Sitting of 16 April 1957

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PETITIONS

  Treasure Trove, Congleton
  Air Commodore Harvey: I beg leave to present a Petition signed by his Worship the Mayor of Congleton and 4,150 other residents of the Borough. The Petition
  Sheweth:
  That eighteen Gold Coins, 7 James 1 "Laurels" and 11 Charles I "Unites" were found in an old cottage at No. 12, Moody Street, Congleton, on 12th September, 1956, and were declared to be treasure trove by H. M. Coroner on I 10th October, 1956.
  That despite repeated requests to the Treasury and the British Museum that the Borough be permitted to acquire some or all of these Coins, the whole find was sold to the Grosvenor Museum, Chester.
  Wherefore your Petitioners pray that the eighteen Gold Coins of the reigns of James I and Charles I which were discovered in Moody Street, Congleton, shall not he allowed to go to a Chester Museum as directed by the British Museum, but that the Ancient Borough where they were found shall be allowed to purchase all or some of them as evidence of an historic local find.
  And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
  To lie upon the Table.

  Rent Bill
  Mr. H. Butler: On behalf of my constituents and persons working in the Borough of Hackney, I desire to present a Petition against the Rent Bill. My Petitioners are worried about the powers of landlords to issue notices to quit when there are no alternative premises for them to occupy. They are also worried because the increases in rent allowed will inflict hardship upon families with low incomes, particularly old-age pensioners. They pray that the Bill will be rejected.
  And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
  To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWER TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    China
    Sir L. Plummerasked the President of the Board of Trade why he differentiates in granting export licences for China between goods embargoed for export to the Soviet bloc prior to October, 1954, and since freed, and those goods not embargoed at that time.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Sir David Eccles): I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given on 9th April by my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State to the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Sorensen).
    Sir L. Plummer: May I ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will now consider that goods which are no longer on the embargo list of the Soviet Union should be allowed freely to be exported to China, and that the matter is now one of growing urgency? Could we now have his attention in the direction of expanding and not restricting our trade?
    Sir D. Eccles: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the exact matter he talks about is soon to be discussed with the other nations which have taken part in the agreement.
    Sir R. Boothby: Is not it a fact that this matter has been discussed very many times with the other nations concerned and that this has now gone on for nearly two years? May I ask whether my right hon. Friend really is satisfied with the present position regarding trade with China, which has become something of a scandal?
    Sir D. Eccles: As my hon. Friend knows, the Foreign Secretary told the House the other day that we were not willing to wait very much longer to get some changes in the situation.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Is not this now the time to have decision rather than discussion? We cannot go on being told we must wait a little longer—it all adds up to months and months and months.
    Sir D. Eccles: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that we should try to do these things in concert with our allies.
    Mr. Teelingasked the President of the Board of Trade what percentage the figures for trade with the Chinese mainland in 1936, 1946 and 1956 represented of the total trade of the United Kingdom with countries other than members of the Commonwealth.
    Sir D. Eccles: The figures are 1·8 per cent., 0·9 per cent. and 0·6 per cent. respectively.
    Mr. Teeling: In view of those figures, does not my right hon. Friend consider that we ought to think twice before coming to a decision which very evidently will alienate many people in the Far East—and far more than the people in this country realise?
    Mr. Stokes: As the President will not answer that Question, may I follow it up by asking whether he is aware that there is here a potential market of 600 million people? Some of us engaged in trade are getting fed up with the restrictions of the Government, which not only discourage any trade with China, but make it almost impossible for trade representatives to get over the boundary.
    Sir D. Eccles: I did not wish to he discourteous to my hon. Friend. I was not sure to what decision he was referring. In answer to the question asked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), I would say that I have been looking into the potential volume of the Chinese trade. It is a fact that Chinese trade is in balance with us, and as far as I can see, unless China sells less to Russia, or gets a credit from Russia, there is very little chance of any substantial expansion.
    Mr. Stokes: The President speaks in a state of vacuum. Is he aware that the Chinese propose to build 19 dams, and that I am very much interested in them? As I can do nothing about it at the present time, will Her Majesty's Government start to make it possible for us to enter into discussions?
    Sir D. Eccles:I think the question will come as to how the Chinese will pay for those dams. Perhaps the interested right hon. Gentleman will tell us.
    Mr. Lewisasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what action he has now taken to negotiate a trade agreement with China; what were the sterling
    1724
    amounts involved; and the types and quantities of goods mentioned in the agreement;
    (2) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that Japanese and West German exports to China increase during 1956 by 140 per cent. and 49 per cent., respectively, as compared with a 35 per cent. increase of United Kingdom exports; and what steps he proposes to take to ensure that British exporters are given every assistance to enter this important market.
    Sir D. Eccles:I am aware of the figures which the hon. Member has mentioned. As regards our own trade with China, subject to the strategic control, my Department gives all possible help to exporters. In present circumstances, I see no advantage in attempting to make a trade agreement with China.
    Mr. Lewis: As the President of the Board of Trade says that he is aware that all our competitors are increasing their trade, is it not about time that this Government did something? Is he not aware that, in addition to the 19 dams that have been mentioned, the Chinese are building 18 new towns, and have plenty of dollars with which to pay for the goods they want to import? Will he take the opportunity during the Easter Recess to go there and see for himself that the Americans, the Germans and the Russians are all doing enormous trade with China? And will he do something about it?
    Sir D. Eccles: I think that the hon. Gentleman is misinformed. The Germans, for instance, have no trade agreement, and the Japanese have only an unofficial one. It is no use trying to make a trade agreement when China can buy quite freely all the things that we can now offer China.
    Mr. Osborne: Why is it considered strategically more dangerous to trade with China than with Russia?
    Sir D. Eccles: That is a very different question.
    Mr. Jay: Even if it is true, which is not my information, that United Kingdom-China trade is at present balanced, is it not desirable that it should increase on both sides?
    Sir D. Eccles: Of course, I should like the trade to increase on both sides, but

    1725
    there are very large numbers of goods which the Chinese can import now, and are importing. For instance, I am told that the export of wool tops from this country to China is to increase this year.
    Mr. Shinwell: Did not the right hon. Gentleman say in reply to a previous Question that he doubted whether the Chinese could pay for the goods from this country? Can he explain how it is that the Chinese are able to pay the Japanese and the Germans?
    Sir D. Eccles: Their total trade is in balance today.
    Mr. Stokes: Has the President of the Board of Trade thought this out? What does he think would happen if everybody had a favourable balanec of trade or insisted on it? There would not be any trade at all.

    Philippines and Formosa
    Mr. Teelingasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what steps he is taking to improve the volume of our export trade to the Philippines;
    (2) what steps he is taking to improve our trade with Formosa.
    Sir D. Eccles: The Board of Trade keeps in touch with trade developments and opportunities in the Philippines and Formosa, and provides a regular service of commercial intelligence in respect of both markets.
    Mr. Teeling: As our export trade with the Philippines was £500,000 a year just before the war, £3 million in 1954, and £6 million in 1956, does not my right hon. Friend think that it is high time we did something more to become more popular in the Philippines? For instance, can be tell us why no Philippine journalists are ever asked to this country, no Philippine students are brought here by the British Council, and the Inter-Parliamentary Union has not asked any Philippine Parliamentary people to come here? Does he not really think it is high time that we did something more for that particular area—and for Formosa, because both countries are very interested in trading with us?
    Sir D. Eccles: My hon. Friend has raised many considerations outside the responsibility of the Board of Trade, but I undertake to look into them all with my right hon. Friends.

    Canned Tuna (Imports from Japan)
    Mrs. Butlerasked the President of the Board of Trade what assurance he will give that the canned tuna, to be imported from Japan under the agreement recently concluded, will be free from radio-active contamination, following the hydrogen bomb tests in the Pacific.
    Sir D. Eccles: I would refer the hon. Lady to the replies given on 2nd April by the Prime Minister to the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes), and on 25th March by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler).
    Mrs. Butler: In view of the increasing public apprehension about the dangers of radio-active contamination of fish in the Pacific area, will the President make some sort of statement as to what tests are to be carried out on this canned tuna, either in Japan or when it gets to this country?
    Sir D. Eccles: The hon. Lady may know that actual tests of the quality of fish would be a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health and not for me. Of course, there are, and have been for a long time, very much larger imports of canned Russian salmon, and we have not had any question asked about them.

    European Common Market (Commonwealth Trade)
    Mr. Hornbyasked the President of the Board of Trade what percentage of imports into Europe from the British Commonwealth is likely, under the existing proposals, to be affected by the inclusion of overseas territories in the Common Market.
    Sir D. Eccles: Of total Commonwealth exports to the members of the Customs and Economic Union, about 10 per cent. consists of goods which are also produced by their overseas territories and for which these territories will or may gain tariff preference in all countries of the Union. The extent to which this Commonwealth trade might in practice be affected depends on many factors, including the level of the common tariff ultimately introduced.
    Mr. Hornby: Can my right hon. Friend tell us whether any of the Commonwealth

    1727
    producers have indicated that they might welcome greater access to European countries than they have hitherto had?
    Sir D. Eccles: No, I do not think so. Some of the Commonwealth producers, of course, are very anxious that the tariff which the six countries put on shall be as low as possible.
    Mr. Turton: Could my right hon. Friend publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT details regarding the African Commonwealth territories and Colonies that are particularly affected by the Overseas Territories Convention?
    Sir D. Eccles: I will have to discuss that with the Colonial Secretary.

    Organisation for Trade Co-operation
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, having regard to the country's economic problems, he will reconsider Her Majesty's Government's policy towards the Organisation for Trade Co-operation, which is designed to give permanent form in the setting of the United Nations organisation to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.
    Sir D. Eccles: No, Sir.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Having regard to the relative decline of our Commonwealth trade and the need to reconcile a European area of preferential trade with Imperial Preference, would not my right hon. Friend agree that it is madness, and contrary to Conservative principles and promises, to accept a permanent straitjacket on our fiscal freedom, already limited by G. A. T. T.? Has not this become an urgent matter, since President Eisenhower has sent a message to Congress asking for authorisation for the United States to join the O. T. C.? If that happens, is it not the case that the United Kingdom ratification becomes effective?
    Sir D. Eccles: I think that my hon. Friend is mistaken. On the whole, I think that membership of G. A. T. T. is in our interests, and certainly the other Commonwealth countries show no signs of wishing to get out of it.

    Prices (Petrol Taxation)
    Mr. Lewisasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that traders and business organisations
    1728
    raised their prices at the time of the Suez crisis on the ground that the 1s. petrol tax increased their distribution costs; and what action he proposes to take, by the imposition of price control or otherwise, to ensure that all prices are restored to their former level now that the 1s. petrol tax has been abolished.
    Sir D. Eccles: I am not aware of any widespread increase in the prices of goods as a direct result of the temporary tax on petrol. Action by Her Majesty's Government is not called for.
    Mr. Lewis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he is about the only person who is not aware of it? Will he ask his wife or any housewife? He will be told that, almost immediately the Is. tax was imposed, every type of distributor increased the cost, and every type of article that a housewife buys went up in price. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, take some action to reduce prices to the pre-Suez figures, if I give him facts and figures relating to the increases?
    Sir D. Eccles: I shall be interested in the hon. Member's facts and figures. His remarks are certainly not borne out by the Index of Retail Prices.
    Dame Florence Horsbrugh: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many housewives have not found the statement made by the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis) correct?

    Metric System
    Mr. Owenasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that India has introduced the metric system; and, in view of the growing tendency of Commonwealth countries to favour this system and the effect on Commonwealth trade, whether he will now give further consideration to the recommendations contained in the Report of the Hodgson Committee.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. F. J. Erroll): I am keeping in touch with developments. I cannot add to previous statements that Her Majesty's Government are not prepared to proceed with the recommendation that the imperial system of weights and measures should be abolished in favour of the metric system.
    Mr. Owen: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the House has now been waiting for many months for an opportunity to discuss the recommendations in that Report? Surely the House is entitled to have that opportunity, in view of those recommendations.
    Mr. Erroll: There are a number of opportunities for a private Member to raise the subject if he wishes.

    U.S.A. Wheat (Sale to Brazil)
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the recent agreement under which the United States of America has sold wheat to Brazil for payment spread over forty years; and what representations he proposes to make, in conjunction with other contracting parties, against this violation of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.
    Sir D. Eccles: I am aware of this Agreement, which provides that most of the proceeds from the sale of this wheat are to be invested in Brazil. It is the sum invested which is to be repaid over forty years. Such an arrangement is not contrary to the provisions of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.
    Mr. Russell: Would my right hon. Friend not agree that, although it is not contrary to the letter of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, it is contrary to its spirit, and that representations should be made to the United States to stop this kind of practice?
    Sir D. Eccles: I think that the trade is manifestly to the advantage of Brazil, and I should think that our representations would have no effect.

    Manufactures (Exports)
    Mr. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the United Kingdom's share of the world's exports of manufactured goods in 1956; and what was the corresponding figure for 1937 or 1938.
    Sir D. Eccles: The United Kingdom's share of the world's exports of manufactures was 21·9 per cent. in 1937 and is provisionally estimated at 19·0 per cent. in 1956.
    Mr. Russell: What does my right hon. Friend propose to do to remedy this
    1730
    continual decline in our share of world markets? Does he not think that our whole economic policy with reference to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade needs looking at, with a view to seeing whether this trade cannot be increased instead of being reduced?
    Sir D. Eccles: What matters, of course, is the balance of payments. I think chat my hon. Friend will also notice that the rest of the world is increasing in population rather faster than we are. Provided that we keep a share which results in a good balance of payments, I think that that is what we are after.
    Mr. Jay: Does the right hon. Gentleman expect this percentage to go on falling?
    Hon. Members: Of course he does.
    Sir D. Eccles: I cannot say.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Unestablished Civil Servants (Retirement Gratuities)
    Mr. Gibsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make a statement on the matter of retirement gratuities to the unestablished staff in the Civil Service; and whether he will make any improvement retrospective at least to the date of the Royal Commission's Report.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft): I recently received a deputation on this matter from the Staff Side of the Civil Service National Whitley Council. Having considered their representations very carefully, I have told them that I hope before very long to look again at the possibility of improving these gratuities. I can say no more at present.
    Mr. Gibson: Does the Chancellor not realise that that is a very unsatisfactory answer? I am sure that he must be aware that the Royal Commission recommended that something should be done for these unestablished staffs in Government service. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a very large number of them and that, in view of the possible changes in Government employment, large numbers of them may become redundant in the next few months? Will

    1731
    he have another look at the matter and at least treat these men, who have given very loyal service to the State for many years, as well as other people have been treated?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I will certainly keep the matter under consideration. In fact, it would require legislation.

    Purchase Tax (Pottery)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer his estimate of the annual yield of the reduced Purchase Tax on pottery; and for what purpose this tax has been retained.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: About £2¾ million: like other household goods pottery must continue to make a contribution to the revenue.
    Mr. Swingler: Whilst not wishing the Chancellor to commit himself completely at this stage, may I ask whether he is not aware that the incidence of this tax has been wholly bad in its result? Is he aware that it has not stimulated pottery exports and that it has caused unemployment and short-time working to spread? Why do good by halves? Why not go the whole hog and abolish the tax?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: There is always an attractive case for abolishing any tax, but some contribution must be made from this source.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Is the right hon. Gentleman taking steps to ensure that the reduction in this tax is passed on to the consumer—the purchaser?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: If the housewife does not find it passed on in one shop, I recommend her to try another.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Is the main purpose of the tax to produce revenue or to reduce consumption?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The main purpose of Purchase Tax generally is that it is an important contribution to revenue.

    Surtax Payers (Tax Reliefs)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer his estimate of the number of Surtax payers who will benefit in personal tax reliefs from his Budget proposals.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: About 335,000.
    Mr. Swingler: When the Chancellor chose to give the greatest benefit of his Budget to the smallest and richest section of the community, did he take into account public opinion? Is he not aware that in a Gallup Poll 91 per cent. of all voters chose as first priority the relief of pensioners?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I took into account what I thought was best for the economy.

    Ballet
    Sir H. Butcherasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what financial purposes he recognises ballet as a fine art; and for what financial purposes he does not so recognise it.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The point which I think my hon. Friend has in mind is a legal one, which it is for the courts, not for me, to decide.

    Television Licence (Duty)
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will exempt old-age pensioners from the £1 extra duty on the combined television and sound licence.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: No, Sir.
    Mr. Davies: Why not? In view of the reliefs which the Chancellor has given, and which he has stated go to 330,000 people, how does he expect these old-age pensioners to pay, if they are single, two weeks of their pension money for a television licence? How does he expect the million old-age pensioners who are on National Assistance to pay this additional tax, making £4 a year to meet the licence for their television sets? Has he no consideration at all for old-age pensioners?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: No doubt the hon. Member will have an opportunity in later debates to develop that point, but if someone can pay 56 guineas for a television set, in general they will be able to pay the extra 4½ d. a week towards the licence.
    Mr. Davies: Does the right hon. Gentleman not appreciate that in most cases old-age pensioners have the set given to them by generous relations but they have to meet the cost of the licence themselves?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: There would be difficulty in singling out television sets which had been the subject of a gift. This is a matter better dealt with in debate than in question and answer.
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the additional £1 extra duty imposed on the combined television and sound licence, he will permit payment of the annual total in half-yearly instalments.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: No, Sir. The cost of collection would be much higher and the half-yearly payments would have to be bigger to cover it.
    Mr. Davies: Why did the right hon. Gentleman not think of that before? Does he not appreciate that it is not easy for those in the lower-income groups to find £4 at one go to meet the cost of this licence? Does he not understand the position in which the majority of people live?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I did think of it, and that is why I did not adopt the hon Member's suggestion.

    Income Tax
    Mrs. L. Jegerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much it would cost to give all registered blind people who are in normal employment a special Income Tax allowance of £100, in accordance with the recommendation of the Royal Commission on Taxation.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: It is impossible to give a precise figure as no information is available about the incomes or personal allowances of blind people in employment but the cost would probably be between £500,000 and £1 million.
    Mrs. Jeger: Is the Chancellor aware that in the evidence submitted to the Royal Commission it was suggested that between 5,000 and 6,000 people were involved? In view of the comparatively small cost, would he not look favourably on this recommendation as giving encouragement to these very courageous people who are trying to hold down normal jobs and are thereby incurring special expenditure?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I agree about the courage shown by many of these people who suffer from disability. But the Royal
    1734
    Commission's Report went rather further than blind people. It covers all disabled and it raises considerable difficulty, which again I think we shall probably be discussing later.
    Mr. Mossasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of tax payable by a married couple with one child on an income of £600 in 1951 and on an equivalent income in 1956.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: A married man with one child and an earned income of £600 in 1951 paid tax, at 1951– 52 rates of £54 5s. 0d. or approximately 9 per cent. of income. Assuming that his income increased at the same rate as the Consumer Price Index he would have earned about £710 in 1956, the tax on which would have been £43 2s. 6d. or 6 per cent. of gross income.
    Mr. Moss: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the nominal reduction in the incidence of direct taxation is substantially greater than the real reduction, and that it is to some extent misleading when the Financial Secretary to the Treasury takes the nominal income in 1951 and the same nominal income today and judges the incidence of taxation in that way?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The great thing is that the taxes should keep on going down.

    Entertainments Duty (Cinemas, Rural Areas)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many cinemas he estimates will benefit from his proposal to raise the population for the rural area exemption limit from 2,000 to 3,000.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Between 40 and 50.
    Mrs. White: As this is the only gesture made by the Chancellor towards the small cinemas, does he not think it is rather inadequate, and has he taken into account the possibility of increasing the population density as well as the total number in the area?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I think it is a contribution to include genuinely rural areas, but if we extend it much further we shall get away from rural areas into small urban districts as well, which is not the main purpose of this exemption.

    Gross National Product (Direct Taxation)
    Mr. Mossasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proportion of the gross national product has been taken by the Government in direct taxation in every year since 1951.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The proportion of the gross national product taken in direct taxes fell from 16·4 per cent. in 1951 to 13·9 per cent. in 1956. With permission I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I expect some further reduction in 1957.
    Following is the information:

    Per cent.

    1951

    …

    …

    …

    …

    16·4

    1952

    …

    …

    …

    …

    16·6

    1953

    …

    …

    …

    …

    15·2

    1954

    …

    …

    …

    …

    14·5

    1955

    …

    …

    …

    …

    14·8

    1956

    …

    …

    …

    …

    13·9

    These figures are derived from the Preliminary Estimates of National Income and Expenditure 1951 to 1956 (Cmnd. 123). Direct taxes are taken to be those described in this White Paper as taxes on net income and taxes on capital.

  HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Clean Air Council
    Mr. Moyleasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is now in a position to announce the names of the Chairman and members of the Clean Air Council with a view to implementing the provisions of the Clean Air Act, 1956.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Mr. Henry Brooke): The Act provides that the Minister shall be the Chairman of the Clean Air Council. I hope to be able shortly to announce the names of the other members of the Council.
    Mr. Moyle: May I ask the Minister whether he will not express the same sense of urgency in connection with the formation of this important Council, particularly when he himself is chairman, and show the same zeal in this case as he has done in connection with the Rent Bill?
    Mr. Brooke: A number of invitations have already gone out. The only reason why I do not want to make a further
    1736
    statement today is that I should like to be able to announce the full membership at one time.

    Unmade Roads, Benfleet
    Mr. Braineasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if, in view of the large number of unmade roads in the Benfleet urban district and the difficulties of drainage peculiar to that area, he will give sympathetic and early consideration to the authorisation of loan consent in respect of the making up of such roads where deposits have been duly made in accordance with the New Streets Act, 1951, and petitions have been received from the frontagers concerned.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. J. R. Bevins): Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend believes that the Council can be relied on, while the present need for strict economy continues, to put forward only proposals where work is needed urgently; and accordingly he does not anticipate any difficulty.
    Mr. Braine: Do I take it from that reply that the special difficulties of the Benfleet district are recognised by the Ministry, and that in all cases where petitions have been presented by frontagers, deposits paid, and application made in the proper way for loan sanction by the local authority, there will be no delay?
    Mr. Bevnis: Yes, Sir, the special difficulties of the Benfleet Urban District Council are recognised by my right hon. Friend, and I assure him that applications for loan sanction either have been or are in process of being approved.

    Temporary Houses, Wood Green
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what reply he has sent to the letter from the Wood Green Council asking him to consider allowing local authorities to retain temporary houses on open spaces for a further period beyond that specified in the Housing Repairs and Rents Act, 1954.
    Mr. Bevins: My right hon. Friend has informed the council that he would be averse to any further extension of the period for which temporary houses are

    1737
    allowed to occupy land taken from open space; and that he has no amending legislation in mind.
    Mrs. Butler: Does the Parliamentary Secretary not feel that it is unreasonable that local authorities whose temporary houses are not on public open spaces are being encouraged by the Minister to purchase those houses, to use them for housing old people and in other ways, whilst authorities such as Wood Green are being compelled to dismantle perfectly good temporary houses when there is still an acute housing shortage?
    Mr. Bevins: No, Sir; with respect to the hon. Member, the two propositions are rather different. This was a temporary expedient, and we do not want open spaces to be permanently occupied by temporary houses. I think the hon. Lady will agree that the majority of the houses in Wood Green still have about seven or eight years to run.

    Co-operative Housing
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he has considered the chapter on Cooperative Housing in the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe publication, European Housing Progress and Policies in 1955 ", and whether he will make a statement on the possible increased development of co-operative housing in this country.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Yes, my attention has been drawn to this publication. While the initiative must rest with those wanting to establish co-operative groups, I am prepared to encourage any housing association development of this kind.
    Mrs. Butler: Has the Minister noted from the report that co-operative housing in many countries of Western and Northern Europe has increased considerably since the war, that in Norway and Sweden it has doubled, and that this is clearly the result of Government policy in those countries to encourage co-operative housing? Will he take a similar initiative in this country?
    Mr. Brooke: I thought that I had given a friendly reply to the original Question. If the hon. Lady will further read that publication, as I have done, she will see it pointed out there that co-operative housing projects have developed more
    1738
    widely in countries which have made less provision for public housing than this country has done.

    Essex Development Plan
    Mr. B. Harrisonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he has yet approved the Essex Development Plan; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. H. Brooke: I have nearly completed my consideration of the plan but, as explained in reply to my hon. Friend on 26th February, the maps will require revision before the plan can be formally approved. Lists of corrections and proposed modifications to most of the town maps have already been given to the county council, whose officers have started the revision; but this is bound to take some time.
    Mr. Harrison: Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, and as he probably remembers that in his last Answer he said that it would be a matter of a few weeks, may I ask him whether he could not expedite it, since the entire future planning of Essex is held up until this plan is approved by himself?
    Mr. Brooke: I did not say that my formal approval could be given within a few weeks, but I pointed out in my previous Answer that the maps would require revision in the light of my decisions. I am extremely anxious to get this plan formally approved as soon as practicable, and I am doing all in my power.
    Mr. Harrison: I thank my right Eon. Friend.
    Mr. Snow: When this development plan is produced, may we assume that the Minister will have consulted the Board of Trade, so that there will not be reproduced in Essex what has occurred in Surrey, namely, confusion about the granting of industrial development certificates?
    Mr. Brooke: This Question refers exclusively to Essex.

    Town Development Schemes (Grants)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware of the difficulties being experienced by large cities that are unable to

    1739
    accommodate their increasing populations within their boundaries and where the surrounding areas are willing to assist by taking them in, but are unable financially to provide the houses, roads, and sewers because of the smallness of the grant and heavy interest charges; and what steps are being taken to deal with this problem.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Exchequer grants towards schemes for relieving congestion in the big cities are by no means small. They amount to 50 per cent. of the cost of water and sewerage works, in addition to a subsidy of £24 per house per annum plus in some cases a further £8 at the outset. Several local authorities have in recent months agreed to undertake schemes for this purpose, and I believe that negotiations now proceeding will result in further agreements.
    Mr. Awbery: Does the Minister realise the difficulties of the local authorities if they have not the land to develop for housing, and the over-spill population is going outside the city? The area outside is prepared to accommodate them if the Minister will help by making a grant and reducing interest on the loan. Will he do that to help in those cases?
    Mr. Brooke: As I have said, the grants are already generous and the receiving authority may get further help from the exporting authority, and also the county council concerned in the receiving district.
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask the Minister whether, in addition to the high cost of interest charges referred to in the Question, he has really examined the high cost of land, and is it not a fact that this is one of the biggest obstructions of all?
    Mr. Brooke: So far as I am aware, that is certainly not an obstruction to town development.
    Mr. Mitchison: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think there are some places, which would be useful in relieving the problem of the lack of building space in the big towns, that do not at present attract the subsidies he mentioned, and that he might reconsider this matter having regard to that shortage?
    Mr. Brooke: If the hon. and learned Gentleman would like to put any specific cases of that kind to me, I will certainly
    1740
    consider them, but I think that the hon. Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Awbery) was raising the general question as to whether further help could be given with town development schemes for overspill, and I pointed out some of the possibilities.

    Oil Refinery Project, Hook
    Dr. Bennettasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what stage has been reached in the negotiations by the Caltex Company or Regent Oil Company for the establishment of a small oil refinery at Hook, Warsash, Hampshire, in the light of undertakings given by his predecessors that a public inquiry would be held.
    Mr. Bevins: I understand that no application for planning permission has yet been made. If one is made it will be referred to my right hon. Friend and a public inquiry will be held.
    Dr. Bennett: As this is a matter of considerable importance locally, can my hon. Friend give an assurance that the scheme will not slip through without proper scrutiny?
    Mr. Bevins: Yes. A direction has already been given that any such proposals will be called in and a public inquiry held.

    Land Transactions (Gosforth Council)
    Mr. McKayasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government (1) whether he has fully investigated the question of the Gosforth Council acquiring land from the National Coal Board for housing purposes, then selling the land to private builders and using the housing revenue account to compensate the National Coal Board; and if he will make a statement;
    (2) in regard to the land transactions between the Gosforth Council and the National Coal Board, from what source under the terms of the agreement compensation was payable to the Board.
    Mr. H. Brooke: These transactions have been perfectly regular and straightforward. Some years ago the council bought for housing purposes land in which the National Coal Board had extensive leasehold interests. Payment of compensation for those interests is part

    1741
    of the cost of acquisition and is, therefore, a charge on the housing revenue account. Some of the land thus acquired proved to be surplus to the council's requirements and was, with the consent of my predecessor, recently sold to a private builder. The money from the sale would of course be credited to the account, and can therefore be used, with my consent, towards payment of the outstanding liability to the Board. I have given my consent to the application of a first instalment of this money to this purpose.
    Mr. Mitchison: Has this reluctance of the Gosforth Council to build council houses on the land anything to do with the withdrawal of housing subsidies?
    Mr. Brooke: That is a different question. So far as I know, this was an agreed policy.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Industrial Relations and Trade Union Law
    Mr. W. Yatesasked the Minister of Labour, bearing in mind the importance of the stability of Great Britain's economy and export trade as they affect the prospects of full employment, if he will consider recommending the appointment of a Royal Commission to examine and report on all aspects of industrial relations and trade union law and practice, and make recommendations.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service (Mr, Robert Carr): My right hon. Friend would not wish to exclude any solution that would help towards a better understanding in industry, but is not convinced that a Royal Commission is the best method of achieving it.
    Mr. Yates: While thanking my hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask him whether he realises that there are many people in this country who will find that Answer exceedingly unsatisfactory and a great disappointment?
    Mr. Carr: In the end, the results which we all desire depend on co-operation and agreement in industry. The Government cannot compel or direct, but we can guide, and we intend to take every opportunity of doing so.
    Mr. W. Yates: On a point of order. In view of that reply, may I, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, raise the matter on the Adjournment?

  SCOTLAND

    Herring Shoals (Location by Helicopter)
    Sir R. Boothbyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will arrange for an experiment to be carried out for the location of herring shoals in the North Sea by means of helicopters.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): I am considering, in consultation with the Herring Industry Board, proposals which have been put forward by a private firm for a trial in the summer.
    Sir R. Boothby: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it is absolutely vital that herring should be found in the North Sea this year? Otherwise, the herring industry may pack up altogether. My right hon. Friend must neglect no possible method— by air, on the sea, and, if necessary, under the sea—of finding, them.
    Mr. Ross: Will the right hon. Gentleman, after he has tried this out—and we hope that it will be a success—use the same method to locate the missing members of the Scottish Grand Committee?

    Forth Road Bridge
    Sir W. Anstruther-Grayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what will be the first sign visible to the public that the Forth road bridge is under construction; and when this sign will appear.
    Mr. Maclay: I am advised that the first work on the bridge itself will be the construction of the suspension chain anchorages and the piers and, as I said in reply to a supplementary question by the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. Hamilton) on 29th January, I hope that it will begin in the summer of 1958.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this "doubting Thomas" attitude of a prominent supporter of the Government will create some

    1743
    alarm among the public? Is not this a case where some concrete evidence is really necessary?
    Mr. Maclay: I am quite certain that my hon. and gallant Friend is no "doubting Thomas," but merely enthusiastic.
    Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that many people throughout Scotland are looking forward to giving the warmest welcome to this sign appearing, and that I was anxious that they should have every opportunity of being present to see it?

    Fishing Boats (Grants)
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will introduce legislation to provide grants for shore-based owners of vessels to replace their diesel engines.
    Mr. Maclay: I would refer the hon. Lady to the Answer given to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Sir W. Anstruther-Gray) on 26th March.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Is the Secretary of State aware that there is still a demand for such provisions, and that it would benefit trawlers, liners and seine net vessels? As the principle of conversion from coal-burning to oil-fired and dieselengined vessels has been accepted, could he not give consideration to this matter again?
    Mr. Maclay: As my noble Friend the Joint Under-Secretary explained on a previous occasion, the greatest care was given in our consideration of this matter and I am afraid that I can hold out no hope of any change in the decision at this time.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Does not the Secretary of State realise that this matter has been hanging fire for far too long? He has given evasive answers on other occasions, as did his predecessor. Is it not about time that a comprehensive Bill was introduced for the modernisation of the Scottish fishing fleets?
    Mr. Maclay: The hon. and learned Gentleman is wrong. The decision has not been hanging fire. The decision has been made, as I have explained.

  NUCLEAR TESTS
  Mr. Beswickasked the Prime Minister what was the distance of observers from the explosion used as a premise for the Government view that it is now possible to detonate a hydrogen bomb without detection.
  Mr. Masonasked the Prime Minister (1) if he will state the technical reasons which make it impossible to detect a thermo-nuclear test explosion;
  (2) what new techniques have been developed which make it impossible to ascertain the facts about a thermo-nuclear test from a distance of 1,000 miles.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I cannot add to what I said in the debate two weeks ago, that if a deliberate attempt were made to run a test explosion in such a way as to avoid detection it would almost certainly be successful. As regards the techniques which make this concealment possible, it would not be in the public interest to add to what I said in the debate.
  Mr. Beswick: Does not the Prime Minister agree that it is palpably incorrect to say that some explosions cannot be detected, since one can hear any noise, provided that one is near enough to it? Is he aware that well-qualified people have worked out that a network of 400 observation posts over the globe could detect any detonation, even of the old-fashioned type which I saw way back in 1946? In the light of that fact, will he drop this alibi as an excuse for not trying to get agreement on the abolition of tests?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir; I will do my best to answer any technical questions that are put to me, but I must ask the House to forgive me if I do not try to do so on supplementary questions. In a prepared speech, or to Questions which are put down, I try to give an answer based on the advice given to me by my advisers. Since I am not a scientist, indeed, I am almost the only person in the House who is not a scientist—[Laughter.]—I do not feel that it is quite fair to the House, or fair to me, to try to do otherwise. If any Questions are put down, and, in conformity with the public interest, I can answer them, I always try to do so, or to do

  1745
  so in prepared speeches, but I hope that I may be excused, because sooner or later, if I get into this range of supplementaries, I am sure to make a mistake.
  Mr. Mason: I hope that the Prime Minister will make quite certain that he is not misleading the House on this matter. He will remember that his predecessor, Sir Anthony Eden, did mislead the House when he suggested that we could test a nuclear device without there being an explosion. The Prime Minister must be very careful that he is not misleading the House on this matter. If it is true that a "clean" bomb has been developed, could not the Prime Minister give some thought to getting international agreement on the lines of banning polution of the atmosphere by strontium 90 and other lethal particles following all nuclear bomb tests?
  The Prime Minister: The last part of what the hon. Member said obviously raises important points, and if he will put down a Question, I will do my best to answer it.
  Mr. Stokes: I do not know why the Prime Minister makes so much mystery about this. Is not the truth of the matter that one of the two reasons to which the Prime Minister referred the other day is that while it would be made aware to the world that an explosion had taken place, nobody would really know what the explosion was? I at least know about that and any man who studies it can, if he takes the trouble.
  The Prime Minister: Even that supplementary question makes me still more cautious.
  Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister whether the Government will initiate discussions now with the Governments of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the United States of America on the question of securing an international agreement for the banning, as opposed to limitation, of nuclear explosions.
  The Prime Minister: The problem of banning nuclear tests is included in the various disarmament proposals now being discussed with representatives of these Governments in the United Nations Disarmament Sub-Committee.
  Mr. Henderson: Did not the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary recently indicate that they were seeking to achieve an agreement for the limitation of tests? What I am asking the Prime Minister is whether the Government would now take the lead in stating that they would be prepared to seek agreement to ban tests without waiting for a general disarmament treaty. Is not the Prime Minister's attitude influenced by the recent statement of the United States Government that they would be prepared to agree to the banning of all future nuclear weapon production as from March, 1958?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned Member has raised an important point. On Monday, 1st April, I gave the House as full an account as I could, and I think that on the next day the Secretary of State answered Questions on this matter. Tomorrow I will try to take the matter a little further and see whether I can give a more comprehensive account than I was able to give then.
  Mr. F. M. Bennett: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that in order to find out exactly what the Opposition want in regard to these tests we shall have to wait until their leader returns from his present trip abroad?

  CHRISTMAS ISLAND (BRITISH ADMINISTRATION)
  Mr. Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the claim of the United States of America to the ownership of Christmas Island; and what steps he intends to take to clarify this issue before the explosion of the British hydrogen bomb.
  The Prime Minister: The United States Government claim sovereignty over Christmas Island, which has been under British administration for many years as part of the Gilbert and Ellice Islands Colony. Her Majesty's Government have informed the United States Government that the action which they are now taking does not in any way prejudice the claims of either Government.
  Mr. Hamilton: Is it not rather reprehensible that we should be exploding this weapon over territory the ownership of

  1747
  which is in some dispute? If it subsequently turns out that this is American property, will Her Majesty's Government consider giving appropriate compensation to the United States Government?
  The Prime Minister: In the first place, I do not think that this difficulty is likely to be serious. In the second place, the bomb is not being exploded over that territory.

  DOCTORS' AND DENTISTS' REMUNERATION (INTERIM ADJUSTMENT)
  Mrs. L. Jegerasked the Prime Minister whether he is yet able to make a statement on the interim award to doctors and dentists.
  Mr. Liptonasked the Prime Minister if he will now make a further statement on the interim adjustment of pay for general practitioners in the National Health Service.
  The Prime Minister: I would ask the hon. Members to await the statement which I shall be making at the end of Questions.
  Mrs. L. Jegerasked the Prime Minister when the Royal Commission on the remuneration of doctors and dentists started work and from whom evidence has so far been taken.
  The Prime Minister: I am informed that the Royal Commission held its first meeting on 13th March, the day after I announced its appointment, and that it has already held six meetings. I understand that it has not yet received any formal evidence but has held preliminary and informal discussions with representatives of the consultants, the dental profession, the Bar, architects, chartered surveyors, accountants and different branches of the engineering profession. Representatives of the consultants and the dentists made it clear at that stage that their presence did not commit their organisations to giving evidence.
  Mrs. Jeger: Is it not rather significant that in that long list of people who have already had discussions with the Commission, no mention is made of representatives of the general practitioners? What steps has the Prime Minister taken to ensure that the terms of reference of
  1748
  the Royal Commission are such that representatives of the B.M.A. feel able to take part in these important discussions?
  The Prime Minister: Perhaps that point might be raised after the statement that I am going to make.
  Mr. Woodburn: Will the Prime Minister make an announcement of an interim advance to doctors in the meantime?
  The Prime Minister: I shall make a statement at the end of Questions.

  NUCLEAR REACTORS (FUEL SUPPLIES)
  Mr. Warbeyasked the Prime Minister what precise arrangements have been made to assure to prospective purchasers of British-made nuclear reactors an adequate supply of nuclear fuels, including enriched fuels.
  The Prime Minister: The United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority is prepared to supply natural uranium fuel elements for reactors made in the United Kingdom. The graphite-moderated gas-cooled type of reactor, as at present designed, does not require enriched fuel. The availability of enriched uranium is limited by the capacity of the Authority's diffusion plant at Capenhurst and by the other calls upon it, but a part of the total output has been set aside to provide fuel for reactors sold abroad of a type requiring enriched fuel.
  Mr. Warbey: The latter part of the information is welcome, but is the Prime Minister aware that other countries, such as Japan, are very interested in reactors using partially enriched fuel and that unless they can get assured supplies from this country they will buy them from the United States? Can the Prime Minister say whether the arrangements for British export production are such as to be able to satisfy all possible demands?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir, as I said in the reply, the availability of enriched uranium is limited by the capacity of the diffusion plant at Capenhurst and by the other calls made upon it. I went on to say that part of the total output is set aside to provide fuel for any

  1749
  type of reactor which might be sold abroad and which required this type of fuel.

  HYDROGEN BOMB TESTS (SHIPPING)
  Mr. S. Silvermanasked the Prime Minister what steps he will take to restrain peaceful shipping sailing the high seas from entering specific areas of the high seas during the period of the forthcoming hydrogen bomb tests; to what extent he is prepared to use force in exercising such restraint; for how long after the last test the prohibition will be enforced; and what forces will be charged with this task.
  The Prime Minister: Public warning has been given that a defined area is to be considered dangerous to shipping from 1st March to 1st August, 1957. Early warning will be given if it should become necessary to extend the latter date. Aircraft of the task force conducting the operation will search within the area for any vessel which might inadvertently have entered it and be in danger. If any such vessel is sighted warning leaflets in several languages will be dropped advising the vessel to leave the danger area at once.
  Mr. Silverman: I acknowledge the Prime Minister's courtesy in answering this Question himself instead of leaving it to the Minister of Supply, but may I point out that the Question asks what the Government's attitude would be in the event of vessels—not inadvertently, but in exercise of their right to navigate freely upon the high seas—nevertheless insisting upon entering the warned-off area? Do the Government propose to use force to prevent them?
  The Prime Minister: This is a hypothetical question. I hope that nobody will be foolish enough to ignore this advice.
  Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: Does the Prime Minister claim that under international law he is entitled to exclude ships sailing the high seas from going over this area?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that I am really an expert in international law any more than in silence, but if the hon. and learned Gentleman will put down that question I will try to answer it.
  Mr. Gaitskell: The Prime Minister must have given some consideration to the important hypothetical question put by my hon. Friend. What are the Government going to do if vessels get into this area?
  The Prime Minister: I have given consideration to that question, but I am entitled to ask for notice of a specific question on international law— as I do.
  Mr. Silverman: It is not a hypothetical question. Is it not the precise effect of Question No. 54, to which I should like an answer?
  The Prime Minister: I still say that I hope nobody will be foolish enough to ignore this advice.
  Mr. Silverman: Will the Prime Minister do the House the courtesy of bringing his mind to bear upon the question that he is asked? Question No. 54 asks whether he has taken, or proposes to take, the advisory opinion of the International Court at The Hague as to how far is it proper, under international law, to interfere in this way with the free navigation of the seas by making them dangerous to peaceful shipping.
  The Prime Minister: I cannot answer Question No. 54 until the hon. Member asks it.
  Mr. Silverman: I have asked it.
  Mr. Speaker: Question No. 54.
  Mr. S. Silvermanasked the Prime Minister what steps he has taken to obtain an advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice at The Hague respecting the propriety under international law of rendering large areas of the high seas for substantial periods dangerous to peaceful shipping sailing the high seas upon its lawful occasions.
  The Prime Minister: None, Sir.
  Mr. Silverman: Are we to infer from the Prime Minister's Answer that the Government took no steps to obtain such an opinion because they believed it to be unnecessary and believed that they are entitled to do this? Would it then be right to infer that in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government any nation in the world can, at any time, at its own option and without any breach of international law, do anything for its own purposes anywhere upon the high seas?
  The Prime Minister: That would be a wrong inference. The Question asked what steps had been taken to obtain an advisory opinion, to which I replied, "None". The reason is that it is not open to individual States to seek advisory opinions of the International Court.
  Mr. S. Silvermanasked the Prime Minister with what foreign countries Her Majesty's Government have concluded agreements by which ships of those countries will be restrained from sailing upon any part of the high seas during any period in respect of which Her Majesty's Government have notified their intention to conduct experimental tests of hydrogen, bomb explosions.
  The Prime Minister: None, Sir. The temporary use of areas outside territorial waters for gunnery or bombing practice has, as such, never been considered a violation of the principle of freedom of navigation on the high seas and hence no special agreement is called for. The announcement of a temporary danger area on the high seas is made in the interests of safety. In choosing the site for the tests Her Majesty's Government pay full attention to the importance of avoiding interference with regular shipping routes.
  Mr. Silverman: Is the net effect of the Prime Minister's Answers to the last few questions that Her Majesty's Government consider that they are within their rights under international law in doing this without obtaining an advisory opinion, and that they have made no agreement with any other State which might give them any right which might be doubtful? Does it further follow that any other State would be entitled at any time to do the same thing?
  The Prime Minister: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman prepared his supplementary question before he heard my original Answer. We do not consider that we are in any breach of international law and, as I say, the temporary use of an area outside territorial waters for gunnery and bombing practice has never been considered a violation of the principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas.
  Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas: Does not the Prime Minister recognise that there is a
  1752
  marked difference between an occasional bombing practice on the high seas and a hydrogen bomb test which will pollute vast areas for a considerable period? Secondly, do I understand from his Answer that the right hon. Gentleman now holds that under international law he is entitled to exclude shipping from the high seas? Has he in fact received advice to that effect?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir, I do not dispute anything except to the extent of what I have said. Perhaps in the debate either today or tomorrow the hon. and learned Gentleman will explain exactly what is the point of view of his own Front Bench on the matter.
  Several Hon. Members—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister.
  Mr. Silverman: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Should I be in order in claiming leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 to call attention to the intention of Her Majesty's Government, without obtaining any authority or without agreement with other States, to proceed to make experiments which would be dangerous not merely to peaceful shipping but to humanity and the world at large?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member should rightly bring his Motion to the Table, but I can inform him, if he will permit it—I think it will save time—that I cannot accept such a Motion as coming within the terms of Standing Order No. 9. It is not urgent, in the sense that there are ample opportunities for debating it, and I do not see that it could possibly be brought within the four corners of the Standing Order.
  Mr. Silverman: With respect, is this not clearly a matter of administrative action and not one of legislation? On that account is it not urgent, in that the Government are proceeding with activities now? Is it not, therefore, something which, if we are to restrain it, can be restrained only by urgent interference by this House?
  Mr. Speaker: I think that it could be debated this afternoon during the defence debate.

DOCTORS' AND DENTISTS' REMUNERATION (INTERIM ADJUSTMENT)
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a statement on the remuneration of doctors and dentists.
Before the Royal Commission was appointed I explained that its appointment did not preclude an interim adjustment in advance of and without prejudice to its recommendations. An adjustment was made in the remuneration of the junior hospital staff, both medical and dental, at the beginning of this month, when their remuneration was increased by 10 per cent. In announcing this increase, I said that we were considering what should be done by way of an interim adjustment for the other doctors and dentists covered by the Commission's terms of reference.
The Government have now decided to increase the basic remuneration of senior hospital medical and dental staff including consultants and specialists and all dentists engaged in general dental services by 5 per cent. from 1st May next, and from the same date to add 5 per cent. to the aggregate net remuneration of general practitioners—that is, remuneration after the deduction of practice expenses. We propose to consult representatives of the profession as to the best method of distributing this sum between individual practitioners.
In the meantime, the Royal Commission has been asked to regard its work as a matter of urgency and has, in fact, already, I understand, held six meetings. I hope that the letters I have exchanged with the then President of the Royal College of Physicians, together with the statement issued by the Chairman of the Royal Commission will reassure those who have expressed concern about the terms of reference.
I hope now that all concerned will turn their thoughts to the task of working out a satisfactory basis for future remuneration, and for keeping it under review.
Dr. Summerskill: May I ask the Prime Minister four short questions? First, what was the basis used to arrive at this award? Secondly, why has this decision
1754
been made in an arbitrary fashion without negotiation with the doctors? Thirdly, why has the decision been made without any consideration of the findings of the Royal Commission? Fourthly, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the distribution from the central pool will be similar to that made in 1952?
The Prime Minister: It was always stated by the Government that we intended to make an interim award while the Commission was sitting. The 10 per cent. was given to the junior staff and now 5 per cent. is given to the general body. The reason this procedure is adopted is that the present dispute is on a matter of the interpretation of the Spens Report. Therefore, there could riot be any agreed basis for negotiation in the ordinary way. The object of the Commission, which is really an independent body, is to find and recommend what should be the basis of remuneration both now and in the future. As to the method of calculation, I do not know whether it is similar to that in 1952. In the case of the 10 per cent., it is as I have already stated. In the case of the 5 per cent. to certain senior hospital medical and dental staffs and the dentists engaged in the general service, and of the doctors in ordinary practice, it is by adding to the aggregate net remuneration; and then we propose to consult the doctors' organisations as to the best method of distributing this money.
Mr. Gaitskell: Can the Prime Minister say how much this will cost?
The Prime Minister: The whole?
Mr. Gaitskell: Yes.
The Prime Minister: The senior medical staff, about £1,200,000. The junior medical practitioners, £2,500,000. The general dental practitioners, £1,200,000, to which I should add a 10 per cent. increase to the junior hospital staff, which is £900,000.
Mrs. Jeger: Cannot the Prime Minister give us a better explanation of the basis of these calculations? Is he saying that he thought up 10 per cent. in his sleep one night, and that on another night he thought up 5 per cent.? What is the arithmetic behind a suggestion which provides the same increase for highly paid consultants as for the humbler and overworked general practitioners?
The Prime Minister: As I have explained, we appointed a Royal Commission because, in this case, there is a disagreement as to what should be the whole basis for calculating remuneration both now and in the future. I hope that this independent body, with terms of reference which I have explained to be very wide, will reach that basis. Meanwhile, since the Commission must take a considerable time—a substantial time—to make its report, it was thought right to make this advance. I hope and believe that it will be regarded on the whole as equitable and reasonable.
Mr. Woodburn: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what steps are to be taken to see that fairness is done to the assistants? In some parts of the country quite a lot of empire building is going on among doctors and assistants. The public would like to know that the assistants were to get proper treatment under these arrangements.
The Prime Minister: No doubt my colleague the Minister of Health will take that point into account in consultation with the doctors' representatives as to the methods of distribution. We shall certainly take account of the point that the right hon. Gentleman has made.
Mr. Lipton: How does the Prime Minister expect employers and workers to accept the principle of collective bargaining if he ignores this principle in dealing with the doctors' increment of pay? Is he aware that this contempt for established machinery is regarded as a very grave injustice by the medical profession?
The Prime Minister: I do not think that that is really quite fair. It is a prerequisite of any arbitration that there should be common agreement on what the arbitration has to be about. The difficulty here is disagreement about the interpretation of the Spens Report. The most practical way—I think there is general opinion in the country supporting this—is to get the most independent body we can—and I think we have in the Royal Commission a very good independent body—to try to reach an agreed basis from which, in future, these adjustments can be made without difficulty.
Mr. Shinwell: Now that the Prime Minister is in a generous mood, will he
1756
give consideration to the plight of hon. Members?
Mr. Speaker: Dr. Johnson.
Mr. Shinwell: May I have an answer to my question?
The Prime Minister: I will, of course, take note of what the right hon. Gentleman has said.
Dr. Johnson: At the risk of being repetitious, may I ask the Prime Minister whether he will press, or ask the Minister of Health to press, upon the medical organisation the necessity of bearing in made, in distributing this 5 per cent., that there is quite serious concern at the differences in remuneration among various practitioners within the same service, and that it will give this point very serious attention in the distribution of the extra sum?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. No. doubt my hon. Friend will, if necessary communicate with my right hon. Friend himself.
Mr. Blenkinsop: Can the Prime Minister assure us that at last the Minister of Health will have real power to carry out negotiations in this matter, and that he will not only take account of the position of assistants but of the position of doctors with smaller lists and will try to make a constructive settlement that will help to reduce the large lists of the richer practitioners?
The Prime Minister: It is not a question of negotiation but of consultation, and of how this interim award had better be distributed and applied. When we get the Royal Commission's Report I hope that we shall have a permanent solution of how the whole service will work in the future.
Dr. Stross: As a very important factor will be the speed at which the Royal Commission reports, can we have an assurance that its deliberations will not take more than eight or nine months from now?
The Prime Minister: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has asked that question. I have asked the Royal Commission to do its work speedily. I have every confidence in the chairman and the members. The Commission has already

1757
had six meetings, and I hope that every possible assistance will be given to the Royal Commission to conclude its task speedily.
Mr. Ramsden: In view of the businesslike way in which the Commission is proceeding—[HON. MEMBERS: "How do you know? "]—as is shown by the fact that it has already met six times in a very short time—has my right hon. Friend some hope that the doctors will, in these changed circumstances, modify their attitude towards the Commission? Will he make it quite clear, once and for all, that it will be within the competence of the Commission to have regard to the general relevance of the Spens Report in its consideration of the matter?
The Prime Minister: All these points of the competence of the Commission were cleared in the exchange of letters which took place. I think that this has been generally regarded as wise and satisfactory. On the question of the acceptance of the Commission, I can only repeat that I very much hope that everyone concerned will now turn his labours to the work of creating a satisfactory basis for the future remuneration and future management of the Health Service.
Mr. Lee: Now that the Prime Minister has pointed out that before one can have a successful arbitration it is necessary to have some sort of offer about which to arbitrate, will he make sure that a copy of his statement goes to the shipbuilding and engineering employers?
The Prime Minister: I did not say that we had to have some kind of offer, but some kind of basis. In this case, there was one interpretation which the doctors made and which the Government felt that they could not accept. Therefore, it was felt better to have an independent body to deal with the matter.

