Sitting of 11 December 1958

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  EDINBURGH CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read a Second time; to be considered Tomorrow.

PETITIONS (COTTON INDUSTRY)
Mr. S. Silverman: I desire to ask the leave of the House to present a Petition from some 24,000 residents in Nelson, in Colne, in Brierfield and in Barrow-ford, making up the bulk of the Nelson and Colne constituency.
Among other things, the Petition shows that these towns are dependent almost entirely on the cotton industry, that they have done real work in improving production since the Second World War, but they are now suffering severe unemployment and severe depression by reason of the sad falling off of the export trade and of the simultaneous importation into the home market of goods of the same kind at prices with which they cannot compete. The imported textile products, being produced in countries with a low standard of living, can be sold in this country at a price with which it is impossible for the Lancashire industry to compete.
After reciting various other relevant and important factors, the Petition continues:
Your Petitioners therefore humbly pray that your Honourable House will take action without delay to limit the import of cheap textiles produced under unfair competitive conditions, and will devote itself to saving the cotton towns of Lancashire from becoming derelict by taking prompt action to stimulate and revive the cotton industry.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
To lie upon the Table.
Mr. Burke: With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I desire to present a Petition on behalf of 26,000 persons in the County Borough of Burnley, in Lancashire. This is one of a number of Petitions which I understand other hon. Members desire to present on behalf of other towns in Lancashire grievously affected by the serious decline in the cotton trade of this country.
The humble Petition of the inhabitants of the County Borough of Burnley, in the County of Lancaster, shows that
Your Petitioners are resident in the County Borough of Burnley and are dependent in very large measure either directly or indirectly upon the textile industry for their livelihood.
That for upwards of a century the textile industry has been the staple industry of the County Borough of Burnley and the surrounding area, and although it has enjoyed periods of prosperity it has also suffered periods of unemployment resulting in its being an unstable industry.
That in times of need those engaged in the textile industry have responded admirably to the Government's call for greater production.
That during the last several years there has been a reduction of textile exports for many reasons which are well-known to your Honourable House, including the competition caused by foreign customers entering into the textile manufacturing industry and the importation—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but under the rules an hon. Member presenting a Petition should give only the material allegations, namely, the gist of the Petition.
Mr. Burke: The Petition states that the decline in the textile industry has caused a great deal of unemployment in the area and that, as a consequence of the closing down of mills, there is at present a feeling of great despondency in the town. It continues:
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House will take immediate action to limit the import of cheap textiles produced under unfair competitive conditions; will devote itself to saving the cotton towns of Lancashire from becoming derelict by taking immediate action to stimulate and revive the cotton industry, and will use all possible means to encourage the establishment of new industries in the County Borough of Burnley. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
To lie upon the Table.
Mr. H. Hynd: I ask leave to introduce a Petition which is from over 11,000 citizens of Accrington. The Petition recites the circumstances under which Accrington is suffering in a similar manner to that which has been described by my two hon. Friends from other parts of the County Palatine. After reciting the circumstances and the difficulties, the Petition continues:
Wherefore, your Petitioners pray your Honourable House that immediate and effective action will be taken in order to create a situation in which the Lancashire textile industry, both employers and employees, can prosper in conditions of fair competition by restricting the importation of textile goods produced under unfair conditions, by expanding the foreign market for home-produced goods by making provision for cotton textile exports in trade agreements negotiated by the Government…
It concludes:
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
To lie upon the Table.
Mr. Houghton: I beg leave to present a Petition on behalf of 5,000 citizens of the municipal Borough of Todmorden which, although in the West Riding of Yorkshire, is heavily dependent upon the cotton textile industry. The Petitioners from Todmorden address this honourable House in terms very similar to those of the Petitions of my hon. Friends and draw especial attention to the decline in the level of industry in the town, the fall in the population and the undermining of the stability of the locality on account of this decline. The Petitioners
humbly pray that your Honourable House will take action without delay to limit the import of low-priced, duty-free textiles and will devote itself to saving the cotton towns from becoming derelict by taking prompt action to stimulate and revive the cotton industry. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Summer Time
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, as an experiment for one year, he will extend Summer Time for two weeks in order to give the majority of people the benefit of extra daylight.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): I prefer to await the result of the consideration of the duration of Summer Time which, as I informed my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Sir A. Bossom), is now being undertaken by the National Farmers Union of England and Wales and of Scotland.
    Captain Pilkington: Will my right hon. Friend incline himself to consider the advantages of this suggestion? if he can see his way to do so, will he try the experiment to see whether the amount of disapproval he gets is outweighed by the amount of approval?
    Mr. Butler: I must await this specialist opinion of the farmers in England and Wales and in Scotland, because they are more affected than anybody else.

    Flogging
    Mr. Osborneasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the public disquiet over recent bank robberies, wage-snatchings and attacks on defenceless women, Her Majesty's Government will take steps immediately to reintroduce flogging for all crimes of violence.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The evidence does not support the view that when flogging was available for certain crimes—which did not include all crimes of violence— it had the especially effective influence as a deterrent which is now frequently attributed to it. Indeed, after the abolition of flogging, crimes for which it was intended to be a sanction declined.
    Mr. Osborne: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that there is a great deal of public disquiet over these crimes of violence? May I ask whether my right hon. Friend has made up his mind that

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    he will never reintroduce flogging, no matter how high the crime wave reaches? If not, to what height has the crime wave to go before action will be taken?
    Mr. Butler: I cannot answer hypothetical questions on this matter. I can only give my present opinion and my present intention.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Will the Home Secretary re-emphasise that within living memory flogging has never been the penalty for all crimes of violence?
    Mr. Butler: It was limited severely before 1948. It was more general about 100 years ago, but thereafter it was limited to a few particular crimes—mainly those under Section 23 (1) of the Larceny Act, 1916.
    Dame Florence Horsbrugh: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is growing anxiety in this country about these crimes? Will he consider what action should be taken and bear in mind that this anxiety in the country is growing?
    Mr. Butler: I think that I have been quite active in this direction. As I have informed the House on many other occasions, including a long debate in the House and several previous Questions upon the same subject, I propose in due course to announce my intentions on this matter. It is difficult to repeat oneself indefinitely, as appears to be permitted by Parliamentary procedure, but on a future occasion, when I have more time, I will do my best to satisfy my right hon. Friend's quite reasonable apprehensions on this matter. The situation is certainly very difficult.

    Mescalin and Lysergic Acid Diethylamide
    Dr. D. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the dangerous hallucinogenic properties of such new drugs as mescalin and lysergic acid diethylamide; and when he proposes to bring these drugs under the Dangerous Drugs Acts.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Yes, Sir. I am informed that there is no evidence that these drugs are addiction-producing; it would not, therefore, be appropriate to control them under the Dangerous Drugs Act. 1951.
    Dr. Johnson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in spite of what he said, the first of these drugs is what one might call a somewhat fashionable drug today, owing to the unusual visual experiences which it produces, while the second is a very powerful drug which is in frequent use at psychiatric clinics and gives most unusual effects? Will he watch the use of these and related substances very closely?
    Mr. Butler: I will gladly receive any information given by my hon. Friend. These drugs could not appropriately be brought under the scope of the Pharmacy and Poisons Act, 1933, and I am not sure that to list them as poisons would not tend to draw attention to them and stimulate demand. I am doing my best to control distribution, and I shall value any information which my hon. Friend can give me.

    Aliens (Visas)
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what decision has been reached regarding the application forwarded by the hon. Member for Eton and Slough on behalf of two Ukrainian residents of Slough for their fiancÉes to be permitted to enter the United Kingdom so that they may marry.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: As the hon. Member has been informed, I am prepared to authorise the grant of visas in these cases, provided the applicants can produce to the Visa Officer in Belgrade travel documents bearing adequate return facilities to Yugoslavia.
    Mr. Brockway: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware how much the prospective bridegrooms appreciate the speedy and sympathetic action of the Home Office in this matter—and undoubtedly the brides, too? I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman would be prepared to act as best man at these weddings.
    Mr. Butler: The Home Office is always ready to further the course of true love. The question is whether the Home Secretary has the liberty and freedom to perform such an honourable office as the hon. Member suggests.

    Immigration Officers, London Airport
    Mr. Teelingasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the average age of immigration officers at

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    London Airport; the age of the youngest working there; and the grade of official to whom they are directly responsible when they refer a case to his Department by telephone.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The average age is 33. The youngest officer is 18; he is under training, and in dealing with passengers works under close supervision by an older colleague. All immigration officers at London Airport work under the control of chief immigration officers. An immigration officer requiring guidance consults his chief immigration officer, who in case of doubt refers the case to the Chief Inspector at the Home Office.
    Mr. Teeling: Does not my right hon. Friend think that there could be some reform by not having only young men of 18 to 33 looking after a problem concerning foreigners, who may suffer a good deal and be turned back? As my right hon. Friend will have seen from The Times the other day, there is a strong feeling that there ought to be some kind of further appeal and further authority in what are very serious cases affecting people coming from abroad.
    Mr. Butler: It is very difficult for immigration officers whatever age they are. There must be one or two young officers in order that they may learn. The recruitment age is from 18 to 30 and therefore some must be young. When they are young we see that they are supervised by somebody older.

    Civil Defence
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallettasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consider the institution of a long service medal for members of the Civil Defence Corps on a basis analogous to the medals given to the ambulance service or special constabulary.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Representations that such a medal should be instituted have been received, and are being considered. I am not yet, however, able to make any statement in the matter.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he would agree that it is both customary and desirable
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    that those who give long service to a great voluntary movement of this nature should receive some form of public recognition?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. That is partly why I have the matter under examination.
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the statement by Lieutenant-Colonel Cowley, a Civil Defence officer, that enrolling for Civil Defence by local businessmen and shop assistants would have a considerable bearing on their remaining in their normal employment in their home locality in time of war, was made with his authority.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Renton): No. Sir. My right hon. Friend is informed that Lieut.-Colonel Cowley made it clear that he was expressing his personal opinion.
    Mr. Allaun: Nevertheless, does that statement represent the Minister's view? Is he aware that it is being widely regarded as a form of blackmail to get people to join the Civil Defence? Will he instruct his officers not to use this undesirable form of inducement in future?
    Mr. Renton: No, Sir. That statement does not represent Government policy, as I said in the main Answer. I am not aware of any form of blackmail of the kind which the hon. Member suggests. The official recruiting leaflet on Civil Defence says:
    "Your part-time service as a member of the Civil Defence Corps does not relieve you from any legal requirement to which you might be subject in war-time, e.g., service with Her Majesty's Forces or liability to take or remain in other work of national importance."

    London Taxis (Fares)
    Mr. Usborneasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make a statement about London taxi fares.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have today made an Order making permanent the increase of 6d. for each hiring which I provisionally authorised last year to meet the increase in the cost of operating London taxis since the fares were last fixed in 1951. This increase will, as meters are altered, be included in the hiring charge shown on the meter and cease to be a surcharge.

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    I have also decided to authorise an extra charge of 1s. for each hiring beginning or ending between midnight and 6 a.m.
    Mr. Usborne: Does the Home Secretary realise that since September, 1957, and certainly in recent months, it has been the almost invariable habit of taxi drivers when picking up a fare to register a 6d. surcharge on the meter? Therefore, to have a placard inside the cab indicating that there is a surcharge of 6d. to be added to the amount on the meter is a little confusing to some country bumpkins like myself. Would the right hon. Gentleman consider seeing that the notice of surcharge is taken from the inside of the cab when the 6d. is already shown on the meter outside?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I think that we might avoid duplication of the kind to which the hon. Member refers. I am told that it will take about a year to change all the meters, though many can be changed earlier than that.

    Dogs (Destruction Orders)
    Sir.J. Lucasasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will amend the law pertaining to the destruction, on a magistrate's ruling, of dogs which, from lack of, or faulty, training, have misbehaved themselves, by allowing them to be sent to an approved quarantine or boarding kennel or other institution where they can do no damage, thereby enabling their owners to avoid the £1 a day penalty.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I regret that I cannot hold out any hope of Government legislation for this purpose.
    Sir J. Lucas: Will my right hon. Friend make a statement on the case of "Lassie" which was ordered by the magistrates to be destroyed? Pending an appeal to quarter sessions, the owner gave it away to a Miss Atherton, who has an animal sanctuary, without informing her of the circumstances, the dog now being perfectly well behaved. Meanwhile, the former owner, who is on public assistance, is liable to a fine of £1 a day during the dog's life. The new owner refuses to give the dog up and the police have no power to enter the premises to collect it.
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I suspected that my hon. Friend might have this case in
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    mind. I have some difficulty in intervening because, though I might consider the suggestion that the penalty should be remitted, I must at the same time see that the court's orders are obeyed. If my hon. Friend will leave the matter to me we might have a talk together about it and see what might be done.

    Attempted Suicide
    Mr. G. Jegerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a girl aged 17 years was sentenced to three months' imprisonment at Woolwich on 2nd December for attempting to commit suicide; and whether he will ensure that she receives any necessary treatment whilst in prison.
    Mr. Renton: Yes, Sir. The Senior Medical Officer of Holloway prison considers that she is mentally ill and is taking steps to see that she gets proper treatment.
    Mr. Jeger: Would the Under-Secretary agree that a child of 17 who attempts to commit suicide is far more in need of care and attention than of a prison sentence? Would it not be better if she were removed to a proper place where she could receive that care and attention rather than be in prison surroundings?
    Mr. Renton: This girl has attempted to commit suicide on four occasions. The case has a rather long history, which it would not be right for me to try to deploy now, but it is an interesting example of how criminal proceedings and even prison sentences can ensure that a person who attempts to commit suicide gets the treatment which he or she needs.

    Drunkenness
    Mr. Simmonsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he will arrange for the Social Survey Division of the Central Office of Information, which is carrying out on his behalf an investigation among selected police forces into the continuing increase in the number of offences of drunkenness, to enlarge the scope of its investigations, in so far as it affects drunkenness among juveniles and young persons, to include consultations with youth leaders, social workers and ministers of religion;
    (2) if he will make available to the public the conclusions he comes to after receiving and considering the report he has arranged to be prepared by the Social

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    Survey Division of the Central Office of Information on increasing drunkenness; and if he will publish the statistics on which he bases his conclusions.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I think it will be wise to see what an investigation among police forces produces before deciding whether to extend it to other sources of information. When I have received the results I will consider what statement it would be appropriate to make about them.
    Mr. Simmons: The Home Secretary will be doubtless aware of the great disquiet at the increase in drunkenness among young persons. Would the right hon. Gentleman consider bringing into consultation youth officers, welfare workers and ministers, who would give a wider picture of the situation than that obtained from one or two selected police forces?
    Mr. Butler: I am trying to acquire such information as I can. When I see the information that I get from the sources that are available to the police, I will certainly bear the hon. Member's suggestion in mind.

    Hackney Carriage Drivers (Licences)
    Mr. Delargyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the administrative difficulties experienced by licensing authorities, whether he will introduce legislation to amend the relevant sections of the Town Police Clauses Act, 1847, so as to increase the powers of licensing authorities over the revocation of hackney carriage drivers' licences.
    Mr. Renton: My right hon. Friend cannot hold out any early prospect of legislation, but the suggestion has been noted for consideration in the event of a suitable opportunity for legislation occurring.
    Mr. Delargy: While thanking the hon. and learned Gentleman for advancing some way, may I ask whether he would agree that this legislation is rather overdue? For example, is not it odd that a local authority cannot revoke the licence of a person who may have been convicted for an offence under this very Act, and may even have been disqualified from driving by a judgment in court?
    Mr. Renton: Yes, Sir, we accept that the present situation is not entirely satisfactory, but fortunately these cases are rare and we could not give it high priority in the list of matters requiring legislation.

    Probation Officers
    18. Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the report of prison after care and the estimate that nearly 500 extra probationer officers will be required to implement the proposals, and in view of the fact that justices are making a diminished use of probation because of the present limited number of trained probation officers, what action is being taken to expand the present number of 1,373 probation officers to meet the implicit need.
    Mr. Renton: The Advisory Council on the Treatment of Offenders estimated that to implement its recent recommendations on after-care would require 32 extra probation officers in the first instance and another 36 at a later stage. More probation orders were made in 1957 than in any previous year and the number of trained probation officers in the service is now higher than ever before. The efforts being made to increase recruitment to training for probation work are meeting with a fair measure of success, as I explained in reply to a Question by the hon. Member on 4th December.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is it a fact that the figure of 500 is generally accepted as being the number necessary in order to improve the efficiency of this necessary service?
    Mr. Renton: No, Sir, that is not so. The Advisory Council made it clear that it did not recommend that all male prisoners should be submitted to aftercare on discharge. The figure of 500, which the hon. Gentleman has in mind, is the number of probation officers which it said would be necessary if that were done, but it did not recommend that.
    Sir F. Medlicott: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that the work of these men lies very near the heart of the solution of the problem of lessening crime, and that time and trouble expended in this direction will be invaluable, and in any case a great deal more valuable than the re-introduction of flogging?
    Mr. Renton: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend fully appreciates the value of

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    after-care work and the importance of the work done by probation officers in respect of it. The extension of after- care recommended by the Advisory Council would need legislation, and that is a matter we must bear in mind for the future.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: In view of the admitted need for more probation officers, will the Home Secretary reconsider his previous decision not to set up a committee of inquiry into the recruitment, training and functions of probation officers? Would he be prepared to receive an all-party deputation on this subject early in the New Year?
    Mr. Renton: That is an entirely separate matter.
    Mr. Greenwood: May I ask for a reply to my perfectly reasonable supplementary question?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Renton: My right hon. Friend will, of course, be glad to see any deputation from hon. Members.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many juvenile and other cases, respectively, are now being dealt with weekly by probation officers in the Metropolitan Police area and in England and Wales; what is the increase per probation officer over the past 10 years; and what is the present proportion of probation officers who are sick, or absent for other causes, compared with 5 and 10 years ago, respectively.
    Mr. Renton: As the Answer is lengthy and involves a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Sorensen: Yes, but is it true what I asked—that the number of cases has increased substantially, that an increasing number of probation officers are going sick because of overwork, and that they cannot possibly give this valuable service unless their numbers are materially increased?
    Mr. Renton: We are anxious to increase their numbers and I am glad to say that the number of officers in the Metropolitan magistrates' courts area will inevitably increase as a result of recruitment. As regards absence due to
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    sickness, there is no evidence that at the moment there is undue absence of that kind from the probation service in the Metropolitan area or elsewhere.
    Following is the Answer
    Information about cases dealt with weekly and figures for the Metropolitan Police District are not available. My right hon. Friend estimates that on 31st December, 1957, the latest date for which he has figures, the total case-load of probation officers in England and Wales comprised about 34,200 juveniles and 31,400 adults. The corresponding figures for the Metropolitan Magistrates' Courts Area were 2,800 and 3,650. Since 1951, the earliest date for which information is available, the average case-loads of men probation officers in England and Wales and in the Metropolitan Magistrates' Courts Area have increased by 2·5 and 4·1 respectively. Those of women officers have decreased by 0·3 and 4·7.
    On 8th December, of 146 officers in the Metropolitan Magistrates' Courts Area 7 were absent for reasons other than annual leave; the figures for the same date in 1953 and 1948 were respectively 4 out of 137 and 2 out of 120. Corresponding information about England and Wales is not available.
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the fact that probation officers are persons carrying on that job with dedication and inadequate pay, and in view of his proposals to extend the duties of the probation officers, and having regard to the increase in criminal and anti-social behaviour, what steps he proposes to take to provide adequate payment for such officers and to attract suitable and sufficient personnel for the service.
    Sir F. Medlicottasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the difficulty of obtaining an adequate number of entrants into the probation service because of the present level of salaries; and if he will now indicate when he will be able to increase the level of such salaries.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: A claim by probation officers for salary increases is under consideration by the Joint Negotiating Committee for the Probation Service, which will, no doubt, examine recruitment in so far as it considers it relevant. I shall give the fullest consideration to any recommendations that may be made to me by the Committee.
    Mr. Janner: Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect that he used even stronger words than I at a meeting as recently as 19th November, when he said

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    that they carried out their job with dedication on miserable pay? Is not he already convinced that the pay is miserable, and that something should be done about it? Is he now prepared to set up another committee to investigate the whole matter?
    Mr. Butler: The normal machinery is considering an increase in pay, and we had better wait for its findings. As for my own observations, I remember them very well. I do not think that any reward would be sufficient for such a dedicated service as this.
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that shortages of staff in the London Probation Service have necessitated frequent movements of staff, which have in many instances almost destroyed the sustained personal relationship between probationer and probation officer, and that the effect of this has been to force probation officers to function in an unsatisfactory manner; and what steps he proposes to take to deal with the position with a view to their being able to make full use of their skill and experience.
    Mr. Renton: London probation officers are necessarily moved from time to time to meet the needs of the courts and to give them varied experience: but only 12 out of a total of about 140 established officers have been moved to date in 1958. The movement of temporary officers is necessarily more frequent. My right hon. Friend recognises that too many changes of officers are undesirable, and he appreciates the efforts of the London staff to help probationers in the present difficult conditions. My right hon. Friend has appointed 19 new trained officers this year, and he hopes to increase the staff substantially during 1959.
    Mr. Janner: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the London probation officers are not at all satisfied with the position and that they have set up a special committee to deal with the matter vis-à-vis the Home Office? Does he really expect them to carry on this superhuman work when there are not enough members of the staff to cope with the situation?
    Mr. Renton: We know that the London probation officers are not satisfied and we understand their difficulties.
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    I am glad to say that we have a good number of recruits in training and we hope to see a great improvement in the strength of the probation service in the New Year.

    Cinemas (A Certificate Films)
    Dr. D. Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce legislation to make it an offence for adults to take children, of whose identity they are unaware, into a cinema when an A certificate film is showing.
    Mr. Renton: No, Sir.
    Dr. Johnson: Is my hon. and learned Friend aware, however, that it is a practice in many parts of the country for children to hang round the entrances to cinemas and to ask strange adults to help them get admission, and that not only does this give evil-intentioned adults unnecessary opportunities, but it likewise destroys the purpose of the A certificate?
    Mr. Renton: The admission of a child to a cinema in the company of a stranger might in certain circumstances amount to a breach of the conditions of the cinema operator's licence, and would therefore be an offence.

    Suicide and Attempted Suicide
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is now in a position to announce Her Majesty's Government's intentions with regard to the law relating to suicide and attempted suicide.
    Sir F. Medlicottasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is now able to make a statement as to the possibility of amending the law so that suicide and attempted suicide will no longer be treated as criminal offences.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: This problem is under active consideration, but I am not yet in a position to make a statement about it.
    Mr. Robinson: Does not the earlier Question of my hon. Friend the Member for Goole (Mr. G. Jeger) lend the strongest support to the case I have been pressing on the right hon. Gentleman over the past year? May I now take it from this, and his earlier reply, that the Government are in favour, in principle, of

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    amending legislation and that it is now merely a question of finding time and means?
    Mr. Butler: What is happening is that I am in consultation with my right hon. Friends the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland. I have already sought the views of the British Medical Association and the Magistrates' Association, because it is important that I should be sure of all their views. A discussion is going on within the Government and with outside bodies as to the best course to adopt and, until I have concluded that, I would rather not reach a decision.
    Sir F. Medlicott: Will my right hon. Friend take into account the enormous number of inquests in which the verdict is brought in that the suicide was due to the balance of mind being disturbed, and that this affords abundant evidence of the fact that this is a problem of mental illness rather than of crime?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir, I will certainly bear that in mind. It all fits into the general approach to mental health which we are hoping to make in the New Year. There are two sides to this question but I fully realise the apprenhensions of my hon. Friend and of the House.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Does the Home Secretary realise that whereas proper thought must be given to this question, there is a strong body of opinion that this law is out of date, that it arose for rather illogical reasons in the first place, and that the sooner it is put right the better?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I am aware of that point of view.

    Habeas Corpus
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce the necessary legislation to provide for an appeal to the House of Lords in criminal cases where a writ of habeas corpus has been refused.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have noted the remarks made by the Lord Chief Justice in delivering judgment in a recent case, and I am considering this matter in consultation with my noble Friend the Lord Chancellor.
    Mr. Fletcher: Will the Home Secretary bear in mind that the Lord Chief Justice echoed the observations of his predecessor, Lord Goddard, expressing the view that it was most desirable that there should be a change in this law so that people claiming the right to habeas corpus should have a right of appeal to the House of Lords?
    Mr. Butler: I should not like to mislead the House into thinking that legislation will come this Session, because when altering the law in respect of a matter like this, which is fundamental, we want to be sure that we have opinion with us, not only judicial opinion. I could not guarantee legislation this Session, but I can guarantee the hon. Member that I am looking into the matter.

    Football Pool Prizes
    Mr. Liptonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the undesirable social consequences of unlimited increases in football pool prizes, which have taken place since the Report of the Royal Commission on Betting and Lotteries, he will now take action to impose a limit on these prizes.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: Legislation would be required to impose a compulsory limit, and I cannot hold out any hope of its introduction by the Government at the present time.
    Mr. Lipton: Does the Home Secretary realise that the situation has got quite out of hand, because one football pool "ratted" or wriggled out of a voluntary agreement to limit pool dividends? Will he bear in mind that the Royal Commission on Betting and Lotteries recommended that pool prizes should be limited by law? Is not it desirable that if there is any jam to be spread, it should be spread a little more evenly? Is not it better to have ten prizes of £30,000 than one of £300,000, and that the second and third dividends should be a little larger than at the moment? Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to stand by and do nothing about it?
    Mr. Butler: The recommendations of the Royal Commission in this respect were not carried into effect by the Pool Betting Act, 1954. What are the social consequences following upon the gaining of such a large prize is a matter of individual opinion. At the moment, I can hold out no hope of Government action.

    Disturbance, Notting Hill (Sentences)
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will reconsider the sentences of four years imprisonment which are being served by four youths for offences during the race disturbances in Notting Hill.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I am not an appellate authority and I have no power to review sentences passed by the courts. I know of no grounds which would justify me in recommending the exercise of the Royal Prerogative of mercy in these cases.
    Mr. Brockway: The right hon. Gentleman will not think that I condone the offences. Does he agree that although a severe warning might have been necessary at that time, the individual sentences on the boys were very severe? Has he received a request from the coloured workers' organisation that there should be a remission? Is he aware that in Notting Hill the coloured workers themselves are petitioning for a remission? For the sake of good will, will he review all the sentences, for both whites and blacks?
    Mr. Butler: It is very important to understand the position of the Home Secretary in this matter. It is that I cannot review sentences passed by the courts. If I were to recommend the exercise of the Royal Prerogative of mercy—which is not confined to the most distressing capital cases, but which can be employed in cases like this—I should have to have new facts and new conditions put before me. I hope that the House realises that this case went to appeal and that the Court of Criminal Appeal upheld the findings of the lower court. In the circumstances, and in view of that situation, I do not think that there is any case for my intervention.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the sentences were imposed at a time of stress and considerable emotion and that the circumstances were most unusual and exceptional? While not in any way condoning the offences, in those circumstances, will he do something to bring about some review of the sentences?
    Mr. Butler: I have considered this, of course, but I have also to consider the
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    circumstances. The House may remember that the Court of Criminal Appeal said that it had weighed carefully and supported every word used by Mr. Justice Salmon when sentencing these youths. and thought that his words were wise, just and necessary. It was certainly an exceptional situation and nobody would wish to see anything that was unjust. However, I see no new circumstance which would justify my intervention

    Dr. Linus Pauling
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why he has failed to offer Dr. Linus Pauling any expression of regret in respect of his treatment at the hands of the immigration officers at London Airport on 31st August.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I regret that I have no more to say on this incident, which I had hoped was closed.
    Mr. Robinson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his failure in this case to make even the qualified expression of regret which he gave to Dr. NiemÖller has given rise to the suspicion that in this instance the action of the Home Office was taken at the instigation of the American State Department?
    Mr. Butler: That is rather far-fetched. I can deny that there was any question of anything like that. This case has come up in the course of our exchanges in the House. I do not wish to reopen it. I naturally regret any inconvenience which was caused, but I do not wish to reopen the case, because it was very much magnified at the time and I think that the House has had a fairer account of what happened.

    Sir Roger Casement
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent applications he has considered from American historians writing the life of Sir Roger Casement to visit Pentonville Prison; the nature of their applications; and his reply.
    Mr. Renton: There has been one such application recently, from an American historian who wished to see the place where Casement was imprisoned and where he was buried. He was informed that it is a long-established practice not to

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    allow visits to the graves of persons executed in prisons, and that the Home Secretary was sorry that he did not feel able to make an exception to the general rule in his favour.
    Mr. Hughes: As this execution took place 40 years ago, is not it rather mean to refuse an American citizen permission to see the grave?
    Mr. Renton: I am sure that on reflection the hon. Member will agree that we have to be very careful to prevent any kind of sight-seeing in prisons. It is very difficult to avoid creating precedents by agreeing in a case of this kind.

    Greyhounds (Doping)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many convictions there have been in recent years for offences involved in the doping of greyhounds.
    Mr. Renton: I regret that separate figures of such convictions are not available and could not be obtained without an amount of research which my right hon. Friend would not consider justified.
    Mr. Hughes: Is not the statistical department of the Home Office capable of finding out how many dog-doping trials there have been? Have there been as many as all that? Does not the hon. and learned Gentleman think that this so-called sport has now become a racket and a fraud, and that the public should receive greater protection?
    Mr. Renton: There is a practical difficulty here. The doping of dogs might involve any of a number of offences, such as conspiracy to defraud, breaking and entering, and sometimes larceny, and it would be necessary to obtain statistics of all those offences which had been committed and then see which had been committed in connection with the doping of dogs, in order to produce a result. It would be a major statistical exercise, and I hope that the hon. Member will not press us to incur the cost involved.

    Metropolitan Police (Detection of Forgery)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police officers with experience of detecting forgery are now
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    employed at Scotland Yard; and what training they have received.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: The detection of forgery is dealt with in the training courses through which all detective officers of the Metropolitan Police pass It is not possible to say without detailed inquiries how many officers have had experience in forgery cases.
    Mr. Hughes: Has not the Home Secretary at his disposal many experienced officers capable of detecting forgery? Would he consider submitting the Casement diaries to them for their consideration and report?
    Mr. Butler: I had foreseen that the hon. Member might introduce that subject on this Question, which relates to the training of the Metropolitan Police. I should prefer to deal with it as a separate Question on another occasion.

    Street Offences (Soliciting)
    Mrs. L. Jegerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consideration he has given to the recommendations of the Street Offences Committee, 1928. in connection with proposals to change the law affecting soliciting.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have considered the Committee's recommendations among other proposals for solving the problem of street soliciting, but I do not think that they represent a satisfactory solution of it.
    Mrs. Jeger: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Parliament has never considered the findings of this very distinguished Committee? Is he also aware that the recommendation that any change in the law to deal with molestation should apply equally to men and women commands considerable support in the country? Will he assure us that he will consider it equally with his consideration of the conflicting recommendations of Part III of the Wolfenden Report?
    Mr. Butler: I will bear that in mind. I made some reference to the difficulty in my speech the other day.
    Dr. Summerskill: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the London police could not adopt the same methods as are being operated by the police in the City of Nottingham?
    Mr. Butler: I should like to have details of those methods. I could then see what could be done.

    Flick Knives
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has considered the request for the prohibition by law of the import, manufacture or sale of flick knives, which was made to him by the Women's Group on Public Welfare and Standing Conference of Women's Organisations, which consists of representatives of 46 women's national organisations, and the resolution of the Association of Municipal Corporations passed on 4th December, copies of which have been sent to him, recommending that legislation should be introduced similar to that in force in New York prohibiting the sale or gift of such instruments; and what replies he has made.
    Mr. Renton: My right hon. Friend has carefully considered the representations made by these organisations and has said in reply that, for reasons given in reply to Questions by the hon. Member and others, he is not satisfied, on the information he has, that further legislation would be justified.
    Mr. Janner: Is not the Minister yet aware that there is tremendous agitation over this matter? When a women's organisation, representing a large section of British women, a municipal association, representing municipal authorities, and the Manchester Watch Committee all urge him to bring in legislation, is he still going to stand aside until these flick knives cause more trouble?
    Mr. Renton: We have considered these representations very carefully. One asked us to amend the Prevention of Crime Act in a way which was unnecessary, because the Act already meets the requirement suggested by that women's organisation by placing the onus of proof of lawful purposes upon the accused, and another asked us to follow a precedent from the United States which our own Prevention of Crime Act already carries out, in effect.
    Mr. Janner: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the judges, the magistrates, the municipal authorities and the women of the country do not think so? What will he do about it?
    Mr. Renton: As I have so often explained to the hon. Member—and I hope the House will forgive me for repeating it—a complete ban on these knives would be impracticable because they are sometimes needed on lawful occasions, and a partial ban would be ineffective.

  PRISONS

    Population
    Mr. V. Yatesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the present proportion of the prison population on remand awaiting trial.
    Mr. Renton: On 2nd December, 1958, the prison population totalled 22,270 of whom 1,606, or 7·2 per cent. were classified as untried prisoners.
    Mr. Yates: In view of the fact that I recently called the Minister's attention to the case of a young man in Birmingham who was in prison on remand for several months before having his trial and then was placed on probation, and in view of the fact that an eminent judge has recently called attention to this state of affairs, will the Under-Secretary consider whether it is possible for some further accommodation to be provided for such a large number of people awaiting trial rather than that they should be kept in prison? Would not that reduce the prison population considerably?
    Mr. Renton: My right hon. Friend, in consultation with the Prison Commissioners and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, is planning further prison building on a considerable scale. To meet the immediate need the Commissioners are taking steps to acquire redundant Government properties in the hope of overcoming this problem.
    Mr. Haleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department for the period of 12 months to the most recent convenient date for computation, the average daily population of local prisons for male prisoners; and how many of these are confined because of a failure to obtain or provide bail, and how many for failure to comply with any other order for the payment of money.
    Mr. Renton: In 1957 the daily average male population of local prisons was 13,283. Of these 231 were in prison in default of payment of fines, and 746 were civil prisoners, the majority of whom were in prison for failing to comply with orders to make payments of money. The number of persons imprisoned because of failure to find bail is not known.
    Mr. Hale: Is the Under-Secretary aware that it ought to be known? Is he aware that my own computations and visits to local prisons have shown that something up to 25 per cent. of the population of local prisons may be there either because of a refusal to grant bail, or because of non-compliance with an order for the payment of money? Is not that one of the principal causes of overcrowding in prisons? Is it not a matter that could be dealt with, and will the hon. and learned Gentleman call the attention of magistrates to the fundamental right of a person to bail, except in very exceptional circumstances?
    Mr. Renton: We have made a study of remands in one month earlier this year and the results of that study are now being analysed, but I have nothing more to add at the moment, except to say that it should give us some indication of the number of men on bail when remanded. Of course, my right hon. Friend has no power to give directions to the courts on how they should perform the duties placed upon them by Parliament. However, the hon. Gentleman will remember that earlier this year we passed the Maintenance Orders Act, which will come into operation early next year. We hope that that legislation will be beneficial in reducing the number of short-term prisoners.

    Conditions
    Mr. V. Yatesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of public concern at conditions in many prisons at the present time; and what facilities he will provide to enable those concerned with the administration of justice to inspect a representative selection of Her Majesty's prisons.
    Mr. Renton: Yes, Sir. As regards the second part of the Question, judges are entitled to visit any prisons, and justices of the peace to visit prisons in their area,
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    without any special facilities from my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. Yates: In view of the fact that Mr. Justice Salmon recently expressed shock at the number of persons sleeping three in a cell, would the Under-Secretary consider inviting judges specially to visit selected prisons and see particularly the appalling conditions in Strangeways, Birmingham and Dartmoor prisons? Would the Home Secretary consider this and even consider accompanying Her Majesty's judges on the inspection? It would do good to everybody.
    Mr. S. Silverman: And stay in a few days.
    Mr. Renton: I do not think that a special invitation is either necessary or appropriate, but I assure the hon. Member that judges and magistrates take full advantage of these opportunities of visiting prisons, as indeed do my right hon. Friend and myself.

