Sitting of 17 December 1957

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
DEATH OF A MEMBER
Mr. Speaker: I regret to have to inform the House of the death of Lieut.-Colonel Wentworth Schofield, T.D., Member for Rochdale, and I desire on behalf of the House to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the hon. Member.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Tower of London (Sunday Opening and Crown Jewels)
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Works whether he will now arrange to open the Tower of London on Sunday afternoons in winter in view of the tourist demand throughout the year.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. Hugh Molson): No, Sir. There are considerable practical difficulties in the way of Sunday afternoon opening, and while these can be faced during the summer months when attendances throughout the week are very heavy, I do not feel that I should be justified in continuing the necessary arrangements during the winter when daily attendances drop very steeply and the days are short.
    Mr. Parker: Could not the Tower be opened for two hours in the afternoon? I gather that the British Holiday Travel Association takes the view that there would be a very good response to such an opening during the week-end.
    Mr. Molson: I do not think there would be a very good response. The number of attendances last year fell from 142,649 in September to 44,000 in October, 27,000 in November and 13,000 in December. This indicates that the Tower is nothing
    174
    like as popular in the winter as it is in the summer. I do not think it would be a good thing to open the Tower of London on Sundays.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Works what action he proposes to take to provide a suitable place to display the Crown Jewels in the Tower of London.
    Mr. Molson: A scheme has been sketched out for a new Jewel House, and more detailed planning will be put in hand when there are prospects of funds being available.
    Mr. Parker: Would there not be a very good return in fees from people who would crowd to see the Jewels? Would it not be a very good investment?
    Mr. Molson: Yes, Sir. I think there would be a good return upon the investment, but, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, the Government have found it necessary to restrict investment at the present time.

    Tudor Furniture (Exhibition)
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Works whether he will take the initiative in making available a suitable public building under his control to the Victoria and Albert Museum for a display of Tudor furniture.
    Mr. Molson: No, Sir, I understand that the museum has no requirement for any such accommodation.
    Mr. Parker: Would it not be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to approach the Crown to see whether St. James's Palace could be made available for this kind of museum display? Other palaces, like Hampton Court and Kensington, have been made available when no longer in use by the Royal Family.
    Mr. Molson: No, Sir. It would not be appropriate for me to make any approach in this matter.

    Stonehenge
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Minister of Works his present intentions with regard to raising one of the fallen trilithons at Stonehenge.
    Mr. Molson: It remains my intention if funds can be provided to re-erect the trilithon next year.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that people were rather expecting that it would be done in the very near future? Can he give us an assurance that it will be done next year?
    Mr. Molson: No, Sir, I cannot give that assurance, but it is my very strongest hope that it will be done next year.

    Roman Remains (Falcon Street, Cripplegate)
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Minister of Works what steps he has taken in conjunction with the City Corporation to ensure the preservation and proper display of the remains of the Roman London wall and fort in Falcon Street, Cripple-gate.
    Mr. Molson: The Corporation of the City of London is proceeding with the scheme for the preservation of the wall and gate to which I referred in reply to the hon. Member's Question on 12th February, 1957. It will be possible for the public to inspect the remains which will be in a chamber underneath Route 11.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, notwithstanding his answer in February, nothing has been done since then? Has he observed the very interesting suggestion put forward by Lord Mottistone for the preservation of this interesting relic of antiquity as a memorial of London of deep significance, by sinking the external level to the old level and thereby providing a very attractive piece of evidence and possibly a centre of interest to tourists from all over the world?
    Mr. Molson: I have not seen the suggestion made by Lord Mottistone. What it is proposed to do is in general accordance with the advice given by the Ancient Monuments Branch of my Ministry. It would be thoroughly well preserved and readily accessible to anyone interested in it. I am sorry that there has been delay in this matter, but that has been due to the time we had to wait for Route 11 to reach that point.

    Strangers Dining Room (Carpets)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Works when the carpets outside the Strangers Dining Room will, in view of their condition, be renewed.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Harmar Nicholls): I hope they will be renewed in the Easter Recess.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Is my hon. Friend aware that hon. Members will be very much gratified at this news?
    Mr. Shinwell: Does the Parliamentary Secretary not think that at a time when the most intricate problems face hon. Members, the Government and the world at large, it is a waste of time and intolerable that Questions of this kind and of so trivial a character should be placed on the Order Paper?

    Directorate-General of Works (General Manager)
    Mr. Malcolm MacPhersonasked the Minister of Works the terms on which he appointed one of his officials as General Manager of the Directorate-General of Works.
    Mr. Molson: The General Manager, who is an established civil servant, will be paid the same salary as a Deputy Secretary.
    Mr. MacPherson: The right hon. Gentleman does not say, however, how long he has been told that he may hold the position. Does he recall that last week on this subject he said, in the first place, that it was unfortunate that a professional candidate whom he could accept did not apply, and, in the second place, that this was an administrative job and that there was no need of professional qualifications? May we know which of those two points of view represents the Minister's firm view about this post?
    Mr. Molson: I hold both views simultaneously and equally strongly.

    Building Research Unit (Baker Street Premises)
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Works when his Department will vacate the flats in Baker Street at present occupied by the Building Operational Research Unit and rehouse that unit with the rest of the Building Research Station.
    Mr. Molson: I hope to move the Building Operations Research Unit to the Building Research Station before the lease of the Baker Street premises expires in June, 1960.
    Mr. Willey: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman do better than that? Surely it is time that we vacated these flats in Baker Street? Surely he recognises that the efficiency of this unit would be much improved if it were housed in the Building Research Station?
    Mr. Molson: There is no urgency about leaving these premises as the lease comes to an end only in June, 1960. As various parts of it become vacant we are removing elsewhere. We hope to begin building accommodation for this unit at the Building Research Establishment near Garston towards the end of 1958.
    Mr. K. Robinson: Is the Minister not aware that hundreds of thousands of Londoners desperately want homes? How can he say that there is no urgency in this matter?

  SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH

    Planning and Development
    Mr. Willeyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what progress has been made in the implementation of the five-year plan for the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research; and in what respects the implementation of that plan has been delayed.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The first 3½ years of the five-year plan of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research have now been completed. The activities of the Department have developed and are developing broadly along the lines planned; for example, at the end of 1957–58, the fourth year of the plan, it is estimated that the staff will have increased by about 750 out of a planned increase of 800, though the Department, in common with all other employers of scientific and technical staff, has not been able to recruit all the specialist staff it requires. The provision of new buildings has also fallen behind, largely due to restriction on capital expenditure, but by the end of the year about half the planned building programme will have been completed.
    Mr. Willey: While appreciating the difficulties, may I ask the Parliamentary
    178
    Secretary to keep this under review, because it is a department of his activities in which we cannot afford to lag behind.
    Mr. Nicholls: I can assure the House that my noble friend takes a keen and continual interest in this point.
    Mr. Willeyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, whether the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has yet been requested to prepare its second five-year plan.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The plans of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research for the five-year period, 1959–64, are at present in course of preparation within the Department and are being considered by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. The Council expects to be submitting proposals to my noble Friend before long.
    Mr. Willey: While thanking the hon. Member for his reply, may I ask him to indicate to the D.S.I.R. that this is a matter in which we cannot afford to be unambitious?
    Mr. Nicholls: The D.S.I.R. itself decides whether or not to take this forward look. It does not have to wait for any instruction from any Government Department.

    Textile Industries (Co-operative Research Associations)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what steps are taken by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research to ensure that there is no undesirable overlap in the work of the grant-aided co-operative research associations serving the textile industries.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: There are close direct contacts between the nine associations in this group, viz., cotton, wool, linen, jute, rayon, hosiery, lace, "hat and felt," and launderers. In addition, 10 years ago the D.S.I.R. established, a Standing Consultative Conference on Textile Research to avoid undesirable duplication and to promote collaboration among the various research associations, or equivalent organisations engaged in textile research, whether in receipt of grant aid from the Department or not.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Does my hon. Friend think that the conference meets often enough, and has its work justified its ten-year life?
    Mr. Nicholls: I think so. The main conference meets every year, and the effective committee of it, which does the main work, meets every quarter. I do not think there is any doubt that it has justified its existence so far.

    Timber (Uses)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what arrangements are made by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research for research into the use of timber.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: Research into the use of timber is conducted mainly at the Forest Products Research Laboratory of D.S.I.R. and also by the research section of the Timber Development Associations and the Furniture Development Council, which are grant-aided by the Department.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: What activities of the Furniture Development Council are grant-aided by the D.S.I.R.?
    Mr. Nicholls: The committee which undertakes the research and the dissemination of the information arising from that research. That is the section of the Furniture Development Council which is grant-aided.
    Mr. Willey: Does the hon. Member recognise the need for research into an alternative to timber and not only for research into the trade itself?
    Mr. Nicholls: Yes, but that does not arise out of this Question.

    Post-Graduate Training Grants
    Mr. Mawbyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, for what purpose the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research makes awards for the maintenance of post-graduate students.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The D.S.I.R. makes post-graduate awards to help meet the country's needs for an adequate supply of persons with post-graduate training in science and technology, except in the
    180
    medical and agricultural sciences which are dealt with by other bodies.
    Mr. Mawby: Does the grant carry with it any condition that the trained man should bring some benefit to the country?
    Mr. Nicholls: No, the grant does not have any specific conditions of that sort, but by and large grants are restricted to British subjects who are normally resident in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Mawbyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, how the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research obtains advice upon the allocation of its Research Studentships.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research has set up a Post-graduate Training Grants Committee under the chairmanship of Sir Eric Ashby. This Committee is composed of three members appointed after consultation with the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals of Universities in the United Kingdom; another member qualified especially to speak for the technical colleges; and professors of high standing in the nine main broad fields of science and technology in the Department's purview. The chairman of the University Grants Committee and a representative of the Ministry of Education sit as Assessors.
    Mr. Mawby: While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him to give us some idea what are the nine broad fields of science and technology?
    Mr. Nicholls: I can answer that question, because it is a question which I myself asked. The answer is: biology and biochemistry; chemical engineering and metallurgy; chemistry; electrical engineering; engineering; geology; mathematics; physics and the social sciences.
    Mr. E. Fletcher: In view of the known concern of the Lord President of the Council for the encouragement of "eggheads," may we have an assurance from the Minister that adequate attention is being given to developing these Research Studentships to the fullest possible extent? May we have an assurance that everything possible is being done in the way of scientific research?
    Mr. Nicholls: Yes. I can assure the hon. Member that my right hon. Friend's interest in "eggheads" applies to this.

  SCOTLAND

    Houses, Cumbernauld (Planning Permission)
    Mr. Benceasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received respecting the refusal of Dunbartonshire County Council to grant planning permission to the Cumbernauld New Town Development Corporation for the erection of a number of dwellings which do not comply with standards laid down by the Dunbartonshire Planning Authority: and what steps he proposes to take.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): The county council granted planning permission for these houses, subject to adjustment of the plans to comply with building byelaw requirements. After full consideration of the views of the county council. I decided to approve the plans under the New Towns Act, with the result that no such adjustment is required.
    Mr. Bence: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many leading authorities, sanitary engineers and architects are very concerned about this type of building and feel that the specification for the work put into the job should be of a very high standard because, if the standard is not of the highest, these ventilating systems break down very often and very quickly?
    Mr. Maclay: The hon Member probably knows that the fans are in duplicate. The system will be in continuous operation. The greatest care has been taken to make certain that it is the best type of equipment of its kind.

    Clydebank High School
    Mr. Benceasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received respecting the occurrence which took place in Clydebank High School, particulars of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, resulting in considerable distress to children and parents.
    Mr. Maclay: I have received only the representations which the hon. Member
    182
    forwarded to me from the parent of one of the children concerned. I have written to the hon. Member giving him the results of my inquiries into this regrettable incident.
    Mr. Bence: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for the very extensive reply which I received this morning, and while accepting many of the points which he makes in that reply, may I ask him if he does not think that it is practically impossible to effect the recruitment of teachers into the general body of education on the basis of their being handpicked by the Director of Education, and that hand-picking for general skill is almost impossible? Does not this demonstrate it is absolutely essential that before anyone goes into a school to teach children, he or she should be properly educated and be certificated as being capable of teaching?
    Mr. Maclay: Of course, we are anxious to get the maximum number of certificated teachers possible, but I would point out that these 43 uncertificated teachers employed in Dunbartonshire are reported to be achieving a very large measure of success.
    Mr. Bence: That is all very well, but this is a case of a breakdown of the teacher-student relationship prejudicing the public interest. How often in the case of an uncertificated teacher is there shown to be a breakdown between students and teacher in fields about which no one knows, because in the case of uncertificated teachers I am assured by many people that breakdowns occur very frequently?
    Mr. Maclay: I can only say that this incident, very regrettable as it is, is the first of its kind that has been brought to my attention.

    Teaching Profession (Candidates)
    Mr. Benceasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he proposes taking to prevent the entry into the teaching profession of unsuitable candidates.
    Mr. Maclay: I see no reason to make any change in the present training and probation arrangements, which do everything practicable to ensure that unsuitable persons do not become eligible for permanent employment as certificated

    183
    teachers. It is for education authorities to satisfy themselves of the personal suitability of those they engage to teach in their schools whether permanently as certificated teachers or temporarily as uncertificated teachers.
    Mr. Bence: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is rather a shock to me, coming as I do from the South and having been in Scotland for eight years, to hear so many Scottish people say that education is on the decline? Will he look into the recruitment of teachers in Scotland and satisfy himself that the full standards regarding the quality of teachers are being observed in order to maintain and, indeed, enhance Scotland's reputation for education?
    Mr. Maclay: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that everything is done that we can do to maintain the standards of teaching throughout Scotland.

    Colston Road Bridge
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the restricted and inadequate nature of Colston Road bridge which forms part of the main east-west link between the major roads A803 and A879; and if he will now consent to the long standing application of the local authority to commence the work of replacement.
    Mr. Maclay: No outstanding application for grant towards the cost of rebuilding this bridge is before me at present. But, if Glasgow Town Council, as highway authority, gives the scheme priority and renews its previous application, I will consider it in the light of the funds available.
    Mr. Hannan: Thank you very much.

    University Students (Grants)
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Secreetary of State for Scotland whether he will appoint an independent committee to examine and report on the question of financial assistance to university students.
    Mr. Maclay: This matter is at present under consideration, but I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: May I take it from that reply that it is likely that my right hon. Friend will consider the suggestion with favour, because no doubt he is aware
    184
    that there are considerable anomalies and variations in the grants awarded to students, and that there is considerable concern in Scotland about the matter?
    Mr. Maclay: I do not think more should be taken from my reply than I have said, but I am very much aware of the great importance of this matter.

    St. Andrews University (Building Site)
    Sir J. Henderson-Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the division of opinion in St. Andrews on the merits of his recent decision relating to new university buildings in the centre of the town: which is criticised on the particular grounds that the procedure of the committee of inquiry leading to that decision was not in accordance with the recommendations of the Franks Committee, and that the West Burn Lane site may not prove adequate for the future scientific needs of the university; and if he will make a full statement on the matter.
    Mr. Nairnasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the joint opposition of the St. Andrews Town Council and the citizens of St. Andrews to his recent decision on the development of the university, and the fact that the proceedings which led up to this decision do not conform to the recommendations of the report of the Committee on Administrative Tribunals and Enquiries, now broadly accepted by the Government, he will order a new inquiry.
    Mr. Maclay: This decision was reached in the light of a ten-day public inquiry conducted by a senior and very experienced member of the Scottish Bar, in the course of which all aspects of the matter were fully examined. The decision was in line with the recommendations in his report, copies of which were sent to all the parties. The relevant statutes do not enable me now to reopen the matter. I am arranging to circulate a fuller statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: While we shall look at the statement in HANSARD tomorrow, arising out of that answer, for which I thank my right hon. Friend, will my right hon. Friend answer this question? If the university stands by the desire to obtain the use of the site, and if

    185
    the proprietors decline to negotiate with the university authorities for the use of the land, what provision is there in the Town and Country Planning Acts to bring this matter to a decision? In particular, is there any provision for a further public inquiry, if it is asked for, at which both sides can state their case with all the facts at their disposal?
    Mr. Maclay: I very much hope that the need for any such considerations will not arise, but if it does, the university would have to ask the town council to consider the compulsory acquisition of the land which is required by the university for university development. It would then be for the town council to submit a compulsory purchase order for the approval of the Secretary of State. This would be subject to the usual procedure about advertising and objections. Objections which amounted to objections to the use of the land in accordance with the recent decision would not, under the terms of the Statute, make it necessary to hold a further inquiry.
    Mr. McInnes: When the local authority has compulsorily acquired the site, under what terms and conditions will it be made available to the university?
    Mr. Maclay: That is another question, which I should not like to anticipate.
    Following is the statement by the Secretary of State for Scotland:
    I realise that there is dissatisfaction with this decision in certain quarters both on procedure and on merits. On procedure, while the university's evidence at this inquiry was given after the evidence for the objectors, the lines of the university's case had been made clear in advance and their witnesses were subjected to Intensive cross-examination. In any case, the Government's broad acceptance of the Franks Report does not of course mean the reopening of proceedings already brought to a conclusion.
    On merits, I would remind the House that the inquiry lasted for ten days during which all aspects of the matter were fully debated, with a further day inspecting sites. It was conducted by a senior and very experienced member of the Scottish Bar as commissioner, wholly independent of my Department, with the assistance of eminent and independent planning assessors. The decision was in line with the recommendations in the commissioner's report, copies of which were sent to all the parties.
    The adequacy of the site for the future scientific needs of the university was one of the crucial points. What the university maintained was that the site was adequate and suitable for the foreseeable needs which St. Salvator's College, St. Andrews, would have for
    186
    basic scientific teaching and research. Peripheral sites were available if any specialised research of a character necessitating the erection of special buildings were to be developed in St. Andrews while further expansion in basic scientific teaching and research beyond that now envisaged in St. Andrews could still he undertaken within the university at Queen's College, Dundee. The university's view that the Westburn Lane site was suitable and adequate in this sense was upheld by the commissioner.
    I am aware that this conclusion has been challenged, the Professor of Physics himself having recently criticised it as a short-sighted view, but the University Grants Committee is in full agreement with it. Nor is the impression correct that the university has now asked for additional ground at Westburn Lane. The Town Council have agreed to negotiate for the sale to the university of a small area not designated for use in the next ten years: but this area forms part of the whole Westburn Lane site allocated for university development and if it is available now it can be used to improve access to the part of the site due to be developed within that period.
    As has already been made clear in correspondence and in replies to Questions both here and in another place, it is not open to me to review the decision; nor can I seek to alter its effect by fresh proceedings, because no new circumstances have arisen with a hearing en the merits of the decision.

    White Fish Authority (Loans)
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that, owing to the difference between Scottish and English law, the White Fish Authority has to limit aid on the capital cost of new developments to Scottish industrialists, as Scottish law does not acknowledge movables as security as is the case in England; and what action he proposes to take to overcome this handicap to the Scottish fishing industry.
    Mr. Maclay: I am aware that the law regarding security for loans in Scotland has caused some difficulty for the White Fish Authority and Herring Industry Board. I am exploring the matter with the Authority and the Board to see whether a solution can he found.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: While appreciating the great difficulty in this matter, may I ask my right hon. Friend if it is not true that the Legal Department has been considering it for a very long time, and that it involves a much greater question than only the White Fish Authority, because it applies to all Scottish industry? Will my right hon. Friend therefore also investigate these wider possibilities?
    Mr. Maclay: As my hon. Friend has said, the widest possible implications are raised by her supplementary question, and I assure her that the difficulties arising out of the present situation have been looked at for a considerable period of years and that no clear solution has yet been found. We have explored the particular point raised in her first question with the Authority, and we are trying to see whether we can get round it in any other way.
    Mr. D. Johnston: As the right hon. Gentleman has said, this whole question of the floating charge raises very large considerations. Would the right hon. Gentleman consider remitting the question of the amendment of the law on the floating charge to the Scottish Legal Reform Committee?
    Mr. Maclay: I should like to think about that.

    Highlands and Islands (Development)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will set up a development board for the Highlands and Islands.
    Mr. Maclay: The Government are not convinced that it is necessary or desirable in the interests of Highland development to appoint such a body. But I am considering further representations which have been made to me on this subject.
    Mr. Grimond: I am glad to hear that the Secretary of State still has an open mind on this subject—[An HON. MEMBER: "Or half open?"]—or half open. If he comes down on this proposal, will he at least have a look at the existing bodies concerned with Highland development and consider whether they too have financial or general powers sufficient to carry out the many admirable recommendations that have been made? Will he also have a look at the overlapping which now exists?
    Mr. Maclay: One of my main concerns with the proposal is that it would be adding yet another body to the very large number of bodies already existing for this very purpose. Certainly, I will look into the question of overlapping, but it has been examined, and I do not think that at the moment it is too serious.
    Mr. John MacLeod: Surely, that is the very point—that there are far too many bodies in the Highlands looking into the question of Highland development? Is it not time that they were co-ordinated into some such body as the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) suggests?
    Mr. T. Fraser: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the annual rate of depopulation in the last few years has considerably exceeded the rate of the previous hundred years? Does not that show that present policies for the Highlands and Islands are inadequate and that some new policy is perhaps needed?
    Mr. Maclay: I am by no means convinced that adding another body to those already existing would be the solution to our problem. Indeed, I think it would be adding to our difficulties.

    Local Government Finance
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make available to hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies detailed information regarding local government finance or, alternatively, supply them with copies of the document published annually by the Municipal Treasurers' Association.
    Mr. Maclay: I am placing in the Library duplicated copies of a Summary of Financial Statistics prepared by my Department for 1955–56. I could not undertake to supply hon. Members with copies of a publication such as the Rating Review for which the Government is not responsible. This is published by the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants (Scottish Branch) and can be purchased from the Institute. I will ensure that there is a copy in the Library.
    Mr. McInnesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland on what dates he laid before Parliament the annual summary of Scottish local authority finance returns for the years 1950 to 1956 in accordance with the provisions of Section 298 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947.
    Mr. Maclay: The Returns for 1950–51 were presented on 1st August, 1956, and those for the next three years on 18th February, 30th May and 29th October this year, respectively. Returns for later years are in preparation.
    Mr. McInnes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that not only is he in default of the statutory provisions of the Act, but his failure to lay these statistical returns before both Houses of Parliament places his Scottish colleagues at a disadvantage with their English colleagues, whose statistics are always up-to-date? Will he do something about the matter?
    Mr. Maclay: As I think the hon. Member will realise from my reply, we are making a substantial improvement in the time taken to produce these returns. We did fall very badly behind, I agree, but now we have practically caught up with the figures made available to us by local authorities.

    Law Reform (Reports)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his consultations with the appropriate bodies have now been completed in respect of the three reports of the Law Reform Committee and when he intends to introduce legislation to give effect to the recommendations.
    Mr. Maclay: The consultations to which I referred in my reply to the hon. Member on 21st May are proceeding. I am not therefore able to say when it will be possible to introduce legislation.
    Mr. Hannan: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that in England they have already dealt with two similar reports? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman press on with this and rectify some of the matters in Scotland?
    Mr. Maclay: The matter is not entirely in my hands. I have asked various interested bodies for comments on the First and Third Reports, and I must await their observations.

    Law of Succession (Report)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why there has been delay in giving effect to proposals contained in the Report on the Law of Succession in Scotland presented in 1950; what are the difficulties; and when he intends to introduce legislation.
    Mr. Maclay: The Mackintosh Committee recommended fundamental changes in the law of succession in Scotland,
    190
    some of them in fields subsequently covered by the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce and the Hurst Committee on Adoption. It is necessary to consider the Mackintosh Committee's recommendations in the light of the findings of these later inquiries, and I am not yet able to say when it will be possible to introduce legislation on the law of succession.
    Mr. Hannan: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it is already seven years since the Report was presented, in 1950? Is that not long enough, in all conscience, to deal with the matter?
    Mr. Maclay: Subsequently the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce and the Hurst Committee on Adoption have reported. It would be unwise to proceed without linking up all the work of those bodies. That is going on at the moment.
    Mr. Johnston: Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect that a former Lord President, Lord Cooper, stated some years ago that our present law of intestacy succession was a scandal and that something should be done about it? The two Committees to which the right hon. Gentleman referred reported a considerable time ago. What is the period of gestation of the Secretary of State on a Bill?
    Mr. Maclay: When dealing with such a subject as the law of succession in Scotland, I should think it would be fairly long.

    Houses (Renting)
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses with valuations of £40 and under are vacant and available for renting.
    Mr. Maclay: The information asked for is not available.
    Mrs. Mann: Is it not the case that it is not available because there are no houses to let? Is it not the case that since the end of the war private enterprise has not provided a single house to rent but has taken away from the efforts of the local authority by selling houses vacated by rehoused tenants of the local authority?
    Mr. Maclay: I do not think the hon. Lady is right in saying that there are

    191
    no houses to let coming into the market. If one watches the newspapers carefully one sees that there are. I do not accept the implications of the second part of the supplementary question.

    Defence Contracts (Memorandum)
    Mr. Malcolm MacPhersonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to be in a position to reply to the Scottish Council, Development and Industry, on the subject of their memorandum on the reduction in defence work recently sent to him.
    Mr. Maclay: I shall reply as soon as possible, but my consultations with my colleagues are not yet complete.
    Mr. MacPherson: While I make no complaint about the right hon. Gentleman taking time to consider fully his reply, may I ask whether he will be in a position to communicate the general nature of his reply to this House?
    Mr. Maclay: I think I should have to have notice of that question, because at the moment this is a matter of a letter between the Scottish Council and myself; but I will certainly consider what the hon. Member suggests.

    Roads (Survey)
    Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will arrange for an impartial engineering survey of Scottish roads with a view to increasing their safety characteristics and also helping the tourist industry.
    Mr. Maclay: No, Sir. I do not think that such a survey would add usefully to the information already available about Scottish highway needs.
    Mr. Rankin: Does the Secretary of State mean by that rather depressing answer that he thinks that a high and uniform state of roadways of first-class quality is not necessary in Scotland? Is that what he means? If he does, will he think it over again? Will he not try to take the initiative in organising a conference of technical and other interests concerned in order to give us—what we have not got at present—a national picture of the needs of Scotland concerning her roads?
    Mr. Maclay: I can assure the hon. Member that my desire is to see the best
    192
    possible quality of roads, from every point of view, throughout the whole of Scotland. I feel I should point out to him that we are getting on with the job. At the end of March work in progress and about to begin totalled about £l6 million, and the position is improving the whole time.
    Mr. Bence: Would the right hon. Gentleman think again about this, because we set up several bodies to inquire into productivity? May I assure him that a large percentage of the benefits of productivity are being completely nullified by the terrible state of British roads?
    Mr. Maclay: That is rather a double question. Of course one is interested in improving our roads to the best possible standard as quickly as possible, but I believe that in the construction of roads related to the question of productivity we know as much in this country about new roads as any country does.

    Radiographers
    Miss Horbisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many radiographers are employed in the National Health Service in Scotland; and how many have left this service since the inception of the National Health Service apart from those who have retired on age grounds.
    Mr. Maclay: The number of radiographers employed in the National Health Service in Scotland at September, 1957, was 428. I am sorry that the number who has left the Service since the inception of the National Health Service is not available.
    Miss Horbison: Is the Minister aware that a number of radiographers have left the National Health Service? Is he aware that there is a shortage of radiographers in Scotland and grave dissatisfaction among them? Is he further aware that these radiographers have had smaller increases in remuneration that almost any other workers in the public service and that the answer given by the Minister of Health yesterday will cause much greater dissatisfaction among them? Can the Secretary of State assure us that very soon there will be a meeting of the Whitley Council to examine these matters?
    Mr. Maclay: I would inform the hon. Lady that the numbers in Scotland are

    193
    improving. They increased from 399 in March, 1955, to 428 in September, 1957. There is a steady but slow improvement. There is still a shortage, and everything is being done to overcome it. A claim for increased salaries was recently lodged by the Society of Radiographers, which I understand is before the appropriate committee of the Whitley Council.

    Farms (Inspection Notices)
    Mr. Hoyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) how many farms in Scotland were inspected under notices similar to those issued by Roxburgh subcommittee of the Border Agricultural Executive Committee which were found to be illegal; and
    (2) if the 21 farmers in the Roxburgh area of the Border Agricultural Executive Committee, whose farms were inspected under notices which on investigation were found to be illegal, have now received apologies from him and what action he has taken to prevent a repetition of such action, and to safeguard the rights of all farmers in future.
    Mr. Maclay: The notices referred to were, as I have already admitted, incorrect in form, but no illegality was involved in their issue. To obtain the information requested regarding the whole of Scotland would require a disproportionate expenditure of time and labour. I have taken steps to eliminate the procedural fault in the future and have given an apology in the one case where complaint was subsequently made.
    Mr. Hoy: I can hardly accept from the right hon. Gentleman that it would be difficult to find this information, because the agricultural executive committees are bound to have these returns. In connection with the particular case in which the Scottish Office admits guilt, why did it take so long for the Secretary of State to do so? Why was it necessary for a long correspondence to ensue, not only with the farmer concerned, but between myself and the Scottish Office? Why did we have to have an article in the Farming News, written by a lawyer, before the Secretary of State admitted the guilt of the Scottish Office? Will he take good care in future to see that when farms have to be inspected he at least sends farmers to do that and not officials from the office who have no knowledge of farming?
    Mr. Maclay: As the hon. Member knows, I have taken a great deal of personal trouble and had many contacts with him over this very difficult matter. In finding how many wrong notices have been served all over Scotland. I should have to go back to 1948 when the original instruction was drafted. The first of the 21 inappropriate notices to which the hon. Member has referred was issued in June, 1951. This has taken a great deal of research. I can assure the hon. Member that I have taken steps to eliminate the procedural fault, and I hope there will not be similar difficulty again.
    Mr. Hoy: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it rather peculiar that 20 of these notices should have been issued as late as November, 1955? In view of the fact that he has now admitted that all the notices were incorrect, is it not right that he should apologise to all the farmers concerned?
    Mr. Maclay: The question was not raised by any of the farmers concerned, nor did any of the farmers object to entry.
    Mr. Hoy: In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter again on the Adjournment.

    Nationalised Industries (Boards)
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give a list of members of nationalised boards appointed by him who also serve on the boards of public companies, listing the companies concerned.
    Mr. Maclay: Members of nationalised boards are listed in the standard works of reference, and any directorships held by them can also be readily ascertained from such sources.
    Mr. Ernest Davies: Why will not the Secretary of State answer the Question? Quite a number of Questions put in this House can be answered by referring to books of reference. This is a specific question concerning members of boards for which he is responsible. Could he give the information? If he did, would he not find that certain members of the boards are also members of public companies?
    Mr. Maclay: While one always tries to help hon. Members who ask Questions. I really think that if Questions.

    195
    are put down seeking information readily available elsewhere, it would take a disproportionate amount of time and work in the Department to meet those requests.

    Whiteinch Tunnel (Sub-Contract)
    Mr. Malcolm MacPhersonasked the Secretary of State far Scotland whether he will make a statement about the allocation of contracts for the supply of cast-iron products for the Lenthouse-Whiteinch tunnel.
    Mr. Maclay: I understand that Glasgow Corporation, on the advice of their consulting engineers, has agreed to a proposal of the main contractor that an offer by a Scottish firm to carry out part of the sub-contract for the cast-iron lining should not be accepted, though it was £21,000 less than the next lowest. The reasons were that the Scottish firm could not quote for all the items required, would have had to instal special equipment and alter its foundry lay-out, and had not carried out similar work before.
    I should have been glad if the work had gone to a Scottish firm, and so, I am sure, would the Corporation; but I see no reason to question their decision in the matter.
    Mr. MacPherson: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Scottish light-castings industry in Falkirk and Eastern Stirlingshire has been running on short time in recent years and has a very questionable future ahead of it? Does Ste realise that the people engaged in that industry will think that the sending of this contract across the Border is a disaster? Further, why could not the part of the contract which could be fulfilled—as in any case it was £21,000 below the next lowest tender—be accepted? Further, may I ask whether he himself, as Secretary of State, tries to exercise a general oversight over the placing of such contracts in order to make sure that work that can be done in Scotland is so done?
    Mr. Maclay: I would repeat my regret and my very real understanding of the feelings aroused by this contract going South. It would have been very much better could the contract have come to Scotland, but this is a highly technical problem. In reply to the latter
    196
    part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary, this was actually the case of a sub-contractor—there is Glasgow Corporation, a contractor and a sub-contractor—and my direct influence over that contract is very remote. But, of course, I try to see that as much work as possible is done in Scotland.
    Mr. Rankin: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In case the products concerned should go to the wrong place, might I point out that it is the "Linthouse" Tunnel and not the "Lenthouse" Tunnel?
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the firm in question probably has the greatest experience of iron in this country, being one of the original founders of the whole iron-founding industry? Is he further aware that it received the commendation of the Select Committee during the war for its excellence in economical production, and that this estimate was £21,000 below that of the other firm? Surely some investigation should have been made into the statement that it could not do the work, for the firm itself is quite confident that it could and that there was no justification for putting the contract South.
    Mr. Maclay: I have the greatest admiration for the firm in question, but the right hon. Gentleman will realise that this is a very technical problem which involves the whole fate of this tunnel.
    Mr. Paget: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State for Scotland has just announced that he discriminates unfairly against English firms. Are we not to be allowed a single supplementary on such an outrageous statement?
    Mr. Speaker: I do not think the Secretary of State said that. I understand that the complaint in the original Question, with which I am primarily concerned, was that the discrimination was against Scotland.
    Mr. Paget: With the utmost respect, the Minister has said that he always did his utmost to see that contracts—public. Government, contracts—went to Scotland. Surely that is an outrageous statement.
    Mr. MacPherson: Further to that point of order. May I ask whether it was not the case that I reminded the Secretary of

    197
    State for Scotland and my hon. Friends and others that this was an industry in which there is short-time working, in which men are being laid off, and which needs work?
    Mr. Speaker: I do not think the Secretary of State, if he has tried to discriminate, has been successful in this case.

    National Health Service Employees (Pay)
    Miss Herbisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he proposes to review his decision to refuse the 3 per cent. award made to the administrative and clerical staff of the National Health Service.
    Mr. Maclay: My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Health and I have undertaken to reconsider this decision after an appropriate interval of time. We have fixed no date, and in deciding when to review we shall take into account the economic situation and any other relevant circumstances.
    Miss Herbison: Is the Minister aware that, apart from the grave injustice of the previous decision, there is very great ill-feeling amongst these workers? If he may reconsider it, would he bear in mind the effect on the National Health Service of the ban on overtime by these workers? Is he aware that there are already signs that the ban is having grave effects, and that some nurses—poorly paid workers—had to wait for their salaries because of this ban?
    Mr. Maclay: I am not aware that any ill effects have yet been felt by patients as a result of the ban on overtime. Obviously, when the time does come for review every consideration will be looked at.
    Mr. Ross: Could the Secretary of State tell us what is the "appropriate interval of time"? Appropriate to what?
    Mr. Maclay: I did not say an appropriate interval of time. I meant an appropriate time for consideration in the light of the general economic conditions of the country.
    Mr. Ross: Translate it into English.
    Mr. H. Morrison: Can the Minister really give the House no general idea
    198
    as to when this revised consideration is to take place? Is it fair to leave the House in the air like this? Should he not give some consideration as to what period of time is likely to elapse?
    Mr. Maclay: No, Sir. Quite clearly, the position has to be watched extremely closely, and it would be quite wrong to attempt to forecast the future at this moment.

  NUCLEAR TESTS
  Mr. A. Robertsasked the Prime Minister what action he proposes to take on the official proposal made on 11th December by Marshal Bulganin to the effect that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is prepared to stop nuclear weapon tests from the New Year provided that Great Britain and the United States of America agree to do likewise.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given yesterday to the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs.
  Mr. Roberts: Is the Lord Privy Seal aware that the majority of people in Britain really do believe that the Government are not doing sufficient in this direction? Is he further aware that the initiative now in the hands of the U.S.S.R. is having a profound effect on the people of the Middle and Far East?
  Mr. Butler: I think that my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, who are at present at N.A.T.O., are well aware of these considerations, but I would remind the hon. Gentleman that in the original answer it appears that M. Bulganin still envisages the suspension of the nuclear tests in isolation from a disarmament agreement, and with that we do not agree.

  HOSPITAL STAFFS WHITLEY COUNCIL (DEPUTATION)
  Mr. Mellishasked the Prime Minister whether a date has yet been fixed for his meeting with the Staff Side Whitley Council, Hospital Staffs.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply. My right hon. Friend has arranged to see the deputation towards the end of this week, or at the beginning of next.
  Mr. Mellish: Will the Lord Privy Seal ask his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to take note of the fact that the Minister of Health yesterday announced an award by the Whitley Council, after arbitration, to another section of workers in the hospital service, and that it really does make his previous decision quite ludicrous? And will he please bring this matter to an end? It is a wretched dispute, and ought to be stopped.
  Mr. Butler: I think my right hon. Friend ought to be free to see this deputation. Of course, I will bring to his attention the point raised by the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. H. Morrison: Can we take it from the right hon. Gentleman that the Prime Minister, in meeting the deputation, will not meet it with a closed mind but will have an open mind and will be willing to listen to the representations on their merits, notwithstanding the previous decision, which we deplore, of the Minister of Health?
  Mr. Butler: I cannot give any undertaking as to what state of mind my right hon. Friend will have. We must leave the Prime Minister complete authority to receive the deputation as he thinks best, but I feel certain that he would not take the trouble to see it—as, indeed, he wishes to—unless he wished to hear what it had to say.

  MR. BULGANIN (LETTER)
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the official letter received from the Soviet Prime Minister on 11th December.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that similar letters have been sent to the Heads of other North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Governments. Many of the issues raised are of common interest. Consultation with these Governments is clearly desirable.
  Mr. Henderson: May the House take it that the speech of the Prime Minister in Paris yesterday is a definite indication that Her Majesty's Government wish to enter into direct conversations in reply to the proposals made by Marshal Bulganin?
  Mr. Butler: I think that hon. Members must take the Prime Minister's speech as it was delivered. He said this:
  "I would make no concession to our safety, yet I would go to any length in discussion, debate or argument which would prove our sincerity."
  That, I think, represents the view of my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Grimond: While I appreciate the difficulty of sending a final reply to this sort of letter, surely we should not now be taken by surprise every time the Russians sent us a letter of this sort. Should we not be able to make some comment upon it or give some answer to it, without always this endless delay which seems to show that we are thrown on the defensive by these letters every time?
  Mr. Butler: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman at all. There was a series of correspondence with the Russian leaders some months ago. Lengthy answers were sent by my right hon. Friend, which seemed to me to be conclusive in their argument and to be very effective replies to the letters sent to us. On this occasion, immediately before the N.A.T.O. gathering, certain communications, varying in form, were received by a variety of Governments from the head of the Russian Government. I think that it is quite natural, when one is meeting one's friends, that one should discuss the correspondence which was sent to them.
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether he has now received a further communication from the Soviet Prime Minister proposing a treaty of friendship and peaceful co-existence between the Governments of the United States of America, the United Kingdom, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply. I am not sure to what proposal the right hon. and learned Gentleman is referring. The letter of 11th December from Mr. Bulganin received by my right

  201
  hon. Friend did not propose the conclusion of an Anglo-Soviet treaty of friendship. However, a suggestion was recently made at the United Nations by the Soviet Deputy-Foreign Minister for the conclusion of such a treaty between the United States and Soviet Governments.

  NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES (BOARDS)
  Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Prime Minister the policy and practice of Her Majesty's Government in regard to members of nationalised boards serving on the boards of public companies.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply. Full-time Members of nationalised boards are normally required to give up other, appointments. In exceptional cases, however, they may, with the approval of the Minister concerned, hold outside directorships. Part-time members may hold outside directorships which, in the opinion of the Minister, would not he likely to prejudice the discharge of their Functions as members of the nationalised board.
  Mr. Davies: Does not the Lord Privy seal consider that the time has now come to lay down a new principle in this matter? Have not recent events shown that the hopes he has expressed are not always fulfilled, and is there not a danger that, when members of the boards have outside interests, there can be a conflict of loyalties which is harmful to the nationalised industries?
  Mr. Butler: If, by his insinuation, the hon. Gentleman is referring to any matters which are at present sub judice, I hope that he will not persist in his observations. As regards the issue in general, I am satisfied that no such case has arisen. The reason that I mention, first of all, the "approval" of the Minister in the case of full-time members and, secondly, the "opinion" of the Minister in the case of part-time members is that that is precisely the position, and it will certainly be the object of the Ministers concerned to remember the points which have been raised in this interchange.
  Mr. H. Wilson: While the Prime Minister did not follow the same high standards of the Lord Privy Seal in regard to matters which were, at any rate at that
  202
  time, morally sub judice, is the Lord Privy Seal aware that when the appropriate time comes we on this side of the House, and, I hope, some hon. Gentlemen opposite, will want to probe the full implications of anything which may be disclosed?
  Mr. Butler: If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to probe what is found by the court at present sitting, I think that he had better wait until the court has reported; that is the right time to do it. We can then all have a look at the impartial conclusions of the Tribunal set up for this purpose.

  ATOMIC ENERGY (DE-CLASSIFICATION GUIDE)
  Mr. Masonasked the Prime Minister when the United States of America and the United Kingdom Joint Declassification Committee was formed: what are its present functions; and if he will give the names of the sitting members.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply.
  A Joint De-classification Guide has been in use by the United Kingdom. Canada and the United States since April, 1946. Revision of the guide is made by agreement between the countries concerned and is based on the recommendations of periodic conferences attended by their representatives. Membership of any particular conference depends on the sections of the Declassification Guide under discussion.
  Mr. Mason: Could the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House to what extent this Committee has been responsible for suppressing the news of the partial control of the H-bomb experiments at Harwell, and can he say when a full statement will be made on this matter?
  Mr. Butler: It is hoped to publish the full scientific details early in the New Year, if that will be of any help to the hon. Gentleman.

  AIRCRAFT (NUCLEAR BOMBS)
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister why it is Her Majesty's Governments' policy for aeroplanes stationed in this country to carry nuclear bombs on

  203
  patrol, in view of the fact that their civil defence policy is based on the expectation of getting long enough notice of the outbreak of hostilities to enable them to evacuate 12 million people.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply.
  It seems quite possible to reconcile the fine points of distinction drawn by the hon. Member.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Can the Lord Privy Seal reconcile the fact that, in civil defence, the Government are staking the lives of the people of the country on the assumption that they will have long enough to evacuate 12 million people and, in air defence, they are further risking people's lives by the danger of accident through an error of judgment starting off a world war? By acting on these two conflicting assumptions, have the Government not made clear that either their air defence policy is a panic measure which is unnecessary or their civil defence policy is a cynical sham and swindle?
  Mr. Butler: No, Sir; the hon. Gentleman is very often wrong in his assumptions. The position is that discretion lies within the power of the Government in relation to the first part of the Question and, in relation to the second, we are ourselves of opinion that it is possible to have a period of notice. Therefore, it is possible to reconcile the two parts of the hon. Gentleman's question.

  SCOTLAND (MINISTRIES)
  Mr. Woodburnasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the proposal to have Ministerial co-ordination of Welsh economic growth under the Minister for Welsh Affairs, he will arrange for a similar co-ordination of United Kingdom Ministries operating in Scotland under the Secretary of State, in view of the latter's general responsibility for Scotland's economic growth.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply.
  My right hon. Friend is satisfied that the powers of the Secretary of State are sufficient for this purpose.
  Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that so far it has never
  204
  been possible for the Secretary of State to have heads of Departments consulting him in regard to the economic growth of Scotland, and that this new development in regard to Wales is one which would be very useful in consultations about certain aspects of the economic growth of Scotland?
  Mr. Butler: I should have thought that the Secretary of State for Scotland had plenty of powers and that he could use them. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), when he was Secretary of State, set up an economic committee, which was referred to in Cmd. 7308. I understand that that committee last met in May, 1950. If the right hon. Gentleman and his friends had been so keen on this, I do not know why they did not get that committee together more often.
  Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is at least necessary that there should be some joint co-ordination between different Ministers in regard to the economic growth of Scotland and that this has so far been accomplished through the good will of other Ministers, there being no such formal organisation as has now been set up by the Minister for Wales?
  Mr. Butler: Within Scotland, the Secretary of State has quite sufficient powers. I think. As regards the industrial development of Scotland vis-à-vis England, there are other measures possible within the Government machine for co-ordinating the two interests.

  OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT (TOP SECRET DOCUMENTS)
  Mr. Woodburnasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the issue of Government Top Secret documents to persons outwith Government service imposes no automatic obligations under the Official Secrets Act; and if he will so extend the application of the Act in future.
  Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply. The right hon. Gentleman is misinformed.
  Mr. Woodburn: In that case, can the right hon. Gentleman inform me whether the Official Secrets Act applies to those

  205
  receiving Top Secret documents, whether they are employees of the Government or not? If not, is he prepared to extend the Official Secrets Act to cover all those who receive Top Secret official documents?
  Mr. Butler: I am informed that Section 2 of the Act of 1911 covers any Person.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. J. Griffiths: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he has a statement to make on business?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): Yes, Sir. I have been in communication with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. He regrets that it will not be possible for him or the Foreign Secretary to be in their places for a foreign affairs debate on Thursday. We propose that the debate on foreign affairs should now take place on Friday until 5 p.m., when the House will rise for the Christmas Recess. We would propose to devote Thursday to the consideration of subjects to be raised by hon. Members under the arrangements made by Mr. Speaker which would otherwise have been taken on Friday. I hope that this will meet the general convenience of the House.
Mr. Griffiths: I need not comment on that. Will the Leader of the House arrange that either the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary will open the debate on Friday and give us a report on the N.A.T.O. conference?
Mr. Butler: Yes. Sir. That is what they would desire to do.
Mr. Fell: Will my right hon. Friend consider whether it would be possible to carry on the debate on Friday until six o'clock rather than five o'clock? [HON. MEMBERS: "Longer."] I do not mind how long the debate is carried on. In view of the immense importance of what is now going on in Paris and what is to be discussed during the debate on Friday, and of the fact that it is unfortunate that it could not be held on a normal day, like Thursday, cannot my right hon. Friend reconsider the position and try to arrange for the debate to last
206
at least until six o'clock or even later? If this is not possible, will my right hon. Friend at least give an assurance that questions that we on this side ask of the Foreign Secretary or the Prime Minister will be answered?
Mr. Butler: We have deliberately extended the debate from four o'clock until five o'clock on Friday. We thought that that would be reasonable. In fact, that will give six hours' debate, which is the equivalent of a normal day. By taking the Adjournment debates on Thursday, private Members will get just a little more time. In the circumstances, therefore. I think that we had better adhere to the arrangements we have made, which involve an extra hour.
In reply to the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, it is the invariable practice of Her Majesty's Ministers to answer both their hon. Friends and their opponents in the same way.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Following the statement by the Leader of the House, may I ask whether consultations have taken place concerning the basis on which the debate is to be held? If not, has this matter been considered?
Mr. Butler: We have had a talk with the Opposition through the usual channels, but I will be very glad to hear the views of any hon. Member. The likely form of the debate is that either my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister or my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary will open the debate and describe what has been happening at the N.A.T.O. conference but that will not preclude a wide-ranging debate on any subject that any hon. Member cares to raise. It will be a wide-ranging debate with, again, one of the Ministers replying at the end.
Mr. Walter Elliot: For the convenience of hon. Members, will it be possible to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the subjects of the Adjournment debates which are to be taken on Thursday?
Mr. Butler: The only way I can answer that is by saying that if Mr. Speaker gave a Ruling or made a statement on the subject, it would automatically get into the OFFICIAL. REPORT. It is a matter for Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: I did, of course, make an allocation of the time at my disposal between hon. Members who applied to raise subjects on the Adjournment on the assumption that it would be on Friday. Now, the change of business makes it necessary for me to reconsider the matter in view of the circumstances. I do not know that there will be very much more time on Thursday than on Friday, because normally, I expect, there will be a Motion for the House to rise the following day and to adjourn for the Christmas Recess, which may take some time. Then, I understand, there is to be a Royal Commission, which will take some time, also. I must, however, look into the matter. I was told only just before we came into the House that this rearrangement was to be made.
Mr. S. Silverman: Reverting to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent. South (Mr. Ellis Smith) on Friday's business, are we to gather from what the Leader of the House said that the Government propose that the debate will take place on a Motion for the Adjournment and that the Government do not propose to put down a substantive Motion approving what was done at the N.A.T.O. conference?
Mr. Butler: The idea is that the debate should take place on the Adjournment, which will give everybody the widest opportunity of joining in the debate. The debate will, therefore, take place in the form I have suggested.
Mr. Collins: Does that mean that the half-hour Adjournment debate which would have taken place on Thursday will still take place that day after the other Adjournment debates?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir.

NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (AMENDMENT)

  Mr. Speaker's Ruling
  Mr. Speaker: I wish to make a statement to the House about the points of order which were raised last Wednesday when the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) was moving to introduce a Bill under what we call the Ten Minutes Rule.
  208
  On Wednesday, the hon. Member for Wycombe was moving for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the free supply of drugs to the patients of doctors in private practice. He proposed that his Bill should provide for the resulting charge to be borne by the Land Fund. His argument was that by this means he would avoid the necessity for the prior Queen's Recommendation as required by Standing Order No. 78 and a Resolution of a Committee of the whole House as required by Standing Order No. 79.
  Technically, the hon. Member's argument is valid. The National Land Fund is a separate entity, not replenished from the Exchequer. Consequently, new expenditure charged upon it does not result in a charge upon the Exchequer and does not need the Queen's Recommendation or a Money Resolution. The matter is dealt with in page 763 of the latest edition of Erskine May. It is there instanced that the Historic and Ancient Monuments Bill, 1953, imposed charges on the Land Fund without either the Queen's Recommendation having been signified or a Money Resolution.
  It may be thought that there is a certain congruity of purpose between the Land Fund and historic buildings, which is absent when it is proposed to charge the Fund with druggists' bills; but that consideration seems to me to bear rather on the merits of the Bill than upon the procedural point. We must remember that the hon. Member is proposing to proceed by a Bill. It is, I think, impossible to argue that Parliament is incapable of decreeing such a diversion of the Fund as the hon. Member proposes. Indeed, Section 48 of the Finance Act, 1946, which set up the Land Fund, states that the Fund is to
  "be used for the purposes mentioned in this Part of this Act and for such other purposes as Parliament may hereafter determine."
  No limit is imposed or even indicated on those "other purposes". I therefore concluded that the hon. Member for Wycombe was in order in asking leave to introduce his Bill.
  Argument was addressed to me, notably by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison), to the effect that the financial proposal of the hon. Member for Wycombe was, in fact, a subterfuge which would defeat the constitutional control of expenditure by the Government of

  209
  the day. There is great force in this argument, but I do not think that it is for the Chair to give effect to its conclusion. The subject was considered by the Select Committee on Procedure in its recent Report, when it was drawn to the Committee's attention by evidence and a memorandum from the Treasury.
  Hon. Members will find the recommendation in the final paragraph of the Select Committee's first Report. It was:
  "Your Committee do not consider that there is any reason for extending the Standing Orders to cover purposes other than those for which they already provide. From the evidence given to them they have not been made aware of any difficulties which have arisen in this connection. The number of Funds which might be affected is very small and Government expenditure is limited by statute. Legislation which resulted in the expenditure by the Funds of public money in excess of the statutory limits would necessitate new legislation to authorise such additional expenditure. This would involve the introduction of a new money resolution, and this, of course, would have to be introduced by the Government and would he debatable."
  The fact stated by the Committee as the first ground of its recommendation is that the Committee was not "made aware of any difficulties which have arisen in this connection." It may be that further resort to this device may raise difficulties of which the Committee was not made aware. If that happens the House may have to reconsider the matter. But that is not for me. The ability to use the rules of the House as they stand is important for the rights of private Members, and particularly for those of the party in opposition.
  My conclusion, therefore, is that, as the proposal of the hon. Member for Wycombe is in order, he should be allowed to ask the leave of the House to introduce his Bill.
  Mr. H. Morrison: I am sure that the House will be much obliged to you, Mr. Speaker, for the careful Ruling you have given, and I admit that there is force in the number of the points which you have put before the House, but may I put this consideration to you? Where there is a recognised channel of expenditure provided by Statute, such as the National Health Service, is it not an abuse of the procedure of the House that somebody should, in order to bring in a Bill, invent another and really irrelevant channel for financing something? Is it not a serious thing to depart from the doctrine that
  210
  expenditure can be proposed only by Ministers? There are 10 or 11 Bills on the Notice Paper. Somebody says there are 13. That is unlucky. Would there not be a possibility that every day there might be a series of Bills proposed? I hope that it will not be necessary to consider these Bills today, otherwise our hon. Friends from Scotland will be embarrassed. However, these notices of Bills do indicate the extent to which this procedure can be abused and the ordinary business of the House held up.
  Mr. Speaker: Naturally, I considered all that in coming to the conclusion I came to. My experience, both in opposition and on the Government side of the House, is that private Members frequently exercise their ingenuity to get round this particular provision of Government control of expenditure so that they may air subjects which they feel should be discussed. It is a question, I think, of degree, rather than of anything else, whether that becomes such an abuse that the House has to take notice of it. I am reluctant to extend the power of the Chair so as to curb the proper exercise by private Members of such rights as they have under the rules.
  If I may use a metaphor, I will put it this way. I do not think that it is for the referee to change the rules while the game is in progress. It is for that reason I have given the Ruling I have, but all these things depend very largely on the common sense of the House, and I think I can leave it safely in hon. Members hands not to abuse the spirit of our ancient constitution.
  Mr. Mitchison: Mr. Speaker, while for myself accepting respectfully your decision on a matter of procedure, and, indeed, regarding it, if I may say so, as inevitable in view of past decisions, may I take it that it does to some extent depend on the language of the Finance Act, 1946, which left this Fund for use for a specific purpose and
  "for such other purposes as Parliament may hereafter determine"
  —a form of words which would not apply to and does not exist in the case of the National Insurance Fund and Industrial Injuries Fund?
  Mr. Speaker: The Ruling I have given today is limited entirely to the matter which was raised last Wednesday. I should not like to go beyond that today.
  Mr. Blackburn: May I add to what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison)? We all appreciate, Mr. Speaker, the very careful consideration which you have given to this problem, but I should like to put to you a further thought. I know you appreciate the danger that your Ruling may mean for the procedure of the House. I do not think it is right that an hon. Member should try to abuse the rules in this way. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is quite correct that in this instance, relating to this Fund, the Queen's Recommendation is not required because it is not drawn upon the Consolidated Fund, nor is it supplied from money to be provided by Parliament. However, I think you will agree that funds are set up for definite and specific purposes, and that there ought, therefore, to be continuity in the proceedings of this House.
  We ought to take note of what has gone before. Quite recently, some Members of the House, because they were not quite certain of the meaning of an Act of 1770, decided that it should be referred for decision to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. However, we know quite definitely what was in the mind of Parliament in 1946, and although the words of Section 48 of the Finance Act, 1946, are, as you say,
  "for such other purposes as Parliament may hereafter determine"
  I think that every hon. Member will agree that Parliament had in mind purposes similar to the purpose of the 1946 Act. When the Government, in 1953, through the Historic and Ancient Monuments Bill, raided the Fund, it was done by Ministers of the Crown and it was done for a purpose which was similar to that of the Finance Act, 1946.
  Mr. Speaker: I thought I mentioned all that. I remain of the opinion that these are matters which should be discussed on the merits of the Bill. I do not think that there is any procedural bar—and that is all I am concerned with—to the hon. Member proceeding with his Bill.
  Mr. Fernyhough: You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that it was because I was seeking information that there arose the little debate last week. I was then in some doubt and I am still in some doubt. In your Ruling you stated that you hoped
  212
  that in future hon. Members would not infringe the spirit of the Standing Orders. I want to know who is going to interpret, who will judge whether the spirit is being infringed. Suppose, for instance, that on the first Wednesday after we reassemble after the Christmas Recess I seek to bring in a Bill on the lines of the one about which I asked you last Wednesday, when I asked you whether it would be in order. Who will then determine whether my Bill infringes the spirit? If my Bill were to be infringing the spirit, how comes it that the Bill of the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) does not also infringe the spirit of the Standing Orders?
  Mr. Speaker: I did not put what I said about infringing the spirit of the Standing Orders on a par with my decision on the procedure. What I mean to say is this: that if the rules of the House are used in a way which makes it inconvenient for the rest of the House then the House probably will take some action about it. That is what happens. Majorities can generally look after themselves in the House quite well, but as the rules stand I think it was my duty to find the Bill in order. The hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) cannot expect me to give an advance decision upon any future action which he may take, or upon any Bill which he may seek to introduce.

BILLS PRESENTED
  CAYMAN ISLANDS AND TURKS AND CAICOS ISLANDS
  Bill to separate the Turks and Caicos Islands from the colony of Jamaica and to make fresh provision for the government of those Islands and of the Cayman Islands, presented by Mr. Lennox-Boyd; supported by Mr. Profumo and Mr. Alport; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Thursday and to be printed. [Bill 48.]

