. I did see a Press report but I know no more than the noble Viscount about that matter. If he would like me to investigate this, I will do so, but I had not considered that to be part of the Question and was not prepared to answer it. As for the value of British equipment and stores in the Canal Base, I think that the best thing I can do is to refer the noble Viscount to the statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for War on January 22, 1957.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, what amount did he state, because I did not include that?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: It was somewhat more than £60 million. I regret that I cannot give any further answer to the noble Viscount.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, is it true, as stated in the Press this morning, that all claims have been put together globally—that is to say, that the attack on Port Said, for which Egypt claims £71 million, is being lumped together and considered along with the case of the businessmen who have been evicted? That is the first question. As to the first part of the noble Earl's answer, does he mean to say that the Foreign Office disclaim all responsibility for the fate of these unfortunate people who have been evicted from their property as a direct result of the Government's attack on Egypt?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, to take the last question first, the Foreign Office certainly do not disclaim any responsibility. Nevertheless, the fact is that, technically speaking, these refugees in hostels are the responsibility of the Home Office. I have already told the noble Viscount that if he wants further information about this particular incident, if in fact it did occur, I will gladly do my best to obtain it for him. With regard to the first part of the noble Viscount's supplementary question, I do not know to which report he is referring. The only one I know about is the report in The Times.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Yes, that is the one.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: I should like to say that that particular report is highly misleading.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I am much obliged to the noble Earl. It is not news but it is interesting to have it from the Government Bench.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I must apologise to the noble Lord because I had not quite reached my place when he was answering my noble friend's Question. I was glad to see that my noble friend Lord Stansgate had put as his first item, claims arising before the revolution. Some of us have had large correspondence with those who have been waiting for five or six years for settlement of their business claims. Surely these claims should be taken separately from the other matters. These men and women have a good civil claim. Can we not have some idea of how they are being treated at the present time, and whether some advance could not be made to them? Some of them are in a very different business position to-day from that in which they were formerly, owing to the unwarranted action of the Egyptian Government at that time.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I regret to say that I cannot give the noble Viscount any information. These talks are in progress, and it is quite contrary to all practice to give information about talks which are going on, if there is a possibility that by doing so those talks would be prejudiced.
LORD KILLEARN: My Lords, I also must apologise to my noble friend Lord Gosford for being a little late in arriving, but arising out of his Answer, which I understood to be "no comment", or the equivalent of no comment, and referring especially to paragraph (b) of the noble Viscount's Question—that is, seizure of the property of British nationals—may I put the following supplementary question? Can the noble Earl give an assurance that the claims of British subjects for full compensation for property seized by the Egyptian Government will be fully protected in any agreement come to with Egypt, at Rome or elsewhere?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are doing their fullest to protect all British nationals in this case.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, in that case, why does the warden of the

1023
hostel, according to the Press, inform these unfortunate refugees that they are very lucky, because they are not as badly off as the unemployed?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I think the noble Viscount will appreciate that that was, so far as I know, purely a Press statement. I have no knowledge of that and no information to give him.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this is the first of four Orders relating to Sunday cinemas. The Orders are in the usual form. There are no points to which I need draw your Lordships' attention. I beg to move that this Order be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Brighouse, be approved.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: I beg to move that this Order be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Morley, be approved.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: I beg to move that this Order be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Stevenage, be approved.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: I beg to move that this Order be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Woodbridge, be approved.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

WATER BILL [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
3.12 p.m.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. This short measure will enable us to get rid of two more Defence Regulations. I hope that it will commend itself to your Lordships for that reason, as well as for its own merits. May I first explain briefly to your Lordships some of the background which, in the Government's view, makes permanent powers of this kind necessary? As we know, serious droughts are fortunately rare in this country. We do not suffer the great losses of stocks and crops as do countries like Australia. But when we do have droughts they cause a great deal of inconvenience and even some hardship. The Bill is designed to give permanent powers for maintaining public water supplies in such exceptional conditions.
Your Lordships may wonder why the authorities responsible for public water supplies—that is, the statutory water undertakers—should not make sure that they are always able to keep up supplies, however great the drought. But to provide and maintain sources and storage for this purpose, which might be required once, say, in twenty years or so, would mean tying up large amounts of capital, with a consequent increase in the cost of water in all years. It would also use a good deal of land for reservoirs that could better go on being used for farming.
We are, as your Lordships know, encouraging water undertakers to amalgamate into larger and more efficient units. A dozen or so more undertakers have amalgamated since the last time we discussed this matter in your Lordships' House on a Motion by my noble friend Lord Albemarle, and more demises are on the way. We may expect the undertakings to be able to deal with all normal and some abnormal years, but the premium for insuring all undertakings against the worst possible drought would be too heavy.
The worst droughts in this century occurred in 1921 and in 1933–34. In 1934 the shortages became so serious that Parliament was asked to pass an emergency measure—the Water Supplies

1025
(Emergency Shortage Orders) Act, 1934. This empowered Ministers to make orders enabling the water undertakers to get more water. The Act was a temporary one and was in force for just over eighteen months. The Government of the day were criticised for not having permanent powers available so as to avoid the need for rushing emergency legislation through. The Act, however, was not renewed.
During and since the war, Ministers have been able to deal with shortages of water, however caused, by making orders under the Defence Regulations. Defence Regulation 50A has been used to make orders allowing water undertakers to take water from emergency sources. Entry on land and the carrying out of works has required further authority under Defence Regulation 50. For example, an order to take supplies from a river by means of a temporary intake would have to be made under both Regulations.
Defence Regulation 56 has been used to relax restrictions and obligations resting on water undertakers. For example, when an impounding reservoir is built, a stream is dammed and water collected behind the dam. Under their normal powers, the water undertakers are then required to send down a certain amount of water from the reservoir to maintain the flow in the stream. This is what is called compensation water ". It will be considerably less than the biggest flow in flood times but a good deal more than the minimum flow in very dry weather.
The water undertakers' normal powers may also restrict the amount of water they may pump from a river and they prescribe the flow that must be left in it. Requirements of this kind have been relaxed under Defence Regulation 56 and so also, in England and Wales, have limits on water rates and charges. Variations in water rates and charges are now dealt with under the Water Act, 1945. Seven orders for making extra water available, which it has not yet been possible to get rid of by making more permanent arrangements, and 88 orders authorising increased charges, are still in existence.
In more recent years the Defence Regulations have been used only to deal with drought. The dry weather of 1949, 1955, 1956 and the spring of 1957, though not
1026
so serious or prolonged as that of 1921 and 1933–34 caused some strain on water undertakers. During the war almost all new work was stopped, and capital investment restrictions have prevented water undertakers from making up all the lost ground in time. But the new works which are being completed every year are rapidly reducing the gap between supply and demand in moderately dry years.
Clearly, the Defence Regulations could not be relied on for ever and the question the Government have had to consider is whether it is right to take permanent powers. Much has happened in the world of water supplies since we had the temporary Act of 1934. We have good cause to be proud of what has been done towards bringing piped water to all but the most remote areas of this country. Statutory water undertakers now supply very many people who used until recently to depend on their own wells. Farmers in many cases use supplies from the mains for watering their stock and for things like milk cooling. I do not think it is generally realised that 95 per cent. of the population of Great Britain now have piped water supplies. In rural areas the figures are 90 per cent. supplied in England, 80 per cent. in Wales and 86 per cent. in Scotland. This, I think, contrasts favourably with, say, the figure of 66 per cent. of the total population in the United States of America.
In town and country alike, the building of new houses with bathrooms and hot water systems is naturally leading to the use of more water in the home. New industries which use large quantities of good quality water, such as chemical and plastics industries, have developed since the war. It is. I think, worth remembering that, with all the restrictions, more than £240 million has been spent, since the war, on water supplies in Great Britain. But because more people now depend on public supplies, industry and agriculture, as well as the town housewife, are likely to suffer if water undertakings cannot meet their commitments.
The procedure of the Water Act, 1945, and the Water (Scotland) Act, 1946, by which permanent works are authorised is too long-winded for dealing with

1027
drought emergencies. It cannot be completed in less than six weeks and, if there are objections, is very much more lengthy, by which time it is probably raining "cats and dogs." The Government have decided, after looking at the use which has been made of the Defence Regulations, that permanent powers should be available. This Bill has therefore been drafted to provide powers under which the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Secretary of State for Scotland will be able to make orders temporarily authorising water undertakers to get more water in various ways.
The Bill broadly follows the lines of the 1934 Act which, though passed in such a hurry, proved quite serviceable. Clause 1 allows my right honourable friends to make orders on the application of the appropriate statutory water undertakers. The Minister concerned has to be satisfied that a shortage of water supplies exists or is threatened because of an exceptional shortage of rain. The Bill does not use the word "drought," because, in the meteorological sense, a drought occurs after a comparatively short period without rain but in the context of this Bill I use the term "drought" in the sense of a shortage of rain so prolonged as to cause or threaten a breakdown in water supplies. This could occur when the rainfall was below average for a long period, without there being a drought in the meteorological sense. Even in a wet summer there might be a shortage in areas dependent on underground supplies, if the preceding winter had been dry.
An order under Clause 1 may authorise the undertakers to take water from a source not normally used—it may be a river, lake, stream or borehole. An order may also vary restrictions or obligations resting on the undertakers as to the amount of water that may be pumped from a river or the amount of compensation water to be discharged from their reservoirs. Supplementary provisions may be included in orders for such matters as entry on land at not less than seven days' notice, and the carrying out of works. In deciding whether to make orders the Ministers must consider the interests of everyone concerned with the conservation or use of the water for agriculture, fisheries, industry, navigation or, indeed, any other purpose. Orders
1028
made under this clause will operate for a period of not more than six months and, by Clause 4, may be extended for a further period, but not so as to exceed one year altogether. Penalties are provided if water undertakers contravene certain provisions of an order.
The First Schedule sets out the procedure to be followed in applying for and making orders under this and the next clause. Under the Defence Regulations, no procedure was laid down for ensuring that everyone concerned was informed and given an opportunity to make representations. In practice, Ministers have insisted on notice being given, on applications being advertised, and, where there were objections, on holding an inquiry or hearing.
This procedure cannot, however, be so satisfactory as providing by legislation for a definite procedure under which everyone knows what his rights and duties are. The procedure set out in the First Schedule is similar to that for orders under the Water Acts, but allows for more rapid action. Advertisement is now once and not twice. Advertisement and notice allow seven days, instead of twenty-eight for the making of objections. A hearing may be arranged instead of a public local inquiry. Incidentally, the orders are not subject to special Parliamentary procedure.
Your Lordships may ask how the procedure fits in with the accepted recommendations of the Franks Committee. It will not, of course, be possible in an emergency procedure like this to provide all the safeguards envisaged, but I would ask your Lordships to remember that this is a Bill to give temporary powers. The orders made under it cannot permanently deprive anyone of his land or rights. The Bill does provide a definite procedure where none existed before. The Second Schedule to the Bill provides for compensation to be paid to people injuriously affected by the taking of water or by the use of land. The provisions follow the same lines as those of the 1934 Act. Under the provisions of Clause 2, my right honourable friends will be able to make orders, if necessary, authorising water undertakers to supply water by means of stand-pipes or tanks in the streets. Clause 3 revokes Defence Regulations 50A and 56. Defence Regulation 50, to which I have already referred, will