    Accommodation
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many prisoners are now housed three to a cell.
    Mr. Renton: On 18th November, 1958, there were 5,925 men sleeping three in a cell out of a total prison population of 21,448 men.
    Mr. Hynd: Is not the Minister rather ashamed of this total of nearly 6,000 men sleeping three to a cell? Has his attention been drawn to the remarks of Mr. Justice Salmon about the case at Canterbury Gaol, where a man with no previous convictions was put into a cell with two men with records, a cell measuring 13 ft. 6 ins. by 7 ft. 6 ins., built over 100 years ago to accommodate one man?
    Mr. Renton: This problem, which we deplore greatly, and which the Prison Commissioners are doing their best to overcome, is due to a very large and sharp increase in the prison population over the last two years. As regards the case at Canterbury, the three men who were in one cell at the time when the incident occurred had never been in prison before. All three had been convicted, two of them had been sentenced and one—Furrie, the man concerned— was awaiting sentence after being convicted.
    29. Mr. Haleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department in how many local prisons for male prisoners the system of putting three prisoners in a cell built for one only continues; how many prisoners are affected; and to what extent arrangements have been effectively made so that unconvicted prisoners and first offenders are not confined with more habitual criminals.
    Mr. Renton: On 18th November, 1958, there were 25 local prisons in which prisoners were accommodated three to a cell, the number of prisoners affected being 5,922. Unconvicted prisoners are not confined in a cell with convicted prisoners, and first offenders are not confined with habitual criminals.
    Mr. Hale: Will the Under-Secretary bear in mind the fact that most of the cells are 100 years old, and were built, at the time, for one person each? Will he also bear in mind the fact that many of these prisoners are locked up for 11 consecutive hours. and some for 16 consecutive hours, with no lavatory accommodation, so that for 16 hours at a time some of them have to suffer the nauseating stench of the human excrement of three people living in the cell. Does not he think that the prison system is reaching the stage where it is creating criminals instead of restraining crime?
    Mr. Renton: My right hon. Friend fully accepts that this large number of men sleeping three to a cell creates the most unsatisfactory conditions. I say that without necessarily agreeing with all the details that the hon. Member has given.

    Durham Gaol
    17. Mr. Greyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what percentage of prisoners has earned the maximum remission of sentence at Durham Gaol in the last five years; and how this percentage compares with the figures for the average of prisons of similar type.
    Mr. Renton: I regret that the information is not available.
    Mr. Grey: May I ask the Under- Secretary if he is aware that in answer to a Question last week embodying the same principle, he stated:
    "The rules relating to discipline are the same in all prisons, and I have no reason to suppose that there is any significant difference
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    in their application between Durham and other local prisons."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 4th December, 1958; Vol. 596, c. 160.]
    May I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman how he squares that with a statement made by a learned judge at Durham Quarter Sessions, who was quoted in the Newcastle Journal on 27th November as follows:
    "Judge Cohen said at Durham Quarter Sessions that Durham was a paradise compared with other prisons …Judge Cohen told two Sunderland youths who waited four months in the gaol for trial 'Four months is nothing… You don't know what prison is really like. You were not subjected to the same sort of strict discipline and severe handling as other prisoners.'
    A Seaham youth who had asked to be gaoled, was told by the Judge: 'They are too kind to them in Durham'."
    May the House be assured that these statements are no slur on the governor of the prison, and may we also be assured that the judge in question will be informed that on such matters it is his job to sentence prisoners and not to make criticisms of discipline inside prisons?
    Mr. Renton: As I understand the matter, the learned judge cast no reflection upon the way in which Durham Prison was run. What he was anxious to do was to point out to these young men, who were before him for sentence, that the way in which they would be treated when they were prisoners serving their sentences would not necessarily be quite as happy as the way in which they had been treated as prisoners awaiting trial, because it is a well-known fact that until a prisoner has been sentenced he is given various privileges which he does not have later.

    Dr. Fuchs (Newspaper Interview)
    23. Lieut.-Colonel Cordeauxasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action he contemplates taking, under the relevant prison regulations, against the Daily Express newspaper for having obtained, by means of a misrepresentation to the prison authorities, an interview with Dr. Klaus Fuchs, now serving a sentence of imprisonment in Wakefield Goal.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: There is no power to take any such action under the Prison Act, 1952, or the Prison Rules.
    Lieut.-Colonel Cordeaux: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this

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    incident touches a new low in journalistic practice by the newspaper concerned? As by her behaviour the reporter concerned violated one of the most important ethics of her profession, will my right hon. Friend consider at least referring the matter to the Press Council?
    Mr. Butler: I will consider any suggestion made by my hon. and gallant Friend. What I am anxious to do is to see that such an incident does not arise again. We have taken up this matter with the Prison Commissioners, and I have reason to believe that it will not arise again.

    Dartmoor Prison
    28. Mr. Haleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the average cost per head per week of food supplied to prisoners in Dartmoor Prison, excluding cost of preparing and cooking; and the average weekly cost per head for meat.
    Mr. Renton: The current cost of food at Dartmoor is 12s. 2d. a head a week including meat. The cost may vary with seasonal fluctuations in the price of vegetables and other foods. The cost of fresh meat is 1s. a head a week; in addition the dietary includes 2 oz. of preserved meat, 8 oz. sausage meat, 5 oz. bacon and 1 lb. fish.
    Mr. Hale: Is the Under-Secretary aware that this is a very tough prison and one of the very few where prisoners are constantly engaged on extremely hard work—on forest, farm and elsewhere? Is not this figure appalling and in the nature of a public scandal?
    Mr. Renton: No, Sir. The average weight of fresh meat per prisoner at Dartmoor is 14·7 ounces a week. The prison diet is founded upon advice given
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    to us by medical authorities and by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. It is a varied and, we are advised, nutritionally adequate diet.
    Mr. Shinwell: Would some of those medical authorities like to try it for themselves? Is the hon. Member aware that I have experience of this matter and that they starved me while I was in?
    Mr. Renton: I have myself tasted prison food when visiting prisons at dinner time, and I must say that from that very limited experience I have been agreeably surprised at the diet in those prisons which I have visited. However, in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, we shall certainly ask the Prison Commissioners to keep an eye on the diet at Dartmoor.
    Mr. Hale: Will the hon. Member bear in mind that if one buys 14 ounces of meat a week for 1st. one buys very poor meat indeed, even if it is bought, under what I know are the hon. and learned Member's perfectly good buying arrangements, in bulk. All one will get is coarse, fat meat, which is wholly inadequate. Surely the Minister should look at this matter again. If he will investigate conditions not upon a parade occasion, when the prison authorities know that he is coming—and this is no criticism of the government of the prison, which is as good as it can be in this wretched place — he will really find out what prisoners are eating. The public will be shocked at the figures he has given.
    Dr. Summerskill: In view of the fact that 4,000 calories a day are recommended for manual workers, can the Minister say what the prison diet to which he has referred amounts to in terms of calories?
    Mr. Renton: I cannot translate it into calories without notice.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 15TH DECEMBER—Second Reading of the House Purchase and Housing Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
TUESDAY, 16TH DECEMBER—Report and Third Reading of the Emergency Laws (Repeal) Bill,
Committee and remaining stages of the Adoption Bill; the National Debt Bill; the Manoeuvres Bill; and the Slaughter of Animals Bill, which are consolidation Measures and have been received from another place.
It is hoped to obtain the Second Readings of these Bills at the end of business that night.
Committee stage of the New Towns Money Resolution.
WEDNESDAY, 17TH DECEMBER—A debate will take place on the Unemployment Situation.
THURSDAY, 18TH DECEMBER—It is proposed to meet at 11a.m.
Questions will be taken till 12 noon and the House adjourn at 5 p.m.
Adjournment for the Christmas Recess until Tuesday, 20th January, 1959.
Mr. Gaitskell: Do I understand that the debate on Wednesday will be on the Motion for the Adjournment?
Mr. Butler: So far as I am aware, that is the arrangement. We can settle it through the usual channels.
Mr. Grimond: Do not the Government intend to give a day out of their own time for a debate on Cyprus?
Mr. Butler: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made a statement yesterday which I think the House accepted in the spirit in which it was made. The reasons were conveyed by
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my right hon. Friend, one of which I can now stress, namely, that the Foreign Ministers of Greece and Turkey will be present with our Foreign Secretary when we are discussing the matter at N.A.T.O., and it would probably be better for us not to have a debate here, but to allow these constructive discussions to take place.
Mr. Gaitskell: May I explain that when we asked the Government for a debate on Cyprus they pointed out that the Foreign Secretary would not be present and, in the opinion of the Government, there were other difficulties about such a debate? With some reluctance we then agreed not to press for a debate on Cyprus, provided that we could debate a subject which seemed to us equally important. That is why we are having a debate on the unemployment situation.
Mr. Butler: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the attitude which he has adopted in this matter.
Mr. J. Hynd: I do not think that many hon. Members heard the answer by the Leader of the House to the question by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition about the business on Wednesday. May we be told what is the subject of the debate?
Mr. Butler: As I read out originally, the subject for Wednesday's business is a debate on the unemployment situation. That is at the request of the Opposition and will take place on the Motion for the Adjournment.
Mr. H. Hynd: May I ask the Leader of the House whether his attention has been drawn to a Motion on the Order Paper in my name, and signed by hon. Members on both sides of the House, referring to the question of supplementary pension for railway superannuitants? Can the right hon. Gentleman find time for a discussion of that Motion at an early date?
[That this House, being of opinion that exceptional hardship has resulted to British Railways superannuitants, many of whom are not in receipt of National Insurance benefits, in a period of declining money values, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to bring forward proposals for the alleviation of this hardship.]
Mr. Butler: There will be no chance to discuss it before we adjourn for the Christmas Recess. I have the terms of the Motion before me. It is a subject which the Opposition might choose to debate on a Supply Day.
Mr. W. Yates: Has the Leader of the House seen the Motion in my name on the Order Paper, concerning Malta? Can he tell us when we may expect a statement or the present discussions on Malta, or when we may have a debate as a result of them?
[That this House, having taken note of the promise made in the Gracious Speech, namely, to co-operate with the United Nations and the countries of the Middle East, now calls upon Her Majesty's Government firstly to propose at the United Nations that international status under United Nations guarantee be offered to the Island of Malta, and, secondly, to invite compliance with the previous United Nations resolution for the international status of the Holy City of Jerusalem in order to provide permanent bases for the police and peace forces of the United Nations.]
Mr. Butler: The statement on Malta must depend on the development of negotiations, so no exact time can be given.
Mr. Chetwynd: As there will be trade discrimination between the countries of the Common Market and O.E.E.C. before the House meets again in January of next year, and if it is not possible to have a debate on the subject before the Christmas Recess, may we be assured that a White Paper will be laid?
Mr. Butler: That, again, depends on the way that the discussions turn. I can say that the House will be given information when there is full information available because, clearly, hon. Members on both sides of the House are interested in the latest information.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  TRANSPORT (BORROWING POWERS) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.35 p.m.
  The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  As the House knows, Clause 1 of the Bill deals with an extension of the ordinary borrowing powers of the British Transport Commission, and Clause 2 with an extension of its powers under the Transport (Railway Finances) Act, 1957. Clause 1 extends the borrowing powers of the Commission by a further £600 million. In certain quarters this has been represented as a new sum of money suddenly injected into the economy and as something likely to be inflationary in its nature. Indeed, I think the words, "spending spree" were used about it.
  The House will know, but perhaps I may put it on the record again, that this additional £600 million represents part of a sum which, in effect, was pledged in 1954, when the Government said that they would back the original modernisation plan. This is, therefore, the second instalment of the money which was promised at that time. I shall deal more fully with the matter later, but this is no sudden new injection into the economy, it is part of the original plan, not any kind of "spending spree."
  All of us in this House who know the railways intimately—someof us have worked on them or for them for many years—will realise that it is not only a Bill that we are discussing. It is the future of what is still the largest single employer of labour in the country. We are debating men's jobs, their careers and their futures, as well as the bare bones of the Bill. I hope that I may approach the subject in that sense, as I am sure will other hon. Members.
  As a background to the Bill we are discussing the extension of borrowing powers and the right of the Minister to advance further sums under the Transport (Railway Finances) Act. How the greatest engineering triumph of the Victorian age will streamline itself to fit the age of the motor car and the atom is, in some ways, a fascinating study. I am sure that no one will

  515
  disagree that that is the crux of the problem facing us.
  When one compares the older type of railway truck with the modern commercial vehicle commonly seen on the roads, one can appreciate the difficulties facing the Commission and the measure of progress which it has to make. Again, I do not think that hon. Members would deny that any industrial country must have some kind of railway system; obviously, therefore, it had better be a modern and an efficient system. We may differ over the means of achieving that, but I am sure no one would deny that we must have a modern and up-to-date railway system.
  When dealing with the railways I shall also have something to say about roads because of their repercussion on the railways, and I am also mindful of the other responsibilities of the Ministry, for example, those connected with coastal shipping. I am sure that it is understood that these sums, which the House is being asked to provide for the Commission, are not a means of allowing the Commission to undercut its competitors but rather a means to bring it up-to-date so that it can be modern enough to provide proper services.
  One other thing affects the Bill and perhaps the position of the Minister and of the Commission. One of my predecessors was run over by a train when displaying too close an interest in the railway system. That should be an awful warning to his successor. I think that it was a Mr. Huskisson. I want to make one thing plain. We will no doubt differ on methods, but I say quite plainly, as the Minister responsible, that I want, as the Government want, this great attempt at modernisation and the streamlining our railway system to succeed, both for the sake of the men who work for it and for the sake of the country. That is the wish of the Commission and of everyone in it.
  In a notable speech which the Chairman of the Commission, Sir Brian Robertson, made last week he said what I think were heartening words. They were:
  "In spite of our present difficulties, and they have been much publicised, I am quite certain and so are my colleagues that the investment that the nation is making in British Railways will in the end pay a handsome dividend. It is my job to see that this statement
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  is translated into fact and with my colleagues we intend to see that we do succeed."
  That is a fair summing up of the position of the Commission. Both the Government and the Commission are in partnership in this task of making a success of this very great venture.
  Therefore, it is my duty today to set out as clearly as I can—and there is a lot to say—the views of the Government and of the Commission on the future of the industry and on its present position. I do not think that the House could consider the Bill otherwise against a realistic background. The hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) and the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) know that I hold my political views as passionately as they do theirs. I will try to deal shortly with the past.
  The railways were not given a large share of the national investment in the years following the war. The House debated nationalisation in those years when perhaps, on the whole, it should have been debating modernisation. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I do not question the sincerity of the idea of nationalisation and it is not my purpose now to argue the case; but it is my duty to say that those years, from the point of view of modernising the railways, were utterly and completely wasted. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It now makes the task of catching up with modern forms of transport ever more difficult. That is not an argument against nationalisation; it is a statement of fact.
  The Government's job in 1951 was to free the railways from some out-dated restrictions and to fit them for a more competitive world and bring them up-to-date. That is why we started the modernisation plan. Perhaps it is worth mentioning that "Modernisation of the Railways," published by the Commission, December, 1954, says, in one of its concluding pages:
  "The technical re-equipment of the railways is long overdue… So far British Railways have not been given a share of post-war capital investment comparable with that allocated to railways in many other countries."
  Now there is an opportunity to put this right. That is what the Government are trying to do by providing funds for this great modernisation plan to go forward. The Bill provides the second instalment of this fund. In the meantime it is,

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  perhaps, an interesting comment on the motor age that in 1951 there were 4·3 million motor vehicles on the roads and that in 1958 the figure had risen to 7·6 million. That is a measure of the competition which the railways have to face, and whatever anybody does about it that competition has to be faced.
  In 1956, it seemed right that the position should be looked at again and that the Commission should come forward with a prospectus to show how it would act in the changed circumstances. It will be familiar to the House that this was the basis of the 1956 White Paper, Cmd. 9880, and I will quote only two very short sentences because they are both important to our discussion. These are the words:
  "In the long run the immediate gain of revenue "—
  that was, from fares and freight charges increases—
  "would probably be purchased at the expense of a substantial contraction in the traffics offered to the Commission."
  The White Paper goes on to say that large increases in fares or charges might damage the Commission's business, certainly temporarily and possibly permanently. That was the view in 1956. It said:
  "The ultimate revenue prospects... will depend mainly upon modernisation."
  There has always been the difficulty of modernising quickly enough without increasing charges, which would gradually drive business away from the railways for good.
  I would refer those critics who suggest that the Government have not backed this plan properly to the fact that the original capital investment in railways under the plan was £135 million in 1958 and £140 million in 1959. What has now been agreed for 1958 is £145 million; for 1959, it will be £178 million. The Commission is getting from the Government all that it can invest in the railways this year and next year. Any suggestion that the Government have not backed this plan up to the hilt is not founded upon fact.
  Mr. H. Hynd: These are very interesting figures. Can the right hon. Gentleman project them a year forward, to enable the Commission to place contracts?
  Mr. Watkinson: The Commission has an idea what the future figure is. It is at least sure of getting its money in 1959, in 1960 and possibly after that, and so it has a reasonable certainty.
  Mr. Ernest Popplewell Mr. Ernest Popplewell (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West) rose—
  Mr. Watkinson: I have an enormous amount to say and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will let me get on.
  The Commission has all the investment money that it can usefully employ in obtaining its badly needed revenues. There is no doubt that the Government have backed the plan to the hilt. Because of the lateness with which the plan started, this is a difficult race to run. We have to make good the neglect of the earlier years.
  The number of C licences issued in 1947 was 250,000 while in 1958 the number was well over 1 million. The number is still increasing. I would be very glad if the Opposition spokesman in the debate would tell us what the Opposition intend to do about C licences. Do they intend to limit them? That shows two things. It shows that the railways face the handicap of a late start with modernisation and face increasing competition on the roads, which, in any free economy, should be encouraged and certainly allowed to go on.
  What of the present position? On the passenger side, the railways have lived up to their promise and their prospectus. While I shall give only a few examples, it is fair to say that passenger receipts, despite the competition I have mentioned, are more than holding their own. I shall give one or two individual examples to show where modern passenger equipment is paying off. On the Bradford—Leeds— Harrogate service annual receipts have increased from £23,000 under steam operation to no less than £116,000 under diesel multiple unit operation. The Newcastle—Middlesbrough service turned a deficit in movement costs of £10,000— in round figures—in 1955 to a surplus of £137,000 in 1958. The first inter-city diesel service, from Edinburgh to Glasgow, carried 700,000 extra passengers in the first year of operation.
  The House is being asked to advance large sums of money on a prospectus by the Commission that modernisation will pay off. On the passenger side, it is practising what it promised; it has

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  been performed and come to pass. It is on the freight side that the position is so different and, quite frankly, so very difficult. We all know that receipts have been sagging heavily on this side throughout the year. For the first 44 weeks of this year merchandise traffic was 14 per cent. below last year and 10 per cent. down on 1956, which is a more comparable year, mainly in the heavy traffics —coal and steel, in particular. None the less, the Commission is pressing on with modernisation here, but it is inevitably much slower. They are bigger projects and take longer to come to fruition.
  The Green Arrow Scheme and the Export Express Scheme are both doing well. By the end of the year fitted freight trains will be increased to over 35 per cent. of the whole and the number of wagons fitted with continuous brakes will have risen to about 270,000. There will be 44,000 containers suitable for door to door carriage in use, 150 older marshalling yards will be closed, and 27 new yards will be constructed under the Commission's immediate plans. I give those examples only to show that on the freight side modernisation is being pressed forward, but it takes longer to do and, as I have shown, in the meantime competition with the roads goes on.
  To sum up that part of the position, on the passenger side the Commission has done what it promised to do. On the freight side it has fallen behind, but for reasons I shall deal with in a little more detail in a moment. There are those who say, for example, that the great motor roads programme the Government are pushing forward must be detrimental to the railways' future. I do not take that view. I should like to say a word or two about it, because I think that it is the cause of some alarm to many railwaymen and others who look anxiously to the future of the railways. Can the railways stand the competition of new vehicles on fast roads, and so on?
  There was an interesting leader in The Times on 1st December. It quoted a speech by Sir Reginald Wilson, which I hope hon. Members who are interested will read, if they have not already done so. The speech was to the National Conference of the British Institute of Management and was on the technical
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  modernisation of British Railways. The Times said:
  "Given reasonable conditions, two men in the country can move in one train as much as 25,000 ton-miles of heavy freight every hour. 'No other technique known to us can touch such figures of output for land transport'."
  If we couple with that the fact that each working day British Railways have to move 4 million passengers and 1 million tons of freight I think that that is proof of what I have said. We must have an efficient railway system. Competition from the roads is complementary and is part of the system and it is not, in any case, over-providing transport for our densely industrialised country.
  The railways take some pride in the fact that during the recent foggy weeks they have conveyed 2,100 passengers who had hoped to travel by air. They went by rail because the railways were running and those airlines were not. Railways, of course, provide an essential service. We cannot do without them. To do without them would be beyond the capacity of any road system which any Minister of Transport could envisage being built.
  The Bill tries to give the Commission the help it needs to make up the leeway of past years and in facing the competition which the Government think should not be curbed but encouraged because it is part of the free enterprise, expanding, regime of our country. None the less. towards the middle of this year it was obvious that the freight position was looking alarming. Therefore, the Chairman of the Commission and I had an interchange of talks. It was the Chairman's wish, as it was mine, that the very earliest moment should be taken to inform the House and the country of the position.
  As the House knows, the Chairman wrote a letter to me, to which I replied, in which he set out clearly the freight position in the light of the setback in coal and steel traffics in particular. That was published as a White Paper, Cmd. 585. The Chairman set out the position there fully and frankly. At that time he had no need to do so because he will not know what the final figure is until the end of the year, but I am sure that it was right to bring it forward at the earliest possible moment.

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  In addition, I think that it would be helpful to the House and to the Commission to make clear that the position set out in the White Paper was due to a drop in traffics and not, perhaps, to a disastrous loss through competition. Therefore, I asked the auditors, who are independent and responsible to me, to check those facts. They visited the regions and advised me in their report that the drop in these traffics, the heavy freight traffics, in the second part of the period, was much more severe than that in other traffics, that is, relating to coal, steel, and so on, and added:
  "We are of opinion that, in the absence of unforeseen adverse factors in the last two months of the year, the undertakings will have been substantially fulfilled by the end of the year 1958."
  Therefore, I do not think that it is a failure of the Commission to hold its fair share of the traffic.
  I do not know whether the House knows that the Commission recently signed an agreement with the Electricity Generating Board, which means that about 3 million to 4 million tons of coal traffic will be regained by the railways in the first six to twelve months and more in succeeding years. There is a useful attempt to get coal traffic from the road on to the rail, as I think it should be. Coal output was expected to reach 228 million tons in 1960 and 240 million tons in 1965. In fact, in 1959, demand will probably be about 200 million tons. That is the measure of the stocks held. At present, railway carrying of coal is down by no less than 500,000 tons a week. That is a situation which, while it may be temporary, is none the less disastrous for the Commission's finances.
  The steel industry, too, due almost entirely to destocking, is affecting the railways at least as much as was set out in the Chairman's letter to me. I understand that the production of crude steel in 1958 will probably be about 10 per cent, lower than in 1957, and, therefore, of course, rail freights will be affected by that position. So it might be said that this sudden storm, as I think the Chairman of the Commission called it in his letter to me, was not of the Commission's making. None the less, in view of the figures I have given for road transport, and of the general development of the economy into new patterns and new ways,
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  it was quite obvious that the Government could not let matters rest as they stand.
  I want to make it plain that it is no criticism of Sir Brian Robertson and his colleagues, or, indeed, any falsification of the 1956 prospectus, to say that, in the circumstances, it is necessary to look at the modernisation plan and all its financial implications again, to try now to project it into the future, and to see whether what is being done is right, and whether it is on the right front and of the right degree, and so on. Indeed, I would not have felt that I could bring the Bill forward to the House and seek its acceptance without looking again at the modernisation plan in the conditions of the next few years.
  At my request, the Commission has already initiated a full, detailed and urgent review of the whole modernisation plan. It will take account of both present and likely changes in traffic, it will try to re-assess the level of activity in the coal industry, in particular, because of the development of oil and because of the high price of coal, which is making oil so much more competitive, and future developments in atomic power. These and a great many other matters could not, in all fairness to the Commission, have been foreseen in 1956, and, therefore, the Commission is in agreement with the Government's requirement that this inquiry should be thoroughgoing and detailed. The Commission will have any help which the Government can give.
  I understand that the Commission is already having talks with the National Coal Board and the Iron and Steel Board to assess future levels of traffic there. What I think is very important is that it will be having detailed discussions with bodies which represent its customers—the Federation of British Industries, the Association of Chambers of Commerce and the National Union of Manufacturers— and I should like to express our gratitude to these bodies and others, as I know Sir Brian Robertson would, for the great interest that they are taking in this reassessment of the Commission's commercial future.
  It is most important that the customer should be able to put forward at this stage his views on whether he thinks the modernisation plan is going in the right

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  direction, whether it is going fast enough and whether or not what is provided is right or wrong.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: Since this inquiry is being undertaken at the Government's request, will the report be presented to the House?
  Mr. Watkinson: Yes; but perhaps I may come to that point later. I will certainly answer the hon. Gentleman's question.
  This has all been put in hand, and I will give the House the terms of reference, which will set out clearly what is to be done. The review will take several months, and I shall try to lay its findings before the House by the early spring. It will be a new look at the whole position and a complete revision and reshaping of the 1956 prospectus.
  Mr. Popplewell: This is an extremely important statement. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Commission will in any way slow up other programmes which are now in hand, such as marshalling yards, coupling of trains, and the questions of dieselisation and electrification?
  Mr. Watkinson: I shall come to that in a moment. I am now dealing with the immediate position, but it will mean the very reverse.
  Perhaps I may just deal with the terms of reference of the inquiry. They are three in number. The first is an account of the achievements under the modernisation plan to the end of 1958, and of the benefits obtained. The second is a detailed re-examination of the future course of the modernisation plan, with particular reference to the next five years, related to the future size of the railway system that will be needed in view of current economic developments and future expected requirements. The third is a reappraisal of the economics of modernisation in the light of the second term of reference, and the steps necessary to achieve the earliest possible break-even date based on an up-to-date assessment of future traffics, costs and economics.
  These are the terms of reference of the inquiry which is now in hand. The House will realise that this inquiry will re-assess the Commission's future, and will deal
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  both with modernisation and the Commission's deficit position. I must make it plain that at present both the Commission and the Government have not departed from the target, set in the White Paper, of achieving the break-even by 1961–62. I would also draw attention to a sentence in my letter to Sir Brian Robertson:
  "The Government cannot envisage an indefinite extension of the time when the Commission will break even."
  I must go further and say that this means that the Government will have to receive a very complete economic justification for any change in the break-even date at all. The Commission appreciates this position, and also clearly realises— and this is the answer to the hon. Gentleman's intervention—that the work must go on without waiting for this reappraisal, and that much has now to be done.
  The Commission is, therefore, going on, with the Government's full support, on two lines of attack: first, more modernisation, on a narrower front, but still more modernisation; and, secondly, more savings on a much broader front. Perhaps I may say a little about the details of this. Let me give one example. As regards main line electrification, the Commission proposes for the moment to concentrate its resources on the London, Midland and Scottish line to Manchester and Liverpool, and hope to accelerate its completion by several years to get a quicker return on the capital investment.
  Secondly, there will be an acceleration of the introduction of diesel locomotives, to eliminate the use of steam on an area basis as quickly as possible. This will apply particularly on the railway routes north of Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Perhaps I may say again in relation to the North that the Government have already authorised an increased capital expenditure in 1959 to speed up the purchase of main line diesel locomotives, and that by 1961 nearly 1,100 of these will be in service. I could give a great many other examples.
  Mr. Thomas Steele: The right hon. Gentleman said that the Commission was to concentrate on main line electrification. That does not mean that railway electrification already in progress in other places will be stopped?
  Mr. Watkinson: No; I am talking of the future at the moment.
  Mr. Popplewell: The Minister says that, first, the Commission is to concentrate on the London—Manchester electrification scheme, but, of course, there is the King's Cross—East Coast route scheme, on which a lot of work has been done. Will there be any danger that work now going on will not be proceeded with?
  Mr. Watkinson: I will ask my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to deal with that point, because I have still quite a lot to say to the House.
  What I was doing now was giving an example of what the Commission means by more modernisation. It means modernisation more quickly to get a return more quickly; and I could go on to give a great many more examples. There will be some scrapping of obsolete wagons and many more multiple-unit diesel trains. They will be doubled from 2,300 to 4,600 by the end of 1961. That is the immediate task—more modernisation on a narrower front, but, particularly, on things which will pay off reasonably quickly.
  The House will, I think rightly, be rather more concerned with the financial results of what is being done. It will be remembered that in the current year the Commission promised to make savings of about £14 million to meet its estimated fall in traffics, which fall, of course, has been exceeded, but it promised to make £14 million of savings. Associated with the wages settlement of earlier this year, the Commission promised to obtain an additional £6 million in a full year. It was said that the Commission cannot get all this in the current year, but it made a promise of a further £6 million, which would begin to be fully implemented during this year.
  I thought it fair to the Commission, and of interest to the House, again to ask the auditors to see whether those undertakings were fulfilled. There were some of us—not myself, but newspapers and other people—who felt that they might not be achieved. I was always certain that the Commission would honour its undertakings and I am very glad to see that the auditors whom I appointed and asked to examine this matter have now reported that
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  "We are of opinion that, in the absence of unforeseen adverse factors in the last two months of the year—"
  which, of course, have not yet run out—
  "the undertakings will have been substantially fulfilled by the end of the year 1958."
  It is a great job which is being done by the Commission in carrying out its undertakings for this year to make these difficult and painful economies. With this in mind, I have discussed with Sir Brian Robertson the target of additional savings which the Commission must set for 1959. I have asked him to raise this from the £20 million which he mentioned in his letter of 29th September to a target of at least £30 million in a full year. I know that it will be very difficult, but I am confident that it is possible of achievement.
  Mr. Popplewell: How?
  Mr. Watkinson: I will give some examples if the hon. Member wants me to go on for a very long time. I will certainly give one or two.
  For instance, the introduction of diesel traction in the Western Region alone can save £1 million in a full year. By 1961, when the replacement of steam by diesel shunters will be completed, the saving will be about £3 million a year. The reduction in the wagon fleet by 1960 will save £2 million to £3 million a year. By 1960, the London Midland freight modernisation and rationalisation scheme will save about £1½ million a year. All these measures will make part of the savings in 1959.
  Mr. Popplewell: Are those—
  Mr. Watkinson: Perhaps I may be allowed to go on. I have a lot more to say.
  There is no intention—I would like the hon. Member to listen to these words; I think he would be interested— on the part of either the Government or the Commission at this time to undertake any indiscriminate slashing of either the labour force or of work in hand— obviously not. The House should, however, know that in the last twelve months, under the proper agreements between the Commission and the unions concerning redundancy, it has been possible to reduce the labour force by 20,000 men. That, again, is a great task well and necessarily performed. I do not think

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  that any of us in the House would disagree—nor, I think, would the union leaders disagree—that if we are to have a prosperous railway system it will, and must, employ fewer men, but, I hope, more skilled and thus better paid men. That is the ambition for us and for the railways.
  Mr. David Jones: If, as the right hon. Gentleman says, there is to be a saving in manpower, will the Commission save at the expense of putting extensive orders out to private works while there are over 1,000 shopmen who have been dismissed in recent months?
  Mr. Watkinson: That has nothing to do with my present argument. I am explaining the broad general principles. What I have said is that although there has been this large drop of 20,000 men in the last twelve months it has been carried out properly under the proper agreements between the Commission and the unions.
  To sum up this part of my remarks, I am seeking the authority of the House for the Bill on two clear understandings: first, that early in the spring of 1959, we shall have a complete reassessment of modernisation; secondly, that the Commission is forthwith putting in hand measures such as will contain the 1959 deficit within reasonable proportions, which will be in line with the original plan presented to the Government in 1956. That is to be done as I have said: more modernisation more quickly, more savings more quickly. There is no idea of asking for any kind of blank cheque. I know that the Commission accepts these necessary disciplines as the discipline which falls on any industry which happens to be in the hands of its bankers, and that is the position of the Commission with the Government as its bankers.
  I need only draw attention, in passing, to the third paragraph of the Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill, which makes it plain that I have quite adequate powers to keep a check on the expenditure of this money and advance it as I think fit. That is clearly set out in the third paragraph of the Explanatory Memorandum.
  I read an interesting letter in the Manchester Guardian of 25th November by
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  the hon. Member for Enfield, East. He concluded it on what, I thought, was a very gloomy note, because he concluded by saying, in effect, that there was no hope now but a large annual subsidy for the railways. The Commission rejects that concept as firmly as the Government reject it. There is no idea of any kind of subsidy. If we accept that, all discipline is lost and all hope for the future of the railways is lost, too.
  If the railways become a subsidised creature of the Government, then, as the Economist said the other day, they will have a Minister round their neck for ever and a day. That would be a sad fate for any industry. Therefore, the Commission and the Government are determined that these necessary disciplines are a challenge to get on more quickly and are not in any way something about which to take a depressing view.
  I know that some Members of the Opposition would like the Government to produce a subsidy, perhaps, in the knowledge that their method of running the railways would always demand one.
  Mr. D. Jones: Has the right hon. Gentleman any evidence that there is a Minister around the farmers' necks?
  Mr. Watkinson: I would not know.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: I have no doubt that the Minister has seen the article in The Times today. Has he anything to say about its concluding paragraph:
  "If the Government want to see the deficits under control they must allow the B.T.C. to be in control—to carry full responsibility and, within the framework of existing legislation, to choose its policies freely."
  The Government have several times interfered in what the Commission wanted to do.
  Mr. Watkinson: Hon. Members opposite are so impatient that they keep anticipating my speech, thus making it longer. The final points with which I wish to deal are these issues of fares and charges and the future on that side.
  Another resource open to the Commission as a means of putting its finances into balance is certainly to conduct its affairs on a sound, commercial basis. Hon. Members opposite always bring forward these charges of interference. All I would say is that they should read again the 1956 White Paper, which I have read

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  out, which shows clearly, in the Commission's own words, that it recognises that heavy increases in fares and charges will only drive away more customers from the railways. What would be the sense of doing that?
  It is, however, a corollary of requiring the Commission to put its affairs in order that it should be able to raise its charges whenever it thinks it fair and expedient to do so. As the House knows, due to the action of a Conservative Government concerning the freight side and commercial charging, the Commission today has entire freedom to charge as it thinks fit, subject, of course, to getting the necessary powers from the Transport Tribunal. It is, I think, using those powers to the best effect, subject to the conditions of the market.
  At present, the Commission has an application before the Transport Tribunal, which, I think, will be heard next week, dealing with passenger fares. I do not want to anticipate what will be discussed, but the House should, perhaps, know something of the Commission's intentions. The application is one for increased headroom. The purpose is, as the Chairman has said to me during these recent months, to allow the Commission to have a more flexible fares policy. For example, some luxury trains, like the new "Master Cutler", which is such a great success, might well justify a higher than standard fare. The Commission is thinking of an interesting experiment on branch lines to see whether higher fares might keep some branch lines open, if the customers will pay for them.
  There is no doubt that there still remain to be dealt with anomalies and substandard rates. As for freight, if the Tribunal gives the Commission the powers it seeks it wants to use them in such a way as to sweep away anomalies, and, naturally, to get more revenue where it properly can. It is always very interesting for me to note that almost every Socialist-controlled local authority in London always opposes applications for fares increases before the Transport Tribunal and, no doubt, will do so again next week, but for those who have anxieties about these matters—and they are common, I think, to both sides of the House—the Chairman has authorised me to say that the increases that the Commission will make must be governed by
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  market considerations. I understand that it has no intention of making effective any overall increases either in season or ordinary fares within the next six months.
  I should like to mention another development in fares. As the House knows, I have set up this new London Travel Committee. I am very grateful to Mr. Alex Samuels and his colleagues for having undertaken this very heavy task. They have their first meeting today, and have much work to do. One of the things I hope they will do is to find out whether we can spread peak-hour travel, and encourage the more efficient use of public transport by a fares differential, or fares discrimination, between peak and off-peak hours.
  The Commission is also studying that problem, and it knows that it is my very strong wish that we should try to make things more comfortable for those who have to travel to and from their work in London by offering some economic inducement to travel off-peak. That will be difficult, but it cannot be done at all unless the Commission gets increased headroom from the Tribunal. For obvious reasons, there does not seem to be any sign of any flat, general increase in fares, but I hope that we shall be able to find some new and diverse ways of helping the Commission and, perhaps, helping peak-hour travel, too.
  To sum up, I do not approach this problem—nor does the Commission, as its own words testify—in a defeatist way. I think that the disciplines that I am forced, if I am to do my duty, to impose upon the Commission will be a spur to greater effort and a method of achieving more rewarding results. I do not think that anybody would expect that the second half of the twentieth century would not throw up new technical problems and new ways of doing things. Therefore, the railways will have to rethink from year to year—as have other great industries.
  It is a good thing, and a healthy thing, and not, as has been suggested, in any way an attempt to put a brake on, or destroy, the great work that has been done. What, for the sake of the railway-men and of the country, we are seeking is to do the job more expeditiously and more efficiently, and to spend the country's money to the best advantage.