DEFENCE
3.47 p.m.
The Minister of Defence (Mr. Duncan Sandys): I beg to move,
That this House approves the Outline of Future Defence Policy set out in Command Paper No. 124.
I hope that the House will forgive the delay there has been in presenting this White Paper on Defence. The main reason is that the Government felt that what was needed on this occasion was not the usual annual statement, but a broad reappraisal of future defence policy. We have endeavoured, in the White Paper, to place before Parliament our conception of how Britain's defence system should evolve over the next five years. It is as a five-year plan that this White Paper should be looked at. I hope that it is in that way that the House will address itself to the matter.
The White Paper has had a generally favourable reception in this country. Abroad, after some initial doubts, it has, in the main, been received with understanding and a good deal of respect. Some people say that the policy in the White Paper is revolutionary; others say that there is nothing new about it. Both are perfectly correct. The policy in the White Paper embodies many ideas which, as hon. Members well know, have been on more than one occasion expressed in earlier defence debates in all quarters of the House, in the Press, and in the country generally.
What is new about the White Paper is not the ideas which it contains, but the Government's decision that the time has now come when it is right and safe to base decisions upon it. With all respect, I am sure that hon. Members will recognise that it is easier to give bold and far-sighted advice to the Government than it is for the Government to weigh up the risks, to study the timing and to take the responsibility for grave decisions which, if they turned out to be wrong or premature, might expose the country to unjustifiable dangers.
The policy which we submit to the House in the White Paper is founded on the recognition of two basic facts. The first is that, in present circumstances. it is impossible effectively to defend this

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country against an attack with hydrogen bombs. If I may, I will talk about "hydrogen bombs" rather than about "thermo-nuclear weapons". Naturally, I cover all the scientific derivatives.
The second basic fact on which this policy is based is the fact that, whether we like it or not, we cannot go on devoting such a large part of our resources—and, in particular, of manpower—to defence. Since it must now be accepted that adequate protection against all-out nuclear attack is impossible, we believe that the British people will agree that the available resources of the nation should be concentrated not upon preparations to wage war so much, as upon trying to prevent that catastrophe from ever happening.
That does not mean that we should abandon all efforts to minimise the consequences should the deterrent fail to prevent war. That is why the White Paper makes it clear that Civil Defence must remain an essential part of the defence plan. There will be no real safety in the world until there is disarmament. I think we are all agreed about that, but I think that most of us agree that nuclear disarmament by itself would be disastrous—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—since it would give decisive military superiority to Russia, which would always be able to maintain larger conventional forces.
The Government will continue to do everything in their power to promote universal and comprehensive disarmament. We do not despair of reaching agreement. During my visit to Rusia last summer I saw something of the vast programme of social and industrial work upon which the Soviet Government are engaged. With those immense schemes of domestic reconstruction on hand, it is hard to see how the Russians, any more than we, can have any interest in war—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—or any desire to go on spending so much of their substance upon military preparations. But unhappily, there reigns between East and West at present such complete mutual distrust that neither dares to lower its guard. Before we can hope to reach agreement on disarmament I believe that we must find ways of creating some measure of confidence. That. I am afraid, will not
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be easy, and will certainly take quite a time.
Meanwhile, we must recognise the grim fact that the only means which the free world possesses to protect itself against Communist aggression and domination is the power to threaten retaliation with nuclear weapons. For this protective power the free world at present depends almost entirely on the nuclear strength of the United States. While America, with her immense resources, is bound to remain the major partner, it is desirable that Britain should possess some element of nuclear deterrent power of her own. There is, I think, agreement on both sides of the House about that.
Mr. Harold Davies: The right hon. Gentleman must not accept that all the way round.
Mr. Sandys: I believe that there is agreement on both sides of the House about that.
Mr. Davies: There is not.
Mr. Sandys: The reason it is necessary was well set out in the resolution of the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party two years ago, in which this passage appeared and with which, I must say, I am in complete agreement:
"Hitherto, only the United States of America and the U.S.S.R. have possessed the hydrogen bomb. Labour believes that it is undesirable that Britain should be dependent on another country for this vital weapon. If we were our influence for peace would be lessened in the counsels of the world. It was for that reason that the Labour Government decided on the manufacture of the atom bomb and that we support the production of the hydrogen bomb in this country."
That was two years ago, but the attitude of the party opposite as set out in that resolution was confirmed by the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) in our defence debate in February. It was further underlined in a broadcast made only a fortnight ago by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), in which he said:
"Our vital interests are not always the same as America's vital interests. That being so, the threat to bring the deterrent into play must exist here as well as across the Atlantic."
That is perfectly true, but there is also, I think, another consideration. So long as large American forces remain in Europe, and American bombers are based in Britain, it might conceivably be thought safe—I am not saying that it would—to leave to the United States the

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sole responsibility for providing the nuclear deterrent. But, when they have developed the 5,000 mile inter-continental ballistic rocket, can we really be sure that every American Administration will go on looking at things in quite the same way?
We think that it is just as well to make certain that an appreciable element of nuclear power shall in all circumstances remain on this side of the Atlantic, so that no one shall be tempted to think that a major attack could be made against Western Europe without the risk of nuclear retaliation. I am quite sure that our European neighbours feel the same and are glad to know that Britain intends to remain a nuclear Power.
Mr. Marcus Lipton: In five years' time.
Mr. Sandys: One of the basic principles of our defence policy is, therefore, that Britain must manufacture the hydrogen bomb. Again, I say I am glad that there is agreement on both sides of the House about that—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—I am glad there is agreement. It is rather fascinating—
Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: To trail one's coat.
Mr. Sandys: —to watch the fission-fusion-fission of hon. Members opposite: We are only waiting to see which way the fall-out will be.
As far as I can see, judging from official statements, the only difference between us is whether, having made the bomb, we should test it. We are not anxious to use it. The only object of having the bomb is to deter aggression and prevent war, and that is something which, I believe, we all fervently desire. The question is whether a weapon which has never been tested would be a very effective deterrent.
Mr. George Thomas: Why not?
Mr. Sandys: The hon. Member asks, "Why not?" The right hon. Member for Belper provided a very good answer.
Mr. Lipton: What is the Minister's answer?
Mr. Sandys: I thought that the hon. Member would be better convinced by a
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right hon. Gentleman on his own side of the House.
In his broadcast the other day, the right hon. Gentleman said:
"We must be able to show any aggressor that we have got the bomb. The only way you can really do that is to show that you have successfully tried it out and it has worked. To that extent tests are implicit in the decision to have the bomb."
Mr. George Brown: Read on.
Mr. Sandys: If the right hon. Gentleman would like to read on I shall be glad to give way.
Mr. Brown: Let the right hon. Gentleman read on.
Mr. Sandys: I have not the whole of it. I will give way so that the right hon. Gentleman may do so.
Mr. Brown: The right hon. Gentleman may go on with his party politics, but I want to make it quite clear that he has selected a short piece of the broadcast and that I shall read the whole piece when I speak.
Mr. Sandys: I gave way because I thought that the right hon. Gentleman felt I was being unfair. I gave way so that he could read the extract. He asked me to read it and I thought I would give him the opportunity to read it himself. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say that I am engaging in party politics.
Mr. John Dugdale: What is the Minister doing?
Mr. Sandys: What I am trying to do is to emphasise the underlying unity of policy which exists, at any rate, at the official level. The right hon. Member for Belper is quite right when he says that we cannot separate the issue of the manufacture of the bomb from the issue of testing it. The hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), who belongs to a section of the party which does not always agree on all these matters, summed it up very well in the Daily Mirror the other day, in the column "Crossman Says". He said:
"We Socialists cannot go on sitting on the fence and trying to pretend that it makes sense to say that Britain should have an H bomb but not test it."
Mr. George Wigg: My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) has a right to his opinion.
Mr. Sandys: I am only trying to find a basis for agreement between us all. I believe there is a very wide measure of agreement between us; from the extreme Left to the extreme Right of the Labour Party there seems to be agreement.
The nuclear deterrent includes, of course, not only the bomb, but also the means of delivering it. For some years to come our V-bombers and further developments of which they are capable will be highly effective. As we know, they will be progressively supplemented in due course by ballistic rockets. In the first place, these will be the American weapons which we are expecting to receive under the recent agreement. As the House knows, they are subject to certain restrictions as to their use, but it is no good being too critical about that since, as I made clear in the House the other day, the alternative was to have no rockets at all until some years later.
I should like to emphasise that the acceptance of the American offer does not mean that Britain is going out of the rocket business. It will, however, enable us to concentrate work in collaboration with the Americans, on the development of more advanced types. In the meantime, we shall, as I have said, have the British V-bombers which, with British nuclear bombs, will give us a far from negligible element of nuclear deterrent power under our own control.
Mr. Lipton: When?
Mr. Sandys: Now. The bombers exist, as I said in an earlier debate, and as is said in the White Paper we already have our stock of, admittedly, kiloton atomic bombs.
Mr. Lipton: The right hon. Gentleman said "nuclear" bombs.
Mr. Sandys: I thought that the hon. Member was an educationist. "Nuclear" covers atomic and thermo-nuclear.
In this connection, I should like to say a word about the future of the Royal Air Force. We are unquestionably moving towards a time when fighter aircraft will be increasingly replaced by guided missiles and V-bombers by ballistic rockets, but all that will not
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happen overnight. The introduction of these new weapons will be a gradual process, extending over a good number of years, and even then there will still remain a very wide variety of roles for which manned aircraft will continue to be needed. I therefore hope that young men who have the ambition to be pilots, as well as those who are interested in new technical advances, will continue as before to look to the R.A.F. for a fine and useful career.
The Opposition Amendment
"regrets the undue dependence on the ultimate deterrent".
We are entitled—and no doubt the right hon. Member for Belper will help us in his speech—to ask them to make it clear just what it is they are criticising. They are agreed that under present conditions the country as a whole cannot be defended from nuclear attacks and that, pending disarmament, we must largely rely upon the nuclear deterrent to prevent war. This point, again, was very well stated in the same resolution of the National Executive of the Labour Party, on which I cannot improve. It said:
"Until world disarmament can be achieved, weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Britain and her allies in N.A.T.O. form the most effective deterrent against aggression."
The right hon. Member for Dundee, West emphasised that further in his speech in our last defence debate.
If the Opposition are agreed that we must base our defence upon the nuclear deterrent, what is it that they are unhappy about? What is it that they want? Are they asking—and this is what I should like to know—that we should provide larger conventional forces than are envisaged in the White Paper? During last week hon. Members of the party opposite have to same extent been casting doubts upon the possibility of recruiting the Regular forces of 375,000 which we are planning, as stated in the White Paper. I do not see how they could hope to increase that figure and, at the same time, get rid of National Service.
On the other hand, it may be that the phrase
"undue dependence on the ultimate deterrent"
is prompted by the fear that every war might become a nuclear war. I do not know whether that is the thought. It may well be that in their minds is the

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fear that every war may become a nuclear war. That is a very understandable anxiety, and one which has been expressed in a number of quarters recently.
It arises, I think, from a tendency to generalise about the nature of war. One must distinguish between major global war, involving a head-on clash between the great Powers, and minor conflicts which can be localised and which do not bring the great Powers into direct collision. Limited and localised acts of aggression, for example, by a satellite Communist State could, no doubt, be resisted with conventional arms, or, at worst, with tactical atomic weapons, the use of which could be confined to the battle area.
George Chetwynd: Quite impossible.
Mr. Sandys: If, on the other hand, the Russians were to launch a full-scale offensive against Western Europe, it would, I submit, be quite unrealistic to imagine that the issue could be fought out on limited conventional lines and according to rules. In such circumstances, that is, a head-on clash between the great Powers in Europe, between the Communist world and the free world, it is inconceivable that either the Soviet Union or the free world would allow itself to be defeated, with all that that would mean, without throwing everything it had into the battle, including nuclear weapons.
Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I want to ask him a question on a sentence which he used about the use of atomic tactical weapons. Did I rightly understand him to suggest that, in his view, a non-major effort by a Russian satellite, shall we say Germany, could be repelled with atomic tactical weapons without involving us all in a nuclear war? Is it the view of the Government that we can rely on atomic tactical weapons to counterbalance Russian conventional superiority, because this is a question to which we ought to have a clear answer?
Mr. Sandys: It is very difficult to give a clear answer. I was saying before—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I am going to answer the hon. Gentleman's question.
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What I am saying, and I repeat what I said earlier, is that we must not generalise about the nature of war. There are all kinds of different wars of different intensities in different parts of the world. I am not saying that in the case of any war which took place in Germany one could have any confidence that it would not end in a world war— any serious war in Germany. There are such enormous forces there and the great Powers are involved, but I am not excluding that possibility.
I am saying that it is quite conceivable that, in certain circumstances, it might be possible to resist an act of aggression, for example, it might have been possible in Korea—I do not know, but it is a possibility—by the use of tactical nuclear weapons without necessarily bringing the whole world down in conflagration. I have said "at worst," but what I am almost sure about is that when we get a head-on collision between the Soviet Union and the United States, involving the defeat of and domination by the one of the other, it is quite unrealistic to imagine that that kind of conflict can be decided by anything short of the whole works.
Mrs. Barbara Castle: I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Is it not the fact that even an atomic shell is the equivalent of four kilotons of T.N.T., about 400 times the size of the biggest block-buster ever used in the last war, and that we really cannot shoot these things around without having the whole of world opinion and world antagonism against us?
Mr. Sandys: I am not proposing to shoot any block-busters around, as the hon. Lady suggests. I was trying to show that there are different degrees of war. The hon. Lady may be right, but I hope she is not right.
In certain circumstances, if it did come, in a war, to the use of tactical weapons, I devoutly hope that it might not necessarily lead to the use of the wholesale weapons of mass destruction on great cities, as distinct from the tactical use of these admittedly very formidable weapons in the area of battle. I do not think that there is any disagreement between us. This is a matter of fact, or,

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at any rate, not one of fact, but of one's hunch as to possible developments in the future. All this is purely hypothetical.
Mr. Crossman: The House has a right to ask questions about atomic tactical weapons. Does this mean that we have now decided to dispense with most of our conventional forces in Europe on the assumption that a limited war can be fought with atomic tactical weapons? If this is the view, I beg my right hon. Friends above the Gangway to see the importance of what we shall be dividing on in this House, because this will be a Division which, I am sure, will unite this side against that.
Mr. Sandys: All I would say is that we should certainly achieve something if we did that. I would like, joking apart, to answer the hon. Member's question. It certainly does not mean that we are abandoning our ability to use conventional forces with conventional weapons. Certainly not.
Mr. Crossman: We are to have both conventional and atomic tactical weapons in Europe?
Mr. Sandys: I was talking before about the necessity for Britain to have the nuclear deterrent, and by the nuclear deterrent I do not include primarily the tactical weapons. That is not what I am talking about. We are at present, to a limited extent, as the House knows, adopting certain tactical weapons, but the major effort is, of course, and will continue to be, in the conventional field.
Mr. R. R. Stokes: May I ask the Minister this question? Does he really believe that if, in a limited war, use were made of what he calls tactical nuclear weapons, the side that found itself losing would not use the ultimate deterrent before being defeated?
Mr. Sandys: I am glad that we are having this discussion, because I think it is rather important. I will go over it again, if I may.
First, I was talking about the various degrees of war. There is the all-out global war, the head-on clash and collision between the United States and the Soviet Union. I do not believe, and I do not think anybody else can seriously believe, that that could take place without the use of nuclear weapons. Then
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there is the possibility of acts of aggression—not where the two giants are both involved in a clash with one another—as, for example, in Korea. That was dealt with in Korea by conventional weapons.
I cannot say that, if, in some years' time, a similar situation arises, atomic tactical weapons might not be used by one side or another. Obviously, the bigger the weapon one uses, the greater the risks one takes of bringing the world to the verge of catastrophe. All I am saying is that the possibility is not to be excluded that those weapons might be used without necessarily bringing down the whole cataclysm upon the world.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Sandys: I would like to go on.
What I would emphasise is that apart from the nuclear deterrent, which, we feel, we must have in this country, the major part of our military effort will, in any case, continue to go into forces designed to fulfil the conventional roles of military defence.
Mr. Silverman: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the point—
Mr. Sandys: I have given way a number of times. I am afraid of boring the House by continuing too long on one point.
Mr. R. T. Paget: The N.A.T.O. Commander-in-Chief was given authority two years ago to use atomic tactical weapons to stop aggression in Europe. All the N.A.T.O. defences are based on that doctrine.
Mr. Sandys: I do not think that I can pursue that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] I will answer the point, but I do not want to go on any further about it. What the hon. and learned Member is referring to is the strategy of N.A.T.O., and N.A.T.O. exists primarily to deal with just that head-on collision between the Communist world and the free world [Interruption.] Nobody has suggested that a minor incursion which might take place along the N.A.T.O. front would automatically be dealt with by the whole mechanism of nuclear retaliation.
I was saying, and I want to stress this, that a major part of our military effort

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will, in any case, continue to go into forces designed primarily to fulfil the conventional rôles of military defence. Above all, we must make our contribution to N.A.T.O., to S.E.A.T.O. and to the Bagdad alliance. We cannot any longer afford to bear more than our fair share of the joint burden, but no one need have any fear whatsoever that Britain will bear less than her fair share.
We are not contracting out of our obligations. Even at the end of our five-year plan, when all the reductions we have proposed have taken effect, there is little doubt that we shall still be making a more powerful contribution to the defence of the free world than any other country, apart from the United States.
In addition to our contribution to these alliances, we have, of course, to carry out our own special British obligations for the defence of our Colonies and of the other territories for whose protection we have responsibility. But that does not mean to say that we must go on maintaining garrisons and other forces overseas on the scale that we have been doing hitherto. We must, of course, keep an adequate number of troops in those places where there is a threat of local attack or where there is some special internal security problem. In planning the size and distribution of our garrisons, however, we must take full advantage of the greatly increased size and range of modern transport aircraft, which now make it possible to dispatch reinforcements rapidly to any place where trouble occurs.
One of the essential features of the White Paper is the maintenance of a strong central reserve of troops in Britain with a substantial fleet of transport aircraft to give them the necessary mobility. R.A.F. Transport Command at present has a number of Comet and Hastings aircraft and will, in due course, be receiving Britannias.
Mr. F. J. Bellenger: What military forces could those transport aircraft move now?
Mr. Sandys: The right hon. Gentleman, as a former Secretary of State for War, knows that it would be a most grave indiscretion if I were to say exactly how many troops could be moved in what period of time. I would be very
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grateful if we could be supplied with similar information by certain other countries.
The Britannia is a spendid aircraft, which is ideally suited for long-distance troop movements. The Government attach great importance to the mobility of the central reserve and I assure the House that such further Britannias as may be necessary for this purpose will be ordered.
Mr. James Callaghan: Ordered?
Mr. Sandys: A number have already been ordered and further Britannias will be ordered. As the hon. Member well knows, this aircraft is only just coming in, even on the civil side. We are looking a little bit ahead, that is all.
Mr. Callaghan: Yes, very much.
Mr. Sandys: For transportation within theatres of operations, the Beverley freighters are being provided. Quite a number of these are already in service and a considerable number more are on order.
In addition to troop movement and troop reinforcements from Britain, the Navy and the Marines provide a powerful element of mobile reserve and, in particular, of air power. It is with this consideration in mind that we have decided that the Navy should be organised primarily around a small number of carrier task forces. With modern ships and up-to-date equipment, the Royal Navy of the future, though smaller, will, we believe, be a highly effective mobile force well suited to meet all kinds of overseas emergencies and to play its part in sustaining N.A.T.O. and our other alliances.
Taken together, the various decisions on policy set out in the White Paper will reduce the Armed Forces sufficiently to enable us to bring National Service to an end. As everyone knows, National Service is extremely wasteful in its use of manpower. Its abolition, therefore, will in itself further reduce the numbers of men needed.
The Government's decision to bring National Service to an end has, I think, been universally welcomed, but I have seen it suggested that this is not a firm decision. I would like to make it quite

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clear that from now on all action is proceeding on the basis that the call-up will end in 1960 and that the last National Service man will leave the forces in 1962.
Our plan provides for reducing the strength of the forces by rather more than 300,000 men. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service hopes to have an opportunity later in the debate to explain to the House the way we propose to call up the reduced numbers required. I should, however, tell the House straight away that the Governme0nt do not intend to cut down the two-year period of National Service. While the strength of the forces is being run down, some loss of efficiency will, in any case, be unavoidable. It would not be right to add to this by increasing the training commitment and losing the last part of a man's service when he is of greatest value.
To abolish National Service, we must, of course, get the voluntary recruits that we need. As the White Paper explains, we are planning to reduce the Armed Forces from about 700,000 at present to about 375,000 on an all-Regular basis. I am not yet ready to give precise figures for each Service, but, broadly, it can be taken that about one-fifth will be for the Navy, rather more than two-fifths for the Army, and rather less than two-fifths for the Air Force.
Since voluntary recruitment is voluntary, there must always be some element of uncertainty about it. After taking the best expert and other advice available, we conclude that there is every reason to expect that we shall get the numbers we need. It is, I think, generally recognised that the abolition of National Service, with its disturbing influence, will in itself greatly help voluntary recruitment.
Also, it will be necessary, as the White Paper says, to take steps to make conditions of life in the Services more attractive. Various proposals are now being considered. The problem of recruitment is quite different for each of the three Services. The Army, and, to a lesser extent, the Air Force, will need greatly to increase the number of long-service recruits. On the other hand, the Navy and the Marines should have no difficulty in attracting on long, nine-year engagements all the men they require under the new plan.
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The contraction of the forces that we propose will inevitably create the problem of redundancy among officers and senior other ranks. Again, this problem will differ in the three Services. In general, those most affected will be officers in the middle range. I will illustrate this as it applies to the Army. The subalterns and captains include a fairly large proportion of National Service men and officers on short-term engagements. Therefore, provided that new entries are restricted, the numbers in the junior ranks should adjust themselves fairly quickly.
In the upper ranks, most of the present officers will reach the normal end of their careers during the next five years, so that no large problem arises there. In the middle ranks, particularly among majors and lieutenant-colonels, there is, unfortunately, no escape from a considerable number of premature retirements. Until the new organisation is worked out in detail, it is not possible to calculate precisely the total number of officers and other ranks who will become redundant. The best preliminary estimate I can give at present is that the three Services together may have a surplus of between 5,000 and 7,000 officers and about that number of warrant officers and N. C. O. s.
We have carefully considered how these reductions should be effected. One method, of course, would be to allow the surplus to work itself off with the passage of time as those concerned reach the normal end of their careers. However, that would inevitably create a serious and prolonged blockage of promotion. It would be very frustrating to those now serving and would discourage young men from entering the Services as a career. We consider, therefore, that the aim should be to reduce the number of officers and N. C. O. s progressively as the forces contract. In this way, the process should be largely completed during the course of the next five or six years.
Those who leave the Services prematurely as a result of this new plan must, of course, be properly compensated. I am sure that the whole House would wish to see these men who have loyally served the country get a square deal. A scheme of compensation is at present being worked out. The Government primarily have in mind action along two lines. First, we intend to make special lump sum payments to the men affected.

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In addition, we propose to introduce some appropriate relaxation of the qualifying conditions governing retired pay and pensions in favour of those who leave the Services prematurely under the scheme.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: What about the redundant workers?
Mr. Sandys: I am dealing here with redundancy in the forces. I myself do not see that there is much fear, with the expanding economy of this country, that people displaced from war production will not find other productive work.
I come now to a question which is being much discussed, namely, that of the closer integration of the Services. It is being pointed out that the Armed Forces are being reduced to a combined strength which is less than the present strength of the Army by itself. This, naturally, raises in people's minds the question whether three separate Service Departments continue to be needed to administer fewer men than are now being administered by the War Office alone.
We should not, I think, lightly embark upon major changes in the structure of the great fighting Services and their relations one with another. Nevertheless, the Government recognise that, with the reduction in the size of the forces and the changing character of their weapons, some measure of integration or closer co-ordination must be seriously considered. This we are now doing, but I cannot yet say what our conclusions will be.
Meanwhile, the Service Ministers and I have set up machinery to carry out a comprehensive review of the administrative aspects of this question. The object is to reduce the number of headquarters, depots and establishments of all kinds and to eliminate overlapping between the Services. This administrative overhaul is a very big task, and I am convinced that it will not produce effective results unless it is directed from a high level by a combined inter-Service organism.
I have, therefore, set up a Defence Administration Committee, under the chairmanship of the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Defence. The other Members of the Committee are the Permanent Secretaries of the three Service Departments and the Ministry of Supply,
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together with Service members of the Board of Admiralty and of the Army and Air Councils, who will attend when matters affecting their responsibilities are being discussed. The Committee will have a small staff of its own of senior officers and officials who can, when necessary, be sent out to study particular problems in commands at home and overseas.
I have endeavoured to deal with the most important individual features of the White Paper. But, of course, our plan must be looked at as a whole. It must be judged by the effects it is likely to have on our defence and on our economy. As regards the economy, the new policy has already saved the taxpayer quite a lot of money. I hope that we shall, over the next few years, be able to save a good bit more.
What is even more important is that it will save a great deal of manpower. Over 300.000 men will be released from the Services, as well as many civilians now engaged on defence work, among them a considerable number of much needed scientists and technicians. The skill and energy of these people when transferred to productive work will undoubtedly make an appreciable addition to the strength of our economy at home and abroad.
Judged from the standpoint of defence, the new plan will give us compact, highly trained, mobile, all-Regular forces, equipped on up-to-date lines and well suited to face the realities of the world of today.
4.40 p.m.
Mr. George Brown: I have three things to say about the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, part of which will take in the laughter by hon. Members opposite. Let us get this out of our way at once, if we can. I do not begrudge the Government whatever fun, whatever joke, whatever party points they think it right to have out of the knowledge—it is no use denying it, and no one is going to—that there are differences of view about some of these very grave issues; and, if I may say so, after the conclusion of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, they are issues which are clearly as clouded in his mind as in the minds of others. The Government are entitled, in a defence debate to concentrate on that kind of

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game, if they wish, but I think that twenty-seven minutes out of a speech of one hour is a little long to spend on simply making the point that there are some disagreements here and that I have said some things with which some of my hon. Friends do not agree.
Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman spent a lot of time asking us some questions and asking about our Amendment. Up to this point, and up to any point at which I choose to change it, the discussion is wholly about his White Paper. He seemed to think that the whole vast array of questions which were addressed by him to the Opposition were naturally and properly susceptible to clear and unequivocal answers; and yet he clearly thought that every single question put to him from this side of the House would not permit of any kind of answer at all. I will do my best, in the course of what I have to say, to take in some of the questions that he put to us, because they seemed to be important questions to which we ourselves are bound to try to indicate our answers.
When the right hon. Gentleman came to the question of National Service and I thought of what he had just been saying about us—compromises and the rest—and when I saw sitting there the Minister of Labour whom, he told us, was tomorrow going to tell us about the thing of which only last July he was a most vehement opponent, I was a little amused that the right hon. Gentleman thought it was a point that he could laugh at. When talking about Front Benchers compromising, here is the right hon. Gentleman who said six months ago, as I shall quote in a moment—I am not bringing in any selected quotations, but I shall be quoting from HANSARD—that he did not see this as a practical possibility. There is a lot more which I shall read in a moment in the same strain. I have warned hon. Members opposite that, in that somewhat unrewarding field, there is no particular point in spending a lot of time suggesting that there are disagreements. There is bound to be such disagreement when defence is in the state where many people are uncertain where certain courses of action will lead.
I propose to do something which is not particularly usual for me. I propose today to stick fairly closely to notes—the word "notes" perhaps ought to appear
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in inverted commas—with which I have provided myself. If anyone thinks that he knows why I am doing that, there is no prize for knowing the answer.
As we all know, there have been six or seven Ministers of Defence since the present party gained power in 1951. Not all were there long enough to produce a White Paper, but those who have have one thing in common, and the right hon. Gentleman shares it today, that the White Papers and their speeches introducing them always started with the claim that they had produced a new policy. It is true of every White Paper at which I have looked, in preparing for this debate, since they began this operation five years ago. It was true in 1955.
The right hon. Gentleman today said that he was producing a five-year plan—a plan to be seen over five years. It is presumably something different from the one last year. But do not let us do an injustice to Lord Monckton, because Lord Monckton last year produced a seven-year plan. Lord Monckton last year introduced a White Paper in which he said—I am quoting from paragraph 1:
"The main task of the past year, a task that will continue, has been to translate that policy"—
of Her Majesty's Government—
"into a defence programme. In that process account has to be taken of three main factors political, strategic and economic."
I gather that those are the three main factors which the right hon. Gentleman was taking into account today. In paragraph 13, Lord Monckton said:
"Nevertheless, proposals for this year have had regard to probable developments over the next seven years. The objects of this review were:

(i) to ensure that the developing pattern of the Services over the next few years conforms to the needs of the new strategic situation;

(ii) to provide for the Services reasonable long-term plans on which their production, training and building programmes can be based. The experience of the last few years has shown that these programmes should be framed over a period of at least three years and viewed against a still longer-term plan if we are to make the best and most economical use of the resources available;

(iii) to ensure that the reduction in manpower is achieved with least military risk;

(iv) to ensure that the cost of defence whether in terms of manpower, materials or money does not overload the economy."

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That is very good, but the right hon. Gentleman said today that he had done something entirely different. He then read out the same words in a slightly different order. I am only making the point that this White Paper is being sold a wee bit highly. The Government are doing themselves the discredit of saying that, over the last six Defence Ministers, including the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Gentleman has discovered, in a blinding flash on the road to Damascus, what was hidden from all the rest.
I am sorry that the Prime Minister has to yawn. I am coming to his aid. I am merely pointing out that it was all thought out before the present Minister got there. I know that the Minister of Defence claims to have written every word of this himself, but it is surprising how near it is to the last White Paper. Although in last year's White Paper it was a new programme, although it was a seven-year programme, and although it took account of all those factors, the right hon. Gentleman now says in paragraph 3 of his White Paper:
"However, the time has now come to revise not merely the size, but the whole character of the defence plan."
That is the whole character of something that was to last seven years. When we turn to paragraph 9, he goes on to say:
"Frequent changes in defence policy are wasteful and disturbing."
If we are to change it every year, and that is not the sort of frequent change that is disturbing, how often does he think that we should change it before it becomes disturbing? Does he realise the fact that every Minister of Defence who has came in for such a short time has thought that he was bound to start all over again? It is precisely because of that that we have wasted nearly £8,000 million since they started on the job. Now the right hon. Gentleman says that the whole character has to be changed because what has gone before is not up to it. There is nothing special about the right hon. Gentleman which was not special about Lord Monckton, and even about the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) and about the Foreign Secretary or any of the previous Ministers. They all meant it, too. They were all sincere. They all wanted to do the job, and they all declared it to be
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the same job. I think that the right hon. Gentleman is laying it on a bit thick in assuming that, because he now says it, it is going to be something more certain than before.
I want to look at some of the points in the White Paper before I turn—and I want to develop the major part of what I have to say as the right hon. Gentleman did—to the major basic concept of the White Paper where there is something different—I believe there is—from the previous one. May I say first of all that, in so far as the right hon. Gentleman has the right to claim credit for having now faced up to the nuclear realities, we on this side are glad, (a) because clearly it was long overdue, and (b) because that is what we so vainly urged on Ministerial speakers in the debate in February of last year, in the one in July of last year and again in the curtain-raiser we had to this debate a month or so ago.
I will try not to overstate any of the criticisms that I want to make, but what I fear is that in so far as he has tried to face these realities and take decisions, the Minister has taken the negative ones—some of the negative ones; decisions to cut here, decisions to wind up there or partially to do so; decisions to get rid of National Service or partially to get rid of it. They are all negative decisions.
If he wants to know, what we mean by that part of our Amendment which regrets the lack of firm decisions is that none of the positive decisions appear to have been taken at all, none of the positive decisions that flow from the change in concept which he himself claims in this White Paper. I will do my best to show what I mean.
First, may I come to the question of National Service? We spent a lot of time on this last year. When the right hon. Gentleman says that the decision to get rid of it in a phased five-year plan is universally welcomed, all he means is that the Tory benches who kept saying that it was impossible last year have now joined the Labour benches in saying that not only is it possible but that it must be done. That is the only change there.
We then said that it was a fundamental decision if we were to get smaller, more efficient, highly mobile and less costly forces but, as I have said, we were asking for it to be done in four years. The only

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difference is that we were one year sooner—therefore, we should have saved a year on the way—and the Government want to take one year longer over the actual operation. Even in regard to that my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr Strachey) said that if the Government's objection to our Motion was whether it should be four or five years, it was for the Government to say which of the figures they preferred and why. There was no other difference between what we proposed and what they are now doing, except in the discussion of the steps by which it should be done.
I quoted just now the actual statement of the Minister of Labour on 31st July, when he said:
"In short, T simply do not believe that the Motion is a practical proposition …"
Later he said:
"As I see it, the practical problem which confronts us is that if the calculations we have made are right, we will need …"
and I ask the Minister to listen to this, because this is why we suspect in part the firmness of the decision—
"to supplement the number of Regulars that we are likely to obtain but not to the extent of calling up all the men who become available from an age class."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1956; Vol. 557. c. 1201.]
It was a declaration that they believed they would have to supplement the number of Regulars they were likely to obtain by calling up selectively a limited number of people. That was a firm declaration.
If the Minister of Labour now says, "Well, on reflection, I went too far; it has turned out in practice that it was a practical Motion and I was wrong to say that it was not so; I do not now believe that we will need to supplement from the ranks of National Service the number of Regulars we are likely to get"—if he says that, there is no answer from this side of the House. I, for one, will not subject him to the kind of jibes used against us. if he has changed his mind—well, somebody has to be first; I am rather pleased that it was us—I will accept that.
The Minister of Labour and National Service (Mr. fain Macleod): I will try, if I am called in the debate tomorrow, to deal with some of these matters, which I regard as most important, but there
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is one point which I should make now. The essential difference between the White Paper and the scheme the Opposition put forward last year is, first of all, the difference in commitments, but secondly and more important, the question of numbers, because last year—and the right hon. Gentleman will find this mentioned fifty times in the course of the debate— we were arguing on a basis of male other ranks of 200,000 and of a total of 450,000. I do not believe that it is possible to get by Regular service alone a total of 450,000; I do believe it is perhaps possible now to get 375,000, but that is a different matter.
Mr. Brown: It is 25,000 that has changed the right hon. Gentleman's mind.
Mr. Macleod: Seventy-five thousand.
Mr. Brown: Seventy-five thousand, but not for the Army.
Mr. Macleod: No.
Mr. Brown: I simply say this to the right hon. Gentleman. He had better read the debate. The two things he now asserts were not present are present. The debate last year was about changes in commitments, reductions in commitments. The very bases the Government are now proposing to wind up, we proposed should be wound up last year, and the 200,000 figure will be found there. It was mentioned by me as the most pessimistic figure of the number of Regulars required, having been given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carshalton.
I went on to speak of all these assumptions that we could not do with anything less when we cut our commitments; that we could not do with anything less when we have done our reorganisation. I then took the other side and said that it had been alleged that the maximum we should get was about 130,000. I said this was the most pessimistic figure and that we thought that the two figures would be something between these two limits. By all means let the Minister now justify his decision. I only warn him that he will have to do an awful lot of arguing against the things he argued last year, and he must expect, particularly in view of the way that the Tory Party think they have the right to talk to us, to be hauled up to explain the difference between the view he took last year and the one he takes now.

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I believe this to be right. We believed it to be right last year, but I still say that if it is a firm commitment then something that has not yet been done must be done. I came armed, but I do not need to use it, with what the Minister said in his interview on television. Then he said: "This is a firm commitment." Today he said, "All action is proceeding on the basis that this will end in 1961." They might not necessarily be exactly the same words, and I am making no point of that.
Mr. Sandys: There is no intention that there should be any difference between those two statements.
Mr. Brown: I am not making a point of that, but I must make a point of the fact that the White Paper does not say it. This, after all, was the outline of future policy. This is the great radical reappraisal for which we were asked to wait, but the paragraph on this question simply say that they will "plan on the basis of." It does not say what the Minister has since said, "We engage in a firm decision now that, come what may, National Service will end in 1961." This is a quite different matter. I am emboldened to push the point for this reason, too. We recognise on this side of the House that the Government do not end National Service merely by a declaration that they are going to end it. They do not end National Service merely by saying that they are considering how to get more Regular recruits. Some very firm and urgent decisions have to be taken at the beginning of the operation.
One of the consequences of this—my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) will point this out if nobody else does; that is not the reason I am getting in first, but this just sets the plan of campaign for him—is that we have to cut the British Army of the Rhine very considerably. Unless the men in that Army really are highly mobile, and equipped with weapons which make up in additional fire power and efficiency for what they lose in numbers, and unless there really is a Transport Command here and now to service them from here and to reinforce them if need be—not something in the future but something here and now—by the time this operation to end National Service is done these men will be
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what I said they would be last July, like tethered sacrificial goats out there right at the end of the limb.
I am worried, not that he is using different phrases deliberately, but that, if it is a firm commitment, he is not taking in this White Paper, here and now, any of the decisions that militarily, defencewise, from a Service angle would make it possible. I am quite sure that the Minister of Labour will tell us how, technically, it will be done. His Ministry is tremendously good—as I know from personal experience—at this kind of operation, but is it not a bit surprising that not one Service Minister is to take part in this debate?
Not a single Service Minister is to speak in this debate, and of the Service Ministers it is the Secretary of State for War, in particular, who has to answer for whether the Army re-organisation, the mobility, the weapon changes, are really being engaged upon in time to go simultaneously with this operation. I think that we are entitled to have that informaion. If we do not have it in this debate, we must have it in the debate on the Army Estimates. We are entitled to know from the Secretary of State for War whether this firm commitments is being undertaken at the expense of the men—being jumped into as a commitment on paper—or whether it is being accompanied by a real working out of its consequences.
One of the consequences of doing it properly would be that we could not get these savings in this year. Part of the way in which this sum of money has been saved in this year—I will, of course, come to the figures later—is that in this year we are not spending money on replacements for the National Service men; nor are we spending it in improvement in accommodation, improvement in Transport Command, or in the weapons of improvement. That is being deferred. It may well be that the motives for that have nothing to do with what my base mind at first thought. It may simply be that the right hon. Gentleman was so determined to get a large proportion of saving in the first year that his colleague's handling of his share of the job and being responsible for the men was left right out of the count.
We should be told something about that. There has to be, and we all know

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it, a vast change in the Army structure, in the divisional formations, if this new model, small, efficient Regular Army is to do its job. The other night we were told by the Under-Secretary of State for War that the War Office minds were moving on the subject. Since then—dead silence. Have they moved right out of the War Office, or have they just run out of movement? There is plenty of advice available to the right hon. Gentleman on the subject, and some very excellent papers written on the kind of reorganisation that ought to be done, but this, it seems to me, is a fundamental omission from the right hon. Gentleman's paper.
May it not be that that is why we have run into such trouble in S.H.A.P.E. and in the Western European Union over our proposals to cut the B.A.O.R.? May it not be that they realise that this thing is being done as an economy, and not as a means of building up greater efficiency or greater purpose? The Americans, the Germans, even the French, are all re-organising their divisions, cutting their divisional slice to a total size of about half that of ours, and doing it without being set upon by others as defaulters: whereas we, who have carried more than our share for a long time, have had to face public inquisition and criticism, as though we were defaulting debtors, over re-organising our divisions. I think the reason is that we went about it as an economy move and without any preparation, instead of as a planned military Service operation to produce, as the Americans, the Germans and the French are doing, a division which is more relevant to today's military needs than the division we at present have.
That brings me to speak, if I may, on the whole question of our relations with N.A.T.O. I do not think that it is unfair to say, despite what the Minister says, that everything that has been done since he and his Prime Minister came to office in their present posts has created, at least, grievous concern and anxiety among our allies in the N.A.T.O. alliance. How the right hon. Gentleman could urge that these proposals were accepted with understanding abroad, I do not know.
I have many quotations here, but I will not use them—he must have them in his own office—but The Times correspondent, who went to N.A.T.O. when our
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announcements were made, said on 6th April:
"Not only are there doubts"—
he was commenting on Sir Frank Roberts' presentation of the details:
"about the wisdom of British intentions, particularly in regard to their possible effects on other members of the alliance, but the prevailing feeling is that the British Government have 'by-passed' N.A.T.O. and thus weakened the alliance … The reply of the other members is that this is a unilateral decision, not in keeping with the spirit of the alliance. Moreover, some feel that the British White Paper smacks altogether too much of domestic politics."
That may, of course, be the understanding to which the right hon. Gentleman was referring—I do not know—but it is not a very good testimony to the way in which we have built up, supported, reinforced the N.A.T.O. alliance.
Perhaps I may be allowed to say that last year we took the very greatest care in our proposals—and I remember being twitted from all over the other side of the House because I did take so much care—that our proposals should first be put to our allies in Western European Union, discussed with them, and that the final decision should be taken in the light of those consultations. We were trying, at all stages, to protect the alliance, to take care of the consequences to the alliance of what we might be doing. It cannot be said that this Government has done that.
It may be ironic, but it is the fact that it is these two right hon. Gentlemen who have done as much as anybody to bring back a lot of the spirit of the 'thirties into this whole business. They have, in fact, done great damage to the N.A.T.O. alliance, to Western European Union, by the way in which they have done this, and by their failure to connect up the whole thing with these defence relevancies. I believe that that should be said to them very bluntly, and that is why I do so.
When I speak in this House, one thing always happens; the clock almost always moves twice as fast for me as for anybody else, so I will move to the major matter. But first, perhaps, I may refer to two detailed points—though not mere points of detail—and then leave the rest of the detailed criticism to my Service colleagues who, unlike those on the Front Benches opposite, will all be taking part in the debate.

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The first detailed point concerns the perennial reference, again, to which we have both referred, to Transport Command. Can we get clear what we have, and then stop using these phrases about "substantial fleets" that only lead everyone into a state of unjustified optimism? A Manchester Guardian leader says:
"There is one squadron of Comets and one squadron of Beverleys, and the Hastings are old and slow, though reliable. As a fleet it k far too small, and the Government's hope that it could be reinforced adequately by civil aircraft and by Britannias is almost pitiful."
If, in fact, that is all we have, if we are not to have any of the Britannias we have at present on order until 1958, if we are only now just ordering some others, what is the point of continuing to put this reference in every annual White Paper? The short answer is that we have not got a fleet, outside of what we could commandeer, if the day came, from the civil airlines. That is all there is to our Transport Command. The Beverley's range and lift is very much open to question as compared with its American counterpart, but, even so, the Beverleys are coming off the line so slowly that they will not be very relevant for a very long time to come.
We have heard all about this redundancy and of how we must take care of redundant workers. Why does not the Minister consider getting his Supply colleague to turn over some of the aircraft factories whose work is being cut off to making the Beverley for the main contractor? Is not one of our problems that Blackburn's are not really the sort or size of firm to do this in the time required? But there is no approach to that problem at all.
Then there is the business about missiles. I am still extremely uncertain about the position. We keep being told by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence that we have agreed in principle to the supply of some missiles from the United States to us. The New York Times of Monday, 8th April, makes it quite clear that the much quoted Thor, which is not by any means the only one involved in this highly secret agreement, is two to four years away from "true operational status," which means that it is perhaps five years away from us. It is presumably on this that the decision to
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cut the V-bomber force, both in the numbers originally projected and the numbers to follow on, was based.
Is this true? Is this the position? We are not here in secret. These things are freely quoted elsewhere. This is taking tremendous risks with our people's lives. If the basic deterrent and the ability to deliver it is the main thing that we have to take into account, the question whether we have enough means to deliver it and in time is of enormous importance to the survival of these islands.
Brigadier O. L. Prior-Palmer Brigadier O. L. Prior-Palmer (Worthing) rose—
Mr. Brown: I am asking the Minister. I do not think that the hon. and gallant Member knows any more than I do. If I am wrong, let the Minister tell me, but there is no published information that leads me to think that I am wrong, and there is a good deal to lead me to think that I am right.
Brigadier Prior-Palmer: The right Inn. Gentleman ought to give way. We had several interruptions earlier.
Mr. Brown: What is the position on warheads? [HON. MEMBERS: "Give way."] That never affects me, whether it comes from that side of the House or from this side. I cannot do for hon. Members opposite what I have resisted doing for those on this side of the House. None of us knows what the position is in respect of warheads. It is only the Minister from whom we need to have the answer. I am very puzzled about the position.
I put a question direct to the Prime Minister, which he can answer when he winds up tomorrow. Are we to be free to manufacture the warheads for these American missiles so that we have control of the deterrent, or are we not? Something which the Prime Minister said to me the other day led me to deduce that we were, and that if we chose—and he did not say that we would choose, and I do not press him on that—to manufacture nuclear warheads for ourselves for the American missiles, we should be free to do so.
On the other hand, President Eisenhower appears to have said exactly

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the opposite. According to The Times of 28th March, President Eisenhower
"… noted that Britain was producing certain types of atomic weapons but, if equipment were secured by any nation from the United States, atomic warheads would always remain under American control."
If that means anything, it must mean that we are not free to fit our own warheads which we control. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If it does not, I am delighted to have it pointed out to me, but hon. Members should look at the words carefully. "Equipment" covers missiles. It means rockets. If rockets are secured by any nation from the United States, the atomic warheads—and the statement makes no distinction about who makes them—will always remain under American control.
Is this so? It is no use arguing, as I try to argue on a point with which I am in agreement with right hon. Gentlemen opposite on the H-bomb, that the case is that we must have control of our own nuclear deterrent if, for a period of years, the only nuclear deterrent will be always under the control of the Americans. We cannot have it both ways. In this I am trying to protect the position of those of us who take this view about a nuclear deterrent. I believe that the position is far from clear at the moment and is in many ways rather worrying.
The only other thing that I would say about the Defence White Paper is on the figures for saving. I have never seen two paragraphs so clearly misleading as are paragraphs 70 and 71. Actual expenditures are set against estimated expenditures and gross sums against net sums, and no final figure is given. The unwary are liable to deduce a saving of several hundred millions, whereas we know that the saving claimed is £79 million; and the £79 million is less than the amount by which every annual expenditure on the Armed Forces has fallen below the estimates over the past five years. We know it to be a rather bogus figure, because it involves savings made this year which will need to be replaced in following years.
I now leave the details. More ought to be said about them during this two-day debate, including, I hope, from the other side of the House. I am not one of those who believe, as long as foreign
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policy and other major issues are part of party differences, that we shall be able to take defence out of party differences. We ought to clash. There is nothing wrong about it. This is an occasion when there ought to be probing from the benches opposite, and hon. Members opposite should not be impatient with those of us on this side of the House who try to do some probing.
I turn now to the major problem which worries us all. The views of hon. and right hon. Members opposite about it condition the White Paper, just as much as our views about it condition our Amendment. I recognise that it is an issue on which dogmatism comes badly from me—perhaps even worse from me than from anybody else. It is the issue of the ultimate deterrent, the conditions in which we use it, the influence it has on other weapons and the impact it has on foreign policy. It is an issue on which there is the gravest division in the whole nation. It may be fun to laugh about the Labour Party having different views about it and finding it difficult to be absolutely sure about any one of them. The House should remember that the British Council of Churches is also gravely divided.
Mr. Kenneth Pickthorn: That is not an alternative Government.
Mr. Brown: If the Conservative Party swears that it has none of these worries within itself, it is more out of touch with the people of the country than any Government has a right to be. I will stand by, as I must, what I have said in the past on this, but I am bound to take account of the fact that there has been a great movement of opinion in two years and that those of us who hold our view about it are bound to try to argue that case, recognising the differences of opinion that exist and not behaving as though they ought not to exist. I forecast that there will not only be the British Council of Churches differing in opinion. Hon. and right hon. Members opposite will find that there will be one of these public opinion polls which will have a considerable impact on those on the other side of the House when it shows how much division there is among the British people on this issue.
What is the basis of the division and what is the problem? First of all, it is

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that people are uncertain about the thing that we are discussing, and nobody was more uncertain—honourably uncertain—than the Minister of Defence this afternoon. The same may be said of me by the time I have sat down, but I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was very uncertain in his attempt to deal with the problem of the ultimate deterrent, the weapon of mass destruction, the nuclear deterrent, and, against the megaton range, the kiloton range, which we shall try to use to make up for the relative lack on our side of the conventional forces of which other people have so many. When we have the problem of using that weapon without producing mass suicide and the problem of dealing with a limited war and getting the sort of limited aims that might result from limited wars, the Minister of Defence is as uncertain as anybody. We must expect people to be worried and divided. The only certainty is the uncertainty of life.
The uncertainty is the uncertainty of what happens to the future generation. I do not think I have ever spoken in this House as a Christian in name, but we are in Holy Week, and religion has something to do with politics on occasions. My approach to this is of somebody who is prepared to defend my view that Britain should still have a nuclear deterrent. My view on this issue is that of the most agonising call ever made:
"Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."
We do not know what we do. We do not know the consequences. We do not know that we may not be using the devil's means to interfere with the Creator's purpose. And it is no use any of us pretending that we do. The answer is that we do not, and we have to take all this into account.
None of this is new or special to me. I say all this because in the last fortnight or so, since I took occasion to make clear where I stood on this issue, and took occasion to make clear what the Minister has repeated today, and what the policy of my party has been on this—since then I have experienced the impact of the degree of public opinion thereon. I do not mean attacks on myself calling upon me to resign, abusing me. I am used to those as a trade union official for many years. I mean the kind of thing that is
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coming now from ordinary people, good people. One gets the impression of a vast impact, a vast amount of feeling, and a great change of feeling.
Remember that we know a lot more about this weapon, or at any rate we have a lot more evidence on the slate in 1957 than we had in 1955, and it is no use just shrugging all that off. Of course there will be anxious re-examination, anxious reconsideration of this matter, I hope throughout the nation. I hope also that whilst those of us who take the view that it is essential for our national position to have in our own hands the possibilities of using the deterrent, take into account the real emotions and feelings that motivate those who disagree with us, we shall find that those who disagree with us, in turn, will take account of the fact that we are moved by all those carne emotions, too, even if we may have come down in another way. Incidentally, when I refer to our national position, I do not mean pride and power, but our geographical position.
Of course, it is easier for some of us to follow a logical course of action right through, coldly. Some of us are made that way. Some of us can argue from the decision to make the atomic bomb, through the decision to make the hydrogen bomb, the Christmas Island as a logical consequence, very coldly, but that does not mean that everybody is made as coldly as that. For some people the thing is complicated right through. I go back on nothing I have said. The policy of my party as it is now—and of course it may change at any time by due processes, because we are a democratic party—is as it has been published. But those of us who make the case for this deterrent, and who hope to hold it at that position in a democratic society, have to make a case that can be held.
I am shocked, I say it quite frankly, starting from that point of view, which I hope will commend itself to the Minister. I am shocked, both in the White Paper and in his speech, at the loose way in which the phrase "the ultimate deterrent" is employed. Today the Minister called it the H-bomb, but in the White Paper will be found the phrase "ultimate deterrent", which I assume means the same thing, namely, the means of mass destruction. It gives me the impression that some scientific gentleman in the

