Sitting of 23 July 1956

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Office, Stoke Newington
    Mr. Weitzmanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance why, despite promises, a National Assistance Board office has not yet been provided in the borough of Stoke Newington; and when he proposes to provide the same.
    The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): I am informed by the National Assistance Board that it considers it desirable to provide an office in Stoke Newington but has not so far been successful in its
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    efforts to find suitable premises. No promise, however, as suggested in the Question, has been given that an office would be opened by any particular time, nor is it possible to do so.
    Mr. Weitzman: Is the Minister aware that this matter was raised nearly four years ago and that various offers of premises were made by the borough council in order to assist the Board? Does he appreciate that this is a matter of the greatest possible urgency, because it entails long and expensive journeys by Stoke Newington residents who are in need?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The National Assistance Board recognises that it would be desirable to provide an office there, but it has so far not found or been offered suitable accommodation. But the hon. and learned Member will be reassured to know that the ordinary personal inquiry work is being undertaken by my Department's own office at 191, Stoke Newington High Street; and, of course, in any event, a good deal of National Assistance work can be, and is. carried out by post.
    Mr. Weitzman: Is the Minister aware that the present arrangement is entirely unsatisfactory and that there is a very great need for this office, which, I am told, has been repeatedly promised in the past?
    In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answer, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Local Committees (Ex-Service Men's Organisations)
    Mr. Simmonsasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will take steps to co-opt representatives of the British Legion, British Limbless Ex-Servicemen's Association and other representative ex-Service organisations on to the local committees set up under the National Insurance Act.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In accordance with the provisions of the National Insurance Act, 1946, members of these committees are appointed as representing employers and insured persons and there is no provision for the appointment of members specifically representing ex-Service organisations. While, however, the majority of the members are appointed on the nomination of organisations of employers and employed persons, local branches of other organisations, including those mentioned in the Question, can also put forward names for consideration.
    Mr. Simmons: Should not the Minister move with the times? After all, the fact is that one of the arguments used when the Ministries were merged was that these committees would be available for the ex-Service man. Could he not look at the constitution of the committees in order to see whether it could be altered to bring ex-Service men on to them?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I do not think that has anything to do with the merger, because, of course, the war pensions committees—with which, I know, the hon. Gentleman is very familiar—are still very much alive and functioning. So far as these committees are concerned, the broad provision is made, of course, by Statute.

    Economies
    Mr. G. Jegerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what economies he proposes to effect in the administration of his Department.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am concentrating the issue of pension books for National Insurance pensioners in Scotland and Wales with the issue of those for England at Newcastle, thus permitting of a higher degree of mechanisation of this work. I am also concentrating the work of some of my local offices into larger units. In general, there is a constant
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    search for administrative economies throughout the Department wherever they can be achieved without impairing the Department's service to the public.
    Mr. Jeger: While, of course, welcoming any administrative economies which can be effected anywhere, may I ask whether it would be possible for the Minister to review carefully the complaints which he has received, particularly those from my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) about the inaccessibility of several of the remoter offices, and will he ensure that where there happens to be a large number of people requiring the services of his Department they will not be denied a local office?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I will always consider any suggestion which is put forward, but I am bound to say that the proposal of the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North relates to the National Assistance Board and not to my Department, and relates to an increase in expenditure and not to economies.
    Mr. Steele: Does the latter part of the Minister's original Answer in connection with the concentration of work in some of the larger offices mean the closing down or making into caller stations of some of the outlying offices?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It means that for some of the outlying offices caller offices will be substituted.

    Members (British Legion Circular)
    Mr. Jegerasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what changes he has made in the administrative arrangements of his Department for dealing with approaches by Members of Parliament on pensions cases brought to their notice; and what arrangements there are for liaison with the British Legion.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No changes have been made or are contemplated. My hon. Friend and I are, and remain, at the disposal of hon. Members with respect to these cases. Our contacts with the British Legion similarly remain excellent, and from our point of view most helpful.
    Mr. Jeger: Can the Minister explain why the British Legion has sent to hon. Members a long circular, highly impertinent in tone, attempting to interpose itself

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    and its services between hon. Members and the right hon. Gentleman's Department?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It is not for me to answer questions as to circulars sent by the British Legion. Having seen the document which I think the hon. Member has in mind, however, it seems to me to be purely intended to be helpful and to enable the Legion, which has assisted many hon. Members, as I know from my own experience, to give assistance in the future.
    Sir I. Fraser: Is my right hon. Friend aware that 120 Members of all parties have welcomed the circular?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I did not know the figure but it does not surprise me, because I know very well that the Legion does a great deal about this subject and can be extremely helpful in individual cases.

    Assistance Rates (Married Couples)
    Mr. McKayasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance the percentage increase given to a married couple when the National Assistance rates were raised on 18th November, 1955.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The current scale came into effect on 23rd January, 1956. For a married couple it provided an increase of 6·3 per cent. over the previous rate.
    Mr. McKay: Is the Minister aware that the cost of living has gone up by 9 per cent. since he gave the last increase to pensioners? Is it not time, therefore, to raise the aged people's pensions?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As far as I understood the hon. Member's supplementary question, it related to pensioners. The Question relates to Assistance payments. As far as they are concerned, the figure I gave was of an increase of 6·3 per cent., since when the cost of living has moved by 2 per cent.

    Ex-Prisoners of War, Japan (Payments)
    Sir I. Fraserasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he can now make a statement as to the reasons for the delay in making a further
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    payment to Far Eastern prisoners of war from the Japanese assets.
    Major Beamishasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he is aware of the disappointment of ex-prisoners of the Japanese and their next of kin at the long delay that has occurred in the distribution on a per capita basis of the money available under Article 16 of the Japanese Peace Treaty; when the British claim was submitted to the International Red Cross; when it was agreed; and on what basis he hopes to make this further distribution.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I share my hon. Friends' concern about this delay. As my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary told my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth) on 15th June, the Peace Treaty provided that the International Committee of the Red Cross should distribute the money to the countries concerned. I understand that that Committee has had some difficulty—which is understandable—in checking the lists put in by certain countries, and that we are unlikely to receive the money due to us for several months. We will distribute the money as quickly as possible when wet get it.
    My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary is drawing the attention of the International Committee to our desire to seek a speedy conclusion of this matter.
    Sir I. Fraser: Is it, therefore, clear that the delay is due not to the Ministry but to international affairs? Will my right hon. Friend ask his right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary to bring pressure to bear upon the International Red Cross so that if there are countries which cannot make up their minds who were ex-Service men and who were not, they may be urged to make a settlement, because thousands of men are waiting for the money?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: My hon. Friend is quite right inasmuch as we have not yet received the money and, therefore, cannot distribute it. As regards the last part of his supplementary question, the phrase I used was that, "My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary is drawing the attention of the International Committee to our desire.…" That is possibly a more decorous way to phrase it.
    Major Beamish: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable disappointment at the delays which have occurred in the distribution of the money under Article 16, but that this is tempered to a large extent by the fact that the sums, when paid, will be substanial? Is my right hon. Friend aware of the widespread feeling that the Government have done their very best in this problem and have shown considerable understanding?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I share my hon. and gallant Friend's disappointment that we have not yet been able to get this money. Certainly, as soon as we get it we will distribute it. It has been overdue for some time.
    Mr. Marquand: Have the Government not considered the possibility of themselves making payments in advance? Why should not the Government take up this balance, since the delay is not due in any way to the pensioners themselves?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The understanding was that it was to be these Japanese assets which were used for this particular and specific purpose relating solely to Far East prisoners of war. Until the International Committee has finished its work, we shall not know precisely how much we are to get.
    Major Beamishasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance the total amount distributed on a per capita basis to ex-prisoners of the Japanese or their next of kin under Article 14 of the Japanese Peace Treaty; what sums were given to charitable organisations to give extra help to the most deserving cases; how much of the Article 14 money remains available for distribution; and on what basis, and when, he hopes to distribute this small sum.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: A total of about £2,645,000 has been distributed on a per capita basis in respect of ex-prisoners of war and civilian internees of the Japanese. In addition, £27,000 has been divided between the King's Fund, the Far Eastern Prisoners of War Central Welfare Fund, and the Returned British Prisoners of War Association. A sum of about £200,000 remains. Arrangements for its distribution have so far awaited further information as to when we are likely to receive the money due to us under Article 16.

    War Pensions (Information)
    Mr. J. Hyndasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what steps have been taken to ensure that disabled ex-Service men are fully acquainted with their entitlements under the pensions schemes.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: A leaflet setting out the various entitlements is sent with each notification of a first award of war disablement pension. In 1948 and 1952 special leaflets, with up-to-date information, were sent to all disablement pensioners of both world wars inquiring whether they were sure they were receiving all the allowances to which they were entitled. Following discussion with my Central Advisory Committee earlier this year, I am proposing to send to all pensioners a letter enclosing up-to-date particulars of what is now available under the war pensions provisions.
    Mr. Hynd: Do I take it, therefore, that the Minister refutes the accusation by the secretary of the British Limbless Ex-Servicemen's Association that the Ministry has done nothing to bring these entitlements to the notice of ex-Service men? In view of the fact that the general secretary of that organisation explained recently that it had discovered hundreds of cases of ex-Service men who were not receiving their full entitlements, can the Minister tell the House whether the association has drawn those cases to the notice of his Department and that they are being dealt with?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: It is our desire that every war pensioner should know what he is entitled to. The steps I outlined in my main Answer indicate how, under successive Ministers, this has been done. I would not say that as a result of that every war pensioner necessarily will know every detail of these somewhat complex provisions. For that reason, ex-Service organisations can play a very useful part in bringing individual cases to light. If they refer with justifiable pride to cases which they have succeeded in bringing to light, I am sure that they are perfectly entitled to do so.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Is there not a difficulty with those who have not received a pension? Are steps being taken to acquaint men leaving the Forces with their rights under the Acts governing pensions?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As the documents that go to a man prior to demobilisation are the responsibility of my right hon. Friends of the Service Departments, I would prefer not to answer a question about that off the cuff, although I think that the fact that pensions are paid for war disabilities is fairly widely known in the Forces.

  ELECTRICITY

    Generation and District Heating Schemes
    Mr. Albuasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will set up a committee to inquire into the economic possibilities of combined electricity generation and district heating by the use of small power stations sited near large new housing estates or new towns.
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Aubrey Jones): No, Sir. Progress in this field is not limited by lack of knowledge but by the high cost to the consumer even in areas where there is a concentrated demand for heat as well as electricity.
    Mr. Albu: Is the Minister aware that the economics of separate electricity generation and district heating schemes are very different from those of combined schemes using back-pressure steam? Is he not aware that we are much behind other European countries in trying out schemes of this kind, which are extremely saving of fuel?
    Mr. Jones: I am aware that the economics of this matter are rather complicated. The fact remains that, rightly or wrongly, we in this country have gone in for large power stations, with consequent low operating costs. That means, however, that if we attempt to distribute the heat, the consequent distributing costs are all the higher; and this increase is more than can be offset by the reduced operating costs at these large stations.

    Nuclear Power Station, Berkeley
    Captain Corfieldasked the Minister of Fuel and Power the present position with regard to the giving or withholding of consent for the building of a nuclear power station at Berkeley in Gloucestershire; whether he is aware that steps have already been taken to construct the approach road and water supply; and on
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    what date formal approval was given for these initial proceedings.
    Mr. Aubrey Jones: My consent to the Berkeley Power Station was given on 18th July. I am aware that the Central Electricity Authority had, on its own initiative, already made arrangements with the highway authority to improve the road to the site and with the water undertakers to provide the site with adequate water. I understand that, in making these arrangements, which did not require approval by Her Majesty's Government, the Authority took the view that the need to bring the new power station into operation at the earliest possible moment justified it running the risk that I might refuse my consent to the station.

    Lord Citrine (Speech)
    Mr. Holtasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, in view of Lord Citrine's support in his official capacity for certain restrictive trade practices, and his inability thereby to safeguard the interests of the Central Electricity Authority and the users of electricity, if he will terminate his appointment as chairman of the Central Electricity Authority.
    Mr. Aubrey Jones: I assume that the hon. Member refers to the speech which Lord Citrine made recently at a study conference, all the speakers at which spoke as private individuals rather than in their official capacity, and were enjoined by the chair to be provocative, and even heretical. I am satisfied that Lord Citrine's response to this injunction will in no way bear the interpretation that he is unfitted to safeguard the interests of the Central Electricity Authority.
    Mr. Holt: Has the Minister inquired whether the views that Lord Citrine expressed are the official views and policy of the Authority of which he is the chairman, because that was certainly the indication given to those who heard the speech and reported it? If that is so, does the Minister not feel any alarm that a nationalised industry spending huge sums of money should not be at all concerned about level tendering?
    Mr. Jones: I think the best way of settling this matter is to see exactly what Lord Citrine said, and if the hon. Gentleman will bear with me I will give two

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    quotations from his speech. The first is this:
    "It is very interesting to me, when we ask for tenders, to find that on orders involving, perhaps, £600,000 or £700,000, the estimating is so accurate on the part of each firm that we get a tender even to the shillings and pence which is identical."
    He added, with an obvious twinkle in his eyes:
    "I have a very high regard for the mathematicians who can bring about that result."
    He went on:
    "I do not want it to be assumed I regard this as necessarily wrong."
    That is no more nor less than what the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill says. Lord Citrine continued:
    "The real question is, are the prices they fix fair prices, and that does involve, it seems to me, some investigation of their costs."
    He went on to explain that that could be consonant with the privacy of firms, and he ended by saying:
    "That means employing an instrument … whereby assurance can be given."
    I put it to the hon. Gentleman that those words do not indicate any disregard of or any indifference to the interests of the C.E.A.
    Mr. Nabarro: Would my right hon. Friend apply himself to the fact that it is the declared policy of the Government to curb monopoly and to smash price rings? If that be the case, whether Lord Citrine was speaking in a personal capacity or in his capacity as chairman of the Central Electricity Authority, surely what he said is absolutely inimical to the objectives of my right hon. Friends?
    Mr. Jones: The declared policy of the Government about price rings is enshrined in the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill. The words which I have quoted from Lord Citrine's speech are entirely consistent with the Bill. In other words, level tendering or collusion may be justifiable in certain cases carefully set out in Clause 16 of the Bill. This is no more and no less than that.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Liberal Party professes to have a high regard for individual liberty, and that all that Lord Citrine has done is to express a personal opinion? Is he also aware that Lord Citrine has rendered better service to the
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    community than the whole of the Liberal Party put together?
    Mr. Speaker: I think we have heard quite enough on this Question.
    Mr. Nabarro: The right hon. Gentleman is all frozen up, as usual.

    Restrictive Trade Practices
    Mr. Holtasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware of the existence of restrictive trade practices in the nationalised industries for which he is responsible; and if he will give a general direction to those industries to assist the Government in its policy of bringing to an end restrictive trade practices which are against the public interest.
    Mr. Aubrey Jones: In so far as the nationalised industries enter into restrictive agreements, they will be subject, like other industries, to the provisions of the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill except, of course, in the case of agreements expressly authorised by statute. In these circumstances, I do not think that the question of issuing a general direction arises.
    Mr. Holt: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Liberal Party has no objection whatever to people expressing their opinions but is concerned when the implication is the carrying out in a nationalised industry of a policy which is quite contrary to the avowed policy of the Government, and does he not agree that this kind of thing is a subject on which a general direction should be given? If he does not agree on this or on detailed control, would he say exactly what control he is having over nationalised industries?
    Mr. Jones: As a non-Liberal but as a member of the Government, I would dispute the implication of the hon. Gentleman.

    Capital Investment
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what sum he has authorised to the Central Electricity Authority, including all area boards, for capital investment during 1956; and when giving such authorisation what regard he had to the effect on their estimate of the practice of level price tendering by the

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    authority's contractors offering supplies of plant and equipment, and soliciting building contracts.
    Mr. Aubrey Jones: The investment programme of the Central Electricity Authority for the financial year 1956–57 was authorised at £195 million. It is the task of the Authority to ensure that the resources made available to it are used to the best possible advantage.
    Mr. Nabarro: As it is the policy of the Government to curb monopoly, may I ask my right hon. Friend what steps he took, when authorising this huge figure of £195 million, to ascertain what part of it was subject to these level price tendering practices which most of my hon. Friends and I regard as so offensive?
    Mr. Jones: I would refer my hon. Friend to a comparison of the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill and Lord Citrine's speech, and I will challenge him—
    Mr. Nabarro: I am very flattered, I am sure.
    Mr. Jones:—to find any essential difference. For the rest, certainly I did not put this question to the Central Electricity Authority, and to put to it a detailed question of the kind asked by my hon. Friend would, it seems to me, be inconsistent with the broad supervision which a Minister ought to exercise and with the sense of responsibility which he ought to endeavour to inculcate in a nationalised board. Naturally, in making these capital allocations, I had a look at the trend of capital costs in the nationalised industries concerned. It is a fact that the trend of capital costs in the electricity supply industry is lower than the trend of costs in general and of capital costs in general.
    Mr. Nabarro: A very poor answer, if I may say so.

