Sitting of 28 May 1957

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Great College Street and King George V Memorial
    Mr. Nairnasked the Minister of Works whether he will take powers to clear away all the dilapidated buildings between Great College Street and the King George V Memorial, with the exception of the recently reconstructed Jewel Tower, and make the area into a public park; and his estimate of the cost of this undertaking.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. Hugh Molson): As all the houses between Great College Street and the King George V Memorial are owned by my Department or by the Crown Estate Commission, there is no need to seek statutory powers. I am anxious to effect an improvement on this important site and I shall make a statement to the House when I am in a position to do so.
    Mr. Nairn: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that if that could be carried out it would complete the setting for Westminster Abbey and the Houses of Parliament, and probably make it one of the most beautiful sites in the whole of the world?
    Mr. Molson: I am extremely glad to hear my hon. Friend express that view. It is a great opportunity, which I hope we shall be able to take.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Can the Minister say what bodies he proposes to consult before reaching a conclusion?
    Mr. Molson: I would rather not. Consultations are taking place at the moment.

  PALACE OF WESTMINSTER

    New palace Yard
    Mr. Farey-Jonesasked the Minister of Works when he will resume the work of rebuilding the New Palace Yard Arcade.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Harmar Nicholls): It is hoped to start rebuilding this Arcade during the next few months.
    Mr. Farey-Jones: Can my hon. Friend say whether it will be necessary to close the covered way?
    Mr. Nicholls: No, it will not be necessary to close it. A narrow footpath will be left; but the work is quite extensive and it will take some time.
    Mr. Partridgeasked the Minister of Works if he will demolish the brick buildings at the entrance to New Palace Yard.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: Plans are being prepared for a new taxi light and police shelter so that these brick buildings can be demolished. It will probably not be possible to carry out the major part of the work until the long Recess of 1958.
    Mr. Partridge: Can my hon. Friend tell us what work, if any, will be carried out in this Summer Recess? It is a long time until 1958.
    Mr. Nicholls: This is work that has to be confined to the long Recess. I think that the taxi light, which is part of the work, may possibly be done in the Recess of 1957. The remainder will, I think, be done in the long Recess of 1958.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Why is it necessary to wait until the long Recess to demolish the eyesores which exist and which have been there since the war? Is not it possible for the work to be done before the long Recess of 1958?
    Mr. Nicholls: The work is not just that of demolishing the existing buildings. New ones will have to be built and new lights fitted. It is rather better to have the whole thing planned and carried out at one fell swoop. That, I think, is the considered view.

    Courtyards
    Wing Commander Bullusasked the Minister of Works if he is aware of the poor condition of many of the courtyards in the Palace of Westminster; and when he proposes to repair them.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: I agree that some improvement in the condition of a number of courtyards is needed. Royal Court will be resurfaced in the long Recess. We hope to find money for other courtyards in subsequent years.
    Wing Commander Bullus: Will my hon. Friend ensure that the condition of New Palace Yard is not allowed to deteriorate, in view of the heavy volume of traffic which it has to carry?
    Mr. Nicholls: The surface of New Palace Yard has been attended to quite recently, and it will be looked at as and when necessary, but there is no suggestion at the moment of completely resurfacing it—certainly not until the work on the Arcade, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. Farey-Jones) referred, is completed.

    Westminster Hall (Lighting)
    Mr. du Cannasked the Minister of Works whether he is satisfied that the hammer-beam roof in Westminster Hall is properly illuminated by the existing lighting arrangements; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The lighting fittings in Westminster Hall include floodlights directed at the roof and these can be switched on by the control engineer at the request of any hon. Member.
    Mr. du Cann: While thanking my hon. Friend for that information, may I ask him whether he would agree that it is a pity that the full beauties of this magnificent hall, which is the finest of its kind in Europe, if not in the whole world, go very largely unseen and unappreciated because these lights are so rarely switched on'? Could not he make an arrangement whereby they can be kept on permanently so that visitors will be able to see the roof and appreciate it fully?
    Mr. Nicholls: I agree that the beauties of the roof should be easily seen. That is why the lights are fitted. The reason for not leaving the lights on the whole of the time is one of economy. It would
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    cost about £100 a year. They can be switched on by asking for extension 800 at any time, if any hon. Member wants that to happen.
    Mr. Ede: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that in both design and execution, this is the greatest monument to English craftsmanship that we possess, and should not it be made continually available to view, particularly by visitors, to give them some idea of the beauty of this piece of English craftsmanship—[An HON. MEMBER: "British."]—no, English. It has a connection with Chaucer, who was Clerk of Works when it was put up. This is one of the great heritages common to our-selves and the Americans, because it was built before they left.
    Mr. Nicholls: I accept all that the right hon. Gentleman has said. This is a great heritage, and it is right that we should make it easy for people to see. The question here is whether or not the lights should be left permanently switched on. We do not see the need for that, but we have made arrangements whereby they can be switched on without delay.

  SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH

    National Physical Laboratory (Electronic Computer)
    Mr. Farey-Jonesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what use is made of the National Physical Laboratory's electronic digital calculators in the public service; and what revenue is earned from work done for outside bodies.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The National Physical Laboratory's electronic digital computer, the "DEUCE ", in addition to its use on the research programme of the National Physical Laboratory and other D. S. I. R. stations, provides a service for other Government Departments, including the Admiralty and the Ordnance Survey. In addition it has been used for work for the Atomic Energy Authority, for private industry and for universities; the revenue earned from these bodies amounted to £17,700 in the financial year 1955–56 and £9,500 in the year 1956–57.
    Mr. Farey-Jones: Could my hon. Friend say whether the all-in revenue

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    represents any diminution in the service? Surely, he appreciates that such machines should be kept constantly occupied?
    Mr. Nicholls: Yes, we do, indeed, appreciate the need to see that they are fully used, and I think that the reason why the service has fallen off over the last twelve months is that our erstwhile customers have purchased digital computers of their own. I suppose that that is really a compliment to "DEUCE" and its predecessor, "ACE".

    Research (Co-ordination)
    Mr. Partridgeasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, in view of the competing claims on the limited scientific manpower of this country made by defence and civilian research, if the Government will set up an executive body to study and direct the nation's organisation for scientific research and development in all fields.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: As explained by the Prime Minister in answer to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) on 31st January, complex machinery already exists for coordinating the national scientific research effort. The position is constantly watched but my noble Friend is not satisfied that it is necessary to establish a new organisation of the type suggested.
    Mr. Partridge: Will my hon. Friend ask his noble Friend to give this matter constant attention?
    Mr. Nicholls: I can assure my hon. Friend that my noble Friend is aware of the importance of this, and will keep it very clearly under review.
    Dr. Stross: Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell the House how many members of the Cabinet have had any scientific education?
    Mr. Nicholls: That is a question of which I should want notice.

    European Organisation for Nuclear Research
    Wing Commander Bullusasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, whether the European Organisation for Nuclear
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    Research has yet announced a research programme; and whether Her Majesty's Government has suggested any particular problems for study.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: No research programme has yet been announced. The full research resources of the Organisation will only become available when the two accelerators are completed. The smaller accelerator is expected to be in operation late this summer. Full-scale research on it should commence by the end of the year and a research programme is now being worked out. Her Majesty's Government have suggested some problems for study.
    Wing Commander Bullus: Would the Minister say who is responsible for agreeing the programme?
    Mr. Nicholls: The working out of the research programme is the responsibility of the Director-General, but he has the advice, on the Scientific Policy Committee, of many eminent scientists, who include Sir John Cockcroft and Professor Blackett from the United Kingdom.

    D.S.I.R. (Russian Scientific Papers)
    Mr. Mawbyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what progress has been made by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research in translating Russian scientific periodicals and providing a lending library service on them; and whether it will be prepared to translate scientific papers on request.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has ordered all the Russian scientific and technological books and periodicals which are available through commercial channels and, where possible, English translations of them, and is trying to obtain additional material on exchange. When sufficient material has been received a lending service will be started. The Department is continuing its small Co-operative Translations Scheme, under which the cost of a translation of a scientific paper is shared by those interested, and is considering the provision of a more comprehensive translation service.
    Mr. Mawby: Could my hon. Friend give any idea as to when it is expected that the lending service will be started, and could he say whether there will be any political difficulties about obtaining these publications?
    Mr. Nicholls: The service is well on the way now, and I do not think that we anticipate any difficulty in getting the exchange moving, because Russia is eager to have our publications and in order to get them there must be a real, live exchange.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Could the Parliamentary Secretary say whether any objection has been raised by the Foreign Secretary on the ground that these books and documents have been written by Communists or fellow-travellers?
    Mr. Nicholls: This matter has not yet come within the purview of the Foreign Office in that particular respect.

    International Geophysical Year (British Programme)
    Mr. Mawbyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, to what extent the British programme of research in the upper atmosphere, as part of our contribution to the International Geophysical Year, will be affected by the decision of the United States to defer the launching of her earth satellites.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The United States decision will no doubt be taken into consideration by the British National Committee which has been set up by the Royal Society to co-ordinate the British programme. As things stand at present the British programme is expected to proceed as planned.
    Mr. Mawby: In view of the Answer which was given to my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Partridge) on 14th May, does this mean that Russia alone will now be launching earth satellites?
    Mr. Nicholls: Several countries, including ourselves, intend to launch rockets of one kind or another. My recollection of the announcement from the United States is that they are merely delaying the launching of their satellite, not abandoning it.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Admiralty Compass Observatory, Ditton Park
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for War what services his Department receives from the Admiralty Compass Observatory, Ditton Park.
    The Under-Secretary of State for War (Mr. Julian Amery): We receive no direct services, but I understand that the Ministry of Supply has some development work done by the Observatory on equipment intended for the use of the Army.
    Mr. Brockway: Would not the Minister agree that the work which is done for the Ministry of Supply is of real value to his Department?
    Mr. Amery: The hon. Gentleman will realise that he is asking about the activities of a second cousin once or twice removed. All development work for the Army is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply, and the contribution made by the Compass Observatory is only a small part of the research upon and development of Army equipment.

    Territorial Army
    Mr. Mathewasked the Secretary of State for War what active steps are now being taken to encourage a continuing flow of volunteer recruits to the Territorial Army.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. John Hare): With the decision to abolish National Service in 1960, the Territorial Army will once again be the entirely volunteer organisation which it was before the war, and we hope that many young men and women will come forward. Meanwhile, we are devoting part of our normal recruiting resources to the Territorial Army and taking steps to secure the active co-operation of employers and the T. U. C. As in the past, we shall rely a great deal upon local good will and the recruiting activities of the units themselves.
    Mr. Mathew: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this reply will be received with great satisfaction by all ranks in the Territorial Army, and will he give an assurance that there will be a real and

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    really imaginative intensification of the recruiting campaign, now that the National Service entry is coming to an end?
    Mr. Hare: I thank my hon. Friend for what he has just said. I shall certainly never be complacent about the measures that we are taking to increase recruiting either for the Regular Army or for the Territorial Army. I can assure him that I shall do all I can to assist recruiting in both of these directions.
    Sir L. Ropner: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his Answer will not be received with any satisfaction by those who are interested in the Territorial Army? Is it not about time that it was made clear, if such is the case, that those in the Territorial Army will be employed as soldiers, and not in a civil capacity?
    Mr. Hare: I am sorry that my hon. and gallant Friend has said that. I think that I have made it absolutely clear—perhaps he did not hear my speech in the debate on the Army Estimates—that the Territorial Army is to be kept as a fighting force, and I have great confidence that it will carry out its duties with great success.
    Mr. Mathewasked the Secretary of State for War if he will consider making arrangements whereby all volunteer recruits to the Territorial Army, who sign on for a minimum period of four years' service as Territorials, will be exempted from National Service until further notice.
    Mr. John Hare: No, Sir. This would not help us to achieve our aim of a Territorial Army made up wholly of volunteers.
    Mr. Mathew: Will not my right hon. Friend re-examine this proposal in order to encourage a steady flow of volunteers: and discuss the matter with the Minister of Labour?
    Mr. Hare: I will certainly look at my hon. Friend's suggestion, but my own reaction is that if we want an all-volunteer Territorial Army it would be a mistake to have in it people who, as second choice to avoid National Service, had decided to do four years in the Territorials.
    Mr. Nairn: Before turning down this suggestion entirely, will my right hon.
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    Friend call to mind the considerable difficulties that we had in the Territorial Army in the 'thirties in getting sufficient recruits, and that with the further flow of National Service suddenly stopping it will take a great deal to re-introduce the voluntary spirit?
    Mr. Hare: I have said that I would be only too pleased to look at this suggestion, but I thought it only fair to my hon. Friend and to the House to give my first reactions.
    Sir L. Ropner: Can my right hon. Friend say whether there has recently been any improvement in recruiting for the Territorial Army?
    Mr. Hare: Yes. Although I have not got the actual figures, I am glad to say that I have been given to understand that in the last week or so there has been some improvement.

    Women's Royal Army Corps
    Mr. J. E. B. Hillasked the Secretary of State for War if he will make a statement on the closing of the Women's Royal Army Corps Staff College, and on the future of the Corps.
    Mr. John Hare: The Women's Royal Army Corps Staff College will be closed in August because the numbers now being trained there do not justify maintaining a separate establishment. Staff training for women will continue, but it will now be brought under the direction of the Commandant of the Staff College, Camberley. These new arrangements do not imply any reduction in our need for women officers. The Women's Royal Army Corps will become more important than ever as National Service comes to an end, and we wish to attract as many recruits as we can, both officers and other ranks.
    Mr. Hill: Can my right hon. Friend say exactly what this means to women staff officers? Will they have the same training as men, and does my right hon. Friend anticipate much difficulty in getting the numbers he requires by voluntary recruitment for the Women's Royal Army Corps?
    Mr. Hare: The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is that they will in fact make use of the training facilities at the Staff College

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    at Camberley, and they will continue to receive a course of training very similar to the one which is now provided at Frimley. On the second part of the supplementary question, all I can say is that the Corps has a proud tradition and a great record of service. There are nearly 50 different trades open to members of the Women's Royal Army Corps, including several technical trades, and I hope that we shall recruit sufficient personnel, because they will be of great value to the Army of the future.

    Personal Case
    Mr. Teelingasked the Secretary of State for War (1) why on 21st May, he wrote to inform the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion, that Craftsman Ford's big toe would come out of plaster on 7th May, two weeks previously and stating that he would then be completely overhauled medically, whereas this had already happened on 15th May;
    (2) why he informed the secretary of the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion, on 16th May that a letter concerning Craftsman Ford was in the post, which letter was shown by its contents to have been written before 7th May; why it was dated 21st May; and what steps he is taking to make sure that Members' complaints about their constituents' health and treatment in the Army are urgently treated.
    Mr. J. Amery: I very much regret the delay in writing to my hon. Friend after receipt of the first medical report.
    I understand that the telephone message given on 16th May was that a letter had been drafted but was not in the post. Inquiries from hon. Members are given high priority in the War Office, and the delay in this instance is exceptional.
    Mr. Teeing: Does my hon. Friend realise that this letter, dated 21st May, refers to what will happen when the toe comes out of plaster on 7th May, a fortnight before; and that furthermore this man would then be examined by the War Office and that I would be informed of the result? In the meantime, as my hon. Friend is aware, the father learned all about this. The son was taken ill on the train with acute appendicitis immediately after the medical examination. If this man, having got appendicitis, had been
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    properly examined, and if his tummy had been touched, surely he would have jumped a mile. I gather that Dr. Roger Bannister was one of the doctors who examined this man's foot. Did he examine the rest of his body as well?
    Mr. Amery: I think that the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question anticipates the next Question. I can only say that I have already expressed regret for the delay, and I hope that my hon. Friend will accept that expression of regret.
    Mr. Teeingasked the Secretary of State for War why, when Craftsman Ford was completely overhauled medically on 15th May and ordered back to Chester hospital for three months for toe trouble, it was not discovered that he had acute appendicitis, since he had to be taken to Liverpool Hospital that same night for operation; and why, in his letter of 21st May, he did not refer to this operation.
    Mr. J. Amery: Craftsman Ford did not complain of abdominal trouble and there was no evidence of acute appendicitis, symptoms of which did not begin until he was on his return journey. I had not heard about this development when I wrote to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Teeling: May I ask my hon. Friend why he had not heard about this? It was fourteen days afterwards when he wrote to me. Is it really necessary to keep a man like this in National Service, when he has been in hospital since the beginning of December, and all his family wants is that he should come out and go home to take up an ordinary job of work?
    Mr. Amery: In reply to the first part of the supplementary question, I would say that I am advised that the condition of appendicitis commences suddenly. In the absence of symptoms or complaints from the soldier himself, there was no reason to foresee this attack. The answer to the second part of the supplementary question is, yes. Because of foot trouble, and as a result of the medical board, my right hon. Friend has decided that Craftsman Ford should be discharged.
    Mr. Shinwell: Can we have this important matter cleared up? Did the man lose his toe or his appendix?
    Mr. Amery: He lost his appendix. I understand that his toe is recovering. He has been discharged.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Had he been an officer there would have been none of this joking.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Anglo-Australian Trade Agreement (Preference Margins)
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that several of the articles listed in Schedule B of the recent Anglo-Australian Trade Agreement such as mowers, cement-making machines, channelling machines, and certain hand tools, enjoyed preference of 25 per cent. or more before the agreement came into force; and what estimate he has made of the effect on United Kingdom exports if the margins of preference on these and other articles are reduced to the minimum of 7½ per cent.
    The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. Derek Walker-Smith): Yes, Sir. These items have in recent years accounted for about 3 per cent. of our exports to Australia. I am confident that, as my right hon. Friend the then President of the Board of Trade said on 12th November last, our exporters to Australia should be sufficiently competitive to hold the market notwithstanding the reduction of preference margins.
    Mr. Russell: If that is the case, how is it that Australia is not satisfied with the preference margin that she gets from this country? Surely if Australia is not satisfied, we are being rather complacent in being satisfied with the reduction in the preference on our exports to Australia?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I do not think I said anything to justify the charge of complacency. It is true that some of our preferences are being reduced, but my hon. Friend, who has so much expert knowledge of this subject, will appreciate that the preferences we now have are certain for five years, whereas the previous preferences were at six months' notice.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: In order that the full impact of this Agreement upon our trade and upon Commonwealth preferences can be properly considered by hon.
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    Members, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman try to initiate a publication setting out the reduction of tariffs on all the various items that come into the Agreement? Until we get that, it is very difficult for us to judge the effect of this Agreement.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I have, of course, carefully studied what the right hon. Gentleman said about this on Thursday night, and we will certainly give consideration to his suggestion.

    Evaporated and Condensed Milk (Exports)
    Mr. Wileyasked the President of the Board of Trade to which foreign countries evaporated and condensed milk is being exported.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: In the four months January-April, 1957, Western Germany, Austria, Cuba, Hungary, Libya and Burma took 85 per cent. of our exports of evaporated and condensed milk to foreign countries. The remainder was sent, in small amounts, to more than 30 countries.
    Mr. Willey: As this is another example of a subsidised export, and as it depends upon imported feeding stuffs paid for in dollars, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman keep this export under review?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I think that that question should more properly be directed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. For myself, I note what the hon. Gentleman says.
    Mr. T. Williams: Could the right hon. and learned Gentleman give any idea of the weight or volume of this export trade?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The exports to foreign countries to which the Question relates are only about 15 per cent. of the whole of the exports overseas. These amounted in the first quarter of this year to 12,333 tons to a value of rather over£1¼million.
    Mr. J. T. Price: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether these exports, which after all are carrying a certain degree of subsidy, are in conformity with out undertakings under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I am not aware of any challenge to these exports under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.
    Mr. Holt: if we are to have some of these surpluses, whether of milk or eggs, would it not be better to get rid of them by giving them to our own hospitals or to old-age pensioners rather than by disturbing foreign markets by selling them at cheap prices abroad?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I think that that question raises issues rather wider than arc implicit in this Question, which merely asks to which foreign countries these exports go.

    Mechanically Propelled Vehicles (Hire-Purchase Deposit)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the President of the Board of Trade the reason for discriminating in the hire-purchase restrictions against public service vehicles and goods vehicles of over 30 cwt. carrying capacity by refusing to extend to them, as to other mechanically propelled road vehicles, the reduction to 20 per cent. in the minimum initial hire-purchase deposit payable; and when he proposes to take remedial action in this matter.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. F. J. Erroll): An Order has been laid before Parliament today, to come into operation tomorrow, fixing a common minimum deposit of 33⅓ per cent. for all mechanically propelled vehicles. The Order also reduces the minimum deposit for machinery and plant from 50 per cent. to 33⅓ per cent.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Is my hon. Friend aware that operators of goods vehicles and coaches will receive that news with a good deal of satisfaction. equalled only, I think, by the dissatisfaction with which motorists will receive the news that their minimum deposit has gone up from 20 to 33⅓ per cent.?

    Imports from Commonwealth
    Mr. Turtonasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of imports from the Commonwealth and Empire imported into the United Kingdom during 1956 that were items enumerated in Chapters 1 to 24 of the Brussels Nomenclature; and what proportion this represented of the total value
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    of all Commonwealth and Empire imports during this period.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: These imports were valued at £853·0 million and represented 49 per cent. of total imports from the Commonwealth.
    Mr. Turton: Has my right hon. Friend communicated those figures to the Federation of British Industries, and has he noticed that, in its last pamphlet, the Federation put the proportion at 10 per cent.?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: As my right hon. Friend well knows, I have no responsibility for what the Federation of British Industries publishes. If it is under any misapprehension as to these figures, I am sure that it will be corrected by the Answer which I have given.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Will my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that, whether he has responsibility or not for what it publishes, the evidence which the Federation of British Industries gives will nevertheless have considerable force so far as European free trade is concerned, and will he, therefore, make sure that, when it submits evidence, that evidence is accurate?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I have no reason to suppose that the Federation of British Industries ordinarily publishes statistics other than those which are accurate. If there has been any slip on this occasion, I am satisfied that the Federation will correct it.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    European Free Trade Area
    Mr. Roy Jenkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress has been made with the negotiations for a European Free Trade Area drive since, on 13th February, he was charged with co-ordinating the work of three Organisation for European Economic Co-operation committees on the subject.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft): Much valuable work has been done, and the hon. Member may rest assured that all practical steps to assist the progress of negotiations will be taken.
    Mr. Jenkins: But even assuming that the Chancellor's Answer meant anything, is it not clear that the Common Market core is becoming increasingly rigid, that the signatories are increasingly less anxious to change anything, and that we are now in a position where it is very difficult for us to change the core and very difficult for us to fit ourselves around it as it exists? What is the Government's policy? Do they still propose to go straight ahead with the Free Trade Area plan, even if the French and Belgian Colonies are in on the present terms?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: That seems to be of the nature of a commentary upon events.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Since we have been asking the Chancellor for a statement about this matter ever since the Paris meeting, will he not, perhaps after Questions one day, make a fuller statement about what happened there and about what the Government's policy is? Secondly, is it or is it not the case that, as was authoritatively stated after the recent meeting in Bonn, the Prime Minister and the German Chancellor agreed to "soft-pedal" work on the Free Trade Area for some time until the ratification of the Common Market Treaty?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I should like to emphasise that there is no soft-pedalling going on. There is a great deal of very hard work going on, and I think that it would be better for it to be completed before any statement is made.

    Local Authorities (Stock Market Issues)
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the changes recently made in connection with local authorities borrowing for capital purposes.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: In order to shorten the waiting period for local authorities proposing to make stock issues, it has been decided to restore the arrangement in force before 1955 by which local authority stock market issues and placings were made only for amounts of £3 million or more. This will have the effect of reserving the stock market for those authorities whose needs are larger than can readily be met in the mortgage market, and it will make room in the mortgage market for the smaller
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    authorities to whose needs it is better suited.
    Mr. Wilson: When many local authorities were taken away from the help and protection of the Public Works Loan Board and were driven into the market, they had every ground for complaint; and is it not the fact now that many of the smaller authorities are finding that they cannot, as they were told they would have to do, borrow in the market? Will the Chancellor now say whether the Public Works Loan Board is open to them with the same freedom as was before 1955?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I have had no complaint from local authorities about this new arrangement, which is, indeed, I think, the most convenient for them. The position of the Public Works Loan Board remains exactly as it was before this re-arrangement of the stock market issues.
    Mr. Lindgren: Will the Chancellor consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, who is continually receiving complaints not only from individual local authorities but from local authority associations in regard to this?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I certainly will consult my right hon. Friend, but I do not think that he is getting any complaints about this particular question.

    Radcliffe Committee (Publication of Evidence)
    Mr. H. Wilsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the widespread interest and concern about the work of the Radcliffe Committee on financial policies and techniques, he will ensure that the Committee publishes its evidence as taken, following the practice of the Macmillan Committee on the same subject.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: A full record of the evidence taken will be published with the Committee's Report. In this the practice of the Macmillan Committee will be followed, as the right hon. Gentleman suggests.
    Mr. Wilson: I have not myself checked in the case of the Macmillan evidence, but is it not a fact that during the hearings of the Macmillan Committee the evidence was published as it

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    was taken, after a short interval, instead of people having to wait until the final publication of the Report? Would it not be of very great interest to many people in this country who are following the work of the Committee with great interest if this information could be made available, instead of their having to wait eighteen months or two years for the whole of it to be published with the final Report?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I thought that the evidence was published with the final Report, but I will have a look at that question.

    Theatre, Leicester (Arts Council)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the only exclusively live theatre in Leicester is about to close; and whether he will ask the Arts Council of Great Britain to take steps to re-establish a theatre in that city of 290,000 inhabitants.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: It has been the policy of successive Governments to leave to the Arts Council all decisions on the spending of the grant which Parliament makes to them.
    Mr. Janner: Is the Chancellor aware that the closing of this particular theatre, which has been in existence for about 120 years, is a serious blow to theatre-loving people in Leicester, and would he consider making an additional grant to the Arts Council to enable it to deal with this particular situation?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I have already made some contribution to the living theatre by the abolition of Entertainments Duty. So far as the Arts Council is concerned, I think I must leave it to make its own decisions.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is not the time coming when my right hon. Friend will be well advised to appoint either a Royal Commission or a Select Committee so that we can have a little more certainty about What we are doing in the whole field of art; and is not the proposal made by the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner) just one of the points which are so difficult for the Arts Council and the general public to understand?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I think that that goes rather wider than the original Question—
    Dame Irene Ward: It was meant to.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: —but I certainly think that the Arts Council is probably a better judge than the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the desire of the public in Leicester to attend the theatre.

    Taxation (Football Pools and Dog Racing)
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the receipts received from the tax on football pools and on dog racing, respectively, for the months of March and April, 1957.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I will, with permission, circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL. REPORT:
    The figures are as follows:
    The receipts of pool betting duty and of bookmakers' licence duty for March and April, 1957 were as follows:—

    —

    March, 1957

    April, 1957

    £

    £

    Pool betting duty receipts—

    at 10 per cent. on greyhound totalisators

    457,251

    498,677

    at 30 per cent. on foot-ball and similar pools

    2,592,324

    2,085,797

    Bookmakers' licence duty receipts

    124,839

    131,009

  HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Private Streets
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what recent conversations he has had with local authorities about the problem of private streets in England and Wales, respectively, which were developed, or partly developed, more than twenty years ago.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Mr. Henry Brooke): It is part of my Department's normal duties to deal with proposals from local authorities in both England and Wales for the making up of private streets. The problem of the older unmade roads—and I know that many of them are more than twenty

    207
    years old—is usually prominent in our correspondence and discussions with the local authorities in both countries.
    Mr. Gower: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in the part of my constituency which is on the outskirts of the City of Cardiff, there are many streets which have been in an appalling condition for all this time, and the inhabitants and residents are most apprehensive that each year which passes will add to the probable cost of making up those streets and the road charges? Does he not think that there is reasonable ground for taking some steps which will give these roads priority over any new streets which may be constructed?
    Mr. Brooke: This is a matter for the local authorities. It is for each authority to decide which streets it will make up under its statutory powers. A local authority ordinarily endeavours to deal with the worst streets first.
    Mr. Lindgren: Is the Minister aware that the frontagers, when they purchased the houses, purchased on the basis of no road charges, and the continuing delay makes for considerable difficulty in tracing builders who received payments originally in the purchase price for making up the frontage?
    Mr. Brooke: I think that that is rather another aspect of the question.
    Mr. Ede: Will the Minister restore to local authorities facilities for loan sanctions for this work, refusal of which is hindering a good many of them at the present time?
    Mr. Brooke: We are now issuing loan sanctions at the rate of about £1 million a year.

    Caravan Sites
    Mr. Remnantasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what advice he has given to his regional officers in regard to the granting of planning approval for caravan sites.
    Mr. H. Brooke: My regional officers have no authority to grant or to refuse planning approval for any form of development. That is a matter for the local planning authority, or for me on appeal. I am at present reviewing the policy on caravan sites in the light of
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    discussions which my Department has had with the local authority associations and with caravan organisations.
    Mr. Remnant: While that may be true, will my right hon. Friend please hasten that decision, since he is, no doubt, aware that the position as regards caravan sites at the moment is quite chaotic, and, unless some direction is given, site owners will take the law into their hands, and matters will take much longer to put right in the end?
    Mr. Brooke: I hope that nobody will contravene the law. I can assure my hon. Friend and the House that I realise the importance of this. There is a great clash of opinion, and I am anxious to find a solution which will be generally acceptable.

    No. 1, Devonshire Terrace, W/
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now take the necessary steps to preserve Charles Dickens' house, 1, Devonshire Terrace, W.1, from demolition, in view of the notification received from the London County Council.
    Mr. H. Brooke: The London County Council, as local planning authority, decided not to make a preservation order in respect of this house, and after carefully considering all the circumstances I reached a similar conclusion.
    Mr. Robinson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reply will give acute disappointment to a large number of people? Is he aware that this terrace of only three houses was scheduled, as recently as October, 1954, as comprising buildings of special architectural and historic interest? Is not this decision of the right hon. Gentleman's making absolute nonsense of town planning legislation?
    Mr. Brooke: The decision which I have to make is whether to use my default powers. The London County Council, which is the planning authority, decided not to make a building preservation order
    "in view of the architectural character of the premises, which have been substantially altered since they were built in the late eighteenth century, and of the existence of other houses in London and the provinces devoted to the memory of Charles Dickens."

    River Avon (Pollution)
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware of the concern felt by the farmers and anglers of Warwickshire regarding pollution of the River Avon by sewage pouring into that river from the Sherbourne and Sowe tributaries; and whether he will take immediate steps in this matter.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Works are in progress which should gradually improve the condition of this river. The Coventry City Council has already spent over £½million on improvements to its main sewage disposal works, which discharge to the River Sowe, and has a further programme involving substantial expenditure.
    Mr. Johnson: Would the Minister agree that nearly all the watercourses in the vicinity of large cities are virtually open sewers? Can he not do something more about this, or must the people await domestic action by the big county boroughs?
    Mr. Brooke: I cannot accept the generality of the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question. In this case, there is a great deal to be done. Coventry is a city which has expanded rapidly. I think it is aware of the magnitude of its responsibility, and the fact that it has already spent over £500,000 is, I would say, evidence that the Coventry City Council is taking the matter seriously.

    Yorkshire and Lancashire Moors (Public Access)
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will now announce his decisions, following inquiries into claims for general public access to certain wild moorland areas in Yorkshire and Lancashire.
    Mr. H. Brooke: I hope to be in a position to announce my decisions on these difficult cases next month.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Does the Minister feel that the Duke of Devonshire's interests are so overwhelming that it takes two years to decide whether anyone can walk over his grouse moors?
    Mr. Brooke: There is no question of any personality. The papers are before me at the moment. They concern twelve
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    areas in the West Riding and other areas in Lancashire, and I am now more than ever aware of the great complexity of the matter. I want to reach a decision that is a correct one.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Suez Contracting Companies (Employees)
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Minister of Labour how many employees of the Suez contracting companies have applied to his officers for other employment owing to events in Egypt; and with what result.
    The Minister of Labour and National Service (Mr. fain Macleod): Separate statistics of British subjects from Egypt who were employees of Suez contracting companies have not been maintained. So far, 2,121 British subjects from Egypt have registered for employment. Of these 842 have been found work by my Department. In addition a number have found their own employment, and some have emigrated. At 17th May, 475 men and women were still awaiting placing.

    Factory Inspections (Radioactive Materials)
    Mr. Masonasked the Minister of Labour what recent inspections have taken place in factories working with radioactive materials such as radium or radio-thorium; and with what results.
    Mr. fain Macleod: Since 1st June last year, at least 300 such inspections have been made. The majority of these factories are covered by the Factories (Luminising) Special Regulations, 1947, and in most cases the standard of compliance with the Regulations is good.

    Cardiff
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Labour the number of registered unemployed persons in Cardiff at the latest convenient date; and the comparable figures for a year ago.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The number was 2,459 at 13th May, 1957, compared with 1,898 at 14th May. 1956.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the Minister satisfied that this is not a trend which is likely to develop? There is a great deal of anxiety in the city.
    Mr. Macleod: The figures are, of course, higher than last year, but that is only part of the story. Last year, unemployment increased throughout the year without the normal seasonal improvement, whereas this year there is the encouraging feature of a very substantial seasonal improvement.

  SCOTLAND

    Fishing Vessels (Claims for Losses)
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has come to a decision on claims for compensation from Scottish fishing vessels whose nets have been damaged in recent incidents with foreign ships.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State tot Scotland (Lord John Hope): A claim in respect of loss suffered by one Scottish trawler has been sent to Her Majesty's Embassy in Moscow for transmission to the appropriate Soviet authorities. Claims in respect of two Scottish drifters are being examined.

    SIR ROGER CASEMENT
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister what communication he has received from Dr. Herbert Mackey, of Dublin, Chairman of the Casement Repatriation Committee, on the question of the remains of Sir Roger Casement and the books, documents and papers, the property of Sir Roger Casement and now in the custody of Her Majesty's Government; and what was the nature of his reply.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I have received a communication from the Casement Repatriation Committee and I have asked my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to deal with it. He will no doubt write to the Chairman of the Committee in due course.
    Mr. Hughes: Could the Prime Minister have a word with the Home Secretary? Is he aware that historical documents connected with trials for treason in Scotland have been returned to Edinburgh? Does he see any objection against historical documents relating to Ireland being returned to Dublin? Is there any possible
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    reason why this country should hang on to documents and other things which are of no interest to it?
    The Prime Minister: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will have all these and all other relevant considerations in mind.
    Mr. Hyde: Has my right hon. Friend seen a recent account in a Sunday newspaper to the effect that the remains of Roger Casement were handed over privately on the instructions of the late Mr. Ramsay Macdonald, when he was Prime Minister in 1932, to Casement's brother, Thomas Casement, and another Irishman? Can my right hon. Friend say whether there is any truth in that story?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir, I am afraid that I have not read the Sunday newspaper in question, but if my hon. Friend will send me a copy I will see that it is transmitted to my right hon. Friend.

    COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' MEETING
    Mr. Russellasked the Prime Minister if he will lay before the forthcoming Conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers proposals that Commonwealth Governments should simplify their tariffs, firstly, by reducing to a reasonable number the large number of different rates of duty which most of them contain, and secondly, by converting specific rates, especially complicated duties composed of specific and ad valorem rates combined, into ad valorem rates.
    The Prime Minister: This is a technical matter to which a good deal of thought is already being given by the United Kingdom and certain other Commonwealth Governments. I scarcely think that the forthcoming meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers would be a suitable occasion to consider such questions except in general terms.
    Mr. Russell: Will my right hon. Friend consider bringing this matter before the next meeting of Commonwealth Finance Ministers, whenever one is held?
    The Prime Minister: Certainly. Sir. This is, as my hon. Friend probably knows, a very technical matter, on which a good deal of work is already going on.

    SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister if he is yet in a position to announce what steps he intends to take to relieve the burden on the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations.
    The Prime Minister: I have at present nothing to add to the reply which I gave the hon. Gentleman on 16th April.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the Prime Minister aware that there is a special sense of urgency in this matter? In view of the many indiscretions that the present holder of the office has committed during the last few months, would the Prime Minister not agree that the best course would be to relieve him of office altogether?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I utterly repel that observation, which is foolish and unworthy.
    Mr. Dugdale: While I do not want to get into any controversy concerning the indiscretions of the Minister concerned, may I ask the Prime Minister whether he does not agree that the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations is, in fact, very underworked? Will the Prime Minister not see whether it is possible, at the forthcoming conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers, to increase the Secretary of State's duties by some further economic co-operation between the members of the Commonwealth?
    The Prime Minister: As to whether my noble Friend is overworked or under-worked, I must leave the right hon. Gentleman to settle with his hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. Hamilton).

    NUCLEAR TESTS AND WEAPONS
    Mr. Proctorasked the Prime Minister what knowledge he expects to gain from further hydrogen bomb tests on Christmas Island that is not already possessed by the Government of the United States of America; if, in the proposals he is considering making to the United States of America for the pooling of information about nuclear weapons, he will consider the feasibility of their nuclear scientists co-operating with ours in an examination of the details
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    of our tests and a subsequent report to the British Government upon the advisability of any further tests being made; and if he will request the United States Government to seek the authority of Congress to examine afresh, with the British Government, the question of nuclear defence.
    The Prime Minister: As the hon. Member is aware, the United States Government are not able under United States law to exchange details of their tests which concern the design and fabrication of nuclear weapons; I therefore do not know what knowledge they possess in this sphere and how it relates to our own. We do, however, exchange information on the effects of nuclear weapons; this exchange while valuable to both parties does not, of course, help us in the design of our own weapons. I have said that the possibility of putting proposals to the United States Government will be carefully considered.
    Mr. Proctor: Does the Prime Minister fully realise the enormous risk that we are taking in the defence of the free world in the question of nuclear weapons? Is it not time that we told the United States that they must cooperate with us on a fair basis if we are to continue to take these tremendous risks? Does not the Prime Minister realise that, as well as the problem of poisoning the world by the tests, there is the really great problem of dismantling the enormous amount of nuclear power that is now built up and which, we are advised, could destroy all Europe in three hours? Does he not consider that the best way to do that is to press as quickly as possible for a conference in which the veto of Congress in this matter can be considered?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Member will recognise that the number of supplementary points that he has raised makes his Question more suitable for debate than for question and answer, but I will do my best to summarise in this way. I regard the nuclear power of the free world thus: it has at least preserved peace in the period since the war, and is our greatest protection; that it should not be abandoned without corresponding reductions in conventional armaments. I welcome any initiative, in which we will play our part, and in which the United

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    States Government are playing their part, which may lead to a proper solution of this problem.

    HYDROGEN BOMB TESTS
    Mrs. Castleasked the Prime Minister if he will specify in detail the evidence submitted to him that the worldwide fall-out of fission products from the first British hydrogen bomb test was negligible.
    Mr. J. Hyndasked the Prime Minister what assessment has now been made of the effects of fall-out from the first Christmas Island test, in particular upon health and genetic prospects.
    The Prime Minister: The explosion took place as planned at a great height, and the cloud was seen to rise into the stratosphere. As I said in my statement on 21st May, I am satisfied, on the advice that I have received, that any addition that this test will make to the worldwide fall-out of fission products will be negligible. I am also satisfied that from the medical and biological point of view the radiation effects will be insignificant. The conclusion that in these circumstances any addition to the worldwide fall-out of fission products will be negligible is based on scientific assessment of the yield of the weapon and the known effects of previous nuclear explosions.
    Mrs. Castle: But is it not a very far-reaching claim for the Prime Minister to make, that he is satisfied that the worldwide effects of the fall-out will be negligible? How does he know? Has he had recording stations placed strategically round the globe? Or is this just guesswork, which is not reinforced by any evidence from any countries which are receiving fall-out?
    The Prime Minister: I am satisfied because I have great confidence in my advisers, and I believe this statement that I have made to be correct.
    Mr. Osborne: Has my right hon. Friend read the excellent letter in The Times of today by Lord Cherwell, and if he has seen it will he send a copy to the hon. Lady and put her fears to rest?
    The Prime Minister: I shall be very happy to send a copy of The Times to the hon. Lady, if I can find one at home.
    Dr. Summerskill: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how he can be satisfied that the genetic effects will be negligible before the by-products have been absorbed?
    The Prime Minister: I have been given advice by the greatest experts that I have at my command, and for the statement that I have made I relied upon the advice which they gave me.
    Mr. D. Jones: In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has now said, will he arrange for himself, the Foreign Secretary, and Lord Cherwell to be in the danger zone when the next explosion takes place?
    The Prime Minister: Well, Sir, I have been in danger zones before.
    Mr. Masonasked the Prime Minister, having now tested the hydrogen bomb, if he will, with a view to allaying further public concern, make an announcement of future Government policy on atom and hydrogen bomb tests.
    The Prime Minister: It is impossible now to determine what our future requirements will be, but it is our policy to restrict testing to the minimum.
    Mr. Mason: Would it not be most heartening if, now that we have tested our hydrogen bomb, the right hon. Gentleman would say that he is prepared to step into the international arena to meet the representatives of the atomic Powers at a high level to try to get step by step an agreement on all aspects of the nuclear problem?
    The Prime Minister: I think I must repeat what I said before, that a single test does not give us the full requirement that is necessary in this series. I think we should bear in mind the relatively small amount of experience that we have, compared with two other great Powers.
    Captain Pilkington: Is it not very unfortunate that the Labour Opposition should deliberately and unnecessarily increase public alarm about these tests?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Woodburn: In view of that remark, may I ask the Prime Minister whether he has studied the report of the General Assembly of the Church of

    217
    Scotland, which yesterday unanimously recommended that we should stop these hydrogen bomb tests altogether, as they will do no good to anyone?
    The Prime Minister: I have not read the full report. I can only say that, while I fully respect and understand those who have their duties to perform, I also have my duty to perform, and I do not intend to abandon it.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Is the Prime Minister aware that, whatever may be the precise merits of this question, there is very genuine anxiety and alarm among millions of people in this country, and it is extremely foolish, to say the least of it, for hon. Members opposite to imagine that this is a worked-up campaign? May I ask whether it is the Government's policy, before they will contemplate an international agreement on the suspension of tests, to insist that it must be part of a general disarmament agreement?
    The Prime Minister: All these details we will go into again when we come to the next disarmament debate. There are signs of considerable progress being now possible. I do not feel at all pessimistic about the prospects of some forward movement. The right hon. Gentleman knows the importance, and perhaps has had experience of the difficulty, of keeping a balanced view of this problem.

    COVENTRY (INDUSTRY AND EMPLOYMENT)
    Miss Burtonasked the Prime Minister if he is aware that the problems of redeployment of industry and employment of skilled workers arising out of the revised defence programme have not been solved by the existing machinery for coordination between the Board of Trade and the Ministries of Labour and Supply, particularly in regard to Coventry; and if he will appoint one Minister to investigate this problem.
    The Prime Minister: The Government recognised in the White Paper on Defence that a certain amount of disturbance is unavoidable; but it is too soon to pass judgment or, the efforts which Departments and industry are making to reduce local difficulties in Coventry and elsewhere. The Answer to the last part of the Question is "No, Sir".
    Miss Burton: Is the Prime Minister aware that not only in Coventry and not, I think, on this side of the House only, there is very real anxiety over the effects of these defence cuts? Will he look further into the matter, because in Coventry both management and unions are very much afraid that the scientific teams which have been built up and the equipment assembled in the factories over many years are now going to be wasted?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, of course, this presents a considerable problem. I think that the Minister of Labour dealt with it in the debate on 17th April, in a speech which was very well received on both sides of the House. I have great confidence in his power, with that of the Board of Trade, to do their best to deal with these questions, if they arise. I would point out that whereas the registered unemployment in the whole pf Great Britain on 15th April was 1·6 per cent. the registered unemployment on the same clay in Coventry was 2 per cent.. not a very substantial difference. By 13th May unemployment in Coventry had fallen to 1·8 per cent.

    MR. BULGANIN'S LETTER (PRIME MINISTER'S REPLY)
    Mr. V. Yatesasked the Prime Minister how long he considers it necessary to examine the letter addressed to him by Mr. Bulganin on 20th April; and, in view of the need for agreement on vital issues affecting both countries, if he will speed up his final and comprehensive reply to Mr. Bulganin.
    The Prime Minister: As I said in my reply on 21st May to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler), I think it my duty to compile a full and careful answer to Mr. Bulganin's lengthy letter. I hope to be able to complete this task shortly.
    Mr. Yates: Is it not unreasonable to take more than five weeks to answer a letter, especially as the Prime Minister, when he last spoke on the matter, spoke of the interest he had in establishing relations with the Soviet Union? Is it, therefore, not reasonable to make the reply quickly?
    The Prime Minister: I think that to make a fair judgment of that it would be necessary to know how long it took to compile the letter.

    UNITED KINGDOM ATOMIC REACTORS (INFORMATION)
    Wing Commander Bullusasked the Prime Minister what steps he is taking to give publicity to the British atomic reactor among potential purchasers.
    The Prime Minister: A constant supply of information about United Kingdom reactors and other atomic achievements in which this country can justly take pride is provided to countries abroad by our official representatives in each country and by such media as the Central Office of Information and the B. B.C. Overseas Service, as well as by the firms manufacturing nuclear equipment. Several films have been made and a number of exhibitions have been organised. The United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority and industrial firms arrange frequent visits to their establishments here for scientists, engineers and industrialists from abroad. Speakers from this country lecture abroad and participate in conferences on the various peaceful uses of atomic energy.
    Wing Commander Bullus: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that very comprehensive reply, may I ask him whether he is aware of the very genuine disquiet of many of us at what we consider to be the unprincipled trading methods of the Americans in this market, particularly at the conference which was held in Tokyo?
    The Prime Minister: I think we must recognise that the conference in Tokyo, to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, was of course a conference arranged by commercial interests.
    Mr. Proctor: Private enterprise.
    The Prime Minister: I think that the Answer which I have given, with that on Monday, 20th May, by the Paymaster-General, will dispel any anxiety that could be held about the quality of our
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    equipment, which is of absolutely first order.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the British atomic exhibits at the Hanover Trade Fair have been excellent in every respect, and will he, therefore, examine the results of exhibiting them, considering that about 18,000 people a day have been going to look at them, and that they have created tremendous interest amongst German industrialists and other people? Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, see that similar arrangements are made at other important world trade fairs?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his very helpful supplementary and his valuable suggestion.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the methods adopted by the Americans in Tokyo were most unscrupulous and most high-powered, and cannot we retaliate by sending an equally high-powered delegation to the Far East to deal with this problem and to make it abundantly clear that we are the only nation in the world that has a commercial reactor working at the present time?
    The Prime Minister: It is not for me to comment on the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. With regard to the second part of it, I think that what the hon. Gentleman has said is true and ought to be known.

BILL PRESENTED
  SUPERANNUATION
  Bill to make further provision as to gratuities payable in respect of persons employed in the civil service of the State otherwise than in an established capacity and as to the application of the Superannuation Acts to persons entering the civil service of the State after having been in other employment, presented by Mr. J. Enoch Powell; supported by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Molson, and Mr. Aubrey Jones; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Thursday and to be printed.
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  FINANCE BILL
  Considered in Committee. [progress, 23rd May]
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair.]