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Ministry of Defence, who has been propaganding this idea for some time, has at last found a Minister who will take an idea that has not been worked out, and will run off and present it in all its awfulness.
If I may weary the House with my own personal thinking on this subject, it seems to me that there is, and must be, more than one degree of deterrent in this business of the ultimate deterrent. I say that because the ultimate deterrent, the H-bomb, the weapon of mass destruction, is only a weapon right up to the day on which it is used. On the day in which it is used, and thereafter, it is no longer a weapon for Britain. It may be a weapon for somebody else with a bigger area, but for Britain it ceases to be a weapon because we are very small and we will have experienced all the consequences.
So that it is a weapon only so long as it remains a deterrent. Therefore, we have to maintain it as a deterrent. I offer this to the Minister as a basis for further thinking, that there are degrees of deterrence available, practically, and that unless we can offer some hope rather more firmly than merely not ruling out the possibility—unless we think this out further and offer some hope that we can employ a deterrent without the certainty of being blown up, we may find that we have all the weapons, all the means of delivering the deterrent, and that it will be no deterrent at all because nobody will believe that we would have the will to employ it when the day came. If we let this backlog of public opinion build up, based on fear and emotion, and we cannot show a logical case for the deterrent which falls short of actually using the mass retaliation principle, then we may find that we, the Ministers, we, the politicians, have the mechanics but that the people will control the will to make use of them.
So I say to the Prime Minister that there are two distinct bases for this part of our Amendment which I beg him to consider deeply. I ask him—though it is entirely up to him not to go round making what seemed the rather pathetic, and if humiliating at all, self-humiliating remark that he was recorded as making at Ayr, that this is one of the responsibilities that the Socialists will never face. We in the British Labour movement have played our part in Britain's defence as
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well as in any other respect, and a short reconstruction of recent national history will show the right hon. Gentleman on what uncertain party grounds he was there.
The two distinct grounds are these: First, as I see it, there is the absolutely urgent and vital task of trying to revitalise the discussions about some real measure of international control, limitation and abolition of continuing peacetime explosions. For unless we do that, we run the risk of claiming more victims for these wretched weapons in peace time than might ever be claimed in a war in which they dare not be used. In doing that, get the whole impasse, the whole log-jam of international disarmament discussions moving again. I will come back to that in a moment. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If anybody on the benches opposite thinks that this is an argument which can be stated without a lot of difficulty and a lot of complication, he is entitled to try. I will do my best.
The second ground I ask the Prime Minister to consider for that part of our Amendment is this. There are circumstances in which some limited nuclear force is the only available redressor of an otherwise impossible situation, in which the Soviets possess all the cards, in their own overwhelming strength in the so-called conventional forces, and in their different attitude to human life and values. Since this is so, we must seek to discover and to maintain some line between what is essential for our purpose and what is not; what we retain as the ultimate deterrent and what we may have to use.
To talk grandly about nuclear deterrents, and to be prepared to use—as we seem in this White Paper to be doing, and as I thought the Minister seemed to be doing today—both the so-called tactical atomic weapons and the strategic deterrent, without having thought out any balance that we could hope to hold between those things, seems to me to be almost an act of criminal folly. We We dare not do that. It is not easy. We have to work this out. Therefore, we say in this part of our Amendment, not that we go back on past decisions, but that there is such a feeling, so much uncertainty, so many aspects which we have not yet worked out for ourselves; that we are unable—the Government or us—to put the full case; that, therefore, we

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should now decide to make one great effort to dislodge the whole log-jam and to try to get talks about two things, about the future of this matter and proposals on control and limitation and banning, which might be acceptable, and also about the sharing of know-how, sharing the knowledge of these matters, because that as much as anything else will affect our need to poison the atmosphere.
We certainly do not want to poison the atmosphere to collect samples of fallout to see how the thing works if we can get it from paper work which has already been done, or from samples which have already been taken. That would affect our decision to go on. I invite the Government to say to the other nations concerned that we will not post the notice of our explosions at Christmas Island at the same time as we post them our letter suggesting that we should try to get agreement on the heads to which I have referred, and also that we will not send it in the next post, but that we will give them some time to think over the matter to see whether there is room to do something.
At the very least, even supposing that the grand design did not work—and not all grand designs do work—we would have removed a great deal of the load of unhappiness from many of our people who feel that we should not blindly and desperately go on with our plans without trying something else. If we get something out of it, we might be relieved from going on with the test. I would not be a party, and we would not be parties, to this proposal if we felt that in any way it put an intolerable burden upon us, or was an insurmountable hazard in our way if, unhappily, we had to go on later. We are convinced that it does neither. We are convinced that what burden it would put upon us would be well worth while being in the scales against the enormous stakes which are on the other side.
I ask the Prime Minister, if we were not so committed, would anybody say that Sir William Penney really advised the Government that the only period in history when he could have his tests and do his work was in the period April to August, 1957; that he said it could not be the period August to April, 1957–58, or April to August, 1958, or some other time. Is there any magic in this present period? If, by suspension of tests there
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is no insuperable barrier to future tests the Government are well protected, and if by doing it we can give a great lead to our people and the world, would it not be worth setting against the irritations, discomforts and difficulties?
I am bound to say in my amateur way—and, of course, I am an amateur strategist—that I regard the outline of future defence policy as commended to us as being open to this valid criticism. For a long time, the Government have refused—we think obstinately—to face the nuclear realities. Now they have become so bemused by the word, and, perhaps, by the desire to use it for economy purposes, that they have rushed into an uncharted field and committed themselves to an enormous concept without having shown in their planning whether they have anything with which to back it. We need to make a most careful appraisal of the kind of forces and the kind of weapons which we need to be maintained if we are to have this deterrent approach to affairs.
That we have not yet done. It is no use for the Government to say that they have given us an outline of defence policy for the next three, five or seven years ahead. That policy will become apparent when they have done this work and thought out the answers to all these questions. Of course, it can be argued that this can lead us to conclusions which would limit the financial economies which could be immediately made. I have never disputed that. I have always said that in the kind of change-over in defence policy now needed, we would not get at once the money savings, but that they would accrue after a time rather than at the beginning. I am sure that those savings can be made, but just how soon and just how much would be deeply affected by the answers not only to the questions I have raised, but by integration with our allies, how much the Americans and other people would be willing to share with us, and so on.
In conclusion, if I have to commit myself, out of office, with none of the advice available to the Government, I think that I would prefer forces which were reached in this way, balanced forces which took these considerations into account and which would serve our needs and widen our prospects, rather than take the line of the Government. They

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have rushed many fences to get £79 million economies into this year. As a result, they have left us gravely unprepared for the risks that we can face, gravely overprepared for the one thing we never want to face and, meantime, have left us vastly dependent on other people for policy decisions of the gravest import to us. That is how the White Paper looks to us. That is why we shall invite the House to approve instead the Amendment.
I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
"declines to approve the Outline of Future Defence Policy, Command Paper No. 124, which, despite the waste of money and resources in the past five years due to repeated Government vacillation, still lacks the firm decisions essential to an effective defence policy; further regrets the undue dependence on the ultimate deterrent on which the policy set out in the White Paper appears to be based; and recognising that international disarmament is the only real solution to the problem of defence, and conscious of the dangers to humanity of the continuance of nuclear explosions, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to take an immediate initiative in putting forward effective proposals for the abolition of hydrogen-bomb tests through international agreement, meanwhile postponing the United Kingdom tests for a limited period so that the response to this initiative of the other Governments concerned may first be considered".
5.38 p.m.
Sir James Hutchison: A few of us from time to time go to places like Strasbourg and there discuss defence and other matters. Sometimes, those who are present at those discussions are very few, sometimes too few for the responsibility and duty upon their shoulders, not only to present the British point of view in foreign assemblies, but to bring back to this House the views which we there heard.
It is along those lines, at least to begin, that I should like to discuss the White Paper which is the subject of our examination today. Those of us who have recently been to Strasbourg were left in no doubt about the anxiety which remains in many Continental minds about the withdrawal of British troops from Western Germany.
We have a strong case. Our mistake was in not presenting it the right way round. The impression left in Continen-
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tal minds—and the one that was left in my mind; I was in no way cognisant of the fact that private discussions had taken place—was that we had made up our minds that we were going to take a certain line of action and went through the motions of taking part in discussions afterwards.
In talking with many of my Continental friends I heard most generous praise for the contribution made by Britain to the defence of the West, but my friends said: "Why, with this strong case, did you reverse the procedure to which you are a party in an agreement, by taking a decision and justifying it afterwards?" That is the action which I think was a mistaken one, and it has left a good deal of doubt and ill-feeling. Our Continental friends feel that we might do the same sort of thing in regard to our other obligations.
As my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have both said recently, N.A.T.O. is the heart and core of our whole defence policy, whether economic or military. We are bound to N.A.T.O. and to Western European Union, which is a nucleus within N.A.T.O, by a solemn treaty We must remember and respect the terms of our treaties and also respect the sensitivities of the other countries who are parties to the treaties.
At the moment N.A.T.O. is running a temperature. Many of its member countries believe that we are trying to draw out of our N.A.T.O. obligations and retire behind a kind of nuclear bastion in this country. That is a foolish conception, because they go on to say, "Why should not we all have nuclear weapons? Why should not we all have the ultimate deterrent? In an agreement of this kind we cannot have both first-class and second-class allies".
Paragraph 11 of the White Paper underlines the importance of integration going further. That is absolutely right, but it depends to a certain extent upon what is meant by integration. If every country were to have a little of all the weapons of defence and of all kinds of defence it would be extremely wasteful. What is desirable is that each of the contingents supplied by the contracting parties should be armed with the lesser atomic tactical weapons, such as the kiloton rocket, which I am told can now

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be fired from an Army lorry and which will fairly soon replace conventional artillery. That is in a different category.
I agree with the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) when he stresses the importance of clearing our minds upon the question whether we can lay down an area of differentiation between the minimum atomic weapons, the intermediate atomic weapons and the ultimate deterrent. That is a problem which we must face. It may be impossible of solution. It is certainly extremely difficult, but we must think about it.
Apart altogether from the minor tactical atomic weapons, it would be ridiculous and quite unnecessary for each of the component parts of Western European Union or N.A.T.O. to think that they must have a little of everything—of nuclear power, atomic power, naval forces. etc. Only the United States of America and Soviet Russia—if it is possible even for them—are strong enough in manpower and finance to be able to support all these methods of defence at the same time.
As in the case of research, the nations of N.A.T.O. will have to specialise. We are all dependent upon each other. With our relatively very small conventional forces on the Continent we are dependent upon French and German infantry and upon the other nations—the Belgians, the Dutch and the Italians—whose detachments go to make up the ground forces. Without them Western Europe would be over-run at once and what then would be the use of our having a nuclear deterrent and sitting back in this country, in the light of what we have heard from my right hon. Friend, namely, that this country is not defensible from attack by the ultimate deterrent, the nuclear bomb?
We are all dependent upon each other and our conceptions of defence must be dovetailed together. There is no need for any component of N.A.T.O. to develop an inferiority complex and to consider, because it has not got nuclear weapons and we have, that we are better off. We can provide an effective force only if we stand together and co-ordinate the whole of our defences.
We developed the H-bomb not particularly because we wanted it. I do not attach too much to the prestige argument. I do not believe that that is why we
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developed the bomb. We did it because, in a world conflagration, the United States might have a different idea about the first target to be attacked, or put a different value upon it. There can surely be no doubt between our Continental allies and ourselves as to when, where and how to strike, because their defence is ours and there cannot be the same arguments and differences of opinion as there might well be between ourselves and the United States of America. I hope that our Continental friends will not consider that we are taking a softer and easier line of defence than they are being asked to take because we alone have the H-bomb.
The White Paper recognises the importance of integration not only in the way that I have been trying to describe—in the integration of our defence policies —but in the matter of co-ordinated research, which is badly needed. It is good to hear that something is happening in that direction. A few weeks ago some of us went to a French research establishment at a place called Vernon and were there shown a guided missile called "Parca". We saw a film of what it was able to do and examined it carefully. It seemed to me to bear a very close resemblance to a ground-to-air guided missile which I had seen in a film, under conditions of great secrecy, at the War Office, three or four years ago. I asked my French friends how much it had cost to develop this weapon and they told me it had cost £10 million.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Did the hon. Member for Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison) say £10 million, or 10 million francs?
Sir J. Hutchison: They told me that it cost £10 million.
When I asked them whether there had been any consultation whatever upon the manufacture of the weapon I was told that there had been none. What a waste in scientists' time and of money! It cost £10 million to develop a weapon which seemed to me to be almost identical' to a weapon produced by us two or three years before—and I dare say that we were two or three years behind the United States in the development of our weapon.
Another sphere in which money is being wasted is in relation to the

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standardisation of the end-use items. I know that the Standing Committee on armaments is struggling to get something done, and that a number of agreements upon matters of lesser importance have been concluded, but the process has not gone far enough. I ask the House to think of the great increase in the efficiency of our forces if they were able to interchange everything that they needed. That is a Utopia which can scarcely come about. I ask the House to think of the saving there would be in the cost of production and supply of all the implements of war, and of all the simplification in what the Americans call logistics, or the bringing forward of one's requirements and supply needs along one's line of communication.
We have made very little headway in important items, and not a single end-item of importance which has been produced in a Continental country has been accepted by the United States. All our articles cannot be that much inferior. If America urges us to co-ordinate our production it must also pay its part. It must be a two-way and not a one-way traffic.
I wonder how many people in this country realise that each country which goes to make up the components of the N.A.T.O. forces has its own logistic line; that is to say, it has its own lines of communication, with its own type of equipment, running from bases to the places and the terrain where are its forces. There are Dutch, Belgian, British, American and French lines of supply.
I wonder how many people realise at what disadvantage that places the Supreme Commander. If he wanted to move a division from the south to the area of some other country, he would have either to extend the lines of supply of that division or unit—and thereby create complications in the extension and running of them across a possible line of attack or possible front—or else he would have to rely on the lines of communication and supply in the country into whose territory he was moving. The newcomer would be able to use practically none of its equipment.
The Commander-in-Chief of all the central European forces said that it made such a move very complicated indeed—I thought he was going to say that it
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would be very nearly impossible. Yet that is just the sort of move which would be needed in a battle; the moving of forces from south to north, or north to south, in order to reinforce a threatened area. Just think of the difference between the 175 Russian divisions, with all interchangeable pieces of equipment, and our hotch-potch of sizes of divisions and equipment and these lines of supply from which we have to suffer.
The next thing I would advocate is that the weight, size, mobility and fire-power of the divisions, or whatever unit is to be the standard unit of the West, must be more approximated to one another than they are at present. We have different sizes of divisions, different mobility and fire-power, according to the country which makes the division available.
There has been a little progress made in this matter, because the new German divisions are to be almost identical with the latest American thinking on the subject. An interesting feature, apart from increased mobility and fire-power, is that they are doing away with brigades and introducing instead combat groups, with staff responsible only for operation and training; and they are able to take a unit away from one combat group and add it to another easily and quickly, according to the needs of the tactical situation. That is a move which will have to become universal. I believe that we have to go in that direction.
I was interested to hear my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War say in a speech a few days ago that our thinking was tending towards the independent brigade group. That is even better than a combat group within a division. After all, we have to have these contingents or formations mobile, able to disperse and concentrate, and able to skip out of the way of the appalling effect of an atomic bomb with the maximum mobility which we can give them.
The Americans are extremely proud of their latest conception, the 101st Airborne Division. That is a complete division, able to be moved by air, along with medium-sized tanks and tactical atomic weapons. Of course, as a strategic reserve, that is a splendid thing to have at one's disposal, but I wonder what the airfield on which that division landed would look like. An immense

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concourse of aircraft would be required to move the whole division along with its equipment. Is it at all likely that such an airfield, with the clutter of aircraft landing on it and taking off from it, would escape an atomic bomb? It would be an ideal atomic target. There, as I see it, we have too big a unit. The conception of moving it by air with all its equipment is right, but it means moving too big a unit.
These are rather technical matters, and I wish now to turn to a political matter. I should like to say a word about the so-called "Gaitskell Plan" which was much discussed on the Continent recently. Whatever may be the advantages of a neutral belt running from the north to the south of Europe, including a neutralised and reunited Germany, the defence of the West under such circumstances would become impossible. I put that very question to General Valluy, who commands all the forces, land, sea and air, in Central Europe. He said, as I have just told the House, that if such a decision was come to, the defence of the West in the form of anything like our present conception would be impossible.
Already the present amount of terrain and the forces at his disposal are too small, and we were left in no doubt that the best we could hope for, even if our divisions were up to full strength—neither ours nor the French ones are, and the Germans are not yet there—would be to delay a full-scale Russian irruption until the atomic air strike took place. It is not a brilliant outlook—
Mr. Paget: if that is all we can do anyway, and I quite agree that it is, cannot we do it from France?
Sir J. Hutchison: But then, with our 30 divisions, we have the power to delay the enemy as they are crossing, or near to crossing, the German frontier; whereas if we have a neutral belt, which is vulnerable, with no opposition in that vast area, we should be starting to bottle up our airfields and our launching sites. We should be starting to create a number of worth while atomic targets in an ever smaller area, and the spread of a hydrogen or atomic bomb over all our airfields and launching sites now concentrated in France and the Low Countries would have a much more devastating effect than if the same attack took place—
Mr. Paget: But that does not seem to me to be altogether relevant. Whether it destroys us more easily or not does not much matter, if our only purpose there is to delay the enemy long enough for a counter atomic strike on Moscow and their other cities. If we had a neutral belt of about 800 miles I should have thought the passage of that neutral belt and then Germany and the Rhine would at least give time to get our deterrent bombers or rockets, whichever it may be, under way. As that is the only object of the operation in any case, it does not seem to me to matter much.
Sir J. Hutchison: I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman is leaving out of his calculation what I thought he tended to support; that it was possible to conceive of this war being fought with atomic weapons and the atomic strike being of less importance.
Mr. Hughes: Over Germany?
Sir J. Hutchison: Possibly over Germany, possibly in Germany. I agree that the German situation would not be a happy one, but neither is that of any country involved in atomic warfare.
It was the view of the General, and I quite agree, that such a decision would bottle up our airfields or launching sites in an ever smaller area and consequently would make them much more vulnerable, and more easily knocked out by the enemy.
Mr. Paget: I entirely agree with that. If the combatants are to face each other in Germany it should be possible to have a limited atomic war. If they are thousands of miles apart they would avoid a limited atomic war, especially if they have to cross an 800-mile neutralised area.
Sir J. Hutchison: I will take the hon. and learned Gentleman to discuss this matter with my friends. It cannot be done in question and answer across the Floor of the House of Commons, because it is too complicated for that.
In the meantime we have to pin our faith on the deterrent, and upon close co-operation and integration of the forces supplied by our other partners and allies in N.A.T.O. and the Western Union. We must continue to work for a world disarmament agreement.

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It is interesting to note that we have now reduced our forces to the figure which the Russians suggested for us in their last proposal. [An HON. MEMBER: "More"] I wonder why we did not use it then? It must have been a bargaining point which was missed. What we can say in the disarmament discussions is that we have now come down unilaterally to the figure that the Russians asked.
Mr. Hughes: To less.
Sir J. Hutchison: Slightly less.
Mr. Hughes: The Russians are prepared to allow us 600,000.
Sir J. Hutchison: Much of what I have said represents Continental thinking. It may be right or wrong. Those of us who attend Continental conferences should tell this House what the conferences are thinking. That is the reason why we are sent there. It is one of the minor justifications of our continuing to have representatives at Strasbourg and elsewhere.
6.2 p.m.
Mr. F. J. Bellenger: It is somewhat difficult to discuss the White Paper on Defence if one ignores foreign policy altogether, as the hon. Member for Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison) has found out. We should be out of order if we introduced foreign policy as such into the debate, nevertheless there is a certain amount of it in the White Paper.
The hon. Member for Scotstoun may have been right in his remarks about the tactical and strategical considerations of using certain weapons in Germany. When he touched upon what he was pleased to call the "Gaitskell Plan" I recalled that one of his previous leaders, Sir Anthony Eden, had something to do with a similar plan some time ago. The hon. Gentleman ignored the essence of that plan, which was not militarisation but demilitarisation.
I do not know what the generals might think of the territorial disadvantages of the plan. They would like to have the world in which to play their battle game, with modern high-speed bombers, and fighters. They cannot do that. When they had manoeuvres in Germany, as the Under-Secretary of State for War may know, they could not carry them out be-
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cause the area was too limited to enable them to put up their fighters to engage in the manoeuvres.
We have to keep our remarks in perspective. What is it? It is enshrined to a certain extent in the Amendment which my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) moved. The only thing that will be effective for complete protection—I think the Minister of Defence said this earlier today—is disarmament, complete disarmament. If it were possible to extend the neutral area of Switzerland right across Europe it might not give a military advantage to our commanders but it would at least keep the combatants farther apart, and that is the whole issue.
Eastern and Western Germany are so close together that an incident in one could cause serious warfare. If something happened in Eastern Germany such as happened in Hungary I cannot believe that West German military forces would be quiescent within their western boundaries. There would be the call of brother to brother, and it would lead to a wider area of conflict.
The field that lies open to us in considering the White Paper is immense. Is it within the ambit of our defence forces? That is in itself a commentary on the fallacy of many of the statements in the White Paper. Our own forces are completely incapable of protecting this country. I doubt whether any national force can, alone, protect its own nation. Therefore, we must act in association with somebody else. That is the essence of N.A.T.O. planning. The White Paper is taken today in isolation from N.A.T.O. planning.
As I listened to the Minister of Defence I got the impression that, instead of discussing the matter constructively, he was doing a dismantling operation on our defence forces. He was not doing a complete dismantling by clearing a site before rebuilding, such as hon. Members may have seen on the site in Pall Mall which used to contain the Carlton Club. Perhaps I shall understand the White Paper a little better when the Service Ministers tell us how they fit into the plan. We are at a great disadvantage because we do not know what the Services will offer us. The White Paper tells us the plan, but the plan can only be put into proper perspective when the

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War Office, the Navy and the Royal Air Force tell us exactly how they will translate many of the sentences in the White Paper into actual practice.
With all our disabilities, we must try to see what is behind the mind of the Minister of Defence. I am not against a lot of his dismantling, which should have been done long ago. Anti-aircraft Command, as I have often said, should have been dismantled long before the Prime Minister did it. Much of the pulling down which the Minister of Defence is now proposing is vitally necessary if we are to prepare for an efficient, small and really capable defence force.
When I say "defence force" I mean one defence force in the future. How long it will be in materialising I do not know. We shall not have these three autonomous defence forces, the Navy, the Army, and the Royal Air Force for ever. I welcome that, if that is in the right hon. Gentleman's mind. He talked this afternoon in easy phrases about a strong, central reserve in this country, with adequate air transport to move troops speedily to the seat of trouble, yet when I asked him how much of these defence forces he could move at present in that manner he retired behind his barricade of security.
The right hon. Gentleman is the last Member in this House to do that. We all remember how, just before the war broke out, the right hon. Gentleman endeavoured to tell the country how totally unprepared our air defences were. Just as he tries to do with us today, the War Office brought all the panoply of discipline and security down on his head. He was a young officer in the Territorial Army and subject to the Army Act. They endeavoured to court-martial him. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to face these questions today. They are not meant to be destructive. We are trying to test whether his words have any real meaning. If they have, I shall be the first to give him credit for them. My impression, gained from reading this White Paper, is that much of this dismantling is being done in panic and that we have nothing to put in its place except, as the right hon. Gentleman told us today, the ultimate deterrent.
I am one who believes that under present conditions we have to possess the ultimate deterrent. This afternoon the
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right hon Gentleman read resolutions passed by the Labour Party, to which I belong and which I support today without any reservation whatever. I do that for this reason—that we cannot protect ourselves in isolation from the possible forces of aggression. What are they? The biggest force of aggression is Russia. If Russia has the ultimate deterrent, I say that the only way to counter her is to have the same deterrent because, if we do not have it, we lay ourselves open to the possibility of Russia using that on us and extinguishing us. Where would all our glib talk about national defence be then?
Let us not forget that only a little while ago Mr. Khrushchev warned us, at the time of Suez—it might have been an idle threat, but he used it—that it might be necessary to use ballistic missiles upon this country in order, as he said, to stop us waging war in Suez. There might be other circumstances in which that gentleman, like Mr. Hitler, would know no limits and use that deterrent on us. In so far as our missile would be any counter to that threat, I say that we have got to have it. That brings me inevitably to the question of tests. I can only say this, if I may be frank and honest in the matter.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Go on.
Mr. Bellenger: I am afraid that my mind does not work so quickly on these matters as does the mind of my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). Perhaps it is not so made up as his mind may be. I hope that he will be patient with me and allow me to express my opinions more briefly, I hope, than my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper did from the Front Bench this afternoon. I agree to this extent with the Amendment, that we should do away with the tests for reasons which there is no need for me to go into. I would agree to stop ours for a limited period, but not if I thought that that would prejudice us as against Russia. I cannot ignore the fact that Russia is carrying out her tests almost every week.
In that respect, I am bound to say that some of the statements that I hear made, not only in political parties but elsewhere, seem, if not hypocritical, to avoid the point. I want to refer in this House this afternoon to something which I read in

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The Times this morning. It was a statement made by a gentleman who used to be an hon. Member of this House and who is now vice-chairman of the Labour Party Executive, Mr. Tom Driberg. He has been writing, according to The Times, in the Moscow News, of all papers. He writes that:
"The time is short. The exact date of the tests is secret. …"
It is our tests, he means, not the Russian tests—
"They may take place quite soon. But it may yet be possible by international and domestic pressure, to persuade the British Government to accept the Soviet suggestion that, at least, tests be suspended at once for an agreed period."
I hope that Mr. Driberg will accept the British suggestion—the suggestion of his own party, which has been tabled this afternoon—that those tests should be limited. I hope he will go further than that and say to the Russians, "If we are to stop our tests, you must stop yours at once."
Mr. Victor Yates: They agreed on that.
Mr. Bellenger: Of course, we all agree—
Mr. Yates: They agreed.
Mr. Bellenger: —but many of us omit to say so, including the vice-chairman of the Labour Party, who has been writing with all the facilities that Moscow can give to him—and his friends in Moscow, traitors to this country—in a Russian newspaper. I speak feelingly about that because I want hon. Members on either side of the House to be quite certain where I, at least, stand. Any hon. Member who wants to do so can put his point of view. Hon. Members may think that we are misguided or divided in our views on this matter of the tests. I would only stop our tests for a limited time, as the Amendment says, provided that the Russians stop their tests too. We have not heard any response from the Russians so far.
I say one other thing to the Minister of Defence, on the question of air transport to move strong central reserves, as he called them. He will not tell us what we have got because, he says, security will not permit him to do so. I do not believe that for a moment. I believe it
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is merely a facade hiding the fact that we have not got the air transport to move these strong central reserves just now. Therefore, all his fine talk about his plans for creating those reserves falls to the ground because he cannot transport them. If hon. Members want an illustration of that, let them consider, as many military minds are considering at present, how we flew our forces into Suez for a limited operation. There has been widespread criticism about the inefficiency of the air transport there.
Mr. Sandys: I should like to make clear that, in the first place, this is a five-year plan, secondly, that I have never claimed that we have got what I consider to be an adequate Transport Command at present to carry the number of troops at the speed which would be necessary at this moment. I have never claimed that; what I am claiming is that it is our determined policy to have it. We are building it up. We are ordering further aircraft to do so and I regard that as one of the linchpins of the whole policy.
Mr. Bellenger: I accept that from the point of view of long-term policy, but I cannot forget that year after year, in debates on the Service Estimates and on White Papers, we have been pursuing this point, and previous Defence Ministers have been telling us exactly the same. Surely the right hon. Gentleman must agree that our questions to him now are very much to the point. By saying what he just said, he has made a criticism of his own Government that they have not been providing these facilities. After all, they have been in power for about six years. The House has voted all the money for which they asked, yet today the right hon. Gentleman has to come to the Dispatch Box and admit that he has not got sufficient air transport to move the forces he wants but that he may have sufficient in two, three, four or five years.
Mr. Sandys: As I said, this is a five-year plan. We have not yet made these great reductions in the forces overseas. When we do make those reductions, of course it will be very much more important to be able to move the reinforcements from the central reserves. So long as we have forces—close on 700,000—dotted all over the world in larger numbers than we think necessary, the importance of being able to move reinforcements from

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Britain is not so great, The basis of the policy is to be able to reduce the total number of our forces and garrisons in reserve overseas and it will be absolutely essential to have a reserve in a high state of readiness in this country, and the means of moving it rapidly by air.
Mr. Bellenger: I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman. What he is saying, in effect, is that we have large numbers of forces overseas. We had larger numbers three or four years ago. What about the Egyptian commitment? We were told then that if only we could reduce our commitment there we could reduce our forces and without such a commitment, of course, we could handle the problem of transporting them. If the right hon. Gentleman does much more reconstructing he will get the forces down to a size at which he will not need as many aircraft to transport them. He will have enough to be able to do it with the aircraft in hand.
Although the right hon. Gentleman may be telling us something about his five-year plan, he is telling us about the end of that plan. Unfortunately, the defences of this country must be maintained in the meantime. They must be as adequate as possible to protect our people from any aggression with which they may be assailed. My conclusion from listening to the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon and from reading his White Paper is that he came into office, saw how overloaded and extravagant were all the Service Departments, and decided to cut. He was the surgeon diagnosing the disease in the Service Departments, and he has cut ruthlessly. He is only doing what the Prime Minister did when he was Minister of Defence. There is a great co-operation between the two, as there should be.
That is all very well, but surely the right hon. Gentleman will not deny us the right to say that all this time we have been criticising this extravagance, and that it is only now that he has come to his present conclusions. He said nothing today about Civil Defence, although it is mentioned in the White Paper. In paragraph 12 it is stated,
"It must be frankly recognised that there is at present no means of providing adequate protection for the people."
In paragraph 18 it is stated,
"While available resources should as far as possible be concentrated on building up an
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active deterrent power … civil defence must accordingly play an essential part in the defence plan."
It is only a year or two ago that the Home Secretary stood at the Box explaining his Civil Defence measures and talking about moving 12 million people in this country under the impact of nuclear attack. Will the right hon. Gentleman or someone else on the Government Benches answer this question: where are the Government's Civil Defence plans today? Parliament is being asked to spend large sums of money on a so-called plan, but have the Civil Defence plans gone overboard? Is it the Government's policy to move 12 million people from one part of the country to another under nuclear attack? Unless we have an answer to that question, what are we to think of the White Paper other than that it is a collection of bits and pieces, a jigsaw puzzle, which none of us can put into proper shape?
In answer to a Question which I put to him recently about integration and joint staff training, the right hon. Gentleman asked me to give him any ideas I had He did not put it in that form but he said he would be pleased to receive any ideas. I should not be surprised, especially after listening to him today, if at some time he wants a supreme commander for the much smaller integrated forces. The Under-Secretary of State for Air shakes his head vigorously. I expect him to do so, and I expect the Under-Secretary of State for the War Office, who is also present, to shake his head, too, if they follow the vested interests of their own Ministries.
Make no mistake about it: there is already considerable resistance in the Service Departments to the right hon. Gentleman's plans. Who knows why his predecessor was not reappointed when the Government were changed? I have heard it suggested that one reason was that he would not agree to the economies. He is not to speak today and to give us the benefit of his advice. It is remarkable what paucity of what we might call expert evidence is being offered to the House today by Ministers in charge of Service Departments.
What is the reason? This is the reason—and let them deny it if they can: they have not made up their minds what is to happen to the patient whom the right hon.

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Gentleman the surgeon has operated on so rapidly. That is why we have not the Service Estimates before us. The Service Ministries are unable to put before the House a coherent plan to fit into the terms of the right hon. Gentleman's White Paper.
I tell the Service Ministers sitting on the benches opposite that they will have to stand up to some of the vested interests in their Departments. After all, the Minister of Defence is doing some of their dirty work for them; he has told us today that considerable numbers of the middle ranks will have to be "bowler hatted"—and by a Conservative Government at that. What would have been said if it had been a Labour Government doing that?
It is, of course, inevitable that it should be done, once we take the step which the right hon. Gentleman has taken, but why not go a step further? If we are to have an efficient defence force, comparatively speaking a small one—375,000 men—compared with pre-war figures, the right hon. Gentleman will want a supreme commander. Why should he not have one? We had one when we were fighting the war in the Far East. There was a supreme commander when we invaded Normandy. He will have to reach that conclusion. The right hon. Gentleman asks my opinion, and I tell him that from the decision to appoint a supreme commander will flow a great deal of efficient, co-ordinated, integrated staff planning and staff training.
May I ask the Service Ministers—I know they will not answer—whether they have their war manuals ready? Do they know how they would go to war if they were involved in hostilities? I venture to suggest that not one of the Departments, including the right hon. Gentleman's own Department, has its war manual so complete that it could build up an efficient force able to give a good account of itself if we were involved in war.
Some hon. Members may say that all these matters are trivial, but hon. Members with any military experience will know that they are the basis on which the Service Departments work. Think what would happen if by chance war broke out as it broke out in 1914 and 1939. We have seen it happen in our
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lifetime. We do not know how long notice we should get. If it happens, how will the military machine go into operation? I suggest to the House that the military machine is so disorganised at the moment that it would not be able to go into action effectively—and that is the measure and the test of the Defence White Paper which we must put to the right hon. Gentleman.
Having taken part in many defence debates in the House and having had some limited experience in charge of a military Department, I feel that it is impossible this afternoon for me to assess in any measured way the impact of the White Paper on the defence forces. It boils down to this: the only defence we have at the moment is the ultimate weapon, plus the nuclear weapons which are being granted to us by America. To that extent we are dependent on America. I say nothing about that, for I think it is inevitable. We must be allied with America, otherwise we are in a hopeless position.
I do not place much reliance on many of our other allies. One of the reasons why I supported the rearmament of Germany was that I knew that at least we should get an efficient fighting machine there, and if we want efficient fighting machines we would do better to look for them in the places where they are to be found. I regret to say that some of our allies today are broken reeds. They would not be able to withstand the impact of the forces which we would have to meet.
I therefore accept the position that we have to be allied to America and to take what they can give us from their arsenal until we can provide some weapons which will give us some umbrella to put over our own heads. If it rains in the meantime, I do not mind whose umbrella it is so long as I have some protection, and that is the protection which America offers us today. Although they may be difficult people to deal with, I would far rather deal with them than with the Russians.
I say to hon. Members who have been in this House for many years, both before the war and during the war, and who are seriously concerned with the defence of their country and not concerned purely to make party capital about it, that I fear that today our defences are not as strong

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as this White Paper would have us believe. If that is a criticism of their own Government, it has to be made. Let some hon. Members opposite remember that they have not been afraid in the past to make constructive criticisms of their own Government, if need be. I invite them to do the same today. They may not be able to go into the same Lobby with us tomorrow night, but I ask them to be as frank with the House as I have been, and as was my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper.
6.31 p.m.
Mr. J. A. Leavey: I very much enjoyed the speech which we have just heard from the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger). There is much in it with which I agree, and also much in it with which I do not agree, but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not think me discourteous if I do not debate with him, because I wish to take rather a different line. I should, however, like to pursue the last suggestion which he made, which was the suggestion he made to the whole House that we should be frank about this matter and accept the very heavy responsibilities which rest upon all of us.
Rather than debate with the right hon. Gentleman, I prefer to limit myself to one or two general observations about the situation which, as I see it, will face this country in the period which is considered in this White Paper, and particularly the period after the five years mentioned, which is after 1962. Before doing so, I should like to express my welcome for the proposals in the White Paper, and I would say to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence that if my welcome is a cautious one, it is none the less sincere for that.
I welcome the White Paper because I believe it is realistic. If ever there was a situation which called for realism, it is the situation in which this country and its allies find themselves at this time. I suppose it can always be said that realism is desirable, and realism was certainly the first thing which occurred to me on reading my right hon. Friend's approach to this problem. I welcome it further because I believe, and I am in some conflict here with the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw, that it gives a lead to our allies.
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I am quite aware of the discord which has resulted from the publication of the White Paper in N.A.T.O., but I believe that, in all our relations with our fellow men and with other countries and with our allies, it is very often necessary that there should be that shock. Indeed, we have heard the word "jerk" used repeatedly in his speech by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown). I do not think that lasting damage necessary flows from savage action, and it was savage action that led to the language we see in the White Paper. I welcome it, because I believe we are cutting our coat according to our cloth. Admittedly, it is a fair criticism to ask which came first—the chicken or the egg; for it is not clear from the White Paper whether it was a very careful re-assessment of our obligations and liabilities and then a decision to fit the forces to meet them, or whether a decision was first taken that only so much of the national wealth could be afforded and therefore the commitments had to be adjusted.
Finally, I welcome it because I believe it is a document which states quite clearly the Government's intentions and faces up to the theories and the facts as they are to be seen at this time. We see from time to time in the publication of White Papers a sort of tribal language only understood by members of the tribe, but here we have language which everyone can understand, and on an issue of such vast significance that is not a minor quality. Of course, hon. and right hon. Gentlemen have said it already, and indeed it will be said many times in the course of the debate, that there are going to be vast difficulties. They will take the form of human problems, economic problems and political problems, technical difficulties and strategic problems. I do not propose to dwell upon these, but I will make a brief reference to something which occurs to me which will be of special concern at least in the Army.
Apparently, we are to require a permanent, Regular volunteer force of about 165,000 men. I hope nobody will seriously question the general observation that in this country, when there is no immediate or obvious prospect of war, the British nation is bored with its Armed Services and is disinterested. A career in the Armed Services always makes very little appeal to young men,

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and to a lesser degree to young women, and I do not know that that is something of which we should be ashamed. It may be that we should be proud of the fact.
I suppose that it is one of the few occupations in which one virtually never does what one is employed and trained to do, namely fight. However efficient a man may be as a professional soldier, he hopes that there will not be war and that he will not be called upon to do the one thing which he is trained and paid to do. Therefore, in the military art, one is continually standing and waiting, and that is perhaps demoralising, and may be one reason why we have never found it easy to muster large military forces.
There is also the problem, as I see it, that if we are to get the men we require, clearly we have got to offer them interesting pay scales, but, more important, amenities. I believe that the problem will face us in future, as it faces us today in the Rhine Army. The more amenities we provide, the more we tend to limit the military effectiveness of that force.
In the Rhine Army today and in the Second Tactical Air Force we have two very fine military weapons, but I venture to put it to the House that because of these amenities, which have to be there if we are to attract men into the Services, these forces would fight rather less well if their wives and families were, under conditions of war, almost certain to be refugees. I know that it will be said that in the last war our homes were bombed and so on, but that is not the same problem, and I believe that it will remain a problem so long as we have to offer, as we ought to offer, substantial amenities in order to attract people into our Services.
There is also the problem which has been touched upon by one of my hon. Friends concerning standardisation, and I think it is a very fair criticism of the failure to co-operate in a wider sphere that today in N.A.T.O. we have so little standardisation. It would seem that in an integrated force of that sort, a great deal of effort, good will and intelligence is being displayed in getting integration, and I think that the former Commander-in-Chief deserves great credit for that. None the less, I think it is a fair criticism that we have not reached the same standardisation which we might expect, to
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which reference has been made, and that is going to be the problem in future and perhaps a more acute problem in the range of weapons which we are now considering.
I think that in Germany itself we also have a problem. I hesitate to make criticisms which perhaps will be misunderstood, but I believe that in Germany we will find that this race, which is already almost the industrial master in Europe and which has certain characteristics which I find alarming, will present serious problems to us, their allies, in the years ahead.
Indeed, I believe it is recognised by the German people and amongst the leaders in Germany that perhaps they cannot trust themselves in their tendency to be a militant people. That doubt is perhaps more strongly implanted in their present leaders than it is in those of us who must confess to some suspicions and doubts.
Dr. Barnett Stross: Would the hon. Member not agree that there is another reason why the Germans feel diffident, nervous and unhappy: namely, that they feel it is almost certain that an atomic war may be fought over their land, and they remember what the last war did to them without atomic weapons?
Mr. Leavey: It is reasonable that intelligent people would in any circumstances be apprehensive if they were to be in any way involved in a war using nuclear weapons. I would not have said that that was unique to the Germans. Of course, there is the possibility as military strategy is developing that their country will be a battlefield, but I do not believe that that is any more a grave danger for the Germans than it is for the people of these islands. Therefore, to that extent, I would not accept the hon. Member's qualification.
Assuming that these are difficulties which are to be faced and overcome, difficulties which will be repeated in all the Services, I believe that there is one overwhelming problem and one vital question which must be asked and must be answered. It is not—and here I claim the indulgence of the House—something which we can consider as an issue between one party and another, or between one nation and another.

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Since the war, since the annihilating effects of nuclear weapons have become known, we have seen America, the Soviet Union and ourselves developing what we have called the ultimate deterrent. We have seen our defence strategy built around it. That has been given more vivid emphasis in the White Paper than, perhaps, ever before, and it is very largely the matter which we have been discussing so far.
This is the question which I must pose and to which, I confess, I cannot give the answer. Ultimately, policy must result in physical action. Plans must result in somebody taking action on the ground. I wonder very much whether anyone who holds supreme authority today, or may at some future date exercise supreme authority, in the world as it must be in the next decade, in a democratic community such as we are going to have—thank goodness—can envisage that the man, or the Government or Cabinet, exists or can exist which, when the time comes, will have the courage or be able to take the decision to press the button to let off the ultimate deterrent.
I realise that the basis of our approach is that it will never need to be used. Are we, therefore, assuming that this whole policy, the policy of our United States allies and the defence or aggressive policy of the Soviet Union, is based on a gigantic bluff? If it is, I think we must accept the possibility that our potential enemies will be making an assessment of our moral strength.
Things do not stand still. What we are doing and planning, and what our potential enemies are doing and planning, is very much the concern, in our case, of our allies. I therefore wonder very much whether on a certain day or night or afternoon in the future, 500 yards from here, where the seat of Government really resides, a situation can ever exist when it is decided that all this human effort, all the material resources and the expenditure which has been incurred will, in fact, be employed as they have been designed to be employed. I hope that the courage and the singleness of purpose will exist, but we do not know. As I have said, I claim the indulgence of the House in putting a question which I cannot answer.
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I realise that there will be those who ask whether that is not the argument for giving up and for not having the ultimate deterrent. I realise, too, that many other hon. Members wish to speak and I am anxious not to detain the House long, but having posed that question and invited the counter-suggestion that in the long run, and, therefore, in the ultimate, this approach is unsound, I must say quite clearly that I believe that the second choice is much worse than the first one that this policy poses.
There is an old Chinese proverb, which will be known to some hon. Members, which says that there are twenty ways of escaping but the best is still to run away. I believe that the second decision is to run away, because a much worse alternative is posed. The damage which may be done to future generations—that unknown quantity which is causing such grave anxiety to so many people—can be compared with something infinitely worse: in other words, to be without the power to strike back is, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence suggested, to subject the nation to the most grotesque form of blackmail.
If I have to admit that we are faced with a choice of evils, I believe that the line we are choosing, while is it fair to describe it as negative, is the only line we can take. If that be another good reason for supporting the White Paper, I am quite prepared to stand by it.
6.47 p.m.
Mr. Clement Davies: Since the speech of the Minister of Defence, we have heard some very interesting speeches raising a number of points which at other times and in other circumstances would be of real importance but which, in view of the major point which is brought out so clearly in the White Paper, pale into insignificance.
That is why I want to begin by thanking the Minister of Defence, not only for his speech, but for the White Paper. I understand that it was written entirely by himself. It is clear, definite and concise, and for the first time it stresses in cold print a matter to which many of us have been trying to direct the attention of the House and of people outside for a very long time. Particularly has that matter been stressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill).

