Sitting of 18 February 1957

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BARRY CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.
BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday, 27th February.
CROYDON CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.
GLOUCESTER CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
  PEOPLE'S DISPENSARY FOR SICK ANIMALS BILL (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday, 27th February.
  STOCKTON-ON-TEES CORPORATION BILL (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  AUCTIONS (BIDDING AGREEMENTS) ACT
  Mr. Chichester-Clarkasked the Attorney-General how many prosecutions requiring his consent under Section 1 (3) of the Auctions (Bidding Agreements) Act, 1927, have taken place since November, 1955; and on how many occasions he has been asked to give his consent to the institution of proceedings in such cases.
  The Attorney-General (Sir R. Manningham-Buller): The answer to both parts of the Question is "None."
  Mr. Chichester-Clark: Does not my right hon. and learned Friend agree it is time that the Act was looked at again in view of the continuing widespread activities of rings? Although I recognise the difficulties of evidence, will he look at it again?
  Sir R. Manningham-Buller: I do not know that there is any need to look at the Act again. The difficulty lies, as my hon. Friend suggests, in securing evidence sufficient to justify a prosecution for an infringement of the terms of the Act.

  GOVERNMENT INFORMATION SERVICES

    Staff
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what specialist staff has been added to his Department,

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    or is contemplated, to assist in his duties of publicising the Government's home policy.
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (1) how many civil servants are engaged for a substantial part of their time in assisting him with the co-ordination of Government information services;
    (2) how many members of his staff have experience of publicity or public relations work.
    Mr. Bennasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (1) if he will give a list of the principal officers of his staff appointed for assisting him in his responsibilities for co-ordinating information services, together with details of their previous public relations experience;
    (2) if he wit give details of the establishment of the public relations section attached to his Department.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many professional journalists are at present employed in his Department.
    Mr. G. Jegerasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (1) how many of his staff have experience of information work in Colonial Territories;
    (2) how many members of his staff have had experience of broadcasting or journalistic work in Asia;
    (3) how many members of his staff have experience of propaganda work in the Middle East.
    Mr. George Craddockasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many staff of all grades are employed in his Department: and how many of them are solely engaged in the coordination of Government information services.
    Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (1) what plans he has for increasing the establishment of his Department;
    (2) how many civil servants with experience either of co-ordination or information have been transferred to his Department from other Ministries; and if he will give details of the present ranks and functions of such officials.
    Mr. Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what staff is employed under his supervision and control for the purpose of co-ordinating Government information services.
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many of his staff have experience of propaganda in Yugoslavia.
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Dr. Charles Hill): The responsibility for providing news and information about Departmental policy and administration remains with the Departmental Ministers concerned. It is my function to assist them in discharging that responsibility. For this purpose I need only a small central staff of persons who have general experience of Press and public relations work but are not necessarily specialists in Departmental subjects. My principal assistants will be the Prime Minister's Adviser on Public Relations and his Deputy; time will show whether additions to this staff are required.
    Mr. Chapman: Will the Chancellor—whose duties my hon. Friends and I thoroughly approve—give an assurance that there will be no attempt to have more than a very small nucleus of staff making contacts on the home front with newspapers, and so on, about the Government's home policy?
    Dr. Hill: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that what is needed is a very small staff, but he will appreciate that the contacts with the Press will be the contacts of the individual Departments.
    Mr. Benn: As the Leader of the House attributed the failure of the Conservatives at North Lewisham to a failure of public relations, may we take it that the right hon. Gentleman's staff will be progressively increased as the results of subsequent by-elections become apparent?
    Dr. Hill: No, Sir. It is not unusual for information officers and those who coordinate information to bear the cross which the hon. Member has described. I shall bear it, I hope, with fortitude.
    Mr. Jeger: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that up to now our propaganda abroad has been hopeless? Has he studied —if not, will he do so—an excellent document produced by the Daily Mirror

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    entitled "Britain's Voice Abroad", which will guide him in his up-to-now very amateurish activities?
    Dr. Hill: As the lion. Gentleman knows, I am hard at work scrutinising the overseas services. I have read the lively and stimulating publication to which he refers, as well as a number of other documents on the subject.
    Mr. Hughes: As the Minister is regarded as an authority on Yugoslavia since his famous broadcast referring to my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) as "the Tito of Tonypandy," can we take it that he himself will be putting over the British case to Yugoslavia?
    Dr. Hill: I would not dare to compete with the hon. Gentleman in being an expert on so many foreign countries.
    Mr. Jay: Is the right hon. Gentleman going to reply to the unfair attack on him by the Lord Privy Seal? Who is going to co-ordinate the speeches of the Lord Privy Seal with those of the Chancellor of the Duchy?
    Dr. Hill: I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's sympathy, but I see nothing in the speech of the Lord Privy Seal which is a reflection on me.
    Mr. Greenwood: Can the right hon. Gentleman say to what extent he accepts responsibility for the activities of Mr. Evans and how far Questions can be put down to him and how far to the Prime Minister?
    Dr. Hill: I share the services of Mr. Harold Evans with the Prime Minister. Questions relating to the co-ordination of information can no doubt be put down to me, as they have so generously been put down today.
    Mr. S. Silverman: In so far as the North Lewisham by-election has any bearing on the question of public relations, was not the real trouble not that the Government's policy was not fully known and understood but that it was?

    B.B.C. and I.T.A.
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he is aware of the anxiety in the British Broadcasting Corporation about the increase in guidance and pressure from Government
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    sources about the handling of the Suez crisis in news items; and whether he will therefore define the extent to which his officials will be used to interpret the news to the British Broadcasting Corporation and to newspapers.
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what direct contact he intends to establish and maintain between himself and the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Independent Television Authority.
    Dr. Hill: My function is to assist the Press and the B.B.C. by securing a better supply of official news and information. I can see no reason why this should give grounds for anxiety on the part of the B.B.C. I shall not establish nor maintain any direct formal contact with the B.B.C. or the Independent Television Authority.
    Mr. Chapman: Is the Minister not aware that during the Suez crisis the B.B.C. received what was called an unprecedented amount of "guidance and hints" from official quarters? In view of that, would he give an assurance that there will be no attempt at lower levels by officials to influence the policy content of B.B.C. programmes?
    Dr. Hill: I have had no indication of apprehension by the B.B.C. intimated to me. The hon. Member will appreciate that both at home and overseas the B.B.C. is autonomous about programme content. That is the position today.
    Mr. 1. Griffiths: In his former post as Postmaster-General, the right hon. Gentleman has been responsible to the House for B.B.C. services. What is the Postmaster-General's position today? Is his now a subordinate post?
    Dr. Hill: No, Sir. The Postmaster-General has clear-cut functions under the Charter, Licence and Agreement in the case of the B.B.C., and under the Television Act, 1954, in the case of the I.T.A. Those functions and responsibilities remain entirely unaffected and untouched.
    Mr. D. Jones: Does the right hon. Gentleman's original Answer mean that the British public is not now to have the "Radio Doctor" inflicted on it?
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: In view of the need for convincing people that the B.B.C. remains purely autonomous in

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    these matters, will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Foreign Office about the undesirability of its maintaining a liaison officer at Bush House to give guidance, as it is called, to the B.B.C.?
    Dr. Hill: The hon. Member will realise that there is a clause in the Licence and Agreement which relates to information for overseas programmes being made available. As for this particular appointment, I have no doubt that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary will take note of what the hon Member has said.
    Mr. Hobsonasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what machinery he proposes to use for coordinating the external services of the British Broadcasting Corporation with those of Government Departments; and whether he proposes to appoint a liaison officer between his Department and the external services of the British Broadcasting Corporation similar to that appointed by the Foreign Office.
    Dr. Hill: My right hon. Friends, the Secretaries of State for Foreign Affairs, Commonwealth Relations and the Colonies, prescribe the countries to which broadcasts by the B.B.C. external services should be sent and the languages to be used, but they do not, of course, bear any responsibility for the content of the programmes. I understand that their Departments have established arrangements to keep the B.B.C. informed about the policies and actions of Her Majesty's Government and I do not propose to establish any additional channels of contact.
    Mr. Hobson: Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to have any consultations with regard to the strength of the stations broadcasting these programmes in the appropriate language? Secondly, does the latter part of his reply mean that the B.B.C., or whoever is in charge of overseas services, is free to broadcast precisely what it wants in commenting upon the news, as it wishes, just as is done in Britain?
    Dr. Hill: The freedom of the B.B.C. in regard to programme content is in no way affected by my own organisation or work.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: The Chancellor has said that the freedom of the B.B.C. in regard to the content of programmes is not affected. Is he in any way intervening in other spheres?
    Dr. Hill: I have already given the answer that I am not proposing any additional channel of contact. The B.B.C.'s position remains precisely what it was before I began this work.

    Co-ordination
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what methods he will use to publicise the Government's views on home and foreign policy; and to what extent these methods include the use of special public relations officers with duties similar to those under the war-time Ministry of Information.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what co-ordinating machinery he proposes to establish in his new capacity as coordinator of Government information services.
    Dr. Hill: By co-ordinating, in regular meetings and otherwise, the day-to-day work of governmental information officers; by bringing them together to discuss their methods and problems; by helping to maintain a flow of news; by scrutinising the structure and functions of overseas information services—these are the main methods. Rather than create new channels of information I prefer, generally speaking, to try to secure a better flow through existing ones.
    Mr. Chapman: To relieve what I think are very legitimate anxieties, will the Chancellor give an assurance that there will be no attempt to set up some sort of Ministry of Information or Ministry of Propaganda on the lines of what is done by the less democratic nations?
    Dr. Hill: I can give the hon. Member an unqualified assurance on that subject. My task is to quicken the flow of news and I hope that he and the House will accept the assurance I have given about there being nothing resembling a Ministry of Information.
    Mr. Bennasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what progress he has made in co-ordinating the work of the public relations officers of other Departments.
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will make a statement on the progress he has so far made in co-ordinating the Government's information services.
    Dr. Hill: Good progress is being made.
    Mr. Benn: Will the right hon. Gentleman make available to the House material which is published abroad as part of the Government's information services? In particular, will he make available, for Members at any rate, in the Library, the London Press Service which is put out by the Central Office of Information, in view of the fact that in the critical days of the Suez crisis the only London editorials quoted in the London Press Service were those which were entirely favourable to the Government of the day, thus giving a completely one-sided view of British opinion on this matter?
    Dr. Hill: The hon. Member's question must be directed to the Ministers responsible rather than to me.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the Chancellor aware that the Prime Minister has told the House that the duties of the right hon. Gentleman are exactly those carried out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) in the period of the Labour Government? Is he aware that my right hon. Friend was not only the Minister responsible for coordinating information, but Leader of the House of Commons and Chairman of the Cabinet Economic Committee? Are we to take it, therefore, that one Labour Cabinet Minister is equal to three Tory Cabinet Ministers?
    Dr. Hill: I am not certain whether the point is that I have too little time or too much time to devote to this work. I can say at the outset that the task of scrutinising information services is heavy as well as interesting, and I am substantially engaged on that.
    Mr. Jay: Has the right hon. Gentleman been invited by the Government's supporters in Carmarthen, if there are any, to give there the same explanation of Government policy as he gave in North Lewisham?
    Dr. Hill: In the capacity which is under question, I want to say quite plainly
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    to the House that I am not concerned with party propaganda. In this capacity I am no more concerned with it than was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South when engaged on this particular piece of work.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: In case the right hon. Gentleman wants to search for Government supporters in Carmarthen, has he anyone on his staff who can speak Welsh?
    Dr. Hill: As far as I know, there is no one on my staff who can speak Welsh, but I do not regard that as a disablement.
    Mr. Allaunasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what steps he is taking, in view of the need for establishing the country's economic stability, to ensure that the propaganda issued by various Departments of Her Majesty's Government does not conflict with the country's economic and commercial interests.
    Dr. Hill: I have arranged for regular consultation among the public relations officers of the various Government Departments and am trying to improve the flow of information between Departments, and from Departments to the Press. The responsibility of individual Ministers for the public relations and information activities of their own Departments, however, remains unaltered.
    Mr. Allaun: In the event of another war similar to the armed conflict in Suez, will the Minister ensure that the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence do not issue propaganda which is likely to make the job of British exporters impossible in many parts of the world?
    Dr. Hill: The responsibility of my right hon. Friends remains untouched, as I said in answer to the original Question.
    Mr. Gower: Can my right hon. Friend explain why his appointment has occasioned so many Questions and so much curiosity?
    Dr. Hill: I welcome this thirst for information.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Board of Trade about the question that my hon. Friend has put to him, in view of the fact that the amount of very stupid

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    propaganda put out by the War Office in the Suez crisis has made things very much more difficult for British exporters in the Muslim world?
    Dr. Hill: In the review to which I have referred there will be the closest consultation with the Board of Trade.

    Gold Coast
    Captain Duncanasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will cause to be published on 1st March a White Paper, or other similar document, giving the story of the work of the British in the territories now to be called Ghana from the beginning of the British occupation to date, especially showing the advance in economic wealth, health, and progress of the people of the territories under British colonial rule; and if he will consult with the information divisons of all Government Departments to ensure that this document is circulated widely in the countries of the world where there is criticism of Britain on grounds of colonialism.
    Dr. Hill: A booklet called "The Making of Ghana" prepared for the Overseas Departments by the Central Office of Information was published on 30th January, 1957, by H.M. Stationery Office. This traces briefly the political, social and economic progress of the peoples of the Gold Coast under British rule. Copies will be distributed free through United Kingdom information offices in Commonwealth, colonial and foreign countries. The Central Office of Information is also preparing a popular illustrated booklet on a similar theme, as well as some material for visual presentation, to be published nearer the date of Ghana's independence. Nearly 50,000 copies of this booklet will be distributed overseas, including the United States of America.
    Captain Duncan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people in foreign countries have no conception of the British idea of a colonial policy, that the document to which he refers and of which I hold a copy, although excellent, is a factual statement which does not put over the real intent and content of British colonial policy and the success which British colonial policy has achieved? Will he have a look at this document to see whether it can be revised with a view to putting across to people abroad the story
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    of British colonial policy, of which Ghana is a very good example?
    Dr. Hill: The document is the more serious reference document already published. What is to be published in the first few days of March is an attractive popular presentation of the whole problem. That is to be augmented by a great deal of other material. I am glad that my hon. and gallant Friend has said what he has said, and I am sure that he has the support of the whole House.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has answered the Question, are we to deduce that in future similar Questions should be put to him and not to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, the Secretary of State for Commonwealth relations or the Financial Secretary, as responsible for the Central Office of Information?
    Dr. Hill: No, Sir. It is because my hon. and gallant Friend was shrewd enough to include in his Question a reference to consolidating the information divisions of all Government Departments that his Question found its way to the Table to be answered by me.
    Mr. G. Thomas: Will the Chancellor take care to see that the new document which he is to publish is well circulated in the U.S.A., where it certainly seems to be believed that we have never done anything good in the British Colonies? We have a story to tell.
    Dr. Hill: I will certainly see that it secures very wide distribution, including distribution in the United States of America.

    Review
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether, in examining the overseas information services, he will take into account the recommendations of the Drogheda Committee; and what action it is now proposed to take in regard to their implementation.
    Mr. G. Darlingasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what is the purpose of his inquiries into the British Broadcasting Corporation's overseas and European services; when he hopes to complete them and if he intends to publish the results.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he expects to conclude his urgent consideration of the British Broadcasting Corporation's French, Italian, Dutch, Portuguese, Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish services.
    Mr. George Craddockasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will publish a White Paper surveying the existing Government information services and detailing his plans for co-ordinating and developing them.
    Dr. Hill: The purpose of my review of the Government's information services is to seek ways in which they may be improved and to establish whether the balance of expenditure and effort which they involve needs to be adjusted. It will be some time before the review is completed and, thereafter, the Government will need to consider how they should inform the House of any decisions which may be taken. In the review, the recommendations of the Drogheda Committee will be taken fully into account.
    Mr. Davies: I recognise that at long last the recommendations of the Drogheda Committee are at least to be considered—although one does not necessarily endorse them all—but why are the Government being so slow in giving consideration to them? Does the Minister appreciate that the Report was issued over three years ago and that no action has been taken upon it? If the Government had already considered the Report and taken action, would not the Minister's job now be redundant?
    Dr. Hill: The review is now proceeding, and I had better confine myself to that in reply to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Greenwood: In view of the serious damage done to our prestige in Western Europe as the result of the Suez crisis, will the right hon. Gentleman bear specially in mind how great a mistake it would be to curtail the services referred to in my Question, relating to broadcasts to Western Europe?
    Dr. Hill: I will bear in mind the recommendations of the Drogheda Committee and all other considerations applying to Western Europe.
    Mr. Darling: Is the Minister aware that by not announcing the purpose of this
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    inquiry he is, perhaps wrongly, giving the impression that he is up to no good, and that the external services of the B.B.C. will be kicked around again as they have been by successive Governments? Does his assurance that he is making this inquiry in order to improve the services and not to cut them down mean that we can discuss his proposals before they are put into effect?
    Dr. Hill: The hon. Member must await the conclusion of the review before any question of discussing the Government's decision arises. On the matter of being up to no good, he will no doubt have observed that one decision in regard to overseas broadcasting was taken without waiting for the result of the review, and that was the increase in the B.B.C.'s Arabic programmes from four and a half hours to rather more than nine hours a day.
    Mr. Jay: As the Minister has just stated that his job has nothing to do with party propaganda, can he tell us as a fact whether he made a speech in North Lewisham? Secondly, as he is an expert on information, cannot he answer the simple question whether he will make the same speech in Carmarthen?
    Dr. Hill: The right hon. Gentleman must be boring himself with the repetition of this question. The fact that my tasks in relation to the speeding up of news and its co-ordination have no relation to party politics does not preclude me, in other capacities, from offering a few pregnant observations upon the subject.

    Asia
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what space has been acquired in newspapers circulating in Asia in order to explain the Government's colonial policy.
    Dr. Hill: It has never been the practice of Her Majesty's Government to purchase space in newspapers in Asia or elsewhere, on the grounds that there are better ways of securing the coverage in newspapers abroad of British policy and affairs. The news service and feature articles of the London Press Service are, for instance, widely available and used.
    Mr. Robinson: Whilst appreciating the difficulties of explaining, or indeed

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    explaining away, some aspects of Government colonial policy, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the suggestion in this Question might be pursued and might be of help?
    Dr. Hill: I did phrase my reply so as to suggest that, while it had never been done in the past, it was not necessarily excluded in the future.

    Foreign Nationals
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to what extent it is proposed to seek the advice of foreign nationals as to the most effective ways of spreading information abroad about conditions in the United Kingdom.
    Dr. Hill: I welcome advice from all fruitful sources on the best way to tell Britain's story abroad. I am getting a good deal.
    Mr. Robinson: Will the right hon. Gentleman not agree that during the war very excellent work was done in this respect by foreign nationals, and will he give every consideration to extending the use of such people?
    Dr. Hill: I will, and I meant what I said; I have had letters from all over the world—many of them are of an interesting and useful kind—about the presentation of Britain's case.
    Mr. Lagden: Will my right hon. Friend make sure that if he requires advice from foreign nationals, he does not overlook the advice that he might obtain from the right hon. Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill)?

    DUCHY OF LANCASTER
    Mr. Royleasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will give an estimate of the proportion of his time which will be devoted to the work of the Duchy of Lancaster.
    Dr. Hill: Although it is not possible to give a precise estimate of the proportion of my time that will be devoted to the work of the Duchy of Lancaster, as the requirements vary from week to week, the hon. Member can be assured that I allow adequate time for dealing with the affairs of the Duchy.
    Mr. Royle: This will not do. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there
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    really is some concern in the County of Lancaster as to whether or not its interests will be lost in this welter of coordination in other matters? Will he pay the county a visit and give us the advantage of his "delightful" Lancashire accent?
    Dr. Hill: While not promising the linguistic feat to which the hon. Gentleman referred, I may say that the first thing I did on being appointed was to ask the Lord Lieutenant when I might conveniently pay a visit to the Duchy. It has been arranged, and the hon. Member's apprehensions will soon be allayed.
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what proposals he has for securing economies in his Department.
    Dr. Hill: The hon. Member's Question is pertinent but premature.
    Mr. Hughes: Does he mean to tell the the House that he is going to employ more civil servants and increase national expenditure?
    Dr. Hill: The two specialist officers which I have I share with the Prime Minister, and no net addition in staff is involved.
    Mr. M. Stewartasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many ecclesiastical appointments, magisterial appointments, and appointments in the public services, respectively, are in the gift of the Duchy of Lancaster.
    Dr. Hill: Forty-five ecclesiastical, 1,924 magisterial and no public service appointments.
    Mr. Stewart: I recognise that the Chancellor is evidently going to be a rather busy man, but may I ask him whether, by and large, the powers of patronage exercised by the Duchy of Lancaster are greater or less than those exercised by the Duchy of Devonshire?
    Dr. Hill: I should require very long notice of that question.

  PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Retirement and Old-Age Pensioners
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware that the continued

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    rise in the cost of living is inflicting hardship on old-age pensioners; and if he will now take steps to increase the basic pension rates and public assistance rates to an extent proportionate to the increase in the cost of living.
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance when he expects to be able to announce his decision with regard to the National Federation of Old-Age Pensioners' request for an increase of £1 per week in the basic pension; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Hunterasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, in view of the fact that, in relation to purchasing power, the £2 per week old-age pension is now worth only 37s. 6d., if he will take urgent steps to raise the basic rates of old-age pensions.
    The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): I would refer the hon. Members to my answers to similar Questions on 28th January and 4th February.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the Government are grossly unjust in seeking increased incomes for landlords and others who are better off than old-age pensioners, many of whom are in penury and want, and will he reconsider his cruel and harsh answer?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Before the hon. and learned Gentleman calls my answer harsh and cruel, he should really appreciate that rates of retirement pension have never been moved frequently by any Government. It is less than two years since we gave an increase in the rate. Since then the cost of living has moved 9 per cent., whereas the former Government waited five years for an increase of 28 per cent.
    Mr. Marquand: But does the right hon. Gentleman not recollect that Mr. Osbert Peake told the House that the yardstick as to whether pensions should be increased would be the number of persons on assistance? Has not the number of retirement pensioners on assistance now reached almost the same point as it did when Mr. Peake made that statement?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am answering a Question later on the number of persons
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    on assistance. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman will find that it will provide very much assistance for his argument.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has not answered my Question as to when he expects to be in a position to announce his decision on the request by the National Federation of Old-Age Pensioners? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that when the Government did increase old-age pensions or retirement pensions last, they put the date forward so that the increase had lost its value before it was received? Bearing that fact in mind, is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the nation is disturbed about what is happening to our old folk with this constant increase in the cost of living?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: If the hon. Gentleman will study the previous answers to which I have referred him, he will see that I did answer his Question. On the second part of his supplementary, as I think he knows, when changes of this sort have taken place in the past there has always been, for obvious administrative reasons, a gap of some months between the initiation of the legislation and the putting into effect of the actual changes.
    Mr. Hunter: In view of the Minister's answer to me the other week to the effect that the £2 a week pension is now worth only 37s. 6d. a week, is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that that loss of 2s. 6d. a week means a lot to those receiving only £2 a week? Will the Minister investigate the position again?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am not sure to which of the numerous answers that I have given the hon. Gentleman he is referring, but he will bear in mind that the real value of the pension is today higher than it was during the whole period between 1948 and 1955.
    Dr. Kingasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much the cost of living has increased since retirement pensions were last increased.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: By 9 per cent.
    Dr. King: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his chief preoccupation ought to be with the poverty of the poor and that the old-age pensioner is steadily moving into poverty? Will the Minister

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    treat this as a matter of some urgency and do something for the old-age pensioners?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I would ask the hon. Member to study the further lengthy supplementary answers I gave to his hon. Friends a few minutes ago.
    Mr. Randall: As the right hon. Gentleman is constantly repeating to the House that there is nothing doing for the old-age pensioners, may I ask if his attention has been drawn to a statement in the old-age pensioners' journal that the Government are to increase the pension by 5s. in April next and that this matter is being considered by the Cabinet?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member must not expect me to accept responsibility for publications of that kind, or, indeed, any kind; I answer to this House at this Box.
    Mr. Allaunasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) if he will give an estimate of the average weekly amount spent by old-age pensioners on food;
    (2) if he will undertake an inquiry into the present budgets of old-age pensioners under various heads of expenditure, and publish the results.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I would refer the hon. Member to the information about expenditure by pensioners on food available in the Reports of the National Food Survey. Other information arising from the inquiry by the Ministry of Labour into household expenditure is due, I understand, to be published about the middle of this year.
    Mr. Allaun: Is the Minister aware that an inquiry now being undertaken in the typical industrial area of Salford reveals that very many pensioners, even after receiving their supplementary allowance, have less than 2s. 6d. a day left to spend on food? Does he appreciate that they cannot feed themselves properly on that amount? Will not the inquiry reveal the different spending pattern for old-age pensioners as against those with more reasonable standards and show that the cost-of-living index is not properly reflecting the hardship of old-age pensioners?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As far as the last part of that question is concerned, I think that if the hon. Member studies my
    20
    Answer, which, I am afraid, was a bit long, he will be somewhat reassured that these figures relate to the people about whom he is particularly concerned in the Question. As far as the first part of his Question is concerned, of course I cannot comment without knowing what other resources are available.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Has the Minister considered—and if not, will he do so—referring to his Advisory Committee the comments of the Phillips Committee on the relevance of the existing cost-of-living index to the pattern of spending of old-age pensioners?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am not at all sure that that is an appropriate matter for reference to my Advisory Committee, but I am well aware of the Report of the Phillips Committee on this and on a good many other points.
    Mr. Houghtonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what percentage of retirement pensioners were receiving National Assistance payments at the most recent available date.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Some 23·6 per cent of retirement pensioner households were receiving such payments at 30th September, 1956.
    Mr. Houghton: Is this percentage tending to rise?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It is quite true that it is 2 of 1 per cent. higher than for 1955, but it is rather lower than for the previous three years.

    Maternity Allowances
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if, in view of the frequency of late claims for maternity allowances, he will take steps to disseminate more widely information about the nature of the regulations governing claims for such benefits.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Special steps are taken to spread this information by means of posters displayed in local National Insurance offices, ante-natal clinics and child welfare clinics, and by the issue of explanatory leaflets to all expectant mothers applying for welfare foods. If the hon. Member has any further suggestions for publicity, I will gladly consider them.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Minister aware that in at least one case, of which I have informed him, his Department failed to supply the information to the mother, and the appeal tribunal took the view that the onus was on the mother to find out the nature of the regulations and not on his Department to supply the information when the mother applied for the welfare vouchers? Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into this matter and ensure that the explanatory leaflet is issued to all expectant mothers when they apply for the welfare vouchers?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The information is certainly issued to all expectant mothers with the welfare food vouchers. That is the regular system, apart from the additional methods of publicity to which I referred in my answer; but I agree that no system can be absolutely certain of conveying information to everybody. If the hon. Gentleman has any further proposal, I will gladly consider it.

    Respiratory Diseases
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will now pay benefit under the Industrial Injuries Act to those who suffer from respiratory disease as a result of living in areas where the atmosphere is heavily contaminated by commercial processes.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am afraid that the hon. Member's proposal, which raises wide questions, goes far beyond the provisions of the Industrial Injuries Act, 1946.
    Dr. Stross: While recognising that the proposal contains a very wide suggestion, may I ask whether the Minister does not agree that to distinguish between injury and disease, irrespective of how it was obtained, is becoming very old-fashioned? Is it not a fact that when industrial processes contaminate an area, citizens who suffer from bronchial disease are suffering directly as a result of those industrial processes?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Industrial Injuries Act is designed to deal with the special risks of accidents and diseases arising from particular employments. Questions of diseases affecting people in different areas certainly, in my judgment, ought not to be dealt with by means of the
    22
    Industrial Injuries Fund, contributions to which are made against accidents at work.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: In view of the fact that air pollution is a great scourge in many places which are not regarded as being heavily affected—for example, Derby—and as it does have a measurable effect in these classes of disease, could not the Minister look into the matter again?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that disease suffered, apart from industrial causes, can be dealt with under the normal sickness benefit provisions of the National Insurance Acts, which I should have thought was a much better way of dealing with it.

    Pension Schemes, West Germany
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he has noted the proposals for retirement pensions now under consideration in Western Germany; and what consideration he is giving to the practicability of a similar scheme in Britain.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. McKay) on 11th February.
    Dr. Stross: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the flat rates of contributions and flat rates of payments are now very old-fashioned indeed, and should we not think again on new lines?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: That is quite a different question. The hon. Gentleman asked me about the German system, which although no doubt well designed and calculated for the German situation is certainly from our point of view a very complex and elaborate system.
    Mr. Marquand: Could not the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Government are considering a scheme of this kind?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: If the right hon. Gentleman will put down such a Question, I will endeavour to answer it.

    War Disabled Pensioners
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware that the recent award of special

    23
    age allowance to war pensioners is being deducted from their National Assistance payments; and whether this is done by his authority.
    Mr. Simmonsasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware that war disabled pensioners who are now eligible for the age allowance but are in receipt of National Assistance are having their National Assistance grants reduced by the amount of their age allowance; and if he will take the necessary steps to ensure that these 1914–18 war disabled veterans receive in full the benefits he intended them to receive.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In the case of war disability pensioners receiving National Assistance who qualify for the special age allowance, 20s. of the pension will already be disregarded in the assessment of their resources for National Assistance purposes. The amount by which a pension exceeds 20s. is taken into account by the National Assistance Board in accordance with the National Assistance Act.
    Mr. Hynd: Is this not about the meanest thing yet that this Government has done? Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that a lot of my constituents have got a special allowance of 5s. and that this amount is immediately knocked off their National Assistance payments? Is that not a mean thing to do?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I can to a certain extent understand the hon. Gentleman's feelings, but he should not try to make a political point out of this. The provision is exactly the same as that when other social benefits have been improved by various Governments. Under the original Act, the Act of 1948, the Assistance Board has been statutorily bound to take this into account in assessing the applicants' needs.
    Mr. Marquand: While that is true, does the Minister not think that many of these disregards are now stated in terms of money in 1948, and would it not be a good thing to review them and increase them?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am always willing to consider any suggestion from the right hon. Gentleman, but he will himself appreciate that any widespread change in the system of disregards has
    24
    the disadvantage of giving the extra relief in the very direction in which, in the nature of things, it is less needed than others.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Since Parliament in 1946 and 1948 agreed that there should be payments of a certain amount in various categories, is there not now a very strong case for reviewing these amounts in order to make their real value in 1957 equal to the increase in the cost of living?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I would not decline to look at any suggestions the right hon. Gentleman makes on this very difficult subject, but I would not necessarily agree with him that disregards should be treated in the same way as benefits from the point of view of the effect on them of changes in prices.
    Mr. Simmons: Was not this in fact a special concession made as a result of the campaign by B.L.E.S.M.A. to give additional benefits to ageing war veterans of the First World War? Was this not a question of disallowance on the first 20s. of pension, but a supplementary—not a pension? Is not this practice defeating the object which B.L.E.S.M.A. had in mind and to which the Minister acceded quite recently? Surely the right hon. Gentleman is clever enough not to be double-crossed by the Treasury on this matter?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: This is a treatment of a supplementary allowance in exactly the same way as all the other supplementary allowances under The war pensions scheme have been treated. As the hon. Member for Brierley Hill (Mr. Simmons) with his experience of war pensions administration will know, in the case of many seriously war disabled the pension takes them out of the scope of National Assistance.
    Dame Irene Ward: Will my right hon. Friend reconsider this question, having regard to the fact that this was a concession won after many years of fighting? Could not my right hon. Friend put to the Chairman of the National Assistance Board that it would be the wish of everyone that there should be some particular arrangement about this special new concession? Would it be within the power of the Chairman of the National Assistance Board to direct that it should be treated in a special fashion? If so, will

    25
    my right hon. Friend make representations to that effect and to have that done? That is what we want to know.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I will try to answer some of the supplementary questions put to me by my hon. Friend. In reply to the penultimate question, the Assistance Board is bound by statute in this matter. In reply to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I would refer her to what I said to hon. Members opposite about the more serious cases. I am sure my hon. Friend knows more than anyone else that most concessions are won after very vigorous fighting.
    Mr. Hynd: I beg to give notice that, in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall seek to raise the matter again on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he has yet considered the resolution passed on 27th January by the Staffordshire County Conference of the British Legion concerning the special allowance for disabled pensioners, a copy of which has been sent to him; and if he will give sympathetic consideration to remedying this grievance.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Yes, Sir. I have seen this resolution and the hon. Member will by now have received my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary's letter in reply to the one with which the hon. Member was good enough to forward it. I have nothing to add to this except to say that I do not think that the word "grievance" is properly applied to the necessary limitations on an improvement which, as my hon. Friend explained, is designed to concentrate the resources available where they are most needed.
    Mr. Swingler: While thanking the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for his very full reply, may I ask whether the Minister is not aware that there is very strong feeling that this allowance should be only an interim measure and that it should be extended to all pensioners? Is he aware that there are many war pensioners who are not so severely disabled and not so old as to benefit from this allowance but who are, nevertheless, very hard hit by the spiral of rising prices and are having a difficult time? Will the Minister there-
    26
    fore keep this matter before him all the while?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Of course, it is always possible to argue that the line of demarcation in any improvement should be further out, but if one allowed oneself to be deterred by that it simply would not be possible to make improvements of this kind to deal with the hardest cases.

    Widows
    Mrs. L. Jegerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance to what pension a widow, aged 49 years, is entitled, whose husband has fully paid his contributions; and at what age she is entitled to an old-age pension.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am sending the hon. Lady a leaflet which sets out more fully than is possible within the reasonable compass of a Parliamentary Answer the various conditions of eligibility for widows pensions. The earliest age of entitlement to a retirement pension is 60. If the hon. Lady has any particular case in mind, perhaps she will be good enough to let me know.
    Mrs. Jeger: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the 10s. widow is having to contribute more than half of that pension to buy a stamp in order at some subsequent date to be entitled to a retirement pension? Will the right hon. Gentleman look again at the whole question of the 10s. widow, who is much worse off because her husband has died than the woman whose husband survives?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am sure the hon. Lady will not overlook the fact that, within the last few weeks, I have made regulations which substantially improve the position in sickness and unemployment benefit for many of these widows.
    Mrs. Jeger: Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that nothing he has said recently affects the position of the 10s. widow, who is in a particularly hard-hit category?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am afraid the hon. Lady is misinformed, because the 10s. widow figures prominently among the ladies who are benefiting by this. If the hon. Lady studies the regulations, she will see that is so.

    Pensions and Earnings
    Dr. Kingasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what the basic retirement pension was as a percentage of the average industrial earnings in 1946, 1950, 1955 and 1956.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Dr. King: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the old-age pensioner has a just claim to share in the increasing standard of living as we move

    —

    Average Weekly earnings*

    Retirement Pension

    Single rate pension as percentage of all earnings

    Married rate pension as percentage of men's earnings

    All workers

    Men only

    Single Rate

    Married Rate

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    Per cent.

    Per cent.

    1946—January

    …

    92

    7

    114

    1

    †10

    0

    †20

    0

    10·8

    17·5

    October

    …

    101

    0

    120

    9

    26

    0

    42

    0

    25·7

    34·8

    1950—April

    …

    124

    1

    145

    9

    26

    0

    42

    0

    21·0

    28·8

    October

    …

    128

    0

    150

    5

    26

    0

    42

    0

    20·3

    27·9

    1955—April

    …

    182

    3

    217

    5

    40

    0

    65

    0

    21·9

    29·9

    October

    …

    187

    2

    222

    11

    40

    0

    65

    0

    21·4

    29·2

    1956—April‡

    …

    197

    9

    235

    4

    40

    0

    65

    0

    20·2

    27·6

    *Average weekly earnings of manual wage earners employed in manufacturing industries generally and in a number of the principal non-manufacturing industries, as published in the Ministry of Labour Gazette.

    † Old Age Pension.

    ‡ Latest date for which figures are available.

    Pneumoconiosis, West Bromwich
    Mr. Dugdaleasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) the total number of cases of pneumoconiosis in West Bromwich since 5th July, 1948, up to the present time, including those who have died therefrom;
    (2) the number of foundry workers in West Bromwich who have died since 5th July, 1948, who were suffering from pneumoconiosis at the time of their death.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I regret that in neither case is the information asked for by the right hon. Gentleman available.
    Mr. Dugdale: Does the right hon. Gentleman's inability to provide this information not demonstrate the need to have an adequate diagnosis of this disease and in particular to have large-scale
    28
    away from a war economy? Will not the handful of figures which he has not yet given me show that the relative position of the old-age pensioner is getting steadily worse as we move away from the war economy? Will the right hon. Gentleman bear these facts in mind?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am not without sympathy with a certain amount of what the hon. Member has said, but I would not go so far as to say that current rates of wages are the only criteria to be taken into account.
    Following are the figures:
    X-rays, not only for West Bromwich but for the Black Country, so that the proper diagnosis may be made, and made early?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No, Sir. The fact that I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman the figures for which he asks has nothing whatever to do with diagnosis or medical grounds but is due to the fact that the figures for this disease are not kept on a local basis.
    Mr. Dugdaleasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance the number of foundry workers in West Bromwich who are receiving special hardship allowances in addition to disablement benefit in respect of pneumoconiosis.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I gave the right hon. Member the available information in reply to his Question on 19th December, to which Answer I would refer him.

    Assistance Grants, Gateshead
    Mr. Randallasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance the number of persons in Gateshead in receipt of National Assistance at the most recent date, and twelve months earlier, and what was the average amount of assistance on those dates.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In an area extending a little beyond the county borough of Gateshead, 8,216 weekly Assistance grants were current on 24th January, 1956, and 8,217 on 22nd January, 1957. Information about the average amount of such grants is not available for particular areas.
    Mr. Randall: Would the Minister agree that the figures which he has given reveal that there is increased need arising from the cost of living? Ought not the approach to this to be rather in the direction of increasing the basic rate of old-age pensions than in increasing the Assistance rates?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: That is quite another question, but the figures which I have given the hon. Member reveal an increase of one on a total of over 8,000.

    Prescription Charges (Assistance)
    Mr. Randallasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how much of the Supplementary Estimate of the National Assistance Board is due to National Health prescription charges.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: About £150,000.
    Mr. Randall: Do the incidence of claims that are coming in show that the Supplementary Estimate is justified, or are the claims increasing and will they go beyond the Supplementary Estimate? Can the right hon. Gentleman give any reason why information is held back with regard to supplementary reports from the National Assistance Board concerning prescriptions?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have no information as to any reports on this subject being held back by the Board. If the hon. Member gets in touch with me, I will be glad to clear that up. The figures are the Board's best estimate of the additional sum required for this purpose for the remainder of the financial year.

    War Widows
    Mr. Simmonsasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware that the Royal Warrant provisions for elderly war widows without children are now much lower than the National Assistance scales; and if he will consider the immediate granting of a rent allowance, through his Department, to all aged and/or incapacitated war widows.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No, Sir. I think the hon. Member is misinformed.

    National Insurance Benefits (Value)
    Mr. Houghtonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance the amount by which National Insurance benefits fall short of their 1946 value owing to the rise in the cost of living since that year.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: About 1s. 8d. on the current single person's rate of retirement pension, and about 2s. 3d. on the married couple's rate. The other main National Insurance benefits did not come into operation until July, 1948.
    Mr. Houghton: What is this that we hear about the restoration of the 1946 purchasing power of these benefits? Will not the Minister fulfil his party's promise to keep the purchasing power of these benefits at 1946 values? Surely, this information, linked with that given in reply to Question No. 43 today, suggests that action is now needed.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I think that if the hon. Member considers the pattern of action in these matters, to which I have referred already twice this afternoon, he will appreciate that we have more than redeemed our pledge in these matters and have a record which compares very favourably with that of right hon. Gentlemen opposite.

    THE PRIME MINISTER (TALKS WITH PRESIDENT EISENHOWER)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he will arrange for the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to accompany him to Bermuda in order to co-ordinate the information services on matters arising from his conference.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): I have been asked to reply.
    No, Sir; the services of my right hon. Friend will be very valuable when the time comes for public information to be given as the policies resulting from this important meeting unfold.
    Mr. Hughes: Will the Lord Privy Seal consult the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster so that the Chancellor can explain to him the difference between a shot in the arm and a kick in the pants?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Does the Answer of the Lord Privy Seal imply that no information about this meeting is to be given during the course of the conference in Bermuda?
    Mr. Butler: If I may answer the hon. Member, who has invariably complained about communiqués following from our international meetings, it is our intention that a communiqué should be issued on this occasion. No doubt when the communiqué is issued it will be seen what a valuable meeting it is likely to have been. It will then be possible for the services of my right hon. Friend to be employed in unfolding the results of the meeting.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Would it not be a wise precaution for the Prime Minister to take the Chancellor of the Duchy with him to ensure that the communiqué is the right sort of communiqué?
    Mr. Butler: The duties of my right hon. Friend amount to clarification. Therefore he will be very valuable when the communiqué is placed in his hands.
    Mr. Crossman: In view of the communiqué which was issued after the last meeting of a British Prime Minister with the President of the U.S.A. when we were told that full agreement was reached on every detail of Middle Eastern policy, could not the Chancellor be sent on this occasion to prevent clear lies being told to British people on behalf of the Government?

    HOUSE OF COMMONS CATERING
    Mr. Doddsasked the honourable Member for Woolwich, West, as Chairman of the kitchen Committee, if he will
    32
    make a statement on the accounts of the Refreshment Department for 1956.
    Sir William Steward: My Committee hopes to submit its report to the House in March. Subject to audit, the accounts for the year before taking into consideration any sums received or due from the Treasury for reimbursement of wages and other costs incurred when the House is not sitting show a profit of £104. This is the second time the Department has paid its way since 1944, the last occasion being in 1954.
    Mr. Dodds: Whilst congratulating all concerned on the splendid results—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—may I ask how the bank overdraft compares with the formidable figures of a few years ago? Will the hon. Gentleman also say if the Treasury is yet prepared to play the game so that the prices charged to Members of Parliament and all who work in and around this building can be reduced from the very high prices now charged to reasonable prices such as those which would be expected by any decent employer?
    Sir W. Steward: The bank overdraft on 31st December, 1956, was £8,965. At that date £3,800 was owing from the Treasury. Had that been received prior to the accounts being made up, the overdraft would have been down to £5,165. In December, 1951, and December, 1953, the overdraft was approximately £42,000. The latter part of the hon. Member's question should really be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I would, however, say that as recently as November and December last my Committee made representations to the Treasury in regard to its difficulties. Further discussions are due to take place shortly.
    Mr. Gaitskell: In supporting my hon. Friend's request for lower prices, may I ask the Chairman of the Committee whether he will also consider quality? In particular, can we have some better sausages?
    Sir W. Steward: I will certainly bear in mind the right hon. Gentleman's comments. I can only assure him that the majority of people who take meals in this House are only too ready to pay tribute to the labours of the staff employed and the quality.

    33
    On the question of costs, the House may be interested to know—this is worth listening to—concerning the alleged high prices, that in a busy month like last November, of the total moneys received from the sale of food, excluding private banquets, 15s. of every £1 had to be paid away in wages incurred in the preparation and the serving thereof. In those circumstances, how can we reduce prices?

ANGLO-JORDAN TREATY (TERMINATION)
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. YOUNGER: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the agreement to terminate the Anglo-Jordan Treaty on 1st March or 1st April.
The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. David Ormsby-Gore): I will, with permission. Sir, answer Question No. 119.
For some time it has been apparent that, in the opinion of both the parties, the Anglo-Jordan Treaty of Alliance, concluded in 1948, no longer serves the best interests of either country.
Her Majesty's Government informed the Jordan Government some weeks ago that they were anxious that the Treaty relations between the two countries should serve to maintain and strengthen the friendship between them and not stand in its way; and that, as I informed the House on 23rd January, they were, therefore, willing in accordance with the wishes of the Jordan Government to enter into immediate discussions with regard to the Treaty.
On 4th February discussions between representatives of the two Governments began in Amman and on 13th February a joint declaration was initialled by them and published. I will circulate the full text in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
This declaration records agreement on certain basic matters, which it is intended to embody in a formal instrument. These matters are: first, the termination of the Treaty by 1st March if possible and in any case not later than 1st April of this year; secondly the withdrawal of British forces stationed in Jordan in pursuance of the objects of the Treaty of 1948, such
34
withdrawal to commence as soon as possible after the signature of formal documents terminating the Treaty and to be completed not later than six months after the termination of the Treaty; thirdly, provision for the removal or disposal within the same period of all British stores, equipment, installations and other property in Jordan.
The Jordan Government have undertaken to give all necessary facilities and assistance in connection with the withdrawal of British forces and the removal and disposal of British property. Joint committees consisting of representatives of the two Governments have been set up and are now meeting to examine the detailed problems involved.
Her Majesty's Government regard the declaration as a satisfactory step in the negotiations. In view of the friendly spirit in which the discussions have so far been conducted, Her Majesty's Government look forward to their early and satisfactory conclusion.
Mr. Younger: While recognising that the collapse of the Government's policy in the Middle East has made our former relations with Jordan obsolete, and that it is right to change them, may I ask whether it is not possible for the Minister to give the House an idea of proposals for the more constructive use of the taxpayers' money in such a way as to maintain our influence in this area? The right hon. Gentleman has not given us such an indication. We shall save quite a lot of money on this. Can he give us an idea of the more useful purposes on which he proposes to spend that money?
Turning to a more detailed point, in view of the fact that, as I understand, some British stores were appropriated during the recent crisis for possible use against Israel, can the Minister give a complete assurance that none of the military stores now in Jordan will be disposed of within the Middle East except in accordance with the principles embodied in the Tripartite Declaration which, we are now to understand, is still part of Her Majesty's Government's policy?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Yes, Sir. I can certainly give the right hon. Gentleman the assurance that stores will be disposed of only in accordance with the Tripartite Declaration.

35
I do not really think that it would be appropriate, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question, to give a detailed review of Her Majesty's Government's future policy in regard to the Middle East.
Mr. P. Noel-Baker: May I follow up what my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) has asked? As the Government have spent £70 million on subsidies to Jordan and we have, by the Suez policy, lost all military advantage and all political influence in that area, will not the Government now consider a new policy, and divert this £12 million a year to a United Nations fund for the improvement of economic conditions, to deal with conditions such as those in the Aden Protectorate, for example, which are described by The Times correspondent?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: We have not lost all influence in the area, but, I repeat, this is not the moment to make a declaration of what the Government propose to do with such money as may be available.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Can my right hon. Friend say what will happen to the permanent installations which have been established by the use of British funds? Will they be sold to the Jordan Government? I am referring to such things as roads, water supply and sewerage installations.
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: My noble Friend is talking about rather different matters. The military installations, the military buildings, will be taken over, at a valuation, by the Jordan Government, who will have to pay for them. Development projects are really not the same, and do not really come within the terms of the negotiation which is now going on.
Mr. S. Silverman: Having regard to the different treatment of Jordan and Egypt in the recent crisis, which was then justified by the existence, in one case, of the Anglo-Jordan Treaty, can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what effect the abrogation of that Treaty may be now be expected to have on the Tripartite Declaration in relation to the guarantee of frontiers?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: As has frequently been stated, the Tripartite Declaration
36
stands in relation to Jordan. Her Majesty's Government's obligations for the defence of Jordan now rest on the Tripartite Declaration and, of course, on the Charter of the United Nations.
Mr. Dugdale: Are we to understand that no further subsidies of any kind are to be paid to Jordan by Her Majesty's Government?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: I am not going to enter into the details of the negotiation, but I would not say that that was necessarily the case.
Captain Waterhouse: Is my right hon. Friend aware that though, in the sad circumstances that have arisen, this development undoubtedly has become necessary, it will be received with great regret in many quarters, and that this action is very unlikely to eventuate to the advantage of Jordan herself?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: That may well be so.
Dr. Stross: May we be told whether it is true that during recent events a considerable quantity of war materials was rather forcibly borrowed by Jordan from British stores? If that is true, can we be told whether any of it has come back, and, if not, whether we intend to ask for it back?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: Yes, Sir; a certain quantity of military stores was seized from Zerqa during the autumn. We are now investigating exactly what is missing, and we have an assurance that either those stores will be returned to us or that the Jordan Government will pay for such stores as they keep.
Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: Could the Minister of State explain how military stores and equipment can conceivably be disposed of by 2nd March which, I think, was the earliest date he named?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: They have not to be disposed of by 2nd March. 1st March was the date I mentioned—that the Treaty should be brought to an end, if possible, by 1st March. There will then be six months in which the British troops there will be able to get out what stores they want and to come to some arrangement for the purchase by Jordan of such stores as remain.
Mr. H. Morrison: The Minister has stated that under the Tripartite Declaration there remains the obligation to go to the assistance of Jordan if she is attacked. Does it not also imply that if Israel were attacked by Jordan or someone else we have an equal obligation to go to her defence?
Mr. Ormsby-Gore: That is entirely correct.
Following is the text of the joint declaration initialled in Amman on 13th February, 1957.
In order to give effect to the desire of the Governments of the United Kingdom and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan to terminate the Anglo-Jordan Treaty in an agreed manner, and, at the same time, to preserve peaceful and friendly relations between the two countries, the United Kingdom and Jordanian delegations, being so empowered by their respective Governments, have agreed as follows:
1. The Treaty of Alliance signed between the Governments of the United Kingdom and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan at Amman on 15th March, 1948, together with the Annex and any Notes and Letters exchanged upon the signature of the Treaty and any other supplementary agreements relating thereto, will terminate and cease to have effect in virtue of Notes to be exchanged.
Both the exchange of Notes and the termination of the Treaty will take place on 1st March if possible, and, in any case, not later than 1st April, 1957.
2. Withdrawal of British forces stationed in Jordan in pursuance of the objects of the Treaty of 1948 will commence as soon as possible after the date of the above-mentioned exchange of Notes, and will be completed not later than six months from the termination of the Treaty.
3. The above-mentioned withdrawal will be conducted in accordance with the following principles:

(a) The Government of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan will give to the Government of the United Kingdom all necessary facilities and assistance in connection with the withdrawal of British forces.