  FINANCE BILL

    Clause 6.—(REDUCTION OF PURCHASE TAX ON CERTAIN HOUSEHOLD GOODS.)
    3.34 p.m.
    Mr. John Hall: I beg to move, in page 6, line 23, at the end to insert:
    (a) a rate of tax of five per cent. were substituted for any rate of thirty per cent. in Group 11 (which comprises furniture, hardware, ironmongery, turnery, tableware, kitchenware and toilet ware, of kinds used for domestic or office purposes).
    The Chairman: It might be for the convenience of the Committee if this Amendment were taken with four others dealing with the same subject. They are the Amendments in page 6, line 23, at end insert:
    (a) the words "not chargeable under this Group" were substituted for any rate of tax of thirty per cent. in Group 11 (which comprises furniture, hardware, ironmongery, turnery. table-ware, kitchen-ware:and toilet ware of kinds used for domestic or office purposes).
    In page 6, line 24, leave out from beginning to "were" and insert:
    "the words 'not chargeable under this Group'".
    In page 6, line 24, leave out "fifteen" and insert "five",
    and in page 6, line 29, leave out subparagraph (ii).
    Mr. Hall: Although it is true that these Amendments cover the whole range of items charged under Group 11, I am primarily concerned with furniture charged under that group and, appropriately enough, with hall furniture such as hat and coat stands, umbrella stands, and racks. I should have preferred to have moved the Amendment in my name in page 6, line 43, at the end to insert:
    (c) the following articles were added to the list of furniture of a kind used for domestic purposes comprised in paragraph (b) of Group 11—" hat, coat and umbrella stands and racks".
    but I understand that it is out of order because of the narrow wording of the
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    Ways and Means Resolution. That is why I have to move this more omnibus Amendment.
    Perhaps it would be convenient if I gave the Committee a short, potted history of this taxation. Under Group 11 most domestic furniture has been chargeable at 5 per cent. since 1st April, 1956, but hall furniture, and, indeed, office furniture, has been chargeable at 30 per cent. during that time. Now we are delighted to see that the charge is reduced to 15 per cent. I can perhaps see a case for charging a slightly higher rate of Purchase Tax on office furniture, if only because one can reclaim a part of the cost of office furniture under depreciation allowance. I can see that slight argument, but I see no logical case for charging hall furniture at a rate different from that charged on domestic furniture. It is neither logical nor equitable, though I appreciate that logicality and equity are not synonymous with tax law.
    Hall furniture was originally outside the utility scheme and bore the full rate of tax. When the D scheme was introduced, some hall furniture, that is, furniture with storage space, qualified for relief under the scheme but other furniture did not. That led to the disadvantage that an expensive hall stand with a cupboard or drawer qualified for relief whereas a simpler and cheaper item of furniture bore the full rate of tax.
    The trade pointed out that and similar anomalies to the Treasury at the time, and it was promised that the matter would be borne in mind when the D scheme was reviewed. On 26th October, 1955, when certain Purchase Tax was introduced, including a tax on household furniture, the present Leader of the House, who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, said:
    "While abolishing the D schemes, however. I am not proposing to apply the full rigour of the new rates of Purchase Tax to the articles affected. Apart from fur garments, which will remain chargeable at 50 per cent. but with no D allowance, the whole range of articles now affected by D schemes will be made liable to tax at rates of 5 per cent. or 10 per cent., corresponding broadly to the previous rates of 25 per cent. or 50 per cent. without D allowances."—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 26th October. 1955; Vol. 545, c. 222.]
    This applied to the whole range of articles affected by D schemes.

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    It was very understandable that the trade should think that it applied to all items of furniture then qualified for relief under D schemes, which included hall-stands with storage accommodation. I believe that that was my right hon. Friend's intention at that time, but Customs and Excise thought rather differently. The authorities there pointed out that in the classification of furniture under the original D scheme the words
    "…other furniture comprising storage space …"
    had appeared but in the new list, in the new Group 11, these words had been omitted.
    They claimed, therefore, that hall furniture was no longer subject to relief and did not come within the group charged at 5 per cent. They claimed that items of hall furniture previously entitled to relief should come in with the whole category of hall furniture that did not qualify for such relief. That might have been logical, but it would have been equally logical to have treated all at the lower rate rather than to take one or two items out of relief and charge them at a higher rate of tax.
    It is illogical that this one small group of furniture should bear higher tax. I can put a book on a bookshelf and pay 5 per cent. tax, but if I put my hat on the hallstand I pay 15 per cent. Hats are expensive enough as it is, especially by the time one pays a tip to a cloakroom attendant or every time it is recovered from wherever one last left it. To say that one must pay an extra 10 per cent. for hanging it up in one's own home is asking too much. I can put my gloves in a chest of drawers and pay 5 per cent. Purchase Tax for the privilege, but if I put them in a more appropriate place, such as in the drawer of a hatstand, I pay 15 per cent. I can stand a wet umbrella in the wardrobe and pay 5 per cent. tax, but if I put it in the umbrella stand, the proper receptacle designed for it, I pay 15 per cent. That seems ludicrous and an Alice in Wonderland kind of economics.
    As I believe that it was my right hon. Friend's intention when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer that these items should be all included in the general Group 11 (b) of 5 per cent., and hall furniture somehow inadvertently slipped
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    into the higher rate, I hope that my argument will be accepted with sympathy and that some way will be found to give this relief.
    Dr. Barnett Stross: Would I be in order, Sir Charles, at this stage to speak to the Amendment standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mrs. Slater)?
    The Chairman: Yes, certainly.
    Dr. Stross: I am grateful to you, Sir Charles. I am sure that the Committee will not be unaware that those of us who have appended our names to this Amendment are Members from Stoke-on-Trent and North Staffordshire and have a special interest in pottery manufacture. The largest number of people in the world who work together in the ceramic industry are located in North Staffordshire. It is fitting, therefore, that we should take a specific interest.
    We debated this matter at length in November, 1955, when Purchase Tax of 30 per cent. was imposed. We pleaded then that it should be entirely remitted, but we were not successful. At that time, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, now the Leader of the House, thought fit to suggest that we had put a case with which he had some sympathy. He called our speeches successful, I do not know why, because he made it clear that he wanted the money, that he needed £7 million. That was why it had to be a 30 per cent. imposition on this commodity for the first time, that is, on domestic china and earthenware.
    Now we are faced with the fact that the tax has been cut to 15 per cent. However critical I shall be—and I shall try to be as critical as possible—I must say, first, that we are very grateful that it has been cut from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent. This will certainly make a difference and will alleviate some of the disasters—I must use that word—which have fallen upon us as a result of the original act.
    It must be known to the Chancellor that the original amount of money by way of tax which it was hoped the Treasury would receive, namely, £7 million in a full year, was not realised; that in fact, it was a little over £5½ million. The reason it was £5½ million and not £7 million was because of the ill effects of

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    the tax upon the industry, and the way that the industry literally was compelled to shrink in size, losing workers and losing customers. It was exactly as if one had done some excessive blood-letting upon a patient, the patient became anaemic, his heart slowed, he became puffy and oedematous. That was done to this virile and buoyant industry by the one act of legislation which we deplored so much.
    We can offer a prophecy today as to the amount the Chancellor will receive from a tax at the rate of 15 per cent. Instead of getting half of £5½ million, we fear that he will get much less. It would please us enormously if the right hon. Gentleman received a great deal more, because the more he gets the more it will mean that I am wrong in my forebodings, namely, that the tax is bad for the industry and militates against us. In this respect, the Chancellor and ourselves are, or should be, in partnership. If he can get a lot of money from us it means that we are still healthy, able to survive and able to face competition from abroad equably and well. If, however, the revenue shrinks, it means he has done us serious damage, or at least it is evidence that damage has been done.
    The fears we had in November, 1955, and which we expressed at some length on the Floor of the House, were well founded. Indeed, we think now that we underestimated the crippling effect of the tax at 30 per cent. Today, we have lost roughly 10 per cent. of the craftsmen in the industry compared with the date to which I have referred, when we last debated this matter. Losing craftsmen from the pottery industry is a serious matter, as I hope the Committee will accept, for they are not easy to get back, they are difficult to train and it takes a long time to do so. In North Staffordshire they do not go essentially into exporting industries and, therefore, they are not as valuable to the country's economy when they leave the pottery industry as when they are with it. Exporting, as it does, roughly 50 per cent. of what it manufactures, the industry may well be said to be a valuable exporting one, and it is export conscious.
    3.45 p.m.
    In addition to having lost labour, about one-third of the total number of people are working involuntary short-time. That information applies to the month of January, 1957; I have not got the figure
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    for this month. The stock position is bad, also. The warehouses are crammed with stock and, bye and large, the industry is manufacturing to put into stock, although this does not apply to every firm. There are still 200 or 300 firms, although about 30 have ceased to manufacture in the last eighteen months. However, many firms find it difficult to store any further manufactured material.
    Orders in hand have been falling, and sales have seriously diminished, both at home and abroad. I will quote one or two figures. In the first nine months of 1956, compared with the year before, the fall of sales in the home market amounted to 14 per cent. and in the first quarter of this year, as compared with last year, there was a further fall of 6 per cent., so it is reasonable to say that there has been a contraction of sales in the home market by one-fifth. Sales abroad, in 1956, decreased on 1955 by £1¼ million, and again in the first quarter of this year, compared with last year, there was a further deterioration. The last figures I obtained were received this morning and confirm that this is so, if we take the first four months of this year, not three months, and compare them with last year.
    I do not have to tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is a Staffordshire man, that restriction in the home market for us in the industry means that we really have not got the means to carry out research to evolve new patterns, to bring out new designs, and to face competition from abroad. There are plenty of other pottery concerns in other countries, and some of them are very good. There was a time when we looked upon pottery from Western Germany and Italy as being derisory stuff. It is not so now. It is good and cheap. Why it is cheaper than ours is difficult to say, but it may well be that the standard of life that their potters enjoy is nothing like as good as our own.
    We are proud of the fact that our pottery workers, until recently, when so many of them were forced on to short-time working, were enjoying a standard of life which, while it was not the highest in the country, was higher than they had been accustomed to in the past, when wages were really bad. Then the pottery industry was always a badly paid industry—
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Very bad.
    Dr. Stross: My hon. Friend, who confirms what I say, has represented his constituency for over twenty-one years and knows that this was true.
    If we cannot try out new patterns on the home market, it is not easy to expand our export market. I will not enlarge upon this matter—it has been said by so many hon. Members on both sides of the Committee every year when we have discussed this 'and similar matters—except to say that I remember the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) making a very strong argument on this basis which is absolutely true.
    If one has a healthy and reasonable home market, one has something to spare which allows one to carry out research and try out new patterns, and if those patterns are found to be successful, one is then able to offer them in the export market. Therefore, it must be apparent that if there is not a healthy home market, exports must decline. They have been declining as we feared they would. They have been declining ever since the first imposition of Purchase Tax at the original rate of 30 per cent.
    The Chancellor may say that he has gone as far as he can by halving Purchase Tax. I am sure that he will not deny that at 30 per cent. it did the industry harm; otherwise he would not have halved it. I am sure that all the evidence brought before him, and perhaps some of the persuasive speeches made by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee eighteen months ago, influenced him.
    I would remind the Chancellor that we have special claims when we ask for understanding, sympathy and special treatment for the industry. One of the reasons is that only 1 per cent. of the material used by the industry has to be bought abroad,. which is a very important factor. The industry is a real money spinner with its exports. All that it uses is a little pinch of dust or clay, and some glaze, and apart from that there is a little gold, which is used for decorating ware—ware that we cannot afford to have in the House of Commons. The pottery in the House of Commons is absolutely dreadful. Apart from a little gold dust or a little gold on a rag, almost everything used in the industry is indigenous.
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    As we export more than half the amount of ware that we manufacture, surely we have a right to demand some special consideration. The people in the industry are working for the country as well as for themselves. Not only do the workers obtain their livelihood in the industry, but they help the country, and they are proud to do so. All they ask is that they should be given an "open door", and "open door" means no Purchase Tax at all, and then they will be able to help the country as fully as possible.
    Once upon a time people looked upon finely decorated ware on their tables as a necessity rather than a luxury, no matter how few pieces they had. Today, most of our people, especially the young ones, do not remember what it looks like. We have had a degrading experience over many years—lumps of white earthenware, the cheapest sort of stuff, which no one would have looked at in years gone by. Our people have forgotten what really fine china on the table looks like.
    I have said that it has even affected us in the Palace of Westminster. No one seems to complain. We have put up with it for so long that we are brain-washed to accept it as if it were for ever. It is a pity, and it is bad for the industry. If we make the ware more expensive by imposing even 15 per cent. Purchase Tax, it militates against the new generation learning to appreciate fine china on their tables.
    Excellent material is manufactured in the constituency of the hon. Lady the Member for Melton (Miss Pike). She knows that we are right in what we say on this subject. I hope that I shall later hear her voice in support of our case. We are not putting up a case merely because we want to put up a case. In speaking in the way we do, we are putting up a case which is true and reasonable.
    The Chancellor would lose nothing—indeed, he would gain—if he gave way to us. He must recognise that Purchase Tax, even at 15 per cent. acts in another way against his interests in collecting revenue. Last year, the total number of tourists visiting the country increased by 6 per cent., but the sales of pottery to Canadian visitors decreased by 38 per cent. and to American visitors by 29 per cent. There is a reason for that. The

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    great stores in London can operate personal export schemes, being able to finance the 15 per cent., but the much smaller shops in the provincial centres are unable and, very often, unwilling to take the risk of running such a scheme.
    A great deal of pottery is taken out of the country by tourists, especially Canadians, and they do not always buy it in London. If they saw our material displayed in the provinces without Purchase Tax, they could buy it and take it home with them; but when they find they have to pay Purchase Tax on it that works against us. That is why there has been such a fall in sales to Americans and Canadians.
    I have tried to be brief. As the Purchase Tax is now 15 per cent., I was determined to spend only half the time I took when we debated this matter on the previous occasion, when the rate was 30 per cent.
    Ours is a very vulnerable industry. It is a very old one and a very honourable one. I am sure it is not special pleading when we say that the country will gain, as the industry will gain, if the Chancellor will have second thoughts and get rid altogether of this very bad tax.
    Mr. A. E. Cooper: I hope that we shall not find the Chancellor stony-hearted in considering this subject. I propose to deal not with the specific points which have been raised, but with the general principle of the Purchase Tax as a whole.
    I am one of those who have campaigned for years against Purchase Tax and in favour of a general sales tax. So long as we have Purchase Tax with varying rates and various groups we shall continue to have anomalies. The whole system of Purchase Tax is riddled with anomalies which cannot be defended on any grounds of logic. What is more, the Treasury does not attempt to defend them on grounds of logic.
    If we could hear from the Chancellor that there is some movement within the Treasury to do away with Purchase Tax and substitute a general sales tax, perhaps in a year or two, we might be prepared to continue with the existing system, knowing that it takes a long time to work out a great comprehensive scheme such as a general sales tax. To deal with the matter as we are dealing with it puts
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    everybody in a state of uncertainty. What is more, as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) has said, it does great damage to our industry.
    We must never forgot that Purchase Tax was levied in war for a specific object, to restrict production so that we could devote our energies to the manufacture of munitions. At the end of the war, as with so many taxes, it was found to be a great revenue producer. The Labour Party has been just as much to blame in this matter as the Conservative Party.
    Without wishing to be controversial, it was easier for the Labour Party, at the end of the war, to alter the system rather than to perpetuate Purchase Tax, but the Treasury had found a means of raising £300 million a year and that was not to be denied very easily. It is, of course, difficult to raise £300 million or £400 million by any other means, but if, in raising that money under the existing system, we are damaging our industrial life and our economy, then something ought to be done about it, and done quickly.
    4.0 p.m.
    The Amendments are largely concerned with what, in 1955, were known as the "pots and pans Amendments". I spoke strongly against them at the time and abstained from voting. We are now moving in the right direction by cutting the tax in half. I should be quite happy if the tax were brought down to 5 per cent., although I should like to see it eliminated altogether. However, if one accepts the general principle of a sales tax, there will have to be a flat rate of tax for commodities such as these, and 5 per cent, would be a fair rate to levy.
    All the goods covered by the Amendments are products which are in ordinary household use, plus some office furniture, and cannot in any way be considered items of luxury. If the Amendments were conceded, there would not be a great rush by the consuming public to buy these goods. Having regard to the benefits which Would accrue to industry generally, and which would probably result in the end in more revenue going to the Chancellor, I hope that my right hon. Friend will find it possible to accept the Amendments.
    Mr. Victor Collins: I want to concentrate on the Amendment in page 6, line 24, to leave out from beginning to "were" and to insert:
    "the words 'not chargeable under this Group' ".
    This Amendment does not conflict with, but rather embraces the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) which he argued so convincingly and with so much knowledge. Nor does it conflict with that of the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall). We want the whole of the tax removed, whereas he asked for it to be reduced to 5 per cent. He was right in saying that there is nothing logical about this and no reason why one item of domestic furniture should be taxed at 5 per cent. and another at 15 per cent.
    In his amusing discourse on hall stands and the things that hang on them, the hon. Member for Wycombe was wrong in saying that hats were taxed at 15 per cent. The rate is 10 per cent., but I forgive him for that mistake, because it is extremely difficult to understand the 96-page booklet, "Notice by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, No. 78."
    Mr. John Hall: I was referring to hat racks being charged at 15 per cent. and not to hats themselves.
    Mr. Collins: You will see, Sir Charles, how easy it is to misunderstand a thing of this kind.
    I want strongly to protest to the Chancellor against what I can best describe as the exclusion or remainder method used in the Customs and Excise Notice for describing goods on which Purchase Tax is chargeable. The hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) mentioned damage done to industry, but I do not suppose that anybody who has not actually to deal with this pernicious tax really understands the frustration and unnecessary trouble caused to people who have to work with it. That is immensely costly to the country and adds to the price of goods, quite apart from the extra cost of Purchase Tax.
    The present system—and I agree that this is the way it has always been done —leads to the maximum of doubt, difficulty and frustration. It also creates a
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    great deal of unnecessary work for Customs officials. Group 11 is a typical example. It covers 12 pages in the booklet. Instead of setting out in each group a list of articles with the definite rate of Purchase Tax applicable to them, the Notice says:
    " Articles not comprised in any of the following paragraphs of this group…"
    are subject to 30 per cent. tax, now reduced to 15 per cent.
    Then follows the list of 12 sub-groups, as it were, of articles either subject to a greater or lesser rate of tax, or altogether exempted from tax. There are 12 pages, mostly in small print, of exemptions, explanations, classifications in other groups, which I defy anyone wholly to master. They include many items where the meaning is as obscure as masters of obscurity can make it.
    I very much doubt whether the Chancellor has thoroughly read the 96-page booklet. If he had, he would not have allowed this present method to continue. It is absolutely preposterous to foist this on industry and to say that it is a method by which industry is to determine whether goods are subject to tax and, if so, the rate of tax to which they are subject. If the Chancellor merely printed a list of goods and stated the rates to which they were subject, the 12 pages could be boiled down to about 1½ pages. Irrespective of any decision he may make about the rates of tax, I ask him to insist on making that change. If he really studies the booklet: he must alter the procedure. If the Commissioners do not know how to alter or improve it, any businessman with experience of this tax can soon show them.
    Group 11 first refers to:
    " Furniture, hardware, ironmongery, turnery, table-ware, kitchen-ware and toilet-ware, being articles of a kind used for domestic or office purposes…."
    Then follow the 12 sub-groups of exemptions. Group (c) is:
    "Mirrors whether framed or not",
    which are taxed at 60 per cent. Group (e) includes invalid chairs. I know of discussions which have gone on with the Commissioners of Customs and Excise for years about precisely what was an invalid chair, and whether an ordinary chair could be turned into an invalid chair merely by having wheels put on it and then having somebody push it.

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    After dealing with the general scope of the group, we have 2½ pages of exemptions. We find that the exemption applies to
    "…infants' chairs having a feeding tray, irrespective of the seat height."
    That means that other infant chairs are not exempt. Lockers are exempt if they are
    "…equipped for hanging clothes, not exceeding 18 inches in width and 18 inches in depth…"
    What kind of clothes can be hung in lockers which must not exceed 18 inches in depth or 18 inches in width?
    Other lockers are exempt provided that they are not of the kind which we have in the House of Commons, because in the House of Commons there are shelves and, being more useful than the other kind, are not exempt. These absurdities are continued over almost every sub-group. For example, there is an exemption for trivets, including false hobs and hearth stools, but not hearth companion stands which incorporate a trivet. Of course, it would be wholly wrong to exempt those from tax. Firebricks are exempt, and the exemption extends to cast-iron grids, but grids for attaching to grates to prevent live coals from dropping out remain chargeable to tax.
    The pages go on to deal with the scope of the exclusion and these sub-groups are repeated with further details, which have to be waded through to find out whether the articles in which one is particularly interested are subject to tax. After another page or so, one comes again to the goods chargeable under other groups at 5 per cent., 60 per cent., and so on. There, the absurdities increase. A mirror is chargeable at 60 per cent., but a splash-back with a mirror in it, provided that there is an area of 16 sq. in. of unmirrored space, is chargeable at only 30 per cent.
    Mr. Donald Chapman: Can my hon. Friend tell me what point he has reached in this magnificent booklet? I am lost at this point.
    Mr. Collins: I am reading from Notice No. 7868 by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, under Group 11, and working through from page 23 onwards.
    Mr. Chapman: But which page has my hon. Friend reached? I have been following him, but I have lost the page.
    Mr. Collins: I thought it would be even more tedious if I quoted every page and every reference. At the moment, I am quoting from page 28, which refers to goods chargeable at 5 per cent.
    Mr. John Rankin: I hope that my hon. Friend will not forget to deal with toilet-ware, on page 33. That is most interesting.
    Mr. Collins: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. I will endeavour to deal at least briefly with a number of matters which have occurred to me, and I am quite sure that my hon. Friends will be able to fill in any gaps which I may leave.
    In page 28 the Commissioners have set out, helpfully, in two columns, those goods which are liable to 5 per cent. tax, and contrasted them with goods liable to 30 per cent. tax—presumably now reduced to 15 per cent. The hon. Member for Wycombe mentioned wooden desks. The page lists those which are liable to a higher rate of tax. For example, a wooden desk specially designed to seat more than one person is an obvious iniquity in the mind of the Chancellor, because it has to bear a higher rate of tax.
    Folding chairs are shown as being subject to only 5 per cent. tax, but deck chairs are at a higher rate because they include canvas. Later, it is explained why canvas makes them chargeable at the higher rate. We are then given a further explanation of goods chargeable at 30 per cent., to make it absolutely as clear as mud. By that time anybody reading through the booklet is hopelessly confused, and an extra and very long list is given. The list includes boot scrapers; buckets weighing less than 60 lb. a dozen; candlesticks; carpet beaters; clothes posts and props of any material; coal bunkers, coal hods and scuttles; curtain rails or rods, and many variations of these articles.
    Mr. Douglas Glover: Will it not be more convenient to the Committee if we have the whole of this schedule published verbatim in HANSARD? It seems to me that the hon. Member is reading it page by page.
    The Chairman: The publication is available in the Vote Office if the hon. Member wants to read it.
    Mr. Collins: I am sorry if this wearies the hon. Member, but I can assure him that it is far more wearying to those in industry who have to carry out these provisions, and to housewives who have to suffer from their effects.
    Mr. Gerald Nabarro: A crashing bore.
    Mr. Collins: If the hon. Member is accusing me of boring the Committee—
    Mr. Rankin: The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) is a crashing bore.
    Mr. Collins: —I can assure him that he has done this far more often.
    Mr. Nabarro: What I said was that the hon. Member was a crashing bore.
    4.15 p.m.
    Mr. Collins: I am sorry if this sort of thing bores the hon. Member, but I honestly believe that it is important to people in industry who have to go through this procedure. They have to get their livelihood by it and are obstructed by this kind of thing, quite apart from paying hopelessly unnecessary high prices for these goods.
    After all those pages there follow another 2½ pages referring to non-chargeable goods. Whatever else hon. Members may think about this matter I submit that it is a ridiculous and unnecessarily complicated way of doing the job, and that the whole process should be looked at to see if it can be altered. I am strengthened in my doubt that the Chancellor has studied the matter by the enormous number of anomalies which occur. I have mentioned one or two, and I hope that the Chancellor will give us the reason for these anomalies.
    For example, tables are chargeable at 5 per cent.; table tops at 15 per cent., and table legs are exempt. I will give way at once if the Chancellor can tell me the justification for that, which I regard as a piece of indefensible nonsense. If it is argued that table legs can be used to do repairs, table tops can be used in exactly the same way. Incidentally, chair legs are tax free, but chairs are subject to 5 per cent. and the plywood seats for them to 15 per cent. tax.
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    Babies' cots are exempt, but cot fittings are chargeable at 15 per cent. Baby hampers with lids are subject to a 5 per cent. tax, but if they are without lids the tax is 15 per cent. If legs or castors are put on them they revert to a 5 per cent. tax, so that the housewife can often buy the hamper more cheaply with a lid or with legs than without. I can assure the Chancellor that I am talking about precisely the same article, except for the absence or presence of a lid or legs. What possible justification can there be for a different rate of tax, or for any tax at all, on these articles, since they are babies' requisites and the Government have decided that almost the whole range of goods, clothing and requisites for babies and young children should be tax free?
    I ask the Chancellor to get somebody on his staff with a little common sense to go through this booklet with instructions that these absurdities and contradictions should be tabulated, to see whether, between now and the Report stage, we can provide something better. As the hon. Member for Wycombe suggested, some of these absurdities are surviving relics of the D scheme. The item referring to baby hampers without lids is an example. Under the D scheme tax was calculated by the cubic content, and an article without a lid was held not to have any cubic content and it therefore did not come within the range of the D scheme. Even those which did paid scarcely any tax at all. When the scheme was abolished some were taxed at 5 per cent. and some at 30 per cent.—now reduced to 15 per cent.
    These variations are quite inexplicable to the people who make these goods and the mothers who buy them. Can the Chancellor explain why oval washing baskets are subject to tax while oblong ones are free of tax? They are exactly the same articles except for their shape. Further, can he say why washing requisites, such as wash boards, draining boards, clothes lines, clothes props, clothes pegs and all the drudging paraphernalia of the poorer housewives are taxed at all? Will he give a scientific explanation of the 15 per cent. tax on a cutlery canteen when the same canteen with legs is chargeable at only 5 per cent.?
    According to their temperament, hon. Members may find these things either

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    boring or amusing. But they are not funny to the workers who suffer under them, or to managements who have to spend long, wasted, frustrated hours in trying to run their business under such handicaps. They have resulted in loss to the country and they rouse anger and contempt for a stupid law and the people who make it.
    In November, 1955, when this tax of 30 per cent. was first placed on a wide variety of household goods which had formerly been tax free, I moved Amendments to abolish the proposed taxes on brushes and on shopping baskets. I quoted facts and figures as to the likely effect on the employment of blind and disabled workers. The then Chancellor accepted those arguments and abolished the tax. Now the articles are exempt. The same arguments apply with equal force to the remaining long list of goods, and although we are grateful that the tax has been halved, there is an urgent need for it to be abolished altogether.
    As was said by the hon. Member for Wycombe, this is particularly the case in the furniture trade. The Committee will be aware that this industry has been singled out in the last three years for constant attack by the Government. It was the first to be subjected to hire-purchase restrictions and these are still heavy and crippling. Each year at certain periods more than half the workers in the industry have been unemployed or put on short-time. Some firms have scarcely worked a full week in a whole year. Many thousands of workers have left the industry and this year the trouble is recurring.
    In my own constituency one firm employing over 300 workers is working one week and laying off for two weeks. Another is working only one' day a week. In one trade union branch with 3,500 members there are 2,500 who are on short-time. That situation is developing throughout the country. I ask the Chancellor—who has met members of the industry more than once and knows that they are reasonable people—to help the industry by reducing the tax still being charged.
    I ask him to realise that this tax does not end at 15 per cent—3s. in the £. For the retailers, who have to pay this money, it is money at risk. If the tax is changed they have, in the main, to
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    lose it, and so, in most cases, they add their own bit. I know that used to be forbidden by controls, but that is so no longer. The retailers regard the risk of tax payment on the uplifted price as a cost, and add on their bit. So it is not just 3s. in the £ by the time it reaches the housewife. It is considerably more.
    Moreover, there is the considerable cost to manufacturers caused by their staff acting as unpaid tax gatherers. Eventually, that cost, also, is added. I do not believe that it would be an over-estimation to say that whatever Purchase Tax is imposed by the Chancellor, with the additions I have mentioned, the amount is nearly doubled by the time it reaches the general public. Therefore, do not let us imagine that it is only 15 per cent., or 3s. in the £ which is added to the price charged by the manufacturer or the wholesaler to the retailer. The amount is considerably more than that, and it has a far greater impact on prices.
    If the Government are sincere in their efforts to stabilise and eventually to reduce the cost of living, the best way to indicate that would be by removing this tax. Because of its anomalies and absurdities, and the very bad effect on industry and employment, and also because of the unnecessarily high prices charged to the housewife on absolutely essential goods, I hope that the Chancellor will review this matter and remove the tax.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: The Chancellor of the Exchequer made an appeal to the National Production Advisory Council to increase exports, and all engaged in industry desire to respond to that plea. The margin between retaining our standard of living in this country and catastrophe is so narrow that it behoves us all to respond to an appeal of that character.
    This morning figures were made available relating to the industry with which workers in my constituency are concerned. Because of their seriousness, we desire to underline the plea which is made to abolish this restrictive revenue tax on the export trade. I remember when this tax was introduced for the purpose of restricting consumption. It is no longer imposed for that purpose; it is now a revenue tax, and it ought to be regarded as such.

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    The following figures will reveal the worsening trading position in relation to industry in my constituency. For stoneware, brown earthenware and other colours, the total exported for the first four months of 1955 was approximately 201,000 cwt. In 1957 the figure was approximately 187,000 cwt. The total of china—and this particularly affects my constituency—which was exported in 1955 amounted approximately to 32,000 cwt. For the first four months of this year the figure was 22,000 cwt.
    Because of the seriousness of these figures, and knowing the potential of this industry and what an enormously increased contribution it could make to the export trade, we wish to urge the importance of this matter upon the Chancellor. We speak not only on behalf of those engaged in industry, irrespective of their political differences, but also for all well-informed people in the areas we represent.
    At the beginning of 1940, when this tax was first imposed, I was strongly opposed to it. Members of my party also were against it, and I remember that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) pleaded at a party meeting that we should agree to the imposition of this tax. Because of our desire to put aside everything else in an effort to make a maximum contribution to winning the war, and against our ideas, we agreed to the imposition of this tax for the purpose of restricting consumption. But that is no longer its purpose. The Chancellor himself has admitted that in answer to Questions asked in the House.
    4.30 p.m.
    This is putting industry into a terrible position. It was most unfair of Governments, irrespective of political complexion, to put an industry into this position. It is easy for us all to talk, but when we are put to the test it is our constructive contributions to the economic affairs of the country that matter, because they increase output and stimulate exports. It is most unfair to be constantly putting productive industry into a position of uncertainty. Governments are responsible for determining the economic position of the country, yet no industries have been put more into uncertainty than the cotton industry and that which I am
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    privileged to represent, the pottery industry. No industries could make a greater contribution to increasing Britain's exports than those two. I am speaking for the pottery industry and shall limit myself in that way on the Amendment.
    In the First World War we were subject to concentration, which introduced uncertainty. From 1930 to 1940 we were subject to severe and unfair foreign competition. In 1940, two huge R. A. F. stations were built on the fringe of our city, and as a result the industry was concentrated so that the area could make a greater contribution to winning the war. In 1945, Sir Stafford Cripps came to Stoke and appealed to the industry not to be discouraged by the uncertainties of the past. He undertook that from then onwards, owing to the country's serious economic difficulties, exports would be expanded and output increased and a situation would be created in the industry in which there would never be uncertainty again.
    The people believed that and accepted it. Never have I known greater good will in any industrial area in peace time. The result was that managements had no labour difficulties. The whole industrial machine worked like a conveyor belt. Output increased and people were eager to be trained. They went to evening schools to adapt themselves to become better decorators. The industry was able to increase its exports. Nobody knows this better than the Chancellor of the Exchequer because he was President of the Board of Trade at the time, and he once had the privilege of representing Stafford. He knows the enormous good will that existed.
    We were given an undertaking that Purchase Tax would be removed. Instead of that, approximately eighteen months later the tax was raised. My hon. Friends were very concerned, because they saw uncertainty again creeping in. We were again being affected by severe foreign competition from Japan and Germany, and the industry began to feel discouraged. We have had this fiddling time after time. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, quite rightly, went to the National Production Council and appealed for increased output. Representatives who were present went back to their areas and gave a report, but in some

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    cases were met with scepticism because of the fiddling and the uncertainty.
    It is time all this was stopped. Let me state the position of one firm, Wedgwoods. I thank my noble Friend. I speak of him in that way because he was a great man and I have a lot to thank him for. He was Colonel Josiah Wedgwood, a very courageous man. The firm embarked upon large capital expenditure. Wedgwoods built a new factory in a beautiful environment which had to be seen to be believed. It is a credit to the Wedgwoods, to the district and to the country. They increased their output per person by 50 per cent., although in the pottery industry generally output has increased by only 15 per cent. since 1946. What were the thanks of the Government for all this effort? A continuation of this restrictive revenue tax on the export trade, which has resulted in a reduction of employees in the industry from about 76,000 to about 70,000.
    I admit that I differ from a number of my hon. Friends in what I am going to say now, which is that I feel uneasy about the Government's proposals relating to the European Free Trade Area.
    Mr. Nabarro: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: I do not go as far as many people do in this matter, and I must express my reasons, because the issue is becoming urgent now. All these taxes should be taken off in order that we might compete upon an equal basis with those whom we expect to be our competitors. We must prepare for the future severe competition when the European Free Trade Area—the alleged free market—begins to work.
    Those who are well informed tell me that the industry requires a large home market. The purchase of chinaware for table use is lower in Britain than in the United States, Canada or New Zealand, yet we make the pottery which is admired throughout the world. My hon. Friend the Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. Collins) has referred to the backwardness that exists even in the House of Commons in regard to pottery, and that applies throughout the country. I would like the Chancellor of the Exchequer to listen to this point with special care.
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    I do not agree with his policy, but I understand it. There is nothing inconsistent with the Chancellor's policy in the plea that we now make for an increased home market for our trade. We claim that we need no imports for this industry and that therefore the industry is all exports. It is therefore quite consistent with the Chancellor's policy. I am pleased to see that the Economic Secretary to the Treasury is present. If he can point out any economic contradictions in the case that I am presenting I shall be glad to hear them. A relatively large home market would increase our export trade. Does the Economic Secretary accept that statement? What is there against taking this discouraging revenue-raising tax off the pottery industry? It is no longer a Purchase Tax in the usually accepted interpretation of the term for restricting consumption, but remains for the purpose of raising revenue and no other purpose.
    If we go into the West End we see the standard of living of people there. We have to increase our exports so as to increase our output to increase our exports so that they can go on living like that. [Laughter] If anyone doubts the logic of that they should interrupt. In the industrial areas wages have not gone up relatively in proportion to the increase in the standard of living of those people. It is true that our earnings have gone up. but employers are beginning to repudiate the assurances given to us in the last twenty years. They have told us year after year to increase output to the ceiling. They have said, "No matter how you increase output, your earnings will go up." Now they are beginning to say, especially in the engineering industry, that our income must be calculated on the basis of earnings and not upon the calculation of our wages. The logic of the position is that we are working in the export trade to maintain the increasing parasitical position of those living in the Dorchesters of the West End of London and other large cities.
    The Temporary Chairman (Sir Norman Hulbert): I must remind the hon. Member that there is nothing in this Amendment dealing with wages or with the Dorchester.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: We are asking for the Purchase Tax to be removed. Those

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    engaged in industry are working to increase exports and they could be increased much more if Purchase Tax were taken off. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) may be upset by the word "Dorchester" as he may frequent that hotel, but I have never been there.
    Mr. Nabarro: I am not upset at all. I made a constructive observation that the Dorchester Hotel in Park Lane happens to be a very big dollar earner.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: I did not hear the observation.
    Mr. Nabarro: It was important and highly constructive.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: If those who frequent the Dorchester would accept work in the pottery industry they might increase dollar earnings even more. If I pursue this, Sir Norman will rule me out of order, and I do not want to get out of order.
    This country is putting itself in a very vulnerable position. We are putting too many of our eggs in one basket. Speaking from memory. I believe that 80 per cent of our exports come from the engineering industry. We are neglecting pottery and similar industries by concentrating on the engineering industry. The pottery industry could increase its output and increase its exports if only it were given the encouragement it should have. That would be consistent with the alleged policy of the Government of increasing backward areas because, by increasing exports—
    Mr. Cooper: We do not want to increase backward areas but to decrease them.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: I thank hon. Members opposite for their interjections, but they only emphasise that if we did as I suggest, instead of drinking tea from jam jars, as people have to do in too many parts of the world, they would be drinking tea from our beautiful pottery. The case we are making is so unanswerable that one cannot understand even this Government continuing their policy.
    4.45 p.m.
    The first essential step is to take off all restrictions on exports. This is a restriction on exports. The Government
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    are constantly saying that we should remove all restrictions on industry, and we agree with that. Relatively speaking, the workers put no restrictions on industry. We support the plea and, therefore, say: remove this restriction on our export trade. If the Government did that it would be a big step in the direction in which we want to travel.
    Ministers have given many assurances about the economic Free Trade Area. The logic of those assurances is that these restrictions at home should be removed. Will the Chancellor give an assurance that this restrictive tax on pottery will be removed as soon as possible? We are hoping that he will remove it today. If he cannot do so today, in order to remove some of the uncertainty from the industry, will he give an undertaking to re-examine this restrictive tax on the export trade so as to encourage the industry to a greater extent than it has been encouraged in the last few years?
    Mr. Nabarro: I speak for one moment only in this interesting debate. Two powerful pleas have been made to my right hon. Friend to reduce Purchase Tax on pottery. They were in extenuation of pleas made to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer at Question Time on many occasions since November. I have repeatedly made the point, and make it shortly this afternoon, that it would be a very damaging and discriminatory policy to give any relief from Purchase Tax to the pottery industry which was not equally applied to the carpet industry of Kidderminster.
    Mrs. Jean Mann: I wish to support the third Amendment relating to Group 11, with special reference to Purchase Tax which, for the first time, has been levied by any Chancellor on a safety device in the home. I believe that this comes under ironmongery. I tried to elicit information in a Question I put on 23rd May, when I asked the Chancellor
    "when Purchase Tax was first imposed on the Crayleigh safeguard for gas and electric cookers; and how much has been collected…."
    Here is the astonishing perversion of a reply I received:
    "Articles of this kind have been chargeable with Purchase Tax since October. 1940."

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    That is simply incorrect. The reply further stated that
    "The amount of tax collected on them is not separately known."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd May, 1957; Vol. 570, c. 1380.]
    I wish to point out that there never has been a tax imposed on a gas or electric cooker but now that an invention, which won the Inventors' Club of Great Britain and Overseas Award of £200 on the B. B. C., has arrived, the Chancellor immediately imposes a 30 per cent. Purchase Tax on it. That was about three months before the Budget. There could not, therefore, have been very much collected on this cooker. It is a strange anomaly that while a cooker which is unsafe is not taxed, immediately it is made safe it is taxed.
    Surely I do not need to remind the Committee that deaths from accidents in the home far outnumber deaths from accidents on the roads. The death rate from such accidents is highest from accidents with the open fire, secondly, from accidents with electric and gas radiators, and, thirdly, from scalds. The greatest number of those accidents are caused from catching a pot handle on a cooker. There has never been a tax on the fireguard. There were enough of us in the House at that time to have our plea accepted by Sir Stafford Cripps, and his predecessor in the so-called "pots and pans Budget" refrained from imposing a tax on the fire-guard. So we had the very article which gives protection from the greatest number of deaths completely exempt from Purchase Tax.
    The second highest number of accidents comes from the open elements of the gas and electric cooker. Again, there came to the rescue a device, the protective netting that is fixed over these elements by either the gas or the electricity board. It is entirely free of tax. Just three months before the Budget, and after this prize had been won by this young inventor, competing with other inventors in Britain and overseas, the North Thames Gas Board very generously undertook to perfect this device.
    After working on it for six months, the board was completely satisfied about its efficiency. It is extremely valuable in that it prevents a child from pulling a pot by its handle off the cooker. It is also valuable to a disabled person, or
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    someone who has only one hand. It is, even more valuable to the blind person who gropes over the top of the cooker.
    I would remind the Financial Secretary of his right hon. Friend's reply to me that the amount recovered in Purchase Tax was not known. May I point out that the amount spent in hospital treatment as a result of scalds is even more than that spent in treatment as a result of the deadly accident caused by the nightdress? The nightdress is so deadly that very often there is no cure for injury through accidents caused in that way. The scald is not so deadly, but requires much more prolonged hospital treatment.
    I know that there is a home safety group in the House, composed of hon. Members on both sides who have agreed that this tax should be removed. I had a letter from the Chancellor, confirming that he had received letters from his own side of the Committee as well as from this side at a time when we had a report from the British Standards Institution urging that the Government should go forward in a great drive towards home safety. This is the last time we should think of imposing a tax the removal of which we have looked forward to for many years.
    The Minister of Health has issued leaflets which have been sent to hospitals, clinics and health centres throughout the country pointing out the danger of the unprotected and unguarded cooker. These leaflets, which are very expensive and well prepared, would be quite needless if the cooker were fitted with a safety device. I beg the right hon. Gentleman not to depart from the principle established by his predecessors in regard to safety in the home and especially in respect of appliances which would prevent many accidents every day.
    Dame Irene Ward: I want to add my plea to the proposals which have been put forward by the hon. Lady the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann). I think that she made a most practical and useful speech. I feel that there is something positively revolting in applying Purchase Tax to anything which will help in the prevention of accidents. I can only assume, as I attempted to say when the hon

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    Lady raised this matter by way of question and answer at Question Time, that it has not been gone into sufficiently by my right hon. Friend and by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. If it had been, I cannot imagine that steps would not have been taken to eliminate this anomaly.
    I have had a letter signed by the Financial Secretary in which he points out that the main purpose of Purchase Tax is revenue-raising. Of course, quite apart from what I would call the accident side and the human side of this subject, there is the question of assessing properly whether we are losing or gaining by the imposition of this tax. It is one of my objections to Governments of all kinds that they work departmentally. They do not seem to be capable on small levels of getting together and really finding out whether in the last analysis the country is losing money or gaining money.
    I take the one point about hospitals and the hospital treatment necessary after accidents have been caused due to insufficient care being taken in the home. If we assess the amount that is spent in the hospitals and set that against the Purchase Tax collected on safety devices, I imagine—I am not a very good mathematician—that there would be a saving of expenditure by encouraging people to use safety devices. We would save on hospital expenditure the amount which now has to be spent in treating people as a result of accidents.
    From the woman's point of view, there is nothing more exasperating than to have a lot of men sitting on the Front Bench who are not particularly interested in how a home is run, except as it affects their own comfort. That is really the most exasperating thing in the world.
    The medical service is composed both of men and women, but the nursing service in the main is provided by my own sex. It is more than one can bear to have to use this kind of pressure in order to get a little bit of common sense knocked into the heads of those on the Treasury Front Bench. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I know that hon. Members cheer, but they did not pay much attention to some of the practical suggestions which were made when they were in Government.
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    It is something that happens to people in Government. They do not like detail. They like declaiming on a large scale, but they are not at all good when it comes down to discussing detail. Those who are responsible for advising the Ministers keep saying to them—I can see it happening—"Administratively this would be so difficult and so complicated, and it would make it much more difficult to collect the tax if we did something on the lines suggested by the hon. Lady ".
    5.0 p.m.
    I want to extend what I am saying to another matter, because, as I have said, I recently received a letter from the Financial Secretary about a point which I raised on behalf of the Electrical Association for Women. As I have said, he replied, of course, that this is a revenue-raising tax.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: I wonder why the hon. Lady introduced the words "of course" into that sentence. I do not regard is as a matter of course that the Government regard Purchase Tax chiefly as a revenue tax. There has always been considerable doubt about that. Without making a long story of it in an intervention, I remember that when the present Home Secretary, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, introduced his famous autumn Budget and put heavy Purchase Tax on trivial household articles, he expressly said that he did not want the money at all and that what he wanted was to prevent people from buying them.
    Dame Irene Ward: I was very interested in that intervention. It is not often that I find myself in the happy position of being able to teach the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) something. I will just read the sentence which has been written to me by the Financial Secretary and then I will make the point to the Financial Secretary, for I do not intend to let either hon. Member off. He wrote:
    "The main purpose of the Purchase Tax generally is its important contribution to the revenue."
    That is what the Financial Secretary has written to me.
    Although I hardly ever agree with the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne, I would say that he has quite a flair for psychology. He probably knows that

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    when we change Financial Secretaries or Chancellors of the Exchequer, the new occupants of those offices put different interpretations on these matters. That is another of those maddening things which infuriate women like me. I like to think of myself as a very logical creature. One of the fallacies in which the general public are led to believe is that men are more logical than women. There could be no greater fallacy.
    I wrote to the Financial Secretary and asked why there was no tax on electric radiators when there was a tax on oil radiators.
    Mr. Nabarro: Surely the hon. Lady has exactly reversed the facts. There is no Purchase Tax on oil radiators but there is a 60 per cent. Purchase Tax on electric radiators.
    Dame Irene Ward: I am delighted, again, at that intervention, because I should like to tell my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) something, too. He is so quick at popping up. He does not quite understand that the Financial Secretary is so sparing in his words that he does not repeat in the letter the point made by the Association. In order to save time I did not intend to read it all. By the time I reached the end of the sentence I had realised that I had stated the position the wrong way round. If my hon. Friend would allow others occasionally to think that they know something, it would be a help.
    I sent to the Financial Secretary a very logically composed letter from the Electrical Association for Women. I will spare the Committee by not reading it, but it was a very logical letter to the Financial Secretary asking whether he would kindly explain why there was this discrimination. That was all: why this discrimination? If the Financial Secretary had taken the trouble to answer he might not have had this attack made on him this afternoon. I do no like taking the trouble to send letters only to get idiotic answers. In his letter the Financial Secretary does not refer to the question at all, except by the way. He writes:
    "You sent me on 20th May this letter from the Electrical Association for Women about the Purchase Tax on electrical appliances."
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    It also mentioned oil heaters. That is the whole point. The Financial Secretary does it so, badly, yet, after all, he is supposed to be first class.
    Mr. Nabarro: On a point of order. Although this is highly entertaining, you will recall, Sir Norman, that I had consultations with the Table before the Purchase Tax debate whether it would be in order for me to raise the question of differential rates on gas and electricity appliances, the very question now being raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward). It was ruled that that was completely out of order in this context, and that the only way in which it could be associated with our Purchase Tax debate was in connection with the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." A subsection of the Clause, as it is drafted, deals with hand appliances but specifically excludes gas and electricity. The shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, at Question Time, supported that Ruling given by the Table. In those circumstances, is any of this discussion in order?
    Dame Irene Ward: Further to that point of order. I ask my hon. Friend not to be so pompous. Before you give me your Ruling, Sir Norman, I would point out that I am following exactly the same lines as those followed by the hon. Lady the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) on Purchase Tax being applied to some safety devices when other safety devices are free of tax. I have made my speech and I have found a great deal of pleasure in explaining what I wanted to say. I therefore do not mind whether I am ruled out of order. Being logical, however, I wonder why the hon. Lady was allowed to make her speech, if the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster is legitimate.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Before you finally rule on this most interesting question, Sir Norman, and since you have not yet ruled the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) out of order—and, for my part, I hope you will not—may I ask how it is in order for the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) to make a long speech on a point of order claiming that his hon. Friend is doing exactly what he himself wanted to do?
    The Temporary Chairman (Sir Norman Hulbert): I was rather apprehensive when the hon. Lady the Member for Tyne-mouth (Dame Irene Ward) announced her intention of reading a letter. I understood her to say that it did not refer to Purchase Tax.
    Dame Irene Ward: It refers to Purchase Tax.
    The Temporary Chairman: I thought the hon. Lady was complaining that the Minister's letter did not refer to the matter.
    Hon. Members: The hon. Lady should read the letter.
    Dame Irene Ward: It refers to Purchase Tax.
    The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Lady is reasonably in order so far.
    Dame Irene Ward: I will spare my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster any comment and continue with the letter:
    "The main purpose of the Purchase Tax generally is its important contribution to the revenue; but I have noted your correspondent's representations about the tax on these appliances and will bear them in mind together with the point she makes about oil heaters."
    I return to my basic theme. I really am most anxious, as a logical Member of Parliament, to get to the bottom of this discrimination. I suggest to the Treasury that we women—and I represent many women as well as men voters—want to know what is at the bottom of this discriminatory tax. It covers a very wide field, and I suggest to my right hon. Friend that before he presents his next Budget, to which I look forward, he will take the opportunity to go through the whole of the Purchase Tax procedure in detail.
    I know that he will not take what I have said amiss. I have known him for a long time, and he knows that from time to time when I become exasperated I exercise my rights and privileges as Member of Parliament to attack all Governments. I should like to ask him whether he would like to substitute for some of his advisers in the Treasury, who are very learned but not necessarily human, some of the women members of the House of Commons who could advise him on the details which we have been discussing today. I am sure that he could get an all-party deputation which would
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    sit hour after hour doing the detailed work. That would be in the interests of good government, and the Chancellor is interested, as I am, in good government. I say at once that we get good government from the Conservatives and that very often we get bad government from the Socialists.
    I should like my right hon. Friend to take the matter seriously. Let us get away from the interminable, idiotic discussions which have to take place at Budget time on details of this kind. If the Financial Secretary is to reply to the debate, I am looking forward to see whether he can, out of his great classical brain, bring this matter down to the details of home life and let me know the answer which he should have given me in the letter.
    Mr. Tom Brown: I support what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann), who advocated that Purchase Tax on safety appliances should be cancelled forthwith. I do so because there are many safety appliances used in the homes and in the pits, and I regret that many of them carry Purchase Tax. It is generally agreed that we should do all we can to make it easier for people to be able to buy and use safety appliances. My hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie is a strong advocate of their use wherever possible, and especially in the homes. It is the duty of the Government to look after not only the comfort but the safety of the citizen.
    However much may be the revenue from a tax upon safety appliances, it is criminal folly to tax them. Many conferences held in the last year or so have expressed approval, without a dissentient voice, of proposals that Purchase Tax on safety appliances should be cancelled forthwith. Let us examine the figures. There were 7,500 deaths by accident in the home last year, mostly of people over the age of 65 or under five, and over 6,000 on the roads. One might say that children under five are being hurled to death and that old people are dying just because they cannot afford to purchase safety appliances. We know that in the pits appliances have been the means of preventing loss of life. If we can prevent loss of life or injury by making it easier for safety appliances to be purchased then we should do so.