1029
be revoked by the Land Powers (Defence) Bill, which is now before another place. Existing orders could not all be replaced immediately, and they may remain until March 31, 1960, to give time for them to be replaced by orders made under the Water Act, 1945. Clauses 4, 5, and 6 are formal. I hope that your Lordships will agree that this is a useful measure. It dispenses with yet more Defence Regulations, and it fills an obvious gap in our water legislation. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Mancroft.)
3.26 p.m.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, has explained, in his accustomed capable manner, that this is principally, as is indeed the case, a procedural Bill. It is part of the movement away from the Defence Regulations, as the source of enabling power, to definitive legislation by way of Acts of Parliament. I think the noble Lord can rest assured that we on this side of your Lordships' House will do nothing to impede or delay the free passage of the Bill.
The noble Lord made some general references to the question of the supply, use and distribution of water in this country, and there was, of course, the impressive and comprehensive debate on the whole subject in May of last year. That does not preclude speakers in your Lordships' House this afternoon from referring to some of the general questions in connection with water supply, especially as the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, in winding up the debate in May of last year, expressed regret—which I think was generally shared—that there were not more frequent discussions and considerations of this question in your Lordships' House.
This Bill is really mis-named. It is not a Water Bill: it is a procedural Bill. It does not add, so far as I can see from the Memorandum or an examination of its clauses, to any of the powers possessed by the Minister; nor does it do anything to face up to, and still less to remedy, the serious problems in regard to the conservation of water resources, the using of our resources and their distribution. One could riot help feeling somewhat encouraged at the figures which the noble Lord gave as regards supply, especially in lie rural areas, but it is still the case
1030
that in some parts of the countryside there remains a lamentable lack of water supplies, affecting not only cottages and residences but, as a recent Report has shown in another connection, quite a number of rural schools.
Nor, so far as can be judged, has there been any appreciable progress since May of last year in the re-grouping of the many smaller water undertakings. There are, as your Lordships know, in excess of 1,000 water undertakings in this country. It has long been recognised that that is much too large a number and that there is an urgent case for regrouping these undertakings. Indeed, as far back as 1945, your Lordships will recall, the Coalition Government issued a White Paper, and in that White Paper it was stated that there should be a national water policy—and here I quote:
"to ensure that all available resources are used to the best advantage and to secure a proper distribution".
There is a good deal of perturbation in parts of the country at the permanent fall in the level of rivers as a result of the increasing demand, and indeed the increasing user, of water, especially by industry.
I think that one is entitled to ask the noble Lord to tell the House, when he replies, what the Minister is doing to meet the problems, the growing problems, and in many cases the urgent problems, of our water supplies. He has pretty wide powers under the Act of 1945, and, as the late Lord Waverley said in the debate in May last year, it would be interesting to know whether the Minister is effectively using those powers in a constructive manner or whether he is relying too much upon the Central Advisory Committee and upon a number of subcommittees which have been appointed either from the Central Advisory Committee or from elsewhere. In September, 1956, the Minister issued a circular to water undertakings urging them to consider questions of re-grouping. It is known—indeed, I think it was confirmed recently by the Minister himself when speaking to a conference—that very little has been done under that circular. I think the view will be generally shared that it is no good the Minister relying upon mildly hortatory injunctions to the many small water authorities. It is no good even referring to the fact, which is

1031
the case, that the Minister has power, in default of voluntary action, to take action himself. Even that threat, if it be a threat, has produced, so far as one can ascertain, practically no result, having regard to the number of undertakings which exist.
Moreover, the undertakers, small or large, supplying water in areas where atomic plants or plants associated with atomic energy are being established, are very perturbed, having regard to the relatively enormous quantities of water which are used and consumed by such establishments, as to the—not ultimate, but almost the proximate effect upon their position and their responsibilities and liabilities for supplying water. We were told by the noble Lord that since the war something like £240 million (I think that was the figure) has been spent on water undertakings in this country. That is a very impressive figure, but it is not so impressive when it is related to what has been spent on electricity, on gas, and on atomic energy. I should be the last to criticise the capital expenditure on either one or all of those activities, but I think we are at times inclined to overlook the important part that water plays in the carrying on of those activities and the increasing part it plays in the development of industry, leaving aside the need for the preservation, conservation and proper distribution of water for the health of the people. What we need is a new Water Act in which the problems of conservation, control and user are dealt with, and also—and this is important—in which powers to prevent avoidable waste of water are given to the appropriate Minister, with some feeling of assurance that the Minister will exercise the powers given to him.
With those general remarks I should like to pass to one particular provision in the Bill, and I suppose that in this connection I should declare an interest. No doubt as an undeserved tribute to my normal temperance, I have become a member of the Metropolitan Water Board. The Board have enjoyed for some time power to fill their reservoirs above the prescribed limit in cases of drought or near-drought. That power was conferred under Defence Regulation 56. The power itself under the order, which is entitled the Metropolitan Water
1032
Board (User of Reservoirs) Order, 1956, expires in July of this year. The power has been used by the Board on three occasions when dry summers made it necessary that the reservoirs should be fuller than is prescribed under the normal provisions of control.
The effect of being able, in case of need, to fill the reservoirs beyond the prescribed limit is that the amount of the reduction of the flow over Teddington Weir is reduced and that, of course, is an important consideration. The Metropolitan Water Board cannot go below the prescribed flow except with the consent of the Port of London Authority and the London County Council. If this power is not renewed, if the Metropolitan Water Board will not be able to do what they are at present able to do, fill the reservoirs beyond the prescribed limit, then it means that, in case of drought or near-drought, the flow over Teddington Weir will be pro tanto diminished.
I cannot appreciate why, if this order was justified, if the Minister of the day was prepared to agree to it, and indeed to make it, and with the knowledge that it has been usefully used during the period, it should now be the view of the Government that no such power should be granted. Having given indirect notice to the noble Lord that I intended to raise this detailed question, I would say that unless he can give me a satisfactory answer this afternoon I greatly hope that he will consult with the Minister and that he may be able to indicate on the Committee stage that the Government will be prepared to amend the provisions of the Bill so that an order of this character can be made at the instance and on the representations of the Metropolitan Water Board. With those general comments, I restate the fact that we on this side will do nothing to impede the passage of this Bill.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I wonder whether he would mind clarifying a point which I may have taken up incorrectly? I think the noble Lord implied that the atomic energy power stations required an excess quantity of water. So far as atomic energy requirements of water are needed to make up their boiler water and cooler water, I would point out that the amount is no

1033
greater than any ordinary steam or power station requires. I should like clarification, if he can give it me, on that point.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, I must confess that I cannot claim to be more than normally informed as to the requirements of atomic energy installations. I may be wrong. If so, I am in company with a large number of people, because I think it is generally felt—it may be only an assumption—that these installations consume much larger quantities of water than an ordinary power station or a comparable installation. If I am wrong, so much the better.
3.42 p.m.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords. I rise only to say that the purpose of this Bill seems to enjoy the unusual distinction of being approved by all the local government associations—at least, it has been so far. I think it is felt reasonable that, in exceptional circumstances, the Minister should be possessed of exceptional powers, and it seems reasonable, too, that these powers should be exercised under ordinary law rather than under Defence Regulations. The protection in the proposed Schedule against the misuse of these powers is also considered reasonable.
The question of what the Bill omits to do, however, opens up a much larger subject which I am afraid I have not come prepared to discuss. I sympathise with the noble Lord in his impatience, as I understood it, that sometimes the procedure in regard to water supplies seems to go extraordinarily slowly in the case of joint schemes and new schemes. I think, however, that although it is always attractive to wish that a dictator would take the whole matter in his hands quickly and put everything right, when one reflects, one realises that these schemes often cause less friction and probably are more effectively carried through by the ordinary democratic procedure of consultation and getting general agreement, even though, as I have said, the process often seems interminable. However, so far as this Bill goes I certainly hope that it will be passed.
3.45 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I always wish that when I was quite small and had to take a powder Lord Mancroft had been there to administer it. In intro
1034
ducing this Bill, he tells us that we are now shaking off the Defence Regulations, when, in point of fact, instead of carrying the pack on our backs we are now actually having it grafted into our bodies. But, like my noble friend Lord Gage, I realise that in the circumstances in which we are placed some such Bill as this is essential.
Before entirely concurring, however, I should like to say now why it ought to draw our attention to the importance of the whole problem. I remember well when the Water Act was passed. I hoped for great things from that Act. Shortly afterwards I had to sit on a Committee on a Water Bill, and during the course of the Bill we were told that out of the whole of the Peak District, the most prolific water-bearing district in the country, there was only one small unpolluted source, which was the little river Manifold. All the other great rivers were polluted. The rivers of Leicestershire were so polluted that they could not be brought into use. That was the situation at that time. I think something has been done since which I will mention in a moment.
There is another side to this question. When I was a young man anyone providing a water supply for a house and a family always reckoned on twelve gallons a day per head. During the sittings of that Committee I worked out that the normal consumption of a family in a modern house was something like thirty-six gallons a head. Our need for water is growing greater and greater every day—by that, I mean the need for ordinary domestic supplies. In addition, our powers of pollution are much greater, because detergents are used by practically every family and every laundry. So not only is our supply of water very restricted, but our destruction of water is much greater.
Noble Lords opposite will remember that when their Government was in power it passed Water Act after Water Act, and I think they must now reflect rather painfully that those Acts have been largely inoperative. The reason is simple. Most cities and people who pollute water do so under the proviso in the 1876 Act. If you come to a modern city and say to those concerned, "You must cleanse your water supply. This must go forward ", they can quite properly say, "We have done nothing against the law. We

1035
have complied absolutely with the law and, if you are going to put this heavy capital expenditure upon us, then the Government must be prepared to give a substantial contribution." It seems to me that in order to tackle this question, the Government will need to provide a large sum of money, and, as time goes on and that expenditure is delayed, the amount will increase more and more. We must all be aware of that, and I think it is a most serious problem which ought to receive more attention than it does. At the same time, this Bill is concerned with dealing only with an emergency, and I realise that it is a Bill that we must have.
There is, however, this one point of detail on the Bill to which I should like to draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft. The Bill, in the Schedule, talks about an "arbitrator". In Scotland for a long time we have preferred a much better form of English. We use the word "arbiter" and we like to stick to that; and in most Bills dealing with an arbitrator in England there is a provision that in Scotland there is to be an arbiter. I do not see that in this Bill, and I suggest that on the Committee stage we should go back to what is a better form of English—or, at any rate, of Scots.
3.52 p.m.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, when I first looked at this Bill I felt, like the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, that this was a question of casting out motes and getting beams, because we are told that we get extra freedom when we go away from Defence Regulations and saddle ourselves with a Statute in their place. But when I heard the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, introduce the Bill I changed my view, because I then saw more clearly the real purpose of the Bill and its necessity. I feel there is no doubt that this Bill fills a need; that it is wanted, and that it will be welcomed not only by local authorities but by the water industry in general.
In introducing the Bill, however, the noble Lord made one very important statement on water policy, and emphasised something which some of us, as individuals in the water industry, have long thought about—the wrongness of over-insurance in this matter. He asked why a Bill of this kind should be necessary at all, and whether, in a perfect
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world, there ought not to be sufficient supplies ready for maximum consumption in the time of minimum rainfall. The noble Lord emphasised that that would be over-insurance; but in a sense it does adumbrate a rather new thought in the water industry, because we in that industry have been accustomed always to try to provide for what is known as the three-dry-year period, which in fact is almost the driest and shortest time of supply that one can possibly get. It is perfectly true, however, that as more and more land is taken up for reservoirs and more and more water has to be taken from rivers, we must be careful not to over-insure and so waste the resources of money and nature that we have in this small country. It becomes obviously necessary, therefore, that we should have some statutory provision for dealing with the emergency and crisis which, even in the best of planning can never be absolutely avoided.
In introducing the Bill, the noble Lord made another statement which caused a little trouble to me at first, because he said that nowhere in the Bill was the word "drought" used. It is used on the front page of the Explanatory Memorandum, of course, but is not in the Bill itself. There a drought is called "an exceptional shortage of rain": which leads me to my next point—that if we are not to have these emergency powers applied, when there is a statutory drought (and lawyers already know what a "statutory drought" is) but only in times of "exceptional shortage of rain", while that is very right and proper, it means that under the Bill water undertakings will not be able to get orders for emergency measures, as they have in the past, when it is found that there is a temporary shortage of water due not to any drought, statutory or otherwise, but to the fact that the undertaking has not made sufficient provision for the rising consumption in their area. I believe that that will be a great spur towards the re-grouping that we all want to see brought about, for an authority will no longer be able to get emergency power under a Defence Regulation (I believe it was Number 56) to make an additional abstraction from a river or source, or reduce a compensation flow, merely because of their own lack of foresight. The Bill provides for exceptional shortage of rain but not for