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  That is why it is necessary to look at the position again, to take the powers that I have to control advances, and to subject the Commission to a reasonable degree of financial discipline.
  I want to say to the railway men that the Commission is being given the right tools for the job. I believe that it has a much more efficient structure. The area boards, with their link with the Commission through their chairmen, are doing a first-rate job— —
  Mr. G. Lindgren: What they are doing is spending many thousands of pounds on reorganisation.
  Mr. Watkinson: They are getting very much nearer to their customers, and as for the decentralisation now going on within the regions themselves, if the hon. Gentleman likes to take the slightest trouble to talk to any of the larger users of the railways in the regions they will tell him how much they appreciate the new commercial management being set up within the regions, which is giving, for the first time, the kind of personal service that most people thought a nationalised industry could never give at all.
  We still have many ideas for the future of the railways, and I am sure that we shall hear of some more from my hon. Friends today. We think that this process of decentralisation should go on. If, in that process, the trains are occasionally to be of different colours, if old loyalties are to be revived and closer contacts achieved, I see nothing wrong in that. Indeed. I see in it—[HON. MEMBERS: "Jobs for the boys."]—a brighter future for the railways on the management side.
  If we are to put forward a fair comparison this afternoon, we should just look at what is happening to other railways. The French railways, the German railways—as, I think, some hon. Members know who have only recently been to Germany—are running into very heavy deficits this year. In addition, hon. Members will no doubt have read the articles in The Times describing the difficulties of the American railways. But, at any rate, as the general American economy has turned upwards again so have the fortunes of the American railways. I think that that is what will happen with the Commission, and that is why the
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  Government told the Commission that they regarded this check to its progress as temporary. Had that check not occurred, the Commission would have been on target with what is said it would do.
  In this debate, each side of the House must take a different view, but I hope that I will carry the House with me when I say this of Sir Brian Robertson. I am very grateful to him. To be the chairman of a nationalised industry is a thankless task. He gets greatly knocked about, both by Members of this House and people in the country. He has to suffer Ministers of one kind and another, but I think that he and his colleagues do the job supremely well. I would. therefore, like to end with a word to him and to the railwaymen, for whom we all have a very soft spot in our hearts.
  The railways are going through a difficult time—we all accept that—and it is always painful successfully to reshape a great industry to face new conditions. The Government have given the modernisation scheme their full backing, and will continue to do so. The country, although it sometimes criticises the railways, still has a very soft spot for them, because it knows, as the House knows, that we cannot have an efficient economy without an efficient railway system.
  That is why I am sure that I speak for the whole House—whatever may be our political differences—in saying that we wish Sir Brian Robertson, his colleagues and every railwayman every success in their great task of trying to fit the railways to serve the country's needs in the different conditions of the second half of the twentieth century. I am sure that we believe that it is a job worth doing, one that those in the industry can be proud to do, and one that I believe they will carry through to great success.
  4.28 p.m.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The Minister of Transport has made a long speech—of which we make no complaint —filled with a great deal of interesting detail, and some important policy statements. With the non-political and some other parts of that speech, most hon. Members will not find anything with which to disagree, but many of the facts he presented were interpreted in rather a peculiar way, as was obvious from the reactions of my hon. Friends. There are

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  also some very important gaps in his speech which I hope now to be able to fill.
  The most important statement in the speech was the announcement of the appointment of a new committee to inquire into the future of the modernisation of British Railways—
  Mr. Watkinson: I must point out that this is something to be done by the Commission itself. It is not to be an outside committee of inquiry.
  Mr. Davies: No, I appreciate that, and I thank the Minister for clarifying it. Nevertheless, it is something that has been instigated by the Minister. It is quite clear that a great number of problems confront the railways in all countries, one of the chief of which is this great growth in private transport, and it is necessary to reassess the extent to which capital investment is justified, and in which direction it shall flow. One has one reservation over these continuing inquiries, and that is whether there is not too great a burden put on the Commission, instigated from outside, which imposes upon it a great deal of labour and work which results in distraction from the job of carrying on and running the railways.
  The Minister referred in his speech to two investigations made by his auditors, and each one of these must have involved a great deal of work within the Commission, as he stated that his auditors had visited the Commission's offices, travelled round the regions and so on—and that takes people away from their work. It has to be shown that this is really necessary and that the results from it are fully justified. Further, one has the reservation that the more Ministerial interference there is in this way the more difficult it is for those in the industry to act independently and to have that sense of responsibility which gives them confidence in carrying on the job.
  one of the main gaps in the speech of the Minister was that he revealed no consciousness whatsoever that the Government might share the responsibility, or even be largely to blame, for the position in which the Commission finds itself today. I have long ceased to expect the Minister to come here and admit that he has been wrong. I no longer expect him to confess that he shares the guilt for the financial difficulties of the Commission. I would, however, suggest today
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  that not only are the Government to blame because of their economic policy, with which I shall deal in a few minutes, but they are also to blame for presenting to this House in the past a picture which, in the event, has not turned out in the way in which the Minister presented it. For the optimism which he has displayed there is no excuse whatsoever. From this side of the House we have challenged his optimistic statements right from the outset.
  When the original Transport (Railways Finances) Bill was introduced, on Second Reading, in Committee and on Third Reading we questioned whether the sums being voted would prove sufficient. In the event, they have not. More recently, only five months ago, we debated in this House the Annual Report and Accounts of the British Transport Commission, and then it was quite clear that already, due to the credit squeeze and the falling traffics, it was quite impossible for the estimates in the White Paper to be fulfilled and that the Commission would have to come to the Government and ask for further financing.
  Already, within the first two years in which deficit financing took place, nearly half of the fund of £250 million originally voted had been drawn upon. It was voted for seven years, but in two years over half was used and there remains only £132 million for the following five years. We on this side of the House pointed out to the Minister that the deficit of the Commission for the current year would be very much greater than that for the previous year, and we pressed him to inform us what action he was proposing to take. At that time, however, he denied that any action was necessary, although, of course, consultations were already taking place with the Commission. It was a mere two months after the debate that the Commission's Chairman reported to him that the deficit would be £85 million.
  I do not believe that the Minister could have been so ill-informed that, in our July debate, he was not aware that it would be necessary for the Government to come to the further assistance of the Commission. Yet the Minister repeated what he had said so often since the credit squeeze in 1957. He repeated in the debate on 17th July, 1958:
  "…the Government have decided—it is well known and I need not labour it—that they are

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  not going to increase the size of advances to the Commission which have been and are being given under the Transport (Railway Finances) Act."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th July, 1958; Vol. 591, c. 1451.]
  The Minister must have known then that there was no alternative but to increase the amount that the Commission would have to borrow during subsequent years in order to meet its deficit.
  When we pressed the Minister from this side of the House as to how the Commission was to be financed when the £250 million was exhausted, as we said it would be, next year and it will be next year—he had no answer to give. Either the Minister was bluffing himself or bluffing the House. It may be that one can be more generous and conclude that he has a blind spot about finance. In any case, the Act has not fulfilled his expectations.
  I remember that, during the Committee stage, the Minister said that the Bill was
  "…a kind of carrot and stick method. That is exactly what it should be and is what the Government intended it should be."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B, 18th December, 1956; c. 36.]
  Presumably the Minister was then holding the carrot to the Commission and driving it along to solvency in 1962. Apparently the donkey did not know the rules of the game, because it has eaten the carrot and is now using the stick, or at any rate driving the Minister to eat his words. The Bill has not fulfilled the Minister's confident expectations.
  There can be no more convincing evidence that the Government are to blame for the difficult financial position in which the Commission now finds itself than the Chairman's Report to the Minister which is published in this White Paper. The deterioration in the Commission's affairs is a direct result of the Government's policy of economic stagnation. It is proved, beyond any possibility of contradiction, that the fall in production—and this the Minister himself confirmed—particularly that of iron, coal and steel, has resulted in a fall in freight traffics which has put the Commission into this very difficult situation.
  The Chairman summed it up in paragraph 10 of his Report when he said:
  "The severe and unpredicted fall in the level of production by the heavy industries is thus the crux of the Commission's revenue problem at this time."
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  In the conclusion which he drew in his Report, he repeats this by saying:
  "The finances of the British Railways have been struck a violent, unexpected blow by the sharp setback in the output and traffics of coal steel and other basic industries."
  No further proof is needed than that that the Government must take the blame for the further deterioration in the position of the Commission. There just is not the traffic to enable it to pay its way or even to fulfil the estimates of the White Paper and, as we know, the deficit will be £85 million instead of the original £50 million or £55 million estimated in the White Paper.
  The Government were already responsible for the deterioration in the Commission's position since 1953 owing to the transport policy which they had pursued and owing to the interference by the Government with the free commercial operations of the Commission. It is interesting to see that The Times referred to that today, as was pointed out by an hon. Friend behind me. It is this final blow which has made the situation so much worse.
  The Minister revealed no change of attitude whatever today. He is still unduly optimistic. I regret that I find myself not sharing that optimism. Unfortunately, the position has continued to deteriorate since the Report of the Chairman was made to the Minister. Freights are continuing at a low level, and are down for the first 44 weeks of this year by about £24 million. This week, we have the unemployment figures published showing that they are now well over the half million mark. Today, it is announced that last month steel production was down to 18 per cent. compared with, I think, an average of 16 per cent. during the third quarter of the year. If the economic situation continues to deteriorate, so will the financial position of British Railways. In fact, the deficit figures are really reaching heights which in some ways, it is difficult to take in.
  Mr. Douglas Glover: I am sure the hon. Gentleman does not wish to mislead the House or the country, but he said that steel production was down to 18 per cent. He means "down by 18 per cent."
  Mr. Davies: Yes, I apologise. Certainly, I should have said that it is down 18 per cent. compared with a year ago.

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  Let us look at the present position as regards the deficit and deficit borrowing. It is certain—I do not think that even the Minister will deny it—that the £400 million which the Commission will now be authorised to borrow up to 1962 to finance its deficit will be borrowed in full. That £400 million is certain to be drawn upon, and, I think, drawn upon some time before we reach 1962. It still may not prove adequate, although we share the Minister's hope that it will. Interest on that accumulates at 5 per cent. That means that by 1962 the £400 million borrowed will be somewhere near £500 million. To that, of course, has to be added the deficit of £70 million which was there the year before this deficit borrowing came in.
  Mr. Norman Cole: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but surely his mathematics are not correct. The whole £400 million will not be on percentage interest for five years; it is only a matter of so much every year.
  Mr. Davies: If the hon. Gentleman will work it out, as I did, taking each year as the deficit accumulates, he will find that it is not far short of £100 million. The hon. Gentleman can get down to pen and paper while I am speaking.
  This means that by 1962 the Commission will have a liability of about £600 million, which has arisen purely from the failure to pay its way and the accumulation of the deficit and interest thereon, the other £100 million coming from the deferment of interest on the capital borrowed for modernisation. It is bad enough to have this millstone around its neck, this £600 million unproductive indebtedness, but on top of that there will be a further charge on the capital central charges; in other words, interest has to be paid on that £600 million. This will be another £30 million per annum on top of the £60 million central charges which the Commission already has to meet.
  Can anyone accuse us of being unrealistic if we sugggest that it would be extremely difficult for the Commission, in 1962, not only to meet this £60 million of central charges which now exist but half as much again, making some £90 million of central charges which must be earned out of surplus operating revenue? As I say, the outlook is not at all a happy one.
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  It will be impossible for the Commission to repay this loan which is now being paid to it to meet this deficit. However efficient the Commission is, however well administered, however many economies are effected, it is being set an impossible task. I suggest, therefore, that it would be more politically honest for the Minister and financially more prudent if he admitted that deficit financing on this scale is neither more nor less than a disguised subsidy. I am convinced that it will prove to be such in the end and that it will never be possible for the Commission to repay.
  In the circumstances, we must face the situation and see what can be done to ensure that the Commission breaks even in 1962, or attempts to reach that target. I share the Minister's praise of the Commission which he expressed this afternoon. I think that the Commission is showing great courage in having so much confidence in itself that it can fulfil the task. I believe that it is doing its utmost to achieve that end. In the circumstances. it would be very easy for it to be defeatist, to say that it cannot be done and, as it were, to throw in its hand. But the Commission is making the attempt, and we must all wish it success.
  What do the Conservatives propose shall be done? We have had a scheme from the Tory back benchers, a very interesting scheme. It appeared in the Sunday Express last Sunday. I will read what was said:
  "A plan to restore British Railways to private ownership, step by step, is being drafted by Tory M.P.s. They rate it an election winner and will press for its inclusion in the party's manifesto."
  Mr. John Peyton Mr. John Peyton (Yeovil) rose—
  Mr. Davies: I should like to finish what I am reading before I give way.
  Mr. D. Jones: The hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) is one of the auctioneers.
  Mr. Davies: This is not the place for auctions.
  The report goes on:
  "First of the railway properties to be sold to private ownership would be the hotels and catering establishments. Station bars, refreshment rooms, cafeterias and kiosks would all be put up for sale to the highest bidder. Next.

  539
  engines, wagons and passenger coaches will all be made available for purchase to new private railway companies."
  What a brilliant idea. What imagination. How revealing.
  Mr. Peyton: It is not true.
  Mr. Davies: I know that the hon. Gentleman will get up to say that it is not true.
  Mr. Peyton: Of course it is not. The hon. Member really has the most astonishing gift of foresight. That is exactly what I was going to say. If he had read The Times the following morning, and several other papers, with at least the same degree of attention as he devoted to reading that article, he would have seen my denial. I have said quite clearly that there is no plan on the part of the Conservative Transport Committee to denationalise the railways, for one reason, apart from any other, that there are no buyers.
  Mr. Davies: The Times said this about the hon. Gentleman:
  "Mr. J. W. W. Peyton, M.P. for Yeovil, who is chairman of the committee, discounted the suggestion"—
  quite right—
  "(made in weekend reports) that they had a plan which contained proposals for drastic changes in the organisation of the railways by restoring them by stages to private ownership. He said that, apart from other considerations, it was 'very unlikely that anybody would buy the railways'."
  With that we all agree. But I ask the House to listen to this:
  "He agreed that discussion had taken place from time to time about the possibility of selling off to private enterprise certain railway properties—the hotels and catering services, for example—but the committee had no intention of making formal proposals to this effect."
  The next reference is to the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson):
  "Mr. G. Wilson, M.P. for Truro, a former chairman of the committee and now vice-chairman, having only recently returned from the Continent, did not know the details of tomorrow's meeting, but he, too, knew of no plan for the denationalisation of the railways, though some M.P.'s had canvassed the idea on occasions."
  The Times therefore confirms that talks have been going on and proposals have been put forward with regard to the disposal of sections of the railways.
  Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: My reference in The Times was to the fact that over a period of years Conservative Members have from time to time considered what could be done to denationalise nationalised industries. It was no more than that. Various back bench Members at different times have considered various ideas, but no official scheme has been proposed, either by this Committee or any other.
  Mr. Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for confirming what I have said. It is clear that some hon. Members opposite share those views. They never learn. One would have thought that the amputation of the most successful part of the British transport undertaking, British Road Services, at a time when it was earning practically £9 million a year showed the foolishness of further disposals of profitable undertakings.
  In addition to selling off the road haulage section, other proposals are put forward. But if profitable undertakings like catering, Thomas Cook & Son Ltd., Pickfords, hotels and even road passenger services are disposed of, the Commission would be deprived of a surplus of £4½ million which was earned on them last year. What crazy economics it would be to hive off from the Commission those sections which are earning a profit at the present time.
  Sir Spencer Summers: Would it be fair to infer from the hon. Gentleman's remarks to the effect that it would be a mistake to hive off the profitable section of the Commission that it would be sensible to hive off the unprofitable sections?
  Mr. Davies: The hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) stated that he doubted very much whether anybody would buy the railways.
  Sir S. Summers: From his knowledge of the subject, I thought that the hon. Gentleman would have grasped at once that I was referring to the Bowes Committee's recommendations to dispose of the unprofitable canals and branch lines.
  Mr. Davies: One does not want to get diverted into discussing that. I hope that the House will have an opportunity to discuss the Bowes Report in due

  541
  course. That will be the occasion for the Opposition to put forward its views
  Mr. A. J. Champion: The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Summers) can buy the canals.
  Mr. Davies: Apart from the suggestions of Conservative back benchers, what are the Minister's proposals? This afternoon the Minister rightly concentrated on two propositions: first, economy; and secondly, modernisation. We must get the question of economies in its correct perspective. The Minister is insisting on a further economy of £20 million which, with other economies already made, he has asked the Commission to make £30 million next year. But the Commission must be seeking economies all the time. It is a continuing process. In this respect,.the Commission has achieved a great deal since nationalisation in 1948. That is shown by the operating statistics which are published regularly, and every yardstick of efficiency, if applied to the Commission, shows considerable improvement over the last ten years.
  I think that the word "economies" is often a misnomer and is often wrongly applied. Genuine economies are effective if the same services are provided or if goods are produced for less real cost—in other words, where higher efficiency results in increased productivity. That is true economy. That can be achieved by rationalisation which, in the case of the railways, is mainly modernisation. That the railways have set out to do.
  I do not think that by closing down part of one's business or ceasing to provide facilities, irrespective of whether they are required or not, is economy in the true sense. The inconvenience caused may far outweigh the monetary advantages gained. I have a fear that because of this searching after solvency, this great desire to pay our way, the yardstick of profitability under the guise of economy is being too rigidly applied.
  Mr. Arthur Holt: What does the hon. Gentleman use for a yardstick as to whether a thing is necessary? If five people are using a ten-mile branch line, is it therefore necessary? What other yardstick can the hon. Gentleman use
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  other than whether a branch line is making a profit or not?
  Mr. Davies: I was going on to say that clearly there are cases where the removal of a facility is justified. There may be adequate alternative facilities. Some services may be making such a loss or used so infrequently and by so few people that to keep them open would not be justified. But the prime test must not he profitability but public need. Facilities must be provided which are commensurate with the needs of the public. There has and always will be an element of public service in all transport undertakings. Those responsible should ensure that it is preserved. They should not assist in its destruction.
  Economies are necessary, but they are not the main answer. It is not a question of saving the railways by reducing their expenses, necessary as that is. The answer is to get the traffics. That is the way by which the railways will save themselves. The position is made so much more difficult when the traffics are not there. The House will agree, I think, that traffic cannot be obtained without an up to date, efficiently operated railway system.
  Clause 1 is the most important part of the Bill because it is constructive. It raises the borrowing powers by £600 million. That is far more important than meeting the deficit, necessary as that unfortunately is. As I have stated, railways all over the world are suffering from the same difficulties. Articles in The Times yesterday described the difficult situation in the United States, and, as the Minister said, some hon. Members have recently been to Germany and found that the same position obtains there as obtains here.
  Public transport is confronted with the great growth of private transport which has to be regulated in some way. It is partially regulated already by a licensing system. Nobody wants to halt the growth of private transport because it is a natural growth. Sometimes it is more economic for goods to go in vehicles owned by those who produce goods, and it is certainly more economic for many goods to go by road, but—
  Mr. Glover Mr. Glover rose—
  Mr. Davies: I cannot give way, and what is more, I cannot give way in the middle of a sentence.

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  It is economically foolish to allow the vast capital investment in the railways, which are still capable of carrying a great volume of traffic as economically and in many cases more economically than the roads, to become redundant. It is also uneconomic to allow our roads system to be unnecessarily cluttered up with such traffic. It is equally foolish for the railways to carry traffics which could more economically go by road.
  It is necessary, in my view, to find a way of dividing the traffic between the different forms of transport so that it follows the most economic route. It is necessary that goods are carried by the form of transport which is most economical. In the long run that cannot be done, and in the long run there is no solution to the problem which confronts British Railways, unless we have a planned transport system in this country. The Minister accuses me of being pessimistic and of writing in the Manchester Guardian about permanent subsidies. I would point out to him that everything I say is in the light of the present policy under which the transport system of this country is operating. If we were in power and were able to pursue our policy of returning to a fully planned transport system, we should be able to overcome the difficulties which confront us today.
  Mr. Peyton Mr. Peyton rose—
  Mr. Davies: I prefer not to give way again. I am sorry. I have given way a great deal and it is not fair to those other hon. Members who wish to speak.
  In any case, the railway system is becoming obsolete and it is necessary to modernise it. Technically we in this country are as capable as any country in the world of providing the most modern, up-to-date railway system. Those of us who visited France and Germany to look at the railways there found that these techniques today are international. If one visits an automatic signal box at Frankfurt it is like an automatic signal box at York. It is international and it is only a question of having the funds to introduce it.
  In this connection, when the Minister stated that he had backed up modernisation to the hilt, I could not help remembering the exchanges which we had in the House from September, 1957 onwards,
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  when we were rightly accusing him of putting a ceiling on the capital investment of the British Transport Commission which retarded the modernisation programme. That was denied at the time, but in the Commission's Annual Report we can read on page after page that project after project was not proceeded with because of the retarding of capital investment.
  This modernisation programme, on which we are now embarking in full spate, has been made possible only by nationalisation. I am convinced that if the railways had remained under private enterprise it would not have been possible to embark upon this unified, centralised modernisation programme. In spite of this, the Minister, speaking at Dorking on 7th November, was reported in The Times the following day as having said:
  "If only the Socialist Party had worried about modernising the railways instead of spending years of bitter controversy in nationalising them, without a shadow of doubt today their competitive position would be completely changed."
  I observe that the Minister assents. Of course it would be changed—changed for the worse. I hate to think what would have happened to the railways and what conditions they would be in today if they had not been taken over in 1948.
  The Minister deceives himself. Before the war they were in a pretty poor shape under private enterprise and they were heading for bankruptcy. My father, Emil Davies, was one of the pioneers in advocating the nationalisation of the railways. When he died I found a large number of books on railways which he had kept. I have some of them now. Last night I turned to some of them, and I found one with the entrancing title, "Our Bankrupt Railways." That was written in 1929. Another was entitled "Red Light on the Railways.".
  I found another more soberly entitled "The Future of British Railways", which had been written for investors, and I turned to the appendices of this book. I looked first at what capital investment there had been on the four groups during the period covered by the book. The capital expended by the four groups in the thirteen years from 1923 to 1936 was only £67 million and £34½ million of that was lent to the railways by the Government under the Railway Finance Corporation Act. That £34½ million was

  545
  fully guaranteed by the Treasury and was lent to the railways at 2½ per cent., which was 1½ per cent, less than the market rate of 4 per cent. Private enterprise was treated better in those days than the nationalised railways are treated by the Conservative Government today—and in both cases they were Conservative Governments. During those thirteen years the reserves of the railways fell by about £50 million.
  I turned to the dividend records to see how well those private enterprise railways were doing then. Let us first take the London, Midland and Scottish Railway. In 1932 and 1933 it paid nothing on its 4 per cent. redeemable preference stock. In 1934 it paid 1⅝ per cent. This fell again by 1938 to 1½ per cent. On ordinary stock it paid no dividends for the four years 1932 to 1935, only 1¼ per cent. in 1937 and 1½ per cent. in 1938.
  Let us take next the London and North Eastern Railway. [HON. MEMBERS: "The Great Western."] Very well; I will take the Great Western Railway, which has always been quoted as such a great example of private enterprise in those days. We admit that in some ways it was superior to the other groups.
  Mr. Lindgren: It had the easiest job to do.
  Mr. Davies: From 1931 onwards it was paying only 3 per cent., and in those days 3 per cent. on ordinary stock was not considered the height of success for private enterprise.
  To return to the London and North Eastern Railway, I will not bore the House with the figures except to say that on the 5 per cent. preferred ordinary stock, no dividends were paid from 1931 onwards. The deferred stock, which was issued to the public through the normal Stock Exchange channels in 1926, never paid a dividend from the day it was issued. Just imagine these proverbial widows and orphans who in 1926 had bought this London and North Eastern. Railway deferred stock at par, who had been promised a good income and who received nothing up to the time of nationalisation, since when they have received a pittance.
  I trust that we shall hear no more from the Minister about nationalisation delaying modernisation. The poor
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  physical condition and the appalling financial state of the British railways before the war, and the disgraceful wages and working conditions they provided for those who worked upon them, should stand as a lasting reminder of the failure of private enterprise in the railways.
  We on this side of the House, far from being disillusioned with nationalisation, are satisfied that it has made the modernisation of British railways possible, helping to put them into the position of becoming one of the best railway systems in the world. We believe that nationalisation has made that possible and has saved the railways for the nation. So great is our belief in it that when we return to power we shall extend the nationalisation of transport by carrying out our pledge to re-nationalise long-distance commercial road haulage.
  This is the season of largesse, although I admit that the Minister does not look exactly like Father Christmas. Coming here today presenting the Bill to the House, he has in effect been presenting a Christmas Box to the Commission, but in fact he has robbed little Brian's money box in order to fill his stocking with these 150 million golden sovereigns. When poor Brian grows up and ceases to believe in Santa Claus there is a nasty shock awaiting him. He will find that Uncle Harold wants them back—and with interest.
  We do not, of course, oppose the Bill. We regret the necessity for the increase in the amount to be borrowed by the Commission for financing its deficit, but for that we blame the Government's economic policy. There is no alternative but for the Government to make this further advance possible over the coming years. We hope that it will prove adequate and that the expectations of the Commission breaking even by 1962 will be fulfilled. We welcome the doubling of the Commission's borrowing powers, because that is necessary to carry through the great railway modernisation programme on which it is engaged. In that we wish success to the Commission, because in its speedy completion its very future lies.
  5.10 p.m.
  Mr. John Peyton: I do not want to follow the remarks of the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) at any great length, but I should

  547
  like to remind the House that what I said was far from being a confirmation of the remarks he made. He quoted from an article in a Sunday newspaper with which I had no concern whatever, and he appeared not to accept my denial. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The hon. Member began his speech on a note of great pessimism. I was glad to note that at the end there had been a considerable change to optimism, but what I could not and can never understand about speeches from hon. and right hon. Members opposite is that they seem to think that a recession of trade, particularly in the steel industry, has been confined to this country.
  The right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss), from his knowledge of the steel industry, will be very well aware that there has been a considerable and sharp recession in the industry in America, in this country and in Germany. He will know that there is a very reliable index of ore prices and scrap prices which marks that sharp recession, It does not do for hon. Members opposite to say to the House that it is simply and solely the Government's fault that there has been this recession in trade, which we all admit vitally affects the railway industry.
  The hon. Member for Enfield, East permitted himself one or two words with which I can heartily agree. He said quite clearly, and I do not want to argue with him, that the railways can save themselves by getting the traffic. Both sides of the House will cordially agree with that, but apart from that the hon. Member made few remarks with which I am disposed to agree or to which I would give much attention, apart from his great threat that the party opposite intended to nationalise the road haulage industry. He paid no attention to the question of C licences. Everybody knows that the real reason why the Socialist plan for the nationalisation of transport failed in 1945 and after was that the party opposite could not get away with the nationalisation of the C licences. What we want to know is whether, if it is returned to power, the party opposite intends to nationalise C-licence vehicles.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: It has never been proposed by the Labour Party that C-licence vehicles should be nationalised.
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  That is a hare which the Minister is always running. It has never been suggested that there should be nationalisation of C licences. All that has been suggested is that they should be restricted in one form or another. There is a large number of ways in which that can be done, including restriction by distance and by weight.
  Mr. Peyton: I will not follow the hon. Member's example by talking about the past, but I seem to remember that in 1947 there was a great deal of disappointment in the party opposite when his right hon. Friend the then Minister of Transport, who is no longer a Member of the House, announced that the party had given up its plan to control C licences, and I accept the word "control".
  There is in the House a very genuine anxiety, shared by the public, that these requests for rescue by the railways should not become a recurrent feature of our economic life, I particularly welcome the assurance which the Minister gave at the beginning of his speech that this subvention given to the railways would not be used in any way to support uneconomic and unfair competition with road competitors. I also take it from what my right hon. Friend said that the Bill, as the previous Act, will have no bearing whatever upon the Commission's shipping undertakings.
  Mr. Watkinson Mr. Watkinson indicated assent.
  Mr. Peyton: I am very grateful for that assurance.
  Apart from the temporary but very severe loss in freights which the Commission has suffered with coal and minerals, it seems to me that it has three main problems. There is the problem of size, the problem of age, and the problem of morale. Before we seek to remedy these problems, both common sense and honesty demand that we should give a clear answer to the question of what we expect of the railways. Do we want and are we looking for a social service or a commercial undertaking which is on a sound basis and which will pay its way? There may be a difference of opinion as to which we want, but it behoves politicians of all parties to make the choice, stick to it, and accept the consequences. I frankly admit that to do otherwise is grossly unfair to the Commission.

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  I have grave doubt as to the consequences if the choice is made that what we want is a social service. I also accept that if we really wish to make the railways into a social service it will be very difficult for us to avoid taking the whole transport machine into our net, and that includes the very vexed question of C licences. I have always had a strong suspicion that this talk about an integrated system of transport sounds so nice but in practice would turn out to be pie in the sky and very heavy, bureaucratic, over-centralised, and insensitive to market demands. Emphatically from these benches we would always reject such plans, although we recognise that they are important to the party opposite.
  If we want, as we seem to want on these benches, the railways to be a commercial undertaking, then, despite all kinds of constituency aches and pains and embarrassments, we must accept that the Commission is entitled to freedom and that it is entitled to expect that it will not constantly made a plaything of mere political considerations.
  Mr. D. Jones: If the hon. Member is speaking on purely commercial grounds, would he relieve the railways of the responsibility of being common carriers and make them as free as the long-distance road haulage people are to refuse to carry any traffic anywhere unless they receive an economic price?
  Mr. Peyton: During this Parliament a large measure of freedom has been restored to the railways, and, for my part, I would go a very long way to relieve them of obligations which are alien to their commercial operations.
  Mr. Popplewell: What does the hon. Member mean by that?
  Mr. Peyton: This is not the only country that suffers from these troubles. We should not look at them smugly, complacently, or with undue optimism, but at the same time we should not be unduly depressed and cast down about them.
  The hon. Member for Enfield will correct me if I am wrong, but I was with him on the recent visit to Germany to which he has referred, and I was interested to hear the Germans, who are suffering from a similar problem, say that it was their desire to avoid regimentation in their transport system. In the matter
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  of railway profitability, of a sound, strong railway industry in this country, there is a vital issue at stake. Since this is a problem common to many countries, the country first able to solve it satisfactorily will have an immense economic advantage over its competitors.
  I have said that the railways have three major problems, namely, size, age and the present state of morale. I cannot help feeling that size is an enemy of efficiency. It brings over-centralisation and, therefore, militates against efficiency. I am not arguing the question of nationalisation or denationalisation as I have already tried to make clear, it would be idle to talk now of the denationalisation of the railways. Yet I wonder very much if there is not room for hiving off some of these functions and streamlining the operations of the Commission. [An HON. MEMBER: "Such as what?"]
  At present the Commission is a landowner, docker, hotel-keeper and caterer. It has a vast advertising realm and it owns kiosks all over the country. I suggest to the Commission that it should carefully examine the possibility of hiving off, or even selling, many of its assets which are not necessary for the running of a railway. I am not for the moment concerned with whether or not they are profitable. I am simply concerned with the fact that they are not necessary to the efficient and profitable running of a railway.
  Secondly, as regards public relations, it is vital that those functions which are not strictly relevant to the running of the railway should be polished up. A good wash and brush-up of the Commission's catering services would help greatly. I do not want to make too much of this point, but we all recognise that old, stale sandwiches and dirty teacups are not an advertisement for the railways.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite appear to have nothing but contempt for regionalisation and for the area boards.
  Mr. Popplewell Mr. Popplewell rose—
  Mr. Peyton: I believe that the area boards have made a most useful contribution in bringing the railways nearer to and in closer relation with the public who are their customers.
  Mr. Popplewell: What does the hon. Gentleman mean by that?
  Mr. Peyton: The hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to make his speech afterwards.
  Mr. Popplewell: What have they got?
  Mr. Peyton: There is a quite simple answer to the hon. Gentleman. Many people who previously were vigorous and bitter critics are beginning to realise that the railways are able to serve them and relations with the customers, which hon. Gentlemen so often ignore, have been substantially improved.
  Obviously age brings its own problems, and they are none of the Commission's making. Here we accept that modernisation is the only remedy, and I congratulate both the Minister and the Commission on having had the courage to go through with this programme and not to falter. One would like to be satisfied, and I hope the Commission will give careful thought to this, that every avenue of modernisation has been properly weighed, the one against the other.
  Particularly on the question of power, I wonder whether adequate consultation has taken place between the Commission and my right hon. Friend, and also with his noble Friend the Minister of Power, on the proper use of the right form of power in the future. Because it is obviously a sensible course, I welcome the announcement of my right hon. Friend this afternoon, on behalf of the Commission, of the intention to proceed faster with modernisation on a narrower front, and not to try to do too many things at the same time.
  I wish particularly to deal with the last of the problems I mentioned, namely, morale. For far too long now the railways have been every comedian's whipping boy. They have also been the shuttlecock of party politics, and that has not helped morale. It is true that trains are late, and late trains are always things which people find it interesting to talk about. It is odd, however, that nobody is prepared to say that their train is punctual from time to time. In fact, the line on which I travel is regularly and consistently a good timekeeper. I am not talking from a party point of view and I think we could all make a contribution to the efficient running of the railways by being reasonable in our attitude to them, and by not voicing purely petty, irresponsible criticisms.
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  I hope it will be within the memory of hon. Gentlemen opposite that on one or two occasions I have raised in this House the problem of labour relations on the railways. One of the most urgent tasks facing the Commission is that of restoring to the railwaymen, as well as to the public, not only a sense of the importance of the job done by the individual railwayman but confidence in the future which the railways have to offer.
  I recognise that labour relations in so large an enterprise as the British Transport Commission are not easy, either from the point of view of the Commission or from that of the union leaders. I hope very much that the new atmosphere of co-operation will grow. Particularly do I hope that it will be possible, by cooperation between the unions and the Commission, to eliminate some of the frustrating complications of railway grades. It should be the immediate concern of the Commission and of the unions to ensure that avenues of promotion are kept clear for men who intend to make their careers in the industry.
  The question of how many unions there should be, and what are the advantages of having one railway union, is far too tender for me to deal with, but I shall be most interested to hear the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite on this point. I do not believe they will be unanimous.
  Lastly, I refer to Sir Brian Robertson himself. Sir Brian Robertson has had one of the most difficult tasks in post-war industry. He has had many critics. At this stage of railway history those critics would do well either to come out into the open and clearly demand his resignation, or give him their support, because it is clear that nagging is most unhelpful. I am profoundly impressed by the sober confidence with which Sir Brian, a man of known uprightness, maintains the objectives of the Commission. I believe that in that task he is entitled to strong support from the House of Commons, anxious as we are to see his own prophecies and his own confidence justified by the events which lie ahead.
  5.31 p.m.
  Mr. Ernest Popplewell: I could not agree more with what the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) said in his closing remarks. However, I suggest that if he wants to end the nagging at the British

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  Transport Commission he should sack the Minister and the Government, for since hon. Members opposite came to power they have done nothing but nag at the Commission and try to prevent it from doing that efficient job of which it is capable. If the hon. Member spoke as chairman of the Tory back benchers' transport committee, and was sincere, the sooner he sacks the Minister and the Government the better.
  Mr. Peyton: I hope that the hon. Member will not doubt my sincerity, for I would not doubt his. I hope he will accept my assurance that I consider that nothing I have said is in any way contradictory to the policy of my right hon. Friend and his colleagues.
  Mr. Popplewell: That is to run away from what the hon. Member said about nagging. There are many instances where the Government have nagged the Commission.
  I listened to the Minister with great interest. I was struck by the "flannel "at the beginning of his speech, in referring to the livelihood of railwaymen, and by the end of it when he paid tribute to the men engaged in the industry. Those were the two outsides of the sandwich of which the contents were such that railwaymen could not get much confidence from them.
  The right hon. Gentleman stressed that the Commission agreed that it should not charge fares which were too high. That is an example of nagging, for the Commission has never attempted to charge fares which were too high. When the Commission asked the Transport Tribunal to permit a 10 per cent. increase in fares it asked for less than the minimum required to meet increased costs, to which I hope to refer later.
  Another example of nagging comes from the way the modernisation programme has been handled. First, the Minister curtailed it, and then he began to jerk it up.
  Mr. Peyton Mr. Peyton indicated dissent.
  Mr. Popplewell: The hon. Member had better remember that he will not be chairman of the Tories' transport committee very long, and that his hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson) will go back to that office if he denies my words on this subject.
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  After the original plan had been envisaged, the inflation caused by Government policy led to a retardation of the plan, and the result was that the Commission was involved in another £300 million expenditure. That is an example of nagging. Another example was given today when the Minister said that he intended to set up a committee of inquiry to consider the future prospects of the plan. The Minister has narrowed the plan and has talked about a further saving of between £20 million and £30 million. When we asked him where the extra economies could be made, he referred to dieselisation in the West Riding and other places.
  However, we know that that was part of the original plan. We know that dieselisation and electrification have helped to increase the Commission's receipts. We asked how the savings of £20 million or £30 million were to be made, but the Minister shielded himself by "passing the buck" to his Parliamentary Secretary, saying that the hon. Gentleman would deal with the matter in more detail. One would have supposed that the Minister would have had such information at his finger tips. This is more evidence of nagging, and this is why railwaymen do not trust the Minister or the Government.
  Mr. Glover: I am sure that the hon. Member does not want to mislead the House. The Minister said that the Transport Commission had already got £20 million of savings, and that he had asked it to try to increase that to £30 million, so that what we are arguing about is the difference between £20 million and £30 million.
  Mr. Popplewell: I wonder whether the hon. Member is on the Tory transport committee, because that interjection shows a complete lack of understanding. I understood the Minister to say—and no doubt the Parliamentary Secretary will correct me if I am wrong—that the Commission had agreed to make an additional saving of between £20 million and £30 million.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): What my right hon. Friend said was that he had asked the Commission to increase its undertaking for 1959 of additional

