Sitting of 19 March 1957

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PETITION

  Rent Bill
  Mr. Hastings: Mr. Speaker, I desire to present a petition signed by 6,400 residents and electors of the Borough of Barking in the County of Essex. The Petition reads as follows:
  To the House the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled: The Humble Petition of the residents and electors of the Constituency of Barking Sheweth:
  That severe hardship would follow to many electors if the Rent Bill now before Parliament became law.
  Wherefore your Petitioners pray that the said Rent Bill should not be proceeded with.
  And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, etc.
  To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EMPLOYMENT

    Coventry
    Miss Burtonasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the number of vacancies for men and women notified to the Coventry Employment Exchange in December and January were, respectively, 661 and 597; and if he will give the numbers for 6th February and for the latest convenient date in March.
    The Minister of Labour and National Service (Mr. fain Macleod): The figures for December and January were as stated by the hon. Member. The corresponding figures for 6th February and 6th March were 564 and 618, respectively.
    Miss Burton: While I am very glad that the number of vacancies has slightly increased, is the Minister aware that it
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    bears no resemblance to the numbers out of work, and could he give any general information in what categories those vacancies occur?
    Mr. Macleod: I think that Question No. 2 is more appropriate to those out of work. So far as categories are concerned, I have a list of them, and if the hon. Lady would like to put down a Question, I can circulate the details in the OFFICIAL REPORT; or I can let her know.
    Miss Burtonasked the Minister of Labour what were the unemployment figures in Coventry up to the latest convenient date in March; and what proportion this bears to the figure for February.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Two thousand and twenty-six males and 919 females were wholly unemployed on 11th March. The total of 2,945 showed a decrease of about 15 per cent. compared with 11th February. On 11th March the number of males and females registered as temporarily stopped was 2,994, compared with 74 on 11th February. The increase is due to a recent change in the guaranteed week provisions of the agreement between the two sides of the engineering industry, as a result of which workers on short time and previously not registered are now registering and able to receive unemployment benefit.
    Miss Burton: While being rather puzzled at but grateful for the length of that reply—because I asked purely for the unemployment figures—may I ask if the Minister is aware that the figures which I have for 11th March are 2,826 wholly unemployed? Could he tell the. House how he suggests that 2,826 workers should obtain work when we have only 618 vacancies?
    Mr. Macleod: The explanation of the length of the Answer, which is important, is that there has been a very welcome decrease of 15 per cent.—which, I am sure, the hon. Lady is delighted to see—in the number wholly unemployed, but if I gave a total figure the decrease would be obscured by a rise, which is purely because of a private agreement, which has now been recognised amongst the temporarily stopped. With regard to the question of how the unemployed fill the vacancies, I think one has to take into account, particularly in an area like

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    Coventry, not only the immediate vacancies but those in the surrounding districts.
    Miss Burton: That is another story.
    Mr. Macleod: And a very good one, too.
    Miss Burtonasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that an analysis of wholly unemployed males in Coventry for June, September and December shows that, of the respective totals, 2·6 per cent., 4·2 per cent., and 11·4 per cent. have been wholly unemployed for more than six months; and if he will give the percentage for the last quarterly figures.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The figures for June, September and December, 1956, were as stated by the hon. Member. The corresponding figure for 11th March, 1957. was 16·3 per cent.
    Miss Burton: Is the Minister aware that we are really very concerned at this increasing trend as regards those out of work for more than six months, and further, is he aware that the actual number, which I believe is 319, is more than double the number last quarter? Could he tell us how he suggests that this matter might be dealt with?
    Mr. Macleod: The hon. Lady's information is very good. The figure is indeed 319. The increase in percentage of those wholly unemployed is, of course. serious, but I hope that that is a situation which is steadily going to improve now, because, as the House will hear from other Answers I am giving today, there is a substantial improvement in recent figures which are not yet published both in a decrease in unemployment and in an upswing in vacancies.

    Abrasive Wheels (Accidents)
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Labour why the total number of bursts of abrasive wheels is listed on page 85 of the Chief Inspectors' Report for 1955 as being 184, whereas on page 268 it is listed as 110.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service (Mr. Robert Carr): The figure of 184 given on page 85 of the Chief Inspectors' Report is the total number of bursts of abrasive wheels, whether causing a
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    reportable accident or not. The figure of 110 given on page 268 refers to bursts not only of abrasive wheels but also of a variety of other revolving vessels and wheels, but includes only those bursts which did not result in a reportable accident. I appreciate that the form in which the figures are published may be misleading, and the question of changing it is being examined.
    Dr. Stross: I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for that reply. May I assure him that any criticism I might have had does not in any way detract from the fact that this is one of the most wonderful Reports ever coming into our hands, and due regard ought to be paid to that and compliments conveyed to those who wrote the Report so well?
    Mr. Carr: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much, and I will make sure that that is done.
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Labour what action is being taken to protect workers from the bursting of abrasive wheels and from other injuries sustained in their use.
    Mr. Carr: Factories using abrasive wheels take various safety measures, including proper storage and periodical examination, control of running speeds, appropriate mounting, provision of effective guards, protection flanges, goggles, and screens. The Factory Inspectorate advises as to the measures appropriate in particular cases, and up-to-date advice on all these matters will be published shortly. Draft regulations on the fencing of abrasive wheels have been published, and the practicability of making regulations an other matters is being examined.
    Dr. Stross: Is it not a fact that the Department has been advising on this matter for many years, and issued a pamphlet. I think, as far back as 1927, yet in these cases we find in the Report that a number of wheels were not guarded when they should have been, and in other cases the guards are made of brittle metal which breaks and does not contain the bursting wheel. May we have an assurance that real regard will be had to ensuring that the advice now being offered will be adhered to?
    Mr. Carr: Yes, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, this is a difficult subject, though there is much truth in what he

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    says. We are doing the best we can to solve the problem.
    Mr. Bence: When the hon. Gentleman goes into this matter, will he also raise the question of stock to which an abrasive wheel is applied while being held magnetically on a table, having particularly in mind the danger arising from breakdown in the magnet, the metal being caused to fly off and result in a serious accident? I myself have seen many accidents of that kind.
    Mr. Carr: I will make sure that that is taken into account.

    Engineering Workers, Wembley
    Mr. Russellasked the Minister of Labour the total number of engineering workers who were unemployed in the Wembley area at the latest available date; and the total number of vacancies for engineering workers at the same date.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The numbers of persons from the engineering and electrical goods industries registered as unemployed at the Wembley Employment Exchange at 11th March were 30 males and 14 females. The numbers of vacancies notified to the Wembley Employment Exchange by employers in those industries and remaining unfilled at 6th March were 149 for males and 94 for females.
    Mr. Russell: Would my right hon. Friend agree that there is not much danger of redundancy in the engineering industry in that area?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, indeed; the picture there is one of labour shortage.

    Clydebank
    Mr. Benceasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to find employment for the unemployed in the Burgh of Clydebank.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: New industrial development has been fostered in this part of the Scottish Development Area by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and will provide additional employment in the course of this year. My local officers are doing all they can to put those who are unemployed in touch with employers requiring workers.
    Mr. Bence: Is the Minister aware that we have redundancy in Dumbarton at the
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    Blackburn Company and redundancy at another company on Clydebank, and we have a fall in employment at the Scotstoun factory of Leyland, the old Albion Motors, and the situation on the Clyde has become very serious? Will he consult his right hon. Friends to see whether some employment could be brought not only to Blackburn's in Dumbarton but to other factories in the neighbourhood where production is falling off?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, I will certainly consult in order to see what we can do. I agree that it is an area with special problems. There are some hopes of improvement there; the hon. Gentleman probably knows that the Goodyear Tyre factory will make an important contribution in Cydebank in the course of the year.
    Mr. Lee: Does not the inference from the Minister's answers to previous Questions and to this Question show that the decontrol of industrial building is having the effect of providing unwanted or unneeded factories in some areas to the detriment of factory building in Development Areas, and will he reimpose industrial building control in order to make sure that factories are built in the Development Areas and not outside?
    Mr. Macleod: I do not think that, even from those two figures, one can draw such a wide generalisation as that.
    Mr. Lawson: Will the Minister bear in mind that unemployment and employment prospects are so bad in Scotland that there are four times as many unemployed as unfilled vacancies? Will he bear that in mind?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, I will; but it is fair also to say, as the hon. Gentleman knows, because I have pointed this out to him before, that the trends in Scotland have been steadily improving for a long time, which I am delighted to see, and even in the slight recession we had last year the rate of increase in unemployment in Scotland was very much less than it was for Great Britain as a whole.

    Bank Employees, Scotland (Union Representation)
    Mr. Benceasked the Minister of Labour what steps he proposes taking to end the dispute between the National

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    Union of Bank Employees and the Royal Bank of Scotland, and the British Linen Bank.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: My industrial relations officer in Scotland has had discussions with the banks and the union. The banks are not prepared to negotiate directly with the union outside the Joint Conciliation Council of the Scottish Banking Industry, and the union is not prepared to seek representation on that Council. There does not appear to be any further action which my officer can usefully take at present.
    Mr. Bence: Does not the Minister realise that many branches of these banks in Scotland have no other trade union organisation except this, and that therefore there can be no negotiation. Will he not look into this again, because many bank employees throughout Scotland are quite unrepresented except for staff organisations, which are really just company organisations through which the men have no representation whatever?
    Mr. Macleod: The hon. Gentleman must remember that all I can do in this matter is in conciliation, because it is, of course, within an employer's discretion which organisation he will recognise, and the Ministry of Labour has no standing in the matter.
    Mr. Bence: But throughout the whole of Scotland there are hundreds of branches with only this one organisation. Cannot the Minister bring his high office to influence the bank employers that, as this is the only organisation existing throughout hundreds of branches, they should agree to use it as the negotiating body?
    Mr. Macleod: Even if those facts were true, the hon. Gentleman is avoiding the dilemma which I put to him. All I can do in this matter is limited to conciliation, and that, through my officers, I have tried to do.

    Industrial Disputes Order
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Minister of Labour what proposals he has for amending the Industrial Disputes Order.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: This subject is still in an early stage of consideration and I have no statement to make at present.
    Dame Irene Ward: My right hon. Friend will bear in mind, will he not, that his predecessor gave a pledge to amend the Order, but that it has been a long time under consideration?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, I will. We have now started these discussions, and I hope to make progress in them.

    European Free Trade Area
    Mr. Leeasked the Minister of Labour to what extent the arrangements agreed upon for the mobility of workers between the five Brussels Treaty Powers will be modified by the conditions for the setting up of a Common Market in Western Europe.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the Western European Union scheme for the exchange of information on employment available in member States. I cannot anticipate whether any modification in the scheme may be necessitated by the setting up of a Free Trade Area in Western Europe.
    Mr. Lee: In the discussions which the Government are having about the Free Trade Area, are they pointing out that we do not envisage the possibility of the large-scale transfer or bringing into this country of foreign labour at a time when it may well be that we will not have sufficient work for our own people?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, indeed. The Trades Union Congress in its representations to the Government brought that and many other points into the statements it made, and they are all taken into account in the discussions that are proceeding.

    Disabled Persons, Wrexham
    Mr. Idwal Jonesasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that 304 registered disabled persons are unemployed in the Wrexham district; and what steps he is taking to place these persons in suitable employment.
    Mr. Carr: I realise that there is a difficult problem in this district, though I am glad to say that the number of registered disabled unemployed has now fallen to 284. My local officers placed 81 registered disabled persons in employment during the last six months, and will continue to do all they can to help

    Apprenticeships, Lanarkshire
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Labour to what extent the openings in Lanarkshire for apprenticeships for school leavers have improved following the representations made to the appropriate Ministers in a deputation, and the memorandum submitted, on 13th July, 1955.
    Mr. Carr: There has been no significant change in the position. Nevertheless, a considerable number of new industrial projects have been approved for Lanarkshire since 1955, and I hope that in due course these will result in an increased number of progressive openings for young people.
    Mrs. Mann: Is the Minister aware that the number of new projects opened up in the industrial estates throughout Lanarkshire provide a pitifully small number of apprenticeship openings? Is there any assurance that such new projects will present more openings in the future?
    Mr. Carr: The first stage is the new projects; that is the basis of an expansion in the opportunities which the hon. Lady wants to see. She may be aware that I am chairman of a sub-committee set up by the National Joint Advisory Council last year to study the adequacy in both numbers and quality of apprenticeships and training opportunities generally throughout the country; and, of course, we shall not forget Scotland in our considerations.

    Cost of Living
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Labour how much greater in Scotland than in England is the cost of those items of food represented in his Index of Retail Prices; and if he will indicate the differences in cost of living between Scotland and England in his monthly Gazette.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The Index of Retail Prices measures the relative changes as between various dates in the average level of retail prices in the United Kingdom as a whole and does not provide a basis for measuring differences in the cost of living between different areas.
    Mrs. Mann: Scotland is a different country from England, as the right hon. Gentleman probably knows, and the prices are definitely higher than in
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    England and wages are lower. Does the Minister not think it time that we had this revealed in the index figures?
    Mr. Macleod: Let me concede straight away and apologise to the hon. Lady for the first part of her supplementary questions. The difficulty is that the index is a measure of percentage change and it would not be possible to calculate either for countries or for areas, without an enormous amount of extra work, the sort of comparison that the hon. Lady requires. It will be to some extent helpful to her that when we publish, as we shall do shortly, the household expenditure inquiry, special and separate figures will be given for Scotland.

    Petrol Restrictions
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Labour to what extent petrol restrictions are still causing unemployment.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: During the four weeks ending 15th March, the discharge of about 1,000 workers was reported as being wholly or partly due to petrol restrictions. This compares with a figure of about 3,000 during the previous four weeks. On 15th March, some 22,000 workers were estimated to be working short time wholly or partly on account of petrol restrictions. The corresponding figure for 15th February was 36,000.
    Mr. Lipton: Now that rationing is openly flouted everywhere and is no longer a problem, will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence to end the shilling extra duty and so keep down rising costs which adversely affect employment and may even cause strikes?
    Mr. Macleod: I cannot think that that arises very much from the Question on the Order Paper.

    Factories (Fire Precautions)
    Mr. Hobsonasked the Minister of Labour if his inspection of all textile mills in Keighley is now complete.
    Mr. Carr: I presume the hon. Member has in mind the special survey of fire alarm arrangements. This was completed last October.
    Mr. Hobson: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that his Answer is very satisfactory indeed in view of the promises he made when this disastrous fire was debated in the House?
    Mr. Carr: I appreciate what the hon. Member says. He may like to know that there is now only one outstanding case of a textile mill in Keighley where the installation of a fire alarm is either not complete or pending.
    Mr. Hobsonasked the Minister of Labour how many textile mills in the Keighley area are still without fire certificates.
    Mr. Carr: Thirty-six, of which all but eight have been surveyed by the local authority preparatory to the issue of certificates.
    Mr. Hobson: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied with the progress that has been made in the issue of these fire certificates? Is he aware that he has overriding powers under the 1937 Act? In view of the fact that it is now more than a year since the fire took place, with eight deaths, does he not think it is time that he used those overriding powers?
    Mr. Carr: I am satisfied that the local authority has been making really strenuous efforts in recent months and that progress is now being made in the right direction. The local authority is, quite properly, requiring to be satisfied that a number of measures are properly carried out before granting certificates. As I have said, I am satisfied that it is pressing on with the matter now.
    Mr. Hobson: Will the hon. Gentleman watch the position very carefully indeed? I still think that progress is somewhat slow.
    Mr. Carr: Indeed, I will give that assurance, and we will not hesitate to use any powers should we be dissatisfied.
    Mr. Hobsonasked the Minister of Labour if he has completed his review of the policy under the Factory Acts relating to fire.
    Mr. Carr: Yes, Sir, and as a result some action has already been taken and lines of policy for further action have been laid down. All factories where fire alarms are required have been surveyed and follow-up action is being taken. An advisory leaflet has been issued to all employers on this subject. Local authorities have been asked to speed up the work of examining means of escape.
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    An advisory leaflet on fire drills is about to be sent to employers and advice on fire prevention is being prepared in collaboration with the Home Office. In agreement with the Home Office, revised instructions have been issued providing for closer co-operation between the Factory Inspectorate and fire authorities.
    Mr. Hobson: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that his reply is quite satisfactory and that perhaps we can now say that these people did not die in vain?
    Mr. Carr: I thank the hon. Member for the interest he has taken in this matter throughout. We will do our best to see that his satisfaction is maintained.
    Mr. Lee: Can the hon. Gentleman enlarge a little on the latter part of his Answer? Is he now considering permitting the factory inspector to invite the fire prevention officer to visit such a factory with him? As the hon. Gentleman knows, at the moment it is dependent upon the employer giving his permission. Is the hon. Gentleman getting a closer liaison between the two authorities in order that the fire prevention officer can help in determining the progress which is being made in regard to fire prevention?
    Mr. Carr: I think I am right in saying that the powers still remain, but we cannot compel an employer to accept one of the fire officers. The degree of co-operation between our Inspectorate and the fire officers is certainly being intensified. Unless we have any trouble in getting the fire officers admitted where it is necessary to do so, I think it is better to leave the powers as they are.

  NATIONAL SERVICE

    Discharge and Recall
    Mr. Remnantasked the Minister of Labour what is the average time between the discharge of a National Service man from one Service and his call-up for another to complete the period of two years.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The average time taken is about three months, but National Service men discharged on compassionate grounds are not considered for recall until at least six months have elapsed since discharge.
    Mr. Remnant: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the case with which I was concerned there were six months between discharge from the Navy and the man's call-up for the Air Force? Is it is not entirely wrong that, through no fault of his own, a man should have to spend two and a half years of his life connected with National Service rather than the two years laid down, and will my right hon. Friend please examine the matter to see whether this interval cannot be curtailed to a minimum?
    Mr. Macleod: We do try to keep it as low as possible. Of course, the figure of three months which I gave is an average, and it follows that there are some cases in the neighbourhood of five months, such as the one to which my hon. Friend refers. We recognise that such a gap can be extremely inconvenient if it is followed by recall, and we do try to keep it as small as possible.
    Mr. Remnant: Would my right hon. Friend consider whether part of the gap might not be included in the term "National Service"?
    Mr. Macleod: It is an interesting idea, which I thought of, as a matter of fact, when I saw the Question on the Order Paper but there are no powers under which I could do that.

    Call-up (Postponements)
    Mr. Allaunasked the Minister of Labour (1) if he will exempt from National Service all men who are the main breadwinners for a widowed mother and one or more young children
    (2) whether he will have printed on the registration form for National Service a notice that exemption can now he obtained for a man who has a relative physically dependent on him or who is the mainstay of an orphaned family, a widow with a child or children to look after, and a man living alone with a widowed mother.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The National Service Acts make no provision for the exemption from National Service of men with heavy domestic responsibilities. What they do provide is that call-up may be postponed on grounds of exceptional hardship. This is explained in a leaflet (N.L.2) which is handed to all men who register. The leaflet is being revised in
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    the light of the amended Regulations. If a man applies for postponement in the circumstances mentioned by the hon. Member, his application will certainly be most sympathetically considered.
    Mr. Allaun: While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he could not save much unnecessary anxiety by automatic exemption of such cases? On 4th March, he told the House that exemption could be applied for in cases of less hardship, such as that of a man living alone with his widowed mother. As many men are not aware of these new important concessions, could not the Minister bring them to their attention in the way I have suggested?
    Mr. Macleod: I am doing that by revising the leaflet to which I have referred. If the hon. Member studies his Question No. 11, for example, he will see, however, that it would not be inconsistent for the man to whom he refers to be a millionaire. It is necessary for all the authorised officers and then for the hardship committees to consider individual cases, but I have sent the most special instructions to the authorised officers to deal with all these cases most sympathetically, and that will be done.

  SCOTLAND

    Farm Subsidies
    Mr. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he intends to take to ensure that farming subsidies are paid only to those farmers who need them.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to the Question which the hon. Member put to him on this subject on 11th March, with which I entirely agree.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is the right hon Gentleman aware that Scotland ought to take a lead in matters of this kind? Is it not the case that in the last six years the subsidies paid to Scottish farmers have quadrupled, from just over £6 million to over £27 million? If he is not prepared to take legislative action, will

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    not the right hon. Gentleman ask farmers as a patriotic gesture, while they can afford to do without subsidies, whether in the face of our extreme economic difficulties they will forgo them?
    Mr. Maclay: The hon. Member will realise that the policy on farm subsidies has been debated very fully in the House. I, as well as my right hon. Friend, believe that we are on the right lines.
    Mr. Woodburn: Would the right hon. Gentleman get the Government to make up their mind on what they believe in connection with subsidies? When it comes to housing, we are told that subsidies ought to be given only in case of need. if that is the principle that the Government have adopted, surely it must be adopted all round. If it is not sauce for the goose it cannot be sauce for the gander.
    Mr. Maclay: If the right hon. Gentleman reflects very carefully, he will realise that a comparison between housing and agriculture in this matter is not appropriate.
    Hon. Members:Oh.

    Housing, Wick (Personal Case)
    Sir D. Robertsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that Wick Town Council have rejected the application for a house by Flight Sergeant A. G. Flett, Royal Air Force, Henlow, a Regular airman with 24 years' Colour and eight years' Reserve service; that the airman was born, brought up and apprenticed, and worked for seven years before the war, in Wick; that his application is in accordance with Air Ministry instructions based on Government directions to local authorities; and if he will take immediate steps to have this airman, his wife and four unmarried children provided with a council house when he retires from military service next year.
    Mr. Maclay: The Town Council, with whom I have been in touch, say that they have not rejected this application. They are aware of my recommendations about the housing of ex-Service men, but it is their practice to postpone consideration of such applications until the applicants have returned from service and found work in the burgh. In the meantime,
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    they have noted the facts of this particular case.
    Sir D. Robertson: Is not that reply wholly unsatisfactory? Is it not the case that I sent all the correspondence on this matter to the Minister over three weeks ago? Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have in my hand a letter from the factor to Wick Council stating that he regrets that,
    "… at present Wick Town Council are not accepting housing applications from anyone other than persons resident in the town. When you come to live in Wick on discharge perhaps you will then come and see me and complete the final form of application."
    How can this man, who has done such grand service and who has a wife and four children, in addition to one who was recently married, come to Wick and wait? Where will he live?
    Mr. Maclay: I can assure my hon. Friend that I have the greatest sympathy with ex-Service men in their search for houses, but their position is exactly as I set out in my original Answer. I should make it clear that I have no powers by which to insist upon a local authority taking any particular action in this matter. It rests entirely with the local authority, but, of course, I have been in communication with this local authority and the reply that I have already given is the result of an exchange of letters.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: If the right hon. Gentleman has so much sympathy with these ex-Service men, why is he increasing their rent?
    Hon. Members:Answer

    Bovine Tuberculosis
    Captain Duncanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on his latest proposals to free Scotland of bovine tuberculosis.
    Mr. Maclay: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given on 12th March to the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn).
    Captain Duncan: Would my right hon. Friend not agree with me in saying that the fact that we in Scotland will be 100 per cent. T. T. in two years' time—[HON. MEMBERS: "What?"]—is a great feather in the cap of Scottish farmers and a tribute to their efficiency and keenness?
    Mr. Maclay: I most certainly agree with that.
    Captain Duncanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what arrangements he is making to ensure an adequate supply of Irish tuberculin-tested feeding cattle for those farmers in Scotland who have traditionally bought this type of store, when Scotland becomes a 100 per cent. free testing area in two years' time.
    Mr. Maclay: I understand that the Irish Republican authorities are aware that in about 2½ years' time Scotland will become a fully attested area, and that they are now taking steps to expedite the eradication of tuberculosis from their own herds. These should result in the provision of tubercular-free stores in greater numbers in the future.
    Captain Duncan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a trickle of once-tested cattle coming over from Eire at present and that this is unsatisfactory because they have to be isolated for at least 60 days on the farmer's farm when they are bought from the dealer? Will he arrange with his area authorities that it will be T. T. cattle and not once-tested that will come over in two years' time, otherwise there will be a great lack of stores for the Scottish farmer?
    Mr. Maclay: My hon. and gallant Friend will realise that in my original reply I said that the Eire authorities are fully aware of this problem and, I believe, are taking very effective steps to expedite the eradication of tuberculosis so that what we desire will be achieved.

    Houses, Maryhill (Access Paths)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the Scottish Special Housing Association have now completed their technical investigation into the flooding of access paths to houses erected by them at Cadder Scheme, Maryhill; and when the necessary remedial work will commence.
    Mr. Maclay: Remedial work, which I hope will prevent a recurrence of the flooding of the access paths to these houses, has been completed.
    Mr. Hannan: Whilst appreciating that reply, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that representations in this matter have been made over the
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    past three years? Since there has been such a delay in the matter, will he take steps to see that no such delays occur in similar cases in future?
    Mr. Maclay: I regret that there has been a delay. I know that there was a little delay because there had to be consultation between the Scottish Special Housing Association and the Glasgow Corporation's Parks Department, but I doubt whether the delay has been quite as long as is indicated in the Question.

    Doctors' and Dentists' Remuneration
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the doctors' pay claim as regards doctors in Scotland and indicate what steps he is taking to make an interim settlement of that claim pending its consideration by a Royal Commission.
    Mr. Maclay: This is essentially a United Kingdom matter, and I cannot add anything to what has already been said by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 12th March.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that Scottish doctors have special conditions and that those should be taken into account? What about an interim settlement pending the ultimate decision?
    Mr. Maclay: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that he would make a further statement on this matter in due course, and I am not prepared to add to what he said.

    Apprenticeships, Lanarkshire
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for Scotand if he has considered the representations made by the deputation from Lanarkshire on 13th July, 1955, regarding lack of openings for apprenticeships for school leavers throughout Lanarkshire and comparisons made with conditions in England; and what action has been taken in fulfilment of the promise made to that deputation and the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie.
    Mr. Maclay: I have seen the reply that my predecessor sent the hon. Member on 23rd September, 1955. In accordance with the assurances then given, the Board

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    of Trade have continued, with some success, to encourage new industrial development in Lanarkshire.
    Mrs. Mann: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what are the actual results'?
    Mr. Maclay: As my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour indicated in his reply earlier this afternoon, there has been substantial success in attracting new projects. I am informed that there have been twenty-seven new projects since July, 1955, which should give, in total, employment to over 3,000 people.

    Hospital Staffs (Lodging Charges)
    Mr. Hoyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the resentment caused in hospitals in Scotland by the decision to impose a charge for board and lodging on resident medical and dental staff while absent on annual leave; under what authority this decision was made retrospective from August, 1956; and if he will cancel this decision.
    Mr. Maclay: This matter is under consideration by the Whitley Committee concerned. I expect to have their decision very soon, and I shall then write to the hon. Member. The original decision followed an agreement between the two sides of the Whitley Committee.
    Mr. Hoy: Do I understand from what the right hon. Gentleman is saying that this is now to be reconsidered?
    Mr. Maclay: Yes, Sir. At this moment the subject matter of the Question is under reconsideration by the appropriate committee.
    Mr. Hoy: Can we take it from the right hon. Gentleman, then, that these doctors will not be charged until a settlement has been reached?
    Mr. Maclay: I cannot possibly prejudge the results of the discussions now going on in the Whitley Committee.
    Mr. Hoy: If this is being negotiated at the present time, surely the right hon. Gentleman could give the House an assurance that at least the doctors will not be charged until a settlement is reached?
    Mr. Maclay: I really prefer to wait until the Whitley Committee has reported.
    Mr. Woodburn: My hon. Friend has asked a question about a change that has been made. I gather that the right hon. Gentleman has now imposed this charge; in other words, that he has changed the conditions of the doctors in the midst of a discussion as to what the final settlement is to be. Could not the existing position be continued until the matter is settled?
    Mr. Maclay: I should like notice of the precise detail of that question. I have not examined that point, but obviously, if the matter is being reconsidered, the question of retrospective action must be involved.

    Pharmacists (Jury Service)
    Mr. Hoyasked the Secertary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the difficulties arising for pharmaceutical chemists in Scotland in obtaining exemption from jury service; and whether he is prepared to amend the law to give them at least equality with chemists in England and Wales.
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received concerning the present procedure whereby pharmacists may secure exemption from jury service in Scotland; and what steps he proposes to take.
    Mr. Maclay: I understand that a pharmacist may be excused attendance as a juror if a qualified substitute is not available. I am aware of the view of the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain that pharmacists in Scotland should be exempt by statute from jury service, but I cannot at present hold out any prospect of legislation.
    Mr. Hoy: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that all we are asking for in this respect is to bring the Scottish chemists into line with the chemists in England and Wales, and that it can be very inconvenient indeed if the only qualified chemist in charge of a shop is called up for jury service? Would he not look into it with a view to expediting a decision?
    Mr. Maclay: I am advised that we have no knowledge of actual hardship being caused by call-up for jury service. I appreciate that there is inconvenience in the present procedure, but as I have said,

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    I cannot at present hold out the prospect of legislation.
    Mr. Willis: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there have been complaints inside Scotland itself, apart from those coming from the Pharmaceutical Society, and surely he can do something about this matter much quicker than he suggests? What he seems to be suggesting is that he cannot see his way to do everything.

    Tay Bridge (Roads)
    Mr. Hubbardasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in the planning of roads in Fife leading to and from the Forth road bridge, consideration will be given to the road requirements necessary when a road bridge is built over the River Tay.
    Mr. Maclay: The Forth Road Bridge Order, 1947, provides for extensive approach roads to link the bridge with the existing roads on both sides of the river. I am advised that the roads provided for in the Order would not require to be altered in the event of a bridge being built across the Tay.
    Mr. Hubbard: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that there will be quite a big increase in the traffic on these roads, and on the existing roads between North Queensferry and Dundee, that this is in the middle of a coal developing area where extensive coal development is going on, and that it would be imprudent to spend any money unless one takes into consideration the increased volume of traffic?
    Mr. Maclay: I think my reply covers the hon. Gentleman's point.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: Is the Secretary of State aware that the public inquiry into the Dundee Development Plan, which has been going on, has shown how impossible it is to plan the future development of Dundee without a decision by the Secretary of State on roads over the Tay?
    Mr. Maclay: That is another question, I think.

    Buckhaven High School (Land Acquisition Charges)
    Mr. Hubbardasked the Secretary of State for Scotland, in view of the fact that in normal processes of law all ex-
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    penses, including those of the successful party, are borne by the unsuccessful party, why his Department has invited the education authority for the county of Fife to pay his expenses in connection with the compulsory acquisition of land at Buckhaven High School.
    Mr. Maclay: It is the normal practice to require expenses incurred by me in connection with a compulsory purchase order to be paid by the education authority who promoted the order unless the objections which have given rise to the inquiry are considered to be frivolous. I can find no special circumstances in this case to warrant exceptional treatment.
    Mr. Hubbard: Will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is a case where a local authority, which is responsible for education and the provision of playing fields and the building of a high school in my constituency, has been compelled to take certain legal steps in order to carry out the wishes of the Government, and, having taken those legal steps, the county council not only has to meet its own expenses but also the expenses of the Secretary of State? Is not this another case where the Secretary of State is making things more difficult for the finances of the local authorities?
    Mr. Maclay: I have studied this case, and, on all available precedents, it seems to be fair and just.

    Invalid Cars
    Miss Herbisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when all severely disabled persons who require invalid cars to get them to and from their work will be supplied with one.
    Mr. Maclay: Cars are supplied to severely disabled war pensioners who are receiving pension at the 100 per cent. rate and are accepted as coming within certain medical categories of disablement. I am advised that all war pensioners qualified to receive cars have them. All other equally disabled persons are qualified to receive motor tricycles.
    Miss Herbison: Is the Minister aware that on two occasions I have taken up with him a case of one of my constituents, and that on both occasions I have been informed by the Ministers at the

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    Scottish Office that this constituent cannot get a car until all those who need cars for work have got them? Is he also aware that this answer does not line up with previous replies I have received?
    Mr. Maclay: The information I have given is correct as far as I can possibly check, but I would be glad to look at these cases again.

    Glasgow Western Infirmary (Radiotherapy Units)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made in the provision of now accommodation and equipment for radiotherapy treatment at Glasgow Western Infirmary.
    Mr. Maclay: Tenders have been invited and work will start shortly on an extension to house two additional radiotherapy units to meet immediate needs. The long-term requirements of the Infirmary are at present being examined by the regional hospital board and the board of management with a view to an early decision about the additional provision to be made.
    Mr. Hannan: Whilst appreciating the first part of that answer, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that in an earlier reply to me his predecessor said that he was expecting a report from the Cancer Committee of the Scottish Health Services Council? Has he yet received that report, and can he say what are its contents?
    Mr. Maclay: I would prefer the hon. Gentleman to put that down as a separate Question if he would do so.

    Civil Defence
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what new proposals he has for improving civil defence arrangements in Scotland.
    Mr. Maclay: Within the limits imposed by economic considerations, practical measures are being continued to increase the efficiency of civil defence arrangements.
    Mr. Hughes: Would the right hon. Gentleman mind translating that into English? Does he not think that the establishment of a rocket range on the west coast of Scotland will make huge areas of Scotland less safe than they
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    would otherwise have been, and will he revise his evacuation proposals in the light of that?
    Mr. Maclay: I think the hon. Gentleman is going a little wide of his original Question by bringing in another subject.

    Law Reform Committee (Report)
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the First Report of the Law Reform Committee for Scotland; and what steps he proposes to take.
    Mr. Maclay: I am considering this report in consultation with my right hon. and learned friend the Lord Advocate, and I shall, of course, take into account any representations which are received about its recommendations. I can, however, hold out no prospect of immediate legislation.
    Mr. Willis: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that a very eminent member of the Scottish Bench has already said that the recommendations regarding the liability of occupiers are urgent and not to be delayed for two or three years?
    Mr. Maclay: There are many very urgent matters which come into our affairs.

    Crofters (Scotland) Act (Schemes)
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many reorganisation schemes have so far been prepared under Section 19 of the Crofters (Scotland) Act, 1955; and how many have so far been completed.
    Mr. Maclay: Two schemes have so far been submitted for my approval and both are under consideration.
    Mr. Willis: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask him whether he can tell us when we can expect the first annual Report of the Crofters Commission?
    Mr. Maclay: I am afraid that that is another question.

  EDUCATION, SCOTLAND

    Block Grants
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in the light of the Government's proposals for the future financing of local

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    government in England and Wales, any change is being considered in the method of calculating the grant for Scottish education.
    Mr. Maclay: The proposals envisage that both in Scotland and in England and Wales, the specific grant for education should he largely merged in a general grant. The considerations which should be taken into account in fixing the total of the Scottish general grant both initially and in subsequent periods will be discussed with the local authorities.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the Secretary of State aware that this raises very important implications for Scottish education? At present, the Scottish education grant is a fixed fraction of the Ministry grant. In future, is Scottish education to have its grant decided by the amount of money spent by the English local authorities?
    Mr. Maclay: The amount of grant hitherto available for education authorities in Scotland will, of course, obviously be a consideration in determining the amount of general grant and one to which I shall have regard in considering the amount of grant for Scotland.
    Mr. Woodburn: When this new grant is fixed, will it be fixed no matter what the increased cost on the local authority? Will the Government contribution be fixed for a given time, and what time win that be? Will it be for five years, two years or one year? Does this mean that all extra cost will be borne by the local authority and not by the Government, as it is today?
    Mr. Maclay: It would not be appropriate for me to go into detail about this complicated subject, on which discussions are about to take place with the local authorities.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it is important that, before the discussions are fixed, the House should make its mind felt about this matter? Is he aware that there will be considerable trouble if there is to be a reduction and local authorities are made to bear all extra cost from now on?
    Sir J. Henderson Stewart: Can my right hon. Friend indicate roughly when these discussions with the local authorities may take place?
    Mr. Maclay: Certain talks are going on, but I should like notice of that question so as to be able to be more precise in my answer.
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what protests he has received from local authorities or other associations expressing concern at the Government's proposal to institute a block grant system in respect of certain local services; and what reply he has made.
    Mr. Maclay: The Education Institute of Scotland and the Ayrshire local association of the Institute have written expressing concern about the inclusion of the Education main grant in the proposed general grant; and it is intended to discuss the matter with the Institute at a convenient opportunity. I do not think it right at this stage to indicate what questions have been raised in the discussion with the Local Authority Associations, which are continuing.
    Mr. Ross: Surely the Secretary of State is aware of the concern throughout Scotland that the inevitable result of this change will be to stultify progress in education as well as other local services and that he is shutting his eyes to what is happening financially to local authorities and telling them to make the best of it while he is safeguarding the central Government?
    Mr. Maclay: I believe that to be a quite wrong assumption.

    Expenditure
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the current cost of education in Scotland.
    Mr. Maclay: For the current financial year the Public Education, Scotland, Vote makes provision for the expenditure of £44·9 million and education authorities estimate that in the year ending May, 1957, they will spend on education £21·3 million from rates and from grants under the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act, 1954.
    Mr. Hughes: Would the Minister consider making a statement for Scotland similar to that recently made by the Minister of Education for England? Is he

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    aware that the Minister of Education for England was so horrified and disgusted when he arrived at his office and discovered that we were spending less on education than the U.S.A. and the U. S. S. R. that he is spoiling for a fight with someone? On whose side will the right hon. Gentleman be in that fight?
    Mr. Maclay: In my enthusiasm for education I yield nothing to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education.
    Mr. Woodburn: Further to that point, could the Minister give us two assurances? First, that in the changes which are to be made Scotland will not suffer in its relative position to England and, secondly, that the local authorities will not suffer relatively to the Government as a whole in their respective proportion of contribution to education?
    Mr. Maclay: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that, as long as I have anything to do with it, I will fight fully and strongly for Scotland's relative position in all things. On the second part, I am not prepared to enter into details at Question Time. The matter is too complicated.
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has for a Scottish Contribution to an expanded programme of national educational expenditure.
    Mr. Maclay: The Public Education, Scotland, Vote will be published later this month. In the meantime, I can inform the hon. Member that whereas the Scottish School Building Programme for 1956–57 is £11·1 million, that proposed for 1957–58 is £13·2 million.
    Mr. Thomson: Since the Secretary of State has told my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) that he does not yield to the Minister of Education, will he tell the House, as the Scottish Minister of Education, that he agrees that we are not spending enough nationally on education?
    Mr. Maclay: There are always a great many subjects on which we should like to spend more money, but I think that Scotland is doing fairly well with education.

    Senior Secondary Schools (Places)
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state, as a percentage of the respective school populations, the number of places available in senior secondary schools in Scotland and in Ayrshire.
    Mr. Maclay: The number of places that are or could be made available in any particular area depends on both the accommodation and staff available and it would be difficult to give the hon. Member a precise estimate in answer to his Question, but I have no evidence that in Ayrshire or in Scotland as a whole there are not sufficient for all the children who could derive full benefit from senior secondary education. I should add that of the total number of pupils in secondary classes in public and grant-aided schools in January, 1957, in Scotland as a whole 42 per cent. and in Ayrshire 43 per cent. were following senior secondary courses.
    Mr. Ross: If we are to consider the matter properly, surely it is necessary for the Secretary of State to obtain this information? It has been available in England, and there is no reason why it should not be available in Scotland. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in certain areas children who are capable of benefiting from senior secondary education are not receiving it because of the limitation on places?
    Mr. Maclay: I agree that the important thing is that no children considered by education authorities to be fit for senior secondary courses should be kept from such courses. I am informed that they are not being kept from them, although some of the classes are rather large.

    Technical Education
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to increase the number of girl students studying for the higher technological qualifications.
    Mr. Maclay: It is our aim to ensure that facilities are provided for the training of all the technologists that industry needs. Existing facilities are open equally to boys and girls. We shall continue, as occasion affords, to urge parents, teachers and industry to encourage girls to train and to take up work in the applied sciences.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the Secretary of State aware that this is one of the principal untapped sources of technologists? Can he say how many girls are taking higher technological courses in Scotland?
    Mr. Maclay: I am afraid that I should want notice of that question on a matter of detail, but I am very well aware of the importance of the subject.
    Captain Duncan: Would my right hon. Friend agree that some very notable technological advances are taking place in Dundee?
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many schools for technical education are established in the Highlands.
    Mr. Maclay: Five, Sir. In addition, technical courses are provided in several evening institutes, and most secondary schools have courses which include technical subjects.
    Mr. Grimond: Will the Secretary of State bear in mind the immense distances, and also that courses which can be run at local schools—particularly in subjects like agriculture and fishing, which are local industries—are of immense importance? Will he try to increase the numbers available?
    Mr. Maclay: I have noted very carefully what the hon. Member has said.

  DOCTORS' AND DENTISTS' REMUNERATION
  Mr. Liptonasked the Prime Minister what negotiating machinery he is using to settle the interim adjustment of pay for general practitioners.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): My right hon. Friends and I have not yet decided what should be done by way of an interim adjustment for general practitioners but, as I informed the House on 12th March, I shall make a further statement in due course.
  Mr. Lipton: Why should there be any delay in negotiating this matter? Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Home Secretary, who is by way of being an orthopaedic expert, and does not, anyhow, appear to be dragging his feet in the matter now?
  The Prime Minister: We have already made an interim announcement with regard to certain types, the junior hospital officers, and I hope to make a further statement in due course.

  COLONIAL OFFICE
  Mr. Hyndasked the Prime Minister whether he will recognise the progress towards self-government in the Commonwealth by amalgamating the remaining functions of the Colonial Office with those of the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations.
  The Prime Minister: What the hon. Member describes as "the remaining functions" of the Colonial Office are still so onerous that it would be impracticable for a single Minister to discharge them efficiently in combination with another office.
  Mr. Hynd: Have not those responsibilities very greatly diminished in recent years, much to the delight of everybody, and would it not be not only administratively convenient but a great encouragement to further progress towards self-government if we could make this change?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that the work which is done by the Colonial Secretary is by any means too small. In fact, it has rather worried me that he has had such very onerous work in recent months. Even with these changes, I am not persuaded that it would be wise to amalgamate with the office which deals with Commonwealth relations the care of dependent territories. There would be a good deal to be thought about in both directions before that decision was made.
  Mr. Shinwell: While the right hon. Gentleman may not be prepared to go as far as my hon. Friend has asked, can he say whether on constitutional matters which affect new Commonwealth countries, such as Ghana, and in relation to any projected plans of that sort, the older Commonwealth countries are brought into consultation in order to ascertain their views?
  The Prime Minister: I should be very sorry to see any distinction made between different members and different groups of the Commonwealth. Although there may

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  be, and, I have no doubt, will be, in course of time opportunity for some reorganisation of functions, I do not think that the time is yet, and I think there are a good many pitfalls into which we ought to be careful not to fall in any further developments.
  Mr. Patrick Maitland: Will not my right hon. Friend agree that, inasmuch as all the Colonial Territories are of interest to the entire Commonwealth, there is a certain intermingling of consultation which could go on and which is desirable all over the Commonwealth, and that it would be a great forward move if some machinery could be devised which would enable these things to take place?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I think there are great opportunities for further consultation and joint efforts by the countries of the Commonwealth. However, as I have said, I should certainly hesitate before putting the administrative responsibility for these territories, which for one reason or another must still be dependent, under the same Minister who dealt in the ordinary course of business with the Commonwealth countries.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is one change, not confined to a Ministerial office but in another respect, which would meet with general approval? I refer to a change in legislation to enable us to continue giving aid to such territories when they become independent, self-governing members of the Commonwealth. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, but that is a different matter from that raised in the Question. On the broad question of the Commonwealth as a whole assisting in various directions the dependent territories, I think we can enlist the help and advice of the Commonwealth countries as a whole.
  Mr. P. Williams: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the status accorded to the office of the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations? Would he not agree that many people look on that office as the poor relation of the Foreign Office?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I do not think that is so at all. The office has
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  been filled in successive Governments by very distinguished Ministers, and I think that on the whole it has worked very well. It depends, of course, upon personalities. I think it is a very good system, although I agree that there will be developments in the future as there have been in the past.