    Prices (Stabilisation)
    Mr. Palmerasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what estimate he has made of the effect which the policy of an electricity price standstill, announced by the Central Electricity Authority in response to the Government appeal, will have on the financial stability of the area electricity boards; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Aubrey Jones: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which was given on 26th June by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. J. Paton).
    Mr. Palmer: Bearing in mind that reply, is it not a fact that a number of the area electricity boards will be forced to have an adverse financial balance as a result of this policy? Is it wise or fair that hitherto prosperous national undertakings may be forced into a bankrupt position by pressure from above?
    Mr. Jones: It is a fact that individual boards will be involved in deficits, but it would be quite wrong to suggest that these deficits were enforced by influence from above. Despite the widespread impression to the contrary, this action on the part of the Central Electricity Authority was entirely on its own initiative and was not the result of any prompting or suggestion by me or by the Government. What it did is compatible with statutory requirement, which is not that individual boards should be in balance but that the gross revenues of the undertaking as a whole should match its gross outgoings.

  COAL

    Opencast Mining, Gawthorpe
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what reply he has sent to protests against the proposal to develop opencast mining at Gawthorpe.
    Mr. Aubrey Jones: As I told the hon. Lady in a recent letter, I recognise the strong objections to the working of the Gawthorpe Hall opencast site but, as the site contains 1 million tons of coal, I have decided that it must be worked. My authorisation to the National Coal Board is subject to stringent conditions designed to ensure the safety of Gawthorpe Hall itself, minimise the damage to other amenities, and secure early and careful restoration.
    Mrs. Castle: In view of the fact that the Minister himself has admitted, in the letter which he has sent me, that this scheme will involve blasting operations very near to Gawthorpe Hall, which contains valuable plaster and glasswork, and that it will mean the felling of trees and the diversion of the River Calder, all of

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    which will help to devastate an area which has very few amenities, will he not look at this matter again?
    Mr. Jones: Due precautions are being taken to ensure that the blasting does not affect the hall. The fact with which I am confronted is that the demand for coal is high. The deep-mined output is insufficient to meet the demand. I am, there-force, left with very limited freedom of choice, but, within that limited freedom, I have taken all the precautions that seem to me practicable to ensure the safety of the Hall and the least possible destruction of the amenities.
    Mr. Fort: Has my right hon. Friend made this clear to Padiham Urban District Council, which has represented to him the strong feelings felt in Padiham about it? What reactions has my right hon. Friend had to his explanation?
    Mr. Jones: The conditions which I mentioned to the House have certainly been conveyed to the local council. I am not as yet aware of any response from the council.

    African Resources (Investigation)
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what further steps he has now taken to inquire into British African coal resources with a view to meeting Britain's coal import requirements.
    Mr. Aubrey Jones: This is a question which concerns other Departments besides my own, and it has been arranged that there shall be an inter-Departmental investigation of the issues involved so far as the United Kingdom is concerned.
    Mr. Nabarro: Yes, it may be an inter-Departmental question, but it is also a very important one, and can my right hon. Friend say when he hopes to publish this report? In what form will it be published? Shall we all have an opportunity to scrutinise my right hon. Friend's views in the matter?
    Mr. Jones: My hon. Friend will, in due course, have my decisions on the conclusions reached by the inter-Departmental investigation and of my reasons for reaching them.

    Supplies
    Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he will make a statement upon prospects for next winter's coal supplies with special reference to householders' needs.
    Mr. Aubrey Jones: The present stock position is favourable, total distributed stocks being 18 million tons as against 14 million tons at this time last year. These high stocks, however, are largely the result of imports on a scale which we cannot afford to repeat. To reduce this dependence on imports and see us safely through the winter we need to increase home production and, in particular, to minimise losses through absenteeism and disputes. To ease the task of producers and distributors in coping with the uncertainties of winter, I would urge all householders who can to lay in stocks during the remainder of the summer, when they have the advantage of lower prices.
    Mr. Nabarro: While congratulating my right hon. Friend upon the able administration which has produced this higher stock figure this year, may I ask him to consider the position of householders who are still doomed to a mere pittance of 34 cwt. of house coal per annum in the south of England and only 50 cwt. in the North of England? In view of the satisfactory stock position, why should not the householders have a little more coal this winter?
    Hon. Members: They cannot afford it.
    Mr. Jones: I do not consider that my answer lends itself to the complacency which my hon. Friend reads into it. My Answer, I hope, made it clear that the high stocks have been purchased at extremely heavy cost in the shape of foreign exchange. I cannot risk a repetition of such a high cost.

    Carbonisation Plants
    Mr. Nealasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will give a general direction in the national interest to area gas boards to accept surplus gas from the carbonisation plants of the National Coal Board.
    Mr. Aubrey Jones: I am satisfied that there is already sufficiently close and continuous consultation between area gas

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    boards and the National Coal Board to ensure the maximum possible use of gas made at the National Coal Board's carbonisation plants.
    Mr. Neal: What kind of muddle is the Minister attempting to justify? Is he aware that last week the East Midlands Gas Board, in defiance of the price freeze, announced increases of prices and, on the very same day, the carbonisation officer of the National Coal Board announced that £120,000 worth of gas was being turned to waste because the East Midlands Gas Board would not accept it?
    Mr. Jones: I am not justifying any muddle. What has happened in the East Midlands is the teething trouble which often arises when a new plant is started. Even so, with this teething trouble, the amount of gas lost in the months of May and June in the East Midlands area was 4½ per cent. of the total gas supplied by the National Coal Board in that area and less than 1 per cent. of the Board's average sale in the summer.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    B.O.A.C. (Aircraft)
    Mr. Hunterasked the Minister of Supply whether he is satisfied with the methods of co-operation that exist between his Department and the aircraft manufacturers in this country in providing aircraft for the British Overseas Airways Corporation; and if he will make a statement.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. F. J. Erroll): My right hon. Friend is satisfied that there is good co-operation in these matters, but he always welcomes suggestions for improvements.
    Mr. Hunter: Is the Minister aware that there is great disappointment in the aircraft industry at the fact that B.O.A.C. is being forced to buy American yet airliners, whereas if there had been greater co-operation between the Ministry of Supply and aircraft manufacturers the airliners could have been made in this country?
    Mr. Enroll: B.O.A.C. is already buying a number of British aircraft, both
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    Britannias and Comets, and it is too early to anticipate the result of the recent visit to America by executives of B.O.A.C.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Will my hon. Friend say when B.O.A.C. last placed an order for a large type of aircraft to meet its requirements? Is it not a fact that the V.1000 did not have the blessing of B.O.A.C. and that aircraft cannot be produced unless they are ordered?
    Mr. Erroll: I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend that requirements must be stated in good time if they are to be fulfilled by the British aircraft industry.

  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Foot-and-Mouth Disease
    Mr. Crouchasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the number of single outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease and the number of outbreaks at five or more farms in the same area, during the last twelve months; and the number in each group in the same period three years earlier.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): There were nine primary outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease during the twelve months July, 1955, to June, 1956, and 27 during the corresponding period three years earlier. In no infected area were there outbreaks at five or more farms between July, 1955, and June, 1956. In 1952–53, there were five, but the size of an infected area then was larger than it is now.
    Mr. Crouch: Does my hon. Friend ascribe the diminution of the primary outbreaks to myxomatosis amongst rabbits? Does he think that rabbits spread foot-and-mouth disease and that it is as a result of having fewer rabbits that we have fortunately had such a small number of outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease?
    Mr. Nugent: No, Sir. All the evidence is that myxomatosis affects only rabbits and, very occasionally, hares.

    Glasshouses (Costs)
    Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give the cost of erecting one acre of glasshouses for each year since

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    1938; and what steps he is taking to implement a policy for providing cheaper glass for horticultural purposes.
    Mr. Nugent: I regret that yearly figures are not available. It is estimated that the cost of timber-framed glasshouses without heating equipment was about £2,500 an acre in 1938, and is now about £8,500. The cost of glass for horticultural purposes does not appear to have risen in the same proportion, and there seems no reason for intervention.
    Mr. Davies: Will the Minister answer directly how much it now costs, at the present price of timber and glass? Will he look at the document, produced by his own party, entitled "All the Answers"? Is it not a fact that his party at the last Election deprecated the fact that greenhouses cost £12,000 per acre and that horticulturists were unable to enter the industry because of the terrific price of glass? What is the Minister doing to produce cheaper glass?
    Mr. Nugent: The best answer is that in 1938 there were 2,770 acres of glasshouses in the country and in 1956 there were 4,571 acres.
    Mr. Paget: What is happening about the development of cheap plastic substitutes? There were some promising experiments.
    Mr. Nugent: I am afraid that I cannot answer that question. The hon. and learned Member should place a Question on the Order Paper to one of my right hon. Friends.

    Land
    Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many acres of farm land are unavailable for farming because they are occupied by derelict sites of the Fighting Services.
    Mr. Nugent: I regret that this information is not available.
    Mr. Davies: If it is not available to the House, how is it that the Minister's own party could give the acreage in the document "All the Answers" during the last Election? If the Conservative Party, for personal party propaganda, could put forward fictitious figures at the General Election, can we not now, when the party is in power, have accurate figures?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Speaker: I do not think the Minister is responsible for the figures that were quoted.
    Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food at what rate of acreage per year Britain is losing agricultural land for development; and what acreage of farm land is now used for building or other uses of the Fighting Services.
    Mr. Nugent: Precise figures of the loss of agricultural land are not available. The only information is by inference from the agricultural returns which are collected for other purposes and which exclude holdings of one acre or less and those parts of agricultural holdings not used for agricultural production. Subject to these reservations, the agricultural returns suggest that agricultural land in England and Wales has been lost to building development, mineral working and sports grounds at an average rate of about 37,000 acres a year over the last five years. As regards the last part of the Question, I regret that statistics are not available.
    Mr. Davies: Whilst thanking the Minister for that answer, may I ask whether he realises that the document "All the Answers" used at the General Election gave a figure of 50,000 acres? Can we have some really accurate figures? Now that we are embarking upon a disarmament programme, will the Minister fight harder on behalf of the small farmer to prevent his land being retained as derelict sites, as it is in my constituency and in others at present?
    Mr. Nugent: I can assure the hon. Member that the information which I have given him in this answer is correct.

    National Farmers' Union (Minister's Letter)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food why he asked the National Farmers' Union to forward his views on agricultural wages to the farmers in Scotland.
    Mr. Nugent: My right hon. Friend has not expressed any views on agricultural wages. The letter he sent to the President of the National Farmers' Union dealt with agricultural prices, which is a matter

    21
    of common concern to the three farmers' unions in the United Kingdom. It referred to previous correspondence between my right hon. Friend and the President writing on behalf of the three farmers' unions.
    Mr. Hughes: Since when has the Minister been responsible for agricultural conditions in Scotland? Is he aware that the Secretary of State for Scotland would not dream of issuing such an indiscreet letter to the farmers of Scotland, and does he not think that he ought to apologise both to the Scottish farmers and to the Secretary of State for Scotland for issuing such a reactionary circular?
    Mr. Nugent: I think that my right hon. Friend has nothing to apologise for in the matter. His letter was a plain statement to the President of the National Farmers' Union of what might be the effect on agricultural prices, which would be a matter of general concern to the farmers in Scotland as well as to the farmers in England and Wales.
    Mr. Willey: May I say a word for England? In view of the harmful effect this letter has already had, and in view of the harmful effects it is likely to cause to industrial relations in the agricultural industry, will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary advise his right hon. Friend to withdraw the letter as soon as possible?
    An Hon. Member: What about Wales?
    Mr. Nugent: I cannot agree that this letter has had harmful effects. It is a perfectly straightforward, honest statement, and it leaves the three farmers' unions in no doubt where they stand in the matter.
    Miss Herbison: If his right hon. Friend has nothing to apologise for about the letter, would the Minister not agree that his right hon. Friend certainly has something to apologise for when he interferes with the work of another Minister, since his right hon. Friend has nothing whatever to do with Scottish agriculture?
    Mr. Nugent: No, Sir. I think that my answer explained the point. The guaranteed prices for farm products affects the farmers in Scotland just as much as they do the farmers in England.

  HOSPITAL

    West Heath Hospital, Birmingham (Kitchen Block)
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Minister of Health what special conditions he attached to his permission for the erection of a new kitchen block at West Heath Hospital, Birmingham; and when he anticipates that erection will begin.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Patricia Hornsby-Smith): My right hon. Friend has asked the regional hospital board to seek to reduce the cost substantially below the estimate they made to him. In answer to the second part of the Question, I am unable to add to the reply I gave the hon. Member on 4th June.
    Mr. Chapman: Is this not rather urgent? Is the Parliamentary Secretary not aware that the hospital is right on the edge of the city and that it cannot provide canteen facilities for visitors out there until it gets this new block? Will she, therefore, do her best to prevent anything being put in the way of something speedy being done.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: There is no controversy between us on the need for this building. However, the original estimates were extravagant ones and, if we allow an extravagant scheme in one area, we deprive another area of something which it should have. The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that authority to invite tenders was given on 26th May.

    Consultants Merit Awards
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Minister of Health what considerations are taken into account in the selection of consultants for merit awards; and whether there is a lower age limit.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. R. H. Turton): Selection is on the advice of the Advisory Committee on Distinction Awards who base their recommendations on professional distinction. There is no lower age limit.
    Mr. Robinson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the feeling that the Committee which makes these recommendations is apt to equate merit with age? Is he personally satisfied that the

    23
    arrangements are working well and that younger consultants get a fair share of these awards?
    Mr. Turton: Replying to the second part of the question, I think this is working reasonably well. Consultants over the age of 70 are not eligible for merit awards. I find that the lowest age at which an award has been given is 33. The average age for A awards is 51 and for B awards 47, which is reasonably satisfactory.

    Pharmacists
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that, despite the salary award of May, 1955, the pharmaceutical staffs of hospitals are 30 per cent. under establishment; that the position is deteriorating with consequent harmful effect to the service which hospitals are able to give to patients; and what steps he will take to effect an improvement.
    Mr. Turton: I am aware that there is a shortage of pharmacists in hospitals, as elsewhere, but precise details are not available. I am considering what action can be taken.
    Mr. Collins: Is the Minister aware that whilst he is considering this action, and for the past twelve months, hospitals have had to pay from 14 to 16 guineas a week for locum pharmacists because they cannot now recruit permanent staff at £550 a year? Is not that the crux of the matter, and will he deal with that quickly?
    Mr. Turton: I answered a Question a fortnight ago about locum pharmacists. Their remuneration is a matter in the first instance for the Pharmaceutical Whitley Council.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether the dispensing services in some hospitals have had to be closed down because of the lack of staff?
    Mr. Turton: It is known that in two hospitals the chief pharmacists have recently left the hospital service for outside employment. This is a general difficulty throughout the country. There is a shortage of pharmacists, not only in the hospital service but in our other services, and I am certainly perturbed about it.

    Mrs. Harriet Thornton
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Health on what dates Mrs. Harriet Thornton was given an independent medical examination; who is responsible for the expense involved; on what date the doctor's report was received by the Board of Control; and what decision has been reached as to whether Mrs. Thornton is to be discharged or to remain in a mental home.
    Mr. Turton: I am not aware, neither is the Board of Control, on what dates Mrs. Harriet Thornton was given an independent medical examination. The responsibility for the expense involved rests with the applicant for the independent medical examination. No certificates or reports from the two doctors authorised to examine Mrs. Thornton have yet been received by the Board of Control, and no decision has, therefore, been reached as to her discharge.
    Mr. Dodds: Will the right hon. Gentleman state that if my client pays for the independent medical examination that same person gets either the medical report or a copy of it? Is he not aware that the doctors made their final examination ten days ago, and does he not think it is time that something was done, or is it felt that this woman should stay longer?
    Mr. Turton: I do not know when the examination took place, but I take it that the hon. Gentleman is correct in his facts. If the reports do not come in, the question will then arise as to what is to happen to this lady. At the present moment she is absent from the Cane Hill Mental Hospital on a three months' trial period. If the hospital management committee or the Board do not exercise their statutory power to direct the patient's discharge, the question of her future care will be a matter for consideration by the hospital authorities in the light of reports received upon her progress while on trial.

