Sitting of 13 November 1956

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EMPLOYMENT

    Short-Time Operatives and Women Workers
    Mr. D. Howellasked the Minister of Labour what facilities exist for recording statistics concerning short-time workers and women workers not registering at employment exchanges; and whether he will consider improving such facilities in order to provide more accurate information.
    The Minister of Labour and National Service (Mr. Iain Macleod): Employers in the manufacturing industries supply information once a quarter showing the number of operatives working short time and the aggregate number of hours lost during a particular week by those operatives owing to short time. As from next month these employers will also be asked to include the number of workers on short time in their monthly returns of employment. The figures include those operatives working short time but not registered at the employment exchanges.
    No facilities exist for recording the numbers of women who do not register at exchanges when they lose their jobs.
    Mr. Howell: While thanking the Minister of Labour for that slight improvement, may I ask him whether he is aware that there is some concern, especially in trade union circles, because it is impossible to follow the pattern of employment and unemployment unless we have up-to-date statistics? Would he consider trying to make available—and earlier than this kind of information is available at the moment—more complete information, particularly about married women who do not work during periods
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    of under-employment? These are necessary if labour, both management and trade unions, is to follow what is happening in the industrial areas of this country.
    Mr. Macleod: I am anxious to get the statistics as accurate as possible. The change which I have announced, which will give us monthly figures, is a very great improvement. In reply to the second part of the question, how we can find out the number of married women who have opted out of insurance and do not register at employment exchanges, I am bound to say that I cannot think of any method by which that could be recorded.
    Mr. Shurmer: Some of us learned yesterday in Birmingham that 1,000 men have been lost to employment in the last twelve months and none is being taken on to replace them. Does not the Minister think it would be a good idea for employers of labour in industries in the industrial centres to state every month the number of people who have left their employment and who are not to be replaced? It is very difficult for us to find out this information. We met one of the Minister's officials during the Recess and were unable to get the exact figure of unemployment in Birmingham of married women who were not prepared to sign on at employment exchanges.
    Mr. Macleod: I am bound to say that I do not think I altogether follow the hon. Member's question. I will study it in HANSARD, and if I can do anything about it I will.

    National Dock Labour Board (Disabled Persons)
    Mr. Edward Evansasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Liverpool National Dock Labour Board has a quota of only 2·7 per cent. disabled persons in its employment, and that this contravenes the statutory quota of 3 per cent. under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act, 1944; and what steps he is taking to see that the regulations are fully implemented.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service (Mr. Robert Carr): As stated in reply to the hon. Member on 30th October, my officers are in contact with the Board

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    about its obligations. The figure of 2·7 per cent. refers to the percentage of disabled persons in the employment of the National Dock Labour Board in the country as a whole.
    Mr. Evans: In view of the very grave concern among all people who are interested in the employment and rehabilitation of disabled persons, would the Minister tell us whether the Dock Board is liable to a penalty for the infringement of the regulations? Does he agree that these rather arbitrary dismissals violate the accepted principle of the rehabilitation of disabled persons? Will he not agree that a medical certificate in itself is not necessarily the criterion of employability for a disabled person?
    Mr. Carr: As I think the hon. Member realises, it is not a legal offence to be below the statutory quota. It becomes an offence if, when he is below the quota, an employer dismisses a disabled worker without proper reason or takes on a non-registered worker without a special permit from the Ministry of Labour. It is not an offence simply to be below the statutory quota. I can, however, assure the hon. Member that my officers are taking this matter up urgently with the National Dock Labour Board.

    Oil Supplies
    Mr. Leeasked the Minister of Labour whether he is yet able to make a statement as to the effects upon employment levels of the interruption of our oil supplies, and the restrictions now imposed.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The restrictions announced on 7th November are not expected to have any appreciable effect on employment.
    Mr. Lee: Is the Minister aware that now that we have a clearer picture of the extent of the blocking of the Canal and the blowing up of these pipelines, it appears that the present restrictions will scarcely be sufficient to meet the oil shortages which we can expect? Is he aware that in the case of the steel industry and others which are great users of oil, once their levels of oil stocks begin to drop there will be a cumulative effect upon all the manufacturing industries which use steel? Would the Government as soon as possible give some picture of
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    how they propose to keep these essential industries at work, because once they begin to drop other industries will suffer accordingly?
    Mr. Macleod: Many of those are matters for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power, and I should be glad to discuss with him what the hon. Member has just said.

    Foreign Workers and Refugees
    Mr. Leeasked the Minister of Labour whether he will make an estimate of the number of foreign workers accepted into British industry since the end of the war.
    Mr. G. Darlingasked the Minister of Labour how many persons who can be classified as refugees, including members of the Polish Army, displaced persons, European voluntary workers and others, have found work in this country since 1940; and what objections have been made to him against their employment by any trade union.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: It is estimated that since the war about 260,000 foreign workers have been permitted to take up employment in industry in Great Britain. About 205,000 foreigners who can be broadly classified as refugees have entered industrial or other employment. Their resettlement has been accomplished with the co-operation of the trade unions.
    Mr. Lee: I am very appreciative of the nature of the Minister's reply. Does he not agree that it is a very fine thing that a nation such as ours can agree to help, to the extent represented by this huge figure, people who otherwise would have been unemployed in their own country, and who, when they have come here, in the main have done a jolly good job of work for the country as a whole?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes. Of course, the trade union movement, which is a very typical British institution, shares the ordinary liberal and humanist sympathies which we all have.

    Apprenticeships, Scotland
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Labour what percentage of Scottish boys leaving school at 15 years and 16 years, respectively, at the last school-leaving

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    period entered into apprenticeships, or learnership to skilled crafts leading to apprenticeships; and if he will give comparisons with similar figures for England and Wales.
    Mr. Carr: The information asked for will not be available for a few weeks. I will send it to the hon. Member as soon as I can.

    Lanarkshire
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Labour the number of unemployed men, women, boys and girls in Lanarkshire as at the latest date; and what percentage of the Scottish total it represents.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: At 15th October, 1956, there were 11,068 men, 5,102 women, 335 boys, and 208 girls registered as unemployed in Lanarkshire. The total of 16,713 represented 34·2 per cent. of the total number registered as unemployed in Scotland.
    Mrs. Mann: Does the Minister recognise that that indicates that something ought to be done for Lanarkshire? Is he aware that we can give him particulars of firms which are complaining that they could extend their export trade very much indeed if they had factories available for the extension of their businesses? Would he look into this, if I send him particulars?
    Mr. Macleod: Of course, we will look into the facts and figures if the hon. Lady likes to send them to me. It is also true, as she knows, that the number of employees in Lanarkshire is 32 per cent. of the total number of employees in Scotland and, therefore, the unemployment figure that I have just given has to be taken into account in that setting. On the general question of providing factories, I think that my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland last night gave an admirable reply on the subject, in the debate that we had.

  SCOTLAND

    Calves (Gorgie Market, Edinburgh)
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has studied the evidence, sent to him by the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire, that calves a few days old are kept hungry and thirsty awaiting
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    slaughter in Gorgie market, Edinburgh; and whether he will take steps to investigate the matter.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. James Stuart): The allegations made in the newspaper report which was sent to me by the right hon. Member and by the hon. and gallant Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Sir A. Gomme-Duncan) have been brought to the notice of my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate, who is investigating them.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since I sent him that report, I have had information that this practice is common in other markets in Scotland; and that calves are actually sent 200 miles to markets in England, and the without ever having had one feed—die without ever once having tasted their mother's milk? I am told that the piteous cries of these calves, to which some people have become hardened by custom, are really shocking to those whose normal sympathies have not undergone this hardening process. Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree to have a general inquiry into whether this is the case with these calves?
    Mr. Stuart: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am not in disagreement in any way with the views which he has expressed, but there is the Protection of Animals (Scotland) Act, 1912, the penalties under which were increased in 1954. I can assure him, however, that we will prosecute our inquiries very genuinely in this matter.

    Bridge of Don Reconstruction (Footpaths)
    Mr. Spenceasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will provide an additional temporary footbridge during the reconstruction of the Bridge of Don.
    Mr. J. Stuart: I have arranged that both the existing footpaths on the bridge will be available for most of the remaining period of the work.
    Mr. Spence: Would my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the additional footpath will be made available reasonably soon? Is he aware that the existing footpath is only 2 ft. 6 in. wide, and that the channel for all traffic is only 18 ft. wide, and that, as a result, there is considerable risk of accidents at the present time?
    Mr. Stuart: It will now be possible to make both these footpaths immediately available, but during the latter period of the work, when the eastern half will be closed, it will be possible to widen the western one.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Is the Secretary of State aware of the many complaints about the dangerous condition of this bridge in the absence of the provision of the footbridge? Will he say when the work will begin, and how much it will cost in time and labour?
    Mr. Stuart: I am afraid that I do not know, offhand, how long it will take, but the work began last May.

    Radiotherapy Facilities, Western Region
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he is aware of the inadequate accommodation and equipment of the radiotherapy unit in the Western Infirmary, Glasgow; and when the new unit will be installed;
    (2) if he is satisfied with the present facilities and equipment for deep ray therapy treatment in the Western Region compared with the rest of Scotland; and what plans he has for their improvement.
    Mr. J. Stuart: I have agreed with the Western Regional Hospital Board that its facilities for radiotherapy should be improved as a matter of urgency. The Cancer Committee of the Scottish Health Services Council is advising on certain aspects of the matter; and I expect to have the advice of the Committee shortly. To meet the immediate needs of the Western Infirmary, the Regional Board has just replaced one obsolete therapy unit and has plans to provide two additional ones for next year.
    Mr. Hannan: While appreciating what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, and the decision made, may I ask him how long this matter has been going on, and when the decision was taken? Was it, indeed, taken only within the last week?
    Mr. Stuart: I have not the exact date with me, but I can assure the hon. Member that I do appreciate the need for this, and work will be put in hand as rapidly as possible. It is contemplated that this new department in Glasgow will be a counterpart of the Edinburgh Institute,
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    and that, between them, they will be able to treat the patients for whom the different institutes are the more suitable.

    Peat Bog (Acreage)
    Mr. Crouchasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the acreage of peat bog in Scotland.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The Geological Survey estimate is 1,625,000 acres, with at least two feet depth.
    Mr. Crouch: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the possibility of developing food production from these bogs by the use of the proper quantity of fertilisers and herbage seeds, and that this is the largest single unit we now have to rely upon for expansion? Has he, or have his representatives, seen the wonderful work done on the Birkhall Bog in Lancashire by Dr. Smith?
    Mr. Stuart: Yes. The answer to the second part of my hon. Friend's question is that we are aware of this work. There is, as my hon. Friend no doubt knows, a Scottish Peat Committee under the very able chairmanship of Sir Edward Apple-ton. That Committee estimates that perhaps rather less than a half of this bog is suitable for fuel purposes, and less for agricultural reclamation. There are, I would remind him, Government grants for the occupiers who decide to improve the land by the use of drainage, liming and fertilisers.

    Housing Subsidies (Representations)
    Mr. Hubbardasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities in Fife have protested against the proposed reduction in housing subsidies.
    Mr. J. Stuart: I have received representations from the two large burghs and from eleven small burghs in addition to those from Fife County Council.
    Mr. Hubbard: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the local authorities in Fife, as in Scotland generally, very much resent the failure of the Scottish Office to co-operate with them when imposing conditions or making arrangements for housing subsidies; and that these subsidies have, in fact, been introduced, and are

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    being introduced, without prior consultation with the local authorities, and that that is making the work impossible?
    Mr. Stuart: I did have consultations with the local authority associations on this subject.
    Mr. McInnesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of local authorities who have protested against the proposed reductions in housing subsidies giving the number of county councils, large burghs and small burghs, separately.
    Mr. J. Stuart: I have received representations against the proposed revision of housing subsidies from the councils of five counties, twelve large burghs and sixty-seven small burghs.
    Mr. McInnes: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any representations from the local authority association protesting against these reductions, and is he prepared to receive a deputation from that association?
    Mr. Stuart: As I have said, we had discussions and negotiations with them. I am, therefore, aware of their views, but I would point out that when I have given the figures for which I was asked this makes a total of 84 local authorities from a total of 230.

    Transfer of Functions (Departmental Staff)
    Mr. McInnesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of additional staff within his responsibility following the transfer of functions to the Scottish Office in the last two years.
    Mr. J. Stuart: The number of additional staff employed on account of functions transferred to my Departments during the last two years is 613.

    Oil Supplies (Restrictions)
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what instructions he has sent to education authorities with regard to economising in petrol and oil; and if he will give details.
    Mr. J. Stuart: I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the circular which was issued to education authorities on this matter on 7th November. Its purpose is to suggest how a 10 per cent. overall reduction may be achieved with the
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    minimum of disturbance to educational activities.
    Mr. Ross: Does the Secretary of State not realise that the public of Scotland think it is disgraceful that the sins of the Cabinet should be visited on the children of Scotland by interfering with their school transport? Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that we should like to know what the Cabinet are doing in saving fuel on their own transport?
    Mr. Stuart: I could tell the hon. Gentleman what I am doing in that matter. I would point out to him that in respect of areas where the transport is provided by public service vehicles, these vehicles are exempted from the reduction referred to in the instructions to garage proprietors, but in areas where school transport is provided otherwise, the instructions to garage proprietors asking them to give priority to central and local government vehicles should ensure that that transport continues to operate satisfactorily.
    Mr. Ross: Surely the Secretary of State realises that in areas like his own much of the transport is hired and is not public transport at all? Difficulties may well arise in such cases.
    Mr. Stuart: I am very well aware of the difficulties in my own area. I have mentioned the instructions issued to garage proprietors, and I hope that there will be no interruption in this service.
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what will be the effect on local government services of recently announced oil and petrol restrictions.
    Mr. J. Stuart: Generally it is expected that local government services will be able, without serious loss of efficiency, to effect the saving of 10 per cent. which other consumers have been asked to make The essential needs of the police, fire and public transport services will be met.
    Mr. Ross: Surely the Secretary of State realises that because of the policy of financial stringency forced upon local authorities, they are already economising as far as they can, and that it will nor. be a matter of saving but of imposing cuts in services, and vital services at that?
    Mr. Stuart: The vital services are reserved and exempted.

    Lung and Heart Disease (Treatment)
    Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what preparations have been made for the treatment of persons who after MMR examination in the anti-tuberculosis campaign are discovered to be suffering from serious lung or heart disease.
    Mr. J. Stuart: I am satisfied that the existing resources of the National Health Service are adequate for this purpose.

    Tuberculosis (Home Treatment)
    Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the growing concern among chest physicians in Scotland about the increasing tendency to have patients suffering from tuberculosis treated at home; and what action he proposes to take.
    Mr. J. Stuart: No representations on this score have been made to me.
    Dr. Mabon: Is the Secretary of State aware that the use of antibiotics and chemo-therapy in the treatment of persons suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis carries certain dangers, the chief one being the creation of drug-resistant bacilli by failure to administer the drugs regularly and without interruption? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that representations have been made to me and I have been asked to bring them to the notice of the House?
    Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that hospital treatment ensures that patients take these prescribed drugs regularly—[HON. MEMBERS: "The hon. Gentleman is reading."] Very well, I will try not to read—while domiciliary treatment has no such firm safeguard? In such a case a neglectful patient might find himself in a very serious position as a consequence. Can the—
    Mr. Speaker: That is enough for the right hon. Gentleman to consider at one time.
    Mr. Stuart: I think I have enough to digest for the moment. I must tell the hon. Gentleman that we will, of course, consider any representations which are made, but I have not received any. Many patients, as I am sure he will know from his greater knowledge of this subject, prefer treatment at home. The choice
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    between home and hospital treatment is essentially one for the doctor in charge of the patient.
    Dr. Mabon: May I have an assurance that since this is a matter of controversy—indeed, even of medical controversy—in view of the great campaign which is to be introduced in Scotland, the right hon. Gentleman will consider having a pilot survey of private and domicilary practice in this matter carried out by the Medical Research Council or some such body, and that meanwhile he will encourage—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] This is an important matter—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. It is a very important matter, I have no doubt, but it is also important to remember the rule that supplementary questions should not be read and should not be too long.
    Dr. Mabon: May I finish the point that I was trying to make, Mr. Speaker?
    Mr. Speaker: If it is not too long.
    Dr. Mabon: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I will try not to read it.
    The point on which I would like an assurance is that in the interval when this matter is in doubt the right hon. Gentleman will ensure that every effort and encouragement is given to all concerned, patients and doctors, to make use of the full hospital facilities in preference to domicilary treatment, which is very much a matter of controversy at the moment.
    Mr. Stuart: I am assured that there is no shortage of beds. As I have already said, some patients prefer to remain at home, and I, for one, do not necessarily blame them. It is a matter for the doctor. I have, of course, to be guided by the best expert advice furnished to me, and any representations sent to me will certainly be considered.

    Anti-Tuberculosis Campaign
    Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a full statement on the Department of Health anti-tuberculosis campaign for 1957.
    Mr. J. Stuart: Plans are now being completed for a new series of community surveys by mass radiography, more intensive and on a much larger scale than

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    hitherto, as part of a two-year campaign to combat respiratory tuberculosis in Scotland. I am not yet able to make a full statement, but in the meantime the House will be glad to know that the Corporation of Glasgow has accepted my invitation to conduct a city-wide survey as the opening stage of this campaign in March and April, 1957. With the assistance of my right hon. Friends, the Minister of Health, the Secretary of State for War and the Secretary of State for Air, about twenty-five mass radiography units and, it is hoped, staff on loan from England and Wales and from the Services, in addition to the ten normally at our disposal, are being made available for a period of five weeks.
    The local authorities of the other three cities and of many areas in the industrial belt are being offered facilities to arrange similar surveys at later stages of the campaign, and I hope that well over one million examinations by mass radiography will be carried out during the two-year period.
    Dr. Mabon: I am obliged.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    United Kingdom-Australian Trade Agreement
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a statement about the Anglo-Australia trade talks.
    The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. A. R. W. Low): My right hon. Friend made a statement yesterday.
    Mr. Bottomley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we have now had a chance of looking at the heads of agreement and the Annexes thereto? The 1932 Agreement made provision for tariffs and preferences to be arranged between Australia and Ceylon. It says that there is no difference as the result of a new agreement. Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether Ceylon was consulted or not? In Annex C, Australia is to supply 750,000 tons of wheat, or less, annually and we are to take it. Is it not a precedent that a group of private interests should determine whether or not an agreement entered into solemnly between two Governments should be re-negotiated or even brought to an end as a result of their action?
    Mr. Low: I think that some of the points which the right hon. Gentleman has made are matters for debate or detailed questions. The position of Ceylon is not altered at all by this Agreement. I thought this was made quite clear. As to the position of the millers, there seems to me to be nothing wrong or peculiar in ascertaining from the millers what their purchases are likely to amount to and in making use of that information in the course of an agreement.
    Mr. Bottomley: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. I asked whether the Government of Ceylon had been consulted. Surely the right hon. Gentleman can answer that. On the other point, is it not a fact that this is the first time in any negotiations between two Governments when a group of private interests are allowed to decide whether or not the agreement shall continue?
    Mr. Low: I have tried to make clear that the position of Ceylon is not in any way affected. As to the latter point, I have not been through all the former agreements to find out whether the right hon. Gentleman is right or wrong, but what I am clear about is that there is nothing wrong in what has happened, and nothing deleterious to the interests of this country.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Royalties on Patents (Foreign Currency)
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much foreign currency is earned and spent by payment of royalties on patents.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Harold Macmillan): Payments to non-sterling countries in respect of royalties, licences and purchase of proprietary rights, excluding royalties on literary, musical, dramatic and artistic works and films, and royalties paid by oil and mining companies operating overseas, amounted in the year ending 30th September, 1956, to just over £13 million. I regret that figures of earnings are not available.
    Mr. Bottomley: Is it possible to get figures of earnings so that we may see whether in fact we are still taking the lead as a country of inventors, with "know-how" to sell, and thus be able to derive some encouragement?
    Mr. Macmillan: I wish we could get the figures. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the only possible source for these figures is from the Exchange Control records, and they deal with outward payments. Though estimates might be made, there is no real machinery of which I know for getting the inward payments, which do not go through Exchange Control.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much of those royalties are payable in dollars?
    Mr. Macmillan: No, Sir, not without notice.

    Tourist Allowance (Dollar Area)
    Mr. Godman Irvineasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when currency will be made available for travel to Canada on a scale at least equal to that for travel to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I am afraid that this is not possible at the moment; but I shall continue to keep the question of a tourist allowance for the dollar area under review.

    Manual Workers (Payment by Cheque)
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that economical arrangements agreed between certain companies and their employees to pay wages by cheque, although working satisfactorily to all, have had to be abandoned on legal advice; and if he is prepared to examine the law to make possible economies of such a character.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport, North (Sir N. Hulbert) on 23rd October last.
    Mr. Woodburn: If the trade union movement and the employers' federations agree to a more scientific method of dealing with this problem of the weekly payment of wages, would it not be desirable, in order to avoid a great many of the robberies which now take place and the danger to people who have to transport this money along the streets, if
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    some such arrangement as this could be facilitated?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes; I am very glad indeed to hear what the right hon. Gentleman says. It is a rather complicated legal question. I am having it looked at as a matter of urgency. The Minister of Labour and I are in consultation about it. We should, of course, have to consult the Trades Union Congress and others. If it is at all possible, I personally should like to see a rather obsolete rule of the law done away with and a more modern method adopted.
    Mr. Bottomley: Can the Chancellor give an assurance that he will not bring about any change without full consultation with the Trades Union Congress? We want nothing to do with anything that reminds us of the Truck Act.
    Mr. Macmillan: That is just why I said in the first place I was glad to hear what the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) said, and why, if this matter were to be dealt with, it could only be by general agreement that it was in everybody's interests, with proper protection to secure that nothing went wrong.
    Mr. Osborne: Is not this new practice solid evidence of the high wages being earned under the Tory Administration?

    Government Expenditure (Economies)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects to make a statement detailing the further economies he proposes in order to cut down Government expenditure by £100 million.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I cannot yet name a date.
    Mr. Rankin: In view of the fact that the Prime Minister has squandered most of the Chancellor's present savings by his blunders in Egypt—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—would the Chancellor and the Leader of the House not get together and see if between them they could not find some person better fitted to be the first Minister of the Crown?
    Mr. Macmillan: I am sorry to hear the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. When he put down the Question, I thought he was trying to be helpful.
    Mr. Rankin: So the Question is.
    Mr. Macmillan: Now I observe he is merely trying to make a speech which he could have made at any time during the past six days.
    Mr. H. Wilson: In an entirely helpful attitude—like yesterday—ought I ask the Chancellor whether he still thinks that he will succeed in recording a figure for Government expenditure in this financial year which will be £100 million less than the Estimates as presented last spring?
    Mr. Macmillan: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will recall what I said, and have said throughout, I was trying to do. Taking the Estimates as they stood, not taking account of Supplementary Estimates on the one side or underspendings on the other, I hope to be able to achieve this figure.

    Members (Parliamentary Salaries)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to state for the latest convenient stated date the number of Members of Parliament who were not accepting their Parliamentary salaries; and what was the gross net saving to the Treasury.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: On 31st October, 1956, two Members were not accepting their Parliamentary salaries. The saving from the beginning of the current financial year until the end of last month was £892 3s. 5d.
    Mr. Lewis: Is the Chancellor aware that one individual included in those figures happens to be a director of forty companies, according to the Evening News? In view of the fact that quite a number of hon. Members opposite opposed this payment, may we take it that they oppose it in the House but willingly draw it when it comes to taking it from the Treasury?
    Mr. Macmillan: I am not prepared to discuss the names, and I think it would be quite wrong for me in this House—as would, I think, be universally approved—to give in reply to a Question of this kind the names of hon. Members and an indication whether they chose or did not chose to draw the salary to which they were entitled.

    Temporary Civil Servants (Retirement Gratuity)
    Mr. Gibsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the discontent among temporary civil servants at the delay in implementing the recommendations of the Royal Commission that the gratuity on retirement should be increased; and when he proposes to bring proposals before the House for its implementation.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I have received representations from the Staff Side of the National Whitley Council about this. I have already told the Staff Side that I sympathise with the merits of the case. I hope that it may be possible before very long to improve these gratuities, but I can give no undertaking.
    Mr. Gibson: In view of the fact that a number of these men between the ages of 45 and 60 are already under notice and others are expecting notice during next year, will the right hon. Gentleman speed up his consideration? Further, may I ask that, when he introduces the Bill which I understand is necessary to legalise these recommendations, he will make it retrospective to these men in the same way as the police award has just been made retrospective?
    Mr. Macmillan: I will certainly take all that into account.

    Arms Dump, Suez Canal Base (Value)
    Mr. Teelingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the fact that President Nasser values the British arms dump in the Suez Canal area, which he has seized, at £300 million, although it has been valued by Her Majesty's Government at £40 million, if he will therefore write the figure of £300 million off our debt to Egypt from the Second World War, thus covering the costs of our present expedition.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: Her Majesty's Government naturally reserve the right to claim adequate compensation for any damage sustained by their installations in the Suez Canal base. The means by which any such claims should be settled will require consideration at the appropriate time.
    Mr. Teeling: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the vast majority of people in this country who have any memories at all consider that we have done a tremendous amount for Egypt in the past, and deeply resent that after the Second World War they should have claimed anything from us for that war at all? Under the circumstances, will he take into consideration how very bitter people will feel if every penny we possess connected with Egypt is not kept by ourselves?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, but I think our major objectives will be obtained—and all this must be relevant—if we can, as a result of all this, get a lasting settlement and peace in the Middle East.

    Middle East
    Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will issue a White Paper dealing with the economic consequences of the Middle East crisis.
    Mr. H. Macmillan: I would refer the hon. Member to yesterday's debate in this House. No useful purpose would be served by a White Paper.
    Mr. Davies: Surely the right hon. Gentleman is not telling the British nation that the speech which he delivered yesterday is an analysis of the economic consequences? May I ask him to reconsider that Answer, in view of the fact that 5·2 per cent. of our export trade is to the Middle East, that our oil is in jeopardy, and that this morning the Financial Times has said that our only increase in trade has been 5 per cent. in volume—that is all—over the last three years? British business men, in the interests of Britain, should know from the information available to the Chancellor what the position is as regards oil, particularly as it affects the steel industry, and especially our pottery industry.
    Mr. Macmillan: All those are very important points, but I do not think the laying of a White Paper would be of any assistance.
    Mr. H. Wilson: But, quite seriously—[Laughter.]—this is no laughing matter—does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that there is very great concern in the country about the economic consequences of the past fortnight, and is he not aware that his very perfunctory speech
    740
    last night was an acute disappointment to people all over the country who very much want to know what the position is? Since he answered only one of the very many questions which hon. Members put to him last night, questions which are being asked all over the country, will he not think again and either make a statement at the earliest opportunity or present a White Paper as my hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) asks?
    Mr. Macmillan: Of course, I, or my colleagues according to the different subjects, will make statements whenever it is possible to do so; but if there were to be a real review of all the economic consequences, then I think we should take account of what would have been the consequences had universal war broken out.
    Mr. Dugdale: If the right hon. Gentleman has not himself got the necessary information, will he consider publishing as a White Paper the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), which explained the whole situation admirably?
    Mr. Macmillan: I understand that in accordance with the beneficent rule under which we live, that is available in a document called HANSARD.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Private Street Works, Newcastle-under-Lyme
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when an engineering inspector of his Department will visit Newcastle-under-Lyme for the purpose of inspecting the three private streets in respect of which the Newcastle-under-Lyme Borough Council has renewed its applications for loan sanction; and when he expects to be in a position to notify his decisions about these applications for approval of private street works.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. J. Enoch Powell): An inspection of these three streets was made on 9th November and my right hon. Friend hopes to be able to let the council know his decision within a week or so.

    Synthetic Detergents (Committee's Report)
    Mr. Gibsonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what steps he is taking on the Report of the Committee which he appointed to examine and report on the effects of the increasing use of synthetic detergents; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Powell: My right hon. Friend hopes to be able to make a statement before the end of the year.
    Mr. Gibson: Without being in any way alarmist, may I ask whether the Minister appreciates that there are serious doubts about the effects of the use of these detergents in the home; and secondly, that the sewerage authorities are having considerable trouble, particularly in London, with disposal at the outfall stations? Is the Minister considering adopting the recommendations in the Report that an advisory committee of experts might be set up to study the subject and advise his Department?
    Mr. Powell: Perhaps the hon. Member will await my right hon. Friend's statement.

  HOUSING

    Party Walls (Weatherproofing)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government under what authority a local authority is enabled to carry out weatherproofing of party walls after demolition of adjacent buildings.
    Mr. Powell: The duty to undertake demolition, like all other statutory duties, includes authority to carry out ancillary works.
    Mr. Awbery: What is the Order under which local authorities have power to do this? That is the question I have asked.
    Mr. Powell: This is one of many matters ancillary to the demolition of houses under statutory powers which are covered by those powers.
    Mr. Awbery: In view of the misunderstanding among local authorities on this matter, will the Parliamentary Secretary make it clear that they have power to put these walls right?
    Mr. Powell: I hope that this Question and Answer will put that misunderstanding right.
    Mr. Nicholson: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a good deal of drip on the walls of the party opposite?

    Requisitioned Houses (Purchase)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will announce his proposals regarding the assistance to be given to local authorities in the purchase of requisitioned houses.
    Mr. Powell: I have nothing to add to what I said to the House on 7th November.
    Mr. Collins: Is the Minister aware that on that occasion he said—at least, by implication—that the Minister's proposals had been delayed pending the announcement of the Government's proposals with regard to the Rent Bill? Since that obstacle is out of the way, will he not now see that general instructions are issued to local authorities, because they badly need them, to carry out the Government's instructions with regard to requisitioned houses?
    Mr. Powell: Certainly, but I also made it clear that no local authority is at present held up in its operations by not knowing the final basis on which subsidy will be based.

    Housing Repairs and Rents Act, 1954 (Repaired Houses)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Housing Local Government his estimate of the approximate number of houses repaired up to a recent date under the Housing Repairs and Rents Act, 1954.
    Mr. Powell: There is insufficient statistical information on which to base a reliable estimate.
    Mr. Allaun: Does the Minister not agree that precious little repair work has been done? Is it not the case that few of the 5½ million tenants whose rents are now likely to be raised will benefit by a single extra pennyworth of repairs?
    Mr. Powell: Oh, no. Even though statistical evidence is not available, it is quite clear that in a great many cases advantage has been taken of the provisions of the 1954 Act.
    Mr. Lindgren: Would the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that had the 1954 Act been effective, the legislation which is now contemplated would not have been required?
    Mr. Powell: The hon. Member is anticipating the debate on the Rent Bill

  EGYPT
  Mr. Lewisasked the Prime Minister whether he will immediately call a conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers to discuss the Egyptian situation and arrange for a meeting to follow with the President of the United States of America, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, France, Israel and Egypt.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Anthony Eden): I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the explanation of the Government's views made in the course of the debate on the Amendment to the Gracious Speech on 8th November.
  Mr. Lewis: In view of the fact that we cannot get satisfactory replies from any of the Ministers, I find that it is hopeless and useless to put any further supplementary questions.
  The Prime Minister: For which relief,
  much thanks.
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister whether he will give an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will refrain from engaging in negotiations with Egypt on the Suez dispute before British and French forces have been withdrawn from Egyptian territory.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Does that mean that the Prime Minister adheres to his original purpose of trying to use the occupation of Egyptian territory as a way of negotiating under duress, in which case, he is violating the Charter again?
  The Prime Minister: It does not mean anything of the kind. The hon. Member ought by now to know that negotiation implies some willingness of both sides to meet.
  Mr. Gaitskell: While it is fairly certain that Egypt would not be willing to negotiate on the Suez Canal question so
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  long as British and French forces are in Egypt, can the Prime Minister say how he proposes, nevertheless, that negotiation on the Canal issue should be resumed between Egypt and the Canal Users' Association?
  The Prime Minister: That is not the Question on the Paper. I was asked what my attitude to direct negotiations with Egypt was. I replied, "No, Sir." The right hon. Gentleman knows that the future of the Canal is one of the matters at present being handled by the United Nations and one of the matters which my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary has been discussing in Washington.
  Mr. P. Noel-Baker: May we take it from what the Prime Minister has just said that the Government now intend to support the negotiations, when they are started again in the United Nations, on the basis of the Secretary-General's letter of 24th October?
  The Prime Minister: That goes far beyond the Question on the Paper. I should like to see that written down.
  Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will now publish a White Paper giving the account of the talks with the Government of France leading to British and French intervention in Egypt.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Douglas Dodds-Parker): As my right hon. and learned Friend has stated several times in this House recently, confidential discussions with other Governments must remain confidential.
  Mr. Davies: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Government would have the 100 per cent. support of the Opposition and of millions of people who voted for them if the interests of Britain were in jeopardy and they believed that a war was just? Does he not realise that this country is being accused all over the world of collusion with the French? If it is not true, it is the duty of the Government to let the people know the truth, and to publish the facts.
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: If the hon. Member has not read the speeches made on 31st October, I will see that a copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT is sent to him.
  Mr. Paget: Does the hon. Gentleman regard as confidential conversations which have already been published in both the Observer and The Times?
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: Yes, I do, because I do not say that they are accurately published, even in those reputable newspapers.

  WAR DISABLED PENSIONERS (DEPARTMENTAL RESPONSIBILITIES)
  Mr. Simmonsasked the Prime Minister what liaison machinery he has established between the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance and the Ministry of Labour and National Service to coordinate their responsibilities for the war disabled.
  The Prime Minister: Local liaison is carried out by the War Pensioners' Welfare Service. There is central coordination on rehabilitation and resettlement questions through the Standing Committee on the Rehabilitation and Resettlement of Disabled Persons; and I am informed that the normal machinery of consultation works effectively over the whole field.
  Mr. Simmons: Is the Prime Minister aware that there is a feeling among ex-Service men that the interests of the ex-Service man are nowadays submerged in the interests of the rather larger Department? Will the Prime Minister, as an ex-Service man of the First World War, look at this matter personally?
  The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman has some evidence or would like to discuss this matter with me, I shall, of course, be available to him.

  PRIME MINISTER (PUBLIC RELATIONS ADVISER)
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the relinquishment of appointment of his adviser on public relations.
  The Prime Minister: A notice was issued from 10, Downing Street on 7th November. I have nothing to add to it.
  Mr. Hughes: Could the Prime Minister not tell us whether, in the excitement of the moment in 10, Downing Street, it is not the case that the wrong man resigned?
  The Prime Minister: May I comfort the hon. Gentleman with the assurance that in the recent fortnight there have been no "excitements of the moment" in 10, Downing Street?

  OPERATIONS, EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN
  Mr. Wiggasked the Prime Minister whether he will move to appoint a Select Committee to report on the events leading up to the recent operations in the Eastern Mediterranean.
  The Prime Minister: I have studied the remarks on this subject made by the hon. Gentleman in his speech last Thursday. The answer is "No, Sir."
  Mr. Wigg: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that it is a major British interest to establish, by means either of a Select Committee or of a Royal Commission, the nature of the events which led up to the recent crisis, if only to establish that there has not been a conspiracy or collusion, as is alleged in detail in many organs of the American Press? [An HON. MEMBER: "And in the British Press."] Would the right hon. Gentleman not realise that it is also probably necessary to widen such an inquiry to cover the nature of the recent operations, particularly in the Port Said area, for they reveal efficiency on the part of the Royal Air Force but, so far as the Army is concerned, almost complete and utter chaos?
  The Prime Minister: In reply to the last part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, I cannot for one moment accept that so far as the Army is concerned the operations reveal almost complete and utter chaos. The action of one parachute brigade, without preliminary bombardment, in fulfilling its task was a military achievement, whatever else one may think of it, almost unsurpassed in the annals of any Army. In regard to the first part of the supplementary question, my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary dealt with

  747
  it at considerable length in a speech of 31st October, to which I would ask the hon. Member to refer.
  Mr. Paget: Does the right hon. Gentleman not at least think that some investigation is necessary as to why the military operations were so desperately slow and some explanation as to why the right hon. Gentleman suddenly lost his nerve in the middle of the operation?
  The Prime Minister: Upon the last part of that question, it must be left to others than myself to pronounce. As regards the first part, I have no comment to make about slowness, except that the hon. and learned Member can measure distances on the map as well as I can.
  Air Commodore Harvey: Will my right hon. Friend ask the party opposite whether they are now complaining about the slowness of the operation?

  MIDDLE EAST (PRIME MINISTER'S BROADCAST)
  Mr. Lewisasked the Prime Minister why his office is engaged in sending out propaganda published by the Conservative and Unionist Central Office, London, S.W.1; and whether he will take such action as will prevent civil servants and State money being used for this purpose.
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman sent me some letters from his constituents about the situation in the Middle East and asked me if I would send him an individual reply to each constituent which he could forward to them. In reply the hon. Gentleman was sent the necessary number of copies of the text of my Ministerial broadcast of 3rd November, which afforded a statement in convenient form of the policy of the Government. These copies contained no matter save the transcript of my broadcast. They were printed by the Conservative and Unionist Central Office.
  Mr. Lewis: Why?
  The Prime Minister: I imagine that the hon. Member would be pleased that that would save Government expenditure. In any event that affords no foundation for the suggestion made by the hon. Member in his Question.
  Mr. Lewis: Are we to take it, therefore, that the Prime Minister's new policy is to save a few pounds by having the Conservative Central Office publish his propaganda speeches and to spend a few million pounds by carrying out this action in Suez? May I ask him—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Lewis.
  Mr. Lewis: May I therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will give an assurance that in future, if that is Government policy, such speeches will be printed by the Stationery Office or Government Departments while leaving the false propaganda to go out from the Tory Central Office, as is the usual custom?
  The Prime Minister: Quite clearly it was only a transcript of what I said on the B.B.C. but I will ensure that in future it is done at Government expense, on B.B.C. paper.
  Mr. H. Wilson: Since the Conservative Central Office seems to have been disseminating copies of the Prime Minister's latest broadcast, will be arrange for it also to publish and distribute copies of the broadcast which he made at the beginning of August, in which he described in such graphic terms the effect on the nation's economy and that of Western Europe of a closure of the Suez Canal and a denial to us of oil supplies, and add to that his comment on how far he thinks that those warnings are now justified?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, I stand by the broadcast, and the right hon. Gentleman and anybody else can read it when they like.
  Commander Donaldson: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that one of the most valuable pieces of paper issued as a document was the transcript of the speech of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell)? It was very helpful to the country and informative to the people and supported our policy.

  UNITED NATIONS (GOVERNMENT POLICY)
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister to what extent his declaration on 20th August, 1951, to the effect that there

  749
  was no alternative to the rule of law and that the United Nations was the only way and the world's last hope of peace still represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister: It remains the policy of Her Majesty's Government to build up the United Nations as a force for peace and as an effective instrument for the enforcement of the rule of law. It is their hope that the present Middle East crisis will result in a stronger United Nations capable of enforcing the resolutions which it adopts.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Does the Prime Minister's reply mean that he believes that he is strengthening the United Nations in the rule of law by committing aggression in violation of the Charter?
  The Prime Minister: If the hon. Member looks at the Charter, he will find that there were always intended to be provisions to make decisions of the United Nations militarily effective. If what we have done results in that, it will be a gain to the whole world.
  Mr. Gaitskell: What part of the Charter provides that nations shall decide on their own whether they make anything effective? Is it not clear that the whole essence of the Charter is that we accept collective decisions made by the United Nations?
  The Prime Minister: Equally certain is the opinion of this nation that if we had waited until the United Nations acted, the fire would not have been put out.
  Mr. Biggs-Davison: Will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister inform hon. Members opposite whether there is any section of the Charter which says that great nations should do nothing while war spreads?

  ARABIC BROADCASTS, CYPRUS (SCRIPTS)
  Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make available in the Library copies of the translations of the scripts of the broadcasts in Arabic, made from the Middle East Arab Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, on 28th, 29th and 30th October; and upon whose authority these broadcasts were made.
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: I presume that the right hon. Member is referring to the Near East Arab Broadcasting Station, a commercial broadcasting station owned by the Near East Association Limited, a company registered in Cyprus. The station was operated by its owners until 1500 hours Greenwich Mean time on 30th October, when its broadcasting facilities were requisitioned by the Governor of Cyprus on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. For translations of material broadcast before requisition, I suggest that the right hon. Member should get into touch with the London manager of the company. On 30th October, after requisition, an Arabic version of the Prime Minister's speech in the House on that day was transmitted to the station for relay to the Middle East on the authority of Her Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Edwards: In view of the fact that on 28th October transmissions from this broadcasting station indicated that an attack was to be made on Egypt, can the Joint Under-Secretary say upon whose authority that was done? Can be obtain copies of the transcript for the information of hon. Members?
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the London manager of the commercial company. His address is 17, Victoria Street.
  Mr. Edwards: The London manager disclaims responsibility. The Foreign Office passes the fault to the Colonial Office, and the Colonial Office says the responsibility belongs to the Foreign Office. Can we have some clarity about this?
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: I will certainly look into that matter.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: Is the hon. Member now saying that this broadcast was made without the authority of Her Majesty's Government or any of the Ministers? If it was with their authority, is not my right hon. Friend right and fair in asking that hon. Members should have copies made available to them?
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: The reply is quite clear. Until 1500 hours Greenwich Mean Time on 30th October the broadcasting facilities were operated by the commercial

  751
  company. It was established in 1948 under a licence granted by the Governor of Cyprus.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: Was this broadcast made with or without the authority of Her Majesty's Government?
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: It was made by the commercial company over which Her Majesty's Government have no authority.
  Mr. Griffiths: I am asking a very plain question. Was this broadcast made with or without the approval of Her Majesty's Government?
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: This broadcast was made by the commercial company which has been operating in the Middle East since 1948.
  Mr. M. Lindsay: Was not the purpose of these broadcasts to persuade Egyptian Service men to leave their posts to save the lives of British Service men? Should not the Opposition therefore be thoroughly in support of this step?
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: I think that my hon. Friend is referring to broadcasts made after 1500 hours Greenwich Mean Time on 30th October.
  Mr. Edwards: Is the hon. Member not aware that I am asking about the position prior to the establishment of the "Voice of Britain"?
  On 28th and 29th October, broadcasts of a Dr. Goebbels type were made from this station on British property. Can we not have a copy of the transcript?
  Mr. Dodds-Parker: I will see whether I can find one. I have not seen that such a broadcast was made on those days.

  PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Tuberculosis (National Assistance Allowances)
    Mrs. Mannasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if, in view of increased cost of living, he will increase the grants to patients suffering from tuberculosis, and their dependants.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Miss Edith Pitt): The hon. Lady will be aware that the current National Assistance Regulations provide
    752
    for appreciably higher allowances for persons who have suffered a loss of income in order to undergo treatment for respiratory tuberculosis.
    Mrs. Mann: I am aware of that, of course, but would the hon. Lady convey to the Minister the fact that a great deal of apprehension is felt in medical circles because patients are leaving the hospitals before their time in order to engage in industry merely because their dependants are inadequately provided for? As in Scotland we are about to undertake a large campaign, would she try to have the allowances increased before we start on our campaign, if possible?
    Miss Pitt: The hon. Lady will be aware, I think, that the allowance is already in each case for single persons and married couples 20s. above the ordinary scale of National Assistance. As my right hon. Friend said yesterday in reply to a Question by the right hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Isaacs), the National Assistance rates are a matter for the Board. It is for the Board to initiate any recommendations for an increase, but it does, of course, watch the position very closely.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he has any statement to make on business?
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): Yes, Sir. Following discussions through the usual channels, arrangements have been made for the debate on the Geneva tariff negotiations tomorrow to take place on a Government Motion to approve the White Paper. This is thought to be a more convenient way of handling the debate.
We shall afterwards take the three Orders which I announced in the business statement last Thursday. The general debate will cover these Orders and they will, it is hoped, be obtained afterwards without very much discussion.
Mr. H. Wilson: Will the terms of the Motion be drawn in such a way that it will be possible for hon. Members to debate the recent discussions on tariffs and preferences with the Australian Government, about which there is considerable interest and, I think, a little

753
concern in all parts of the House? Will the right hon. Gentleman take note that, so far, the House has not had an opportunity of debating the transactions of the Government at the conference on the revision of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, with all the changes made there, and that at some time or another the House should certainly have an opportunity of debating that Agreement?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. The Motion was tabled last night and should be on the Order Paper. It relates to the three Orders to which I made reference last week, namely, the Import Duties (Geneva Agreement) Order, the Silk Duties (No. 2) Order, and the Additional Import Duties (No. 3) Order relating to Fruit Stocks and Kentia Palms. I do not see, at first sight, that it would cover the Agreement with the Australian Government.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  QUEEN'S SPEECH

    DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS
    [SIXTH DAY]
    Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [6th November]:
    That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as follows:
    Most Gracious Sovereign.
    We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament,—[Mr. Vane.]
    Question again proposed.
    3.34 p.m.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd): The Gracious Speeches, one proroguing Parliament and the other which we are now debating, contained many references to colonial affairs. It may, therefore, be of some value to the House if I intervene at this stage in the debate.
    I should like, straight away, to make some observations on Cyprus, whose future and whose problems figure in both Gracious Speeches. Recent events in the Mediterranean have done more than any words can do to demonstrate the vital importance of Cyprus in the Middle East. Our policy continues, and must continue, to be influenced by this essential strategic need. Once law and order is restored it is our intention to press on with the introduction of a new and liberal constitution.
    Yesterday, I received from Lord Radcliffe his constitutional report. The Government will study his recommendations with all possible speed. They will be published in due course and the Government will make a further announcement when those recommendations have been fully considered. I am sure that I am voicing the feelings of right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House when I thank Lord Radcliffe for having so readily made available his legal and practical experience. I myself know at first hand how, for the past few months, he has devoted his whole time and thought to this task, both here and in Cyprus. I, as Secretary of State, and

    755
    my colleagues are deeply indebted to him for producing comprehensive proposals in so short a time. Through his help we hope to be able to offer the people of Cyprus a constitution which will give them a wide measure of self-government while safeguarding the interests of all communities.
    Meanwhile, our first task must remain to bring terrorism to an end. Security forces have been maintaining relentless pressure on Grivas and his gangs. To those forces and to Sir John Harding and his administration I should like to express the sincere thanks of the Government. In recent weeks operations have been carried out in the Kyrenia hills and in the mountain ranges. They have had good results and have brought nearer the day of the destruction of E.O.K.A. and the day when the people of Cyprus can turn away from the nightmare of E.O.K.A. and set their eyes towards a brighter future of orderly political development. Then Cyprus will take her place in the natural progress of all British Colonial Territories towards self-government.
    Now I should like to mention the position of Malta, to which reference was made in the Gracious Speech proroguing Parliament. The importance of Malta as a base has also been much emphasised by recent events, and the Government are very grateful for the co-operation of the Maltese Government in these matters. As Mr. Mintoff said in his Budget speech last week, the relations between our two Governments are good.
    Of course, as hon. Members on both sides of the House know, there have been strains over financial and economic questions, but I hope that with the assistance of the Economic Commission, whose interim report will be ready for publication shortly, solutions can be found which will lead to a smoother economic relationship on the lines envisaged in the Report of the Round Table Conference.
    On the question of the constitutional proposals at that Conference, to which reference was also made in the Gracious Speech proroguing Parliament, we hope to have talks shortly with the Maltese Prime Minister, talks on a draft constitutional scheme. As soon as agreement
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    has been reached on that scheme we propose to introduce the necessary legislation into this House. When the Bill has passed all its stages the Maltese Prime Minister intends to hold new general elections in Malta.
    Mr. James Griffiths: As the right hon. Gentleman will know, some concern has been expressed at the fact that while reference to Malta was made in the Gracious Speech proroguing Parliament no reference to Malta was made in the Gracious Speech opening this Session. Will the right hon. Gentleman now give an assurance that the legislation on Malta will be brought before this House during this Session?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: It is not usual, when conversations have yet to take place, to announce as a definite fact that such and such legislation will be introduced, but it is our intention loyally to abide by the decision of Parliament. As soon as the draft scheme has been mutually agreed, Her Majestys Government in the United Kingdom will take the necessary action. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there was nothing sinister in the failure to refer to that in the Gracious Speech.
    To turn to quite another part of the world, the Speech proroguing Parliament and the Gracious Speech which opened this Session both referred to our intentions in the Caribbean. An Order in Council will be laid before Parliament in this Session to provide for the constitution of the new British Caribbean Federation. This will cover the establishment of a Federal Government, a Federal Legislature, a Federal Supreme Court and other necessary federal authorities. It will also provide for the making of a grant up to £1 million towards the cost of the new Federal capital and provision for budgetary assistance to the Federation during its first ten years to enable it to help with grants those territories whose resources are insufficient to enable them to defray their administrative expenses.
    Four key officials have already been appointed and have taken up office—the Federal Secretary, the Federal Finance Officer, the Federal Attorney-General and the Federal Establishment Officer. I know that the good wishes of all of us, irrespective of party, are with these gentlemen on the threshold of their new and thrilling responsibilities.