  OPENCAST COAL
  Bill to make provision with respect to the working of coal by opencast operations, including provision for the compulsory acquisition by the National Coal Board of rights over land and provision for the payment of compensation in connection therewith; to provide for adjustments between landlords and tenants, and

  213
  in respect of mortgages, in consequence of the authorisation of such operations or of the acquisition by the Board of such rights over land; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, presented by Mr. Maudling; supported by Mr. John Maclay, Mr. Heathcoat Amory, Mr. Henry Brooke, and Mr. Renton; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Thursday and to be printed. [Bill 49.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Motion made, and Question put:—
That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]
The House divided: Ayes 236, Noes 192.

Division No. 21.]

AYES

[3.50 p.m.

Agnew, Sir Peter

Fort, R.

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Aitken, W. T.

Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

Langford-Holt, J. A.

Alport, C. J. M.

Fraser, Sir Ian (M'ombe & Lonsdale)

Leather, E. H. C.

Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

Freeth, Denzil

Leavey, J. A.

Arbuthnot, John

Gammans, Lady

Leburn, W. G.

Ashton, H.

Garner-Evans, E. H.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Atkins, H. E.

George, J. C. (Pollock)

Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

Gibson-Watt, D.

Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

Baldwin, A. E.

Glover, D.

Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

Balniel, Lord

Glyn, Col. Richard H.

Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

Barlow, Sir John

Godber, J. B.

Linstead, Sir H. N.

Barter, John

Goodhart, Philip

Llewellyn, D. T.

Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

Gough, C. F. H.

Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

Gower, H. R.

Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

Bennett, Dr. Reginald

Graham, Sir Fergus

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

Grant, W. (Woodside)

McAdden, S. J.

Bidgood, J. C.

Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

Macdonald, Sir Peter

Biggs-Davison, J. A.

Green, A.

Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

Bingham, R. M.

Gresham Cooke, R.

McKibbin, Alan

Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

Bishop, F. P.

Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Black, C. W.

Gurden, Harold

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

Body, R. F.

Hall, John (Wycombe)

MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

Boothby, Sir Robert

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

Bossom, Sir Alfred

Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

Maddan, Martin

Boyle, Sir Edward

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

Brooman-White, R. C.

Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Markham, Major Sir Frank

Butcher, Sir Herbert

Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

Marlowe, A. A. H.

Butler, Rt.Hn.R.A. (Saffron Walden)

Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

Marshall, Douglas

Gary, Sir Robert

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Mathew, R.

Channon, Sir Henry

Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

Chichester-Clark, R.

Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

Mawby, R. L.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

Maydon, Lt.-Comdr, S. L. C.

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

Cole, Norman

Hirst, Geoffrey

Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

Hobson,John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

Moore, Sir Thomas

Cooke, Robert

Holland-Martin, C. J.

Morrison, John (Salisbury)

Cooper, A. E.

Hornby, R. P.

Nabarro, G. D. N.

Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

Nicholls, Harmar

Corfield, Capt. F. V.

Horobin, Sir Ian

Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

Oakshott, H. D.

Cunningham, Knox

Hulbert, Sir Norman

O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim,N.)

Currie, G. B. H.

Hurd, A. R.

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

Davidson, Viscountess

Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)

Page, R. G.

D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

Deedes, W. F.

Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.)

Partridge, E.

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Hyde, Montgomery

Peel, W. J.

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

Peyton, J. W. W.

Doughty, C. J. A.

Iremonger, T. L.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Drayson, G. B.

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

du Cann, E. D. L.

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Pitman, I. J.

Duncan, Sir James

Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Pott, H. P.

Duthie, W. S.

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Powell, J. Enoch

Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. (Kelvingrove)

Joseph, Sir Keith

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Elliott, R.W. (Newcastle upon Tyne, N)

Kaberry, D.

Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

Keegan, D.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

Errington, Sir Eric

Kerby, Capt. H. B.

Profumo, J. D.

Farey-Jones, F. W.

Kerr, Sir Hamilton

Rawlinson, Peter

Fell, A.

Kershaw, J. A.

Redmayne, M.

Finlay, Graeme

Kirk, P. M.

Remnant, Hon. P.

Fisher, Nigel

Lagden, G. W.

Renton, D. L. M.

Fletcher-Cooke, C.

Lambert, Hon. G.

Ridsdale, J. E.

Robertson, Sir David

Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

Wall, Major Patrick

Roper, Sir Harold

Teeling, W.

Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

Temple, John M.

Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

Sharples, R. C.

Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

Webbe, Sir H.

Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

Whitelaw, W. S. I.

Spearman, Sir Alexander

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

Speir, R. M.

Thompson, Lt.-Cmdr.R. (Croydon,S.)

Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

Wills, G. (Bridgwater)

Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

Wood, Hon. R.

Stevens, Geoffrey

Tilney, John (Wavertree)

Woollam, John Victor

Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H

Yates, William (The Wrekin)

Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Storey, S.

Vane, W. M. F.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

Summers, Sir Spencer

Vickers, Miss Joan

Mr. Barber and Mr. Bryan

Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

NOES

Ainsley, J. W.

Healey, Denis

Pentland, N.

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

Plummer, Sir Leslie

Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Popplewell, E.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

Prentice, R. E.

Awbery, S. S.

Holman, P.

Probert, A. R.

Baird, J.

Holmes, Horace

Randall, H. E.

Balfour, A.

Holt, A. F.

Rankin, John

Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

Redhead, E. C.

Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

Hoy, J. H.

Reeves, J.

Beswick, Frank

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Blackburn, F.

Hunter, A. E.

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Blenkinsop, A.

Hynd, H. (Accrington)

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

Blyton, W. R.

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

Boardman, H.

Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

Ross, William

Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

Royle, C.

Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W)

Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

Jeger, George (Goole)

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Bowles, F. G.

Jeger, Mrs. Lena (Holbn & St.Pncs,S.)

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Boyd, T. C.

Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

Brockway, A. F.

Johnson, James (Rugby)

Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield)

Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

Burton, Miss F. E.

Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

Snow, J. W.

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Sorensen, R. W.

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Soskice. Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Champion, A. J.

King, Dr. H. M.

Sparks, J. A.

Chapman, W. D.

Lawson, G. M.

Steele, T.

Chetwynd, G. R.

Logan, D. G.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

Clunie, J.

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Stonehouse, John

Coldrick, W.

McGhee, H. G.

Stones, W. (Consett)

Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

McInnes, J.

Stross,Dr.Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Swingler, S. T.

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

McLeavy, Frank

Sylvester, G. O.

Cronin, J. D.

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Crossman, R. H. S.

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Darling, George (Hillsborough)

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Davies,Rt.Hn.Clement(Montgomery)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

Thornton, E.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

Mann, Mrs. Jean

Tomney, F.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

Usborne, H. C

Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

Mason, Roy

Wade, D. W.

Deer, G.

Mellish, R. J.

Warbey, W. N.

Diamond, John

Messer, Sir F.

Watkins, T. E.

Dodds, N. N.

Mitchison, G. R.

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

Monslow, W.

West, D. G.

Dye, S.

Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

Wheeldon, W. E.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Morrison, Rt.Hn. Herbert (Lewis'm,S.)

White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

Edelman, M.

Mort, D. L.

White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)

Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

Moss, R.

Wigg, George

Evans, Albert (Islingon, S.W.)

Moyle, A.

Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

Fernyhough, E.

Mulley, F. W.

Willey, Frederick

Finch, H. J.

Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

Fletcher, Eric

Oliver, G. H.

Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Oram, A. E.

Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

Orbach, M.

Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

Grey, C. F.

Owen, W. J.

Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

Padley, W. E

Winterbottom, Richard

Griffiths, William (Exchange)

Paget, R. T.

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Grimond, J.

Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

Woof, R. E.

Hale, Leslie

Pargiter, G. A.

Yates, V. (Ladywood)

Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Parker, J.

Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

Hamilton, W. W.

Parkin, B. T.

Zilliacus, K.

Hannan, W.

Paton, John

Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

Pearson, A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Hayman, F. H.

Peart, T. F.

Mr. Short and Mr. J. T. Price

NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (AMENDMENT)
4.0 p.m.
Mr. John Hall: I May I begin. Mr. Speaker, by thanking you for the very considerable trouble to which you went in arriving at the very interesting Ruling that you gave a short time ago. I believe that it is said of the elder Pitt that he once addressed Mr. Speaker of his day as "Dear Sir". He must have done that after hearing a Ruling very similar to yours.
When I first tried to introduce the Bill, it was my intention to try to remedy a long-standing injustice which prevented private patients obtaining their medicines and appliances under the same conditions as those ruling for State registered patients, and above all, to guard against what I consider would be a threat to the standards of medicine if private practice disappeared altogether. I am very grateful to right hon. and hon. Members opposite for having helped me to gain the maximum publicity for my argument and my case and for having made it quite clear that, in their view, we should aim at a State monopoly in medicine.
Mr. William Hamilton: Move the Bill.
Mr. Hall: Although I consider the principle behind the Bill of the utmost importance, nevertheless, in view of the large number of Motions on the Order Paper, which have been put down by hon. Members who had much more confidence in my judgment as to the correctness of the procedure than I had myself and also in anticipating your Ruling, Mr. Speaker; in view of that long list of Bills, which, if debated, would hold up Government business, and because I am not prepared to see my Bill used for that purpose, on the understanding that my right can be safeguarded to deploy my arguments on another occasion in this or in some other way, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member has not moved a Motion. Therefore, there is nothing to withdraw.
4.3 p.m.
Mr. G. R. Mitchison: I do not believe that if the elder Pitt had been guilty of the same doubtful use of the procedure of the House and had found himself obliged to withdraw a Motion he would have done otherwise than withdrawn it quite simply, in which case he would have had much more of the sympathy of the House than has the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall). However, I have consulted my right hon. Friends and my hon. Friends whose Motions for Bills appear on the Order Paper after that of the hon. Member for Wycombe. I have had consultations with all of them except one, whom I was unable to find, and they tell me that in these circumstances, the hon. Member for Wycombe having withdrawn his Motion, they would not wish to move theirs.
My hon. Friends, however, would reserve their right, as the hon. Member for Wycombe has done, to put forward similar Motions on some other occasion, and particularly so in the case of the first of my hon. Friend's Motions on the Order Paper. It is that in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop), relating to National Parks, where my hon. Friend has a very good case and a procedural grievance of some standing. I might, however, make one exception. I regret that my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras. North (Mr. K. Robinson) has inadvertently had twins and that he might have to find another father in the next occasion for one of his offspring.
Mr. Speaker: Will the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) give me the name of the hon. Member whose consent to the withdrawal of a Motion he has not obtained?
Mr. Mitchison: It is my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu).
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Albu. …
The Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND MISCELLANEOUS FINANCIAL PROVISIONS (SCOTLAND) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  4.5 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The main object of this Bill, of course, is to give effect to the proposals contained in the White Paper on Scottish Local Government Finance, which was debated in the House last July. For many years there has been a lot of talk about the declining powers of local authorities. The usual analysis, I believe, has been that while their duties are heavy their powers of local decision have progressively been taken from them, largely because of the high proportion of their revenue which comes from the central Government for specific purposes and, therefore, with specific controls attached.
  I believe there is general agreement that this process has not been in the best interests of local government. The underlying purpose of this Bill is to give local authorities more independence and, as a very important consequence, to encourage local electors to take a greater interest in local government affairs. The principal measures proposed towards this end are the replacement of a number of specific grants by a single general grant and the rerating of industry to 50 per cent.
  Before examining these measures in detail it is worth looking at the position as it is today. At present, roughly two-thirds of the total amount of Government assistance is given in the form of percentage grants. On the one hand, the local authority spends the money knowing that it will not have to foot the whole bill; a fixed percentage of whatever it spends on the most important services will automatically be paid by the Exchequer. On the other hand, the Government, on the taxpayers' behalf, has to keep a vigilant check on local authorities' spending; this in itself can lead to frustration, if not to friction. Each specific grant carries with it its own purse string. There are now too many of these, and there is real danger of their strangling the life out of local government.
  220
  A further difficulty with which local treasurers and chamberlains are faced is that there is at present no logical justification for the way in which specific grants are now available. The grants came into being from time to time because of particular needs, but they do not apply to all services. For example, a local authority may be faced with heavy expense on a much needed service which attracts no direct grant. Water supplies in many areas are an example. If, however, it were considering spending money on another project which may be less essential, but which at present attracts a large percentage grant, there is a grave temptation to give priority to that project.
  Particular services may look more attractive to some local authorities not for their intrinsic merit, but because they rank for a high rate of Exchequer grant. In short, it cannot be healthy when the percentage of grant determines whether a particular project is to proceed. Excessive reliance on ad hoc grants clearly has what I think one can call a corrosive influence on local authorities' power of decision.
  Nowadays, I feel that members of town and county councils have too little say in spending their own revenues. In some cases they feel that they are merely agents for the central Departments and this does not encourage people to take a full and proper interest in local government affairs. This is not mere guesswork; the numbers voting at local elections in Scotland, as every hon. Member knows, have shown a continuous decline since the war, and there is no sign that this decline has as yet been arrested. Faced with this situation—which must cause anxiety to any Government—there are only two possible solutions.
  The first is to do away with the whole paraphernalia of local government and run all services through the central Departments, or at least to treat local authorities merely as the agents of the central Government. The Government are not prepared to contemplate such a solution. The alternative is to give local government some form of blood transfusion in the hope that an added sense of purpose and responsibility will encourage local councillors and local electors alike to tackle local affairs with even greater vigour than at present.
  With these objectives in mind, the Government propose, in the first place,

  221
  that industry should be rerated to 50 per cent., and that local authorities should thus be enabled to raise a bigger proportion of their revenue from local sources. I appreciate that this proposal has met with two kinds of criticism; on the one hand, from those who consider that industry is already bearing its fair share of the rates; and, on the other, from those who consider that industry should no longer have any preferential treatment. We agree that the percentage of derating introduced in 1929, at the time of a severe economic depression, is inappropriate in the entirely different economic circumstances of today. We feel, however, that the complete abolition of derating would cause too large an increase in industry's overheads at a time when they are faced with such severe competition in overseas markets.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Would the right hon. Gentleman substantiate that by giving us specific figures? We had the same difficulty with the Minister of Housing and Local Government. He was unable to give us figures, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can go one better?
  Mr. Maclay: I have not got the figures with me, but the hon. Gentleman will know that they are not difficult to work out. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman could quarrel with my statement that industry is faced with extremely severe competition throughout the world today. Our conclusion is that the best solution at the present time is to rerate to 50 per cent., and this is the proposal contained in the Bill. On 1956–57 figures, it will make an additional rate revenue of about £2·3 million available to local authorities in Scotland.
  To come now to the grants system—
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: Before the Minister leaves that point, if it is true, as I would accept, that industry is facing a difficult time with international competition, why are we rerating at all? Is it not simply a matter of degree in assessment, and is it not true, as we were told previously, that it amounts to less than ½ per cent. of the cost of industry?
  Mr. Maclay: I have not got the figure the hon. Gentleman mentions, but it is a question of judgment and degree, and this is our judgment as to what is right at the moment. That is the answer.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order, order. I hope that as far as possible these matters will be put in consecutive speeches at the end of the Minister's speech. They are pure argument. If we do not delay speeches by endless interventions, there ought to be time for every hon. Member who wishes to speak to get a hearing.
  Mr. William Ross: On facts and figures, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman said that this would give local authorities an additional £2·3 million. Is that true? Is that the net figure?
  Mr. Maclay: If the hon. Gentleman will wait for me to continue my speech, he will find that the point is fully dealt with later.
  I said that this was an additional rate revenue of £2·3 million as distinct from revenue from general grant. This point is picked up later in my speech to explain the actual figure received by local authorities. The net gain is £750,000. My point is correct as I stated it—this is an additional rate revenue as distinct from general grant.
  To come now to the grants system. The keystone of the structure of Exchequer aid will, in future, be a single general grant, although percentage grants will be retained where it is clear that they cannot, for good reasons—technical or otherwise—be replaced by the general grant. The general grant will replace the grants in aid of the expenditure set out in the First Schedule to the Bill; they were also summarised in paragraph 5 of the White Paper, and the most important of these is, of course, education. The distribution to individual local authorities will not be based on local expenditure; it will be calculated by reference to objective factors outside the control of the individual local authority but related to the needs of the area.
  Perhaps it would be helpful if I gave an example of what I mean by "objective factors". In Table 1 in the Second Schedule we have a column of figures related to numbers of pupils per mile of road. The effect of this is that in sparsely populated counties, where there are long miles of road over which pupils have to travel to school, an addition is made to the weighted population for purposes of the distribution of the grant. This

  223
  addition may be as much as 50 per cent. In this way the distribution of the grant will reflect the additional cost in which the education authority is inevitably involved in sparsely populated areas. This distribution of the grant will also have the incidental merit of helping areas which will receive little or no direct advantage from the rerating of industry. The low rating resources of such areas are, of course, also made up through the equalisation grant.
  The total general grant will be fixed in advance for periods of not less than two years at a time, but the grant will not necessarily be the same for each year of a period. The amounts for 1959–60 and 1960–61, for example, will be determined in the late autumn of 1958. The amounts will be prescribed in an Order which will be laid before Parliament.
  The local authority associations must be consulted before the grant for each period is fixed. Its amount will be determined by reference to the latest information regarding the rate of expenditure on the relevant services, the level of prices, costs and remuneration, any probable change in the demand for the services which is common to the country as a whole, the need for development of the services and, at the same time, the general state of the economy as determining the amount of improvement which can properly be secured during the period. This will provide an orderly way of assessing the progress of local authority services and the help being given to those services from the Exchequer.
  Paragraph 7 of the White Paper said that the Government would have regard to these considerations when fixing the grant, and we are required to do so by Clause 2 of the Bill. There seems, however, to be some impression that the Government propose to use the general grant to reduce the local authorities' income. This may perhaps have been caused by misreading paragraphs 17 and 18 of the White Paper, but the reduction there referred to is that which is compensated for by the additional revenue which, as I have already described, local authorities will get from the rerating of industry out of which they show a profit. In fact, it is estimated that the proposals
  224
  as a whole—it is very important that this should be appreciated everywhere—will give Scottish local authorities, on 1956–57 figures, a net gain of £750,000 a year.
  This will be their share of the additional revenue from rates on industry. Here I come to the point raised by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), and I will go over it again to prevent misunderstanding. As already explained the gross addition is approximately £2·3 million. Against this, however, must be set the loss in tax revenue which amounts to about one-half and which must be made good to the Treasury. Of the other half of the additional net revenue, two-thirds will be retained by the ratepayers, that is, £750,000, and one-third by the taxpayers. The House will recall that in deciding to allow local authorities to gain an additional £750,000 a year the Government have had particularly in mind that there are difficulties inherent in changing from specific grants to a general grant. The grant for the first period will also include a refund to the local authorities of the minor grants which will be discontinued—they are in Clause 4—and an addition to offset any changes that the proposals may cause to the level of the Exchequer equalisation grant. The amount of grant so arrived at for the first period will be the starting point for the settling of the grants for all subsequent periods.
  I should like to deal now with the two main criticisms of these proposals which appear to have been made so far. First, it is alleged that local authorities are being asked to pay too high a price for their freedom and that the general grant, fixed for a number of years in advance, will, in times of inflation, leave them worse off than they are now. This criticism, however, takes no account of the procedure laid down in Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill for fixing the totals at the beginning of the grant period having regard to the various factors which are explicitly set out in Clause 2. No clearer undertaking could have been given.
  We have also made provision for the exceptional case where there is a sudden rise in costs of such magnitude that local authorities cannot be expected to bear it in full until the next general grant order is laid. In that case there will be an interim review. In short, Clause 2 is a

  225
  straightforward statement of the Government's intention and should serve to allay any fears which were expressed before the publication of the Bill.
  The second main criticism, which has come mainly from those concerned with education, has been that in future local authorities will be able to develop a particular service, such as education, only at the expense of other services, that there will be competition between services, and that education will suffer. The suggestion that certain services are bound to be unjustly treated under the general grant system is really a vote of no confidence in local government.
  To suggest that local authorities are not able to allocate their expenditure in accordance with local needs is to suggest that in their present form they should be brought to an end. That is not our view. We have given assurances on more than one occasion that we regard education as an expanding service and we will ensure that the new financial independence given to local authorities will not be exercised in such a way as to undermine essential educational provision or to prevent the proper development of education services. In this connection, I should mention the powers contained in Clause 3, which enable the Secretary of State to fix standards and to withhold the grant where these standards are not achieved.
  As for education in particular, the Secretary of State's ultimate power to require an education authority to fulfil its duties under the Education Acts will remain as at present in the power given by Section 66 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946. Under that Section an education authority may be required to discharge any duty. If it does not do so the Secretary of State may discharge the duty himself and recover the expenses, or the court may be asked to order specific performance.
  These powers have never been used in the past—they have always existed—and there is no reason to think that they will have to be used in the future under the general grant.
  Mr. J. Grimond: In my constituency, we are troubled no: only by many miles of roads but by many miles of sea which add considerably to our expenses. Would the
  226
  Minister say—not now but at some point—whether any provisions are made for this, because it is a point which is worrying local authorities.
  Mr. Maclay: I am aware of the amount of sea surrounding the hon. Member's constituency.
  I will finish dealing with the point about powers which, if necessary, can be used for the maintenance of educational standards. I repeat that it has not been necessary to use them in the past and I do not think that it will be necessary to use them in the future, because I have complete confidence in local authorities doing their work in the best possible way.
  I turn now to the Bill itself, which consists of four parts and five Schedules. Part I deals with the introduction of the general grant; Part II with the rerating of industry; Part III with miscellaneous financial provisions, which have been discussed with the local authority associations; and Part IV contains a number of supplementary and general provisions.
  Clause 1 provides that from 16th May, 1959, county and town councils will receive a general grant in place of the specific grants for education, health services, fire, child care and certain other services described in the First Schedule. These were all mentioned in paragraph 5 of the White Paper. The annual aggregate of the grant for Scotland, which is to be fixed for a period of two or more years, will be distributed in accordance with the formula set out in the Second Schedule. This is not the same formula as is proposed for England and Wales. I have already given one example of how it will work. As I said during the debate on the White Paper:
  "The formula which we propose to use in Scotland was worked out by a joint committee of officials of the local authorities appointed by the local authority associations, and officers of my Department: and I am satisfied that it is the best which can be devised in Scottish circumstances."—[OFFICIAT RFPORT, 30th July, 1957 Vol. 574, c. 1079–80.]
  I should add that the valuable contribution which the local authority officials made to the Working Party's deliberations in no way committed the local authorities. I am, of course, aware of the attitude of the associations to the Bill. We are confident, however, that the formula in the Second Schedule will stand up to scrutiny.

  227
  Clause 1 (3) and the Third Schedule provide for adjustments of the general grant to give effect to the pooling of expenditure on certain items in some of the services covered by the general grant. Clause 2, which I have already described, sets out the considerations to be taken into account in fixing the general grant for any period and allows for an interim review in exceptional circumstances. Clause 3 empowers the Secretary of State to prescribe standards of administration for the relevant services and provides a sanction—on the lines of that already in existence for the purposes of Exchequer equalisation grant—enabling him, subject to the approval of this House, to reduce the general grant where there has been a failure to maintain reasonable standards.
  Clause 4 provides for the discontinuance of certain minor grants. As they are not very likely to be mentioned again. I should perhaps record that they are those for salaries of highway engineers and surveyors, portable wheel weighers, rodent control and compensation for loss of fees for the licensing of hackney carriages. As I have said, allowance for these will be made in the general grant. Clause 5 provides for the abolition of the Education (Scotland) Fund. This is a corollary to the introduction of the general grant. The Fund is used at present to hold the education grant for Scotland, which is, broadly speaking, 11/80ths of that for England and Wales. These arrangements will be superseded by the general grant and the Fund will no longer be required. Certain other payments now made out of the Fund, such as grants to central institutions and for the training of teachers, will be met from 1959–60 out of voted moneys.
  I should like to dwell for a moment on the effect of the Bill on the Goschen formula. The present application of Goschen to the English education grant will, of course, be reflected in the first aggregate total of the general grant. This aggregate will be used as a foundation on which to calculate the general grant in future years. Once the general grant is in operation, however, there will be no identifiable English grant in aid of education to which the Goschen fraction could be applied. It is also very important to note that if we were to calculate
  228
  the whole of the Scottish general gram on the basis of the Goschen fraction, the result, so far as I have been able to estimate—it is a fairly complicated operation—would be to make Scotland worse off to the extent of just over £1m. a year.
  Clause 6 and the Fourth Schedule provide for statutory amendments consequential on the introduction of the general grant and on the changes affecting the equalisation grant system proposed in the Local Government Bill for England and Wales. What follows is rather technical—I apologise to the House for this—but I feel that it is necessary to have it on the record.
  The present arrangements for the calculation of the total amount of the Exchequer equalisation grant payable to local authorities in Scotland are set out in the Sixth Schedule to the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1956. This Schedule is designed to provide an equalisation grant which would leave Scotland with the same rate burden per head of actual population as would have to be carried in England and Wales outside London if the expenditure per head of weighted population were also the same.
  Part I of the English Bill, however, contains certain amendments to the English equalisation grant system which are not being extended to Scotland at present. As there has been Scottish legislation on this subject in both 1954 and 1956, it is proposed that the Scottish arrangements for distributing the equalisation grant should be altered as little as possible in advance of revaluation in 1961. The problem therefore is to secure that Scotland continues to receive comparable treatment, in spite of the amendments contained in the English Bill, until there is a further opportunity to review the equalisation grant arrangements in Scotland. This is secured by the amendments of the Acts of 1954 and 1956 contained in Part II of the Fourth Schedule.
  These provisions are, however, of a temporary nature. There must in terms of the Act of 1956 be further legislation to deal with the equalisation grant arrangements in Scotland before 1963, and the intention is to review them comprehensively as soon as the outcome of revaluation in 1961 is known,
  Clause 7 rerates industry from 25 to 50 per cent. of net annual value. Since

  229
  rateable values in general are frozen under the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1956, it also provides that there should be no appeal against the altered value in the valuation roll. The other points of detail in this Clause are more appropriate for the Committee stage, as are two minor changes in the 1956 Act proposed in Clauses 8 and 9.
  It might be convenient at this stage to mention the transitional arrangements. Since the changes proposed cannot take place without causing some gains and losses to individual authorities. Clause 15 is designed to spread their effect over a period of not more than six years. Any increase in the rate burden of a local authority directly caused by the new grant system will be made up in full in the first year, up to 90 per cent. in the second, and on a diminishing scale thereafter from the gains of other authorities.
  Most of the changes proposed in Part III of the Bill lime been discussed with, or asked for, by the local authorities.
  Mr. E. G. Willis: Does that include the proposal to make permanent legislation requiring the Government to give consent to local government capital expenditure?
  Mr. Maclay: "Discussed with". I would not go further than that. It was certainly not asked for. Consultation is a very important matter in all our researches.
  Clause 10 raises to the product of a rate of 1s. in the £ of rateable value or standard rateable value, whichever is the higher, the limit of expenditure by town councils on the provision of halls and certain other buildings. The existing 3d. rate limit, which was in force as far back as 1892, is now clearly out of date.
  Clause 11—I will come to this now—makes permanent the Secretary of State's control over borrowing by Scottish local authorities for capital purposes. The present control was introduced in 1939 by the Defence Regulations and has been continued by Section 4 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1951, and by successive Expiring Laws Continuance Acts, the most recent of which has recently been considered by this House. The Government have no doubt that under modern economic conditions control must remain for an indefinite period
  230
  and should not continue to rest on temporary legislation.
  Mr. James McInnes: Do the Government still hold that view in respect of new expenditure which is not grant-aided?
  Mr. Maclay: It is in force at present.
  Clause 12 increases the maximum period for which local authorities may borrow for certain purposes. Clause 13, which corresponds to Clause 50 in the English Bill, extends the range of local authority securities which are trustee investments. Clause 14 gives the Secretary of State power to increase by regulation fees payable to the Registrar-General and to local authorities for searches and certificates under the Marriage and Registration Acts. The present fees are long out-of-date. I think that hon. Members will agree that a number of these small matters that I have mentioned are welcome to local authorities. The remaining clauses are formal and the House may agree that they need not he considered in detail at this stage.
  I return now to my original theme. We propose, by the Bill, to increase the independence of local authorities. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I have listened to myself very carefully and the whole principle of what is being done is to increase the freedom of local authorities in deciding how to spend their money.
  Mr. Willis: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. He said exactly the same thing in July. He said then that he had set up a committee to see how best this could be done. It would be more reassuring to us, after five months, if he could tell us the ways by which it can be done.
  Mr. Maclay: That committee is still working. It has a very wide range of things to cover on how to get relaxation of controls. Hon. Members know a lot about putting controls on and we are doing our best to take some off. I was coming to the particular point which the hon. Gentleman raised. We have undertaken to carry out a fresh review of the relationships between the central Departments and the local authorities.
  The purpose of this review, which is now proceeding, is to ascertain whether

  231
  existing procedures can be further simplified to give all local authorities more discretion in the use of their resources. I say "all", because it does not apply just to particular grants changed over from an ad hoc to a general grant. The Committee has a big job to cope with. I assure the House that there is nothing sinister in this Bill. If the intention had been to reduce local authorities' income it could easily have been achieved by scaling down the ad hoc grants, and there would have been no need to introduce a general grant and a distribution formula.
  In our view, the action taken by an individual local authority in deciding how to use the general grant is just as important to the area it serves as the action taken by the central Government in fixing the global sum. In future, we envisage that local authorities, when debating the programmes put forward by their various committees, will know in advance how much is available by way of Exchequer aid. It will, therefore, rest with them to decide which projects are most worth while and will bring most good to their areas. We are giving local authorities more discretion to use their own revenues as they think best, whether from the rates or from the general grant. We are convinced that this must result in more effective local administration and revival of interest in all the work of local authorities. This is the end which, I believe, all responsible persons desire, and it is with confidence that I commend the Bill to the House.
  4.37 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Johnston: There are two views about this Bill—that of the Government and that of all local authorities, all associations interested in education and all independent local authorities. That, of course, does not necessarily mean that the Governments' view on the Bill, or that the Bill itself, is wrong. It does, however, cast a shade of doubt upon the protestations of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State that this is a Bill to increase the independence of local authorities, that it is a Bill which will revive interest in local elections and make persons more interested in the work of local authorities generally.
  232
  If the Bill had been, as the right hon. Gentleman seems to think it is, such a great liberating Measure, a Measure that would strike off the shackles which have so long bound local authorities, I should have expected a hosanna of praise from every local authority in the country. He has not got that. He has got no praise whatsoever. Every independent local authority has criticised him.
  Sir Ian Clark Hutchison: Edinburgh supports him.
  Mr. Johnston: The hon. Member missed my qualifying adjective, "independent" local authority. I have always regarded the Edinburgh Corporation as having very much the same status as the National Liberal Party—a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Government.
  Sir James Henderson-Stewart: The hon. and learned Member is talking about something of which he knows nothing. He is talking nonsense.
  Mr. Johnston: I confess that for the moment I have forgotten that the hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) was a member of that Party. From his conduct in the House he displayed the characteristic of a typical Tory to such an extent that I thought that he must be a member of that party. If I offend him by suggesting that he has the characteristics of a typical Tory. I withdraw my remark.
  I agree with the object of the Bill, as put forward so eloquently by the Secretary of State. What I disagree with is his method. It will not attain the object. We are all conscious of the fact that for very many years we have not had local government in Scotland; we have had local administration. Local authorities have been concerned with the application and local administration of plans which have been settled by Government and Parliament, not only in broad outline but in detail. For example, in the matter of education no local authority has any decision as to the standard of schooling, how many years a child shall remain at school, and what amount shall be paid to teachers. It has no say in education or in any other local service. It is all laid down in the most meticulous detail either by Parliament or by way of regulations made by the Secretary of State.

  233
  This distinction between local administration of Government Measures and local government proper is bad. We should do much better to have either proper local government or Government Measures administered not by local authorities but by the Government. Of those two alternatives, I prefer the first. Accordingly, I accept the right hon. Gentleman's thesis that it is advisable to put back some interest into local government.
  Certain requirements are necessary for that. First, we must give back certain powers to local government. But there is only one minor provision in the Bill which gives local government any power, and that is Clause 10, which allows a local authority to spend 1s. instead of 3d. on town halls. That is the only extension of local authority powers. The Bill does away with none of the obligations which local authorities have—and they have very many. It does away with none of the powers which the Secretary of State has to impose his will upon local authorities if they fail to measure up to the standard which he demands. Indeed, as he has so pointedly made clear to the House. Clause 3 gives him further powers.
  So long as Parliament insists upon giving detailed orders to local authorities, and so long as the default powers of the Secretary of State are so extensive, we cannot possibly have proper local government. When I use the phrase "local government" I am distinguishing it from the mere local administration of Governmental duties. Although this may not be the appropriate moment to go into details, it is appropriate to say that we should think again about local government in its entirety.
  There are other requirements. It is not only necessary to remove some duties from local government and to give it more powers; it is also necessary for local government to have some finance. Its dependence upon an outmoded method of financing itself is wrong. It was more than thirty years ago that a committee presided over by the first Lord Dunedin drew pointed attention to the inequalities and the inequity of the method of raising local finance by rates. The Sorn Committee drew pointed attention to the fact that local government financed by rates was breaking down, and said that that system of local government finance was
  234
  becoming overloaded. Since the present Government came into office increased burdens have been laid upon local authorities—some imposed by Statute and others by general Government policy.
  I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman noticed two very pertinent articles in the Scotsman published yesterday and today. The first concerned the difficulties which local authorities were having in raising capital sums—particularly the difficulties which the larger ones had in having to join the queue on the money market and the difficulties which the smaller ones had in finding money either from the market or from the Public Works Loan Board—and the second referred to the enormous burden which the very high interest rates now exigible were placing upon local authorities. We are now placing an intolerable burden upon ratepayers. It is intolerable, because the demand for rates depends entirely upon the assessed value of a house or industrial premises, and the variation in that assessed value does not compare to the variation of incomes as between one section of the community and another.
  I believe that it was the Dunedin Committee which said, in broad terms, that it recognised that those in receipt of more than a very small level of income paid, by way of rates, a disproportionately small amount in support of local projects. We know that that is so from our own experience. I would say that the major block of dwelling-houses in Scotland is rated at between £20 and £45. That major block may be inhabited by persons with widely diverging incomes, but if they live in houses of the same value they will have to pay the same rates. If we are to have proper local government, as distinct from local administration, we must reconsider our system of local finance.
  I am aware that the White Paper says that this has been done, and that a satisfactory way has not been found of raising local revenue other than by way of rates. I do not know what inquiry was made by the Departmental Committee, but I know that within the last few years an inquiry was undertaken on the Continent of Europe to ascertain the methods of local finance which operated there, and that that inquiry showed that numerous ways of raising local finance existed in various

  235
  countries. I am also aware that the Dunedin Committee said, in the most emphatic terms, that the Board of Inland Revenue should be told to work out a system of local Income Tax. It should not be asked what are the objections to it. Lord Dunedin said that the Board must be told to work it out and that the objections would, or would not, prove themselves.
  As I said, the Bill in no way deals with the powers of the local authorities, other than to restrict them in certain particulars with which I will deal in a moment. It in no way increases the financial basis of local authorities. The Bill increases, or will tend to increase, the burden placed upon local ratepayers, and in this way. There will be a block grant. It is true that the block grant distribution depends largely on objective facts and figures, but the fixing of the total of the block grant does not appear, so far as I can see, to depend upon objective features at all. It appears from Clause 2 to depend entirely upon what the Secretary of State thinks is the right figure. Having got the right figure, it may be broken down according to certain objective features.
  Let us take it that the block grant will be fixed for two or three years ahead. It will be distributed according to the formula to local authorities and they will then, according to the Secretary of State, have the power to take independent decision about how to spend that block grant. Is that true? Does any hon. Member really think that it is true? If he does, he has neglected to look at the Statute imposing duties on local authorities. For example, local authorities must provide a certain standard of education. They must provide a certain standard of fire protection, and this, that and the other thing. These are statutory obligations imposed upon all local authorities and to which they must devote the funds they have.
  The scope of local authority "neglect"—if I may use that word—or the scope of local authority ambition, is determined entirely by the funds in their possession and by the over-riding power of the Secretary of State. These services must be provided by local authorities because the Statute says that they must. What moneys local authorities possess must be
  236
  devoted to these services. If not, the Secretary of State will step in and may ultimately bring to bear the sanction of Clause 3 of this Bill, or the provisions in various other mandatory Sections of other Acts.
  I am unable to understand how it can possibly be said that any local authority has any power or any choice in the spending of the cash in its possession either under the block grant or under its general revenue; except that some local authorities may desire to do a little more or a little better than others. In that case, they may rate beyond the block grant. If they desire to do that, the limitation on their power is the rating capacity and the ability of the ratepayers to pay. If they desire to do less, they must face the anger of the Secretary of State and the sanction provided in Clause 3. The room for manoeuvre possessed by any local authority is very small indeed. To suggest that this is a great new concession is unworthy of the Secretary of State.
  Mr. Maclay: The hon. and learned Gentleman is developing my case. It is clear that under these proposals the room for manoeuvre is considerably greater than it has ever been since ad hoc grants have developed to the extent to which they have developed.
  Mr. Johnston: I should like the right hon. Gentleman to develop that and to tell us in what way there would be room for manoeuvre. For example, he stated during the debate on the White Paper on which this Bill was prepared that it would increase the scope of the power of local authorities. He said:
  "The principal freedom to be given to local authorities is a range of choice within the general grant subjects."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th July, 1957 Vol. 574, c. 1089.]
  If that be true, I should have thought that today the Secretary of State would have given us a catalogue of this range of choice. What is this range of choice? Can the right hon. Gentleman give me a dozen items? May I take it from the right hon. Gentleman's refusal to answer that there are not a dozen items in this range of choice? Can the right hon. Gentleman give me half-a-dozen?
  Mr. Maclay: The hon. and learned Gentleman has only to look at the Bill. I am not going through it again. It

  237
  explains that greater responsibility which comes from having a general grant plus the product of their own rerating, instead of a series of ad hoc grants tied to particular purposes with the restriction which that inevitably imposes. There is a whole range of local authority operations to be examined when considering how to make the best use of the total resources.
  Mr. Johnston: The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that he has not answered my question. He says that we should look at the Bill. I have read the Bill on numerous occasions, and today I listened with close attention to what the right hon. Gentleman had to say. I have no reason to believe that a local authority is given a range of choice within the general grant subjects.
  Would it be proper, for example, for a local authority to spend money on fire services which otherwise it would spend on education? Of course it would not. It would be proper to do so only if the local authority was already providing a standard of education satisfactory to the Secretary of State. Is not that so? Of course it is. Only if the local authority is doing something more than the minimum can it cut down and transfer money, for example, from the education service to the fire service. Inevitably, that would mean that the standard of education would fall and the standard of the fire service would rise. But there is no real catalogue of range of choice within the general grant subjects given by this Bill.
  I appreciate that the Secretary of State may know nothing about it, but I ask that between now and the end of the debate we be given a catalogue of, let us say, a dozen items in which a local authority is given a range of choice within the general grant subjects.
  Mr. Maclay: The hon. and learned Gentleman knows that he is making a purely debating point which is not worthy of him. One could range over the whole of the operations in which local authorities engage, and if asked to pick out individual points, one could go on for ever. The whole substance of my argument is that if a local authority is tied to specific grants it enjoys less freedom in the spending of its money. That is self-evident. I am not pretending that the Bill does all that one would wish to do for local government, but I do suggest that it provides more freedom than exists at present.
  Mr. Johnston: I can only repeat that I quite fail to understand it. I am by no means satisfied that there is this range of choice within the grant subjects. I am not alone in that; I have yet to meet anyone engaged in local government who thinks that there is this range of choice.
  I take an entirely different view of the Bill from that which is taken by the right hon. Gentleman. The purpose of the Bill is to transfer from central taxation to local taxation the substantial increases which are bound to come in the next few years. I am disappointed in the Bill, not so much because of its contents, which are what I expected, but at the fact that the Government should have thought so lightly of the Opposition and of the country that they could not have wrapped it up a little more, could not have tried to deceive us a little better. It is not flattering to our intelligence that the Government should not have tried to put these proposals over a little better than they have.
  Let me continue for only a moment or two more. The bait, if I may so call it, which is held out to local authorities is of approximately £750,000 more per year. How much of that will ever find its way to the local authorities is another matter, and what value it will have by the time the Bill comes into operation I do not know. I am not only suspicious of the initial sum, but of what the Secretary of State prized so highly, the fixing of the annual aggregate amount of general grant from time to time. He suggested that if there were any increases in costs the local authority would get an increased grant, but Clause 2 does not say that at all. All that it says is that the Secretary of State shall take certain factors into account, including increased costs. It in no way obliges him to make a payment if there are increased costs.
  The Bill is a grave disappointment to those who had thought rather better of the Secretary of State than this, who thought that he would stand up for the interests of Scotland rather better than he has done, and who hoped, perhaps rather faintly, that the Bill might mark a new advance in administration in local government in Scotland. The Bill consists really of the first five Clauses, and then there are these other odd Clauses. I can only

  239
  advise my right hon. and hon. Friends that this is a Bill which we must certainly vote against.
  5.3 p.m.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I found the arguments of the hon. and learned Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston) somewhat different from what I had expected. The general criticism of the Bill inside and outside the House has been that education would suffer, but at the start of his speech the hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to regret the extra powers given to the Secretary of State under Clause 3, by which he can alter the grant if, in his opinion, a local authority is not providing the efficient education service which should be given.
  It is a strange argument that because we allow local authorities to take more responsibility for the allocation of money to their services, the administration will cease to be efficient. In the administration of all money, whether it be in relation to one's household or to larger units, it can very rarely be said that the money could not have been more efficiently administered. That is why I support the principle of the Bill to give to the locally-elected body more direct responsibility. I would remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that George Bernard Shaw, who was neither a Tory nor a National Liberal, said that
  "… freedom means responsibility and that is why most men dread it."
  The merit of direct responsibility is an opinion we have held on this side of the House all our political life and on which we were elected. As far as possible we shall give local authorities discretion over their own affairs.
  I am not worried about that. Local electors will see that local authorities discharge their functions properly. I am worried because I suspect that, Aberdeen, the third largest local authority in Scotland, will not get enough money under the Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah."] The interjections from hon. Members are based on the misunderstanding of what I mean. I have no fear that local councils Cannot spend their money economically but I want to ensure that Aberdeen will get enough of it. That is the purpose of my intervention this afternoon.
  Mr. John Rankin: Glasgow has exactly the same fear as the noble Lady.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: No doubt the hon. Member will have an opportunity of raising that point if he is fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. It is estimated in the White Paper that the general grant for Aberdeen, had it been in force for the period 1956–57, would have been £1,276,342. With specific grants the city has to find about 30 per cent. of the expense. It is true that another £750,000 is to be made available to local authorities, but I suspect that Aberdeen will suffer a loss, for the simple reason that it has an advanced educational system which is due to much work over the years, even by Socialist-controlled councils—
  Mr. Thomas Fraser: Does the noble Lady realise that the £750,000 additional money applies to the year 1959–60, is an increase of 2 per cent. over a period of three years, and is not likely to take account of the fall in the value of money in that time? I think the local authorities will get much less.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: I am always grateful for small mercies. I do not expect that the rise in the cost of living will continue, because this admirable Government will deal with that problem. Aberdeen is a delectable place for teachers and it happens that in our schools we have a high proportion of teachers to pupils and an extraordinary lack of capital costs in the form of buildings compared with the cost of remuneration and matters of that kind. While it is true that there is less need for Aberdeen Education Committee to spend in the future, because it has considerably advanced during the past years, it is hard that work done with the approval of the Government should apparently now be penalised. I hope that what my right hon. Friend called certain objective factors regarding education will be generously taken into account.
  For instance, I appreciate the transitional arrangements whereby no local authority will bear any loss during the first year of this scheme. I also appreciate that it will bear only 10 per cent. of any loss during the second year and that

  241
  it is estimated that the scheme will take five to six years to come into effect. I want to find out what it to be the total sum allocated to Aberdeen, and I notice that there are to be discussions with local authorities towards the end of next year about the totals of the general grant for the years 1959–60 and 1960–61.
  Aberdeen and other local authorities likely to suffer a loss—this would be my reaction—are likely to make a larger estimate of expenditure, whether they need it or not, and that must be taken into account if we wish to encourage saving, economy and thrift. I suspect, indeed, I prophesy, that Aberdeen will win for itself a higher proportion of the general grant than is laid down in the White Paper.
  I appreciate what is to be done about revaluation and it may be that many of the considerations now before us will have to be revised. I place the bulk of my hopes in this matter on Clause 2 (2) which says:
  "If … any unforeseen change has taken place in the level of prices, costs or remuneration"—
  that is very important—
  "and that its effect on the cost of providing the services giving rise to relevant expenditure is of such magnitude that it ought not to fall entirely on local authorities, the Secretary of State may by order … vary the aggregate amount of the general grants …"
  I suggest that the Secretary of State will find that local authorities who may suffer heavy losses will take full advantage of the provisions of Clause 2 (2).
  Mr. Ross: The hon. Lady has just told us that prices will not go up. What is she talking about?
  Lady Tweedsmuir: With their usual foresight, the Government are writing into the Bill, much of which will come into operation in future years, provisions against any possibility—I admit a remote one—of the return of a Socialist Government.
  What is of importance in Clause 2 is the word "remuneration," because, as I have often said, I should prefer to see more spent on good sound salary structure than on buildings. Further education is very important and the provisions of Clause 2 (1, c) will apply in that case.
  I do not wish to detain the House any longer except finally to say that I trust,
  242
  in justice to a combination of circumstances, due largely to the amount of progressive work done for education in the City of Aberdeen and in many cases to circumstances which are outwith its control, that the Secretary of State will use the powers given to him in the Bill both wisely and generously.
  5.17 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: I can assure the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) that I am sorry for Aberdeen, just as I am sorry for a number of other local authorities which will find themselves in positions less fortunate than they had hoped. I was struck by the fact that during her speech the noble Lady touched on one of the key points in the whole situation. She talked about what Aberdeen had done for education under the existing régime, the régime of percentage grants. That is the best argument against the Bill. We are opposing the Bill because the percentage grant system has worked and because we are very doubtful about how the new system will work.
  The percentage grant system has produced a partnership between local and central authorities which has led to a great deal of harmonious co-operation, as instanced by the progress in education in the City of Aberdeen. That is the position which we are now disturbing—disturbing on pleas which are wide, general and specious.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State produced most of those pleas. The logic of his argument was often just a little difficult to follow. When discussing the existing situation, the percentage grant situation, in two, I think, consecutive sentences the right hon. Gentleman produced two arguments running completely counter to each other. The first was that it is possible in the present situation for local authorities automatically to get grants for what they want. The second was that Her Majesty's Government have to keep a vigilant eye on local authority spending.
  I do not know on which argument he is basing himself, but I do know that in the past the considerations which he stated so briefly, so briefly that he did not express them fully or correctly, have merged together to produce a co-operative system. Local authorities do not get

  243
  grants automatically. They get them for approved schemes and projects. In other words, it is not simply a matter of agreement about the amount of money which changes hands. It is a matter of agreement about the nature of the project on which the money is to be spent. That is one of the crucial points of the argument about the Bill.
  The Bill talks a great deal about money and on that basis the right hon. Gentleman produced a number of fine-sounding generalisations about independence and freedom and that kind of thing. In fact, the money is raised only because of the projects on which it is to be spent. The essential thing in local government is not money, but policy, and the question is not whether local authorities ought to be free to spend the money they have, but whether they ought to be free to develop policies of their own.
  In the major subject with which the Bill deals, education, the biggest change which has taken place over the last generation is that policy has become much more a national matter and fewer decisions are now left in local hands. It is not simply a matter of fixing teachers' salaries and so on, but also a matter of major lines of development. It is a matter of national interest to people everywhere, in Aberdeen and in every other local authority, that children should stay on longer at school. It is also a matter of national interest that every education authority in the country should develop technical and scientific education more than it is doing at the present time.
  No one is going to leave the decisions on these matters in local hands. These are matters of national interest, as are most of the major matters in educational policy, and it seems to me quite a false idea to talk about the local authorities having increased freedom in matters like education when, in fact, we know perfectly well that the major advance is to be along nationally determined lines.
  I think that the right hon. Gentleman was probably wrong in making the point with which he started—that because of this greater independence in decisions about spending, there would be greater interest on the part of the voters in the affairs of the local authority. He gave us no sort of reason at all why the change he proposes should have that effect on
  244
  people voting in local government elections. He said that as a result of the Government making this change we should get more people voting in those elections and more interest in what the local authority was doing. I do not think any greater interest on the part of the voters will arise because of this slight change towards what he calls independence, though it is not independence actually. There is no great freedom, but just a slight change in the way in which a local authority can handle its money. The right hon. Gentleman gave no reason at all for that suggestion.
  When he reflects more fully upon the matter, and perhaps he has done already, the right hon. Gentleman will probably find that the reason there is less controversy about local matters than there used to be—as expressed in the numbers of people voting—is just that the main content of a local authority's work is now far more determined by national policy than before. There is far less controversial policy about which to clash than there used to be.
  One of the arguments put forward in this connection in favour of a change has been that the proportion of grant to rates, which form the income of each local authority, has been too high. I noticed that the right hon. Gentleman did not lay any great stress on that, and I do not wonder. The proportion, as given by his colleague in the debate on the English Bill, was six to five—six grant and five rates. The proportion in terms of policy decisions is, of course, immensely greater than that. In matters with which a local authority can deal, the ratio of central decision on policy to local decision must be not six to five, but twenty to one, or something of that sort. It does not seem to me at all unreasonable that the amount of income from grant should be greater than the amount of income from rates. There is nothing in the nature of the work done to make it necessary for the rates to be higher than the grant. It is a quite irrelevant consideration.
  The whole business of the relationship between local authorities and the central Government, not on finance but on policy, seems to me to be a very important matter, and I think that in this Bill the Government are treating it too lightly. Under the present system which is about to be swept away a local authority receives for an approved project a certain

  245
  amount of grant, more, in most cases of educational expenditure, for instance, than it is to spend itself out of the rates. That proportion, as between the local authority and the central Government, is a matter of policy to be decided by the Government of the country as a whole.
  It seems to me that, apart from administration, it is the function of a local authority to act as the local eyes and ears of Government as a whole—the eyes and ears from the observations of which new lines of policy will be determined. The local authorities can push ahead here and there and try out schemes, this project and that, without necessarily committing the whole of the economy to a particular kind of thing; but if it is well considered, then they can get co-operation and friendly assistance from the central authorities.
  Under the percentage grant arrangements, this has been done with mutual co-operation and trust between the central Government on the one side and the local authorities on the other. The local authorities can receive this co-operation, and can receive a grant in order to try out any properly considered and reasonable schemes. That seems to me to be the proper sort of relationship between the central Government and local government, and this is the kind of relationship which the present grant arrangements foster. It is the kind of relationship which the new grant arrangements will only endanger, if they do not in fact sweep it away.
  I should like to make one other comment. I do not intend to speak for very long; since this is the kind of debate in which a great many Members will want to speak, I shall try to confine my remarks to about fifteen minutes, instead of the usual twenty. I should like to comment on the modifications or qualifications which have been put into Clause 2 (1), on which the Government have relied a great deal for their defence against the accusation that these changes in finance will lead to a failure to develop services properly.
  Clause 2 (1), in spite of what Government spokesmen have been saying, seems to be an essentially weak safeguard. There is not nearly enough in it. It is not in fact any proper safeguard at all. Clause 2 (1) (c) deals with
  246
  "the need for developing those services and the extent to which, having regard to general economic conditions, it is reasonable to develop those services."
  One of my hon. Friends, in the debate on the Bill dealing with England and Wales, asked who would decide what was reasonable. Obviously it will be the Government. Who will decide whether there is a need? Again, the Government. Who will decide about general economic conditions? Again, the Government. What the paragraph means is simply "When the Government think fit"; nothing more or less than that, and there is no safeguard in it at all.
  The same is true about the two earlier paragraphs (a) and (b), though it is paragraph (c) which is important for developing services like education, because there is a great deal of fear on this side of the House that because of the tremendous developments which are needed in education in the next few years, the central Government, if it remains in its present hands, will try to get out of its financial responsibilities and pass the buck as far as possible to the local authorities.
  There are two points I should like to make about Clause 3. One is about default. The Secretary of State touched on this matter, and I should like to have from the right hon. Gentleman or from his hon. Friend who is to conclude the debate an assurance on one rather serious point concerning the nature of the provisions regarding an authority which does make a serious default. The Clause states that the grant can be refused, and, of course, the right hon. Gentleman says that supplementary provisions for that are in the existing Acts. In the debate on the English and Welsh Bill, there was one rather horrifying moment when the Minister of Education, replying to a point made by an hon. Member from Birmingham, said that if Birmingham was short of a large number of teachers, it would still get its full grant. It would have a financial bonus because it had not appointed as many teachers as it should have done.
  I hope the right hon. Gentleman will assure us that nothing of that sort will happen in Scotland, but that if there is a great shortfall in the number of teachers, the authority will be given help, but will not be given an uncovenanted financial benefit simply because it has not spent, or has not managed to arrange

  247
  properly to spend, the money which should have been spent on teachers, or on something else equally important.
  I should like to have seen in Clause 3, or in another Clause, some provision comparable to those concerning default but providing an incentive. I should like to see some arrangement which would encourage local authorities to strengthen their teaching staffs so that they could decrease the size of classes and raise the level of their service. There does not seem to be any incentive in the Bill to do that. Under the present arrangements there is a fairly considerable incentive, as the noble Lady showed. I do not think there would be any difficulty in making provision for proper incentives on at least a number of the more important matters in which there might be development.
  5.31 p.m.
  Mr. J. C. George: There were two points made by the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. M. MacPherson) with which I agreed. I thought that during the English and Welsh debate, and, perhaps, during our own talk on this subject previously, the idea was created that in these days local authorities could simply think up a scheme and get a 60 per cent. grant. Of course, that is not so; we know there has been keen and very helpful scrutiny in Edinburgh all through.
  The second point raised by the hon. Member was with regard to the remark of the Minister of Education about the shortage of teachers in one area. It was felt that the area would be penalised thereby but the Minister said, "No, the calculation is made on the average staffing required." That gave the impression right away that there was a way of saving money, to cut down spending on education by employing fewer teachers. I hope my right hon. Friend does not agree with the Minister of Education in that respect.
  Hon. Members must recognise that this is a Bill without friends outside the House. The local authorities are against it, the teaching profession is against it, and industry is against it so far as it effects rerating. We must realise that those bodies of opinion are not frivolous but are responsible bodies, and give
  248
  due weight to the quality of opinion that is arising against the introduction of this Bill. When I read what they send to me and hear what they say to me when I meet them, I wonder whether it is possible that those responsible people can be wholly wrong and the Government completely right. It is not some slight amendment for which they are asking; they are against the Bill almost completely.
  It is up to us, perhaps more than usual because of that consensus of opinion against the Bill, to prove our case. I believe that case can be proven, but we must abundantly prove it. Arguments against the Bill which I have had brought to me and which I have heard in this House and outside are, first, against the claim we make for the underlying purpose of the Bill as described in the White Paper, that it will give greater responsibility, greater independence to local authorities and create greater freedom. That is looked upon as dubious and as something which will not amount to much in practice.
  The second argument is that this is a sinister scheme to cut the cost of education nationally and raise the cost locally. I must admit that in this Bill we are erecting the apparatus to do that. The third argument is that the teaching profession, even though we operate this machinery properly, has no confidence in local authorities to apply the necessary funds to meet the expansion which we all know will be necessary in education in the years ahead. Some say that the re-rating provisions do not go far enough, and industry says they go too far. Those, roughly, are the headings under which the main complaints about the Bill have come to me.
  On the local authority question, we should listen to what the teaching profession has said. It has not much respect for the local authorities' position in Scotland today. It says that local authorities are jaded, ailing and sick, that they have lost prestige and lost the appeal to young people to take part in local government; it is unrepresentative; and there are too many non-elected members.
  That makes nonsense of one claim made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) that local electors will check on these people who have to come back every