    St. Luke's Hospital, Rugby (Building Extensions)
    Mr. J. Johnsonasked the Minister of Health whether he can now make a statement regarding proposed building extensions to St. Luke's Hospital. Rugby.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: No proposals for the extension of this hospital have been submitted to my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. Johnson: Has the hon. Lady forgotten that a short while ago she invited me to put down a Question upon this matter? This is a most disappointing answer to me, and also to my constituents.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: I may have invited the hon. Gentleman to put down a Question on his own area, but I am now giving him the information. The regional hospital boards are responsible for the planning in their areas, and, as the hon. Gentleman will know, the main problem here is less to provide extra beds than to staff the many existing closed beds. The regional hospital board is considering the general problem, but it has not submitted to my right hon. Friend any suggestions for the rebuilding of St. Luke's Hospital.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Personal Case
    Mr. Chapmanasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that Mr. B. Palmer, 7, Napton Grove, Birmingham, 29, returned to work under the National Health Service after his retirement, acting in the national interest and looking forward to an improved pension; that he has now been discovered to be ineligible for re-entry to the superannuation scheme; that his contributions were wrongly deducted for two-and-a-half years and have now been returned without apology or payment of interest; whether he will not make an ex gratia payment for the loss and distress involved; and whether he will amend the regulations to encourage elderly people to resume work in the National Health Service.
    Mr. Turton: I am sorry that Mr. Palmer was wrongly required to make superannuation contributions on being reemployed; these have been returned and I do not consider that any question of an ex gratia payment arises. The Superannuation Regulations already enable re-employed pensioners to add to their pensions except where a pension has been
    26
    commuted. I do not consider that an amendment of the Regulations is called for.
    Mr. Chapman: But is not this most unfair? Would it not be the decent thing to do to offer this man at least an ex gratia payment to cover the interest on the money which the Ministry has illegally collected from him for no less than two years? Would it not be the decent thing to do something about that aspect of the matter?
    Mr. Turton: There is no statutory power to pay interest on returned contributions made in these circumstances.

    Blindness (Treatment)
    Mr. B. Harrisonasked the Minister of Health why treatment available outside the Service for curing or alleviating blindness in small children is not available through the National Health Service.
    Mr. Turton: I am aware that a doctor who does not practise in the National Health Service claims to be able to treat some of these children successfully. I have had repeated inquiries made for the evidence on which his claims are based and have been unable to obtain any evidence at all or even, latterly, any reply to inquiries. I regret to say that I am advised by the most distinguished eye surgeons that there is no known effective treatment for the type of blindness in question. The claims made can do nothing but raise false hopes and lead to fruitless expenditure of considerable sums of money.
    Mr. Harrison: How does my right hon. Friend explain the fact that the parents of these children have noticed an improvement in their sight after they have been treated by this doctor?
    Mr. Turton: The type of blindness in question is retrolental fibroplasia. I am advised that some of the children have a small remnant of sight left, enough just to perceive light. A very young baby cannot demonstrate that, but as his mental capacity develops he becomes able to appreciate and follow light and to show others that he can do so. This gives the impression that the sight has improved when it may not really have done so. Spontaneous improvement occurs in some cases during the first few weeks of the disease.
    Mr. Hastings: Am I right in concluding that the most distinguished ophthalmic surgeons are engaged in the National Health Service and that better treatment cannot be obtained outside the Service than in it?
    Mr. Turton: That is perfectly true. The point here is that these parents are being asked to pay £500 for the treatment when we can find no evidence of any advantage received by the children.

    Adviser in Parentcraft
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Minister of Health what arrangements he has made for the discharge of duties formerly carried out by the Adviser in Parentcraft to his Department.
    Mr. Turton: Any necessary work in this field is now fully covered by medical officers specialising in maternity and child welfare and by public health nursing officers of my Department.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that he still regards this work as of first importance, as it has got about in some areas that the termination of the appointment means that the Minister is no longer interested?
    Mr. Turton: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for putting down the Question. The work on the advisory side is going on as strongly as ever.

    Tranquilliser Drugs
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Minister of Heath what action he is taking to prevent the excessive prescribing of tranquillisers in view of recent medical information.
    Mr. Turton: Responsibility for what is prescribed must rest with the doctors concerned, but I have no doubt they are well aware of the desirability of restricting quantities of these and other drugs to the minimum necessary for the treatment of the patient.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that a very strong advertising campaign about this specific type of drug is being started, and that doubts are expressed in medical circles about the value of the drug? Could he not say that the prescribing of it will be
    28
    restricted to hospitals until we have further information about it?
    Mr. Turton: No, Sir. Doctors must be free to prescribe. It is not advisable, in my view, for Ministers to interfere with the right of doctors to prescribe. However, if the medical profession has doubts about the advisability of these drugs, then I feel sure there will be a drop in the number of such prescriptions.
    Dr. Summerskill: As these so-called tranquillisers are, for the most part, proprietary drugs, and as the Minister in the debate on the Guillebaud Report showed some concern about the excessive prescribing of proprietary drugs, can the right hon. Gentleman say what he is doing to prevent this excessive prescribing and what the exploitation of the public is?
    Mr. Turton: I have been in communication with the British Medical Association on this point.

    Accidents in the Home (Young Children)
    Mr. Hastingsasked the Minister of Health whether in view of the 176 accidental deaths of infants under one year of age that occurred through suffocation in bed or cradle and the uncertainty as to the causation of many such deaths, he will institute an inquiry as to how they can be prevented.
    Mr. Turton: An inquiry designed to gain more exact information is already proceeding under the general direction of Professor Banks of Cambridge.
    Mr. Hastings: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise what extraordinary distress the death of these healthy children causes the parents, and that the deaths occur even with the most careful mothers, and even in hospitals? Can he say when the inquiry is likely to report, so that something can be done to prevent such terrible disasters?
    Mr. Turton: I understand that an interim report is at present in preparation. The hon. Gentleman will remember that in the Chief Medical Officer's Annual Report for 1954, on page 73, there was a certain amount of detail about the inquiry.

    NUCLEAR TEST EXPLOSIONS
    Mr. Hunterasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will instruct our representative at the United Nations Disarmament Commission lo press all nations to agree to the limitation of atom and hydrogen bomb tests pending the discussions of the disarmament proposals now before the United Nations Disarmament Commission.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Douglas Dodds-Parker): The Disarmament Commission has just adjourned, having given instructions to its Sub-Committee that it should continue its search for agreement and that all the various proposals made in the Commission are to be studied in the Sub-Committee. Included among them are proposals for the limitation of nuclear test explosions.
    Mr. Hunter: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there will be great disappointment in this country, and throughout the world, if the Soviet Government's offer to negotiate about the stopping of hydrogen bomb tests is not accepted? Public opinion is against the testing of these terrible weapons of destruction.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I am certain that public opinion in this country, in so far as I can speak for it, would be against a unilateral acceptance of such an offer without proper control over the other factors involved.
    Dr. Summerskill: As a warning has been given by the Medical Research Council that if the rate of tests increases there will be a positive danger to people now living, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the rate of testing is increasing, particularly in the United States?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: No, Sir, not without notice. The matter was dealt with fully by the Minister of Health in a debate last week.
    Mr. Hunterasked the Secretary of state for Foreign Affairs, in view of the official announcement that the Soviet Government are ready to start talks immediately on the banning of atom and hydrogen bomb tests, if he will take steps to convene a conference of the Powers concerned.
    Mr. Reevesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government has considered the official Soviet proposal to ban all further nuclear tests; and whether a favourable response will be made, so that the first step in international disarmament can be made.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) on 19th July.
    Mr. Hunter: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Soviet Foreign Secretary's offer is in respect of international agreement between the three major Powers, there being three Powers making nuclear weapons? Surely, he can take a lead in calling a conference of the three Powers?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: The Prime Minister dealt with the matter on 19th July. If the hon. Member will look at that reply and listen to the debate today and tomorrow, he may learn something.

    MIDDLE EAST (SUPPLY OF ARMS)
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what answer he has given to the Israeli Government's request for anti-aircraft equipment.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: Her Majesty's Government are not prepared to disclose the details of particular requests or deliveries.
    Sir L. Plummer: Is the Minister aware that I did not ask him to do so? I asked him what reply he had given. Is he aware that the Israelis are menacing nobody? Also, is he aware that the peace of the world depends upon tranquillity in the Middle East? Why do the Government refuse to give defensive weapons such as anti-aircraft guns to Israel in her pursuit of peace and her defence?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: It is not the custom to disclose confidential diplomatic exchanges. With regard to the rest of the hon. Gentleman's questions, I have nothing to add to my original answer.
    Mr. Callaghan: Has not discretion been exercised about giving information? As anti-aircraft weapons can be of no interest

    31
    to anybody except a possible aggressor, what is the objection to telling us whether a request has been made, and, if so, whether the Government are willing to supply the weapons?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I would refer the hon. Gentleman to his right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), who, I think, originally gave this reply in 1950.
    Mr. Callaghan: Has time stood still since 1950?
    Mr. Shinwell: Since the hon. Gentleman has referred to me, is he aware that I regard his answer as completely unsatisfactory?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I am delighted that at last the right hon. Gentleman is so dissatisfied with himself.
    Mr. H. Morrison: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to supply such arms to Israel as are calculated to keep Israel on a basis of not less than equality with the Arab States? Can he tell us that without divulging any great secrets?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: On numerous occasions, almost weekly, the policy of Her Majesty's Government has been laid down from this Dispatch Box—in line with the Tripartite Declaration of 1950, when, I think, the right hon. Gentleman was Foreign Secretary.
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is satisfied that Israel still has qualitative equality in arms with the Arab countries; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) on 18th July.
    Sir L. Plummer: Altogether apart from that, will the Joint Under-Secretary make clear what steps Her Majesty's Government are taking to help Israel to counter the Centurion tanks which Her Majesty's Government are supplying to the Arab States? Will he tell us what efforts Her Majesty's Government are making to see that Israel is put into no more than a
    32
    strong defensive situation, which demands qualitative equality with the Arab States?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: It is not possible to go into details of the quality and quantity of supplies, logistics and communications and all the other factors involved.
    Mr. Shinwell: While there may be sound reasons for not disclosing details, will not the hon. Member agree on behalf of Her Majesty's Government that the present arms position between the State of Israel and the Egyptian Government is one of unbalance and that Egypt has an overwhelming superiority in arms?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: No, I do not agree, and if the right hon. Gentleman will look at the replies given by my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary over the last few weeks he will see why.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Is my hon. Friend aware that recently Mr. Ben-Gurion said that Israeli forces had more than doubled in the last eight years and that he did not think anything of the sort was true of the Arabs?
    Mr. Gaitskell: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Foreign Secretary's statement that the balance of arms was in favour of Israel has been strongly challenged by the Israeli Government and that they have given chapter and verse for their views? We are awaiting from the Foreign Secretary some further comment on the situation so that we might really know what the situation is.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I am aware that the Israeli Government gave a Press conference and presented Israel's case. The Arabs, on the other hand, have justified large purchases from the Soviet bloc on the grounds that they were necessary to balance Israeli superiority.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Does not all that show the necessity for giving a really objective statement of Her Majesty's Government's opinion of the details of the balance of arms?
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should consult his hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), who knew a great deal about this in our last debate on the matter.

BRITISH MOTOR CORPORATION (STRIKE)
Mr. G. Brown(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Labour whether he has any statement to make about the British Motor Corporation strike.
The Minister of Labour and National Service (Mr. Iain Macleod): On 27th June the British Motor Corporation announced its intention to issue redundancy notices to about 6,000 workers in its factories in Birmingham, Oxford and South Wales, to take effect on 29th June. On 4th July, representatives of the unions concerned met the employers in local conference which was adjourned. On the same day the unions and the management had informal discussions at which the unions demanded the reinstatement of the dismissed workers while further negotiations took place and also claimed that in cases where dismissal was unavoidable some compensatory payment should be made. These demands were not acceptable to the management.
On 9th July the national representatives of the unions recommended their executive councils to call an official strike of all the Corporation's employees from 23rd July in certain circumstances and the decision to strike was confirmed by the unions on 14th July. Following a request by the unions for my intervention my officers met representatives of the employers and the unions on 17th July. At these talks the employers expressed the view that questions about the dismissals should be pursued through the normal negotiating machinery whilst the unions considered that the procedure of the industry was not applicable in the circumstances of the dispute.
On the question of compensation, the unions insisted that it should be pursued in relation to the specific case of the British Motor Corporation whilst the employers regarded it as a matter which should be dealt with by the National Employers' Federation as a general issue and not in connection with a particular firm and under threat of a strike. These views were so fundamentally opposed as to make it clear that there was then no prospect of agreement being reached.
As the House is aware the strike began this morning. I shall, of course, continue
34
to watch the position closely and shall be glad to help the parties towards a settlement as soon as the opportunity arises.
Mr. Brown: Will the Minister bear in mind that this situation follows some heavy inactivity on his part? Is he aware that the longer this strike continues the more dangerous the situation is likely to get, quite beyond the confines of B.M.C.? Has he in mind any particular step to help towards a settlement? Has he considered a court of inquiry, or has he in mind any idea which he can offer? Will he be willing to give the House a further report in the next day or two?
Mr. Macleod: On the last point, I will, of course, keep the House informed, as it wishes. On the question of what action could have been taken, it was to see what common ground there was that the preliminary meetings were held last Tuesday. When it was made clear that the position appeared irreconcilable, as I have outlined in my statement, it became obvious that no purpose, at that stage at least, would be served by further meetings. As to the future, the position, as I have always made clear, is that if the situation should ease in any way, the services of myself and my Ministry are at the disposal of both sides.
Mr. M. Lindsay: Can my right hon. Friend confirm the reports that, in spite of picketing, more than 50 per cent. of those concerned reported for work this morning? If that is so, does it not show that this is a highly unpopular strike?
Mr. Macleod: I am informed from the 12 factories affected that of the 51,000 people concerned, 28,000, or 55 per cent., are at work. I think that that goes some way to bear out what my hon. Friend has said. I do not believe that anybody wants this strike. I do not believe that the unions want it for a minute. I am certain about that. In theory, such a strike should be easy to settle, but, in practice, at present there is no room for manoeuvre between the two parties. If that becomes available, I exclude no solution.
Mr. J. Hynd: Since it has been found desirable or necessary, because of the recession in this firm's production, to dismiss a number of the men who have invested their labour in the industry, has the firm dismissed any of its shareholders without compensation?
Mr. Ellis Smith: It made £23 million last year.
Mr. Chapman: Last week the B.M.C. and, I believe, the engineering employers said, in consultations with the unions, that they insisted on deciding the size of the labour force—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—I am quoting—and that that was a matter for the management. Can the Minister confirm that that was said? If so, does it not show how very dangerous it was for the Minister to make that statement last March and to provoke so much of the trouble in the industry?
Mr. Macleod: It is difficult to reply patiently to the hon. Member, whose interventions from the beginning have, for months past, been ill-informed and mischievous. If he would for a moment stop trying to pull motes out of my eye and look at the beam in his own, it might help.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Mr. Speaker, I desire to ask your permission to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, a serious strike and its effect upon our economy caused by the action of the British Motor Corporation and the Minister's refusal to intervene. I ask the House to treat this matter as one of definite and urgent public importance.
Mr. Speaker: I can shorten matters by saying that, quite apart from the merits of the hon. Member's submission, there is very shortly to be put the Question, "That this House do now adjourn." On previous occasions I have pointed out that if that is the case, it is impossible to have an Adjournment on the Motion for the Adjournment. The matter to which the hon. Member refers can be raised on the Motion for the Adjournment.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Before Labour Members start laughing, they should listen. I had not been forewarned that the Adjournment was to be moved, Mr. Speaker. I thank you for your advice. I will be able to raise the matter on the Adjournment later in the evening, provided that I catch your eye, Sir. As this is such an urgent matter, which has such a serious effect upon our economy and upon labour relations throughout the country, I hope that that will be borne in mind.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Fenner Brockway: On a point of order. I apologise, Mr. Speaker, for not having given notice of this matter, but I did not anticipate that it would arise. Last Tuesday, I asked whether you would accept a Private Notice Question upon the subject of the situation in Nigeria. You suggested that I should place a Question upon the Order Paper. The hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) and I have Questions upon the Order Paper today. In view of the serious situation in the largest of our Colonies, which may affect the Constitutional Conference in September, may I ask you whether the Secretary of State for the Colonies might be asked to answer those Questions today?
Mr. Speaker: I am sorry, but that is not possible. I have received no request from the Minister to answer these Questions. The hon. Member will receive a Written Answer, and upon the basis of that he will be able to decide his future action.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Heath.]