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    5.15 p.m
    It will have been gathered from the speeches from this side of the Committee and from the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) that these Amendments seek, in the main, to do two things. One is to help our export trade, and the other is to help our home markets. Hon. Members are anxious that the decline in exports, especially from the pottery industry, should be arrested. We are told that since Purchase Tax was levied on pottery two or three years ago the decline in the export trade has reached distressing proportions. Therefore, I repeat that if we can do anything to increase the exports of one of our oldest industries we should do so.
    A big point was made by the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Glover) a few days ago. when I took him to task and he reciprocated. He was talking about increased productivity. We hear a lot about that. We cannot increase productivity by reducing the personnel of an industry, and that is what we are doing. The number employed in the pottery industry has been declining. We have trained men and women who can perform a skilled job and compete with the Japanese and the Germans, but they are prevented because their product cannot be sold. If the Financial Secretary wishes to increase productivity, he ought to cancel Purchase Tax.
    Mr. Cyril Osborne: The hon. Gentleman says that we cannot increase the production of an industry and, at the same time, reduce the number employed in it.
    Mr. S. Silverman: He did not say that.
    Mr. Osborne: The hon. Gentleman is always right. What he will do in the next world, I do not know; but the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) did say that, and he overlooked that we have installed machinery to get greater production from fewer workers.
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Member, whose economics are very often wrong except in replying to the business side of it and not to the workers' side, perhaps does not know that there is very little machinery in the pottery industry. He had better get his facts right. I agree that by the introduction of labour-saving machines in
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    industry we increase to some extent productivity and employ a smaller number of people.
    Dr. Stross: Would my hon. Friend instruct the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne) that the prime tool of the potter is his hand and that there is no machine tool in the world to compare with it for this industry? The industry in North Staffordshire is the most rationalised in the world. We do not need anyone who is unskilled, and does not know it, to tell us how to get production.
    Mr. Brown: My hon. Friend has conveyed the information to the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne), so I do not need to tell him anything further.
    Let us examine the history of the Purchase Tax. It has been truly said that it was never intended to continue as a revenue-raising tax after the war. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) said, both inside and outside this House, at trade union meetings and at conferences, the plea was made to the industrial workers to do this as our contribution to winning the war. The response was magnificent. No people in any country in the world made a greater response to that plea for them to accept Purchase Tax.
    The tax was levied on 21st October, 1940. The rate at that time was 16⅔ per cent. as against 33⅓ per cent. on other types of domestic pottery. The tax was repealed in 1946, and was reinstituted at a rate of 30 per cent. in the supplementary Budget of 1955—the Finance Act (No. 2). I spoke against it then. I speak against it now. I believe that Purchase Tax is the wrong way of raising revenue. There are other ways. The hon. Member for Ilford, South has always been an advocate of a sales tax, and though I am not prepared to accept that 100 per cent. there is something in the suggestion that a sales tax would be better than the Purchase Tax, with its anomalies. No right hon. or hon. Gentleman can examine the Purchase Tax on many articles without finding, in the case of almost every one of them, anomalies of some kind.
    I appeal to the Chancellor to give very serious consideration to the amount involved. if he cancels Purchase Tax on pottery completely, how much will he lose? We talk sometimes about saving

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    £1,000 here and £1,000 there, but this year the right hon. Gentleman has budgeted for approximately £5,000 million. If he cancels the Purchase Tax now under consideration, he will stand to lose only about £2¾ million in pottery. What does that mean? It represents about one-twentieth part of 1 per cent. of his Budget total.
    Surely we are not so poor as not to be able to afford that. Think of the benefits that would accrue to the industry, and to the home market. I beg the Chancellor to listen to the plea made from this side, and to make up his mind once and for all—to be courageous enough—to cancel Purchase Tax; and to say that the goods on which the tax was put in years gone by shall be tax free. If he does that, he will win the approbation of all our citizens.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. Enoch Powell): The Amendments which the Committee is considering together would respectively have the effect of removing Purchase Tax altogether upon the four groups mentioned in the Clause, of reducing it to 5 per cent., of removing it from Group 11, or of reducing the tax upon Group 11 to 5 per cent. The cost in estimated loss of revenue of these four proposals is respectively £24 million, £16 million, £9 million and £6 million.
    The Committee will no doubt recall that on the Second Reading of this Bill my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made it clear that he did not feel himself able to go far beyond the limit of about £100 million in tax concessions contained in the Budget. It will, therefore, be evident to the Committee that reductions in Purchase Tax upon the scale suggested by any of these Amendments would be outside the limit within which the Chancellor feels it necessary to remain—
    Mrs. Mann: Surely, that does not apply to the safety cooker device. It was unknown a year ago.
    Mr. Powell: I will come to the point which the hon. Lady and my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) made, but I am here dealing with the Amendments which are being discussed by the Committee.
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    The accusation has been made from the opposite side of the Committee that this is an inflationary Budget. It would certainly be inflationary to release further purchasing power to that extent by way of further relief in Purchase Tax—
    Mr. Frank Beswick: We want to follow this argument. In most years when we have had what I may, perhaps, call a rather boring debate on Purchase Tax, this argument has been accepted. This year, however, there is a new feature. Never before has there been a concession of £30 million to the Surtax payer, such as is contained in this Budget. How can what the hon. Gentleman says be justified in that situation?
    Mr. Powell: At the moment, the Committee is considering Purchase Tax, and whether it will be right, within its scope, to make several remissions of taxation of the order that I have indicated which would certainly go direct to consumption. I want to make clear that such remissions would be quite outside the scope which my right hon. Friend has set for himself in this Budget.
    Perhaps I may now take the individual points which have been made in the course of the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) referred to the apparent anomaly of the domestic furniture which is taxed at 5 per cent., and the articles of furniture, which he mentioned, which may equally be domestic or office furniture and which will, in future, be taxed at 15 per cent. instead of 30 per cent. Of course, he realises that in the group concerned—Group 11—a distinction is drawn between furniture used for domestic purposes, and other furniture. The great difficulty about the type of articles to which my hon. Friend referred is that it is really impracticable to distinguish them according to whether they are used for domestic or for non-domestic purposes. It is really that difficulty that virtually necessitates their being left outside the 5 per cent. Group—
    Mr. John Hall: Does the Financial Secretary think that hat racks and umbrella stands will be used very much for non-domestic purposes?
    Mr. Powell: They are certainly articles of office furniture—
    Mr. Cooper: And in normal houses.
    Mr. Powell: They are not specifically for domestic purposes, and it is articles of furniture for domestic purposes which attract the 5 per cent. rate. Indeed, it is this type of difficulty in making the distinctions involved in the groups which leads to the difficulties of definition to which the hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. Collins) referred—
    Mr. Chapman: But is it not the case that bookcases are in an exactly similar category and can equally well be both industrial and domestic, but they are, in fact, taxed at only 5 per cent.?
    Mr. John Hall: I hope my hon. Friend will forgive my further interruption, but if that is the point that he is making, would he look down the list of domestic items, where we have tables, chairs, trolleys and writing tables, all of which have an application outside the home?
    Mr. Powell: But, in the first place, those are specified in Group 11 (b), and, in the second place, if my hon. Friend will look at the detailed notices, he will see that great care is taken to distinguish the domestic from the office type in the application of Purchase Tax.
    The hon. Members for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), and for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) referred to Purchase Tax on pottery, and drew attention to the fall in employment in the pottery industry that has taken place in the last year or two. I do not accept that the changes which they mention are necessarily entirely or even largely connected with the Purchase Tax, but it will be clear that even if it is not possible at present to go further than my right hon. Friend has done, the halving of the Purchase Tax upon those articles must bring very substantial relief, and I would not be so pessimistic as to suggest that the revenue will be more than halved, as was the conjecture of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central.
    5.30 p.m.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) discussed the alternative of a sales tax to the Purchase Tax. He argued that the tax in its present form, if I may use his words, "puts everybody into a state of complete uncertainty ". I am sure that he will appreciate that for that reason it would be quite impossible for me to comment one way or the other
    258
    upon the remarks which he has made, but he has made his point and it has, of course, been noted.
    I now come to the question raised by the hon. Lady the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) and my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth. There is a great range of articles which incorporate some form of safety device or other or are to some degree or other protective in their nature, and I think it is recognised that it would be impracticable for Purchase Tax purposes to distinguish between an article which has or has not a safety device or an article with a more or less effective safety device. Accordingly, articles which embody safety devices follow the Purchase Tax of the article in question. That is why, as the hon. Lady pointed out, a safety device incorporated in a cooker does not attract Purchase Tax, since the cooker itself is not liable to Purchase Tax.
    The difficulty in the case of this appliance which the hon. Lady mentioned is that, being a separate article from the cooker, it falls inevitably to be classified as ironmongery which, as I quite correctly informed the hon. Lady, has been subject to Purchase Tax ever since the inception of the tax.
    Mrs. Mann Mrs. Mann rose—
    Mr. Powell: May I carry on for one sentence more?
    Dame Irene Ward: Let the hon. Lady have her say.
    Mr. Powell: The great difficulty is in accurately describing this particular safety device or this class of safety device so that it can be distinguished as against other types of ironmongery. Nevertheless, my right hon. Friend will consider whether a satisfactory definition for that purpose can be devised. The hon. Lady will appreciate that it would be impossible within the scope of order to make an amendment to that effect in the Finance Bill, but my right hon. Friend will without commitment consider whether this difficulty of a sufficiently accurate definition within the scope of ironmongery can be overcome.
    Mr. Collins: While the Chancellor is considering that, will he also look at other examples where there is no difficulty in deciding that articles are for domestic

    259
    use? For example, baby hampers cannot be other than domestic. Why should there be two different rates of tax depending on whether they have lids or not?
    Mr. Powell: I am not sure that there are not some difficulties which the hon Gentleman has failed to see, but obviously the points which he has brought out will be looked at.
    Dr. Stross: Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that from a practical and an ethical point of view, we would do best if we were to tax all dangerous instruments of the kind referred to if they had no safety device attached, and free them entirely if there were a safety device?
    Mr. Powell: If the hon. Gentleman were to apply that in practice, he would find great difficulty with whole ranges of articles in deciding just at what stage they could properly be regarded as being fitted with an effective safety device. Very arbitrary decisions would be taken by those collecting the Purchase Tax. Anyway, I think the Committee realises the difficulty. My right hon. Friend will consider whether it can be solved in this case by the definition which would be necessary.
    We have to look at all these points within the general context, not only of the fact that a reduction in Purchase Tax of £24 million in a full year has been made within the framework of this Budget, but that the relief which the Budget brings has been spread over a much wider range of articles, in fact, over a range of goods the trade in which is three times greater than that on which the tax was imposed eighteen months ago. Two of the groups on which tax is now being reduced from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent. carried tax at 331 per cent. when the party opposite went out of office.
    I would, therefore, suggest to the Committee that within the scope of the resources which were available in the Budget for this purpose, it was right to distribute the relief over these four groups in the way in which that has been done.
    Mr. Douglas Jay: The Financial Secretary has given a rather timid and unconvincing reply to a most powerful attack on the Government by the hon. Lady the Member for Tyne-mouth (Dame Irene Ward).
    Mr. Nabarro: Thoroughly misguided.
    Mr. Jay: The hon. Lady will class the Financial Secretary as hardly human from now on.
    I thought that he was equally unresponsive to the very strong case made by hon. Members on behalf of the furniture and pottery industries. After all, if he is going to answer every request for relief by saying that the Chancellor has made up his mind not to remit any more revenue, it is hardly any use debating these matters in detail whatever. In any case, we on this side of the Committee take the view that much more revenue has been relinquished to Surtax payers than is necessary, and that it might much better be used to permit of some of the Amendments that we have put forward.
    This group of Amendments in effect proposes to reduce the 15 per cent. proposed by the Government on various goods, going more widely than pottery and furniture, either to 5 per cent. or to nil. As the hon. Lady urged us all to come down to details, I will ask the Financial Secretary one or two detailed questions First, can he assure me that the Financial Statement relating to the Budget which appears in his name is guilty of a misprint when it says, in page 19, that Group 8, including floor covering, is to have the Purchase "fax reduced? I take it that that is a misprint for Group 9. These matters are so difficult already that if in addition we have misprints in the Financial Statement, it really is a little hard to find out where we are going.
    Secondly, can the Financial Secretary tell us, either now or at some later stage, why the Government omit wallpaper—that is to say, Group 10—from these reliefs? Broadly speaking, there are reductions from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent. on various household necessities. Surely wallpaper is a normal household necessity. Apparently the Purchase Tax on wallpaper is to remain at 30 per cent. Presumably the Government have some reason for excluding it.
    Thirdly, why in the middle of Group 11 which we are dealing with—
    Mr. Nabarro: On a point of order. Many of us have been anxious to raise in this debate the question of those items which are excluded from Purchase Tax relief, and the Ruling has been given to

    261
    many of us in precise terms that as the Budget Resolutions have been drawn, it is not in order to deal in these debates with any item not referred to in the groups set out in Clause 6. How can it therefore be in order to talk about such items as wallpaper, in Group 10. which does not come under Clause 6?
    The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Gordon Touche): It is permissible to refer to it passing, but it is out of order to deal with it in any detail.
    Mr. Jay: Why the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) should so anxiously want to limit our debate, I do not know. I was going to refer to an item in Group 11 which is covered by the Clause, that is to say mirrors. The hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) pointed out that there are two rates of tax in the case of furniture, 5 per cent. and 15 per cent. Why do we have mirrors in solitary glory in this Group, taxed as high, I understand, as 60 per cent.? Is there some difficulty of administration, or do the Government think that there is something particularly vicious or subversive about mirrors?
    On the main issue, why is it that the Financial Secretary first decides to make this reduction from 30 to 15 per cent. and then refuses to go further, to 5 per cent. or a figure below that? Does this reduction mean that the Government have now completely abandoned the doctrine of the Lord Privy Seal in October, 1955, that one had to tax these household goods in order to stop people spending on other things? It would be a relief to the Committee to know that that policy had been definitely abandoned. If it has not, what other reason have the Government adopted for making this change now?
    The Committee will recall that the Lord Privy Seal and the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education held the doctrine that one had to raise the price of these household goods in order to stop people from spending money on other things. That was "Boyle's law", which has guided the Government's economic policy over the last two years. Are we now to understand that "Boyle's law" has been repealed or abandoned by the Government? We have, of course, a sort of "Powell's law" introduced in this Budget. The present Financial Secretary told us the other day that there was
    262
    no harm in having television duty because television sets cost so much already. "Powell's law" seems to be that, if one tax is already heavy, one is justified in putting another heavy tax upon it; and that, indeed, has some rather alarming implications for some of our debates yet to come.
    I hope that, when the Financial Secretary is considering Purchase Tax, he will recognise that, if one raises the tax on necessities, on the sort of goods the price of which is taken into account in wage negotiations, that is really not disinflationary, as the Lord Privy Seal thought, but it is directly inflationary. That has been the fallacy of Government policy over the last two years. If the Purchase Tax is raised on goods in the amenity or luxury class, whatever it may be, which do not affect wage negotiations, then, I agree, that may in some respects be disinflationary. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will, in future meditation on this subject, take into account that vital distinction.
    Since the whole of the Purchase Tax has got into such complication and confusion. will the Government say whether they are now taking this 30 per cent. tax off all the goods on which the Lord Privy Seal placed it in October, 1955? I have here the complete list of goods on which he placed the 30 per cent. tax then, though I will not read it unless the hon. Gentleman wishes me to do so. It is quite clear from the Financial Statement of that date that all goods on which the 30 per cent. tax was placed were exempt up to that moment. I hope that the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth will take note that, under the Labour Government, these household goods, housewife's kitchen goods and the rest, were altogether exempt from Purchase Tax, and a 30 per cent. tax was then imposed by the Lord Privy Seal.
    One thing is clear. First, the 30 per cent, is, in any case, only being reduced to 15 per cent.; it is not being swept away altogether, as we should like to see it. What is very difficult to gather from the various Purchase Tax schedules and documents that we have is whether some of the goods on which the Lord Privy Seal put this 30 per cent. still have a tax imposed on them at that rate. I wonder whether the Financial Secretary could tell us whether, in every case, the

    263
    goods are now exempt, or, alternatively, that the tax has been reduced to 15 per cent. or some other rate.
    In any case, we are not satisfied with leaving the tax on this range of household necessities at 15 per cent. We think that the reduction should go much farther, and that such a step would make a valuable contribution towards checking inflation and reducing the cost of living. If the Government cannot even now respond to the proposal, I hope that my hon. Friends will press this first Amendment to a Division.
    5.45 p.m.
    Mr. Chapman: Without going into the wider details mentioned by the Financial Secretary of the amounts of taxation he would be remitting by accepting some of these Amendments, I wish to express great disappointment at some of the things he had to say. What he has flatly refused to consider or omitted even to talk about in any detail is the very grave danger arising from the anomalies which have occurred in Group 11. I hope that he will, if he is to say a further word, reply to the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) and to one or two points which I wish to put, giving a categorical assurance that, even apart from big policy questions, he will look into these anomalies very carefully, because the situation has become quite ridiculous.
    We all know what happened. The Government, in 1955, wanted to put on a total tax of 30 per cent., but, largely because of representations by hon. Members on this side of the Committee who foresaw dangers of unemployment in the furniture making industry, the Government altered that part of the schedule and imposed a 5 per cent. tax. The inevitable consequence has followed. Immediately one starts splitting categories and making exceptions, one gets into the sort or mess that Group 11 is in now. The thing is quite ridiculous, as we have been trying to point out this afternoon. The Financial Secretary argues that he must retain a tax at 30 per cent. on hall stands and hat racks because they may be used in offices. On the other hand, a bookshelf or bookcase, which may well be used in an office, is singled out to remain at 5 per cent. The thing is topsy-turvy.
    The Financial Secretary tells us that great pains have been taken to make sure
    264
    that what are office things are separated from domestic things, but when we come to tables, that is not so at all. The only feature which is chosen as indicating a difference for the purpose of applying either 30 per cent. or 5 per cent. is the material of which they are made, metal or wood. If a man in an office is fortunate enough or sensible enough to buy a wooden table, he can do very nicely by paying 5 per cent., whereas the more stupid people buying metal tables will pay 30 per cent. This is really quite silly. The Financial Secretary says that there is logic in it and great pains have been taken to sort all these things out, but, in fact, quite the contrary is the case.
    We are told that a great effort has been made to except the domestic items and leave them at 5 per cent., but in page 29 one finds that things like deckchairs, seats for the garden, tables designed for garden umbrellas and camping or fishing stools. all of which, in this general category are really domestic and certainly have nothing to do with offices or industry, attract tax at 30 per cent., the industrial rate, instead of the domestic rate of 5 per cent. This goes on and on.
    I do not want to bore the Committee by going into more detail, but the fact remains that the hon. Gentleman's explanation was most unconvincing. It simply is not true that the schedule of Group 11 effectively sorts out industrial from domestic items and maintains a proper differentiation between the 5 per cent. and 30 per cent. rates accordingly. Without going into any of the great policy questions which some of the Amendments involve, I hope that if we cannot get any concession from the hon. Gentleman in terms of £ s. d., we can at least get a concession in terms of common sense and that he will put his officials on to the job of examining again the whole of the schedule. In the end, what the hon. Gentleman will have to do is to say that where any doubt exists, he had better put the items under the domestic level of 5 per cent. otherwise the whole thing will remain chaotic, as it is at the moment.
    Leaving aside the fact that many of us challenge the policy, there is a legitimate grievance on both sides that the position makes complete nonsense. The Financial Secretary should guarantee to clear it up.
    Mr. Beswick: I doubt whether we have ever heard a less satisfactory reply to a Purchase Tax debate than the reply we have just had from the Financial Secretary. He has so much Parliamentary skill and debating ability that the fact that he cannot put up a more convincing argument indicates that his case is indeed a bad one.
    How can the hon. Gentleman stand at the Dispatch Box and say that it would be inflationary to remove the 15 per cent. tax from a frying pan at a time when we are giving away £500 or £600 in tax reliefs to the Surtax payer?
    Mr. Osborne: We are not giving it to them.
    Mr. Beswick: I think the phrase was "releasing purchasing power". The fact is that it is a release of purchasing power, and I find it impossible to accept that the Financial Secretary believes what he said when he told us that it would be impossible in the present situation to release this purchasing power by taking the tax off kitchen utensils.
    Every hon. Member who has spoken has emphasised that there was no tax upon these kitchen items until two years ago. Not even during the war, when things were difficult for us, or in the days when we were building up our reserves after the war, did we have to resort to a tax of this kind. Then in 1955 the 30 per cent. was clamped on. I should have thought that this year, if we were to reduce the tax at all, we could have wiped it right out.
    If there had been an economic crisis and things were going badly, if there had been a demand for sacrifices all round and the Chancellor had said that he must keep a tax of 15 per cent. on these kitchen items, we might have accepted it. When, however, in this same Finace Bill, he is making concessions to the Surtax payers amounting to £30 million, he cannot use the argument about inflation concerning this tax on essential items of household use.
    For the Financial Secretary to have to say to his hon. Friends that he cannot correct an anomaly because the mass of confusion is now so great and the attempt to right other anomalies has created further anomalies, suggests that he is getting somewhere near to the madhouse stage. If the situation is as confused
    266
    and chaotic as all this, if the hon. Gentleman accepts that it is unfair, unjust and anomalous to have these taxes on certain items in domestic use, and that the administrative difficulties are great, cannot he give an assurance that in the next few months he will clean up the whole business of the levying of Purchase Tax? Cannot we have an indication that he accepts these arguments and will do something about them in the future?
    Mr Rankin: When the Financial Secretary replied to the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) concerning steel furniture, he said that the reason for the discrimination in tax was because steel furniture was not classified as domestic and was not being used in the home. On what assumption does the hon. Gentleman base that statement? The only reason he gives is that steel chairs, writing desks and a whole host of other things, which are now made in factories like Howden's in my constituency, are used exclusively in offices because that is what the Customs and Excise people say. That was the only basis on which the hon. Gentleman founded his case for excluding steel furniture from the operation of the 5 per cent, tax. That is the only ground on which he can justify the discrimination between steel and wood.
    Mr. Nabarro: On a point of order. As Group 11 does not include steel furniture, how can this reference conceivably be in order, Sir Gordon?
    The Deputy-Chairman: I was waiting to hear what the hon. Member had to say. I hope he will soon finish on that point.
    Mr. Chapman: Further to that point of order. Group 11, on page 29, specifically refers to steel furniture.
    Mr. Frederick Mulley: I understood, Sir Gordon, that an Amendment was called to reduce the rate of tax from 15 to 5 per cent., which would cover all the items in Clause 6.
    Mr. Rankin: My reading of Group 11 led me to believe that we could debate the issue on these Amendments. Before venturing to raise it, I sought assurance and was told that it would be quite in order.
    The reason I asked about the discrimination is that until 1952, when the D scheme was introduced, there was no discrimination between wooden and steel

    267
    furniture. They were both on the same level of taxation. If there was no argument against both types of furniture being on the same level of taxation prior to the introduction of the D scheme in 1952, it seems difficult for the Treasury now to establish an argument that in 1957 there should be discrimination.
    Prior to the Budget, the tax on steel furniture was 30 per cent. and on wooden furniture 5 per cent. By reducing the 30 per cent. to 15 per cent., as they have done, the Government have said that it was wrong to discriminate so severely, and that therefore they would reduce the difference. In effect they have said that they want to lessen discrimination. Their argument leads to one conclusion, that if it is bad to have discrimination at the 30 per cent. level it is just as bad to have it at the 15 per cent. level. Their own attitude towards the tax reinforces the argument which I seek to make, that there ought to be no discrimination between steel furniture and wooden furniture so far as tax is concerned.
    6.0 p.m.
    I say that because steel furniture is coming more and more into domestic use. I have seen it in people's homes—chairs that are as comfortable and safe as wooden ones, steel writing desks which are just as good as any made of wood. The price of the steel article is comparable with the price of the wooden ones, if one excludes the tax differential.
    The firm in my division, which has been making quite a good job of this business, which was started largely as an experiment, is now developing in the Middle East a very useful export trade. We want to encourage exports, and countries such as those in the Middle East are good markets for steel exports of this character. The Government ought to be considering this matter from the export trade point of view. If the tax on both types of furniture were at the same lower level the steel furniture makers would have a better chance of selling more at home, and so could create a home market from which to back their export market, which they could exploit more keenly than they can at present.
    I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not leave the matter as it is, and that
    268
    he will accept the invitation which has been extended to him to say a further word upon it. The Government's attitude to the question of steel furniture is completely illogical. If I am wrong about that I should like the hon. Gentleman to show me now where I am wrong.
    Mr. Powell: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) was quite right in thinking that there is a misprint of "8" for "9" on page 18 of the Financial Statement.
    A good deal has been said about anomalies. Of course, to revert to the position before October, 1955, would call back into existence a host of anomalies which have disappeared. It would be to restore the contrast between bread bins and meat safes, cake tins and cake stands, and so forth. The desire to avoid anomalies and difficulties of definition is the answer to the question which the right hon. Gentleman asked about mirrors, because mirrors are subject to Purchase Tax not only under Group 11, but also as toilet requisites under Group 31—also at 60 per cent. We should find ourselves opening a new line of demarcation there, if we attempted to take out toilet mirrors. The Clause therefore deals with the 30 per cent. articles in Group 11 cleanly without opening up the tax on other articles in the same group. That is why mirrors were left at 60 per cent.
    Mr. Jay: That was the sole reason for the 60 per cent.? It had nothing to do with the merits of mirrors?
    Mr. Powell: That was the reason it was impracticable to deal with that item which at present stands for that reason at 60 per cent. in Group 11.
    Mr. Chapman: In Group 31 mirrors are the only items at 60 per cent. Everything else is at 90 per cent. or 30 per cent. and that makes nonsense of the hon. Gentleman's argument.
    Mr. Powell: Oh, no, it does not, because if the hon. Gentleman endeavoured to take mirrors out of toilet requisites he would find himself in the midst of a new sea of troubles in distinguishing between different kinds of toilet requisites.
    I agree that there are in the scheme real anomalies and difficulties of definition, and I will undertake that the

    269
    anomalies in definitions of furniture will be looked at again with a view to seeing whether some or all of them can be eliminated.
    The right hon. Gentleman asked me whether all goods which had been first subject to tax in 1955—at 30 per cent—have now been reduced to 15 per cent.
    Mr. Jay: At least.
    Mr. Powell: At least. That is correct. None of the goods first subject to tax at 30 per cent. in 1955 now remains at 30 per cent.
    He asked me why wall coverings in Group 10 had been left outside the scope of this. As I pointed out earlier, the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it right to go beyond the scope of the articles first taxed in 1955 and to make reduction; in a wider range of articles of general domestic use, and he had to decide whether it was better for this purpose to extend them, for example, to Group 9 floor coverings or to Group 10 wall coverings. I submit to the Committee that it really must bring much greater relief to those setting up a home to have the tax reduced Ripon floor coverings than to have relief extended to wall coverings.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that possibly the very easily understandable rationalisation of the Government's proposals is that if they put tax on articles of this kind immediately after one Election it is wise to take it off immediately before the next?
    Mr. Osborne: That is what the Labour Party did.
    Mr. Powell: As three times the articles first taxed in 1955 are being relieved of tax by this Clause I fail to see the relevance of what the hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) has just said.
    There is obviously a limit to the amount of purchasing power within the
    scope of this Budget which it would be right to release and the exemption of Group 11, as I have pointed out, would involve release of a further £9 million worth of purchasing power, the greater part or the whole of which would certainly go straight into consumption. So bearing in mind that £24 million from reduction of Purchase Tax has been released and bearing in mind the scope and scale of the Budget reliefs as a whole. I would ask the Committee to agree that the reliefs in these four groups are correctly and wisely selected
    Mr. Mulley: I do not wish to detain the Committee for more than a few moments, because I sense some impatience on both sides of the Committee to come to a decision in the Division Lobby on the Government's policy in this matter. I wish, however, to refer to cutlery, because although we have heard a good deal about the anomalies affecting steel furniture we have not heard so much of how some of these apply to cutlery in Group 13. We are, indeed, grateful that there has been a reduction in tax from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent., but a number of complications arise, of which the Financial Secretary has been informed, so I hope that he will consider that group of articles at the same time as he carries out his review of Group 11.
    I will put one example to him. An ordinary pair of scissors is listed in three separate groups. I am told by people in the trade that even experts take a long time to decide whether a pair of scissors will be used for embroidery, for cutting nails, or for opening things in an office. So I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree to look at the anomalies of the Purchase Tax upon cutlery as well as other Purchase Tax anomalies.
    Question put,That those words be there inserted:—
    The Committee divided:Ayes 212, Noes 248.

    Division No. 119.]

    AYES

    [6.10 p.m.

    Ainsley, J. W.

    Benson, G.

    Boyd, T. C.

    Albu, A, H.

    Beswick, Frank

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Brockway, A. F.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Blackburn, F.

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Blyton, W. R.

    Burke, W. A.

    Baird, J.

    Boardman, H.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Balfour, A.

    Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Beilenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

    Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

    Carmichael, J.

    Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

    Bowles, F. G.

    Champion, A. J.

    Chapman, W. D.

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Randall, H. E.

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Rankin, John

    Clunie, J.

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Redhead, E. C.

    Coldrlck, W.

    Janner, B.

    Reeves, J.

    Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Reid, William

    Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Rhodes, H.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

    Cronin, J. D.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Jones, David (The Hartiepools)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Ross, William

    Davles, Rt. Hon. Clement(Montgomery)

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Shin well, Rt. Hon. E.

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Lawson, G. M.

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Dodds, N. N.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

    Logan, D. G.

    Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

    Dye, S.

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    MacDermot, Niall

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Edelman, M.

    MoGhee, H. G.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    Mcinnes, J.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Steele, T.

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isfes)

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Mahon, Simon

    Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. (Ipswich)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Mainwarlng, W. H.

    Stonehouse, John

    Fernyhough, E.

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

    Stones, W, (Consett)

    Fienburgh, W.

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

    Finch, H. J.

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

    Fletcher, Eric

    Mason, Roy

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Forman, J. C.

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Messer, Sir F.

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    George, Lady Megan Lloyd(Car'then)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Thomas, George (Cardiff)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Gooch, E. G.

    Monslow, W.

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Moody, A. S.

    Thornton, E.

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert(Lewls'm,S.)

    Usborne, H. C.

    Grey, C. F.

    Mort, D. L.

    Viant, S. P.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Moyle, A.

    Wade, D. W.

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Weitzman, D.

    Grimond, J.

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Hale, Leslie

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

    West, D. G.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Hannan, W.

    Orbach, M.

    Wigg, George

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

    Owen, W. J.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Hastings, S.

    Paget, R. T.

    Willey, Frederick

    Hayman, F. H.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Healey, Denis

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Williams, Rev. Liywelyn (Ab'tillery)

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

    Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Hewitson, Capt. M.

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Williams Rt. Hon. T. (Don valley)

    Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

    Parker, J.

    Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

    Holmes, Horace

    Parkin, B. T.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Holt, A. F.

    Paton, John

    Winterbottom, Richard

    Houghton, Douglas

    Pearson, A.

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

    Pentland, N.

    Woof, R. E.

    Howell, Denis (All Saints)

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Yates, V. (Ladywood)

    Hubbard, T. F.

    Prlce, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Probert, A. R.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Hunter, A. E.

    Proctor, W. T.

    Mr. G. H. R. Rogers and

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Mr. Deer.

    NOES

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald

    Carr, Robert

    Aitken, W. T.

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Allan, R. A. (Paddlngton, S.)

    Bidgood, J. C.

    Channon, Sir Henry

    Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

    Biggs-Davison, J. A.

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Black, C. W.

    Cole, Norman

    Armstrong, C. W.

    Body, R. F.

    Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

    Ashton, H.

    Bossom, sir Alfred

    Cooke, Robert C.

    Astor, Hon. J. J.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

    Cooper, A. E.

    Atkins, H. E.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Balniel, Lord

    Braine, B. R.

    Corfield, Capt. F. V.

    Barber, Anthony

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Barlow, Sir John

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Barter, John

    Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Beamish, Maj. Tufton

    Brooman-White, R. C.

    Cunningham, Knox

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

    Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron Walden)

    Dance, J. C. G.

    Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

    Campbell, Sir David

    D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    272

    273

    Deedes, W. F.

    Joseph, Sir Keith

    Pilklngton, Capt. R. A.

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

    Pitman, I. J.

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Keegan, D.

    Pitt, Miss E. M.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Pott, H. P.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Kerr, H. W.

    Powell, J. Enoch

    du Cann, E. D. L.

    Kershaw, J. A.

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Duthie, W. S.

    Kimball, M.

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Kirk, P. M.

    Ralkes, Sir Victor

    Elliott, R. W.(N'castle upon Tyne. N.)

    Lambton, Viscount

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Fell, A.

    Leavey, J. A.

    Rldsdale, J. E.

    Finlay, Graeme

    Leburn, W. G.

    Robertson, Sir David

    Fisher, Nigel

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfiled)

    Robson-Brown, W.

    Foster, John

    Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Freeth, Denzil

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Russell, R. S.

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Longden, Gilbert

    Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

    Gibson-Watt, D.

    Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Glover, D.

    Lucas, Sir Jooelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Sharpies, R. C.

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

    Shepherd, William

    Goodhart, Philip

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Cough, C. F. H.

    Mckibbin, A. J.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Gower, H. R.

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

    Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

    McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Green, A.

    Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster)

    Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold(Bromley)

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Gurden, Harold

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Maddan, Martin

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

    Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Storey, S.

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

    Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Teeling, W.

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Marshall, Douglas

    Temple, John M.

    Harvie-Watt, Sir George

    Mathew, R.

    Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

    Hay, John

    Maude, Angus

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

    Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, S.)

    Henderson, John (Cathcart)

    Mawby, R. L.

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

    Hesketh, R. F.

    Metllicott, Sir Frank

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

    Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

    Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

    Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Tilney, John (Wavertree)

    Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Hope, Lord John

    Nairn, D. L. S.

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Hornby, R. P.

    Neave, Airey

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

    Hornsby-Smitti, Miss M. P.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Horobin, Sir Ian

    Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

    Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

    Wall, Major Patrick

    Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

    Howard, John (Test)

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Webbe, Sir H.

    Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

    Whitelaw, W. S. I

    Hurd, A. R.

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Hyde, Montgomery

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Wills, G. (Bridgwater)

    Hyiton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

    Osborne, C.

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Page, R. G.

    Woollam, John Victor

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Partridge, E.

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Colonel J. H. Harrison and

    Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Mr. Bryan.

    Amendment proposed:In page 6, line 24, leave out from beginning to "were" and insert:
    "the words 'not chargeable under this Group' "—[Mr. H. Wilson.]
    Question put,That the words proposed to be left out, to the word "fifteen", stand part of the Clause.
    The Committee divided:Ayes 249, Noes 212.

    Division No. 120.]

    AYES

    [6.20 p.m

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

    Balniel, Lord

    Aitken, W. T.

    Arbuthnot, John

    Barber, Anthony

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Armstrong, C. W.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Ashton, H.

    Barter, John

    Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

    Astor, Hon. J. J.

    Baxter, Sir Beverley

    Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

    Atkins, H. E.

    Beamish, Maj. Tufton

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

    Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Affan

    Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

    Henderson, John (Catheart)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

    Hesketh, R. F.

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald

    Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

    O'Neill, Hn. Phellm (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Orrmby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

    Bldgood, J. C.

    Hill, John, (S. Norfolk)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Blggs-Davison, J. A.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Osborne, C.

    Black, C. W.

    Hope, Lord John

    Page, R. G.

    Body, R. F.

    Hornby R. P.

    Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

    Bossom, Sir Alfred

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Partridge, E.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

    Horobin, Sir Ian

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florenca

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Branie, B. R.

    Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Bralthwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Pitllngton, Capt. R. A.

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Howard, John (Test)

    Pitman, I. J.

    Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Pitt, Miss E. M.

    Brooman-White, R. C.

    Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

    Pott, H. P.

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Hurd, A. R.

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Butler, Rt. Hn.R.A.(Safrron Walden)

    Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Campbell, Sir David

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Carr, Robert

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Channon, Sir Henry

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Johnson, Erio (Blackley)

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

    Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

    Ridsdale, J. E.

    Cole, Norman

    Joseph, Sir Keith

    Robertson, Sir David

    Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

    Robson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Cooke, Robert C.

    Keegan, D.

    Robson-Brown, W.

    Cooper, A. E.

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Kerr, H. W.

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Corfield, Capt. F. V.

    Kershaw, J. A.

    Russell R. S.

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Kimball, M.

    Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Kirk, P. M.

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Lambton, Viscount

    Sharples, R. C.

    Cunningham, Knox

    Lancaster, Col. C. C.

    Shepherd, William

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Dance, J. C. G.

    Leavey, J. A.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Leburn, W. G.

    Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

    Deedes, W. F.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Drayson, G. B.

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    du Cann, E. D. L.

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, S.)

    Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

    Duthie, W. S.

    Longden, Gilbert

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Eden, j. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.

    Storey, S.

    Eliott, R. W.(N'castle upon Tyne, N.)

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Studhoime, Sir Henry

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

    Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

    Farey-jones, F. W.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Teeling, W.

    Fell, A.

    McKibbin, A. J.

    Temple, John M.

    Finlay, Graeme

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

    Fisher, Nigel

    McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Maclean, Fltzroy (Lancaster)

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R.(Croydon, S.)

    Foster, John

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfleld, W.)

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold(Bromley)

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

    Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

    Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

    Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

    Freeth, Denzil

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Tilney, John (Wavertree)

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Maddan, Martin

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Gibson-Watt, D.

    Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Clover, D.

    Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Vickers Miss Joan

    Goodhart, Philip

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

    Cower, H. R.

    Marshall, Douglas

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

    Mathew, R.

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

    Green, A.

    Maude, Angus

    Wall, Major Patrick

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

    Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

    Grimston. Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Mawby, R. L.

    Watkinson, Rt. Hon Harold

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Medlicott, Sir Frank

    Webbe, Sir H.

    Gurden, Harold

    Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

    Whitelaw, W. S. I

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Wills, C. (Bridgwater)

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Harvey, Air Cdre- A. V. (Macclesfd)

    Nabarrc, G. D. N.

    Woollam, John Victor

    Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

    Nairn, D. L. S.

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Neave, Airey

    Harvie-Watt, Sir George

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Hay, John

    Nicolson, N. (Bn'm'th, E. A Chr'ch)

    Colonel J. H. Harrisod and

    Mr. Bryan.

    276

    277

    NOES

    Alnsley, J. W.

    Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Paton, John

    Albu, A. H.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Pearson, A.

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Hannan, W.

    Pentland, N.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Awbery, S. S.

    Hastings, S.

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Hayman, F. H.

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Baird, J.

    Healey, Denis

    Probert, A. R.

    Balfour, A.

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Hewitson, Capt. M.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

    Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

    Randall, H. E.

    Benson, G

    Holt, A. F.

    Rankin, John

    Beswick, Frank

    Houghton, Douglas

    Redhead, E. C.

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

    Reeves, J.

    Blackburn, F.

    Howell, Denis (All Saints)

    Reid, William

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Hubbard, T. F.

    Rhodes, H.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

    Boardman, H.

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

    Hunter, A. E.

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Bowles, F. G.

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Ross, William

    Boyd, T. C.

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Braddock, Mrs., Elizabeth

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Brockway, A. F.

    Janner, B.

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Jegor, George (Goole)

    Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

    Burke, W. A.

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Snow, J. W.

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Jones, David (The Hartiepools)

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Carmichael, J.

    Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Champion, A. J.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Chapman, W. D.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Steele, T.

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Lawson, G. M.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Clunie, J.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. (Ipswich)

    Coldrick, W.

    Lee, Miss Jeannie (Cannock)

    Stonehouse, John

    Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

    Logan, D. G.

    Stones, W. (Consett)

    Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    MacDermot, Niall

    Stross, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

    Cronin, J. D.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    McInnes, J.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Davies, Rt. Hon. Clement(Montgomery)

    Mahon, Simon

    Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Dodds, N. N.

    Mallalleu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

    Thornton, E.

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John(W. Brmwch)

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Usborne, H. C.

    Dye, S.

    Mason, Roy

    Viant, S. P.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Wade, D. W.

    Edelman, M.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Weitzman, D.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    Messer, Sir F.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Edwards Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    West, D. G.

    Edwards, W. J (Stepney)

    Monslow, W.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Moody, A. S.

    Wigg, George

    Fernyhough, E.

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

    Fienburgh, W.

    Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert(Lewis'm,S.)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Finch, H. J.

    Mort, D. L.

    Willey, Frederick

    Fletcher, Eric

    Moyle, A.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Forman, J. C.

    Mulley, F. W.

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

    George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Car'then)

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

    Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Gooch, E. G.

    Orbach, M.

    Winterbottom, Richard

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Owen, W. J.

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Paget, R. T.

    Woof, R. E.

    Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Yates, V.(Ladywood)

    Grey, C. F.

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Panned, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Grimond, J.

    Parker, J.

    Mr. Holmes and Mr. Deer.

    Hale, Leslie

    Parkin, B. T.

    Amendment Proposed: In Page 6, line 24, leave out "fifteen" and insert "five".—[Mr. H. Wilison.]
    Question put,That "fifteen" stand part of the Clause:—
    The Committee divided:Ayes 246 Noes 213.

    Division No. 121.]

    AYES

    [6.30 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Freeth, Denzil

    McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

    Aitken, W. T.

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster)

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Gibson-Watt, D.

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfleld, W.)

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Glover, D.

    Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold(Bromley)

    Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

    Gonvne-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan

    Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

    Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tlverton)

    Goodhart, Philip

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

    Cough, C. F. H.

    Maddan, Martin

    Arbuthnot, John

    Cower, H. R.

    Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Armstrong, C. W.

    Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

    Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

    Aihton, H.

    Green, A.

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Astor, Hen. J. J.

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Atkins, H. E.

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Marshall, Douglas

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Mathew, R.

    Balniel, Lord

    Gurden, Harold

    Maude, Angus

    Barber, Anthony

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

    Mawby, R. L.

    Barter, John

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Medllcott, Sir Frank

    Baxter, Sir Beverley

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Milllgan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

    Beamish, Maj. Tufton

    Harvey, Air care. A. V. (Macclesfd)

    Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald

    Harvie-Watt, Sir George

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Bevins, j. R. (Toxteth)

    Hay, John

    Nairn, D. L. S.

    Bidgood, J. C.

    Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

    Neave, Airey

    Biggs-Davison, J. A.

    Henderson, John (Cathcart)

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Hesketh, R. F.

    Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

    Black, C. W.

    Hioks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

    Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

    Body, R. F.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Bossom, Sir Alfred

    Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

    Braine, B. R.

    Hope, Lord John

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Bralthwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Hornby, R. P.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Osborne, C.

    Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Horobin, Sir Ian

    Page, R. G.

    Bryan, P.

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

    Panned, N. A. (Klrkdale)

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

    Partridge, E.

    Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron Walden)

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Campbell, Sir David

    Howard, John (Test)

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Carr, Robert

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Channon, Sir Henry

    Hurd, A. R.

    Pitman, I. J.

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

    Pitt, Miss E. M.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Pott, H. P.

    Cole, Norman

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Cooke, Robert G.

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Cooper, A. E.

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Corfieid, Capt. F. V.

    Joseph, Sir Keith

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

    Rldsdale, J. E.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Keegan, D.

    Robertson, Sir David

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Cunningham, Knox

    Kerr, H. W.

    Robson-Brown, W.

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Kershaw, J. A.

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Dance, J. C. G.

    Kimball, M.

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Kirk, P. M.

    Russell, R. S.

    Deedes, W. F.

    Lambton, Viscount

    Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Lancaster, col. C. G.

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Donaldson, cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Sharpies, R. C.

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Leavey, J. A.

    Shepherd, William

    Dray son, G. B.

    Leburn, W. G.

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    du Cann, E. D. L.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Duthie, W. S.

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfleid)

    Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Elliott, R. W.(N'castle upon Tyne.N.)

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Longdon, Gilbert

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Fell, A.

    Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.

    Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Fisher, Nigel

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

    Storey, S.

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Fort, R.

    Mckibbin, A. J.

    Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

    Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Teeling, W.

    Temple, John M.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Webbe, Sir H.

    Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Whitelaw, W. S. I

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, S.)

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Woollam, John Victer

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

    Wall, Major Patrick

    Tilney, John (Wavertree)

    Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Watklnson, Rt. Hon. Harold

    Mr. Wills and Mr. Brooman-White.

    NOES

    Ainsley, J. W.

    Hale, Leslie

    Parkin, B. T.

    Albu, A. H.

    Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Paton, John

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Pearson, A.

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Hannan, W.

    Pentland, N.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Awbery, S. S.

    Hastings, S.

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Hayman, F. H.

    Probert, A. R.

    Baird, J.

    Healey, Denis

    Proctor, W. T.

    Balfour, A.

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

    Hewitson, Capt. M.

    Randall, H. E.

    Benson, G.

    Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

    Rankin, John

    Beswick, Frank

    Holt, A. F.

    Redhead, E. C.

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Reeves, J.

    Blackburn, F.

    Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

    Reid, William

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Howell, Denis (All Saints)

    Rhodes, H.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Hubbard, T. F.

    Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

    Boardman, H.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

    Hunter, A. E.

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Bowles, F. G.

    Hynd, J. B. (Atteroliffe)

    Ross, William

    Boyd, T. C.

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Brock way, A, F.

    Isaaos, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Broughton, Or. A. D. D.

    Janner, B.

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Skefftngton, A. M.

    Burke, W. A.

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Snow, J. W.

    Carmichael, J.

    Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Champion, A. J.

    Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Chapman, W. D.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Steele, T.

    Clunle, J.

    Lawson, G. M.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Coldrick, W.

    Leo, Frederick (Newton)

    Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. (Ipswich)

    Coilick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Stonehouse, John

    Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

    Logan, D. G.

    Stones, W. (Gonsett)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

    Cronin, J. D.