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exceptional shortage of foresight, which I believe is a very important point.
The other point to which I should like to draw attention, because I do not think anybody else has done so in the debate so far, is the question of river boards. I am sure we shall all agree that river boards are becoming of ever greater importance, and their close co-operation with water undertakings must be ever closer as time goes on. I do not believe that river boards will really be affected by this Act. They will be in no worse position under the Minister's orders under this Act than they were under orders under the Defence Regulations; but there is just the question of the notice to be given. As I read the First Schedule in conjunction with Clause 2 of the Bill, notice will be given to a river board only where the water is being taken from a source or discharge of compensation water is involved. Those are obvious cases when a water board must have notice, but, as I read it, the very next item in the Schedule—"Orders which authorise the execution of any works "—does not provide that the Minister will be under any obligation to give the water board any notice. I wonder whether that is not a point that we shall have to consider as the Bill proceeds, because I am not sure that water boards would not be right in asking for notice to be given when emergency works are to be done on their rivers.
Another point to be considered with regard to river boards is whether they ought not to be entitled to notice not only when abstraction is to be made from their river or there is to be any alteration of a statutory flow but also when some source is being tapped under these Emergency Orders which ultimately might seriously affect, though not directly (and perhaps not obviously to the authority obtaining the order), the flow of their river. I do not think there are any other specific points that I wish to raise. I gave the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, very short notice that I should raise those two points. I have no doubt that your Lordships will see fit to give this Bill the Second Reading which I think it deserves.
4.0 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, before I begin the few words that I wish to say to your Lordships, I must declare a personal interest in the Bill, because I am
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a director of a statutory water company. Secondly, I should like to apologise to the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading for not having been here when he made his speech, but unfortunately I was detained outside. There are two reasons why I believe that all of us who are involved in water undertakings will approve of this Bill: first, because I believe it is perfectly proper that what has been done in the past under Defence Regulations—which, after all, were purely temporary affairs—should now be turned into Statute Law; and, secondly, because the powers which this Bill gives will be extremely valuable to water undertakings.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Latham, and the noble Earl, Lord Waldegrave, in that I trust this Bill will give more impetus to the re-grouping of undertakings. The point which the noble Earl, Lord Waldegrave, made, that it will be possible to get water to meet a defect of nature but not one clue to neglect by the undertaking, will do a great deal to encourage the minor undertakings to come together among themselves. My final point concerns a matter which I do not think is a real source of danger. In the past, the powers under the Defence Regulations have not been used to any wide extent, and we trust that the Minister will not allow them to be used too much in the future. With those few words I think I can recommend your Lordships to give this Bill a Second Reading.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, if I may rise again for a moment, I also should have declared an interest, in that I am a director of a statutory water authority.
4.2 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I rise to associate myself completely with the observations of my noble friend Lord Latham. The purpose of this Bill is quite clearly set out in the Explanatory Memorandum: it is
"to provide permanent legislation to enable the Minister … to give statutory water undertakers temporary powers,"
and the Bill takes the place of the temporary legislation of the Defence Regulations which exist to-day. That is the sole purpose of the Bill. In so far as that is the purpose, I approve of it. The noble and learned Viscount the Lord

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Chancellor will, I am sure, agree, because for several yeas now I have had the opportunity of drawing his attention to the fact that these Emergency Regulations, which the present Government had committed themselves to get rid of, still exist in substantial numbers. I welcome every effort to reduce that number. I find, as I always thought, that it is not such an easy undertaking as it seemed to be in 1951, before the present Government came into office. Even when this Bill is passed, there will still be a number of Regulations left, and I imagine that I shall not be entirely deprived of the opportunity of making the speech I normally make when these Regulations are extended for another year.
However, this Bill gives us the opportunity of discussing the general water situation of this country. As we are discussing Emergency Regulations, I would say that a water emergency is with us always. I do not remember a single summer when there has not been in some part of the country a water emergency. It seems to me very bad organisation of our resources that not only should we accept and recognise a permanent shortage of water somewhere in the country every year but should be actually legislating for it and asking for temporary measures to provide for something which we know is permanent. Moreover, as the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, pointed out, as did other noble Lords, the position is not likely to improve.
There is—and I am very glad to note it—an increasing demand for water. That arises partly, of course, as a result of an increasing demand by industry. But there is also an increasing domestic demand for water, first because of better housing, and also because of the provision of bathrooms for nearly every family. I understand from my noble friend that 90 per cent. of our population now have a water supply in their own homes; and that proportion is going to increase. Then the habit of doing the washing at home is increasing. Laundry bills are higher than they were, so that fewer people send their washing to the laundry and more do it at home. The result of that, naturally, is an increasing demand for water. There is also the fact of an increasing population; every year 250,000 more people use water.
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Furthermore, with this increasing demand there is a tendency for a decrease in supply as a result of pollution, the use of detergents and the increasing losses caused by industry. Next (this is something that has not been mentioned in to-day's debate). I believe there is an increasing waste of water. In these days, when people can turn on the tap and get as much water as they like, if one watches the position in most homes one sees that the amount of water wasted is appalling. Various remedies have been suggested, such as the possibility of the use of meters and making people pay according to their consumption. I am sure that there would be a considerable saving in the consumption of water if people had to pay according to the amount of water they consumed. I am not seriously putting that suggestion forward at this stage, because one would have to give much more consideration to its implications, and it would be a new feature in our domestic life if we had to pay for water directly in accordance with consumption. Nevertheless, there is undoubtedly a considerable waste.
Finally, there is a waste due to the multiplicity of authorities dealing with water. My noble friend Lord Latham pointed out that there were over 1.000 water authorities. That seems to me a shocking multiplicity of organisation. This country does not need over 1,000 water authorities to supply us with the water we require. I understand that three-quarters of them are public authorities, yet we have not hesitated to reduce the functions of public authorities where it has been thought to be necessary in the interests of efficiency; and I should have thought this was a case in which there ought to be considerable grouping of water authorities. Indeed, in my own view, and I believe in the view of my Party, there ought to be nationalisation of water supply in order to get the greatest amount of efficiency.
I raise these matters, which are not entirely relevant to the Bill, because, while we are not in any way opposing or wishing to delay this Bill, I should not like it to be thought that it really deals with the question of water supplies in this country. It does just what it purports to do in the first paragraph of the Explanatory Memorandum; it converts emergency, temporary Regulations into

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permanent ones; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, said in his picturesque language, instead of being tied up temporarily we are being tied up permanently. That is not exactly my idea of giving greater freedom to the people, but it is an illustration of the fact that some of the Regulations, at any rate, really were necessary. As noble Lords are discovering more and more, it has not been possible to repeal these Regulations. All that is being done in an increasing number of cases is to make them permanent. Nevertheless, I hope now that this Bill will be approved without further delay.
4.10 p.m.
LORD CLITHEROE: My Lords, I will not follow the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, on the general question of water supply, on which I should much like to address your Lordships on some other occasion, but I would say a word about this short Bill. When I first read it I had the opinion, like other noble Lords, that it was to end some statutory regulations, but I soon observed that it was merely making them permanent, so naturally I became somewhat anxious. I recognise that there is need for a Bill of this sort, but I want to make two points about it. First of all I think that as a result of this Bill there may be a tendency to encourage improvidence. That should be carefully watched, because some authorities who are poorer or worse placed than others may well decide to rely upon the terms of the Bill in times of shortage rather than make the provision which they really ought to make for supplies in their own areas. I hope that this Bill will not be used in any way to encourage such improvidence.
The second point I want to make is about non-statutory undertakings. The Bill talks only about statutory undertakings, but, as noble Lords will be well aware, a great many people in this country are supplied with water from non-statutory undertakings. I observe, from Clause 1 (b), that the Minister has authority
"for suspending or modifying, … any restriction or obligation to which the undertakers are subject as respects—
(i) the taking of water from any source",
from the point of view of non-statutory suppliers. What that means is that some neighbouring authority has the right
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under this Bill to ask the Minister to take water from a non-statutory undertaker, but a non-statutory undertaker has no right under this Bill to ask for aid from a statutory undertaker. I wonder whether perhaps my noble friend Lord Mancroft, either in his reply or probably at some later time, would give a little attention to that point.
4.14 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, as a consumer, thought that more capital should have been spent on water, and naturally we should all agree with him, whereas my noble friend Lord Waldegrave spoke of the dangers of over-insurance, and as a producer who has had to obtain the capital he strikes the more cautious note. The only answer is that we have been desperately short of capital, and if we had put it into water it would have meant taking it from some other pressing need. In as much as we are still short of capital, I believe that this is a good Bill, because it would enable the capital to be stretched in an emergency.
But why I rose to speak was to ask my noble friend Lord Mancroft a question about the seven-days' notice. In Clause 1, it is provided that seven days' notice has to be given to enter upon any land to take water or conduct works. In his speech on the Bill my noble friend mentioned an inquiry. I have not managed to find anything in the Bill about an inquiry, but if there is to be seven days' notice plus an inquiry, some fair time must elapse before action can take place. Of course, water undertakings must be expected to use foresight, but there are undertakings which are dependent on recent rainfall and recent flush of rivers.
Not very long ago my noble friend Lord Mancroft and I were jointly concerned in an emergency, when the water supply of a popular holiday district in North Cornwall ran practically right out. That was put right largely owing to the efforts of my noble friend, who was able to secure all manner of emergency measures and the co-operation of a neighbouring water authority which had sufficient water.
Through my noble friend's efforts, this authority was able to lay down temporary mains, down roads and across fields, and to pump a supply into the

1043
system of the deficient authority. I wonder how that emergency could have been tackled if seven days' notice plus an inquiry had had to be given before anything could be done. Furthermore, could this situation have been solved at all if there had been no co-operation between these two undertakings? If there really is a delay of this nature, as seems apparent from the Bill, then one can only surmise that authorities may look at making orders in advance against an emergency and probably not at the time, which is not a desirable thing. Perhaps my noble friend can set my mind at rest by saying that there is some other procedure whereby, in the event of a real emergency such as we jointly experienced, timely action can be taken.
LORD KINNAIRD: My Lords, I should like to say how much I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Clitheroe, has said, because it is the case in Scotland that large areas of land are provided with water either by private people or by private undertakings, certainly not by any statutory undertaking. I have not had time to study the Bill carefully, but I hope the noble Lord will bring the point up at a later stage.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am grateful to your Lordships for the friendly welcome you have given to this little Bill. I had no idea that so many Members of your Lordships' House were interested in water. A number of points have been raised, but I think we can deal with most of them, or look into them carefully, before Committee stage. Several points have been raised which we cannot possibly deal with on Committee stage because they have nothing whatever to do with the Bill; nevertheless I welcome them as interesting and a guide to my right honourable friend on the way in which your Lordships are thinking.
The principal point raised was that of re-grouping. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, rightly points out that there are nearly 1,000 undertakings in this country, and wrongly points out that the best way to make them most efficient is by nationalisation. I disagree with him, politely but very cordially. We are trying to make them more efficient within the bounds of existing legislation. I should like to tell your Lordships that there have been twelve more amalgamations
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since we last debated the matter and other discussions are going on. My right honourable friend is not dissatisfied with the progress which is being made.
I would adopt the idea of my noble friend Lord Gage, who did not favour dictatorship, and I think it is important that there should be time for negotiation. Many more proposals are expected to come before my right honourable friend within the next few months. So far, five compulsory orders have been announced and more are under way. In many cases officers of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government have joined in local discussions. In point of fact, nearly 700 undertakings are actively considering at the moment the question of amalgamation and re-grouping. The curious thing—and I think I made this observation in the course of the last debate—is that brewery undertakings seem to amalgamate much more readily and speedily than water undertakings.
My noble friend Lord Saltoun drew attention to the use of the word "arbiter", which he prefers; and asks that it should be included in the Bill. I am glad to say that we have forestalled him. If he will look at paragraph 4 of the Second Schedule, he will find that it reads as follows:
In the application of this Schedule to Scotland, for any reference to an arbitrator there shaft be substituted a reference to an arbiter."
LORD SALTOUN: I beg the noble Lord's pardon. I am so blind that I had not seen that.
LORD MANCROFT: Perhaps the noble Lord, as a sort of penance for his oversight, would like to try to find for us a better word than "undertaker" to describe the person who provides the water.
My noble friend Lord Waldegrave asked a question about river boards. Seven days' notice does apply to the river boards. There is always the question here of balancing the two interests, speed against fair play. I think the noble Earl will find—as I am sure that he, with his technical experience, will agree—that water undertakers are usually in pretty close touch with their local river board and will no doubt have consulted them before deciding to apply for an order. The noble Lord, Lord Latham, who told me that he was unable to remain in his