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Time and time again, the right hon. Gentleman has used his great powers to direct public attention to the position to which humanity is being driven by science and politics. One may refer back to one of his great books, written as long ago as 1923 or 1924, in which his words were almost prophetic about what would be happening between 1939 and 1945, and certainly about what will happen should the third world war fall upon us. It is for that reason that I am particularly grateful to the Minister of Defence. He sets out in a few words the true position, not only of this country but of every country in the world.
For a long time, it has been clear that the traditional ideas, methods and measures which mankind has pursued for centuries are no longer applicable. The past is completely dead. At the beginning of the Second World War, that very great general, Lord Milne, delivered a speech to a number of Members of the House of Commons in which he pointed out that the major principles of strategy had not changed in the slightest from the days of Alexander, Hannibal or Caesar, through the Napoleonic era down to the 1914–18 War. In my talks with those who were responsible for our strategy in the last war and to whom we owe our safety, they have agreed with Lord Milne that that was the position until the coming of the atom bomb.
The whole position is now changed. Those axioms which were settled and accepted throughout the centuries are of no value whatsoever today. The position of mankind has been completely altered by the advent of—I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we should use one simple expression—the hydrogen bomb. Long before the invention of that bomb, it was realised that no one country was able to be quite sure of defending itself successfully against aggression. There was, therefore, throughout the world a seeking for allies. I remember it well, even before the 1914 War. At the time when the tripartite arrangement had been made between Germany, Austria and Italy, there was then the question, who were our friends and who were France's friends? It became abundantly clear in 1947, when Russia began to rise in her might against the rest of the world, that no nation could any longer be in a position to defend itself. That is why in
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1948 we at once began seeking for allies. We formed N.A.T.O. and S.E.A.T.O. There was the Pacific Alliance between America, Australia and New Zealand, and finally there came the Bagdad Pact. All these alliances emphasised our individual weakness and reminded us that it was necessary to combine together in order to defend ourselves against any attack which might come.
What has always puzzled me is that, while we agree that we must have a common policy of defence, we continue to have separate foreign policies in each country. How often have I heard it hurled across the Floor of the Chamber that we in this country are now being led by America, implying that that is something dreadful in itself and that we ought to have our own foreign policy. I should have thought that, from the moment we had agreed that we were not in a position to defend ourselves, there ought to have been a unified foreign policy—one policy and only one policy. It is obvious that any particular country following its own foreign policy as it pleases may, in so doing, endanger the position of all the others. We came very near such a situation during the last few months. That is why it is essential that stress—if stress has to be laid upon what I still regard as the smaller matters—should be laid upon the need for integration of the free countries, to which the right hon. Gentleman very rightly called attention.
The Minister said that he thought it was possible to have limited wars within a small area, although he admitted that it was possible that they might easily extend until we had a major world clash. The possibility of having such limited wars is becoming less day by day as the means of spreading information become more and more efficient. News is general and universal; it is no longer confined to any particular place where a disturbance takes place. It used to be our boast that from the defeat of Napoleon in 1815 until 1914 this country had maintained the peace of the world, except for a short period of two years when the Crimean War was fought. It was said that we had maintained the "Pax Britannica." But every year without exception throughout that period there was what we have called the small wars, the kind of thing to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. That might

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have occurred in the Victorian era. It is much too dangerous to rely upon the possibility that the spark of such a conflict could be confined within a small area today.
I should have thought that our own experience would have shown us that. A shot in Sarajevo started off the major clash of 1914–18. It may be that we turned our backs upon the invasion of Austria and Czechoslovakia, but the invasion of Poland brought the major clash. None of us can be sure that the smaller war may not easily develop into the bigger war. I ask the Minister of Defence not to rely too much upon confining one's attention to conventional weapons or tactical nuclear weapons, the use of any one of which may within a week, or even within a day, lead to the use of the major weapons which will bring destruction upon the world.
The right hon. Gentleman has put boldly and clearly not only our position but the position of the world. The principal duty of any Government today and throughout history has been to protect the individual against every outside threat. The right hon. Gentleman said today, and made it abundantly clear in the White Paper, that the Government is no longer able to carry out that prime main duty. What is true of this country is true of every other country in the world, and there is not a single exception. In paragraph 10 of the White Paper, the Minister very right calls attention to the fact that
"The growth in the power of weapons of mass destruction has emphasised the fact"—
I am glad he uses the word "emphasised" because the need was known already, but needed emphasis—
"that no country can any longer protect itself in isolation. The defence of Britain is possible only as part of the collective defence of the free world."
I quite agree. That is why I should have thought it right for the Minister to go on, if it were within the province of the right hon. Gentleman to do so, and say that, for that reason, the free world ought to have one common policy and not merely one common defence.
The position is made much clearer in paragraph 12:
"It must be frankly recognised that there is at present no means of providing adequate protection for the people of this country against the consequences of an attack with nuclear weapons."
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In that one sentence, the right hon. Gentleman calls the attention of the whole world to the position in which humanity stands today.
That is where we have been brought by our great scientists and by the policy which Governments throughout the world are still pursuing. They are living in a past age. The new era is here upon us and new ideas have to be brought to bear in order to save humanity. That is the true position.
What the right hon. Gentleman said a little later emphasised even more clearly to us in Britain the true position. That was his reference to the Navy. We have depended in this country upon our Navy ever since Tudor days, ever since Queen Elizabeth I. It saved us at that time. It saved us against the aggression of Louis XIV. It saved us again during the Napoleonic period. It kept us alive during the two major wars; otherwise we would have starved from lack of food.
The right hon. Gentleman very rightly points out today that in this atomic age the Navy is of no use whatsoever if the world war comes upon us, unless, as he points out, perchance a few more of us live for a little longer than he can anticipate at the moment, in which case the Navy will be needed to bring us food. That is the position to which we have been reduced. That, to my mind, is the major point which has been brought out so clearly by the White Paper and by what the right hon. Gentleman has said.
In the meantime these bombs are still being made and still being tested. The manufacture of them is one thing and the testing of them—and this is where I differ from the right hon. Gentleman—is another. The matter arising from the testing of them was brought to my attention first and to that of certain other hon. Members of this House by Professor Hadow, a very remarkable man, who is the head, as he has been for many years, of the Chester-Beatty Cancer Research Institute. He wrote a letter to The Times early in 1955, as a result of which some of us who belong to the Association. of Parliamentarians for World Government, to which I am proud to say well over 100 Members of all parties in this House belong, together with a number from the other House, asked him to address us, which he did. I had the honour of being

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in the chair. He told us that one could not be definite about these matters.
He told us at that time that scientists were able, even with regard to the hydrogen bomb, to assess accurately the direct effect of any one of those bombs or, indeed, the direct effect of any missile, but what they were unable to assess was the indirect effect of the hydrogen bomb. He went so far as to say that a number of scientists held the view that the damage caused by those bombs was not limited either in time or in space. What a terribly frightening statement that was. As a result, hon. Members who heard him speak suggested that it might be possible to hold a conference of world scientists. He welcomed it in words which I well recall. He said that scientists spoke the same language the world over and they were just as anxious to impart information as to get information. He thought that even the Russian scientists would be willing to join in such a conference.
At the request of my colleagues, I went to see the then Foreign Secretary, Sir Anthony Eden, and I told him the whole of the story as it had been told by this great scientist and asked him whether he would not move on behalf of the Government to summon a world meeting of scientists. His reply was negative, for two reasons. First, he thought that the Russians would not come, and secondly he thought that secret information might be given to them. I ventured to point out that no one has a monopoly of science and that no one knows who was the true inventor of any particular scientific method. No one can tell us with absolute definiteness who was the inventor of X-rays, whether it was Sir William Briggs or Röntgen. I understand that this is largely a matter of mathematics and that these great people work on the same matter and might arrive at the same conclusion together.
A refusal came from the Government. We were just a few Members of Parliament. We nevertheless decided that, although we had no money, we would do our best to get the scientists to come. The London County Council helped us by lending its building. The scientists came, I believe from over thirty countries, at their own expense. They included four of the leading Russian scientists. I was
1824
told by our own scientists—and two attended from Harwell—that the Russians were as forthcoming as any of the scientists who attended the conference. Without a single exception, they called attention to the fact that the danger arising from the testing of these bombs in time of peace was exactly the same, indirectly, as it would be from their use in time of war.
Like the Prime Minister, I am no scientist, so I did not preside over the conference. It was presided over by another great scientist whom we have in this House and whom we all deeply respect, namely the right hon. Gentleman the hon. Member for Kelvingrove (Mr. Walter Elliot). I draw attention to this and ask whether it is necessary now to go on pursuing one's own way without knowing what damage it might cause at this particular moment. The Minister says sincerely, "I do not want to use these bombs at all. I do not want to use them in war." Then why use them in time of peace when we may be doing damage, to which, in the words of Professor Hadow, we know not whether in the damage done to humanity there is a limit in either space or time?
I gather that the Prime Minister will be speaking tomorrow. Will he tell the House what is the attitude of Her Majesty's Government to Mr. Stassen's proposals? I understand that Mr. Stassen is now putting forward proposals which say, "We will stop manufacturing these bombs if you will stop doing so in Russia. We will keep the stocks we have, but we will stop all tests and will set up a form of control which will see to it that no more are manufactured and no more let off." What answer have Her Majesty's Government to that? The White Paper and the speech of the Minister of Defence today have pointed out how necessary it is that we should combine together and how not one of us can afford to take action on his own. We have seen the effect of going off in this way on one's own.
It was the Labour Government that started in this way in 1950. Although the N.A.T.O. Agreement had been signed in 1948, they decided, on their own, and without even informing the Leader of the Opposition—which is the usual thing to do—that they were doing so. They decided

1825
that they would also go in for these nuclear weapons. They set aside £100 million—which was a very big sum in those days—for the purpose. As far as we know, they did that without informing any of their colleagues in N.A.T.O. who would certainly have been affected.
What is happening today? As more and more attention is drawn to this matter, Governments and countries are getting more and more uneasy. We have seen what Herr Adenauer has said he would do, and what reaction came at once from German scientists. This is the first time in my knowledge and recollection that a German, scientist or otherwise, has put world and human considerations outside before the fact that he is a German. I well remember August, 1914, when it was thought that the German Socialists might not co-operate in the war which had been caused by the Kaiser and his satellites, but the answer that was made by the leader of the Socialists at that time was, "I am a German first and foremost and only secondarily am I a Socialist." That must have been said again and again during the time of Hitler, but now we have a position in which German scientists are saying, "No, we are part of humanity and we are asking for a reconsideration of this matter." That is the position facing us today. Nobody knows that better than Her Majesty's Government, and nobody has put the alternative more clearly than have Members of Her Majesty's Government.
The Minister of Defence referred to this today. He refers to it also in the White Paper, in which he says that until there is complete disarmament we have, unfortunately, to rely upon our power of retaliation. In other words, war is prevented by the fact that one nation fears that its opponent may be more efficient than itself and may be able to throw more of these weapons more quickly and more effectively. That is our position.
This is what has happened in my lifetime. I remember the years before the 1914–18 War. That era was one of optimism, of confidence and of expansion. The present era is one of fear, and fear everywhere throughout the whole world. We do not know whether this civilisation which has taken centuries to build will be allowed to go on or will be destroyed overnight. How clear that was made to
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the house by the Prime Minister, speaking, as I knew he would have to speak, as the Minister of Defence under the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford. That has been the view of the right hon. Gentleman for Woodford, as I know, for a couple of generations. It has certainly been his view since the end of the 1914–18 war.
The present Prime Minister, on 2nd March, 1955, in a similar debate to this, replied to a speech of mine, following much the same line as I have done today, only that I did not then have the clear statement which has now been made by the Minister of Defence. The right hon. Gentleman said in reply to me, speaking as the then Minister of Defence,
"On the whole question of disarmament, our purpose is simple and our record is clear. Genuine disarmament must be based on two simple but vital principles. It must be comprehensive and it must provide a proper system of control. It must be comprehensive, by which I mean that it must include all weapons, new and old, conventional and unconventional. The control must provide effective international, or if we like supranational, authority invested with Teal power. Hon. Members may say that this is elevating the United Nations, or whatever may be the authority, into something like world government. Be it so, it is none the worse for that. In the long run this is the only way out for mankind."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd March, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 2181.]
Those are the Prime Minister's words. Nothing has since been done.
The United Nations Assembly and the Security Council have not fulfilled the great objectives which we thought they would fulfil when the Charter was drawn up in 1944. Those responsible knew then that they were not providing for all time. It was only a beginning. They knew that a time would come when humanity would be moving along and would require major amendments to be made to the Charter.
In 1955, in its tenth year, and in accordance with the appropriate Article in the Charter, the Assembly decided almost unanimously that a committee should be set up to look into all the proposals for amending and strengthening the Charter and making it really workable in the interest of humanity. The committee was to report back in this Session in 1957, and the Assembly instructed its Secretary-General to call together such a committee. The Secretary-General has not done a single thing since that resolution was passed. It is difficult to expect countries to obey the orders

1827
and decisions of the Assembly when its own Secretary-General is failing to do so.
I should like to know from the Prime Minister tomorrow what attitude the Government are taking about this. I want to pay my sincere tribute now to the work that has been done by the Foreign Secretary so often at Lake Success, working side by side with that great Frenchman, M. Jules Moch, who is in this country today. I sincerely hope that the Government have this in mind. Otherwise, what is left for humanity?
What is the good of talking about these smaller details? if a world conflict breaks out there is an end of all our civilisation and all that we have stood for. Is there an alternative? Yes, there is. The Government know that there is. Is it enough for Government spokesmen merely to appear at Lake Success or at the Dispatch Box in this House to make these statements? I do not think it is. Why do they not go out and preach this to the world? Preach it to the people. We have to carry public opinion with us. The Government should point out, as the Minister has pointed out in the White Paper, the danger in which humanity stands today. If that is done, I think people will respond and then we will find, as the Minister again pointed out, that the scientists who today are devoting their time to the destruction of human beings, will then turn their great powers to the improvement of affairs and to the betterment of human lives.
That is the alternative, and I beg the Government to follow that alternative.
7.21 p.m.
Commander J. W. Maitland: The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), as always, has raised this debate to a high level. Everybody must agree with his anxiety and with the sentiments that he has expressed in the last few minutes. I ask the right hon. and learned Member to believe me when I say with absolute sincerity that I believe that in this very horror of the hydrogen bomb, under the shadow of which the world is living today, lies the world's first real chance of disarmament. There can be no disarmament in respect of the hydrogen bomb before we get rid of our conventional weapons. That would be an absolute travesty of effort. If, how-
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ever, as I believe is possible, for the first time we can get rid of our conventional weapons under the shadow of the hydrogen bomb, we may find that opportunity of disarmament which will give the world a second chance.
The right hon. and learned Member said several things with which I agree. For example, he said that nowadays the small war is becoming out of date and that, as time goes on. it tends ever more to lead to a great war. The right hon. and learned Member said we needed new ideas to solve these problems, but it might be well if we went back to some of the old ones which have been forgotten.
Now I want to comment on the White Paper. I believe that the Minister has rendered the country a great service in bringing us face to face with facts. The White Paper is not a plan, it is an outline. Yet it brings us face to face with facts, and unless we face those facts it is impossible to make practical plans. Today we have to approach the problem of whether the defence measures here outlined are adequate. We have to forget the question of the money that we have saved. We have to consider our chances of providing a fair defence for the country. We have also to beware—perhaps not in this House but in the country and in the newspapers—of what I might call the Dunkirk spirit. We have an amiable national habit of turning our difficulties into victories. That is admirable in wartime, but it is not necessarily a good thing in times like these. So we must face the fact that a reassessment of what we can do is not an easy thing, it is difficult, and that our position may well become much more dangerous. The White Paper emphasises that no country can any longer protect itself in isolation. That has been the current thought behind many of the White Papers that have been produced on defence, and at last we have it absolutely straight.
I believe, however, with many other hon. Members, that we are setting perhaps a dangerous example to N.A.T.O. by the unilateral action that we have taken to some extent in saying that we will abolish conscription, and also in the reduction in the Navy. I think that we were right to do it. I am merely underlining the fact that by doing so we may be running into considerable danger, and I will try to

1829
explain what I mean. We are dependent on N.A.T.O., particularly in naval matters, for the defence of these islands against the onslaught of 500 modern Russian submarines. We should not shrug off those 500 Russian submarines. They are far more modern, far more dangerous, than submarines were at the end of the war, and they are becoming more dangerous every day. In my view they constitute in themselves just as dangerous a threat to this country as does the hydrogen bomb.
We have to depend for the defence of our supply lines on co-operation with N.A.T.O. By reducing our naval forces in the way we are doing, we are placing greater reliance on our allies, and I should like to know just what is N.A.T.O.'s power in this respect. The personal problem of this country is the feeding of this country in time of war, and even though we will have only a small contribution to make to N.A.T.O. I believe that we should have command of our end of the supply line. I hope that the Minister of Defence will make our position clear to N.A.T.O. in that respect, because it is one of the problems resulting from reducing the Navy to the extent that we are reducing it.
There is another problem. We are entering a dangerous phase when we reach the point when ballistic missiles can deal with any part of Western Europe, but when they cannot reach America, and when American missiles cannot reach Europe. Many years will elapse yet before we get trans-continental missiles, and so for those years this country will be in the forefront of the battle. It will not be until we get real trans-continental missiles, in perhaps ten years' time, that we can really say that the full potential of the deterrent has been developed.
These are questions which only our experts can answer, and like other hon. Members I shall look forward very much to the debates on the Service Estimates, when we shall hear how the Services are proposing to implement the outline proposals which have been made, and how they can provide for this country an adequate defence. We shall have many questions to ask the various Service Ministers on these matters as the years go by.
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There are two things that we should do at present. The first was mentioned by the Minister of Defence, and it is entirely non-controversial. The run-down will take live years, and during that time an enormous strain will be placed on the morale of the officers and men serving in the forces. The Government should take extraordinary steps to try to maintain that morale. I suggest three simple things which might be done. They are all quite obvious and there is nothing particularly new about them.
First, the Service Ministers and the Government should take the officers and men of the Services into their confidence and should go out of their way to explain to those serving in the Army, Navy and Air Force just what is happening. Men will always follow a good explanation, but they do not like not knowing.
The second thing has already been mentioned. There must be generous treatment for those who are redundant. The country will be disgraced if we do not give generous treatment and if we are not seen to give generous treatment to those who will have to leave the Services. Wherever the fault may be, and for whatever reason the forces have to be reduced, it is certainly not the fault of the men who have given so much of their lives and time to the Services.
Thirdly, I should like to see the Ministry of Labour and industry together set up organisations to deal with the very high quality of manpower which they will receive from the Services. That is for our own benefit as much as for the benefit of the very highly trained technologists and technical men who will be entering the service of their country. I want to see them going to the right places and getting good jobs to serve their country in the best way. I hope that when the Minister of Labour speaks tomorrow he will be able to tell us what special arrangements he is making to cope with this problem.
Mr. E. Fernyhough: Will the hon. and gallant Member carry that argument a little further and say that some of the tens of thousands of men and women, who served in the last war and who took up work in ordnance factories and who will also be redundant because of this policy, should have extended to them the same privilege of compensation because they are no longer wanted?
Commander Maitland: Some of my hon. Friends and I have drawn attention to that on several occasions and have pointed out that any reduction in our Armed Forces will have a considerable effect on the redeployment of labour throughout the country. I cannot answer the hon. Member's question. It is a perfectly sound proposition. To put it bluntly, I do not think that he will have a great deal of luck with his proposal, because it is the men who are actually serving in the forces who should be specially helped. The hon. Member will find that the vast majority of those he has in mind are craftsmen whose crafts can be employed in civilian walks of life much more easily than those of the men in the Services themselves.
The second matter is a little more controversial. It is perhaps sufficiently important to raise in this debate. It is the matter of our bases. At the beginning of my speech, I said that I thought that the phase of limited wars was an historical episode which was gradually drawing to an end, but I am sure that we should still do a great deal now to prepare for them. As the House knows, for one reason or another we are losing our bases in many parts of the world, and many which still exist and which served us well in the past, may not be useful in the future, because they are not in the right place or for other reasons.
I welcome the creation of the central reserve to which the White Paper refers. It is in that part of our forces that I should like to see the beginning of integration. I have never been a believer in integration for the sake of integration. Integration is a means to an end, and if it is not achieving the end it should be dropped; and any experiments which could and should be carried out should be carried out in the central reserve.
Referring to the central reserve, the Minister says, in the White Paper:
"To be effective, the Central Reserve must possess the means of rapid mobility."
He developed that theme and there has been a certain amount of argument about it. I believe that to be effective that reserve needs more than that. It needs the means to establish a base capable of maintaining all its arms. As a nation we pride ourselves upon our ingenuity and adaptability. I believe that it was the Duke of Wellington who said that
1832
when a rope broke, he tied a knot in it and went on. I sometimes think that in this very highly technical age we do not make enough of the adaptability and ingenuity of our people.
I want to see us establish a mobile base, and by that I do not mean merely an aircraft carrier, or what are called fleet trains. I want to try to establish a base which will be able to deal with the whole of a small armed force. I have some experience of these matters, and I do not believe that the Army and the Royal Air Force fully appreciate what can be done from ships. Surely a nation which produced Mulberry, a nation which produced P.L.U.T.O., can, if we rely on the brains of the young men, produce a concept which would not be beyond the means of the country and which would add very greatly to the efficiency of the Central Reserve. For that job we should look to the Royal Navy. We have floating hospitals, and we could do a great deal to create a modern useful base by using ships. I should like the Minister seriously to consider that.
Finally, as I said, I congratulate the Minister of Defence on what I think is a first-class appreciation of the problems which confront us. Such an appreciation in all its starkness is essential to enable us to plan. These plans are as yet in embryo and during the next five years it must be our unsparing duty to examine them in great detail and to ensure, as far as is humanly possible, within the economic limits imposed on us, that they provide adequate defence and a worthy contribution to the defence of the free world.
7.39 p.m.
Mr. R. R. Stokes: I agree with at least one point of the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland), namely, that the old-fashioned bases, such as Gibraltar, Aden, Cyprus and the rest, are completely out of date. I could not accept his alternative. My own view, having regard to the extent of nuclear warfare, is that we must regard our bases in the future as being Australia, Canada and Africa. Nothing much less than that will be much use. I do not want to develop that point.
I want to deal with the practical issues of the White Paper. I am very much attracted by what the right hon. and

1833
learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) said earlier, and I should like to follow his idealism, but I came here today determined to speak about the White Paper, to touch on some of its faults and defects, and to make some suggestions. I should like to say to the Minister, whatever anybody else may say about it, that his White Paper is an improvement on anything we have had from the Government.
While I regret the fact and realise the shortcomings of having had seven Ministers of Defence in the last five years, and while I do not wish any well to this Government and hope that they go out very quickly, at the same time I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will remain Minister of Defence until the Government die and it is possible that some of the things which he suggests may get carried out.
As I see it, the White Paper definitely commits us to nuclear war. That is certainly what will happen the next time a major war breaks out. I disagree with the Minister in regard to his idea—as I understood him to put it—that we can use nuclear weapons in a limited war. Once we have used tactical nuclear weapons, as they are called, I do not believe that we can avoid using the ultimate deterrent.
I will tell hon. Members why I say that. It is because they make such an awful mess. People talk gaily about tactical nuclear weapons as if they were like little Mills bombs. There is nothing smaller than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. It is ridiculous to suggest that a losing side —and I am, of course, assuming that both sides are using tactical nuclear weapons—will not go on to something bigger. I certainly would if I were in command of the losing side. I should not hesitate for a moment.
I would remind the House that this issue was really decided at Nuremburg, where we put to death some of the military and political leaders of the losing side. It is quite certain that anybody losing the next war will suffer the same fate. Quite certainly the side which thinks that it is going to lose will not be content to fiddle about with little Hiroshima bombs. It will go for as many big bangs as it can before it goes up in flames itself. It is a complete error of
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judgment to think that we can get away with what is called the graduated deterrent. I would like to do away with all the expenditure on these small weapons at once.
Mr. Sandys: I do not want the right hon. Member to misunderstand what I have said. I have not talked about the graduated deterrent, which presupposes that these weapons can be controlled All I said was that we must not exclude the possibility, in certain circumstances—I mentioned a distant theatre, like Korea—of limited tactical atomic weapons being used without necessarily bringing about a wholesale cataclysm. I did not say that I had any confidence that that would necessarily happen.
Mr. Stokes: To me that is an abomination. Does the right hon. Gentleman really suggest that we might have used one of these tactical nuclear weapons at Suez? It is outrageous to think that we who possess these weapons are going to use them on a lot of people who are completely defenceless. I can quite appreciate the argument for using them against a great land mass, or against the Russians-cum-Chinese, whom we cannot stop otherwise, but that would be a major war, and once a major war comes the ultimate deterrent will certainly be used.
I will not pursue the argument. I do not want the manufacture of tactical nuclear weapons, but I do want the H-bomb, about which I shall have something to say shortly. There is a great deal of talk about cutting down expenditure. I do not believe that that will happen. As I see it, if we are going in for all these horrors, it will cost us a packet of money, even if it may save a lot of manpower.
I am told that the body of the "Thor" that it is said we are getting as a resift of the Bermuda Conference costs £3 million, and to put a head on it w ill cost another £2 million. The "Corporal" costs £300,000. As a United States general said to me, "The horror of all this thing so far as I am concerned, with regard to expense, is that every time I pull the trigger bang goes a million bucks." That is the kind of little weapon we are giving to the artillery.
With the sort of battery that I used to command in the 1914–18 War we used to think nothing of firing 5,000 rounds

1835
a day. That would now cost 5,000 million bucks! I am often accused of making people laugh, but I am deadly serious about this matter. This thing is crazy. Nobody takes the trouble to think about it.
If one pauses to reflect upon the awful possibility that one might become a Minister of Defence—I am glad to say that I have been demoted—one must not behave irresponsibly. One must assume that one may have to take responsibility at some time or other. I reflect that, however great the cost, it is useless to say that we cannot afford whatever is necessary for defence. That is why I stick to the big bang. What is necessary must be afforded.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: What is the cost of that one?
Mr. Stokes: My secret agents have not yet furnished me with the figures.
Hon. Members have talked about limited wars. It is possible for them to break out in two places. My second reflection upon reading the White Paper and listening to what the Minister has said about limited wars and the running down of forces is to ask what he is going to do if two limited wars break out at the same time. However well armed and skilful our forces are, they cannot be in two places at the same time.
Mr. E. Shinwell: Integrate them.
Mr. Stokes: If we can integrate one force into two, that would be a very satisfactory state of affairs!
I want to talk about some of the shortcomings in the White Paper. My first complaint is that there is still no sign of a collective defence under N.A.T.O. It seems to me absolutely vital that the N.A.T.O. countries should get together and co-ordinate their production. One day last year I was talking to General Gruenther and he said, "You know, it is perfectly absurd: in the N.A.T.O. nations we are making six different kinds of jeeps and no parts are interchangeable. The only thing common to them is the air in the tyres." That example can be carried right up the scale and from it we can see what an absurd waste of manpower is going on. We are making a lot of different things of the same kind which should be made common to all the N.A.T.O. nations.
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Secondly, there is not much sign of a unification of the three Services. We pressed for this last year, and we have pressed for it for quite a long time. I ask the Minister to think about this. Cannot he make a start by integrating the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force? They have only two functions. They each have to carry the Army where it wants to go, and they each have to drop bombs on the enemy. They are both doing the same things, so why cannot they be integrated? That would save a great deal of manpower and money.
I want to say something about the economic and industrial position at home. Paragraph 6 of the White Paper rightly says that
"military expenditure should be considered in conjunction with the need to maintain the country's financial and economic strength."
The Minister has rightly said that the proposals which he has made will give us 300,000 more men.
So I turn for a moment to the question of steel. This atomic energy development plant is simply mopping up steel at a rate which nobody realises. Would it surprise the House to learn that at the present time I am importing steel from Australia to go into machines to work in Northampton, at about 50 per cent. above the price I pay for steel here? All these great atomic towers, 150 ft. high and 70 ft. in diameter, are lined with 3-in. plate. Of course, industry cannot get enough! The Government should buy some of the steel from Australia and let me have the home steel. At any rate, that is what I want. [Laughter.] I wish that hon. Members would not laugh, because I am in grim earnest about this matter. How am I, charged with the responsibility of furthering our exports, to do so successfully if I have to pay 50 per cent. more for my steel than I would if I bought it at home? I am not asking for subsidies; I am asking the Government to be sensible.
I now turn to the question of Transport Command. Paragraph 35 of the White Paper says quite categorically that:
"a substantial fleet of transport aircraft is being built up …"
To me that is just fabulous nonsense. I am not going to mention figures, because I shall be told that it is not in the national interest. But what is this great fleet which is being built up? It is a

1837
handful of Britannias, rather more Beverleys, and a handful of Comets. I am told—I do not know enough about it, because I do not know what size a brigade is now—that all the transport that the Government have on order at present is incapable of lifting more than one brigade. If that is so, it is perfectly disgraceful, and it is about time someone got called to order on account of it.
I wish to talk for a moment about the Territorial Army. There is another extraordinary statement in the White Paper. It states that the Territorial Army is to be primarily assigned to the task of home defence. Then it says that two divisions are to be assigned to N.A.T.O. An Army which has been trained for home defence will be of no earthly use to N.A.T.O. at all. It will not have been trained the right way. If it is to be part of the N.A.T.O. forces, it must be trained properly for the job. And, even when it has been so trained, it must be capable of being got to N.A.T.O., which means that it has to be airborne. There will be no other way of getting it there. The White Paper does not tell us anything about that. I would like to hear from the Secretary of State for War, or from some other Minister, whether these two Territorial divisions are to be part of N.A.T.O. or not. If they are not, they could go for home assignment—
Mr. Wigg: Has not the right hon. Gentleman got it a little wrong? Is it not a fact that a year ago two divisions, the 53rd and the 43rd, were ear-marked for N.A.T.O., and that the White Paper says they will no longer be so ear-marked for N.A.T.O. but will be available for home defence?
Mr. Stokes: I am sorry that I have got on to the hon. Gentleman's preserve. I must have got a "not" wrong—
Mr. Wigg: The facts are my preserve.
Mr. Stokes: All right. With regard to the statement that manned fighters will soon be superseded, I was very glad to hear the Minister say that of course he does not want young men to slop going into the Royal Air Force. That was a point which I was going to raise, but the right hon. Gentleman has covered it so completely and openly, and has made clear what is wanted, that I do not wish
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to spend the time of the House saying anything more about it at all. Quite obviously, manned aircraft will always be wanted for conventional forces, and it would be a terrible thing if it went out from this House or by way of the White Paper that young fighter pilots are not wanted.
I was going to say a great number of things about the whole business of the Royal Air Force, but I think that I had better reserve that—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, go on."]—for another day. What I want to say, briefly, is this. I have made certain examinations, or I did until a month or so ago, about what is going on in the aircraft industry. I do not want to talk today about the urgent necessity of rationalising the industry. What alarms me is that, except for one machine which has now been scrapped and which we are not proceeding with, I have not come across anything, either among fighters or bombers—even on the drawing board—which is out of the "aluminium age". What I mean is that everything we have in the foreseeable future will continue to be made of aluminium. But they will be as out-of-date as the dodo by 1960. By 1960 or 1961, neither the Russians nor the Americans will have an aluminium fighter or bomber, so far as I know, and, so far as I can gather, there has been no development at all here which is commensurate with what is going on in these two vast competitive areas. I could develop that further, but I do not wish to take up the time of the House.
I have one or two suggestions which I want to make. I have said that I consider it vitally important that the production effort of the N.A.T.O. nations should be integrated and that the forces here should, as soon as possible, be unified and a start made by putting the R.A.F. and the Navy together. With regard to the divisions in Germany, I want the Minister to tell us what lie intends to do. Knowing a little bit about the War Office—but not nearly as much as my right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger)—I have a shrewd suspicion that what the generals will do is run down the numbers and diminish the number of division; whereas what they should do, so far as I understand it at all, is to maintain the same number of divisions and run down the number of people in them.

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Can the Minister say whether that is to be the policy? Which is it to be? I know that there are to be fewer men. Are there to be the same number of divisions, or is there to be a division less with the same number of men in the other three? If we leave it to the generals, from my knowledge of generals I am pretty certain what they will do, and they will muff it. The suggestion I want to make it this—
Sir Robert Boothby: That is pretty rough language.
Mr. Stokes: That comes very well from the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby). My language sometimes is a bit loose.
The suggestion I want to make is this. I have never understood why we today in this country seem to be ashamed of having a foreign legion. I should have thought that there is a great deal to be said for having one and that there are lots of people who would join it. It would help the manpower position here, and it would help unemployment in other countries, and, what is more important, both to me and to my hon. Friends—whether they agree with me or not—is that it certainly would help to ensure a speedy ending of National Service. I hope that we can give some serious consideration to that.
Then I want to say something and make some proposals with regard to transport aircraft and civilian needs. We talk about the Britannia rather loosely as if it was quite a simple development. But anyone who knows that machine and knows something about its development knows the enormous amount of money involved in the development of any transport plane. They do things differently in America. The whole of the military needs and civilian requirements are linked up together and, in effect, the military "hold the baby" and "carry the can." We do not do that here, and I do not see how we can get the Transport Command we need for our strategic reserve—or central reserve, or whatever we like to call it—with up-to-date planes unless some effort is made and a change is made by the Government towards co-ordination between civil and military requirements so as to ensure that these planes can be
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developed and delivered on time. It is impossible, in my view, for private enterprise to do it alone. The Government have to supply the necessary funds so that we are able to carry it through.
I am almost at the conclusion of what I want to say, but I have a lot more to say, and it is all about the hydrogen bomb. I was laughed at a year or so ago when I made a speech—not in this House but in the country—in which I suggested that what was really wanted—I say this with great seriousness—was a "treason club for scientists"—a club to which all people engaged in atomic and nuclear energy examinations or science should belong—with an undertaking that they would tell everybody everything and that no nation would ever be able to put one over the other. I know it sounds fantastic. Of course, I see the difficulty. But there is something in this. I do not believe it is beyond the bounds of possibility that Russian scientists would come in with the Germans and others. I can see the difficulty of believing that we could get the politicians to agree that they should. That is a different thing altogether.
But, leaving aside my dream, there is a great deal to be said for an international scientific organisation to which these suitable people should belong and share their knowledge. If we could have something like that, I believe it would help us a great deal in the future with regard to avoiding some of the horrors which otherwise may be perpetrated in the world.
Last year, I suggested in the defence debate that the most urgent and important thing of the time was the pooling of nuclear knowledge. I mentioned that the strongest possible representations should be made to the United States to persuade them to change their line so that we could pool our knowledge to take advantage of everything that was being done and avoid unnecessary duplication which would otherwise take place. And, more important still, if at that time we had been successful in getting them to agree, several things would have happened. We should not have gone on with our bomb at all; we could have had theirs. Secondly, we could stop all the "big bangs". Thirdly, and most important of all, as Jules Moch says in his book, up to that moment in time it was possible to detect within about 10 per cent. where all

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the fissile material was going. The longer it goes on with three nations making the stuff, the more difficult it becomes to tell where it is all going to lead and to get any sort of control.
Mr. Cyril Osborne: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it would be better to get the Foreign Secretaries in every country to try to take away the causes that compel us to defend ourselves? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes. That would be better than to get this "treason club" among the scientists. If the Foreign Secretaries really got down to it and took away the causes of our fears and suspicions, would not that be much better?
Mr. Stokes: I have often thought in my waking hours in the early morning that it would be very good if the Foreign Offices were Ministries of Peace instead of intriguing organisations. If that is what the hon. Gentleman means, I am with him. I certainly understand that to he what he has in mind, and I do not disagree with him. But here we are; what we are trying to do is to get some sort of hold on what is happening in the continued development and extension of these horror weapons.
Again I was laughed at last year when I was talking about this subject, asking that America should be asked to change her laws: but later I was talking to General Gruenther about it. He said what I am saying now, "Don't believe it. America can be persuaded to do this." He had appeared before one of the Senate Foreign Affairs Committees and said, "The sooner we pool all our knowledge of this matter, the better it will be for humanity." The Senator said, "Why don't you say that more often? We agree with you." He replied, "I am only a general. It is for you politicians to say it. Not for me."
I want to know from the Government what they have been doing about it. I am constantly making speeches on the matter in the country. They do not get into the Press very often. A lot of us are doing the same sort of thing. People talk about it. What steps are the Government going to take? It is no use telling us that something happened at Bermuda. All that happened was that we arranged that we should have bodies costing £3 million and we then have to put heads on them costing £2 million. They will
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then have the bodies in their store, and if we want to control our own heads we have to make them and put them on. [An HON. MEMBER: "We are not allowed to do it."] It is exactly the same as ending us one million pairs of boots without any soldiers in them! They would be of no use. Why does not the right hon. Gentleman deal with this position? He knows something about it. I understand he made quite an impression at Washington. I wish he would go over there again and bang their heads together and see whether he cannot get something done to get that United States law altered which prevents our sharing our nuclear knowledge.
I come almost to the end of my speech. The right hon. and learned Member referred to what Mr. Stassen said the other day. Whatever Stassen said, we do not get the bomb. I would like to see all these bombs thrown to the bottom of the deep blue sea and the manufacture of them stopped by all countries, Russia included. But I do not think that that is practicable, because I do not think we would get it done.
Therefore, I am one of those persons who believes that we ought to have the bomb. We have not got it until we test it, so therefore we ought to test it. I am quite willing to wait two or three months to see whether everybody else will come into line, with proper supervision, control and inspection. I can only agree to that if the Americans can let us have some of these weapons so that we can defend ourselves, but I certainly would not wait a long time. But I know the argument is that if we are to insist upon this other nations will develop their own hydrogen bombs. I do not believe that is practicable. The arrangement with America at the present time is that she will not deliver enriched uranium to any nation making bombs. The supplies would stop as soon as they started to make them. I would like to get our bomb tested quickly and then have a standstill all round to get control and gradual abolition. I sincerely believe that we can treat better with the Russians if we have the bomb than if we have not.
I come to my final point, which is rather longer. While we are thinking of these things, it is just as well to contemplate in our own minds what the enemy are after. We all assume that the enemy

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is the Russians. I hope the day will come when we shall find a way of peacefully solving all our difficulties with the Russians, but it does not look like it just now. Let us face UQ to the position. As far as I understand him, he Russian wants one of three things. Either he wants peace. He can have it tomorrow if he will agree to proper supervision of armaments production. Or, if he does not want peace, does he want peaceful domination of the world by Communism? That is what I believe he wants. I believe that the battle in the world is between the Vatican and the Kremlin. Nothing else matters at all.
Mr. James Callaghan: What about the Nonconformists?
Mr. Stokes: I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings at all. I mean, of course, between the Kremlin and the Christian Churches everywhere. If that is what the Russians want, then one of their ways of doing it, as I said at the Government Dispatch Box when I was a Minister, is by a war of economic attrition against us, making us waste our substance in the making of these beastly things which we are never going to use, and thus making it impossible for us to give aid to the backward peoples. The Russians will get all the backward peoples by the march of events because we have not been able to give them the economic security that they desire.
The third alternative is the one we are considering today. Do the Russians mean war? If I were responsible for the defence of this country, I would insist upon having my own control of the hydrogen bomb at the present time. Nothing else would satisfy me. In 1942 when I was speaking to this House in the middle of the Second World War, I referred to what I believed was the possibility that we would end as America's Heligoland off the coast of Europe. That is pretty well what we have done. As far as war goes, it is all right so long as the Americans are on our side and are willing to act, but, as the Minister said, it is possible that the time may come when the Government over there are not quite as friendly as they are now. They may have different interests at heart from our own. Then where are we?
I want to make it quite clear beyond any shadow of doubt to anybody who
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thinks of attacking Great Britain that there is a bang in the other direction which will hurt them just as much, and that we are not going to be left stranded without the means under our own control of defending our own country. Some people may find difficulty with my method of speech. The fact of the matter is: if the Russians want peace, they can have it. If they do not want peace, I wish to be in a position where, if the worst comes, they will be deterred by the fact that calamity will overtake them, too.
8.8 p.m.
Sir Hugh Linstead: In common with hon. Members on both sides of the House I express my appreciation of the last, robust part of the speech of the right hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). I was interested in the remark which he made about the desirability of creating what he called a "treason club", in which scientists would tell all the nuclear secrets. I gather that the right hon. Gentleman doubted whether such a thing were a practical possibility. I think in fact something of that kind does exist at present, and that we are very much nearer that state of affairs than the right hon. Member seemed to suggest.
Some of us were told only the other day by a very senior Government scientist that it is an interesting fact that in the world as it is today all the highly developed technological nations are within three or four years of one another in all modern, scientific discoveries, and that a great deal of what is called security in fact does not exist, for the very reason that was in the mind of the right hon. Member.
There was one phrase the right hon. Member used which I should like to take as a text for the opening of my remarks. He said that this White Paper was certainly going to cost us "a packet of money". Listening to some of the speeches in the debate, one might have the impression that that packet of money represented the price that we were being asked to pay for war. It seems to me that this White Paper can only be justified and the packet of money justified if we regard it as the price that we in this country are prepared to pay for peace. It seems to have no justification on any other basis.

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Surely the hope of peace in the world today rests upon the continuation of the cold war and the continuation of the cold war, it seems, rests upon the fear of the hydrogen bomb. If the cold war can be continued long enough, peace will come from the only place that it can come from, which is inside Russia itself. My support for the White Paper, my support for the policy of the Government and for our developing and testing the hydrogen bomb, is based on the fact that I believe that that is the best way of buying time during which internal changes may very well take place behind the Iron Curtain.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Does not the hon. Member also think that during the next five or ten years technological education in Russia will mean that Russia will not be behind in the arms race, but beating us by a still greater tempo?
Sir H. Linstead: That is repeating, perhaps in another form, what I was saying a moment ago—that as between one great technological nation and another I do not believe that there is any great leadership in these new advances. I concede the point at once to the hon. Member.
If, as in the world today, there is this terrifying game of blindfold chess going on, I cannot see how a country placed as we are dare refrain from putting on the chessboard one of the most potent pieces. It may be said that we ought never to manufacture, we ought never to test, we ought never to use, the hydrogen bomb. That I can understand. What I cannot understand is that we should agree to manufacture the hydrogen bomb and not to test it, because it seems to me that the only thing we would be doing by that policy would be to give Russia three, or six, or nine months' advance of us in this technological race that is going on the whole time. I cannot see why we want to go out of our way to make a present of nine precious months to Russia in the situation in which the world is at present.
With regard to the actual testing of the bomb and the risks which go with it, I have done the best I can to understand the scientific literature which has been published in this country and in America on the subject. My conclusion is that which the Prime Minister expressed in his speech a few days ago, that to no significant extent will existing dangers be
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increased by any test that we might undertake. Not only to the House as a whole, but particularly to hon. Members opposite, I want to put two considerations that I feel that serious-minded hon. Members ought to have in their minds in this regard.
It surely cannot be a scientific necessity that we should be divided about the scientific results of this test according to the side of this House on which we happen to sit. Surely there is not a Conservative science and a Socialist science; there can only be one science. When I find that the division between testing the bomb and not testing the bomb follows a division in this House, I cannot believe that that division is based on a scientific assessment of facts as we know them, but that it is purely a political difference.
The second consideration which ought to weigh with us is that this is one of those decisions in which the Ministers who are responsible for taking it are in the same boat as the rest of us. They cannot hide behind anything. If in fact the explosion of a test hydrogen bomb is going to bring with it the sort of dangers which have been suggested frequently by hon. Members opposite, those dangers are going to be suffered by Ministers, by their children, and by their grandchildren. If Ministers are prepared to take that sort of responsibility, it seems to me that the value of the scientific advice that they have got is being backed in the most personal way by their decisions.
There is a different point altogether in the White Paper to which I want to make special reference. We are committing ourselves in the policy which the White Paper declares to a withdrawal of 13,000 of our troops from Europe. I do not suppose that the withdrawal of 13,000 troops has very much military significance. I do not suppose it matters a great deal militarily whether certain R.A.F. units are based on Europe or are based on this country, but I believe that the Government have greatly underestimated the psychological effect of those decisions.
I believe that that decision, militarily of little importance, is calculated to do serious harm to European unity, far more harm than possibly the Government have realised. There were some hon. Members—possibly some are in the House at the moment—who were with

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me about a year ago when we visited the City Council of West Berlin, a council which has the standing of a Parliament. I remember that the first question that those hard-headed West Berliner politicians put to us—speaking, remember, in the "bear's mouth"—was, "How soon are you and the Americans going to sell us down the river to the Russians and pull out of Berlin?" I suspect that our brigade in Berlin is worth an army corps, so to speak—not militarily, but because it is an outward and visible sign to the West Berliners that we really do intend to stay put and back them up.
I think that the same doubts are to be found in France. No doubt the French Government will understand what we are doing and why we are doing it, but I very much doubt whether the French people understand what we are doing and why we are doing it. I do not believe that the French people are very much impressed by White Papers on Defence. What they want to see is British and American units in their streets and cities.
I see an hon. Member opposite who was with me a few weeks ago when we talked to the French Prime Minister about this very question. M. Guy Mollet said to us that, whether it was rational or whether it was not, among French people there was a belief that so long as British and American trops remained in France and in Germany there was no likelihood of offensive moves by the Russians, but that if those troops came out, or even if small units of them came out, we should play into the hands of Russian propagandists and to that extent discourage French morale.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Where are the French Prime Minister's soldiers?
Sir H. Linstead: Having had those two experiences, and feeling the necessity of holding Europe together, I am inclined to suggest that our strategic reserve, instead of being located in this country, as apparently is the intention, might very well be located on the Continent of Europe, by agreement with France or even with Western Germany. I believe that we should then solidify enormously the will of the European people to resist.
Mr. Wigg: Would the hon. Member be good enough to tell the House how he
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expects to recruit a Regular Army if Regular soldiers are to spend all their time overseas, which is what he means?
Sir H. Linstead: I very much doubt whether the whole of our Regular Army will be concentrated in the strategic reserve. I yield to the hon. Member's military knowledge, but I do not think that the strategic reserve will be constituted of the whole of our Regular Army.
I want to refer briefly to two specific pieces of carry-forward work which I think this White Paper demands. One has been referred to already, and it is the build-up of Transport Command. As the years roll on, it will be very easy to sacrifice Transport Command. Over five years there will be all sorts of calls for economy, and I can see that if no use is made of the reserve for a year or two, and if there are good markets for the Britannia aircraft all over the world, and if there is a Britannia II and a Britannia III in the offing, all those arguments may prevail in an economy campaign which will gradually whittle away the effectiveness of the Transport Command and the effectiveness, in consequence, of the strategic reserve.
I urge upon my right hon. Friend that the implementation of that section of the White Paper will be a matter of the most extreme urgency and importance. The Britannia can offer a speed of 400 m.p.h. or more, and that should provide a speed of movement of a strategic reserve which should satisfy any general for many years to come.
I turn to the question of Civil Defence. Here there is a very grave necessity for a breath of fresh air to be blown upon the present state of affairs. Left, right and centre, policy decisions are waiting to be taken in this respect. Either the courageous decision has to be taken that in a nuclear war Civil Defence can offer nothing—and I believe that that is a mistake—or else such decisions as have to be made must be faced courageously, even the terrifying decision of evacuation. In any event, decisions must be taken. By not taking them, in fact we are taking them. I am sure that local authorities and the Civil Defence personnel are anxiously waiting for a lead and are waiting for the decisions consequent on the White Paper to be given to them.
I believe that if we are prepared to pay the price, this White Paper may buy

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us peace. That is why I support it. But I am certain that it will not buy us peace unless we are deadly serious about it and until we show by carrying this policy through that we mean business. I am sure that bluff will not do. We failed in the past to secure peace by preparing for peace. This time I hope that we have agreed to learn from our failures and to try to secure peace by saying that we are prepared for the alternative.
8.25 p.m.
Mr. Robert Woof: If I do not follow the arguments of the hon. Member for Putney (Sir H. Linstead) it is because I have not been in the House long enough to claim to be an adroit scholastic expert on Civil Defence policy.
It is evident that future defence policy is to be based on military reorganisation, with greater reliance on nuclear power, which threatens to be a nightmare to humanity, and the life and death question which confronts us all is quite plain: how can we assure progress and escape annihilation without the surrender of independence? We have been repeatedly told for some years that the high price extracted from the peoples of this nation is to prepare to defend Britain and to develop such powerful atomic and other nuclear weapons of retaliation that any aggressor dare not take the risk of his own destruction.
Even the Minister of Defence now confesses that there is no adequate total security against the consequences of a nuclear attack. I was glad that the hon. Member for Putney raised the question of Civil Defence, because it brings to my mind the debate on the Government's Motion approving last year's Statement on Defence in which the then Minister of Defence made these remarks:
"Then there is the problem of evacuation. Revised plans are being made for the evacuation of the priority classes. There will be a broader definition of these classes than that used in the last war."
He continued:
"In the preliminary estimate, which is all that we have been able to make at present, we estimate that all this would involve making plans for the movement of about 12 million people."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th February, 1956; Vol. 549, c. 1032–3.]
After reading the latest Statement on Defence, it would not be surprising to
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anybody if local authorities scrapped all their defence plans.
I have a recollection of reading somewhere that the population of this country is about 50 million. What we should like to ask the Minister of Defence is this. Are the plans for evacuating 12 million people still in existence, and, if so, what are the Government going to do about the remaining 38 million?
Mr. Emrys Hughes: That is the question.
Mr. Woof: Faced with this grim prospect, we are quite justified in saying that the search for an answer in order to avoid an atomic war should be made a reality, and more for another reason than for just agreeing to and digesting the Minister's home-brewed Defence White Paper. Reading the New York Times of 7th April, I found that the editorial article and comments on the Defence White Paper said this:
"We might decide to follow Britain's lead and prepare deliberately for an atomic war with diminishing emphasis on other and more immediately expensive kinds of war. This is planned suicide … suicide perhaps in a good cause … suicide in defence of liberty … but still suicide. What Britain has done is to bring us a long step nearer the choice between an atomic all-out war and a practicable peace system under which the struggles of ideologies and systems would certainly continue, but under which it would be impossible for a few madmen to destroy the world."
That does not come from a Labour Party organ; it is the official view of the United States. This challenging task that we face—the alternative between suicide or continuing to gain and preserve the benefits of civilisation—manifests itself in various ways, and should not be beyond a solution.
I think it would be wise at this stage to give this debate a little twist. I note in the Defence White Paper that—
"Britain must at all times be ready to defend Aden Colony and Protectorates and the territories on the Persian Gulf for whose defence she is responsible … In addition, Britain has undertaken in the Baghdad Pact to co-operate with the other signatory States for security and defence, and for the prevention of Communist encroachment and infiltration In the event of emergency, British forces in the Middel East area would be made available to support the Alliance. These would include bomber squadrons based in Cyprus capable of delivering nuclear weapons."
One may need to express the hope that the Government will not be in as big a

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hurry as when they bombed Port Said. We realise that the whole of the area is a breeding ground for Communist infiltration and intrigue, and that the tremendously increased wealth has not been brought about, for example, from sand. but from one commodity alone—oil—and that that change does not apply to everybody. It does not take much imagination to understand that.
I realise that one cannot begin to discuss the problems of a country unless one has a picture of the background of the land and its people, and, as one who has recently returned from the Middle East, I am not going to hold a post mortem on the Suez Canal affair, because it is quite obvious that both Soviet Russia and the United States of America have enhanced their Middle East positions since the Anglo-French attack on Egypt. The experience of history, especially recent history, when it does lay down the law about the issue of freedom, shows that man cannot be held back in his fight for progress and for a better life.
At no time have relationships between this country and the countries of the Middle East more urgently needed a better level of understanding.
Paul Williams: Before the hon. Member moves on from the question of the Middle East, will he not agree that we in Britain have responsibilities in the Persian Gulf, in Aden and in the Protectorate, that we have responsibilities in Cyprus, both to N.A.T.O. and under the Bagdad Pact, and that it is not sufficient to shrug this off and say that these responsibilities have been acquired either by the United States or by Russia? They are our responsibilities and we must honour them.
Mr. Woof: Had the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) waited to hear my speech, he would realise that I am aware of that.
What the people of the Middle East want is not the promise of a nuclear blasting if they gravitate into the Russian orbit. What they want is something more than a cure of nuclear pills. The great wrong is that they exist in conditions of injustice and degradation.
Some might think that it is not wrong to impose injustice on the poor when the
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poor themselves endure it, but poverty can be endured only for a time. It appears that we have now reached the stage when unreason, magic and superstition are being slowly but surely pushed to one side. What the people of the Middle East want is a Bill of Rights, with more attention paid to legal protection and organised collective bargaining, imbued with the task of creating progressive administration and exerting a profound educational influence that will become immune to Communist ideology, at the same time sweeping away many of the anti-democratic measures.
That involves the creation of a more closely-linked population, conscious that it can bring accomplishment to the vitally necessary task, as a first line of defence, of saving the real interests on which this nation as an industrial power depends. We must in all the circumstances divorce ourselves from past policy which is no longer consonant with the realities of political life in the Middle East.
At some of the places which I visited in the Persian Gulf, if an Arab got up on a box in the market square and said the same things that I have the privilege to say here, he would probably get his ears chopped off. That is the kind of freedom that the people there have.
Everybody knows that the rapid advances made by some nations in that area are not shared by others, either economically or socially, and that there is great need for reform. Many of the sheikhs and rulers whom we met were kind, good at entertaining and showing us around, and are most certainly pro-British, but that is due partly to their financial affinity with the oil companies. Even though Britain has inhabited the area with political advisers to Arab rulers, the economic fact is that some of the regions are dominated by American oil companies, who adopt the philosophy, whether it be wise or not, of staying out of local politics. In such conditions, Britain should take the initiative and express the desire to direct attention towards industrial and political associations which are an administrative necessity for the moral influence and wise leadership which can achieve the balance needed for a healthy economic society.
8.41 p.m.
Lieut.-Commander S. L. C. Maydon: The hon. Member for Blaydon

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(Mr. Woof) will, I hope, forgive me if I do not follow him closely, except on two points. He mentioned Civil Defence and spoke of what he thought was the apparent futility of it. If our Civil Defence organisation as it is today saves no more than 100 lives tomorrow, it is still worth while. He spoke also of suicide. I would remind him that many honourable and patriotic men in recent days have preferred suicide to Communist slavery.
Mr. Woof: I am sorry if the hon. and gallant Gentleman misunderstood me. It was not I who spoke of suicide. I was quoting from the New York Times, the most influential paper in New York.
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: I accept that.
I welcome the statement which has been made on the outlook for defence, for four reasons. First, it seems to me to be the first time that the Government have stated clearly that they realise that methods of attack have, temporarily, we hope, outrun methods of defence. Hence, we have the doctrine of the deterrent, to prevent rather than to prepare for war. There is an old Roman saying, "Si vis pacem, para bellum"—"If you desire peace, prepare for war."
Mr. Harold Davies: Look what happened to Rome.
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: What happened to Rome happened when Romans forgot that saying, when they grew fat on idle living and too much eating, when Romans forgot to keep their geese by the gate to give them due warning.
The second good point about this White Paper is that it shows the Government's realisation that, expensive as armed forces are, sheer weight of £.s.d. does not necessarily buy defence. It is only the economically sound country which can be militarily strong. Thirdly, we have here the first realistic showing of a longer-term policy, an outline of a plan for the next five years, not an annual report. Lastly, the White Paper is the first honest determination to face the conscription issue.
Undoubtedly, there were risks which had to be weighed, and those risks have, in my opinion, been courageously taken, weighed and accepted. No time, when
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we come to think closely of these matters, can be any better or any worse for taking such risks. Only the future can be the judge of that, and none of us can foresee the future. People also criticise and term it a risk that we should place so much reliance on the United States technical development and upon the numerical strength of their armed forces. Many would deplore that. But this is not altogether a one-sided exchange.
We have to remember that in this country we have contributed a tremendous amount to research. Let us never forget that it was our scientists in Britain who were the initiators of the nuclear research which led to atomic explosions, thence to hydrogen explosions and to all the peaceful applications of atomic science. There are numerous other techniques which we have contributed. There is the equipment which we have designed and manufactured in this country and which is now being manufactured under licence in the United States and elsewhere—the aero engines, the steam catapult, the Asdic, and many other equipments and weapons of war, all of British invention and design and all a contribution to our common defence effort.
Then there are the sites which we offer in this country for airfields and for bases, and last but not least there is our own strength. That is why we must strive to be strong not only in our own defence but in the common defence of our friends and allies as well.
There is another risk which has been weighed and accepted, the recruiting risk which has to be taken if we are to do away with National Service. If, as the Minister has assured us this afternoon, good conditions of service, a fair deal for those who find themselves redundant and a good career aspect in the three Services come out of this, I think that that risk has been fairly weighed and fairly accepted. All those three necessities—good conditions, a fair deal, and a good career aspect—are expensive. All will cost money, but it will be money well spent if we can achieve Regular forces without recourse to National Service.
What is likely to be the future shape of the Services? Taking the Navy first, I do not think that we need fear about recruiting. I think that if we are honest with ourselves we will all admit that in