  NUCLEAR TESTS
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the World Health Organisation's Report, published on 12th March, on the danger of genetic damage from radiation, he will reconsider the decision to test a hydrogen bomb at Christmas Island and, instead, open negotiations with the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for an agreement to end thermo-nuclear tests, as proposed by the Soviet Government last year.
  The Prime Minister: The final text of this Report, which was of a conference held in August, 1956, has not yet been received; but I am advised by the Medical Research Council that it did not add to the information contained in the Medical Research Council's Report published in June of that year. On the latter part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to what I told the House on 5th and 12th March.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Is not the Prime Minister aware that there is growing disquiet in this country and other countries at the accumulating evidence that there is serious danger already, and is he not anxious to use the unique opportunity, first of all of the Disarmament Commission and the renewal of the Soviet proposals and, secondly, of his impending visit to Bermuda, to try to reach agreement to banish hydrogen bomb tests; and will he not avoid this Government going down to history as prolicidal maniacs?
  The Prime Minister: In view of the last part of the supplementary question, I think that I should be quite entitled not to answer the others, but I am quite prepared to do so. With regard to the first part of the supplementary question, that, of course, is being dealt with in the work of the Disarmament Committee which has just opened in London. In regard to the second part. this and, no

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  doubt, many other matters will come up for discussion between me and the President in the course of the next few days. I must repeat that, in my view, the problem of control or ultimate abolition of tests is one problem. What I have been pressed to do over and over again I am afraid I cannot consent to do. To abandon our tests now would be to put ourselves in a position of inferiority even for the purpose of negotiations.
  Mr. Bevan: As discussions are now about to start in the Disarmament Sub-Committee of the United Nations, if other nations come forward with propositions to undertake no further tests, will the British Government agree?
  The Prime Minister: That is a hypothetical question depending on how these discussions develop in the Disarmament Commission. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, there are a great many questions with regard to tests and the use of weapons which must involve the full problem of control and management if they are to be effective.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Would my right hon. Friend be prepared to acknowledge that there are some people only too anxious to exaggerate the genetic and medical effects of these test explosions for political purposes?
  Mr. Bevan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is a highly offensive remark and that alarm about the effects of radiation is being felt by people in all parts of the world and of all shades of political opinion? Is it not a most childish frivolity to ignore them at this stage? If the right hon. Gentleman will himself not accept the proposition that we should desist from these tests if other nations offer to do so, will we take the initiative ourselves in asking for these tests to stop, thereby giving an example to the rest of the world, or are we to wait until every other nation wants to make a test itself?
  The Prime Minister: There are many problems involved in that question, but I want to make clear, and I think that it is the general view of the House, that Her Majesty's Government are not prepared to abandon tests except under proper safeguards and effective international control as part of a comprehensive disarmament agreement.

SHIPBUILDING INDUSTRY (STRIKE)
Mr. Robens(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make a statement on the further developments in the shipbuilding dispute.
The Minister of Labour and National Service (Mr. lain Macleod): Representatives of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions visited my Ministry this morning primarily for discussion of the dispute in the engineering industry, but it was clear that there is no change in their attitude as regards the shipbuilding strike.
These two disputes are, of course, closely linked together and any developments in one are bound to affect the other. Although informal talks are going on, I have no more information to give to the House at this stage.
Mr. Robens: When the right hon. Gentleman said that there is no change in the unions' attitude towards the strike, does this mean that the Government are still of the same opinion that if the employers are willing to negotiate a wage application the strike will be called off immediately? Further, will he say what approach he has made to the employers since this time yesterday and with what result?
Mr. Macleod: It remains true that both sides have not altered their opinion. That is to say, the employers take the view that they should not make an offer but are willing to go to arbitration and accept the award. The view of the unions remains that there should be a cash offer—not defining the percentage—otherwise, in their view, the strike must go on.
The direct talks that I have had with the employers are really covered by the statement I made about informal talks. I have had an opportunity of discussions with the leader of the shipbuilding employers in which I have borne in mind the points of view expressed yesterday and on previous occasions by hon. Members.
Mr. Robens: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has met the Chairman of the Employers' Federation since this time yesterday and whether he has further considered the proposal that he

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might call under his personal chairmanship the leaders of both sides in order to bridge the gap which he himself said yesterday was very narrow?
Mr. Macleod: I do not think that it would be right to say how many times I have met whom on this particular business.
Mr. Robens: The Chairman?
Mr. Macleod: Yes, of course I have, twice since yesterday.
I should not like to go into the details of that, because I talk to a great number of people and it is not possible to do that if one has to reveal every detail of those conversations. I have made an exception to that only in view of the point which the right hon. Gentleman has made. I have seen the Chairman twice since yesterday and I hope to see him again in an hour or so. So far as the general invitation is concerned, as I told the House yesterday, I think that at the right time that might be helpful, but I think that it is essential that one side or the other, before that would be useful, should be ready to move a very small way. All my activities at present are designed to further that end.
Air Commodore Harvey: In view of the untold damage that this strike will do to the country and to the people living in it, will my right hon. Friend take the initiative and ask both sides to bury their pride and get together and discuss this matter, and also ask certain Members of the Opposition, who have great influence, to stop criticising just the employers alone?
Mr. Macleod: I want to bring the people together as soon as possible. That is covered by my previous statement.
I think it is right that we as a House should urge both sides to consider whether they cannot make a move in this matter and not concentrate just on one side. I am very grateful for the way in which the Press has taken the lead and initiative in urging this course of action. HON. MEMBERS:" Which papers?"] The Press in general, on both sides.
Mr. S. Silverman: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that a great many people with no specific or expert
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knowledge of this particular industry but who are anxious only that a settlement honourable to both sides should be achieved as quickly as possible, are, nevertheless, a little puzzled at the difference in the treatment of this dispute and that, for instance, of the doctors? In the case of the doctors, when the matter was referred to a Royal Commission which might be regarded as equivalent to some kind of arbitration, the Prime Minister immediately offered a cash interim payment and it therefore is a little difficult to see why the workmen in this case are so unreasonable when they ask for that kind of thing.
Mr. Macleod: I am sure that the differences are absolutely clear to the House. As I said in my short first statement on the shipbuilding dispute, in an issue as straightforward as this—no one could call the doctors' issue straightforward—a court of inquiry, or a similar body, would not in this case be appropriate.
Mr. Gower: Is it not to compare an industrial the Government are not doctors' dispute?
Mr. Bellenger: Does the Minister really think that he is doing all he can to bring both sides together? The impression is growing in the House and further afield that the Government are merely sitting back and letting the employers and the unions fight it out. Is it not within the right hon. Gentleman's power to bring both sides to his Ministry, whatever the outcome might be? Would not that at least provide an opportunity for him to hear both sides of the question and perhaps get some indication which might enable him to get the two sides talking?
Mr. Macleod: My Chief Industrial Commissioner and I have been tireless in our activities to reach a settlement. I agree very much with the first of the remarks—if not the others—of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), who said that one wants to achieve an honourable settlement.
I could bring the two sides together at the Ministry if they were merely to discuss the weather or something like that, but the position is that the employers are perfectly ready to meet the unions but do not want to discuss a wage claim or

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make an offer—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] I am not a spokesman for either the unions or the employers. I am explaining to the House what the position is. They have taken their stand, as the House knows, on the question of reference to arbitration. The unions have taken their stand on different grounds. I am trying to bring the two sides together.
Mr. Lee: Ought it not to be made quite clear that the unions really wish to use the negotiating machinery? These men have spent their lives creating the machinery so that they can negotiate through it. The real issue, as far as they are concerned, is that they know that the negotiating machine has never yet been used. In those conditions, is it right to ask them to go to arbitration?
Mr. Macleod: Five months' negotiation can hardly be described as not using the negotiating machinery. The whole difficulty has arisen—and hon. Members opposite really must confront this—because the employers have not made an offer, not because there has been no negotiation. That is the difficulty which has arisen and that is why I suggested that the shipbuilding dispute might go to arbitration.
Mr. Nabarro: To what extent have the dispute and the attitude of the two sides been exacerbated by the activities of Communist shop stewards and members of the Communist Party?
Mr. Macleod: I cannot evaluate what part the Communist Party has played in
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this dispute, but I am certain that it rejoices in the result.
Mr. Bevan: We are very anxious to help in this matter, if we can. The division between the two sides at present appears to be unbridgeable, because, the men say, the employers have not tried to negotiate and have said that they will not make an offer. I throw out this suggestion quite tentatively. Is it possible, not for arbitration to take place, but for a recommendation to be made by a person listening to both sides, the recommendation itself then being the subject of negotiation?
Mr. Macleod: That is a very helpful suggestion. It is one which in a slightly different form I have discussed. I should like to consider its implications to see whether it may be a real help.

CYPRUS
Mr. Callaghan(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement on the future of Cyprus.
The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd): I intend to make a statement tomorrow.
Mr. Callaghan: In view of that, and to avoid prejudicing the matter in any way, I suggest that we should postpone further questions until we have heard the Colonial Secretary's statement, Mr. Speaker.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL
  Considered in Committee; reported without Amendment; read the Third time and passed.

  GOVERNMENT'S SOCIAL POLICY
  3.46 p.m.
  Dr. Edith Summerskill: I beg to move,
  That this House deplores recent Government measures in respect of social services, which place an undue and increasing burden on those least able to bear it.
  We have put this Motion on the Order Paper because it seems to us, from Government statements and Answers to Questions, that there is an unmistakable trend which is calculated, if continued, seriously to weaken the country's social services.
  First, I should like to point out that the Motion refers particularly to those least able to bear an increasing burden, for while the social services are used by many in all income groups, nevertheless they were established and are intended to help the poorest in the community. This morning I read the Prime Minister's speech which he made at Leicester last night. I will describe it as a euphoric discourse. He spoke of wage levels three times higher than before the war, and of quantities of meat, butter and eggs being consumed. He did that, I presume, to convey the impression that real poverty does not exist under a Conservative Government.
  The fact is that the so-called average wage is a delusion. Only one-third of working men are the sole bread winners of households containing children. Many fathers of large families earn much less than the average and many pensioners live at subsistence level. I believe that the only valid test of a social policy is to ascertain how the poorest are faring and I therefore propose to direct my remarks to the conditions of the vulnerable groups, particularly the dependent children in large families, because injuries inflicted by under-nourishment leave marks which can never be eradicated in adult life. I hope that Govern-
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  ment spokesmen will also deal with the welfare of those groups and will not follow the Prime Minister's example.
  Over the last twenty years everybody has noticed the striking improvement in the physical condition of the children. That is a matter in which I take a profound interest. In fact, I may say that it brought me into politics. I should like to emphasis the point that I want to make by quoting from Dr. Arthur Massey's Modern Trends in Public Health, in page 36, under the heading of "The Revolution in Children's Diets." He says:
  "Between 1935 and 1946 the death rate of children aged 1–5 years has been halved: that of deaths in childbirth has been reduced to one-third."
  He goes on to say that while recognising the part that certain drugs have played
  " nevertheless improved nutrition has in the opinion of most played an important rôle "
  It takes many years for this to be achieved. That is why the Government's policy of reducing or, indeed, removing food subsidies is such a retrograde step.
  There are some relevant facts which the Prime Minister deliberately omitted to mention last night. The Report of the National Assistance Board for 1954 showed that at least 309,000 children under the age of 16 are the children of parents on National Assistance. The Inland Revenue reveals that there were 2 million children in families whose income per head was less than £2 per week, and that of those 1 million were in families in respect of which the income per head was less than 30s. a week. These children had to be clothed and shod, and wear and tear was considerable.
  They have large appetites, and those appetites should be satisfied with the more expensive body-building foods. The National Food Survey, which has been conducted by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, reports that these children had much less than a fair share of these important foods. To reverse our food policy and deliberately to withhold cheap food and meals is deliberately to stunt these children's bodies. That has been proved in the past.
  The most poignant speech that I have heard in my life was made in this House by a former Member, who had been a miner. When I first came into the House, in 1938, he stood at one of these benches

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  in a debate of this kind and said that he was not an orator, but was pleading for better conditions for the unemployed and their children. He said that he could not put a rational argument, but he asked hon. Gentlemen opposite to look at his body and to look at theirs. He was a very short man. I am not raising a party issue, therefore, when I ask the Government not to reverse the progressive nutritional policy of the last twenty years.
  Many children in the category to which I have referred have school meals and welfare milk. Since the Conservative Government came into power there have been three increases in the price of school meals. The price per meal was 7d. in 1951; it increased to 9d. in 1953; it became 10d. in 1956; and it is now to be raised to 1s. The increase from 7d. to 9d. was followed by a 2 per cent. reduction in the number of children taking advantage of the service, and the increase to 1s. must inevitaby mean a further reduction in those numbers. I hope that at the end of the debate we shall hear that these children—and not only those whose parents are on National Assistance—will receive free school meals.
  It is a pity that the Minister of Education, in one of his less flamboyant speeches, does not address himself to this aspect of his administration, for it is well known that the underfed child is less receptive to education.
  Sir Keith Joseph: Can the right hon. Lady clarify past history? Can she say whether there were any increases in the price of school meals during the previous Labour Administration?
  Dr. Summerskill: I believe that in the first place it was 5d. and that it was then increased to 6d. It was a very limited increase.
  Sir K. Joseph: It was also raised to 7d. in that period.
  Dr. Summerskill: I am sorry if the hon. Member does not realise the importance of doubling the price of school meals, which is what is being done today.
  Milk, which was sold at 5½d. a pint in 1951, is now 8d. a pint. Under the Labour Government milk consumption continued to increase; under a Conservative Government it is decreasing. One hon. Member opposite said last week that
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  we must try to increase the habit of milk drinking. It is not the appetite which needs whetting or the habit which needs forming; it is the necessity to keep prices low. Then these children of large families would drink the milk.
  An investigation conducted by the Milk Marketing Board revealed precisely the same position as that shown by the National Food Survey, namely, that the consumption of milk was inadequate in large families in the lower income groups.
  Is there a shortage of milk? Last year production reached an all-time record. It was 10 per cent. up on the previous year, and to dispose of it the milk had to be directed to the low-priced manufacturing market. With this great increase in production it is proposed, on 1st April next, to increase the price of welfare milk from 1½d to 4d. a pint. Welfare milk accounts for 11 per cent. of the total sales. In households with several young children the increase in the milk bill must be appreciable. What will the Milk Marketing Board do? To dispose of all this surplus milk it will have on its hands it will open mobile milk bars at shows and outdoor meetings.
  I agree that the Minister of Agriculture did his bit the other day when he proclaimed that he is drinking one and a half pints a day, but it is an astonishing thing to proclaim that after the Government have announced that they are to increase the price of welfare milk. Last week an hon. Member suggested that there should be a milk bar in the House of Commons for hon. Members. With due respect, I would say that it is not the stomachs of Members of Parliament or of Ministers of Agriculture which need the milk; indeed, some of them would be better without it. [Laughter.] I do not wish to be offensive.
  The policy of the Government should be to ensure that this surplus milk is directed into the stomachs of children, nursing and expectant mothers, invalids and old-age pensioners. That is the proper destination for it. It would be quite immoral to raise the price of milk for the poorest children and, at the same time, to relieve Income Tax and Surtax in the Budget next month. The very meanest economy which could be made at the expense of children and which many hon. Members opposite probably do not know has been introduced, was

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  the reduction in the amount of milk supplied in a day nursery from two-thirds of a pint—the children of less than five years of age had one-third of a pint in the morning and one-third in the afternoon—to one-third of a pint a day? Can any hon. Member justify such a step?
  I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that these nurseries are being closed because the National Health Service Act of 1952 has enabled local authorities to raise nursery charges so high as to make them prohibitive. The consequence is that even the priority classes—illegitimate children, children of widows and of disabled men—are now deprived of nursery accommodation in some neighbourhoods, to the detriment of the children.
  I am glad to see that the Minister of Health is here. I should like him to answer certain questions in detail. The Minister will admit that we have recognised that he is new to his office. I am also glad the Leader of the House is present, because I wish to say that it is very surprising that the present Minister is the fourth in six years to take charge of this highly technical Department, the Ministry of Health. When Questions are asked, hon. Members on this side of the House know that the right hon. Gentleman cannot possibly know the answers. I went through the Answers which he gave to Questions yesterday. The right hon. Gentleman simply evaded everything. It was done in a delightful manner, but that is not enough. Soon we must have the right and the technical answers to Questions put from this side of the House.
  I should like an unequivocal statement about the position of maternity accommodation in hospitals. Questions are frequently put by hon. Members on this side of the House because they are concerned about the closure of a maternity hospital, or the use of maternity accommodation for other purposes. I remember that an attempt was made to close the Fulham Maternity Hospital. There was a town protest, led by the mayor, and the Minister of Health decided that the hospital should not be closed.
  We want to know what is the intention of the Government in this matter. Is the
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  policy regarding maternity accommodation also to be reversed? This policy has been slowly introduced over the last twenty years. Will the Minister make clear that he approves of maternity accommodation being provided on health grounds and on social grounds; for example, where there is overcrowding in the home and there is not proper accommodation for confinement?
  On 25th February we had a full debate on National Insurance benefits, when the House was given an opportunity to bring to the notice of the Government the plight of the old-age pensioners. and particularly those in receipt of National Assistance. Again, the Prime Minister forgot to remind the country that of 2½ million people on National Assistance, 88 per cent. received retirement pensions. Perhaps the Minister will answer this question in detail. How far have the Government implemented the recommendations of the Phillips Report of December, 1954? Why does the right hon. Gentleman refuse to introduce a chiropody service which was also recommended in the Guillebaud Report?
  Hon. Members may think this a small matter, but, of course, the whole purpose of such a service is to rehabilitate old people who are confined to the house and are even bedridden because walking is too painful a process. I have pointed out to the Minister and to his predecessors the benefit of an integrated domiciliary service. Our hospitals are crowded with old people who might well be at home were there an adequate domiciliary service. In the mental hospitals there are senile cases who might never have deteriorated had this Government placed special emphasis on a domiciliary service. Indeed, the overcrowding in our mental hospitals is little short of a national disgrace.
  In December, 1955, the average overcrowding on approved standards was 14·8 per cent. This varied from nil in one hospital to 65·9 per cent. in a different hospital. In the same month the average overcrowding in our mental deficiency hospitals was 8·3 per cent. There were nearly 7,000 mental defectives on the waiting list and about half were urgent cases. Will the Minister tell us what is the position today, and how many of the urgent cases which were waiting in 1955 are still waiting?

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  Now I should like to turn to the effect of the Government's policy on prescription charges These increased charges came into operation on 1st December and we had a debate on a Prayer I agree that it is early to say what precisely is happening Unfortunately—I say "unfortunately" not only because it is unfortunate, but because it is difficult to sustain an argument when Ministers change in the way they do—it looks as though the warnings we gave to the right hon Gentleman's predecessor were fully justified.
  The cost of a prescription on 19th December, 1955, was 4s. 6½d. On 19th December, 1956, it rose to 5s. 6½d. I think I am wrong there by a penny. There was an increase of 11d. and my figures show an increase of a 1s. Only part of December was included, but that may well result from the heavy and wasteful prescribing policy which the Minister has supported. He supported it last week.
  The right hon. Gentleman will remember his remarkable statement when he told the whole country—he must remember that every Question and Answer and supplementary question and answer are reported in the medical and pharmaceutical Press and that everything he says is read by the doctors and chemists—after I had pressed for an answer, that he was willing to let chemists examine doctors' prescriptions, and in the event of them being able to prescribe something at a cheaper cost they were at liberty to do so.
  Does he realise the harm that his statement will cause to the chemist-doctor relationship? Is he satisfied that this 1s. an item policy is working out as he thought? I have been supplied today by an hon. Member with information that he received from a chemist who has a small shop. There is no reason why the man who provided the information should attempt to give wrong information, because the hon. Member is prepared to have inquiries made.
  The chemist concerned lives in an industrial area in the North of England. He states that in January, 1956, he dispensed 1,107 prescriptions at a value of £174. In January, 1957, he dispensed 1.039 prescriptions at a value of £231. In other words, since this policy has been imposed there was a fall in the number
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  of prescriptions dispensed from that small shop, but an increase in cost of 30 per cent. The Minister must have made inquiries of this kind. Can he tell me whether the inquiries which he has made from other chemists confirm the information given by this chemist?
  From the Answers to Questions which have been put it is becoming quite clear—and again we warned the Government about it in a debate last year—that diabetics, cancer cases, colostomies and epileptics are among the greatest sufferers, for they need more than one item. It is difficult to understand why the Minister finally makes the concession for which we asked at the end of last year, that the diabetics should be given their various items for 1s. but is not prepared to extend this concession to these other cases. There is no dissent about this. Pharmacists and doctors agree that these are the most tragic cases. The Minister need not think that they will be a great expense to the country, because these people are almost certainly doomed to die in a very few years.
  In a recent debate in the House I brought to the notice of the Minister of Health once more the cost of proprietary drugs. I have done this with successive Ministers of Health. Indeed, the racket "—I use the word advisedly—in proprietary drugs has been so great that in two debates which we have had in the last 18 months I did something which I seldom do in this House: I produced samples of the extensive literature brought to my house so that I could press the Minister to do something. There was no dissent from the Minister, who realised that there was a case here which needed attention; but why is it that nothing is done?
  Last November, I cited the high cost of the so-called tranquilisers sold by an American firm at a huge profit. I said:
  "I am not only concerned with the cost in terms of money of this American encroachment on the National Health Service, but with the harmful effect, both physical and mental, of this high-powered boosting of drugs which caters for the hypochondriac and the neurotic. Here, I suggest, is where the Minister should look for his savings on the drug account and not in the little purses of the sick and aged of this country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th November, 1956; Vol. 561, c. 672.]
  What has happened in the last fortnight? The World Health Organisation—its report was mentioned at Question

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  Time—has reported precisely on this. In the last fortnight the Organisation, which consists of a large number of responsible doctors, has been reported as saying:
  "People who take 'tranquillisers' too often could become true drug addicts, the World Health Organisation warned yesterday.
  Meeting in Geneva, the organisation condemned the drugs as potentially habit-forming and said the rapidly increasing' use of them in a number of countries was causing concern."
  Last night, when I got home, wondering what my sample of drugs should be, it was perhaps appropriate that I should find a packet of 25 tranquillisers. [Laughter.]
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): Most appropriate.
  Dr. Summerskill: I thought of bringing them here for the Government.
  Hon. Gentlemen must not laugh. They are paying for these things. All this is coming out of the pockets of the taxpayers. I am quite bewildered when I look at the Government benches and see hon. Gentlemen who, quite rightly. demand a cutting of extravagance by the Government, but who do not realise that this thing is not only extravagant but harmful to the whole nation. I cannot understand why they do not realise it. All doctors know. I discuss these things with the most responsible people. I would not be so silly as not to. The World Health Organisation has told the world.
  Last night, waiting for me, were the usual advertisements:
  "Dear Doctor: Tranquillisers. You could name a dozen of them".
  It goes on to boost this one, saying:
  "… it is safe and has no contra-indications. It is the ideal tranquilliser for the management of anxiety states."
  Hon. Members: Hand them over.
  Dr. Summerskill: I am hoping to get some support on this matter. I am told that these particular tranquillisers can be used for children from five years to ten years and—the Minister must listen to this—that
  "this is freely prescribable under the National Health Service."
  One thing that the advertiser omits to tell the doctor is the price, because the price may be so frightening that the doctor may
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  think, "That's a little bit too stiff. I'm not prescribing that".
  I come to the last point I want to make, which is on the British Medical Association dispute, the grave dispute which has arisen between the Minister of Health and the doctors. The Prime Minister has apparently taken charge here. His attitude, far from improving the situation, has aggravated it. I say this deliberately because, when the Prime Minister saw them last week, the doctors came away having been given no further information, and they decided forthwith to prepare a plan for withdrawal from the Service.
  This is a most remarkable incident because, politically, the doctors are 90 per cent. Conservative. Doctors form a most conservative profession, yet the Conservative Government could not have handled them more clumsily if they had been an implacable Communist bloc[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If hon. Members think that that comment is too strong, I ask them to consider what the Daily Telegraph says. It is the mouthpiece of the Conservative Party. [Laughter.] Yes, I am certain of it and I do not think right hon. and hon. Gentlemen need be ashamed of it. It does its job very well for the Conservative Party. It very often gives an excellent report of the business of this House, with a slant here and there, but nevertheless, Government supporters have a very good mouthpiece.
  The Daily Telegraph said:
  "… the Government has behaved shabbily and, indeed, shortsightedly as an employer… To bring those on whom the Health Service depends to the point of revolt suggests clumsy management at the best."
  This week, the doctors are meeting to arrange the final details of their withdrawal from the Service. There is no question of the British Medical Association wanting to withdraw its doctors. The Medical Practitioners' Union does not want to withdraw the doctors. It wants to support the Service. The British Medical Journal said, on 19th March:
  " If politicians say that such an action—[withdrawal]—is an attempt to wreck the Health Service, who is the wrecker? The Government. The medical profession does not wish to wreck the Health Service. It acknowledges that today some public organisation of medical services is necessary, and it has played a large part in planning for them."
  The doctors are meeting this week. I ask the Leader of the House whether he

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  will take this opportunity, in the absence of the Prime Minister perhaps, to act as mediator in that dispute. It is extraordinary that the Conservative Government are unable to handle the men and women who were, I know, their chief supporters in the towns and villages.
  The record of the Government in respect of the social services reveals a characteristic disregard of the needs of the poorest and a lack of co-ordination among the Departments. On the one hand, a Minister is subsidising harmful tranquilliser drugs for the wealthy hypochondriac while, on the other, another Minister is cutting down the subsidy on milk which should be drunk by the poor children. Where is the co-ordination in the Government? Is there anybody who regards the country as a whole and determines policy? Each Minister should think carefully about the conduct of the social services in his Department, and I particularly ask those who are in charge to see that this gross mismanagement ceases.
  4.18 p.m.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Dennis Vosper): The right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) complained to the Lord Privy Seal that I was the fourth Minister of Health under the Conservatives. I take it from that that she wishes me a long tenure of office.
  Dr. Summerskill: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Vosper: I am sorry that she took exception to my replies to Parliamentary Questions. I went through my Answers this morning and I noticed that two of her colleagues were more than satisfied with the replies that I gave.
  The right hon. Lady made a rather extraordinary speech. I have been looking at the Motion which she and her colleagues put on the Order Paper. I will endeavour to answer many of her points, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance will do likewise: but I suggest that many of those points go right beyond the Motion. The right hon. Lady, of course, selected, as she had the right to do, certain changes and developments in the social services, but ignored, from lack of time or perhaps from lack of intention, other developments which give a distinctly favourable view of the social
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  services which an impartial observer could not fail to take. At times, it must be distinctly embarrassing for the right hon. Lady and her hon. Friends that after five years of administration the Conservatives have not slashed the social services, but have improved them.
  To put these measures into perspective, the first part of my speech will seek to prove what I say. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance will deal with his aspect of the services. I want, first, to deal with the general position of the social services today. They cover, of course, a very wide and undefined field. My responsibility today extends to the Health Service, but until more recently, in a more junior capacity, it concerned education.
  I think hon. Members will agree that the provision of opportunities for the young and the maintenance of public health are particularly good indicators of the success or failure of social service policy as a whole. After all, the social services are rendered by the community to those who need them. Their adequacy is reflected not necessarily in the expenditure of public funds or in specific measures referred to in this or other Motions, but in the condition of those sections of the people who, formerly, were at a disadvantage. Over five years of Conservative administration there has been little variation in the proportion of the gross national product expended on the social services.
  What is more, during that period I believe more efficient use has been made of the expenditure and it has also been a time of increasing purchasing power and lower taxation. Therefore, it is a matter of little surprise that in the last five or six years there has been a marked improvement in the social services. The right hon. Lady will contest that, but I believe it to be true. Surely this is the evidence of our own eyes. The right hon. Lady and I have adjacent constituencies. I find it hard to believe that in her constituency the social conditions of the people are anything but better than they were five or six years ago. What I say is supported by a mass of reports and statistics, some of which I shall have to give to the House today. I do not believe that this favourable trend in the social services will be reversed by the recent measures to which reference has been made.

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  I expect that the right hon. Lady and some of her hon. Friends will have had time to read the reports of the Chief Medical Officer of the Ministry of Health and similar reports on the health of the school child. They seem particularly relevant to what the right hon. Lady said, because while they reflect great advances made by doctors and others concerned, the success story, which is there for anyone to read, could not have been achieved without an improvement in social conditions.
  There has been a continuing drop in mortality rates and a very welcome drop in deaths from children's infectious diseases. Improved social conditions, better housing and wider education have contributed. I do not think that it is unfair to mention the remarkable improvement in the tuberculosis figures. In 1948, there were 45 deaths from tuberculosis per 1,000 deaths. Today. that figure has fallen to 13 per 1,000. Of course, that is a tribute to those in the Health Service, but I believe it is also a tribute to those responsible for the social services generally.
  Finally, as the right hon. Lady referred to the school child, I think that she must have overlooked a paragraph in the Report of the Chief Medical Officer for 1954–55. which stated:
  "The health of the great majority of children was good; only 1.46 per cent, of them were considered to be in poor physical condition in 1955 compared with 2·55 per cent as recently as 1952."
  What better evidence could there be than that about the improvement of health of the children with which both the rigth hon. Lady and I are so much concerned? I realise that these very welcome trends have been evident for well over a century——
  Mrs. Harriet Slater: Over a century?
  Mr. Vosper: Half a century.
  I mention that to show that the trend has been accelerated. All these improvements have taken place while the Government have been pursuing a policy the logical continuation of which the party opposite seemed to be opposing in this Motion. This policy recognises that the amount which can be spent on social services is not unlimited. It is, therefore,
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  of extreme importance to eliminate all waste and inefficiency, and to ensure that the services are available to those most in need and to make certain that the resources are directed to where they can do most good.
  It is my contention, after two and a half years in two Departments, that when the Opposition were in power they failed—maybe unintentionally—to establish these priorities and, as a result, spread their resources in social services too thinly. Limitations in finance for the social services are necessary if the burden on the workers, who have to pay for them, are to be kept within reasonable limits. It is necessary also to ensure extension in the right directions and this has been and remains the object of our financial policy.
  Partly in answer to the right hon. Lady, I propose to give the House a few examples from my Department. She mentioned hospitals and no one can doubt the need for new hospital buildings. Many of them are at least a century old. In 1951–52, when we came into office, the amount allocated for England and Wales was £9·5 million. In the year which is just ending £13 million will have been spent and in the year about to start, 1957–58, the sum allocated will he £18 million.
  Mr. James Griffiths: What does the £13 million mean compared with £9 million? Is there any real increase in value?
  Mr. Vosper: The right hon. Gentleman can work that out for himself; it is quite an easy sum.
  Mr. Griffiths: The Minister is saying, of course, that whereas, in 1951, the expenditure on hospital buildings was £9 million it is now £13 million. is he asking the House to believe that there has been a real increase to £13 million?
  Mr. Vosper: The amount for the year starting next April will be £18 million, almost exactly double that for the year when we came into office. It cannot be alleged that costs have doubled during that period. [HON. MEMBERS: "It can.'] The amount at present allocated for the year 1958–59 is to rise to £20 million and I hope that it will be possible to keep on allocating increased sums to what, possibly, is the most important part of the National Health Service.
  Mr. H. A. Marquand: With reference to the figure of £13 million, does the hon. Gentleman recollect that one of his predecessors, the present Minister of Labour, told me when he held that office—some little time ago now—that the equivalent of the £9 million allocated in 1951 would then be £12 million? Therefore, surely the £13 million today must be about equivalent to the £9 million in 1951.
  Mr. Vosper: I do not disagree with what the right hon. Member said, but I have said that the figure is going up to £18 million for the year beginning next month.
  The second point about hospitals, as I am sure the House will agree, is that a reduction of the waiting lists is of first priority. Owing to a change in the basis of the statistics, I cannot cover the whole period under review, but on 31st December, 1953, the waiting lists were 526,000 and on 30th September, 1956, they were down to 433,000. That is far too big I admit, but it is a great reduction from the figures for three years previously. It was due to a better use of beds and more beds becoming available and that, in turn, was dependent on better recruitment to the hospital service. I know of no category of hospital staff which has not added to its numbers in the last few years. I particularly mention mental hospitals, where, in the first nine months of last year, there was a 20 per cent. increase in the number of student nurses.
  The right hon. Lady mentioned maternity hospitals. I can give the assurance for which she asked. There has been no change in the policy during the five years a Conservative Government have been in power. Our attitude to maternity hospitals remains as it was when the right hon. Lady and her party left office. At present, about 64 per cent. of mothers are confined in maternity hospitals.
  I will not follow the right hon. Lady in her remarks about the doctors. I do not think that it would be in the interests of the doctors or their patients for me to comment on that controversy. I am sorry that she found the intervention of the Prime Minister not helpful. My right hon. Friend intervened because he felt it advisable for there to be a Royal Commission to investigate this matter and I
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  do not know that she has disagreed with that decision.
  For that reason, my right hon. Friend exercised his prerogative to announce the Royal Commission which is to investigate the matter. I would not wish to comment further on that matter today, but I would remind the right hon. Lady that it is estimated that during the last five years no fewer than 2,000 additional general practitioners have come into the Service. That is a very necessary development.
  I would say one further word about dentists. Nobody can afford to be complacent about the shortage of dentists, and I am at present studying the McNair Report. At the same time, and partly as a result of the Government's financial policy, there are some favourable developments. The number of dentists practising in the general dental service reached the highest total ever known on 1st January this year, and the number of dental courses estimated for the current year, 1956–57, is 11·1 million for England and Wales, 10 per cent. higher than the previous maximum before charges were imposed.
  The advantages of charging policy can be seen in the proportion of dental resources diverted to the priority classes. Children under 15—the class which the right hon. Lady has so much in mind—received nearly 30 per cent. of all courses of treatment provided compared with only 7·3 per cent. in 1949, a fourfold increase. Hon. Members on both sides of the House will be familiar with the steady rise in the school dental service during the last five years.
  Mr. William Ross: Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to give any figures relating to Scotland? If not, I shall be able to get away for my tea.
  Mr. Vosper: I can assure the hon. Member that I have some figures for the United Kingdom as a whole, but, generally speaking, the favourable trends in England and Wales were also noticeable in Scotland.
  Dr. Summerskill: For tuberculosis?
  Mr. Vosper: I have given these examples because they are good examples of financial policy towards the social services not depriving those in need of

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  the service but doing what it was intended to do, improving their share of the service.
  I agree with the right hon. Lady that when it becomes possible to introduce a chiropody service it will be a very welcome improvement. I am sorry that I cannot meet her wishes in that respect today. My argument so far is that there has been an overall expansion in the Health Service and that it has been most evident at the points where it was most needed.
  The right hon. Lady did not refer to education, but I do not think that she would wish to dispute the expansion in education which has taken place in recent years. The actual advance can be seen in the steadily decreasing number of children in all-age schools, the number of pupils staying on longer at school, the massive increase—"massive" is the correct word—in the numbers taking the General Certificate of Education and the additional facilities now becoming available for further education.
  The night hon. Lady and her hon. Friends will have noticed that only last week my hon. Friend the Member for Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle) announced an addition of £5 million to the school building programme for both next year and the year after, and my right hon. Friend announced a considerable increase in the quinquennial grant for the universities.
  Mrs. Slater: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what is announced does not make up for the standstill since the present Government took office?
  Mr. Vosper: I was dealing with a Motion which refers to recent measures. As both measures were announced last week, I thought that they would be of interest to the House.
  I mention this expansion of education, not because, as The Times tells us today, it is receiving a high priority, but because it is against that sort of background that I want to refer to the proposal to recover £3½ million by increasing the price of school meals.
  The right hon. Lady did not refer to the housing policy of the Government. I will leave that matter to my right hon. Friend when he speaks later.
  I want now to turn to what I believe should be the essential part of the Motion,
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  and that is the financing of the social services, and particularly the Health Service. I should have thought that what was really worrying the right hon. Lady and her hon. Friends was the specific proposals which alter the distribution and the finance of the Health Service Vote.
  My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer recently told the House that the estimated total cost—that is the cost met from all sources—of the Health Service for Great Britain for 1957–58 would be £690 million. This compares with about £450 million spent in 1949–50. Of course, much of this is due to the increase in pay and prices, but there has been a substantial increase in real terms of about 15 per cent.
  To this increase of 15 per cent. in real terms must be added the improvements due to greater efficiency, the advance of medical science, and the redeployment of resources to meet the present need, to which I have already referred. All this has meant a considerable increase in the value of the Service to the patient, but it has added a not inconsiderable burden to that carried by the taxpayers and ratepayers.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: I gather from what the right hon. Gentleman said that of the increase in the cost of the Health Service from 1949 to the present time 15 per cent. represents a real increase in service. I take it that all the rest is eaten up by increased prices.
  Mr. Vosper: It is important to establish these figures. The expenditure for 1949–50 was £450 million. The estimated expenditure for 1957–58 is £690 million, and of that the increase in real terms is 15 per cent. That is the point that I wish to establish.
  Mr. Griffiths: Then 85 per cent. represents increase in prices?
  Mr. Vosper: If I may continue, the financial memorandum to the National Health Service Act assumed that the percentage of the cost of the National Health Service to be borne on the Exchequer would be 72·4 per cent. In the first year of operation it was 76·5 per cent., and this year it is estimated to be 80·2 per cent., which represents an Exchequer expenditure of £529 million.
  I am sorry to weary the House with these figures, but they are particularly

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  relevant to the Motion. The Government's intention—the proposal to which the right hon. Lady did not refer, but which is germane to the debate—is to double the Health Service contribution and to reduce the Exchequer percentage to 74·1 in the year 1957–58.
  The history of the National Health Service from the Beveridge Report onwards makes it clear that it has always been financed on a hybrid basis. Hon. Members opposite who may later argue that to have a weekly Health Service contribution is a regressive policy, must ask themselves why, during their years of office, they allowed this state of affairs to exist. All that the Measure which will shortly come before the House does is to enable the contributory element to resume its original place, allowing for the growth in the Service and the change in the value of money. Even under this proposal, when implemented, 75 per cent. of the money will be found by the taxpayers.
  I would ask right hon. and hon. Members opposite these questions. Is it wrong that we should seek to limit a charge which, by its incidence—by the incidence of taxation—must discourage the worker from seeking to increase his output? Do we net agree that an expanding economy can do more than anything else to improve the social services? Do we not agree—as The Times does in its leader today—that inflation is the greatest danger to the social services?
  Mr. Percy Shurmer: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the increased prescription charges will hit the poorest people, those who are more often and that it will have a detrimental effect on those who are, unfortunately, unable to pay for each prescription and, therefore, go short of medicine?
  Mr. Vosper: I shall shortly deal with the prescription charge.
  With regard to the proposal to increase the contributory element, I should like to say that there are plenty of honest precedents for seeking to limit the burden of the Health Service on the taxpayer. Every hon. Member must know the ceiling that was imposed by Sir Stafford Cripps, in 1950. I would remind hon. Members of what the present Leader of the Opposition said on 10th April, 1951:
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  "We did not feel that, in present circumstances, and with all the other burdens which had to be carried, it was reasonable to put upon the Exchequer, and, therefore, on the tax payer, another £30 million. We decided that the Health Service Estimates must be brought within a total of £400 million, which, for the time being, would have to be a ceiling."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th April, 1951; Vol. 486, c. 851.]
  This, in fact, led to the policy of charges, and it was in respect of a potential increase in expenditure of £30 million.
  This year, the potential increase is £49 million, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I seek to limit this not by imposing further charges, but by restoring the importance of the contributory element by asking those who are at work to pay towards those who are not. In days when taxation is so broadly based, and when it already contributes so much to the Health Service, surely this measure is fair and does fall upon those who can bear it.
  I think it is pertinent to ask hon. Members opposite, if they oppose this measure on this or any future occasion, what their alternative is to be. To cut the Service, to impose more charges on the patient or to increase the tax on the worker? I think that we on this side of the House, if we are to be criticised for this measure, have a right to know. If the last is chosen, that is, to increase the tax on the worker, then presumably it is intended to remove even the existing insurance contribution, and, together with the abolition of charges, which I understand to be the Opposition's policy, this would add well over £100 million to general taxation.
  The proposal to establish a health contribution will be the subject of legislation, and there is little further I can say about it, but I think I should say that it is the intention of the Government to establish both the existing contribution and the new one as a separate health contribution, and to seek by every means possible to make it clear that for each insured worker 1s. 8d. will be contributed towards the National Health Service, but that the major part of the cost of the Service will still be borne by the taxpayer.
  While there might be much to commend an extension of the contributory classes, it is proposed that the contribution shall be paid by the same categories