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
3.41 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Sir Anthony Eden): It is nearly six months since we held a foreign affairs debate in this House, and in the interval many events of importance have taken place. The Soviet leaders have paid their visit to London—the first occasion since the Revolution that any such contact has been made with a Western capital. Many discussions ensued between us, of which I shall wish to give some impressions later. Then there have been other significant but customary contacts. The most important of these has been the meeting of the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth. We have also observed certain events behind the Iron Curtain.
This afternoon I want to stand back for a moment to try to survey the whole picture and to assess what modifications there have been and their consequences for ourselves and our Allies. It is with Europe, in particular, that I wish to deal. For, as it seems to me, the principal factor which is influencing opinion in all those lands is the growing understanding of the decisive character of the deterrent. Nobody now doubts the power of this, or its wholesale destructive capacity, and I suggest that no country would be prepared to launch an attack which would provoke its use. I am sure of this today. I cannot say that I could be equally sure of it for ever. But its significance for our immediate problems is there for all to understand.
I have heard it suggested that no one should place too much confidence in the power of the deterrent because, after all, much the same trust was at one time placed in the preventive horror of poison gas. The older Members of this House will recall that in the 'twenties many articles were written and speeches made to the effect that, with the development of such gases, war would become unthinkable. In fact, a Second World War took place and gas was not used. Cannot the same thing happen, so the argument runs, in respect of the hydrogen deterrent, even in a global war?
I do not think that the analogy is a true one, but it is worth examining, all the same. The hydrogen bomb is a
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further development in destructive power of the atomic deterrent; infinitely greater in its effect, of course, than poison gas. It is in direct catastrophic descent—if I may so describe it—from gunpowder, through high explosives and the atom. It is the ultimate weapon of destructive power in the modern arsenal of war. I call it the ultimate weapon, since it has power enough to destroy the human race, and nobody, presumably, can see any advantage in trying to do more than that.
In the days when the atomic weapon was the most powerful which existed in the world it was generally recognised that if war came it would be used, not only because, as Lord Attlee, I believe, once said, there could not be a set of Queens-berry Rules in a warring world, but also because a great Power which possessed it was not likely to deprive itself of its decisive use. For the same reason I think it inconceivable that a modern global war could take place without the use of atomic and hydrogen weapons, with all their consequences. It is this knowledge which works so strongly for peace today. I agree with an article written some time ago by the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) about that—although we do not always agree about everything.
I have seen it suggested that my growing conviction that a European war is unlikely is due to compliments paid to us by our Soviet visitors last April. Nothing could, in fact, be sillier. What, among other things, encouraged me and my right hon. and learned Friend about that Soviet visit was that the Soviet leaders accepted, as we accepted, the final destructive effect of nuclear power.
Where does all this lead us? I suggest that it has two consequences, the one military and the other political. The military consequences I will touch upon only briefly; they are to be debated later. But it is surely clear that the possession of this weapon by the two major world Powers—and, before long, also by ourselves—will compel some military rethinking upon both sides of the Iron Curtain; and I use "military" in the broadest sense of the word. At any rate, we have been engaged upon this for some time, and I have no doubt that others have been doing the same.
We have also begun to exchange views with our friends. Let me make this clear

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beyond doubt: what we seek is a reappraisal of the strategic needs of today with our Allies and within our alliance. Our policy remains firmly based upon the closest possible relations with the Commonwealth, the United States and Western Europe. There has never been any question of our making a sudden or abrupt decision which would throw the whole military gear of our Western unity into confusion. We are not playing that game. But if our alliance is to remain vital and is to command the confidence of the peoples, it must constantly adapt itself to a changing world.
Meanwhile, let us examine this more teasing question, leaving the military aspect for next week. Has the destructive power of the deterrent any political consequences? I believe that it has, more particularly so in this age of rapid industrial transition. Imagine yourself, if you will, Mr. Speaker, as a director of national policy in a country which has no urgent need to heed the gusts of public opinion. It may be that at one time you had ideas that your system of government should rule the world. It may be that you have not abandoned them, but you might quite reasonably come to the conclusion that you could not obtain your objective by military means without the total destruction of everything you were seeking to create in your own land—and your own extinction, which is not always unimportant. You might then wisely decide that you would pursue a similar objective by other methods.
I do not suggest that this is the whole explanation of the developments which we have been witnessing in recent months; I do not think it is. Behind the Iron Curtain there is, I believe, a growing opinion which would not take kindly to a return to the condition of things which we and others now describe as "Stalinism." We in the West would make a mistake if we did not accept this and understand it. Here is, after all, quite a normal process in the history of revolution. The departure of Rakosi fits into it all, and so does the reaction to what has recently happened in Poland. They are not indications which we should ignore. I believe that behind the Iron Curtain there exists today an increasing desire at least for the
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enjoyment of more of the material advantages which the West commands and at best for contacts which could cover wider fields, including the arts and humanities, which were once unchecked around the world.
So I say to the House that two factors seem to be exerting their influence on the internal situation in Russia. First, the condemnation of Stalin and the cult of personality have led to a ferment of debate in the Soviet Union and throughout the whole Communist world. That process is being carefully controlled. The structure of the Socialist bloc remains unchanged, but, all the same, what seems a departure from rigidity may yet lead the Communist world into some unexpected paths. Secondly, even the present limited shift of emphasis—because it is limited—from military to economic power means that the position of the scientists, technologists, managers and engineers becomes increasingly important in the Soviet hierarchy. Their views may not be the same as those of the men who exerted the same kind of influence before them. The Soviet people are undoubtedly becoming better educated, and this brings with it a wish to lead what we would call a more normal life.
Of course, it would be an exaggeration to say that the régime is being liberalised. A Communist State can never enjoy parliamentary government in our sense of the term, but the energies and initiative of the Soviet people are certainly being given a freer rein. All our reports indicate that. Its leaders may not find it easy to put back the clock completely, even if they wanted to. The statements of Soviet leaders are important, not only because of the power wielded by the men who utter them, but also because the policies which they are pursuing are based on and reflect changes in the attitude and wishes of the Soviet people.
Let me give some explanation, as I think that all these matters are of interest to the House if we are to assess the position in which we find ourselves. More and more men and women are appearing in Moscow openly, having been released from concentration camps. Greater respect is being paid to the independence of the courts, and certain summary procedures have been abolished. Confessions in court were once a grim part of the Soviet criminal procedure. We can all

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remember that. Soviet lawyers can now argue that they cannot be accepted as evidence. Certain penal legislation dealing with labour offences has been revoked. A man can change his job without any punishment.
We must not exaggerate this process in Soviet Russia, but we must hope that it will continue and eventually find its expression not only in internal policy, but in foreign policy as well. After all, the practice of competitive co-existence opens the Soviet world to some new influences, but it involves the Soviet Government in an increasingly complex network of new relationships. Trade is one example of this. An important Soviet trade delegation is now in this country, seeking to place orders with our firms. We welcome this. The contacts and relationships which will flow from this can do nothing but good to both our countries.
Of course, all this has thrown the Communist Parties in other countries into a considerable state of confusion. That is nothing we need worry about particularly, I think, on either side of the House. The anomalous position of Communist parties in so many countries owing allegiance to a Power outside their own frontiers, has done nothing but harm. Whatever, in the past, Russian leaders may have thought of it, judged as a world policy it never did Soviet Russia any good at all. Subversion and internal interference with other countries are inconsistent with attempts to cultivate good relations abroad. It has always done injury to our relations with Soviet Russia when attempts are made to carry on any form of contacts between us through the Communist organisations here.
We have seen an improvement in this respect since the Soviet visit and I believe that the Soviet leaders now understand our feelings on these matters. We must hope that, as time goes on, the desire of the Soviet Government to work towards a more normal relationship will show itself increasingly in foreign policy; and that by persistent diplomacy we shall be able to edge towards solutions of the really big problems. We must always try to enlarge the area of agreement. Meanwhile, I much prefer what has been called the "menace" of Soviet competition to the threat of world war.
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I have tried to analyse, as I see them, the developments which are taking place in the Communist world. If all this is accepted, with whatever reservations hon. Members may like to make—these assessments are difficult to arrive at—there are certain consequences, and I suggest three at least. First, the danger of war in Europe, or of a global war, has receded and is receding. Secondly, that there are influences at work which could result in giving aid to this relaxation of tension. Thirdly, that all this business requires great patience. It will not surprise the House that I should say this, because over many years it has been my view that, generally speaking, to be successful, diplomacy must proceed step by step.
Now I come, with the patience of the House, to the main political issue of Europe in the context in which I have spoken, which is Germany. Ever since the meeting at Berlin, more than two years ago, we have tried repeatedly to make clear two things which, I think, are generally accepted by hon. Members on both sides of the House and by the Western world. First, that we were in favour of the unification of Germany and that there could be no real security in Europe until this unity had been realised. Secondly, that all Germany should be allowed to come to conclusions about her own political future by means of free elections.
Recently, the representatives of the Communist Government of Eastern Germany, the D.D.R., have been to Moscow, in conference with the Soviet leaders. After that discussion, certain comments were made from the Soviet side to which I think I should refer. Notably, Mr. Khrushchev, after declaring his support for the unity of Germany, is reported as saying:
"The imperialists and monopolists want the unification of Germany on the basis of the Bonn constitution, that is, on a purely capitalist basis."
There let me say once again that the imperialists and the monopolists, if that means us and the Western Allies, as I presume it does, have never asked for any such thing at any time. They have only asked that all the German people should be allowed to come to their own decision as to their own future by free elections. That is all they have asked in the past and that is all that we ask today. What is more, we specifically laid it down in Berlin—that is a point often

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forgotten—more than two years ago, that the Germans were fully entitled to choose any constitution they liked, either Bonn, or a modification, or anything else. That is still our position.
Mr. Khrushchev went on to argue that the leaders of the D.D.R. wanted unification of Germany on the basis on which they are building their State, that is, of course, the Communist basis. If that were true of the majority of Germans, and if they were freely to vote for a Communist State, we would deeply deplore it, but we could not object. We could not object because of our own declarations, which all the Allies have made. On the other hand, it must be evident to a good many people that the Germans have no intention of doing any such thing at all. Not only is Western Germany overwhelmingly anti-Communist but, as far as one can judge, so are many of the German people now living in the Soviet zone. How else can one explain, I ask the House to consider, the stream of refugees from that area which has been continuous ever since the war? It has ebbed and flowed in numbers, but it has never ceased. At the present time, it is in full spate. About 22,000 a month are crossing the frontier from Communist-controlled Germany to the West, despite all the precautions that are taken.
We have always accepted that Russia like anyone else—like many hon. Members of this House—is entitled to feel concern at the part that a strongly rearmed Germany might play in the modern world. Therein surely lies the value of such arrangements as we have made and are making in the Western European Union, and in N.A.T.O., too, for our joint and several security. We have special arrangements for the integration of forces and we are beginning to develop, in the Western European Union, control of armaments among ourselves. This is a subject well worth further study by us all. It is something entirely new in the modern world.
As to security plans for Europe, we are not opposed to these. Last summer at Geneva, at what were called the "Summit Meetings" we put forward certain detailed proposals to give mutual guarantees to all of us against an attack in Europe. We call them "mutual" guarantees because that was the title
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which everyone preferred. Indeed, the House may recall that the United States declared her willingness to take part, and in the light of history that was a very remarkable offer. Such an offer might have saved much bloodshed before 1914 and 1939.
Mr. Alfred Robens: Would the Prime Minister make that point rather more clear? Was not the offer of the security pact conditional only upon a united Germany electing freely to join N.A.T.O.?
The Prime Minister: No, Sir; not on a united Germany electing freely to join N.A.T.O. It was connected with Germany holding her free elections and having expressed her will, but there was no condition as to what Germany should do. I am coming to this point in a very few minutes. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there was no kind of condition attached that these guarantees could come into force only if Western Germany had joined N.A.T.O.
Mr. Robens: That is the Prime Minister's point of view, but I did read the White Paper very carefully. After rereading it, I am bound to say that the conclusion anyone must come to is that the security arrangement was in case united Germany did, in fact, join the West.
The Prime Minister: I understand the point the right hon. Gentleman is making. It was not a condition. It was at no time a condition that Germany should join N.A.T.O. If Germany, after a free election, took the decision to join N.A.T.O., certain things would follow. If Germany, as a result of a free election, made some other move, something else would follow. [HON. MEMBERS: "What?"] There was no question at any time in our minds that it was a condition of any security guarantee that -Her Majesty's Government would give that Germany must join N.A.T.O. On the contrary, over and over again, at Berlin and since, we have said that Germany must be free to take her own decision. She is so free now, so far as we are concerned.
Mr. Robens: I am sorry to press the right hon. Gentleman, but this is a very important point, which was never really cleared up in our last debate by the right hon. Gentleman. We had words about

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it from this Box. I agree entirely that the proposals were that Germany should be free to join Warsaw, N.A.T.O. or to remain neutral. The only point I am making is whether this security offer was offered only if, in fact, the united Germany did join N.A.T.O. There was no security offer if she did anything other than join N.A.T.O. The White Paper quite clearly shows that to be the case.
The Prime Minister: It is only right that the right hon. Gentleman should raise this matter. I can only repeat the views of Her Majesty's Government. I will look all this up carefully again and my right hon. and learned Friend will deal with it tomorrow. I am quite clear about what our minds were on the subject and what my mind now is, and that is that a security agreement in Europe would not be conditional in any circumstances upon Germany joining N.A.T.O. We should be willing and ready to try to work out a security arrangement whatever that decision might be. We have always said, and I repeat it, that Germany must be free to take her own decision, whichever way it is.
In part, this discussion arises from the fact that most of the opinion throughout the world knows quite well that if Germany were to take her decision she would join Western Europe. That has added to the feeling that we were making a condition. Here and there there has been the presumption of a probability. It was worth while trying to work that out. I come back to the position about what we might possibly do in the question of a security pact.
I hope, particularly in the light of what the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) has just said, that there will be further study of all these matters to which I have referred. I will say why. I would like all concerned, including the Soviet Government, to consider whether, in time, out of some of the practical arrangements that we have made—for instance, in the Western European Union and in the working of N.A.T.O.—some plans cannot be made to enable confidence between us to grow, and thus might be held free elections in Germany on terms which we could all accept.
Meanwhile, there are certain practical possibilities, shall we call them, in competitive coexistence in Europe now, as a consequence of the mutual fear of the
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deterrent and its influence on traditional weapons. The forces in the West, even under the plans which we have already made—under existing plans—are very small. Can any great nation really feel today that a threat of aggression can come from a force of this size, still less from a smaller force? I hope that it may be possible in due course to discuss, East and West, what other mutual undertakings might be given further to reduce the tension in Europe and whether agreed limitation of forces in certain areas could be helpful to agreement. That is what I should like to see examined.
Any progress of this kind would, of course, have to be realised, and I think could intelligently be realised, step by step with like progress towards the reunification of Germany. They have to go together. Cannot we find in this the seeds of a solution?
Tomorrow, my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary will deal fully with the disarmament question and with the problems of the Middle and Far East, but, if the House will bear with me further, I want to deal for a few moments with one aspect of disarmament which was the subject of Questions today and on which I think, here again, it may be possible for us to make some progress. At least, I think we can suggest the line which might be followed.
It is the question of the limitation of hydrogen tests. The Report which we received and to which the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill) referred at Question Time, from the Medical Research Council, and that which was presented to the United States Government about the same time by a similar committee in America, were, I think she would agree, on the whole reassuring, at least for the present. I do not put it beyond that. None the less, we have still a problem to handle, and the Powers concerned must try to work out proposals to limit and control test explosions. I know that it will not be easy, but it would be wise to prepare now to avoid the risk that the multiplication of experiments, if extended over a long period of time, as the right hon. Lady said, could have an effect on human health.
As I said at Question Time, we should have preferred to deal with it in the context of a disarmament convention, but we all know, especially those who have