(b) Until their withdrawal from Jordan is complete, British forces will continue to enjoy all the immunities hitherto enjoyed by them in accordance with the terms of
38
Article 5 of the Annex to the Treaty of Alliance of 1948.

(c) The Government of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan will give to the Government of the United Kingdom all necessary facilities and assistance for the removal or disposal by the Government of the United Kingdom of all British stores, equipment and other property in Jordan, including any transferred from British depots or installations without United Kingdom Agreement after 30th October, 1956.

(d) The Government of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan will either:

(i) themselves take over at a fair valuation having regard to the use to which they have been put, any buildings, installations or permanent structures which have been constructed under the terms of Articles 1, 2 and 4 of the Annex to the Treaty of Alliance between the United Kingdom and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan signed on 22nd March, 1946, or under the terms of Articles 1 (C) and 1 (D) of the Annex to the Treaty of Alliance of 1948; or

(ii) afford such facilities as may reasonably be necessary to enable the Government of the United Kingdom to dispose thereof to the best advantage.

(e) The Government of the United Kingdom will take steps to remove or dispose of the aforesaid British property, buildings, installations and permanent structures, and, as is provided in paragraph 2 above, to withdraw, not later than six months from the termination of the Treaty, such British forces as are required to remain in Jordan for the purpose of dealing with this removal or disposal.

4. Joint committees consisting of representatives of the two Governments will be set up forthwith to examine the detailed problems involved in the termination of the Treaty and the withdrawal of British forces.
These committees will be guided by the principles set out in paragraph 3 above. They will report back to the conference of the representatives of the two Governments as soon as possible, and, in any case, not later than 20th February. Taking into account these reports, the conference will prepare draft notes for the approval of both Governments.
5. This joint declaration is not in itself the formal instrument terminating the Treaty.
6. This joint declaration was issued on 13th February, 1957, in English and Arabic, both texts being equally authentic.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  HOUSING AND TOWN DEVELOPMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.40 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The main substance of the Bill falls naturally into three parts. The first deals with new rates of subsidy applicable to all houses, tenders for which are received on or after 1st August, 1956; the second deals with overspill. The third part does some miscellaneous but very necessary tidying up.
  On the first two parts I will have rather a lot to say. The subject is detailed and of some complexity, and I am anxious to give as full an explanation as is reasonable of what is in the Bill.
  On the third part, I propose to say very little as I believe that the Clauses are self-explanatory and, at this stage of our proceedings, need little detailed discussion.
  If I were to risk a forecast of our debates both today and in Committee, I would not be excessively surprised if Part I provokes a certain amount of argument. On Part II, I would hope that there would be a substantial measure of agreement, but I would say this about Part I, that our approach is straight forward, that subsidies should not be given to those who do not need them. I believe that the House will realise the logic and fairness of this approach. There may be differences of detail or of emphasis, but we believe that this approach is in the ultimate interest of everybody, tenants, ratepayers and taxpayers, which today, in one form or another, includes everybody.
  Having said that, I should like to begin the detail of my speech by calling attention to the major problem which is coming to dominate the Scottish housing scene. That problem is reflected in the emphasis placed in the Bill on the provision for what has now commonly become known as "overspill." In this Bill, we are providing a specially favourable rate of overspill subsidy and a new code of procedure for dealing with this problem.
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  Congestion in Glasgow itself is without parallel in the United Kingdom: 700,000 people are living within three square miles of the centre of that great city, at an average density of 400 persons per acre; indeed, in the real black spots, the densities are even higher. In one particular area, 12,000 people are huddled together in tenement blocks covering no more than 18 acres—a miniature town with twice the population of Oban, but occupying only one-fiftieth of the area.
  Within this densely populated area the present housing standards were, and still are, unbelievably low. Many of these houses are beyond repair. The provisions of Clauses 6 to 8 of the Rent Bill, now in Committee, cannot in most cases apply to them. There is no real answer in the long run but to remove these houses and build modern ones. I was glad to approve the Gorbals Redevelopment Plan as the first major move towards that end, and, in spite of the overspill complication, we must all welcome and applaud that action of the Glasgow Corporation.
  Nor are sub-standard houses the only problem. Of the 100,000 families on the waiting list for houses in the City of Glasgow, 43,000 are married couples, many with young children, who have no homes of their own and are living in rooms or with relatives.
  In its attack on these problems, Glasgow Corporation has built over 40,000 houses since the war. Most of these are in large new schemes on the outer fringes of the city, many of them of new town proportions. But now, in two more years, virtually all vacant land in the city will have been exhausted and there will be practically no new sites left within the present city boundaries.
  In 1948, the Government of the day embarked upon the development of a new town at East Kilbride, primarily intended to relieve Glasgow's needs; and I am glad to say that splendid progress has been made with this project in recent years.
  Mr. James McInnes: Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that East Kilbride was designed to meet Glasgow's needs? If so, can he explain why only 1,500 of Glasgow's citizens are there now, after ten years?
  Mr. Maclay: What I said was that East Kilbride was primarily intended to relieve Glasgow's needs, yes. I am not quite clear on the point the hon. Gentleman is making, but already about 5,000 houses have been completed.
  Mr. McInnes: But not for Glasgow.
  Mr. Maclay: We hope that that will develop, if it is not happening in that way now.
  Last year, the present Government embarked on another new town at Cumbernauld, and I am confident that before long this project also will make a major contribution towards meeting Glasgow's needs.
  These measures are not of themselves enough. My predecessor in office in 1953 asked the Clyde Valley Planning Advisory Committee to undertake a study of the Glasgow overspill problem as a matter of urgency, and to put forward recommendations for its solution. I should like to pay a tribute to this Committee's work. The 18 local authorities represented on it have co-operated together with great good will, and I believe that no other joint planning body of this kind in the country has such positive results to show.
  The Committee has recommended that a number of areas round Glasgow are physically suitable for development to cater for Glasgow overspill. At my predecessor's suggestion, negotiations are now going on between the Glasgow Corporation and the authorities of those areas to explore in a practical way what might be achieved.
  There should be no doubt in anybody's mind that an enormous task lies ahead. Our immediate aim, in the next few years, is to keep the annual output of houses for Glasgow tenants up to its present 5,000 level in spite of the impending exhaustion of sites within the city. In the long term, at least 300,000 people will ultimately have to move out to new areas from Glasgow alone. Such a massive operation cannot be achieved without the closest co-operation between the local authorities and the Government, and an entirely new field of inter-authority partnership is being opened up by this problem and by the measures for dealing with it contained in the present Bill.
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  Against that background, I now turn to the provisions of the Bill. It is in two main parts. The first gives effect to the revised rates of subsidy for new houses built by local authorities as announced by my predecessor on 31st July last. The second contains provisions, chiefly relating to matters of administrative machinery, for dealing with the overspill problem. I should, in passing, perhaps make it clear that the grants for which the Bill provides, in both Part I and Part II, will not be caught up in the proposed new general grant which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government outlined in his statement on 12th February.
  Hon. Members will be familiar with the new subsidy proposals embodied in Part I of the Bill, but I should like to refer to them briefly and to try to clarify one or two points on which there has been some misunderstanding.
  In the first place, I should remind the House of the proposed new rates, which will apply to houses covered by tenders received on or after 1st August, 1956. The Bill makes provision for a basic subsidy of £24 a house for sixty years. This will be available for all houses built to meet approved needs. By this are meant houses provided to rehouse people living in unfit or overcrowded houses or to house those who are sharing houses and need homes of their own, and those who need houses on grounds of ill-health or disability. I am, of course, prepared to consider any other category of genuine housing need that may be put to me by a local authority.
  Then there are the special needs for which higher rates of subsidy will be payable. As I have indicated, we consider that the most urgent and pressing of these is overspill, for which the subsidy will be £42 a year. Houses provided to meet the urgent needs of incoming industry will, in approved cases, attract a subsidy of £30. There will also be a special subsidy for houses in the form of high flats, calculated on the basis that the Exchequer will bear two-thirds of the additional tender cost over that of ordinary houses. Houses built by local authorities in remote areas or for the agricultural population will continue to attract the existing supplement.
  These new subsidy rates were determined in the light of the facts brought

  43
  out in the Report on Housing Subsidies in Scotland by a Working Party of officials appointed by the local authority associations and by my predecessor, a report that was published at the end of July. This Report does not, of course, commit the local authority associations in any way, but the plain facts set out in it must be reckoned with.
  The Government's approach is based on two quite simple principles; first, that subsidies should not be given to those who do not need them; and, secondly, that no one in genuine need of a house should be asked to pay more rent than he can reasonably afford. With these fundamental points in mind my predecessor came to the conclusion—and I am in full agreement with him—that Exchequer subsidies for housing should no longer be related to the cost of building a new house, but that any subsidy that the local authorities receive in future should be regarded as a further contribution towards the available pool of Exchequer subsidies.
  The great bulk of local authority houses were built when costs were much lower than they are today, and the annual charges payable on these houses are small in comparison with the annual charges on new houses. At the same time, wages and incomes have risen, and it is hardly reasonable that the tenant of a pre-war local authority house should continue to pay the very low rent that was thought appropriate before the war.
  It may be said that, even with the previous rate of subsidy, local authorities have failed to balance their housing accounts. That is true. Many local authorities have followed a policy of charging extremely low rents and balancing their books at the expense of the general body of ratepayers by increasing the rates. That has been the position for many years.
  The average net rent—exclusive of all rates—at the present time is £15 10s. With the rates of Exchequer subsidy now being paid, however, plus a contribution from the rates of one-third of that subsidy, local authorities could balance their housing accounts by charging a rent of £34 on their existing houses. With the proposed new subsidies, the average rent necessary to square the accounts would be, not £34, but a slightly higher figure
  44
  each year as new houses are built, up to about £38 or £39 in three or four years' time. The matter is, of course, in the hands of the local authorities—and of the local electors.
  Local authorities, under this Bill, will no longer be under obligation to pay a fixed amount per house from the rates, since the statutory rate contribution is abolished by Clause 5, so the authorities will be free to decide themselves how much of their housing expenditure is to be met by the tenants by way of rent and how much by the ratepayers by way of the housing rate.
  That average rent levels in Scotland are at present unreasonably low does not, I think, need much argument, since the facts are clearly set out in the Report of the Working Party. The low average level of net rents has no doubt hitherto been masked by the inclusion of owners' rates in rent, but this will be altered at May next under the Valuation and Rating Act. On the basis of the 1954–55 figures quoted by the Working Party it can fairly be said that while the average local authority tenant in Scotland pays more in rates than the English council tenant, he pays in rent and rates together substantially less than the English tenant.
  I have explained these considerations at some length because there has been a good deal of misunderstanding about the basis of the new subsidy levels. These are framed on the assumption that the net rents of local authority houses in Scotland will, over the next few years, rise to an average of £39 a year or 15s. a week on all existing houses.
  This does not seem unreasonable against the background of the facts about earnings brought out in the Working Party's Report. I should add that there are two or more earners in at least two houses out of five. Of course, there are many families with incomes under average, but in the case of any individual family hardship can be avoided by a scheme of rent rebates.
  It is the Government's view, in the light of the considerations I have mentioned, that the subsidies provided in the Bill will enable most local authorities that are still faced with an urgent housing task to go ahead at least until 1961 without financial difficulty. There will be exceptions, and if, in fact, an authority

  45
  is able to show that it is faced with an urgent task that it is not in a financial position to discharge, then I am ready to consider authorising the Scottish Special Housing Association, within the limits of its annual programme, to assist the authority. This applies to building for overspill, as well as to building for approved general needs. As hon. Members will have seen, the basis of operations of the Association is restated in Clause 23 of the Bill with this possibility in mind.
  I am well aware that since my right hon. Friend made his statement at the end of July there has been a rise in interest rates and also some increase in the cost of new houses. I am, however, convinced that these factors do not invalidate the new approach to housing finance that underlies the subsidy proposals embodied in the Bill, an approach that the Government firmly believe brings into the finance of housing the degree of realism that the present situation requires.
  Hon. Members will have noted that the Public Works Loan Board rate for loans to local authorities dropped on Saturday from 5¾ per cent. to 5½ per cent.
  Mr. James H. Hoy: How does that compare with 1951?
  Mr. Maclay: I have not got the figure here, but it is a drop of per cent., which is a good thing. It is a move in the right direction.
  We are not saying that the individual tenant must pay more rent than he can reasonably afford. What we are saying is that there must be some limit to the burden falling on the taxpayer and the ratepayer and that this can be achieved by a more realistic rent policy that has regard, among other factors, to the revised rates of subsidy that we are proposing.
  Of course, Mr. Speaker, it is inevitable that there should be protests when subsidy reductions are proposed, but I am bound to say that many of the protests that I have already had seem to ignore the basic point that the local authorities have at their disposal a large pool of Exchequer subsidies on their existing houses built at a time when costs and interest rates were much lower than they are at present. I hope that what I have said will help to remove misunderstand-
  46
  ing, but my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State will be ready to deal with this and other aspects further in replying to the debate.
  I turn now to the second part of the Bill, which seeks to establish an administrative and financial basis on which local authorities can deal with the vast and complicated problem of overspill. That problem is how to provide for the excess population that cannot be rehoused on the spot, when overcrowded central areas are redeveloped in line with modern standards. So long as this excess can be rehoused within the boundaries of the same housing authority, existing administrative and financial arrangements are suitable enough. When the excess cannot be rehoused in this way, however, and must go from the district of the "exporting" authority to the district of some "receiving" authority, there emerges an overspill problem of the kind with which Part II of the Bill seeks to deal.
  Overspill houses can, with the help of the Bill, be provided in three different ways. The first in logical sequence, although perhaps the one least likely to be of practical value, is for the exporting authority itself to use the powers it already possesses under the housing Acts to build houses in the district of a receiving authority. Such houses can attract the overspill rate of Exchequer subsidy of £42 a year and this would be forthcoming for a development of really substantial size that was clearly a separate community quite detached from the built-up district of the exporting authority. But operations of this kind by one authority in the district of another give rise to a good deal of difficulty, and we should be unwise to expect too much to be done in this way.
  Accordingly, the Bill opens up two further ways in which overspill houses can be provided. The first is by a receiving authority acting under an overspill agreement made with an exporting authority, which can in this way discharge its Housing Act duty to provide for its own people. Such agreements can also be made under the Bill between an exporting authority and a new town corporation.
  The essential features of overspill agreements are dealt with in Clause 9 of the Bill. The receiving authority must get a

  47
  payment for each house of at least £14 a year for at least ten years from the exporting authority; this would be in addition to the Exchequer subsidy of £42 a year. The receiving authority would be obliged to let the appropriate number of houses to tenants approved by the exporting authority, who would almost always be tenants coming from the district of that authority.
  The precise means by which tenants would be selected for the overspill houses would be a matter of arrangement between the exporting and receiving authorities, the receiving authority, of course, not being obliged to accept any particular tenant nominated by an exporting authority. Except where the overspill houses form part of what is no more than a dormitory development, it will clearly be important that the selection of tenants should take into account the employment opportunities in the district of the new development as well as individual housing needs in the exporting area, in order that the tenants of the overspill houses can become part of a self-contained community.
  The third method of providing houses for overspill is through the medium of the Scottish Special Housing Association. It is not the Government's intention that the Association should embark on an extensive new programme of overspill housing, but rather that overspill needs should be given a prominent place in determining where houses should be built by the Association in carrying out a programme on about its present scale. The broad purpose of the Association's activities is to help authorities whose housing needs are particularly great in relation to their resources.
  Accordingly, receiving areas for overspill building by the Association will be selected in the light of the financial situation of the receiving authorities concerned. It is not intended that the Association should take over the whole job of overspill building in any particular area. It will be a standard condition that the receiving authority will build a number of overspill houses at least equal to the number provided by the Association.
  Neither the exporting authority nor the receiving authority will have to pay towards overspill houses built by the Association. The selection of tenants for
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  them will be regulated by arrangement between the Association and the exporting authority on the same lines as the arrangement between the receiving authority and the exporting authority. [Interruption.] I think that that is fairly clear, but if there is any question, my hon. Friend will deal with it later.
  There will obviously have to be co-operation between the receiving authority and the Association, so as to secure that all the overspill houses, by whichever agency they are provided, will be used to best advantage.
  So much for the provision of overspill houses. There may be cases where quite substantial numbers of houses can be provided by way of dormitory development, without any great need for new community services or new industrial developments. In those cases, any one of the methods I have already described may be sufficient to achieve the purpose in view.
  Commonly, however, there will be a need to do more than this, to provide not only houses but also new services, especially perhaps water supply and sewerage services, and, in addition, to stimulate the provision of additional employment for the tenants of the overspill houses. To this end, Clause 10 of the Bill provides a procedure by way of a town development scheme. This procedure can be invoked by any receiving authority, no matter which way the overspill houses themselves are being provided.
  The first purpose of a town development scheme is to rearrange the powers and duties of the local authorities likely to be concerned, so that the provision of houses and public services and other essential facilities can be secured as efficiently and as economically as possible. Clauses 11 and 12, relating to water and sewerage services, and Clause 13, relating to land transactions, are the relevant Clauses.
  The other purpose of a town development scheme is to provide a means whereby Exchequer grant can be made available in respect of certain classes of expenditure incurred by a receiving authority. The acquisition of land, and the installation of main water supply and sewerage services, represent the principal expenditure of a capital nature which a

  49
  receiving authority has to incur in advance of the construction of overspill houses and the receipt of rates from these houses. Accordingly, these are the items which Clause 14 of the Bill selects for the purpose of Exchequer grant.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves Clause 14, with which I think he is dealing now, will he say why the aid which that Clause envisages is to be provided under regulations, rather than by putting it explicitly and frankly in the Bill?
  Mr. Maclay: I think that will be dealt with before I finish what I have to say, but I do not want to get my speech out of sequence. I am coming to that next.
  The Clause leaves the precise basis of grant to be laid down in regulations made hereafter, which seems to be very reasonable.
  Mr. William Ross: Surely the Secretary of State can tell us what is in his mind in regard to the contribution from the Exchequer? How otherwise can we judge the efficacy of the Bill?
  Mr. Maclay: If the hon. Gentleman will wait a bit, I will deal with the point, but hon. Gentlemen really are going on a bit ahead. After all, this is a complicated Bill.
  Mr. Thomas Steele: Surely the Secretary of State will be able to tell us whether he is to use the Distribution of Industry Act to enable local authorities to get finance for the development of sewerage and water services and all these other things?
  Mr. Maclay: I believe that if hon. Members will wait until I get a bit further, they will see that their points will have been covered in my speech. It would be rather unwise, in a Bill of this complexity, as I have learned from experience, to start dotting about all over it in the middle of a speech.
  Mr. Hector Hughes Mr. Hector Hughes rose—
  Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray: On a point of order. Would it not be much more convenient if my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State were allowed to make his speech without interruption?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not strictly a point of order. If the right hon. Gentleman gives way, another hon. Member is entitled to intervene, but as a matter of convenience to the House interruptions should be as few as possible.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I hope the Minister realises that it is very important that the local authorities should know where they stand under the Bill. My question is: why is not the aid which is envisaged in Clause 14 put frankly into the Bill, instead of being provided for by means of regulations? Does not the Minister realise that this will gravely embarrass the local authorities?
  Mr. Maclay: It will not. This has been very carefully thought out to try to cover the main points. It would be very foolish to approach this kind of speech without the greatest care in building up the various points, which concern hon. Members and local authorities; but if the hon. and learned Gentleman will wait a bit I think he will find that most of the things which he has in mind are being dealt with.
  I said before that there will be full consultation with the local authority associations before the regulations are made, but the House will wish to know, at this stage, the kind of arrangement we have in view. This arrangement, I may say, has already been proposed to the Scottish local authority associations and I gather that the underlying principle has commended itself to them—only the underlying principle; there will have to be more consultations.
  The financially awkward period for a receiving authority is the first few years, when there is little new income in the shape of rates levied on new valuation created in the course of the development. Accordingly, we think it right to adjust the grant in such a way that the maximum relief is given at this stage, rather than later on when the overspill development will represent a considerable source of revenue, perhaps even in excess of the continuing expenditure.
  We propose to do this by drawing up a kind of income and expenditure account year by year for each overspill development. The intention is that the Exchequer should contribute 75 per cent.

  51
  of the resulting deficit year by year, leaving the balance of 25 per cent. to be met by the receiving authority, less any contribution the exporting authority may have bound themselves to make under the overspill agreement.
  There remains the problem of securing that there is enough employment near at hand for overspill population not housed in a purely dormitory development. Our view is that, for the most part, the necessary additional industry should come from the exporting area along with the overspill population. Here I use the term "industry" to include commercial and other office employment.
  My noble Friend the Minister of State has very recently discussed this with Glasgow Corporation, which, I am glad to say, is thinking along the same lines. Glasgow has an immense programme of clearance and redevelopment on its hands, and in the course of these operations it is inevitable that a considerable volume of industry will be displaced. Some of it cannot move far away, for it is too closely linked with shipbuilding and other heavy immovable activities.
  But we have made a study, with the help of the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Labour, and we have come to the conclusion that a great deal of the industry that will be displaced will be of a kind that can quite well operate at a distance from Glasgow. In making our plans for overspill we must do all we can to cater for the resettlement of this industry in the overspill reception areas.
  This Bill helps in three ways. The first is Clause 17, relating to an exporting authority that has incurred an obligation in connection with the rehousing of industry displaced in the course of redevelopment. This clause will enable the exporting authority to discharge that obligation by arranging for the displaced industry to be offered facilities in or near an overspill development.
  Then, as regards the provision of industrial sites, a receiving authority operating a town development scheme will have power to include industrial needs when acquiring land, in undertaking the preliminary development of that land, and subsequently disposing of it by lease, feu, or sale as may be appropriate. Any charges falling upon the receiving authority in the course of such operations,
  52
  from loan charges relating to the acquisition of land for industry and to work done upon it, will be one of the elements attracting town development grant under Clause 14 of the Bill.
  Thirdly, Clause 25 of the Bill enables the receiving authority itself to construct factory premises for letting or sale in all suitable cases and not—as at present—only outside the scheduled Development Areas. The Secretary of State's approval will be needed to operations of this kind, and I should not wish hon. Members to look on this as a means of subsidising industry; but even the availability of premises at an economic rent may be of considerable advantage to an industrialist who might not be in a position conveniently to provide the whole capital himself.
  Of course, the financial ability of industry displaced in the course of redevelopment to re-establish itself elsewhere is a vital point in the whole process I have been describing. This, again, is something that has been very carefully studied in relation to the Glasgow problem. I do not want to be over-optimistic about this, but the conclusions that we have reached after consultation with the Inland Revenue Valuation Department do suggest that the statutory compensation payable for displacement will, in a considerable proportion of cases, go a long way to provide funds needed for re-establishment.
  For some time already there has been a perceptible movement of industry away from Glasgow, stimulated by the fact that labour requirements are sometimes easier to meet in new areas rather than in the city itself. Transfer of overspill population will add to this advantage, and I am very hopeful that a combined operation, led by the Corporation of Glasgow, can result in a satisfactory start being made on the solution of this difficult problem.
  An essential factor for success will be close consultation between the Corporation and industrialists in the course of formulating the city's redevelopment proposals, so as to ensure that the longest possible notice is given to enterprises that will be displaced, with a full explanation of the facilities available for re-establishment as part of the overspill operation.

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  I have already detained the House for quite a long time and I do not propose to discuss Part III of the Bill in any detail. What we have done, as I have said earlier, in this part is to take this opportunity to clear up a number of outstanding administrative difficulties that have come to light in the housing Acts and to deal with certain aspects of the Scottish Special Housing Association.
  I would only mention Clause 22, the provisions of which I sincerely hope will help local authorities to overcome some of the difficulties which I know have been encountered, for example in dealing with gap sites or abandoned properties. This is a form of rebuilding which I have always wanted to see encouraged, which in fact must be encouraged, if we are to minimise the sprawl of building over good agricultural land and—what is equally important—if we are to retain as much as possible of the feeling of community which is so important to civic pride and the good conduct of local affairs.
  Obviously, I have only been able to cover a certain amount of the ground, but my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary will, I know, deal faithfully with other points which may arise when he winds up the debate.
  In conclusion, I would say this. No Member of Parliament could possibly have any doubt about the supreme importance of the human problem which decent housing presents. Certainly, no one who has spent, as I have, a good part of his life moving about Glasgow and the industrial Clyde Valley could fail to wish to do what lies in his power to contribute to the wise and lasting solution of the housing problem. This Bill, I believe, makes an important contribution, and I commend it to the House.
  4.17 p.m.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: The Secretary of State has in accordance with custom, tried to elucidate what, in his view and the view of the Government, the Bill means. If I might translate it into common parlance, this is a Bill to raise rents. That is all that it means. It instructs or stimulates local authorities to raise rents.
  The right hon. Gentleman has used a common phrase to justify this, that subsidies should not be given to people who
  54
  do not need them. He and his Government will get into great difficulty if they apply that principle all round. These subsidies were never given as a charity. When the right hon. Gentleman talks about people who do not need them, he must remember that these are the people who pay the taxes; and the more they do not need the subsidies, the more they pay in taxes.
  My hon. Friends and I took the view that if a person had a high income, and paid a high rate towards the subsidies, he was entitled to benefit from the subsidies just as a person who did not pay anything. This story about people getting subsidies when they do not need them contains a great deal of nonsense. It is simply a cover-up for having another dust at the local authorities.
  We do not attempt to justify all the extremes of rents which exist among different local authorities. They may not be justifiable, but they can be explained. Some local authorities take the view that, since people living in old property do not make a proper contribution to the rates because of the low rents on that property, there is no reason why people who pay the higher rents on local authority houses should also pay a very much higher contribution to the rates. Consequently, within their own area they try to obtain a measure of justice by spreading out the cost and balancing it by putting more on the rates and less on the rents.
  I agree that that causes anomalies as between authorities. A county with a great deal of pre-war property has a great cushion for the purpose of spreading the burden, but a place like Clydebank, where all the old houses were blown to bits, has no such cushion and cannot follow that practice in trying to be fair. The whole thing depends on the composition of the local authority.
  On the other hand, councils have tried to balance their burdens by having low rents and high rates, and in other cases they have tried to spread the burden on the basis of high rents and adequate rates. To force uniformity in rents on local authorities will, curiously enough, create injustices within a given rating area. I cannot justify the present situation where a miner in Dollar has to pay £41 in rent and, if he moves elsewhere, has his rent go down to £17. That is one of the difficulties of getting mobility among miners

  55
  and it is one of the anomalies in rating. In another area the figure is as low as £16 16s. 5d.
  The fact is that houses have to be paid for. We think that there is no more worthwhile expenditure out of the family income than that on a good home. The millions who will never get a good modern house will be willing to tell those who do have one how worthwhile it is and how fortunate they are to be in one. Nevertheless, the policy of building houses is a matter not of charity, but of public health. It is a department of health. When we talk about the cost of subsidies, we must remember that the cost of sickness before the First World War was much greater than what we have spent on subsidies.
  We used to spend £360 million a year on preventable sickness. One of the ways of avoiding that expenditure is to make it possible for people to live in homes with a healthy environment, where children can be brought up without contracting diseases before they are five years of age, which will make them a liability on the community for the rest of their lives, as used to be the case. If we can shut down hospitals, we will save far more than the cost of the hospitals. The Bill represents unnecessary meanness on the part of the Government and a policy which should not be developed very much further.
  It was recognised from 1919 onwards that there was no possibility of houses being built by private enterprise to form a healthy community. It was realised that this was a matter of public responsibility and that the houses should be allocated not on an income basis, but on need, on the needs of health, of the family and of the community. The cost of houses is divided among the State, the council and the tenant. I agree that there will be no enthusiasm by any one of the parties to raise its contribution to save the others. The argument among local authorities, tenants and the State, has gone on and will go on as long as housing costs are shared among them.
  The purpose of the Bill is to make local authorities raise rents. What it will do is to stop them building houses and, as a matter of fact, it has already had that effect. Local authorities are beginning to slow down the building of necessary houses and will do so more and more.
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  We are told that local authorities have a big housing pool over which these increases could be spread, but local authorities will ask how much they will lose if they continue building at the present rate, and how much they will save if they do not build any more.
  That acts as a deterrent, because in the past subsidies have been a bribe, as it were, to build houses. When subsidies are removed, the inducement is removed and there is, consequently, a big drop in the number of houses built by local authorities. Some local authorities have already stopped and some time we might be told about that. We opposed the Rating and Valuation (Scotland) Measure on the ground that the Government did not "come clean" and tell the House their plans as a whole. This Bill is another instalment of what appears to be "passing the buck" to the local authorities. We demanded that there should be a comprehensive review of the relationships between local and Government finance as a combined operation. Instead, we have had a campaign of infiltration into local authority defences.
  The major success of the Government in getting behind local authority defences has been the abolition of landlords' rates. From the tenants' point of view, landlords' rates were a tripwire which sounded the alarm, because whenever anyone attempted to touch the rates, when the landlords were paying them, there was a squeal, because the landlords were organised. That reminds me of the story of the young laird who was driving along a country road in his gig and having a great deal of fun with his whip, whipping at the cows as he passed. His chum said, "There is a wasps' nest; have a go at it" and the young laird said, "No fear; they are organised." The landlords were the wasps and now that the Government have got rid of the wasps the infiltration will continue.
  The Government have divided the tenants and conquered them. They have given something to one set of tenants and taken it from the others. In time, the tenants will awaken to find that they have lost on the deal. The tenants think that they will get something on the swings when they lose on the roundabouts, but in the long run the Government will get the best of the tenants, because their defences are down.

  57
  I object to this Trojan horse method of getting these things into Scottish legislation on the basis of an English Bill. If it is a nasty piece of work, it is covered by sending it upstairs, and 90 per cent. of Scottish Members do not take part. One of the purposes of the House of Commons is that the Opposition should criticise and expose what the Government are proposing.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. J. Nixon Browne): This Bill is not quite so nasty?
  Mr. Woodburn: Not quite so nasty. The one upstairs is the main attack. This is only a satellite. This is a graduated and cumulative process and we do not know what the end will be.
  The other day a considerable amount of apprehension was caused by the announcement of the Minister of Housing and Local Government. It was a further attack on local authorities which, to preserve their independence, will have to pay more. The theory may be all right, but the practice may cover much more than is anticipated.
  We hope that this Trojan horse method will not be continued in the next step, the reconstruction of local authority finance, and that Scottish Labour Members will not be disfranchised by having the legislation put through in an English Bill to be considered in a United Kingdom Committee upstairs, with only eight Scottish Members present. I warn the Secretary of State that if that happens the legislation will not pass even as smoothly as the Rent Bill, because there will have to come a time when the Scots will stop any further Trojan horse legislation in Scotland.
  Major Sir Guy Lloyd: I was very interested in the right hon. Gentleman's simile of a Trojan horse. I can see the point he is trying to make, but I cannot see how it has anything to do with a Trojan horse.
  Mr. Woodburn: The Trojan horse was made of wood and that may have some connection with the hon. Member if he cannot see the point. If one gets something through under another Bill, that is what is usually called a Trojan horse method. The hon. Member's classical knowledge is perhaps better than mine, so I may be mistaken.
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  We are very apprehensive about this and feel that we are witnessing a gradual, cumulative attack on local authority finances. We want to know where we are going. It is almost impossible to discuss the financial implications of the cuts in subsidies without a complicated unravelling of the whole tangled skein of housing finance. I do not blame the Secretary of State for not being able to answer some of the questions, because once he enters upon the topic of subsidies and rates of interest I am sure that after a few minutes he will not have the slightest idea of where he is.
  The whole history of subsidies is about as consistent as the fluctuations of a weather cock. If anybody can make head or tail of the fluctuations of subsidies since 1919 he is a better man than I am, and perhaps a better man than anyone sitting on these benches.
  Let me give an example. The Chancellor of the Exchequer starts out to restrain spending. To do so, he raises the Bank Rate and sends up costs. At that time, the landlords were paying rates and whenever these costs were going to raise the rates up went a squeal and along came the Government and raised the subsidies to compensate for the raising of the Bank Rate. That happened only the first time. The next time the Bank Rate went up, a different principle was followed. There was no increase of the subsidies, so rather different principles had to be applied.
  Then we have the ups and downs of subsidies and the ups and down of interest rates and there are hardly two sets of houses being built by a local authority on which the same interest is being paid. I do not know what are the clerical implications of this in offices, but it must be an awful business trying to maintain all these public loans on different rates of interest.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Leith (Mr. Hoy) has stated that to cover the repayment cost on a £1,700 house £1,976 was required before the raising of interest rates and £4,122 afterwards, an increase of 15s. per week. Some of the so-called increase on subsidies was not for the house at all, but to pay the increased interest that the Government were paying to the moneylenders for the money. The more I look at this, the more I think that

  59
  it is the economics of a madhouse. The sooner someone in the Government gets down to getting some sense into all this housing finance and local government finance, the better.
  The local authorities are now faced with Acts and Bills to recondition slums, to repair and modernise good property, to abolish landlords' rates, to establish notional rents, to supervise rent repairs increases, to balance rent and rates, and all this is going on under different financial arrangements for each. The thing is just chaotic.
  We are now threatened with another upheaval which is not a comprehensive reorganisation, but only another still larger addition to the patchwork quilt of local government finance. We propose today to register our vote against this part of the Bill by voting against the Government for not producing a comprehensive picture of what the eventual purpose is in all the changes in these local government financial arrangements.
  The Secretary of State devoted a considerable amount of time to the proposals for town development. We are, naturally, not opposing anything that makes a contribution to this vast overspill population of Glasgow. Glasgow is bursting at the seams in the matter of its population, and something has to be done. But we must confess that it is rather over-optimistic to think that there will be any satisfactory solution to an overspill of 300,000 people merely from town development schemes. I must give my own frank opinion. While Clydeside is cluttered up far too intensely, this merely spreading further over the Clyde area will not improve matters but hasten the day when there will not be any good agricultural land in the West of Scotland.
  I held an inquiry at the time of the proposal for the new town of Houston, when one of the reasons given for proposing that that area should be used was that there was nowhere else to go in that area without moving on to the last vestige of decent agricultural land there.
  Mr. Maclay: Houston has some good land, too.
  Mr. Woodburn: It was not first-class, but it was the only place where they were
  60
  not encroaching on about the best piece of land that remained in that area.
  The Government must consider whether they will not do something more than just spread people out over the Clydeside. They must consider whether a wider solution is not possible. Here, I want to say that all the Government Departments have to co-operate. It is no good the Department of Health trying to deal with this solely as a problem of housing. The Tight hon. Gentleman told us today that the Government had been considering the question of industry. The housing of a community is no use unless it has an industrial stomach. A sort of residential area outside Glasgow will not be the solution of the problem. If we are to rehouse people it seems to me that we have to start at the other end and see that the work goes there, so that the people can live.
  The possibilities in this direction seem to me to be three: we can move existing industry; we can foster new industry; or we can expand locally existing industries so as to provide work for the incoming population. In the case of the first two, the Government must do more than is proposed even in this Bill. It may be that they will have to build factories or encourage the local authority to build factories in order to induce people to go there. Even the Development Area arrangements are not necessarily sufficient to bring the factories to the area.
  I can speak from experience of my own constituency, where there has been a Development Area ever since the war. In one part of that area not one factory has been built, despite all the efforts of the Board of Trade or anyone else. It may be that the proper way is for the Government to decide what factories shall be built in order to induce industries to go there, but if a great deal of expenditure is to be placed on the industries, that will be a deterrent. I hope that it will be not just a matter of saying, "We will give them grants and wait for something to turn up."
  There must be positive action and comprehensive planning. We believe that the best way to do that is to have new towns—that new towns are a better way of approaching this problem than by farming it out on the existing terms, although that may not be wrong. I do not

  61
  see why we should not go as far as Falkirk. Falkirk is not expanding. In a recent investigation, when a Committee of this House sat in judgment on an application for the development of Falkirk, I remember that it was reported that the Falkirk population was not increasing at all. Though this area may not have an increasing population it may be a very good industrial area, where it is possible that industry in Falkirk and Grangemouth could be developed very quickly.
  I should like to ask the Minister to tell us what has been done about this. I understand that the Minister of State has been negotiating with local authorities for some months. If there had been any success, one would have thought that he would have told us something about it. Is this policy going to work? By this time he must have found out whether Kilmarnock and all the other towns are "going to play." My information is that they tend to think that the inducements are insufficient and the liabilities too great. They think that they may he crowded with population without any new industry. Fostering new industry can best be done by the policy, advocated by my hon. Friend, of building advance factories. Then we may attract new industries into an area as well as industries from Glasgow.
  I would recommend to the Secretary of State another policy. That is that local industries should get orders from the Government. The Government could do a great deal to stimulate employment by directing these orders on social grounds, and not just on the grounds of keeping as near London as possible. One of the difficulties of the Ministry of Supply is that most experts like to live at places from which it is convenient for their wives to travel to London. We could get rid of that difficulty by sending orders to local towns and stimulating the little industries in the smaller towns, so that they will develop and provide employment for more and more people. That is the way to attract people away from the big cities and to develop the smaller ones.
  For that reason, the Government must consider this problem not merely as a housing problem, but as a combined operation for getting communities established in a healthy way. We think that new towns are probably the best way to
  62
  do that, but, on the other hand, I agree that where small towns have already established a social life it is a great advantage if we can send industry to them. Hawick, Selkirk, and similar places, could do with a variety of industries. This policy has succeeded in Fraserburgh and Peterhead, where a small engineering industry is developing and gradually building up.
  During the war we sent an engineering industry to Brechin, which has taken root there. That was the Minister's old constituency and he knows about the development there and what a great success this industry has been. The right hon. Gentleman should follow that comprehensive policy so that these towns may develop and life can be taken into those areas in greater abundance.
  Mr. Maclay: I am interested in what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. If he thinks back, he will remember my arguing this when he was Secretary of State for Scotland.
  Mr. Woodburn: I practised it. No previous Secretary of State for Scotland has done more to stimulate industry to help itself than I did during my period of office. I do not often boast, but I challenge comparison with any Secretary of State on that point. The Scottish Council of Industry has repeatedly recommended this course. What we did not do was to take powers to force industry into an area. We allowed private enterprise to be induced to go, and the policy carried out by the Labour Government turned Dundee from a distressed area into a Development Area so that it is now one of the most progressive and successful areas of industry in the country.
  We have nothing of which to be ashamed. The late Sir Stafford Cripps did a great deal to take industry into Lanarkshire and elsewhere. Because he was very conscious of the needs of Scotland he used all his influence to build factories in that area. I say, therefore, that the Government should reconsider the question of building advance factories and planning where factories should be. They should instruct Government Departments to direct industry to go where it is socially desirable. This would not mean a great loss. There would be a far greater loss in leaving towns to decay than there would be as a result of the extra money which would have to be paid.

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  I ask the Joint Under-Secretary of State to tell us, when he replies to the debate, more about what will happen about assisting industries to move. Also, I ask the Secretary of State to tell us whether me Money Resolution is drawn sufficiently wide for us to move Amendments during the Committee stage if we find that necessary in order to help industry to move to these areas.
  Many of my hon. Friends will be dealing in detail with the points raised by the right hon. Gentleman, and during the Committee stage we shall examine many of the intricate aspects which he put before us. We must, however, vote against the Second Reading of the Bill to register our protest that the Government have not yet "come clean" about what they intend ultimately to do in making their inroads and attacks on local government finance.
  4.44 p.m.
  Major Sir Guy Lloyd: I differ very much from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) in so far as I welcome this Bill, and my only criticism of the Government is that it has not been produced before. There are many hundreds of thousands of people in Scotland who welcome the Bill, and I believe that the Opposition have been mistakenly flogging themselves into a fury, imagining that the overwhelming opinion of the people of Scotland is adverse to this Measure.
  If right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite believe that, I beg them to realise that they are mistaken. Of course, no one who has been subsidised likes to have his subsidy reduced. Doubtless we would all like to be subsidised, but, personally, I believe that subsidies have gone far enough and that the Government, throughout their period of office, have been showing that they think so too by adopting a policy of reducing subsidies.
  I suggest that some members of the Opposition who clamour for them, and who consider that to reduce or abolish them is a form of crime, should sometimes remember who pays the subsidies. There appears to be a theory that subsidies come out of a bottomless purse into which the Government alone can dip their
  64
  fingers, whereas it is the unfortunate taxpayers, representing every section of the community, who contribute to subsidies.
  Mr. Woodburn: If I may interrupt the hon. and gallant Gentleman, may I ask whether he would not agree that, ultimately, all these things come out of production? Also, is it not the case that the people who are drawing subsidies are those who help to produce the wealth from which they are drawn?
  Sir G. Lloyd: Ultimately, of course, subsidies come out of production and, therefore, they come out of the fruits of industry. If production is not the fruits of industry, what is production? [Laughter.] Nobody who understands economics would laugh at that statement. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who produces the fruits?"] If it is true that subsidies come out of the fruits of industry, we do not want to put too heavy a burden on industry in these days, because it is most important that industry should be as competitive as possible throughout the world, and it will not be easy to make it so.
  Therefore, if we can in any way lighten the burden upon the community, upon production, upon the taxpayer or upon the individual, why should we not do so? To listen to the right hon. Gentleman one would believe that he believes it to be a dreadful thing to reduce a subsidy, something of which any Government ought to be ashamed. I have quotations here with which I will not bore the House—
  Mr. Ross: The hon. and gallant Gentleman will.
  Sir G. Lloyd: No, I do not think so, because I will not give all the quotations. I will not distress hon. Gentlemen opposite by quoting at least fifteen Socialist speakers, including an ex-Secretary of State for Scotland, the late Joseph Westwood, who, during the passage of various subsidies, said in the House that they thought subsidies ought not to be high and that, when a subsidy was fixed, the first thing which should be done was to ascertain how soon it would be possible to reduce it.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite may be horrified to think that other Socialists believe it a good thing to reduce a subsidy. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I say that only

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  because, listening to the right hon. Gentleman with great respect, as we always do on this side of the House, he gave me the impression that he thought it was a very wrong thing to do, and he failed to mention that the money comes from the taxpayer.
  I welcome this Bill because I think that subsidies have been too high for too long. I am glad that they are to be reduced. They should have been reduced before. I believe that taxpayers will welcome this Bill, because they pay the subsidies.
  A great many people in Scotland will welcome it, too, because it gives opportunity to the local authorities to charge differential rents, which many of them hitherto have refused to do. Many of my constituents, and many others in Scotland, think that the Bill is a measure of social justice in so far as it will mitigate, to some extent, at any rate, their longstanding grievance that about two-thirds of Scotland's householders, as taxpayers and as ratepayers, have to subsidise in some way or another many council house tenants many of whom are much better off than many of them are themselves. They have long resented that.
  My right hon. Friend said just now something to the effect that subsidies would not be given to those who do not need them. My constituents and many others in Scotland would rather put it this way; that subsidised houses should not be let to those who do not need them. I emphatically declare that that is a piece of social justice, and anything contrary to that is not social justice.
  Many people in Scotland have long thought that council house tenants have had too low rents and that those rents ought to have been raised before, and they suspect—they may be wrong, they may be wicked, but some of them suspect—that one of the reasons why these rents have been kept too low is one not unconnected with politics. I have a feeling that votes, unpopularity, and considerations of that sort must have influenced decisions upon rents. At any rate, there are those who think so, and there are those who have long resented the fact that council houses in Scotland have been low-rented because local authorities have refused, year after year, to raise the rents.
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  In that they have been caught out. They are like the unwise virgins mentioned in the Bible. They are too late. Now they have to raise their rents to put their housing accounts on an economic basis, and they have to raise them higher than they would like. Had they raised them slowly and gradually, in a commonsense way, bringing them as nearly as they could to being economic rents, had they had regard to permissive Sections in Acts, which we know all about, had they taken those opportunities, had they charged those council house tenants who could well afford to pay them the full economic rents to their landlords, the councils, and had they tempered the wind to the shorn lambs, the tenants who could not afford them, had they followed that policy, which we on this side have advocated and pressed for a great many years, the rise in rents which may now be necessary would not have been anything like as great.
  Now, of course, they have to a large extent been caught out, and because of the lowering of the subsidy they have to raise rents to a level which some people may say is unfortunate, and I agree; but it need not have been so, had the councils followed a more sensible and less politically minded policy in years gone by.
  My constituents and many others in Scotland have for a long time been convinced that it is a most unfortunate thing that many local authorities, especially those powerfully influenced by Socialist politics, have refused to institute anything in the way of differential rents. It is really quite wrong that a wealthy man should continue to live in a subsidised house while a great many people who are, unfortunately, less well off than he should be compelled to pay in rates and taxes to keep him there.
  How anybody in the House can say that that is social justice, as some people have attempted to do, I really do not know. Many people in Scotland, at least so I think, believe that the Government are very wise and right to adopt this policy of lowering the subsidies, and they believe that high subsidies are not a very good thing, and that it would be a jolly good thing if they were reduced.
  I saw some eyebrows raised just now when I said that there are many Socialists who are or have been Members of this House who have said they wished to

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  lower subsidies whenever they could, and I will quote a few examples to substantiate my remark. Here is a statement by a former very dear friend of us all, a former Secretary of State for Scotland, the late Mr. Westwood. He said:
  "I wish to make it clear that the contributions now proposed—this applies to the rate contributions as well as to the Exchequer contributions—are maxima, and it is the intention of the Government that they shall be reduced at the earliest opportunity."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th March, 1946; Vol. 420, c. 1706.]
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Poplar (Mr. Key), who has been in the House a great many years, said this:
  "… high subsidies must not be an incentive to maintaining high costs, and, since we are determined that high costs shall be temporary, high subsidies must be temporary too."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th March, 1946; Vol. 420, c. 342.]
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop), formerly Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Local Government and Planning, said:
  "… we have never felt happy about the size of housing subsidies; hon. Members on all sides have very properly felt a real anxiety about the size of these subsidies. …"— [OFFICAL REPORT, 21st October, 1954; Vol. 531, c. 1444.]
  Here is one more, by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell):
  "I do not want to go on record as being in favour of high subsidies. I want to bring them down at the earliest practicable moment …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st October, 1954; Vol. 531, c. 1404.]
  If those views represented the views of a large number of Socialists then, do they represent the views of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite now? I shall be interested to learn as the debate goes on. If they do not, there is another large split in the Labour Party.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: The hon. and gallant Gentleman means a rent.
  Sir G. Lloyd: Now I come to the Bill itself. The suggestion which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirlingshire made in his speech was that Scotland has been badly treated and that Scotland has a grievance because of this Bill; but I have studied the Bill, too, and I contend that, by and large, Scotland has been favoured and that England may well have a grievance that we in Scotland
  68
  have been very much favoured by housing subsidies.
  Not only are our subsidies, generally speaking, higher than are the English subsidies, but the Government nave continued for many classes of housing and for many sections of the community subsidies which have been terminated altogether in England. So no one can suggest that Scotland has had a raw deal in that respect. The contrary is the case. We have continued subsidies, although at a reduced rate, for all the major housing needs in Scotland, including overcrowding, slum clearance, overspill, and all the extra new developments, with industrial building, and so on, as my right hon. Friend described in some detail in his speech.
  I should not think that the rent increases need be nearly so great or so frightening for all the tenants, although I repeat that they need not have been so great had many local authorities increased them slowly over the years instead of having now to jump them up and to take a big bite at the cherry. I am told that after, say, four years' time, if gradual increases were made, the average weekly increase in the rents of council houses in Scotland would be about 15s. That is really not so very terrible, although it is admittedly unfortunate.
  Let us compare that increase with earnings. At present, the average rent of council houses throughout Scotland is about 4½ per cent. of the average earnings of the tenants. Quite a lot; but in 1949 it was 6 per cent. and in 1938 10½ per cent. of earnings. If this 15s. increase is effected in four years' time the average rent will be only 7½ per cent. of average earnings, considerably less than it has been before. If we do away with owners' rates it will be only about 3 per cent., and even then we shall have a much lower average council house rent throughout Scotland than there is in England. There is not the fearful grievance hon. Gentlemen opposite are saying there is.
  Mr. McInnes: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman cite the authority for the figures that he has given the House?
  Sir G. Lloyd: I understand that they are calculated on the basis of earnings—
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: By whom?
  Sir G. Lloyd: —by the Department of Health. Is it denied that average earnings have gone up over these years? Of course they have, and in many cases there is more than one wage-earner in the house. Earnings have increased a great deal and rents have increased very little.
  Mr. Thomas Fraser: The hon. Member said that the rent at 15s. represented 7½ per cent. of earnings and that if owner's rates were deducted the figure came to 3 per cent., but the 7½ per cent. represents rent and the owner's rates are to be borne by the occupier on top of the rent.
  Sir G. Lloyd: It still represents only about 3 per cent. of the tenant's earnings.
  Mr. Fraser: It represents about 15 per cent. of the tenant's earnings.
  Sir G. Lloyd: If I am wrong I will stand corrected, but I do not think that anybody can deny that present rents represent a very substantially lower percentage of earnings than they did hitherto. In other words, the tenant can afford his rent better than he could hitherto, because his rent represents a lower proportion of his earnings.
  The right hon. Member for East Sterlingshire seemed at one time to deplore the Bill, but he said, in 1948:
  "I do not altogether blame local authorities"—
  for not providing better housing provision—
  "for this arises from a curious belief we seem to have in Scotland that it is a sin to pay rent."—
  The right hon. Gentleman seems to think also that it is a sin to lower subsidies. He added:
  "I have never been able to understand why we in Scotland are prepared to spend anything up to a pound a week on cigarettes, while we grudge paying a little more to buy house room for ourselves and our children."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Scottish Standing Committee, 7th July, 1948; c. 1322.]
  The right hon. Gentleman does not say that today and perhaps he has forgotten that he said it then.
  No one can deny that under the Bill even the new rents in Scotland will still be lower than the rents in England, and that increased earnings should enable the tenant to pay perfectly easily, or without much difficulty, especially when one remembers that in many cases there is
  70
  more than one earner in the household. I contend that lower rents mean higher rates. There is no doubt about that. Everybody is grousing about high rates.
  Mr. John Rankin: And high prices.
  Sir G. Lloyd: If rents had been put up over the years we should now have nothing like the existing high rates. There is no denying that that is true. Is it fair to the remainder of the ratepayers and the rest of the community that they should have to pay high rates simply because certain authorities refuse to raise rents, especially when it is shrewdly suspected that the main reason for that refusal is political?
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: Yes, high interest rates.
  Sir G. Lloyd: The Bill should help to provide new building, because if the differentials are properly allocated and if, as the Secretary of State suggested, the pool of subsidies is properly used by the local authorities, there should be a proper balance on the housing account, which would mean in many cases a margin available for the cost of building new houses.
  The case against the Bill is either grossly exaggerated, or is put forward mainly from prejudice. I am glad to see the Bill and that the Government have had the courage to produce it. To reduce subsidies, of course, is to lay oneself open to unpopularity, but the Government have the courage to do unpopular things because they know that they are right and fair.
  5.7 p.m.
  Mr. James McInnes: I listened with interest to the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East (Sir G. Lloyd) and to his vicious attacks on subsidies. He will find ample scope for making such vicious speeches if he attacks the agricultural subsidies, which are three times greater than the housing subsidies. Every man, woman and child in Scotland has to bear £6 per annum to meet the cost of agricultural subsidies alone. This is a typical Tory attack, because all Tory attacks on subsidies relate to rents and rates and matters of that kind.
  The hon. and gallant Member made no reference whatever to the fact that