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  who at present pay weekly National Insurance contributions, and this will, in fact, mean that the contribution will not fall on the young, the old or on those who are off sick.
  Sir Spencer Summers: In reference to that 1s. 8d., which is the share in the contribution to the Health Service, could my right hon. Friend divide it up as between employee and employer?
  Mr. Vosper: The figure for an adult man employee is 1s. 4½d and for the employer 3½d.; for an adult woman 1s. 0½d. and for the employer 3½d., and, for those under 18, 8½d. for the employee and 3½d. for the employer.
  Mrs. Lena Jeger: Could the right hon. Gentleman clear up one point about the contribution? Will those contributions have to be paid by widows who are making insurance contributions to become entitled to retirement pensions?
  Mr. Vosper: I cannot anticipate all the Clauses of the Bill, but the contribution will be paid by exactly the same categories as are paying National Insurance contributions at present.
  I would say, finally, to hon. Members who may oppose this particular proposal that if they would prefer the alternative of extending the charges which they themselves introduced, I hope that today or on a later occasion they will say so.
  I want to turn now from this proposal to the charges policy generally, and I want to quote again from an Opposition speech, but it is the only other quotation which I shall give. The right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand), who has just left the Chamber, said this on 24th April, 1951:
  " It was absolutely necessary to obtain money from charges upon some other parts of the Health Service so that we could maintain the essentials … But in a full year we expect to receive £25 million from the charges. This … is not a tax on the Health Service; it is a readjustment within it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th April, 1951; Vol. 487, c. 238–9.]
  I do not say for a moment that that is wrong. It remains existing policy, but on this occasion we have chosen the alternative of increasing the Health Service contribution.
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  I realise that the right hon. Gentleman on that occasion exempted the 1s. prescription charge on the grounds that the deterrent effect would be serious on those least able to bear it. Whatever the merits of the deterrent effect of charges may be, we must face the fact that, despite charges, the number of dental courses and the number of sight tests are increasing to record levels. Prescriptions for 1956–57 are estimated at 234 million, which would be the highest figure ever reached, and the estimate has taken into account the effect of the recent variation in the 1s. charge.
  The right hon. Lady asked me what evidence I have of the effect of the variation of the charges. All I can tell her is that in the month of December, 1956, as compared with the previous December, there was a fall of 25 per cent. but if we take the month of January, 1957, which is a more recent month, and compare that with the previous January, the fall was only 14 per cent.
  I have said in answer to Questions that it is too early yet to judge the effect of the variation in the 1s. charge. If the variation is to be considered a recent measure under the terms of the Motion, I should remind the House that the cost of the pharmaceutical services, without charges, in the year 1957–58 is estimated at £61·8 million. It was, therefore, essential to limit the charge on the public purse.
  Both my predecessor and I were very conscious of the effect that this could have on the chronic sick and the old. The right hon. Lady mentioned the arrangements made to alleviate this by a variety of means. These included special arrangements with the National Assistance Board, prescribing for longer periods in certain cases, and, if possible, the provision of more composite packs.
  I have answered a number of Questions on the subject, and I have examined a number of individual cases submitted to my Department and through hon. Members. I do not know at this moment of any individual case of hardship which my Department or the doctor has not been able to meet.
  Mr. Shurmer: I made inquiries last weekend from a number of chemists in the poor district where I live in respect of the day on which these people can have their prescriptions and I find that they

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  can have them only if they produce the money. What is the position of an old-age pensioner or a person in the lower income group who has just sufficient to live on and so does not come within public assistance, on a Thursday, when expecting to get a prescription and has to wait until Monday, when the medicine might do that person a lot of good on the Friday or the Saturday? That is the position. Chemists have told me that they cannot give them their prescriptions unless they provide the money. The 1s. charge was bad enough, but when it comes to 3s. or 4s., it is worse still.
  Mr. Vosper: It is very difficult to judge particular cases on general remarks, but I am perfectly prepared if the hon. Gentleman will give me a little more detail to look into this allegation. I do recognise this weakness in the arrangements for making prescription charges, and for that reason I am prepared to take considerable trouble to investigate difficulties. My predecessor asked hon. Members of this House to send him details of cases of hardship, and I am continuing that investigation as well as I can.
  Mr. A. E. Hunter: I should like to put a point in support of my hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer). I have had a case, and I think the Feltham Council has written about it, in which the prescription charge was 12s., and the man concerned was entitled to a refund from the National Assistance Board, but he had not got the 12s. at the time and so could not have his prescription made up. Could the Minister think of a scheme by which the chemist could send the current prescription form to the Assistance Board.
  Mr. Vosper: I am aware of the case or cases to which the hon. Member for Feltham (Mr. Hunter) refers. I think he will find that both his constituents are in receipt of National Assistance payments, and if they present their cases to the National Assistance Board, arrangements may be made to enable them to receive advance payment to meet the charge. I should be disappointed if, in fact, that cannot be done.
  I would say a word or two about proprietary medicines. Although in no sense can it be considered a recent measure, I am well aware of the right hon. Lady's views on this particular sub-
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  ject. I think she will be wrong to suggest that vast savings on the pharmaceutical services can be found as a result of efforts in this particular field, but she will know that discussions have been proceeding for a vast amount of time with the manufacturers. If, in fact, the Opposition had postponed this Motion, as they did initially, for a week or two, I might have been able to answer the question more positively.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Molton (Mr. Turton) did announce the formation of a committee to go into the whole question, and I can only hope that it will throw some light on what is a difficult subject. I do not know whether the right hon. Lady was suggesting that proprietary medicines should be banned from the National Health Service altogether or whether she thought that we should only give the right to the doctor to prescribe them subject to certain limitations.
  I have not so far been asked about welfare milk—[HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] I am sorry. That is all the more reason, I think, why I should place on the record just a few facts about it. The history of this is, of course, that in 1940 the subsidy paid was 50 per cent.; in 1946 it rose to 66⅔ per cent., and now it has reached 81 per cent. As a result of our proposal, which has not yet been tabled, let alone approved by the House, the subsidy will, in future, be approximately 50 per cent.
  I agree completely about the nutritional value of welfare milk, but I cannot accept the argument that no change should be made in the price, which has remained unchanged since 1946, or that half price is not a reasonable price to charge. Moreover, we should remember that those in receipt of National Assistance will obtain welfare milk free of charge, and that, in respect of large families, the family allowance for the third child and subsequent children was recently raised to 10s. Reference has recently been made in the House to a survey conducted by the Milk Marketing Board, and I would remind hon. Members of its conclusion, which was:
  "Family income and the price of milk are probably not the main barriers to increased sales. In many cases there are tradition and habit which can be overcome by persistent effort through education and propaganda."
  Mr. J. Griffiths: We have been told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the increase in the prices of welfare milk, and the amount which is being saved. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, as Minister of Health, he has had consultations with his medical advisers, and has struck a balance as to what would be the gain to the nation on one side and the other. Having regard to what we have been told this week by his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture about the continuing fall in the consumption of milk, is not this a false piece of social economy?
  Mr. Vosper: Of course, I took advice before I made this proposal, and I should be very surprised if, in fact, there was any appreciable fall in the consumption of welfare milk.
  Finally, I should like to say a word about school meals. The proposal is to increase their price from 10d. to 1s., which means that towards the cost of them—and today they cost about 1s. 10d.—there will still be a general subsidy of 10d., irrespective of the needs of the parent. It may be said that, for the first time, the price of the school meal will exceed the cost of the food, which today is between 10d. and 11d., but there is nothing sacrosanct about this arrangement, and it seems perfectly reasonable that some contribution should be made towards wages and overheads.
  I would remind the House that where payment of the charge would involve financial hardship, local education authorities may remit it wholly or in part in accordance with arrangements approved by my noble and right hon. Friend the Minister of Education. At present, about 7 per cent. of the school population taking school meals benefit by this provision.
  Having had the good fortune to study the school meals service at close quarters, I am a convinced believer in it, not only on nutritional grounds—and I realise that this is a controversial subject politically—but because of the opportunity it gives for training children in social habits and good manners. Together, in a rather different sense, with the morning assembly, it is a vital part of school life, and I wish that more parents would allow their children to make use of it. From my own experience and that of teachers to whom I have talked, I am quite sure
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  that price is not generally a deterrent. At 10d., and soon at Is., it represents extremely good value—[Interruption.] Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on both sides would do well if they could get an equivalent meal in the canteens of this House at a cost of 1s.
  The reasons why half the children do not take the school meals but prefer to go home are clearly set out in the Ministry of Education Report of an Inquiry into the Working of the School Meals Service published last year. I will not weary the House by giving the reasons, but if hon. Members will read it they will find that price is the least of all the reasons given, and I think that this Reports destroys much of the opposition to the charge increase which has just been announced
  The increase will save the Exchequer about £3½ million a year, but the cost to the Exchequer in a full year will still be about £31½ million. That saving must be see n against the vast increase in educational expenditure, which is some 60 per cent. above that level of the year 1951–52. Once again, it seems good sense to reduce a general and indiscriminate subsidy so as to enable expansion in education to proceed in other directions
  The Motion, as I understand it, suggests that these measures proposed by this Government are likely to undermine the social services in so far as they are designed to meet the greatest need. The evidence at my disposal suggests that they will contribute to the furtherance of the present policy of raising living standards and of ensuring that resources available for the social services are used to the best advantage
  Hon. Members who are interested in this debate may have seen in The Times of Thursday of last week a most interesting and factual survey entitled "Social Payments." In this survey, reference is made to all the measures which should be the object of this debate, and the following question is posed:
  "Is all this a plot to reduce the workers' standard of living, or is it an operation keeping charges in step with consumers' incomes and effecting reasonable economies which will help check inflation and reduce taxes?"
  In answering this question, the survey rightly states that a fair answer can be given only by surveying the whole trend of wages and of charges falling on them. This it does, and shows that at existing

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  rents, rates and charges the average wage-earner's spendable income at present buys 18 to 20 per cent. more than in 1948——
  Mr. J. Griffiths: His outgoings have gone up.
  Mr. Vosper: I do not think that I need go into that now.
  The survey says of this:
  " Much the greater proportion of this gain has occurred under Cory rule."
  The increase in charges will reduce this by less than 1 per cent and that of rents by, perhaps, 3½ per cent The survey goes on:
  "Two years' advance in productivity should entirely make good both losses. Indeed, since one purpose of the first cut is to charge the citizen a little more as consumer of social services in order to charge him a little less as taxpayer, it could be offset at once by small reductions in taxes affecting the mass of ordinary families Even if that is not done this year, the cut is defensible as a price worth paying, if in fact it helps to check inflation and to promote a steadier advance in productivity."
  This survey was conducted by The Times, and I have referred to it because the right hon. Lady and her hon. Friends might consider it less partisan than any views of mine. Nevertheless, it confirms what I hope will result from these measures which, in themselves will, no doubt, he unpopular, but which will continue the improvements in living conditions which I have argued are clearly visible. I therefore ask the House to reject this Motion and to support instead a policy which seeks to maintain and develop the social services whilst limiting the increasing burden on the taxpayer.
  4.59 p.m.
  Miss Alice Bacon: I am sure that on this side of the House we have all listened with considerable interest to the right hon. Gentleman, but I do not think that what he has just told us will in any way allay our suspicions about the future. All the cuts which the Government have recently announced will cause hardship to individual families. That has already been stressed, and, although it is extremely important, I do not want, in the few moments at my disposal, to stress that so much as to concentrate on the policy behind these cuts, and the present trend of the Government in regard to the social services.
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  It is quite true that more money in £. s. d. has been spent in the last few years, but it is obvious that there has been a great increase in population and that prices and wages have been rising. Indeed, on 19th February, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced some of these cuts, he said quite specifically that the increase of £146 million for the social services over the original Estimates was due to higher prices, salaries and wages and more children.
  If we look at the Guillebaud Report, we find that the Committee says quite specifically that, if we have regard to increases in costs, the actual cost per head of the National Health Service in 1953–54 was the same as in 1949–50. Indeed, the Guillebaud Report goes even further than that and says that if we measure the cost of the National Health Service as a proportion of our total national resources, between the same two dates the actual percentage had gone down from 3¾ per cent. to 3¼per cent. I do not know whether there are any up-to-date figures as to what the percentage was for 1956–57, but that was the position then as reported by the Committee.
  It is absolutely plain that, although the expenditure on the social services in £s. d. might have increased in the last few years, the policy of the Government with regard to the social services is not a progressive one, but is in many ways a reactionary policy. I should like to give one or two examples, and I take, first of all, the school meals service to which the right hon. Gentleman has just referred. The increase of 2d. brings the price of the school meal to 1s. a day, which is 5s. a week per child in each household. This is to save £3½million. The right hon. Gentleman said that there may be other reasons why children prefer not to stay at school for their meals. There may be some individual children or parents who, for reasons other than the price of the meal, prefer the meal to be had at home, but surely the right hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that a very large number of children do not stay at school because of the price of the meal? It is quite certain that many children today go home very long distances to their midday meal because of the cost of the school meal.
  Mr. Vosper: Perhaps I might quote a passage from the Report to which I referred. The question was put to 756

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  teachers, of whom 326 said that the reason for not taking the meal was,
  "There is a midday dinner at home and the parents like the children home for it."
  A further 173 teachers said,
  "Children are 'faddy' and do not like the meals provided."
  A further 90 said,
  "Dinners are unpopular because they are brought in containers,"
  and 74 teachers gave as the reason, "Dining conditions are bad." Out of the 756 teachers to whom the question was directed, only 93 gave as the reason for children not taking the school meal as
  "Parents are not prepared to pay the charge."
  Miss Bacon: From my own experience, which is quite considerable in this matter, as I shall explain, I am quite certain that thousands of children in this country do not stay to school meals precisely because of the charge.
  It has been argued by the Minister that the school meals service is another example of a subsidy which is indiscriminate. It is argued that, because the service is available only to certain children of certain families who attend certain schools, and as it is an indiscriminate subsidy, there is something unfair about it. I will grant that there is a measure of truth in that; I am perfectly well aware that if the children of Mrs. Jones can go to a school where there is a school meal provided, Mrs. Jones can take advantage of the subsidy, whereas if the children of Mrs. Smith go to a school where there is no school meals service, Mrs. Smith cannot take advantage of it. But, surely, the remedy is not to raise the price of the school meal, but to make it possible for the Smiths to have the advantage of the school meals service as well as the Jones family.
  What is the Government's policy with regard to the school meals service? Are we to press ahead and expand it? What has happened to the idea we used to have, that there should be a free school meal for every child as part of family allowances? We used to say that family allowances should be paid partly in cash and partly in kind, and through an expanding school meals service we should make available to every child a free
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  school meal as part of our social services and family allowances. What is the Government's intention? Are we really pressing ahead, or are we just going to let it dwindle away?
  I fully agree with the right hon. Gentleman, in this perhaps more than in anything else he has ever said, when he says that there is more in the school meals service than the actual meal itself. As every teacher knows, there is a great deal in having the meal at school. Many local authorities employ dieticians. The meal is well balanced. But, apart from that, as the right hon. Gentleman said, there is a certain social value in children eating together. I have had two memorable experiences concerned with the school meals service. The first was at the time when a school meals service was inaugurated in what was then the very strict mining town of Featherstone in Yorkshire, a town which is known in history for many things, including the occasion when strikers were shot upon by soldiers. I well remember the occasion when we had to open what was nothing more than a soup kitchen and trail the children nearly half a mile to partake of a midday meal. That was one way of providing school meals. The other experience was when a school meals service was inaugurated in a brand new school where the children were able to sit at tables, eight or ten to a table, and be served out of tureens and with proper utensils. I believe there was a great deal of training in that, quite apart from the dietetic value of the meal.
  I want now to refer to the increase of 10d. in the contribution for National Insurance. My right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), who is not in his place at the moment, knows that I have always been very critical of a flat rate contributory system of payment for National Insurance. I have never liked it because it has, in my view, been the most unfair method possible for paying the contributions. Not only does it mean that poor and rich alike pay the same nominal amount, but it means, in fact, that, because the National Insurance contribution is allowed as an expense for Income Tax purposes, the person with the bigger income pays less than someone with a smaller income. That is sometimes overlooked when we talk about the stamps which are paid for each week.

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  To put an extra 10d. on the contribution means that the only person who will in fact pay the full 8½d. which the employee is called upon to pay is the person with such a low wage or such a large family that he does not pay Income Tax at all, whereas the person with the higher income will be able to set off the 10d. against expenses for Income Tax purposes. Thus, the inequality in the previous contribution, which I have never liked anyway, will be accentuated.
  While 10d. was the part of the National Insurance contribution which went to the National Health Service, the National Health Service has always been regarded as a non-contributory scheme. I think it was the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself who, when he announced this increase of 10d., said that the contributory factor for the National Health Service would now be one-ninth instead of one-seventeenth. That is rather important. The Government have said—and it has been repeated again this afternoon—that the Health Service will not in any way be cut. Today, there has been a kind of implied rejection of putting any further charge for this service on taxation. The only conclusion, therefore, is that if we spend more on the Health Service in future, more will be put on the weekly contribution paid by each contributor.
  I regard that with great misgiving, and for this reason. I believe that if more is to be paid by contributions towards the Health Service, there is a danger that the service will soon cease to be non-contributory and will become a contributory service. It is a very small step from this to saying that only those paying contributions will get the benefits. I hope we are not going towards a situation where, before anybody is taken away in an ambulance, somebody will inquire how many stamps he has on his card. This is a matter of fundamental importance and we ought to know just where the Government are going.
  There is something else which I rather deplore in recent statements. Up to now, the National Health Service has been regarded as universal. Recently, the Yorkshire Evening Post, which is the mouthpiece of the Conservative Party, because it is controlled by the Yorkshire Conservative Newspaper Company, Ltd.,
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  was commenting on the results of the Warwick and Leamington by-election. It was, of course, an editorial full of apologies why the by-election had not produced better results for the party opposite. This is what it says, and I was filled with horror when I read it:
  "It is all a question of means: unpopular means. For instance, Lord Hailsham's dark hint that the social services are going to mean bigger contributions will cost votes inevitably. But that is not the point. The point is whether Government policy is right."
  It goes on to say:
  "The truth is that at the moment wages have never been so high, yet the high wage-earners are receiving massive free benefits of various sorts which are met out of taxation. The Conservatives have been trying to bring sense to this situation. We are taxed to death to provide free benefits for people who are quite well paid. Subsidies should he for the needy, not for everybody."
  [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Members opposite are saying "Hear, hear." This is the crux of the whole situation. Are we, in fact, to regard our great social services as subsidies for the needy, or are we to regard them as universal, to which everybody pays and from which everybody can draw? It was on that basis that they were created from 1945 to 1950.
  We always knew that the party opposite did not like some of the social legislation that we inaugurated. I am very much afraid that if we get the idea that the National Health Service in particular is a sort of poor man's service, a kind of subsidy to be given only to those in need, we shall get a first-class service and a second-class service; and that will not be good for the country. Let me warn hon. and right hon. Members opposite that in the last few years it is not only the working-class people who have been glad of the National Health Service. It has been the middle classes too.
  Mr. Robson Brown: I am interested in the hon. Lady's argument concerning payment and the payment of one scale by some salary earners as against another scale for other incomes. Would the hon. Lady develop further what she has in mind? At the moment, there is a flat rate of payment irrespective of the salary earned. Is the hon. Lady suggesting a poundage related to earnings?
  Miss Bacon: There is a great deal to be said for that. I do not want to elaborate it at the moment, because it is a big question. What I have said is that I have always regarded, and still regard, the flat-rate weekly payment, particularly when it is chargeable to expenses for Income Tax purposes, as a most unfair way of paying for our National Insurance benefits.
  Mention has been made of education. I do not want to go into great detail today except to re-emphasise what my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mrs. Slater) said last week concerning the additional £5 million, which is not an increase in school building but is the restoration of a £5 million cut made last year.
  We are fearful of what will happen about education in the future. We have already been told that local authorities are to receive a block grant for their requirements instead of a percentage grant. Education is our greatest local service. If the block grant, instead of a percentage grant, is aimed at any service at all, it is aimed, therefore, at education, for that is the greatest local authority service to which the Government contribute.
  Local authorities all over the country fear what is to happen. Although last week we pressed the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education to give an assurance to the House that no local authority would receive less under the block grant scheme than under the percentage grant scheme, we could not get that assurance from the hon. Gentleman. It seems to me that unless we are very careful, the block grant method will be a means of keeping down the education Estimates without the Government actually having to announce a cut in the service. We on this side will be particularly vigilant when the matter comes up for discussion, because we see here a backdoor method of trying to cut our education services.
  After the war, we built up a system of social services that was never liked by the party opposite. That party has occasionally paid lip service to them, but we know that hon. Members opposite have never liked the social services which we inaugurated. Now, they are trying to undermine the principles on which they have been built.
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  Why have we had these cuts lately? Is it to prepare the way for a gift to the Surtax payers in the next Budget? Some of us suspect that that is the case. Although the Minister of Health has said that no further burden will fall on the taxpayer, we on this side believe that Income Tax is the most equitable form of taxation, because it falls heaviest on those most able to bear it.
  Mr. Vosper: Perhaps I should make it clear that the increase in the Estimates for the Health Services for 1957–58 will be £49 million over last year. There will be some saving, but only partially, because of the Health Service contribution, but there will certainly be an increase on taxation.
  Miss Bacon: It will not be very much. because we were told that the extra 10d. will mean an increase of £40 million; so the difference would be very small.
  We have seen the cutting down of the school meals service. We have seen the difficulties with the doctors, to which my right hon. Friend has referred today. We have seen the plight of the old people, about which the Government are not prepared to do anything. We have seen what has happened to the prescription charges, and we fear what will happen to education and to the cost of living as a result of the Rent Bill. The party opposite said in its last election address that in twenty-five years it would double the standard of living. If we are not very careful, and hon. Members opposite remain in office much longer, it will be the cost of living that is doubled and not the standard of living.
  Those who have had an opportunity in recent by-elections of registering a vote have shown quite clearly that they are not at the back of the Government in the measures that they have undertaken. It is sometimes argued on the benches opposite and by Tory newspapers that it is because the country does not understand the measures which the Government are undertaking. It seems to me that it is because the people understand quite clearly what is happening that they are rejecting the Government. I hope, therefore, that the House will reject the Motion and give the Government notice to get out as quickly as possible.
  5.20 p.m.
  Sir Keith Joseph: It is a pleasure to me to follow the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) in her remarks because I have the honour of sharing with her the representation of part of Leeds in the House. She is known as sincere and expert on her subject and, although I shall have cause to cross swords with her later on certain matters, there were points in her speech which were worthy subjects of debate. It was, however, a great disappointment to listen to the opening speech of the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill). Seldom have I heard or read a more negative and unconstructive speech from someone who is avowedly an expert. She obviously had to pad out a thoroughly inadequate cause with reminiscences and the bringing up of grievances which, while legitimate, such as complaints about the cost of proprietary drugs, have nothing whatsoever in common with the purport of the Motion.
  It is true that the right hon. Lady concentrated on health, but it would be impossible to gather from her speech that when the Socialists were in office they had exactly the same problems as those with which the present Government are now grappling. Members of the then Government had the courage at the time to come before the House and argue in favour of charges on prescriptions and on costs of the Health Service with speeches of thorough good sense, but they lacked the guts to carry those things out.
  No one would realise from the right hon. Lady's speech that during the Socialists' tenure of office the average cost of each prescription doubled and that now, under a Tory administration, every single service, whether health or insurance, has increased in real terms for the benefit of the public. No one would judge from her speech that the poorest families in the country are entitled to reclaim through the National Assistance Board all the charges which are being imposed by the Government.
  Dr. Summerskill: Would the hon. Member define "poorest families"?
  Sir K. Joseph: Only too gladly, because that is a subject to which I want to return later. We define them by a subsistence scale judged by an independent body, the National Assistance Board.
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  I want to make further reference to the right hon. Lady's speech. No one would judge from it that a Government which she represented never touched family allowances from the date when they were introduced by an all-party Government in 1946, and that it took a Tory administration to raise family allowances twice, particularly for the benefit of large families.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: The hon. Member should get his facts right. It was not an all-party Government in 1946.
  Sir K. Joseph: I stand corrected. It was a Tory Government.
  Mr. Griffiths: The hon. Member had better get his dates right. It was a Labour Government in 1946.
  Sir K. Joseph: In fact, it was a Tory Government that introduced family allowances.
  Mr. Griffiths: We had better get our history right. The Family Allowances Act was introduced on Second Reading in the House not by the Caretaker Government but by the Coalition Government, when Labour was part of that Government and the Minister was a Labour Member. It was brought into effect in 1946 when I was Minister of National Insurance.
  Sir K. Joseph: It was brought in by a Coalition Government.
  No one would judge from the right hon. Lady's speech that if the Socialist Party were in power rents would have to be increased to solve the housing problem, just as they are to be increased by the Tory Government. The right hon. Lady had difficulty in finding substance for her speech and, therefore, she had to return to her hobby-horse—the cost of ethical drugs.
  Dr. Summerskill: The hon. Member must learn these things. "Ethical" is not right in that context.
  Mr. Frederic Harris: The right hon. Lady could not learn the difference between butter and margarine at one time.
  Sir K. Joseph: I took the trouble to visit chemists in my constituency and ask about the effect of the raising of the prescription charges. I was told that there was one part of the community which

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  was being injured by it. I think that the hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer) touched on the same subject to which I should like to return.
  It is abundantly clear that the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington does not understand the influence of humanity in the administrative decisions which were taken at the time when these prescription charges were increased. It was specially laid down by the then Minister that he would encourage chemists to make up larger quantities so that the poorer families would have much the same service at the same cost over the year. Although the right hon. Lady found it extraordinary, that is why there were fewer prescriptions at the same cost in January and that is why the Minister says that we can judge the cost only over a year.
  Mr. Shurmer: That is not correct.
  Sir K. Joseph: It is only natural that the right hon. Lady should concentrate on health, because she wanted us to forget that she was for several years the Minister in charge of pensions and that she was the cause, more than anyone else, of the sort of burdens of which she now accuses the present Government. We will not let the right hon. Lady forget it, and her behaviour then was a fair example of something for which she now wrongly indicts the present Government.
  Dr. Summerskill: I was Minister of National Insurance, not Minister of Pensions.
  Sir K. Joseph: If the right hon. Lady thinks that makes any difference in substance, she is welcome to the correction.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East tried to explain the substantial increase in the real resources devoted to the National Health Service and to education by saying that we have had an increase in population since 1951. Of course we have had a million extra. It is now 52 million, and it was then 51 million. Does the hon. Lady pretend that that explains the vast increase in the actual number of nurses, doctors, midwives, health visitors, beds in use, and occupational training centres for mental defectives? I could go through the list of amenities and resources devoted to our social services and show that there has
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  been an actual increase in every one in real terms of people on the ground. How can the hon. Lady make out that cuts have been made in the social services by the present Government?
  The House should not assume, however, that we can pretend that the National Health Service is perfect. It would have better become the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington, with her experience, if she had been more constructive, because there are many problems associated with the services.
  I should like the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East to face the dilemma which she posed. If we are to put more resources into these services, are they to be paid for by taxes, by increased contributions, or by increased charges? The hon. Lady happens to disagree with charges in principle, and good luck to her, but any solution of the problem must be a balance of all these things, and it is not a matter of villainy if the balance sways one way or the other. It would have been totally legitimate for the hon. Lady to say that taxes should go up. Whereas by our method taxation will possibly have to go up to increase the services in due course—though I hope that an expanding economy will enable us to avoid that—we shall also try to secure that those who are best able to bear the burden shall do so. The hon. Lady's Government in 1951 made absolutely plain that the charges must go up not only to relieve taxation, but to discourage abuses.
  Here I come back to the point made by the hon. Member for Sparkbrook. I believe it is true that the prescription charges, and indeed other charges, hurt that class of the community which is just above the subsistence scale of the National Assistance Board, and which is not earning; the fixed income group so gallantly fought for by my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward).
  I am making no new suggestion if I put forward the idea that the time must come when we no longer depend for all our tests on the subsistence scale, however properly worked out and calculated by the National Assistance Board. After all, we already have quite a different test for legal aid. We have quite a different test for assistance to people who send their children to university. We have quite a

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  different test for school meals. So I think there may come a time when people just above that subsistence scale may have to be relieved of health service charges, but only if they are not able to work to earn the necessary money.
  Now I come to a real problem that could properly have been discussed by the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington. The subject I am about to discuss does not involve any extra expenditure. it involves the better use of the resources already on the ground. It seems to me that in this Welfare State there are a large number of excellent welfare islands with bridges built between each of them, but that perhaps these bridges are not as fully used as they might be. In other words, we could do more by co-ordination. This is not just a question of tidying up the National Health Service. It is a question of humanity, of bringing the appropriate part of the health or other services in ample time to the people who most need them. In fact, this is the very heart of good preventive medicine.
  I am not enamoured of the suggestion of a single service, as put forward in the minority report of the Guillebaud Committee. I think that such a vast machine would create far more difficulties than it would cure. I also recognise that there is no panacea for the problem of co-ordination. What we want to arrive at is a very high standard of service, and it may be of interest to right hon. and hon. Members to learn that there are as many as thirty-five different varieties of domiciliary visitor in most towns. That is wonderful—if they all co-ordinate, but do they?
  This is not just a question of an excellent set-up, of a good system. It is more a question of personality and of the actual work that goes on in the street, in the household, in the committee room, rather than of the façade put up by the organisation itself. I realise that the Younghusband Committee is considering this and that we must always respect the privacy of the citizen. Yet I suggest that by coordination a great deal can be done to bring more real humanity into these services.
  Let me give an example from a recent investigation into mental health services of which I had the honour to be chairman. There was a case of a hospital
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  which discharged as cured an elderly blind patient. He was discharged to his home where the hospital thought he would be looked after. In fact his home was occupied by a blind, vindictive and suspicious brother, and the hospital authorities would never have discharged that cured patient to his home had they paid a visit to it beforehand. I am not blaming that hospital. Far be it for me, who merely reads and speaks on these subjects, to blame anyone who devotes a dedicated life to these people, but were our hospital services to be coordinated by the almoners with the local voluntary services, with the activities of the Old People's Welfare Committees, with the activities of the health visitors and mental welfare department visitors, that kind of mistake could not occur.
  I remember also that in the investigation with which I was associated we made a close examination of two precisely comparable local authorities. This was done through field workers. Each had the same population, each had the same type of district and the same rate expenditure on these services. We found that whereas in one local authority the service to the public was excellent, in the other it was much inferior. This was not because some of the people were not humane or conscientious or diligent, but because in one authority they had case conferences every week: there was careful, humane co-ordination between all the people involved. In the other authority they all ran busily about, doing their own jobs, and never getting together.
  I have said that there is no panacea. This problem cannot be solved by dictate of the Minister. Here I will put forward another suggestion that will not involve much expenditure. I would like to see the National Council of Social Service, perhaps helped by the Government in part, setting up a "Social Services Staff College" which would give regular courses to representatives of local councils and especially to representatives of the local Press. For I believe that the local Press, if it knows the standard that can be achieved, will make sure that the citizens of the area know of it also, and so, through our democratic machinery, that standard will be achieved. Such a college might even evolve a system of measuring the efficiency of the social services, providing a kind of social photography to correspond with what, in

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  the economic field, is unit costing. At the moment we do not know for instance, whether better domiciliary visiting would relieve the hospitals of whether it would merely be an extra burden on the community for people who ought to go into hospital anyway.
  We have no means of judging these things, and perhaps a good "Social Services Staff College," with a permanent small staff of its own, inviting visiting lecturers of all kinds, with courses open to councillors and the local Press and others, might provide a valuable weapon in this realm.
  Above all, I want to return to a point made by my right hon. Friend the Minister in his opening speech. He said that we shall never all be satisfied with all we want to achieve unless we have an expanding economy—the greater production to which the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. Griffiths) rightly referred. From that alone can we supply all the demands that this humane country and House wish to give to the people.
  5.37 p.m.
  Mr. Niall MacDermot: I have received advice from many sources and I have been informed that it is the tradition of this House that one's first utterances should be short and non-controversial. It lies easily within my power to make them short; it is perhaps a little more difficult to make them non-controversial on a Motion of this character, but I am most anxious not to offend in this respect. Since joining this House, I have been treated, as I am sure has every hon. Member, with the greatest kindness and courtesy on both sides, and if I offend in any way in that respect, I hope I may be forgiven.
  The election at North Lewisham was the first time I had fought any election, and the first time in which I had the experience that many hon. Members here have had many times. I hope, however, that it will not be thought to be presumptuous on my part if I seek to give an impression to the House of the picture which I have formed as to what people are feeling and thinking now about the questions facing them, and about the record of this Government and the effects of its policies, particularly in relation to the subject matter of this debate.
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  The overriding impression formed is that people are feeling to some extent bewildered and considerably disillusioned by what they feel to be a lack of correspondence between the words and the deeds of the Government; the difference between what the Government said they were going to do, and what they have done. This has shown itself in many matters which are not relevant to the debate. One could develop it in terms of foreign policy, in terms of the Rent Bill, in terms of home ownership and interest charges. But, coming to the present topic, the overwhelming point relates to the cost of living and the social services combined, and the way that those two are inter-related. And, of course, they are closely inter-related, because the greater the pressure of the cost of living, the greater the need for the social services among those for whom they are specially designed. The greater the burden put on poorer people for the cost of the social services, the more they feel the effects of the continuing oppressive burden of the cost of living.
  When the Government first came to power they did so because they had succeeded, amongst other things, in convincing the people of this country that they wholly accepted all that which had been built up during the six years of the Labour Government in terms of the social services, which was sometimes called the Welfare State. They had convinced the country that they not only accepted the structure of it but that they also accepted the principles on which it was based. I was glad to observe that the Prime Minister, in his magnanimous way, in his first broadcast just after becoming Prime Minister identified himself with these achievements of the Labour Government, saying, "We have built up our defences against want and sickness and we are proud of it."
  What I think is happening is that people are now beginning to be disturbed and anxious about the future of these social services and where the burden of them is to lie. The problem resolves itself into this very simple question: are the social services to be maintained and, if so, who is to pay for them? Fine phrases about building an Opportunity State and giving greater opportunities to the bold, the strong and the adventurous, do not help to solve this problem. If the bold and the

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  strong and the adventurous are to be relieved of some of the burden and given greater opportunities, does that mean that the burden is to fall on the timid and the weak and those whose occupations give them no opportunity for adventures? The truth is that for the vast majority of the working population there is no opportunity to be bold and adventurous in their work. Indeed, if they tried to be bold and adventurous they would probably get the sack.
  The simple question is, how are these things to be paid for, assuming for the moment that they are to be maintained? They can either be paid for directly by the consumer, which is the principle introduced to some extent with the prescription charges, or they can be paid for by insurance contributions or by general taxation. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) in her view about the relative rightness of insurance contributions and general taxation as the source for financing the social services and with the reasons which she gave, but what is clearly happening by these most recent developments—and this is the whole subject matter of the Motion—is that an increasing burden is being placed on those who are least able to bear it.
  The hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) rightly said that the people who are suffering most under the present measures are those who are immediately above the subsistence level. I do not wish to weary the House with individual cases, for I am sure that all hon. Members are well aware of individual cases amongst their own constituents, but I should like to give one which came to my attention recently. It concerns a lady who was an old-age pensioner, but, as her husband was working part-time, she did not qualify for National Assistance. She called in the doctor and he made one diagnosis and prescribed four items of medicine which cost her 4s. to buy. He called again later in the week and discovered that his first diagnosis was wrong. He made a second diagnosis, which fortunately proved right, and gave another prescription containing three further items. The result was that in one week this lady was burdened with a charge of 7s. To someone just above the subsistence level that is a very heavy burden indeed.
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  It is not merely that it is a heavy burden on her it strikes at the root of the whole principle of the National Health Service, which is that people should not have the additional financial burden put on them at the very moment that they are least able to bear it, namely, when they are afflicted with sickness.
  We have to consider not merely the burden on the people but also the effect which these charges have on the administration of the National Health Service. There was a report in the newspapers recently of speeches made by the chemists at their annual conference. I have forgotten the name of the organisation. Many chemists from all over the country spoke and gave figures of the total reduction in the number of prescriptions which had taken place since the charges were increased. I think the average reduction was 20 to 25 per cent., but one chemist from Huddersfield spoke in terms of a reduction of 60 per cent. These reductions were undoubtedly the result of the increased prescription charges.
  We have also to consider the increase in the charge for school meals. Again, people just above the subsistence level are most affected by this. I was surprised during my by-election campaign by the number of cases—not merely one or two—of parents who told me that as a result of the previous increase in the charges for school meals they had been compelled to make their children walk to school where previously they had taken buses. I have not yet had an opportunity to find out what the result of this further increase will be, but if they were led to those measures on the last occasion. I can only conclude that there is now serious risk that the children will not be able to have the school meals.
  All this is on the assumption that, basically, the social services are to remain, but one may perhaps call this, too, into question. During the North Lewisham by-election the Minister of Education, Lord Hailsham, came to Lewisham and gave one of his vigorous speeches. If he was correctly reported—and, of course, he may not have been—in the Daily Mail the next day, he outlined this broad idea of the Opportunity State which seems to form the subject of so many Conservative speeches at the moment and said that he envisaged a picture of bigger incentives and bigger

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  rewards for professional men and skilled men. He went on to say:
  "But there may also be a scaling down of welfare services because they will no longer be necessary."
  The Prime Minister informed the House last week that Lord Hailsham always talked sense and that it was for that reason that he had appointed him Minister of Education. I should be interested to learn from the Minister who replies to the debate, as I think will other hon. Members, whether it is the view of the Government that there are welfare services which are no longer necessary and may have to be scaled down for that reason. If there are, we should be very interested to know which services are no longer necessary, and no longer necessary for whom?
  I see that in the new National Insurance Bill which has been published there is a Clause providing for cuts in unemployment benefit for people on short time. Is that one of the welfare services which is thought to be no longer necessary? It is a cut which will cause heavy suffering if and when we have another crop of short-time working such as that which we have seen recently in the motor industry.
  One of the most alarming features about the whole of this trend is the emphasis which is placed more and more on the extension of the principle of the means test. We have heard it said—and it has been said already in the debate several times—that the poorest classes will be able to recover prescription charges from the National Health Service and that they will get the welfare milk free. The Minister of Housing and Local Government, when answering Questions at Question time recently about interest rates and the withdrawal of subsidies as they affected the housing programmes of local authorities, said that if local authorities introduced differential rent schemes they would find it easier to continue their housing programmes—again, an extension of the means test principle. If this is to be the policy and if this is the way in which payment for the social services is to be extended, it will cut fundamentally at the root of the whole principle of the social services, because people quite rightly regard the means test as being an humiliation and compelling
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  them to turn to charity for something which they regard as being their right.
  The principle of the social services is opposed fundamentally to this notion of charity. The principle, of course, is that everyone contributes either through taxation or through insurance contributions to the services and that everyone is entitled to the benefit of them. If it is to be the policy of the Government to say that more and more people must pay directly for the services as they get them, and if the burden becomes too heavy on them they must turn to the National Assistance Board, then they are striking at the whole principle. It is this trend which, I respectfully suggest, is one of the reasons which is leading people to feel that the Government in their actions and in their policies are getting fundamentally out of touch with the situation as it affects the ordinary people of the country.
  I should like to conclude with one instance, although I promised not to weary the House with particular instances. I remember vividly calling at the prefabricated bungalow of one householder and asking how she intended to vote. Her answer, given in a rather weary voice, was, "The last time I voted Conservative, but this time I will vote for you." Then she added, "They just do not seem to understand; they do not realise what life is like for people like us." I only quote that because I believe that that woman, in those simple phrases, expressed what very many people in this country are feeling today, and it helps to explain why it is that the Member for Lewisham, North now sits on this side of the House.
  5.53 p.m.
  Sir Spencer Summers: I have been in this House for a considerable time, but I have never had the honour to be called immediately after an hon. Gentleman who has delivered himself of his maiden speech. I have always been rather concerned lest when that occasion arose I should find some difficulty in expressing sincerely the traditional congratulations from the next speaker, but I should like to say to the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) that the speech that we have heard from him this afternoon relieves me of all anxiety, because I can with the utmost possible sincerity congratulate him on the

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  way in which he has discharged his responsibility. I noticed that he appeared to have considerable notes to fortify him for the task, but I was not aware that he looked at them at all. Indeed, I think everyone would agree that as we listened it was very hard to imagine that he had not already spoken on many occasions in the House. He obviously has thought much about the subject and I am sure that we shall all look forward with the greatest interest and find it an agreeable occasion when next he feels disposed to try to catch Mr. Speaker's eye.
  In the speech of the hon. Member for Lewisham, North and in other speeches there was regret that there seemed to be a tendency to move towards the element of direct charges, and in that I include contributions, and away from taxation for the financing of a number of these social services. The hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) went to the length of saying that this tendency frightened her very much because she feared that the day might come when only those who were in compliance, so to speak, would have the benefits of the National Health Service if so much stress was increasingly placed on the contributory element in the situation.
  I think that the hon. Lady could not have listened very attentively to the speech of the Minister earlier in the debate because he made it quite clear that even after the increases in recent times which are challenged in this Motion, the proportion derived from the taxpayer to finance a number of the services is at least as great and in most cases greater than when the system was first started. We learned that the proportion in the National Health Service had gone up from about 72 per cent. to about 75 per cent., and that the proportion of public help for welfare milk and school meals was still not less than 50 per cent. There is, therefore, no evidence to support the suggestion that there is a trend away from the taxpayer to the contributor in the relative proportions in which those services are financed.
  I want to draw attention to one particular point which seemed to be in marked contrast to the views that we have heard from the other side, notably from
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  the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), on this question of the contributory element. The hon. Lady to whom I have referred feared that if the individual personal contribution became too significant there was a fear that the beneficiary would be asked if he was in compliance. The hon. Member for Sowerby, on the other hand, feared the absence of the contributory factor from the individual in retirement pensions and that only those who deserved the pension would, in fact, be entitled to it unless the element of contribution, carrying with it the element of right, was forcibly maintained. I think that it is therefore quite appropriate for me to call in evidence against the hon. Lady the evidence of the hon. Member for Sowerby, namely, the importance which the element of contribution must play in ensuring that the benefits shall be available for all.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: Surely that is not a fair compromise when we consider that both these matters are quite different. The hon. Lady was arguing in relation to the Health Service where there is supposed to be the idea of giving services in accordance with needs, irrespective of the moneys available or of cash payments, whereas the hon. Member for Sowerby was arguing the case in relation to old age pensioners and the contributions linked thereto. These are two entirely different principles. That was the whole point of the hon. Lady's interruption.
  Sir S. Summers: The hon. Gentleman might choose to regard them as quite contrary, but the principle to which I am drawing attention is namely, that the element of contribution which is inherent in the Health Service as we now know it enables the system to dispense with a means test and it is the element of contribution in the retirement pensions which enables us to dispense with the means test there also.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: This is a rather important matter which we expect the Minister to say something about. As the hon. Members knows, the cash benefits of the National Insurance scheme are related to contributions directed to the National Health Service with all its provisions financed out of taxation. Is the hon. Member suggesting that the right

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  to have service under the National Health Service is to be conditioned by the contributory provisions?
  Sir S. Summers: Evidently I have not succeeded in making myself clear. If we swing the pendulum in the direction which the hon. Lady appears to wish it to go, to finance the Health Service entirely out of taxation, there would be a genuine fear in my mind at any rate that it would become so expensive that one of these days the benefits of that Health Service would be denied to certain people on the grounds that they could well afford to pay for it themselves.
  I want to take up the time of the House for a very few minutes on two points. Firstly, we have to look afresh at the whole system, for a variety of reasons. We have found that providing help under the Health Service in modern conditions is becoming increasingly expensive, because science is providing increasingly expensive ways of helping the sick. We are finding that pension benefits are becoming increasingly expensive, because in the years that lie ahead, the number of old people who will draw benefit will increase.
  Whichever direction we look, it seems that there is an ever-growing range of additional expenditure in the social services. We must be very careful that we do not allow the whole system to break down by going on exactly as before, without ensuring that those who in the name of common sense ought to derive benefit from our social services are denied it, because they cannot get proper benefits if everybody is dealt with exactly as before.
  The broad principle which should guide us in these matters is that the normal running expenses of life should fall upon the people individually concerned and that they should, by insurance and joining together, protect themselves from the major hazards of life, be it old age when they can no longer earn wages. a serious operation which would be a calamity for people with modest incomes, or matters of that kind. In those ways people should feel assured of protection against life's major hazards, but the ordinary running expenses, and I include spectacles and the like, should be the responsibility of the individuals concerned.
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  I qualify that in one respect, a notable one to which our attention was drawn by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph). It is that those who are just above subsistence level, and so denied the benefit of National Assistance, should be helped to cope with some of these situations. It may be that something is needed in that respect in keeping with the point I am making.
  If I am justified in arguing that the normal running expenses of life should properly fall upon the individuals concerned, then a major mistake was made when the system of family allowances was introduced in the form in which we now know it. I have always supported the principle of family allowances on the grounds—no doubt similar to those which commended themselves to Lord Beveridge—that unless there were some system for helping people with large families, it would not be possible to make a commonsense plan for sickness, unemployment and old age. When the system of family allowances was started, it was decided to exempt the first child. I do not believe that that decision can be justified.
  I want to argue that it is perfectly reasonable to tell parents that they ought to be capable, through their own skill and the wit of the breadwinner, if necessary assisted by his wife, to look after two children without assistance from other folk. If that were done, there would be at the disposal of the social service system as we know it, with one qualification to which I shall refer in a moment, no less than £70 million annually. That is what is provided by the taxpayer for the second child of every family.
  It is, I think, a most unwise use of a system of social service to spend so much within the system in that way. If the benefit of 8s. for the second child were discontinued, the benefit for the third and subsequent children should perhaps be greater than it now is. It is now 10s. If it were increased to 12s., about £8 million would have to be deducted from the £70 million to which I have referred. One other deduction would have to be made. If one is to have a sense of perspective, it is only right that this should also be mentioned. That deduction would be in respect of those who are sick or unemployed and who, quite properly, have the right of additional benefits for their children.