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had anything to do with disarmament conventions, how excessively technical those animals can become. We should, therefore, like to make it clear that we are quite ready now to discuss that matter separately from the disarmament convention. If we are to attempt this, as I would wish that we should, it would clearly be necessary that each one of us should try to work out the best method of limitation and control that we can contrive for these tests. We propose to do this ourselves; in fact, we have already given much thought to the matter. We have no rigid ideas as to the extent of the limitation to which the Powers could agree, except that it should be reasonably fair to all concerned.
Many of the matters to which I have referred this afternoon, and others besides, were discussed at the Commonwealth Conference, in the light of the views and experiences of our respective Governments. Each Prime Minister will no doubt have drawn his own conclusions. Our agreed opinions have already been expressed.
I should now like to add, in conclusion, on my own account, this one further thought to leave with the House for this debate: I believe that there has been an essential change in the international outlook in the last two years, a change between the Berlin Conference and now. That change has been between rigidity and flexibility. All was rigid then. Much seems flexible now.
This is something gained. Of course, we have to uphold our guard, and we shall do so. We shall remain loyal to our friendships in other parts of the world. The recent visit of the King of Iraq was an opportunity for us to give expression to one of them. At the same time, in an atmosphere where the fear of war is less immediately oppressive, opportunities may come to build that greater confidence upon which peace depends. It is for this that British diplomacy must work in the months ahead.
4.15 p.m.
Mr. Alfred Robens: I have listened, as I am sure the whole House has listened, with very great attention and interest to what the Prime Minister has said this afternoon. I am glad that he
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dealt in somewhat greater detail with the problem of Europe, because I share with him the view that the settlement of the European problem and the problem of Germany would probably produce such a completely different climate in the world that we should find that the problems which face us elsewhere in the world were much more easily solved. I agree with him entirely. What we have to do is to try to create confidence where confidence no longer exists, and, indeed, where there is fear. We must take every opportunity to make the best possible use of the changes which have taken place since we held this debate in February.
As the Prime Minister said, there have been a number of changes. There was the visit of Mr. Khrushchev and Mr. Bulganin and there was Mr. Khrushchev's speech at the 20th Congress. While the right hon. Gentleman spent some time, in our last debate, in dealing with some of the speeches which were made at the 20th Congress, at that time he had not had an opportunity of reading the full text of the Khrushchev speech, because it was not available. It has since been published, and I am certain that he has read it with very great interest.
It shows a tremendous change—a change from which the Soviet Government and the Governments of the satellites, who followed them, cannot retract without a good deal of difficulty within their own countries. I have had the opportunity of visiting Prague and Warsaw since those changes. I formed a definite opinion that what the Communist Governments were looking for was a strange contradiction in terms; they were looking for some form of democracy within their dictatorships. But they remain Communist countries. We have to recognise that that is the case and to realise that we have to live with them in this one world.
It is true, too, that in all those countries, including Russia, more people are being released from prison. We welcome that very much. If I may say so, it indicates that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was not wrong when he made it one of the main questions which he asked Mr. Khrushchev on his visit to this country. Indeed, I would say that it was a justification of what my right hon. Friend said on that occasion, and I know that he will be glad that a consequence of the change has been a good deal more

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freedom for those people who have not seen eye to eye with their Governments.
I want to say something about Germany later in my speech, but before I pass from commenting on what the Prime Minister said, may I say how much I was obliged to him for making a little more clear what was in his mind about a collective pact for Europe? I assure him that, to me, this is quite a change from what I had previously understood, for the reasons which I indicated in my intervention. It may well be that we are a little closer together, as I hope to show as I develop views on Germany on behalf of my party.
In addition to the changes which the Prime Minister has mentioned, there are other changes, and one of them is, of course, that unless there is some control of nuclear tests we are in danger of destroying humanity without having a war at all. It is a very big chance. At the same time, unless we reach a settlement of our international problems, we are in grave danger of using up all our resources, and financially crippling ourselves in building up these fantastic weapons of war which we hope, and, at the moment, believe, will never be used. Therefore, we want to get out of that position of either destroying ourselves accidently or using up too much of our resources on weapons which we are hoping, and which, at present, we believe, will not be used.
If the forces now engaged throughout the world in scientific research, if the highly-skilled engineering and the skill and the manpower that is involved in constructing weapons of war could be devoted to the elevation of mankind we should change the whole face of this world within a few decades. That really must be our prime objective, but the problem is: how do we bring it about?
First, I would say, Mr. Speaker, that we really cannot base a foreign policy on military groupings as an end in itself. They must surely be the means to the end, because world peace and the peaceful settlement of our international problems can never, in my view, be settled solely on the basis of military groupings on both sides but only by a world approach to all those problems.
That world approach, that instrument which we must use, is, of course, the United Nations. I remember that when I
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was in my 'teens one of the things that made me so proud of being a member of the Labour Party was to sit in a hall and listen to the late Arthur Henderson developing the theme of collective security, in the days when he was trying to build up the League of Nations. I do not believe that that principle has weakened with the passing of the years, but that it is within collective security that our hopes must lie for the maintenance of the human race.
It seems to me, therefore, that we really must try to see whether we can have this world or United Nations approach to the settlement of our problems. I believe, also, that today, because of the change, we should switch the emphasis from the military to the economic aspect. That is vitally important. If we are to get the United Nations approach to world problems, it pre-supposes that the great Powers are in agreement. There cannot possibly be a United Nations settlement of any problem if, in point of fact, the great Powers do not agree.
Therefore, I am very glad indeed that the Prime Minister has accepted an invitation to go to Moscow next year. I believe that these private conversations, contacts, and the like, must inevitably be a good thing—they can settle the sort of problem that was troubling the Prime Minister and me. Many of the big problems which, at a distance, appear to be insoluble, begin to take on some shape in private conversations, and one sometimes gets agreement quite quickly. As I say, I am glad that the Prime Minister is to go to Moscow. Arising from that visit, I hope that it will be possible, when dealing with these bigger problems outside, to carry the Russians with us in the United Nations; to be ready to see their point of view—there may have been occasions when we have been wrong—and that we may be able to reach decent compromise between us.
If one reads again the terms of the Charter of the United Nations, there is no doubt that there is there set forth a whole series of principles which, of course, if every nation in the world lived up to, we should have peace. Is it a dream to suggest that we might try to live up to them? If it is a dream, what is the alternative? It seems to me that the alternative to not trying to carry out the Charter principles is a nightmare existence.

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In a debate like this, the temptation is to go very wide. The Prime Minister wisely kept to one or two themes, but I must say something about the Far East and the Middle East, and I shall want, finally, to say something about Europe.
What would be the United Nations approach to the Far Eastern problem? I do not wish to deal with Korea except to say, in passing, that while there is no peace settlement at least there has been no fighting for some years. Nor do I wish to deal in detail with Indo-China, because at least there has been no fighting there since Geneva. I want, rather, to deal with the position of China, because China is obviously the key to the Far Eastern situation.
I must state quite clearly and categorically that we on this side believe most firmly that China should be admitted to the China seat in the United Nations. I know that the Government have said from time to time that they believe that to be the case. In fact, the Foreign Secretary, at Bridgwater in 1954, made a speech on this subject in which he showed that it was because he could not get the United States, for reasons which he indicated, to agree, that China had not been admitted.
All that I say to the Government about that is this. I feel that they have rather played down a bit the admittance of China—indeed, a bit too much—and that they might have taken the initiative, even at the risk of having the Americans vote against it or abstain. They might, at Geneva—and I hope that they will do so this autumn—have pressed really hard for the admittance of China to the seat in the United Nations. Failure to get China seated at the United Nations means that we cannot possibly ask her to observe the rules of the "international club" whilst we keep her outside. It is essential that that should be done, and with vigour; and that we use all our influence with the United States, and all our arguments, to show that it is in her interests, also, that China should be seated at the United Nations.
We have, of course, the problem there of Formosa and the off-shore islands. We do not depart from the view that was expressed by Lord Attlee, and to which we sometimes refer as the Attlee formula. What is the problem of Formosa? Two
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countries have apprehensions about it. The Chinese are apprehensive that Formosa will be used as a spring-board for an attack upon her territory. That is a justifiable apprehension in view of speeches that are made by Chiang Kai-shek and others. Equally, the United States of America regard Formosa as one of the key points in her island chain of defences which, in the hands of an unfriendly nation, they might regard as being threatening to that defence.
Both nations have apprehensions. I admit, with the Prime Minister, that we never get all these problems solved at once, but have to go step by step in an endeavour finally to solve them. It would seem to me, therefore, that there could be no argument that the off-shore islands of Matsu and Quemoy should go to China. Further, the apprehensions of both Americans and Chinese could be put on one side if, under the auspices of the United Nations, Fomosa was neutralised, thus preventing it from being used as a springboard for attack upon the China mainland or, conversely, being used as any threat to the United States island defence chain.
Ultimately, it seems to me, the Formosans themselves should decide what they want to do with their own country, but I do regard that as something, again, that the Government will have to press, and constantly press, upon the United States. We all know their feelings about China. They think that if they agree to admit her to the United Nations, they are, in fact, approving of the Communist régime there. That, of course, is not true. After all, we accept Russia in the United Nations, and welcome her there, but it does not mean that we approve of the Communist philosophy. The United States, I say again, would lose nothing at all by agreeing to China taking the China seat at the United Nations.
Mr. Ellis Smith: While I accept the whole of the case which my right hon. Friend has made up to now, will he bear in mind that the present Chinese Government do not want to be allowed to become members of the United Nations? What they want is to be allowed to take the seat which is legitimately theirs?
Mr. Robens: Yes. I am sorry if I did not make it clear, but I have tried

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to say not that China should be admitted to the United Nations but that China should occupy the China seat.
Turning to the Middle East, the Government have from time to time said that the Bagdad Pact is the Government's policy, and I am bound to say that I cannot regard that as a very satisfactory way of looking at the Middle East. The Bagdad Pact is a collective security agreement. It ties up certain of our Allies in collective security, but it can never be regarded as the policy for the whole of the Middle East. The Tripartite Agreement which we signed with the French and with the Americans has, of course, been a most valuable instrument, in my view, for maintaining peace in that whole area-much more important than the Bagdad Pact. Indeed, I do not see that the Bagdad Pact has had any effect at all on the question of the problem which exists between the Arabs and the Jewish people.
The Tripartite Agreement has been most effective but, of course, it would be much more valuable if the great Powers as a whole were ready to give the same sort of guarantees as are given under the Tripartite Agreement—the great Powers as a whole. When it was suggested from this side of the House, some months ago, that Russia ought really to be consulted about the problem of the Middle East, we were told that it was not possible. I think that both the Foreign Secretary and, indeed, the Prime Minister did say that they had had some talks off the record, at Geneva and elsewhere, from which it was clear to them that nothing could be gained by talking to the Russians about coming in with us, the Americans and the French and trying to get a settlement in the Middle East. They have, in fact, been disproved.
The fact that it was referred to the United Nations did bring the Russians in, and quite rightly. It was a good thing that they were brought in. I believe, again looking at the Middle East—I am only repeating what we have said before from these benches—that the only real settlement which will be lasting and permanent is a United Nations settlement of the Middle East. I do not think that in this day and age we can go on thinking that the Middle East is a sort of British possession, the place where only our influence can be felt. We have to face up to the fact that if we want a real settlement
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in the Middle East, then it must be through the United Nations and, to that extent, I am extremely glad that the Hammarskjold mission had been so successful.
At the same time all the Hammarskjold mission has done is to give us breathing space. It has not, at this stage—perhaps it was not so intended—settled all the outstanding problems that are there. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, a week or two ago, from the Dispatch Box, said that he thought that the balance of arms was in favour of the State of Israel. Today, his hon. Friend has had some questions and supplementary questions put to him on that matter. The right hon. and learned Gentleman invited me to table a Question in answer to which he said he would give reasons why he felt that the balance of arms was still in favour of the State of Israel, and I hope that tomorrow, when he opens the debate, the Foreign Secretary will very fully explain how he arrives at that particular judgment. I did not put the Question down because of this debate, and because I felt that in the course of five or ten minutes he could deal with it much more effectively than by supplementary questions.
We can only get information, in the main, from the newspaper correspondents; but when we look at the arms deliveries which have come to light over the last few months the list certainly does not add up to the State of Israel having the balance of arms in its favour. We are told, for example, that Egypt has about 150 Sherman tanks and about 200 Valentine tanks and that they received from us 40 Centurions, this tank being the latest and heaviest type that we have in the West. It is true that Israel has Sherman tanks, but she has no Centurions and I cannot conceive that anyone would believe for a moment that the Sherman was a real opponent for the Centurion.
There was the arms deal with Czechoslovakia. What happened there? Again, from reports, it looks as if Egypt has received 100 heavy Stalin-3 tanks, 200 Czechoslovak T-34 tanks, which, I understand, are lighter than the Stalin-3 or the Centurions. All the Israelis have had since then are, it seems, some rather lighter tanks from France, but no heavy tanks comparable to the Centurion or Stalin-3.

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In the air, the situation looks even worse. The Czechoslovak-Egyptian arms deal provides for 200 jet fighter planes of the MiG type and 60 Ilyushin heavy bombers. So far as we know, the Israelis have nothing whatever to defend themselves with against the MiG except a small number of French fighters which they have received recently, and they certainly have nothing with which to attack the Ilyushin bombers. In addition, there were two destroyers which we supplied to Egypt—and we also supplied two to Israel—but recently Egypt has also received two destroyers of Russian make that come from Eastern Europe.
On top of that, there are the rumours of the Syrian arms deal. I do not know the truth of the Syrian arms deal at all. I asked the Prime Minister of Czechoslovakia whether there had been delivery of arms to Syria. My understanding was that there had not, but that conversations were taking place. We had a conversation about that matter with which I will not weary the House. At the same time, there are reports that, whether arms have been delivered or not, the arms deal was settled on the basis of supply to Syria of heavy tanks, MiG fighters, artillery, armoured vehicles, and the like.
We broadly know what the Israelis have. If we were to balance all these arms with what we know the Israelis have, it would seem to us, even if one took into consideration perhaps the better training of the Israelis, that the balance of arms must have shifted, and we cannot understand how it is that the Foreign Secretary, only two weeks ago, could have stood at that Box and said, despite all that, that the balance of arms was in favour of Israel. Therefore, I hope that the Foreign Secretary will take the opportunity of explaining this in much greater detail to us tomorrow.
Whatever the balance of arms may be now, what is the final settlement? Here, I should say that our view is quite clear. When the balance of arms is fair, we take the view that, through the United Nations and through the concert of big Powers, there should be a total embargo on all arms to the Middle East. It seems inconceivable that we should just go on even balancing arms more and more. It does not seem to me a sound sort of way of maintaining peace by merely having both groups with more, and better, and
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more dangerous arms. Therefore, there ought to be an arms embargo on the whole of the Middle East.
Once we have that balance and if it is done through the powers of the Security Council—and this is an additional argument for getting China into the United Nations to occupy the China seat—and we had such an embargo under proper control, we could be virtually sure that we were not building up vast arsenals in that very explosive area of the world. This still leaves the outstanding political problem of boundaries, refugees and economic aid. It is a great mistake—and the Government have been toying with this, and doing something about it—to channel economic aid through military pacts and alliances. We should aim at channelling economic aid through an international agency, the United Nations.
Here, in the Middle East, is a wonderful area in which to do this work. The sort of proposal we ought to make, as a help towards a settlement, is that we would look at the Middle East as a whole and produce internationally, through the United Nations, an economic plan for developing the Middle East as a whole, not merely because the countries in it happen to be members of the Bagdad Pact or something else.
That is of vital importance. We should think of the Middle East as we thought of the Colombo Plan. There are some Arab nations which are very rich and which will be very much more rich in the years ahead, because of their oil royalties. There is no reason why all Arab countries and Israel should not be in one economic plan, those who can make a contribution because of their fortunate oil situation making their contribution to the common good within the Middle East.
Major Tufton Beamish: I have listened with great interest to what the right hon. Gentleman has said. When he speaks of an arms embargo on all countries in the Middle East, does he mean an arms blockade?
Mr. Robens: I mean an arms embargo. I mean the Powers supplying no arms to anyone in the Middle East. [HON. MEMBERS: "How?"] This is where hon. Gentlemen make a great mistake; they cease to be politicians and they become detailed administrators. The