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  economies of £20 million per annum— that appears in paragraph 35 (a) of the White Paper—to £30 million.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: It cannot be done.
  Mr. Popplewell: Of course, it cannot be done and if the Minister is honest he will admit that it cannot be done. This is another example of drawing a red herring across the trail and of being overoptimistic, as often happens in these debates.
  The hon. Member for Yeovil pinpointed the main cleavage between the two sides of the House on the subject of transport. We believe in a fully integrated transport system. The Government, on the other hand, believe that transport can be worked on what they term a profitability basis. It is, therefore, as well to see exactly what the position is today. We began to build up a fully integrated transport system. We took over the railways and large sections of road haulage, and we had visions of taking over bus transport. We believed that by doing this we could combine profitability with the provision of a service according to need.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) has rightly referred to the position of the railways in pre-war days. He could have gone further and referred to the position of road transport then. He could have referred to the many Acts which had to be placed on the Statute Book to provide safeguards in relation to adequate loading and hours of employment. We began to integrate the provisions of the Acts. We introduced the Measure which became the Act of 1948. It is astounding to think that by 1951–52 we had turned an undertaking which was in financial difficulty into one showing a profit of £4½ million, after paying out between £50 million and £60 million in central charges.
  That was a remarkable feat. We were provided an efficient system. The 3,000 firms who were taken over in our road haulage build-up were well satisfied, and users were better pleased than ever before with the service provided. Hon. Members opposite know how many protests came from Tory businessmen when the Government decided to break up road haulage.
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  In four years we had caused the undertaking to build up a profit of £4½ million.
  What a contrast today. From 1953, when the policy of the present Government commenced to operate, the Commission began to go into the "red". Today, that profit of £4½ million has been turned into a deficit of £220 million. That is a remarkable transformation. Is there any wonder that nobody trusts the Ministry of Transport? It is the nagging policy of the Ministry towards the Commission which has brought about this situation.
  I have made certain statements, and it is up to me to prove them.
  Mr. John Howard: In which year did the Commission make this loss of £220 million? The hon. Member compared a profit of £4½ million with a deficit of £220 million.
  Mr. Popplewell: I wonder whether the hon. Member is a Member for the Tory transport committee. I said that a profit of £4½ million for one year had been turned into a total cumulative deficit of £220 million between 1953 and 1958.
  Until recently the Commission had been making an overall profit on working costs. The deficiency does not arise on working costs. The Commission's accountability is different from that of an ordinary commercial undertaking, which shows a profit or loss according to whether or not it makes a profit or loss on its working expenses and kindred charges. Before the Commission can say that it has made a profit or a loss it must make certain payments—in the last year totalling £58,900,000, and in the year before £60,400,000—by way of central and interest charges.
  The Commission is in tremendous difficulty. It cannot adjust its charges as other undertakings can. In 1956, it submitted an application for an increase in fares based upon the fact that certain costs had risen against it. Let me enumerate some of those costs. By February, 1956, when the application was made, the cost of steel rails, as compared with the cost in 1939, had risen by 330 per cent.; the cost of steel plates by 275 per cent.; the cost of copper plates by 270 per cent.; the cost of copper tubes by 245 per cent.; the cost of brass bars by 470 per cent., and of timber sleepers by 550 per cent. The cost of coal—and here I am taking 1938 as the comparable year—had risen

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  by 410 per cent., and labour costs had risen two-and-a-half times.
  That was the background to the application made by the Commission for an increase in fares. It asked for an increase of roughly 10 per cent. on goods charges, and an adjustment in passenger fares. The Commission could see a loss of £55 million in 1956, having already made a loss of £30 million in 1955. The 10 per cent was to reimburse the Commission only to the extent of about £37 million, and the remaining £18 million was to be obtained through economies. After everybody had had the opportunity to object, the Transport Tribunal agreed that the Commission had a good case.
  What did the big "Pooh-Bah" at the Ministry do? Even when this had been agreed, to meet the extortionately high costs of raw materials which I have enumerated, and which, in some instances, were 550 per cent. above pre-war levels, even when the Tribunal had agreed to a 10 per cent. increase in freight charges, to give the Commission elbow room, and had also agreed to allow the Commission to adjust the passenger charges, the Minister said to the Commission, "You should not increase by 10 per cent., but only by 5 per cent., and only for six months. At the end of that time we will have another look at it." At the end of six months the Minister persuaded the Commission to keep the increase at 5 per cent.
  Here is another piece of evidence of the nagging which has been going on. As a consequence, instead of the Commission being able to recuperate that £55 million, it now faces a loss. The Commission was not able to impose the proper charges and at the end of the year it was £54 million "in the red". That is an absolutely fantastic situation.
  As I have said, the Commission does not practise ordinary commercial methods of accounting to arrive at a figure of profit after deducting working expenses. It has to take into consideration the amount of £60,400,000 in respect of central charges in 1956. Of that sum £57,700,000 represents interest. In 1957, the total figure went down from £60 million to £58,900,000. All this has to be paid before the Commission can decide whether it has made a profit or otherwise.
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  Against that background the Minister had the audacity to send the letter of 30th October to the Chairman of the Commission in which he stated:
  "The B.T.C. restates its view that a modern railway system is essential to our industrial future. I do not dissent, although as you recognise, it will have to be a more compact and efficient system than it is today."
  What cheek! The Minister refers to a more efficient system when the Ministry has already done its best to damn any efficiency.
  The letter goes on:
  "I shall look to you and your colleagues therefore to press forward with your plans for securing economies with the utmost determination. I appreciate that your 1958 financial picture is, to a large extent, due to external causes, but continued repetition would impair financial discipline and confidence in the financial future of the railways. Nor can the Government envisage an indefinite extension of the time when the Commission will break even."
  That last sentence was emphasised by the Minister in his speech today. In view of the action taken by the right hon. Gentleman, by his nagging and his prevention of the Commission from doing a proper job, for him to send out a letter like that is, to say the least, the very last word in cheek and hypocrisy.
  Today, we are faced with a Bill which, in its second part, gives permission to the Commission to borrow an extra £150 million to cover the period until 1961–62 when, the Government say, the Commission should break even. This £150 million is in addition to the £250 million which was given in 1957, making a total of £400 million. The Commission must go on paying interest and central charges to the tune of about £60 million and this £400 million is borrowed to pay that. In other words, money is being borrowed to pay the interest charges on money which has already been borrowed. Is not that a fantastic "Alice in Wonderland" system of financing?
  I do not query the first part of the Bill, where reference is made to £600 million for capitalisation and modernisation. That is entirely the right thing to do.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: It is not nagging?
  Mr. Popplewell: That is certainly not nagging. What I have been referring to represents nagging on the part of the

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  Government, and the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) must know that as well as I do.
  As was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East, the Commission will not find itself saddled with only £60 million to pay in central charges, but with an amount which will be nearer £100 million.
  Mr. Cole: Suppose this £400 million were not the subject of this Bill. As the Commission expects to make a loss this year of £85 million, and as central charges are only £58 million, what does the hon. Gentleman propose about the way in which the £27 million should be found by the Commission, if not by some form of borrowing?
  Mr. Popplewell: We shall support the Bill because Government policy has made such a Measure necessary. All along I have argued that if we had an integrated transport system, the present position would never have arisen. In support of that argument I refer hon. Members to the profit of £4½ million made in 1951–52. Over the years that has been converted into a deficit, making it necessary to introduce this Bill.
  Let us examine another example of the nagging which has taken place and which was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East—the breakup of the road haulage service. British Road Services were building up a very efficient road haulage service of which everyone was becoming very proud. It was beating private enterprise. Its administrative costs were 25 per cent. less than those of private enterprise. Its operating costs were 20 per cent. less than those of private enterprise for every 100 tons carried, and that was a wonderful achievement. The present Government broke up that service. I could quote quite a lot of figures in connection with that. The Government said that the British Transport Commission could retain only one-fifth more of its road haulage fleet than the railways had in pre-war days, and they directed the Commission to sell its vehicles.
  So adamant were the Government on this point that vehicles were put up for sale several times, because when they were first offered there were no buyers. It was the Teddy boys who preceded the
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  present Minister who insisted on that, and with what result? There was a net capital loss to the Commission of between £10 million and £20 million. This is a debt and a difficulty which the Commission has to carry the whole time. It is the policy of the Government which has brought about the necessity for this £400 million to be found and which never should have been necessary.
  There has been much talk about C licences. It has been suggested on more than one occasion by ill-informed Tory propagandists, or probably by propagandists prompted by the Tory Central Office off the record, that the Commission has a monopoly service. I give credit even to the hon. Member for Twickenham for denying that. The Commission, of course, has no monopoly services except on the railways, where it has common carrier obligations because it is the only undertaking which can run a railway service. It has a common carrier obligation which was rightly pinned on the railways at the time when there were very few other forms of transport than by rail. I do not want to see that common carrier obligation taken from the railways. I should be perfectly frank about that. There is no argument from this side of the House that that obligation should go.
  What we draw attention to is that if road competition and C licence holders are to carry commodities, as they do, they should not have only the best types of goods to carry, but should have common carrier obligations the same as the railways have. On 1st June, 1957, the B.T.C. had about 33,000 road haulage vehicles on the roads. Other road operators, private hauliers with A and B licences, had 151,000. As the Minister rightly said, C licence holders had more than I million. I believe that he said the number was 1,047,000. That was the position on 1st June, 1957, but, between December, 1946, and September, 1957, C licence vehicles increased by no fewer than 657,800; in other words, 176 per cent. About 80 per cent. of those are vehicles of under 2½ tons unladen weight and consist of private vans operated over limited areas.
  There is no objection to that type of thing. It is the right thing to do, but when we come to the question of vehicles of 2½ tons unladen weight and over carrying goods well over the 40 mile

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  radius—very long distances—there is a challenge not only to the nationalised section, but also to the 151,000 private A and B licence holders. In the independent survey made by Messrs. Glover and Miller, in 1952, when there was a far smaller number of C licence holders than there are today, it was suggested that C licence holders were carrying more than 50 million tons of goods over a 40 mile radius and in doing that those people were in an extremely privileged position.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: Like C.W.S. milk vans?
  Mr. Popplewell: They are the people who can select what traffic they like. They have a selective market and operate under extremely favourable conditions, to say the least. They have no common carrier obligations nor anything of that description. They are grossly inefficient in their operations. The empty travelling of those vehicles reaches astronomical mileage figures per year. All this increases the difficulties of congestion of the roads and difficulties over fuel. It is estimated, on the nearest calculation that can be made, that out of an annual expenditure of approximately £1,000 million spent on road haulage only about one-third goes to the public haulier. The real competition and difficulty is not from the B.T.C., whose competition is extremely fair, with better vehicles and better maintained vehicles, but comes from the private road haulier.
  It is estimated that 19 per cent. of the C licence holders are carrying more than 16·5 per cent. of the total amount of goods carried by road over a 40 mile radius. If we want an efficient transport it is no use the Minister nagging at the Commission in the way that he has repeatedly done. If he wants to be helpful, and to serve the best interests of the nation as a whole, these are some of the things he should deal with in an effort to get a co-ordinated system. He could then have it on much cheaper terms than he has today.
  Often we get complaints from constituents and from hon. Members opposite about the closing of branch lines, and so on. It is well to look at what is happening to the bus services. From 1946 to 1956 the number of buses increased by about 21,000, an average of 2,000 a year. Seating capacity was increased
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  enormously and receipts from road passenger services, excluding the L.T.E., rose to £233 million in 1956. Of that sum, £176 million was for bus services other than those in which the Commission has a financial interest. Road passenger journeys in 1956 went up to 12,254,000 against rail passenger journeys, which dropped considerably from what they were in pre-war days. Yet people say that the Commission would be wrong to withdraw branch lines.
  When this question was being debated the other night the Joint Parliamentary-Secretary made the defence that these branch lines had to be closed and that people living in country areas could cadge lifts in neighbours' cars. Was there ever such a barren idea? These people, many of whom vote Tory, must go to charity. They ought to remember that it is the Tory Party which now is suggesting, "If you have not got a car you should go to your neighbour who has a car and ask for a lift". It is no use the Minister shaking his head. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary was saying this the other night. The Minister must think that it is always election time.
  Mr. Watkinson: I was only wondering when the hon. Member would address himself to the Bill. That is all.
  Mr. Popplewell: I am doing the same as the right hon. Gentleman did I am dealing with the causes of the Bill.
  The right hon. Gentleman dealt with modernisation. We are avowed supporters of modernisation, and have been all the time. I am not going to devote as much time to modernisation as the Minister did, because we are agreed upon that. I am drawing attention to the second part of the Bill, which the Minister does not like to have pin-pointed, because it is he and his policy which have brought this state of affairs about.
  Another point with which the Minister dealt and I want to deal concerns the area boards. We have repeatedly asked the Minister for information about these boards. Frankly, I still have to be convinced of their usefulness. I do not think they serve a useful purpose at all. Hence my question. I am open to be convinced, but I am not going to accept the brief statement we have had that these boards make contact with outside traders, and

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  that relations are better in consequence. That can be done with a public relations officer of a good type.
  There are other questions which I should like to ask, and I hope the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will reply to them. First, what is the actual cost of these area boards? How much is being paid to the members? What are the expenses involved? What are their actual duties? How often do they meet?
  Mr. D. Jones: Once a month.
  Mr. Popplewell: What task are they performing which could not be carried out better by the chief regional officer without their interference? When we set up our system, we believed that we had to have a centralised system to start with and for a time, but we said that we should have to decentralise certain functions. When the present Government came into power, the Commission was in process of doing that, and the Government told the Commission to set up area boards. I want to know what these boards are doing that these chief regional officers could not do, and I hope that this question will be answered. It is no use saying, as the Minister says, "Oh, well, the area boards decide the type of paint that goes on the engines and coaches in the area." What is the cost of these area boards, and what are they actually doing?
  Will the Minister say what has been the increase in administrative appointments internally within the areas since the setting up of these area boards? I strongly suspect that the setting up of the board has carried a whole train of administrative appointments in area headquarters. I know that in the head offices, instead of one chief of a department making contact with the chief of the next department and getting a settlement, as was the case, he now has to write a memorandum and have it carried to the next office. This is the type of thing that has been going on. I tell the Minister, quite frankly, and I am saying this seriously, that this kind of thing—the top-heavy structure which has been instituted since the setting up of these area boards—has become a standing joke among practical railwaymen. I should like a very serious detailed investigation to take place there, because I think that it is entirely unnecessary
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  and not in the best interests of the transport industry.
  There are other questions to which I should like answers. How many members of the area boards are connected with undertakings making commodities required for railway use? How many members of the area boards have outside financial interests in such undertakings? There is a suspicion attached to this, and I could quote chapter and verse for the suspicion that has been aroused in this direction. If the Minister refuses to give answers on this point, I shall claim that that simply confirms our suspicions that these boards are not justified at all, but are simply the means of providing more "jobs for the boys". We know that the Government have been very active in rewarding so many of their friends since they came into power.
  The Government have forced the Commission to close a lot of branch lines. They have forced the Commission to look at every single unit of its undertaking and weigh it up, as it were, in a profitability account. This is entirely foreign to a transport undertaking. Even under the old private enterprise days the railways used to carry a certain amount of non-profitable branch line traffic. To force the Commission to close so many branch lines is not in the best interests of the nation as a whole. The Commission itself has a soul of its own, but it has to obey the directives of the Minister. It has to look carefully into these things.
  We know about the safeguards of the transport users' consultative Committees, and how careful the Commission is in making a check on all expenses and such matters before they adopt any suggestion. It goes even further. To try to give some service to the people in the countryside the Commission actually subsidises private bus operators so that they may give a service. I could quote chapter and verse for these subsidies given by the Commission to provide a service at all, because the Commission is more service conscious than the Minister himself.
  I am probably speaking for far too long. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Members opposite may cheer. Perhaps they do not like what I am saying; at least, the Minister does not.

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  On the question of staff problems, we know the difficulties there have been in staffing, and how difficult it has been for the men actually engaged within the industry. The Commission itself has acknowledged that the railwaymen have been extremely reasonable when rising costs, for which they are not responsible, have compelled them to make application for increased wages, so as to lift themselves from the lowly position which they occupied in the wages table in relation to the very responsible positions they hold. Government policy, however, has repeatedly prevented the Commission granting to the men some increase, or at least making a gesture which the Commission itself felt it was entitled to do.
  It was a very interesting day in the history of industrial relations when Judge Cameron made his famous declaration that the Government, having willed the end, must provide the means. That was one of the most momentous decisions ever taken, and we have seen from then onwards that there has been co-operation and a realisation by the Commission, and by the trade union leaders in conducting negotiations, of a responsibility second to none throughout the whole industrial field. That is a wonderful achievement.
  The setting up of the new committee of inquiry, of Messrs. Guillebaud, Bishop and Clegg, is a very important matter indeed. I hope that this committee will go quickly ahead with its task of investigation and see exactly what the status of railwaymen and their responsibility should be. I hope that if they make any recommendations for giving railwaymen the correct status for their responsibility the Minister will not clamp down and prevent the Commission from implementing them. The co-operation between the trade union leaders and the Commission has been a wonderful achievement and is of the highest order. Given an opportunity in this direction, we can go from strength to strength.
  One hon. Member has referred to morale among railwaymen. Of recent years, there has been a tremendous increase in their morale, not because of the area boards, but because, although the men realise the difficulties that the Commission is facing as a result of Tory policy, there is a genuine desire to do the right thing.
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  Railwaymen have recently been shocked. We had the prosecution of Driver Trew for the Lewisham disaster and we have had the prosecution of Driver Wembridge for the Eastbourne disaster. Remember what a responsibility these men carry. It is staggering. I wonder how many realise that the basic pay of top-rate drivers is only £11 9s. a week. They carry all this responsibility on £11 9s. a week and then face a charge of manslaughter or the like.
  How many people realise that the basic rate for signalmen goes from the lowest rate, Class 4, £8 16s., to the highest-paid, Special Class C, £11 6s. 6d. in the London area? In the rest of the country it is 3s. a week less. It is these top-rate men who staff the modern boxes. The York signal box is the pride of the world and we all like to visit it. There is a lot that could be said about these power-equipped boxes. Those are the rates of pay for the work.
  It is the Minister and the Government who refuse to allow the Commission to make it a more efficient undertaking by paying everybody the right amount. They have reduced the Commission to the absurdity of finance by having to borrow this extra £150 million to make their borrowing £400 million to pay interest charges. The Minister may not like this line of approach, but it is fundamental to the borrowing powers that are necessary in the Bill.
  I do not wish to cross swords with the Minister on modernisation, because there is no keener supporter for modernisation than the railway man. He has been astounded that he has had to operate an undertaking efficiently with such antiquated machinery at his disposal when he knows how our railway engineers, among whom are the finest brains in the world, are capable of producing what is necessary to make ours an efficient transport system. Therefore, in anything that can be done to press forward the modernisation plan, the Minister can be assured that we on this side are behind him.
  I agree that capital was refused to the railway undertakings even in our day, and I think it was a mistake, but it was not our mistake alone. It was perpetuated by the Minister's predecessors in office over a period of years when conditions were more favourable than during our term of office. We had, first, to restore

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  the economy. In anything that can be done to improve efficiency, we on this side are behind the Minister. We shall support the Bill, because it is inevitable that the Commission must have the money. As my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East said, although we dislike the necessity for it, we think that it is necessary.
  6.26 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell) into all the ramifications of his speech with which he has regaled the House for the last fifty-five minutes. I want to raise one point which is fundamental to the consideration of the Bill and which has not been specifically mentioned, although my right hon. Friend the Minister did touch on it.
  Before deciding how railways should be financed and how much public money should be available to them, we must decide on the nature of the operation that we are proposing to carry out. To take an analogy from the building industry, before deciding on the amount to be spent on repairs to a house, one must decide whether one is making temporary repairs to a building that is due for demolition or whether it is to be a permanent improvement to a structure which is intended to remain. To put it more bluntly, in spending money on railways, are we spending on a form of transport which is usefully necessary at the present time but which ultimately will become extinct, like the sailing ship, or are we improving a service which we expect to continue as far as we can see into the future?
  The hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) mentioned that a number of hon. Members had visited both France and Germany and seen their modernisation plans. It is interesting to compare the general attitude towards railways in different countries. As far as one could see, the French regard railways as a social service. French railway finance is extremely complicated. It was difficult to get a clear picture of their financial arrangements because the French Government impose so many concessionary fares, and so on, upon the French railways that it was not easy for them to give us figures compar-
  568
  able to our own. Furthermore, the French officials were not very much interested, because it was assumed that their Government would in any case meet the deficit. If railways are treated as a social service, the question whether they are paying their way becomes less important.
  The Germans, on the other hand, do not accept railways as a social service. It is intended that they should pay their way. The State, however, appeared quite happy to pay out deficits year by year on the assumption that some day or other the difficulty would be overcome. As far as we could see, the general difficulty was that the German railways were subject to a number of legal restrictions, similar to many of those which we have removed from our own British railways by the 1953 Act. The official German view was that they wished to get rid of these restrictions and also adjustments of taxation, so as to get an equal starting point in competition as between road and rail and inland waterways.
  One hon. Member has already referred to the articles in The Times on the American railways, from which it appeared that the Americans take the same view as the Germans in assuming that the railways are here for good. In America, the railways will be run by private enterprise in conditions of free competition, and it is assumed that the thing to do is to get an equal starting point in competition by equalisation of taxation as between railways, roads and waterways, and relief from legal restrictions on railways.
  A large number of people in this country are gradually coming to question whether, as a form of transportation, the railways have a long-term future. Even twenty years ago, such a view would have been unthinkable. As the pioneers of railways and the originators of the steam engine, we have always been greatly impressed by this system, and have built up a tradition of regard, awe—almost of veneration—for it. In a previous debate I quoted a number of the Victorian writers to show their attitude towards railways. In particular, I quoted a passage from Charles Dickens, in which he compares the omnipotence of the railway engine with the wings of the Angel of Death— as well question the future of the Bank of England as the future of our railways in those days.

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  That attitude is not prevalent now. A generation is growing up which questions the future of the railways in times when one family in four has a car, and when more and more travel on their holidays by air. More and more are now inclined to the view that transport in future will be mostly by air, with the roads taking care of the rest, and that the railways are only a temporary provision.
  When, all over the world, we see the railways suffering from the same difficulties of deficits and of falling traffics— with the notable exception of Holland— there is some superficial support for this view, but I think that it is altogether too facile. In transport matters, one country cannot be compared with another.
  As I have pointed out before the choice that the private individuals and traders make between competing forms of transport is either to consider cheapness as the main factor, losing sight of such considerations as speed, comfort or convenience, or to pay less regard to the price and greater attention to other factors such as speed and convenience. No one can say which of those considerations will prevail. Therefore, the gentleman in Whitehall finds it quite impossible to plan a properly integrated service of passengers and goods without doing violence to the views of many people. He is not in a position to judge which choice the individual will make.
  As one hon. Member interjected to say, the only way of finding out what transport people want is to find out whether they are prepared to pay for it. If they are prepared to pay for it, they want it— otherwise, they do not. The difficulty is that that test is not ascertainable forthwith. The providers of transport— whether private enterprise or nationalised —have to estimate in advance what the demand is likely to he, and, in doing so, must take into consideration, not only the history, geography and economic position of the country with which they are concerned, but the temperamental differences of the people in it.
  I understand, for instance, that in the United States, air travel is quite a serious competitor of the railways. That is as one would expect, not only because the Americans are more prone than we are to be interested in a new thing, not only because their high standard of living makes them less interested in cheapness
  570
  and more interested in the other factors that I have mentioned, but because their principal cities are far apart and, therefore, air travel has the great advantage of speed.
  In our little island, fog-bound as it is, with its cities clustered close together, each surrounded by suburbs, and by agricultural land of high value, making it difficult to site airports at convenient spots, the advantage of speed of communication in air transport is much less than it otherwise would be— —
  Mr. Glover: I think that my hon. Friend is, perhaps, putting too much stress on the great distances between American cities. Boston and Montreal are only 250 miles apart, and the airline there makes four stops. It is, therefore, making four 50-mile hops, on feeder lines, and I think that we could do the same.
  Mr. Wilson: Yes, I agree. but that is another point. Internal hopping might be operated in this country if we had aircraft that could take off and land vertically, but we have the disadvantage, which some countries are fortunate in not having. that the conditions in our country make it necessary to have the most elaborate and costly precautions in relation to landing and taking off in had weather. A local airport is not much use for a regular service unless it has those precautions and, unless there is a reasonable amount of traffic, it is too costly to make provision for them. My point is that, because of that, competition from airlines in this country is likely to remain less than in more spacious lands.
  Next, I turn to competition from water transport. We do not really need to concern ourselves with that form of competition. It is met with on the Continent, but whatever is done about the Bowes Report, I do not think it likely that our canals will be used sufficiently to make them a serious competitor of the railways.
  The other competitor is road transport. There are those who say that the money spent on railway modernisation would be better spent on speeding up the roads programme. We in this House have been circulated by a group of people who want to pull up the railways altogether and put roads on the sites. I suggest that those interested in better roads should be cautious in the advocacy of either of these views.

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  When other hon. Members and I visited Germany, we were given some interesting figures by the Swedish firm that is interested in constructing a monorail. I give the figures as I took them down, but I do not profess to know whether they are correct. On the basis of a single line of road, we were told that there could be carried past a given point about 2,000 passengers an hour in private vehicles, and 8,000 per hour in buses; and that the equivalent capacity by train on the same site would be 50,000 passengers per hour.
  As I say, I do not know how accurate those figures are, but the general principle certainly is true that a given stretch of land can carry more people or goods in a given time as a railway than would be possible were it used as a road. I therefore think that those who imagine they can improve the services of this country by taking up the railways and putting roads in their place are deluding themselves—quite apart, of course, from the fact that the over-bridges and other structures would not give sufficient clearance for road vehicles unless altered.
  My right hon. Friend has made very great progress with road construction and improvement but, as every motorist knows, so many new vehicles are coming on to the roads every year that any Minister of Transport will be hard put to it to improve the roads fast enough to meet the demands made on them. It would be disastrous for road users if the railways ceased to carry the thousand million passengers they carry at present; and if all those people were suddenly diverted to road transport. In a limited field the railways ought not to have any difficulty in holding their own. I have already indicated that in connection with rush hour suburban traffic, railways can carry more passengers on a given space than the roads can. In such conditions railways ought to be able to provide profitable services. For long-distance night travel it ought to be possible for railways to provide cheaper and more comfortable services in many cases than could be otherwise provided and for heavy goods in bulk it ought to be possible for railways to carry large quantities for a cheaper price than by road, for reasons which have already been mentioned in this debate.
  572
  The two great advantages of road transport are that the owner of his own vehicle can start or stop when and where he likes and he can have door-to-door delivery with much less handling. The first of these advantages the railways cannot overcome. But the second disadvantage railways can and do minimise to a large extent by means of containers, fork lifts and the like, so they ought to be able to retain quite a lot of traffic by such means.
  It must be remembered that we as pioneers of railways built a large number of railways in our enthusiasm in the early days which were redundant from the day that they were built. Long before there was any serious railroad competition one mainline terminus in London was always known to railwaymen as the "bird-cage", because it was supposed that the railway staff in that particular case had little to do but whistle. Many of these lines were abandoned long ago, and others have been recently. No doubt others will have to be abandoned, but with a proper pruning of the services I have no doubt that the railways can fulfil a useful function.
  It is a mistake to suppose that the motorways can provide a faster service in transit than the railways. The new diesel or electric express engines can travel at 100 m.p.h. and goods trains can travel at 45 to 60 m.p.h., and even on the motorways a private motorist or a lorry driver will find difficulty in doing better than that. The great advantage of the road is its flexibility and the ability of people to travel where and when they like. For these reasons, while there is every need to build more roads, I think that there is a good future for the railways and that we are not unwise in supporting this Bill even with regard to long-term policy and not merely as a temporary bolstering up of something which will eventually disappear.
  6.43 p.m.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: I am sure that the House has listened with great interest to the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson). He has spent many years, before coming to this House, in the railway industry and I am sure that it will be a great consolation to my constituents in Crewe, one of the biggest railway centres in the world, to know

  573
  that there is a future for British Railways. When the hon. Member started examning the problem I wondered where he was coming down. I am glad that he supports the Bill and that he sees a great future for our railways.
  In my submission, a large part of this great deficit is directly due to the deliberate policy of Her Majesty's Government. The falling off of traffic is due to the credit squeeze and the great reduction in industrial activity. In Cmd. 585, from which the Minister quoted, Sir Brian Robertson, in many paragraphs, points to the present deficit and loss as due to the grave fall in bulk and heavy traffics which has occurred, particularly during the third quarter of the year. In paragraph 2, he states:
  "The serious drop in activity, particularly in heavy industry, in recent months has, however, caused a precipitous fall in the revenues of British Railways."
  In paragraph 3, he states:
  "The sum total of all railway traffic receipts for the first 36 weeks shows a decline of over £18 million."
  In paragraph 10, he states:
  "The severe and unpredicted fall in the level of production by the heavy industries is thus the crux of the Commission's revenue problem at this time."
  The Government wished to deflate. That was their specific object in imposing the credit squeeze.
  The hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), chairman of the Conservative transport committee, rather doubted whether what my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) said was correct because there has been a decline in the steel industry elsewhere. The view of hon. Members on these benches does not accord with that, nor does the view of hon. Members opposite, because we have heard it claimed that the credit squeeze which has been a deliberate policy of the Government had, in fact, caused deflation in the economy and was productive of good results. They cannot have it both ways, and that is what the Conservative Party is so anxious to do on so many occasions.
  Not only that. The deficit is also due to cuts in the capital investment programme. They have led to the great decrease in the work available in railway workshops. The cuts which have been imposed, reimposed, taken off, and reimposed again are due to the vacillations of the
  574
  policy of the present Government. I quote the words of Sir John Benstead as to its effect on the morale of people in the industry. He said:
  "It is difficult to sustain the morale and enthusiasm of the staff"
  when cuts and changes are made by Government action. They start upon a programme of expansion and then the Minister comes along and says, "This must be played down. We must delay the programme."
  I wish particularly to speak about the position of railway workshops, because in my constituency we have one of the largest railway workshops in the world. We are very proud of the steam locomotives which have been produced in Crewe, and we hope that in future the Crewe railway shops will make as large a contribution to British railways as they have done in the past, and that they will be allowed to make diesels.
  There is in Crewe a great reservoir of human skill and capacity; but unemployment is rising. It was 1·5 per cent. twelve months ago and it is 2·8 per cent. today—0·5 per cent. above the national average. The Commission, in my submission, should make the fullest possible use of its own workshops. The staff of such workshops should be fully employed before work goes elsewhere. That is fundamental. The work is going elsewhere today while men are being declared redundant in Crewe. It is going to private enterprise and it is increasing the costs and also increasing the deficit. The cheaper that these things can be produced in our own works, the less loss will be made by the Commission at the end of the year.
  Diesel units could be made in Crewe works. Private sources are now employed and I am informed, according to figures given by the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker), that it would be possible to produce in the railway workshops diesel units at two-thirds of the cost of those produced and bought by the Commission from private enterprise. At present, according to my information, private enterprise is behindhand in the supply of units, and this causes waste of time and under-utilisation of the labour available. That is another source of constant loss to the Commission.
  In addition to diesels, the continuous braking gear is being made outside by

  575
  private enterprise. We in Crewe consider that we have the capacity and the skill to make these things inside the workshops. Other equipment goes outside. I am told that private enterprise is behind in the planning and delivery of automatic train control equipment. We ask the Minister to look into these possibilities of using to the full the great workshops at Crewe, which ought to be his pride.
  As a result of the Minister holding back permissions, and not allowing the Commission to know how much it had to spend, and when it could spend it, it is not possible for planning to be carried forward continuously and as early, and in as uniform a manner, as it should be. The diesel units, for instance, were not planned until June this year. That delay was the result of the cuts in the modernisation plan. The units to be built, are, therefore, not coming along in time, and the men are held up in their work. Many of them are being declared redundant.
  There is a consequent loss of productivity in the works. We have heard a great deal about productivity, but if the works are under-employed we do not have the productivity we ought to have. Then there follows these deficits, which we asked to cover by the Bill, instead of the surpluses which should be possible.
  Wagon and carriage construction is going outside the railway workshops. The capital invested is not fully employed, and this leads to further losses. It stands to sense that equipment made outside must cost more. When equipment is made in the railway work-ships, there is no need to make a profit to be added to the cost. Equipment made in the railway workshops, therefore, should be available to the Commission at costs and rates lower than private enterprise can offer.
  The policy of the Government has led to greatly decreased traffic. The effect of this goes on right through the works. There are fewer engines coming in for repair. Seventy-five per cent. of the work done at Crewe is on repairs. In 1957, 28 locomotives a week were coming in for repair. By March, 1958, the figure had gone down to 25, and it has now gone down to 23 a week. As a result, no fewer than 205 fitters have had to be discharged from Crewe works, or reduced
  576
  in status. There is also a reduction in overtime equivalent to the work of another 60 fitters, and piece-rate earnings are down by 10 per cent.
  Skilled men are being put on semiskilled and labouring jobs. Five years ago, when the Crewe works committee was asked to press young men to come into the industry, apprentices came in then, induced to do so by the committee. Now, when they are coming out of their time, they find themselves unable to get jobs in the skilled trade for which they have been training during five years. I am told that 76 of these young men of 21, who hoped to start a career, cannot be found employment at the works.
  There would be less loss of work if the work as a whole were allocated with more foresight. Our great workshops, in which millions of pounds of the Commission's capital is invested, ought really to be run in the most efficient way possible and ought to be used absolutely to the full. I plead with the Minister to ensure that the work of British Railways and of the Commission is done inside these great works. It really is most important that it should be.
  I do not know what the capital value of Crewe works is. Most people know Crewe only as a railway station. Incidentally, one hon. Gentleman was criticising railway sandwiches and hotel services. If anyone cares to stop off at Crewe now, he will see a station very different from the private enterprise Crewe of ten or twenty years ago. There is a magnificent cafeteria, with every modern convenience.
  Mr. Glover: That is part of our modernisation.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: I am not criticising the scheme. I am criticising the hon. Member who suggested that railway sandwiches and accommodation were not good. I can vouch for Crewe, I can vouch for Liverpool, and I think that Euston is showing great progress, too.
  We really ought to allocate the work between workshops so that the staff is used to the full. This year, when 205 fitters were declared redundant at Crewe, 20 of them were offered work at Swindon. Moving to Swindon would mean uprooting the men and their families, and there is no accommodation for them at Swindon. The housing problem there is equal