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  average earnings in Scotland are 5 per cent. to 7 per cent. less than those in England and Wales. Nor did he deal with his own Government's activities bearing on the cost of housing. The annual cost of a house to a local authority has increased from £62 to £98 per annum, a difference of £36 every year for 60 years.
  Mr. T. Fraser: Those figures are a comparison of 1951 with 1955. The position is very much worse now. The figure of £98 quoted by my hon. Friend relates to the 1955 position of a house estimated to cost £1,714. Since then, interest rates and other costs have increased. Such a house now costs £1,774 and the £98 has become £109.
  Mr. McInnes: Yes, the figure to which I referred has increased to £109. If the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East wishes to make a comparison, he should make a true comparison.
  Much as I should like to continue my observations on Part I of the Bill, dealing with housing subsidies, I propose to confine myself to Part II. I was extremely disappointed with the handling of that part of the Bill by the Secretary of State. The right hon. Gentleman made absolutely no attempt to explain the full implications of Clauses 12, 13 and 14. Indeed, he made absolutely no effort to do so in response to an intervention by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes), who sought to elicit information about the financial arrangements under Clause 14. I suggest that neither the Secretary of State nor the Joint Under-Secretary could enlighten the House at the moment about the financial provisions of that Clause. I will give way immediately if either wishes to take advantage of the opportunity. I go further and say that there is no hon. Member opposite who could define the implications of the Clause.
  Part II of the Bill deals entirely with overspill. Where are Scotland's overspill problems? From inquiries which I have made, I have found that there is no such problem in Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Dundee, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Ayrshire or Greenock. The only area I know of where such a problem exists is in the City of Glasgow. This evening we are faced with a Bill the application of
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  which specifically provides for the problem which exists in the City of Glasgow. Glasgow has an overspill population of 300,000, almost as large as the overspill of London, which is 360,000. To provide for London's overspill no fewer than eight new towns have been built, and I understand that those towns have taken about 150,000 people into their areas.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland has been handling Glasgow's overspill problem since the latter part of 1952—for almost four years. I should like to know what has been the outcome of his deliberations and consultations with Glasgow Corporation and the Clyde Valley Regional Planning Committee. The only thing I can find that has eventuated from his discussions is one new town at Cumbernauld—a town designed to accommodate 50,000 people, of which it is estimated that 40,000 will come from Glasgow.
  I want to compare the financial arrangements of the eight towns provided for London with those of Cumbernauld. The hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East said that Scotland was being very generously treated by the Bill. Let us see whether that is so. Eight new towns have been provided to deal with London's overspill, and neither the London County Council nor any London borough has contributed a single penny towards their construction. But in respect of one new town to take Glasgow's overspill, Glasgow is faced with a crippling burden of £14 per year, for the next ten years, for every house to be built in that new town. That will be the situation, even under the terms of the Bill.
  Not only did the Secretary of State impose that intolerable burden upon the City of Glasgow; he wanted to be even more vicious by asking Glasgow to pay one-third of the total deficit of the new town, the Government one-third, and I believe that Dunbartonshire was to pay the other third. That is a crippling burden for the City of Glasgow, and I am justified in asking the Secretary of State why this discriminatory and outrageous arrangement is being foisted upon the city when London can have eight new towns in respect of which she does not have to pay a penny.
  The Government have decided that there will be no more new towns in Scotland. That statement was made by the

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  Minister of State and the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor. That is why we have the Bill. The Secretary of State obviously assumes that it will solve Glasgow's overspill problem. Does he really imagine that the Bill, providing as it does for the dispersal of Glasgow's overspill over a large part of other local authority areas, will solve the problem? Has the right hon. Gentleman even taken the opportunity to find out to what extent other local authorities are prepared or disposed to accept Glasgow's overspill, or to find out what has been the experience of English local authorities?
  In 1952 the Government passed the Town Development Act, applicable only to England, and I want to tell the right hon. Gentleman of the experience of some English local authorities with large overspill problems, in regard to that Act. London still has an overspill population of about 200,000; Birmingham, 150,000; Manchester. 200,000, and Liverpool, Sheffield and Leeds each have a somewhat similar problem. Under the Town Development Act Swindon has agreed to take about 18,000 people from London in the next ten years, and Bletchley hopes to accommodate 8,000 people in the next ten years. That is all that has happened under the Act, and the Bill before us is on very much the same pattern as that Act.
  London County Council negotiated with the local authorities of Ashford, Aylesbury, Basingstoke, Letchworth and Peterborough, each of which was quite prepared to accept some of the overspill, but only on condition that more generous grants were given. London County Council also negotiated with Bury St. Edmunds, Haverhill, Huntingdon and Thetford. In those cases negotiations have extended over four years but nothing has eventuated from them. London County Council also considered the question of overspilling into Kettering and Letchworth, but in those cases the proposal was turned down by the Minister of Housing and Local Government.
  Manchester City Corporation has been negotiating for the last two or three years with all its neighbouring authorities in Lancashire and it cannot get one authority, except Worsley, to agree to take anybody. That town has taken some of the overspill from Salford. Apart from that, not one authority is disposed to accept any of Manchester's overspill.
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  Although the Birmingham authority offered to pay to the receiving authority the local rate contribution, not one local authority in the Birmingham area is disposed to accept the overspill from that city. The net effect of the Town Development Act in England, covering London, Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds, has been that about 18,000 people have been taken out of the County of London.
  Despite that background, the Secretary of State for Scotland has the audacity at this stage to inflict a similar Measure on us in order to deal with Glasgow's overspill problem. It just will not work, and he knows it. It will not work because the position of Scottish local authorities is precisely the same as that of the English local authorities. The difficulty has been the inability of the exporting authorities to convince the receiving authorities of any advantages to be gained by accepting overspill population.
  In addition, there is the demand by the receiving authorities that if London, Birmingham, Manchester and similar places are going to overspill into their areas, they must make up their minds that as they overspill the population they shall also overspill the industry to employ that population. It is no use overspilling 100,000 people from the City of Glasgow into Lanarkshire or Renfrewshire and making no effort to send industry along with them. There is no proposal in the Bill to provide industry for those overspill populations in any of the receiving areas. Indeed, there is no encouragement and no attraction for the City of Glasgow to overpsill its industry.
  Another of the difficulties, and perhaps the most important one—certainly the one with which we are faced by the Bill—is that every one of the receiving authorities in England feels that schemes such as this involve some sort of undefined financial commitment. That is exactly the case in respect of Clause 14. I invite the Secretary of State and the Joint Under-Secretary of State to tell the House what precisely are the financial commitments of Clause 14.
  The Secretary of State has been in consultation with Glasgow Corporation for the last four years, and he has also been in consultation with the Clyde Valley Advisory Planning Committee. Indeed, he asked that body to deal with

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  the problem as a matter of urgency in 1953. That Committee initiated inquiries among authorities in the West of Scotland likely to be prepared to take Glasgow's overspill. Places like Milngavie, Kirkintilloch, Bishopbriggs, Chryston, Holytown, Tannockside, Kilmarnock, and other places in Ayrshire were consulted, but the Clyde Valley Advisory Planning Committee had to point out to the Secretary of State that the physical circumstances in Scotland and in the Clyde Valley area in particular were not nearly so advantageous, in the sense that there is no convenient cluster of sizeable towns available such as there is around the London area, although the problem is of roughly the same magnitude.
  The Committee recommended that a new town should be built at Houston, but that recommendation was turned down by the Secretary of State. Not only did he turn down the suggestion for a new town at Houston. There has developed recently, to put it mildly, considerable friction between the Clyde Valley Advisory Planning Committee and the Secretary of State. When one gets to know the facts and the difficulty, an astonishing state of affairs is revealed.
  I listened to the Secretary of State today making one of the most amazing statements that I have heard from any Secretary of State. He said that the new town of East Kilbride was designed to take Glasgow's overspill. Yet here I have his own document, issued on 19th December, 1955, which reveals that East Kilbride new town at that time contained 1,500 Glasgow families, and East Kilbride has been the goal for the past ten years. East Kilbride's population has increased by about 16,000. All that has happened in the last ten years in connection with the town which the Secretary of State alleges was designed to take Glasgow's overspill population is that 1,500 Glasgow families are located there.
  But what is this friction that has developed? Why all this procrastination? When I made inquiries I found that the Clyde Valley Advisory Planning Committee had indicated that Kilmarnock was prepared to take some of Glasgow's overspill population, that Hamilton might do so, that Milngavie might provide 400 houses, and that Kirkintilloch would provide about 1,000 houses, but despite the
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  inquiries initiated by the Clyde Valley body, the Secretary of State makes a public statement to the effect that Kilmarnock is to take 9,500, that Kirkintilloch is to take 10,200, that Milngavie is to take 8,300, and that Hamilton is to take 4,700. Yet not one of these towns knows anything about it. Indeed, Milngavie has made it clear that it is prepared to provide only 400 houses, and not 2,400 as was suggested by the Secretary of State.
  Even if we were to accept the figures which the Secretary of State now alleges can be accommodated in these other areas, we have 34,000 people still to put into East Kilbride. I do not know where or how it is to be done, but he says that another 34,000 people can still be put into East Kilbride. Some 40,000 are to go to Cumbernauld. That makes 74,000. Where are we to put the rest? The total is 300,000. I suggest that the only remedy, the only solution, is to build two additional new towns under the New Towns Act, one at Houston and another at Lugton or elsewhere. That would absorb about 100,000 of Glasgow's overspill and leave another 100,000 to be spread over all the other areas.
  I regard this Bill as simply a staging process. It is a delaying tactic; there is no doubt about that. If the Secretary of State were to designate a new town immediately we should commence work on it and get it organised and developed; but to deal with the problem by putting 2,000 here, 3,000 there, and 4,000 somewhere else, would require 60 or 70 different local authorities in the West of Scotland being prepared to take those numbers. That would be physically impossible. There is not that number of local authorities in the whole of the West, nor in the East of Scotland, but that is the problem we are faced with by the Bill.
  For one place to take so many and another place so many more is a proposal which just cannot work. The only solution lies in the provision of two additional new towns. Then the residue could be put into the different areas, as suggested in the letter from the Minister to Glasgow Corporation.
  I have spoken longer than I had intended to do, and I have not dealt with the financial provisions. I hope that the Joint Under-Secretary will take the

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  opportunity of replying to the many points which I have raised, and give us some clarification of the situation. I hope that he will not reiterate the statement made by the Secretary of State that there are to be no more new towns, Which I think is a foolish policy.
  5.32 p.m.
  Mr. John Henderson: I am sure the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) will not misunderstand if I do not follow his arguments about overspill—
  Mr. E. G. Willis: They were very good arguments.
  Mr. Henderson: —but I want to go back to the first part of the Bill and deal with the question of reductions in the housing subsidy. I wish also to refer to the remarks made in the early part of the speech of the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), who emphasised that essentials for the happiness of Scottish people were a good home and good health, and that good health was linked to a good home. We on this side of the House are in absolute agreement with those sentiments because from experience we know that, no matter how much may be paid out of the Health Service, the absolute necessity and foundation for happy and a healthy life is a good house. That is why the Tory Party set a target of 300,000 houses a year, which was far in excess of anything the Socialist Party did when it was in office. That target we achieved and so made an admirable contribution to the housing of the people. Consequently we did much to improve the health of the people.
  This Bill is another indication of the courage of the Government. In certain circles it is not popular because any thought of having to pay an increase in rent, or in any direction whatever, is never popular. Therefore, misunderstandings have arisen here and there. In making this proposal for a reduction of subsidy, the Government have carried out the same principles as before, namely, that subsidies should be given only to those in need. I think both sides of the House have accepted that principle for quite a number of years. The Minister indicated that the reduced basic subsidy for new houses of £24 a house would extend for sixty years. No objection can be taken
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  to that; it should be accepted by all. That will be a flat-rate subsidy and will take the place of the present three-tier subsidy for different houses.
  This is a reduced subsidy on new houses only. The subsidy on existing houses will continue, but that has been overlooked by hon. Members opposite. For houses needed to accommodate overspill population—a matter which has been touched upon by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central—there will be a special subsidy of £30—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—I am grateful for the correction. The subsidy will go up to £42 and for multistorey fiats, which naturally are more expensive, the Government will pay an additional subsidy to cover two-thirds of the amount of the tender cost of the houses at the site.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central devoted a lot of time to the overspill problem and it was interesting to listen to him, but I should have thought he might better have devoted some time to the necessity of clearing up the centre of the City of Glasgow, instead of sending people to far-off parts where roads are narrow, where there are no educational facilities, no public services, and where transport is in short supply. If we cleared up from Glasgow Green to Govan on one side of the River Clyde, and from Anderson on the other side through to the Stockwell, that would be a very excellent job. By putting up ten-storey or eight-storey buildings we could accommodate many people near to their jobs instead of sending them to far away parts outwith the city where transport is extremely costly. The Government have provided a very substantial subsidy for houses erected for the purpose of dealing with overspill.
  Mr. Rankin Mr. Rankin rose—
  Mr. Henderson: No, I am not going to give way. I am going to have my say and the hon. Member can speak later.
  The average council house in England and Wales has a very much higher rent than that in Scotland. Before the war most of the occupants of those council houses were drawn from the lower income groups. Earnings in those days were very much smaller than now, sometimes as low as 69s. a week. The local authority's annual charge for rent was 10 per cent.

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  of income, or 7s. a week, whereas today average earnings in industry are 217s. a week and the average rent for a council house is £26 2s. 1d., or 10s. a week, a little less than 4½ per cent. of income.
  What is now paid in rent bears no relation to capacity to pay. In industrial districts, where incomes are relatively high, local authorities pursue low rent policies, whereas in agricultural areas rents are much higher. It is a sobering fact that the rent of a post-war four-apartment house in Glasgow is £31 13s. 9d. a week. In Cupar it is £38, in Dunbar it is £40 and in Forres it is £45.
  Mr. Willis: What about Edinburgh?
  Mr. Henderson: There is a progressive town council in Edinburgh. Consequently things are in a much healthier condition.
  According to the figures given by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central, the economic rent of a four-apartment house is about £98 to £100. Towards that the taxpayer contributes in subsidy £42; and the ratepayer contributes in subsidy £14. The tenant in Glasgow pays a rent of £31 13s. 9d. This makes a total of £87 13s. 9d., which leaves a deficit of. £12 6s. 3d. which the rate- payers have to meet. Out of a true rent of £100, the taxpayer and the ratepayer pay £68 6s. 3d. and the tenant pays £31 13s. 9d. Since 1939, local authority rents have risen by 38 per cent., whereas weekly earnings in manufacturing industry have risen by over 200 per cent.
  A few weeks ago we had a deputation from the Convention of Royal Burghs which met hon. Members of both parties. The purpose of the visit was to protest against the cut in the housing subsidies. After having listened very attentively to what they said, some of my hon. Friends put questions to them. My hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) stated that there were 500,000 existing council houses in Scotland which had been built when costs and interest rates generally were lower than they are now. He suggested that what was needed was the pooling of subsidies and a reasonable rent levy, accompanied by rent rebate schemes to avoid hardships. In my opinion, that is a sound and sensible proposal which could and should be accepted.
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  It was suggested that if this subsidy cut came into operation it would involve hardship, but it is alien to the Government to place hardship on anyone in this country at any time. All our legislation has been to remove hardships and to make life better and happier for the people of this country.
  Mr. William Hamilton: What about the charges for prescriptions in the Health Service?
  Mr. Henderson: The reply which the representatives of the City of Glasgow made to those helpful suggestions of my hon. Friend was that the policy of Glasgow Corporation was to relate rents to building costs. Houses built twenty-five to thirty years ago might have cost £600 to £700, whereas houses built today might cost £1,800. The proposal that for houses equally in good condition and of equal facilities there should be disproportionate rents was to my mind a fantastic proposal and a fantastic policy for Glasgow Corporation to operate.
  If the reduced subsidy were paid over all the council houses in Glasgow, it would involve an increase in rent of 3½d. per week. Spread over all the post-war council houses it would involve an increase of 7d. a week. To suggest that this is hardship and injustice and that tenants are unable to pay this moderate increase in rent is just a lot of blarney.
  This is a sound proposal and another indication of the courageous manner in which the Government are carrying through their legislation.
  5.45 p.m.
  Mr. William Hannan: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. J. Henderson) assumes that we all agree with the manner in which the target of 300,000 houses has been reached. We attempted to deal with that in the Scottish Grand Committee. Of course, if the houses are smaller we get more from the same materials, and that is what the Government have been doing.
  The hon. Member talked about subsidies as though they were vile and in principle wrong. Would he agree that we should dispense with subsidies to farmers in the same way—or subsidies to egg merchants, for that matter?
  Mr. J. Henderson: The hon. Member is quite wrong in his assertion. The

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  people in the poultry trade get a subsidy, but the distributors or the shopkeepers get none. The merchants therefore receive no subsidy.
  Mr. Hannan: I was referring to most of the industries or services which are subsidised. It is not a question of principle which is troubling hon. Members opposite; what is troubling them is the question of who gets the subsidy. It could very well be argued from this side of the House that those who will get a subsidy from the National Assistance Board are the factors and property owners who will be getting the extra rents, because the old-age pensioners will have to go to the National Assistance Board for extra money with which to pay the increased rents.
  Mr. J. Henderson: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that Members of Parliament are getting the subsidies? I can tell him that they are getting them.
  Mr. Hannan: It is the question of who is to get the subsidy which is troubling hon. Members opposite. The hon. Member referred to some houses in Glasgow. It was hon. Members opposite who provided the houses in the first place and then allowed them to deteriorate. If flats were provided on the Clydeside in Glasgow, would hon. Members opposite be prepared to live in them? Do not let us be mealy-mouthed about this; hon. Members opposite should not ask people to do what they are not themselves prepared to do.
  One had hoped that with the advent of a new Secretary of State, a new personality to that high office, a review would be made of impending legislation in order to make it more liberal and progressive in its outlook, or should I say, National Liberal in its outlook? This Bill is part of the heritage which has been left to the right hon. Gentleman from the previous Administration, but he has accepted it in a docile fashion which shows how much he and the National Liberal Party have become prisoners of the Tory Party. Evidently they have concluded that if one cannot defeat one's enemy, the next best thing is to be swallowed up by him.
  I should have thought that, on entering office, the right hon. Gentleman would have reviewed the legislation and would have looked again at the new towns. But,
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  instead of a fresh breeze blowing through the corridors at St. Andrew's House, it is a chilly blast which is blowing through the offices of local authorities because of the proposals now before us.
  The New Towns Act, 1946, was not passed by the Labour Government in order that fourteen new towns would be an end of the matter. It was put on the Statute Book precisely to meet the conditions with which Glasgow and the industrial belt in Scotland are faced today; an area where, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) has said, there is an overspill of 300,000 people. Yet, for almost six years, the present Government have not designated a single new town, nor, evidently, do they propose to do so. This Bill is a poor substitute for the high purposes of that former legislation. It alters the proportion in which housing subsidies have hitherto been paid as between the local authorities and the Exchequer.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East (Sir G. Lloyd), who has been singularly silent since the party opposite was elected in 1951, this afternoon spoke of the principles of subsidies, and in reply I should like to quote his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General for Scotland. Of course, these words were used in 1955, the year of the election, but, in the Evening Times of Thursday, 19th May, 1955, the Solicitor-General had this to say about housing subsidies:
  "Housing is a fundamental social service on which the nation's health so largely depends. That is why we must subsidise the building of houses to let."
  It so happens that the hon. and learned Gentleman was right. Housing is a social service, and that is how we, on this side, look on it. I want to ask the Joint Under-Secretary of State to give a direct answer to the question whether the Government still look upon housing as a social service. If they do, then the principle of subsidies has been settled and now only the amount remains to be settled. We look upon this Measure as an emasculating attack upon a social service—as it has been described by at least one honourable inhabitant of the Front Bench opposite.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: A tenant.
  Mr. Hannan: The subsidies are paid for by the Exchequer and the local

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  authorities in a proportion of roughly three to one. At present, for a one- to three-apartment house, the Exchequer pays £39 15s. and the local authority pays £13 5s.,; for a four-apartment house, the proportions are £42 5s. and £14 5s. respectively; and for a five-apartment house they are £46 15s. and £15 10s. respectively. That is a proportion of, roughly, three to one. There is now to be a £24 flat rate irrespective of the size of the house, and for hon. Members opposite even to attempt to argue that this is not a cut in this social service is, of course, quite contrary to the facts.
  Even these changes, however, are quite unrealistic in relation to building costs. They do not take into account the increase in the cost of building and, what is more important, the freqently increasing interest charges which, in relation to subsidies, is more important than any other factor. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central, I have made one or two calculations, but the truth of the matter—and the broad principle of this Bill—is contained in the statement that the present Government's policy is actually to try to reduce the number of houses being built. That is the whole purpose of all the operations that have been going on for the past two or three years—valuation and rating, increased interest charges, the change in the Rent Restriction Acts, and the rest. The two main methods employed are high rates of interest and cuts in subsidies.
  Let us make a comparison of conditions as they existed in 1951 and in 1956. In 1951, the cost of building a four-apartment house—interest charges, the actual cost of labour and all the rest—was, over sixty years, £3,676. In 1956 that figure had risen to £5,822. The weekly cost in 1951 was £1 8s. 7d., and in 1956 it was £2 2s. 4d. Here we see one of the real causes of the Government's cutting back. Their only solution of the economic difficulties which they have brought upon themselves is to shift the burden from the shoulders of those best able to bear it and to put it on to those of the people who, indeed, need the social service.
  Those who earlier heard the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East would have assumed that he was speaking on
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  behalf of his constituents, yet, in principle and in its wording, his speech was very little different from another which he made. Proposing the principal toast at the annual dinner of the Property Owners' and Factors' Association, Glasgow, on 12th February, 1954, the hon. and gallant Member is reported as saying that
  "… he was not 'enamoured' with the Housing (Repairs and Rents) (Scotland) Bill, but he believed that if it was not a whole loaf it was better than no bread at all."
  He went on to say that his heart was breaking over the position of factors and property owners at that time. He then has the audacity to come here to try to justify such a Bill as this, which will have no result but a deterioration in the standard of living and in the cost of living of old-age pensioners and others.
  I disapprove most strongly of this Measure, which will do nothing whatever to relieve the frightful housing problem in Glasgow. In that city, 13 per cent. of our houses are one- and two-apartment dwellings. Thousands are living crowded together, and the fine aspirations already enshrined in the Statute Book are cast aside as having no useful purpose. In this Bill there is nothing but a continuation of the frightful, sordid conditions in which so many hundreds and thousands of my fellow citizens have to live.
  This Government cannot forget the small, selfish interests of the people who at present are influencing them behind the scenes; they cannot think in terms big enough and broad enough about the social changes which they can make in our country's way of living; they cannot see that this Bill has no vision. It is small and narrow. Let them take it away and, in its place, bring back something which will do far more good for Scotland in the years to come.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. J. C. George: The hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Hannan) will, I know, excuse me if I first make a few remarks about the speech of his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes). He dealt mainly with new towns, a subject on which he is so expert. I respect his views on these matters. Indeed, I agree with him in the major proposal which he put forward, which was that Glasgow's overspill, estimated at 300,000—though I very much doubt that figure—reduced to 200,000

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  after East Kilbride and Cumbernauld take their share, could not be dealt with by town development. I must say I thoroughly agree; I cannot see 200,000 people being housed in existing townships or village developments. With him, I look to the future as one which must contain another two new towns before the overspill problem of Glasgow can be solved.
  The hon. Gentleman rather deplored the financial arrangements made with other local authorities to take the overspill. I am sure that he was quite wrong. My right hon. Friend fully realises that no local authority will be saddled with the overspill from any town unless it at least breaks even on the project. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central can rest content that my right hon. Friend will not bring forward something which in the end will not work. He wants this scheme to work, and the hon. Gentleman can rest assured that the financial arrangements finally made will work.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: They are in the Bill.
  Mr. George: The financial arrangements are not in the Bill. That was part of the argument by the hon. Member's hon. Friends earlier. The same point applies to the housing associations. Unless the financial arrangements result in their breaking even, the scheme will not work. Hon. Members must give us credit for realising that matters must be so arranged that local authorities will take the overspill and housing associations are enabled to do the job that we give them to do.
  As regards industry following the "exportee", if I may use that word, the denunciation of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central was very strong, and he seemed to imply that my rihgt hon. Friend had given no attention to that matter at all. But my right hon. Friend showed quite clearly in his speech that he was fully seized of the problem, and that he had been studying the matter closely with the Glasgow authorities. He found that the Glasgow authorities were keen that industry should move with the people they exported from Glasgow, and indeed arrangements to that end have been made. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central was less than fair to my right hon. Friend in his denunciation.
  Mr. T. Fraser: Does the hon. Gentleman not appreciate that his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government said exactly the same about the Town Development Bill, now the Town Development Act, 1952? What my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central was doing was to call attention to the failure of that Act to deal with the problem and the failure of the Secretary of State to make any improvement on the English provisions in introducing this Part of the Bill.
  Mr. George: My right hon. Friend made it quite clear that his intention and Glasgow's intention was to arrange that industry should follow the people out of the town.
  Mr. Fraser: Not to arrange, but to desire. There are no means of facilitating the desire.
  Mr. George: There are means in the Bill.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: Where?
  Mr. George: There are means in the Bill to purchase land on which to build industrial premises to let or lease. That is in the Bill. The matter of industry is being tackled, and we should give my right hon. Friend credit for having studied the matter, and Glasgow Corporation the credit for being well aware that it should move industries when moving out excess population.
  Mr. John MacLeod: If my hon. Friend will forgive me for intervening, I will tell hon. Gentlemen opposite to look at Clause 9 (5), where they will find it.
  Mr. George: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his assistance.
  The right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) spoke about building factories in advance; and I remember the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) speaking on the same theme a little time ago. This is not an easy matter to deal with, and I believe that tremendous mistakes can be made in building factories in advance. Factories must normally be "tailor" built to suit the needs of the concern which ultimately occupies them.
  Mr. Woodburn: Do not all the factories in the development areas of Lanarkshire prove that the hon. Member is

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  wrong? There are factories to suit the different sizes of the local populations. Once one has established a housing area, one does not go on to put the factories there later; the whole thing is planned as a whole, and the factories are put there to suit the houses, or the houses to suit the factories, not as two separate operations.
  Mr. George: One could easily plan for the factories being ultimately there by leaving ground on which to build them, as is suggested in the Bill. But I say again that tremendous errors can be made in building factories in the hope that they will suit somebody who comes along to use them. One must be very careful indeed in building costly factories.
  The great point made by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central was, as he argued, the crippling effect which the Bill will have in Glasgow—£14 per annum for ten years for each house allocated to a person sent from Glasgow. But, I would ask, what would the Glasgow Corporation have to pay if it housed the people itself? Even under the new Bill, the Corporation would pay £8 for sixty years. Glasgow is saving money by being allowed to send people out to these places.
  Mr. McInnes: Does not the hon. Member for Pollock realise that if 300,000 people are exported out of Glasgow, Glasgow's rateable value goes down and the shops and industries of Glasgow will close down, probably moving elsewhere, and the 700,000 people left will have to face a burden of £14 million as a result of Measures of this kind?
  Mr. George: I give the hon. Gentleman credit for thinking more clearly than that. Three hundred thousand people will not be rehoused in a week or in a month.
  Mr. McInnes: Ten years or so.
  Mr. George: It will be a gradual process over many years, and the burden is £14 for ten years. The hon. Gentleman surely cannot believe that all these people or the factories will be got out of Glasgow inside ten years. There will be no question of bearing the whole cost in Glasgow before all the 300,000 have been removed.
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  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central said that the unfairness to Glasgow was shown by a comparison with London—Glasgow has to pay £14 for ten years while London paid nothing—and he went on to tell us about the difficulties of London in dealing with its overspill. He said that eight new towns had been built and yet London still had an overspill of 200,000. He said that difficulty had been experienced in trying to make other local authorities take their people; might not that have been because London would pay nothing? Did he not say in the course of his speech that Birmingham had offered to pay the full rate subsidy, and could not get the other authorities to claim people? Birmingham offered to undertake the burden; Birmingham did not feel that it was a crippling burden. But nobody would take them. If London will pay nothing, what claim have they that their people should occupy the new towns? I think it will be found—indeed, we know it was by agreement with the Glasgow Corporation—that the Corporation was quite satisfied with it.
  Mr. McInnes: Far from it.
  Mr. George: I was not satisfied with what my right hon. Friend had to say with regard to compensation for disturbance of industry. He indicated that, through the Inland Revenue authorities, he understood that the statutory compensation would, in a large measure, pay for rebuilding industries in a new area. Quite frankly, I have strong feelings on the subject of the displacement of industry and the displacement of homes. I feel that if our plans involve the shifting of industry from where it sits at the moment to another site to suit national or local government planning, then the people forced to shift should be enabled to set up again at no loss. What my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said does not satisfy me.
  Mr. McInnes: Hear, hear.
  Mr. George: I am bound to say that that is the feeling I have. If the hon. Gentleman made the point before me, I am re-emphasising what he said. As regards homes which are disturbed in the building of new towns, I should like to be assured that we shall do better than either side of the House has done in the

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  past. If a person is deprived of his home for the sake of local or national plans, he should get another home; he should be no worse off because he has to move from the place where he at present resides and intends to reside because of special local or national plans. I trust that my right hon. Friend will give these matters his consideration.
  The right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire said that the real purpose of the Bill was to raise rents. The hon. Member for Maryhill seemed to make this his main objection, and it was something upon which he spoke strongly. I always respect his views, although he sometimes expresses them rather forcibly. Here I consider that we should pay a tribute to the ex-Secretary of State who has shown great courage, honesty and integrity in trying to clear up the mess of rating, valuation, rents, subsidies and all the rest. He has followed his course courageously. It has been pursued in spite of the criticism, just and unjust, from the other side of the House. The Rating and Valuation Act removed an anachronistic and anomalous system. I am quite sure that if ever, unfortunately, right hon. Gentlemen opposite get back into power they will be delighted that we had the courage to put that Measure on the Statute Book. They will be delighted about the Rent Bill, too.
  They will be delighted that it has been done for them. They know perfectly well that the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) had already said that he would have to tackle the rent position. [Interruption.] An hon. Member says that the Member for Pollok opposed the Rent Bill. I had certain views about the Rent Bill but did not oppose the principle. I opposed the timing. I am perfectly in agreement that decontrol must come, in Scotland and elsewhere.
  Now we have the third bold Measure tackling subsidies. The fury expressed by hon. Members opposite is phoney fury, just as it was when we considered the Rating and Valuation Bill. They will be relieved that the Bill has been passed for them, if ever they come to power. Our leaders are prepared to be undeservedly unpopular if we can get some of the blunders in our system rectified.
  Let me deal first with subsidies. It has been said over and over again that it is
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  the habit for Scotland to be tacked on to the tail of England, that we always follow behind and wait until the English tell us what we should do. Here we have a clear demonstration that Scottish conditions have had full consideration. England has abolished the subsidy for general needs, but we have not. We have reduced it to £24. Let me illustrate the future position. A comparison of subsidies in England and Scotland shows that if 1,000 houses are built in each country, one-third for general needs, one-third for slum clearance and one-third for overspill, the subsidy paid in England will be £15,000 and that paid in Scotland will be £30,000. Scotland is not being trailed at the tail of England. Scotland is a way ahead in making sure that proper treatment is given to Scottish conditions.
  The Bill faces squarely the Scottish position. I admit that there is a reduction which I will justify later. We have not taken the step which England has taken and tried to concentrate upon slum clearance. The Working Party's Report handed to the Secretary of State recently stated that in its view we were not yet in a position to concentrate fully and vigorously upon slum clearance. The emphasis, it said, was still on houses to deal with overcrowding. Therefore, we have not given slum clearance a higher place in the subsidy list.
  Let us look now at why we reduced the subsidies. I do not look upon it as at all a crime to reduce subsidies. I never thought that they were permanent and inflexible. One recalls that immediately after the First World War the cost of building was high and very little building was done. In the years succeeding the war the cost of building fell rapidly, back to normality. In the 1920's costs even fell below normal.
  Could it be that after the Second World War it was expected that the same thing would happen? I as an industrialist expected it. I expected to have to face falling costs and a lower demand. I expected to have to be more efficient. Perhaps it was expected that the same would apply in housing. What was done was that a subsidy was granted, as the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire said, as a bribe to get on with building. To get the building industry going after the war, subsidies were given as a means of persuading it to go ahead and to induce

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  it to build houses on the massive scale required. But the intention was not that that should go on for ever. We have to recognise that the "normality" of 1938 will never return. We are today in normality as far as costs and wages go.
  The hon. Member for Maryhill said that the cost of building was rising. I maintain that we have reached a point in the cost of building, and wages, when subsidies should be stabilised. On the subject of the cost of building, Mr. G. B. Esslemont, City Chamberlain in Glasgow, speaking at the annual meeting of the Scottish National Housing and Town Planning Council on 5th and 6th October, said:
  "On the whole, particularly when taking into account increases since 1952 in wages and other costs, it could be said that the real cost per house, while not lower than in 1952, has not shown an appreciable increase."
  Housing costs have become static. Having regard to the level of building costs and the level of wages and other costs, this is a time to bring subsidies back to a relative position. What is the position to which we have brought them? The amount of subsidy paid for permanent houses in Scotland last year was over £12 million for 500,000 houses. The average subsidy was therefore £24. That is the subsidy we now propose. The pool of subsidies will not be increased, but for every house now built the average subsidy will be added to the pool so that it will not go down. I believe that a point has been reached when we must consider the cost of building and wages as having reached normal. That is one reason why I favour the Bill. The other reason is perhaps that which has been stressed not just here but all over the country, that subsidies have been misused and, indeed, abused. That is one of the reasons subsidies should be reduced.
  Why were they granted in the first place? In my view, they were granted to make certain that no person would be deprived of a home through inability to pay rent. That was the purpose of the subsidy and, by and large, in pre-war days it performed just that purpose. It will be recalled that before the war instructions to local authorities were to build for the working classes. For the most part, we housed the working classes in local authority houses and, by and large, they had about the same level of
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  wages, so the subsidy was being used properly.
  Mr. Bence: Before the war those who built their own houses for owner-occupation received subsidies.
  Mr. George: I cannot see the relevance of that observation. I will not repeat what I said. It is well known to everyone but the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence). The local authorities were directed to build for the working classes. After the war, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale was Minister, that was changed, and we built local authority houses for all and sundry. At the same time, we virtually prohibited the building of private dwellings, so that everybody, irrespective of salary or wage level, had to go on the local council list if he needed a house.
  Therefore, instead of catering for a broad mass of people on the same level of income, since the war we have been catering for the great mass of people with great variations in income levels. Nobody would say that because a man takes a local authority house he needs financial assistance. Housing need is not synonymous with financial need; but that is the very position taken up by local authorities. The position is, "If you come to us for a house we will subsidise you whether you need it or not." I believe that a very large number of people now occupying council houses could pay a higher rent than they are paying. To that extent the subsidy is misused.
  I should like to quote from a Circular put out by Mr. Greenwood in 1930. It stated:
  "The clear intention of Parliament is that the new grant shall not enure to persons for whom it is not needed. The grant, together with the prescribed rate charge, should be regarded as a pool out of which such abatements or other special arrangements in regard to rent as the local authorities propose may be financed. Rent relief should be given only to those who need it and only for so long as they need it."
  It was the intention of the Labour Government's Act of 1930 that the benefit of this arrangement should go to those who needed it, and only to those who needed it, but that is not the position today. The subsidies have been misused.
  Mention has been made of the level of rents, and, apart altogether from the misuse of the subsidies by subsidising people

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  who did not need them, the local authorities in Scotland have consistently been pursuing a policy of unduly low rents. When the subsidies were fixed in 1946 and 1952, it was made quite clear to the local authority concerned what rent it was expected the local authority should charge. When the subsidy was fixed in 1946 at £23, it was expected that the local authorities would charge a rent of £26. That was the rent which the Government expected them to charge. In 1952, when the subsidy was fixed, the local authorities were expected to charge £30 5s., without owner's rates, and under this Bill, they will be expected to charge £39, without owner's rates.
  This has been made quite clear to them all through the years, but they have consistently neglected it, so much so that, when one goes into the figures in order to see what has been taking place regarding rents since the beginning of the war, one is astonished to find that six authorities which own 120,000 houses in Scotland have not touched the rents since 1938. That represents 29 per cent. of local authority houses in Scotland. [An HON. MEMBER: "They are pre-war houses."] They could not very well increase the rent of post-war houses until after the war. They have not touched these rents since 1938 in the case of these authorities, while six other authorities have not touched rents since 1947, and 20 other authorities have not touched them since 1950.
  Therefore, we find that the level of rents is being deliberately maintained at an unduly low figure, and it is very interesting indeed to find what these levels of rents are, because the whole position in Scotland has been clouded by this mixing of rates and rent. Council house tenants talk about rents when they mean rates and rent. Owner's rates and rent are now counted as rent. The Rating and Valuation Act will clear this up in a very short time.
  The position was very clearly stated by the Working Party when it came to examine the position in Scotland in the light of what would happen when the Rating and Valuation Act became law, and the Report brought out an astonishing figure about rents in Scotland. I am talking now about actual rent, which is the amount which the person pays for shelter, and owner's rates have nothing to
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  do with it. The tenant pays owner's rates for other services such as police, fire brigade, public parks and other things, but the rent he pays is for shelter. The average rent in the cities of Scotland is 6s. 8d. per week; in the large burghs it is 6s. 1d.; in the cities and the large burghs combined it is 6s. 5d.; in the small burghs it is 7s. ld.; and in the counties of Scotland it is 4s. 5d. a week. These are the rents actually being charged by local authorities today, and, what is more, further on in their Report the Working Party say that in many cases the rent will be much lower than this, and, in fact, it is much lower. The right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire dealt with this point when comparing Dollar rents with Ayr County.
  In the burgh of Airdrie, there is an astounding rent of 3s. per week, that is, stripped of owner's rates, and Ayr county has the same figure. The Glasgow rate, stripped of owner's rates is 5s., and that in Kilmarnock is also 5s. The Edinburgh figure, incidentally, is 9s. 6d. When I showed these figures to some members of Glasgow Town Council, "incredulous", "fantastic" and "amazing" were the words used in comment.
  That is the position which the local authorities have created in Scotland today, and, in the light of the figures I have given, it is evident that they have been abusing the subsidies, and some way must be found to make the position of rents equate with responsibility to the community as a whole.
  Mr. Woodburn: Is it not the case that, in some of these areas, the rates are so high that the rates have been used as a method of levelling rent and rates, and that this is a method by which a person who has a local authority house is not called upon to pay the high rates and a high rent, and the whole housing account has been pooled in order that people should be able to pay a balanced rent? This is not quite so simple as the hon. Gentleman suggested.
  Mr. George: I cannot pretend to follow the right hon. Gentleman in the point he makes. I only know one system of levying rates, and that is by taking the amount of the rent and putting rates upon that figure.
  Mr. Woodburn: The hon. Gentleman knows very well that there are a great

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  many pre-1914 houses on which low rents are charged and the tenants of which do not pay anything like the contribution that would be paid by a local authority tenant paying on the higher rents which the hon. Gentleman has been mentioning. We know that there are different types of property, and the local authorities have on occasion tried, but not very successfully, to see that the people in the old houses paid higher rents so that the people in the local authority houses, in a combination of rent and rates, would pay a figure approximating to what was right for those houses.
  Mr. George: I will accept that if the right hon. Gentleman tells me it is so, but I cannot see how they could possibly do that. If rent passing is automatically the valuation they cannot pay more rates than that.
  Mr. George Lawson: I know that the hon. Gentleman is trying to he fair, but he quoted the Working Party Report. I think he would agree that the Working Party also compared rent and rates in Scotland with those in England and Wales. If the hon. Gentleman does so, I think he will find that the figure is nothing like that which he has produced on the selective basis which he has been quoting.
  Mr. George: I would have to be prepared, in answer to the hon. Member, to compare not just rent burden but the total burden of rent and rates.
  Mr. Lawson: Take them both together.
  Mr. George: I was taking only rents, but I will now take the whole burden of rent and rates in Scotland, as against the total burden of rents and rates, compared with England and Wales. For a four-apartment house in Edinburgh, for instance, the total burden of rent and rates is £58 9s.; in Liverpool £68 9s. 6d.; in Birmingham, £77 3s.; in Clydebank £51 12s. 6d.; in Birkenhead £77 10s.; in Dundee £58 2s.; in Hull £71 10s.; in Aberdeen £49 and so on. These figures show quite clearly the total burden of rent and rates in England as being much higher when compared with Scotland.
  Mr. Lawson: The hon. Gentleman is being very selective in the examples which he has quoted.
  Mr. George: I could quote further examples, and I have given comparative figures, but maybe the hon. Member for Motherwell may be tempted to deal with the position himself. I was making the point that rents in Scotland have been unduly low, and I say that there is no need to worry about any great burden being put on because of the subsidies being cut. The rents are still well able to bear it.
  On the question of interest rates, which has been raised in this debate, I want to take the two figures together. I have calculated what the cost of the reduction in the subsidy would be, and I have already heard mentioned by other hon. Members on this side the argument that the cut in the subsidy spread over all the 500,000 houses in Scotland would represent 3d. per week on the rent. I agree with that figure. Rates of interest must be considered as a whole, and their incidence must be considered as a whole. I repeat what I have said before in similar debates in this House, that a local council does not calculate the cost of the rate of interest paid on a house as one amount, a single item. It is spread over its total capital burden.
  Since the Conservatives have been in charge of the affairs of the country interest rates have risen by 2 per cent. I grant that straight away, but in Glasgow, for instance, whereas the overall rate of interest in 1952 was 3.03, it is now 3.56 per cent. Hon. Gentlemen opposite who are well aware of local government finance mislead people by suggesting that a local authority takes all its borrowed money at once. Local authorities if they are clever financiers, do not take it all at once. They borrow on short term, and the result is that they do not pay 5 per cent. or 5¾ per cent. For instance, in Edinburgh the interest charge has risen from 3.23 per cent. to only 3.65 per cent. In Dundee it has risen by 0.51 per cent.; in Aberdeen by 0.55 per cent. This has happened between 1952 and 1956. A local authority does not say, "That house cost us interest at 5¾ per cent."
  Mr. T. Fraser: The hon. Gentleman is taking into account all the outstanding debts of local authorities and is saying what the average rate of interest is at the present time. Does he not know what Glasgow has been paying for money

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  which it has been borrowing on the money market in recent times? Is he not aware that it is 5 per cent. at the present time?
  Mr. George: That is the point I was making. We do not take the position at any one time. We take a running position which is worked out at the end of the year, year after year.
  That is the position, and rates of interest have risen by 0·5 per cent. not by 2 per cent. during the last four years. To talk of crippling burdens caused by raising the rates of interest is just nonsense.
  Mr. Woodburn: While what the hon. Gentleman is saying, that a local authority spreads its interest over all its debts, may be true, would he not agree that when a local authority contemplates building more houses it calculates the loss it will have on those houses, and that that may deter it from building more houses?
  Mr. George: I do not think for one moment that the local authorities, as the right hon. Gentleman suggests, are unduly depressed by what the rate of interest is at any given time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] They are more concerned with doing their duty by the people, and I do not believe for one moment that a temporary 5¾ per cent. will deter or has deterred the local authorities in Scotland from going on with their building plans.
  Added together, the cost of reducing subsidies is only 3d. when spread over all the houses, and even if the interest rates were 5¾ per cent. it would mean only an additional 7½d., over all the range of the council houses. That is not a crushing burden.
  Since the new subsidies were announced there has been a campaign in Scotland which has aroused alarm and dismay amongst many people. When my right hon. Friend made that announcement in the House, the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central, who knows housing too well to make any impromptu remark without some calculation, however quick, asked—knowing full well that the reduction of subsidy would mean a loss of only £350,000 to the local authorities—
  "Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that these drastic reductions in Scottish housing subsidies, from an average of £42 to £24, with a corresponding reduction in the local rate of contribution, will entail an average increase
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  in rental of £25 to £30 a year for 500,000 municipal tenants in Scotland?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1956; Vol. 557, c. 1165.]
  That is quite untrue. Such a thought could never have crossed the hon. Member's mind in honesty.
  Hon. Members: Oh.
  Mr. T. Fraser: On a point of order. The hon. Gentleman, having quoted my hon. Friend, has just said that such a thought could not have crossed my hon. Friend's mind in honesty. Is he not imputing dishonesty to my hon. Friend?
  Mr. Speaker: I think the phrase unfortunate, but I do not think that the hon. Member for Pollok (Mr. George) meant it in that way. However, I think he ought to put the matter straight.
  Mr. George: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will withdraw that very readily. I had no intention of imputing dishonesty, but the hon. Member's knowledge of housing and knowledge of money matters is too good for him to have said that without thought. He said that there would be an increase of £25 to £30 a year in rental and he said that that would cost not £350,000 but £13,750,000. That is what he said would be the amount put on the rents in Scotland, to make up a loss of £350,000.
  Mr. McInnes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I could cite many local authorities which, since the intimation about the housing subsidies, have been compelled to raise rents from 9s. a week to 14s. 3d.? If that does not come to about £25 or £30 a year, I do not know what does. That has been done by some of the local authorities, which have taken that step in advance of the Bill's becoming an Act. Therefore, there will yet be many more local authorities which will have to make similar increases. In the light of that, does the hon. Member not realise that my calculation at that time was pretty accurate and has been proved so?
  Mr. George: The calculation was completely inaccurate, intentionally or unintentionally, I do not know. It was that to meet a loss of £350,000 the local authorities would have to levy £13,750,000 upon their people. That statement has spread alarm and dismay in Scotland and it ought to be withdrawn, and in public.
  Mr. McInnes: I shall repeat it again here.
  Mr. George: Let me finish. I have detained the House too long already.
  Local authority practice in Scotland has been to charge unduly low rents, and the local authorities have squared their housing accounts by putting burdens on the ratepayers year after year. They have been robbing poor, impoverished, badly-housed Peter to pay thriving, well-housed Paul. Two-thirds of the householders have been paying an annual levy for the other one-third, and they are getting tired of it. Let us see this matter put in its proper perspective. Glasgow, with whose affairs I have some familiarity, last year took £1,500,000 from two-thirds of its ratepayers who do not enjoy council houses, to pay into its housing account, and the total amount is £6,200,000 since the practice started. We think that this unfair burden upon the ratepayers should stop. It is not good local Government. It is not good government of any kind. It is selective punishment, calculated discrimination. The withdrawal of the subsidies will force a review of that position.
  There is the truth about rents—too long concealed, too long providing an alibi for extravagant or timid local authorities, too long used by hon. Members opposite as an emotional instrument to play upon the sentiments of simple people kept in ignorance of the truth by our archaic rating system. All disguise is now banished by the new Rent Bill. Rents will henceforth stand out in stark purity. The reaction will be healthy. I anticipate that it will shock the smug complacency out of many council chambers in Scotland.
  The "Rake's Progress" of rates will be exposed and any upward jump in future will evoke loud angry yelps of indignation. The beneficial effects could easily be the salvation of local government in Scotland which is now slowly slipping into discredit and decay. I welcome the Bill and I believe that it will bring a measure of order into the chaotic disorder of rating and housing in Scotland.
  6.42 p.m.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: There have been four characteristics in today's Government speeches in this debate. First, hon. Members opposite speak like rich men to whom money is of little concern. The hon. Member for Argyll talked about a mere increase of 15s. a week being inconsiderable and
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  hardly worth the attention of the House, but 15s. a week is £39 a year, and I submit that that is of very great concern to many of the tenants with whom the Bill will deal. Many of them are poor and many are old-age pensioners.
  It may be true that in some cases, as the hon. Member mentioned, there will be several incomes coming into the house, but in the main the tenants whose houses will be the subject of the Bill are poor and many are old-age pensioners. It may be that the hon. Member for Argyll or his hon. Friends may spend £39 on a dinner party, and it may be of little concern to them, but it is of great concern to tenants of these houses. It seems to me that hon. Members opposite also speak without any detailed knowledge of the present state of our economy, of the high cost of living and of the burdens which rest so heavily on the tenants of these houses.
  Mr. Nixon Browne: The hon. and learned Member has referred to the hon. Member for Argyll. Did he not mean my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Renfrew, East (Sir G. Lloyd)?
  Mr. Hughes: Yes, I am speaking of the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East. I thank the hon. Gentleman for the correction. I hope that it will be duly recorded so that the record will be in order.
  Another characteristic of the speeches made within the last hour or so is that all hon. Members opposite have been speaking to a party ticket. This is a matter which should be above party politics. We should consider it on its merits. We should consider the merits or demerits of the Bill, the interests of the tenants and of the people of Scotland, and not speak, as hon. Members opposite are obviously doing, to a party ticket in order to support the Government and support the Bill.
  I oppose the Bill because it is a covert and unjust attempt to legalise burdens on people who are unable to bear them. The Bill is bad and wrong and will do a great deal of harm. I asked the Minister, when he moved the Second Reading, one question about the financing of the Bill. I drew attention to Clauses 13 and 14, with a view to pointing out that it is wrong that a Bill like this should come before the House without our having an opportunity of legislating on its finances.