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politicians' task is to lay down the broad policy. It is for the administrators and technical people to work out the problems. What I mean by an arms embargo is that quite solemnly the great Powers say, as an instruction to their administrators, that no arms are to go to the Middle East; and they then work out the details of embargo and control. If the great Powers agree among themselves not to supply arms, they can prevent anybody else from supplying them if they so desire.
There are many hon. Gentlemen who prefer to look at the size of the problem which such proposals bring and, as a result, throw the proposals on one side. We do not take that view. We say that, however difficult the problems may be to solve, it is our duty, as politicians, to try and solve them and show the way. If there was a genuine desire and agreement not to supply arms to the Middle East, it could be done, and done without any difficulty whatsoever.
Major H. Legge-Bourke: The suggestion that the right hon. Gentleman has made is a very important one, and I want to know exactly where he stands. Supposing it were agreed, through the United Nations, that there should be an arms embargo, what is to happen if it is broken? Is he recommending that the sanction should be another Korea?
Mr. Robens: The hon. and gallant Gentleman falls into the same error. One could stand at this Dispatch Box and answer a thousand hypothetical questions. The real question is this. Is the desire to do this there? Is it possible to get the great Powers to do it? If the Powers say that it is, then it can be done. If somebody breaks it down, then we will deal with that as it arises.
The Prime Minister has said from time to time, in relation to Cyprus, that one of the great necessities for maintaining the position there was the need to deal with our commitments in the Middle East. If a proposal of this kind were accepted, it would relieve considerably the Government's problem in relation to Cyprus. If I might say so, we must do a great deal of new thinking about all these Imperial fortresses which have been part of our strategic defences. Malta, Cyprus, Aden, Ceylon and Singapore are examples of the places where we
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have a strategic interest which is conflicting with the legitimate rights and interests of the citizens within those places. In this, the second half of the twentieth century, one cannot deal with those problems as though this were the second half of the last century. We must recognise that the wave of nationalism, better education, and so on, means that people want to run their own show. If we are friends with them, they will want to help us to run the show together.
It seems to us that we ought to have a new look at the Imperial fortresses, first, from the military angle, to consider whether, having regard to new weapons, it is really necessary to have all these fortresses; and secondly, as regards the fortresses which are essential for defence in relation to United Nations guarantees and international commitments freely arrived at, to consider whether these bases can be of any use if they are within a hostile population, or whether we ought to have our bases, obtained by treaty rights, among friendly peoples.
I urge the Government to give some consideration to the whole question of our Imperial fortresses. Otherwise, we shall have repeated time and again the sad story of Cyprus, which has not been finished yet. [Laughter.] Some hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to think that that is funny. It is not funny to have constituents shot in the back. I hope hon. Gentlemen do not really think this is funny, because to have a base which requires 20,000 soldiers to keep down 400 terrorists, and from that same base to think of defending the Middle East, is to place a burden upon one's shoulders which one will find oneself unable to bear.
We are indebted to the Prime Minister for saying so much about Europe and Germany. I myself have probably spent too much time on the German problem, but I really feel that this is the key to relations between Russia and ourselves. Solve this problem, and I am sure that that will help in the problems we face in other parts of the world.
I should like to say something now on this matter not purely on my own behalf, but on behalf of the party for which I speak. In West Germany, the Russians are waging psychological warfare on a scale which it is dangerous to underrate. Their aim today is, as it always

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was, to convince the Germans that they can achieve unification only by breaking entirely with the West. In the short run, I do not myself fear the effects of those tactics; there are too many Germans now living in Western Germany who know from experience what Communist occupation means for me to take very seriously the threat which Mr. Khrushchev made when he said that, if we went on arming, he would successfully stage another "Hitler-Stalin pact."
The Western democracies have, over the years, stored up for themselves a genuine fund of good will in the Federal Republic, but I warn the Prime Minister that that fund of good will is not inexhaustible; and unfortunately, German memories have proved to be short. I am not suggesting that we should make a sudden and complete change in our German policy. I do not, for example, agree with those, whose views I respect, who propose that we can solve all our differences with the Russians by disbanding N.A.T.O and joining with the Kremlin in imposing neutrality on a united Germany. Such a policy, in my view, even if it were practicable, would not promote peaceful coexistence, but would, on the contrary, disrupt the unity of the West and so destroy the balance upon which any real peaceful coexistence depends.
What I do say is that, confronted with this dynamic Russia policy, we on our side cannot afford merely to maintain our cold war posture and behave as if the nuclear stalemate, the death of Stalin, and the other changes in the world situation had made no difference. If that is our attitude, the Russian psychological warfare in Western Germany may soon begin to achieve solid successes.
I suggest that what is now required are discussions between ourselves, the Americans, the French and the West Germans to try to work out a new Western approach to the German problem. While it would be unwise, and indeed difficult, to make any precise suggestions at this stage as to what the outcome of such talks could be, I believe that German reunification is only likely to be achieved in association with two other developments.
The first of those is the operation of international agreement and controlled
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disarmament, which would cover Germany as well as other Powers and which, if we made a real effort, seems to be far more within our grasp now than it was a year or two ago. The second development is the conclusion of an all-inclusive European security pact on the lines of the Geneva Protocol of 1924, through which the United States of America, Russia, ourselves and both the Western and Eastern States of Europe guarantee one another against any possibility of German aggression, while, at the same time, Germany, in turn, undertakes to act against aggression by any other Power. I believe that a new initiative on those lines is required and that the Government ought to take immediate steps, with our Allies, to discuss proposals of this kind. Certainly, it is the case that the longer the reunification of Germany is put off, the more difficult it will be to achieve.
Europe needs help from Britain. At present, the European nations are going on their own through the Six in connection with the common market, coal and steel and other things. We have here a tremendous opportunity for some unification of European countries. I would say there was no greater achievement if it could be got than that we should have some form of European organisation for the development of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. The French Assembly was discussing this the other day and the French Prime Minister's speech made it quite clear that they were not tied entirely to Euratom, but were prepared to consider with others any method by which there could be this general European approach to the use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. I hope that the Government will take up what was said in the French Assembly on 12th July on this question and see whether it is possible to achieve a common European organisation that can turn our scientific genius into a help for Europe and humanity as a whole.
I believe, as I said earlier, that the whole emphasis should be changed from the military aspect to the economic aspect. Britain's place in the world is not that of the giant power. The U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. hold that position. This country has a tremendous moral effect and influence in the world which we should not lose, and if Britain is to succeed in using her moral influence she

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will have to be economically prosperous and powerful.
It would be very much better if we could get agreement by which we were able to secure substantial reductions in our armament programme and devote them to capital investment, both at home and abroad, and make our greater contribution through the United Nations to economic development in the underdeveloped areas of the world.
The Government should no longer wait for the conclusion of satisfactory disarmament agreements before they agree to do something about S.U.N.F.E.D. Let us make a start with this United Nations Fund for Economic Development now. Do not let us wait until we have begun to save some money. Countries are crying out for this help, and we ought to start. I beg the Government to think again about S.U.N.F.E.D. and not to remain outside until they have settled the political problems of the world.
We must make a start now, because we have got to match the new ideas of Mr. Khrushchev and the rapid industrialisation of States under Russian control, which has brought a good deal of human misery. We have got to match those ideas by helping countries towards industrialisation and the freedom and liberty of their people and human understanding. This cannot be done unless we ourselves are in a position financially to build up our economy, enabling us to do it as a result of our own endeavours and our own work.
We cannot accept under any circumstances the Communist philosophy. We believe in human freedom. At the same time, we have to live together in this one world and we shall be able to compete materially and spiritually with the Communist philosophy. We want to make our contribution to world prosperity with human freedom, and what we have to do is to prove, particularly to the uncommitted nations of the world, which embrace so many hundreds of millions of people, that our way of life is a good way of life, that we can build up human prosperity, that we can build up the standards of living of people and that we can do it with human liberty and personal freedom.
It seems to me that if we are prepared to approach these world problems from a
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world basis, using world authority and the United Nations as the instrument, we can make such a contribution that when the balance sheet is reckoned up people will freely choose our way of life because we shall have proved it to be the best.
4.57 p.m.
Mr. Kenneth Pickthorn: I have no solutions to offer for any problem and, indeed, I have hardly any connected argument to offer, so I hope that I shall be short in the comments that I wish to make on the two speeches which have preceded mine.
The main argument, as I understood it, of the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens)—if I might have his attention—
Mr. James Callaghan: Why should he be bothered with the hon. Member?
Mr. Pickthorn: It is polite for speakers to follow other speeches if asked to do so. I understood the right hon. Gentleman's main arguments to be, first, for much more in the way of United Nations management of great affairs; secondly, for much more in the way of economic assistance to what are called the underdeveloped nations; and thirdly, that our first strategic consideration should be the preservation of our domestic prosperity, on the paradoxical argument that without that we should not be able to maintain our strategic power. I believe the third argument to be so paradoxical that really it is plainly mistaken. I believe the argument about getting either gratitude or peace in various territories in the world by doing economic and material good there is a mistake also.
I do not for a moment suggest that we ought not to do what we can in our interests and in the interests of distant populations so to behave that their prosperity shall advance along with ours. But, in fact, we have so behaved during the last 200 years that prosperity has advanced immensely, and what only 100 or 200 years ago would have been thought to be incredibly advanced in those portions of the globe where we had very much influence either by exercising administrative power or by commercial activities. Nobody thinks that what we have done in those parts has now assured us of their gratitude or assured the world

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of peace in those parts, and I do not believe that any reasonable man would dare to assume, whatever may be going to happen with atomic science and electronics and all the rest of it, that anything we can now do is going to do more for material advance overseas than what we have done during the last 200 years. So I hope that we shall not too easily believe that argument.
I thought the right hon. Gentleman really gave away one of the fatal habits of mind of most of his friends when he told us on this side that we made the mistake of mixing up the duties of politicians and administrators. Apparently, all the politician needs to do is to express in familiar language something which he feels fairly sure everybody will cheer as desirable, and then he may leave it to the administrators to see that the thing happens. Really, I do not believe that that is at all the way that the thing can be done.
Nor do I think it is really very helpful to suggest that British authority should be used to compel the various Arab States to pool their financial resources. Perhaps that would be a very good thing, but I do not think we should very easily get more co-operation and peace in Europe by arranging that the influence of Argentina and Bolivia should be powerful enough to compel us to pool our financial resources and our raw materials. I do not think that the thing would happen that way.
Nor do I think it really fair, this continuous argument from almost everybody on the other side about the importance of defending the Zionist State, the assumption that the first, if not almost the sole, motive of British policy ought to be to make sure that it is defended. I do not think that that really is in the interest of anyone; certainly not of the Jews all over the world, nor, in the long run, in the interests of the Zionist State. I do not think that all the facts as they are at present justify the assumptions continually made upon the other side that the Zionist State has relatively lost power of defence recently.
"Time"—
said Mr. Ben Gurion in the middle of June—
"is supposed to be on our enemies' side, but in this last eight years we have doubled our
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material strength and we have much more than doubled our moral strength, which is the most important strength of all. With all their Mig 15s, I do not think Arab strength has doubled."
He ought to know about that, and we, when it is continuously argued that we should provide more arms on Israel's side, ought to believe it possible that that may be mistaken.
I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman adopt the argument that the main line for defending our attitude in Cyprus is the necessity for remaining in the Middle East, but I thought he treated it with less than logic when he went on to argue that really we ought to get out of the Middle East, and that there should be an embargo on arms to the Middle East and that everybody would be on the embargo, Russia as well as the United States. Is it really believed that we shall get Russia to agree to an arrangement whereby there is no force in or near the Middle East except the British force in Cyprus? I think that that really is a quite useless line of approach to the difficulty of defending the Middle East.
Now I want to turn to what is the far more important speech—if it is not unkind to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth of me to say so—of the Prime Minister. [Laughter.] Obviously it is. I am not suggesting for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth is less important than anyone on earth; only that speeches made by a Prime Minister are necessarily more important than speeches of those not in office.
Mr. Hugh Dalton: We are listening to the least important speech yet.
Mr. Pickthorn: Much the least important, I quite agree.
I thought great encouragement could be taken from the Prime Minister's rejection—so to speak, in advance—of the argument that the way for us to be strategically stronger is for us most of all to care about our internal wealth and comfort. There has been so much talk in the newspapers of all colours as if that were the obvious next line to take, that I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend for having made it quite clear that that is not the view he takes.
I am a little afraid that I must have said before what I am about to say, and

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that is very hard on the right hon. Gentleman opposite who so much dislikes hearing me. It is that I do not know anything about the next war.
Mr. Robens: I am not surprised at that.
Mr. Pickthorn: I know something about the last one, and something about the one before that, and indirectly some others, which is more than can be said for everyone.
The right hon. Gentleman advised us not to think that we can solve the problem in the terms of the mid-nineteenth century, and of course we cannot, but neither can we solve the problem in the terms of the mid-twenty-first century. We have to do the best we can with the light which comes in now, and some of it started coming in a long time ago; that is true historically as well as astronomically. I do not know a great deal about the next war, but I know one or two things. One is that the next war is never very much like the last war, and another is that it is never at all like what the most loquacious experts told us it was going to be like. Of those two things, I think, one can be reasonably certain.
I find, in my experience of those two facts, some reason for thinking my right hon. Friend on this matter a little optimistic. I want to ask one question, which is quite new—perhaps this is light from the twenty-first century—so new that hon. Gentlemen may think it quite childish and imbecile, and, perhaps, it is. I am not sure. It is this. Can anybody yet guess whether there is any possibility within a generation or two of atomic explosives being at the disposal of others than Governments?
A great political truth in the world's history which is generally forgotten is that when the sword—we still speak of "the sword" as if the sword were the weapon—when the sword ceased to be the weapon all the politics of the world were altered. In the old days any man with a long knife in his hand was about as well armed as any other man, and all the politics of the world were altered when that ceased to be true—not many generations ago. How certain can we be that atomic weapons will not be procurable by those who control great industrial power, without necessarily the consent, and, it may even be, without the knowledge, of Governments? How sure can
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we be of that? Unless the answer to that is not only negative, but positively and certainly and convincingly negative, a great deal about the talk of the pacific effect of atomic developments becomes, to put it at the least, unreliable. I offer that suggestion to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen.
I suggest with the utmost diffidence to my right hon. Friend that it is possible to believe that he is being a little optimistic about the changes that have happened and are likely to happen in Russia. I well understand that upon such a matter he must be immensely better informed than I am, and that if he and I are inclined to disagree about it any sensible man would opt for his view and not for mine. I have done the best I can by reading the newspapers, Mr. Khrushchev's speech, German, Swiss, French and other newspapers, and so on, to see what is happening, and it seems to me that there is great risk of over-optimism in this matter.
My right hon. Friend spoke of the need for patience in diplomacy, and with that we all agree, especially of patience so that we may help to get more confidence from Russia, and then as a byproduct of that confidence to get agreement on a German election. I think that I am representing my right hon. Friend fairly. I find it impossible to believe, on the impression that I have got of what has happened and is happening in Russia, that that will happen. I find it impossible to believe that Russia would ever do anything that got her out of Eastern Germany or, for that matter the Baltic States, because she had come to trust us. Because she trusts her preponderance as compared with us sufficiently to think that whatever happens she can go back if she chooses—yes; but I find it difficult to believe that the Khrushchev Government or any other Government in Russia will think, "The British are not so bad, they will not attack us suddenly when they are not expected, and therefore, we can now afford to allow elections in Germany."
I should like to ask a question, if I may, of my right hon. Friend about the limitation of tests of hydrogen bombs, and so on. I quite understand that nothing very exact can possibly be said by him or anyone else at this stage, but if it is at all possible—and if it is at all

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possible I hope that it will be possible today—I would ask my right hon. Friend to indicate what is meant by talking of being reasonably fair to all concerned. What is reasonably fair to us who are on the verge of having atomic weapons, to the two Powers who have them and to all the people who have not got them, when there is public, generalised, universal limitation of these tests? I have no idea at all, I say, not meaning to be derisive, but I shall be glad if anybody has any idea of the kind of principle by which we might get at something which might be, and might be thought to be, reasonably fair. It would very much help if we had some indication of these principles as they are conceived.
Lastly, I return to something which I have said once already, to assert it once more. It is that I understand, for what that is worth, and I am sure that the House of Commons and the country are extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend for having made it quite plain in his speech, that he does not believe, that he is not even tempted by the argument, that to protect our people against foreigners is too expensive and therefore we must do something else.
Everybody knows that we can starve ourselves to death or break our backs by overloading ourselves with arms, and we can make it easier to use our money for other purposes by not having any arms. The second may be pleasant for the short run. The first may contain some grains of heroism. What politicians have to do is to find some line somewhere in between; I do not prescribe where: but anyone who looks at this country, at its resources or its habits of consumption compared with any other country in the world, with one possible exception, anyone who is conscious and especially those who are regretful of the fact that the power of this country, taken all over the world, is very much less than it has been—anyone with those things in mind must believe that at this moment for a British Government to do less than they can, or to ask for less sacrifices than they could reasonably ask for, for the defence of their own people, to do that at this moment would be to pile on imbecility of intention the most ignoble unworthiness to succeed, the most ignoble defeatism.
5.16 p.m.
Mr. John Dugdale: I will confine my remarks exclusively to the Middle East. We are dealing with a very wide subject today and we have to some extent to limit ourselves to certain parts of the vast sphere of foreign affairs. I notice that The Times today, in a rather unusually acid leader, said that the Government was composed of men
"… slow to make up their mind and quick to change it."
It seems to me that that is particularly true in the Middle East. We have suffered for some time from a policy which is trying to make friends with everybody without being clear who our friends are.
I suggest that we have two friends in the Middle East. The first is quite obviously Israel, for three reasons. She is our friend, first, because we have played a large part in the creation of the State of Israel; and, secondly, because she is a democracy and democracies are exceedingly rare flowers in the Middle East. Thirdly, she is our friend because she happens to like us. Those seem to me to be good reasons for saying that Israel is a friend.
If she is a friend, what shall we do to help her? My right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) referred to the arms embargo and to the need to see that Israel had a fair share of the arms. He said all that it is necessary to say. All of us on this side of the House would support him in the line he took as to the need for Israel to have the weapons she needs, which are obviously entirely defensive, such as antiaircraft weapons.
I want to deal in particular with another manner in which Israel has been attacked by the Arab States—the economic boycott. In September, 1952, the Arab League made certain regulations which stated that foreign firms are liable to be boycotted if they own an assembly plant in Israel, if they maintain a general agency in Israel, if they concede to Israeli firms the right to use their name, or if they invest in an Israeli firm. That has never before been said to a British firm, and I do not think that any other country has issued an ultimatum of that kind to the firms of another country.
A firm in England may receive, and firms very often do receive, a telephone