  249
  three years for election. That is not so, and I will give figures to show that it is not so. A member of the E.I.S. said that he thought local elections were becoming a farce. As we say that we believe local government is the lifeblood of liberty and liberty is the lifeblood of local government, we should look into this question and see if we can do more to bring in new life to local government.
  I looked into the question of elections and found a rather alarming state of affairs. I found that in 1955, when all bodies had elections, 70 per cent. of the seats in Scotland were uncontested. That is not strong local government. If we take out the district councils, we find that 60 per cent. were uncontested and only 40 per cent. of the members were elected. In the counties of cities 14 per cent. were returned unopposed, in large burghs 23 per cent. were unopposed, and in small burghs 50 per cent. were unopposed. In the landward areas 75 per cent. were unopposed, and in the district councils, where elections are rapidly becoming a farce, 86·4 per cent. were unopposed.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: I am pleased that the hon. Member is raising this matter, because three years ago when a Labour candidate contested a ward in Bearsden, at the count the Conservative had 2,000 votes and the Labour candidate 600 and the Conservative said, "I hope we shall not have any of this nonsense again."
  Mr. George: I do not see the point of that intervention, but what emerges from an examination of these figures is that some form of injection is needed into local government.
  Mr. James Stuart: This is a subject, which obviously is of very great importance. Does my hon. Friend think that there is anything in the view that in modern times, with present taxation and so on and the difficulties of people finding time to take part in local government, there is the reason for people not presenting themselves as candidates?
  Mr. George: I intended to deal with that matter later in my speech. I share the views of my right hon. Friend the Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. J. Stuart). I say these figures show that some injection is needed into local
  250
  authority life to restore confidence to the public in that institution. In my time I have seen interest decline, and I fear that that is due to the increase in the amount of grants.
  I do not share the view of the hon. and learned Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston) who opened for the Opposition in this debate. I think this Bill will do something to help interest in local government and local activities. I think the part of the Bill dealing with rerating will also help, because a great gap was created when industry was derated and no longer had a stake in local affairs. Experienced businessmen did not come forward as candidates at council elections as they did before derating. I think the Bill will do something to restore prestige and increase responsibility, because it will increase independence of local government.
  I can see in local councils far more active committees and far more elert finance committees—finance committees were rapidly becoming rubber stamps for the others. Much more time will be needed for finance committees if they are to harmonise the conflicting views of the various services. I would stress that: much more time will have to be given to finance committees if they are to do that.
  I turn to the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Moray and Nairn about attractions for candidates. We have to look at this matter in a practical way. I think it is true that the amount of time consumed on local council work is more than many can spare nowadays; but we can offer some inducements. A higher share of Her Majesty's honours should go to people in local government. I know of excellent men who have served the public for thirty years—county conveners, provosts and the like—who have received no national recognition whatever. We should not under-rate the tremendous appeal that these honours have to men in local government, and if this work were better recognised nationally it would play some part in bringing people back. The office of convener of counties has not the status it should have. The holder should also be a lord lieutenant.
  Then there is the cost of candidature. We know that this is growing. It can be more than ordinary people can bear, and we should think of paying, at least, for election postage. Who would ever have

  251
  dreamt that we would have seen the day when payment would be made to those sitting in another place? I think that ultimately we shall have to consider paying councillors, especially those in counties of cities and in the scattered landward areas. We have to do something to bring suitable people forward as candidates.
  I have spoken of candidates; now let us look at the results of elections. They give great cause' for alarm. Here are the figures for 1952, when all bodies had elections. We should always remember that many people are not given the chance to vote because there are no contesting candidates, and that many people stay away because they have no desire to vote and have no interest in the issue. In 1952, of the people who were entitled to vote in Aberdeen, only 40 per cent. did so. Other figures are: Dundee, 52 per cent.; Glasgow, 45 per cent.; Edinburgh, 35 per cent. That was not a very good showing, but what has happened since? In 1952, 40 per cent. of the Aberdeen electorate voted. Last year, the figure was 9 per cent. Dundee dropped from 52 per cent. in 1952 to 36 per cent. last year; Glasgow, from 45 per cent. to 28 per cent., while Edinburgh showed a slight increase from 30·5 per cent. to 32 per cent.
  Those are alarming figures and point to the fact that some campaign, some real effort, some change is needed to alter the outlook, first, towards candidature, and secondly, towards exercising the vote. This Bill will do something, but do not let us over-rate what it will do. It will not create vast changes. I am sure that more will be done for local government by the fact that tenants are now required to pay all the rates. That will bring at least a sort of angry interest into local government next year and in succeeding years. Some councils help themselves by opening their doors to the Press, but too many of them do their work in committee behind closed doors. In turn, the local Press could do much to create interest in local government affairs by better-quality reporting.
  I should not like the impression to get about that the figures I have quoted present the true picture. That the position is not so bad as they indicate is largely due to the fact that in Scotland
  252
  we have a hard core of high-quality members who go on year after year doing first-class work for the country and are backed up by most able and conscientious officials. That hard core, aided by those officials, has made striking advances in local government work in recent years, but I see some grounds for the teachers' doubts about local authorities, and this and succeeding Governments should find out why this decline of interest has taken place.
  I favour rerating of industry. When we last discussed this subject, the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. Hamilton) took me to task for not declaring an interest. That was one of many wild statements that he then made. I do not know whether I should declare an interest. I have read the whole of the English and Welsh debate, and no one declared an interest there. I certainly have an interest in firms that will be affected by rerating.
  As I say, I favour rerating—
  Mr. Willis: One hundred per cent. rerating?
  Mr. George: Industry should pay its full share of local government costs—and it should send its full share of representatives into the councils. My right hon. Friend's speech gave me the impression that he thought that as industry was derated in depression it should be rerated in prosperity. That seemed to put forward the idea that industry is still enjoying derating. Such is not the case. Had there been no derating, taxation on industry would have been less.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer certainly did not say year to year that there was a proportion of industry's income that was sacrosanct because of rating. Not a bit of it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has long since consumed the benefit of derating. Industry has been taxed, and overtaxed, and I deplore the light-hearted approach to the taxation of industry which is made by some hon Members opposite. [Interruption.] I think that hon. Members opposite have, with unanimous voice, said that industry is not yet rated nearly highly enough. The Secretary of State tried to strike a balance of what he thought industry could bear.
  Rerating should be carried out, and should be carried out up to 100 per cent.,

  253
  but it should be a combined operation between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my right hon. Friend in order to see that industry is no worse off after it is rerated than it is now. But this is a new imposition put on industry, not justified at all by the fact that it has been derated. Rerating at 100 per cent. should be in this Bill, and should be introduced by ten steps of 5 per cent. each and paid back to the local authorities in full. At the same time, the Chancellor should see that industry is not penalised by this move.
  I come to the general block grant, about which I have had many deputations, and have met some senior officials of the E.I.S. The teachers think that this is a sinister scheme to effect economy nationally, and to add to the local burden. This Bill certainly creates the apparatus to do just that, and there must be a sincere approach by Governments, of whatever party, towards education. If not, we are putting into the hands of Government the tools necessary to cut education as they think fit.
  Local authorities undoubtedly prefer a percentage grant. It is quite a cosy little feeling to know that that money is always coming in and that if one can once get Edinburgh's approval of schemes those schemes will go through and there will be no restrictions on the amount. The teachers fear reaction on the part of local authorities in future. They fear that the local authorities might misuse the block grant. That grant seems to me to represent the introduction of budgetary control into local government affairs. By this system they have to work within a fixed budget, and I believe that that will excite a great deal of interest, and highlight possible savings in local authority work. If this leads to economies, what is wrong with that? If economies can be made by closer attention to the way the work is done, then let economies be made. I cannot believe that this great industry of education, spending so many hundreds of millions, is nearly 100 per cent. efficient. No businessman would ever claim that his industry is efficient to anything like that degree.
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Gentleman is indicating that economies might be made or may be made. Is he leaving us to infer that, since economies may be made, extravagance exists?
  Mr. George: The hon. Gentleman must not put words into my mouth. I am saying that there is not one industrialist in this House or outside who would say that his industry could not effect economies. I am quite certain that within the £500 million there is room for economies, and I am quite certain also that, working within the framework of the block grant, authorities will pay more attention to costs and economies will result. That is certain as a matter of business. "Economy", in the view of hon Gentlemen opposite is a nasty word, but in mine it is not.
  The argument has been put forward that what is proposed will penalise the progressive authorities and help those which are not progressive. The housewife who spends most is not necessarily the best housekeeper. I cannot see why we should assume that high spending means that a better education is being provided. High spending could also mean bad management. Low spending could mean an inferior education, but it also could mean good management. Why should it be suggested that high spending means progress and low spending means reaction?
  Let us look at what may fairly be taken as a yardstick, namely, what authorities are spending per pupil per annum. That is a fair yardstick of education now, and, from a study of it, we may see whether there is any real fear for the future. Taking the counties of cities, I find that Aberdeen this year estimates an expenditure of £31 per head per pupil per annum. Dundee will spend £23·7. There is a difference of 28 per cent.
  Mr. Ross: City or county?
  Mr. George: City. These are all counties of cities that I am taking at the moment. Aberdeen estimates that it will spend £31 this year, and Dundee estimates £23·7. There is a difference of 28 per cent. Is the one authority progressive and the other reactionary in the eyes of hon. Gentlemen opposite?
  Mr. T. Fraser: Over and over again, Ministers have told us from that Box that Aberdeen has built new schools since the end of the war and, unfortunately, Dundee has not. That accounts for the difference.
  Mr. George: No; it goes further than that. I am taking four counties of cities. Glasgow will spend £26·1 per pupil this year, and the figure for Edinburgh is £25·4. There is a great difference between Aberdeen and Dundee, and they are both Socialist-controlled. I leave hon. Gentlemen to make up their minds whether one authority is reactionary and the other is progressive. The average of them all is £26·2, so there is no great difference between any of them and the average in the counties of cities.
  Looking at the counties, which embrace all the large and small burghs, I do not take the highest figure, which comes from a Highland county—£51·4 in Sutherland—but I find that Ayr is the lowest, with a figure of £20·5 per pupil. That also is Socialist-controlled. It is the lowest spender, yet I know that it is not a reactionary authority. Having lived and worked there, I know that Ayr is progressive in education and that its spending is good. The average for all the counties is only £23·4, so that Ayr, though the lowest, is not much below the average.
  From these figures, I believe that all authorities are doing their best, at the moment, continuously to discharge their duty to their children, and I do not fear that they will suddenly change their outlook towards education after the Bill is passed.
  There are many more points I should like to deal with, but I do not wish to detain the House. I will deal quickly with the question of the grant. I believe that authorities are trying honestly today, but the grant will be operated according to a formula, and the charge is made that we intend to cut education. I think that that charge has been ably answered already by my right hon. Friend. The other charge is that the grant will not take account of inflation. As to that, I share the view of my noble friend the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South that the Government will halt inflation. I believe that we are in for a period of stability in prices.
  Mr. D. Johnston: Has the hon. Gentleman noticed this morning's returns showing a rise of 1 point in this last month?
  Mr. George: I saw that there has been a rise of 0·7, to be quite exact. I believe
  256
  that our policy is working, and I believe that it will succeed. It is my view that we shall succeed in halting inflation and that we are in for a period of stability.
  Even though we did not halt inflation, the formula, if properly and honestly applied—I admit that it can be misused—will take account of all the facts, including the existing costs, need for expansion, trends of prices, and salaries and so on. It also makes allowance for any exceptional happening which a local authority is unable to deal with in the ordinary way. Of course, all must be considered within the ability of the economy to carry the expansion and the cost. What is wrong with that? In any event, I believe that if any depression did strike the country, education would, under this Government, be the last to suffer.
  Turning to my last point, the fear of teachers that local authorities will fail to discharge their duty, I consider that the evidence I have given of past and present performance shows that the local authorities are indeed trying today to provide a good national standard of education. I cannot imagine any local authority rushing off to expand other services covered by grants at the expense of education, and I do not think that any local authority would be so reaction-minded as to neglect education in order to reduce the call upon the rates. I am confident that local authorities will play the game by the educational system and will provide for the expansion which we all know is needed.
  Other countries have recognised the absolutely vital place which education must have in the years ahead. We have seen the majestic advance of Russia, and we realise the need for technical education among our own people. We must educate our children better. We must at some time raise the school-leaving age and do better with further education. There is a great task to be accomplished, and, for my part, I should never support any Government which neglected education or allowed anyone else to neglect it. The Bill is an advance, and I am happy with the position of local authorities under it. I believe that the Bill will help them and the country, and I support it.
  5.57 p.m.
  Mr. E. G. Willis: There is one point on which I agree with the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George). Nobody wants the Bill, particularly in Scotland. I might agree with him on one or two other points in his speech, but I am rather hesitant to do so, because we have been accustomed to the hon. Gentleman making speeches in the House and in the country and then, when it comes to doing something about them with Ministers, running away from the problem. If he is really sincere about industrial rerating, we will give him a chance of voting against the Financial Resolution tonight.
  Mr. George: I said that 100 per cent. rerating should be a combined-operation, the Chancellor reducing the burden on industry as local authorities acid to it.
  Mr. Willis: We cannot get even that done within the present Bill unless the hon. Gentleman votes against the Financial Resolution. We must make a start. I am afraid that my experience of the hon. Gentleman leads me to think that we are not likely to have his support for any of these measures, and that his speech was concerned more with catching the Press in his constituency than with dealing with realities in the House.
  Mr. George: There is no Press in my constituency.
  Mr. George Thomas: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George) is a very lucky man.
  Mr. Willis: I wish to return now to what I, like my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston), regard as the real problem. I should have thought that one of the reasons, if not the important reason, why anybody with any knowledge or association with local government activities in Scotland was against the Bill was that it failed to deal with a problem which everyone has said in the past is the real problem of local authorities.
  I do not know of one single person who has spoken about local authority administration during the past six or seven years who has not pointed out that the real problem is the ever-increasing rate poundage and the urgent necessity of finding means of supplementing existing
  258
  local government revenue. That has been the view of practically every body, association or organisation which has considered the matter, including the Sorn Committee. I have a whole volume of quotations, but I do not want to weary the House by going through them.
  The trouble with the exceedingly narrow basis of taxation from which we get our local revenue is that it is unjust and that every time the rates go up, so the injustice is aggravated. When we consider that local rates have increased by about 300 per cent. since before the war, the injustice which was seen to exist pre-war has become increasingly obvious to almost everybody, except, apparently, the Government. That is the crux of local government finance, and the Bill does nothing to alter it.
  When the Committee to inquire into local government finance was set up, it was some time before we could even discover from the Secretary of State that there was a Committee in Scotland inquiring into the matter. A considerable amount of probing was needed from this side of the House before we could discover that. Everybody expected that the problems of local government finance would be examined. We are told that they have been examined, but we have not been given a report by any Committee which examined any other system or form of adding to local government income.
  We have been told that other methods were considered impracticable, but we have never been told why. It is not the way to treat the House of Commons, or to treat Members who have to deal with local government finance and to legislate for it, simply to say that somebody—we do not even know who—has considered the matter and has discarded any alternative suggestion. We know neither who were the people nor what their reasons were. That is not good enough.
  The Government suggest that they will do some little thing about it and that they will rerate industry to the extent of 25 per cent. I found it difficult to understand the reasons for this partial rerating of industry. As I read the White Paper for England and Wales, it seemed to me that the argument of the Government was that the national contribution to the income of local authorities had increased to the point at which the ratio was now 6 to 5 when compared with the

  259
  sum raised locally, and that something had to be done to adjust that balance.
  Where do these figures of 6 to 5 come in in relation to Scotland? I understood from the reply given to my hon. Friend that the Government contribution in Scotland is something like 40 per cent.
  Mr. McInnes: It is 38 per cent.
  Mr. Willis: I was giving the Government the benefit of the doubt. I looked up the figures for Edinburgh, and I find that its total rating revenue is £9·3 million, of which Government grants account for only £3·1 million, or one-third. Where, then, does the ratio of 6 to 5 come in for the large densely populated local government areas? We ought to have some explanation.
  The Government argue that they ought to do something about it on the basis of the 6 to 5 ratio and, therefore, they say that they will rerate industry another 25 per cent. to try to level up the balance as between local revenue and Government grant. If that is a sound argument, why should industry not be rated 100 per cent.? On that basis, I should have thought the two should be levelled up even more and that the Government should make it possible for the local authority to increase its rateable value by £6·9 million instead of £2·3 million. The aim of the Government seems to be to increase the rateable value and to increase the income of local authorities from their own resources, to give them greater power. If that argument is true, industry should be rated 100 per cent. and not 50 per cent. Instead, however, it is rerated to 50 per cent.
  In Edinburgh, the ratepayers will continue to subsidise industrialists to the tune of a 4d. or 5d. rate. I thought that the Government did not believe in subsidising people who did not need subsidies. That is what they always tell us. In Musselburgh, a small burgh in my constituency—where, incidentally, we can manage to secure a poll of almost 70 per cent. at municipal elections, and where there is a very live local body—the ratepayers will continue to subsidise industry to the tune of a 1s. 3d. rate. That is a heavy rate poundage by which to subsidise people who, judging by the condition of their accounts as I read them in the reports in
  260
  the Press, could quite well afford to pay their rate burden.
  What is the burden that industry has to bear through the rates? The right hon. Gentleman dodged this question, but many years ago the Balfour Commission pointed out that it was 0·55 per cent. of costs. Everyone knows that because other costs have gone up far greater than the rates, the percentage burden of rates upon industry is now considerably below that level. I should have thought that the Secretary of State might have had some figures to give us about that. It cannot, therefore, be said that this is an immense burden to industry, but it would mean a very great deal to the local ratepayers and to the local councils. It would, of course, be in accordance with the traditions of Government policy, as professed, in not wanting to subsidise people who do not need a subsidy.
  There is another point about this argument which is used in the White Paper for England and Wales concerning the distribution of income as between Government grant and local revenue. I did not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) when he said that it did not matter where the money came from. By and large, there is the feeling that money which comes through the Government is money that is collected more fairly.
  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: I do not recall the remarks to which my hon. Friend is referring. I do not think they were used in any context connected with his present argument. I certainly consider it extremely important where the money comes from, especially the money that may come from either of the two sources of taxation or rates.
  Mr. Willis: I think my hon. Friend will find that that was what he said, although I agree that the context was different. He was dealing with a wider argument. The point I wanted to make was that people feel that money obtained through Government grant is at least collected in a much fairer manner than money obtained through the rating system.
  I suggest that the Government have made no effort whatever to find any alternative means of supporting the local revenue of the local authorities. They have done nothing about the large

  261
  number of suggestions which have been made by a large number of people, some of which have been reported upon very favourably. If it is the object of the Government to enable local authorities to increase their own basis of revenue rather than to obtain money from the Government—which, they argue, ties the local authority and destroys its freedom—they ought at least to have given more favourable consideration to the proposal that the local authority might itself collect some of the revenue at present collected by the Exchequer. I should have thought that that proposal itself would have strengthened the Government's arguments. That would even achieve what the Government are telling us they want to do.
  Nobody could argue that the Bill contributes to the financial strength of the local authorities, and so the only arguments about the Bill are about the degree of freedom it confers upon local authorities. As I said when we discussed the White Paper in July, I cannot see how the local authorities obtain greater freedom. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Pollok pointed out the great needs there are for an expansion of our education services. Who is deciding that? The Government. Who is seeing that the needs are met, and the policy implemented? The Government. As has been pointed out on this side of the House already, these things are being decided and implemented nationally. That limits the degree of responsibility which any local authority has.
  Let us look at the services for the expenditure on which the local authorities are to get grant. It will not take very long to do that. There are the fire services. We cannot reduce the fire services. We are compelled to provide certain fire services. Indeed, there is a stipulation about that, and no local authority has any choice in the matter. Then there are the traffic patrols. We cannot cut those down. They are increasing. Then there is the registration of electors, and we cannot cut that.
  There are health services under the 1947 Act. Of course, local authorities already have a certain amount of freedom now in their work upon them. A local authority can decide whether it will build an institution under the 1947 Act or whether it will build an institution under the National Assistance Act, 1948. The local authority makes a choice, but even
  262
  then it has to go to the Secretary of State for approval. However, in so far as a choice is permitted to the local authorities, they have that choice today. They cannot, however, choose to proceed with a scheme until it has been approved. The difference to be made by the Bill will be very small.
  Mr. Bence: I hope my hon. Friend appreciates that, although the local authorities have freedom within the limits of the grant, by Clause 14 the Secretary of State will make regulations to force them to increase the cost of dying, of being born, and of being married.
  Mr. Willis: The freedom of the local authorities is limited by the extent of the grant, and the Secretary of State himself told us that he thought it was necessary that we should continue to control local authorities, especially their capital expenditure, and the Bill makes permanent the control by the Secretary of State over borrowing by local authorities for capital purposes, even when a local authority does not get a grant for a service.
  That is a funny way to set the local authorities free or to widen their freedom. The Government say that even when the burden is borne wholly by the ratepayers and not the taxpayers, when it is entirely the burden of the local authority, the local authority must get his permission to proceed, and that this requirement is to be made permanent. That is not freedom. I cannot see where the right hon. Gentleman gets his idea that there is any freedom about this.
  I asked him how far he had proceeded with his review of the Report of the Committee on the way in which freedom could be given to the local authorities. He said that he had not got very far. It is five months since he told us the Committee was set up. The proposals in this Bill were announced at the beginning of the year. Surely by this time we ought to have been given some indication of what the Government have in mind, but we have still not the foggiest idea what the Government intend to do. They have given no indication at all. All they have said is, "We shall look at this."
  This is a bad Bill for two reasons. It is a bad Bill because it does not deal with the financial problem, and it is a bad Bill because it does not even do what the Government say it does—give freedom to local authorities. I am reminded

  263
  of the comments of the previous Lord Provost of Edinburgh. I would quote him because Edinburgh was mentioned while my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Paisley was speaking, and because Edinburgh is a great friend of the Government and never passes a resolution condemning them, but is always very favourably disposed towards them. Sir John Banks, addressing the Convention of Royal Burghs immediately after the publication of the Government's proposals, said:
  "I am doubtful if the changes which will take place in the financial system and resources of local government as a result of the present review will go far enough effectively to solve the problem of local government finance and give a full measure of independence to local authorities."
  In other words, the Bill would achieve neither of those two things. I think Sir John spoke very mildly about it. I certainly do not think the Bill does those things, and for those reasons I think the Bill should be opposed.
  6.16 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Clark Hutchison: Unlike hon. Members opposite, I applaud the Government for presenting this Bill because one of its aims is to strengthen the influence of local government. We all know that today local government suffers from a lack of candidates and a lack of interest. Any Bill which tends to restore interest in local government and so to attract more candidates into local government, and which strengthens the hands of local government, ought to be welcome, I should have thought. If we are to have lively and efficient local government we must give it responsibility and control over its own affairs. I should have thought that that was self-evident.
  As I understand, what causes most dispute is the substitution of the block grant for the percentage grant. I personally think that it is an excellent idea. I favour it. My reasons are as follow. With the percentage grant there are various votes, and there is much delay in getting sanctions, and an enormous amount of paper work; there is also irksome supervision; and there is extra work thrown upon accountants and auditors. The cry on all sides today is for the Government to cut red tape and
  264
  act more quickly. Any Measure which will simplify administration must be welcome. I am reliably informed that by this substitution the amount of time and number of man-hours which will be saved will be enormous.
  Mr. Rankin: Would the hon. Member give us the source of his information?
  Mr. Clark Hutchison: Yes. It came from the local authority in Edinburgh.
  Mr. Rankin: Only that one?
  Mr. Clark Hutchison: It is the only one I asked.
  I had, however, experience of this matter when I served as a civil servant overseas. I was in an area which received a grant from United Kingdom funds. That grant was divided into various sections, into different votes under different heads, and out there we were not allowed to change from one to another without the approval of higher authority. To get such approval took a long time and much correspondence and sometimes loss of temper. I learnt from practical experience that the system was a bad one. I believe that if money is to be paid to local authorities they should be given a lump sum and they should be trusted to use it to the best of their ability.
  Mr. Ross: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that once that has been allocated by local authorities it will not give the civil servants and the local government the right to change.
  Mr. Clark Hutchison: I am referring to the work involved of checking the amounts by auditors and accountants. My authority is the Edinburgh local authority.
  Mr. Ross: That is quite wrong.
  Mr. Clark Hutchison: As has been revealed, I have the honour to represent one of the Edinburgh constituencies. All will agree that Edinburgh has an excellent record in local government and a very progressive outlook. I think that it is the best governed city in Britain. Edinburgh has clearly said that it favours the Bill and welcomes it. It will be of benefit to Edinburgh. Indeed, the proposals are very similar to proposals put forward by Mr. Bell, who was Treasurer in Edinburgh for many years and was known as an expert in local finance. Edinburgh has

  265
  no objection to the formula for calculating the sums to be given. The formula was devised after considerable thought and work by the working party that eventually produced it. No local authority and, indeed, no person has produced a better formula.
  There are, however, two points I should like my hon. Friend to touch upon when he winds up the debate. They are covered by Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill. First, I should like him to say quite definitely that local authorities will not be burdened with extra expenditure for any unexpected thing that they have to take over. They do not want an unexpected burden laid on their shoulders and then to be asked to pay for it. Secondly, the amount of the grant should be calculated annually or perhaps every second year, and it should be fixed to cover a period not more than two or three years ahead.
  Like other hon. Members, I have received a good deal of literature about the Bill. It has come from two sources—teachers and certain local government authorities. The teachers feel that in some way education will suffer as a result of the Bill. I think that they are prejudging the issue.
  Mr. William Hannan: Out of experience.
  Mr. Clark Hutchison: That is not my view. I believe that by giving greater responsibility to local authorities eventually competition may be started up. In any event, in Scotland education has always held a high place in our hearts and I do not see that because of the Bill the interest in education will suddenly melt away. If local authorities are not up to the mark and are not running our schools properly, the teachers and parents can get together and remove the town councillors or others at the local elections.
  Mr. Bence: Where will the money come from?
  Mr. Clark Hutchison: The other section of the community which does not appear to like the Bill is local authorities which are controlled by Socialist majorities.
  Mr. McInnes: We cannot allow a statement of that kind to pass, because the hon. Member must be aware that the
  266
  bulk of local authorities in Scotland are Conservative-dominated, and every local authority in Scotland, through the appropriate associations, has protested vigorously against the Bill, with the exception of Edinburgh.
  Mr. Clark Hutchison: I was thinking primarily of the cities, such as Dundee, Aberdeen and Glasgow, which are Socialist-controlled.
  I can understand that, because they like central control and orders from the top. If they have this new system they will have to think for themselves and not merely do as they are told from the central organisation. This idea of centralisation and orders from the top going down the line is the pernicious doctrine which hon. Members opposite favour. I do not subscribe to it, and I believe that we shall have more efficiency if we give local authorities more power to run their own affairs. The Bill does that to a certain extent.
  Mr. D. Johnston: Is it the hon. Gentleman's thesis that local authorities are opposing the Bill because they fear freedom?
  Mr. Clark Hutchison: No. As I understand, the local authorities which are dominated by a Socialist majority do not like it because it conflicts with their philosophy.
  6.27 p.m.
  Mr. James McInnes: I have endeavoured to follow the speech of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. M. Clark Hutchison) as far as I could, but I confess that he rather surprised me by some of his statements, particularly the statement about Socialist-controlled local authorities being opposed to the Bill. When challenged about local authorities he diverted attention to the cities. When he mentioned the cities he said that they are opposed to the Bill because they like central control.
  The hon. Gentleman does not understand the set-up of Scottish local government when he asserts that the cities particularly like central control. Since I became associated with local government almost thirty years ago, the fight has been against central control. My hon. Friend the Member for Govan (Mr. Rankin) once said that we might get rid of the idea that local authorities are merely

  267
  the stamping machine of the central government. That has been the battle all along and it is the battle in the Bill. It still exists.
  I want to deal with one or two other points that the hon. Gentleman made. I listened with rapt attention to the Secretary of State. The entire theme of his contribution could be crystallised by saying that it dealt with freedom and liberty, greater responsibility, greater this and greater something else. It was nothing but a series of platitudes. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say quite categorically that it was not the intention, by means of the Bill, to cut down grants to local authorities, or in any way to cut or bring about a reduction of the services which local authorities provide. I cannot appreciate that point of view, nor do I accept it yet.
  The position is set out very clearly in paragraph 17 of the White Paper on Local Government Finance in Scotland, which says:
  "The Government's view is that this opportunity should be taken to make some reduction in the level of Exchequer grants. The reasons for this proposal, as explained in paragraphs 26 to 29 of the English White Paper, are briefly that local authorities now receive more from Government grants than from rates."
  It adds that since before the last war incomes, on an average, have trebled and rates have doubled.
  I emphasise that the very first sentence is:
  "… this opportunity should be taken to make some reduction in the level of Exchequer grants."
  The right hon. Gentleman said that that sentence referred to the question of re-rating, When did derating or rerating ever become an Exchequer grant? Government spokesmen are trying to cloud the situation. They regret the inclusion of that sentence. It gives the whole game away. They assert that the sentence refers to rerating, but rerating and derating were never a matter of Exchequer grant. It seems to me, therefore, that absolute nonsense is made of the Secretary of State's assertion that it was not the intention to cut down grants or to reduce the services provided by a local authority.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Niall Macpherson): What does the hon. Member think the words
  268
  "this opportunity" mean? "This opportunity" in relation to what?
  Mr. McInnes: "This opportunity" in relation to the question of the financial arrangements between the Government and local authorities. The heading of the paragraph in the White Paper is, "Reduction in Grants." Have the Government ever made a grant to local authorities in respect of derating? Will the hon. Gentleman answer that question?
  It is perfectly clear that this proposal involves a reduction in Exchequer grants and that the block grant system is the instrument to be employed in achieving that reduction or that economy. If hon. Members opposite still assert that there is to be no reduction in Exchequer grant, the change-over from percentage grants to the system of general grant make sense only if it becomes the means of markedly reducing the Exchequer aid and thereby compelling local authorities to raise funds from their own resources. Only in circumstances of that kind does the change make any sense at all.
  If no economies are intended, why did the Government specifically exclude from the Bill police grant and the Civil Defence grant? If the block grant system is an improvement, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South indicated, on the system of percentage grants, why not include the police and Civil Defence services so that they may have the advantage of this improvement?
  Is not the position simply that it is perfectly clear that the Bill will compel local authorities to cut and carve and scamp services like education, health, road safety and the fire service, but that in respect of the police and Civil Defence the Government say, "Do not touch those because we have not included them in the block grant. You will continue to receive a percentage grant in respect of those services"? I am satisfied that there is no shadow of doubt that the introduction of the block grant is part of the Government's battle against inflation. The whole purpose of the Bill is to transfer the burden from the taxpayer to the ratepayer, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) has pointed out.
  Paragraph 17 of the White Paper indicates that local authorities now receive more from Government grants than

  269
  from rates. I ask whoever is to reply to the debate on behalf of the Government to what extent that is really true. Would it not be more correct to say that a few local authorities receive more from Government grants than from rates? For example, the counties of Zetland, Orkney, Sutherland, Caithness and Inverness have received Government grants probably to the extent of 80 per cent. of their total expenditure. Indeed, in some cases the extent of Government grants to these county councils works out at £16 7s. 5d. per head of population.
  When I take the reply which the hon. Gentleman himself gave to me in respect of Exchequer equalisation grants, I find that in 1953–57 Government grants represented only 38 per cent. of local authority expenditure. In 1955–56 the figure was also 38 per cent., so, in effect, local authorities had to find for themselves 62 per cent. of their total expenditure. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East, I fail to appreciate a figure of 65 per cent. for rates.
  I want now to speak of the position of the city which I represent, to show the trend that has taken place in the last eight or nine years. In 1948, in Glasgow, Government grants represented 34 per cent. of the expenditure of local authorities, and local rates 49 per cent. In 1956–57, last year, Government grants represented 36 per cent. and local rates 48 per cent. So there has been little or no significant change in respect of the ratio during the past eight or nine years.
  Now I will deal again with paragraph 17 of the White Paper, the third sentence of which says that
  "… while rates have doubled since before the last war, incomes … have on average nearly trebled."
  Reference was made to that in the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Pollok (Mr. George). That is an extraordinary statement to appear in the White Paper. It simply reveals how slavishly we follow the phrases used in the English Bill, without giving any consideration to the question whether or not they apply to Scotland. In reply to the statement that rates have doubled and incomes has trebled, I say categorically that the rates also have trebled. I could name dozens of local authorities in Scotland where rates have trebled.
  270
  For instance, Aberdeen's rates in 1939 were 8s. 7d.; they are now 24s. 4d. I am sorry that the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) is not in her place. Taking a county council, Stirling, the rates pre-war were 9s. 1d. and they are now 27s. 1d. Taking a large burgh, Forfar, they were 8s. and they are now 23s.
  Again, let me quote the figures provided to me by the Secretary of State in reply to a Question. I asked what was the extent of rates collected in Scotland. The information provided by the right hon. Gentleman was as follows: in 1939, £22 million; in 1950, £30 million; and, in 1956, £63 million. So, again, the amount of rates collected has trebled, and I suggest that when the figures for the recent financial year are available a few more million pounds will be added to these figures.
  I do not want to confine my criticism merely to the Government's financial programme. There is a much broader background. There is the background of greater freedom, greater independence and a greater sense of responsibility being given to local authorities. The Secretary of State dealt with that almost exclusively, and I want to know how the Bill gives greater freedom, greater liberty and a greater sense of responsibility to local authorities.
  We talk of freedom and liberty being provided by the Bill but how can we, in the light of what has happened in recent years, suggest that we are extending to local authorities this freedom, this liberty, this greater sense of responsibility? How can we suggest that, when in Bill after Bill we have restricted considerably the functions of local authorities in Scotland? I am thinking particularly of the Housing (Repairs and Rents) (Scotland) Bill, the Rating and Valuation Bill, the Rent Bill and also the Housing and Town Development (Scotland) Bill.
  For example, in this very Bill the Secretary of State is making permanent what at one time was temporary legislation. In Clause 11 he is now permanently restricting the powers of local authorities to borrow money. How, therefore, can this Government talk of freedom and liberty when the Secretary of State took unto himself default powers in the Housing and Town Development (Scotland) Act? What is the use of talking

  271
  about a greater sense of responsibility when, under the Rating and Valuation Bill, we denuded the local authorities of many of their functions and took away from them valuation appeals committees?
  What do we mean by freedom and liberty? If I take the first three Clauses of this Bill, what do I find? That on eight different occasions in three Clauses the Secretary of State takes unto himself the power to do this, that and the other thing. There is to be no consultation with the local authorities, no consultation of any kind. The Secretary of State invests himself with all the power necessary to give effect to the Bill. It is nonsense and humbug for the Government to talk about freedom and liberty.
  I will put a final question to the Minister. When replying to the debate tonight, will he tell the House of one statutory provision which the Government intend to relinquish in order to give local authorities that freedom and liberty? Will he tell the House of a single statutory provision that will enable the Government to justify their claims about freedom and liberty?
  The Scottish local authorities, excluding Edinburgh—and I exclude Edinburgh with the maximum pride—are united in their opposition to this Bill as never before. Indeed, the three local authority associations were invited by the Minister of State to attend a meeting in Edinburgh to discuss with him the proposals contained in the Bill. They all turned up at the meeting in Edinburgh and the Minister of State opened the discussion. However, the representatives of the local authority associations said that they refused to discuss the Bill and were disgusted with it. They then left the meeting with the Minister of State shouting after them, as they went through the door, that they were an irresponsible bunch of local authority representatives. How reprehensible we would find the conduct of the Minister of State in matters of that kind if we went into his background!
  I regard the Bill as a powerful piece of plunder, unworthy of any Government, and I shall have the greatest pleasure in voting against it tonight.
  6.51 p.m.
  Mr. W. S. Duthie: I am very grateful for having caught your eye, Mr. Speaker, on this occasion, because I want
  272
  to make some comments on the Bill as a representative of an area which contains large sparsely populated tracts. I have had considerable discussion about the Bill both in my constituency of Banff and here in London. I have given evidence to those in high places about the very grave concern with which Banffshire views the proposals in this Measure. I hope that the House will forgive me if I pass from the general to the particular and deal with the Bill in some detail as it affects an area like Banffshire.
  Had the new proposals been effective in 1956–57, Banffshire would have been enduring a loss of grant of £54,752 in the first year. The grants to be discontinued amount to £423,505 and the total block grant, as per page 10 of the White Paper, is £368,753, a loss to us of £54,752 with a population of about 50,000. There has been considerable and somewhat optimistic talk about the gain of £750,000 on the overall picture. I estimate—and I want the Joint Under-Secretary to confirm it—that Banffshire will be the hardest hit of all Scottish counties as a result of the Bill.
  In addition to that loss, there is another extremely disturbing factor. It is that there is no concrete plan for meeting, other than through the rates, any increased expenditure arising when the new school building programme is fully under way. My county does not go in for frills and non-essentials in its building and the provision of the amenities for which it is responsible. In 1962–63, when our school building programme is fully under way, and if the present formula is applicable, we will have a further annual deficit of £32,298 on loan charges, which means that from two items alone, the decrease in the grant and the increased loan charges, assuming that the formula then obtains, will be £87,680 a year and that is not taking account of the natural increase of expenditure which must come along with the development of our education plans.
  Despite the short-term transitional arrangements, I cannot find an assurance in the Bill that a staggering annual deficit can be avoided without a lowering of the standards for which our county council stands and for which the county has rightly earned a national and, indeed, an international reputation.

  273
  The Bill refers to recoupment—and my right hon. Friend spoke about it this afternoon—which will come from the rerating of industry. However, my right hon. Friend appears to have forgotten that the Banffshire coast is the very centre of the Buckie—Peterhead fiasco, when all kinds of promises were given about industry being established. It is not the fault of those who own the factory concerned that the factory which we hoped would employ 200 people now, in fact, employs only about 20. That was unfortunate, it was just one of those things, but those are considerations which should be taken into account when the case of these sparsely populated areas is being considered when devising the formula.
  We have been extremely successful with our shipbuilding industry, but largely on account of Government contracts for building Government vessels, inshore mine sweepers and the like, and a certain number of grant and loan fishing craft. That sort of business is tailing off and we cannot look for recoupment from rerating the shipbuilding industry. Our woollen mills in Keith are splendid organisations, but they cannot stand any more being added to their standing charges, because they have to face the tremendous disadvantage of transport costs which, all along the line, are much higher than those of the mills on the Border and further south. We do not have the industrial wherewithal for making up the deficit.
  I want to refer to the formula for the distribution of the grant. Why did the Government resort to this device and why is there not a long-term safeguard against losses such as my county will indubitably suffer? A safeguard could have been written into the Bill. I cannot find such a safeguard. The whole cause of the trouble is the Second Schedule and I insist that I have an assurance from the Government during the debate that the Schedule will be re-examined by 1961 when all the facts are known. That is absolutely essential.
  I want to examine the formula in terms of a county like Banffshire. We have seven small burghs in Banffshire which could be included in the landward population. As recently as 12th December, the Department of Health in Scotland wrote to the Clerk of the County Council:
  "I refer to your letter of 6th December, 1957, and confirm that all the burghs in Banffshire with the exception of Banff, Buckie,
  274
  Keith and Macduff are regarded as predominantly rural and, accordingly, eligible for grant under the Rural Water Supplies and Sewerage Acts, 1944 to 1955."
  Why could not those burghs have been regarded as rural areas when the formula in the Bill was devised? If that had been done, Banffshire would have come into the 60 per cent. rural population class and conditions would have been much better. That is a consideration which must be weighed in any revision of the formula.
  I have many friends among the Banffshire teachers and I know full well that they are deeply concerned about this matter. Their concern does not originate in the feeling that the members of the county council who may not be university graduates are not qualified to deal with matters of education. They are concerned because it has been borne in upon them that Banffshire's education wings will be severely clipped if this formula is allowed to operate for any undue length of time.
  Our teachers appreciate that in an area such as this, which is, naturally, devoid of industrial activity, education is the only door open to young people to make their way in the world if they are to realise their ambitions. They deplore any lessening of the educational standards, which is inevitable if the Government persist in this formula.
  Decentralisation is a good thing, and no one could pay greater tribute than myself to the good that can come from decentralisation; but decentralisation must not be achieved at the expense of the range or quality of our education as we know it in Banffshire.
  On the question of inducements for people to enter into local government with more enthusiasm, I think that it is not a very great inducement to the Banffshire County Council to realise that it has, perhaps, to do more work with less funds; more to do and less to do it with. The Minister must remove all these misgivings which we feel, and rightly feel. I sincerely trust there will be assurances from him concerning the Second Schedule which will enable me to support the Bill. If I cannot have those assurances, then I must take the other course.
  7.2 p.m.
  Mr. William Hamilton: I do not think that the Government can be particularly happy with the reception

  275
  that the Bill has had from their own side tonight. The hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Duthie) has more or less repeated, in rather stronger terms, what the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) said earlier.
  I want to refer in some detail to the case of Aberdeen, to show just what are its difficulties. Specific cases have been given concerning Banffshire, and I will give them for Aberdeen. If the Government have a case as strong on their side and they will give the specific figures, it would help us a great deal to see the picture in perspective. What we are lacking at the moment is a definition. No authority knows exactly where it stands on this question. I listened very carefully to the opening speech of the Secretary of State. He is the high priest of humbug. He talked about giving local authorities freedom, but later, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) said, he contradicted that by saying that if a local authority falls down on its job, then suitable provision is made in Clause 3. Presumably he does not trust local authorities. He does not allow them the freedom to do what he says the Bill allows them to do.
  I shall confine my remarks to the Bill's effect on education. There is, I think, an amazing unanimity on this issue in the education world. Indeed, it is a remarkable achievement by the Government to get unanimity in the most unheard of places. I remember during the Suez debate when America and Russia actually came together against the British Government. This is a comparable achievement in the educational field, there being a coming together in opposing a Tory Government.
  The Bill is a financial measure. Its title makes that clear. It makes Scotland wholly dependant on decisions which are made in England and Wales. Three times on page 2 of the Bill there is the expression that the Secretary of State will do this, that or the other thing:
  "… with the consent of the Treasury."
  That is bad enough with a strong Secretary of State, but with a weak one, as the Scotsman said some while ago:
  "It is just too bad that so often there is a little evidence of a strong Scottish influence in the Cabinet or in any other Department in Whitehall."
  276
  That is a typical masterpiece of understatement in which the Scotsman indulges.
  Precisely because it is a financial Bill, the whole purpose of the exercise has to be seen in the context of the other financial measures which the Government have taken in recent months. It obviously involves a radical reduction in Treasury responsibility for education. I recall that when we had a Labour Government, the then Opposition made extravagant claims about what they would do to reduce Government expenditure when they got into power, and a lot of misguided people in the country believed it, and voted for them. When the Conservatives got into power, they found that they could make significant savings only by radical changes of policy, and this is one of those radical changes. If it does not mean decreased Treasury responsibility, then it runs counter to all the other financial measures which the Government have taken in recent months. If it does mean reduced Exchequer payments—my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) quoted paragraph 17 of the White Paper which makes it clear that that is the object of the exercise—then three choices are open to local education authorities.
  First, they can continue development as before and finance the increased expenses involved exclusively from the rates; secondly, they can cut their service; thirdly, they can have a combination of the two. Clearly, the service most affected by the proposal is education and that, as has been said many times, is a developing service. We ought to have a statement from the Government that they are as determined as I hope this side of the House is to contribute a bigger proportion of the national income to education than has been done hitherto.
  I have previously quoted these figures, and I repeat them. When we recall that in Britain as a whole we spend about £550 million on education and £1,800 million on drink and tobacco—those were the figures last year—I think that we have our priorities hopelessly wrong. Local authorities want more money, if only to pay the increased loan charges. In 1952–53, the interest paid by local authorities for capital purposes was £683,000. In 1956–57, the estimated figure is £1,903,000, which is very nearly a threefold increase in interest charges alone.

  277
  There are one or two specific points arising from the Bill with which I should like to deal. The first is that no authority can calculate accurately how much it will get. This is especially true in the counties. In the county burghs, more precision is possible. That is why I will quote Aberdeen. The figures were worked out by Aberdeen and some of them were quoted by the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South who has not been seen in the Chamber since. She said that last year under this proposal, if a block grant had been in operation. Aberdeen would have received £1,265,534. In fact, last year Aberdeen received £1,677,050 in respect of education alone, and in all, about £2 million from the Treasury.
  Therefore, on the Government's own figures Aberdeen would have been £750,000 down. This year, Aberdeen's estimated expenditure upon education is up by £326,000, to a figure just over £3 million. The Government's estimated contribution to that is just under £2 million. Therefore, if Aberdeen is to continue to make the progress that it has been making, the net share of the additional cost chargeable to the rates must be £87,000.
  Aberdeen will receive from the Exchequer Equalisation Fund the sum of £69,000—I understand that this is the first time that the city has participated—and a rate increase of 1s. has, therefore, been imposed. That increase would have been much bigger if the percentage grant had not been available. In fact, the more that Aberdeen expands its education service—this argument applies to all other authorities which are progressive in education—the greater will be the gap between the block grant and the expenditure, and, accordingly, the greater will be the rate burden. In fact, the laggards or wooden-tops will be rewarded and the progressive authorites penalised.
  As the right hon. Gentleman will admit, Aberdeen has been one of the pacemakers in education. Its expenditure on education has been rising at an average rate of 10–15 per cent. per year. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not deplore that fact; indeed, one of the arguments of the Government is that education has been making considerable progress under the existing system. If we compare the figures for Aberdeen with those for Edinburgh we find that in 1956–57 the expenditure on education per 1,000 of the
  278
  population in Labour-controlled Aberdeen was about 40 per cent. higher than it was in Tory-controlled Edinburgh, it being £5,030 per 1,000 in Aberdeen as against £3,665 in Edinburgh.
  I am asking whether Aberdeen or Banffshire is an exceptional case. If so, the Government should bring forward their own specific case to show the positive advantage to be derived from the operation of the Bill. The basis of the right hon. Gentleman's argument is that this is another version of the slogan, "Set the people free." That is indeed, the gist of the general argument advanced in support of the Bill.
  Local authorities seem strangely reluctant to accept the freedom offered to them. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central asked why we should not extend that freedom to the other services; police, housing, roads—the lot. Why do not the Government provide complete freedom in regard to those services? Or is this a transitional process? Shall we eventually reach the position when complete freedom will be given in respect of such services as the police and Civil Defence?
  I say that, whether we like it or not, we do not have an informed democracy. Many people on local authorities are not fitted to control the education service, which I regard as being sufficiently important to be recognised as a national service. The central Government should provide increased finance and exercise increased control of the service.
  The right hon. Gentleman's charge that we do not trust local authorities, and that he is giving them freedom, has no strength. The education service should be recognised as a national service and financed, upon an increasing scale, as such. I wonder how much control of expenditure on education Russian local authorities have. I am not saying that we want a comparable system, but we want comparable results if we can get them. The Bill goes the wrong way about getting them.
  Mr. J. Stuart: Does the hon. Member suggest that local people are completely uninterested in education?
  Mr. Hamilton: I am saying that the subject of education engenders very little political enthusiasm, and that there are people on local authorities who just want

  279
  to see this type of green light in order to take the opportunity of cutting back expenditure or retarding progress. If they are satisfied that the Government are giving them encouragement to that end, that is all they need. Anything which brings about that situation will be a national tragedy. That is why I hope that the Bill will be rejected.
  7.16 p.m.
  Sir James Henderson-Stewart: The hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. Hamilton) referred to two points which were mentioned earlier by one of his hon. Friends. He asked why the police and road services should not be included in this freedom. On reflection, I think he would agree that these are somewhat different problems. The police and the Civil Defence services, for example, cover a wide field, and it would be very difficult to find a common factor which could be applied in respect of grants. That question might well be taken up in Committee, but from what little experience I have had I feel sure that these would be difficult matters to divide up, as is done in the case of education and certain other services.
  The subject that we are debating tonight is one of the most important that has come before us for a very long time. It raises a problem which affects the general life of Scotland and its government, and it is therefore one that we should examine with the greatest care. I do not regret the animated debate that we have had, and I do not suppose that my right hon. Friend objects to the criticisms which have been made, because they show that the House recognises the extreme importance of the matter.
  In Scotland, we are concerned only with the finance of local authorities. England has the broader problem of the constitution of the authorities themselves. That issue does not arise in Scotland, and to that extent our problem is fortunately more limited. With us the issue is confined, broadly, to the question of the kind of change that we should make in financing local services.
  It is no use belittling the anxiety which exists throughout Scotland about the growing burden of the cost of these local services. They have been expanding year by year, and have done so since
  280
  the war at a terrific and unprecedented rate. As we have heard, the burden of rates has doubled and trebled. The weight of the local public debt has grown to such a degree as to give responsible people cause for real anxiety.
  When we add to all this the great increase in central Government taxation, particularly indirect taxation, we realise that it is a problem affecting every citizen in the country and may be regarded as one of the greatest problems of our time. The burden of taxation is so great as to be an encumbrance on industry which we cannot much longer sustain, and when we talk of the burden of rates and taxes we are discussing a matter of very great importance.
  Naturally the question arises—it was put by the hon. and learned Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston)—whether the resources of the local authorities are the right ones. The hon. and learned Member expressed what I suppose can be only a personal opinion when he said that he thought the present method of financing local authorities was outmoded and would have to be replaced by something else. Apparently the hon. and learned Member had in mind a local income tax. We must not take the hon. and learned Member's suggestion too seriously, because clearly it does not represent the considered view of his party. Speaking officially from the Opposition Front Bench in a debate last week the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren) was emphatic about this. He said:
  "I agree at once with the Minister that the additional forms of income which have been examined—entertainment tax, hotel tax, shopping tax and the rest—do not fill the Bill. Each would assist the authorities which already have fairly substantial resources but would not help those with few resources. As the Minister said, we must stick to rates and grants."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th December, 1957; Vol. 579, c. 1018.]
  I take that to be the official policy of the Opposition, and if that is so hon. Members opposite must accept the general financial principles underlying this Bill; so upon that we apparently are agreed.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: Would the hon. Baronet agree that that was said in a particular context, and applies to England and Wales? Regarding Scotland, we had the opportunity as did the Government supported by the hon. Baronet in the prescription of the terms of reference of the

  281
  Sorn Committee to ask for a wider inquiry. Had we taken evidence on a wider scale and gone into the matter more thoroughly, we might not now be discussing the question of rates, but some other matter allied to the raising of money.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: That may be, and it is, a fascinating problem. I am stating now that, as I understand it, hon. Members opposite do not oppose the general principle of the Government, but stand by the present arrangement of rates and grants as the main source of income for local authorities. I take it that that is agreed.
  Mr. Ross: The hon. Baronet used the words, "The underlying principle of this Bill." But that is not the underlying principle of this Bill, and if the hon. Baronet will read the White Paper, he will see that it is not.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I do not propose to be put off by quibbles of that kind.
  I am concerned about the point raised by the hon. and learned Member for Paisley, whether local authority services should be financed by a local income tax or something of that kind, and I am saying that that is not the official Opposition policy. The official policy of the Opposition, and of the Government, is that the main sources of income for local authorities shall continue to be rates and central Government grants. That is all I am saying, and I stand by it.
  The question really is, how do we determine the balance of grants and the rates between these two sources of income? I have been a Member of this House for quite a long time and I recollect a number of occasions—particularly during the time of Mr. Tom Johnston—when we considered that if there are two bodies, two sources, providing the finances of an undertaking—the central Government and a local authority—it is a good principle to throw as much responsibility for payment as possible on the body which actually spends the money. I do not think that anybody objects to that principle.
  Mr. T. Fraser: I do.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: It did not use to be so.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: Times have changed.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: It is an old principle of this House, and I think a good one, that where we have a body which spends the money, as heavy a responsibility as is reasonably possible should be put upon that body.
  Mr. Rankin Mr. Rankin rose—
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I do not wish to give way. I shall not be speaking for much longer, and I am trying not to be controversial.
  Mr. Rankin: Is not the hon. Baronet making a distinction between a body which spends money and a body which is directed to spend the money?
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I will come to that.
  I was trying to carry the House with me on the general principal that we should aim at making the body which spends the money carry a fairly heavy responsibility.
  Mr. T. Fraser: The hon. Baronet has not succeeded.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I think that the services with which we are here mainly concerned are services where that principle should apply. Education, which is the chief service, as we are all agreed, works on the principle that the local authority provides 40 per cent. and the central Government 60 per cent. of the expenditure and, of course, other services have other percentages of expenditure. We have all had experience, either as Members of the central Government or as members of a local authority, and I do not think that any of us would deny that if it is only 40 per cent. with which the local authority is concerned, the authority feels more free in proposing considerable expenditure than would be the case were it, for example, responsible for 60 per cent. So the principle of bearing a heavy responsibility for payment is important.
  Mr. A. Woodburn Mr. A. Woodburn (Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire) rose—
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to continue, I think I can carry him with me.