    757
    A commission appointed to make recommendations on the siting of the Federal capital, which is a very vexed and difficult problem, has now completed its task. A decision will have to be taken on the matter by the Standing Federation Committee, which will meet in January of next year. Also, as right hon. and hon. Members will remember, on problems of trade and tariffs, which caused some difficulty in our recent conference, a commission has been appointed and has already started work.
    Much still remains to be done in the Caribbean. Certain measures are required to be taken locally which will have to await the coming into force of the Order in Council and the appointment of the first Governor-General, which appointment, it is hoped, it will be possible to make in the autumn of next year. Elections for the Federal Senate and the House of Representatives are to take place in the first quarter of 1958.
    The British Caribbean Federation Act of this year received a very favourable reception on both sides of the House, in the country and in the Caribbean, and I know that I am expressing a hope which will be fulfilled when I say that we hope that the Order in Council, which will be laid this Session, will receive equally prompt and friendly treatment.
    I pass now to East Africa, and I should like to say a few words of very great importance on Kenya. Kenya is on the edge of the Middle East whirlpool and deeply involved in all that goes on in the Suez Canal and elsewhere. As even those critics of Kenya who have been very vocal will agree, Kenya has recently shown very welcome signs of stability, of capacity for working together and of economic strength. After four years of brutal challenge to peace and orderly evolution by the Man Mau conspiracy, the shadow is now lifting.
    I am very glad and thankful to say to the House that this morning, in Nairobi, Sir Evelyn Baring has announced the withdrawal of all military forces in Kenya from active operations and the assumption by the Administration and the police in Kenya of full responsibility for law and order throughout Kenya. This is very heartening news. On some other occasion I should like to say something more on what I feel about the courage, sagacity
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    and patience of the Governor and of many who have been working with him in recent years.
    Mr. F. J. Bellenger: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to convey to the House, in amplification of that statement, that, in consequence of the withdrawal of these military forces from active operations, a large number of our troops who have been serving there will now be withdrawn to this country?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: That is quite another matter. I am dealing with the question of the emergency in Kenya and the use of troops in Kenya. It is not for me to say anything about the disposition of the Armed Forces of the Crown. I was saying, as to the military force, that the task will be in future for the Administration and the police, which is very heartening news.
    Mr. R. T. Paget: Do we now take it that martial law has come to an end and that the police will be responsible to the law and not to any executive authority?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I do not accept what the hon. and learned Member has said. He and I have had many crossings of swords about the rôle of the police in recent years, but I am coming to other aspects of the situation in Kenya and it might be more profitable if the hon. and learned Member waited until I have finished my brief passage on Kenya. I will certainly answer any relevant questions as far as I am able.
    In thanking the Governor of Kenya and all the Administration, the thanks of the House should go to General Lathbury for his skill and ingenuity which has undoubtedly brought the military operations to an earlier solution than at first seemed likely.
    At the end of 1954, over 8,000 active terrorists were at large in Kenya and their butchery of fellow-Africans who refused to share their evil ways was at its height. Now the remnants left number only a few hundreds. The Africans in the Central Province of Kenya are returning with relief and energy to the constructive tasks of peace. All the problems of the emergency are not yet solved and I think that it is an answer to the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) when I say that the Governor of Kenya

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    is still responsible for the peaceful return to society of over 30,000 detainees and about 10,000 people imprisoned for Mau Mau offences.
    The process whereby those who have been duped by Mau Mau are released from its curse has now been effectively developed. In increasing numbers they are now returning to an outlook on life which fits them to play their part in a peaceful society to which they can be returned without causing anxiety to their law-abiding compatriots. Already, 30,000 have passed through this process by which we hope we shall continue to redeem as many as possible of the remainder until we can say with confidence that the emergency has really passed away.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the figures of those who are still left in the camps?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I have already said that 10,000 were imprisoned for Mau Mau offences and that were about 30,000 detainees.
    As to the constitutional position in Kenya, the multiracial structure of government in Kenya has stood the test of a General Election in Kenya, and has, I am thankful to say, emerged strengthened from that test. I am also very glad to be able to announce that today, in Kenya, constitutional changes have been made and published to enable the Governor to appoint one additional African Minister and one additional European Minister. He is also inviting the Liwali of the Coast, the leader of the Arabs, to participate fully in the work of the Council of Ministers.
    Under these changes the Governor is also today appointing two additional African representative members to the Legislative Council, one to represent some of the peoples of the Nyanza Province and one to represent the Wakamba, whose staunchness in the emergency deserves the highest praise. This is striking proof that under our own system, and despite the ordeal through which Kenya has passed, it is possible for various races and peoples to work together for the achievement of a better life.
    I should like to say a few words about Central Africa. We have, as from last
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    week, a new Prime Minister of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland. I am sure that the House will wish to join with me in sending to the retired Prime Minister, Lord Malvern, our best wishes for a long and happy retirement. I, all my colleagues, and, I know, many others, hope that retirement is not the right word, and that public affairs, both in the Federation and in this country, will continue for many more years to benefit from his unique combination of realism and idealism, and the wisdom he has gained through long experience.
    I should like, also on behalf of my colleagues, to do publicly what we have done privately, to welcome, as the new Prime Minister, Sir Roy Welensky. We wish prosperity and success to the Federation under his leadership. No doubt hon. Members will have seen what Sir Roy said recently about the Suez dispute:
    "The Federation aligns itself fully with Australia and New Zealand in their support of the Anglo-French action. It was with a feeling of relief that I learnt of Britain's decision to take firm action."
    Sir Roy takes over at a time when there are difficulties, but also great possibilities and hopes in the Federation. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have urged me from time to time to pay an early visit to the Federation. I have long been anxious to do this, and I am glad to be able to say that I hope to do so during the Christmas Recess.
    Mr. James Johnson: Will the right hon. Gentleman say a word about the emergency in Northern Rhodesia? Is it his intention to end the emergency soon or to wait for the inquiry until the emergency is over?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The hon. Gentleman has displayed an active and understandable interest in the situation in the Copperbelt, and I should like to thank him for the continued help he gives the Government and all others concerned by sensible criticism and by useful information. I hope that will not do him any harm with his colleagues.
    Mr. Johnson: Ignoring that comment, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to answer my question?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I was about to get on to the business side of my observations on the Copperbelt, quite apart from the purely courteous ones. I know that many

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    hon. Members are uneasy about the declaration of emergency in the Copper-belt. As I told the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson), I am satisfied that the Acting Governor took the necessary steps. He is to be congratulated on taking those steps neither before they were necessary nor too late to prevent serious disorder and loss of life.
    Now as to the future. It will be necessary to keep away from the Copperbelt for some time those who are seeking to foment disorders. However, I hope it will soon be possible to allow the majority of them, at any rate, to go to their villages in the rural areas.
    Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether that announcement applies to the 70 trade union leaders who are representative of the African Mineworkers Union, and who have been deported from the Copperbelt to a distant village?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Trade union leaders, like everybody else, are subject to the ordinary processes of law and cannot be treated differently. I am conscious of the need to encourage trade union activities and we are anxious to do so, but there is always a danger in territories such as this that politics, and, indeed, sedition, can be introduced into so-called industrial organisations, with disastrous consequences for the dupes of the leaders.
    Mr. S. O. Davies: Why does not the right hon. Gentleman answer the question?
    Mr. J. Griffiths: The Secretary of State knows that it has been the desire not only in this House but, for example, of my own trade union, the National Union of Mineworkers, to promote a better understanding between the two great trade unions in the Copperbelt, the Northern Rhodesian African Mine-workers' Trade Union and the Northern Rhodesian European Mineworkers' Trade Union. Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that these emergency regulations are not being used to intervene in a peaceful industrial dispute? It is important that the Secretary of State should bear in mind that this causes anxiety, and will affect the attitude of people, who have been helpful both to
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    him and to his predecessors in promoting a better understanding between the two unions.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I am aware of the need not only to see that happens but also that it is made clear. I can give the right hon. Gentleman a categorical assurance that there is no intention to use this, or any other power, to interfere in legitimate trade union activities or in legitimate differences between one union and another.
    Mr. Davies: But the right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson).
    Mr. J. Johnson: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the only people he is now holding in Mumbwa Camp, in Northern Rhodesia, are all trade union leaders? None of them is a politician, a member of the African National Congress?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: It does not follow necessarily that by failing to belong to a political body one ceases to be engaged in a seditious purpose. I accept the view of the Governor that the people now detained should be detained in the interests of the peace of the Copperbelt and of Northern Rhodesia. But, as I have said, I hope it will be possible for the majority of them to go to their villages in the rural areas.
    Now I will pass to the Far East. While the House was in recess many things happened to which references have also been made in the Gracious Speech. First, in the case of Malaya the Constitutional Commission there has completed its work over the Federation of Malaya. It is now on its way to Rome, where it will consider its recommendations and write its report. I hope to receive the report early in the new year, so that it will be possible to consider it and to work out the new constitution for the Federation during the spring, and to introduce and pass a Bill through Parliament conferring independence by the target date of August, 1957.
    Meanwhile, the chief Minister of the Federation Tunku Abdul Rahman, accompanied by Colonel Lee, the Minister of Finance, is coming to London before Christmas primarily to discuss financial matters. I, and, I am sure, many of my colleagues on both sides of the House,

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    look forward to renewing the friendly contacts made with him during the London Conference at the beginning of this year.
    A word about Singapore. I should like to congratulate the Chief Minister of Singapore, Mr. Lim Yew Hock, and his colleagues on their courage in tackling firmly the problem of Chinese Communist subversion in Singapore. I congratulate, also, the Singapore Ministers on the patience and firmness with which they have dealt with the riots instigated by the Communists when Ministers decided to restore discipline in the Chinese Middle Schools. Fresh from his vigorous action in this matter, Mr. Lim Yew Hock is coming to London in a few weeks' time, before Christmas, to discuss with me arrangements for a conference on the future constitution of Singapore, which it is intended should be held early in the new year.
    If the House will bear with me for a few moments longer, I want to make one or two other observations about the Colonial Territories.
    Mr. Stan Awbery: Is the Minister going to meet Mr. Lim Yew Hock when he arrives in this country next month to discuss the constitution of Singapore?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I shall meet him with enthusiasm and have many discussions with him. He is coming principally because he thinks it a good idea, as I do, that we should meet as soon as possible.
    A word about Nigeria. I had hoped that the Nigerian Conference would have assembled in London on 19th September of this year. The Tribunal of Inquiry into allegations that have been made about the connection between the Premier of the Eastern Region of Nigeria and the African Continental Bank has necessitated a postponement, but, nonetheless, I am anxious to have this Conference as soon as possible.
    On 28th September I suggested to the five Nigerian Governments, the Federal Government, the three Regional and the Southern Cameroons, that the Conference should meet in London late in January. All agreed to this except the Eastern Region, which suggested that the Conference
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    should be in December and should be held in Nigeria. Now the Tribunal has taken longer than was expected, through no fault of its own. It aims to finish public hearings this week.
    I believe that its report is unlikely to be completed much this side of Christmas, so I cannot promise or expect publication before the new year. The Eastern Region Government have now intimated that they may not be able to commit themselves to a definite date for the Conference until the outcome of the Tribunal is known. Also, the views of at least one other Government may also be changed.
    There are difficulties, of course, in arranging at short notice a conference of this magnitude concerning the destinies of 32 million people, but I very much hope that we shall soon come to an agreement on the timing of this conference. I am now in confidential communication about the position with the Governments concerned.
    There is one other matter of very great importance in the west of Africa to which I know the House would like its attention directed. The Gracious Speech announced that a Bill would be
    "introduced early in this Session to grant independence within the Commonwealth to the Gold Coast under the name of Ghana, and it is the intention … that independence should take effect on 6th March. 1957. The Gold Coast Legislative Assembly have expressed the desire that Ghana should be an independent State within the Commonwealth."
    In choosing the name of Ghana for their country they have adopted the name of an ancient West African kingdom which flourished for about eight centuries, from 300 to 1100 A.D.
    In taking this step we are giving effect to the wishes of the people of Ghana, as clearly expressed through their Legislative Assembly, after the issue had been put before the country in a General Election. As the House and many other well-wishers know, the Gold Coast has enjoyed the considerable measure of self-government since 1951 and virtually full internal self-government since 1954. We are now taking the final step, and the Gold Coast will be the first of the British dependent territories in tropical Africa to attain full self-government as a sovereign and independent nation.
    We are taking this historic step at a moment when our nation is being charged

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    afresh with following what is called nineteenth century colonialism. I believe that the House, irrespective of party, will agree with me that this is not without significance. The way can never be easy for any new country in the modern world. There are bound to be difficulties ahead. It is our earnest hope that, through the statesmanship of their leaders, the people of the Gold Coast will be able to surmount them.
    It would be idle to deny that there are differences of opinion in the Gold Coast about the constitution it is to have. Our country and our people have frequently and untruly been charged with dividing and ruling in Africa and elsewhere. Far from dividing and ruling, we have been the cement which has kept peoples together. With our withdrawal from control, the bonds which we have fashioned will have to be replaced by other bonds, which can be fashioned only by wise statesmanship.
    I was very glad that the Prime Minister of the Gold Coast, Dr. Nkrumah, decided recently to meet the leaders of the Opposition parties and the Territorial Councils for a frank discussion of these differences and glad, also, that the Opposition in the Gold Coast accepted the Prime Minister's invitation. The Gold Coast Government's revised constitutional proposals resulting from these talks have just been published in the Gold Coast and were published for the first time in the London Press yesterday. Naturally, I have not as yet had time to give them proper study. I understand that they are being debated in the Legislative Assembly at Accra at the moment. We in this House will watch the progress of that debate with close and friendly attention, and it is our hope, as I know it is that of the people of the Gold Coast, that the widest possible measure of agreement will be reached.
    When the discussions in the Gold Coast are completed, the changes in the constitution will be embodied in an Order in Council. It will then be the duty of Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom, as one of their last responsibilities for the Gold Coast, to advise Her Majesty on the form of this Order in Council.
    Our own responsibilities as trustees for that country's future are coming to an end, but our advice and help on a
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    basis of equality will always be available and readily given, and I am sure that Ghana will enter on her new status with the good will of all in Great Britain.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: We all join, in every part of the House, in expressing our joy at the prospect of the Gold Coast remaining as an independent country within the Commonwealth. We also look forward to the emergence of the new Caribbean Federation. May I put this question to the right hon. Gentleman?
    Both these territories will then cease to be Colonies and to be entitled to any advantage and benefit derived from the two principal methods of granting such help, through the Colonial Development and Welfare Act and the Colonial Development Corporation. We all know that it will be the desire as well as the need of the good people in Ghana and in the Caribbean to receive help of all kinds afterwards, and it will be our desire to help them. Are the Government considering what amending legislation or new legislation may be desirable, so that we may be able to continue to give the help which they require? Could the Secretary of State make a statement on that before we discuss the Bill granting independence to the Gold Coast?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I will certainly do my best to make such a statement. We are, of course, giving attention to that matter. As I expressly said a few moments ago, in the case of the Caribbean Federation we have engaged for ten years to give budgetary assistance to the Federation. I recognise that a general problem exists here, and the Government are certainly not unmindful of it.
    While we have been guiding and directing the tide of nationalism in British Colonies and not running counter to it, we have been subjected to monstrous charges overseas, and a good deal of ignorance even at home. What we have been engaged in doing is in vivid contrast to the continual and increased suppression of liberty and the economic servitude imposed by Soviet imperialism on its subject peoples. The Soviets are always striving to enlarge the scope, the sphere and the extent of their empire, not least in the Middle East.
    If I may, I should like to end with one or two general observations about the

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    Middle East. I am very deeply aware that the work in which we are engaged, and to which we have honourably set our hand, could easily be undone if a conflagration should once more challenge the world. It must, therefore, be our duty at every stage to anticipate events and, where troubles do break out, to take resolute action to stop small troubles from growing into great ones. From all the controversy aroused by the Government's action in the Middle East there has emerged a growing understanding that whereas the object of the Anglo-French intervention was to stop a war which already existed from spreading, other forces were at work in the Arab world to exploit the situation in the interests of Soviet imperialism. Indeed, the area of our debate over these past ten days has imperceptibly widened as the realisation of the basic issues has grown.
    Today, very many people who began by talking as though we were concerned solely with a local conflict—[HON. MEMBERS: "The Government started that."]—have found themselves, however reluctantly, at grips with the really vital problem of our time. The effect of our action, first and foremost, has been the cease-fire. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No one can deny that.
    It has also uncovered the extent of Russian penetration and designs. It is clear that Egypt was already deep in the toils, so far committed by her dealings with the Soviets that she could not draw back. We know, from Colonel Nasser's utterances and from innumerable other indications, that Egypt planned to establish a hegemony over her neighbours. But Egypt was no longer herself a free agent. The domination of the area would have fallen, in practice, into the hands of the Soviet Union.
    Mr. Denis Healey: What is happening now?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: All this depended, however, upon the immobilisation of the United Nations and the belief that Britain and France would hesitate to act without prior international sanction. Such hesitation, in fact, was taken for granted. Instead—and this is now generally admitted—the Anglo-French action has stimulated the creation of a
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    United Nations Police Force. This, in itself, can be of incalculable benefit for the future.
    The House will have heard something, in recent days, about Soviet volunteers—a favourite old story, but a true one; a favourite Communist method of pursuing hostilities. The House will have observed once again that the Soviet Union threaten that volunteers are to be brought into Egypt. We had this before, at the time of Colonel Nasser's seizure of the Canal, and now the threat is repeated. Just as there was an intervention of the Communist Chinese volunteers in the Korean War and, before that, similar movements in the Greek civil war, this technique—
    Mr. Wilfred Fienburgh: Spain.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Certainly—on both sides.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: Which side was the right hon. Gentleman on?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Which side was I on? Responsible, as I am, for Gibraltar affairs—and I am not alone in this country in thinking as I do—I prefer to have Franco on the other side than the Soviet Union.
    This technique of intervention, first by arms and then by volunteers, is deeply disturbing, in the sense that it attempts to clothe with legality the employment of private armies whose aim, in fact, is to lay their hold on the States that they are professing to assist. That has been going on in Egypt and it may now be going on in Syria. Without the external Communist intervention the wars in Greece and Korea would have been immeasurably shortened. By introducing the same possibility in the Middle East Russia merely provides irrefutable evidence that this so-called episode in Egypt is not an episode at all; on the contrary, it is a calculated development by the Soviet Union in a continuous process, of infiltration at the least, and of conquest at the most.
    All this brings us back to the inexorable truth. I would commend hon. Members to read this week's Time and Tide, in which Professor Gilbert Murray had some significant things to say. Had the Professor taken another view his quotations

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    would have been on the lips of every hon. Member opposite. Long before most of them were born he was proselytizing for the League of Nations and the League of Nations Union. This is what he said:
    "The rather wild confusion into which people have fallen about the Middle Eastern situation is, I think, due to two main causes. First, it is strictly a question of international law and our system of international law is not complete. The United Nations was intended to have a means of enforcing the law; it has no such means."
    He went on to speak of the consequences of the local war spreading, and said:
    "Such a danger, the Prime Minister saw, must be stopped instantly and, since the United Nations has no instrument, it must be stopped, however irregularly, by those nations who can act at once."
    Mr. Lee Mr. Lee rose—
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I must develop this argument before I give way.
    Of course, Professor Gilbert Murray is right. The United Nations has had no such instrument. We have now created an opportunity for the United Nations to have such an instrument. Hon. Members may say that this could not have been foreseen at the time when Her Majesty's Government and the French Government made their decision to intervene. They took upon themselves responsibilities which, had the international force existed at that time, it would have been for such a force to assume.
    But what could be foreseen at that time was that the United Nations would not act effectively. It had no forces at its disposal, and it has been powerless in the past to enforce the many resolutions dealing with the Middle East. The action which we took has completely altered that situation. We and the French have immediately declared our willingness to admit without delay United Nations observers and to hand over our responsibilities to an international force. This is a practical opportunity which has never occurred before to the United Nations.
    Mr. Kenneth Younger: I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman can make it clear just what are the reasons upon which he was wishing us to understand that the United Nations might have intervened at the time the Anglo-French forces went in, had such a United Nations force existed.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Would not it have been the purpose of such a force? It is a grim prospect for the future if the right hon. Gentleman really means that had there been a United Nations force it would not have regarded it as one of its duties to have intervened to stop the small war becoming a big one.
    Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why, if the British Government felt that it was desirable from the start that there should be a United Nations force, they said nothing about it at all?
    Hon. Members: We did.
    Mr. Gaitskell: No—not until the Thursday. The hostilities began on the Monday and the ultimatum was given on the Tuesday. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why, if that was the Government's view, they did not support the Resolution at the Security Council instead of vetoing it, and, having supported it—which would have meant that it would have been carried unanimously—then proposed that there should be a United Nations force to which we could contribute, in order to see that the Resolution was carried out?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will remember that at the very first moment that the United Nations took any practical action about it we ourselves took practical action to show our readiness. We took the only practical steps. I have no doubt whatsoever that, historically, it will be recognised that there never would have been an international force of any kind but for the action that we took. [Interruption] There are two sides to many questions, and the overwhelming majority of people are coming round to our way of thinking.
    In conclusion, I should like to pass to the theme of Hungary. Many people have noticed that there has been an attempt to compare what has happened in the Middle East with what has happened in Hungary. I will refrain from making observations about the leading article in today's Daily Herald, because I cannot believe that decent people who read it will do other than deeply resent it, and particularly its concluding paragraph. In Hungary, repeated requests by the United Nations that its observers should be allowed to enter the country have been

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    refused, while we have straight away said that we should be ready to have United Nations observers and a United Nations force.
    I will tell the House—lest, in its passionate concentration on Parliamentary debate, it has not had the time or the inclination to read it—what the neutral Press has been saying. From Sweden—a peace-loving and freedom-loving country—there is a flood of comment to the effect that no possible comparison can be drawn between our intervention to stop a war and Russian intervention, which must, in any event, have ben planned before the Suez operation began, to crush a nation.
    Mr. John Hynd: Why must it?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I should certainly not recommend the right hon. Gentleman for the post of Minister of Defence if, however unlikely it is, the other side won an Election.
    From Switzerland, in its recent issue, the Journal de Geneve—
    Mr. Francis Noel-Baker Mr. Francis Noel-Baker (Swindon)rose—
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: I must, on different occasions, have given way a hundred times to the hon. Member, but I am not prepared to do so on this occason. The Journal de Geneve said:
    "As far as France and Great Britain are concerned it is conceivable in law, possible in fact, and acceptable in principle that the United Nations take over the police operation which is aimed at separating the belligerents and protecting the Suez Canal. As far as the Soviet Union is concerned it is inconceivable in law, impossible in fact and unacceptable in principle that the United Nations should take over the military operation which has just been launched against the Hungarian people."
    Nor should anybody imagine that Communist plans are laid at short notice, or are hastily modified or improvised. What has happened in Hungary is the reaction to events in Poland and Eastern Germany, and the stirrings of independence among the satellite nations. Soviet counteraction in Hungary would not have been restrained or deflected by events in the outside world. Indeed, if an example is needed of long and careful planning by the Soviet, one has only to look at the Middle East itself.
    We can now more clearly establish the extent to which Soviet arms and intrigue
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    have penetrated the area. It is increasingly clear, if only from Soviet anger, that our action there, directed as it was to stop the fighting and successful as it was in stopping the fighting, has also disrupted some carefully laid Soviet plans. These stem from the large imports of Soviet war material into Egypt since the beginning of last year—and also into Syria—and are now being followed by Communist infiiltration.
    The House has spent many very anxious, and often hectic, hours on Suez. I hope that hon. Members are following with care the unmistakable signs, such as I have quoted, of a growing understanding in neutral nations that are not at this time involved in this dispute. I have quoted from Sweden and Switzerland. Perhaps I can end with quotations from Italy. The Corriere della Sera said:
    "The truth is that fighting has ceased because the police action undertaken by Britain and France has succeeded."
    The Messaggero said:
    "Events have entirely justified Anglo-French action."
    Is it too much to hope that hon. Members opposite, who claim to be an alternative Government, should also be able to step aside for one moment and take a long and not a party view?
    4.23 p.m.
    Mr. Alfred Robens Mr. Alfred Robens (Blyth)rose—
    Mr. F. Noel-Baker: On a point of order. Before the Colonial Secretary sits down, Mr. Speaker, could I put to him the point which he would not allow me to put a moment or two ago? He has given a vague and utterly misleading account of the reaction of—
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Robens.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: On a point of order.
    Mr. Speaker: What is the point of order? I thought the hon. Member was raising one last time, but there was no point of order in that.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: May I seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker? How can we get the Secretary of State for the Colonies to substantiate and give his authority for the utterly misleading impressions given by him of the European Press, particularly the Swedish Press?
    Mr. Speaker: I hope there will be an opportunity for hon. Members of Her Majesty's Opposition to speak, in which case we shall no doubt hear any weak points of the previous statement carefully gone into; but it must be done in order by consecutive speeches.
    Mr. Robens: I gather from the observations of the Colonial Secretary that he was appealing for some unity in this matter. I should like to suggest that if, in fact, that was the case and the Government wanted some unity and some calm thought on this matter, the last person they should have put up to speak was the right hon. Gentleman.
    I hope the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I do not follow him in what he had to say about the Colonies. I have no doubt that many of my hon. Friends who have taken a very special interest in the Colonies will, if they succeed in catching your eye, Mr. Speaker, deal with many of the points that he has raised. I propose to confine myself to the latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks. I had prepared my own speech in the anticipation that the Prime Minister was to open the debate. Indeed, in the Press and over the radio it was announced that such would be the case. However, the Colonial Secretary has done that for him.
    The events in these last fourteen days have, of course, moved very rapidly since the Prime Minister announced in this House the Franco-British ultimatum to Egypt and Israel after the invasion of Egyptian territory the night before. During that time a large number of reasons have been given by the Government for their action, and, indeed, the right hon. Gentleman advanced some more today. The new one, the Russian threat, was first advanced, I think, on Thursday by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. He said that the Egyptians had been armed to the teeth by the Russians and that there was a deep-laid Russian plot, using Nasser as its instrument, to take over the Middle East. The claim is that this plot existed before the Anglo-French intervention.
    Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: Of course it did.
    Mr. Robens: Let us consider this for a moment. If the Government were aware of this plot, a sensational threat to
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    peace involving the whole of the West, did they disclose it to the Americans? Did they disclose it to the Commonwealth, or did they keep it a fast secret to themselves? Surely, the first thing they should have done, in view of all that they have said, and especially in view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said this afternoon, was to consult America as the other signatory to the Tripartite Agreement.
    Secondly, if the Government had evidence of this deep-laid plot which was to bring turmoil to the Middle East, surely they should have raised the matter at the United Nations as a possible threat to peace and brought world opinion to bear upon this Russian plot which they have now discovered. Surely, if they believed that there was this tremendous danger, the one thing above all that they had to keep in mind was the complete unity between ourselves and our most powerful ally.
    Now about the Russian arms. Was this really a surprise to the Government? The Government surely cannot claim that they were ignorant of the Russian arms supplied to Egypt. Time and time again, week in and week out, month in and month out, the Government have been asked from these benches about supplying quality arms to Israel to match the Russian arms being supplied to the Egyptians. Indeed, in the debate on 24lh January, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition gave a very clear warning to the Government of the possible consequence of their refusal to give quality arms to Israel to match the Russian arms going into Egypt. He said:
    "The result is that two grave dangers emerge. The first, which is the most obvious one, is that the Arabs, whose feelings on this matter we know, are bound now to be encouraged to hope that in the not very distant future they will have their revenge and will have their opportunity to eliminate Israel. The second danger is that the Israelis, realising that the balance is tilted against them and will be more and more tilted, will take the opportunity while things are not so bad from their point of view to go in for preventive action."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 24th January, 1956; Vol. 548, c. 68.]
    That, of course, is precisely what has happened.
    Therefore, it is no use at this late hour for the Government to find as a reason for their extraordinary behaviour in waging war on Egypt the fact that

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    Russian arms have been pouring into Egypt. The facts have been well known since the first revelation of the Czech arms deal with Egypt in September last year. What the House was led by the Government to believe was, of course, exactly the opposite. We were led by the Government to believe that the balance of arms was in favour of the Israelis and that the Tripartite Declaration was a firm guarantee of security. On 12th December the Prime Minister said:
    "Israel is not, in my belief, at a military disadvantage today in relation to any Arab State, or, indeed, to any combination of Arab States who are on her frontier. I think that that is about a true estimate of the situation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th December, 1955; Vol. 547, c. 964.]
    On 24th January the Foreign Secretary said in a debate:
    "It is frequently contended that Israel has been left in a position of inferiority. That is not so. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in winding-up the debate on 12th December …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th January, 1956; Vol. 548, c. 160.]
    The right hon. and learned Gentleman then quoted the words I have just quoted. I wish to ask the Prime Minister when he came to the conclusion that the Tripartite Declaration did not cover the position of Egypt. He told us on 30th October it was when he was negotiating for the agreement on the Canal Base in 1954. This is what he said:
    "I should have informed the House—I should have recollected before, because I have had something to do with those negotiations—that when we were negotiating for the agreement on the Canal Base in 1954"—
    I hope hon. Members will remember that date—
    "… Egypt insisted on an agreed interpretation of the Treaty. Hon. Members will find that on the back of the White Paper which was published at the time the Treaty was issued.
    In that agreed interpretation Egypt insisted specifically on making it clear that we would not have the right to reactivate the base in the event of an attack on Egypt, or any other Arab State, by Israel. The only implication of that must surely be that Egypt did not want the three-Power Declaration to apply to her in respect of a conflict with Israel."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th October, 1956; Vol. 558, c. 1346.]
    That was not the implication. The implication which was clear was that the Egyptians were not going to have the base reactivated if there was a war with
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    Israel. It had nothing to do with the Tripartite Declaration at all, yet on 30th October the Prime Minister said that in those negotiations with which he had a great deal to do he recollected the point so clearly and, apparently, it was from that date that he came to the conclusion that the Tripartite Declaration no longer covered Egypt.
    The Prime Minister also told us in the same debate that the Egyptian Foreign Secretary had said that the Tripartite Declaration was a unilateral declaration and gave rise to no contractual obligation. Of course the Tripartite Declaration was a unilateral declaration made by the U.S.A., France and ourselves. Of course we did not consult the Arab States or the State of Israel when those discussions took place in Washington and the Tripartite Declaration was made, but that did not invalidate the Declaration. It was an instrument designed by the three Powers to try to bring some peace and stability to the Middle East.
    It was designed to do two specific things—to maintain a fair balance of arms and to give an absolute, unqualified assurance that the armistice frontiers would be guaranteed by those three Powers and action would be taken if those frontiers were violated. The Prime Minister now excuses his non-use of the Tripartite Declaration which let him out of consulting the Americans on the ground that from 1954 onwards he had come to the conclusion that the Tripartite Declaration did not apply to Egypt. I want him, therefore, to explain some of the statements he has made in this House. On 12th December last year the Prime Minister said:
    "As I have said a great many times before, and I repeat it now, we stand with our allies and are ready to carry out generally with our allies the terms of the Declaration, sharing full responsibility with our co-signatories for any action that would be taken. That would be action to assist Israel if she were attacked or action to assist an Arab country if she were attacked by Israel. That is the position, and I hope it is now clear enough for the whole House to understand."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 12th December, 1955; Vol. 547, c. 962–3.]
    That is exactly what we did understand, and we also understood that Egypt was an Arab State.
    We need not rely on that one unqualified assurance and interpretation of the Tripartite Declaration from the Prime

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    Minister. He got cross with us from time to time, as did the Foreign Secretary, because we had constantly asked him whether he stood by the Tripartite Declaration or not, and on 14th February this year, in reply to an interruption, he said:
    "Yes, Sir; the declaration of 1950 is wholly in harmony with the terms of the United Nations Charter. In fact, so far as I know. I have never hitherto heard anybody cast doubt on that fact … the right hon. Gentleman knows well that our position has been, remains and will be that we will carry out the terms of the 1950 Declaration. I do not think I can possibly go beyond that or put a gloss upon it"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th February, 1956; Vol. 548. c. 2168.]
    Mr. Douglas Glover Mr. Douglas Glover (Ormskirk)rose—
    Mr. Robens: May I be allowed to finish this passage? I have one more important quotation to show that those statements were obviously at variance with the thinking of the Prime Minister, the explanation he gave us last week about the Tripartite Declaration and the reason he took no action under it in the recent crisis. This is what the right hon. Gentleman said in March of this year. He quoted the relevant section of the Washington Declaration and then said:
    "The Tripartite Declaration of 25th May. 1950, provides for action both inside and outside the United Nations in the event of the use of force or threat of force or of preparations to violate the frontier or armistice lines. We are bound to recognise that there is now increased danger. Accordingly we have made arrangements for joint discussions as to the nature of the action which we should take in such an event."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th March. 1956; Vol. 549, c. 2231.]
    Seven months after the Prime Minister had confirmed that arrangements had been made for joint discussions, the event for which the Americans, the French and the British had provided occurred. The armistice frontier between Egypt and Israel was violated on a major scale and, despite all these declarations, there was no consultation with the United States of America. What was even more amazing was that the Prime Minister explained at that moment that he had for two years decided that it was not going to apply in the case of an attack on Egypt.
    I would ask the Prime Minister what happens now to the Tripartite Declaration? Are we no longer bound by it? Is it scrapped?
    Mr. Raymond Gower: Is the right hon. Member not saying, in effect, that under the Tripartite Declaration he and his hon. and right hon. Friends would have gone to war against Israel and with Egypt?
    Mr. Robens: We stood four-square behind the Tripartite Declaration. We would have carried out the arrangements made with the United States and France, which were provided for by the Prime Minister on his visit to Washington. We would have had discussions with the signatories to the Tripartite Declaration.
    We have been told, as one of the reasons for there not being any discussions, that there was not time. It is a fair point to make. There are occasions when there is no time to carry out obligations that we have undertaken and when we act and talk afterwards. Over the week-end I looked at this reason that the Prime Minister has given to us, and I compared what had been happening in this House with what happened at the United Nations. For this purpose I took account of the lag between New York time and the time in London. I brought them both to Greenwich mean time. They make a very interesting table of events indeed.
    On Tuesday, 30th October, at four o'clock Greenwich mean time, the Security Council met to discuss the letter which had been produced by the United States delegate regarding steps for the immediate cessation of military action in Egypt. At half-past four in this House, half an hour later, the Prime Minister announced the Anglo-French ultimatum. Fifteen minutes later, in New York, Sir Pierson Dixon, the British delegate, told the Security Council that he was expecting a statement from the Prime Minister, that he did not know what would be in it, and that when he was made aware of the contents of the statement he would circulate it to members of the Security Council.
    Ten minutes after that, at four fifty-five approximately, the Russian delegate, Mr. Sobolev, was able to read an Associated Press report summarising the Prime Minister's statement. At ten minutes past six the Security Council rose. It arranged to meet again at nine o'clock that night. At nine o'clock Sir Pierson Dixon immediately read the

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    operative points from the Prime Minister's statement. At half-past nine, Mr. Cabot Lodge introduced the United States Resolution, the text of which had been circulated before that time to all members of the Security Council.
    This point is important. At nine-thirty, Mr. Cabot Lodge introduces the United States Resolution, of which the text has been circulated beforehand. At nine-thirty-four in this House, on behalf of Members on these benches, I asked the Prime Minister to stay his hand. I share with many hon. Members a lack of desire to quote my own speeches, but I hope to be forgiven for doing so now. I said:
    "I therefore beg and urge the Prime Minister not to divide the House. He can lose nothing by postponing this decision for forty-eight hours, by which time the Security Council will have made its decision. I plead with him to do it. The Foreign Secretary has the opportunity to do that now, to keep this country united, and not have a declaration of war—because that is what this ultimatum will mean—with half of this House and half the country against the action proposed to be taken."
    That plea was made a few moments after the Security Council was beginning to consider the United States Resolution.
    A few moments after that, as we were approaching ten o'clock, the Foreign Secretary said:
    "In the present international system, where the Security Council is subject to the veto, there must be the right for individual countries to intervene in an emergency to take action to defend their own nationals and their own interests…. The suggestion is made that we should agree to defer any action until the conclusion of the Security Council debate. That is an undertaking which I believe it is quite impossible and impracticable for any Government to give."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th October, 1956; Vol. 558, c. 1377, 1381 and 1382.]
    Two hours later, Britain along with France vetoed the United States Resolution. The only other Commonwealth member of the Security Council, Australia, abstained. This time-table proves beyond doubt that while the Foreign Secretary was on his feet here complaining about the use of the veto, he or the Government had instructed or were about to instruct our delegate in the Security Council to veto that American Resolution.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: He did not say a word to us about it.
    Mr. Robens: Why did not the British Government accept the Resolution: which
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    would have been carried unanimously, and immediately then propose the international United Nations force to see that it was carried out? They could have offered contingents of British, French and, indeed, American forces, because the American Fleet was in the Mediterranean and could have been the spearhead of the vanguard of those forces?
    Mr. Charles Ian Orr-Ewing: Against whom?
    Mr. Robens: The Prime Minister ignored the pleas in this House and took his line because he wanted to ride on the backs of the Israelis and carry out the military action which he was denied in August because of public opinion.
    Can the Prime Minister not understand that, when people have considered all these events and declarations, the timetable and so on, this ugly rumour of collusion is gaining ground in the capitals of the world? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Oh, yes. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] I say that this ugly rumour is gaining ground in the capitals of the world. On Sunday there was an article in the Observer headed "The Question of Collusion." I want to quote only three small paragraphs from it, which set out the allegations made against the British Government. They are as follows:
    "Last week Chalmers Roberts, the Diplomatic Correspondent of the Washington Post, wrote that 'the Eden Government deliberately set out to mislead the United States.' His charge was that at their meeting in Paris on October 16 the French Prime Minister and Foreign Minister 'sold' to Sir Anthony Eden and Mr. Selwyn Lloyd a plan of intervention which the former had already worked out with the Israelis."
    That is a grave charge. Later on, the article says:
    "Researches in the capitals concerned show that the charge of Anglo-French collusion with Israel contained in this account is supported by a priori evidence. What follows is not a historian's judgment but is based on evidence available at present."
    Finally is this statement:
    "On October 26 a number of senior Israeli officers arrived in Paris. On the same date American intelligence agencies detected a marked rise in the level of official cable and wireless traffic between Paris and Tel Aviv. It was on the basis of this information, rather than reports that Israel was continuing to mobilise after the threat of Iraq's reinforcement of Jordan had been dropped, that President Eisenhower issued his warnings of October 27 and 28 to Mr. Ben-Gurion."

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    I understand that the Government deny these charges, but I repeat that they are serious and grave charges. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) suggested the other day that there should be a Select Committee or a Royal Commission to inquire into these matters. If these charges are unfounded, the Government in their own interests and for the fair name of Britain should agree to his proposals. If the Government are completely innocent of these charges, they have everything to gain and nothing to lose by a thorough investigation. Another matter about which we might be told something—
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that matter, I think it would enhance his own reputation if he said categorically whether he believes these charges are true or not.
    Mr. Robens: My answer to the hon. Gentlemon is that I do not know. That is why I urge the Government to have this investigation, so that we shall all know the truth.
    I was saying that there is another matter to which we might have some answers to questions asked in this House. For example, about the broadcast from the Supreme Command to Egypt on 4th November, and also about the content of the leaflets dropped over Port Said. The broadcast and the leaflets were designed to tell the Egyptians that they were being bombed and driven from their homes because they had committed a sin, the sin being that they had believed the lies of and had confidence in Colonel Nasser. That is a new war aim which we have not heard in this House from the Prime Minister.
    We should have more answers to these questions, and I hope that the Lord Privy Seal, who I understand is to reply for the Government tonight, will give answers, not only to these questions, but to many questions which have been asked in these endless debates and statements we have had during the last fourteen days.
    Let us have a look at the balance-sheet. What have we gained and what have we lost by the action which we have taken? Well, first the Government claim, on the
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    credit side, that they stopped the war and separated the combatants.
    Mr. Ronald Russell: "Prematurely."
    Mr. Robens: But throughout the Arab States, the whole of the Arab States, the Arabs do not believe that at all. They believe that it was Russian intervention and the threat of Russian rockets on Britain which stopped the war. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman may laugh as much as he likes, but that is what the Arabs believe. Loyal members of the United Nations believe that it was the decision of the United Nations that stopped the war. I say this to the Prime Minister. Outside the supporters of his party and his Government, there is no praise given to this country, to Britain, for having stopped the war at all.
    What is the other claim that the Government make for their action? They claim that their military action produced a United Nations police force. This is an interesting claim, because had they decided that one day it was necessary to take military action to secure a United Nations police force, one would have thought that at some time or other they might have mentioned the matter in the United Nations. Yesterday, in answer to a question from one of my hon. Friends, the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs revealed that at no time had the British Government raised the question of a police force at the United Nations. The most that the Joint Under-Secretary would say was what the Foreign Secretary has said from time to time; that he had had one or two private conversations with the Secretary-General and so on. But at no time, such was the desire of the British Government to have a United Nations police force—with people being slaughtered and war waged and we branded as an aggressor—was it thought worthy of mentioning in the United Nations.
    Of course, they could have had a police force. In January of this year Colonel Nasser offered to withdraw his troops a kilometre from the frontier if the Israelis would do the same; and he offered to agree to a United Nations force—either an extension of General Burns' force or some other—occupying that area. The Foreign Secretary knew about this. The British Ambassador in

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    Cairo knew about it. They did nothing about it. At no time, either through diplomatic action or at the United Nations, did they seize that valuable opportunity in January of this year to have a demilitarised zone in the Gaza Strip with a United Nations police force which would have stopped the last outbreak of hostilities. So I think that the two claims the Government made are not claims worthy for the great mass of the people of this country to accept.
    What have we on the other side of the balance-sheet? Britain's name has been dishonoured. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, indeed. She has broken her solemn pledge as enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations. The Tripartite Declaration has been destroyed, and it will be a long time before the United States Government ever put a signature alongside Britain to another declaration of that kind. Our action has split the nation and split the Commonwealth. Despite the fact that one of the aims of the Government was to ensure the continued and unfettered operation of the Suez Canal, it is blocked; and many weeks, possibly many months, will elapse before it is open to traffic once again.
    Our oil supplies have been jeopardised, not only because the tankers must now go round the Cape, but because the pumping stations and pipelines have been destroyed. At a time when the country's economic position is difficult enough, this action places an additional burden and strain upon it. My right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) dealt with this in great detail yesterday. To say the least, we have strained the Atlantic Alliance and the effects upon N.A.T.O. have yet to be seen.
    The Bagdad Pact was one of the two pillars on which rested the Government's Middle East policy. We all remember how from that Dispatch Box both the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister and Under-Secretaries have said that the basis of their Middle East policy was the Bagdad Pact and the Tripartite Agreement. Yet the Bagdad Powers meet without us and censure us for our action. The right hon. Gentleman talked about Russian influence in the Middle East. I say that we can put on this side of the balance-sheet that this action has been an open invitation to
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    the U.S.S.R. to come right into the Middle East. The Arabs regard the Russians as their friends; they regard us as their enemies. We have created a legacy of hatred among the Arab States that may not be dispelled in our lifetime. We have aroused deep mistrust throughout Asia and the Colonies, which is probably the worst disaster to British prestige that this country has ever had.
    What of the future? The most serious development of all in my opinion is the great opportunity presented to Russia to acquire for herself more political influence in the Arab States than was the case before the Anglo-French attack on Egypt. Two possibilities emerge from this—serious ones, grave ones for us. The first is the arming of the Arab States for a war of revenge with Russian volunteers. The second one is slower; it is the highly dangerous menace of the political influence of Russia throughout the whole of the Middle East.
    Syria has gone, Jordon is on the way. Iraq? We can put a question mark behind Iraq because she holds the key position, and who will be so bold as to say where Iraq will stand in a few weeks' time? Clearly, the animosities and hatred between Jews and Arabs are more inflamed than before, and, what is worse, British and French influence to act as peacemakers has gone completely. Alone among the Western Powers with any prestige or ability to influence affairs remains the United States, and if we were wise we would urge the United States of America and India, through the United Nations, to help to solve these terrible problems of the Middle East.
    The international police force should move away as soon as possible from the Canal Zone. It should go into the Sinai Peninsula as soon as it is practicable and, finally, take up its position along the frontiers. Then, free from the threat of force on the Canal Zone, the Canal Users should take up negotiations from where they were abrupty terminated and again, through the United Nations, the six principles which both sides accepted in the operation of the Canal should be included in an agreement within the spirit of the 1888 Convention. All this will be a long and painful process. But to move from an atmosphere of war, hate and suspicion to conciliation, peace and friendship is a long and hard road.

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    I want to conclude with a few words about the United Nations and the Charter, especially in relation to the use of force. As we have pointed out so frequently from these benches in the last few months, force is permitted in the Charter in self-defence or collective defence against armed attack. If we or our allies were the subject of such an attack, we could justifiably use force and continue to do so unless or until we were told to stop by the United Nations. If we were not told to stop, then force would continue to be legitimate.
    Force is also permitted under the Charter if the Security Council or the Assembly by a two-thirds majority specifically permits or recommends it. But there is nothing whatever in the Charter which permits a country to decide on its own to wage a preventive war. Those who drafted the Charter saw quite clearly that if preventive wars were made legitimate—if, in short, force was allowed other than in self-defence against armed attack—it would make nonsense of the basic ideas of the United Nations; for, throughout history, every aggressor has always claimed that his war was a preventive war. Nor is there anything in the Charter which permits nations to decide on their own that they may take what they please to call police action. The reason for this omission is exactly the same. For if nations were allowed to decide on their own to take police action, any State could use this as justification for any act of aggression.
    When the right hon. Gentleman spoke about Hungary today, let us remember that if we can claim police action there are others ready to seize that same excuse for what they do themselves. The essence of all this is that, under the Charter, nations are not allowed to decide for themselves these crucial issues of peace and war except in self-defence. That is what hon. Members opposite never seem to understand. The essential feature of the United Nations Charter is that the members undertake to accept collective decisions and that, failing such decisions, they may use force only in self-defence.
    My final word is this. Do not imagine that we can divorce either the Atlantic Alliance and N.A.T.O. or the Commonwealth from these basic ideas. Both those associations so precious to us, so vital to
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    us for our own security, rest fundamentally not just upon common interests, not even just upon common faith in democracy, though these are important, but also upon the acceptance of the ideals of the United Nations of which I have been speaking.
    This is the heart of our charge against the Government. They abandoned these ideals and, for all the pathetic, desperate, contradictory series of excuses given almost day by day, they cannot deny that, in the opinion of the world, they have broken with that fundamental faith. In doing so, they struck the heaviest blows at the Atlantic Alliance and the Commonwealth. It is because the Government abandoned these principles that the divisions in the Commonwealth, with our allies and in the country have come about. I tell the Prime Minister, with all the sincerity that I possess, that it is only by returning to them and abiding by them that unity can ever be restored.
    5.7 p.m.
    Mr. Kenneth Pickthorn: I should like to begin by making one or two remarks about some of the things which have just been said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), although I hope that later in the course of my more general argument I may return to some others.
    I thought that the right hon. Gentleman's recommendation of the suggested Royal Commission was really not very helpful. However much any of us may think that such suggestions, at times when we believe the Government to be vulnerable, are useful as part of Parliamentary warfare, it is very difficult to believe that especially after the last fortnight of what the right hon. Gentleman called "these endless debates"—[Interruption.] I shall be very grateful if the right hon. Gentleman, even if he cannot bear to listen to me—I bore to listen to him; that was a test but I did it—will not talk too loudly.
    I confess to the House that I have never been so frightened of making a speech as I am at this moment. I agree wholly with the right hon. Gentleman that, terrible things have happened in these last six or eight weeks, I agree wholly with him that terrible things are happening now, and I agree wholly with him that none of us dares guess how much more terrible things might happen soon. Thus

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    it is very difficult to feel absolutely certain that one is so well inspired that one may be sure by speaking in this House that one will do good, still more difficult to be sure that one will not do harm.
    I agreed with the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones) when he said that we are all in this now. We are all in it, not merely because we shall all share the consequences but because we all share the blame. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Let anybody who wishes to jeer at me for saying that search his conscience and be quite sure how much of the blame he shares.
    To suggest that at this moment Her Majesty's Government would be likely to be either better advised or more effective if there were either a Select Committee or a Royal Commission looking into the events of the past few weeks seems to me to show a most careless ignorance of the way great things happen. [HON. MEMBERS: "Great things? "] Yes. Great things are happening; it may be good or ill, but they are great. It seems to me to show the most careless ignorance of the way such things happen to make that suggestion.
    It also seems to me to show a pretty careless ignorance to urge, as the right hon. Gentleman did towards the end of his remarks, if I understood him aright, that India and someone else who I have forgotten should as quickly as possible be put in charge of the Canal Zone. Why not put them in charge of Hungary? Why not? Mr. Krishna Menon has shown an interest in that country. There could not be a more foolish suggestion than that made by the right hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] I must warn the House that if I feel like it I am going on today and no amount of cheering or jeering or anything else from the other side of the House will affect that except that the more noise hon. Members opposite make the longer I shall speak.
    I turn to the question of the legitimacy of force in self-defence under the United Nations. It is a most difficult problem. We all know that it is a most difficult problem in private affairs and in criminal affairs, and it is much more difficult in public affairs, where Governments are not engaged in defending themselves. They are engaged, according to what poor lights they have—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear,
    788
    hear."]—yes, the poor lights they have, not of course the good lights which shadow Foreign Secretaries have; they are engaged in trying to defend whatever millions of people may have been, rightly or wrongly, entrusted to them. It is the most difficult political question in the world.
    Whatever else is said about international law, one thing must be admitted. Incidentally, I happen to know a lot of distinguished international lawyers from the very top brass downwards, and I have done the best I can to understand this matter from the point of view of international law. I am bound to say that I have found it difficult. I have found it so difficult that I could hardly imagine a Cabinet in which the majority of them would understand it and on which the bulk would be able to agree about it. Whatever else may be said about international law, there is this to be said: that in matters of vital emergency there is no time to get it reduced to easily accessible effectiveness except in the very simplest cases. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, and some in the country, who have been shooting off their mouths about international law—
    Mr. William Ross: Oh.
    Mr. Pickthorn: That is a phrase I should expect the hon. Member to know. As I was saying, those right hon. and hon. Gentlemen had better pause and consider it. Some have said quite a lot about the Kellogg Pact. Incidentally, anybody who knows anything about the way in which the Kellogg Pact came into existence must find it very difficult to speak of it with respect. Nevertheless, the Kellogg Pact has been appealed to as a kind of Old Testament in this matter. But the one thing of this sort about which I feel fairly certain is this—that under the Kellogg Pact everything that we have done would have counted as self-defence, for reservations at that time made it plain that if things of this sort had to be done they would count as self-defence.
    I return to the right hon. Gentleman's words about "these endless debates". I agreed with all those three words except the last. I hope the House will acquit me of any temptation to lecture the House or to be superior—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—I hope so—and I am sure that you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, will acquit me

    789
    of any intention, and I have absolutely none, of throwing any aspersions upon the Chair. But there is one thing about what has happened during the last fortnight which I should like to say, perhaps quite wrongly; and anyway, if I am right, perhaps I am the wrong person to say it. But I have been listening so long. That is why I did not speak until today. I have felt it necessary that at some stage someone should say this.
    I am no very great friend of Oliver Cromwell and I have always thought it more than slightly absurd that we should have effigies of him about this place. This last fortnight, however, I have seen, I think, not why our predecessors put him there perhaps, but why I should abandon the half-formed intention I have had the last 21 years, since I have been here, that I ought to agitate to get him removed. I think I now begin to see the excuse for celebrating and eternising Oliver Cromwell in the Palace of Westminster. Oliver Cromwell found that it is quite impossible to conduct great affairs if one has a House of Commons sitting continuously and continually talking, nagging and questioning—
    Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: Take away that bauble.
    Mr. Pickthorn:—about the hourly administration, and especially about the administration of great affairs. If I can quote another gentleman from another revolution in that century—I have forgotten who it was—I should explain that he had been put off the Commission of the Peace for his county by James II; and when James began to need friends and became frightened of what was going to happen next, he invited the gentleman whose name I have forgotten to come back on the Commission; but the gentleman said—and this is an appropriate thing to remember in connection with Oliver Cromwell's kicking out of the Rump—"One kick on the breech is enough for a gentleman." [Laughter.] I hope that nobody will think that because something I say may be amusing, what I say is not most deeply and seriously felt. I never was more serious in my life.
    I think the House of Commons, which at least conventionally is a hydra-headed gentleman, may have thought one kick was enough. I am quite sure of this—that the longevity of this House, the reason
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    for the development of parliamentary government in this country in the last 300 years, is that they learned from Oliver when he kicked them out that one cannot have Government managed if one is going to have this House directly trying to direct policy and to cross-examine the Administration in the course of proceedings.
    Mr. J. Hynd: Single-party rule.
    Mr. Pickthom: Not at all. I have once before been rebuked for saying this, but I believe that the business of the House, apart from its most important business of all—and the two are part of the same thing—of controlling the choice of Ministers and the behaviour of Ministers, by voting or not voting money, is to get the Ministers who nearly as possible will do what the majority of the House want by continually making a market upon Ministers, with the reputations of Ministers continually going up and down. That is the business of the House. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman opposite seems to be more ill-natured than well-informed. Those who lie supine should not spit. I will do him the justice that he did not invent that jibe—it has been made already by live or six of his little friends. I hope this is the last time.
    What I was saying was this. I have inquired of those who have the closest knowledge of the House during the last generation, and I have had a fairly close knowledge of it myself for 21 years, and my impression is confirmed by all with whom I have spoken, that never before has there been so long-continued noise, heckling, interruption—and, most especially, noise, noise, noise. It has not happened before, I believe, in the history of Parliament—certainly not in the history of any of our lives up to now.
    Mr. Charles Pannell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, because it seemed to some of us on this side that Mr. Speaker, probably in order to set an example, in his own unfettered judgment suspended the House very quickly. I believe that there was an occasion when Mr. Asquith was at the Box for over an hour before the Speaker suspended the House; and there was an occasion when a book was thrown at