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  That benefit is now graduated to take account of the present system of family allowances. If the system of family allowances were drastically changed, as I am recommending, by no longer paying benefit for the second child, there would have to be increases for the second child of people who are unemployed or sick to take account of that change. I am advised that the cost of so doing would be about £4 million annually.
  Therefore, between £55 million and £60 million would be available for other purposes in the social services. It is not very long since the House had a debate, the essence of which, at any rate as put from the other side of the House, was that too little is being done for old people. No doubt the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) will echo that sentiment. If people who are now drawing about £70 million from funds provided by the taxpayer could be persuaded in the name of justice that they should go without that until they are old—when it would be much more appropriate that the taxpayers' money should be accorded to them than it is when they are in the prime of life—it would be much easier to put across this plan.
  Mr. George Craddock: Is not the hon. Member making an argument for large families rather than family allowances?
  Sir S. Summers: I do not think that anything I have said is in favour of large families, though I have always regretted that I was not a member of a larger family. What I am saying is that a large family should be considered to be one of more than two children, instead of more than one child, which is the present position.
  If my suggestion were adopted, the sums released by the change could be deployed for the benefit of the old. I have made certain calculations, which may need adjustment, but which show by and large that, if the sums thus released were made available for only retirement pensioners, it would be possible to increase the retirement pension by nearly 6s. a week, which is a really significant figure. On the other hand, if it were thought more appropriate, particularly in the name of those who need it most, to use the phrase of the Motion, to devote the money to an improvement in the position of those on
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  National Assistance, it would be possible to increase the present figure by about 10s. a week. The point I should like hon. Members on both sides—and especially on the Front Benches—to take note of is that there is a great deal to be said for withholding the benefit now paid to families for the second child and using the resources made available to better advantage in the field of social services.
  6.10 p.m.
  Mr. Donald Wade: This has been a very interesting debate, and some very valuable and sincere contributions have been made, but I feel that there has been an atmosphere of unreality about it. The Motion which we are discussing makes no reference to one of the main causes of our difficulties, and of our failure to make the improvements in our social services which most of us would desire. I refer to inflation.
  The major issue is not between those who support the social services and those who are against them, or between those who are anxious not to place an increasing burden upon those least able to bear it, and those who do not care. If that were the main conflict I should spend my time in advocating wholehearted support for the maintenance of the social services. As I see it, however, the main problem is the effect of inflation and the decline in value of money upon our attempts to uphold and improve the social services.
  A leading article in The Times today says:
  "British social payments, our Correspondent showed, are low by international standards—and so are insurance contributions. Inflation continually whittles away the purchasing power the nation intended the pensioner to command. The challenge this presents has so far been faced by neither party nor has the experience of other nations trying to meet It been examined."
  There is a great deal of truth in that. Inflation works adversely in two ways. First, it results in an inevitable increase in total Government expenditure, because everyone who is employed has to be paid more, and all materials cost more. At the same time the benefits, in terms of cash, are worth less to the recipient.
  There is a danger that the whole edifice will be undermined. It was with that consideration in view that my right

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  hon. and learned Friend, my hon. Friends and myself tabled an Amendment which, I understand, will not be called. Its purpose was to draw attention to the failure of all post-war Governments to prevent the undermining of our social services by continuous inflation and, at the same time, to call for a comprehensive review of the functions and scope of social services, the modern needs which they should cover, and the economic requirements to meet them.
  I know that hon. Members are placed in a difficulty in this matter. I am aware of the pressure which is continually put upon them. Every week, if not every day, I receive letters from one or other body appealing for support. It is very difficult not to say "Yes" to every appeal, but if the Government did, the burden placed upon the taxpayer and contributor would be so great that the whole structure of our social services would break down. That is the problem which must be faced. We must examine the whole question of the essential functions of social services.
  I wish that the Government had thought fit to take a somewhat unorthodox course and support the Amendment to which I have referred. It would have involved admitting that this Government, as well as previous Administrations, have failed to check inflation, but had that course been adopted, when members of the general public opened their newspapers tomorrow morning they would have said, "For once we have a Government which is 100 per cent. honest". Alternatively, if the Opposition had accepted the Amendment the same remark might have been applied to them. That would have helped to meet some of the prevailing cynicism which unfortunately exists about Parliament and Members of Parliament in particular.
  Mr. Ross: And about Carmarthen in particular.
  Mr. Wade: We have asked for a review partly in order that we might be given an objective answer about the minimum below which no one should be allowed to fall owing to sickness, unemployment or old age. The principle was set out very clearly by Lord Beveridge in his famous Report. I have been reading it again. The material words are:
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  "The fourth fundamental principle is adequacy of benefit in amount and time. The flat rate of benefit proposed is intended in itself to be sufficient without further resources to provide the minimum income needs for subsistence in all normal cases."
  Unfortunately, inflation has played havoc with the proposals set out in the Report. It is a little sad to recall the enthusiasm and hope which the publication of that Report aroused throughout the country and then to reflect upon the difficulty which many old people experience today in trying to make ends meet.
  I have also been reading the report of the speech made by the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) when he moved the Second Reading of the National Insurance Bill. He said:
  "The House will be aware that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has expressed the Government's intention to hold the cost of living at about 31 per cent, over the September. 1939, level. We have decided, therefore, to review the leading rates proposed in the White Paper and in the Beveridge Report on the basis of an overall addition of 31 per cent. instead of 25 per cent. The result was to establish a basic rate of 42s. for a couple living together, with 26s, for a single adult …. I believe that we have in this way. endeavoured to give a broad subsistence basis to the leading rates, within the framework of a contributory insurance scheme."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th February, 1946; Vol. 418, c. 1742.]
  Unfortunately, all that has gone by the board as a result of the changing value of money. Money values have fallen faster than the rate at which basic rates have increased. The cost of living figures have been quoted many times, and I do not propose to burden the House with saying much about them. I believe that hon. Members are well aware of the fall that has taken place in the value of the £. Taking its value as 20s. in September, 1946, it was worth only 12s. 7d. in December, 1956. But I have tried to ascertain the extent to which the cost of the social services generally has gone up. While I will not weary the House with a lot of figures, I have taken some calculations from the Blue Book on National Income and Expenditure, 1956.
  If one takes housing, education and child care, school meals, milk and welfare foods, health and National Insurance Pensions and Assistance, one arrives at a total of £1,932 million for 1950. The corresponding figure for 1955 is £2,692 million. But I have deducted housing, as, there is an element of dispute about whether that should come under the

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  heading of social services. I have also deducted the proportion paid by local authorities which has increased considerably. That leaves a figure of £490 million difference between 1950 and 1955.
  I think it fair to say that the cost of the social services has risen at the rate of approximately £100 million a year. Yet, in spite of that, we have many people who are feeling the pinch, particularly among the old people who are unable to manage on the amounts they receive. That is a tragic state of affairs. It is largely due to the failure to check inflation. I suggest that we have to attempt to make a new start. We have to consider what is now the minimum below which no one should be allowed to fall as a result of unemployment, ill-health or old-age, that is, a review of the minimum proposed by Lord Beveridge in his Report.
  Secondly, we have to consider as objectively as possible what are the essential requirements which on no account must we allow to be dispensed with. In saying that, I am not suggesting that we should not endeavour to improve the social services.
  Thirdly, I think we should consider to what extent we may encourage self-help. Lord Beveridge in his Report made clear that he favoured the encouragement of self-help. He never intended that the effect of the social services should be to discourage saving, for example. I have discussed that subject with him personally and I know that is his view. If time permitted, I should like to elaborate on this to show how I think the minimum could be calculated; how inflation might be checked and self-help encouraged, but it would take a long time to do that adequately.
  Turning from the general to the particular, may I refer to one aspect of self-help, namely, the various voluntary schemes for superannuation. I admit that this is only one aspect and I know that in some quarters voluntary superannuation schemes are criticised. I think they are criticised wrongly on one ground and rightly on another. It is sometimes said that the State gives away a lot in the shape of tax remission and that that is unfair. I take the view that that is outweighed by the advantages. In the first place, the effect is to draw a certain percentage of people out of the category of potential recipients of National Assistance. Secondly, it encourages saving, and
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  thirdly, it makes large funds available for investment.
  Whether the right people have those funds or whether they are rightly invested is another matter which I should be happy to discuss on another occasion, but, on balance, I think that voluntary superannuation schemes are of value to the community as a whole. There is another criticism which I think is justified, that is that the benefits are not easily transferred, and mobility of labour is in many cases deterred because of that. The scheme is so drawn that there is a discouragement to people to move from one form of employment to another. In fact, obstacles are put in the way.
  I could give quotations, but I do not propose to take up the time of the House in doing so. The opinion expressed by the Working Party of the Council of the Institute of Actuaries and the Faculty of Actuaries in Scotland and other highly responsible bodies shows that the Inland Revenue, no doubt under the authority of the Treasury, intentionally or otherwise makes it difficult to draw up schemes whereby the insurance benefits might be easily transferred when a person moves from one form of employment to another.
  I mention that as a specific example. I believe that there are many ways, by legislation and otherwise, whereby one could increase and encourage the amount of self-help, and therefore lessen somewhat the very heavy burden falling on the community. One thing I think is clear—that there will be no encouragement to save unless people have faith in the value of the £. If we can tackle this problem of inflation, I think we may look forward to the future with a reasonable amount of hope. If not, I am convinced that when historians look back on our generation they will not congratulate us on having upheld or improved the finest of social service systems, but will rather condemn us for having been responsible for a tragically disappoining failure.
  6.27 p.m.
  Mr. John Eden: I propose to refer later in my speech to certain remarks of the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade) about self-help. I have one or two points to advance for the consideration of the House.
  First, I must say that I find it particularly tiring, when the subject of social

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  services is raised, to hear hon. Members opposite still labouring the point that they are a sort of "fairy godmother" of the Welfare State; that they alone have built up this thing; that with their own hands have they created it and that the general public should turn to them in gratitude for what they have done. If, in fact, that were so, no doubt the general public would have turned to them in gratitude in 1951 and again on a more recent occasion.
  Hon. Members opposite are only too happy to use such phrases as, "The Tories never like the social services." As I understand it, the Motion on the Order Paper is directed principally at the recent changes which have been made by the Government in an endeavour to try to effect certain savings to the Exchequer in the cost of these services. It was just because right hon. and hon. Members on this side of the House are every bit as anxious to maintain the social services as are right hon. and hon. Members opposite that it was necessary to introduce these measures, and try to bring to sensible proportions the amount of expenditure which is taking place.
  If hon. Members think that the vast sum of money that we are spending on the social services can be allowed steadily to increase without our considering where it can best be directed, where it is most needed, and whether it is absolutely necessary in the first place, they are deluding themselves. It is most important, if we wish to maintain these services, as we all do, that the economy of the country must be secure and able to bear the burden of them.
  The charge levied against the Government by the Opposition is that we are undermining or cutting the social services. I shall deliberately weary the House with one or two figures about the general cost of the social services. Some hon. Members would do well to take note of them. In the year 1953–54. the increase in social services cost over the previous year was £32 million. In 1954–55, the increase over the previous year was £82, in 1955–56 the increase was £90 million and in 1956–57 the increase went up to £113 million.
  The estimated increase for the coming year is £146 million. The total estimated civil expenditure will thus be £173 million over the original Estimates. The main
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  items in these overall figures are for education, in which the increase is £63 million, and health, in which the increase is about £49 million. The increase is largely accounted for by increased wages and salaries, the increased cost of maintaining services and increased usage.
  Mr. Ross: What about the failure of the Government to carry out their pledges?
  Mr. Eden: In putting forward these figures I am only asking hon. Gentlemen to bear them in mind, because no honest person can get up in this House or anywhere else and accuse us of cutting the social services.
  Mr. Ross: Oh, yes.
  Mr. Tom Brown: The hon. Gentleman has given the figures of the rising costs of the social services. Will he give us the-increase in the number of old people who are claiming pensions and the number who have been forced to go to the National Assistance Board? These increases in the cost of our social services are due to the inflationary stage through which we are passing.
  Mr. Eden: I cannot give the hon. Member the actual figure of old-age pensioners because I have not got it at hand.
  Mr. Brown: It is 800,000.
  Mr. Eden: It is well-known that the number of old-age pensioners is increasing the whole time. One of the major problems that we shall have to face over the next twenty-five years is that the proportion of old-age pensioners to wage earners is increasing rapidly. Although I have not the exact figure, which my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary may be able to produce towards the end of the debate, I can say that the number of pensioners claiming National Assistance has gone down and not up.
  Mr. George Craddock: The hon. Member has his facts wrong.
  Mr. Eden: I have no doubt that the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) will recognise that the problem of the old-age pensioners and how best to help them has now to be considered very carefully. It cannot be put right simply by giving increases of money. We have to

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  find ways of giving them assistance more indirectly. Later in my remarks I shall have a proposal to put forward in this respect.
  Neither I nor anybody else is anxious to see the system of social services, or the Welfare State, curtailed or cut into, but I wish to see that it is kept to some kind of proportion. I do not believe that any amount of State assistance can replace individual responsibility. I fear that the vast sums of money spent by the Government on those in need and on everybody else in general will lead the rising generation not fully to appreciate its individual responsibility to family and children. That is a definite danger. People are brought up nowadays to think in terms of a "fairy godmother" State. If anything slightly unhappy occurs to them they think they can always go to the State for assistance.
  Those who are genuinely In need should get assistance, and I am not complaining that this assistance operates. welcome it. I am condemning the possibility that growing in the minds of the younger people is the belief that they have no responsibility whatsoever of their own and can rely entirely upon the State for help. That is bad and is not to be welcomed at all.
  Dr. Horace King: The hon. Member has made some criticism of the youth of the country. I know that he wants to be fair. Does he not realise that every one of the young people he is talking about is voluntarily giving two years' National Service, and that the remarkable thing is that very few of them grumble about giving that service to the State?
  Mr. Eden: I accept that, but I am not talking of National Service but am emphasising personal, individual responsibility. There is a real danger of encouraging the tendency for people to rely more and more upon the State for assistance. They thereby lose the ability to live up to their own personal responsibility. It is important to emphasise it.
  The vast expenditure that is now taking place for the national services should, in certain respects, be put to better use, provided that the emphasis is placed where the assistance is most needed. In this context I want to bring out a point about helping old people. My hon. Friend the
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  Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Summers) put forward one or two solutions and spoke of the possibility, if such a scheme were carried forward, of allocating a considerable sum of money, about £55 million or £60 million.
  I would like to see an extension and an encouragement given by the State to voluntary bodies who are dealing with these problems. They already get assistance from local authorities, who have power to help them. I would like to see this power extended so that grants to voluntary bodies were increased and made more direct so as to assist those most in need within each local authority area. I am aware that this might well take away from the National Assistance offices some work they are at present called upon to do, but I do not think that that would be a very bad thing.
  If the work could be done through voluntary organisations which could be encouraged by some form of financial assistance to develop this work, that would be a direction in which I should like to see an increase taking place. People in voluntary bodies who are on the spot are probably in a far better position to find who in their area are most in need. I also believe that the older people would be more likely to go to voluntary bodies than to National Assistance.
  That is one way in which, possibly, we can overcome the natural and very understandable dislike many people have of going to the National Asisstance Board. They think that there is some kind of stigma attached to getting assistance. They think it wrong that they should be subjected to 'a means test, although in every walk of life everyone is subjected to a means test of one kind or another. The matter may be put right to some extent by encouraging them to go to voluntary bodies to seek the help which at present they do not like to seek—although they are entitled to get it—from National Assistance.
  Although I mention these things, I am aware that I am asking for a greater expenditure to take place in certain directions in which I am interested at the moment, but I do not think that that necessarily should increase the total expenditure on our social services. I want to see that kept under control as far as possible and also to see that certain things

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  which, to my mind, have not received their due share can have a little more attention. One of those is the great problem today of mentally retarded children, or children who are mentally handicapped in some way.
  The figures I shall quote are from the Journal of the National Society for Mentally Handicapped Children. I understand that there are between 7,000 to 12,000 children now awaiting attention. They are classified as educationally subnormal. It is estimated that every year about 3,000 children are classified as ineducable. These are two problems which are among the hardest of all the problems we have to solve. They are the most personal and most human problems.
  Obviously, a dividing line has to be found, but the mere drawing up of that division is in many cases causing considerable hardship. The dividing line I have in mind is between the child classified as just educable and one who is just ineducable. In many cases, great distress is caused to parents of children classified as ineducable. Naturally, a parent thinks that there is a great future for the child provided that it can continue to receive the benefits of education by being improved and put right.
  In my constituency I have been able to see some of the work which is being done for mentally handicapped and ineducable children under the auspices of the local authority and the medical officer for health. They are doing admirable work, but, as I suppose is the case in a large number of areas, they are handicapped through lack of the necessary occupation centres. Many occupation centres are in old-fashioned buildings and dreary surroundings, which are not exactly conducive to helping a child who is already facing such difficult mental problems. This is a matter on which we could focus attention. The need is very apparent.
  There are now nearly 300 occupation centres in the country. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), who made an excellent speech, mentioned that this number has increased. It used to be about 100, but now it is about 300. Obviously, it is still nothing like enough. Somehow, we have to increase the number of homes and of
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  trained people to look after these children.
  In the Bournemouth area there are now plans to go ahead with a new home which is to cater for all those in the area likely to need it. That will probably be one of the most advanced homes of its kind in the country. There still remains, however, the problem of children in other areas. For example, there are more than 20 counties where there is no sort of occupation centre. I should like my right hon. Friend to pay particular attention to this matter. If, in replying to the debate, he can add any further undertakings to those which have already been given in the House recently in this connection, I am sure that they would be very much welcomed.
  The Bournemouth Medical Officer of Health has been trying to investigate other possible ways of helping children of this kind, particularly those classified as mentally defective. He has been discussing the possibility of running hostels by local health authorities acting as agents of the Ministry. There the homeless defective could live within his own community and later enter employment, perhaps based on the hostel in the same way as patients are now allowed out on licence when they have been placed in a home.
  These are one or two directions on which perhaps more emphasis could be placed and they certainly need attention. I am not calling for a vastly increased expenditure in the total amount of expenditure by the State. I am asking for the redeployment of these amounts, concentrating on those directions where help is most needed today. I have listed two of those directions, the problem of some of the old persons and the problem of mentally defective children, as examples of what I have in mind.
  6.49 p.m.
  Mr. Somerville Hastings: We have all listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. J. Eden) with very much interest. He complained of the increasing cost of the social services, but everything else has been increasing in cost.
  What the hon. Member did not tell us, and what is really significant, is whether the proportion of the national income spent on the social services has gone up or not. Even if it has gone up,

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  I am not sure that I should much regret it because there are certain services which can be purchased more cheaply and efficiently if they are purchased collectively. Moreover, national considerations as well as personal considerations are involved. We have decided that in the national interest uneducated children and unhealthy people are a disaster, and we have, therefore, provided social services to avoid these.
  I want to speak briefly about the cost of the National Health Service. The Minister of Health and several other hon. Members have mentioned it. It is, no doubt, a very high cost, and I suggest that there are perhaps two particular reasons for this. In the Preamble to the National Health Service Act, the Minister of Health is bidden to provide a service for the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness. What has been done so far has been done mainly in the diagnosis and treatment of illness. I do not complain of that; clearly, it should be attended to first. But when the Minister of Health can give more attention to the prevention of illness then I, at any rate, am hopeful that the cost of the Service may be reduced.
  When the hospitals and allied services were taken over under the National Health Service Act, in 1946, they were in a very bad state. The voluntary hospitals had been starved for money for years. The Poor Law hospitals had been removed from the Poor Law authorities by the 1929 Act, but the Poor Law authorities had long realised that this would happen and for many years had spent very little on their infirmaries. Between 1930, when that Act came into operation, and the war there was not a very long time during which the local authorities could do much about these hospitals. As a result, when the National Health Service Act came into operation many years of neglect had to be dealt with.
  I suggest to the Minister that in the hospital service a good deal can be done by wise spending and that expenditure now may save money in the future. For several years I was closely associated with the Board of Management of the Hammersmith Hospital. At one stage we decided to put in a fresh stoking plant for the heating apparatus, and the saving in fuel covered the cost in two
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  years. I suggest to the Minister that if he pays cooks a little more and thus is able, particularly in the smaller hospitals, to get more efficient officers, in competition with industry, the food will be much more appetising and better cooked and there will be much less wasted in hospitals. The right hon. Gentleman can save money by wise spending.
  I wish to speak briefly about milk and the prescription charges. I regret the increased charge to be made for welfare milk and I regret even more that the Government are now prepared to pay their contribution for only one-third of a pint of milk in the nurseries instead of two-thirds of a pint as in the past. We must remember that milk is a very valuable food. In reply to a Question, only a few days ago, I was given the information that the consumption of milk per individual in this country had fallen slightly every year between 1951 and 1955. I look upon that as a disaster, because I am as proud as is the Minister of Health of the children. In the Library of the School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine there are photographs of schoolchildren of thirty and forty years ago. To compare these with the children of today is most encouraging. We can then understand why children's hospitals have been closed. To compare the appearance of our children today with the children of other countries, as I have done, is also very cheering.
  We want this to be maintained, and it will be maintained, I think, by providing for these children an abundant supply of milk. I do not like any possibility of the consumption of milk being reduced and of less being drunk in schools, particularly among children under five years of age, because I realise that milk is such a valuable protective food. It is said that milk contains no fewer than 20 different food substances. The cow synthesizes these with the help of bacteria, although some were not in the food it had to eat.
  These food substances can easily make up for any deficiencies in a child's diet. Particularly in winter a child may not be getting enough of an essential food substance, perhaps owing to a deficiency in fresh green food or fruit in the winter, either because of expense or because it is difficult to obtain; but that can very

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  well be made up by the milk which the child gets.
  I should like to say a few words about the prescription charges. which both my right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) and the Minister of Health have mentioned. I felt that the Minister was not very enthusiastic when he was supporting these increased charges and I thought that he would be as glad as any of us to abolish them altogether. They are very undesirable for many reasons. First, I feel that anything, real or imaginary, which prevents a patient from getting advice as soon as possible is a disaster not only for the patient but for the society as a whole. Often a man has some slight trouble and wonders whether he should consult a doctor. It may be nothing, but it may be the beginning of an infectious disease which needs isolation and treatment as soon as possible.
  A year ago at a residential nursery in Kentish Town 70 children became suddenly ill one morning. The National Health Service was involved, and teams of doctors and nurses from nearby hospitals came forward and looked after them. When the cause was sought and found, it was that one of the cooks had had a septic finger which had not been treated. That demonstrates the danger of not seeking medical advice and treatment as soon as possible.
  So much can be done nowadays with drugs. I remember when pneumonia was a fatal disease. Now. with the antibiotics that are available much can be done, and, therefore, in the interests of all, as well as the person concerned, I do not think that we want to place any barrier between the patient and the seeking of advice as soon as it may be necessary. Again, as I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington pointed out, it is very likely that we shall need more drug treatment in the future than we have needed in the past, because the population is getting older, and older people are more subject to illnesses. More people live to a ripe old age nowadays, but at that period of life all sorts of illnesses, not necessarily fatal illnesses, may occur.
  I have here a letter, of which I think I have sent a copy to the Minister of Health, which comes from one of my
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  constituents. She points out that she lives with her husband and that in one week she had to pay nine separate shillings for nine separate prescriptions for her husband and herself. I think that the Minister has seen the letter. This constituent is not very poor, she is not on National Assistance, but she found this expense very heavy indeed, and I cannot help feeling that anything that might tend to drive into hospital a patient who could be treated at home is a disaster. Only when it is absolutely necessary should people be sent to hospital. I feel that this prescription charge may operate in such a way that people may be more ready to go to hospital than perhaps otherwise they would be.
  As I have already pointed out, the National Health Service has done most in the direction of treatment and not the prevention of disease. What the Service has done, and done most efficiently, is to keep alive people who otherwise would have died long ago. We remember that in 1952 there was a bad smog, and that nearly 4,000 Londoners died. In January of last year, there was another smog, which lasted only about a day, which I and. I think, most of us hardly noticed, but it is said that 1,000 people died. Why did they die? I remember much worse fogs when I was a young student, working in a hospital in London. The reason is that we are keeping alive now, by means of drugs and medicines, people who would have died twenty or thirty years ago. I know many people, and every doctor does, with chronic tuberculosis who are being kept alive today by the drug P.A.S.
  I suggest that we shall need more prescriptions—I regret to say so—in the future than we have had in the past, and I am, therefore, particularly sorry to find that the people who will need these prescriptions most, particularly the old people, will have to pay more for them. I have dealt only with one or two points. which, I think, are personal points that affect the lives of the ordinary people, but it is for such ordinary people that I wanted to speak tonight.
  7.6 p.m.
  Dr. Donald Johnson: In my intervention in the debate tonight, I am anxious to concentrate what I have to say in talking about a social service that

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  saves money rather than one that costs money, and to some extent I shall be echoing in particular terms what the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Hastings) has just said in general terms. I also hope that what I have to say will help rather than hinder my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health in his financial difficulties.
  It is now a year since I put a Motion on the Order Paper, which I did not have the opportunity to move, pointing out the need for a domiciliary psychiatric social service. Many hon. Members asked me at that time what I meant by those long words. The phrase means, of course, the extension of a preventive service in the sphere of mental health. The financial figure that is, so to speak, the target for tonight in what I have to say is approximately £50 million annually. The last exact figure which I was given was £47 million, but that sum has probably increased since then, as it dated back two years. It is the amount spent on keeping 150,000 patients. the mentally ill and mental deficients, in our mental hospitals, 90,000 of these being mentally ill and another 60,000 mentally deficient.
  We know that the accommodation is inadequate for these people. There is a pressure on space leading to overcrowding to the extent of about 16 per cent., and it is quite clear that relief of this situation can only come about in one way. Relief from overcrowding and from the financial situation can only be provided by the promotion of an adequate social domiciliary and home service that will keep people at home, rather than rush them into hospital, and which will screen and support our mental hospitals.
  We like to think, and, indeed, over the vast sphere of social services we think rightly, that our social services are the most advanced in the world, but in this particular respect it is far from true. We are quite a long way behind certain countries. It is as long ago as the early 1930s that the municipality of Amsterdam, in circumstances not dissimilar from our own at present, started a service of this character. Over the years, that has developed into a highly efficient unit of social service which is giving much relief to human distress and also much relief to hospital finances. I had the opportunity of seeing that social service in operation
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  when I visited Amsterdam last year. Before describing it in outline, however, perhaps I can deal with the cost.
  In Amsterdam, the most recent figures are that this service costs £25,000 a year for a population of almost 1 million people. One must, of course, make adjustments in salaries and other matters when translating that figure into terms of finance for this country, but in doing this and making all allowances, one can say that for the whole population of England and Wales we could establish a service of this character for not more than £1½ to £2 million a year at the outside.
  Next, what would we save? We can get some idea of this, too, because there are certain places where, by local initiative, a service of this kind has been established. One of those is the County Borough of Oldham, where a similar service was started five or six years ago. The report of the Medical Officer of Health for Oldham shows what the effect of the service has been upon hospital admissions.
  In 1951, the number of mental hospital admissions in Oldham was 169, which is about the national average for mental illness. By 1954, however, the number had dropped to 128. As a result of this service, therefore, in three years there had been a reduction of one quarter in admissions to mental hospitals.
  In terms of the overall picture for the country as a whole, it being a fair assumption that our hospitalised mental patients cost about £30 million a year, a reduction of that order in admissions would save £7 to £8 million a year simply as a start within three or four years; and that is only the immediate effect in the first few years. As the service developed, the effect on finance would be incalculable and there is a possibility of saving £10, £15 or even £20 million.
  I should like to say a word about the service as it is working in Amsterdam and as I understand it works in Oldham. When an acute episode in mental illness occurs elsewhere, there is the tendency for the duly authorised officer to come in and for the patient to be almost immediately certified and rushed straight to hospital. It is not until he gets to hospital that the patient finds any skilled help or attention or any attempt to diagnose his condition properly by skilled help.

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  Instead, in the service which I am describing, the patient is seen by a psychiatrist in his home and, if possible, diagnosed. At least, an attempt is made to settle him down in his home surroundings and to ensure that he has adequate attention not only from his local practitioner, but with the help of a social worker, so that the home and social surroundings are concentrated on the problem that may have caused the breakdown. The problem of environment is often dealt with by a social worker and in that way a patient can be tided over and, perhaps, be kept at home and treated as an out-patient, thus saving a valuable hospital bed.
  Suppose, however, that in the end it is necessary for the patient to go to hospital. He still has an eye kept on him by the local authority service during his time in hospital with a view to his eventual rehabilitation when he has recovered from his illness. The rehabilitation of mental patients is an extremely difficult and complicated job and one that completely stymies us in most parts of the country at the present time.
  A service of this nature would assist actively by keeping in touch with the patient while in hospital and in preparing the way to his discharge by continuous contact with relatives, the employment exchange and, if necessary, the housing officer and all the other necessary social services that are essential.
  With this one service, therefore, it is possible to cure the two main causes of overcrowding in mental hospitals. The first of these is the hurried admissions. I must take this opportunity to refer to a letter which I have received from the medical superintendent of a large mental hospital, in which he gives me his opinion. He says:
  "In mental hospitals, the greatest problem is the improper admission of patients."
  He cites the case of somebody who was taken into a mental hospital, having taken barbiturics or attempted suicide in a similar manner, and who, perhaps, even before being treated for his physical condition, was placed on an Order and detained. That kind of thing—either admission direct from a general hospital or hurried admission from home, as frequently takes place—would be quite impossible if we had a proper psychiatric
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  service in the homes of the people so that they could be cared for in the proper fashion.
  By the same token, the second and probably equally great cause of overcrowding is the difficulty of the rehabilitation and the discharge of patients. Again, one can refer to the words of a medical superintendent, Dr. Bickford, in an article in The Lancet a year ago, in which he stated quite clearly that at his hospital, the Willerby Hospital, Hull, he could discharge one-fifth of his female patients straight away if they had anywhere to go. That is why these patients are accumulating in mental hospitals. There is difficulty in their resettlement, and without help——
  Mr. ShurmerOld people.
  Dr. Johnson: Particularly the old people—without help in the form of a rehabilitation service, there is nowhere for them to go.
  This applies with particular force to the old people, who are tending to accumulate in this unfortunate fashion in our mental hospitals. It is staggering that one-third of the certified patients entering hospital today are over 65 years of age.
  Mr. Shurmer: What is the reason?
  Dr. Johnson: I hope that I have been saying something about the reason.
  Mr. Shurmer: The old people.
  Dr. Johnson: Yes, the old people. One-third of our certified patients are over 65 years of age. They go into hospital and, because of the failure of rehabilitation in this way, they stay there.
  One cannot pass over this question without commenting, by way of compliment, on the splendid work being done in the geriatric unit at Oxford by Dr. Cosin, by which he has rehabilitated old people by getting them into hospital in time. They have been rehabilitated quickly and have been returned to the community quickly. He is setting an example that might well be followed in other parts of the country. This is by no means a novel conception even in this country, because there are powers available in Section 28 of the National Health Act, to any local authority to put a service of this kind into action straight away.

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  The Macintosh Committee sat from 1948 to 1951 with the special purpose of considering social workers in the mental health services, but by the time that the Committee had reported and made its recommendations, in very similar terms to what I have been describing, a working party on health visitors had been set up under Sir William Jameson. That working party took another three years to consider the matter and apparently action had to wait until it was seen how the social workers in the mental health services would fit into the general picture of social workers.
  One cannot help pointing out that three years went by before we had exactly three paragraphs in a Report, which was the sum total that seemed to deal with mental work. By the time that Report had been issued there was a further working party—the Younghusband Committee on social workers, whose report we are still awaiting. One cannot avoid saying that we seem to develop our social services by fits and starts. We have a big upheaval overnight, as we did in 1948, and now we have been waiting nearly ten years for further development of this small part of the National Health Service.
  We know that these matters are being considered, but it is important that we should have some idea of what is happening at present. in contrast with the kind of service that I have visualised. I will read to the House a letter from a former mental patient, describing what happens when a patient is considered to be mental and is taken to hospital. It shows what happens in contrast to what should happen—the patient being seen by a tactful and trained psychiatric social worker and a skilled psychiatrist.
  This man, in a letter to me, describes, first, how he was certified as a result of a sudden and unexpected visit by a doctor, a duly authorised officer and a justice fo the peace. He continues:
  "After the aforesaid meeting in my house, and the departure of the four visitors, there was an interval. Towards 12 noon there was an amazing scene. Two uniformed policemen (an inspector and a constable) arrived art the door, demanded admission, and an ambulance drew up outside. My removal was effected in the best traditions of the old Nazi Gestapo. Without explanation, without a moment's notice, I was bundled into the ambulance. An attendant inside hugged and held on to me as though a murder had just been committed. I had to tell him to desist, and even the policeman sitting opposite smiled"
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  That is the sort of thing that happens today. It is only one instance and I quote it because it has been better described than a number of others which have been brought to my notice.
  It shows how the mental services in the country are getting into a quite unnecessary disrepute, because this man was not in the least violent. It was completely unnecessary to bring a policeman in this case, just as it is unnecessary in any case of mental illness that can be tactfully and skilfully handled. I submit, therefore, that the service which I have described to the House all too briefly is urgently needed.
  Mr. Shurmer: I cannot let the hon. Member's statement pass. I have been a member of a mental hospital committee for thirty years and I have never known a policeman attend such cases, unless the person has been brought from a prison where he had been confined and certified. This man must have had hallucinations. Two policemen could not have been sent to fetch him. and even the uniforms of our male nurses would not suggest that they were policemen. I have never heard of such a case.
  Dr. Johnson: I assure the hon. Member that this is one of several cases where policemen are employed. I will give him particulars later if he wishes.
  Mr. Christopher Mayhew: I have warmly sympathised so far with the speech of the hon. Member for Carlisle (Dr. Johnson), but may I ask whether, in fairness to the mental staff and the nurses concerned, he checked the facts with an independent source?
  Dr. Johnson: Yes, I checked them with a relative. The best check that we can have is the fact that one has more than half-a-dozen such stories from different sources, where there can be no possible collusion. This is only one case out of a number.
  Mr. Mayhew: I, too, have received a number of letters of this kind, but one has to realise that they are not all of equal validity—that is, the letters one receives from former patients at mental hospitals. We must be fair to the people who have this hard job which the hon. Member has described. I wish that he had

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  been able to assure us that he was not merely quoting a letter, but had made independent inquiries himself.
  Dr. Johnson: I can quote another incident. I was talking earlier about Amsterdam. This is the effect that our mental services have on people abroad. I went round hospitals in Amsterdam with a psychiatric worker. She came over to London to see our mental health services here and she went out with a duly authorised officer.
  Sir Leslie Plummer: A police officer?
  Dr. Johnson: No, a duly authorised officer. These officers are known as mental health officers. The identical thing that I have just described happened when this visitor was over here. A patient would not go into a hospital and a policeman was sent for. The psychiatric worker I have mentioned expressed her complete horror to me at that incident. That is just another example.
  Mr. Shurmer: But the police have no right to interfere.
  Dr. Johnson: Oh, yes they have. Apparently the hon. Gentleman does not know the Act of 1890, where that procedure is laid down. He should know his law in this respect. May I ask him to look at Section 16 of that Act, under which people are moved to mental hospitals? It provides for a constable to be sent for. That is the legal procedure at present, and that is why I am intervening in this debate, because I want a social service which avoids that kind of thing.
  Mr. Shurmer: They may have done those things in years gone by, but today things are very different.
  Dr. Johnson: If the hon. Gentleman will meet me afterwards, I can give him perhaps half a dozen cases of the police being called for, and he can see the people himself. They are not figments of my imagination. I have met and talked to these people and I should he glad to introduce the hon. Gentleman to them. Perhaps we can arrange that.
  Now, if I may continue where I was interrupted, may I say that the public attitude at present towards mental illness is one of uncertainty and hesitation. It
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  can only be allayed by a service such as I have talked about. I think this would need three things. First, an integration of effort between the regional hospital boards and the local health authorities. Secondly, the recruitment of personnel, which, I understand, is one of the difficulties today, particularly for the psychiatric social worker's course. One is not altogether surprised that there are insufficient recruits coming forward when one reads the case quoted by the Macintosh Committee, where an advertisement of a local authority for a qualified worker actually offered a lower salary than for an unqualified worker. Thirdly, and not the least important, is a general change of attitude on the part of the authorities and public towards mental illness.
  I am pleased to be able to say that there are signs of these things happening. We are looking forward to the Royal Commission reporting. and it is hoped that its report will be followed not only by legislation, because legislation is only a part of the solution, but by the development of a social service of this kind which, as I have said, will make completely out-dated and unnecessary the compulsive legislation which has been such an unfortunate and prominent feature of the treatment of mental illness in the past.
  7.33 p.m.
  Mrs. Harriet Slater: I am sure that the hon. Member for Carlisle (Dr. D. Johnson) will forgive me if I do not follow his argument on the subject on which he felt he must speak. I want to bring the debate back to the terms of the Motion before us. I find it extremely difficult to reconcile the claim of the Government that the recent measures they have introduced have not in any way undermined the social services, since that is what has happened, and what will happen even more as a result of some of those Measures.
  The claim has been made today that there has been an increase in the £s. d. spent on our social services, but I suggest to the Government that much of this increase is due to their deliberate policy during the last few years of increased interest rates, which add charges to any new buildings erected, to any new schools, to any new hospitals and to any new

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  health centres. The policy of the Government of taking off controls on essential commodities, which has resulted in the prices of essential foods rising, has again affected the hospitals because of the food consumed there. Similarly, the policy of the Government has affected our education services.
  I want the House to realise that the provision of social services is very young. It is only about eighty-two years since the first major Public Health Act was introduced, and only twelve years since the Labour Government started to measure up to the need for such services in this country. So we are by no means at the stage of having accomplished a complete social service, but are merely in the teething stage of learning how much is needed and how far we have to go.
  One speaker today suggested that we could perhaps spend less on certain services and increase grants to voluntary services. I am not by any means decrying voluntary services, particularly those which care for old people, but I have a real fear that when this suggestion is made, particularly by members of the Tory Party, it may be a desire to hark back to the old days before we had any real social services, and when we depended on the Lady Bountifuls and folk with a little money, much of which had been collected on flag days in coppers from the folk they were eventually going to help.
  The hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. J. Eden) tried to advance the argument that there was a decrease in the individual sense of responsibility. Surely we are not going to take a few individuals as the yardstick for the community. There will always be some people, and they are not confined to working-class people, who will not measure up to their individual responsibilities, but, on the whole, our people realise their responsibilities to their family and to the community. Nowadays we have a different conception. We have a community responsibility based, I hope, on a humanitarian approach. If we accept this, it means that we need not stand still or cut down on the services provided for the community, but we must look at them repeatedly to find out how far we are falling short of the real needs of the community.
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  We have heard many arguments about who should pay for our social services. For the moment, I will not deal with that point, but, later, I will make one suggestion for extending rather than cutting down these services. Now, however, I want to make the plea that social services should not only be looked upon as a community responsibility on a humanitarian basis, but should be regarded from the preventive point of view. I say that because, if we can prevent illness and need, it means that more money can be spent on further preventive measures. I maintain that some measures introduced by the Government recently are not only not preventive, but actually undermine preventive measures undertaken in the past.
  Let us look at the question of welfare milk, the increased charges for milk and the removal of the subsidy. I remember when in most working-class homes the only milk bought was that bought on a Sunday to make a milk pudding for the Sunday dinner and when the cheapest milk to be obtained was a tin of condensed milk. Then came realisation that children were suffering from malnutrition and rickets and that there were people who were not able to measure up to their work because they were not getting this essential food, and welfare and school milk was introduced. As a result, we have seen a considerable improvement in the health of children and mothers. That was a preventive measure, and I consider that to cut that in any way would be a disgrace to any Government in the present age.
  Let us look at maternity and child welfare services. I have spent a long time as a member of a local authority. In the early days of my service as a local councillor, we had in cities like Stoke-on-Trent very high maternal and infant mortality rates. In many cases that was because mothers, owing to poverty, did not get the necessary food. It was also because there were no ante-natal clinics and there was very little maternity and child welfare provision. Much of that had been left to voluntary organisations to do, and very little had been done. When I first became a councillor, there was one maternity and child welfare clinic in Stoke-on-Trent.
  Because of maternity and child welfare work and ante-natal clinic work we have