  283
  The Bill does not alter these percentages; it deals with the matter in a different way.
  Mr. T. Fraser: But it does alter the percentages.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: If the hon. Member will be so kind as to allow me to continue my speech I would say that it does not alter the percentages. What it does is—
  Mr. Fraser: Yes, it does.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: —to introduce a new way—
  Mr. Fraser: No.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: —of making the local authorities more responsible than they were.
  Mr. Fraser: It abolishes the percentages.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I will develop that argument, but before doing so I wish for a moment to examine the question of the actual amount of grant which will flow to the local authorities under the provisions of the Bill.
  One of the main criticisms before the Bill was published was that the amounts to be provided by the central Government were to be cut down or frozen. I suggest that our debate so far has disproved that. When one examines Clause 2 with care it becomes plain that, in arriving at the grant to be given to Scottish authorities in bulk, the considerations which have to be taken into account are such that the grant cannot possibly be less than it is now; and there is every likelihood, as I read the Clause, that it will be greater and will meet the needs of expanding services such as education—
  Mr. Ross: If that is so, will the hon. Baronet—
  Hon. Members: Sit down.
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: If the hon. Member will allow me to make my speech, it will be quite short and, I hope, quite uncontroversial; but I have a view to put. I am suggesting to the House and to the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), who has great experience in this matter, that if
  284
  he had this Measure as an Act before him and it insisted upon taking account of Clause 2, he would not find it possible to do the things his hon. Friends are afraid might be done.
  I invite the House to examine these matters with greater care. I will not take up further time on this particular point, but I contend that Clause 2 contains so many carefully worded provisions that there should be no fear of a reduction in the grant for education. On the contrary, there is every justification and assurance, quite apart from the speech of my right hon. Friend, that that great, necessary, expanding service will continue to be supported in an expanding way.
  Mr. Woodburn: Even assuming for the moment the attitude of the hon. Member towards the division of the present grant, what has he to say about the future guarantee of the Goschen formula, for which he would fight fiercely if he were on these benches? What about the removal of the Goschen formula and injustice between Scotland and England on the question of education?
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I am surprised that the right hon. Member says that, because he knows as well as I do—and as was repeated by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State—that we do very well in Scotland. We do better than the Goschen formula. I have always resisted limiting our claims to the Goschen formula. I speak, I hope, as a patriotic Scotsman and I say I am not a bit sorry that the formula is not incorporated in this Bill. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will see, as would the right hon. Member, that we get our full share, but that share should be arrived at by consideration of our needs and not by the consideration of a dead formula. How often have I heard the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) talking about the road programme and saying that the consideration should be based on our needs. So it is with education and other services.
  Mr. T. Fraser: The hon. Member has said that at present for education we are getting more than the Goschen formula. I think that is what he said.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I said, "by and large".
  Mr. Fraser: I am a little surprised, as it is not long since the hon. Member was in charge of the Education Department and he ought to know that we get exactly the same, not one penny more or less.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: The hon. Member is quite wrong—
  Mr. Fraser: No.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: He is quite wrong and I invite him to look up the facts. By and large, and I include and specify education in my inclusion, we should be considerably worse off under the Goschen formula than now. I should like the hon. Member to check his facts, because what he said is quite wrong. It is clear, at least to my understanding of this matter, that the Government undertake in introducing this Bill that there shall be no freezing of Government grants for these services or any unwillingness to assist proper and well-considered developments in future. I do not think the run of the debate has challenged or overturned that view.
  The main criticism in the debate has centred upon the twin issues of whether it is right and wise in the national interest to throw upon local authorities the full responsibility for spending all their income, and whether in so doing we will thereby increase the freedom and efficiency of local authority administration and in consequence stimulate and excite local interest in the work they now do.
  In dealing with these matters we are dealing with human beings. The personal factor enters all the time into the composition of local authorities and the energy they apply. We all know that there are very different authorities throughout Scotland. Some are progressive, enlightened and responsible and some are not to the same extent. It is quite clear that as the Bill takes shape and action follows upon it there will be variations in the activities and successes of local authorities. Similarly, as in Aberdeen, the financial situation at first may appear different in one district compared with another. These are the growing pains of a new system, but I feel fairly sure from what little experience I have had that in future, as at present, we will see generally a steady rising of the standards of local authority administration as a result of this Measure.
  286
  What about the problem of freedom? Freedom goes with responsibility. To examine that I take the case of education, mentioned by the hon. Member for Fife, West, who is an educational expert and who, with respect, I congratulate on his knowledge of this matter. He knows as well as I do, although I do not think the hon. and learned Member for Paisley who opened the debate understands, that education and the education service in the County of Fife or anywhere else does not perform a single routine job. The service of education is an infinite variety of services, as everyone must know.
  I will list two or three of the different things which are the concern of the director of education for the County of Fife. He is concerned with school building, school repairs, curriculum, methods of teaching, further education, classes—a hundred and one different things which all come under the broad umbrella of "education". For years past the Secretary of State has had his code laying down the standards under which the administration is carried out in the schools. That code will continue, but with the general grant at the beginning of a one-year or two-year period, rather than a series of percentage grants after the work has been done, it seems to me that opportunity will arise for the expression in various local authorities of preferences for individual developments which at present they are not able to undertake.
  I have a little knowledge of that and I ask the House seriously to consider it. I assure hon. Members that, so far as I understand the situation, if this scheme were in operation and a county council had the assurance at the beginning of the period of one year or two years that a certain amount of money was available to the county authority, the education committee would be able to undertake many tasks which it is not able to do now and, maybe, to hold back others. It would take a broader view. For example, inflation is a matter of supreme concern to county council convenors. Every convenor will be considering priorities. In Fife we have decided that that should be so, and Fife is not a Tory county council.
  The Fife convenor had said that it is the duty of the county council to reconsider its priorities. Is not that right? Might it not be, therefore, that with this

  287
  block grant the authority will, for the first time, consider its services as one great undertaking and not as a series of separate, individual undertakings—education, health, whatever it may be? I see the finance committee of the county council—indeed, the whole county council—for the first time getting this broad picture of its responsibility, and saying to itself: "What is the prime need of our county at this time?" If that prime need is hampered, manacled as it were by percentage grants, the judgment of the authority is bound to be warped: but if the authority has this general grant—£500,000, £1 million, £2 million, whatever the sum may be—and knows that it can spend it as it thinks right in its wisdom, it must be good for local government, and must stimulate interest.
  I am sure that there will be tremendous discussion between one county council committee and another, but we should not be afraid of that. We should welcome it. If it were so now in Fife, the whole county would be much more interested in the work of the authority than it is today. It is because things so often go through county councils with so little interest or discussion—tied as they all are to the present grants—that there is so much apathy among electors. I believe that if they are given a chance to operate this scheme, those local authorities that are now so reluctant to see its advantages will thank heaven that they are being given the chance to undertake it. It may well be in fact that my right hon. Friend may go down in history as one of the great Scottish Secretaries for this work that he has done.
  7.42 p.m.
  Dr. J. Dickson Mabon: I believe that the hon. Baronet the Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) will, as long as he is alive, always epitomise the spirit of George Orwell. That is my impression after listening to his latest speech. I want to be respectful to him, but the amount of double talk there has been is confusing. If we take his point, not the one about the present Secretary of State being one of the great ones—I would not be discourteous enough to discuss that at present—but the one about priorities, he has tried to argue that these services, because of the block grants, will have committee against committee and that this is a good way of
  288
  getting local authorities to determine the priority of the services.
  I should like to ask the hon. Baronet, as someone so much interested in education, whether he really believes that local government, with all its various interests, will find a proper place for education in almost every instance?
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I do.
  Dr. Mabon: The hon. Baronet says that he does. In education in Scotland we have seen a substantial variation in practice between authorities, some advancing reasonable programmes and others very unreasonable ones.
  I do not want to argue the generalities of this. I want to concentrate on a specific issue that the hon. Baronet and I know very well. If other hon. Members do not know about it, I am sure that they receive enough letters about it, and will, therefore, be able to follow my argument on this isolated point. I want to speak about student grants. I argue not whether the grants are good or bad, not their general level, but simply the practice in the award of student grants.
  Under the present system in Scotland it is possible for two boys, coming from families with similar incomes and with similar family commitments, sitting in the same class in the same university, with precisely the same educational qualifications, to get different grants. One can get half as much again as the other, and the only reason is that they happen to live in different counties.
  The present Regulations lay it down that, in awarding a grant to a student, a committee shall be guided by certain principles; and that within the seven categories of assessment, three are precise minimum categories laid down by the Secretary of State, and the four others are categories where the discretion of the committee can be exercised. The hon. Baronet knows this very well, because on many occasions he has answered Questions that I have put to him, and, indeed, when Joint Under-Secretary of State, he was kind enough to write me a very long letter in which he made it perfectly clear that the practice of education committees varied substantially, and, while one might hold one's own opinions of the awards that were made by committees, there was no doubt that certain students were getting a tiny grant, and certainly not

  289
  getting the justice that many of their confreres from other counties were receiving.
  How will that be affected by this Bill? Will it mean that the members of the committees will be encouraged to make awards higher than the present ones? In other words, will there be a move towards justice? There might be, in the sense of an equality of misery, as committees seek to cut down the amount of money given. For example, when the committees sit to discuss the, various grants, and there is a discriminatory point, and they have to save money, clearly they will use that point to save money.
  At one juncture I brought up with the hon. Baronet the question of certain textbooks, and he was kind enough to look into the matter of supplying textbooks for various students. The fact is that there are some authorities—I think that he would agree with me in supporting those authorities—which award the cost of certain prescribed textbooks to certain students. Some authorities do not, because the minimum Regulations do not necessarily prescribe in exact terms the awards that can be given in this regard. I think that, clearly, this is an educational matter that will be substantially affected by the Bill.
  The Secretary of State tried to argue, in his opening remarks, that these minimum standards would be preserved by Clause 3. To a certain extent, that is true. It also means that the Secretary of State cannot do without Clause 3 because he recognises that certain authorities would not obey the minimum standards. Why should it be that local authorities have to have such a sanction Clause as that put against them? The answer is clear. It is because there are some local authorities—shame on them!—which would not observe the minimum standards. Therefore, there has to be this sanction upon them. Surely he will be willing to admit the argument that follows from that, that since the minimum is not necessarily the only desirable scheme it follows that we are anxious to see that all authorities shall provide the desirable, where possible, and not just the minimum.
  Perhaps the hon. Baronet believes, as he said, that there would be no difference here in the moneys given to local authorities, that this situation may not arise, but for one, cannot believe that local
  290
  authorities will be taken out of the wood financially by the passage of this Bill. I believe that in the oncoming years we have to face a margin of rising costs. As long as we have full employment, it appears at present that we shall always have a tendency for the value of money to fall. Although it is certainly the duty of Governments to stabilise it, I do not think that they can always guarantee a plateau—the Prime Minister's ambition at one time—of money value. We shall have this tendency for the value of money to drop, which means an increasing embarrassment for local authorities, particularly in the light of what is, in effect, the strait-jacket of the block grant. Even if the grant is reviewed in two years, it can, nevertheless, be a serious embarrassment to local authorities. If it is an embarrassment to these authorities, it means that, instead of being compelled by the nation, by the Scottish people themselves, to observe certain standards with the enticement of the percentage grant system, they have the freedom to select their own priorities. Does the hon. Baronet believe that there are not authorities in Scotland which will neglect the interests of education?
  I want to make a very important point about education that has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) in relation to this debate. The Bill, which concerns itself so much with local authority services—and so much is affected in our system of education—comes at a time when the Prime Minister is unable to be in the House because he is discussing in Paris, with fifteen member-Governments of the N.A.T.O. alliance, the question of technical advance and technical skill in the Atlantic Community. The Bill is a "pre-Sputnik" Bill, a Bill designed to face a situation which existed before the Russian technological advance made itself so demonstrably plain to us all ten weeks ago.
  Instead of education being just one matter among the others in local government service, and the people in local government themselves being able to decide whatever priority they like to apply to it, education has suddenly become a matter of the greatest priority for the nation. It is now the greatest challenge which this or any other Government will have to face. I remember very well the

  291
  debate on the White Paper on Technical Education, and I am willing to accept that hon. Members on all sides believed what they said then, that the country has a tremendous challenge to face. Even the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his recent economy measures, did not touch the technical education programme; even he hesitated to cut down that programme, which we know is in many ways, even in Scotland, inadequate to our needs. The Bill now before us could, in Scotland, be very damaging to the number of students we have and, certainly, to the quality of education they receive.
  In order to square its police account or its fire service deficit—whatever it may me—a local authority might well consider manoeuvring itself into a position where it received the full grant but did not have the requisite number of teachers or the number of obligations for certain other services within education. That might happen. There is no reason why the functioning of education could not proceed thus. It is reasonable to argue that the Bill transfers the control of education primarily from the nation and the education committee to the gentlemen of the county finance committee, and we know what niggardly little men some of those county finance committee men may be. We have only to look at some of the counties in Scotland to see that.
  Reasonable arguments may be put forward, perhaps, for places like Ross and Cromarty, or Banff, as the hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Duthie) himself mentioned; they have their own peculiar difficulties. But there are powerful authorities in the central belt of Scotland which have a poor record in education. The hon. Member for Fife, East knows that as well as I do, and he knows in his heart that he could name them. It is not because they do not have the money, but because they do not have the will. We see this kind of discrepancy in grants all over the country, in many other ways, which I am sure educationalists could cite.
  Mr. T. Fraser: In the constituency of the Secretary of State, for instance?
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: I, like the hon. Member for Fife, East, do not wish to become contentious or controversial at this juncture—if I may adopt the
  292
  "double-talk" of the hon. Baronet the Member for Fife, East.
  The hon. Member for Fife, East, in argument with my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser), said that the percentage grants were not being abolished. Surely, he means that they are not, in effect, being abolished. Clause 1—
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: The percentage grants are being abolished.
  Dr. Dickson Mallon: Yes, but the hon. Gentleman maintained that, in effect, they were not.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart Sir J. Henderson-Stewart indicated dissent.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: Yes, I listened to the exchange in argument. If the hon. Member for Fife, East examines the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will find that he has badly misrepresented himself at this point. He said that the percentage grants would not—I am interpolating the words "in effect"—be abolished. Yet Clause 1 points out that the general grant takes the place of the various grants referred to in the First Schedule.
  Mr. Ross: The hon. Gentleman said that it does not alter the percentage.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: Yes. That comment, from which I am glad to find that the hon. Member for Fife, East, if he did make it, now retreats, follows the same line of argument which he put forward about the Goschen formula. It is entertaining to hear all these pronouncements and then watch the retreats which follow them, but it does not do justice to the argument which is advanced at the particular time.
  It seems to me a very great tragedy that a Bill like this should be before the House at this time, a tragedy not only from the educational standpoint but also in that the Bill will go to a Scottish Standing Committee which may well not include all the Scottish Members of the House. Whatever our views may be on this matter, there is no doubt that what is proposed in the Bill radically affects every Member of Parliament representing a Scottish constituency. I believe that there is not a single hon. Member who could not make a speech on this matter showing how it affects his own community and how, in the long run, it will

  293
  upset the balance of good local government. I cannot understand how it can be thought at all advisable for this matter to go to a truncated Committee which cannot represent the interests of all hon. Members who have these important matters to discuss.
  Is it not unfair to claim that we have a crisis in local government finance which calls for a remedy of this kind when, in truth, the crisis has, to a large extent, been caused by Government policy? The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) talked about the rates being trebled since 1938, and the hon. Member for Fife, East spoke about the great alarm felt throughout industry and the community at the rising burden of taxation and rating. The fact is, however, that about £35 million have been added in the payment of interest on debts incurred by local authorities to the Government since 1951 as a simple consequence of the high interest rate policy pursued by the Government.
  No matter how many Bills of this kind are introduced to try to solve the problems of local government finance in Scotland, we come back each time to the fact that the Government's economic policy dominates the scene, and in this, as in every other context, distorts the pattern of our democratic life.
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. C. N. Thornton-Kemsley: The hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon), like other hon. Members—indeed, like almost every hon. Member opposite—has expressed his belief that local authorities in Scotland are both unable and unwilling to help education as education ought to be helped.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon Dr. Dickson Mabon rose—
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: The hon. Gentleman has already made his speech.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: But the hon. Gentleman has misrepresented me on the point. I am not trying to suggest that of all local authorities, but I said it of some local authorities, making a specific point of repeating that.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Let us accept that straight away, that the hon. Member for Greenock and other hon. Members who spoke from the benches opposite this evening have taken the line that some
  294
  local authorities are both unable and unwilling to help education in the way that it ought to be helped. It has been rather striking that every hon. Member opposite who spoke has taken a line quite different—I do not blame them—from the line taken by the official spokesman speaking from the Front Bench opposite this afternoon.
  The hon. and learned Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston) said that not for years has there been proper local government in Scotland; that it has been only local administration. He deplored this, saying that it was a bad thing and that we ought to think again about local government, giving back some powers to local authorities. This from the spokesman of the party of centralisers. This from the spokesman of the party which took away the powers of local authorities in electricity and gas undertakings and all sorts of other ways. This from the party which has consistently maintained that the gentlemen in Whitehall know best.
  Hon. Members: Nonsense.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Undoubtedly, there has in Scotland, as there has throughout the United Kingdom, been a decline in the power of local authorities since the war and a decline in the interest taken in local government. There is not one of us in this House who does not know that it is becoming more and more difficult to get the right men and women to offer themselves to stand for local government bodies. It is a great pity. It is not only to do with the functions exercised by local authorities but is to do, to some extent, with economic pressures and difficulties of a private nature, and so on, but it is a fact. I was impressed by the statement of my hon. Friend the Member for Pollok (Mr. George) that in Scotland recently 60 per cent. of the local government returns were unopposed. That is not a good thing.
  One remedy for the lack of interest in local affairs, for the lack of candidates and for the low polls at local elections, would be to grant to local authorities the kind of powers that might have had to be exercised by regions during the war had there been a complete break-up of the central Government administration owing to invasion or

  295
  intense bombing, against which we made plans.
  If we were forced into a system of regionalisation, it would undoubtedly stimulate great interest in local government, because it would indeed be government which was local, and it would be the only kind of government known to the citizens of that part of Great Britain. None of us, however, wants to go as far as that, and for two reasons. Broadly, we want uniformity of service and we want the safeguards to progress which can only be ensured by Government oversight of the strategy of policy. An alternative would be to take the first step towards a substantial move over to treating local authorities as grown-up beings. That is what the Government are doing in the Bill.
  I was very impressed by my right hon. Friend's revelations in his opening speech this afternoon that two-thirds of all the help given to local authorities in Scotland is in the form of percentage grants.
  Mr. Willis: Not in Edinburgh.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: The figures differ, of course, between counties of cities and the counties. They differ very much between the counties themselves.
  The figures were given in a Written Answer to a Question which is printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT of 25th November this year, from which it will be seen that of 31 counties in Scotland, no less than 13 had over 60 per cent. of their expenditure met by Government grants. In the case of three of them, the percentage of expenditure received in grants from the Government exceeds 75 per cent.
  Mr. Ross: We are all aware of that. It is only fair that the hon. Member should name those counties so that the House should realise how exceptional they are.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: The three counties are Zetland, Ross and Cromarty, and Sutherland. There is nothing extraordinary about that. These counties all happen to have between 75 and 79 per cent. of their expenditure met, or had it met in the last year for which figures are available, by Government grants.
  296
  In these circumstances, human nature being what it is, there is on all local authorities, and particularly on those which receive a high percentage of their expenditure in the form of Government grants, a temptation to spend lavishly so as to have the satisfaction of being thought to be progressive and enlightened. That was illustrated not many minutes ago, when the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. Hamilton) spoke about some local authorities being progressive and enlightened and the others being wooden-heads and laggards. The kind of test that the hon. Member would apply is, I have no doubt, the extent to which they spend other people's money in the service of the population whom they represent.
  I would be against a system in which there is a general grant based on existing expenditure. In fact, what the Government propose is not that it should be based on existing expenditure, but that it should be based, first, on the needs of the area. These are set out clearly in Clause 2 of the Bill, of the contents of which we cannot too frequently remind ourselves.
  First, the Government have to take into consideration the latest information available about the rate of expenditure in the local authority area and the current level of prices, costs and remuneration, together with any future variation in the level which can be foreseen. Secondly, in assessing what the total of the general grant should be, they have to take into account any probable fluctuation in the demand for the services; and, thirdly, the need for developing these services.
  These factors are particularly relevant to the expenditure upon education, it has already been said today that it is no good blinking the fact that organised education throughout Scotland is against the proposals in the Bill. That is unfortunate and it is, I think, largely because insufficient weight has been given to the provisions of Clause 2. For example, in assessing the general grant, the Government have to take into account the present expenditure on education and the possible fluctuations in needs so that the "bulge"—the raising of the school population—is taken account of, together with the need for developing the service. We all know—the Government have emphasised it time and time again—how important it is that education should

  297
  develop progressively, particularly nowadays, as more than one hon. Member has said this afternoon, in its technical aspects.
  I should like to ask these questions. Do educationists really think that education can be run better from St. Andrew's House than from the council chamber? The hon. Member for Greenock quite clearly believes that education is run better from St. Andrew's House. That is, again, the mentality of "the gentlemen in Whitehall know best". Secondly, is it the belief of educationists that locally elected representatives of the people are not capable of running the schools properly? If so, if they really believe that, they are condemning themselves for a failure to educate the people in the importance of education.
  Are educationists afraid that in circumstances where local authorities will have the most animated discussions in the council chamber concerning the relative needs of education, housing, health, and so on, education will inevitably suffer? The majority of electors are parents. Do educationists really believe that they will put up with a council which neglects the needs of education for their children?
  Mr. Hamilton: They do.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I have not that mistrust of local government which educationists are displaying at present. I want to give the local authorities more scope to decide how the proceeds of the rates and of the general grant should be spent. I want them to explain and to defend their proposals not only in open council reported fully, but to the electors who send them back to the council chamber. I believe that in that way local government will be government and will attract a lively interest in local affairs.
  It has been fashionable tonight on both sides of the House, I am sorry to say, to criticise the Government for presenting this Bill. I do not do that, and I am sorry that so many of my hon. Friends have taken the occasion of this debate to make their criticism—though, of course, it is right if they feel that way. For my part, I think that the Government have shown great courage and sound sense in going ahead with what they believe to be right in spite of opposition in influential quarters. If one has made up one's mind to do what the national interests require
  298
  it is right to stand up to sectional interests however respectable those sectional interests may be. So I welcome the Bill and I congratulate the Government upon their courage and wisdom in presenting it.
  8.12 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: It is surprising that the hon. Member for North Angus (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) welcomes controversy about education in council chambers, but seems to deplore it when it comes from his hon. Friends in this Chamber. He made a fascinating speech, containing all the usual phrases about freedom and greater scope for this and that, but I began to wonder what it had to do with the Bill. I do not want to do the hon. Gentleman an injustice, for he is one of the few hon. Members opposite who read Bills, but I began to wonder whether he had read this one.
  The hon. Member said that we on this side of the House are the party of centralisation, and he repeatedly posed the question whether education is better run from St. Andrew's House than from a local council chamber. Can it be? What does the Bill say? It says that the Government are going out of their way to amend Section 1 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946. The Fourth Schedule says that the head man at St. Andrew's House, the Secretary of State.
  "may make regulations prescribing the standards to which every education authority shall conform in exercising their functions under this section."
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: There is nothing new in that.
  Mr. Ross: Whether the hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) believes it or not, this is something new to be put into the 1946 Act, for the Fourth Schedule writes those words into the 1946 Act as a new subsection in Section 1.
  That Schedule also proposes to write into the Act of 1946 default powers, so that if the Secretary of State does not think a local authority has done the right thing he at St. Andrew's House, the great centraliser, can require the local authority to do it. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that a local authority can at present, if it likes, contribute to the expenditure of a university? But not after this Bill passes. After this Bill

  299
  passes, with this and other amendments which the Bill makes to the present law, the Secretary of State will decide whether and when and how much a local authority will contribute to a university. The great centraliser will do that.
  There is one thing about which I do agree with the hon. Member for Fife, East, and that is that this is one of the most important Scottish Bills we have had in recent years; and we have had one or two important ones in the last Session or two. It will affect every person in Scotland, the ratepayers, the taxpayers, parents and children. It will affect even births, marriages and deaths.
  I counsel my hon. Friends that this Bill will be considered by a Committee in which back bench Members will be denied their right to speak for their constituents. I am hoping to find a great wave of self-denial amongst some of my hon. Friends in opting out of serving on the Committee on this Bill; but we shall see about that.
  I do not think that there has been an adequate analysis of the problems of local government, certainly not by the Secretary of State. We are told that one of the reasons for the Bill is that
  "The total of grants has in recent post-war years for the first time overtaken the total of rates, and become the major element in local government finance. … It is most important to reduce this dependence of local government on Exchequer grants if it can possibly be done."
  The hon. Gentleman was right when he posed the question about the Exchequer grant and the rates, but he did not go nearly far enough.
  How has the matter arisen? Local authorities existed before a properly established central authority. The local authorities carried on and developed their traditional rights as almost independent governments within their localities. The growth of central Government has been such that the Government have had to find agencies to carry out work for national needs. The agencies they found were the local authorities. So the local authorities have had two functions. One is to carry on their old, traditional, independent local government, many of the functions of which have grown into national functions. For instance, the care of the sick has ceased to be a local responsibility and
  300
  has become a national responsibility. Thus the local authorities act as agents for the Government, the second of their two functions.
  There are two aspects of the freedom of local authorities about which there is so much talk. There is the freedom from statutory control. It is no good the Government's passing Bills about education unless they take statutory powers to ensure that what they want done will be carried out throughout the country. If they take that very far they have to pay their share of the cost of it.
  The same thing is true of the other services listed for Exchequer grant—health services, fire services. There was no statutory obligation relating to fire services before the war. Will anyone say that it is not necessary? Let him come to South Ayrshire and to the town of Girvan. A few years ago there was not a town hall or a railway station because there was not a fire brigade. They did not believe in providing money for a fire brigade. Other services are for road safety, school crossing patrols, physical training—but they are only some of them. The question arises how these are to be paid for.
  Old, independent local authorities' revenues are not as they were. Once upon a time the wealth of a man determined the value of the property he occupied. The wealthier a man was the bigger was his house, and the local authority levied a rate accordingly. That is not so today. We have had this change in population, in the wealth of the country and in the revenue of the country. What has caused it? The tendency nowadays is not for the wealthy man to live in the biggest house because of the change in social environments. He lives in a house that can be managed. Directors of companies are living in much smaller houses than foremen.
  There are parts of Scotland where people living in council houses are paying higher rates than the people who employ them. The point has been made that rates have only doubled and that national taxation, including indirect taxation, has gone up much more. That is because national taxation is based on national income and the national income has risen much more than the rateable values.
  When we examine this matter what do we find? In one investigation it was

  301
  found that 88 per cent. of local revenue gained through rates comes from households where, after taxation, the income was £500. In other words, generally speaking the poorer people are paying the greater share of local taxation. The people who can afford to pay Income Tax and Surtax are not paying the most.
  Contrary to what the hon. Member for North Angus has said, we have loaded the local authorities with tremendous powers and responsibilities, to such an extent that they are complaining about it and cannot possibly finance it out of an outmoded system of raising revenue and taxation. I think that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston) was right to deal with this point at the start, because it is fundamental. We accept that it has to be dealt with by rates and taxation. We do not say that the ratepayer should pay a higher share than at present. Everything goes to prove that national revenue should pay a higher share in respect of national services than ever before. This is the parting of the ways. If the burden is shifted, and legislation is passed which will enable the burden to be shifted, it means that local revenues will be raised in many cases for national purposes. Education is a national purpose.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon), in a thoughtful speech, quoted the case of technical education, an expanding service. It is a national service and it is unfair to pass legislation which will enable that to be put on the shoulders of local ratepayers to the benefit of those who should bear the greater responsibility.
  I expected this from the Secretary of State. There never has been a confidence trickster who proclaimed his confidence trick to the people he proposed to dupe. There have always been high-sounding phrases concealing the true purpose and this Bill is, to my mind, a cowardly confidence trick.
  We are told that the Bill seeks to provide for the freedom of the local authority and for a greater measure of control. Two things determine that freedom—the financing and the statutory powers. One can tinker as much as one likes with the finance and shift the burden from one side to the other, but the statutory powers remain and have been
  302
  reinforced by the Bill. If the Kilmarnock or Ayr County Council decides to build five new schools they will still have to go to St. Andrew's House and to the Minister, the great centraliser. He will still either authorise it or not. If we want to develop something new and something that has not been allowed before, would they be allowed to do it under this Measure?
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I do not see why they should not be allowed to do it. It will be within the general grant.
  Mr. Ross: But it is not brought into the calculation when the general grant is fixed. The hon. Member will find from Clause 2 that any expenditure for which a grant was not paid before 1959 will not enter into the calculations when the grant is made.
  Mr. Niall Macpherson: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will read Clause 2.
  Mr. Ross: Clause 2 reads:
  "In fixing the aggregate amount of the general grants for any year the Secretary of State shall take into consideration—
  (a) the latest information available to him of the rate of relevant expenditure (excluding, unless the Secretary of State with the consent of the Treasury otherwise determines, any expenditure of a description in respect of which no grant has been paid for any year ending before the sixteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and fifty-nine) …"
  That is exactly what I said.
  Mr. Macpherson: That is not quite accurate. There are the very important words in parentheses:
  "unless the Secretary of State … otherwise determines."
  Mr. Ross: Once again, the Minister is the great centraliser. In this case, the local authorities have no power at all. They are down on their knees crawling before the Secretary of State, the Huey Long of Gourock. He still approves and authorises and still gives and withholds his consent, and the frown of the Secretary of State still counts for everything in this matter.
  Dr. Dickson Mabon: The hon. Member has done a very great injustice to Gourock. The Secretary of State comes from Kilmacolm.
  Mr. Ross: I think that he represents Gourock. My hon. Friend forgets the great speech made by the Secretary of

  303
  State for Scotland, who envisaged that one day there would not be my kindly right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) in charge, but someone like Huey Long. When we examine the historical relationship in the matter of paying for these services we find that the block grant is nothing new. It has been proposed and introduced before. But it has always been proposed in order to save money; and that has been said. The May Committee, the Geddes Committee, and the rest have declared that the purpose was to save money.
  When the White Paper on Local Government Finance in Scotland was introduced, I think it was The Times, in a leading article, which said that the White Paper meant sense only if the Government were determined to save money. Anyone who reads the White Paper and learns about all this manoeuvring as to what paragraph 17 says will appreciate that what is intended is to save money. This is a limited liability Bill for the Government, limiting their liability and not being concerned at all with what happens to local authorities.
  As far as I can see, the only thing that can be saved to anyone by means of the Bill is the saving of a certain amount of checking up that is done in relation to the percentage grant, but we should not forget that in the calculation of the general grant there will be ever so much more checking up of details. The situation will be worse. All the fortune tellers in the country will be needed. A start will have to be made long beforehand on the calculations for the following year, but the grant determined by those calculations is to last at least two years and account must be taken of running costs.
  How can those costs be calculated two years ahead? Those responsible will only know the cost for the previous year, and the cost for the following year will be based upon that. There will be a set of crystal-gazers in St. Andrew's House. I do not know how expensive they will be, but they certainly will be expensive for the ratepayers.
  The Government, however, say that they have powers to make an interim payment. So they have. We shall see about that when we come to the Committee stage of the Bill. The Government
  304
  had better ask the farmers who have to haggle over and over again when the February Price Review comes round. Now we are to have a local authorities' price review, and how often have the farmers been able to persuade the Government that prices have gone up so much that they should have more assistance?
  This is a really fantastic situation. It conceals the true intention to cut percentage grants, because this new scheme will limit the Government's liabilities. Why has the percentage grant always been favoured by the local authorities, and why have efforts to wipe it out been resisted even by Conservative Governments in the past? It is because percentage grants are grants for priorities. In an expanding service the only way of ensuring that a desired scheme is carried out is to give a percentage grant and to grade percentages according to priorities.
  If we are really interested in education we must be concerned about this. We are dealing with £36 million of grants for Scotland, of which £33 million are due to education. Now all the facets of education are determined and controlled by the great centraliser and the high authority who used to be concerned with that kind of duty in another sphere. He is now back on this duty in St. Andrew's House.
  Let us face the fact that money can be saved under the general grant system, but the only people who can save money are those who are doing more than the great centraliser lays down. And they can save money only by reducing standards. This proposal is a reward for people who reduce standards and a penalty for those who raise them. But the great centraliser himself will not be concerned with anything other than the minimum. He will be concerned purely and simply with saving money; and this at a time when education and its expansion is of such importance to the nation in increasing its preparedness and fitness for the new technical age.
  Here we have a Government deciding in this sinister and underhand way to limit their liabilities and hand over to local authorities, saying to them, "You carry on with it. You increase your payments in relation to education", knowing quite well that, with the revenue-raising

  305
  structure which the Government have left to them, those authorities just cannot do it.
  One of the reasons for the frustration in local government at present is the fact that local authorities cannot now finance the burdens which they carry. Hon. Members opposite cannot have it both ways. They cannot say, "We are giving freedom to the local authorities; we can trust them", and at the same time, say to them, "You spend such and such an amount, knowing that someone else is paying two-thirds of it." The present situation is such that they cannot afford to increase their rates with the one-third which they will have to pay from the general rate.
  This Bill is a confidence trick. It is a shabby confidence trick. I hope sincerely that those hon. Gentlemen opposite who have the well-being of Scotland at heart will unite with us tonight to determine that we shall have fair play for the local authorities of Scotland in the work they are doing in respect of education and all the other things that will be jeopardised by the Bill.
  8.35 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: I have had the privilege of hearing every speech delivered in the House today, and I must confess that never in all my twelve and a half years' membership of this House have I heard a Bill so manhandled by both sides. On the Government side only two speeches have been made in unqualified support of the Bill, and if the Secretary of State were to give the least consideration to the attitude of the House and to the opinions which have been expressed on both sides, if he were to behave in a democratic fashion, only one course would be open to him, and that would be to rise when I finish and say that he proposes to withdraw this piece of legislation.
  Earlier in the day—and it seems more than a day; it feels more like a week—I heard the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) saying that she would put the point of view of Aberdeen before the House and that it was one which, without qualification, was; hostile to the Government. I want to give the House also, so far as I have ascertained it, the point of view of my own local authority. It is imperative that hon. Members should take note of
  306
  the views of their local authorities and give expression to them here.
  My own local authority submitted the consideration of this Bill to a subcommittee, which came strongly to the opinion that these proposals are completely unacceptable, in that they will greatly increase the financial difficulties already facing local authorities, and will operate to the serious detriment of the development of social and other services in the city. The sub-committee, therefore, called upon the Government not to proceed with legislation concerning the proposals.
  In reaching that decision the special sub-committee was guided and helped by four local authority officials of distinction which I think is not excelled in the whole of the United Kingdom. The subcommittee had the views of the City Assessor, the City Chamberlain, the Director of Education and, perhaps chief of all, the Town Clerk. The views of those four distinguished officials were clear. They felt that the Bill would be detrimental in every aspect to the interests of the City of Glasgow. Those are views which this House cannot afford to ignore.
  In the course of the debate a great deal of play has been made with the statement of the Secretary of State that the underlying purpose of the Bill is to give local authorities more independence. I take it that means more independence from the operations of the Secretary of State. I have taken the trouble to look through one or two other Bills in addition to this one. If one does it, even casually, it will be found that, in relation to the local authorities, the Secretary of State has power to direct them, to instruct them, to determine their course of action, to require of them what they shall do. He has power to decide what shall he done in certain circumstances. He has power to estimate and certify. He has power to make regulations and he has power to fix. My goodness! He is fairly fixing the local authorities now.
  Mr. Willis: And he has default powers.
  Mr. Rankin: Earlier today my hon. Friend the Member for Maryhill (Mr. Hannan) inadvertently referred to Mr. Speaker as Mr. Scotland. Mr. Scotland, with a tremendous array of powers, sits opposite in the guise of the Secretary of

  307
  State. He can do anything he likes with any local authority in Scotland at the moment and he does not propose to divest himself of one of those powers and pass it to any local authority. Most of the arguments which he and other hon. Members opposite made about greater independence for local authorities were sheer humbug.
  One of the fears which has been expressed by Glasgow is that the block grant will hinder the development of education. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) said, we are afraid of that because of our experience, because it has happened before. My hon. Friend mentioned the May Committee, and the Geddes Committee, but there was a third, the Ray Committee. Each of those used the block grant as a means of cutting expenditure.
  As a result of the Report of the Geddes Committee, teachers in Scotland—indeed, all over the United Kingdom—suffered a 10 per cent. reduction in their salaries. That general cut was applied in Glasgow, which was then under a Tory majority which carried it a step further and imposed a further 3¾ per cent. cut. As a result of the application of the block grant in previous years, teachers' salaries and educational services were cut to a very serious extent.
  That is one of the reasons why experience compels us to oppose this proposal. It is worth briefly enumerating some of the services which Glasgow educationists fear may be affected. I am now dealing not merely with the schools, but with the great services which are carried on outside ordinary school hours, the holiday camps, the residential schools, the junior clubs, the play centres, the further education centres, the adult education centres, the community clubs, the youth clubs, and services of that nature.
  They are all absolutely essential in a modern community and yet they have been described by Glasgow Tories as mere fripperies. Those are the things which are absolutely essential to the growing and developing child. Those are the services which may be cut back by the introduction of the block grant. I ask the Joint Under-Secretary to say whether the milk and meals services will suffer any interference; whether the milk service
  308
  will continue to receive a 100 per cent. grant.
  I should like to explore the position of nursery schools a little further, because the Joint Under-Secretary and I have been in communication on this matter. I want to say that he was quite helpful. These schools play a tremendously important part in the most formative years of a child's life. Viscount Falkland, a former governor of Wandsworth Prison, said that in his twenty years' experience of that great gaol he had come to the conclusion that the first six years of a person's life were far more important than the next sixty. He said that criminals were made in the cradle.
  This is the service which we are now starving in our schools, because the City of Glasgow has 52,000 children between the ages of two and five and it has only forty-one schools to deal with them while their mothers are at work—forty-one schools that have 1,600 of these children on the roll. There are 52,000 of them and if Glasgow had to deal with even half of that large number, it would need immediately 420 schools, assuming that the other 26,000 little tots could be properly cared for by other means. That is a service for which in the Report on Education, which we discussed recently, the Government could only say that last year one new nursery school was built. I do not want to go much further on that point, but it is an important fundamental service, and one that we ought to be thinking of expanding from its present inadequate state. Instead of that, it looks as if it is to contract it further.
  I should like to deal briefly with another problem which has been mentioned tonight. That is the problem of technological education. I ask the Secretary of State again: what is to be the position of technical education in these new proposals? The first intention was altogether to exclude grants for technical education from the new arrangement. It had to be treated separately because even the Secretary of State realised the danger that lay in placing technical education within the block grant system. Therefore, the first intention was to take it out, but I understand that the latest proposal is that expenditure on daytime courses of further education in each area will be pooled and spread equitably over the areas which benefit from it.

  309
  To take the position in Glasgow, how big is the area to be? There are people who come to Glasgow's schools in the evening, the technical colleges and so on, from all over the west of Scotland. Is the money which Glasgow gets to be spread over the whole of the west of Scotland? I hope that the Secretary of State will make clear the position of technical education within the block grant, because the latest proposal will not ensure that the appropriate and necessary assistance which should be forthcoming will go to the areas where developments are actually taking place.
  I pose the problem because at this moment Glasgow is planning an immense programme for the expansion of day-release colleges. We have been asking for these for years. Glasgow is now proposing to build three district and two central colleges which will deal with 2,000 students each per week. The whole scheme will cost million. Can Glasgow be assured by the Secretary of State tonight that that scheme—which will take some years to complete—will not suffer financially under this new arrangement for educational grants? I know that the day-release college is not necessarily a major contribution to the bigger problem which faces us on the technological side. Nevertheless, it is a beginning, at a lower level, and from that beginning we can expand.
  The urgency of the problem is shown by these figures. The number of first degrees awarded in engineering in Great Britain in 1955 was 2,313; in the United States of America it was 22,589, and in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics 53,000. In pure science, 4,999 degrees were awarded here; 23,600 were awarded in America, and 12,000 in Russia. We can also see the concentration in Russia upon the engineering side. Last year the number of engineering graduates put out by Russia from higher technological institutes was 71,000, and 35,000 of those were women. In America, the figure was about 50,000. In Great Britain it was 7,000—and that figure included engineering graduates of all kinds; first degrees and higher degrees. If we had been merely keeping our place it should have been double that figure at the very least.
  By 1960, Russia proposes to increase that 71,000 to 96,000. Has the Secretary
  310
  of State any comparable plans for Scotland along those lines? I am not thinking in terms of Sputniks. To some people these may be important, but to my mind the really important fact and the fact that should be of major significance to everyone, is that the lack of technicians capable of improving British living standards may become a very serious matter if we go on cramping education as is proposed under the Bill.
  Mr. George Mr. George indicated dissent.
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Member for Pollok (Mr. George) shakes his head. He was not in the Chamber when I began speaking. He did not hear the reason I gave. Hon. Members on this side of the House, as well as some hon. Members opposite, have given figures to show how it will be restricted. We are pursuing this cramping policy at a time when we ought to be expanding in every department, not merely in the academic sphere, where I want to see expansion, but also in science and technology, where we are facing tremendous competition, and where I am afraid that we are falling very far behind.
  I do not see anything in the attitude of the Government which gives hope that they have a policy to meet the situation in which we are now living. Their policy can be described only as a "phutnik", and I hope that hon. Members opposite who have expressed views not dissimilar to those of my hon. Friends will come into the Lobby with us tonight and vote against the Second Reading.
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. Walter Elliot: Although occasionally it was straggling, our debate today has certainly covered a field of great interest to us all. Undoubtedly, it has pivoted round the block grant. The hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Rankin) said that fears were expressed about the block grant because of previous experience. The hon. Gentleman chose a singularly unfortunate example—
  Mr. Rankin: No, I did not.
  Mr. Elliot: Well, I will prove it.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to the Geddes Committee. I do not think that he can have remembered the precise circumstances of that time. They were

  311
  that the cut of 10 per cent. on teachers' salaries was not imposed as the of the block grant or, indeed by the Geddes Committee. It was imposed by the great Socialist Chancellor, Philip Snowden, who had been panic-stricken by the danger of inflation which was then so serious in the country that he and his Prime Minister broke up the Government because of it.
  The cut then was certainly not part of any kind of attack on education. It was part of a general proposal designed for the purpose of arresting inflation. Therefore, I think that the hon. Gentleman chose a bad example when he selected that one. The fall of the Labour Government and the bringing in of a Budget under which these cuts were imposed was the work of a Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer, Philip Snowden, who, as I said, had by that time begun to fear most terribly the danger of inflation. The danger before us today is not one of that kind at all.
  I have many friends who are teachers. I remember well the arguments addressed to me on many occasions by my friends in the teaching profession. One always hears such arguments in every controversy. I remember when the education service was placed under the control of the local authorities. I remember this House being bombarded by resolutions and demonstrations against it of all kinds. At that time, education was under the control of the special education authority, which had been brought into existence in Scotland and to which education had been entrusted.
  An eloquent plea was made today by the hon. and learned Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston); but the logical consequence of his speech was that education should be removed altogether from the control of the local authorities. That is the logical consequence of many of the arguments which have been advanced in this debate. One can always bring out a good case for something being done by a central instead of a local authority. Anything is better done by a central authority than by a local authority—except everything. If we destroy all the purposes of local authority, what is left for it to do?
  Local authority has already lost much—electricity, gas, the health services. It was, I think, a great severance when the
  312
  health service was taken from the local authority by a central authority, run entirely from central funds and administered by nominated committees instead of elected representatives. Strong arguments were advanced in favour of it, but I think that even right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite would not all uphold that solution with such vehemence today. But nobody is consistent in these matters.
  The responsibility for looking after those out of work and on outdoor relief has been transferred to the local offices of the National Assistance Board. I remember that transference well. I was responsible for a good deal of it. At the time I was denounced in the most unmeasured terms by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite for transferring this responsibility, and making it a centrally financed taxpayers' burden instead of a rate burden. I am afraid that views on these matters vary a great deal according to which side of the House the hon. Member who expresses them is sitting.
  I am not saying that this Bill is a perfect solution. I am not saying that it is the end of the story, but I do say that this is one of the last chances for local authorities. If local authorities cannot be trusted to administer education, what is it that they can be trusted to administer? The argument which has been advanced all evening is that local authorities are saying that they are not to be trusted with this responsibility, "Do not give us authority over this money, retain the control centrally". If that is so, what claim have local authorities to be entrusted with anything except simply administering the funds found by central administration?
  Many of the arguments have been about raising funds. The hon. and learned Member for Paisley brought forward arguments which also took way from the suggestion of local raising of funds to central raising of funds. He referred to the question of a local income tax for which Inland Revenue machinery would have to be used, for administration of local revenue, and would have to be taken over by local authorities. I am not saying that under modern conditions it is possible for local authorities to survive, but I think that we should do our best to give them a chance. We should do our best to try.

  313
  This is a great voluntary service which, traditionally, has been associated with the locality aid administered and financed by the locality. It is a dangerous course to embark upon to say that to entrust authority over the finances of this service to local authorities is a retrograde step, a step which should not be taken in the interests of education but that it should be kept here and that here we can be trusted, but not in the Town Council of Glasgow, in the Town Council of Aberdeen, or of Edinburgh.
  That is a very strange argument indeed. The hon. Member for Govan addressed to us an eloquent plea for education. Why does he think that his speech should be so much less effective if it is addressed to the Town Council of Glasgow, where there is a great majority of the Left, than if it is addressed here, where there is a majority of the Right?
  I do not think that the hon. Member is consistent in the arguments he brings forward. These are ad hoc arguments which, perhaps, stem from the genuine fear that in some way or other education is to be cut and a diminuation is to be made.
  Mr. Woodburn Mr. Woodburn indicated assent.
  Mr. Elliot: The right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), who formerly had great responsibility as Secretary of State for Scotland, affirms that fear. How can he, in face of the record of this Government? Whereas the best figure for school places in a year that he could produce was 20,000, we have produced 36,000. How can he claim that the people who produced 36,000 places are cutting down education? It does not seem to make sense.
  Mr. Woodburn: The children had not grown up then.
  Mr. Elliot: New facilities had to be found by us. It was part of the claim of hon. Members opposite that we would not provide facilities for the children who were growing up. At any rate, a valiant effort, a successful effort, was made to cope with the situation. The situation was coped with.
  I am much more afraid of the figures which were given by the hon. Member for Govan, which we have very much in our minds. It is quite true that the figures relating to technical education in
  314
  Russia are far more than those in this country, even proportionately; so are the figures in the United States. The danger does not arise in the early years, but in the fact, as has been repeated again and again, that two-thirds of those who go into our secondary schools escape from them at the earliest possible moment when not prevented by the policeman.
  That is the accusation that we should deal with. And I can give the hon. Gentleman the answer—or, at least, the answer given in Soviet Russia. The answer is—incentives. The incentive to someone who goes through the toil, the drudgery and the discipline of higher education is five, ten, fifteen, twenty times as high as in this country. Let the hon. Gentleman compare the wages of the manual worker with those of the teacher, the engineer, or the professor in this country, and then compare the wages of the manual labourer with those of the professor, a skilled engineer—or even a ballet dancer—in Soviet Russia. The multiple is many, many times. And there is, in addition, every kind of advantage given, advantages against which there would be the utmost outcry if they were launched in this country. The Soviet Union has gone all out for incentives—it may be right or it may be wrong in that, but it is producing results.
  As I know that the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) wishes to have time to speak, I will not speak at length on this now, but I really do speak with some experience of these matters. Many and many a time, when I was in the Administration, all kinds of people with whom I was working have said, "For goodness' sake, give us a little money and let us go away. We will use it far better than if every penny we spend is checked and counter-checked, accounted for, scrutinised, audited and summed up by the auditors in your Department."
  I remember Lord Boyd-Orr, when running the Rowett Research Institute at Bucksburn, which we all know very well, saying, "I will take half the money if I can have it in a box, and not have to bother with all the checks and counterchecks that I have to go through with the Department of Agriculture." There is something to be said for that point of view.

  315
  I am not saying that this Bill is the ideal solution, but it is a solution that carries with it very important implications for the future of local government, and for the future of education. The House should think twice, and three times, before rejecting it, as I ask it not to do tonight.
  9.7 p.m.
  Mr. Thomas Fraser: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Mr. Walter Elliot) will pardon me if I do not continue the discussion on the salaries of ballet dancers or professors—or even the humble labourers—in the Soviet Union, but rather address myself to the Bill before the House. Until the right hon. Gentleman spoke, not one Conservative Member had given unqualified support to the Measure, and the right hon. Gentleman himself did not make it very obvious to any of us that he was, in fact, addressing his remarks to the Bill.
  The Bill had unqualified support only from the National Liberals. There is complete unanimity amongst them that it is a good Bill. That is terribly important. We have the National Liberals saying, with one voice, "This is a good Bill." The Tories, however, until the right hon. Gentleman spoke, have, for the most part, been opposed to it.
  The hon. Baronet the Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) was so full of praise of his right hon. Friend that I am sure the Secretary of State must have been somewhat embarrassed. The hon. Member for Fife, East said that he would not be at all surprised if the present holder of the office went down in history as the greatest Secretary of State there had ever been, because he had introduced this Bill.
  What is the purpose of the Bill? I think it not a bad idea to look at that. The purpose is to continue the process of transferring a financial burden from the taxpayers to the ratepayers. That is what it does. This process has been going on for some years now, and is continued by this Measure. If that is not its purpose, it is, at least, the effect. It transfers the burden from the taxpayers, as I have said, easing the burden on those taxed according to the more equitable system and increasing the burden on those who con-
  316
  tribute under the less equitable system of taxation.
  There is no hon. Member present when the percentage grants were introduced, not even the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove, who did not feel obliged to provide them to enable local authorities to maintain their service, and who did not always boast of the size of the percentage grant because it would be of such great advantage to local authorities and to the country as a whole—always because national taxation is a more equitable system of taxation than local taxation. That has been the justification for the movement over the years towards a greater contribution to local services from central government, coupled with the fact, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston) said, that local government has more and more ceased to be local government and has become local administration. Because we here have been determining policies, we have not been leaving it to local authorities to decide what they would spend their money on but have decided what they should spend their money on, encouraging them so to spend it by giving them percentage grants. No one can deny that that is exactly what has happened.
  Another of the purposes of the Bill—we ought not to be mealy-mouthed, and there is no reason why the Secretary of State should not be quite honest about it—is to steal back to the Exchequer the advantages local authorities would otherwise derive from the rerating of industry. Is that not so? The rerating of industry, to the extent provided for in the Bill, would yield to the local authorities of Scotland, so says the Secretary of State, an additional income of £2·3 million a year. It is necessary, then, for the Secretary of State to claw back some of the money which would go to the local authorities. How could he do it? In one of two ways. He could reduce the percentage grants payable for the existing services, or abolish the lot and introduce a general grant.
  Will the Secretary of State deny that, if he had not abolished percentage grants and had still insisted on clawing back to the Exchequer two-thirds of the advantages which would otherwise have gone to the local authorities by the rerating of industry to the extent provided for, he

  317
  could have done it otherwise than try reducing the percentage grants? The Government did not have the courage to reduce the percentage grants in respect of these many services, and they have, in fact, pretended that the Bill is giving additional money to local authorities.
  The fact is that the Bill most definitely takes money from the local authorities. It gives nothing to them but takes something away. It is a shabby way of taking it back. The Government aught to have been more straightforward about it and said, "We intend to reduce the various grants". But not at all do they do that. 'They abolish the lot and steal back from the local authorities the money which the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George) says that the local authorities ought to have from the industrialists in their areas. Industrialists will pay a little more in rates under the present. Bill, but the central Government will claw back 2d. from every 3d. extra that the industrialists pay to local authorities. This is a shabby way to treat those in local government who had been led to believe that the rerating of industry would be of some advantage to them.
  The Secretary of State repeated this afternoon that the underlying purpose of the Bill, so he says, is to give local authorities more power over their own affairs. This surely is hypocrisy. No additional power over their own affairs is given to local authorities by the Bill, and there are many examples, which have been cited by my hon. Friends today, of local authorities, under the Bill, having less power over their own affairs and less control than they have at the present time.
  I have listened to the most utter nonsense being talked by the hon. Baronet the Member for Fife, East about the independence and the great new powers that are to be given to local authorities. "We on this side", was his theme, "trust the local authorities"—
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart Sir J. Henderson-Stewart indicated dissent.
  Mr. Fraser: The hon. Baronet has forgotten almost everything he has said in his speech. He must read it tomorrow.
  Mr. Ross: He wants to forget it.
  Mr. Fraser: I would want to forget it, too, if I had made it.
  318
  In Clause 11 the Government are providing in permanent enactment that a local authority cannot even spend its own money on building projects for which it is a statutory authority. At least, when the borrowing of money is involved to carry out the capital projects, it must go cap in hand to the central Government and say. "Please may I do this?"
  As I said when discussing this same issue on the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill in Committee, my own local authority found that it was now committing an offence under the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) (Scotland) Act, 1951, by putting sludge into the river. To save itself from committing this offence, it asked about a grant under the Distribution of Industry Act to erect the necessary works. It was informed by the Scottish Office not only that it could not get a grant to carry out the necessary works, but that it would not get borrowing powers to carry them out. The Joint Under-Secretary has since written to me saying that if my local authority applies again, it might get a better answer next time.
  Why should the Secretary of State, who says that he wants to give more power to the local authorities, take from them the power, which they enjoyed until the war, of deciding by a two-thirds majority to borrow money for a capital project, whether it was the building of a library, a museum, public parks or a purification works? Why should the local authority not have the power to do that? It is not the wicked Socialists who are taking away this power. It is the National Liberals.
  What the Socialist Government did was to provide, in Section 4 of the 1951 Act, that this power, which had been taken by the central Government at the beginning of the war under Defence Regulations, should be continued temporarily at that time when the Defence Regulation was expiring. We had always been honest with the local authorities, and we said, "At this time, when building controls are operating all round and there are certain shortages, and when we have to exercise controls and impose restrictions on others, we must be able to put restrictions on local authorities also." We therefore put, it into the Bill for a temporary period. But it is the hon. Baronet's party which has been continuing it year after year in

  319
  the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, and it is his Government who are now writing it into permanent statute.
  Sir. J. Henderson-Stewart: Following the Socialist example.
  Mr. Fraser: The hon. Baronet says that the Government are following our example. If he has no greater understanding than that, I had better leave him alone.
  The Secretary of State, who said that the purpose of the Bill was to give the local authorities more powers, has also written into the Bill Clause 3 (1), which gives him power to reduce the general grant when a service is not being carried through. Therefore, if he is not satisfied with the number of schools, with the public health service that is provided by the local authority, with the fire service equipment or the fire stations which have been provided, if he is not satisfied with what the local authority is doing in the matter of child care, school crossings or anything else, under Clause 3 (1), he can say "I shall withdraw part of the grant." What a great help that will be to the local people! What a great help it will be to take the grant from them! In subsection (2), however, the Secretary of State goes on to provide that he will specify the standards to which those local services have to be maintained.
  Have not hon. Members opposite, including the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow, Kelvingrove who said that these local authorities were about to be liberated, seen that the local authorities will be worse hamstrung than ever after the Bill has gone through? We have become accustomed to the Secretary of State saying one thing and doing another, but we expect some hon. Members opposite to make a study of the Bill. Even though the Secretary of State said its purpose is to give more powers, if hon. Members opposite can see written in pretty plain English in the Bill that its effect will be completely the opposite, why on earth do they not say so? They did not have to read the Bill to see that. They had only to read some of the memoranda sent to them by their constituents, who identified for them those parts of the Bill by which new restrictions are to be put upon the local authorities.
  The Bill provides for the introduction of the new system by the year 1959 to
  320
  1960. Hon. Members opposite have been rather proud of the fact that by then the local authorities will get £750,000 more money. This was made most clear by the Secretary of State. The services dealt with in the Bill, and listed more clearly in the White Paper, together accounted in the year 1956 to 1957 for £36·6 million in grant, and 90 per cent. of the total was taken by education. Quite apart from the change in the value of money, would there not have been by 1959 to 1960, three years hence, an extension of services that would have increased the total cost of the services by more than 2 per cent.? We cannot be certain that there will be no further fall in the value of money. It has fallen this month compared with last month. But would not the total cost of the services have increased by more than 2 per cent.?
  What about the provisions for technical education of which we have heard so much? The new technical schools are included among the schools provided by the education authorities and listed in the Bill. Surely, the grant to be provided by the central Government in the next three years towards the cost of additional education services alone would have increased by more than this sum of £750,000. That is all that is being left of the £2·3 million additional money the local authorities get from industrial ratepayers.
  This is surely a bit of sharp practice. It is not an increase. It is most definitely a decrease. We shall find, three years from now, despite the £750,000 more which the local authorities are getting this year, that the Exchequer contribution will be a lower percentage than it is now of their costs met out of Exchequer funds. Of course, that is the purpose of the Bill. Why do not the Government tell us the truth? Why do not Ministers say that is the purpose of the Bill? Why will they say one thing and do something quite different?
  The hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) wanted to praise the Government, but said she would also have to speak on behalf of her constituency. Her constituency comes out of this very badly, because Aberdeen City has probably made more progress in education than any other education authority in Scotland since the end of the war.

  321
  It was the first education authority to get ahead with the building of new schools. It has provided more school places per 1,000 of the population than any other education authority in Scotland, and it has recruited staff. All that has cost money, of course, but the authority has received grants from Exchequer funds of about 60 per cent. of the total expenditure. At present, on a basis of per head of population, Aberdeen gets more money for education than any other city or urban authority in the country.
  Aberdeen incurred this additional expenditure by building new schools, by recruiting staff, and making educational provision in fulfilment of the Education Act, 1946, on the understanding that there was a contractual arrangement by which the central Government would meet a little more than 60 per cent. of the cost. This contract has now been torn up by the Government, and not after discussion and negotiation. The reward that the Government propose to give to Aberdeen for the great advances which the city has made in education since the war is to reduce the amount of grant.
  Renfrewshire, on the other hand, has done very badly in the provision of new schools since the end of the war. Renfrewshire receives at present less per head of the population than many other authorities in Scotland. The county has depended far too much on Glasgow to provide education, and particularly secondary education, for Renfrewshire youngsters. How do the Government punish Renfrewshire for failing to fulfil its obligations under the 1946 Act? Renfrewshire is to have increased assistance.
  I asked, in a Parliamentary Question, whether the Secretary of State could give me a list of local authorities which would suffer decreases or receive increases of grant under the Bill, but he was unable to provide me with a list. He must prepare a list, of course, before he gives effect to the Bill, because provision is made for calculations. He could not prepare one for me, because it would have meant that he would have had to show that the financial benefit of the Bill goes to those education authorities which have not done their job since the end of the war and that those who will lose under the Bill are those who have done a good job since the end of the war.
  322
  I am not saying that Edinburgh is not a good local education authority, but the education authority there has a great deal of its education services made available or its needs fulfilled by public benefactors. Notwithstanding all that, we have said that Edinburgh, like any other city, should be reimbursed for 50 per cent. of the cost incurred by the education authority. But now the Secretary of State proposes that he should count heads in Edinburgh and give it a grant to cover services, including education, by reference to population. Therefore, Edinburgh is bound to receive advantage under the Bill.
  If Edinburgh had to make all its provisions for education itself, as we do in the County of Lanark, and if the city had fulfilled all its obligations it would not gain by these new proposals, but public benefactors have met a substantial part of Edinburgh's education needs and the city will now receive not 60 per cent. of its education expenditure but very substantially more. That is the effect of these proposals. That is why this provision in the Bill is so very wrong.
  We have heard a good deal about technical education. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove, called attention to the great advances made in the Soviet Union and the United States of America. Did they make those advances by leaving the provision of education to the local authorities, to be met out of local rates? Of course not, Does anybody think that the provision of technical education should be left to the education authorities without any drive from this end? Of course not.
  I wish that the Secretary of State would be honest about this. None of us trusts the local authorities in this matter. We decided to raise the school-leaving age to 15. We did not leave it to be decided by local authorities. It is we who decide that there shall be secondary educational advantages for our children. It is we who will say that some day, in the not very distant future I hope, the school-leaving age will be raised. It is we who, in the very near future, will decide that there will be part-time technical education for all children who leave school at 15 years of age. We shall not leave that to local authorities.
  Mr. Walter Elliot: Does the hon. Gentleman think that education in the United States is a federal responsibility?
  Mr. Fraser: No. It is not a local responsibility either. It is a State responsibility. The right hon. Gentleman will know that many of the States in the United States are very much larger geographically and have very much larger populations than Scotland.
  Mr. Godfrey Lagden: They are very much less educated.
  Mr. Fraser: I do not know how much the hon. Gentleman knows about Scotland. He says that they are very much less educated, but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove informed us that they were so much better educated.
  Mr. Lagden: I was referring to parts of the United States whose education does not compare with this country.
  Mr. Fraser: I want to make way for the Under-Secretary of State who will reply to the debate.
  It is our responsibility in this House to ensure that technical educational facilities are provided for the young people. I would dare anyone to say that he is willing to leave that to the local authorities. It is for us to do that. It is because we have recognised hitherto that there should be a partnership between central Government and local government in the provision of education and all those other services for which percentage grants have been given that we have had percentage grants.
  We have recognised, up to now, that there has been a partnership. By and large, policy has been laid down in this House. Even in the administration of the policy there has had to be a partnership between central Government and local government. The paying of percentage grants was a recognition of that partnership. It is seen clearly now that the purpose of the abolition of percentage grant is to reduce the assistance given by the central Government to local authorities. This is a breaking up of the partnership. All that has been said by hon. Members on both sides about the need to increase and encourage a better educational provision for the young people indicates that this is not the appropriate time to introduce this Measure.
  Let hon. Members bear this in mind. At the moment if an education authority
  324
  is considering whether it will build a technical school that will cost, say, £2 million it will do so knowing that more than half the annual burden will be met from central funds. If it has to decide the same issue after the passage of this Bill, it will know that 100 per cent. of the additional financial burden being taken on by the provision of the school will be borne by the local authority. This Bill is a piece of sharp practice. It is dishonest. I call on those Conservatives representing Scotland who have criticised the Bill for once to follow their arguments with their votes into the Division Lobby.
  9.36 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Niall Macpherson): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has asked me to wind up this debate because of the predominating interest of education in the services proposed to be covered.
  In the course of our debate today we have had an advantage in that we have been discussing only the block grant and its effects. At the same time, if there is one thing that has emerged from the discussion it is the general feeling which started with the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Paisley (Mr. D. Johnston) that all was not really well with local government. I would be the first to admit that there has been no agreement about the cure to be applied.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) could have understood this Bill better. He could have gone into it more closely and understood what it seeks to do before he made the allegations he did. For example, he seems to be labouring under the misapprehension that the block grant is to be built up in the first place from the 1956–57 expenditure, no matter what inflation has happened since. If the hon. Gentleman will look at Clause 2 he will see that this is not the case. The duty is laid upon my right hon. Friend to take into account the latest information available before fixing that grant.
  Then the hon. Gentleman said that if a school is built in the future the cost must come out of the rates. Clause 2 (1, c) states clearly that my right hon. Friend must take into account the need for developing the services, so that is taken into account on a national basis.