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message saying, "Will you give us the name of your agent in Israel?" The firm naturally gives it and it then receives the reply, "We are the so-and-so Embassy" —naming an Arab Embassy— "We have noted that you have an agency in Israel, and we will act accordingly." Is that the kind of thing the existence of which the Government think is desirable? It is having an effect on our trade in different directions. To take an example from the sale of cigarettes, the powerful British firm, the British-American Tobacco Company, which might provide a useful export trade today to counterbalance our enormous import of tobacco, was constrained to refuse to supply cigarettes for export to Israel. Apparently this refusal is to continue indefinitely, until such time as the Arab countries give permission for cigarettes to be exported to Israel.
It is not only a matter of private traders. B.O.A.C. is today being faced with this economic blockade. It previously flew planes through the airport of Lydda. Now it has stopped flying planes there and has said, apparently, that for economic reasons they do not wish to have a service operating through Lydda and Tel-Aviv. Yet strangely enough, they have increased the service to Beirut, which is only a comparatively few miles away. Other countries have not been so frightened. The Belgians, the Swiss and the Americans all send planes to Tel-Aviv, disregarding the warning given them by the Arab countries.
Why is it that Britain alone is afraid of the warning? Why is it that Britain alone is cutting her trade with Israel while other countries are not being intimidated, in particular Germany? Germany has said plainly that she refuses to be intimidated by those methods, and that she will continue to trade with Israel just as much as she wishes.
We have done something, however, in the face of this threat. On 28th February last Lord Reading said in another place that Her Majesty's Government had "protested". When asked whether the Government would appeal to U.N.O., he said that he would continue to bear it in mind. It is good to know that the noble Marquis will bear these things in mind. I hope that will impress the Israeli Government. I hope it will impress the British firms which are suffering as a result of that action. I hope that the
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noble Marquis will live for many years but, when the time comes for him to go across to the other side, if he should at any time meet Lord Palmerston, there might be an interesting conversation between the two noble Lords.
I should like to see us take a stronger line with the Egyptian delegation now in this country. Can we not tell them that, if they continue to intimidate British firms, we will refuse to buy, for instance, Egyptian onions or dates? There are many things we could refuse to buy, and that would warn the Arab peoples that we do not stand for intimidation.
Mr. William Yates: What about oil?
Mr. Dugdale: Oil is another question. We might buy more oil from other places if we could, but the most useful and sensible thing to do would be to refuse to buy the things which are least necessary to us.
I said that we could have two friends. It is often the case that one's friends do not like each other. The second friend I suggest we could have in the Middle East certainly does not like Israel. I am referring to Iraq. If, however, we are to have a friend in the Arab countries, let us make up our minds that it is Iraq and not have a side bet on Egypt.
I know that there have been great developments in strengthening our relations with Iraq, but all the time that country must feel that we have not finally made up our minds that she is our friend and that we want to help Colonel Nasser to build himself up as a rival force in the Arab world against Iraq. Until we make it quite clear that it is Iraq and not Egypt which we support among the Arab countries, we cannot have a firm and definite foreign policy in the Middle East.
The Government were right in their Bagdad Pact. They were right in that conception, but they were painfully wrong in their method of execution. I cannot imagine anything more stupid than to send to negotiate this pact with Jordan a general who made his name in putting down a colonial revolt. The Government seem to find it impossible to discover any of their own number to send out on these negotiations, and they continue to rely in Jordan, as in Cyprus, on one general after another carrying out their policy. We think that generals are not the best people

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to carry out these policies, and that this work should be done by the politicians responsible, or at least by ordinary civil servants.
I welcome the change of front which has taken place in the last few days. It is a good thing that the Government have decided not to pour out millions on the Aswan Dam project. However, it would have been better if we had been the first to suggest that, or if not the first, that at least the statement had coincided with the American statement rather than that it should have followed twenty-four hours afterwards, making it appear as if we had not intended to make that decision but had been forced into it by the Americans. The Americans may well have done this for the wrong reason and at the wrong time but I am glad that it has been done, because there are many better ways of spending our slender financial resources than by giving them to Egypt. T hope that this is one aspect of Government policy which will be adhered to, and that the Government will not reverse it and decide that, after all, some money will be given for the project.
As a result of this decision, coupled with various other factors, we may find that the balance of power in the Middle East is gradually shifting from Colonel Nasser and from Egypt. After all, Egypt is fundamentally a much poorer and weaker country than Iraq. If the balance of power shifts to Iraq, we shall find that instead of having, in Egypt, a friend which spends its time blackguarding us day after day, we shall have, in Iraq, a friend who really is a friend. Although as I have said, Iraq and Israel do not see eye to eye, we shall be able to build upon them a basis of friendship which up to date has been sadly lacking in the Middle East.
5.28 p.m.
Mr. John Biggs-Davison: If I followed the right hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) in all he said, I fear that I should come under the censure of the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) for having dealt with detail, rather as an administrator, instead of, as a politician, with broad principles of policy. However, I should like to express my agreement with the right hon. Gentleman that this country is right to pursue a firm policy in its dealings with
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the revolutionary junta in Cairo and I add my congratulations to Her Majesty's Government for the decision which they have taken over the Aswan Dam project.
I shall address myself to questions of European policy, to which the right hon. Member for Blyth referred in the latter part of his speech. As he said, this country possessed great moral influence, and I agree with him that moral influence should be based on economic power. I also agree with the right hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members that of late the power of this country in many theatres of the world has declined, but Europe, I believe, remains a theatre in which the power and influence of Britain can still be, and should be, decisive.
There are two likely leaders of Europe, and one of them is Germany. Europeans whom Britain inspired during the war looked to London when the war was over for leadership, for leadership in withstanding with American help the further advance of Russia, leadership in staving off economic collapse and in regaining economic independence. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite were then in power. They deserve credit for the prominent part which their Administration played in the various inter-governmental organs of European recovery and Western defence. It was in their day that the countries of O.E.E.C. became linked through London to the sterling area. We owe to their Administration the European Payments Union. We owe to them the Brussels Treaty upon which the Prime Minister was able to build the edifice of Western European Union when E.D.C. collapsed. Western European Union is something which I hope will be more greatly used in the future and perhaps, in due time, extended to other members of the Council of Europe as well.
After the signing of the Brussels Treaty, Mr. Bevin made a speech in this House in which he spoke not only of metropolitan Europe but of the Europe beyond the seas, that Europe beyond the seas without which metropolitan Europe cannot prosper. Mr. Bevin made it perfectly clear in that speech that he knew and believed that the solvency and integrity of Europe was an interest not only of the United Kingdom but of the whole Commonwealth as well. Mr. Bevin referred in particular to Africa, Africa which gives depth to our defence and

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strength to our economy, so that to Europe the Mediterranean is an inland sea.
Mr. Bevin said this:
"If Western Europe is to achieve its balance of payments and to get a world equilibrum, it is essential that those resources "—
those of the overseas territories
"should be developed "—
in many ways.
"We intend to develop the economic cooperation between Western European countries step by step, to develop the resources of the territories with which we are associated, to build (hem up a system of priorities which will produce the quickest, most effective and most lasting results for the whole world. We hope that other countries with dependent territories will do the same in association with us. "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd January, 1948; Vol. 446, c. 398–9.]
That was a fine plan, but it remained a plan. In the day of that Labour Administration, Great Britain, which would have marked out the course for Europe to follow towards unity, surrendered her moral leadership to continental politicians in France and elsewhere, who proceeded to make their plans in rigid federal terms. I am afraid that right hon. Gentlemen opposite at that time were the captives of ideology and insularity. I am not going to suggest that insularity has been confined to that side of the House. It was, I believe, in the time of a Conservative Administration that the Post Office used to stamp upon letters the reminder that postage to Europe is 4d., thus assuming that Great Britain is not a part of Europe. However, the tendency began in the Labour Governments after the war always to damn the aspirations of continental Europe with faint praise.
The Labour Party was perfectly right to make clear that Great Britain could not join a European federation because of her first duty to the Commonwealth. On this there is no difference between us. Britain is the centre of a society of sovereignties which have forsworn for themselves any idea of a federal super Government. We cannot enter into a closer relationship with the continent than with our Commonwealth partners, because our partnership is in not one continent but all the continents.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) told the American Congress in January, 1952:
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"The British Commonwealth of Nations, spread all over the world, is not prepared to become a group of States in any continental federal system on either side of the Atlantic."
I believe that Europe resembles the Commonwealth in that it also is a society of nations. I notice that The Times, in its very interesting leading article today, suggests that:
"… the old dreams of early federation …"
have faded, and that:
"… the greatest barrier to Britain's participation in plans for closer economic and fiscal partnership …"
in Europe have thus faded. The article puts this question:
"How far are the Government ready to go?"
I am not so sure that all those old dreams have faded. I think that they remain in the minds of some of the continental statesmen who have been making their proposals for a European common market and for Euratom. I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) who has placed upon the Order Paper an Amendment to a Motion in which he draws upon the wisdom and prescience of Disraeli to point out that there is a federal aspect of this present plan for a common market upon which the Government and the House are called upon to make up their minds.
[That this House regrets the repeated attempts made since 1940 to federate Europe by economic means, and so to tie the United Kingdom to a system as alien as it would be dangerous to the individual traditions of the States concerned; and calls to mind the words of Benjamin Disraeli, to the effect that it was very desirable that the people of England should arrive at some conclusions as to the conditions on which the government of Europe could be carried on: that they would, perhaps, after due reflection, discover that ancient communities like the European must be governed either by traditionary influences or by military force; that those who, in the ardour of renovation, imagined that there was a third mode and that our societies could be reconstituted on the great transatlantic model, would find that when they had destroyed the traditionary influences there would be peculiar features in their body politic which did not obtain in the social standard which they imitated, and that these might be described as elements of

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disturbance; that, in this state of affairs, after a due course of paroxysms, for the sake of maintaining order and securing the rights of industry, the State quitted the Senate and took refuge in the camp.]
Mr. Geoffrey Rippon: Is my hon. Friend aware that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) distorts Disraeli in his Amendment in so far as Disraeli, in the passage quoted, meant to refer only to British intervention in the internal affairs of other countries, and that in fact Disraeli, as much as anyone else, believed that Britain should play a part in European affairs?
Mr. Biggs-Davison: I do not propose to enter into that discussion, but if it is of any comfort to my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Rippon), I have another quotation from Disraeli which I propose to use before I sit down.
The foreign policy of the United States, is, I suppose, in a state of hibernation, but I believe that it remains one of the settled principles of American foreign policy to further by many means the formation of a European federation as an element in a future Atlantic Empire or union. I think that it is a tendency of the United States, and, indeed, of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, to imagine that their type of constitutional arrangements have universal applicability. I sometimes wonder also—I hope I am not being unduly suspicious—whether there is not a school of thought in the State Department or elsewhere which has learned a great deal from the European policies of past British Governments and with the aim of making Europe more manageable has recommended a form of union which would inevitably exclude Great Britain from membership even though that form of union might in time become a new German Empire and further divide Europe in the name of European unity.
As recently as 25th May this year President Eisenhower spoke of the "United States of Europe". He spoke of the great prospect of "250 million highly civilised people" as
"… a mighty pillar of free strength in the modern world".
He spoke also of
"… the great pride of each nation in separate existence"
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as an obstacle to European union on the trans-Atlantic model. I think that the great pride of each European nation in its separate existence is indeed an obstacle to federal union in Europe, but it can be a source of strength to union of another kind.
It is true that nationalism has revived, but nationalism is not always a destructive force. The whole sad story of E.D.C. is evidence of that. The President went on to say:
"We of course appreciate the weight of such considerations and are therefore fortunate even though the history of this the largest of our States"—
he was speaking at Baylor University in Texas—
"refutes the fears that seem to loom so large in Europe."
I do not think that the status of Texas is one which commends itself to either Germany or France.
On the other hand, there is a laudable determination on the Continent of Europe to form an independent system and an economic area which can stand erect. I was recently at a conference in Brussels of the European League for Economic Co-operation. Members from both sides of the House were present. We were addressed by the Belgian Minister of Economic Affairs, who said that the British would be sorry if the common market failed and would be very embarrassed if it succeeded.
I hope that Britain will be neither sorry nor embarrassed. It is quite true that the common market could lead to German predominance. It could lead to the exclusion of British exports from important Continental markets. It could produce very formidable competition in overseas markets, but it would be wrong for us to be destructive. It is for us to propose the sort of conditions under which we could associate ourselves with so constructive and imaginative a proposal. Those of us who were at Brussels found that many of the Continental statesmen who are behind this plan are anxious—and we should be anxious—to reconcile the desire and the need for closer economic unity with Imperial Preference and Great Britain's Commonwealth position.
Proposals were worked out in the Council of Europe several years ago

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under which that reconciliation could have taken place. It is true that the proposals of the Strasbourg Plan, involving a system of secondary preferences, called in question the whole most-favoured-nation principle contained in G.A.T.T. and other agreements, but the time has come when people of all sorts are willing to reconsider those agreements.
I understand that the Board of Trade was in some difficulty at a recent meeting of O.E.E.C. because it saw the disadvantage of lowering tariffs within a European group when the unconditional mostfavoured-nation principle, upon which our international trading policy is supposed to be based, means that a concession made within the group, must also be extended to outside countries.
I think that those Continental politicians whom we met in Brussels were anxious that the common market should be made flexible enough to receive countries other than the six founder members. I am sure that the common market must be viewed in the wider framework of our European policy. We must have regard to the problem of German reunification. We must not forget the imprisoned peoples of the Warsaw Pact. Remembering what happened at Poznan, we must not lose sight of the aim of re-establishing the frontiers of Western Christendom. But when the knout of Soviet control is lifted from the backs of the peoples of Central and Eastern Europe we need not suppose that they will rush to embrace Western liberal principles of free trade and free enterprise.
Some may wish to retain special economic relations with the rouble area. After all, Canada has special relations with the dollar area while being a member of the Ottawa system of Commonwealth preference. The controlled economies of the East attach particular importance to an almost meticulous balance of payments and for that reason a common market, or system of preferential arrangements, rather than a customs union, or common market of too hard and fast a kind, is more likely to attract those countries of Central and Eastern Europe to our European system.
Before I sit down I must disburden myself of another quotation from Disraeli. This is from the speech which he made at the Guildhall in 1879. It is the speech in which he inscribed upon the
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banners of the Tory Party the motto of Imperium et Libertas. It is just as well for me to say that in order that, in expressing my devotion to the cause of European unity, I should not be accused of luke-warmness towards the Empire and the Commonwealth. He said:
"If there be a country, for example, one of the most extensive and wealthiest empires in the world—if that country, from a perverse interpretation of its insular geographical position, turns an indifferent ear to the feelings and the fortunes of Continental Europe, such a course would, I believe, only end in its becoming an object of general plunder."
Lord Beaconsfield went on to say:
"So long as the power and advice of England are felt in the councils of Europe, peace, I believe, will be maintained, and maintained for a long period."
Mr. Rippon: Before my hon. Friend sits down, will he bear in mind, when discussing Disraeli's view, what he said to the effect that:
"… I am far from wishing to enforce a pedantic adherence to that passive policy which, in the barbarous dialect of the day, is called 'non-intervention.' On the contrary, I am persuaded that, in the settlement of the great affairs of Europe, the presence of England is the best guarantee of peace."
On page 186 of Vol. III of Monypenny and Buckle's Life of Disraeli, Earl of Beaconsfield, there is a warning against:
"a very superficial reading of his speeches…"
which have led some people to misinterpret them and to call him a non-interventionist in Europe.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: Monypenny and Buckle is my constant guide.
5.50 p.m.
Mr. Christopher Mayhew: The hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) and the hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Rippon) must forgive me if I do not follow them by adding my own interpretation of these sacred texts of Disraeli. I can only say that, having listened carefully to the rival interpretations, both seemed to me to have similar characteristics, namely, of starting from inadmissible premises and arguing rather illogically to surprisingly harmless and platitudinous conclusions. That is probably the best that can be said of Disraeli's words as a guide to Britain's problems in the years we live in today.
Turning to the Prime Minister's speech, I would say that it seemed to me that,