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  considerably reduced maternal mortality, and we have done much through our social services to decrease the infant mortality rate. That is another preventive measure and one which I am sure we should not like to undermine. Yet the increase in the price of milk and the cutting down of extensions in maternity and child welfare clinic work will ultimately, perhaps in an indirect way, undermine our service in respect of preventive medicine.
  As to prescription charges, we are repeatedly told that people who cannot afford to pay can go to the National Assistance Board. But they cannot go there until they have bought the medicine. To these people 2s., 3s. or 4s. a week represents a very real burden. Some of them are asking doctors not to put as many items on the prescription sheet. Some are not even going for the medicine which they have been told they must have.
  I am concerned about not only the old people—that is a very real concern—but the woman with a family and the widow living on a very small amount of money. I remember when working-class women did not dare go to the doctor because they could not afford to go or to pay for the medicine. One great feature of the National Health Service has been that it has brought the women and children into the scheme. Women in working-class homes have been able for the first time to go to the doctor before they really became ill. They have been able to take their children to the doctor before they really became ill.
  Now a woman taking such a child will have to face a charge of 2s. or 3s., and there may also be another member of the family who is not well. What will the mother do? She will take the child to the doctor, but she herself will not consult him. We shall then return to the days when the mother became ill in middle life because she had been unable to get medical attention when she most needed it.
  Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill), I hope we shall face up to the provision of a chiropody service, especially for old people. To return to the voluntary idea, we in Stoke-on-Trent have been told that we can make a grant to the meals-on-wheels service for it to carry out a
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  chiropody service, but that we cannot run such a service for ourselves. That sounds queer to me. The meals-on-wheels service is able to carry out the chiropody service only for the very few people with whom it is in contact, and so for the mass of the old people in the city there is no real chiropody service at all. I have always said that if we could keep the old people on their feet by means of a chiropody service we should not only make them happier, but we might be able to prevent them having to go into hospital through becoming upset and ill because of the effect upon their general health of their bad feet.
  I am also concerned about the care of the mentally deficient, and particularly of the children coming between the real mental defective and the subnormal child. I am concerned that there may be in some large mental colonies young boys and girls who ought not to be there but are there because there is no other place to which they can go. There ought to be some form of intermediate hospital where they could be trained to live among the general community rather than be condemned to live among mentally deficient children.
  On the subject of education, a recent measure which upset me was the increase in the charge for school meals. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) has mentioned two of her experiences. I remember as a very young teacher having to take children from one of the poorest schools in Stoke-on-Trent to what was literally a barn for them to have a bowl of soup and a chunk of bread. I also remember children having to go to a shop, which was in a condemned area even then, and they walked in through the door, received 3 pork pie and a piece of slab cake, and then had to go out by another door and consume the food as they went along.
  A few weeks ago I went to one of our county modern secondary schools and had lunch with the girls there, a school meal, in a dining-room which was cheerful and where there were decent tables, crockery and cutlery. The girls not only had a good, well-balanced meal, but they had it under good social conditions. I have always felt that if the children had their meals at decent tables, with decent cutlery and crockery and in a family spirit, we should remove from the minds of many of them when they grow up a

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  fear of eating in public and we should also train them to live together and to eat together as a community.
  The Minister of Health said this afternoon that he agreed that the school meals service was not only valuable in so far as we could be sure that the children taking it would have at least one decent meal a day, but also from its social aspect. I suggest to the Minister of Health that to save £31 million in that way is a paltry way of saving money in this country. In the first place, it is paltry that we should save it at the expense of the school meals, and, secondly, it is paltry that we should save it at the expense of the social training that the school meals service is able to give to the children.
  I have seen the school meals service make a considerable difference to the physique and general attitude of our children, and the increase up to 1s. will be a very real burden on the mother with two, three or four children. What will happen will be that either none of them will have a school meal or that some of the family will have to take it in turns not to have school meals. I hope that the Government will have another look at this economy from both the aspect of school meals and that of the social services.
  Then there is the question of the education grant. I am very worried about the fact that the education grant is now to be thrown into the melting pot. We have not many instances of local authorities which have not really considered that to spend money on education was a valuable service which they ought to give. We still have some local authorities which give very much less than others in grants to university students. We still have some local authorities which are not prepared to expand, for instance, their further education services and which are not very worried about a cut in the school-building programme and whether their own dirty, unhealthy, badly-lighted schools will either be done away with or modernised. In the main, those local authorities are Tory-controlled.
  I do not want us to go back to the time when we had the scramble as to whether education should be a Cinderella service or a service which was considered essential. I fear the fact that our educa-
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  tional grant will be lumped together because I know that many councillors look upon this as an opportunity to get more money for some little thing which they have ideas about and who would be the first to consider that what they call the frills and fancies of education, but which I would call the essentials of education, should go by the board, with the result that our children and young people will suffer as a result.
  Then there is the question of playing fields, new buildings, the bulge which we shall have in our secondary-modern schools, the still far too many large classes which we have in many of the large industrial areas and the need that we may have to hold back the three-year training period for teachers, which enables them to have a much higher and much better training, and, therefore, a much higher standard.
  Finally, I come to another matter which I think is undermining the wellbeing and preventive attitude to ill-health and bad conditions. That is the Government's attitude to housing, which has only been mentioned in passing today. I consider that the cut in subsidies for general housing and increased interest rates are a deliberate attack by the Government against the people who really need houses.
  My local authority and many other local authorities of large industrial areas are at this very moment considering the question of whether they will say at their next council meetings, "No more houses are going to be built for the general applicants; only houses for slum clearance will be built."
  I remember the time when the Prime Minister introduced the Housing Repairs and Rents Act, 1954, and talked about a crusade in housing. Much of the propaganda at the elections of the Tory Party has been about this great crusade in housing. It has come to an end, and it has had its feet cut from underneath it. Young people who are getting married just cannot find the deposit which is necessary to buy a house in the region of £2,000. They are finding fewer building societies prepared to lend them the money to buy their houses. Even when they can face up to both of these problems, the burden of high interest rates which they are condemning themselves to pay over the next twenty years is one

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  which most young people simply cannot face up to. So we are condemning them to go on living with their families and to begin to rear their own families in overcrowded conditions.
  Many of them are living in bad houses already. We are laying the foundations not only of a feeling of frustration in the minds of these young people. but of ill-health because we are condemning them to live in overcrowded conditions. I want to see these slums cleared, but I also want to see the time come when we shall have houses for those people who are in need of decent houses. So long as we have a Government which puts up interest rates and cuts subsidies from the general housing of the people of this country, we shall have a Government which really does not understand the problems of the majority of the people.
  The Minister of Health said that we do not want to tax people too much for our social services. But the people who will benefit most are old people, widows and people with large families who do not pay taxes and yet, by the increased contribution, will be called upon to pay the heaviest amount in relation to their needs. That is a further unjust burden on the people whose need is greatest.
  I should like to see more preventive medicine and the building up of those services which will prevent ill-health and the mental disturbance of which the hon. Member for Carlisle (Dr. D. Johnson) was speaking. Many old people become mentally ill because of the fear of old age and because, perhaps, they cannot get the bare necessities of life. All this becomes a burden on old people when they are least able to stand the increasing nervous exhaustion.
  There have been many suggestions as to where the money should come from. I may be accused of being naïve, but if the Government would face up to a suggestion which has been repeatedly put to the Prime Minister during the last few weeks of abandoning the hydrogen bomb tests, of cutting down armaments in this country and doing away with unnecessary National Service, we could find much of the money for which we are crying out at the present time. We should thereby be providing not only increased and improved social services, but contributing
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  to a more humanitarian outlook for the future of the people of this country and the rest of the world.
  I therefore ask the Government to look again at what they have done in the last few months and to consider whether they can honestly say that they have not undermined the social services, and to realise that to cut essential social services is to attack those people whose need is greatest and inevitably to store up greater problems for future Governments.
  8.0 p.m.
  Mr. R. P. Hornby: Anyone who, like myself, has listened to the whole of the debate must be, aware of the immense scope of social services in this country. On both sides of the House we can all take a good deal of pride in that. We should also all be aware of the immense claims on the country's resources made by social services.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mrs. Slater) covered a great deal of ground and I hope that she will forgive me if I do not follow the whole of her speech. The hon. Lady demanded a great deal of expenditure on a great many subjects and suggested where the necessary economies should be made. I do not propose to stray into the paths of a defence debate, but she knows as well as I that the Government have stated that they are looking searchingly at all that matter That is all I shall say about it.
  I want to concentrate on the Health Service and its finances, about which the hon. Lady said much. I was glad in particular that she mentioned preventive medicine and preventive measures. Most of us would agree that there are two aspects of the Health Service with which we are mainly concerned. We are concerned with providing diagnosis, treatment and cure of such sickness and disease as we find, and with trying to find resources for research and preventive work.
  In doing that, we have to recognise that we are working within the context of a limited budget. When the hon. Lady referred to education and the Health Service, and when other hon. Members talked about mental sickness and old people, they should have realised that all those services, admirable in themselves, all cases for which we should like to do

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  something as soon as we can, compete for the country's resources.
  I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade) has returned to his place. He was quite right in saying that if we allow our enthusiasm for all or any one of these cases to outrun itself, we shall land in inflation and overstrain the country's resources, thus becoming worse off than we were when we started. In all probability, those people who can least afford to defend themselves will be paying the price for that inflation.
  In other words, we are faced not with just the problem of the Health Service, but with an economic problem arising out of that Service. I want to concentrate my remarks on that problem. We have to ask ourselves whether what we are spending on health is adequate for our needs, whether we can afford to pay it, and whether we are spending it in the right way. We cannot possibly divorce the problems of any one of our social services from the economy in which we live and out of which we have to draw the resources for the things we want.
  I want to return to deal with the methods by which we finance our Health Service today. We are all aware that the cost of the Health Service has caused repeated concern to successive Chancellors and Ministers of Health on both sides of the House. We know that the estimated cost of the total Service today is £690 million. We know that the steadily increasing proportion of that cost is drawn year by year from the Exchequer. We know that there are two other main sources of revenue for the Health Service, charges applied to the users of the Service and National Insurance contributions.
  Those are the three elements with which we are dealing. As has been rightly observed, if we do not like one method of payment, we have to look at the others. In the same way, if we want more for one social service, or one part of the national economy, we have to consider where we are prepared to do with less. That is the framework in which we have to consider the subject.
  We have to remember that the charges are carefully chosen selective charges applied to a very few individual items
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  —prescriptions, dentures, dental treatment, spectacles, and one or two more. In fairness, we must also remember that there is a very carefully drawn-up list of exemptions from those charges. No one who receives National Assistance has to pay the full cost of prescription charges—there is a refund process. All children are excluded from the spectacle charge and anyone under 21, or a woman who is expecting a child, or who has had a child in the last 12 months, is exempt from the dental charge.
  We must remember all those things, if we are to see the picture in its right context. We must remember that the insurance contribution is at present one-seventeenth of the total cost of the health bill. After my right hon. Friend's new proposals are brought into effect it will be raised to only one-ninth, while Sir William Beveridge, as he then was, recommended that it should be one-fifth.
  I come to the main criticisms of the present proposals and the present methods of financing the Health Service. They largely fall under two headings. The first is that the Exchequer is niggardly in its general treatment of the Health Service, and the second that the arrangements which have been made and which are being made bear hardly on those who can least afford to pay. As to the first, I expect that many hon. Members have read the 1955 Report of the International Labour Organisation on the financing of social security. They will have found it interesting on this subject when they see that the Exchequer in Britain is paying for social services.
  The Report reveals that the cost of the Health Service borne by public funds is far greater in Britain than in any other country in Europe. The figures are: roughly 90 per cent. of the cost borne on public funds in this country, as against 32 per cent. in Belgium; 30 per cent. in Sweden; 30 per cent. in Denmark; and between 20 and 25 per cent. in Norway. The discrepancy is enormous. Seen in that general European context, the figures completely refute the suggestion from the other side of the House that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is not playing fair by the Health Service. It is a very different story.
  Secondly, emerging from that same Report—and it applies to the new proposals

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  for the increased insurance contribution—there is the fact that in Europe the trend over the last few years has increasingly been that the burden of health costs should be moved away from the State or public authority contribution in the direction of the insurance contribution. Until now the trend in this country has been entirely in the opposite direction. The Exchequer has borne the burden to an ever-increasing extent, and less and less has come from other sources. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor now proposes to halt that trend to some extent, and I believe that he is right to do so.
  It is an absolutely sound policy, both socially and economically, so to legislate that insurance plays a bigger part in the financing of our Health Service. I am not suggesting that it should play a predominant part, or go further than Lord Beveridge originally suggested. but I submit that it has been playing too small a part hitherto. What are my reasons for saying that? First, the Health Service would gain considerably if its demands were insulated to a greater extent from other demands made upon the Exchequer. The Health Service will have a rather large chunk of money which would be in a separate contributory fund, and I think that its future would be the more secure for that. It has a large sum of money which would be definitely and undeniably its own.
  Secondly, I believe that the alteration would be beneficial economically, because of the effect that a slightly larger insurance aspect would have upon the users of the Service. When I speak to my constituents I frequently find that they have the illusion that the weekly stamp pays for the Health Service. That is a dangerous illusion. People think that they are paying for the whole thing when they are paying only one-seventeenth, as I have previously mentioned. A good deal would be gained if people realised what is involved in the financing of the Health Service, and it is quite a sound policy, both economically and socially, that those in work should contribute something towards the dangers and risks involved in sickness.
  The hon. Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) talked about the unfairness of a contributory system. When I say that I should like to see the insur-
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  ance principle emphasised I would point out that I also recognise that if these contributions were considerably increased—as I think they might be—they would impose a burden upon the lowest paid workers. This is a problem which can be faced with advantage.
  I would ask my right hon. Friend to consider whether some advantage is not to be gained in pursuing the insurance principle further while, at the same time, seeing whether two rates of contribution could be instituted—a standard rate, and a lower rate to be paid by those below an agreed level of income.
  That might meet some of the points which the hon. Lady mentioned, and I believe that it would preserve considerable advantages. First, it would enhance the contributory factor, which I regard as a useful one, and, secondly, it would help to relieve the burden upon the Exchequer. At the same time, it would safeguard some of the lower-paid workers.
  Miss Bacon: Does the hon. Member realise that when he talks about the Exchequer he is talking about the taxpayers? Does not he agree that to take money from the Exchequer, or from the taxpayer, is much more equitable than putting a burden upon everyone, including the lower-paid workers?
  Mr. Hornby: I am glad that the hon. Member has raised those points. It seems to me that there are two points to be considered there. I believe that the idea of taking the national income as a whole and distributing it among different sections leads to bad budgeting and extravagance. I believe that a better management of funds can be obtained if they are subdivided and set aside for specific purposes.
  Secondly, I do not think that her argument is quite fair. I believe she said earlier that the taxpayers were getting off unduly lightly under the contributory system, or words to that effect. We must remember that the taxpayers are playing an enormous part in the financing of the Health Service. So long as that is true it does not seem unreasonable that both the taxpayers and the insured persons should play their respective parts in the system.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: The hon. Member says that taxpayers are playing too large a part. I

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  rather thought from his previous argument that that was exactly what he wanted. He wants the National Health Service to be financed by contributions, and he wants the contributions to be graded according to capacity to pay. While the rate is borne by the Exchequer, which means the taxpayers, that is exactly what he gets.
  Mr. Hornby: I was trying to make the case that there was an enormous claim for an extension of the insurance principle. I also pointed out earlier that the taxpayer had been playing a very large part in financing the Health Service.
  Mr. Silverman: I do not see why the hon. Member does not want him to.
  Mr. Hornby: I am quite happy about it.
  I now come to the question of charges, and whether they bear hardly upon individual users of the Service. My right hon. Friend mentioned an article appearing in The Times of 14th March, which referred to the standards of living of the average wage earners in this country in the last few years. That article pointed out quite clearly that the average spendable incomes of those people had increased since 1948 by between 18 per cent. and 20 per cent.
  In her speech, the right hon. Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) said that "the average wage earner" was a dangerous and often misleading term in the consideration of social problems, because we are particularly concerned with those below the average. I accept that argument, but I do not think that it can be used against the measures which have been taken by my right hon. Friends in this and the preceding Government.
  It seems to me that it is an argument for preventing extravagance wherever it occurs, for developing our services within our budgets and without creating inflation, and for paying special attention to provisions whereby we can exempt from payment those who need exemption, or can give refunds, or special aid, to those who fall below certain levels.
  We must also remember that some of the charges which have been criticised have been imposed for very special reasons. Many hon. Members opposite,
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  before my becoming a Member of this House, have commented upon the vast volume of medicine which is being poured down British throats. We should also remember that dental charges have been specifically introduced because of the dangerous shortage of dentists, and that the Guillebaud Report is by no means certain that the charges for spectacles have not had a useful influence in preventing extravagant demands for replacements.
  In considering these charges we must remember why they have been imposed. They are there to prevent extravagance, which is something we must avoid if we are to do all the things we want to do in the Health Service. The contributory principle offers a valuable line for our consideration. I suggest, therefore, that the social policy of my right hon. Friend is right. The insurance charges have been criticised and I would argue that in that respect we have been moving in the right direction. Incidentally—though this is not necessarily obvious proof that we are right—we have been moving in the same direction as the rest of Europe.
  I would argue that on all the figures that I can find the taxpayers and the Treasury are being extremely generous to the Health Service by comparison with any other country in Europe. I maintain that the curb on extravagance represented by the charges is a perfectly legitimate way of trying to keep within our budget, as just one way in which we can curb inflation. Unless we do that, unless we realise that all the things we want in a social health policy must fit within the framework of our existing resources as earned by industry and by our own capacity as a nation, then, as the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West said, we shall bring the whole framework of the social services down in ruins about us.
  8.21 p.m.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: No doubt the hon. Member for Ton-bridge (Mr. Hornby) was genuine in his comments on how to try, by economies here and new taxation on the Health Service there, to get our social services in balance and use what money is available better and more wisely for the benefit of the community. That seemed to be the argument of the hon. Gentleman. It is a pity that he did not read

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  the opposition Motion which seeks to draw attention to the
  "undue and increasing burden on those least able to bear it."
  and the Government's recent changes in the social services. After all, that is what we are debating. We are discussing what the effect has been. The hon. Member has argued how desirable it is that we have taken these measures in a general sense, without applying that to his constituents.
  One of the feelings I had during the last debate in the House on old-age pensions was a sense of the lack of social indices to which one could refer. We have one report which goes back to 1954, and which was published in April, 1956. That is the best information available to hon. Members. From my own experience, I know of one or two medical teams which have done service in the last year and brought forward facts that do not conform with the claims of the 1954 Report. In other words, we cannot argue in terms of general social indices.
  Miss Margaret Herbison: My hon. Friend will remember that in the debate to which he refers, although the only statistics available to backbench Members on either side related to 1954, the Parliamentary Secretary was able to quote statistics relating not only to 1955 but to 1956 as well. It seems to me that if these figures are available at all, they should be available to every hon. Member.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: As a matter of fact, I was very irritated by that and the undue debating advantage which the Minister had over Private Members. I wrote to the Minister of Agriculture. Fisheries and Food and complained, and asked whether he could supply every hon. Member with such information for a forthcoming debate. I have as yet only had an acknowledgment, and so I should not like to take the point further now. I agree that it seems to be unfair.
  The point I am trying to argue is on the question of how we assess the value of the Motion on the Order Paper with the social indices that are available. I suggest that there are not very many in the general context, but we can look at our own constituents and find examples to which we may refer. In my own
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  borough, for instance, what better could I do than ask the local co-operative store manager, or some other major distributor of milk, by how much his distribution of milk had fallen in the last few months. That is a fair question. I found, depending on the area, because there are differences in the effect, that the changes in the price of milk have resulted in substantial changes in the volume of milk consumed in the poorer areas. I submit that it is not unreasonable to say that by increasing milk prices we are depressing the demand of some people who consume milk. We are creating a bias against those who have less money.
  From the general figures we find that there has been a decrease in the volume consumed in Great Britain. I ask each hon. Member to look into his heart and say, "Is this a homogeneous drop? Does this apply to every single individual in Great Britain, or is it possible that it may apply to only a certain class of people? If it does apply to only a certain class, is not that a shameful thing?" At least it should be recognised in the intellectual arguments in this Chamber as being a valid point to be considered, quite apart from the humanitarian aspect.
  There is another interesting feature, that of school meals. I find on visiting families in my constituency, particularly the larger families, that when I ask how many children have stopped taking school meals in consequence of the charge being raised, it is, of course, the larger families and the poorer families who have to send children back to the dreadful practice of going to school with a "piece," a sandwich, for their lunch. That is a practice which I thought we had managed to overcome by the introduction of school meals at the end of the war. That provides another indication which is surely a fair one to refer to when we are considering whether it is a good thing to impose this increased charge.
  Since I have not much time in which to speak, let me address myself to the major argument, that of prescription charges. I cannot think of a more lamentable change in the social services which has been made in the last few years than this one. Taking again the example of my own constituency, I can say that chemists have asked me into their back shops—of course I go as

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  a politician, as a Member of Parliament, and not a doctor, because the ethics of our profession do not allow us to compound with pharmacists—and showed me the E.C. 10 forms on which doctors prescribe their medicines. I have seen one or two which have been obliterated with pencil or ink marks. They have been obliterated because the chemist has advised the customer that the obliterated items are not the most important. The customer has asked, "What is the most important medicine on the prescription?" Sometimes the most important item is the most expensive, so the patient says, "I shall not buy the others because I cannot afford it." It reminds me of Thomas Carlyle, who once handed a bottle of medicine to a friend and said, "This cured me. It will cure you." That was his logic and the same type of logic of which I am complaining will cost the country more in the long run. If we treat people sensibly it is sometimes less expensive.
  People who are in the marginal class just above National Assistance are finding it very difficult to meet the new cost of prescriptions, especially in the seasons in which they get their chronic, recurrent illnesses which demand perhaps four or five small medicines per week to keep them going in reasonable health and comfort. Take the case of the so-called "multiple pack" that we were promised. We have not got any of them, even for the colostomy people, who suffer from having to treat themselves daily, after one of the most awkward surgical procedures in modern medicine. At any rate, these packs have not yet managed to percolate over the Border, although they may be already a rousing success in England and Wales I haven't heard.
  We might well say that the prescription charge has been a deterrent. The Minister's figures tend to prove that, because they dropped 25 per cent. by December, after one month's trial, and by January they dropped a further 18 per cent. It is clear that the charges are a deterrent. Does the hon. Member for Tonbridge really think that the deterrent represents the squeezing out of the margin of abuse? Or does it represent a corroding of the area of genuine illness? I am sure that hon. Gentlemen will see a very great danger here of depriving people of medicines which they need because the charges for them are substantially heavier than
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  was ever intended, even by the 1949 National Health Service (Amendment) Act.
  The hon. Member for Tonbridge quoted the Guillebaud Report, which was quite against the National Health Service charges; even the one shilling per prescription was regarded as highly undesirable. Yet the hon. Gentleman says that we ought to have a few more of those taxes and a higher insurance contribution, so as to reduce the National Health Service burden upon the Treasury. I would advise the Minister of Health that, if he wishes to find economies on the pharmaceutical side of the Service, he should look at the American proprietaries which are now coming in.
  I am still a registered medical practitioner and, when I go home at the end of this week I shall find like any other doctor, from twelve to two dozen highly-coloured catalogues waiting for me and advising me in the most seductive terms to use various medicines. Often these medicines have been so well placarded in the public Press that patients come in and ask the G.P. to prescribe them. Doctors, like other human beings, are influenced by advertisements and so are their patients. This conspiracy is engineered by the advertisers, the pharmaceutical firms, to get more and more proprietary drugs used in prescriptions.
  Mr. Hornby: I shall be interested to know from the hon. Member, as he is a doctor, whether he wants the Ministry of Health to tell him what he may or may not prescribe?
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: I thought the hon. Gentleman would come forward with that argument. I have the answer, which is perfectly simple. We should ask our experienced seniors, as we do with any other important drugs, to apply these proprietary medicines on scientific terms to a restricted number of individuals and, after having assessed not only their effects but their side effects, to say whether it would be wise to use the medicines in our practice. We have done that for generations.
  Can it not be done by the Medical Research Council? It could take each new proprietary drug and submit it to a scientific test to find out whether or not there is some equivalent already in existence, and to determine its pharmacological value. Then we could find out its

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  worth financially and the Ministry could get into direct negotiations with the firm concerned. There have been remarkable examples in recent history of firms cutting their prices by half, after the Ministry has made representations to them, and still being able to sell their drugs at a reasonable profit. American companies are having a wonderful time in this field. Some of these firms are the pharmaceutical Al Capones of medicine.
  Much money is being spent on these medicines that ought to be used to better purpose. We must cut down expenditure on them so that we can use the money more sensibly elsewhere. One saving would be to abolish the prescription charges right away. They have done a great deal of damage to the practice of medicine.
  Talking about the finances of the National Health Service, the hon. Member for Tonbridge argued that we ought to have a larger National Insurance contribution. There we get closer to the fundamental difference between the two sides of the House on the question of the National Health Service, and, indeed, of the larger issue of the social services. The fundamental difference is that we believe that a common Health Service should be provided to every citizen. In the main that should be provided by general finance. There should be no discrimination between one section of the population and another. One section should not be given a better service than another as has been suggested from time to time.
  I do not worship Lord Beveridge as the god of the Welfare State. I acknowledge that he did a great deal in thought and in converting many people to the idea of extended social services in this country. I was surprised that the hon. Member says that Lord Beveridge propounded a fraction so high as one-fifth of the cost of the National Health Service which had to be borne by National Insurance contributions. My understanding was that it was continued from 1948 until the present Government at a rate of £40 million, that £40 million being derived from National Insurance Fund as part of the cumulative moneys from benefits in a society in full employment.
  If we had anything between 6 per cent. or 8 per cent. unemployment, the actuarial
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  position in the Unemployment Fund would mean that these would be no money to go to the National Health Service. The presumption would be that the moneys could come from the National Insurance contribution only in a state of full employment. If the Government are to raise it by one-fifth, what possible reason would there be in five or ten years time—the Lord preserve us from that if there were a Government of this texture in office—to say, "Let it be one-third or even one-half ". Until such time as they have turned the clock back to 1911? A famous statesman once said that the Conservative Party was in favour of reform, but of the last reform, not the next. In this case it is in favour of the last reform but two.
  Miss Herbison: The Government have turned the clock much further back than the position under the Lloyd George legislation. The majority of my constituents could always get their prescriptions free of charge, even before 1948, but they cannot now. This has gone back beyond 1911.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: I am indebted to my hon. Friend for underlining that point. This seems to extend the National Insurance contributions, as apparently is the intention, very far from the original concept of the Service. It may be nearer to the concept of the Service which the Conservative Party has in mind. It is entitled to that so long as it recognises and declares that that is so.
  The hon. Member for Tonbridge skated over the arguments about the contribution. Of course, I say that respectfully. He did not say in his remarks about the contribution of one-fifth that there were to be charges for prescriptions, which is the exact point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison). If he had said that Lord Beveridge declared it to be one-fifth with no charges, probably that would be nearer the accurate position, but the fact is that charges exist. Is the hon. Member saying that the National Insurance contribution should be increased, but that that should be accompanied by the abolition of National Health charges? If so, I would agree with him because I want to see the prescription charge abolished in the near future.

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  The hon. Member really squirmed when he was asked about the lower paid worker. He wanted two rates of National Insurance contribution and wanted the Minister to look at that question. Apparently, the suggestion was that we should have two rates of National Insurance contribution, one for the poorer worker and one for the better-off worker. That system might be worth while, but the hon. Member is being driven to it solely because it has become part of this major idea of fortifying the Health Service.
  I should like to draw the attention of hon. Members in all parts of the House to the fact that in the Opposition's Motion we have argued that these changes in the social services, whether hon. Members opposite think them desirable or not. have caused a great deal of suffering and difficulty to the ordinary people. Consequently, this is no advancing, progressive democracy, constantly widening its welfare facilities and seeking to enlarge the national Budget towards that end.
  I am glad that the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. J. Eden) is back in the Chamber because I want to refer to his argument about the expansion of the social services. He gave a stream of figures showing how the social services have increased and he concluded with the words, "No honest man could say otherwise." Surely he realises that the figures must be related not only to the national Budget, but also to the national income. We have only to turn to the Guillebaud Report to see that the proportion spent on the National Health Service has tended to drop in the last four or five years, which means that we are spending less, proportionately, on the social services than we ought to be spending, assuming that the basis of our earlier budgetary pronouncement was correct. I have still to hear an argument from the Government that those pronouncements were not correct.
  The usual argument is, "Labour did this and the Conservatives have done that", the argument being that what we did was good and if they can improve it they must he better. Surely the hon. Member can apply that argument to this case. If Labour is the touchstone, the reality of good judgment, then the changes which have been made in the
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  social services do not correspond to an advance. I put it to him that we have had cuts in the services—perhaps not absolute cuts, but relative cuts.
  As for the effects of these cuts, which all hon. Members have seen in their constituencies, and the hon. Member's arguments about them, I very much doubt whether even the Minister who is to reply can so attune his debating powers to overcome a case which shows that the lower income groups. the old, the sick, the lower-paid workers, the mothers of large families and the children have suffered very much more in the last three months than they have suffered for very many years.
  8.43 p.m.
  Mr. William Shepherd: The hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon) has delivered a moderate speech. I am prevented by time front dealing with one or two of the points which he raised, but I shall refer to one or two others.
  The political attack on the Government today has failed abysmally. I rejoice in the fact that today the Opposition's attack has so entirely failed, and I do so not for party political reasons but because I want to feel that the interest in our social services and their progress is to be a bi-partisan policy. I look with regret upon those who attempt to attack the social services, on the one hand, and those who, on the other, say that there should not be any alteration in the pattern which was set in 1948. It is wrong to take the view that in 1948 we were possessed of all wisdom and that under no circumstances can we make changes which will be of benefit.
  We have a common purpose in our social services, and I am very proud of the achievements of the nation in leading, to some extent although not in entirety, in social services. I hope that what we have done in the last ten years will provide us in later years with a very material dividend.
  As some hon. Members have said, the Health Service and the social services generally do not take a much larger proportion of the total national product than they took before the war, but we must realise that we have many other burdens, too. I will come in a moment to the question of payment for the services.

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  I should like, first, to deal with the argument of those who say, and I understand that one hon. Member on this side of the House said today, that the social services as at present administered diminish the sense of responsibility of our people. I believe that that is absolute nonsense.
  Mr. Eden: I said it.
  Mr. Shepherd: My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. J. Eden) says that he said it. I think it is absolute nonsense.
  Mr. Shurmer: We can expect that from Bournemouth.
  Mr. Shepherd: I agree that the social services and the Health Service may have the effect of diminishing responsibility among certain elements in our community, both among the recipients and among those who administer them. It has had a bad effect, for example, on some doctors, hut. I think, very few, and it has certainly had a bad effect on a very limited section of our community which receives these services, but it is little short of arrant nonsense to declare in general terms that the social services have had the effect of diminished responsibility.
  Mr. Eden: Will my hon. Friend allow me to intervene? What, in fact, I did say was that there was a grave danger that over-reliance upon the system of social services provided by the State might encourage in the youth of the country—and I think I was taken up on this point—the feeling that there is no longer the same necessity for individual responsibility; and that, I think, is a dangerous trend.
  Mr. Shepherd: I do not altogether agree with that. I do not find that youth today is as bad as it is painted, and I am very sorry to see a relatively young man like my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West sharing this rather out-of-date view. When considering the question of the effect upon morale of the Health Service, I look to what happened in the inter-war years. How much more rotting of the fibre took place through unemployment? There was more rotting of the fibre in one week, I would say, than in the whole period since 1948, during which we have had the enhanced social services.
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  The time has come to abandon the idea that the social services diminish responsibility. The poor types in our society, who exist in the upper, middle and lower strata, will take advantage, as they do of other things in our country, but, on the whole, I think that the majority of our people are good, decent people who will respond to their duties and not attempt to take advantage of these services.
  I want to use what time I have left to me to deal with one or two points, and the first is that I feel that a mistake we have made in the health and social services is perhaps in not taking as much advantage as we should have done of voluntary service. There was a feeling in 1948 that an end had come to voluntary service, because of the all-pervading assistance of the State, vet there is still a vast field for voluntary service—a tremendous field—and I hope that in the next year or two we shall do what we can to encourage the further use of voluntary effort.
  Mr. Eden: I said that, too.
  Mr. Shepherd: My hon. Friend says that he said that. I am very glad that he did, and that I agree with some of the things he said.
  It is perfectly true that the voluntary services can supply some things which cannot be supplied by the payment of money or by paid service. I hope we shall, particularly in the care of aged people, use to an increasing extent the voluntary services which are readily available, and for which I believe many people would volunteer to help, if we showed them the way.
  I want now to say a word about the method of payment, because I think that there has tended to develop in the House tonight a difference of opinion between one side of the House and the other. My hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge (Mr. Hornby) pointed out something which I should have liked to develop at length if I had the time, that Continental countries had become accustomed to providing much more of the revenue for social services by direct charges than is the case in the United Kingdom. I hope that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite will not be too dogmatic in looking at this question, because we are faced with a very real problem.

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  It is no good our saying that we are not overburdened and that initiative is not being discouraged by too heavy a level of taxation. Most of us are agreed that some lightening of the load of taxation is essential, yet these services will demand more and more. Consider, for example, the hospitals themselves. If we are really to provide proper hospital buildings, how many millions of pounds should we spend in the next twenty years? It is a tremendous sum of money, on top of the already rising level each year of health expenditure. We really must consider taxation not as a bottomless pit, but from the point of view that we must try to condition our affairs to the state of our economy.
  I do not see anything wrong in causing the weekly payment to bear a larger share of the Health Service than it does now, but I would say this as a concomitant. I think that if that were done, the prescription charges ought to go. I must declare myself to be an utter opponent of the prescription charges and I will explain why.
  If it were the case that the first 1s. prescription charge had succeeded in halting the vast cataract of mainly useless medicines which people put down their throats, I would have been a supporter of it because the cost of the medicines, the bottles and all the time involved is a waste of national resources. We see, however, from the figures that after a year or so, despite the prescription charge, the cataract did not dry up; in fact, it increased in volume.
  Although my right hon. Friend the Minister is now able to say that there has been a diminution in prescriptions following the additional charges, I feel that it is not permanent. One hon. Member has said that the consumption of milk is falling, and so it is, but I am convinced that in another six months' time it will start to go up to the original level, and so will medicine. When people face an increased charge, as sometimes happens, for example, with tobacco in the Budget, sales go down for a varying period, and then they resume their normal level.
  If I had a choice, I would readily increase the charge for the weekly stamp rather than impose the prescription charges, because the prescription charge is a thoroughly bad charge. It does not
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  achieve its purpose and, on the whole, it is a hardship for those who can least afford it. It involves a cumbersome method of recovery for those who cannot afford it. I would say without hesitation that the weekly payments by workers and employers could bear a larger share of the cost of the Health Service and the prescription charges should be abolished altogether.
  There are some who say that people cannot afford to pay for these things, but that is nonsense. What do we spend each year upon drink, tobacco and entertainments? It is about £2,000 million a year—and Sir Bernard and Lady Docker do not spend it all. All kinds of humble people, in varying circumstances, spend part of this immense total. I do not think that there is any argument for saying that people cannot afford to pay more for the weekly stamp, because I believe they can.
  I had intended to refer to one aspect of medicine which disturbs me considerably, and about which little is done or very little discussion takes place. That is the extent to which we lose nationally because of absence from work through illness. When we have 2 or 3 million working days lost in a year from strikes, we get very excited. Some people, in fact, get more than excited, but we look with apparent unconcern at the 281 million days that are lost each year by absence through illness.
  A great deal of that absence is really avoidable. I cannot go into details now. It is a very complicated and interesting subject. We have to apply ourselves in the next year or so to finding out more about this problem and to finding out means by which we can reduce the incidence of absence through sickness. Some of the sickness is not genuine. Sometimes paid absence encourages longer absence from work. There are all kinds of factors, but surely a great deal of work on the preventive side can be done.
  There is work to be done on better ventilation and forms of heating, more agreeable conditions, the right places for people in the right kind of jobs, and attention to the various neurotic conditions that arise in factories. I know of firms which, by enlightened policy, have reduced absence from work, which, I am

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  sorry to say, is generally about 3·5, down to 1·5,
  I know that everybody cannot do that, but I am sure that by proper application and study of the problems involved, and by adopting the right kind of methods, we can make a tremendous contribution towards our industrial production.
  Mr. Ronald Bell: Would my hon. Friend explain whether by 3·5 he means 3·5 of the days, or a percentage?
  Mr. Shepherd: I meant that 3·5 of the working days are lost through absence from work, which amounts to the work of almost 1 million workers a year lost by absence through illness. Therefore, this is a problem which we must tackle. Preventive medicine can do a great deal, and I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health will try to direct more attention to this problem than has been directed to it in the last ten years.
  I hope that we all share the desire to maintain and improve the health and social services. This is a duty which civilised people accept as an obligation. We ought not to make it too much of a party issue. It is far beyond being a party issue. If we are to secure better health for our people in the future it is something that we must do irrespective of party. We have a long way to go. Hon. Members will have noticed that when people leave their work at our great factories they do not look healthy. There is a great deal to be done to improve their health. I hope that we shall try to accept this as a joint responsibility, although we may quarrel about the methods adopted.
  Finally, we must not be too fixed in our ideas. We did something in 1948 and it may not necessarily be the best thing to have done. We must look at these things in the light of our own experience and experience abroad. If we find that we can improve these services by this or that change, or we find that one method of financing is better than another, I hope that neither side of the House will be too dogmatic and that we shall do our best in the interests of the nation.
  8.59 p.m.
  Mr. James Griffiths: I am sure that we have all listened with interest and pleasure to the thoughtful and constructive speech of the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd). During the course of the day we have had a number of speeches in which hon. Members, with a deep knowledge of. and wide experience in, one or more of the social services, have made constructive suggestions for their improvement.
  As I am sure all right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House would like to do, I should like, in particular, to join in sincerely congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) on his maiden speech. He spoke well. My hon. Friend came to us from Lewisham after a signal political victory. I thought that my hon. Friend, from his own experience in that by-election, put the fears that are being felt and expressed by an increasing number of the people of our country. Indeed, it was those fears which were responsible for his return as the Member for Lewisham. North.
  The fear is, first, that the Government, by the trend of their recent policy, are departing from some economic and social policies which have come to be regarded by a majority of our people as an essential part of our national life. This country has now accepted that it is the duty and responsibility of any and every Government to pursue financial and economic policies that will maintain full employment. I believe that that is accepted as part of national policy, and that any Government which is believed by the electorate to be departing from these policies will be defeated in the country.
  Secondly, as the hon. Member for Cheadle said, I think that there is almost universal assent that those already comprehensive measures of social insurance and social services which we have developed, and which we expanded considerably after 1945, and which we now call the Welfare State, are regarded by the mass of our people not as a luxury to be dispensed with if we meet with difficulties, but as an essential part of the life of a civilised community.
  The fear expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, North of the people there, and elsewhere, too, was that

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  the Government, by their policies, are slowly but surely undermining those measures; that they are curtailing and restricting the scope and the cover of our social insurance services; and that, by their recent measures in particular, they are pursuing policies which tend to put the greatest burden on the shoulders of those least able to bear it.
  It is not fear of one particular thing but, in effect, of a large number of measures which this Government have brought before us in recent months. I will list them, for I would remind the House that it is the cumulative effect of all these changes which is causing deep concern in the country and which, indeed, is behind the Motion which we have moved today.
  First, there is the increased charge for welfare foods. We shall save, what? A paltry few million pounds. I should have thought that it was beyond argument that the money spent on welfare foods is one of the best investments that this country has made and is making. When the Minister of Health spoke, earlier, I intervened to ask a question. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman made a real attempt to justify the increased charge for welfare foods on grounds of social policy, but we expect from the Minister of Health a balanced estimate of the gains and the losses.
  Let us look at the immense gains as a result of the development of our welfare food services. Let us look at the tremendous reduction in the maternal mortality and the saving of the lives of mothers. Let us look at the great reduction in infantile mortality. These are all of enormous importance to the well-being of the country, to its prospects, to its future, because the children of today are the men and women of tomorrow. Indeed, the gains of the last fifty years, owing to the progressive development of welfare services and, in particular, what were referred to as the nutritional services, represent some of the greatest progress made by this country in the last half century.
  Now we are to cut this service. There can be no mistake that the increase in the payment will mean a cut in the service. It cannot be justified on grounds of social policy. The United Kingdom has a national income of £16,000 million and
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  a Budget running into thousands of millions. We shall jeopardise the gains, that we have made in this sphere to save' a paltry few million pounds.
  The same applies to the school meals and to the prescription charges. None of these recent charges can be justified on grounds of social policy. They are niggardly economies, amounting to a few million pounds in an enormous budget. I have listened to and taken part in numerous debates of this kind and I have not yet heard anyone justify the prescription charges. Hon. Members and people outside the House who have the widest experience and the greatest right to speak about these problems are unanimous in completely condemning the step that has been taken.
  There are also the changes which have taken place in housing and rent policy, another attack upon what has become well-established social policy. Two things are happening. First, for forty years tenants have been protected by law, but that protection is now going, and the consequences will be very serious, not least perhaps in the field of industrial relations. Secondly, it is now clear that, apart from slum clearance, it is the policy of the Government to abandon housing as a social policy and to return to the old days of speculative building. That will be a tremendous setback to our people. It is already arousing intense bitterness and opposition.
  It is fear of the cumulative effect of these policies which is behind not only the Motion but the successive defeats, which the Government have sustained in the country. There will be further defeats, because the country is making up its mind that the Government, though they render lip service to the Welfare State, are increasingly, in niggardly ways—not making a frontal attack—chipping away at the Welfare State and undermining its effectiveness and scope.
  There is another matter on which both the Minister of Housing and Local Government and the Chancellor have recently spoken. It will be a very big change. In the field of social services, responsibility is shared between the central Government and local government for certain services, and among the most important of these is education. The Minister has said that the Government

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  propose to discuss, and eventually, presumably, to present to the House, a proposal by which the present distribution of responsibility between the central Government and local government is to be fundamentally changed by the introduction of a new block grant formula.
  The Chancellor used what I thought were rather ominous words when commending it to the House. He said that what he and the Government hoped to achieve by the block grant which it is proposed to substitute for the present percentage grant is a stabilising influence in the central Government's contribution to local expenditure. I have discussed this matter with hon. Friends of mine who are engaged in or associated with local government administration, and they are all afraid of it and have grave apprehensions.
  I am proud to live in a county where, through Labour administration in the last fifteen or twenty years, we have built up, on the basis of Education Acts, and particularly the 1944 Act, provision for education to a level which is equal to anything in the United Kingdom. There is now concern that the new formula will chain and handicap progressive authorities and keep them down to the level of the most backward and most reactionary authorities. It is felt that as a consequence one of the most sinister attacks is upon our social services and particularly our expenditure on education, and also in the very wide and important field which is provided for by Part III of the National Assistance Act. One consequence will be a serious reduction in the provision of social services in so far as they are administered by local authorities. All this, added together, seems to us to show the emergence of a pattern of policy by the Government which, in our view, is bound seriously to handicap and reduce the effectiveness of our social services, and it is for that reason that we tabled our Motion.
  I now come to a subject which I want to deal with in some detail, because it is of the greatest importance. There is, for example, the Measure, already announced, by which the Government propose to increase the insurance contribution in order to provide for an increased contribution to the Health Service. Perhaps the Minister of Pensions and
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  National Insurance will tell us, because the Minister of Health referred to this, whether there is to be any provision to earmark this for certain purposes.
  The flat rate of contribution was commended by Beveridge. I accepted that recommendation and embodied it in the 1946 Act. When I introduced the Bill, the level of contributions for the contributor of 18 years of age and over was 4s. 11d. for National Insurance and the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act, with provision for an extra 2d. or 4d. shortly afterwards. I realised from the beginning that the strongest argument for flat rate system of contributions was that for a generation or more the country had been used to an insurance system based upon a flat rate contribution and flat rate benefits. If hon. Members read the Beveridge Report, they will see that that was the strongest argument in its favour. I also realised that a point might be reached in the future where the flat rate contribution would have two consequences.
  First, it would become a kind of regressive taxation, putting the biggest burden upon those least able to bear it, and. secondly, it would become the biggest obstacle to the expansion of social services because the contribution fixed on the flat rate all the time would depend upon the capacity to pay of those least able to bear it. It will now go to 7s. 5d. when this extra 8d. is added to the contribution which is paid by all male adult contributors of 18 years of age and over. But it is paid by all of us? Let me deal with the problem.
  Since 1946, there have been very great changes. The fact is that the only person who now pays the full insurance contribution is the person who does not earn enough to pay Income Tax. That is the truth and the Minister knows it. There are in this country 5 million, 6 million or 7 million people, most of them contributors to the National Insurance scheme who do not earn enough to pay Income Tax. All hon. Members are insured under the National Insurance Scheme and our contributions are deducted from our pay each month, but the part of the contribution which we pay towards retirement pension we are allowed to set off against the claim for Income Tax. The result is, therefore, that that part of the contribution which we

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  pay for our retirement pension is sub-vented by the State as it is, indeed, for most kinds of superannuation.
  The man who does not earn enough to pay Income Tax bears the whole of the burden. Let us realise what we are doing by adding this new 8d. to the insurance contribution. The heaviest burden will fall upon the contributor who earns the least, who has the least income That is what we are doing.
  Sir S. Summers: Surely the right hon. Gentleman will agree that those who have their contributions subsidised, as he claims, by the fact that it is a charge against tax, themselves contribute additionally through the very tax they pay.
  Mr. Griffiths: The Minister of Health posed a question and I will answer him at once. He asked whether it was better for people to pay for the Health Service, for example, in part through their contributions, or through their tax, the assumption being that everybody pays in some form or other. But that is not true. That is why I say that by adding these contributions towards the cost of the Health Service we are putting the extra cost of the Service on those least able to bear it. Therefore, it is a regressive tax and unfair.
  When I introduced the National Insurance Bill we incorporated 10d. a week in the payment as a carry-over of the contributions under the old scheme. One of the benefits which contributors received under the pre-1946 Act scheme was a Health Service for himself completely free, including free prescriptions. The Government are now making him pay increased contributions and an increased charge for prescriptions, so that relatively the insured contributor is in a worse position than under the old Act of 1911.
  Sir K. Joseph: Is the right hon. Gentleman complaining because Tory Governments have removed tax from those wage earners who were paying tax when the system was introduced?
  Mr. Griffiths: What I am saying is that the tax system relates to what is earned by those who pay and that the flat rate system, which has now reached 7s. 5d., has become regressive taxation and we must reconsider it. If, in a few months' time, the Minister of Pensions and
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  National Insurance brings forward proposals for increasing insurance contributions, the contributions may be increased to 8s. We have reached the stage, as the hon. Member for Cheadle said, at which we must review the whole matter, including the financing, in the light of the experience we have gained. The flat rate contribution has definitely reached a stage at which it is regressive and an obstacle to progress. We must think again about financing the schemes.
  There is another reason. What we have been discussing is the basic service of preventing destitution. There have been many changes in social services, particularly in social insurance services, since 1948. One of the most important—and I can refer to it only briefly—has been the development through negotiations, collective bargaining and other ways of what the Americans call fringe benefits.
  The whole trend of thinking about social policy has moved away from Beveridge's conception of a subsistence level. We accepted Lord Beveridge's subsistence concept during and immediately after the war. We were thinking entirely in the context of our experience of the 1920s and 1930s—mass unemployment, low wages, the means test, and all the tragedy of those years. What we were concerned to do was to impose a definite platform below which no one would fall.
  In every field we are departing from that principle now. We have now reached the stage when we have two types of old-age pensioner, one of which, in addition to his basic pension, has his superannuation. There are now between 8 million and 9 million of these, and they are increasing all the time. In his Report, Lord Beveridge envisaged a country in which there would be uniform provision for everybody by one comprehensive insurance scheme. What we now have is a rapid development of all kinds of supplementary provisions to the insurance scheme.
  Miners have a special scheme relating to industrial injuries—I believe that the mining industry is the only one that has it—and they are now looking forward to a separate scheme of sickness benefit, by which they will receive full pay for a period and half pay for another period when they fall sick. They have also developed a superannuation scheme.