    MacDermot, Niall

    Stross, Dr. Bamett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    McInnes, J.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Davies, Rt. Hon. Clement(Montgomery)

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Mahon, Simon

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Dodds, N. N.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

    Thornton, E.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Dye, S.

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Usborne, H. C.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Mason, Roy

    Viant, S. P.

    Edelman, M.

    Mayhew. C. P.

    Wade, D. W.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    Melllsh, R. J.

    Weitzman, D.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Messer, Sir F.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Mikardo, Ian

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Mltchlson, G. R.

    West, D. G.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Mcnslow, W.

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Moody, A. S.

    Wigg, George

    Fernyhough, E.

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Wlloock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

    Fienburgh, W.

    Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert(Lewls'm.S.)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Flnch, H. J.

    Mort, D. L.

    Willey, Frederick

    Fletcher, Eric

    Moyle, A.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Forman, J. C.

    Mulley, F. W.

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Galtskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

    George, Lady Megan Lloyd(Car'then)

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

    Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Gooch, E. G.

    Orbaoh, M.

    Winterbottom, Richard

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Owen, W. J.

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Paget, R. T.

    Woof, R. E.

    Grenfeli, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Yates, V. (Ladywood)

    Grey, C. F.

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Panned, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Crimond, J.

    Parker, J.

    Mr. Deer and Mr. Holmes.

    Mr. Collins: I beg to move, in page 6, line 40, to leave out paragraph (b).
    The paragraph deals with sewing machines which are not operated by electricity, not the commercial kinds which are already exempted from tax, but either hand or treadle machines used exclusively for domestic purposes. The Economic Secretary will be aware that Clause 6 reduces Purchase Tax on articles in Group 12 (a) from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent. The articles in that group are described in the Customs and Excise Notice as appliances and apparatus of a domestic character. There is no difficulty in saying whether an article in that group is of a domestic character. In our previous discussion the Financial Secretary told us that one of the great difficulties was in saying precisely what was for domestic use.
    Group 12 (a) consists of domestic articles. There is, however, one exception, because the Chancellor has gone out of his way to say that Purchase Tax on sewing machines, which are domestic appliances, shall not be reduced to 15 per cent. with the rest of the group, but, for some extraordinary and inexplicable reason, will be maintained at 30 per cent. The purpose of the Amendment is to delete paragraph (b) to ensure that sewing machines are treated on terms similar to those applying to other domestic appliances in the group.
    We would very much like to see Purchase Tax on sewing machines removed, but the Amendment merely restores the machines to the group and to having a tax of 15 per cent. I hope that the Economic Secretary will accept the Amendment, but, if that is not possible, that he will say why the Chancellor has singled out this item for victimisation. All other domestic articles have had Purchase Tax reduced, but on the humble sewing machine it is to be maintained at 30 per cent. In other words, it is relatively an increased tax.
    It seems that the Chancellor occasionally pursues vendettas against particular objects and the sewing machine seems to be one of them. The Committee will remember that for nearly two years manufacturers have had to contend with all the difficulties arising from the penal 50 per cent. initial deposit on hire purchase of these machines. A very high proportion of sewing machines are sold
    284
    to poor people and, therefore, through hire purchase. Sewing machines were one of the first things to be sold on hire-purchase agreements. Even during the war 10 per cent. of the output was set aside for such sales. The present 50 per cent. initial deposit almost put an end to that type of business and, consequently, in one of the leading manufacturing companies there has been considerable redundancy and unemployment.
    The Chancellor has now gone out of his way to maintain this very high rate of Purchase Tax while reducing everything else in the same class. I put it to the Economic Secretary that the actual impost on these goods when they reach the customer is more than 30 per cent. Other margins are added because the tax is paid by the manufacturer, who has his own costs as a tax gatherer, and also by the retailer. It is, therefore, a considerable addition.
    It cannot be argued that the 30 per cent. tax on sewing machines is being retained because they are being left with the same tax as vacuum cleaners and washing machines, which are electrically operated. We are here talking about hand sewing machines. Electrically operated machines are free of tax. The Economic Secretary will agree that home sewing machines are neither luxuries nor consumer goods. A sewing machine is of a domestic character and is an article capable of use over a lifetime, indeed, in some families extending over more than one lifetime. It is responsible for saving money in the home and labour in the factories.
    6.45 p.m.
    During the war it was featured in the Government's "Make do and mend" campaign. Certainly, working mothers with young children cannot do without their sewing machines. During the last seven years the Singer Company alone has trained nearly 250,000 customer students in the art of home dressmaking. A sewing machine enables economies to be made. It encourages thrift. What possible justification could there be for deliberately maintaining a 30 per cent. tax on this humble, essential, moneysaving machine which is such an encouragement to thrift?
    The high tax will definitely affect exports. The biggest company is, of course,

    285
    in an extremely strong position because it has been exporting about 90 per cent. of its total output, an extraordinarily high percentage which is probably unmatched in any other industry or by any other company. It cannot be argued that the tax will encourage exports. Other companies are not so well placed. About two years ago the second largest company was exporting about 45 per cent. of its output, but the penal hire-purchase deposits, to which I have referred, greatly reduce its export potentiality because, by reducing the company's output, it increased its costs and, therefore, the proportion of exports, affected by cheap German and Japanese machines, dropped to about 20 per cent. of output.
    To meet the competition, the company embarked on an ambitious production programme with the object of reducing costs and prices, but that was defeated by the excessively high initial deposit, and the high rate of tax has so affected sales that the company has had to cut production and discharge highly skilled workers. The people who make and service sewing machines are very highly skilled workers whose replacement is a difficult and long process.
    If the tax is removed or as the Amendment asks, at least reduced to 15 per cent., home demand will be stimulated with a consequent increase in production and reduction of costs, thus making possible increased exports. I hope that the Economic Secretary will answer that case. From every point of view it is a bad, unfair and totally unjustifiable tax. For the sake of the hardworking women who need these machines, for the sake of the continued employment of the workers who make them, and for the sake of the export trade, we ask that the Government will take the sensible and just step of accepting the Amendment.
    Mrs. Alice Cullen: I should like to say a few words on this question of the tax on sewing machines. In my submission, there should be no tax at all, because a sewing machine is essential to the housewife. Much concern has been expressed about women going out to work and leaving young children at home. Some women do not go out to work; they take in sewing work to augment their income and stay at home with their children. The Economic Secretary
    286
    should take that fact into consideration. Housewives need sewing machines. If they have them they can do work and stay at home with their children at the same time. It would be better to have no tax at all on this very essential part of household equipment.
    Mrs. Mann: I find it very difficult to understand why the homely, hand-driven or foot-pedalled sewing machine should be singled out for tax. As my hon. Friend has stated, we are thinking in terms of those women who take in sewing work and stay at home with their children, the mothers who are trying to make ends meet and who decide that they can make up little dresses for their children and even dresses for themselves. The Chancellor might give them some encouragement. because they are helping to prevent inflation by living within their incomes, and, at the same time, they are clothing their children fairly well.
    I was astonished to hear the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) cut her own Front Bench mercilessly when she stated that the right hon. Gentlemen thereon had no consideration whatever for women and the home. Far be it from me to come to the rescue of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I recall a time when he had a great interest in mothers and when, for months, he plodded on making speeches upon the subject of analgesia, thereby showing that he knew something of the trials of the mother-to-be.
    I would direct the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that if there is one time in one's married life when the sewing machine is absolutely essential it is the time when the mother—whether or not she gets analgesia—is looking forward to an exciting event. Very few women go so far as to go out and buy the necessary garments ready made; they like to make them themselves, and the sewing machine is usually bought at that time.
    When the Financial Secretary spoke on a previous Amendment he said that if he gave way it would mean a reduction in revenue of £9 million, which would go straight into consumption. These thrifty housewives who cannot even afford electric machines help to stop inflation and prevent extravagant consumption by doing all these little jobs themselves in their homes. I should have thought that

    287
    a Chancellor who did so much to try to provide analgesia for housewives—so much so that he even went as far north as Coatbridge, where he ascertained the respective numbers of mothers who had gas and air and the number who had not—would have given way, but if he does not, am I to think that all the talking that he did on behalf of the mothers was merely gas and air, and that he did not have any genuine consideration for the struggle of the mothers? Or can it be that since the right hon, Gentleman became Chancellor he has had rather a heavy dose of analgesia himself and just does not know what he is doing?
    At any rate, I join my hon. Friends in asking for the abolition of this tax upon the homely and humble sewing machine that is not run by electricity.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Nigel Birch): The hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. Collins) said that he feared that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a vendetta against those who did their sewing at home. I can assure him that that is not true and that, contrary to what my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) and the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) have said, he and his two assistants are highly domesticated. We see the point very acutely. The hon. Member very rightly asked why it was that sewing machines had been excepted in this special way, and he hazarded a number of guesses upon the subject.
    The reason that all Governments have kept hand- and treadle-operated sewing machines and electrically-operated sewing machines together, taxing them at the same rate, is that it is extremely difficult to distinguish between the two. One can turn a hand-operated sewing machine into an electrically-driven sewing machine by fixing a final drive, which can be produced separately. Therefore, it has been the policy of all Governments to tax hand-operated and electrically-operated sewing machines at the same rate.
    Mr. Collins: I hesitate to put this submission forward, and I do so with the utmost diffidence, but I think that the right hon. Gentleman is in error. Group 12 (a) refers to
    288
    "Appliances and apparatus not designed for operation by electricity or gas …"
    I specifically pointed out that electrically-operated sewing machines, which are usually regarded as industrial machines, are not subject to tax at all. That is my understanding. I checked up on the matter before I spoke and I am certain that I am right. A very serious position is, therefore, created.
    Mr. Birch: I think that the hon. Member is wrong. Obviously, an industrial sewing machine would be tax-free, but not a sewing machine for domestic use. I can assure him that that is taxed at the same rate of the hand-operated machine.
    Mr. Collins: Will the right hon. Gentleman look at page 36 of the Notice issued by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise? Under the heading "Group 12", paragraph (a) specifically refers to
    " Appliances and apparatus not designed for operation by electricity or gas …"
    Can he tell me under which paragraph electric sewing machines are charged at a 30 per cent. tax or any other tax?
    Mr. Birch: I have just checked up on the matter and I am assured that domestic sewing machines are charged at 30 per cent., as are domestic electric sewing machines. I will obtain the reference for the hon. Member in a moment.
    The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mrs. Cullen) and the hon. Member for Coat-bridge and Airdrie were against any tax at all, whereas the Amendment merely seeks to reduce it to 15 per cent. I quite agree with the hon. Ladies. Like all the other items of Purchase Tax, it is something we would rather not have. But these things always have been taxed. I do not wish to make a point of this, but they were taxed at a higher rate under the Socialist Government than under these proposals. I am sorry, but I must resist this Amendment, though it is one with which the whole Committee might reasonably be in sympathy.
    7.0 p.m.
    Mr. Douglas Houghton: As I understand it, these sewing machines were subject to a 25 per cent. Purchase Tax before the then Chancellor introduced his autumn Budget in 1955. Then the tax was increased to 30 per cent Now the Chancellor proposes to leave sewing machines out of the items for

    289
    which he is making a reduction in Group 12 (a). It would appear as though the increase in the Purchase Tax made two years ago is to stay put on sewing machines, whereas it is to be reduced on all the other articles on which there was an increase in 1955.
    A short while ago the Financial Secretary gave an assurance that the tax on all articles which were exempt before the autumn Budget of 1955 and were then made subject to a 30 per cent. tax is to be reduced to 15 per cent, or less, by the provisions of this Clause. That is the history of the matter and so it appears that sewing machines of both kinds may be the subject of a grievance. The tax on them has gone up and not come down. In 1955 the then Chancellor justified the additional Purchase Tax he was imposing on the ground that he wanted to reduce consumption. Already this afternoon there have been arguments about whether the purpose of Purchase Tax is to yield revenue or to restrict consumption. May I quote what the then Chancellor, now the Lord Privy Seal, said during his Budget statement on 26th October, 1955.
    "I am satisfied, however, that some direct restraint on consumption is also required. For this purpose there is one revenue measure which lies ready to hand and is immediate in its effect—an increase in the Purchase Tax. I therefore propose a general increase in the existing rates of Purchase Tax. These are at present 25 per cent."—
    I believe that then sewing machines were taxed at 25 per cent.—
    "50 per cent. and 75 per cent.; and I propose that they should be 30 per cent., 60 per cent. and 90 per cent…."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October, 1955; Vol. 545, c. 221.]
    The Government are now able to relax the restraint imposed on consumption by this method in 1955. They have relaxed it in other directions by halving the Purchase Tax on appliances which have become subject to a 30 per cent. tax. We wish to know why sewing machines, hand and electrically propelled—if the separation presents any difficulty—cannot be included in the items for which a reduction is given on the Purchase Tax which was increased two years ago. We do not seem to have had an answer to that. In any case, Purchase Tax on all sewing machines is a miserable tax. It is penalising thrift and domestic endeavour and all the careful habits of our womenfolk, especially those with children who have
    290
    to sew for their children or otherwise the expense of clothing might prove too high.
    The right hon. Gentleman has heard moving appeals from two of my hon. Friends who speak with first-hand experience. We must ask him to be a little more forthcoming, if there is to be a constructive Committee stage of the Finance Bill, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer hoped that there would be. When are we to make a start? We are told that we cannot have the big things, because they are too big, and now, apparently, we are being told that we cannot have the little things because of those Treasury twins that bedevil the whole incidence of Purchase Tax, reaction and repercussion. We are told that if we exempt this from tax or reduce the tax, we shall be confronted with fresh difficulties, like the difficulty we heard about from the Financial Secretary a little while ago. We are told that if the tax on ordinary mirrors is reduced—mirrors which members of the Government do not like looking into—immediately we shall become ensnared by toilet articles—the mirrors that people do like looking into.
    Here again, apparently, the problem about sewing machines is that if we buy one with a handle, we may get some mechanical device fitted to it, so that it then becomes a problem of tax evasion. I do not suggest that we should have inspectors to look at these sewing machines, but I do not think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer need worry unduly about the fitting by housewives of mechanical devices to their hand-propelled sewing machines. In any event, since both hand-propelled and mechanically-propelled sewing machines appear to be in the same zone of Purchase Tax, why cannot the Government reduce the tax which was increased in 1955 and apply that benefit to sewing machines, and so begin a constructive stage of these Committee discussions?
    Mr. Collins: To save the Economic Secretary the trouble of looking it up, may I say that I have now discovered that domestically operated sewing machines which are electrically driven are subject to a 30 per cent. tax? It is equally true, however, that industrial machines which are electrically driven are not. If the officials of his Department are able to differentiate between

    291
    an industrial and a domestic electrically-driven sewing machine, surely they can differentiate between a hand-propelled or treadle-operated sewing machine and others.
    Mr. Birch: Of course they could, if they saw one. My point was that it is perfectly easy to buy a hand-operated machine and have it turned into an electrically-operated machine.
    Of course this tax is not a nice one. All taxes are a "pain in the neck", and I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), but I thought that for an hon. Member who was, I understand, a very distinguished tax gatherer, he treated the question of repercussion and reaction rather lightly. The hon. Gentleman will realise that in the case of no electrically-operated devices has the tax been reduced this time. The trouble is that when we get into that sphere, which includes refrigerators, electrical washing machines and so on, the money gets very big indeed, and the Chancellor did not feel that he could
    afford a reduction this year. I have given the reasons why the hand-operated sewing machines are classed with the electrically-operated sewing machines. They come into that group, and therefore we are unwilling to risk the repercussion which the hon. Gentleman treated so lightly and at this stage we cannot reduce the tax.
    Mr. Jay: Can the Economic Secretary confirm that this is an exception to the principle which the Financial Secretary laid down, that all those items on which Purchase Tax was raised by the then Chancellor in October, 1955, have been reduced? Is not this a case where the tax went up and remains at a high level?
    Mr. Birch: Yes. The Financial Secretary said that three times as many things as had the tax imposed on them last time had been reduced, but this is certainly an exception.
    Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 239, Noes 201.

    Division No. 122.]

    AYES

    [7.10 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Aitken, W. T.

    Cole, Norman

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Cooke, Robert C.

    Gurden, Harold

    Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

    Cooper, A. E.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Corfield, Capt. F. V.

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)

    Armstrong, C. W.

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Ashton, H.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

    Harvie-Watt, Sir George

    Atkins, H. E.

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Hay, John

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Cunningham, Knox

    Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

    Balniel, Lord

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Henderson, John (Cathcart)

    Barber, Anthony

    Dance, J. C. G.

    Hesketh, R. F.

    Barlow, Sir John

    D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

    Barter, John

    Deedes, W. F.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Baxter, Sir Beverley

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

    Beamish, Maj. Tufton

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

    Drayson, G. B.

    Hope, Lord John

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald

    du Cann, E. D. L.

    Hornby, R. P.

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Duthle, W. S.

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Bidgood, J. C.

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

    Biggs-Davison, J. A.

    Elliott, R. W. (N' castle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Black, C. W.

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Howard, John (Test)

    Body, R. F.

    Fell, A.

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Bossom, Sir Alfred

    Fisher, Nigel

    Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Hurd, A. R.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Fort, R.

    Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

    Braine, B. R.

    Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Freeth, Denzil

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Brooman-White, R. C.

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Bryan, P.

    Gibson-Watt, D.

    Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Glover, D.

    Joseph, Sir Keith

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

    Campbell, Sir David

    Goodhart, Philip

    Keegan, D.

    Carr, Robert

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Gower, H. R.

    Kerr, H. W.

    Channon, Sir Henry

    Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

    Kershaw, J. A.

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Green, A.

    Kimball, M.

    Kirk, P. M.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

    Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Leavey, J. A.

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Leburn, W. G.

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

    Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

    Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Storey, S.

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Osborne, C.

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Longden, Gilbert

    Page, R. G.

    Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

    Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.

    Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

    Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Partridge, E.

    Teeling, W.

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Temple, John M.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

    McKibbin, A. J.

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Thompson. Lt.-Cdr.R.(Croydon, S.)

    McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

    Pitman, I. J.

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Pitt, Miss E. M.

    Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

    Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster)

    Pott, H. P.

    Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

    Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Tilney, John (Wavertree)

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Maddan, Martin

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Maitland, Cdr, J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

    Ramsden, J. E.

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Marshall, Douglas

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

    Mathew, R.

    Ridsdale, J. E.

    Wall, Major Patrick

    Maude, Angus

    Robertson, Sir David

    Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

    Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

    Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

    Mawby, R. L.

    Robson-Brown, W.

    Webbe, Sir H.

    Medlicott, Sir Frank

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Whitelaw, W. S. I.

    Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Russell, R. S.

    Wills, G. (Bridgwater)

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

    Woollam, John Victor

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Sharples, R. C.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Nairn, D. L. S.

    Shepherd, William

    Colonel J. H. Harrison and

    Neave, Airey

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Mr. Finlay.

    NOES

    Ainsley, J. W.

    Dye, S.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Albu, A. H.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Edelman, M.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    Hunter, A. E.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Baird, J.

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Janner, B.

    Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

    Evans, Edward (Lowesoft)

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Benson, G.

    Fernyhough, E.

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Beswick, Frank

    Fienburgh, W.

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Finch, H. J.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Blackburn, F.

    Fletcher, Eric

    Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Forman, J. C.

    Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Boardman, H.

    George, Lady Megan Lfoyd (Car'then)

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Lawson, G. M.

    Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

    Gooch, E. G.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Lewis, Arthur

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Grenfell, R. Hon. D. R.

    Logan, D. G.

    Burke, W. A.

    Grey, C. F.

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    MacDermot, Niall

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Carmichael, J.

    Grimond, J.

    McInnes, J.

    Champion, A. J.

    Hale, Leslie

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Chapman, W. D.

    Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Mahon, Simon

    Clunie, J.

    Hannan, W.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Coldrick, W.

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

    Mallalieu J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

    Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

    Hastings, S.

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Collins, V.J.(Shoreditch & Finsbury)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Healey, Denis

    Mason, Roy

    Cronin, J. D.

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Hewitson, Capt. M.

    Messer, Sir F.

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Davies, Rt.Hon.Clement(Montgomery)

    Holt, A. F.

    Monslow, W.

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Moody, A. S.

    Dodds, N. N.

    Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Howell, Denis (All Saints)

    Morrison,Rt.Hn.Herbert(Lewis'm,S.)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

    Hubbard, T. F.

    Mort, D. L.

    294

    295

    Moyle, A.

    Reld, William

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Rhodes, H.

    Thornton, E.

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Usborne, H, C.

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P, (Darby, S.)

    Roberts Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Viant, S. P.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Wade, D. W.

    Orbach, M.

    Ross, William

    Weitzman, D.

    Owen, W. J.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Wells, Percy (Faversam)

    Paget, R. T.

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    West, D. G.

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Willey, Frederick

    Parker, J.

    Snow, J. W.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Parkin, B. T.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

    Paton, John

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Pearson, A.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

    Pentland, N.

    Steele, T.

    Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Stonehouse, John

    Winterbottom, Richard

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Stones, W. (Consett)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Probert, A. R.

    Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

    Woof, R. E.

    Proctor, W. T.

    Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

    Yates, V. (Ladywood)

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

    Randall, H. E.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Rankin, John

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Redhead, E. C.

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Mr. Holmes and Mr. Deer.

    Reeves, J.

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. Jay: It is perhaps just worth taking a look at where the Clause leads us on Purchase Tax, and indeed, the direction in which this tax is now evolving as a result of the Bill.
    Some hon. Members of the Committee may recall that in the 1948 Budget the Labour Government made—I was going to say "a heroic attempt"—at any rate, a strenuous attempt to simplify Purchase Tax by doing what Chancellors had often been asked to do, to review the whole tax and to reduce the number of rates. It was found possible in that Finance Bill to reduce the number of rates—the present Chancellor may perhaps remember this—to only three. I think that they were 33 per cent., 66⅔ per cent. and 100 per cent. That was something.
    The effect of the Clause in this Bill, so far from simplifying the tax, is that the Chancellor is introducing yet another rate, that of 15 per cent., into the Schedule. He could have chosen to make this reduction from 30 per cent. to either 10 per cent. or 5 per cent. and could have left the other rates where they were. As the result of the decision to introduce the 15 per cent. rate, we now have seven rates—5, 10, 15, 30, 50, 60 and 90 per cent.—compared with three rates before. We did manage to streamline the tax in 1948.
    It is the multiplicity of the rates that gives rise to all the anomalies, the confusions and the complications of the tax.
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    Each time we add an extra rate we must have a subtle definition for every type of article which is either on one storey or on the floor higher. It is consequent upon that that we have this astonishing document, which I hope the Chancellor studies, called "Notice No. 7". It is issued by the Customs and Excise, and is one of the most remarkable documents ever "moulded by the lips of man". I do not blame the Customs and Excise for it, because it is merely trying to carry out what the Government and Parliament lay upon the Department.
    I want to illustrate the point which we have now reached by reading three quotations from this document. The first is fairly well known. It is in page 20 and concerns Group 9 (ii). This reads as follows:
    " Tiles, strips and blocks of a kind suitable for laying on or fixing to floors or sub-floors, not of metal, and of a thickness (excluding any backing) of less than three-eighths of an inch, or, if of cork, of less than five-eighths of an inch."
    The rate for these is 30 per cent.
    Secondly, I turn to the item, "Scissors", which appears in page 41. To save the time of the Chancellor, I shall not read all of it, but the paragraph starts by saying:
    "Scissors exceeding 8 inches in length; nurses' dressing scissors designed for dismantling for sterilisation (e.g. those with Collins' joints) and scissors specially shaped for surgical use in connection with a particular operation;".
    If they are not for a particular operation they fall under a different range.

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    The paragraph goes on to say:
    "scissors exceeding 5 inches in length with pronouncedly curved blades;".
    If they are not of "pronouncedly curved blades" they fall under another rate:
    "… hairdressers' cockade scissors and thinning scissors: pinking scissors; scissors suitable only for docking and pruning; stub scissors with one or more serrated blades; lamp wick trimming scissors; electricians scissors commonly referred to as snips."
    When I read to that point I wondered whether the whole paragraph might have been comprised in the word "snips." I shall read only one other extract from this remarkable document from page 54, Group 20. I wonder whether the Chancellor has ever studied this one? It says:
    "Conger eel hooks with or without swivels. Single spade-ended hooks having a shank diameter exceeding 25/1000ths (·025) of an inch. Single hooks with an eye or ring in line with the shank except eel hooks and hooks for big game fish (tope, tarpon, tunny, shark, etc.)."
    When in our tax administration we get to the point of having to include definitions referring to sharks, it seems to be getting rather extravagant.
    This document might be a remarkable verbal achievement, but I do not think it very good administration of Purchase Tax. In the coming year the Chancellor ought to give his attention to making a further effort, in the interests of the unfortunate Customs and Excise officials, industry and the taxpayer, to bring a little more simplification into this remarkable document. I have heard it suggested that it ought to have illustrations in future, but I think it would be better to avoid that need by carrying out some simplification.
    The other thing which has happened to the tax under the administration of the present Government is that it has been extended to a huge range of objects compared with the period of the Labour Government and, although this is seldom mentioned in this Committee, the total revenue which the Government are collecting is very much higher than it was in 1951. The estimate for the total revenue from Purchase Tax in the last year of the Labour Government was £290 million. Even after these reductions, the Chancellor is now budgeting, if I am correct, to raise £460 million by Purchase Tax in the present financial year.
    The main reason for this is that during the period of the Labour Government a very large range of clothing, boots and
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    shoes and household necessities were completely exempted from the tax through the Utility scheme and by direct exemptions. The succeeding Government of 1952 abolished the Utility scheme and introduced the D scheme—which the Committee will remember—and thereby extended the tax to a very large range of new goods, particularly in the textile field. A few years later the Government changed their mind and swept away the D scheme, replacing it by this tax of 5 per cent. The net effect of all these alterations has been to extend the Purchase Tax over a very much wider area of ordinary common household necessities.
    Mr. Nabarro: Would not the right hon. Member agree that the increase, as he alleges, from £290 million to a yield of £460 million is not only due to the cause he attributes, but also the fact that consumption and demand for all the articles subject to Purchase Tax have greatly increased as a result of rising living standards under a Tory Administration?
    Mr. Jay: It is also due to the rise in prices which has gone on continuously under the present Government. Indeed, it is one of the complaints of the public that when the price of something rises as a result of the general policy of this Government a percentage—not an absolute, but a percentage—increase is added as a result of Purchase Tax. In contradistinction to that, I would remind the Chancellor that in the Budget of 1951 a whole further series of household goods were exempted from the tax, including sewing and darning needles, knitting needles, pins, tape measures, dish washers and things of that kind. It is perfectly possible if we follow that policy steadily to exempt household goods of that kind altogether from the tax.
    Looking to the future, it may be that as a result of the changes the Chancellor is now asking us to approve we should consider for a few moments how most of us would like to see this tax evolve. I cannot agree with those of my hon. Friends or hon. Members opposite who think that we should talk in terms of sweeping the tax away immediately in the next year or two, because I do not think that that is realistic. Nor, I think, is there any unanswerable objection to an indirect tax of some kind falling on the

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    less necessary and more luxury types of ordinary consumable goods.
    I think that we want to do two things. First, we want to simplify the tax and get rid of the fantastic complications which give rise to the sort of document the Customs now has to operate. Secondly, we want to work towards exempting altogether a large range of goods which enter into the cost of living and where I think this tax is one of the causes of inflationary movements and inflationary tendencies in this country. If the Chancellor would follow that policy and set out, as we did in the years before 1951, step by step, year by year, to exempt altogether this type of goods, he would be giving practical help in the campaign to keep down living costs and preserve the value of the £.
    7.30 p.m.
    With these two objectives in mind, I should like to see the tax evolving in that way. First, I should like to see sweeping exemptions, at any rate over a period of time, on the more necessary types of goods, and, secondly, I should like to see a reduction in the number of rates to perhaps two or three, or at least to a much fewer number on different levels or on different storeys than we have at present.
    I believe that if the Chancellor could contrive to sweep a whole lot of these present items out of Purchase Tax altogether and also reduce the number of rates, he would find that he would not lose enormously but would simplify the tax, both from the point of view of administration and of industry, and would, at the same time, raise—although, I agree, not the present level of revenue—quite a useful amount of revenue.
    I think it is true to say, by way of example, that if he were to include motor vehicles, stationery, toilet preparations, radio and T.V. sets he would find, if he looked at the figures—I do not say that these are the right ones to keep in the long term—that these few items would include in the tax a very large amount of revenue, without the necessity of anything approaching the complications and difficulties that we have at present.
    I am making these remarks in the general context of the Chancellor's decision to add yet another rate of 15 per cent. to the Purchase Tax as it stands
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    today. I realise that on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill", we cannot go too far into the possibilities and desirabilities of the tax as it may evolve in future, but I suggest to the Chancellor, in passing, that if he could have some sort of aim such as that in mind rather than this, as it seems to me, completely arbitrary and incoherent chopping and changing from one to another, thereby creating more and more anomalies and more and more complications, and not making any contribution towards keeping the cost of living down, we should at least be making rather more rational use of what has become an extremely burdensome and illogical tax.
    Mr. Nabarro: Indisputably the revenue from Purchase Tax has steadily risen year by year during the period since 1951. I quarrel with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) when he attributes that almost entirely to the extension of the range of goods upon upon which Purchase Tax is levied. I should have thought that the greater proportion of the increase of revenue derived from this tax was due to the greater increase in consumption and the retail sales demand for the articles subject to Purchase Tax.
    I do not believe that any detailed analysis is possible in a matter of this sort. As one example in support of my response to the right hon. Gentleman, which may not be entirely correct but which I believe is more correct than his analysis, I would point to television sets. There are approximately 7 million television sets in the country today as compared with only 1 million in 1951, and the Purchase Tax levied on the additional 6 million sets must have represented a pretty colossal sum.
    Mr. Jay: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that in 1951 something like 80 or 90 per cent. of clothing, boots and shoes and furniture was exempt, whereas the greater part of those goods now bear tax at 5 per cent.? Surely, considering the magnitude of these items, a large part of the revenue must come from that.
    Mr. Nabarro: I do not want to enter into a detailed argument. I respond at once to the right hon. Gentleman by saying that clothing was not entirely exempt from Purchase Tax under his

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    administration. The silk lining, for example, in a gentlemen's suit was subject in those days to Purchase Tax and that formed an element in the cost of a suit of clothes. That is a rather detailed argument and you, Sir Charles, would rule me out of order if I pursued it. I am glad to see that you are nodding assent.
    May I follow directly on what the right hon. Gentleman said in the opening passage of his speech? He wanted to know where this Clause had led us. I must say that I am deeply grateful to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on behalf of my constituency interest, for cutting in half the Purchase Tax on carpets, represented under Group 9, which comprises floor coverings and rugs. That is a modicum of comfort compared with many of the anomalies which are aggravated and accentuated by the reduction in Purchase Tax from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent. on those articles in Group 12 which are shown as
    "Appliances and apparatus …of a kind used for domestic purposes …but …not designed for operation by electricity or gas."
    It is interesting to study in some detail exactly "where this leads us," to use the words of the right hon. Gentleman. For example, the Chancellor has cut in half under that head Purchase Tax on a hand carpet sweeper, which no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will remember was in his boyhood referred to as a Bissell— an antediluvian appliance. The housewife used it to go up and down the carpet, expending a great deal of manual labour to sweep the dust off the carpet. The Chancellor has reduced the tax on that from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent., thereby encouraging the sale of an obsolete and obsolescent type of household article, whereas the Purchase Tax on the modern and progressive labour saving article, namely, the electric carpet sweeper, is 60 per cent. I will not pursue the electric carpet sweeper and the Purchase Tax on it because I should be out of order. I mention it in passing, Sir Charles, to emphasise the fact to the Committee, which is indisputable, that what the Chancellor has done is to place a premium on drudgery in the home.
    May I pass from that to the next group which the Chancellor has cat in Purchase Tax—refrigerator boxes or domestic refrigerators operated by oil. These have
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    been cut under Group 12 from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent., whereas the modern, propressive generally used type of refrigerator which is wanted in our home, namely, the domestic refrigerator operated by gas or electricity, is kept at four times the rate of Purchase Tax which is 60 per cent. That is again a premium on drudgery. Under Group 12 again the Purchase Tax on a toasting fork is 15 per cent. but if one goes to buy an electric toaster which is what we now need in our homes, and what the housewife wants, the rate is 30 per cent. If one goes to the ironmonger's shop—under Group 12—and buys a tin kettle, the Purchase Tax is reduced from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent., but if one wants to buy an electric kettle the Purchase Tax is double—30 per cent. Again there is a premium placed on drudgery in the home.
    In the case of the non-electric iron, the type of iron which was widely used before the First World War—the flat iron used in the home which was the cause of so many accidents and which spoilt the fabrics of so many articles—my right hon. Friend reduces the Purchase Tax under this class to 15 per cent. but for the electric smoothing iron, the appliance which every progressive and modern housewife needs in her home and is anxious to have for labour-saving purposes, my right hon. Friend keeps the Purchase Tax at 30 per cent.
    I have said enough in this context to demonstrate the point I have in mind. [HON. MEMBERS: "Go on".] I do not wish unnecessarily to detain the Committee, but perhaps I may give one more example. You know, Sir Charles, the hard manual labour entailed in using a hand-operated washing machine, a hand wringer or mangle, the machine which one laboriously turns round without any sort of electric power behind the elbow at all. That is an antediluvian appliance. It is the sort of thing which was generally used prior to the First World War. I would have hoped it had long since disappeared from the domestic scene. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I agree that it has not disappeared. I agree that these machines are still being sold, but I do not want them to be sold. I do not believe it is of any value to the housewife that they should be sold.

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    My right hon. Friend has reduced the Purchase Tax on these appliances from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent. What we want in our homes, what your wife wants, Sir Charles, and what my wife wants, although I cannot afford to give it to her is an electric or gas operated washing machine. My right hon. Friend keeps the Purchase Tax on those machines at no less than 60 per cent., or four times the tax on the very laborious hand wringer.
    My right hon. Friend the Economic Secretary, in rejecting an earlier Amendment in connection with sewing machines, let slip the comment that the words are included in Clause 6 (1, a, iii)
    "not designed for operation by electricity or gas"
    because, in his words, a great deal of money would be entailed, were those words deleted.
    I propose to support my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in the Lobby on this Clause tonight. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is no good hon. Members saying "Oh". I cannot do otherwise, when my right hon. Friend is reducing the Purchase Tax on carpets. That is my primary consideration. To me in Kidderminster, carpets are even more important than labour-saving devices for housewives all over the country.
    I therefore support my right hon. Friend in this Clause but, in the words of the right hon. Member for Battersea, North, I want to ask where this labyrinth, this disjointed raising and reduction of Purchase Tax rates, is leading us all. Surely it is leading directly to the type of anomaly which I have been describing in respect of domestic and household appliances, which is injurious to housewives all over the country and which is the opponent of progressive ideas in the home and the opponent of mechanisation in the kitchen and throughout the home of every hon. Member in the Committee, and of course in other homes.
    This is a matter of very great importance. We are spending huge sums of money every year on the provision of electric generating facilities in this country and on new power stations. To derive the maximum value from that huge investment there must be diversification of load and there must be the highest possible load factor. Diversification of load
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    in a power station means the greatest possible number and the greatest possible diversity of electrical appliances in the home in order to spread the load as evenly as possible over the greatest possible part of the twenty-four hours in each day. It also means the raising of the utility and the occupation of these immensely valuable national assets.
    On all those grounds, I appeal to my right hon. Friend between this Committee Stage and the Finance Bill next year to scrutinise the effect of the whole of Purchase Tax upon labour-saving devices and appliances in our homes with a view to easing the housewives' burden and to placing the emphasis once again upon progress, which is traditionally associated with every Measure and every action of a Tory Government.
    7.45 p.m.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: In the course of what is already beginning to appear a rather long life, I have had a great many surprises. In the first place, I can never get over the surprise of finding myself here. One of the greatest surprises that I have had was that of listening to the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) putting, with more ability than I could, precisely the point of view which I wish to put to the Committee.
    I take the view, as I said when speaking on Clause 1, that the time has come when we should consider the principles of taxation and find out what our principles are. There are, in fact, three reasons for the Purchase Tax. Of course there are 10,000 reasons against the Purchase Tax. It is an evil tax, it is a bad tax. I think the Chancellor will agree that it is the sort of tax which every Chancellor would be glad to get rid of if he could.
    The first reason for any tax, presumably, is to raise money. It is rather curious that, in a sense, one of the reasons why a Chancellor taxes the expensive products is that, these expensive products being out of the range of the great mass of electors, he is likely to be less popular than if he taxes something which everyone buys. There are, however, two other reasons which have always to be borne in mind in relation to social taxation. One is that it may be the Government's policy to discourage certain purchases. Indeed, in the early stages of the period of the Labour Government my right hon. Friends puts a swingeing tax on electricity

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    consuming products because there was no electricity.
    In the bad old days, to which I have no desire to make any extended reference now, because it is time to forget them, no provision had been made for sufficient electric power to support the industrial needs of full employment. We therefore had to discourage the purchase of electric appliances because we needed all the electricity we had, at a period when we were having power Cuts during the busy time of the day. The necessary power was not there. Now, thanks to the planning of my right hon. Friends, we do not have to confront that situation.
    Mr. Nabarro: Oh.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: We have seen real progress.
    Mr. Hale: I think that this is a slightly psychopathic exhibition by the hon. Member for Kidderminster. If he wishes, will take him round and show him the power stations which we built. They are there to be seen. They are a prominent feature of the landscape. Provision for electrical power was made. It had to be made at the expense of the housing programme and of every other building programme because of the complete lack of planning in the years which had preceded the Labour Government. I do not want to develop that at great length.
    Certainly any Government—and this should appeal to the hon. Member for Kidderminster, who I hope will now listen for two or three minutes with enthusiastic attention—must realise that one of the social necessities is to discourage the wastage of coal.
    Mr. Nabarro: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Hale: As a matter of social policy, therefore, one wants to encourage the use of electricity or of gas as an alternative to coal. One would have thought that that would have entered into the Chancellor's mind.
    The third reason, of course, of social taxation is to discourage wasteful expenditure and to encourage useful expenditure. In the early days of the Russian Government they had to say, "We will not put up factories for the making of lipsticks until we have factories for constructing the machines which we need."
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    One uses taxation as a method of discouraging wasteful expenditure and useless social expenditure, until one has been able to provide for the necessary planning of one's industry.
    The problem does not confront us to that extent, but it must always be a matter in mind. I suggest that if we look at the events in the last few years a number of important things have happened in this sphere. I think that one of the most important inventions in my time, and one of the most useful, was the invention of the refrigerator. Those who lived in towns and have shops very handy perhaps did not need them quite as much as those who lived in the country and who found it extremely difficult to do their shopping because they had no motor cars available. When they did their shopping they wanted to be able to buy enough food to keep for some time.
    I know that when I lived in a little house in the country the installation of a refrigerator, which was one of the first things I could afford to buy on hire purchase, was one of the things which helped to revolutionise the life of my wife. It saved useless journeys to a distant town and it enabled us to preserve a little food, if we were offering hospitality. It kept the food in a good condition. After all, it has a very reputable history, for it was a famous Lord Chancellor who conducted the first experiment—Francis Bacon, when he collected the snow and caught a cold in the process, a matter which we ought still to regret.
    The curious thing is that we spend days discussing food and drugs Bills, we have a whole staff of civil servants dealing with pure food and drugs, and we lay down provisions that if we cut off a slice of a cow's backside, it must be wrapped in cellophane—presumably, to make it hygienic and useful. In the greenhouse, I now use polythene to grow seeds and I would think that as I can use polythene to grow seeds, cellophane might grow bacteria. That, however, is in the nature of a parenthesis, and I will not pursue that point, Sir Charles.
    When we get that chunk of meat to the house, what happens? The Chancellor says that we can buy a bucket, a pail or a tin saucepan to put it in, but we cannot buy a refrigerator. I think it was

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    Mr. Leo Huberman who dealt with this in a book published by an excellent society which used to be known as the Left Book Club. Actually, there is not much cost in making refrigerators. If they were sold by the million instead of by the ten thousand, the cost could be reduced enormously.
    When the market for an article is kept on a restricted and limited basis, the inventor wants a big royalty, the patentees want big payments, there are exceptionally high overheads, and the result is that the refrigerator, a quite simple machine, is extremely expensive. As the hon. Member for Kidderminster said, the Chancellor is saying, "I am taking out of the scope of this prohibitive tax that form of refrigerator which is fairly useless, but I am having a swingeing tax on anything used in the kitchen to carry out my policy under the Food and Drugs Act."
    That is a fantastic point of view. Any Chancellor of the Exchequer of a decent society would be giving a subsidy on these things. He would say, "For a time, I will give a subsidy. Make them by the million, because it is my policy that every house in the country should have a refrigerator."
    I know that in 1945 my right hon. Friends had to face far different problems to those now facing the Chancellor. When we started to build Socialist houses, we wanted to have central heating in them, but we had scarcely the metal to provide baths. We had to cut out central heating because the metal was not available, the factories were not there, and the possibilities did not exist; but it was certainly always intended that central heating was a necessity in the modern house, and would help to save coal and enforce a sane planning policy on the part of the Government.
    To come to the details of the Clause —[Laughter.] I have been dealing with them on what I thought were statesmanlike lines. The Chancellor says that in order to help people to wash up, he will remove the tax from a few of the little implements for washing up. There are now washing-up machines, and they are of great social importance. I do not know whether the Chancellor is ever called upon to wash up, but I can tell him that it is a rather frightful business and is not popular. Even if one is able to employ
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    a staff in the house, it is not very popular with the staff.
    A Dishmaster today costs £132, of which, I think, £30 is tax. The Dish-master is advertised at £100, but one must pay £30 for a booster to boost up the heat and to acquire the machine for the ordinary house one has to spend £132.
    Mr. Nabarro: I am sure that the hon. Member would like me to underline his argument. The rate of Purchase Tax is 60 per cent. on the wholesale price. Therefore, the tax would be a good deal more than £30.
    Mr. Hale: I am obliged to the hon. Member. I am wondering now whether he will reconsider his decision, although he might approve of the benefit of the Clause to carpets, and say that the Clause is so bad that he cannot support it; but those are the sort of personal difficulties that we all have to confront.
    I am not trying to advertise the Dish-master or any one company. There is the Bendix machine for washing clothes which, I believe, also washes plates. If we had a sane policy, the Chancellor would be saying, "Here is something really worth while. We want to have a happy people, a people with leisure. Let us encourage these things." Instead of that, as the hon. Member for Kidderminster so forcefully said, the Chancellor is saying, "You can buy yourself a wire cleaner to scratch the plates, you can use all the old-fashioned implements that take all these wretched hours of miserable work, but if you want to buy a modern machine I shall not only give no encouragement, but I will put on a tax of 60 per cent. and make it available only to extremely well-to-do people."
    Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Member need not look at me.
    Mr. Hale: At least, the hon. Member is fortunate in the range of his cars. That, however, is not the voice of envy, but of congratulation.
    It is the job of the Chancellor of the Exchequer so to mould his taxation as to give the greatest possible benefit to the greatest number. It is his job to say that the one thing that he will exempt from taxation is the thing that everybody needs. It is not the job of a Chancellor to tax necessities. It is his job to tax luxuries. A Chancellor who wanted to

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    collect the maximum yield would take the tax off whisky and put it on water if he was simply considering yield.
    The whole theme of Chancellors in the past has been to tax what are luxuries and to exempt the necessities. These things of which I have been speaking are becoming necessities. It would be a great social revolution if every house in Oldham had its chance of partaking more and more in the resources that modern science is placing at our disposal. That is why I object to the Clause and to this system of taxation.
    I have been addressing the Chancellor, but I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. R Wilson) has been taking notes, because it may well be that the next Budget will be introduced by him.
    Mr. Nabarro: Certainly not.
    Mr. Hale: The hon. Member for Kidderminster, apparently, has been reading the Tory Press. If he contents himself by looking at the votes in by-elections, he will find that a Government which is so rapidly losing the confidence of the country really cannot go on indefinitely. Therefore, it is tolerably clear that my right hon. Friend will be charged with this important duty at a fairly early date.
    I hope that when my right hon. Friend undertakes that important duty, he will look at these things and say, as I know he will, because he is a sincere Socialist, that the time has come when we will encourage the sale of these things that the people need and use the system of taxation—
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Put it on cars.
    Mr. Hale: —to discourage the sale of things that are unnecessary, wasteful and luxurious. That is the job we ought to be doing, and that is why I hope that the Clause will be opposed.
    8.0 p.m.
    Mr. Ronald Bell: I do not suppose that the Chancellor realised, until he heard the last two speeches, the social havoc he caused by reducing Purchase Tax on household goods by one half. He may have thought that he was going to win widespread gratitude for that simple measure, but he seems to have exposed himself to a good
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    deal of wide-ranging criticism in a fuel and power debate.
    The range of household articles covered by the Clause is basically furniture and kitchen utensils. My right hon. Friend, in his Budget speech, said he proposed to reduce the tax from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent. on such furniture as was liable at the 30 per cent. rate. The history of the levy upon the articles comprised in subsection (1, a) is rather a chequered one. Originally, furniture was basically comprised in Group 6 by the 1948 Act, with a few special articles in Group 9. Among those special articles in Group 9 was garden furniture. In 1948 the basic furniture articles were put into Group 11. Kitchen utensils were added to Group 11 from Group 9, where they had been keeping company with, among other things, garden furniture, and garden furniture was put into a new Group 16.
    We had the rather strange result of this redistribution that pots and pans moved closer to furniture, and garden furniture moved away from it, and the outcome of that shifting around has been that now by this Clause we find my right hon. Friend proposing to reduce from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent., as stated in subsection (1, a ii), tax on:
    "Group 11 (which comprises furniture … used for domestic or office purposes)".
    Because of this redistribution of categories garden furniture is not now included as "furniture used for domestic purposes." Of course, I cannot on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," pursue the regrettable features of that exclusion, and all I can say to my right hon. Friend, without transgressing the rules of order, is that I am sorry to see other kinds of furniture coming down from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent. if garden furniture is to remain at 30 per cent.
    It is rather anomalous that while tax on ordinary furniture, for example in the dining room—dining chairs and so forth— is reduced from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent., that on a folding chair, which may be and probably is classed as garden furniture, and therefore comes under the new arrangement of Group 16, is to remain at 30 per cent. Most people would deem it a cheaper article, and if the guiding principle of the Clause is that articles of domestic use are to be relieved of the heavy duty one would have thought my