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  Clause 13, in Part II, deals with powers as to acquisition and use of land for the purposes of town development schemes, and Clause 14 provides that the financing of the Bill is to be dealt with by regulations. That is undoubtedly wrong. It is bad that the money which will be required for the Bill should not be dealt with by the House as a whole. Instead under Clause 14 it will be dealt with by regulations and this is wrong.
  The Bill is objectionable on a number of other grounds, in its details, in its timing, having regard to the present state of the national economy, and in the fact—and this may be a legalistic point—that it is an instance of legislation by reference, which the House generally condemns. As to its general policy, it would penalise one section of the community, namely the tenants of small houses, by placing upon them a new burden. It does this regardless of the fact that of all sections of the community those tenants are the least able to bear a new burden. It does it regardless of the fact that these tenants are already liable for rates. It singles out this one class for the benefit of other and richer classes better able to bear these financial burdens.
  The Bill is objectionable and impracticable. I submit that on greater authority than my own. The associations of county councils in Scotland, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee, and the Convention of Royal Burghs have vast, detailed and skilled experience in these relevant matters. They have considered the Government's proposals and have pronounced upon them in no uncertain fashion, indeed in an authoritative fashion.
  They have unanimously condemned the proposals upon which the Bill is based. I do not propose to go into those in detail. I do not want to discuss Committee points which will be debated at the proper time. These authoritative and representative people express in their report general dissatisfaction with the Government's proposals for future housing subsidies and particularly oppose the proposed reductions in subsidies. They ask that existing subsidies provided by Parliament under the Housing (Scotland) Acts of 1950 and 1952 be maintained and frozen at present levels for the periods 1957–58 and 1960–61 and be payable in respect of new houses erected during that intervening period.
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  These authoritative people further point out that the Bill is not only unsound and wrong but is premature, because the effects of the recent revaluations of property under the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1956, are not yet known, and in their view it is necessary that time should elapse and that they should be known before any further change such as that proposed in the Bill is made.
  I take my stand upon that report, because it is authoritative, detailed, scientific, analytic and constructive, because it is the work of public representatives with a wealth of experience of housing problems in all parts of Scotland. They approach these problems scientifically and in a detailed way. They summarise the Government's new proposals under ten heads, and they condemn them. They contrast them with subsidies made under earlier legislation, now in operation, which the Government seek to change wantonly without giving the system an opportunity of being fully tested. They analyse the cost of new houses in relation to the Bill. They discuss interest rates, rent levels, valuation and rating aspects. They give reasons which are set out categorically and judicially why they are against the Government's proposals, which they very properly stigmatised as "an altogether unrealistic approach to Scotland's serious housing problem."
  I am quite sure that the House would agree, and also the public outside from whom we derive our authority in this House, that for the Government to ignore these representative persons and their careful, diligent and exhaustive report and to push through in face of that this unreasonable and impracticable Bill would be the negation of democracy and experience. It would be, indeed, an argument for Scottish self-government in the face of the hubristic and obstinate arrogance of the present Tory ascendancy which constitutes the Government today. Therefore, for all these reasons, I oppose the Bill and ask the House not to give it a Second Reading.
  Colonel Sir Alan Gomme-Duncan: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman tell us what he would have said if he had been making a party speech?
  Mr. Lawson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State for Scotland came to this House, made a speech and then disappeared. He has not been here since. Is there any way in which we can have him here to listen to this important debate on the housing position of Scotland?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order, and the matter is quite outside my control.
  6.52 p.m.
  Mr. C. N. Thornton-Kemsley: If I were to deal with the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes), I am quite certain that I should be guilty of what the House has always known as tedious repetition, because the Secretary of State for Scotland and at least two other hon. Members on this side of the House have completely torn to shreds the points which he has read out from a memorandum presented to both parties in Committee.
  I do not want to speak tonight about that aspect of the Bill but about the proposals contained in Part II dealing with town development. I suppose that all of us come into the House with certain ideals, although I am afraid that all too often those ideals tend to be blurred by the passage of time and by other circumstances. One of the ideals, I confess to the House, I have always held, which I find more strongly coming upon me with every year that passes, is the intense desire to see throughout the United Kingdom, and particularly in places like Glasgow and the great conurbations in the West of Scotland, the replacing of slums and congested urban areas by new building at standards of density which allow decent family living. That kind of ideal is often forced aside by the pressure of economic circumstances, by the gregarious instincts of men and women who live in cities and by the sprawl of mile upon dreary mile of continuously built-up areas over the surrounding countryside.
  These things have forced us far too often to substitute for the deplorable the tolerable rather than the best. Nevertheless I have seen in the eighteen years or so that I have been a Member of this House two most helpful factors, and I do not hesitate to place first the new town development in this country, the success
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  of which is now assured. I would place second in the context in which I am speaking, the possibility which will be within our reach in Scotland as a result of this Bill of expanding small country towns to take the overspill from our great urban conurbations.
  The House of Commons takes most things in its stride, but I remember so well a summer afternoon about four years ago when we had a Scottish debate. Hon. Members came hurrying from all over the place to see the somewhat unusual phenomenon of an hon. Member who had been an hon. Member of this House for eight years rising to make his maiden speech. The hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Balfour) broke his silence after eight years, and I do not think he has broken it since, at any rate upon the Floor of the House.
  The hon. Member appealed for consideration for the many decaying country towns in the part of Scotland that he knew best. Such as Kilsyth and Lennoxtown in his own constituency. He might have added Shotts and many other towns in Lanarkshire which have been vacated by the miners drawn to the new coalfields in East Fife, who have left behind them only the old and the maimed, like driftwood on the sands after the tides have receded. The hon. Member for West Stirlingshire went on to ask, "What is the good of building new towns to take the overspill from Glasgow when all the time the unemployed from these decaying country towns are going back into the great cities to take their places?"
  Whatever disadvantages these small and medium-sized country towns may have—and they have many disadvantages—they have at any rate established communities with an active social life. They have churches, schools, community centres, playingfields and parks. They need, in many cases, only facilities for profitable employment to make them tolerable places to live in and to revitalise them into the kind of life that a decent country town ought to have. The problem of decaying country towns is almost as acute in Scotland as the problem of great overcrowded cities. Each ought to help the other. Each can help the other as a result of the legislation that the House is being asked to pass this evening.
  I remember being asked—I think it was in 1953—to speak at St. Andrews at the

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  annual conference of the Scottish Town and Country Planning Association, and I devoted my speech then to the need for comparable legislation in Scotland to the Town Development Act, 1952. The purpose of that Act, I recognise most readily, was not to arrest the decay of country towns in England and Wales. It was not even to encourage dispersal. It was intended to help financially a limited number of country towns to develop rapidly as centres for the relief of urban congestion, particularly in places like London, Manchester, Merseyside and some of the great Midland conurbations in England.
  I do not agree with everything that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) said, but I agree with him that so far the English Town Development Act, 1952, has not been a success. Very few schemes have been agreed. Negotiations have gone on which seem all too often to be bogged down in a mass of detail.
  However, there are three recent encouraging signs. There is first the fact that the Government have now agreed to make grants of up to 50 per cent. for the work of what I call pump-priming. I mean by that the water schemes, the sewerage schemes, and all those other things which cost a lot and which are not revenue producing in the way of rates for a number of years. Secondly, there is the encouragement given by the differential rate of subsidy, so that the subsidy in England and Wales for houses to take the overspill from congested cities to expanded towns is to be £24 as compared originally with £10 for the general need subsidy and now nothing at all.
  Thirdly, it has been most encouraging that an old chief of mine in the early days of the war at Scottish Command, General Sir Humfrey Gale, the Chairman of the new town at Basildon, was appointed by the late Minister of Housing and Local Government to go round all the towns which might be ready to accept an overspill population that might be the subject of a town development scheme in order to try to urge the adoption of more schemes in England and Wales. Where schemes have been adopted in places like Daventry, Swindon and Bletchley, and where they are in process of adoption in places such as Haverhill, Thetford, Letchworth and Huntingdon, it has been
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  because additional help has been forthcoming both from the Government and from the county councils concerned.
  Early in 1956 I was one of a small deputation which went to the then Minister of Housing and Local Government. We urged two things principally upon him in connection with town development schemes. We asked, first, that there should be some form of Government guarantee to the reception areas against an increase of the rate burden as a result of the developments they were undertaking. Secondly, we urged a liberal assessment of works that would qualify for the 50 per cent, grant, the cost of which can be very heavy indeed. For example, in the case of Ashford in Kent it was estimated that the capital costs of an expansion for 15,000 people would run into something like £10 million.
  I am sure that the Bill which my right hon. Friend has presented to the House today is a great improvement upon the English Act of 1952. I will give one or two particulars to prove my contention. First, houses to meet the needs of exporting areas, whether they are built by reception authorities, by the Scottish Special Housing Association or by the exporting authority itself, attract a subsidy of £42 for sixty years as compared with a £24 subsidy in the case of England and Wales. Secondly, where the reception authority itself builds, the exporting authority has to contribute a minimum of £14 a year for ten years to the reception authority. There is no such provision in the English Act, although quite a usual arrangement has been that there should be a ten year contribution of £8 per annum per house.
  Thirdly, as in England and Wales, the amount of the grant for the acquisition, the clearance and the preparation of sites is not specified, and Regulations in England and Wales have specified that in normal circumstances the grant should be 50 per cent. The House will be aware that the Clyde Valley Advisory Committee advised that in Scotland the grant should be 75 per cent.
  Naturally we shall all want to read the speech of my right hon. Friend because details are sometimes not easy to absorb from a first hearing, but I understand from him that the Treasury grant in our

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  case is to be 75 per cent. of the difference between the expenditure by the reception authority and the revenue it receives. If that is so, it seems to me to be a sensible and, indeed, a generous arrangement. I am glad to see, too, that in Scotland the Exchequer contributions are linked to the effect of the proposed development on local revenues. That should help the smaller local authorities very much.
  More than one hon. Member has spoken about industry, and I am certain that a planned decentralisation involves not only a movement of population but a dispersal of industry. That is the crux of the problem, because industry can be encouraged to move but it cannot be compelled. It is all to the good that there will be competition to attract industry between the new towns and the expanding towns. The new towns are able to offer factories for letting, and they are able to offer them on particularly favourable terms if these happen to be in Development Areas. On the other hand, the expanding towns will, we hope, be able to offer workers. Clause 9 of the Bill, as one of my hon. Friends has pointed out, enables an exporting authority to contribute towards the cost incurred by the reception authority in providing industrial facilities.
  I want to say something to my right hon. Friend who returned to the Chamber a few minutes ago. I hope he will not leave for a moment. He said something that made me wonder if his idea of these expanded towns was on all-fours with mine. My right hon. Friend spoke twice in his speech about "purely dormitory development." I know he did not mean that all the development under the expanded towns, under housing development, was to be purely dormitory development. I hope, however, he does not mean that any of it is to be purely dormitory development. We must avoid the erection of dormitory areas, with long daily journeys to and from the city where the workers are employed. It adds to the traffic congestion and the frustration. I do not like the idea of building areas for commuters only; I want to see expanding towns which will take industry as well as populations with them.
  Miss Margaret Herbison: Has the hon. Member any constructive suggestions to make to his
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  Ministers as to how he could attract industry to these areas?
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I have one constructive suggestion. If we are able to move industry out—and I am assuming that we can—there will remain the problem of what is to be done with the vacated factories in the congested urban areas. The cost of acquisition by local authorities will be very high, but if local authorities do not acquire them, the industrialists who have vacated the factories will naturally try to make the best bargain they can with other industries who take them over, and the whole problem will be repeated again. The hole will be filled up, instead of the factories being demolished and the space used for housing upon a reasonable density inside the urban area.
  There is a strong case for a generous Treasury contribution towards the cost of acquiring vacated factories in overcrowded areas, in order that industrialists may move either to the new towns or to the expanding country towns. I am certain that the cost of grants of that kind and of grants and guarantees under the Bill generally will be far less than the alternative of high density development in central sites.
  The one feature of the Bill about which I am not happy is that which concerns high subsidies for multi-storey flats. I know that such flats are sometimes unavoidable, but they are an extravagant and uneconomic method of housing people, which the Government ought not to encourage. The cult of Le Corbusier, with or without stilts, is not one which those who want to see a Scottish tradition in urban building should seek to emulate. With that exception, I welcome the subsidy proposals, together with the English legislation which has preceded them. It is rather interesting to notice that these are the first economic measures which have been taken anywhere in the world to embody in housing legislation an encouragement of redevelopment based upon planned dispersal.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central asked what advantages country towns could hope to gain from a planned expansion. He sought to condemn the Bill, implying that these towns could derive no advantages from such development. I do not believe that to be the case. Country towns can hope to gain prestige

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  and, more importantly, a new life and hope. The amenities which larger populations make possible—perhaps swimming pools, more frequent bus services, large picture houses and Woolworths! All these things play a large part in stopping the drift from the countryside.
  I am sure that it must be a source of personal pride to my right hon. Friend that the first purely Scottish Measure which he has introduced will bring hope alike to the overcrowded cities and to the decaying country towns of Scotland.
  7.15 p.m.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: I was attracted by a number of suggestions which the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) made. I should not like to follow his arguments about the aesthetic and social advantages and disadvantages of the technique of Le Corbusier, or any of those matters. I want to deal with his argument about industry. In his very gracious and charming reference to my right hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) he mentioned the matter of industry in the new towns, and in response to an intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) he called for generous Treasury grants to factory owners to help them transfer their organisations to the new towns.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I want Treasury grants to local authorities to help them to acquire the factories.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: That may be so, but when we are dealing with a Bill restricting finance it seems to me peculiar to ask for generous Treasury grants. It seems to be out of tune with the main function of the Bill.
  The most important name among those promoting the Bill is that of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. His name suggests its real purpose, which is, first, to try to load a great deal of the local authority burden on to tenants of council houses and, secondly, to unload on to local authorities the Government's responsibility for the creation of new towns and new areas to deal with the overspill problem. I may be wrong, but that is the feeling which many people in Scotland have about the Bill. It really is not a housing and town development Bill; it is
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  more of a means by which the Government can evade their full financial responsibilities in this very important matter.
  Without doubt, housing is the greatest social problem in Scotland, and it seems peculiar that in a Bill like this we should have cuts in subsidies, when the Working Party can say that Scotland has by no means reached the stage when it can look simply to slum clearance programmes; it first has to deal with the rehousing of people living in overcrowded conditions and find homes for people without them.
  Many comments have been made about the position of tenants. I do not want to go into the argument about subsidies and who should get them. We should be very careful in applying such an argument, and I would counsel hon. Members opposite to be very careful in their enunciation of this principle, in case they find that they are robbing many of their constituents of the economic basis of their existence. Hon. Members opposite must be very careful, in our modern and complex society, that in enunciating such a principle in simple terms they do not betray interests which they represent.
  Neither do I wish to go into the argument about differential rents and rent rebates. I want to look at the general position. One-tenth of the houses in my constituency consist of slums. They are not just bad houses; they are slums—unfit for human habitation. That is not saying much for the houses which are declared fit for human habitation. I should not like to live in many of them, and I am deeply sorry for those who are obliged to do so. We have a very long housing list, and it is tragic to have to sit in one's local "surgery" and hear the pathetic cases of housing difficulties. That situation applies in many other towns. My local authority is facing a massive deficit, and even though it is increasing rents, which it is being driven to do, it will be difficult for it to maintain the building of an adequate number of houses with this new burden of housing subsidy cuts.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East (Sir G. Lloyd) said that the bulk of the people in Scotland are in favour of this Bill. My constituency has a corporation consisting of eighteen Labour councillors, six Progressive councillors, two Independent councillors—and

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  they are genuinely independent; they are not Progressives or Conservatives in disguise—and one Communist. That is quite a complex and, I would say, fair representation of the political moods of the community which I represent, and almost indeed of Great Britain. That council has unanimously protested against this Bill, not on party grounds but on the social grounds of the problem which it has to face.
  In answer to the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East, surely it is true to say that the local authorities in Scotland represent a considerable number of people. One might even argue that they represent the bulk of the people. Yet we have the peculiar situation in which the three major local authority associations have come together and have unanimously protested about this Bill. They have claimed that this Bill is unfair to local authorities and, with the exception of Edinburgh, all the great cities, almost all the large and small burghs and county councils, have joined together to protest about this Bill. How can the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East say that he believes the bulk of the people in Scotland are in favour of this Bill? I cannot understand that statement; its meaning escapes my comprehension completely.
  The Secretary of State, in his opening remarks, said that none of the protests addressed themselves to the fact that a large pool of subsidies was now being created. The fact is that almost every burgh and city chamberlain worth his salt has been looking at the pool of subsidies in general actuarial terms for the last six years, during which time the growing burden of interest rates has made the position in respect of the housing accounts much more acute. In 1954–55 the deficit among local authorities in Scotland due to the increase in interest rates over the period 1951–55 was running at £5,112,000.
  When one looks at the matter in terms of weekly rent, it follows that 13s. 9d. on an average per family per week extra is being paid in Scotland by somebody simply because there has been an increase in interest rates. That is all. It is nothing to do with any change in building costs. It is nothing to do with management or repairs or factoring; it is simply because
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  the rate was raised from 3¾ per cent. to 5½ per cent. We have been made short of 13s. 9d. per house per week. What a pity we could not do away with that increase, and then there would be no need for this part of the Bill at all.
  Indeed, the Secretary of State followed that with his own Liberal inclinations when he said that he is glad that the interest rate from the Public Works Loan Board has dropped by ¼ per cent. and that it is going in the right direction—downwards. Clearly the Secretary of State sympathises with local authorities. He understands this problem. The problem is concerned with interest rates. It is not a problem primarily of rents but it is one of interest rates as such.
  It seems ridiculous that we should have complaints from hon. Members opposite about the local authorities because they seem to want a low rent policy and have got themselves into impossible difficulties of high deficits and high rates, when in fact hon. Members opposite are the cause of the trouble in local authority work in Scotland, brought about by the existence of the high interest rates which are borne by the community.
  A point which has not been raised—and I am surprised that it has not been emphasised—is the fact that the proposed subsidy rate cuts out completely the differential rate in housing. There is no differential rate for three-, four-, or five-apartment houses. In other words, the people in Scotland who have long been cursed with the "single end" and the room and kitchen are now to be faced with the fact that the Government are no longer giving a financial incentive to provide larger houses but are creating a state of affairs in which smaller houses may be built in which to house homeless people, because the subsidy is not adequate to enable three or four-apartment houses to be built.
  The curse of the small house in Scotland is still with us. If my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) were here, he would confirm that there must be about 200,000 or 300,000 one-apartment and two-apartment houses in Scotland. I do not think anybody could be pleased with a Bill which can encourage the continuance of that situation.
  Mr. Rankin: The figure is 300,000.
  Dr. Mabon: I thank my hon. Friend.
  I should like to turn from the first Part of the Bill relating to subsidies to the Part concerning town development. I listened closely to the argument of the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns. He was trying to argue—and to a certain extent I am following him—that because there are certain detailed features of this Bill suitable for Scotland, therefore the scheme in Scotland will succeed where the scheme in England has failed. I only wish that I could be as sanguine in this respect as he was.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central developed the argument that following the last Town Development Bill which was passed in 1952 the experience in England was that the problem of 1 million persons who were to be found accommodation has not been solved at all. About 2 per cent. or 3 per cent. of the problem has been tackled in four years. Whatever the hon. Gentleman may say, the elements of this Bill are essentially the same as the elements in the English Measure, and that being so, I cannot see how the Secretary of State for Scotland can believe that he will have any more success in this field than his English counterpart. I use the phrase "more success" in the Spenserian appreciation, and that is as a euphemism to avoid the obvious point about the Town Development Bill in 1952.
  Surely if the right hon. Gentleman wants this Part of the Bill to be a success, he clearly would have consulted all the local authorities and would know their views and opinions about it. He would know how many of them are attracted to be exporters and how many to be importers. I am surprised that the hon. Member for Pollok (Mr. George) said that Glasgow Corporation will welcome the Bill. The Corporation does not welcome the arrangement into which it was shanghaied on Cumbernauld. It did not like that at all. I can assure hon. Members that Greenock will not be an exporting authority under this Bill. I have it on the best advice that these provisions are not sufficiently attractive to tempt us to export our people.
  Glasgow certainly is not attracted to be an exporter under these conditions. I am sorry the hon. Member for Pollok, is not here, because he argued that this was an attractive proposition. My hon.
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  Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central said that there was a decreasing population in Glasgow with a lower valuation roll. The base which supports the contribution is steadily decreasing as the contribution rises in volume. I do not think that that point was answered fairly. One cannot ask an exporting authority with a diminishing supply of money to bear an increasing burden of debt.
  Then there is the point about receiving authorities. We have not had an adequate answer about Clause 14. We have a vague sense that the Secretary of State means well in that Clause. He mentioned 75 per cent. as an average and I cannot remember all the circumscriptions concerning this point, but I shall read his speech with interest tomorrow. So far as I gathered, the figure which he mentioned was 75 per cent. I have heard it declared by my local councillors and others that that is quite inadequate to be attractive to a receiving authority.
  The hon. Member for Pollok said that in this matter the receiving authority has to break even. I agree with the hon. Member; it has to break even before this action can be attractive to it. Under this provision I fear that receiving authorities will not break even.
  The charge which I want to make against the Secretary of State on this Bill is quite a clear and definite one. I fear that he has been very unfair to local authorities in regard to Part I of this Bill in the brief and hasty consultations with them on housing subsidies. I think he will pay for that in the sense that in future he will see that Part II will not work and that if only he had stopped for a moment and asked their advice—and being a new Secretary of State he was in a position to do so—he might have drafted a Bill which would have been a success.
  I think that his treatment of local authorities in Part I of the Bill is quite shameful. His predecessor gave local authorities only a fortnight in which to answer his questions and to comment on the proposals in the Bill. Surely the present Secretary of State could have been fairer in that regard, could have thought again and said, "Let the local authorities have a second look at the proposals." He could have listened to new argument on Part I.

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  In the last paragraph of its Report, the Working Party said:
  "Since the Secretary of State asked to have the results of our deliberations by 16th June, 1956, the Working Party submit this Report now and have deferred for consideration later, as necessary the other points referred to by the Secretary of State: overspill, high flats and remote area subsidy."
  The Working Party never had a chance to comment on Part II of the Bill. It has never been able to publish anything for the convenience of hon. Members, such as myself, who are interested in overspill or the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns, who, like Le Corbusier, is interested in the question of high flats.
  Nor have local authorities had a chance to discuss the Bill. That is why I think it is doomed to rejection by the Scottish electors. It is unfair on the question of the need for subsidies to be maintained at the pre-July, 1956, level. Although the objects of town development are very good, the Bill fails to recognise the rôle of new towns and to provide a reasonable solution for overspill, and accordingly is certain to fail.
  7.34 p.m.
  Mr. John MacLeod: I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mahon), if only because many of the people from my part of the country may have been responsible for overcrowding in Greenock. I shall not repeat the arguments which have been put already, particularly in the very able speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Pollok (Mr. George).
  We in the north of Scotland have nothing like the problems which hon. Members have in Greenock or in Glasgow constituencies, where they are very acute. We have not the problems of the overcrowded industrial belt, but of course we have our own housing problems and our hard cases which have to be tackled. It is satisfactory to note that we are beginning to catch up with the housing problem in my constituency.
  I hope that these Exchequer subsidies will meet the needs of Scotland. That remains to be seen. Of course, no one welcomes a reduction, but let us see what happens. As has been pointed out by various hon. Members, we at least come off better than England and Wales. Coming from an agricultural constituency,
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  I am glad to see that the Bill continues the arrangements for the provision of an extra Exchequer subsidy of £12 per annum over and above the basic subsidy provided for agricultural districts.
  Mr. Bence: Does the hon. Member believe in subsidies?
  Mr. MacLeod: Of course I believe in subsidies, where they are necessary. I believe that housing is a social necessity. We must provide subsidies in certain circumstances. I welcome the Clause, but I believe we have to be more realistic.
  Mr. Rankin: More Socialist.
  Mr. MacLeod: I also welcome Clause 4 in Part I of the Bill, which provides for an additional Exchequer subsidy corresponding to that payable under the existing law in respect of houses provided in remote areas.
  I hope to deal with that point later, that is, the overcrowding of the industrial belts and Glasgow's overspill problem. I am glad to see that in Clause 4:
  "… the Secretary of State may, with the consent of the Treasury, undertake to pay, and pay, for a period of sixty years (in addition to any other annual Exchequer contribution) an annual Exchequer contribution of such amount, and in respect of such of the houses so provided, as he considers just and reasonable."
  I hope that generous consideration will be given to the remote areas where it is so essential to keep our population. In those areas too high rents cannot be paid and the rates are already overburdened. Being honest, and there are many such people in all parties, hon. Members admit that rents are too low to enable properties to be kept in proper repair. I think most people will agree that we must be realistic and fair and to see that wherever possible people who do not require subsidies are not subsidised by others with lesser means.
  There is no doubt that all over the country there is a growing need for small houses. Here I would not altogether agree with the hon. Member for Greenock. Surely there is a problem in providing smaller houses for couples whose families have grown up and, in my area, for old retired agricultural workers. I should like the Secretary of State to encourage those types of houses as I think it would help to solve the

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  problem if we had a more even balance between the larger and the smaller houses.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: I do not think the hon. Member and I are in disagreement on this matter. I agree about small houses as such, but I feel that under this Measure if we need three- or four-apartment houses the financial incentive of a higher subsidy should be given. Since I agree with the hon. Member in the first part, perhaps he will follow me and agree with me in the second part.
  Mr. MacLeod: Perhaps it was not fair to give the impression that the hon. Member meant that type of house and not the one I speak about.
  The main reason why I am anxious to speak in this debate is on Part II of the Bill, which has been spoken about already so ably by my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus (Mr. ThorntonKemsley). I should like to ask the Secretary of State to explain the Government's views on this: how far are they prepared to go to deal with the problem of the overspill of Glasgow and our congested industrial belt? We are all aware of the Glasgow problem, but I have always contended that we are over-concentrating our population in the industrial belt, and I wonder how far the Bill will help to solve the problem.
  I fully agree that we shall have to deal with most of the overspill problem by providing accommodation and amenities near large existing industries, such as the local industries in the Clyde, shipbuilding and heavy engineering. But in the replanning of Glasgow and the Gorbals which we read about recently, not all the industries will be provided with sites in the newly-planned area and some will have to go further afield.
  Instead of building further new towns in our over-populated industrial belt—and it may be that if the problem is as acute as my hon. Friend the Member for Pollok suggested, with a figure of 300,000, we shall have to build a couple of new towns—surely we can encourage a wider distribution of population. We should try to make greater use of the existing facilities in our smaller burghs in other parts of the country out-with the congested area. As my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus has said, these burghs already have the
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  amenities and the administrative machinery, and surely these are capable of expansion.
  In his maiden speech in the House in 1945, on the Distribution of Industry Bill—
  Mr. Rankin: When was he elected?
  Mr. MacLeod: He was elected about four years before that speech, but he had been doing a very good job in the war effort, and that was the reason he could not make his maiden speech earlier.
  In his maiden speech he complained about this drift from the country to the town, pointing out that some of these burghs were too depenndent on one type of industry. Of course, that is the case in many burghs throughout Scotland today. He also pointed out that the trend of thought of the Barlow and Scott Reports had been towards the encouragement of development in smaller towns. I hope he still holds these views. Since those days we have had the Cairncross Report. I wonder whether the Secretary of State has looked at it recently or whether it is on the dusty shelves of St. Andrew's House. I hope the Bill will encourage him to look at it again.
  We can all think of many places in Scotland which could be developed, but naturally I am looking towards the Highlands and my own constituency. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) may think it a little far away, but let us consider such places as Dingwall, Invergordon and Tain in the eastern part of my constituency. I should like to dwell for a moment on the situation at Invergordon, which has been in the news recently. The Admiralty are closing the base at Invergordon. The hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) asked for some practical suggestions, and I will try to give them. At Invergordon we have a fine harbour, piers, slipways and buildings which will shortly become available. There are wonderful playing fields and sports grounds which have been developed by the Admiralty. Most important of all, it is in a Development Area.
  The right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) said that in his own Development Area no serious development was taking place. I am afraid that the problem is even more acute in the Development Area known as

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  the Highland Development Area, which contains a great part of the eastern seaboard of Ross-shire. In 1946 a very extensive survey was made by the planning consultant of the county, and shortly afterwards the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire, when he was Secretary of State, had plans produced for a new town at Invergordon in this development area. I would say, in passing, that the right hon. Gentleman did a great deal when he was Secretary of State to encourage industry to go to the remote parts of the country.
  I have glanced recently at the survey, which pointed out that we have here a deep-water natural harbour, a trunk road with an existing by-pass, a main railway line, airfields nearby, projected water schemes and hydro-electric schemes, together with a dry, sunny and frost-free climate, which should certainly be very attractive to Clydeside.
  The Cromarty Firth—and this is very important—is about the same distance from the rapidly developing North American ports as are Liverpool and Glasgow, and it is nearer than all the other British east coast ports.
  Mr. Steele: The hon. Member has said nothing to the credit of the nationalised public houses.
  Mr. MacLeod: I would not give anybody any credit for the nationalised public houses. Perhaps that is not quite fair; but I will not be drawn on that matter. They have improved recently, but that is not saying a great deal, because they are not very popular.
  I am fully aware that the development of these burghs will deal only with a fraction of the problem of the overspill of Glasgow and the industrial belt, but surely we can at least encourage those people with Highland connections to move to these burghs. Although the Highlands have helped to bring about this unhappy problem, they have already contributed greatly in manpower to places such as Greenock and Glasgow, and it is only right that in return Greenock and Glasgow should help the Highlands. By helping the Highlands they will help themselves, because in moving people and industry to these burghs in the Highlands they will help to stop the drift from the area which increases the problem we
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  are here trying to solve. I hope the Secretary of State will encourage this type of development, because it will be for the benefit of our whole nation.
  7.48 p.m.
  Mr. William Hamilton: I hope the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. John MacLeod) will forgive me if I do not follow him into the Highlands of Scotland. I want to get a bit nearer to the industrial belt, where the wealth is produced.
  This is one more Government attempt to solve the housing problem in Scotland. We have had a series of attempts since 1951, and this is what I might call another page in the Tory horror comic of Scottish housing. It has had a violent reception by the local authorities. From our point of view, there has been an encouraging unanimity among local authorities of all political persuasions. I want at the outset to give one or two figures for the Fife County Council to show why the local authorities are concerned about the proposals in the Bill as they are at the moment.
  The Fife County Council has provided me with figures for all types of houses affected by this Bill, and perhaps I may take the figures given for a four-apartment house. The estimated capital cost is rather less than the figure of £1,700 given in the Working Party's Report. The annual loan charges on that amount at 5¾ per cent, over 60 years are £101 2s. 5d.; insurance and management, £6; statutory repairs fund contribution, £8, making a total annual cost of £115 2s. 5d. As from August the Government subsidy will be £24, which means that the total annual cost will then be £91 2s. 5d. The current rent for a four-apartment house under the Fife County Council is £30 10s. The balance, which has to be met from the rates, is £60 12s. 5d. per annum.
  In this example, even if the £39 rent is charged—an increase of 30 per cent. on the existing rent—the deficit will still be well over £50 a year—£52 2s. 0d. to be exact. Therefore, even if the £39 rent is reached over a period of years, as is I think the Government's intention, the housing finance of Fife County Council and, I am sure, of many other local authorities, will be in danger of collapsing. Indeed, on those figures, an overwhelming case may now be made out

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  for an increase rather than a decrease in the existing subsidies.
  Too little play has been made of the effects on local authority finance of interest charges. It is no good the Government saying, "Local authority finances have got into an awful mess and it is time that they were more realistic about rents." It is the Government's policy in manipulating interest rates that has put those finances into such a state. In 1951–52, the last year of the Labour Government, the interest charges on the Fife County Council housing revenue account amounted to £264,934. In 1956–57 that figure had risen to £520,300—almost exactly double in interest charges alone over the last five or six years. In the last two years, the loan charges alone on a four-apartment house have increased from £75 to £106. That increase of over £30 is equivalent of 12s. a week increased rent to meet interest charges alone.
  That, of course, is, as my right hon. Friend has said, a gift to the moneylenders. Let us be under no illusion about that. That is what the Government want. When, in Committee, we were debating the Housing (Scotland) Bill, the present Minister of State, referring to the charges that had been made from our side, said that the charge had been made:
  "…that this Amendment was forcing people into the hands of the moneylenders and the building societies. I do not know that that is really a bad thing."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Scottish Standing Committee; 11th May, 1949; c. 2432.]
  Therefore, it is deliberate Government policy to make the local authorities, and through them their tenants, pay for the moneylending that is going on at the moment. This attempt to force up the rent to £39 is coming at a time when owner's rates will also have to be met by the tenants—after May of this year—and when the valuations will be frozen for the years up to 1961. The picture for the tenants is, quite simply, this. They will have increases in rates; they will have the responsibility of owner's rates after May of this year; they will undoubtedly be faced with increases in rate poundage due to rising valuations and rising local authority commitments. All that has to be collected within the narrow compass of local authority finance, brought about by the Government's policy.
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  What is the alleged purpose of the Government's Bill, as distinct from the Government's real but undeclared aim? Let us first look at the undeclared aim. I believe that is deliberately introduced to curtail council house building, and to attempt once again to make house building a speculators' paradise—to put cash into the moneylenders' maw.
  Lady Tweedsmuir Lady Tweedsmuir (Aberdeen, South) rose—
  Mr. Hamilton: That is all they are doing. The hon. Lady who is now trying to intervene referred, in 1949, to what she called "shiftless council tenants."
  Lady Tweedsmuir: As I have been challenged, perhaps I may say that that is a very old charge. It has followed me at every Election. It was a misprint in HANSARD—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] What I said was "shifting council tenants."
  Mr. Hamilton: On the contrary, if the hon. Lady will refer to her own speech on 10th May, 1949, she will see that she spoke of "a shiftless council tenant". Further than that, when she was taken up, she said that it was not quite what she meant. She retreated, but she still maintained the charge. Her hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Sir A. Gomme-Duncan), speaking after her, said that the Socialists were trying to create "the charity State", and that the council tenants were the people who were accepting the charity.
  I have in my hands at this moment a list of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite who are directors of companies which have been derated by 75 per cent. since 1929. In that way the industrialists on the other side get £10 million a year subsidy in Scotland—almost exactly the same amount as the council tenants get in housing subsidies. The farmers in Scotland get £30 million a year in subsidies. The entire wages bill of every Scottish farmer is paid by the taxpayers in subsidies.
  If hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite talk about subsidies in relation to council tenants, let them apply the principle elsewhere. They seem to be in no haste to apply it to themselves and to their own concerns. Even those who are not industrialists—and this, of course, applies to both sides—are taking family allowances. There is no means test for

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  those. That is a subsidy, is it not? And the party opposite increased those allowances.
  The simple fact is that the basic philosophy of hon. Members opposite is in terms of "the shiftless council tenant" and "the charity State". That, of course, applies only when these subsidies and this charity are dispensed to working class people; when they are dispensed to people who could well afford to do without it, that philosophy does not apply. Indeed, the argument against the farming subsidies is precisely opposite to that produced against housing subsidies from that side. The criticism of those subsidies is that the bulk of them go to farmers who could best afford to do without them. That is the argument used against farming subsidies.
  Of course, there are other quotations, but they are coming less frequently now, and will come less frequently after the Lewisham by-election, but we remember the President of the Board of Trade's stock phrase about treating them mean and making them keen. That is the philosophy which comes out quite suddenly and unexpectedly in various quarters on the other side of the House, and therein lies the real purpose of the Bill. Of course, the argument the Government produce in this House, and which they will produce in the country, is a plausible enough argument. Housing subsidies, they say, really ought not to be paid to those who can do without them. That sounds plausible enough, but it is not applied in the right way.
  Having said that—and I feel a lot better for having got it off my chest—I want now to make it clear that the paying out of public money in the form of subsidies is a sound Socialist principle, for which nobody on this side need apologise, and for which nobody on this side will, I hope, ever apologise. It is a sound Socialist principle, and a means by which the national wealth may be redistributed on a fair and equitable basis. That was one of the main points of the social legislation pushed through this House by the Labour Government between 1945 and 1951. Housing subsidies are an essential element in that redistribution principle, and they have the further advantage that they bring certain necessities of life within the means of millions of
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  folk who could not otherwise afford them. In so far as they do that, they produce not only advantages to the individual but social advantages to the community as a whole which far outweigh their financial cost.
  How far do housing subsidies today achieve those ends? I do not think anybody would deny that the social advantages to the community at large are evident throughout the United Kingdom. Housing subsidies have undoubtedly achieved a great deal in the last 30 or 40 years. Most of the houses built in Scotland since the First World War have been local authority houses.
  Mr. McInnes: The proportion is three to one.
  Mr. Hamilton: My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central tells us that the ratio is three to one. The local authorities have been the best landlords in Scotland during all that time. As was said in the document Housing Policy Scotland, published in November, 1953, their houses were
  "built to modern standards with good equipment and in good repair."
  The better environment created by those local authority houses has led to the living of fuller lives and the production of better citizens. There can be no argument about the social benefits derived from subsidised council housing.
  As regards the redistribution of the national wealth, housing subsidies have certainly played their part. But I should be the last to deny the existence of anomalies in the system and the subsidising of relatively well-off people by the less well-off. There is no doubt that such things exist. Speaking for myself, I cannot defend the paying of, say, a subsidised rent of 10s. a week by someone earning quite substantial wages whilst some people relatively worse off are helping to pay the subsidy which the better-off person is receiving. Nor, indeed, would any good Socialist, I think, defend that kind of anomaly.
  What we must do as a nation is to try and solve the problem while still maintaining the principle that housing is a social service. I would go further and say that, in the examination of housing finance which, as far as we can see, we shall face as a nation which has limited capital resources, we must have regard

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  to this principle. When we have competing claims throughout the whole economy for capital resources, we need to employ subsidies in order to produce the greatest social justice and advantage to the community. If we accept that, we must, I think, accept also, in the context of our present situation, that the hardest hit among our people today are the old folks and the young married couples with families growing up.
  I do not know what the exact figure is, but assuming that in the United Kingdom something like £100 million for housing subsidies is spent annually, is that money best spent on housing subsidies or would it be more to the social advantage to spend it on other things? For instance, it is well worth bearing in mind that, if there is a total of something like £100 million spent on housing subsidies in the community yearly, that could give an increase in pension for old couples of about 16s. a week. Is it better from the national point of view, from the point of view of social justice, to pay it out in housing subsidies or redistribute it in the form of social benefits of that kind? The Government do not think along those lines. We shall have to wait, not too long, I think, until we get another Government before we can bring about that kind of change.
  In the context of increasing, indeed, penal, interest charges, and in the context of the Government's determination to make these radical reductions in housing subsidies, I take the view that rebate schemes are the lesser of two evils as between them and schemes for differential rents. No doubt Labour-controlled authorities will do what they can to ease the burdens which will be put upon tenants as a result of Government policy.
  The Government has said that we must introduce an element of reality into rents payable by council tenants. But rents have been related to wages all along. Throughout the United Kingdom, the worker assesses his wages and his rent, and he sees them in one picture. If we are to introduce "an element of reality," to quote Government spokesmen, into the rent structure, then the workers will say, "All right, we will introduce 'an element of reality' into the wages structure."
  Nearly every industry today is undermanned; nearly every industry wants more men. The Government's philosophy
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  is that we need to equate supply and demand for houses and for everything else under the sun; and this applies equally to labour. If these rents are to go up, when Scots workers have been accustomed to relatively low rents, then they will certainly try to recompense themselves by wage demands.
  The Government's policy must be condemned for this reason if for no other. Seen in the economic context of our nation, in the light of the request for increased productivity, the request for wage and price stabilisation and for efforts to improve our ability to compete in foreign markets, this Bill will do nothing but give another vicious twist in the inflationary spiral which might have effects which the Government have not yet realised. That is the main argument against the proposals of the Bill. The workers who are, in the main, council house tenants must be convinced that the Government are "playing ball" with them and making conscious efforts to keep down the cost of living so that they can modify their wage demands and the inflationary spiral can be stopped. If they do not see evidence of that, no one can blame them if they seek to recompense themselves for the inflationary policies which the Government are now setting in motion.
  8.10 p.m.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: First, I must express my regret both to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the House that I was not present during the early stages of the debate. I had to attend the meeting of a Government Committee. In view of that, I greatly appreciate being called upon to speak.
  Unlike the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. Hamilton), I welcome the Bill. I would say to him, when he teases me about a very old speech, that the shifting council tenants have returned me at three subsequent Elections. Therefore, I suppose that they must have approved the speech.
  I welcome this Bill as a distinctive Scottish Bill, for two reasons. First, it proposes higher subsidies than those for England and Wales and, secondly, it not only covers the problem of slum clearance and overspill but it deals with our main problem, in Scotland, of overcrowding. It goes further, because the Secretary of

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  State has said that he is prepared to consider for the £24 subsidy any other category of genuine housing need, where the local authority is of opinion that it should be applied for subsidy purposes.
  I submit that that sums up the object of the Bill, which is to provide subsidies to relieve need. It is with that at the back of my mind that I want to tackle one limited aspect of this complex Bill. I think that most people, not least the right hon. and hon. Members opposite, have recognised on several occasions that high subsidies cannot go on for ever. Indeed, there was a Socialist Secretary of State, who was here when I first came to the House, Mr. Westwood—
  Mr. Rankin: It has been read out before.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: It bears repetition. When introducing the Housing (Scotland) Bill, 1946, he said:
  "I wish to make it clear that the contributions now proposed … are maxima, and it is the intention of the Government that they shall be reduced at the earliest opportunity." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th March, 1946; Vol. 420, c. 1706.]
  Mr. Willis: The Tory Research Office has been busy this week.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: It shows what an excellent speech it was, if it can be quoted now. I suggest to hon. Members that if they wait they might hear even better ones.
  Mr. Willis: We have heard them all.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I am well aware of the objections of three of the main cities of Scotland, although not, of course, of the City of Edinburgh. Since the 1930s I have understood that it has been accepted, at any rate in principle, by both Socialist and Tory Governments that Exchequer subsidies should be pooled. It has been accepted in principle that rents should be charged according to what a person can pay. It is quite true that in some instances, despite what was said—
  Mr. T. Fraser: We have had two previous housing subsidy Bills since the hon. Lady came to this House. Does she remember any occasion in 1946 or 1952 when any statement of policy has been made from either Front Bench in favour of all housing subsidies and rents being pooled?
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I have always understood that it has been accepted since the very early years that that was so.
  I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Pollok (Mr. George)—
  Mr. McInnes: Hear, hear.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I agree with most of his speech, but not with all of it. I disagree with his statement that, generally speaking, all council rents were too low. I believe it to be true that some families are finding that some council rents are too high. It is with this point that I wish to deal. One naturally realises, on the other hand, the problems of local authorities. Therefore, I think it strengthens the arguments which were so courageously supported by the hon. Member for Fife, West for economic rents. I imagine that he has in mind rebate schemes for those who are unable to pay. That has been applied in some places in England and Wales with considerable success.
  As I have said, it has been accepted in principle by former Socialist Secretaries of State. On the whole, we have a higher standard of living today. The local authorities express concern that the average rent foreshadowed in the Bill of £39 a year will be difficult to achieve in view of the accepted rent standards in Scotland. I was bold enough, at a meeting of the Scottish Standing Committee, which hon. Members may or may not recall, to suggest that the time had come in Scotland when men and women could pay a higher proportion of their weekly income in rent. Many hon. Members opposite did not like that at all, and they shouted for a great deal of the time. I was merely echoing what was said many years earlier by the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn). As hon. Members have obviously heard my next quotation, I will not weary the House.
  Mr. Willis: The Tory Central Office again. We are a little tired of it.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I should indeed be flattered if it were thought that the Tory Central Office had circulated my speech.
  In Scotland we spend a smaller proportion of income on shelter than do people in the rest of the country. An average council rent, excluding owner's rates so

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  as to make a proper comparison, is about half of that in England and Wales. It is true that earnings in Scotland are roughly 5 per cent. lower than those in England, but they are a little higher than those in Wales. In 1938, council house rents, including owner's rates, represented 10½ per cent. of average earnings; in 1949 they represented 6 per cent.; and in 1954, 4½ per cent. If in 1954 the proportion of income spent on the provision of shelter was 4½ per cent. I think that women who spent a large part of their time living in these houses would like to see a larger proportion spent on shelter if it meant that they could get a good house and if, of course, they knew exactly what went into the house in income.
  The Aberdeen average rent, including owner's rates, was, in 1954, for a four-room pre-war council house, £27 9s. 5d. For a four-room post-war council house, the rent was £30 4s. 2d. Therefore, the average rent for all council houses in Aberdeen, both post-war and pre-war is £29 4s. 6d. a year. The housing deficit in the City of Aberdeen is £163,435. The Working Party on Housing Subsidies in Scotland calculated that a net average rent of £32 10s. a year for all existing council houses in Aberdeen would almost enable the housing account to break even, and if we take the foreshadowed £39 a year, there would be a surplus of just above £6 a year which could be used for new building.
  There has been an example of a differential rent scheme put forward in the City of Aberdeen by the Aberdeen Progressives. As, so far as I know, no one has yet quoted any particular scheme, I should like to give an outline of what they had in mind. It was suggested that standard rents should be established for all tenants, subject to a rebate scheme which should only be operative after application by a tenant. As an example of standard rents, which altogether amounted to an increase of about 50 per cent., that for a two-roomed house would be £27 a year, for a three-roomed house £40, for a four-roomed house £45, and for a five-roomed house £48.
  The standard rent would be payable by all tenants where the household earnings amounted to £450 per annum. Rebates would be calculated proportionately. There is a detailed scheme, with which I
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  will not trouble the House, which among other things suggests that family allowances and war liability pensions should not be reckoned as income. It was also suggested that key workers and local authority officials occupying council houses should pay an economic rent.
  I think that that kind of scheme should be seriously considered, because I believe it would accord with general public opinion, and because it would ensure what is the whole object behind this Bill—that those in need get shelter at low rents, even lower than is the case today, in some cases. That, after all, is the whole object of Governments, in the beginning, in introducing subsidies at all.
  I cannot myself accept the view that this Bill will retard building, but I do accept the view that it may change the character of building. That is what we need, especially when we consider that of all the houses built since the war in Scotland more than 50 per cent. have four rooms and more than 40 per cent. have three rooms. Everyone knows that there is a need for houses for older people, for married people whose children have grown up or gone away, and indeed for single persons. We do not wish those people to be condemned for ever to living in some of the older properties of which we know.
  Mr. Fraser: At the beginning of her speech, the hon. Lady said that the really great problem which had to be solved was the problem of overcrowding. How do we solve that problem by building two-roomed houses?
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I am coming to that point, and if the hon. Gentleman will wait for a moment, he will see.
  I certainly think that the result of this Bill will be a greater choice for those who are seeking shelter, and that in that way, and taken together with another Bill which is now passing through Committee upstairs, it will mean that more accommodation will be released, and will ensure that it is properly and fully used, which is certainly not the case at the present time.
  To turn to the slum clearance problem in Aberdeen, the city has 6,200 houses that are due to go. It is planned over the next three years to replace 1,500 of these houses, and, in that case, it will

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  take from twelve to fifteen years to complete the scheme. Admittedly, it is necessary to rebuild in the centre of the city, for the obvious reasons of reducing the distance to and from work, ensuring that people are able to live in a district to which they have become accustomed, and what is very important, to stop the use of good agricultural land.
  Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley), I personally welcome the higher subsidy for multi-storied flats. I think the centres of some of the large cities of Scotland are particularly suitable for the erection of blocks like these. In Aberdeen itself, it is planned to erect as an experiment a ten-storey block. It is to have, I am delighted to say, central heating, which is a very necessary feature in that part of the world, and which reminds me of the first-class housing with central heating which I saw many years ago in Dundee. Those blocks are not cheap to build, but, on the other hand, I think they will bring a new way of living which will be very acceptable to our people in the cities. This particular block will be mainly of three-roomed flats, with a few of two rooms, and will take about a year to build in concrete and brick.
  I submit to the House, and I am speaking on a local point, that this is a realistic and imaginative approach to modern needs, and I therefore hope that the Aberdeen Town Council, which unfortunately is not of my political persuasion, will tackle the thorny problem of differential rents with equal courage. I think that this Bill as it stands is both realistic and fair, because it gives the power to local authorities to meet real need for shelter, and allows them to develop these great cities in the way in which, whatever the political views of the local authority, they have very much at heart.
  8.25 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: During the course of this debate, I have noticed with interest how easily some hon. Members opposite have been moving the citizens of Glasgow around. Unlike myself and others of my hon. Friends, they do not represent Glasgow divisions, and so they fail to realise that hundreds of thousands of her citizens believe not only
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  that they belong to Glasgow, but that Glasgow belongs to them. Consequently, when it comes to shifting them, it will require a much greater inducement than is presented in the Bill we are now discussing.
  The second intriguing point we have heard tonight, and I have heard many hon. Members opposite referring to it, is this lament for the drift from the country to the town. I do not know how many Highlanders are in my division, but there are a great many of them, and most of their forbears came to Glasgow because they were evicted from their homes and homesteads by Tory landlords. Now, the Tories are anxious to reverse that process, but again I say that the process will not be reversed by the provisions of the Clauses contained in this Bill.
  Before I go any further, I should like to refer to a remark made by the Secretary of State when introducing the Bill. He referred to the fact that, if I followed him correctly, East Kilbride would be a town that would receive some of Glasgow's overspill.
  Mr. McInnes: The right hon. Gentleman was more explicit than that. He said it was designed to do this.
  Mr. Rankin: I thought he used the word "designed", but I did not want to attribute too precise a meaning to what he said.
  I was interested, because in the debate on the Queen's Speech of the 7th November, I raised exactly this point with the then Secretary of State, and this is the answer which appears in column 243 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for that date:
  "Since the housing in East Kilbride of any tenants from Glasgow's waiting list, or any tenant who vacates a Glasgow Corporation house, is a direct contribution to Glasgow's housing problem, it would seem that there is a great deal of scope for balancing housing needs with available employment. While no actual agreement has been reached between them, I will do all I can to encourage this method, and I intend to pursue the matter with the parties concerned."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th November, 1956; Vol. 560, cc. 243–4.]
  That was in November. Are we then to understand that an actual agreement has been reached since November, and that this problem of relieving part of Glasgow's overspill has now been finally settled between the new town and the corporation of Glasgow? If I followed the Secretary of State correctly, that is

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  what he said tonight, and I hope that when the Under-Secretary comes to reply, he will tell us when that agreement was actually made.
  I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Pollok (Mr. George) is not in his place, because I want to say one or two things about his speech. His criticism was fairly put, but it is not a criticism which I can accept, although it was an accusation against the Prime Minister, the Leader of his own party, who, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, introduced this policy of higher interest rates in order to prevent inflation. The hon. Member for Pollok said that this policy of high interest rates, which was a policy directed at local authorities as well as individuals, had had no effect upon the local authorities because, he said, the interest rates which were being charged now to the local authorities were having no effect whatsoever on the position. In effect the hon. Gentleman was telling the Prime Minister that his policy had failed.
  I dissent from that conclusion, and I want to produce one or two proofs of the view I take. I have here a memorandum from the Association of County Councils in Scotland, the Convention of Royal Burghs, and the Corporations of Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee. These are the men who are experienced in the handling of the affairs of our towns and cities and counties. These councillors are unanimously of the view that the policy of increasing the cost of money has proved very satisfactory indeed, and will continue to prove effective in slowing down the rate of house building. That is what it was designed for.
  Despite what the hon. Gentleman the Member for Pollok said, the memorandum, after dealing with the rise in the rates, says:
  "It will be observed that the loan charges on a four-apartment house estimated to cost £1,774 have increased from £74 14s. 8d. in March, 1955, to £105 13s. 11d. at present, an increase of £30 19s. 3d. per house."
  The hon. Member for Pollok dismisses that as of being of no account whatsoever.
  Let us look at the effect on the individual of this increase in the price of money. I have cited the effect on the local authority. The figures which I am
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  about to give are figures which are vouched for by a chartered accountant. I deal with a house which cost the purchaser £2,500, on which no deposit is necessary, and on which one can get the full advance at a cost of 6 per cent.
  These are the costs which would accrue if one had to pay for a house of that type. The annual instalments of principal and interest is £217 19s. 6d., and insurance £2 16s. 3d. A sum of £36 6s. is allowed for rates and water, and the moderate sum of £10 for repairs, making a yearly charge of £267 1s. 6d. to meet for a house of three bedrooms, a sitting room and kitchen. Nobody will allege that that type of house is too large for a family at the present time. That means a total weekly cost of £5 2s. 9d. with a weekly instalment to be met of £4 3s. 10d.
  It was stated from the benches opposite that average earnings in Great Britain today were 217s. There are 21 million people working in the country. Therefore, these figures show that there are 21 million who have no earthly chance of ever occupying a house of that kind unless they are helped by the community. Far more adequate subsidies are necessary if this type of house is to become even a possibility for half the population of Great Britain.
  The House should notice that the total interest charge which will have to be met on that house over 20 years is £1,859 5s. 2d. Therefore, by the time the owner has discharged his obligation he has repaid £4,359 5s. 2d. for a £2,500 house. The problem that we face tonight is primarily an interest problem and that problem has been created by the Government. Having created it, they go to the local authorities who are faced with meeting it and say, "We cannot afford to pay you the subsidies that are necessary to enable people to live this type of house." When we fought the last Election the former Prime Minister, then Leader of the Tory Party, said that one of that party's aims was to create a property-owning democracy. In the conditions which have been fostered by the Tory Government since they came to power, a property owning democracy in Great Britain is now a complete impossibility. That possibility lies buried with other promises, like that of a lower cost of living, which the party opposite made at the last Election.