  577
  to the housing problem at Crewe. I suggest to the Minister that the locomotives could be sent to Crewe for repair instead of the men being sent to Swindon. That would seem to be a sensible arrangement, and I hope that he will look into the possibility.
  I am told that, at Derby, which is going ahead with its modernisation and reorganisation, there is over-employment. Crewe is under-employed. The Minister might well direct some of the work done at Derby to the Crewe works. It is said that Eastleigh is working overtime, but Crewe fitters are being sacked. I suggest that there should be a better allocation of the work, if that is at all possible. I know that the Commission has a difficult task. When I have made representations to the Commission, it has certainly met me and endeavoured to put things right, and I have no doubt that it will look into these matters. It would, perhaps, do it with an even greater urgency if the Minister would assist me in my endeavour to keep this great enterprise of the Crewe works and the capital invested there fully employed. That is the object of the suggestions I make tonight.
  There has been talk of the ability of the railways to carry traffic compared with the ability of road haulage. I was in Crewe last weekend, and I was given this example. For the purpose of electrical work being done in Crewe workshops, many very large drums carrying electric cable were required. These large, valuable drums are brought by road by private enterprise. The empties are left for the railways to carry back. That is typical of the way in which the railways are treated.
  The railways can have the "muck" and the heavy stuff; the goods on which the road hauliers cannot make quick returns and quick profits, but, when there is a difficult or dirty job to be done, people use the railways. The doctrine is, "When there are profits to be made, give it to our friends the road hauliers". That is a typical case in which valuable drums were taken by road and by private enterprise, and the empties were left to the railways to carry back.
  In Crewe, we are feeling the results of the Government's credit squeeze and of their cuts in the capital investment programme. These are the direct acts of
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  the Government. A considerable amount of the deficit being met by the Bill is thus due directly to Government action. That action has led to losses in traffic and to a decrease in employment. Crewe will know where to place the blame for the staff dismissals and the redundancy. It will be placed fairly and squarely upon the shoulders of the Government.
  7.2 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Glover: We have all listened with interest to the hon. and learned Member for Crewe (Mr. Scholefield Allen), and I echo his feeling for the great railway centre of Crewe which, in its history, has probably seen more trains and merchandise pass through its various platforms than any other railway junction.
  Mr. Scholefield Allen: And built more.
  Mr. Glover: I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will forgive me if I do not comment further on his speech except to say that I, too, have an affection for Crewe.
  May I turn to some of the remarks made by the hon. Member for New castle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell)? I hope that I make my remarks in a rather shorter time than he, because, speaking as a fellow back bencher, I thought he was thirty-five minutes late, which was a very bad effort for a railwayman. I thought he should have been on time. During his long oration he appeared to go through many stations without stopping, and because he went on and on the points were completely missed.
  I think that everybody in the House and in the country has built into him an affection for the railways. Our fame and might were built on the best railway system in the world. I am frightened that because we all have this affection in our minds we are still looking at the problem of the railways with minds looking backwards. If I might use an analogy, in 1830 most traffic in this country was pulled by horses, All the human transport was by coach and all the goods traffic was pulled by horses. Today if we ever see a horse on the road it is usually facing backwards, in a trailer being towed by a motor vehicle. We talk about putting the cart before the horse and we now have the cart before the horse, because the horse is nearly

  579
  always in a trailer behind the motor vehicle.
  We have therefore watched the change in the pattern of our transportation, and in our thinking we must not get our facts out of order. We must consider whether a modernisation programme for the railways, on the scale which was envisaged, is wise. In the last few days we have had a debate on coal production, and it was clear from the debate that one of the important reasons for the reduction in the consumption of coal, and therefore in the amount of coal transported by the railways, was the increase in the consumption of oil. There we have an analogy between the railways and a new and more modern system of transport. The need for coal will apparently gradually contract and the production of atomic power and oil will expand and its consumption increase. In my opinion, the same comment applies to the railways.
  This means that we must approach the railway pattern of this country by trying to visualise what it will be like at the end of the century. I do not think it is much use carrying out a modernisation programme which will be out of date as soon as we have finished it, and I have therefore tried, as far as I can, to see what the pattern of transportation in this country is likely to be by the end of the century. I have also tried to tackle the problem as it would exist if the railways were to fight back.
  I think that most people accept that during the next forty years, and perhaps even during the next ten or fifteen years, more and more people, even in this country, will travel by air. Many hon. Members have read an extraordinary article in the Daily Mail this morning about the advent of the Vanguard airliner on the Scottish routes in two years' time. That plane, carrying 135 passengers, will be able to do the trip at a cheaper price than the present second-class rail fare. If that offers quicker, cheaper and cleaner transportation, it will suck traffic on to the airlines. Moreover, in ten or fifteen years' time we may see aircraft with vertical lift and the problem of landing a passenger a long way from his destination will no longer arise. In any event, I am confident that when the passenger reaches the main airport he will be taken very close to his destination by some form of
  580
  helicopter. There will therefore be a tendency for more people to travel by air.
  Let us next consider the motorways. We must face the fact that we are right to build the motorways. I wish that even now the programme were doubled, and I wonder whether we could not transfer some of the capital investment to the road programme. I am sure that we are right in this modern day and age to produce a modern, efficient system of motorways cutting across the country from north to south and from east to west, the length and breadth of Britain. But when we get these motorways, do not let us fool ourselves into thinking that traffic will not be attracted to them. Of course it will. The whole purpose of building them is to provide a more economic and efficient system of getting from A to B. If traffic is to be attracted to them, the tendency will be for less to be attracted to the railways.
  What do we see as the railway pattern? It seems to me that we are fairly certain of being able to maintain an efficient and very much-needed railway system in the future around every conurbation and around the great cities for the vast millions of commuters who wish to use that service every day. It would be rather like London Transport, only round Manchester, Liverpool and every one of the big cities and conurbations.
  Despite the increased competition of air travel, I think that there is a long-term future in this country, with its long narrow shape, for express traffic north to south. I have in mind anything from Manchester and Liverpool northwards. I believe that for such traffic the railways have a tremendous pull even over air transportation. The passenger can have a full meal while on his journey, and he finds it easier to talk to other passengers if he travels by train. At night he can have a sleeper.
  What about merchandise? We must face the fact that an efficient railway system makes its money out of merchandise. I believe my figures are right when I say that at present three-quarters of the railway's revenue is from merchandise and one-quarter from passenger traffic. What will be the merchandise pattern? The hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West told a sad story about the unfair competition from which the railways are suffering because of C licences and other road traffic. People do not

  581
  buy lorries, costing thousands of pounds, and pay drivers at night rates in order to move goods from A to B unless this proves more economical than the railway system. The cost of railway transportation is not the rail journey itself but getting the goods on to the railway, off the railway, into a trunk and to their destination.
  What, in this modernisation programme, are the railways doing to overcome that? My hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson) said that they were overcoming this "disadvantage", as I think he called it, by using containers. The railways will never get the traffic back by using containers. What they could do, and they would then be putting the profit motive in its correct place, would be to provide an efficient system whereby, not at a delay of 24 hours' notice, I could drive a lorry to a goods yards in Manchester, put the lorry on a flat car and go home to bed and have someone pick it up in London the next morning and drive it away. Alternatively, they could arrange for me to be able to drive the lorry on to the flat car, unhook the iron horse, leave the goods on the train, take the iron horse back to its stable and have another iron horse take up the load in London. I may be speaking to the converted. It may be that all this is being done, but, if it is, it is receiving jolly little publicity.
  Mr. D. Jones: The hon. Member talks about a single lorry. Does he appreciate that it would take as much manpower and engine power to bring one truck from Manchester to London as to bring 55? If he could persuade 54 of his friends to do the same thing it would be economic to do it.
  Mr. Glover: The hon. Member's interruption is very helpful. That, of course, is the object of the exercise. If those flat cars could be produced it should not be necessary, in order to get a lorry on to one, for each lorry to be backed up to the ramp and then driven on. Some system of turntable would have to be evolved on which the lorry could be driven at an angle. If that is already being done, it is receiving very little publicity.
  As to the question of modernisation of the railways, many loads which should go by rail go by road because those loads cannot be taken through the tunnels and
  582
  under some of the railway bridges. In the last two years British Railways have done a magnificent job on the electrification of the line from Manchester to Crewe. Every bridge on the line has been raised, but only sufficiently to allow the installation of a cable and not sufficiently to accommodate a furniture van. I should have thought that if British Railways had been looking to the future, this was an opportunity to get over the problem of the loss of so much traffic in recent years to the railways because it must be a nice tidy load if it is to be taken by rail, whereas a very untidy load can be taken by road. If British Railways will look at these two points we shall make progress.
  I know that the closing of branch lines has been discussed before, but I still have not seen any plans to use what I call the rail-car, which would be run on one track of a branch line and not both. The rail-car would travel backwards and forwards on the one line, thereby dispensing with the necessity for signals, except in certain places where there are level crossings.
  I want to make it clear that, provided British Railways produce a rail system that will suck back from the roads. by some such transport arrangement as I have been suggesting, and provided that they narrow the investment programme to the sort of railway system that will be needed at a high state of efficiency for the next forty years, they will have my 100 per cent, enthusiastic support.
  I should like to say a few words about morale. I am sure that I shall become very unpopular with the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West by saying that in 1926, during the General Strike, I was a fireman.
  Mr. Popplewell: Was the hon. Member out on strike?
  Mr. Glover: No, I was a blackleg.
  Mr. Popplewell: Disgraceful. Shame.
  Mr. Glover: Yes, I pulled the fire out at night and lit it in the morning and I greased the engine. In fact, I did the whole shoot.
  Mr. Popplewell: When did the engine break down?
  Mr. Glover: We were on the London and North Eastern Railway and were the

  583
  only ones who never had a breakdown. We were efficient. Anyway, as a result of that experience, I have always had a tremendous affection for British Railways, and I want to talk about morale on the railways. I spend a great deal of time talking to railwaymen, who are a great lot of chaps. People talk about the situation before the war, but it was a great privilege to be employed on the railway system of this country at that time. [An HON. MEMBER: "On low wages."] We want to get back the morale that prevailed then. I am speaking on behalf of the railways. I want more publicity for the job that they are doing. I am mentioning this in the House and I hope that the British Press will take it up.
  About three weks ago in Manchester British Railways did one of the finest jobs of engineering that has been done in this county for a very long time. It had been planned originally to close down London Road Station, the main station for the line between Manchester and London, for three weeks for reconstruction work, but eventually the whole job was done in 48 hours over one weekend. Yet the greatest publicity that that wonderful engineering job had was as a result of one poor chap being killed because a crane collapsed. The job should have had wonderful headlines in the newspapers, such as "British Railways Pull it Off—Great Engineering Feat."
  Mr. D. Jones: They are too modest.
  Mr. Glover: They may be, but that is not how morale is built. One can be too modest. In the Army, if a man wants to build morale he must let the other chap know that he is jolly good and that they will win the battle together. If that is done, one can move mountains.
  Reference has been made to diesel engines. One of the prides of the airlines is that a man or a girl knows that he or she is a "helluva" person in smart uniform. These people strut back and forth on and off duty and are jolly proud to belong to the service. We have in the diesel engine a clean machine on which the job could be done in something like an Air Force uniform. Let the man working on it be given a stripe, or be made a captain, and let him have a peaked cap. Make him proud to belong
  584
  to British Railways. Instead of that, he is compelled to go on driving a clean diesel engine, looking just as he did 30 years ago. If we bring back that pride and we push ahead with the modernisation programme, we shall have once again a railway system which will be the envy of the world, and of which we on both sides of the House can be proud.
  7.20 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Holt: The hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Glover) was a little off his beat in his last remark, because jeans are now extremely fashionable and the railwaymen are wearing more or less the same type of clothing. I should have thought the men were much more comfortable in this style of clothing inside the closed cab of a diesel car than in the rather cold cab of a steam engine; but that is by the way.
  Apart from that, I agreed with a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman said, particularly with his approach to the problem. I thought he let the Minister off rather lightly, but since it is late perhaps he felt that way. I seem to remember that the hon. Gentleman came into the House round about the time that the 1953 Transport Bill became an Act and probably he was in time to help to pass it into law. I cannot believe that when the hon. Gentleman gave the Bill his blessing he visualised that in 1958 there would be a deficit in the region of £85 million. At any rate, I cannot remember that that was one of his arguments for supporting the Bill.
  It is no use the present Government and their supporters trying to brush off the statement that, since this change has been made in the approach to the railway system, all we have done is to accumulate larger and larger deficits, which was the main burden of the speech of the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell). It is no great recommendation for the 1953 Act which I supported and which I considered to be a milestone in railway history, so the Government must really do something about it.
  I was a little surprised to see the Minister on the Front Bench today. I know it is the line of the Tory Party at the moment to brush off their troubles, such as the disastrous policy in Cyprus, the failure of their free trade policy in Europe, and also their railway policy

  585
  which has resulted in a deficit of £85 million in one year about which we must not worry too much. It will not do. As I am one of those who from the beginning have supported in this House the idea of a competitive transport system, with the railways doing the job they can do best arid most efficiently, I am anxious to see that this policy is adequately carried out.
  I was looking up something the Minister said only as far back as July last year in the debate on the Annual Report of the British Transport Commission. Bearing in mind the new modernisation programme, the right hon. Gentleman ended his speech by hoping that this would be a turning point in the history of British Railways. He quoted from the Financial Times as follows:
  "In general, things appear to be going ahead well."
  Then there was an interesting paragraph which was supposed to give his views. He said:
  "That may well be held to be a somewhat optimistic view, and I should like to end by saying that that kind of view can only be realised if all goes well."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th July, 1957; Vol. 573, c. 401.]
  Then there is a whole paragraph of "ifs" —five of them: if modernisation goes according to plan, if the Commission and its suppliers work well together, etc.
  This, I suggest, has been the trouble with the policy over British Railways —a too optimistic look at what can be done without making radical changes in policy. The hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) said earlier that if people want to say that the Chairman of the British Transport Commission should resign, they should say it and not nag him. Frankly, I am astonished that the Chairman of the British Transport Commission has not resigned. After all, he is an Army general, and one of the things we would have hoped from him was that he would be tough, that he would have told the Minister exactly what had to be done if he was expected to make both ends meet, which is what he is expected to do by Act of Parliament. He should have told the Minister that, if he would not allow him to carry out that policy because it would raise a lot of political problems for the branch lines and there would be trouble in the House of Commons. He should have said that this was the only way to do it and that if the Minister
  586
  would not back him up, he would resign. It is because we have not had a clear-cut policy, by which we could know exactly what should be done, that we are in this mess today.
  Hon. Members might have a look at the statement which was first published in HANSARD on 5th November. It was made by the Chairman of the British Transport Commission to the Minister. I agree that this was written at the end of September, so it is more than two months old now. The Chairman was prepared even then to accept that the coal receipts would be down temporarily. This has already been altered by figures given in the debate last week, when it was expected that only 200 million tons of coal would be used next year.
  Within a matter of two months of saying that because we expected the coal receipts to go up and the general economy to improve there was no reason why there should be a radical alteration of the modernisation programme, in
  paragraph 33 of the OFFICIAL REPORT the Minister said:
  "First the Commission want to state that nothing has happened to stultify the appreciation of the future prospects of the railways, as set out in the White Paper of 1956."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th November, 1958; Vol. 594, c. 59.]
  That has already proved to be out of date, and I was extremely glad to hear the Minister at last announce a review of the modernisation scheme and an endeavour to tackle it on a narrower front.
  There are four main points we should air and get agreement about. First we must cut out uneconomic activities. It really is no use hon. Members of the official Opposition talking, as they do, about the public need for a planned transport system. What does this mean'? Are they really trying to achieve the same kind of transport system as would be achieved in a competitive one, because if they are not it implies that they intend to subsidise some part of the transport system, in this case the railways. I want to know who is to pay for this because, as one coming from a cotton town, I am tired of paying for other people's benefits. We have our own difficulties in competing against cheap imports from far away countries, and we are not in a position to subsidise transport for country districts, still less for London.

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  Secondly, I think, and I am glad the Minister agrees, that we require a review of the modernisation scheme in the light of initial experiences and in the light of the present prospects. Now I will say a word about the initial experiences. I was interested when the Minister at last today cited a case where dieselisation has resulted in a line actually producing a surplus. All the information we have had hitherto has been that the use of diesels, either diesel trains or diesel sets, has resulted in increases in revenue and in reductions of losses, but we have not heard previously that it has actually turned a line running at a loss into a profitable one. This is the important thing. I know that the Minister did not say that in so many words. He used the word "surplus". I should be interested to know whether that will cover all overheads.
  Mr. D. Jones: What the Minister was saying was that the result of bringing diesel trains into the service between Middlesbrough and Newcastle was to reduce manpower, because one could get more mileage per day out of a single set of diesels than one could get from steam. That is all there is in it. The railway has never been running at a loss. The service has been run at a loss.
  Mr. Holt: I am not clearer for that intervention.
  In Cmd. 9880, Proposals for the Railways, there is a list of services which have been modernised and where there has been an introduction of diesel multiple unit vehicles. That Report speaks of increases in receipts, some of 100 per cent. and some of 44 per cent. However, it does not give a clue about whether the services have been remotely economical. In paragraph 53 of that White Paper there is a sentence:
  "They will reduce operating costs substantially and bring in additional business".
  The next paragraph says:
  "These cars are attracting substantial additional business."
  As yet there is no suggestion that the use of diesel sets will result in turning an unprofitable into a profitable line.
  That is the crux of the matter, because we cannot continue to run uneconomic lines. If the imagination of the Commission is now exhausted, and if it has
  588
  tried everything and still cannot run the line at a profit, there is no alternative but to close the line.
  Mr. Lindgren: Here is a service in a rural area available for the transport of agricultural produce and agricultural workers. It has not and cannot run at a profit. Does the hon. Member say that that part of the service should be cut off, irrespective of the fact that to do so would deprive the people in the area of the means of earning a living and would reduce the availability of farm produce?
  Mr. Holt: Right out, because the hon. Member is asking me in Bolton to pay for that service.
  Mr. Lindgren: What about food?
  Mr. Holt: I would have a row of beans and keep some hens in my garden. The hon. Member is asking me to pay for that unprofitable line. I refuse, and he cannot make me, nor the other 165,000 people in Bolton, pay for that line. We have to live in a town which is now full of fog and soot and dirt. People living in the country can enjoy all the delights of the fresh air.
  Mr. Lindgren: And unemployment?
  Mr. Holt: Fortunately, not very much yet, but enough. We have our own problem, and I see no reason why we should have to compete with Hong Kong—I do not complain about that—and at the same time subsidise the transport of country districts. It is not on.
  I do not accept the proposition that if we refuse to subsidise these lines there will be no transport in country districts. That idea comes about because the transport problem is being badly handled. For instance, I go to Anglesey for my holidays. I do not want to see such a place denuded. It is a delightful place for a holiday, and no doubt it is a delightful place in which to reside throughout the year.
  One thing required in Anglesey and on the North Welsh coast is a motorway. If there were a motorway from Chester to Holyhead, there would be a backbone of as fine a transport system as one could get. Suitable roads from it would provide holiday resorts and similar places with a far better transport system than they have now. However, if we merely try to modernise out-of-date lines by

  589
  using odd diesel cars here and there, we will still fail to provide the transport system which is required and, in any case, that will not help places without stations, while the service will not pay at the places where there are stations.
  Mr. D. Jones: But the people in Bolton pay taxation for the roads. Apparently, they should not pay for the railways. That is just like Liberal philosophy.
  Mr. Holt: The hon. Member should not raise that old hoary argument. The motorist pays in taxation far more towards the cost of roads than is used by the Government in building roads and in keeping them in repair.
  Mr. Lindgren: Does the hon. Member suggest that Anglesey should stand on its own in the provision of motorways and not be helped by the taxpayers of Bolton and London? In that case, would the people of Anglesey have any roads?
  Mr. Holt: We will not get on to that. That is another old hoary argument. It is suggested that because the Post Office runs on a unified paying system that system should be applied to railways. That is another argument, but not one with which I wish to deal now. A road system can be produced only with taxation, but the people who use the roads in Anglesey come from Bolton and other places as well as Anglesey. However, we are straying from the argument which I wanted to develop.
  On the subject of the costs of different forms of transport, we cannot do better than to study some of the figures given in the Report of the Commission for the year ending December, 1950. Some figures are given in diagram No. 12 on page 71, showing the costs of different forms of transport. Main line transport costs in that year for expresses were about one-third of a penny per passenger mile. At that time, a third-class fare from London to Manchester showed about 500 per cent. profit.
  That is probably still the answer to aircraft operators who think that the proposed new service between London and Edinburgh may knock express trains for six. It will do so if the main line expresses have to carry uneconomic services in other parts of the country, but if the railways are allowed to compete by bringing down fares on main lines which
  590
  run at a handsome profit, they will be able to compete with other transport systems, certainly for a while. How long that state of affairs will continue will depend on the speed of the development of the motorway system, but that is another matter.
  The average cost of a typical passenger service across country was 2¾d. a mile. The nigger in the woodpile was the branch line services costing 2s. l½d. per passenger mile, while the stopping services on the main line cost 13¾d. per passenger mile. Let us compare those fares with the road services being offered at the time. These figures are still relevant, although a certain amount has to be added for increased costs and inflation. Long-distance coach services were running at a cost of passenger mile. They were more expensive than the main line expresses. The inter-city services of main line double-decker buses were running at two-thirds of 1d. per mile, the country service mixed fleet at 1⅛d per mile, and the urban service single-decker buses at 1⅔d. per mile. In view of those figures it is ridiculous to continue the stopping services on main lines and any branch line services except in a few special cases.
  As I said in reply to an earlier interjection, railway stations do not exist in every small village or market town, and these can be properly served only by decent bus services, with the help of an improved road service. All our capital development in country districts should be going into that, and nothing into the railways.
  In the review of the modernisation programme which is now to be undertaken by the Commission, it must see that no more capital expenditure is undertaken merely to reduce a loss, but only if it will change a loss into a profit, thereby showing a proper return on the capital expenditure. If we are losing £500 a year on a certain line and that loss is reduced to £400 a year we are still not making a profit. In future we must spend no more money on capital development merely to reduce a loss from £500 to £300, or £200. We must undertake capital development only if it will cut out loss completely and change the undertaking concerned into a profitable one.
  As transport arrangements develop in future it is unlikely that things will

  591
  become any easier for the railways. If anything, our forecast for the railways should be of a pessimistic nature. They are not likely to get a larger proportion of any increased use of transport, whether passenger or freight. On the whole, they will probably have a smaller proportion of the work. But even on the most pessimistic outlook there is still a big job for them to do, and they can do it at a profit. If radical changes are made there is no reason why they should not ultimately comply with the Statute of 1947 and make both ends meet. Whether they will ever be able to do that and wipe off this deficit is another matter.
  7.44 p.m.
  Sir Spencer Summers: If I had to choose between the Socialists, who would make the test one of public convenience, and the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt), who approaches the question from the angle of profitability, I should undoubtedly choose the latter. Nevertheless, I look with some alarm at what would happen if the Government were to take the hon. Member's advice and close down all the rural railway facilities, prevent the long-distance trains from stopping, except at main centres, and cut out all facilities unless they were capable of being run at a profit within a short time. As I want to deal with only a limited aspect of the Commission's affairs, however, I shall not take up any more time in dealing with the speech of the hon. Member for Bolton.
  I want to deal with the question of inland waterways. which was the subject of the Bowes Committee's Report, published in July of this year, after the Committee had been examining the question for two and a half years. Although I hope that there will be another opportunity to deal with the main practical recommendations contained in the Report, there is one aspect which is particularly relevant to administration and ownership with which I want to deal now.
  I would remind hon. Members that the members of the Committee were unanimous in their practical recommendations but completely and evenly divided on the question of administration and ownership. Half the Committee of eight members was in favour of separating from
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  the Commission responsibility for the Class A, B and C canals, while the other half preferred to leave them under the aegis of the Commission.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: In fairness, the hon. Member should state that the Chairman was on the side of leaving the waterways with the Commission.
  Sir S. Summers: Whether or not the hon. Member thinks that the views of the Chairman are more important than those of the other seven members I do not know, but the fact that no less than half the Committee took a certain line warrants a study of the matter by hon. Members. I am quite clear that the wiser of the two recommendations made was that which advocated separation from the Commission, and I commend that idea to my right hon. Friend for his study. In doing so I should like him to note that I shall do my best to express views which many hon. Friends of mine have formed as a result of their inquiries into this matter.
  The public tend to regard our canals as another carrying device open to the Commission as an alternative to rail or road, In fact, the management of the canals is far more of an engineering than a carrying job. In support of that view I want to quote two brief extracts from the Report. They are to be found on pages 83 and 85. The first one, which is Recommendation (3), says:
  "The British Transport Commission were created by statute as a transport authority: they are predominantly carriers on a very big scale. Not only are their waterways a minute part of their undertaking, but within the Waterways Division the carrying operations are a trivial element."
  In Recommendation (11), after contrasting the engineering aspects of waterway administration with that of the normal type of carrier—the roads and railways—the Committee states:
  "But for the waterways, construction, maintenance and management for navigation and other uses is a substantial engineering business in its own right, while redevelopment is a planning and land agency business."
  What I am seeking to bring out in the first instance is that this task is quite unlike that which normally falls to be discharged by the Commission. If I am right in saying that we should pause to reflect who will provide the subsidy for the inland waterways. The Report makes it clear that the inland waterways have never paid and that they have never had

  593
  their costs made up from other sections of the Commission.
  Reference has been made, rather loosely, to the public having to pay. In fact, it is the travelling public which has been paying for the losses on the canals. Were the responsibility for these canals removed from the Commission and dealt with quite separately, it would not be the travelling public which would meet such subsidy as is inevitable—so we are advised—but the general public, in other words, the taxpayers. I think that an important distinction which should be made.
  This section of its undertaking, different as it is from the normal task discharged by the Commission, must in the long run suffer if its is dependent upon the benevolence of the British Transport Commission. When one notes that the carrying fleet of the Commission on inland waterways is 41,000 tons and compares that with the carrying fleet of 16 million tons on the railways proper, one is quickly seized of the fact that a very small part of the normal carrying task is represented by operations on the canals.
  Mr. Lindgren: The hon. Member has referred to the tonnage capacity owned by the Commission. He will be aware that privately-owned carrying capacity on the canals is considerably more and that has been carried on since nationalisation.
  Sir S. Summers: That is true and I am not disputing the fact. I said that that part of the Commission's carrying fleet is trifling when compared with its carrying capacity on land. I made no reference to the comparison between the capacity of the Commission and that of private enterprise operating on the canals.
  I am not suggesting that because the canals have been under its control all this time the Commission has deliberately allowed a possible competitor to the railways to depreciate. But it is not without significance that the Bowes Committee states that
  "the canals have long been a decaying monument to unfulfilled statutory duties."
  That is not a very good advertisement for allowing such responsibility to continue.
  In the Bowes Committee's Report it is made quite plain that provided the Class A canals are not given a share of the capital to service which it may be argued that they should receive, those types
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  of canals should be capable of providing enough surplus to maintain their own waterways. It has equally been made clear that the Class B waterways can never be expected to earn a surplus sufficient to maintain their own waterways. Indeed, it is almost inevitable that they will make a loss, and that a subsidy will be called for. I should have thought it more satisfactory from the point of view of everyone were those canals made a separate undertaking, so that the public could see precisely what was the amount of such a subsidy, rather than that it should be obscured by being part and parcel of the Commission's figures.
  My right hon. Friend expressed his determination that there should be no subsidy paid to the Commission. If that be so, I do not see that he can do other than support my suggestion for separating from it one of the sections of the undertaking which inevitably will have to receive a subsidy, as is made clear by the Report of the Bowes Committee. I hope also that I may have support from hon. Members opposite for this suggestion. If, as we heard earlier, they regret that the Commission should have profitable sections of business taken from it, the implication is that hon. Members opposite would welcome the removal of unprofitable sections of the Commission's undertaking. If the removal of profitable sections makes the task of the Commission more difficult, the removal of unprofitable sections would make that task easier, and so I look forward to the support of hon. Members opposite.
  It is my opinion that were the canals separated from the Commission, there would be a much better prospect of attracting fresh sources of revenue for the inland waterways than if they remain part and parcel of a railway system which from time to time comes under public criticism. There is, in my opinion, great scope for increasing the revenue to be derived from fishing interests in this country. There is a large number of people whose hobby is fishing in the canals. The hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) is a notable figure among such people and I wish him luck in that regard. I should have thought that many who are keen on that form of sport would be willing to pay a modest sum annually for the right to fish anywhere on the waters operated by an independent organisation.

  595
  Reference is made to the "re-development" of the Class C waterways. That is rather a strange word but perhaps it is used for want of a better. There is a tendency to underestimate the great complications inherent in the task of solving all the legal obligations and rights associated with them. That task may well take a long time. The operation of these canals is again completely unrelated to any of the normal functions of the Commission.
  One of the points made by that section of the Bowes Committee, which included the Chairman, and which was against separation, was that it would be more expensive to the operators of the canals were they separated, because no longer would there be access to such services provided by the Commission as the legal service, and maybe the establishments branch, and so on. On the other hand, the section of the Committee in favour of separation believed that it would be cheaper were the canals to stand on their own as a separate organisation with its own services as and when they were needed. I do not think there is much force in the argument that the canals would suffer in this way by being separated from the Commission.
  There are three points in the recommendations which I support to which I wish to refer, and about which I am by no means happy, although I am fully convinced that the canals should be separated from the Commission. It is suggested that were an independent waterways corporation set up, it should take over the carrying functions on water from the Commission. Were it thought better to do so, I do not see why the Commission should not continue to be responsible for carrying, even though the waterways belonged to a separate organisation. It does not necessarily follow that if we remove the waterways from the control of the Commission, automatically we have also to remove the carrying functions now carried out by the Commission.
  It is assumed in the Bowers Report that were a separate corporation established it would, as it were, be responsible to, or at any rate its members would be appointed by, the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation. As it is inevitable
  596
  that there would be a close connection with local authorities, might not it be better if it were responsible to the Minister of Housing and Local Government rather than the Minister of Transport? I do not feel qualified to pronounce on that point, but I ask that it be noted in case other aspects of this responsibility become even more important than they would appear at first sight.
  I am not at all sure that it is right to think in terms of separating these canals from the Commission without taking from them a corresponding amount of stock which would of course have to be serviced. It is said that the B canals will have to have a subsidy, and that such subsidy would have to be greater if the waterways were separated and the servicing of the stock had also to be undertaken. At the same time it seems hard on the Commission to take away some of its assets and to leave intact all the servicing of the capital. I hope that further thought will be given to that aspect of the recommendations.
  I am sure many people are anxious that action should follow the publication of this Report. Precisely because the constitutional, administrative and ownership aspect must to a large extent govern how that action is taken, I felt it not out of place to ventilate this topic in this debate. I am sure that many will welcome it if the Government can give an assurance, as recommended in this Report, that there will be twenty-five years of assured future for these canals which are regarded as viable in themselves. It would give confidence to those who build fleets and use them if they knew that that amount of support for the main plan of the Report was forthcoming.
  I have no doubt that detailed legislation will be required to do justice to this task. I am equally sure that we shall be told that there is no time for more legislation in this Session. If it is as complicated as most of us think it will be, I see no reason why instructions should not be given for legislation to be drafted which, in twelve months' time or more, could be brought before this House. There will have to be consultations with local authorities and others, but if the Government could announce their intention that when the legislation is ready there will be separation of these canals from the

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  Commission all the planning could be done. I see no reason why in the meantime the Commission should not be regarded as caretakers for the waterways until that legislation is completed and the separation proposed in the Report becomes a practical proposition.
  I do not expect the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to comment on this at any length, or indeed at all, when he replies to the debate, but I hope he will do me and my hon. Friends the courtesy of studying what I have had to say and advise us in due course whether we have influenced him in the way we would wish.
  8.4 p.m.
  Mr. David Jones: I hope that the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Summers) will forgive me not following him into the ramifications of the British canal system, except to say two things. First, if the railway historians of the last fifty or sixty years are to be believed, the private enterprisers in railways bought up the majority of the canals primarily for the purpose of letting them fall into disuse so that they should not compete with the then developing railways.
  Every historian who has written about the railways points to the fact that one of the first things that were done—the Great Western Railway was no exception—was to take over the canals and let them decay. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) has said, it was a poor bag of assets which the British Transport Commission received when it took over the canals on 1st January, 1948.
  Sir S. Summers: Does the hon. Member realise that reference to history supports my proposition that the canals should be separated from the rest of the undertakings?
  Mr. Jones: I am not prepared to quarrel with the hon. Member now, except to say that if the canals are to be developed for social and community purposes that ought to be the responsibility of a body other than the Transport Commission. I do not believe that the Commission ought to be saddled with the responsibility of making provision for fishing or for sailing on the canals for pleasure.
  598
  The Commission is a commercial concern and ought to confine itself to commercial work. In the meantime, coal, sand, ballast gravel and other things can be carried at a slower speed on the canals than on the roads or railways. I believe that it would be far better, in many instances, for that to be done than to clutter up the highways with 5-ton lorries. The canals could be used, and ought to be used, to convey that traffic. If they are to be used for that function, I do not think that they ought to be competitive with but complementary to the main railway transport arteries of the country. Beyond that, I do not quarrel with anything that the hon. Member said.
  In listening to the Minister introducing the Bill it seemed to me that history never teaches him a lesson.
  Mr. John Hynd: He does not know any history. That is the trouble.
  Mr. Jones: In 1956, when the right hon. Gentleman introduced the Railway (Finances) Bill, some of us suggested, on 3rd December of that year, that, having regard to the circumstances then prevailing, the £250 million would not be sufficient. I remember the Minister telling us then that he was proposing to introduce the best parts of private enterprise into this nationalised system, to make it a success. Was it his idea of success when he was making those statements that the kind of services he was injecting into the system would find the Commission in 1958 with a deficit of £85 million?
  I remember suggesting, in 1955, when the present Minister of Pensions and National Insurance was in charge of the Transport (Borrowing Powers) Bill, that as a result of the way in which the position was developing the deficit of the Commission would, in a short time, be about £200 million. If we take the £70 million which was not in the Transport (Borrowing Powers) Bill, and the £85 million anticipated for this year, the total figure by the end of 1958 will be about £280 million. All of it has to be serviced by interest. Yet, on three separate occasions, there has been deliberate interference by the Government in the business of the Commission of earning its keep.
  The Minister cannot have it both ways. In his letter to the Chairman of the

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  Transport Commission, as stated in the second paragraph on page 15 of the White Paper, he said:
  "In the Government's view it would be reasonable to assume that the present phase in the economy is temporary and that a future expansion of economic activity is to be expected."
  Does the right hon. Gentleman really believe that or not? Does he really believe that the economy of the country will recover—and reading the debate on the coal industry in the House a week or so ago does not lead one to be very optimistic about it—to such an extent that we shall require a railway system somewhat similar in size to the system that we have at present? The right hon. Gentleman has told us this afternoon that although the Commission has already stated that it proposes, in 1959, to make economies amounting to £20 million, he has suggested that that process should be speeded up to the extent of £30 million.
  If the correspondence in Cmd. Paper 585 is read carefully, it will be found that in paragraph 14 the Chairman of the Commission has already said that about £6 million of the wages claim made earlier in this year is already to be met by savings to be made in administration, although, when Cmd. Paper 9880, "Proposals for the Railways," was put forward, we were told there, in paragraphs 34 and 47, that the net effect over the interim period of the modernisation of the railway system would be to save approximately £3 million at the end of six years. One therefore assumes that the Commission is already in the process of saving that £3 million which was envisaged in paragraph 59 on pages 21 and 22 of Cmd. Paper 9880.
  In paragraph 14 of the White Paper, dealing with the correspondence between the Minister of Transport and the Chairman of the Commission, the Commission has there said that it is to save £6 million of the £10 million which the wages claim is estimated to cost by administrative action, which, I presume, means savings mainly on staff. If we follow out the correspondence further, we find that in paragraph 35, the Chairman of the Commission says, in sub-paragraph (a):
  "I can go no further than say that we shall take as our target a reduction of £20m. per annum in addition to economies already in operation, which would yield several millions of pounds more in 1959 than in 1958."
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  If that paragraph means anything at all, it means that the Commission has already made savings to the extent of £9 million a year, and that it anticipates making another £20 million savings during 1959, making a total of £29 million. Then we have the Minister of Transport saying that he is pressing the Commission to make a further reduction of £10 million. I suggest to the House that this reduction can only be made by substantially contracting the existing railway system.
  If, therefore, the Minister is right when he says that this recession in traffic is temporary, does it not mean that if we return to the degree of productivity which we reasonably believe ought to be achieved, we shall find ourselves with production which cannot be carried by the railways, because the staff will have been dispersed to the four corners of the country and will not be available for the job?
  If, in those circumstances, that kind of thing is done, the House ought to be told quite frankly what the Minister means. Does he mean that he does not really expect the economy of the country to increase to such an extent as to restore to the Transport Commission the freight charges which it has lost by this contraction over the present year? We ought to be told quite frankly what exactly the Minister does mean.
  I noticed that the Minister, in one of the taunting moments which he favours at that Box, suggested to the Opposition that we ought to tell him what the Opposition's policy is on C licences. I suggest that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, in replying, ought to tell us what the Government's policy is for a start. When, after the next General Election, my right hon. and hon. Friends occupy the Front Bench opposite, we shall be perfectly happy to tell the House and the country at the earliest possible moment what we shall do about C licences.
  In the meantime, I would call attention to the fact that in 1948 and 1949 the parrot cry from the hon. Members opposite, when they were on these benches, was that the number of C licence vehicles was increasing because businessmen did not like nationalisation, that they did not like a Labour Government. We had the evidence from the Minister of Transport