  325
  However, schools will have to be built all over the country—I should think in every single local authority area—so it cannot be said that under this system any local authority which has to build a new school will have to find 100 per cent. of the money out of the rates.
  Then the hon. Gentleman uttered certain generalisations about the position of local authorities and how the advanced and less advanced ones would be affected. Those generalisations are not justified. This formula was arrived at in a purely objective manner. It is inevitable that some local authorities will lose a bit and some will gain a bit. This happens when a formula is fixed on an objective level, but the object of doing so is to obtain a common measure of assistance for the maintenance of national standards in the services to which the grant relates.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) drew attention to the expansion of social services. Over the last twenty-five years or so we have had a steady growth of social legislation, much of which has laid duties on local authorities and has encouraged them to perform their functions by offering percentage grant of various amounts which have no logical relationship one to another. I suggest that there comes a time in the development of separate local authority functions when, instead of each being subject to a separate financial control by a separate Department of Government, it is opportune and appropriate to give them each a sum of money with which to carry out the whole group of functions. That is the philosophy of the Bill and I believe that it is right.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George), in a most admirable speech, suggested that the Bill would result in a budgetary system being introduced into local government and he thought that that would be a good thing. I agree, but of course, such a system already exists. I believe that the Bill will strengthen it. I disagree with my hon. Friend when he said that the Bill had no friends outside the House. I admit that the local government associations in Scotland have expressed disapproval. It is wile that the E.I.S. has expressed disapproval, but many individuals in local government, even among those whose local authorities say that they are opposed to the Measure, have already indicated that they have
  326
  appreciated the purpose of the Measure and will support it.
  Mr. D. Johnston: The hon. Member has just made an assertion of fact. Will he back that assertion by giving names?
  Mr. Macpherson: Certainly. They have indicated that to my right hon. Friend, to myself and to my hon. Friends. We are in constant touch about this.
  The question really is what the purpose of the Bill is and that is something about which there has been considerable discussion. Many critics have started from a preconceived idea of what a block grant is. Sonic still think that it is a sum to be fixed immediately by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for years ahead, limiting the liability of the Exchequer and throwing on the ratepayer the burden of expanding services and increasing costs. They conjure up the ghost of Geddes, complete with axe, and whisper knowingly "Geddes walks again." I say to the Opposition what was said in the case of a different ghost:
  "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
  Than are dreamed of in your philosophy."
  It is true that the purpose of the block grant introduced in 1922 was economy. Indeed, the Geddes Committee which recommended it was set up specifically to effect forthwith all possible reductions in the national expenditure. That Committee pointed out that the Board of Education Vote had grown from £19 million to £50 million over a period of three years. The avowed object of that Committee's recommendations was to check expansion and reduce expenditure and the critics have accordingly inferred that the real purpose of this Measure is the same. It is not. There has been no Geddes Committee.
  One thing is quite clear and that is that we know better than the critics what our real purpose is. It is stated clearly and unambiguously in the White Paper which I shall repeat:
  "A main aim of the proposed changes has been to increase the independence of local authorities in the raising and spending of their money so far as it is practicable to do so."
  We are not ashamed of our belief that an effect of strengthening of the financial responsibility of local authorities will be to encourage them to greater economy. There is always room for

  327
  economy, even with education. We believe that this reform will make for more efficient administration and more value for money. What we are doing is to give an opportunity for greater responsibility in determining the division of expenditure without having the distracting pull of a percentage grant.
  How is that to be achieved? It is to be achieved by the block grant. Member after Member has risen to say that that is all very well, but that more powers are being given to the Secretary of State. I say to the House what has been said by my right hon. Friends in earlier debates, that in the Working Party we are now considering how to relax controls and what controls should be relaxed. The first stage was for the Working Party to reach a basis for the formula and to get the legislative background of the Bill in shape. The next stage is to see what the effects will be on the actual functions of local government.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) talked about the intention to cut the grant. The general trend of his argument, which was also advanced by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and others, was that there was to be a bigger burden on ratepayers and that the rates would bear more heavily than taxes on people with low incomes.
  I think that was the general basis of their argument; but really this cannot be right because the net effect of the changes is to give the ratepayers in Scotland a benefit of something like £750,000. It is all very well for the hon. Member for Hamilton to talk about stealing back industrial rates. Industrial ratepayers will certainly pay more; indeed two-thirds is being used to reduce the block grant. That is the answer to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central and that is where the reduction in grant takes place and nowhere else. But the general effect on the local authorities as a whole, because they get the extra £750,000, is that they will be better off at the end of the exercise.
  Mr. McInnes: Would the hon. Gentleman make it perfectly clear to the House what Exchequer subsidies were given to local authorities in respect of derating?
  Mr. Macpherson: In 1929, when de-rating took place, the amount of derating
  328
  was made up to the local authorities and a little more as well. On this point, the hon. Gentleman said that 38 per cent. of expenditure was met from grants in 1955–56 and he asked from where the remaining 62 per cent. came. Of that 62 per cent., one-half came from rates and the rest from other sources of revenue, rents, bus fares, miscellaneous fees and so on. The figure given for England and Wales was six to five in the relationship between Exchequer grants and rates, and in Scotland the figure was five to four. That is the answer to the hon. Gentleman.
  I was asked why the police were not included if this was such a good thing. The answer is perfectly simple. It is because my right hon. Friend has a special duty as regards the maintenance of law and order.
  I was also asked why roads were not included. The answer is because the responsibility for roads is one which is shared between my right hon. Friend and the local authorities in different degrees. It would be virtually impossible to include that in the grant. I was asked, why choose this moment to add additional control, to rivet on local authorities the control of borrowing as a permanency. The answer is, quite frankly, this. For the foreseeable future we see no prospect that the prospective excess of demand for capital investment will be equalled by the capacity of our resources to meet it. In fact the demand will be greater and therefore we have to exercise control.
  I would say this to hon. Members opposite. Of all people they should be the last to bring this charge. They want to exercise control over all other forms of investment. Do they really want us to believe that local authority investment, out of all the rest, would be the one source of investment that they would leave alone?
  The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Paisley, said that local government had no say over education or any other service at all. The fact is that powers are conferred as well as duties. It is not just the actual national policy that local authorities have to interpret; there is an infinite variety of ways in which they carry that out.
  He would have liked to find sources of local income tax. My

  329
  hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) dealt with that point. The hon. Member was at variance with his hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Lindgren), and also with the Sorn Report in that respect. I would also point out that his argument would fall down even if there were new sources of finance or a new system of rating, because these duties would remain. We should not restore any more independence to local government even if we had a different system of raising finance.
  I should have liked to deal with a great many more points, but I think that I should sum up the situation now, since time is rather short. The attitude of the Opposition can best be characterised as one of undue scepticism. They are sceptical about the amount of the general grant and the sums payable to each local authority; about the Secretary of State's power to maintain standards, and about the sense of responsibility of local authorities.
  First as regards the total amount of the general grant. The Secretary of State referred to the explicit duty imposed upon him by Clause 2, as to the factors which he is bound to take into consideration—the rate of expenditure on the services in question, together with any foreseeable variation in the cost and in the demand for those services. I say once again to the hon. Member for Hamilton that there is no fixity in this matter. My right hon. Friend must also have regard to the need for developing those services, together with the extent to which it is reasonable to proceed with development taking into account the economic conditions at the time.
  The rate of progress must be related to the capacity of the nation to sustain it. In the face of such a clear and unambiguous statutory obligation, local authorities have no real cause for alarm as to the method of arriving at the total grant. In a very admirable speech the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) said that he thought that the powers provided by Clause 2 (1) were too weak. Hon. Members have implied that the Secretary of State is not bound to do more than take these matters into consideration and that, laving done that, he can do what he likes. But he cannot do what he likes.
  330
  Under Clause 1 the total amount of Government assistance towards the local services in question has to be set out in a general grant Order, which has to be approved by both Houses. The Government will have to satisfy both Houses that the total amount is neither too little nor too much. The fact is that under the present system of percentage grants Parliament has tended to lose control of expenditure. The present proposals will not only increase the financial responsibility of local authorities; they will restore to Parliament its historic, broad control of expenditure in the field of the Exchequer contribution to local government finance.
  For 1959–60 and thereafter the total amount will be set out for Parliament to approve or disapprove, and for all to see, in the general grant Order. That Order will cover two or more years. One of my hon. Friends expressed the hope that it would not be for more than three years. The money, however, will have to be voted year by year, just as the university quinquennial grant is voted annually now. There will be ample opportunity for Parliament to debate the amount both on the Order and the Estimates.
  Mr. Rankin: And to increase it.
  Mr. Macpherson: It will be open to Parliament to say, "Here are factors which we think will justify an increase." The hon. Member for Hamilton knows his Parliamentary procedure, and he knows how these things happen. He has the choice of what will be debated in the Estimates.
  Mr. Ross: Shall we have the power to amend the Order to which the hon. Member is referring?
  Mr. Macpherson: No, it is not intended that there shall be power to amend them.
  I was asked about local grants by my hon. Friend the Member for Banff (Mr. Duthie), and that raises the important question of those authorities which may be described as advanced. I say both to my hon. Friend and to the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) that it is true that the general grant to Aberdeen and to Banff will initially be less than the specific grants which it replaces. But in making his calculations my hon. Friend took no account of the effect of the proposals on the equalisation grant or of rerating or of the

  331
  considerations relating to revaluation in 1961, all of which are relevant. Therefore, I give my hon. Friend the assurance he seeks. By law we are bound to look at this matter before 1963 and that will certainly be done.
  Because Aberdeen has reached a more advanced stage regarding educational provisions than other areas, it will have less need to spend money on development, whereas it will receive the general grant for a long time to come including a proportion of the total amount provided for development which will not be limited by this expenditure; so that the initial loss to the city should become less marked as greater uniformity is achieved among authorities in the standard and cost of education and other services covered by the general grant.
  Hon. Members opposite have cast doubts on the maintenance of standards under this system, particularly with regard to education. They have also cast doubt on it with regard to technical education. Had they read Part II of the Third Schedule to the Bill they would have seen exactly what will happen, and so far as relates to education we shall be making regulations
  under this Bill which will cover that point entirely.
  My right hon. Friend referred to the important safeguards provided in Clause 3 and to the powers contained there. Some critics have overlooked paragraph 6 of the Fourth Schedule where it is stated
  "The Secretary of State may make regulations prescribing the standards to which every education authority shall conform in exercising their functions under this section."
  by that I mean Section 1 of the Education (Scotland) Act.
  Is it really suggested that local authorities will wilfully contravene such regulations, that they will break the law of the land to save money and cut down on standards? Surely such fears imply a strange lack of confidence in local authorities. This Bill is inspired by the policy on which we have fought and won two General Elections and on which we shall go on winning; that is a policy of a free democracy, in which responsibility shall be spread and not centralised and in which, accordingly, local government shall be as local as possible.
  Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
  The House divided: Ayes 301, Noes 245.

  Division No. 22.]

  AYES

  [9.58 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Aitken, W. T.

  Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

  Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. (Kelvingrove)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Erroll, F. J.

  Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

  Butler, Rt.Hn.R.A. (Saffron Walden)

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Arbuthnot, John

  Carr, Robert

  Fell, A.

  Ashton, H.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Finlay, Graeme

  Astor, Hon. J. J.

  Channon, Sir Henry

  Fisher, Nigel

  Atkins, H. E.

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

  Forrest, G.

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Fort, R.

  Balniel, Lord

  Cole, Norman

  Foster, John

  Barber, Anthony

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Barlow, Sir John

  Cooke, Robert

  Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)

  Barter, John

  Cooper, A. E.

  Freeth, Denzil

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Cooper-Key, E. M.

  Gammans, Lady

  Beamish, Maj. Tufton

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Garner-Evans, E. H.

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Corfield, Capt. F. V.

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Gibson-Watt, D.

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

  Glover, D.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald

  Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

  Glyn, Col. Richard H.

  Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

  Cunningham, Knox

  Godber, J. B.

  Bidgood, J. C.

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Goodhart, Philip

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Dance, J. C. G.

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Bingham, R. M.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Gower, H. R.

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Bishop, F. P.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Grant, W. (Woodside)

  Black, C. W.

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

  Body, R. F.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  Green, A.

  Boothby, Sir Robert

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Bossom, Sir Alfred

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  du Cann, E. D. L.

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Braine, B. R.

  Duncan, Sir James

  Gurden, Harold

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Profumo, J. D.

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (Sutton Coldfield)

  Redmayne, M.

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Lucas, P.B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Rippon, A. G. F.

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  McAdden, S. J.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Robertson, Sir David

  Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  McKibbin, Alan

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

  Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Hesketh, R. F.

  McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Maclay, Rt Hon. John

  Sharples, R. C.

  Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Shepherd, William

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  MacLeod John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Soames, Christopher

  Hobson,John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Hallfax)

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Speir, R. M.

  Hope, Lord John

  Maddan, Martin

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Hornby, R. P.

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Maitland Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

  Storey, S.

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  Marshall, Douglas

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Mathew, R.

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Hurd, A. R.

  Maude, Angus

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

  Mawby, R. L.

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark (Ed'b'gh, S.)

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr, S. L. C.

  Teeling, W.

  Hyde, Montgomery

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Temple, John M.

  Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

  Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Thompson, Lt.-Cmdr.R. (Croydon,S.)

  Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Neave, Airey

  Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Joseph, Sir Keith

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Kaberry, D.

  O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim,N.)

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Keegan, D.

  Ormsby-Core, Rt. Hon. W. D.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-S.-Mare)

  Wall, Major Patrick

  Kershaw, J. A.

  Osborne, C.

  Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Kirk, P. M.

  Page, R. G.

  Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

  Lagden, G. W.

  Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Partridge, E.

  Webbe, Sir H.

  Lambton, Viscount

  Peel, W. J.

  Whitelaw, W. S. I.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Pickthorn, K. W. M.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Wills, G. (Bridgwater)

  Leavey, J. A.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Leburn, W. G.

  Pitt, Miss E. M.

  Woollam, John Victor

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Pott, H. P.

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

  Mr. Brooman-White and Mr. Bryan

  NOES

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Albu, A. H.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Champion, A. J.

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Boardman, H.

  Chapman, W. D.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W)

  Clunie, J.

  Awbery, S. S.

  Bowles, F. G.

  Coldrick, W.

  Baird, J.

  Boyd, T. C.

  Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

  Balfour, A.

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Collins, V.J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Cove, W. G.

  Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

  Burke, W. A.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Benson, G.

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Cronin, J. D.

  Beswick, Frank

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Blackburn, F.

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  334

  335

  Darling, George (Hillsborough)

  Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

  Rankin, John

  Davies,Rt.Hn.Clement(Montgomery)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Redhead, E. C.

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Kenyon, C.

  Reeves, J.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Reid, William

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Deer, G.

  Lawson, G. M.

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Ledger, R. J.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Diamond, John

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Dodds, N. N.

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Ross, William

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Lewis, Arthur

  Royle, C.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmweh)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Dye, S.

  Logan, D. G.

  Short, E. W.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Edelman, M.

  MacColl, J. E.

  Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  MacDermot, Niall

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  McGhee, H. G.

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  McInnes, J.

  Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  McLeavy, Frank

  Snow, J. W.

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Fernyhough, E.

  MacPherson Malcolm (Stirling)

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Fienburgh, W.

  Mahon, Simon

  Sparks, J. A.

  Finch, H. J.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Steele, T.

  Fletcher, Eric

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Foot, D. M.

  Mann, Mrs. Jean

  Stonehouse, John

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Stones, W. (Consett)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Car'then)

  Mason, Roy

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  Gibson, C. W.

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Stross.Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

  Gooch, E. G.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

  Crenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Messer, Sir F.

  Swingler, S. T.

  Grey, C. F.

  Mikardo, Ian

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Monslow, W.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Griffihs, William (Exchange)

  Moody, A. S.

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Grimond, J.

  Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

  Thornton, E.

  Hale, Leslie

  Morrison, Rt.Hn.Herbert(Lewis'm,S.)

  Tomney, F.

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Mort, D. L.

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Moss, R.

  Usborne, H. C.

  Hannan, W.

  Moyle, A.

  Viant, S. P.

  Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)

  Mulley, F. W.

  Wade, D. W.

  Hastings, S.

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  warbey, W. N.

  Hayman, F. H.

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Watkins, T. E.

  Healey, Denis

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

  Weitzman, D.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  O'Brien, Sir Thomas

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Hewitson, Capt. M.

  Oram, A. E.

  West, D. G.

  Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

  Orbach, M.

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Holman, P.

  Owen, W. J.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Holmes, Horace

  Padley, W. E.

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Holt, A. F.

  Paget, R. T.

  Wigg, George

  Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

  Wilcock, Croup Capt. C. A. B.

  Howell, Denis (All Saints)

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Willey, Frederick

  Hoy, J. H.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Hunter, A. E.

  Parker, J.

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Parkin, B. T.

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

  Paton, John

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Peart, T. F.

  Winterbottom, Richard

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Pentland, N.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Woof, R. E.

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Popplewell, E.

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (Holbn & St.Pncs,S.)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Zilliacus, K.

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Probert, A. R.

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Proctor, W. T.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. John Taylor.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield)

  Randall, H. E.

  Bill accordingly read a Second time.

  Bill committed to a Standing Commit tee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND MISCELLANEOUS FINANCIAL PROVISIONS (SCOTLAND) [MONEY]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).—[Queen's Recommendation signified.]
[Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make new provision for grants out of the Exchequer to local authorities in Scotland, to abolish the Education (Scotland) Fund, to amend the law of Scotland relating to valuation for rating, to provide for the increase of fees under certain enactments relating to marriage and to registration of births, deaths and marriages, and for other matters, it is expedient to authorise—
A. the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

(i) the expenses of the Secretary of State in paying general grants under the said Act;

(ii) any expenses which by virtue of the said Act are to be defrayed by the Secretary of State out of moneys provided by Parliament instead of the Education (Scotland) Fund constituted by section sixty-nine of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946;

(iii) any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament under any other Act;

B. the payment into the Exchequer of—

(i) any balance in the said Education (Scotland) Fund at the coming into operation of any provision of the said Act of the present Session providing for the abolition of that Fund;

(ii) any sums which by virtue of the said Act of the present Session are to be paid into the Exchequer instead of the said Education (Scotland) Fund;

(iii) any increase attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session in the receipts of the Registrar-General for Births, Deaths and Marriages in Scotland.—[Mr. Maclay.]

10.11 p.m.
Mr. William Ross: We ought to have some explanation of this Money Resolution. There is at least one point which intrigues me. Looking at line 16—I am sure that the Minister will enlighten us—there is to be paid into the Exchequer
"any balance in the said Education (Scotland) Fund at the coming into operation of any provision of the said Act of the present Session providing for the abolition of that Fund;"
338
The Bill will abolish the Education Fund. A point which interests me is that, at present, as far as I understand, any balance at the end of the year in the Education Fund is retained in that Fund and does not affect any future payments into the Fund in the following year. As I see it, Scottish education will be deprived of that balance by paying it into the Treasury, from which in future the general grant will have to come. Will the Secretary of State tell us what the position has been over the last two or three years? How much has remained in the Fund and how many thousands of pounds will Scottish education be denied by the change?
The hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) referred to the Fund this evening. I can well remember an occasion when he presented us with a Supplementary Estimate, and he could not give us any explanation at all about what it was. All he could say was that it came into the Education Fund at the end of the year because England and Wales had spent more money but that additional sum, that balance, was carried forward and devoted to Scottish education. Under the Money Resolution, however, any balance will be handed back to the Treasury.
This is a matter of considerable interest to every local authority in Scotland. We are told by the noble Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) that, in the first years of the new dispensation, Aberdeen will lose a considerable sum of money. We are told by the hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Duthie) that the local authority in his area will lose over £80,000 in the first year. I am sure that those hon. Members, like me, will be concerned that, in the coming into operation of this strange and devastating Bill, money will pass to the Treasury and will not be applied to Scottish education, the education authorities being put to a considerable loss as a result of the Bill. I do not see the Financial Secretary to the Treasury here, but we should be given justification for this and explanation of what it will mean in the loss to Scottish education.
10.15 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): I can answer briefly. This provision is necessary as a consequence of the abolition of the Education

339
(Scotland) Fund. I am advised that the sum involved is relatively small from year to year. [HON. MEMBERS: "How much?"] It cannot be worked out exactly. It may range from £20,000 to £50,000, but it is not a large sum and it may even be less than that. I understand that the matter is provisional for the future and that it should be a very small sum indeed.
Mr. Ross: It is wrong for the right hon. Gentleman to say that it must be done in this way. If that sum is available to be disbursed, it could be disbursed in many other ways. There is no reason why it should go back to the Treasury. It has been voted by the House of Commons for the purposes of Scottish education and for those purposes it should be applied. I am not concerned whether it is £20,000 or £20 million. The fact is that it was voted by the House for Scottish education and it should be applied for that purpose.
In Committee, if we are lucky enough to be on the Committee which deals with the Bill, we can certainly find many ways of using that sum, whatever it may be, for the benefit of Scottish education. Will the Secretary of State deny that it would be possible to disburse it in some other way?
Resolution to be reported.
Report to be received Tomorrow.

POLICE PENSIONS
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Draft Police Pensions Regulations, 1958, a copy of which was laid before this House on 4th December, be approved.—[Mr. Simon.]
10.20 p.m.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I think it will be for the convenience of the House to consider with these Regulations similar Regulations for Scotland.
Mr. Frederick Wiley: The Home Secretary has not given an explanation of these Regulations. We have the Joint Under-Secretary of State here, and I am sure that he is very anxious to address us. May we have an explanation from him?
10.21 p.m.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. J. E. S. Simon): The hon. Gentleman the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) exaggerates when he says I am very anxious to address the House, although I am very willing to do so. It may assist hon. Members if I explain that these rather formidable looking Regulations have, nevertheless, a simple and felicitous purpose. They are to give the widows and children of certain deceased police officers the benefits of increases in their awards, which correspond to those provided by the National Insurance (No. 2) Act, 1957.
I do not propose to discuss the Regulations in detail unless any hon. Member has any question in particular which he wishes to raise, but I should like to say a word about their general background.
Since 5th July, 1948, police officers have contributed to the National Insurance scheme, like everyone else, and their widows and children can, therefore, qualify for the appropriate benefits. Before July, 1948, police officers were excluded from State insurance even as voluntary contributors, and, accordingly, some widows and children of deceased police officers are not entitled to National Insurance benefits. For example, an officer may have died before the introduction of the scheme of 5th July, 1948, or he may have been too old to enter the scheme on that date, or he may have died before he was able to pay sufficient contributions to qualify his dependants for an award.
Parliament, during the passage of the Police Pensions Act, 1948, took the view that the widows and children of such officers should not be left at a disadvantage, and police authorities were accordingly empowered to increase their basic awards under the police pensions scheme by amounts equivalent to the appropriate National Insurance benefits. Those amounts have from time to time been increased to take account of improvements in the National Insurance scheme.
The House will recollect that the National Insurance (No. 2) Act, 1957, has provided for increases in the rate of National Insurance benefits which are to take effect from 27th January, 1958. The purpose of these draft Regulations is to make it possible to apply corresponding

341
increases to these supplementary awards under the police pensions scheme. If the House approves the Regulations, the increases will also take effect from 27th January of next year.
The Home Secretary has consulted the Police Council in accordance with the requirements of the Police Pensions Act, 1948, and it has expressed its agreement with these proposals.
Mr. R. J. Mellish: The hon. and learned Gentleman has mentioned the Police Council, but not the Police Federation. Was the Federation also consulted?
Mr. Simon: The Police Federation is represented on the Police Council. It is one of the three constituent elements, so to speak, on the staff side.
The Regulations take the form of amendments to three existing sets of Police Pensions Regulations, those of 1948, 1949 and 1955. My right hon. Friend regrets that it should be necessary to legislate by reference in this way, but the statutory safeguards which were written into the Police Pensions Act, 1948, providing for existing pensions, prevent consolidation in the normal sense of that term.
The most my right hon. Friend can do is to enact a fresh set of Regulations governing future awards. Each time he does this he creates a fresh tier of Regulations for police authorities to operate. It must, therefore, obviously be a power to be exercised sparingly. He appreciates that there have now been a substantial number of Amendments to the 1955 Regulations. He therefore proposes to introduce a fresh set of Regulations for future awards in the course of next year.
The purpose of these Regulations is to assist widows and children of certain deceased police officers. I believe that this is a body of pensioners who deserve well of the community and whose well-being the House has at heart. I therefore confidently commend them to the House.
10.26 p.m.
Miss Margaret Herbison: These Regulations, as far as I
342
understand, give effect to the increases made to widows and children under the latest National Insurance Act. I, and, I am sure, all hon. Members on this side of the House, would have been pleased to see these increases greater than they are. Of course, I understand that the Home Secretary could not make the increases for these widows covered by these Regulations any greater than those increases given effect to in the National Insurance (No. 2) Act, 1957.
I take it that the Secretary of State for Scotland had consultations with the Scottish Police Council and that there was general agreement between the Secretary of State and the Scottish Police Council in these matters. We welcome the increases as far as they go, because many of the widows of these policemen and their children have suffered very greatly in the past. We welcome any increase, but we hope that in future the increases will follow a National Insurance Bill that deals much more adequately with matters like the cost of living.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Niall Macpherson): In answer to the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), the changes proposed have been endorsed by the Police Council for Great Britain and the form of the draft Regulations has been approved by the statutory Scottish Police Council.
Mr. Willey: By leave of the House, should like to thank the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department very much for the clear and concise way in which he has explained these Regulations.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Draft Police Pensions Regulations, 1958, a copy of which was laid before this House on 4th December, be approved.
Draft Police Pensions (Scotland) Regulations, 1958 [copy laid before the House, 4th December], approved.—[Mr. N. Macpherson.]

INDIA (FAMILY PENSION FUNDS)
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [5th December]:
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Government of India (Family Pension Funds) (Amendment) Order, 1957, be made in the form of the Draft laid before this House on 20th November.
Question again proposed.
The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. C. J. M. Alport): This Order has already been formally introduced into the House and was yesterday given general approval in another place. Its object is to extend the powers of investment of the Commissioners of the four family pension funds established between 1873 and 1928 for the benefit of the widows and orphans of officers in the military service and Civil Service of the Government of India appointed by the Secretary of State.
Since 1945 Parliament has passed three amending Orders each of which has affected in one way or another the powers of investment of the Commissioners with the object of extending investment. Those amending Orders were passed in 1945, 1948 and 1950. In 1949 the Commissioners asked the Government whether they would approve the extension of their powers to include investment in equities, in ordinary shares. Unhappily the then Government, the Labour Government, refused to allow this, with the result that the beneficiaries were unable to gain the advantage which might otherwise have accrued to them if the Commissioners had had the increased scope for their powers of investment.
The amending Order which is before the House at the moment is designed to enable the Commissioners to invest a maximum of 30 per cent. of the value of each of the funds at their disposal in preference stocks or equities of sound United Kingdom companies which have regularly paid a dividend of 5 per cent. during ten years, or, if they have been in existence for a lesser period, 5 per cent. each ear during the period of their existence. In addition, it enables the Commissioners to invest in debentures in United Kingdom companies. It increases the scope of the field of their investment in Commonwealth
344
and public authority undertakings and it enables the Commissioners to purchase leaseholds in the United Kingdom.
The introduction of this Order enables us to make one other small amendment to the original Order of 1936. It enables the Secretary of State to appoint Commissioners or to re-appoint them for a period of less than four years, whereas at present all appointments have to be made for the full term of four years. We have had the request of the Commissioners for these additional powers. We have circulated the subscribers to all these funds and of those who have replied, the majority are very much in favour of the proposals. We believe that the beneficiaries will gain benefit from the increased scope of the powers of the Commissioners and that they will prudently use these powers within the restrictions which this Order lays down. For that reason I hope that the House will give this Order its speedy approval.
10.33 p.m.
Mr. B. T. Parkin: This is indeed a happy occasion for many of us on this side of the House, and our only regret about this debate is not the numbers present—because there is a fairly good attendance—but the absence from the Front Bench of some of the members of the Government who must have had a very anxious time when this Order went through the Cabinet preparatory to being presented to the House.
I hope that before the debate is over, we shall have some explanations. I understand that it is a little difficult to get the Chancellor of the Exchequer here, but I am sure he has a substitute who is prepared to explain how he is able to reconcile the proposals in this Order with the speeches that he has been making in the country and, indeed, the answers which he has been giving in the House pouring derision on the proposal of the Labour Party to make the sort of policy embodied in this Order the basis of the investment policy for a national superannuation scheme.
I should have thought it very odd that this debate should conclude this evening without a contribution from the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, who

345
again has been extremely severe both in the country and in this House. I am glad to see that the right hon. Gentleman has just arrived, and we shall look forward to hearing from him later in the evening—[Hon. MEMBERS: "In the morning."]—some of the reasons why he has been able to reconcile his conscience with support for this Order this evening. If he has been converted, perhaps he will take the opportunity of withdrawing some of the derisive comments that he has made about the proposals of the Labour Party when he considers that the terms of this Order go further than any that have been suggested in detail in the outline of my own party's policy.
One reads with astonishment that not only may the Commissioners invest their funds in public companies but that they may also take:
"Denbentures, debenture stock, bonds or other obligations of any company, public or private, incorporated with limited liability in the United Kingdom …"
I suppose that if the proposals of the Labour Party had gone into such detail as this, the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance might have said even more to the discredit of the Labour Party, charging it with wanton speculation with the insurance funds and so on.
It is interesting that when one of the previous Orders was laid before the House it was the present Attorney-General, speaking from the Opposition Front Bench, who said it was much overdue and asked what the Commissioners had been doing playing around with gilt-edged stocks and losing the value of the money. The Attorney-General ought to be in his place tonight to give us his legal opinion of what caused him to remain a member of the Government, which, in the light of the Labour Party's proposals, is supporting an Order smuggled in at a late hour and without a great deal of preparation.
Where is the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster? What has happened to his Press conferences? Has Mr. Poole been sent for to have the scheme explained to him so that the whole country may know the implications of the Order as it affects the Conservative Party's policy of superannuation in the succeeding years? We should like to know what conclusions are being drawn and what proposals will he made.
346
I should particularly like to know. In the days before Christmas the hon. Member for Paddington, South (Mr. R. Allan) and I have to visit some old folk's parties which are held at this time of the year. There is not the slightest doubt that we shall be asked what the policies of our respective parties are with regard to maintaining the value of old-age pensions and the prospects of a better superannuation scheme. Can it be that we shall be put in the impossible position of saying that the Government are in favour of one thing for pensioners who depend on funds contributed from the Indian Government and another set of principles for the old people of this country?
I do not know where the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) is. I hope he will shortly be turning up. It will be difficult for him at election time when he is asked, "Why do you support one set of proposals for your constituents who are pensioners depending on these funds and oppose the same set of principles when they are put forward as a sound and sensible basis for a superannuation scheme for the people of this country?"
We shall need to explain this to the old people. They have been thinking these things out. They have been coming to the same conclusions as those which motivated the people who have drafted this Order and drawn up this scheme. Assuming a simple case of a family living on the land in a country district, the old folks would expect to be maintained out of the products of the farm in their old age. But they would not expect to be told that they could get back the money that was spent on the young apple trees, plus 5 per cent. They would expect to get a share of the fruit, and the basis of the modern conception of a sensible superannuation scheme is precisely that.
That is clearly the thought that has been in the minds of those who have drafted the Order. We welcome it, and are very glad to see that a conversion to more up-to-date ideas has made a slight penetration into the minds of some members of the Government; but we feel a little uneasy at the fact that we have had no explanation yet—although the night is yet young—about how far

347
this principle is likely be extended into other spheres.
Mr. R. J. Mellish: My hon. Friend will understand that after this draft Order has been debated it does not follow that we shall support it. Most of us have very grave doubts about it.
Mr. Parkin: I do not know what my hon. Friend has in mind. I was thinking of waiting patiently to see what explanation was forthcoming. I had even toyed with the idea of calling a Division myself if the Front Bench did not take action—not in the hope that I should carry many of my hon. Friends with me, because many of them feel that they should support the principles of the Order—
Mr. Victor Collins: My hon. Friend spoke a moment ago about the conversion of the Government to the policies advocated by the Labour Party, but it is only a 30 per cent. conversion. The Government may have attempted to steal the clothes, but they appear to have stolen only the trousers.
Mr. Mellish: if there is a Division and my hon. Friend wants another unofficial Whip, I will help him.
Mr. Parkin: It is very kind of you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to allow these negotiations to take place among back benchers.
What I had in mind was that although we do not need to know how many members of the Labour Party are in support of the principles embodied in the Order, because we have known for a long time—through the sterling pamphlet issued by the Labour Party on the subject of national superannuation, with the subheading, "Labour's Policy for Security in Old Age"—we should like to know how many members of the Conservative Party, if they are not prepared to talk with their mouths are prepared to talk with their feet and come into the open and let their names be registered in support of the principles behind this Order.
10.42 p.m.
Mr. Harold Lever: I do not think that the House
348
is in a condition to make up its mind to about this matter until there has been a very thorough examination of the implications of the Order. My hon. Friend has pointed out that the Government appear to be yielding a little to the overwhelming pressure of the Labour Party's ideas as to the investment of public money, but there are many aspects of the matter upon which we should like some authoritative Government reassurance. Many open-minded members of the Labour Party have been worried about one aspect of the Labour Party's proposals, and the Government should put their minds at rest if they wish for support for the Order.
I should like to know if the Government believe in buying ordinary stock in private companies, because we have been told by almost every reputable newspaper which supports the Tory case that if they do buy, an immense amount of uncertainty will result. Directors will not know where they are, and it will lead to improper political pressure, which is calculated to upset the admirable gentlemen who run these companies. I should like to have an assurance from the Minister that the newspapers which have spoken, apparently in sympathy with the Tory objections to the Labour Party scheme, have been talking complete balderdash and poppycock, and that when public investment takes place there is not the slightest danger of disrupting the efficiency of private companies, or of jobbery, or jobs for the boys, or any untoward political influence.
Unless I can be assured by an explicit statement that what the Government are proposing to do will not lead to any of those mischiefs I shall have to vote against the Order. None of us here wants to bring into effect any of these disconcerting and most disturbing consequences.
I am inclined to suppose that these nightmare illusions which have been fostered by the Tory Press have no real substance in them. This is a convenient moment—I am sure he would do it with relish—for the Minister to make plain to the House that these horrors are but the figments of the tortured imaginations of moronic leader writers and bear no possible relation to reality; that in fact there is no good, sound commercial reason why we should not have public investment in the ordinary shares of public companies.

349
The second point that worries me is that since this Government came to office we have had an alarming loss of confidence in public investment in gilt-edged. It is all very well for there to be moronic noises from hon. Members opposite which may occasionally be interpreted as, "What about Daltons?" or something of that sort, but that will not do as an answer to this very grave problem. The Government are responsible for the fact that gilt-edged have become a very uncertain market, and I am doubtful whether we can readily rush in to support an Order which in effect is a declaration by the Government that gilt-edged stock, trustee securities and the like are not a proper investment for public funds. That is the alarming implication which one is bound to draw from the Government pronunciamento.
When the Chancellor introduced his lottery bonds there was a considerable protest from the British Council of Churches. Having regard to the way in which the Government—by reason of their crazy manipulation of interest rates in pursuance of financial theories which are as dead as the dodo—have caused havoc in the gilt-edge market and among the savings of thousands of people who put their trust in Government funds, I am expecting that if at the time of the next Budget the Chancellor brings in an extension of his lottery bonds, the anti-gambling committee of the Council of Churches will congratulate him on bringing in a security which is the least speculative of all the Government holdings available to the public.
We have got into a parlous state where the Government, knowing perfectly well that the investments—I said of thousands, but it is probably tens of thousands, or even of millions of people—are invested in good faith in Government stock and Government finance, almost completely disregard their moral obligations to those people. This Government have done the things with regard to the savings of the people who had confidence in Government stock. First, they have encouraged and accelerated the tendency of the £ to be devalued in purchasing power and, secondly, they have deliberately brought about a position in the gilt-edge market where War Loan and other forms of saving popular among most of the people in this country have sharply depreciated.
350
The Government are responsible and before we give the Minister this facility in respect of an Indian family pension fund, I want him to tell the House why we should acquiesce in this, while the Government do nothing on behalf of those tens of thousands of small savers whose f.'s have depreciated in value by reason of Government action. I hope that no one is under the illusion that when gilt-edge depreciates the Government look at the matter regretfully. The Government have deliberately brought that about. In the first place, they have misguidedly brought about an increase in Bank Rate, which automatically brings down the price of existing long-term Government securities. The small savers in this country tend to invest in these long-term securities such as War Loan, Savings Bonds and the rest.
The Government did all this without warning the people. Not only have they depreciated stock by raising Bank Rate, but they have deliberately manipulated the market in gilt-edged. The Government have been steadily selling down the price of gilt-edged. The long-term gilt-edged bond market in London is managed at the direction of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If there is a drop in the value of that stock the people of the country ought to know that it has been brought about by the deliberate intent and action of this Government.
That raises another important point about these Indian pensioners. Can we trust this Government to invest even 7 per cent. of the pension fund in fixed interest stocks when they are driving the market down in gilt-edged stock? How can we trust the Government to invest wisely in these fixed interest stocks? They have invested in debenture stocks. We have an outstanding example of how these gentlemen who are to play the markets with public funds had an excellent chance to invest in debenture stocks, because the Government would have had the right as shareholder in British Petroleum to subscribe half the £40 million convertible debentures. That gave to the subscribers the best of both worlds because they had the right to convert into ordinary shares and if, surprisingly enough, this Government stayed in for many years and the rise in the cost of living continued the pension trustees could have converted B.P. stock into ordinary shares.

351
If, on the other hand, the Labour Party comes back and keeps the cost of living steady and has an expanding and prosperous industry on sane fixed interest investment so that fixed interest stocks are desirable, they could keep the B.P. stock as it is. They could have had the best of both worlds, stock suitable to a Tory Government—one which could be hastily converted into ordinary shares where the Government are saving at the expense of the old-age pensioner and all who live on fixed incomes, excluding the professional man and people who contribute in many directions to fixed incomes in other words, the Commissioners could convert into ordinary stock.
If, however, we got a sane Labour Government they could have the best of that world and remain on a form of 6 per cent. fixed interest security. Incidentally, if the Government got into one of their panics and did not know whether to convert or stay with a fixed interest security, they could sell the whole lot for several millions, because there is a fixed premium on the stock.
The people who tonight are asking for wide powers to play the markets are those who, with the right to subscribe to £20 million worth of B.P. stock or thereabouts, chose not to exercise that right so that it fell to a whole host of small investors and none came to the country. They could have made a profit on it, but chose to put it out as a kind of bonne-bouche to those who had time to fill in an application form for conversion stock. Those who were entitled to £2 million or £3 million had it thrown away by this Government. Why should we trust them when they have made a present to 2,000 speculators of £2 million of money? When they had a chance to change it into B.P. stock which other investors could take advantage of, this Government refused to take advantage of it and threw away their rights. A dreadful series of problems faces us tonight in this regard.
I hope that the Minister will reply to this question. Why should we give him power to invest in debentures when he had the power to subscribe £20 million in the best debenture issue that has been offered on the market in the last ten years—according to the unanimous City
352
and professional opinion on the matter? Seeing that he has rejected the best debenture issue ever offered in the last ten years, with rights to convert into ordinary shares thrown in for nothing, is he now awaiting for "dud" debentures before subscribing? If he is not to invest in the best, we must take it that he is asking for power to invest in the worst.
Why did he refuse to subscribe to the debenture stock recently issued by B.P.? I hope he will not tell us what some of the newspapers have tried to tell us, that the public got half of the stock in any case, and that the public are the same as the citizens of this country. It is just not true. When the Government hold B.P. they hold it on behalf of the entire nation, but this £20 million which should have been public property in B.P. convertible debenture stock now belongs to quite a small circle of speculators who are busy catching their seven-point premium on the market today and tomorrow.
Why, therefore, should a Government, who reject the best investment in recent years that they could have had, in the debenture stock and ordinary shares of a fine company, which they themselves control and to which they appoint directors to represent them—why should they be trusted when they are so inept in their handling of public money? Why should we trust such a Government? Why should they be allowed to have the powers sought here. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) has said, however attractive it is from certain points of view to see the Government investing public funds in ordinary shares, we are not altogether satisfied that we should let this Order go through without recording our protest at the kind of Government that seeks these powers.
Another thing that worries me is this. As has been asked by my hon. Friend, how will we explain to our constituents that we voted for a form of trustee investment of pension funds for these widows and orphans which is denied to superannuation funds and to old-age pension funds in this country? But it goes further than that. At the present time, if an infant gets damages in court and those damages are invested by the court, the judge, however benevolent, however intelligent, or however progressive, might very well say

353
to himself, "Well, with this collection of fogey-ridden economists in power, who are performing extraordinary acrobatics with Bank Rate, it is obviously unwise for me to invest this injured child's money in gilt-edged. Until there is a saner Government, I should like to see that child's money invested in something suitable or safe." But he has no power except to put that money into Government funds.
How are we to explain this to the country's lawyers, who have to see to widows' and children's funds recovered in accident and damages cases? We have seen those funds forcibly put into War Savings at 100, and have then watched that War Loan being driven down deliberately by these peculiar financial policies of the Government to something like 61 or 62. So the injured widow and the injured infant have to sit trapped with their money in court. The judge is trapped. He may think that the Government are wise, but even if he thinks that they are foolish and that the invest also is foolish, he, too, is trapped.
Ought the House to take these measures, obviously necessary on behalf of the pensioners affected by this Order, while, at the same time, leaving this disparity in the treatment of the funds in court of injured widows and children?
I should like to know from the Minister- whether he is content, on the one hand, to say, as he does by this Motion, that there shall be this advantageous way of dealing with Indian pension funds, spreading the fund from ordinaries through debentures to gilts, and, on the other hand, to do nothing at all for those people who have funds in court as a result of accidents and who are under a legal disability which prevents them from using that money in those wise ways themselves.
I see that you have returned to the Chair, Mr. Speaker, and you may remember the words I addressed to the Chancellor about it in the economic debate. I pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman that, accepting a situation of continuous full employment and a slight tendency to inflation, it was possible to make prudent arrangements to invest funds. Of course, the Chancellor, with that alert. "Boy Scout troop leader" air which marks him on the occasions when
354
he is being pontifical and less confident, said that I may be able to contract out of inflation but the ordinary people of the country cannot. There is, he said, only one answer, and that was provided by the kind of Governmental intervention in financial and economic policy which he proposed.
This is not only a vote of no confidence in gilt-edged securities which we are asked to give tonight we are asked also to give a vote of no confidence whatever in the Chancellor's own policies. That I will readily do. When I said in the debate that the right course in dealing with inflation was to accept that there will be a tendency to currency inflation, and that proper steps must be taken to protect savers and victims of inflation, the Chancellor said that to attempt to contract out of inflation will only make it worse: what we must do, he said, is to stop it and then there will not be any need to contract out.
I see that the Commissioners who are responsible for widows and orphans do not believe the Chancellor. They think that the right thing to do is to contract out of inflation. I heartily agree with them. If any widow or orphan were honestly to place any confidence in the success of policies so muddled, misguided and contradictory as this Government have produced in financial matters, that would indeed be a piteous spectacle. I am glad to see that the Order shows that the Commissioners do not think very much of the Chancellor's bold assertions about what he will do to protect the country from further erosion of the currency.
Three weeks before the Government gave us what has been called a swingeing increase in Bank Rate, they assured us that the most important thing was not to keep the currency value steady but to keep full employment and prosperity. It is alarming to find that the same Government which then brought in the swingeing increase in Bank Rate, and all that flowed from it, including a very lengthy tribunal hearing, are showing now that they do not think that that Bank Rate will do much good. What is the Minister to say tonight to the people of the country who hold gilt-edged as their savings? Is the message to them to get out while the going is good and go into equities? Is it a message of no

355
confidence? If it is, it is rather belated. All this is really very shocking.
This selective intelligence is to be applied to a very worthy class of people. I should not like it to be thought for a moment that, because I compare the treatment which they are receiving with the treatment given to ordinary folk who have saved, who are pensioners, or who have had accidents and have had their funds invested in gilt-edged—which the Chancellor then proceeds to bash down in value—I am not in favour of doing the best possible for what is a very deserving class of people.
I am sure that it is the view of every hon. Member on this side of the House that we want to ensure that there is not a discrepancy between the intelligent selection applied to that problem and that applied to the ordinary people of this country. There might be such an affront to public morality that the gain to the Indian pensioners we are discussing would be outweighed by the damage done at home, and the dismay caused at the thought that they are investing in Government securities which are not protected in any way. I should like the Minister who is to reply to say whether he intends to do something for the small savers who have been so badly damaged.
I will gladly vote for this Order if the Government will give an assurance tonight that the ordinary small saver, whom they have nearly ruined, will get some compensation from this reckless and incompetent Government. Will the Government do anything from now on to gear the Savings Bonds to the cost of living index? They have asked for immense sacrifices from the country in order, as they claim, to keep and preserve the value of the £.
Mr. John Peyton: On a point of order. May I ask whether this speech is in relation to the interests of the people who are intended to be benefited by this Order, or whether we are descending into a general economic debate, which the hon. Member is handling with great skill? I would ask whether this is not becoming a purely political debate, which has nothing to do with the Order.
The Speaker: I have listened closely to what the hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. H. Lever) has said, and
356
so far I have not heard him say anything which was definitely out of order. He asked me whether I remembered what he said on a previous occasion, and what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said on a previous occasion, during an economic debate. I regret to say that I have completely forgotten what he said and what the Chancellor said, but the mere fact that he asked me to remember such a remote occasion led me to the suspicion that he was, perhaps, getting a little remote from the Order. So far, the hon. Member has not transgressed the boundaries, but I would urge him to exercise reason in the matter.
Mr. Lever: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, and I hope I will not transgress the rules of order. Nor, I hope, will you take it as discourteous if I do not, as suggested, repeat verbatim what I said and what the Chancellor said on the occasion in question. You will appreciate that that is due to my anxiety to be as brief as possible.
The hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) really must not expect the House to vote on the manner in which Indian pension funds should be invested in this country without having some regard to the general economic and investment background. I am sure he will not take it as intentional discourtesy on my part if I say that he has, perhaps, been dozing because of the lateness of the hour. I pointed out the extreme relevance of this. Any investor knows that what is a good investment under a Labour Government is a bad investment when the Conservatives are in power.
The Speaker: I think we are getting beyond the scope of the Order.
Mr. Lever: I am trying to get the hon. Member for Yeovil, who obviously has a keen interest in this debate, to see the reason why he has now followed these aspects of the matter, but I know there must be many hon. Members anxious to speak on both sides of the House.
I want to ask the Minister why what is a prudent investment for deserving pensioners under this Order is forbidden by law to English trustees administering funds for orphans? Why is what is desirable and prudent for these pensioners forbidden by law to injured infants in this country, who are compelled against

357
their will to put their money received as damages for injury, into Government stocks which are at the mercy of Government policy? The third question is this. In asking for this permission to bring in power to invest in ordinary stocks, are the Government completely satisfied that no danger of political interference or of economic disruption or jobbery of any kind would be involved in public ownership of shares in public companies in this country?
Fourth, do the Government, accepting that this is clearly a vote of no confidence in gilt-edged as an investment for the small savers and pensioners, intend to do anything at all for the small savers who have been the victims of the Government's policy in the gilt-edged market and in the Bank Rate and for the economic situation of this country?
11.11 p.m.
Sir Patrick Spens: I have listened to many parties in opposition as they attempted to extend into a far-reaching debate a debate on a comparatively very small issue, and I congratulate the Opposition on taking their opportunity tonight, on what is a very limited question, to turn the debate into one much more appropriate to a very different occasion. I want to speak only on behalf of those who are to benefit under this Order when the House passes it.
This request, that the powers to invest these funds should be enlarged, dates back many years, at least to the time when the Labour Party was in power, and, I suspect, much farther back than that. These are not public funds. These are funds compulsorily and partly voluntarily subscribed by those who served in India and those who left widows and orphans behind them. Those widows and orphans have to live on the income from these funds. For years it has been known that if there were wise trustees in charge of them, and if they were given wider powers over investment, the annuities payable to the widows and children could he substantially increased.
I thank my hon. Friend and the Government as a whole for at last making this small concession to us. I have no personal interest in the matter. I did not come under the funds. No widow or orphans of mine will benefit, but I know many widows and children
358
who are struggling along on a small income coming from the present investment of these funds. The Government are quite right.
This is a demand for all trustees, including the ones the hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. H. Lever) referred to, trusts who are strictly bound to invest in trustee securities. Many of us want the Trustee Acts extended because we know well that it is not the Government who make securities go up and down but the whole economic situation of the world. Government policy has little to do with it. We are all interdependent today economically and in every other way. Everybody knows perfectly well that if one has good funds to invest it is wise to put some yin trustee securities, but one likes to invest a portion in equities, bonds, and so forth.
Mr. H. Lever Mr. H. Lever rose—
Sir P. Spens: The hon. Member has spoken for the most part of three-quarters of an hour already, and I will not give way to him. I will not be led into a debate on the economic ethics of investment. Hon. Members opposite tell us that they want the Order; well, then let us get it through. Let us get it through quickly so that they can be satisfied.
I merely wish to say that, for those who are to benefit, I thank the Government and tell Her Majesty's Ministers that they will bring great additional happiness to many deserving widows and orphans.
11.14 p.m.
Mr. Maurice Orbach: I do not want to disturb the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport—
Mr. Gerald Nabarro: The hon. Member means the Ministry of Works.
Mr. Orbach: —Ministry of Works, but I wish that other Members were here because I want to speak on two other aspects of the Order.
First, let me say that I am happy that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Kensington, South (Sir P. Spens) agrees that the Labour Party, in the wise investment policy which it

359
had, was doing good work. I wish that he would extend this to a national superannuation scheme.
Sir P. Spens Sir P. Spens rose—
Mr. Orbach: The right hon. and learned Gentleman did not give way just now, but I at least am prepared to be polite. I will give way.
Sir P. Spens: I thank the hon. Member. All I wanted to say was that it depends on who is to manage the fund.
Mr. Orbach: Exactly. That is just what I propose to talk about. I should like to invite the attention of hon. Members to the second sub-paragraph of paragraph 12 of this Order. Here we are concerned with investment in money and, as it states,
"… the advance of money upon the security of any real or leasehold property in the United Kingdom".
But the Minister of Housing and Local Government is not here, nor is his Parliamentary Secretary. Who is to speak about housing? Certainly not the Minister, if he were here, because so far as his own constituents are concerned, he sends back letters from those who complain about housing.
We are asked tonight to approve an Order which requests the Commissioners to advance money upon any real or leasehold property in the United Kingdom. That is the sort of policy which everybody would advocate if there were funds for the purpose, because it might take away some of the worst effects of the Rent Act which this Government have imposed, and I suggest that on any future occasion when an Order of this description is introduced to the House, we have present a Minister responsible for what-ever issues may be raised. We have had complaints before about the absence of Ministers from their places, and it is about time that Ministers tried to recognise that hon. Members may need an explanation about the many issues which may be raised.
The right hon. and learned Member for Kensington, South said that we wanted to get this Order through quickly; but this is not the Reichstag, it is the House of Commons, and every hon. Member is entitled to debate, every one of the issues presented by this Order. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for Common-
360
wealth Relations, who is to reply to the debate, will give an answer to this specific point. Who are these Commissioners? Who are these people who have these great and extraordinary powers given to them? Are they to be people who will have a dual responsibility? Are they to be questioned as a matter of conscience as to whether they are acting in the interests of the nation or of an individual?
Mr. Alport: I can answer the hon. Gentleman straight away on that point. They will be the Public Trustee, the Accountant General of the Commonwealth Relations Office, a representative of the insurance companies—to give the view of the City—and two representatives of the subscribers to the fund.
Mr. A. G. Bottomley: Is the Minister quite right? Is it two from the City?
Mr. Alport: One from the City and two representatives of subscribers to the fund.
Mr. Orbach: This brings the matter right on to the Floor of the House. This is where it becomes very difficult, unless we have many more questions answered, to decide whether we can rubber-stamp this Order as the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington. South required us to do. Who is the City? What is the City? What is this amorphous body called the City? Is it the City which says that it may be anti-British—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is now getting geographical. He ought to stick to the Order more closely than this.
Mr. Orbach: I will, of course, defer to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, and I agree that perhaps I was getting a little beyond the bounds of order.
Perhaps I might ask who is the individual concerned. Who is to be named as a responsible person from the City representing insurance companies, to be a Commissioner to decide how money shall be invested? Surely there will be a conflict of interests at all times. I think the House is entitled to know. Until the hon. Gentleman replies to a question of that sort, I do not think any Member would be prepared to vote for the Order. We should be prepared to vote for the Order on the basis of representatives from the Public Trustees Office. But a

361
Commissioner may be a director of B.P., and the advice then given would be outrageous if it were advice similar to that which was criticised by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham, (Mr. H. Lever). I think the House is entitled to know who is the individual who will be a Commissioner representing what the Under-Secretary referred to as the City.
Frankly, Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that I was really out of order. The hon. Gentleman referred to a gentleman from the City, and that is a geographical place. It may, of course, be an insignificant one. It may be one which irritates us from time to time.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member was about to go into the matter of who the City was, more deeply than this Order requires.
Mr. Orbach: I will conclude by saying that I hope we shall be told before the debate proceeds much longer who the Commissioners are. Otherwise the debate may go on until the early hours of the morning and we may not get any other business done. The House has been kept too long in ignorance, and as a result of this sort of thing a great deal of disturbance is sometimes created throughout the country. I beg the Minister to name the individuals concerned and to say whether the policy relating to the purchase of leasehold and freehold properties is to be adopted generally throughout the whole of the investment policy of Her Majesty's Government.
11.24 p.m.
Mr. Michael Stewart: I should like to raise a small point concerning paragraph 12A (1) which states:
"The Commissioners may, as and when they think fit, realise, convert or otherwise deal with any investments held by them."
I am sure that that does not mean what any reasonable layman would think it meant. The powers given to the Commissioners grow steadily wider as the Orders go on, but this would appear to extend the powers completely, without limit, to do anything they think fit with the shares. I am sure it does not mean that. There are certain legal rules and interpretations of words to make them mean something else. I think we ought to know what this paragraph does mean
362
and what are the limits of the powers imposed in those words.
In general, the reason we are interested in this Order is that it embodies in practice an important new principle which has been taking shape in men's minds for some time. The principle is that in the kind of society in which we are now living it is neither sensible nor desirable that trust funds should be invested exclusively in fixed interest bearing securities they should be invested in ordinary or equity shares. I take it that the reason for that development of thought and practice is that, with the establishment of full employment, ordinary shares no longer carry the very considerable element of risk that some of them used to carry in the past. They have become a title deed upon the increase in the total national wealth.
As I see it, the way the distribution of wealth works out at present is this. If the total wealth of the country increases—as it does even under the present Government, though at a diminished rate—the first people who get a share of the increase are those whose incomes are in the form of profits and dividends on ordinary shares. Next come those who get wages or salaries, the place they occupy in the queue being determined by the bargaining power of their union or professional assocation. Last of all come pensioners and others on fixed incomes.
That is not a satisfactory way of arranging things. What we want is some kind of built-in arrangement, if I may borrow a phrase from the Labour Party's pamphlet, "National superannuation," so that as the nation's wealth increases, some part of the increase shall go to pensioners and persons on fixed incomes without their having to wait at the end of the queue.
An obvious device for securing that result is that the funds which care for their needs should, at any rate in part, be allowed to be invested in equity shares. It is true that this provision must have certain safeguards attached to it, and safeguards are, indeed, to be found in the Order. For example:
"The said stock or shares …"
must be
"… quoted on the London Stock Exchange or other recognised Stock Exchange."