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    right hon. Friend would have included it. I think that he probably intended to include it in the Clause when he made his Budget statement.
    When in November, 1948, the rate of Purchase Tax on furniture had to be changed by administrative action the Treasury then made an order which included not only Group 11 but also the new Group 16, garden furniture. Therefore, I hope that my right hon. Friend will think again before the later stages of the Bill. I certainly will not expressly ask him to remove this Clause and put back the other furniture to 30 per cent., but I should like him to consider whether it is logical to put forward the proposals in the Clause if he does not intend to extend a similar relief of burden to that only category of furniture now excluded from the 15 per cent. rate, and still charged at 30 per cent" namely, garden furniture.
    Mr. Donald Wade: This debate has shown once again the complexities of Purchase Tax provisions and the anomalies which seem to grow rather than diminish every time changes are made. That has been so clearly demonstrated in the debate that I do not think it is necessary for me to produce further illustrations either modern or antediluvian.
    I would turn for a few moments to another aspect of this problem, the effect of Purchase ax and changes in Purchase Tax upon industry. Subsection (2) of the Clause provides:
    "This section shall have effect subject to any Treasury order made under the said section twenty-one"—
    that is, of the Finance Act, 1948—
    "after the passing of this Act, and may be amended or repealed by any such order accordingly."
    I do not propose to discuss the general principle of delegating the power to make orders. It is probably inevitable so long as we have Purchase Tax, to give the Government power to amend or repeal from time to time. I would, however, ask the Chancellor whether the Government have any definite policy for the timing of Purchase Tax changes. I am not asking him to anticipate his next Budget speech, but it would be helpful to know what is the policy as to the time when the changes are made.
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    As the Chancellor probably knows, there was a time when it was so customary for Purchase Tax changes to be made at the time of the Budget that there was a period of speculation lasting from about Christmas until the Budget statement, a period when there was so much uncertainty that industry was undoubtedly dislocated.
    Shopkeepers were reluctant to stock up after Christmas. One cannot blame them for that. Shopkeepers suffer quite as much as if not more than their customers from the incidence of Purchase Tax. They are the unpaid tax collectors. They have to put up with a great deal of troublesome work over the calculations of Purchase Tax, and when it is reduced they generally suffer. They are expected by the customers to reduce the prices of their goods at once, but, of course, they have paid the higher rate of Purchase Tax, which they cannot recover. I think that that is a very understandable grouse on the part of shopkeepers, and so far no means has been discovered of dealing with that anomaly.
    It is understandable that if there is a period of uncertainty and speculation about when Purchase Tax changes are to take place shopkeepers should allow their stocks to run down. If it is assumed that these changes will always take place at the time of the Budget, then roughly from January to April retailers will refrain from stocking up, and that in turn has an effect on the manufacturers, and there is a consequent interference with the normal flow of goods from the manufacturers to the retailers. My own view is that when changes are made it is preferable to announce them either in the autumn or in January.
    In saying that I do not wish to suggest that I do not welcome the changes that have been made by the Clause. I wish that, having gone so far, the Chancellor had gone farther still while he was about it, but I welcome such changes as have been made. However, I draw his attention to the effect which these changes have on industry, particularly if they always take place at the time of the Budget. The one certain solution is to abolish Purchase Tax altogether. Whether I shall live to see that happen I do not know, but in the meantime I hope that the Chancellor or

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    his successor will consider the very unfortunate effect which Purchase Tax and changes in Purchase Tax have upon industry as well as upon consumers.
    Dr. Horace King: I think that the Chancellor will appreciate the significance of the fact that so far this has been an all-party debate and yet nobody has been very enthusiastic about the Clause. Indeed, when his hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) was speaking, the right hon. Gentleman must have said to himself, "Heaven preserve me from my candid friends", and he must have realised that if it came to a vote, as it might do, the only people who would go enthusiastically into the Lobby in his support would be the Financial Secretary and the Parliamentary Private Secretaries, and possibly the right hon. Gentleman is doubtful even about them.
    We should ask ourselves what the Clause has to do with the country's main problem today. We are in an inflationary situation. The burning question for everybody is the rise in the cost of living. The Chancellor and the Committee ask whether the Clause helps or hinders in the war against rising costs and, if it does help, whether it helps enough and, at the same time, whether it removes the shock-the anomalies that still remain in the structure of Purchase Tax. I do not feel that I should pursue this last point any further, the anomalies of Purchase Tax and their increase under this Clause having been so effectively stated by the hon. Member for Kidderminster.
    We have a right to ask the Chancellor what is the Tory policy on Purchase Tax, because the Government speak on this with two voices. Probably the classic statement of the Government's view on Purchase Tax, in opposition, was that given by the noble Lord who is now Lord Chandos in 1950, and quoted in Committee on 15th November, 1955. He said:
    "… it falls very hard upon the consumer and leads to a direct increase in the true cost of living … It includes within its grasp many things which only a jaundiced imagination could possibly describe as other than indispensable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1955; Vol. 546, c. 357.]
    I think that the noble Lord was stating the truth and I think that both sides of the Committee are becoming increasingly
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    aware of the burden which Purchase Tax still imposes upon indispensable things.
    On the other hand, I want to call attention to what the then Economic Secretary to the Treasury said, before he left the Government for six weeks only to become, after all that intervened, Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education. When the Government were busy imposing a new Purchase Tax, part of which they are now reducing the hon. Gentleman said:
    "Some people think that increases in indirect taxation must be inflationary, but I honestly disagree with them; and I should like to explain why."
    It was on that occasion that the hon. Gentleman produced what has been referred to as "Boyle's Law," in which he said, among other things, that Purchase Tax would curtail consumer demand and because it curtailed consumer demand it would make merchants who were selling the things much more competitive among themselves, and because they were more competitive, they would not pass the increased Purchase Tax cost to the consumer. Therefore, Purchase Tax, he argued, was deflationary. If hon. Members think that I am unfairly representing the views of the hon. Gentleman they can turn up the debate and see his argument for themselves. He summed up his argument by saying:
    "…we are quite right in using this weapon of Purchase Tax to help to keep us within the inflationary situation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1955; Vol. 546, c. 353–4]
    In a later stage of the same debates, the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) went so far as to say, on 28th November,
    "… every tax which tends to make the price paid for an article in the shops more than its real price must be and always will be inflationary."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 28th November, 1955; Vol. 546, c. 2027.]
    Who is right? Is it the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education or Lord Chandos, reinforced as he was by the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely? If Lord Chandos and the hon. and gallant Member are right, Purchase Tax ought to be removed.
    8.15 p.m.
    Yet instead of removing the tax, the Government imposed more Purchase Tax a year ago, and now the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) takes credit for the fact that the

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    Government have taken off half of what they put on. But if the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education was right, the Government are now doing something which is opposite to the policy they adumbrated a year ago to combat inflation.
    We have a right to ask the Government whether they believe Purchase Tax to be inflationary or not inflationary. How can they reconcile the methods which they adopted a few months ago to combat inflation by imposing Purchase Tax with this reduction for which they claim credit? The Clause makes a welcome modification in Purchase Tax, and for that reason my hon. Friends will be in the same difficult position as the hon. Member for Kidderminster when it comes to voting. The Chancellor might expect us to say
    "For this relief, much thanks."
    Indeed, some Conservative speakers in the country have been boasting about the Clause as one which reduces Purchase Tax, but the fact is that it simply reduces to half the level Purchase Tax newly imposed a year ago, and the Clause makes only a pitiful little group of concessions.
    Purchase Tax may have been necessary in the war years and immediate war years to discourage people from buying things. I was glad to hear earlier in the debate a full-blooded denunciation of Purchase Tax in these days from the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. A. E. Cooper), but if Purchase Tax was necessary then it was always a reactionary and regressive tax. It was always nearly a poll tax. The millionaire and the 10s. widow pay the same tax on an article, but the relative burden of the tax imposed is vastly different.
    I am uneasy at the fact that Purchase Tax still produces so much revenue that Chancellors, whatever they may say when they are members of the Opposition, are very unwilling to throw away this easy way of making money for the Treasury. They are especially unwilling to throw it away if it would mean that they would have to impose further direct burdens on Income Tax payers. That is why I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), in opening the debate, talk of the necessity for sweeping reductions in Purchase Tax.
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    I am glad also that previous speakers have called al tension to the fantastic anomalies in the guide book, Notice No 78, as it is called, which lists goods chargeable with Purchase Tax. For example, the Clause leaves untouched the tax which is imposed on music and on culture by Group 19—the tax on musical instruments. The index to this document is a revelation. It lists, on the one hand, those things which have attracted the mercenary attention of the Chancellor and his predecessors through the years and, on the other, those goods which have escaped from the net or come out of it in a modified way. As a result of this Clause, we shall have to have new index references to flood coverings, rugs. furniture, ironmongery and the rest of the objects in Groups 9, 11, 12 and 13 which benefit under the Clause—with the addition of non-electric sewing machines.
    We shall still levy Purchase Tax, however, on nearly all musical instruments, except those mentioned in the index, that is pianos, organs, spinets, harpsichords, and virginals, all the keyboard instruments, and church bells. Even these were cut out not for any cultural reason. It was no love of the musical backroom boys of the Treasury for the harpsichord or the spinet that led them to redeem these and the virginal. The reason was purely an economic one—the dangerous state of the piano and organ industries. The other quaint and more ancient instruments slipped in while the Treasury was busy excluding the piano accordion from any benefit.
    So the index to the next edition of the Purchase Tax book will lead an antiquarian of the future to imagine that the only musical instruments of 1956 were those I have mentioned, and another small group, this time chargeable, including castanets, chin rests, piano accordions, triangles and tuning forks. The glorious company of strings, woodwind and brass do not get a mention. We tax the violin, the flute, the piccolo and the harp. We did so before this Clause came before us, and we shall do so after the Clause has been added to the Finance Bill.
    Hon. Members will remember that on Second Reading I pleaded for an end of all anti-cultural taxes. The Chancellor has turned a deaf ear to that plea—a tone deaf ear—so the musicians remain as the only professional group taxed on

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    the tools of their trade, healthy little instrument industries continue to bear the economic and crippling burden of a tax which endangers their small export trade, and Britain continues to be the only Philistine country which taxes music. Other countries subsidise the arts; we tax them.
    We are trying in our schools to foster instrumental music, to save young Britain from growing up as listeners rather than performers. But the young Kreisler, learning to play the fiddle in the school orchestra, will put his taxed violin with its taxed strings to his taxed chin rest, and will play on it with a taxed bow, possibly even using taxed resin.
    I am disappointed with this Clause for many reasons. One is that the Chancellor has neglected an opportunity of doing a good service to real music and has left musical instruments still paying the same Purchase Tax as gramophones and wireless sets. I think that this Clause is a pitiful failure. It does not remove the anomalies in the Purchase Tax structure, but even adds new ones. Its contribution to the war against the rise in the cost of living is almost infinitesimal. I believe that the Chancellor has neglected a great opportunity to deal in a radical way with Purchase Tax and so alleviate the anxiety not only of the 2 million or 3 million people at the bottom end of the social scale, to whom the burden of the rise in the cost of living is very serious, but even of the Conservative women who, at their own recent conference, were anxious for their Government to make a legislative contribution towards reducing the cost of living.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Itchen (Dr. King) in thinking that the present state of the law relating to Purchase Tax, even after this Clause, is highly unsatisfactory, and that both as regards the spread and the weight of the burden it is excessive at present. I am not sure that I would go quite as far as my hon. Friend in thinking that one should necessarily sweep away the tax completely. He said that it was almost a poll tax, not a very progressive tax, and to some extent this may be true. But I, under the present Government at least, would be far from confident that any alternative tax brought in to replace the lost revenue would be any less regressive
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    than the Purchase Tax. Indeed, I think there is a good chance that it would be a good deal more regressive, and not less.
    The Chancellor has not had a very warm welcome or a great deal of support for the Clause this evening. He has not had vocal support and, indeed, until recently he has had practically no silent support on his side of the Committee, though attendance has improved in the last quarter of an hour. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman has reason to feel disappointed with the remarks of his hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), because if he reduces the tax on carpets by about half, and cannot get more enthusiasm from his hon. Friend, it is a disappointing outlook for the Chancellor.
    Mr. Nabarro: I congratulated him warmly.
    Mr. Jenkins: Well, the general impact of the hon. Gentleman's speech was not, I thought, warmly congratulatory to the Chancellor, but I may have been mistaken.
    The hon. Gentleman, however, became extremely eloquent about labour-saving devices for the housewife. After listening to him, I thought that it would be still better if he were to employ his great talents of speech in selling labour-saving devices to the housewife rather than in addressing the Chancellor because a Purchase Tax of 60 per cent. on sales reinforced by the hon. Gentleman's eloquence, his speed of delivery and his mastery of the advertising phrase, would be extremely buoyant.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Did my hon. Friend ever know the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) convince anybody?
    Mr. Jenkins: That is perhaps a different point.
    Mr. Osborne: May I point out that my lion. Friend must have convinced the majority of people in Kidderminster more than once?
    Mr. Jenkins: If one were to go on that basis of reasoning, one would have to assume that the hon. Gentleman had convinced the majority of people in Louth, and I would be loath to proceed on that basis.
    Mr. Osborne: I have convinced more people in my constituency for more years than the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) has done.
    Mr. Jenkins: Maybe for more years, but we have to consider the future as well as the past.
    We had an extremely powerful intervention from the hon. Member for Kidderminster, and I thought that he and many other hon. Members who have spoken made strong points in the sense of saying that there is a vast amount of confusion about the tax as it exists. It really is extraordinary that when Government spokesmen have been flying kites for the past two or three years, as has the Lord Privy Seal, if not the present Chancellor, and Government backbenchers have been doing it to an even greater extent—the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) did so this afternoon—in favour of moving directly towards a sales tax, apparently on the ground that it would be a much simpler tax; it is extraordinary, when the Government are talking in these terms, that what they should, in fact, have done is to introduce a situation in which there are seven different rates of Purchase Tax. That, I believe, is a situation which has never prevailed before.
    As my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) suggested, it is the existence of this number of different rates which greatly multiplies and exacerbates the anomalies which, to some extent, are no doubt inseparable from the operation of any Purchase Tax. It would be a great help, therefore, if we could have guidance as to how the Chancellor's mind is moving on this matter. Does he want to move towards a sales tax? The position is extraordinarily confusing at the moment. We understand the general direction in which the Government desire to go, but, while realising that this is their general desire, they have introduced for the first time seven different rates, which might be regarded as moving as far away from a sales tax as possible.
    There would be some advantages in a sales tax on grounds of simplicity. There would also be substantial advantages on grounds of equity. Whatever my hon. Friend the Member for Itchen may think
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    about the regressive nature of Purchase Tax as it operates at present, a sales tax would undoubtedly be a good deal more regressive. I think that my hon. Friends would be most unlikely to welcome a sales tax in any circumstances. At the very least, if a sales tax were even to begin to be a matter for consideration it would need to be very widely extended to include, besides goods, many services which are sold. But even that would, on the whole, be still less desirable than the present Purchase Tax.
    In one of his interventions, the Financial Secretary said that what we were doing in the Clause was really no more than to undo the damage done by the Lord Privy Seal in his 1955 autumn Budget. The hon. Gentleman said that not only were all things which were then charged at 30 per cent. being reduced to 15 per cent. but that many other goods which were not put up to 30 per cent. at that time but had previously been at a higher rate were now being brought down to 15 per cent.
    8.30 p.m.
    As I understood it, the impact of his argument was that we were now in a position in which Purchase Tax generally bore less heavily on the community than it did before the Lord Privy Seal's autumn Budget. I can hardly believe that is so. The Lord Privy Seal's autumn Budget not merely brought under tax for the first time a number of goods previously uncharged and charged them at the rate of 30 per cent, but it increased the rates of tax from 50 per cent. to 60 per cent. and from 75 per cent. to 90 per cent. In particular, the class of goods previously charged at 50 per cent. and charged at 60 per cent. after that Budget is one which produces a very large part of the revenue brought in by Purchase Tax as a whole.
    Therefore, I should have thought there was no doubt—I hope the Chancellor can give us the official information—that, while the Clause somewhat improves the position from what it was immediately before the Budget, it certainly does not make the burden of Purchase Tax less than it was before the introduction of the Lord Privy Seal's autumn Budget.
    I was surprised to hear the hon. Member for Kidderminster, referring to the earlier remarks of my right hon. Friend,

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    announce that overwhelmingly the most important factor in the increase in revenue from Purchase Tax since 1951 was the great increase in the consumption of chargeable goods. I should be extremely surprised if that factor were nearly as important as the general increase in prices which has gone on since 1951 in producing the very substantial increase in revenue to which my right hon. Friend referred. I think the hon. Member was almost certainly mistaken on that point.
    Mr. Nabarro: The fact is that figures are not available to enable one to analyse exactly where the increase in total revenue from Purchase Tax has come from, but what is indisputable—the hon. Gentleman surely cannot deny it at this stage in our debates—is that the items in Group 9, which comprises floor coverings and rugs, were not moved up in the Purchase Tax scale in October. 1955. They had unilaterally been selected by my right hon. Friend for reduction from the 30 per cent. rate to 15 per cent. Under the Labour Government, the charge on them stood at 33⅓ per cent.
    Mr. Jenkins: They are most exceptional in this respect. It was because of that that I thought the hon. Member for Kidderminster was ungrateful to the Chancellor.
    There is a very wide range of commodities which are just as important and just as necessary to the industrial well-being of parts of the country and to the consumption needs of the people generally as the products of the hon. Member's constituency, but he alone has been singled out for preferential treatment, taking the two Budgets as a whole. Yet, although he is in this position, he is hardly able to say a word in favour of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. This behaviour on the part of the hon. Gentleman appears to be rather shocking, at any rate to some of my hon. Friends and myself.
    Mr. Nabarro: Very ungracious.
    Mr. Jenkins: It is extremely ungracious of the hon. Gentleman. I am very glad that he recognises it at this stage.
    This is the part of the Finance Bill which, I imagine, ties up most closely with the speech in the Budget debate of one of the Chancellor's hon. Friends,
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    who described the Budget as a great piece of team work carried through by the Chancellor building on the work of his predecessors. I think that it was the hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Arbuthnot) who was extremely eloquent on the subject and who, in a very moving passage, said that the concessions which the Chancellor had been able to make were the result not only of his own work, although his own work had been very great indeed, but was the result of a piece of teamwork by the Lord Privy Seal, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary—I am not sure whether the Foreign Secretary was mentioned, but certainly a large number of senior and distinguished members of the Government were said to have contributed to this piece of teamwork.
    We can see this teamwork operating, because if it had not been for the very self-sacrificial action of the Lord Privy Seal in introducing that autumn Budget, which led to many personal difficulties for the Lord Privy Seal and much hard work for the Committee and the House, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not now be in a position to announce that in a wide range of goods things would be only half as bad as they were before the Lord Privy Seal left office as Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. Victor Yates: I agree with much that my hon. Friend the Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) said, but I cannot agree with the suggested alternative to Purchase Tax, which is the most vicious tax ever introduced in this country. The debate on the Clause has shown the additional anomalies which will now be created. A glance at the Customs and Excise Notice will show how intricate this business will become.
    I do not know how we shall get rid of the tax. One way would be to get rid of the Government, but I want to be sure that another Government will not do the same sort of things. I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), who will, I hope, one day become Chancellor of the Exchequer, that there is no tax which creates more frustration in industry. Beyond any doubt any chamber of commerce will say that the evil resulting from the tax is very considerable.

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    Naturally, we welcome any reduction in Purchase Tax, but reduction is not enough. I cannot understand the argument of the Financial Secretary, who said that our suggested reductions of Purchase Tax would be inflationary because of additional consumption, but there are some occasions when overall turnover must at least compensate for Purchase Tax reductions. The example of the pottery industry put by my hon. Friends from Stoke-on-Trent is such a case.
    The Financial Secretary said that the 50 per cent. reduction for pottery was unrelated to the unemployment in the industry. However, on examination of the industry and what has been happening in the last few years, I must admit that Purchase Tax has had serious repercussions upon employment. That is bound to be the case with other industries and that is where we get further anomalies.
    Two years ago I raised the question of pottery combined with jewellery. Many firms in Birmingham have been in the habit of purchasing pottery, such as teapots, and enclosing it in silver, but it has become impossible for them to do so because of the high rate of Purchase Tax on silverware, together with the tax on pottery. Many such firms have had to refuse to buy pottery. The Clause will mean that the tax on pottery is reduced, but I very much doubt whether it will be sufficient to enable these firms to continue to do this work.
    The hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) mentioned the question of anomalies. I never thought that I would hear the Financial Secretary say, in effect, that a hall stand was not an item of domestic furniture. In Birmingham, one will be told that a mace is a necessity but a lord mayor's chain is a luxury, because the lord mayor's chain is taxed and the mace is not. There are many examples of such anomalies.
    If we can show the Chancellor that the effect of the tax is to create unemployment in other directions than those which have been mentioned, will he agree to examine the matter very carefully once again? If I give him examples of firms that have been obliged to close in Birmingham in the last year, will he take some action? A number of firms have been obliged to close. A firm about which
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    I was talking two years ago was then making a small profit, but during the last year it has made a loss of £3,000, and that firm was interested in producing goods for export.
    I should have thought that if we had a more intelligent examination of the structure of Purchase Tax we could create a vast increase in production and in our export trade, and so assist all those manufacturers who are concerned in the matter. The present provision helps, but it will create further anomalies, and it is not sufficient. The time has arrived for an all-party consideration of this tax, with the object of abolishing or considerably reducing it, not on a few but on many lines.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft): It may be convenient if I say a few words about the Clause. I would remind the Committee that its object is to reduce taxation. It is as well to recall the Committee to that basic fact of our discussions. I would also say that the task of any Chancellor talking about Purchase Tax is always very difficult. If he says that there is nothing to be done, he is unimaginative and obstructive, and if he hints that something might be done, he does very considerable damage to British industry. On the whole, therefore, the less a Chancellor talks about Purchase Tax the better, and I shall certainly try to follow that course.
    The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) said that the provision was no simplification. He is quite right. But faced with the alternatives of simplification and a reduction of taxation I preferred to reduce taxes. Even if the provision involves a new rate, at the same time it certainly halves the tax. The right hon. Gentleman went on to praise the Utility scheme. I have some recollection of the Utility scheme and the taxation system associated with it. I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that if today we gave the textile industry the choice of going back to the tax position under the Utility scheme, and all the complications associated with it, there is no doubt what the industry would choose. It would choose the existing situation. The textile industry does not want to go back to that position, when all its quality textiles, all the things it hoped to export, were under complicated formulae and high rates of taxation.
    8.45 p.m.
    Mr. Jay: Would the Chancellor agree that the Utility Scheme is not the only way to give tax exemption? He could easily give wholesale or partial exemption in many other ways.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I was saying that it was the most complicated, invidious, frustrating and awkward method that could have been adopted. The right hon. Gentleman praised it and I was pointing out that, if the textile industry was given the chance, it would not go back to that form of taxation.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) will have to rely on the Bissell and flat-iron for a little longer. While he spoke with great fervour of the joys and hopes associated with a completely modernised kitchen and all the modern appliances which can go into the home, the truth is that to remove the tax from that range of items would mean entering into a range of tax relief far wider than anything which can be contemplated within the scope of this Finance Bill. I would mention that electric kettles and electric and gas irons are among those items which did bear tax and the tax is not reduced. An inaccurate answer has been given on that point. The tax on all the other items in that category was reduced, but not those two.
    The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) dealt with the purposes of Purchase Tax. To him, and to other hon. Members who spoke in the same strain, I would say that I do not believe Purchase Tax can be used for planning purposes in the sense which the hon. Gentleman indicated. I do not think that we can go through the whole range of human consumption in this country and tax those things which we think people should not buy and subsidise those things which we think they should purchase. It is better to regard Purchase Tax as a form of indirect taxation and to work by economies towards the reduction of that form of taxation as in the case of any form of taxation, and not try to plan too closely.
    Mr. Beswick: Then can the Chancellor say how he justifies the different rates of taxation?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend has been justifying it logically and saying that he preferred that those things which are regarded as
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    luxuries should be taxed in the higher category. I do not wish to adopt that view of taxation. It is the argument advanced by the Socialist Party when in office and that is why we have these differentiations.
    The hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade) asked about the power to make Purchase Tax changes by Order. I think it a good thing that such power should exist, because it avoids a concentration of thought about Purchase Tax in those three months before the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduces his Budget. If everyone is thinking about Purchase Tax just at that time of the year, as the hon. Gentleman said, there is a very natural tendency for retailers to hold off from purchasing, in case they buy goods which are taxed and then find themselves landed with the responsibility of carrying that amount of tax themselves. For the same reason it would clearly be unwise to forecast or to speculate about what is to be in the Budget or what might happen at any other period of the year by using Orders of that kind.
    The hon. Member for Itchen (Dr. King) asked whether the Clause helped in dealing with rising costs. The answer is, "Yes, it does". To the extent that it knocks 2s. in the £ off the price, it is undoubtedly a help in that direction. Does it help as much as one would wish? Probably most hon. Members would answer "No" to that. They would like it to go further. I do not think that a Chancellor who has been accused of having "an assignment with inflation" in his Budget can also be accused of not going further in remission of Purchase Tax. This is the right and proper course to take, at any rate this year.
    The hon. Gentleman also spoke of Purchase Tax on musical instruments. It is true that for the time being people will have to bear with the fact that most musical instruments are being taxed. The violin will be taxed, and the bow, but the audience now will not be taxed. That is, at any rate, an advance which we have been able to make. I am glad to see my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster back in his place. I have just said that my hon. Friend will have to rely on the Bissell and the flat iron, and must look for better things in the future.
    The hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) asked to

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    what extent the Purchase Tax burden had been eased beyond what was generally called the "pots and pans" taxation in the Autumn Budget. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster pointed out, there has been reduction over a substantially wider field: carpets, linoleums and floor coverings, which, under the hon. Gentleman's Government, were taxed at 33⅓ per cent., and cutlery, which his Government taxed at 33⅓ per cent. All that wide range has come down with others to 15 per cent. That is a proper and useful reduction and it is rightly adjudged so in the compass of this Finance Bill.
    Mr. Harold Wilson (Huyton): The right hon. Gentleman has just said that he was faced with the choice between reduction of taxation and simplification, and preferred to reduce rather than to simplify. That was not the only choice he was facing because he could have both reduced and simplified at the same time. If he had reduced this range of articles to 10 per cent., as we suggested in our Amendment this afternoon, quite apart from the desirability of making them all tax-free, that would have been something of a simplification. It would in any case, have avoided the creation of this new tax rate which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) and other hon. Members have said, now involves no fewer than seven different Purchase Tax rates.
    Another thing that struck us was the Chancellor's reference to the Utility scheme. The right hon. Gentleman said that he remembered it; he ought to, because he killed it. He was responsible for ending the Utility clothing scheme. He said this afternoon that if the textile trade had the choice today it would not want to go back to that scheme. It is not only the textile trade we have to think about; we have to think about the consumers. Most consumers would prefer the Utility system of taxation, whereby Utility goods were tax-free over practically the whole field, and they would certainly be very much happier if they had the quality guarantee that we gave to them under the old Utility scheme.
    I know that the right hon. Gentleman held out high hopes in 1952 that the textile trade would itself introduce a system
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    of quality guarantees as good as those we had under the Utility scheme. The right hon. Gentleman struggled on month after month, year after year—1952, 1953, 1954, 1955—and we did not get any of those guarantees. If I were to pursue this point I should be in danger of getting out of order, so I will deal with the Clause, which has now been debated for quite a considerable time.
    The Clause is another chapter in the history of the many changes of Purchase Tax on this range of goods. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), when he was Chancellor, removed many of these goods from taxation altogether. My right hon. Friend the present Leader of the Opposition, even in the 1951 Budget—a very tough Budget which was associated with the beginning of the rearmament programme—even in that tough Budget, when Income Tax went up, removed many items of household essentials now covered in this Clause from the coverage of Purchase Tax. They were brought back into its scope in the autumn Budget of 1955, to which reference has been made.
    That was a Budget which followed an Election Budget earlier in the year, which gave away £150 million of taxation. It was only after the Election that the present Lord Privy Seal, who had denied that there was an economic crisis, found that it was so serious that he had to introduce another Budget to get the £150 million back. He did not take it from those to whom he had given it in the Election Budget, but took it from different taxpayers, mainly by pots and pans taxation.
    I know that it would be out of order for me to attempt to discuss that Budget in any detail, or even the blow which we can now see to have been probably a fatal blow to the hopes of the Lord Privy Seal in introducing that Budget. I think that most of the difficulties can be traced back to the blunder which he made in introducing that autumn Budget. Much more skilful was his successor, who introduced another autumn budget, although he did not call it a budget when for all practical purposes it was a budget. However, I should be equally out of order in discussing that.
    I think I should be in order to discuss that part of this year's Budget enshrined

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    in Clause 6, which we are now debating. We are very sorry that the Lord Privy Seal has not been here for this debate. I think that he has a very serious grievance against the Chancellor because the Chancellor has really rubbed the salt in with this Clause. He scrapped—or at any rate half scrapped—the policy of the Lord Privy Seal which, as the Committee will remember, we debated day after day, night after night and right through the night—
    Mr. Osborne: Month after month?
    Mr. Wilson: Not month after month, but I can remember that at one stage in the history of our legislation debate on the Finance Bill was killed at eight o'clock in the morning. It would be out of order to discuss that. What I think is significant is that the Chancellor has scrapped, or at any rate half scrapped, the policy of the Lord Privy Seal. I do not complain about that. If he had entirely scrapped it and got rid of the kitchen taxes introduced by the Lord Privy Seal, we should have given him our wholehearted support, because we opposed the Lord Privy Seal. The Chancellor did not oppose him, but voted with him time after time, and was one of the few faithful supporters of the Lord Privy Seal on that occasion.
    Because this has a most important bearing on the economic policy of the Government of which we hear so little, we must ask why the Chancellor has thrown over his right hon. Friend in this way—or half thrown him over. I shall not ask whether he is going to complete the process in an autumn Budget, if he is still there, because the Chancellor has very wisely said that the less a Chancellor says of future intentions about Purchase Tax the better. The right hon. Gentleman should not be confused with his successor at the Board of Trade in that matter. I think it would be useful to know—I hope that the Chancellor will ponder this and perhaps tell us a little about it, as it does not involve any disclosure of future intentions—why he has thrown the Lord Privy Seal over in this way.
    Is it that the right hon. Gentleman disagrees with what the Lord Privy Seal did? Did he then think, or has he come to think, that the Lord Privy Seal was wrong, as Chancellor, in the strategy of his autumn Budget? That is a possible
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    explanation which, no doubt, will have occurred to the Committee. Or does the Chancellor think the Lord Privy Seal was right in what he did that autumn and that now the circumstances which then in the Chancellor's mind justified the Lord Privy Seal in introducing these taxes had eased sufficiently for the Chancellor to be able to say that whatever was needed in the grim days of autumn, 1955, just after that General Election, is no longer required today because things have eased so much, our balance of payments is looking so much rosier, we have had wonderful financial dividends from the Suez operations and the rest, and as a result of all that, whatever the Lord Privy Seal did in that autumn, can now be relaxed?
    That may be a possible explanation. I suggest that one of these possible explanations must be the true one. It would be valuable to the Committee as a whole, and certainly to the country, if we knew which of those two had motivated the Chancellor in what he has done. Perhaps I might remind the Chancellor, because I am sure that he has not given enough study to this point, of what the Lord Privy Seal said in introducing his autumn Budget. I have a feeling that the Chancellor has not really thought about this. If he has, we should like to know what he thinks about it and also what the Lord Privy Seal said to him.
    I am referring to what the Lord Privy Seal said during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill in 1955. I will not weary the Committee by quoting what he said on Second Reading, because it has been quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton). Instead I will take one of the very many speeches which the poor Lord Privy Seal had to make in Committee. He was almost entirely deserted by his hon. Friends; the only Tories present were bitterly criticising him.
    He began to tell us about the developing economic crisis of 1955. By some Freudian lapse he forgot to mention the Election Budget or his Election speeches, but nevertheless he went on to say that this expansion in factory building and all the rest of it had taken place. Then he said:
    " However, it became clear by this Autumn that measures were necessary to deal with this situation, that is, the urge to expansion and an inflationary tendency "—
    9.0 p.m.
    Mr. Osborne: Were not almost identical arguments used in both the crisis of 1947 and the crisis of 1949?
    Mr. Wilson: If I felt that I should not weary the Committee, I should be glad to draw some very useful analogies between 1947 and 1957, but I am afraid that I might weary the Committee, and I should like to keep their attention directed on the very odd difference between the present Chancellor and the Lord Privy Seal.
    The Lord Privy Seal went on to say:
    " What we want to keep, as my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby said, is the right balance between the resources and money available."
    That is an impeccable commentary.
    " If so you do not get rising prices, you get the benefit of prosperity and of full employment in this country."
    Having talked about the boom which had got out of hand—although he did not use that phrase—he went on to say:
    "But what has resulted from our policies … has been this surge of expansion … It would be out of order for me to discuss some of the steps we have taken".
    Equally, it would be out of order for me to comment on them now. He went on to say:
    "It would have been absolutely wrong not to use Purchase Tax as an instrument to deal with home demand at the present time."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th November, 1955; Vol 546. c. 618–20.]
    That is what the Lord Privy Seal said in the autumn of 1955. Does the Chancellor agree with that? If so, does he think the situation has eased so much since the autumn of 1955 that it is now possible for him to relax?
    Mr. Osborne: What did Cripps say in 1949?
    Mr. Wilson: The hon. Member is obsessed by this idea. I hope he will follow me when I sit down and give the Committee the benefit of his views, because we should like to hear them in a considered and orderly manner. I must refer also to the various speeches made about the particular items which enter into Clause 6 made by the then Economic Secretary, now Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education. He had a most sophisticated form of argument. The Lord Privy Seal said, "I must do it because the £ is in danger and if I do
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    not put up the tax on pot scourers, coal sifters and the like, the little gnomes of Zurich will start speculating against the £. Once I do that confidence will be restored and the £ will be saved." That was his argument. Then we heard from the Financial Secretary, now the Minister of Housing and Local Government, who kept telling us that there would be a yawning gap in the system of taxation if the Government did not tax this, that and the other item.
    As I have said, the Economic Secretary was much more sophisticated. I think that it was his enunciation of a new economic principle which caused me to christen it "Boyle's law" about which we have not heard quite so much from the Chancellor recently. I want to quote something that we heard from the Economic Secretary. He said:
    "I want to say some words about the effect of Purchase Tax on demand and the effect of Purchase Tax in combating inflation, because these are points which have been frequently raised …First of all …I do not think that many hon. Members will seriously dispute that there are certain goads in the higher ranges of Purchase Tax where increased tax will result in some falling off of demand"—
    He thought that it might deter the demand a little and that it would expand our exports and hold back our imports. At the same time, he did not dispute that it covered a very wide range of goods, mainly items in the class we are discussing—
    "for which the demand will not be greatly affected either way."
    He did not expect that there would be any reduction in the demand for these household essential goods because people would have to buy them. If one has a baby one has to buy a baby's bath; and, in relation to households, that applies to brooms, brushes and saucepans and all the other things that I have mentioned. What he said—I will not quote all his speech, but the Committee will remember the burden of his argument—was this: that if these people have to buy these essentials and pay a little more for them by reason of an increase in Purchase Tax the result will be the siphoning off of a certain amount of purchasing power which would in itself be disinflationary. We heard that argument at least a hundred times during that time in the Finance Bill debates.

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    We did riot agree with him. We said, "On this argument you should tax bread". It was a dangerous thing to say. The next Chancellor—the one between the Lord Privy Seal and the present Chancellor—took us at our word and removed the bread subsidy. That was, of course, the full implementation of "Boyle's law", namely, that if one taxes an essential or removes the subsidy on an essential that will somehow cream off money from the people who have too much money to spend, namely the working class, which was the basis of his argument. That having been done, they will have less money to spend on things such as shirts and that, in the first place, will reduce our import bill for cotton and, secondly, increase our export of shirts, notwithstanding the fact that we could not export shirts anyway and that our textile exports are lower than at any time since 1840.
    That was the sort of argument which was put up at that time. The Economic Secretary said:
    "I should like to say a word about our balance of payments and to point out to hon. Members that one must not only think in terms of exports when considering that balance. Not only will the curtailment of consumer demand help our exports—and that is obvious—hut it will also mean that our imports bill will not be so great; and let us remember that the imports bill is one of the most important problems facing our economy at present."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November. 1955; Vol. 546, c. 351–2.]
    Are these not still enormous problems facing the economy? I am not saying that the Chancellor was wrong by any means to reduce this tax. I never accepted the argument—none of us did—of the present Lord Privy Seal and the then Economic Secretary.
    We said that if prices were forced up and Purchase Tax increased one of the first results would be more demands for increased wages which would, of course, increase the inflationary pressure. The whole of last year we had this schizophrenic policy of the Government, with half the Ministers saying, "Let us have Boyle's law' and put up prices" in order to siphon off money, and the other half talking about the plateau and the stabilisation of prices, and saying that we must not put up railways rates or the prices of coal, gas and electricity. Then we had the then Chancellor, in alternative speeches, enunciating first the one and
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    then the other. I will not go further into that, although I am tempted to do so.
    One result of this policy of forcing up prices by removing subsidies and increasing Purchase Tax on essential goods was the unanimous decision by the T.U.C. last September to end wage restraint, which was a most serious thing for any Government to have to contemplate. The responsibility, however, lay with successive Chancellors in their cost of living policy.
    I could—but I will not—quote at length the remarks of the then Economic Secretary bearing on this point, but to hon. Members opposite, who have shown such great interest in these debates on Purchase Tax this evening, I commend the speech of the then Economic Secretary on this question on 15th November, 1955. It would be right also to quote what he said in a subsequent debate on 23rd November. The hon. Gentleman was quite consistent—I will say that for him. He said:
    "This Budget is an honest attempt by the Government to deal with the question of inflation, because we want to secure our position in world markets. If we fail to deal with it, then it will be precisely the poorest people who will suffer first. I do not deny that it is not easy to establish a direct connection between the tax on these particular items and our export trade. I do not dispute that at all, but the Amendment which we arc now discussing is related to the general Government policy of retraining demand over the whole field. We believe that restraint of demand is essential if we are to have a secure surplus in our balance of payments."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd November, 1955; Vol. 546, c. 1499]
    That was the then Economic Secretary to the Treasury, who was still in Her Majesty's Government. He was out for a short time later, but he is back again with the full confidence of the Prime Minister. Those were the views that he was expressing at that time.
    Does the Chancellor believe that the Government were then wrong, or does he believe that circumstances have improved so much that those arguments no longer apply? Does he believe, for example, that our balance of payments problem is now, if not solved, so far on the road to solution that he does not need to reinforce our attack on the balance of payments problem by the kind of methods used by the Lord Privy Seal in that autumn Budget? The Chancellor obviously cannot be very happy about our gold and dollar reserves, which fell by one-quarter

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    in 1955, as the Prime Minister reminded us, and then fell by one-third in 1956, as the Chancellor has not reminded us, under his predecessor.
    Obviously, the balance of payments situation is still serious. I think that the Government's borrowing this year has been sufficient to avoid a serious balance of payments crisis this year, but surely the Government will agree—indeed, the Chancellor spoke in these terms in the Budget debat—that the situation is still such that we cannot afford to relax in any measures that are needed to strengthen our balance of payments surplus.
    I think that the Chancellor was right to reduce this Purchase Tax. I wish he had gone further. I think that the Lord Privy Seal was wrong both to increase the rate of Purchase Tax on the lowest group and also wrong to widen the coverage of Purchase Tax by bringing in those items from which Purchase Tax had been taken off by my right hon. Friends in their Budgets between 1947 and 1951. If, however, the Chancellor is—as I say, rightly—reversing the policy of the Lord Privy Seal, I hope that on some subsequent occasion—he could not do it tonight, because it would be out of order—he will tell us what is his policy for countering inflation.
    The day after the Budget, I described it as an assignment with inflation. I still believe that that warning will prove to have been right. Earlier this year, there was a certain element of disinflation in the system due to a whole number of factors—partly the effects of Suez and certainly the effects of the credit squeeze. There were many who said that a measure of reflation was needed in the Budget.
    The Clause is a partially reflationary measure, but just before the Budget, of course, we had the new trend of affairs in the industrial field, with the wages claims. Since the Budget, we have had all the figures showing that investment, which we thought was being rather restricted and reduced, is booming ahead as fast as ever. Of course, the real reason why the Budget is inflationary and why the Clause is relevant to all this is that the more prices rise, the greater the continuance of inflation, the greater will be the right hon. Gentleman's Budget surplus.
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    9.15 p.m.
    I am prepared to accept from the right hon. Gentleman that this Clause is an honest attempt to bring down the cost of living. If so, he ought to have gone a lot further. He ought to have accepted the Amendments moved with so much eloquence today. This half measure, I am afraid, does not make a substantial cut in the cost of living. What is the effect on the cost of living index? One-third or one-quarter of a point at most. At the same time, it gives the whole country the idea, if it did not have it already, that the Government just do not know what they are doing in the matter of their disinflationary policy, for first, we were told that the present Lord Privy Seal's measures were necessary; then they were continued by the present Prime Minister; and now the present Chancellor begins to reverse them, without substituting any new anti-inflationary ones in their place.
    The last thing I want to say upon this matter relates to something touched upon by a number of hon. Members, not least by the Chancellor himself. It has been pointed out that we now have seven rates of Purchase Tax. We seem to be as far from simplification, certainly unification, as we have ever been, if not further. I do not think there is any doubt that the Lord Privy Seal, if he had lasted long enough as Chancellor, would have introduced a sales tax, a single tax covering the whole range of the Purchase Tax, and probably on a much wider basis even than the one which he bequeathed to his successor. I think that he would probably have extended it to consumer services, and possibly to soft drinks and commodities of that kind.
    We warned him against that kind of policy. We warned him against a sales tax; but he did say this:
    "I make bold to suggest that tax critics and tax experts in the future will not be ungrateful to me for the singularly disagreeable task I have undertaken in broadening the scope of this tax."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 28th November, 1955; Vol. 546, c. 2062]
    He went on to hint at further simplification, which the whole country took to mean a unified sales tax.
    I do not know whether the Chancellor is grateful to the Lord Privy Seal or not. I do not know whether he has thrown him over, or what the explanation is, but

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    he has certainly not moved towards a sales tax. He has moved further away from it than any Chancellor who has preceded him. I hope that this means that the Government have now resolutely decided that we shall not have a single sales tax put equally upon the essentials of life such as household articles, on the one hand, and upon purely luxury articles, on the other. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is not even considering it.
    While we all regret that he has complicated his tax schedules so greatly by the system of seven rates of Purchase Tax, nevertheless if this means that he has finally rejected, for as long as he is Chancellor, the dangerous proposal with which the Lord Privy Seal was flirting, we congratulate him once again on that, and we say to him that at the earliest opportunity he must—he can do this by Order—complete the job which he has started with this Clause, and remove from the range of Purchase Tax the household essentials which were the victims of the autumn Budget of 1955.
    Mr. Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) a former Chancellor, the opposition's shadow Chancellor, said that the Chancellor 'was right by this Clause to reduce the Purchase Tax. It took the right hon. Gentleman a long time to say the one thing that really is true of the Clause. For the rest he played very cleverly with what is being done now and with what was done in 1955. He taunted my right hon Friend with the danger to the £. Any taunt of that kind comes ill, I think, from the right hon. Gentleman, because the Government he supported brought us back from our September holidays in 1947 because their policies forced us to devalue the £ from 4·03 to 3·80 dollars.
    Mr. H. Wilson: It was not in 1947, but 1949. I really would not wish to follow the hon. Gentleman into this, quite apart from the fact that if I were to do so I should be grossly out of order. I really do not think that we should do well to bandy words across the Floor about devaluation, particularly when it should be remembered that, but for the emergency borrowings and all the pawnshop activities of the Prime Minister at the beginning of this year, the reserves would
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    have been lower than they were at the time of devaluation in 1949.
    Mr. Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman talked about pawnshop activities, but what about the pawnshop activities of his own party when it borrowed £1,000 million and wasted the whole lot within 12 months and forced us to come cap in hand like a lot of beggars to Westminster?
    The Temporary Chairman (Sir Norman Hulbert): The Clause refers to Purchase Tax and not to borrowing by Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Osborne: I took the words down as the right hon. Member for Huyton used them in the course of a long speech. With respect, you, Sir Norman, never challenged him once, and I am now taking up the point that the right hon. Gentleman was making.
    Mr. Wilson: On a point of order. I do not want to draw attention to the fact that the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne) is clearly challenging your Ruling, Sir Norman, but I really must draw attention to one fact. When I referred to the state of the £ in 1955 I was not talking about devaluation at all. I was quoting a speech of the Lord Privy Seal justifying the Purchase Tax on the items covered in Clause 6. which I humbly submit was in order, whereas the remarks of the hon. Member for Louth were not in order.
    Mr. Osborne: I am quite content to rest on what HANSARD will show tomorrow as what the right hon. Gentleman said, which you, Sir Norman, with great respect, allowed him to say. The right hon. Gentleman criticised the present proposals by contrasting them with proposals in the autumn Budget of 1955. He made great play of that and took an awful long time about it. He used the actual phrase that it was done because he feared that the £ was in danger. I am content to rest on what HANSARD will show the right hon. Gentleman to have said on that point. My only comment, and I think a perfectly legitimate one, was that it came ill from the party which so put the £ in danger that it had to devalue.
    The right hon. Gentleman also criticised the retention of half of the Purchase Tax. because of the so-called

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    "Boyle's law" and the fact that purchasing power had to be mopped up. Once again I should like the right hon. Gentleman to look up speeches made in 1947, 1948, and 1949 by the then Chancellor, who I can remember quite well used the phrase "syphoning off excessive spending power" and talked about mopping up spending power which he did not want in the economy.
    Mr. Chapman Mr. Chapman rose—
    Mr. Osborne: No, I will not give way. Therefore, the very argument that the right hon. Member for Huyton used so cleverly and so long-windedly tonight, accusing my right hon. Friend, was in the very words which his own revered leader had used so many times with his support in the years 1947 to 1951. Furthermore, the right hon. Gentleman said that by claiming this amount of Purchase Tax in the Clause we were being hard on the poorest section of the people, because we were still putting up the cost of bare necessities. He said how unfair and antisocial it was, but may I remind him that Sir Stafford Cripps—
    Mr. Hale: On a point of order. Sir Norman, may I seek your guidance? If I have the good fortune to catch your eye when I rise to address the Committee again, shall I be able to refer to Lord North's proposals to tax the American Colonies as an admirable previous historical contrast to the various Budgets we are now discussing?
    The Temporary Chairman: That matter can best be decided by the then occupant of the Chair.
    Mr. Osborne: I am much obliged, Sir Norman. It is surprising how touchy are hon. Gentlemen opposite.
    In retaining the 15 per cent. tax here we are accused of making it more difficult for the poor to buy the bare necessities of life, and it is suggested that this is wickedly anti-social on the part of the Tories. But what did the Labour Party do when it was in power? Food subsidies were cut from £560 million to £400 million in one year—
    The Temporary Chairman: Order. I must remind the hon. Member that the Clause deals with Purchase Tax and not with food subsidies.
    Mr. Osborne: I was merely referring to them by way of illustration, Sir Norman, as the right hon. Gentleman has been allowed to do so many times. I say, therefore, that his speech was quite off the subject, except for one phrase which was worth listening to, when he said that my right hon. Friend was right to reduce Purchase Tax as he is doing now.
    Now I come directly to the Clause. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. V. Yates) made three points which I would like my right hon. Friend to bear in mind. He said that the chambers of commerce, the shopkeepers and the buyers hate Purchase Tax, partly because of its incidence. I agree that the quicker my right hon. Friend can get rid of some parts of the tax, the better, and the fewer changes there are, the better for traders.
    On the other hand, the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King) made a rather long speech in which he said that he wanted all Purchase Tax abolished. However, the hon. Gentleman did not say what he would put in its place. I put this point to hon. Members on both sides of the Committee. If money is not to be raised in this way, the alternative is greater taxation. I should prefer to tax spending, and in some way force saving, than put on an extra burden of direct taxation, which in many ways is a disincentive to production.
    As has been said so many times during the debate, what is required is something to encourage greater production. It seems to me, therefore, that whichever party is in power, each in turn will have to face the following question. Will they increase Purchase Tax and so raise the necessary revenue for social services, defence and other purposes by that method or will they increase direct taxation?
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: Surtax.
    Mr. Osborne: The hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis) knows nothing about it. There is not sufficient scope for Surtax to raise a tithe of the amount required. What responsible hon. Gentlemen opposite must face—
    Mr. Anthony Kershaw: Which one?
    Mr. Osborne: I can see one—the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton). The question he would have to face if he were in power would be whether he would take the risk of reducing the productivity of the nation by increasing direct taxation or whether he would keep Purchase Tax, which tends to reduce spending power and therefore tends to force saving.
    9.30 p.m.
    Of the two, I think the hon. Gentleman would tend to keep Purchase Tax and obtain greater productivity and, therefore, less spending. To that extent, I think the hon. Member for Itchen was wrong when he said that we should abolish Purchase Tax altogether. In so far as the Clause has reduced what I call the "pots and pans taxation" by half, I am glad of it and will support it, and I hope that next year the Chancellor will remove the other half as well.
    Mr. Chapman: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what his solution is? Half way through his speech he said he would suggest an alternative to Purchase Tax. He then said that the alternative was not accetable to him. Does he end up by accepting Purchase Tax for ever?
    Mr. Osborne: We are discussing the Clause, and I am supporting the reduction of taxation that it brings about.
    Mr. Collins: We have, as usual, been diverted by the speech of the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne). I do not think that the hon. Member always intends to give the Committee as much amusement as he does. The important thing is not that we should be amused, but the effect upon the people outside of what we say and do.
    We have this time, as for many years past, had the usual clever and amusing speeches about Purchase Tax anomalies. They are not difficult to pick out. They occur many times on every page of the booklet dealing with Purchase Tax. Picking them out is an exercise in which we have all taken part. I hope that this will be the last year when we shall take part in such an exercise, for it is about time that this farce was brought to an end.
    I hope that the debate will at least have had the affect of making the Chancellor and the Financial Secretary look into the
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    matter and consider what can be done, because the absurdities which are occurring under Purchase Tax bring the House of Commons into contempt and cause frustration and unnecessary difficulty. They may be amusing, but they mean that manufacturers, workers, and housewives suffer.
    I know that this is an extremely difficult matter. The Financial Secretary said earlier—it is the only semi-concession that we have had all day—that he and his right hon. Friend would look into the question of defining domestic articles. He was taking up a point raised by his hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall), who rightly pointed out the absurdities in respect of furniture. On that occasion and subsequently, the Financial Secretary said that he would look into the matter. I wish him luck. It is very important that he should succeed. A number of industries are interested in his effort. Unfortunately. I think that he will find that the further he ventures into that field the more he will find himself in a new morass of difficulties.
    The booklet states, in page 59, that basketwork articles whose primary function is within the home are chargeable under Group 11, and it gives examples. In other words, being things within the home, these are obviously domestic articles by definition. Yet the articles in that group are specifically charged at 15 per cent., the higher rate of tax. That is an example of the kind of absurdity and anomaly which the Financial Secretary will find when he looks into the matter.
    The more the hon. Gentleman grapples with it, the more he will come to the conclusion that the only thing which will do any good is a surgical operation, to start absolutely anew and, instead of having this facetiousness of the exemption or exception, to tell us bluntly, if the tax must continue, the classes to which it must apply, the actual amount of tax on each class, and that those things which are not specified are free of tax. That would be a supremely useful operation.
    The other thing which is necessary is for the Chancellor to realise the relationship between what he gathers in tax and what the consumer pays as a result of