    791
    the ex-Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill). Anyone who reads the Lords controversy in the years between 1911 and 1914 could hardly bear out what the hon. Gentleman now says. It seems to us that Mr. Speaker was rather in a hurry to suspend us the other week—
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I think that this speech had better be discontinued.
    Mr. Pickthorn: As far as that goes, one hour is nothing by comparison with one fortnight. The things are simply not commensurable. I did not assert that there had not been more decibels—I think that is the term for units of noise—than were emitted in one day in the last fortnight, but I said that by the accidents of our procedure, by the accident of the Parliamentary period in which we happen to be, and by the accidents of being, as a result, for a while without a formal Question Time, one way and another there has been, in fact, what it would be flattering to call debate, and perhaps still more to call discussion.
    There has been continual talking, questioning and chi-iking on this matter in a way which I believe is unprecedented. I believe that the mere amount of noise made—and this may seem fanciful to some hon. Members opposite—has had a considerable effect in tiring those of us who do sit in the Chamber, and stupefying us, dulling our minds. I know that that is so with me, although it might not altogether be untrue even of those who are loudest-mouthed on the benches opposite. And I think that it is certain that this behaviour has made almost physically impossible the task of Ministers.
    Apart from the chi-iking, and I believe that if that went on very long parliamentary government would become impossible and it is certainly a queer way of advertising the belief that all human affairs, even those between blood enemies, should be arranged by discussion—it is a very odd way of demonstrating that—there has been, besides the chi-iking, I admit, a certain amount of more articulate criticism, and perhaps I ought now to refer to that.
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    " Labour has won the first round"—that was the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. I have always noticed that military, or, failing military, pugilistic, metaphors seem to leap most quickly and readily to rather surprising lips. I should have thought that the British people, who understand sporting metaphors, might find something to react against in that—that Labour has won the first round. Against whom? I think that the British people may well inquire.
    There has been the charge that Her Majesty's Government—and I have no fondness for Her Majesty's Government, using the word "fondness" in its strict sense; I do not think that I find it impossible to see the mistakes made by Ministers, although I would not always agree about that with hon. Members opposite—there has been the charge that what Her Majesty's Government have done in the Canal Zone has somehow caused the events in Hungary. That seems to me to be absurd nonsense, and although Ministers have argued well against it, and I think that my right hon. Friend argued against it well this afternoon, yet it is difficult to argue against, because plain common nonsense is the most difficult thing in the world to argue against.
    Mr. Percy Daines: I think that it must be within the notice of the hon. Member that every correspondent who comes out of Hungary says that the Hungarian people are saying just that.
    Mr. Pickthom: That may be so. I have not read what has been said by all the foreign correspondents coming out of Hungary. It may be that they have all said that—I can hardly believe that it is true, but even if in some sense it is true I would ask the hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Daines), for whom I have the deepest respect, and who, in all these matters, I have always found a most fair-minded debater both in public and in private—to agree that it is possible to be mistaken, and that people in the mess which the Hungarians are—and God knows what a mess it is, and God knows I would not blame them for anything they might say now—are likely to look for someone to blame apart from the great bully who is kicking them to pieces. There is, of course, the technique—"Of course, I do not believe this but only pass it on for what it is worth"—

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    of "There's a woman called Mrs. Smith in Main Street who says it, and a woman in Bye Lane who knows it"—that technique has been used a great deal to pin all sorts of charges of which this is one. So that when this charge comes back, wherever it comes back from, it is not altogether unreasonable to suppose that it is, at least partially, an echo of that technique.
    The reasons for my speaking today were two. The first I have spoken about, perhaps at too great length, for which I apologise. Secondly, I thought that someone ought to speak who would avow, as I avow, that he has always been extremely critical both of the United Nations and what I might call United Nationism, and of the Israeli State, and of Zionism. So much, almost all of these debates—and, if I might warn my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench, far too much from Ministerial speakers—in the last few days has been conducted upon the basis of a quite uncritical, what is called "belief" in the United Nations. As a rule, that has meant also "belief" in Zionism.
    I do not, in that sense, myself "believe" in either of them, that their essence is sovereign and their effect miraculous. I thought that someone who did not ought to say so and to indicate one or two of the things which follow from that. I do not for a moment mean to suggest that I am unaware that the United Nations and Israel exist, or that I am not desirous, these things existing, that my country should take them into its calculations and should work as far as it can with these things, and should work, except under dire compulsion, if that should happen, in strict concordance with any agreements which it may have with these things, whether with the United Nations or the State of Israel. In that sense, of course, I believe in them. I always have believed in them and I still do. But we have not had sufficiently explained to us that we cannot always expect the United Nations to be quick and effective, and someone ought to go a little deeper and explain that it is not only the technique and behaviour of the United Nations but it is the essence of the thing which needs agonised reappraisal.
    There are the words "United Nations" themselves, to begin with, and anyone
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    seeing the words for the first time would think what a funny thing it is. There was a world public opinion when I was a boy, because then all governing persons accepted or at least thought it right to pretend to accept what one might call the European Christian concept of the universe. That is not so any longer. It is far from being so any longer. The difficulty now is far worse than the difficulty of Babel. If the only reason why we could not talk to Russians or Chinese or even to many Arabs, I am sorry to say, and many Israelis too, was that they had different languages and neither side knew the language of the other, how simple the world would be. It is very much deeper than that, and we must never use the words "United Nations" without remembering that they are disunited as never before in written history.
    There are other things about this—" Soviet volunteers," for instance. How can there be volunteers in a Communist country? The thing is plain nonsense, and nonsense will not last in the long run. That is all we can say—and Heaven knows it is not a very cheerful thing to say—to the Hungarians, or to the Poles, or for that matter, I would say, to the Yugoslavs, too. In the very long run nonsense will not continue to happen, but it happens for a long while.
    We cannot now pretend to believe that there is a common basis of desire for peace all over the world. We cannot any longer—and here I come back to what I said just now about the chi-iking in this House during the last fortnight—pretend to believe that in all cases of dangerous disagreement between States such disagreement can certainly be removed by discourse. We cannot any longer believe these things.
    We dare not forget—and I wonder how many people here remember—that Zionism was made into a State by the agreement of the United States and the U.S.S.R. in a United Nations operation. It was made into a sovereign State, and I have agreed ever since that we ought to work with it as fairly as we can.
    I am very sorry indeed that the hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. H. Lever) is not here today because I wanted to refer to the admirable speech that he made the other day. He did not quite say it but he almost said, or left

    795
    upon me the impression of meaning, that the Israeli State from the beginning was like a man with a knife at his throat. I wish he were here so that he could correct me if I am wrong, but I am being as honest about it as I can. He was talking about the question of aggression and he was saying that if anyone has a knife at his throat, it is not aggression to kick the other chap in the teeth.
    Mr. Healey: The Foreign Secretary said that.
    Mr. Pickthorn: The Foreign Secretary said that and the hon. Member for Cheetham took it up in the way that I have indicated. In such circumstances, this simple notion that wherever there is a row there is one who is the aggressor and one who is not becomes nonsense. We had better all remember that.
    Now I come to the more general question, apart from the question of aggression, whether sovereign States ought or ought not to use force. A lot of hon. Members opposite have said that this is the essence of the matter—using force without licence of the United Nations. I agree, that it is a thing that one would not wish to do unless one had to. I would agree but if it were an absolute rule, I do not understand why N.A.T.O., why the Warsaw Pact, and why the Tripartite Declaration? We had more eloquent stuff this afternoon about not having acted under the Tripartite Declaration. The Tripartite Declaration had no licence from the United Nations. These people pick and choose about which are the interests in which force should be used and which are not.
    Most remarkable of all on this principle is, what about the Hungarians? Are they right to use force? Are the inheritors of the tradition of revolution opposite going to tell us that no Government must ever use force?
    Mr. Donald Chapman: Nobody has said so.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Are they going to tell us that no Government is entitled to use force without licence of the United Nations—
    Mr. Chapman: No.
    Mr. Pickthorn:—but that individuals are so entitled?
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    I have one other thing to say about Palestine. I do not apologise for saying this, and those hon. Members whom I have always opposed on Palestine will at least do me this justice that I have always hammered away on this point, and that is the question of the refugees. I beg my right hon. Friends to put the word "refugees" down in block capitals, if they think it is worth putting down anything that I say. Democrats opposite seem to forget that the reason why there is a Zionist majority in Palestine is that there are nearly 1 million natural inhabitants of Palestine who are not in Palestine. Of all the breeding grounds of hate, that has been the worst and the most unpardonable.
    Of this I feel perfectly certain, that what is happening in that part of the world now will happen again—I do not know when, perhaps in five or ten years—unless certain things are done. I will not weary the House with what those things are, but one thing certainly is that the West should search its conscience and do all it possibly can to help with the refugees.
    We have had at great length an argument against the Government for having changed their objectives. I really think, speaking as an academic, that to a very large extent that is academic in the worst sense of the word. It is like people who because there are convenience words of conventional analysis like "character," "brains," "body," "physique," "soul," and so on, talk as if any or each of these things were observable entities. It seems to me that the clearest defence of the Government on this matter of the change of purpose is to be found in two quota-tons which I copied out of the New York Herald Tribune. One, dealing with the real reason for going to Egypt, was:
    "If Nasser were allowed to get away with seizing the Canal, then nothing could stop him annihilating Israel."
    I think that is true enough. The other was:
    "If Nasser were knocked out. then Russian influence in the Middle East would be knocked out."
    I think that is true enough. I am not entering just now into any question about the tactics, or even the "morality," of the matter. What I am saying at the moment is that these three things were immensely entangled with each other before Her Majesty's Government made

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    the decision they did, and to pretend that they could have been kept apart or that there is some duplicity in desiring B because A is what you had announced five minutes before seems to be a quite false argument.
    Now we are in the United Nations world again completely. I have already said what I want to say by way of warning that we should be careful how we behave there. We should be careful of not imagining there is some magic there. I heard the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) speaking a few weeks ago and saying something to the effect that it was quite unfair to criticise the United Nations; there was nothing wrong with the United Nations, and everything that was wrong was wrong with the nations which united. It is a slight parody of what he said, but I think he will bear me out, for there is not any United Nations apart from the nations which comprise it. There is nothing else. We had better be pretty careful about that.
    Now we are there, what is the best we can hope for? Can we hope for anything better than what I would call an "Eisenhower solution"? Incidentally, with ail this about force outside the United Nations being wrong, I can see no evidence of the United Nations ever believing in anything but force, nor can I see that Eisenhower has ever believed in anything but force. Are we now to hope for any solution better than what might be called an Eisenhower solution, like Korea or like Formosa or like Indo-China? I am not saying that worse things might not have happened in any of those countries. All I do say is that what did happen was nothing but solemn recognition of accomplished facts, accomplished facts which, for the most part, were highly regrettable.
    Are we now to hope for something better than that? I do not think we can unless, as Mr. Lippmann—I am sorry to quote; I do not often do it—wrote a week ago, unless President Eisenhower decided that the United Nations is to be an organ for the solution of the problems of Suez and Palestine and not a tribunal of judgment. He and other American publicists have been very strong in that desire, and have gone a very long way to indicating that, after all, we are just as indispensable to the United States as the United States is to us. I think none of
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    us should ever forget that, or ever think that we can contract out of great disasters by contracting out of greatness, because that, I am quite certain, is not within our compass though almost anything else might be.
    The last thing I wish to say is this. If it is true, as I believe it is, and as many American publicists write, that whatever the differences between Washington and Westminster at this moment now, the causes why they should unite are very much greater—if that is true, I would beg hon. and right hon. Gentlemen to believe that if that is true of relations between us and the United States, it may be true also of relations across the House between us and the Socialists, and that, if so, they should not too lightly assume that all the righteousness is theirs. We all know, the poet told us, that the soul, when it is hot for certainties, is apt to get a dusty answer. We are not souls. Politicians get much dustier answsers when they are hot for certainties. Politicians who always want the Government they support or the country for which they fight to be 100 per cent. right will get pretty dusty answers. Nobody is ever 100 per cent. right. The other thing that never happens is that it is never six of one and a half-dozen of the other—never. I would ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to stop and consider whether this country, as compared with any of the other countries in this story—and I have left out a good many quotations I have in connection with it, especially American quotations about Mr. Dulles—
    Mr. R. J. Mellish: The hon. Member is cutting out back benchers too.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Consider whether it may be we are 51 per cent. right as compared with other countries, whether it may not even be true that we on this side may be 51 per cent. right as compared with them, if with real sincerity, not with the sincerity which we all aver far too often but with real sincerity, that is to say, having thought the matter out as hard as they are capable of thinking and being prepared to go to the stake for the result—if they cannot, with that kind of sincerity, reject the proposition I have put to them, then I beg them to do all they can to make our country in these terrible days a united country.
    Mr. Mellish: On a point of order. May I, with a sense of humility, ask for your help, Mr. Deputy-Speaker? This debate is on the Suez crisis, and some of us got in earlier when Parliament was recalled. Most of us who were called by the Chair decided that it would be improper to try to get in again as obviously we could not hope to catch your eye. I understand that some of the hon. Members you are now calling have in fact spoken in the Suez debate, leaving out a number of back benchers who have never spoken. I merely want your advice and help, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. What is the position? It is awfully frustrating for many of us.
    Mr. K. Zilliacus (Manchester, Gorton): Further to that point of order—
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If I answer one point of order at a time I think I shall be doing fairly well. The point is that we are now back on the main Question, and anyone who has spoken before on the main Question is not entitled to speak again except by leave of the House. As to those who have spoken on the Amendments, that is a different matter; it is not the same Question that we are on now. Is that the point?
    Mr. Mellish: My understanding is that anybody who catches your eye has the right to speak, and that on this occasion, as you say we are now back on the debate on the Address; but it means that some hon. Members have in fact managed to speak twice on the same subject. Surely the Chair is alive to the fact that a number of back benchers have not spoken on the subject at all. As regards those who have spoken on the subject, I would say with great respect that at least we have heard them once and by this time have gathered what they have in mind.
    Mr. Zilliacus: Further to that point of order. I am an extreme case of what my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) has been saying. I have been absent from the House between 10th October and 8th November, and I am very anxious to get into this debate if I possibly can.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have every sympathy with the hon. Member. There is an enormous list on both sides, but I must point out that up to now the speeches have been pretty long.
    Mr. Mellish: May I say, with great respect, that I was not attempting to put the case for my hon. Friend the Member for Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) but was thinking rather of my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Daines).
    5.48 p.m.
    Mr. F. J. Bellenger: Not having spoken at all in this debate, I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) will now be able to get the benefit of my views at first hand.
    The hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Pickthorn) and I have been in this House for a good many years—21 years, as he said. I have listened to him on many occasions with interest, trying to get at the point of view which he has been desirous of expressing to the House. I am bound to say that, listening to him today, I felt perplexed and mystified at the tortuous wandering of his mind, which I suggest to him, as one older Member to another older Member of this House, was hardly at all directed to the subject we are in all earnestness discussing this afternoon.
    I can quite understand passions being aroused by the events that have taken place, and I hope that in the course of my remarks I shall be able to reason with little emotion as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) this afternoon in a well-documented and well-argued statement of the facts. I know that it is not always possible to arrive at the facts. As I have listened to all the speeches made in the House since the Suez event occurred, I am quite certain that all hon. Members, except those in the very narrow circle in touch with these events—the Cabinet, for example—must be in some doubt as to what has happened in some respects. On the main events, not only on this side of the House but, as has been shown in previous debates, on the other side also, there are some hon. Members who are in considerable doubt to say the least.
    When the hon. Member for Carlton was complaining about what he was pleased to call the "chi-iking"—a rather inelegant expression, I thought, for one who at one time represented a university—by the Opposition and to substantiate his argument brought in as evidence Mr. Oliver Cromwell, I thought at once that the hon. Member was going dangerously

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    near to an exposition of Fascist government—that is to say, Government by one set of people to the exclusion of any opposition.
    The hon. Member may recollect, as I and many other hon. Members present today recollect, the debates that took place before the war on the Nazi issue. Perhaps the hon. Member recollects the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) who, in season and out of season, criticised his own Government of the day for their action or inaction and who, indeed, on one occasion turned to his own Government and said words to the effect that British diplomacy had suffered a total and unmitigated defeat. Would that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford were able today to take his part in these debates and tell us, in words as eloquent as he used in those days, how in the eyes of the world, whatever we may say, British diplomacy has suffered a tremendous defeat.
    Surely that should be sufficient justification, in a free and democratic Parliament like this, for hon. Members, wherever they sit, to express their point of view, sometimes in emphatic language, at the harm and danger that many of us think the Government have done our country. We are sent here by our constituents and we are entitled to say, and we do say, that under the leadership of the present Government our standing as a nation has deteriorated in the eyes of the world, and that this nation is no longer able to lead the world as she used, to do—if necessary, alone, as we did at a certain period in the last war. No longer, I think, after the terrible mistakes that have been made over Egypt, will anybody listen to any glorious words such as the right hon. Member for Woodford was wont to use about our country.
    I do not want to inflame passions or to rouse any emotions. I will try to keep my emotions under control, although I am bound to say in the absence of the Prime Minister, for whom I had great respect in pre-war days—and I listened to his courageous resignation speech—that I am sorely tried on this occasion.
    I not only do not want to rouse emotions, but neither do I want to say anything than can be used by some of those international crooks who are repeating to hon. Members words spoken in this House
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    and using them as evidence against us. I have nothing but contempt for some of those people who think that they can use words spoken by a free democracy to buttress and reinforce their own actions. I shall have something to say during my remarks about some of these dictators.
    We know that both Egypt and Russia have used some of the remarks that have been uttered here to show that some of their actions have been justified. They have not been justified at all and, whatever the outside world may think about our country, I think that the outside world—with the possible exception of Mr. Nehru, I am sorry to say—is only too ready to proclaim the injustice and the criminality of some of those nations with whom we are at present involved.
    It is difficult to try to arrive at the facts, and therefore it must be difficult to arrive at the conclusions, but surely hon. Members opposite, in the calmness as it is now—after all the dust has settled—will recognise and concede us this point. Whatever we may say as part of Her Majesty's Opposition, there is an enormous volume of opinion in the world otherwise friendly towards this country which has been antagonised and, to say the least, terribly disappointed at the action which Britain took with France in its incursion into Egypt. Therefore,. I say it will take a long time to recover our position, if ever indeed that is possible. One must only hope that there will come a time—at the moment we cannot say under what leadership it will be—when the world will pay some regard to what Britain says.
    Hon. and right hon. Members opposite, whatever they say, cannot deny that our position has deteriorated considerably in the Middle East. We are in a situation there which, in my opinion, is fraught with gravity for our country. We cannot seem to get authenticated the news which says that Russia is pushing arms into Syria—I do not know, and the Government will not tell us, even if they know; but we do know now that very substantial arms and military stores of great potency were discovered in Egypt when Israel invaded that country. We now have evidence that Russia has fomented strife, and we can only assume that she will continue to do that. I do not for one moment think that Russia will make a direct attack on this country, because she knows

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    that it would mean world war, and Russia knows that if world war comes she will be blotted out whoever else may be extinguished. Nevertheless, in my opinion Russia will do all that she can to foment strife in the Middle East.
    What protection or defence have we got against it now? It is impossible for this country to stand alone, certainly against a country like Russia. Our only hope is in association with other nations like the United States of America. Our only hope is to try to get the United Nations on our side. Even if some of the actions and words of the United Nations may not be very effective, at least they are better than nothing. Today, I venture to suggest, we stand naked in view of possible aggression in the Middle East which may come, and, I think, will come.
    What was the purpose of those arms to Egypt? Was it a peaceful purpose? Everybody knows it was not. Why did Russia provide them? For love of the eyes of Colonel Nasser? Certainly not. Russia is a materialist country, guided by a materialist doctrine. The arms were there because the Russians thought it would pay them to supply them. It cost them quite a lot of money to send all those arms into Egypt. Their whole purpose was to destroy British power, whatever it meant, for whatever it stood, in the Middle East. They have not changed one iota, and they will attempt to do it as and when they can.
    In these circumstances, how can we defend ourselves if we should be involved in an attack, as we should be if any aggression took place against Israel? In spite of what the Prime Minister said about the Tripartite Declaration, I cannot imagine that we should stand idly by if Israel were attacked by one of the Arab States today. I cannot believe it. Therefore, I must assume, as we were guarantors of the Tripartite Declaration, that we should not stand by, doing nothing, and, therefore, it follows that we should be involved.
    What concerns me and many other people, too, on both sides of the House, is who would be with us in those circumstances. Would America be with us? The keystone of our policy, apart from the United Nations, because we can all see the many defects of the United Nations organisation, should be an
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    alliance with the United States. The Americans may not be very easy partners. Nevertheless, they are the only partners who can bring to bear so much of what counts in the world—not only the words of Mr. Eisenhower but the tremendous military might and industrial potential they have in their country.
    We have been told by the Prime Minister—he used this as justification for his actions—that Britain at all costs and in all circumstances must have oil from the Middle East if we are to keep our industries going. Everybody takes that for granted, but how are we to get it? It is quite on the cards, even though some of those countries will want to sell their oil because of the big revenues it brings them, that they may not want to sell it to us. It is certain our supplies will be interrupted for many a long day to come. I am wondering what the Government have in prospect for ensuring those oil supplies which, they say, we must have.
    For instance, why must it be left to a Greek shipowner to build the large tankers which, so I am told, are a possible means of getting oil to this country as quickly or at any rate as cheaply as bringing it through the Canal?
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Private enterprise.
    Mr. Bellenger: It may well be. I should have thought that the exponents of private enterprise on the Government benches would have been the first to have urged the Government to get on with the job by providing large tankers.
    We do not even know whether America is coming to our aid in the supply of oil—America, one of our allies. I do not want to say anything about Mr. Dulles who is very sick and more or less retired from politics, at any rate for the time being, but I am bound to say—and it ought to be said in this country—that there is a very large question mark over the actions of our American allies in the last few months. I have stated my belief that we should have a strong alliance with America, and so it is in all friendliness that I say that there are in this country millions of people who have nothing but good will for the Americans who cannot understand some of the things which the American Secretary of State and even President Eisenhower have done or not done in the hour of Britain's trouble.

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    After all, America must know what Colonel Nasser's intentions are. Yet Mr. Dulles was sent, I believe, by the President of the United States to present a pistol or a revolver to Colonel Nasser. [HON. MEMBERS: "General Neguib."] Are we to blame if we consider that a significant gesture, or that it was meant to show that a token of force in the Middle East was a possible way of solving some of the problems there? I do not know. Perhaps somebody on the other side fo the Atlantic will explain why that gift was made.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: It is not for me to answer the question, but to the best of my recollection it was a very decorative and ornamental pistol given to General Neguib.
    Mr. Bellenger: It makes no difference whether it was given to Neguib or to Nasser. Neguib was the President or the Prime Minister of the revolutionary government. The fact remains, and many millions of people think, that whether it was an ornamental pistol or not, much better and more suitable presents could have been made. That is all I am saying about that action. Although the Colonial Secretary has corrected me on a point of detail, namely, that the pistol was given to General Neguib, my argument still stands, that it was a most inappropriate present to make.
    The United Nations and its Charter are all very good and well, but I look back to the days when we had the Covenant and the League of Nations, and they failed. Why did they fail? Because those who made up the League of Nations would not take decisive action at the right time. The Government need not expect me, because of that remark of mine, to support the action which they have taken. I certainly think it was taken at the wrong time. If it was right to take it at all, it should not have been taken at that time and in that way.
    However, the League of Nations failed because it was based only on a covenant. That is just why the Ten Commandments are broken every day of the year. Only when a breaker of the Commandments is arraigned before a court on a charge can a verdict be given and a sentence imposed. Therefore, it stands to reason
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    that the United Nations, although it is probably the only sheet anchor this troubled world has to keep it out of war, is not a fully effective instrument as it is constituted at present, and I would urge the Government to take the appropriate opportunity to try to remedy that. Some of my hon. Friends have tried, with a plan of world government and so forth, to present proposals to all sorts of people. I do not believe myself that that is the speediest way. I believe in going the way that will get me where I want to go to in the shortest possible time. The world is not concerned with the millennium a century or two hence although we have to work for it, no doubt. What it is concerned with is trying to bring some sort of law and order to what is at present a lawless world.
    I have said that I think that the keystone of our policy should be alliance with the United States. I wish to say one other thing with which, I know, many hon. Members on both sides of the House will disagree. I think that the time will come when a strong alliance between this country and Germany will probably keep the peace in Europe far better than any other organisation. We had the Kellogg Pact and the Treaty of Locarno and all the rest, but they were unable to stand against Hitler. I believe that it may be possible for such an alliance with Germany to maintain the peace of Europe. Therefore, I welcome the attempt that has been made to draw the two greatest industrial countries in Europe together under the common market proposals.
    I have voted against the Government on more than one occasion in these debates, and therefore I should attempt to justify my actions. It is true that both parties are subject to what are known as three-line Whips. We are all party men, say what we will. Very few of us like to go against our party, but we are each free and elected Members of Parliament. We have been elected to say what we want to say, and say it on behalf of our constituents. The only people who can say "No" to us are our constituents. Thank goodness, we have once every four or five years an election when our constituents can say what they think.
    I believe that if the Government were to go to the country today—and that would be the ultimate test—they would

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    be out of office tomorrow. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That is my feeling. It may be that I am wrong, but there are many people within the Tory Party itself who think the same. Hon. Members have had letters—though I have had only one—from professing Tory constituents saying how sadly disappointed they are with their own Government. That is some evidence, even though it may not be overwhelming, that what I am saying is right.
    If the Government were to go to the country they would be repudiated. It is all very well to say, "What does that matter? Other Governments have been repudiated too." It does show that even those who have been lifelong Conservatives are turning against the Government because of an act which the Government may think is right but which their own supporters think is wrong.
    I am very sad in my own heart at the fact that for the first time since 1939 the House is divided on fundamental foreign policy. I know that there are some of my hon. Friends who say, "Away with bipartisanship," but I cannot forget that it was Mr. Ernest Bevin, a good trade unionist and probably the best Foreign Secretary we have had for many years, was the one who instigated a foreign policy which for a time even a Conservative Government followed.
    When the country is in the position it is in today it is surely the time when the House of Commons ought to be united. If the House and the country is not united, how can we blame the world for throwing brickbats at us? We are divided and disunited, and it is no good hon. and right hon. Members opposite blaming us on this side of the House for it. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite, if they can, must put the matter right. It is the only thing that can bring back unity to the House and to the country. At the moment, we are split wide open because of the Government's action.
    6.15 p.m.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: I do not want to follow the speech of the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) in very much detail, except to take up his remark that the British situation has deteriorated in the Middle East. A far more important and far more accurate statement would be to say that the situation in the Middle East has in general deteriorated. That
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    is the real problem which faces the House today. We have somehow to achieve a general settlement of the outstanding problems of the refugees, of the Israel-Arab frontier and of water usage in the area, both in the Nile and elsewhere. These are the root problems which must be settled, and until they are settled we must keep everything else in proper perspective.
    I do not propose to follow the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), the shadow Foreign Secretary, in his interesting ex cathedra pronouncement about when one is an aggressor and when one is not. I should like to quote in reply to his remarks a few sentences chosen from a Report to the League of Nations by the Permanent Advisory Commission on Armaments in 1923, signed by most of the major nations. They are:
    "A breach of the frontier by the troops of another country does not always mean that the latter country is the aggressor. Particularly in the case of a small State, a military offensive of as rapid a character as possible may be the means, perhaps the only means, whereby a weaker party can defend itself against the stronger."
    What we have to consider is not the ideological exchange, the various speeches and innumerable resolutions of the United Nations and the various individual crises of conscience which have befallen some of my hon. Friends. We must consider the facts as they are. It is the facts that perturb the country and should perturb the House rather than questions of party advantage.
    The realities in the Middle East have become extraordinarily clearer in the last few days. First, the threat of Nasser is much clearer than it was before this Anglo-French action was taken. I have in my hand a document, not of world-shaking importance, but of interest because it was captured from the Third Egyptian Division by the Israelis on Mount Sinai. I shall lay the document, but I call the attention of the House to the third paragraph, which was issued to commanding officers down to battalion level and concerns the training of Egyptian soldiers in their section. It states:
    "Every commander should be prepared and prepare his troops for the unavoidable war with Israel, in order to achieve our supreme objective, namely annihilation of Israel, and its complete destruction in as little time as possible and by fighting against her as brutally and cruelly as possible."
    Mr. A. Woodburn: Is the document in English?
    Mr. Fraser: I have a photostat copy, and no doubt the right hon. Gentleman, who speaks such fluent Arabic, will be able to understand it.
    The other reality is the size of the Russian threat in the Middle East. Dr. Yadin, a world-famous archaeologist and the former Chief of Staff of the Israel Army, described at a Press conference today some of the massive fortifications and preparations which have been discovered by the Israelis in Sinai, and which it was clear had been prepared for a joint Syrian-Egyptian attack on Israel, connived at by Russia and supported by Russian arms.
    Those are some of the facts which have emerged. A further fact which has emerged is that, whatever be the moralities of the situation, the Israelis spoiling attack and the British bombardment have put back any Egyptian, Syrian or Russian offensive for some months, if not for a year or so.
    It is now clear also that the British and French intervention has stopped what my right hon. Friend described as the spread of a forest fire in the area. The other things which have made it possible to stop its spread are the two things which hon. Gentlemen opposite have attacked again and again. One is the Bagdad Pact, even if it is a bit shaky. The other is the Jordan Treaty.
    We are left with a breathing space, no more than that, in which to decide what our policy should be now. That is the issue, not the bandying of legal arguments showing where the United Nations has failed, pointing to failure after failure in the Middle East. It is no use talking about the 200 resolutions which were defied, the resolution which told Israel to go back and she did not go back, the resolution which stated that shipping should go through the Canal and it did not go through the Canal. Such arguments are sterile and empty. Instead, we should face the facts of the situation, and the sooner that hon. Gentlemen opposite do so, the better their supporters throughout the country will be pleased.
    An overall settlement of the problems which I have outlined is essential, and those problems can only be solved by the
    810
    intervention of all the major Powers. It is not possible for the United Nations organisation, or for a so-called U.N. police force, to deal with these matters. What is at stake is the fate of that area, which is more important to this country and to Western Europe than to anyone but the Arabs. It is vital, therefore, that there should be a force in the area able to impose the necessary conditions and not one which is a mere hotch-potch of bedlam, a collection of heterogeneous military units which can be of no possible use.
    I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite this one question: Supposing there had been spread out along the hundreds of miles of the Israeli-Egyptian frontier the merry men of General Burns armed with submachine guns, do they believe that it would have been possible to stop the movement of Israeli troops or any counter-movement by the Egyptians? We must face realities in the Middle East and not play at U.N.O. soldiering. Some of the talk of an international force is merely a delusion which will have a shattering effect on the world when it is exposed.
    I believe, therefore, that the Prime Minister was correct when he said that we would have to decide whether the suggested U.N. force was of a sufficient strength to undertake the necessary obligations in the area.
    Mr. I. J. Pitman: Surely such a force is capable of getting alliances from the big Powers? The important point is that it should take the initiative in carrying out the action and give a moral cloak to the others for doing it in their name.
    Mr. Fraser: That may well be so, but if the size of the force is incompatible with the requirements, I do not believe that any amount of moral cloaking will benefit anyone.
    Two minor conditions are essential. One is that we should see that the Canal is open and guaranteed by a world authority. Otherwise it is not impossible that Colonel Nasser, who has revived the age-old struggle between Babylon and Cairo, between Nuri and himself, will see to it, if he is left alone responsible for opening the Canal, that its opening is delayed sufficiently to ruin Iraq by cutting off her oil supplies from the world. We have already seen that the people who

    811
    undertook the destruction of the Iraq oil pipelines were not marauders or bandits but Syrians in Syrian uniform.
    I know that the Americans have been passing through an election period. I know that for the settlement of the major problems of the Middle East, one of which is the refugees, American assistance is necessary. I wish, however, that the Americans could rid themselves of a delusion which has been controlling American policy in the Middle East, the belief that the French and ourselves are old-fashioned imperialists to whom the Arab world will not talk, whilst they come not merely with clean hands but with hands loaded with gifts. The fact is that today we and the Americans are not dealing, in Egypt and Syria, with simple Arab people but with Soviet satellites. Until that is realised by the Americans, and by certain hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, our critics will meet one pitfall after another.
    Mr. Woodburn: If the hon. Gentleman is satisfied that we are dealing with Soviet satellites in the Middle East, would he tell us why Britain and France took on this job alone and all the risks involved in tackling Soviet satellites?
    Mr. Fraser: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman has been reading not only the Scottish, but also the other newspapers. He must realise that the man who gives orders today in Cairo is not Nasser but Ambassador Kissilev. As to the other point raised by the right hon. Gentleman, it is to the eternal glory of this country and France that we intervened.
    The situation facing us today in the Middle East has deteriorated, and is deteriorating, because of Russian intervention. I believe that the steps taken have done something to stop some of those plans which were almost on the point of maturing. I believe that the situation facing us is the same as it has been for the last ten years but in heightened form: namely, to find a general solution for the problem of that area which, if necessary, must be imposed not by the force of Colombia, Nicaragua or what-have-you, but by the determination and the decision of ourselves, the French and the Americans.
    I believe that this is the only possible course. As my right hon. Friend the
    812
    Colonial Secretary pointed out this afternoon in a noble speech, that solution does not involve the destruction of the Arab world or the exploitation of its people, since we stand before the world as a country which has done more for the underdeveloped peoples than has any other in history. We hope to do the same today, and, given resolve, given determination and given rejection of the feeble and squeamish points put by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, I believe that this country can yet rise again.
    6.30 p.m.
    Mr. Percy Daines: I want to return for a moment to the speech of the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Pickthorn). I do so out of no disrespect for the hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. H. Fraser), with the subject matter of whose speech I propose to deal at some length.
    The hon. Member for Carlton rightly said at the end of his speech that these are dark and sombre days. I believe they are days which are far too serious in their consequences for any of us to be subjective in our approach and to make mere party points. I think I can claim that on the various occasions when I have had the good fortune to address the House I have tried to be strictly objective about these great matters, and I propose to be the same today.
    The hon. Member for Carlton—here I hope to have a little attention from the Government Front Bench—said a lot about the conduct of Government and the House. He deprecated the practice of trying to conduct government by question and answer. I believe that it is a paraphrase of what he meant. It is an interesting coincidence—I do not say that facetiously; I am speaking from at least main notes—that the first part of my speech deals precisely with that subject.
    What worries me is the practice which has grown up in the House—it has happened in these debates and in previous debates—of Ministers reserving their last statement until the end of the debate. I hold most emphatically that the House owes it to itself that a Ministerial statement should be made at the beginning of the debate, setting out the facts, and that those facts should be subject to debate. It is quite wrong and a gross misuse of

    813
    the House to delay new matter until the end of the debate. A very typical example was that of the President of the Board of Trade a few nights ago.
    However alarming that is, what alarms me much more—I am speaking only for myself now—is my complete lack of confidence in Ministerial statements. In passing, I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) that all this talk about being against a bipartisan policy seems to me to be wholly fallacious and dangerous. I believe that one's attitude to foreign policy should be determined by what one honestly believes to be the interests of the whole country and the whole world. Therefore, obviously I regret a position where I find myself at differences with half the country or with the Government. It is only by unity that we can bring our maximum strength to bear, and one's policy has to be settled on the facts of the time.
    Similarly, it is equally stupid to talk about a Socialist foreign policy. By all means, let hon. Members on this side of the House try to apply Socialist principles, but what we can do in the world for foreign policy is determined by what other countries will allow us to do. Therefore, I hope that we shall start forgetting some of the phrases and get closer to reality.
    I repeat that I am considerably disturbed about the trend of Ministerial statements. Under the Labour Governments and under the Administration of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), I always accepted a Ministerial statement as an objective statement of fact. I must say quite candidly that I do not do so under the present Administration. I am not prepared to accept their statements unless there is a check and a double check. I will give the House some examples.
    There was the occasion when Government supporters were obviously very disturbed. The Prime Minister came here and pulled the Canal Users' Association out of the hat. Immediately hon. Members cheered. What the Prime Minister conveyed to the House—he certainly conveyed it to me—was that the American Government were in full support and would probably use force behind it. That was completely false. Events in the succeeding days showed that there was no evidence of that at all, and there could
    814
    not possibly have been, because how could America make that commitment a week and a half before the election? My immediate personal reaction was against it, but I say that it was a gross misuse of the House.
    Let me give another case which I found equally alarming. The Foreign Secretary was having a considerable hammering. He was being challenged by my hon. Friends about printed literature which was being distributed to the Egyptians. He was under considerable pressure. Right at the psyoholcgical moment, along came the Prime Minister, with a news flash about the fall of Port Said, to dig out his right hon. and learned Friend. Was that fair? Port Said had not fallen. We knew that next day. Is that a fair way to treat the House?
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Surely the hon. Member remembers that what the Prime Minister announced on that occasion was that talks were going on between the local commander and our commander about a cease-fire. That was absolutely true. Afterwards, from Cairo, no doubt under Russian pressure, the local commander of the Egyptians was told, to resume fighting.
    Mr. Daines: I believe that what the Prime Minister said was a little qualified, but what hon. Members opposite took it to mean, as they were calculated to take it, was that it was a victory which meant that operations were nearly at an end.
    I now come to the question of the police force, which is a more general point. Can anybody doubt that the police force idea is something at which the Government grabbed after Lester Pearson had put it up? It seems to me that we have arrived at the stage when the Government are more concerned about rallying their supporters than about the external consequences of the action which they take.
    I said earlier how much I regretted that we do not find ourselves in agreement on these grave issues. I do not know whether I am being accurate now, but, so far as I can find out, there has been no attempt by the Government to take the Leader of the Opposition into consultation on these grave issues. I do not know how hon. Members feel today. We all seem much calmer and things appear to be much more leisurely, but it was only a week ago that most of us felt that

    815
    there were signs that we were slipping into the third world war. I certainly felt that. It is easy enough to be calm today, but there were distinct signs that a series of chain reactions were taking place which would plunge us into the third world war.
    Again, was the Leader of the Opposition consulted about the initial step? How can we get a united country unless there is some degree of consultation? I should have thought that, when a Government embark upon grave steps which may set off terrible events, its first duty is to consult the Opposition. I do not disguise the fact that I have always been a great admirer of the right hon. Member for Woodford. If he had faced that situation, I cannot believe that he would not have consulted us fully in an attempt at getting a united country. The present position is a disastrous one.
    If that is what has happened at home, what about abroad? Proposals were being made for visits to America. How does our name stand abroad when Mr. Haggerty, President Eisenhower's Press Secretary, characterises proposals for meetings of Heads of Governments as "cock-eyed"? Could anything be more humiliating than that a proposal that the Heads of Governments should meet should be characterised as "cock-eyed"? Such is the extent to which we have fallen.
    Then there is the wonderful situation with regard to the Bagdad Pact where Iraq—the only Arab country where anyone at the top would like to show friendship—has said that she would take part only provided we kept out.
    I now turn to the remarks of the hon. Member for Stafford and Stone. It is rather remarkable how late in the day the Government have been uncovering the Russian plot. Is there any new fact in the great disclosures which they have been making, even about the amount of arms that Colonel Nasser has? Surely it is not unreasonable to surmise that the amount of British arms is equal to anything that Russia has supplied. All these facts are known.
    Mr. H. Fraser: It is a new fact that a very extensive area has been built up in the Sinai Peninsula—and also that the quantity of arms discovered was much larger than was expected.
    Mr. Daines: I quite agree, and I am going to follow up that argument, but there has been very clear evidence of these matters for quite a long time now. I dealt with that point in a speech which I made in July. I said that in the Middle East we have the peculiar phenomenon of tightly-organised Communist parties—some wholly non-worker. In Syria and in the Lebanon there are tight cadres of about 4,000 or 5,000 highly-trained people, all of the professional class, who are trained for the purpose of revolution.
    Hon. Members may dismiss that fact because of the small numbers involved, but in this situation, when there is the fluidity of the mob in the towns, acting with the backing of the Soviet Union, the whole menace can be quite clearly seen. Of course it exists; it has existed for months. There is nothing new in it, and the Government should have known of it.
    The idea of a plot does not seem to take us very far. The simple fact is that, however much we may dislike it, Russia is in the ascendancy in the Middle East today in every Arab country. We may have our Nuri Saids—or our friends who are trying to hold it back—but it is there, because every Arab believes that it was only because of Russian intervention that we stopped our attack upon Egypt. We cannot escape the facts. I am fed up with propaganda and speeches. What frightens me is the facts, and these are the facts which I am trying to put before the House today.
    What of Egypt's propaganda line? It is that they would have beaten the Israelis but for the stab in the back that we gave them. I am not saying that I agree with that; I am merely stating that that is what the Egyptians say. That is one of their most potent weapons. The Government have not removed Nasser; they have built him up. That is the trouble. I am sorry to say it, but my sincere belief is that as the weeks go by we shall have to face a position where we are out of the Middle East, and either Russia or America has taken our place. I hope to goodness the Americans will have a true sense of leadership and wake up in time to take up their responsibility, and so save us all.
    I now turn to what has been happening in Central Europe. I have never believed in the "New Look" of Russia. I have

    817
    made speech after speech in this House saying so. I have been rather amused when hon. Members opposite have come up to me after I have spoken and have quite candidly said, "All your speeches on foreign policy seem to have been on the right of me". I do not mind, because I have never been worried about party lines in these matters; I have been concerned with the facts. I have never really believed in the Russian "New Look," and in July I attacked the Prime Minister for the way in which he was trying to sell it.
    The real charge against the Government in regard to the events in Hungary and Egypt is that in the first two or three weeks, when the spontaneous uprising began in Hungary, and the workers began to take part and when the army showed its hand, a point was reached which could have become a crucial turning point in history. If our Government, together with the American and French Governments, had seized the opportunity to try to prove whether the "New Look" really meant what it was supposed to mean—if we had told the Russians that if the satellites regained their real independence then we would gradually withdraw from Europe—there was a sporting chance that a deal could have been done. That might have been a great turning point in history.
    But it never happened, because this Government were so bent upon their Suez adventure, the chips were down and the Russians moved in. That is one of the gravest charges which can be made against the Government. Despite all the propaganda that has been put forward, they have missed this very great opportunity. If there is to be any attempt at trading with the Russians for a settlement in the Middle East in return for the perpetuation of slavery for the peoples of Central Europe I shall oppose it for all I am worth. The people of Poland and Hungary have proved their desire for freedom.
    In his party political broadcast at the Mansion House the Prime Minister used a reference to his previous speech as a justification for his actions, and I want to plead, by way of an excuse, that I have been browsing through some speeches made in this House some time ago, and I want to quote from a speech made on 11th May, 1953. The hon. Member who was speaking said:
    "What are the facts about Hungary?"
    Sir Robert Boothby (Aberdeenshire, East): Who said it?
    Mr. Daines:
    "In 1945—which was the year of one of the last two free elections—the total Communist vote was 17 per cent. of those who actually voted. In 1947, it was 23·5 per cent. It is perfectly clear that the reason why the Communists were able to take over control in Hungary was that there was a Russian Army on the borders."
    Let me give another quotation:
    "This is a grim story, and I believe it should be on the conscience of every one of us that there are millions of people similar to ourselves living under slave conditions today, in which a man is afraid to say a word to his neighbour, even to a member of his family, lest, because of it, the State police get him. I wish that some of those who look upon the Czechs, the Poles and Hungarians as expendable would live a little closer to a police State, to see what that really means."
    My third quotation is as follows:
    "History shows, and has shown particularly in the last few years, that the greatest human sentiment to move men and women, even the men and women in the satellite countries—and I have had intimate contact with them—is the sense of nationhood. The national feeling is the predominant one of all the human feelings. It is far stronger than the appeal of Communism itself … but it is no good deluding ourselves. When the call comes it is our demand and our right to preserve for ourselves that which we know and love."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th May, 1953; Vol. 515, c. 939–942.]
    That was true in May, 1953, and it is doubly true today, I do not believe that Russia can go back to the time of the big smile. There was a chance, but there it is.
    I also think that we too can make a profound mistake in our foreign policy. I know it is difficult to say this today. but we have become so obsessed with the Middle East that we tend to forget that the main objective of Russian policy is the control of Western Europe. Of course they wanted the satellites. That was the old Stalinist cushion of defence. They wanted them also for springboards, and they have become disturbed. But the main objective is the same. It is the control of Western Germany so that from the heart-land of Europe they can control the world. Whatever our local circumstances, let us always keep clear in our mind that that is their objective.
    These are strange and terrible days. I believe that the consequences of this last fortnight will be quite different from those which followed Munich, but will be just

    819
    as important in history. A great convulsion has seized us. I believe—and I regret to say it—that we are condemned by most of the world. I regret to say to our Prime Minister that he commands little trust outside his own party. As I said at the beginning of my speech, he is undoubtedly discredited in America.
    I suppose that hon. Members who follow me in this debate will be entitled to say, if they care to refer to my speech, "That is all very well, but what are you offering? What proposals can you make." I tell the House quite honestly tonight that I feel completely baffled and bewildered because it all seems to me to come back to one thing. Our Prime Minister—and he is ours irrespective to whatever party we belong—has rendered many services to this country. I sincerely believe, and I say it with regret and sorrow, that he should now perform his last great service and give up his seals of office so that somebody can follow him who can again restore unity to our stricken country and give unity and leadership to the world.
    6.54 p.m.
    Lieut.-Colonel Wentworth Schofield: I do not propose to detain the House for any great length of time, but I wish, first, to refer to a remark made by my hon. Friend the Member for Carlton (Mr. Pickthorn) regarding some of the allegations that have been made since the beginning of this debate to the effect that the action of the French and the British in intervening in Egypt had touched off the massacre of the Hungarians by the Russians. If anyone really believes that I would ask him to consider the following points.
    As one who has had some experience of the moving of large masses of tanks over considerable distances, I should like to refer to some of the difficulties which have to be faced in such an operation. Heavy tanks cannot be moved over large distances on their own tracks. If an attempt were made to take large masses of tanks across Hungary to Budapest under their own power the result would be that they would be off the road long before they got there. Tanks can be transported over long distances only by rail on flats, and only twelve to fifteen tanks can be taken at a time on a train. Alternatively, they can be moved on transporters one at a time.
    820
    We know that the events in Hungary came very quickly after the invasion of Egypt by Israel. It was only a matter of days. But what did we find? We found that Budapest was ringed by 1,800 tanks. But it is totally impossible to bring such a large number of tanks across Hungary to Budapest in a matter of days. Therefore, I suggest that those tanks had been brought to assembly points within striking distance of Budapest long before Israel ever attacked Egypt. That is a point which I think hon. Members should seriously consider. I am not making a party point; I am merely pointing out something of which I have had actual experience.
    In February last, when the debate on foreign affairs took place, I drew the attention of the House to the large supplies of Egyptian cotton which were going to Russia in exchange for Russian tanks, aeroplanes and other arms. I described the deal at that time as mischief making on the part of Russia and as an endeavour to exert economic pressure on Egypt. I warned the Egyptians that they would find that cotton in the hands of Russia would be a greater threat to their economy than guns in the hands of Israel.
    Recent events in the Middle East have disclosed that the accumulation of arms in Egyptian hands is of quite considerable proportions. If, as Colonel Nasser told me on Christmas morning, he had obtained them in exchange for cotton, then all I can say is that the quantity of cotton which has changed hands must amount to several hundreds of thousands of bales.
    Let us look for a moment at the consequences which could arise and probably have arisen from the placing of so much Egyptian cotton in Russian hands. Most hon. Members know that Egypt's economy is based entirely on cotton, and that the price which she obtains for that cotton determines whether she is prosperous or otherwise. Her annual crop represents about I million to 1¼ million bales a year. The type of cotton which she grows is what is known as long staple cotton, which is used for making the better quality goods.
    Let us consider what motives Russia might have had for buying such large quantities of this long staple cotton from Egypt. The first thing I ask the House to realise is that Russia is not normally a user of long staple cotton, for the simple reason that she has not the machinery

    821
    necessary to spin it. She just does not possess the machinery necessary to handle large amounts of long staple cotton.
    On the other hand, she had obtained in exchange for weapons of war—of which she might have had great difficulty in disposing anywhere else—a non-perishable commodity which she can turn into money at any time she wishes to throw that cotton on the markets of the world. If at any time she puts that weight of cotton on the market the effect will be to crash the price of Egyptian cotton and smash Egypt's economy.
    By her deal of arms for cotton Egypt has placed herself in a strait-jacket and Russia has obtained an economic weapon with which she has been able to blackmail Egypt into doing what Russia decided. It is very significant that since the exchange of that cotton Egyptian threats to Israel have increased, lying radio propaganda against this country has been intensified, and the world has seen the drawing closer together of Russia and Egypt.
    There is another thing I should like to tell the House. Last December I made a tour of the Middle East and, on my way home, I called at Cairo. I had not been there for more than half an hour before I received an invitation to meet Colonel Nasser. I met him at his home on Christmas morning last. At that time the burning question in the Middle East was the Arab-Israeli question. I spent much time discussing it with Premier Nuri Said, President Camille Chamoun and other leaders of the Middle East.
    I spent much time discussing the question with Colonel Nasser. I urged him to enter into talks with Israel on the ground that it was far better to talk before fighting than to talk after fighting. He said to me that he could not possibly approach Israel because if he did so his position would be imperilled in Egypt itself. Then I asked him whether he would undertake to speak through a third party, and he said to me, "If I did I must make this perfectly plain; under no consideration at all will I have a certain third party." When I asked to whom he objected as a third party he said, "The Security Council of the United Nations."
    822
    I said, "That is a very serious statement to make. Why do you say that?" He said, "Because I have absolutely no faith in the United Nations." He explained that in 1947, when he was a captain in the Egyptian Army fighting Israelis, the Security Council ordered a stand fast and a cease-fire and, although the Egyptians stood fast, ceased fire and did not bring in reinforcements, the Israelis, he said, got reinforcements and armour and then, without warning, swept across and defeated the Egyptians and he himself was captured. That shows how dangerous it is when a man like Colonel Nasser, who had been captured when he was a captain, should hold that in his heart purely for revenge at some time or other.
    Throughout the whole of that discussion he stuck to the point that under no consideration would he agree to any third party talks through the United Nations. Yet, as soon as he seized the Canal and saw what was happening—the preparations being made by this country and France—he said, "Send the matter to the United Nations". Knowing what he had said to me, that under no consideration would he accept the United Nations because he did not believe in it, and then in the next breath and in another situation, saying, "Send it to the United Nations," proves to me that he is not only dishonest but hypocritical.
    Because of that I have no doubt as to where I stand, and because of that I felt it my duty to support the Prime Minister in what he has done in Egypt at this time.
    7.5 p.m.
    Mr. Denis Healey: I think we all listened with interest to what the hon. and gallant Member for Rochdale (Lieut.-Colonel Schofield) said, at least in his capacity as an expert on the questions of tanks and cotton. I should like to return in a moment to the point which he made about the Soviet military build-up before the entry into Hungary.
    Behind all the blunders and to my mind the catastrophes which have followed the British action in the Middle East in the last two weeks there has been one thing which I found more depressing than anything else. That is the fact that the actions and statements of the Government in the last two weeks have very clearly revealed a basic inadequacy in their whole

    823
    attitude to the problems of the modern world. The Government just do not seem capable of appreciating what the problems are nor how they are seen by the majority of our fellow men.
    To my mind the saddest thing about the last few weeks was, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Daines) said, the opportunity which was missed in Eastern Europe. Before the Israel attack took place in the Middle East there had been tremendous events in Poland and in Hungary. It was one of the historic turning-points in the story of the human race. Also, in many ways, it was the culmination of eleven years of combined efforts by the democratic Powers in their foreign policy. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North that if this country had been fully alive to what was going on, if it had made it its main priority to discuss with its friends and allies all over the world the right approach to those events, there might have been a chance of freeing the whole of Eastern Europe and simultaneously solving innumerable problems which have perplexed the world for the last ten years.
    I only say "might" because one can never be sure, but the most appalling thing of all is that there has never been any sign, in any statement, by any member of this Government, that they were conscious of the problem or aware of the possibilities at all. Sympathy has been expressed for the sufferings of the people in Eastern Europe; outrage has been expressed at the behaviour of the Soviet Union; but I have been able to find only one Ministerial statement which goes beyond that. I should like to read it to the House.
    It was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a speech in Manchester on 26th October. We might have expected from the Chancellor some really interesting comments on what was going on. He has identified himself in the last ten years with the struggle of the East European peoples for freedom by accepting office as President of the relevant section of the European Movement. I ask the House to consider whether in that situation it can be really proud of his remarks. The Daily Telegraph felt them so important that it extracted these words from the main report of his speech and printed them on its front page:
    824
    "he referred to the spectacle of people trying to throw off the shackles of Communism and added, 'It would be strange if at the same moment we were to fasten the fetters on our wrists. Make no mistake, Communism and Socialism are the same thing. One is hard, the other soft. One is red, the other pink, but the idea is the same and a bad idea it is'."
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Healey: The House will have noticed that some whom I must call "hon. Members" opposite said, "Hear, hear" to those remarks. Are they aware that at the moment those remarks were spoken the Socialist workers of Budapest were fighting Soviet tanks with their fingernails? Are they aware that the backbone of the Hungarian people was the Social-Democratic workers?
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Would not the hon. Member agree that Hungary has been Communist since 1948 and that these were Communist workers fighting a national war for the salvation of their country, against the Soviet Union?
    Mr. Healey: They were Socialist workers and were described as such by the Communists. I do not expect the Chancellor of the Exchequer to apologise to the House for his remarks. They were cheap and nasty, like most of his stock-in-trade, but I hope that he will take the opportunity next week of apologising to Miss Anna Kethly, Leader of the Hungarian Social Democratic Party, who will be visiting this country in order to obtain support for her suffering people.
    Mr. John Biggs-Davison: Does not the hon. Gentleman ignore the part played by students in Hungary in this resistance movement?
    Mr. Healey: I do not ignore the part played by the students. From talks I have had with representatives of those students in the last few days I know they regard as the greatest tragedy of all that, in their hour of need, this country was committed to an act of aggression in another part of the world.
    Mr. R. Chichester-Clark Mr. R. Chichester-Clark (Londonderry)rose—
    Mr. Healey: No. I have already given way too much.
    The hon. and gallant Member for Rochdale may be right in saying that

    825
    what has happened since those days was inevitable but I would remind him, on the matter of military build-up, that we have been building up our forces in the Mediterranean since the beginning of August. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If the preparation of ability to intervene argues intention to intervene, the hon. and gallant Gentleman has condemned his Government no less than he has condemned the Government of the Soviet Union for committing an act of deliberate aggression, with careful preparation months in advance. If he is really so certain that military repression in Eastern Europe was inevitable, how can he justify the action of the British Government in splitting their own people, splitting their allies, splitting the Commonwealth and splitting the United Nations on the very eve of these very tragic events which, according to the statement of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, the Government knew to be certainly coming?
    Lieut.-Colonel Schofield: I was trying to show that there was no connection between our French and British force intervening in the Canal and what happened in Hungary.
    Mr. Healey: I am not prepared to say that I know, and it may be no one will ever know, whether there was a connection, but there may have been one. Whether there was or there was not, there can be no excuse, on the hon. and gallant Gentleman's own argument, for the Government, at this moment in history, one of the great turning points in the history of the human race, deliberately splitting the world and deceiving their allies, in order to pursue selfish interests of their own in the Middle East.
    The fact is that, even in the weekend before the Israeli attack, diplomatic correspondents in the Conservative Press were saying that the Government could see some advantage in the events of Eastern Europe in that they were diverting Soviet attention from the Middle East and thus making it more possible for Britain to pursue an active policy in that area.
    The second fundamental criticism of the Government's behaviour in this period is their total failure to understand the forces at work in the Middle East.
    826
    I should here like to read a quotation from a Ministerial statement on this matter in the last few days. It is:
    "First of all, I believe that what the Middle East is suffering from is an unhealthy stimulated spirit of nationalism … We must face the fact that this spirit is not a natural growth but has been deliberately inculcated as an instrument of policy by the present rulers of Russia."
    That is a statement made by the Lord President of the Council in the House of Lords, five days ago. It has been made in almost identical language many times by the rulers of the Soviet Union in referring to developments in Eastern Europe. I believe that the noble Lord sincerely believes what he said, but that fact shows that he and his like are quite unfitted to deal with the problems of Britain and the world at the present time.
    The tragic events of the last two weeks have shown that nationalism is no less a genuine force in the Middle East than it is in our own country. I have nothing but contempt for those who say that nationalism has no right to exist in the Middle East and is quite artificial and who, the next moment, claim the right to use force against the Arabs in order to prove that Britain is still great.
    The fact is, as other hon. Members have already pointed out, that the blindness of the right hon. Gentlemen on the Government benches to the fact of Arab nationalism has been responsible for destroying forty years' work by British soldiers and diplomats in the Middle East. All the work which has been done by our representatives since 1916 has now gone for nothing, and we see the spectacle of the Arab world united against us from the Persian Gulf to Casablanca.
    It may well be that the Prime Minister, by his behaviour in the last fortnight, has signed the death warrant of Nuri Said. Certainly Nuri has no power any longer to pursue policies of friendship with this country, as was demonstrated very clearly by the Iraqi Government's statement at Teheran the other day. Even Persia. which is not an Arab country, voted with the Soviet Union against the West in the Security Council a few days ago.
    The hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. H. Fraser) made a most impressive speech, the first speech we have heard from the Government benches to attempt realistically to justify the Government's behaviour of a fortnight ago.