363
Most of us will have noted with interest something that I did not know previously, that if one wants a definition of a "Stock Exchange" the document to which one turns is the Prevention of Fraud (Investments) Act, 1939.
In introducing the Order, the Minister claimed credit for the fact that it was a Conservative Government who were now beginning to put this idea into practice. We give him that freely. Most of us regard the principle in general as admirable, and it is true that wisdom sometimes speaks from strange mouths, even as Balaam's ass spoke when the prophets were silent.
There is a remarkable aspect of the Order which has not perhaps received sufficient attention so far. It will mean that the Commissioners become increasingly owners of property. In so far as that principle extends, we shall have what the Prime Minister called, in referring to the Labour Party's proposals, "nationalisation by the back door." To borrow words used by the Leader of the House earlier today, we do not know what state of mind the Prime Minister was in when he made that remark, still less what state of mind he will be in when he gets back and finds out what his colleagues have been doing in his absence. Clearly, it becomes nonsense to suggest that there is anything improvident in trust funds being used for the acquisition of actual property, real or leasehold property, or the actual physical property which ordinary shares represent.
The right hon. and learned Member for Kensington, South (Sir P. Spens) said that these were not public funds but were funds voluntarily and compulsorily subscribed for the purpose of pensions. Fundamentally, that is what the National Insurance Fund is, too. It consists of funds mainly compulsorily, though to a limited extent voluntarily, subscribed for the purpose of nourishing persons when they are of pensionable age. There is no valid ground for saying that a fund of that kind should not follow the general principle which this admirable Order contains.
There is only one ground upon which we could vote for the Order and oppose the Labour Party's national superannuation policy, and that is to say, "We are
364
concerned about the people to whom the Order relates, but not about any other kind of pensioner." It will be recognised that most of the persons who will benefit by the operation of the Order are somewhat better off than the average old-age pensioner. I do not object to that; many are people who have rendered very distinguished public service. But it is quite wrong, when we have an admirable principle applied to their protection, to say that because they happen to be a little better off than the general run of pensioner this advantage should be confined to them.
I cannot feel that the Government will be able to put forward that proposition. It seems to me, therefore, that although my hon. Friends have expressed slightly different emphasis in this matter, the general consensus of opinion among Members on this side of the House—if I have followed correctly the arguments that have been adduced so far—is that we heartily welcome the principle embodied in the Order, but we shall point out the general importance of that principle and the importance of its extension.
11.31 p.m.
Mr. Wedgwood Benn: Although it is not my purpose to deal with City questions, I should perhaps say a word about your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, that the City is significant only as a geographical area. The City is of special significance to this House, in that the hon. Member who represents it is, by tradition, allowed to sit on the Front Bench, and the Lord Mayor and the Sheriffs of the City are the only remaining people who are allowed to petition the House. I hope that it will not pass unnoticed that the City is regarded by the Speaker of the House of Commons as being only a geographical area.
At any rate, this order is a very interesting one, because it is one of the very few Orders remaining under the Government of India Act, 1935. That Act, which is quoted at the beginning of the Order, is no longer printed in the Statutes Revised, but I want to refer the Minister to a complaint made by the present Attorney-General in 1950 to my right hon. Friend, who was then Secretary for Overseas Trade, that all the references were not properly given in the Order at that time, and that it was a small but

365
important point. It is because the Government of India Act of 1935 has been repealed, and is in continuation by virtue of Section 8 (3) of the Indian Independence Act, 1947 that, if I may repeat the words of the present Attorney-General, it would be more helpful to the House if we had the full references in the Order.
What we are concerned with is the substance of the Order, and to get to that one has to refer back to the debate of 1936, which was introduced by the present Leader of the House, who was then Under-Secretary of State for India. He moved the original India (Family Pension Funds) Order and explained, in greater detail than we have had tinight, the reason why the Order had to be brought into effect and also exactly what was involved. As the present Leader of the House said, twenty-one years ago, this was a way of consolidating the various funds that are in existence-in India so that those who would benefit by them were able to transfer the money back to the United Kingdom and have them invested in their interest here. Later, Sir Reginald Craddock made a rather significant statement of his views which, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to quote. He was himself in some way connected with the Family Pension Funds and he said:
"As the House has been informed there are several Funds concerned, and in some cases the funds do not exist except in the form of an obligation on the part of the Government of India the administration of the Funds having always been maintained at the India Office."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November, 1946; Vol. 317, c. 1183.]
We are, therefore, dealing not just with existing funds—as hon. Members who have already spoken have said—but with money which derives from an obligation maintained by the India Office to certain people who worked for the India Office; and the significance of that I hope to point out in a moment. At any rate, at that time we know that there were 10,000 people concerned. We do not know whether the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington, South (Sir P. Spens), who is knowledgeable on these matters, is able to tell us how many are involved at the moment. Presumably, the number has been reduced by death.
The only point I wish to make is the point about the extending of the powers
366
of the Commissioners to invest in ordinary equities. If one looks at the phrase in the Explanatory Note to this Order one sees that the Commissioner's powers of investment are
… subject to conditions laid down in the Order, to invest in industrial concerns."
That is almost word for word the same phrase as is used by the Labour Party in a pamphlet published this summer, in which it says:
"We therefore believe that the investment policy of the National Pensions Fund should be controlled by trustees appointed by the Government who should have the same opportunities to carry out profitable investment of their funds as private insurance companies."
And there is an almost identical word for word repetition in the Labour Party's scheme with the one we have in the Order tonight.
I think it worth while to do so, and so I propose briefly to take the House through the comments made about this. I make no reference to the Labour Party's particular scheme, but to the proposal to permit investment in industrial concerns which created a certain amount of comment last summer. Mr. Oliver Poole made a statement on the very day that this pamphlet was published. He is very quick off the mark, as we know. He said:
"As I suspected when I commented on their plans for superannuation, they intend to use pension contributions as one means of getting their hands on industry. Instead of thinking how to reduce taxation they propose that the State should use public money … to buy shares in private companies."
This is the view of the then Chairman of the Conservative Party. He has since been made Vice-Chairman. He has been promoted below Lord Hailsham, if I may put it in that way.
Mr. Alport: As I think was said by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, South (Sir P. Spens), we are not dealing with public money in this Fund.
Mr. Benn: I am grateful to the hon. Member for contributing something to the debate. He sits for Colchester and up to now he has maintained his reputation as an oyster.
If Sir Reginald Craddock was correct and he spoke with authority in 1936 on this matter, funds do not exist except in the form of an obligation through the India Office. Therefore, what we are

367
dealing with is a public obligation. I wish to make perfectly clear that I am not in any way denigrating the service of the people who served in India, or their pensions. Indeed, I am trying to see that the procedure adopted tonight is one which ought to be generally applicable.
Mr. T. L. Iremonger: When the hon. Member read out the last quotation, did he not say, "The Government of India through the India Office"? I thought that the first time he said, "The Government through the India Office." I may be quite wrong.
Mr. Benn: I could quote it again, but it means going over the point again. It does not matter whether it is the Government of India or the India Office. The point is that it is a public obligation. No one is trying to repudiate this obligation. We are discussing how to implement it to the full and I am in favour of the Order.
The fact is that the comparison between the superannuation we proposed to set up and this is exact. In both cases it relates to persons whom we believe are owed an obligation by the State. In one case it is for service to the State and in the other case people who have worked for the community. In both cases commissioners are to be appointed by the Government. Under this Order the Public Trustee is one commissioner and the others are to be appointed by the Secretary' of State. In our case, although no actual details were made public, it is obvious that they will be Government appointed commissioners who will be responsible. I am dealing with what the Conservative Party thinks about giving permission to commissioners and public trustees to invest in industrial—
Mr. Speaker: That large issue is not raised on this Order. The hon. Member should confine himself to the advisability or otherwise of permitting the commissioners on this particular Order to invest their funds in the way that is intended.
Mr. Benn: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for pointing out the relevance of this point because, of course, the principle of public trustees investing in an industrial concern is one by which we shall judge this Order. I would never dream, nor would my hon. Friends dream, of judging an individual case by an individual principle, but I am seeking
368
to apply a general principle to this matter. Of course, like many hon. Members, I utterly reject the views of Mr. Oliver Poole on this subject.
Mr. Speaker: I do not think that Mr. Oliver Poole has given any views on the subject of this Order.
Mr. A. Blenkinsop: Further to that point of order—
Mr. Speaker: A point of order has not been raised. Does the hon. Member desire to raise a point of order?
Mr. Blenkinsop: On a point of order. For the future conduct of this debate we should know what is in order and what is not in order, Sir. If we are to decide properly whether these commissioners should be given the wider powers proposed in this Order it is surely proper that we should discuss the principle of the wider power to be given.
Mr. Speaker: It depends on what the hon. Member means by the principle. I do not think it is in order, on this Order, to discuss what I understand the hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) was discussing, namely, a proposal on the part of the State as a whole to buy over securities. I think that is very remote from this Order.
Mr. Benn: May I try to explain the point I am trying to make, which is that in neither case is the State involved? In both cases, in the superannuation fund and in this scheme, the State appoints trustees and we are considering in each case whether trustees appointed by the Government ought to be allowed to invest in private industry.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is entitled to refer to that matter by way of illustrating his argument. The matter he is talking about, namely, the appointment by his party, or the State, of commissioners is not in issue at the moment. The point really is whether these commissioners should have this power. I do not think that beyond merely illustrating his argument the hon. Member is in order, as it is too remote from this Order.
Mr. Benn: I am not dealing, nor have I sought to deal at any stage, with the right of the State to appoint commissioners. I am dealing entirely with the

369
powers of commissioners who have already been appointed by the State and I am arguing that this Order introduces a new principle, which I wholly support, but which is contrary to all the views expressed by hon. Members opposite when exactly the same principle was recently described. I am not in any way seeking to extend this argument by considering the merits of the Labour Party scheme published last summer. I am dealing only with the exact powers of public commissioners.
I am bound to refer to Sir Oscar Hobson's view, published by the Conservative Central Office, in which he says, in reference to public commissioners investing, that
"The State will inevitably be drawn into controlling what is now private industry …"
It is certainly true that if this Order goes through the commissioners will be drawn into controlling investment, and Sir Oscar Hobson, whose views have been given publicity by the Conservative Central Office, to whom I am indebted for giving me this pamphlet, says this is
"towards the establishment of Communism."
Now we come to another aspect of the matter. I agree that it is a ludicrous assertion of Sir Oscar Hobson, but it is one given the blessing of the Conservative Central Office. We come back again to this question of whether, in fact, an insurance fund operates or not, and I will not, even for the benefit of the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger), read this quotation again. I would, however, ask the House to remember that a fund does not actually exist. Last year, a statement issued by the Life Offices' Association, and by the Associated Scottish Life Offices, laid down certain principles about pensions which would cover this particular Order and meet this point. They were, of course, referring to the Labour scheme, but the point of principle they wanted to underline is the same.
They said:
"The new scheme would, therefore, differ from ordinary pension schemes in that it would not build up a fund commensurate with its vast commitments."
That is exactly the parallel of what we have here. The fund, in modern circumstances, has not been built big enough. They then go on to say:
370
"If the money were used for the piecemeal acquisition of controlling interests in industry—"
which is exactly the principle of this Order—
"it would introduce a new and politically controversial factor into the field of pensions."
We entirely agree with that and with the Order—and I am speaking in support of the Order.
Now we come to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself said about this principle. He was referring to the Socialist scheme and to the principle involved in it. He said:
"… It is expensive enough to have a pension scheme at all for social purposes. But if you add to those purposes the purpose envisaged by the Socialist Party of collecting contributions to buy off bits of British industry it is going to be much more expensive, and contributions will be correspondingly higher."
So we have the view of the Chancellor that such a scheme as is advocated by this Order will be anything but beneficial to the people concerned.
Finally, we come, of course, to the statement issued by the Conservative Central Office, that the threat of nationalisation is implicit in this scheme. It is not only the Conservative Party that has attacked this scheme. We have also the Liberal Party. I do not know where the Liberal representatives are tonight. I did contact the Leader of the Liberal Party, and asked whether he could make it possible for his "shadow" Minister of Pensions to come here tonight.
The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), in a statement issued about a month after the issue of the Socialist scheme, said:
"The present Socialist tendencies of both Labour and Tories, having destroyed the gilt-edged markets, they are now determined to seize the equity market as well."
Although late in the field, therefore, the Liberals issued that warning. I do not know where they have been since 1951, but there it is.
Here we have a scheme, Mr. Speaker—and I sum up what I have said—which, to meet the obligations to the Indian pensioners—which I fully support—comes out with a special treatment of them which allows the trustees to invest that money in equities, against the advice of the Conservative Central Office, of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of Sir Oscar Hobson, and of all the City wise men—against the advice of the Liberal

371
Party, and, probably, if we only knew it, against the advice of the National Liberals and everyone else. Against all that advice, the Minister advocates the scheme without giving us any real details at all.
As I say, I am fully in support of the scheme, but I would really have liked the hon. Gentleman, in introducing the Order, to have told us how much money is involved and how many pensioners are left. Is it a large or a small sum of money? Has it accrued, or has it diminished? I rather guess that only a very small number of people and a very small amount of money are involved, but the principle is important, and we have seen the passionate advocacy of the scheme by the hon. Gentleman in opening this debate.
It proves that all these other statements that I have read—which distressed you so much, Mr. Speaker, that you found them out of order—are, in fact, eyewash. No one at all believes them. We all know that the State has an obligation to the pensioner which we must meet as best we can. And if we appoint Commissioners to look after those interests, we expect them to do what the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Kensington, South or the Minister says they should do—to make the best of the market.
I shall certainly, in my constituency, give wide publicity at the next Election to the speech of the Minister, and I hope that, through the Order now before us, the light may shine gradually into the minds of hon. Members opposite, first, into the minds of those few who are here to see that there is not a count, and then into the minds of those in the Library and other parts of the Palace, until, finally, Mr. Oliver Poole becomes demoted to Deputy Vice-Chairman of the Conservative Party.
11.50 p.m.
Mr. A. G. Bottomley: The Minister has given us a clear statement of the facts, and, of course, those of us who had had opportunity of reading the Order and the Explanatory Note were already acquainted with those.
I thought that the right hon. Gentleman did less than justice when he intro-
372
duced political acrimony into a discussion of an Order which all of us—at least, all those who knew anything about it—were agreed upon. If he had taken the trouble to see that during the period of the Labour Government, on 28th June, 1950, a scheme of this kind was introduced for exactly the purpose contained herein, he would have noted that many of the facts adduced by him tonight were just those which were advanced by myself, deputising for the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations on a later occasion, my right hon. Friend being then out of the country.
As one of my hon. Friends has said, I was then Secretary for Overseas Trade. In the OFFICIAL REPORT for 6th July, 1950, column 789, the Minister will be able to see for himself that I advanced the arguments which he has put forward in order to secure the acceptance of the Order.
The right hon. and learned Attorney-General who then sought to cross swords with me was not in any way as competent as my hon. Friends who put most searching questions tonight. All that the Attorney-General could then do was to criticise one failing in the presentation of the scheme, and even this Government do not learn by experience, because they have made the same mistake on this occasion. I will pursue that no further, but I am bound to say that I hope the Minister will be in a position to give satisfactory answers to the very searching questions already put to him. I should like to add some for myself.
I well know the knowledge on this subject of the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington, South (Sir P. Spens), having seen him during his period of excellent service in India and discussed with him many of these matters. He will know that there were four funds originally, intended to provide for the widows and children of certain military and civil officers of the Indian Service. Those funds were, in due course, transferred to the Commissioners in the United Kingdom. We do not often pay tribute to the excellent work which was done by those members of the Indian Service; they did a first-class job, which is now being recognised by Indians themselves. Indeed, as we know, a good many of them were encouraged to remain behind and carry on in the Government of India as

373
a separate independent Republic, and some are still serving. We have an obligation to these loyal ex-civil servants and their dependants which we must meet. We do what we can, and by this Order we are doing something, to see that they get a just reward.
Some of my hon. Friends, however, have asked how it can be that the Government can do what is here proposed, on the one hand, and, on the other, see the old-age pensioners suffer in this country. There is a responsibility towards both the Indian civil servants and their dependants and towards old-age pensioners here. Indeed, I would say to the Lord Privy Seal, who interrupted to say it is ridiculous, that if the Government had seen to it that recent investments in B.P. had been made by the Government to help old-age pensioners, that would have been something worth while. However, they did not show the same keen interest in the old-age pensioner in this country as they are rightly showing in pensions for the ex-Indian civil servant and Army officer.
Is there one set of Commissioners or are there two? As I understand, there is a separate system for the Civil Service and for the military officers. Is one set of Commissioners controlling both, or are there two? If there are two, can we be told more about them?
The Minister has told us that the Public Trustee is one member; there is a Commonwealth Relations officer who also is a representative. In the case of these representatives, I am sure that they are the most desirable candidates for posts as commissioners. We can offer no other than support for the elected representatives of the pensioners, those whom the pensioners sought to put in a position of responsibility. They must have faith in them. The other one is the City representative. I am sure that, whoever this representative may be, he knows all about selling gilt-edged stock. Perhaps we could know who he is and the association with whom he works. We have a right to know that.
I would also ask the Minister why it has been necessary to make an alteration in the four-year period. There is something to be said for continuity and having a man in a position where he knows that he will serve for a given period. Now the period is to be reduced.
374
There may be some good reason, but we should be told.
The other reason for the Order is that it is for the extension and consolidation of the commissioners' power of investment. They are now having the power to invest in industrial concerns—something which the Labour Government, when elected, is to do in a bigger way for the benefit of the people generally.
Some of my hon. Friends have been threatening to vote. They are doing so not because they are out of sympathy with the Bill, but because their threat is one of hostility to the policy of the Chancellor. This is not the occasion to exercise a vote of that kind.
I think we are in a false position. We find that hon. Members on the benches opposite are supporting Labour Party policy. I do not know what the reactionery members of the Conservative Party will say when they hear about this, or what the "Suez Group" will say. Significantly, they are absent tonight. We will leave it for difficulties to develop in the party opposite. There will be another split, and then an opportunity for a Labour Government to introduce this kind of Bill not only for Indian Civil Servants, but for pensioners generally in this country.
11.59 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. C. J. M. Alport): We have given to what is a fairly narrow measure a good deal of attention and, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Bottomley) said, a number of questions have been put to me. I hope it may be for the convenience of the House if I try to answer some of the matters raised.
Mr. James Callaghan: I hope that we are not to take it that the hon. Gentleman is thereby closing the debate.
Mr. Alport: First, let me refer to the commissioners. There are four groups of commissioners, each of which deals with a separate fund, there being four funds comprised in the scope of this particular scheme. The representative who brings to it expert knowledge of insurance problems, and who is nominated by the Secretary of State, is somebody who does not represent any particular firm

375
or group of firms, but who was selected because of his experience and because of the value of the advice he can give to his fellow commissioners.
I am certain that the right hon. Gentleman, when he was in office, was aware of this arrangement, which is similar today to what it has been for many years past, and will realise the value of the work which Mr. Shrewsbury, the representative concerned, has done in, the interests of what all hon. Members will regard as a very deserving fund and a deserving set of people.
Mr. Mellish: I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, for your help and guidance. There are some of us in the House who have a feeling that the Chief Whip is about to ask you to accept the Motion for the Closure. May I ask you what the position is? Would you bear in mind that the rule was suspended at 3.30 p.m. today to enable these matters to be properly and fully debated? Could we have an assurance that such a Motion would not be accepted?
Mr. Speaker: If the Closure, as it is called, is moved, I shall deal with that matter when it arises.
Mr. Alport: I think the hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. H. Lever) was under a misapprehension when he accused the Secretary of State of failing in his duties and of not taking advantage of the opportunities presented by the recent B.P. issue. The hon. Member was not aware that in this matter of investment the commissioners, once appointed, act completely independently. The Secretary of State has no duties or functions in investment. The commissioners themselves act as independent trustees and use their prudent judgment as to what may be most in the interests of the funds over which they have control.
Mr. H. Lever: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that it was the commissioners' view that, unlike every other professional investor, they should not exercise their right in priority over something like half the B.P. debenture stock?
Mr. Alport: I am not saying anything of the sort. The hon. Member showed a very great knowledge of all the various aspects of the work of investment. It was very interesting, coming from those
376
benches, considering what has been said in the past upon this subject. I thought he knew this matter very well, and would, therefore, have realised that this is quite irrelevant to the point I am making, which is that, contrary to what the hon. Member said, the Secretary of State has no responsibilities for any selection of investment on behalf of these funds.
What we are trying to do by this Order is simply to obtain for the commissioners of these four funds the same sort of facilities as are available to any trustee on application to the courts. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, South (Sir P. Spens) was quite correct when he said that these are private funds. These are moneys subscribed exclusively by the subscribers to these funds over the period of their service. They are not added to by the Government in any way. We have always treated it, and rightly, as being a fund over which the subscribers have a very considerable say.
Mr. William Ross Mr. William Ross (Kilmarnock) rose—
Mr. Alport: I hope that the hon. Member will allow me to reply to the questions which have been raised. There have been many, and I am doing my best to reply to them.
It is perfectly true that the salaries were originally paid by the Government but no contribution has been made from Government funds, comparable to what, I think I am right in saying, is the principle behind the Socialist Party's superannuation scheme.
I turn to another question raised by the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart). He asked me for an explanation of paragraph 12A (1). I should explain to him that this is merely a carry-over paragraph from an earlier Order, and the same as one which was included in the Order of 1950, I think, passed by the Labour Government. There is nothing sinister in this, as he suspected. It is included to ensure that the Commissioners have the full facilities which they require for the normal conduct of their business with these funds.
I was asked by the hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) what was the number of pensioners. It is 3,400. He also asked me the amount of the

377
funds. The amount of the funds is at present at cost about £10½ million. It will, therefore, be seen that only £3 million, or thereabouts, is at issue in the question of the investment in equity shares or preference shares. Therefore, the amount involved is very small indeed.
A number of hon. Gentleman on the other side tried to draw a parallel between this small amendment relating to what, to all intents and purposes, are private funds and the major scheme which they are in the process of launching politically, but there is no parallel at all. My hon. Friends do not in any way begrudge hon. Gentlemen opposite that they should have taken this opportunity of bringing out their pet scheme from the oblivion which has fallen on it in recent weeks; but I can
Question put accordingly and agreed to.
Resolved,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Government of
assure them that their scheme has no relevance whatever to the particular point which we are presenting to the House tonight in this Order.
Therefore, I hope that, in view of the importance of this matter, even although it is limited in scope to that group of people to whom my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Kensington referred, the House now feels able to give its approval.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Edward Heath)The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Edward Heath) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
Question put, That the Question be now put:—
The House divided: Ayes, 105, Noes, 18.

Division No. 23.]

AYES

[12.10 a.m.

Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

Hesketh, R. F.

Neave, Airey

Alport, C. J. M.

Hirst, Geoffrey

Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

Arbuthnot, John

Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n)

Oakshott, H. D.

Barlow, Sir John

Holland-Martin, C. J.

O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

Barter, John

Hornby, R. P.

Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-S-Mare)

Baxter, Sir Beverley

Hughes-young, M. H. C.

Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh,S.)

Peel, W. J.

Bidgood, J. C.

Hutchison, SirlanClark (E'b'gh, W.)

Peyton, J. W. W.

Bingham, R. M.

Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

Pitman, I. J.

Bishop, F. P.

Iremonger, T. L.

Pott, H. P.

Boyle, Sir Edward

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Powell, J. Enoch

Braine, B. R.

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Brooman-White, R. C.

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Prior-Palmer, Brig, O. L.

Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

Joseph, Sir Keith

Redmayne, M.

Channon, Sir Henry

Kaberry, D.

Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

Cole, Norman

Keegan, D.

Sharples, R. C.

Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

Kershaw, J. A.

Shepherd, William

Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

Kirk, P. M.

Spearman, Sir Alexander

Corfield, Capt. F. V.

Leavey, J. A.

Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir p. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

Elliott,R.W. (N'castle upon Tyne,N.)

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

Finlay, Graeme

Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

Gammans, Lady

Llewellyn, D. T.

Studholme, Sir Henry

Gibson-Watt, D.

Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

Temple, John M.

Glover, D.

Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

Thompson, Lt.-Cdr.R. (Croydon, S.)

Glyn, Col. Richard H.

Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

Godber, J. B.

Madden, Martin

Tilney, John (Wavertree)

Goodhart, Philip

Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

Gower, H. R.

Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

Vane, W. M. F.

Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

Marshall, Douglas

Vickers, Miss Joan

Green, A.

Mathew, R.

Wall, Major Patrick

Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

Mawby, R. L.

Whitelaw, W. S. I.

Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

Medlicott, Sir Frank

Wills, C. (Bridgwater)

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

Yates, William (The Wrekin)

Heald, Rt. Hon, Sir Lionel

Motion, Rt. Hon. Hugh

Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

Morrison, John (Salisbury)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

Nabarro, G. D. N.

Mr. Anthony Barber and Mr. Bryan.

NOES

Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Popplewell, E.

Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

MacDermot, Niall

Ross, William

Bowles, F. G.

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Yates, V. (Ladywood)

Callaghan, L. J.

Mellish, R. J.

Delargy, H. J.

Monslow, W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Foot, D. M.

Orbach, M.

Mr. John Taylor and

Herbison, Miss M.

Parkin, B. T.

Mr. Michael Stewart.

Howell, Denis (All Saints)

India (Family Pension Funds) (Amendment) Order, 1957, be made in the form of the Draft laid before this House on 20th November.
To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

BO'NESS DOCK (FUTURE)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Oakshott.]
12.15 a.m.
Mr. John Taylor: After our recent exercise in rather old style Parliamentary adventures, I hope that the House will forgive me if, without preamble, I plunge straightaway into the subject of the Adjournment debate. We have not much time, and the subject is a very important one to my constituents.
A month ago, on 16th November, the manager of the British Transport Commission's East Coast Scottish ports wrote to the Transport Users' Consultative Committee for Scotland. The gist of his letter was that consideration was being given to the closing down of Bo'ness Dock and Harbour on the Firth of Forth. The reason given for such a drastic proposal was that the dock had never paid its way during the ten years that it had been under the ownership of the Commission. It was stated in the letter that the total loss to the Commission during the ten years was almost £292,000. That is a calculation which I shall examine critically in a moment.
The manager's letter does not constitute an official approach such as is required by the appropriate section of the Transport Act, 1947. I am informed that the Transport Users' Consultative Committee for Scotland does not so regard it. It takes it as a courteous notification by the manager of a possible approach to one method of solving the financial problems of Bo'ness dock and a means whereby the problem can be brought sharply to the attention of everyone concerned, and it feels that it should be given an opportunity to state its views.
My speech tonight is the earliest indication of those views, and there will be many other indications before the matter is officially discussed by the Consultative Committee. It is an indication that the proposal to close Bo'ness dock, although it is at the moment tentative and exploratory, has caused astonishment, dismay and alarm among the townspeople, tradesmen and shipping interests of Bo'ness.
380
Within the brief time limit of this debate I shall endeavour not only to state the case for the retention of the dock but to submit suggestions as to how losses could have been avoided in the past and can be eliminated in the future. I shall also state why there is a very strong local belief that there has been undue discrimination by the Commission against the dock and harbour, and I shall also endeavour to submit that it would be more costly in the long term to close the dock than to retain it and put it into proper order.
First let me examine the bald statement that the total loss to the Commission from operating the dock during the past ten years was £292,000. No details at all were given. No information was supplied as to what proportions of this global figure were incurred by dredging costs, maintenance and repairs, wages, administration costs, or any other costs of operating the dock during the period.
There are no details of the annual costs in each of the ten years. There is no breakdown of the figures at all; there is just the bald statement of that global sum, spent over the decade. So far as I can ascertain, no allowance is made for the fact that the dredging and other costs of bringing the dock into usable condition after the war, when it was used by the Royal Navy as a training depot, were charged to Bo'ness Dock, or that any contribution to those costs was made by the Admiralty or by the L.N.E.R., who previously controlled the dock.
It will be seen that without these details it is very difficult to make a proper analysis of the total alleged losses. I am informed that two-thirds of these losses were incurred during the first five of these ten years, and that the remaining five years have accounted for only one-third of the total. In other words, the losses during the immediate post-war years were heavy, in all probability due to the high costs of rehabilitation after enforced war-time neglect, and in more recent years the losses have been a diminishing factor. It is my belief that with adequate dredging, reasonable encouragement and more general trade, this dock could be brought out of the red and could become a valuable asset to the Commission.

381
It is clear that more dock facilities will be required in the Bo'ness-Grangemouth area. Developments in this area are confidently expected. The House has fairly recently been considering—and it will again be doing so in the future—some very important potential developments in this area. The tendency towards European free trade will demand increased portage in the Firth of Forth, particularly for the smaller type of vessel for which Bo'ness is so well suited. It may well be that after all the various inquiries into the siting of the proposed new strip mill Grangemouth will be decided upon as the venue. I hope that it will, and if it is there will be a very great increase in the portage, wharfage and berthage required in the Bo'ness-Grangemouth area.
At present, in addition to its own trade Bo'ness takes the surplus trade from Grangemouth during the not infrequent times of congestion there. We do not grudge Grangemouth her increased trade in the docks. I am very glad to see that my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) here at this small hour of the morning in support of this case. I appreciate his attendance, and I assure him and his constituents that there is no grudge on the part of the constituents of the Burgh of Bo'ness about the prosperity of his burgh, which we hope will increase. In fact, the more it increases the more certain it is to require to use the present berthage of Bo'ness Dock.
If Bo'ness closed down additional berths would be required at Grangemouth, and the construction of even equivalent berths would involve a very heavy—I was about to say gigantic—expenditure, because it is a very expensive business to provide new docks, wharves and berths. Obviously, it would be very bad economics to incur this expenditure when the same result could be obtained at a low cost by the adaption of existing facilities as close at hand as Bo'ness, which is 2½ miles away from the dock gates.
Since the development of Grangemouth Docks, and until the beginning of the war, Bo'ness Docks were mainly operated to supply the needs of the coal industry. While, at present, it has a general trade in goods like fertilisers, cement, scrap
382
iron and timber, and while that trade could be developed, it is still possible for some practical encouragement to be given to the National Coal Board to use the dock more than it does.
The Commission has not claimed that its losses have been caused by overspending at Bo'ness, and no one could possibly make such a claim. It would be difficult to spend less than has been spent in maintenance. On dredging costs, the only expenditure of any importance in recent years has been £25,000 on the electrification of a power station, an economic measure, just completed, which is expected to pay for itself within three years. The other was the replacement of a weighing machine, which was absolutely necessary.
I am sorry to say that the Commission does not appear to realise the extent to which it has discouraged the use of the docks by shipowners and traders by neglect and the curtailment of facilities. The dredging arrangements have been consistently inadequate, inefficient and woefully out of date. The harbour has been allowed to silt up and sometimes vessels roll away from the berth because of the condition of the ground under the water and the fact that a vessel cannot settle flat on the ground. The equipment used for dredging is ludicrously obsolete. It consists of a bucket dredger, two barges and a tug. The barges can be filled in less than two hours. They then have to be towed down the Firth to the seaward side of the Forth Bridge. By the time they return it is too late for another load that day. It is estimated that it is costing the Commission 4s. per ton to remove mud from Bo'ness.
At the beginning of the year something very encouraging happened. A vigorous dredging programme began to operate. Great progress was made and conditions were better than anything experienced since the end of the war. Then, suddenly, all dredging stopped. No explanation was given, but there were rumours that the harbour berth was to be left to silt up and the berth put out of action. This welcome but too temporary increase in dredging activity coincided with the appointment of Captain Cooper as dredging master. He was a popular and highly efficient officer whose activities were beginning to transform the port. We now understand that his services have been terminated. Certainly, effective

383
dredging has been stopped and we wonder why an explanation was not given.
The hon. Gentleman may recall that in 1948 his Ministry appointed a working party to investigate the shipping turn-round in British ports. This working party recommended that the crane facilities in Bo'ness should be modernised as cranes became available. In spite of this Bo'ness was informed that the port would not get new cranes. During my youth I worked as a docker and I regard this matter with knowledge of the technical problems involved. It was a good many years ago when I was a docker, but even in my opinion the dock is old-fashioned.
The hon. Gentleman may recollect, if he has looked up the records of his Department, that four years ago the docks manager was in favour of removing the most efficient single piece of equipment on the dock, the turntable turning the best coal hoist in Bo'ness. I had to fight hard in this House to retain that turntable. There is not the slightest doubt that this dock has been neglected to a most reprehensible extent. I am not in the habit of using exaggerated language, but I believe that that statement is not an exaggeration; if anything, it is an understatement. Three or four years ago the dock police were withdrawn and a great deal of avoidable damage has been done to buildings and equipment. There are long delays in the services of maintenance and repairs. Naturally, and understandably, a strong volume of local opinion has grown up to the effect that this dock has been deliberately written down and neglected, and, some go as far as to say, sabotaged. There is a feeling that there is a strong managerial prejudice against the dock.
These views have been expressed with vehemence which is not conducive to good relations. I do not wish to exacerbate those feelings, but I claim that it would be a great injustice to close the dock. It would be an injustice to the shipping agents who have struggled against heavy odds to maintain the trade of the port. It would be an injustice to the dockers who, although they can find alternative work on Grangemouth docks, naturally prefer to work their own dock when trade is available.
384
It would be an injustice to the traders of Bo'ness, who depend on the import and export of goods and do not deserve to be deprived of facilities on which their businesses were founded, and an injustice to the Commission.
I believe that it might be made a paying concern. I claim that it would be possible, at comparatively low cost, to revitalise this dock and make it a port especially attractive to smaller vessels, for which there is a considerable and developing future. The Transport Acts of 1947 and 1953 both imposed certain general duties on the Commission, including the safeguarding of the needs of the public, of agriculture, of commerce and of industry. These needs exist in Bo'ness as well as elsewhere. Apart from the general welfare of the burgh, about 850 people are more or less directly concerned in the operation of the port. They are worried and distressed by the suggestion that it should be closed.
I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman has no direct ministerial responsibility in this matter and that all we can do tonight is to voice the anxieties and hope that they will be taken note of in the proper quarter. In doing so, I speak with the full support of every citizen of Bo'ness.
12.24 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Airey Neave): I am very glad to have this opportunity of replying to the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. J. Taylor) on the question he has raised as to the future of the Port of Bo'ness, because I know it is of considerable concern to his constituents and that he has presented his case in an admirable and effective way.
The hon. Member realises as well as I do that this is a matter for the British Transport Commission and that it will be for the Commission to decide, eventually, what the future of this port is to be. It has not made any decision yet. So far as the Transport Users' Consultative Committee for Scotland is concerned, if it makes representations to my right hon. Friend he will consider them. I will come to that point in a moment.
First, I would like to reply to the suggestion that this port has, in fact been neglected by the Commission, because

385
I do not think that that is really true. I cannot tonight deal with all the figures relating to the years since 1948, when it became vested in the British Transport Commission, but I would like to send the hon. Member some of the figures of the expenditure on this port, both on dredging and on other works.
The hon. Gentleman has suggested that the Commission has consistently neglected the dock and has not given it essential equipment; and that the dredging has been quite inadequate. I think that when I send him the figures he will probably agree that expenditure has been maintained at a consistently high level since 1948. In 1956, it was £27,329, and during the last eighteen months—as I think he himself knows—the electrification of the pumping plant at the hydraulic power station has been completed at a cost of £25,000, and the timber jetties at the dock entrance have been replaced at a cost of £7,000.
I am informed that no equipment has been removed from the port since the Commission took it over—
Mr. J. Taylor Mr. J. Taylor indicated dissent.
Mr. Neave: I gather that the hon. Gentleman disputes it.
Mr. Taylor: I do not exactly dispute it, but attempts were made to remove very valuable equipment, and we had to raise the matter in the House in an attempt to prevent that being done.
Mr. Neave: I am informed that, in fact, that has not happened and, if he made those attempts, the hon. Gentleman has so far succeeded.
The hon. Gentleman made a great point about dredging, but in fact, I am told that more dredging is being done now than there was before the war. From 1932 to 1939 inclusive, the annual average tonnage dredged amounted to 71,690 tons. Since 1948, the annual figure has been 78,600 tons; and for 1957 the figure will be even higher—in the neighbourhood of 85,000 tons. It is, therefore, not fair to say that dredging is not being carried out at the highest level possible at the present time.
Perhaps I may go now into the difficulties which the Commission has experienced with regard to the port, which has fallen on difficult times. One of the
386
problems is that there has been a decline in the export of coal for foreign and coastal trade, and in the import of pit props—the two main trades for which the port was primarily constructed. That has, of course, caused financial difficulties for the Commission.
The only coal for export now is the bunkering given to the few coal-burning vessels that come to the port; and pit props no longer need to be imported in the same quantity, because they are now being provided in increasing quantities by the Scottish home timber industry. That has resulted in a decline in the total volume of imports and exports at the port from 200,000 tons in 1948 to 156,000 tons in 1956. The outlook is rather depressing. It is not a very bright picture.
The hon. Gentleman drew attention to the financial position, and I might say that, since 1948, for every £ of revenue that the Commission has received it has spent nearly £2 8s. on maintenance and operation expenses—not counting the interest charges on capital invested. I will not go into those further, because I should like to send him all the figures that I have, so that he can study them, and he will then, I think, find the position to be as I have stated.
The hon. Gentleman will be aware, of course, that neither the Commission nor my right hon. Friend have any power to direct shipowners, exporters or importers, as to which port they should use. He mentioned that he thought the Coal Board should play a part in this matter. It is perfectly true that the coal industry was once the mainstay of the port, but the Board regrets that it cannot see its way to produce the traffic for it, nor do shipowners and merchants seem able to help.
The position, therefore, as the hon. Gentleman states, is that the Transport Commission's Docks Manager for the East Coast Scottish Ports has written, to the various interested bodies, the letter of 16th November which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, and, in particular, to the Transport Users' Consultative Committee for Scotland. It is, I think, technically right to state that the Commission has, in part, referred the problem to the Committee for consideration under the Transport Act, 1947. Of course, it has also been referred to other interested bodies. It is for the Transport Users' Consulta-

387
tive Committee to consider what action it wishes to take, and I understand that the Committee has asked these other bodies to inform them of any objections which they may wish to make to the possible closure of the port. I understand that meetings are likely to be held with representative of the Commission on this whole matter. Obviously, my right hon. Friend, as I have said, will give serious consideration to any recommendation that the Consultative Committee may make to him on the subject.
I should like to express to the hon. Member for West Lothian my sympathy
388
in this problem, and I want him to understand that we realise the anxiety which is felt in his constituency. I should not like to go into the question of Grangemouth at this stage, particularly since we have here tonight the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson), who represents that part of the United Kingdom. The hon. Member for West Lothian will, I hope, realise how matters stand and will accept our assurance that we shall view the problem sympathetically.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at nineteen minutes to One o'clock.

MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Trafalgar Square (Photographers and Corn Sellers)
  Trafalgar Square (Photographers and Corn Sellers)
  Watnall Hall, Nottingham
  Watnall Hall, Nottingham
SCOTLAND
  Medical and Pharmaceutical Service Committees
  Medical and Pharmaceutical Service Committees
  Local Government Finance (White Paper)
  Local Government Finance (White Paper)
  Roads, Isle of Harris
  Roads, Isle of Harris
  Dental Treatment, Isle of Lewis
  Dental Treatment, Isle of Lewis
  National Health Service Clerical Employees
  National Health Service Clerical Employees
  Housing, Cuirass
  Housing, Cuirass
  National Health Service (Multiple Packs)
  National Health Service (Multiple Packs)
  Rent Act
  Rent Act
  Legal Aid and Advice
  Legal Aid and Advice
  Aged People (Hospitals and Institutions)
  Aged People (Hospitals and Institutions)
  Education (Day-Release Courses)
  Education (Day-Release Courses)
  Secretary of State's Powers
  Secretary of State's Powers
  Primary Schools (Size of Classes)
  Primary Schools (Size of Classes)
  School Fees
  School Fees
  Employment, Easter Ross
  Employment, Easter Ross
  Agricultural Land (Security of Tenure)
  Agricultural Land (Security of Tenure)
  Streams and Rivers (Flood Damage)
  Streams and Rivers (Flood Damage)
  Fee-Paying Schools (Grants)
  Fee-Paying Schools (Grants)
  Whiteinch Tunnel (Sub-Contract)
  Whiteinch Tunnel (Sub-Contract)
  THE PRIME MINISTER (PRIVATE SECRETARY)
  THE PRIME MINISTER (PRIVATE SECRETARY)
  UNITED STATES SECRETARY FOR DEFENCE (VISIT)
  UNITED STATES SECRETARY FOR DEFENCE (VISIT)
  NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION (MEETING)
  NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION (MEETING)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Trade with Italy (Motor Cycles)
  Trade with Italy (Motor Cycles)
  Radnorshire and North Breconshire (Light Industries)
  Radnorshire and North Breconshire (Light Industries)
  Theatres and Cinemas
  Theatres and Cinemas
  Companies (Voteless Shares)
  Companies (Voteless Shares)
  Trade with Western Europe
  Trade with Western Europe
  Machinery (Import Licences)
  Machinery (Import Licences)
  Employment, Keadby
  Employment, Keadby
  Apples
  Apples
  Whisky (Exports to France)
  Whisky (Exports to France)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Purchase Tax
  Purchase Tax
  Council on Prices, Productivity and Incomes
  Council on Prices, Productivity and Incomes
  Trustee Stocks
  Trustee Stocks
  Housing Subsidies
  Housing Subsidies
  Cinemas (Entertainments Duty)
  Cinemas (Entertainments Duty)
  Post-war Credits
  Post-war Credits
  United States and Canadian Loans (Deferment of Instalments)
  United States and Canadian Loans (Deferment of Instalments)
  British Films (Overseas Earnings)
  British Films (Overseas Earnings)
  Consumers' Expenditure and Gross Domestic Product
  Consumers' Expenditure and Gross Domestic Product
  National Insurance (Employers' Contributions)
  National Insurance (Employers' Contributions)
HOUSING
  Accrington (Loan Charges)
  Accrington (Loan Charges)
  Elderly Persons, London and Middlesex (Accommodation)
  Elderly Persons, London and Middlesex (Accommodation)
  Rent Act (Notices to Quit)
  Rent Act (Notices to Quit)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Gaumont Cinema, Haymarket
  Gaumont Cinema, Haymarket
  Thrift Street, North Shields
  Thrift Street, North Shields
  Water Supply, Bingley (Fluoride)
  Water Supply, Bingley (Fluoride)
  Local Valuation Panels (Members' Expenses)
  Local Valuation Panels (Members' Expenses)
  New Towns (Cinemas)
  New Towns (Cinemas)
  St. Paul's Precincts
  St. Paul's Precincts
KENYA
  Council of State
  Council of State
UGANDA
  Indian Publication Forum
  Indian Publication Forum
  Proscribed Publications
  Proscribed Publications
  Bugisu Farmers (Coffee Crop)
  Bugisu Farmers (Coffee Crop)
BRITISH HONDURAS
  Situation
  Situation
NORTHERN RHODESIA
  Education
  Education
RHODESIA AND NYASALAND
  Land
  Land
COLONIAL TERRITORIES
  Defence Regulations
  Defence Regulations
  Development and Welfare Funds
  Development and Welfare Funds
SIERRA LEONE
  Lebanese Citizens
  Lebanese Citizens
  LEGAL AID (ASSESSMENT OF RESOURCES)
  LEGAL AID (ASSESSMENT OF RESOURCES)
HOSPITALS
  Mental Patients (Pocket Money)
  Mental Patients (Pocket Money)
  Welwyn and Hatfield Hospital
  Welwyn and Hatfield Hospital
  Mental Hospitals (Nurses)
  Mental Hospitals (Nurses)
  Alcoholic Drinks (Licensed Clubs)
  Alcoholic Drinks (Licensed Clubs)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  National Health Service (Administrative and Clerical Staff)
  National Health Service (Administrative and Clerical Staff)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Motoring Offences (West Cromwell Road)
  Motoring Offences (West Cromwell Road)
  Death Rate, North and South Shields
  Death Rate, North and South Shields
POST OFFICE
  Post Boxes, Brantford and Chiswick
  Post Boxes, Brantford and Chiswick
CIVIL AVIATION
  Signal Training Establishment
  Signal Training Establishment
TRANSPORT
  Nationalised Industries (Boards)
  Nationalised Industries (Boards)
  Park Lane Improvement Scheme
  Park Lane Improvement Scheme
BRITISH ARMY
  Posting (Error)
  Posting (Error)
  B.A.O.R. (Leave Warrants)
  B.A.O.R. (Leave Warrants)
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers

  MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN
  THE EARL OF SCARBROUGH: My Lords, I have the honour to present to your Lordships a Message from Her Majesty The Queen, signed by her own hand. The Message is as follows:
  "I have received your Address praying that the Government of India (Family Pension Funds) (Amendment) Order, 1957, be made in the form of the draft laid before your House on the 20th November.
  "I will comply with your request."

  NAVY'S UNIFORMED AND CIVILIAN PERSONNEL
  2.36 P.M.
  THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government if their attention has been called to various communications to the Press in which it is pointed out that, although the uniformed personnel of the Royal Navy has been greatly reduced since 1933 (a year in which this country possessed a powerful fleet in full Commission), the civilian personnel has been increased by approximately 100,000 individuals; and what is the reason for this disparity.]
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, the Navy's Vote "A", or total uniformed personnel, has not, in fact, been reduced since the year 1933; the current Vote "A" of 120,000 is about 30 per cent. higher than the corresponding figure in 1933. The numbers of civilians are influenced by very different factors. Most of them are employed on the design, production, storage and
  1200
  repair of the ships, weapons and equipment of the Fleet, and they have tended to increase over the last twenty-five years because equipment is more complicated and requires more men to handle it; the range of items held in store is much greater; and ships take longer to refit—sometimes three times as long. In addition, in the first place, work formerly carried out by uniformed personnel is now being done by civilians; secondly, improved welfare services and amenities require larger staff; and thirdly, the Admiralty are doing more work on repairment, mostly for foreign countries. The size can be seen by the amount of the Appropriations-in-Aid in Navy accounts.
  I would not, however, differ from the noble Earl that the efficient employment of personnel in a large Department requires constant vigilance. All shore establishments are accordingly brought from time to time under very close scrutiny, and as a result of current examination the number of civilians employed by the Admiralty has fallen by 10,000 in the last twelve months. These examinations continue. Their purpose is not, however, simply to reduce Service personnel; indeed, it is Her Majesty's Government's policy to employ civilians instead of Service personnel when this will enable better use to be made of Service personnel and so get more ships to sea. The overriding object is to ensure that all are usefully and efficiently employed so as to give the best value for money.
  EARL HOWE: My Lords, I take it that the noble Earl would agree with the thesis that it is important to have a contented Service? Does the noble Earl think that the Answer which he has just given will do much towards that end, having regard to the announcement made by the Admiralty the other day that 2,000 officers were going to be "put on the beach"? Equally, does he not think that the whole question of the size of the civilian staff in the Navy might be further examined?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I have said that the civilian personnel in the Navy is under very close scrutiny and will so continue. I agree with the noble Earl that the number of officers retired is larger than I should have hoped; but I think it is fair to say

  1201
  that the terms on which these premature retirements have been made are reasonably fair.
  LORD WINSTER: My Lords, may I ask the First Lord whether he is aware of the profoundly dispiriting effect these figures must have upon officers in the Navy? As the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has said, hundreds of them are now seeing the careers in which they have taken such pride brought to an abrupt end; yet the figures of civilian personnel remain at this very high level. Does not the First Lord know that that cannot be good for the morale of the remaining officers?
  LORD CHATFIELD: My Lords, before the noble Earl answers, may I add to that question by asking whether it is not a fact, as has been stated in the Press, that 90 per cent. of the officers who are taking their discharge have done so voluntarily?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I am sure we are all glad to see the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Chatfield, back with us again after his illness. He is perfectly correct in saying that 90 per cent. are volunteers on the terms offered for premature retirement. I will add only this to the noble Lord, Lord Winster. It is not really practicable to exchange officers for certain civilians: they are performing entirely different tasks, and I know, that many of the officers would not wish to do this particular civilian work. But, as I have pointed out, the number of civilians has fallen by about 10,000 in the current year, and I would say that that is certainly not the end of the story.
  LORD WINSTER: My Lords, might I ask the First Lord whether it is not the case that while that very large percentage of officers has retired voluntarily, it is for the reason that they see no particular prospects in their profession at the present moment? Surely that is again an illustration of the dispiriting effect which these reductions are having upon the officer personnel.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I should like to emphasise two points: first, that one of the results of the method of premature retirement will be that prospects will remain equally good for those who remain, and, secondly, I can, I hope, give an assurance that the numbers who have been prematurely retired
  1202
  are the end of the story and accordingly that those who remain have as equally good prospect as they had before—in fact, I think, a slightly better prospect.
  LORD CHATFIELD: My Lords, arising out of the noble Earl's first Answer, in which he referred to the increase in the amount of dockyard labour owing to the greater amount of repair work now taking place, and its difficulty, may I ask whether the same effort is made at sea for our ships to be kept up to date and repaired by their own personnel, a practice introduced by myself thirty years ago?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords I can assure the noble Lord that those schemes which he initiated thirty years ago are carried on to-day to a full extent
  THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for answering my Question and I am sure he will not take it amiss if I say that his. Answer was exactly what I expected. But the articles and letters to which I have called attention by my Question go far deeper than anything to which he has alluded, and they require an answer. Is it really necessary to have something like 180,000 civilian personnel to run a Navy which has a personnel of 140,000? The whole truth is that the number of civilians employed under the Admiralty is never subjected to Parliamentary control. Vote A gives on its first page the number of uniformed personnel, officers and men; but nowhere is the total of civilian personnel put down. In the article to which I have alluded the writer has taken the trouble to break down all the various Votes and—
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I think we must protect the House by putting questions only at this time and not 'making statements.
  THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: My Lords, if I am not to be allowed to answer in my own way, I must say that the number of civilians employed under the Admiralty is scandalous in relation to numbers of personnel in the Royal Navy.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I cannot accept what the noble Earl has said. I have told him that the matter is

  1203
  under constant observation. The noble Earl has compared uniformed personnel, the figure for which is given in Vote A of the Navy Estimates, with civilian personnel, who are not shown there; but the real control of civilian personnel is finance, and I believe that that is the right control. It would be perfectly simple to put a figure in the Navy Estimates for the number of civilians employed, and, in fact, that is frequently brought out by Parliamentary questioning. There is no secret about it and the noble Earl can debate it at length if he wishes. That is just as much under Parliamentary control as is Vote A, which is a historical matter going back to the time of Cromwell, when it was desired to limit the numbers of the armed forces. But there is no reason at all why Parliamentary control through finance should not be as effective—and I believe it is more effective—than simply stating in the Navy Estimates the number of civilian personnel.
  LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, in view of these rather startling figures, could the noble Earl give an assurance that the matter will be the subject of a special review? Secondly, could the noble Earl undertake that, wherever possible, officers who have been prematurely retired will be used in civilian service?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I have told the noble Earl that the matter is and will be kept constantly under review. It needs to be kept under constant review. Where possible retired officers will be taken into the Department.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, is the noble Earl the First Lord able to tell us what proportion of the reduction of 10,000 in the number of civilian employees is composed of industrial workers? I rather agree with him on the question of having a Service in which a large part of the building and repairs is done by its own personnel.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I think it is fair to say that the proportion is about 80 per cent. of the total.

  TRANSPORT OF CANADIAN TRADE DELEGATION
  2.45 p.m.
  LORD FORBES: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government if they are aware that, when the Canadian trade delegation was visiting this country, the delegation made a special journey by a British Railways (Western Region) train, which was drawn by an imported gas turbine electric locomotive of Swiss origin; and whether they think that this was in the best interests of the British locomotive manufacturing industry.]
  THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, during their tour of this country the Canadian Trade Mission made a number of journeys by special trains. On one occasion only—that to which the noble Lord refers in his Question—was an engine of other than British manufacture used to draw the train. On each journey the British Transport Commission's object has been to provide the most efficient and up to date rolling stock available. The Swiss gas turbine locomotive used for the journey between London and Cardiff is experimental and was the most modern locomotive of that type normally available in the Western Region of British Railways. With this one exception, all the journeys were made with rolling stock of British manufacture, and the delegation's programme included a journey in a special train drawn by the prototype British diesel-electric "Deltic" locomotive and another in a diesel railcar. A representative of the Locomotive and Allied Manufacturers' Association and several manufacturers of locomotives and railway rolling stock have met members of the delegation.
  LORD FORBES: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, and regretting that a British locomotive was not used on this occasion, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that at Dover Marine Station the dirt is really excessive? In view of this fact and of our poor showing on British locomotives, does the noble Lord not agree that we are not being very clever with the visitors coming to this country? And would the

  1205
  noble Lord try to persuade the British Transport Commission to use soap and water and not to go on waiting for modernisation?
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, the appearance of Dover Marine Station tends to vary in accordance with the type of Channel crossing one has experienced. British Railways are, I know, well aware of the need for keeping up appearances, and I will bring to their attention the points which the noble Lord has made.

  CLYDE LIGHTHOUSES ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Considered on Report (according to Order).