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  Partly as a consequence of full employment and partly owing to the development of a social conscience, what was at one time regarded as the prerogative of the white collar and supervisory grades of workers is now becoming the demand of everybody in industry. There is a tremendous demand for a rise in status. and that brings with it a new conception.
  The important thing to remember is the relationship between the benefits provided during adversity and the earnings obtained during work. The fact is that the gap between earnings and benefits is increasing, and not lessening.
  The Minister of Health quoted from a very interesting article by a special correspondent in The Times the other day. But he quoted only part of the article. He knew perfectly well that the writer applied this test to the present position in regard to social insurance benefit and showed quite clearly—there is no time for me to give the actual figures—that as a proportion of earnings benefits are now lower than they were in 1946 and 1948.
  The International Labour Office has laid down its own standards and has said that for married people without children the benefit should be equal at least to half their earnings while in work and that for a married couple with two children it should be at least two-thirds of those earnings. This new concept is developing.
  In a very short time the Labour Party will be presenting the result of its survey and review of the whole of our social insurance services. We are convinced that we have reached a stage in which to continue the flat rate contribution would mean an almost complete halt in the development of those services. The Labour Party therefore proposes that the important consideration now is to ensure that those people who meet with adversity should not be subject in future, as they are now, to a terrifying adjustment and a big drop in their standard of living.
  Further, we must raise the basic scales and regard them as a platform below which no one shall fall. I have indicated that the successive measures adopted by the Government, taken together, have made life harder and more difficult for the poorer sections of the community. In that respect the Government have departed from the essential principles of
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  the Welfare State. I am proud of the Welfare State. Families are better off because of it. Now they live in council houses, and I would infinitely prefer to bring up a family in a council house than in the "rabbit hutches" which were called company houses, and which were provided in the old days.
  The father is better off. He has full employment and the security and dignity which that brings. He is becoming an increasingly responsible partner in industry and not a servant. The children are better in health and in physique and they have better opportunities. The sick, the maimed, the injured and the old people are better than they were, but still how poor they are. What a restricted, miserable life they have.
  We say that in view of the enormous resources available to us the provision of social services should be one of the first priorities on our national resources. We protest against the measures adopted by the Government. We protest against the trend which shows a clearly emerging pattern of an attack on these services and the placing of the burden on the weakest and those least able to bear it.
  9.26 p.m.
  The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): When the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), with an eloquence which few of us can attempt to emulate, came to his peroration he really condemned the substance of the Motion. Because the very eloquent, the very moving way, in which he described the steady improvement in our social service arrangements which has taken place over recent years, and the great progress in human well-being which has resulted from it, completely contradicted the attempt made by one or two of his hon. Friends to suggest in this debate, to which I listened practically throughout, that for years a Conservative Government has been wrecking the social service system.
  The right hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. He cannot pay the eloquent tribute which he did pay to our present system of social services, and the result it has produced, and, in the same breath, say that the Government responsible for administering the social services for the last six years have been engaged in wrecking them. But I will say this for the right hon. Gentleman. I think

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  he was the first speaker to try to argue the case for the Motion.
  We have had an extremely wide debate which has covered virtually the whole scope of the social services. From speeches made from both sides of the House there has emerged—as also emerged from what was said by the right hon. Gentleman when he came to the end of his speech—an admission, a view, that we need not necessarily accept that the last word in social service arrangements was said in 1948; that Lord Beveridge sprang fully armed from the head of the right hon. Gentleman—or the other way round—with a perfect social service system which it would be blasphemous to seek to modify as experience developed.
  Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman himself said that he and his right hon. and hon. Friends had been giving some thought to a possible variation in the system. Therefore, we can surely continue our discussion on the basis, not that it is the duty of any Government meticulously and automatically to preserve every detail of the existing system, but that it is the duty of the Government, from time to time, to modify the system, to expand it in some directions, and, perhaps, in that same operation, to modify and reduce it in others. Therefore, I hope that we can discuss what the Government have been doing in recent months on that basis.
  I must take up one or two of the things which the right hon. Gentleman said. He became very indignant about the extra 10d. proposed on the price of the stamp on the grounds, he said, that as a result of taxation arrangements, the extra charge would fall more heavily on the poor than on the rich. I think that the right hon. Gentleman has misapprehended the position. The only part of the National Insurance contribution which is an allowable deduction for tax is that in respect of the retirement pension, for the good reason that the retirement pension is taxable when it is paid. The extra 10d.—or, indeed, the present 10d.—for the stamp is not an allowable expense for tax. Therefore, it is wrong to suggest, as the right hon. Gentleman undoubtedly did, that the 10d. will be paid less tax by those who are better off and therefore subject to Income Tax. [Interruption.] If the right hon. Gentleman did not say it, I will give way. If he did not, I
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  cannot see the relevance of introducing the tax question at all.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: I said that the part of the flat-rate contribution which is devoted to the pension is allowable as a charge against Income Tax, and that the consequence was that the only people who now pay the charge in full without any assistance from the State were those who did not earn enough to pay Income Tax.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The right hon. Gentleman now acknowledges that we are not altering that part of the contribution which is allowable for tax. The right hon. Gentleman seems to be in a little confusion of mind in introducing this question of Income Tax when this is a matter in which the question of an allowance of tax simply does not arise.
  The right hon. Gentleman also said that he was going to list what the Government had been doing in connection with the social services, but he did not in fact do that. I do not think it is possible for the House or for people outside to form a clear judgment on the Government's recent measures in connection with the social services unless not merely one or two items but all of them are considered together. As anyone with experience of social-service administration—the right hon. Gentleman has had more, perhaps, than anyone—knows perfectly well, these services act and interact on each other and it is not fair to say that people are worse off because some downward modification has been made unless, at the same time, we take account of—to use the right hon. Gentleman's own phrase—the list of what the Government have been doing in recent months. Let me supplement what the right hon. Gentleman gave in his unduly abbreviated list. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in the terms of the Motion, he and his hon. and right hon. Friends deplore these changes in the social services which the Government have made.
  There has been the increased provision in National Insurance for widowed mothers and their children to a level for the child more than double that which was started in 1948. Is that to be deplored? There are the improvements in family allowance both in the amount for the third and subsequent children and for older children who are at school or are apprenticed, Are

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  they to be deplored? There is the improvement in the earnings limit with retirement pension and the increased provision for the older war pensioners, which came into effect only a few weeks ago. Are they to be deplored?
  Is the improvement in the comforts allowances for the seriously disabled war pensioner, which came into effect only a few weeks ago, to be deplored? There is the supplementation from the Industrial Injuries Fund for old Workmen's Compensation cases, which came into effect a few months ago, and the additional provision for sickness and unemployment benefit for widows. This, too, came into effect earlier this year. Are they among the proposals which, it is suggested, should be deplored? There is the better provision for widows brought about by reducing the qualifying period of marriage from ten years to three. It came into effect only a little time ago. Is that deplored?
  If the right hon. Gentleman is going to deplore the social service measures taken by the Government and is going to say, as he did at the Dispatch Box, that he will list these measures, it is not quite fair to ignore these changes, made in the last few months, because they are all part and parcel of the pattern of improved provision in the direction of the greatest need. They must be looked at if the House is to form a fair judgment on the other changes to which the right hon. Gentleman devoted his speech.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: The Minister will know that for most of those changes seven-eighths of the cost is not found by the Government at all but by contributors, leaving only one-eighth to be found by the Government as a deliberate piece of Government policy.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The right hon. Gentleman will know that, first, the Government make a very large contribution to the National Insurance Fund. Secondly, in the present position of the Fund acceptance of increased liabilities imposes a very serious contingent liability on the Exchequer. Thirdly, the Family Allowances changes fall directly on the Exchequer. If the right hon. Gentleman is criticising these proposals I take it that he is now criticising them on the rather unusual ground, not that the changes are not beneficial, but that they do not impose
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  sufficient liability on the Exchequer to please him. That is a very remarkable proposition. I do not believe the people who benefit—the large families, the widows, the old casualties of war or industry—will take quite such a detached view as the right hon. Gentleman appears to take.
  The difference, as I see it, between the kind of social policy for which the right hon. Gentleman stands and that which is exemplified by the changes to which I have just referred and the other changes with which I shall deal in detail in a moment, is that we have been concentrating the resources on the areas of greatest need and have taken into account the fact that for the great bulk of the population there is a higher standard of life and a higher degree of prosperity than there has ever been. We must take into account the general state of the population and the general state of their wellbeing if we are to have a sensible social policy.
  I often think that hon. Members opposite, in this matter as in others, are back thirty years ago, in the 1920's. There is nothing so static on earth as the so-called Labour movement. It is solemnly advocating a kind of Speenhamland social policy for the subsidisation of everybody, whether in full work or not, in a manner which might have been appropriate when right hon. Members opposite were forming their ideas thirty years ago, but which is completely irrelevant to the quite different circumstances of today, with high wages, high consumption and a high standard of life—in the society with which at present we have to deal. For example, we cannot take into consideration whether it is reasonable to increase the price of the stamp or not unless we take into account the average level of earnings of the great mass of contributors.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman would like to explain what is puzzling a great many of us listening to this extremely rosy picture of Tory social legislation? Could he explain to us why the Government find it so difficult to convince the electors of the benefits of their policy?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member had better not count his chickens before they are hatched. [HON. MEMBERS: "They are hatched."] He might

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  remember, if he is worrying about by-elections, that the Edmonton by-election in 1948 showed a bigger loss of votes for the then Government than any by-election since and despite that the then Government was returned to power at the following General Election.
  If I may distract the hon. Member for Nelson and Come (Mr. S. Silverman) from his predilection for electoral activities. I will return to the Motion his right hon. Friends have put on the Order Paper. As I was saying when the hon. Member intervened, it is relevant, although not a word of this fell from the right hon. Member for Llanelly, to a consideration of whether or not the increased contribution in respect of health imposes overall an excessive burden—to view that against both the general standard of living and the general standard of earnings.
  I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman fully appreciates that whereas the National Insurance contribution containing the original 10d., proposed in 1948, represented 3·6 per cent. of the then average level of earnings, the new contribution, including the further 10d., will amount only to 3·2 per cent. of the average earnings at the latest figure. I say to the right hon. Gentleman with the greatest respect that it is essential to have clearly in mind the sort of community and the standard of life which we have if we are to consider how to adjust our social services.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: The right hon. Gentleman says that the contribution is only a certain percentage of the average income but he realizes, of course, that it is not an average contribution related to earnings; it is a flat rate contribution. I have made the point to him that by adding this 10d. to the flat rate contribution he is presenting an obstacle to further progress in the Social Services because the time will come when the contribution will become unbearable to lower-paid men. I hope he will deal with that point.
  Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIf by taking a stamp of 3·2 per cent of average earnings we are constituting a barrier to future advance, we are at least doing so in somewhat less measure than did the right hon. Gentleman when he initiated a stamp at 3·6 per cent.
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  If I may proceed to deal with the matter which the right hon. Gentleman himself mentioned—the stamp—I would point out that there is nothing new in the principle behind it, which is that some contribution should be made by National Insurance contributors for the benefit of the Health Service. The right hon. Gentleman himself fixed it at 10d., and such has been the rise in earnings since then that this additional 10d., doubling the original rate, represents broadly the same proportion of earnings fixed as the Health Service contribution as was fixed by the right hon. Gentleman himself and his right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) in 1948. We are therefore not dealing with any great question of new principles. We are dealing purely with a practical question whether the figure fixed in 1948, amounting then to one-fifth of the total cost of the Health Service, should be allowed to remain as at present, at one-seventeenth of the total cost of the Health Service, or whether some adjustment such as is proposed, not the whole way back to 1948 and to one-fifth but about half-way there, to one-ninth, should be effected.
  In considering that the House will wish to face the alternatives, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health said so well earlier. No Government is prepared to allow any particular service to impose a completely unlimited charge on the economy and on the Exchequer. Certainly right hon. Gentlemen opposite did not permit it. As the House will remember, the late Sir Stafford Cripps imposed, or sought to impose, a ceiling of £400 million in 1949–50. The present cost of the Service on next year's Estimates is £690 million. It is therefore not unreasonable for any Government to say that an unlimited increase cannot be permitted.
  If one accepts that, there are three courses open; to restrict the scope of the Service—in other words, to deny the sick of this country the treatment which it is technically possible to give them; to increase charges, which has the disadvantage which several hon. Members have most eloquently stated about the present charges, that they impose a charge on a person when he is sick; or to do what we now propose, which is to impose an additional charge on the stamp, which, the House will recall, is paid only when a man is well, because when he goes on

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  sickness benefit he ceases to pay his contribution. Before the right hon. Gentleman and his friends allow themselves to become too indignant I would therefore ask them to address themselves to this practical problem. Faced with the need, which they themselves accepted at a lower figure, to secure that there is not an unlimited expansion in the cost of the Health Service, which of the three courses would they themselves prefer—increased charges, a cut in the Service or the addition to the stamp? That is the question which has to be faced.
  Miss Herbison: Before the Minister leaves that point—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] He made great play about the proportion of the National Health Service that will be financed by this additional contribution and the previous contribution. Has he added to that proportion not only the additional contribution which people will have to pay, but also the proportion they pay through prescription charges, the charges for surgical appliances and the charges for teeth and spectacles, because that is very important in this matter?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Of course, I have taken that into account. I have given the House the total, which, of course, includes the various directions from which it is made up. I am bound to say that I thought the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), with the courage which always distinguishes her in debate, was going to answer the question which I put to the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: Let me gather what the Minister has said, so that we can get it clear. He has asked which do we prefer—is it increased contributions or prescription charges? Is he now proposing to the House that these are alternatives? Is he therefore proposing that if we increase the contribution, he is now proposing to reduce or remove the prescription charge or any charge of this kind? I thought I indicated the policy which we believe this country ought to have. We must find a way by which payment of all kinds included in National Insurance must be more closely related to the ability to pay and not to a flat rate contribution.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: With very great respect, that means absolutely nothing, as the right hon. Gentleman, as an old Parliamentarian, knows perfectly well. It is not good enough for the right hon. Gentleman or for those who share that Bench with him, and who regard themselves as an alternative Government, to criticise every change that we make and never offer, as he has conspicuously refused to offer today, an alternative.
  The News Chronicle, which is, after all, not a Conservative paper, as the hon. Member on the Liberal benches knows, said this, which I think is relevant:
  "It is all very well for Labour Members to shout, 'Resign, resign' at the Chancellor when he makes some unpopular announcement of higher charges for Welfare Services. What the country wants over the whole field of Labour policy is a sign of a genuine alternative. So far, the Labour Party has shirked the financial implications of its policies."
  The House and the right hon. Gentleman must face the financial implications of their policies. I have made it as clear as I can that our policy with the limited resources that clearly are and always will be available to the community, which in work is now enjoying the highest standard of living it has ever known, is to try to concentrate the resources where they are most needed—on the old, the sick, the large families and those who need it most—and not to spread social benefits, in the form of general subsidies, whether they be on food or rent, over the population, the great majority of whom do not need them.
  I do not think that right hon. Gentlemen opposite deny the high standard which the great mass of wage earners now enjoy. Certainly, the Daily Herald acknowledges it—[HON. MEMBERS: "They have earned it."] Certainly, and worked for it, and it is an admirable thing, but it is a factor to be taken into account when right hon. Gentlemen opposite suggest that people in that position require a large number of subsidised commodities in their budgets. It is a fact which the Daily Herald acknowledges in its advertising if not in its editorial columns and it is a fact which the Co-operative movement has triumphantly proclaimed in the bumper sales which it claims to have achieved—and good luck to it—last Christmas. Therefore, the House must have in mind that

  337
  we are dealing with a community that is able to pay increasing amounts for the various thing that it needs and does not require budgetary additions such as hon. Gentlemen opposite are getting very excited about.
  It is not fair to suggest, as has been suggested, that this Government have made an attack on the social services. That is very far from the truth. Opinions can vary, and properly so, as to the precise emphasis to be placed on one service rather than on another and as to which at any particular moment it is better to develop and which it is less necessary to develop. That is a matter on which there can be legitimate differences of opinion, not only between the two sides of the House, but among hon. Members. What is unfair and what is not borne out by the facts is to say, as the hon. Lady the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mrs. Slater) said, and as several hon. Members sought to say, that the Government have made an attack on these social services.
  Let me remind the House of the increases which have been made in some of them since we came into office. In education, there has been an increase in the Estimates provision of 94 per cent. during the lifetime of this Government. Does that look like attacking the social services? In National Insurance benefits, the increase under the present Government has been 78 per cent.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: What about contributions?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the Government make a big contribution.
  Mr. Ross: Not an additional one.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: And in family allowances, there has been an increase under this Government of 95 per cent. What we have said is that a population able, as the published figures show——
  Mr. Griffiths: To get the balance clear, will the Minister set against these the reductions made in subsidies in other ways by this Government which have increased the cost of living?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: If the right hon. Gentleman has followed my argument, I have been trying to say—and I have been trying to be fair about this—that we do, as a matter of clear-cut policy,
  338
  tend to reduce or eliminate the general subsidies which benefit all, rich and poor alike, and which benefit a population the vast majority of whom do not need them and to use the money saved thereby to help those who are economically vulnerable. If I have not explained that clearly to the right hon. Gentleman, I am sure the fault was mine.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: I think the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly right in saying that people ought to pay according to their ability. If it is put on as a poll tax without question of their ability to pay, is that not a much less fair method of charging than to put it on in taxation, which people pay according to their ability?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: If the right hon. Gentleman had followed what I was saying, he would know that I dealt with that some minutes ago. I was dealing with the exact converse of it—that is to say, the giving of benefits where they are most needed.
  The question of a flat-rate contribution was settled in the first place by right hon. Gentlemen opposite when they introduced the National Insurance Act, 1946. It is a little late in the day for them now to come back and say that a flat-rate contribution is unfair, particularly when, as I pointed out earlier, the new flat-rate contribution will represent a smaller proportion of average earnings than did the original contribution in 1948.
  The House and right hon. Gentlemen opposite must face the fact that the amount of money available for the social services is clearly not unlimited. It never has been under this or any other Government. I have tried to put our more selective approach as far as the benefits which are based on taxation are concerned. What I have said does not apply, clearly, to the great contributory scheme of National Insurance, whose great merit is that its benefits are paid to all as a right and without a means test. I am sure that the House and people outside will appreciate——
  Mr. Roy Mason: What about the by-elections?
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member might think less about by-election results and a little more about the social services of the country.
  Mr. Ross: There was a very good maiden speech today from my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) to which the right hon. Gentleman has not referred.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I think that the House will accept that the worst betrayal of our social services and the beneficiaries would be to allow their foundations to be eroded by financial strain, to allow too heavy a load of expenditure to be accumulated so as to cause the whole system to collapse through excessive strain. That would be a real betrayal of
  the social services, because it would mean that the real impact of the disaster would fall heaviest on those who depend upon these social services for their wellbeing—upon the poorest of the poor. We shall, as we have done before as trustees of the social services of the country, administer them to the full benefit that the economic situation of the country is able to maintain.
  Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 247, Noes 311.

  Division No. 79.]

  AYES

  [9.57 p.m.

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Albu, A. H.

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Fienburgh, W.

  MacDermot, Niall

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Finch, H. J.

  McGhee, H. G.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Fletcher, Eric

  McGovern, J.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Forman, J. C.

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Baird, J.

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Balfour, A.

  Gibson, C. W.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Gooch, E. G.

  Mahon, Simon

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Benson, G.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

  Beswick, Frank

  Grey, C. F.

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Blackburn, F.

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Mason, Roy

  Boardman, H.

  Hale, Leslie

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Messer, Sir F.

  Bowles, F. G.

  Hannan, W.

  Mikardo, Ian

  Boyd, T. C.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Hastings, S.

  Monslow, W.

  Brockway, A. F.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Moody, A. S.

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Healey, Denis

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  Mort, D. L.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Moss, R.

  Burke, W. A.

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Moyle, A.

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

  Mulley, F. W.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Holman, P.

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Holmes, Horace

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Callaghan, L, J.

  Houghton, Douglas

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

  Carmichael, J.

  Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Howell. Denis (All Saints)

  Oram, A. E.

  Champion, A. J.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Orbach, M.

  Chapman, W. D.

  Hubbard, T. F.

  Oswald, T.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Owen, W. J.

  Coldrick, W.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Padley, W. E.

  Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Paget, R. T.

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Hunter, A. E.

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Deame Valley)

  Cove, W. G.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Cronin, J. D.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Parker, J.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon, G. A.

  Parkin, B. T.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon, H.

  Janner, B.

  Paton, John

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Peart, T. F.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Pentland, N.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  jeger, Mrs. Lena (Holbn & St. Pncs, S.)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Deer, G.

  Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Probert, A. R.

  Delargy, H. J.

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Pryde, D. J.

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

  Kenyon, C.

  Randall, H. E.

  Dye, S.

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Rankin, John

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Reeves, J.

  Edelman, M.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Reid, William

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Ledger, R. J.

  Rhodes, H.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Roberta, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Stonehouse, J. T.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Panoras, N.)

  Stones, W. (Consett)

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Ross, William

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  Wigg, George

  Royle, C.

  Stress, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Short, E. W.

  Swingler, S. T.

  Willey, Frederick

  Shurmer, P. L. E.

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Thornton, E.

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

  Timmons, J.

  Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

  Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

  Tomney, F.

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Snow, J. W.

  Usborne, H. C.

  Winterbottom, Richard

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Viant, S. P.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Warbey, W. N.

  Woof, R. E.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Weitzman, D.

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Steele, T.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Zilliacus, K.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. (Ipswich)

  West, D. G.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Pearson.

  NOES

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Aitken, W. T.

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Cunningham, Knox

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Currle, G. B. H,

  Hay, John

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Dance, J. C. G.

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

  D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Arbuthnot, John

  Deedes, W. F.

  Hesketh, R. F.

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Ashton, H.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Atkins, H. E.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  du Cann, E. D. L.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Hobson, J. G. S.(War'ck& Leam'gtn)

  Balniel, Lord

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Barber, Anthony

  Duthie, W. S.

  Hope, Lord John

  Barlow, Sir John

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Hornby, R. P.

  Barter, John

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Beamish, Maj. Tufton

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Howard, Gerald (Cambrideshire)

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Erroll, F. J.

  Howard, Hon, Greville (St. Ives)

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Howard, John (Test)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald

  Fell, A.

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Finlay, Graeme

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Bidgood, J. C.

  Fisher, Nigel

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Hurd, A. R.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Forrest, G.

  Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

  Bishop, F. P.

  Fort, R.

  Hyde, Montgomery

  Black, C. W.

  Foster, John

  Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

  Body, R. F.

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Boothby, Sir Robert

  Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Bossom, Sir Alfred

  Freeth, Denzil

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Braine, B. R.

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  Johnson, Howard (Kempton)

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Gibson-Watt, D.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Glover, D.

  Joseph, Sir Keith

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Godber, J. B.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

  Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan

  Kaberry, D.

  Bryan, P.

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Keegan, D.

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Gower, H. R.

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Kerr, H. W.

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Grant, W. (Woodside)

  Kershaw, J. A.

  Campbell, Sir David

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

  Kimball, M.

  Carr, Robert

  Green, A.

  Kirk, P. M.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Lagden, G. W.

  Channon, Sir Henry

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Grosvenor, L.-Col. R. G.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Gurden, Harold

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Cooke, Robert

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Leavey, J. A.

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  Leburn, W. G.

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Corfield, Capt. F. V.

  Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Craddook, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Crouch, R. F.

  Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)

  Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

  342

  343

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (Sutton Coldfield)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Lloyd, Mai. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-S-Mare)

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Osborne, C.

  Stoddart Scott, Col. M.

  Low, Rt. Hon. A. R. W.

  Page, R. G.

  Storey, S.

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Panned, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

  Partridge, E.

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  McAdden, S. J.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Mackesen, Brig. Sir Harry

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Temple, J. M.

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Pott, H. P.

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Thompson, Lt.-Cdr.R. (Croydon, S.)

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Profumo, J. D.

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Raikes, Sir Victor

  Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Ramsden, J. E.

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Maddan, Martin

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Redmayne, M.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Renton, D. L, M.

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

  Marshall, Douglas

  Rippon, A. G. F.

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Mathew, R.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Maude, Angus

  Robertson, Sir David

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. D. C.

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

  Robson-Brown, W.

  Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Mawby, R. L.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Russell, R. S.

  Webbe, Sir H.

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Whitelaw, W. S. I. (Penrith & Border)

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Schofield, Lt-Col. W.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Sharpies, R. C.

  Wills, G. (Bridgwater)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Nairn, D. L. S,

  Shepherd, William

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Neave, Alrey

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Woollam, John Victor

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Yates, William (The Wreldn)

  Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E.& Chr'ch)

  Soames, Christopher

  Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Mr. Heath and Mr. Oakehott

  O'Neill, Hn. Phellm (Co. Antrim, N.)

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

  GRAVING DOCK, CLYDESIDE
  Motion made, and Question proposed. That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. R. Thompson.]
  10.9 p.m.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: It is in somewhat sad circumstances that I raise the question of a graving dock on Clydeside tonight, for we know that the shipbuilding and ship repairing industries are in the midst of great industrial conflict. However, I am sure that once the issue has been resolved, to the satisfaction, I hope, of most parties, and certainly to that of the nation, we shall turn again to the problems which confront the shipbuilding and ship repairing industries.
  I wish to raise the subject of the proposed graving dock on the Clyde, not strictly from a constituency point of view, although I immediately confess to a substantial vested interest in the matter, but because I am concerned, as a Clydeside Member, that the prosperity of the Clyde Valley shall be maintained and, indeed, improved as the years go on.
  I want to go over briefly the case for a dock in this area. There are, I understand, in the United Kingdom 11 major dry docks suitable for ship repairing. Four of these docks are in use for liners and are almost always occupied in that kind of work. Two of the docks are at Southampton; one is the Gladstone Dock, on the Mersey, and the fourth is the King George V Dock, at London, leaving seven dry docks.
  I would direct the Minister's attention to an article I had in one of the shipbuilding journals in the spring of 1955. It was a long article and a well-known one in the business. It pointed out the lack of docks in the whole of North-West Europe, quite apart from the actual seven docks which exist at present in Great Britain. These docks alone are capable of taking today's large ships. When one turns to the Clyde, which does not have a large graving dock, it seems rather surprising that in an area which builds two-fifths of the United Kingdom tonnage, and repairs a substantial number of ships coming into our harbours, we are unable
  346
  to accommodate a ship with a beam exceeding 85½ feet.
  I understand that the Govan Dock No. 3 is the largest dry dock we have that can accommodate such a ship. A ship of that size is of a tonnage of probably 30,000. At present, oil tankers of 38,000 tons are being built in this country and they are by no means the most ambitious of the ships that are being envisaged. An oil tanker of 38,000 tons has an average beam of 95 ft., which means that not one of the tankers being built in this country can be repaired on the Clyde.
  There are, I understand, 24 of these ships in the United Kingdom under construction or on order, and there are in the world more than 100 such vessels being constructed which, at some time or other, will visit our ports, this country being a great shipping nation. Each of these ships will probably have a beam exceeding 100 ft. There again, the ships being constructed this year will not be able to be accommodated in our docks.
  We know how the prospect of the dock arose on the Clyde. It was during the war, in 1943, when naval strategy was somewhat different from what it is today. It was during that year that the Admiralty launched out with the idea of constructing a large dock and it started off the initial investigations. It stimulated to a certain extent inquiries on the civil side and the investigations resulted in the Cooper Report of 1946, which argued that there ought to be an authority which governs the whole of the lower and upper reaches of the Clyde. The Clyde Navigation Trust extends just to the boundary of the Greenock Harbour Trust and it was in this latter area that the proposed dock of the Admiralty was outlined.
  There were several alternatives and I am sure that the Minister will not make play with the local friction which exists in choosing one or the other. That is a matter which can be easily resolved by the navigational people concerned. This dock is now resting in the limbo of improbability because the change in Admiralty strategy is such that the Navy no longer needs this dock and, therefore, the Admiralty would not be a senior component either in the construction or the maintenance of the dock. So much so that local or private interests have tended to think that their chances of

  347
  raising money and getting help are not so good. It is to that end that I raise this matter tonight because I want the Civil Lord to reply. He is, after all, a Clyde-side Member and, therefore, I am sure that if he has any bias at all which he may not have, it is bound to be in our favour. I want to ask him whether he will give certain assurances which I think Clydeside would welcome.
  First, we should have the Admiralty's blessing for this project and it should exert some influence with the Chancellor so that in the next Budget we have some tax relief for the construction of dry docks in this country. We had tax relief for certain aspects of shipbuilding investment in the last Budget, but no alteration in the tax allowance for investment in dry docks. We would very much like that this year, because it would enable one obstacle in the construction of this dock to be overcome.
  The second assurance I should like is that the Admiralty has not dismissed the idea of some assistance to whatever consortium of private ship repairers, or whatever quasi-public body, possibly the Clyde Navigation Trust, or a body like that, decides to construct this dock and that it is not outside the bounds of probability that the Admiralty or the Treasury will make a direct contribution to the dock as such, and/or—I use the oblique—that the Admiralty will give an assurance that some money will be worth-coming, at least for the maintenance of the dock once it is constructed.
  I respect the fact that there are other parts of the United Kingdom, for example, Tyneside, which, of their own accord, have been able to build these docks to repair ships, but there are substantial differences in the positions. One has only to study company reports and the different kind of custom to which these people in Tyneside, for example, are used, in which ship repairing is done on a much more extensive scale and where overheads have already been covered by past investment programmes. I need only underline the fact that on the Clyde, in John Brown's, £1 million is being invested—this change is long overdue—for converting three yards to two to construct 65,000 ton tankers. In my constituency the process of conversion to
  348
  build these larger ships is taking place, also.
  For those reasons, the tendency to be anxious to repair on the Clyde is bound to increase and I submit that there is a case for an assurance at this juncture of negotiation with the commercial world to encourage this proposal to go forward, a proposal which, I am sure, will be applauded by ship repairers, ship workers and the nation as a whole.
  10.18 p.m.
  Sir James Hutchison: I and all Scottish Members will be indebted, and all British Members should be indebted, to the hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon) for raising this important matter. It is not a new story. For many years efforts have been made to get a large-sized graving dock somewhere in the Clyde. I am not so parochially-minded in this matter as to try to seek to get it in my own constituency, Scotstoun. I am prepared to see whether we can get it provided in Britain. As the hon. Member said, the situation at present is topsy-turvy.
  The hon. Member referred to 35,000-ton oil tankers, but many oil tankers now in project, under construction or at sea are of very much larger dimensions than that. I understand that with very large-scale tankers it becomes a paying proposition, financially feasible, to sail round the Cape instead of going through the Canal and that is, therefore, one of the solutions of the oil problem. Many minds are turning continually and progressively to building bigger and bigger tankers. There is no political or party content in this matter, and I am delighted that the hon. Member has raised it. The Clyde is proud of having built the "Queens" and vessels of that sort of size, but it s with a sigh that we see them depart, because we know that they cannot come back to the Clyde.
  The nation needs more large-scale graving docks, because the size of ships is always growing, and because of the tanker problem. I hope that my hon. Friend will have noted the sort of help that might be given to any body which is prepared to go ahead with this much-needed scheme, which will be greatly beneficial to Scotland.
  10.20 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: The hon. Member for Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison) has said that this is an old story on Clydeside. It is more than an old story; it is an old complaint. We are deeply indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon) for providing us with a chance of impressing upon the Civil Lord the importance of this graving dock.
  As a representative of the upper reaches of the Clyde, I can say that we shall be very glad if the dock is placed in the lower reaches, at Greenock. During the weekend, as my hon. Friend has said, the Chairman of the Shipping Conference, who is also the Vice-Chairman of John Brown's, told us that they were investing £1 million in converting three berths into two berths, in order to be able to take 85,000-ton tankers and to meet the problem to which the hon. Member for Scotstoun has referred. On Wednesday last week, when we were debating a similar subject, we had not got that information, neither had the Civil Lord himself, as was evidenced when I put a question to him. We are glad to have it now from Sir James.
  If we are to build 85,000-ton tankers it is important that we should also be able to fit them out and service them. It is an old complaint on Clydeside that although we build the greatest ships in the world we are unable to fit them out and service them. Not only from the shipbuilding point of view, but also from the point of view of the total number of ships moving in and out of the port of Glasgow, we need a graving dock there, and I hope that the Civil Lord will accept the plea that has been made and use his influence to see that this graving dock comes to Greenock.
  10.23 p.m.
  Vice-Admiral John Hughes Hallett: I shall detain the House only for one minute. I support the plea of the hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon) in this matter. If the Government are going to give support to this project, however, I would ask them to do so in a big way. It would be a mistake to think in terms of only 85,000-ton ships. In twenty years' time I am sure that we shall have vessels of 150,000 or even 200,000 tons, and if we are going to invest an enormous
  350
  amount of capital in a dock we may as well make certain that by the time it is finished, it will not already be on the small side.
  10.24 p.m.
  The Civil Lord to the Admiralty (Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith): This proposal to build a graving dock on the Clyde has been under discussion for many years, as hon. Members have said. I am glad that the persistence of the hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon) in trying to have this matter debated has at last been successful. As the project for a Clyde dock has a long history, I shall not worry the House with details of its earlier stages, but shall confine myself to the more recent events.
  In 1955, the Clyde Navigation Trust brought a deputation to see my predecessor, the hon. Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby), at the Admiralty. This deputation recommended that a dock having a length of between 1,500 and 1,200 feet, and a breadth of between 140 and 160 feet. should be built on one of three sites in Greenock, at an estimated cost of between £3½ million and £4½ million.
  This local initiative we in the Admiralty regarded as a most helpful sign; but the proposal. as then made, still left unanswered three basic questions, to which the hon. Gentleman has referred this evening: firstly, as to the organisation which would run the dock; secondly, as to the exact site of the dock; and, thirdly, and most important, as to the means of paying for the dock. Obviously, the kind of organisation required to run the dock, and the best site on which to build it, are matters for local decision.
  The hon. Member for Greenock said he hoped that I would not make play with the fact that local decisions had not been made. I hope he will not think that I am making play with that fact when I say that to me, as a Clydesider and a Scotsman, it was extremely distressing to learn when I came to the Admiralty in 1957 that no definite answer had yet been found to these fairly simple local problems. When the people involved have not been able to find an answer to these simple local problems, it is no wonder that the tremendous task of financing the project has met with hardly any success at all. Indeed, I have been

  351
  informed that none of the money required for the project could be found on Clydeside.
  I was proposing to make a quotation from the Scotsman, though I do not know how wise it is, in a debate concerning Glasgow and the Clyde, to take a quotation from an Edinburgh newspaper. But on 13th February of this year, the Ship Owners' Association, knowing the facts which I have just stated, is reported to have said that it could now only hope that the Government might be prepared to assume financial responsibility. Commenting on this, the Scotsman said that surely this was a counsel of despair. I am afraid that is precisely what it is—a counsel of despair.
  Mr. Rankin: They were thinking of this Government.
  Mr. Galbraith: A lot has been made of the strategic need for a dock on the Clyde. Indeed, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, that is how this whole thing started. I know that at one time it was hoped that the Admiralty might be induced to contribute on the grounds of strategy. When it became clear that strategy did not justify the expenditure of public money in that way, the suggestion was made that the dock was a national necessity. That was one of the points made by the hon. Gentleman, and also by my hon. Friend the Member for Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison). I must confess that I am not certain what "national necessity" means in this context. At the moment, there is an approximate balance between berth and docking facilities for large ships——
  Dr. Dickson Mabon Dr. Dickson Mabon: At the moment.
  Mr. Galbraith:—but, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, and it was also pointed out by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett), there is a continued tendency towards the construction of ships of an even wider beam, particularly tankers, which, naturally, will require bigger docking facilities. If that is what the hon. Gentleman meant when he said there was a national necessity for the provision of larger docks, I am more or less in agreement with him. However, I would point out to the hon. Gentleman, and to everyone who has taken part in the debate
  352
  tonight, that so far as the country is concerned, the important thing is not so much the situation of the dock, but the existence of the necessary docking facilities somewhere in this island.
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: May I point out to my hon. Friend that the great advantage of Greenock is that it is one of the few docks which it is comparatively easy to enter in any states of weather for ships of a very great size?
  Mr. Galbraith: That may be so, but at the moment new projects, privately financed, are being undertaken in other parts of the country, for example, on the Mersey and at Falmouth. Those docks will be capable of docking ships very much bigger than anything which is being built in the country at the moment. To my mind that is precisely what the shipbuilding interests of the Clyde should be doing. They should be doing the same as is being done on the Mersey, and at Falmouth, and what is planned at Milford Haven. I am afraid they are missing a great opportunity.
  The hon. Member suggested that the Admiralty might try to bring together the various interests and stimulate them into enthusiasm. I do not think that action would be at all appropriate. If this venture is to succeed the driving force behind it must be the force of local enthusiasm. Because of that I was very interested to read the other day in the Press a report that the Scottish Council for Development and Industry had taken the matter up and was giving a lead in seeking to establish a new fitting-out basin on the Clyde as a preliminary to, bringing together the interested parties capable of financing the dry dock project. That is the right spirit and it is most encouraging to know that the supposed inability of local interests to finance the dock is to be reviewed. Everything depends on that.
  I know that financing the dock is a tremendous task. The hon. Member referred to taxation problems. Perhaps he will be interested to know that at the moment the Drydock Owners' Central Council is discussing taxation problems with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I cannot tell the hon. Member more than that at the moment. The task of financing the dock is a tremendous one. I do not underestimate the difficulty in

  353
  any way, but, however, sympathetic I naturally am as a Clydesider and a Scotsman—there is nothing I should like to see more, although with the exception of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) my constituency is less likely to be involved than those of the hon. Members who have spoken in this debate—no Government, if the conditions were equal, could assist financially a new dock on the Clyde when on other rivers in the United Kingdom large new docks are already being financed wholly from private resources.
  Sir J. Hutchison: I am interested in what my hon. Friend is saying, but are they graving docks, or discharging facilities?
  Mr. Galbraith: They are graving docks. It is difficult to understand the reluctance of the Clyde to finance their own development on this occasion as they have always financed developments in the past with conspicuous success. I would remind the hon. Member that it was not by talking of national necessity or holding out their hands for public money that the Clyde has developed from a small insignificant stream to being the greatest shipbuilding area in the world. All that was achieved by hard work and self-help. Now that the shipbuilding interests on the Clyde know that it is general Government policy not to aid from public funds the construction of graving docks, the way is open to them for a new beginning back to the old spirit of their ancestors, the spirit of independence and enterprise which won so much for the Clyde in the past and which I am sure is still the key to a brilliant future.
  Mr. Ross: Will the hon. Gentleman appreciate that help from the Government at the right time can do a lot? He has spoken about private initiative. Does he remember that the two greatest ships, the "Queens," were only built because the Government came in to help private
  354
  enterprise at the time? Will the Government do the same again?
  Mr. Galbraith: I believe the hon. Member could have made a good case if graving docks were not being built of the requisite size in other parts of the Kingdom and if on the Clyde resources could not be found to do what people think is necessary for facilities there.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: I am indebted to the hon. Gentleman for his reply and will not argue now the point about the peculiar circumstances of ship repairing. What I should like the hon. Gentleman to answer is the last two questions which I asked about the assurances concerning sponsorhip, either in the initial construction or later in the maintenance. I only-ask him to give me, if he likes, a statement in the double negative—that is, that the Admiralty or the Government are not disinclined towards or have not put out of their minds entirely the idea of being a contributory participant in one or other or both of these ideas.
  Mr. Galbraith: I would like to be able to give that assurance, but in view of the developments which are taking place other areas it is, as I stated, general Government policy not to aid from public funds the construction of graving docks. I am sure that the shipbuilding interests on the Clyde ought to realise that and ought not to hope that the work will be done for them by any Government Department. They really must get together themselves and do something much more constructive than they have done so far.
  The Admiralty and the Government are most anxious to do anything that they can to help in all sorts of ways, for instance, by giving advice, but Government policy is not to aid from public funds the construction of graving docks.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-four minutes to Eleven o'clock.