    827
    I do not agree with his justification any more than I agree with the action, but the speech was a serious attempt to justify it. It was a tragic speech at the same time, because the hon. Member knows as well as his Friends know that the speech has not justified the Government's behaviour in the last week. It might have justified the original conspiracy with two foreign Governments to bring down Nasser and take control of the Canal, but the fact is that right hon. Gentlemen opposite lost their nerve in the middle of the operation. They are believed all over the world to have lost their nerve because of Russian intervention.
    That brings me to my last point. I believe, as my hon. Friend for East Ham, North said, that we were on the brink of a third world war last week as a direct consequence of the actions of right hon. Gentlemen in the Government. Let me look at the problem from the Russian point of view. In the last two weeks they have slowly beaten to death a whole people, a people whose Government had declared their neutrality and appealed for help to the United Nations. While they were engaged in the commission of this ghastly crime they shook their fists at the British Prime Minister, and he crumbled. He gave in.
    If Government supporters do not accept my interpretation let them read what is being said in the Press of the countries who were their partners in this enterprise, in France and in Israel. Both countries believe that they have been sold down the river by the Prime Minister in the last seven days. The Colonial Secretary has been hard at work during the week-end looking for neutral comment which suggests approval of the Government action. I shall be interested to hear him read out some of the comments in Figaro and the French Press about the way in which the Prime Minister ratted on our allies in this enterprise before it was even completed.
    Nasser is still sitting in Cairo, the hero of the Arab world. The Canal is still three-quarters under Egyptian occupation. The forces of Israel and Egypt are not separated by Britain. The plain fact is that we have sacrificed and shattered all the pillars of our foreign policy without
    828
    achieving the aims which the Government had in mind at the very beginning of the operation.
    What is to be done? Quite frankly I agree again that it is very doubtful whether anything much can be done so long as the person responsible for this catalogue of tragedies remains Prime Minister. But I would say this: I believe that not only in this country but all over the world there are people who sincerely believe that the only possible basis for the survival of our human race is to get beyond the anarchy of power politics to some sort of international order; and who believe that it is the function of the United Nations, and the duty of its members, to co-operate in trying to create such an order.
    I will agree with hon. Gentlemen opposite who said that the very blackness of the catastrophe which we have contrived for ourselves has brought home to people all over the world the need for order. I believe we do have an opportunity now, which we may not have had earlier, for making a reality of the United Nations. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not try to take credit for this—it would be like A1 Capone taking credit for improving the efficiency of the Chicago police. But if the Government are really serious in saying that they now want to rebuild the United Nations, I should like to ask them some questions which I hope that the Lord Privy Seal will answer.
    First, are they prepared to accept whatever solution of the Canal dispute is reached by the United Nations without using their veto? Secondly, are they prepared to accept, as the basis for the functioning of the international police force in the Middle East, whatever agreement is reached by the United Nations Secretary-General with the Governments concerned in the area? If they are prepared to give those assurances, then there is a chance that this country can creep back slowly into the world family. If they are not prepared to do so, then they have excommunicated themselves from the human family for political purposes; and we shall have to go on living in the shadows and waiting until some other Government, or at least another Prime Minister, can bring us back into the community of nations.
    7.32 p.m.
    Mr. Julian Amery: I will willingly play tribute to the passionate sincerity with which the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) has felt upon recent events in Central and Eastern Europe. I know of his intimate knowledge of the problem, but I beg him not to believe that we on this side of the House do not feel about it as strongly as he and his right hon. and hon. Friends. I myself know something of this problem, and I remember the years after the war up to 1950, when it seemed to me that something could be done, in the period when the West had a monopoly of nuclear weapons and hence a lever over the Soviets.
    Whether anything can be done now in this tragic situation through which we are still passing, I do not know. I am bound to say that I have heard few constructive proposals from the party opposite on the many occasions on which they have raised this matter. I do not think anybody believes that an international police force would have solved the problem, and I cannot believe that making it easier for the Soviets to extend their grip over the Middle East would really have helped the cause of the patriots in Hungary. [HON. MEMBERS: "We have been making it easier."] I will come to that deeper and fundamental problem in what I have to say in a moment.
    At the beginning of August, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that what happened in the Middle East was "a matter of life and death" for this country. I go back to that remark, because in the frequent debates we have had on this subject I think it very easy to lose sight of the real issues at stake. As I see it, unless our access to the sterling oil of the Middle East is secure; unless our sea communications through the Middle East and our air communications over that region with the world round the Indian Ocean are secure, the sterling area cannot stand. This country cannot enjoy even its present prosperity, let alone an increased one. Neither Britain nor the countries of Western Europe can be independent in any sense, even in the relative sense possible in the modern world. If we lose—and it is very much a question of whether we shall still keep our footing in the Middle East—if we lose it, I believe we shall be reduced
    830
    inevitably to the rank of a satellite of the West or the East, according to the way of world events.
    These vital interests of ours in the Middle East were challenged by the rise of the Nasser movement, both in so far as it represented certain local social and economic tensions of a fundamental anti-Western character, and even more in recent years as it became increasingly an instrument of Soviet policy. We tried to come to terms with this force. We tried to appease it and failed. Then slowly, one by one, we saw our positions in the Middle East sliding away until the slide was in danger of becoming an avalanche. For some time I have had no doubt—I think many hon. Members on this Slide of the House have seen it coming for some time—that we were bound to have, probably this year, either a clash with Nasser or a surrender to him and those behind him.
    The Israeli attack on Egypt brought matters to a head. I do not think we could have allowed that action to develop without intervening, without surrendering any influence which we still retained in the Middle East. I know there are some—it is a plausible argument, and has been advanced by my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby)—who say that we should have left the Israeli attack to run on and they would have dealt with Col. Nasser and that would have solved the problem. There was far too grave a risk that the war would have become general. Other banners would have been unfurled and our influence swept away. Non-intervention would have meant abdication. Even delay would have meant abdication. That is why I think the Government did the right thing when they went into Egypt.
    I say the right thing from three points of view: from the point of view of British interests, because I think we cannot afford to abdicate our position in the Middle East; from the point of view of the Middle Eastern peoples themselves, because a repetition of the tragic Palestine war would have been the worst possible thing for the Arab and the Jewish people in the area, and finally, from the point of view of our international responsibilities.
    I know that we did what we did against the Security Council, against the

    831
    General Assembly, but I confess that I have never shared the view of the Archbishop of Canterbury that the Apostolic succession has somehow descended on the members of the Security Council. I was indeed a little shocked to find the fervour with which—in all sincerity I know—a number of hon. Members opposite have almost transferred their allegiance to the United Nations organisation. It is the first time since the Reformation that a substantial body of opinion in England has believed it should take orders from an authority outside this country.
    I take the view that the spirit of the United Nations is very important, I think far more important than the Charter; and it seems to me that the spirit enjoined on us the responsibility to stop the war and to promote a settlement. The fact that we were an interested party only strengthened our right to do it. Interested parties, after all, have the greatest responsibilities.
    I think the House would acquit me of any temptation to underrate the dangers that were inevitable in what was done. It was, after all, because we felt it to be so very difficult to go back into the Middle East that some of us fought as we did against the decision to withdraw from the Suez Canal Zone. It would have been much easier to have stayed than it has been to come out and go back. Delay has only increased the difficulty of going back; but despite the danger I do not see what other course was open to the Government.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger)—I am sorry that he has gone out of the Chamber—said that we have lost our right to give leadership to the world as a result of what we have done and that never again will we be able to stand alone. In a sense we have stood alone, although not quite alone; we have been in good company, because we have stood alone with France. I would say this, too, that leadership is of its very nature nearly always unpopular.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bassetlaw, when he was talking about leadership, referred to my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill). I can think of two speeches of my right hon. Friend the
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    Member for Woodford, both of which gave a lead and both of which were profoundly unpopular at the time—his speech at Fulton, which was received with horror by most hon. Members opposite and by most opinion in the United States but which afterwards became the established doctrine of a Labour Foreign Secretary, and his speech on high-level summit talks which was received with a good deal of apprehension by some of my hon. Friends on this side. Leadership by its very nature is often unpopular. Yet I think that, on the whole, public opinion as the days have gone by is beginning to move our way.
    I have never been tempted to underrate the dangers. There was first of all the political danger—the danger of a quarrel between the United States and this country. Personally I never felt that it was possible to go on much longer without a showdown with the Americans over the Middle East. Over the last ten years successive Governments, whether Labour or Conservative, have found it almost impossible to secure co-operation with the Americans in that area. The party opposite had experience of this in Palestine and Abadan. We have had it in the Suez Canal Zone, the Sudan and Cyprus. I think that a showdown was at some time inevitable, because whenever we have tried to conciliate the Americans it has never led to any advantage. There was only one exception—one glistening occasion—when we stood up to them and even encouraged those Arabs who worked for us to fight against the Arabs who worked for them. This was at Buraimi. They climbed down, and that particular part of the Middle East has been peaceful ever since.
    Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: We have just broken off diplomatic relations with them.
    Mr. Amery: The hon. Gentleman's point has really very little bearing on the subject.
    There has been the illusion, I think from genuine goodwill towards the United States, that their policy since the Suez Canal crisis was inspired very largely by electioneering considerations. I think that that was a profound illusion and that it has been proved to be an illusion by the speeches of Mr. Cabot Lodge since

    833
    the election, and by other expressions of American policy, not least the contemptuous rejection of any proposal for a high-level meeting with the Prime Minister of France or our Prime Minister.
    I think this showdown was necessary but we have also to make an effort to understand American policy instead of only resenting it. Here is the only contribution which I have to make on that subject. There are two schools of thought in the preparation of American policy towards the Middle East. Like Gladstone in this country in the nineteenth century, there are some who think they will defend the Middle East better against Communism if they could clear British and French interests out of the way and work directly with the rising nations in that part of the world. There is another element, which is perhaps more in the Disraeli tradition, who believe that it would be more advantageous to build up the French and British systems as bulwarks behind which America can shelter. Our ability to secure American co-operation depends upon being strong and effective in the defence of our interests in the Middle East, upon our systems being going concerns.
    There was also the danger of Soviet reaction. Of course it has been building up for months. It has been much publicised in the last few days, but those who have been following this question realise how deep the Russians have gone into Egypt in the last weeks. One thing of which I am sure is that there was never any risk—I believe that the hon. Member for Leeds, East was wrong in what he said just now—of the Soviets starting a world war over this Middle East business. They were not even prepared to send volunteers and had they begun to send them after our operations had begun, it would have been better to meet the volunteers as they were coming in than to wait until they were dug in and established.
    Besides this, there were practical dangers of a clearer type, many of which have come to pass since then—economic dangers, the blocking of the Canal and the interruption of our oil supplies. Balancing these dangers, however, were tremendous opportunities that at last we might receive a real settlement in the Middle East, a settlement which would
    834
    conform with the interests of the Middle Eastern peoples and with ours—a settlement of the Palestine problem, of the Suez Canal problem, of the Nile waters problem and the North African problem.
    Here was a great chance not just to break Colonel Nasser, though that was important too, but a chance to solve the social and economic problems which have given rise to Nasserism—a chance to create the conditions in which the beginnings of free institutions and modern administration which we had given to the Middle Eastern countries in the days of tutelage could grow up in the period of co-operation between equals. It was a great venture—it still could be. It was certainly nothing like as dangerous, however great the dangers, as sitting back and waiting for the Russians to dig themselves into the Middle East.
    Accordingly, without reservation I associate myself with the decision of the Government in going into Egypt. I would like at the same time to pay my tribute to our sure allies the French, who have shown the most remarkable spirit of national unity. I had the privilege the other day, with some hon. and right hon. Members on both sides of the House, of being in Algeria, and I came back from there convinced that there is a kind of renaissance taking place in France. The unity of the French Parliament in this hour of danger and the patriotism of the French Socialist Party in this hour of danger is remarkable.
    I would say, too, that curiously the French have shown in these last weeks the very qualities on which we used to pride ourselves—they have been very calm, very united; a little anxious, perhaps, at the rather excitable scenes in the House of Commons, reminiscent of the Palais Bourbon between the wars, a little unhappy that we should be divided and not always quite sure whether we would go on. I only pray that we shall not in the long run give them any ground to believe that in this emergency it is we who have let them down.
    Of course, when one goes into a crisis of this kind one has to be determined to see it through. One has to have strong nerves. There is a great question mark at the moment as to whether we have had strong enough nerves as a House of Commons, as a party or even as a

    835
    Government. We took the great decision. We ran all the risks, incurred all the odium and suffered a good deal of the damage. Our immediate objectives were within our grasp. We could have got to Ismailia and Suez in a day or a day and a half. And then the cease-fire was ordered. The great question is raised, has this imperilled our ultimate objectives?
    I should like to ask a few questions about the operation itself. It seems to have been admirably planned in accordance with all the best textbook principles. It was unfolded in a stately and majestic style over nearly a week. But it seems to have been a little unimaginative. The world did not stand still while this slow operation was unrolled. Could we not have gone a little faster? I know there has been the argument that the preliminary bombing was necessary to avoid casualties and so on. But in affairs of this kind speed is of the essence. You cannot make war with kid gloves. Surprise and fait accompli are the key. [Interruption.]
    Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: Let hon. Members opposite stop being a crowd of chattering monkeys.
    Mr. Amery: I should like to ask a few questions, too, about the cease-fire. We ought to know why the cease-fire was ordered. We have been told, I know, that it was because the Israeli and Egyptian troops had ceased fighting, but in our original ultimatum I understood that we had asked to have our garrison received into Ismailia and Suez regardless of whether the fighting continued. Was it due to American pressure? There is nothing new in that if it was. There have been rumours that the Americans threatened economic sanctions. If so, we ought to know. If it was so and if the Government told the country, let them have no doubt that they would have the whole country behind them in resisting anything of that kind.
    One of our commentators—I think the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), but I may be wrong—wrote that the reason we withdrew was that the United States had made it clear that they would not support us if the Soviet Union retaliated against our action in the Middle East. Was it the hon. Member who said that?
    Mr. Crossman: I may have done.
    Mr. Amery: I thought so. I do not believe that there was any danger of Soviet retaliation; but if the Americans did give that threat we ought to know, because we cannot build or maintain an alliance on the basis of a lie.
    Did the Soviet threat bring about the cease-fire? The Government have denied it, and I believe their denial. Was it the fear of volunteers? I believe that all this was propaganda spread by the defeatists to frighten the old women of both sexes in both parties throughout the country. There is, however, no doubt about one thing: that a lot of public opinion in the Middle East has been led to believe that the Russian threat had a good deal to do with it.
    I want to make it clear that the questions I am asking are in no sense a criticism of the Prime Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—in no sense. They may be a criticism of some of my hon. and right hon. Friends who, having given their assent to the decision, drew back at the critical moment—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah"]—like Onan of old. They are not a criticism of the Prime Minister. It is presumptious of me to say this, but I think that the moral courage that my right hon. Friend has shown in this crisis has been beyond praise. It has been all the greater because it began with the reversal of a policy with which he had himself been long associated. I beg him to believe that the country is far more behind him in this matter than perhaps he knows—and that goes particularly for the industrial constituencies. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) was, I believe, in my constituency the other night at a rather small meeting at which he figured as a star.
    There has, of course, been weakness, but it has been confined much more to the intelligentsia—to the readers of the Observer, the Manchester Guardian and the Economist, the papers that always produce the line of the American Embassy almost automatically.
    Mr. Norman Dodds: And The Times.
    Mr. Amery: There is no doubt that from the time of the cease-fire we have suffered a very severe setback. I do not believe that it need be a defeat, but if

    837
    we are to see how to turn it from being a setback into a victory we have got to take stock of the situation and try to find a way out. The damage which we have suffered is clear. The Canal has been blocked, the oil supplies interrupted, our immediate objectives have not been reached and we have lost a good deal of good will without obtaining the respect which would have followed from success.
    This has been more particularly apparent in the Middle Eastern countries themselves. It was a great tribute to the Governments of the Bagdad Pact countries that they delayed any condemnation of any kind until three days after the cease fire had been ordered.
    Nasser himself is still there—wounded, no doubt, but he is there. I remember an old Macedonian terrorist of long experience in resistance saying to me once, "Dictators are like snakes. You must either kill them or admire them, but never go poking them with a stick."
    So much for the damage; but some of the advantages are clear, too. The fighting has been stopped. There is, therefore, no immediate danger of a large-scale Arab-Israel war. Nasser's military potential has been crippled, and that counts for a lot in the other Arab countries. His and the Soviet plans for taking over the Middle East has received a very sharp setback that may be the reason why the Russians themselves are so stirred up on this question. If we use the opportunity well, those plans may have been spoiled for good.
    Above all—this is to me much the most important—the British and French troops are in the Middle East physically—they are there. [HON. MEMBERS: "They are going out."] They are there. The fact that they are there will be much the strongest card in our hands in the weeks that lie ahead.
    As I see it, the difference between defeat and victory in those weeks will turn on the question of whether we can still reach our long-term objectives: that is to say, international control of the Canal in accordance with, or on the basis of, whichever way hon. Members like to put it, the proposals of the London Conference and both parts of the Franco-British resolution to the Security Council; a lasting settlement of the Palestine problem and a lasting settlement of the Nile waters
    838
    problem. If we succeed in these things, that will be the end of the Nasser and the Soviet threat to our interests in the Middle East. Although other problems will come along, it will be the end of that particular threat. If we fail, the British and French, and, I think, American interests, too, will be expelled from the Middle East. Our influence to bring about the right decision is still very great, it is great because we are on the spot.
    The main purpose, as I see it, and the main justification of the Anglo-French expedition was to be able to achieve the realisation of these long-term objectives. It was not only to stop the immediate fighting; it was also to get a Canal settlement and a Palestine settlement. It is now proposed that a United Nations police force should be substituted for our expeditionary force, and the question arises, Can it do the job?
    Mr. Crossman: The Prime Minister agreed it.
    Mr. Amery: I am surprised that the hon. Member, who is quite an intelligent man, should make such an extraordinary banal remark. A police force is not a policy. It can only be an instrument of a policy. The question is, the instrument of whose policy—of the Security Council, which we know to be deeply split on ideological lines, or of the General Assembly, which has no competence in its Charter to try to enforce a settlement of particular problems all over the world?
    I know that there are hon. Members—on both sides of the House, perhaps—and many of the public who think that this will be an interesting experiment in the development of international cooperation. Unfortunately we are the guinea pig in this experiment. [An HON. MEMBER: "Egypt is."] It is therefore very important to consider what are to be the duties of this force. In my view, it is essential that the police force, when constituted, remains in the Middle East until our aims have been achieved.
    Mr. Dodds: Whose aims?
    Mr. Amery: One or two hon. Members ask, "Whose aims?" I would say the settlement of the Palestine problem, a settlement of the Canal problems on the lines I have indicated and a settlement of the Nile waters problem. It seems to me that the terms—
    Mr. R. E. Winterbottom: The terms are U.N.O.'s, not ours.
    Mr. Amery:—which have been attributed to the Egyptian Government are wholly unacceptable and I hope that my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, when he replies to the debate tonight, will be able to give us an assurance that the Government would not dream of accepting a police force on those terms. The size of the force is also very important. The figures as published in the newspapers of about 4,000 to 5,000 are, of course, just a joke, particularly considering what we learn about their equipment. A force without tanks or without an air component can do nothing in a situation of this kind. Does anybody think this rather mixed-up bunch will be capable of enforcing a settlement of these problems, of the problems of Palestine, the oil supply, of free passage through the Canal, and of the Nile waters? Does anybody believe they could keep out the Soviet volunteers if the Soviets decided to send them in? The hon. Member for Coventry, East was quite right this morning when he wrote that a force of this kind can be nothing but a smoke-screen for the withdrawal of the British and French forces.
    Mr. Crossman: That is what it is.
    Mr. Amery: The hon. Gentleman does not have to tell me.
    Therefore, it is absolutely vital, to my mind, that the force should be of sufficient size, not to be merely a smoke screen but to bring about the settlements which were the objects of our expedition.
    The composition of the force must, therefore, be vital to us. I should like to pay a tribute to the speech which the Prime Minister of Australia made—I think the day before yesterday. It seems to me essential both to our honour and to our interest that there should be French and British components in the police force. Essential to our honour because otherwise, whatever formula is found, people will think we have been kept out of it because we have been regarded as aggressors in this matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "The Government are."] Essential to our interests because, where matters so important to us are concerned, we cannot safely leave decisions in the hands of others whose
    840
    interests are not necessarily the same as ours. We do not wish to exclude anybody, but we must not be excluded ourselves.
    Some rather strange arguments have been advanced against having us in the force. First it was said that if we were in it we should have the Soviets in, too. Then the Soviets put forward some satellites to join, Rumanians and Czechs. Then a new thought was apparently produced, that if the force were kept small then the satellite applications could be regarded as having come in too late. On present lines the whole thing is being reduced to a joke. It is essential that the Government should make it clear tonight that they cannot go along with that.
    If we have an international force which will stay until a settlement of the Middle Eastern problems is reached, if it is of a size and effectiveness to carry out that task, and if we and the French are part of it, I think we shall have secured our main objectives. Without that, I think the outcome will be a shambles.
    But to have our way, to keep some of our interests in the Middle East, we shall need a greater degree of national unity than we have had hitherto. I have expressed some very strong views, and so have hon. Members on the other side of the House, in this debate and at other times. I recognise the deep feeling there is on the other side of the House against the policy pursued by my right hon. Friend. However, I ask them to try to understand the very strong support some of us have felt for that policy. It is very easy, when the issue hangs between victory and defeat, to try to humiliate the Government if one is in the Opposition. Let hon. Members remember that if they succeed in that they will be humiliating Britain and France and all those two countries stand for. Moreover, they will be reducing their own chances of doing something worth while if and when they should come back to power themselves.
    Therefore, I do ask hon. Members, whatever their view about the decision taken, to look at this problem coldly. That our forces are there at Port Said is a fact. They can be taken out, but that does not mean that we can go back to the situation as it was before. Those forces in Port Said are the one card, the one influence, we still have in the Middle

    841
    East. I think we ought to agree, whatever we think about the past decision, to use this card to its maximum advantage.
    The stakes are very high. If we fail—and it is a hair's breadth between success and failure still—if we fail our failure will mark, in my belief, the final expulsion of our influence from the Middle East, and it may be the end of Britain as a world Power. There is a real danger that we shall find ourselves humiliated to the level of a satellite, we and all that this country has stood for. It may be also the death blow to the peace of the world. If we go from the Middle East, if the French go from North Africa, a vacuum will be created. Do not believe the United Nations can fill it. They cannot. Into that vacuum will come the competing forces of the United States and the Soviet Union, and who shall say then how the matter will end? There are many, I think, who believe that at this moment the choice before us is between surrender and war. I would say to them, if you choose surrender you will get war.
    7.56 p.m.
    Mr. F. Beswick: We have listened to a most extraordinary rigmarole. I ask what right has the hon. Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) to come to this House and pose as a practical little man of action? What right has this hon. Member to come to poke fun at the United Nations forces? One would imagine he came here after a great victory in the Middle East, whereas our oil supplies are cut and the Canal is blocked, and our influence completely gone in that quarter of the world.
    There is one thing that the hon. Member has succeeded in doing. He has succeeded in justifying up to the hilt the criticism which has been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) that hon. Members opposite completely fail to understand the forces that are at work in the world today. I was unable to recognise the world about which the hon. Gentleman was speaking. He talked about it being essential to have a Britain strong and effective in the Middle East. Then there was this idea that we must choose between surrender or a clash with Colonel Nasser. It is difficult to follow the hon. Gentleman in the light of events in the last week and of the situation which we now have to face.
    842
    One thing the hon. Member said was that world public opinion was beginning to move our way. I believe there is some truth in that. Public opinion, I believe, is beginning to regard Britain again in some more favourable light, but world opinion is moving that way not because of anything the Government have done but because the people of this country are beginning to repudiate the action that was taken in their name within the last fortnight.
    This fundamental feeling is felt and expressed in our country by people whom the hon. Member derided and scorned, whom he dismissed as the intelligentsia, the readers of the Manchester Guardian and the Observer. It is precisely because there are those people that we still stand a chance of influencing affairs in the world. It is because there are those people in this country and because there has been an expression of moral indignation from those people that we still have a chance of regaining some influence in the world. We have a chance to build upon the reaction which came from our people. If we are to build on what is good in Britain it cannot be on the basis of this choice which was posed to us by the hon. Member.
    It is not a matter of surrendering to Nasser or of fighting Nasser. There is an alternative. I make no excuse for putting it forward, and I do not care if anyone considers it naive. I believe that the alternative is a genuinely held and genuinely pursued policy in support of the United Nations organisation. I hope to have something to say later about the kind of organisation which we should help to form. Meanwhile, I say that I do not believe that we can build this organisation while we have the present Government in office. If we are to pull our weight again in the world, it is absolutely essential that we should have a Government in power in whom we can have faith and trust and who we know will not endeavour to follow the lines which were insinuated in the closing words of the hon. Member for Preston, North.
    I still doubt the Government's sincerity of purpose. My doubts have been reinforced by the hon. Member, because he must have some reason for believing that there is still a chance of using the present situation, with the landing of the international force, for carrying out the Government's underlying policy. My doubts

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    arise from the behaviour and words of Ministers in the House. I could understand a mistaken policy and I could understand a stubborn adherence to a policy once it had been launched. What I find it impossible to stomach is the humbug, hypocrisy and deceit which have characterised the conduct of our affairs in the last few weeks.
    The original ultimatum was dishonest. Its dishonesty was underlined by the hon. Member for Preston, North when he told the House the true purpose of the landing. The ultimatum has scarcely been mentioned in the House since the word was first uttered about fourteen days ago. I will do no more than mention the subsequent leaflets dropped over Cairo, but we ought to have an explanation of the contradictions in the declared aims of Her Majesty's Government as uttered last Thursday by two Government spokesmen.
    First, we had the Secretary of State for the Colonies telling us that the reason for the intervention was to secure a ceasefire. On the very same day, the Minister of Defence was saying:
    "The whole point of this is that the Canal cannot and must not be solely the concern of the Egyptian Government. That is what all this has been about."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th November. 1956; Vol. 560, c. 262.]
    How can we reconcile all this tangle of contradictory statements and deceit with the aim, which we are now told is to be pursued, of building a United Nations organisation and an international force?
    There is another point about recent Ministerial apologia. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said last night that he has supported the Prime Minister in what he admitted might well prove to be an economically disastrous policy because he was against appeasement. I accept that, coming from the Chancellor, as sincere, though I believe it to be absolutely mistaken. I share the Chancellor's bitter hatred of the pre-war policy of appeasement, but our crime before the war was that we did not insist upon supporting international law. When Sir John Simon congratulated Japan on her success in Manchuria and Sir Samuel Hoare offered Italy a slice of Abyssinia and Mr. Neville Chamberlain agreed to carve up Czechoslovakia, we were tearing down the principles of collective security and breaking up the structure of the League of Nations.
    844
    Under a Conservative Government we appeased aggression before the war. This year, again under a Conservative Government, we have been the aggressors. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is progress."] The Chancellor pleaded for courage. He is right. We need courage. It has not been always conspicuous in our policy since 1945. But there are people who seem to think that courage is synonymous with military action. They are unable to conceive of courage being deployed in the pursuit of a political policy.
    There are hon. Members opposite who demand, and I think they are right, that sometimes we should behave independently of the United States, and courageously. I understand very well what they feel, but courage and independence in themselves are not enough. Why could we not have had more courage and independence when it came to considering trade with China, and more courage and independence during the recent proceedings of the Disarmament Sub-Committee? We could have had some disarmament convention had we not tagged behind the United States. Why could we not have had courage and independence when it came to dealing with the loan for the Aswan Dam? We should have shown more courage and independence in our Middle East policy as a whole.
    There were many occasions when strong, clear, courageous action would have been much better than a sickly compromise with the United States, but to have courage and take independent action for the wrong cause does not wipe out previous failures. A Liberal Member has spoken of frustration. He said that our aggression has been a reaction felt by hon. Members opposite against the frustration of the post-war years. There is something very true in that.
    This afternoon the Colonial Secretary gave us a list of territories in our Empire which are moving towards independence. I believe that one of the causes of frustration among hon. and right hon. Members opposite has been the movements towards independence within the Dependencies in the British Empire. Hon. and right hon. Members opposite have not taken pride in the fact that India, Burma, Ceylon, and Pakistan are now independent. It is precisely that development which has led to the sort of frustration that we have seen expressed

    845
    from the benches opposite. They have the idea that we are being pushed around, but this idea, when properly examined, is simply the inability of hon. Members opposite to readjust themselves to the need to meet the national feelings of these Asian and African countries.
    There is another reason for their feeling of frustration. The hon. Member for Preston, North spoke about the danger of leaving a vacuum in the Middle East. He was absolutely right. We left a vacuum, and the failure of the other side of the House and, to a large extent, of this side, what that we did not think of the alternative which we should have put in the place of the vacuum that we were creating. I do not accept from the hon. Member that the choice was between surrender and a clash. There was an alternative—a genuine United Nations policy which too few of us in this country have been prepared to face since 1945. Now we have a chance of doing some thinking about this problem.
    Mr. J. Amery: The hon. Member has said that the alternative was to build an efficient United Nations organisation, but that is not today—and the crisis is now.
    Mr. Beswick: Because we have failed in the past it does not mean that we should not now start work which we should have started some years ago. I will try to develop the lines along which I think we should work.
    First may I diverge a little. It seems to me that the danger in the present position when things are malleable, when we are still balancing a little, when the issue may come down this way or the other, is that we shall still attempt to revert to precisely the kind of outmoded balance of power politics which have landed us in the present mess. In so far as the speech of the hon. Member for Preston, North had any point at all, he was asking us even now to attempt to get back in the Middle East on the basis of national power. I do not for a moment believe that is possible.
    What I believe is possible is that we can have a constructive, dynamic policy based upon the United Nations organisation. I believe that such a policy can ensure stability in that part of the world. One of the most fascinating recent events has been the way in which former
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    unbelievers are now talking about an international police force. It is good to hear that, and I hope that the conversion will last. But what we should be doing now is not listening to the kind of atavistic stuff which the hon. Gentleman opposite put over. We should now be thinking in more practical and constructive terms of the kind of international police force which we want.
    We should be thinking of the kind of United Nations organisation we want. The Government have done no thinking in this matter. I put down a Question on 1st August asking what were their proposals for the review conference which the General Assembly last year agreed should be held. I was told then that we had as yet put nothing forward. Why are we not pressing for it to be held? Why cannot we be told in this House what ideas we shall put to that review conference? I admit that there is urgency. If there is, the sooner we start letting the world know, and letting the countries in the Middle East know for what we stand, the better.
    We need a United Nations organisation which is something more than a deliberative body. It is not good enough to have merely a Security Council to which we can refer threats to peace. We ought to be able to do something before those threats arise. We want a United Nations organisation which is a functional body, which can not only discuss matters but which can take decisions and actions, an organisation that not only has responsibilities but power to discharge those responsibilities.
    It is not good enough for hon. Gentlemen opposite to laugh when we talk in these terms. One would think that their realistic, practical power politics paid off One would imagine that Britain was on the upgrade instead of sliding down, after following the policy that hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to think is a realistic one.
    The project of an international police force has been the policy of the Labour Party and the Co-operative Party now for twenty years. It is time that we made a real attempt to put it into operation. For this emergency, no doubt, we shall have to rely upon contingents from the smaller nations. I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite not to be too sarcastic about the 3,000 or 10,000 people now gathering in the

    847
    Middle East. I have seen the arithmetic of this worked out. It is said that 10,000 members of an international police force are to try to keep law and order in a territory of 40 million people. But it is possible for a policeman in a street in London to keep law and order even though he is outnumbered by greater odds than that.
    If we have even 10,000 people in that area backed by the moral authority of the United Nations organisation, or even if there be but 3,000 to start with, I think they will be more secure themselves, and will have a greater influence for stability there, than 40,000 or 100,000 of Anglo-French Forces, against whom will be ranged the entire Arab world. Do not let us be too sarcastic about these beginnings of an international force. Let us think more of how we can build upon this start that we are about to make.
    Other questions arise which may seem academic to some hon. Gentlemen opposite but we should be thinking about them. To whom is the force to be responsible? Who will order it about, the Security Council or the General Assembly? Are we to tackle afresh the question of the veto? Are we to rely upon a two-thirds majority? These are important questions, but in so far as there is urgency, these are the kind of questions that ought to be discussed now in this Chamber, this week.
    There is one other matter which goes alongside the creation of an international police force. I mentioned earlier the disarmament conference, in which I believe we could have reached agreement had it not been for the reluctance of Her Majesty's Government to take a courageous and independent line. Instead we followed the United States of America, and agreement became impossible. I believe that we should turn again to the Disarmament Sub-Committee. Fundamentally this is a question of transferring power from national forces to an international or supranational body. In so far as we succeed in creating even a small international force for the maintenance of law and order, we shall find it much easier to get agreement in the Disarmament Sub-Committee.
    There is one other point which few people have mentioned but which we shall have to turn to. I asked a few months ago what Her Majesty's Government
    848
    were thinking about the proposals for a Middle East oil consortium, which was first put forward to the United Nations organisation by the International Cooperative Alliance. The former Minister of State tended to be a little sarcastic about that proposal. Yet I am certain that sooner or later—and it may be sooner rather than later—this will be one of the most important issues facing us. Even now I wonder if the Minister of State would be quite so confident in tossing aside this question when he thinks of the oil now running to waste in the desert in the Middle East from the broken pipelines.
    Tied up with this is the question of an economic plan for the area as a whole. That, again, we should make certain is directly under the United Nations organisation. There must be no repetition of that wretched business of dangling aid on strings which the United States and ourselves tried earlier this year and which ended so disastrously.
    What I have been asking for is that we should start to work out now a really constructive United Nations policy. I believe that in this country there are now more people turning to U.N.O. for the defence of our people than ever before. Certainly if we look to the kind of alternative posed by the hon. Member for Preston, North, there is but little chance for us unless we have an effective United Nations organisation.
    The operation and management of the Suez Canal may well be another functional practical matter which ought to be placed under the United Nations organisation. There are other problems connected with the narrow waterways which will soon be coming up. The Montreux Convention falls due next year if any one of the signatories requires it, but in any case in two years' time. The independence of Morocco has now opened up the problem of the Straits of Gibraltar, and something will have to be done about the demilitarised zone on the southern coast.
    All these are practical problems. They have no possibility of solution if we look at them in the old context of balance of power politics. They can only be solved if we try to solve them within the framework of the United Nations organisation.
    Mr. Pitman: I agree with the hon. Member that we need to reform the

    849
    United Nations, but has not my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) showed the alternative stool upon which we could sit? I believe he has shown that very clearly. He has also, by implication, shown that we must not fall between the two stools, which would be the most fatal of all.
    Mr. Beswick: I agree absolutely. However, while it would be fatal to fall between the two stools, I believe it would be equally fatal to sit upon the stool described by the hon. Member for Preston, North, because its legs are so badly broken.
    I take the point that what we now do we should do with some sense of mission, because we believe in what we are doing. The hon. Gentleman repeated in other words something which Mr. Menzies said the other day. Mr. Menzies said that either we must insist on Col. Nasser accepting our solution for the Suez Canal or else we must sit back and call it a day. One thing we cannot afford to do is to sit back and call it a day. I am absolutely at one with the hon. Gentleman on that. We must have some real, dynamic policy. The hon. Gentleman's policy has failed. Let us, then, try the policy of the United Nations organisation, in which so many of our people have shown their belief.
    8.22 p.m.
    Sir Robert Boothby: I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) that we all ought to be thinking about the United Nations organisation, not only in connection with the proposed police force to go into Egypt, but also in connection with other functions that it may have to discharge. If it is to discharge those functions, let us be under no illusion; the Charter will have to be revised. There is absolutely no question about that. I feel it to be of vital importance.
    The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) said he thought that there was a great opposition in the country to the Prime Minister's policy. I do not agree with him. I believe that, if the Prime Minister went to the country next week, he would get a substantial majority for his present policy. I am bound to say that I felt much the same way about Mr. Neville Chamberlain at the time of
    850
    Munich. I am not comparing the policies. I am merely saying that it makes it more difficult, believing as I do that the Prime Minister has a majority behind him, to abstain on a vote in support of his policy. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) was perfectly right the other day when he said that it is really a most disagreeable thing not to be able to give one's wholehearted support to one's own party on a major aspect of policy. It is a nasty business. It has happened to me previously. It is no fun. Therefore, I crave the indulgence of the House for a few minutes. I must try to explain why I did it. It is bound to be a slightly personal speech, but I shall make it as short as I can; and I hope to have neither applause nor boos in the course of it.
    I have long been on the record as saying that this gradual build-up of the Middle Eastern situation to the point of explosion has been caused primarily by our failure to achieve a common policy for that area with the United States of America. That has been the theme of many speeches today. I should like to say, at the outset of my remarks, that I was in Washington last January when the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary made a very sincere and strenuous effort to obtain from President Eisenhower and Mr. Dulles co-operation in the formulation and carrying out a joint Anglo-American policy for the Middle East. They failed to do so. I will not go into the reasons now, but it was certainly not their fault that they failed.
    The results—the disastrous results, I consider—almost immediately became apparent. Nasser was built up, partially by us and partially by them, but without any joint consultation. He was supplied with arms. He was also sustained by the promise of a loan for the Aswan Dam, although all the time he was conducting a violent propaganda against the West all over the Middle East.
    Worse still, the Tripartite Declaration was whittled down to a point at which it became practically meaningless. It was whittled down, not by us, but by the Americans. They practically emasculated the Tripartite Declaration, which was the best chance, at that time and in default of a fresh policy, of maintaining peace in the Middle East.

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    Finally, and most serious of all, the balance of power in the Middle East was gradually upset by reason of the fact that Nasser was getting arms not only from us but from the Russians, and at the same time we were denying to the Israelis arms for which they were very desperately asking. This is what made the Israelis increasingly desperate.
    Some of us in the House asked Questions. On 28th March. I asked the Foreign Secretary:
    "Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the continued deterioration of the position in the Middle East is due largely to the absence of any policy on the part of the West If we cannot persuade the Americans to agree upon a joint policy and joint action, would it not be better to produce a policy of our own?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st March, 1956; Vol. 550, c. 2155.]
    My right hon. and learned Friend replied that he still stood firmly by the Tripartite Declaration. But by that time the United States of America was no longer standing firmly by it; and it was, therefore, becoming increasingly worthless.
    There was also a Question on 2nd July, when the Foreign Secretary was asked whether he would now stop the export of arms to Egypt, and he replied:
    "No, Sir. Her Majesty's Government's policy on arms to the Middle East countries, including Egypt, remains as stated in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby) on 28th March."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd July, 1956; Vol. 555, c. 994.]
    That was when he talked about the Tripartite Declaration.
    Finally, there was the Question which I addressed to the Foreign Secretary on 1st August, after Nasser had seized the Canal. I asked:
    "… whether, in view of the aggressive action taken by the Egyptian Government in respect of the Suez Canal, Her Majesty's Government will reconsider their decision not to allow the Government of Israel to purchase such arms as they consider necessary for the defence of Israel."
    One of the Joint Under-Secretaries of State for Foreign Affairs replied:
    "Her Majesty's Government's policy with regard to arms supplies to Middle East countries is based on the Tripartite Declaration of 1950 which relates to the Arab-Israel dispute."
    He went on:
    "The nationalisation of the Suez Canal is not related to that dispute."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st August, 1956; Vol. 557, c. 1381.]
    On—[Laughter.] I do not think that is very funny. I think it is alarming.
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    On 6th July I received a communication from the Israeli Ambassador in London, who happens to be a great friend of mine. I dare say that other right hon. and hon. Members received the same communication. It gave a detailed account of the arms which we had been supplying to Egypt—Sherman, Valentine and Centurion tanks, etc.—and also of the arms that Egypt had received from Russia, including 100 Stalin III tanks, 200 T.34 tanks, 150 MiGs and 45 llyushin bombers; and also mentioned that another 50 heavy tanks were coming from Czechoslovakia.
    I was deeply alarmed by those figures, especially when the Israeli Ambassador told me that we had refused to give them any Centurion tanks. I saw in this a deplorable worsening of the situation, because the whole balance of power in the Middle East was being upset. I cannot help remarking that the figures given yesterday, relating to the Russians arms that we have found in Egypt, tally almost exactly with the figures given to us by the Israeli Ambassador last July—and that is a long time ago.
    I was already desperately worried about this arms situation when the storm broke, and Colonel Nasser seized the Canal. We must not forget that it was really Mr. Dulles who precipitated that action by his sudden withdrawal of the offer of a loan for the Aswan Dam. I am not excusing Colonel Nasser in the slightest degree, but Her Majesty's Government cannot be blamed for Nasser's action; it was the action of Mr. Dulles which caused it. And that, again, arose from the absence of effective cooperation between the United States and ourselves, which is always disastrous, and nowhere more disastrous than in the Middle East.
    I should now like to ask for the indulgence of the House to quote one or two things that I said after Nasser's seizure of the Canal. It is because I said those things, and that they are publicly on the record, that I felt I had no option—not being able to explain my position otherwise—but to abstain from voting last Thursday. In an article published on 9th September, I said:
    "Surely our course is clear. We must take care not to put ourselves in the wrong in the eyes of world opinion. If Nasser rejects the Menzies proposals out of hand, a meeting of the sponsoring Powers should be reconvened,

    853
    and the matter should be brought to the attention of the Security Council of the United Nations. Economic sanctions against Egypt are, in the circumstances, fully justified. They have been used against us, and we are entitled to retaliate in kind. But force should only be used against force."
    My second quotation comes from the debate on 12th September, when I said:
    "I say that Nasser is a dictator, but I think it could be possible to negotiate with him under certain conditions, and I believe that these may well come about."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th September, 1956; Vol. 558, c. 144–5.]
    My third quotation is from an article published on 16th September, when I said:
    "What matters more than anything else is, first, that Britain should not put herself in the wrong by using force unless it is used against her, and by failing to take the case to the United Nations if Nasser continues to be obdurate. And, second, that Britain should stand firm by her principles, which amount to an insistence that the rule of law rather than the rule of the jungle shall be applied to the conduct of international affairs."
    Finally, I made a submission to the Prime Minister on 26th September, in which I said that our primary objective should be to bring Nasser to negotiation, and to obtain sufficient support from the United Nations organisation to compel him openly to flout world opinion if he still refused to negotiate. In my letter I compared the situation in the Suez Canal with the situation in Abyssinia before the war, with which my right hon. Friend had personally dealt; and said that, whereas in the case of Abyssinia we had no real support from the League of Nations, from France or from the United States, today we had massive support—and that the political pressure upon Nasser from the oil-producing countries and from India, who saw their whole economic future in jeopardy, was bound to increase.
    That was my view; and it was confirmed by a visit which I made to the Persian Gulf and Iran, accompanied by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Fylde (Colonel Lancaster), the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), and the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Neal). I believe they will confirm what I say, namely, that we were enormonsly relieved by the situation which we found there. We found a growing distrust—even an apprehension—of Nasser throughout the oil-producing areas; we found a growing friendliness
    854
    towards us; and we found that the meeting of the oil monarchs of Saudi Arabia and Iraq resulted in a drastic cut in the money that King Saud had been giving to Nasser for his propaganda, so that the propaganda machine, although still going, was far less formidable and incessant than it had been.
    Last, but not least, we found that from Kuwait—the "Aladdin's lamp" of the Middle East and, indeed of the world—oil was flowing, by day and night, into the tankers. There are no pipelines to be cut there; it was just oil flowing five miles downhill into eight tankers, continually, throughout the 24 hours. We went on board and watched the oil come down, gurgle into the ships, and go off to Europe. It was a good sight; and at that time we saw very little to disturb us. I went there thinking that our oil was in grave jeopardy, and came back feeling pretty certain that it was not, and that things were beginning to go better for us.
    Now we come to the Israeli attack upon Egypt, which I believe was caused primarily by the arms situation which I have already endeavoured to describe. I do not believe, and will never believe, that there was a cold, long-planned conspiracy between Israel and ourselves and France to do this thing. I do not believe there was collusion, nor do I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Preston. North (Mr. J. Amery) believes there was.
    As a lifelong supporter of the Zionist cause I have an implicit faith in Israel; and when my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North said in his brilliant speech just now that he thought that I thought that we should have left it to the Israelis he was quite right. We should have left it to the Israelis. I lunched with one of the leading members of the Knesset on the day the attack was launched, and said "What do you want us to do?" He said, "Leave us alone. We want to clear up the armour which we know exists in the Sinai Desert. It will take us four or five days to do it. I hope that we shall not be stopped, because if we succeed we shall have clarified the position for a long time to come, and the whole position will be easier."
    I was therefore very interested last Sunday to read a dispatch from Mr. Philby, who is, perhaps, the greatest

    855
    living authority on Arabia. Writing from Beirut, he said:
    "If the Israelis had reached the Canal on their own, Nasser's prestige would have suffered a blow from which it could not have recovered. But the Anglo-French invasion afforded him the alibi of the stab-in-the-back variety which Cairo Radio is busily exploiting."
    I believe quite sincerely that our intervention was ill-timed, and I also believe, with my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North, that it was too slow. For six days the process of "softening up" took place by means of precision bombing, while feet became steadily colder. Lots of feet, many many feet. I can truthfully say, not my feet; but the feet of people who had greater responsibilities than mine at home and abroad.
    The late Lord Fisher, quite a remarkable man in his way, who knew something about war, coined two great aphorisms which have come down to us. He said:
    "The essence of war is surprise."
    His second aphorism was:
    "Moderation in war is imbecility."
    I believe that is profoundly true.
    I have been asked by some of my hon. Friends what I think we ought to have done when Israel invaded Egypt. I have little doubt in my own mind that our right course would have been to have gone straight to the Security Council, and to have refused to brand Israel as an aggressor because she had been provoked beyond endurance, and was terrified, and rightly terrified, largely as a result of the policy of ourselves and the United States. Then we should have informed the Security Council that, unless effective action was taken by it to restore peace and to bring about a comprehensive settlement of the problems of the Middle East, including that of the refugees, we should be compelled to take military action ourselves.
    In other words, instead of delivering the ultimatum to Nasser, I should have delivered it to the Security Council; and, if it had become necessary for us to take military action I should, to quote Lord Fisher again, have hit first, hit hard and gone on hitting until we had achieved our objectives. That is the only thing to do when one takes military action. If one is not prepared to accept casualties, it is really better not to go to war.
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    In the circumstances, I do not see how I could have acted otherwise than I did.
    There has been a lot of talk about, and some references in the Press to, a letter which was never sent. I want to say to the House—and this is the only other personal point I wish to clear up—that I met the Leader of the Opposition at a dinner last week which was by way of being private. I told him of the anxieties that some people felt about the terms on which we would hand over to a United Nations force; and he told me the terms of a Motion which he had in mind to put down on the Order Paper. In the event, he put down his Motion; and the anxieties of those who were concerned about the terms on which we should get out of the Canal Zone were assuaged, and no letter was ever sent.
    But I want to say to the House, quite frankly, that my own concern was not with what I am afraid I regarded as legal quibbles. I really did not think the issue depended on the actual conditions we did, or did not, make about handing over to the United Nations force. Rightly or wrongly, I have been against the general policy; and am on the record as having been so. If I had caught your eye on Thursday instead of tonight, Mr. Speaker, I might have been saved a lot of trouble. If I had been able to make my position clear I would have voted for the Government, most certainly, on what was only a token vote, which had very little to do with the real issue. But if one votes, without explanation, for a policy of which one disapproves, it seems to me that democracy becomes perfectly meaningless, and that one had better get out of the House of Commons altogether.
    I am sure I am right about this. It is a frightful thing to have to do, and I know that one has to suffer; but I do not believe people in public life can go on saying and writing things—I do a lot of writing and of talking on radio and television—and then vote, without giving any explanation, for a policy with which they have not agreed. One cannot do that and be honest either with oneself or with the public.
    I want to say a word or two about the future. It is being said in Paris that we went to war to explode Nasser and to consolidate the Canal; and have consolidated Nasser and exploded the Canal.