1045
place, asked me about the Metropolitan Water Board's Use of Reservoirs Order of 1956. I think this is a matter that will have to be gone into carefully before the Committee stage, because this order, which I understand expires on July 31 of this year, cannot be extended under the Bill. We shall have to see if we can help the noble Lord in any way. So far as I can see at the moment, without taking advice, the only way open to the Board to get an extension of the powers which they now have would be to promote a Private Bill.
I was also asked about the amount of water used by the Atomic Energy Authorities. There is here a slight difference of opinion between the noble Lord, Lord Latham, and my noble friend Lord Stonehaven. I understand that huge quantities are in fact used for cooling, but it is mostly seawater or brackish water from estuaries: comparatively little drinkable water is used. My noble friends Lord Clitheroe, Lord Waldegrave and Lord Hawke all hoped that this Bill would not encourage improvidence.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: If the noble Lord is departing from atomic power stations, I should like to make this point. It is a fact that atomic power stations vary in their water needs according to climatic conditions. In the case of the Blackwater Station, where there is a surrounding rainfall of not more than eighteen inches, the Essex County Council had to try to arrange for supplies from other sources. This aspect of the matter must be considered, because of the varying climatic conditions and the much lower level of main water resources in some parts of the country compared with others.
LORD MANCROFT: I take the noble Viscount's point, but I think it raises a much bigger problem than the small one raised by the Bill. However, that does not minimise its importance.
LORD REA: I am not certain of my facts, but I think the noble Lord will
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find that in the case of Calder Hall and Sellafield the large amounts of water used are all fresh water.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: Perhaps when I spoke I did not make myself clear. What I meant to say was that the atomic power stations, in my opinion—and I ask to be put right on this—use no more water than the equivalent-sized station working on conventional fuel.
LORD MANCROFT: Obviously the question of supplying water on a longterm basis to major installations, such as atomic power stations, raises a bigger point than is raised in this modest Bill, which is now beginning to look much more important than it was when I introduced it.
I should like to emphasise and endorse the point made by three or four noble Lords concerning improvidence and incompetence. This Bill is not in any way an encouragement to incompetent authorities. Most competent authorities, I think, can realise that a crisis is corning upon them, and that a serious water situation is likely to develop, well before the seven days' period, and I think a matter of compromise there is easily brought about. My noble friend Lord Hawke recalled the occasion in Cornwall, nearly two years ago, when he and I were almost compelled to brush our teeth in light ale for a fortnight. That crisis had been foreseen for several weeks ahead, but it was far too serious for the authorities to cope with. Other small points have been raised, but in view of the fact that we have other Business before us, I will ask your Lordships' permission to examine them carefully and, if necessary, deal with them on the Committee stage. I am grateful to your Lordships for giving this Bill a friendly welcome, and I am only sorry that it does not go as far as some of your Lordships seem to think it should.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

COMMONWEALTH INSTITUTE BILL
4.26 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE:My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. As the Bill deals with one of the principal agencies in the United Kingdom for the promotion of Commonwealth inter-relations, I think your Lordships will agree that it is a matter of the highest importance. Noble Lords will no doubt have read the Explanatory Memorandum in the Bill, in which its purpose is described as being
"to provide for the vesting in the Trustees of the Imperial Institute of a new site for the Institute, and for the erection by them of a new building."
The Imperial Institute Act of 1925, which is the legislation under which the Imperial Institute is administered, ties the Institute to the buildings in South Kensington which at present it occupies, and it cannot be moved elsewhere without amending legislation.
The need to move the Institute is the result of the decision of Her Majesty's Government to expand the Imperial College of Science and Technology on the South Kensington site, and thereby to enable an increase in its student numbers from 1,650 to about 3,000. That decision was announced in another place on January 29, 1953. A careful examination of the urgent need for the expansion of the College convinced the Government that the best solution was to concentrate on the existing site between Prince Consort Road and the Imperial Institute Road. It was, in fact, as my noble friend Lord Selkirk told your Lordships on March 13 of last year, the best site upon which to expand the College, as the City and Guilds Engineering College, the Royal School of Mines and the Royal College of Science are already there.
At the same time, Her Majesty's Government considered with equal care the requirements of the Imperial Institute, bearing in mind the important rôle that it plays in the life of the Commonwealth. I would remind your Lordships that the Institute occupies only a small part of the Collcutt building, the main part of which is used by the London University. This dual occupation dates from the end of the last century, when the Institute was
1048
in financial difficulties and was rescued by the Government, which in 1899 took over the lease and discharged a substantial mortgage and floating debt handing over to the London University those parts of the building which have been occupied by the University ever since. From the point of view of the Institute, and therefore from the point of view of the Commonwealth as a whole, a new building specially designed for its purpose will be of great advantage. As was pointed out in the Tweedsmuir Committee Report of 1952:
"The present accommodation which dates from 1887 is not well suited to the present activities of the Institute."
On January 25, 1956, my noble friend the present Leader of your Lordships' House said this [OFFICIAL. REPORT, Vol. 195, col. 521]:
"In view of the urgent need to increase the country's output of scientists and technologists, the Government have decided, notwithstanding the difficulties which are involved to adhere to the scale of development for the Imperial College which they originally announced. In order that this decision may be put into effect, new premises for the Imperial Institute will be provided elsewhere."
Whether or not the Collcutt building should be retained is not directly relevant to this Bill, and though I personally do not share in the regrets of those who lament the physical disappearance of this building, I rejoice that it has been found technically possible to keep the tower, and that it has been decided that the planning of the rectangular site in South Kensington should proceed on the assumption that the Queen's Tower is to be retained. I use the words "physical disappearance" as it seems to me that it is the spirit of Commonwealth unity and co-operation which it is so much more important to retain and to fortify. It is that spirit which created the Imperial Institute, and it is that spirit which will create and fortify the new Commonwealth Institute of 1961.
Here I hope your Lordships will allow me a momentary digression from the plain practical facts of this Bill. Collcutt's tower has recently, in our discussions and elsewhere, been considered as "a free standing campanile." I hope that, if and when this tower does stand alone, it will not be referred to as "Collcutt's Campanile": it is the Queen's Tower, erected in honour of Her Majesty Queen Victoria; and it carries within its bell

1049
chamber ten bells which were the personal gift to the Prince of Wales, later King Edward VII, the first President of the Institute, a gift from an Australian lady, Mrs. Elizabeth Millar, of Melbourne.
The chimes of these bells, known as the Alexandra Peal, may be heard on certain special occasions. Let us hope that these chimes may long continue to be heard, and that, when they ring, men, women and children passing by may pause to think and pledge themselves anew to the great concept of Commonwealth partnership. Let them never forget that the funds which built the Imperial Institute were subscribed by millions of people from all over the Empire. No less than £413,000 was subscribed. In addition, special donations were subsequently made for specific purposes, notably a gift of two lakhs of rupees from Sir Cowasjee Jehangir, which raised the total sum to about £440,000. Of this sum, in accordance with the terms of the Charter, £140,000 was set aside for endowment, the remainder being spent on the building and the construction of the Imperial Institute Road. The total sum ultimately spent on the building and equipment amounted to £354.000.
The purpose of the Institute was to promote the commercial, industrial and educational interests of the British Empire. No one possessing any sense of history—and I deliberately leave aside the controversial æsthetic sense—can accept lightly the demolition of the old Imperial Institute. I personally am very proud of what it stood for, but we have to move with the requirements of the times, and its disappearance will enable us to train nearly double as many student scientists and technologists, whom we so badly need; and it will also enable us to house the new Commonwealth Institute in a building specially designed for its purpose, in modern conditions.
Meanwhile, subsequent to the Government's decision, announced on January 29, 1953, to expand the Imperial College of Science and Technology, considerable progress has been made in that direction. The student numbers have already grown from 1,650 to 2,453, and the College itself estimates that it will be able to accommodate up to 3,300 students in the buildings as planned. The Aeronautical and Chemical Engineering building is complete in the north-west corner. On
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the north side a big new storey has been added to the Royal School of Mines. A start has been made on the major project of an engineering block, costing some £1,300,000, on the eastern side. The planning of the remainder of the site, and of a contiguous site in Princes Gardens, where student and staff accommodation is to be built, is proceeding rapidly. As your Lordships are aware, a suitable site for the new building of the Commonwealth Institute has been found and secured. The site is in Holland Park, where Her Majesty's Government have leased from the owners, the Ilchester Estate, approximately 3¼ acres for which a capital payment of £215,000 has been made; and there will be an annual rent of £10. The lease is for 999 years. The Governors were strongly in favour of this site, and their recommendation was endorsed by the Trustees. I may perhaps add that the Director of the Institute is enthusiastic about the prospects, and I think he has no regrets over leaving the old Imperial Institute.
The Government had to consider what size the new building should be. They decided that it would be fair and just to provide a building which, in terms of space, would be equivalent to the accommodation now used by the Institute—that is, 102,000 square feet, for exhibitions, cinema, offices, workshops, and so on, with a margin for corridors, staircases, et cetera bringing the total to a gross figure of 125,000 square feet. In terms of utility, there is no doubt that the Institute will be much better off in a new building specially designed on a spacious site of its own than where it is at present.
It has been suggested that this Bill should provide for the possibility of enlarging the building at some later date. The main reason why this is not practicable is that the Bill is, in effect, asking Parliament to authorise expenditure, and the extent of the expenditure must be defined. There is expenditure on the site, expenditure on the building, and also, of course, the annual expenditure on the maintenance of the building for almost an indefinite period. It follows, therefore, that if at some future date any major addition to the building were agreed to be desirable this would require amending legislation. It does not mean, however, that legislation would be

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necessary to cover minor items of internal reconstruction. Nor does it mean that the plans of the new building cannot be drawn in such a way as to make it possible to enlarge the building if and when a development of this kind proves to be practicable.
The responsibility for the appointment of an architect rests with the Trustees of the Institute, since the present Bill gives the Trustees the function of erecting the new building. The Trustees have also consulted the Governors of the Institute, and at a meeting held on July 17, 1957, under their new Chairman, my noble friend Lord Dundee, the Governors decided to recommend that the choice should fall upon Professor Matthew and Mr. Johnson-Marshall. The Trustees decided to accept this recommendation, and they invited the architects to undertake the project. This selection does, of course, anticipate the passage of this Bill. It has been done simply to enable progress on the new buildings to be made without delay. The formal appointment of Messrs. Robert Matthew and Johnson-Marshall, will be made when the present legislation gives the Trustees power to do so.
The cost allowed for the building has been fixed at a figure which we think should allow for imaginative planning and a finish of good quality, but which will none the less offer, as any new project should, a challenge to economy in design and construction. Your Lordships may wonder why the design for the new Commonwealth Institute building was not made the subject of a Commonwealth competition. The reasons are twofold: first, such procedure would inevitably have involved considerable delay and further expenditure; and, secondly, the winning design might have imposed upon the building certain forms which might not have suited the practical requirements of the Institute. The Director, who is, after all, the man most fitted to judge the practical requirements of the Institute under his direction, will work in close co-operation with the architects.
Your Lordships will, I think, wish to consider the valuable work which is carried out by the Institute. It might perhaps be of somewhat wider scope than some of your Lordships are aware.
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I hope that my noble friend Lord Dundee will have something more detailed to say about this matter in the course of his remarks shortly. Perhaps I may make a few observations. It is estimated that approximately 1½ million people are reached each year through the activities of the Institute. During 1957, approximately 1,500 parties visited the Institute, totalling about 42.600 teachers and children. In the exhibition galleries of the Institute the total annual attendance is in the neighbourhood of half a million.
Many special exhibitions, mainly of Commonwealth art, have been held in the Institute. There are three performances of Commonwealth documentary films every day. Maps, leaflets, study kits, and film strips are provided for the use both of the public and schools. A number of travelling exhibitions circulate throughout the United Kingdom, and there is a lecture service at schools. Lectures are provided on payment, but the charges are kept as low as possible by means of special grants from the Colonial Office and from some of the Governments of the overseas countries of the Commonwealth. Many members of the Overseas Civil Service give valuable held by lecturing for the Institute when they come home on leave. One of the most important activities of the Institute, which was started in 1952, is the organisation of conferences on Commonwealth subjects for sixth-form pupils in grammar schools and for teacher-training colleges. There were thirty-six such conferences in various provincial centres last year, including seven which took place in Scotland. There is also the Commonwealth Students' Club, the aim of which is to increase understanding and friendship between students from all parts of the Commonwealth, including, of course, the United Kingdom, by promoting companionship in leisure and shared activities. Though its membership is relatively small, this club is doing most valuable work.
My Lords, I will now turn to some of the clauses of the Bill which may require a little elucidation. Broadly speaking, and with the exception of the change in the title, some minor changes in the Trustees and the new Clause 5, the Bill does not alter the present statutory pattern of the administration of the Institute. This pattern is a little complicated, as