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the last few years the Navy has been very uncertain. It has considered itself to be somewhat in the doldrums, but nevertheless, its recruiting has not suffered too badly, and apparently we shall be able to keep up a strength of 80,000 or more. I say advisedly "or more" because I rather query whether a strength of 80,000 men for the Royal Navy will be sufficient to maintain the carrier task group forces in the future in sufficient size and numbers for our requirements.
The Army, in its future shape, will, perhaps, need about 160,000 to 165,000 men, which one newspaper has taken to mean the equivalent of about 50 infantry regiments, 20 armoured regiments and the necessary ancillary corps. That, unfortunately, will mean that about 24 infantry battalions will become redundant, and similarly about 9 armoured regiments. How are we to maintain the esprit de corps of our Army if these famous names are to disappear from it? My only suggestion, for what it is worth, is that an amalgamation of the regiments, such as took place with the cavalry regiments after the 1914–18 War, might provide some means of keeping these long-famous names in existence, though in conjunction with another name.
Then we must consider the future shape of the Royal Air Force and the possible risk in the rather uncertain period of time ahead of us. I think that we can say with absolute certainty that, for at least another ten years, manned aircraft will be required for both Fighter and Bomber Commands. Quite apart from that, even when that space of time has passed and, if we assume that guided missiles have taken the place of both those Commands, there will be ample scope, as we have seen from the debate, for flying personnel in Transport Command. Surely there will still be a need for reconnaissance and for small conventional strike forces for limited warfare—the kind of thing which has recently been going on on the borders of the Aden Protectorate.
I believe that there will be another very important role for one branch of the Royal Air Force, a branch which at present considers itself to be the Cinderella of the R.A.F., namely, Coastal Command. I am convinced that that command will be needed if our enemies
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are building such very large numbers of U-boats, the most modern of which are capable of probably 25 knots and more in short bursts under water. Those would be highly dangerous weapons, menacing our seaborne trade and our very lifelines and, from my knowledge of modern techniques, they are unhuntable and undetectable at that high speed underwater, at any rate from surface craft. This is where there may be a great future for Coastal Command to be once again the valuable force in hunting the U-boat of the future, just as it was so valuable during the Second World War for the self-same purpose.
We must, of course, look at what all that costs. Vast sums hurriedly spent are more often than not mis-spent. Like the housewife we have to be selective of quality. A good small joint is better than a mass of gristly stewing steak. The Socialists, some years ago, started their three year defence policy with a plan to spend £4,700 million in that time. When the Conservatives came to power in 1951 that was altered to the Tory long haul, and now we have the new look introduced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence. I entirely agree with the policy which he has outlined in the White Paper.
Mr. G. A. Pargiter: May I ask which one—the long haul or the new look?
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: The new look.
There is no point in spending vast sums and training large numbers of men until we are certain that we have the right weapons and the right methods. But there is a paradox which presents a problem. We cannot afford diverse and costly experiments, although research is essential in order to be certain of what we want for the future, and we must be sure before we embark on spending large sums. It is difficult to resolve quite how far we can go with this expensive research and development, and quite how far we can limit it and still strike a happy medium and remain safe.
I am sure that we are grateful that the Government have faced the fact that there is at present no adequate defence against all the dangers confronting us. It is interesting to compare that with the Russian outlook. At the Moscow Congress in 1956 Mr. Mikoyan said that

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hydrogen and atom warfare can bring about great devastation—none of us dispute that—but that it cannot result in the destruction of mankind and its civilisation. Some people have doubts about that. He went on to say that it would
"… destroy the outdated and pernicious régime of capitalism in its imperialistic stage."
I have a suspicion that that statement by Mr. Mikoyan was for internal consumption.
The Russians have, of course, one great advantage. The vast spaces of Russia, China, and the satellites, provide room infinite dispersal. They expect to be hurt, but they are sure that they will not be vanquished. We can take a lesson from that, and disperse our defence elements far more widely. There is far too much concentration in Europe and in these islands. N.A.T.O., the Bagdad Pact, S.E.A.T.O. and the A.N.Z.A.M. treaties all go some way towards dispersing defence responsibilities, but the time has also come to invite other members of our Commonwealth to undertake a greater share of this problem and of the expense involved not only in money but in manpower I should also like to advocate some form of African defence pact.
Let us encourage co-operation and stress the weakness of neutralism. Together we can hold fast, but separately we shall be terrorised like Hungary and subjugated to the Kremlin.
9.0 p.m.
Mr. Wilfred Fienburgh: It has rightly been said, by the Minister himself in opening the debate and by many speakers on both sides of the House, that the White Paper marks a very significant step forward, "step forward" is the term used, in our military thinking. I cannot help being a little worried by this phraseology at times, because many a good man has been lost in forest, fog or blizzard simply by taking one step forward after another, following his nose, taking pace after pace, plodding on without pausing to check his bearings. I have a feeling that to some extent the Minister, in writing his White Paper, has taken a step forward, but has not adequately checked his bearings.
I should like to check the bearings first. That exercise may bring me in some respects to conclusions similar to those
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of the right hon. Gentleman. In other cases we may find that we are running on slightly different tracks. I apologise to the House if I introduce one or two clichés in this reassessment and reappraisal. A cliché, after all, is only a truth which has often been repeated, and it may be proper to repeat them at the beginning of a reassessment of our military position.
The first thing which we can now firmly say is that the only purpose for military forces is the defence of the 50 million people in these islands; that military force can no longer be used as an instrument in military adventures in order to further foreign policy by other means. I would have hoped that it would never have been necessary to re-emphasise that cliché, but, of course, the Suez operation launched by hon. Gentlemen opposite makes it necessary to reaffirm it, because they attempted to use military force in the furtherance of foreign policy and not to defend the people of these islands.
Secondly, it is true that now no longer can military forces be used for territorial aggrandisement as a precursor to trade. It is certainly true that military strength or potential military strength cannot in these days be used simply to influence the foreign policies of other countries.
Therefore, the first cliché, premise or precept, is that the sole purpose of our having defence forces at all is to defend the 50 million people of these islands, to defend them from the threat of thermonuclear attack—H-bomb attack for the benefit of the Minister—to defend them from being over-run by armies, to defend them from the threat of slow starvation by the sealing off of our sea approaches.
The next point in taking our bearings again is this. We must bear in mind all the time the dreadful dichotomy of our position in these islands. We are a small group of islands off a great Continental land mass. Because of our position, we have become a great Power. That is one product of our position. But because we are a small island off a great Continental land mass, we have not, for an appreciable length of time, been strong enough to support our position in the world as a great Power. Therefore, our geographical position in the world leads to the contradiction that first we are a great

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Power, and, secondly, we are not in the military and economic sense of the word, in comparison with other major Powers, strong enough to look after ourselves and to defend ourselves on our own. Having taken our bearings in this way, we next have to consider what kind of defence policy is possible and proper.
There could be two immediate policies available to us. One is neutralism and the other is collectively to organise our defences with other countries which think like us. There are many people in this country, not a very large number, who take the view that perhaps the time has now come for us to recognise that we are a minor Power and, having recognised that, to try to escape behind a cloak of neutralism and to leave it to the "big boys" to fool around, in the hope that by the protection of neutralism we shall be left unhurt and undamaged in the process.
That is not a point of view to which I can adhere for a moment, because it ignores altogether the first point I put, that we are in the position in which we are because of who we are and where we are. If it were possible to pull these islands several hundred miles north, and tuck them up against Greenland, we might be a neutral country. We should be cold, but we should be neutral. If, on the other hand, we could cut the cords that bind us, steam south, and tuck ourselves in against the coast of Africa, we should then be warm, but we should be neutral. But neutralism in our present position is a policy which can in no way fulfil what must be the prime aim of the Government, namely, the defence of the 50 million people of this country.
Therefore, we are left with the second possible means of defence, namely, collective security, under which we accept responsibilities to other nations and, in turn, expect them to accept responsbilities for our own defence. This means three things. First, and above all, it means that we must depend upon the maintenance of the rule of law in the world. Here again this Government are extremely culpable because, of all Governments, it was the Government of this weak and vulnerable island which first breached the rule of law in regard to Suez. This is not a risk which we can afford to take because, in pursuance of our defensive aim, we are dependent upon other people
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obeying the rule of law, and it is consonant with that that we must obey the rule of law ourselves.
The second thing which flows from the concept of collective security is that we must integrate our defence structure with those of our allies and those who think with us. The right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) touched upon this point, and I want to elaborate it a little. It has never been the case within living history that this country has been able to defend itself alone. I pointed out the dichotomy of our position and our fundamental weakness in manpower and in our economic and military potential.
That has always been so. It is nothing new to say that we must co-ordinate and integrate our defensive effort with those of our allies. In earlier days we may have been able to put down Zulu risings and Matabele rebellions without much help from outside, and in time we managed to deal with the Boers although it was not easy. But in the First World War our infantry manpower deficiencies were made good by France, and in the Second World War, even although, in the initial stages, we were fighting against one European nation, of a size comparable to our own, victory would not have been possible without the contributions made by Russian manpower and United States technology, ships and bombers.
If all that were true in terms of conventional armaments how much more true is it in the thermo-nuclear age, in our discussions of these weapons of mass destruction?
We must integrate our defences. I shall refer to that point again and try to relate these fundamental reappraisals to the White Paper.
Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: There is nothing new in what the hon. Member is saying. Our whole history has shown that we have always had allies, and have always fought with them. We have not always been able to have forces equal in size to those of Continental countries. For the last two hundred years we have pursued a policy of maintaining allies on the Continent.
Mr. Fienburgh: The hon. Member must have missed my apologia at the beginning. I said that I was going to repeat

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some obvious military clichés. I hope that they have registered. I think that they needed to be repeated, because in many respects the defence policy which the Government are bringing forward completely ignores them. I said that if we are to take a step forward the first essential is to take our bearings. I have tried to take our bearings, and I am terribly sorry if I have bored the hon. Member in the process. Perhaps he will bear with us, and we will see how we get on later.
The third factor for consideration in our assumption of collective responsibility—and here we come rather close to the White Paper—is that with the maintenance of the rule of law we must be prepared and able to take collective defensive action whenever the first invading soldier sets foot across the first frontier. It is when we express the situation in simple terms like that that we begin to see some of the more obvious drawbacks of the White Paper. Disregarding a thermo-nuclear attack; disregarding the threat of H-bombs, when the first invading soldier crosses the first frontier we must play our collective part in resisting that aggression, in maintenance of the rule of law. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me how the Government propose to do that?
We in our Amendment have pointed out—it has been endorsed from both sides of the House—that the swerve in our policy is away from the conventional and towards H-bomb strategy. What is going to happen at the ten o'clock Cabinet meeting when, for example, Yugoslavia and Greece have been invaded from the East and we have not the conventional forces available to meet the attack? What is the decision of the Government to be? Is it to be to launch a thermo-nuclear attack in retaliation on Moscow on Monday morning; knowing that on Monday evening London, Liverpool, Edinburgh and Cardiff will go up as well and the whole of this island will be written off? Or, lacking the adequacy of conventional forces in order to meet some limited kind of attack, shall we sit back and allow ourselves to be nibbled away around the periphery?
The Government may reply that they propose no such thing. They may argue that in the White Paper they have
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stressed both the need for conventional forces and outlined the means by which they hope to achieve them. By the way, that difficulty came out clearly from the answers given by the right hon. Gentleman himself to questions by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) when he envisaged the use of A-bomb weapons at least as a means of stopping a limited attack. But, as was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), we are not chucking hand grenades about. We are not using Mills bombs—or if we are it is as though two men were throwing Mills bombs at each other in a telephone booth. This means the use of weapons the smallest of which will—as my right hon. Friend pointed out—be of Hiroshima magnitude. Therefore, it is nonsense to say that by using weapons of that nature one can limit or freeze any local war. It would be an incentive to a big war and a "big bang."
The Government may say that they would not propose to do that at all. They might fall back on the argument that they have in the White Paper outlined means whereby they would provide the conventional forces needed to meet a limited attack. I want to deal with the various aspects of the White Paper, but before I do so, I wish to know why none of the seven Ministers and junior Ministers associated with the Service Ministries is speaking in this debate.
There are more than a few gaps in this White Paper, and it is quite impossible for the House adequately to discuss this defence policy without having some of the gaps filled in by the Service Ministers themselves. Have the cats collectively got their tongues? Does the Prime Minister not trust them to take part in a major debate? Does he prefer to use them only in the rather cosy club atmosphere which we have when we are discussing the Service Estimates, when none of the rough boys comes along? That is not good enough.
It is not good enough to say that we propose to do this with the Army and that with the Navy—although even that is pretty vague and must have been written in another hand than the Minister's. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman wrote the whole of the White Paper. I think he wrote most of it, but when it came to the naval bits another

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hand crept in from on high. But is it really good enough that we should have been presented with this White Paper in which there are so many gaps which not a single Minister comes forward to fill?
I propose to deal with one or two points because there is still time for a right hon. Gentleman opposite to speak. I am delighted that the hon. and gallant Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Sir W. Anstruther-Gray) is to follow me. But the real point at this stage is that no hon. Member, however gallant, can adequately fill up the gaps in this White Paper, which is a production of the Government. There is still time for some right hon. Gentleman opposite to rise to his feet, push his way past the stretched-out legs, seize the Dispatch Box and answer in detail some of the questions which I should now like to ask.
First, we find that there is to be a reduction of commitments. But when we examine that we find that first the battalion is to be taken away from Korea. That is a sound move, and we advocated it most strongly ourselves in recent debates. But we are still apparently going to need troops in Libya for purposes which are not expressed and are not clear.
We are still going to need an enormous garrison in Cyprus. That I find almost obscene. It can well be argued that we ought to have rocket bases and bombers in our own island for our own defence, but I find it wicked to hold an island in subjection and then to use it as a base for launching nuclear weapons, knowing that the whole of that island will be completely wiped out against its will when the first retaliatory bomb is dropped on it. Many overseas garrisons are to be reduced, but there is no detail of that reduction.
Then we come to the discussion of a central reserve. The White Paper says:
"To be effective, the Central Reserve must possess the means of rapid mobility. For this purpose, a substantial fleet of transport aircraft is being built up …"
How realistic are we on that point? Let us remember that only a few months ago the Americans held an experiment in providing a complete air transportable lift for their famous 101 Airborne Division. For ten days, they demobilised the entire resources of the United States
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transport air fleets by the effort. Remember how many they have and remember the size of their resources. In this context, to think that we, without considerable expenditure and within the foreseeable future, could mount an effort in any way comparable to that is taking things too far.
The hon. and gallant Member for Wells (Lieut.-Commander Maydon) said that in dealing with National Service the Government had at least made a brave attempt to face the problems. I cannot see how they have introduced any clarity into this matter. They have said, and it has been re-emphasised today, that the call-up will end in 1960. Now I refer to the White Paper and not to the speeches made on television. The White Paper, which is carefully drafted, says:
"It must nevertheless be understood that, if voluntary recruiting fails to produce the numbers required, the country will have to face the need for some limited form of compulsory service to bridge the gap."
How can we abolish compulsory service in one paragraph and retain compulsory service in the next paragraph of the same document?
We require answers on this point from the Minister of Labour when he discusses this matter tomorrow. I hope that he will have more than that to discuss when he replies, because he has also to justify the speech which he made only a very short time ago, referred to by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), who dwelt upon it earlier. I am bringing the point up again only because the right hon. Gentleman rose during my right hon. Friend's speech and said that we had got the figures wrong and that he had rejected the abolition of National Service because the figures then were based upon the total estimate of 200,000 men, which he thought impracticable to secure other than by National Service. He said now that the figure was reduced to 175,000 men it was perfectly all right. He is now prepared to change his mind, because the reduction by some 25,000 men has occasioned this enormous revolution in the right hon. Gentleman's thinking. Let us see what he said about the 200,000 men. He said:
"… with a Regular Army of about 200,000 and that even on that figure there seems to be a gap of 130,000."
If we give him 25,000, the right hon. Gentleman is still 110,000 out on his

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calculations, the 25,000 being the reduction from the 200,000 on the previous debate to the 175,000 which he now thinks he can secure. I hope he will answer this point in some detail. It is no use the right hon. Gentleman shaking his head. He can read what I am saying tomorrow in HANSARD, and I can sit here and listen to his reply.
The right hon. Gentleman went on to say, in that same speech, that the Government hoped
"… that the day will come when National Service can be ended, but they cannot see that day at present in the light of the known facts."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1956; Vol. 557, cc. 1208 and 1209.]
How can the known facts have altered for the right hon. Gentleman? It ill becomes him or anybody else on that side of the House to point any kind of finger towards hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House because, in the words that have been used by Government supporters, "Some minds may have moved in certain directions". No minds have moved more quickly than that of the right hon. Gentleman. Either he played the wrong card in July or he has played the wrong card now. He is an experienced bridge player. I understand that the technical term is "To revoke". The penalty for revoking too often is social ostracism, being thrown out of the bridge club and being drummed down the drive from the club. The right hon. Gentleman is certainly in danger of it on this occasion. [Interruption.] I think that the right hon. Gentleman is explaining to his colleagues what "revoke" means.
Mr. Iain Macleod: What I was explaining to my right hon. Friend, which perhaps I can develop tomorrow, was that the hon. Member has left out altogether the figures in regard to officers. In one case he is dealing with male other ranks and in the other case with male all ranks. That makes quite a difference.
Mr. Fienburgh: I was taking two figures from the same paragraph of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. If there is an error, it has crept in between the first and third sentence of that paragraph.
Another matter on which I think we should have an answer is how the Government propose to achieve Regular recruitment, It ought to have been
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stated here in this debate whether there is to be an end to the three-year period of Regular call-up and whether a longer period is to be introduced. It is no use leaving that to the debate on the Service Estimates. We should have had those Estimates some time ago. We are in the dark, but right hon. Gentlemen opposite must have made up their minds. There is no excuse for not having given the House those very important figures.
A final point, almost in parenthesis, is that it was said that the middle ranks to be "bowler hatted" are to be bowler hatted over the next five years. They have no trade union to represent them. I therefore must arrogate that rôle to myself. I hope that the Government will tell those officers as soon as possible what their individual future is to be and not keep them hanging about from year to year while prospects of civilian employment dry up.
Another point which should be in the White Paper is the whole conception of divisional structure. We managed to tease the Under-Secretary of State for War, in reply to an interjection in the last Army debate, to give us some wisps of information about that. I should have thought that if anything further had developed it should be mentioned in this White Paper.
The two points on which we doubt the whole strategic conception of this White Paper are, first, that it places a stress on the H-bomb which we think is dangerous and, secondly, that it does not seem to provide the required level of conventional forces, or, to put it in perspective, the required balance between conventional forces and the thermonuclear weapon.
Perhaps I had better go on to describe what kind of pattern of forces we think is necessary. The majority of us on this side of the House believe that it is still necessary to possess some limited—I underline "limited"—degree of thermonuclear H-bomb deterrent. I described earlier the terrible position in which we might be placed should we have to decide whether to use an H-bomb in defence of another country. Let us remember that in that difficult period when things in the world might be going awry the United States might be placed in that position if we do not possess some limited form of deterrent ourselves.

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I do not think it is practicable, I think it would be idiotic, to try to match the United States or Russia in any way with the H-bomb weapon, but I believe a limited form of deterrent in our hands is necessary. Otherwise, we would be too dependent and putting too big a strain on the alliance than in certain circumstances it could bear. Therefore, the consequences might be surrender. Even if the consequences are not rosy, we feel we ought to have the deterrent in our hands.
Secondly, I believe there should be some conventional arms, limited and integrated with the forces of our major allies. This is a point on which the Government in the White Paper have again failed to express a clear policy. The hon. Member for Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison) and other hon. Members opposite have many times during the debate pointed out that in the recent Government reshuffle on defence policy there has been no adequate integration and no adequate consultation with our allies. That is inviting disaster.
What would happen if all the other European nations and the United States were to follow the precise pattern which we have followed, with a switch of emphasis from conventional to thermonuclear arms? It would mean that nowhere in the world was there any policy other than that of massive retaliation. I remember that hon. Members opposite were just as perturbed as we on this side of the House were when Mr. Dulles announced the policy of massive retaliation. If other countries follow our pattern and if other N.A.T.O. countries go through the same switch in emphasis, then there will be no policy other than the policy of massive retaliation.
There is a whole host of questions which should have been discussed, among them the question of standardisation. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich is a little out of date when he says that there are six kinds of Jeep and that none of the parts is interchangeable. After a committee has been sitting for six years we now have a common denominator carburetter, although of course it is not yet in production. This is the sort of thing which the Government ought to have tackled if they were presenting a reasonable policy on this subject.
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I want to answer one question which may be put: do we believe that by integration with our allies in a military sense we become a satellite of those allies? I would answer, "In no circumstances." A satellite is a nation which is the disposable property of another nation. Nothing which I have proposed, nothing in the degree of interdependence which we ought to seek to secure, involves Britain in being a satellite of another country any more than our dependence on French manpower in the First World War and on Russian manpower in the Second World War made us satellites of France or Russia.
It is only a question of a common collective endeavour for the common preservation of freedom. I have outlined two possible approaches to defence, bearing in mind that fundamentally the only aim of the whole policy is to defend our 50 million people. One is neutralism, which I reject. The next is collective security on the lines which I have described.
But what is the stage which we have now reached? We have a White Paper which tells us that no defence is possible at all. In time there may be the development of defence mechanisms which will defeat rockets, but it will be a long time coming. Since at the moment we are in a position when the Minister of Defence himself says that there is no defence in these circumstances, should we not undertake some radical rethinking? It is the need to take the next step perhaps in a rather different direction which lies behind most of the Amendment which my right hon. Friends and hon. Friends have put on the Order Paper.
When I was an infantry subaltern I was told that the best means of defence is to attack. It was a precept which I viewed with some reservations in certain instances. The new precept is that the only means of defence is deterrence. Surely we are now reaching the stage when the only means of defence is collective disarmament, and it is in order to draw the Government's attention to that point that we have framed our Amendment in these terms.
I hope that the Prime Minister will give us one of his more sober efforts tomorrow. This afternoon, for twenty-seven minutes out of an hour's speech

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announcing a new major defence policy, we have to endure the naïve, jejune, sixth form, heavily underlined irony of the Minister of Defence. For him it passes as wit. To us it was a bore. I hope that when the Prime Minister is burning the midnight oil—because he burns an awful lot of midnight oil in his speeches—he will leave behind his bumper fun book tonight and tomorrow will come to the House of Commons with reasonable answers to the propositions which are contained in our approach.
We are asking for the postponement of the hydrogen bomb test. It is no answer to say that we did not say this some time ago or that there are differences of emphasis. It may be that on this matter the surface of the Labour Party is rather like a turbulent stream but that is better than its being as placid as a stagnant pond. On this matter, during the whole debate today, in everything that I have read by all hon. Gentlemen opposite, there has not been one single bubble of doubt, of question, of worry, as to whether this was the right thing to do. I would be appalled to belong to a party which had such placid and stagnant unanimity among its members, because it certainly does not reflect the torment of moral questioning which is going on in the country at the moment. We have always said that the Conservative Party does not present the main streams of thought in this country. Never has that been more demonstrably true than in their attitude to this question.
Let me put it to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite in this way. The only means of defence is disarmament, and therefore a White Paper on Defence which does not contain some suggestions—or speeches in support of the White Paper which do not contain some lines of thought—on what positive action can be taken to secure collective disarmament is not a Defence White Paper at all, because it leaves out the main feature of possible defence for these islands.
The point which I should like to register, and on which I will finish, is that the Government have this terrible responsibility—it is not in our hands, because the Government have the responsibility—in regard to the H-bomb tests. On this side of the House, there are not many hon. Members who can trace their
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hereditary line a long way back, blazoned with heraldry, but, at least—and this is a terrible truism—we all have one thing in common—that, somehow, the lifeline has been preserved and has got as far as us since Creation. Somehow, the lifeline which is in us has survived floods, pestilence and disease, all externally imposed upon humanity by outside forces, and now we are in a position when we ourselves have the power to determine whether that lifeline will continue into the future.
In this forthcoming summer, there are to be three separate series of tests. There is to be the American series of tests, then the Russian series of tests, and then ours. Russia, for what it is worth, and it may be worth testing, is prepared to stop her tests. It may not be so, but it is worth testing. The United States, only two days ago, brought forward a proposal saying that under certain conditions it was prepared to stop its tests. Now, are we in Britain who have the most to gain, since we are the most vulnerable nation of the trio, to be the silent member of the trio? Is no approach to be made by this Government at all? Is no attempt now to be made at this hour to secure some form of agreement on this matter, which is going to affect the whole of humanity?
Because nothing on these lines is contained either in the White Paper or in the speeches in support of the White Paper, we must condemn it, not only for the technical details, not only on questions of military technology which we feel at times are wrong, but because, on the whole basis of their appreciation of defence at this moment, the Government have started to take a step forward, but. to our minds, in the wrong direction.
9.34 p.m.
Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray: The last occasion when I had the pleasure of following the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Fienburgh) in a debate on defence was before the White Paper had been published, and the hon. Member saw fit to forecast that his party would receive the White Paper with reserve, with restraint and with suspicion. I think I would be on secure ground if I ventured to say that that was an understatement in reference to his speech during the last half hour, and, indeed, an understatement

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in regard to the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) who opened the debate for the Opposition.
On this side of the House, however, and in the country in general, the White Paper has been well received. Bearing in mind that it forecasts a policy to be carried out over a period of five years, and that if at any stage that policy is found to be faulty it can be corrected, I think that my right hon. Friend has done a very good job of work in producing the White Paper and also by his speech today.
I expected my right hon. Friend to be a success as Minister of Defence, and I was interested that the right hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), although he said, quite fairly, that he did not like the Government, was of the same view that, as Minister of Defence, my right hon. Friend was well chosen.
Mr. Stokes: No. What I said was that I hoped he would stay the course in the interests of consistency and progress.
Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: I took it that the right hon. Gentleman thought—
Mr. Stokes: He has more guts than any of the others.
Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: There is not much between us. I think that the House in general will be grateful for this lead, which has prevented us sprawling about as we have done in our recent defence and Service discussions.
I like particularly the basis on which the White Paper is founded—for example, in paragraph 13—
"the overriding consideration in all military planning must be to prevent war rather than to prepare for it."
Nobody could regard that as other than a happy basis and I support unreservedly the emphasis placed by the White Paper on the deterrent, because in the deterrent I see the greatest hope of peace.
In placing faith in the H-bomb, however, we must give it every chance of succeeding in its deterrent effect. The right hon. Member for Belper said—I thought, quite rightly—that the deterrent is a weapon for us only so long as it remains a deterrent. We must not weaken it by using it. I could not agree more, and that is the basis of my argument with hon. Members opposite in the line that
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they have taken in tabling the Amendment.
I cannot understand why certain hon. Members opposite should be against testing this bomb, nor can I understand why they should hesitate to test it, because until it is tested and proved efficient, the deterrent effect is not available. Surely, we must test it to prove to the world that it will work.
Mr. Paget: Does the hon. Member really think that Russian policy will be based upon the proposition that if we were to test the bomb over Moscow a would not go off? The alternative is if we test it and it does not go off.
Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: As with many of the hon. and learned Member's questions, the answer needs a good deal of thought.
Surely, I can carry the hon. and learned Member with me in putting forward these propositions. The power of a deterrent is a combination, is it not, of two factors? One is its destructive force, which must be proved and accepted, and the second is the political certainty that the Government in whose power it lies would have the will to use it in an emergency. It seems to me that if one undermines either of those factors, one hopelessly weakens the influence of the deterrent.
The Amendment moved by the Labour Party does harm in two ways. Postponing the tests leaves everyone in doubt as to whether the H-bomb really is as formidable as we are told. By showing that on this serious matter the alternative Government of Britain is unhappy and divided, they leave our enemies in doubt as to whether hon. Gentlemen opposite would really use it in an emergency. [An HON. MEMBER: "Thank God for that."] An hon. Gentleman says "Thank God for that." Have we to learn our lessons over and over again? I am not talking of the lessons of the history books but of the lessons of our own lifetime. Have not nearly all of us lived through two wars in which the doubt of foreigners as to whether Great Britain would fight has certainly been a contributory cause of the first and probably speeded up the coming of the second?
Mr. Crossman: Surely the hon. and gallant Gentleman realises that there is

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a difference, does he not? The question before us then was whether we would fight. The question now is whether we will commit national suicide. There is a slight difference between the problem facing us in 1914 and 1939 and the problem facing us today. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman really is trying to make out that there is no difference between them, that only shows how much better it is to have a little doubt on such questions as that rather than have the ignorant certainty he himself has.
Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: Of course there is a difference between one case and another, but my aim, and the aim of the White Paper as stated in paragraph 13, is to try and prevent war rather than wage it. In 1914, the uncertainty of Europe as to whether the then Liberal Government, with its pacifist members, was prepared to fight was a contributory cause to the Kaiser's war taking place at that time. Again, we can all remember what happened in 1939. Although we would accept the fact that sooner or later Hitler was bound to fight, there is no doubt that he was encouraged to do so by the reports which were reaching him from this country that England had not got the guts to stand up for herself. Nothing gave greater basis for those reports than the action of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite.
Mr. G. Brown: Why did the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister resign from the Government or from the Conservative Party at that time?
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I did not resign; I was not in the Government.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Sir William Anstruther-Gray.
Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: If I may be allowed for a moment to fight my own battle with right hon. Gentlemen opposite, I will remind the House that in 1939 the behaviour of the Labour Party in voting against conscription had an effect in causing Ribbentrop to report that Great Britain would not fight.
Mr. Brown: That is why the present Prime Minister left the party. He did not leave the Labour Party; he left the Conservative Party—and a jolly good party to leave, too; he was quite right.
Mr. Hugh Delargy: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman speak about the White Paper? Time is going on.
Sir W. Austruther-Gray: I base my remarks on the paragraph in the White Paper which expresses the intention to preserve peace rather than to prepare for war. That is the basis of the nuclear deterrent, and it is the basis of the present Government's attitude towards the H-bomb.
Mr. Michael Stewart Mr. Michael Stewart (Fulham) rose—
Hon. Members: Sit down.
Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: May I now turn to the next point in considering the H-bomb, which is the question whether it is sufficient to leave the H-bomb in the hands of the Americans—
Mr. Stokes: No.
Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: The hon. Member says "No", and I agree with him. I was asking whether that was sufficient to prevent anyone attacking us, or whether we must make these bombs ourselves. The White Paper appreciates—and the right hon. Gentleman agrees with it—that we must have some of our own, and I am sure that he is right.
It may be that we probably will have to base our defence ultimately on American power. We are all of us very conscious of how much we owe to American intervention in the war of 1914 and in the war of 1939. But it is as well to remember that although a trickle of help to Britain started quite soon in both those wars and grew steadily, it did not turn into full military participation for quite a long time, either in 1917 or 1941.
There are two other points to be borne in mind. In both those cases it required an overt act of hostility against the United States to bring her in, the sinking of the Lusitania in 1917 and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour in 1941. These reflections make it clear that it would be very unwise to count on American reaction on our behalf being sufficiently quick and whole-hearted—and it would have to be very wholehearted to touch off the button of the hydrogen bomb—to take effect before we might be overrun. In all this I am assuming that the United States would see eye-to-eye with us, but she does not always, however righteous we may think our cause, as we have

1875
learned before. My hon. Friend the Member for Scotstoun (Sir J. Hutchison) made a further point, that even if the United States were working with us she might not select as No. 1 priority the target which we believed to be most vital for our survival. These reflections lead me to support without hesitation my right hon. Friend in deciding that we must produce H-bombs ourselves.
May I turn from that to what I understand more easily, and that is the traditional forces, because however useful the H-bomb may be in preventing a major war, we all know that it cannot stop local wars, as we have learned in the last five years. Therefore, let me turn to the forces that we require for the defence of the Colonies and our obligations under N.A.T.O., S.E.A.T.O. and the Bagdad Pact.
The question is, can we carry out those duties with 375,000 men, which the Minister of Defence has mentioned in the White Paper, instead of 700,000 men? I believe that over a period of years—it is five years that we are looking to—taking advantage of the mobility of a very much improved Transport Command—and this I am sure has been the feeling of more than one speaker on this side of the House and, indeed, on the other side—we can, but it depends on whether we can recruit the Regular Service men we need. The recruiting of these 375,000 Regulars is clearly connected with the manner in which we get rid of the surplus from the 700,000, that is the 300,000 persons in the Forces, a great many of whom will naturally finish their time—all the National Service men with great delight—but there will still be a residue which my right hon. Friend mentioned of middle seniority officers and N.C.O.s.
The numbers that my right hon. Friend mentioned were from 5,000 to 7,000 officers in the three Services combined with about half that number of non-commissioned officers. That is quite a lot. It must certainly affect the future of our recruiting whether we are successful in paying these men off in a manner which they regard as just and fair, because it is no good sacking a man from a Service at 40 and then expecting him to recommend his son of 17 or so to join up the next year. Of course he will not do it.
I think that my right hon. Friend appreciates the importance of the problem and
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the White Paper talks about fair compensation. I should have preferred the word "generous" to "fair", but I appreciate that if we are too generous all the middle-aged officers might leave in a bunch and that would not leave a good balance. The hon. Member for Islington, North spoke about these men being given a bowler hat and having no trade union to defend them, but I am sure that we can count on all hon. Members, on all sides of the House, to do their best to see that they get fair play.
Mr. G. Brown: Is the hon. and gallant Member a friend of the generals?
Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: The next point is the question of making the best use of the available voluntary manpower in the country. The figures give cause for anxiety in the case of Army recruiting. They give cause for uncertainty with Royal Air Force recruiting, and cause for satisfaction with recruiting for the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines. Today, out of 111,000 sailors, no fewer than 103,000 are volunteers. Out of 10,000 Marines, no fewer than 8,000 are volunteers, making a total of 111,000 volunteers out of the 121,000 serving today. But, according to the breakdown of the Services which the Minister mentioned today, the proportion required for the Navy will amount to only 80,000 or so. Therefore, if we have all the 111.000 volunteers we shall have a surplus of 31,000 sailors and Marines.
I do not think that we shall get so many joining the Royal Navy, because the end of National Service is round the corner, but it is reasonable to look to 10,000 sailors and Marines above the number required. I hope that my right hon. Friend will not waste that voluntary manpower. It is no good asking them to go into another Service. I do not think that they would do so. They would go back to fishing or some other occupation. Ii is better to take them as sailors and then to find a suitable task which the Navy can take over from the Army and the Air Force.
It is not impossible to visualise the manning of Malta by the Royal Navy and making Malta a Royal Navy headquarters command. Hong Kong may need half-a-dozen battalions largely for civil defence. I would not be in favour of

1877
putting sailors in barracks and making them soldiers, although that might apply to the Royal Marines.
Commander Maitland: I should not mind.
Sir W. Anstruther-Gray: I am encouraged by my hon. and gallant Friend, with his naval experience, saying that he would be prepared to live in barracks.
Hong Kong would be a suitable place to which to send a frigate or two and have the sailors based on the frigates to do the kind of policing work with the civilian population that at present would require the services of soldiers. So I hope that my right hon. Friend will not neglect that point.
Finally, I come to an Army point, which is a matter that will inevitably be hard for old and serving soldiers to bear. If we are to restrict the size of the Army in the way it is to be reduced, there must inevitably be a reduction of many units which have given good service and have earned a great reputation. I can only ask my right hon. Friend to do his best to ensure that he does not lightly dissipate the traditions of these regiments, the units' names, the father-to-son tradition, the nucleus of personnel, the recruiting area, the county connection—all these things are so precious.
If my right hon. Friend can possibly do so, let him reduce the numbers in the corps. The Royal Corps of Artillery is safe enough. Any volunteer who wants to do so can get into the Gunners, but I ask him not to give extra tasks to the Gunners that they have not got now. Rather let those extra tasks, such as the rocket regiment, be taken over by a county regiment and be called the Hampshire Rocket Regiment or the Border Rocket Regiment, because if we can keep that tradition, it is worth considering.
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I cannot close my speech without remembering how often in days gone by, when economy in defence has been sought, one has been conscious that the very weapons and arms that one has been regarding as redundant might be needed again in an emergency. I hope so much that this will not be the case today, but I am confident that we have reached that state in straining our resources where it is impracticable to continue at our present level of defence expenditure in manpower as well as in materials and wealth.
I am sure that the Government were correct to reappraise the situation and to produce a White Paper calculated, as best it could, to meet the problems of the next five years. Bearing in mind that it is a five-year programme, which can be adjusted in the light of events, I think that this House and the country should support the White Paper as a sound step in the right direction.
Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Legh.]
Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Maesteg [copy laid before the House. 11th April], approved.—[Mr. Simon.]
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Cheltenham [copy laid before the House. 11th April], approved.—[Mr. Simon.]
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Wincanton [copy laid before the House, 11th April], approved.—[Mr. Simon.]

KENYA (EMERGENCY REGULATIONS)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Legh.]
9.59 p.m.
Mrs. Barbara Castle: I think that the Under-Secretary of State will welcome this debate, because I believe that he himself was rather surprised, or even shocked, at the reply he had to give me on 13th March. I asked him then about the rate of new arrests in Kenya under the Emergency Powers, and the answer which the hon. Gentleman produced revealed that in the two months from 8th January to 7th March this year no less than 8,989 persons had been arrested in Kenya under those Powers.
As all of us who have taken an interest in this matter know, the Administration at the moment is congratulating itself on the rate of releases from detention camps which are now taking place at the rate of 1,600 a month.
It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Barber.]
Mrs. Castle: But we can hardly congratulate ourselves on the situation at the end of the emergency, when we were arresting people at the rate of 4,500 a month and releasing them at the rate of merely 1,700 a month. I am very well aware from the various Answers which have been given to Questions in the House that most of these arrests are not for Mau Mau offences. They are for illegal movements and the breaking of curfews. The figures which the Colonial Office has supplied show, for instance, that out of the 8,989 arrests, no fewer than 8,648 have been for illegal movement and pass offences.
I am bound to say that that shows how important it is to examine this situation, because the fact that the offences are themselves so innocent makes it all the worse that we should be using Emergency Powers which were taken solely for the sake of fighting Mau Mau. I know that
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the Under-Secretary will say as part of his answer that the sentences are light and that nobody is treating these offences very seriously. To spare him the trouble and time of reading out the sentences, I can assure him that I am aware that in the majority of cases the sentences were only a fine—in 4,800 cases—while in another 2,300 there were sentences of imprisonment from one to six months. There were also more than 1,300 people acquitted or discharged when their cases were brought to court. But, presumably, they were at any rate sent back from the homes from which they had illegally travelled.
It will not do for us just to dismiss a fine, a short term of imprisonment or banishment back to home as a sign that we have a perfectly beneficent and understanding administration in Kenya. Nobody likes to be in prison, if only for a month, and a fine to an African already living at subsistence level is a hardship. We must, therefore, not say that the sentences are so small that it does not matter if the arrests were unfair and in any normal sense unlawful.
My purpose in raising this matter tonight is to ask that as the British Parliament responsible for these Africans we should look at the nature of the crimes for which these people are being rounded up like cattle in such large numbers. What is the crime involved in these curfew offences, illegal movements and pass offences? I am sure that the Under-Secretary will agree with me that we must at all costs avoid creating in this British Colony any of the atmosphere which now pollutes race relationships in South Africa. He would be the first to avoid that. What is the crime of these people?
The Colonial Secretary admitted in the House in answer to a supplementary question of mine on 13th March that one of the motive powers behind this movement of people is unemployment. He said:
".. I recognise that, particularly in the Kiambu district, where there is overcrowding, steps must be taken to provide employment—there and elsewhere—which will tend to make people less anxious to enter Nairobi"—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 13th March, 1957; Vol. 566, c. 1120.]
In other words, the Colonial Secretary himself has admitted that the reserves are overcrowded in many cases and that there is no work for the men, but that if they move without a pass, they will commit

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an offence. They will not get passes to go to Nairobi just to look for work, because there is no employment exchange system for the African in the reserves. He cannot get a pass and so he has to risk it. Because of sheer financial and economic desperation, they go looking for work. Then they are arrested and imprisoned, fined or sent home, to start the whole vicious circle again.
The Under-Secretary may argue that that is not the only reason and that by no means all these arrests take place in Nairobi. A number have taken place in the Nyeri police area. It is not a sin to travel around, perhaps in order to see relatives, or even merely to see the world In these times we must have a very good excuse if we wish to stop people from moving about just because they wish to do so. The Colonial Secretary has been the first to deny that these arrests were made for Mau Mau reasons.
I suggest that he is trying to have it both ways. First, he says that the majority of arrests are not taking place in the Nairobi district, and advances that as an excuse. He will argue that we cannot allow Africans to get into Nairobi because they will bring disease, crime and overcrowding. Secondly, he says that in any case most of these arrests do not take place in Nairobi, but elsewhere. If they take place outside they are even less justified, because then the excuse that they are made for reasons of health, crime or overcrowding does not arise.
I know that the Colonial Secretary is concerned about the problem of overcrowding in the reserves and of unemployment. The Under-Secretary of State will probably say that the Government are trying to deal with the matter in this way or in that, but I would make this submission to him: is not there an enormous temptation that so long as we maintain these Emergency Powers to control the effects we shall not get down to dealing with the causes. In terms of modern colonial policy, are we right in maintaining control powers merely for our own administrative convenience when there is absolutely no justification for them?
Secondly, how are we going to deal with the causes? I do not believe that we can, until we remove these control powers which deaden and blunt their real
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impact. One of the serious factors is that the land consolidation programme, upon which we have been congratulating ourselves in that it is a sign of advance in Kenya, is creating a landless proletariat for which the Kenya Administration and the Colonial Office have not yet made provision. The Colonial Secretary has admitted it, and, writing on 28th December last, in the Kenya Weekly News, Mr. Michael Blundell says:
"We shall undoubtedly have to deal with a landless section of our population, accept that the old-fashioned security of the African land unit in old age and for the weak and helpless has gone, and deal with such social problems as creating a wage level which will enable an African to live without the added support of the family holding in the African areas and despite the difficulty of raising his production and efficiency."
He goes on to say that it is true that land consolidation is creating a class system among the Africans, and that the rich African farmer is now employing some of these dispossessed and landless proletariat. He welcomes this new division into the "haves" and "have nots" in Kenya because he hopes that it will encourage in certain sections of African society an inherent tendency towards conservatism.
So it will for those who come out well from this arrangement, but we can have a new unrest in Kenya, not upon the same lines as Mau Mau, but none the less dangerous, and leading to personal violence and rioting if no preparations are made to deal with this landless proletariat that we create by making a rich class and leaving a large section of the population—the "have nots"—inadequately provided for by employment schemes. There are no signs yet that we are really facing and getting ready to deal with the, consequences of the land consolidation programme before its effects are felt in this great migration of aimless, goalless Africans who are wandering round committing these pathetic little offences, not because there is a crime wave, but because there is no provision and no social roots for them in the new Kenya.
I think this a serious and challenging problem. I believe that the land consolidation programme has been entered into too hastily. I am not by any means satisfied that the creation of individual tenures now is necessarily the correct way

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of dealing with agricultural reorganisation in Africa. It cuts across the tribal communal habits of the African, as another white settler in Kenya, replying to Michael Blundell said in the Kenya Weekly News on 11th January. I ask the Under-Secretary to read what Mr. Lindsay said and how he warns the white settlers in Kenya that if they press ahead with these modern western ideas of new individual land tenures, uprooting thousands of Africans and giving them no kind of communal association through which to survive, they will be facing a deep social unrest which may prove more dangerous than Mau Mau.
I suggest to the Under-Secretary that to continue a potentially dangerous situation by using Emergency Powers only taken and justified because of the Mau Mau emergency is a short-sighted and tragic mistake. I hope that he will bring pressure to bear on the Kenya Government to provide, first, a long-term social policy to meet Kenya's needs and, secondly, to abolish the Emergency Powers.
10.13 p.m.
Mr. John Stonehouse: I am glad that my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) has drawn attention to this important problem in Kenya. I wish to underline some of the things which she has said, and also to refer to the fact that the Emergency Regulations also enable the Kenya Government to keep in prison many thousands of Africans who have committed no offence at all. There are approximately 30,000 of these men and women in gaol. If we had a like proportion of people in prison in this country, without a charge being brought against them, it would amount to the population of three constituencies put together.
Although the rate of release has been increased, I ask what date the Colonial Secretary has set for these releases to be completed. Are we to wait another twelve months or even two years before these men are released, men who have had no case brought against them at all? In The Times today we read a report from the Nairobi correspondent of the way in which these detainees are being treated. Admittedly they are on their way to camps where they are investigated before they are released. But do we
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have need, in one of our own territories, to transport men
"in batches of 250 by launch and then in heavily protected railway coaches, with their legs in irons throughout the journey "?
Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: Shameful, absolutely shameful.
Mr. Stonehouse: These are men who in the majority of cases have had no case whatever brought against them. Furthermore, in the next paragraph of this report from The Times correspondent, we read that:
"The new arrivals are separated from the real fanatics (who prove to be a surprisingly small percentage of the total) …"
If the real fanatics are such a small percentage, why is it that these men have to be transported in batches of 250 with their legs in irons? This is an injustice which we must beg the Colonial Secretary to have put right.
We also read in this report that before these men are released they have to make a full confession. I read in this morning's issue of The Times:
"This is a first and vital step towards a return to normal life."
These detainees are expected to make a full confession of their activities within Mau Mau. What is the position of those detainees who are in no way connected with Mau Mau and who deny any association with Mau Mau in the past? There are several people in Kenya in prison today who are known personally to me, and who I do not imagine for one moment would have been associated with Mau Mau or its atrocities at any time; and yet, before these men are allowed to be considered for release, they are apparently expected to make a full confession of crimes which they have not committed. It is time that the Colonial Secretary gave this House a full report on this question and, above all, a target date for the complete release of these detainees.
10.17 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. John Profumo): I very much welcome hearing the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse) speaking, so far as I am concerned, for the first time. I do not think he could have been doing me the honour of making his maiden speech, but I shall be interested to study with considerable interest what he said.

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I hope that he will acquit me of any discourtesy if I do not follow him into the realms of some of his arguments, which were rather more about the existing detainees than about the arguments of the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), and who concentrated primarily on the Regulations which have caused what I readily agree appears at first sight to be a very large number of arrests in a short period of time.
I am indeed glad of the chance to give a fuller explanation to the House of this matter, and to show why the Regulations must continue for at any rate the time being. In this country, thousands of miles away from the recent horrors of Mau Mau, we are inclined sometimes to regard Kenya as a territory which has by now gone back to a normal state of existence. It is no longer constantly in the headlines and, thank goodness, murder, arson and even the power of the oath are now things of the past.
Yet even today, there are nearly 300 terrorists, including a handful of known leaders, who are still unaccounted for. A major security problem is presented by those whose secret sympathies have been and perhaps still are with Mau Mau. There may still be some, even among the 40,000 released detainees. The hon. Member for Wednesbury will wish to know that figure; 40,000 have already been released. These are people who could form rallying points with these missing terrorists for a further violent outburst.
The threat to security does not end there. Unofficial estimates have placed the number of those who took the oath and whose allegiance was shaken as high as 90 per cent. of the Kikuyu tribe. That is not counting the Embu and the Meru. No responsible Government can ignore those facts. Those Kikuyu who are loyal are openly recognised as such, and many of the restrictions apply to their fellows do not apply to them. It is those whose loyalty has swerved whom the Kenya Government must take primarily into account, and it is for these that the Regulations are primarily necessary.
Mr. Brockway: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that if 90 per cent. of the Kikuyu had sympathies with Mau Mau there must have been very deep grievances which led them to that position?
Mr. Profumo: I do not really think these grievances should blind us to the threats under which these people were when, under the emergency, many of them forced to take Mau Mau oaths. Since they once had sympathies there, it is logical to say, although one may not agree with it, that a responsible Government, so soon after the emergency, have to bear that in mind.
Mrs. Castle: On 13th March the Colonial Secretary explained this high rate of arrests as a reason for people flocking back to normality.
Mr. Profumo: I am trying to sketch the background against which the Kenya Government have felt it necessary to keep these rigid restrictions about which the hon. Lady has been complaining. I want now to pass to some of the figures, but perhaps I might first be allowed to correct an inadvertent mistake in the information given to the hon. Lady on 13th March. The actual period concerned covered only the seven weeks from 8th January to 28th February and not right through to 7th March. I wished to correct that because I know and recognise that the hon. Lady and many of her hon. Friends have been taking this matter very seriously.
As to the figures of the passbook and identity card offences totalling 2,680, only 673 took place in the Nairobi area. Of the 2,118 arrests for breaking curfew, only 836 took place in the Nairobi area, and of the 3,850 travel arrests, only 1,700—or less than half—were made in the Nairobi area. Most of the rest took place in the Nyeri police area, which, as the House knows, covers five of the districts most affected by the emergency.
I am not going to suggest that movement into the city does not constitute any problem. Indeed there is a very real problem about entry into the city. Hon. Members will recall that a Parliamentary delegation visited Kenya in 1953, under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Mr. Elliot). The deputy leader was the right hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Bottomley). I want to remind the House of some of the words used in the unanimous Report of that delegation. The Report said:
"In Nairobi, which is one of the most important centres in Africa, the situation is both grave and acute …

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The situation in Nairobi derives not only from Mau-Mau, but also from other political activity and agitation… There is also a third factor, the growth of criminal activities, particularly of violent crime …
Such conditions as these, in the heart of Kenya, strike at the roots of public security and of respect for law and order."
There followed after that delegation's visit, what was known as "Operation Anvil", and the situation in Nairobi was only restored by strict and careful control. The point I want the House to note is that the trouble had developed in the lack and absence of that control. One element in that situation was the high rate of crime, to which the delegation quite rightly drew attention. Of course, I realise that three years have elapsed since then, but all is not well even today, because the figures for crime in January and February this year stood at no less than 1,316, or 155 above the pre-Anvil total.
That means that at least one of the main factors which made Nairobi such a danger to Kenya in early 1954 is with us again, and the rise in the crime rate has naturally caused concern to the authorities.
Mrs. Castle: Is the hon. Gentleman really suggesting that the Emergency Powers should be kept on to deal with the normal crime wave which may have social causes?
Mr. Profumo: If I have time, I will try to develop that.
The point that I am trying to make is that after any great emergency, as after the end of the war in this country, there are special circumstances to be dealt with before a country returns to normal. Any Government must bear that in mind. I have no desire to make any political point on this, but the Government of the party to which the hon. Lady belongs did see fit in this country to keep a very large measure of control at the end of the war, including, I think, identity passes, during a period of peace. It was felt necessary by the Government, because we had emerged from a period of emergency in this country, and the same state of affairs, I submit, exists in Kenya today.
Quite apart from security, there are, as the hon. Lady recognised, other problems in Nairobi, such as housing and public health. As she recognised this, I
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do not wish to go into great detail about them, but they exist.
A large number of the arrests which took place in fact took place outside Nairobi itself and in the Kiambu District. The hon. Lady made a point about employment and the difficulties which exist, as we readily recognise, and I should not like it to be thought that the Government in Kenya are not taking vigorous measures to solve this problem. By relief agricultural work, by placing families in forest settlements and in the Rift Valley with farmers, by great irrigation schemes now afoot and by encouraging a daily supply of workers and traders to enter Nairobi, the authorities have done a great deal to improve the situation. There are signs that the pressure is being reduced, and that workers can pick and choose to a certain extent the jobs they want to do.
I think we must recognise that in Kenya we are dealing with a situation which is still highly inflammable and that the country has only just emerged from a very great upheaval. The hon. Lady reminded me that I might probably say something about the fact that the courts over there have not regarded these as very serious crimes. That is so. The fact remains that if we have Regulations and if there is a law, then when the law is broken we must take action in order that it shall be respected. As a result, the crime rate in Nairobi has dropped in the last month.
No one likes these Regulations, least of all the Governor and the Government of Kenya. Only recently we have seen a great many of the Regulations relaxed. There was extensive relaxation early in this year, including the abolition of the death penalty for every remaining capital emergency crime. Further progress can be made, provided that the law is maintained and is kept, and that law and order are preserved during the still existing emergency situation.
May I mention again the various points which make us feel that these Regulations must continue? First, there is the short lapse of time since the end of widespread violence; second, the aftermath of the recent upheaval; third, the deep implication of the Kikuyu tribe in Mau Mau; and fourth, the special dangers of a lack of control in Nairobi—dangers to both peace and public health.
All these circumstances make it essential, however distasteful, that these

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Regulations should continue for the time being, but if the Regulations are properly observed and if the people in Kenya settle down, as we fully believe they will, to a full state of peace, nothing will please the Governor or his advisers, who already have a proud record of relaxation of the Regulations, more than to carry forward as swiftly as they can further relaxations of the Regulations until a state exists where these measures will have their place only as an unpleasant memory of the past. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for having given me the chance to say something further about this problem.
10.28 p.m.
Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: May I say how disappointing the Minister's reply has been to the protests which have been made on this side of the House? We take the view that Mau Mau itself arose from the economic, social and psychological frustrations of the African people and that unless these conditions are changed now we are likely to have a continued struggle of the African people in the economic, political and social field.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Ten o'clock.