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    that tax. I hope that the Financial Secretary will not run away with the idea that they are one and the same. I have shown the kind of extra costs to which a manufacturer is put as a result of the tax. There are days when he is visited by a Customs officer, in most cases not because there is anything wrong, but because that is the ritual which has to be carried out, the books have to be carefully examined to see whether there has been a tiny slip.
    That invariably involves the services of one or more senior members of the staff. A tremendous amount of time is lost in that way, partly because of the very system under which it is conducted, the exemption system which gives everybody the maximum amount of trouble. All that is eventually added to the cost of the goods, in addition to the tax.
    A bit more is added when the goods arrive at the retailers, so that there is a great disparity between the amount the Chancellor receives as a result of the tax and the amount which the housewife or consumer pays because of it. That is a very bad principle. If we are to have the tax, it should be arranged so that the Chancellor receives the amount which the consumer, the eventual taxpayer, pays, not something less than that amount. At the moment, the arrangement is grossly inflationary, far more inflationary than the Chancellor or the Committee intends.
    Those are the two principal things which we have to consider. Certainly, it is right to draw attention to the fact that in some cases the tax has been reduced. Certainly, it is right to draw attention to the fact that many things which are taxed should not be taxed and to the fact that there are absurd anomalies. Above all, we are right to draw the Chancellor's attention to the fact that the tax is grossly inefficient and that a different method should be found. In matters affecting industry, we in the House of Commons seem seldom to realise the full extent on the end product of the actions we take. That is a very bad thing, because it is on the result of the actions we take that the prosperity of the lives of the people we represent depends.
    From the viewpoint of its effect on production and living costs, this tax is
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    by far the worse way of raising revenue and I hope that it will be reviewed.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 7.—(EXTENSION TO PURCHASE TAX OF PROVISIONAL COLLECTION OF TAXES ACT, 1913.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. Jay: This is a rather interesting Clause, upon which I think we ought to have some discussion and also an explanation from the Government. The Clause applies the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913, to Purchase Tax. That Act arose out of the prolonged struggles which Mr. David Lloyd George had with the reactionary and obstructionist Tory Party of those days. I understand that it lays down that if, at the end of the Budget debate, the House passes Resolutions altering the level of certain taxes, it shall be legal for the Government to impose those taxes in the interval between the passing of the Budget Resolutions and the granting of the Royal Assent to the Finance Bill—usually about the first week in August.
    I think that many hon. Members are wondering why it is necessary to apply this Act to Purchase Tax at this late date. Has it not been legal up to now for Governments to impose Purchase Tax changes before the granting of the Royal Assent to Finance Bills? If it is legal, why must we have this Clause in 1957? I should have thought that if a respectable married couple, who had been living as man and wife for many years, suddenly announced that they proposed to go through the marriage ceremony, it might spread a certain amount of gossip and rumour in the neighbourhood.
    Is the Financial Secretary telling us that the whole business has been illegal and illegitimate up to now? Was the Lord Privy Seal illegally imposing his increase in Purchase Tax after 26th October, 1955, when the Budget of that year was introduced? Have all Governments since April, 1940, been in this rather curious position? If not, why must we have the Clause?
    I am the more puzzled because it was the late Sir John Simon—a very eminent lawyer—who first introduced Purchase Tax in April, 1940, in a Government of

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    Conservatives and Liberals. No members of the Labour Party helped to introduce Purchase Tax. Presumably Sir John Simon, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, took the view that it was legal and that there was no need to have this Clause relating to the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913, in the Finance Bill which introduced Purchase Tax. Will the Financial Secretary tell us why we have to make an honest man or woman of Purchase Tax at this late stage? Quite apart from anything else, has the whole business been illegal for all the years since 1940?
    Mr. Powell: As the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out, since the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act applies to Income Tax and duties of Customs and Excise it does not apply to Purchase Tax, which is not technically a duty of Customs and Excise. The result is that there is no legal authority for a change in rates of Purchase Tax until a Finance Bill becomes law. That has been the case since 1940 until the present day. It has not had a great practical effect, because Purchase Tax is normally collected quarterly and, therefore, before the additional or the varied sums became due in the ordinary course the authority of the Act upon the Statute Book has normally been available.
    Since that legal authority has been given as from Budget date—or whatever date is in the Bill—by the fact of the Bill reaching the Statute Book, the payments which have been made in advance have, in fact, been legalised by the Bill becoming law. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee will agree, however, that it is undesirable that that procedure should continue, even though it has little practical effect. It might have a practical effect in cases where it is desirable to collect Purchase Tax monthly, and where it might be difficult, therefore, to prosecute in the event of default. So, both for practical reasons of that kind, and because it is undesirable that taxes should be collected at a different level from that provided by law in anticipation of lawful authority, I suggest that the Committee should agree to the addition of this Clause to the Bill.
    9.45 p.m.
    Mr. Eric Fletcher: We have had a most extraordinary statement from the Financial Secretary, and we
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    shall require something far more convincing from the Treasury Bench before we accept the Clause. I had hoped that we might have the assistance of the Attorney-General or the Solicitor-General on this subject. Far from that being the case, the hon. Gentleman has sought to belittle this Clause. He knows that it raises a serious constitutional principle. I was amazed to find that this apparently innocuous Clause was slipped into the Finance Bill without a single word of explanation from the Minister during his Second Reading speech. Had it not been for the probing of my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) we should not have had even the lame explanation which we have heard this evening.
    This matter arose and produced a great Parliamentary and constitutional storm in 1913. The Minister knows perfectly well that the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913, took a long time to pass through this House. The difficulty arose because of the courageous action of Mr. Gibson Bowles in challenging the conduct of the Crown in raising taxes without the authority of Parliament. Acting in succession to John Hampden, Mr. Gibson Bowles challenged the practice which had been going on for a long time. He said that neither a Resolution of the Committee of Ways and Means nor a Resolution of this House gave the Crown any power to raise taxes until Parliament had enacted that taxation, although it had been the practice and usage for seventy or eighty years to collect taxes on the authority of a Resolution without waiting for the action of Parliament.
    When he challenged the legality of the position in the law courts Mr. Gibson Bowles was upheld by Mr. Justice Parker. Therefore, it is no excuse for the Minister to attempt to justify the Clause by saying that the practice has gone on since 1940. That will not do at all. What happened in 1913, which resulted in the Act passed in that year, was that Mr. Justice Parker said that the action which had hitherto taken place was an infringement of the Bill of Rights. He said that the Bill of Rights was still good law and provided that Parliament alone—
    Mr. Ede: Tell the Attorney-General that it is still good law.
    Mr. Fletcher: —must authorise the collection of taxes. I have no doubt

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    that we shall have the Attorney-General present before long.
    Giving judgment, Mr. Justice Parker said:
    "The Bill of Rights remains unrepealed and no practice or custom, however prolonged or however acquiesced in on the part of the subject, can be relied on by the Crown as justifying any infringement of its provisions."
    Mr. Justice Parker pointed out that the Parliamentary practice which enables us to have these debates on the Budget, which has enshrined the freedom of speech which ensures that a Finance Bill is not passed into law until we have had the opportunities that we cherish so much of criticising every sentence in it, is designed for the protection of the subject. It would, therefore, be a very odd thing if it could be relied on as justifying the Crown in levying taxation merely because Resolutions have to be passed as a preliminary to a Finance Bill. That was the situation which produced the stormy scenes in this House in 1913.
    It is true that Parliament passed the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, which enabled the Crown to act on a Resolution of the House, but be it noted that the Act was specifically limited to Income Tax and Customs and Excise duties. A very stormy debate took place on the very question which the Financial Secretary is now asking us to consider, whether the Act of 1913 should or should not be extended to other taxes. The position today, as it has been since 1913, is that the Act is deliberately limited to Income Tax and to Customs and Excise duties. It does not apply, for example, to Surtax. It never has done. It does not apply to Profits Tax. It never has done. It does not apply to taxes like the Entertainments Duty or to Purchase Tax, and there is very good reason why it should not.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: What was the position before 1913? What was the position in 1909, when there was a year without a Finance Bill?
    Mr. Fletcher: If my hon. Friend will read in HANSARD, Vol. II, the debate which took place in 1913, he will see that before 1913 the irregular practice had grown up whereby the Crown, without challenge, collected taxes on the authority of a Resolution. His Majesty's judges
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    held that that was quite wrong and was contrary to the Bill of Rights.
    The question to which we have to address our minds today is the very one which exercised this House in 1913, namely, whether the Act permitting the Crown to act on the authority of a Resolution should be extended from the Income Tax and Customs and Excise duties to other taxes or whether it should not. Parliament, in 1913, after protracted debates, and for very good reasons which were valid then and are equally valid today, decided quite deliberately that that permission should be confined to the Income Tax and Customs and Excise duties, and should not be extended to any other taxes. What the Financial Secretary is inviting us to do, almost by a side wind, by a very subtle introduction, sub silentio—
    Mr. Ede: Sub rosa.
    Mr. Fletcher: —is to reverse the historical decision taken in 1913. The reasons which prompted that decision in 1913 are precisely the same today as they were then.
    The result of Mr. Gibson Bowles' action was that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Lloyd George, first introduced certain Resolutions on 7th April, 1913, intending them to be the basis for the provisional collection of taxes. At the outset, Mr. Lloyd George intended that the Act which he was inviting Parliament to pass should apply to all taxes: new taxes, revisions of taxation, repeals, variations of existing taxes, renewals, and so forth. He had not got very far in his argument on that subject when he found that there was a great deal of opposition from his own supporters, from Members with such famous names as Mr. Hayes Fisher, Mr. Cassel, and others. They pointed out that what might be justified in the case of Income Tax and Customs duties ought not to be applied to new taxes. Otherwise the Crown would be able to introduce all kinds of new taxes and to give effect to them without Parliament having an opportunity of debating them. That was contrary to everything laid down since the Bill of Rights.
    It is rather curious that although Mr. Lloyd George, the Liberal Chancellor of the Exchequer of those days, found

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    vehement protests about his actions by his Liberal supporters, Mr. Austen Chamberlain, as he then was, speaking for the Conservative Party, thought that it might not be at all a bad idea that the Resolutions should apply to new taxes. Mr. Austen Chamberlain told Mr. Lloyd George that he hoped that Mr. Lloyd George would not accept the Amendments of his Liberal supporters, but would permit the legislation then proposed to apply to new taxes. Then the debate continued, and hon. Members who are interested in the historic debates of that year will find that important contributions were made by Sir Rufus Isaacs, Sir John Simon, Sir Alfred Cripps, Lord Hugh Cecil, Mr. Healy, Mr. Joynson-Hicks and others.
    Eventually, after all the arguments had been weighed, Mr. Lloyd George, with his usual discretion and instinctive sense of the feelings of Parliament, gave way to the wishes of the House, and he said that he recognised that there was a difference between new taxes and variations of old ones. He said:
    "I say there is a substantial difference… There is a great difference between imposing a new duty on a subject not considered dutiable in the past, and imposing a duty on something which has been, for fifty or a hundred years, recognised as fair matter for taxation.….—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th April. 1913; Vol II, c. 1258.]
    Therefore, the Act of 1913 was virtually confined to Income Tax and matters of Customs, and Section 3 of the Act specified that it should only apply in those cases. It is for that reason that until today no Minister on the Treasury Bench has dared to suggest to Parliament that it should be extended to any other taxes.
    I think, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) pointed out—and I think the Minister agreed with him—that never since Purchase Tax was first thought of until this day has anybody thought it right that the Act of 1913 should apply to it. This is not a case of trying to legalise something that has been accepted in the past. That is not the case at all; it never has been the law.
    The Act of 1913 has never applied retrospectively to Purchase Tax. We shall have something to say about the retrospective operation of some sections of the Finance Bill later, and different considerations might well apply, but in this particu-
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    lar matter I am quite sure that I am speaking for a number of my hon. Friends who have followed this question when I say that it would be a departure from all constitutional precedent for that very unusual Act of 1913 to be invoked in this case.
    One of the eminent spokesmen described the Act as one of the most revolutionary Measures he had ever heard of. That may have been an exaggeration, but it indicates the importance which was attached to it in those days. The Minister said that it had no practical consequence. He did not give a very coherent, and certainly no convincing, explanation why it is introduced now although it never has been introduced before. As my right hon. Friend said, if it has not been necessary in the past, why is it necessary now?
    Mr. Powell: The 1913 Act was considered necessary to legalise a position which had gone on for much longer than twenty years.
    Mr. Fletcher: It obviously was necessary because of the judgment of Mr. Justice Parker in the Gibson Bowles case, but there is no reason for extending it further. No practical difficulty should arise. Rates of Purchase Tax should not be increased without the authority of Parliament. It is a little significant that the Minister seeks to introduce this Clause in this particular year when, of course, it can have no adverse operation on the taxpayer because Purchase Tax is being reduced. Therefore, I thought, as my right hon. Friend said, that it would be quite wrong for us to pass over this Clause without indicating the very considerable and very important questions of constitutional history and Privilege which lay behind it.
    10.0 p.m.
    Mr. Hale: I do not think that the House of Commons has for a very long time been presented with such a situation as that presented tonight. We have had, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) has said—and we are all grateful to him and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) for raising what is obviously a constitutional point of considerable importance—a Clause presented to the House without any explanation. It my right hon. Friend had not risen to his feet half an hour ago it might have passed

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    on the nod. It is a proposal to vary the provisions of a most important constitutional document of British history and a proposal to vary it substantially as an adjunct to the ordinary Finance Bill of the year.
    This proposal is now presented to the Committee in the absence of the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General. Both Law Officers of the Crown are absent and no explanation has been given to the Committee of their absence. No one has even thought fit to apologise in any way for their absence and, apparently, the Financial Secretary had no intention of making any explanation to the Committee at all until he was challenged and it was virtually demanded by my hon. Friend.
    What is the explanation? It is that Her Majesty's advisers have been collecting money by false pretences from the public for about seventeen years. Her Majesty's varied advisers have been imposing illegal taxes and validating them retrospectively. We have collected taxes from the community which we had no right or power to impose for periods in respect of which there was no legislative sanction for them.
    Having discovered this, the hon. Member said, "We did not think to make a statement to the House and say that we have been advised that we have been doing something illegal for seventeen years." Far from that, no information was given, and an attempt was made to slip it through on the sly, rather in the manner of the gentleman on the train doing the three card trick and slipping in the knave after the cards have been laid before the victim.
    Mr. John Mackie: The queen.
    Mr. Hale: I agree. It is "Find the lady." This is a department in which I do not claim to have the knowledge of hon. Members opposite and I would welcome their experience.
    Mr. Ede: It is the dealer who is the knave in those cases.
    Mr. Hale: Indeed, as my right hon. Friend says, there is a knave and there is a gentleman who thinks himself a joker and who ceases to joke shortly afterwards. If I went into the whole details
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    of this I might venture on the fringes of order, and I would not wish to do that.
    So far as I know, the only explanation is that made by the Financial Secretary, in the absence of the Chancellor. This Government have never received any vote of confidence from the community. They were foisted on the country by the noble Marquess who has publicly acknowledged his mistake. It is perfectly clear now that he would pick the Lord Privy Seal if he had the chance. This Government ask the Committee, as an act of kindness and courtesy, to say, "Look here, boys, we realise that you are in a jam and we are anxious to support you and get you out of the difficulty."
    The difficulty about the proposition is this: it is not a new problem. It was not a new problem in 1913, for it had been fairly well known since about 1842. The House began to collect Income Tax in 1842 by means of a Resolution. The point was taken and was raised, and in those days we had exactly what happens today; the Minister gets up and says, "We consulted the relevant authorities and we have taken the best advice we can." What is "the best advice we can," we have never been discourteous enough to particularise. In any event, we are assured, "This is all right."
    This went on for some years until the Government got cold feet again, in 1876. in which year they passed the Customs Consolidation Act, which was intended at least to give some legislative sanction for the post-validation of Customs collection. My hon. Friend, who is an expert in this matter, modestly inquired, no doubt not seeking information but anxious to bring to light an important point—and it was an important point—what was the situation in 1909. The situation in 1909 was just what the Financial Secretary has now disclosed; Ministers have been obtaining money from the public by fraud for years.
    It may well be that the fact that there was no Budget in 1909 meant that this was the first year in which Ministers had a clear conscience and were not liable for impeachment.
    Mr. Ede: There was no Finance Act in 1909 because another place, anxious to commit suicide, threw Mr. Lloyd George's Budget out.
    Mr. Hale: Yes, indeed. I personally think that that anxiety to commit suicide ought to have been encouraged. I do not want to develop that, although I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reminder.
    This has been going on, with Ministers knowingly and criminally obtaining taxes without legislative sanction over a period of 115 years. From time to time their attention has been called to it. could well understand it if Ministers said, "In 1940 we were rather preoccupied with other matters; we regret this position and we have tried to put it right as soon as we can". But to come here in 1957 on the matter is a public scandal.
    Some hon. Members may say that Labour Ministers did it as well, but it is fair to remember in mitigation that at least we were principally engaged in decreasing Purchase Tax, not increasing it, as Tory Ministers have been engaged in increasing it. In any event, it is never much use for people in the dock to say that other people ought to be in the dock with them or, if hon. Members like, that others are in the dock with them. Ministers having wantonly accepted the government of the country without a vote of confidence and having assumed the government of the country, they can hardly pass the blame for their present acts on to their predecessors.
    The Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913, was a Measure of very considerable complexity and difficulty. It is quite a short Measure, but it provided a wholly new system and a whole series of safeguards, in view of the criticism of the original Financial Resolution. The procedure in 1913 was, perhaps, a little different from ours.
    Mr. Kershaw: On a point of order. Did you, a second ago, Mr. Hynd, hear Big Ben striking ten o'clock? Would you please say what the time is?
    The Temporary Chairman (Mr. H. Hynd): I understand that our clock is right and that Big Ben is wrong.
    Mr. Hale: I can well understand the preoccupation of Big Ben, who has presided over these deliberations—or misdemeanours—all through these eighty years. If, in these circumstances, Big Ben has been preoccupied for a matter of ten minutes from performing its normal
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    duties, I am bound to say that I am not astonished and that I have more sympathy with the clock than with the Minister.
    The Act of 1913 was an extremely delicate and difficult Act. Everyone realised that there was a problem—a problem which had been made more manifest through the case of Gibson Bowles v. the Bank of England, when it was decided, and decided in a way which the Government of the day and their advisers hardly thought fit to challenge by appeal to a higher court, that one may not pass a Resolution of the House of Commons for the collection of money and act upon that Resolution and collect money until one had full Parliamentary sanction.
    We then had the elaborate provisions which have worked fairly well and which provide that the Resolution of the Committee of Ways and Means on the introduction of the Budget shall have effect, subject to a whole series of safeguards. One is the confirmation within four days and another the second step within ten days, and, finally, there is the passing of the whole Measure in the early part of the grouse and salmon season. That is why we have to discuss these matters late at night to get them to another place in time for the Bill to come back and receive its final sanction before the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act have taken effect.
    In relation to such matters as Income Tax, it may be that the situation has worked well and nobody would wish to disturb it. As the then Mr. Lloyd George pointed out in the course of his speech. Income Tax used to be collected on a triennial basis, being assessed on a three-year basis. Even in 1913 there was the option of being assessed on the average of three years, so that the necessity of immediate collection was not quite as urgent as it is now.
    Then, however, we come to the practical difficulty. What the Minister is saying is that he or his predecessors have committed an accidental fraud upon the community; that unknowingly—ignorance of the law is no excuse, but it can be to some extent a mitigation—he has imposed taxes without legal sanction. Now, in the course of Clause 7, he is saying that he wishes to commit what is obviously a deliberate fraud upon the community, because he is asking that

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    these provisions shall apply to Purchase Tax.
    The provision of the 1913 Act is that if the Government fail in their financial measures, if they do not obtain Parliamentary support and legislative sanction, if the Finance Bill is not passed or, indeed, if the particular proposal contained in any one Clause to which the Act relates is rejected, if the variation of tax is not approved or the new tax is not imposed, then the onus is upon the Government to repay the money.
    How can Purchase Tax be repaid? Will the Economic Secretary apply his mind to this? I have a great respect for his ability and his integrity, although he has had to plead guilty to some offences today. If I buy a pair of shoes on 1st May or, perhaps, on 10th April, the day after the Purchase Tax on shoes has been increased, who will be able to say who I am or where I bought the shoes or what record will there be of the transaction on 31st August. How many retailers have a list of their cash customers?
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson (Farnham): I must remind the hon. Member that the purchaser of a pair of shoes does not pay the Purchase Tax. It is the manufacturer who pays it.
    Mr. Hale: He passes it on.
    Mr. Nicholson: That is a different thing.
    Mr. Hale: Let us examine the financial implications of this. I might go into a shop and ask for a pair of shoes. I do not know whether my figures are accurate. I do not recall the precise amount of tax. I cannot even be sure that the Purchase Tax is on shoes, but I think it is. Suppose that I go into a shop and buy goods which are subject to Purchase Tax. I might go in and buy what we were talking about just now—a Dishmaster—and I pay £132 for it. The Dishmaster people tell me that they could sell it to me for about £85 but for the wretched Chancellor, who has smacked about £45 tax on it. Who pays that?
    Mr. Nicholson: The hon. Member does not pay the tax.
    Mr. Hale: Of course I do. I pay £45 to the manufacturer, who pays it to the Government. Suppose that the Govern-
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    ment are defeated—heaven knows, they are in a shaky condition. There are three by-elections to be decided within a few days and anything might happen. It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to smile, but they have short memories. It was only a few months since they were declaring that Sir Anthony Eden would be Prime Minister for many years to come.
    Governments have a somewhat uncertain tenure of office. Even this Government have already suffered one loss and have had the cessation of the support of some of their most intelligent stalwarts. I would have thought that men of great ability and certainly men of great integrity, men who know rather more about other things than about politics, have seceded from the Government.
    10.15 p.m.
    It really is nonsense to say that this cannot happen. Even those who are reluctantly following the Government at the moment are having a very uneasy time. We have seen wrestling with conscience going on almost in public and rather painfully during the last few months. The hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) laughs, but Northern Ireland is, perhaps, not so active politically as some parts of England. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Well, I do not want to deny that there is political activity in Northern Ireland. Let me say at once that there may be in some senses more political activity in Northern Ireland than in England, but I would say that, perhaps, the reaction of the liberal-minded in Northern Ireland is not as apparent to the same extent as, perhaps, it is in some of our English constituencies. However, I may be wrong. I sometimes am.
    What happens? I am waiting for the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) to interrupt again, because he was the one who suggested that if we do not validiate the tax the Government send £45 back to the manufacturer. What does the manufacturer do with it? He puts it in his pocket. He has defrauded me of £45. It is out of my pocket; it has gone to the Government; it has gone back to the manufacturer: it never comes back to me. It is, of course, possible and even probable that the seller of the Dishmaster would know my name,

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    but the many sellers of the many other and various articles on which Purchase Tax is levied would not know my name if I were to buy any of them.
    The whole proposal is frankly and obviously impossible, and, being impossible, it is dishonest. So we are in the situation that one of Her Majesty's advisers, and a respected adviser, makes this proposal. I say "respected adviser," for I certainly do not make any attack upon his very high character. It is one of the unfortunate consequences of being a member of a Tory Government that he gets placed in these fantastic dilemmas, through the operation of Toryism.
    He comes along and says, "I have sinned. Will you say to me, 'Go thou, and sin no more'?" We say, "But your very proposal is rather a worse sin. It is impossible to give you Parliamentary absolution while you are contemplating even worse crimes in the immediate future." [Laughter.] But surely. I know that at this hour of the night, a quarter past ten by the clock in the Chamber, five minutes past ten by Big Ben, we sometimes tend to become a little less serious than we otherwise are, but the average person in Oldham or Bourne-mouth or wherever it may be wants to know, if he has paid what proves to be an illegal tax, what provision there is for repayment. What are the proposals of the Government to repay it? If the Government are not prepared to say that, it is impossible for any rational Committee to permit this proposal to go through.
    I just do not see how it can be done. Under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913, there are at least three provisions— I think there are four, but there are certainly three—under which a Resolution of the Committee of Ways and Means, provisionally validated on Budget day, becomes inoperative and the money becomes repayable. It becomes inoperative if the Budget is not approved by the House within four days. It becomes inoperative if the Second Reading of the Bill does not take place within ten days. It becomes inoperative if the Third Reading does not take place—well, originally the date was fixed at 31st August, but I am not sure whether that date still stands.
    In any event, the threat the Fairy Queen made to the Peers on behalf of Strephon
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    has rarely been implemented. [Interruption.] My right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) does not seem to recall the reference. It is:
    "You shall sit if he sees reason
    Through the grouse and salmon season.
    Peers shall teem in Christendom,
    And a duke's exalted station
    Be attainable by competitive examination."
    In view of recent events perhaps there ought to be some special provision for marquesses, and the Government have contemplated introducing a political test for marquesses, but no other proposals for reform of the Lords, or substantially altering the dates of sittings of the House, have been forthcoming.
    So I ask the Financial Secretary or the Economic Secretary if I may use a mild vulgarism, to "come clean" and to let us know the magnitude of the errors which have been committed in the past.
    Let us know the extent to which they have obtained money by false pretences from the community. Let us know, therefore, the extent of the defalcations which we are being asked to validate, and let the Minister tell us in detail what his proposals are for the repayment of a tax if the Budget is defeated. On this, I know that I can make an appeal for the first time in my life for co-operation through the usual channels, because it will be remembered that if the Government are defeated the repayment must be made by the Government who succeed them, and the responsibility quite possibly will fall upon my hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), or any other of my right hon. Friends, to try to put right the mischief that will be caused if we unheedingly pass this Clause tonight.
    Mr. Ede: I regret that the Financial Secretary did not rise after the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham. West (Mr. Hale), because this is a matter that cannot be allowed to rest with the explanation that has already been given.
    Mr. Powell: I thought I saw the right hon. Gentleman rise.
    Mr. Ede: I was waiting, and on these occasions one knows that if one waits too long the Chairman rises and puts the Question and then one is hindered by one's own modesty.

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    Who discovered this? Was it discovered in the Treasury? Was is discovered by the Law Officers? [HON. MEMBERS: "Where are they?"] One never knows. Flashes of genius come in the most unexpected places. Was it, and I am rather inclined to take that view myself, that a Parliamentary draftsman discovered it? I understand that it is a very technical point as to why Purchase Tax is not a tax under Customs and Excise, but apparently the Government have been advised now that it is not, and, therefore, the Provisional Collection of Taxes, 1913, does not apply to it. I hope that we can be told who discovered it, because I think that this person is worthy of recognition. As I wander about the place I see statues erected to people who by no means have reached this high level of Parliamentary rectitude.
    It is a pity that, as we were to discuss what is purely a legal matter, none of the Law Officers has been present this evening to help us. I see that the Lord Advocate is within sight and is even within the Committee, though he is not in a position from which he can help us by an oral approach to the subject. This thing has apparently blown up quite unexpectedly to the Financial Secretary. He could hardly have expected to hear completely extempore the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East, who had apparently spotted the difficulty better than any other hon. Member and had prepared a completely convincing analysis of the situation to submit to us.
    No matter what the Financial Secretary says tonight, I should like to be advised by the Law Officers of the Crown before I assented to any proposition that can now be put forward. I hope that the Financial Secretary will tell us as much as he can about the various points that have been raised. I think it would be as well if I suggested to my hon. Friends that when we get to the Report stage, unless we receive a convincing explanation this evening, an Amendment should be put on the Notice Paper to omit the Clause from the Bill, if only to receive an explanation from authoritative quarters of the exact reasons why this has happened. I particularly hope that the Financial Secretary will draw the attention of the Attorney-General to the quotation made in the judgment which
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    dealt with the Bill of Rights and its application to this matter, for I think that on this point the Attorney-General himself is in need of some enlightenment and advice.
    It is a pity that we have not had a better explanation tonight. I can only hope that before the Bill leaves this House we shall have a convincing explanation of why the Clause is necessary, and who was the genius who discovered that the Clause ought to be in the Bill.
    Mr. Powell: I am sorry that it would be wrong for me to respond to the last invitation of the right hon. Gentleman, for he is aware, much more than I am, of the anonymity which very properly veils the persons of those who advise the Government on these matters, and who discover the necessity or desirability of provisions of this kind. I can, therefore, only properly say 'I am advised' that this provision is desirable for the reasons which I gave earlier, and which I will elaborate in a moment.
    Mr. Ede: I was hoping that the hon. Gentleman would say that he was the person who discovered it.
    Mr. Powell: May I deal now with the question of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) about repayment? Purchase tax is collected from the wholesaler, and it is to the wholesaler that it would fall to be repaid in the circumstances set out in the 1913 Act. As regards further persons who, directly or indirectly, in the course of trade and business may have borne the burden of the imposition, their position will be no different here from what it is in regard to duties of Customs and Excise at present under the 1913 Act.
    Mr. Hale: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for interrupting, this was raised in the debate of 1913. It is true that if a man has drunk a glass of whisky and has paid tax and the tax comes off subsequently, it is difficult to repay it, especially if he drinks it on 10th April and then the tax is defeated. That point was well understood—there is a point of impossibility. But it is nonsense to say that it is impossible to keep a list of people who pay Purchase Tax in these circumstances. Unless some provisions are introduced for them, it means that

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    in some cases very large sums are mulcted from the purchaser.
    Now let me consider the position of the wholesaler. It means, virtually speaking, that the wholesaler can be sued by anybody who cares to assert that they bought something off him for cash and have paid duty on it. He may he in the position of receiving a hundred county court summonses because, unless some provisions as to records are proposed, there is no way of checking liability to payment.
    Mr. Powell: The point is that the wholesaler is accountable for this duty, and the position of subsequent purchasers and dealers in the item is no different from that in the case of duties of Customs and Excise as provided for at present under the 1913 Act.
    Despite the speeches which have been made, I do not think there is any difference of opinion in the Committee as to the desirability of this provision. We are all agreed that when changes in Purchase Tax are made they must take effect from the date of the announcement. Accordingly, we write into the Clause, as we have done into the Clause which the Committee have just added to the Bill, the day after Budget day as the commencing date.
    As Purchase Tax is not at present covered by the 1913 Act—and I do not think that we can lay too much constitutional stress upon the fact that our forefathers, in 1913, did not include it among the taxes covered by that Act—there is no legal authority for the collection of the newly varied amounts of Purchase Tax until Royal Assent. That means that a person accountable for Purchase Tax could, in the meantime, decline to pay the varied amounts, but that they could be recovered from him by virtue of the Act of Parliament after it reached the Statute Book.
    10.30 p.m.
    As I explained earlier, this difficulty is not really serious, not only because of the common sense which is brought to bear on the matter from both sides, but also because, normally, Purchase Tax is accounted for only quarterly and the Act has generally reached the Statute Book by the time the first payments of the varied amounts fall to be made.
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    Nevertheless, the feeling in the Committee clearly is that it would be wrong for payments to be made, even intentionally and knowingly on both sides, without legal authority if we can give the appropriate legal authority by bringing this tax within the scope of the 1913 Act. That is, in fact, the very simple purpose of the Clause.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: What the Financial Secretary has done in his second speech is to make a fairly substantial case for saying that while we have Purchase Tax we require a provision of this sort. What he has not done is to explain why it was not introduced when Sir John Simon first introduced Purchase Tax, or to say, that being so, why this year should have been selected to introduce the Clause.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) made a typically lucid speech, marred only by a very few historical inaccuracies, such as the belief that Mr. Hayes Fisher was a Liberal, whereas he was a Conservative Member of Parliament, and one or two other points, not perhaps of major importance in determining our attitude to Clause 7 but none the less of some minor importance.
    My hon. Friend brought out clearly the very much greater attention paid in the House in 1913 to constitutional issues of this sort than is done today. Hon. Members have tonight asked where the Law Officers of the Crown are. However, I am not sure how much the Law Officers would help us if they were here.
    Mr. Kershaw: If this is indeed such a very knotty point of law, I observe that there is only one right hon. and learned Gentleman on the other side of the Committee. Would it not be desirable that the right hon. and learned Member for St. Helens (Sir H. Shawcross), assuming that the hon. Member for Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) knows where he is. should assist in this discussion?
    Mr. Jenkins: I have never understood that, even under the regime of the present Attorney-General, it was the duty of the Opposition Front Bench to explain Government legislation to the House of Commons. If that is the view which the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw wishes to put forward. I think it would be one which we would certainly consider, though it would be a novel one.

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    I was saying that my hon. Friend brought out how much greater attention was paid to these matters in those days. I would not put much stress on the absence of the Law Officers, but I think one should put a certain amount of stress on the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Revenue from Purchase Tax must be ten or twenty times the combined revenue from Income Tax and Customs and Excise Duties in 1913, but in 1913 there was no question of the Financial Secretary of the day being in charge of the debate in the absence of the Chancellor. My hon. Friend quoted frequently from the speech of the Chancellor of 1913, who was there throughout the debate and intervened frequently.
    Mr. Nicholson: There was a good Opposition in those days.
    Mr. Jenkins: The intervention, while I would not accept it as it stands, underlines a point that I was about to make. The period around 1913 was not a quiet Parliamentary one when it might have been argued that the House had nothing to think about except the particular Bill before it. It was a period of Welsh disestablishment, Irish Home Rule and other major issues, and there were major clashes in the House.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: And suffragettes.
    Mr. Jenkins: And suffragettes, as my right hon. Friend says. There were many other issues claiming the attention of the House and the nation and the most prominent members of the Government, but that did not prevent the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day from being on the Front Bench throughout the debate, moving a Motion, and replying to the debate. It is clear from the interventions reported in HANSARD, which my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East, has shown to me, that the Chancellor was there to take part at any moment if necessary.
    Yet here, when we are considering an extension of the 1913 provision, an extension which, measured arithmetically in money terms, is far more important than the 1913 provision itself, we have no sign at all of the Chancellor. We do not even have the active intervention of the Econo-
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    mic Secretary. I should have thought that, the Financial Secretary having proved somewhat inadequate and having got into some difficulty in his first intervention, the Economic Secretary would have wished to speak when a second Government intervention was called for. I am sorry that he did not feel able or find it necessary to do that.
    What I think we still have completely unanswered is the question why this Clause is put forward now. In 1913 we had Mr. Justice Parker's remarks in the Gibson Bowles case which clearly provoked the Government into doing some thing. We also had the position in which, only four years previously, the House and the nation had had to be without a Finance Bill for twelve months because of the action of the House of Lords.
    I do not know whether the Government are taking the position of Lord Salisbury so seriously that they are expecting some action of the House of Lords against this Finance Bill. If that were so, it would, of course, be a possible explanation of the Clause, and it would bring it to some extent on all-fours with the 1913 provision: but if that is not so we are bound to feel that even after the two rather arid interventions of the Financial Secretary we are still in the position of not knowing what is really behind the Government's mind in this matter and of feeling, too, that a very important provision has been put before the Committee in a rather frivolous way without the presence of either of the Law Officers or of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That is something which the Committee should deplore.
    Mr. Jay: While we are waiting for the Attorney-General, can the Financial Secretary explain this? He has twice rested his argument on the fact that the Government are in the habit of collecting Purchase Tax quarterly. Therefore, he says, by the time that the money is, in fact, collected a Bill has always received the Royal Assent and everything is in order.
    Normally, the Budget Resolutions are passed in the first week of April and the Finance Bill receives the Royal Assent in the first week of August. From the first week of April to the first week of August is four months, not three. If the Treasury always collects Purchase Tax quarterly, how can it avoid collecting it at least once

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    during a period of four months? If it has done that, how is it that it has not been acting illegally in the past?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I think that my right hon. Friend is slightly in error when he copies the Financial Secretary in saying that this money is collected quarterly. It is collected by the wholesaler from the retailer as the goods are sent and bills are paid. What the Financial Secretary meant was that it is paid to the Exchequer quarterly—not collected.
    Mr. Rankin: There is one point about the Clause which intrigues me. My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) asked how it would be operated. I recollect that last Tuesday, when we were discussing Entertainments Duty. I moved three Amendments which provided for a rebate scheme to help small cinema proprietors. That rebate scheme suggested that £22 10s. should he rebated to small cinema proprietors whose drawings did not exceed £125 a week. The Government said that such a scheme could not be worked. However desirable it was, it was not a scheme that could be accepted, for the simple reason that there was no way of tracing the persons who paid the tax.
    It was argued that to pay the £22 10s. to the proprietor was wrong and that it was something which the Government had no right to do. It was refunding money to a person who had not paid it and until a scheme could be devised whereby the tax paid on entering the cinema could be refunded to the person who had paid it, the Government could have nothing to do with the Amendments. So they were all rejected.
    The small cinema proprietor is in a position similar to that of the wholesaler. He collects a certain amount of money which he forwards to the Government. We are now being told that it is possible to return that money which the wholesaler has collected to the person who, in the first case, paid the tax on the goods which were subject to Purchase Tax. That is the essence of the scheme before us. How will it work? If the money collected by the small cinema proprietor in Entertainments Duty cannot be passed to the person who paid it originally, how will the wholesaler be able to pay back the money paid in Purchase Tax by the person who bought the goods in the retail shop?
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    If that can be done, why did the Government, last Tuesday, reject Amendments of similar quality on the ground that the scheme could not be worked? How can the one be worked and not the other? If the Government were right last Tuesday, obviously, by the arguments which they put for rejecting my Amendments, they stand condemned tonight on the issue now before us.
    Mr. F. H. Hayman: The hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) said that the Opposition, in 1913, were much more vigorous in their ability adequately to tackle the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day, but I suggest that Government back benchers today are so docile that even on an important issue of taxation they remain silent. We do not know whether they have been ordered to remain silent by the Patronage Secretary. At any rate, we have heard this evening that in 1913 Government back benchers were active in criticising their own Chancellor, so active that the Chancellor had in the end to give way. Rarely in the history of Parliament have Government back benchers been so docile as they are today.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill
    Mr. H. Wilson: I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
    I move this Motion to give the Chancellor—I thought that he would be here—an opportunity to tell the Committee what plans the Government have for the rest of the evening, so that the Committee can make its disposition accordingly.
    Mr. Powell: In the absence of the Chancellor I think I can say that, as the next two Clauses are short and perhaps will not give rise to much debate, it would be reasonable if we dealt with them this evening.
    Mr. Wilson: I am sure that the Chancellor—who has just come into the Chamber—will be glad to know that the Financial Secretary has made a brief statement about the Government's intentions, which has now been communicated to him. I do not think that he wants to correct the impression given by the Financial Secretary. Perhaps I should make it clear to the Chancellor that some

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    feeling was expressed during the last few minutes—when the Chancellor was not here—on Clause 7, and that some comments about the absence of the Law Officers were made. I do not want to make a point about that in relation to Clauses 8 and 9.
    10.45 p.m.
    This is the Financial Secretary's first and, we trust, last Finance Bill in his present capacity. That is not meant as any reflection upon the courtesy with which he has dealt with the Amendments that he has handled, but it raises the wider question of changes of Government.
    I would tell the Financial Secretary, however, that I think he is rather optimistic in saying that Clauses 8 and 9 are short and do not raise much in the way of debate, because I am sure that it will be within the recollection of many hon. Members that in past years the Clause which lays down the standard rate of Income Tax, and is required to be repeated annually, very often gives rise to considerable debate. Certainly, when hon. Members opposite formed the Opposition they used to indulge in the longest possible debates on these occasions, and I am sure that the Economic Secretary was one of the most active Members then. It was their policy to harry Governments, but we have shown much greater restraint. We have certainly shown a greater respect for Parliament. It is also possible that a long debate could take place on the rate of Surtax.
    I rise now only to say that I think that the Government have made considerable progress in the last three days and I am sure that it would be the wish of the whole Committee that we should start fresh tomorrow afternoon with a discussion on Clause 10. I am glad that the Chancellor was agreeable to our view that we ought not to start Clause 10 at a late hour, because it is a Clause in which the whole country is greatly interested and one upon which many hon. Members wish to speak. It would be a pity to have to discuss it at this time.
    I would not want to do anything that would in any way infringe the right of hon. Members to have a debate on Clauses 8 and 9, but my own recommendation would be that although we are
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    fully entitled to have a major debate, starting about now, on the whole question of the level of Income Tax and the Government's policy to reduce Government expenditure, and so on, we should not indulge in such a debate this evening. There may be another occasion later, and we should refresh ourselves, so far as that is possible, between now and tomorrow afternoon so that we can have a proper debate on the various Amendments proposed to Clause 10, which in the belief of many hon. Members is the nub of the Bill, and the one which we must examine most carefully.
    I recommend my hon. Friends to accept the proposal made by the Financial Secretary that we should facilitate the progress of the Bill tonight so far as Clause 8 and 9 are concerned, and then give the most thorough, exhaustive and constructive examination to the Clauses which will be before us tomorrow afternoon. I cannot speak for my hon. Friends, and I cannot interfere with their freedom of debate, but it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we facilitated, so far as possible, the discussion of the following two Clauses, upon which there are no Amendments and, as far as I know, no basic controversy such as might be tested in the Division Lobbies.
    I hope that the Chancellor will notice once again how, this year, as last year, we are being so helpful and constructive in facilitating the speed of passage of a Bill about which we have very many reservations.
    Mr. Ede: While the Chancellor of the Exchequer was absent—and I make no complaint about that—there was a prolonged discussion on Clause 7, which included a most erudite and well-documented speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) on the constitutional propriety of including the Clause in the Bill. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take the opportunity, if not of reading the whole debate, at least of reading the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East. When we reach the Report stage we shall move to delete the Clause from the Bill, if only to get an explanation from the Law Officers of the Crown, and possibly from the right hon. Gentleman himself, of the reasons for including it in the Bill.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I am always interested in the interventions of the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) and I am sure that I shall profit from this one. I make no apology for not being present when the hon. Gentleman was speaking, because I have been fairly constant in my attendance during these debates.
    I thank the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) for what he said. We are making progress with the Bill and giving it full and proper discussion. I agree that the right course would be to make a fresh start tomorrow on Clause 10, to which the main Amendments have been put down.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clauses 8 and 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    To report Progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. P. Thorneycroft.]
    Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

PARISH COUNCILS (MISCEL LANEOUS PROVISIONS) [MONEY]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).—[Queen's Recommendation signified.]
[Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision as to the constitution of parish councils, and as to the powers of parish councils and parish meetings, in rural parishes in England and Wales, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the sums so payable under Part I of the Local Government Act, 1948, or under the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act, 1954, as amended by the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1956, which may be attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session,—[Mr. Powell.]
Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.

SCOTLAND (RURAL ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Oakshott.]
10.53 p.m.
Mr. H. R. Spence: I am grateful for this opportunity of raising the question of rural electricity supplies in the North of Scotland. It is my purpose to bring to the attention of the Minister the state of affairs which has arisen not through the fault of any particular Department, but by the process of events both practical and economic.
I wish to cite, in particular, what has happened in my own constituency. We have seen the Hydro-Electricity Board gradually spreading its network of supplies over almost the whole of Scotland. Some parts have been receiving supplies in advance of others, and a great part of my own county of Aberdeen is already amply supplied by the grid network Islands of isolation have grown up, for the reason that when the grid network was originally thought out emphasis was put upon getting the maximum number of consumers for any length of line. In the initial stages of its development, the Board went to the larger centres and the more populous areas.
There are one or two peculiar results. One is that in my constituency there is an island of no supply literally within a mile or two of Aberdeen, in the parish of Balmedie. Again, just near Inverurie, the parish of Keith Hall, has no supply at all. The Hydro-Electric Board has indicated that as soon as funds permit it will electrify these areas, but the credit squeeze has meant that the plans have been put off again and again.
I think all would agree that electricity is essential for any large modern farm; I am concerned at the position in which the agricultural part of the constituency is finding itself when it tries to get a supply put in under present conditions in these islands of isolation. The cost of installation of grid electricity used to be a comparative minor consideration, provided that the user could give a guarantee of fairly constant use of current, but the cost has gone up. The position now is absurd. The cost of putting

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electricity into farms which are not actually close to the main distribution lines is absolutely prohibitive.
I will quote from a letter which I received only on Monday. It gives the precise figures for installation of electricity on three farms in the Keith Hall area, Tweeddale, Laggat and Altons. The cost of installation is £4,120, a sum out of all relation to modern economic balance. It is wrong that farms which, through no fault of their own—their geographical position—should face such a high capital charge to get electricity. This is due to the peculiar way in which the grid system has developed and the economic circumstances which have arisen since the inception of the whole idea.
We have to consider not only these islands of isolation and the position of farms in them, but also the general pattern of the development of electricity in rural cottages. There are many cases in which supplies have been promised and then, apparently through no fault of the authority, the project has been dropped owing to the credit squeeze. Again and again we find houses wired for electricity and fitted with all the essential domestic requirements for electricity and yet no mains electricity available and no immediate prospect of it becoming available.
I should like the Minister to consider what action should be taken to help solve all these problems. First, there is the problem of seeing that a whole county is covered by a grid of electrical supplies and that there are not these awful blanks left which produce their own aggravated problems. Secondly, I think he must consider how the question of this very high installation cost can be met, and, thirdly, whether it is really necessary that the credit squeeze shall be applied so drastically to the Hydro-Electric Board in cases where there are housing schemes or groups of houses built and wired in expectation of a grid supply which now find no grid supply forthcoming.
I have a letter from the Hydro-Electric Board, signed by the chairman, which, I believe, is addressed to all Scottish hon. Members, asking them to do what they can in the consideration of forthcoming legislation to facilitate the introduction of electricity to rural cottages for farm
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workers, blacksmiths and those whose livelihood is obtained from the land. It emphasises the discontent of those who have moved into houses expecting to enjoy the benefits of the grid and all it brings and finding they have to do without. I appreciate the intractable nature of this problem and I am grateful of the opportunity of raising it tonight and giving the Minister the opportunity of replying, if he can helpfully, to the points I have put before him.
11.3 p.m.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Niall Macpherson): My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen-shire, West (Mr. Spence) is, I think, aware of the limitations of the authority of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in the matter he has raised. I should point out at the outset that my right hon. Friend has no responsibility either for the order in which applicants are connected, or for the terms on which they are connected. Apart from the Government's overall control of capital investment, my right hon. Friend has no responsibility for the rate at which applicants are connected.
My hon. Friend will be aware that Section 10 (1) of the Hydro-Electric Development (Scotland) Act, 1943, lays upon the Board the duty so to exercise their functions under the Act
"as to secure that the revenues …are not less than sufficient to meet their outgoings properly chargeable to revenue account taking one year with another."
The capital costs of distribution, as my hon. Friend will be aware, are largely met by borrowing. Such development may be economic and he has referred to the way in which development took place in the past. That is where the revenue resulting is more than sufficient to meet the annual charge and the operational cost, but much of the development which remains to be done is unlikely to prove economic.
To connect a few consumers miles of lines may be needed. The rate of such development must, therefore, depend on the ability of the Board to make a surplus. Uneconomic expenditure must be related to the Board's earning capacity on the whole of its activities. It cannot undertake new distribution on a more extensive scale than its finances permit.