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there are three parties involved. The first is, a body of Trustees—not Governors, Trustees—some Ministers, some not, in whom is vested the building used by the Institute. Normally, the Trustees have no duties except to safeguard the premises and the endowment fund to which I referred earlier. The present Bill gives them the function of erecting the new building, as I have already said earlier in my speech. They have no part in the management or the activities of the Institute. Secondly, there is a responsible Minister (the Minister of Education) who carries the ultimate responsibility for the management of the Institute, and provides with Parliament's approval, such monies as are necessary to supplement the Institute's other sources of revenue, such as the endowment fund income, contributions from other Commonwealth Governments, and so on. The third group is a body of Governors, some appointed by the Minister, some by the self-governing Commonwealth countries, and some co-opted, to whom the responsibilities of management are mainly entrusted by the Minister. The Institute also has a full-time Director appointed by the Minister. The rest of the staff are appointed by the Director on behalf of the Governors.
The constitutional changes proposed by the Bill are, first, in the composition of the Trustees, where the Secretaries of State for Commonwealth Relations and Colonies are to replace the Prime Minister, the Lord President of the Council and the President of the Board of Trade; and, secondly, in the method of the appointment of the private Trustees, whereby it is proposed that the present requirements for prior consultation with the Governor of the Bank of England and the President of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce should be dropped. The reason for this latter change is due to the alteration in the functions of the Institute which took place in 1949, when it was given its present predominantly educational rôle.
The Bill does not in any way alter the purposes of the Institute which are defined in the Order in Council of 1949. The Bill does not alter the composition or method of appointment of the governing body, but it does bring up to date the list of self-governing countries of the Commonwealth who have to be consulted before any change in this regard is
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made by Order in Council. After the Bill becomes law it will be possible to consider making an Order in Council under the procedure of Section 8 of the 1925 Act to give any new member Government acceding to the Commonwealth the right to appoint members of the governing body.
Clause 4 enables the Minister to require the Trustees to surrender parts of the present building pending the completion of the new building. It will be necessary to invoke this power at a very early stage after the Bill becomes law, since the planning of the Imperial College will require the demolition at an early stage of much of the accommodation now occupied by the Institute east of the Great Hall. Plans have, in fact, been worked out to cope with this situation. A new area of some 13,000 square feet is being provided for the Institute under the Great Hall and will be ready within the next week or so. The Director of the Institute is satisfied that after the initial disturbance the new exhibition facilities will be at least no more inconvenient than those available in the past. The Institute will, however, have to be closed to visitors during March and April of this year—I repeat, closed to visitors; the work of the Institute will, of course, go on.
I should like to add here that it is clear to me, from a conversation that I have had with the Director, that the most cordial and co-operative relationship exists between the Institute and the authorities of the College. We hope that after this initial disturbance it will be some time before any further encroachment on the Institute's accommodation will be necessary. Clearly, no precise guarantee can be given, especially as no more than an approximate estimate can yet be given of the time which the new building for the Institute is likely to take to plan and complete. But I know that my right honourable friend the Minister of Education has already repeated his predecessor's assurance that every effort will be made to ensure as much continuity as possible for the activities of the Institute during the transitional stage.
Clause 5 enables the Minister of Education to lend objects in the Institute for exhibition elsewhere, and to dispose of useless objects. There are precedents in other Acts—for example, the

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Imperial War Museum Act of 1920. Commonwealth Governments will have the special privilege of taking over any exhibit if it can more appropriately be housed by them. Clause 6 deals with the cost of putting up the new building. The cost of the new building will be met by the Exchequer. The cost of maintaining the Institute will, as now, also be met by the Exchequer, except so far as it is met from other sources. These are the income from the endowment fund, contributions from Commonwealth Governments and sums received in the course of running the Institute—for example, from lecture fees. At present the expenditure of the Institute is about £94,000 a year, to which Commonwealth, including Colonial, Governments contribute about £12,000. The endowment fund is held by the Trustees under the 1925 Act, and produces an income of a little less than £5,000 a year. The contribution from the Exchequer for the current year is £40,000; but, in addition, the Trustees occupy their building free, valued at £33,500 a year, and obtain certain free services from the Ministry of Works valued at £17,500 a year.
I hope that I have not wearied your Lordships too much by going into this Bill, which to me is a most important one—and I hope that your Lordships share my views—in such detail. It is one of the earnests of our belief in the value of Commonwealth co-operation and in educative work to do with Commonwealth history. I hope that your Lordships will give it a good welcome, and that our friends in the Commonwealth all over the world will know that we here, in London, really care about our great Commonwealth partnership. My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
4.55 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, certainly I would agree with the noble Marquess who has moved the Second Reading of this Bill that it is a most important one, and also that the subject with which it is concerned is of vital significance to this country. To-day we are considering the end of one story and the beginning of another—the end of the story which commenced with contributions from
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civilians and soldiers throughout the Empire towards the building of the Imperial Institute to celebrate the Jubilee of Queen Victoria. I believe that the private soldiers, non-commissioned officers and officers of Her Majesty's Forces contributed voluntarily a day's pay, or something of that kind, at the time. Certainly, the foundation stone was laid by Queen Victoria in the presence of a distinguished and large congregation upon an occasion a good deal hotter than it is to-day.
Throughout the years the Institute has performed an important task, although to my mind it has never been as well known as it should have been. It has formed part of the great mass of buildings in South Kensington which the late Viscount. Lord Haldane, described as the "English Charlottenburg." That is the end of that story, as the building, by the decree of the Government, is being pulled down. Perhaps it is significant that this memorial to the late Queen is now pulled down to provide scientists in the middle of the twentieth century with the training to make, among other things, bigger and better bombs. However that may be, the Government has taken this decision. I regret it. I do not think it is necessary to pull down this building. I think that the University of London in general, and the Science College in particular, would be able to use a building of this description; and well it would serve them. However, we are not particularly concerned with that issue to-day and I do not want to enlarge upon it. The Government know my view and that of many noble Lords in this House, because we have had more than one debate upon it, and I shall not enlarge upon it.
The question now is simply one of the future of the Commonwealth Institute, and this is the beginning of the new story—that is to say, the move of the Institute to its new quarters in Holland Park Road, or what was at one time part of the grounds of the old Holland House. Perhaps it is not right to describe it as Holland Park Road; it is probably part of Kensington. I do not quite know what the exact description of it will be, but at all events it is part of the old Holland House, and as we have not had a plan attached to the Bill it is difficult to say what road it will front.

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My Lords, the situation is that there is both a plus and a minus in connection with this move. There is a plus because undoubtedly the Institute will obtain a better building—there is no doubt about that. At present they are housed largely, not in the old Institute building itself, but in a number of buildings of lesser importance around it—chalets and corridors and such places as that; they are temporary buildings. So they will get a much better building and they will be able to display their various goods and their panorama and the like in a much more congenial atmosphere. That is the plus.
On the minus side there is the fact—I think it is an undoubted fact—that it will not be so convenient to get at. Once you get away from what you may call the "Charlottenburg"—that is, the number of buildings in the South Kensington area—you are getting away from the transport facilities that exist there. I believe it has been found that the moving of the London Museum to Kensington Palace has not been a great success, and certainly moving the Imperial War Museum to the southern part of the city, to Lambeth, has not been a success because people cannot find their way to it. So to that extent I think there will be a loss. I shall say a little more about that in a moment.
However, as they have had to move from that particular area of South Kensington, I think possibly this is one of the best sites to which they could have gone. It is certainly far better than the original site proposed, which was a bombed site, I believe, somewhere in the southern part of the city, on the other side of the river. That, I am certain, would have been fatal. Before I go on to my next point, I would say, as this is the first opportunity we have had of doing so, that I am sure that noble Lords would wish to express their regret at the loss of the noble Viscount. Lord Hudson, who did so much for the Imperial Institute and was so interested in this work; and to welcome the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, who is to take his place. We wish him and the Committee every possible success on the new site.
As to the name, I believe we should all agree that in this day and age it is desirable to change it from "Imperial Institute" to "Commonwealth Institute."
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I think it is particularly appropriate since they are going to the grounds of Holland House, which was for so long the home of Whiggery and the important centre of wit, for I am sure that the shades of Lord and Lady Holland, Charles James Fox, Lord Melbourne, and Thomas Babington Macaulay would not want the home of Whiggery to be sullied by the name "Imperial".
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, the Commonwealth Institute is not to be made up of Whigs, I hope.
LORD OGMORE: No doubt there will be a few Tories in it. As to the membership of the Committee, your Lordships will remember that in August of last year the noble Earl. Lord Perth, and I had a difference of opinion on the question of the appointment of Trustees and Governors. It was not that I in any way objected to the noble Lords and gentlemen who were appointed—far from it—but I felt that the appointments did not in themselves sufficiently widen the scope and that there should have been other appointments, in addition to those noble Lords and gentlemen, which would have expanded the range of experience and understanding contributed to the Trustees and the Committee. It was a curious fact that all the appointments were either of noble Lords from the Benches opposite or distinguished former civil servants. Much as we all esteem noble Lords opposite and civil servants, we do not regard those two categories of the population as being the sole repository of wisdom and experience; and there might have been something to be said for having others who could contribute experience of a kind different from theirs. Perhaps that matter can be looked into now, for I hope it is not yet too late to do so.
There is just one other point that I have to make on the actual detail of the Bill, and as we may not have a Committee stage I had better mention it now. It was rather surprising to me to find in Clause 3 of the Bill that the Ministry of Works should have obtained from the noble Earl, Lord Ilchester, a lease. I have always understood that it was the practice of Her Majesty's Government wherever possible to obtain freehold title, and perhaps when he comes to reply the noble Marquess will inform the House as

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to the circumstances which induced Her Majesty's Government to depart from their usual practice and to obtain a lease for these valuable premises, instead of a freehold.
Another question I should like to ask is: what is the cost to be? Though I may have missed it, I do not recall that the noble Marquess stated the figure. I have in mind that £750,000 has been quoted for the building, but perhaps he can confirm that when he comes to reply. I am sure that the first thing Her Majesty's Government and the Trustees and Governors must do is to ensure that there is as little dislocation as possible in the changeover. There is bound to be some, of course, and to that extent there will be a loss, if one building is to be pulled down before the other is erected, there must be weeks or months of delay, and perhaps the noble Marquess can say how long that delay is likely to be. At any rate, it must be cut down to the minimum possible, because this is a living Institute and any loss is bad. Much loss of time will possibly be a very serious matter, because children come to these institutions at certain periods of their scholastic life and we might have a whole range of children from various schools who will never go there at all, which would be a great pity. Then, people coming from the country or from Scotland or Wales may visit the Institute if it is there but will not be able to do so if it is not.
To my mind, another very important matter is transport: in fact it is vital. If we cannot get a place outside the actual museum area where transport is laid on, then we must ensure that there is an easy and rapid form of transport, either bus or underground. I have had a look at the Underground map, and though without seeing the plan I could not, of course, see what stations would be near, it looked as though Holland Park would be the nearest, with Kensington High Street, and perhaps Earls Court. None of them is very near. At present there is a covered way from South Kensington Station almost to the doors of the Institute, or at least to within a couple of hundred yards of it; so we are surrendering quite a good means of access for one which may be not nearly so good.
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Then, it is important to have a good parking place for charabancs and cars. Many children and others now come in buses which at the moment are parked in the excellent facilities provided in Imperial Institute Road; so that matter will have to be considered. I can assure your Lordships that nowhere on the main road around Kensington is likely to be at all convenient for the parking of buses or cars, and that is very important for the purposes of those coming to the Institute.
I wish to pay a tribute to Mr. Bradley and his staff, who are doing an excellent job of work. We must encourage them to develop the facilities of the Institute to the greatest possible extent, as I hope they will now be able to do, and to have the displays properly mounted; to have, wherever possible, moving panorama, because nothing catches the eye of a child like a moving panorama, as we found in the Colonial Exhibition in 1948: and also to expand the other activities set out in the Annual Report for 1956, a copy of which Mr. Bradley was good enough to send me. They are very extensive and most of them have been referred to by the noble Marquess to-day. Although the noble Marquess did not say so specifically, I take it that those activities will be maintained, if not increased, in the new building; that the cinema will continue to show Commonwealth and other films; and that the Commonwealth Students' Group will be maintained there. I occasionally go along and speak to students in the Commonwealth Students' Group and also take part in some of their functions. It is an excellent organisation which I hope will be expanded in the new premises.
It is very desirable that the plans, when they are completed, should enable substantial additions to be made, if necessary. We do not want to find in a few years' time a Government spokesman saying, "I am very sorry, but the plans were made in 1958 and this is the only building which can be built on this site. We cannot put up any additions without vast expenditure, and you should have thought of that at the time." Well, we are thinking of that at the time, and we ask the Government to ensure that substantial additions can be made if necessary.