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  this afternoon that the number of C licence vehicles has increased by more than 750,000 and that the bulk of them are more than 2½ tons unladen weight.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: No, less than 2½ tons.
  Mr. Jones: No. There has been an increase in the total number of C licence vehicles to nearly 1,100,000, and the greater proportion of them since 1951 have been vehicles of 2½ tons unladen weight and over than vehicles of 2½ tons and less—quite a reversal of the situation in the years preceding 1950 and 1951, when the bulk of the extension of C licences related to the smaller vehicles— the milk vans, the butcher's lorry, and so forth. Therefore, the increase in the number of C licence vehicles of 2½ tons unladen weight and over has been by a bigger proportion during the tenure of office of a Conservative Government than ever before.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke Mr. Gresham Cooke rose—
  Mr. Jones: I am sorry, but I cannot give way.
  I want to turn to some of the matters dealt with by the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton). [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"] Well, he made his speech, and he has gone.
  The hon. Member for Yeovil also had something to say about C licences, and he sought to prove that the recession in this country was due in the main to the world recession. Even if it were true, and I do not accept the theory that the recession in heavy industries in this country has been due to a world recession, I would say that it has been due as much to the policy pursued by a Conservative Government as it has to any other single cause. We know what happened, deliberately, during the closing months of the year; indeed, we had a famous resignation in December, 1957, as a consequence. We know that the policy of the credit squeeze pursued by the Conservative Party then had as much responsibility for the recession in trade as any other cause. The Government cannot now ride away on the fact that the Transport Commission finds itself in its present circumstances other than as a direct consequence of the policy pursued by the Government, of which the Minister of Transport is a member.
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  My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Crewe (Mr. Scholefield Allen) raised the question of unemployment in the Commission's workshops. He complained, rightly, that large orders are being placed with private firms, whereas many men are being dismissed from various railway workshops throughout the country. Large numbers of them are skilled men. They are middle-aged and approaching old age. Many will not be able to seek employment in other industries.
  It is true that towards the end of 1956 the Chairman of the Transport Commission stated that it was the Commission's policy at that time to maintain full employment and to keep a full order book within the railway workshops. We now understand, however, that as the result of circumstances over which the Commission claims it has no control— the intervention of unseen factors beyond the Commission's control, involving cuts in capital and revenue expenditure, and a slowing down of industrial activity—the whole position has changed.
  In other words, the responsibility for the unemployment in the railway industry and for the dismissals from the railway workshops lies directly at the door of the Minister of Transport, who cut the capital expenditure available to the railways in 1957 and 1958. I know that he restored it in May, 1958, but he cut it in 1957. As a result, the railways were not able to undertake in their workshops anything like the work that was put out to private firms.
  The reason. I suspect, is that orders have already been placed in the outside shops for large quantities of equipment and that despite the cut in capital expenditure imposed upon it by the Minister, the Commission was unable to cancel any of its orders to the private firms. All the burden of the reduced capital expenditure had to be borne by the railway workshops. That is the consequence of the action taken by the Minister in October last year. However he might try now to shuffle off his responsibility for disorganising production and delaying the implementation of the modernisation plan, the blame must rest fairly and squarely on the right hon. Gentleman's shoulders.
  We shall not, of course, oppose the Bill. If, however, the Minister had been more prone to accept advice from other people, and if he was not so fond of

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  attacking the trade unions as he did in a speech to his constituents at Woking, reported in the Sunday Times of 7th September, he might possibly get more co-operation from the unions than he can expect.
  Mr. Watkinson: Perhaps the hon. Member will be kind enough to read out any words I used attacking the trade unions.
  Mr. Jones: Certainly. I quote:
  "Mr. Watkinson, Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, speaking to his constituents at Woking, Surrey, yesterday said that trade union movement leaders appeared to wish to live in the past. 'Their desire to revive long-out-moded political controversies may be their way of escaping the hard realities of the present; it is a singularly unfortunate approach for an industrial nation like ours…'"
  Does the Minister expect to get the cooperation of trade union leaders when he uses that kind of language? If so, he is living in a bigger fool's paradise than even I gave him credit for.
  The right hon. Gentleman must remember that there are two sides to this industry and that without the cooperation of both sides, success is impossible. It is no use his coming to the House and using honey words to the trade union leaders and to the Commission when, in the speech to which my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield. East (Mr. Ernest Davies) has referred, he says at Dorking, as reported on 8th November:
  "Let me make it plain that I am in no sense attacking or criticising those who work in or control these industries. I believe that the men who work in these industries, and perhaps some of their leaders, too, if they felt free to speak, would also say what a failure nationalisation, as a method of running great industries has been."
  Mr. Watkinson: Hear, hear
  Mr. Jones: If the Minister believed that, why did he not take his courage in both hands and denationalise the industry? He cannot have it both ways. Either he should introduce a Bill to denationalise the railways, or he should resign because he has failed.
  8.26 p.m.
  Mr. John Howard: I am not proposing to follow the hon. Member for The Hartlepools (Mr. D. Jones), for the simple reason that I want to make an entirely distinct point about
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  the position of coastal shipping. I do not propose to detain the House for many minutes. My right hon. Friend the Minister referred briefly in his opening speech to the position of coastal shipping. He will recall that during the Committee stage of the Transport (Railway Finances) Act, 1957, he said, in effect, that the loans given under that Act were to tide over the Commission in difficulties connected with the railway side and were not to be used to undercut coastwise shipping rates. My right hon. Friend said at the same time that there was a clear undertaking from the Chairman of the Transport Commission and that that undertaking gave adequate protection to the coastal shipping industry.
  I hope that tonight my right hon. Friend will give similar assurances about the substantially increased facilities which are to be given by this new Bill. I particularly hope that he will be able to do so, because the Bill not only increases the amount which may be provided from the Exchequer to meet the deficiency on the railway revenue account for the six years 1956 to 1962, but it also authorises an increase in the ordinary borrowing powers of the Commission.
  At present, coastal shipping carries 36 million tons of dry cargo every year. In addition, it carries a considerable quantity of oil, for which, unfortunately, no figures are available. In the case of dry cargo, expressed in ton miles, the contribution which coastal shipping is making to the carrying capacity of the whole of the internal transport system is the equivalent of about one-third of the tonnage miles carried on the railway system.
  The House will agree that this is a considerable contribution, and it is also important to remember that coastwise shipping is a valuable alternative form of transport, and has strategic merits in a national emergency. Coastal shipping costs the Government nothing. It operates in active competition, not only with rail and road transport but also with ships of other flags, particularly the Dutch motor ships, which have—quite correctly—the full right to compete in the coastwise trade.
  With that in mind, it is disconcerting to look at the number of vessels now engaged in the trade. The number, regrettably, is diminishing. In June, 1952, there were 930 vessels, but in June, 1957.

  605
  there were only 803. The deadweight tonnage was 1,113,000 tons in 1952, against only 1,083,000 tons in 1957. I do not propose to inflict the pre-war figures on the House, but that comparison would show an even greater diminution in vessels and tonnage.
  If this trend continues, it must be a cause of concern, because it is clearly the numbers of the smaller vessels that are diminishing, and they are particularly valuable as a strategic reserve in a national emergency. Parliament has already recognised the importance of coastwise shipping by setting up, under the Transport Act, 1947, a coastal shipping advisory committee. The object of that committee is to give such advice to the Minister as will secure an efficient coastal shipping service and to see that it is maintained to the extent necessary for the national interest.
  I am also anxious about the Commission's intentions with regard to its steamer services, particularly where those are operated in competition with independent shipowners, such as on the Irish cross-Channel run, and in the near-Continental trade. To what extent does the Commission intend to use its borrowing powers to strengthen its steamer services in areas where private capital is already available for any expansion required?
  In particular, does it intend so to increase the number of its vehicle-carrying ferry ships as to enable them to compete with such privately-operated ferries as the Townsend ferry service between Dover and Calais, or—and this is nearer to my constituency—the private-enterprise ferry service running between Southampton and Cowes?
  The Red Funnel Steamers of Southampton have only within the last two weeks launched a new "roll on roll off" ferry. The capital has been provided by the company, and it is quite clear that the service is meeting a need. I hope that there is no intention of diverting any public capital to provide competition where private enterprise has provided a much-needed service for the transportation of private cars, commercial vehicles and passengers.
  I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister to give an absolute assurance that, by this Bill, the Commission's ship services will not be covered by the increased borrowing powers it seeks.
  8.34 p.m.
  Mr. G. Lindgren: I should like to bring the House back to what I believe to be the fundamentals of transport. Transport is a service. Listening to hon. Members opposite—and I was about to say something that I should not about the speech of the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt)—one would think that we could deal with it on an industrial basis just as if we were manufacturers making bolts and nuts or boots and shoes.
  If the industry is a service, as I think it is, the function of which is to move goods and persons from place to place with speed and safety at the lowest possible cost, we ought to look at it from the point of view of how best we can render that service to industry and to the population. We ought to be considering how we can move these goods and persons by the most economic and efficient means.
  Before I entered this House, in common with a number of hon. Members on this side. I earned my living as a railwayman. It is remarkable that every speaker from this side of the House has had some knowledge of the subject that we have been talking about. All that we have had from the other side is airy-fairy nonsense from persons who are supposed to have had educational opportunities and to possess business acumen, but on the subject of transport that does not seem to have gone very far.
  The fundamentals of transport are the same whether one is dealing with road, rail, sea or air. Its main purpose is the moving of goods and persons by the best possible means. Although I have been a railwayman, I am not so foolish as to say that there is not a considerable amount of traffic which should go by road, and it is equally true that the air services are now obviously a competitor for transport over long distances, such as from London to Glasgow. If we are to move people from place to place by the most effective, efficient and economic means, we can only do that by an integrated service. We have to weigh up which is the most suitable vehicle available for the transport of the goods. etc., to be carried.
  The problem of transport, particularly in regard to the railways, has been deliberately created by the Government.

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  They started it, as has been said before, by taking away the road section of transport in which the greatest profit was likely to arise. I cannot understand the Liberal idea that because there are only a few people in the Island of Shetland or in a remote part of Wales we cannot provide them with a service unless that particular little locality can carry the full cost of the service. That was the philosophy put to the House by the hon. Member for Bolton, West. The obvious thing in transport is to use all the services necessary and where there is a possibility, as there is bound to be in certain cases, of carrying goods and persons with a greater degree of profit than in other cases, those cases should be balanced.
  We are dealing today with the problem of the railways, which arises very largely because of the denationalisation of road transport, as a result of which the cream of the traffic, easy handling and the highest freight rates go automatically to the road hauliers, leaving the railways as common carriers of the traffic which has lower freight rates, is difficult to handle and has no possibility of making a profit. When the two were brought together under the 1947 Act there was the possibility of breaking even.
  The Minister talked a lot of nonsense this afternoon about the railways and appealing to railwaymen. May I say as a railwayman and an official of a railway trade union that the railwaymen have not the slightest confidence in him as Minister of Transport. They very much resent his attitude towards the railways and towards the present Chairman of the British Transport Commission. I was concerned as a voluntary trade union official with the wage negotiations last May, when the Chairman of the British Transport Commission then had to say, "Well gentlemen. I have gone as far as I can go. We shall have to adjourn this meeting in order that I may consult somewhere else." That was almost treating the Chairman of the Commission as an office boy rather than as an official carrying the responsibility of Chairman of the B.T.C.
  The Minister spoke today about a lot of things which he knows are not likely to be realised. As railway trade unions, we told him during the early stages of the modernisation programme that under the
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  present administration it would be impossible to break even by 1962. With all the facilities which are now being granted to the railways for modernisation—as railwaymen, we are glad that these facilities are being given—it may be possible to bring the railways to a higher standard of efficiency, but that alone will not enable them to break even. Can we allow traffic to be carried by private operators under C licences in the way that it is? I make no bones about it. We cannot develop the railways to the point at which they are likely to break even unless we restrict C licences.
  I will remind the Minister of what is happening today. A private industrialist, for example, operates a fleet of five or six lorries. There are times—Christmas time is an instance—when he has a surplus of goods which he cannot carry in his own vehicles. He then says to the railways, "I have here a surplus of traffic. I have promised to deliver it in two days' time. Come and collect it and deliver it". British industrialists and manufacturers operating with C licences expect our transport system, with all the capital involved, the track, signal boxes, stations, goods yards, marshalling yards, wagons and all the rest, to be available at their beck and call, to be made use of like an old coat taken from behind the door, as and when they wish.
  The Minister said that it was his pride that the railways were able to run in fog and could carry passengers that the airlines could not carry because they could not operate in such conditions from the airports. If the railways are to be maintained in order to meet emergencies caused by fog, heavy traffic and the like, and we expect them to carry all the capital costs, how can they ever be a paying proposition? If, on the one hand, we are to operate our transport system, and if we wish it to have the capital necessary to revive it and bring it to a high level of efficiency, we must, on the other hand, ensure that the amount of traffic is sufficient to enable it to meet its costs.
  The railways cannot operate on the basis of just being there to pick up and carry anything that other people do not want. Although the Minister spoke about greater freedom of charges, there is still only regional freedom. There is not

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  really national freedom in charges. Moreover, as I have said, the railways will not have the necessary amount of traffic unless the operations of C licence holders are restricted.
  The railways are still common carriers. Is the position not fantastic? Manufacturers and even road hauliers can work and operate and then, when they have traffic which they do not want: to carry, because it is difficult or unclean to handle, they can say to the railways, "We do not want to take this. You must come along and take it". If the railways are to operate satisfactorily, it must be done on some other basis.
  Mr. Cole: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to misrepresent the point which my right hon. Friend made about the carriage of air passengers. This was a case where the passengers could not travel by air because of fog. If one wants to give a service to the public, surely, one must take them by another means.
  Mr. Lindgren: I agree. I have said that one ought to carry the goods and passengers by the best available means, but we cannot expect the railway system to be operated on a basis of being used only as and when it is required.
  Mr. Popplewell: On a foggy day.
  Mr. Cole: Does the hon. Member for Wellingborough mean that these passengers should not be carried?
  Mr. Lindgren: I agree that they should be carried. Part of the function of the railways is to be an alternative system, but the Minister, hon. Members opposite and, in particular, the hon. Member for Bolton, West say that every functional operation must show a profit. There is a national value to be placed upon a railway system, too. There was much discussion last night about the foolhardy escapade of the Government at Suez which brought this country to the verge of ruin.
  Mr. Watkinson: It brought disgrace to the hon. Member's party.
  Mr. Lindgren: The country will take a different view. The Government would have been in a sorry state had they not been able to transfer traffic from road to rail in an emergency. If it is all right
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  to have concentration centres for goods and to carry goods long distance by rail in a time of crisis, such as that created by the Government over Suez. should we not also realise that the service must be paid for if we are to have it available for such times?
  Mr. Donald Wade: How is it to be paid for?
  Mr. Lindgren: There are two ways of paying for it. First, we as railwaymen could make a profitable job of the railways if we carried only those goods and persons whose carriage showed a profit to us. If we cut out all the dead weight we could show a profit. The first people to shout in that event would be manufacturers and hon. Members opposite. If the railways were run at a profit by conducting only those operations which showed a profit, it would bring the industry of this country to a standstill.
  The alternative way in which we could pay for the service, in view of the peculiar circumstances of railway operation, is to recognise that if we are to have a service ready to take the surplus from road transport and available as an alternative means of transport in times of difficulty and distress the country must pay something towards the cost of the system. Whatever we like to call it, it is a subsidy. I have been quite frank about this. The Parliamentary Secretary, for whom we have much more regard than we have for the Minister, was associated with the farming industry, and I have never seen him and his friends in a dejected state because they were receiving subsidies. They are rendering a service to the nation in an industry which cannot show a profit in an industrial society when it is paying industrial wages and providing good industrial conditions for its workers.
  If we in the railways have to provide an effective and an efficient service, with all the disadvantages of also providing a service which is on tap and of carrying the capital responsibility, with decreased traffic, then the nation must bear some part of the burden. There are only two ways. Modernisation, rationalisation, electrification and any other sort of "ation" will not make the railways in this country, on their own, a profitable undertaking, except in one of these two ways.

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  As a result of the Minister's actions in the early months of this year, which culminated in the agreement arrived at in May, we as railwaymen are prepared to play our part inside the industry. But we are not prepared to subsidise industrialists by accepting a lower standard in rates of pay, salaries and conditions of service. If there must be a subsidy, it must not be at the expense of conditions of employment.
  Reference has been made in the debate to the pride taken in the railways in the days before the war. There certainly was some pride taken in the job that was being done, but in fact conditions were pretty bad. I remember on one occasion in St. Pancras meeting a woman whom I knew and saying "Hello, Esther, is your husband working?" She replied, "Yes, he has just had a job on the North London". I said, "That's good." She replied, "Yes, its starvation but its regular."
  Those were the conditions on the railways before the war, and we shall not tolerate those conditions again. We in the railway trade unions have already shown that we are prepared to co-operate with the British Transport Commission in providing as efficient a service as possible. We have co-operated in mechanisation schemes to the extent that staffs have been considerably reduced.
  I want to pay a compliment to the top management of the Commission. The fullest co-operation at that level in providing full information and taking part in joint consultation. That co-operation on the railways is as good as any to be found in any other industry and is better than that found in many. We have no complaints whatever about top-level management. They are prepared to discuss things well before schemes of management and rationalisation are likely to be put into operation. They are prepared to talk about the effect on staffs, and to accept our views, but that does not always apply all the way down the scale. However, the top-level management are doing their best, as are we in the trade unions, to educate the middle stratum of management to co-operate equally.
  The Minister spoke about area boards. Since 1951, when the present Government
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  came to power, there has been one reorganisation after another. Many hundreds of thousands of pounds have been wasted in my own union on salaries and other things as a result of men being engaged on successive reorganisation schemes. If we had been allowed to put as much energy into obtaining traffic as we have been forced to spend on airy-fairy ideological aims by various Ministers of Transport we would have made much greater progress by now. The various reorganisation schemes are costing the Commission many thousands of pounds a year in unnecessary expenditure. Men are moved from one part of the country to another. Though the Commission is quite humane in carrying out these operations, the fact remains that they cost a considerable amount of money. We resent being used for political purposes by the present Minister and having the industry continually disturbed.
  The position of railway capital was bad enough without the further imposition of the modernisation plan. There must be a reconstruction of capital which will provide a fair return. If this were not a nationalised industry, a capital reconstruction would not be considered wrong. Private industry is doing this every day, so why should we not have reconstruction of capital for the British Transport Commission? Railway workers are prepared to play their part but up to now they have been hampered, hamstrung and upset, and their morale has been destroyed by this Government for purely political, ideological reasons.
  8.56 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Strauss: The debate today has ranged over an unusually wide area. We all expected to hear speeches from hon. Members about the railways and their financial difficulties. We have had speeches about sea transport; one hon. Member jumped the gun and gave us an interesting talk about the recommendations of the Bowes Committee; and we have had speeches on many other subjects rather remotely connected with transport. The Bill before us has received the support of every hon. Member, and I think there is general agreement that the finances of the railways have now reached a critical stage which not only makes it imperative that they be given immediate relief from the borrowing limitations imposed on them by the Government, but

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  that there should be the most careful consideration of their long-term prospects.
  The causes of the immediate difficulty are well known. There never was any chance that the £250 million set by the Government as the maximum amount the Commission was permitted to borrow from the Ministry of Transport to meet revenue deficits during modernisation would be sufficient. The figure of £250 million was put forward by Sir Brian Robertson as the one which was likely to be required by the end of the modernisation plan if, but only if, in effect, money remained stable—this meant no increases in wages—and economic activity continued to increase during the whole period of modernisation.
  No one except the Government thought that those two conditions, especially the two together, would be possible. We said at the time that they could not be fulfilled. We urged the Ministry—I did so myself in several speeches in Committee and on the Floor of the House—to increase the figure from £250 million to something more realistic. I suggested, to quote my own words, "a margin of a substantial amount". The Minister was adamant. He said this was enough and that it was necessary to apply a "financial discipline" on the Commission—very favourite words of his. Indeed, the fact that he has submitted this Bill today is an acknowledgement of his error of a year ago.
  It is important, however, to establish beyond doubt the fact that tie British Transport Commission is in no way to blame for its present precarious financial situation. The heavy falls of receipts in all railway systems throughout Europe and North America is well known. Nearly all of them work at a loss. The reasons are the same everywhere. Although more people are travelling and more goods are being transported, more and more of the traffic is going by road. The financial position of British Railways is not exceptional, but typical.
  Moreover, throughout its existence the British Transport Commission has made praiseworthy efforts to overcome its financial difficulties by increasing efficiency, and the story of its achievements in doing that has been told year by year in its Annual Reports. It is a pity that more people do not appreciate what it has done, because it is a remarkable
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  success story. I am referring at the moment to the period before the launching of the modernisation scheme when, on every test of efficiency, striking progress was made.
  Great credit must be given to the Commission, too, for the drive with which it has launched the modernisation scheme and for the rapid progress which has been made. All the information which we have bears testimony to that, and I have not heard any suggestion from anybody—even from those who are most ready, for political or other reasons, to criticise the Commission—of there being any difference of opinion on that score.
  The situation today is that while our railways are sound and have able leadership, first-class technicians and loyal employees, and while the plans to modernise the system are far-reaching and likely to be effective, the Commission is faced with adverse factors beyond its control. That keeps it and all those associated with it in a constant state of crisis and unsettlement making the whole future of the railways uncertain.
  What, if anything, can be done by Parliament or the Government to change that situation? That is the major problem which confronts us today. Of course, we cannot stop the erosion of rail traffic by road traffic; nevertheless, a great deal can be done by the Government to improve the atmosphere, if the Government are so minded. But it will mean a drastic change in the attitude which the present Government have adopted towards this problem from the beginning.
  Looking back over the years, it is true to say that the Government have pursued a policy of blowing hot and cold, sometimes concurrently, if that is possible, and sometimes consecutively, a cold breath after each hot breath. Let us consider their activities in the past, not so much to draw any political moral, but to enable us to appreciate realistically their proven attitude towards the Commission and the railways, and from that their likely attitude in the future.
  In the early days, reflecting the general views of the Conservative Party, the Government regarded the Commission with open disfavour, on political grounds; and although they were not able to go so far as to return the railways to private enterprise, they proceeded to prune the Commission as quickly as possible of a

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  major section of its road haulage interests, although, or perhaps because, these were showing considerable promise of making good profits—indeed, in 1953, they were making almost £9 million a year.
  Incidentally, it is extraordinarily interesting to note the statements made in the Press recently, and confirmed by some hon. Members today, that at least some Conservative Members have been considering pursuing that policy and cutting off even further the Commission's remunerative services. We have been told that they have been seriously considering taking away from the Commission the hotels and catering services which pay, and possibly even carrying out some form of denationalisation of the railway system.
  I realise that that is not the policy of the Minister, but it is apparently the policy of some of his supporters, and is typical of the spirit of the Conservative Party. It is the transfer of the more lucrative enterprises of the Commission to private exploitation, leaving the public to carry the burden of the more unprofitable enterprises.
  We know that on more than one occasion during this period the Government have frustrated the Commission in its decision to raise charges when the Commission considered this to be desirable on commercial grounds, and, indeed, when those increases were endorsed by the Transport Tribunal. The amount of money involved was not very large—£17 million a year on one occasion—and is admittedly insufficient to have any decisive effect on the Commission's present financial position. But in preventing the Commission from taking the action it wished to take to raise more money the Government were displaying a wholly unco-operative and almost hostile attitude.
  Then, shortly after blowing hot and authorising the modernisation plan, with the heavy capital commitments involved, the Government imposed a cut on the capital expenditure of the Commission which, to put it no higher, impeded it in its endeavours to get on with the plan. We have heard little about that today from the benches opposite and, naturally enough, nothing from the Minister of Transport. But it should be recalled to the House that after the Government had endorsed this plan and said they were
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  anxious to see it realised as soon as possible, they stepped in and stopped the Commission doing many things it wanted to do and could do quickly.
  On 18th December, 1957, in answer to a Question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) the Minister said:
  "It will not now be possible to accelerate by as much as was hoped the programmes for main line diesel locomotives, for some rolling stock and for station improvements. The programme for the fitting of continuous brakes to some mineral wagons has also had to be slowed down."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th December, 1957; Vol. 580, c. 410–11.]
  The Minister went on to say that the Commission still hoped to complete its programme by the published date. That meant, in effect, that if the retardation had not been imposed the Commission might have been able to complete its plan at an earlier date.
  The Minister of Transport on this occasion thwarted and discouraged the Commission from carrying out activities which the Government themselves originally impelled it to undertake. As my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East has said, many quotations could be given from the Annual Report of the Commission showing how, over a large field of modernisation activities upon which the Commission had embarked, it was held up by the capital cuts imposed by the Government.
  All these interferences in the proper commercial activities of the Commission, and in the plans which it had made to improve and modernise itself, were actions on the part of a Government who profess that interferences of that sort are wrong, and that the Commission must conduct its affairs in a business-like way.
  These are the words of the Minister of Transport when he indicated the attitude of the Government to the railways. It is the view of the Government that this industry should,
  "… conduct itself much more like a large-scale commercial corporation than a sort of political creature subject to all the difficulties and problems of political pressures and direction."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd January, 1956; Vol. 563, c. 146.]
  If ever there was an example of an industry subject to political pressures and directions and thwarted and impeded from doing what it considered commercially desirable it is provided by the

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  British Transport Commission in its relations with the Minister. There could not be a better example.
  Mr. Peyton: Surely the right hon. Gentleman will accept that a Labour Government were the first to put this industry into the arena of party warfare?
  Mr. StraussHad the hon. Gentleman recalled the political activities and public agitation by the railways in the 1930s, the demands that the Government should interfere by legislation, the "square deal" campaign and the demands for political action to rescue the railway system, he would not have made that comment.
  I wish to ask the Joint Parliamentary Secretary what action the Government propose to take after all their promises and undertakings to the Commission about relieving the railways of the heavy burden of maintaining road bridges over the railways. In May of this year the Minister wrote to Sir Brian Robertson indicating sympathy with the view that this burden should be removed and saying that the Government would look into the problem. It was understood by everyone that the Government would do something about it.
  Mr. Lindgren: In the wage settlement negotiations last May it was part of the bargain regarding economies that the Commission would accept 3 per cent. and that the Government would relieve it of the burden of maintaining the road bridges, station approaches, level crossings, etc.
  Mr. Strauss: I was referring to the statements made in connection with the negotiations. I have previously asked the Minister what was happening and he said he hoped to make a statement soon. The promise was given seven months ago and it is time that the Government gave us an answer. I hope that we shall get it tonight.
  The Government have blown hot and cold over the Commission's affairs and have interfered, frequently and unwisely, in matters which the Commission should properly decide for itself. Today we are increasing the borrowing powers of the Commission. That information was conveyed in a letter to Sir Brian Robertson which I think was couched in singularly unfriendly and reproving words. The
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  Economist described the letter as a reproof. Referring to the appointment of auditors by the Minister to see whether the Commission was losing business because it was not getting its fair share of the available traffic, the Economist stated:
  "The Ministry watchdog has moved in, and some will think in a notably invidious way."
  All this, and the constant references in the Minister's communications to the Commission and in his statements to this House to the need for discipline—by which he means, so far as one can gather, ordering and restricting the Commission in many of its activities, in opposition to the commercial judgment of its members—indicates a type of behaviour towards the Commission which is not healthy or desirable and which does not bring about the best results. Indeed, the behaviour of the Minister might be compared with that of a "nanny" towards a naughty and irresponsible child which she feels necessary to slap down every now and again.
  What should be the attitude of the Government to bring about a healthy situation and prosperity in the railway industry? What should they do? First, I suggest that, in place of the suspicion and reluctant support which largely characterises the Minister's activities today, there should be recognition that the transformation of our railway system into a modern, efficient organisation that will serve the country's needs and pay its employees good wages is an overriding urgent national necessity; that all the resources needed for this should be provided without fear of cutbacks, and that those responsible for this great operation who have already given proof of their capacity should be treated with confidence and trusted; and their bona fides should not be inquired into every few months.
  I suggest that there should be full recognition that the objective of a good up-to-date railway system must in the national interest be achieved whether it is viable or not. While every effort should be made to make it viable, this must not be done at the expense of services which are required by industry or the travelling public. When the Minister says, as he did today, that he has told the Transport Commission that it must increase its economies next year from the agreed £20 million to £30 million, without indicating how that is to be done, his approach to

  619
  this matter is an exceedingly dangerous one.
  Economies do not mean cutting down wages. We know that there is a good case for an increase in wages. Economies mean cutting down the services further. For the Minister to say that the services must be cut and for him then to leave the responsibility to other people to say where they should be made—without making a case to the Commission that it is desirable to cut any, or whether in fact any can be cut without doing considerable damage to the public or the industry—is a nonsensical way to behave.
  We will know that the cutting of such services next year by the extra £10 million economy imposed by the Minister will not be the responsibility of the Commission. They might be contrary to the will of the Commission. They have been imposed by the Minister without any knowledge of what can or should be done. The Commission has to carry out the economies and no doubt the public and the industry will suffer.
  The Minister seems to have abandoned the idea altogether that the transport system of this country is a national service. It is a service first. It should be made remunerative if possible, but, even if it cannot be made remunerative, we must have a first-class railway system. To cut services, maybe vital ones, for economy sake is the wrong way to proceed.
  I suggest that it is nonsense for the Minister to come forward every now and then and bluff. He told us a few months ago, when it was clear that the Commission was getting into difficulties with its railways finance, that the Government would not increase beyond £250 million the amount they were prepared to lend the Commission to carry it over its difficulties. We all knew that was bluff and that if the necessity arose the right hon. Gentleman would have to do more. Today he has had to do it. He had no option. Today he told us—I forget his exact words, but they came to this—that he intends to insist that the Commission fulfils its financial obligations on the dates which have been laid down, that is 1962.
  Mr. Watkinson: They are not the words I used at all. I shall not argue
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  now with the right hon. Member, but perhaps he will be kind enough to read HANSARD, where he will see that my words did not mean anything of the sort. On the general question of the Commission, I think he will find that what I have said does not bear the connotation he has put on it.
  Mr. Strauss: I will read the right hon. Gentleman's words willingly.
  Mr. Lindgren: No one would believe the Minister of Transport.
  Mr. Strauss: I am certain that the right hon. Gentleman said the Government are determined to stand by the fulfilment of the plan on the dates which are laid down. I think the right hon. Gentleman used words to that effect.
  Mr. Peyton: The right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) has a bad memory.
  Mr. Strauss: No. However, I will read what the Minister said tomorrow.
  Mr. Watkinson: May I say what was said? What I said was that, pending this re-assessment of the modernisation plan, both the Commission and the Government stick to the date in 1961-62 as laid down by the Commission itself, and never by the Government.
  Mr. Strauss: I do not think that those were the right hon. Gentleman's exact words, but I am willing to accept what he says. He really implied today that, if the Commission did not carry out the obligations which are laid upon it, the Government would regard the matter as a breach of the undertaking, and serious consequential action would be taken, suggesting that more money might not be available.
  Anyway, the point I am making is that, having embarked upon a modernisation plan, whatever the Commission succeeds in doing or does not succeed in doing, if its losses continue to increase instead of diminish because of falls in traffics, any Government will have to go on modernising the railways and providing the money for it. It is no use pretending that there is any alternative before any Government of whatever party. It has got to be done.
  I therefore suggest that the Government should make it perfectly plain, that whatever happens the general strategy of

  621
  modernisation which has been carefully worked out should proceed, and be enabled to proceed smoothly, without the intervention of recurring crises arising from external events or from any strict adherence to specific dates or financial results related to those dates. This is the attitude that should be adopted by the Government to the railways. They should give the Transport Commission the green light to go ahead with all possible energy, to guarantee it against any sporadic interruptions and set-backs They should stop nagging at those in charge of the operations and expressing distrust of their ability to carry out what they have undertaken to do, or putting in auditors every now and again to verify the Commission's statements.
  Expressions of goodwill on behalf of the Government, accompanied by acts of frustration or indications of lack of confidence, are not good enough. That will not engender the right spirit among those, either in the senior or junior ranks of the organization, who have to accomplish the task that the nation has set them. But, given the whole-hearted support of the Government, I have very little doubt that all employees, from the most important technicians to those who work more humbly on the lines, will acquit themselves with credit and to the great benefit of the nation as a whole.
  9.24 p.m.
  Mr. S. Storey: I understand that during the course of this debate a rather serious railway accident has occurred at Urmston, in my constituency. May I ask my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary whether, in the course of his reply to the debate, he can give the House the latest information which is available?
  9.25 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation(Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): My right hon. Friend and I have just heard that at Urmston, at 6.19 p.m. today, the 5.30 p.m. train from Liverpool Central to Manchester Central ran into a road crane which had fallen on to the line at Moss Lane Bridge. The engine and five coaches were derailed. The engine overturned on its side and both lines were blocked. I regret to say that two passengers were killed and 30 injured, of
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  whom 10 were seriously injured. On behalf of the Government and of all Members on this side of the House, I would like to express my sympathy with the relatives of those who were killed and with the injured and their families.
  Mr. G. R. Strauss: My colleagues on this side, of course, wish to associate ourselves most sincerely with what the Parliamentary Secretary has said.
  Mr. Nugent: I knew that the right hon. Gentleman would wish to say that. I felt that he would prefer to say it himself. We send our good wishes to the injured and to their families.
  This has certainly been a wide-ranging debate, but I can say that my right hon. Friend and I have been studying this subject not only for weeks, but for months, in consultation with our advisers and with the Transport Commission itself. I can truthfully say that there is no point raised in the debate, from either side of the House, that we have not pondered over before we came here today.
  We bring this Bill to the House with all deliberation. I acknowledge, with thanks to the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) and his hon. Friends, the fact that it is the Opposition's intention to give the Bill an unopposed Second Reading. There are, however, certain opinions which have been expressed from the other side with which I do not entirely agree. It would be surprising if I did.
  It has been a relief to me to hear that nobody has contended that we could possibly do without a railway system. Thus it follows logically that we should have a fully modernised, efficient system just as soon as we can. Therefore, we can as a House reaffirm the decision taken in 1955 to modernise our railways.
  I turn now to the main points that were raised in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Summers) spoke about inland waterways. I listened with great interest to his intervention. My right hon. Friend. and I have for some time been considering carefully the many recommendations, and, indeed, implications, which flow from the Bowes Report. I confirm my hon. Friend's suggestion that great complication also flow from those recommendations. My right hon. Friend and I will

  623
  take into account the views expressed by my hon. Friend. My right hon. Friend hopes to make a statement about this important matter soon after the House resumes after the Christmas Recess.
  I must say a word in reply to the hon. Members for The Hartlepools (Mr. D. Jones) and Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren), both of whom decided to make this an occasion for a personal attack on my right hon. Friend. It is difficult to see how that could help the debate, or the important issues that we have before us. Both hon. Members told the House that the railwaymen and themselves had no confidence in my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Lindgren: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Nugent: I rebut that completely. My right hon. Friend has a most distinguished record as Minister of Transport. It is largely due to him that the modernisation programme is going on at all.
  Today, we come to the House asking for approval of £600 million for fresh capital expenditure and an extra £150 million for the deficit financing, and hon. Members on the other side get up and say that my right hon. Friend is sabotaging the railways. I have never heard such nonsense.
  Mr. D. Jones Mr. D. Jones rose—
  Mr. Nugent: I shall not give way until I have finished. This was a personal attack and a very unfair one. It is a most difficult job for the Minister of Transport to hold the right balance between his duties to the Transport Commission and his duties to the House, the country and the taxpayers, who have to find the money. I should like to put it on record that in the two years I have been at the Ministry of Transport, I have been full of admiration for the way my right hon. Friend does the job, and I reject completely the attacks that the two hon. Members have made.
  Mr. D. Jones: I would have been very surprised if the Parliamentary Secretary had not rushed to the defence of his right hon. Friend, but if his right hon. Friend does not want to have repeated in the House the stupid speeches he makes in the country he should not make them.
  Mr. Nugent: I would only say to the hon. Members opposite that they should
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  themselves try to live in the spirit that they advocate other people should live in.
  Mr. Lindgren: The trade unions have always been prepared to work in conjunction with the Minister, but when he treats the Chairman of the Commission and—the Commission—as an office boy, the trade unions will give the Chairman their first support, not the Minister.
  Mr. Nugent: Let me now turn to the issues raised in the debate. The two main lines of comment that have emerged from right hon. and hon. Members opposite have been, first, that the Commission has been handicapped by inadequate or unsympathetic Government action; and, secondly, there has been the very important question whether the prospects of the railways justify the money provided in the Bill. This query was particularly developed by the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt), and by my hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson).
  I must deal, first, with the major point, made by the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) and developed by his hon. Friend the Member for The Hartlepools, who contended that it was the Government's action and policy that were the Commission's primary handicap —that is, the Government's policy of disinflation last autumn. I am sure that it would be out of place—and it would probably be out of order—for me to go very far in this matter, but I want to say this, because it is relevant to the whole debate and to what hon. Members opposite have said.
  All hon. Members recognise that, basically, the economic health of the country depends on a favourable balance of trade, with a margin wide enough to replenish our gold reserves and finance our overseas investments. On this depends not only the value of the £ sterling, but also the jobs and standards of life of the whole community. To ignore this basic necessity quickly leads to disaster, and right hon. and hon. Members opposite cannot have such short memories as not to recollect what happened in 1951.
  The Government's financial policy in the past year, in so effectively restoring this balance, has provided a sheet anchor for our economy in the face of a recession which has spread throughout the world.