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I should make it plain that it has never been the policy of the Government of any political persuasion to subsidise the electricity industry. Each board has to take the rough with the smooth in its own area. My hon. Friend asked three particular questions. He asked us to do what we could to see that a whole county is covered. He asked how to meet the costs of installation, and about the credit squeeze. Let me answer, first, on the credit squeeze. Last year, the Board was requested by the Government to curtail capital expenditure on distribution by 10 per cent. This year its proposals have been approved in full. It is, therefore, true to say that it is not the case that there is a drastic application of the credit squeeze to the Hydro-Electric Board in existing circumstances.
Mr. Spence: But would the Minister agree that there is drastic application by the Board of the credit squeeze as its excuse for not going on with the various schemes?
Mr. Macpherson: Well, that is a matter within the responsibility of the Board itself. Undoubtedly the credit squeeze has played its part, because it is only to the extent that it can make a surplus that it can meet the charges for uneconomic development.
My hon. Friend's second point was about installation costs. Grants towards installation of electricity are available in several ways. They can be made available as part of a comprehensive hill farming scheme, and nearly half the schemes in Scotland which have been approved or are under consideration include proposals for installing electricity and wiring, and the estimated cost of those which have been approved or are under consideration is about £500,000.
Secondly, grants are available as part of the cost of improving or converting houses or cottages, subject to a minimum expenditure of £100 and a maximum grant of £400 per house or cottage. Thirdly, as part of the cost of labour and materials towards the improvement of the dwelling house of a croft, which is outside this particular area.
But there is an additional point, that now grants are to be made available for individual improvements, including electricity for the farm, but not the farmhouse or cottage, to holdings which are eco-
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nomic or will become so as a result of the improvement, provided that the expenditure is likely to produce a reasonable return.
My hon. Friend mentioned the costs of installation, but not of tariffs, but as they are linked I will deal with them together. The question of charges to be made for bringing electricity in the first place, or for the actual supply of electricity, is a question undoubtedly for the Board, as he will find if he looks at Section 10 of the Hydro-Electric Development (Scotland) Act, 1943, and there are only two limitations on their absolute discretion in the matter of tariffs. They must not show undue preference to any person or class of persons, and, secondly, the consultative council for the district is charged with the duty of considering any matter affecting the distribution of electricity in the area, including the variation of tariffs.
Under Section 7 (8) of the Electricity Act, 1947, the consultative council may make representations to the Secretary of State on any matter which it has submitted to the Board and which has been considered by the Board, and the Secretary of State may, if he thinks fit, give directions to the Board after consultation with it, but only if he considers that a defect is disclosed in the Board's general plans and arrangements for carrying out their functions.
My right hon. Friend could not properly give a direction which detracted from the Board's statutory duty to fix tariffs. No such representations about connecting charges in outlying areas have been made to the Secretary of State by the North of Scotland District Consultative Council, and I understand that no such representations have been made to the Council in recent years.
My hon. Friend dealt with plans and with the fact that certain projects of the Hydro-Electric Board have been postponed. The Board, naturally, makes its own plans for phasing development, and in pursuance of its plans it negotiated agreements for supply with about 1,500 persons, that is to say, about a quarter of the potential consumers in the area with which my hon. Friend is mainly concerned, namely, West Banff, Strathbogie and Strathdon. That was up to April, 1956. I understand that these agreements

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still stand. My hon. Friend says that in some cases wires still stand, waiting for the agreement to be implemented.
Unfortunately, when the Board reduced its capital investment programme by 10 per cent. at the Government's request in 1956, it decided that the areas in which development should be suspended should include the areas of West Banff, Strathbogie, and Strathdon. Moreover, in April, 1956, the Board introduced revised arrangements, limiting its capital contribution and requiring consumers with whom agreements were made thereafter to pay a capital contribution as well as give a minimum guarantee.
While the Board must adhere to its planned phasing of development, it is willing to connect a consumer, or group of consumers, out of turn, so to speak, provided that the consumer or consumers are prepared to pay the whole cost of bringing the supply. I imagine that what my hon. Friend has in mind about the farms which he mentioned is that these are farms in respect of which the extension of distribution has been temporarily postponed. I think he said that the project had been dropped, but that is not so. The project has been postponed.
My hon. Friend said that if they wanted to get a supply immediately they
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would have to pay the full cost of bringing the electricity there. That may happen in certain cases, for example, where there is a private supply which has to be replaced and it is urgent to replace it. In those cases, it may be worth while for the applicant to get his supply out of turn—because it is outside the phased plan—provided that he pays the full cost.
I will gladly look into the matter which my hon. Friend has raised about these farms, but I would suggest to him that since the order of meeting the needs of various areas is a matter for the Board, in which my right hon. Friend has no authority to intervene, the best thing would be for the three farmers in question, if they consider they are being unduly by-passed, to take their complaints to the local committee of the North of Scotland Consultative Council, which in this case, I understand, is the General Purposes Committee of the Aberdeen County Council.
That is the correct channel through which to make this approach, but there is no doubt that my hon. Friend has done a service in raising this matter in the House tonight, and I hope that this short debate has served to make clearer where the various responsibilities lie.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at sixteen minutes past Eleven o'clock.

MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Buildings, Manchester and Salford
  Buildings, Manchester and Salford
  Clock Tower (Visitors)
  Clock Tower (Visitors)
BRITISH ARMY
  Civilian Employees
  Civilian Employees
  Territorial Army Units, Shropshire
  Territorial Army Units, Shropshire
  Suez Contracting Companies (Employees)
  Suez Contracting Companies (Employees)
  B.A.O.R. (Domestic Welfare Services)
  B.A.O.R. (Domestic Welfare Services)
  Vaccination (Smallpox)
  Vaccination (Smallpox)
HOUSING
  Queen's Park Estate, Paddington (Conversion Scheme)
  Queen's Park Estate, Paddington (Conversion Scheme)
SCOTLAND
  Fishery Cruiser "Vaila" (Loss)
  Fishery Cruiser "Vaila" (Loss)
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  National Superannuation Scheme
  National Superannuation Scheme
  HYDROGEN BOMB TESTS
  HYDROGEN BOMB TESTS
  GOVERNMENT SECURITY SERVICES (UNIVERSITIES)
  GOVERNMENT SECURITY SERVICES (UNIVERSITIES)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Feedingstuffs
  Feedingstuffs
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Hospital Facilities, Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield
  Hospital Facilities, Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield
  Mental Illness (Psychiatric Treatment)
  Mental Illness (Psychiatric Treatment)
EMPLOYMENT
  Rhondda
  Rhondda
  Skegness, Mablethorpe and Alford
  Skegness, Mablethorpe and Alford
POST OFFICE
  Estimates (Hospitality)
  Estimates (Hospitality)
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Victor and Vulcan Aircraft (Engines)
  Victor and Vulcan Aircraft (Engines)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Long-playing Gramophone Records
  Long-playing Gramophone Records
  Spinning and Weaving Machinery
  Spinning and Weaving Machinery

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

ARUNDEL ESTATE BILL [H.L.]
Read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
2.36 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill he now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ª.—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, before your Lordships' pleasure is ascertained on this Bill, I should like to say a few words, as it will perhaps be remembered that we had some discussion on this matter on the Second Reading. I then said that I did not consider the Select Committee procedure the proper one for an issue of this kind with its far-reaching consequences; and I still feel that to be the case. The Select Committee is excellent in its own field and is an admirable tribunal; and I say nothing at all about the noble Lords who on this occasion made up the Select Committee. But I felt on Second Reading, and I feel now,
2
that a much wider-ranging inquiry was needed to de justice to the objections to the proposed flooding of the Tryweryn Valley.
Your Lordships may remember that on Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, suggested that there should have been a Water Bill procedure here. I believe he was right and that the matter should have proceeded under the Water Act rather than by a Select Committee. The Minister has referred the matter to the Council of Wales, and in the Report of Government action, for the year ended June 30, 1956, the Minister said, in paragraph 203:
"In view of the attention focused upon Welsh water resources during the year, mainly because of the activities of Liverpool Corporation, the Minister of Housing and Local Government has asked the Council for Wales and Monmouthshire to consider:

(a) whether the existing statutory powers and administrative machinery are adequate to safeguard the various interests concerned, including the interests of water supply undertakings seeking future supplies of water for use inside or outside Wales and the interests of any localities and communities in Wales that might be affected by future water supply schemes;

(b) whether there are any general considerations relating to the future use of water resources in Wales for water supply purposes to which it would be useful to draw attention at the present time."

The Committee have not yet given the Minister their conclusions on that proposal, and I understand that an inquiry is being held at the moment into this subject; and no doubt in due course we shall have the results of that inquiry. I feel that Parliament is not in a position to decide on this matter until it has the

3
result of that inquiry and of the deliberations of the Committee of the Council of Wales, which can, of course, look at the proposal as a whole, can regard water resources in their national context and can have regard to supplies needed not only by Wales but by England. Then Parliament will be in a position to decide whether or not the Liverpool Corporation Bill is a proper one in the circumstances.
On Second Reading, even the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, was in favour of some kind of nationalisation of water—he did not call it nationalisation but unification; but I imagine it is the same thing. I feel that, with our dwindling water resources—of which no doubt we shall hear more tomorrow, when the Motion of the noble Earl, Lord Albemarle, is before us—it is a mistake to allow a big corporation to "barge in", as it were, on the head waters of rivers and to allocate to themselves water which may well be better applied in other areas or to other communities. For this reason, I feel that it is very regrettable that the Select Committee has approved this Bill and I shall very much regret it if your Lordships decide to give it your support.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, may I say that I do not accept the conclusions of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, that unification and nationalisation are necessarily the same thing?
LORD OGMORE: What is the difference?
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, perhaps I may be permitted at this stage to say a few words on this important Bill. I think the House generally is aware that the Bill has been given very detailed examination, for a period of nine days, by a Select Committee of this House which was presided over by the noble Marquess, Lord Reading; and after considering all the evidence put before them by both sides, the Committee have decided that the Bill should now proceed. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has repeated his reasons for opposing the use of the Private Bill procedure on a subject of this nature, and he has again given the reasons which have prompted him to take this view. I myself
4
believe that this procedure is very suitable for a technical Bill of this character, for the measure can be examined by the Select Committee in every single detail—indeed, I know of no other procedure which would allow such close scrutiny.
LORD OGMORE: May I ask the noble Earl whether his attention has been drawn to the procedure under the Water Act, which was passed by the Labour Government?
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I shall deal with that, I hope, in the course of my observations. My right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government—and it is sometimes, in fact often, forgotten that he is Minister for Welsh Affairs—has been criticised in certain places, in that it was said he gave insufficient support to the Welsh case. In the Report which my right honourable friend sent to the Select Committee, however, he made some general recommendations which, with the permission of the House, I should like to read. I read them for this reason: that they are all-important and they deal with the greater part of the points which were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, this afternoon. My right honourable friend said in this Report:
"The Minister understands and sympathises with the natural desire of Welsh people to be sure that water in the Principality which may be required for Welsh needs is not diverted elsewhere. But Wales is a land of mountains and valleys with abundant rainfall. On all the information available he has no reason to suppose that the proposals now before Parliament would result in loss of water likely to be needed by Wales, or in damage to Welsh economic interests.
"The Committee will be aware that on 7th February. 1957 the Minister announced that a survey of Welsh water resources was to be carried out and that an Advisory Committee was to be set up on the use and conservation of water in Wales. These steps reflect the Minister's view that the water resources of Wales are not limitless; they do not however imply any immediate anxiety, and indeed it is bound to take a considerable time, certainly well over a year, before the survey can be completed. The Minister considers, on the facts available to him, that the Liverpool Corporation have an urgent need to augment their water resources, and that the use for this purpose of water draining from the Tryweryn area to the east wilt not result in the loss of water likely to be needed by Wales; but he has no doubt that the Committee will wish to sift very carefully the evidence put before them on both these points. In considering whether the proposals

5
ought to be held up until the completion of the survey of Welsh water resources initiated by the Minister, they will doubtless bear in mind the: the considered observations of the Advisory Committee on this survey would not be available in time for the Bill to be reintroduced next Session.
"Finally, there is the disquiet and depth of feeling amongst many Welsh people that the proposal of the Liverpool Corporation constitutes an English intrusion, which they ought to resist, upon Welsh nationhood, and cultural life and aspirations.
"The Minister could not advise that a proposal designed to meet the needs of a great population for water ought to be ruled out of further consideration solely on this ground But he invites the Committee to give most careful attention to these strong feelings."
Those were the observations which were submitted to the Select Committee by my right honourable friend who is Minister for Welsh Affairs, and, having read them to the House, I feel sure that the House will agree at once that my right honourable friend had not overlooked the feeling in Wales. Indeed, he had especially drawn the Committee's attention to all the propositions and criticisms which had been made from the Principality.
It has also been said that the Select Committee could not give an unprejudiced finding as all the members were Englishmen.
LORD OGMORE: I never said anything of the kind.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I am not saying that the noble Lord did.
LORD OGMORE: If I may say so, the noble Earl is really answering a case which I never made at all. I simply put the case to your Lordships, that I thought that while the Committee set up by the Government were considering the matter it was better to hold up the proposals. That was the only case I made. The noble Earl is going into other matters which I never raised.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: I have, I think, answered the noble Lord's case about the Committee going into this question of water supply. I think it is clear that your Lordships' Select Corn-mince were well aware of the criticisms that were made about extracting water front Wales for the purposes of the Liverpool City and Corporation. I hope that I have shown that by quoting to your Lordships the observations submitted by the Minister to the Committee.
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Now I am going on to deal with something else. I am not saying that the noble Lord made this accusation for one moment—because he did not. Nevertheless, it has been said that the Select Committee of your Lordships' House could not give an unprejudiced finding as all the members were Englishmen. I am bound to say that I hardly think it is necessary for me to rebut such allegations, for, as your Lordships know full well, the impartiality of our Select Committees is beyond all question. It is surprising that such a reflection on the integrity of one of your Lordships' Committees should have been made, and even more surprising that it should have been published in the Liverpool Daily Post, a paper of very considerable standing.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I think that this is a completely new matter. Though I have been closely associated with this issue, I have never heard any suggestion of the kind, and I have never heard any attack whatsoever on the Select Committee, or on its members, from anybody. If the noble Earl is now setting up this Aunt Sally. I think that he ought to tell us who made the Aunt Sally. I think it is an extraordinary process, to make these allegations which, so far as I am aware, have never been made by arty reputable Welsh people.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord must have failed to have read that one issue of the Liverpool Daily Post when criticism of some length was made of the Select Committee of your Lordships' House. I can quote him the date on which this was published in the paper; indeed I will see that it is sent to him. All I ant endeavouring to do, and I think that I am well within my rights, is to maintain that the integrity of your Lordships' House is beyond all dispute, and that if a Select Committee is appointed by this House we may expect to receive from that Committee a quite impartial Report. That is all I say, but I think that it is right that I should defend the impartiality of the Select Committee. In conclusion, I would only say that, with the best will in the world, I cannot suggest to your Lordships that you should overthrow the decision which has been arrived at unanimously by the Select Committee of this House and refuse to

7
give the Bill a Third Reading. I suggest that it would be in accordance with all our procedure, except in very rare instances, that the Bill should now be read a third time.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, as I have been quoted in this debate, I should like to say that I entirely support what my noble friend Lord Munster has said.
On Question, Bill read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

HYDE PARK CORNER IMPROVEMENT
2.53 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when it is anticipated that work will be started on the road improvement scheme embracing the Marble Arch, Park Lane, and Hyde Park Corner, as outlined in recent official announcements; how long the work may be expected to take, and what steps can be taken to relieve the increasing traffic congestion in the area in the meantime.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, legislation will be required to provide the necessary powers to enable Her Majesty's Government to undertake the Hyde Park road improvement scheme, and my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation hopes to authorise the improvements as soon as possible after those powers have been obtained. Until the contract drawings are completed, it is difficult to say how long the work will take to complete, but it will be pressed forward with all possible speed. It is not practicable to undertake any improvement works in the area in advance of the scheme, but the arrangements for traffic control will be kept under constant review to keep congestion to a minimum.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that figures have just been published showing that 91,000 vehicles are using this concentration point per day, and that the
8
figures have gone up by 10,000 since the last figures were available in 1954? Would the noble Lord say, when the Ministry of Transport were indicating this very desirable scheme, whether or not they had been in touch with the London County Council before the scheme was published? How long have we to wait while legislation takes its accustomed course—because it may take a long time? And is the noble Lord aware that this is the highest concentration point in this country—perhaps in the whole of Europe?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he can inform us when it is proposed that his right honourable friend should place the proposed legislation before Parliament?
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, it is well known that Hyde Park Corner is one of the busiest, if not the busiest, of traffic intersections in the world. The figures which my noble friend Lord Howe has given the House serve only to emphasise the wisdom of Her Majesty's Government in initiating this bold and comprehensive scheme. The London County Council, of course, have been consulted all along throughout the negotiations. I hope that the initiating of legislation will not take too long, but complicated matters, involving the ownership of land, are involved. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, we hope to commission the whole scheme in the financial year 1958–59, and if the passing of the Bill is not delayed, there is every likelihood that work will begin in that year.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, does that mean that the necessary Bill will not be introduced into Parliament until 1958?
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, the commission of the scheme is within that financial year. We hope to introduce a Bill into Parliament as soon as possible.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am sorry to press the noble Lord on this matter, but could he give us some idea when "as soon as possible" may be?
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am afraid that I have no control over the legislative programme. All I can say is

9
that Her Majesty's Government desire to press on with this matter as fast as they possibly can.
EARL HOWE: My Lord, does that mean that this matter will be treated as one of real urgency?
LORD MANCROFT: Yes, my Lords.

TRAVEL ALLOWANCES TO DOLLAR COUNTRIES
2.57 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will give further consideration to extending the basic travel allowance to private persons wishing to visit Canada and the U.S.A.; in view of the vital necessity of improving the knowledge and understanding of these great countries among citizens of the United Kingdom.]
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer keeps this subject under continuous review. He is anxious to provide a basic travel allowance for the dollar area as soon as circumstances permit.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, arising out of the Answer of the noble Viscount, may I ask whether he has noticed that a number of prominent persons, both from Canada and the United States of America, including Mr. Adlai Stevenson, have expressed opinions on the desirability of increasing tourism to dollar countries? In view of that fact, will the noble Viscount consider the possibility of some approach to the appropriate Governments, with a view to getting them to assist us to reduce to a minimum any drain on our dollar resources?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I am aware that opinion en the other side of the Atlantic would favour the change. So, I think, would it here. I am not quite sure what assistance my noble friend has in mind; I should have thought that if you wanted dollars, you would have to get them.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, whatever may be the position about dollars, what is the excuse, if any, for maintaining restrictions on travel to Europe?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, that is a totally different question from that on the Order Paper.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount, while bearing in mind the assurance that he has given, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer keeps this subject under continuous review, if, in view of the reports in the Press (perhaps erroneous) of the allocation of sterling for tourist visits to Russia and of the satisfying of the demand on security sterling for the purchase of dollar securities by British citizens, apparently absorbed without distress, the moment has not now arrived for a more lenient assessment of the pros and cons for wider permits for visits to North America?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I think that we are all agreed that this would be a desirable change, but the considerations which my noble friend has put before the House, although legitimate, do not seem to me to be the only considerations which have to be taken into account.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, with the indulgence of the House (because it was impossibly; to ask that question without putting it as I did), in, view of the importance of this matter on Anglo-American relations, may I ask my noble friend if he will boar in mind whether the case of allowances for migrants to Canada, which was resisted for so long by Her Majesty's Government and then yielded to, may not count as a precedent for a more generous allocation of funds for the purpose of travel, thus supporting the improvement of relations between the United States and Great Britain?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I doubt whether my right honourable friend would consider that the granting of allowances for emigrants, to enable them to take out their money for that necessary purpose, is a precedent for travel allowances, which may raise quite different considerations.
LORD GEDDES: My Lords, arising out of the noble Viscount's Answer to the original Question, and bearing in mind

11
the desire evident in Canada to terminate the eighteen-year embargo on British tourists to Canada, could the noble Viscount say whether any steps are, in fact, in contemplation towards discussion with the Canadian Government to alleviate this situation?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I understand that it is not considered practicable to make a differentiation between travel expenditure in Canada and in other countries in the dollar area as a matter of exchange control administration. It is my view, as it is that of my right honourable friend, that all these restrictions are undesirable, and one looks forward to the time, as soon as possible, when they may be lifted, or at any rate eased.

GOVERNORS' PENSIONS BILL [H.L.]
3.1 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate the Governors' Pensions Acts, 1911 to 1956; and to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1ª.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1ª, and to be printed.

MATRIMONIAL CAUSES JURISDICTION BILL [H.L.]
LORD MESTON: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the common law rules as modified by sections sixteen and eighteen of the Matrimonial Causes Act, 1950, relating to the jurisdiction of the English courts in respect of matrimonial causes and to amend the common law rules relating to the recognition of decrees of oversea countries in respect of matrimonial causes. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1ª.—(Lord Meston.)
On Question, Bill read 1ª. and to be printed.

AGRICULTURE BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª and to be printed.
CHEQUES BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª and to be printed.

RENT BILL
3.2 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, as your Lordships are aware, we are now approaching the end of the passage of this Bill, which has been the subject of so much controversy, both in and out of Parliament, through your Lordships' House. Without wearying your Lordships by reciting again the purposes of the Bill, or the Amendments which were inserted during its passage through the House, I would only say this. I believe the case for this Bill to be quite overwhelming, and I have never thought that it would have such a devastating effect as the Opposition have always considered would result from its passage into law. The Bill has been discussed at considerable length in this House at each of its stages, and we have made some useful additions to it. The Government have, wherever possible, endeavoured to meet the wishes of the House, but it has not been possible for me to accept any Amendment, on the Committee or Report stages of the Bill, which would radically have altered the Bill's structure. I would only repeat that I am sure the House will not expect me on this occasion, when we also have a number of Amendments, to remind your Lordships of the purposes of the Bill, or of the Amendments which have been so recently inserted. With those few remarks, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ª.—(The Earl of Munster.)
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that the debate on the Third Reading of this Bill be adjourned until to-morrow. This is a rather unusual procedure, but I understand it is quite a correct one, and it is applicable in this

13
case for this reason. On the Report stage of the Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Meston, put down an Amendment to insert a new clause after Clause 17. The noble Lord, in the course of his arguments in support of the new clause said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 203 (No. 71), col. 1035]:
"The short point is that at present the amount of any expenditure incurred by a landlord in carrying out what are generally known as ' street works ' does not count as expenditure on an improvement, within the meaning of that term in the Rent Act. This Amendment reverses the position…."
The noble Earl, Lord Munster, speaking after the noble Lord, Lord Meston, said [col. 1036]:
"My Lords, my noble friend has correctly interpreted the purpose of the Amendment which stands in his name and which I told him on the Committee stage of the Bill—we should be prepared to accept."
I then said that I was surprised that the Government were going to accept the Amendment, and that, in fact, I did not recall that on the Committee stage the Government were of this mind.
I gave reasons at some length as to why we were concerned at the attitude of the Government in accepting the new clause of the noble Lord, Lord Meston. In reply to me, the noble Earl, Lord Munster, said [col. 1037]:
"If the noble Lord will refer to Clause 5 of the Bill, he will see that it re-enacts Section 2 (1) of the Rent Act, 1920, which already covers the case in which a landlord himself incurs expenditure in improving a road which forms part of a dwelling let to a controlled tenant. Thus, for nearly forty years the landlord who makes up the private road adjoining his property has been enabled to recover from the tenant expenditure up to 8 per cent. What this Amendment mainly does is to make clear that the law passed in 1920 will function after this Bill becomes an Act. There is nothing sinister about it: it merely re-enacts Section 2 (1) of the Act of 1920."
My noble friend Lord Alexander of Hillsborough then asked a question of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack as to whether the county court referred to in the new clause was the one referred to in Clause 5; and he then said [col. 1038]:
"Perhaps I may know from the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack, as I am just a layman in these matters, whether this is one of the matters that can be the subject of appeal by the tenant to the county court."
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The noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, replied [col. 1038]:
"My Lords, I should like to help the noble Viscount, but I am not sure what he has in mind as to the stage at which this matter would go to the county court. Perhaps the noble Viscount will explain his doubts to me further. I will then certainly look into the matter and let him know the position before the Third Reading."
Taking the first point, whether there was any alteration in the law as the result of Lord Meston's new clause, your Lordships will have observed from what Lord Munster said that he first of all agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Meston, that there was an alteration in the law; that it did, in fact, involve a complete reversal of the law. Then, in answer to me, he said that there was no change at all: it was mainly, he said, a re-enactment of the previous taw. To that extent, there was a complete and contradictory series of statements by the Government on this important clause.
Recently, the noble Earl, Lord Munster (I must give him full marks for this, because he could, I suppose, have said nothing about it), has courteously, properly and fairly written to me and pointed out that in fact there is a difference as a result of this clause; and that the noble Lord, Lord Meston, was right and he himself was right the first time, but that he (that is, the noble Earl) was not right the second time. I have obtained the noble Earl's permission, and I will read to your Lordships what he said to me. He said:
"On reading over Hansard for Tuesday's debate on the Report stage of the Rent Bill I felt that I should send you this additional note so that there can be no misunderstanding as to the extent to which the new clause on road charges adds to the existing law.
Clause 5, as it stands, for all practical purposes, has the same scope as Section 2 (1) (a) of the Rent Act, 1920, in that, as I am advised, is already covers the case in which the landlord himself directly incurs expenditure in improving a road which forms part of a dwelling let to a controlled tenant. This is normally so where the whole of the landlord's property is let to the tenant. The new clause makes that quite clear and also deals similarly with the, nowadays, more normal case where the landlord, on the requisition of the local authority, does not himself actually do the work but leaves the local authority to do it and they charge him for it.
The clause also does one more thing in dealing with the case where the landlord's property is let to more than one tenant. This happens not infrequently nowadays where a large house and its grounds are split up. The

15
clause provides that the cost shall be spread over the occupiers by agreement, or by the Court, regard being had to the benefit received. This is the proviso to subsection (2).
I hope you will agree with the Government that these two extensions, to meet the practical circumstances of to-day, in no way violate the principle already enshrined in the 1920 Act."
Whether the extensions violate that principle or not, it is quite clear, I think, from the letter of the noble Earl that they do import into the law new considerations; that they do enable landlords to claim from certain classes of tenants higher rents for improvements for road works which landlords could not claim previously. To this extent—and it is an important extent because, as the noble Earl says in his letter, the new cases covered by this new clause are, in fact, the more usual cases in these days—it is an important change, and I say, with all sincerity, that if we had known this on the Report stage of the Bill, we should certainly have divided the House against it.
LORD MESTON: Divide now.
LORD OGMORE: We are going to; that is the whole object of this exercise.
We felt that, as we were given information which was incorrect—although, let me say, here and now, that I do not charge the noble Earl for one moment with consciously misleading the House, though, in fact, he did unconsciously do so—that we must test the opinion of the House on this new clause. We have now had its effects and ramifications explained to us for the first time, which was not done before, although, to be fair to him, the noble Lord, Lord Meston, did say that it involved a change in the law and an obligation on the tenant. I absolve him from any fault in this case. We must test the House on this matter. It has never had the opportunity of being tested, and for that reason we intend to divide the House and to ask your Lordships to agree that the Third Reading be adjourned until to-morrow. If your Lordships will agree to that course, it will enable us to put down an Amendment for a debate to-morrow. We cannot do that to-day. Under the Rules of the House it is not possible for us to put down a Manuscript Amendment on Third Reading-. But if your Lordships would agree, as I hope you will, to adjourn the proceedings
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on the Third Reading until tomorrow, we will put down an Amendment. We will put it in straight away, and it can be argued and the case can be put more fully than I have been able to put it in the short time I have felt justified in taking up this afternoon. Therefore, I would ask your Lordships to agree to that course.
Before we get to that stage, there is one other matter to which I must refer. I mentioned earlier (in one way it is a separate issue, although, in a sense, it is tied up) the question which my noble Leader put to the noble and learned Viscount, and that was the question about the county court. We did not get an answer to this on the Report stage, for the reasons I have given. But we have now received from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack—and we are grateful to him for his courtesy—an answer. If he has no objection, I will read the answer to your Lordships. It clears up that doubt, but it puts the unfortunate tenant in a difficulty, as your Lordships will see. The noble and learned Viscount says in his letter:
"In the course of the discussion of Lord Meston's amendment to the Rent Bill I promised that I would look into the question you put to me about the jurisdiction of the county court and let you know what the position is. When you referred to the possibility of an appeal by the tenant to the county court, I think you probably had in mind the provisions of Clause 5 of the Bill which relate to improvements generally, and in particular subsection (3) of that clause which enables a tenant who considers that an improvement made by the landlord was unnecessary or unreasonably expensive to appeal to the county court for an order cancelling the increase in rent otherwise permitted for the improvement.
"Such an application by the tenant would not be appropriate where road works are concerned and Clause 5 (3) is accordingly excluded by subsection (4) of Lord Meston's new clause. The execution of the works will be required by a local authority under one of the enactments mentioned in subsection (2) of the new clause. Indeed, normally the local authority will itself do the work and recoup its expenditure from the owner of the house. A machinery for testing the reasonableness of the local authority's request or expenditure is laid down under the enactments I have mentioned, and in these circumstances it would not be right to provide a further system of appeal by which the need for the works, or their cost, can be challenged by the tenant as between himself and his landlord. There may, of course, also be questions of apportioning the improvement charge between two or more tenants occupying different parts of the house. Lord Meston's

17
new clause, in the proviso to subsection (2), enables any dispute on the proportion to be borne by a tenant to be taken to the county court or, in Scotland, to the sheriff court."
Your Lordships will see that the unfortunate tenant, so far as the expenditure which is incurred by the landlord or (as is more usual) by the local authority on the landlord's behalf is concerned, has not the right of recourse to the county court, and he has to go through the machinery under the Private Street Works Act. The only case where he can go to the county court is where there is an argument between two or more tenants over an apportionment of a charge which is about to be made or has been made by the local authority. Here, again, as the result of this clause the tenant is put in a difficult position, and the recourse to the county court which we imagined he would have is not available to him, at least as to the amount to be charged. That, it seems to us, is an added reason why this particular clause should be rejected. As I have said, we cannot reject this clause, however much we dislike it, to-day, because there is a rule against Manuscript Amendments. Therefore, I strongly urged your Lordships to pass the Amendment that I am submitting, that the debate al the Third Reading of this Bill be adjourned until to-morrow, so that we can put down a proper Amendment on the Order Paper and have it properly and fully debated, when the Government can no doubt bring forward such arguments as they may have in support of it. I beg to move.
Moved, That the debate on Third Reading be adjourned until to-morrow.—(Lord Ogmore.)
3.22 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, is there to be no answer from the Government?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am very sorry; I was moving from one capacity to another. First of all, let me say, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Munster and myself, that we both regret that the words should have misled noble Lords on the Opposition Benches. My noble friend Lord Munster was really distinguishing between the introduction of a new principle into the Bill and a minor alteration in the law. He has asked me to express regret that he did
18
not make clear to the House words which have been found misleading by noble Lords.
I think it would be useful if I indicated to the House the exact change which the provision proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Meston, makes. I hope the House, on consideration, will come to the conclusion that it is a point of infinite smallness and that I was right in saying that no new principle is introduced. As my noble friend Lord Munster said in the course of his speech, this provision, the new clause, to some extent overlaps Clause 5, and Clause 5 in this respect re-enacts Section 2 (1) (a) of the Act of 1920 in England and Wales, that provision being repealed by the Eighth Schedule, although the provision remains in force in Scotland.
Section 2 (1) (a) of the Act of 1920 and, similarly, Clause 5 of the Bill cover the case in which the landlord himself incurs expenditure in improving a road which forms part of a dwelling let to a controlled tenant. May I repeat that, because it is difficult when one refers to these various provisions. I want to make it clear that the case where the landlord himself incurs the expenditure is dealt with by Clause 5 of the Bill, and that, of course, has already been passed in the Committee stage and gone through this House. That is normally so where the whole of the landlord's property is let to the tenant, but, while this enables the landlord to recover the cost where he himself pays for the work, whether he does it on his own motion or because he is required to do it by a local authority, it does not cover the case which is even more usual nowadays where the local authority themselves do the work and charge the landlord, who is one of the frontagers to the street, his share of their expenditure.
In other words, Clause 5 deals with the case where the landlord has done the work and allows him to charge for that, but it does not deal with the case where local authority do the work and charge the landlord, who is then faced with the posit ion that he has to pay and in that case, before the clause of the noble Lord, Lord Meston, was inserted, he could not pass the cost on. But, in equity and fairness, there is no difference between the two situations and there can be no distinction in principle between the

19
two cases: one where the landlord himself pays for the work and the other where the local authority do the work and recover the appropriate charge. All that the new clause does in this respect is to put the two cases on the same footing. Therefore, although the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, is quite right in saying that my noble friend's words may be technically incorrect, in that he said that it does not make a change in the law, it really applies the same principle to two complex sets of facts. That is the first point.
As the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said, the clause makes one further provision. Although the landlord, in the circumstances which I have described, can increase the rent where only one tenant occupies the property against which the charge is made, the law makes no provision where the property is let in parts—for example, where a large house and its grounds have been split up. Again, the principle is clearly the same, whether the premises fronting the road are occupied by a single tenant or by several tenants. Subsection (2) of the clause of the noble Lord, Lord Meston, accordingly enables the landlord to increase the rent of any controlled tenant whose dwelling has access to the road. Again, there is no introduction of a new burden in any sense of that term, but there is an attempt to make all the provisions come logically into line. With that, I ask your Lordships to agree with me that Clause 18 introduces no new principle into the Rent Acts. It merely brings up to date the application of the existing principle embodied in Section 2 (1) (a) of the Act of 1920. Both extensions—the case where the local authority do the work, and where several occupiers are involved—are reasonable modifications of the law in order to make the matter logical and fair.
Upon the second point, I am sorry if I did not give an immediate answer to the noble Viscount who leads the Opposition. I was anxious to be quite sure that I had got his point. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, was good enough to read a letter which I wrote. That makes clear—at least I hope it does: that was the intention of my letter—that there are two aspects. One is where the local authority have already provided the basis of the charges and made the charges,
20
and in regard to the local authority's determination there is no appeal to the county court because the local authority act under their statutory powers. There is the procedure in the Act for seeing that the local authority do their duty. I must say I had not thought that noble Lords on those Benches would have wanted an appeal from the local authority's determination, because the machinery has always been laid down in the Acts which give them their powers.
With regard to the point of the apportionment between the various parties concerned, there is, as my letter says, an appeal, but you cannot go behind the determination of the local authority. Again, I think that that position is perfectly clear and I hope that my explanation will convince your Lordships that this point is not the sort of point that ought to lead to an adjournment of the debate; that the position is clear and the reasons for the approval which the Government gave to the clause of the noble Lord, Lord Meston, are obvious. Therefore I hope that your Lordships will not agree to the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore.
3.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack for courteously looking into this matter for me and writing me direct. I can assure him that we have no complaint against him whatsoever. We have no great complaint against the noble Earl, Lord Munster. But we do feel that what has emerged since the debate on the Report stage is that the Amendment which was granted to the noble Lord, Lord Meston, has put the landlord in a more favourable position in this particular regard than when the Bill emerged from another place. That is the fact. I agree that there is perhaps not so much difference in principle, but most certainly we should have divided upon the Amendment in the Report stage if that had been made quite clear to us, as I am sure the noble Earl would have intended it to be. If the Government are not willing to-day to adjourn, then all I can say is that we shall at once go to the Division Lobby on the Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Ogmore, in order to register our view.
LORD LLOYD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount one question? Am I to understand that the attitude of the Opposition is not to decide on what is fair and right as between landlord and tenant, but that in any case where the landlord is slightly better off, it is to be opposed by the Opposition?
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, we in this House have been hoping for the last few weeks to try to get some Amendment in favour of the tenants, who are much more in need of protection from this House than are the other class. That is how I should have thought the noble Lord would look at it. Certainly this is an improvement from the landlords' point of view If that had been made clear to us we should certainly have divided upon it, because we were being given nothing by Her Majesty's Government in favour of the tenants.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I do not want to say anything about the merits of this matter. I only want to say one word about procedure in regard to the complaint made by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, that there was not an opportunity, or adequate opportunity, to put down an Amendment, and his Amendment to ask the House—who have assembled here, on notice, to dispose of this measure—to adjourn. That is a very unusual course. In all the years that I have been in the House I do not think I recall the taking of such a course. That is not to say that it is not perfectly in order to propose it, and, if there were a good reason, then I have no doubt the House would assent to it.
I should like to say—I say it only because I think that although we, in this House, have not many rules of procedure we must adhere to them strictly—that it has always been the rule of this House (it is laid down in Standing Orders) that there cannot be a Manuscript Amendment on Third Reading. I well remember that once, when I was leading the House, an Amendment, which the whole House would have wished to make and which was for the general convenience, cropped up in debate. Lord Salisbury, the father of the late Leader of the House, said that while that Amendment was something which, no doubt, would be for
22
the convenience of the House, yet we must not transgress the rules; and the Bill went through without that desirable Amendment.
I say this for future use. I do not think that the noble Lord has any ground for complaint. After all, he knew there can be an Amendment on Third Reading. It does not happen in another place. There, once a Bill passes through the Committee and the Report stages you have lost your last chance of amending it. We take the most unusual course here—it is a rather sensible one in the final reviewing Chamber—that, if occasion arises, we can move an Amendment on Third Reading, but that Amendment must, I think quite rightly, he put on the Marshalled List. It is common knowledge and common practice that if anyone is in any doubt, or thinks he may want to raise a matter on an Amendment on Third Reading, he can put down an Amendment, of which notice can be given at any time after the Report stage of the Bill. Noble Lords heard what the noble Earl, Lord Munster, said and what the Lord Chancellor said. The proper course, if there were any question, would have been to put down some Amendment which would have come up and could then have been answered and voted upon.
I say this only because I do not think the House should be under any idea that either side has unexpectedly been taken by surprise over this business. This matter was fairly fully discussed and an explanation has been given. There has been in the past few days, before the Third Reading, ample opportunity to put down an Amendment which could have been moved aria discussed in order to elucidate the position. I do not know what the Government are going to do, but I think it would be an unfortunate precedent if the House were asked to adjourn this matter.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I do not want to delay the House. I would only say to the noble Earl, Lori Swinton, that the major surprise came to us when we received Lord Munster's letter. We were not surprised at anything which happened during the debate; it was what came later.
On Question. Whether the debate shall be adjourned?
Resolved in the negative and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
Bill read 3ª, with the Amendments.
Clause 17 [Provisions to facilitate exchange of controlled dwellings]:
LORD OGMORE LORD OGMORE moved to add to subsection (2):
"Provided that if the landlord or any superior landlord refuses to be a party to such agreement the tenant may apply to the county court and the court may make such order in relation to such application as it may in all the circumstances consider to be proper."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that I moved an Amendment to this effect on the Committee stage of the Bill. Clause 17 provides for the facilitation of exchange of controlled dwellings; that is to say, where the tenants of two controlled dwellings, for reasons which seem good to them, decide to exchange their premises this may be effected, with the consent of the landlords and the superior landlords concerned. On the Committee stage everybody agreed that this was a perfectly sensible and reasonable thing to do. I said that if one of the landlords, or the
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 17; Not-Contents. 65.

CONTENTS

Attlee, E.

Archibald, L.

Lawson, L.

Listowel, E.

Chorley, L.

Ogmore, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Faringdon, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Greenhill, L.

Shepherd, L.

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Haden-Guest, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Stansgate, V.

Latham, L.

Wise, L. [Teller.]

NOT-CONTENTS

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Furness, V.

Grantchester, L.

Goschen, V.

Gridley, L.

Home, E. (L. President.)

Hailsham, V.

Hacking, L.

Hereford, V.

Hampton, L.

Lansdowne, M.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Hawke, L.

Reading, M.

Stonehaven, V.

Jessel, L.

Salisbury, M.

Templewood, V.

Leconfield, L.

Tenby, V.

Lloyd, L.

Albemarle, E.

Luke, L.

Beauchamp, E.

Addington, L.

Lyle of Westbourne, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Barnby, L.

Mancroft, L.

Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

Birdwood, L.

Merthyr, L.

Gosford, E.

Cawley, L.

Meston, L.

Howe, E.

Chesham, L.

Monson, L.

Limerick, E.

Conesford, L.

Newall, L.

Munster, E.

Cottesloe, L.

Rathcavan, L.

Onslow, E.[Teller.]

Craigmyle, L.

Remnant, L.

Radnor, E.

Croft, L.

St. Levan, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Dynevor, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Swinton, E.

Ennisdale, L.

Salter, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Saltoun, L.

Gifford, L.

Waleran, L.

Crookshank, V.

Gisborough, L.

Wolverton, L.

Devonport, V.

superior landlords, did not agree to a proposed exchange, perhaps for some frivolous reason which should not be taken into account, or because he was merely being absolutely obstinate, the result would be that the whole plan, which might be very desirable and acceptable, would fall to the ground. I therefore proposed this Amendment which said that where the objection was frivolous or obstinate there should be a right of appeal to the county court and that the county court, having taken all the circumstances of the case into account, could then pronounce upon it and deal with it as it thought proper.
Here again, by one of those little circumstances which seem to crop up on the Rent Bill, we were not told by the Report stage of the view of Her Majesty's Government on this proposal. The Amendment had earlier been withdrawn by me, on the Committee stage, on the understanding that Her Majesty's Government would let us know their view by the Report stage. As they did not do so, I was not able to put down the Amendment for consideration by your Lordships

25
on the Report stage. I mentioned the matter on the Report stage on the Motion that the Report be received, and I then said that if Her Majesty's Government could not agree to the very reasonable proposal that I had made I should put the Amendment down on the Third Reading and, if necessary, divide the House upon it. That is what I have done. And we have put it down, I would stress, because your Lordships have not had a chance of giving your opinion on this particular proposal. It was withdrawn during the Committee stage, and I was not able to put it down on Report. Now it comes up for the consideration of your Lordships really for the first time. I think your Lordships could well decide to give it your approval, irrespective of what the Government may say. After all, this House is not a rubber stamp—at least, it should not be—and it is for us to consider these matters, whether the Government are in favour of them or not, on their merits.
This proposal received considerable support from the Benches opposite during the Committee stage. Both the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye and the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, supported me upon it. Perhaps they did not go all the way, but they said that the case which I had made out was a reasonable one. They did not actually use those words, but that was the effect of what they said. And they intimated that they thought the Government ought to try to meet me on this point. It is, I submit, a reasonable case. Why should a bargain or arrangement, made, say, by two tenants to exchange their houses, an arrangement which is supported, perhaps, by two landlords and one superior landlord, fall down because the other superior landlord (perhaps for reasons of his own which have no connection with the merits of the case) refuses to be a party to the agreement. We are not saying that in these circumstances the plan must be carried out. All we are saying is that the matter should go to the county court, if the tenants concerned so desire, and that the county court judge should arbitrate between the parties.
If I may say so, I think this is a very sensible Amendment and, as I say, it has already received a certain amount of support from your Lordships' Benches opposite. I would therefore ask your
26
Lordships to support me in this Amendment to-day. I feel that it will be a very practicable provision to have in the Bill. I can foresee many cases where it may he desirable for tenants to effect an exchange. For example, there may be two people who are getting a little elderly, and who have a big house which They would' like to exchange for a smaller one. And they may know people with a family in a small house who would like to get into a larger one. This Amendment does not affect control at all. If accepted, it would simply mean that in the circumstances which I have mentioned the two parties, with the consents provided for in the Bill, would be able to exchange their homes. I suggest that the Amendment is one which carries out the intentions of the clause and will probably have quite a good effect in a number of cases. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 24, at end insert the said (Lord Ogmore.)
3.54 p.m.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I feel sure that the House will recall that on the Committee stage of this Bill your Lordships agreed to insert what is now Clause 17 in the Bill—a clause which deals with provisions to facilitate the exchange of controlled dwellings. During the passage of the Bill through another place two Amendments were moved to deal with precisely the same matter which Clause 17 deals with at the present time. There was, however, one important exception: one of the new clauses which was put down for discussion contained a proviso similar to that which has been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, this afternoon; the other omitted the proviso altogether. My right honourable friend the Minister of Housing was anxious—and I think said so—to meet the case which had been made during the Committee stage in another place, and I accordingly introduced the clause on an earlier stage of our discussions, but without the proviso which the noble Lord now seeks to insert.
On the Committee stage, my noble and learned friend who sits on the Woolsack, while not giving any promise, agreed to consult with my right honourable friend about that Amendment; and that, indeed, he has done. The Amendment required

27
some consideration and I think it was only natural to assume that if I or my noble and learned friend who sits on the Woolsack made no mention of it on the Report stage, it was an indication that my right honourable friend and the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack were considering this matter with some care.
The basic argument against the proposal of Lord Ogmore is, as your Lordships will clearly understand, that it is completely at variance with one of the major objects of the Government's, policy on decontrol. Under Clause 11 (2) (c) of the Bill, provision is made for houses to be decontrolled when they become vacant. To compel a landlord through the county court to agree to the assignment of a statutory tenancy when otherwise the house to be vacated would become decontrolled would, in fact, be in conflict with the whole of the Government's policy which we have outlined during the course of the passage of the Bill. I maintain (I do not for one moment expect that Lord Ogmore will agree with me) that it would be manifestly unfair to expose landlords to the desire of a tenant whose occupancy of the house is not at issue to see that some stranger steps into his shoes when he vacates the house. My right honourable friend can see no objection whatsoever to the voluntary assignment of statutory tenancies, but he could not agree to the introduction of any element of compulsion. While, therefore, I appreciate what the noble Lord has in mind, I must advise the House to refuse to accept this Amendment.
It is true, as stated by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, that during the Committee stage my two noble friends behind Inc, Lord Balfour of Inchrye and Lord Ridley, endeavoured to suggest that a compromise might be found in conferring jurisdiction on the court to determine whether a landlord's consent had been
unreasonably withheld. That my right honourable friend considered in some detail. But he found—and I think he was right—that in substance that suggestion was very little different from the principle of the present Amendment which has been moved by Lord Ogmore. In fact, in the proposal of the noble Lord the element of compulsion is still present, and my right honourable friend believes it would be very difficult indeed for the court, against the background of the provision in Clause 11 (2), for decontrol on vacant possession, to decide in what circumstances the landlord's consent was being unreasonably withheld. I do not see how a court could take the view that a landlord was acting unreasonably in refusing his consent to the assignment of a statutory tenancy because he wanted to let his house at a free rent to a tenant of his own choosing. In these circumstances, while I appreciate the point which the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has made, I must advise your Lordships to refuse to accept this Amendment or to insert any other similar provisions in the Bill.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Earl has taken this view, because I think that this is a very reasonable point. After all, the Government themselves have agreed to the provision of an exchange of controlled tenancies, and to some extent that is itself a reduction from the principle of the Bill—freedom from controlled tenancies. All we seek to do by this Amendment is to try to facilitate what the Government had in mind to do, where there is one obstinate person who refuses to agree. I regret that the noble Earl did not accept this reasonable Amendment, and therefore I must ask your Lordships to divide.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 17; Not-Contents, 60.