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    That is very French but altogether too facile. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North that we still have it in our hands to make quite a good recovery from this situation. We might not disagree so much as my hon. Friend thinks about the methods. I do not know about that; but, to end on a slightly lighter note, I think that the long love affair between the English and the Arabs is now at an end. It has extended from Sir Richard Burton to Lawrence, through a great many Arabophiles, if I may use the term.
    I have listened to Englishmen expatiating on the nights which they have spent under the wide and starry sky, talking about the camel rides which they took in the desert long before the war. But the Bedouins are no longer thinking of camels. They are thinking of Cadillacs. This is a different world. And perhaps it is no bad thing that the tremendous romantic illusion which the English have had about the Arabs should come down to hard reality. It has been a romantic, but for a long time a very one-sided love affair; and has not been returned in kind.
    I do not want to be nationalistic in any way, but I must point out that the Scots have never had any part in it at all. They are well understood by the Arabs. The Arabs know why they are there: they are there to make money, and to help Arabs make money. They help each other to make money, and respect and like each other as a result. The Scots have confined their romanticism always to Robert Burns.
    The days of political and military influence of the kind which we exercised in the Middle East, and particularly in Arabia, up to the Second World War are now over. The day of the technician has arrived. And I think that here lies a hope. I believe that in conjunction with the United States—I insist on that because we cannot "go it alone," it was lack of Anglo-American co-operation above everything else which landed us in the mess we are in today—we can still get out of the mess.
    When my colleagues and I were out in the Middle East, and in the Persian Gulf, we found a very great anxiety on the part of the rulers to exploit the vast mineral wealth of the area, and to enlist the
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    technical skill and the "know-how" to enable them to develop it. They are worried, even in Iran, about how they are to get the necessary capital and technical skill to develop from now on. They want technicians and management in order to improve the economic position of their people.
    That would do more for the Middle East than anything else. Here again I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North. I hope he will not be embarrassed if I say I find myself more in agreement tonight with his remarks than in disagreement. It is terribly important that, in this struggle for influence in the Middle East which is about to take place between the Soviet Union and the forces of the West, the West should—I do not say completely win because that would be impossible—be able to do rather more than hold its own. In facing Soviet infiltration, which at the moment is very dangerous, that is terribly important.
    Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have pointed out that a growing number of Arabs now think, or are being deluded or propagandaed into thinking, that they owe the cease-fire in Egypt to Marshal Bulganin. The Jordan Government, for whom our taxpayers have to find £11 million a year, have sent to Marshal Bulganin a telegram of thanks for his "noble support." That shows the position which we are now in, and have to get out of. We can do it best by beginning at the technical level and by taking hold, once again, of the hand of the United States of America. If we realise this, and concentrate on economic development, we may yet save the sum of things.
    8.46 p.m.
    Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Sir R. Boothby), especially on this occasion. I quite appreciate his reasons for abstaining.
    It has been a useful debate because some hon. Members on the other side of the House are now discussing, not the abstract rights and wrongs, but the concrete question of the success, or failure, of the Government's policy. It is impressive when Tories frankly admit the appalling realities of what we have

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    seen in the last fortnight. The hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire said one very interesting thing when he referred to Neville Chamberlain and public opinion at the time of Munich. I think he will agree that, on the whole, well-informed opinion was then, as now, against the Government whereas ill-informed opinion was on the Government's side.
    There is one other great resemblance, and that is the character of the man in charge. Munich was bad enough as a defeat, but it was even worse because the Prime Minister of the day proclaimed it as a success when he came home saying, "Peace with honour." What put us back month after month was that the ill-informed people could not believe that the Government were deceiving them. The Government deceived them between November, 1938, and the march into Prague in 1939. I am glad to see the Lord Privy Seal come in. He will remember that he was one of the leading Municheers. He remembers the deceit on the people of this country when the Prime Minister and Members of the Cabinet were saying, "It is wonderful we have saved the peace for you."
    Of course, ill-informed people like to believe that their country has done well. They do not like to think that their Government can be stupid and blind. The most heartening thing we have is when hon. Members like the hon. Members for East Aberdeenshire and Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) come out and agree with us in exposing the desperate plight we are in as the result of the events of the last fortnight.
    Let me briefly sum up once again the present situation. I will assess it in terms not of pretexts but, as the two hon. Gentlemen to whom I have referred have done, in terms of the objectives aimed at by the Government. Those objectives were: first, to regain control of the Canal and to overthrow Nasser; secondly, to activate the United Nations into doing something about the Jewish-Arab conflict; thirdly, to do something to countervail against the Russians; and, fourthly, to show that Britain could "go it alone." That is not an unfair description of the four objectives of the Government. Let us consider them singly.
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    With regard to objective one, the Canal is still in Nasser's hands, and will be blocked for months. As the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire pointed out, thanks to the Anglo-French expedition, Nasser was saved from defeat by the Israelis and now has an alibi. It is the most tragic irony that if we had left well alone and not wanted to join in the aggression, maybe all our objectives would have been achieved for us by the Israelis. But because the Prime Minister could not resist the temptation to get in himself and do something with the French, against Nasser, we saved Nasser from certain defeat. So much for the first objective—the Canal in Nasser's hands and Nasser stronger than before the Anglo-French expedition.
    Let us take the next point, and this is a lovely one. We went in, we are now told, to activate the United Nations. I have read with great interest about the United Nations police force. Was it really the intention of the Prime Minister to see to it that British and French troops should be chucked out of Egypt, and small national contingents from Colombia, etc., should be brought in to take their place? Was that the intention of the Prime Minister?
    Was it his intention that Colonel Nasser should dictate the terms on which the police force should come in? In the eyes of the United Nations General Assembly we are the aggressors: Colonel Nasser is the innocent victim. If a police force is brought in, the innocent victim has the right to make sure that some of the burglars are not in that police force. The fact is that this is not an Anglo-French police force: it is a police force put in by the Assembly which by an overwhelming majority told us not to go into Egypt and is solely concerned to get us out.
    Is it not rather impudent of the Prime Minister to say "I intended to create this United Nations police force. That is why I went in. That is why I mustered the armada and 160,000 men. I got myself land at Port Said in order to get myself ignominiously ejected"? That is what they have told us—that they intended all this. Of course, it is not true.
    Let us take this last objective about the Russians. It is said, "The real object we had was to scotch the Russians". I must say that if we wanted to scotch the Russians, it was very odd

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    that we and the French should try to do it on our own. One of the jobs which I should not start doing with the French as my only allies would be to get into a direct conflict with the Russians by methods which put me morally in the wrong, give the Russians the chance of making me the aggressor at the United Nations, alienate the United States and ensure that we and our gallant French allies must go it alone.
    To prove that this was our purpose the Prime Minister tells us of a secret cache of Russian arms on Sinai. Look at the confidence that he showed in his claim that his aim was to get the Russians out of the Middle East. There is not one word of truth in it. He decided to occupy Suez in order to prove that Britain could do something on her own without the United States, and all he has proved is that we can do nothing on our own.
    We have had to creep back to the protection of the United States. We have been ordered out of Port Said and told to go back home. "Big Brother Ike" says that we are bad boys. He says, "Anthony, I will not even have you to stay. I will just give you a lesson by turning you down until you have been put in the corner for three weeks". Everyone outside this country knows what has happened. It is only the uninformed masses in this country who can be persuaded to share the delusions of grandeur of our Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman still sincerely believes that he has had a grand success, and each time the "success" fails further, he excuses himself by finding another reason why he took the action which he did.
    First, he said that he did it to protect the Canal and the oil; and then he did it to provide a United Nations police force, and then to get an anti-Russian drive going. Each week we have had a new excuse with which the Prime Minister can deceive the British people. But the disaster goes on—despite the lies.
    I would only say this in conclusion to the Government Front Bench. We have to face the fact that now we are out of the Middle East. The British and French have kicked themselves out of the Middle East. We cannot go on doing this sort of thing for ever and expect to hold our position. We cannot go on dishonouring ourselves by getting on the back of the Israelis and then saying that
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    we invaded Suez to put out a bush fire, when everyone knows that we are lying. We cannot like that without making ourselves ridiculous to the rest of the world.
    My own view is that we shall have to ask America to look after our oil interests for us. They have played rather a shrewd game in the last fortnight. They have got their skirts clear of the Anglo-French debacle. I do not blame them. When we said, "We are playing this one on our own," we could not expect them not to play it on their own. Now they have us in their power. We must only hope that they will hold our oil for us in the Middle East. Is it not rather ignominious for the Tory Government to hope that "Big Brother Ike" will forgive us for double-crossing him and look after our oil which we can no longer look after ourselves?
    Who can tell me that the Bagdad Pact will be revived? We have had news censored from Kuwait, Bahrein and Quatar and we do not know what is going on, except that there are riots. Does anyone believe that we can win back the Arabs' friendship now.
    Mr. Nigel Nicolson: Had we got it?
    Mr. Crossman: Since we lost it in the previous five years, does the hon. Gentleman think that we can go and patrol the whole area, put troops in there and hold it down and get the oil in that way? That is not possible in the modern world.
    The strange fact is that when we have realistic Tory politics, no choosiness about legal niceties in the United Nations and no delicacy about lying, this realism does not pay. Let us face the fact that this "realistic" policy has been utterly disastrous, and that if we had had a little respect for the Charter and for telling the truth, for not deceiving ourselves, for looking, at things honestly and trying to do a decent job we might still be a power in the Middle East. But we have been kicked out, thanks to the stubborn leadership of a weak, vain man who is going to bring this country to further disaster unless we get rid of him soon.
    8.57 p.m.
    Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: We are closing tonight one phase of a debate which began on 2nd August. Let me reassure the Treasury Bench that this

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    is not the end and that they will still have many chances to explain and defend what they have done.
    May I start by a brief word on Cyprus. The Colonial Secretary said today, as the Government have often said before, that they have to stay in Cyprus because they need it as a base. I replied two months ago—I am quoting HANSARD—that after we grant self-government and self-determination
    "… we can have a base there as safe as the United States bases in this country if we only intend to use it in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th September, 1956; Vol. 558, c. 361.]
    The Government wanted Cyprus for a Charter-breaking war. They have had their Charter-breaking war, and the British people will never allow them to have another. Therefore, the whole basis of the Government's Cyprus policy has gone. Let them recognise it and make peace without delay.
    Do the Government realise that the casualties in Cyprus are greater than they were in Egypt? They have not broken Eoka, as they promised. Fifteen Britons were killed in the last eight days. I appeal to the Government, and I appeal once more to Colonel Grivas: Let Eoka, on their initiative, call a truce; let them do it before Lord Radcliffe's Report is published, and before the debate on Cyprus comes up in the United Nations. I make this appeal on behalf of the whole of our Front Bench and our party and of very many people in the country who wish Greece, Cyprus and Turkey very well.
    I now come to the main theme on which I wish to speak, that upon which my hon. Friend has so eloquently spoken, the Egypt War. May I quote something which was said by the Prime Minister when the Charter of the United Nations was ratified in 1945. He said:
    "Law and order, whether national or international, must be founded on truth.".
    The Government claim to have been defending international law and order, ever since July; but in all their explanations of their policy, truth has been a very scarce commodity indeed. We have had bogus statements of their purposes, bogus versions of the facts and bogus arguments in defence of what they have done.
    Let us look at what the Colonial Secretary said this afternoon about the Press of Europe. He tried to make the House
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    and the country think that we had strong support. He quoted Sweden. Swedish journalists told me this afternoon that while some papers used more moderate words than others, virtually the whole Swedish Press has been against the Government's war. The Colonial Secretary quoted the Italian Messagero. I have no wish to say that it is not a reputable paper, but it still belongs to the same family who owned it when Mussolini was in power. He quoted the Journal de Genève. That was purchased in 1932, during the Disarmament Conference in Geneva, by the armament manufacturers of France, the Comité des Forges. Unless I am much mistaken, it still belongs to them. It was strongly anti-British and pro-Vichy throughout the war.
    I say to the Colonial Secretary that the Press of Europe is speaking almost with a single voice against the Government's war. By what the Government have said they have so broken confidence that people in every country find it very difficult to believe a word they say. They claim that the purpose of their war was to preserve the peace, but the editor of a leading Conservative weekly journal could write on Saturday last:
    "No inside knowledge of Ministers' minds is required to see that action was taken for two reasons: to wrest control of the Canal from Egypt; and to dispose of Colonel Nasser."
    When a well-informed, patriotic, non-Socialist observer says things like that, it is time for a Government to give us a larger dose of truth.
    The gravest of their distortions—that is why I take it first—has been the Government's argument about international law. The Foreign Secretary argued that under customary international law, we had the right to intervene in Egypt to protect the lives of British subjects and to safeguard the Canal. There are two standard cases in customary international law—the Caroline in 1838 and the judgment of the International Court in the Corfu Channel case in 1949. I hope that another day we may debate them.
    The rules established in those cases, and always hitherto accepted, utterly condemn the Government's war. And the customary international law fits the facts of the present case. How did the Government protect the lives of British subjects in Egypt? How did they defend the Canal and our ships? Long before

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    our action started there was not a single British ship anywhere near the Canal—the Government had warned them off—but there were other British subjects in Egypt. There were 150 on the Embassy and Consular staffs, 450 in the Suez base, 1,500 others from the United Kingdom. mostly in Cairo and Alexandria—11,000 British subjects in all.
    What did the Government do to protect them? They had exposed them to the grievous peril of Egyptian vengeance, and the Government have often reminded us of the murder of twenty foreigners in Cairo in 1952. They had exposed these 11,000 to grievous peril. They had made no arrangement to get them out. When we asked about the people in the base, the Government could not even tell us where they were. The same is true of the Government's claim that they were protecting the Canal. They said that they must prevent fighting on the Canal. The first headline about our landings ran like this:
    "Red Devils and French paratroops launch assaults in Canal Zone. Fighting at four points."
    The truth about our intervention was simply this. It was a flagrant violation of customary international law. It saved, and could save, no British lives. It imperilled very many. It brought the only fighting there was on the Canal. It has blocked it, with disastrous consequences, not for us only, but for 40 innocent nations in Europe and Asia, for many months to come.
    Let me say one further word about international law. The Lord Chancellor has said that Article 2 of the Charter, which obliges every Member of the United Nations to refrain from the use or threat of force in all its international relations, does not mean what it so plainly says. With all respect, the Lord Chancellor's argument is in the Bethman Hollweg class. It would make the Charter another "scrap of paper." That is why Lord McNair, a former President of the International Court, wrote to The Times last week to say that the Government's action was "illegal" and that in any judicial tribunal a verdict would be given decisively against us.
    There is another most disturbing aspect of the Government's distortion of the Charter. It is another blow at the hopes of genuine Commonwealth co-operation in times to come. Again, we need more
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    truth than we have been given. When he made his first statement about his ultimatum, the Prime Minister said:
    "We have … kept in close consultation with the Commonwealth Governments …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 30th October, 1956; Vol. 558, c. 1295]
    On 8th November, the Colonial Secretary said that it was "quite untrue" to suggest
    "that there had been a breakdown in the machinery and, even more serious, in the spirit of"—
    Commonwealth
    "consultation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th November, 1956; Vol. 560, c. 286.]
    If anything is quite untrue, it is what the Colonial Secretary then said.
    There have been three points of maximum danger in the last three months. First, the Government's decision of 2nd August, revealed to the Press but not to this House, to resort to force. Second, the proposal of the Users' Association as an excuse—for that is how the Government meant to use it—for using force. Thirdly, the Government's 12-hour ultimatum to Egypt two weeks ago.
    I want to ask the Lord Privy Seal, for we have a right to know, did the Government inform the Commonwealth Governments in advance of any one of these three grave decisions, which involved the paramount issue of peace and war for all the subjects of the Queen? If so, did they get one single answer that gave them even a shadow of support? If, in fact, more messages passed during these last three months than ever before, have the Government gone obstinately ahead with their plan for war, knowing that the Commonwealth was overwhelmingly against them and totally ignoring the many warnings, public and private, which they had received? That is not consultation as the Commonwealth has known it for thirty years. Let the Government read the Balfour Report of 1926. They will see that they have torn the work of generations of British and Dominion statesmen into shreds.
    Professor Keith Feiling, an eminent authority on Commonwealth relations, who started in public life by organising Young Conservatives, sums up the Government's policy like this:
    "Ministers have acted as if the Commonwealth were negligible. They have brushed aside its doubts, and taken life and death decisions without consultation. Most unforgivable of all to my mind … has been

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    their treatment of Canada and India. Canada, oldest and most wisely governed of Dominions, our link with America, whose measureless sacrifices for us in two World Wars earned our lasting gratitude…. India has been cold-shouldered…. And what soldiers from Pakistan … will raise a finger for us now? It does not seem beyond the bounds of historical accuracy to describe such a Commonwealth policy as short-sighted, ungrateful, and politically imbecile."
    That is a Conservative speaking.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: The right hon. Member has quoted fairly completely what Professor Keith Feiling of Christ Church has said. Will he quote from the same issue of the same paper what Professor Roy Harrod, also of Christ Church, said, and thereby prove that in this matter, as in many others, people are deeply divided?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: If the Colonial Secretary would look up his own quotations from the European Press, I should listen to him more gladly. I respect Mr. Harrod as a great economist, but he is not a very great authority on Commonwealth relations.
    In what the Government have told us about the United States truth has been harder still to find. When he made his first statement about his ultimatum on 30th October, the Prime Minister said:
    "We have been in close communication … with the United States Government…."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th October, 1956; Vol. 558, c. 1295.]
    Who could guess from that odd, calculated, disingenuous, deliberately misleading phrase what really happened? After Israel mobilised, President Eisenhower called two meetings in Washington on 28th and 29th October. The 29th was the day of the Israeli attack.
    On the morning of 30th October, the Prime Minister told us, there was a conversation between the Foreign Secretary and the United States Ambassador in respect of action to be taken in the Security Council that very afternoon. At four o'clock that afternoon the ultimatum was despatched. At none of those three meetings did our spokesman give a single hint to the United States that an ultimatum would be delivered and war conditionally declared within a matter of hours.
    Is that accurately described as being in close communication with the United
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    States Government over what had happened and what was to happen at a most dangerous crisis in Middle East affairs? I still find it hardly credible that the Government should have treated President Eisenhower and the American nation in that way. I am not surprised that the Prime Minister should say at the Guildhall that he would go anywhere and meet anybody. The question is: who will go where to meet him? Again, as with the Commonwealth, there is only one way to start to heal the breach with the United States. It is to prove by words and deeds that we are genuinely loyal to the Charter of the U.N.
    There is another subject with which my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) admirably dealt this afternoon on which more truth is needed. Why did the Washington correspondent of The Times report on 31st October that informed commentators made no bones about saying that Britain, France and Israel were executing a pre-concerted military and political movement? We are not making accusations, we are asking questions.
    These are the questions to which the Lord Privy Seal and the Government ought to give a candid answer. First, the Foreign Secretary flew back from the Security Council through the night of 15th October, two days after the Prime Minister had told the Tory Conference that force was not excluded. He landed on the morning of the 16th and went straight to a Cabinet meeting at which the C.I.G.S. was present. He flew on within an hour to Paris with the Prime Minister. They were closeted there for five hours with French Ministers with no advisers present. What happened then?
    Second, did the Government know that French troops were massing around Marseilles after that meeting on 16th October? Third, were our Valiant bombers moved to Malta after that meeting? Fourth, what is their answer to the American accusation that the British and French Military Attachés in Tel Aviv and Cairo shut up like oysters and refused to exchange information and opinions for some time before the Israeli coup?
    Fifth, why did our Ambassador in Tel Aviv, when he asked for assurances that Jordan would not be attacked, say

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    nothing about an attack on Egypt, an attack which, say the Government, would imperil the Canal?
    Sixth, did the Government know that Israeli officers were in consultation with the French General Staff in Paris from 26th October onwards?
    Seventh, how do they explain the fact that the Jewish Observer, which is particularly well-informed on these affairs, wrote on the 26th October these pregnant words:
    "France will back Israel unequivocally should the need for it arise. The French might go as far as using their veto power."
    Eighth, how do they explain the fact that a journalist—I have the original of his dispatch—reported from Tel Aviv on 26th October:
    "This is a tense weekend, potentially the most explosive since 1948. Here is the pattern of things to come as nearly as can be pieced together from this end: Franco-British military action against Nasser; simultaneously Iraqi troops are expected to move into Jordan to provide one more and pretty big headache for the Egyptian dictator."
    Then he speaks in guarded terms of what Israel would do and says:
    "One cannot help feeling that the Sabbath peace is likely to be rudely disrupted."
    That was on 26th October, straight from Tel Aviv. That message was never published, for the London editor of his paper thought it too fantastic to appear in print.
    Ninth, the Government must know of the uncontradicted reports in M. Mendès-Franee's paper, L'Express, that French troops had been issued with occupation currency, Egyptian currency, that French officers were warned for active service at an unknown destination, that French tanks and vehicles were camouflaged with desert colours.
    Tenth, the Israeli action—and this is a point which I hope the Lord Privy Seal will take into account, for in my view it is decisive—started from Elath, a few yards from Aqaba where the 10th Hussars are stationed. The Government must have been warned by the 10th Hussars days before that the Israelis were preparing for an attack.
    If the Government knew nothing about the Israeli plan, they must prove it. Unless they answer the questions which we have put, they are self-condemned, and the world will judge them by the standards which they applied to the squalid plots by which Hitler and Mussolini
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    ushered in their aggressions in the 'thirties. There is only one way in which they can answer these questions to the satisfaction of the British people and the world. That is by setting up a Select Committee to make a full inquiry into the origins of this war on Egypt, which my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) has so persuasively proposed. This is a challenge to the Government. Let them set up the Select Committee. If they fail to do so, we promise them that we will do it when we come to power.
    In the last three weeks the Prime Minister has been like an impotent and blinded Samson, striving—happily, in vain—to pull down the international temple about his ears. But, alas, he has succeeded in littering the world with the wreckage of British interests which he has damaged or destroyed.
    His war on Egypt, said Senator George, was the death-knell of N.A.T.O. The whole British position in the Middle East has suffered a shattering blow—a rupture with Saudi Arabia, the stoppage of Saudi oil to the refinery at Bahrein, the triumph of the anti-British party in Jordan, the total disruption of the Bagdad Pact, hostile demonstrations in Bahrein, Kuwait and Qater against Britain, places from which so much of our oil supplies have come. Our bases in Jordan and Libya are gravely compromised, our immense prestige in Asia has largely gone, and the leadership which we used to exercise in the United Nations will be impossible for many a day to come.
    The Government are anxious to repair the damage. They can do it only in the United Nations. For three months, right hon. and hon. Members opposite, including Ministers, have scoffed at the United Nations, at its impotence, its divisions, its delays. But the last two weeks must have shattered some of the false illusions in their minds. "What is the good of taking a serious question to the Security Council?" they used to ask. "It is always paralysed by the Russian veto."
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), in his brilliant analysis this afternoon, showed that when Israeli forces marched into Egypt two weeks ago, the Government, deceiving the House of Commons on the subject, cast the only veto with France against the

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    resolution that was proposed. In casting that veto, the Government clearly hoped that they would paralyse the United Nations until Britain and France could present them with a fait accompli on the Canal—another Hitler technique. But they under-estimated the resource and courage of the other members of the United Nations and their faith in the Charter.
    The other members regarded our veto as a disloyal attempt to frustrate the Charter and to cover up our flagrant violation of its fundamental obligation. In a matter of hours they summoned a Special Assembly, where there is no veto and where a decision by two-thirds is binding on every member of the United Nations. They got not two-thirds but 64 votes to 5, or, more accurately, 64 to 2, because nobody attaches value to the votes of Charter-breakers. By a vote of 64 to 2 the United Nations challenged our Government to stop their Charter-breaking, to cease their attacks on Egypt, and to evacuate our forces from Egyptian soil.
    For three months, hon. Members opposite have scoffed at United Nations resolutions. They laughed and jeered when we on this side of the House said two weeks ago, as my right hon. Friend said today, that if we had backed the Security Council resolution, instead of casting that first base British veto, the Israelis would have withdrawn from their venture. They laughed and jeered, but again they under-estimated the strength and power of a United Nations Assembly resolution. Hon. Members opposite are still laughing at the United Nations, and the country still listens.
    Brigadier O. L. Prior-Palmer: Two hundred resolutions.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: An Assembly resolution mobilises the informed opinion, the juristic conscience of mankind. It does more—it authorises members of the United Nations to oppose aggression. In the last two weeks, Assembly resolutions have made the Israeli Government, flushed with victory, pledge themselves to withdraw their troops to the line from which they started. Assembly resolutions have halted an offensive by two major military Powers and have made Britain and France withdraw their troops from the land which they had unjustifiably attacked.
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    Will the Suez group laugh at resolutions of the General Assembly after that? The Government—even the Lord Chancellor—are saying that they roused the United Nations to new life and action by what they did two weeks ago. So did the Communists when they attacked from North Korea in 1950. And the Government's method of stirring the United Nations to action has been just the same.
    The Government say now that they want a strong United Nations force. When I proposed it a week ago last Wednesday HANSARD records that I was interrupted by shouts of "Oh"—that is HANSARD'S prudish way of registering the loud cries of derision which came from the benches opposite. When I said that a force could be formed from contingents from nations other than the great Powers HANSARD says that there was laughter.
    The President of the Board of Trade was one of those who laughed. Now the Government want a United Nations force. All right. They want it strong. All right again. They cannot want it for the Suez area only. They must want it to prevent future wars, not only to stop our own. But if a United Nations force, which we have always favoured, is to play a major part in international affairs, there must be a massive disarmament of the national forces now kept by the nations of the world. That means a revolution in the thinking of the Tory Party. It means a revolution in the present conduct of international affairs.
    Mr. Kenneth Thompson: What about the Russians?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: We on this side of the House are ready for that revolution.
    Mr. Thompson: Are the Russians?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: We believe that it is overdue. So are the peoples ready. I do not think there is 0·1 per cent. of human beings who do not detest the folly, waste and cruelty of armaments and war.
    Last week the peoples looked into the abyss. They had a vision of hydrogen bombs wiping out the cities, the work of thirty centuries of civilised endeavour. They saw their children burned in the hellish conflagrations which the bombs ignite. They saw survivors, for long years and decades, suffering from the fall-out radiation which the bombs must cause. I hope that members of the Tory

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    Party saw those visions too. I hope they will help from now onwards to make our nation a bulwark of ordered law and peace.
    9.28 p.m.
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): It was originally arranged through the usual channels that we should have a general debate on the Loyal Address, and that meant dealing with home affairs and with the whole content of the Gracious Speech. Accordingly I prepared an oration on those lines, but it has become clear to me that the debate has been concentrated entirely on the Suez question, and therefore I do not propose to spend literally more than two minutes in referring to one or two matters on the home front before I launch into dealing with the general affair which has occupied us the entire day.
    On the home front, I shall be making the usual business statements from time to time. We are starting on four minor Bills in the immediate future. The major Bill, the Homicide Bill, will also be taken in the immediate future, and we shall in due course get further with the programme which we have designed for a general reform, not only of our institutions, but of the general progress of our economy. That will be the theme of the Session, which I must warn the House, as its Leader, will be a heavy one, but one which I think will fall within the ordinary compass of what we can manage. We shall attempt to take as many Bills as possible in Standing Committee, but there will be some Bills which will have to be taken on the Floor of the House, in particular the Homicide Bill, and also the Bill dealing with the new customs duties, because that has financial aspects. However, I shall endeavour in the course of this to meet the convenience of hon. Members to the best of my ability.
    Mr. Woodburn: Will the Rent Bill be taken on the Floor of the House?
    Mr. Butler: It will be taken upstairs in Standing Committee.
    I should like, as Leader of the House, to pay a tribute to the new Leader of the Liberal Party before I become involved in controversy, which I should like to do as soon as possible. We have been impressed by the contributions which he has made to our debates already, even when we have disagreed with him. We
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    all look forward to his further contributions in the knowledge that he will uphold and adorn the great traditions of his predecessors in office. We also look forward with curiosity and interest to the effect upon his party's solidarity in the Division Lobby of one who recently was the Liberal Party Chief Whip.
    We shall, in the course of conducting the business of this Session, be indulging in a considerable degree of reform in one way and another. I do not propose to follow my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary in his brilliant speech this afternoon on the subject of colonial affairs. That is my answer, in all courtesy, to the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker), for the matter was referred to by my right hon. Friend. We shall indulge in the measures of reform in the colonial field which form so large a feature of the Gracious Speech.
    We shall also envisage the constitutional reform mentioned in the Gracious Speech. It is intended that proposals shall be put forward, probably initially in another place, as they affect the composition of another place, about the reconstitution of the House of Lords. We shall then have an opportunity of looking at them, giving our view upon them, and considering the future course to adopt. That, I feel, is wise, and I think it fits in with the general mood of this House.
    Then there is a considerable degree of reform of local government which we shall have to envisage, in which we shall have to consider not only the reactions of local authorties to the White Paper on local government organisation, but also the reactions to the Government's review of local government finance which we are at present undertaking. This, combined with the Homicide Bill, the Rent Bill and the development of our housing policy on the lines which we have already envisaged, gives us, I think, a programme not only of magnitude but of imagination to occupy us for the rest of the Session.
    That is the speech which I had prepared to last half an hour. I shall now turn to the controversial matters which have been raised in the course of the Suez debate, which has, in fact, gone on for yet another day.
    The right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger), speaking in his constituency at the weekend, said that the only

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    nations left with prestige in the Middle East were the United States and Russia. I myself should take up this challenge. I believe that we have all had an opportunity now, in our party at any rate, of visiting our constituencies. We are impressed not by the observations of the right hon. Member for Grimsby, but by the reactions which we ourselves have obtained. Those reactions are that the Government have had courage to act in an exceptionally difficult circumstance. I assure hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, as I shall not cease to rub in in a few minutes' time, that the position politically in the constituencies is not exactly what they think it to be.
    Mr. Younger Mr. Younger rose—
    Mr. Butler: I am sorry; I cannot give way. I must get on, because it is so late. [HON. MEMBERS: "Give way."] I did the right hon. Gentleman the honour of quoting him.
    The observations of my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery)—who made a characteristic and straightforward intervention in our debate this afternoon—are true, namely, that the industrial constituencies are even more in favour of the Government than are the others. I, being characterised in certain of the more glorious sections of the Press as of a somewhat academic disposition, find it really remarkable how the ordinary British working man and woman are behind the Prime Minister and the Government at the present time. Not only are they behind the Government at the present time, but we have the inestimable advantage of the words of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) when visiting his constituency. He said:
    "I think it will be shown that our action, although drastic and fraught with difficulties and dangers "—
    which no one on this side of the House would deny—
    "will prove in the long run to have been right."
    That is the view of the right hon. Member for Easington and, when backed up by the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger), who spoke earlier in our debate this evening, we see that there is a growing volume of support for our action, some even plucked from the benches opposite.
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    The most important observation made by the right hon. Gentleman was that we in this House should not use words which would encourage international gangsters—that is the word he used—to exercise their influence against the British at the present time. It would be a very good thing if the Opposition, led by its leader—who has had the courtesy to inform me that, for personal reasons, he has had to leave the House this evening; which I fully accept—and supported by their vociferous supporters, would do something to introduce a little more patriotism and understanding—[Interruption.]
    Mr. J. Griffiths: I would inform the Lord Privy Seal that hon. Members on this side of the House deeply resent the suggestion that the Tories are the only patriots.
    Mr. Butler: The right hon. Gentleman must have a very tender conscience. I never said that. The Tories are not the only patriots. I find that the most patriotic persons are the supporters of the right hon. Gentleman's party who are now supporting us.
    I wondered why the right hon. Member for Derby, South had been chosen to speak in this debate. I find that one of his contributions to foreign policy, which I remember since my days as the solitary Minister at the Foreign Office, when I answered him and one or two other hon. Members—including the late Ellen Wilkinson—on foreign policy for many years, was his foreword to a very remarkable book called "Socialism and Foreign Policy", by the Socialist Union. The book includes this extraordinary statement:
    "The British Labour movement is torn by incessant inner conflict on foreign policy, perhaps more than on any other subject."
    That is what we find to be true when we look back upon the variety of splits in the Labour movement over the last few years, and remember the complaint of Ernest Bevin at Margate, on 29th May, 1947, that he had been stabbed in the back. They are now enjoying a temporary unity in the midst of the perpetual dissension which is a typical characteristic of their own policy.
    Mr. Robens Mr. Robens rose—
    Mr. Butler: I am coming to the right hon. Gentleman, because I want to answer his speech. I understand that the Daily Mirror, after inquiring today whether I have any guts, a question which

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    it does not seem to have answered, is going to make a statement tomorrow as to who is to be the next Labour Foreign Secretary. I say quite seriously as a House of Commons man that the right hon. Gentleman today made one of the best speeches of his life. That is a sincere tribute in my capacity as Leader of the House.
    The position about the Leader of the Opposition, however, is not nearly so satisfactory. My own opinion about the broadcast reply of the Leader of the Opposition to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is that never in the field of political conflict has so large a brick been dropped to such small effect. [Interruption.] His attempts, as some of the Press has said over the weekend, to make appeals to any of us to desert the Prime Minister and our Government at the present time are absolutely useless. The truth is that the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends tonight are disappointed men. They had hoped to get a shoal of fish into their net; they had hoped for much bigger fish than they have caught.
    Mr. Donald Chapman: Answer the debate.
    Mr. Butler: I have been responsible for comparing the Socialist Party to the amours of Romeo and Juliet. There is now showing in London a film known as Moby Dick, and the right hon. Gentleman has seen himself in the capacity of Captain Ahab on the bridge of the "Pequod" with a desire to harpoon Moby Dick. What has happened to him and to the Socialist Party, and what is likely to happen to them in the country, is that in a bitter and choppy sea they are lashed in mortal conflict with the great white whale from Ebbw Vale.
    Mr. Chapman: Answer the debate.
    Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Member for Northfield (Mr. Chapman) cannot contain himself, his duty to the House is to leave the Chamber.
    Mr. Chapman: I have been sitting here all day listening to what has been a magnificent debate, a day of which Parliament can be proud. I think that all of us who have sat here are entitled to have the debate answered. That is all I am saying.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Northfield has his own contribution to make to that result, which is to remain silent while other people are speaking.
    Mr. Butler: I consider, Mr. Speaker, that the remarks made by the right hon. Member for Derby, South comparing the actions of this Government with Mussolini and Hitler deserve the answer which I have given, and I do not propose to mince words when insults like that are thrown across the House. I will, in answer to the hon. Member for Northfield (Mr. Chapman) and other hon. Members, attempt to answer some of the points made in the debate. If hon. Members cannot take it, then I am sorry for them.
    The first main question was put in a sincere speech, with which I did not agree, by the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey). I think that one of the most revolting aspects of our debates on the Suez question has been the attitude of the Opposition that by our action in Egypt we have in some way affected the situation in Hungary. I entirely repudiate that suggestion on behalf of the Government.
    We have the truth straight from the horse's mouth, for Mr. Shepilov himself, twenty-four hours before the British note was sent to the Egyptian and Israeli Governments, attended a reception in Moscow and, according to the Daily Herald, said in an interview:
    "Russian troops will withdraw from Budapest only when the rebels in the city have surrendered."
    I have made it my business to obtain from the Foreign Office an exact chronological description, starting with 23rd October, which indicates that there is absolutely no doubt, as was the case in the Middle East, that the Russians premeditated this action, and I do not believe that anybody really believes anything else.
    I should like to add constructively that I am sorry to say that the Hungarian Government have decided not to permit the entry of U.N.O. observers, which is the latest information I can get. I am also informed that the Hungarian Red Cross will gratefully receive Red Cross supplies, and we shall attempt to see that such supplies are distributed. For the rest, I can only say that this is one of the most ghastly tragedies any man or woman could ever have witnessed, I only hope that hon. Members on all sides will

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    confine their horror to the tragedy and not enlarge it into the political field.
    The right hon. Member for Derby, South said that the Commonwealth had been torn into shreds. I thought that for two minutes I might give the House the latest news about the Commonwealth which I have obtained from the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations. I am glad to say that the Canadian Foreign Secretary, Mr. Lester Pearson, upon whose help we so much count in our present difficulties and whose experience is of such value to us, has said that although their views have not always been the same as those of other members of the Commonwealth this position has not affected friendly relations with those members, and added:
    "especially, if I may say so, with the United Kingdom."
    I pass to Australia and Mr. Menzies, who has been so much in our counsels. He took the 18-Power plan to Cairo and was more disappointed than any man that it was not carried through. He said:
    "I believe the United Kingdom and France have pursued their intervention not for territorial conquest, not for any purpose of domination, but to produce peace where the world needs peace so that when the United Nations produces an international body in this area, it will not have to fight its way in, but will be in such a shape and in such a position that it may first keep the belligerents apart and then bring them together for a sensible and honest solution of their differences."
    That was a typically statesmanlike utterance by Mr. Menzies, which the Government endorse. Similar statements of support came from Mr. Holland of New Zealand on 5th November, when he said:
    "I have never been in the slightest doubt that both the United Kingdom and the United States have as their main objective the preservation of peace."
    That is backed by other members of his Government. We have statements from South Africa and I have a statement from Pakistan by Mr. Suhrawady, whose personal friendship I happen to be able to acknowledge, saying:
    "a situation has been created which, if handled competently, may well render possible a permanent and just solution acceptable to the Arab people."
    On the subject of Pakistan and the Commonwealth I wish to say this. Mr. Suhrawady added this regarding the Commonwealth
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    "We are still in it and, if we are in the Commonwealth we are in it … I see no question of degrees."
    To that selection I may add a statement by Sir Roy Welensky of the Central African Federation, which stated:
    "It was with a feeling of relief that I learnt of Britain's decision to take some firm action."
    Hon. Members will see that although there have been strains which even those statements do not deny, I do not believe the statements of hon. Members opposite have been justified. I believe that with the United Nations and the Commonwealth we can build up a situation which can be as satisfactory as we can possibly make it. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan and Ceylon have all given indications that they are prepared to contribute towards an international force in Egypt. That, I think, is very important news because, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North and others who have asked about this force, I would say that we want an effective international force. We do not insist, for the reason of other big Powers perhaps not participating themselves, of participating ourselves, as the Prime Minister has himself said, but we intend to have an effective force. We intend that the arrangements shall be as satisfactory as they can be to achieve the objectives, namely a solution of all the problems in the Middle East for which we have all been so ardently working for so long.
    Mr. Crossman: In view of the news this morning from Cairo, is it a fact that President Nasser has said that he would like to make sure that the members of the force are those he agrees with? Is that something that we accept as a condition?
    Mr. Butler: The answer is that we are working with the United Nations. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I can answer the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), to whose speech I listened, by saying that we are working for a solution which the United Nations will accept and which we, as a member of the United Nations, think is just.
    An Hon. Member: Answer the question.
    Mr. Butler: The right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) referred also to the Atlantic Alliance. It is rather important

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    to recall to the House the words used by the retiring Supreme Allied Commander, General Gruenther, in Paris today, that the only thing that would be wrong in the present situation was injudicious criticism inside the Atlantic Alliance which might mislead the Soviets about our determination to use our offensive capacity, and that that could be a disaster. We appeal not only to this House but to the world in general to maintain a common front in the Atlantic Alliance as well as in our own country if we are to avoid a disaster.
    One other interesting feature of General Alfred Gruenther's last statement, made in Paris this afternoon, is:
    "I agree that unless the Middle East problem gets solved it will have an adverse effect on our European defence".
    He says:
    "The enemy has been forced to go round our flank by subversive action and local attacks".
    That means in the Middle East, and that is one of the reasons why the Government decided that this decisive action was necessary.
    I come to some of the points raised by the right hon. Member for Blyth. I cannot give him a final answer on the subject of the broadcast and the pamphlets. That was given in the columns of HANSARD by the Under-Secretary of State for War on the Adjournment a night or two ago. These pamphlets were distributed and the broadcast made to avoid civilian casualties in Cairo and elsewhere.
    I want to deny the alarmist and, indeed, ridiculous rumours that have arisen about the nature of the casualties in Egypt. One correspondent abroad has said that something like 7,000 or 12,000 civilians died in the Port Said fighting. This is a gross exaggeration. Probably no military operation has been carried out with more care or regard for civilian life than the present one. The whole operation was planned to minimise the destruction of property and life. Only after the Governor or Egyptian military commander who negotiated a surrender had rejected the terms on orders from Cairo was the bulk of the damage done on the town. The loss of life in Port Said took place after that event. After the resumption of those hostilities our troops had to occupy a certain number of strong points.
    In all the operations at Port Said the total Egyptian casualties, both military
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    and civilian, amounted, as far as we know, to: killed, 100; wounded, 540. I am informed that a hospital train has already left for Cairo with 194 casualties. Allied engineers are at work in restoring the normal life of the city with water, electricity and so forth. I am asked to add that we are expecting and hoping, and that we have already asked Sir Pierson Dixon to make representation to this effect, that the British salvage ships, which are, frankly, the only ones in the world which are capable of clearing the Canal, shall be put under the orders of the United Nations and employed in the clearance of the Canal. There is no other action which will quickly enough restore the economic difficulties to which the right hon. Gentleman referred in his speech. We shall hope for developments on that front, but at present I can say no more.
    I wish to say a word about reservists, what has been done with reservists recalled for the emergency and the Regular soldiers who have been kept in the Services after the expiry of their engagement. We cannot release all the reservists and retained Regulars at once. Many of them must be kept for some time to do the jobs for which they have been called up. Again, these men are stationed in different parts of the world and the speed with which they can be brought home when their jobs are done will be governed by the ships and aircraft available.
    We shall have, in particular, to continue to retain naval ratings in the majority of the categories, but my noble Friend the First Lord informs me that it is the aim of the Admiralty to release any rating, whether previously or in future retained, after a maximum of four months from the date of expiry of his Regular engagement. Within these limitations it is the intention of the Government to start releasing recalled reservists and retained Regulars as quickly as we can without impairing our ability to carry out the tasks which lie immediately ahead of us. No man will be kept in the Forces longer than he has to be. I am sure that I am expressing the feeling of the whole House in thanking, not only the Forces—in particular the Navy—for the actions they have undertaken, but also the reservists for the part which they have performed.
    The time is drawing to a close, and I wish to summarise the opinion as I see it on behalf of a united Government and

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    a united party. The right hon. Member for Blyth was bold enough to make up a balance-sheet. On the good side he put the cease-fire and the United Nations' police force. On the bad side he put the alienation of a portion of the world and our economic situation. I have already indicated that a large part of the civilised world and a great part of this country has now realised the motive which inspired my right hon. Friend, who has devoted the greater part of his life to the constructive task of making international agencies work. We had to take immediate action to deal with this emergency. Had we not taken immediate action, it is my own opinion that there would have been a boil-up in the Middle East in any case.
    In my view, we took action in time. We have now a great deal of difficulty and danger ahead, both political and economic. It would be wrong that the country should not realise it. In my opinion, we have to stand together to put things right, and we shall do so despite the criticism of right hon. Gentlemen opposite.
    Mr. Harold Davies Mr. Harold Davies (Leek)rose—
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Edward Heath)The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Edward Heath) rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
    Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.
    Mr. Harold Davies: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was on my feet—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I must put the Question forthwith.
    Mr. Harold Davies: On a point of order—
    Mr. Speaker: There can be no point of order.
    Question put accordingly and agreed to.
    Resolved,
    That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:—
    Most Gracious Sovereign,
    We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
    To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

  Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, Tomorrow.—[Mr. Heath.]
  Committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, Tomorrow.—[Mr. Heath.]

  PROCEDURE
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [9th November]:
  That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the practice of moving amendments on going into Committee of Supply upon the Navy, Army, Air and Civil Estimates; the practice relating to Money Resolutions; the extension of the Standing Orders relating to public money to expenditure from Funds partly, but not wholly, financed from the Exchequer, being expenditure not directly involving a charge upon the Consolidated Fund or upon money provided by Parliament; the numbers required to form a Quorum of, and for the Closure in, a Standing Committee; and the constitution of the Scottish Standing Committee, and to report whether any changes are desirable in the Standing Orders, practice or procedure of the House in these matters or in matters connected therewith.—[Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith.]
  Question put and agreed to.
  Committee to consist of Sixteen Members;
  Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray, Lieutenant-Commander Baldock, Mr. Bellenger, Sir Herbert Butcher, Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas, Sir Thomas Dugdale, Mr. Elliot, Mr. Eric Fletcher, Sir Lancelot Joynson-Hicks, Mr. Glenvil Hall, Viscount Hinchingbrooke, Mr. Mitchison, Mr. Pickthorn, Mr. Kenneth Thompson, Mr. Wade, and Mr. Woodburn:
  Power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House; and to report from time to time:
  Five to be the Quorum.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]

  RATING AND VALUATION, SCOTLAND (ASSESSORS)
  10.2 p.m.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: I beg to move.
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Local Government (Qualifications of Assessors) (Scotland) Regulations, 1956 (S.I., 1956, No. 1594), dated 10th October, 1956, a copy of which was laid before this House on 17th October, in the last Session of Parliament, be annulled.
  My purpose in moving this prayer is not to divide the House or to ask the Government to cancel the Regulations as they stand, unless we are not satisfied that the Government have done the right thing. There have been questions raised in regard to the procedure taken by the Government in dealing with these Regulations, and we think that it is right that they should tell the House why they have done this in this way and whether it is the only way in which it could be done.
  The Act empowers the Secretary of State to prescribe qualifications for the people who are to act as assessors. I take it that the purpose is to ensure that only competent people are appointed to these positions. The question arises whether the Government have not just taken the easiest way to ensure that somebody qualified is appointed and whether they have not. in taking the easiest way, excluded from the possibility of appointment other people who may be equally qualified but who cannot possibly apply under these limited qualifications.
  The first question which I should like to ask the Joint Under-Secretary of State is why only three societies can be considered as authorities regarding the qualifications of people who are to be assessors? Why is it limited to these three societies, because by limiting the certification or qualification to them it is in effect giving them a monopoly as to who may be assessors and who may not. In previous Acts of Parliament there has been a much wider field. For instance, in regard to the qualification of county treasurers and town chamberlains a very large number of societies were included as possible authorities for the appointment of such people. There are people
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  who have been doing this work for a great number of years. There is, of course, that school of experience. I recognise at once the difficulty, unless some standard is set, of merely saying that because a person has done the job for a number of years he is of necessity qualified. In discussing these matters on the passing of the Bill, we took the view that there ought to be assured qualifications.
  I wish to ask the Secretary of State whether he has considered the position of those individuals who have been doing these jobs and who definitely have the qualifications although they are not members of these societies. Is there any way in which they could be considered for these appointments? It is possible that among the assessors there might be some who are well qualified to do the job. Is there any way in which these societies could test the qualifications of such people to see that they are not excluded?
  It would be an injustice to exclude a man who has been doing the job successfully and yet to admit people who may have the necessary qualifications without any guarantee that they can do the job. The mere fact that a person becomes a. paper engineer does not mean that he is a good engineer. On the other hand, there are some people who never became paper engineers but who managed businesses successfully and conducted great engineering establishments which achieved a high degree of success.
  We are anxious to ensure that there will not be any injustice and that people will not be excluded automatically just because they do not belong to one of the societies. The restrictions to these three societies appears on the surface unduly to limit the field for recruiting purposes. Are there any other societies, such as the Land and Valuation Society, or others, which might be included in the list? Has there been any invitation to these societies to offer themselves as guarantors as to quality?
  Suppose a civil servant from the staff of the Board of Inland Revenue who has been doing similar work for many years wishes to apply for a job. Would he be considered to have the necessary qualifications? Is there any doubt that he might not have as good qualifications as

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  some of those who are members of these societies? I do not want to review all the possibilities, but it seems that there are many and that we may be unduly restricting the area of recruitment.
  I assure the Government that we have no desire to get round the provisions of the Act which wants the Secretary of State to ensure that qualified assessors are appointed. It is not with any idea of lowering the standard that we ask these questions. We merely wish to ensure that nobody is excluded merely because he is not a member of one of these chosen societies. We hear a lot about chosen races and chosen societies, and one wants to leave it open to everyone who has the qualifications to be able to apply for the job. We hope that there may be some method of testing the qualifications of anyone who wishes to apply, especially those who have been doing similar work. They should have an equal opportunity with those who are members of the societies.
  10.10 p.m.
  Colonel Sir Alan Gomme-Duncan: I will not detain the House for more than a minute. The right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) has largely expressed the anxieties which some of us have as to whether automatically the fact that a person has a certificate from one of the three societies named in the Regulations necessarily makes him better than somebody who has already been doing the job for some time. What we want from my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State is an assurance that the best man will be chosen for the job. It is quite likely that a young man who has just passed his examination could not hold a candle in efficiency and practical knowledge to a man who had been doing it for years.
  My second point is to ask whether we can be certain that those who are now holding these positions will be compensated for loss of livelihood if they are not chosen—and we realise that some of them will not be chosen. Those are the two points I wish to put. A lot depends on what the Minister has to say, for there is an anxiety throughout Scotland that under the Regulations it will not be the best man who is chosen but the man
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  who has the paper qualifications. That is what I am not very happy about.
  10.11 p.m.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: I support my right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Wood-burn) in praying against the Regulations, but I would feel more strongly against the content of the actual Regulations than did my right hon. Friend. It seems to me that the Regulations in their operation may lead to manifest personal injustices. I fully support the motive behind the Regulation—the desire to raise the professional standards in assessment throughout Scotland; I have no quarrel with that. The method by which this is being done, however, breaks past precedents in such a way that personal hardships will be caused.
  I am concerned about the position in the city which I represent. As I think the Joint Under-Secretary knows, because I have had correspondence with him, the position in Dundee will be particularly serious when the new Regulations come into operation. In Dundee, whose status as a valuation authority is not altered in any way by the Act, we have the position that under the new legislation the existing city assessor will be one of the unqualified persons and will not be entitled to apply for the post which he at present holds. As I understand it, the post and the job will be exactly the same, and the present city assessor of Dundee has behind him 30 years of experience in the City of Dundee as a principal officer in the Assessor's Department and as city assessor.
  I assure the Minister that as far as official and representative feeling in Dundee goes, there has been every possible satisfaction with the professional skill of this official. Representations have been made to me both from town councillors and from official sections within the corporation and I assure the Minister that everybody in Dundee, on both sides of the corporation and in the corporation service itself, feels that an injustice will be done if the Regulations operate in such a way that under the new Act this man, who has behind him so many years of great experience, is not to be entitled to be considered for the post.