  DEFENCE WHITE PAPER
  DEFENCE WHITE PAPER
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Big Ben Tower (Removal of Scaffolding)
  Big Ben Tower (Removal of Scaffolding)
  Palace of Westminster (Cleaning of Windows)
  Palace of Westminster (Cleaning of Windows)
  Osborne House, Cowes (Admission of Public)
  Osborne House, Cowes (Admission of Public)
  Painted Hall, Greenwich (Cleaning)
  Painted Hall, Greenwich (Cleaning)
  Temple, Avebury (Excavations)
  Temple, Avebury (Excavations)
  Public Buildings, London (Floodlighting)
  Public Buildings, London (Floodlighting)
  Building Contracts
  Building Contracts
BRITISH ARMY
  Captured Terrorists, Cyprus (Cash Rewards)
  Captured Terrorists, Cyprus (Cash Rewards)
  Watch Repairers, 36 Base Workshops (Employment)
  Watch Repairers, 36 Base Workshops (Employment)
  Information Officers
  Information Officers
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Restrictive Trading Agreements (Register)
  Restrictive Trading Agreements (Register)
  Anglo-European Trade
  Anglo-European Trade
  Monopolies Commission (Building Industry)
  Monopolies Commission (Building Industry)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Nationalised Industries (Price Stabilisation)
  Nationalised Industries (Price Stabilisation)
  Hydrocarbon Oils Duty
  Hydrocarbon Oils Duty
  National Debt (Interest and Management Cost)
  National Debt (Interest and Management Cost)
  Overseas Sterling Holdings (Interest)
  Overseas Sterling Holdings (Interest)
  University Teachers (Salaries)
  University Teachers (Salaries)
  Development Commission, Wales
  Development Commission, Wales
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Water Supplies, Essex (Survey Report)
  Water Supplies, Essex (Survey Report)
  Coast Protection (Exchequer Grants)
  Coast Protection (Exchequer Grants)
HOUSING
  Council House Rents (Agricultural Workers)
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  Old People's Dwellings, London and Middlesex
  Rent Bill (Letter)
  Rent Bill (Letter)
  New Towns (Rent Increases)
  New Towns (Rent Increases)
ROYAL NAVY
  Shipping (Nuclear Propulsion)
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MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
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AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Information Officers
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  Hill Sheep Subsidy, Wales
  Hill Sheep Subsidy, Wales
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  Farmer (Sentence)
  Farmer (Sentence)
COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  University, Salisbury (African Students)
  University, Salisbury (African Students)
MINISTRY OF POWER
  Nuclear Power Stations
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TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Kiosks
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SCOTLAND
  Street Trading
  Street Trading
  Crawford By-pass
  Crawford By-pass
ROADS
  Halt Sign, Hertford-Welwyn Road
  Halt Sign, Hertford-Welwyn Road

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Lord St. Oswald—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

PORT OF LONDON BILL [H.L.]
Read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
BLYTH HARBOUR BILL [H.L.]
Read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

CAPITAL EXPENDITURE ON WATER UNDERTAKINGS
2.35 p.m.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what priority they can now accord to capital expenditure on water under-takings, seeing that the "credit squeeze" has cut this from £30 million per annum from 1946 to 1954 down to £24 million currently, although industrial uses of water are rapidly increasing and drought years will again recur.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, schemes for water supply were not exempted from the restrictions on capital expenditure which it was necessary to impose last year, but the curtailment has not been as severe as my noble friend suggests. I will, with my noble friend's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the annual amounts of capital expenditure on water supply since the war. Her Majesty's Government fully recognise the importance of water supply, and the noble Lord may be assured that the essential needs of industrial users and other consumers are met.
Following are the figures referred to:
Authorised capital expenditure on water supply in the post-war years has been as follows:

£ million

1946 to 1950

13·1 (annual average)

1951

19·5

1952

20·5

1953

15·8

1954

21·1

1955

27·6

1956

23·8

LONDON BASIN WATER EXTRACTIONS
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how Section 14 of the Water Act, 1945, has been applied in regard to extractions in the London Basin from wells and boreholes; and whether the new mammoth buildings receive the right to a proportionately greater extraction rate on their predecessors' site.]
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, Under Section 14 of the Water Act, 1945 (which has been amended by Section 5 of the Water Act, 1948), my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing may make Orders defining areas in which special measures for the conservation of water are necessary in the public interest. In such areas, with certain limited exceptions, a licence must be obtained from my right honourable friend before any new well or borehole is sunk, or the capacity of an existing one is increased, for the purpose of abstracting additional quantities of water. If the London Basin is taken as being the area of the chalk extending approximately from St. Albans in the North to Croydon in the South, and from Romford in the East to Windsor in the West, the whole of it is covered by Orders so made. The Government are aware of the decline of underground water levels resulting from over-pumping in the London Basin and applications for licences are very critically examined. Only in quite exceptional circumstances would licences now be granted for abstraction anywhere in the built-up area of London, and there is no question of greater rights of extraction in relation to new buildings.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Earl for his careful answer. Nevertheless, is he aware that over-pumping is still increasing, and, therefore, has his right honourable friend the Minister measures in view to withstand the further entry of salt water, owing to the progressive lowering of the water table? Perhaps the noble Earl would kindly let me have a Written Answer, as it may not be convenient to answer further now.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, as I said in my first reply to my noble friend, the Government are well aware of the decline of the underground water levels resulting from over-pumping. That, of course, is the reason why my right honourable friend examines all these licences with great care. But I will certainly go into the question of the sea-water which my noble friend mentioned in the course of his supplementary question.

OIL AND PETROL RATIONING
2.40 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF POWER (LORD MILLS): My Lords, I think your Lordships would wish to know of the latest assessment of the oil situation which was given yesterday in another place. With the permission of the House I will make a statement.
The Government have reviewed petrol rationing and other restrictions on oil consumption in the light of the latest supply position and have decided that the improved prospects warrant some relaxations. Supplies of petrol, although increasing, are still likely to remain short of normal demand, and it is therefore not possible to abolish petrol rationing at once. Nevertheless, the improved supplies are sufficient to allow the basic ration for private cars to be increased by 50 per cent. to 300 miles a month in the next rationing period beginning on April 17. This will benefit all motorists, whether they use the extra mileage for business purposes or for their holidays. In addition, the improved supplies will be taken into account in assessing claims for supplementary allowances and in dealing with applications in respect of passenger and goods vehicles requiring petrol.
Supplies of gas/diesel oil are now sufficient to enable the coupon rationing
592
scheme for Derv fuel and the other cuts on gas/diesel supplies to be brought to an end on April 1. But stocks in the hands of the oil companies must be built up during the summer to meet next winter's demands and with this end in view the companies have been asked to limit their sales to customers to minimum current needs. It is still necessary for consumers to exercise all possible economies; otherwise it may become necessary to prescribe a measure of under-delivery by the companies.
Fuel oil supplies are still below normal and stocks must be rebuilt before next winter. Although, therefore, there is no longer any danger of an increase in the present level of cuts, they must remain in force for the time being, subject to one minor relaxation in regard to fuel oil for space and water heating where the present cut of 25 per cent. will be reduced to one of 10 per cent., with effect from April 1.
The additional supplies which have made these relaxations possible have been procured only at higher cost. This is reflected in the price increases announced by the oil companies yesterday. In the case of petrol the increase is 1d. per gallon on the retail price.
2.44 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for the courtesy he has shown your Lordships' House in making this statement to-day—he could not make it in your Lordships' House yesterday. He will not mind if I offer one or two criticisms. I do not wish to look a gift horse entirely in the mouth, but I think he has treated with less than justice and equity that section of the motoring community—the private motorist—who, for one reason or another, perhaps studying the national interest or feeling that they could not make out a sufficiently good case for a supplementary ration, have tried to exist during this rationing period on the basic ration alone. Both they and that class of motorist who could not afford to run his motor car on a 200 miles a month allowance are getting very short shrift with the noble Lord's rather meagre increase of 50 per cent.
Would the noble Lord accept a suggestion from me that the private motor car basic ration alone be increased 100 per cent.? The noble Lord knows very well that the basic ration and the unit can be increased or decreased at any time that

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he wishes. Why does he wait until April 17 to do this? Why not immediately? We all know that there are ample supplies to cover it. Why end one rationing period on April 1, as he has done with diesel oil, and wait until April 17 to give the same concession to the private motorist? I would suggest to the noble Lord that he could do this overnight. It would help him in another direction. It would syphon off the extra demand that might arise if there is a bank-up, or continued bank-up, of coupons at the holiday period. May I ask him one other question? What does he intend to do with the basic ration of petrol for the petrol-driven commercial vehicle? He surely cannot allow the diesel-engined commercial vehicle to be coupon-free and ration-free, whereas the petrol-driven commercial vehicle is still subjected to a petrol ration. Of course, I am not so concerned with the commercial vehicle because we all know that now the commercial vehicle operator can get on a supplementary ration nearly as much petrol as he wants.
I have one last question—though I rather anticipate the answer, which is the formula at this time of the year, that he cannot anticipate his right honourable friend's Budget Statement. What does he intend to do about the tax? Surely it is implicit, if the tax is going to be taken off when fuel rationing ends, that, if the fuel ration is half taken off, half the tax should be taken off? Or are all the critics—and I include myself—who said that tying the 1s. a gallon tax to petrol rationing would mean not that the 1s. tax came off earlier, but that rationing stayed on later, now going to be proved true? My final word to the noble Lord is this. I would not recommend him to do without the rationing system. If he did, he would be running a risk which we in this country cannot yet afford to run. To disband the system would be wrong, but I would suggest to the noble Lord that the private motorist who has forgone any supplementary, has not gone into the black market and has tried to make do with this meagre 200 miles-a-month ration, is deserving of better treatment than he is now receiving at the hands of the noble Lord.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I be allowed to ask the noble Lord a question or two about this matter? The noble Lord will probably have seen the tape
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to-day. He will have seen that in Germany they have reduced the price of petrol. In connection with petrol rationing, there are two things: there is the amount of petrol and there is the amount one has to pay for it. Cannot the noble Lord do something on the lines the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has just suggested? Why keep the ration down to just a 50 per cent. rise? Why cannot the existing ration be doubled? Secondly, in the cost of petrol, the motorist is subjected to the purely inflationary levy of 1s. a gallon. May I ask the noble Lord whether, as he price of petrol goes up, as it was announced yesterday it would, by 1d. a gallon, the 1s. a gallon tax could be reduced by the amount by which the cost of petrol rises. Could not the noble Lord possibly see his way to give consideration to these two points?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, for his most helpful suggestions—indeed, if I may say so, I always find him most helpful in what he has to advise. But unfortunately, I have to deal with the facts of the supply situation, and I have to take into account two factors. When the noble Lord and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, hear these two factors I think they will see why I cannot accept their advice. The first is the question of stocks. It is said that our stocks are plentiful. I am glad to say that they are in a satisfactory state, but they are still rather below normal. The second factor is the question of supplies. Although supplies have been better than we anticipated, they are still below normal. Perhaps there is even a third factor to take into account—that at this time of the year, if petrol is free, consumption is liable to rise very steeply indeed.
Having considered all these factors, we have come to the conclusion that the utmost we can afford is to increase the basic ration for the next rationing period by 50 per cent., and not by any greater figure. Not only should I like to see a greater figure; I should like to see the end of rationing. For the same reason it is not possible to accept the suggestion that the value of existing coupons in the present rationing period should also be increased by 50 per cent. I can appreciate the inequalities that arise out of a rationing system. One of the reasons

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why we should like to see the end of a rationing system is because we on this side of the House, as is true of those on the other side of the House, do not believe in inequalities. But they do arise. I am conscious of the case of the motorist who laid up his car, or who did not ask for supplementary allowances. Had it been administratively possible, one might have considered their case further. But I would remind your Lordships that it is only because of the co-operation of the public that petrol rationing is in the satisfactory state that it is to-day.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, mentioned the question of petrol-driven commercial vehicles. I dealt with that in my statement and said that we would take into account the improved supplies in dealing with the applications for supplementary allowances in respect of passenger and goods vehicles requiring petrol. Then the noble Earl, Lord Howe, mentioned the fact that Germany had reduced the price of petrol. I had not seen that news on the tape, having had no particular reason to look at the tape. But this is the cheapest country in Europe for petrol, and it may well be that elsewhere the price may be reduced. So far as the tax is concerned, I think all that noble Lords will expect me to say is that I will see that their views are forwarded to the right quarter.
EARL HOWE: May I ask the noble Lord one other question? He referred to the next rationing period. I understand that the next rationing period is to run for four months—is that correct? Does not the noble Lord look forward to a still further betterment in the situation in the period from April to August? If the position gets better, would not the noble Lord be able to deal far more leniently with petrol rationing than he has so far indicated? A 50 per cent. rise means 300 miles a month, as against 200 miles. Could the noble Lord not hold out a little more hope than just to say that the 300 miles standard, if I may so call it, is to run for another four months? Could not we be told that we may hope to get a still further betterment of the situation, perhaps in the middle of April?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, in reply to the noble Earl, I think he would be wrong in assuming that petrol rationing
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is necessarily going to last for four months. Coupons for six months are being issued, but four months' coupons may be used. I repeat that we will end rationing just so soon as the supply and stock position make it possible. It may be one month; it may be two months; it may be four months, or six months. No-one can tell. But at the earliest possible moment it will be done, and I would much prefer to see that than to have to consider again increasing the value of coupons.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, with reference to the statement which the noble Lord has just made, that stocks are insufficient, may I ask whether he can confirm or deny information which reaches me, through officers of the Merchant Navy that tankers arriving in this country are being diverted abroad because of insufficient storage here at home?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, I think this information must arise from the fact that we still do a large trade in oil with Europe; and I think the tanker movements to which he refers can only be in pursuance of that trade.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, before leaving this subject, may I ask the noble Lord this question? Would he give the House an assurance that he will not close the door completely to a reconsideration of the question of allowing this increase in the basic ration to operate before April 17? If I understood him aright, he said he would do it "if it was administratively possible." Having some experience of departmental organisation in regard to this matter, I can assure him that it is administratively possible. Would he balance this factor with what the Government are losing in taxation revenue from the licences on motor cars that are laid up? That sum might not be insignificant, and the Government cannot afford to "turn up their noses" at it. That might be balanced against the bringing forward by the time I have stipulated of this concession increase of at least 50 per cent. Will the noble Lord give the House the assurance that he will at least give that point his serious consideration?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I think the noble Lord has misunderstood me. I

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never said it was administratively impossible to consider increasing the present ration by 50 per cent.: I said it was impossible because of the stock and supply position. I said it was administratively impossible to consider cases such as those of motorists who had laid up their cars or, for one reason or another, had not asked for supplementary allowances. That is quite a different thing.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, will the noble Lord take into consideration the thousands of gallons of petrol which to-day are sold by dealers all over the country without coupons, because they were over-stocked before rationing started, and which might be allowed to go to the legitimate holder of coupons on a 50 per cent. increase?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that this matter has my daily consideration, but I do not think that we should confuse stocks at individual garages with the overall stock position with which we are concerned in administering a rationing system.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, with reference to the reply which the noble Lord has been so kind as to give me, would it not indicate that the needs of foreign customers are being put before our own needs?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I believe the noble Lord would be quite wrong in arriving at that assumption. We have a very valuable trade in oil, both from the balance of payments point of view and from the point of view of tradition, with many countries in Europe, and we are right to keep that up. Moreover, the whole overall position is watched by the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation, so that there is no danger of the kind which the noble Lord fears.

TRAFFIC SIGNS REGULATIONS, 1957
3.2 p.m.
LORD SOMERS LORD SOMERS rose to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Traffic Signs Regulations, 1957 (S.I. 1957 No. 13), dated January 7, 1957, laid before the House under Standing Order No. 61 on February 8, 1957, be annulled. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving
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the Motion which stands in my name, I can assure your Lordships that I have not done so without having given it careful consideration. It must be nearly five years since I wrote to the Automobile Association on this very subject, and when I saw the new Regulations I felt that something must be done to air the matter; for I felt that they were about as unsatisfactory as they possibly could be. It may seem to some of your Lordships that I am putting it rather strongly, but these alterations are going to cost a considerable amount of money and, for some reason that must seem good to them, Her Majesty's Government have not shown any great willingness to make any major expenditure on road improvements. I feel it is highly likely that if we have the alterations now proposed we shall not get any further alteration for a very long time; therefore it seems to me that if we are to have a change now, it is essential that it should be a satisfactory one. I hope that those of your Lordships who are interested in the subject have in front of you a copy of these new Regulations, because I shall be referring to them in detail.
I will begin by saying that I am one among many others who would like to see the Continental system adopted in this country. I know many have said that we like to make a compromise between the Continental system and the American system, but I can only say that any Americans who come to this country would find our roads very puzzling in comparison with theirs, even with the same road signs as are in use in America. I hardly think their signs would be very suitable for our roads. On the other hand, the Continental signs are simple, clear and easily understood; and they provide for every possible contingency that one may come across on the roads, and do so in about twenty-four signs as against something like the 300 which your Lordships will find in this list.
The Continental signs are chiefly pictorial—another point which makes them much more easy to recognise when one is driving past them at a high speed. It also makes them understandable to those who are either illiterate (if there are any left) or who come from foreign countries. They are recognisable to all who come over from Europe. That seems to me to a valuable point. We

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have a beautiful country, in spite of the fact that in many cases we seem to be doing our best to ruin its appearance, and it is quite possible that by encouraging European motorists to visit us we might bring about a thriving tourist trade. Granted we should first have to stimulate our hotel keepers to raise the standards of their food slightly, but, none the less, it is not an impossible thing and would be highly desirable.
Let us examine these signs as they stand. On page 16 there are shown three forms of road junction sign and the old, familiar sign for a cross-roads which, as your Lordships will see, has been changed from the multiplication sign to the addition sign. I think the great point about these signs is that not one of them gives the essential information—an indication as to whose is the right of way. I feel that one should never come upon a road junction without having quite clear in one's mind whether it is one's own right of way or the other man's. None of these signs show that. At a cross-roads one road should always be considered the major, whether in fact they are equal or not, and the minor road should have a "Major Road Ahead," "Go Slow" or "Halt" sign, while for the purpose of reassuring the driver the major road could have a sign similar to that used on the Continent—an upward pointing arrow with a small stroke across it.
On the next page we have the "Roundabout" sign which is unchanged except in size. That is perfectly all right; but there are two new "Bend" signs. The old sign of the "Double Bend" has been changed slightly to conform to the actual lay-out of the road, and for a single bend we are to have the upward pointing stroke, bending either to left or right. That is certainly an improvement, but, on the other hand, it is not definite enough, because, for one thing, these signs for road junctions, cross roads and bends are scattered all over the countryside at every conceivable point. Sometimes they are very significant and sometimes they have absolutely no significance. I have many times come across a "Cross Roads" sign on a main road and discovered when I arrived at the crossroads that it consisted of just a farm track leading off on either side. When one sees the enormous number of signs and knows that they may
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or may not be significant, one tends to become careless, with the result that when a sign is significant one may do something silly. This absolutely indiscriminate use of signs in any and every circumstance should be abandoned. I do not feel that the "Bend" signs are definitive enough. They do not show whether the bend is an absolute "hairpin" or just a mild curve in the road for which one hardly needs to slow up at all. That could be made much more easily recognisable by a very simple method—by just placing inside the curve of the bend, the ratio of the curve in yards. That sounds rather involved, but the public would soon learn to recognise the fact that a large number was comparatively safe and a small number was dangerous. If they can recognise the fact that "1 in 4" means a steep hill and "1 in 120" does not, surely they can do something similar with regard to a bend.
May I revert for a moment to road junctions? One particular junction has not been provided for, and I have felt for many years that this is most important. The junction to which I refer is the "V" junction, where two major roads converge upon each other. I know one particular case of that in Norfolk where all that is given on the right hand of the two roads is a "road junction" sign—an upright stroke with a small stroke to the left implying a small side road. Of course, one does not see the road until one gets there, and there is always some difficulty in approaching these places. One has to look behind to see whether there is traffic going in the same direction and converging upon one, and one has to look in front to see if there is any traffic going across one's nose. There again it seems to me that a particular sign is needed. I would suggest an inverted "V"—a very simple sign—with either an "R" or an "L" in the centre which would imply that the converging road is on one's right or on one's left. That would be a simple solution.
We come now to page 18. Here we have three signs. One says: "Low Gear Now". The next says: "Keep In Low Gear", and the third says: "Low Gear For 1½ Miles". It seems to me that all these signs for low gear are useless because they do not apply to every class of vehicle. If you come to a sign for a hill, as given in No. 118 on the next page which reads: "Hill 1 in 12" then surely

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any sensible driver will know whether he has got to change down or not. If he is driving a very large eight-wheeler lorry, he probably will change down, but if he is driving an ordinary private car he will not. I think one should do the ordinary motorist the justice of assuming that he probably has the sense to know whether or not he needs to change down.
On page 19 we come to the same sign for different circumstances, although in fact they are the same circumstances. One says: "Road Narrows" and the other says: "Narrow Bridge". What does it matter whether it is a narrow bridge or a narrow road between two cliffs, or something of that kind? The point is that the road narrows. So why should we have to have two specific signs for one thing. Then we look at No. 121, which is a sign bearing the words "Tram Pinch". That I think, is a new one—certainly I have never seen it. As trams are rapidly being made out of date, and are disappearing from the country, I do not think we need evolve a new sign for a "Tram Pinch". In fact, I think the only vehicle that would suffer from such a thing would be an ancient Trojan with solid tyres. I have seen many ancient Trojans, but not, I think, one with solid tyres. Then on page 20 we come to two signs—"Single File Traffic" and "Single Track Road". Those are alike enough in wording to be confusing, but they mean different things. One means that you must not overtake and the other means that traffic can move only in one direction. It seems to me that the difference between the two would be much more obvious if the first one "Single File Traffic" were changed to the words: "No Overtaking".
Let us now pass to page 22. Here we find two signs which are to be used for level crossings. The first indicates a level crossing with gates, and the second a level crossing without gates. There is also an additional sign bearing the words: "Trains Cross Here". I understood from the expert at the Automobile Association Headquarters, to whom I was speaking on this subject, that the first two of these signs are considered as warning signs, and that the third is to be placed only at the actual point where the crossing of the trains take place. Surely, if one has seen warning signs one naturally looks out at any rate for rails going across the road.
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I hardly think that we need have a sign showing where the lines actually cross. They are pretty obvious if one has one's eyes on the road. On page 23 we see signs saying "Tramway Crossing", "Trams Cross Here", and "Uneven Rails". Surely those three could be dispensed with. A tramway crossing, after all, could be marked as a level crossing without gates and the same thing applies, with regard to "Trams Cross Here" and "Uneven Rails". It seems to me that the signs "Trams Cross Here", "Trains Cross Here" and "Uneven Rails" could be changed to the sign "Bad Surface", which could also apply to several signs which I am going to mention later. The "Bad Surface" sign could apply to anything in the way of temporary surfaces, newly tarred surfaces, roughly paved surfaces or anything in that line Again, on page 23 we have: "Single Track Road With Passing Places". I suppose one can say that that is necessary, since if the sign did not include the words "Passing Places", one presumably would not venture down the road.
Let us now turn to page 24. We have there three signs for fords. One says simply "Ford"; another says: "Deep Ford", and the third, which is to confront you as you have crossed the ford, says, "Try Your Brakes". What is the significant difference between a "ford" and a "deep ford"? It seems to me that if a ford is worth mentioning it will probably be a deep one. In any case, there is always a danger of getting water in one's brakes, and I should have thought that the sign, "Try Your Brakes" is an injunction to do something which most people obviously would do, though in the interests of safety it may be as well to have the sign there. On page 25, we have two signs for "Two Way Traffic". One is presumably intended for the motorist's direction at the end of a dual carriageway, at the point where it becomes a single carriageway. That is why the two arrows upon it point one up and one down. There is also another sign with the same words: "Two Way Traffic", with arrows pointing sideways, one to the right and one to the left. What is the significance of that? When you come to a "T" junction you normally expect two-way traffic—and by the time you have got there, you can see whether the road has a dual carriageway or not. In any case,

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the first direction in which one should always look is to the right, because that is whence the traffic will be approaching.
On the same page we come to the two much-discussed new signs for "School" and "Children." First of all, why have both? Surely the significance is the same. Children are children whether they are at school or not, and so far as the argument about the time of day is concerned, that does not apply, because often children are allowed to use the school playground after school hours, so that there will always be a danger that children will be there. As to the signs themselves, I think—and I know that I am not alone in this view—that they are badly designed. They are fussy and they are not easily recognisable from a distance. I know that my noble friend Lord Derwent, who is sorry that he is not here to take part in this debate but has authorised me to voice his views, has said that he very much disagrees with them because they show pictures of children doing precisely what children should not do. I think that that is a sound point, in that one surely does not want to educate children to start playing ball in the middle of the street. I think that the sign seen abroad for children is much more easily recognisable—just two children.
Going over to page 26, we have "Children crossing ahead". After the other two, why have that? What is the point? We then have No. 150, "Pedestrian crossing ahead". I must say that these pedestrian crossings have been a source of great danger, because if one cannot see them oneself, which is often the case if one is behind a lot of other traffic, one might find that one has to pull up very suddenly, and pedestrians are not always considerate in how they use them. Some sign of the sort is necessary, but again I think that a far more effective sign would be the sort of thing one sees abroad—a flashing amber light in advance of the crossing—not at the crossing, but in advance of it.
We have two signs for "Traffic signals ahead". Why two? Again I think that it is most essential that we should aim at uniformity in our signs, because the smaller the number we have for one purpose, the more easily we shall learn to recognise them and to know what they
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mean. The one given at No. 151, with a picture of traffic lights, is far more easily recognisable than just the words, "Traffic signals ahead". On page 27 we have three signs for animals: one is the picture of a cow and the word "Cattle"; the second says, "Stray Animals" and the third says, "Cattle Grid". Again it seems to me that there is much too much diversity. There should be only one sign for animals. It does not really matter in what circumstances they are crossing the road or are likely to be on the road. The point is that if there is the risk that animals may be there, one should look out. It does not matter whether one runs into a cow or a New Forest pony, the result is going to be very much the same, except, I suppose, that if one runs into a cow, one has to pay damages to the farmer, and so it is that much worse. One sign, that at No. 153, showing the picture of a cow, is ideal; and the one sign is enough for all animals.
No. 156 says "Road liable to subsidence". What is the significance there? If one sees that sign, does one drive down the road? Presumably, if one is driving an Austin Seven one might risk it, but if one is driving a large lorry one would hesitate to do so. Personally, even if I were in an Austin Seven I should not care to go down a road which was marked "Liable to subsidence". Next we come to "Temporary surface." As I have said before, I think that that could be replaced by "Bad surface". On page 28, we have three signs—four, if one includes the first one on the following page—for road works. One says, "Road works"; another says, "Road works ahead"; the third says, "Wet tar. Please drive slowly"; and the fourth says, "Temporary road surface". I should have thought that "Road works ahead" was quite enough for anybody to be on the look out and to drive slowly. Incidentally, I hope that there will be some regulation—I have found none among these—to see to it that the sign will be placed ahead so that the road works really are ahead. Too often I have seen a sign "Road works ahead" placed right up against the but in which the foreman was sitting. The other signs on page 29 I think one can pass, such as "Beware—ramp" and "Pass either side".
Now we come to the warning signs. Those in the first three pages are all right; but again, on page 33, we have

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two signs for "Turn right". One says "Turn right" and the other says "Turn right—one way only". What is the difference? The fewer words we use the better. "Turn right" means turn right and let us leave it at that. We go on to the prohibitory signs. The first I have any real grumbles about is on page 38. To me all these signs are far too wordy. One cannot stop driving a car, especially if there is a good deal of traffic behind one, and take five minutes to read through a notice such as this:
"Prohibited—locomotives, tractors, heavy motor cars and motor cars with seats for more than 15 persons unless requiring access to premises or land adjoining the road".
One must have some quick indication of whether one can go down a road or whether one cannot. Again at page 39 why have this sign:
"Play street. Prohibited—all vehicles 8 a.m. to sunset unless calling at premises in the street."
Why not just have the sign for children?
On page 40 we come to "One way" signs. This is a very knotty point. Too often, I think, these "No Waiting" signs do not show in which direction from the sign one is allowed to wait. Under every sign there should be an arrow pointing either to the left or to the right, or in both directions (incidentally, that is the way it is done abroad), so that one knows at once whether one is allowed to wait or not. There are certain places, such as in High Street, Worcester, where the permission to wait changes from one side of the street to the other, according to whether the date is odd or even. If one wants to wait, one has first to stop to consider whether it is an odd or even date; one has then to look at the sign to see whether one is within the hours; and then one has to find a place to park. During all that time traffic has been accumulating, and one is hooted at and yelled at to get out of the way. It is quite hopeless. It seems to me that the simplest way of getting over that would be to have detachable signs. The posts could be left there, and all that is needed is to have a detachable signboard. Again, when I mentioned this point to the Automobile Association, I was told that local authorities object to this method on the ground that they have not the manpower to carry it out. What are we coming to if we cannot provide the manpower to do a job which would take any noble Lord twenty minutes to do: to go
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down one side of the High Street, collect the signs and come up the other side and put them up there. If local authorities say they cannot provide manpower for that sort of thing, then it seems to me that they should be made to do it.
I pass now to page 41. It seems to me that these signs which imply hours when one may or may not park—for instance, Monday to Friday, 11.30 a.m. to 6.30 p.m. and so on—are much too confusing. "No reversing into street" is another sign which, among others, seems to me to be completely unnecessary. On page 44 mention is made of two signs of which I cannot see the significance. The first one is, "250 yards ahead, no entry." What does one do? Does one go on for 250 yards and then turn round, or does one turn round at once? It does not imply whether the "No entry" is to the right or left, straight ahead or what. Then, "130 yards ahead, no right turn." There again why does one want to know that in advance? Surely the "No entry" sign at the particular point where one cannot go further is sufficient.
We then come to the direction signs. On the whole, they are abort as efficient as they could be. I have no grumbles against them except one that I have already mentioned to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, who is to reply to the debate. He tells me that I am not right, but I have often found that on approaching a major road one finds only the next town on the road indicated. For instance, on reaching A1, one sees some town to the right and some town to the left. If a driver has lost his bearings and wants to get to London, he may not know which way to turn. I feel that the ultimate destination of the road, as well as its immediate next point, should be indicated, at least on important roads. But apart from that, I do not think I have many grumbles about the direction signs.
I do not think there is much more I need say, except on what I think is one important point: that is, I cannot find anywhere in the Regulations any provision of how far in advance of a given object a sign is to be placed. I rather believe that that rests very much with local authorities. To my mind, however, the Ministry of Transport should have have an absolute say on these matters; local authorities should have the right to

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question, of course, but it seems to me that the final decision should rest with the Ministry of Transport. The only point of a warning sign is to warn one of something that cannot be seen. Generally, one can see the object itself long before one sees the sign. It seems to me, in view of the higher speeds on main roads today, that signs should be placed a great deal more in advance of the object than they are.
To what conclusions do we come from all this? I think the chief one is that there is much too much diversity; there is too little definition of signs indicating the severe or not severe circumstances, and there is a lot of unnecessary wordiness. I am not going to press for a Division, and to-morrow, of course, these Regulations become law. However, I should be grateful if the noble Lord who is to reply could give me some assurance that these Regulations are not going to be the be-all and end-all of reform in traffic sign regulations. I beg to move.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Traffic Signs Regulations, 1957 (S.I. 1957 No. 13), dated 7th January 1957, laid before the House under Standing Order No. 61 on 8th February 1957, be annulled.—(Lord Somers.)

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
3.37 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I rise, with the permission of the House, on the matter of the remaining Business for to-day, because I notice that the noble Marquess, the Leader of the House, is in his place. We, the Opposition, have an important Motion on the Paper in regard to which we were greatly indebted to the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, who made me a promise on March 5 that we should be able to have a debate on this subject. After a brief conversation with the Chief Whip, and also with the noble Marquess, we had Government time granted to us to-day, and the Minister of Power has arranged to be here to deal with the matter. While I have not a word of criticism to offer of the noble Lord who has just spoken, what is wrong with this arrangement is that the precedence of the Business has not been fair to
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the Opposition and does not fit in with the conversations we had on the matter. I am sure the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, would not think it is in accordance with the spirit of what he so kindly promised and arranged. Therefore, I think we have no option but to ask the House—I am giving the longest notice I can—to allow us to withdraw the Motion that has been put down to-day, and we must seek from the Government some other day, possibly of Government time, in which to deal with it.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I can assure the noble Viscount that we are sorry matters should have worked out this way. As he said, this is a Government day. The Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Somers, which is now being debated, is a Prayer, and since this is the last day on which the Prayer could be taken, the noble Lord's Motion had priority. I am sure we are all agreed, whatever view we may take about the Homicide Bill, that it is important to get it completed as soon as possible. Therefore, I think it was inevitable that the Motion of the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, should come third on the Order Paper. However, I had not anticipated that it would be quite so late as it has turned out to be before it was reached. I can only express my great regret, and say that we shall be glad to arrange another date, which I am sure would be better, in the circumstances, on so important a subject.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Marquess. I would only add that I hope he will give instructions that, in such a case as this, where he has gone out of his way to give us time for a debate, in arranging the Business for that day there might be some consultation with the Opposition.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not think anyone imagined that the noble Viscount's Motion would come on so late. I am sure that no one would wish the conclusion of the Homicide Bill to be delayed longer than is necessary. I should say that that was perhaps even more important than any other Motion which could be brought forward. Therefore, I am sure there will be no difference of view in any part of the

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House. We do our best to see that the Business of the House is properly arranged, and it is not often that difficulties of this kind occur.
VISCOUNT HALL: My Lords, in view of all the circumstances which have been explained, I do not intend to move my Motion to-day.
LORD REA: My Lords, I am sure that the arrangement to which we have come is satisfactory to all concerned. May I strike a warning note for the future? It might be that there were noble Lords who were anxious to speak on the Motion of the noble Viscount and who took the trouble to come to the House, only to find, at twenty minutes to four, that the Motion is postponed to another day. I do not think that that has happened in this case, but I would point out that, in cases of this sort, we must be careful that arrangements are made through the usual channels.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, in this particular case it is not the Government who are postponing the Motion.
LORD REA: My Lords, I fully appreciate what the noble Marquess has said and impute no discourtesy on his part that the Motion is now withdrawn.

TRAFFIC SIGNS REGULATIONS, 1957
3.42 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, we will resume the debate upon the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Somers, I am afraid that I, on behalf of the noble Lords on this side of the House, cannot join him in wishing to annul the Regulations. I do not think he himself desires that. I sense that the noble Lord has put this Motion down for the purpose of expressing some views he has about the various Regulations but has no idea of asking your Lordships to proceed to a Division on this, matter.
I agree with a great deal the noble Lord has said. In my view, the signs are multiplied far too much. They are wordy. They show, in some respects, a Victorian outlook on modern road conditions. I am not going through every
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one of them, but I will ask your Lordships to look at one set of these road signs which I think illustrates the lack of modern vision upon the requirements of road users, or even of the general public. I refer to page 47. Here we have signs that denote "Public Lavatories", "Public Urinals", "Public Conveniences", "Ladies", "Gentlemen", "Men" and "Women". I suppose they all relate to the same thing. I cannot understand the blatant vulgarity of it. It is funny in one sense, but it is tragic in another. Some time ago, when I was in Australia, and particularly in Melbourne, I never saw signs like that; I saw one standard sign, and it was called "Comfort Station". I thought that was very descriptive and in good taste. I think these signs are terrible. Surely we could use a little more imagination than to plaster our towns and our countryside with signs such as this.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Somers, in much of what he has said. I would have thought that these signs should have been submitted to a body like the Fine Art Society—not that I believe that the Society are very good in many respects, but I am certain they could have done something better than this. The noble Lord criticised the signs warning of "School" and "Children". I do not know what the figures shown are doing—playing ball or something like that. It could be a far more simple sign. Why have the word, "School" on the sign? Why not just the figure of the child? I drive six miles to the station through a housing estate, usually just at the time the children are going to school. I have been most impressed with two or three little toddlers of the "Lucy Atwell" type, with their pigtails rampart and their satchels on their back, toddling along to school. I always slow down at that particular point, because I think they make such a pretty sight. It would be far better to have a figure of a child like that without the word "School" underneath. It would attract attention, And why not have it in colour?
I could go on with many of these things. I agree that the authorities have had difficulties in trying to draw up a new sign code of international application, but J should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, whether it is necessary, on many of these pictorial signs, to have international agreement. Take the case

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that I have just stated of, "Comfort Stations". You will never get those places called the same, or the signs to be of the same size or the same design, in an international agreement. The same applies to the sign for school-children. I am very much concerned with this question, but not so much concerning the design of the signs. My criticism would be that in some cases the Ministry require two years' grace to install them. Two years is a very long time. The streets of our cities and towns are being painted with many signs and direction indications. Does the noble Lord not think that there should be something universal in their design?
There are unilateral parking signs on some of our narrow streets in country towns, and the one person who is allowed to break that rule is the driver of the van or the commercial vehicle which is loading or unloading on the side of the street on which no waiting is allowed upon that date. So that does away with all the benefit of unilateral "No Waiting" signs. I am conscious of the fact that, with the noble Lord's assistance, and with the assistance of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, we did something about this waiting in no-waiting areas in the Road Traffic Bill, before we had the "No Waiting" sign. But does not the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, agree that we have to go further to make any of this signposting in our cities really effective?
We have a simple and universal code for loading and unloading. I will not reiterate the arguments I put forward to the noble Lord and the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, upon the Road Traffic Bill, when I opposed the powers given to local authorities to make these regulations themselves. Some of these highways through our towns are really not the concern of the local authorities; they are national highways and through routes. I am not going into the old argument I raised on the City of Oxford, but I was in the City of Oxford yesterday morning at 12 o'clock, and right by Carfax on one side of the road was a 5-ton lorry and on the other side of the road within two yards of the traffic lights was a pantechnicon. It funnelled the traffic there down two lanes, and those two lanes could just squeeze through. A bus could just squeeze through with
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one inch to spare. What is the good of having "No Waiting" signs and unilateral parking signs when the local authorities, the Ministry of Transport and the Home Office allow these vehicles to act directly contrary to what we want them to do?
I should like to ask the noble Lord one other question. This is inspired by what I thought was an excellent idea printed in one of our Sunday newspapers, the Observer. We used to have a policy of two-carriageway roads. Then we had three-carriageway roads. Then we decided that three-carriageway roads were far too dangerous so we had four-carriageway roads. Now we are reverting in many cases to three-carriageway roads, and some of these three-carriageway roads can be highly dangerous unless they are properly signed. In my view, it is a most tragic state of affairs. I expect your Lordships will remember that on one of our great highways, the A.34, at the entrance to Southampton, there has just been built a new road which is a three-carriageway road. In my view, it is highly dangerous.
I should like to ask the noble Lord to consider seriously this planning. If he has not a copy of this paper, may I give him mine? I think that to make a three-carriageway road, by painting signs, a two-carriageway road one way and one carriageway the other, instead of allowing both sets of traffic to fight for the middle would be a very great help. Speaking on behalf of noble Lords on this side of the House, I do not oppose the passage of these Regulations, but I would ask the noble Lord and the authorities to give some serious consideration to the multiplicity of signs and traffic lights that are going up in this country.
One's attention to-day is so distracted from the main purpose of driving a motor vehicle and keeping one's eyes on the road that one has to look all over the place—up in the sky, right and left—and, with the present congestion of our traffic, many of the signs that are designed to save life and injury contribute more to accidents than carelessness on the part of the driver. If there is one person for whom I have great sympathy, it is the driver. As I get older, I drive on the roads less and less, principally, I suppose, because I have less tolerance and less patience; but one has to keep

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one's eyes to the left and the right, upon the roads, upon the signs and upon the signs of the driver in front. The multiplicity just makes bedlam and a highly dangerous condition when we are trying, in Regulations like these, to make the roads safer.
3.55 p.m.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I do not propose this afternoon to go into any great detail as the noble Lord who has moved this Prayer did. As a member of the Standing Joint Committee of the Royal Automobile Club, the Automobile Association and the Royal Scottish Automobile Club, I merely want to say what our opinions are in the matter, in principle. As your Lordships know, draft Regulations of this kind come before the motoring organisations for their comment. Each individual constituent of the Standing Joint Committee discusses them, and then they go into consultation together. This practice was followed and the motoring organisations came to the conclusion that the time had come for a definite step to be taken in adopting the European system of using diagrammatic and pictorial representations.
The Ministry, however, pointed out that there was a snag in this, in that the signs recommended by the 1949 Geneva Conference, which very much followed the European system, had been superseded, as it were, in 1952 by alternative proposals put forward by the United Nations Economic and Social Council. It was not possible at that time to get worldwide approval in this matter. That may be desirable in the long run because people are driving more and more in different countries and it is advantageous if the signing is the same throughout the civilised world.
If your Lordships look at this document, you will see it very largely confirms the old signs, with certain alterations. At least five points are particularly welcomed by the motoring organisations. I can give them in this order: first, the authority for larger traffic signs; secondly, requirements for the illumination of certain traffic signs and the incorporation of reflecting material—and, in particular, I should mention the "Halt" signs; thirdly, additional signs to indicate parking places; fourthly, pictorial, signs for schools and children, and, fifthly, "Bend" signs which indicate the direction of the bend.
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I think it would be fair to say that the new Regulations incorporate certain improvements and, therefore, I myself and certainly the motoring organisations would not like to see them annulled. That would be a backward step. But we sincerely ask the Minister to do his best to bring forward the date when a real improvement is made in the signs. I am certain that he motoring organisations, who represent the people who are using the signs, should be really brought into consultation. I think the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said that more imagination should be used in certain directions. I am not certain that it might not be better if there were less imagination used and we got down to the real facts of the case. I hope that the Ministry will pursue this matter, and that, if it is not possible to get world-wide agreement within a very reasonable space of time, we shall extend the pictorial sign.
4.0 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I agree with much of what the mover of this Motion has said about signs. I have estimated that there are about twenty-four signs illustrated here which are really quite redundant. I submit that the fewer signs that the ordinary driver of a vehicle on the highway has to deal with the better will it be, and the more likely will it be that those signs will be observed and be of real value.
I think that page 47 of this document is perfectly stupid. I can hardly believe that the Government can seriously put forward such a proposition. I should like to ask my noble friend who is to reply to this debate to turn his attention to page 47. It is not necessary to have all that outfit. It is not going to affect public safety and all the rest of it. With the noble Lord, Lord Waleran, I am strongly in favour of the signs being obvious to a person driving along the road. One should not have to think twice as to whether one has seen a sign; it should strike one in the eye, as it were, and one should be prepared to take the necessary action.
On the whole I think that there is perhaps more good than bad in these Regulations if only the Minister can be persuaded to go through the whole thing with an effective blue pencil and scratch out those signs which are really

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redundant. I do not want to repeat all the arguments that have been advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Somers, and the noble Lord, Lord Waleran, but I should just like to say that as an ordinary humble individual I agree with those arguments. I would go through pages 38 and 47 with a fine comb. Surely it is not necessary to have two "Children" signs. One sign such as one finds on the Continent is enough. Let us have our signs in line with those found on the Continent. Do not let us be too much led up the garden path by the suggestion that we in Europe should make our signs conform to those of the United States. Traffic conditions in America are quite different from those here, and I suggest that we should be satisfied if the signs in use here conform to those in use on the Continent. I do not see why we should try to go further than that.
4.4 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I wish to raise only two points on these Regulations. The first, on which I agree with so many noble Lords who have spoken, on both sides of the House, concerns the mere multiplicity of signs. The Ministry of Transport seem determined sometimes to put up signs merely for the sake of multiplicity. I cannot remember the exact wording of one you will find scattered about Slough at the moment, from whatever point you approach it. It runs, I think, as follows, "Caution. Slough—Safety Town". My Lords, whatever may be meant by "Slough—Safety Town", I can scarcely believe that it renders it more dangerous. Why the fact that Slough is a safety town should render it necessary to warn all motorists of some special danger defeats me! I should like to know from the noble Lord who is going to reply, what is the purpose of these signs, and, if he knows it, how much public expenditure they have involved. I noticed another sign the other day in the country which said, if I remember aright, "Road ahead may be muddy". I think that, if we go on at this pace, by next year we shall have a sign all over the country, saying, "If it rains, it may be wet". I hope that my warning may be in time to stop this development.
I now come to the question of the particular signs that are the subject of the
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debate on this Prayer. Here I would welcome a remark of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth—though I think that, by a slip, he misnamed the body when he spoke about the "Fine Art Society", as the people who might be consulted. I think the people who might well have been consulted are the Council of Industrial Design, who have been much concerned with the question of street furniture and are the body set up and financed by the Government themselves, a body whose advice is really worth both obtaining and generally following. I should like to read, because I think the House ought to have it before them, a paragraph of the last Report of the Royal Fine Art Commission. Paragraph 72 reads as follows:
"Like the Council,"—
that is, the Council of Industrial Design—
"it"—
that is, the Royal Fine Art Commission—
"is also interested in the design of the new Traffic Signs adopted by the Ministry of Transport. It is a matter for regret that draft designs should have been prepared by a committee on which those interested in the general appearance of street furniture were not represented. The present designs are below the standard that the public is entitled to expect in a matter of this importance, and indeed below that commonly seen on the Continent. The Commission had hoped that the details would be reconsidered before final approval was given to them."
My Lords, those are the considered words of the Royal Fine Art Commission. It is most puzzling to many of us in this House that the Government should set up two such bodies as the Council of Industrial Design and the Royal Fine Art Commission, and should either not consult them at all or, if they do consult them, invariably ignore their advice.
To deal with the specific Regulations now before us, I believe it is a fact that no expert typographer has been employed at all. I think it is quite possible that some advertising agent or other may have been consulted, but no expert typographer has been employed. That is of some importance, because there are in these Regulations elaborate provisions about the size of letters but, I think I am right in saying, none at all about their spacing. Anybody who knows anything at all about typography knows that, when you are considering lettering, the question of spacing is as important as that of size.