NATIONAL FINANCE
  United Nations Fund (Economic Development)
  United Nations Fund (Economic Development)
  Gold and Dollar Reserves
  Gold and Dollar Reserves
  British Transport Commission (Loans)
  British Transport Commission (Loans)
  Budget Summary (Poster)
  Budget Summary (Poster)
  Surtax
  Surtax
  Income Tax (Personal Case)
  Income Tax (Personal Case)
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Palace of Westminster (Costs)
  Palace of Westminster (Costs)
  Mrs. Pankhurst (Statue)
  Mrs. Pankhurst (Statue)
  DISARMAMENT
  DISARMAMENT
  SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Bacon Imports
  Bacon Imports
  Beef-Rearing Subsidy (Calves)
  Beef-Rearing Subsidy (Calves)
  ANGLO-POLISH TRADE
  ANGLO-POLISH TRADE
  TREATY OF VERSAILLES
  TREATY OF VERSAILLES
  TRADE WITH CHINA
  TRADE WITH CHINA
ROADS
  A34, Newcastle-under-Lyme (Widening Scheme)
  A34, Newcastle-under-Lyme (Widening Scheme)
SHIPPING
  Gulf of Suez (Mines)
  Gulf of Suez (Mines)
TRANSPORT
  Road Traffic (Convention)
  Road Traffic (Convention)
  Traffic Congestion, London (Proposals)
  Traffic Congestion, London (Proposals)
  CARLTON HOUSE GARDENS
  CARLTON HOUSE GARDENS
EDUCATION
  Teachers (Superannuation Scheme)
  Teachers (Superannuation Scheme)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Rating Appeals (Water Rates)
  Rating Appeals (Water Rates)
  Derequisitioned Premises (Office Use)
  Derequisitioned Premises (Office Use)
NATIONAL SERVICE
  Deferments (Extension)
  Deferments (Extension)
SCOTLAND
  Roads, Lanarkshire (Speed Limits)
  Roads, Lanarkshire (Speed Limits)
  Derating
  Derating
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Restrictive Practices Court (Order of Proceedings)
  Restrictive Practices Court (Order of Proceedings)
  North and South Vietnam
  North and South Vietnam

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

BARCLAYS BANK D.C.O. BILL
2.35 p.m.
Read 2a, and referred to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.

MARINE SOCIETY BILL
Read 2a, and referred to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.

TRADE WITH CHINA
2.37 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in relation to the China embargo, they are aware that the end-use practice under which British traders are constantly faced with the question "Shall we get the licence if we get the order?" (1) is having hampering effects on their efforts to obtain orders; and (2) supplies confidential information anent the proposals of British firms trading with China to other members of the Consultative Group; and whether Her Majesty's Government will take steps to discontinue the end-use practice.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, it is only to be expected that procedures which are necessary for the enforcement of an embargo must have some hampering effects on the efforts of traders to obtain orders. That is one reason why we hope very shortly to be able to make a further announcement about the future of the China controls. Meanwhile, the same procedures are operated by the fourteen other Governments with whom we co-operate in applying the embargo. As regards the second part of the Question, the proceedings of the Paris Consultative Group are confidential to the participating Governments, and we have no reason to think that exporters in other member countries receive information through this channel about the proposals of British firms.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Lord for his Answer. May I ask him whether he is aware that these end-use and other restrictive practices have the result of perpetuating an embargo that, in some important respects, brings British trade policy under the control of a confidential body sitting in Paris, over which the British Parliament has no power?
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am afraid that membership of an international body such as the Paris Consultative Group always involves the risk of some surrender of Parliamentary control. But the same conditions probably apply to the other fourteen Governments with whom we co-operate.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government if they are in a position to indicate the nature of the conclusions arrived at as a result of inter-Governmental conversations at Bermuda relating to the China embargo.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF GOSFORD): My Lords, following our discussions in Bermuda, the United States Government have made some proposals for reviewing the China Lists. We shall study these proposals in consultation with other members of the Consultative Group. I hope that this will comfort the noble Viscount after his many years of persistent inquiry.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, it certainly will comfort me if the matter goes ahead at a rapid rate.

MOTOR FUEL RATIONING
2.40 p.m.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, as the Suez Canal is officially declared to be open, they can say when it is intended to bring the rationing of motor fuel to an end.]
THE MINISTER OF POWER (LORD MILLS): My Lords, as was stated by my right honourable friend the Paymaster General in another place yesterday, the removal of petrol rationing depends on the assurance of an adequate and regular flow of supplies. It is the Government's view that, having regard to the present situation in the Middle East, it would be unsafe to assume that this condition is yet satisfied, and it has been decided, therefore, that petrol rationing must stay for the time being. Nevertheless, petrol supplies have improved and this has been reflected in the increased allowances already announced for the new rationing period beginning tomorrow.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, arising out of the noble Lord's Answer, for which of course I thank him, may I ask whether he is aware that, with the exception of France and ourselves, petrol rationing has been done away with in every country in Western Europe? Would he also say what are the governing factors about the use of the Canal? Is it a question of dredging, or is it the attitude of other Powers? May we be told whether the present difficulties in Jordan have any bearing on the matter? Would the noble Lord also bear in mind, when he answers, that the motor world in Britain is contributing over £400 million a year in taxation? Has that not some bearing upon the whole question? We have not been given any figures that we can go on, either in another place or here, about the question of our fuel stocks. There has been a vague allusion to 90 per cent. of fuel stocks. For the sake of the 10 per cent. have you really got to keep petrol rationing on?
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, Order!
EARL HOWE: I beg your Lordships' pardon, but I wanted just to put it that way.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, the noble Earl has asked a good many questions. In reply, may I say that it is the general situation in the Middle East, including the absence yet of any agreement about the Canal, which has brought the Government to the conclusion that they cannot end petrol rationing. As I have stated before in your Lordships' House, we must be sure not only that our stocks are good and adequate but also of normal supplies in order to meet normal requirements. We are not yet in that position.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, do not these same considerations apply to every other country in Western Europe? How is it that they can all do away with rationing while we have to continue it here? Have we to wait until people stop throwing bricks at one another in Jordan?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, before the noble Lord answers the question may I say that I hoped he was going to be a little more forthcoming with regard to figures. May I ask the noble Lord whether he agrees that, if we are to keep petrol rationing in this country until tranquillity settles on the Middle

5
East, we may well have rationing for the rest of the lives of everybody in your Lordships' House? The second question I should like to ask—and the noble Lord himself will know whether or not it is time to end rationing—is whether he would be so good as to consider alleviating the hardship on one class of the community which he rather sadly neglected in his rather generous dispensation of extra petrol during the coming period—I refer to the private motorist who cannot and has not made any case for a supplementary ration and who is still trying to exist on his ordinary basic ration. Might I ask the noble Lord whether, if the petrol ration per unit were to be increased by 50 per cent., or even doubled, it would make any very large inroad on present or prospective stocks although it would give to one section of this community who have been badly treated an opportunity of enjoying a holiday in the next two or three weeks?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, in reply to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I am rather anxious, as I have mentioned in your Lordships' House before, not to discuss other countries. I am concerned with the necessity of our being prudent in what we do. We are not going to run the risk of taking rationing off and then having to reimpose it very quickly. In reply to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, as I have already announced, it is the intention to increase from to-morrow, by 50 per cent., the basic ration applying to all private motorists. That is as far as Her Majesty's Government feel that it is safe to go at the present.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, if I put this Question down on the Order Paper again for a date very early after Easter, he will be able to give a rather more satisfactory answer than he has been able to give so far?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I think it would be better if the noble Earl were o put down another Question, as we are in danger of getting into a debate on this subject.

THE LATE LORD STANMORE
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, your Lordships will have heard with great regret of the death on Sunday of Lord Stanmore. He was Chief Liberal Whip here for some time and was also Chairman of Committees. I would therefore inform your Lordships that we shall pay a tribute to him to-morrow.
REMUNERATION OF DOCTORS AND DENTISTS
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I am sorry not to have been able to give the House earlier notice, but I think that at about half-past three I shall be in a position to make a statement on the remuneration of doctors and dentists.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham, I beg to move that this Order, which is in the usual form, be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending Section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Maesteg, be approved.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, in the same way I beg to move that this Order he approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Cheltenham, be approved.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that this Order be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Wincanton, be approved.—(Lord Chesham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RENT BILL
2.48 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, in presenting this Bill to your Lordships for Second Reading I have no wish to do so in any controversial spirit, but so many of its clauses have been distorted and so much of its purpose exaggerated that many people, in my judgment unnecessarily, fear its ultimate consequences. I have in my possession a mass of statements made by noble Lords in this House and by Members of another place dealing with the problem of rent control. I do not intend to refer to them, for they can all he found in the Hansard of the day concerned; but on every occasion when we have discussed this subject your Lordships, irrespective of Party, have again and again expressed the view that the Rent Acts must be amended. I am glad to think that there is no greater contributor to this view in your Lordships' House than the noble Lord, Lord Silkin; and I therefore look to the noble Lord beyond any other Member of this House for substantial support for the new proposals which are enumerated in the Bill.
Noble Lords who have followed the discussions on this Bill in another place will undoubtedly now be acquainted with its main purposes, but I hope that I shall be forgiven if I dwell at some length on the general reasons which have prompted Her Majesty's Government to introduce this legislation. As long ago as 1955, Mr. Sandys, who was then Minister of Housing and Local Government, stated that it was the Government's intention to review the provisions of the Rent Acts and that the conclusions which Her Majesty's Government reached would be announced in due course.
The decision embodied in this Bill is the progressive abolition of rent control and, in fact, a continuation of the reshaping of housing policy which was started two or three years ago. During that time, as we all know, there has been a marked improvement in the general overall housing picture, and a great deal of the credit for the successful policy of the Government can undoubtedly be handed, without fear or favour, to the
8
Prime Minister himself. For as a result of his actions when he was Minister of Housing, and of the action of those other members of Her Majesty's Government who have followed in his footsteps, the country is as a whole far better housed to-day than ever before in its history. Therefore it follows, and I think your Lordships will agree with me, that in the fulfilment of the Government's plan, instead of concentrating so much of our effort on the building of more and more houses we should now divert our effort to dealing with the neglected condition of existing houses.
Here, then, we are confronted with two objectives. The first is to root out and destroy the slums, and to replace them with decent homes. The drive in this direction is already under way and further stimulus has been given to local authorities by changes in the subsidy rate which have occurred over the last twelve months. The second objective is, of course, to preserve and make even better use of the existing stock of good houses, particularly those houses which are to let. In the preservation of decent houses, the main obstacles and the main difficulties arise entirely, in my judgment, from the stranglehold of rent control.
There can be no dispute, I think, in any part of the House that this problem of rent control is possibly the biggest social and economic problem of our time. It has been with us now—and we are apt to forget this—for over forty years; and although modifications have been made in the various Rent Acts from time to time, the legislation was never intended by its initiators to be permanent. What was introduced as an emergency measure, so many years ago, has now become deeply embedded in our lives and has left an appalling problem which urgently needs solution. We are all aware that the original Act was a product of war conditions, and it had to continue so long as those conditions lasted. But surely it has now had its day. It certainly served a vital purpose, but there is now, in our judgment, a need for radical amendment.
I suppose the essence of rent control is the freezing of rents at various, and very arbitrary, levels which have now become quite out of step with the rest of our economy; and if that observation is correct, then such a system as we have

9
operating to-day must be wrong. Indeed, if that were continued, we should soon reach the stage which was so aptly described in this House in 1952 by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who informed your Lordships that it looked to him that before very long 90 per cent. of the people in this country would be housed at the expense of others. My Lords, I think that the consequences of this system breed a form of creeping paralysis that must have increasingly dangerous results. In many cases the rents are so low that the tenant is not anxious to leave, even if his house is too big or highly unsuitable. Should he be anxious to move elsewhere, the chances of obtaining a house to let are far from bright, first because nobody else is willing to move either, and secondly because, if someone else has moved, the landlord will never create a new controlled tenancy. In this event it follows that mobility of labour is very largely impeded and, in all probability, under-occupation encouraged. This vicious circle, which I have endeavoured in a few words to describe to the House, affects particularly young married couples who are trying to find a house and a home.
Those of your Lordships who are knowledgeable in these matters are well aware that, in spite of controlled rents being low, they are full of inequalities, as widely different amounts are paid for exactly the same kind of accommodation. The figure is, in fact, entirely dependent upon when control happened to be imposed and what rent happened then to be passing, and it is, therefore, subject almost wholly to chance. Then again, we all know that houses are falling into disrepair and decay because repairs and renewals cannot possibly be undertaken at the existing controlled rent. The toll of house property is therefore high, and so long as the present system continues more and more houses are falling into disrepair year by year. I think this fact was fully appreciated by members of the Opposition who in 1952 published a pamphlet entitled The Welfare State. In that pamphlet they admitted that the Rent Acts, while protecting tenants from excessive rents (which of course was their original purpose), did not; allow an income from the property which was sufficient to maintain it in any decent state of repair.
10
It seems to me clear that one of the most important objects of rent reform as embodied in his Bill must therefore be to halt the steady and remorseless crumbling away of a national asset in housing. The lack of sufficient income from house property to be used for repair and improvement has caused many owners in recent years to sell rather than re-let their premises when they become vacant. The pool of houses for letting therefore continues to shrink and shrink, and the difficulties of securing rental accommodation become ever more pronounced.
I believe that too often the issue of rent control is presented to the public as a battle between the landlord and the tenant. Indeed, it has been said on more than one occasion that when this Bill becomes law things will occur which, at the moment, are too awful and too frightful to contemplate. Some say that rents will soar to unbelievable heights; others say that the extra rent will go into the pockets of the landlords who will be under no obligation whatever to repair their premises. The first of these fears was expressed when houses were decontrolled before the war. It was not realised then, and I do not believe for one moment that it will be realised now. The second is fully covered in the Bill, in respect of houses which remain controlled, by the disrepair provisions which occur in the First Schedule to the Bill.
What does that Schedule say? If the house is in disrepair, the tenant can serve on the landlord a list of the defects which he thinks the landlord should remedy. The landlord has six weeks to do the work or, on the other hand, he can undertake to do it within six months. If he does neither, or if there is any dispute, the tenant can apply to the local authority for a certificate of disrepair. If this certificate is issued, or if the landlord has failed to undertake and carry out the bargain into which he entered, no extra rent can be charged; and if any increase has been obtained in the meantime it must be refunded to the tenant. I think—and I believe this sincerely—that there can surely be no dispute at this time of full employment, high wages, and conditions of great prosperity in those industries whose products are purchased by the great masses of the people, that rent control is, in its present form, unfair, uneconomic and entirely and absolutely wasteful.

11
Some noble Lords will probably wish me to remind the House of the size of the problem which confronts us to-day. In England and Wales there are about 13½ million houses and flats. Of this total some 3 million are owned by local or other public authorities, and practically all of these have never come within the scope of the existing Rent Acts. An additional 100,000 houses are privately owned and right outside rent control. There are, therefore, roughly about 10½ million houses which come within the scope of the existing Acts, and of that number 5 million are let unfurnished at controlled rents. It is with these houses that this Bill deals. The proposals contained in the measure fall under four main headings. First, to provide means for the progressive abolition of rent control. Secondly, to establish, for houses which remain in control in England and Wales, revised rent limits more in keeping with the present day value of money and the cost of maintenance. Thirdly, to permit in Scotland an increase in controlled rents, subject to conditions. Fourthly and lastly, to provide a minimum of four weeks' notice, on either side, for all lettings.
I think I might now turn to deal quite briefly with the principal clauses in this measure. The first clause applies to the 4¼ million houses which will remain, after the Bill has passed, in control in England and Wales. It fixes a maximum rent which is related to the gross value for rating purposes. And the gross value represents the estimate by the valuation officer of the fair market rent in the year 1939. It must therefore be multiplied by a factor to take account of changes in conditions since that time. What are those changes? Since 1939, everything in this country—except rent—has gone up. Retail prices have increased two and a half times; building and maintenance costs, three and a half times; and average earnings nearly three and three-quarter times. The Government have, therefore, come to the decision—and I believe it is fundamentally the right one—that it is reasonable to multiply the gross value by two in the normal case, where the landlord is responsible for all repairs other than internal decorations. Power is also given for the landlord to add an appropriate amount, as is usual,
12
for any rates he may pay or any services that he may render or provide. Subsection (2) of this clause refers to Part II of the First Schedule which, as I have already explained, enables the tenant to prevent a rent increase if the house is in disrepair.
Clause 2 deals with three matters, all of which are very important. First, the landlord cannot get a rent increase until he has served a notice on the tenant; and that notice cannot take effect for a period of three months. Secondly, when the notice has taken effect, the increase cannot exceed 7s. 6d. a week for a further period of six months. Thirdly, the tenant is safeguarded against a rent increase coming into effect if the house is in a clearance area or subject to a demolition or closing order or otherwise, as the clause says, statutorily unfit. Clause 5 re-enacts with slight modification the longstanding provision in the Rent Acts allowing the landlord to increase the rent by 8 per cent. of the cost to him of any improvements. Clauses 7 to 9, inclusive, deal entirely with Scotland, and my noble friend Lord Strathclyde will deal with them at a later stage in this debate.
Subsection (1) of Clause 10 releases a number of houses from rent control by a reduction in the rateable value limits for control. Subsection (2) provides that any new letting of any house below the rateable value limits for decontrol shall be free of all control, but the right of a widow or any other member of the family entitled to succeed to a statutory tenancy is safeguarded. Subsection (3) enables the Minister to reduce the rateable value limits by order, subject at all times to an Affirmative Resolution of both Houses. Clause 11 deals with furnished houses, and its main purpose is to take outside the scope of the 1946 Act accommodation which is above the new rateable value limit for "unfurnished" control. Clause 12, to which we attach the highest importance, provides that no premium may be charged for a period of three years for a house which has become decontrolled because of the lowering of the rateable value limits or which is let on an uncontrolled tenancy.
Clauses 13 and 14 provide for treating as a premium the requirement of a loan and restrict the requirement of rent in advance. Clause 15 adds an important

13
new safeguard for tenants of all houses, whether local authority, new towns corporation, housing trust or private lettings. In future, notice to quit must be for a period of at least four weeks. That is something quite new in the law of the land. Clause 24 lays down that the Act shall come into force one month after the Royal Assent is given. There are also eight Schedules to the Bill. Some of them I have already referred to in the course of my observations. I do not think your Lordships would wish me on this occasion to delay the House further by a detailed explanation of the others. They can always be raised again—and I have no doubt that they will be—at a future stage of the Bill.
I have tried as best I can to explain the main clauses of the Bill, and I must leave it to your Lordships, after you have had the opportunity of listening to the debate, to approve or reject the measure. If, however, the House should decline to give a Second Reading, so far as I can see there will be two alternatives open to us. One is to do nothing and to let the houses fall further into decay, with all the resulting evil; the other is to adopt what I understand is the Opposition's plan for the municipalising of all rent-controlled properties, which means, in fact, ultimately bringing them outside the scope of the Rent Acts and leaving all the tenants to the mercy of the local authorities. I suggest to your Lordships that neither of these alternatives is acceptable or practicable, and I therefore commend the Bill for Second Reading. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Monster.)
3.15 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Munster, who has moved the Second Reading of this Bill in his usual graceful and persuasive manner, need have no fear about what the House will do with the Bill. When he looks behind him and sees the numbers there, and looks in front of him and sees the numbers of noble Lords on this side, he can be quite sure that this Bill, or any other Bill he had brought forward, will receive a Second Reading. The noble Earl said that he did not deal with the Bill in a particularly controversial manner, and I propose to be no more controversial than he was. But there is no doubt at all that
14
the Bill, and justifiably, has raised great apprehensions and hostility throughout the country. The noble Earl recognised that and asserted that in some way the purpose of this Bill had been misrepresented. But he gave no instances. I thought that his quotations from my speeches were complimentary. I do not remember what I said in 1952. Evidently the noble Earl's memory is better than mine—or the memory of other people who have prompted him. Of course, he has taken the words out of their context—or they have been taken out of context for him—and I do not think that I need really explain the odd part of a speech to which I happened to give utterance in 1952.
As the noble Earl said, rent control has been in existence for forty years. He drew the inference from that that the time had come to stop it, pretty abruptly. I draw the inference that it has become a part of our institutions; that people have come to rely on security of tenure and the inability on the part of landlords arbitrarily to increase rents; and that the Government cannot terminate suddenly a system of that kind, take large numbers of people out of control arid leave them to the mercy of fate. And that is what the Bill does. Nobody desires to suggest that when control was first imposed it was intended to be permanent. It was imposed because there was a shortage of houses; and control should continue so long as there is a shortage of houses.
I assert—and the noble Earl did nothing to disprove it—that there still remains a great shortage of houses in this country of the kind with which we are concerned in this Bill. It may or may not be true, mathematically and statistically, that if you take all the houses in the country and all the families the country and divide the one by the other, you may get a sufficiency of houses—but that is not the test. What we are concerned with is whether we have a sufficiency of houses of the right kind in the right place at the right rent, to meet the needs of people who require them in different parts of the country. On that test, I can assure the noble Earl—and I am satisfied that my statement cannot be disproved—that there is a vast shortage of houses in many parts of the country and a general shortage in every part of the country. I admit that

15
there are certain anomalies and some hardships resulting from the present system of control, but the attempt to remedy these by means of the present Bill will create more hardships and more anomalies than it will remove.
This Bill is resented all the more because at the last General Election the Conservative Central Office indignantly denied that they would increase rents of rent-controlled premises. I should like to quote a little exchange of confidences that took place at the time of the General Election between the Conservative Central Office and my Party. Mr. Aneurin Bevan had said at Huddersfield on May 10:
" There are 5 to 6 million rent-controlled houses in Britain and I prophesy all these rents will be increased if they "—
meaning the Conservatives—
" return."
There is a definite statement. What was the reply of the Conservative Central Office? Two days later they issued a denial, and this is what they said:
" This is reminiscent of an earlier canard of Mr. Hugh Dalton, who said at the Margate Conference on 2nd October, 1951, that a general permission to raise rents everywhere was what the Conservatives wanted."
They went on to say that there was no more truth in the report circulated by Mr. Bevan than there was in Mr. Dalton's insinuation of October, 1951.
I should like to ask the noble Earl, or the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, what happened between May 10, 1955, when this definite denial was made, and later on in the year, when, as the noble Earl, Lord Munster, explained, Mr. Duncan Sandys decided that the time had come for an increase of rents all round. I have no doubt that when the statement was made it was made in all sincerity in May, 1955, in the face of an Election, there is no doubt that the Conservative Party had no thought of increasing rents if they were returned. But in October, 1955, once they had been returned, they changed their minds. I should like an explanation of that Certainly it was not that there was an increased number of houses in between those two dates. Was it that by that time the Conservative Party had decided on their "get tough" policy? Whatever it was, this was a dramatic change, and it requires considerable justification.
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I assert, first of all, that this Bill will inflict great hardship on a large number of families. The noble Earl, Lord Munster, drew attention to the fact that wages had increased and that there was general prosperity in the country. But most people have based their standard of life on the rent that they pay, and they find some difficulty, with the increasing cost of living, in making ends meet. The number of families that will remain in controlled dwellings when this Bill is passed is about 5¼ million. The number of houses that will remain in control (I do not intend to weary your Lordships with statistics) is somewhat less, but I am allowing for the fact that in a number of cases these houses are shared by more than one family. The increase in rent will in many cases be quite considerable. In some cases it will amount to more than £1 a week, and in the case of 1¼ million families the increase will be between 10s. and 15s. a week.
I invite the House to consider, first of all, what will be the effect on the national economy. Almost every working-class tenant will suffer some increase in rent: It will bring about a substantial increase in the cost of living, and will clearly justify demands for an increase in wages, with the continuation and accentuation of the inflationary spiral. That will be effect number one. The next effect is that in a considerable number of cases the tenants will be unable to meet the increased rent. It has been estimated that about £17 million to £18 million a year of the increased rent will have to be met out of public funds by the National Assistance Board. So what will really happen is that the public will be paying for the increased rent to the extent of £17 million to £18 million a year. Further, in the case of many old age pensioners, widows and others who are living on very narrow means, the increased rent may well induce people to go to Public Assistance in order to meet the extra amount. Then there is the effect on health. Many families are living on the very edge of poverty—they just about make ends meet—and any increase in rent will inevitably be at the expense of food. That is, unfortunately, an experience which many medical officers of health have found in the case of new housing estates, where people go on to these estates and pay a higher rent than they have been accustomed to

17
and find they can meet the rent charge only at the expense of food for themselves and their children. Indirectly, this may well result in a charge on the medical health services.
The increase is alleged to be due to the fact that repairs cost more, and it is suggested that landlords will be enabled by means of this increase to carry out repairs. If that is the purpose, this Bill is most ineffective to induce or to compel landlords to utilise the additional rent for the purpose of carrying out repairs. The noble Earl began to describe the First Schedule, which sets out the machinery which enables a tenant to require a landlord to carry out repairs. I think he got as far as explaining that if a landlord gave an undertaking to do repairs he had six months in which to do them. The noble Earl, quite wisely, did not ask the House to go through this Schedule. It provides for no fewer than six occasions for going to the county court; and at each stage the tenant is compelled to go to the county court to get relief. In the case of a really persistent tenant, who is determined to get the repairs done and takes every step open to him, it might well take him two years before he could get a decision of the court which would justify him in withholding the rent or requiring the landlord to do the repairs.
I would invite the noble Earl to take this First Schedule away with him on his holidays. He will have to come back to it after the holidays on the Committee stage. Allowing for the fact that when a person makes an application to the county court he does not get an immediate date, but may have two or three months to wait before he gets a hearing, I think the noble Earl will find that my estimate of about two years before a tenant can actually get relief is not exaggerated.
I would ask why it is not possible, in a case where a house requires repairs, if a tenant gets a certificate from the local authority, as laid down in the Schedule, for the landlord to be given, say, three weeks to do the repairs and the landlord fails to make a start and to proceed with it with all promptness, for it to be open to the tenant to do the repairs himself and charge the landlord with the cost. The landlord could then go to the county court and take the
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initiative himself. That would be a far better thing than making the tenant go to the county court on possibly no fewer than six occasions.
One of the justifications advanced for the increase in rent is the hardship caused to landlords. Everyone else has had his income increased, so the noble Earl—said workers by more than 300 per cent., so why not the landlord? I suggest that this statement is greatly exaggerated. If rent control was first imposed forty years ago, there must be very few of the original landlords alive today. In the vast majority of cases, rent-controlled property has been acquired by property companies, or even by individuals, at a price which reflected the rent that was being obtained as a result of rent control. Therefore, the people who bought this property—and I say they constitute the vast majority of landlords—are getting a reasonable return on their outlay, and have no complaint. Any increase in rent would merely be an un-covenanted benefit to them.
In any event, landlords are not the only people who have suffered from the diminished value of money. There are many other categories, and this country is not in a position to give everybody a guarantee that in no circumstances will the value of his money not be diminished. There are the pensioners—people who have become entitled to a pension at a certain rate. The cost of living having increased many-fold, they are not cushioned against the increase; their pensions remain the same. There are persons whose money was invested at fixed rates of interest, or in debentures bearing a fixed rate of interest. They get exactly the same income as they did years ago, when prices were much lower. They are not cushioned. People who have taken out endowment policies find that, by the time their policies mature, the value of the amount they receive is much less than they had bargained for. So there is no particular reason why landlords as a class should be cushioned against any decrease in the value of money. Moreover, as I have said, this applies to a minority of them, and certainly not to a majority.
The second justification put forward is the cost of repairs, and I have already dealt with that. I have said that it is not true that the number of houses we now have is sufficient for the population or

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that there is no housing shortage. One has only to look at the housing lists of the larger local authorities to see that that is so. In London alone, there are 150,000 families on the waiting list. London County Council have already announced that they are quite unable to provide for them, and that, at best, they will be able to provide for only about 2,000 in the next few years. Of this 150,000, I understand that over 50,000 are urgent cases—people who badly need houses for health and other special reasons. Similar circumstances apply in practically every large town in the country: Glasgow, Birmingham, Manchester, Bristol, and so on. Furthermore, although for a year or two we have built a substantial number of houses, the number being built to-day is much lower. There has been a great drop in the number of houses being built, as noble Lords can see from the monthly returns that are issued by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. Furthermore—and this is a factor we tend to forget—the population of this country is steadily increasing, so that every year there are some 75,000 to 100,000 more houses needed. That, in itself, will tend to make the position worse.
Yet at this time, with little or no evidence that accommodation will be available, the Government have chosen to decontrol some 810,000 dwellings, representing up to 1 million families who will be placed at the mercy of landlords. The noble Earl skated rather thinly over the provisions of Clause 10 of the Bill. It is true that the full effects of this clause will not be felt for about one and a half years—I admit that. But this is not due to the initial thoughts of the Government: the period was increased as a result of great pressure from both sides in another place. It is true that if a tenant can make an agreement with the landlord at any time during the eighteen months as to the rent that will be payable, and begins paying the increased rent at once, he may get three years security of tenure. But does anyone imagine that that is a free bargain into which the tenant is entering? Is he not doing this largely under duress? What freedom of choice has he?—either to get out, or to pay what a landlord will demand. There is no machinery in the Bill—and I wonder why there is not—to ensure that a landlord can do no more
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than charge a reasonable rent, recognising, if you like, that costs have gone up and that he is entitled to a fair return. If you take that view, well and good, but why is it necessary to place the tenant entirely at the mercy of the landlord? What one will find is that in many cases a tenant placed in that position will either have no choice but to pay whatever a landlord demands or be forced to go out and buy a house, with the result that, because of the increased demand, the price of houses will rise substantially.
I am not suggesting for a moment that every landlord will behave in this way—I would not suggest that—but landlords are as mixed as Members of your Lordships' House, and a very large number of landlords will do so. It is well known that many landlords are waiting for the day when they will get possession. They will refuse to negotiate with their tenants. They seek vacant possession of their houses so that they will become available for sale. It will also be the case, in some instances, that they will do that so that the houses may become available for letting as furnished accommodation. In either case, whether the property is being used for sale or whether it is being furnished and let as furnished accommodation, it will reduce the amount of accommodation that will be available for families who have become decontrolled.
Among those who will be most hit are those who are struggling along to pay the existing rent. As I have said, in connection with the rent-controlled tenants, people on pensions and small fixed incomes, living from hand to mouth and already worried about carrying on in view of the rising cost of living, will now for the next three years or more live in terror of what is going to happen. They cannot afford to pay more rent; they cannot buy a house; they are horrified at the thought of Public Assistance. What are they to do? To put such people in that position, as this Bill does, is one of the cruellest acts I have ever seen perpetrated in a Public Act of Parliament. Surely it was not necessary to put such people in the position of having to lose their homes. Surely the Bill could have provided for a measure of security. I could understand that a landlord might, for personal reasons, really want

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possession of his house. The existing Rent Acts already provide for that, if a landlord wants a house to live in himself, for a member of his family or for some other proper reason, he can always go to the court, put his case and get possession. On what other grounds should a landlord need to get possession of his house at a time when there is still a considerable shortage? I submit that it is wholly unnecessary to deprive so many unfortunate people of the benefits of security of tenure.
It is well known that many of these properties that are about to be decontrolled have been acquired by speculators, people who have bought the properties since this Bill was made public. Indeed, there was quite a serious debate about this in another place, when a number of Members who are supporters of the Conservative Party put down an Amendment that the Bill should not operate in the case of properties which have been bought after the publication of the Bill. This Amendment was actually carried with the consent of both sides of the House, but on Report stage the Minister was able to marshal his forces and get the Amendment withdrawn and the original provision reinstated. As I have said, the Bill provides for fifteeen months' respite. A considerable number of supporters of the Government in another place thought that that was too short a period, and efforts were made to get the period extended to three years, and in some cases to five years. This was clone not by members of my Party but by supporters of the Government.
If the Government really believed that decontrol would provide the pool of houses that the noble Earl, Lord Munster, suggested, they would have made sonic provision in the Bill to facilitate exchange. It may well be that there are a limited number—but I think only a limited number—of families who are occupying accommodation larger than they need. One finds them, of course, in the categories of houses that are outside the rent control range. There are many families of that kind who are occupying far more accommodation than they need. I would admit that there may be a few who are living in houses which were originally suited to their requirements but which are now too large for them.
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If the Government had really meant that these houses should be given up and used by larger families in order to make the best use of the accommodation, surely they would have facilitated the opportunity of making exchanges; but every attempt to introduce into the Bill some machinery for facilitating exchanges of accommodation has been defeated. An attempt was made to say that in the case of such exchanges neither of the properties should become decontrolled. That is only reasonable, because nobody is going to exchange a rent-controlled house for a decontrolled house; but that was not acceptable to the Government. A further Amendment which was put forward provided that landlords should be encouraged to facilitate exchanges. Again, this was not accepted by the Government. Therefore, I cannot believe that the Government are really serious in their belief that the effect of this Bill will be to provide more accommodation and enable people to move about freely from one place to another.
As if everything I have said is not sufficient, the Government have introduced a provision in Clause 10 (3) about which the noble Earl said little, but which enables the Minister by order at any time to take further categories of controlled houses out of control. He can do it, not by bringing forward a new Bill and getting further legislation but by a mere order. And this order can apply to any category of house or any district as against another district. All that is required is an Affirmative Resolution of each House. But the Minister need not give any reasons at all. He need not satisfy any conditions. He can settle this question in an entirely arbitrary way, and, with that confidence which the noble Earl expressed that the House would accept this Bill, he knows perfectly well that any Affirmative Resolution put forward by a Minister will be carried, both in this place and in another. The fact is that such an order would not seriously he tested in either House; it would be quite sufficient, as we know, for the order to be submitted.
I think I have said enough to show that, in my view and in the view of my noble friends, this is a thoroughly bad Bill. It is ill-considered, unjust, abrupt and harsh. It will inflict grave hardship on many families least able to sustain the

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changes effected by the Bill. We on this side most strongly oppose this Bill as a bad example of class legislation, and we ask the Government to think again, most seriously, even at this late hour, in the hope that they will decide not to proceed further with this measure.

REMUNERATION OF DOCTORS AND DENTISTS
3.51 p.m.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, it might be convenient if I intervened for a moment at this stage to make a statement which was made by the Prime Minister in another place on the remuneration of doctors and dentists. For convenience, I will give it in the Prime Minister's own words:
" Before the Royal Commission was appointed, I explained that its appointment did not preclude an interim adjustment in advance of, and without prejudice to, its recommendations. An adjustment was made in the remuneration of junior hospital staff, both medical and dental, at the beginning of this month, when their remuneration was increased by 10 per cent. In announcing this increase I said that we were considering what should be done by way of an interim adjustment for the other doctors and dentists covered by the Commission's terms of reference.
" The Government have now decided to increase the basic remuneration of senior hospital medical and dental staff, including consultants arid specialists and all dentists engaged in general dental services, by 5 per cent. from the 1st May next, and from the same date to add 5 per cent. to the aggregate net remuneration of general practitioners—that is, remuneration after the deduction of practice expenses. We propose to consult representatives of the profession as to the best method of distributing this sum between individual practitioners.
" In the meantime, the Royal Commission have been asked to regard their work as a matter of urgency, and have in fact already, I understand, held six meetings. I hope that the letters I have exchanged with the then President of the Royal College of Physicians, together with the statement issued by the
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Chairman of the Royal Commission, will reassure those who have expressed concern about the terms of reference. I hope now that all concerned will turn their thoughts to the task of working out a satisfactory basis for future remuneration, and for keeping it under review."
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl the Leader of the House for making that statement. There are some aspects of it which one can at once welcome—such as that the Government have now retreated from the original non possumus attitude that they took upon the matter some months ago. However, I should like to know exactly how the two interim rates of increase were arrived at: 10 per cent. in the case of one block, and 5 per cent. in the case of the other. Has this 5 per cent. interim payment already been agreed with the representatives of the profession? Is the consultation with the representatives to be only as to how the block amount is to be distributed? I think we ought to have a little more information on that matter, if it is possible. I am glad to know that the terms of reference are to be adjusted to meet the views which have been expressed both in your Lordships' House and in another place. When the noble Earl the Leader of the House has time, perhaps he could have a copy of the correspondence printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT, SO that we may have it before us.
LORD REA: My Lords, we on these Benches would like to endorse what the noble Viscount has just said. It seems to me that the Government are changing their point of view in a most favourable way, possibly using the Victorian example of Eric, or Little by Little, rather than agreeing on a final arrangement. To me the most important words in the noble Earl's statement were that the matter is being regarded "as a matter of urgency." I think we all welcome that, and wish the best of good luck to this Commission.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, may I deal first with the last point made by the noble Viscount? I will see that copies of the correspondence are made available. I welcome the comments in regard to the extension of the terms of reference of the Royal Commission. On the matter regarding the 5 per cent., I

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may say that that is, of course, a Government decision, and the consultation which will take place is as to the allocation to individuals of the 5 per cent. I hope that that point is now clear to the noble Viscount.

RENT BILL
3.55 p.m.
Debate on the Second Reading resumed.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, before I say a few words on this Bill I should like first to apologise to the noble Earl who moved the Second Reading because I was not in my place when he began his speech. I can assure him that I meant no discourtesy to himself, or to the Bill. It is just another example of one trying to be in two places at once.
Coming to the Bill itself, I think I can say that, in general, noble Lords on these Benches approve the principle behind it. We have felt for some time that there should be some decontrol of rents—not in a very violent fashion, but rather in a gradual way. At the same time, we realise that decontrol would cause quite a number of people to pay an increase in rent. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that the increases are going to be rather bigger than one thought possible at one time. I agree with him, too, that they will cause considerable hardship to many people. Whether it will be possible to modify this state of affairs by making Amendments on the Committee stage, I do not know; but I certainly think that we should see whether we can do something to curtail the damage which will be done to some people.
Another point about which I am rather worried is whether the provisions in the Bill for the repair of dwellings will be as successful as people hope they will be. That is an important problem facing the country at the moment. We have a large number of houses which are over 75 years old. I am informed that the figure is somewhere in the neighbourhood of four million, but if that is not correct I am prepared to accept a lower figure. I think, however, that there are somewhere in the neighbourhood of four million houses which are more than 75 years old. The Act passed in 1954 represented an attempt to get some repairs done to premises, but the provisions of the Act were too timid and not a great deal of work has been
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done. In some parts of the country conditions are particularly bad—I would mention London, the Midlands and the North. Some extremely bad houses exist in those districts, possibly not bad enough to be pulled down under an order, but certainly requiring a great deal of repair. In North London, in a part which I know quite well, certain houses are to be pulled down and others are not. From the outside they look most attractive. They are rather pretty houses, built in about 1850 or 1860. When they have a little paint put on them they look most attractive. But inside one finds quite a different story, and a large amount of repair is necessary. That is why I should have liked to see more incentive given to landlords, to encourage them to repair houses.
As I think has been pointed out already, a large number of landlords are not wealthy people. A considerable proportion of them have only one or two houses and they just cannot afford the money for repairs. Even though landlords may now be able legally to put up the rent, some of the tenants may not be able to pay the rent; therefore that will not work, and it certainly will not bring in enough money properly to carry out the repairs. I should like to see an extension of the policy which enables local authorities to make loans for improvements, so that there might also be loans for repairs, for it seems to me that there is going to be great difficulty in drawing the line between repairs and improvements. Though there may be a big difference at one end of the scale, the difference must from time to time be very slight.
It has been said that the Bill will help to deal with those cases where premises have too few people living in them. I rather agree with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in doubting whether the number of such premises is very great. One is told that there are many instances where families have gone away and the old couple continue to live in a house far too large for them. I should like to know whether it has been possible to obtain the figure of those cases. It would be extremely difficult to find out, but even if it were possible to do so, I doubt whether the number would be found to be very large. I suppose one might say that if there were any number of people living in houses too large for them and the rent

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were put up, that might encourage them to take in lodgers to make a little more money, although that is not a very charitable idea. Failing that, if they cannot afford to pay the extra rent they will have to move.
Local authorities, therefore, should be encouraged to provide accommodation for old people in new premises, so far as possible. Some local authorities have done a great deal in that way, and one finds on new housing estates that there are flats or houses for old people. On the other hand, some local authorities have been extremely backward in this respect, and they should be encouraged to do more. It might be possible for a court to refuse to give an order for possession, if a landlord wanted to turn out an old couple or pensioners, in cases where the local authority have not done anything to make suitable accommodation available for such people.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, brought out one point which I thought very attractive and which I was going into at greater length than I will now do—the question of an exchange of houses between people who want to move from one part of the world to another. That has always seemed to me an extremely sensible thing to do and I cannot see why some attempt has not been made to do it. I concede that there would be considerable administrative difficulties involved, but, as those who have come across such difficulties will know, the thing to do with them is to overcome them. They can be, and usually are, overcome. I am never impressed with the argument of the difficulty of administration. Often it is the civil servant who does not know what to do who speaks of administrative difficulty, in order to cover up a multitude of sins. Another point which I do not like is that the Minister has power to vary the value of decontrolled houses by order. I am sure that that is something which should be properly debated by both Houses. I would rather see it done by legislation than by an order from the Minister on which there is never a proper chance of discussion.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, the noble Lord will realise that it is done by an Affirmative Resolution of both Houses.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I entirely agree, but even then there is not so much chance for debate as when new legislation is brought in. One thing which we should do—and I trust we shall do something towards it—is to encourage repairs to existing properties, do what we can to build houses and, so far as possible, see whether the present cost of building can be reduced. I know little about the subject, but one sometimes comes across cases where the cost of building seems very high, and one hears stories (though I do not know whether they are anything more than that) to the effect that a number of price rings exist in the building trade as well as in others. If that is true, I hope the matter will go before the Monopolies Commission. It seems to me to be one of the most important things with which they could deal: for proper housing, is at the bottom of all public health and most preventive medicine. If people have not go proper housing, they will not lead proper, healthy lives, no matter what they are paid or what social services are put forward for them. We have done a great deal in that line but still seem to lag a long way behind. I am sure that money properly spent on housing and housing repairs will go a long way towards cutting down some of the expense of the National Health Service, which is something we should all very much welcome.
4.6 p.m.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, whatever we may think about the detailed provisions of this Bill, there is no doubt that Her Majesty's Government are to be congratulated on having produced a novel approach to a very large part of the Rent Restrictions Act—by that, I mean the method of settling rents at whatever level they should be. I have always looked upon rent restriction as, in essence, a form of rationing of a scarce commodity. In the First War, when the original Act was introduced, those who brought it in must have had in mind that this was a temporary arrangement, introduced because during the war houses were scarce. The object was to keep the price fairly reasonable and to make it as fair as it could be for those who could not afford higher rents.
Through the years between the wars, as the housing situation got better there has been a gradual process of easing of the

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Acts. At one time we had decontrol by vacant possession. We had decontrol of blocks of houses of different rateable values. In 1920, there was an Act to authorise increases of rents. All that was proceeding in a fairly regular and orderly way until the Second War came. Then the Act of 1939 changed everything. I have often wondered whether that Act, which was deemed to be necessary as a means of rationing, to avoid the scarcity resulting from the war really did any good until 1945. All that, however, is speculation which is now of no importance, because there is no doubt that by 1945, and in the years after the war, some extension of that kind was necessary. But it seems to me that, just as between the wars the rents of houses increased from time to time as they were decontrolled, we have now reached a situation where a further step must be taken. I remember that discussions before the war used to turn on a total number of about 13 million houses in the United Kingdom. I believe that the figure is now about 15 million. Though the population has increased, it seems clear that to some extent, at any rate, housing pressure has been reduced.
This seems to me an interesting Bill because it attempts to be a logical development of the process of modernising the Acts which one hopes will come to an end at a time when the housing shortage ends, when rent restriction will no longer be necessary. The Bill attempts to provide some simplification of the Rent Acts and, at the same time, adds to them in number. In the Eighth Schedule there is a whole list of Acts of Parliament which are repealed in part, though I am sorry to say that the parts repealed are very small—just one or two sections here and there. And to other parts there are Amendments. In all, twenty Acts are involved in this way, not all of them Rent Restrictions Acts—there are Housing Acts, and others.
That leads me to suggest, since it looks as if rent restriction is likely to continue for a good few years yet, that whatever is the right step to take at the present time, it, would surely be of great benefit to the public at large if all these Acts could be put together. That has been the request of, I think, all, but certainly the last two, departmental committees which have considered the Rent Restrictions Acts and, have found the difficulties
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they bring for people. Not being a lawyer, I cannot put the matter in a way which would explain the necessity for some sort of consolidation, but I feel that the ordinary person suffers a good deal from the difficulty of understanding all the different Acts. There is one interesting point in this Bill: in one place at least, in Clause 15, it goes outside the field of rent restricted houses, and provides for a minimum notice of four weeks for all houses that are let, many of which never have been, and never will be, within the Rent Restrictions Acts, including local authority houses. That in itself seems to me a good feature. I personally would feel that the period of a month might well be longer. That, however, is a matter of detail.
It seems, therefore, that in this process of development of the Acts there are two things that have to be considered; and the Government have considered them both. One is what is a fair and proper rent at the present time for a house which remains controlled; and the second is, how far is it safe to lift houses out of control without inflicting hardship. As to the first point, it is not necessary to repeat the obvious thing which is so well known, that not only are the rents low but they are extraordinarily inconsistent, settled by the accident of history and with no reason at all in them.
It was always said that it would never be possible to have a regular system of controlling the rents of rent-restricted houses until there was uniformity of rating. Now that we have it, the Government have, I think, taken a very wise decision in deciding to use the new rating assessments as the yardstick of what the rents should be. I myself never thought that the old rating system had such very wide variations from one local authority to another that it was not possible to use it as it was; but if we believe (and I think it is universally accepted as a fact) that the new system does give pretty good uniformity throughout the country, we must feel on safe ground when this new gross value is adopted as the basis for fixing maximum rents. I do not think one can say that twice the rateable value is excessive. Rateable values are, in fact, based on the 1939 value of the house—indeed, I think the noble Earl who introduced the Bill said that this is one of the few things which has increased only by twice since 1939.