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  If the local authority built and paid for that same house over 60 years it would carry an interest charge of £6,781 5s. 7d., with a total payment of £9,281. It is absurd to try to ignore the impact of interest charges on our housing situation. Therefore, because of that impact it is essential that the Government should use the total of the national income and redistribute it to make it possible for people to get into these houses at rents which they can pay.
  The system is leading to grotesque results. At the present moment it takes £1,000 to put one single individual into a new town. Glasgow wants six new towns. One single town of 50,000 people would therefore cost £50 million. That is the price that would have to be met, and that is the reason why the Government are seeking to get rid of the moral obligation which rests on them to try to find new homes for 300,000 people in the city of Glasgow at the present moment who have no chance of getting a new home within the city. It is a vast problem. If we are to have six new towns, as we must have, a total capital outlay of £300 million is necessary. It has become fantastic. The people who are responsible for that situation are the people who have pushed up the price of money to its present unprecedented cost and who are now taking a little credit because it has fallen by ¼ per cent. in the last two days.
  Because of that appalling cost to build a new town, it is becoming cheaper for the city of Glasgow to pay £10,000 for an acre of land in the city in order to re-house a little handful of the 300,000 who are needing houses. Ten thousand pounds is being paid now for an acre of land in the city. The hon. Member for Cathcart (Mr. J. Henderson) was speaking a little earlier of clearing the north and south banks of the Clyde—at £10,000 an acre—and the Government condemn us when we ask for a bigger subsidy than £24 for a house. They are not even logical. Their attitude is stupid. I do not like using such words—but it is positively stupid. The figure of £10,000 is now being paid for one acre of land in the part of Glasgow where I live.
  I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) wants to say a word or two, and I shall
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  therefore, conclude with a brief observation about the general policy of the Government in this matter. I say that it is stupid. So it is, because the building of houses ought to be the creation of wealth. The more houses we build the wealthier we should become. That is not an act of inflation. The real act of inflation is being carried out in the Rent Bill by which we are transferring money into the hands of a small number of people without creating value for it.
  Here we can create a value, and in my view that value could represent currency. It could carry a currency issue in the same way as engineering products and every other type of human endeavour. We could issue money on the strength of the wealth we create in housing, and by using that as a pool, we could loan money to the local authorities at merely a working rate of interest. In that way we could break one of the biggest props of the capitalist society, the interest-bearing section, which is fattening on the slums of this country at the present time.
  Mr. George Mr. George rose—
  Mr. Rankin: I am sorry, but I cannot give way to the hon. Gentleman because I shall get into trouble with my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East if I do so. We can solve this problem without inflicting any extra charge on the common purse, and that is by using as the basis of a loan a pool—
  Mr. George: It is already mortgaged.
  Mr. Rankin: It is not. It can carry more, and the hon. Gentleman knows this very well. When we approach a solution of this problem along those lines, we shall make an infinitely greater contribution to the solution of the housing problem than the present Bill will do.
  8.47 p.m.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: We have had a Bill in each of three Sessions, all ostensibly directed towards solving our housing problem. Does nobody ever notice that the same thing happens in every Parliament throughout the world in each of its Sessions? It is because this housing problem concerns all Western civilisation wherever there has been an industrial revolution, and it becomes worse as the speed of that industrial revolution is stimulated.

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  The hon. Member for Pollok (Mr. George) is an able engineer, and during his lifetime he has seen, as we all have seen, technological development in different spheres of production and processing. When the first war ended, subsidies were given to induce private building contractors to provide houses for sale, as they could not provide houses for letting. Then the railways had to be recapitalised after the First World War, and a subsidy was provided in the form of a huge loan—I think it was £26 million—by a subsidiary set up by the Bank of England. Later shipbuilding was given a subsidy because plant and equipment could not be replaced out of the depreciation provisions.
  So a system of subsidies has been used in the sphere of economic activity where a balanced production cannot be obtained on a commercial basis. That is why we pay subsidies to agriculture. We assume a general level of food prices in this country compared with imports from abroad. Our farmers cannot produce at those prices, so we provide them with a subsidy because they cannot conform to the commercial prices and processes of the rest of the world. So we give them a subsidy to enable them to do that. We do exactly the same in connection with houses.
  There is a story which I should like to tell to hon. Members: I do not know whether I have ever told it in the House before. It is about a building contractor. I knew the daughter of an old gentleman who in 1904 was building six-room houses at £125 each. As a matter of fact, I was looking at one of those houses this weekend. They had a back and a front garden with iron railings which the Government pinched during the war. None of them had a bathroom, and they were built for letting.
  The eldest son of that building contractor was a motor engineer. He was working in Coventry engaged on making a motor car costing £800 to build and which needed a mechanic to drive it. It used to break down after every ten miles. In 1936, the son was carrying on his father's business and was building houses in the West Country at £625 each. I was a production engineer in the motor industry and in those days we were turning out a 10 h.p. car that cost £35 to make.
  We have been able to use a technology which has created a price-wage level
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  which puts the production of houses for letting outside the field of commercial practice. I challenge any building contractor, from Wimpey's downwards, to build for letting either semi-detached or terrace houses in the provinces, after clearing the land and conforming to recognised orthodox commercial practice, without subsidies or grants. I bet that they would not let one of them and that in two years' time they would be filing their petition in bankruptcy.
  We reached that stage before the war. I knew a contractor who put up a street of houses. I said to him, "I will bet that you do not let one of those houses at that figure," and he did not. Some of us, after he had filed his petition in bankruptcy, bought one of those houses. It is impossible to build houses to let. It is nonsense to bring in Bills of this sort with the idea that by so doing we can solve our housing problem. We cannot solve the housing problem by fiddling with the rent structure, with subsidies or with anything else. We have to realise that house-building for letting to ordinary people is no longer a commercial proposition. If it were, building contractors would obviously be building houses to let.
  In the same way, cereal production is not a commercial proposition on the farms. We only get such production because we give farmers a ploughing grant. The production of fat cattle in the quantities in which we need them is not a commercial proposition in face of Australian and New Zealand competition. The farmers produce the fat cattle because we give them a calf subsidy per live cwt.
  We shall never get houses built for letting in this country by anybody unless we give a subsidy. If we take away the house-building subsidy then house building will slacken off and finally stop. The cost of everything produced in this country must be reckoned in terms of what the people engaged in production have to pay for what they use, either in processing or in order to be around to use those processes. A house is one of those things.
  I know that it is the argument of many people that we have too much purchasing power to use in purchasing consumer goods and that if we can take more money out of the pockets of the people by making them pay more rent

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  it does not matter whether or not it feeds the moneylenders; so long as it goes to them it eventually goes back into the banks, and perhaps is cancelled out or used to increase the liquidity of the banks.
  A shrinkage in demand for consumer goods is caused unless the people who are using houses have the power to demand higher rewards for the function they are performing, in order to compensate for the higher rents they have to pay. If those people who have to pay higher rents cannot get higher rewards they will spend less money on consumer goods.
  Between the wars I read several national surveys which showed the rate of malnutrition, and it was clear that the greatest degree of malnutrition was found where people were paying the highest rents. In South Wales it was not the people who were living in cheap, back-to-back houses and paying 2s. 6d. or 3s. a week who suffered from malnutrition; neither was it their children. The greatest degree of malnutrition occurred amongst owner-occupiers and people living in local authority houses and paying high rents. Once the rents are driven up the prices of consumer products have to be brought down, or the people will do without them.
  The former Economic Secretary to the Treasury expounded Boyle's law to the House. My hon. Friends will remember him propounding the theory. His point was that if we make people pay more by way of Purchase Tax and Income Tax, provided that they have not the economic power to recoup by their efforts the extra taxes that they have to pay, and provided that they have to pay extra rents, the demand for consumer goods is reduced, and a deflationary situation is created.
  I could continue for a long time on this theme, but my right hon. Friend wants to speak. I wanted to speak because, although I admired parts of the speech of the hon. Member for Pollok, I did not accept his suggestion that subsidies were intended only for poor people. At one time it may have been true, but that is not so now. I had a fairly good job when I got a subsidy of £110 for my house in Newport. I was not poor, and I have never pleaded poverty, but I got
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  a subsidy of £110, which is more than any council tenant in Newport ever got. I got it as an owner-occupier, and it was paid because building contractors could not do the job unless they received the benefit of it. That is what subsidies are for; they are producer subsidies, not consumer subsidies.
  I enjoyed the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. Hamilton) more than any other speech this evening. I thought that he hit the nail right on the head. In discussing the question of differential rents and rebate schemes we have to take into consideration the incidence of taxation.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) referred to a differential rent scheme. I have experience of such a scheme, and I never saw such a fantastic thing in all my life. A man earning £16 a week had to pay a rent of 59s. a week, but it was interesting to see what he was paying in Income Tax because he had no children. The authority had not taken into consideration the man's Income Tax payments. One should take into consideration cases where a man and wife are both working as against cases where a man is working and his wife is not. One must have regard to the Income Tax payments by the higher income groups; otherwise the burden of the man paying on the basis of the higher income is doubled, and that is surely a disincentive.
  I suppose it is a waste of time to ask the Secretary of State to take the Bill away. I do not know what sort of a time he has experienced on the Rent Bill, but I should hope that he has had a very rough time. I hope that this Bill will be considered by a Committee of the whole House, or, failing that, by the Scottish Grand Committee. If it goes before the Scottish Grand Committee, I can assure the Secretary of State that my constituents and my burgh council, who have already made representations to him on this matter, will expect me to be very awkward and persistent. They will expect me to get the Bill thrown out, and I shall do my best, with my colleagues, to get it thrown out.
  9.1 p.m.
  Mr. Thomas Fraser: This has been a very interesting debate. Several hon. Members opposite have welcomed the Bill while asserting that it will help

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  in the solution of the housing problem in Scotland, but every hon. Member who has made that assertion has taken great care not to try to show us in what way the passage of the Bill will help in solving the housing problem in Scotland.
  All that the Bill will do will be to transfer a burden upon the Exchequer to the local authorities. Hon. Members opposite have expressed the hope that the local authorities will handle this additional burden by passing it to the tenants of council houses. That is what it adds up to, and I think that is what the Bill is about.
  There is nothing in the Bill about rents, but the Secretary of State has introduced a Bill the purpose of which is, as I have described, to increase the burden on the local authorities, in the hope that the local authorities will pass the burden not so much to the ratepayers as such, but to those who happen to occupy local authority houses.
  The Secretary of State repeated what we have heard so often since the Minister of Housing and Local Government made his first statement on reduced subsidies in November, 1955. He said that subsidies should not be given to those who do not need them. Is that a principle or is it not? Do hon. Members opposite stand by that as a principle? One evening last week, quite late—hon. Members for the most part were not in their places—I sat here when we passed a new Regulation made by the Secretary of State in order to provide a subsidy for farmers for building silos.
  Mr. Bence: There was a subsidy for cowsheds not long ago.
  Mr. Fraser: The Government introduced this Measure under an Act that was passed a short time ago, the purpose of which is to give to the farmers of this country a grant of 50 per cent. towards the cost of building silos. Does anybody suggest that this grant should be paid only to those farmers who need the subsidy? Of course not. We on these benches did not oppose the passage of that Statutory Instrument making grants to farmers. We gave the Instrument our blessing; we supported the subsidy. We are consistent. We accept the justice of subsidies, farm subsidies as well as housing subsidies and other subsidies which seek to improve the social
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  standing and social standard of our people.
  As I heard one of my hon. Friends interject, there was a subsidy for pigstys a little time ago.
  Mr. Bence: For cowsheds.
  Mr. Fraser: I prefer the illustration of pigstys. The Minister of Agriculture has announced that, in addition to subsidies running at over £200 million a year, he is introducing new subsidies for which we have yet to get the legislation. They provide subsidies to farmers for a whole wide range of capital works on the farm. They will apply to cowsheds as well as to pigstys, but will they be payable only to farmers who need the subsidies? What has the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East (Sir G. Lloyd) to say about the subsidies to all his friends who are farmers and support hon. Members opposite?
  Sir G. Lloyd: Since the hon. Member has asked me, I think he will remember —as my hon. Friend will and I remember —that I said subsidised houses should not be provided for those who did not need them.
  Mr. Fraser: No, but subsidised houses for farmers pigs? It is not the pigs which pay for the pigstys but the farmers.
  Sir G. Lloyd: The argument is illogical.
  Mr. Fraser: Hon. Members opposite will have to take a lesson in logic. If they are to go round the country saying that subsidies are to be paid only to those who need them and they drive that principle far enough—
  Mr. George: I read a quotation from a circular issued under the Greenwood Act of 1930, by the late Mr. Arthur Greenwood, which stated that subsidies should be paid only to those who need them and only so long as they need them.
  Mr. Fraser: I am not going to have an argument with the hon. Member about what the late Mr. Arthur Greenwood said in a circular in 1930. The hon. Member has quoted something from a circular. I have not read the circular and do not know the context in which that was said. I am not going to dispute that the hon. Member has put the correct interpretation upon it; I do not know.

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  However, I shall come at once to the principle upon which housing subsidies have been based since the war and leave with the Secretary of State and the Joint Under-Secretary and hon. Members opposite all I have said about other subsidies. To complete the sentence I had started when the hon. Member for Pollok (Mr. George) interrupted me—I do not quarrel about that—if hon. Members opposite drive us too far on the question of paying subsidies only to those who need them, we may well make matters very awkward for hon. Members opposite when they endeavour to make available subsidies to people who do not necessarily need them, but who are very well known to be their political friends.
  The burden of the argument of the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrew, East was that local authorities kept down council rents because of the politics in the matter, because they were afraid to increase rents of people whose votes they would be looking for. Does the hon. and gallant Member ask for the votes of the farmers of East Renfrew and tell them that he supports subsidies for them whether they need them or not, or does he say that he would like a means test applied? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] The Secretary of State said in his opening speech that he wants a rent of £39 a year, or 15s. a week. I hope he is happy with some of the local authorities which have been increasing their rents recently.
  I hope that the efforts of Dumfries County Council, a good Tory Council, have satisfied him. According to the most reputable newspapers in Scotland, on 9th January last Dumfries County Council raised their rents to £95 a year, irrespective of the size or location of the house. To that there has to be added the rates. According to the Press reports, the average in Dumfries will be £2 15s. a week. That is in a rural county with many agricultural workers who have a wage of £6-odd a week. Is that what the Secretary of State wants? Did he know about this increase in rent? I know that he was very preoccupied about this time, because this meeting of the Dumfries County Council took place on the day that Sir Anthony Eden resigned.
  Mr. Thomas Oswald: Ah, significant!
  Mr. Fraser: For the next day or two the right hon. Gentleman was very preoccupied. We do not know what was in his mind.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is my hon. Friend aware that in Ayrshire County Council, just a short distance from the boundary line, tenants are paying only one-fifth of the rent which tenants in Dumfries are paying?
  Mr. Fraser: I am not surprised about that since I have learned from the miners that the increase in rent to £95 represents an increase of 133 per cent. That is a nice little increase—and all that before the Bill had even been published. I do not know what the rents in Dumfriesshire will be after this Bill has appeared. I accept my hon. Friend's word about the Ayrshire rents, because I do not know what they are. I should not have known what were the rents in Dumfriesshire but for the Scotsman and the Glasgow Herald and other reputable Scottish journals, which told me what the Dumfries County Council had been doing.
  So much has been said about the principle underlying subsidy rates that I should like to quote what the right hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. J. Stuart) said in moving the Second Reading of the Housing (Scotland) Bill in 1952. He said:
  "As the House will be aware, the necessity for this Bill arose out of the decision to increase the rate of interest charged on the longer dated loans of the Public Works Loan Board. The Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the first increase on 8th November, 1951."
  I think he became Chancellor on 7th November, 1951.
  "when the rate was raised from 3 per cent. to 3¾ per cent., and then on 9th February of this year it was raised from 3¾ per cent. to 4¼ per cent. The Chancellor at that time, realising that this would be very disturbing to local authorities' finances and the housing accounts, agreed that a review of the subsidy arrangements for housing would be undertaken by the Government. That has been done."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd July, 1952; Vol. 503, c. 624.]
  The right hon. Member should have been advised by his hon. Friend the Member for Pollok, who says that local authorities are not interested in the housing interest rates.
  Nevertheless, the whole case for the Housing (Scotland) Bill in 1952 was that the interest rate on the money borrowed

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  by the local authorities to build houses had increased by 1¼ per cent. and that this had increased the annual burden of the house by £20. The subsidies were increased by £19 5s. for four-apartment house. That was the point of the Bill in 1952. Since 1952 the interest rates have been increased by another 1¼ per cent. Do we get another £20 increase in subsidy? No—this time, they take it off. That is exactly what has happened.
  In 1952 the Secretary of State kept referring to 1946, and hon. Members on the benches opposite said, of course, that the Secretary of State had been more generous than the Labour Government had been in 1946. Let us look at what happened in 1946. The capital cost of the house was, on average, assumed to be £1,130. Annual loan charge, management, maintenance, etc., made a total annual burden of £56 a year. There was an assumed of rent of £26 a year, leaving a deficit of £30 a year which was met by an Exchequer subsidy of £23 and a rate contribution of £7. That is what happened under a Labour Government in 1946.
  In 1952, the cost of the house, it was said, had gone up to £1,635. The Secretary of State and the Joint Under-Secretary explained very patiently—and, in fairness to them, I am bound to say that they explained it over and over in Committee—that the annual burden then was £98 10s. They assumed a rent of £42—that was in 1952; and we said that that was too high—leaving a deficit of £56 10s. which was met by an Exchequer grant of £42 5s. and a rate contribution of £14 5s. But the Secretary of State does not want this rent of £42; he now wants a rent of £39. But let us see what happens.
  The house that is to be built with the subsidy provided by this Bill will cost, on average—I think that these are official figures from the Scottish Office—£1,774. I must say that I have been looking up local authority figures and have not yet found any local authority which has been able to build a house for as little as that, including the cost of land and services. However, let us take the figure of £1,774. The annual burden at 5¾ per cent.—and that was the rate of interest until today, and until today that has been the rate of interest since this subsidy was announced;
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  it has now taken a steep drop to 5½ per cent.—is about £117. There is an Exchequer subsidy of £24, so the local authority has to find £93. If the tenant is not to pay a rent of £93, someone has to subsidise him.
  Hon. Members opposite say that it is those people who live in the local authority houses that have been built in the last 36 years who should subsidise them—not the ratepayer or the taxpayer. What cannot be denied is that the tenant has to be subsidised if he does not pay a rent of £93. The Secretary of State suggested—or his predecessor suggested, and I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman repeated it—that there should be a rate contribution broadly equal to one-third of the Exchequer contribution. Therefore, let us assume a rate contribution of £8. That reduces the £93 to £85. I must say that I thought that that was too high, but the Dumfries County Council now have rents of £95.
  All that is true if we stick to the principles that have been applied up to now, but, for some reason or other, we have decided to depart from the basis used in calculating the subsidy in 1946, under the Labour Government, and from the basis on which the subsidy was calculated in 1952, under a Tory Government. We now calculate it on some other basis—or do we? Do we calculate it at all? We have not been told on what basis this subsidy of £24 has been calculated. We have had no calculation whatsoever. I should very much like the Joint Under-Secretary, in seeking to justify the Bill, to tell us the justification for a figure of £24. How did they arrive at it? In 1952, they told us how they arrived at the then subsidy. We were able to say how we arrived at the subsidy in 1946. But no one has told us how this new subsidy of £24 was ever arrived at. It is just a figure, a guess, a shot in the dark. I do not know—perhaps it is the most that the previous Secretary of State could get from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Let us see what effect this interest rate has on housing finance. The hon. Member for Pollok tells us that it is quite unimportant, that local authorities are not interested in the rate of interest charged on the money they borrow. It does not make any difference, so he tried to tell us.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: His town council protested.
  Mr. Fraser: I am not a bit surprised, and I should hope that the town council will protest about his speech today.
  Mr. George: The hon. Member is misrepresenting what I said. I said that local authorities were not concerned what the rate of interest was in any one week or in any one month; they look at it over the year and year by year.
  Mr. Fraser: If the hon. Member for Pollok is saying that local authorities are not interested in the rate of interest they pay on moneys they borrow at the time they borrow the money, then I do not believe him.
  Mr. George: I did not say that.
  Mr. Fraser: I know the hon. Gentleman did not say that, but he said nothing with any meaning at all when he talked about rates of interest. When he said local authorities were interested only in what they paid over all, that has no meaning, because they do not borrow money over all at any one time; they borrow it over a period of sixty years, and they are interested in what they pay for the money they are borrowing now to pay for the houses they are building now.
  Taking the present house building cost of £1,774, by increasing the interest rate from 3 per cent. to 5¾ per cent. the Government have increased the annual burden of the house by no less than £42. I have listened with great care to what my hon. Friends have said about the effect of interest rates. Taking this notional house costing £1,774, that has to be paid for over sixty years, and working it out over sixty years it is just about £30 a year. That does not seem very much for a house which costs £1,774. But when one adds the interest rate, that sum of £30 jumps to £106, which means there is £76 for the money lender. Of every 20s. paid by the local authority for that house, 6s. is for the house and 14s. goes to the money lender. That is the economics of Bedlam.
  Who subsidises whom? Is it the taxpayer and the ratepayer who subsidise the council tenant, or are not all three of them being fleeced to satisfy the money lender? That is how I see it.
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  If this rent of £84 or £93 is not to be paid, which I think it is not, and if we have the rent of £39 which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State asks for, it is going to be not only a matter of doubling the rent of some houses after the deduction of owners' rates, but trebling the rent of some. We have had quoted today cases where they will have to be multiplied some five times in order to get the rent of £39. A study of the Report of the Working Party on Housing Subsidies in Scotland shows that the rents of the existing stock of local authority houses have to be raised to about that level before they themselves cease to be a drain on the ratepayer.
  I am not here saying that rents should not be increased. Indeed, I would say that local authority rents in my own county of Lanarkshire would have to be increased, even without the Bill. I say at once that the rents of the existing houses will have to be raised in order to reduce the burden of the housing rate which is now 5s. 8d. in the £; but by imposing this new burden the right hon. Gentleman is making it impossible for the Lanark County Council to reduce the housing rate.
  It is quite wrong to assume that we have a vast pool of houses the rents of which have to be increased by only 2d., 3d., 5d. or 7d. to meet the deficit which will arise under the Bill. That is on the assumption of a certain rate of house-building by particular local authorities. The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that there are many local authorities in Scotland which will not build one single house under these subsidies. Their tenants will not have to pay any of this additional burden.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Gourock.
  Mr. Fraser: That is in the constituency of the Secretary of State. There are many Tory councils in Scotland which have already stopped building houses because of the high cost of building on existing subsidy rates. It is the local authorities with a dreadful housing problem—a dreadful problem of overcrowding, slums, unfit houses and the like—which need to go on building if they are to play fair by the people they represent, which have to incur this tremendous burden. They will have to

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  pass it on to their tenants. This is a national problem. This is a social service which should be borne in good part by the State, by all of us. We all have to make our contribution.
  It has not passed the notice of a lot of people in Scotland—it certainly has not escaped my notice—that the Government have taken this turn in favour of putting new burdens upon the local authorities, new burdens upon the ratepayers, since they got the landlord relieved of the responsibility of paying rates. That is what they have done. They were guilty of sharp practice when they passed the Bill in 1954.
  We said on many occasions that we could have borne to consider the proposition to abolish owners rates if we could be assured of the circumstances of the whole of the plan, if the Government would have recognised the narrow basis of rating in Scotland on which they were lectured by the Sorn Committee; but they narrowed the basis of local rating still further. Having narrowed the basis and put all rating on to the occupiers of properties—and to a considerable extent in Scotland that means on to the occupiers of houses—they are now transferring more and more burdens to these people.
  It is madness at this time to introduce a flat rates subsidy in place of the differential subsidy related to the size of houses. I challenged the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir), when she was speaking, about being guilty of a contradiction. She asked me to be patient and said she would come to the point. I was patient, but she failed to come to the point. She did not deal with the problem of overcrowding.
  She called our attention to the problem of overcrowding and to the Report of the Working Party and then she proceeded to ask for more small houses in order to solve the problem of overcrowding.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: As I have been challenged, perhaps I may say—
  Mr. Fraser: No. I am sorry. The hon. Lady said that she would answer my question. She failed to answer the question. She completed her speech and walked out of the Chamber. Now she has come back, but I think that I had better finish my speech uninterruped.
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  In any case, the Secretary of State, in introducing a flat rate subsidy to financially severely harassed local authorities, is surely giving them a plain encouragement to cut their costs by building smaller houses. Will the Joint Under-Secretary say if that is what the Government want? If the Government do not want smaller houses, how on earth can they justify departing from the differential subsidy relating to the size of the house? That seems to me to be again the economics of Bedlam.
  I had wished to say something about the town development part of the Bill, but I have not the time. I think myself that Glasgow needs most a number of new towns to deal with her problem—new towns to be built under the New Towns Act, 1946. However, I have never opposed and I do not now oppose the suggestion that some help should be given to solving Glasgow's overspill problem by building up existing communities, and I do not know that any of my hon. Friends have ever done so. We think that we should try to help all we can in all ways, including building new towns.
  Perhaps the Joint Under-Secretary will be able to tell us whether we are to have any more new towns under his Government. We think that they could help, and that some help could also be given by town development, but when I think of the Secretary of State's proposals, and, indeed, of the way in which he has dealt with the Cumbernauld project, it seems to me that he had already anticipated this Bill. He has made Part II of the Bill—the whole town development part—quite unnecessary, because he showed to us, in settling the Cumbernauld issue, that all the powers were there already.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes), my right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirling-shire (Mr. Woodburn) and the hon. Member for North Angus (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) have called attention to the weakness of this part of the Bill. If we are to get our overspill from Glasgow accommodated in other existing communities by way of town development, we shall have to have assistance from central funds in order to finance these industrial developments and transfers. As far as I can see, the Financial Resolution makes no adequate provision for that, and the terms of the Bill would seem to me to be

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  inadequate to help us in that regard. Therefore, I would say to the Joint Under-Secretary that it would help us if he would say a word about the financial provisions and the Money Resolution, because we may feel obliged to say a word or two about it later on, unless the hon. Gentleman can satisfy us now.
  This Bill seems to us to make no contribution whatever to the solution of our most serious social problem in Scotland, and we think it is the duty of every fair-minded and right-thinking Scotsman to vote against it.
  9.33 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. J. Nixon Browne): The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) and his right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) have asked whether the Money Resolution is drawn in such a way as to allow Amendments to the Bill in Committee to make possible Exchequer grants for the erection of factories and the like. The answer to that question is "No". I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that this Bill cannot be the place to deal with an issue of this kind, even if, which we do not accept, the need for such grants was made out.
  I should repeat that the Bill does make possible the provision by local authorities of factory space under the Planning Acts,—with the approval of my right hon. Friend, to be let, as a rule, on an economic basis, inside the Development Area, as well as outside the Development Area, as at present.
  Mr. Woodburn: There is another point. The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) raised what I thought was a very important point. It was that if a firm has to leave what the hon. Member called a slum factory in Glasgow, there is no compensation at all and the local authority receives no assistance in demolishing it. Both the firm concerned and the local authority will be in the position that when one slum occupant goes, another one comes in. Would the Joint Under-Secretary say how the Government think that that will be any solution to the problem in Glasgow if, immediately the factory is vacated, it is filled again?
  Mr. Browne: Yes, I was going to reply to that point later, but I will reply to it now. My right hon. Friend has authorised Glasgow to spend £250,000 a year on buying up factories in advance of actual clearance in approved redevelopment areas to avoid just the risk which my hon. Friend feared. This will earn block grant which will be 50 per cent. of outstanding loan charges.
  The right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire began by saying that this was a Bill to raise rents, and his hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, in winding up for the Opposition, said it was a Bill to transfer a burden from the Exchequer to the local authority. My hon. Friend the Member for Pollok (Mr. George) had an argument with the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) about the effect of the Bill on the rents of local authority houses. The hon. Member for Hamilton said that rents should go up in any case.
  Mr. T. Fraser: Not all rents.
  Mr. Browne: I want to get dear at the beginning of my speech exactly how much effect the Bill will have on rents. I have here, and I have kept it for some time, a short article out of the Weekly Scotsman which starts with the headline, "Subsidies slash will double Scots' rents". That is exactly the point which my hon. Friend the Member for Pollok was talking about.
  The fact is that the average rent in Scotland today is £15 10s., and if the local authorities were to balance their books and we were to tear up this Bill, the rent, to balance the books, to balance the housing accounts, should be £34 and not £15 10s. The effect of the Bill would be to raise those rents from £34 in three or four years' time to a figure of some £39. That is the effect of the Bill. It will not of itself double the rents.
  The hon. Member for Hamilton made great play with our contention that subsidies should not go to those who do not need them. I ask him one simple question. Would he happily live in a house at a rent far less than he personally could afford to pay, because somebody else who could ill afford it was subsiding him?
  Mr. Fraser: That is like the question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
  Mr. Browne: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's answer, but does he object to rent rebate schemes, and does he not realise that while we are bandying words about the Chamber we have to get some realism into the position?
  What is the position of the pooling of subsidies? It is that about which the difference between the two sides of the House arises. There are a large number of local authority houses which were built when costs were lower, built when interest rates were lower, and for such houses the economic rent, as everyone will agree, is less than many people can reasonably afford to pay. Today, when costs and interest rates are high and the situation is reversed, the economic rent of a new house being built is well up to or even, in some cases, more than what we would consider to be a reasonable rent. If a local authority charged reasonable rents for all its existing houses which have been well maintained over the years—and in many cases the older ones are more conveniently situated—it could create the necessary surplus to subsidise the cost of new houses being built today, and so charge fair rents. It is quite ridiculous to calculate the new subsidy on existing costs and to ignore the position of the pool.
  The Working Party gave information on rent levels. After taking a wide selection it decided in round figures that average rents were in England £35 8s. 4d., in Northern Ireland £33 and in Scotland £16. That is a striking difference, even allowing for the higher proportion of four-apartment houses in England. The Scottish housing authorities cannot claim that there is justification in charging less than half the English rent for a more or less comparable house.
  Who pays the difference? My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Renfrew, East (Sir G. Lloyd) asked that 64 dollar question and himself answered that it must be paid for. Government subsidies begin to pay for the difference. They have always been higher in Scotland than in England, and the difference remains in the Bill. I sometimes wonder whether we in Scotland really appreciate the English taxpayer for his understanding of the Scottish position, and whether right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite appreciate support of the Secretary of State for Scotland for Scottish interests.
  154
  The larger Government subsidies make up some of the difference, and the rest falls on the unfortunate Scottish ratepayer, who pays more than his English neighbour. But, and this is a very big but, the Working Party's Report makes it clear that the tenant of the average local authority house in Scotland pays in rent and rates together less than the English local authority tenant. Therefore, the Scottish local authority tenant is better off. But at whose expense? At the expense of the Scottish ratepayer who is not fortunate enough to have a corporation house.
  I should like to give to the House details of the effect on the ratepayer if the local authority did what we suggest under the Bill should be done, and in 1956–57 charged an average net rent of £39. The saving to Edinburgh ratepayers would be 1s. 3d., Glasgow 3s. 4d., Aberdeen 3s. 7d., Dundee 3s. 10d., Midlothian 4s. 7d., Hamilton 5s. 9d., Clydebank 6s. 7d., Kilmarnock 6s. 11d., and Lanark County 8s. 8d. In Coatbridge, if there was an average rent of 15s. a week per corporation house in 1956–57, the reduction in the rate poundage would be over 10s. in the £.
  To what extent are the present housing accounts distorted? The present average rent is £15 10s. net or 6s. a week. If this average were increased to 15s. a week for existing houses, the local authorities could reduce the ratepayers' burden on each house from £19 to £2 6s. As my right hon. Friend said, it has been considered fair and right that for every £3 subsidy given by the taxpayer towards local authority housing an additional £1 should be paid for by the general body of ratepayers.
  Mr. Fraser: Why?
  Mr. Browne: That is classical. I do not know why, but a proportion of three to one has always been considered the right proportion.
  The average Exchequer contribution per house is £21 9s. for all existing houses at May, 1957, not £24, as my hon. Friend the Member for Pollok said. A third of £21 9s., is £7 3s. If the local authority charges, not £2 6s. per year but £7 3s. a year, that is 2s. 9d. a week, and there is an average rent of 15s. a week, this will produce a surplus over 500,000 existing houses of over £2,400,000, which is

  155
  nearly £100 a year per new house for the first year's output of 25,000. That is more than is needed to meet today's high costs.
  These figures show—I know that one can make any case that one likes with figures—that there is plenty of room for manoeuvre in adjusting rent and rate burdens, if necessary by stages, to give fair play to all with the help of the rent rebate scheme, and to take account of current building costs. The situation, as local authorities know, especially those building houses in large numbers, can never be static. I know that averages are deceptive. When the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) was being so sorry, as we are, for local authorities below the average he did not say that the Scottish Housing Association is there to help by providing free houses to hard-hit local authorities whose finances do not fit into the general pattern.
  Mr Fraser: Free houses?
  Mr. Browne: Yes, free houses.
  I should like to turn from that to Part II of the Bill, and to refer, first, to the size of the overspill problem which has been creeping on us gradually over the years. I think that the position is very serious. The Glasgow problem is by far the greatest, as has been said.
  In Glasgow, about 300,000 people cannot be rehoused within the city boundaries. Within three years, the building on new sites within the city boundaries will virtually come to a stop. No more than about 10,000 families can still hope to have new houses on new sites within the city boundaries, but 100,000 families are on the waiting list, of which 43,000 have no homes of their own. The balance of these 100,000 families must stay where they are, wait for people to leave houses, consider buying houses, or remove outside Glasgow. Of course, there will be extensive building of additional new houses in Gorbals and other redevelopment areas, but that will mean better new homes for fewer people, and the balance displaced will have to move elsewhere. The proportion displaced in Gorbals may be about 60 per cent., and overall it will be between 30 and 50 per cent.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central asked: "What does Clause 14 mean?" and challenged me to tell him. I will try
  156
  to do so but it is not very easy. The intention is to draw up a notional income and expenditure account year by year for each town development scheme. The expenditure side would show the loan charges incurred on the preparation and purchase of land not yet appropriated or resold for particular uses and also the loan charges incurred on the installation of water and sewerage services with current outgoings on these services, that is, maintenance, etcetera.
  Mr. Woodburn: And factories?
  Mr. Browne: No, not factories.
  The income side would show the proceeds from the disposal of land and a figure representing the income which the receiving authority would have earned from the new valuation on water and sewerage account if that valuation had borne rates at the level which would have obtained in their district if there had been no town development. [Interruption.] It will read very well in HANSARD.
  Hon. Members: What does it mean.
  Mr. Browne: The Exchequer would contribute 75 per cent. of the deficit on this account year by year, leaving the receiving authority to meet the balance, less any contribution undertaken by the exporting authority.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) raised the point—
  Mr. McInnes: May I apologise to the House for having asked for this information?
  Mr. Browne: I, at any rate, accept the hon. Gentleman's apology. The English town development grant is fixed administratively, so we in Scotland deserve praise —not blame, such as we have received —for fixing all the details by regulation subject to annulment by either House.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central painted a gloomy picture of the partial failure of English local authorities to make overspill arrangements. He said, about this Bill, that it just will not work. We are starting to tackle a problem that may well take twenty years to solve. In answer to several questions, one from my hon. Friend the Member for Pollok, may I say that new towns are not ruled out.

  157
  We believe, however, that with two new towns on our hands already we should not look to new towns to be the sole answer, and that we should now seek to exploit the expansion of existing communities with all their facilities. We hope to succeed in that. We have learned from experience in England, and I for one do not agree that the Bill just will not work. I agree., however, that town development is not the whole solution.
  Questions were asked by the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire and others about the movement of industry. It is a question which has been exercising our minds a great deal. As the right hon. Gentleman will know, a number of firms have already moved out of Glasgow without any Government assistance, and we have made the most careful investigations. Heavier industries cannot move easily. They are part of the Clydeside shipbuilding; they depend on the river. Lighter industries are easier and cheaper to move, and the compensation provisions of existing Acts are reasonably satisfactory. I will give some particulars in a little while.
  Under Clause 25 local planning authorities can, for the first time, undertake factory building, the cost of acquisition and clearance and preliminary development of land for which qualifies for grant. Under Clause 17, which is a provision new to Scotland, the local authority engaged in central redevelopment and obliged to reinstate displaced industry, can meet its obligations by finding a new site in or near one of the overspill areas. Finally the local authority will have power, subject to the consent of the Secretary of State, in exceptional cases, to accept rebated rent from industry while it is settling into that new area.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Pollok asked me specifically about compensation. The Department of Health, in consultation with the Inland Revenue Valuation Department, has considered a range of specimen factories likely to be affected by redevelopment in Glasgow. The estimates made are, of course, confidential but broadly speaking the study made by Departments shows that the statutory compensation will, in a considerable proportion of cases, go a long way towards meeting the cost of reinstatement.
  For example, the consultations with the Inland Revenue Department show that in one specimen case of a textile
  158
  firm employing about 300 workers, the statutory compensation might amount to about £200,000, and the capital cost, at present prices, of providing accommodation for the same number of workers, designed and built to industrial estate standards, would be about £160,000 against £200,000 received. For another specimen case, a light engineering firm employing 200 workers, the estimates were £170,000 for compensation and £230,000 for a new building, which is slightly less. So compensation can work both ways. But I am reasonably satisfied that we shall find sufficient cases of factories that will get enough compensation to enable them to move without hardship, after allowing for the other provisions of the Bill.
  The hon. Member for Hamilton and others spoke about the size of houses. I should like to put the hon. Member for Hamilton right about that point. Immediately after the war and until 1949 local authorities, as he knows, concentrated on four and five-apartment houses. There was an urgent over-riding necessity to provide houses for large families. From 1949 it became apparent that these rows of four and five-apartment houses would result in the next generation, when those families grew up and when there might be many childless couples, having to move from the neighbourhood because there would be no suitable houses for them. So the restrictions were relaxed and the local authorities were encouraged to build more three-apartment houses which was in tune with their waiting lists.
  Today we leave the local authorities to decide. The subsidies are similar for all types of house because, as I miss no opportunity to remind local authorities, a stable, properly balanced, properly housed community needs the right proportion of every type and size of house.
  This Bill contains the last two parts of a fivepart pattern of legislation spreading over four years of which we Unionists can be justly proud, and in which I am very proud to have myself played some part. The Housing (Repairs and Rents) (Scotland) Act, 1954, set the pattern for long overdue slum clearance and the maintenance of deteriorating house property. The Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1956—the Sorn Bill—removecl for all time the basic cause of the steady deterioration

  159
  of Scotland's housing standards over the years.
  The Rent Bill, now under consideration in Committee, will help to improve these standards, increase the availability of property, and improve the pattern of maintenance set by the 1954 Act. Part I of the Bill now before us and the true facts about net rent levels now revealed as a result of the Sorn Bill will show the Scottish people in proper perspective for

  Division No. 64.]

  AYES

  [9.58 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Cower, H. B.

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Aitken, W. T.

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Grant, W. (Woodside)

  Maddan, Martin

  Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. H. (Nantwich)

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Arbuthnot, John

  Green, A.

  Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Manningham-Buller, R. Hn. Sir R.

  Ashton, H.

  Grimond, J.

  Maude, Angus

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Mawby, B. L.

  Atkins, H. E.

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Gurden, Harold

  Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Barber, Anthony

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Barlow, Sir John

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Barter, John

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Nairn, D. L. S.

  Beamish, Maj. Tufton

  Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

  Neave, Airey

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Nicolson, N.(B'n'm'th,E. & Chr'ch)

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Blggs-Davison, J. A.

  Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

  O'Neill, Hn. Phellm (Co. An m, N.)

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Bishop, F. P.

  Hesketh, R. F.

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-S-Mare)

  Body, R. F.

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Page, N. G.

  Bossom, Sir Alfred

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Partridge, E.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Hope, Lord John

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hornby, R. P.

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Braine, B. R.

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Howard, John (Test)

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Pott, H. P.

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Powell, & Enoch

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Campbell, Sir David

  Hurd, A. R.

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Channon, Sir Henry

  Hyde, Montgomery

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Cole, Norman

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Redmayne, M.

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Corfield, Capt. F. V.

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Crouch, R. F.

  Johnson, Erlc (Blackley)

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Cunningham, Knox

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Rippon, A. G. F.

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Kaberry, D.

  Robertson, Sir David

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Keegan, D.

  Robinson Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Deedes, w. F.

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Kerr, H. W.

  Russell, R. S.

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Kirk, P. M.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. k.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Simon, J. E.S. (Middlesbrough W.)

  du Cann, E. D. L.

  Lambton, Viscount

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Leavey, J. A.

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

  Leburn, W. G.

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Duthie, W. S.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt n S.)

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Steward, Harold (Stockport S.)

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Longden, Gilbert

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Fell, A.

  Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswtck

  Storey, S.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  studholme, Sir Henry

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Foster, John

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Teeling, W.

  Freeth, Denzil

  McKibbin, A. J.

  Temple, J. M.

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Gibson-Watt, D.

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Thompson, Lt.-Cdr.B.(Croydon, S.)

  Godber, J. B.

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

  Turton, Rt. Hon, R. H.

  the first time the facts about local authority housing finance, and will help to bring about action that should have been taken long ago. Part II of the Bill is the tool with which we hope to progress far in the solution of Scotland's greatest and most difficult hosing task, the Clyde Valley problem.
  Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
  The House divided: Ayes 200, Noes 160.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Wade, D. W.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Mr. Wakefield and

  Wall, Major Patrick

  Wills, G. (Bridgwater)

  Mr. Brooman-White

  Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  NOES

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Parker, J.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Hannan, W.

  Paton, John

  Baird, J.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

  Pentland, N.

  Balfour, A.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Popplewell, E.

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire) E.)

  Harbison, Miss M.

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Benson, G.

  Holman, P.

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Blackburn, F.

  Holmes, Horace

  Probert, A. R.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Hoy, J. H.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Pryde, D. J.

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Randall, H. E.

  Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S. W.)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Rankin, John

  Bowles, F. G.

  Hunter, A. E.

  Redhead, E. C.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Reeves, J.

  Brockway, A. F.

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Reid, William

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Janner, B.

  Ross, William

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Carmichael, J.

  Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Champion, A. J.

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Sparks, J. A.

  Clunie, J.

  Kenyon, C.

  Steele, T.

  Coldrick, W.

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

  Lawson, G. M.

  Stones, W. (Consett)

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Craddook, George (Bradford, S.)

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Logan, D. G.

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Thornton, E.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  MacColl, J. E.

  Timmons, J.

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Turner-Samuels, M.

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  MoGovern, J.

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Delargy, H. J.

  McInnes, J.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Weitzman, D.

  Dye, S.

  McLeavy, Frank

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  West, D. G.

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Fienburgh, W.

  Mason, Roy

  Wigg, George

  Finch, H. J.

  Messer, Sir F.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Fletcher, Eric

  Mikardo, Ian

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Forman, J. C.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Monslow, W.

  Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  Moss, R.

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Gooch, E. G.

  Moyle, A.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Mulley, F. W.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Orbach, M.

  Zilliaous, K.

  Grey, C. F.

  Oswald, T.

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Owen, W. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Padley, W. E.

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. John Taylor.