  LIFE PEERAGES BILL [H.L.]
  2.48 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  THE:EARL OF HOME: My Lords, it might be for the convenience of your Lordships if at this stage I were to say what are the views of Her Majesty's Government and myself on the scope of the Life Peerages Bill. May I remind the House of what my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack said in response to a question by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, during the Second Reading debate? Your Lordships may remember that the noble and learned Viscount quoted [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 206 (No. 15), col. 860] an extract from a Minute written in 1931 by Counsel to the Chairman of Committees, the essence of which was as follows:
  "The test usually applied in practice to the admissibility of an Amendment is whether or not it is relevant to the subject matter of the Bill, but the decision upon this point, and the action taken on that decision, can only be made by the House itself."
  My Lords, our advice is the same as that which the noble and learned Viscount offered—namely, that an Amendment which goes outside the subject of life peerages is not relevant and the moving of such an Amendment would not be in accordance with the practice of this House. We have, to the best of our ability, tried to apply that test to the Amendments on the Order Paper, and our advice to the House is that those that
  1206
  deal solely with hereditary peerages or the right of Peers to vote at Parliamentary elections, or the standing for or sitting as a Member of the House of Commons, could not be said to be relevant to the subject matter of this Bill. They have nothing to do with life peerages and the Bill is concerned with life peerages only.
  For these reasons, my Lords, when the time comes, I shall have to advise the House that the Amendments numbered 7, 8, 11, 12 and 13 in the Marshalled List are outside the scope of the Bill and ought not to be moved. I have already written to the noble Lords in whose names these Amendments stand explaining our views and the reasons for them. We do not in this House proceed by rigid practice administered by a Speaker, and so we have to make our rules as we go along; but it is very important, I think, in dealing with Bills that we should abide by the practice of the House. The Lord Chancellor and I have given our best attention to this matter, and that is our advice. If any noble Lord who has an Amendment down, either now or at a later stage when we come to the Amendment, would like further advice, my noble friend the Lord Chancellor would be very glad to give it. I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Home.)
  LORD REA: My Lords, I am sure that we all agree with the noble Earl, the Leader of the House, but there is one small point which I think we should be grateful if he could elucidate. When it is intended to change to some extent the scope of a Bill, it is, I believe, the practice to move an Amendment to the Title and to leave that to the end. In this case there seems to be an Amendment to the Title. Would that be out of order? Or, if it is taken at an early stage, would the Amendments to which the noble Earl has referred become in order?
  THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, if Lord Mansfield were to move and carry his first Amendment, then we would take the Amendment dealing with the Title at the end. If he were to lose the Amendment—I take it the Lord Chancellor would confirm this—an Amendment would be unnecessary.
  VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House when he sent out this information? Because I have not received it and have had no time to consider his views on it.
  THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, we met yesterday morning and the letters were sent out yesterday.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I would say, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Rea, that the opinion of Counsel to the Lord Chairman of Committees, which I noted on the last occasion, dealt with that point, and I might remind him that the passage ran as follows [OFFICIAL. REPORT, Vol. 206 (No. 15), col. 859]:
  "It is possible, and often occurs, for an Amendment to be relevant to the subject matter of the Bill and yet to be outside the Long Title. In such a case the Long Title is amended and it is for this reason that the consideration of the Title at the Committee stage is always postponed to the end."
  So that what might be termed a first-stage Amendment is merely outside the Title a second-stage Amendment is both outside the Title and irrelevant to the subject matter of the Bill.
  LORD REA: I apologise for not having remembered that.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly.
  [The LORD TERRINGTON in the Chair]
  Clause 1:
  Power to create life peerages carrying right to sit in the House of Lords
  1.—(1) Without prejudice to Her Majesty's powers as to the appointment of Lords of Appeal in Ordinary, Her Majesty shall have power by letters patent to confer on any person a peerage for life having the incidents specified in subsection (2) of this section.
  (2) A peerage conferred under this section shall, during the life of the person on whom it is conferred, entitle him—

  (a) to rank as a baron under such style as may be appointed by the letters patent; and

  (b) subject to subsection (4) of this section, to receive writs of summons to attend the House of Lords and sit and vote therein accordingly,

  and shall expire on his death.
  (3) A life peerage may be conferred under this section on a woman.
  (4) Nothing in this section shall enable any person to receive a writ of summons to attend the House of Lords, or to sit and vote in that House, at any time when disqualified therefor by law.
  2.55 p.m.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIE THE EARL OF AIRLIE moved, in subsection (1), after "any" to insert "male". The noble Earl said: You will notice that in my name there are two Amendments. Nos. 1 and 3, and for your Lordships' convenience, and with your permission, I will speak to the first, as they are consequential. In moving an Amendment in your Lordships' House, especially on a highly controversial subject such as this is, one must be careful not to make a Second Reading speech. I will therefore try to be as brief as I possibly can and merely reiterate and confirm the points which I tried to raise on Second Reading.
  To start with, I would ask your Lordships' permission to touch, very briefly, on the question of reform generally because it affects my Amendment. I said that I did not feel—and I still do not feel—that any reform will improve the work of your Lordships' House. Anyhow, you will probably get the wrong sort of Chamber. You will get another "another place", if I might use that term. That is just what is not required. Be that as it may, if we must move forward let us at least move slowly and take it step by step. With all due deference to the noble Earl the Leader of the House, I myself can see nothing sound in his argument that, because ladies have entered another place and other spheres of work, and perhaps succeeded, they must therefore necessarily be admitted here. Why, my Lords? I have yet to be convinced. Possibly the noble Earl the Leader of the House will be able to convince me afterwards.
  I have tried to emphasise that this is a quite unique Chamber, and unlike any other institution, as it is at present constituted. Though, of course, it is an anomaly, it has worked well in the past. Perhaps—I say "perhaps"—we have now come to the time when a change is necessary. Personally I am not at all sure of this, because I fear that our successor cannot be all that much better. I am also not sure that the country thinks that the time for a change has come. But there I may be wrong, and apparently Her Majesty's Government are quite sure. I submitted, however, that in view of this possible change it might be wiser to wait to see how the proposed step-by-step reforms worked

  1209
  out and then, if it were thought advisable, to admit the ladies.
  I have given a great deal of thought to this matter, and this seems only wisdom to me. Some of your Lordships may feel that the ladies have been a howling success in another place.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Howling!
  THE EARL OF AIRLIE: I am not, of course, qualified to judge, as I was never a Member of that august Assembly, though I hold my own personal view. Even if they have been, which may or may not be the case, does that justify their inclusion here in your Lordships' House before—I repeat, before—some of the prospective reforms have proved themselves? I submit, No. I have a very uncomfortable feeling that Her Majesty's Government have made up their minds that they must at all costs get general consent from all sections of your Lordships' House before proceeding with this measure but, above all, must get the support of noble Lords of the Opposition. Therefore, in my humble submission, as I said on Second Reading, that is really a piece of political expediency. I am afraid that I would go further and use a word which I do not like to use: I am going to call it political chicanery, and I challenge Her Majesty's Government to refute it. In other words, Her Majesty's Government, in order to obtain this measure, have sold the female pass to the noble Lords of the Opposition, who in turn, for political reasons, as an electioneering manœuvre, will not dare to support a measure for reform unless it includes the ladies.
  I believe that if they would truly search their consciences they would know in their hearts that it would be wiser, before including the female sex, to move step by step to see how the reforms work. The ladies can easily be included at a later date. We have always spoken and moved fearlessly and frankly, irrespective of Party, in your Lordships' House. In that has lain its great strength in matters such as these. But, in my humble opinion, Her Majesty's Government have not shown real political courage. It takes courage, I admit, to stand on an issue such as this, but this country likes to be led and not suckled and spoon-fed. I repeat, I do not say that it would never be right to bring
  1210
  in the ladies; but I do say—take one step at a time. For this reason, above all, I beg to move this Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 1, line 7, after ("any") insert ("male").—(The Earl of Airlie.)
  LORD CHATFIELD: As I did not have the opportunity of opposing this proposal—which is now embodied in an Amendment—in the Second Reading debate, I should like to say a few words now. I trust that I shall be called to order if I am exceeding what is right in what I am doing. I feel that in this matter of women Peers two questions are involved. First, there is a question of quality, and, secondly, a question of prejudice. With regard to the arguments which have been used against the Bill as it stands, in this respect, I feel that it is absurd in these days to exclude the representatives of half the population as unfit, by their very nature, to be in your Lordships' House. Nothing could be more harmful to your Lordships' House in the minds of our countrymen and our countrywomen as to be so petty in thought. so narrow-minded. The Government policy would, I suggest, make this House far more representative of the people of this country and the electorate, and would strengthen the respect in which this Second Chamber would be held.
  It can, of course, be argued that we all know that women may not make good debaters. They are, by nature, it may be said, more inclined to argue and to refuse to hear what the other person says than are men. They are also, perhaps, inclined to be sentimental rather than reasonable. I would not ask any lady if she would agree with me, but I feel that some might. But there is another side to the case. We are not to have ordinary women in your Lordships' House: they are to be specially elected. You may have ordinary women. as has been suggested, in another place—I do not say that it is so—but Life Peeresses are to be selected, and we may hope that they will be selected from ladies who have proven ability, have shown devotion to duty in their country, have shown a knowledge of humanity and of social problems.
  They will not, I hope, be selected for political reasons—of all the unworthy

  1211
  reasons that could be given. We cannot allow trivialities and petty prejudices to overwhelm our broad common sense in your Lordships' House. These ladies who are to be made Peeresses will be specialists, just as I am a specialist—a very bad example—and just as many other distinguished men in your Lordships' House who have been made Peers during my lifetime have been selected, because of their ability and in order to show the professions from which they have come and in which they have attained great success that those who have done great work for their country may be rewarded by a peerage. There are plenty of women who have done distinguished work for their country in almost every way one can think of—in the education of children, hospital work, the Women's Voluntary Services, the medical profession, the nursing profession. In fact, in nearly every great profession on which this country depends so much responsibility devolves to a large extent on the female sex. I feel that we must make this Chamber more completely in line with the best modern thought and practice. If we do that we shall gain the confidence of the country, and your Lordships' House will have a more certain and a better future.
  3.7 p.m.
  LORD SALTOUN: As I have another Amendment down on the same subject and am going to try to persuade my noble friend Lord Airlie to withdraw his Amendment and support mine instead, perhaps your Lordships will forgive me if I break into the debate so early, in my trivial and pettily prejudiced way, to show first why I think my noble friend should withdraw his Amendments and, secondly, why I hope to persuade some of your Lordships to support mine.
  I should like to start by saying that in my opinion this Bill is merely declaratory. In my opinion (and I am not putting it before your Lordships on my own authority: I know it to be the view of great constitutional lawyers), the Royal Prerogative is fully empowered to create Life Peers at the present time. The Royal Prerogative has from time immemorial created peerages with remainder to heirs general. This has been done for countless generations. Your Lordships will remember the poet Milton's description of the Phœnix as "A secular bird, Ages of
  1212
  lives." That precisely describes the peerage created with remainder to heirs general. It has always been within the power of the Crown to limit the remainder to heirs male and to make other and more peculiar limitations. How, therefore, can it be beyond the power of the Crown to create a Peerage with no remainder at all? It does not stand to reason. In my opinion, as I say, it has always been within the power of the Crown to create life peerages, and, in fact, the Crown has on many occasions created life peerages in my own country. I do not expect this point to have quite as much force with your Lordships as with me, because your Lordships will remember that the representation of the peerage of Scotland in your Lordships' House is by election. None the less, the fact remains that in Scotland the Crown has freely created life peerages when necessary.
  The only question, therefore, is whether Peers of such creations should have the right to receive a Writ of Summons and to sit in your Lordships' House. Only this week I heard one of the greatest authorities say that the Wensleydale judgment was very mistaken. It has always seemed to me that if we have done it wrong, then we should do it again and do it right. I think that nobody will challenge the intention of the Government to make Life Peers and introduce them into this House.
  If this Bill is merely declaratory, or principally declaratory, I feel that my noble friend's Amendment goes rather far—for this reason. From time immemorial it has been the Royal Prerogative to create Peeresses equally with Peers. If I sufficiently searched the records, I could give any number of examples, but two examples will at once leap to your Lordships' mind—the case, in the reign of Charles II, of the Duchess of Portsmouth and that, in the reign of Queen Victoria, of the Countess of Beaconsfield. For that reason, it seems to me that in this Bill we shall be proceeding on mistaken lines if we adopt the noble Earl's Amendment and limit the power of the Crown to the creation of male Peers only. That is why I have put down an Amendment suggesting that as the Royal Prerogative has never hitherto extended to giving a right to receive a Writ of Summons any such Peers created should not have the right to receive a Writ of Summons and to sit and

  1213
  vote in your Lordships' House. If my noble friend persists in his Amendment, I think that this matter is so important that I shall support him, but I would prefer my own Amendment.
  If your Lordships will bear with me. I will turn to the question of the introduction of ladies into your Lordships' House and proceed first by way of illustration. When I was a very young man I sat on a parish council, representing a parish which had a long seaboard Containing two fishing villages. The parish had this peculiarity, that since people first settled there, the fishing population and the landward population had never inter-married, or had done so so seldom that it was a nine days' wonder when it did occur. When the parish council met at one end of the parish and the landward people were there, business was done with expedition and accuracy; and if the council met on the seaboard side and the fishing population were there, business was again done with celerity but when they had a joint meeting, there was always trouble and the business took much longer. The reason, of course, was that the methods of thought of the two populations were quite different.
  I am the servant of a great institution, of which I am intensely proud, which is served all over the country by committees of ladies. Nobody has a greater admiration or a deeper gratitude than I have for the work done by these ladies and for their efficiency. This institution is also served by committees of men, who likewise do their work splendidly. We seldom have any difficulties in running the organisation, but when we do run into difficulties—and my own experience has been vouched for by many of my friends who are members of the ladies' committees—they are always at joint meetings, because the methods of thought of women and men are so different that they tend to promote dissension.
  I am not putting this before your Lordships purely from my own experience. My own experience is borne out by the work of the great psychologist, Le Bon, who spent his whole life in studying the behaviour of assemblies and whose work was a standard work on the Continent when I was a young man. The Government are in danger of spoiling the last public Assembly in Europe, perhaps in the world, where we can discuss
  1214
  without heat, or almost without heat, matters on which we differ profoundly and feel strongly. I believe that the experience of another place, if the records were carefully examined, would bear out what I say. I remember when, a long time ago, the first lady was elected to another place. She took her seat on a Thursday, I think, and that evening she went to the town of Hertford and made a speech, which was reported in the Press (I do not know whether accurately or not), in which she said that her experience of the House of Commons had shown her that there was no place in the world which so much needed a woman's influence. Obviously, she was jesting; but I think that a man would have chosen a different jest from his repertoire. But a new spirit had been introduced into another place—and I do not think that it was altogether a spirit of peace.
  I do not know how it comes that the noble Earl the Leader of the House and the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, who preceded him, have developed this passion for having woman looking over their shoulders while they are doing their work. The noble Earl, on Second Reading, and the noble Marquess, on many occasions have said that it is a matter of logic: that if we have ladies in another place, we must have them in this House There is no logic about it at all. Perhaps there is an analogy. but it is a bad analogy. We cannot make a logical process of it. Because we have boys and girls together at the hunt ball, that is no reason why we should have them together in, say, a maternity home. I think that the noble Lords have chosen the word "logic", not because they mean that it is logical, but because they are politicians; and as politicians, like Humpty Dumpty, they choose a word like "logic" because they find it a sounding and effective word, and not because it has any particular meaning. But, unlike Humpty Dumpty, they do not pay for the words they misuse on Saturday night.
  I would only point out to your Lordships where the logic does exist. If it is logical, as a new measure, to bring into your Lordships' House ladies who possess a peerage which has no remainder at all, then surely it is logical, and must follow, that we ought equally to bring into your Lordships' House Peeresses who

  1215
  have a peerage which is "a secular bird, ages of lives." For these reasons, I hope that my noble friend will withdraw his Amendment and support mine; but if he does not withdraw his, I will support it.
  THE EARL OF GLASGOW: I have said my say about women in a recent debate and I do not want to repeat myself, but I should like to comment on two points. I must be very unintelligent, as I do not understand why, because women are in another place, it is logical to admit them here—and I am sorry to get back to this question of logic once more. A lady who has been a good deal before the public eye is reported to have said that women in another place have been a "flop". If that is true—and I do not say it is—would it be logical to admit women here? I would guess that at this moment the consensus of public opinion would be that women in another place have not been a conspicuous success. If that is true—and it may not be—again, would it be logical to introduce into this House something which has not been a conspicuous success?
  Noble Lords who support the Government have said that it would be unjust not to admit women here. Unjust to whom? If it is women in general who are in their minds, I am convinced that there is a body of female opinion that does not want any extension of political power to women, nor do they want them admitted to your Lordships' House. But it may be that Her Majesty's Government are concerned with feminist opinion. Here I can almost agree, because the feminists of this country are formidable, as those of your Lordships who lived through the suffragette riots will remember. However, whatever may be the reasons for this pacification of women, I am sure your Lordships will never want any change in the natures or temperaments of women. Personally, I prefer the charm, the humour and the capability of the women I know to the earnest egotism of the feminist with her claim to be the equal of men and sit in this House. I like the touch of instability in those immortal words:
  Woman! in our hours of ease,
  Uncertain, coy, and hard to please."
  I realise that talking about the suitability of women for politics cuts very little ice with your Lordships. What you
  1216
  are turning over in your minds is the un-intellectual and so-called illogical aspects of the question whether you really want to meet the ladies in the Library and give up the one asset of your Lordships' House—namely, that for hundreds of years this has been a place for men alone. It is difficult not to appear ungallant to the ladies when speaking to an Amendment such as this. There is no one who does not admire the public-spirited work they do in peace, and one is almost humble when one remembers their gallantry in war. But this Amendment has nothing to to with women's achievements; it has to do with the feelings and desires of your Lordships, whom one can liken to the members of a men's club who have been suddenly presented with a demand for the admission of women as members on the same basis as men. This is about the only place left in the kingdom where men can meet without women. For heaven's sake let us keep it like that!
  In conclusion, I would say that your Lordships are, in my opinion, about to do irreparable damage to the future welfare of this House by casting away the hereditary principle by admitting Life Peers. But if your Lordships decide, as you have decided before, to turn down the admission of women, you will mitigate, to a small extent, the damage you propose to do, and you will show a last flash of that independence which you are about to lose. If the noble Earl, Lord Airlie, decides to divide the Committee, I will support him.
  3.24 p.m.
  LORD SHERWOOD: I should like to say a word or two on this Amendment. I think we are taking a very big step towards what may be a great move which will come in the future, because this is really the reform of your Lordships' House. It has been known and discussed by a great many people. The great Lord Rosebery brought in the first Bill; then there was the 1910 Bill: and since then it has been fully discussed by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, and the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury. So no one can say that the reform of this House has not been put forward, not only in this House, but to the country. There are certain needs of reform, and the greatest of all is that Life Peers must come; and I am in favour of that. It has been put forward with increasing strength that your

  1217
  Lordships' House is a place in which you ca admit people who would never have a chance of achieving admission to another place because they have studied and worked and have not been able to give their life to what is the whole basis of that other place, which is politics. I did not like it when the noble Lord, Lord Chatfield, put that as a low basis, because I think it is the highest there is. Therefore, I think that Life Peers are necessary.
  However, this question which the noble Earl, Lord Airlie, has raised—and I shall certainly vote for his Amendment if he takes it to a Division—of Peeresses coming into this House has never been put by Lord Samuel, Lord Salisbury, the late Lord Salisbury or Lord Rosebery, and it was not suggested in 1910. No one has ever discussed this question of putting Peeresses into this House. I agree that it has been raised on the question of Peeresses in their own right, which is largely, as the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, has said, due to the Scottish arrangement, which is peculiar to themselves. But this idea of bringing Peeresses into this House is a new and very big one. The noble Lord, Lord Chatfield, said they are going to be specialist creatures—that is a most extraordinary expression. I could not understand it. At one moment he said they were going to be elected and at another moment they were going to be selected.
  LORD CHATFIELD: Perhaps I may interrupt the noble Lord. I did not refer to politics in the sense that I did not believe in politics myself, because I know how important they are. What I said was that I hoped that women Peers would not be elected to your Lordships' House for political reasons, but for much higher reasons.
  LORD SHERWOOD: I cannot think of any higher reasons than political reasons; never have there been any higher reasons for rising to this House than political reasons. In the past people were prepared to risk their necks in order to become Members of your Lordships' House, and many of your Lordships' ancestors did lose their heads. Therefore, politics must play a very big part of any two Chambers you have, If we are to eliminate politics in the selection of these women, I think it would be absolutely wrong and against the whole foundations on which this country is built.
  1218
  But this is a real reform, and nothing to do with Life Peers. This is something which has never been put before the country and has never been put before your Lordships in any prior way. I still do not understand who these women are and why they are coming in; what value they will be; what the point of it is or where the demand is coming from. It is very like the demands we had in another place when they used to read out a Committee and then people would shout: "You must put a woman on the Committee." So somebody used to "busy round"—I, as a Whip, and a number of your Lordships who have been Whips—to try to find some woman whom one could put on the Committee. That feeling was so strongly expressed in another place that, if one was a Whip, one had to find a woman. It has never been expressed strongly by your Lordships Therefore, I myself will vote for the noble Earl's Amendment.
  3.30 p.m.
  VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I have envisaged many schemes of reform of your Lordships' House, but it was beyond my wildest dreams that we should find the fair sex amongst us. I cannot help feeling that the ladies are seeking admission under cover of the Trojan Horse of Life Peers. But why all this haste? Why not have a separate Bill for Life Peeresses? I have spoken to countless women from all walks of life, and they have shown singular lack of enthusiasm for members of their sex to join your Lordships' House. I cannot understand this haste. One would almost imagine that the women of London were marching on Whitehall like the women of Paris to Versailles over a century and a half ago. No one admires more than I do the intuitive wisdom, talents and beauty of women, but women are not legislators and never will be. You argue with a woman. I cannot anyway. Was it not Plato who said:
  "A good woman is always quiet, never talkative"?
  It is said that it is illogical not to have women in this House because you have them in another place. During the past fortnight I have listened to and read countless speeches on the reform of this House. One of the themes running through them is that this House must never be like another place. Yet by having women in this House we are being

  1219
  asked to copy another place. It is all very confusing. No doubt in the future this House may well become a salaried rest home for trade union bosses to retire in, but heaven forbid it should ever become a stamping ground for "bossy Janes"! However, if my worst fears become true, I can only hope that the philosopher who said that the last civilising act of man would be to civilise woman was thinking of their eventual admittance into your Lordships' House. I support the noble Earl's Amendment.
  3.35 p.m.
  LORD WINSTER: I have no strong personal feelings either way in this matter. My experience of women Members in another place was that while they did not in any way handicap the working of the House, yet they did not effect any striking improvement in the working of the House. While I felt that the average women Member was fully the equal of the average man, yet fewer were outstanding. I would say that, of the women who reached Cabinet rank, probably the majority of them got there more as a demonstration than out of respect for their outstanding abilities. I feel it is impossible to contest the fact that it has been decided in principle that in the public service women shall be admitted broadly on equal terms with men. In the only direction of the public service of which I have any experience—namely, the magistracy—I have always been impressed with the ability and value of women magistrates. They are shrewd judges of character and have unexpected powers of decision. For those reasons, I find myself in full agreement with the speech of the noble and gallant Admiral of the Fleet, Lord Chatfield, and I support him in opposing this Amendment.
  3.37 p.m.
  LORD GREENHILL: It had been my intention to wait until we reached subsection (3) before I expressed my point of view. But because the noble Earl, Lord Airlie, suggested that perhaps noble Lords on this side of the House were all toeing some particular line which they had been instructed to toe, I find it necessary to intervene to express a purely personal point of view. Like the noble Earl, I have no desire to repeat what little I said on the Second Reading, but I do feel to-day that there has been un-
  1220
  necessarily introduced into your Lordships' debate a note of levity that ought not to be there. I feel that this is a serious matter we are discussing, and that it ought to be treated seriously.
  When the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Chatfield, indicated that one of the views held of women is that they are prejudiced and argumentative, the obvious answer is that so are men. We are all prejudiced. We are all argumentative, otherwise we should not be participating in public life as we are doing. If I support the point of view expressed by the noble Earl, Lord Airlie, I do so for one or two reasons. Even on the assumption that the Government have a mandate of some sort for some measure of reform—which, by the way, I am not prepared to admit—it seems to me there has been no mandate for the kind of change which is contemplated in this particular clause. It seems to me that neither the people, the Press, nor women's organisations have indicated any strong wish for it. Those of us who remember the hysteria of pre-World War I days—as I do, for I was then a supporter of women's suffrage, and spoke on their behalf—will, I think, agree with me that that hysteria has now entirely evaporated, and people are not feeling the way they did in those days.
  There is, instead, if I am any judge of the atmosphere, a feeling of disillusionment, even among those who participated in those very heated days. It has been said that in these days, when sex equality is the widely held view of the public, one cannot very well resist the introduction of women into your Lordships' House. But surely that is merely the expression of a kind of doctrinaire point of view which many of us rather deplore. Equality is not a fact of nature. Equality, like freedom and brotherhood, is a political slogan—the kind of stuff one finds in presidential speeches. But the fact is that nature has made us unequal and that inequality has got to be accepted as a fact of nature.
  In the Second Reading debate I ventured to express the opinion that, while it is obviously true that women are intellectually and intelligently and physically as good as men, so that in discussing or considering questions which are wholly intellectual, or dependent wholly upon the intelligence of the individuals participating the conclusions at which they arrive are, on the whole, very similar to

  1221
  the conclusions that any group of men would arrive at, the real crux of the situation is that when, as in a Legislative Assembly, there is a feeling of heat, of passion, of prejudice, of anger, then my Lords, you have a different atmosphere altogether. You have then a combination of psychological factors which distort the logicality of one's reasoning.
  It has been said that women have shown their ability in other assemblies, assemblies in local government and in national government; and in so far as my own personal experience in local government is concerned, I would say that while, in exceptional cases, contributions have been made by women members of equal standards with those of men, on the whole, whether we regret it or delight in it, I think the fact remains that they have somehow not shown any characteristic contribution which may be said to be a woman's point of view: a point of view which, but for their presence, would never have been expressed. This Chamber has many faults. This is a Chamber full of anomalies, but, as has already been said by one noble Lord, it is a unique structure; and because of its very uniqueness I think we should hesitate long before we take any drastic measure to alter its composition.
  LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I feel that it would be a pity if no Back-Bencher on this side of the House spoke in favour of the Government's proposal. I have listened carefully to the speeches I have heard around me, and in my view they are more suitable for a general meeting to discuss a proposal to admit women to White's or Boodle's than to this House. What is the object of this Bill before us now? It is to produce more working Peers to do the chores (I think the word has been used) of this House. I do not think such men will be easy to find, but I do believe that it would be quite possible to find a number of suitable ladies to swell their numbers and who would perform very valuable services in revision of certain Bills and in the general work of this House. Therefore I wish to support the Government's proposal to admit ladies, and to oppose this Amendment.
  3.45 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ASTOR: I have, of course, a certain hereditary interest in this matter, because my father proposed the admission
  1222
  of women to this House in the early 1920s, at the time when my mother was the first woman Member to take her seat in the House of Commons, though not the first to be elected; she was only the second to be elected. We have heard of exactly the same arguments in the past, but they were not supported by what happened in the House of Commons. The idea that women were more emotional than men! I have heard more emotion from the Welsh Back-Benchers in the House of Commons, more emotion from the Clydeside Members, than we ever had from the women of either Party. It just was not so. The idea that those who got in took a less distinguished part than the men! Certainly, considering their comparatively small number, they held Cabinet and ministerial office with great distinction. The Duchess of Atholl, Miss Margaret Bondfield, Miss Wilkinson, Miss Horsbrugh; they were all members of Cabinets, members of whom either side of the House or the House as a whole could be proud.
  Take Back-Benchers. One noble Lord said that they never made a distinctive contribution. There was that remarkable Back-Bencher, Miss Eleanor Rathbone, who brought up the question of family allowances, which is a specific point to help women and children, and by dogged perseverance beat the Opposition of both sides of the House. And now family allowances are part of the law of the land, and a part which none of us could possibly want to go back on. Those who remember the opposition to it may well wonder whether, if there had not been that woman Member of the House of Commons, it would have come when it did. Think of Mrs. Wintringham, Lady Davidson, Dame Irene Ward, who have all shown that intelligence on the Back Benches which has made them absolutely useful Members, and who would have been ornaments to this House.
  It is really living in another world to hear some of the arguments we have heard to-clay. If we want to make ourselves ridiculous in the eyes of the country we can do so, but if we are going to commit suicide as a House let us take some major and noble issue on which to do it. Certainly the idea that women will be a vast radical force is completely wrong. Every public opinion poll shows, everybody who has ever canvassed knows,

  1223
  that by and large the women of this country are a more Conservative element than the men. They have probably put in a Conservative Government at every Election since women have had the vote. If we are going to antagonise that large element, we just make ourselves absurd in the eyes of this country. I believe that if we have women Members of this House of the same average quality as we have had in the House of Commons the debates of this House will be enriched.
  3.50 p.m.
  VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: There are perhaps two divisions of work in your Lordships' House. There is, first of all, the everyday work of which the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, has spoken, and I have no doubt that the ladies will be only too capable of helping on that side. That is one of the things for which we are going to elect men as Life Peers. in order to give a larger working body. On the other side are the expert discussions for which your Lordships' House is so famous and for that there are experiences of which the ladies have particular and perhaps unique knowledge. I would oppose any suggestion which would preclude them from bringing forward that special knowledge and so increasing the width of experience in your Lordships' House. As the rules are at the moment, no peeress in her own right can bring forward that point of view because she cannot come to this House to speak or to vote. It would therefore be a pity to miss this opportunity of including the ladies in this Bill and thus enriching the debates in your Lordships' House.
  LORD BIRDWOOD: I had no intention to intervene, but as I have been sitting listening to the arguments it seems to me that some of your Lordships have been trying to reconcile two quite irreconcilable elements in this issue. On the one hand, there has been produced the argument that this is a club, a sancrosanct place in which it would be a pity to have women rumpling the newspapers in the Library. On the other hand, it has been claimed that this House is an indispensable element in the British Constitution. You cannot have it both ways; as I see it, it is one or the other. If it is an indispensable part of the British Constitution, then it needs protection as such and it must then march with the times. If it is to march with the times it must, as I
  1224
  see it, recognise the ability of ladies to come here and give of their knowledge where they are fit to do so. I make a distinction between the elected lady who sits in another place and the selected lady who will come to this House and who will obviously be selected only for certain specific qualifications. For that reason I have no doubt in my mind that I would oppose the Amendment of Lord Airlie.
  3.53 p.m.
  LORD CONESFORD: I rise only in order to elucidate one matter. The noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, suggested that this Amendment might be withdrawn and the matter considered on a later Amendment of his own. I believe that that is not so, and I should very much like the advice of Her Majesty's Government on this point. As far as I can see, the word "person" in subsection (1) must, if we leave it unamended, include women. That is clear, I think, from Section 1 of the Interpretation Act, 1889, and possibly also Section 1 of the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act, 1919. If, therefore, women are clearly included in subsection (1) and we leave that unamended, then it will be useless for Lord Saltoun to move his Amendment or even carry it to subsection (3) because there will then be a complete contradiction between sub-sections (2) and (3) of the clause. This is a very important matter, whichever view one takes upon it, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, that the noble Earl who moved the Amendment should not withdraw it.
  LORD SALTOUN: May I interrupt the noble Lord for one moment? If his argument is correct, then what is the point of subsection (3) at all?
  LORD CONESFORD: That was the next question I was going to put to the Government. I should very much like to know the point of subsection (3). I think it is put in for what lawyers call in their rather curious Latin ex abundanti cautela, which means, roughly, to make assurance doubly sure. I think—I do not know—that the advice of the Government may be that even without subsection (3) women would be included under subsection (1).
  I do not want to repeat any of the arguments. Obviously, there is sincere feeling on both sides. I think, however, that those people are rather optimistic

  1225
  who assume that, if women are to be admitted as Life Peeresses, there will necessarily be extremely high qualifications for them. I suggest there are at least two other possibilities: one is that one of the main qualifications for being made a Life Peeress will be a demonstrated inability to enter another place, and the second possibility is that any Prime Minister, in selecting a list of seven or ten people to be made Life Peers, will consider himself almost bound to put in one or two women quite irrespective of ability.
  There was a time when it was quite common in another place to introduce provisions, when a Committee was being set up by Statute, that "the Committee shall consist of seven persons, of whom two at least shall be women "—the statutory woman, so to speak. My friend Alan Herbert and I, and one or two others, were successful in Committee in another place in giving the death blow to the "statutory woman" in one Bill. At a much earlier stage I remember I inquired in a letter to The Times what lay behind this demand for the statutory woman, and suggested, in order to find out, that three alternative Amendments might be put down. One was to add the words "and two at least shall be men"; and the ether was to leave out the words, and with the third I need not bother your Lordships.
  It may sound feeble, but I have not myself decided how I am going to vote in the Division on this Amendment. I can see, however, one quite important reason why some of us should hesitate to admit women as Life Peers, and that was the point so well put by my noble friend Lord Coleraine in an earlier debate. He pointed out how illogical it would be if you refused to admit Peeresses in their own right and then went on to admit women as Life Peers. That is not an argument unworthy of respect. I do not. believe that the majority of this House, whatever they do with this Bill, wish to do any injury to the hereditary principle. Are we quite sure that we shall not be doing some injury to that principle if we say that, notwithstanding that we can do nothing for the Peeresses who hold that position by hereditary rig-it, we insist on this right for the Life Peers? I know that my noble friend Lord Coleraine—I wish he were here this afternoon—felt most strongly on this
  1226
  point. There was a hope in some quarters that the matter might be put right in another way, but the Government—and I agree with the advice they have given—consider that out of order on this measure. But if that cannot be done in this measure, are we really being necessarily illogical or wrong in saying that until it is done we should continue to exclude women from life peerages?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It may be convenient if I clear up the legal point. I am not going to speak on the merits of the question at all. I will willingly give way to the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, but as my noble friend Lord Conesford has raised the point it might be advisable if I dealt with it briefly at the moment. If sub-section (3) were omitted, the effect of the Bill as it stands at present, without the Amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Airlie, would be uncertain, At the moment Clause 1 empowers the Crown to confer a life peerage on any person and then leads on to subsection (3). But the effect of a Bill in this form without subsection (3), as my noble friend Lord Conesford suggested, would fall to be determined in the light of the provisions of the Interpretation Act, 1889, and both the relevant provisions contain the words:
  "Unless the contrary appears."
  Under Section 18 of that Act the expression "person" includes any body of persons, corporate or uncorporate, and no doubt it will be readily agreed that a sufficient contrary intention on this part is shown by the subject matter of the Bill.
  Then, as my noble friend pointed out, one comes to Section 1 of the Act of 1889 which provides that:
  "Words importing the masculine gender include the feminine."
  But there again one has to consider whether in the context the contrary appears and that would fall to be decided according to the subject matter of the Bill. The question whether, if Life Peers were entitled to the Writ, Life Peeresses would be similarly entitled, has naturally never arisen. As to whether or not the contrary would appear, I can only tell your Lordships, after all the study I have given it, that this is a matter of complete uncertainty. Had your Lordships cared to read again the long speeches on the claim of Lady Rhondda

  1227
  you would have seen the difficulty that has arisen; and I would refer my noble friend Lord Conesford (for I know his industry) to the cases of Chorlton and Lanes, Nairn v. the University of St. Andrews—which was a gallant attempt to get votes for women as they were university graduates—the Law Society, and a number of other authorities referred to in this case.
  In these circumstances, the position as I see it is that without subsection (3) the matter would be left in doubt; and, of course, the alternative to subsection (3)—to clear up the doubt the other way—is the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Airlie. So that the advice I respectfully give to the Committee is that the noble Earl's Amendment is necessary, and, on the other hand, if the House take the other view, subsection (3) is necessary.
  I want to say a word on a point raised by my noble friend Lord Saltoun. I entirely agree with the view that Her Majesty has the right to confer a peerage and a life peerage on a woman; but, at the moment, in view of the decision in the Wensleydale case in your Lordships' House, that does not confer the right to sit and vote in this House. Under the provisions of the Bill, this is a peerage for life having the incidence specified in subsection (2) (b), which states:
  "subject to subsection (4) of this section, to receive writs of summons to attend the House of Lords and sit and vote therein accordingly,"
  I hope your Lordships will forgive my intervention, but I have made it because I thought it might at any rate make the matter more clear. The summary of my intervention is that this Amendment is essential in order to give an opportunity of passing on what my noble friend suggests; and, when we come to it, subsection (3) is essential for the reasons that I have given.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I am sure that the House is greatly indebted to the noble and learned Viscount who has just cleared this matter in our minds. I believe his words will be equally welcomed by the noble Lords, Lord Saltoun and Lord Conesford. I want to say only a brief word or two on the opening speech of the noble Earl, Lord Airlie, on this Amendment, in
  1228
  which he seemed to think that Her Majesty's Government had been stooping rather low in negotiating with the official Opposition in the House in order to "sell" them the principle of the appointment of Life Peers by throwing in a few women for good measure. I want to assure the noble Earl that that is entirely contrary—
  THE EARL OF AIRLIE: Might I interrupt the noble Viscount to say that I never suggested there were any negotiations? I said that Her Majesty's Government had "sold" the female pass. I did not say that they had negotiated about it.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Usually when there is a sale there is a purchase, and usually before something is purchased there is some talk on what one is buying. The comment could at least have been interpreted as meaning that the pass had been sold by the noble Earl the Leader of the House to the Opposition, on this question of the election of women Peers.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIE: Is that not true?
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Certainly not, and I am going on to say so. I have said that the noble Earl's statement was entirely contrary to the facts. At least, in this House I have tried to make my position plain, on behalf of my Party as a whole, on this Bill. We think it is a very small measure and is only tinkering with the much greater problem of reform of this House as a whole. With regard to the appointment of Life Peers, we have said that we do not think it is a very serious contribution to the difficulties which this House has to meet. But we have also said that if there are to be Life Peers there is no logical reason remaining why those Life Peers should not include women as well as men. On the well-established experience of the services given by women in assemblies of this nature I would say again, from my own experience, that women performing such duties in another place have fully justified the decision not merely of the Houses of Parliament but of the whole nation after the 1914–18 war in awarding full suffrage to women, giving them the right to vote. As they have to pay taxes, they were given the right to take their full responsibility as citizens,

  1229
  to have the same freedom as any other section of the community, and to have the vote and full representative powers on behalf of the rest of the community. So that we do not need in any way to pass away from that principle on this Bill.
  I share the views of one or two noble Lords who have spoken, but some of the speakers this afternoon have tended to treat this matter far too lightly, occasionally with a kind of phraseology which would have been better left out. If there has been a speech of real substance delivered on behalf of the Amendment of the noble Earl it seems to have been that made from these Benches by my noble friend Lord Greenhill. At least he had a considered view of the matter, and he spoke from an experience that we all respect. But in this matter he certainly does not represent the Party to which he and I both have the honour to belong. I would say to the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, that I do not think he has a very good knowledge as to how the women's vote goes, generally speaking, in the country—whether it is Conservative or Liberal or Labour. But I would say that perhaps his Party are somewhat more favoured at Election times. There are mere Labour women who are inhibited in being able to go and cast their vote, because they are not able to call on quite the same assistance in looking after their youngsters that some others have.
  VISCOUNT ASTOR: I would say that the Gallup Poll showed that, among the working classes, the percentage of Conservatives is slightly higher among the females than among the males.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I should not have thought a Gallup Poll was reliable for ascertaining that kind of position. Certainly that did not operate in 1945.
  In the other place we have had women, in die last quarter of a century who were justifying the whole principle from different points of view. Some were motherly and kindly, generally speaking, in women's cases. Others were as expert as any Member representing in the House the particular field for which they spoke. Anyone casting his mind back to the duel in the House of Commons, way back in the twenties, between Susan Lawrence and the Treasury and the Ministry of Local Government over a formula, to find out who was
  1230
  really able to express to the country at large, and to the experts in the other place, opinions on a matter of very great difficulty, would realise that Miss Lawrence was the most expert Member of that other place for that purpose. I could multiply that instance many times. I therefore say two things: first, that there is no truth whatever in the suggestion that I or my colleagues who vote against the noble Earl's Amendment, which he has a perfect right to move, have been "nobbled" in arty way. Not at all, We have not had the pass sold to us in any way at all. And the second thing is that, if we are to have Life Peers, I should welcome very much indeed the fact that women are to be included among the Life Peers appointed.
  4.15 p.m.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I was, unhappily, not able to be here when the noble Earl, Lord Airlie, spoke, but I have heard the arguments of many of his supporters, and I should like to say one last word on the other side. I cannot admit that their arguments are valid. As I understood the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, one of his main arguments was that the only reason in favour of admitting women to this House appeared to be that they were already in another place. With all deference to him, that is not the argument at all. The argument is that there is no position in this country at the present time to which women cannot attain, except membership of this House.
  LORD SALTOUN: Commander-in-Chief?
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The noble Lord turns to the ridiculous. He knows as well as I do that women do not serve in the Army. Some of the greatest of our Sovereigns in modern times have been women; some of our greatest scientists have been women: and some of our greatest writers have been women. On what grounds, therefore, do we take the attitude, which I think was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, that women are intellectually inferior to men?
  LORD GREENHILL: I did not say that. I said that intellectually, and from the point of view of intelligence, and even physically, they were the equal.

  1231
  The only distinction was between women discussing problems which arouse a good deal of feeling and women discussing problems which are purely intellectual problems.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I think there is no substance at all in that argument. On what ground could it be said that great women such as Florence Nightingale would be unable to take a purely intellectual view? And if it is true that women have not been an outstanding success in another place, that is perfectly true of a great many men, too. If we were to have a sort of intellectual qualification, a great many of us would be in a rather rocky position. The noble Earl, Lord Glasgow, was worried, in fact appalled, by the idea of women using the library and refreshment room—or smoking room, I think he said. I quite agree with the noble Lord, Lord Gifford. That is really the argument of a man who resents having women in his club. I think it is quite appropriate with regard to that particular problem, and I should strongly sympathise with the noble Earl, but this is quite a different thing. This House is not a club; it is a place of legislation, and for women as well as for men. On what grounds, therefore, do we, who form a legislative Chamber under the Constitution, exclude women from the consideration of measures which affect them just as much as they do us? That, I think, would be my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Conesford.
  When we come to the ancillary question of hereditary peerages, I expect I, like a good many other members of this House, would find myself more in sympathy with the views which I understand have been expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Coleraine, rather than with those of the Government. But I think the Government are right, and I beg them not to accept this Amendment. If we pass it here, we shall only make ourselves ridiculous.
  LORD REA: About the charge of the Government against inconsistency, I think your Lordships will remember that in 1948 there was a conference among the leaders of all Parties, and they came to a unanimous decision about the composition of the House, though not quite
  1232
  to such a decision about the powers. I think, therefore, we are divided for and against this Amendment, as were those who were for or against that decision.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: With all deference, I must point out, if only for the sake of accuracy, that they did not come to a unanimous conclusion.
  LORD REA: I rather thought the nine points recommended by the leaders were approved by them all. In any case, those nine points were largely accepted by large numbers of all three Parties, although a certain number of all three Parties did not commit themselves to accepting those recommendations. But I would remind your Lordships that probably the most important one is the one referring to the hereditary system. Two of the other nine points, were, first, that there should be Life Peers; and, secondly, that women should be equally eligible with men. And that is briefly, I think, the position on which we divide to-day.
  4.19 p.m.
  THE EARL OF HOME: The speeches of the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, and of my noble friends Lord Astor and Lord Colville of Culross, have, I think, relieved me of the necessity of making a lengthy reply to this debate. The two noble Earls, Lord Airlie and Lord Glasgow, have been persistent and they have pursued this question, quite properly, through the various stages of the Bill. The noble Earl, Lord Airlie, was candid, but I do not think he was very decided. He began by saying that he was against all reform; and then he qualified that by saying he was doubtful about almost every aspect of reform. He said that he was against women in principle, but then he qualified that by saying he was against women this time: put them off till the last, till the end—which, incidentally, is the noble Earl's family motto. But really, my Lords, the reasons for the inclusion of women to be Members of this House under this Bill are serious reasons.
  I think that the debates which have taken place, not only in the last four days when we had general discussion but over a number of years previously, have shown that the general sense of the House is in favour of the inclusion of women. The purpose of this Bill is to strengthen the House of Lords and to enable it to work better. As Lord Chatsfield has

  1233
  said, if that is the objective it is extremely foolish to exclude half of the population. Many of these women have a practical knowledge of everyday affairs which will be of great value to your Lordships' discussions. Women, as we know, have served the country, and do serve the country, in many ways. Your Lordships ha v:, mentioned county councils and the magistrates' bench. Women have also been members of the Privy Council and, of course, of the House of Commons. But as the noble Marquess has said, the Government's case does not stand alone on the fact that women have been for some time Members of the House of Commons and, therefore, should be Members of the House of Lords. Lord Saltoun said that that seemed to him to be a faulty analogy. Perhaps it may not be quite so faulty. I do not think it was as faulty as his analogy between landlubbers and fishwives in his parish council.
  LORD SALTOUN: I beg the noble Earl's pardon, but I never used terms of this kind about my own people, whom I respect and to whom I am deeply indebted.
  THE EARL OF HOME: So am but it does not stop one commenting on the analogy of landlubbers and fishwives.
  LORD SALTOUN: I repeat that I did not use those terms. I spoke of "landward folk" and the "fishing population."
  THE EARL OF HOME: I thank the noble Lord for that correction. Over a wide range of our national activities women are taking a very active and useful part, and it is surely time that they were in your Lordships' House. That really is the Government's case.
  I would only underline what the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition said, to the effect that there have really been no comings and goings between us on this question of the admission of women to this House. So, without wasting any more of your Lordships' time—I think you are ready to go to a Division if the noble Earl wishes to press his Amendment to a Division—I would say that the Government's line is quite plain. I hope that it will have the support of your Lordships, and that we shall decide to admit women to your Lordships' House.
  LORD SALTOUN: Will the noble Earl give the House a further assurance on this matter? If this Bill goes through in its present form, a great deal of room will be necessary for the accommodation of Members. Are he and the Government prepared to supply it?
  THE EARL OF HOME: Yes.
  4.24 p.m.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIE: I believe that, with your Lordships' permission, I am allowed to say one or two words at the end of this discussion. I have listened with a great deal of interest to everything. said by your Lordships, and I cannot honestly say that I feel the slightest bit repentant or convinced that my reason for setting down this Amendment was wrong. May I say, very shortly, in regard to the speech of the noble and gallant Admiral, that it left me with a bad taste in the mouth about the words which he used, "petty prejudice". That is a thing which I do not want to be charged with. I have no petty prejudice. All through my theme has been this—and let me say to the noble Earl, Lord Home, that I am quite decided. I have said: Let us see how the reforms go on and how they work, and then, if you think it right to put in the ladies, have them in. I have been quite strong on that point all the way through—at least, I hope I have. I am not going to withdraw my Amendment as I have been advised not to do so. I have listened to the Lord Chancellor, and my impression is that I should not withdraw it in favour of Lord Saltoun's Amendment.
  I think that what the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, said about Lord Greenhill's speech was very apt. Certainly it helped raise the debate to a very good standard. The noble Earl the Leader of the House has; said that I was not decided. I should like to say I was completely decided on the question. I do not think that the ladies will work into this House, but I probably shall not be here to see, so it will not affect me. I think that I have been perfectly honest all through. I said, "Wait until you have seen your reforms working before you decide to admit women ". It seems to me to be only common sense, but I may be wrong. I do not in the least apologise for putting down this Amendment. If I have helped to make your Lordships'

  1235
  House a laughing stock, I am sorry; that is the last thing that I should wish to do. I put down the Amendment for the purpose of getting this matter clear, so that the country may know how we feel about this question. For that reason, I propose
  to take any of your Lordships who may care to follow me into the Division Lobby.
  On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
  Their Lordships divided: Contents, 30; Not-Contents, 134.

  CONTENTS

  Cholmondeley, M.

  Wimborne, V.

  Grantchester, L.

  Hankey, L.

  Airlie, E. [Teller.]

  Amulree, L.

  Hatherton, L.

  Breadalbane and Holland, E.

  Annaly, L.

  Kinnaird, L.

  Cork and Orrery, E.

  Brocket, L.

  Milverton, L.

  Coventry, E.

  Bruntisfield, L.

  Monkswell, L.

  Glasgow, E. [Teller.]

  Colwyn, L.

  Newall, L.

  Howe, E.

  Denham, L.

  Saltoun, L.

  Digby, L.

  Sherwood, L.

  Long, V.

  Elton, L.

  Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

  Massereene and Ferrard, V.

  Forbes, L.

  Thurlow, L.

  NOT CONTENTS

  Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

  Esher, V.

  Howard of Glossop, L.

  FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

  Hurcomb, L.

  Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

  Gage, V.

  Jessel, L.

  Goschen, V.

  Keith of Avonholm, L.

  Sutherland, D.

  Harcourt, V.

  Lawson, L.

  Wellington, D.

  Hyndley, V.

  Layton, L.

  Margesson, V.

  Leconfield, L.

  Lansdowne, M.

  Mersey, V.

  Lucas of Chilworth, L.

  Reading, M.

  Monckton of Brenchley, V.

  McCorquodale of Newton, L.

  Salisbury, M.

  Samuel, V.

  McNair, L.

  Willingdon, M.

  Simonds, V.

  Mancroft, L.

  Soulbury, V.

  Mathers, L.

  Amherst, E.

  Stansgate, V.

  Merrivale, L.

  Attlee, E.

  Stonehaven, V.

  Mills, L.

  Beauchamp, E.

  Templewood, V.

  Milner of Leeds, L.

  Buckinghamshire, E.

  Moran, L.

  Carlisle, E.

  Addington, L.

  Morton of Henryton, L.

  Cranbrook, E.

  Ashbourne, L.

  Mottistone, L.

  De La Warr, E.

  Ashton of Hyde, L.

  Moyne, L.

  Dundee, E.

  Baden-Powell, L.

  Noel-Buxton, L.

  Fortescue. E. [Teller.]

  Barnby, L.

  Oaksey, L.

  Gosford, E.

  Birdwood, L.

  Ogmore, L.

  Grey, E.

  Brand, L.

  Pakenham, L.

  Home, E.

  Braye, L.

  Rathcavan, L.

  Huntingdon, E.

  Chatfield, L.

  Rathcreedan, L.

  Iveagh, E.

  Chesham, L.

  Rea, L.

  Limerick, E.

  Clitheroe, L.

  Remnant, L.

  Lonsdale, E.

  Congleton, L.

  Russell of Liverpool, L.

  Lucan, E.

  Craigmyle, L.

  Sandford, L.

  Mansfield, E.

  Cromwell, L.

  Sandys, L.

  Morley, E.

  Darwen, L.

  Saye and Sele, L.

  Onslow. E. [Teller.]

  Dormer, L.

  Shepherd, L.

  Perth, E.

  Dovercourt, L.

  Silkin, L.

  Poulett, E.

  Ellenborough, L.

  Somers, L.

  St. Aldwyn, E.

  Ennisdale, L.

  Strabolgi, L.

  Selkirk, E.

  Erskine, L.

  Strang, L.

  Swinton, E.

  Freyberg, L.

  Strathclyde, L.

  Waldegrave, E.

  Gifford, L.

  Stratheden and Campbell, L.

  Winterton, E.

  Gorell, L.

  Swaythling, L.

  Gridley, L.

  Teviot, L.

  Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

  Haden-Guest, L.

  Teynham, L.

  Astor, V.

  Hailey, L.

  Tollemache, L.

  Bledisloe, V.

  Hamilton of Dalzell, L.

  Williams, L.

  Bridgeman, V.

  Hampton, L.

  Winster, L.

  Bridport, V.

  Hardinge of Penshurst, L.

  Wise, L.

  Colville of Culross, V.

  Harvey of Tasburgh, L.

  Wolverton, L.

  Devonport, V.

  Hawke, L.

  Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

  4.30 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in subsection (1), after "life" to insert:
  ", if such person has signified his preference for such life peerage in lieu of a hereditary peerage."
  The noble Lord said: When your Lordships gave this Bill a Second Reading, you accepted the principle that in future the composition of the House should be a mixture of Life Peers and hereditary Peers. I am not concerned this afternoon in arguing the principle. The reason I have put down this Amendment is to find out from the Government what are their intentions and how they are going to work. I shall not ask your Lordships to divide on this Amendment, because I do not think that it covers properly all the points at issue, but when I have heard what the Government have to say, then at some future stage I may consider putting down another Amendment in the light of the Government reply.
  The reason I have put down the Amendment is this. If my fears are well-founded, and if the advice I have received is correct, I feel that the result of this Bill as it stands will be not a stronger House of Lords, but merely the creation of another, and inferior, class of Peers—a peerage second-class. If I am correct, I can imagine no worse foundation for building a future workable, harmonious structure in your Lordships' House. So I should like to ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House this first question: is the offer of a Peerage in the future to be unconditional? Is it within the prospective recipient's clear choice as to whether it is a life peerage or a hereditary peerage? So that there may be no mistake about what I mean, I will phrase my question in another way. Suppose the prospective recipient is offered a life peerage and he expresses a preference for an hereditary peerage, is it within his choice which he takes up? If not, and if my assumption is correct, then immediately a second class of peerage is instituted.
  It has been the custom—I do not say the invariable custom—for Secretaries of State or Ministers, when they come from the other place, to be elevated to your Lordships' House with the style and title of "Viscount". We have three who sit on the Opposition Front Bench: my noble Leader, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough,
  1238
  the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hall; and in addition, we have an ex-Prime Minister sitting on this Front Bench ennobled with the dignity and title of "Earl". If we could put the clock back, if this Bill had been in operation and those four Members, who have contributed considerably to your Lordships' House, had chosen life peerage, as I read this Bill they would not have been Earls or Viscounts; they would have been Barons. I want to ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House whether I am right in that assumption and whether he thinks that is the correct thing to do,
  The third question is this. In my experience of your Lordships' House, it has been the practice for Members of your Lordships' House to be elevated above their original rank for meritorous service: the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, has been elevated twice, the noble Earl, Lord Woolton, twice, and the noble Viscount, Lord Leathers, once; and on this side of the House there was the example of the late Lord Jowitt. Are we to say in future that if a man, through quite proper circumstances, comes to your Lordships' House as a Life Peer, meritorous though his service to your Lordships' House may be, he is debarred from any reward of merit of that description, unless in both cases the Minister who comes up from the other place, or the Life Peer, will undertake, or consent, if he is given the opportunity, to become an hereditary Peer? In other words, are the rewards of your Lordships' House to be confined in future to those who are given, or those who choose, an hereditary peerage; and are those who come here as Life Peers to be denied those rewards? I should like to have an answer to that question.
  When the noble Earl the Leader of the House moved the Second Reading of this Bill, he confined practically the whole of his remarks upon life peerages to their benefit to the Opposition. He left the impression on my mind—and I feel sure I was not the only one—that one of the main objects of the introduction of life peerages was to strengthen the Opposition. May I quote—if your Lordships will forgive me—precisely what the noble Earl said? [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 206 (No. 13), col. 610]:
  "There is, as all your Lordships know, a small number of noble Lords opposite who enable us to present to the world a picture

  1239
  of a House which is efficient and informed and which maintains a high level of debate. But, equally, we know that this is a brave facade and that on a small number of noble Lords opposite there is falling a strain which they cannot and should not be asked to carry much longer and that this House is perilously near a breakdown in its machinery. That situation can, in the opinion of the Government and I think of all your Lordships, be eased if the Prime Minister is given the discretion to offer life peerages to those persons who feel, for various good reasons, that they cannot accept hereditary peerages to-day.
  "In the selection and appointment of Life Peers, the emphasis will be on the appointment of persons who can help the working of Parliament."
  I hope I am not misinterpreting what the noble Earl said, but he then passed on to other aspects of the Bill.
  The noble Earl may be right. As circumstances are, I do not think that the creation of life peerages is going to help the position at all. But that is another aspect of the case. Suppose he is right, and suppose in future there is a majority of Life Peers, for excellent reasons into which I need not go, sitting on this side of the House. Your Lordships surely would not like those Members to came to your Lordships' House rather on the footing of poor relations who, through economic and other circumstances, could not sustain a Class 1 Peerage. Surely, there is only one way in which the future of your Lordships' House can be based, and perhaps I can best example it by quoting the words of that famous philosopher, W. S. Gilbert, who once wrote a parody of your Lordships' House in which he said:
  "And all shall equal be".
  Can your Lordships really envisage, and has it ever been envisaged, that there should be an atmosphere in your Lordships' House of "Gentlemen and Players"—"Professionals and Others"? Surely, if anybody serves your Lordships' House meritoriously he should be entitled to a reward, without having to give up his life barony and have an hereditary peerage conferred upon him.
  I feel strongly that this matter has never been explained to your Lordships' House. My worst fears are that my assumptions in this regard are correct. According to this Bill, so I am advised, once a Life Peer, always a Life Peer, and the only way that one can be elevated to higher rank is by giving up that life
  1240
  peerage and becoming an hereditary Peer. That is the simple reason why I have put this Amendment down. I thought it only proper to ask the Government if they would explain whether I am right or wrong, and what their intentions are. With those words, I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 1, line 8, after ("life") insert the said words.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
  LORD CLITHEROE: The noble Lord has made a point which I am sure we all well understand, but I do not myself quite like the way in which he has sought-by the words he has set down, to meet the point.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I thought I explained. If I had wanted to meet all those points I should have had to put down about six Amendments. I put down one Amendment for the convenience of your Lordships.
  LORD CLITHEROE: I thank the noble Lord. I wonder whether the point which has been made so well could not have been achieved much more simply. I appreciate that it might well be considered appropriate that some rank higher than that of a Baron should be conferred on a Life Peer. If the words, "as a baron" were omitted, it would leave the clause to read:
  "to rank under such style as may be appointed by letters patent."
  I should prefer to do it in that way, because in the way the noble Lord has set down his Amendment there is a suggestion of some sort of interference with the discretion of the Crown, which I do not like. I should not like to put it into words, although I can understand exactly what is meant. If the words "as a baron" were omitted, then I think the noble Lord's point would be made, and it would be an Amendment of which I should much approve.
  LORD WINSTER: If I understand this Amendment aright, it would undercut what I believe to be the main purpose of the Bill, which is to enable the Prime Minister of the day to strengthen this House by the creation of life peerages instead of hereditary peerages, to which some exception has been making itself felt. But this Amendment, surely, would impose upon the Prime Minister the necessity of saying to a man upon whom

  1241
  he had his eye, "You can have either an hereditary peerage or a life peerage, whichever you choose." It may be that many to whom that choice was offered would opt for an hereditary peerage. That would lead to the creation of more hereditary peers, which I do not believe to be the object of this Bill. As I understand it, this Bill in no way rules out the prerogative of the Prime Minister in recommending to the Sovereign the creation of an hereditary peerage. But that seems to me a very different thing from saying, in a Bill which aims at strengthening the House by the creation of Life Peers, that the Prime Minister must offer the option between a life peerage and an hereditary peerage. One effect of carrying this Amendment would undoubtedly be to add to the number of hereditary Peers, and I myself could never consent to any Amendment which had that effect. For that reason, I am opposed to the Amendment, and hope that it will not be carried.
  4.59 p.m.
  THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Perhaps the Lord Chancellor might help us by saying whether, before the Wensleydale decision, the Crown had the right to create other ranks of Life Peers besides Barons. I am not quite clear about that. I know that the Crown did have the power to create life Members of this House before the Wensleydale judgment, but I am not sure whether or not that included all ranks of the peerage.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will willingly help as far as I can. But I must "jump on" one phrase which my noble friend Lord Dundee used; and that was his use of the words "of this House." The Wensleydale decision was that the Crown could create life peerages, but that it could not create life peerages which gave a right to sit and vote in this House. The position is that the Wensleydale decision does not throw any doubt on the Prerogative of the Crown to create life peerages, and the life peerages may be of any rank. But the life peerages conferred since the Wensleydale decision do not confer a right to sit and vote. In fact, I do not think that, since the Wensleydale decision, any life peerage has been made at all, except the statutory life peerages for Lords of Appeal in Ordinary. who are the Law Lords. But the right of the Crown, in my view, as I said in
  1242
  answer to something said by my noble friend Lord Saltoun, remains unimpaired.
  It would be a matter of policy whether any Prime Minister would ever choose to recommend to the Sovereign to make Life Peers of a higher rank than Baron; but in order to sit and vote in the House they would have to be made Barons under this Bill. Whether promotion would take place would be a matter of policy, and something on which no one would ever like to commit a Prime Minister of the future. But, as a matter of law, it would not be impossible to do it, in my view—and I think it is consistent with all the authorities—under the Prerogative of the Crown. That is the legal position. I do not know if I have made it clear to my noble friend Lord Dundee. If there is any other point I shall be glad to answer it.
  THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The Bill was supposed merely to nullify the effects of the Wensleydale decision, but were there any cases of Barons before that who could sit in the House as Life Peers?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That is the great argument. The majority in the Wensleydale case said that there were no examples of Life Peers who had sat in your Lordships' House. The minority said that that was at any rate a doubtful proposition. There were a large number of life peerages from the Middle Ages to the eighteenth century which were conferred both on men and women, but what the majority in the Wensleydale case said was that there was no evidence that the recipients of those life peerages had ever sat in your Lordships' House; and they decided that the Crown had not the right to confer a life peerage which gave the power to sit and vote in your Lordships' House. I certainly take the view, from my study of the matter, that the right of the Crown to create a life peerage of any degree remains untouched by the Wensleydale decision and still exists.
  LORD LATHAM: Could the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor help me on this point? Is it or is it not the case that in the creation of hereditary Peers, of whatever rank, the Peer must first be made a Baron?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No, it is not necessary. I always hesitate to take an example, but I think that the