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  Internal reflation can help only so long as this cornerstone of the economy is preserved. Past experience indicates that this House would be highly unlikely to be debating at all tonight the provision of these very large sums of money had we not followed such policies, for the very simple reason that our national finances would not be strong enough now to carry the very big extra burden that we are asking the House to put on them.
  The Labour Party's policy for transport was dealt with very fully by the hon. Member for Enfield, East, by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell) and, indeed, by implication, by most hon. Members opposite who have spoken. I should like to say just a word in reply to the Opposition's political argument. They are opposed to the present structure of the transport industry, where the road and rail services compete together and the traders and the industrialists can take their choice of which they want. As I understand, the Labour Party advocates a system where road haulage is nationalised and C licences are controlled—
  Mr. Ernest Davies: Long distance.
  Mr. Nugent: The hon. Gentleman gave us the benefit of his ideas by saying that these might be restricted by weight or by distance.
  I was asked what our policy was. Our policy on C licences is to leave them free. We think that they play an essential part in industry, and we do not see how industry can carry on without them. What I gathered from hon. Members opposite was that they would achieve integration and bring about a co-ordination of road and rail transport.
  I concede that, in theory, this throws up an attractive picture whereby road and rail transport would somehow both be used to the best economic extent. We know from experience that that really does not happen. Arbitrary decisions are taken which have the effect of clipping the wings of road transport to give rail an artificial advantage. That is surely a policy which cannot be but disadvantageous to industry as a whole. Ask any industrialist in the country, including the Co-operative Wholesale Society, whether he would like this policy and he will answer very quickly—and the reply will probably be unprintable. Why? Because this is bound to lead to less efficient service and higher costs.
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  I quite accept that hon. Members opposite feel strongly on these matters. Indeed, as I listened to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West and heard the fervency in his voice, I realised that he felt very strongly on this matter. It all depends on the point of view. To hon. Members opposite it looks one way and to hon. Members on this side it looks another. Things are different depending on how one looks at them.
  I noticed that a paper yesterday stated that when we read the Soviet official history of the United Kingdom we discover that the Socialists nationalised industry to strengthen the capitalist system. That will be a surprise to hon. Members opposite. It depends on how one looks at it.
  I want to leave the House in no doubt at all that so far as we are concerned we feel that the policy of the Labour Party is one which would be sacrificing the general interests of the nation for the benefit of the railway system. That is the economics of Bedlam. I say quite definitely that our policy is the reverse. We believe that the right thing to do is to modernise the railways so that they can serve the nation, and not the other way round. I think that the Commission welcome this prospect.
  Turning to the question of regional autonomy, I was asked by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West a number of questions on which he was joined by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wellingborough. The hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West also risked the remark that he was open to be convinced that this had a value. I hope that he will be convinced when I have answered him. First, the area boards were set up on the initiative of the Transport Commission itself—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—and the Chairman of the Transport Commission has asked me to say that from this Box tonight.
  Mr. Popplewell: The Chairman of the Transport Commission may have done, but we all know the history. The Government decided on area boards and gave the Commission a directive to that effect. It is quite correct that the Commission established the area boards—after the directive.
  Mr. Nugent: The hon. Member really must not make his speech again. I am stating a fact for the record.

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  There are about 40 members on the six area boards and the total fees paid to them is £20,429, so if they are "jobs for the boys" they are not very remunerative ones. The expenses are negligible. I personally have been around the country and met the area boards, and I think that we are very lucky to have such distinguished, public-spirited men to play their part in the regions. Their functions, except for major policy, finance, rolling stock and national wages agreements, which rest with the B.T.C. cover all the administration in the regions and that is their responsibility. They are now playing a very active part and are doing most valuable work not only in the direct administration of the regions, but also in their contacts with industry and in improving the relations between the railways and industry.
  I assure the House that the Commission itself is very well satisfied with the development that has been made there. If the hon. Gentleman has any evidence of irregularities, and would care to send it to my right hon. Friend or myself, we will very readily look into it and take any action that is appropriate.
  Mr. Popplewell: I did not use the word "irregularity". I referred to administrative expenses within the areas. I do not want it to be thought that I used the word "irregularity".
  Mr. Nugent: I am very glad to hear the hon. Gentleman's correction. I understood him to say that some of these board members had connections with firms—
  Mr. Popplewell: No; I asked a question.
  Mr. Nugent: I am very glad that I had the wrong impression.
  I wish to leave no doubt in anyone's mind that both the Commission and the Government believe that these boards are serving a very valuable purpose indeed. I hope that the House will give a fair judgment of the value they are giving. We certainly intend to encourage their development.
  I come now to the vexed question of capital for modernisation, which we have discussed on more than one occasion. Our policy has been to give the Commission the maximum available for its modernisation, and the only time when it
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  has had any cut at all was last autumn. The history was, as my right hon. Friend said, that, as was stated in the White Paper of 1956, the Commission asked for £135 million and £140 million for 1958 and 1959 respectively. Its revised request, in the autumn of last year, was for £151 million and £148 million. The actual Government allowance made in the autumn of last year was £145 million for both years. There was, therefore, a cut of £6 million on 1958 and a cut of £3 million on 1959.
  Looking back over the financial conditions of last year, with which I have already dealt, I would say that this was a very small cut indeed that the Commission was asked to make, considering the great financial pressure upon us and the very important national stakes which were then in danger. It is really a tribute to my right hon. Friend that the Commission was given such a very large part of what it needed.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: Is it not a fact that the figures that the hon. Gentleman has quoted were the figures of the cut-back on the original programme which the Commission had, but then the Commission found it possible to accelerate the programme and was in process of accelerating it? The real cuts were on the accelerated programme, and they were substantially more than the figures he has given.
  Mr. G. R. Strauss: £25 million to £30 million.
  Mr. Nugent: We have had this argument before, as right hon. and hon. Gentlemen know. I gave the facts during the debate last April.
  The regions were, so to speak, getting up steam to put in requests for a larger amount, but those requests had not reached the Commission at the time it made its request for an allowance of £151 million. It was not until some weeks later, after the actual amount had been settled with the Government, that the Commission was aware of the acceleration that the regions had made. It really cannot be laid at the door of the Government. It was an entirely domestic affair within the Commission, and it is really quite unfair to say that it was on the Government's account that the figure was reduced as the hon. Member for Enfield, East suggests.

  629
  A further £25 million were added in April this year, to be spread over the two years 1958–59, and a further £8 million have now been added this autumn. The final total is £178 million for next year, which is about £30 million above the Commission's actual request. I really think that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are being a little ungenerous about what has been done when they say that my right hon. Friend has not given the Commission an adequate deal in this matter. He really has done very well and given the Commission all that it can possibly spend.
  Turning now to questions about Government interference, I should not like to make too much of these points. I think that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Vauxhall put them in their proper perspective when he said that their effect is marginal. It is always difficult to equate the necessities of national policy with the necessities of policy within the Commission, but the effect of the 1956 action was no more than marginal in the total picture, and it was temporary. The same, of course, is true about the sale of the vehicles. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Enfield, East selected the highest profit figure of £8·9 million, which was made in 1953. In 1952. the figure was only £1·7 million.
  Mr. Lindgren: It was a developing service.
  Mr. Nugent: The year before that, it was £3·3 million. The hon. Gentleman has compared it with the lowest figure made since denationalisation. In fact, in 1957, it went up again to £2·8 million. The broad effect is a difference of, perhaps, £3 million or £4 million at the outside, and it is really marginal in the total.
  Mr. Lindgren: No.
  Mr. Nugent: A certain amount has been said about the commercial freedom of the Commission, and I agree that it is of first importance that the Commission should have commercial freedom and that it should be in a position to compete freely with the road services and be without the handicaps which it has had in days gone by. The point was made that the Commission has the common carrier obligation, and it is true that there may still be some theoretical point in that,
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  but, in fact, since the 1957 charges scheme the Commission has been virtually free. The scheme which it has now made takes account of such matters as loadability, and the Commission is restricted only by a ceiling of what is called "reasonable". It can, therefore, make charges for uneconomic freights which ensure that it is not carrying things it does not wish to carry.
  Mr. Lindgren: A number of manufacturers whom I will not name, but whom I could name, have their full loads carried by C licence vehicles, but their empty package cases have to be taken back by the railways under the common carrier obligation.
  Mr. Nugent: But the railways can now make such charges as they like. If hon. Members look again at the letters between the Chairman of the Commission and my right hon. Friend they will see this point. If they will look at paragraph 26 (b), about freight traffic, they will see that the Commission considers
  "that an overall emergency increase might yield temporary advantages only to be succeeded by permanent disadvantages."
  The Commission's policy is
  "to hold down their freight charges in order to encourage traffic."
  The Chairman has said to my right hon. Friend and myself that he regards the position as satisfactory and that he has all the freedom on freight services which he requires.
  As for passenger services, the Chairman is now awaiting the judgment of the Tribunal on the present application, but it cannot be said that either the Government or anybody else is unfairly holding this back or opposing it. My right hon. Friend fairly made the point that a very large number of Socialist-controlled local authorities are opposing this application, but so are Tory-controlled local authorities, and there is nothing in that at all.
  The Chairman has also said that he does not contemplate any general increase in passenger fares in the next six months. I do not think that there is any evidence to show that the Commission is being unfairly handicapped in making charges.
  I should like to reply to the last main point which I mentioned—whether the prospects of the railways justify the money provided in the Bill. My right hon.

  631
  Friend has told the House that the Commission is now engaged on the detailed review of the modernisation programme; and I am sure that that is right. It would not be right to ask the House to vote these very large sums unless the Commission were making this complete review. Conditions have changed very considerably in the last two or three years and it is only sense to make that complete review and to see whether the modernisation scheme is right.
  That, after all, is the 64 dollar question: is the modernisation plan correctly designed to fit the conditions of the second half of the twentieth century? This will give the Commission a chance to consider that, and when it is done we shall see the report here, and both the Commission and ourselves can take a fresh view of it. The Commission's modernisation plan sets its solvency target for 1961–62 and, as my right hon. Friend has said, that still stands. I sincerely hope that the Commission will still make it, but, in any event, it now has a chance to look at the whole matter afresh.
  On the credit side, I should like to repeat the point about the auditor's certificate which my right hon. Friend mentioned. That shows that, despite the high deficit which the Commission now has, in the short run the Commission's position is not due either to faulty judgment in assessing its prospects or to inability to carry out its plans. I think that the Commission is entitled to some measure of confidence on this count.
  Again, the passenger services are, I think, distinctly encouraging. Hon. Members opposite who have a good deal of experience of the railways will, of course, realise that it is easier, or, rather, it is quicker, to bring about improvements in passenger services than it is with freight. Certainly, the Commission has done that, and it is encouraging to see that the rather more attractive services that electrification and diesel can give just tip the scale and win extra passengers.
  My right hon. Friend referred to rather impressive figures of the improvements which have been brought about. I have three other figures which I should like to give to the House. The figure for the four weeks of November, 1958, compared with 1957, shows an increase in revenue on the passenger side of £0·3 million.
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  The two previous four-weekly periods show an increase of £0·6 million and £0·5 million respectively. The diesel sets will be doubled over the next two years, and there is a very big programme of main line diesel locomotives coming on. Therefore, there is every prospect that these results are only the beginning of something quite substantial in improvements on the passenger side. It is encouraging to see that that extra attraction and improvement in service tip the scale, and it is reasonable to expect that when the freight side can offer a comparable degree of improvement we shall obtain equally good results.
  Freight, of course, is the key to the problem. Freight is responsible for nearly two-thirds of the total revenue of the railways, and it is in this field that the greatest difficulties and uncertainties still remain. The modernisation of the freight service is a far more difficult job. It depends on a number of factors, the main one being that locomotives have to be changed from steam to diesel or electric. That is relatively easy, but it takes time. Wagons have to be changed from loose coupling to close coupling with continuous brakes. That is a very long and difficult business. Marshalling yards have to be concentrated, redesigned and modernised, freight terminals concentrated and re-equipped to handle a comprehensive container service. All these are vital links in the chain. Each involves a mass of technical problems which have taken time to solve. It takes an immense amount of work to make these arrangements and a great deal of time to get them into operation. But the Commission is going ahead. While waiting for the completion of all these measures it is pressing on to make the fullest use of the already improved services that it can now offer.
  By grouping commercial and operating functions at regional and local level, the Commission has made it possible for the man who meets the potential customer for rail freight to offer the maximum adjustment of services to meet the customer's needs and to use the maximum discretion in settling the rate to be charged for that particular freight. These are the right steps in a policy of aggressive selling and there are already signs of good results. As to subsidisation, the Commission has to repay its loans to

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  cover deficits with interest. Therefore, there is no subsidisation of any kind.
  As to the reduction in staffs that is going on. the total wastage from all causes in 1957 was 80,000. The reduction of staff in the past twelve months has been of the order of 20,000. That gives a good deal of elbow room to the Commission in the staff reductions which it has to make. Unfortunately, they are not always in the right place geographically, or in the right grade, but the Commission is doing its utmost to make these adjustments without causing real redundancies, and that applies to the workshops as well. I have noted the anxiety expressed on this point by the hon. and learned Member for Crewe (Mr. Scholefield Allen) and I will look into it. As to cutting down in workshops, as far as possible the Commission has evenly spread out the work between outside workshops and the Commission's workshops. In the coming year they hope to keep the total number of redundancies amongst the staff to about 1,000 out of some 120,000. Therefore, I ask the House to accept that that is not a very large figure.
  The charge that the Commission is being handicapped by the Government does not stand up to examination. On the contrary, the House must give us the credit, because it is we who are making the modernisation possible, and it is that which is the salvation of the railways. In the Bill we are asking the House for the means to continue to finance the Commission's modernisation plan and the current deficit, on the understanding that the House will see the revised plan next spring and that commitments will not go beyond this in the meantime.
  The Commission has supplied a good deal of evidence which my right hon. Friend and I have given the House today to show that their unshaken confidence in the future of the railways is justified, and I ask the House to give due weight to that. I believe that the balance is firmly in favour of giving the Bill a Second Reading.
  Finally, may I say that it is on the railwaymen themselves, from the board room of the Commission to the footplate and the platform, that success ultimately depends. 'The great tradition of British engineers pioneering the railways in the last century gives confidence that again, in the second half of the twentieth
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  century, they will find the answers to the perplexing problems that now confront the railways. I would like it to go out from this House that it is our common hope that they will succeed. That is why we are here today, voting for these large sums of money. We confidently look to them to turn our hopes into realities, so I confidently ask the House to give a Second Reading to the Bill.
  Mr. Lindgren: May I ask the hon. Gentleman a question? I did not interrupt his peroration. He referred to the freedom of the Commission on commercial charges. May we therefore take it that there will be no more Ministerial interference with wage negotiations with the Commission? May we have an answer? It is fundamental to the morale of railwaymen.
  Mr. Nugent Mr. Nugent rose—
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Colonel J. H. Harrison.]
  Committee upon Monday next.

TRANSPORT (BORROWING POWERS) [MONEY]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).—[Queen's Recommendation signified.]
[Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to increase the limits imposed by paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section twenty-six of the Transport Act, 1953, and by subsection (4) of section one of the Transport (Railway Finances) Act, 1957, on the borrowing powers of the British Transport Commission, it is expedient to authorise—
(1) any increase in the sums which may be or are to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund, raised by borrowing or paid into the Exchequer under the Transport Act, 1947 (as amended by the Transport Act, 1953), in respect of guarantees by the Treasury of borrowings by the Commission, or under section forty-two of the Finance Act, 1956 (as amended by section thirty-six of the Finance Act, 1958), being an increase attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session raising to not more than twelve hundred million pounds the limit imposed by the said paragraph (b);
(2) any increase in the sums which may be or are to be issued, raised or paid as aforesaid under section two of the Transport

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(Railway Finances) Act, 1957, being an increase attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session raising to not more than four hundred million pounds the limit imposed by the said subsection (4). — [Mr. Watkinson.]
Resolution to be reported.
Report to be received upon Monday next.

ADOPTION BILL [Lords]
Read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House. — [Colonel J. H. Harrison.]
Committee upon Monday next.

NATIONAL DEBT BILL [Lords]
Read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Colonel J. H. Harrison.]
Committee upon Monday next.

MANŒUVRES BILL [Lords]
Read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Colonel J. H. Harrison.]
Committee upon Monday next.

SLAUGHTER OF ANIMALS BILL [Lords]
Read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Colonel J. H. Harrison.]
Committee upon Monday next.

STRATEGIC MATERIALS (EXPORT TO INDONESIA)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.— [Colonel J. H. Harrison.]
9.59 p.m.
Mr. James Callaghan: I am very grateful to Mr. Speaker for selecting this subject for the Adjournment, because it has aroused considerable public interest and because I should like briefly to get the facts, as I understand them, on record. Last spring, the Indonesian Government were anxious to standardise in this country on the lines of the Royal Navy, and were ready to build in this country, if permission were given. a number of ships, the construction of which was to be spread over a period, probably as long as ten years. This would have involved the sum of about £60 million—which would have come to this country, of course.
It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.— [Mr. Chichester-Clark.]
Mr. Callaghan: I approached the Foreign Office on this matter, but for weeks I could not get any reply, although I made telephone calls and saw the Minister of State. Eventually, I got some sort of uncommunicative reply which told me that in present circumstances it was not deemed wise to allow these orders to go through. I told my correspondents what the view of the Foreign Office was, and readily acknowledged in my letter to the Foreign Office at the time that
"… the present situation must be troubling you but, on the other hand, this order will be spread over a long period and the position in Indonesia will be settled one way or another before it can come to fruition."
Nevertheless, the inquiries were rejected.
The next thing that I heard was that the Indonesians, having been refused permission here, had taken the first part of their order to West Germany and had placed orders for six motor-torpedo boats with Messrs. Lurssen of Hamburg, Germany. The value of those orders was roughly £3 million. I am running rapidly

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through the facts to get them on record because this is such an incredible story of muddle and incompetence on the part of the Foreign Office.
What happened next was that although 'the Indonesians were still anxious to place orders in this country, and although they wanted us to build one destroyer and one frigate, of the Blackwood class. I think—it was certainly a destroyer and a frigate —the firm in question could get no authorisation from the Admiralty or the Foreign Office to build those craft.
The position when it was brought to me was that the Indonesian naval mission, which is in Europe at the moment, had taken the orders to an Italian shipbuilding firm in Genoa—I have the name— and had asked it to build two destroyers. If the Italian shipbuilding firm gets the orders for those two destroyers, it is highly likely that it will get orders for another twelve destroyers, because the Indonesian Government are anxious to standardise. That was the whole point of their original approach to British firms —they wanted to standardise on one country's weapons.
There now arises a most astonishing fact, and I ask the Under-Secretary to correct me if I am wrong in any of these statements. I understand that although we refused to give permission for the building of the six motor-torpedo boats, Messrs. Vickers-Armstrong have been given permission to supply the main armaments, the torpedo tubes, to Messrs. Lurssen of Hamburg. Will the Under-Secretary say whether that is right or wrong?
I further understand that in the event of the Italian shipbuilding firm getting the orders for the two destroyers, Messrs. Vickers-Armstrong are getting permission, or will get permission, or have got permission—I do not want to be tied to any of those; but it is fairly clearly understood—to supply the latest four-inch quick firing guns, the main armament of the destroyers.
Where is the sense of this? While still thinking it wrong, I could understand denying the Indonesians the ships they need, but what possible confidence can there be in a Government who tell shipbuilding workers that they can be thrown out of unemployment, but that Messrs. Vickers-Armstrong will be given the
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opportunity of supplying armament for those ships?
Will the Under-Secretary tell me whether I am right or wrong? The House and the country are entitled to an answer. If I am wrong, I will willingly acknowledge my share of the responsibility. I am acting on information conveyed to me by what I believe to be responsible authorities. I exploded when I read that the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, standing at the Dispatch Box, told the House that small shipyards in this country were in a serious position and that there is likely soon to be redundancy.
Is it reasonable that Indonesia should have this equipment? It has been suggested in my local newspaper that it is not, and that we are trafficking in arms. I should like to make one or two comments about that. First, it has always been the policy of British Governments to supply other nations with warships. If we look at the current Jane's Fighting Ships we find a list of between 20 and 30 countries, ranging from Argentina to Yugoslavia, to whom we have supplied ships in the past.
Secondly, Indonesia is a country of 80 million people, living on a vast archipelago of about 3,000 islands, stretching —if my geography is correct—as far as from Newfoundland to Ireland. That country needs and demands, and can properly ask for, craft of this kind to protect itself against piracy, to protect its coasts, and for general police duties. The case is made out on those grounds alone.
I made some reference to this at a conference of unemployed shipbuilding workers and what surprised me was the volume of correspondence I got as a result. The Joint Under-Secretary does not know what a hornet's nest has been stirred up, and how angry British industrialists are about the present attitude of the Foreign Office. I have seen details of orders which the Indonesian Government have placed for merchant ships during this summer. They have placed orders for 10 ships in Japan, to a total value of £2½ million, for which they have paid or will pay cash—there is no question of credit—24 ships in Poland, to a value of £14 million; two cattle carriers in West Germany, to a value of £500,000; 12 ships from the Soviet Union, and one ship from Finland.

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I should like to read a letter that I have received from one businessman, who starts by disclaiming any desire to help the Labour Party. He says
"I have done some business with the Indonesian Navy. Most of its senior officers either served in or were trained by our Navy. There is a tremendous feeling of good will towards us, and the Admiralty believes that our interests are best served by strengthening this to the utmost. As it is, Indonesian officers I have met are losing their faith in British good will, and turning to the Germans or to Yugoslavia and Poland…The Foreign Office subservience to American, Australian and Dutch interests has lost Britain all this, and unless opinion can be roused to force a change, we shall lose much more, not merely work, but that even greater asset, confidence and good will. This 'head-in-sand' attitude will not stop the Indonesians from getting what they want. It will drive them elsewhere…Indonesia wishes to buy communications equipment in large quantities for civil use. She needs it for aviation and for marine traffic. The Germans, Japanese and Americans are all trying to take the orders, because they know that once their systems are established they will have a long-term monopoly for spares and extensions."
The writer goes on to say that unless his firm can get permission from the Foreign Office and the Board of Trade to accept these orders—which it cannot get at present, because of the policy of the Export Credits Guarantee Department —there will inevitably be serious redundancy in his firm. The Foreign Office has an account to answer.
I want to come to a point about the other Governments referred to in the letter. According to a Foreign Office statement made only a few days ago, it was decided in September, after consultation with all our friends and allies, that we did not intend at present to supply major items of military equipment to Indonesia. Who are these friends and allies? Rumour has it that one is the United States of America. If that is true, they are playing a double game, because they are getting orders. I have details of the orders that they have obtained, and of what they are trying to do. The Under-Secretary should ask his right hon. and learned Friend to raise this matter with Mr. Dulles forthwith.
Is Australia one of these friends and allies'? Nobody here wants to do anything to endanger Australian security. Certainly I do not wish to do so, and I should not be a party to raising this matter if I thought that it would do so. I
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have made the point that this is a vast island country, stretching over a great area of sea, which is asking for the minimum number of ships necessary to protect its coast.
Nobody will convince me—and I claim to have some slight knowledge of what is possible in the way of attack and defence in this matter—that these orders represent any threat at all to Australia.
Thirdly, is it Holland? I am told that assurances have recently been given to the Dutch Ambassador that we will not supply arms. I am bound to say that I do not think that we need to take lessons from the Dutch.
The views in Australia about this were summed up in the Sydney Morning Herald last Thursday and I have been sent a cutting, which states:
"It would appear that the British have, in the interests of good relations with Australia and Holland, rejected valuable orders without adding a whit to peace and stability in the Indonesia-New Guinea context. Djakarta seeks naval vessels; if it does not get them in Britain it goes to Germany or Italy, and if not there it will find them perhaps in some less desirable neighbourhood. If it had not received the kind of arms it recently got from the United States, it would have found them in Communist armouries."
That is the view of the Sydney Morning Herald.
There are two views in Australia about the representations supposed to have been made in this country by the Australian Government. I ask the Under-Secretary to tell us what are those representations. We want to put this to him. Is any attempt being made to discuss the facts? The Foreign Office and the Board of Trade stand convicted of neglecting British interests in this part of the world. Of course they should listen to representations made by Australia, by the United States and by Holland, but they do not have to lie down in front of these countries.
We have a real interest. Our people are being put out of work by the present policy of the Foreign Office which has not in any way succeeded in stopping anything from getting to Indonesia. All they have done is to lengthen the queues at the employment exchanges in this country.
I say to the Under-Secretary that he should take the initiative, or his right hon. and learned Friend should do so, and approach the Australian Government, the

641
Dutch Government and the American Government and point out to them the consequences to our people of the policy at present being followed. It should be pointed out to those Governments that in fact they are not succeeding, by the representations they are making, in keeping things from Indonesia that they do not wish the Indonesians to have. For goodness sake let the Foreign Office stand up for Britain instead of lying down before these people.
My second proposal is that we should ask our Ambassador in Indonesia to see the Minister of Foreign Trade, who was recently the Indonesian Ambassador to this country. There is here a tremendous market. There are 80 million people involved. This is the sixth largest State in the world. Under the present policy of the Foreign Office we are even denying the Export Credits Guarantee Department the opportunity of giving cover for loans to back orders for trade with Indonesia. I say that this is folly, and it is high time the facts were dragged out and exposed.
The third suggestion I make is that the hon. Gentleman should invite—I hope he is listening because this is very important and I warn him that there will be a lot more heard about it—our Naval Attaché in Rome to call on the head of the Indonesian naval purchasing mission there and invite him and his mission to come to London. Let us have a discussion about what they need and what can be done to supply them. I warn the Under-Secretary that he is not just losing the opportunity of securing orders for a small number of vessels now: he is losing the opportunity of getting orders for a large number of vessels over a long period.
My fourth suggestion is that the Government should reverse the present policy set out in the Financial Times a few days ago that, because of the economic and political uncertainties in Indonesia, there is no satisfactory basis for resuming credit insurance cover with Indonesia. This may be so, but it is not the view of any of the other major trading countries in Europe or in the United States. It seems to me, in the absence of any information from the hon. Gentleman, that what is prompting this attitude on the part of the Export Credits Guarantee Department is not the merits of the case but the politics. What is preventing the
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Department from doing its duty is political pressure. We are lying down in front of those who do not wish us to sell goods to Indonesia.
Mr. Harold Davies: I should like to confirm what my hon. Friend is saying, only recently having returned from the United States. The interests of Britain are being put behind the interests of the whole State Department in the cold war in South-East Asia. As one who knows the Indonesian Archipelago, I say this is a tragedy for British craftsmanship and workmanship and I hope we shall follow this matter to the bitter end with those who are controlling British interests.
Mr. Callaghan: My hon. Friend has made his speech, but I want to conclude and to give the Under-Secretary plenty of time in which to reply. As I understand it, the job of the Foreign Office is to support British trade by freeing it, but at the moment it seems to be the policy to sell Britain short.
10.16 p.m.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. John Profumo): I want to say at once that I am glad the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) has brought this important and complicated matter before the House tonight, for he has conducted the major part of his campaign on this subject so far—with the exception of a Question he asked the other day— through the Press. At least, I have seen a great deal in the Press. Some of the things that he has said have been wholly out of proportion with the true facts, and this occasion gives me a chance to try to put the facts in the right perspective.
I know from my days at the Ministry of Transport and at the Colonial Office what a skilful debater the hon. Member is. It is really rather strange that one of the first essays I make at this Box into the realms of foreign affairs should turn out to be one on which the hon. Member is attacking me again. I know that when the hon. Member beats the drum he kicks it about in such a way that, in the end, it is very difficult to recognise the thing at all. The gravamen of the situation is that the hon. Member has made some very irresponsible and partisan statements. I want to analyse the accusations which have been made tonight and in the newspapers.

643
The first is that we have been following a misguided policy over the export of strategic goods to Indonesia and that this policy has been administered with muddle and confusion. Secondly, he says that the policy has led to foreign countries getting huge orders, especially for ships, which would have been ours, and that this produces serious results particularly in the shipbuilding industry.
Mr. Callaghan: It will.
Mr. Profumo: I have read very carefully the newspaper cuttings and perhaps the hon. Member has been misquoted. [An HON. MEMBER: "We have all read them."] If hon. Members opposite have all read them they will agree with me—
Mr. Callaghan Mr. Callaghan rose—
Mr. Profumo: Perhaps I can make my speech in my own way.
The hon. Member will agree that the recent history of Indonesia has been anything but a calm one. The attitude of Her Majesty's Government towards strategic exports, and, incidentally, that of our chief Allies and of our N.A.T.O. Allies, has, naturally, been affected by all this uncertainty which eventually ended in civil war. In speeches by the hon. Member and in Press interviews he has scarcely mentioned the civil war. He appears altogether to have ignored the fact that there was a considerable Communist threat, that Communist mobs had led attacks on Dutch property and that there were signs of Communist influence near the seat of power.
The hon. Member appears to have overlooked the fears—not ill-founded fears—that extremist elements in Indonesia might use modern weapons to turn on Netherlands New Guinea and that throughout the early part of the year the Indonesian authorities were completing the take-over—so far without any compensation—of the extremely extensive Dutch assets in Indonesia.
Mr. Harold Davies: Foster Dulles must have written that.
Mr. Profumo: Her Majesty's Government could not know what the outcome of all this would be, nor, indeed, to what use—perhaps even in external ventures— the eventual Government of Indonesia might put our supplies. I do not think that hon. Members, if they really reflect, would question our decision not to export
644
arms and warlike equipment at that period.
I have no doubt whatever that the hon. Gentleman himself and his colleagues, who have never put the export of arms in the forefront of their own policy, would have taken precisely the same decision as we did. Indeed, there has not been a word of censure from the House of Commons at all about that particular period, and this at once seems to me to narrow down the period of disagreement, and, of course, I recognise that there is disagreement, to the last few months since the end of the rebellion.
Now the hon. Gentleman has spun his yarn as though Her Majesty's Government have been following a long and mischievous policy with disastrous consequences. During these last months, because of the continued unsettled conditions in Indonesia, there has been, and I readily admit, as a result of a definite act of policy, restriction in strategic exports to that country. But throughout that period we have been keeping the policy under constant review, not only among ourselves, but also with our Allies. Of course, we cannot possibly do this sort of thing without risking the loss of orders, maybe large ones, and, indeed, without running a risk of causing hardship to firms and to individuals.
Decisions about arms supplies are always most difficult. It would be much simpler for the Government if there had been a complete ban. If arms are supplied, the Government are accused of increasing tension; if they are not supplied, it appears that we are accused of losing valuable orders. None the less, the Government of the day have got to form the best judgment they can in each particular case.
Only the other day in the House my right hon. and learned Friend was implored by an hon. Member from the benches opposite to stop the export of arms to a certain country. Did we accuse the Opposition of trying to cause unemployment in industry in this country? I ask the hon. Gentleman: how dare he stoop so low as to throw out the sort of challenge, which he has certainly been reported in the Press as having made, when he said:
"How many more British shipyard workers do the Government want to throw out of work? "
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Profumno: How dare he do that when he knows perfectly well that there is a long history of the export of strategic goods, and the right hon. Gentleman who is sitting beside him knows very well that these things take a long time and this is a question of striking a balance, because if we do not export something it may be brought into the cockpit of party politics.
Let the hon. Gentleman turn some of his fury towards his right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr.Bevan). [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"].Well, we have been accused of muddle and confusion. It seems to me that there is a good deal of muddle in the minds of hon. Members opposite. This may appear to be a good cry for the moment, but I implore the House to realise the real seriousness of this problem. It cannot be judged purely on the question whether we are losing orders or not. It is a far more important problem than that.
I was saying that the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale was saying only last year that he supported most strongly the idea of an arms embargo for the whole of the Middle East. Why was he supporting that embargo? Because he wanted to have people thrown out of work? No, we have not accused him of that. He had a proper proportion in this matter.
Mr. Callaghan: Will the hon. Gentleman explain why it is that, in a matter of weeks, we have, first, a decision that we cannot build warships, but secondly, we can supply quick-firing guns and torpedo tubes?
Mr. Profumo: The hon. Gentleman cannot get out of his responsibility. I am coming to that point in a moment. The hon. Gentleman chucked around accusations and wild allegations about huge orders for ships being turned away.
I agree that the Indonesian Navy has a programme of future construction, and that this will take many years and will be worth considerable sums of money, perhaps many millions of pounds, but there has been nothing like a firm order of the magnitude suggested by the hon. Member. He talks about £60 million. I do not know where he gets it from. I
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have searched and searched, and unless we are to rely on vague calculations, transactions and inquiries, there is no truth at all in the allegation that we have turned away orders worth £60 million. I must say that there is no evidence that satisfactory financial arrangements could have been reached even if negotiations for these orders had gone ahead. Indonesia's financial position is causing her a great deal of concern. I am certain that large amounts of credit would have been involved, probably greater than could have been accepted.
I have been asked whether the orders have gone elsewhere. I have no evidence. The hon. Member talked about orders to a German firm for M.T.B.s. I understand that a German firm is building motor launches for Indonesia. An order for unarmed craft might well have gone to this country had we been asked to supply them, but we were invited to quote for M.T.B.s. I was asked whether it is true that we have given permission for weapons to be supplied to the German firm which it can put on the ships. The answer is that we have given no such permission.
The inquiries for larger warships came earlier this year at the time when the rebellion was taking place, and I have dealt with that. I have no evidence that these orders have gone to Italy. All I do know is that the supply of two frigates and two corvettes from Italy did go to Indonesia, but these are already there and were ordered before the civil war began. At that time, there was no official embargo in this country.
In any event, the hon. Member cannot have it both ways. He is grumbling that we are not exporting strategic goods to Indonesia and, at the same time, he suggests that we should not be exporting these goods to our own allies. We have always proceeded on the basis that the responsibility for where these strategic materials eventually end up rests fairly and squarely with the Government of the country to which we export and that we should certainly allow our home industries to benefit from these exports. If, however, the hon. Member is right in saying that other N.A.T.O. countries are accepting orders for strategic goods for Indonesia, that certainly would be a reason for reconsidering our own policy.

647
I know how difficult it is for hon. Members on the benches opposite to look at controls as anything but permanent instruments of policy, but we on this side do not like controls at all. Long before the hon. Member started this great hue and cry, my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary had been discussing these matters with the Indonesian Foreign Minister when he was last in London.
The hon. Member spoke about the export of non-strategic goods to Indonesia. A Question was answered in the House this afternoon by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd). I wanted to dilate on that, but time is short. Certainly, we are anxious to export non-strategic goods to Indonesia. The difficulty is the question of credit, which is a serious problem and but for which there is no embargo.
Certainly, the Foreign Office is causing no difficulty whatever. We are only too anxious to help. This is not an embargo by the Foreign Office. There is the serious trouble of restriction of credit. [Interruption.] We are prepared to continue the export of goods of a non-strategic quality to Indonesia, but the trouble is an economic one and not a matter of policy. It is a matter of the working of the Exports
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Credits Guarantee Department, which has this matter under consideration and which will continue to review it in order to be able to restore cover at the earliest possible time.
The gravamen of the hon. Member's accusations today has concerned the export of strategic materials. This is a problem which is constantly under review and on which we intend to continue to take action from the responsible viewpoint of a Government in power. We will not be deflected from our duty by this sort of party pressure which the hon. Member is seeking to put upon us. Let him have his party arguments in other fields. This is so serious a matter that we shall continue to take our decisions as the situation requires.
I am not prepared to go further than that tonight. I am sure that in the basic interests of the country we have been right in what we have done. We shall continue to take our decisions according to what we feel to be the right policy to take.
The Question having been proposed at Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at half-past Ten o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Earl of Guilford—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his grand-father.