  889
  In correspondence with the Minister, I have had the reply that assessors who are not qualified under the new Regulations will still be entitled to serve in the departments and may even be entitled to higher emoluments than they at present receive. That, however, is not the point. In the personal case to which I have referred—I give it only as an example of what may well be other personal anomalies in the operation of the Regulations—the officer has behind him 30 years of professional work. By the time that one has that amount of life behind one, it is not really the salary which one is earning which counts. If one has only ten further years of public service ahead, what matters is the status which one holds in the community which one has served for that length of time. It is very unfortunate if, after all that length of time with complete local satisfaction, these Regulations are to operate in such a way that an officer is to be demoted.
  If normal precedent had been followed, this kind of thing would not have happened. The position of assessors seems exactly similar to that of city chamberlains or county treasurers whose posts were the subject of very similar legislation under a previous Administration a few years ago. In those cases it was specifically laid down that in trying to raise the general professional standards those who had ten or twenty years' service in the finance departments of local authorities and who were either city chamberlains or deputes or county treasurers or deputes should be entitled to be considered for those positions. There are other precedents in other kinds of public service. When comparable changes were made in England, allowance was made for assessors qualified by experience, but not qualified on paper.
  It is a great pity and rather hard to understand that similar- flexibility was not laid down in these Regulations. Only a very few people are involved, but this House does not measure an injustice by the number of people involved in it. I hope that even at this stage the Government will feel able to say that they will take back the Regulations and reconsider them. I have every support for efforts to raise professional standards, but I hope that the Government will reconsider this matter in order to try to avoid creating personal injustice.
  10.17 p.m.
  Captain J. A. L. Duncan: I cannot quarrel with what the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) has said. He has made the sort of case which I want to make for the County of Angus, but the County of Angus has a case even more extreme than that of the City of Dundee. After serving in the First World War, the county assessor went into the office of the Glasgow city assessor in 1918 or 1919. He entered his father's office of county assessor of Angus at about 1920 and became the county assessor in 1922 when his father resigned.
  The county assessor of Angus has therefore had 34 years' experience of this work and was trained not only in Glasgow, but by his father, who had been county assessor before him. After 34 years' experience, it seems a little hard that this man should have to give up his official position on 16th May next year. The suggestion that he should be made a special assistant in the new valuation assessor's office, even with higher emoluments, does not really meet the point, because, as the hon. Member for Dundee, East has said, he loses his status as the county assessor.
  In those days, when a man became an assessor, no qualifications were required. Indeed, it was not possible or necessary for a county assessor to become qualified. These Regulations come as a great blow to a man who has worked so efficiently and so well.
  Mr. Thomas Fraser: Does not the hon. and gallant Member appreciate that it is not these Regulations, but an Act of Parliament which he so enthusiastically supported, which provides that his assessor will give up his appointment on 15th May?
  Captain Duncan: The hon. Member is introducing party quarrels. I hope that he will not do so, because the Act says that the man should be a properly qualified assessor. I do not object to that, but I am suggesting that 34 years' experience is a proper qualification. The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) ought to keep quiet and allow me to make my case without interruption.
  Mr. T. Fraser Mr. T. Fraser rose—
  Captain Duncan: No, I shall not give way. The hon. Gentleman has interrupted enough.
  There is another matter. There are four county assessors and 12 other assessors in the same position. There are not very many suitable persons in Scotland for these jobs. If the Angus County Council, for instance, and Dundee City Council and may be Perth County Council are all obliged to find by 16th May new people properly qualified they may find it extremely difficult to do so.
  I ask my hon. Friend whether he can consider redrafting these Regulations, so that they may follow the lines of the legislation dealing with county treasurers and other people. I ask him to introduce a saving clause to safeguard the position of those with, say, twenty years' experience of this office. In the nature of things these people will pass in a few years' time into honourable retirement. I should have thought it would have eased the task of those who have to appoint these rather specially qualified people if there were some elasticity, some saving clause, in the Regulations to protect these officers.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Sir A. Gomme-Duncan) argued about compensation. I do not think there is any doubt that the Angus man is covered for compensation. Perhaps the situation is different in Perth. This is not, however, a question of the interests of the man so much as a question of the interests of the county. For the two reasons I have mentioned, because a man is properly qualified after 34 years' service, and because of the difficulty that the county council will have in finding a man, perhaps a young and inexperienced but qualified man, to take over the work, I think some saving clause should be introduced, and I hope my hon. Friend will reconsider the matter.
  10.22 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: It is rather a pity that the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for South Angus (Captain Duncan) should have gone out of his way to shout down my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser), who intervened, because my hon. Friend was quite right. These Regulations are based on the fact that under Statute valuation officers in Scotland give
  892
  up their jobs on 15th May next. The rub is that the appointments thereafter are to be very many fewer. Because of the changes which we have made by the new Act there are fewer posts than there are at present people employed on this job.
  This has been a triumph for the assessors. It is very unfair indeed of the Government to assume that of the assessors presently working in Scotland the best and most qualified are those who happen to belong to three societies. The numbers affected are so small that the Department must surely know every one of them personally, and can make a fair assessment of his abilities.
  We cannot amend these arbitrary Regulations. We can only pray against them, and vote against them, and that is not very desirable in this instance. It is very unfair of the Government to decide that there is not one of these people fit to take one of the new posts. I am sure that the Joint Under-Secretary of State does not really believe that himself. I am sure that the Secretary of State does not. We on this side of the House are as anxious as anybody to raise the general standards of assessment throughout Scotland, and we gave our support to that object in Scottish Grand Committee when the last Measure affecting it was in Committee.
  Surely the interpretation of the Section, whereby we seek to raise the standards and which refers to qualified persons, does not mean that anyone who happens to be doing the job and is a fellow or professional associate of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, or a fellow or associate of the Chartered Auctioneers' and Estate Agents' Institute, or a fellow or qualified associate of the Land Agents' Society, is qualified for the job, and that those people and those people only are qualified. Nor surely does it mean that someone who is not doing the job at present but happens to be a member of one of these bodies can do the job better than someone who is acting as a county surveyor of Angus or is the gentleman referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson). That is terribly unfair, and I sincerely hope that the Government will reconsider it.
  It is obvious that anyone who is acting as surveyor in a large burgh or county cannot continue to be acting in a similar

  893
  post when there is a reduced number of posts. Obviously, those people should have a right to apply and be considered on their qualifications, be they paper qualifications plus experience, or paper qualifications alone, or experience alone. We have to trust to the good sense of the people who are making the appointments. My recollection of the Act fails me, but cannot the Secretary of State also have an ultimate voice in these appointments? Surely, we should rest on that, out of fairness to the people who have been doing the job and many of whom may be capable of filling the post.
  It should be remembered that not only cannot they be assessors but they cannot be even depute assessors under the Regulations. I hope that the Secretary of State, who has heard the powerful case put forward tonight, will consider withdrawing the Regulations. I do not think that it would be a wrong thing to do. It would not be a defeat for the Government. It would be a victory for good sense, and I hope that he will do it.
  10.27 p.m.
  Mr. J. C. George: I have a great deal of sympathy with the Prayer. I hope that we shall not look at this problem as a party matter. Very few men are involved. It is illuminating to look round the House and to notice that there are more hon. Members interested in the question than there are assessors or depute assessors involved in the problem.
  It has been made quite clear that the assessors and depute assessors cease to hold their positions on a certain date and that they cannot apply for the new job. There are possibly a dozen involved, and that fact makes us feel most strongly on the point. The House is never more definitely for righting an injustice than when it is defending one person, and we are talking about a dozen. It is part of the case that few are involved. The Regulations could not have been made if many had been involved.
  There are plenty of precedents for the protection of people occupying a job which ceases to exist as a result of Regulations. In many of these precedents there are arrangements for the retention of the position. We are not asking for that retention but simply that these people be given the right to apply for the job. As the hon. Member for Kilmarnock
  894
  (Mr. Ross) said, we can safely leave the selection of suitable people to the councils involved, and we have heard from both sides of the House of the confidence that we put in local councils. I am certain that we can leave it to them to make sure that in the future, with the new changes brought about by the Act, suitable persons are employed as assessors.
  We are asking that these assessors should, somehow or other, be given the right to apply for the new jobs. We are told that compensation is to be paid, but compensation is no substitute for an interesting job. Men are not completely mercenary animals, to be paid off simply by offering them compensation. Most professional men love their work, and they value their local prestige and hate the thought of a premature idleness.
  In what they suggest are not these Regulations going against the modern idea of the length of the working life of professional people? In the educational field, have we not recently made arrangements whereby experienced headmasters and directors of education can continue beyond the age of 65, to the age of 70? Is not modern thought tending to the idea that people should work longer, and not be retired earlier? Are not these Regulations inconsistent with what we have been preaching in recent months?
  Why do the Regulations lay down that these men should be put out of their jobs and not given the right to apply for new ones unless they have certain qualifications? Is it on grounds of ability? We have heard from hon. Members on both sides of the House that many men with long experience will be unable to apply for the new posts. Is it that the methods of valuation will be vastly different? What we have heard is that in rating and valuation uniformity is the ideal to be striven for in the future, and I would suggest, therefore, that the future valuation of asessments must be easier.
  If we are to have uniformity we must work to certain mathematical formulae, and all the intimate knowledge gained throughout the years will not be of such importance as it was in the past; it will become a more or less routine job. I am certain that any changes brought about can readily be assimilated by these men with years of experience for whom we plead tonight.

  895
  It is not on the question of ability that we bar them from taking these posts, but purely on the question of qualifications. We must pay due respect to the opinion of the Advisory Council which recommended this course to the Secretary of State; but that committee was studying this problem from only one angle, whereas we, in this House, must study it from another angle. We have the duty of seeing that justice is done.
  Paper qualifications can mean a lot or a little. I have paper qualifications from certain institutes, but it is very long since I practised the art in which I qualified, and I could not claim to be a competent man today, yet I could put those qualifications on the table if I were applying for a job. Many men with degrees gained long ago may apply for jobs, having long forgotten what was involved.
  There is a way in which the Secretary of State can put right this seeming wrong. I suggest that what has been done previously in the case of the mining industry can be done here. The certification of managers was required, and a certain course was followed to make sure that the industry would not be robbed of the large pool of men with long experience. In that case a large number of men were involved, against whom the sweeping action of today's Regulations could not have been taken. The colliery managers were not asked to sit for examinations but were deemed, by regulation, to be qualified. I suggest that these Regulations should be taken back and studied again with that possibility in mind, and that these men should be deemed to be qualified to hold the new office if they are appointed by the council.
  Perhaps these assessors could have years of experience written in. I suggest that the assessors should have a minimum of ten years' experience and the deputes five years. If my right hon. Friend could put it in that form he could perhaps ensure that they were deemed to be qualified for a certain period of, say, three years during which they would be required to qualify. In view of the volume of opinion expressed here this evening I think my right hon. Friend should take the Regulations back and reconsider the matter.
  10.35 p.m.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: The case that I want to put is rather embarrassing from my point of view, especially after years of service have been mentioned, because the assessor in Clydebank was a lady. I have to be careful not to say that she performed her job for years and years. She has been doing the job for a long time, although she is still young.
  When the Bill was going through the House I realised that the Secretary of State would have to consider a body which was competent to decide about qualifications. When I saw the Regulations I was spending a great deal of leisure time with a retired farmer who knew country towns that I knew and knew some of those who went to school with me. I noticed that a person would be qualified for one of these posts in Dundee or Glasgow if he were an associate of the Chartered Auctioneers' and Estate Agents' Institute—not necessarily a fellow of that body, but an associate. The elderly farmer spoke of boys whom I had known who had served their articles with small land agents and they did not become fellows of the Institute because, as he said, "They were not very bright, Cyril. I believe that so-and-so, who has been working for ten years for so-and-so, is now a rent collector." Yet, according to this Regulation, if that man were an associate, he would be qualified as an assessor. He may have been in his father's firm for many years and at long last become an associate, but he is not good enough to be an assessor in a large urban area or city.
  I think it a frightful thing that people who have been doing the job for many years, as in the case of the lady in Clydebank, should not be able to apply. Clydebank will now disappear as a valuation area and the County of Dunbarton becomes the valuation area. The assessor for the area is qualified but he will need a couple of assistants. The lady whom I mentioned knows the area but cannot apply. I doubt very much if anyone can be found who is so conversant with the job. I am sure the Secretary of State never envisaged a situation in which a person who had been doing the job would not be permitted to apply as a depute. She is eliminated. It may be difficult

  897
  for that lady to take up another occupation.
  I beg the Joint Under-Secretary to see whether anything can be done to safeguard people such as that body from the effects of the Regulations, which have such wide qualifications as to be shocking. It lets in anyone who may have served his articles in a small estate agent's office or other office—perhaps selling bulls, cows, calves, rams, tups and wethers—if only he becomes an associate.
  Sir A. Gomme-Duncan: What is the difference between a ram and a tup?
  Mr. Bence: I cannot explain that here. I will tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman afterwards.
  I admit that one has to have a body that will provide a basis of qualification. I am in favour of qualifications for people such as engineers, doctors, dentists and school teachers, but the qualifications required by these Regulations are too wide. A man becomes an associate after about ten years, if he is any good at the job, but those qualifications do not entitle him to become a fellow. He may get that by paying five guineas. It is like being a B.A., who gets his MA. not by passing further examinations but by paying perhaps three guineas.
  I ask the Secretary of State to examine this matter again so as to ascertain the position. Why should this position be open to a person who is a fellow or associate, particularly of the Chartered Auctioneers' and Estate Agents' Institute? An associate of that body is not really one of the brightest boys. The lady in Clydebank would be far more able to do that job in Clydebank than an associate of that body. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will look into this point and withdraw that qualification.
  10.44 p.m.
  Mr. C. N. Thornton-Kemsley: Seven hon. Members have spoken so far, and every one has favoured this Prayer. I shall be the exception, because I think that the Prayer is misconceived and that the action which the Government have taken is correct.
  No one has suggested that the qualifications which have been recommended by the Advisory Council and accepted by my right hon. Friend, are not the right
  898
  ones. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, The Chartered Auctioneers' and Estate Agents' Institute and The Land Agents' Society are bodies that qualify members by examination and by practice to do the assessments of valuation for rating purposes.
  Mr. Woodburn: Naturally the hon. Gentleman knows a great deal more about these things than I do, but will he say whether those are the only societies that qualify people for such work? Are there other bodies that can be included?
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: There is one other body, whose qualifications—I want to be quite frank about it—I do not thins are by any means the same. I shall not name the body, because that would not be fair, in view of what I am going to say.
  That body has qualified members by examination for only a very short time. Until quite recently, it was open to anyone to buy a fellowship or an associateship in that other body without qualification by examination. I repeat that the three professional bodies which have been named by my right hon. Friend in the Regulations are, in my view, and, I think, certainly in the view of the Advisory Council, the right bodies.
  The right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), who moved the Prayer, spoke about the paper qualifications. Let us be quite clear about that. All these three professional bodies do not require only paper qualifications, That is to say, if a person passes the examinations but does not practise and satisfy those bodies that he is practising with a reputable firm, he does not get his qualification. It is not only qualification by examination: it is qualification by practice.
  It is all very well for the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) to make fun about the Chartered Auctioneers' and Estate Agents' Institute, and so on, and to talk about associates who have been used to selling tups in the sale ring. Quite clearly, no responsible local authority would appoint anyone who, in addition to holding what are called these paper qualifications, did not hold also qualifications of experience over a long period of years. Obviously, a local authority would require the person whom it

  899
  appointed to this important office, either of assessor or depute assessor, to be qualified, not only by examination, but also by practice.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Sir A. Gomme-Duncan) asked about compensation—
  Mr. Ross: Does the hon. Member not realise that even if those people are as bad as my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) said, they will still have the right to apply? The people who have been doing the job and who are qualified by experience, however, will not be allowed even to apply.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: That is true. They will still have the right to apply, but there is not the least chance that any of them will be appointed unless they have recent practical experience of rating. If I understand Section 4 of the Act correctly, those who are debarred, to whom my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire referred, will not be prevented from claiming compensation.
  It is true that the present assessor for Angus, who has been mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Angus (Captain Duncan), has acted for a very long time with complete acceptance to the county council, and everyone who knows his work will deeply regret that he is no longer qualified to continue with that work. He is, however, within two or three years of retiring age. He will qualify, certainly, under the terms of Section 4 for compensation, and is not too old to accept a post in private practice, in which there is great demand for such experienced people in Scotland, where he would almost certainly get a partnership in a reputable firm and be able not only to enjoy the emoluments of retirement, but to engage in private practice in rating work.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: Does the hon. Member feel that the assessor of whom he is speaking is qualified by his long experience to carry on his job for a further two or three years until he reaches retirement, or is he arguing that because he does not have these paper qualifications he is not so qualified?
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: No, I was not arguing that at all. I think he is perfectly qualified by experience—
  Mr. Thomson: Why not let him do it?
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I will answer that before I sit down.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Pollok (Mr. George) spoke of people being out of jobs. I think that he and all hon. Members who know the position in Scotland would recognise that there is no reason why any of these professionally-qualified men should be out of a job. There is a great demand for them in Scotland, as, indeed, there is in England and Wales. Any man who has experience of valuation for rating could quite easily pick up a job in private practice, and I guarantee that it would be a better paid job than in the local service.
  On the point made by the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) about why we have to have qualifications at all and why we have to exclude the man qualified by long practise, I think that the answer is that if we are to have a fair system vis-à-vis England and Wales, we have to satisfy the Englishmen and the Welshmen that our valuation in Scotland will be fairly done by professional people. The whole question of the equalisation grants and the Gosehen formula and considerations like that are involved.
  In England and Wales the assessments are done, as the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) well knows—
  Mr. Douglas Houghton: I wish to remind the hon. Gentleman that the rating officers in many offices in England do not possess the qualifications set out in these Regulations. They were in fact absorbed into the Inland Revenue Valuation Department from local authorities, because it was known that their qualifications and experience were of high quality and their services were badly needed in the new organisation.
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: I quite agree.
  My final point is that the valuations in England and Wales are done by the valuation officers of the Inland Revenue. There they have a whole organisation to promote uniformity. The chief valuation officer at Somerset House, who is a very good friend of mine, is there with

  901
  the job of co-ordinating the activities of the valuation officers throughout England and Wales.
  In Scotland the position is completely different. Every valuation officer and assessor will be standing on his own. They are employed by the county council or the city council, and they have a very difficult job to do. They are not controlled. They are not answerable to an organisation like that at Somerset House. They are on their own. It is, therefore, the more important that they should be not only highly qualified by examination and by practice—both those things are necessary—but that they should be recognised to be so qualified, if there is to be proper uniformity throughout the United Kingdom.
  Mr. Woodburn: The hon. Gentleman, with his great experience, has given his view that a certain gentleman is qualified. One of my hon. Friends has given his view that a certain lady is qualified. I have no doubt that most of the county councils would express the view that the ladies and gentlemen employed by them are qualified. From his great experience, can the hon. Gentleman tell us of any way by which that can be measured so that it is not just a question of liking a person, or of reputation? Is it to be mere guesswork or is there any way of measuring so that the Secretary of State can have some professional standard which he can apply?
  Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: The whole burden of my argument is that we must have a standard and that the only standard we can have, within reason, is that of examination, qualification and belonging to a recognised professional organisation. That, I think, is the justification for my right hon. Friend's action. Without that standard we throw the whole business overboard. I suggest that my right hon. Friend is absolutely right in what he has done.
  10.54 p.m.
  Mr. James McInnes: While I have a good deal of sympathy with the ten or twelve nonqualified assessors involved, I suggest that if we were to follow some of the suggestions advanced tonight we should find ourselves in infinite difficulties. It has been suggested, for example, that the Secretary of State might make some provision that would enable the assessor such
  902
  as the one at Dundee to apply to be allowed to continue for a period of three or four years. Now such a suggestion as that might not be acceptable in Clydebank or in Kilmarnock, and, therefore, one would create considerable difficulty.
  Apart from that, however, I must also recognise that as a result of the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, twenty assessors will become redundant in Scotland. Most of them are qualified, and so we shall be in the position where the qualified assessor may be denied the opportunity of continuing in local government work. It is all very well to say, "He can go into private practice". That could apply to any official in local government, but most of them desire, strange as it may seem, to continue to work in local government circles.
  I agree that there has been a good deal of sentiment expressed—such as the case of the lady in Clydebank who is not so old as she used to be.
  Mr. Bence: I said that she is just as: young as she used to be.
  Mr. McInnes: I was putting it another way, trying to be more courteous. [Laughter.]
  Do not let us delude ourselves. I thought that my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) was trying to make the case that this lady was indispensable for valuation work in Clydebank. That is going too far. It is no use simply to say "Let the local council give the unqualified people the opportunity of applying, and let the local council decide. One of the best features of the Valuation and Rating Act was that we sought to provide that the assessor would be kept away from contact with local councillors, etc. I think that we are more likely to achieve that objective under the Act and under this Statutory Instrument than by some of the suggestions advanced tonight.
  Quite candidly, while I have a great deal of sympathy for the individuals, I have not heard tonight any concrete suggestion or proposal that would overcome the difficulties which would arise if we persisted with the Motion. I think that we are adequately covered so far as getting the best form of valuation is concerned; that was one of the objectives of the Bill, and one with which I agreed. I think that having the qualified man,

  903
  freed from contacts with local councillors, is the best method of attaining our objective.
  10.59 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. J. Nixon Browne): I am very grateful to the House for the way in which it has approached this important matter. It is an important matter, although few people are affected. The content of these Regulations was not decided upon without the fullest consideration. I think that the House will wish to know the procedure followed and the advice made available to the Secretary of State before the Regulations were made.
  The Sorn Committee recommended that the professional qualifications to be required of a candidate for the post of assessor should be prescribed by Order made by the Secretary of State, and that the qualifications now required by the Board of Inland Revenue should be adopted in Scotland, at any rate in the first instance.
  The Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1956, gave the Secretary of State power to prescribe the qualifications by regulation. In answer to the point made by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), may I say that the Secretary of State has no say in these appointments? In fact it would be incompetent to introduce such a provision into these Regulations. The Secretary of State then asked the Scottish Valuation Advisory Council for its advice on what should be prescribed. The Council was informed of the representations received about the Sorn Committee's recommendations both after the publication of the Report and during the passage of the Valuation and Rating Bill through Parliament. The Council was also informed of the references made to this matter in both Houses during the proceedings on the Bill.
  After examining the information available, the Council recommended that appointments as assessor and depute assessor should be limited to persons qualified by membership of any of the three chartered bodies, that is the bodies listed in the Regulations, which are the only ones incorporated by the Royal Charter. It further recommended that no exceptions should be made for serving
  904
  officers. The Council made clear that this recommendation was subject to reconsideration in the light of the comments on the draft Regulations received from the interested professional organisations and the local authority associations.
  The Secretary of State invited the interested bodies to submit observations on the draft Regulations. All the interested parties replied and their observations were placed before the Council. After full consideration the Council, which out of its fifteen members has eight who are members of valuation authorities, decided to adhere to its original recommendation. That was accepted by the Secretary of State.
  Two things are clear from this very brief history of events. The procedure followed allowed the fullest opportunity for interested organisations to represent their own points of view. Secondly, the Secretary of State, in making the Regulations in their present form, acted on the best advice available, namely, that provided by the Sorn Committee and the Advisory Council, the majority of whose members, as I said, are members of valuation authorities.
  The effect of these Regulations should not be exaggerated. My hon. and Gallant Friend the Member for South Angus (Captain Duncan) was not quite correct. There are at present twelve unqualified assessors and one unqualified depute.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: Before the hon. Gentleman passes from the question of representation, and the opportunity for objection, will he give some idea at what stage the National Local Government Officers' Association made its representations? So far as I am aware, the first representations were received this morning in most cases, which did not give us much chance, and I should like to know when he received the organised representations from them.
  Mr. Browne: It was 17th September, 1956, that the first letter was received by my right hon. Friend.
  I was referring to the effect of the Regulations. There are at present twelve unqualified assessors and one unqualified depute adversely affected by this Regulation. There are likely to be between twenty-three and twenty-six posts of assessor to fill in Scotland and we have twenty-one assessors who qualify under

  905
  the Regulations. I am advised that there is a satisfactory number of suitably qualified men available for the three or four remaining posts.
  Mr. Ross: When the hon. Gentleman says "suitably qualified," does he mean that the man has these paper qualifications which he himself or the Secretary of State says are all right?
  Mr. Browne: I think we can rely on the valuation authorities not to pick a man who simply has paper qualifications.
  Mr. Ross: But when the hon. Gentleman says that there are twenty-one suitably qualified men, he means men who have these qualifications?
  Mr. Browne: Yes, suitably qualified, with the qualifications required. I now turn to the choice of professional qualifications. The right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) asked why only three societies were chosen. I agree that the effect of adopting the Inland Revenue qualifications is to exclude persons who hold certain other professional qualifications which have not so far been acceptable in England and Wales. It is appreciated that the professional bodies concerned will hold strong views on this, but it is essential to have the same qualifications for assessors in Scotland and in England and Wales, otherwise the prospects of securing comparable valuations in both countries will be greatly weakened.
  Mr. Woodburn: That raises a suspicion in my mind. First, are these United Kingdom associations or are they purely English associations? Are Scottish associations like the Chartered Accountants of Scotland, which may not have a similar standing in England but which probably have a superior standing so far as accountancy is concerned, automatically excluded because they are a fully Scottish authority in respect of qualifications?
  Mr. Browne: No, there are no purely Scottish associations that have the necessary qualifications. This matter is of particular interest in relation to the Exchequer equalisation grant, which is at present calculated on an interim basis.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: I am sure we all agree on the need for uniformity, and support the hon. Gentleman's arguments as
  906
  far as they go, but surely he is aware that in the English surveys a great deal more flexibility was allowed for assessors without qualifications than the Minister is allowing in his Regulations.
  Mr. Browne: Yes, I will deal with that point when I come to it.
  We consider it is essential to do our best to start from the same base line in both countries, and thereafter to keep in step. The Secretary of State has power to vary the Regulations, so evidence of improved standards on the part of other professional associations will be examined as a qualification for appointment in both countries as it is offered.
  On the position of serving officers, it is recognised that some serving officers will be disqualified by the Regulations from holding the office of assessor or depute assessor, but not from holding any other office in assessors' departments. That will be after 15th May next year. It will, for example, be possible for an assessor or a depute assessor, now disqualified, to hold a post as chief assistant instead of that of depute assessor. It is not essential to have a depute assessor.
  Mr. Houghton: But that is downgrading.
  Mr. Browne: I appreciate that point of view, but we are making a major change here and must be prepared to face some little difficulties. It is possible for the local valuation authority to have a chief assistant instead of a depute assessor, at similar or even higher emolument. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Sir A. Gomme-Duncan), that Section 4 of the Act of 1956, makes; provision for compensation.
  The Valuation and Rating Act represents really a major operation. It is unfortunate, though inevitable, that some individuals who have given long and valuable service should suffer through no fault of their own. I know that the local authorities concerned will do all they can to ensure that these individuals are treated as favourably as possible and that they suffer the least possible loss of prestige.
  However, there are strong arguments against making any exceptions to the professional qualifications prescribed by the Regulations. The Act provides for new

  907
  appointments to carry out valuations for new areas, which will in most cases except the cities be larger than the old areas, and for valuation on new principles. Under the old system a very high proportion of the work of valuation was automatic, as it was based in a large number of cases on the rent actually paid for the property in question. If the Act is to succeed the new valuations on hypothetical and not actual rents must not only be uniform within the valuation area itself; they must—
  Mr. McInnes: Will the hon. Gentleman explain to us how he makes anything hypothetical uniform?
  Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman knows the answer to that.
  The hypothetical rents must not only be uniform on properties within the valuation area itself; they must be on a level comparable with all other Scottish areas and comparable with England and Wales.
  Mr. T. Fraser: Surely the hon. Gentleman made certain in the Act that he would not get uniformity? If he wanted uniformity he would have accepted an Amendment to the Measure to adopt the English system.
  Mr. Browne: Not necessarily. If we have qualified assessors we shall get it.
  There has to be uniformity not only within the areas but between the areas and with England and Wales. So tenure of an existing appointment does not necessarily prove the ability required to perform this new task.
  Only if we succeed in our aim can we secure fairness in distribution in Scotland of the Scottish equalisation grant between one local authority and another, and only if we achieve our aim can Scotland know she is receiving her fair share of the grant vis-à-vis England and Wales.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Pollok (Mr. George) suggested that assessors who had served for ten years should be allowed to take the job—
  Mr. George: I did not suggest that at all. I suggested that they should be deemed to be qualified and thereby allowed to apply.
  Mr. Browne:—that they should be deemed to be qualified and thereby
  908
  allowed to apply. I would tell my hon. Friend that such qualification would in any case eliminate ten of the twelve assessors who are affected by these Regulations.
  The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) suggested that the concessions which were made to serving officers when the new qualifications for chamberlains and treasurers were introduced under the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947, provide a good precedent for making an exception in the present case. The Government are convinced that this precedent is not a relevant one since there was then no such major change in the technique of the offices in question. Moreover, assessors do not work under the supervision of either a local authority or—like the Inland Revenue valuers in England—of a Government Department. From the point of view of the professional organisations whose diplomas are not recognised under these Regulations it would be unfair to admit persons who had no qualifications at all.
  Mr. George Lawson: Is the hon. Gentleman telling us that in Scotland we are to have a system based on the professional standards and practices of England but, unlike the English system, not paid for through the Inland Revenue but by the ratepayers?
  Mr. Browne: That is perfectly correct. That is what we passed in the Bill. Of course, we had the opportunity of having this done by the Inland Revenue authorities, and of having an equivalent Scottish valuation office, but what has just been said is the reason why we have what has been decided.
  Mr. Lawson: In fact, are we not adopting precisely the English system, with all valuations brought up to English level? If so, then why not have the man graded in, as in England? Why not adopt that system, too?
  Mr. Browne: We have no central control in Scotland, so that we cannot possibly adopt the English system of valuation. Any concession to unqualified serving officers, or to members of associations other than those recognised by the Inland Revenue authorities would weaken the Scottish claim to have comparable valuation with England and

  909
  Wales; and, apart from all other considerations, the Government consider that to be a decisive objection.
  Under the Act, there will be new valuation areas, new principles of valuation and, as a result, there will be new duties and responsibilities for assessors. The Sorn Committee recommended this standard of competence, and the Advisory Council agreed with the Sorn Committee. For their part, the Government can see no valid reason for rejecting this weighty and well considered advice.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: The Joint Under-Secretary has said that in order to make Scottish assessors comparable to English assessors, the Scots are to be given conditions which are not comparable with the English. My hon. Friends do not understand it.
  11.17 p.m.
  Mr. Woodburn: We raised this subject tonight in order to try to elicit some information about the limitation of the qualifications for these assessors. We have had an interesting discussion, and the fact has emerged that no matter how the arrangements are made, some people will be included and some will be excluded. The hon. Member for North Angus (Mr. Thornton-Kemsley) made it clear from his professional knowledge that there is no way, except guesswork.
  910
  that can be followed unless we adopt the standard of professional qualifications which is laid down. The Joint Under-Secretary has told us that that is the advice of the Sorn Committee and of all the professional bodies and people involved; that all the information has led to that conclusion. He also says that other bodies can make recommendations to satisfy the Minister that a person's qualifications are at least equal to the job.
  This Act makes a revolutionary change in Scottish valuation. Some of us understood that the assessors must be independent of the local authorities to a large extent and have a professional standing which made them independent and subject to no pressure. My hon. Friends have not suggested that there was any pressure. We have heard the argument, and if anybody can make a case against it by producing other qualifications which would be acceptable, then the way is still open for them so to do. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Mr. Lawson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, two of us said "No."
  Mr. Speaker: I am sorry, but I did not hear the hon. Member. He should have spoken a little more loudly. I collected the voices, and I did not hear him.

  PRISONERS (LETTERS TO MEMBERS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed. That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Godber.]
  11.20 p.m.
  Mr. Victor Collins: We have just listened to an earnest non-party debate on behalf of a small but worthy minority. I want to introduce another non-party subject on behalf of two larger minorities—the inmates of Her Majesty's prisons and the Members of this House. I want to discuss the question of censorship by prison officers of prisoners' letters to Members of Parliament. I am not raising the general question of censorship and I hope, therefore, that when the Joint Under-Secretary replies he will not indulge in a dissertation of the necessity for a general censorship but will devote himself solely to justifying, if he can, the continuance of the practice whereby an anonymous prison officer decides what a prisoner shall be allowed to tell his Member of Parliament, or whether he shall be allowed to tell him anything at all.
  Until last July it was the practice for prisoners' letters to be censored and copied, but on 26th July I asked the Home Secretary if he would abolish both practices. In his reply he agreed to stop copying the letters, but he refused to abandon censorship. Unfortunately, whilst he was replying there was some noise in the Chamber, and I and some of the reporters in the Gallery thought that his answer had indicated that he was abolishing censorship as well. On 30th July the right hon. and gallant Gentleman wrote to me and said that the Press report had been incorrect. He added:
  "The object of censorship is to prevent the dissemination of objectionable matter and I cannot agree that prisoners should be free, even when writing to M.Ps., to include objectionable matter such as grossly improper language or threats of violence, in their letters."
  He went on to make it clear that the only change he was making was that in future copies of letters would not automatically be taken and that, consequently, letters would be available for posting rather sooner than hitherto.
  I was not content to leave the matter at that, and on Thursday, 25th October,
  912
  I again asked the Home Secretary to end this censorship of prisoners' letters to M.P.s. He again refused, and in reply to a supplementary question said that it was not only objectionable matter and threats that he was concerned about, but that prisoners might give Members of Parliament information about how to commit crimes. There was considerable laughter at that, because it conjured up a vision of prisoners conducting a sort of correspondence course with hon. Members, with the prospect of "doing a job" together when they came out of prison.
  That sounded funny at the time, but personally I cannot regard it as diverting. These men have been convicted of crimes and properly sentenced, and they must conform to prison regulations during their term of duress; there can be no argument about that. But they have not lost all human rights. No man or woman should be deprived of the right of communication with his Member of Parliament. Equally, no Member of Parliament should be debarred arbitrarily from receiving communications from his constituents. If the Joint Under-Secretary, instead of having to reply to this debate, were able to consider the question as an ordinary Member, I feel confident that his sentiments would be the same as mine—as would be the sentiments of all hon. Members.
  During recent years it has been many times alleged that soldiers have been discouraged from writing to M.P.s, or punished for so doing, and it has always been hotly denied by the present Minister of Defence. I, personally, am confident that the position in that respect is now quite satisfactory. But a soldier has many opportunities of ventilating a grievance or an injustice. He can write to the Press, or get his friends and relatives to act for him, but all those opportunities are denied to the prisoner. He cannot write to anyone if the prison officials do not want him to do so. I make no reflection whatever on the honour or integrity of prison governors or prison officers, but it is unanswerable that this system is open to the gravest possible abuse. I shall quote cases in which I am convinced that this power has been abused and used to cloak injustice.
  I want to address two questions to the Joint Under-Secretary. First, can he give a categorical assurance that no prisoners'

  913
  letters to M.P.s are now being copied? I ask that because of the statement of the Home Secretary that they were no longer to be automatically copied. On two recent occasions I have received letters from two different prisoners accompanied by letters from a governor stating that the prisoners had sent similar letters to other M.P.s he had named. How could he know that if no copies had been taken? I think that my feeling in this matter is shared by other hon. Members, and I strongly object to this form of interference with my correspondence.
  The second question which I address to the hon. Gentleman is whether the only reason put forward for continuation of censorship is that it is to protect M.P.s from possible rude words or violent language or information about crimes? I suggest that the first two possibilities are not worthy of consideration. Hon. Members get abuse from all sorts of people. As to the last reason, the only possible meaning is a comic one which I do not propose to pursue.
  Will the Joint Under-Secretary tell me what valid grounds exist for preventing a prisoner from writing to his Member? I ask him not to tell me what is said in the Regulations—that it is to prevent M.P.s acting on behalf of prisoners to suborn witnesses, tamper with evidence or facilitate escapes or that M.P.s might improperly hold the authorities up to contempt. Hon. Members have not and would not do those things, and it is an insult to all of us to suggest that we might do so. Nor do I want to be told that the prison Regulations have not been altered since 1949, when they were confirmed by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede). He has changed his mind about another matter which is far more important than the one which I am discussing tonight. I should like the Joint Under-Secretary to say whether he is himself satisfied that the continuance of this practice is not a breach of the rights and privileges of hon. Members of this House.
  I am well aware that most men in prison are there for a very good reason. I am equally aware that they frequently make complaints which are groundless, and that they often write long, involved letters in which they seek to prove their innocence even of crimes to which they
  914
  have pleaded guilty. I submit, however, that M.P.s know how to deal with such letters. If anyone doubts their discretion or integrity it should not be an unknown prison officer who decides whether an hon. Member of this House is sufficiently discreet or honourable to have an un-censored letter sent him by a prisoner.
  I come to what I regard as the crux of the matter and what in my view is the real reason for continuation of censorship. I emphasise that I am talking only about censorship of letters to Members of Parliament. I submit that the reason for this continuation is the desire of prison officials and the Home Office to have the power to suppress a letter if they think fit, and a very large number of letters are suppressed.
  I say without hesitation that such a power is the power of a police State exercised in a democracy, and in all decency it should be abolished. The prisoner has the right, I know, to lay his grievance before the governor and then to petition the Home Secretary, but the latter process involves very long delay and, so far as I am aware, the result is rarely, if ever, satisfactory to the petitioner. He can then write to his M.P. but only if the governor says "Yes." Beyond question sometimes the governor says "No," and then something very like a vicious form of tyranny can come into operation.
  I would cite one or two examples. On 2nd July last my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mrs. Braddock) told the Home Secretary that she had received complaints about the treatment of prisoners in Walton Prison. She asked the right hon. Gentleman for an inquiry and said that if her request were not granted she would feel obliged to give the names of the prison officers who were alleged to be responsible. A public inquiry was ordered, and I shall therefore make no further reference to it.
  The point I wish to make is that my hon. Friend did not get the full information until a prisoner was released, because those concerned could not get a letter to her. Letters which had been written did not reach her. Prisoners who desired to make statements were warned that if they desired to make a statement which they could not prove they were likely to be brought before the Prison Commissioners on a very serious charge.

  915
  That means that if there were abuses, they had to continue until one of the people concerned was able to come out of prison. That meant months or in some cases years. My hon. Friend had hoped to take part in this debate but owing to the lateness of the hour she has had to leave.
  A few minutes ago my hon. Friend left with me two letters which she had received this morning from the Home Secretary, written about two prisoners at different prisons, and both were concerned with letters that had been suppressed. In one of them the Home Secretary says to my hon. Friend that if it had been shown that a complaint of improper treatment was untrue, it would render the prisoner liable to punishment. The prisoner had said that he complained about a warder's brutality and the beating of a prisoner and about himself being repeatedly threatened by a warder. The governor told him that he did not believe a word of it, and
  "that I was liable to be punished if it was disproved."
  I am not arguing that a man may not be punished for making wanton or unfounded accusations, but to show how the dice are loaded against a man who wants to make a complaint, and that it needs a man of strong courage and persistence to make even a legitimate complaint under conditions like these. That man's letter of complaint to his Member of Parliament was suppressed.
  The other letter from the Home Secretary says that the prisoner's letter was suppressed
  "because it contained complaints of prison treatment which had not been ventilated through one of the appointed channels."
  Why should not a man who is worried or in distress be able to write to his Member of Parliament?
  I would also cite the case of Alfred Hinds which was referred to in an Adjourned debate by the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. R. Bell) on 30th November, last year. The hon. Member had wished to be present tonight, but owing to the lateness of the hour he has had to leave. While on remand in Brixton Prison, and therefore, in accordance with British law, entitled to be regarded as an innocent man, Hinds wrote to his Member of Parliament asking for
  916
  help in a matter which was vitally important to his defence. That letter was suppressed. Hinds petitioned the Home Secretary, who refused to help him and refused to hand the letter to the hon. Member.
  There can be no question whatever that the prison governor in that case suppressed the letter at the request of the police, and that the Home Secretary aided and supported that suppression. It does not matter whether or not Hinds was guilty as charged; he was entitled to all possible aid in his legitimate defence. The suppression of that letter was a Kremlin-like abuse of power and may have led to a grave miscarriage of justice.
  Surely these things cannot be permitted to go on in the twentieth century. Within the last week I have had two letters from two prisoners who have now been able to send me copies of the letters which they originally sent and which were suppressed, and for which suppression I can see no possible reason within the Regulations. One was a most respectful and polite letter to New Scotland Yard asking for an address, which was suppressed by the governor on the ground that it was not the job of the police to act as postmen. Perhaps it is not their job, but the suppression of the letter could not be justified in accordance with the Regulations. Here again, the Home Secretary, when petitioned, said that there were no grounds even for investigating the matter.
  To these men, this represents a brick wall of frustration and despair. I could quote many other examples, particularly from the same prison. I ask the Joint Under-Secretary to consider the possibility that there seems to be some difference in the application of the Regulations as between one governor and another.
  Finally, there is one other case, which I raised in the House, in which a constituent was permitted to write to me after I had raised the general question of censorship. After nineteen months of enduring the conditions imposed on prisoners on the "escape" list and after petitioning the governor and the Home Secretary, he wrote to me. Frankly, I did not believe his story, but I wrote to the Home Secretary and two weeks later tabled a Question. As I came into the House on the day that the Question was

  917
  to be answered—14th June—a letter was handed to me marked "Very urgent." It admitted that all that my constituent had said was true. A little later, when the Home Secretary replied, I was informed that this man and nine others in the same prison had two days earlier been removed from the "escape" list. If the hon. Gentleman thinks that there was no connection between those releases and my Question, I think he would be in a minority of one.
  Prisoners have an inalienable right to send letters to their Members of Parliament, and they should be sent without censorship or alteration. Under no circumstances should they be suppressed. The present system is subject to grave abuse. It is calculated to drive men with a genuine grievance to despair. It is a tyrannous practice which is at the same time a reflection on the honour and dignity of Members of this House. It is an infringement of our rights and privileges, and I ask most earnestly that it should be ended tonight.
  11.37 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. W. F. Deedes): I do not attempt in any way to minimise the importance which the hon. Member for Shoreditch and Fins-bury (Mr. Collins) attaches to correspondence with Members of Parliament. It is a fundamental right and any interference, for whatever reason, is a delicate matter. Clearly, there are principles involved in the right of any prisoner to communicate with a Member of Parliament, and I assure the hon. Member that they have been carefully weighed. They were scrupulously weighed seven or eight years ago by the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), when Home Secretary, and it is fair to remind the hon. Gentleman and the House of what happened then.
  In 1948, the Home Secretary issued instructions whereby prisoners might be allowed, as they were not until then, under certain conditions to write to a Member of Parliament of their choice to complain about their detention or treatment in prison. In July, 1949, the right hon. Gentleman told the House that experience of that concession had shown certain limitations to be necessary in the interests of maintaining disciplne and the proper management of prisoners.
  918
  The hon. Member asked what valid grounds we had for continuing the system. I should like to recall to him the words which were used on that occasion by the right hon. Member for South Shields, the validity of which the passage of time has done little or nothing to change. This is what the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "Hon. Members will appreciate that if a prisoner is to be allowed to use a letter to a Member of Parliament for the purpose of making complaints about his treatment, which he would not be allowed to make in an ordinary letter, and which he has never made to the prison authorities, the result would be that a prisoner could by-pass the appointed channels for the investigation of such complaints, and could make with impunity the most malicious and unfounded allegations against particular officers. This seems to be most undesirable and likely eventually to undermine the authority of the Visiting Committee or Board of Visitors who are the independent check on prison administration for which Parliament has made provision."
  He went on to say that he and the Secretary for Scotland proposed:
  "… to issue instructions that a prisoner shall not be allowed to make complaints about his prison treatment in a letter to a Member unless he has already exhausted his right of making the complaint through the proper channels in one or other of the ways I have mentioned."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th July, 1949; Vol. 467, c. 182.]
  What we have to consider is whether circumstances have so changed since then, or whether experience has brought to light afresh anything which makes a change in the principles enunciated by the right hon. Gentleman now desirable. That is the test of what the hon. Gentleman has said tonight. I know of nothing that has been brought before this House and nothing that the hon. Gentleman has said tonight which would lead me or anyone else to that conclusion.
  Mr. Collins: Is the hon. Gentleman going on to deal with the fact that after the prisoner has submitted the petition to the governor and to the Home Secretary, and has earned his right to write-to his Member, in many instances letters are then suppressed?
  Mr. Deedes: I shall come to that.
  I know how very carefully the right hon. Gentleman whose remarks I have referred to weighed this situation, and how closely he went into the matter before he laid down this practice which has been continued for the last seven

  919
  years. There is no evidence that it has not worked as I think he hoped it would work. It has not been questioned in this House hitherto and no evidence has been brought to support the suggestion that it has been used to suppress complaints by prisoners.
  I should like to explain just how this censorship has worked and what it amounts to. Some remarks which the hon. Gentleman has made tonight have implied that it is quite whimsical and therefore unjust. On the contrary, it is confined to very clear limits. In Prison Standing Orders are listed certain matters—probably the hon. Gentleman has read them, but I must put them on record—which may not be included in any letters written by prisoners. It looks rather a formidable list at first sight—a list of what is held to be "objectionable matter".
  In practice it is interpreted much more liberally in respect of letters to M.P.s than in respect of other letters because it is recognised that the prisoner is writing to a responsible person. I list the objections. Enclosures sent to Members for transmission to the Home Office are no longer considered objectionable. They were once; they are not now. "Threats of violence", "matter intended for insertion in the Press" and "grossly improper language" are three of the six categories. I think they speak for themselves.
  Mr. Collins: I went through all those in my speech. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman did not hear.
  Mr. Deedes: Then there is
  "complaints about the Courts and the police which are deliberately calculated to hold the authorities up to contempt."
  Provided the prisoner does not scandalise the court, he can, of course, include complaints about the court which convicted or sentenced him or dealt with his appeal, and he can make adverse comment about the police, provided this is relevant to his own conviction and sentence. He is not allowed to indulge in general abuse of either.
  I ought to add a word about
  "attempts to stimulate public agitation about matters other than the prisoner's own conviction and sentence."
  That would certainly not be interpreted as precluding attempts to persuade a
  920
  Member of Parliament to raise a matter in the House of Commons.
  That is one half of the censorship. The second is, apart from these categories of objectionable matter, the broad principle that a prisoner is not allowed to make complaints about his prison treatment in a letter to a Member unless he has already exhausted his right of making the complaint through the proper channels. That is a point to which the hon. Gentleman takes particular exception.
  I should add that allegations against prison officers fall into this category, and I think that that is of special importance, because the Secretary of State has a duty to protect prison officers against false and malicious accusations. To make such an allegation is, by statutory rule, an offence against prison discipline. It would be embarrassing to the Secretary of State to have to take disciplinary action on something said by a prisoner in a letter to a Member of Parliament.
  Mr. Collins: Even if it were true?
  Mr. Deedes: "False and malicious accusations" was the expression I used.
  Generally it is held, and I think it is an unexceptionable principle which successive Administrations have upheld, that those responsible for prison administration must have the first opportunity of examining complaints against the administration, and to put them right if they are substantiated. The hon. Gentleman did say that that was open to abuse. But what system is not open to abuse? I say it is false to suggest that this has been, or would be, used for the suppression of letters complaining of prison conditions.
  What then happens when a prisoner writes to his Member of Parliament? It is not as the hon. Gentleman suggested. The letter would be passed by the censoring officer to the governor, and therefore would not be dealt with by an anonymous prison officer, as was suggested. The governor would read it without delay, and if it conformed with the rules, it would be forwarded by the next post. I know that the hon. Gentleman asked a question about a letter over which there was some unaccountable delay, but not because of censorship. If the governor is doubtful, he has to refer the matter to the Prison Commissioners, and such references have

  921
  immediate priority. If they decide that the letter should be sent, it is posted at once. If they decide that it should not be sent, the governor is informed immediately. In every case of refusal, the prisoner is told, and given the chance of rewriting the letter. Rewriting does not mean suppression or editing of the substance of his complaint, unless it is one against prison treatment not yet investigated.
  The rules governing prisoners' correspondence with Members of Parliament are set out in the information folder which every prisoner has in his possession, and therefore the prisoner knows exactly where he stands.
  Until recently it was the practice to copy such letters. The hon. Gentleman asked a question about that. As my right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary acknowledged the other day, this might have led to slight delay and the practice has now stopped. No copies are now taken.
  To sum up, censorship of prisoners' letters has two main features: to prevent objectionable matter. That requires, I think, no justification; secondly, so that
  922
  complaints about prison administration and staff should not be forwarded to hon. Members until they have been investigated. That has been regarded by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Chuter Ede) as indispensable to the proper management of prisons, and nothing has happened in recent years to change the Secretary of State's opinion.
  Mr. Collins: Will the hon. Gentleman deal with the question of suppression? He has said that there is no evidence of any abuse and no evidence that letters are suppressed. I and other hon. Members are often receiving letters from the Home Secretary admitting that letters have been suppressed. I have quoted:5ve examples today.
  Mr. Deedes: We do not mean the same thing by "suppression"; we are using the word in different terms. Letters will not be sent if they do not comply with the Regulations. That is not suppression.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twelve minutes to Twelve o'clock.

MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Bushy Park
  Bushy Park
BRITISH ARMY
  Reservists
  Reservists
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Penrhos Airfield (Painting Contract)
  Penrhos Airfield (Painting Contract)
HOUSING
  Local Authority Building (Loan Costs)
  Local Authority Building (Loan Costs)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock. The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Lord Braintree—Took the Oath.

TRADE WITH CHINA
2.36 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether—seeing that Richard Fràres and Renault of France are carrying out contracts for the sale to China of 60 h.p. caterpillar tractors and bulldozers, as well as 30 h.p. wheel tractors, to a total value of approximately £900,000, and that deliveries of West German heavy trucks and tractors to China are taking place at an increasing rate—British industrialists are on an equal footing with their Continental and other competitors in the matter of the export, under the exceptions procedure, of engineering goods to China; and whether—bearing in mind (1) the statement of a member of Her Majesty's Government in this House on 28th April, 1953, that "it would be reasonable to say that the restriction upon strategic goods which was put upon China so long as the warlike activities were pursued in Korea cannot possibly be extended to any general overall peace plan stretching far and away beyond Korea", and (2) that so long as the embargo continues China is driven more and more to the Soviet bloc for the capital goods she requires for her industrial plans to the disadvantage of British traders—Her Majesty's Government will initiate steps having in view the rescinding of the 1951 U.N.O. resolution and the ending of the China embargo.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF READING): My Lords, all applications to export engineering goods to China under the exceptions procedure are examined on their merits, and I can assure the noble Viscount that British industrialists are in general under no disadvantage by comparison with their competitors in other member countries of the Consultative Group. As regards the second part of the question, it is surely very doubtful whether this is the moment to take steps to rescind the United Nations resolution and to end the China embargo. As I told the noble Viscount on December 6, 1955, we must bear in mind that the resolution of the United Nations was not confined to the end of hostilities in Korea. But, as the noble Viscount will be aware, the question of the China Trade Controls is under constant review, and in the meantime Her Majesty's Government will continue to make appropriate use of the exceptions procedure in relation to trade with China.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Marquess for his Answer. May I ask whether he is aware that the present end-user licensing system leads to many uncertainties and disadvantages for British traders who are attempting to secure orders from China? Is the noble Marquess further aware that it is urgently necessary that British engineering markets should he made less incalculable for buyers of British goods, particularly in view of the enormous requirements under China's second five-year industrialisation plan?
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, I do not know that I can add anything useful to what I said in my original answer. I do not accept that British firms are under any unusual disability by reason of being British in this matter. As regards the other part of the noble Viscount's supplementary question, I, of course, realise that there may be a market in China (I am never quite sure that it is as extensive as some people seem to think) but at the same time there are other factors which, certainly at the present moment, have to be taken in consideration.