  1243
  second title of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, is a Viscountcy; and there are many other examples.
  LORD CLITHEROE: I wondered whether any answer would be given to the suggestion I made, that by leaving out the three words "as a baron" all these difficulties are resolved at once.
  THE EARL OF HOME: We shall have to think about that a little further. Perhaps I could give a general answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth. He recognises, of course, that we could not accept the wording of his Amendment, which would prevent the Prime Minister of the day from recommending that a life peerage be conferred on anyone who had not expressed preference for it over an hereditary peerage. I am rather tempted to accept the Amendment in a way, because it would mean that a Socialist Prime Minister would always have to give an hereditary peerage to anybody he was considering. But it would be an undesirable rigidity and we think that it should remain within the discretion of the Prime Minister whether he recommends a life peerage or an hereditary peerage. He will, of course, take into account the circumstances of each individual and the situation in the House at the time. He can therefore decide whether a life peerage or an hereditary peerage is the more appropriate in the individual case.
  I think the noble Lord. Lord Lucas of Chilworth, was afraid that Life Peers might become of secondary importance to hereditary Peers. I do not know whether he is aware of the fact, but the same fear was expressed in the days of 1856. At that time Lord Grey said almost exactly the same as the noble Lord has said now. He said:
  "We are told that Peers, sitting for life, would be inferior to those who sit under hereditary title … I think that is entirely un-founded … When Lord Wensleydale takes his seat … will any man pretend that his authority … would be in the slightest degree diminished by the fact that his patent does not contain the usual words continuing his dignity to his descendants? "
  In modern times we all, I suppose, know many distinguished people outside the House whom we could bring in; and nobody would look upon them as being inferior to anybody who holds an hereditary peerage. So I do not think the
  1244
  noble Lord need have this fear. As to his question, would the recipient be given a choice, the answer is, of course, that the Prime Minister of the day would discuss every aspect with the recipient when he was considering the peerage; but discretion would remain with the Prime Minister.
  On the other point, I think the noble Lord has been answered by my noble and learned friend, the Lord Chancellor. If I understood him aright (he will correct me if I am wrong) he takes the view that it would be within the power of the Crown anyhow to elevate a Life Peer to a higher rank, provided that he was already a Life Baron and could sit as a Life Baron in this House.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Do I understand from the noble Earl the Leader of the House that the Government have decided against the conferment of future hereditary peerages?
  THE EARL OF HOME: Certainly not. I do not think that was part of any plan, either the plan of the noble Marquess or the Government's plan. Of course, discretion will be with the Prime Minister. I hope I did not give that impression. Did any words I used give that impression?
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: No, but it has a bearing on another aspect of this problem.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am grateful to the noble Earl for what he has said. Would he take into consideration every point that has been raised and see whether something could be included in this Bill to make clear the question of future preferment on merit? I expect I am at fault in not being able clearly to understand, but neither the Lord Chancellor nor the noble Earl, Lord Home, made it clear whether any future Ministers or Secretaries of State can come to your Lordships' House under the same entitlement in the future as in the past. Would the noble and learned Viscount answer that point?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There is no rule, in the sense of something binding on anyone. It is only a convention that has been followed; and the convention is dependent on the fact that, up to the present, hereditary peerages

  1245
  have been the only type of peerage that could be conferred. I think it is very difficult for anyone to indicate what future Prime Ministers will do. I would rather the noble Lord did not press me on what I think might happen, because it might be taken that I was committing my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, which, of course, I cannot do. I have told hint, to the best of my knowledge, of the powers open, and I have given what I believe to be an accurate account. I think that one cannot go further in committing the present or a future Prime Minister, and I should be grateful if the noble Lord would not press me on that point; it is a most delicate one.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I think the noble and learned Viscount really appreciates my fear, and I think the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, just gave tongue to it. It may well be that hereditary Peers will always be appointed by the Prime Minister of one Party and that Life Peers will always be appointed by the Prime Minister of another Party. Although humour has been rather taboo in your Lordships' House this afternoon, I remember the delightful speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, upon the Motion of Lord Swinton, when he said that any Peer who applied for leave of absence would be immediately dubbed as a "ticket of leave" man; and it flashed through my mind that I should not like all noble Lords sitting on this side of the House to be known as "lifers." I have felt, ever since I have been here, that one of the great joys of your Lordships' House is that there has been an entire absence of any class distinction. That, I think, has made this House work. Whether there were a substantial number of Life Peers in this House or not would make no difference to the feeling of your Lordships in any part of the House, but I should not like it thought in the country that there were two classes.
  I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken. I should perhaps make it clear that I am personally responsible for this Amendment, and in anything that I have said I am expressing only my own views and giving tongue to my own fears. I hope that, perhaps before the passage of this Bill is completed, the Government will be able to give some consideration to the suggestions that were made by noble Lords from below the gangway
  1246
  on the Government side of the House. With the permission of the Committee, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIE: Did I take up the noble Earl the Leader of the House wrongly? I understood him to indicate that there were to be no more hereditary peerages at all.
  SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIE: I am sorry.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  5.13 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved in subsection. (2) to insert the following paragraph:
  "and
  (c) to receive such emoluments as shall from time to time be determined."
  The noble Lord said: Here, again, perhaps some of your Lordships may quarrel with the wording of this Amendment, but again the only reason why I have put it down is to attempt to make a practical suggestion that would get your Lordships out of the dilemma as to how it may be made possible for those Life Peers who are not blest with an economic competence to spend the major part of their time here. Ever since this subject of the reform of your Lordships' House has been discussed I have never wavered in my conviction that it matters not whether you have hereditary Peers or Life Peers; the fundamental of the success of your Lordships' House is whether you can attract the right people to come here. And the right people will have to be compensated for coming here; in other words, the problem is one of economics.
  I have given considerable thought to this matter because on the Motion of the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, I rather humorously stated, although I was serious in intent, that the higher the emolument the less likely will leave of absence be asked for. I have looked at every other suggestion that has been made. As a taxpayer, I should be against paying large sums of money to satisfy the whim of nearly 800 Peers who may wish to attend. Therefore I have come down on the side of trying to work out how many labourers—if I may use an expression used by the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury—are required.
  One of our troubles and difficulties is that politics should never be a whole time job for anybody. The only reason it has been a whole time job for a few of us on this side of the House is because of our sparsity of numbers. Unfortunately, even if the number of those who could give more time could be increased, the difficulty of the job is that it is not so big as to warrant the title of a full-time occupation, abut it is too heavy a responsibility for casual attendance. How are we to draw the line between the two? Frankly, I think that the present basis of three guineas per day expenses is quite enough to pay to the "backwoodsman" who comes along in regard to a certain subject once or twice a year. But as a member of the Opposition Front Bench, and as one who has been very heavily engaged on some of the major Bills that have gone through your Lordships' House, my practical experience is that my travelling from the country to London is heavier when the House is not sitting than it is when the House is sitting, because of the conferences and the meetings that one has to attend, and the devilling that one has to do—it cannot be done on the Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday when the House is sitting.
  I said in an earlier debate that we want "the rate for the job," and my noble friend Lord Stansgate said, "You have not told us what the job is." I am now telling him; that is the job. It was a busy time in your Lordships' House when such Bills as the Copyright Bill, the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill and the Road Traffic Bill were, practically simultaneously, going through the House. Some of us had to give nearly six days a week to the job on that occasion. We are not all blessed with town houses and we have to travel, as one might say, outside the ordinary emolument compass or bracket of three days a week.
  With that explanation, I am going to put forward my suggestion. I do not want to be committed to numbers, but I am going to make a suggestion with regard to numbers. I think that we on this side of the House want twenty Peers, selected by the Leader of the Opposition at the beginning of every Session, upon whom he can count for daily service on subjects which he would allocate. That does not mean that that twenty have to
  1248
  be here every day, but that when there is a subject which is within their field they have to spend their time on it—doing the devilling, composing and presenting the Committee stage Amendments, and dealing with all the paraphernalia which we have called, colloquially, "the chores". It may be that Her Majesty's Government do not want quite as many, because they have their Front Bench; but the numbers could be agreed between the Leaders; and doubtless the Liberal Party would want a number.
  That would entail payment. What is the rate for the job? Some of us may think that the rate for the job has been settled by another place—whether too much or too little I am not going to venture an opinion, though personally I should think it too little—at £1,500 a year or something less. I do not think £1,500 a year is a great deal, but it has been decided that that is about the rate for a political job: it may be a little more or a little less, and travelling expenses may be included. But by that means we should have a nucleus of daily attenders to take over the drudgery and the donkeywork of Committee stages, the scrutiny of Orders and other duties.
  There is the advantage that the Treasury would know their precise commitment. The Treasury would never agree to pay a large sum of money per capita on everyone who could come to your Lordships' House. I believe that that is as near as we shall ever get to a workable arrangement. Your Lordships may criticise it, saying that it will result in patronage, either from the Leader of the House on his side or from the Leader of the Opposition; but while people are going to be selected to come to your Lordships' House, there will always be an element of patronage. I believe that if this were done every Session we could trust the Leader of the House and the Leaders of the Opposition and of the Liberal Party to work out a feasible scheme on those lines.
  There is no necessity for that scheme to be contained in any Bill; in fact, I feel that in any case a Bill would be the wrong place for it. I put this suggestion forward as my own idea, so that it can be condemned by anyone who cares; but, having had twelve years' experience, I know that we have to do something. We cannot go on hedging on this question,

  1249
  and this will give the Bill a chance of working, if it stands any chance of doing so. Because whether we have Life Peers or hereditary Peers, the economics are the same for both—and very likely they will be more stern and more strict for Life Peers than for hereditary Peers. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 1, line 16, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Before the noble Earl the Leader of the House replies to the speech of my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth, I think it is only right to say that this Amendment is submitted entirely on his own volition and that the arguments which he has used in no way represent the general and considered views of the Party which I have the honour to lead in your Lordships' House. It has certainly led him into pretty deep waters to-day and into arguing on the kind of thing that might happen and the basis which might be made, and other things of that kind, which certainly have not been discussed in any detail by members of the Party that sit on these Benches. I am therefore quite unable to accept the submission of those views in their present form.
  It is true that there are solid reasons for improving the efficiency of your Lordships' House in general by leading on to the position where the Peers who do the work (whether they be hereditary or Life Peers) should be able to avoid embarrassment through lack of means in doing the job that they have chosen to do. That is a principle by which we can all abide. But as this Bill is drawn and as the Title goes, it seems to me to be an unnecessary Amendment at this stage. Perhaps my noble friend may say, "It is a ' fishing' Amendment. I wanted to get information"; but certainly I, on behalf of my Party, cannot take any responsibility for it. I believe that it is unnecessary and I certainly do not want to start this House towards a position in which, not in a general debate on a principle on which a resolution of opinion can be carried, but on an actual piece of legislation laid before your Lordships, you should seek to pin down a financial principle in a Bill for transmission to another place. Once this is accepted in principle
  1250
  it certainly has to be legislated upon by another place alone, and the initiation of this legislation should come from them, and not from us. I am therefore quite unable, at the present moment, to agree with my noble friend on this matter.
  LORD SOM̃ERS: I hope that I shall not be accused of self-interest if I speak in defence of those who find financial difficulty. I am sure that I speak, not only for myself but also for many others. I think, in particular, that it is highly likely I am speaking in defence of a great many Members of your Lordships' House who are so heartily condemned for their non-attendance. There are a great many difficulties connected with this problem. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, spoke of the "backwoodsman" who comes up for a solitary attendance, but your Lordships will remember that although that Peer gets his three guineas expenses, he does not get his railway fare unless he attends for not less than 33 ⅓ per cent. of the Sittings of the House. Naturally that makes his railway fare a considerable item if he lives a long way away.
  There are other factors to be considered. A Peer may be occupied in some work which he has to get permission to leave; or he may be a man who does a great deal of his own work, and if he leaves it in order to attend this House he has to employ somebody else to do it for him, which involves expense. I feel, therefore, that if we are to expect people to put in their full attendance here when they are not financially qualified to do so, the words moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, are very appropriate. We do not, of course, want a set salary (if one may call it that) which will be exactly equal for those who attend and those who do not. I have always been, and remain, against the principle of paying people for something that they do not do; but I believe that position could quite easily be met by making an agreed payment for each day on which a Peer attended. The exact figure could be arrived at by discussion between those who know a great deal more about the subject than I do. I believe that this question of making things easier for those who find the position financially very difficult but who are none the less anxious to take their part in the activities of the House should be very seriously

  1251
  considered before we reject this Amendment.
  LORD GORELL: Before the noble Earl the Leader of the House replies, may the Committee be quite clear on one point? It seems to me that in the speeches which have been made on this Amendment there has been a general discussion as to the emoluments of Members of this House. But surely the Amendment is by its wording restricted entirely to Life Peers. So far as I can understand the Amendment—I hope I may be told—if it were to be passed, only new creations under this clause—that is, Life Peers—would receive such emoluments. The general question of emoluments for Members of your Lordships' House as a whole is left entirely untouched.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I thought I had made the position clear—my powers of exposition must be weakening. This was put down only to enable me to make the suggestion I did make. I thought I said at the outset that I was not going to press the Amendment. But I thought it was time that somebody made a practical suggestion, because we have been waltzing around this subject now for two or three years; and I was perfectly well aware that once emoluments were given to Life Peers they would have to be given to all. The Amendment was the peg upon which to hang my remarks. When the Leader of the House has replied, I shall withdraw it.
  LORD KILLEARN: Might I intervene for one second? It seemed to me that there was one particular point on this Amendment which might arise, though I hope it does not. It is that there should be no question of a means test. I suggest that we do not want to have a means test in this House. I rose simply to make that point.
  THE EARL OF HOME: The noble Lord, Lord Gorell, is quite right. If the Amendment were accepted, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, admits, Life Peers would be eligible for remuneration and hereditary Peers would not; and that would be inconsistent with his previous Amendment, upon which I recollect he said that he did not want to divide us into "gentlemen" and "players." But he has used this Amendment as a peg on which to hang a short contribution on the question of pay. I do not know that I
  1252
  can do any more to-day than state, quite briefly, some of the problems. The Lord Chancellor said in the previous debate that the Government certainly did not shut any doors, nor did we shut our eyes to this problem; and it is, of course, a problem which faces us all. Our aim (and I do not think there is any difference of opinion on this) is to provide the means which will enable a Peer to fulfil his duty to the House, without at the same time turning this House into a Chamber of salaried professional politicians. The question is: how are we to do it? What are the means of doing this?
  Recently we decided to adopt a scheme whereby anyone who attends a day's Sitting can claim up to a maximum of three guineas a day towards his expenses. I would just remind your Lordships that this is the first time that anything of this kind has been done. It has been done by this Government. I do not want to claim undue credit, but at least it is a move in the right direction, and I should like time to see what effect the scheme has on this House and on the attendance. And, as I think my noble friend Lord Hailsham was a little misunderstood the other day, I think it would probably be wise to say this: having just passed the three guineas arrangement, we do not want, in the present situation in the country, to see your Lordships clamouring for a rise after a few months, and then for another rise after a further few months. If we are to find a scheme it is better to find one and get it settled. A considerable number of schemes have been put up. The scheme which would tie pay to attendance is one possibility. Then there is the scheme which the noble Lord has just canvassed, whereby, I take it, there would be a combination of daily expenses for those who attended and salaries for a certain number: a scheme, as Lord Killearn says, which should contain no features of a means test. That is going to tax the ingenuity of people a great deal.
  The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, spoke about the other place; and, of course, the other place does set a kind of measure and yardstick for us. In the other place, remuneration is in total, as I understand it, £1,750 a year, £1,000 of which is looked upon as salary and £750 as expenses related to the constituency of the Member concerned. Now we in your Lordships' House have not got constituencies; therefore, the maximum salary

  1253
  we should claim, if that is to be the yardstick, is about £1,000 a year. Which is the better, an expense allowance within the region of three guineas, which would be untaxed, or £1,000 a year which would be taxed? That is the sort of question we have to consider. We have to consider whether a salary of £1,000 a year as a maximum would do anything to attract Members to your Lordships' House. I can name only some of the considerations that we shall have to consider altogether, and I suggest these things would be better considered altogether in private, when we can try to work out a scheme which would suit us all. I cannot hold out any hopes that in the immediate or near future we could arrive at such a scheme, but we are perfectly willing to consider all aspects of this question, because it is a problem which the whole House will have to face.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I am grateful to the noble Earl for what he has said. My Amendment has served its purpose. All I put it down for was to try to make some practical contribution, because we have been talking about this subject for such a long time, and the Committee stage of a Bill is for the consideration of all possible means of making it work. This is my small contribution to something which I think will be to a large degree workable. I ask permission to withdraw the Amendment.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Before the noble Lord withdraws it, may I ask the Leader of the House whether he would consider this suggestion? The House is to appoint a new Select Committee to carry on with the work of what is usually called the Swinton Committee with regard to the attendance of Members. Would it be possible to draw the terms of reference of that Committee, those terms not having been yet decided upon, so as to enable them, if they so desire, to consider also this question of salaries, which is very closely associated with the whole question of the attendance of members? I was glad to hear the noble Earl the Leader of the House say that this question of salaries or expenses has to be considered as a subject in itself, separately, carefully and in detail. Possibly that could be done by a Select Committee and, if it were to be done by a
  1254
  Select Committee, might it save time and trouble if this duty also were to be committed to the second "Swinton Committee"?
  THE EARL OF HOME: I did, in fact, indicate that I wanted time to find out how the arrangement of paying three guineas a day worked; and I indicated also that I did not think It would be proper and seemly, in the present situation in the country, to hustle along with another instalment of "more pay for Peers". Therefore, I am not inclined (although, of course, I will consider anything put forward by the noble Viscount) to give this work to the Swinton Committee to do—I should prefer to have conversations. I must tell the House that I do not foresee in the near future any prospect of adopting a plan, but I should like to have conversations to see what is possible, and then perhaps we could consider again the next stage.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I am very much obliged for what the noble Earl the Leader of the House has said. I quite understand the reason for which he made his suggestion, and there seems to be an affinity between the ideas. But some of us have very little sympathy with the kind of work the Swinton Committee will now be doing, or with its purpose and object; and we should much prefer now to pursue the line just mentioned by the Leader of the House and see what comes of it.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIEhad given notice of an Amendment to leave out subsection (3). The noble Earl said: I do not propose to move this Amendment, but I should just like to say this. I am still quite unrepentant: you are getting, I am afraid, a worse second Chamber. But if I have been instrumental at all in forcing a decisive action before your Lordships, I am glad to have provided the peg on which to hang the hat, so that the action of the House of Lords has been clarified completely to the country. That is what we really want, and that is why we move these Amendments and have these discussions in your Lordships' House.
  THE EARL OF HOME: We are grateful to the noble Earl for his persistence, for being consistent in putting forward the case which he did put forward and

  1255
  for presenting it in such a persuasive, although unsuccessful, way.
  On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?
  5.40 p.m.
  THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: I think it will be for the convenience of the Committee and will possibly save a certain amount of time if I take this opportunity of informing Her Majesty's Government and your Lordships that I do not propose to move the new clause standing in my name on the Marshalled List. But before doing so I should like to have some assurance from Her Majesty's Government that they will consider points that are contained in that now clause.
  In Clause 1, which we are about to pass, and which is, in fact, the whole of the Bill (unless the Government accept any Amendment, which I rather think they are not going to do), your Lordships have for the first time accepted the principle that women shall be Members of your Lordships' House. I remember. though somewhat dimly, that some ten years ago the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, brought forward a Motion in which he desired that your Lordships should approve the principle of hereditary peerages being extended to women in the case of those who were created Peers, but without mention of existing peerages. I had down a separate Motion, that Peeresses in their own right should also be permitted to sit, since that was not covered by the noble Viscount's Motion. Lord Cecil of Chelwood's Motion was received with so much general opposition that he withdrew it. I did not move mine, as it was clear at that time that your Lordships were strongly against the admission of women.
  Today, things are very different; and by an overwhelming majority your Lordships have for the first time accepted the future presence of women among you. I would submit, however, that Clause 1 of this Bill creates a most unfortunate and unjustifiable anomaly, inasmuch as it permits the introduction of women as Life Peers but does nothing whatever to regularise the position of those women who have succeeded to hereditary peerages and who, but for the accident of sex, would be sitting in your Lordships' House. And I feel that, as Her Majesty's Government have, very rightly, accepted
  1256
  the continuance of the hereditary principle, it is rather an insult that they should not also be willing to accept the presence of those ladies who, but for the accident of sex, would be already among us.
  I would therefore ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in future legislation within the lifetime of this Parliament, they will consider introducing another small Bill which will remedy this added injustice and, at the same time, put an end to the anomaly of the position of 'those Peers of Scotland who are not elected Representative Peers. There are approximately thirty of them and, from the point of view of legislation and the Government of the country, they are neither "fish, flesh, fowl, nor good red herring." If they are not elected as Representative Peers they cannot vote in a Parliamentary Election and cannot be elected Members of another place. Surely it is only elementary justice that this extraordinary position, which has now gone on for 250 years, should be put right. I would therefore ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will produce such legislation, or, if they should not think fit to do so, would adopt an attitude of benevolent neutrality if one of your Lordships should take it upon himself to do so.
  5.44 p.m.
  THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am much too anxious to see this Bill on the Statute Book as speedily as possible to press the Government to do anything which might in any way prejudice its chances. I think the Bill is designed to do the greatest possible amount of good with the least possible amount of controversy. I quite understand the reasons why it was not thought desirable to include what my noble friend Lord Mansfield wishes to be included in this Bill. I only want to point out this. These twenty-five ladies—or whatever their number is: the Peeresses in their own right—are, I think, the only citizens of this country who are completely ostracised from all political rights. Not only are they not allowed to sit in this House; they are also not allowed to sit or vote in the House of Commons. With respect to the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, I do not think that the injustice is quite the same in regard to male Peers of Scotland, because they have the right to vote for Members of Parliament—that is, for some of their own number to sit in your

  1257
  Lordships' House. That does not apply to Peeresses in their own right of any kind. Though their number is very small, the political injustice is there. They are the only people in this country who are deprived of all political rights as voters and citizens.
  LORD MATHERS: There are several facets to this particular point which has been raised by the noble Earls opposite. I simply want to say that in my experience—and it has been confirmed in conversations I have had about this Bill with many people—I find that the point of view expressed by the two noble Earls is widely shared. I want to make that fact clear. I think it is only fair that the Government should know that there is some concern in the country about this position.
  LORD CLITHEROE: May I say one word to express my sympathy with the point of view which has been put forward? I should like also to add one other point, which is referred to in the clause which is down in my name on the Marshalled List, and which I should now like to give notice I do not propose to move. I appreciate that it is really out of order. I am bound to say that, when I put down the Amendment, I had a strong suspicion that that was the case, but I have done so in order to draw attention to an anomaly which is just as great as those which have been referred to. This occurs in connection with the case of a Peer of Ireland. An Englishman resident in this country who happens to hold an Irish peerage is debarred from voting in a Parliamentary Election, and is not in a position to vote for a Representative Peer of Ireland because these latter elections have not taken place for more than thirty years and are now obsolete. These Irish Peers are therefore entirely disqualified and in the same position as a lunatic or a criminal. I feel that that is a case which has a very strong claim to be considered, though I appreciate that when a debate is in progress on this Bill that is not the proper time to do it. I ask Her Majesty's Government to take careful note of this point, and. when legislation comes along, to see whether this anomaly can be remedied.
  5.49 p.m.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Mans
  1258
  field and Lord Clitheroe for the course they have taken, which is very helpful in the circumstances. The point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, is even more difficult than it at first appears. My information is that there are twenty-four hereditary Peeresses in question. Ten of them hold Baronies by right—these are Baronies that depend on the original Writ of Summons and in mediæval times were held to be descendable to heirs general. In regard to Peeresses by Writ, these are English titles and if there is no son of the holder they go into abeyance. Where there are two daughters, they go into abeyance until the line of one daughter becomes extinct and the other represents, at any rate, a certain portion of the Barony. Then there are seven Peeresses who hold United Kingdom peerages by grant, including the succession. They raise the difficulty that in every one of these cases it was specifically put in the grant that no lady should sit in your Lordships' House. Then there are, I think, seven Peeresses who hold Scottish peerages. In Scotland, we have an entirely different system. If a peerage is descendable to heirs general, the elder girl, as senior heir in the line of the family, takes the peerage and it does not go into abeyance.
  I am sure that my noble friend Lord Mansfield, whom I have known during a friendship of forty years, is interested in these points. He will see that there are difficulties that arise in regard to every one of these classes. Baronies by Writ raise the question of abeyance and how we might have to deal with that problem. The second group of United Kingdom grants raises the question of what was intended by the grants. The Scottish peerages are relatively simple because Scottish law on that point is much simpler. These are points that I should like to discuss with my noble friend in case he has any ideas. But the broad difficulty that we are in on this Bill is that the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition has indicated that the extension of the hereditary principle would not be acceptable and would raise difficulties.
  That is why I have put on record the extent of the problem, because I do not want to commit anyone or make any request to anyone, except the one so constantly made to me, of considering what

  1259
  I have said. I have set out the problem, which is in a small compass and which might be in an even smaller compass in consideration. I would ask all noble Lords to consider the problem for our future action. My noble friend Lord Mansfield has asked me to promise either future legislation or benevolent neutrality to a Private Member's Bill. I venture to repeat what I have said before and what my noble friend the Leader of the House said in this connection a short time ago. I would ask your Lordships everywhere to consider how the House works with the differences that we propose to make under this Bill and with the suggestions that have been put forward for applying the Swinton proposals. When we have seen that, I think that we shall all be in a better position to consider what the next step may be.
  In our first debate, I ventured to suggest that we should approach the problem without preconception. I should like to take up the same position to-day. I hope that my noble friend will appreciate what I am doing. I am making an appeal to all noble Lords to consider the House as it comes out from the proposals in this Bill and the Swinton proposals, remembering, as I ventured to say on another occasion, that the House is an organic and dynamic part of the Constitution. If we look at the matter in that spirit, I believe that we shall be able to make further improvements in the Constitution of the House. If, or when (I hope it will be when), that time comes, then I would ask noble Lords opposite to give them sympathetic attention. The noble Lord, Lord Mathers, with his well-known fairness, underlined that point a moment ago. Let us not commit ourselves to-night, but let us try to consider this problem with others in an attitude free of preconceptions and with a fair consideration of all that this involves. I hope that my noble friend will think that I have gone far enough, though it is not so far as he would like me to go. I recognise the problem and I hope that he will now let it rest on that basis.
  LORD GIFFORD: The noble and learned Viscount has told us of the difficulties, which I think we all fully appreciate, of extending the hereditary principle, and also the additional constitu-
  1260
  tional difficulties; but I think that there is a general feeling that the hereditary Peeresses are having, to put it colloquially, "a slightly raw deal." I would ask the noble and learned Viscount whether it is possible for him to use such influence as he is able to bring to bear to see that the hereditary Peeresses are given special consideration for appointment to life peerages where that is possible and desirable.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am grateful to my noble friend, Lord Gifford, for raising that point, because I did make it clear the first time that this question was raised that there is nothing to prevent any Prime Minister from recommending Peeresses in their own right for nomination as Life Peers. My noble friend will appreciate that neither I nor my noble friend the Leader of the House can commit my right honourable friend the Prime Minister on any point, but I shall certainly convey what my noble friend has said to my right honourable friend the Prime Minister—and also the view my noble friend has expressed, that these ladies have been put in a position which many of your Lordships consider to be an unfair one.
  EARL WINTERTON: My noble friend Lord Clitheroe raised a question which does not strictly apply on this Amendment, on the position of Irish peerages, in which I am naturally interested, having been one for thirty-six years. The noble and learned Viscount was not quite correct in what he said. He said that Irish Peers could not vote in Parliamentary elections. They can, if they are Members of another place; and so long as they remain on the register they can continue to vote, even if they cease to be Members of another place. I know this from personal experience, as I ceased to be a Member of another place at the General Election of 1951, and I voted for my successor. The whole position could not be more anomalous, and I hope that when the noble and learned Viscount looks into the other question he will also look into the position of Irish peerages. I cannot see, for the life of me, why the setting right of this anomalous and, as my noble friend Lord Clitheroe said, very unfair position could possibly affect prejudicially, one way or the other, the hereditary principle.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Winterton for reminding me of this point, and I apologise to my noble friend Lord Clitheroe for omitting it. The noble Earl is perfectly right. That is the position: an Irish Peer cannot vote unless he is elected to another place, and then he can. I looked up the position and saw that, curiously enough, under the Representation of the People Act, 1918, a Peeress in her own right can vote. So that obviously this discussion has shown a number of anomalies which are really matters for a Representation of the People Act. I do not think there is any question of hereditary principle arising there. They are anomalies which ought to be looked at, and I shall convey to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary that they require looking at when another opportunity arises.
  THE EARL OF DUNDEE: If a Peeress in her own right can vote, does it follow that she can offer herself for election?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No.
  THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has couched his reply with such careful legal ingenuity that I am afraid I must study Hansard carefully to-morrow before I know just what he has said and how much the seeming encouragement is to be relied upon. However, I thank him for his reply. I would say to my noble friend Lord Clitheroe that the position of the Peers of Ireland, although unsatisfactory, is far less unsatisfactory than that off the Peers of Scotland. I, as a member of another place. sat with my noble friends Lord Winterton, Lord Castle Stewart and Lord Fermoy, all of whom were Irish Peers, and all sitting in another place, which no Peer of Scotland can do.
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  6.0 p.m.
  LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved, after Clause 1 to insert the following new clause:
  Holder of hereditary peerage may apply to amend the letters patent of his peerage to a
  life peerage
  At any time after the passing of this Act any peer, not being a person on whom a life peerage has been conferred under the provisions of this Act, may, subject to the consent of the next heir or his lawfully appointed
  1262
  guardian as the case may be, submit an Address to Her Majesty praying that the letters patent relating to his peerage shall be so amended as to confer on such peer a life peerage instead of his existing peerage."
  The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name and that of a number of my noble friends. The purpose of this new clause is, I think, quite simple and, I hope, understandable and drawn in fairly respectable terms; but if it is not, I hope the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor will not dismiss it merely on the ground of unsatisfactory drafting. The object of this Amendment is to enable an hereditary Peer to convert his hereditary peerage into a life peerage. I should, however, be less than candid if I left it at that and failed to explain that this Amendment is linked lip with the next one, which then would enable a Life Peer to renounce his peerage at any time. The purpose of the two new clauses combined is to enable an hereditary Peer who regards the hereditary peerage as an encumbrance, not necessarily on himself but on his successors, to renounce the peerage and become an ordinary citizen.
  THE EARL OF HOME: Is the noble Lord moving the two Amendments together?
  LORD SILKIN: No; but I thought I should explain the background of the two Amendments, because without the second the first is not entirely explicable. Your Lordships will appreciate the background of what I am seeking to do. A number of noble Lords have found themselves in the dilemma that, while they themselves have no doubt enjoyed being Members of your Lordships' House, the next of kin, who was in due course bound to suceed to the peerage, regarded membership of your Lordships' House as an encumbrance. We have examples of Members of your Lordships' House who came here most reluctantly and sought every opportunity (which, unfortunately for them, was not available) of renouncing their peerage. It is an anomaly that people should be compulsory Peers of this House.
  Those of us who came here as Peers of first instance came here of our own volition and knew what we were doing, and if we were wise we consulted our next of kin or heirs. But in some cases those

  1263
  heirs were infants and were not in a position to give an effective view; and in other cases the then heir died, and the person who is to-day the heir was never consulted, because he was never in a position to be consulted. So we have in this House a number of Peers who are here not of their own volition, and who would desire, if at all possible, to renounce their peerage. That is the background against which the two Amendments are being moved.
  I believe that there is a good deal of sympathy on both sides of the House for the position of those Peers who have been forced to come here against their will and may thereby have sacrificed promising careers in another place. Let us not close our eyes to the fact that the "glittering prizes" that exist in the political field are not so much in this House but in the other place; and if there is a person who feels that he has the ability to distinguish himself in another place it seems to me quite wrong that that opportunity should be taken away from him and that he should be forced against his will to come here.
  The Amendment I am now moving strikes me as being justifiable on its merits; that is, that any hereditary Peer should be entitled to convert his hereditary peerage into a life peerage. After all, we are to-day legislating for the appointment of a number of Life Peers, and the Bill says that any person may be appointed a Life Peer, with certain exceptions; and one exception is an hereditary Peer. I can see no justification why it should not be possible to appoint an hereditary Peer as a Life Peer. What I am really seeking to do is to make the provisions of this Bill retrospective, at any rate so far as Peers of first creation are concerned. A number of Peers of first creation, if they had had the opportunity of accepting a life peerage instead of an hereditary peerage, would have done so: and it was only because there was no such opportunity at the time of their creation that they accepted the hereditary peerage. It does not strike me as being an unreasonable thing to suggest that now, if this opportunity is going to be available, it should be made available to those Peers who would have taken a life peerage if they had had the chance.
  1264
  I have realised that an hereditary Peer should not be able to renounce his peerage without consulting his heir; and the new clause, therefore, provides that the heir or, if appropriate, the guardian of the heir, should give his consent. If he does not give his consent, then the peerage cannot be converted into a life peerage; but if he does, then I submit that the Peer should have the right to make the necessary conversion. I do not wish to argue this by analogy. I know that the position of the heir, even of the more remote heirs, is one which has to be taken into account. Your Lordships will be familiar with the position of an entailed estate. I am by no means an authority on this subject, but I understand that an entail can be barred if the existing tenants and the next of kin agree by deed. They can in that way shut out all the more remote descendants. If that can be done so far as land is concerned, it does not seem to me to be inappropriate that, equally, a title should be barred by agreement between a Peer and his next of kin. For those reasons—and I do not think the matter requires any elaboration because your Lordships are fully familiar with the problem—we on this side thought it right to move the series of new clauses which we hoped would give effect to our desire to enable any Peer who regards his title as an encumbrance to renounce it. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 1 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Silkin.)
  THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: The object of this Amendment may be justified, but the Amendment in its present form is wholly detestable. When a man and his family have had the honour of having a peerage conferred upon them, that peerage does not belong just to the owner of it or to his next of kin: it belongs to all those who are in remainder. The comparison between landed property and an hereditary title is not a proper one at all. It may well be that a next heir would signify his agreement, although he himself was unlikely or unable to have a family, and there might be another heir who did not in the least wish to give up his rights. For that reason, I do not think we could possibly accept this Amendment. I agree, however, that there are cases in which a person succeeding

  1265
  to an hereditary peerage may not wish to exercise it—I have spoken in your Lordships' House on that point on more than one occasion. I think provision should and could be made that anyone succeeding to a peerage should be able to opt as to whether he would take it up or whether the peerage should, so to speak, go into abeyance during his lifetime, but without prejudice to the right of his heirs to "umpteen" generations. For that reason, I hope that the Government will rot accept this Amendment as it stands, hut that the objects behind it will receive their consideration, having regard to the possibility of future legislation which was not entirely rejected by the noble and learned Viscount a few moments ago.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has, with commendable and expected frankness, said that the two clauses hang together although, of course, they are severable. Therefore, one must consider the whole picture which is raised by the two clauses. The first is the clause permitting convertibility, and the second is the provision allowing the person who has a life peerage—which, of course, he may get through convertibility—to resign that peerage and sit in the House of Commons.
  I wish to deal first with the points that are raised by the first Amendment, and I hope to answer some of those which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has suggested. There is a difficulty, which gathered from some guarded words of his he had seen, and I should like to draw his attention to it a little more fully. I am not plating it forward—I am sure the noble Lord knows me well enough to appreciate that—merely as a matter of avoiding arguing the Amendment on the merits. I shall do my best to do that, but he will see the difficulty is that the first new clause says:
  "Any Peer"—
  I omit the following words—
  "may … submit an Address to Her Majesty praying that the letters patent … shall be so amended as to confer … a life peerage …"
  That, of course, has the defect. which I am sure the noble Lord has seen, that it does not confer upon Her Majesty power either to accept a surrender of an hereditary peerage or to amend an existing peerage by altering the limitations and
  1266
  cutting out the remaindermen. That is the real point. The power would have to be conferred; and were the power to be conferred (because, of course, in a constitutional monarchy, the Sovereign acts on advice), I think it would have to be enacted on what principles the Sovereign would act, or else to suggest a machinery by which it could be carried through. I hope that noble Lords opposite will not misunderstand me. I am not raising this as a technical difficulty to the Amendment. I am raising it as a point which would require much further consideration and application of minds before the clause could be made right.
  The other point is the point which I think my noble friend Lord Mansfield had in mind, with regard to the heir. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, again has faced up to this point and has legitimately, if he will allow me to say so, taken the analogy from land. Nothing could be more legitimate, because your Lordships' House, in the Buckhurst Peerage case, said they would not recognise the remainder in that case because it did not follow any recognised system of the devolution of land. So I give that to the noble Lord—he has raised a perfectly fair analogy. But I do not think it applies to the case of a peerage, because myself, in considering this matter, thought of two cases where the peerages concerned happened to be old and historic peerages (I will not mention names, because I do not wish to embarrass anyone by doing so) where the situation happened to be that there was an elderly heir intervening between the holder and the next heir of line. That is one position where one can see that it would not be very satisfactory if one had the holder of a peerage and the next heir, who in all probability would not succeed, combining to bar the person who would succeed. Of course, you would also have the position, which would be, I think, a real practical difficulty, where you had an infant child and his guardian was the father who actually himself wanted to get rid of the peerage.
  I raise these points because I think they are real points. But, of course, I promised the noble Lord that I would not deal with the Amendment merely on the difficulties that arise. Assume all my difficulties now could be swept out of the way, one then comes to meet the

  1267
  question of principle. This is the suggestion of noble Lords opposite for the reform of your Lordships' House; in other words, that an individual right should be given to hereditary Peers to get rid of their hereditary peerages. I think that the only possible effect of that would be a derogatory effect on the position of hereditary peerages.
  One is in this difficulty—believe me, I am not complaining of this at all; I appreciate the point of view of noble Lords opposite if I do not agree with it. They have said, "We will not consider any reform of your Lordships' House which extends the privileges of hereditary peerages; nor will we consider any reform of your Lordships' House which improves the persuasive position or prestige of hereditary peerages". I think I am quoting almost word for word what the noble Viscount has said, and I think I am giving quite fairly all points of view. Surely it follows from that that you cannot exclude any extension of privileges or exclude the right of the hereditary section of your Lordships' House to reorganise itself or reduce its numbers, which may improve its prestige, and at the same time suggest a method which would eat away, bit by bit, the hereditary element in the House. It does not seem to me to be logical.
  When one comes to the other point—and I must consider them together because they are linked together—one is in this difficulty: that the object of the Bill is to increase the number of people available for service in your Lordships' House, by those who feel they cannot take hereditary peerages—men and women who would take life peerages. It is illogical, in the same Bill—and this would be the effect of the Amendment of noble Lords opposite—when you are looking for fresh members (that is, Life Peers and women) at the same time to allow a draining off of your Lordships' House, because the objective and the result of the two Amendments taken together is to allow people to withdraw from your Lordships' House and serve in the House of Commons.
  EARL ATTLEE: Surely it is rather convenient to make room for those you want to bring in.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think if the noble Earl accepts the pre-
  1268
  mise that we do want more people, then there is no need to make room for them the gap already exists.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: If the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor accepts the premise that we want more people, why does he appoint the Swinton Committee to allow hundreds to withdraw?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: We want more people who will do the daily work of the House. That has always been our point of view, and I do not think anyone can say I have ever said anything else. I was going to say on the second Amendment that the point of view that I have always taken is that the provision in subsection (2) of Amendment 10 is a matter for the House of Commons and, by the comity of the two Houses, should be introduced there. I think it is the general practice that provisions which affect one House are introduced in that House; that is why this Bill was introduced in your Lordships' House. I have always said that those provisions which affect the membership of the House of Commons ought to be dealt with there.
  I have not been able to understand—and again I am not making a debating point—why the opportunity has not been taken to introduce a Bill under the Ten Minute Rule of the House of Commons in order that we might have the guidance of the House of Commons on this point. It is a very simple matter; it only means drafting a Bill and occupying a certain amount of time—I think there are twelve such Bills on the Order Paper of the House of Commons to-day. It would be an easy matter to get the view of the House of Commons on this point. I think it is a salutary principle that legislation which primarily affects one House should be introduced in that House. For all those reasons I am sorry that I cannot accept the Amendment of the noble Lord and I must ask your Lordships to reject it.
  6.26 p.m.
  LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: I am sure we are all indebted to the noble and learned Viscount for that useful and enlightening explanation, but the fact remains that the prime purpose of these new clauses is to make it possible for a person who finds himself here and does not wish to remain, to go. That seems to me very desirable. That a person

  1269
  should be compelled to remain a member of a Legislature in which he does not wish to serve seems to me a very bad thing. I myself, speaking entirely for myself, would welcome the solution which the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, suggested; that would meet my point entirely. Surely in the creation of Life Peers there ought to be some provision for their resignation, if circumstances arise which make it impossible or undesirable for them later on to continue their membership.
  The primary purpose of this Amendment is to see to it that in making this new class of legislator we do not continue a curious anomaly which means that, once appointed, they can never resign. The same is true in some senses of Members of the House of Commons, but by a device which has been worked for a very long time, of applying for an office of profit under the Crown, they are able to disqualify themselves from membership; they are unable to resign. But Members of this House are unable to so disqualify themselves. The other forms of disqualification would be unpalatable; so they remain here because there are no acceptable means by which they can disqualify themselves. It seems to me a foolish thing, in considering the creation of Life Peers. to have the same position, that they cannot in any circumstances resign.
  Also there is the question of heirs to a peerage who are Members of the House of Commons and do not wish to leave it. I should have thought that the recent cases and discussion on this matter have shown how desirable it is to enable a person who wishes to remain a Member of the other House or become a Member of the other House to rid himself, at any rate for his lifetime, of what he regards as an encumbrance. I sincerely hope, in regard to the first point I have made, that in this Bill the Government will consider some mechanism of resignation, and in the wider consideration of the future of this House the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, will be borne in mind.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I just deal with the point the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston, has raised, on the question of resignation? As he realises, in the form in which the second Amendment is drawn at the moment, it applies not only to the Life Peers made
  1270
  under the Bill but also to those who, under the first Amendment, resign an hereditary peerage. But assuming for a moment that it was moved in a different form; that subsection (2) w as dropped, because that is a matter for the House of Commons—that is, assuming that the Amendment was entirely limited to the question of resignation—I still think that there is no need for the power of resignation.
  I say that for two reasons. First, there is, of course, no limit on the number of Life Peers, and therefore it is not necessary that one Life Peer should resign in order to make an opening for another. The second reason is that we hope that, under the Swinton proposals, the Life Peer will, like any other Peer, be able to apply for leave of absence if he finds that his health gives way, or anything of that kind. But what is quite wrong is the further suggestion that a Life Peer should be able to chop and change and resign his life peerage and go to the House of Commons. That. I think, is derogatory to the whole conception of life peerages. If a man accepts a life peerage on the basis that he is prepared to come here and help with the work of the House, for him then to resign and go to the House of Commons would be derogatory to your Lordships' House and to the conception of life peerages. Therefore, I could not accept it.
  VISCOUNT ASTOR: If, during the war, there had been a reunion of all the male relatives of the Duke of Marlborough at Blenheim Palace, and that Palace had been hit by a bomb and everybody had been killed, the then Prime Minister might conceivably have become the Duke of Marlborough and might have had to be forcibly transferred to your Lordships' House. And in the interests of the nation as a whole that would have been a catastrophe. It would be nothing to do with the House of Lords or with the House of Commons but would concern the nation as a whole, because under our present system it is essential that the Prime Minister should be a Member of the House of Commons, and by our present arrangements this country—I am sorry if I am interrupting the conversation—
  THE EARL OF HOME: I was only suggesting that, Sir Winston Churchill being

  1271
  such a special person, he would probably have required a special Act.
  VISCOUNT ASTOR: The noble Earl the Leader of the House has given the case away. We are depriving ourselves as a country as a whole of having, if necessary, the best available men for the most important jobs. That is the fundamental fact, and I think the Lord Chancellor's argument that we should leave that to the House of Commons is an extremely bad one. It is a matter that concerns the nation as a whole, and one as much for us as for the House of Commons. It is in the interests of the nation as a whole that the best men should be available for any job. Therefore, while no doubt this Amendment will probably not be divided upon, I hope that this discussion will be heard in another place and that, if the point is not taken up, we may on the Report stage have occasion to consider the matter again.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: What the Lord Chancellor has not told us is what he thinks about the merits of the case. He has made this point more than once, that this is a matter which should be raised in the House of Commons. I do not know why he says that, because it is a matter that touches the personal position of Members, or prospective Members, of this House. He says that it should be raised in the House of Commons. But he must know that the rules (I think they are called the "Selborne Rules," concerning the practice of the House, and followed Lord Selborne's attempt to remain in the House) can be altered only by legislation. Why does he say that this legislation must originate in the House of Commons, seeing that it touches both Houses? And why does he object to its originating in this House? Further, will be say what is his own view, or the Government's view, supposing all the constitutional proprieties were observed, about the forcible transfer of Members of the House of Commons to this House on the death of their parent?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: With regard to the last question, it is certainly the Government's view that the comity which must exist between the two Houses demands that a matter which affects and alters the recruitment of the House
  1272
  of Commons should be initiated in the House of Commons. That is sufficient ground, in the Government's view, for inviting the House to reject the Amendment, although I have given other reasons for rejecting the rest of it. That is the Government's view. The noble Viscount has asked me for my view.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Well, I asked for the Government's view, but the Lord Chancellor is very important.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That is the reason why the Government suggest that that part of the Amendment should be rejected. I have given the reasons why the Government ask for the other parts to be rejected. I thought that the noble Viscount was going to ask me for my own view.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I should be glad to have it.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My own view—and this does not bind the Government at all; the noble Viscount asked me for my own view, and he will get it—is that if someone has had the good fortune to be born in the position that carries a seat in your Lordships' House, he ought to be very content with the means of serving his country which your Lordships' House gives. That is my personal view.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: May I just add this? If I use the word "evasive", I hope I shall not be considered disorderly in this House, but a particular case has been tried at every angle. It was tried before the Personal Bills Committee, and the judges said, "This is a matter for a general Bill". It was tried in this House, and the Lord Chancellor said, "This is a matter for a general Bill and not a particular Bill." Now, when the Government brings forward a Bill and an Amendment is put forward, as is normal, the Government then say that the Amendment must be moved somewhere else. If the word "evasive" were used, I hope the Lord Chancellor would not consider it entirely inappropriate.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Viscount is entitled to use any adjective of that nature that he likes. He knows that I am not merely being pleasant to him; he knows perfectly well

  1273
  that I should never take offence at any adjective he uses.
  I do want to say, however, that I can-riot understand why, if there is so much certainty as to the feeling, a Bill under the Ten-Minute Rule has not been introduced which would enable this House to know what is the feeling in the House of Commons. He may think that evasive, and he is entitled to his point of view. But I think it is right that, where a matter affects the House of Commons, and when for hundreds of years the House of Commons has taken the view that it does against the admission of Members of your Lordships' House—and, after all, it is a rule of the House of Commons and the common law of Parliament—that House should express its view before your Lordships' House purports to legislate with regard to the constitution of the other House. I am sorry if the noble Viscount regards that as evasive; I think that it is right and good manners.
  THE EARL OF HOME: On a matter of information, may I know whether the Committee are discussing both Amendments together?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No.
  THE EARL OF HOME: We seem to have been doing so all the time.
  6 40 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: As I understood it, the arrangement made with Her Majesty's Government, through the usual channels, was that two days should be taken to put through this measure, so that we should not be overpressed on one day; so perhaps it would be convenient if the Committee do not sit late tonight. Perhaps, therefore, it would be convenient if we were to divide on the first Amendment very soon, and then, if it is agreeable to the Committee, postpone further discussion until to-morrow. In the meantime, may I say that I am greatly obliged to the noble and learned Viscount for the effort that he has made to explain the position to us, but I have much sympathy with the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, who has taken a great interest in this matter, when he points to the continuing duality as to whether this House or the other Chamber is responsible for a certain piece of legislation.
  1274
  On the Second Reading of the Bill I myself argued that if there was any question of an alteration to the Constitution of the House of Lords, that was a matter so important that it ought not to be introduced here but in another place. That was my view then, and it remains my view but if Her Majesty's Government choose to bring a Bill of this importance into this Chamber and we then put down Amendments which are within the Title of the Bill, it seems to me that they ought to be taken quite seriously. On that basis, having regard to procedure, if this is a Bill which is to become a General Act of Parliament and to alter the Constitution of the House of Lords, and is initiated here by Her Majesty's Government, we ought to be able to move whatever Amendments we feel should be brought to the notice of another place in later stages of the passage of the Bill.
  I am much obliged to the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, for his intervention just now. So far as I can remember, I have never discussed with him his personal position in this regard, but I should imagine that he is a notable example of one who follows the desires of his noble father, who was an intimate friend of mine and who never desired to come to this House but rather to stay in another place. Though he had to come here, believe that he would have been far happier if he could have been left in another place. I believe the "Bellringer of the House" was very angry at the bell of the law being rung over his head, compelling him to come from the other place to this House; and there are other cases which could be added to the list. I certainly have tremendous sympathy with these Peers.
  We have therefore put down this Amendment in totally good faith. Her Majesty's Government have said, through both the noble Earl the Leader of the House and the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, that they did not want to have this, that or the other in the Bill because they wanted to be able to accomplish by the Bill something which would lead to the least amount of disagreement. In view of the difficulty that we have had in the past over trying to arrange a fair deal for the sons of hereditary Peers in another place who did not want to come here, I suggest that we could pass something of this kind with the least

  1275
  possible disagreement; and as a first step towards that end I hope that we shall get the support of quite a number of Peers from all Parties in the House for the first Amendment, and that we can come to the more detailed discussion of the second Amendment to-morrow.
  LORD SILKIN: My Lords, before we proceed finally to deal with this Amendment, I should like to explain to the noble and learned Viscount that we found ourselves in this difficulty: the Bill was so tightly drawn as to make it almost impossible to put down an Amendment in the terms we should have liked. We therefore had to exercise our ingenuity, and we have done so and just managed to get within the terms of order. I imagine that the noble and learned Viscount went through all the Amendments with a very fine toothcomb and tried to eliminate all that he could as being out of order. These Amendments are in order. I plead guilty to the fact that they are not technically perfect, and that no doubt they could be improved upon by way of machinery and in working; and I should have hoped that we could have the help of the noble and learned Viscount and others in making this Amendment right, had they desired to accept the principle.
  I want to say one word more on the principle. I am not worried about technicalities, for I am sure that they could be put in order. Two noble Lords have spoken from the other side, both accepting the idea that there is a real problem to which this House ought to apply its mind. It is no good evading the problem and saying that people ought to feel privileged to come here, when they have never been consulted. Of course, those who come here first come of their own volition; but those who succeed have not always been consulted, and their position may change. I fully agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, that people should have the right to determine their own lives and to make such contribution to public affairs as they think is best; and the country requires that we should get the best people directed to the most useful spheres. It seems to me a complete waste to have hereditary legislators who are acting in an unwilling capacity.
  The noble and learned Viscount did not really direct his mind to that point
  1276
  at all. The argument he gave was that it was illogical, on the one hand, to be taking powers to create new Life Peers and, on the other hand, to drain off a number of Peers. But the Peers we are draining off are those who do not want to be here in any case. Even if this Amendment were accepted in principle, I do not imagine that many would wish to bar their heredity. Their numbers would be limited. We have taken a much bigger step in draining off Peers by providing for leave of absence, and it is possible for large numbers of Peers not to put their foot into this place. We shall be legitimising the position in future by giving Peers actual leave of absence and thereby draining off membership of this House to a far greater extent than could possibly arise out of this Amendment.
  The trouble is not that we are going to be too few in numbers. This is a House of over 800 Peers, and the problem is not that we are likely to lose so many Peers that we shall be unable to function. The real problem is that we have not got the requisite number of working Peers. The idea of a life peerage is to provide for Peers who are prepared to come here and devote themselves to the work of this House, and we do not require a very large number. Therefore, if that is the case against this Amendment—the illogical draining off of Peers on one hand and, on the other hand, creating them—I must confess that that argument is not up to the usual standard of the noble and learned Viscount, because he is usually very convincing. Therefore I feel that nothing is being done about this real dilemma, which everybody accepts is a dilemma. We are just leaving it alone. I feel we should divide the House on the principle of this Amendment.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not want to continue the debate with the noble Lord for too long. I want only to make clear that what we are doing now, as I understand the noble Viscount, is dividing on the first Amendment.
  LORD SILKIN: Yes.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: And leaving it open to noble Lords to say something more on the second. So this Division is on the principle of whether holders of hereditary peerages ought to have the right of petitioning to have them changed into life peerages.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I see a certain difficulty about the House separating these two Amendments. The noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, suggested that we should divide on this one, without reference to the other, and discuss the other Amendment to-morrow. But, in fact, as has been made clear, they are part of the same plan. There was a two-stage plan: the hereditary Peer becomes a Life Peer, and under the second Amendment he is able to renounce his right to receive a Writ of Summons and then can go back to the House of Commons. If we accept the first Amendment and do not accept the second all that will happen to this unhappy man is that he will have a life sentence in this House, because he will cease to be an hereditary Peer and will become a Life Peer.
  VISCOUNT STANSGATE: The noble Marquess has overlooked one point: the possibility that an hereditary Peer can become a Life Peer and liberate his son from forcible attendance here.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: That could be so. But the man himself—it was part of the noble Lord's argument—who does not want to stay in this House but has a great love for the other place, or thinks he has a greater career there, will not be benefited by the first Amendment at all; and I should have thought that the Committee, in considering the first Amendment, must take into account the second stage of the plan. If noble Lords are not in favour of the second stage of the plan, they ought not to vote for the first stage of the plan. If they are, then, of course, they can do whatever they feel inclined. That is my personal view.
  LORD SILKIN: Surely it is open to noble Lords to take the view that the Amendment which is now the subject of discussion is worth supporting on its own
  merits, regardless of the second. Surely it should be possible for a noble Lord to convert his peerage into a life peerage.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: But the noble Viscount was accusing us—or, rather, the Lord Chancellor—of being evasive. I think this is being evasive. It is riot what the noble Lord wants at all. He says they can be treated separately; but they cannot, from the point of view of the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, and, I think, of most of the other noble Members of the Front Bench opposite.
  EARL ATTLEE: There is a point which I think the noble Marquess has not quite grasped: there are two sides. You consider first of all the position of someone who is already in this House, and you consider the person who is bound to come here in due course. It is true that, taking only the first Amendment, you really deal only with the heir, because he may escape being forced to come here. You do not deal with the man who is here and wants to get out. Nevertheless, you have accomplished something, and the issues are strictly severable.
  LORD GORELL: The first Amendment refers to the heir. The noble Earl has spoken of the heir who is bound to come. He is not bound to come—he may die. Consider my own case. I am a second son. My elder brother succeeded, and died in the war. I was not consulted; he was. There are many more ramifications than these wordings suggest. If this Amendment is passed, someone who is never consulted at all might find himself denied rights which might otherwise be his.
  On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
  Their Lordships divided: Contents, 25; Not-Contents, 75.

  CONTENTS

  Attlee, E.

  Burden, L. [Teller.]

  Noel-Buxton, L.

  Lucan, E, [Teller.]

  Darwen, L.

  Pakenham, L.

  Faringdon, L.

  Shepherd, L.

  Addison, V.

  Greenhill, L.

  Silkin, L.

  Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

  Kershaw, L.

  Strabolgi, L.

  Astor, V.

  Lawson, L.

  Strang, L.

  Stansgate, V.

  Mathers, L.

  Williams, L.

  Stonehaven, V.

  Milner of Leeds, L.

  Wilmot of Selmeston, L.

  Moyne, L.

  Wise, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS

  Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

  Bridgeman, V.

  Gifford, L.

  Colville of Culross, V.

  Gisborough, L.

  Hailsham, V. (L. President.)

  Crookshank, V.

  Glyn, L.

  FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

  Gorell, L.

  Buccleuch and Queensberry, D.

  Gage, V.

  Gridley, L.

  Wellington, D.

  Hyndley, V.

  Hastings, L.

  Long, V.

  Hatherton, L.

  Lansdowne, M.

  Margesson, V.

  Jessel, L.

  Salisbury, M.

  Mersey, V.

  Kinnaird, L.

  Samuel, V.

  Lloyd, L.

  Albemarle, E.

  McCorquodale of Newton, L.

  Breadalbane and Holland, E.

  Ashbourne, L.

  Mancroft, L.

  Cranbrook, E.

  Ashton of Hyde, L.

  Merrivale, L.

  Dundee, E.

  Barnby, L.

  Mills, L.

  Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

  Broughshane, L.

  Milne, L.

  Gosford, E.

  Chesham, L.

  Newall, L.

  Home, E.

  Clitheroe, L.

  Rathcavan, L.

  Howe, E.

  Colwyn, L.

  Rea, L.

  Lonsdale, E.

  Conesford, L.

  St. Oswald, L.

  Mansfield, E.

  Cottesloe, L.

  Saltoun, L.

  Morley, E.

  Craigmyle, L.

  Sandford, L.

  Onslow, E. [Teller.]

  Denham, L.

  Somers, L.

  St. Aldwyn, E.

  Digby, L.

  Strathclyde, L.

  Selkirk, E.

  Dovercourt, L.

  Stratheden and Campbell, L.

  Swinton, E.

  Ebbisham, L.

  Teviot, L.

  Waldegrave, E.

  Ellenborough, L.

  Teynham, L.

  Erskine, L.

  Wolverton, L.

  Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to according
  House resumed.
  THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I think it will probably be for the general convenience if we now adjourn our debate on the Committee stage of the Life Peerages Bill.

  JUTE PRICES
  JUTE PRICES