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Let me mention two other matters or errors which I think follow from this fact. The first is the confusion caused where lettering of different sizes is combined in a single sign. I wonder whether noble Lords who have the Regulations before them would look at page 37 and would compare sign 306 with sign 307. If they look at sign 306 they will see a quite clear sign "No right turn"—all the lettering of uniform size. But sign 307 has an enormous "No" and then an almost invisible "right turn". I do not believe that any expert typographer would for one moment have approved sign 307 with these mixtures of size. They lead to quite unnecessary confusion of the person whom it is intended to warn.
Probably the pictorial signs are among the worst of the new signs. I agree with many other noble Lords that there is a great deal to be said for the Continental system in which you have a good symbol and let it speak for itself. For the mixture of symbol and lettering there is very little to be said. I think the most comic example is No. 153, which your Lordships will find on page 27. There we see a pictorial—indeed, I believe, a photographic—representation of a cow. I cannot conceive that anybody who has ever seen a cow could mistake the animal for anything else. But, by way of explanation for the motorist who has never seen a cow, there is written underneath in bold lettering the word "Cattle." I have consulted a former Minister of Agriculture, who assures me that it would be generally recognised that what is represented is a cow; and the only suggestion I have had from my noble friends is that probably, if it were not for the word "Cattle", a motorist would not be prepared to meet a bull. It is really quite absurd that the Ministry should have so much doubt of their own pictorial representation that they must give an explanation of what is represented.
I do not wish to repeat any of the criticism which has already been made, but I do beg, in the interests both of economy and of public safety, that the Ministry of Transport should rid themselves of the idea that any useful object is served by unnecessary multiplication of signs. And, secondly, I beg Her Majesty's Government to say to the Ministry of Transport, as I hope they have already said to other Government Departments,
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that where questions of design are involved which concern the convenience and amenities of the public, they should, as a matter of course, consult such bodies as the Council of Industrial Design, which is certainly the appropriate body where street furniture is concerned, or the Royal Fine Art Commission. To set up and finance public bodies of this kind and then ignore them is demonstratively contrary to the public interest and also quite foolish.
4.13 p.m.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, I should like to raise one particular point on these Regulations, but before doing so I would say how much I agree with my noble friend Lord Somers when he urged that it should be made clear to users of the road, beyond all doubt, whether they have the right of way at a road junction or whether they have not. I have felt for many years that one of the major causes of road accidents is the uncertainty and doubt which faces road users, particularly motorists, owing to the fact that they are not at all clear, and are not told in clear terms whether or not they have the right of way. That was done many years ago with regard to traffic on the sea, and I believe that I am right in saying that it has also been done with regard to air traffic; but it has still not been done with motor traffic. I do not know why. I have in mind a particular case which came into the courts the other day, and which must be a very common kind of case. Two motor cars on right-angled courses collided at a cross roads in the country where there was no sign of any description indicating the existence of a road junction or crossroads, still less saying which road had priority over the other.
The particular point which I rose to make concerns "Halt" signs. If I am right, the coming into force of these Regulations will mean that a number of existing road signs which have not been altered to comply with the Regulations will be invalid. It may be said at once—and I am sure it will be said by Her Majesty's Government—that it is the duty of local authorities to see that signs are altered so that they are valid; and that I do not dispute. But I should like to ask whether it is generally realised that, until they are altered the signs will be invalid, and that no successful

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prosecution can therefore be initiated under them. I am told that in one large town in England, far from the largest, there are no fewer than seventeen "Halt" signs which, on the passing of these Regulations, will become invalid and, therefore, of no use; and it may be that in other towns there are corresponding numbers.
I thought it right to draw attention to this fact and to ask whether the extension of time which was granted in the year 1950, when I believe the existing Regulations came into force, could not be further extended. Between 1950 and 1957, it has been lawful, I believe, for the old "Halt" sign, with the triangle pointing upwards, to be in force and valid. Under these Regulations that will no longer be so, and all "Halt" signs with the triangle pointing upwards will be not only out of date but invalid. Surely we could extend that period of time for some few years longer so as to avoid making those signs invalid or the cost of correcting them. I wish to stress that point, which has been drawn to my attention, because I believe that it is one of some significance.
4.18 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, I was comforted to hear my noble friend Lord Somers tell your Lordships that he does not intend to press this Motion to a Division, because that would indeed have been unfortunate. If these Regulations were not to come into force, we should have worse chaos on our roads, which at the moment are not wholly free from chaos. These Regulations, which have been discussed in some considerable detail this afternoon, are the fruit of the work of many years, and the need for them has been accentuated by the passage of the Road Traffic Act, 1956, which was initiated in this House and which we debated in so much detail last year. The draft was circulated to about fifty organisations, representing all possible interests concerned, and over 200 suggestions were considered. Since my noble friend Lord Conesford has raised this point, I may say that I understand that both the Royal Fine Art Commission and the Council of Industrial Design were, in fact, consulted, though I am afraid that agreement
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was not reached with them on quite a considerable number of points; and an expert typographer was consulted concerning the construction of the letters and spacing on pages 74 and 75 in the Regulations.
These new Regulations are not perfect, of course, and this afternoon your Lordships have naturally drawn attention to the ones which you do not like, so I can only take it that the others meet with your Lordships' approval, and I am happy to see that apparently a very large number do so. I cannot possibly answer this afternoon in detail all the points which your Lordships have raised, but I will make this promise: that all your Lordships' suggestions will be carefully considered. This draft is not the last word on road signs and regulations. They will have to be amended from time to time to meet changing circumstances, brought up to date and modified as the occasion demands. The points raised by your Lordships will be carefully looked at by experts, and if the points are valid they will certainly be considered in any further amendments.
One thing which has come out of our debate this afternoon, and on which there is no disagreement, is that the standard of signposting and direction signs generally in this country has improved considerably. Indeed there was room for improvement. That improvement is continued in these Regulations. Higher standards are laid down for clarity, lettering and visibility. I draw your Lordships' attention particularly to diagram 448 and the larger lettering in 430. I was glad to hear that this met with your Lordships' approval. I agree with those of your Lordships who have said that, though our direction signs have improved, they are still not so good as some we see on the Continent. Certainly they are not so good as some one sees in France, which I think is the country most of us know best, and where the signs are, I think, outstanding. I myself drove from London to the South of France last summer. It was a road which I had not travelled before, but I got lost only once in the the course of the whole journey, and that was at the top of the Old Kent Road.
I would, however, remind your Lordships that our signs are much older than the Continental ones. As I have said,

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there have been considerable improvements of late, and I think your Lord-ships, like myself, will have been impressed with the new system of "through London" signs which are now going up. They have met with widespread approval, and they are a great help to the traveller who is a stranger to London and who is trying to find his way around it. But these signs, I regret to say, are very expensive. They may cost as much as £50 each, and they cannot all be put up at once. Some of your Lordships have talked about the multiplicity of signs. I would point out that very few signs will be changed. There is no reason to change a large number of the existing signs which are still serving their purpose quite adequately. I have referred to the additional "through London" system of signs which we hope will spread and will be adopted by more cities in the country.
There is one matter to which I would draw attention. The Ministry of Transport have hitherto lacked powers to require the erection of these traffic signs. To give one obvious example in London: you will find that, if you get as far on your journey through London as Stepney, you are then likely immediately to get lost, because the signs peter out when you get to that borough. The highway authority there has refused to bear any part of the cost of the signs. It would seem that the good citizens of Stepney subscribe very closely to the lesson of Matthew, Chapter VIII, Verse 39:
"An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign and there shall no sign be given to it."
Highway authorities can now be directed to participate in this scheme. That is clearly an improvement. This scheme of sign-posting in London alone—the through-routes with a yellow background, and the local ones with a blue background—will cost nearly £150,000.
I agree with what has been said about the need for a high standard of signposting from all points of view—from the points of view of the elimination of confusion and the reduction of the risk of accidents. It is, however, part of our system, and has been for some time, that no right of way should be indicated: that nothing should be put up to tell you that it is your road. That has been part of the policy for some time. Signs can be put up bearing the words "Halt",
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"Slow", and "Yield" on the minor road, but the road user is not actually told when it is his road. Everybody must therefore keep a look-out.
I agree also with those noble Lords who have said that there are too many signs. There are, indeed, far too many. There is too much confusion because of advertisements and other pictorial signs. Hammersmith Broadway, for example, is a clutter of signs, and it confuses rather than instructs. In one roundabout near London there are five different direction signs, including the rare "Port" sign, in this case leading to Southampton. Highway authorities have power to remove unofficial signs, and they do try to clear up the confusion. Some have done it very well. I wish that more would show zeal in this matter. Of course the Ministry have the right to compel them to do so, in the last resort, but naturally one does not want to use compulsion unless it becomes really necessary, There has been a great deal of improvement at Peterborough and Nottingham. I particularly draw attention to those two cities. They have made great improvements, and their example is being followed in Manchester, Grimsby, Worcester and two or three other places. Perhaps one might express the hope that Birmingham will also follow this good example. At present the Birmingham city fathers seem intent on getting you into the city and never letting you out again.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Somers upon the need for simplicity and clarity, but I think that, in this connection, there is a misunderstanding concerning page 47—those vexed signs which have displeased Lord Lucas of Chilworth. Those signs are simply signs which local authorities are permitted to put up or retain. If we were to do away with all those shown on page 47, and substitute one only, it would be expensive. We hope, in due course, to get more uniformity, but we cannot suddenly do away with all the existing signs which are tolerably clear and serve their purpose. To do so would be very expensive.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: May I ask the noble Lord if it is any more costly to call a woman a lady than simply to call her a woman?
LORD MANCROFT: Of course it is not. What we want to do is to make certain that the new signs that are put up are as uniform as possible, and we wish to allow for as little variety as possible. We allow the old ones to remain only where they are perfectly clear and give a straightforward indication of what is intended. The noble Lord, Lord Conesford, especially drew attention to the question of the cow, and sign 153. That cow has caused more trouble than the noble Lord knows. The animal is, I am informed, a South Devon cow. When this was first produced, we received communications from indignant people in Hereford, pointing out that not only was it a South Devon cow but that it was a pretty poorly bred cow at that. They wanted to know why they could not have a Hereford beast in Herefordshire. If we agreed to that, people in Ayrshire, Lincoln, Aberdeen, Jersey, Guernsey and Alderney and the Highlands might well be likely to ask for variations of their own.
My Lords, there are many other details connected with these Regulations into which I should like to go if time permitted, but it does not. We are, for instance, preparing a code of practice for marking and lighting road works. That, I think, has been a considerable source of trouble in the past. Our aim is to get something which will ensure safety and uniformity. Contractors must not only provide a uniform system of signals but they must have to work them a man who has a rough understanding of what he is doing and what traffic conditions are in the area.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The noble Lord is on a very important point here, and I am grateful to him for mentioning this. Will he consider the advisability of not allowing public works contractors to use automatic lighting signals when they want to have one-way traffic on the road, because often those concerned have no experience of the volume of the traffic with which they have to deal?
LORD MANCROFT: I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, about the importance of this matter. Too often the operation of these signs is put in the hands of "Charlie," because he is not bright enough to make the tea.
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The main criticism, however, which has been levelled against our whole system is that we have not adopted the Continental protocol which is used throughout Europe. Why have we not followed the Continental system, which has many admirable points and which many think is preferable to ours? The trouble is that ours has been in existence much longer. The Continental system did not have final legal authority until about 1949. We were hoping that there would be agreement throughout the world on a world system, and we were prepared to make changes had that agreement come about. Unfortunately, the Americans would not come into the world system, and having abandoned all hope of a world system and as there were going to be two systems anyhow, we decided to stick to our own rather than to adopt the Continental system. We should have liked to adopt the Continental system but it would have cost a great deal of money and taken a lot of time to make the necessary alterations. It might cost as much as £15 million; therefore, as I have said, we have decided against change. Undoubtedly there are many admirable features in the Continental system.
What we are now trying to do is, with typical British liking for compromise, to get the best of both worlds. We are gradually incorporating their good points in our system, particularly with regard to legibility and clarity of lettering. The Continental system is, however, not altogether suitable for this country. It is much more suitable for a large Continental area where many languages are spoken, and conditions generally are very different from those in this country. But while I do not deny that the Continental system has excellent points, I do feel that it is less flexible than ours, and not so adaptable in some respects. Our system undoubtedly has its faults but they are being steadily eliminated. It does not really cause confusion to the degree that some people imagine to foreigners who come to this country. It gives them a quiet laugh now and again, but it does not cause many accidents.
I think that, on the whole, the decision we have taken in not changing to the Continental system but incorporating it where we can is a sound one. It is a difficult matter to decide, because there is so much to be said for both

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sides. We are, of course, experimenting with other Continental schemes. There is the double white line for dangerous roads, which is now being experimented with down the Portsmouth Road and which has been a great success on the Continent and in America. We are certainly going to look at the "Onno" scheme which was mentioned in the Observer last Sunday. There has been much improvement in the standard of illumination, which is now compulsory for some signs. Investigations have been carried out on the best methods of illumination and on reflecting materials, including the American Sectchlite, now being manufactured here. These and other experiments are going on. My noble friend Lord Conesford made fun of Slough. Many people have done that in the past and no doubt many will do it in the future. The reason that motorists are warned to go carefully through Slough is that it is a safety area which contains many new signs the motorist does not expect to find. There are experimental signs and schemes and all sorts of new terrors to motorists, including, perhaps, the possibility of finding Lord Conesford driving towards you.
I have twenty or thirty more points still unanswered, but I do not propose to enter into them at this moment. I promise again that I will look carefully at all the suggestions which have been put forward, and when further regulations are being framed they will be considered by the Department, which keeps them constantly under review. These Regulations are not free from blemish—I do not pretend that they are—but the more fact that your Lordships have tended to concentrate on those which can be criticised only shows how admirable are the remaining ones. When these Regulations pass into law to-morrow I hope that all motorists will appreciate the further clarity, safety and help they provide on the Queen's Highway.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, first of all, I should like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. Some very interesting points have been raised and I am glad to see that with most of my chief points most noble Lords were in agreement. I am particularly grateful to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, that this is not
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the last of our reforms and that we may hope to consider further reforms before long. I cannot say that I agree altogether with what he regarded as our tradition of not implying who had the right of way. I think that uncertainty on that point makes motorists do uncertain things and that not being absolutely certain whether one has the right of way or not is a great source of accidents. But no doubt that point will be considered when we have our next reforms. I again thank noble Lords and beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

HOMICIDE, BILL
4.34 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, your Lordships may rest assured that in rising to move the Third Reading of the Homicide Bill I shall not travel again over the ground that has been covered so often. May I summarise the position thus? Over the first part of the Bill, there is broad general agreement that it will work a welcome change in the criminal law. Over the other part, there are many differences of opinion and these differences are likely to persist. I have frequently described this Bill as a compromise, for that is what it is, but I think that this can be said: it is an attempt to find a via media of which most of us can say that, even if it does not go exactly where we want it to lead, it leads in the right direction. Both the principles on which the Bill is founded and the details have been canvassed so firmly in your Lordships' House that I think that if I were to do it again, it would be tedious repetition. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will not think it discourteous in me if I suggest that I move the Third Reading of the Bill now and give those noble Lords who wish to say anything further on this topic an opportunity of bringing out the points in their minds, after which I shall have the greatest pleasure in seeking to reply to them. In the hope that that course commends itself to your Lordships, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3ª.—(The Lord Chancellor).
4.36 p.m.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: My Lords, I do not rise to oppose the Third Reading of the Bill or its passage into law, but equally I do not rise to support the Bill. I think that I can best express my attitude towards it in the well-known phrase of "praising it with faint damns". The opponents of abolition have relied in the past on four main arguments. The first was that if a man had committed the vile crime of murder, he deserved to "swing" for it. I think that few people to-day would admit that that was the main objection they had to the abolition of capital punishment. The second argument was that human life was so sacred that the punishment for taking it ought to be of a unique kind, and that kind must be death. It always seemed to me a rather peculiar evidence of this belief in the sacredness of human life that the State should break the very principle for which it was supposed to stand. I think that few people take that line at the present time.
The third ground for opposing the abolition of capital punishment was that it was alleged that murderers were such incorrigible offenders that if they were not put to death the imprisonment which must be the substitute for it must be genuinely a life imprisonment. The whole experience of this country and in Europe, where a certain number of murderers have been reprieved and released from prison after serving a sentence, not of life, has been to contradict that argument. It has been practically unknown for released murderers to do a second murder, with very rare exceptions.
The fourth reason which has been put forward is that as murder is a particularly foul crime, as we all admit, it is essential to have a real deterrent, and that the only deterrent which is unique and capable of having the desired effect is to take away the murderer's life and so protect the public. It is on this principle alone—and I do not think that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor would disagree with this statement—that the present Bill proceeds to compromise. It distinguishes between two kinds of murder, one only of which is in future to be punishable by death. It does not make any pretence that the line of demarcation is drawn so as to mark the degree of
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heinousness of a murder, or even the degree of brutal premeditation.
For this reason, a large body of public opinion is mystified as to the principles of the Bill and considers the Bill to be illogical. But the promoters of the Bill have selected certain specified types of murder with regard to which they think that the retention of capital punishment will provide a real deterent: for instance, with regard to carrying lethal weapons to commit a burglary, for attacks on the police, for attacks on warders and other crimes. However, I do not think that even the promoters of the Bill can be very happy or believe that it is a compromise which is at the same time logical in all respects.
Your Lordships know quite well that in this matter of the death penalty I am a complete abolitionist. But I have never said—and I would not say it, because it would not be true—that in no conceivable circumstances could the death penalty be a deterrent. What I have said is that the few people who may be deterred from committing a murder by the fear of capital punishment are outnumbered by those who are stimulated to commit even this appalling crime by the glamour which attaches to the whole business of the gallows and the notoriety connected with any form of capital punishment. That may seem an absurd statement, but I would draw the attention of your Lordships to two facts which occur in ordinary life and which show that the threat and fear of death, so far from deterring people, to some extent stimulates them to face the danger. The two illustrations that I give are big game hunting and mountaineering. I am convinced that the possibility of untoward results happening to the person concerned is part of the stimulus and excitement of engaging in both of these activities. If you had a hill that was easy to climb and there was no fear of anybody falling from the rocks, then I do not think you would get half as many people to climb it as you get engaging in mountaineering owing to the very possibility that an accident may happen. Human beings are very curious, and I am convinced that the glamour connected with capital punishment is one of the factors which leads to a continuance of murders.
Therefore, I am sorry that the provisions of this Bill have not done away with

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what I call the whole beastly business of the hangman or any other form of execution I should have regarded that as a great step forward in the public life of this country. I regret that this Bill attempts to form a compromise, instead of having that, as I consider, most salutary effect. In spite of that view of mine regretting the nature of this Bill, I have lived a very long life and I am fully aware that the British people, as a whole, are strong supporters of compromise; and they are strong believers in taking one step forward and never going a great way at one time. In some respects, I admire the British people for their determination in both of these matters, and I have often supported them in that action.
When it comes to this particular Bill, however, the question arises whether this compromise, such as it is, is a good one, and whether it is a genuine step forward or not. Personally, I do not consider that it is a particularly good compromise, or that it is a particularly good step forward. But apparently the Government do; and, what is more, the Government believe that public opinion generally will regard this as a satisfactory compromise and a satisfactory step forward. It is true that this Bill has gone through the other place, and it is likely to go through your Lordships' House. In view of those facts, I will not be the one to stop it from going through into law. It may not prove a very good Bill; it certainly is not a very logical Bill; but if it pleases public opinion in this country, as the Government profess it does, then I shall certainly not stand in its way.
4.45 p.m.
VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOOD: My Lords, the Government must look with a certain measure of satisfaction at these empty Benches this afternoon. They can compare the fact that upon the Third Reading of a very controversial Bill, admittedly filled with a number of anomalies, instead of a heated House of 335 Peers, as there were on the Second Reading of the Bill that I introduced in July, there is now, to judge from the attendance this afternoon, very little interest in the Bill at all. Is this the result, as the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor suggested, of the Government having found a via media that satisfies almost everyone? Or is it the result, as I ventured, perhaps rather impertinently, to
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suggest a week ago of some clever evasive action by the present Minister? I do not wish to give the answer to-day; the answer will be given by what actually happens when the Bill comes into operation.
I should like to say, first of all, how sincerely I have regretted finding myself month after month, and indeed, year after year, in disagreement with the noble Marquess the Leader of the House, who in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred I regard as a statesman possessed of the best possible judgment. Let me say, too (I hope he will allow me to pay him a humble tribute), that I was very much impressed by the patience and knowledge with which the Lord Chancellor defended the other day what I personally believed to be an almost indefensible Bill. No one could have done it better; no one could have made a better case for the Bill to which we are asked to give a Third Reading this afternoon.
Much now will depend upon the way in which the Bill is administered. It will depend a great deal upon the administration of the present Home Secretary and his successors. Fortunately, we have to-day a Home Secretary who is obviously intensely interested in penal questions. In the last few weeks he has made two remarkable speeches, first, when he was in charge of the Bill after he had become Home Secretary, in which he sketched the complexities of all the mental questions connected with crime. He said that here was a field almost uncharted upon which we were just beginning to work. The second speech was the speech he made the other day upon prison administration. There again, he showed that he was in full possession of some of the issues that concern crime much more even than this or that type of punishment.
He spoke of a research programme into questions of this kind. Let me remind noble Lords that in the Criminal Justice Act, 1948, and in the proposals that I originally made upon which the Bill was founded, there was a provision specifically inserted implying much greater facilities than there had been before for research into questions such as these with which I am dealing. Unfortunately, this research clause has been almost ignored. I am delighted to think, after what the Home Secretary has said,

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that he is now going to put life into it, and that we are going to see an effective inquiry into all these mental questions to which he rightly attaches so much importance. Let me suggest to him that the first branch of these questions that he should ask the researchers to consider is the branch that concerns the mentality of murderers. I believe that the result of any such inquiry will be to show that in an almost insignificant number of cases the death penalty has any effect at all. I greatly hope that he will at once set in operation this urgently required inquiry into this particular branch of the subject.
In the meanwhile, I hope most sincerely that he will hold his hand in cases that come before him, and, at least until the research which I have mentioned is completed, will continue to give reprieves to the classes of murderers who are still liable to the death penalty under the Bill. I know that the Lord Chief Justice believes that if the Home Secretary adopted a line of this kind he would be setting up the dispensatory power of the Crown against the Statute Law. I do not believe that that criticism can be justified by history. Let me give noble Lords two cases. Let me give, first, the case of the attitude of successive Governments towards infanticide. The death penalty for infanticide has never been inflicted since 1849, yet it was only in 1922 that it was abolished by Statute. For all those forty or fifty years the Home Secretary of the day reprieved every case of infanticide in the teeth of the statutory law. Let me give another example—and the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, will remember it well—the case of murderers under eighteen years of age. No murderer under eighteen has been executed since 1887, yet it was only in the Children Acts of 1908 and 1933 that these reprieves were authorised by Statute. I hope, therefore, that the Home Secretary will not be deflected from the line that I have suggested by any of the comments that have been made during our debates upon this subject by the Lord Chief Justice.
I ask him further to consider very carefully what has happened in Belgium. Belgium, in some ways, is a country not unlike this country—an industrial country, mainly urban, very thickly populated; the kind of community in which it might be expected that murders would
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be more common than they would be in a rural area. Since 1863 there has not been a single execution in Belgium, although the Statute Law has never been altered. At the end of the last war, there was a great agitation to start executions again in Belgium. In much the same way as in this country, there was an exceptional outbreak of robbery with violence. There was a particularly bad case of a gang murder, and a strong demand that the power that had not been exercised for eighty years should be brought into operation again. The Minister of Justice, who was Emil Vandervelde, opposed the demand. The King signed a reprieve, and it is interesting to note that, following that incident, robbery with violence and murder steadily started to decrease. Let the Home Secretary look carefully into this Belgian precedent, and let him, as I say, continue to give reprieves, particularly after the last eighteen months have shown that they have had no significant effect upon the number of murders. Let him on no account put himself in the position of being, as we believe, a great penal reformer but at the same time being the Home Secretary who, after eighteen months of reprieves, revives these horrible executions.
5.0 p.m.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, I had not intended to detain your Lordships in this matter, but the speech which has been made by the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, is of such an important character that I should like to say a few words with reference to it. I, too, should have preferred that the whole death penalty had been abolished. Like the noble Viscount, I am glad indeed that we have gone so far along that road, but I should be glad to think that the Home Secretary would be able to take the advice which the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, has tendered to him. I appreciate the difficulty and the difference that there is between taking that course, in face of the passage now of this new Bill, and the precedents which he gave where the law was old and apparently, by public consent, out of harmony with current opinion. Therefore, these precedents are not quite what they seem to be.
That brings me to this point which seems to me the great weakness in this

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Bill: that is, that murder by shooting is a capital offence, no matter what the circumstances may be. So, unless the Home Secretary takes the view which the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, has advanced, we may find that we have two murders. One is the kind which is among the most horrible forms of murder, the premeditated, slow poisoning of an unsuspecting person, which is not a capital offence. The other is sudden shooting, under great stress of emotion (we had a case not very long ago of a woman in that position) because of an intolerable sense of wrong. That, in all circumstances, is a capital offence. That would seem to me the major defect in this Bill, apart from the fact that it does not abolish the death penalty altogether. I hope sincerely that, if the Home Secretary felt, in the circumstances of the new law, passed without dissent by both Houses of Parliament, unable fully to accept the advice and the views which the noble Viscount. Lord Templewood, has given, he would at least be able to judge the circumstances and the mental condition of a person guilty of certain murder by shooting, such as the one to whom I have referred, before feeling automatically bound not to recommend a reprieve.
5.3 p.m.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, I should like to say in a few words, because I did not have an opportunity of doing so on Second Reading, why I support this Bill. In that respect I, like the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, a confirmed abolitionist as regards the capital penalty, go further than he does and adopt not an attitude of neutrality, as he would, but an attitude of support for this Bill. Indeed, it seems to me that, if we approach this Bill from a logical viewpoint—which, of course, we do not—it is the abolitionists who ought to be loud in their support of the Bill and the retentionists who ought to be speaking with equal vehemence against it. I am surprised, if I may say so, not to find my noble friends Lord Teviot and the noble Lord who sits beside me now, Lord Ailwyn, stoutly opposing the passage of this Bill. It will be their speeches, if I mistake not, which will be quoted in a hundred years' time as an example of the extremes to which people could go in the dark days of the 1950s. But yet I
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find them silent upon this Bill. That, indeed, I find surprising.
The reason why I support this Bill is simply that if it is passed into law, it will be, from my point of view, improving the position because it will reduce the number of cases in which the death sentence is passed. To me it is as simple as that. I would only add that I confidently expect that it will be only a very short time before there will be complete abolition of the death penalty. I concede at once that the example which I now mention has not very great value, because it covers such a very short time; but it is a fact, I believe, that since it became known that the death penalty was not being put into operation—that is, about eighteen months ago—the number of murders in this country has not increased. That is what we always said would happen, and it is contrary to what the retentionists said would happen. I admit that we can place little value upon that figure. On the other hand, I submit that it does not help the retentionists in the slightest degree, because it does not bear out the prophecy which they always make—namely, that, when the death penalty is suspended, the number of murders will increase. So once again, for what they are worth, the figures are on our side. I just wanted to say why those of us who are of the confirmed opinion that the right thing to do is to abolish the death penalty altogether, not only can justify our support of this Bill but indeed, in my view, ought not to do anything else.
5.6 p.m.
LORD HADEN-GUEST: My Lords, I merely desire to say that, as one who supported the continuation of the death penalty when the Bill was brought in originally, I still remain of the same opinion. But I am glad to note that the present provisions limit the number of the crimes in which the death penalty can be inflicted. I agree with what has been said by the noble Lord who has just spoken: that what we really need is a great deal more research No one so far this evening has mentioned the question whether there are any particular varieties in human development which make certain people actual criminals. Some of them really are an inferior brand of human being—I do not think there is very much doubt about that: they are

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deformed. In some of those cases, if it can be done properly, as it will certainly be done under this Bill, it is a very proper thing to get rid of those people and to prevent them from having any more children. That is an extremely useful thing.
In the short debate that we have had to-day—and this is no occasion for a long debate—nobody has mentioned the question of heredity; nobody has mentioned the question of whether there are certain grades of development, especially of mental and moral development, in human individuals. I think that it is desirable, as I said before in a previous debate, that we should have the death penalty, which is one of the things which will hold in restraint people who are inclined to take refuge in murder, as it were, when they want to achieve a limited object of their own. I do not think I am any more brutal than other people, but I happen to have had a long medical training and have seen medical people in many aspects in many countries—in fact, in most countries—in a very large proportion of the habitable world, and I have not the slightest doubt that there are very great differences between one kind of individual and another kind of individual: they stand at altogether different levels of evolution and development. I hope that the day may come when our civilisation is sufficiently well developed to prevent such things happening. I hope that it will be possible for us to do away with punishment by death for murder simply because there will not be any more murders. I am glad to see that there is likely to be a decline. At the present time, there is not a decline in the number of murders. There are more murders now than were taking place annually at the time when the debates on this matter were originally held in another place and, subsequently, in this House.
I felt that I could not sit here and fail to express my opinion, not because I think I am more bloody minded than other people but, perhaps, because I have seen a great deal of bloody mindedness during my experiences in three wars and as a doctor in many "slummy" parts of the world, and not only in London. There are at present in the world certain people, born in bad conditions, who are
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definitely a danger and who, in certain circumstances, should, if they commit crime, suffer the death penalty.
5.12 p.m.
LORD AILWYN: My Lords, I came quite unprepared to speak this evening and I am not very good at speeches "off the cuff", but my noble friend beside me has challenged me, and I feel that a few words in reply are required in common civility. Your Lordships may remember that I spoke strongly against the Silverman Bill. I expressed myself as not only a retentionist but as an extentionist. I considered that people who were guilty of some of the most fearful crimes of all—these terrible, savage assaults on old people and on children—were no longer fit to live in this world. I am unrepentant; I still hold those views. But that does not mean to say that I do not realise that one is in a considerable minority in this matter. I think that this Bill, in principle, is a compromise—it is a compromise Bill, as the noble and learned Viscount said—and is probably the nearest thing to meeting the general approval of the community at large at the present time. I thought very sincerely as to whether I should speak on Second Reading of the Bill. On the whole, I decided against it. It may be illogical, but I do not think these matters can be decided by logic. I have these opinions; I hold them; and I certainly do not oppose the passing of this Bill.
5.13 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am grateful to all your Lordships who have spoken for the contributions that you have made at this terminal stage of a difficult piece of work. I am sure your Lordships would not want me to go over the answers which I made at some length last July to the general arguments that have been advanced to-day. The noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, in the course of a modest, moderate and reasonable speech, said that he did not think that the death penalty was a deterrent of such value as to justify its existence. After many years, in many capacities, of considering the matter, I am firmly of the belief that it is an indispensable deterrent for certain classes of murder. I say that only because I should not like this matter to be left

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without a statement of my clear and sincere belief, whether your Lordships agree with it or not.
But I think the most remarkable moment in this short debate was when my noble friend Lord Templewood said that he found, I will not say disquiet, but great sorrow at being divided in this question from the noble Marquess the Leader of the House. I put it to Lord Templewood that that exemplifies, as clearly as any aspect of this matter, how strongly the two points of view are held in this country; and there is no one that I can think of who would impute a lack of sincerity, either to my noble friend Lord Templewood or to the noble Marquess who leads this House. In that situation I believe that there is a duty to find a middle course.
I should like to put it to Lord Templewood in this way, because he has said—and criticism from friends is good for the soul, I know—that this Bill is not so much a compromise as an attempt to get out of a difficulty at any expense. Well, I ask him to listen to this debate, including his own contribution, and he will see that those who think as be does have maintained that the death penalty is not an indispensable deterrent for any form of murder. There are many of us—I am glad that my noble friend Lord Ailwyn has spoken, because he has exemplified a school of thought which, believe me, is by no means a small school of thought, as every public opinion poll has shown—who think that the death penalty is an indispensable deterrent for every class of murder. This Bill reflects the Government's view that it is an indispensable deterrent for some, but not all murders, and the Government have tried to find what are the murders which, as I have said, can be looked at from the point of view of the two limbs of my proposition: those likely to strike at law and order and those where the murderer is most likely to be deterred—because no one who has ever considered this problem has said that the death penalty is not a deterrent.
My Lords, in considering this Bill, your Lordships may or may not agree with the Government's selection of these murders. But if the making of a selection to the best of our ability is not a fair compromise, then I do not think that I compromise has any meaning at all. I
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venture to remind your Lordships once again—I am afraid I have done it before, and I ask your Lordships' pardon for it—that one of my great heroes is the first Marquess of Montrose, whom we in Scotland call "The Great Marquess". He is a hero not only to me but has been, for 300 years, to millions of my countrymen, because in Montrose the fire of moderation and of the need for compromise burnt as purely and strongly as the fire of fanaticism burnt in his opponents. I do not apologise. I believe it is right that v hen there are strongly held opinions that divide friends, divide families and divide Parties, Her Majesty's Government should seek for a middle course which will provide a decent and workable solution to the problem.
I want to say one word now concerning what the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, said with regard to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, and also on what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston. I shall, of course, convey to and discuss with my right honourable friend the suggestion which the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood has made, and I want to make clear to the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston that the passage of this Bill does not in any way affect or limit the operation of the Prerogative. In the case which he mentioned, which one occasionally finds, where there is a murder by shooting which has circumstances which mitigate its enormity, the Home Secretary will take that aspect into account; and I do not want it to go out from this House that there is any restriction on the right of the Home Secretary to advise a reprieve.
I do not want to argue in any logic-chopping way what the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, has said with regard to insanity and the age limit. The noble Viscount, lord Templewood, the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, and myself are, I believe, the only three members present to-day of that trade union of ex-Home Secretaries in your Lordships' House. But I do want to make clear that all cases within a certain line must be very carefully considered. That, no doubt, has happened. After all infanticide applies to a mother whose reason is affected at the time of the birth of the child, but not affected to the extent of insanity; and, clearly, all Home Secretaries would have

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considered a very long time before refraining from interfering in such a case. The same thing applies with regard to youth. But the governing principle must be, and must continue to be, that each case is considered on its merits and on the circumstances of that case. There is no other approach which can be substituted for that careful and intense regard of the circumstances of the case before the Home Secretary.
VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOOD: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble and learned Viscount, but would what he has said apply to those under eighteen? I understand that those under eighteen have been reprieved for something like fifty years although no change was made in the Statute Book.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the answer to the noble Viscount is this: both from the legal and the practical point of view, in the days before the Act to which he referred, cases would have to be considered individually, but that would not prevent any Home Secretary saying to himself with regard to those under eighteen: "It must be an exceptional case, a case so exceptional that I cannot imagine it, before I would allow that person to hang." But what he must not do, either in law or in morals, is to say: "I will in advance take a line with regard to a class of cases, a line that is contrary to the existing law of the land." He must consider the case on the individual circumstances. That is as I understand the position.
VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOOD: My Lords, I certainly understood, when I was Secretary of State, that all those under eighteen were reprieved, and I do not remember any case in which there was any discussion upon the individual murderer. I do not know whether the memory of the noble and learned Viscount is the same as my own.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, that was the result, but that did not prevent that approach to an exceptional case, had such arisen. I agree that it is difficult to imagine such a case; but it may happen, and what I am saying is that the Home Secretary must consider each case on its merits. But in considering each case he must take into account
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all the factors. I am not going through them in detail. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, may remember that they were enumerated by Mr. Herbert Gladstone, who was Home Secretary in 1907. I cannot remember whether the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, went as Under-Secretary to the Home Office in 1906 or 1908.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: It was in 1906.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I thought that was so, so that the statement was made at a time when the noble Viscount was Under-Secretary at the Home Office. He will remember that it is a classic statement, going into the factors which a Home Secretary takes into consideration, which are, of course, the individual factors and the public factors, including the confidence of the public in the administration of justice.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, what the noble and learned Viscount is saying may have great importance in the administration of the law when this Bill reaches the Statute Book. As I understood the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, he was urging that straight away, from now on, the Home Secretary ought to reprieve all cases of capital punishment until the matter had been elucidated by further research, and he instanced the cases of the under-eighteens and those convicted of infanticide as having set a precedent. But, Parliament having rejected a Bill for the abolition of capital punishment, and having passed a Bill establishing a crime of capital murder which is to be punished by death, would a Home Secretary be obedient to the law of the land if, beforehand, he recommended a reprieve, for such general reasons as the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, has mentioned, in every case that came before him? The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor said that the Home Secretary must consider the actual circumstances of the individual case before recommending a reprieve, but surely he must also do that before refusing a reprieve.
VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOOD: I am sorry to interrupt again. I do not suggest that the Home Secretary should say, as soon as the Bill becomes law, that he is going to recommend a reprieve in

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every case. What I want is that in practice he shall look at every case, and that the result shall be the same as has taken place in Belgium.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My noble friend Lord Templewood is asking my right honourable friend the Home Secretary to take the course which was so castigated by the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chief Justice, in the earlier debate. With great respect, I agree with what the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, has said. Each case must be looked at on its merits and circumstances; and these circumstances include not only those connected with the crime and the criminal but those connected with the public and also with public respect for the administration of justice. As I said, it was very well put, if I might be allowed to say so, in the statement of Mr. Herbert Gladstone, to which I have referred and which has always been considered the locus classicus in the matter. What is wrong, as I assume, is to say in advance that a certain class, all without individual consideration, will be reprieved, because that offends against the old rule about giving a licence to commit crime, contrary to the existing Statute Law of the Realm.
My Lords, I have tried to deal with the main point which the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston, made earlier. I fully appreciate the logical position of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, but I do not think it requires any further comment from me. I have already prayed in aid for my own purpose what my noble friend Lord Ailwyn has said. The controversy in its present stage has, I think, been going on long enough, because it is quite clear that we shall not in the immediate future reach complete agreement between the two sides. There will always be those
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who think we have gone too far. There will always be the abolitionists, for whom nothing short of total abolition is enough. As I have said, we have tried to find a middle course and I do commend to your Lordships the thought that this limited retention of capital punishment will preserve the essentials of law and order in the country while saving from the capital sentence those whom many feel should not be subjected to the ultimate penalty of the law. It is on those grounds that I commend the Bill for a Third Reading by your Lordships' House.
On Question, Bill read 3ª, and passed.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL
Brought from the Commons, and read 1ª.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I have to inform your Lordships that it has been arranged through the usual channels that the Motion of the noble Viscount, Lord Hall, on the future development of the fuel and power industries, which was down for to-day, and which was posponed, will be taken on Tuesday, April 2.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl for his announcement; we are grateful that the arrangement which he refers to has been made. I hope that my noble friend's Motion will be kept clear of other Business so that it can be adequately discussed.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before six o'clock.