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Among other features of the Institution is the Travelling Exhibition. We have heard that it has travelled to Scotland—I think the noble Marquess said on six occasions—
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Seven.
LORD OGMORE:—but not to Wales on any occasion, although I think I saw it there some years ago.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: It has done so.
LORD OGMORE: May I suggest that this year is a particularly good one for the Travelling Exhibition to visit Wales, because this year, under the patronage of Her Majesty the Queen, the Festival of Wales is being held and the whole of Wales is en fête, as it were. Welshmen have contributed a great deal to the Commonwealth in the course of history, and Welsh people would, I am sure, appreciate the opportunity of seeing the work of the Commonwealth Institute. I would ask the Minister and also the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, to consider whether that is not possible. I am a Vice-President of the Festival and I am sure the Festival authorities would be pleased to welcome such an exhibition, and I would ask them to consider whether it is not possible for them to do so. The Festival does not open until July so there is a little time before the opening date. I think that the Games open in July and the Festival in June; nevertheless, there is enough time.
There is only one other matter to which I should like to refer, and that is a matter which concerned me considerably when I read about it in the newspaper this morning. The following is from a report contained in the Daily Telegraph of to-day's date. The heading is: "Commonwealth 'Fed Up'. Lack of Publicity ", and the report says:
"The Australian High Commissioner, Sir Eric Harrison, said in London yesterday that Commonwealth countries were completely fed up' with the lack of publicity given to the Commonwealth in Britain. He was speaking at a lunch of the Institute of Public Relations.
"He said: 'The only things that seem to appear are reports of hush fires, floods, cricket and cricket again, and maybe the Wallabies, sometimes when they play a little too rough.
"'It's something that must be remedied. Sometimes I am completely amazed at the crass ignorance shown by big business executives as to what Australia is doing,
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"'Please do not take the Commonwealth ties for granted. The time may come when divergence of opinion might well break the Commonwealth asunder unless hard thought has been put into it'."
We all know Sir Eric Harrison as a great friend of Britain and a great believer in the Commonwealth, and he is, of course, the High Commissioner for Australia in this country. I am perfectly certain he would not make a statement of that kind unless he had a serious reason for doing so and considerable evidence. I must say I think this is a very serious statement for a High Commissioner to make, and it is one we should regard with the utmost care. I entirely agree with Sir Eric Harrison. I have long held this view. It is no good spending money on publicising Spain or Czechoslovakia and other foreign countries (although in itself it is a perfectly good thing to do) if our own brothers in the Commonwealth are neglected, because when the time comes they are the people who are going to stand by us as they have done so often in the past.
One of the means of combating the ignorance in this country is the Commonwealth Institute. It has been sorely handicapped in the past by unsatisfactory accommodation. It has been sorely handicapped by lack of funds and by lack of general interest. I think the debates in this House in the last few years—and we have had several—have stimulated interest in the Commonwealth Institute, as can be seen from the figures of the people who have been attending or visiting it. I would ask the Government and the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, and his Governors, to do everything in their power to make the Commonwealth Institute a really live and dynamic instrument in this field. It has been said that friendship needs continually to be nourished, and, as Sir Eric Harrison quite rightly says, the same thing applies to the Commonwealth tie: the Commonwealth tie itself needs constantly to be looked at, and everything should be done to ensure that the tie remains as firm in the future as it ever has been in the past. I support this Bill, my Lords, and I hope chat you will give it a Second Reading.
5.16 p.m.
LORD TWEEDSMUIR: My Lords. I rise to welcome this Bill, and I shall detain your Lordships for only a few minutes. I shall not go very far but I

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shall go rather wide. I was the Chairman of the Committee of Inquiry set up by the last Government to inquire into the activities of the then Imperial Institute and to make recommendations for its future. We made some very sweeping recommendations, and a number were surprised, and some even shocked, when we said that if our recommendations could not be met within a reasonable time, we recommended that the Imperial Institute be wound up and the building put to some other use. The reason why we said this was that we believed that the creation of the Commonwealth is the greatest achievement of the British race. We have a great subject to deal with. If we cannot do justice to that subject we belittle it.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has drawn attention to the Australian High Commissioner's speech of yesterday. I, too, read that speech. He is merely voicing what many of us in this House, and hundreds and thousands in the Commonwealth, think; but if, in the words of the Australian High Commissioner, people are "fed up" at the lack of publicity, then take the position of some young man in the Commonwealth who may have come from, say, New Zealand or Nigeria and visits this Institute in London. London is no longer the head of the Commonwealth but is the heart of it. If he sees his own country portrayed there, in a way which he thinks does not do justice to it, he will not be merely "fed up" but he will be deeply aggrieved and be tempted to think. "Is this the measure of what the people in this country think of my own country?"
Nothing I have said so far must be held to disparage in any way the previous directors and officers of the Institute. They did a very good job with very little money and very little encouragement. Because they built so well, this resurgence of the Institute is possible. It owes a lot, as has been said, to the late Lord Hudson, whose task has been taken over by my noble friend Lord Dundee—and we wish him, as well as to the Director, Mr. Kenneth Bradley and his staff, all the luck in the world. We, as a Committee are extremely pleased that so many of our recommendations are being followed—not all of them, to be sure, because if one is realistic one must accept that
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if you want to realise a dream you have to give up part of it.
On the matter of the new building, of course there are others we should have preferred. I should have liked to see it beside London River, looking out upon the Houses of Parliament; but I think the site chosen has many advantages as well as disadvantages. When the last building was erected it was a great building to do justice to a great purpose, but we have a warning in building something too big to be maintained.
This, I think, leads one to reflect how few buildings there are, not only in London but in Britain, where one can go in and obtain any information about the Commonwealth as a whole. In the last twelve months I have done 80,000 miles of travelling within the Commonwealth. I do not say that in the hope of impressing your Lordships, but merely to record the humility I feel at the vast amount of the Commonwealth which I have not visited. And if that is my trouble, how much more is it the trouble of those who rarely, if ever, get a chance of leaving these shores. The noble Marquess told us that half a million people had been through the galleries in the past year, and that 1½ million people are reached in one way and another by the Institute's activities. We all welcome that. Here, at any rate, is a place where those who are interested can come to know the whole Commonwealth.
But—and this is where I warned your Lordships I was to go rather widely—surely this is part of a much larger problem. I have always felt that the greatest danger to the Commonwealth was that we become strangers to each other. Do not let us underestimate that danger. In this country people know a certain amount about Canada; they hear a certain amount, generally rather one-sided, about South Africa; they know much less about Australia and New Zealand, far less still about the Asian Dominions and absolutely nothing at all about the Colonies. It is very difficult to maintain a partnership if some of the partners are completely ignorant of the others. Far more associations of men have been destroyed by apathy than were ever destroyed by hostility. As the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has said, the Institute is starting a new history—a new life, under a new name, in a new place

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and in a new building. We all wish it well, and sincerely trust that not only this Government but those who follow them will never allow it again to shrink and wither through lack of support and encouragement.
5.22 p.m.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, I do not propose to detain the House for more than a minute or two, because after the ample and instructive introduction by the noble Marquess, Lord Lansdowne, there is little which remains to be said on a subject which commands such general agreement. I should like to say that there never was an institute, or institution, which more properly could be called the Commonwealth Institute than this one. That name might have been applied with equal propriety to the Institute of a generation ago; it seems to me almost a belated recognition, though that might easily and properly have been its name from the beginning.
I have in my hand the brochure published by the Imperial Institute, entitled Imperial Institute, 1887–1956. I must admit that although I know a certain amount about its subject matter, I was deeply impressed by this record of the Institute's activities, which are growing ever greater, particularly in a more educational direction. I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating the Director and staff upon their excellently produced Annual Report for 1956, which I also have beside me.
It is true that there is lamentable ignorance of the Commonwealth in this country—there always has been—but, as the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, said, it is a vast subject and one must remember that it does not fall to everybody to have facilities for travelling and for obtaining that intimate personal knowledge which is so highly desirable. On the question of publicity, perhaps I may intrude this thought. It has been said that there is not enough publicity. But those who know about the activities of the Commonwealth Institute realise their vastly growing nature (I will not go into the list of different sections), and is it not possible that we are deluded a little by the fact that the Institute does not publicise itself? It publicises the Commonwealth. Perhaps it might be better if it gave a little more publicity to the work it is doing and which it was founded to do.
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In studying this recent brochure, I have been surprised, at the extent of these activities, and I have had unusual facilities to acquire personal knowledge. Perhaps there is this to be said in answer to the Australian High Commissioner: that these activities are not so much on the surface that they would be mentioned by, and perhaps have not yet succeeded in reaching the notice of, the higher executives in business, because I imagine that the Institute has concentrated so largely and so properly on the rising generation.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I do not think that Sir Eric Harrison was criticising the Institute. So far as I recollect, he did not mention the Institute. He was criticising the lack of interest in the Commonwealth in this country and the lack of publicity given to Commonwealth matters.
LORD MILVERTON: I am sorry if I was misunderstood. I never meant to suggest that the High Commissioner was referring to the Institute, but that perhaps he had been moving in circles where the work of the Institute had not yet penetrated. That may easily have been so. I am particularly interested in the activities centred under the Commonwealth Club, which is now functioning under these auspices. I think that there is no greater field for work and no more valuable work than this of encouraging and co-operating in social life in leisure hours. So much of our reputation depends on that. I have personal experience abroad of how the whole of a man's outlook on this country can be coloured by the accident of whether people were kind to him or not in this country. I do not wish to detain your Lordships longer because we are about to hear the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, who is in charge of the direction of these activities. I should like to say, however, that I give the Bill my unqualified support, and that I think all the decisions therein embodied are correct.
5.28 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, when your Lordships last discussed this subject in 1953 the Report of the Committee presided over by my noble friend Lord Tweedsmuir had lately been published. I understand that the Government have never formally adopted the Tweedsmuir Report, but in practice its

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recommendations have been followed by the Board of Governors of the Institute in the development of their educational policy. I should like to acknowledge our debt of gratitude to my noble friend and to his Committee for producing this most valuable Report.
In the last five years, under the chairmanship of the late Lord Hudson, whose death was a sad loss to the Institute, great progress has been made, in spite of severe financial limitations. I think that the credit for this progress is mainly due to the remarkable vigour and ability of the Director, Mr. Kenneth Bradley. Since 1933, the annual number of gallery attendances has increased from 380.000 to about half a million, and the number of student parties which have received instruction has increased from 1,000 to 1,300. The number of lectures, some of which are given in the Institute's premises, though most are given in schools throughout the country, has gone up from 5.000 to 7.000; and that has embraced total audiences of no fewer than 700,000 schoolchildren. The number of school conferences and courses for more senior pupils has gone from two to thirty-six. There are also some new features of the Institute's activities which have been introduced, and which were mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and by my noble friend Lord Lansdowne. There are the travelling exhibitions: thirty-eight showings to 250.000 people took place last year. I am sorry to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, that Wales has been neglected, and I can assure him that we shall immediately do our best to put this right. We started an independent committee of the institute in Scotland, to extend its work there. That committee has existed for only two and a half years, and it now organises school conferences in Scotland, and also arranges the circulation of our travelling exhibitions.
I am glad that my noble friend Lord Lansdowne referred to the Commonwealth Students' Club. It is perhaps a small affair, but I think it is most desirable. The average membership is about 300 Commonwealth students, all of different races, who use the premises of the Institute at week-ends for lectures, concerts, dances and other kinds of recreation. I ought perhaps to mention that it
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throws a slight additional strain on the staff of the Institute, who have to do a good deal of overtime work, extra cleaning and so on. However, they are most willing to do it, and I believe that it is well worth while.
The main purpose of the Institute, and the main reason why Parliament votes us any money at all, is to educate the British public about the British Commonwealth. I do not think one could have better evidence of the need for doing that than the speech by the Australian High Commissioner which the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has quoted. I am sure Sir Eric Harrison will appreciate that if the Australian Government could see their way to increase substantially the contribution which they are now making to the Commonwealth Institute, so that we might greatly improve the Australian gallery at the Institute, we should be delighted to use that in order to advertise here much more effectively than we can do now the social and economic achievements of that great Dominion—because that is precisely what the Commonwealth Institute is for.
The section of the public which we most particularly desire to reach is, of course, the schoolchildren. By far the most outstanding and effective item in the Institute's programme for last year was the lantern lecture given last April by the Duke of Edinburgh to an audience of 2,000 senior schoolchildren; and on a much smaller scale, hundreds of thousands of similar lectures are being organised in all parts of the country. As I think my noble friend said, about 1½ million people received some kind of instruction last year through the Institute, and more than half of them were children. But although all these children have received sonic instruction, and, we hope, some entertainment, it does not amount to more than a few hours each.
What we should like to see is more attention being paid in all the schools in this country to teaching children about the Commonwealth. I should never be rash enough to criticise the curriculum in any of our schools—even the Minister of Education would never dare to do that—but perhaps I may be allowed to make one general observation. I have always thought it rather a pity that history and geography should be taught, as they usually are, as two completely