  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

  HOUSING AND TOWN DEVELOPMENT (SCOTLAND) [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).—[Queen's Recommendation signified.]
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session making new provision, among other matters, with respect to contributions out of the Exchequer and by local authorities in respect of housing accommodation provided or improved in Scotland and enabling Scottish local authorities to provide housing accommodation and other development in relief of the needs of districts other than their own, it is expedient—
  A. To authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in paying to a local authority, or in certain cases to a development corporation,—

  (a) in respect of any approved house an annual contribution for a period of sixty

  163
  years of the appropriate amount hereinafter specified, that is to say—

  (i) in the case of a house provided by a local authority other than a house such as is mentioned under the four next following sub-heads, twenty-four pounds;

  (ii) in the case of a house provided by a local authority in accordance with arrangements made with the approval of the Secretary of State as being desirable by reason of special circumstances for the provision of housing accommodation in any area for persons coming to that area in order to meet the urgent needs of industry, thirty pounds;

  (iii) in the case of a house provided by a local authority by way of housing accommodation for the agricultural population, thirty-six pounds;

  (iv) in the case of a house provided by a local authority in pursuance of any overspill agreement, forty-two pounds;

  (v) in the case of a house provided by a local authority, being an exporting authority, in the district of another local authority, forty-two pounds;

  (vi) in the case of a house provided by a development corporation otherwise than in pursuance of arrangements made under section eighty of the Act of 1950. forty-two pounds;

  (vii) in the case of a house provided by a housing association under arrangements made under the said section eighty, such one of the amounts mentioned in sub-heads (i). (ii) and (iii) of this head as the Secretary of State may determine to be appropriate;

  (b) in respect of any approved house which is a flat contained in a block of flats, an additional annual contribution for a period of sixty years of such amount as may be determined by the Secretary of State to be necessary to secure the amortisation over the said period of an amount equal to two-thirds of the sum, if any, by which the cost of the house exceeds such sum as may be so determined to represent the average cost of approved houses in Scotland (exclusive of such houses as may be so determined) at the time of the approval by the Secretary of State of the proposals in accordance with which the house is provided;

  (c) in respect of any approved house (not being a house provided by a development corporation or the town council of a large burgh) an additional annual contribution for a period of sixty years of such amount as the Secretary of State considers just and reasonable having regard to the remoteness of the site of that house or the sites of other houses from centres of supply of building labour and materials;

  (d) contributions towards the expenditure incurred by a local authority in connection with—

  (i) the acquisition or appropriation of land situated within the area to which any town development scheme relates, or the clearing or preliminary development of land so situated, or

  164

  (ii) the provision for the purposes of any town development scheme of any water supply or sewerage service,

  being contributions of such amounts and payable in such cases, over such periods and subject to such conditions, as may be determined by or under regulations made under any provision of the said Act of the present Session relating to town development schemes;
  B. To authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in paying to the Scottish Special Housing Association,—

  (a) in respect of any house (as defined for the purposes of any provision of the said Act of the present Session relating to the said Association) provided by them an annual contribution for a period of sixty years of an amount, in each year, equal to the annual contribution, or, as the case may be, the sum of the annual contributions, which would have been payable in that year under subsection (7) of section eighty-four and sections eighty-six, eighty-eight and eighty-nine of the Act of 1950, and any provision of the said Act of the present Session providing for the payment of Exchequer contributions in respect of houses provided by a local authority, if the house had been a house provided by a local authority;

  (b) such further contributions as the Secretary of State may determine;

  C. To authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session in the sums required or authorised under any other Aot to be so paid;
  D. To authorise the payment into the Exchequer of any receipts of the Secretary of State under the said Act of the present Session.
  In this Resolution—
  "Act of 1950" means the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1950;
  "approved house" means a new house which is—

  (a) provided by a local authority in the exercise of their power to provide housing accommodation, or by a development corporation otherwise than in pursuance of arrangements made under section eighty of the Act of 1950, and in respect of which the proposals after-mentioned, accompanied by such information as is required by the Secretary of State as to the estimated cost of erection of the house, were or are received by the Secretary of State on or after the first day of August, nineteen hundred and fifty-six, or

  (b) provided by a housing association in pursuance of arrangements made under the said section eighty on or after the said first day of August,

  being a house for which proposals have been submitted to the Secretary of State and have been approved by him for the purposes of the said Act of the present Session;

  165
  "exporting authority" means a local authority, being a local authority for a district which has a need for housing accommodation which cannot in the opinion of the Secretary of State be properly and fully met by the provision of housing accommodation within the district, who propose to make or have made arrangements for the meeting of that need, in whole or in part, by the provision of housing accommodation outside their district;
  "overspill agreement" means an agreement entered into between an exporting authority and another local authority or a development corporation for the provision by that other authority, or, as the case may be, that corporation, of housing accommodation to meet, in whole or in part, the needs of the district of the exporting authority;
  "town development scheme" means a scheme made by a local authority and approved by the Secretary of State, and containing proposals for development to be carried out in conjunction with the provision of housing accommodation in the district of that local authority in pursuance of arrangements made by another local authority for meeting, in whole or in part, any need of their district for housing accommodation which is in the opinion of the Secretary of State cannot be properly and fully met by the provision of such accommodation within their district.—[Mr. Maclay.]
  Mr. Emrys Hughes Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire) rose—
  The Chairman: The hon. Member is allowed to ask a question.
  Mr. Hughes: I merely wished to point out that, in view of the low vote, it might be as well if we took the Money Resolution on another night.
  Mr. E. G. Willis Mr. E. G. Willis (Edinburgh, East) rose—
  It being after Ten o'clock and objection being taken to further Proceeding, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

BOOK (IMPORT)
Motion made and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. R. Thompson.]
10.9 p.m.
Mr. Denis Howell: I wish to raise a question of the censorship of literary works imported into this country. This matter arises because of the seizure by the Customs and Excise authority of two volumes by Jean Genet, a contemporary French author, irrespective of the fact that copies of these works already lie in the British Museum and in the Library of Reading University. It strikes me as extremely illogical that the Customs and Excise refused to allow this book, which is in French and could be read only by a very limited number of French scholars, from proceeding to the reference library of Birmingham University, although it is already in the other two libraries to which I have referred.
I know that there are conflicting opinions about this author and his work. Some people think he is extremely mediocre, some think nothing of him at all. On the other hand, there are people of literary standing who believe him to be a man of genius. I certainly would not express any opinion, not having read his works, but it is mostly on a matter of principle that I raise this question tonight. I am assured by all the authorities, whatever view they take, that to anyone—especially a scholar wanting to study French literature—this man is an author who must be read. If he must be read to get a proper appreciation of contemporary French literature, I submit to the Parliamentary Secretary that it is rather serious that libraries in this country should be prevented from having his works in their reference sections.
I hope very much that, on classical grounds, if on no others, the Economic Secretary, who had such a distinguished classical history before coming to this House, will be tempted to support us. I cannot believe that anyone with such a record as he has could oppose classical French scholars having an opportunity to study the works of Jean Genet. Incidentally, a full critical analysis of this author appeared in the British Journal of Delinquency, in which there is a four-page

167
review of this man and his works. Obviously he is a man of outstanding importance in this field. That review has been written by Mr. John Croft who, I believe, happens to be an official of the Home Office. If this author and his contemporary standards are sufficiently important to be reviewed by a member of the Home Office staff, I submit in passing that that is another excellent reason why the Customs and Excise ought not to take the action they have taken.
When this question first arose there was much feeling about it in Birmingham. Leading articles appeared in two very responsible newspapers, the Birmingham Post and the Birmingham Mail, opposing censorship of these works. Since then, there has been some change of face. We have had the almost Gilbertian situation of the town clerk of Birmingham, the city librarian and the chairman of the committee, solemnly proceeding to London. The Customs and Excise authorities gave them translated passages from these works, a practice to which I must object, because I think it is quite impossible to judge any book by a few translated passages. Then they proceeded back to Birmingham with those passages, having decided that the book is unfit for the rest of it to read. That solemn procession came home with those passages and one could almost hear them singing Gilbert's famous song:
"I have a little list."
It is rather like the old story we used to tell in local government circles of the mayor and town clerk who watched a film through three times before deciding that it was unfit for public exhibition. That seems to be the position in Birmingham as a great many people in Birmingham appear to know what is contained in those passages, especially in official circles, although I have not had the opportunity of reading them.
It is a question of principle which I raise tonight, apart from the specific issue, for it is wrong that the Customs and Excise should use an authority given them in the latter part of the nineteenth century to stop a classical work from being imported into the country, especially a classical work of this character which can be read by only a limited number of people and which is already in existence in the British Museum and
168
the Library of the Reading University. It is wrong that they should use that authority to prevent it from being contained in the Birmingham reference library or any other reference library, particularly after it has had a favourable review in The Times.
Libraries are responsible in law for proper discretion in these matters, and they exercise it. I am told that there is hardly any reference library in the country which, for the benefit of classical scholars and students, do not contain works which, if put on sale, might be described as pornographic; but that does not prevent them from being in the collection of these libraries as very necessary for students of particular periods of literature. In other words, the exercise of this authority is an abuse of the powers of the Customs and Excise.
The information which the Economic Secretary kindly gave me when I asked a Question shows that the practice of censoring this sort of book is growing considerably. In 1955, 827 books and magazines were so prevented from entering the country. Is it a fact that the British Museum, for example, can get pretty well any book it wants? There is a feeling in some literary circles that because of its close Government connections it can order and obtain those books and put them in its libraries. Personally I think that is perfectly proper, and hope nothing I say will alter that custom in respect of the British Museum. Rather, I hope it will be extended to other libraries.
If those books cannot be brought into the country, I must ask the Economic Secretary how they got into Reading University Library and why there should be any distinction between Reading University Library and any other university library or city reference library in the country.
I am also told upon inquiries from some booksellers that they have now reached the position that they find it impossible to get any of this author's work into the country, whether pornographic or not. Is that true? If it is true, it means that in respect of this author there is an index system at work. This is a very serious matter, far beyond anything we have previously heard. It means that this author's works are not

169
to be judged on their individual merits, but that the fact that he has written anything stops its importation. That is a very serious matter.
These books were written in French and are widely read, particularly throughout Europe and America, by students of contemporary French literature. It seems to me farcical that students in this country are prevented from reading what is read by students throughout the world, and particularly in Europe and America.
Could the Economic Secretary be far more explicit than I realise he could be at Question Time about the principles which govern the Customs and Excise in this matter? Who decides which books shall come in? No one can conceivably believe that every book imported into this country is read by a member of the Customs and Excise staff. That would be a fantastic state of affairs which obviously does not exist. Is there a hit-and-miss method by Customs and Excise? Do they wait for a complaint about a particular book? As we have here a public authority exercising its powers of censorship. It is extremely important, whether we agree with it or not, that we should know the principles upon which it operates. Apart from the amount of public money involved in this sort of censorship, I think we are entitled to a reply to that question.
I want to give the Economic Secretary as much time as possible in which to reply, and I hope that I have made the position quite clear. This book is already in existence elsewhere and should be in the Birmingham reference library for the use of French-speaking students. Indeed, it should be in other reference libraries. I know that there are difficulties, but I certainly do not think that Birmingham can judge of the quality of a work by certain extracts from it. Such a practice is to be deprecated.
The great difficulty about this Act of 1876 in relation to contemporary opinion is that the Government, by standing by that Act, are saying, in effect, that they do not think the public are capable of responsible judgment in regard to this or any other work. I believe that we have as responsible and mature a public as can be found anywhere in the world. Our people should be trusted to do their own censorship. I, for one, trust them to sort
170
out for themselves what is right and what is wrong.
No one suggests that we shall corrupt thousands of people by having such books in the reference libraries, and I hope very sincerely that the Government will agree that our people should be treated as being responsible, and not as the people of Birmingham are being treated in this case —subjected to two censorships; one by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise, and another by the chairman and officials of the Birmingham Libraries Committee.
A serious principle is involved. It is true that not many people are affected. I doubt whether there are more than 25 or 30 students of French in Birmingham who want to read the book. I do not read French myself, but I understand that this is a very difficult book to read. Therefore, there are not great numbers of people involved, but this is a matter of some principle, which the Government ought to consider in a more enlightened manner and on which they should certainly give far more information than we now have at our disposal.
10.23 p.m.
Mr. James Simmons: For three years I was chairman of the Birmingham Libraries Committee. An important point to remember is that the Birmingham Reference Library is perhaps the finest of its kind in the country, apart from the university libraries, and Birmingham is a university city. If we start censoring such books on the lines on which this censorship has been conducted the reference library will be emasculated, because this is not the only book in it that could be described as pornographic.
What must be made quite clear to the public—because prejudice is being stirred up—is that this book is not intended for public circulation through the lending library. It is intended solely for the city's reference library. I ask the Economic Secretary to bear in mind that Birmingham's reference library has a great reputation throughout the country and that the books in it are books for students. The books in the lending library are quite a different matter. If we allow this censorship to start there is no knowing where it will end, and it will gravely impair the value of the services rendered to Birmingham's students by the city's reference library.
10.24 p.m.
Mr. Eric Fletcher: I am not a Birmingham Member, but I am sure the whole House is indebted to my hon. Friend for raising this question, involving, as it does, a most serious matter of principle. We in this House are against censorship of any kind, but this seems to be a most insidious form of censorship—censorship by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise.
I can understand the ordinary censorship of pornographic literature. But here we have the city corporation of Birmingham wishing to import for its reference library a classical work which is available in the British Museum and elsewhere. It shocks my conscience that Her Majesty's Customs and Excise can prohibit the importation of this book. I hope that the Financial Secretary will apologise on behalf of the Government for what has been, in my view, an abuse of power, and he owes it to the House and to the country to explain on what principles it has been exercised.
I have had occasion in the past to complain about Her Majesty's Customs and Excise exceeding their authority. I do not believe that, by the Act of 1876, Parliament ever intended to give the Commissioners of Customs and Excise power to prevent works of scholarship being imported into this country. I can understand there being a case as regards the importation of pornographic magazines and weekly papers and that sort of thing, but this is a work of scholarship. It seems to me quite intolerable that the Commissioners should even think that they have the right to assume these powers to prevent a great municipality from importing books in a foreign language, books of acknowledged scholarship, which people interested in the subject wish to read. I hope that the Financial Secretary will apologise for what I think, most people, on reflection, would regard as having been a very considerable abuse of power by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise.
10.27 p.m.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. Enoch Powell): The hon. Member for Birmingham. All Saints (Mr. D. Howell), who introduced the topic, and I are in some difficulty because, of course, we are debating this matter on the Adjournment and therefore have to take the law of the country as it stands.
172
The law of the country governing this matter, as he said, is the Act of 1876, which prohibits the importation into this country of
"indecent or obscene … books."
I am quoting only the relevant words.
What are indecent or obscene books for the purposes of the law is not a matter to be decided by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise. It is a matter, like all other matters of the interpretation of the law, to be decided by the courts. Accordingly, the Customs and Excise Act, 1952, provides the procedure, in the Seventh Schedule, whereby the jurisdiction of the courts may be brought to bear upon this question of the interpretation of the law; for, when the Customs seize a book under this provision, they must give notice to the importer and the importer has the right, upon receiving that notice, within a month to make a claim. Thereupon the matter must be referred to the courts. Normally, it is referred to the magistrates' courts but there is provision for it to be taken to the High Court.
Thus, although the day-to-day administration of this Section, as, indeed, the administration of all other prohibitions and regulations of import into this country, is administered by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise, the decision in the last resort as to what does or does not fall within its compass is for the courts.
Having explained the procedure, I will come to the particular case. These two volumes were imported into this country in October. The officers at the point of import, after examining them, referred the volumes to headquarters. Headquarters, after examination, considered that they fell within the ambit of the prohibition in the law, and accordingly gave notice to the importer, Messrs. Blackwell, that the importer might, if he thought fit, make a claim that the books were not, within the meaning of the Act, indecent or obscene.
The importer made no claim. I do not know whether, during the period of one month, t he importer sought the opinion or consulted the wishes of the City authorities for whom the books were being imported. It is reasonable to suppose, at any rate, that the authorities were aware of the facts and of their rights. However, the opportunity which was open in this case, as

173
in all cases, to test the matter in a court of law, was not taken, although there was every chance to do so, and I may add that, as I mentioned in answering the hon. Member's question a week or two ago, Her Majesty's Customs and Excise are very ready, even though the legally provided period has elapsed, to arrange for a test importation so that even now, if desired, the matter can be referred to the courts.
However, the Birmingham authorities did think it their duty to form their own opinion of the interpretation—though it was not referred to the courts in the circumstances which I have explained—which had been put upon the law, and there occurred what the hon. Member for All Saints described as a solemn procession from Birmingham to the Metropolis and back again. But, of course, the fact that the solemn procession included the town clerk, the city librarian and the chairman of the libraries committee—the three people most interested, one must assume, in the completeness and status of the city collection—does give the procedure a certain importance, and what they said a certain evidential value.
After that visit the chairman of the public libraries committee said:
"When I had the opportunity of reading translated passages from page after page of Genet's book I felt sick to the foundations of my being. The theme was homosexuality. I am convinced that the Customs and Excise Department has rendered a public service in impounding such a book."
He is the chairman of the public libraries committee, charged as such with the duty of looking after the interests of the city reference library, and it is reasonable to suppose that that opinion which he expressed was a considered opinion and one given after consultation with the others who had accompanied him to London.
Mr. D. Howell: It certainly was not an opinion given after consultation with the libraries committee. It was given before the libraries committee had an opportunity of reading the book. As the chairman cannot usurp the functions of the other 151 members of the city council, would the Financial Secretary agree that the other 151 members of the city council should have the same opportunity of reading the same extract?
Mr. Powell: That is a matter for the libraries committee and the council them-
174
selves to decide. One is entitled to attach importance to the statements of the chairman of the libraries committee in circumstances like that, after so much trouble had been taken by him and by the other authorities to acquaint themselves with the facts.
Mr. Howell: Why was it imported?
Mr. Powell: After discovering that the importation of this book was in fact illegal, and after deciding, as we must assume, that if tested in a court of law it would be found that the importation was illegal, they decided to take no further action. I must remind the House that we are discussing the administration of the law as it stands. I think there can be no doubt that, as the law stands, those who imported this book and those for whom it was imported had no reasonable doubt that the importation was unlawful.
The hon. Member said that there are already two copies of this book known to be in this country. I do not think it could possibly be argued that even if this does mean that two copies have already, in contravention of the law, entered the country, that is a ground on which the Customs and Excise thereafter should cease to do their duty under the law. One really cannot argue that because some contraband enters the country, therefore there should be no control of contraband at all and no effort to enforce the law.
The hon. Member asked me to state—and I will certainly ascertain this and communicate with him—whether there are any special privileges in this matter attaching under any circumstances to the British Museum. As at present advised, I am not aware that there are, but I will verify that and communicate with him.
He asked whether this action means that this author's works will automatically be regarded as indecent and obscene, and the answer to that is "No". Each case must be taken on its merits. If other works—for example, the hon. Member referred to Volume I, which was reviewed in The Times—are sought to be imported into this country, then an opinion on their merit will have to be formed, and there will again be an opportunity to the importer of having the matter properly settled in the courts.

175
I think that the House must conclude that, working within the framework of the existing law—and that is all we are able to do—in this case the Customs and Excise have interpreted that law reasonably and that, generally speaking, there is due opportunity for the public to be protected against an unreasonable administrative application of the law.
Mr. Howell: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for what he said about a general ban on this author's works. In view of what he has said, would he make inquiries from the Customs and Excise, for it seems impossible to get any bookseller to import any of this author's works, whether they are pornographic or not.
Mr. Powell: The Customs and Excise are not responsible for what a bookseller is willing to put on order. They are responsible only for the administering of the law relating to importation.
I would claim that the position at present is exactly that which was desiderated
176
in a leading article in The Times on 27th December, which posed the very real difficulties of this matter—that there is a tremendous amount of literature which everyone would wish to prevent from entering the country, while, on the other hand, we do not want a stuffy and unduly narrow attitude to the matter to grow up or to be enforced—and came to the conclusion that
"the only answer is the constant challenging of each disputable exercise of censorship. Authority must be forced to stand and deliver justification."
I submit to the House that the procedure which I have explained provides just that. It obliges Her Majesty's Customs and Excise, in the application of the law, to submit themselves upon challenge to the judgment of the courts, which is the right tribunal for the interpretation of the law.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-two minutes to Eleven o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The EARL OF DROGHEDA on the Woolsack.
Prayers

THE UNITED KINGDOM AND U.N.E.S.C.O.
2.35 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government:

(1) What benefit the United Kingdom receives from its Membership of U.N.E.S.C.O.

(2) Whether such benefit is worth the £535,572 which its membership of U.N.E.S.C.O. costs the United Kingdom in the two-year period 1955–56; and

(3) Whether the time has not now come for the United Kingdom to withdraw from membership of U.N.E.S.C.O. so that the money can either be saved or spent to greater advantage.]

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, membership of U.N.E.S.C.O. affords both to organisations and to individuals an opportunity for international exchange in education, science and the arts. It also offers scholarships, fellowships and other forms of assistance which are of particular value to British non-self-governing territories. In the view of Her Majesty's Government these benefits do not constitute the sole justification for membership, which must be considered more broadly as the participation by the United Kingdom in a relatively new method of international co-operation. The desirability or otherwise of membership of U.N.E.S.C.O. is, I should have thought, a somewhat wider question than can be usefully dealt with in Question and Answer, and in any event raises far wider issues than those implied in the third part of my noble friend's Question. But it is sufficient to state that for the
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above reasons Her Majesty's Government have no present intention of withdrawal.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his reply. As the cost to the United Kingdom seems to rise steadily year by year, may I ask him whether Her Majesty's Government will keep very close watch on this increasing cost?
VICOUNT HAILSHAM: Yes, my lords.

SHOPS BILL [H.L.]
2.37 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The Earl of DROGHEDA in the Chair.]
Clause 7 [Modification, at Christmastide, of requirements with respect to early closing days]:
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved to leave out Clause 7 and to insert the following new clause:
Modification, at Christmastide, of requirements with respect to early closing days
"7. Notwithstanding any of the foregoing provisions of this Act it shall not be necessary for days to be observed as respects a shop as early closing days in the three weeks of Christmastide."
The noble Earl said: Perhaps I may briefly explain exactly what this clause does and how I am suggesting that it might be improved. Clause 7 lays down conditions under which shops may stay open on early closing days in the week or fortnight before Christmas. The effect of the clause would be that if a shop were closed on Christmas Day and Boxing Day, then it could be opened on the two early closing days in the fortnight before Christmas. If it were closed on only one of these days, it could be opened on only the early closing day in the week before Christmas. I am suggesting that shopkeepers should be free to open on three early closing days during the three weeks before Christmas. The position of shop assistants, which naturally we are all anxious to safeguard, is safeguarded, I think, by Clause 37; at least, the principle is there and the clause could be

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amended suitably to extend the safeguard so that they would get an equivalent period of holiday after Christmas.
The advantages of my Amendment are two. First, it would somewhat relieve the Christmas shopping rush if the public were able to get a little more time for shopping during the three weeks before Christmas. Secondly, the clause as proposed by the Government would be extremely difficult to enforce. It would mean that local authority inspectors would have to spend more time watching shops to see that they were not open when they should be closed; and with their limited staff, local authorities would find that difficult. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 7 and insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I must confess that I am rather attracted by the Amendment. There seems to be a great deal to be said for it. I have not my right honourable friend's authority to accept it on behalf of the Government, and perhaps the noble Earl would agree to withdraw it on the terms that I should report what has been said to my right honourable friend and we should consider it.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am much obliged to the noble Viscount for what he has said. Naturally, we should like to bring this matter up again on Report. Perhaps by that time, if the Government feel that they can accept the principle of the Amendment, they will put down an Amendment which the House will be able to consider. If that is not the procedure which the noble Viscount has in mind, perhaps he would be good enough to give me notice so that I can raise the matter again on the next stage of the Bill.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I hope that that will be done; I feel sure that that course will be convenient to your Lordships. It is a small matter, but I think the noble Earl is right about this.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am much obliged, and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 7 agreed to.
Clause 8:
Compulsory change of early closing day falling on a non-business day
8. Where, in any week, a day which, as respects a shop, is (apart from this section) required by this Part of this Act to be observed as an early closing day is a non-business day, the day to be so observed, as respects the shop, in that week shall, instead of being that non-business day, be such other weekday (being a business day) as the occupier of the shop may select.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved to delete all words after the first "non-business day" and to substitute
"it shall be the duty of the occupier of the shop to keep displayed in the prescribed manner in the shop while it is open during such week a notice in the prescribed form nominating the early closing day for that week and the day to be observed as the early closing day in that week shall be the day so nominated."
The noble Earl said: This is a less substantial Amendment. The proposal I make is that it will be more convenient for the public and easier to enforce the proposal in the clause if shopkeepers put up a notice during the week of the day they will observe as early closing day. This applies, of course, to the particular conditions envisaged in the clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 33, leave out from the second "day" to end of line 36 and insert the said new words.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My right honourable friend and I do not like this Amendment. It is certainly true that a shopkeeper who puts up a notice would be conferring a benefit on the shopping public, but to support the notice with the sanctions of the criminal law, even in the interests of enforcement, seems to be a great deal too much trouble.
LORD DERWENT: Before my noble relative withdraws or presses his Amendment, I should like to ask whether the Government would at some stage in the Bill—I agree that too many notices are undesirable—put in an Amendment to enable the Minister at a later date, by regulation, to insist on the putting up of notices, if he thinks it necessary after the new Act has been working for some time.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I think I shall have to look into that suggestion. Notices are required under some of the clauses, but the point dealt with in this

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particular Amendment arises only when the early closing day falls on a non-business day. It was thought that, with this rare set of circumstances, it would be unfair to ask the shopkeeper, under pain of a fine, to put up an extra notice.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: What puzzles me is that the noble and learned Viscount has said that, in certain circumstances, he thinks notices should be put up in shops, and in that case, presumably, it would be an offence if the shopkeeper failed to do so. I think his ground for the view he has expressed is that it is likely to happen only rarely that an early closing day falls on a Bank Holiday' or other holiday, and therefore he does not think it necessary for the shopkeeper to put up a notice. I find it a little difficult to accept that line of argument. However, if the noble and learned Viscount feels strongly about it, I shall not press the Amendment, although I should be glad if he would consider the point in order that the general line about notification should be the same throughout the Bill.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I do not think there is any inconsistency in my attitude. Under Clause 3, for instance, it is necessary for a shopkeeper, if he wishes to exercise certain options conferred upon him by the early closing day provisions in that clause, to put up a notice in order to do so. The noble Earl will remember that on the previous day allotted to this Bill we discussed his and, I think, Lord Milvertort's series of Amendments in the interests of enforcement, which, if they had been passed, would have required a shopkeeper not only to put up a notice in his shop but to notify the local authority of his intention. Of that pair of options the Government preferred the notice as being the less onerous on the shopkeeper. Here we deal with the only occasion when he changes his early closing day because the early closing day is a non-business day. We think that that happens relatively seldom, and to make him put up a special notice on that occasion, under pain of fine, is probably pressing him too hard. I do not think I should plead guilty to inconsistency here.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I understand the argument of the noble and learned Viscount, but
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I should have thought that he would be one of the first to say he is anxious not to have statutory provisions unless they can be enforced. This is a clause which gives to a shopkeeper his own choice in a particular week as to which day he will close. There may be shopkeepers who will evade the law altogether, by opening on all the days they wish. You cannot expect local authorities to take up the burden of enforcement of laws passed by Parliament unless reasonable provision is made so that they can conduct a check. I think the Government ought to make up their mind that this is not just a foible of a member of the Opposition, but is a position taken up strongly by a prominent local authority.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: The last thing I should do would be to treat any Amendment moved by the noble Earl as a foible. I hope he does not think that I was dealing with his Amendment in a cavalier fashion. However, I must adhere to my position. If the early closing day happens to be a non-business day, even on the score of enforcement, I doubt whether the local authority would go round all the shops to see if they had got notices up, which is what they would have to do to take advantage of this Amendment. On the other hand, I am certain that in any normal town, if the shop remained open every day of the week, the kind neighbours of the shopkeeper would soon inform the local authority about him. As nobody knows better than the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, enforcement of these closing provisions largely depends on information supplied by rival traders. I think he can rest assured that, in the rare circumstances of this case, this will probably do the trick.
THE EURL OF LISTOWEL: The noble and learned Viscount has been so generous about the more important Amendment that I do not wish to be churlish in pressing this one, and I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9:
Voluntary change of early closing day in, or in week before, week in which non-business day falls
9.—(1) Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) of this section, where in a week in which a day is, as respects a shop, required by

907
this Part of this Act to be observed as an early closing day, a weekday, other than that so required to be so observed. is a non-business day, then, in any proceedings taken against a person in respect of an offence consisting in a contravention of the proviso to subsection (1) of section one of this Act with reference to the shop in relation either to that week or the immediately preceding week, it shall be a defence for him to prove—

(a) that the shop was closed all day on the non-business day; and

(b) that, in the week to which the proceedings relate, on a day other than that required by this Part of this Act to be observed as respects the shop as an early closing day, and being a business day, there had been complied with as respects the shop the requirements of this Part of this Act which fall to be so complied with on a day so required to be so observed; and

(c) that, in the week to which the proceedings relate, on the day so required to be so observed. there had been complied with as respects the shop the requirements of this Part of this Act which would have fallen to be so complied with if that day had not been so required to be so observed;

but where, as regards one of two successive weeks, a person avails himself, with reference to a shop, of the defence provided by the foregoing provisions of this section, that defence shall not be available with reference to that shop as regards the other of those weeks except by reliance upon a non-business day (being a weekday) other than that previously relied upon.
(2) The defence provided by the foregoing subsection shall not be available in proceedings for an offence consisting in a contravention of the proviso to subsection (I) of section one of this Act in any of the three weeks of Christmastide.
2.50 p.m.
LORD MATHERS LORD MATHERS moved, to delete Clause 9. The noble Lord said: It will be observed that in asking that this clause be deleted I have not gone the length of offering anything to take its place. My purpose in putting down the Amendment was to tell the Minister that I find the clause incomprehensible, and in asking that it should be deleted I am giving him the option of finding other words to express what is meant by the clause. Your Lordships have not sought to alter the wording of this clause. If that gives an indication that the clause is understood and is fully agreed, I congratulate your Lordships most heartily, because I am not in that happy position. In the past many of us, if not here, then in another place, have inveighed against the iniquities of Parliamentary draftsmanship, and tried to simplify the way in which Bills were framed. That was my sole purpose in moving that this clause be deleted.
It will be observed that there are other thoughts along that line, because Amendments Nos. 19 and 20 in the names of other noble Lords make an attempt at simplifying this particular clause. I think a fairly laudable attempt is being made, and I should like to see the noble Viscount take all this to avizandum, and find appropriate words which all of us can understand and which would not cause any great difficulty even to lawyers, some of whom have found the greatest difficulty in comprehending the clause as it appears now in the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 9.—(Lord Mathers.)
LORD MILVERTON: I was glad to listen to the noble Lord who moved his Amendment, because I have to admit that I, too, like many others, have found the drafting of Clause 9 difficult to understand. I hesitated to sponsor the proposed new clause which appears under my name on the Paper, because the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, told us, on the first day of this Committee stage, of the extremely delicate balance which had been achieved in this Bill by the draftsmen. I do not question that for a moment, but it has left me so delicately balanced in mid-air that I have no understanding of what this clause means at all, although I think I know what it intends to mean.
There are apparently three obligations in regard to the closing of shops—namely, normally 7 p.m., with power for the local authority to prescribe an earlier time, not being earlier than 6 p.m. This will apply to every weekday except the early closing day and the late closing day. Secondly, there is the late day closing at 8 p.m., or such earlier time as may be fixed by the local authority, but not being earlier than one hour after the normal time. Therefore, if the local authority have fixed an earlier time than 7 p.m. for the normal closing, on a late day it will not be later than an hour after that. There is only one late day a week, and the local authority are to make an order specifying a pair of weekdays for the late day, and the shopkeeper can, I gather, select one of them. Then, thirdly, on early closing day shops must close at 1 p.m. In this matter, the local authority may specify two weekdays, one, except for Jews, being Saturday, and the occupier

909
of the shop may select one and must keep a notice displayed nominating the day selected. This will be only one day in a week.
Turning now to Clause 9, I would point out that subsection (2) says the clause shall not apply at all to any of "the three weeks of Christmastide"—that expression being defined in Clause 63 to mean the week in which Christmas Day falls, the week immediately before, and the week immediately after. The clause applies to a week in which there is a non-business day other than Sunday—"non business day" being defined in Clause 64 to mean:

"(a) Sunday, Good Friday and Christmas Day;

(b) a bank holiday;

(c) a day appointed by Royal Proclamation as a public fast or thanksgiving day."

Perhaps, in view of its rarity, we may neglect the third one. As Christmas Day, Boxing Day and all Sundays are excluded from the operation of this clause, this leaves only as a non-business day to which the clause relates, Good Friday and three Bank Holidays—namely, Easter Monday, Whit Monday and the first Monday in August.
The clause provides, in effect, that, when there is in a week Good Friday or any of the three Bank Holidays then, if the shop is not closed early on the early closing day in that week, or in the week immediately preceding, it shall be a defence to proceedings for the failure to close for the shopkeeper to show one of these things: (a) that the shop was closed throughout the whole of the non-business day; (b) that another day—that is, not the proper early closing day—has been observed as early closing day, that being either in the week which contains the non-business day or in the preceding week; and (c) that on the proper early closing day the normal provisions as to closing (that is, 7 or 6 p.m.) and as to late closing (that is, 8 or 7 p.m.) have been complied with. If the shopkeeper decides to disregard the obligation for early closing, not in the week which includes the non-business day but in the previous week, and he avails himself of this defence by early closing on another day in the preceding week, the defence will not be available to him if he wanted to keep open on the proper early closing day in that week.
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This can perhaps be better appreciated by the following example, on the assumption that the normal early closing day is Saturday. First, take the week including Whit Monday. He would probably keep open all day on the previous Saturday, and the clause would then provide him with sufficient defence; but he could not, of course, keep the shop open all day on another early closing day. Secondly, take the case of Easter, where there are two non-business days in successive weeks. In that case he could keep his shop open all day on the Saturday after and the Thursday before Good Friday, and the clause would provide him with an adequate defence. Apparently, the clause effects the intended object, but it seems to me undoubtedly to be very involved. I suggest that a simpler form of clause would be to follow as near as may be to Clause 8—the compulsory change of early closing on a non-business day—and to have it worded much as in the Amendment which is down in my name on the paper, to substitute for the present Clause 9 the following words:
Voluntary change of early closing day in, or in week before, week in which non-business day falls
(".—(1) Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) of this section, when in any week, other than one of the three weeks of Christmastide, there is a non-business day being a week-day the occupier of a shop may at his option substitute for the day in that week to be observed under the other provisions of this Act as an early closing day another day in that week or in the immediately preceding week and the provisions of this Act relating to an early closing lay shall apply accordingly.
(2) Provided that the powers contained in this section shell not be exercisable in reference to a shop unless—

(a) that shop is kept closed all day on the non-business day; and

(b) the occupier of the shop gives notice in writing to the local authority informing them of the day which he proposes to be observed as the early closing day, that notice to be given at least seven days before that day.")

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: I think it would be for the general convenience of the Committee if we had a general discussion on these Amendments, including the Amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel.
LORD BURDEN: May I say a few words in support of the new clause mentioned by my noble friend Lord Milverton? I must confess that I have read Clause 9 forward several times. I have also tried reading it backwards, but

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I still find it, as my noble friend said, quite incomprehensible. I think, too, that I am justified in saying that it has puzzled some of the keenest men in local government service whose job it will be to try to interpret this Bill if and when it passes into law. It has also puzzled their skilled advisers. Therefore, I would ask whether the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, will give us some explanation of it, whether it would not be possible for the clause to be redrafted in such a way as to be understandable by ordinary people whose job it will be to administer it. If the noble and learned Viscount will do that, we shall be grateful. We shall be even more grateful if he can do it in rhymed verse.
3.1 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am not sure that I can undertake the latter task. I think I shall prefer free verse on this occasion. I confess that I have more than a little sympathy with noble Lords who have spoken. I do not take the view that this clause is incomprehensible. On the other hand, I think that my noble friend Lord Milverton succeeded in understanding it—
LORD BURDEN: I know.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: —and, therefore, ex hypothesi it is not incomprehensible. I frankly admit that I started with the feeling that the clause as drafted was highly inelegant, and it was only with great difficulty that the Parliamentary draftsman convinced me that, so far from being inelegant, the clause was really a triumph of delicately balanced draftsmanship. I hope to 'persuade your Lordships of that, and that although there is a way—I will indicate to your Lordships what it might be—in which it could be improved, it is only by altering the sense.
Basically speaking, the difficulty which is faced by the draftsman is this. What he wants to say is that there is a shopping rush before Good Friday, before Easter Monday and before Whit Monday. In the light of that shopping rush, it is desirable to alter the early closing day. If the non-business day, the dies non operanda, is a Friday, naturally the shopkeeper will have his early day in the week; but if it is a Monday, he will almost certainly have it in the week before, because it would be rather difficult not to. That is the rather simple, human
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situation with which he is dealing, and he does not want to be prosecuted, whichever he does. The elegant way to do that, from the point of view of draftsmanship, would be to tell him that that is what he can do, and that it will be all right if he does it. But, when the draftsman is faced with that apparently simple task, he discovers an awkward fact. In the case, particularly, of the Monday (I think the point would apply mutatis mutandis in the other case, but I will take the Monday), what the draftsman wants to do is to insist, as a condition of allowing the shopkeeper to change his early closing day, that he really does play fair; in other words, that he keeps shut on the Monday. I hope that so far I am being followed. He does not get the privilege of changing his early closing day if he keeps open on the Monday. That is the idea that the draftsman has in mind, and it seems to me, within reason, to be a very good idea.
It would be a simple piece of draftsmanship to tell a shopkeeper, "You can change your early closing day in the week preceding the week containing Whit Monday and get away with it." He would simply say "It will be lawful for you to change your early closing day in the week preceding the week containing the non-business day." But if that were put in the Bill, the effect would be that the shopkeeper could change his early closing day and then remain open on the Monday; and that, of course, is not what he draftsman intends to achieve. I will come back to that point in a moment, because it may be that this is the point at which one could acquire simplification at the expense of laxity.
In order to achieve what he means to achieve, the draftsman has to do an inelegant thing, that is, instead of rendering it unlawful for the shopkeeper to change his early closing day in the week preceding the non-business day he has to provide that, if he afterwards gets prosecuted for doing so, he shall have a defence. From the point of view of elegance, and from the point of view of the comprehensibility and intelligibility of the clause, that is where he goes wrong. It is at that stage that the clause becomes difficult to understand. Instead of saying: "You may do this," he says: "If you are prosecuted for doing it, you shall have a defence." It is intrinsically

913
an inelegant thing to do, and that—I have spent some time thinking about this—is the point at which the draftsman appears to go wrong.
The reason he has to do it is this. If nothing were done, what the shopkeeper would be prosecuted for, if he were prosecuted, would be for having his early closing day on the Thursday instead of, say, on the Wednesday. If he chooses to change it in that way, he is committing his offence on the Wednesday when he stays open, the Wednesday being the early closing day. Whether that is an offence or not at the time when it is committed depends, not on anything which has happened so far but on what is going to happen in the following week—or, rather, on what is not going to happen in the following week, namely, his not opening the shop on the non-business day in the following week. I hope I am making myself plain.
It is an extremely complicated piece of legal reasoning, but I think it is perfectly intelligible wording, although I must confess that it was not entirely plain to me until I addressed myself to this Amendment. What the Parliamentary draftsman has persuaded me of is that if the clause is to say everything that is desired, it is necessary to set about it in the way in which he has done. Personally, being inclined to be lax, I should be disposed to run the risk of the shopkeeper's keeping open on Whit Monday or Easter Monday, and say simply that he may change his early closing day in the preceding week or to a non-business day the same week. There would be a good deal of sense in that. I will consider it. But the price one would have to pay for that is that in the odd case in which a shopkeeper does not play fair—that is to say, when he keeps his shop open on the non-business day—he cannot be prosecuted for changing his early closing day. I hope I have now made the matter clear.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL had given Notice of an Amendment to leave out Clause 9 and insert the following new clause:
Voluntary change of early closing day in, or in week before, week in which non-business day falls
"9.—(l) Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) of this section where in a week in which a day is as respects a shop required by this Part of this Act to be observed as an early closing day a week-day other than that
914
so required to be so observed is a non-business day, then, the occupier of the shop may keep displayed in The prescribed manner while the shop is open during such a week a notice in the prescribed form nominating a day being a business day as the early closing day for that week and the day to be observed as the early closing day in that week shall be the day so nominated.
(2) The provisions of the foregoing subsection shall not apply to the three weeks of Christmastide."
The noble Earl said: We are all deeply indebted to the noble and learned Viscount for that really unique exposition of an extraordinarily complicated clause. I think it is not casting any slur at all on the intelligence of the ordinary person, the shopkeeper or the layman, to say that, when studying this clause, it might have been more difficult for them to elucidate but for the simplicity and clarity shown by the noble and learned Viscount opposite. If that is the case, then surely there is a good deal of substance in what he said about the desirability of simplicity, even if it means a certain kind of laxity, because it is essential that the provisions of this Bill should be understood. Thai was made perfectly plain by the Gower; Committee.
I accept gratefully the suggestion of the noble Earl, the Lord Chairman, that we should discuss together all three Amendments to this clause. I do not propose to say anything about mine because it is so similar to that which precedes it in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Milverton and Lord Burden. There is only one small difference and I will not go into that. But if the noble and learned Viscount would be good enough to think about the drafting of this clause—so to speak, the techniques, accepting the difficulty which the draftsman has pointed out—between now and the Report stage, that would perhaps give the Committee chance to draft a simpler form of words which would achieve the object which we all have in mind.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I will certainly undertake that that shall be done, but I cannot say what the consequences of the consideration will be. In our view it is vital that the right to change the early closing day in the week preceding should be retained, and I think noble Lords would probably be of the same opinion as we are. I do not myself see that it is vital to guard against the odd shopkeeper who keeps his shop open on

915
a non-business day, but it may be that those who are responsible more directly than I am for administering the law will say that it is, in which case we shall not be able to do much about it. I know that what your Lordships have said will be studied carefully. I hope I have said enough to show that I have a great deal of sympathy with it.
LORD MATHERS: I realise that I am up against a great difficulty in seeking to contend with such an adversary as the noble and learned Viscount, and I certainly accept the spirit in which he has looked at these Amendments. So far as I am concerned, I am happy to leave the matter in the position in which he has asked that it should be left—that he may have a look at it. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MILVERTON: I am deeply grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for the amazing lucidity with which he has thrown light on this matter. It is quite true that the poet talked about the "life that never was on sea or land." Obviously, he had never met the noble Viscount! I have great pleasure in accepting his assurances and do not propose to move my Amendment.
Clause 9 agreed to.
Clause 10:
Sales for which shops may remain open after 1 p.m. on early closing days
10. Notwithstanding the proviso to subsection (1) of section one of this Act, a shop may, on a day required by this Part of this Act to be observed as respects the shop as an early closing day.—
(b) remain open for the sale of goods of any kind specified in Part II of that Schedule during any period during which it could, without contravention of the foregoing provisions of this Part of this Act, remain open for the sale of goods of that kind if that day wore not so required to be so observed.
3.14 p.m.
LORD MILVERTON LORD MILVERTON moved, after "Act," where that word first occurs, to insert:
"but subject to compliance by the occupier with such conditions as may be prescribed by regulations"
The noble Lord said: This clause enables a shop to remain open on an early closing day for the sale until two o'clock
916
in the afternoon of fried fish and fried potato chips, and later still for the sale of the goods set out in Part II of the First Schedule to this Bill. It is, of course, the case that shops which sell the goods referred to may also ordinarily sell a much wider range. Clearly, it is difficult to control the sale of goods other than the permitted goods on early closing day. If a customer can see something which he wants in a shop which is not closed against him, naturally, it seems unreasonable to him that he is not permitted to buy it.
The regulations which are at present in force under the Shops Act, 1950, provide that the occupier of a mixed shop has to display appropriate notices and to refrain from exhibiting goods in a class not permitted to be sold. This requirement helps to explain the position to the customer and to put the temptation both to him and to the shopkeeper out of the way. Experience suggests that the average law-abiding shopkeeper is not usually averse to the exhibition of such notices, as it assists him and his assistants and the public to be readily aware of the transactions permissible on early closing days. Many favour the use of the notices because it helps to convince the customers that the refusal to sell certain goods is not just wilful discrimination on the part of the shopkeeper. But the fact that a notice is displayed also strengthens the evidence in cases of contravention of the law. I understand that the present Bill will have the effect of causing the existing regulations to cease to operate, and since I think they serve a useful purpose the Amendment proposed is drafted to permit the Secretary of State to make similar regulations in the future. May I repeat, that the idea of the Amendment is to try to assist in the operation of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 31, after ("Act") insert the said words.—(Lord Milverton.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: This is an Amendment which I am sorry to say we do not like quite so much. I fully appreciate the argument in favour of it. I think two points can be made in favour of it—both legitimate points. The first is that under the existing law, which it is the real object of the Amendment to preserve, the local authority is more able to enforce it; and the second is that the shopkeeper has a sort of moral

917
cushion to rest upon when he says, "No," to his customer. He can point to a list of goods which he cannot sell, and he may even be required by regulation to hide up those goods lest his customer goes mad with desire. But, on the whole, we think that this Bill is a liberalising improvement of the law. We have been accused in some quarters of imposing additional restrictions. This is a case in which we are reducing the restrictions and the burdens on shopkeepers.
We understand that amongst the enforcement it authorities there is a difference of opinion as to the value of the existing regulations. I am told that the London County Council have expressed the view that they are of no real value, and I am afraid that the requirements to cover up or hide away the forbidden goods are often ignored in practice and it would be difficult, if not impossible, to enforce them. If they were enforced it would probably impose an intolerable burden on the shopkeeper. Therefore we think that the balance of advantages is against this Amendment, and we would ask the Committee not to pass it.
LORD MILVERTON: I thank the noble Viscount for the consideration which lie has given to this Amendment. I shall not press it, and I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved to add to the clause:
"(c) remain open until seven o'clock in the evening for the sale of mechanically propelled vehicles."
The noble Lord said: I want the help of the noble Viscount here. I put forward this Amendment, hoping that he will accept it, for these reasons. A place where a mechanically propelled vehicle is sold, although technically a retail shop, can range from some of the most elaborate showrooms such as one sees in Piccadilly or in the main street of any of our large provincial towns, right down to a small space in a service station where one or two vehicles are displayed. In the Second Schedule to this Bill the Committee will find these words:
"Transactions permissible in Great Britain at any time on weekdays and in England and Wales at any time on Sundays
11. The sale of parts of, or accessories to, or fuel or lubricants for, vessels, aircraft,
918
mechanically propelled vehicles, cycles, or agricultural machinery or equipment."
In other words, at any time of the day or night for seven days a week service is available in respect of mechanically propelled vehicles. At one time I thought of moving the insertion of a provision in regard to the sale of mechanically propelled vehicles, so as to get complete exemption; but on the other hand I do not want to see motor vehicle showrooms open on Sunday. I do not want to see these used-car parks that one may see all over the country doing business on a Sunday, as they do to-day—as the noble and learned Viscount no doubt knows, in contravention of the law. Perhaps when this measure becomes an Act the law will be more rigidly enforced.
There is a case to be made, however—the case which I seek to make by this Amendment—in relation to the opening on the early closing day only of a motor vehicle showroom or a place open for the sale of mechanically propelled vehicles. I do not seek to have them open any later than 7 o'clock except for the one day at 3 o'clock, but I do seek to exempt them from having a closing half-day. My reason is that I feel that that provision would be unenforceable. The noble and learned Viscount will know that a motor vehicle showroom or a place at which motor vehicles are sold is not, strictly speaking, operated as a retail shop. It does not employ shop assistants. I suppose 90 per cent. of the mechanically propelled vehicles sold in this country are sold away from the showroom.
I will tell the noble and learned Viscount why I say that the provision would be as unenforceable as it is to-day, unless, of course, the noble and learned Viscount prays in aid Clause 12. That, again, is very difficult to enforce. As I interpret the clause, it means that no article cap be sold away from the retail shop on a day or during a time when that retail shop is supposed to be closed. If I were a salesman in a motor-vehicle shop and wished to sell the noble and learned Viscount a motor car upon the half-day on which that shop was closed, and took him to a neighbouring golf course, could then self it to him? That is the dilemma in which one is placed when one tries to apply this Bill to an article which is mobile and can be, and is, taken away,

919
to be sold, from the place where it sometimes rests. I suggest to the noble and learned Viscount that the law could not be enforced.
Perhaps I could have some free legal advice from the noble and learned Viscount. If he gives me a verbal order on a golf-course for a motor-car, outside the hours which are specified here, could he, if he wanted to, repudiate the verbal contract next day on the ground that I had sold him the vehicle in contravention of the law? I would suggest that, on the grounds that I have set out, it would be advisable for this Amendment to be male to the Bill. One last ground upon which I would advocate its acceptance is that people come in from the country on Saturday afternoon to do just this kind of transaction. No man ever buys a motorcar without his wife, and very likely all his family, with him; he probably gets into hot water if he does. The half day on which all other shops are shut is the very day when mast shopkeepers and assistants transact their business of this kind.
May I ask the noble and learned Viscount one last question? I have put down the words "mechanically propelled vehicles", so I am afraid that the noble and learned Viscount or myself will have to find a definition. Would he tell me whether he thinks that within the phrase "mechnically propelled vehicles" one would include a trailer or a caravan? Admittedly it is a type of vehicle propelled by a mechanically propelled vehicle; but would it fall within the category of a mechanically propelled vehicle here? I wish to include it because it is as necessary to have such vehicles included in this clause as to have the Amendment in the Schedule I have just mentioned, for the reason that it is as necessary for spare parts to be obtainable for a trailer or a caravan as for the mechanically propelled vehicle by which it is being pulled. I hope that I have made myself clear to the noble and learned Viscount. My object here is to exempt premises from which mechanically propelled vehicles are sold from the obligation to have an early closing day, so that they may remain open until 7 o'clock and be exempt from the early closing regulation. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 42, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
LORD BURDEN: The noble and learned Viscount, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, promised to look again at this matter to see what could be done in regard to it. In principle I agree with this Amendment, but, as I read it, it would be limited in extent to the number of shops that could be open. It would justify only shops which were owner-occupied. I am very sorry I have jumped up a little too early. I beg your Lordships' pardon.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: As the Committee will remember, the noble Lord who has just sat down was perfectly right. We made an exception in the case of sweets on the ground that it was the subject of what I have learned to call the "impulse" trade, affecting people who see a sweet shop and must rush in to buy a bar of chocolate because they cannot resist the impulse, and who, if they do not do so, will not get the impulse again at breakfast time next morning. I hope those who wish to buy motor vehicles are not, as a rule, victims of an impulse of a similar irresistible and non-recurring kind. I am not sure that the same case exists for this Amendment as existed in relation to that for sweets, but there are some reasons for agreeing to consider the Amendment.
Garages can remain open, owing to the operation of the clause in the Second Schedule to which Lord Lucas of Chilworth drew attention, and transactions for the sale of cars are of a kind perhaps unusual in ordinary shopping. It might well be that if a garage was open for the sale of petrol and it happened to have a motor show-room attached that it would be difficult to prevent the sale, in one way or another, of motor cars on early closing day but during the garage's opening time. I think, therefore, that, on the grounds of enforceability, there is an arguable case, though, of course, many motor show-rooms are not garages. Indeed, there are in the suburbs, as I think the noble Lord himself said, vast car parks which are hardly motor showrooms but at which transactions of this kind often take place. Therefore, we are disposed to consider this Amendment. We have so far had no pressure from the owners of motor show-rooms or, indeed, of these car parks, for permission

921
to open on early closing day. We would seek to explore the ground a little more fully before we committed ourselves. We are certainly willing to consider this matter and to consider it more fully. I, personally, do not know whether it will be possible to frame an Amendment which will serve, but I am hopeful that we shall be able to meet the noble Lord some way. Perhaps he can accept that assurance.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am grateful to the noble Viscount, and I willingly leave the matter to him. Might I, at this point, say that I am seeking here to do two things. I seek to allow opening on the half-day, but l do not wish the sale of motor vehicles to be concurrent with the opening of the service place on Sunday. If an Amendment can be framed to ensure that, I shall be grateful. As regards the noble Viscount's statement that no pressure has been brought to bear upon him, may I say that perhaps those concerned paid me the compliment of thinking that my pressure would be sufficient—which evidently it is going to be. I thank the noble Viscount for what he has said, and I am going to beg leave to withdraw my Amendment. Before doing so, however, I should like to ask the noble Viscount whether he will look into the matter which I have raised with respect to trailers and caravans—in other words, vehicles which can be drawn by a mechanically propelled vehicle.
VISCOUNT HA1LSHAM: I ought not to allow myself to be drawn at all on the question of the law by the noble Lord's attractive questions, hut, personally, I do not think there is any doubt at all that a caravan or a trailer is not a mechanically propelled vehicle. If it were desired to include such vehicles in an Amendment, it would be necessary to do so in some other form of words. As I say, I personally have no doubts upon this point although I have riot taken advice upon it.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am grateful to the noble Viscount. Perhaps he will consider some wording to add the classes of vehicles I have mentioned to the mechanically propelled vehicles which are now specified in the Amendment.
I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 10 agreed to.
Clause 11:
Special provisions with respect to the sale of certain refreshments for off-consumption
11.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in section one of this Act or a requirement subsisting by virtue of paragraph (i) of subsection (1) of section four thereof, a shop which is registered under this section may—

(a) on any weekday, be open at any time for the sale, for consumption elsewhere than in the shop, of refreshments to which this section applies, other than fried fish or fried potato chips;

(b) on a weekday other than one required by this Part of this Act to be observed as respects the shop as an early closing day, be open at any time for the sale, for consumption elsewhere than in the shop, of fried fish and fried potato chips or either of them.