MENTAL ILLNESS
3.5 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that only 2 per cent. of the Medical Research Council's budget is spent on research into the causes of mental illness, and whether, having regard to the statement in the Report of the Ministry of Health for the year 1957 that "psychiatrists are still a long way from a scientific understanding of most of the major forms of mental illness", they will take steps to increase facilities for such research.]
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): No, my Lords. The Medical Research Council's expenditure on research into the causes of mental illness has been steadily rising during the past few years, and in the present financial year will amount to some £130,000. This is over 4 per cent., and not 2 per cent., of the Council's annual budget. Arrangements have recently been made by the Council to undertake a full-scale review of research in this field with a view to considering its future development.
In addition, the noble Lord will no doubt be aware that a number of voluntary organisations and philanthropic trusts, such as the Mental Health Research Fund, the Nuffield Foundation, the Wellcome Trust and the Ford Foundation, make important contributions to psychiatric research. The Mental Health Research Fund, for example, spent about £36,000 during the
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financial year 1957–58 and their total expenditure since 1954 is estimated at £86,000. During the past five years the Nuffield Foundation have also spent a substantial sum on subjects relevant to mental disorder. The Leverhulme Trust and the Ford Foundation have made large block grants to the Mental Health Research Fund; and the Wellcome Trust have made direct contributions to work in this field.
As "observational" research may be an integral part of clinical practice, the work of those in psychiatric practice in teaching and mental hospitals should be included in the total sum of the nation's research, but this cannot be measured in exact financial terms, nor described as a specific research programme. Certain London teaching hospitals, for example, have active neuro-psychiatric units to which research fellows, supported by endowment funds, are appointed by the hospitals themselves. Research of this kind is also supported at many other hospitals through Regional Hospital Boards. Expenditure within the National Health Service in this way is estimated at £25,000 for 1957. University psychiatric departments also make individual contributions to research in this subject.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, whilst welcoming the statement that the present expenditure is double that of the previous year, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount whether he is aware that it is still very much too small in relation to the need? Is he aware, for example, that the expenditure last year on research into schizophrenia was only £27,000, equal to about ½d. a year a head of the population, and that schizophrenia, in its chronic forms, claims more victims than any other disease, mental or physical? It costs £15 million a year to keep these people in hospital, although many of them are now thought to be curable. Is the noble Viscount further aware that the Report of the Medical Research Council, which he signed, indicates that, out of sixty-seven principal committees of the Council, none is concerned with mental health, and, out of sixty-three research units, only one is conducting basic research into the causes and treatment of mental illness? Is he aware that there is very serious public concern about this matter?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I do not think my noble and learned friend could be aware of all this at once. I think it is perhaps going a little far.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, would the noble Earl observe that the Answer, which was very informative, was an immensely long Answer; and surely the noble Lord asking the Question is entitled to cover the ground given in the Answer.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, if we cover all this ground at once, we shall cover no more ground to-day.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, while welcoming the noble and learned Viscount's information that there is to be a review of this subject, may I ask this question? Will the review include the possibility of the Medical Research Council making a grant to the Mental Health Research Fund, to which the noble Viscount referred, in view of the fact that the Ford Foundation grant to that organisation is now, unfortunately, running out.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think the noble Lord must be aware that that is within the purview of the executive function of the Medical Research Council.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, whilst apologising for asking too many questions, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount to deal with the point that there is no mental health committee among the committees of the Medical Research Council, and only one research unit, which is mentioned in the Report that he signed?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, this is precisely the sort of question for which the Medical Research Council are responsible.

FORMOSA AND THE PESCADORES
3.13 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether seeing that (1) in their view Formosa and the Pescadores are territory the de jure sovereignty of which is uncertain and undetermined; and (2) that, in the opinion of the United States Government as expressed by the Secretary of State, Mr. Dean Acheson, on 6th January, 1950, whatever sort of China was recognised by the United States Formosa should be regarded as part of it; they will consider the advisability of suggesting to the United States joint submission of the legal aspects of the aforesaid conflicting views to the International Court of Justice as the principal judicial organ of the United Nations.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, it is the view of Her Majesty's Government that no useful purpose could be served in the circumstances of this case by pursuing the course suggested by the noble Viscount.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I thank the noble Marquess for his Answer. Is he aware that five years ago in this House I said that Formosa would eventually fall into the lap of China? What odds is the noble Marquess prepared to lay me against that eventuality happening?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, when I was at school I was a bookmaker, a very lucrative profession. Since then I have given up betting.

EGYPT: HARDSHIP OF EXPELLED BRITONS
3.14 p.m.
LORD KILLEARN: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government (1) whether they are aware that their continuing failure to provide adequate reparation for British subjects expelled from Egypt is causing lasting ruin of many of their lives, future hopes and fortunes; and (2) whether, in the light of the significantly revealed unease of this House, they would now consider the following scales of payment as being more equitable than those announced in this House on 30th October and which would take account of the criticisms made during the debate on 12th November.

Claims

Percentage of Advance

Up to £E.1,000

80

next £E.4,000 (from £E.1,001 to £E.5,000)

75

next £E.5,000 (from £E.5,001 to £E.10,000)

70

next £E.15,000 (from £E.10,001 to £E.25,000

65

next £E.25,000 (from £E.25,001 to £E.50,000)

60

next £E.50,000 (from £E.50,001 to £E.100,000)

50

Surplus in excess of £E.100,000

Subject to discussion.]

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord amended his Question late last night by making what are in effect detailed suggestions for the expenditure of public money after I had told him that Her Majesty's Government could not consider the matter in time to give an Answer to the latter part of his Question to-day. As I explained on the November 12, Her Majesty's Government have taken a whole series of measures designed to relieve hardship and to rehabilitate all classes among those who were expelled, and I cannot accept the general implication in the noble Lord's Question that these measures have proved ungenerous or inequitable. There could in any event be no question of further revising the scales of payment while the last extensions so recently announced are being put into effect, and as was made clear in the recent debate Her Majesty's Government are not prepared at the present stage of the matter
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to depart from the principle of advances against tangible assets. Her Majesty's Government continue to be prepared to receive details of cases of hardship or suggestions for the improvement of the scheme. I must add that I would myself consider that the form of the noble Lord's amended Question raises serious constitutional issues upon which it would be improper for me to attempt to pronounce finally at the last minute. But I must not be taken to endorse the view that the submission of detailed proposals of this kind for the expenditure of public moneys should be put forward by means of a Starred Question, or by a private Member, or in this House of Parliament.
LORD KILLEARN: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble and learned Viscount for his very learned reply. Of course, I am not qualified on the constitutional issue—I am a comparative new-comer to your Lordships' House. But I would, in the form of a question, remind the noble Viscount of what the Leader of the House said in the debate on November 12, when he moved that Lord Lloyd's Motion should be rejected, as in fact it was. He said of the Motion, if I may quote [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 212 (No. 8), col. 494]:
"We should have to reject it for the time being"—
that was the point—
"so as to think about the great principles"—
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords on a point of order, I really think that the noble Lord must try to frame what he has to say in the form of a question. He has made no such attempt. He is simply presenting an argument. There must be some interrogative form in a supplementary question.
LORD KILLEARN: But I did make it in the form of a question.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Then I do not know what the question is.
LORD KILLEARN: I did put it in the form of a question—"may I remind him?". Is that a question?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I think it is well-established that that form is not an interrogative form.
LORD KILLEARN: Then may I vary it and say: Is it not the fact that the Leader of the House, in the debate on

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November 12, used these words when he moved the rejection of Lord Lloyd's Motion:
"we should have to reject it for the time being"—
that is the point I want to emphasise—
"so as to think about the great principles which are raised."
To-day is December 11. So that was a month ago. Am I not in order, on the basis of that statement, in making certain suggestions which, one would hope, were helpful in the direction of great thoughts on this subject? Before I sit down, I should like to revert, in the form of a question, to the first part of my original Question, in which I asked whether the Government are aware that their continuing failure to provide adequate reparation, and so on, has led to the ruin of the lives and fortunes of many of the residents in Egypt. I do not think that the noble Viscount answered that point. Are Her Majesty's Government aware that that is so?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think the noble Lord will see when he reads Hansard that I did answer that. What he is really seeking to do is to redebate the question by way of a supplementary question.
LORD KILLEARN: No, I am not.
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount a question arising out of my noble friend's question? May I first of all ask the noble Viscount whether the Government have taken any note of the very strong expression of unease manifested in this House on the occasion of that debate? Secondly, may I ask the noble Viscount whether there is to be no future reconsideration of the scale of payments? Finally, may I ask him whether or not the Government are prepared, notwithstanding the form in which this scale has been put down, to consider the scale put forward by my noble friend?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: There are three supplementary questions there. On the first, I would say that of course the Government take note of everything that is said in the House, including the result of the Division. The second one was?
LORD LLOYD: The second was: How long has the existing scale to be in
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operation before the Government realise that it is no good?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: That is a supplementary question of which I do not accept the implications. It does not seem to arise out of either the original Answer or the Question.
LORD LLOYD: Would the noble Viscount answer the third question?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Would the noble Lord also remind me of the third question?
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, I do not know how many times I have to put it in the form of a question, but for the third time I ask the noble Viscount: will Her Majesty's Government take note of the proposals put forward by my noble friend?—although the noble Viscount suggests, for some reason which I am not at all clear about, that it was improper for my noble friend to put them forward.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: The noble Lord has secured by the form of his question that we have all taken note of it.
LORD KILLEARN: My Lords, might I ask one further supplementary question before I sit down—namely, does the noble Viscount confirm what he said in the debate on July 23 [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 211 (No. 98), col. 127]:
"that the Government take a very serious view of their responsibility in this as in other matters."
Does the noble Viscount confirm that they continue to take a very serious view of this matter?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, we certainly took a very serious view of cur responsibilities in this, as in other matters, and I see no reason to depart from that.
LORD KILLEARN: Then in fact the noble and learned Viscount confirms it.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, arising out of the first Answer of the noble and learned Viscount, one likes to get things clear. May I ask whether he does not agree that this is the constitutional position: your Lordships are entitled to express any opinion you care to, on any financial matter whatsoever, but you may be on dangerous ground if you proceed to a Resolution. The noble Lord's Question is framed in such a manner that if

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Her Majesty's Government acceded to and agreed with the proposal there put forward, it would be tantamount to binding the Government to a Resolution in another place. That is what leads to difficulty and prevents an answer. But on the general constitutional position I should like the noble and learned Viscount to confirm that what is stated in the first part of my question is correct.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, it was exactly that thought, which my noble friend has so well expressed, that was passing through my mind. As I told the House in my original Answer, this was brought to my attention in amended form last night, after any kind of advice was available to me, and I am bound to say that I do not think a matter raising an issue of this kind should have been put on the Order Paper of this House at such short notice.
LORD KILLEARN: My Lords, I do not want to speak again, but in view of what my noble friend has just said, I feel that I owe the noble and learned Viscount an apology for having put up so late, I admit, a matter which has raised a constitutional issue. I can only say that it was put through the proper channels.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Lord. I hope that I did not convey the impression that I had any kind of personal resentment, but I am put in a difficult position when matters of this kind are put in at a very late stage—matters which I might be rebuked for treating in such a way as to create a precedent.

NAVY, ARMY AND AIR FORCE RESERVES BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
3.24 p.m.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 35 be suspended until the House adjourns for the Recess at Christmas for the purpose of giving Government Business
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(except with the consent of the Government) precedence over other Notices and Orders of the Day, and that Standing Order No. 41 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be suspended for the aforesaid period.—(The Earl of Home.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

PROMOTION OF PRIVATE BILLS
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That it is desirable that a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament be appointed to consider whether it is practicable to define the extent to which a Private Bill should seek to alter the powers or duties of persons other than the Promoter; and, if it is so practicable, to define the principles on which proposed Private Bill enactments that would alter the powers or duties of such persons should be allowed or disallowed; and to report what, if any, consequential changes should be made in the Standing Orders governing the practice and procedure of the two Houses of Parliament in regard to Private Bills.—(The Earl of Home.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, we are greatly obliged to the noble Earl for at last putting on the Paper a Motion which is the result of a debate we had many months ago and which we were promised would come very shortly after the debate. I want to say at once that I fully appreciate the difficulties which the noble Earl and the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, have had, and I am not condemning the noble Earl for the lateness of this Motion, which I accept has been put on the Paper as early as it was practicable to do so. I should like to say a word about the terms of this Motion. I saw it for the first time only late last night and was not able to make any comment on it, or even to consider it until this morning.
The House will remember that this Motion arises out of the debate which we had on the Kent County Council Bill, a very interesting measure in which that County Council sought to incorporate in private legislation a large number of powers which were sought, not on their own behalf but on behalf of a number of

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their subsidiary authorities. This was in accordance with the general practice that, for instance, a county council might seek powers on behalf of urban and rural districts, or even parish councils. I believe that most noble Lords agreed that it was convenient that that practice should be adopted, but the complaint was made that there was a growing tendency for it to be followed in an increasing form; and by the time the Kent County Council Bill came along they had produced a Bill of some hundreds of clauses which made it very difficult (I am giving the case that was put in that debate) for any Committee to give the Bill the proper and detailed examination which it ought to receive.
It was for that reason that it was eventually decided to reject most of the clauses of the Bill—certainly most of those which were seeking to obtain powers on behalf of subsidiary authorities; and it was as a result of the debate we had that, eventually, an assurance was given that an attempt would be made to set up a Joint Committee of both Houses to go into the whole question. Obviously no one could make a specific promise that such a Committee would be set up, because it depended on the agreement of another place. I hope that I have put the position quite fairly.
I had thought that the Committee was to consider the general policy, the desirability, as well as the practicability, of one authority or body seeking powers on behalf of another. If we accept the view which I think was taken by most noble Lords, that it is a good thing that county councils should be able to seek powers on behalf of, say, a rural district, I agree that there is not much point in asking the Joint Committee to go into it. But I do not understand now that that is wholly accepted. If it had been accepted at the time, a large number of the clauses which were deleted from the Kent County Council Bill would not have been so deleted. They were deleted on the understanding that at present it was not desirable that one body should seek powers on behalf of another.
I want to say a short word on the merits of this matter, because I certainly take the view that it is strongly desirable that they should be able to follow this
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practice. I should have hoped that the purpose of any Committee set up to consider this question would be to find out how far Promoters of the Bills should be allowed to go, and in what way an abuse of that principle might be prevented. There are some county councils, Yorkshire and Lancashire, for instance, which have a very large number of subsidiary authorities. Where subsidiary authorities seek certain powers it would be very undesirable—and very expensive—if each one had to promote legislation on its own. I believe that it has been regarded for many years as a reasonable thing for a county council to promote such legislation on behalf of its subsidiary authorities.
The whole thing has now been thrown into the melting pot, however, as a result of the proceedings on the Kent County Council Bill, and I feel that it is important to get a decision on whether this practice is desirable, and that the whole question should be referred to the Joint Committee for them to consider whether it is desirable to give one body powers to promote legislation on behalf of another. I do not want unduly to widen the Committee's terms of reference, because I believe there is some urgency about this matter. Before local authorities promote their legislation for next Session they will want to know what they are going to be allowed to do, and whether or not they are to be permitted to have legislation on behalf of other bodies. For these reasons, while accepting the reason for the delay, I must say that I regret it, because it means that this Joint Committee will have to work under some pressure.
A number of my noble friends (and I associate myself entirely with them) take the view that it would be desirable to consider as well the whole question of private legislation and the enormous cost to promote it. I do not want to enlarge on the matter, but it is a very costly thing to promote legislation, and, of course, if it is going to be required that no body should be allowed to obtain legislation on behalf of another, that cost will be tremendously increased. I understand that there was a Committee some two years ago (of which my noble friend Lord Latham was a member as was, I understand, the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, himself), which went into the question of expense. I believe that they came to certain conclusions; but I do not know how far those conclusions have

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been operated, if at all, or whether the cost of promoting Bills has been materially reduced. I believe that the matter of duplicating documents instead of printing them was involved, but the cost of publishing the proceedings is not the primary item. Perhaps we could be told how far that Committee's Report and recommendations have been acted on and how far they are still matters which it is proposed to deal with in future.
However, my primary purpose in saying a word on this matter is to ask two questions. One is: does the noble Earl who has moved the Motion consider that the terms of this Motion will enable the Joint Committee to consider the question of the desirability of one body seeking legislation for another? And, secondly, can he give us an assurance that, so far as he can influence matters, this Joint Committee will report in sufficient time to affect legislation of these bodies in the forthcoming Session?
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I believe that I can give a short illustration an reply to the first part of what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, which is very much to the point. When I was a young man I was a member of a club which served caviare for 8d., in the days when you could get good caviare. One day a new member who had discovered this ate a whole pot of caviare and then complained that he was charged 4s. (which was the cost of a pot) on the bill for his lunch, and he made a complaint to the committee. After that the other members ceased to be able to have caviare for 8d. I think that that is precisely what has happened over the Kent County Council Bill.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I have heard that analogy with some interest. I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and, like him, I am glad that this Joint Committee has at last been arranged. He asked me for an assurance that the terms of reference would enable the Committee to consider the desirability of a local authority legislating for other bodies. I would assure him that I was very anxious, and I think we have achieved, that the terms of reference should enable the Committee to consider just that and, indeed, other questions of that sort, such as how far a local authority should be allowed to go and (I think
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his words were) how could abuse be prevented. I am quite certain that the terms of reference can include those questions. I think that on the further question—the whole question of expense of promotion of private Bills—if the noble Lord opposite would allow me to, I should like to enlist the help of my noble friend the Lord Chairman of Committees to answer, because he is better informed upon it than I am.
3.35 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): My Lords, if I may add a few words to what has just fallen from the noble Earl the Leader of the House I would say, with great respect to the noble Lord opposite, that I think he has himself answered some of the questions which he raised. For example, he dealt with the question of the promise that he said was made that a Joint Committee would be set up. I should like to say a word on that matter, because I think it could rightly be said that if anybody made a promise it was myself. I would point out to the noble Lord (as I think he himself said later in his speech) that, of course, any promise made by a Member of this House of action on the part of another place is really invalid and in fact could not be made. I think that the noble Earl has answered the first of the noble Lord's questions.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, perhaps I might intervene to ask the noble Lord just to carry the matter a stage further. I find it difficult to understand how, if a Committee is set up to consider the practicability of the question, that also includes consideration of the desirability; or is the desirability assumed? It seems to me that they are two quite separate matters. Before one considers whether a thing is practicable one surely wants to make up one's mind whether it is desirable; and I see nothing in the terms of reference which enables the Committee to consider that. If I am assured that they are going to do so I shall not be too "sticky" about the exact wording, but it is not there.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I really think that the noble Lord's fears are unfounded, but I will do my best, nevertheless, to give him an answer to his question. May I first

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say, so far as it concerns me, that I apologise for the shortness of the time allowed in putting down this Motion, but we have been most anxious to finish the matter before the Recess. If the noble Lord looks at the Motion he will see that it is divided into two parts and that it poses two questions: first, is it practicable; and, second, if it is practicable, then how far should it be allowed. I should like to draw particular attention to the word "should" in the third line from the end of the Motion. So the Committee, as I understand it, after hearing evidence, will first of all decide whether the method of procedure which the noble Lord so strongly advocates is indeed practicable. May I say here, without anticipating too much, that it is by no means certain that it is practicable to the extent envisaged. But assuming that the Committee have first decided that it is practicable, then they are enjoined by the terms of reference,
"to define the principles upon which proposed Private Bill enactments that would alter the powers or duties of such persons should be allowed or disallowed."
I contend that the words "should be allowed or disallowed" give the Committee full power and full scope to report to the House as to whether it is desirable to do this. If they do not, I would certainly try again; but I really believe they do; and I again emphasise the importance of the word "should".
As to the time in which the Committee can report, it is, as the noble Lord will appreciate, extremely difficult to foresee how long this work is going to take. I think that the number of witnesses will probably not be very great; but, on the other hand, I have no doubt that there will be some very important bodies that will wish to give evidence, and as we all know from previous experience, it takes a good deal of time to prepare statements of evidence on the part of bodies which represent branches or divisions all over England and Wales. So we shall have to be patient. I appreciate the noble Lord's anxiety that the Report of this Committee should be available in time for the drafting of next year's Private Bills, which are to be deposited in November, 1959, to feel the impact of the Report. Having got into a little trouble over one promise, I should hesitate very much to give any further
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promise, and I am bound to say I am not at all sure that they will be able to report in time. I am sure that the House would rather have a full complete and weighty Report than a hurried one which lacked those qualities.
In conclusion, I would say a word about the Joint Committee on Private Bills which, as has been mentioned already, sat about two years ago, and of which I was a member. The Report of that Committee is available. The noble Lord asked what has been done to carry out the recommendations of that Report with regard to the cost of Private Bill legislation. Something has been done. I am not prepared to say that a great deal has been done. The Committee's recommendations on expenses, if they had been fully carried out, would not have resulted in a great diminution of the figure, but I know from experience that something has been done, particularly about the cost of printing Bills, about the question of whether they should be printed or typed and whether Acts of Parliament should be printed on vellum or otherwise. A Committee of your Lordships' House have sat on the latter question and reported upon it.
3.42 p.m.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, whilst of course accepting without reservation the honesty and belief of the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees, that he thinks the Motion on the Order Paper discharges the undertaking, which on two occasions he gave your Lordships' House—that there should be an inquiry, in the words of the noble Lord "into the principle relating to County Council Bills" (not the practicality: I quote from the OFFICIAL REPORT of July 29, col. 385)—the noble Lord will recall that he had earlier put down a Motion, which was carried in your Lordships' House, in the following terms:
"In the opinion of this House, the principle that a County Council Bill should not confer on local authorities or on any other authority or persons functions in which the county council has no interest should, pending any further inquiry …"
and so on. I take it that the Committee which it is intended to set up with the terms of reference as given on the Order Paper is the intended "further inquiry".
It really is difficult to understand how the governing consideration, which is

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whether a practice that has been in operation for something like thirty-seven years and has been operated, as is admitted by all sides, I think, without abuse, fairly and reasonably and to the great profit, both financial and otherwise, of local government in this country, should be summarily altered, as indeed it was, in the earlier part of this year. To invite the Committee to consider whether it is practicable, before they have considered and made up their mind on whether the practice is desirable, seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse.
Clearly it is practicable. The noble Lord the Chairman of Committees showed it to be practicable this summer. He cut out, or had cut out, of the Kent County Council Bill, the Surrey Bill and I think also the Essex Bill, a large number of clauses which were intended to confer powers upon subsidiary authorities in the three respective counties. It seems to me, with great respect, that there was no great difficulty in finding ways of doing what the noble Lord decided ought to be done earlier this summer. The real problem which is posed, and which was posed in the two debates we had on the subject, is: Is there a case for altering a practice which has been satisfactorily operated to the great advantage of local government for over thirty-seven years?
With great respect—and I have a great respect for the brilliant ability and the urbanity with which the noble Earl leads the House—I would say that the terms of the Motion on the Order Paper in his name really do not discharge the undertaking given by the Lord Chairman of Committees, to which I have referred and the terms of which I have quoted, and I hope that the Motion will be taken back for further consideration so that the dominating question of desirability or otherwise can first be considered.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I can speak a second time only by leave of the House, but if I have that leave, I should like to try to allay the fears of noble Lords opposite. May I begin by saying that on the question of time, if it so happens that the Report of the Committee is not available in time for the drafting of Private Bills for next November, then, I apprehend, they will be drafted in the same manner as they have been drafted during the last few years—that is, with the knowledge that some
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clauses which affect persons or authorities other than the promoters will probably be allowed. It should be borne in mind that there is no hard and fast rule about this in writing and that some clauses have been allowed. I am in a position to say here that in the Kent Bill some clauses that fall into that category were allowed. Your Lordships will remember that in the Motion which I moved last summer, the words "in general" appeared, and I held that they covered the possibility of allowing some of these clauses. The difficulty was that in the Kent County Council Bill the number of such clauses was so much greater than had ever before appeared in a Private Bill. I should say that if this Report is not available, the promoters of Bills will draft them in the manner in which they have been accustomed to draft them during the last few years.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, before the noble Lord leaves that point, may I ask him if he agrees with the view that some of the clauses were allowed and others disallowed, proving that there was a practical way of dealing with this matter?
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, that leads me to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Latham. He asks: Is there a case for altering the practice? I simply must remind your Lordships of what took place in the debate last summer. The crux of the whole debate, as I put it myself, was: which is the rule and which is the exception? I said that a certain practice was the rule, and that what I called "the Middlesex clauses" were the exception. The noble Lord, Lord Latham, took exactly the opposite view. He said that what I called the exception was the rule, and that what I called the rule was the exception. The argument was not resolved, except in a Division, and I can only say to-day that it would not be profitable to have the same argument on that point all over again. We must leave it at that.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that that is precisely the point which the Committee should consider and report upon? Thai is the kernel of the whole issue.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I entirely agree with that last point. I contend that

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without doubt the terms of reference not only enable the Committee to deal with that point but, indeed, invite them to do so.
3.50 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I too can say a few words only with the consent of the House. Assuming, like the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, that I have it, I would merely say that it looks as if we are in agreement as to what we want this Committee to do. We on this side of the House feel uneasy about the wording of the Motion, and we still feel that it does not carry out what we all have in mind. If it were merely a matter between the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, and myself, I should be content to take his word for it and let it go. But I think it is as well that we have the terms of reference right and acceptable. After all, this was an assurance given to the whole House, and I think that the whole House should feel that the terms of reference carry out what we all have in mind. Is there any urgency about this matter until Tuesday? I would suggest that we leave it on the Paper and do not settle it to-day. The noble Earl the Leader of the House might then again look at the terms of reference, in the light of our talks, and we will do that, too. I do not want to put down an Amendment and have a debate on it; that would be most undesirable. Possibly there might be discussion on Tuesday, but it need not be lengthy. In that way perhaps we can get a Motion on which we can all agree.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I should not have allowed the Motion on the Paper to be down in my name unless I had satisfied myself, with my colleagues in another place, as well as those here, that it covered the kind of questions which the noble Lords, Lord Silkin and Lord Latham, have asked should be covered. I personally am quite satisfied that it does. However. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that in an important matter like this we should all feel that that is so; and, therefore, if it is proper and practicable, we can leave it on the Paper. I will have further consultations with my colleagues to make absolutely certain that the points are covered, and we can return to the matter on Tuesday and pass the Motion then.
LORD FARINGDON: My Lords, could the noble Earl give me some in-
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formation? Am I right in thinking that a dissident minority of this Committee would not be in order in producing and submitting a Minority Report?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I should like Notice of that question, and perhaps the noble Lord will ask it again on Tuesday. My noble friend Lord Merthyr says that it would be in order, but perhaps that can be confirmed when the Motion is confirmed on Tuesday. If it is convenient to the House, I think the best thing will be for the Motion to be withdrawn and to have it put down again on Tuesday.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND TRUST ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Read 3ª (according to Order), and passed.
NORTH OF SCOTLAND ELECTRI CITY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Read 3ª (according to Order), and passed.
SOCIETY IN SCOTLAND FOR PROPAGATING CHRISTIAN KNOWLEDGE ORDER CON FIRMATION BILL.
Read 3ª (according to Order), and passed.

LACE INDUSTRY (SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH LEVY) ORDER, 1958
3.54 p.m.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Dundee, I beg to move that this Order be approved. This modest Order continues the state of affairs that has existed since 1949, whereby a levy is raised upon the members of the lace industry in order to provide a fund for industrial and scientific research. This 1958 Order increases the amount of the levy from some £10,000 to £16,350, and it also slightly modifies the method in which the levy should be collected from the six branches of the industry. This Order has the approval

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of all the interested sections of the industry, and I commend it for your Lordships' approval.
Moved, That the Draft Lace Industry (Scientific Research Levy) Order, 1958, be approved.—(Earl Bathurst.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT COMMISSION REGULATIONS, 1958
3.55p.m.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I beg to move that these regulations be approved. At first sight, these regulations, as with all regulations, may seem to be formidable, but I can assure your Lordships that this is not so. In another place on Tuesday last my right honourable friend's detailed and clear explanation was received with favour on both sides of the House. Many noble Lords will be experienced in local government affairs and will know that the conditions in many areas of the country are by no means satisfactory for effective and convenient local government to be carried on. The problem of county boundaries, borough boundaries and special areas has long been recognised, and in 1945 a permanent Boundary Commission was set up in an effort to resolve these difficulties. They were to have reported direct to Parliament, but this proved to be not practicable.
The 1958 Act sets up two separate Commissions, one for England and one for Wales—that is, for England excluding the Greater London Area, which is the subject of a separate Commission. The two Commissions will examine and consider the special review areas which have been laid down in the 1958 Act, and will consider the ordinary review areas which they themselves will designate, as they see fit. The findings and recommendations for each review area will be reported by the Commissions to the Minister. Full local discussion and consultation will have taken place in those areas before the Commission's Report reaches the Minister. Before the Minister makes his decision and his order, the Commission's Report will have been publicly circulated in the review area, and objections can be raised before a public inquiry. The Minister will then make his order giving effect to the Com-
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mission's proposals, with or without any amendments, and they must be presented with the Report to both Houses of Parliament. Any order becomes effective only after the assent of both Houses.
The Commission for England has already been appointed under the chairmanship of Sir Henry Hancock. By the end of this month the Commission hope to be able to announce their programme for the review of one of the special review areas (which are, of course, the five conurbations in England). If any of your Lordships is able to supply me with a better word than "conurbation", I make the solemn promise that I will never use that word in your Lordships' House again. They also have to divide the rest of England into ordinary review areas, which will be approximately the size of two or more geographical counties, as they see fit.
The Commission's problems, your Lordships will realise, are not light ones: in fact, I think they are rather similar to those facing a serious racegoer who has been commissioned by a sporting relative to select a winner in a particular race. The Commissions will have to assess the chances of a great many runners, and out of a big field they will know that only one horse will win the race. As on all racecourses, a great deal of free advice no doubt will be readily given, and it may be that that advice will not necessarily emanate from the stables. It is an unwise punter who pays no attention to the form book. It is for those reasons that my right honourable friend has provided these regulations: that they should be a guide and a yardstick to the Commissions in their deliberations. The Commissions would be rash to pay no attention to these regulations, but nevertheless good local stable information, should the Commissions gain it, may well turn up the result for them for the day.
I would draw your Lordships' attention to Regulation No. 7, which states the nine factors which are generally agreed to be the criteria for reviewing effective and efficient local government. I should also like to draw your Lordships' attention to Regulation No. 11, which warns the Commission to have due regard to the development plan and to the availability of a planning consent, which may or may not

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exist when they are dealing with the controversial problem of incorporation of part of a county area within a possible new county borough boundary.
These regulations have the broad agreement, in principle, of the local authority associations, and were approved on both sides when my right honourable friend brought them to the notice of another place. Objections are safeguarded by the new arrangement for public inquiries. The resulting orders for each review area must receive the assent of both Houses of Parliament before they can take effect. I commend these regulations to your Lordships and I beg to move.
Moved, That the Local Government Commission Regulations, 1958, be approved.—(Earl Bathurst.)
4.3 p.m.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, the noble Earl has submitted these regulations in an attractive form and with some happy, if not quite correct, allusions to the disposition of the Minister of Housing and Local Government towards the racecourse, gambling and bookmaking. I must say that my rather long association with the Minister of Housing and Local Government never led me to believe that he possessed those attractive inclinations.
As the noble Earl has said, these are regulations made under the Local Government Act of this year. Your Lordships will recall that we on this side opposed that Bill. We took the view that it was misconceived, and that in any case it was inadequate in its structure and in its proposals to deal in a proper and necessary way with the reorganisation in some fundamental respects of local government. However, the Bill became an Act. The Government, as it were, abdicated their functions of resolving this long outstanding and difficult problem by passing it on to Commissions, of which there are to be three—a Royal Commission, which is already sitting and in action concerning Greater London; one for England, which has been appointed, and one for Wales, which I believe is likely shortly to be appointed.
These regulations, notwithstanding what the noble Earl has said, are formiblable. They are fairly detailed and
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fairly comprehensive. In short, they are a kind of instruction to the Commissions on how to do their job, and the application of some of the desiderata will, I am quite sure from my own experience of local government, lead to quite a number of "headaches" for the members of the Commissions. Indeed, it seems to me that moving about intellectually amidst this maze of factors and considerations may well become a hazardous occupation for the Commission.
The noble Earl referred to Regulation No. 7, with its nine factors, some of them contradictory, some of them conflicting, some related, and others unrelated. I can imagine the kind of meeting and proceedings at the meeting which will go on when the Commission is seeking to determine what are the wishes of the inhabitants in any particular local government area, or what the views of the Commission may be when those responsible for the administration of a local authority district take the view that its administration is excellent, first-class—"no changes needed here, plenty of changes needed elsewhere, but not with us." Local government is a complicated matter, as members of the Commissions will no doubt realise very shortly.
There is, however, one point that I should like to raise which is of importance. The noble Earl made reference to the Local Government Boundary Commission which was appointed in 1945. That Commission had terms of reference not dissimilar from some of the references contained in the Local Government Act. It, too, was the recipient of directives or regulations, although not quite so comprehensive and detailed as those on the Paper this afternoon. But the Boundary Commission had the right—and, indeed, was required—to present its Report to Parliament, whereas the Commissions appointed, or intended to be appointed, under the Act of 1958 are required to submit their Reports to the Minister; and the Minister, when he makes an order is required to submit the Report to Parliament. But, so far as I can see (if there is any provision I should be glad if the noble Earl would indicate where it is to be found), there is no provision in the Act of 1958, whether in Section 23 or elsewhere, which requires the Minister to make an order; and if the Minister does not make an order then the Report of the Commission is not

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brought before Parliament. It may be for the very reason that the Minister does not propose to make an order that the Report which, presumably, he declines to adopt should be made available to Parliament, and Parliament should have some knowledge of its contents.
In my submission, this deficiency is the more significant if one refers to the last regulation on the Paper—namely, Regulation 22, which says:
"Before submitting their report on their review of any area in relation to which the Minister has not given any direction under subsection (2) or subsection (3) of section 22 of the Act requiring observations, or a separate report, on any specified matter, the Commission shall inquire whether the Minister proposes to give any such direction, and the Minister shall give any direction he desires to give within four weeks of such inquiry."
I should like to ask the noble Earl: Are the required observations of the Minister to be available to Parliament? Is the separate report which the Minister can call for under Regulation 22 to be available to Parliament? Is Parliament to know of the directions which the Minister, under this regulation, issues to the Commissioners in connection with any particular review area? The whole thing is rather disturbing; Parliament may be denied the information which it should have upon the reorganisation and tidying-up of local government as the result of the surveys of these Commissions. As the noble Earl will know, the Minister can vary the Report of a Commission. The Minister can modify the directions and [he regulations; and all that can be done without Parliament being informed at all—unless the Minister makes an order. If the Minister does not make an order, as I see it, there is no obligation on him to submit the Reports of the Commissioners to Parliament.
Moreover, whilst one is encouraged to know, as indeed one expected, that the Minister has discussed these regulations with the local authority associations—and. I believe, by and large, has got their acceptance of them—there is no indication that in regard to any further directions which the Minister may issue under Regulation 22 he will consult with the local authorities. I agree that it may well be that some of the directives which he issues relate to particular single individual
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local authorities; and in such cases there would be no point in discussing the matter with the local authority associations. Nevertheless, I should think that most of the directions issued, under Regulation 22 or otherwise, will be of a general character, and it would be reassuring to know. if that be the case, that with the proceedings of these Commissioners, the Minister will do what he has done before he settled and finally submitted the regulations which are now before your Lordships' House, namely, consult the local authorities.
Apart from those one or two rather general observations, I would merely add this comment. I am sure that whatever view we may take as to the proposals in the Act, we should all like to wish the Commissioners the best of luck in what will prove, as they will find, a pretty arduous task. It is an unhappy circumstance that in 1958 we should not have proposals which would have achieved a thoroughgoing, properly balanced reorganisation of local government, and the most that we can hope for from the work of the Commissioners, however devoted it may be, is, I suppose, that there will be some reasonable tidying-up of local government in this country. We on these Benches shall not, of course, oppose the passage of the regulations.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord opposite for his kind remarks with regard to these regulations, knowing full well how the noble Lord feels with regard to the 1958 Act. I want to thank him for his kind remarks especially with regard to the two Commissions which will shortly be sitting and, of course, the Royal Commission which is already sitting. With regard to the question which he raised about the possibility of debating in Parliament the Report and the order, I would say that if the Minister makes an order then of course a Report must have been made, and that Report is bound to come before Parliament. If, however, for one reason or another, the Minister decides not to make an order, then the conditions in that particular review area will stay exactly as they are and there will be no change.
LORD LATHAM: And nobody will know why.
EARL BATHURST: There will have been public inquiries over the objections which will have made it impossible, presumably, for an order to be made, and therefore all reasons will no doubt be clearly known. There is, therefore, no reason why a Report should necessarily be brought before Parliament if no order is made. There is again no reason why a question with regard to the Report should not be asked in the normal way in either House. I think that that has really answered the two points that the noble Lord brought forward, and again I know your Lordships will join me in wishing good luck and Godspeed to these Commissions in the most difficult task they have before them. I beg to move.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

DRAFT INTERNATIONAL SUGAR COUNCIL (IMMUNITIES AND PRIVILEGES) ORDER, 1958
4.17 p.m.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Lansdowne, has been unavoidably detained by urgent and important business elsewhere, and I understand that he has arranged through the usual channels that the moving of this Order should be postponed until Monday. He has asked me to say on his behalf how sincerely he regrets it if he has caused any noble Lord, wherever he sits in the House, any inconvenience; but it was unavoidable.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL
Read 3ª (according to Order), and passed.
House adjourned at nineteen minutes past four o'clock.