CONTENTS

Attlee, E.

Archibald, L.

Lawson, L.

Listowel, E.

Chorley, L.

Ogmore, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Faringdon, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Greenhill, L.

Shepherd, L.

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Haden-Guest, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Stansgate, V.

Latham, L.

Wise, L.[Teller.]

NOT-CONTENTS

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Goschen, V.

Hawke, L.

Hailsham, V.

Hayter, L.

Home, E. (L. President.)

Hereford, V.

Jessel, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Leconfield, L.

Lansdowne, M.

Stonehaven, V.

Lloyd, L.

Reading, M.

Luke, L.

Salisbury, M.

Addington, L.

Mancroft, L.

Barnby, L.

Merthyr, L.

Albemarle, E.

Birdwood, L.

Meston, L.

Beauchamp, E.

Cawley, L.

Milverton, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Chesham, L.

Monson, L.

Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

Conesford, L.

Newall, L.

Gosford, E.

Cottesloe, L.

Rathcavan, L.

Limerick, E.

Craigmyle, L.

Rea, L.

Munster, E.

Croft, L.

Remnant, L.

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Dynevor, L.

Rochdale, L.

Radnor, E.

Ennisdale, L.

St. Levan, L.

Swinton, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Gifford, L.

Saltoun, L.

Glyn, L.

Waleran, L.

Crookshank, V.

Grantchester, L.

Wolverton, L.

Furness, V.

Gridley, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19 [Jurisdiction of county court or sheriff, and procedure]:
4.9 p.m.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, this Amendment applies the provisions of subsection (4) of Clause 19 to apportionments made by the court, or in Scotland by the sheriff, under the proviso to subsection (2) of Clause 18, which was moved into the Bill at Report stage. Subsection (4) of Clause 19 provides that apportionments of rates, gross value or rateable value made by the court, or by the sheriff, for the purposes of the Bill are to be final and conclusive. There is precedent for this in the 1920 Act as well as more recently in the English and Scottish Acts of 1954. It would he unreasonable if such matters were taken to higher courts, on appeal, and the same is true of the apportionment of the cost of roadworks under subsection (2) of Clause 18 where more than one person benefits from the work. Your Lordships have already discussed this last point. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 26, after ("Act") insert ("and any apportionment made by the court or sheriff under the proviso to subsection (2) of the foregoing section").—(The Earl of Munster.)
Clause 25 [Interpretation]:
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, the next Amendment is almost drafting. The definition of the Act of 1939 is unnecessary,
30
since there is no reference in the Bill to the Rent and Mortgage Restriction Act, 1939, as such. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, lice 14, leave out ("'the Act of 1939'").—(The Earl of Munster.)
Sixth Schedule [Minor and consequential amendments and application of enactments].
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, this Amendment to the Sixth Schedule is solely drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line 36, leave out ("Act of") and insert ("Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act,").—(The Earl of Munster.)
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(The Earl of Munster.)
4.13 p.m.
VISCOTTM ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, this is the last day of discussion on this Bill, which has now passed its Third Reading. The Opposition have not been able to get any Amendments accepted on behalf of the tenants who are so cruelly treated by this new piece of legislation. It is obvious that right throughout the country feeling is rising against this Bill—I think that is quite clear from the results of the local municipal and urban district elections. The noble Earl, Lord Munster,

31
was very confident the other day that the recent elections in the big towns were all in favour of the Conservatives; but I can assure him that that is not so, and that over the country hundreds of seats, net, have been gained for Labour in elections which have been fought largely on this Bill.
It really is, as I said in a previous debate, an iniquitous Bill. It is not that we feel there is no need for revision of legislation concerning rents—of course, there is need for that—but that this is a piece of legislation which provides for revision in such a way that security of tenure is gone for the great mass of tenants covered by the Bill; that it will lead to substantial increases of rent, especially in respect of the houses which are to be decontrolled, and often to quite considerable rises in the houses remaining under control, which are, of course, subject to conditions as to the amenities and the general state of repair of the premises. The Bill, taken as a whole, is one of the most disastrous measures for the people concerned that has ever been introduced; and wherever I go, and to whomsoever I talk, I find that it has gained for itself the most unpopular reputation. If one wanted to choose a vantage ground for fighting a political action upon it, then one would welcome the Bill. But when you consider what is going to be the result in hundreds of thousands of individual cases, then I feel it is necessary for us to do just the opposite and to say that we very much regret that the Government have seen fit to go forward to this position to-day.
Moreover, we feel that, before this Bill leaves this House, we ought to point out that there is really no mandate from the country for it. I want to put on record in the OFFICIAL REPORT Of the House the facts about that. In the 1955 General Election, Mr. Aneurin Bevan, speaking at Huddersfield on May 10, said—and I quote from The Times of May 11, 1955—
"There are 5 to 6 million rent-controlled houses in Britain and I prophesy all these rents will be increased if the Conservatives return."
Two days later, the Conservative Central Office issued a denial in their Daily Note stating:
"This is reminiscent of an earlier canard of Mr. Hugh Dalton, who said at the Margate Conference on 2nd October, 1951, that a general permission to raise rents everywhere was what the Conservatives wanted."
32
and they went on to say that there was no more truth in the reports circulated by Mr. Bevan than there was in Mr. Dalton's insinuation of October, 1951. So it is not surprising that I am receiving almost by every post protests that the Government are passing this Bill into law without any mandate whatsoever from the country. I had a communication three or four days ago from a man who lives at Enfield, who obviously is not a member of my Party. He says:
"The present Government have not received a mandate for the new Rent Bill. The Government cringe in the shadow of a majority that was obtained under false pretences. This new Rent Bill, whilst giving millions of pounds to rent racketeers, housing spivs and wealthy landlords, will deal a mortal blow to many people with fixed incomes whose only crime is that they voted for a Party that pledged itself to keep down the cost of living."
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: May I ask the noble Viscount whom he thinks that man supports? I have had innumerable postcards, but not that one.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I must say that he gives me no indication at all that he is a member of any Party. I have his name and address here, but I have never heard of the man before. I should be glad to show the card to the noble Earl, in confidence. As I say, there is no indication on it that he is a member of my Party. However, if that is the situation, let me take a more up-to-date case than that postcard received a few days ago. I have here a telegram from Hornsey. I hope that the noble Earl has had it.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: Yes.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Then I think the best thing than can happen for the Government is to put this on record in Hansard. This telegram is from the Hornsey Tenants Anti-Rent Bill Association. It is sent by Mr. Sterne, the honorary secretary (he may be listening because he has visited the House to-day), who assures me that he is a non-Party man and has never been a member of any political Party. The telegram says:
"The Committee of the Hornsey Tenants Anti-Rent Bill Association, while recognising the need for legislation to amend the Rent Act, consider that the Government Rent Bill does not fulfil the requirements of sound, humane and just legislation. We sincerely believe that the proper legislation should (a) safeguard the security of tenants while the

33
housing shortage lasts; (b) limit the extent to which rents can be increased; (c) relate rent rises more closely to condition, repairs and maintenance and (d) retain Rent Tribunal. We therefore ask the Government at this late stage to withdraw the Bill, or to amend it in such a way that the above requiremens are fulfilled. The Hornsey Tenants Anti-Rent Bill Association is a non-Party organisation of tenants and residents in the Borough of Hornsey representing approximately 700 members. We are submitting to-day 3,000 signatures to our petition against this Bill. It is being presented to the Minister of Housing, the right honourable Mr. H. Brooke, M.P. (Signed) H. Sterne."
In case there is any dubiety about that, as the Hornsey tenants feel that they have no Member of Parliament to whom to present their petition and they want people to know that it has been presented, they have asked me to mention that have it here before Mr. Sterne delivers it to the Minister of Housing and Local Government. It will be presented to him to-day. There are over 3,000 signatures to the petition, and thousands more could have been obtained if there had been art earlier organisation of sufficient people to collect the signatures. This is not something which demands the scorn of the noble Earl in charge of the Bill, and who has not seen fit to remain to hear what I have to say about it. But it has got to be said.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am sorry my noble friend did not have a chance to mention it to the noble Viscount. My noble friend is, as the noble Viscount knows, an Officer of an Association connected with Parliament, and he has to go and to leave the reply to me. May I express his sincere apologies and say that the last thing he wanted was to be discourteous to the noble Viscount.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I am obliged. I am quite sure that, if he had thought of it, he would have passed me a card across the Table. I did not know what his engagement was.
It is notable that of the 190,000 houses which are to be decontrolled in the London area alone, a great many of them are flats and similar dwellings which are already subject to high tents, and which are likely to be re-let at double the present rents—and more. A few days ago I had a letter from a lady writing from an address in Battersea Park, in which she gives examples in the tier of
34
flats in which she has had a tenancy for many years. She is now a very old lady. The ground floor flat in one block has already had its rent raised on change of tenants from £200 per annum to £365. It is assumed that in that block, in the next rearrangements, there will certainly be an average increase of double—from £200 to £400. I have been talking to a policeman friend who lives in a lat. He is proud of his flat, and proud of having been able to save enough money to go into a flat in which he would like his family to be brought up. It costs him £2 10s. 6d. a week. He has no idea what it is going to cost him in future. All he knows is that he cannot afford to pay it. That is just one kind of example, which can be multiplied by the thousands and hundreds of thousands throughout the country.
It is true that in some cases the Government's lengthening of the period of hiatus from six to twelve or fifteen months will give a little more time for tenants to look around; bit I am quite sure, from the reports that are coming in, that in the meantime there will be all kinds of attempts to get them out for other reasons, so that they are becoming very fearful indeed. It is not every block of tenants who will have either the knowledge or the courage to take legal action when they have their rights abused. It is significant that the Minister of Housing in another place has had to say that he hopes that landlords will take note of what has been said, and at least will not be guilty of the practices which have been reported to him. I hope, with the Minister, that that will be so; on the other hand, I am quite sure that there will be large numbers of instances where people will be frightened out of their tenancies at the present time.
Now it is argued by some that this new piece of legislation will be all right because, for the first time, there is likely soon to be an equilibrium in the housing provisions. I read that in the speech of Mr. Enoch Powell, Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing, when he said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 560, col. 1760]:
"…we are now within sight of, and should in 12 months' time or so be level with, an equation of the overall supply and demand for homes."
Anybody who goes and speaks for only a few minutes to the housing experts of

35
our local authorities will see the present situation of local authority housing: the huge lists still remaining to be dealt with, the warnings that have had to be issued that it is quite impossible, in present financial circumstances, to go on building at the same rate as they have been doing, especially in view of the credit squeeze, and the increased costs of the housing loans and of the general burden upon local authorities and ratepayers.
You may depend upon it that when this new Act (as it will be as soon as it has received the Royal Assent) is put into operation, there will be hundreds and thousands of tragic cases, because there will not be anywhere for thousands of these people to go, unless they crowd in to the already overcrowded houses, tenements, flats and the like. It really is a most shameful measure. That is my view of the situation, and I do not hesitate for a moment to say that I completely agree with what Mr. Godfrey Nicholson, Member of Parliament for Farnham, said, or part of what he said, in another place. Having first said that he would vote for the Bill, he added,
"but with shame, embarrassment and reluctance."
That must be the feeling of a very considerable proportion of those who, from the Conservative angle, have to see the sufferings of the electorate. I hope that in Hornsey and East Ham this week there will be a still further demonstration to the Government—and there have been a good many already—that their policy is not only foolish but exceedingly unfair and unjust to the people concerned.
4.31 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I think your Lordships will agree, however much you may disagree with us in other respects, that it is always easier for a Government to make concessions over a controversial measure of this kind—and no one will deny that this is a controversial measure or that the echo of controversy has even disturbed the usually placid atmosphere of your Lordships' House—in this place than it is during its passage through another place. I had therefore hoped that here, where the acerbity of Party strife is not as marked, the opportunity would be taken to improve and alter this measure in the light of the discussions that have
36
taken place during its successive stages. Therefore, I regret very much indeed that the Government have not altered this Bill during its passage through this House so as to mitigate the hardship it will cause, as my noble friend the Leader has just pointed out, to many thousands of households.
We worked very hard during the Committee and Report stages of the Bill, but no Amendment of substance was accepted from this side of the House and no effort has been made on the part of the Government to meet our criticisms. What we object to is not the principle of decontrol, which in the abstract is perfectly harmless. There could be no harm in decontrol if there were sufficient houses available for everyone at reasonable rents. Control was introduced after the First World War because of the housing shortage, and that position continues. We object to the application of this principle of decontrol at a time when there is still, as there was after the First World War and as there has been ever since—between the wars, during the last war and at the present time—an acute housing shortage in the country. This will cause very great hardship indeed to many tenants who cannot afford to pay the higher rent which will be payable for decontrolled premises. They will not be able to find near their present homes alternative accommodation which they must look for, at anything like the rents they are now paying.
If the Government are determined to proceed with decontrol without waiting for new building to catch up with the housing shortage, which we think is a very foolish step to take, they could at least have mitigated in two different ways the hardships to tenants who will be decontrolled. They could have extended the powers of rent tribunals so as to give them jurisdiction in rent disputes arising out of decontrol. There is no reason why a rent tribunal should not decide what is a reasonable rent when the landlord and the tenant disagree. This surely would have been an invaluable check on the landlord who wanted to charge an excessive rent. Or, if they were not prepared to have these matters referred to an impartial tribunal, a rent tribunal or possibly even a county court with extended powers, alternatively, as we suggested in several Amendments that

37
we tabled during the Committee and Report stages, they could have raised the rateable value from which decontrol will start. This would have retained under control, for the time being at least, a large number of houses in the lower range of rateable values. This would, in particular, have exempted many flats and houses London and other great cities where the housing problem, as everyone will adroit, is most difficult of all.
But the Government chose neither of those equitable courses. They have kept this substantially what it was when it reached us from another place. The Minister himself has said that the Bill could be either—I quote his words—"a triumph or a disaster", according to the behaviour of landlords. Everyone hopes that landlords will behave in a responsible way. But, of course, landlords, like the rest of us, are a mixed bunch. Some will behave well, some less well and others badly. There are well-to-do landlords and there are poor landlords, and obviously the temptation to squeeze tenants and to divert the higher rent from its proper purpose will be strongest in the case of the landlord of less means. The shocking defect of this Bill, as we see it, is that it puts the decontrolled tenant entirely at the mercy of the harsh or greedy landlord. It has been said that we on this side of the House take the side of the tenants, whereas noble Lords on that side of the House take the side of the landlords. I think that both these views are equally wrong. We all want fair dealing between landlords and tenants. What we do not want and what we believe this Bill does is to put the tenant at an unfair disadvantage in relation to the landlord.
I should like to read your Lordships an extract from a letter written by an old lady who lives by letting her rooms for a short period in the year, which must be typical of thousands of pensioners and other persons living on fixed incomes whose homes will be threatened and whose security will be jeopardised when this Bid becomes law. This old lady says:
"I am one of thousands who are going to suffer untold misery by this wicked Bill. It is no use you writing and saying you all think that our fears are exaggerated when we know our landlords. My landlord has already hinted to me I shall be out. I have rented this house since 1940 and my landlord has never once
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been to see to any repair. I have spent all my money on keeping property in good repair and decoration. I am 54 years of age and have never been able to save money for a home. I have to look after an invalid sister and my only source of income is from a few visitors for about ten weeks in the summer. We sleep in a cupboard made into a bedroom so we can take a few visitors in our three bedrooms. I have spent all my money on beds and bed linen and china and I have got regular people who have come for seven or eight years but se have to live all the winter. I pay 35s. rent now. This house is central and it can be let furnished at £20 a week in the summer so of course my landlord does not want me There are three old ladies next door the same as me, and next door an elderly couple who are so worried they are on the verge of suicide and I am sure I and my sister are to…. Cannot any of you realise how dreadful it is to have the fear of eviction when you are over fifty years of age? Could not you possibly put an Amendment so landlords cannot turn us out? We would all try and pay a little more rent. Do you realise that on an average my income is only £5 a week all the year round so how can we save? Before you have a mass of suicides on your consciences, please consider before you pass this dreadful Bill…. Please do not publish my name and address as I do not want my landlord or my friends to know how upset and worried I am about the future."
It is this lack of the human touch in the present Bill which we deplore. We feel that there is a lack of imaginative understanding of the difficulties of many small people. I am not going to say anything more, because I think that that one letter is typical of the feelings of many inarticulate people who perhaps have not written letters to Members of your Lordships' House but who, if they could have expressed themselves, would have written in the same vein.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, the noble Earl who has just sat down has stated that people on this side of the House are all in favour of the landlords and people on the other side are in favour of the tenants.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I know the noble Lord does not want to misrepresent me. I said quite distinctly—I shall be within the memory of noble Lords on both sides of the House—that I thought it was an entirely wrong view to say that noble Lords opposite were on the side of the landlords or that noble Lords on this side of the House were on the side of the tenants.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I beg the noble Earl's pardon unreservedly. I did mishear him. I hope, then, that I

39
have misheard a great many other observations from noble Lords opposite during the passage of this Bill. But I should like to say this: that I know of a man living not very far from Hornsey who tells me that he and his wife and three children of both sexes are living in one room; that the local authority inform him that none of the houses for which he has applied and which are vacant can be given to him, and that there is no prospect of giving any one of them to him because they are all needed to re-house people from slum clearance areas. If, when it goes through, this Bill does anything to prevent the steady and relentless increase of slums in our country, then I think it deserves less of the language that we have heard from noble Lords opposite.
4.41 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, I should like to endorse the protest which my noble friends have made against this Bill. The noble Earl, Lord Munster, in introducing the Third Reading this afternoon, said, "The case for this Bill is quite overwhelming." I am pretty certain in my own mind that that is entirely wrong. There is no case for this Bill in its present form. The Bill is a bad one. It will throw tremendous burdens upon hundreds of thousands of tenants. Under the first stroke of the axe the figure of houses is 810,000, of which 560,000 are in the provinces—and I am concerned mainly with the case for the provinces. I greatly regret that the Government, in this particular instance, did not see fit to increase the limit of rateable value for decontrol from £30 to £40 so far as the provinces were concerned. To a large extent, that would have eased the situation for people living in the cities and in the country towns. The London limit is £40; the Scottish limit is £40. I had hoped that at any rate the Government would have made some slight concession in regard to the rateable value for the provinces and brought it into line with London and Scotland.
The noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack tried to make a case for this particular Bill on the percentage basis of the houses which would be affected on the passing of the Bill into law. The percentage that he used, both in regard to London and the provinces,
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was about 25 per cent. or one-quarter of the houses which are at present controlled. But it still means that there are practically 5 million houses which will remain controlled but which, under this Bill, may become decontrolled in the future by an order made by the Minister of Housing and Local Government. That is a tremendous power to put in the hands of a Minister and we may find in the course of time that we have a Minister of Housing who will exercise that power. By one act of the Minister, the remaining 5 million, or practically 5 million, houses will be decontrolled, and the burden of additional rents will be thrown upon them.
It has been stated in regard to the present Bill that the occupants of those houses which are not yet decontrolled will have to bear additional rents to the tune of about £100 million or just over. What will be the total amount of the additional rent which will have to be paid 'by the householders in regard to houses which become decontrolled I do not think anybody can possibly indicate; but I think it will certainly be much more than £100 million. It has been said for this Bill that when it comes into operation it will free houses to let; that people will move out of houses; that owners of houses will move out of their own houses and be prepared to let them at economic rents. I do not believe that for one moment. I think that when people leave their own houses, they will want to sell them if they are moving into other houses. Only yesterday I was going into a provincial city, and for about two miles before reaching that city, I counted at least twenty bungalows and houses which were up for sale. I think that is what will happen when houses become vacant under this Bill—that the owners will sell and will not be prepared to let.
I stand in the position of receiving some slight, or some possible, benefit under this Bill because I, amongst others, am the owner of a house which will be decontrolled. Various cases have been brought to the notice of noble Lords during the course of the discussion on this Bill. In this particular case—I want noble Lords to mark this well—the house which will become decontrolled has been occupied, probably for the last twenty years, at the old standard rent; and we have never increased the rent. The occupiers are old-age pensioners with a small

41
income. It is not possible for them, by reason of their income, in any case to claim National Assistance. Under this Bill, tremendous power is put into my hands as a landlord to increase their rent to a very great extent. I do not want that power. I believe, not in the rights of property, but in the rights of human beings, and I am thankful to say that in this particular case I shall not operate the Bill, or the Act as it will be, to the disadvantage of those particular tenants. I hope that there will be many landlords who will act in the same way. Nevertheless, the power given by this Bill to owners of property is such that I can foresee, in the two or three years which lie ahead of us, tremendous disturbances in the homes of Britain. The people, good folks all of them—or most of them—who are now to receive the whip of this particular Bill, do not deserve the conditions which will be imposed upon them. I am extremely sorry that the Bill is to be put upon the Statute Book. So far as my political experience goes, I never remember, either in this House or in another place, such a Bill coming before Parliament for consideration and approval.
4.50 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I have retained such remarks as I have to make until the end because we on this side had hoped that possibly some noble Lord on the other side would have addressed your Lordships on the principles and some of the provisions of this Bill; but, except for a short intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, no one has done so. First of all, we on this side feel, as my noble Leader Lord Alexendar of Hillsborough has said, that the Government had no mandate for this Bill. So far as we have been able to test, the various programmes which they put before the electorate never contained any indication that this Bill was to be presented in this Parliament; and any indications which have come to our notice were exactly the reverse. We would therefore urge, in fact we would challenge, Her Majesty's Government if they think this is a right and proper Bill and one which has the support of the electorate, to go to the electorate now and to have a General Election so as to test by the proper and democratic means whether their contention is sound. We feel that if they do
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not do that it will be because they are afraid to take a measure of this kind before the people of this country.
During the progress of this Bill through your Lordships' House, as my noble friend Lord Listowel has said, only one Amendment from this side has been agreed to—a comparatively minor one which, although we were glad to have it accepted by Her Majesty's Government, did not to any extent affect the main provisions of the Bill. Sitting here hour after hour putting forward Amendments which we felt had a good deal of merit and which were occasionally supported from the Back Benches on the other side, we could not help feeling that we were going through the motions of treading a treadmill; or, to use another metaphor, that so far as we were concerned this process was a rubber stamp and that whatever Amendments were moved and however reasonable, our case was, nothing could be done; that Her Majesty's Government would, in fact, take no notice whatsoever of our submissions. I am not saying that both the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack and the noble Earl, Lord Munster, did not deal very courteously with them, but that Her Majesty's Government did not alter the provisions of the Bill or change their minds with regard to the provisions.
The attitude of the Liberal Party on this Bill has also surprised us and caused us considerable dismay. We all have in our minds the great Liberal Party of the past. Some of us belonged to it in the past; some of us did not. But we all have in mind the very great contribution made to the social services of this country by the Liberal Government prior to the First World War. I am told by my noble Leader that last night, during the Hornsey electoral campaign, a prominent Liberal went on the platform and advised the Tories of Hornsey to vote for the Tory candidate. In view of the attitude of the Liberal Party on this Bill, we are not at all surprised at this, much as we regret it. It appears to us that on this matter, which, as my noble friend Lord Listowel has said, is a great human matter, the Liberal Party have gone right back to the days of Malthus and John Bright, far behind Mr. Gladstone and his later manifestations, and are not in the same street with Mr. Asquith, Mr. Lloyd George and Mr. Winston Churchill (as

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they then were) in that great Government from 1906 to 1914.
There is no doubt that this is a laissez faire, laisser aller Bill at its very worst. As my noble friend Lord Listowel has said, the main hardship will fall upon the people who are liable to be evicted. They will be affected by the decontrol provisions of the Bill affecting some 800,000 dwellings in the country as a whole and 180,000 in London. The letter which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, read to your Lordships was, I thought, a very moving one, one which, however laissez faire, laisser aller the sentiments of Her Majesty's Government may be, ought to give us pause; for I am quite sure that that letter expressed a fear which is in the hearts and minds of large numbers of people—sonic elderly people, some married men with families—who face eviction under this Bill.
Let us not cover it up by talking about the "free market" and "allowing landlords to exercise the rights which they ought to have under contract," and so on. What we have to face in this country is the probability of eviction. In my view (though I may be entirely wrong) it so happens that the main burden will fall in London and Greater London, for this reason: London, as we know, is not only the national capital but also a great Commonwealth and international centre; and to London come large numbers of people on official business or on private concerns. They are not in many cases much worried about what they may have to pay for accommodation. They are not making their homes here but are here only for a short period; and while they are here business firms or Governments pay for their accommodation. For that reason houses of a particular kind will be snapped up at enormous prices, as will be fiats. Huge premiums will be charged and enormous rents will be obtainable in certain areas of London and Greater London. I do not think our own people will have a chance of competing in this market for this accommodation. I am sure that that is particularly important and that it will have a great impact in this area for the reasons I have given.
What are these unfortunate people to do? Here is the tremendous impact of demand for accommodation in London and Greater London, with people who
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will pay very large sums for accommodation. How are elderly people or people with families to compete? We know that in many cases they appreciate that in modern times some increase in rent is desirable. Many tenants have spoken to me and have told me that they feel that it is also just. What they cannot contemplate with any equanimity is the chance that they may all be evicted because they cannot pay a vastly increased rent or put up the money to buy a house or flat.
Although we warned Her Majesty's Government of this possibility on the Report stage, they have made no provisions or arrangements to meet this situation. Most of these houses will be becoming vacant, or the tenants will be getting notice to quit, at about the same time; or they may do under the Bill. I cannot help feeling that we may be in for very serious trouble and that there may be great public disquiet at that time, as well as many cases of great human hardship and suffering.
In a short intervention the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, said something about slum clearance. I do not see the noble Lord here now. He thought this Bill would have some beneficial effect upon that. We on this side of the House cannot see that the Bill can have any effect at all upon slum clearance. In some cases it may create slums because a number of people who will be ejected or evicted from their houses or flats may have to go and live with relatives or friends. There may thus be serious overcrowding, and some of the conditions which cause slums may be created.
There is one other matter which I should like to mention. When we take leave of this Bill we shall, I suppose, send it to another place for consideration as regards Amendments, but this is to a large extent the last opportunity we shall have of dealing with it. The matter to which I wish to refer relates to the Constitutional issue. By Clause 11 (3), the Minister, as we know—it has been made clear in our debates—has enormous powers. He has terrifying powers. Under the Bill, he can, without any Amending Bill, simply by Affirmative Resolution to an order which cannot be amended, upset the whole of the rent system of this country. He can cause restrictions such as there still are to be lifted either over part or the whole of the country. Really he

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can do as he likes with the whole of the Rent Acts—with the whole subject with which we are concerned.
We feel that this power should not be in the hands of any Minister. We feel that on a subject such as rent, which, after all, affects the vast majority of the people of this country, any amendment should be made by legislation and not by an order which cannot be amended, made by the Minister concerned. We regret that an important Constitutional principle of this kind, raised in this House, did not have the consideration by your Lordships which we think it should have had. The only people who spoke on it were noble Lords on these Benches. Nothing, so far as I can recall, was said from the Benches opposite. This House, which is a Second Chamber, is particularly concerned, in my view, with Constitutional issues. I think the House should have dealt much more seriously with this one and that we should have had many more contributions from noble Lords opposite than we have had on this vital Constitutional point. I have nothing else to say except that we on this side of the House have very sad hearts, having regard to the prospect that this Bill, which we think will have such unfortunate consequences, is now to be unladen on the people of this country.
5.3 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, I had not intended to address your Lordships at this stage, but in view of what I think I may describe as the attack on noble Lords on these Benches from Lord Ogmore, which followed a similar line to that taken by the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, perhaps I may be allowed just one word. We consider that this Bill deals with an unpleasant and awkward situation; and in that sense it must be an awkward and unpleasant Bill. The matter is one which must he dealt with, and it is very difficult to deal with it. There is bound to be dislocation and, to sonic extent, hardship in all quarters. We also believe that those who are going to be victims will be far fewer in number than they would have been in the days referred to by Lord Ogmore. On the other side, there are many landlords who are really quite poor people, and who have been having a bad time, and they certainly deserve some alleviation of the conditions which have been adversely affecting them. As a Liberal Party, we
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feel that possibly the balance of injustice may be with the tenant, but it is not possible to lay that down in any dogmatic way. It takes a Bill such as this at least to try to put things right.
If I may say so with all humility, I feel a little sad that noble Lords should have quoted individual cases of hardship because they can very easily be quoted on both sides. Lord Wise quoted the example of a house which he owns and in respect of which he intends to act generously. I have been, until recently, the owner of a cottage which has cost me a certain amount in dealing with the roofs and walls, and in keeping it up generally; and the rent which I have been getting for it is one shilling per annum. I do not intend to put up the rent from one shilling to two shillings or to twenty shillings. I am sure that there are many other people in a similar position. Specific cases like that mean nothing. The position in general is what must be tackled. We, as a Liberal Party, when we learned that the Conservative Party were going to bring in a Bill of this sort, gave the matter very careful consideration. We decided that we were not going to be Socialist; that we were not going to be Conservative; but we hoped that we would continue to be Liberal. I do not understand why, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has told us, a prominent Liberal speaking at Hornsey, where there is no Liberal candidate, should have advised Conservatives to vote Conservative.
LORD OGMORE: I said advised Liberals to vote Conservative.
LORD REA: I understood the noble Lord to say that Conservatives were advised to vote Conservative. I thought perhaps he meant Liberals were advised. Of course, if there is a choice between Conservative and Labour we look to see which is the more Liberal; and he is "our man."
5.7 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I should not venture to occupy any substantial part of your Lordships' time, were it not that the noble Viscount who opened for the Opposition and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, both based part of their opposition on the timing of the Government's action. For that reason, I must, in the shortest time, just remind your

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Lordships—I hope it will not take more than a sentence or two—of the background of this Bill. The background commences with the fact that in the last five years under a Conservative Government over 1,500,000 houses have been built and the whole housing situation transformed by that achievement. Secondly, the programme of slum clearance is well under way. When these two things had happened, the time had come, in our view, to take steps to preserve the great national asset of existing houses by preventing them from falling into slumdom, and so making more houses available for people who want rented accommodation.
There are two points on the timing. One is when it was right in legislative form to review the Rent Acts. I do not think noble Lords could say very much about our being precipitate in that regard, because on October 6, 1950, Mr. Aneurin Bevan, who in my recollection was still Minister of Health in the Labour Government, said this:
"We all know that the Rent Restrictions Acts must be reviewed and at the earliest possible time we shall review them."
That was seven years ago, so even his colleagues of that date who are sitting on the Opposition Bench here, and who have spoken this afternoon, must surely agree that the earliest possible time would have been within the period of seven years—otherwise words have no meaning I now come to the second point—and this was a point specifically made by the noble Viscount who leads the Opposition. He said that no one who knew anything about housing conditions could suggest that accommodation in this country had come near the point when decontrol was justified. On November 30, 1953 Mr. Aneurin Bevan (I take the same gentleman again, because of his great experience as a Minister in the Labour Government), said this:
"Taking the country as a whole we are not very far away from the total accommodation which the nation requires."
That was said by Mr. Aneurin Bevan in November, 1953; and the noble Viscount will be glad to note that since that date, under a Conservative Government, no fewer than 1,044,000 houses have been built.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble and learned
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Viscount, because this issue seems to hinge on the amount of available alternative accommodation? Is the noble and learned Viscount maintaining that, in view of the new building, within fifteen months of the passing of this Bill, when the decontrolled tenants can be evicted, there will not be a serious housing shortage, at least in our great cities?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No, my Lords, I am saying that if Mr. Aneurin Bevan is right, there will not be a serious housing shortage, and that that fact ought to weigh with the noble Earl. He and Mr. Bevan served together for years. If he wants to say that Mr. Aneurin Bevan is wrong. I hope that he will get up and say so. Surely I am entitled to make the point, and to say that if that was the position on November 30, 1953, then, with all the steps that are being taken, there is a very good hope that, fifteen months after this Bill receives the Royal Assent, the position will be something, like what Mr. Aneurin Bevan said. I am prepared to hear the noble Earl demonstrate the falsity of Mr. Bevan's remarks, but I have no reason for assuming that he has not the degree of intelligence which his own colleague appears to think to-day. That is one aspect of the matter.
Much has been said about inability to pay rent. Again looking dispassionately at the background, a little more than half of the proportion of our national income is being paid on rents to-day than was paid in 1938. To-day, as a country, we are spending more on drink or on tobacco than we do on rent. The average industrial wage, if my memory is right, is between £11 and £12 a week. Surely, in that situation, there is something to come for those who for eighteen years, since the passing of the 1939 Rent Act, have been trying to maintain houses on rents which were, by all account and by every admission, uneconomic and an insufficient basis to preserve the houses in good condition. In these circumstances, there would be a distortion of our economy if there were not something to come in order to provide for the repair and preservation of the national asset of existing houses. I apologise for detaining your Lordships, but it would be unfortunate if a completely one-sided picture went out from the last debate on this Bill in your Lordships' House.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I say a word on this question of working class wages and what is being spent on commodities? I have no quarrel with the general argument, but a working man who smokes and drinks beer is paying for a large amount of debt arising out of the war, and when he has done that, he has very little left out of which to buy other things. If you say that the working man must not smoke or must not drink beer, then you have to find some other means of raising the taxation you must get in place of the taxes on tobacco and drink.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not think that the noble Viscount has done me justice. The argument I am making is that if, in an ordinary economy, viewed from any standpoint, be it Right, Left, Centre or anything you like, people are paying less on rent than on either drink or tobacco when the average industrial wage is nearly £600 a year, then that economy is distorted. We have not got our values right, and we are not taking the steps that are necessary to preserve existing houses. Somehow or other we have to get more money to keep houses in repair.
I was going to pass to the, next point—namely, the safeguards which this Bill contains. We have tried to secure that there will be safeguards to prevent a sudden or severe alteration in the way of life of those affected. It must be remembered that nobody need leave a house, or have his or her rent raised against his will, in less than fifteen months. It is only if the tenant agrees and enters into a new agreement at an earlier period, and if that agreement is for not less than three years, that decontrol can come into effect sooner. The houses remaining controlled will be six-sevenths of those within the control limits—that is, as the noble Lord, Lord Wise, said, approximately 5 million houses. Their tenants will have security of tenure, and three out of every four will have an upper rent limit of under £1 a week. These rents must be taken in the light of the figures I gave in the first part of my speech. There will be no premiums or key money. There will be compensation for improvements, and, for the first time in the history of our country, it will be illegal in any case to give notice of less than four weeks. All that is being done by the present Bill.
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I do not want to weary your Lordships with the Socialist alternative, but after what noble Lords have said about the fear of the absence of security of tenure, I think we ought to remember that their Party programme is to purchase, not 800,000 but all these houses, to hand them over to the local authorities, who give no security of tenure and who can put up the rents whenever they like—and this at the cost of £2,500 million for the houses, and anything up to as much again (I do not know the figure, but it is a very considerable one, put as high as that much again) for repairs, maintenance and necessary improvements. That is the policy of the Party which has criticised this Bill and that must inevitably mean either increased taxation, increased rents or increased rates, or—much more likely—increased taxes, rents and rates. That is the alternative—a single landlord in an area, and no security of tenure for anyone.
I now come to the other points made by noble Lords who have criticised the Bill. Noble Lords have doubted whether there will be an improvement in accommodation. We say that accommodation is being withheld because owners will not let houses unfurnished at controlled rents. At the moment, as one noble Lord said, they desire to sell. What we want to do is to create the desire to let unfurnished. At the moment, because rents are controlled, tenants who occupy more space than they need will not sub-let the space that they do not need. There have been endless inquiries as to over-accommodation, and that has been shown to be the fact. Therefore we say that it is necessary to make a pool of houses to let. If I may say so, the arguments throughout our debates have been well and forcibly developed by noble Lords on the Opposition Front Bench, but what I have been wondering is where this new army of people is to come from who make it impossible for the landlord to consider the existing tenant at a reasonable rent. I know that there are the housing lists. But the noble Lord, Lord Lathan, told us on Second Reading that, with regard to London, where they had a list of 165,000, 53,000 of them were serious cases, and the others were people who, quite naturally and humanly, wanted a better house. I am not deprecating the difficulties of the 53,000, but they are 53,000 in a population of (if I remember rightly the population of the London County Council area)

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something like 5 million people. Noble Lords have prophesied doom—and let me remind them, in a not too serious spirit that it was not a very healthy line of action when it was taken by Cassandra of old—but they have not really brought up any arguments to support it; and I have waited in vain for them to come.
That is the general position, and those are the circumstances against which we have brought in this Bill. At the moment there are 5¾ million houses in Great Britain let unfurnished at controlled rents; and the great majority of these rents are below a reasonable economic level on current values, however those values are assessed, whether we look at the value of money, the level of wages of commodity prices. Throughout out debates no one has denied that point Many of the rents, in fact, date right back to 1914; and not only are the levels wrong, but rents of similar houses are out of relation to each other. Those are the facts; they are undeniable and have never been denied in all this controversy With this tangle of out-of-date rents there runs the consequence that landlords have no incentive and no resources to keep property in good repair, or to let property which becomes vacant. Noble Lords who have spoken have these resources, but they know as well as I do that there are many landlords who are not so fortunate as they. Anyone who knows the north of England knows of the investment in bricks and mortar that took place among quite humble people in out fathers' time. They have not the resources for putting the houses right Those who are fortunate enough to be in a controlled house stay put, although their positions have changed; those who are not so lucky, many of them young married people, go on to the housing list, and until the Conservative policy produced that enormous increase in the rate of production of houses, they had a very grim prospect.
I am not again going through the methods by which the Bill deals with the
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various points; I have had to do that before your Lordships on a number of occasions. I want to make only this point. I entirely agree with the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, that to put labels on people, and to put labels on others who support them, is an unfortunate method of argument. I hope the noble Earl will agree with me that, broadly, the people of this country, whatever label may be applied, can be relied upon to act with good sense and humanity. The Government have incorporated in the Bill the best plans that they can to see that all are given a fair chance. I have no hesitation in saying that this Bill is one of the most important pieces of legislation which has passed through this House in recent years, and I do not think it will have such dire consequences, either socially or electorally, as have been suggested.
I was interested in what the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, said about the recent elections, and in the appeal for a General Election by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, would only warn them of this. In 1949, the Labour Party did five times as badly as we did at the last local elections—they lost something like 1,300 seats—but still they got hack with a majority of six. If we are in five times as favourable a position, should we have a General Election to-day we should still get back with a majority of thirty; and that would not help those noble Lords very much at the present time. I believe that, in the passage of time, this Bill will have widespread effects for the better in the housing of the people of this country. I should like to assume the mantle of Elijah for one moment, as so many have assumed it to-day, and to prophesy that in five or ten years' time, when we look back, we shall see that this Bill has been a major factor in the further improvement of the social conditions of our time.
On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

MAINTENANCE AGREEMENTS BILL
5.29 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill has passed through all its stages in another place, and it applies to England and Wales only. It seeks to carry out, though with some modifications, certain recommendations of the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce—should your Lordships wish to took up the relevant paragraphs they are Nos. 726 to 733. The Bill seeks to remove a few anomalies in the present law and, in particular, one or two unfortunate consequences of recent legal decisions. I want to make it quite plain that not for one moment am I questioning the correctness of those legal decisions; on the contrary, if I may respectfully say so, I am satisfied that they were perfectly correct in law. However, it does not follow from that that the results of these decisions are altogether as desirable as they might he in modern circumstances.
Again, I want to make it clear that the Bill deals only with agreements. It does not deal with promises, and it deals only with agreements which are in writing and not with verbal agreements. I contend that it succeeds in removing some small hardships which are felt on both sides—that is, by husbands and by wives. Mainly, the Bill arises from a decision of the courts in a case which I understand has become well known in legal circles, known as Bennett v. Bennett, 1952. The effect of that decision, briefly, was that agreements containing a covenant not to apply for maintenance, when made in contemplation of divorce proceedings, are wholly bad. The reason underlying that judgment is that those agreements are contrary to public policy and tend to oust the jurisdiction of the courts. Those reasons, of course, are not unfamiliar to students of the law.
As I have said before, the consequences of this decision may have been a little unfortunate. The first main object of this Bill is that if passed into law, it would validate the agreement, but not the undertaking contained in the agreement—on the part of a wife probably—not to go to
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court and seek redress. Thus, it reverses the decision in Bennett v. Bennett. The second main object of the Bill is to give a power to the courts—the High Court and the magistrates' courts—to vary very widely the financial terms of agreements upwards or downwards in the interest of either spouse where the agreement is considered by the court to be unjust in the light of changed circumstances.
Your Lordships will appreciate that very often proceedings arising from agreements may take place many years after the agreement was signed. This Bill is retrospective, and sometimes the House is a little suspicious of retrospective enactments. It does not, however, apply to agreements which are either superseded or have been rescinded. It is necessary, in my view, for this Bill to be retrospective, because the case of Bennett v. Bennett has invalidated some agreements which were thought to be valid when they were made and thus the wife, as it commonly is, has been put in an unfair position, and it would be wrong, in my view, to alter the legislation for future cases whilst leaving a ease of hardship in respect of agreements already made.
May I mention briefly one or two of the clauses? Subsection (1) of Clause 1 merely sets out to make quite plain the three kinds of agreement to which the Bill refers. Subsection (2) is the one which reverses and rescinds the decision in Bennett v. Bennett. I would ask your Lordships to note that this subsection affects agreements made before the Bennett decision. On the passing of the Bill—in future, that is—such an agreement will stand and be valid, but the clause in it which contains the undertaking not to apply to the court will not be valid. In this respect, I think it is fair to mention that the Bill does not follow the recommendations of the Royal Commission. They wanted the clause to be validated as well as the rest of the agreement, but I think there are good reasons here for not following the recommendations of the Royal Commission, which I think was not in a position, through no fault of theirs, to appreciate the true legal position. Under this clause the agreement can be enforced after the death of the husband, which I think the House will consider to be fair in the circumstances. But there is a safeguard.

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As your Lordships will see, there is a proviso in this subsection that not more than one-fifth of the estate has been distributed at the time, and the material date in that regard is the date of the passing of the Bill. It is also stated in paragraph (b) of subsection (2) that it will not be possible to recover accrued arrears.
I pass to subsection (3) of Clause 1. I think I ought to explain shortly the reason for this subsection. It arises out of a case called Tulip v. Tulip, 1951, which gave power to the wife to apply for a maintenance order even where the husband had been keeping up payments under an agreement, but did not give a power to the husband to apply for any reduction. So that case, whilst again, I say, no doubt entirely correct in law, created a one-sided position. It imposed, I submit, a hardship on the husband and, perhaps, rather too much benefit on the wife. Consequently, this subsection gives to the courts a power to vary an agreement. It does not apply to agreements made more than six months after a decree of divorce has been made absolute, so there is some limit on the time. The reason for that is that if the parties choose to enter into an agreement long after a divorce there is no reason why the court should have such a power to vary.
It gives a wide discretion to the court for the benefit of the spouses, but only where fresh circumstances have arisen and render a change desirable. It also does something that the Royal Commission did not recommend; it gives power to the court to make provision for a child, or more than one child, even if there is no mention of the child in an agreement. This subsection applies only where both the parties are resident in England, but it applies in that case if the agreement was made overseas.
Subsection (4) of Clause 1 imposes a restriction on the jurisdiction of magistrates' courts in this regard. Your Lordships will remember that the High Court and the magistrates' courts both have some jurisdiction under this Bill, but you will agree, I think, that it is right that some limit should be placed upon the jurisdiction of the lower court. Magistrates' courts can deal with these matters only if both parties are resident in England and if one party at least is resident in the petty sessional division of that
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magistrates' court. Thus the magistrates' courts will not have to deal with questions of domicile which, I may say, are rather notoriously difficult legal questions. Then, again, your Lordships will, I think, agree that it is right to impose the same financial limits upon the jurisdiction of the lower courts as they now enjoy—that is, the amount awarded may not be more than £5 per week to a wife or more than 30s. for each child. If more than that is desired or desirable, application will have to be made to the High Court. I need hardly mention subsection (5), but it is declaratory of the present law. It makes it quite clear—and I think it is necessary to have it in the Bill—that the jurisdiction conferred by other Acts is not affected by this Bill.
I pass to the only other clause in this small Bill, Clause 2. Subsection (1) enacts that, within a limited time after the death of one party to the agreement, provided that there is residence in England, the surviving party may apply to the High Court, not to the magistrates' court, to vary the agreement by making an increased payment out of the husband's estate. I think that that is of some little importance because, were it not for this clause, it would not be possible to do this after the death of the husband. I feel sure that there are several sets of circumstances in which it would be fair and just to give to the surviving spouse the right to apply to the court for assistance after the death of the other spouse. On the other hand there should be some limit. It should not be possible to do it years afterwards, and so the Bill imposes a time limit which I contend is reasonable. Subsection (2) protects executors of a deceased party's estate, and says that after six months they can distribute the estate without incurring any personal liability.
I do not pretend to have expounded the whole of this Bill; nor, I think, would your Lordships wish me to do so. I conclude, therefore, by making the assertion that this Bill, though a small one, contributes just a little to the improvement of the law in this somewhat intricate and difficult matter. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(Lord Merthyr.)
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, before the noble Lord technically sits down,

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would he explain one thing? I should like to understand it. As I understand his explanation of the Bill, a court has power to review the terms of an agreement only after a change of circumstances. Will the court have no power to review the terms of an agreement made before the process of divorce where the intolerable conduct of one party may have driven the other party into such an agreement? That is a question that I should like to ask the noble Lord. Could he answer it?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I wonder if your Lordships would bear with me for one moment. As I have a very important meeting to attend, I should like to ask your Lordships' indulgence to leave as soon as I have spoken. I should like to say that Her Majesty's Government entirely support this Bill. We are most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, for introducing it. We believe that it will, as he said, do a real service to the clarity of the law. I am sure that in due time your Lordships will be given the answer to the point raised by my noble friend Lord Saltoun. I should like to express my apologies to my noble and learned friend Lord Merriman that I shall not hear his speech, if he is going to speak. It is only a matter of urgent duty that calls me away.
House adjourned during pleasure and resumed by The EARL OF DROGHEDA.
LORD SALTOUN: Would the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, answer my question?
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, the noble Lord said, "Before the noble Lord technically sits down", and the trouble was that I had technically sat down. It is not easy to deal in a sentence with the question. It is true that the variation can be made only if there are changed circumstances. Of course, if the circumstances at the time of the application to the court are precisely the same as the circumstances which obtained when the agreement was made, then I conceive that
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it would not be right for the court to make any variation. But, of course, one must take those words literally. For example, if the value of money fell, I should say that that would be a change of circumstance. The noble Lord, I think, mentioned the behaviour of one of the parties. I am not quite so sure whether that would be a change of circumstances, but if the misbehaviour, or the behaviour, of one of the parties was a relevant factor I which the court ought to take into account, then I conceive that, provided the court decided that there had been a change of circumstances—and I think some types of behaviour might amount to a change of circumstances—it would have the power to vary an order.
LORD SALTOUN: If I may interrupt again, want to make quite clear the sort of thing I have known happen without an agreement. If the previous conduct of one of the parties to the application for a divorce towards the other had been so intolerable that it might he held to have driven that other party into a prejudicial agreement, would the court be empowered to review the terms of that agreement when the application for divorce carne up?
LORD MERTHYR: If I understand the noble Lord aright, I think the answer to that is "Yes", but if I am wrong about this, I will certainly try to find the right answer and let the noble Lord have it either later or at a later stage of this Bill.
LORD SALTOUN: I thank the noble Lord.
On Question, Bill read 2ª, and corn-mined to a Committee of the Whole House.

EAST HAM CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
House adjourned at twelve minutes before six o'clock.