3.34 p.m.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved in subsection (1), after the first word "shop" to insert "the occupier of". The noble Lord said: This clause attempts to deal to some extent with the case of the mixed shop, the shop where varying types of retail trade are carried on, for some of which later hours are permitted than for others. The clause lays down, as one of the particular matters of importance, that the local authority have to be satisfied that it is the applicant's intention that the business carried on at the shop should consist"as to the whole or a substantial part thereof" in the sale of food. This Amendment seeks to provide net for registering the shop—as has to be done under the clause—but for registering the occupier.
The point is that, in the case of these mixed shops, when a shop changes hands the type of trade often changes also to some extent. It seems to me to be more reasonable, therefore, that the occupier should be the person registered, so that, when a shop changes hands, the new occupier is able to apply for registration. Under subsection (3) of the clause there is machinery whereby the local authority can cancel the registration. It does not seem to me to be very reasonable that a new occupier should have his registration cancelled when he, as an occupier, has never applied for registration, since it is the shop that is registered. The object

923
of the Amendment is to make the occupier the registered person, instead of the shop the registered thing. There is a good precedent for this in the present Shops Act, Section 53 (8), by which, in the case of Jewish shops, it is the occupiers, who are registered. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 3, after ("shop") insert ("the occupier of").—(Lord Derwent.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I find this a very difficult matter, but we should prefer to resist this Amendment. As my noble friend has indicated, the object of these Amendments—the one which he has just moved is the first of a series—is to provide for the registration under Clauses 11 and 18 of occupiers of shops, instead of registration of premises. The noble Lord has in mind, in particular, the case where an occupier changes. It may or may not be the case, when an occupier changes, that the business carried on will be the same business; hut, on the whole, we consider that to cause a new registration to be made every time the occupation of a shop changes is to impose an additional and unnecessary burden on occupiers of premises.
Under subsection (3) of the clause, it is open to the local authority to cancel the registration of a shop in the circumstances there set out, if they are satisfied that the business is no longer correctly described there. Quite apart from the additional burden on the shopkeeper, we believe that it would certainly be complicated, and might even not be practicable, to amend Clause 11 so as to relate the registration of a person to the trade carried on at a particular shop. Once one starts categorising particular trades carried on by particular persons, one gets into very deep water indeed. We feel, therefore, that it would be better to keep to the general scheme of the closing hours provisions of the Bill, which generally relate to shops, rather than to shopkeepers.
Of course, this involves some difference between the shopkeeper whose premises are registered and the trader who carries on his business from a barrow or van, which is in a different position. But the reason for the difference lies in the difference in the difficulties of enforcement. The difficulty of enforcement in relation to barrows is to find the barrows
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at any particular time, because they move, about. Shops do not. The only difficulty of enforcement in relation to shops is that there are so many of them. On the whole, therefore, we should prefer to keep the existing provisions and not accept my noble friend's Amendment.
LORD DERWENT: I thank my noble friend but, with great respect, I think he is making heavy weather of the matter. He speaks as if shops change their owners every week. The fact remains that under the clause a substantial part of the business of mixed shops has to be in the sale of food, and to require the new occupier who buys a shop to apply for registration does not seem to me to be any hardship. I would ask my noble friend to look at this matter again. I am not going to press it because, although I do not think so, he may be right. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved to add to subsection (2):
"The provisions of this section shall apply to persons carrying on retail trade or business from stalls or vehicles situate on particular sites and to itinerant traders selling goods by retail."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment seeks to provide that traders from fixed pitches and itinerant traders should also have to be registered. I should like to deal with the two separately. Under Clause 12 (3) the fixed pitch trader will be permitted to sell articles of food after the general closing hour without having to establish that a substantial part of his business is the sale of food. I suggest that it is only fair that the trader selling from a fixed pitch should not be able to undertake what I consider to be unfair competition when it is perfectly easy, if he is on a fixed pitch, to have him registered. The trader from a fixed stall or pitch also has an opportunity of voting in any poll affecting his class of business, if he has a pitch for not less than six months. I do not see how, without registration, it is going to be established that a trader has been there for six months. These fixed pitches compete seriously with small shops and for that reason I think that they should be registered.
I know that the case of the itinerant vendor is more difficult. I should not like to lose this Amendment just for the sake of the itinerant trader, but many of them

925
have the same round, particularly in country areas, and I do not think it would be very difficult to have them registered. Again, if my noble friend will not accept the registration of the itinerant trader, may I ask him to accept registration of the Eked pitch trader? I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 27, at end insert the said words. —(Lord Derwent.)
LORD BURDEN: I am rather interested in the application the noble Lord will make of this Amendment, if it is accepted. For instance, how would he apply it to the man selling baked chestnuts or baked potatoes in winter time? The baked potato seller used to be a feature of London life years ago, though he is not so much a feature now. And what about those places known to people who keep late hours in London as coffee stalls, where one can get a hunk of bread and butter and a hot saveloy in the early hours of the morning: are they the sort of places we want to have registered so that restrictions shall apply to them? How would local authorities set about the job of controlling the baked chestnut man?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: All this rather illustrates the difficulties of draftsmanship. I gather that my noble friend's Amendment relates only to stalls or vehicles. Front my recollection of the seller of baked potatoes. I am not sure what he sold his potatoes from, but if it was a cart, which I suspect is usual, then his case would come under the provisions regarding a vehicle. If, on the other hand, it was a table, I do not think that it could be called either a stall or a vehicle. At any rate, I do not feel that it falls to me to interpret the Amendment, since my right honourable friend and I are inclined again to resist it. The bent of our minds is in favour of freedom, whenever freedom can be observed. Stalls, vehicles and tables, and everything else, are within the ambit of Clause 12, and I do not think it is necessary to register any of them, the vehicles because registration will not help us to find them and the stalls because it will not add much to what we already have.
LORD DERWENT: Again, this is not an Amendment I am going to press, but the fact remains that fixed pitch trading
926
has a detrimental effect in certain areas on small shops, who cannot compete on level terms. When it comes to the man who has a round, there are difficulties, but a coffee stall is usually a fixed pitch. I would ask my noble friend to look at this point again, because there is a considerable amount of ill feeling about it. I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 11 shall stand part of the Bill?
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I hope that the noble Viscount will respond to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, and say that he will have another look at this matter. I have not well enough prepared myself to support the amendments, but I have a good deal of sympathy with them, and I would welcome the chance of some consultation elsewhere between now and the Report stage. I should be grateful to the noble Viscount if he were able to say that he would have another look at the matter.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I know that what has been said will reach my right honourable friend. I hope that it will not be thought that I was adopting an intransigent or dogmatic view towards either of these Amendments. I am hound to say that the strong bent of my mind is against them and I do not want to hold out any hopes that there will be any change in that bent, but I know that what has been said so well and so moderately by my noble friend and by the noble Viscount opposite will be conveyed to my right honourable friend and we shall certainly have what is said in mind if we come to a change of opinion. I would be more than glad to do a favour to my noble friend or to the noble Viscount or to those whose views they represent.
Clause 11 agreed to.
3.49 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH had given notice of his intention to move a new clause making special provisions for shops selling table waters, sweets, et cetera. The noble Lord said: In view of what the noble Viscount said on the first Amendment, I do not propose to worry your Lordships even by moving this Amendment.
Clauses 12 to 15 agreed to.
Clause 16 [Offences under Part I]:
LORD MILVERTON LORD MILVERTON moved, after subsection (2) to insert:
"(3) In the event of a failure to notify the local authority as required by subsection (8) of section two of this Act or by that subsection as applied by subsection (6) of section three thereof, the occupier of the shop shall be guilty of an offence."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment really relates to an Amendment which I moved on Clause 2. The noble and learned Viscount was kind enough to say he would bring that to the notice of his right honourable friend, and on that assurance I withdrew the Amendment. Clause 16 sets out the circumstances in which failure to observe the preceding provisions of the Bill creates an offence. The Amendment proposed merely noted the creation of an offence in not notifying the local authority, which was the Amendment I moved to Clause 2. As the previous Amendment was withdrawn, naturally I shall ask leave to withdraw this one, on, I hope, the same assurance from the noble and learned Viscount that the attention of his right honourable friend will be drawn to it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 6, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Milverton.)
LORD BURDEN: I should like to say a word or two in support of this Amendment. The local authorities attach some importance to this Amendment, linking up as it does with the previous one. We feel that the Bill should be clear as to the position of local authorities and should give them guidance as to their work and the authority for them to carry out the provisions of the Bill. The noble Viscount promised consideration of the previous Amendment, and I hope that this one will receive the same consideration. I think it is necessary to impress upon those concerned that the local authorities feel keenly that this and the previous Amendment are necessary if they are to do their duty under the Bill, when it becomes an Act.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I have not considered this Amendment separately from the other, because my view was that if the other Amendment had been accepted it would have been logical and, indeed, necessary, to insert this Amendment in the Bill in order to give some
928
sanction for what was proposed; and if the other Amendment were dropped and finally not included in the Bill, this one would be unnecessary. I had therefore assumed that my assurance which covered the former Amendment covered this one. With that assurance, I hope that both my noble friend and the noble Lord will not press this Amendment.
LORD MILVERTON: I am glad to accept the assurance of the noble and learned Viscount, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16 agreed to.
Clause 17:
Extent of Part II
17. This Part of this Act extends to England and Wales only.
LORD MATHERS LORD MATHERS moved to delete Clause 17. The noble Lord said: It is not possible to doubt the purpose of this Amendment. Scotland, so far as I can ascertain, wishes to have any benefits that she can receive from this Bill. When the Gowers Committee was inquiring into these matters ten years ago, it was assumed, and indeed stated, that there need not be any concern about Sunday opening of shops in Scotland, because the Sabbatarian attitude in Scotland was sufficient to safeguard the position. That was ten years ago, and a great deal has happened in those ten years. All those with whom I have discussed this Bill (and I have discussed it not only with representative people, but with people interested in the workers' side in shops. with the owners of shops and with people interested in seeing that Sunday is observed as a different day; that is to say, people connected with the churches) are agreed that they wish to have this exemption of Scotland from this Part of the Bill deleted from the Bill, in order that Scotland should get any benefits that can be achieved by regulations and decisions that are made. There are many people who are not of a Sabbatarian turn of mind who would fight strenuously to have Sunday observed as a separate and different day and a day to which other considerations than apply to week-days should apply, but only from the point of view of the increased pay that they can get for working on that day, and not from any feeling of reverence.
I believe it is right that there should be a certain code laid down, as it is laid down in this Bill, regarding the carrying on of activities of this kind on a Sunday. These provisions apply to England and Wales, and there is this regret that there is not the same regulation in respect of the opening of shops on Sunday in Scotland. Different considerations apply and different views obtain in different parts of Scotland regarding the way in which Sunday should be observed. This Bill would provide for that, because its administration would be in the hands of the local authorities, but it would not require to be quite so permissive as is set out in another clause in the Bill which I am seeking to amend later. The local authorities must take cognisance of the position and must seek to enforce the law that will be in operation if Scotland is included in Part II of the Bill. That would mean that the local authorities would have that obligation laid upon them, and it would be necessary for the inhabitants of the different local authority areas to sec that what was done was in accordance with their wishes. That would be done by the ordinary democratic means of questioning those who are in charge of their affairs and insisting upon the point of view that the inhabitants hold in the different areas being respected. I think I have said enough to make clear what I seek to do by moving the deletion of Clause 17. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 17.—(Lord Mathers.)
4.0 p.m.
THE MINISTER OR STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD STRATHCLYDE): am grateful to the noble Lord for having moved this Amendment, thereby providing an opportunity of discussing this matter, which is one of considerable importance to people in Scotland, not only shopkeepers and their assistants but also to the public who, as the noble Lord has said, have their own views as to the observance of Sunday. I wonder whether your Lordships will bear with me a moment if I recall that this question of Sunday was debated on a number of occasions, between the two wars. In the 1930's, as the noble Lord will probably remember, there were a number of Private Bills put down in another place and debated there, the object of which was to restrict the opening of shops in
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Scotland on Sundays. The noble Lord will also remember that in 1936, when the English Act which forms the basis of Part II of this Bill was passed, an Amendment to apply the restrictions to Scotland was rejected after a full discussion.
The noble Lord has referred to what the Gowers Committee said. It might be as well if I put on record the actual words they used. What they said was:
"We have little evidence of any demand for a Sunday Trading Restriction Act in Scotland and no ground for recommending that one should be passed."
I believe that, on the evidence produced to them, no one would doubt that that conclusion was justified. But, of course, the noble Lord has argued that there has been a considerable change in the situation during these past ten years. Indeed, I think I might infer from his remarks that he considers that there has been a considerable growth in Sunday trading, and that it now presents a serious problem, not only to the shopkeepers but to those other; of us who cherish the traditional Scottish view of the Sabbath. I would say to your Lordships that that view has been strongly pressed, both on myself and on my colleague, and as late as last Friday my honourable friend the Joint Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, Mr. Macpherson, received a deputation from thirteen Scottish retail trade organisations, the Co-operative Union and the Shop Assistants' Union, who advanced in great detail much the sane argument that has been followed by the noble Lord this afternoon.
I should like to examine the arguments put forward. I would say that one of our difficulties is that, so far, we have been unable to obtain any definite evidence to prove that Sunday trading has recently shown a marked increase, or that it has now reached any substantial proportions. Last year, Mr. Macpherson's predecessor in the office he now holds asked a deputation, similarly composed to that which came to the Scottish Office last week, if they could show figures which would demonstrate the extent of Sunday trading. No figures have, in fact, been supplied. I do not make any complaint about that, because one must recognise that it is difficult for those without any official sources of information to help in that way. But in the interval we ourselves have obtained some figures, and

931
I must say that they do not altogether bear out the statement which the noble Lord has made to-day.
We asked the shops inspectorates in Edinburgh and Glasgow to make a rough count of the number of shops which were open on Sunday. The Sunday we chose was November 18 last. They reported that in Glasgow there were 3,576 shops open, and in Edinburgh 1,102. We compared the figure with the figures that have been obtained officially on a Sunday in 1933. On that Sunday, 5,650 shops were open in Glasgow and 2,000 in Edinburgh. So between those two periods there has been a considerable diminution in the number of shops open on Sunday. It may well be that there has been an increase since 1946. I should be rather surprised if there had not been, for, after all, one would expect that there would be an increase after the war-time shortages had disappeared. But I do not know of any factual evidence that Sunday trading is growing, and I think perhaps it may already have settled down to a level below what it was pre-war or is now in the process of settling down at such a level.
I should like to indicate to your Lordships why I think that might be a reasonable conjecture. In the debates that were held twenty to thirty years ago, it was always recognised that we in Scotland have a long tradition of Sabbath observance. For a great many generations, of course, we have treated Sunday as a day set apart, to be used quite differently from the other six days in the week. One of the main reasons for the rejection in 1936 of the proposal to apply the English restrictions to Scotland was, as I think the noble Lord indicated, that any Scottish community could be relied upon, without the support of the law, to hold to a reasonable minimum the number of shops open on the Sabbath day. Of course, public conscience is involved. As the noble Lord will notice, and as he said, the climate of opinion in each town or village decides what activities should be countenanced on Sunday, and it was felt that this was sufficient. It has been suggested to-day by the noble Lord that those restraints have now broken down. I wonder what the Scottish Churches would say to that argument?
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: They would support it.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I doubt that very much, and I shall allude to that in a moment or two. I doubt if the noble Viscount has any just cause to say that. At any rate, at the Scottish Office we have so far received no representations from the Churches; and, incidentally, they did not submit any evidence before the Gowers Committee. Nor, so far as I know, has any of them yet publicly indicated what its attitude is to the proposals we are debating at this moment.
I wonder whether I might look at the proposals a little more closely. The Amendment would apply Part II of the Bill to Scotland. Of course, that would not mean that Sunday trading would come to an end, because the Bill provides for a large number of exceptions. Any food shop, except a butcher's, may open up to 10 a.m. on Sunday if it registers with the local authority. Shops registered with the local authority for the sale of refreshments for off-consumption can open up to any hour, and if the noble Lord looks at the Second and Third Schedules he will find there a list of twenty-nine types of transaction which may be carried on on Sundays. The Fourth Schedule increases that number by another seven which may be allowed on Sundays at fishing ports and holiday resorts—a term, the noble Lord will realise, which in future is to be much more widely defined.
LORD MATHERS: The noble Lord says that that will be the result. It may be the result if the local authority agree. Is that not the position?
LORD STRATHCLYDE: No—if the shops are registered with the local authority.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: May I ask the noble Lord a question? Has there been any direct request from Scotland for closing on Sundays in Scotland?
LORD STRATHCLYDE: The noble Marquess asks me whether there has been a direct request from Scotland. I have just been telling your Lordships that last Friday we had a deputation representative of thirteen different bodies, and also of the co-operative societies. I do not know

933
whether the noble Marquess would consider that a direct request from Scotland or not; it certainly is a request.
I do not criticise in any way noble Lords opposite for seeking to apply to Scotland this scheme of restrictions as it stands, because it seems that, if the wishes of the noble Lords are to be carried out, that is the only reasonable way to do it. This whole question of exemptions has always been difficult, and it would appear to me that the Gowers Committee's solution is about as sensible as one could find. It seems to me, further, that the Gowers Committee thought the only really defensible criterion to apply was what I may call the legitimate needs of the consumer. If a member of the public ordinarily and reasonably bought any particular article on a Sunday, the Committee thought that he should continue to be able to do so. Certainly by its scheme of exemptions the Bill gives effect to this conception in England and Wales. I would invite the noble Lord to ask himself if that is what we want in Scotland.
If we look for a moment at how it would work out in practice, we at the Scottish Office have tried to estimate the effect on Sunday trading, as it is carried on at present in Glasgow and Edinburgh, of applying Part II of the Bill. What it comes to is this: if we applied Part II of the Bill to Scotland, in Glasgow some 845 of the 3,000-odd shops—about a quarter of them—would be closed, and in Edinburgh out of 1,100 only some 70. Then one has to consider whether or not there is an offset to that; and in my opinion there is. We must recognise that some shopkeepers who would be exempted from the statutory requirements to close might well choose to open on Sundays, although they have not hitherto done so. So, in short, whilst the application of the code in the Bill might alter the types of shop which remain open, it might leave virtually unchanged the total amount of Sunday trading. That is the conclusion to which I come, and in these circumstances it does not seem to me that it is worth enacting a rather complicated code of Sunday restrictions.
There is another point that arises. Of course, if we are to enforce these restrictions, then it will be necessary to have an inspectorate—I think that that is what the noble Lord was alluding to in the
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latter part of his speech. The inspectorate would have to be augmented from the present total, because up till now there has been no question of inspecting shops on Sundays. I do not think anyone likes to contemplate an unnecessary increase in the number of inspectors. I imagine that that would be quite abhorrent to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, after what he said on the subject last Thursday—I think his actual words were that he held them "in abhorrence". I suppose he would like there to be more of them appointed, but the Government's intention is this. It is to apply only those restrictions which can be shown to be necessary in order to preserve a fair balance between the shopper, the shopkeeper and his assistant.
I thought that in his speech the noble Lord rather overlooked one point, and that is Clause 39, because in that clause we are for the first time applying to Scotland Sunday employment provisions for the protection of shop assistants. The noble Lord may remember that under these provisions the assistant will be entitled to a day off in lieu of a Sunday when he works for more than four hours, or a half-day in lieu of a Sunday when he works for a shorter period of time than that; and he will be entitled also to at least one Sunday off duty in every four. This recognises the legitimate needs of those shop assistants who are required to work on the first day of the week.
I ask your Lordships: by the test of a fair balance, such as I have just mentioned, can it really be said that Sunday trading restrictions in Scotland are justified? I am bound to say that, if I may use a term quite familiar to us Scotsmen, the verdict would be "not proven". My right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I are quite prepared to examine with open minds any further evidence that may be submitted to us, and to consider any further views that may be expressed, either by the Churches or from any other quarter. But I suggest to your Lordships that, for the present at least, the case for this Amendment has not been established. I am afraid that I cannot accept it.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I am obliged to the noble Lord for the detail with which he has

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gone into the case submitted by my noble friend Lord Mathers on this matter, but I hope he will forgive me if I say that I do not agree with all the premises upon which he has come to his conclusion. I should like especially to say, first of all, that I am glad to know that the trade unions, the co-operative societies and the traders' associations were all represented in a deputation to his right honourable friend on this matter. I beg him to believe that, whilst those people come to him in a quite secular manner, in many cases, to deal with the growth, as they see it, of Sunday trading, it does not destroy in any way the real basic case which the Churches feel about the need for legislation in this matter.
I am not going to say that I could speak—surely not, as a Sassenach—on behalf of the organised Churches or Synods. Certainly, I should not dare to do so. But I do say that if one examines the paper which was prepared on Sunday observance and legislation for the report which was adopted by the British Council of Churches, which is an all-embracing body, this particular matter is dealt with in a way which concerns Scotland very much indeed. If the noble Lord has not seen this particular report, I hope he will get a copy. If he cannot, or if he has not had one submitted to his Department, he can have this one.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I have had a copy.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: Then I am rather concerned, if the noble Lord has had it and read it, that he should take this view about the religious attitude to this matter in Scotland, because I think their view is clearly set out in the last paragraph of their report. Before I quote from it, may I say that it is clear, from the appendix to the report which was submitted to them, that the old law of Scotland concerning Sunday trading—I shall not quote it all, as it is far too long—has fallen largely into desuetude. The comment of the British Council of Churches upon that matter is this:
"It therefore appeared to the groups that there was need for some re-examination of the law in regard to Sunday. It is a clear Christian judgment that the Churches should not desire even useful provisions to rest upon laws that are archaic and in bad repair."
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I feel that is the view of the Churches in general.
When I come to the actual facts, I must say that the noble Lord produced some quite startling statistics based entirely on a new and specialised count in the great cities of Glasgow and Edinburgh. But the real complaints concerning the development of Sunday trading in Scotland which have been brought to my notice have not been so much with regard to Edinburgh and Glasgow (although they are included) as with regard to the growth of Sunday trading upon housing estates all over Scotland—not only in the big cities, but in different parts of Perthshire, Fifeshire, Stirlingshire and other counties which have been quoted. Naturally, the co-operative societies are concerned, because this has had such a considerable effect upon their business. In one case, which I think is quite shocking, one co-operative society now open their branch on the housing estate, because otherwise they would lose their trade during the rest of the week.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: Perhaps the noble Viscount would give me the name of it later on; I do not want it now.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I will give the specific case. In matters of this kind the co-operative Union in Scotland have always sought not to become sectarian or to interfere in the general religious views of the people, or in their practices in accordance with those views. But when it comes to the co-operative societies' being forced competitively to open on Sunday, in order to retain their business upon large housing estates, then surely it is becoming a matter in regard to which they ought at least to have the same protection in regard to Sunday observance as is accorded in the Bill to England and Wales.
So far as I can see, the fact is that the old laws of the 17th century with regard to Sunday observance in Scotland have fallen into desuetude. Apparently there has been no case brought upon the old basis of Scottish law since Brown's case in 1931 and with the tendency of people at large to drop away from as much church observance as used to be the case (I think that is fairly general in most parts of the country) one can no longer rely upon the superior observance of the

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Sabbath day in Scotland as being sufficient protection in regard to all the other things that arise out of Sunday observance in business and trade. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord who is answering in this House for Scotland will have further thought about this matter. I have also had representations from the Lord's Day Observance Society with regard to the Sunday position, and I myself—I say this because it may support my case to the noble Lord, who has already said that there has been a deputation—have received a deputation from both the trade unions and the Co-operative Movement, to see whether some change could be made, so that at least the protection against unfair competition in ordinary business, such as groceries, by Sunday trading in Scotland should be dealt with in the same manner as it is in England and Wales. I am quite sure that any outstanding elder of the kirk would not wish to see the standards in this matter lower in Scotland than in England and Wales.
LORD SALTOUN: This question has resolved itself into one of Sunday observance. All I want to say is that it is possible to turn the screw too hard. My experience in Scotland is that where, in a parish, the minister goes round and meets his congregation, and is well known and welcome to them, they fill his church on Sunday. On the other hand, where he takes the line, which is rather frequently in modern times, that it is not the duty of the minister to visit his congregation and become known to them, they leave his church empty. I know of one case where the ministers were very anxious to suppress Sunday golf. They succeeded in getting the club-house closed to people. The result is that when you go to church in that locality you find everybody playing golf on Sunday. They do not go to the club-house, but they play golf just the same. That reinforces my point that it is possible to turn the screw too hard.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I thank the noble Viscount opposite most sincerely for the contribution he has made to the debate. We have our differences, it seems, as to whether or not there is a growth of Sunday trading. The figures I have given to the Committee seem to show quite clearly that there has been a decrease in the amount of Sunday trading
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that goes on, certainly as between 1933 and 1956. But I did say to your Lordships that it may well be that there has been an increase since 1946. That, to my mind, would be quite a natural thing to happen since restrictions were removed. The noble Viscount then turned to the case of the Churches. What I said to your Lordships is perfectly true—that we have had no representations from the Church. In a case such as this we should, naturally, expect to receive representations from, among others, the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. So far, we have had no such representations.
Glasgow and Edinburgh are, of course, the two places most frequently mentioned in regard to Sunday trading—they are the places, not so much the country districts, from which the grievances, if I can call them such, come. But where there is a great deal of disquiet is throughout the rural areas of Scotland about the result of Sunday coach trips—not so much the opening of shops, as the desecration of the Sabbath, as the people in these quiet places say, that results front excursions by people from the more industrial areas on the Sabbath Day. I think we shall all agree that those who spend six days of the week in the towns and cities may perhaps be allowed a little relaxation on Sunday, if it is carried on without disturbing the quiet of other people.
I had no idea at all—I am grateful to the noble Viscount for telling me of it—of the opening of a co-operative shop on one of our housing estates. I am happy that he has undertaken to give me the name of the place where this has occurred.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I want to make it clear that they did so because they were forced to by reason of shops being already open there.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I understand that. The position is simply as I said in my closing remarks just now: that my right honourable friend and I are perfectly willing to examine any further evidence or views that may be expressed by either the Churches or any other body, but at the moment we do not feel that the case has been proved. What one has to be certain about, before imposing restrictions, is whether or not the position

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is going to be better as a result of putting on the restrictions. My whole feeling at the moment is that it is very doubtful whether there would be fewer shops open as a result of imposing these restrictions than are open to-day.
LORD MATHERS: The concluding words of the noble Lord cause me to say that one of the considerations that have been advanced by those to whom I have talked on this matter is this: would the desire to open more shops on Sunday be created by providing for the opening of shops as shown in Part II of this Bill? The definite conclusion of those who have examined the position is that, at the least, they are willing to take the risk, believing that it will not lead to an increase in the opening of shops, and that to have a code established in this matter is of great advantage. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, indicated that he felt that the case for the Amendment I am seeking to move had not been proven. I would retort that I do not think the case against the Amendment has been proven.
The noble Lord relied largely on statistics from Edinburgh and Glasgow, but the matter is one of much greater consequence in outlying places in the countryside. During the ten years on which we are looking back since it was decided to do nothing about Sunday opening of shops in Scotland, there has been a great increase in travelling, and in getting out and about in the country on Sundays. The noble Lord has shown his awareness of that by referring to the "wet" invasion of the countryside, with people tearing about in buses with loads of drink to be consumed on the journey—something that has become a real scandal and, as the noble Lord will know, there have been very strong protests from different places throughout Scotland, though not from the great cities, because people go out from the cities. That was a matter which I did not think it necessary to bring into consideration here, for that belongs more to the licensing laws than to a Shops Bill.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: Will the noble Lord allow me to interrupt him as I wish to get this clear in my mind? Is the noble Lord not connecting his recent remarks on these coach tours with the necessity for the opening of shops in rural districts? It seemed to me that that, at
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least, was a part of his argument, as I understood it. I may be quite wrong, but these coach parties, I understand, take food with them in hampers and also take their drink, to a large extent. Would the noble Lord he good enough to give me, later, names of places of which he can tell us where shops which used not to open in the past are now opening?
LORD MATHERS: I cannot give that information in detail but there is the fact that people are travelling from the cities to the countryside on Sundays, with opportunities available to them to spend money, and with time to spare. They are not drinking all the time—although that seems to be the main object of some of these bus tours. There are others, however, who, because of the influx of people into country places, naturally feel it desirable to reap benefit alone with the disadvantages by opening their shops and making goods available for purchase.
The complaint is made that no representations have been received from the Churches. I think I have demonstrated in this House that I am not a gambler, but I would be willing to say that the chances are very great that after the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in May of this year there will be something to report. I feel that some consideration should be given to the growing strength of opinion against Sunday opening. My noble friend Lord Alexander of Hillsborough quoted from observations made by the Lord's Day Observance Society. I have here a communication from that body which under the heading "Scotland" says:
"With the exception of a provision prohibiting barbers' shops from opening on Sundays, Scotland is not affected by the sections of the Bill which relate to Sunday shops opening. Thus many will be disappointed that nothing is being done to deal with the alarming increase of Sunday trading in that part of the Kingdom."
LORD STRATHCLYDE: The noble Lord will appreciate that that is where we differ. They speak of an "alarming increase," but where are the facts to show that? They do not appear to exist.
LORD MATHERS: The noble Lord is putting his case on a very narrow basis when he speaks of the position in Edinburgh and Glasgow. In any case, with the permission given in this Bill for opening, does it not still depend on the

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decision of the local authority to give permission for that opening? That is why I have said that in different parts of Scotland there are different views on this matter of Sunday opening and I am quite certain that in the Western Islands and Highlands of Scotland it will not make one, jot of difference, because the strict observance of the Sabbath is, and will continue to be, practised there, and I am glad of it.
The noble Lord also used an expression about meeting the legitimate needs of the people. The contention put to me is that many cases of Sunday opening are due to the action of shopkeepers in taking advantage of the opportunity presented by people with leisure. It is not that people cannot buy what they require during the week, but that when wandering about on a Sunday with nothing to do they take the opportunity of patronising a shop when they find it is open. It is quite true that many shops do far bigger trade on Sunday than they do on any week-day; but that is not to say that it is necessary for people to make their purchases on a Sunday. I sincerely hope that what we have heard from the Minister to-day is not to be the last word on this matter. I realise that this House is perhaps not properly representative of public feeling in a matter of this kind. I am not going to press this Amendment to a Division, as the noble Lord has given me an indication that the whole matter is still subject to examination and to proof. I think a great deal of proof can be brought beyond what I have given, and when this Bill gees to another place and the elected representatives of the people and of the different localities are there to deal with it, I feel that the case will be made much more strongly than I have ventured to make it to-day, with the limited information I have. I hope that it is not a question of any closed mind on the part of the Ministers in the Scottish Office, but that we shall see the possibility of an advance along the line which I have been pressing with regard to bringing Scotland within the terms of this Part of the Bill.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: May I just say this to the noble Lord? He spoke of the Ministers in the Scottish Office possibly having closed minds? May I remind him that I said definitely that we are prepared to examine with open minds any further evidence that may be sub-
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mitted or any further views that may be expressed?
LORD MATHERS: I hoped that I should be able to bring the noble Lord to his feet again. With that assurance from him, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 17 agreed to.
Clause 18:
Sunday closing of shops
18.—(1) Subject to the following provisions of this Act and to the provisions of any order relating to Sunday trading in London which is continued in force under this Part of this Act, every shop shall be closed on Sunday:
Provided that—

(a) a shop may, on Sunday, be open until seven o'clock in the evening, or such earlier time (not being earlier than six o'clock in the evening) as may be fixed by order of the local authority within whose area it is situate, for the sale of goods of any kind specified in the Third Schedule to this Act;

(b) a shop which is registered under section eleven of this Act may, on Sunday, be open at any time for the sale, for consumption elsewhere than in the shop, of articles of food or drink specified or described by regulations having effect by virtue of that section.

4.42 p.m.
LORD MILVERTON LORD MILVERTON moved to insert at the commencement of paragraph (a) of the proviso to subsection (1):
"subject to compliance by the occupier with such conditions as may be prescribed by regulations".
The noble Lord said: This Amendment to Clause 18 is analogous to the one I moved in relation to Clause 10. I will not weary your Lordships with the reasons for it, which are the same as given in relation to the earlier Amendment. It did not find pleasure in the eyes of the noble Viscount; nevertheless I propose to put in the main plea once more. This clause enables shops to remain open on Sundays for he sale until 7 p.m. or a time not earlier than 6 p.m. of the goods specified in the Third Schedule of the Bill. It is, of course, the case that the shops which sell these goods ordinarily sell a much wider range of Roods. The regulations which are at present in force under the Shops Act, 1950, provide that the occupier of a mixed shop has to display an appropriate notice and to refrain from exhibiting goods of a class not permitted to be sold. I understand that the present

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Bill has the effect of causing the existing regulations under the Shops Act to cease to operate. It is felt that as those regulations in these cases served a useful purpose, the Amendment here set out would permit the Secretary of State to make similar regulations in future. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 31, after ("(a)") insert the said words.—(Lord Milverton.)
LORD BURDEN: May I add one word in support of this Amendment? A similar point was under consideration a little earlier to-day. This Amendment would allow the Secretary of State, if he felt it to be desirable—perhaps after some experience of the working of this freedom, which the noble Viscount talked about—to issue regulations to deal with the position. After all, it is really a protection to the shopkeeper, even in the case which received such marked consideration in this Bill—that of the vendor of fish and chips, A fish and chips merchant's shop frequently contains goods other than fish and chips, some of which might be used very conveniently with a shillings' worth of fish and chips—say, for example, a shilling bottle of vingear. But the keeper of the fish and chips shop is prevented from selling the vinegar. He can sell fish and chips to a person who likes a lot of vinegar with his or her fish and chips, and that person will no doubt feel very aggrieved if he or she is unable to buy the bottle of vinegar. In such a case the poor, unfortunate shopkeeper will have to endure the wrath of the consumer buying the fish and chips or else do something which at present is against the law. In the circumstances, I think it would be far better to have a little freedom for the shopkeeper rather than to have an absolutely rigid position as provided for in this Bill.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: The idea that regulations provide for additional freedom, though superficially an attractive one, hardly seems to me to correspond with the realities of the situation. The purpose of this Amendment, it appears to the Government, is, as Lord Milverton has said, exactly analogous to that which we discussed on Clause 10. Now it would be most illogical if, having resisted exactly the same Amendment in relation to early closing, we were to accept it in
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relation to Sunday opening. I agree that the Amendments probably stand or fall together, for the reasons given before, and on this particular occasion, and with great humility. I suggest that they should fall together.
LORD MILVERTON: With an equal desire to that of the noble Viscount not to be illogical, I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.47 p.m.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved, in subsection (1) (b) to leave out all words after "open" down to the end of the paragraph, and to substitute:
"until one o'clock in the afternoon for the sale of food as defined in the following section."
The noble Lord said: May I discuss this Amendment with Amendment No. 42—though when we come to the later one I shall have something further to say upon it. These two Amendments deal with the matter which has caused the present law to fall into more ridicule than any other aspect of the Shops Act. Clauses 18 and 19 say, as the present Shops Act says, that one type of food may be sold on Sunday up to a particular hour and that another type of food may be sold up to a quite different hour. The Bill says here one kind of food may be sold up to 7 o'clock in the evening and another until 10 in the morning. It is really trying to create such cases as the famous action which came up in the courts, and which Sherlock Holmes would have called: "The case of the uncooked kipper "Your Lordships will remember that that was a case in which an inspector, who was just as hazy as anyone else about what the law might conceivably be, thought it his duty to bring a prosecution. The case, which rested on the fact that an uncooked kipper had been sold, reached the court. The inspector said that an uncooked kipper was not "edible food" within the meaning of the Act; that it was not a meal. The shop people, on the other hand, said it was a meal. The judge gave a most appropriate decision: he said that uncooked kipper was clearly inedible but that people ate it: therefore, it was a meal. That is the sort of thing which, in effect, this Bill is going to perpetuate. It is producing these absurd anomalies.
In these days, 10 a.m. is a quite unrealistic time at which to shut a shop on Sunday morning, because the habits of the people have changed. This Amendment deals with food sold for consumption outside the shop. It is unnecessary to sell the food as late as 7 p.m., remembering that holiday resorts are dealt with under a special clause. These two Amendments, therefore, provide that any type of food may be sold on a Sunday up to 1 p.m., and not some foodstuffs up to 10 a.m. and others up to 7 p.m. The present law is illogical and depends largely on what is considered to be perishable or not. There have been so many cases about this and so much ridicule, both inside and outside the courts, that. I urge: let us be sensible for once. I beg to move the first Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 38, leave out from "open" to end of line 41 and insert "until one o'clock in The afternoon for the sale of food as defined in the following section."—(Lord Derwent.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I was told that the effect of this Amendment would be to allow any shops in the country to open until 1 o'clock on any Sunday for the sale of practically any kind of food. If I understood my noble friend's speech aright, that indeed would be the effect of his Amendment. I do not know why 1 o'clock is more logical than any other time, nor why, once this kind of wide-ranging Amendment was allowed, we should stop short at food. My own belief is that, when we are dealing with Sunday closing or opening, we have to make an arbitrary line somewhere, unless we are to have absolute prohibition or absolute freedom. My reading of the present situation is that neither would meet with the approval of public opinion.
Sunday trading is not, I think, a matter upon which a Government should hold strong dogmatic opinions in either direction. There are strong religious views in one direction, and there are strongly held convictions that it is wrong for those who hold strong religious views to impose them on other people. I think that the present Amendment would meet with strong opposition from all Sabbatarians amongst us, and might cause the clause to founder in the discussions which we should have. Moreover, my information is that would be extremely unpopular with most of the food trades, particularly
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the grocers. My own attitude towards Sunday trading rather conforms with this general philosophy. Sunday is an organised day of rest, and unless there is some kind of organised prohibition in support of it, in present conditions in England, at any rate—I do not wish to prejudice the discussion which has just taken place concerning the Northern kingdom—the organised day of rest will very likely disappear. I think that the present Amendment goes too far and that is the view of my right honourable friend. Therefore, I resist the Amendment.
LORD DERWENT: With great respect, I do not think the noble Viscount has answered my questions. I will answer one of his. He says that my Amendment would allow shops to open on any Sunday, but as the Bill stands a local authority can issue an order prescribing that shops may open at any particular time or times. The law is always being broken at the present time, because some foods are sold until 7 p.m. and some only until 10 in the morning; and with the best will in the world there are always doubts about which category some foods come under. The noble Viscount, has not answered that point at all. I am not wedded to 1 o'clock or 12 o'clock; I am trying to get a general mean. If it is necessary to keep some shops open until 7 for the sale of some kinds of food, it would obviously be unfair to put in too early an hour: and if it is felt that some foods should not be sold after 10 o'clock, then it would be wrong to put in too late an hour. All I say is that it should be permissible to sell all foods during the same hours, so that there should be no doubt in the minds of the shopkeepers, the public and the inspectors, and, as we have seen from some of the judgments in the courts, in the minds of sonic judges, of what may or may not be sold. I should like the noble Viscount to reply to that point.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: It may be that I do not wholly understand it. I am not in the habit of avoiding points deliberately. As I understand it, foods which can be sold until 10 a.m. are set out in Clause 19. They are sold in shops registered under that clause, and include food other than raw meat or raw poultry. The foods which may be sold until 7 o'clock are contained in the Third Schedule, if a local authority order is

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made as provided by proviso (a) of Clause 18 (1) in relation to a shop registered under Clause 11. I should be the last to deny that in the regulations made under these clauses there might be individual cases of overlapping which would give rise to difficulty, but I do not see that we can prevent that.
My noble friend's proposal has the advantage, provided the order is made by a local authority, of allowing any shop to open until 1 o'clock on every Sunday for the sale of practically any kind of food, and there is no difficulty about that, except that it annoys the people who sell and the Sabbatarians. In an Amendment of this kind, I should have thought it was an even greater disadvantage not to have public opinion behind you than to be compelled to make a number of nice distinctions. I do not know how I can deal with my noble friend's questions except by drawing attention to the provisions of the Bill. Of course, it would be possible to invent or construct, or even record, cases which, under regulations, might give rise to difficulty; but having regard to the state of public opinion on the matter, I do not know if we could do any better than we have done.
LORD DERWENT: I do not understand why my noble friend should talk about Sabbatarians. We are now dealing largely with shops that stay open until 10 a.m. My suggestion is that they should stay open till 1 p.m. I do not see how the Sabbatarians come into it.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I do not quite understand, and it may be that my noble friend and I are at cross-purposes here. As I understand it, he is moving the Amendment which stands in his name at page 12, line 38, and he proposes to insert the words,
"until one o'clock in the afternoon for the sale of food as defined in the following section."
—that is, Clause 19. I am told that the effect would be to allow any shop throughout the whole country to open until 1 p.m. on every Sunday, if the order so specified, for the sale of practically any kind of food. That would be a far-ranging exception. My information is that it would not be acceptable to those who are described as Sabbatarians. I may be wrongly advised about that, but
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it is not for me to explain the point of view of my advisers, but to inform the Committee of what is their point of view, according to the information in my possession. My information is that they would oppose this Amendment.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I have listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, who always speaks so persuasively that I have to take care that he does not carry me with him. However, I have been able to escape on this occasion, and he does not carry me with him in regard to this Amendment. The point made by the noble and learned Viscount. Lord Hailsham, is quite true: that if the Amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, has moved is accepted, certainly some of the Sabbatarians would be strongly opposed. For example, if you take the views expressed not only to myself, but no doubt to many noble Lords, by the Lord's Day Observance Society, you can see at once that they think we are already going much too far in the direction of relaxation of previous conditions. I think it is fairly safe to say that the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, is right in saying that the Sabbatarians would be upset.
However, I go further and say that I have satisfied myself by consultation that you would very much upset the trade union attitude on this matter. It is bad enough, from their point of view, that thousands of employees whom they organise, and for whom they seek to get better conditions generally in the working week, are already, in their particular firms, the subject of competition from people who get business on the Lord's day. To extend that exemption to the sale of any class of food up to 1 p.m. on Sundays would create a further serious grievance to the trade unions. While I can understand the argument of the noble Lord about the anomalies that arise in such cases as that of the famous raw kippers, I think he had better leave it where it is, otherwise he will be aggravating the position both with regard to the Sabbatarians and certainly with regard to the trade union attitude.
LORD DERWENT: Could the noble Viscount tell me about the trade union attitude? These are shops which are already going to be opened, are they not?
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: They open up to 10 a.m. at the moment. That certainly restricts the amount of food that is likely to be sold in competition with others who are working to get a five-day week. I have here a note from these people saying that, in the circumstances, they think the Amendment should be strongly opposed. So I do not speak entirely without a brief in this matter.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: It only goes to show what a hornets' nest may arise from the most innocent observations. However, I must still maintain my attitude of keeping to the Bill, as drafted.
LORD DERWENT: I will not press this Amendment now, but I should like my noble and learned friend to try to deal with my point that, when a shop is opened, it should not be so difficult to know what you can or cannot sell, and perhaps come to some compromise over hours. I would ask him to look at the point again. That is really what I am getting at as regards Amendment No. 40. However, in view of what has been said by my noble and learned friend and by the noble Viscount opposite. I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 18 agreed to.
Clause 19:
Exception for sale of food on Sundays at registered food shops
19.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in the last foregoing section, a shop which is registered under this section may be open on Sunday until ten o'clock in the morning for the sale of food (other than raw meat or raw poultry).
LORD DERWENT: This is the second Amendment about which I have just been speaking. I will say little about it, and I will ask your Lordships to give your opinion upon it, by voice, if possible, otherwise I shall press it. In spite of what the noble Viscount opposite has said, I still believe that, modern habits being what they are, 10 a.m. is an absurdly early hour at which to close a shop on Sunday. In many cases, people are not out of bed at that hour, and people forget that they have not bought things the night before. I suggest that 10 a.m. is much too early to close a shop, if it is considered necessary for it to be open at all. I suggest here until "one o'clock in the
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afternoon", but that hour may be too late. However, I am sure that 10 a.m. is too early. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 8, leave out ("ten o'clock in the morning") and insert the said words.—(Lord Derwelt)
LORD McCORQUODALE OF NEWTON: We have been invited by the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, to express an opinion, and I would venture to express the completely lay opinion that I p.m. is too late, although 10 a.m. is too early, so far as towns are concerned. To close a shop by 10 a.m. means an unduly early start, and an employee has to get there at an early hour in the morning to open the shop in order to be able to close it by 10 a.m. Further, it does not really suit the convenience of the public, for whom we are supposed to think occasionally, if we say that they should get out of bed and finish reading the News of the World, or whatever it is, on a Sunday morning and rush round to the shop to get the necessary articles of food which they may have forgotten to get, or could not get, the day before. I should have thought that 11 a.m. would be a suitable hour.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Again, I do not want to adopt any kind of dogmatic attitude about this matter. The whole object of Sunday closing is to have a day of rest, anti that must apply largely to the employees in the shop. When you have an organised day of rest, I take it that, whereas in the rest of the week the overriding consideration must be the convenience of the public, you have presumably allowed your consideration to be the freedom from work of those whose rest is protected. I have not any strong views as between 10 a.m. and 11 a.m., and therefore what I will do is to report to my right honourable friend what my noble friend below the gangway has said. As regards 1 p.m., I am hound to say to my noble friend Lord Derwent that the view of try right honourable friend—and, indeed, my own view—is that, given the premises upon which the philosophy of Sunday trading exists, 1 p.m. is a great deal too late. The object of this particular narrow exception in Clause 19 is that it is simply intended, like Section 48 of the 1950 Act, to allow the continuance of the old practice in some parts of the country of a few food shops staying open

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for an hour or two early on Sunday morning. It is not intended to open the field to large-scale Sunday trading; indeed, this provision is limited largely to cases where the local authority make an order under Clause 19 (7). My own feeling is that I prefer the clause as it is. However, I will certainly see that what Lord McCorquodale of Newton has said reaches my right honourable friend. He will consider the possibility of altering the particular hour, but not, I think, as my noble friend Lord Derwent would desire.
LORD SILKIN: Before the noble Lord withdraws his Amendment, as I imagine he will, I should like to give him some aid and comfort on this matter, so that when the noble Viscount goes to the Minister he might say that there was support from both sides of the House. I myself am not enamoured of opening on Sundays at all, and I could well understand it if the Bill provided that there should be no Sunday opening. But to open on Sundays until 10 o'clock in the morning does strike me as being somewhat farcical. I quite agree with the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, that many people, tired out as the result of their labours on the six days of the week, do not even get up until 10 o'clock on a Sunday. It is giving them no benefit at all that a shop should have been open but is closed at 10 a.m. I should have thought that, if this concession was to be given at all—and, of course, nobody is obliged to open—12 o'clock would be a much more reasonable time to close. I hope the noble Viscount will bear that in mind when he makes representations to the Minister.
LORD DERWENT: I did say that I was not wedded to 1 o'clock, and I put down that time in order to tie up with my previous Amendment. Because wanted to get them all open and shut at the same hour. I quite agree with my noble friend Lord McCorquodale of Newton that 1 o'clock is too late. I would be grateful if, before the Report stage, the noble Viscount would let me know whether the Government are going to put down an Amendment for some hour later than 10 and earlier than 1, because if they are not, I will put one down on the next stage. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 19 agreed to.
Clause 20:
Power of local authority, in sea-fishing centres and holiday resorts, to extend certain Sunday opening hours and to permit Sunday opening for transactions specified in Fourth Schedule
20.—(1) A local authority whose area—