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separate subjects. I am sure that I should be much less badly educated than I am if, when I had been at school, instead of having to attend a geography class for an hour and being supposed to learn something about the rivers and mountains of Africa, and then the next week having to attend a history class, when I was supposed to learn something about the Norman Conquest, I could have been taught the geography of Africa and the history of the Commonwealth countries and races in Africa as one combined subject.
While it is important for us to make continual contact with schoolchildren, I think it is perhaps even more important to make contact with school teachers. During last year the Institute had seven largely attended conferences at the teachers' training colleges; in the last two months we have had five well-attended lectures in London, again attended by members of the teachers' training colleges; and there have recently been two larger conferences, not for the training colleges, but for older teachers who are already working. Of course, our purpose is not to try to persuade school teachers to adopt any kind of political slant—that would be quite wrong. What we are trying to do is to ask them how they can help us, and to find out how we can help them, in giving more objective teaching to the schoolchildren of this country about the history of the British Commonwealth and the ideals of human freedom and inter-racial friendship for which the Commonwealth stands.
We are grateful to the great majority of local education authorities, both in England and in Scotland, for the assistance which they have given us in our aims. I should also like to express my appreciation—my noble friend Lord Lansdowne has already expressed his—to all the Dominion High Commissioners and other representatives of Commonwealth dependencies, most of whom have ex-officio seats on the Board of Governors and make substantial contributions towards the funds of the Institute for the purpose of maintaining the various Dominion and Colonial galleries. Some of the newest independent members of the Commonwealth—Ghana, for example—have been most eager to make financial contributions in order that they
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may be able to show us here what they are able to do.
I should like to make particular reference to India, because India has special difficulties about sterling currency at the present time. Every pound in sterling which the Indian Government want to spend over here has to be meticulously scrutinised before authority is given to spend it; they have most severe sterling exchange difficulties. The Indian Government, I know, would like to give more money in order to have a better Indian gallery here. The Indian High Commissioner and his Office are most helpful in discussing the means by which we might be able to do that. I hope that it may be possible for our Director this year to be sent out on a visit to India—and possibly Pakistan and Ceylon might be included—so that he can discuss with the Indian Government what is the easiest way of providing the money and the material which they would like to provide, in order that their gallery here, which is seen perhaps by millions of people, should give more effective demonstration than it does now of the cultural contribution and the economic contribution which India makes to the Commonwealth and to the world.
I wish that I had time to tell your Lordships a little more about the work which the Institute is trying to do, but I must conclude with a word or two about the new building which is envisaged by this Bill. The overriding consideration behind the Bill is the urgent and imperative need of the Royal College of Science to extend on the premises now occupied by the Commonwealth Institute. Any delay in that extension might have an adverse effect on the future scientific preeminence of Great Britain in the world. Therefore, there must be no delay. They have got to finish moving in by 1961, and the Commonwealth Institute has to get its new building in Holland Park finished and ready to move into so that we can make way for the College of Science by the end of 1961.
The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, asked about the transitional arrangements between now and then. I do not think I need say much about that matter. The Institute will have to be closed for only a short period of two months in March and April of this year. Apart from that, I think that all its activities will be able

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to continue—I hope upon an increasing scale. Arrangements have been made for all the Commonwealth and Dominion Galleries to be temporarily housed in adjacent buildings Both the Imperial College of Science and the Government Departments concerned have been very helpful and co-operative, and the Board of Governors have no complaint to make about these transitional arrangements.
Your Lordships will probably be more interested in our ultimate target of getting this new building put up in Holland Park by the end of 1961, a building of major importance both to London and to the Commonwealth. It will have to be built under limitations which I think your Lordships will agree are pretty tight. There is the financial limitation—I understand that the maximum sum we are allowed to spend on this new building is £600,000. Perhaps I may quote what was said on the Second Reading of this Bill in another place by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour—and repeated, I think, by my noble friend Lord Lansdowne this afternoon. He said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 582 (No. 50), col. 306.]:
"On the question of costs, the cost allowed for the building has been fixed at a figure which, we think, should allow for imaginative planning and good quality finishes, but will, nonetheless, offer, as any new project should, a challenge to economy in design and construction."
I should like to say that I most emphatically agree with the second part of that statement, and I shall not make any comment about the first part.
As to space, we are limited in the Bill to 125,000 cubic feet, which is the absolute minimum we require for the continuance of our present work. I am told that it is constitutionally necessary to put that figure in the Bill, and I am also advised that if, by any chance, any generous private donor should endow us with a large sum to undertake some new activity and extend the building, it would not be difficult to get an amending Act passed. But the most important limitation of all is that of time. We have to get the work finished by the end of 1961. So the task which confronts us now is to erect this building, which will not only be required for the practical purposes, which are of great importance to the Commonwealth, but also be of major significance to the Commonwealth and
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to London, which is the capital of the Commonwealth.
We want it to be a building which may be admired not only by our own people but also by the large numbers of Commonwealth visitors who come here. That is what we have to try to do with £600,000 in three years. I think it is the kind of task which might well have been imposed on the Israelities in Egypt by the Pharaoh who knew not Joseph:
"And the taskmasters of the people went out, and their officers, and they spake to the people, saying, Thus saith Pharaoh, I will not give you straw. … And the taskmasters hasted them, saying, Fulfil your works, your daily tasks, as when there was straw."
Then when the Israelites went and complained about this to Pharaoh, and told him:
"There is no straw given unto thy servants, and they say to us, Make brick; and, behold, thy servants are beaten"
Pharaoh merely replied:
"Ye are idle, ye are idle. … Go therefore now and work: for there shall no straw be given you, yet shall ye deliver the tale of bricks."
It seems to me that is very much the position in which my Board of Governors have now been placed by Her Majesty's Government.
When we first considered the problem last July, the first decision we came to was that if we were going to ask a number of architects to submit competitive plans and drawings, so that someone might judge which would be the best architect to choose, we might then perhaps reach the stage of laying the foundation stone of this new building just about the time when we were, in fact, to have it finished and occupied. So we—that is, the Board of Governors—took the step of making up our own minds at once on the firm of architects who we felt would be most likely to do the job as we wanted it done within the prescribed limits of time. We made our recommendation in July to the Minister, and our recommendation was accepted by the Trustees in December. At one time it was feared that it might be constitutionally impossible even to appoint the architect until this Bill had reached the Statute Book, but we were advised that it would be all right if we instructed the architects to go ahead on the understanding that it all depended upon the passing of this Bill. So we had a conference in December with the architects,

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to whom we had submitted a detailed schedule of every square foot of our requirements, in every lecture room, every exhibition gallery, and for all the other accommodation which we require, right down to the last coathanger; and we have instructed the architects to get to work and produce plans and detailed drawings showing the fulfilment of those requirements.
I do not think we can expect to get the plans for another six or seven months, and then they will have to be approved, I think, by the L.C.C., and certainly by the Ilchester Trustees from whom the site has been acquired. That may perhaps take a little longer, and I myself can see no reason why all plans should not also be shown to any person who may be considered, or who may consider himself to be, a good judge of architecture so that all the howls of execration which I feel bound to anticipate may be uttered before it is too late for us to pay any attention to the howlers.
I think it is a very good plan to get all the howls as quickly as possible, and I would only ask your Lordships, and everyone else, to bear in mind that when we have only £600,000, and only three years in which to do the job, it is impossible to produce a Palace of Versailles—in fact, at the present rate of building costs, I doubt if one could produce even the Petit Trianon. We certainly shall not be able to please everybody; I do not know whether we shall even succeed in pleasing ourselves, but my only consolation is that if the Government had given us £10 million, and allowed us ten years, even then I do not expect that we should have been able to please everybody. But we are deeply anxious to get a building which will be worthy of the significance which it will have for the Commonwealth. We are anxious that its appearance should be worthy of its purpose as well as its utility, and all I can say is that we shall do our best to get a modern building—it will have to be a modern building—which may combine the most strictly economical methods of construction with, I hope, grace and dignity, and which will at least not be despised by the future citizens of the British Commonwealth.
5.52 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lords who have taken part in this
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debate. First I will try to answer the questions that have been put to me by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, was good enough to give me advance notice of some of the questions he has asked, so I hope I shall be able to give him satisfactory answers. The noble Lord was somewhat anxious about the question of inaccessibility, as I think he put it, and transportation to the new site. I have gone into that matter carefully and it seems to me that the noble Lord's anxieties are somewhat ill-founded. To start with, I think he will agree that a large number of the visitors to the present Imperial Institute go there by charabanc. That, no doubt, will continue to be the practice. But for those who do not so travel there are innumerable buses which pass by, through Kensington High Street—ordinary buses and Green Line buses as well. So far as the Underground is concerned, I have had inquiries made and it appears that the Inner Circle and District lines pass through High Street Kensington Station and it is about five minutes' walk from the station to the new site. But I must, of course, admit to the noble Lord that that five minutes' walk will be in the open and not under cover.
LORD OGMORE: Five minutes walk by whom—Chris Brasher? Because it is quite a long way, I think one would have to be a "mile in four minutes man" to do it in five minutes from High Street Kensington Station.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am afraid that I have not measured the ground myself; I am only giving the noble Lord the figures I have received, and if they are incorrect I will certainly try to correct them for him. There does not appear to be any serious difference in the facilities for getting to the new site and for getting to the old site. In regard to a matter that I think also worried the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, there is one big advantage: that is the question of parking space. I understand from the Director that there should be sufficient parking space for twenty-five charabancs and seventy-five private cars. That, surely, should be amply sufficient for the requirements there.
Then the noble Lord raised the question of the Trustees and the Governors. I should like to go into that point very

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briefly. I will not detain your Lordships by discussing the present Trustees, because the names of the Trustees were circulated at the noble Lord's request. The names of the Governors and the composition of the Board has not so far been circulated. The Chairman, as you all know, is my noble friend the Earl of Dundee. The Vice-Chairman is Sir Griffith Williams. The members of the Board of Governors are the following: Sir Arthur Kirby, Commissioner, East Africa; Mr. R. Beloe, Chief Education Officer, Surrey; Sir Robert Russell, Indian Civil Service—and he is particularly responsible for Scotland as the chairman of the Scottish Committee of the Institute; Mr. M. T. Mbu, Commissioner for Nigeria; Mr. H. L. Bullock, who was chairman of the Trades Union Congress from 1949 to 1951 (I am not quite sure of my dates but in 1949 he was certainly chairman): Mr. G. H. Gordon, Trade Commissioner for the West Indies; Miss Mary Glasgow, former Secretary of the Arts Council; Sir Ronald Gould, General Secretary of the National Union of Teachers; Mr. F. S. Joelson, Editor of East Africa and Rhodesia; at the moment there are two co-opted members, Sir Donald Anderson, Vice-Chairman of the P. & O. Company, with, as you know, great interests in Australasia; and Mrs. I. M. Spry, wife of the Agent-General for Saskatchewan. I think your Lordships will agree it is a fairly wide ranging list of Governors, and all those people appear to me to be eminently qualified to be members of such a Board.
The noble Lord asked me a question about cost, which has in large measure been replied to by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee. The figure which appears in the Bill is £725,000; that is the total amount which is allowed for. It does not appear in our version but in the version of the other place it is there. As to the question of the lease, I think the noble Lord will agree that 999 years is pretty well as good as ownership.
LORD OGMORE: It depends also upon what are the covenants in the lease. It may not be anything like as good as ownership. If there are restrictive covenants or covenants which enable the freeholder to take back the land under certain conditions, it may not be nearly
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as advantageous as freehold. That is the reason, I understand, why the Government usually insist on freehold.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am not in possession of the detailed legal facts. If the noble Lord wishes me to obtain them I shall be pleased to do so.
The question of transitional arrangements which the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, raised was, I think, admirably answered by my noble friend Lord Dundee. Indeed, I have an assurance from the Director himself that he is not unduly perturbed about how things will go. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, raised the question whether every possible use would be made of modern facilities for display, and I can assure him that the Director is very much alive to that matter. In fact, when I went around the Institute with him and we looked at the displays which he has there, he explained to me in some detail what he proposes to do in the new Institute. I can assure the noble Lord that full use will be made of dioramas and moving pictures. As to the question of the cinema, there will be a cinema in the new building and it will be slightly larger than the cinema in the old one. I think that I did make it clear, or I tried to make it clear in the course of my opening remarks, that nothing that is in this Bill prohibits the planning of the new building to make allowances for further developments, and I can assure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government will take due consideration of that point and provision will be made for additions should they prove practicable.
On the question of travelling conferences, I looked in the book which the noble Lord himself has and I see that during 1955, at least, Wales was not so neglected. I have not the details for last year but only the figures, so it may well be that Wales was not overlooked last year either. But certainly note will be taken of the suggestion of the noble Lord, and I think Lord Dundee has already made a mental note of it.
LORD OGMORE: The noble Marquess means the suggestion that, if possible, something should be done during the Festival year?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: It is not for me to say that, but I understood that the noble Earl had taken the