THE FOURTEEN-DAY RULE
2.39 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why a broadcaster on B.B.C. Television on October 19 was prohibited from commenting upon the Copyright Bill which was at the time before another place,․the reason given being "the fourteen day rule"—,but was allowed in the same broadcast to discuss the laws pertaining to divorce, a subject which was to be debated in the House of Lords on October 24, on a Motion tabled by the Lord Silkin.]
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, my right honourable friend, the Postmaster General, has investigated this matter, and although the Rule was broken, he is quite satisfied that the breach was inadvertent.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his very frank reply, may I ask him whether be is aware that the directive of the Postmaster General, in accordance with Clause 15 (4) of the Corporation's licence, states:
"that the Corporation shall not, on any issue, arrange discussions or ex-parte statements which are to he broadcast during a period of a fortnight before the issue is debated in either House or while it is being so debated".
Might I ask further whether the noble Lord is aware that this places a very strong veto in the hands of your Lordships' House, as any noble Lord can place on the Order Paper a Motion which will veto discussion over sound and television of a wide range of subjects? And would the noble Lord agree with me that if the fourteen-day Rule is a good rule it should be enforced, and if it is a silly and a had Rule it should be rescinded or amended? Would the noble Lord also be good enough to tell your Lordships into which category he thinks the fourteen-day Rule would naturally fall?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am naturally aware of the terms of the directive from my right honourable friend to the B.B.C., which is in similar terms, of course, to that which went to the I.T.A. So far as the veto which the noble Lord mentioned is concerned. I suppose it can
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be argued that that veto would exist hut, for my part, I cannot conceive that it would be in any way consistent with the dignity and practice of your Lordships' House to utilise it in any such manner. So far as the question of whether the fourteen-day Rule is either good or had is concerned, frankly I do not think it is for me to be led by the blandishments of the noble Lord into expressing a personal opinion. What I do say, however is this. Rather naturally, since it is in force it is thought to be of use and I certainly agree with the noble Lord that if the Rule is in force it should be enforced. On the particular occasion to which the noble Lord refers it was intended to be enforced.
I do not wish to delay your Lordships by lengthy reference to the facts of the actual broadcast which the noble Lord has in mind, but they were, shall I say, very far from ordinary, and it lot of peculiar things happened, including the burning of a Bill. I am bound to say that things got a little out of control, and this occurrence, which was in no way intended at the time, took place. I have already admitted that there was a slight error in that further action whatever it could have been, was not taken to prevent this breach but it was quite inadvertent and clone in the heat of the circumstances. I think that "heat" is the correct word.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, arising out of the noble Lord's answer, could he state whether the Party political broadcasts regarding the Middle East situation do not come under the fourteen-day rule?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I think that that is a question which requires some careful thought. In the normal way. I think one would have said that they did. However, it is a question of some consideration, and possibly of some argument, whether the very serious circumstances obtaining at the time would have justified the broadcasts or not. In any case, there was little time for such consideration.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, while I agree completely with the noble Lord about the sense of propriety which always pervades discussion in your Lordships' House, may I ask him whether he does not think that it would he far better not to amend that sense of propriety, but to amend the fourteen-day rule?

NURSES BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to nurses and assistant nurses for the sick; and to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a, —(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

NURSES AGENCIES BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to agencies for the supply of nurses; and to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

CLYDE NAVIGATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read la, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936), deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
OBAN BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

DEPUTY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Lord Teynham, the Lord Merthyr, the Lord Blackford, the Lord O'Hagan, the Lord Terrington, the Lord Crook, the Lord Chorley, the Earl of Buckinghamshire and the Lord Archibald be appointed the panel of Lords to act as Deputy Chairmen of Committees
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for this Session. (The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Committee be appointed to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill; and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Reading.

M. Salisbury.

M. Willingdon.

E. Fortescue.

E. Jowitt.

E. Listowel.

E. Swinton.

V. Hall.

V. Samuel.

L. Nathan.

L. Ogmore.

L. Rea.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name in regard to this Committee.
Moved, That a Standing Orders Committee be appointed, and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury.

M. Willingdon.

E. Fortescue.

E. Jowitt.

E. Listowel.

L. Ammon.

L. Amulree.

L. Faringdon.

L. Merthyr.

L. Milne.

L. Rea.

L. Teynham.

L. Tweedsmuir.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SPECIAL ORDERS COMMITTEE
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name in regard co this Committee.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider all Special Orders of the present Session; and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, he named of the Committee:

M. Willingdon.

E. Buckinghamshire.

E. Hardwicke.

E. Iveagh.

E. Listowel.

L. Ammon.

L. Belstead.

L. Blackford.

L. Campion.

L. Faringdon.

L. Hindlip.

L. Hore-Belisha.

L. Kershaw.

L. Merthyr.

L. Meston.

L. O'Hagan.

L. Rochdale.

L. Strabolgi.

L. Torrington.

L. Teynham.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question. Motion agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES COMMITTEE
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper, in regard to this Committee.
Moved, That a Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices be appointed and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D. Norfolk.

D. Wellington.

M. Cholmondeley.

M. Salisbury.

M. Willingdon.

E. Attlee.

E. Crawford.

E. Dartmouth.

E. De La Warr.

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E. Fortescue.

E. Halifax.

E. Home.

E. Ilchester.

E. Iveagh.

E. Jowitt.

E. Limerick.

E. Listowel.

E. Lucan.

E. Munster.

E. Onslow.

E. Scarbrough.

E. Selkirk.

E. Swinton.

V. Alexander of Hillsborough.

V. Bridgeman.

V. Hall.

V. Mersey.

V. Samuel.

V. Simonds.

V. Thurso.

L. Ammon.

L. Amulree.

L. Balfour of Burleigh.

L. Belstead.

L. Burden.

L. Chorley.

L. Hatherton.

L. Henderson.

L. Killearn.

L. Lucas of Chilworth.

L. Mancroft.

L. Merthyr.

L. Nathan.

L. O'Hagan.

L. Pakenham.

L. Pethick-Lawrence.

L. Rea.

L. Saltoun.

L. Sherwood.

L. Terrington.

L. Teynham.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed
Leave given to the Committee to report from time to time.

PERSONAL BILLS COMMITTEE
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITEES: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion on the Order Paper standing in my name in regard to the Personal Bills Committee.
Moved, That the Personal Bills Committee be appointed to which all Petitions for Personal Bills, presented during the present Session, which have been certified as such under the provisions of

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Standing Order 3 relating to Private Bills, shall stand referred; and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees be named of the Committee:

E. Macclesfield.

V. Simonds.

L. Cohen.

L. Kershaw.

L. Merthyr.

L. Morton of Henryton.

— (The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name in regard to this last Committee.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider any proposals for alterations in the procedure of this House which may arise from time to time, and whether the Standing Orders do or do not require to be altered to effect such alterations: and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees be named of the Select Committee:

M. Salisbury.

E. Fortescue.

E. Home.

E. Lucan.

E. Onslow.

V. Alexander of Hillsborough.

V. Bridgeman.

V. Samuel.

V. Stansgate.

L. Amulree.

L. Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.

L. Rea.

L. Saltoun.

L. Silkin.

—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

FREIGHT MOVEMENT AND HANDLING
2.48 p.m.
LORD FORBES LORD FORBES rose to draw attention to the problems of moving freight in this country with special reference to the British Productivity Council's Review on Freight Handling; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords. I rise to draw your Lordships' attention to the problem of moving freight in this country and to the British Productivity Council's excellent review on freight handling. Let me at the outset apologise for having the audacity as a very junior Back-Bencher to introduce a Motion in your Lordships' House. I should also make it clear that I shall not be referring to the recent White Paper on the modernisation plans for the railways, as I understand that this is to be the subject of another debate. The problem of moving freight in this country is one which is daily getting more serious, and for the well-being of the nation it must be settled with the least possible delay, because any further hindrance is likely to increase the evils tenfold. However, it would not be right for me only to draw your Lordships' attention to some of the many problems without at the same time attempting, with the greatest humility, to offer a few solutions to at least some of them.
If we accept the fact that transport of freight is the very lifeblood of the modern nation, whether in peace or in war it is essential that thought should be given to the strategic plan, as well as to peace-time requirements. It is of paramount importance that we should be able to move raw materials speedily to our centres of industry, and then to move the finished products to our customers, or to the ports for export, because practically everything produced in this country has to be moved. In my opinion, a good freight system should be nothing less than a conveyor belt for industry, so that neither the factory nor the consumer, be he at home or abroad, is held up for want of materials.
There are three main principles in moving freight: speed, regularity and reliability. The present system is far too slow and is acting as a dangerous brake on our national productivity. It is also true that one of the reasons why some of our goods are in danger of being

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priced out of the export markets is the high cost of freight, due to our inadequate freight system. In addition, the slowness of moving exports to our ports has, I believe, most regrettably, influenced some countries against placing orders with us. We must not forget that merchandise in transit represents capital which, to all intents and purposes, is frozen and unproductive. Moreover, the slower the movement of our materials and finished products, the larger the stocks that must be kept by industry and by the consumer to cushion any possible delay in delivery of goods.
It is distressing, to say the least, to find that to-day transport of freight represents a high proportion of producers' costs. An example of this is provided by the firm of Unilever, who have stated that to produce one ton of washing powder costs the equivalent of thirteen man-hours, while to move that ton of washing powder 200 miles to a retailer costs the equivalent of nineteen man-hours. In other words. in that case transport costs exceed production costs by over 50 per cent. This perhaps: is not surprising when ore finds, by reference to the British Transport Commission's Report for 1954. that goods moving by rail from one terminal to another travel at an overall average speed of just under 4 m.p.h.; and if shunting and marshalling at the terminals is taken into consideration, this speed is reduced to just under 3 m.p.h. After studious thought and boundless ingenuity, the producer may be able to lower his costs of production, and one of the most notable contributions of recent years has been the mechanising of freight handling within the factories. But there has been no comparable revolution in external transport, with the result that the consumer is always robbed, by increasing freight charges, of any reduction in production costs.
Unfortunately, the rising cost of products, due to mounting freight charger>, affects no only the home market but also the export market. It is perhaps pertinent to ask for how long purchasers abroad will be prepared to go on paying for our goods at prices that are partly inflated through our poor transport system. To-day we are in the happy position of having several alternative methods of moving freight—namely, by land, air, sea or inland waterway. It is up to us to
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make use of these diverse methods. However, we must ensure that no one form of transport becomes dominant over any other potentially competitive form. Each one should help to give us that great flexibility which is necessary when moving freight. I do not think it is overstating the case to say that to-day our system for moving freight by rail is little more than a supplement to our crazy network of roads. There is no doubt that a large amount of capital will in future have to he expended to bring our transport system up to date. For this Her Majesty's Government must consider capital requirements for transport as a whole and not separately, so that capital can be expended to the best advantage.
First of all, however our fundamental transport policy must be resolved; and for this purpose I would recommend that the Government should set up a Commission to investigate and advise on the movement of freight. The last Royal Commission set up was, I believe, in 1928. That Commission recommended, among other things, that no further tramways should be built and that trams should gradually disappear. One trembles to think what the chaos in air city streets would be like to-day if this commonsense recommendation had not been carried out. Unfortunately, our railways are still losing traffic to our treacherous and overcrowded roads.
Surely, it is crystal clear what a person who sends his goods by rail is paying for. He is paying for the time goods occupy the wagons and not for the energy expended in moving the goods. It is the wagon waiting idle in the marshalling yards and in the sidings that is costing the money. It is interesting to find sated in the British Transport Review of December, 1954, that there arc at least £30 million worth of empty wagons sitting idle in marshalling yards and sidings on any one clay. I believe that there have been some improvements since then, but there are still a great many idle wagons sitting in marshalling yards. This fact illustrates only too clearly that the present turn-round of wagons is far too slow. In this connection, it is perhaps not surprising to find that, on an average, each clanking railway wagon does only one journey every nine and a half days. Even if the turn-round could be speeded up a little, so that a wagon did a journey every nine

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days, representing a mere half day's improvement, it has been estimated that there would be a saving in wagons alone of about 59,000. Fifty-nine thousand wagons represents about £28 million; and if the life of a wagon is taken at ten years, that would mean a saving to the British Transport Commission of about £21 million a year—quite an appreciable saving for apparently so small an improvement.
Before freight can be moved as on a conveyor belt, the turn-round of wagons must be progressively improved. For this, freight trains must run like express trains; that is, on the same lines as passenger services, and they must run to schedule. To achieve this power brakes must be fitted. Here I must welcome not only the decision of the British Transport Commission to fit vacuum brakes, but also the statement of Sir Brian Robertson that the fitting of these brakes is to be treated as an emergency operation. That must be so, because increased speed can come only when all—and "all" is the operative word—wagons have been fitted with power brakes. You may have a number of "Flying Scotsmen" on the lines, but one Stephenson's "Rocket" can hold up a great many "Flying Scotsmen". As soon as all wagons are fitted with power brakes it is essential that some small marshalling yards and sidings should be scrapped, so that as few hiding places as possible remain for ramshackle old wagons. We should then find, I am certain, that once more the number of wagons required could be still further reduced, because a smaller number of wagons can be put to greater use by running trains at higher densities and by having a better turn-round of wagons.
Then we must strike a balance between moving freight by rail and by road. Unfortunately, the problem for us is far more difficult than for some countries, such as the United States of America, since we in this country cannot even contemplate a vast system of motorways, owing to the fact that we have a high density of population and every inch of arable ground must, wherever possible, be kept for agriculture. In order to alleviate our already overcrowded roads, the steel rails must form the arteries for moving long-distance and heavy freight.
The roads must then be the veins feeding these arteries and linking up places not already served by the arteries.
Probably the most flexible systems we have to-day for moving freight are the container and pallet systems. I maintain that the container system is being grossly abused. In my opinion, containers should go only from one main-line station to another, and not on to branch-line stations, as at present, because the railway authorities have to ensure a quick turn-round of wagons. This can be done only if the flat wagon transporting the container has its load transferred to road wheels at the earliest possible opportunity on arrival at the main line station. The present procedure is, I think, a classic example of making what should be a really flexible system into one which is as rigid as a poker. The main drawback to the container system is, of course, the mechanical equipment necessary for loading and unloading the containers. This is another reason why containers should not go on to branch line stations, as it would mean spending money on equipping these small stations to deal with the containers.
Whilst in the United States of America this summer, I had the opportunity of investigating the American system of moving freight by rail, known as "piggyback". This system entails moving trailers forming part of articulated lorries on flat railway wagons. The trailers are left at the marshalling yards by haulage firms for loading on to "piggy-back" trains, which normally consist of about seventy-eight wagons, and may be loaded in six bays, each bay having thirteen wagons. The trailer is backed on to the flat wagon by a tractor belonging to the railway company, and the whole operation of loading and securing takes six men about three minutes for each wagon. A new and absolutely revolutionary flat railway wagon has, however, just been produced in the United States and is just going into operation. This flat railway wagon has two lines on it, and the trailers have small wheels attached to their axles so that the trailers can be easily pushed on to the flat wagons. In this case, securing and loading is done by two men, and it takes only one and a half minutes for each wagon.
The most interesting feature of this development is that the whole load is

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very much lower, as the trailer is resting on its axles instead of on its road wheels—the road wheels actually overhang the wagon. This is a tremendous advantage, from our point of view, because, up to now, maximum loading height has been the great difficulty about introducing any system like "piggy-back". Another advantage is that the centre of gravity of the load is very much lower, so there is more travel at greater speeds but with the same safety. The present procedure in the United States is to run two "piggyback" trains between terminals each night, the first train taking perishable goods. The great feature of "piggyback" in the United States is that it is recapturing some of the freight that the railways have been losing to the roads. In fact, the Baltimore-Ohio railway system has stated that since the introduction of "piggy-back" they have increased the volume of freight carried by them by over 300 per cent. This means that by this ingenious method lorries on wheels do the door-to-door collection and delivery of goods for which the lorry is ideally suited. In addition, I consider that the lorry should carry wireless equipment, so that it can he in radio communication with its depot, so cutting out many unnecessary journeys.
If "piggy-hack" could be adapted for use here, it would mean that about fifty road vehicles could he moved speedily and safely by rail with one motive power instead of having fifty motive powers all using a form of petrol or oil which, I would remind your Lordships, has to be imported, as does the rubber for the tyres. Other advantages of this system are that drivers need never leave their home centres, so that lodging difficulties do not arise; the radius of the motor vehicle is increased: there is greater safety, and also less strain on the drivers; checking is cut to a minimum; covering and uncovering is eliminated, while pilfering is greatly reduced. The greatest effect here of a "piggy-back" system would be on long-distance haulage. as it would enable new centres to be brought within next-morning delivery radius of each other. At present the maximum distance for road haulage is about 200 miles, but with the introduction of a combination of road and rail it would be possible to increase this distance to at least 400 miles. That means that London would be brought within next-morning delivery radius of
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such places as Glasgow and Edinburgh. What a tremendous advantage that would be! Amongst other things, it would mean that any noble Lord in -London who could not stomach a mature haggis for breakfast could have a fresh haggis.
Another advantage of this method, is that the railways could carry out nightly trunk hauls over long distances, thus relieving the main roads of at least a proportion of the traffic they now carry. By speeding up the movement of goods between centres, it should be possible for firms to enter into contracts with the Transport Commission for a specified number of wagons between centres each day. This would be a great advantage not only to the firms but also to the Transport Commission. I believe that to-day there are about eighty lorry loads of merchandise passing between Manchester and London each day. How much better it would be if at least a proportion of this regular traffic could be moved by rail, instead of by road!
In planning the movement of freight, the turn-round of wagons is vital. The railway authorities must ensure the quick turn-round of wagons and they must also ensure that the right wagon is at the right place at the right time. In the case of "piggy-back", a quick turn-round of wagons should be easy, for there should always be a motive power waiting at the main line station to take away the container or the trailer. It is also important that there should he immediate unloading of ordinary wagons, and for this the necessary mechanical handling equipment must be available. On no account must wagons he used by firms as storage accommodation. To stop this practice, monetary penalties, both painful and severe, must be imposed. To-day, I believe the present charge for not releasing a wagon after the first twenty-four hours is in the region of 6s. That, I think, is quite unrealistic, as it is almost cheap storage for those firms with inadequate storage accommodation. No wonder they make use of it !
Another so far unsolved problem is that of the careful handling of goods during shunting operations. To-day, many goods are being sent by road instead of by rail, just because of the high percentage of damage done to goods in transit by rail. One firm of bicycle manufacturers in the Midlands have stated that they have changed over to

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using road transport exclusively, because last year damage and pilferage to their goods amounted to £950 17s. 0d. The most likely line of development here is, I think, something similar to that used by the Southern Railway system in the United States of America. There, shunting is carried out by means of a gradient and electronics. First, a radar device evaluates the rollability of the wagon, taking into consideration wind, speed, size and weight; then an electronic computer automatically regulates the braking of the wagon and so ensures smooth coupling. By this method not only is shunting carried out without jerks, but also shunting can be carried out in any weather, including fog. Whatever method the British Transport Commission decide to adopt here, it is essential that shunting should be carried out smoothly, just as a dry fly fisherman drops his fly on to a trout stream. To sum up the position regarding moving freight by rail, I consider that, if the railways are to regain their competitive power the remedy, rather than to increase the freight charges, is, first and foremost, to put emphasis on new techniques and then see what new equipment will be required to put these techniques into practice.
Now I want to deal with some of the problems involved in moving freight by road. The great characteristic of road transport is that it gives facilities for moving goods from door to door with reasonable speed and with the minimum of handling. Unfortunately. however the characteristic of "reasonable speed" is fast disappearing, owing to our inadequate roads. Already in this country the density of traffic on our few Roman and many romantic roads is far higher than in any other country. What does this mean? It means one thing for certain, and that is that the congestion on our roads to-day is a mere fleabite compared with what it will be in seven years' time. since it has been estimated that if the number of vehicles coming on to the roads increases as at present. there will be double the number on the roads in 1963 compared with the number to-day.
When building new roads and improving others we must ensure that we do not merely encourage the pleasure motorist to conic out on to our roads and once more block our freight lifelines. If
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thought is not given to this matter the whole object of road improvement for freight may be defeated as has happened in some instances in the United States of America. The first essential is that the railways must win back freight from the roads in the form of whole and awkward loads. Next, if we are to continue to run traffic at such high density, we must get an even flow of traffic. This can be done only by cutting out all bottlenecks and black spots and then by constructing urban motorways. The construction of urban motorways would achieve far more than the construction of miles and miles of inter-city motorways. All this should lead to a reduction in the cost of transporting freight owing to less fuel being used. It is no use building fast trunk roads on which lorries can travel at 20 m.p.h. or more if the route is studded with bottlenecks so that drivers have to reduce speed to 5 m.p.h. or less, for this merely brings down the overall average out of all proportion.
Another problem is how to keep the amount of fixed capital down to a minimum. This, I maintain, can best be done by the development of more articulated lorries. The great advantage of the articulated lorry is that one motive power can be used for several trailers. It is common to find one motive power to three trailers, the practice being to have one trailer being loaded, another being unloaded and the third on the road. The added advantage of this is that the drivers can usually sleep at home, as one driver takes a load out to a half-way point and there he meets a driver coming from the other direction, they change over trailers and each returns to his home depot. Another matter which requires urgent attention is the development of moving more goods such as sugar, milk and animal feeding-stuffs in bulk transport, because bulk transport reduces transport costs very considerably. Whatever happens, do not let us forget that in making our road plan it should be part and parcel of a larger and far more comprehensive plan for moving freight.
I come now to freight movement at the ports. Here again there are many vexing problems, the main one being the slowness of loading or unloading ships. This is largely due to the lack of planning in the past. Traders have been allowed

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to establish themselves too close to the ships' anchorage, with the result that extensive movement in the docks is greatly restricted and the development of full mechanisation has been greatly hampered. The result is that facilities for loading anti unloading ships are at present totally inadequate. This lack of mechanisation, coupled with the uneven delivery of the cargo by road, has done much to cause the unmanageable congestion at our docks and has led to the serious detention of road vehicles. Our docks were designed to be worked mainly by rail, hit to-day one finds that the position has been almost reversed. Probably the most glaring example is Tilbury where, before the war, about 20 per cent. of the cargo arrived by road. To-day, about 60 per cent. of the cargo arrives by road. So a possible solution to the dock problem might be once more to work the docks mainly by rail instead of by read. This would mean that palletisation, which has already increased the speed of loading ships by about 20 per cent., could he used to cut out a lot of double handling between rail and ship.
Next I turn to the movement of freight by inland waterway and by air—might call the Cinderellas of our freight systems; the one old and haggard the other young and undeveloped. I am glad to say that the present modernisation schemes for some of our canals at least show the importance attached to the steady movement of goods by canal. It would indeed be a great pity if our old and picturesque canals were ever to be relegated to the sole use of the bamboo and float fishermen; they are far too valuable for that. Some, at least, of our canals must he revived so as to carry freight at relatively low charges—non-perishable goods not required within a short period of time. Where factories are not sited adjacent to canals, the transport of freight by barge would he far more attractive if the present double handling could be cut out and instead loads could he transferred from road to canal by means of inter-changeable containers.
Of course, where speedy delivery is important there is obviously much scope for the aeroplane. However, to-day air freight transport is largely hampered by the complete lack of any special air freight system in this country. Having put this matter right, we must then
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evolve a speedy method of moving goods from factory to aeroplane and from aeroplane to the consumer—in other words, it is another question of transferring goods, this time from road to aeroplane and vice versa.
Now about the future. Surely this is not a question of "When can we afford to modernise our freight systems?" but rather of, "How long can we afford our present neglect?" It must be admitted that some of the modernisation plans especially those for the railways, are at least attempts to put right the neglect of many years. But surely it is opportune to ask ourselves whether we are satisfied that the modernisation schemes are on the right lines. For instance, will the changeover from steam to diesel electric on our railways—a revolution in itself—be revolutionised once more by the introduction of atomic power?
In planning the future movement of freight, we must have close liaison with other countries to ensure that we have at least as good a freight system as that of any other country. But this is not enough. By our own research and foresight we must evolve a freight system so flexible that not only is it the best in the world but, by careful development, it will remain the best in the world. As I have already indicated, there are many defects in our techniques for moving freight, and I consider it imperative, if we are to improve our freight system, that a Royal Commission should be set up to investigate this complex problem and make recommendations for the future. In advising Her Majesty's Government to take this course. I must add one recommendation—namely, that speed in coming to a reasoned conclusion is absolutely vital, as any further delay in putting a plan into operation may land us in the same ditch that we have been in before: that of too hasty action or utter collapse.
Finally, my Lords, I would say this. I have talked mainly about machines, but do not let us forget that behind most of these machines are men and women living bodies, operating them. Without their co-operation we car not advance. With new machines coming forward I am confident that not only will there be increased vigour amongst those responsible for planning the movement of freight, but also the morale of the operators will go

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up out of all proportion; because although in this mechanical age man may like to look at museum pieces of machinery, there is not the slightest shadow of doubt that he likes to work, and works best, with new machines.
It has been stated, I believe, that a great future lies in front of this nation if we work hard. I venture to suggest that the problem goes deeper than that. First and foremost, all of us, nobody excepted, must get back that absolutely vital sense of responsibility and pride in service which in the past has carried us over so many almost insurmountable obstacles and for which we were admired throughout the world. Without this sense of responsibility and pride in service this nation must surely sink to its lowest depth; but with it everything, including freight, should flow smoothly towards prosperity. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.28 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, at the opening of his most agreeable speech the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, apologised that a very junior Back-Bencher should dare to address your Lordships on such an important subject. If, over these past few years, I have sensed the atmosphere in your Lordships' House aright, we should sometimes prefer Back-Benchers, on both sides of your Lordships' House, to monopolise more time, instead of having it monopolised by some of those on the Front Benches, on both sides of the House, upon whom has devolved the major responsibility in discussing these great problems.
The noble Lord has to-day covered such a wide field that I am not going to attempt to follow him. I find myself at some disadvantage because, in the immediate future, your Lordships' House will be asked to debate the White Paper which the Government have produced, upon the future financial arrangements appertaining to British Railways. During the course of a speech that I made a week ago, I tried to inveigle Her Majesty's Government into putting before the House a Motion to discuss this matter but they seemed a little shy. The "usual channels" are now at work, trying to arrange a date in the immediate future for Her Majesty's Opposition to put down a Motion, and I do not want to say
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much this afternoon that will be better said in a full-scale debate on the various serious proposals which Her Majesty's Government are making and which will have a most serious effect upon ail those things on which the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, has spoken.
I think that at the outset of this debate we had better get to the heart of the problem. The noble Lord spoke about a Royal Commission and the thought that went through my head was, "God forbid!" We have been talking about transport for so many years that I, now getting to the age when my memory is not as good as it was, have forgotten when we started. Let us come only to postwar times. In 1947 we passed an Act that had for its objective the very thing that the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, now wants—the complete integration of transport. We then had the Act of 1953, when the pendulum swung the other way which threw integration overboard and gave unrestrained competition, with "Every man for himself, and the Devil take the hindmost!" Then in 1956 we had another Act of Parliament more or less dictated by common sense, which tried to find a balance between the two; and only recently in your Lordships' House we gave consent to a measure which at least sought to stabilise the pendulum somewhere between the two.
Where do we now find ourselves? I find myself largely in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Forbes—more in agreement with him than he thinks. In this modern world we cannot have this fierce and unbridled competition. It is competition between—what? Competition has really hardly started, because the 1953 Act has only just started to work and what is happening? Over the last six months we have had a price-cutting war between the two factions of road transport which must have very grave repercussions upon rail transport. If the noble Lord wishes me to speak the truth in this matter and with what the noble Lord has called the "conveyor lines of industry" being so short, I cannot but see that the door-to-door conveyance of freight will prevail. That means a very large extension of road transport. One has only to look at the industrial fit-up of this country with a little knowledge to see that.
I see that the noble Lord. Lord Bennett of Edgbaston, is sitting opposite. He

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knows as much about the motor industry as I do. Take the motor industry (one of our greatest industries) as an example. There is not a motor vehicle made in this country that is manufactured at the factory whose name it bears; sixty other factories contribute to that one factory in building a motor vehicle. The conveyor lines run from sixty, seventy or eighty factories, short hauls, door-to-door conveyance. The Motion of the noble Lord mentions freight handling, yet the truth is that the less freight is handled, the cheaper the goods are. Commerce and industry to-day demand door-to-door conveyance, for all the reasons so eloquently put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Forbes. Approximately 80 per cent. of the freight of this country is at present conveyed by road, and if one took a radius of forty miles from the consignment of goods, I would say the figure is nearer 100 per cent. Where, then, in what direction, are 'we going? We cannot afford the loading and unloading; we cannot afford the cost of packaging.
The noble Lord, Lord Forbes, has spoken to-day of palletisation, but that has been going on in industry for years. Special bodies are built on motor vehicles to carry particular goods, to avoid the cost of packaging and risk of pilfering, and to avoid all those things which, as the noble Lord has rightly pointed out, are time—and money—wasting. My fear is that at some future date (and here I find myself encroaching on the debate on which I said I would not encroach) we may have some Government which will try to liquidate a £450 million debt incurred by the railways by artificially curbing the most economic form of transport in this country for that is so easily clone.
We have to and out what is the proper function of rail transport and road transport. It is quite obvious that rail transport is by far the most economical form of transport to carry the minerals of this country. Without question, road transport is the most economical form of transport to carry goods short distances, from factory to retail shop or from one factory to another. We cannot all afford to have railway sidings. There is somewhere an area where both forms of transport, road and rail, impinge, but at present the idea seems to be to have fierce competition to find the level. As I have said, nearly 80 per cent. of the freight of this country is carried by road.
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An interesting factor, which gives the lie to quite a lot of politically-inspired opinion, is that we have to-day an increasing number of those in trade and industry who wish to carry freight in their own vehicles. "C" licences are still growing. It cannot be said that that is because of the inefficiency of British Road Services, to whom I would pay a very high tribute. I think they have come through the transport war of the last few years with very great credit. Look, my Lords, at what they had to do. First, they had to acquire 40,000 vehicles in one year or so. Then they had to dispose of 30,000 vehicles a couple of years after. And through it all they have built up a service to industry in response to industry's insistence on such a service and its maintenance. That forced the Government to bring in a measure suspending the disposal of the road haulage vehicles. Why did they do it? It was because of the men who were concerned with industrial efficiency. I could not agree more with what the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, has said: you can hove machines, you can have all this automation brought into industry, but in the end it is a matter of men. And they, the British Road Services, had men who had the sense to go out and sell a service and to study what the customer wanted.
The noble Lord, when he talks about transferring traffic, is talking about something that makes me shudder. It is true that you can transfer traffic. We may, in this terrible time in which we live, be compelled to have petrol rationing. That will transfer traffic. I was delighted to hear the Minister of Transport say in another place only yesterday that he would not artificially take from the most economical form of transport, and force what he took on to what was not the most economical form of transport. We have to be desperately careful about that, because transport has been the plaything of political Parties ever since I can remember. I do not know, of course, but I do not think I shall ever see in my life a time when it is not. So the question arises—and this is what the noble Lord really was getting at—how can the railways, which are losing traffic every day, carry on successfully?
The noble Lord has mentioned this Productivity Council's report on freight handling. I do not agree with him that it is an excellent Report. I think it is

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one of the poorest Reports which has been produced by this body. I have my grave suspicions that at one time it was rewritten by the British Transport Commission, because it is a very good advertising boost for them. But it says not one word about what is the heart of the problem. The heart of the problem is this. It is no good having modernisation on the railways it is no good, as the noble Lord said, raising the speed of freight trains from 4 m.p.h. to 100 m.p.h. It is no good having forklift trucks and modern conveyor belts in the centre of Birmingham. When it comes to dispersing goods from the country stations, what do you find? The goods lie there for days on end while clerks write out bills of lading and invoices that were invented in the days of Queen Victoria.
One of the things you must have in dealing with industry is salesmanship. And one of the reasons for the success of British Road Services was that it had drafted into it, willy-nilly, men who had had to struggle for their living, men who had had to fight for their businesses. They have gone out and worked on that essential matter. If the truth must be told, some people in authority in British Railways still seem to have it in their heads that when they carry your freight they are conferring upon you a very great favour. That is not the way to get business. May I give your Lordships one glaring example to illustrate what I mean? I should say that when someone consigns a consignment carriage paid, he expects that that means that what is consigned is carriage paid to its destination. That is what happens with British Road Services. But in the case of the railways the poor unfortunate person who receives the goods has still to pay a few odd pence or a few odd shillings to have them transported from the local railway station to his house. What that must cost in clerical work alone must, I should think, be prodigious.
These are some of the things that have to be dealt with before we talk about mechanical handling. The noble Lord has spoken about the "piggy-back". I could not help thinking of an instance which I saw the other day. That was a seagoing vessel being transported from Hull to Dagenham by road. I thought that was a supreme example of a "piggy
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back". The real reason why the journey was made by road was because it was very much cheaper that way. Here was a ship weighing 35 tons put on the road, congesting the road and holding up traffic, because it was cheaper than putting it on the water at Hull and steaming it down to Dagenham.
The noble Lord has compared freight handling in this country with the way it is done in America. I hope he will not mind my saying so, but I do not think that that was a very fair comparison. I also have travelled in America, and during the course of journeys totalling thousands of miles by rail I have seen only very few freight trains. The freight trains over there travel at a speed of only about 10 m.p.h. but they are as much as two or two and a half miles in length, and they move at night. The problem over there is quite different from our problem over here. Here we are concentrated in a small island and our conveyor belts do not stretch the distances. I am afraid that we shall have to try to work this thing out. I shall have something perhaps more serious to say in another debate upon how I think it is going to work out.
I consider that the noble Lord has served a very useful purpose in raising this topic to-day. I think he has pinpointed many of the difficulties that exist and many of the things that are wrong. But in my view we must have more integration. At the present time we have common ownership as between the railways and 16,000 long-distance haulage vehicles. We have, I believe (the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, will forgive me if I put forward only a rough figure) about 1,500.000 goods-carrying vehicles in this country under A, B and C licences. We really are at the point of getting back to 1930. Then we were suffering from a surfeit of transport, not transport inefficiency. There was competition, and competition is a good thing sometimes but if you have competition between essential services, as we have in transport. it may temporarily․I think it has come about only in the last six months of the price-cutting war․reduce transport costs on the road, but I do not think it is going to be good for the economy of this country in the long run.
My Lords, I feel that I have not contributed very much to this debate. I have tried to express my views on some

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of the points raised by the noble Lord. I have tried -to state as clearly as I can what I consider is the fundamental problem which we shall have to consider in a very short space of time—that is, how we are going to keep British Railways in being for their essential purpose at not too high a cost, either to those who use them or to the British taxpayer. I do not intend to embark on that subject this afternoon. I should like to conclude as I began by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, for raising this matter this afternoon. He has attracted a list. of speakers that staggered me and I shall listen to what they have to say with the greatest respect. When we come to debate this question on a more serious matter, I hope that we shall have learned something from this afternoon's debate.
3.51 p.m.
LORD MCCORQUODALE OF NEWTON: My Lords. I should like to make a short intervention in this debate as the Motion on the Order Paper refers to the publication on freight handling issued by the British Productivity Council, of which I have the privilege of being vice-chairman. The noble Lord, Lord Forbes, was very kind in his remarks about our publication, but I do not hold it against the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that his comments were a little cool. I should like to read one passage from our report on freight handling, which is printed on the cover.
"Transport is Britain's largest industry. It employs directly about nine per cent. of the total working population, and is estimated … to cost something like £1.800 million a year. … None of it spent directly en improving our national economy … This vast non-productive industry … has the power to safeguard or shipwreck that economy."
I would say immediately, on behalf of the British Productivity Council, that we welcome the opportunity given by this debate of drawing the attention, if we can, of all members of the transport industry to some of the modern industrial techniques which are proving so successful in industry and agriculture and which we feel would, in many cases, be equally applicable to transport.
The British Productivity Council is sponsored by employers' and trade union organisations and supported by Her Majesty's Government. Mr. James Crawford, who, as your Lordships will know, is an eminent member of the General Council of the Trades Union
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Congress, is the chairman of the Council. I think that we are in a position to obtain a broad picture of the condition of British industry; and because we are non-partisan and non-political we feel that we can often draw impartial attention to industrial activities which we think could be the subject of greater concern and attention, either of the individual firms or of the organisations of the industries concerned. Moreover, through the visits paid by the Anglo-American Council's productivity teams to the United States in the last few years we have been able to publish a most comprehensive picture of developments in that country, and have endeavoured to point out both the advantages and the disadvantages of adopting heir techniques over here. So far as freight handling is concerned, we think that productivity has recently tended to increase, partly through the adoption of more up-to-date methods of loading and unloading (although the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth does not seem to think much of that) and partly through the introduction of other modern techniques—notably, notably, work study.
Our interest in freight handling goes back to 1950, when the productivity team from both sides of industry, and from both nationalised industry and private firms, went over to America. This team was one of the most successful that went. I think, and they produced an admirable report. Among the members of the team was Mr. Frank Cousins, now general secretary of the largest trade union in the country, and I should like to pay tribute to the energy and the enthusiasm which he put into the work of his anion in this respect. I think that your Lordships may be interested to know that members of that team, on both management and trade union sides, still meet from time to time to discuss their problems. Surely that: is as clear an indication as any to support the contention that it is possible, given a common goal, for members of the different sides of industries and of different political Parties to work together for a common cause.
Unfortunately, the knowledge of all these good management techniques does not appear to us to be as widespread as it might be, especially in the transport industry. Some members of the industry—indeed, some members of al industries—are naturally inclined to say, "These

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ideas may be all right in their place, but they do not really refer to us: we have special problems." I would suggest that at best this is an unlikely supposition, for if some organisations can use these techniques with great success—and many do—then it should be possible for others to do the same. I think that this applies especially, so far as the transport industry is concerned, to work in goods depots and warehouses. Among the techniques which we feel should be studied more is that of work study, which is proving of such enormous value to industry in general.
At the British Productivity Council we have our own work study unit which can go wherever it is required to tell the story of work study. Up to the present I feel that the transport industry, as a whole, has not been, shall I say, particularly enthusiastic about learning of these techniques; but of course there are hopes for the future. In addition to their proposal to spend over £1,000 million on modernisation, British Railways are setting up their own productivity council—indeed, I think it has already been set up. I understand that one of the objects of this council is to improve efficiency on the railways by means of work study and the Productivity Council are pleased to see that the council is representative both of the management and the trade unions concerned, as we are ourselves. We hope that the new council will play a valuable role in improving the efficiency of the railway industry, both passenger and freight. While problems in the different sections of the transport industry are, and must be, peculiar to themselves, in many cases we think that it is at least worth looking into this example of British Railways. In this connection, I would pinpoint the docks. I hope that those responsible for organisation and management in the ports of our country will take some steps to investigate this technique, which we believe could be of great value. Your Lordships will not expect me to give a lecture on work study this afternoon: there are many pamphlets and publications which can be secured to that end.
There is, however, one other contributory factor to which I should like to refer. We believe that the business of learning from one another in industry is a funda-
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mental principle, and we have been "pushing" that for all we are worth, ever since the formation of the original Anglo-American Council of Productivity, to which the British Productivity Council is the successor. That is why productivity teams were sent to America, in the first place, and why they sent teams back here, as they did in like measure; and that is why teams from the Continent of Europe are at this moment in America studying techniques there. We in the British Productivity Council have also attempted to encourage exchange visits in this country between firms in different industries in different areas.
There are now over 100 local productivity committees up and down the country, and nearly all of them operate what we call a circuit system, or a circuit scheme, which means that representatives of both sides in one industry, one factory or one firm visit factories and industries in the neighbourhood dealing with different or allied subjects, and compare notes freely. I think it would be your Lordships' experience that anyone associated with industry, however large or small his experience has been, will find something to learn if he visits and spends a few hours in another factory in another industry. So far, I regret to say, the transport industry do not seem to have played a very great part in the circuit scheme. Possibly it is a little more difficult for them, but we would urge them to give consideration to this matter, because, while each industry has its own special problems, there are a great many problems which are common to all industries, and we can all learn from one another. I have no doubt, also, that the transport industry has a great deal to teach the other industries, if they would become interested in this scheme.
I hope that your Lordships will not consider from my remarks that our Report (which no doubt you have read) is wholly critical of the transport industry: indeed, it is not. We have endeavoured to pinpoint with praise the various physical developments which have taken place since the end of the war, but I would suggest that our economic situation in this country is such that no one can afford to rest and sit back on his laurels. We must all determine that every encouragement shall be given to industries in general and, according to this

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debate, to the transport industry, not only to keep pace with the demands that we make on it to-day but also to make sure that its development will keep pace with the demands that will be made upon it in future. The physical factors affecting the industry, such as roads, the building of railways and other methods of transport, may primarily be the affairs of Government, but management and men in the organisation can also do a great deal. The efficiency with which the system operates will, I believe, depend upon the individual members, both of management and the trade unions, in transport. We trust that these members of managements and unions will take full advantage of the facilities which are offered to them to learn about and, where possible, and where they think advantageous. apply, these modern techniques to their special industry.
4.5 p.m.
LORD MATHERS: My Lords. it is not my intention to delay your Lordships long. It seems to me that the noble Lord who has just spoken has effectively answered the suggestion made by my noble friend, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that perhaps the productivity review which is principally under discussion to-day, had part of its authorship—to put it quite mildly—in the British Transport Commission and I hope my noble friend will have noted the terms in which the noble Lord. Lord McCorquodale of Newton, spoke.
When the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, told me a week or two ago that he intended to raise this matter, without giving me much in the way of details as to the line he would take, I indicated to him that I should endeavour to take part in the debate. I would say to the noble Lord that I am glad he has raised this subject, arid has done so, if I may say so without appearing to be patronising, in such art attractive manner. While I agree with him as to the importance of the subject, I venture to say that it appeared to me, on first blush, that what he was doing, on the road on which he was travelling, was not quite in keeping with the general attitude of noble Lords on the other side of the House. For really, what he was contending for, to my mind, in the attractive speech that he made, was a co-ordinated or, should I say, an integrated transport system. Of
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course, we on this side of the House believe in that; we designed our transport policy along that line, and it has, now, to some extent, been sabotaged by Her Majesty's present Government.
My thought was that perhaps the British Transport Commission's Proposals for the Railways (Command 9880) might come into this debate to-day, but it appears, from what my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth has said, that there is to he a separate debate on that subject. That has, to some extent, taken away from the observations I had intended to make. However, I have a summary of opinion on that Command Paper that I should like to put to the House, because it seems to me to put things so concisely. This critic says:
"It can be argued that the present bad financial position"—
that is, of the railways—
"is largely due to Government policy. First the inflationary situation has greatly increased costs, and wage demands had to be made which could not immediately be offset by increased charges. The Government, in 1952 and 1956, intervened to prevent the Commission increasing its charges in accordance with its statutory obligations and contrary to the advice of the responsible statutory body. Nothing in the White Paper justifies that interference with the Commission's endeavour to operate on a commercial basis. Government transport policy has undermined the Commission, and is in large measure responsible for its difficulties. The Commission point out that for its first seven years it was more or less in balance, except during the period when it was affected by the devaluation of sterling. Deterioration in its finances was due to Government economic and transport policies. The 1953 Act ended all possibility of consolidating and extending the integrated transport system planned by tae 1947 Act; and by de-nationalising a large section of road haulage, it deprived it of profitable revenue. It is significant that the Whie Paper practically ignores all but the railway operations of the Commission."
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): Has the quotation which the noble Lord is reading been published?
LORD MATHERS: It is a criticism of the White Paper that has come into my hands. I give it merely as a judgment upon the White Paper vis-à-vis the position in which the Transport Commission finds itself. I do not wish to impinge upon the debate which is? promised on another occasion on the White Paper, and that is all I wish to say about that matter.

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My opinion with regard to the way in which the present position of transport should be tackled, especially so far as the railways are concerned, is to give the Commission as free a hand as possible. Its Chairman and members are competent people who may be trusted to justify their actions if given the proper opportunity, and I am sure that the members of the Commission would give full attention to considerations such as those advanced by the noble Lord who has raised this subject to-day. The way in which this matter has been raised is, I think, helpful to the debate that is to come in connection with the White Paper in the not too distant future. I am glad to have had the opportunity of making this brief incursion into a debate which I think is of great importance, and I congratulate the noble Lord who raised it.
4.13 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I should like to add my tribute to the noble Lord. Lord Forbes, for raising this important subject to-day—a subject in which every industry and, indeed, everyone in this country is interested. I propose to confine myself this afternoon to dealing with a specialised part of the freight system in this country, and that is the question of air freight. Problems are rather different in respect of air freight from those in any other type, because the packages are mostly small and the problems of physical handling are not nearly so acute. The great problem with regard to air freight is one of paper. It often happens that more time is taken over preparing the documents than the actual flight of the aircraft concerned from point to point. It is no good sending out a package to London Airport to go by air freight if the Customs Department take six or seven hours, or sometimes days, before allowing it to leave. All air freight is urgent, otherwise it is obvious that shippers would not pay the higher charges in comparison with surface transport. Up to now, the Customs Department and the Board of Trade have not fully realised that dealing with air freight is a completely new problem. It is no good using the old systems of documentation that were good enough for goods going on a voyage taking many weeks. Everything has to be streamlined, as the aircraft themselves are streamlined.
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I made a speech on this subject in your Lordships' House just under a year ago, and I am glad to know that, possibly as a result of what was said during that debate, there has been some improvement. I am glad to know that a party of officials from the Board of Trade and the Customs Department visited airports on the Continent—in particular, Amsterdam and Zurich—to see what could be done to speed up dealing with air freight at London Airport and other airports in this country. This visit was an excellent thing, but I think it might have been even more successful if the Board of Trade had invited representatives of the air carriers and some of the larger shippers of air freight to accompany them on this voyage of inspection, so that the mutual problems could have been discussed, at the time, with all the interests concerned.
In my speech last year, I said that we were rapidly losing—in fact, had largely lost—all transhipment business because of the red tape in this country. By "transhipment business" I mean, for example, a valuable package coming in by B.E.A. from Rome for onward shipment by Pan-American to New York. That parcel is really not imported into this country at all. It merely remains at the airport a short period between unloading from one aircraft and loading in another. Nevertheless, in this country it has to undergo all the long formalities of documentation similar to those required for a genuine import. What happened? None of this transhipment freight came to London at all, but was sent via Zurich or Amsterdam, with consequent loss of revenue to our British carriers. I am glad to say that, as a result of the Continental visit, the transhipment procedure has been greatly simplified. I should like to congratulate the Government and the Customs on the fact that the speed of transhipment now compares favourably with that at other European airports. I think that the new procedure has been going now for about a month, and I understand that it is working very well. We have now to work hard to get back that transhipment traffic which we had previously lost.
That is very satisfactory, but I am sorry to say that practically nothing has been done in regard to speeding up the export of small consignments. Some of

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your Lordships may from time to time have been stranded on the Continent, because, we will say, an axle on your car has been broken or you require some part urgently. You telephone the manufacturer and are surprised that the part does not come within twenty-four hours. That is probably due to the complicated documentation necessary at the airport.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Forgive my interrupting, but it is a particularly interesting point. Is the documentation to which the noble Lord has referred, and which causes such delay, due to freight difficulties or to Customs?
LORD GIFFORD: To Customs. As I understand it, the present procedure is known as the pre-entry method: in other words, all the documents—and very voluminous documents they are—have to be prepared before the object, however small, is actually shipped in the aircraft. This is quite different from the method used before the war, when, of course, air freight was in its infancy. At that time a procedure known as post-entry was allowed. In other words, the piece of freight was permitted to be shipped first and the documents were subsequently taken to the Long Room and dealt with by the Customs. One reason given for not reviving this procedure now is exchange control. Regulations with regard to exchange control have been very much lightened; Form C.D. 3 (I think it is) is now necessary only for freight to the value of over £500. So I see absolutely no reason why it should not be possible to revert to the pre-war practice for less valuable consignments.
I will now turn to the question of imports. Here again, the documents are cumbersome and lengthy. Physically, they are enormous pieces of paper, and all sorts of questions on them have to be answered, many of them entirely unnecessary. I feel quite sure that this documentation could be greatly simplified. There again, I feel sure that we can learn from other countries, who use very much simpler documents. in similar circumstances. There is one way in which certain imports could be more quickly dealt with. There is at the moment a system for packages up to a value of £25 which allows the object to be imported simply by recording it in the
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Customs Long Room in a register, without large number of documents having to be prepared. People accustomed to the handling of large quantities of air freight, and the air companies, believe that this transit shed register, as it is called, could be used to a much greater extent. I think it would be quite possible for it to be used for articles up to a value of, say, £200, where the duty probably would not be more than about £50.
There is only one other class of freight which I want to mention briefly, and that is the luggage of air passengers. The luggage which travels with the passenger is excellently dealt with, and I do not think there is any airport in the world where the luggage comes through so quickly and is passed more expeditiously than here. There is, however, one snag, and that is where the passenger sends luggage in advance. He may be paying several business calls on the Continent by air, and detouring by various air lines. He sends a couple of suitcases in advance direct to this country. So far, no arrangement has been made possible whereby this luggage can catch up with him in the ordinary Customs hall and he passed with his other luggage. It has to come in as freight, be documented, cleared by a landing officer, and collected from the other side of the airfield. Those passengers with this experience tell me that it is a most cumbersome and annoying process. I have tried, briefly, to cover this not unimportant question of air freight. Once more, I put my plea for simplification of paper work so that goods can be moved quickly by air and not sometimes take as long as by surface means, merely because of delay in the Customs sheds and elsewhere.
4.28 p.m.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I do not think anybody can doubt that the subject we are discussing to-day is of great importance. We have heard a great deal, and very truly, about the fact that the economic condition of our country is dependent upon increased productivity but it surely is obvious that increased productivity is very much dependent upon increased efficiency of transport, both to and from the factory. In fact, transport really may be said to hold a key position in industry for, without it, without an efficient system of transport, any improvements in factory machinery

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or methods of production are completely useless. Unless one has the transport to cope with the productivity it is no use having it.
First I will touch lightly on the subject of the railways. Three points occur to me. The noble Lord, Lord Forbes, spoke of one very strongly and enlighteningly, I thought; that is, the fact that it is surely essential that British Railways must get to work and replace their older rolling stock, the loose-coupled type, with fast-coupled and through-braked rolling stock in order that much faster goods transport may take place. I thought his suggestion of the "piggy-back" system, as it is called, was an extremely interesting one. It deserves a great deal of examination, and probably could be made the solution to our great problem of the compromise between rail transport and road transport.
I felt that in his speech the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, was almost singing a requiem for British Railways. I hardly feel that they are quite dead yet. They are certainly suffering from malnutrition very badly and also, I think, from old age; but there is every hope that they may recover and, what is more, do what most of us would like to do, and that is regain our lost youth. Another point that British Railways might consider more strongly is the modernising of marshalling yards. That, too, was touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Forbes. The old type cause much frustration, and modern types have been built in this country which have proved so efficient in their working that I am certain they would greatly speed up the re-marshalling and reconstruction of trains.
Now I am going to look at the problem from the point of view of the roads—and what a problem it is! When we look at the congestion on our roads to-day, surely it is obvious that strong measures will have to be taken by the Ministry of Transport before we come to an absolute standstill. Unfortunately, the Ministry seems to be willing only to nibble at the question. Minor repairs and alterations to roads are taking place all over the country, and they certainly must cost a good deal; but they are doing nothing whatsoever to ease the problem or to make an effective solution.
I do not know whether any of your Lordships happened to attend the three-
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day conference on urban motorways which was held by the British Road Federation in September. It was a most enlightening conference. The Minister of Transport paid it a brief visit. I must confess that I was not surprised that he did not stay longer, because, if he had, he would have learned some very unpalatable facts. For one thing, he would have learned that, in spite of the fact that we have more vehicles per square mile than perhaps any other country, we are among the most backward in our road system. A really effective road system as far as concerns freight handling, which is the subject we are considering to-day, would mean an enormous expenditure of money. It seems to me in the present circumstances, when economically we are not a wealthy country, that for the moment the best thing would be to try and make the most effective compromise. We cannot at the moment, perhaps, afford to build a vast scheme of new roads, though I only wish we could. Eventually. I think it will have to be done. But at the moment we can increase the effectiveness of transport a great deal by making a slight compromise.
A few points arise to me, such as these. The congestion on the roads is caused really not so much by the private motorist, who is blamed for so much of it, but by large and slow-moving vehicles—those lorries which carry a heavy load and which are incapable of moving fast. They cannot help it because it is inherent in their size and in their speed. I should like to say, in parenthesis, that I have always found long-distance lorry drivers among the most courteous and efficient on the roads. If we were to introduce legislation that would keep lorries of over a certain unladen weight off the road, and force the goods that are carried by them to go by rail, or else force the lorries themselves to travel by rail, as the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, suggested, in the "piggy-back" system, it seems to me that that would be part of a solution. The 20 m.p.h. limit, which this Report of the British Productivity Council says is more honoured in the breach than in the observance, would then be removed and the lighter lorries would be able to travel at a reasonable speed. Naturally, the heavier lorries will have a short distance of road travel between station and factory, but the shorter that can be made the better. Equally, if they do not have

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long journeys, they will not cause the frightful congestion that they do at the moment.
I know one road in particular that springs Ito my mind at once—namely, the A.30 between Basingstoke and Black-bushe. It is a road which should be, and is, looked upon normally as one of our trunk roads, but it is wide enough for only a single stream of traffic each way, and it is very winding. The result is that if one gets behind one of these large and slow-moving lorries one is very likely to remain there for miles, and with a queue of cars forming up behind one. Well, that kind of thing could be avoided and the speed of freight handling could be greatly improved if the heavier lorries were to travel by rail and the lighter ones were to be allowed to increase their speed. Unless we have better roads it does not seem to ore that we can ease the problem in any other way.
Why is it. I wonder, that road transport has replaced rail transport to such a great degree? As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has said, it is largely due to the fact that it gives a door-to-door delivery, which makes it much simpler both for the manufacturer and for the customer and of course it is quicker. But if the railway improvements go ahead along the lines that we have heard, I do not think that would necessarily be the case. Of course, road transport, too, has certain drawbacks. Although, as I say, it is not really generally observed, theoretically the 20 m.p.h. limit has to be observed it drawing up the timetables for loading and delivery, and I think an average of 16 miles an hour is the limit that has been taken as the maximum. That, of course, refers only to heavy lorries, those over three tons. Certainly these lorries are not directly responsible for accidents. Certainly, we cannot say they are: first, because they are driven by very responsible men, and secondly because naturally their speed does not allow them to do anything unexpected. Nevertheless, they cause such congestion that the less responsible driver begins to suffer from impatience; and impatience is, of course, the one thing that is fatal on the road, because it makes one do silly things. I regret to say that a very large percentage of our drivers are of the less responsible type and do these silly
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things. That is why we have accidents. I feel, therefore, that the unladen weight should be strictly limited, and also the overall width, because often it is hard to see past a lorry; and in some cases the cab is so narrow and the lorry so wide that the driver is quite incapable of seeing anything that may happen to be behind him.
Now I turn to the vexed question of waterways. The last time I spoke on this subject, the noble Earl tool: each of my points, tore it into neat little shreds and threw it on the floor. It was a masterly performance. I hope the noble Earl will not think I am being too obstinate if I say that at the end I was not entirely convinced. I gathered from his speech that the policy of the Ministry of Transport with regard to canals is to concentrate on those which are already paying propositions and to ignore the others. That seems to me a very short-sighted policy indeed. Had it been observed in the past with all our various methods of transport and of industry, we should have had none of the facilities that we have today. Naturally I do not expect a queue to he standing outside the Ministry asking when the first barge is to sail on a given canal, but surely, with proper publicity and a growing number of users who find it an economical and satisfactory means of transport, it would become a paying proposition, and would rapidly pay back the comparatively small sum that would be needed for the reconditioning of these canals.
On the last occasion I was speaking in particular of the Kennet and Avon Canal, but naturally what. I said applies also to others. At that time I quoted a figure of £250,000, which the noble Earl rather questions; but even if the cost were more than that, it is a great deal lower than the figure which would be required to build an efficient road of that length. These waterways arc an alternative to our grossly overcrowded roads, and to the railways, which are already coping with almost as great a density of traffic as they can handle. Are we to ignore them simply because in their present decayed condition they are not a paying proposition? Surely it is rather like ignoring a house which has been vacant for many years and is falling to pieces but which, for a reasonable sum, could be put into good condition.