(a) includes a harbour used for the purposes of the sea-fishing industry, being a harbour whose use for those purposes is substantially greater during some seasons of the year than during others; or

(b) consists of, or includes, a place frequented (whether at all times or during certain seasons of the year) by tourists or holiday-makers;

may by order direct that, as respects shops situate within their area or such part thereof as may he specified in the order, being shops registered by the authority under the last foregoing section, subsection (1) of that section shall, as respects such Sundays as may be so specified, have effect with the substitution, for the reference to ten o'clock in the morning, of a reference to such hour later than ten o'clock in the morning but not later than eight o'clock in the evening as may he so specified.
5.13 p.m.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved, in subsection (1) to omit "but not later than eight o'clock in the evening." The noble Lord said: This is a matter the basis of which we discussed under Amendment No. 13. It concerns the powers of local authorities in holiday resorts. I will be very short indeed if my noble friend can indicate whether he is going to give the same undertaking as he gave on Amendment No. 13, which was that he and his right honourable friend are sympathetic to the Amendment, and that if the Amendment is moved at some later stage of the Bill, when they have also the opinion of another place, they will be even more sympathetic, if he feels about this Amendment as he did about Amendment No. 13, I need not say anything more. It is simply a question of a closing hour, which in holiday resorts we say should be a matter for the local authority to decide. Eastbourne and Blackpool do not want to close at the same time, any more than do their shopkeepers or their shop assistants. That was the basis of the previous argument, and is the basis of this argument. I will say no more if my noble friend will give me some indication whether he is going to adopt the same attitude to this Amendment as to the earlier one. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 25, leave out from ("morning") to ("as") in line 35.—(Lord Derwent.)
LORD BURDEN: The Amendments on the Order Paper in the names of my noble friends Lord Milverton and Lord Lucas of Chilworth have something of the same intention as that moved by the noble Lord, Lord Derwent. I would plead for the local authority to be given freedom to consider the circumstances in the light of the problems which they have in their seaside resorts. It is all very well to say that shops must close at 7 or 8 o'clock, or thereabouts. Take Blackpool, for example. The public-houses will be open, the fun fairs will be going full blast, and yet one cannot buy even an ice-cream after 7 or 8 o'clock, as the case may be. As the Fourth Schedule is related to this particular clause, may I again ask why, in paragraph 7 of that Schedule, fish and chips receive such special mention? Why is a person in Blackpool allowed to buy fish and chips but precluded from buying a dozen oysters—it would be illegal—not to mention whelks, or things of that kind? To reduce the matter to an absurdity, he can buy fish and chips but he cannot buy an orange or an apple. May I ask the noble and learned, Viscount, looking at this question of greater freedom for the local authority to deal with their own circumstances, to look again at the Fourth Schedule and to say why, if he is in favour of freedom, it will be legal for the free men and women of England to eat only those things that are set forth in the Schedule, the other things that are not specified being denied to them?
LORD MILVERTON: There is little that I can add. The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, gave a favourable reception to the Amendment in Clause 4, and as the arguments in this one are almost precisely similar I do not wish to push at an open door. I hope that he will give the same favourable consideration to this Amendment. There is a vital principle involved, because once the principle of the need for special arrangements in holiday resorts has been accepted, local authorities should surely be left to judge the extent of those needs and to make orders accordingly. I do not wish to detain your Lordships any longer with arguments which have already been accepted.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My attachment to this Amendment is precisely the same as to the Amendment in
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Clause 4, which the noble Viscount accepted in principle. I could say only precisely the same as the noble Lord who has just spoken, so I will refrain from doing so and hope that the noble Viscount will give the Amendment his favourable consideration.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am not sure that I can answer all these questions, but in principle I hope to satisfy all noble Lords who have spoken by saying that our attitude towards this Amendment is precisely the same as that which we evinced toads the analogous Amendment. We recognise that, in addition to the trade unions—who, I think, were alone concerted with the earlier and analogous Amendment—we have to take into account in relation to this matter the opinions and objections of the Sunday observance movement. However, we are prepared to consider it. I am not sure that I quite understand the exact philosophy of the special treatment accorded to fish and chips. I imagine that it is a kind of pragmatic sanction. It seems more likely that there will be more demand for fish and chips than for oysters and champagne. I do not suppose there is anything deeper in it than that.
Of course the noble Lord will not have forgotten that food shops registered under Clause 11 and the Third Schedule may be allowed by the local authority to open at any time, and a similar power is given under Clause 18. It may be that, if I am right in try rather hasty judgment of the matter, the reason why a local option for fish and chips is given at seaside resorts is because it is thought that the more general provision, which applies not only to seaside resorts but to other places at the same time, if there is a local authority option under proviso (b) of Clause 18 (1), might be an adequate protection for them, whereas without this clause various commodities are covered by the First Schedule, unless I am mistaken, and therefore can be sold only up to, I think it is, 2 p.m. But it is a point on which I should like to consider further, in case I have made an error in my construction of this Statute. With that, I hope the noble Lord will be satisfied.
LORD DERWENT: I thank the noble and learned Viscount for his sympathy. Before I ask leave to withdraw the

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Amendment, may I fortify his sympathy by asking him if he will remember that I have been advised by those who have had considerable experience In trying to enforce the present Shops Act that, if certain holiday resorts had to close at eight o'clock, as is now down in the clause, the clause would in fact be unenforceable because the large majority who wished to stay open would do so? It sounds a terrible thing to say but I said earlier in this Committee stage that the inspectors have found that, where either the public or the shopkeepers are as a whole—not individually but as a whole—against any particular regulation, that regulation in fact becomes unenforceable. Therefore, may I just repeat that to the noble Viscount to reinforce his sympathy. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 20 agreed to.
Clauses 21 to 27 agreed to.
Clause 28:
Special provisions with respect to carrying on of trade, otherwise than in shops, by persons of the Jewish religion, others who observe the Jewish Sabbath and persons of the Muslim faith
(6) A local authority may refuse to register a person's name under this section if the registration thereunder of the name of that person (whether by that or any other local authority) has previously been revoked or cancelled, and shall, in any case where they do so refuse, forthwith give to the applicant for registration written notice of their decision in the matter and if the applicant is aggrieved by the decision of the authority he may, within three weeks from the giving of notice of the authority's decision, appeal to a magistrates' court.
5.23 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved, in subsection (6), after "cancelled" to insert:
"or if the registration under the two immediately preceding sections of this Act of a shop (whether situate within or outside the area of the authority) has previously been revoked or cancelled at a time when its occupier was the applicant or a partnership or company any of whose partners or directors was the applicant or (where the applicant is a partnership or company) a partner or director thereof,"
The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to put right what I think is an anomaly in the Bill as it is now drafted. I hope I shall have the sympathy of the noble Viscount opposite in the attempt I have in mind, even if he
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says that I am not setting about what I want to do in the right way, which may be the case.
Clauses 26, 27 and 28 deal with the registration of persons of the Jewish or Muslim faith who wish to have a retail business either in shops or on other premises. In Clauses 26 and 27, local authorities are authorised to refuse an application for registration if a previous registration had been cancelled presumably owing to some irregularity on the part of the applicant. But the anomaly arises that, as the Bill stands, this power given to the enforcing authority applies only in the case of shops, if the applicant is running a shop, then the local authority can refuse his application for registration if his previous registration has been cancelled; but if the applicant is asking for permission to sell the same goods from a stall, instead of in a shop, then the local authority have no power to refuse the application. The object of this Amendment is to put stalls in the same category as shops. As I say, I am not certain about the wording of the Amendment. I studied it carefully, but I confess that I am not happy about it. The noble and learned Viscount and I have the same object in mind. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 37, after ("cancelled") insert the said words.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I feel that I am getting into very deep drafting water with this Amendment. I will endeavour to explain why I am rather inclined to resist it. I am in such deep water about it that I am quite open to conviction that I am wrong. I might preface my remarks by reminding the noble Earl that under Part III of the Bill a local authority can refuse to register Jewish or Muslim shopkeepers if the registration of a shop with which they have been concerned has previously been revoked or cancelled: and they can refuse to register a Jew or a Muslim who trades from a van or barrow if his registration has previously been revoked or cancelled. The noble Earl's Amendment would enable the local authority to refuse to register a van trader or barrow boy if he be concerned with a shop, the registration of which has been revoked or can. Celled It has, therefore, the laudable

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intention of stopping what is called the gap in the Bill.
The trouble is that, if you start making permutations, there is almost no limit to where you can go. For example, this Amendment would still leave it open for a Jewish barrow boy whose registration had been revoked or cancelled to apply to have a shop registered. Furthermore, it is possible that that is more likely than that the shopkeeper would turn barrow boy. Moreover, a person who falsely pretended to be a Jew at one time might later pretend to be a Muslim. The result is that, if you start stopping up all these holes by separate Amendments, it is a little difficult to know how far you are going in detailed draftsmanship.
Those who have been responsible for drafting the Bill are inclined to think that the provisions of subsection (4) of Clause 28 are really designed to sweep up various permutations and combinations which are not provided for by express provision. That is to say, in each case, in the case of the Jew and in the case of the Muslim, a suitable religious tribunal can be invoked if there is good reason to suppose that the application is made falsely and improperly. My own feeling is that probably the draftsmen are right about this. We could obviously start putting in Amendments of the kind that the noble Earl has very reasonably suggested but, if we did, we should certainly have to put in others. As at present advised, my inclination is to think that the tribunal solution ultimately becomes the best because it is beyond the wit of man to anticipate in every instance the degree of obloquy which may inspire people who fraudulently pretend to be Jewish or Muslim barrow boys.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I appreciate the complexities of the situation. I must admit that I had not myself studied subsection (4) of this clause as a possible alternative to my Amendment. I should like the opportunity of doing so, and I am grateful to the noble Viscount for drawing my attention to it, although I am sure that he will appreciate that if I am not satisfied I shall probably return to the charge at the next stage of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 28 agreed to.
Clause 29:
Special provisions with respect to Kosher butchers and poulterers
29.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in Part II of this Act, a person of the Jewish religion who, within the area of a local authority, carries on the business of a retail dealer in Kosher meat may, on Sunday, carry on that business and (if he occupies for the purposes of that business a shop situate in that area) keep it open for those purposes, on condition that he complies with the following provisions, that is to say:—
(d) if he occupies for the purposes of that business a shop situate within their area, he shall keep displayed in the shop in the prescribed manner a notice in the prescribed form that it is open on Sunday for the purposes of retail dealing in Kosher meat, but is not open on Saturday.
5.31 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved, in subsection (1) to omit paragraph (d). The noble Earl said: This may appear a rather surprising Amendment, because it is not often that enforcing authorities wish to relieve shopkeepers of an obligation which is, as a general rule, of considerable assistance to them. But in this case the view is taken that it is an unnecessary imposition on Kosher retailers to have to put up in their shop notices that they are open on Sundays and closed on Saturdays It is presumed that they will, in fact, be open on Sundays and closed on Saturdays, and that both the public and the local authorities know that that is the case. It is therefore unnecessary to put them to the trouble to display a notice to inform people in the area that they are open on the Sunday and closed on the Saturday. I am sure the noble Viscount will welcome any reasonable opportunity of removing restrictions; in this case, at any rate, we are entirely in sympathy with his ideological views. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, tire I, leave out paragraph (d).—(The Earl of Listowel.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I feel that this is an Amendment which can safely be accepted without more ado. It has the supreme merit of leaving out something instead of putting something in, and if only for that reason it commends itself to the draftsman's eye.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount. I appreciate particularly the hint

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that was given about the possibility of leaving out portions of this Bill; I shall not forget that.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 30 to 36 agreed to.
Clause 37:
Weekly half-holidays
37.—(1) Subject to the provisions of the following subsection and to the following provisions of this Part of this Act relating to special exceptions, the occupier of a shop shall allow in each week to every shop assistant employed to work about the business of that shop a half-holiday on a business day which shall be notified in the prescribed form and manner.
(2) The occupier of a shop may, in the case of a shop assistant employed to work about the business of that shop dispense with compliance with the foregoing subsection as respects not more than two of the three weeks of Christmastide, but—
(a)where the occupier of a shop in the case of a shop assistant employed to work about the business of that shop dispenses with compliance with that subsection as respects two of the three weeks of Christmastide the occupier shall allow that assistant a whole holiday on each of two of the Christmas and new year holidays and shall also allow him—

(i) during one of the four weeks next following the first week as respects which compliance with that subsection was dispensed with in his case a half-holiday on a business day; and

(ii) during one of the four weeks next following the second week as respects which compliance with that subsection was so dispensed with a further half-holiday on a business day;

and a half-holiday which a shop assistant is, by virtue of this subsection, entitled to be allowed in any period shall be in addition to the half-holidays which he is, by virtue of subsection (1) of this section, entitled to be allowed in that period.
LORD COLERAINE LORD COLERAINE moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "subsection" and insert "subsections." The noble Lord said: Although this Amendment is suggested at this point it is in fact consequential upon Amendment No. 66, in as much as if Amendment No. 66 were not accepted there would be no point in this Amendment. With the permission of the Committee, therefore, in moving Amendment No. 60 I will direct my argument to the later Amendment. I am glad to be able to say that my argument will be neither laboured nor prolonged.
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On Clause 7 I moved an Amendment to the effect that where a shop was closed on Good Friday it should not be necessary to have an early closing day during that week. My noble friend was good enough to accept that Amendment, and I was grateful to him. In moving it, however, I indicated that when we came to Clause 37, I proposed to move another Amendment to ensure that though the early closing day was lost in the week of Good Friday, the position of the shop assistants would not be prejudiced. That is the purpose of Amendment No. 66. As I say, Amendment No. 60, which I am now moving, is in a sense consequential upon that. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 43, leave out ("subsection") and insert ("subsections").—(Lord Coleraine.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My brief had stated that the dislike of local authorities for postponed half-holidays would probably be voiced in the debate on these Amendments. Well, it has not been. In the circumstances, and faced with unexpected silence on the part of the local authorities, I think my best course is to agree to consider this Amendment. There is, I think, a good deal to be said for it, especially as it is to some extent on the same lines as an Amendment which I accepted last time. The effect of the Amendment is partly that the assistant's half-holiday can be postponed from Holy Week to one of the three succeeding weeks. This would correspond roughly with subsection (2) of the same clause, and therefore, in principle, the Amendment would seem to be acceptable. But it goes further than this, by allowing a compensatory half-holiday to be given in the three preceding weeks. It is on this particular aspect of the matter that—I was going to say "those instructing me", but that would not be the correct phrase in your Lordships' House—those on whose advice I have to rely in such matters have the greatest degree of doubt. Therefore, with my noble friend's permission and with that degree of explanation, I will say that this Amendment will be considered.
LORD COLERAINE: I am grateful to my noble friend for the consideration he has promised to give the Amendment. I greatly hope that he will be able to remove the doubts of his advisers on the particular point that he mentioned, but in

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the light of what he says I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "in the prescribed form and manner" and insert:
"by a notice in the prescribed form specifying the day of and time of commencement of the half holiday of each assistant and it shall be the duty of the occupier of the shop to keep such notice displayed in the prescribed manner from the Saturday immediately preceding the week in which such half holiday is to be given until the e id of such week."
The noble Earl said: This Amendment is exactly the reverse of the Amendment I moved just now. It is to ensure that shop assistants get their half-holiday, by requiring shopkeepers to put notices in their shops to show the dates and the times when the assistants are entitled to their half-holiday, and to keep those notices there for a period of a week. It is designed to try to write into the Bill the particular form and manner in which notification shall be given of the shop assistants' half-holiday, I hope that the Amendment may be acceptable, because I am assured that it will make the duty of enforcement so much easier and that it would be extremely difficult if it had to be done in the manner suggested in the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 2, leave out from ("notified") to end of line and insert the said new words.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: The intention of those framing the Bill is to leave this sort of detail to regulations. On the whole, I would put forward the view that it would simplify the Bill if this were done. The shopkeeper already has to put up a notice under Clause 37 (1), and if he does not do so he will, under Clause 48 (1), be committing an offence. The actual form is to be prescribed by the regulations, and on the whole we think that is the best way of dealing with it rather than putting positive words into the Bill.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am not at all sure that the noble Viscount may not be right about the method of dealing with this by regulation, rather than by specific provision within the Bill. I hope that when the noble and learned Viscount comes to redraft the regulation he will think of doing it in the way suggested in
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this Amendment, because that is evidently what will be most helpful to the enforcing authorities. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.42 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved to add to subsection (1):
"Provided that this subsection shall not apply where agreement has been reached between persons or bodies substantially representative of employers and workpeople in any trade that shop assistants in that trade may be employed to work on any six days of the week."
The noble Lord said: This is a matter of some importance, because it is here that this Rill appears to me to cut across vital principles of industrial negotiation as between responsible bodies of employers and responsible representatives of labour. Although paragraph 11 of the Second Schedule exempts from this Bill
"The sale of parts of, or accessories to, or fuel or lubricants for, vessels, aircraft mechanically propelled vehicles, cycles, or agricultural machinery or equipment."
this clause in the Bill covers conditions of employment of shop assistant; and petrol filling stations, or the forecourt of promises from which petrol is sold, are technically retail shops, and men employed as petrol pump assistants are, again technically, according to this Bill, shop assistants. But they are not shop assistants; they come under their own wage provisions and conditions of employment, under the National Joint Industrial Council for the motor vehicle retailing and repairing trade.
If the Committee will forgive a personal reference, may I say that it was in 1941, when I happened to be President of the employers' organisation, that I, under the careful tuition of that great man, Ernest Bevin, when he was Minister of Labour, formed the National Joint Industrial Council and. brought wages and conditions of employment regulations into this trade for the first time in its history. I have in my hand the agreement that was negotiated. It covers both sides of a sheet of foolscape paper. The union side is impressive and remains the same to-day: the Amalgamated Engineering Union, the National Union of General and Municipal Workers, the Transport and General 'Workers' Union, the Electrical Trades Union and the National Union of Vehicle Builders. I suppose

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that that is the most impressive list there could be of trade unions in this country.
We early came to the conclusion that if this trade was to give a service to the public we should have to cover seven-day working—all petrol pump attendants come under this agreement. so we are not now dealing in any way with shop assistants—and under Clause 6 of this agreement, we have seven-day working provisions. Naturally, the employees work only six days and have one rest day, with compensating monetary payments for the hours they work and for the absence of a half day. To be frank with the Committee, I may say that if these men are not exempted from the provisions of the Bill, I believe it will mean the closing down of about half the petrol stations in this country, because this does not affect only the very large filling station on a main road which may have twenty employees; it covers the very small village petrol station, with perhaps two pumps, which is necessary to provide for the road transport of this country—for your Lordships, for example, who, when on pleasure bent (when you can get petrol to be on pleasure bent) motor in country areas during week-ends.
This agreement has worked to the satisfaction of everybody since 1941. My wording may not be acceptable to the noble and learned Viscount, but I sincerely trust that the principle is. In vital service trades, where conditions of labour and wages paid are freely negotiated between responsible associations of employers and responsible unions of employees, a Bill like this should not cut across such agreements. I am not wedded to the wording of my Amendment the noble and learned Viscount may have objections to it, but it is the best that I could do, it may not be in the right place in the Bill, but it is a job to find the right place for anything in this Bill. As the noble and learned Viscount has just said, the easiest thing to do is to leave something out and then one does not have to find a place for it. I hope I have made my case for this Amendment and that the noble and learned Viscount will accept it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 2, at end insert-—
("Provided that this subsection shall not apply where agreement has been reached between persons or bodies substantially repre-
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sentative of employers and workpeople in any trade that shop assistants in that trade may be employed to work on any six days of the week.")—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I do not want to appear brutal about this Amendment, but I am sorry to say that I doubt whether there is any place for it in this Bill. It is a matter upon which it would greatly surprise me to know that the noble Lord who has moved it is in agreement with current thought in his Party or in the trade unions. The effect of this Amendment would be to remove from businesses to which the Amendment is designed to apply—it does not specify petrol filling stations although that was the example given—all provisions for the protection of shop assistants in relation to weekly half-holidays, on condition that a trade agreement with a particular trade union is in force. I am bound to tell the noble Lord that the attitude of trade unions in such matters, so far as Her Majesty's Government are aware, is quite the contrary.
This raises a question which might have been raised on some of these Benches: whether in the presence of a strong trade union movement it is really necessary to provide any statutory restrictions at all for shop assistants. Much that point of view was raised by two of my noble friends in the more general debate which we had on Clause 1. I am bound to say that at the moment that is not the view of Her Majesty's Government. Their view is that statutory restrictions are necessary in some cases, including the present, and that the mere presence of a trade union agreement covering a trade or part of it is not a sufficient protection. If Her Majesty's Government were told officially by the trade unions that they differed from us on this matter, it would, of course, lead us to reconsider our view, but we have not been so told. On the contrary, we understand that the trade unions are anxious to preserve the basic safeguards which assistants have so long enjoyed under existing legislation and which we have hitherto regarded as reasonable.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Might I interrupt the noble Viscount to ask him this question? How does he line up what he has just said with the fact that under my hand is the current agreement that has been agreed to by the

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unions the names of which I have read out? If that is not an expression of current thought, I do not know what is.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I must say that my experience of the unions is that they do not, as a rule, allow their agreements to be used as an argument against statutory protection for those whom they desire to represent. I can imagine a very strong Conservative saying that they ought to, but hardly such an ornament of the Labour Party as the noble Lord opposite. I must say, with respect, that I do not see how an Amendment of this kind could ever be enforced. How is a shops inspector to know in relation to any particular trade or branch of a trade whether a trade agreement is in force or not, and whether that trade agreement is in force in relation to "substantially representative" persons or bodies? I do not think they are registered centrally at all. I do not even know what the words mean.
While this Amendment has a certain superficial attraction on the basis of justice—I realise that employers who enter into agreements with trade unions are acting in an enlightened and responsible way—the more I look at it the more I am convinced that it is really no good and that we do right to resist it. As I say, if trade unions officially approach the Government and say that they do not want this statutory restriction any more and that they are satisfied with their own negotiating strength, then, obviously, a person like myself who has nothing but a professional background behind him would reconsider his position. At present, I think statutory restrictions have very great value over and above any trade union agreement there may be.
LORD BURDEN: I accept the reasoning of the noble Viscount. Broadly speaking, there is always an objection to contracting out from any statutory provision of this kind. Contracting out has been fought from Labour Benches in relation to a great many matters such as Workmen's Compensation. The point really is that these statutory provisions cover a union, or unions, of shop assistants, as we broadly understand the term. They naturally look after their own people and they are fairly well organised now, but one knows that there are large numbers of shop assistants, particularly in large stores, who, for one reason
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or another, are not organised into any trade union. Therefore the unions concerned are very keen on these statutory provisions. But we must not try to clamp all trades into one general provision. If road transport undertakings, of necessity, require fuel for their work, and there is an agreement between these bodies, I think it would be perfectly right and fair for these bodies to make representations to Her Majesty's Government. It ought then to be possible to find a way to meet their particular cases as against a general provision which undoubtedly is necessary for shop assistants, particularly those not at the moment protected by an organised trade union.
LORD SILKIN: I have no particular ideological view on this question at all, but it seems to me that my noble friend has made a case which ought to be met. It may be that his Amendment is too wide, because it would apply to all undertakings where there was an agreement between employers and the unions, and that would displace the statutory protection. It would, in fact, amount to contracting out. As the debate has gone on, it seems to me that there is some doubt whether the undertaking which my noble friend is talking about is a shop at all. It is certainly not a shop in the generally accepted and generally understood sense. It seems to me that there ought to be some special provision in this connection.
While I fully appreciate what the noble Viscount has said—and I particularly appreciate the tenderness which he feels about the susceptibilities of trade unions and his desire to preserve their status—I think there is a case here that needs consideration. Whether it should be met by way of special protection for garages serving petrol, whether it should be met in the form in which my noble friend has put down his Amendment, limiting it in that way, I should not like to say. But I do feel that the noble Viscount has dismissed this rather cavalierly. To leave it to the trade unions to make an approach is a little difficult. I feel it would be as well if he looked further into this matter from the point of view of the protection of the general public. If my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth is right, half the garages in the country would have to close down for the sale of petrol at certain times of the week. That would be a very serious effect of this Bill.

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If that can be avoided without damage to the principles of the Bill, it certainly should be avoided.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am sorry that I should have been accused of being, or even be thought to be, cavalier in any way. My own impression was that I was going almost out of my way to be conciliatory, because it would have been easy for me to say about this matter what I think can be stated in two blunt, though not very cavalier, sentences. First, I can see absolutely no reason at all why an assistant at a garage undertaking does not need a half-holiday every week just as much as an ordinary shop assistant. Secondly, I do not believe that, if he got one, half the garages in the country would close down. I cannot say fairer than that. That is where I stand on the matter.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Perhaps, in my desire to be brief, I did not state the case as fully as I should have done. Both Lord Silkin and Lord Burden were quite right. The fault is this. A petrol filling station, or any petrol sale from a garage, turns the establishment into a retail shop. It should not do so, because wages and conditions of all employees in a garage are covered by the National Joint Industrial Council Agreement. The law says that a showroom is a retail shop; a petrol forecourt is a retail shop. When we were debating my previous Amendment about the open space in a garage which has two cars on exhibition upon it, the question was asked: how is it to be said that that few square feet shall be called a retail shop for the purpose of early closing? The position is precisely the same. If a mechanic serves petrol, he is not covered by this agreement at all. Where do you draw the line? If it is a filling station on a main road, and does nothing else but sell petrol, the position is not difficult, But 70 or 80 per cent. of the garages in the country are not built that way. The mechanic working on the engine of your motor car one minute is paid a mechanic's rate of pay, and whether he gets half-holidays or not is neither here nor there, because he gets time-and-a-half for working and no half-holidays are stipulated in a mechanic's agreement. At what time does he become a petrol attendant? The fault lies in saying that the petrol selling
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activities of a garage make the petrol-pump part of the premises a retail shop, and that the man who pushes the switch is a shop assistant.
I prefaced my remarks by saying that I am not tied to the wording, and I put down this Amendment to have the point clarified. I would say that the exemption provided in the Second Schedule alters the character of petrol selling as a retail activity. The selling of petrol and lubricants for all road vehicles is there exempted. One can sell petrol twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, and be immune. When we try to fix conditions of employment and hours of work, then we come up against the difficulty that this Bill cuts across existing agreements. There exists for all repair trade workers a properly drawn up agreement with the appropriate unions. This point came out well in the Gowers Report, and I expect the noble Viscount will remember what was said. We should not attempt to control the hours and conditions of wages of these people by the Shops Bill. The time is past when we can do that. They should all be fixed under the Wages Council Act.
The noble Viscount has said that he has only a professional background for his knowledge of this matter. I assure him that I have a practical background. Five years of wage negotiations did not leave me as ignorant as when I started. I know of no five unions who drive a harder or better bargain on behalf of their members, and of the trade whose labour side they control, than the Amalgamated Engineering Union, the Electrical Trades Union, the Transport and General Workers' Union, the Union of General and Municipal Workers, and the Amalgamated Society of Woodworkers. They negotiated the agreement, which I have here, which has worked satisfactorily since 1941. If the noble Viscount will peruse this agreement, he will see that both the emoluments and the hours worked are satisfactory. Those who work under this agreement would not give it up for anything. Like my noble friend Lord Silkin, I think that this point should be looked into. I am not going to accuse the noble Viscount of dismissing it lightly; I accept the responsibility of not filling in the blanks as I should have done, but I thought that he was as well acquainted with this as I am. I should like the noble

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Viscount to consult the trade unions, because I think they have not been properly consulted.
The Bill cuts across certain trades, and I think it is right that we should take motor vehicle repair shops out of the Bill and rely on this agreement. I assure the noble Viscount that it covers every petrol filling station and repair shop in the country. My noble friend and Leader showed on a previous Amendment that a large number of shop assistants have no union protection, but every employee in the motor vehicle repair trade, including all Government repair shops is covered by this agreement; it applies 100 per cent. I should have thought that any agreement negotiated for that trade by these five unions—I have never known the A.E.U. to be backward in talking about the interests of their members—would be regarded by the Government as impressive.
Then the noble Viscount tells me that I am out of touch with current trade union thought. Is he levelling the same accusation against the A.E.U., the T. and G.W.U., the M. and G.W.U., the E.T.U. and the Woodworkers? Are they out of touch with trade union thought? Their national joint industrial council meets every three months or so, and surely if they were dissatisfied with this agreement would not have lasted from 1941 until to-day. Their wages have altered, but the principle in the agreement has not. I beg the noble Viscount not to dismiss this point lightly and to consider it in relation to paragraph 11 of the Second Schedule, which lists:
"The sale of parts of, or accessories to, or fuel or lubricants for vessels, aircraft, mechanically propelled vehicles, cycles, or agricultural machinery or equipment."
I can put him in touch with the national joint industrial council of the motor retail and repair trade to see whether they would not like petrol filling stations and repair shops taken out. Because this clause will be enforceable only on a filling station that is one entity; if it has a repair station attached to it that is only the size of this Table the Bill will be useless, because the station will employ only one mechanic and he cannot be touched under this clause as he is not a shop assistant. I beg the noble Viscount to discuss this question with his advisers and I will give him every help I can in the
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matter. The Shops Act has never operated in the motor retail trade before, neither in the sale of petrol nor in the sale of vehicles, but this agreement has always operated, for the reason I gave your Lordships on a previous Amendment.
As I said, I do not want to press this Amendment, because I think the wording is suitable only as a basis of argument, and I am not tied to it. But I would ask the noble and learned Viscount not to dismiss it lightly. However blunt he likes to be, I can be equally blunt on the other side. There has never been one complaint about this agreement since 1941, and / think that shows great merit. There has never beer any industrial dispute in this trade, and that says something for the good conditions, the hours and the payments. I am sure that if this Bill goes through as at present drafted, future conditions in the industry will not be so happy as conditions have been in the past.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: There are really two points raised by the noble Lord. The first point to which he is committed in the Amendment is that where there is a trade union agreement statutory restrictions need not apply—and I do not see why there should be any limitation of that kind if the principle is accepted at all. Then there is the separate point whether, and, if so, which, petrol pump attendants should be treated as shop assistants. The Bill provides that shop assistants should be given a weekly half holiday, but the Amendment of the noble Lord says not if there is a trade union agreement. And then he has quoted a great deal of detail. I must tell the noble Lord bluntly that the Trades Union Congress General Council have been fully consulted about the employment provisions of the Bill, including this one, and they fully support them; indeed, they want the Bill to go further, as we heard the other day. The Trades Union Congress General Council do not consider that agreements are any substitute for basic statutory safeguards. That is the only issue between the noble Lord and myself on this Amendment. I do not regard it as a matter of draftsmanship, but as a matter of principle.
It so happens that, although I normally find myself having to argue this case against members of my own Party, I like

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the opposite case just as little when it comes from a member of the Party opposite as when it comes from the more extreme members of my own Party. Social progress in this country has come from basic statutory safeguards. It is true that I am only a person with a professional background, and I am aware that the noble Lord has a deeper knowledge of the trade. But sometimes one's own background is misleading as well as of advantage, and I am certain that I act in the general tradition of social reform in this country if I resolutely refuse to substitute a valuable statutory safeguard in the interests of the employees simply because a trade union agreement has been made. I should personally think that, even if I were to yield the principle, the only result would be that it would be totally unenforceable and would lead to doubt and difficulty on both sides, since I cannot conceive that in any legal proceedings for failing to give an assistant a statutory weekly half-holiday it could be ascertained with any clarity whether a trade union agreement existed covering that particular shop assistant and that particular employer, and, if so, whether it was reached between bodies or persons substantially representative of the employers or workpeople in that particular trade, So much, therefore, for the general principle.
I now look at the other side of the matter. I think the noble Lord should have made it plain to the Committee that under the 1950 Act petrol filling station attendants are shop assistants—that is the present legal position—and at present they have to be given a weekly half-holiday. The effect of the Amendment would be to take away their weekly half-holiday. So far as I know, under the 1950 Act no garages have failed to carry on for this reason, and I cannot see why, simply because we propose to carry on the same provisions in this Bill, they should close down now. Therefore, although I hope I shall not be accused of being either intransigent or unreasonable in the handling of Amendments, I must stand firm on this one.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: Before my noble friend withdraws the Amendment, I think it would be proper for me to say a few words, because I approach this matter from a rather different trade angle from
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that of my noble friend. He quite rightly pointed out to me privately that he was not in any way wedded to the wording of the Amendment. With regard to the general question of principle in dealing with the matter of statutory protection of the social conditions desired by organised labour, I am bound to say that the statement made by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, is the right one. I am advised by the organised trade union side, covering shop assistants and distributive workers, that they cannot contemplate having the amendment to the law which would be the result if my noble friend's Amendment as at present worded were incorporated in the Bill. I want to make that quite clear.
On the other hand, it is obvious that, in speaking of industry generally, one often finds that there is a particular trade or practice which it is essential to carry on for the benefit of the general public in extraordinary hours and conditions. Then it is up to the trade unions concerned to organise the best possible working agreement they can through the joint industrial wages council. My submission to my noble friend is that it is no answer to the general case of pressing for steady progress in social reform and leisure for the worker to injure the general position under the Statute of a right to a half-holiday. Therefore I take the view on this particular issue which is taken by the noble and learned Viscount opposite, and I am sure my noble friend will understand why I do so.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I too, accept it 100 per cent. The noble and learned Viscount opposite was on such a good horse in putting forward his argument, a winner from the time it started, that he forgot to listen to my case. I do not blame him for that. I put down the Amendment only to raise the whole position. I have said that I am not tied to the wording of it, and as the argument has proceeded it appears now to me to be terribly bad. I agree with what the noble and learned Viscount and my noble Leader said. I have been a responsible industrialist and Chairman of a National Industrial Council, and I would not do one thing to impair the principle. But the folly is that these establishments should ever have been classified as retail shops. The people who work in them are mechanics and come

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under the engineering agreements of the country, and can never be shop assistants.
All I am going to do is to ask your Lordships' permission to withdraw this Amendment, and I will put down another Amendment on the Report stage which will keep intact the principle which both the noble Viscount and my noble Leader have enunciated and make it more specific. That is where my practice and the theory of the noble and learned Viscount clash; and, if I may say so with respect, my practice is better. He has said that the 1950 Act made a petrol filling station and a repair shop a retail shop and ensured that the assistants should have a half-day holiday a week. But they have never had it, because this agreement has been in force; and they would rather have this one because they are mechanics for most of the time. I do not know whether the noble Viscount would like to try to come to an agreement on this matter. Perhaps we might arrange some consultations with his advisers—because I will tell him this quite frankly: if this provision goes through as it stands, it will be honoured more in the breach than in the observance; and I am sure that that is not what he wants, and it is not what I want. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD MILVERTON: This is only an instance of my temerity in trying to clarify the drafting. Subsection (2) of this clause allows a shopkeeper riot to grant a half-holiday in two of the three weeks of Christmastide—the week within which Christmas Day falls, the week immediately before Christmas, and the week immediately after. If he does so, the assistant must he given a whole holiday on two days over the holiday period, as specified in Clause 63 (2). It seems to me that the clause, as worded, is far from clear. It might almost appear that four whole holidays are to be granted. The Amendment merely seeks to clarify the drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 11, after ("assistant") insert ("two whole holidays, namely").—(Lord Milverton.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am obliged to my noble friend for drawing this point to our attention. I am advised that the
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Amendment is unnecessary, and that the clause is not susceptible of any misunderstanding without it. I am bound to say that on the whole I agree with that advice. I think the best plan is to leave the clause as it is. I do not believe that the Amendment would do any harm, but nor do I believe that it would do any good.
LORD MILVERTON: In view of the noble Viscount's assurances, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.23 p.m.
LORD COLERAINE LORD COLERAINE moved, in sub section (2),(a), to leave out paragraphs (i) and (ii) and insert:
"two half holidays on business days between;he immediately preceding first day of December and the immediately succeeding thirty-first day of January."
The noble Lord said: The clause, as it stands, provides that where a shop is closed or Christmas Day and Boxing Day, and where there is no early closing in either those weeks, the shop assistant shall receive two half-holidays within the four weeks succeeding each of those holidays. The purpose of this Amendment is to provide that those two half-holidays should be given in the four weeks preceding Christmas or in the four weeks after Christmas, or, to be more accurate, between December I before Christmas and January 31 after Christmas. If my noble friend sees his way to accept this Amendment, I think he will agree that nobody would be prejudiced or inconvenienced. The shop assistant would not be inconvenienced, and the public would not be inconvenienced.
It does occur to me, however, since I heard my ruble friend's observations on an earlier Amendment that I moved about the position of local authorities, that there may be some objection to this Amendment from local authorities, on the grounds that it may be more difficult to enforce the clause over a period of two month s than it is over a period of one month. I do not believe there is a great deal of force in that argument. After all, there are only two ways in which the local authority can enforce the clause—by questioning the assistant, and by inspecting the records. It is difficult to believe that it would add greatly to the inspector's difficulty if he had to inspect records covering a period of two

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months, instead of one, or if he had to question the shop assistant on events occurring in two months, instead of one.
Be that as it may, and even if there is some marginal inconvenience to the local authority. I do not believe that it is anything like the inconvenience which might be caused to the shopkeeper. As my noble friend no doubt realises, the period after Christmas is one of the busiest periods in the whole year, because it comprises the annual stocktaking; and it might cause serious inconvenience, even serious difficulty, if the shopkeeper were obliged to release the whole of his staff for two extra half-days during the stocktaking period. I hope, therefore, that if my noble friend is disposed to reject my proposal, he will at least be able to give me the assurance that he will have this point considered, to see whether there is much force in the objections of the local authorities if, indeed, they do make objection to my Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 14, leave out paragraphs (i) and (ii) and insert the said new words.—(Lord Coleraine.)
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I think my noble friend has really said everything which can be said in favour of this Amendment and almost everything which can be said against it—that is, that the local authorities would find it difficult to enforce. My own judgment is that the balance of convenience is in favour of my noble friend rather than of the local authorities, but I am not at the moment authorised by my right honourable friend to make a concession in the matter. We will consider it further. The only qualification which I would make is that I am not quite sure how long the consideration would take. Ordinarily, when I make a concession, I like to be able to clear the situation up by Report stage, in order that the noble Lord, if he is not satisfied with the outcome, can have his remedy in putting down a new Amendment. In this case, I am not sure whether I shall be in a position to do as much, but I hope that I have said enough to show that at any rate I am sympathetic.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I quite appreciate the general aim of the noble Lord who moved
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the Amendment, and I am glad to know that further consideration is to be given to it. But I beg the noble Viscount to remember that a substantial part of the labour side of the retail trade is organised, and it is not satisfying to those who try to improve the status of the workers to find that there is a tendency to go on spreading out this period. We want them to have as many days rest as possible when public holidays occur. This kind of thing may work very well in connection with, say a small shop. with the proprietor and one man who work in together and make an arrangement between themselves, but there would be general disappointment among the organised workers of the retail trade if it were to lead to a further breaking up of the time they were given off at any of these public holidays. It may not be as bad as it appears at first sight, but I hope that, when the noble Viscount gives further consideration to it, he will bear in mind that the retail worker, quite apart from his week or two weeks holiday, likes to get as many days of public holiday time off together as possible, and not have them broken up in three or four pieces.
6.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I rather doubt if that would be necessarily upset if I accepted my noble friend's Amendment. The Bill as it stands allows for compensatory half-holidays at Christmas time. The feature of my noble friend's Amendment is that it allows compensatory holidays to be given in advance, and it is that, of course, which renders it difficult of enforcement. I do not think that, if it can be enforced and is observed, it necessarily deprives a shop assistant of any holidays round about Christmas time, although I suppose that shop assistants themselves would be the first to recognise that Christmas time is not perhaps the easiest time in their particular occupation.
I certainly do not want to commit the Government at this stage. My own feeling remains rather as I said to my noble friend: that the balance of advantage has to be considered in each case, and that is in favour of the Amendment. But if strong representations were made on the lines of the noble Viscount's speech, I know they would weigh with, and be

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taken into account by, my right honourable friend in coming to a conclusion about the matter.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: It means that if a man is going to have to take his days off earlier, during the month, say, of March or the first part of April, and not immediately following the Easter week-end, he may miss an opportunity, after the Friday, say, to have his Sunday, Monday and Tuesday all together in one period of rest.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Perhaps my noble friend will remind me about this point because it has slipped my mind. This particular Amendment is concerned simply with the Christmas holidays. I am not sure whether he has some Amendment down in respect of Easter holidays, but these two Amendments are concerned, with Christmas only.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I am looking at Amendment No. 66 in advance.
LORD COLERAINE: The Easter holiday, the Good Friday holiday, I dealt with when I was moving an earlier Amendment, and my noble friend said then that he would give the matter consideration. I do not think I am competent to enter into detailed argument with the noble Viscount on these matters. For my part, I shall be fully satisfied if the noble Viscount and his right honourable friend will give further consideration to this Amendment and to the arguments both for it and against it. In the light of what he has said, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 37 agreed to.
Clause 38:
Intervals for meals and rest
38.—(l) Subject to the following provisions of this Part of this Act relating to special exceptions, a shop assistant shall not be employed to work continuously about the business of a shop for a spell of more than five hours without an interval of at least half an hour for a meal or rest:
Provided that on a day on which, by virtue of this Part of this Act, such an assistant falls to be allowed a half-holiday, the spell may be increased to five and a half hours.
6.34 p.m.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved, in subsection (l), after "shop assistant" to insert:
"and any person employed as a shop assistant for not more than twenty-live hours in any week".
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is consequential on Amendment No. 97 which we have not yet reached, and so what in effect I am asking your Lordships to tray is that, if you accept this Amendment, you will accept No. 97 when we come to it. If your Lordships do not accept this Amendment, we can deal with No. 97 when we come to it. Amendment No. 97 is to alter the definition of a shop assistant. There, I shall move to insert "for more than twenty-five hours in any week". The result of that will be that, in so far as this Bill is concerned, somebody working for twenty-four hours a week or less will not be covered by the benefits given to a shop assistant unless otherwise specified. I have chosen the figure of twenty-five hours a week for this reason. Long ago, in 1934, in the Shops Act, a differentiation was made between part-time end whole-time workers. Dealing with young persons, the Act did not apply to those who worked twenty-five hours a week or less; so I have brought in the same figure of twenty-five hours.
In retail shops there are, as I know, many part-time workers, mostly married women, who are employed for a few hours a day, in the rush hours. It seems wrong, or not very sensible, that those people, who may work only fifteen or eighteen hours a week, should be covered by the clauses of this Bill giving the same half-holidays and whole holidays as the whole-time worker gets. So I have put these words in Amendment No. 97 really to exclude them from the working of this Bill as regards half-holidays. But now I come to the Amendment about which I am talking, No. 67, which deals with rest hours and meal hours. Here I am moving the insertion of words to ensure that the Bill will also cover
"any person employed as a shop assistant for not more than twenty-five hours in any week"—
a person who would not, if my eventual Amendment is accepted, be covered by the regulation; about resting during working hours. I hope I have made my point clear. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 37, after ("assistant") insert the said words.—(Lord Derwent.)
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: May I put a point before the noble Viscount replies to the noble Lord? There are some aspects about the manner in which he has spoken of the two Amendments which seemed to me for a time possibly to come within the spirit of the Gowers Report. When I look more closely at the Amendment which happens to come first on our list of Amendments, and which alters the definition of a shop assistant for the purpose of these benefits, then I have a certain feeling of alarm as to what the effect of the Amendment could be. The words
"employed…for not more than twenty-five hours in any week"
at least in the Statute itself when passed, would not give any definition as to how the twenty-five hours were to be regarded. If we were going to remove the statutory obligation providing that a worker must not be worked beyond a certain number of hours on a given day without proper provision for mealtime, we should have to make certain that the twenty-five hours were spread over about six days, to make sure that the real intention was not being contravened. In the case of a regular, fully-employed shop worker, it must be provided, for example, that he must not work more than five hours without a proper meal. If he is going to work less than that and do so in the course of two or three days, why should there not be reasonable statutory protection that such a worker should not be on his feet for more than twenty-five hours? I am willing to be the recipient of explanations, but it seems to me fundamental, if we are going to change the definition, that we must make sure that safeguards upon human grounds are not omitted.
LORD DERWENT: I am not sure whether I have made my point clear to the noble Viscount. This Amendment deals with intervals for meals and rest. We have put twenty-five hours or less a week into the clause which protects them for meals and rest. What I am trying to do here is to protect those people for meals and rest time.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I hope I did not misunderstand the noble Lord. I said that when he first began to talk I thought he was
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talking within the spirit of the Gowers Committee. As he went on, I had my doubts.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am not absolutely sure that I have got it right either. However, I will do my best. The difficulty is no fault of my noble friend, who is really in the position of arguing two Amendments at the same time. The substantive Amendment is the one to Clause 64. What he is seeking to do in this Amendment is to give back in advance a small part of what he is going to take away from the part-time assistant in Clause 64. The substantial question in considering this Amendment is not its own merits, because we are agreed in advance that "part-timers" should obtain what they are given in this Amendment. The question is whether it would be right to take away what is proposed to be taken away in Clause 64. There, I confess, I am not with my noble friend. I do not think it is right to take away what is proposed to be taken away in Clause 64. My own view on the draftsmanship of his Amendment—and I think he probably intended it—is that it also takes away the meal interval provision in Clause 32 (2) as well, leaving the meal interval provision in Clause 38 (1). So that he is proposing to take away the half-holiday provision in Clauses 37 and 43, the Sunday provision in Clauses 39 to 41 inclusive, and the meal interval provision in Clause 38 (2). That is a considerable inroad upon the Bill in respect of part-time assistants.
The Bill was intended to make reasonable and flexible provision for part-timers. To give a striking example, the 4 hours provision in Clause 43 (1) (a) is a new provision which has been specially designed for part-timers, and it would have no bearing if this Amendment or the consequential Amendment were accepted. I cannot myself see why the Sunday provisions do not work well enough in their place. If an assistant is employed on a Sunday but not on every weekday the requirements of Clause 39, about time off in lieu of Sunday employment, have been complied with; so I do not see that any hardship is involved in regard to the employer. As I think the noble Viscount opposite said, it tends to involve one in casuistry to attempt to define what a part-

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timer is in relation to any particular number of hours per week. Broadly speaking, the view of the Government is that the provisions of the Bill should apply to part-timers as they do to whole-timers, but that the way in which the Bill has been drafted safeguards the employer from ally injustice. For that reason, I would advise the Committee not to accept this Amendment.
LORD DERWENT: May I ask my noble friend one question about Sundays? Sunday may, of course, be the only day on which these people work. The fact that a person is not there on the other days does not mean that he is given a paid half holiday, does it? Sometimes shops employ a person on Sundays but not during the rest of the week. Is such a person to be given a half-holiday and be paid for it? That would seem to be unfair. He may be working for somebody else for five or six days in the week. If what the noble Viscount has said is correct, does it mean that a person who works on Sunday, must he given a half day and be paid for it?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I have riot so read it, though without notice I should not like to give an opinion on that.
LORD DERWENT: In view of what has been said, but before I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment, I should like to ask the noble Viscount to consider whether, by being over-fair to people who work only a few hours a week—I am not wedded to 25 hours; it could be less—it would not, in fact, inflict a considerable hardship on shopkeepers who also have to be considered in this matter. If the hardship is as severe as I think, some of these people who count on a little extra part-time work may not be employed, and then the public will suffer. That, I think, is a point that I should ask the noble Viscount to look at again. I would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 38 agreed to.
Clause 39 [Sunday work]:
6.46 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved, in subsection (1) (a), to omit "or was, in the immediately preceding week," The noble Earl said: I can explain the point of this Amendment quite briefly. It is purely an enforcement Amendment. I admit that considerations of the convenience of the enforcing author ties must be balanced
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against considerations of the convenience of shop assistants and shopkeepers. Of course, the noble Viscount is in a better position than I am to appreciate such considerations. He said earlier that he realised that it is more difficult for enforcing authorities to deal with holidays in advance than with holidays that are held after the date on which the holiday would normally be given. This clause deals with compensatory holidays for people who work either a half-day or a whole day on Sunday. As it stands, it entitles a shop assistant to a compensatory holiday either before a Sunday or after it. What my Amendment proposes is that the compensatory holiday should fall during the six clays after the Sunday. That is the enforcement point which I should like the noble Viscount to consider. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 17, leave out from ("Sunday") to ("allowed") in line 18.—(The Earl of Listowel.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I say that it is my intention, after this Amendment, to move that the House do resume, with a view to the Adjournment being moved. I should like to thank noble Lords who have played such a useful part in this debate for their helpfulness in assisting me in this difficult and, so far as I am concerned, maiden task of trying to pilot a Bill through a House of Parliament. I am sorry that I cannot en I up by accepting an Amendment; it would be much nicer to do so. The view of the Government towards this Amendment is that, on the whole, it makes for undue rigidity. In this Bill we are following the present law in relation to this particular matter, and the Amendment would constitute a departure from it in the direction of rigidity, which on the whole is something we are anxious to avoid. We are anxious not to make compliance with the Sunday employment provisions more onerous than they are at present, and it would have the effect of rendering them to that degree more onerous. I see that it can be said that a compensatory holiday in advance is slightly more difficult to enforce than a compensatory holiday in arrear. Against that, one has to balance the rigidity. On the whole, I would resist the Amendment, but without any complaint that it was moved.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I thank the noble Viscount for his extremely fair answer. I do not feel in a position to resist it, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 39 agreed to.
House resumed.

NORTHERN IRELAND (COMPENSATION FOR COMPULSORY PURCHASE) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read la, and to be printed.
House adjourned at ten minutes before seven o'clock.