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point and that it will be given due consideration.
With regard to the observations of Sir Eric Harrison, we have heard from various noble Lords that what the Commonwealth Institute stands for is to combat exactly the state of affairs about which Sir Eric Harrison was talking. In my own opinion, the High Commissioner was perhaps somewhat exaggerating the situation; but there is a distressing ignorance, and that is one of the things which we hope will be corrected through the work of the Commonwealth Institute.
I think the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, asked me a question about the scale of grants. Even if he did not do so, I feel that I should have given them to your Lordships, so I will give them to Lord Ogmore now. The scale of grants has been steadily increasing. In 1950–51 it was £12,000; in 1955–56 it was £24,000; in 1956–57 it was £36,000; and in 1957–58 it was £40,000. In addition to those grants there was a sum of nearly £13,000 which came from the Governments of Commonwealth countries themselves. I believe I have now answered all the questions that Lord Ogmore raised. I should, however, like to associate myself with him in the tribute which he paid to the late Lord Hudson.
I should like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, that, without any prompting from me, the Director of the Institute said how grateful he personally and his staff were for the work which had been done by the Tweedsmuir Committee; and as Lord Dundee has already told your Lordships, although their Report was not adopted it has indeed been followed in many respects. I should also like to associate myself with Lord Milverton in congratulating the Director of the Institute and his staff on the work that they are doing, and also to wish them every success in the new premises to which they go. The noble Lord, Lord Milverton, referred to the question of publicity by the Institute. No doubt that is a matter which may well be considered by the Board of Governors; it is not one upon which I should like to pass comment.
Lord Dundee has assured your Lordships that the activities of the Institute have been steadily expanding, and indeed over the last five years there has been a remarkable increase in all the activities
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of the Institute. As to the rather plaintive note of Lord Dundee, which drew from him his admirable quotation from the Bible, all I may say to him is that I pray that he and his fellow Governors will not be idle, but will get on with the job and will spend the money wisely, quickly and well, as I am sure they will. My Lords, I do not wish to detain you any longer. I am grateful for the "sendoff" to this Second Reading, and I wish, with all my heart, that when this Bill eventually becomes law the work that the Institute is doing will grow and will continue to be of the great value that it has been in the past.
On Question, Bill read 2a; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

OVERSEAS SERVICE BILL
6.6. p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

OVERSEAS RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT BILL
6.7 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PERTH): My Lords. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Earl of Perth.)
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, even at this hour, which is, for us, somewhat late. I feel that this is too important a measure to pass without a word being said on Third Reading. I shall not detain your Lordships long, but there are one or two matters to which I want to refer. I should have raised them on Second Reading, but I arrived back from Nigeria only on Monday and therefore I had no opportunity of doing so. First of all, I would say that I am sorry that the Government have not taken the same course in regard to the Colonial Development Corporation as they did with regard to the old Imperial Institute whose affairs we have been considering—namely, to turn it into a Commonwealth Development Corporation, for I believe

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that as the years go by, that title will more truly represent its character. Perhaps in the course of time the Government will consider that point. It has been put to them on numerous occasions, and on the next occasion that a Bill relating to overseas resources comes before your Lordships' House they might insert a proviso changing the name in this way.
The second regret that I have is that the Corporation is excluded from projects in colonial territories which have become independent, except for schemes which are already in being at the time when the country or Colony becomes independent, and except as agents. I have no objection to those provisos—in fact, I fully agree with them. The last thing I should want would be to see the Corporation estopped from completing schemes which it had undertaken to commence and pursue. Moreover, as I have for years past advocated in your Lordships' House that the Colonial Development Corporation should act as agents, it would ill become me now to quibble when the Government are making provision for it to do so. I agree with that portion of the Bill, but I think that it is a mistake to have excluded the Corporation from territories which have become independent—what we call emergent territories—where such emergent territories desire it to engage in operations, and also where the Corporation itself desires to operate schemes of one kind or another.
There can be no involvement of United Kingdom money in the sense of providing grants or loans, because, of course, the Colonial Development Corporation would expect to recover the money that it spends, together with interest on that money; so that there can be no objection from that point of view. I believe, from what has been said by spokesmen who on several occasions have enunciated policy, that Her Majesty's Government have the wrong idea about these emergent territories. They appear to think that when an emergent territory becomes independent we can push it off, just as a Victorian father used to push off a younger son, with £50 cash and a gold watch, saying. "There you are, boy, get out into the cold, hard world and do your best."
In these days, it is quite impossible for any country to stand en its own feet economically; and many countries, in
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spite of the fact that they have become independent, need a considerable amount of assistance. We need it here ourselves. Since the war we have had a great deal of assistance, and so has practically every other country. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, the noble Earl, Lord Perth, and myself, among others, were at the Independence celebrations in Malaya. I am sure that the noble and learned Viscount will bear me out that it was perfectly obvious that that country has a large number of problems to face, economic as well as others; and if we do not help them, in this and other ways, they will be tempted to go to other countries and other sources for aid—sources that may be, to say the least, antipathetic and even hostile to us. They do not want to do it, but they may be driven to go to other sources for help. I will not elaborate upon this point because this is a Third Reading, but I believe that it is a mistake to make a provision of this kind which prohibits the Corporation from operating in these territories in the circumstances which I have described.
The final point I want to make is a rather different one—as to the policy of the Corporation itself. This applies particularly to Clause 2 of the Bill, under which a large sum of money is placed at its disposal, and the amount which the Corporation may borrow is increased. What are the purposes for which the Corporation is going to borrow this money, and how is it to spend it? What are the conditions under which the Corporation is to assist colonial territories? When the Corporation was formed, the object was to assist in the development of the resources of the colonial territories. We knew very well that at that time there were a number of resources in the colonial territories which, for one reason or another, could not be developed by private enterprise; and it was hoped that these resources, many of which could be dealt with only on a long-term basis, would be developed by the Colonial Development Corporation, either in conjunction with Colonial Governments or otherwise.
It now seems—it may be on the instruction of Her Majesty's Government—that the Corporation has lately changed its policy and in one or two instances it appears to have been the case that the Corporation is unwilling to participate in schemes in colonial territories if there

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is no private enterprise partner with a substantial financial interest and no private enterprise management. I am not saying that, under certain conditions, it may not be desirable to have a private enterprise partner or management: it may be that in certain conditions it is. The case that I am making is that where, for one reason or another, desirable schemes are held up because the Corporation insists upon private enterprise management or private enterprise capital, and that management or capital cannot be provided, that surely is running against the whole intention of the original Act, and the Acts which have followed it; and. I should say, is quite inimical to the whole purpose of the Colonial Development Corporation.
The kind of scheme that I have in mind is one in which there is no quick or ready return but which is a long-term project that will be of enormous interest to the Colonial territory and will develop not only the actual project but also a large number of undertakings, such as electricity, railways and the like. It may be fundamental to the development of the economy of a particular territory for a particular project to be undertaken. It may well he that at that stage private enterprise may say (one cannot blame them, and I am not blaming them for saying it): "This is not the kind of project in which we can invest our shareholders' money. It will be rather a long-term project. Undoubtedly it will be of great benefit to the country and community, but it is not one in which we are entitled to invest, so far as our shareholders are concerned." What then is to happen to the project? If the Corporation does not come in and assist, who is going to do so?
The particular Colony itself may not have available the finance or the technical skill necessary to bring the project to fruition. That is the kind of difficulty we are up against, and I believe that if the Corporation, on the instructions of Her Majesty's Government, is maintaining that kind of view, it will be most detrimental to many important schemes in the colonial territories. The noble Lord, Lord Reith, talking in the Report of the Corporation for 1956 about new business, said in paragraph 8:
"Tests applied are: (a) eligibility in terms of 1956 Act. (b) good development endorsed by territorial Government: (c) viability both as to
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scheme as a whole and CDC participation; (d) availability of expert management when appropriate, with substantial financial stake; (e) association with local interests".
The noble Lord, Lord Reith, does not state there, in terms, the necessity for private enterprise partners with substantial financial interest and private enterprise management before he will participate. He might be held vaguely to be referring to that under (d), when speaking of "availability of expert management ", but he does not say so; and all the expertise is not in private management—there is some elsewhere. In the 1954 Report and Accounts of the Corporation the noble Lord, Lord Reith, and his colleagues said, on page 6:
"(1) Management. (a) CDC has paid heavily for inefficient management and supervision it has also found that private enterprise has not always efficient management for hire; (b) there is no complete alternative to the hard way of training up one's own staff."
With that I would agree. In many cases, it is impossible to find suitable management, either in private enterprise or otherwise, and it is necessary to build up one's own staff; and therefore to make it a condition that there should be private enterprise management may mean, on the noble Lord's own showing, that there can be no participation at all.
With those few objections, my Lords, I support the one or two parts of the Bill to which I have referred, although as I say, I think it is unfortunate that the Government have not taken the opportunity in this Bill to remedy the defects to which I have drawn attention.
6.21 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I am glad that we have had the opportunity of hearing Lord Ogmore, who has always shown such a particular interest in the affairs of the Colonial Development Corporation. He was away on important business in Nigeria at the time of Second Reading, but I am glad that we have had the opportunity today of hearing his points. On the question of the name, I think we discussed that matter rather fully on Second Reading. The point was made that if there was some difficulty where the Colonial Development Corporation was operating in Commonwealth territory, it was perfectly open to the Corporation to set up a subsidiary which had a Commonwealth name in order to get over that difficulty.

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So far as the scope of the Corporation's activities is concerned, we remain very anxious that the funds which it has should be, by and large, devoted to the purpose for which it was set up—namely, the development of the Colonies. The Colonies still have immense scope for development: they are always needing new capital. Quite frankly, apart entirely from any other policy reasons, we should rather see the situation left as it is, in that what has been allowed for future development of the Corporation's purposes is, in a sense, not enough for the Colonies, so that it would be a great mistake to go outside.
When we come to the question of the territories which have recently been made independent, it is not true, if I may say so, that we just throw them by, and say, "There you are; there is £50—off you go into the world!" In fact, they continue to get assistance in one way or another from us. It may not be direct Government-to-Government assistance in the way of money—we went into great detail in the White Paper as to why we thought that was not normally appropriate—but there are other ways of helping. The London market is available and there is the assistance coming from private enterprise; great investments may be made and there are all the ordinary matters of that kind. There may be a certain amount of exaggerated fear about what happens, and certainly so far as the countries which have recently become independent are concerned they are themselves (if I may put it this way) pretty well off. That is true of Malaya; it is true of Ghana; and it will be true, if we take another example, of Nigeria. So I think that the fears which have been mentioned are exaggerated, and it is right that the Colonial Development Corporation should continue to operate mainly in the Colonies.
The third point which the noble Lord raised was whether there had not been some change in policy on the part of the Colonial Development Corporation so far as it operated schemes which were in measure marginal schemes, and whether it was no longer prepared to go into these unless it had a partner which was a private-enterprise partner. I can assure the noble Lord that there is no foundation for that fear at all. If he looks at the
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Report of 1956 he will see that in that year eight new schemes were started. Of those eight new schemes, half were schemes in which the Corporation alone was operating. In another one, both Government and private enterprise collaborated, and in the other three, private enterprise was partner.
Coming to more recent times, I would point out that only a short while ago we were asked by the Corporation to approve a scheme involving over £1 million, and that scheme was a very important scheme for the development of the particular Colony. They were anxious to have, if they could, private enterprise to collaborate with them in it, but they approached various firms who knew the territory, and for one reason or another none of them was anxious to go in. That does not mean to say the scheme was not in every way highly suitable and that one of these days it will not be very profitable. That did not deter the Corporation: they went ahead, and in due course I feel sure we shall see how wise they were and how unwise the others were not to join in.
On the other hand, I can think of a case in which the Government of a territory was very much interested in a large scheme, which would have entailed very important results for that territory and in which they would have gone into partnership with a group of private firms for the development of the scheme. For one reason or another, the farther they looked into it the less the private firms liked it, and one after the other they withdrew. Then the Government approached the Colonial Development Corporation and asked whether they would join in. The Colonial Development Corporation looked into the matter carefully but came to the conclusion that it just did not measure up to what they wanted, to what they thought they were justified in doing. Therefore, in that case, they said, "No, we are a little nervous about this; nervous about the fact that a lot of other people have withdrawn; and at this moment we would rather not go through with it."
It may be that we all have our own pet schemes and that we should like this or that scheme to be developed for the benefit of this, that or the other territory; but, my Lords, I think that that is where the Colonial Development

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Corporation must be allowed to use its own judgment, and that is indeed why we set up this Corporation originally in the form in which it was set up. But I can assure the noble Lord that there is no change in the general policy which has been followed previously. And so we come now to the end of the debate. It may not be all that the noble Lord
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and some other noble Lords opposite would have wished for, but it has gone some way, and let us and let them be grateful for the small things.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.
House adjourned at twenty-eight minutes past six o'clock.