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Here I would beg to differ from the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, because the period of that increase is from 1939, and I think he referred to the fact that many people who owned the houses in 1940 were no longer in existence and, therefore, would not suffer any loss by not having an increase in their return. I think the fair comparison would be between 1939 and the present time. Many of the houses, after all, are well below the rateable value of £30 which is the maximum figure if a property is to remain in control. If you work out the corresponding rent from the gross value of those houses, I think you will find that, even now, they are substantially below, at any rate, the later built of the local authority-owned houses. I myself very much doubt whether there would be any case at all to lead to further demands for wage increases on these grounds. There are, I think, only about 4½ million houses which are affected by these rent variation provisions, out of a total of nearly 15 million in the whole country; so that the fact that about one-third of the houses—and the cheapest ones—have their rents put up would hardly justify an increase for the whole working population, many of them living in newer and more modern houses already let at much higher rents than the figures to which these older ones are to be increased.
On the repairs Schedule, I have two points to which I would refer. I agree about the complication and delay to which Lord Silkin referred. I think he, with his legal knowledge, referred to six visits to the county court. It certainly seems a complicated procedure. I would say this for it: that it does one thing, which I believe is of great benefit. As I understand the matter, at the present time, as the Acts now are, there are only certain houses in respect of which it is possible to get a certificate of disrepair—that is, houses which come under the old control. I think I am right; no doubt I shall be corrected if I am wrong. Under this Bill it will be possible to get such a certificate for all houses which were under control up to the date of the passing of this Bill, whether they were under the new or old control; and the certificate of disrepair will be able to remove the increase which is granted by this Act. That means it applies to all houses which come within this series of Acts.
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On the other hand, there is a weakness in that here again the provision is so chancy, depending on what the pre-1957 rent was, if I may call it that. Because your Lordships can well imagine, remembering all we have heard of the large variation in rents paid for similar properties, that in the case of a good many of them there may be a very small increase due to the owner, in the form of rent, under this Act. The certificate of disrepair can only remove that small increase. In the case of other houses the permitted increase may be very much larger. In such cases the certificate of disrepair will be a much more powerful inducement for the owners to keep the houses in repair. I would rather have seen something following the certificate of disrepair which would deduct from the rent paid while the certificate was current a uniform percentage applicable to all houses which remain within control.
There is a point in Clause 5 (3) which has interested me very much. It concerns improvements. As I understand it, at the present time the tenant has the right to object to an improvement being carried out if he is asked to pay his 8 per cent. share in the form of rent. By the proviso to Clause 5 (3) it looks as if the right of the tenant is being taken away, because at the very end, where the subsection is talking about the tenant not being able to apply for a reduction or avoidment of his 8 per cent., the proviso uses the words:
" or if a tenant under the controlled tenancy consented in writing to the improvement ".
It looks as though, if he did not consent, it could be done in spite of him. That point, I feel, might be clarified.
There is a point of policy. In many cases, arguments were at one time widely used supporting the proposition that there were certain numbers of blocks of flats and rows of houses where improvements were necessary and desirable in the interests of the tenants, and that those tenants were willing in most cases, to pay the increase of 8 per cent. on the cost but one or two often refused to pay and held up the whole scheme. It was argued, therefore, that in such cases the owner should have the right to go to court and get authority to carry out the improvements to the whole group of houses and charge 8 per cent. throughout. In future cases that might well be a valuable thing to

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have. It is worth while to consider putting this somewhere in Clause 5 with a proper safeguard against the proposal being made in an unreasonable way.
As to Clause 10, I do not know how one can feel certain that the £40 in London and the £30 elsewhere are the right figures. I should have liked to see either some argument supporting the use of these figures in these different areas or else some differentiation of areas and the appropriate rateable values with them. Without being able to quote any figures or statistics, I would imagine that it is generally felt that many of the larger cities have as bad and difficult housing problems as have many parts of London. I should not be at all afraid if I saw a schedule of different rateable values applicable to different local authorities in the country. And I do not think one need be afraid of boundaries. After all, we can be certain that local authorities always know their own boundaries, and there can never be any doubt as to where a house is. We accept the boundaries of London and the rest of the country, and we accept willingly and without question the boundary between England and Scotland.
I also feel a little doubtful whether, at this first stage, this figure of £40 in London is high enough. In that connection, unlike the noble Lord opposite, I rather like the idea that the Minister should have power to make orders varying the amounts and letting out certain groups of houses in certain areas. On the other hand, I should have preferred to see allied with Clause 10 (3) something in Clause 10 (1) whereby the Minister should have equally during this period of fifteen months power to delay certain groups of houses in certain areas from being decontrolled. It seems to me that during that fifteen months it will be possible to see what effect is likely to result from the decontrol operations, and lit should be possible to delay decontrol of houses of from £40 to £50 rateable value in London and £30 to £40 in Bristol or Plymouth or somewhere else—I do not know. I am not suggesting that there should be power to put back into control houses which have come out, but I say that, as a corollary to Clause 10 (3), there could well be in Clause 10 (1) power for the Minister to exercise some delay if it seems that the difficulties which are feared by some
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people are likely to eventuate. But I doubt whether those difficulties are really as great as they are thought to be.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, referred to people who buy up houses in the hope of selling them with vacant possession, and to the fact that people are not willing at the present time to let houses. If the idea is that owners will sell with vacant possession, and if nearly 800,000 houses become empty in fifteen months' time, it does not look to me as though there is the remotest possibility of finding buyers who have, or who can get, the money with which to buy all those houses so suddenly. Those who have experience of building societies and other institutions engaged in financing the purchase of small houses of this kind would very much query whether there is any possibility of these houses, in fact, being sold. That would seem to me to lead to the point that vacant possession value will probably disappear. There are only two things I think which have vacant possession value: controlled houses and farms which have their rents controlled by the Agriculture Act, 1947. If control is removed, I think that vacant possession value will tend to disappear also. It has, in fact, tended to diminish lately owing to the large number of houses available.
There is one point which I might interject, though it is perhaps hardly appropriate in a Second Reading debate. I notice that when importing this new method of settling rents the Government have brought in gross value and at the same time have adhered to the net value as a definition when a house comes out of control. It is a small point, but it seems to me that it might make matters easier if in both cases they said either "gross" or "net"—it would not seem to matter very much which, as they have to each other an almost constant relationship. One point in the Fourth Schedule seems a little difficult. On the three-year lease the intention, I see, is to persuade the owner to make a long lease so that he can get his rent increase straight away. But what I do not see there is the means whereby you can persuade him to carry out what I think is one of the objects of the Bill, particularly in the case of the larger houses (and, indeed, the over £40 houses will mostly be the ones affected): that is sub-dividing the house and still keeping the tenant in. I should like to

35
see something positive there, so that if the owner was willing to start his alterations and sub-divisions in some of the larger houses he should be able to start straight away and get his rent as soon as he can.
A further point of a similar kind in Clause 10 comes in the proviso to subsection (2). If an existing statutory tenant is given a lease of a building or part of it, the house does not become decontrolled. I do not quite understand that provision, because I should have thought that that would discourage owners from sub-dividing their houses and allowing the possibility of the former tenant of the whole house remaining in part of it. I think that that will be the object of many owners, particularly of those who wish themselves to live in part of their own houses and let the other part. After all, I think you have to try to think what inducements can be given to people to do the things you want them to do. I believe that that is what you want them to do, and I think that you might be able to persuade them by those means. As it is now, it seems to me that a person with perfectly genuine intentions who wants to do that is either debarred from getting any increase at all for fifteen months or is debarred from having part of his house decontrolled.
I fear that I have perhaps referred to detailed points rather than to matters of a more general nature such as are commonly considered in a Second Reading debate. But there is so much detail in this legislation that it is almost impossible to avoid it. I believe that this is a very useful Bill, which will do a great deal of good. I hope that the Government will be willing to consider Amendments on the lines which have been put forward this afternoon; and although one cannot but feel uncertain of the effect of the decontrol of these 800,000 houses, I believe that the Government are right in saying that it will not cause anything like so much upheaval as has been suggested.
4.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, it seems to me that the one thing which has emerged from this debate and from the debates in another place is the unfortunate fact that for the first time for a long period the two main Parties are in
36
head-on collision on housing policy. In this Bill, the Government say that what we used to call working-class houses must continue to be supplied by private enterprise, and must be well maintained and let at reasonable rents. On the other hand, the Labour Party, in their pamphlet on housing, say that the whole of this idea is absurd and that the only solution is—to quote the pamphlet itself:
" municipalisation on a scale that will dwarf into insignificance any other such measures yet undertaken."
Hitherto, administratively, it has always been possible to maintain some continuity; because although one Party concentrated more on municipal housing and the other on private housing, it was always possible to fit in one with the other. But now there seems to be some prospect that every few years there will be a fundamental change of policy at Whitehall: an unfortunate prospect for the many thousands of people who are working in a voluntary capacity in local government housing associations, quite apart from the owners themselves.
I also think that this head-on collision is going to accentuate the emotional and unreasoning feeling that now circles round housing. As a boy, I remember that the same sort of feeling existed on the question of the people's food. Whenever some measure was taken with the object of improving agriculture, it was met with the cry, "Your food will cost you more," very much in the same way as any measure designed to avoid the dereliction of houses has been met with the cry, "Your rents will go up." Yet what an astonishing change has come over our thinking about agriculture. The two main Parties not only support each other but vie with each other in proposing a highly scientific and complex structure of prices and guarantees. In fact, there is almost a bipartisan policy with regard to agriculture, to its very great advantage, the only exception being over the question of the agricultural cottage, which is still bedevilled by Party politics and which has suffered very much in consequence. What a wonderful thing it would be if a similar bipartisan policy could be applied to housing and if there were a similar revolution in thinking about housing! Then we could feel that we were getting somewhere. I agree that it sounds almost presumptuous for a Back-Bencher

37
to express such views in present circumstances; but as one who is connected with administration in various capacities, I cannot help wondering what are the real prospects in future.
I suppose that this Bill will be passed very much in its present form and that the campaign against it will be continued; and if there is hardship and repairs are not done, we shall probably hear all about it. For myself, I believe that the Bill will work differently in different areas. As I have mentioned in your Lordships' House before, movements are going on in the population, particularly towards London and the South East, and while this is happening there will never be enough houses or, for that matter, enough schools or any of the other benefits of the Welfare State. For instance, I believe that some elderly people may have a rough time. They not only will be endangered by the desirability of putting up rents, but also will be threatened by displacement to make room far key workers. But in other areas I think that the Bill will work without any difficulty at all.
I am glad to see in Clause 10 (3), which has been referred to, that the Minister takes power to decontrol regionally. That is the next stage of decontrol. But it is not clear why that principle has not been applied in the present Bill. As I have said, I have no doubt that any difficulty there is in the Bill will have plenty of publicity. What I am not so certain about is whether the Opposition scheme will get equal publicity. I know that in another place it was difficult to refer to it on the Second Reading of the Government Bill. I hope that your Lordships will not think that these remarks are out of order, because the mere existence of this scheme may have an immediate effect on the prospects of this Bill. The Labour scheme provides for the acquisition of a large number of rented houses. Clearly, that in itself is not a great encouragement to owners to spend money on improving them or in repairing them now. Recently I had to decide to carry out a number of cottage improvements. I am glad that I have done them, but I cannot regard them as an attractive investment financially, and feel that the existence of this scheme might dissuade people who have not quite made up their minds.
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I think that it might also have less obvious consequences. It has been suggested to me by well-informed people that the effect of decontrol, plus the shadow of the Labour scheme, might increase the number of owners who desire to sell their houses. I was interested to hear the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, say that he thought that that danger might be exaggerated; but if there is a danger, I think it would be accentuated by the publication of the Labour scheme. For that reason, I think that we are entitled to find out so far as we can what are the real intentions of noble Lords opposite. I have read the pamphlet, Homes for the Future, more than once. It might be my stupidity, but it seems to me to be capable of a number of interpretations. It may mean what the Conservative Central Office says it means: that 6½ million houses will be taken over wholesale as from the appointed date. From some references in the pamphlet, it may mean that the process will be much longer drawn out. It may mean little more than a kind of extension of slum clearance, the acquisition of houses to recondition them rather than to pull them down, in which case I cannot conceive that the Conservative Party can object to it, seeing that that has been done successfully under existing law in Birmingham and elsewhere today.
My own guess is that if this pamphlet were submitted to local authorities, as apparently is the intention, it would emerge in a somewhat different form from that contemplated by the Conservative Central Office. I suppose that quite constitutionally Parliament can order local authorities to do anything they like. They can say, theoretically, to some of the smaller borough councils and district councils, "You are now looking after 700 houses; as from the appointed date you will look after 3,000. If it means doubling or trebling your staff, or doubling or trebling the amount of time taken by your members in committee, well, to use the vernacular, that is just too bad." Parliament can say those things and be constitutionally justified. But I have never known any case where a Government talked like that to local authorities if they wanted anything done.
When I think of the sort of approach made to local authorities on other issues—for example, on local government reform, which, incidentally, is touched on

39
in this pamphlet—and when I think of the innumerable consultations and processes which have been going on for some eight years, and how very gingerly the matter was approached, the somewhat dictatorial language of this pamphlet does not seem to me to be very realistic. I cannot believe that even a majority of local authorities would wish to take on a vast and nebulous new responsibility with any degree of enthusiasm. But if they did acquire these houses, surely the first thing they would do would be to raise the rents.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, made a great point about the hardships that would be suffered by the poor when rents were increased. But surely that danger is equally great if the houses are to be acquired by local authorities. The noble Lord said that people would be driven on to public assistance. Again, I have never known any local government, new town corporation or even housing association have the slightest hesitation in making old people go on to public assistance; otherwise, they would be subsidising out of local funds what ought to be borne by national funds—one of the greatest crimes that can be committed by local government officials. That is another point that we might well ask noble Lords opposite to develop. What I have said, of course, is all guess-work. But I think it is fair to ask noble Lords to explain that point, and the question of which of the interpretations I have suggested can be adopted.
It would certainly seem to the uninitiated that noble Lords opposite are in somewhat of a dilemma: either they are going to do a great deal in a short time, with some of the consequences that I have been suggesting, or they are going to do less, or perhaps the same amount, in a much longer time. In that case, what will happen? How do they suggest that all this residue of housing should be kept in commission and improved? That is what I understand to be the main object of this Bill: to produce better houses, even at the cost of higher rent. Whether the Government will succeed in that remains to be seen; it may be that they will succeed in some cases, but not in others. But as an experiment, and, as I think, a courageous experiment, to deal with a situation that has for years been described by politicians of all
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Parties as "political dynamite", nobody can accuse the Government of introducing a vote-catching device. In my humble capacity I would favour a bipartisan approach to this problem. I was glad to see, in regard to one organisation with which I am concerned—namely, the housing association movement—that both Parties seem to have a good word to say for that. It is the only way in which I see any sign of a bipartisan approach. It seems to me that the Government scheme is the only one that seeks to attack this difficult problem in an honest way. I hope that their calculations will prove to be right, and I support in general the principle of the Bill.
4.45 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, it is common ground, I think, in all sections of the House that this is a measure of first-class importance. Whatever differences there may be between the Parties about the remedies that should be applied, it is, I think, impossible for noble Lords or others who have studied the position to deny the seriousness or the nature of the evils with which it is the duty of the Government to contend. My noble friend who moved the Second Reading in such an able and comprehensive speech said that he would not make many quotations from leaders of the Party opposite which would support the Government's case. I agree with him that it would be easily possible to do so; I have read, and have available, a great number of them. However, I agree that to quote them might be to embark on unnecessary controversy; and it might be more useful to give a single quotation, which I think sets out the facts clearly and well, from a source which is often quoted with respect in different quarters of this House.
On the Second Reading of this Bill in another place an interesting extract was given from a leading article in the Manchester Guardian of last November. This short extract states the main problems so clearly, to my mind, that I venture to quote it to your Lordships' House. This is what the Manchester Guardian said about rent restriction:
" It discourages the landlord from keeping old houses in good repair, and so increases the rate at which they become uninhabitable. It further diminishes the number of houses to let by encouraging the sale of those which fall vacant, and deterring the letting of those which

41
have previously been owner-occupied. It creates a vested interest in a sitting tenancy, and so prevents large houses from being made available for growing families by the removal of shrinking households to smaller premises; by the same token, it inhibits the movement of redundant workers to places where their labour is needed."
Every sentence of that quotation is true, and each one has great public importance.
I have no such advantage as my noble friend Lord Ridley, who speaks with so much authority on all questions relating to housing, or my noble friend Lord Gage, who has so much knowledge of local authorities and other aspects of this subject. No one, however, who was a Member of the other place for some twenty years, and who was so often, as we all were, consulted by constituents on housing matters, can have remained ignorant of the problems with which this Bill seeks, and I think seeks courageously, to deal. But I have an even earlier recollection of concern with these matters than my experience as a Member of Parliament.
I remember, as I am certain any other legal practitioner of my age will remember, what chiefly occupied the county courts immediately after the First World War, when some of us were beginning at the Bar. I suppose the great majority of cases concerned that very Act of 1920, which is the first of the Acts mentioned in the Schedule to which my noble friend Lord Ridley referred, the Act which was so long known, and in fact, for certain purposes is still known, as the principal Act. As my noble friend Lord Ridley Nightly said, we all knew at that time that some such Act was necessary for the immediate purpose for which the legislation had been introduced. But the defects of that legislation were even then becoming noticeable. I venture to say that, whatever differences on political matters there might have been among those of us who heard these cases day by day, if there had been any one of us who had prophesied that thirty-eight years later that Act would still remain a vitally important Act on this whole subject, he would have been regarded as a lunatic, so absurd would such a prophecy have seemed.
I think that Her Majesty's Government made careful inquiries, and made a most skilful study of this subject, even before they produced the first draft of this Bill.
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I think, however, that Her Majesty's Government would themselves be the first to recognise—as, indeed, my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government has expressly recognised—that the Bill as originally introduced was improved in another place by the efforts of members of all Parties. I hope that under the skilled leadership of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor we may, perhaps, make some further improvements at a later stage in this House. Nevertheless, it may be true that, when all that has been done, there may still be defects in the Act, as it appears on the Statute Book, that only experience will reveal. That is possible. I believe, however, it is true that an historian, 100 years hence, who studies our internal legislation of the first sixty years of this century, will give credit and praise to a Government which had the courage arid the skill to tackle this problem and wall greatly prefer its reputation to that of various earlier Governments which preferred to do nothing because the problem was so difficult.
There is a great deal that is common to both sides in this great controversy. In spite of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, I would say that two things are admitted by the Government and by the Opposition. Those two things are that there must be a large measure of decontrol, and there must be a rise in rents. Whatever may be said for or against the alternative policy of the Socialist Party, it is quite clear that their policy of taking over, municipalising, all this rent-controlled housing implies just those two things. First, the houses in the hands of the local authorities are freed from all these rent restrictions, and the tenant has no security of tenure. Secondly, the local authorities, as we know from their administrations of their own houses, raise the rents. So the whole of the objections and appeal to pity of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in his speech this afternoon wholly ignore the policy put forward by the Party of which he is so distinguished a member. If it is really so monstrously cruel to raise the rents, then the local authorities are being monstrously cruel, because that is their present practice.
I noticed a passage in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in which he

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said that people who had gone to some of these new estates—he was clearly referring to municipal estates—found the rents so much higher that they went short of food. For what was that a plea? If it was an objection to this Bill, it was a plea that the private landlord should subsidise those people who would otherwise suffer from the action of local authorities. The more the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, speaking for his Party this afternoon is examined, the more it will be realised that every objection he raised against the policy adopted in the measure to which we are asked to give a Second Reading is a condemnation of the policy which his own Party are putting forward.
For many years I was frankly puzzled to know what form of land tenure the Socialist Party believe in. Their policy seems to me to be curiously ambivalent, to use one of their own favourite words. There are times when, from their speeches, I gather that they are in favour of houses being available to rent. But there are other periods when they seem to disapprove altogether of the landlord, and certainly of the landlord getting an economic rent. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, is not here, but if I might remind him and my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor of matters that I think both will remember in the House of Commons, I will mention two rather interesting incidents that occurred in 1946 and 1947.
For a short period in the year 1946, the National Savings Movement produced a well-designed advertisement, which was prominently displayed and was calculated to be rather a success. The advertisement was entitled, "A Bit of Land of Your Own". It was considered by the experts who wished to collect National Savings that the prospect of saving in order to have "A bit of land of your own" was rather attractive. But this so shocked many members of the Socialist Party that the advertisement ran for less than a fortnight. A few months later, a Socialist Member supporting the then Government inquired of the Attorney General whether he would introduce legislation to end the system of leasehold tenure. The Attorney General said he was not prepared to abolish it, and added that it served a useful purpose for large numbers of people. I ventured, I remember, to put
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a supplementary question as follows [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 433, col. 1364]:
" As Socialists seem to object equally to leasehold tenure and to a man owning his own house, can the right honourable and learned gentleman say what land tenure they want?"
Whether he could inform us or not I do not know. What I do know is that he did not.
To state my own attitude, I am strongly in favour as. I think, are the whole Conservative Party, both of men being allowed to own their own homes and of men being able to let or rent houses. One system suits one, another system suits another; but the point is that all are injured by the evils and distortions brought about by the existing Acts. The State, the landlord and the man who would like to be, but cannot be, a tenant are all injured, and all suffer. How does the State suffer? The State suffers, in the first place, by the waste and destruction of a great national asset, the great amount of housing which is simply and inevitably, unless some measure on these lines is carried into law, rotting and decaying. In fact, until my right honourable friend the present Prime Minister greatly increased the building of houses, it was calculated that the number of houses falling into decay was as great as the number of houses that the Socialist Government were managing to build at the current rate of building. The State suffers then, in the first place, by the waste and destruction of a great national asset.
I wonder what anybody would say if any other great national asset were being treated in the same way. Suppose the railways, or any other great national asset, were allowed to rot or decay, we should all think it quite mad, and should demand that something should be done to stop that folly and scandal. If it is to be stopped, if sufficient money is to be provided to enable potentially good houses to be kept in repair, who is to provide it? I think that in many cases the Government are quite right in holding that the contribution can be made by the sitting tenant. There is no reason at all in many cases why that should not be done. But assume for the moment that there was a case for somebody else bearing the burden, then surely the thing to do would be to provide that such other

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person should bear the burden; but to say that the unfortunate landlord, who may have no assets at all with which to do it, should continue to subsidise his tenant by keeping the house in repair, notwithstanding the uneconomic rent, is quite clearly to ask for the impossible.
How else does this system cause the State to suffer? It causes the under-use of a great deal of property and the overcrowding of other property. From the inability imposed on those who would like to move elsewhere, the State also suffers because, if they could move to another place and find a house which they could rent, such a move would be profitable to them and to their country. The landlord suffers from seeing his property decay and from his inability to let at an economic rent. In fact, he often subsidises a sitting tenant who is richer than he is. I agree with what my noble friend Lord Gage said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, on the matter of Public Assistance. Let the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, examine what is happening with the tenants of the new towns and the municipal estates.
Last, but not least, of the people who suffer is the prospective tenant, the man who would like to be a tenant and does not wish to buy a house but, on account of the operation of these Rent Restrictions Acts, cannot find houses available for letting. This particularly applies to the young newly married couple. They are often not in the least in a position to buy, nor does anybody desire that they should buy, their house. They do not even know where for the greater part of their lives they are likely to live, but it would be enormously to their interest if more houses were available for letting. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggested that there was nothing in this Bill which would increase the number of houses available for occupation, but that is not quite accurate because, of course, the effect of the existing legislation is that a great many houses are standing empty because the landlords simply dare not let them for what would be a new controlled tenancy; and, likewise, the Acts are preventing a number of houses, sometimes large houses, from being reconstructed, particularly in cities where they might produce more homes for people who really needed them in order to work there.
There are a few further points to which I would allude, in conclusion, because I
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know how many others wish to speak. It has been suggested that there are not nearly enough houses in the country to make it safe for Her Majesty's Government to carry this measure into law at the present time. It is worth remembering what Mr. Aneurin Bevan has said on this very matter. It has been frequently quoted, but I think it deserves to be quoted again. This is what he said on November 30, 1953 [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 521, col. 826]:
"…taking the country as, whole, we are not very far away from the amount of total accommodation which the nation requires."
Since then, not less than 800,000 new houses have been built. Therefore, if Mr. Bevan was anything like right in November, 1953, still more is that true to-day.
If I may mention one other point about the Socialist alternative policy, I wonder how much it would cost. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, had something to say about inflation. He thought, rather curiously, that, if the owner of a house had suffered from inflation, he was only in the same position as many other people, and therefore nothing need be done about it. But, of course, he is not suffering merely from inflation; he is suffering from not being able to get an economic value for his property. That does not apply to other forms of property. If the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, had bought a picture or a piece of furniture, or anything else, as a result of inflation the value of that property would have gone up. If he wished to replace it by something similar, the fact of that appreciation could be realised; but by the Rent Restrictions Acts artificial depreciation of the property is inflicted on the man by legislation.
Let us examine for a moment the honesty of the Socialist proposal. Is it seriously proposed, in the only policy that has been mentioned as an alternative to the present measure, that all this property shall be acquired at a capital value based on the controlled rent and then at once let at an uncontrolled rent? I wonder if that is the policy. If there is another Socialist speaker who can speak with authority in this debate, I hope that that simple and fair question will be answered. If inflation is the fear, I wonder what is the estimate of the amount that this alternative policy would cost. One Front Bench speaker in another place, in a speech, I think, made

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outside the House, gave his own estimate as £2,500 million. I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, who speaks with such authority from the Benches opposite on questions of inflation, would regard the payment out of that sum as non-inflationary.
Finally, my Lords, I take comfort in one other thought. Great evils were prophesied by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, if Her Majesty's Government carry this measure into law. I should be more impressed by that if I had not heard similar dire prophecies before from the Benches opposite—I agree, mainly in another place—whenever a Conservative Government have proposed any measure of decontrol. I comforted myself this morning by looking at a valuable cutting. It was taken from the front page of the Daily Herald of November 27,1952, when my noble friend who was then the right honourable Gwilym Lloyd-George, Minister of Food, had announced the decontrol of eggs. The headline in the Daily Herald was:
" The shilling egg? "
It is true that a question mark was put after "the shilling egg," but in the article below it was pointed out that nobody but the rich would again be able to eat an egg. My Lords, it was found that that fear of Conservative freedom was exaggerated; so I think it will be found that the prophesies of disaster from carrying this measure into law are also exaggerated. I believe that Her Majesty's Government have taken a courageous and necessary step. I believe that there was no hope of ending the distortions and injury to our economy which these rent control Acts inflicted, unless drastic but well-thought-out measures were taken. I congratulate Her Majesty's Government on this measure and heartily support it.
5.13 p.m.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, if I were a member of these Benches who could speak with authority, I might perhaps accept the challenge of the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, and deal with the hypothetical picture that he has drawn of what the Socialists would do if they came into power. Perhaps, with some modesty, I cannot regard myself as speaking with authority, and we must therefore leave to some future occasion
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the answer to the noble Lord's question. I have listened with considerable interest to the speeches made this afternoon upon this Bill, and although I disagree with a good deal of what has been said, I feel, on the whole, that the diagnosis of the situation does not greatly differ on the two sides. We all realise that we are faced with a difficult situation, but what we disagree about is, I think, the means by which we would prescribe remedies for the particular case with which we are dealing. I have no hesitation at all in saying that the headlong plunge—as I think the noble Viscount described it—between the two points of view is real. I think that the noble Earl, Lord, Munster, was also correct when he emphasised the difference in outlook between the two Parties.
But we are not at the moment concerned with what the Socialists would do with this Bill if they were in power. Nor can I understand what is meant by the noble Earl. Lord Munster, when he says that one of the three possibilities is that of placing all these houses in the hands of the local authorities, upon whose tender mercies the tenants would have to rely. It seems to me that if ever there was a body which was definitely responsible to the people as a whole, it is surely their elected representatives sitting as local authorities, who are there for the precise purpose of attending to the wellbeing and welfare of the people of their towns. Therefore, the term used somewhat sarcastically by the noble Earl of "the tender mercies" is, in my opinion, a perfectly true one: they would be tender mercies concerning the people as a whole, and they would take into consideration the individual problems of the people who would require houses in their areas or towns.
But my own interest in this Bill is mainly, I confess, as it affects Scotland. Here we are in a special position. It seems to me that this Bill is a hybrid Bill: part of it deals with the position as it affects England and Wales and does not affect Scotland; part of it deals with the position as it affects Scotland but not England and Wales; and part of it affects the United Kingdom as a whole, in that both areas are concerned. I wonder whether it is the fact that the underlying assumptions upon which, in another place, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry based his case—namely, that

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there was now an approach to a balance between supply and demand in respect of houses—are true. Are they true for Scotland?
If noble Lords would pardon me, I should like to quote from the most recent White Paper, Cmd. No. 125, headed Industry and Employment in Scotland for Year 1956. It was published only this month. At page 43, under the heading "Housing," this is what one reads:
" The number of houses completed was 31,501 "—
I omit a sentence—
" Many local authorities outside the industrial belt "—
and I emphasise "outside the industrial belt"—
" have built most of the houses they need at present and slowed down their building. There was no serious shortage of labour or materials."
It is interesting to note that of these 31,501 only 4,724 were built by private builders—incidentally, that proportion, which is only 15 per cent. of the total of all the houses built, has always been much lower in Scotland than in England, for reasons which we do not need to enter into to-day. It is almost a characteristic of the relationship between private house building and authority house building in Scotland, and indicates the greater proportion which, as time goes on, local authorities will own as distinct from private owners. In other words, the problem is not quite the same in Scotland as it is in England.
Then the White Paper goes on to say:
" In February of 1956 a White Paper Slum Clearance, Cmd. 9685, was published, summarising, local authorities' proposals for dealing with unfit houses under the Housing (Repairs and Rents) (Scotland) Act, 1954. The proposals submitted by the end of the year showed that in the three years 1956 to 1958, Scottish local authorities proposed to demolish or close 39,632 unfit houses."
My Lords, when you compare the number of new houses being built with the number of old houses being demolished, it must be realised that it will take a long time to arrive even at a balance between the supply of and demand for houses in Scotland.
There is a further point. Those of your Lordships who have read the Second Reading speech of the then Secretary of State on this Bill, on November 22 last, must have been impressed, as I was, by
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the hesitant, tentative manner in which he put forward the portion of the Bill which refers to Scotland, and I should like to quote one or two parts of that speech. I should first explain that there is no close comparison between the position in England and Wales, on the one hand, and the position in Scotland, on the other, because in Scotland this rent increase is being applied to figures which result from the Housing (Repairs and Rents) (Scotland) Act, 1954, and is not, as in England, based on a conception of gross values.
Since, by general admission, what has happened under that 1954 Act has been a complete failure, and presumably requires some kind of new incentive injected in order to make it work better, the then Secretary of State openly admitted that, so far as Scotland was concerned, this was a temporary measure which would later have to be developed along other lines when the new Rating and Valuation Act, 1956, becomes operative, which will be in 1961. That was the general tenor of his remarks. He explained that this particular part relating to Scotland was being included in this Rent Bill because it had been done in the past, and because, in any case, it was in his view the appropriate thing to do in the present circumstances.
I want to suggest to the noble Lord opposite who will be dealing with the Scottish aspect of this Bill (I think I am right in saying, it has been suggested by a member of the noble Lord's Party in another place) that it is doubtful whether it is really necessary, so far as Scotland is concerned, to proceed with this part of the Bill. What harm would accrue to anyone if the whole of this matter were delayed until 1961, when the Rating and Valuation Act, 1956, will come into operation and when there will be throughout Great Britain sufficient uniformity of conditions to enable the same kind of treatment—if such treatment is necessary? So far as I can see, no one would be the worse off if that were done, and it would certainly make for some partial satisfaction to those who object. For, in case your Lordships do not know, there has been very vocal objection in Scotland to this measure. The noble Lord will be well aware that last week at Ayr, at, I believe, a Conservative Party conference, there was art outcry from

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some members attending that this particular Act was going to cost a good many votes and was (I believe someone said) a piece of justice for landlords. That may be very true, except that also last week there was a conference of trade union organisations which unanimously objected to this Bill, on the grounds that it would inflict great hardship upon a great many people. I think the noble Lord will also know that there has been some very informative correspondence in the Glasgow Herald showing that people were genuinely concerned about the effect of the Bill on their own particular finances, even though they were not yet certain what would he the effect of the Rating and Valuation Act. For those reasons I would ask the noble Lord to give serious consideration to the suggestion that this part of the Bill be not proceeded with at this stage.
Another thought occurs to me, one which has been mildly touched on by noble Lords opposite, though in a somewhat different sense. No doubt the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that, precisely because the amount of legislation on these matters is becoming so complicated, there is in the operation of these complicated legal provisions an element of harshness which deals differently with landlords as compared with tenants. Unlike the landlords, the tenants have not behind them the benefit of membership of an organisation which seeks to promote their general welfare. On the contrary, these individuals are usually not well-informed, nor well off, and too ignorant of the details of legislation to know what measures to take. And even if they did take measures, it would prove a very expensive course. So there is a disparity of justice between the two sides which ought in some way to be remedied by the adoption of a simpler kind of procedure.
When I have asked myself what kind of procedure might be most desirable in circumstances of that kind, I have wondered—and perhaps noble Lords could answer me—whether some kind of rent tribunal could be devised, composed of men and women untrained in law but with some experience of housing problems, who without much formality, and at little or no expense, could examine
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the facts brought to them by people anxious to know their position. Would it not be possible to satisfy those people much more satisfactorily than under the present complicated legal procedure and assist them in the problems with which, as a result of increased rent, they will be faced? It seems to me that the hope implied in this Bill, that landlord and tenant will be able to come together and hammer out between them a mutually acceptable rent, is almost an impossibility. Things do not work in that way. In practice—and this is not presuming or contending that all landlords are hardhearted—and in the very nature of trying to bargain on what would be a fair rent for a particular piece of property, it is almost inevitable that a landlord can impose his demand on the tenant; nowadays, particularly, a tenant has very little remedy with which to resist that demand.
Since this is the Second Reading, and as one prefers to deal at this stage with the general aspect of the problem, the more detailed matters can be dealt with on the Committee stage when, probably, noble Lords on this side of the House will try to improve some parts of the present Bill which we feel badly need improvement.
5.29 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will forgive a few more words from Scotland. I am afraid, however, that I cannot agree with the pessimism of the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, on this measure, which I regard not only as extremely practical but as very positive, in that, as I am quite certain, it will lead to an improvement in the housing situation in Scotland, as well as in England and Wales. It is, of course, perfectly true, as the noble Lord has pointed out, that the housing situation and problem in Scotland is different from, and in some senses more difficult than, that in England and Wales. It is also quite true that the full provisions of the Bill do not come into effect for another four years—in 1961. But although the rent increases for controlled houses permitted under the Bill for the intervening period are not great (they are only 25 per cent., which is considerably less than increases which there have been in England and Wales), I feel that they will go some way to making a start in

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improving the situation. I will not pretend that I think they will go the whole way, because I am afraid that 25 per cent. is not going to make all that much difference. But I feel that if the provisions of this Bill come into force in 1961, and if we can have an assurance from Her Majesty's Government that after that date the two countries will be operating on a uniform basis, then I myself think that the well-known Scottish patience will accept the situation.
I do not intend this afternoon, in view of the fact that there are many other noble Lords wishing to speak, to go into the detailed provisions of the Bill. There is one small point which I should like to raise. According to my knowledge at the moment, all notices of increases in rent: have to be signed by the landlords personally. This entails a waste of money and, what is more important, it takes up a great deal of time, especially when, as is often the case, the landlords—it may be, for instance, several trustees of a property—are living in different parts of this country and often abroad. I was wondering whether some provision could be inserted enabling landlords to hand over this business of signing increase notices to authorised agents, subject, of course, to normal safeguards. I believe this is the practice at the moment under the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act. I am quite certain if it was done it would greatly ease the administration of the Bill, which I certainly hope will soon become law.
5.32 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD STRATHCLYDE): My Lords, perhaps it would he for the convenience of your Lordships if I intervened at this stage, I am sure your Lordships all appreciated, as I did, the able way in which the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, argued his case and the points he put before us. I also thank the noble Marquess for his support. The noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, after a considerable amount of argument, put a direct question to me. He asked whether it was necessary to proceed with this part of the Bill—and I presume he meant the part, which affects Scotland, Clauses 7, 8 and 9. No one would be worse off if this part, he said, were dropped. I put it to him that the one thing we want to do is to preserve our houses, and the
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houses would certainly be worse off. The noble Lord himself drew attention to that fact when he quoted the number of houses due for demolition during the last year. We have to try to protect this heritage to which we have fallen heir.
I will not deal with the point about the small number of houses built by private enterprise in Scotland. We hope that the obstacle to private building in Scotland has now been removed. We hope that in future the number of houses built there will be more in proportion to those built in England than previously. Might I answer the specific question put to me by the noble Marquess? He asked me whether it would, not be possible for notices of increase to be signed by someone other than the landlords. I am advised that, having regard to the terms of the Housing (Repairs and Rents) (Scotland) Act, 1954, and of this Bill, there is nothing to preclude the owner from serving notice of increase through an agent or factor. I think there is some misunderstanding on that point. That is what I understand to be the position.
My noble friend has explained the Government's reasons for taking this first step towards the abolition of rent control. Those reasons hold good for Scotland, and the decontrol provisions of the Bill apply to Scotland just as to England and Wales. I do not intend, and I am sure your Lordships would not wish me, to repeat what my noble friend said on the subject. I will try to confine myself to a brief explanation of the provisions. The position is that in Scotland all houses of rateable values of between £40 and £90 will be decontrolled. The figure of £40 represents, in the Government's view, a fair limit of control for Scotland, taking into account that matter which worried the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, the Scottish housing position generally. It also follows the precedent of pre-war years when Scotland and London kept in step one with the other. I cannot give any accurate figure because none is available, but the estimate is that some 60,000 houses will be decontrolled; that is about 8½ per cent. of the total number of controlled houses in Scotland. The other decontrol provisions of the Bill—the decontrol of new tenancies and the provision for decontrol by ministerial order—apply also to Scotland. So likewise do the various provisions designed to ease

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the transition from control to decontrol and to minimise the possibility of hardship to tenants.
My noble friend explained that the Bill provides for England and Wales a new rent structure based on the new valuations now available in those countries. In Scotland, the existing rent structure of the Rent Acts and of the Housing (Repairs and Rents) (Scotland) Act, 1954, is subject to changes. The Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1956, as your Lordships will recall, makes major changes in the Scottish rating and valuation systems. In particular it abolishes owners' rates and alters the whole system of valuation. Until 1961, when the new valuations will be available, there is no basis on which a new rent structure for Scotland can be devised. The Scottish rent provisions are therefore of an interim nature, as my right honourable friend, the then Secretary of State, stated during the Second Reading of the Bill in the House of Commons. There are two main provisions, and their essential object, as the noble Lord anticipated, is to make the Housing (Repairs and Rents)(Scotland) Act, 1954, work better than it has done hitherto.
First, the Act of 1954 made provision for a repairs increase of 40 per cent. of the rent recoverable in 1954. The amount of that increase was based on the increase in the cost of repairs that had occurred since 1939. Since the 1954 Act was passed there have been increases in the cost of repairs, and the Bill, therefore, raises the amount in the 1954 Act from 40 per cent. to 50 per cent.; that is, 40 per cent. or 50 per cent. of the 1954 rents. The new increase of 50 per cent. will be subject to exactly the same conditions as laid down for the 40 per cent. in the 1954 Act that is to say, the house must be in good and tenantable repair and not otherwise unfit for human habitation, and the landlord must show that in the twelve months preceding the notice of increase he has spent on repairs not less than 60 per cent. of the 1954 rent. That is commonly referred to as the expenditure test.
Secondly, the Bill introduces a new increase, which I will call the 1957 Act increase. That increase amounts to 25 per cent. of the 1954 rent. It is an alternative to the repairs increase of 50 per cent. under the 1954 Act. This new
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increase is subject to the house being fit for human habitation and in good and tenantable repair, but it is not subject to the expenditure test. The Government hope that this increase will encourage landlords to keep their houses in good repair and will help those landlords who have either not been able or not needed to spend in any one year the amount which would entitle them to the repairs increase under the 1954 Act. These two rent changes in Scotland are not intended to be other than interim measures awaiting the completion of the comprehensive review of the Scottish rent structure in 1961. Their primary object is to help and encourage landlords to maintain their houses and to prevent further decay of the existing stock of houses in Scotland.
The Bill also makes an adjustment in the disrepair provisions in relation to the rent increase permitted under the 1920 Act. Hitherto, the issue of a certificate of disrepair by the local authority has meant that the landlord lost not only the 1954 repairs increase but also the 40 per cent. increase under the 1920 Act, with the result that his rent went back to what it was in 1914. Now the Government's main object is to see that funds are available at least to maintain existing properties, and they are of the opinion that not only would it be quite unreasonable that rents should be liable to fall back to the level at which they were before the First World War, but that to allow them to do so would completely defeat the object which they have in view.
I said that the rent provisions are of a temporary nature. I really think noble Lords should know what is meant in monetary terms. The maximum increase payable weekly on the highest rented houses remaining in control will be 7s. 8d. a week in the case of the repairs increase (that is, the 50 per cent. increase) and 3s. 10d. a week in the case of the 25 per cent. increase. And these are the maximum amounts.
LORD GREENHILL: Is the noble Lord implying that this money will necessarily be spent on repairing houses?
LORD STRATHCLYDE: No one can be certain. It is certainly the hope that that should be so. And I think that when the Government's intention has been made plain, when it is clear that they intend, step by step, to get rid of rent

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control altogether, it may well be that this will be an inducement to owners not only to keep their property in repair but even to invest further moneys in their properties with a view to keeping them in a proper condition.
That is so far as the highest rented houses are concerned. For the large majority of houses remaining in control, the amount of the increase will be about 4s. a week in the case of the 50 per cent. increase and 2s. in the case of the 25 per cent. increase. Limited though those provisions are—and I would remind noble Lords that we are attacked in the opposite direction to which they attack us on this measure—we believe they will, nevertheless, represent a useful and, indeed, an absolutely necessary measure to enable our stock of houses to be kept in reasonable repair. I therefore hope that your Lordships will give this Bill a Second Reading.
5.45 p.m.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, I propose to confine my remarks this afternoon to the South of the Tweed, because I should find it extremely difficult to follow the calculations and figures that have been so ably put before us by the last speaker. South of the Tweed, I believe, these proposals will act fairly, and I think that they ought to be commended to your Lordships' House. I am sorry that on this occasion my noble friend Lord Buck-master is not in his seat, because for many years he took a leading part in your Lordships' House in drawing the attention of the former Government, and the two Labour Governments before that, to the very serious position and distortion that arose from the operation of the Rent Acts. The figures which he laid before your Lordships' House on those occasions have been amply justified by what has happened in the last ten years.
This afternoon we are dealing with about 5¾ million unfurnished houses to let. Under the Government's proposals, about three-quarters of them will become decontrolled (these are figures that were taken, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and also by my noble friend Lord Conesford) and the rents on the remainder will go up to the permitted limit of twice the gross rateable value. In that connection, I believe that it is valuable to examine what the effect of the increase
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to twice the gross rateable value will be. We have talked about it at some length this afternoon, but the figures themselves have not been mentioned.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, expressed grave doubts and anxiety about the effect of basing these increases on the gross rateable value. The facts are these. The weekly increase for one million of these houses (that is the approximate number; the actual number is 963,000) will be up to 5s. a week. I do not believe that, with present wages and present prices, an increase of rent of 5s. a week is going to cause the hardship, the distress and the ill-health to which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, referred. Then there will be another 954,000 houses the-rents of which will be increased by from 5s. to 7s. 6d. a week. On top of these there are just over one million houses the rents of which may be increased by 7s. 6d. to 10s. a week, and a further three-quarters of a million houses the rents of which may go up by the permitted increase of from 10s. to 15s. a week. And that is only after the safeguard of the disrepair clause has been fulfilled. At any time, if these houses are not in a state of good repair, a disrepair certificate can be applied for and if it is granted, then the rent will drop again to what it had been before, and any excess rent will have to be repaid.
In view of these provisions, I do not believe that the allegations made about the degree of anxiety on the part of the sitting tenant, and the disadvantage to him, can possibly be upheld. When one remembers the enormous sums that every week are spent on pools, betting and drink, surely one must agree that a reasonable level of rent should stand above these non-essential features of modern life. And I believe it is against that background that these increases of rent should be properly measured. I believe that these proposals will commend themselves to the country at large, in preference to the grandiose and universal scheme proposed by the Labour Party, to convert every rent-restricted house into a council house, with all the red tape and officialdom which that would create. It is further to be remembered that the Opposition proposals include not only rent-controlled houses, but whole blocks of buildings, including the shops and commercial premises that may be on the ground floors.

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My noble friend Lord Conesford mentioned that if these rent-controlled premises were turned into council houses, without the shadow of a doubt the housing authorities would have to increase the rents. Speeches made by members of the Opposition in another place all agree that if these houses were made into council houses, the rents would have to be increased automatically. And if they were not increased, who would pay the bill? Obviously, the only alternative is another enormous Exchequer subsidy, and then again we should have the ridiculous position we are in to-day, of poor people paying through their rates or taxes subsidies on the houses of those much better off than they are themselves.
I believe that this is now generally recognised throughout the country, whatever scheme comes to fruition, and I believe that it would be a tremendous advantage to the country and to the stock of houses if, as my noble friend Lord Gage said, there could be some attempt at getting what he called a bipartisan approach to our housing problems. Because my noble friend is right when he says that the shadow of the Socialist scheme is now doing great harm, and will continue to do great harm, in diminishing the amount of money spent on improvements and repairs to existing privately owned rent-restricted houses. That is an aspect which I believe your Lordships will deplore, because over the last thirty years—particularly over the last ten years, during which the price of repairs has increased by over 300 per cent.—the effect of the Rent Restrictions Acts has been, and inevitably must be, a great decrease in the amount of money spent on repairs and improvements. Although the Housing Repairs and Rents Act, 1954, has done something to improve the position by making available grants for improvements, it is well known to your Lordships that there are many councils, and councils which have a Socialist majority, who refuse to implement the Act, so that the intention of Parliament is thwarted. I know from my own experience that councils with a majority of members of the Labour Party are most unwilling, and in many cases refuse, to make any grants under that Act. The result is that houses are not improved.
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I believe that the proposals in the Bill will begin to provide a sufficient increase of rent to enable many of the old houses, particularly in our picturesque and beautiful stone-built villages, to be properly repaired and improved. Without these increases, these villages are becoming derelict, and they are a national asset which the country cannot do without, forming objects of great beauty which attract people from all over the world. It is just this type of property that has suffered greatly during the last ten years. There is an extraordinary anomaly about the position of these old houses. Under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, the noble Lord, Lord Silkin (I am sorry that he is not in his place), invented a great machinery to schedule all houses of national and architectural merit, and under that Act much work has been done. Much of it, however, is fruitless, for the simple economic fact that there has not been sufficient money coming in from the rents of restricted houses to do the necessary repairs to maintain these houses. Therefore, we have the anomaly that one Minister with one hand makes lists to preserve ancient and beautiful houses, and with the other refuses sufficient rent to enable the structures to be repaired. From the simple, common-sense point of view we must put an end to the present position.
There is one aspect of the Bill, mentioned by my noble friend Lord Ridley, which I think will appeal to your Lordships—that is, the multitude of safeguards that it contains. Some of these safeguards are of quite a new description and are greatly to the advantage of the sitting tenants. They are very much to be welcomed. The fifteen months' standstill on uncontrolled houses, unless a three years' lease is agreed during that period, is one safeguard which was inserted in the Bill in another place, after a great deal of argument. A second safeguard is in the prohibition of premiums. There is another to safeguard tenants for the expenditure of money expended by themselves on improvements. There is the old safeguard, in rather another form, protecting the widows and other members of the family of a statutory tenant. These I believe to be real safeguards. Finally, we come to this certificate of disrepair. Although the procedure is

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complicated and involved, and may take a long time to put into operation, at least it provides a tenant with a safeguard that he has never had before, and I believe that it will be useful and valuable. I commend this Bill to your Lordships for a Second Reading.
6.0 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, at this stage of our debate I do not propose to detain your Lordships for long. Nor do I think it necessary from this side of the House to be led off at a tangent to discuss the Labour Party's policy for housing. There is a time and a place which would be opportune for that. I am rather surprised that certain noble Lords on the opposite side of the House have been somewhat led astray and have lost touch with the Government's Rent Bill by deciding to attack noble Lords sitting on these Benches.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, as one of those about whom the noble Lord complains, perhaps I may interrupt him for a moment. My remarks about this particular policy, which has been printed and circulated throughout England, were made because, in my judgment, it will have an immediate ill-effect on the administration of the Rent Bill produced by this Government, and on the success of certain parts of it. It seemed to me right, therefore, that it should be drawn in. It was not intended as an attack, but to abstract some information, which I hope we may get at some time during this debate.
LORD WISE: I am pleased to accept what the noble Viscount has said, and I hope there will be another occasion when from this side of the House we can explain our policy in regard to housing. It behoves your Lordships' House to give serious consideration to the terms of this Rent Bill. It is a Bill which, if we are not careful in our deliberations and discussions in Committee, may go forward as an Act of Parliament safeguarding more particularly the interests of the landlord. The noble Lord who has just sat down mentioned one or two points in the Bill with regard to tenants' rights and reliefs; but, in my view, the Bill is almost entirely a landlords' Bill, and for that reason I think it is necessary for your Lordships to consider both points of view.
I should guess that there is no Member of your Lordships' House who will be
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affected by the Bill as a controlled tenant, It may be that many of us can be assumed to have a vested interest in the Bill as owners of property. If the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament, it will, sooner or later, affect 5 million householders; that is, if the Bill goes on to its logical conclusion of decontrol of all the houses controlled at the present time. As I say, it will affect 5 million householders, and it can be estimated that, with their families, some 25 per cent. of our people will in the long run come under the terms of this Bill. The significance of this must he apparent; and the significance of the fact that we are by this Bill taking steps, so far as rent control is concerned, completely to alter the order of things that has been in existence for forty years, gives vital point to what I said a moment ago with regard to our deliberations on the Bill. There is no doubt that, as the Bill proceeds, certain alterations may be made on the Committee stage. I was pleased to notice certain Amendments made by the Government on the Report stage in another place.
With regard to the Bill, there are one or two points I want to make. The first has reference to Clause 1 and the question of gross value. Once or twice this afternoon noble Lords have slipped into the error of referring to "rateable value ", or what was termed in the last speech, "gross rateable value". The term "gross value" is provided in the Bill. I should prefer that, instead of the calculations being made on gross value, they should be made upon rateable value. Rateable value is a value which is easily understood by everyone; it is commonly referred to; it is used not only for rating purposes but also for Schedule A income tax purposes as net annual value, and is used in ordinary, everyday, business and civil life.
LORD HYLTON: Would the noble Lord agree that you cannot have a net rateable value unless you have a gross rateable value?
LORD WISE: That is not the point. The gross value is already in existence, in the same way as rateable value. My point is that, instead of making our calculations on twice gross value, we should make our calculations on twice rateable value. The use of rateable value, which is a lower value (it is a percentage lower than gross value in the tables which have

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been published; the difference between gross value and rateable value is usually about 25 per cent.) would have this effect: it would decrease by 25 per cent. the additional rent which tenants will be called upon to pay under this clause. It would make things much easier from the point of view of tenants; and I have no doubt that, for that reason, the Bill might be much more acceptable to controlled and uncontrolled householders as a whole. It would also have the effect of allowing income tax to be paid on the same value. This is important. Since we may now be taking as the maximum rent figure twice the gross value, and the owner is called upon at the moment to pay income tax under Schedule A on a net annual value figure, it may be that the Treasury will lose a considerable amount of money in taxation immediately on the difference in the two values.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: May I interrupt the noble Lord? I think he is probably getting a little muddled here. The revaluation of houses last year, which put houses on the 1939 valuation, is the rateable valuation. It does not correspond in any way with the Schedule A valuation. That has not yet been altered.
LORD WISE: As a matter of fact, that was my point—that double the gross value will be a much higher figure than the present net annual value; and until the houses are revalued for income tax purposes the owners of property will be paying Schedule A Tax on the net annual value, while receiving a rent of twice the gross value.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: That is not correct.
LORD WISE: There is another point which may be interesting from the taxation point of view, and that is this. I am advised that, under this Bill, the total increase of rent per annum will be in the nature of £100 million to £110 million, of which a sum of £18 million will fall to be paid over to tenants by the National Assistance Board. The curtailment of the increase by taking rateable value instead of gross value would reduce that amount of £110 million by £28 million, and it would also have the effect of reducing the Exchequer's liability, through the National Assistance Board, by £4½ million, which is a sum well worth saving
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in these times. I mentioned the question of income tax a moment ago but, of course, it must be borne in mind that many small owners are not subject to Schedule A tax, and if they are then it can be reclaimed.
There is just one point about Clause 10 (3). It is obvious, I think, that once decontrol has started, it will be continued in the next few years. In regard to the present arrangement of decontrolling certain houses under the Bill, I should have preferred that decontrol of those houses, or blocks of houses, should have been carried on over a short period of years rather than at one blow. I hope, therefore, that under Clause 10 (3) (the Minister has said in another place that he does not propose to decontrol any further houses within a year), the future decontrol of the remaining 4 million houses, or whatever the number is, will take place not as one operation but over a number of years. I know that this particular subsection refers to the fact that it may be carried out by areas, but what I am advocating is that it should not be done entirely in one particular year.
There are one or two other points which have arisen in the course of the speeches with which I should have liked to deal—for instance, the changing of tenancies and unoccupied houses. I cannot agree with those noble Lords who have suggested that this particular Bill will create a further supply of houses for people to live in. It seems to me that in no respect can the operation of this Bill provide another house. It may be that people will change houses, but those who come out of one will go into another, and so on and so forth. There may be a "general post" of tenants, but there will not be a greater number of houses for not only the newly married people, who have been referred to this afternoon, but others to occupy. I hope that we shall be able to make certain Amendments on the Committee stage of this Bill, and that when the Bill leaves your Lordships' House we shall find that it is just and fair as between the owner and the tenant.
6.17 p.m.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, in rising to support this most important Bill tonight—because it is a Bill of first magnitude, in that it affects many people—I am sure you will excuse me if I take

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a few minutes of your Lordships' time. I should like to answer, to the best of my ability, a few of the questions which have been put from the other side of the House. The first point the noble Lord, Lord Wise, raised referred to rateable value. I think I am right in saying that it has always been considered that the gross rateable value bears some relation to an economic rent of the house. These houses are assessed at the 1939 value, so that twice the gross value now is not an economic rent today. Until we get a new valuation, within the next five years, they will not come up to the present level. However, it is getting nearer to an economic rent. Probably two and a half times gross would be nearer, so I think that the noble Lord's suggestion of putting it down to a rateable value would be very unfair to the landlords.
The noble Lord also said that he thought this Bill (I am not myself a landlord, so I can speak quite freely) was mostly a landlords' Bill. But it is mostly a Bill to try to prevent further deterioration of these houses, and to make it more comfortable for the tenants, because they are the people who will get the benefit. We cannot allow this large stock of houses to fall further into disrepair. While I and my noble friends gave support to the Housing Repairs and Rents Act. 1954, some of us were rather critical, and said that it did not go far enough. We were not too popular at the time with our own Front Bench. I think we were proved correct, and that it did not go far enough. As my noble friend Lord Hylton said, it had some good effect, but it did not get many houses repaired. This Bill is a brave measure. It is not a popular one, because putting up people's rents is never popular; but it is necessary to get these houses into proper repair and to give an economic, or near-economic, return to landlords who have had to wait a long time for any increase at all.
The noble Lord, Lord Wise, also said that it would not create any further pool of houses. I am credibly informed that there is at present a large amount of under-occupation of large houses, and that passing this Bill would have the effect, particularly in the outer ring of London, in the Dulwich area, and round there, where there are a large number of biggish Victorian houses which are now
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under-occupied, of encouraging people to split up those houses—as my noble friends Lord Ridley, Lord Conesford and Lord Gage have said this afternoon—and make them into two or three flats, so that they are occupied to full economic capacity.
LORD SILKIN: Is the noble Lord not aware that the houses he is talking about—and I know them very well for I have lived in one for years—are all decontrolled already? They are above the rateable value. They have not been converted.
LORD WOLVERTON: But there are many, I think, still within the £100 and not out of control. This Bill will have that effect. It will also have the effect that people living in these uncontrolled houses may think it worth their while to spend a little money to make one house into two and find another tenant. I am worried about London. As the noble Viscount, Lord Gage, said this afternoon, it is a very great problem on its own. Throughout the country, with the exception of Birmingham, the Bill should work very well.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said that most people have based their standards of living on the present controlled rents of houses—I hope I have not misquoted him; I took down those words. No doubt they have based their standard of living on the present controlled rents of houses, but I do not see why they should have done so, because many of those rents have not been raised since 1935. I have taken the trouble—and I think it is as well to bring out these points to your Lordships—to ascertain what is happening in a typical rural area where I live, at Newmarket. Newmarket Rural District Council has a very good record of building houses. It is only a rural district council responsible for about 20,000 inhabitants, but between the two wars it built about 700 houses. Since the last war, the council has built about 1,200 houses, so one cannot say that it has not been progressive. Let us look at the typical two-bedroomed house, uncontrolled, built by the local authority in 1938. The rent of that house in 1939 was 4s. 6d. By 1946 the figure had gone up to 6s. 6d. and to-day it stands at 11 s. 9d. That is without rates. The rates have gone up from Is. 10d. to 2s. 4d. and then to 4s. 6d. So that to-day the