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I entirely agree with one point brought up earlier in our debate, about the desire to work, the desire for service and the team spirit, which unfortunately seem to have disappeared. I may be treading on rather dangerous ground when I say that, on the railways, nationalisation was to some extent responsible for that. I am not speaking with authority, because I cannot do so, but I remember being taken round the Royal Oak engine sheds once, by an old ex-driver, a very noted driver, who in his day had made a world speed record. He was showing me the sights, and we came across one of his old friends who was still working there. He asked how things were going, and his old friend replied: "Well, it is no use expecting anything of these young fellows nowadays. All they want to do is to get off the moment the whistle blows." One must admit that that is rather the spirit in some quarters to-day and in more quarters than one. But I believe that it could be eliminated if we were to get back that feeling of pride in one's own railway, or whatever one's concern may be, the feeling that one was working for it, not merely for money but with pride in one's work. I believe this psychological aspect is a little ignored to-day by those responsible for the organisation of industry, yet I feel it is highly important. I only hope that before long we shall go back to the time when we may see everybody—each one of us—doing his work because he feels he wants first to serve his company or his industry, whatever it may happen to be, and secondly. by so doing, serve also his country.
4.47 p.m.
LORD GLYN: My Lords, I wish to intrude in this debate for a short time and will start by thanking the noble Lord who introduced this Motion, because it is of vital importance at this time, when we are seeking to increase our exports, that means of transport should be considered with particular care. Many of the subjects mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Forbes—"piggy-back" transport, and other such matters—have been most carefully considered by the Railway Commission. As with so many other things, we suffer through having been pioneers in the railway industry. One of the difficulties is that the "piggy-back" arrange-
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ment can more easily be operated by countries with later railway systems, which have not differences of gauge, high platforms and so on. In considering how far we can convey goods on the "piggyback" system in this country, we find that we have almost to reconstruct certain sections of track with very narrow, knife-board types of conveyancing vehicles.
I wish to say something with regard to the work that has been done by the Railway Commission and the old Railway Executive, something which I am sure will hurt many people but it is true. No industry has been so messed about by politicians as the railway industry. In contrast to what has happened in other countries—France, in particular, as well as Italy and Belgium, to quote only a few—those of us who were connected with the railways and who realised, after all the hard war work was done, that we had been working ourselves to death in order to win the war, found that, instead of the remedies put forward by those at that time responsible for the railways being adopted, nothing was done for ten years. For ten years the railways were a kind of Cinderella, despite the fact that they represented the most important work to be done. Then the railways found themselves mixed up in Party politics. I hope and trust that for the time being that has all come to an end, because nothing did more to interfere with traffics than the intrusion of politics of that kind into railway matters. A point which is not often realised is that £3.100 million is invested in transport. of which £1,328 million is invested in railways. A large part of the railways needs modernisation. But if you go through the plans of the Transport Commission and you look back at the plans of the old Railway Executive, you will find that a great many of the reforms which are now supported would have been in operation long ago if we had been able to go ahead as planned.
There is one thing that I should like to say in regard to the matter of wagon demurrage, which has been mentioned by Lord Forbes. It is a deplorable fact that not only are there certain idle hours for wagons in railway sidings, but that far too many traders still utilise railway wagons as extra storage for their purposes. That is one of the big crimes which traders commit. I believe that if they realised how the cost of freight is increased by the very

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fact of this demurrage, they would clear their sidings much more quickly. Another result of demurrage is that it delays the turn-round of wagons. This is not due to any fault of the railways; it is merely that traders will hold on to the wagons. It is impossible to take away a wagon which is loaded; it must be left until the rader has discharged it.
Another matter about which I wish to speak is the continuous brake. That will do more good for the railways as regards freight handling than anything else. This change-over is being tackled by the Transport Commission. Every week, wagons are being brought in and fitted with. proper brakes. Not only will this, I hope, put an end to the clanging of goods wagons at night, but it will enable the railways to operate freight trains at some passenger train speeds, which in turn will facilitate quicker delivery. But the tilting of continuous brakes is a very expensive operation. It will be completed successfully only if we have the wholehearted support of the men in the shops, as well as that of the men responsible for the handling of trains. I am sure that when this new system comes into general operation it will be for the benefit of the country to an extent which is hardly realised at the present time.
A further point is that of the "green arrow" system. Some noble Lords may not have heard of this system. It was started in May, 1953, and its purpose is to speed up the transit of goods for export. This special mark is easily "spotted" by the railway workers. Its main purpose is to give quick delivery, so that goods which are so marked will reach their destinations without delay. People have sometimes said: "Why not mark everything with a green arrow?" That, of course, would be ridiculous. The railways have to handle all kinds of goods traffic, some of it perishable and some of it not perishable, and there is not the same urgency in all cases. The green arrow mark is for goods for export, and it means that traders engaged in export business can be sure of almost certain delivery within the hours specified. It also means that shin-owners have much better opportunity of gauging the tonnage necessary. Moreover, it helps at the clocks and assists in cutting down road congestion. Clearly, if goods for export are conveyed under
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that express system, it ensures quick de livery straight from the factory to the shipper.
The noble Lord, Lord Forbes, did not mention the matter to which I am now about to refer, but I think one ought to give credit where credit is due. I know that everything connected with the railways is not always good, but this is something for which they deserve our gratitude. I think most noble Lords must have realised that the streets of London in the spring—and in the 'Otter, too, for that matter—are much brightened by the many flowers that come crier from the Continent. But little attention is paid to the fact that the success of this very important trade is due to the handling and the ferry service which brings fruit and flowers and other perishable goods to the London market in first-class condition. That is a far more difficult trade to handle than is often realised. But a very good and satisfactory trade has been established and maintained, and, as I say, it is one which adds brightness to the lives of all of us—and that surely is something well worth while.
Now I want to say a word about something in connection with which I think the railways have been remiss. There seems always to have been an idea that weight and strength go together. The result is that in far too many cases what we call "containers" are still made of great, big, heavy baulks of wood, just as they were in Georgian and Victorian days. Now, however, we have light metals and other materials which may be used to great advantage for this purpose. The use of such materials would enable traffic of this kind to be immensely improved. Often the tare weight of the container to-day is far greater than the weight of the goods it contains. What is needed is to construct containers of very light material, so that the tare weight can be reduced. There are materials such as fibre glass, and so on, which can be used. They can be moulded and made very srong—indeed, they can be made so that they have a strength equal to that of containers made with the wooden baulks of which I have spoken.
The lighter containers, naturally, can be much more easily handled; and, most important, such containers can be shifted from road vehicles on to the railways and vice versa without a great deal of

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handling. It is much easier to deal with appropriate goods in that way. The employment of the container system has grown enormously in the last few years. I am sure that it would have grown a great deal more if more care had been taken with regard to the material of which containers are constructed. If advantage is taken of such materials as those to which I have alluded it means that a whole train can be loaded with refrigerated perishable goods in containers, and they can be delivered with great rapidity to all parts of the country.
I should like next to mention something which I should be grateful if some of your Lordships would take the opportunity to look into for yourselves. A very interesting experiment has been made at Consett, in the North of England, by British Railways in conjunction with the Consett Iron Company. It is a very important experiment because it shows what can be done, as the noble Lord, Lord McCorquodale of Newton, said, if a work study is made between firms and the transport industry. The Consett Iron Works are largely dependent on imported ores. These ores come in great quantities, for the output of steel from Consett is about 18,000 tons a week. The ore is imported from abroad; it is sent over in large vessels, and everything turns on unloading them quickly.
It is only a 22-mile haul from the Tyne to the Consett Iron Works, and special trains are made up of 56-ton hopper wagons, of which there are nine to a train. The organisation is such that, when the whole of the ore has been conveyed to the Consett Works, there, merely by one man—the driver—pressing one lever, the bottoms of the hoppers fall out and the whole of the iron ore drops on to containers underneath and is distributed throughout the works. And not only that; there is a similar arrangement at the dock side, so that without any manhandling at all the iron ore is delivered from the hold of the ship to the works; it is handled mechanically throughout the whole process. This greatly reduces cost, compared with anything which has been done before. As all noble Lords know well, the steel industry is one of the most important industries of this country, and unless we do everything possible to increase production of steel, a great deal
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of our export trade will be held up. This co-operation between the Consett Iron Company and the North Eastern Region represents an example of co-operation between a firm with specialised work and the railway industry which I think should cheer the hearts of noble Lords who may have some doubt whether the railways are up to date.
The last thing I want to say is this. I believe that there is a very fine spirit at the moment among railway workers. A great many hard things have been said about them, but they are facing, in automation, a complete change. Unless these changes in mechanical handling, the use of electronics and all the other devices that have appeared, are accepted, the great transport industry will fall behind other industries. It is essential that there should be no doubt in people's minds, particularly in the workers' minds, that it will not be detrimental to their interests to co-operate in modernising the transport in this country.
I am convinced that the transport problems that we have to face in this island are far more difficult than those in almost every other country. The fact that the average wagon makes only thirty trips a year gives an idea of the waste that goes on, and until we are more economical and get rid of existing waste—and that depends entirely on co-operation with the workers․we shall not bring the whole of this great industry round to the position it ought to occupy. I spent more than thirty-five years on the railways, and we used to pay our chief officers a high rate of salary, commensurate with what a man received in a similar occupation in other industries. That is not always so to-day, and until that matter is readjusted, I am afraid that we shall not get a management as efficient as it should be. While wage-earners deserve to get a proper rate of pay, let us not forget that those in charge, who have come up from the bottom, are also worthy of recognition. Until we can get a good spirit from top to bottom, we shall not get the efficient working we want to have.
5.3 p.m.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, like other noble Lords, may I be allowed to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, on the excellent way in which he initiated this debate. He spoke with great knowledge and clarity. I find two things

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rather interesting about moving freight. They are perfectly obvious and simple and because of their simplicity are often completely overlooked. The first is that practically everything we see has been moved. That is a straightforward fact but a very expensive one. The second is that the moving of goods is a totally unproductive industry; yet, as has already been said, 9 per cent. of the total working population are engaged in this industry. If one were to stretch the point a little, one could say that out of every eleven people you see one is engaged in this totally unproductive job of work. Therefore, we must make this business of moving freight as efficient as it can possibly be, and I wish, to turn my few comments on the movement of freight by road and by rail and add a few suggestions, some of which have already been made, about how it can be improved.
To put it as simply as possible, there is a network of roadways and a network of railways in this country. One of the main differences is that the roadways are used by everyone and by anyone, when they like, where they like and as often as they like, while the railways are used only by British Railways. The tracks are there, whether in use or lying idle, and one would imagine that it should be our policy to see that those tracks are used to their fullest possible capacity. But is that what has been happening? The answer is that the reverse has been happening. In 1939, 54 million ions of goods, excluding coal and minerals, were moved by the railways, and in 1955, 48 million tons. During that same period the number of vehicles on the roads doubled, and whereas in 1955 the railways were carrying 48 million tons, it is estimated that the roads carried 904 million tons. I am fully aware that these figures are not directly comparable, but at least they are a pointer to the fact that all this extra moving of freight has come precisely where we do not want it․on to the roads.
What can we do about it? Many people, some of them most vociferous gentlemen, tell us that we must reorganise our road system and build new roads. I should like to make it clear from the first that I am not one of those. The other day I asked a contractor what it cost to build a road. He hummed and ha'ed and said. "It all depends"; but I got a
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figure of a sort out of him, which was that an A road, 22 ft. wide, would cost £.10 a yard: that works out at £ 17,500 per mile. I certainly would not urge any Government to spend money on a scale like that, particularly if economically we are not well situated to do so. I may be accused of sitting on the hedge, but I should like to urge the Government, where it is possible, when it is possible, to improve the roads, but not to go on with a major road building programme.
Clearly, there are many pieces of equipment that travel by road that ought to travel on the railway. We have all seen them—huge lorries, sixty or eighty feet long, travelling uphill on first gear, blowing out clouds of black smoke on the people behind them. Nobody can pass them. I witnessed such a procession at Stamford the other day. First. came an outrider in the form of a policeman on a motor bicycle. He was followed by a police car with two policemen in it. This was followed by a colossal lorry with two men on that it too five men to move this one lorry. My car was practically squeezed on to the pavement and all other traffic in the street was at a standstill, except for the slow. ponderous procession of unfortunates stuck behind the lorry. And what was on the lorry?—one propeller; just one propeller. I cannot help feeling flat it was that sort of situation which prompted A. D. Godley to write this charming verse:
"What is this that roareth thus?
Can it be a motor bus?
Yes, the swell and hideous hum
Indicat motorem bam",
and end his poem by saying something which I am sure reflects the opinions of marry of us:
"How shall wretches live like us
Cincti bis motoribus?
Domine, defende nos
Contra nos motores bos."
The place for these vast pieces of equipment which must be moved is on the railways.
There is one thing that could be done to improve the roads, and that is to abolish the 20 m.p.h. speed limit. I have always been amazed at three factors about that: first, that it was ever initiated; secondly, that it is always. broken; and thirdly, that those who break it are never prosecuted. It seems to me to be a quite useless law. In fact,

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the only people who abide by it constitute nothing other than a living danger, because all those who follow behind are so aggravated because they are going so slowly that eventually they overtake, more out of the desire to end their frustration rather than out of the desire to observe the most elementary principles of the Highway Code.
I wonder why it is that so much freight goes on to the roads and not on the railways. If we are honest with ourselves, I think we shall agree that the railways are inefficient. We have all heard it said: "It has gone by rail. I am afraid it will be held up." And how often have we heard it said: "I have sent it by rail. You will not hear of it for some time." We hear things of that kind said. The railways are slow and careless. If they want to keep the custom they require, they must produce a service which the consumer wants: it must be quick, and it must be reliable.
I would suggest that one of the ways of achieving this would be to incorporate an express goods service. At the risk of boring your Lordships, I should like to give an example of what I mean by efficiency. In the spring of this year I urgently required a piece of equipment for my farm. I rang up the manufacturers on a Friday and said, "I want this urgently. How quickly can you get it to me?" They said, "We will put it on the goods train." I said that I did not want that to be done, because I knew that it would take three or four days; and I told them to put it on a passenger train. They were to put it on a passenger train in Essex and send it to Norwich station, where I said that I would call for it on the Saturday. It did not arrive on the Saturday. Eventually, it arrived at my farm on a British Railways lorry the following Tuesday. That had taken four days. It did not go to Norwich, but went to Lowestoft. The only reason why I told them to put it on a passenger train was because I believed it was the quickest way that I could get the piece of equipment to me. Yet it took four days to go 90 miles. If British Railways work like that, they will never get any custom. They must be swift; they must be capable, and they must take a pride in doing the job and handling other people's goods. If they do incorporate an express
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goods service, I believe it will be found that more people will use the railways, and thus the railways themselves will be able to reduce their costs.
I could not agree more with what my noble friend Lord Forbes has said. I think there is tremendous scope for both roads and railways to join together more in the use of this "piggy-back" system of these movable containers. So I come to the point at which I started. The railways are there. Let us use them. The more we use them the cheaper they are to use; and the more we use them, the less we shall see of these hideous monstrosities crowding our over-congested roads. But, whatever we do, we must realise that the moving of goods and freight is unproductive work, and therefore must be done in the most efficient way and as quickly as possible.
5.15 p.m.
LORD BURDEN: My Lords, I hope that I shall be forgiven for intervening for just a few moments. It is now fifty-six years since, as a timid youth, I made application for employment with the old Midland Railway. One thing that has impressed me in those fifty-six years has been the idea of men who have not had any railway experience that they can run the railways so much better than those actively engaged in that work. I have often wondered whether that comes from the almost universal pleasure which young boys, particularly, find in playing at trains. Railwaymen have always had to suffer that sort of criticism, but some of the criticism has been based on knowledge not really advanced beyond that acquired when those people were playing at trains. Therefore, while I have listened to the criticisms made, as a railwayman my head is bloody but still unbowed. I am glad that this afternoon we have had a dose of sound common sense from a railwayman like the noble Lord, Lord Glyn.
The noble Lord, Lord Forbes, who has given us the opportunity for this debate, has devoted himself entirely to freight handling. There is another class of traffic which travels by railway and has to be handled by railwaymen, kindly and otherwise. I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Forbes can remember, or has ever seen, the famous Rule 167

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dealing with passengers. I think it must be fifty years since I read it, but I may remember it. It says:
"If any passenger is drunk or disorderly, to the annoyance of others, the guard must use all reasonable means to stop the nuisance, failing which he must have him, and any luggage which he may have, removed from the train at the first station."
Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, might apply his mind to some mechanical means for dealing with that problem.
We have had from the noble Lord, Lord Glyn, an instance of the way in which, without any public credit, the railways have developed this transcontinental ferry system, bringing the flowers to this country, and the inter-invoicing between Continental countries and this country. One sphere of its activities might be all right from the railway point of view, but every morning when I travel here I see a number of Volkswagens which have been brought over by Continental ferry standing waiting for further transport. The noble Lord, Lord, Lord Glyn, has explained some of the difficulties of the "piggy-back" system in this country—station platforms, and so on. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, will realise, however, that this development is already in operation on British Railways, in the transport of motors from London, to Scotland, and vice versa.
There is the problem of the turn-round of railway wagons; and we all agree that a quicker turn-round is absolutely necessary. May I bore the House with details of how it used to work? Every day a responsible goods agent sent a statement to headquarters that wagons were one, two or three days under load, and every effort was made to get the traders to co-operate and to unload more quickly. Will the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, look at this point and help me? One of the worst offenders in regard to keeping wagons under load is the coal merchant whose wagons are loaded with coal. Twelve wagons arrive at a goods station in the winter, when everybody is clamouring for coal. The roads are icy; the coal merchant is short of labour, and although he would like to get the coal to his customers, he just cannot do so. Who is going to pay this penalty charge of 6s. a day or up to £1 or more a day? The selling price of the coal is fixed by the National Coal Board, and the margin of
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profit which the coal trader may make is also fixed by the National Coal Board. How is he to recoup himself for the £1 a day charge? There are other problems of the same sort in connect ion with bricks.
I sometimes wish that attention could he paid to the faults of the traders when sending goods to be despatched by rail. The railways are endeavouring to educate traders and to ensure their co-operation, in packing so that this new paneling; system can be developed. A number of firms are doing it, but the railways would he happy if all works—not only the large factories, but the smaller ones also—would get down to the problem of the proper packing for paneling of the wares they send by rail. On hat point, I believe I am correct in saying that at the present moment there is a type of container, made of aluminium, which is being used by one Government Department. That might easily he extended. Following on that point, I wonder how much time is lost, and how much money has to be paid out, through the carelessness of traders in regard to returned empties or goods not properly addressed, wrongly addressed, or not addressed at all? The faults are not all on one side. There is a good deal which could be done if traders or their staffs were more cooperative. I am not saying that all traders are like that, but I know from my own experience that much time, thought and labour is expended by the railways to-day in order to get a larger measure of co-operation from the traders.
I feel that the railways have never had a fair deal. Before the war strenuous efforts were made by the old London and North Eastern Railway to keep their Ordinary Stock on the Trustee List and to pay ½ per cent. dividend. I would not go so far as to say that if nationalisation had not come the old London and North Eastern Railway would have found it impossible to carry on, but it was getting pretty near that state of affairs. But after the war, with nationalisation, the railways and the roads were brought together. Those of us who had any practical experience of the railways during the war will know' how the railways were inevitably allowed to run down because of the inability to keep them in proper running order. Not only that: many of their staff were away on war service. Then the railways were

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handed over to the British Transport Commission, who were told to get on with the job. Since nationalisation, it is fair to say that the railways have been starved of capital for development, and it is remarkable how much has been done up to the present time by the British Transport Commission under great difficulties. We shall have a debate on the White Paper and the Government's proposals at a later date.
Finally, I could not agree more heartily with what the noble Lord, Lord Glyn, said about this great industry being bedevilled by politics. The last time I spoke on this problem I ventured to appeal to politicians to let the railways alone and let them get on with the job. Nothing is more disheartening to railwaymen, who are proud of their jobs, than to hear the statement, no doubt made in all good faith, that nationalisation has undermined the morale of railwaymen. Quite frankly, that is not in accordance with the facts. It is true that it is taking time to weld together all these diverse elements, but if there is one industry in this country in which people are proud of their jobs it is the railway service. We have our difficulties, and the noble Lord, Lord Glyn, referred to the difficulties so far as those who are managing the railways are concerned. Administrative ability of that kind is rare, and we have to pay for it.
But there is another side. The old railwaymen of this country are going, and new ones are taking their place. Your Lordships will remember that the railways are in competition for their labour with industries, many of which are working on business in connection with munitions and so on. Some of those people work on a cost-plus system. It is difficult for the railways to-day to attract more and more of the right type of labour which they ought to have to replace the railways of the past because of this competition in regard to salaries and wages paid by firms who can afford them. If only Is. a week more were given to the 600,000 railwaymen (I am putting a low figure) it would mean a substantial increase in the wages and salaries bill.
Therefore, I hope that out of this debate good will come. I hope that both sides will realise that the staff, as well as the
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management, are imbued with the idea and the resolve to make this great industry run and work in the interests of the whole community. In order to help forward that great ideal, I say: please leave the railwaymen alone and let them get on with the job.
5.32 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I do not think that there is any dispute that there are too many things moving on the roads and, equally, that the railways could be used more. I hope that I shall not be considered too rash if I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, in his suggestion that integration is the heart of this matter. I would suggest that utilisation of each in its correct sphere is much more to the point. The railways themselves, in order to get the best and the quickest results, would prefer that, apart from the matter of the mineral trade, in the carrying of freight they could deal in either train loads or, alternatively, wagon loads. They would also prefer, if possible, to have a regular service or one for which there are trucks of the type available at very short notice. Both those needs are best served by railways on long-distance traffic. Let it not be said that there is not equally long-distance traffic for the roads. What I am concentrating on is long-distance railway traffic which, in its own sphere. has its own problems to solve in the way that it can do so best.
The British Transport Commission, as the Review on which this debate is founded tells one distinctly, is not by any means unaware of the various possibilities in this sphere and the ways in which it can win back freight which it has lost to the roads. The flower trade has already been mentioned in this debate. There are, for instance, regular services for the tomato trade from the South Coast and also the flowers from Penzance and the Scilly Isles. It would probably be of interest to your Lordships to know that in the 1955–56 season 199 special trains were run from Cornwall, carrying the broccoli traffic which went to London, Birmingham, Manchester and other big centres. Those are trips of the kind which can be done profitably and economically by British Railways. They have to be done between big centres and there must be a regular traffic. The fish trade is another case in point. There

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are fish trains which run from Aberdeen, Hull and Grimsby to the other big centres. There, British Railways are quick, regular and efficient. The number of these special trains has gone up colossally between 1939 and 1956. The number of trains is, in fact, now 75 per cent. greater than it was in1939. It can be helped by the co-operation of the traders in their methods of packing and their use of pallets and containers.
The traders can co-operate in these ways, but it is for the railways to provide the initiative for that co-operation, and they are doing so. Many are the attractions they offer for those who use pallets and standard-size containers, and for those who can provide enough goods and require regular service. Even if at the moment traders have their own lorries and prefer to use them, that is not the end of the battle, because when those lorries become obsolete or worn out, then is the moment for British Railways' inducement to take effect. Again, the British Transport Commission know this. Therefore it is by permanent advertisement that they must win this trade back—permanent advertisement for the sort of trade for which they are fit.
Their hands have been very largely untied by the revision of the freight charges scheme which is to come into force next year: but that they have not been completely untied is perhaps a pity. The present system is, at least, a great deal bette7. In combination, the ability to compete and the various facilities, which will be introduced under the modernisation, about which we are not to talk to-day, surely can put the railways back into the position in which they belong, where they will carry the freight for which they are suited and thus will help in the general transport difficulties of this country. At any rate, that is the object, and that is the sphere in which I believe the railways can be of most use. I hope they will have every possible encouragement in doing this.
5.37 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords. I should like first to congratulate my noble friend Lord Forbes on bringing this Motion before your Lordships and, in particular, on the way in which he has done so. At this stage of the debate it is useful to consider only some of the more fundamental points. Most of the
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detail has been discussed and a great many interesting things have been said, but I feel there are two fundamental points of view which govern some of the details connected with the haulage industry. The producer pf consumer goods wants, obviously and only. the cheapest and most efficient form of transport which he can get; but the man whose business is haulage has to make his living out of an efficient organization with a profit margin. From that, it seems to me that, given conditions of equal efficiency—and I an- not taking into account capital, their having full employment, and so on—it must always be cheaper to own and run your own vehicle, because you have not then to produce a profit margin. Where the origin of the material transported is on a farm or some remote place where there is no rail access and it must be loaded on to a lorry, and provided the distance is not too great, it seems that a lorry is nearly always the most efficient method of tackling the job. I think the lame can be said about door-to-door deliveries where again the points of origin and delivery are remote from rail. And given the same conditions I think it is true to say that when the freight is perishable the lorry is probably the most expedient way of tackling the problem.
It appears to me from that, that the railways should concentrate their efforts on the traffic which is suitable for them and which is not fundamentally better carried by lorry transport. I do not know whether they are allowed to do this but, if not, I think legislation should be introduced to enable them to discard what is fundamentally, and always trust be, traffic which they cannot really carry efficiently owing to their particular set-up. I do not think the railways should have to spend a large amount of capital equipping themselves to handle all and sundry in the way of traffic which fundamentally can never be a railway job. There is a great deal to be said in regard to the close classification of the traffic, and that the two sides of the industry, rail and road transport, should be carefully integrated—I do not want to be too enthusiastic about the word "integrated"—so that they both expand with the greatest possible efficiency in those two fields.
There is one aspect of road transport about which I should like to mention the possibilities. This matter may have been

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gone into—I do not know—but it appears to me that there is a possibility of using the "mothball" fleet of tank landing craft and ships to transport loaded lorries to the remote parts of the Western Islands, there to carry out the transportation of pit wood and timber, and particularly the small sizes of timber. It seems to me that that might open up to the Forestry Commission a lot of ground to which at the moment there is no access and to which there is unlikely to be any access, at any rate economically, for a long time to come. The same method could possibly be adopted to transport farm produce from remote crofts; fodder crops could be transported back, thus increasing the possibility of producing beef in those areas. One can elaborate the possibility of assistance to our economy from that scheme, remembering that very likely there will be a free trade area on the Continent. One might organise a door-to-door service to the Continent by utilising the same method. In any case if it has not been thoroughly examined, I think it would be a worthwhile proposition to consider.
There is one other point that I should like to mention. I may be wrong, but I believe that a number of new, all-steel wagons—I think they are mineral wagons—are appearing on the railways. Every week we see new wagons arriving. But although the railways were given permission and agreed to fit vacuum brakes, so far as I can see the wagons about which I am talking have not been fitted with these brakes. I am not speaking of wagons which are withdrawn and come out fitted with brakes; I am speaking of new wagons which appear to be coming off the production lines with the old handbrake and, so far as one can see, no provision for a vacuum cylinder and the dual-purpose brake such as is fitted to the fish cars from Aberdeen. I may be entirely wrong about that matter, but I should like to have some answer, because it is discouraging for people to observe these things and to think that nothing very much is happening in regard to the continuous braking system, which is of enormous importance to the railways. That is just a question in regard to the railways.
Then, one must bear closely in mind that any transport cost is an unwanted on-cost between the producer and the
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consumer. Therefore, whatever is done, the real crux of the matter is that the cost must be kept down to an absolute minimum. From the detailed side of it. I personally am quite happy to leave that matter in the hands of British Railways. Their engineers and people in charge (some of whom I used to know) are fully up to the job, and we can leave the detailed side in their hands. If we can help them by not meddling politically. I think it will be all to the good.
5.45 p.m.
LORD BENNETT OF EDGBASTON: My Lords, my noble friend Lord McCorquodale of Newton, has told your Lordships the story of the British Productivity Council, with which I have been associated from its commencement. I will not go over that ground again, but I should like to take this opportunity of paying a warm tribute to our American friends, who did more than anybody else to get these schemes going. I was a member of the Anglo-American Council for Productivity and I know what the Americans did. They not only threw open all their factories, but they paid every dollar of the expense to which we were put in sending our teams over to America. They made our teams welcome and looked after them splendidly: and, as I say, they paid the whole of the cost, which we could not have done. It was the success of the British productivity teams which eventually made possible the British Productivity Council. The work that they did to the benefit of this country is, I believe, immeasurable. It woke us up and it helped us to start a ball rolling which has not stopped.
Having said that, I will come to the subject before us. This is the twenty-fourth Report of the British Productivity Council, which is carrying on the work started by the Anglo-American Productivity Council teams which went over to America. When I looked at it first, I said to myself, "I suppose I shall read about fork-lifts and pallets"; and of course I did, because those are the two outstanding and most easily used facilities for increasing freight handling. I go to many works and I see them in use in growing numbers. Your Lordships would hardly believe the amount of work that is saved by these two single items. Numbers of organisations to-day which are not using them would be well

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advised to do so. It used to be all wry pretty to see a couple of men passing bricks to one another, bat you do not see that to-day. The bricks are put on to wooden platforms, sometimes with collapsible sides, and they are wheeled on and wheeled off; all that pretty play that we used to watch has gone.
I have read in this Report that Unilever's say that they are saving 60 per cent. in their handling charges by using these pallets. Not only is there a saving in the handling of things of different sizes, but there is also the saving of an enormous amount of warehouse space. Instead of things piling up on the shelves, they are lifted on pallets and put into position. So I would urge that an easy way for people to help themselves, by saving building space and reducing their costs, is by the use of these two simple things, pallets and fork-lifts. I read in this Report some criticisms that we in industry have not provided quite the right type of loading and unloading decks. I think that is quite right. But if you look at the vast changes that take place, whereby industries have been reorganising and redeveloping, you will realise that as soon as one loading and unloading deck has been built something happens and you have to alter it again; so that if you are not progressive, you are always out of date in part of your premises.
Some of the things I had intended to say have been said by other noble Lords, so I will not repeat them. I have a foot in each camp and perhaps by the time I have finished your Lordships can judge where I put the pressure. I am delighted to know that, as the Report says, the railways are looking at these matters very seriously. In Birmingham, we are very proud of what has been done. Lawley Street is a showplace of which we are very proud, and I hear that the same kind of thing is going on in other directions. Those of us with interests in roads are as anxious as the most enthusiastic railwayman that the railways should get on to a proper basis, for we realise how vital and essential the railways are. We cannot do without there. If they are to fill their proper position in this country, they must be as efficient as possible and must be used to the maximum extent.
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As the noble Lord, Lord Glyn, said, the railways have suffered through having been pioneers. They are not the only ones to suffer. Sometimes I see new industrial areas growing up on the Continent which are clean and fresh in comparison with ours. They started generations after we left off, so of course they can make nice, clean-looking places. They have avoided all the errors, whereas we had to follow a process of trial and error. Our railways are paying the price for having been pioneers, and we should always remember that. It is very heartening to read that the railways are going in for a productivity council. The noble Lord, Lord McCorquodale of Newton, mentioned that the British. Productivity Council has urged them to give further attention to works study. I, too, would emphasise how important that is.
We have a way of thinking that when we have done a job it is finished, though usually it is not; and in that connection let me tell your Lordships a story. In our organisation years ago, we spent a lot of time getting a shop laid out that was thoroughly up to d ate in every direction. Technically it was just right, arid we were proud to show it, with everything working smoothly. There was another shop which we could not seem to get going properly. We were always striking troubles and difficulties there. After a time we brought in a firm of outside consultants who went right through it. At the end, they smiled and said: "The shop of which you are so proud is really very inefficient; the one that you are bothered about is much more efficient." The answer was simple. We were content to feel that we had everything right with the first shop and that it was doing the job, but with the other we were worrying and bothering about it and making changes.
I hope that the railway companies will not think that, when they have done the job, it is therefore finished and they can forget it. They have to keep on as we have to keep on in every other branch of industry, continuously working; otherwise they will fall behind. We have the greatest sympathy with railways in their problems and difficulties, for railways are essential to the rest of industry. Do not run away with the idea that I believe that the roads side will lose anything. It will not. I was delighted to read of the

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up-to-dateness of the British Road Services, with teleprinters and radio, and to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, what they are doing. I am sure it will rejoice the heart of the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, to know that the time he put in and the work that he did is not to be lost, and that we as a nation shall benefit from the organisation that he helped to create.
On one point I would agree with everything that was said by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth: it is no use for the railways to expect to get back a lot of the traffic which has left the railways and gone to the roads. The noble Lord pointed out that a motor factory to-day is not a self-contained unit, but draws supplies from a large number of other ancillary factories and equipment makers. It would be hopeless for them to try to use the railways at a time when models are being changed. A railwayman once came to me and said that he had a container scheme. I said to him: "We must look at the problem. They are making changes, and supplies are running short. The factory is working all day in order to produce the goods; in the evening they are collected. They are loaded on to lorries in the small hours of the morning, and at daybreak the lorries drive away to the main factory, perhaps sixty miles distant, so that the factory there may have supplies when the line is started up at eight o'clock in the morning." It may be said that those circumstances are exceptional, but that is not at all the case. It is because that happens that no great amount of traffic will ever be taken back from the roads. Road transport has become essential. Once in Detroit I was told by the Ford organisation that they had material pouring in all the time, and that if they did not have new supplies from outside they would come to an absolute standstill in twenty minutes. Of course they have their own railway sidings.
Without a steady flow of material, industry, as it is organised to-day, would come to a standstill. That does not mean that we do not want the most efficient railway service we can have. At the same time we need the most efficient road delivery service; and what have we got? I must say something about the roads, otherwise your Lordships will wonder what is the matter with me. Our
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traffic density is the greatest in the world, and this Report points out that until this year only 1·5 per cent. of our total highway expenditure has been devoted to reconstruction. Now we are to have 15 per cent. devoted to that purpose. That is a great improvement, but the Americans are using 62 per cent. of their total expenditure. This Report mentions what was said in relation to road transport by the O.E.E.C, Road Transport Mission, following its visit to the United States in 1954:
"We are certain that much of the increase in American productivity is attributable to the building of an excellent road transport system based on good roads, and we think European Government should pay more attention to the American example in this important matter."
I know that it is easy to preach, and easy to write a paragraph like that; and I have the utmost sympathy with the Minister of Transport in the task which he has inherited. So far as I can remember, the motor industry has never been exactly encouraged by any Government in this country. We started behind scratch, and have been trying to catch up ever since. It was the same with our roads. They were very good for driving coaches on, but they have never been brought up to date. There was always a certain opposition against efforts to get things moving. Now the poor old Minister of Transport, following the line of his successors, is having stones thrown at him; but we shall continue to throw stones for that is the only way to get things done. We must have a more efficient road system.
The noble Lord, Lord Somers, suggested that we might transfer some of the big, heavy loads to the railways. But the railways will not stand it; many bridges are not made for it, nor are the platforms. When I was handling a Government job during the war I had to get a consignment of railway wagons, built in Birmingham, to the coast. Although they were running on the same guage, we had to take down platforms and to load very carefully, because we could not get those railway wagons through stations in this country. When one looks at some of the enormous pieces of machinery moved by road one can see why the railways cannot handle this traffic. I feel, however, that there might be a little more co-ordination.
Two or three times on the Bristol-Gloucester road I have been struck by

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the congestion. I felt, "Why could not some arrangement have been made in advance to facilitate the passage of these big lorries and avoid such road congestion? Could not the police, or some other authority, perhaps by telephoning, have fixed matters so that the loads made a detour instead of holding up traffic for many miles along the main road?" It is no use expecting these heavy loads to be sent by rail. For almost as long as I can remember we have heard the cry: "Get rid of the 20 m.p.h. limit for lorries: it is honoured more in the breach than in the observance." I know that during the time of office of the Labour Government we got Mr. Barnes to agree, but other interests stepped in. We have hopes that at last we are going to get this. It will certainly help to accelerate the speed: at which traffic moves, and will save a great deal of cutting out. On one point I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth: that we do not want any more inquiries. It sometimes seems to me that throughout most of our business lives we have been giving evidence at inquiries. I say: let the men who have to do the job get on with it. I believe that they have the requisite power if they are left alone and are riot interfered with. They should he encouraged, I think, and I reiterate my plea that they should not be interfered with but should be allowed a free hand.
My Lords, I do not think that there is any need to emphasise the importance of this subject. In the Report which we are discussing, mention has been made of some figures given by Mr. Peter Masefield. He is reported as saying that out of a population of 51 million we have some 7,200,000 at work on transport and the manufacture of vehicles for transport. That means one in seven of the population. A more realistic way of looking at it, I think, would be to take first the working population of this country, which is 24 million. If Mr. Masefield's figure as to the numbers employed in the transport and allied industries is correct, it means that one in four of all the people working in this country are directly interested in transport in one form or another. They are interested either in its operation or in the manufacture of its vehicles. That being so, I think we can congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, on having
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initiated this debate and on the contributions which his Motion has elicited from both sides of the House. I hope that people who are in a position to take action will note what has been said in our debate to-day, and that, as a result of some of the statements made in this House, they will move.
6.3 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords as in the case of so many debates in your Lordships' House, this discussion to-day has been conducted with every evidence of great knowledge and great experience. Noble Lords who can speak with great authority upon this subject have taken part in the debate. It is a highly technical, subject and one with regard to which, therefore, I feel some anxiety about replying. Straight away, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Bennett of Edgbaston, for the sympathy which he has expressed with my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport. The Minister has indeed a colossal task to carry out—there is no doubt about that. Anyone can throw a brick at him, but I can assure your Lordships we are grateful to those who make constrictive suggestions as to how the Minister's task can best be carried out. I should also like to thank the House for keeping off the White Paper which was recently published. It is really not much use trying to discuss it until the Minister Ins expressed his intentions about it. He will do that very shortly, and then we shall be only too glad to have a discussion about it.
I should like to add my congratulations to Lord Forbes for introducing this Motion. He has spoken with great knowledge of his subject and I think that he has done two things of very real importance. In the first place, he has emphasised; clearly the importance of the element of freight transport in the whole economy of the country. Secondly, he has dealt with the more technical, and perhaps more difficult, problem of exactly how such a principle should be applied. I think it is desirable that this should be brought out once more. As Lord Ferrers has said, there is nothing we produce into which transport does not enter. I give rather tentatively the figure of 15 per cent. as representing the extent to which transport charges enter into the cost of everything. The noble Lord, Lord

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McCorquodale, referred to the annual expenditure of somewhere about £1,800 millions a year on all forms of transport, which probably represents approximately 15 per cent. of our gross manufacturing costs.
Lord Bennett of Edgbaston referred to the number employed in the industry in one form or another. Transport constitutes a basic cost of production, and I think it is desirable that those who are engaged in it should have that recognised. The immense contribution which they make should be understood and appreciated. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, talked about transport in a rather narrow economic sense as an unproductive industry. I prefer to regard it—and I think that the noble Earl probably really regards it so himself—as a form of conveyor belt in which all those concerned are playing a very important part. I think it is fair to say that we should recognise the contribution which the old London Midland and Scottish Railway Company, under the enlightened leadership of my old friend Sir Ernest Lemon (the value of whose work is recognised by all railwaymen who remember him), made to increasing the efficiency of goods terminals by introducing the more up-to-date mechanisation and other methods resulting in increased productivity. A striking example of this is to be found at the Lawley Street Goods DepÔt, Birmingham. I think that is one of the better examples of this type of development.
In a matter like this, I do not think that a Royal Commission is the best way to accomplish our aim. I believe that most of the things we seek are known fairly well. As Lord McCorquodale has said, the British Productivity Council has sent a team to America and I was very glad to learn from Lord Bennett of Edgbaston how well they had been received and how much Americans had helped in making their work as valuable as possible. The British Railways Productivity Council was set up in 1955, and it has studied problems of this type very thoroughly. Moreover, for many years officers from the British Transport Commission have been visiting the American and Continental Railways to study their new developments.
There was some little controversy as between Lord Lucas of Chilworth and
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Lord Mathers, the basis of which, I think, was the importance which should be attached to the railways. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, used the words: "by curbing the most economic form of transport". I was not quite certain what he meant by that, but I thought he meant that the emphasis should have been more on road transport than on rail transport.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: I referred to curbing the most economic form of transport—whichever that proves to be.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: There, of course, we come positively into some difference. It seems to me that whenever some people try to resolve that problem, they fall back on the word "integration". After listening to that word for nearly ten years, I have come to the conclusion that it represents a form of escapism. When you cannot see a solution to transport problems, you use the word "integration". We have it clearly in our minds that the person who must decide the way to send his goods is the consignor—the trader himself. I say this, with respect, to the noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven. He said he thought that these goods could be classified for the best form of transport. I doubt very much whether it is possible to do that. The only practical way, I think, is to leave it to the trader. Thus we are seeking to promote a movement from the road back to the rail by making rail transport more attractive.
If I may, as a matter of detail, I will correct some figures which have been referred to. It is true, and it was said, I think, by Lord Ferrers, that if you take the weight carried by road, you will find that 72 per cent. was carried. But if you take it as a matter of ton-miles, you will find that it falls to only 37 per cent. So in ton-miles, the railways are still carrying a great deal more than the roads. We are trying to bring back more traffic to the railways because we think it is important. We are trying to do this by providing a better service. In the first place, we are fitting continuous brakes to goods wagons. We hope that a result of this will be to raise the average speed of goods trains from the present ten miles per hour to forty-five miles per hour. That means a tremendous difference in the speed at which goods can be reliably delivered.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, when will that be?
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I am not sure when it will be completed, but it is corning in now. I admit to my noble friend Lord Stonehaven that there are still a few coming through the pipeline which are without modern braking, but there are already some goods trains of that character and the changeover is taking place steadily. Another point, which goes with that, is the quicker turn-round of wagons. I must emphasise that there must be a float of wagons of some kind, but I think it is probably fair to say that the present demurrage rate is not high enough arid should be a good deal higher than it is. In any case, this will be helped to some extent by quicker movement and better marshalling yards. The intention is to close about 150 yards at present in use and to open fifty-five new ones. The noble Lord, Lord Forbes, referred to electronic equipment. I do not know whether he has seen an installation of that character at the Thornton marshalling yards in Fife, but there they have a system of that character which has the advantages he emphasised, such as being usable in all kinds of weather and being without the bumping and banging which is so often seen in shunting yards. In that respect I would also mention that seventy-fix e new freight terminals are already in use and another 250 are planned.
A good deal of emphasis has properly been placed by the noble Lords, Lord Burden, Lord Glyn and Lord Bennett of Edgbaston, on pallets and containers. We are making a good deal of progress in that respect. There are about double the number of containers in operation this year than there was before the war, and they are increasing at the rate of about 5.000 a year. These include, I am told, special containers for bicycles, typewriters and building materials, and some are ventilated and insulated. I would also refer to the new container on its own wheels called the D.A.F. which enables it to be rolled straight from a road vehicle on to the railway. This type has come in from Holland and I am told that it is a great improvement. I have some photographs of it here, if any of your Lordships wishes to see it afterwards.
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We also recognise the value of articulated trucks, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, and trucks with semi-trailers. A good deal has been said about the piggy-back "method, and on the whole I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Glyn, said on this point. It is in use in car-sleeper trains between London and Scotland, Exeter, Dover and elsewhere and also for transporting road trailers carrying beer, milk, glucose and herring oil, and, for some reason. Loch Katrine water, which is carried piggy-back" from Glasgow to London. The difficulty is that the load gauges in this country are riot nearly so suitable for that type of development as they are in the United States of America. The noble Lord, Lord Forbes, emphasised the point of bringing the vehicle down on to its own axle. I would merely say that British Railways are aware of this procedure. I am afraid that I cannot say at the present time whether it really constitute a new step forward, but the point is one which they have considered and which they would be happy to encourage if it seemed a useful development.
I would also mention the question of damage, to which noble Lords referred. Of course, this will be greatly reduced by proper brakes and smoother movement at freight terminals, but recent figures are encouraging. For instance, between 1950 and 1955 there was a reduction of 17 per cent. in the claims paid by British Railways in respect of goods damaged in transit, and there w as a further reduction of 12 per cent. in the first nine months of this year.
I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, said in regard to docks. Many of them are old and rather cramped and their lay-out would be better if they were on completely new lines, but I think it is proper to recognise that with roughly the same dock labour force we are handling 50 per cent. more imports and twice as much exports as before the war, which I think shows beyond any doubt that there has been a considerable increase in the efficiency of our docks over the last fifteen years. Of course, there is congestion, and it is true that there is a tendency to use lorries more than railways. This point is being met. I am glad that the noble Lord. Lord Glyn, referred to the Green Arrow

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Service, which is intended to give a guaranteed delivery date at the docks of full wagon loads. I believe that this is serving a useful purpose. In fairness to the Commission, I should say that they have already spent nearly £11 million in improving the docks and propose to spend another £7 million.
It is common in your Lordships' House to examine the width, the breadth and the size of vehicles on the road, and we have had quite a number of discussions on the point. The real answer is that almost whenever you get down to the details of any case, it is very difficult to find an alternative way of moving the particular item. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, referred to a propeller on the road. I do not know its dimensions but 1 suspect that it was one which could not have been put on the railway and which required immediate delivery to a ship. I do not know, but in almost every case where we have come to examine it, this proved to be the only way of doing an essential economic task.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, perhaps the noble Earl would agree with me, at least, that the ship which was transported by road from Hull to Dagenham could have gone by sea.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: I almost always believe all the stories I hear from the noble Lord, but if the noble Lord wishes, I will make some inquiries about this one.
I would turn shortly to the question of roads, but I will not keep your Lordships too long because I think you would like to discuss this question at greater length some other time. It is easy to put more emphasis on this side or on that side of the transport problem. What we have to remember is that the road programme only started less than three years ago and previous to that nothing had been done for fifteen years. We have tried to meet what have seemed to us to be the most urgent cases. It is not correct for the noble Lord, Lord Somers, to say that we are doing nothing. More than 1,500 separate improvements of a major character have been started since April, 1955, not including minor improvements and road maintenance, and these are going forward at the present time. I know that the results of this work will not be seen
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for a little time, but by March of next year there will be committed on major improvements over £80 million, so that it is fair to say that a start has been made. I would say a word about urban motorways. Of course, these are very fine, but they are by far and away the most expensive form of road. The Cromwell Road extension, which I suppose would barely be classified as an urban motorway, cost about £1 million a mile. The A ring road project for London would have cost £130 million for eleven miles.
The noble Lord, Lord Somers, made a strong appeal for the canals. I can only say to him that I find it hard to justify maintaining the canals unless they really serve an economic purpose. The Transport Commission have already stated those which they are prepared to maintain. They are going ahead spending a considerable amount, something like £5 million or more, on improving those parts of the canal system which are worth while. The real answer is that the bulk of our canals are too narrow for the large type of barge which enables economic operations by barges to be carried out on the Continent. If anyone can find a way of using the canals so that they would not be a dead loss to the British Transport Commission, there is at present sitting an independent Committee to examine the most economic use of the canal system, and they would be delighted to have evidence of how these canals could be employed.
LORD BURDEN: Holiday cruises.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: The noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, talked about tank landing craft. It so happens that I had experience of trying to use a D.U.K.W. on the west coast of Scotland, and I can tell him that one difficulty is that in most channels up there the tide goes too fast for a D.U.K.W. at sea. None the less, any suggestion of that sort is welcome, and it may be possible to make use of it in some places.
The noble Lord, Lord Gifford, raised a number of points in regard to freight traffic by air. I am glad that he has raised those points. I am given to understand that the question of complex documentation is well known and that discussions have been proceeding to see if these requirements can be simplified. On freight traffic by air, I would add only

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this. I do not think there is a great need for freight air traffic in this country, although I notice that there has been a substantial increase in the freight traffic carried by the independent airways in the last two years, and also an increase in the freight traffic of British European Airways during that period. However, I should have thought that the use of air freight overseas, carrying important machinery and things of that sort, is a service that is likely to increase and indeed is, I believe, increasing substantially.
I am afraid that this is a technical subject, and it is difficult, in debate, to answer some of the quite unexceptionable and sound statements which the noble Lord, Lord Forbes, has made as to the development that we need. However, it is expensive. In recent years, when we have been able to undertake modernisation of the railways, we have taken steps which are of great importance, and which will, I hope, leave a lasting mark on an improved transport system. May I conclude by echoing what the noble Lord, Lord Glyn, said: that if we are to make the best use of our facilities, it is important that the closest liaison should
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exist between the users and the manufacturers, on the one side, and between the customers and the transport organisations on the other. That, indeed, is fully emphasised in the Productivity Report. I thank noble Lords for having taken part in the debate, and I assure them that what they have said will he carefully examined.
6.24 p.m.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, for the comprehensive reply he has given. I only hope that his words will soon lead to deeds. If we want to see freight movement working at its best, undoubtedly we have to turn to the British Fighting Services during war-time. However, I am not advocating another war so that we may learn how to move freight. I should like to thank all noble Lords on both sides of the House who have so ably supported this debate. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past six o'clock.