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figure for rent plus rates is about 16s. The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, in his interesting speech, if I correctly understood him, said that under this Bill the rents of about 1 million houses would go up by 5s.; of another million by 7s. 6d.; of another million by 10s. 0d.; and of a further three-quarters of a million by 15s. They are only keeping in step with a rural council in Cambridgeshire. As uncontrolled council houses, these houses of which I speak are very well run. I have not seen any under-nutrition there. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said that increasing rents would probably drive more people to need medical help, and so on. I cannot quite "swallow" that one.
This is a fair Bill. It has many protective provisions, which have been ably explained to us this afternoon by the noble Earl, Lord Munster. It is not going to bring any undue hardship. Certainly, the rents are going up to be more economic rents. We shall get those houses kept in proper repair. We cannot afford to allow this large stock of houses to go any further into disrepair—and they are going further into disrepair because, unfortunately, as has been said before, the 1954 Act did not go far enough. That is why I support this Bill and hope it will go through, as I am certain it will. There may be some further modifications to be made to it, but reading the Schedule on repairs, which is important, I think that the tenant is very well protected, because, as the noble Lord knows, the machinery is that no rents can go up for three months. Then, if I understand the Bill properly, the landlord can put the rent up, so that he has a little money in hand to do any repairs, if necessary. If at the end of six weeks the tenant does not think the house has been put in proper repair, he can notify his landlord on a statutory form. If they cannot agree within those six weeks, there is another three weeks in which time a sanitary inspector can be called in and he has three weeks in which to make up his mind whether to issue a certificate of disrepair. There is a period of six months, if he wishes, when the landlord is supposed to do these repairs. If he does not do them, the rent goes back to the tenant. So there are adequate safeguards.
I also like the other provision which is entirely a new provision in British Law;
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that everybody is entitled to a month's notice. One cannot be turned out at a week's notice. That is a very important new provision. With these few words, I have tried to show that the rent of a typical council house has gone up just as much as, or even more than, the rent of these houses will go up. I cannot see that there is any great hardship on people living in those houses. Why should there be any hardship on people living in these 5 million-odd controlled houses?
6.25 p.m.
LORD MESTON: My Lords, the Government should be congratulated on this Bill, which is a subject pregnant with political dynamite. We should take off our hats to the noble Lords who represent the Government. I want to be quite frank about the housing situation. I do not approach this matter, or indeed any other matter, simply and solely from the point of view of Party politics. There is not a reasonable degree of equality between demand and supply. In other words, at the present time the demand for houses is greater than the supply. The Bill appreciates that fact and has introduced a standstill period of fifteen months which will considerably ease the situation. And, in addition, the decontrol of some 4½ million houses which are at present owner-occupied will increase the availability of housing accommodation. I do not wish to exaggerate in this matter, but I feel that the position ought to be considerably improved at the end of two years; but it would be erroneous if I were to suggest that at the end of two years the position will be entirely satisfactory.
So far as repairs are concerned, the Bill has approached the matter in a most realistic fashion. As your Lordships know, in the past the landlord had to comply with a rigid formula as to expenditure on repairs before he could increase the rent. As many landlords had no money or insufficient money to pay for repairs, the result in many cases was that the repairs were never done and rents were never increased. But the present Bill deals with the matter in a far more sensible way. The landlord may increase the rent up to a certain figure, which varies according to his liability for repairs. The tenant may at any time—I want to emphasise those words, "at

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any time"—apply for a certificate of disrepair, and this will be the means of compelling landlords to keep their premises in a fit and proper state.
There is one general comment I should like to make on the subject of repairs. Parliament always seems to deal with repairs in connection with some mathematical calculation related to increase of rent. For example, it may be suggested that if a landlord receives another 7s. 6d. a week by way of increase of rent, that will enable him to keep the property in repair. The whole approach to the matter is far too academic. After this Bill becomes law there will still be millions of houses in the country which will be subject to rent control. In many cases an average expenditure of £150 is required forthwith to put the properties into a really sound condition. It may take years to accumulate £150 by saving up money, week by week, out of an increase of rent. I understand that local authorities have powers under the Housing Acts to make loans for these purposes, and it would be interesting to hear from the Government whether those powers are being used and whether they might he usefully extended.
Instead of wandering all over the Bill, I will mention some specific points. Clause 15 provides that the minimum length of a notice to quit must be four weeks. In this connection, if I am not out of order for doing so. I wish to make a personal appeal to the Lord Chancellor, who has tremendous influence in this and, indeed, in every other matter. I would ask him to introduce a new clause or to amend the existing clause so as to confer a power upon the court to amend an erroneous notice to quit. Your Lordships know that if there is any informality or irregularity in a notice to quit, the judge must dismiss the action, and the notice to quit must be, re-drafted and re-served on the tenant; and, as we all know from our experience, two or three months' delay will occur before the case comes into court again.
I appreciate the fact that in the interests of the tenant the notice to quit must he as accurate as possible, because, naturally, he wants to know on what day he must give up possession of the premises. But suppose, for example, the notice to quit ends on a Saturday, whereas in point of fact it should have
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ended on the following Monday, or it ends on a Monday when it should have ended on the preceding Saturday. It seems to me that, provided always that four weeks' notice has been given, it is an appalling waste of time that a judge should have to dismiss the action and the parties have to start again. Therefore, I suggest to the Government that they should amend Clause 15, or insert another clause to the effect that a judge shall have power in all cases to amend an erroneous notice to quit, subject to such terms as he thinks fit and subject to the justice of the case.
Now let me deal with the definition of "rent" in Clause 22 (3). I know I have a poor mentality, but I have sat up all night with a wet towel round my head trying to understand the meaning of that definition; it is quite beyond me. I should be very glad indeed if the Government could give me a written statement as to what it means. Then let me turn to Clause 4 (1). This is a question of construction. I am not quite clear whether the services in Clause 4 (1) are contractual services alone, or whether they also include non-contractual services. This is a matter of some importance when one has to deal with it in practice. The point about residence protection of persons who are called up for the Services is not clearly stated in the Bill. I believe that if one can decipher paragraph 2 (4) of the Fourth Schedule, one may possibly find that the Bill does not fully apply to persons who are called up for the Forces and are enjoying residence protection. But here, again, my inferior mentality is absolutely unable to understand the draftsmanship of this great work.
So far as premiums are concerned, I am glad to see a prohibition against them. At the same time, there may be loopholes. I am open to correction, but I understand that the prohibition against premium refers to the payment of money, but not to goods in kind. There is a reported case in which a suite of furniture was the consideration for the grant of a new tenancy, and it was held that this did not constitute a premium. I happen to be the landlord of certain controlled property in Aberdeen. I have not made a fortune out of it, and I never expect to—so long as I am not ruined, that is the most. I can hope for in any circumstances. But if at any time your Lordships see me

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walking about in Scotland with a suite of furniture under my arm and suggest to me that I have been contravening the provisions against premium, you must not be surprised if you get an unparliamentary answer.
My Lords, there are many other observations still to be made upon this excellent Bill. I congratulate the Government upon their great courage in having dealt with this subject at all, and I only hope that in due course the phraseology of the Bill will be explained by experts.
6.35 p.m.
LORD BROUGHSHANE: My Lords, I should wish, even at this late hour, to add my voice to those who have welcomed this Bill and congratulated the Government on bringing forward a measure which, though inevitably unpopular, is clearly in the public interest. Since this Bill was first printed some four or five months ago, hundreds of thousands of words have been printed, written and spoken about it. There has been much discussion and the air has been full of sound and fury: but the sound has been one of protest more than of argument—protest, quite understandably, if not justifiably, made by those who, for the past many years, have enjoyed the benefit of artificially cheap, subsidised rents and who will now face the prospect of paying rents at something nearer the economic level.
I support this Bill principally for what it will do for the two main matters which we have discussed this afternoon—namely, under-accommodation and stopping the older houses from falling into disrepair. As regards under-accommodation, I should like to draw attention to some statistics compiled about a year ago by the Economic Commission for Europe concerning the availability of housing in the various European countries. These figures show that, with the exception of Switzerland and Belgium, the United Kingdom has considerably more housing accommodation than any other European country—indeed, the United Kingdom is about 20 per cent. better off than France, Holland or Sweden, and a great deal better off than all the other countries. The figures show that there are in the United Kingdom thirteen rooms for every ten persons. If these figures are considered in conjunction with the housing
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census of 1951, which I think indicated that there were 1¼ million households with more than three rooms per person, I would suggest that that shows clearly that we are suffering here as much from a maldistribution of housing accommodation as from any real shortage.
As regards disrepair, the Government White Paper of 1953, estimated that at that time 100,000 old houses each year were falling into disuse. I do not think there is any reason to suppose that the position in 1957 is any better; indeed, it may well be worse, for the price of repairs and maintenance since 1953 has increased by another 10 per cent. and is now at a figure of over 3½ times the 1939 price level. So I support this Bill for what I hope will be its impact both on under-accommodation and on disrepair.
I support it, furthermore, because, at long last, it does something to remedy the injustices from which the owners of rent-restricted property have for so long been suffering. For the past forty years and more, a small section of the community has been called upon to subsidise more than half the actual population of the country—a subsidy which, over the years, must have amounted to many thousands of millions of pounds. Indeed, it might well be said in this context that "never has so much been owed by so many to so few." But human nature is such that creditors are ever maligned by their debtors, and landlords, far from receiving acclaim or even acknowledgment, are reviled. The words "private landlords" are pronounced sneeringly, as though they spelt "public enemy". The exploited are labelled "the exploiters" and truth is turned upside down.
I have before me a pamphlet which recently has been widely and conscientiously distributed to tenants of rent-restricted property in London. This pamphlet states that the Conservative Government have arranged for a present to the landlords which will total nearly £100 million. The only comment I wish to make is that if the effect of this new Bill, as is expected, is to add £100 million to the rent rolls of the landlords, the landlords will still be far from receiving their full economic rents; and the subsidies they will still be providing have been estimated at some £50 million per annum. So much for the "present" which landlords are to receive.

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Much has been said about the hardships which this Bill is going to inflict. It would be idle to pretend that it is possible to break down the adhesions of this forty-year-old paralysis without causing some discomfort and inconvenience but is the hardship really going to be so dreadful? As we have been reminded to-day, the National Assistance Board will in many cases pay the required increase, and the amount which is likely to be so paid out is estimated at £18 million, leaving some £80 million to be provided from the private pocket of the community. The community's present annual expenditure on rent and rates is some £830 million, a figure which may be compared with the community's expenditure on alcohol, £860 million, and on tobacco, £880 million. In other words, the Rent Bill is to equate the community's expenditure on rents, very roughly (for it is very little more) with its expenditure, severally, on alcohol and tobacco. In these circumstances it is a little outlandish to claim, as has been claimed by Opposition spokesmen in another place, that this Bill is going to lead to starvation and an increase in the mortality rate.
Time is getting late. May I therefore refer only briefly to a few matters of detail in the Bill itself. Clause 10 in effect decontrols any dwellings vacant at or after the commencement of the Act, and as a result thousands of dwellings have stood empty since last November and will remain empty until after the Bill has been passed, The housing shortage has thus been temporarily, and perhaps unnecessarily, aggravated, Representations were made to the Minister on this point some months ago and it was suggested that this unfortunate situation might be avoided if Clause 10 were redrafted so as to make decontrol operate retrospectively. But the Minister was deaf to entreaty and, so far as I know, dumb as to the reasons for his deafness. I have no doubt that he had good reasons, but it would be interesting if we could know what they were.
Secondly, it would appear that the benefits of Clause 1 of the Bill are denied to owners of requisitioned premises where the requisitioning authority is still the tenant. Could the noble and learned Viscount in his reply say whether this is the intention, and, if so, why it should be so? It further appears that the benefits of the clause are denied to all houses in
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a clearance area, including those which are fit for human habitation and in good repair. Again I wonder whether we could be told if this is the intention, and, if so, why it should be so.
I should like to support my noble friend Lord Meston with regard to Clause 4, although I would suggest that the solution of the problem which is worrying him is to have in the Bill a definition of the word "services". No definition of that word was included in the 1954 Act and much private and public time and money was spent in arguing what did or did not constitute services. I suggest that it would be in everyone's interest if such a definition could be included. There are other points which I have in mind. Those I have made are possibly more suitable for a later stage of the Bill, and I have indicated them only roughly and briefly.
In conclusion, I would merely say that I consider this a good Bill and perhaps your Lordships can make it a better Bill. May we hope that it will not resemble the last Rent Bill which came to your Lordships' House and which proved to be virtually impervious to amendment. I think the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, will bear me out that that Bill was brought from another place almost as a command, and had it been graven on tablets of stone it could, hardly have been less amenable to amendment. It is to be hoped that the Bill now before your Lordships comes to this House in more malleable form.
6.47 p.m.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, we are now moving towards the end of a lengthy, comprehensive and revealing debate on this Rent Bill, revealing not only as to its proposals but also as to the attitude of mind and of approach which informs both the Bill and its promoters. The noble Earl, Lord Munster, with his accustomed ability, sought to explain the purposes of this complicated Bill and its Schedules, but somehow he did not seem to be very happy in his work this afternoon. If that is so, I can well understand his misgivings as to the social justice of this measure. In order to buttress his exiguous case he was reduced to praying in aid alleged and, save in one instance, unquoted statements of other persons.
Listening with, I hope, proper attention to what has been said up to the

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present in support of the Bill, I cannot resist the feeling that the proceedings this afternoon have an air of utter unreality when we reflect on how gaunt and grim are the housing conditions in which vast numbers of our people live to-day—which are very different from the rather Panglossian view which the noble Earl, Lord Munster, seems to accept. I do not propose to address myself very closely to the specific proposals of this Bill, the unsatisfactory character of which has been fully dealt with by previous speakers from this side of your Lordships' House. I propose to invite your Lordships to look at this Bill in the context of the grave housing problem which confronts us, in relation to which the terms of this Bill are footling and in many respects irrelevant.
Our really urgent problem is to provide sufficient decent, hygienic, comfortable dwellings in which worthy homes can be made and enjoyed by our people. A very eminent statesman, happily still with us, said many years ago that the foundations of national welfare are set in the homes of the people. It was Mr. Winston Churchill, now Sir Winston, when he was Home Secretary. It is as true now as it was then. Indeed, in our modern idiom its truth is greater and certainly more imperative. By that token this Bill is a bad Bill, for it will do little or nothing to provide decent homes for the people, and I trust your Lordships' House will not incur the public obloquy of giving it a Second Reading.
The purpose of this Bill is not to provide homes for the people but to increase rents. It will not make any real contribution towards alleviating our lamentable housing shortage. At most it will, under the whip of increased rents and decontrol with the ultimate power of eviction, move some people around within the existing gravely inadeqaute housing accommodation which is available. As regards the decontrol of some 800,000 dwellings, plus 125,000 a year estimated to be decontrolled on vacant possession, it will create a one-sided freedom for landlords in a market which is tragically in short supply. It is idle to suggest that there is a free market in housing at the present time. Welcome as may be the easements as to decontrol which have been introduced under pressure in another place, these will only achieve a
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lengthening of the period of insecurity for those whose dwellings will be decontrolled.
Thousands of tenants of the dwellings to be decontrolled are already living in mortal anxiety of the increased rents they will be called upon to pay under the pressure of possible eviction. This, I suppose, is yet another expression of the Tory conception of "Setting the people free". There is, unhappily, nothing new about that. This split-mind conception of freedom is all of a piece with the historic conceptions of Toryism—handing a large section of the people over to the savage freedom of being helpless in a housing market in desperately short supply. As my noble friend Lord Silkin said, during the General Election of 1955 the Conservative Party denied that they had any intention of increasing rents. This denial was headed in Daily Notes—
" Rents: Misleading the People."
In the presence of this Bill, how correct was that heading! The people were misled, grossly misled, by the Party representatives of the present Government. Thus this Bill is a sorry breach of faith, without honour and without excuse. It was, in fact, a pretty definite pledge. Unhappily thousands of the electors accepted it and relied upon it. Only now do they realise, with bitter resentment, as recent by-elections clearly demonstrate, that they have been misled and they were, in fact, sold down the river.
I cannot help recalling in this connection that in the discussions as to the reform of your Lordships' House the defenders of the power of delay have based their claim largely upon the right to refer to the electorate proposals for which it was considered the Government of the day had no mandate—the doctrine of "think again", I think it has been called. I have never personally accepted that point of view. But, clearly, the Government had no mandate for this Rent Bill. On the contrary, they have a mandate based on their own assurance not to increase rents: surely an occasion, if ever there was one, when this House should reject this Bill and tell the Government to seek a clear mandate and to seek release from the undertaking given at the time of the General Election on which. inter alia, they were returned to office, Nothing could, I think, better restore this House in the esteem of the people than

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that it should use its powers to secure that undertakings given should be kept and that good faith shall prevail as an attribute in the government of the people. In short, let us make the Government think again: the electors are already doing so, as is so clearly manifest in the country.
My Lords, I concede that there may well be a claim for fair and reasonable increases of rents where the condition of repair and the amenities provided are of a reasonable standard. But this Bill will result in savage increases for a vast number of disgracefully sub-standard dwellings. This Bill in this respect is monstrously unselective. Dwellings without even the most elementary amenities will attract increases of rent alike with those up to reasonable standards, for the obligation en the landlord is limited to repairs and does not extend to the provision of the amenities which millions of dwellings lack. Nothing is required to be done to those under-provided dwellings. Indeed, in this respect the owners of properties which are up to a fair standard of amenity have a real grievance, for had structural house property is treated in this Bill in the same way as good structural property.
Quite wrongly the Government approach this problem as one of rents, whereas it is a problem of homes for the people, of a social need which must ultimately and in large measure be met as a social service. The growing extent to which local authorities have been compelled, in default of private enterprise and because of its failure in the past, to provide dwellings for the people is proof of the fact that it cannot he left to private enterprise. Already local authorities have built over three million dwellings because it was unprofitable for private enterprise to do so. Then, as always, it is left to public enterprise. Local authorities are required, at great cost, to clear slums which were built by private enterprise and which have been allowed to become slums or near-slums by private enterprise. Without this housing activity by local authorities, which must continue and expand, our economic and social structure could not function.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: May I interrupt the noble Lord? I trust that in the course of his remarks he will
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remind your Lordships' House that all local authorities' houses are completely out of the control of the Rent Acts.
LORD LATHAM: I appreciate that; I do not dispute it. But the point the noble Earl has sought to make has no relevance to what I am saying.
I will repeat: without this housing activity by local authorities, which must continue and expand, our economic and social structure could not function; it would break down. Disease and sickness would once again be rampant. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, said years ago, when he was Minister of Health, "Slums are radiating centres of disease and sickness". The maintenance of good health among the people is now recognised by all persons as a national obligation and it is so provided for as a social service. But good housing, with proper amenities, is one of the essential bases of good health, of a healthy, vigorous and lively people. It is idle to talk about an "Opportunity State" if half our families are denied the opportunity of good and healthy living accommodation—which is, unhappily, the case to-day. What is true of the declared slums is also true of hundreds of thousands of houses, part, houses and flats, which, although not yet officially represented or declared as unfit, are nevertheless in such bad condition, so lacking in essential amenities or are so overcrowded as to be cruelly destructive of good health. Yet these dwellings, deficient as they are, will attract increases of rent unless they are also in a certifiable state of disrepair.
Let me briefly sketch the shameful picture of how a vast mass of our people are housed in these days—I quote from the Census of 1951. Of the 14½ million households, nearly 7 million had no fixed bath of their own. Over 3 million shared, or were entirely without, a water closet. Nearly 2 million shared, or were without, a kitchen sink. Over one million shared, or were without, a cooking stove.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but if, as he says, these facts are taken from the Census of 1951, he might in candour remind the House that that was after a very long period of Labour Government.
EARL ATTLEE: And after a war.
LORD LATHAM: I suggest that the noble Viscount contains himself in patience. Even in this great capital city of London, one-quarter of the dwellings have no piped water supply. One-sixth of them have no separate kitchen sink. Over one-third of them have no separate water closet. About two-thirds have no separate bathroom. In the presence of these conditions, how a Minister of the Crown can prattle that we are not very far away from the total amount of housing accommodation that the nation needs, I really cannot understand.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, the noble Lord does realise, I take it, that the Minister who said that was Mr. Bevan.
LORD LATHAM: No; unhappily for the noble Lord, the Minister who said those words which I have quoted was not Mr. Bevan; it was a former Minister of Housing, Mr. Sandys.
LORD CONESFORD: But he quoted it from Mr. Bevan: I gave the reference.
LORD LATHAM: I have seen the reference. What I have quoted was what was said by Mr. Sandys. The facts I have given constitute a pretty ugly picture, in these days of jet-propulsion and nuclear power, and all the other arts of good living which lie ready to our hands.
There is much talk about under-occupation: that if every family had just the accommodation that its size and needs required—no more, no less—there would be sufficient dwellings to go round. Really, that is no more than a fringe element of the housing problem. If families were Meccano sets and could be uprooted and fitted in as such, it might be possible, by dint of ignoring all personal and human considerations, to add in small degree to the number of housing units available. Proceeding from this assumption, the Bill rests upon the illusory notion that if rents are higher or dwellings decontrolled, then the pressure of such will force people to change their dwellings; and hey presto! every family will be fitted into precisely the accommodation they are assumed to need, and the shortage of decent dwellings will disappear overnight.
In very truth, the problem is not one of under-occupation, but of over-
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occupation—of serious overcrowding in mostly sub-standard dwellings. That is the real problem. Nothing more quickly turns a dwelling built and equipped for single-family occupation into a slum than its occupation by several families, especially when the house is under-provided with amenities, as hundreds of thousands of them are. When a member of the Government avers that the supply of housing accommodation will more or less match the demand this year, one stands aghast at his immoderation. For the local authority waiting lists of hundreds of thousands of applicants cry out aloud in denial. In truth and in fact this nation is shockingly short of dwellings for the people. Figures which are available, and which I could quote if there were time, are eloquent and bitter testimony to this. The human aspects of this shortage were graphically and poignantly described in the London newspaper, the Star, on March 18 last. It said:
" This housing problem can best be approached by seeing it in terms of human beings, of young people longing to marry and bring up families, of young couples living with in-laws instead of in separate homes, and of families, cooped up in two rooms because they can find nothing better."
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I wonder if I might interrupt the noble Lord just to say this. In view of the dismal picture which the noble Lord is painting, is he not sincerely grateful to the Governments which have been in power since 1951 for the great improvements they have made over the record of the Socialist Party when it was in office?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: That is not written in the manuscript.
LORD LATHAM: Can any person of good will feel other than ashamed that this state of miserable living should exist in these days? The Prime Minister, bent, it seems, on building up an anthology of dusty slogans, has now added to his collection "The vista of hope". I put it to your Lordships, what "vista of hope" can people living in these miserable housing conditions have or cherish? It is for them not a vista of hope but a vista of despair.
Since the First World War, private enterprise has more or less abdicated its function of providing houses for the lower income groups. During those unworthy

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and accusing years between the wars, the local authorities built 950,000 houses for the working class—all of them to let—
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: At controlled rents?—
LORD LATHAM: Whereas private enterprise built 550,000, of which from 150,000 to 200,000 only were for letting. Since 1945 local authorities have built over two-thirds of the dwellings and private enterprise less than one-third. In the County of London since 1945—and the County of London is not unrepresentative of other large congested cities—the local authorities have built between them no fewer than 126,000 dwellings, all to let. Over the same period, private enterprise built no more than 9,900, very few of which were to let; almost all of them were for sale. What agency is it that is providing the dwelling-houses of the working people of this country?—not private enterprise but public enterprise.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I think that we are being very patient. There is a Standing Order of the House which says that it is alien to the custom of the House and to the interests and traditional conduct of our business that a speech should be read. The noble Lord has been addressing the House for some considerable time, reading every single word.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, I appreciate having been singled out from among many speakers this afternoon for mention on how I am to deliver my speech. I repeat, the housing of the largest section of the people has already passed into the realm of a public service; nor can we turn back the process. We can only recognise its inevitability, for reasons which I shall give.
This Bill does not improve or replace the known mass of sub-standard houses. For whatever repairs are required to be done, they do not, and will not, include providing a bath, a separate water closet, a kitchen sink, a cooking stove, or an inside water supply. These conditions, I submit, show that the housing of the working people cannot be left to the fugitive mercy of commercial profitability. Public agencies must step in and do the job. Whatever social and economic advances have taken place in the past
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fifty years, there are still two nations within our nation, divided now into those who are fortunate enough to enjoy decent accommodation wherein to live in a civilised self-respecting way, and the rest, numbering about half of our families, who are compelled to exist in substandard housing conditions. Living in these sub-standard dwellings seriously impairs the beneficial results otherwise obtainable from the other social services, notably the health service and education. Especially is much of the benefits of the influence of school life vitiated and undone by the bad housing conditions in which a disturbingly large number of our children have to live. It is heartrending to teachers and education authorities to witness, often helplessly and despairingly, how their work in school is undone by the difficulties of home life, largely due to bad and inferior housing accommodation.
Any informed person must admit that, formidable as is the case that can be made against the owners of old housing property, it is the case that in any present or prospective view of building costs, the rents they are receiving are not sufficient to enable the owners to modernise and improve their properties up to an acceptable standard or to replace them. The "carrot" of the grants under the Housing Repairs and Rents Act, 1954, coupled with the right of owners to increase rents by 8 per cent. on the net money they spend, has failed in its purpose. That is admitted on all hands and is conclusive proof that the job cannot be left to them. These sub-standard houses, because nothing is being done to modernise and improve them, are rapidly becoming slums, fit only for demolition and replacement. When that is so, who has the job to do?—the local authorities, at public expense. What is needed is a broad, imaginative, comprehensive policy for the modernisation and improvement of sub-standard dwellings where their habitability would justify the cost, and the replacement of the rest. This clearly cannot be done by private enterprise. Sooner or later it must be done as a public service. For this purpose the local authorities should be empowered, as and when practicable, as part of a worked-out plan, to take over all those sub-standard dwellings which fall within the present category of rent-controlled dwellings, paying a fair (no less

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and no more) compensation to their existing owners. The local authorities should then proceed, within the limits of labour and materials available, to modernise and improve where the condition and the expected life of the property so justifies and, as to the rest, to do such care-and-maintenance work as would suffice until they can be replaced.
There remains the question of the cost of modernisation and replacement, which has been referred to this afternoon on several occasions, and the question of to what extent that cost should be reflected in the rents charged for the modernised and improved houses. What is the present position? As regards the replacement of slums, the local authorities are bound to provide re-housing accommodation, including overspill, at rents heavily subsidised. They are also bound to do the same as regards the relief of overcrowding. If things are left as they are, these sub-standard dwellings, because of lack of amenities and over-crowding, will become slums, with all the financial liabilities to State and local authorities which that involves.
Even with heavy subsidies, the rents charged by local authorities are, on the whole, higher than those charged by private enterprise for their sub-standard dwellings; but then council tenants are getting value for money, in modern, well-built, well-equipped accommodation, maintained—I repeat, maintained—in good repair. Whereas millions of families are to-day not getting value for money, however low the rents may be; and this will be all the more the case with the higher rents which will be chargeable under the proposals of this Bill. If the local authorities modernise and improve the dwellings which are worth it, replace the others, and give every family a decent, separate dwelling, then I am satisfied that the tenants will be prepared to pay appropriate rents, as a contribution to the cost involved and in return for the better and more comfortable accommodation—not, perhaps, equal to the whole cost, much of which arises from the neglect of the past and which the nation must pay in indemnity for its failure.
Moreover, this public expenditure would pay handsome dividends in the future in the improved health, habits, comfort and happiness of the people,
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especially of the children. The homes of the people should become worthy of the people. There is perhaps no sphere in which the standard of living of the people could now be more positively raised than in the field of housing. How better could the collective resources of the nation be employed and applied? And sooner or later, it will have to be done, and done by private enterprise—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, Hear!
LORD LATHAM: —by public enterprise. I thought that slip would not go unobserved. The longer the doing of it is delayed, the more it will cost, not only in human discomfort and unhappiness but also in terms of actual money. For the problem grows with every day that passes. Let no one airily dismiss these proposals that local authorities should take over sub-standard dwellings as being doctrinaire and based upon a rigid, impracticable ideology. I know that the word "ideology" has become a ready term of abuse, especially when no other valid argument exists. But I submit that there will be no alternative to the proposal which I have put forward.
VISCOUNT GAGE: I should like to ask the noble Lord one question, which is not in any way hostile. Is what he is saying in regard to the gradual taking over and modernising of these houses at the discretion of the local authority official Labour Party policy? Because other interpretations have been put on it.
LORD LATHAM: I am at the moment expressing my own views. But what the noble Viscount has said does not differ substantially from them.
I have sought to bring before your Lordships some of the essentials of the real housing problem which presses upon us. In these the aspect of rent must be present, but it is not the paramount aspect. The problem is not of rent, but of human beings: not of housing units, arithmetically and unrealistically assessed, but of men, women and children, their lives and their future. It is the problem of decent homes for all the people. It is also a question of our national self-respect. As I said earlier, it is our social problem number one. I sincerely believe that we cannot escape dealing with it in the way I have adumbrated. If we delay, it will be at our peril. For the

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people, especially the oncoming generations, will not be content indefinitely to go on living under conditions which are an affront to all canons of human dignity and good living. Nor should they. Why should there be one half of the nation without decent living accomodation?
It is about 112 years since Disraeli's book entitled Sybil or the Two Nations was published. It is a matter for pride and satisfaction that over the years that have since unfolded the social conscience of successive generations has led to the removal of many of those conditions of seething wretchedness, so graphically described by Disraeli in that book. But is it the case that we have removed them all? No, my Lords, not all; not nearly so. For there still survive among us millions of the dwellings which were built round about the time of which Disraeli wrote. In that respect we must confess, with shame, I feel, that there are still "Two Nations" in this island of ours divided by the standards of housing they respectively enjoy. The blot of a vast mass of disgraceful housing is still upon us. It is upon our national honour to remove it to see that all our people are housed under conditions where the sweet qualities of family life can take root and flourish. Until we have done this, the conscience of the nation will remain besmirched, and we shall have failed to do our duty to our fellows. Let us, therefore, reject this Bill and concert together to provide good, dignified homes for all the people.
7.26 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I have again had the good fortune of hearing every speech in this most interesting debate, and I feel that I have obtained great advantages therefrom. We have had, in the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and my noble friend Lord Ridley acknowledged experts on this subject; we have had an exposition of the local authority point of view by my noble friends Lord Gage and Lord Hylton and on the opposite side of the House the noble Lord, Lord Greenwood; and in the speech of a great local authority exponent, the noble Lord, Lord Latham, we have had a remarkable series of statements, with only one or two of which I desire to deal.
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I accept at once the challenge of the noble Lord to regard this matter in the context of a grave housing problem. The matter we have got to regard is the distorting and unequal shadow that a large number of Rent Acts, passed at different periods in the last forty-five years, now throw over the, houses of the day. But by all means let us consider the question in the context of our grave housing problem. Since 1945, over 2,500,000 new houses have been built. Of these, 1,500,000 have been built in the last five years under the Conservative Government. Before that period, as many of my noble friends know well, I myself implored the Labour Government in the House of Commons to build more houses; to get away from their miserable annual totals; to get away from the figure of which my noble friend Lord Conesford spoke, when they were admittedly building fewer houses than were falling into obsolescence. At that time, with all the implorings and demands that we made, the Labour Party and the Labour Government ignored the grave housing problem and produced the miserable figures to which reference has been made.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I must say that some protest is required against that statement. If you are going to compare actual figures of houses, you have to keep two things in mind. The first is the task of the Labour Government in 1945, undertaking a bankrupt inheritance, to restore industry, to set right the balance of trade, to increase general production by 70 per cent., to change over industry from war to peace, and, at the same time, to build houses, in the majority for rent and not for sale by private enterprise.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Viscount, of course, responds. But that was what we asked. I asked time and again that they should deal with the problem of which the noble Lord, Lord Latham, has spoken, the grave housing problem of our people. We met our constituents; we knew how they were living; and the Labour Government ignored that problem; they left it to us to deal with, and we have improved the position. But we have gone further—
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I must say that—
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Viscount must take it.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: So must the Lord Chancellor.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: We have had a forty minute speech from the noble Lord, Lord Latham, which he made in almost complete silence, and I am going to reply. We have gone beyond that. After dealing with the question of building these houses, and building them in a large proportion to let, we dealt with another problem which the Labour Government had ignored—the problem of slums. The Labour Government record on slum clearance is practically negligible—practically non-existence. We dealt with that subject. We said at the last Election that our target was 200,000 persons rehoused a year, and, as the Prime Minister said at Leicester, we are already more than half way towards our target. It was when we had done that that we came to deal with the problem of the existing houses.
In this debate nobody I have heard—and I have tried to pay the greatest attention to every speech—has denied that, because of artificially low rents, landlords have been unable to keep their dwellings in sound repair. Nobody has denied that the result has been the decay of a national asset which we can ill afford to lose. That is, at any rate, one of the admitted bases. There has been an argument, but not a strong argument, against the proposition that tenants have held on to large accommodation long after their requirements have been modified because they have been paying an artificially low rent. As there has been some argument on that point, I shall try to prove the proposition—and prove it out of the mouths of Labour speakers. There has been no argument against the point made by my noble friend Lord Munster that landlords of rent-controlled dwellings have, because of the Rent Acts, preferred to let furnished or to sell rather than let unfurnished.
There has been no argument against his further proposition that the absence of a pool of houses to let hinders the mobility of labour. I wish to say one or two words about that matter, because it also deals with the paint the noble
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Lord, Lord Silkin, made as to the question of under-occupation and the effect of this Bill. We believe that the relevant clause, which is largely directed at the present large amount of under-occupation, is essential. A free market is needed to bring into full availability all the accommodation at present under-occupied. We believe that this can be done to some extent by conversions, and also by encouraging landlords to let property which is now held vacant for sale, or property which is going out of use, or which could easily house more than one family. From all the information available, a free market would be the strongest safeguard against tenants being asked to pay excessive rents.
Now I come to the point which was made by several speakers and made in much the strongest terms by the noble Lord, Lord Latham, as to the effect on the general living standards and condition of our people. Let me accept that the effect of the Bill on the cost of living index would not be more than an increase of two points at the outside. That is a matter which can easily be worked out. If I may elaborate a little the point which was made by the last speaker on this side, I think it puts it into proper perspective. The Blue Books on National Income, any of them which one chooses, show that we have been spending a diminishing proportion of our income on rent over the last few years. The 1956 Blue Book gives the total of consumers' expenditure in 1955 as £12,783 million. That is what we, as consumers, spent on everything. Of this sum the item, "Rent rates and water charges" represented £837 million, or 6·55 per cent. For comparison, as my noble friend pointed out, we spent in the same year £859 million on alcoholic drinks and £880 million on tobacco and cigarettes.
That Blue Book shows that this percentage of 6·55 per cent. in 1955 was a serious decline. It had declined pretty steadily since 1946, when it was £548 million or 7·65 per cent. The downward trend is still more marked if we compare 1938 with to-day. Former White Papers on National Income gave a figure of £491 million for expenditure on "Rent, rates and water charges." That was 11·2 per cent. of the 1938 consumption. So that the proportional consumption on rent has gone down to nearly half, and it is

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a figure which is under the figure for drink and tobacco. And that is the figure of which the noble Lord, Lord Latham, complains, when the proportion of the country's income spent on rent has declined and is now less than that spent on drink or tobacco. I ask the noble Lord to consider again, before he bases his charges on figures which in reality so clearly tell in the opposite direction.
Let us consider it from the point of view of the way people's incomes have risen. Let me take the same two years. Between 1938 and 1955, all personal incomes together rose by 211 per cent., and are now above three times their pre-war level. If, as I have shown, payments for rent have risen much less, two conclusions follow. In the first place, those whose real incomes have kept up with, or gone ahead of, the price rise, are better off because they have to spend less in real terms on rent. In the second place, those who receive rents—often people whose only other source of revenue is fixed incomes, if they have any other source—are worse off because they have to pay higher prices for their needs. That is the position.
And now that the noble Lord, Lord Latham, I do not say attacked, but criticised in a friendly way, my noble friend, Lord Munster, for not having produced his quotations, I will fill up the gap. Nothing would give us greater pleasure. I should like to say this, and I say it in all friendliness: the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, is far too modest about his speech in 1952. If he knew the number of people in this country who have read that speech, or portions of it, since he made it, he would, I am sure, in his modesty, be surprised. But, I should like to assure him, the speech was worth it. I do not want to take anything out of its context so the House will forgive me if I give enough to show that I am quoting fairly. Let me give the first quotation which I like [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 177, col. 1029]:
" Of course, that is not the whole picture. We have to take into account the large number of people who are being subsidised out of private sources—that is, under the Rent Restrictions Acts. It looks to me as if, before very long, 90 per cent. of the people of this country will be housed at the expense of other people."
The noble Lord went on to say [col. 1032]:
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" I realise also—here I impinge on the question which the noble Earl, Lord Winterton, put to me—that there is the problem that not only are large numbers of people being subsidised by private owners of land, but in many cases, though not in all, houses no longer produce a profit to the owner. At existing rents he is even unable to carry out the necessary repairs, and houses are rapidly going into decay."
That is the burden of the song which the noble Earl, Lord Munster, and I want to put before your Lordships at the present day.
Now may I deal with the question of under-occupation? I will give authority which I am sure will appeal to the noble Lord, Lord Latham. I cannot think why he did not read it before he committed himself to what he said within the past three-quarters of an hour. My authority, of course, is Mr. Aneurin Bevan. I refer to the speech which he made on the Second Reading of the Housing Repairs and Rents Bill, 1954, on November 30, 1953 [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 521, col. 826]:
" Every Minister who has handled this problem knows that, taking the country as a whole, we are not very far away from the amount of total accommodation which the nation requires."
I must say that that rather burned in my mind, and occasionally burned in the minds of all my noble friends who were sitting here, when the noble Lord. Lord Latham, castigated us for making the point. What point? The point that Mr. Aneurin Bevan had admitted. It does not stop there. Since Mr. Aneurin Bevan made that statement on November 30, 1953, 1,044,000 further houses have been built, so what would he say now?
But do not let us stop there. Mr. Bevan went on:
" I could mention areas like Slough and other parts outside London where, because of local circumstances, the total accommodation is still well below what is required, but if we take the country as a whole we find that there is a very great deal of under-occupation. Sanitary inspectors in instance after instance have made house-to-house surveys, and in the middle-sized towns they have found hundreds of houses occupied by only one person apiece."
Now listen to this, my Lords:
" The nation is in grave danger, unless it is careful, of being stupidly extravagant."
That is what we are trying to prevent, and the noble Lord, Lord Latham, has expressed views which, if I may put it mildly, are very difficult to reconcile with these pronouncements of so distinguished

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a member of his Party and the occupant of the position of Minister of Health in charge of housing for years under the noble Earl, Lord Attlee.
LORD LATHAM: If I may say so, they may be pronouncements but they are not pronunciamento.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If the noble Lord, Lord Latham, says that any pronouncement of Mr. Aneurin Bevan is not a pronunciamento, I should rather the noble Lord, Lord Latham, said it than I did. I am a brave man but I am not going to plunge into the internecine quarrels of the Party opposite. I will leave that to them.
Let me come to another point. We have had some discussion on housing lists. The point has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that there was the evidence of shortage. Again, it was underlined by the noble Lord, Lord Latham. I believe that the answer is that the figures on these lists are no real indication of the relative gravity of the housing situation. They indicate a demand for council houses but not necessarily urgent need. The unreliability of these lists, because of duplication between lists and the lack of revision, has been recognised by Ministers of all Parties. Again, let me give an example because, if I have to try to instruct noble Lords opposite, I like to instruct them with the milk of their own words. Let me again take Mr. Bevan on his point. When Mr. Bevan was pressed in 1950 to publish totals of waiting lists, he said on March 9, 1950 [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 472, Col. 463]:
" the information derived gives an erroneous picture of the effective total demand…."
But, seriously, the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, put it with perfect frankness and in proper proportion, if he will allow me to say so. He quoted the figure of the London County Council list of 163,000 and said that of these only 55,000 and I use the word "only" merely to make the comparison—were urgent cases. I believe that puts the position in this way: that some proportion—it may be two-thirds or it may be a little more—of people on local authority lists are already housed, but they naturally want better accommodation. That deals with two of the points that have been put up in the course of this debate. Our method of
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solving the problem, which has to be solved, received much criticism because, of course, our solution leaves the position that nearly 5 million houses—or six out of every seven controlled houses to let—will remain controlled: that is, those with a rateable value of £40 and below in London and Scotland, and £30 elsewhere.
Of course, the big figures of decontrol are those houses that are in owner-occupation and those that will come into owner-occupation. But there is a further slice, as it is usually called, of some 800,000 tenant-occupied houses. I think it was the noble Lords, Lord Wise and Lord Amulree, who expressed doubts whether it was right to have any further decontrol done by Affirmative Resolution rather than by legislation. As my noble friend pointed out, it is to be done by Affirmative Resolution. That means that in another place, and of course here, the Government must find time for it. In the other place that is an important matter, because it has to be done in Government time. But I should have thought—I put this to the noble Lord for his consideration—that on so tender and sensitive a subject as this where an Affirmative Resolution is required, unless the Minister is completely certain of his ground and prepared to answer for it, he will not too readily make a new advance.
The other point that I wanted to make clear is one that has been made by my noble friend Lord Hylton. My noble friend (I do not want to repeat what he has done) examined the safeguards that have been included in this Bill. I should just like to summarise what they are—I can merely state them in a line, and I shall not repeat what my noble friend has said in justifying them. So far as the tenant who is decontrolled is concerned, there is first this safeguard: that he cannot be evicted, nor can the rent be increased, without his consent, for a period of fifteen months. If within that fifteen months he so desires, he can make a new agreement for at least three years, effective at once. Premiums and concealed premiums are illegal under Clauses 12 and 13. Speculation will be stopped. The tenant gets compensation for the improvements he has made. That deals with a tenant who is decontrolled.
For the tenant who continues to be controlled, the first safeguard is that three

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months' notice must be given of the initial increase, and for six months after that the increase can be only 7s. 6d. a week. The second is that his widow has her right to succeed in the tenancy. Thirdly—I think this is important—for nearly three out of four houses the new rent limits will be less than 20s. a week. Again, my noble friend Lord Hylton most helpfully broke down that three-quarters into increases of 5s. to 7s. 6d. and 7s. 6d. to 10s. The position is that for three out of every four tenants the rent limit will be under £1 a week. Again I ask the noble Lord, Lord Latham, to consider this fact. At the present time, the average industrial wage is £12 a week, and the increases of which we are talking, broken up, as the noble Lord pointed out, will mean for nearly 1 million tenants 5s. or under, and for three out of every four the upper limit will be under 20s. a week. With an average wage of £12 a week, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Latham, really to consider whether, on full reflection, he can justify what he has said to-day. I suggest that it cannot be justified on these figures—which we all welcome and desire in these conditions of full employment—and that that point cannot be made.
I want to detain your Lordships for only a little longer, because, after a great deal of pressure from my noble friends on that side of the House, and put with the greatest friendliness and kindness, we did at last get out of the noble Lord, Lord Latham, a resounding defence of the Labour Party's proposals. I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wise, that on Second Reading you can look only at the Bill. On the Second Reading of a Bill you have to look at the alternatives before the country. One reason for not passing a Bill would be that you preferred the alternative that was still in the political womb of the Party opposite. Let us consider that.
They produced, first, Challenge to Britain in 1953, and now Homes of the Future, as blueprints for the municipalisation of 6 million tenanted rent-controlled houses—that is, houses apart from those actually in owner-occupation. Under this scheme, all these dwellings are to be decontrolled and simultaneously taken over by the local authorities. Again, Mr. Bevan said at the Labour Party Conference
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at Blackpool on October 2, 1956:
" It "—
meaning municipalisation—
" will have to come into operation simultaneously on a given date, otherwise it will not start."
Now let us consider why. The first point that emerges is that local authorities are to be monopoly landlords; and as monopoly landlords in their several areas they will fix new and higher rents. The council tenant has no security of tenure, nor has his widow. To-day, if he thinks the local authority's rent is unfair he can get a private letting. In the Socialist tomorrow, the tenant who falls out with his housing authority will have nowhere else to turn, except the street, because there is a monopoly landlord. If there was ever any doubt as to the power that local authorities would enjoy under municipalisation with regard to the control of housing, that has been dispelled from my mind by an authoritative statement that was made only a month ago—namely:
" I live for the day when local authorities will have the opportunity to control the letting of rented property throughout London…we must avoid duplication of the problem by controlling the number of people who come to live in London."
That is the future, and as in London, so everywhere else. But of course we have to justify—
LORD LATHAM: May we be told who said that?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, certainly—Mr. Mellish, from the Labour Front Bench in another place on March 18. It is not usual to refer to a person by a name unless that person is a member of the Government; that is why I put it in the form I did. But, of course, I have no objection at all to saying it.
We then have to look at the financing of municipalisation. The Labour Party were extremely coy about this. On April 3 Mr: Gaitskell said:
" There is no financial problem at all. It is absolutely simple."
Yet, as I say, the Socialists have been reluctant to explain how their scheme is to be financed. As the News Chronicle put it at the time, the plan "slithers around the arithmetic".
My Lords, so much ridicule was poured on the project that, eventually, Transport

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House have been forced to lift a corner of this iron or safety curtain (whichever you like to regard it as) in order to tell us something about it. So, in an article in Tribune, Mr. Anthony Greenwood revealed for the first time what the cost of compensation under the Socialist plan was going to be. He said that it would be about £2,500 million. That compares with the Prime Minister's estimate, when he was Minister of Housing, on April 23, 1954, of £3,000 million, so that we have some brackets for this expenditure. Mr. Greenwood wrote:
" If of course compensation was paid in the form of stock or annuities the Exchequer would have to be responsible for their issue."
Mr. Greenwood said the annual sum involved would be only £125 million. So there we have it—the total sum of whatever it may be, the £2,500 million or £3,000 million, and the cost of servicing. And we do not stop there: we still have repairs, maintenance and improvements. If you take it on one figure which has been produced, that would be more than another £2,500 million. Let us say that it is a very large sum. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, with a courage which I thought only he could have shown, upbraided us for the inflationary effect of the Bill. What would be the inflationary effect of these expenditures—of our releasing that amount of purchasing power in the community? The servicing of it alone would increase taxation by £125 million and put 1s. on to income tax. Rates would go up and there would be a general inflation which might well bring about another Socialist devaluation of the £. That is the finance of the alternative.
Let us consider the administrative machinery. The year 1951 is quite a long time ago, and we have forgotten how the Labour Party loves its bureaucracy. This will remind us. The acquisition and management of 5 million houses would be an enormous task, and it would probably take a long time to come to the point of simultaneous acquisition. In the interim, nothing would happen to the houses. Decay would be accentuated. It would, of course, involve big and costly administrative machinery, for which tenants would have to pay something more in their rents.
I hesitate to speak in the presence of such very distinguished representatives
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of local government, of great experience, as we have in this House (and here I speak with complete sincerity, and I hope that no one will misunderstand me), but I ask them to consider what would be the effect on local government and politics of having the housing issue as far and away the most important issue bedevilling local government and bedevilling the whole of politics. That is the alternative. I have tried to put it before your Lordships again, as I try to put all my arguments, clothing them in the admirable words used by my political opponents so that out of their own mouths the arguments speak to your Lordships. When one comes to the end of the day I do not think there is much doubt as to making one's choice.
I want now to pass to one or two points which are in the general field. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, mentioned the question of exchanges. I am informed that my right honourable friend the Minister is sympathetic to a provision facilitating exchanges and will look into that point. Though I cannot make any promises at the moment, I should like the noble Lord to know that that is being considered. The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, raised the question of old people. I would remind him that there is a special subsidy for the building of one-bedroom houses or flats suitable for old people, and this subsidy was retained when the others were altered. The point is in our minds and I am sure the noble Lord will consider what he would like to do at a later stage of the Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Wise, made a plea for the substitution of rateable value for gross value. My noble friend Lord Munster mentioned the answer to that. It is clear that it would be a most serious alteration in the Bill, and on the technicalities of it I respectfully think the point more suitable for the Committee stage. A number of other noble Lords were good enough to mention a number of points verging on the technical. I hope they will be content if I say that I am most grateful to them for having given notice of these points, and that they will all be carefully considered before the Committee stage. Noble Lords can either put down Amendments then, or we can have a discussion on the Question, That the clause stand part or if there is any one point in which noble Lords are particularly interested, I or one of my noble

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friends will be very glad to consider the matter. That applies to everyone in every part of the House, for I always like to do that, even with Bills of this kind.
I am sorry to have detained your Lordships so long, but the noble Lord, Lord Latham and I know each other very well and I am sure he knew that when he made that speech he was drinking the joy of battle with his peers and that his approach would be answered.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, I count it as a success.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for putting it in that delightful way, but am sure he would have been sorry had he not provoked an answer. All I can say is that I have done my best to answer him.
I want to say only one final word, which has been the keynote of a number of speeches from my noble friends on this occasion. I have said, and I say again, that if this Government were to select a new motto for themselves that motto would be: "Solution, not circumlocution". This problem of the Rent Acts is one which has been accepted for many years as existing, and everyone has said that it is a problem full of dynamite. That does not excuse a Government from failing to try to solve the problem. We are prepared to face its complexities; but what we are not prepared to do is to leave a problem of vital importance, causing a distortion of our free economy and failing to preserve a national asset and to do justice between the persons concerned. We are not prepared to leave that kind of problem undealt with merely because it causes political difficulties. It is in that sense that we ask your Lordships to give this Bill a Second Reading.
8.10 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, before the Bill goes to Second Reading, may I say that we shall follow the usual course on Second Readings of not dividing the House. That was the course adopted by
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Her Majesty's Government in these matters when the Party were in Opposition. I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Latham for having raised such fine and specific issues, and having evoked the reply which indicates the general attitude of the Government to these matters. We are not at all concerned about these dreadful prognostications of Socialist finance. After all, £125 million would be much less than you have cost the country in the increase in the servicing of your unfunded debt by your general policy in failing to deal with inflation. We will leave these matters until May 15. When you put the Question we shall say "No," but we shall not divide.
On Question, Bill read 2a; and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ROAD TRANSPORT LIGHTING BILL
Read 2a (according to Order), and referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
NEWPORT CORPORATION (WATER) BILL [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bill: read and ordered to lie on the Table.
PORT OF LONDON BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

NEW STREETS ACT, 1951 (AMENDMENT) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
House adjourned at eleven minutes past eight o'clock.