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within the narrow limits which he set himself, his statement was an admirable one. Upon the question of nuclear tests, his statement cleared up a thoroughly unsatisfactory situation which had existed up till then. In connection with Germany, I am glad that he mentioned the importance of the possibility of thinning out the troops, with the consequent contribution towards creating conditions of German unity by agreement with the Soviet Union. That always seemed to me to be an excellent approach, which I believe the Prime Minister himself put forward originally, and which was dropped without good cause in the Geneva discussions last year.
With regard to the interpretation of the changes in the Communist world, I imagine that it will be generally agreed by hon. Members on both sides of the House that one thing that follows plainly is the fact that the House is entitled to expect an announcement of very substantial cuts in our defence in the debate which takes place next week. The interpretation which the Prime Minister gave seems consistent with that and not with any other attitude towards defence. I think that he is quite right. Most hon. Members probably agree that there is a relaxation of military rivalry between East and West, thanks to the H-bomb deadlock, to the death of Stalin and other factors of that kind. I should imagine that hon. Members on both sides of the House also agree that the nature of power in world affairs is changing, and that political and economic factors are becoming of much greater importance relative to military factors.
As a result of all this, we have to reassess the scale of N.A.T.O.'s military strength, which at present seems to be rather anomalous. It is neither big enough to give us a chance of repulsing any Soviet attack, and yet too big to act in any trip-wire rôle and too big to allow the West to deploy its full strength in the new and ever-increasingly important fields of economics and politics. One has only to look at the division of our own efforts in the defence of freedom, between our military and economic effort, and our effort in the war of ideas, to see that there is a fantastic disproportion at the present time. Nearly £1,500 million is spent upon armed defence, about £120 million upon long-term lending overseas, and £11 million to cover our whole effort in the
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war of ideas. What might have been a proper allocation of effort in Stalin's day looks antediluvian today in the changed circumstances in which we find ourselves.
I thought that the Prime Minister, having made those points, would have gone on to emphasise the danger—which seems to me to be an important one—that the improved situation may cause not only a revised military effort over N.A.T.O., which is desirable, but political disunity and the breaking up of N.A.T.O.—which might be premature and very dangerous. There are already certain signs of this. The last meeting of the North Atlantic Council was a failure, for political reasons.
Cyprus, which is a dispute between members of N.A.T.O., has now reached the stage where, according to what I read, British and Turkish military attachés are being excluded from the N.A.T.O. exercises in Greece, while military attachés from countries outside N.A.T.O., including, ironically, the Saudi-Arabian military attaché, are invited. We know that the Algerian troubles have weakened France's contribution to N.A.T.O., and we see unilateral decisions constantly being taken in the military and political field by members of N.A.T.O., which, if we are not careful, will lead to a general political break-up in N.A.T.O.
We must draw a clear distinction between cutting the scale of N.A.T.O.'s military effort on the one hand, and undermining the political front which N.A.T.O. must keep up as a defence of freedom. There is a need for more political unity in N.A.T.O. rather than less; more economic unity between the members of N.A.T.O. rather than less, and more standardisation and integration of the lower level of arms which we are proposing to maintain in the future.
We must recognise that, although the nature of the East-West struggle has changed, the struggle itself has not disappeared. It is important that we should distinguish what has changed and what has not upon the other side of the Iron Curtain. What has obviously changed is the Soviet method of seeking power in world affairs. Stalin's methods, which he used in Korea and Berlin, of violence and the threat of violence, are no longer acceptable to the Soviet leaders. No one can doubt that. Moreover, the tempo

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and urgency with which the Soviet Union is seeking world power has quite plainly relaxed since Stalin's day.
In the old days, just after the war, it was possible to read speeches and propaganda by Soviet leaders and in Soviet journals which indicated that they expected that Europe as a whole would go Communist within a matter of years after the end of the war. Today, when we study their speeches, and talk to them—which is much easier than it used to be—we can see that the Communist millennium has, in their minds, been considerably postponed. We are now considered by them likely to remain non-Communist for decades at least, which was not the case a short time ago.
Other changes of a very hopeful nature have clearly taken place. Actions in Austria, in connection with disarmament; in relation to Yugoslavia and in South Viet-nam—where the Soviet Union has taken up a surprisingly moderate position in recent months—cannot be denied to have contributed to peace. There is also the difference that the Soviet Union is making some effort to break down the crippling isolation in which it was placed by Stalin. Today, for two hours each day, B.B.C. transmissions are received quite clearly, without jamming, in the Soviet Union—and there is plenty of evidence that the people are taking advantage of that fact.
Those are changes which we must recognise as having happened, and we must adapt ourselves to them. But other things are continuing just as they were before. The Soviet leaders are still thinking of acting in terms of a power struggle between East and West. They are still thinking of the East as a single bloc, struggling for power with the West, and with a certainty of Communist victory in the future. As a result, the Communist countries have a complete unity in foreign policy, which is unthinkable among the Western Powers. They act as a single unit at the United Nations and upon such problems as Germany, China, Israel and Egypt. Their propaganda is co-ordinated, not only in what they say but as to the very words and phrases which they use. Except for Yugoslavia, which is a special case, they indulge in no open criticism of each other. There is far less difference of view
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between them. It is impossible to conceive, as between Poland and Czechoslovakia, that there could be a bitter quarrel such as exists between Turkey and Greece over Cyprus.
In practice, it is quite plain that one thing which has not changed has been the fact that Communist countries are still working as an integrated bloc struggling for power with the West. They are united in a political and economic drive for power. We wish it were not so. We hope that it will change. But these are the assumptions that we must bear in mind in framing our policy. It is not only a question of their practice but their theory. Last month, Mr. Khrushchev made a full-dress speech, of which I should like to quote an extract. It is important to remember it as a check upon the improvements that we have seen in Soviet thinking. Mr. Khrushchev said:
"There exists today a world of Socialist States in which the working class, the working peasantry and intellectuals are building Socialism under the guidance of Communist Workers' and Socialist Parties. This world is growing stronger…. There also exists a world of capitalist States, whose economy is developing in the interests of the further enrichment of capitalist monopolies through mounting exploitation of the working people"
this is the point—
"The existence of two social and political systems, opposed to each other, is an undeniable fact. To refuse to recognise it is to ignore realities."
Mr. K. Zilliacus: That I believe is a statement from the "Dynamo speech" in which Mr. Khrushchev also spoke of the existence of a third group of ex-colonial States and said that it was the desire of the Soviet Union to base their relations with all States on the principles of the Baudoeng Conference.
Mr. Mayhew: Yes, I think that is quite consistent. Mr. Khrushchev has frequently made that kind of statement. But, if we may exchange sacred texts, the text of Pravda on Saturday bore out exactly what I am saying, that the thinking of Soviet leaders is still essentially Marxist. If one is a Marxist or a Leninist, one cannot interpret the world otherwise than an inevitable struggle between forces which one calls "Socialism" and "Capitalism". It is important for us to remember that that

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is still the basic thinking of Communist leaders. We can argue about what they call a "Socialist" country. I do not know whether Marx would call a country like Poland "Socialist", where the workers have just and bitter grievances and are shot for expressing them. But it is unfortunately true that the Soviet leaders are still thinking in those terms and we must base our policy on that assumption.
I would say that the time for the West to disarm politically—I am not talking about military disarmament—will be when the Soviet leaders abandon some of these—to my mind—idiotic and dangerous ideas. In the meantime, the line should be to work for better relations between the Western bloc and the Eastern bloc, as blocs, and not to allow the political disarmament of the Western bloc at this time.
At the moment both sides continue military disarmament unilaterally, and we can welcome that within limits, although it would be better if it were organised. But only the West is disarming in the political field, and that is a great danger. We all hope that the improvements which we have seen in the Communist countries will continue, and there will be more freedom inside the Soviet Union and between the Soviet Union and the satellite countries. But it has not happened yet and we must not assume that it is happening in timing our policy changes.
Indeed, it might go the other way. No doubt the "debunking" of Stalin has been wholehearted. I do not think that anyone who has recently met Russians would question that there is a genuine wish to avoid the recurrence of the horrors of the Stalin régime. But equally it is true that when one meets these people, one discovers that they have no real idea about why Stalinism happened in the first place, and no idea about how to prevent it from happening in the future. They are not seriously questioning the real causes at all—the one-party system, the dictatorship of the proletariat and "democratic centralism."
All these ideas are not even up for discussion in the Soviet Union at the present time. We must face the fact that the same political structure exists in the Soviet Union today as produced Stalin
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in the past. As I say, things have improved. I do not want to paint too black a picture but I cannot feel confident that the present Soviet leaders may not become corrupted by power in the same way as Stalin did. We cannot rely on the Soviet constitution, the Supreme Soviet or the Communist Parties of the Soviet Union to restrain them, be cause they have shown their incapacity.
The changes and trends are at present in the right direction. But I would say that while we need a cut in defence, and should adapt ourselves to the new and improved situation, the future is still obscure in the Communist world, and I can see no hurry whatever about weakening the general principle of N.A.T.O. and the general economic and political unity of its members. We should make our military provisions in concert with our Allies in N.A.T.O. In our East-West relations we should seek to disarm on the helpful lines suggested by the Prime Minister and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), and to follow up the idea of the Prime Minister about Germany, which is constructive, and the ideas of my right hon. Friend.
We shall also continue to normalise relations between East and West. In my opinion that part is going best, and it may be that the changes in that field may prove the most important. The Russians are beginning to spread out and see what the West is really like. There is a long way to go. They are still far behind in free communications with their neighbours; but let us do all we can to remove that isolation and destroy the mysteries between East and West and the unhealthy emotionalism of the past.
While I have the opportunity, as there are now three Ministers on the Government Front Bench, may I put this point, as I am engaged in some of this work myself? It would be most regrettable if the policy of this Government to foster these exchanges became impossible because the Treasury was not brought into line. This is a practical point which I hope the Prime Minister will examine. I am not taking it up violently at the moment, but I do not promise not to do so later if I am not given satisfaction.
I think that the general import of what I am saying is clear. I wish to avoid unilateral political disarmament. I think

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it would be disastrous, if, while the Communists stick together on the assumption that the East-West struggle continues, the countries of the West assume that the East-West struggle is over, and fall apart.
6.8 p.m.
Mr. Clement Davies: I wish to congratulate the Prime Minister on the substance of his speech and sincerely to thank him for its tone and approach to world conditions. It was the most momentous statement that we have heard from the Government Dispatch Box for many years; perhaps the most momentous since the statement which had to be made from that Box that tension in the world was so great that a new organisation was to be formed, namely, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, and that we were to be a party to it.
On that occasion there was a statement about the tension and the danger. On this occasion the Prime Minister has announced definitely to the world at large, from the House of Commons, his view that the tension has lessened and is continuing to lessen, and that the danger of a third world war is now disappearing. I hope that the whole world will give the closest attention to everything said by the right hon. Gentleman. May I also thank him for his statement about nuclear tests. A matter which has been worrying not only hon. Members, but people everywhere, is the tremendous danger to which people think they may be exposed.
Hitherto, scientists have been able to tell us what are the actual dangers resulting from the use of weapons. But they cannot tell us what results may flow from nuclear tests and it is only right that these tests should stop. The proposal of the Prime Minister is right. We should get together to see what can be done, first, to control the tests, and ultimately to stop them.
The right hon. Gentleman has done a great deal of good by reiterating, with more emphasis, our view about the future of Germany, which is that her destiny is in her hands without any interference whatever or pressure from us. All that we desire is that she shall be put into a position to determine her future, and with her decision we shall not interfere. For all these things we are grateful, and, in particular, for the Prime Minister's statement about the disappearance of the clouds of war.
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That may mean that many things will follow. I understand that we shall have a debate next week about the amount of defence that is required. The Prime Minister has led us to think that it is bound to lead to a great diminution in the amount of expenditure that we shall incur in the defence of this country.
The Prime Minister: I do not think that I said anything that could lead to that conclusion. I am grateful for the generous things which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said, but I was very careful in my language on the defence problem. I agree with many of the things that were said by the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew). I made it absolutely clear that defence problems can only be settled in N.A.T.O., by agreement with all our Allies. I feel that very strongly. I am sure that it would be absolutely wrong for us to attempt to do anything else. I am sure, also, that the right hon. and learned Member does not want to give a wrong impression.
Mr. Davies: Let me come to what was said by the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Pickthorn). There is no sacrifice that this country, this amazing people, is not prepared to make in defence of its freedom and independence, or even to assist other people, as we did in two world wars, to maintain their freedom and independence; but it wants to be satisfied that what it is incurring is necessary and that it gets full value for its money.
A point about N.A.T.O. has just been made again by the Prime Minister. When N.A.T.O. was formed, every one of the free countries had to admit that it was not in a strong enough position to stand alone, not even the United States with all its tremendous power. They decided that they would pool their military resources and assist one another as best they could. That system cannot be ended by anybody overnight. Naturally, everything has to be done in conjunction with the other countries who, with us, formed the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. It is obvious—I think I am right in saying this—that the Prime Minister visualises that there will be a reduction in the amount of expenditure, certainly upon conventional weapons. It is obvious from his statement that he has carried the Commonwealth with him in every part; one

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hopes that he will also carry N.A.T.O. with him.
If tension is lessening, and it is obviously so, and if the prospect of a third world war is disappearing—the Prime Minister himself is going to Moscow and is now rightly saying that what is desirable and necessary is greater understanding with Russia and her satellites and a reopening of trade with them—I suggest that what we want to see is not only closer relations and more trade with Russia but the same development towards China. The two obviously go together.
I emphasise once again that the better way is not the belligerent way but the more peaceful way of trade with one another. If this leads to a lessening in our expenditure, as I hope it will, think of the relief which will follow. Not only shall we be able to give more assistance in many directions in this country, but what we shall save upon armaments can be used for greater investment. This will lead to what we all desire, the conquest of inflation.
I believe there will now be not military war but very hot economic war between Russia and ourselves and the other free countries. If N.A.T.O. is not to be so hard pressed by the military situation as it has been, during past years there will be much more need for the N.A.T.O. countries to work together on the economic, social and political side. That is why one must welcome the appointment of Mr. Lester Pearson, Signor Martino and Dr. Lange, and the work that they are doing. We sincerely hope that much good will follow from it.
I would refer to the matter which was so well dealt with by the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison). I recommend to the Prime Minister a careful study of that excellent speech about the position in Europe. I hope that the Government will not follow the bad example of the past about what I still prefer to know as the "Schuman Plan". That example was isolationism; the doctrine of isolationism is very dangerous for this country, which depends upon trade more than does any other country in the world. We have a better standard of life than any other country, not even excepting the United States of America, although it may spend more money individually. I believe
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this is due to the ability of this country to trade.
For us to isolate ourselves on the excuse that we are cut away from Europe and the Commonwealth is bad. The Commonwealth has always desired a closer relationship between us and Europe. That has ever been shown by speeches made from either side of this House. So many people in the Commonwealth originated from European countries that they would like nothing better than closer co-operation between ourselves and European countries. In view of this strong movement in the Commonwealth and the strong movement on the Continent in favour of Euratom, and all the experience of the Schuman Plan, we shall run very great risks if we stand on one side and isolate ourselves.
I would say a few words about the Middle East. The right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), who led for the Opposition this afternoon, called attention to certain figures which, I believe, have been put out by the Government of Israel. They show a tremendous disparity between the military position of Israel and that of Egypt. What is the purpose of Egypt in acquiring that enormous armament? It is either against us or against Israel. It can have no other purpose.
The disparity is very great. Yet we, the United States and France are parties to the Tripartite Declaration, under which we said that we would try to keep the balance. Do we still regard ourselves as bound by that Declaration? If so, what do we intend to do to carry out the word which we solemnly gave? I agree that perhaps the best thing of all would be to deny further arms once the balance had been reached; that would possibly be the best course in the future. But I want to know why, having solemnly entered into an agreement, we do not carry it out and maintain the balance as we said we would.
6.21 p.m.
Mr. Hamilton Kerr: I am sure that the House listened with pleasure to the tributes paid by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and, in particular, to the two points which my right hon. Friend stressed in his speech this

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afternoon—first, that international tension is lessening and, secondly and I believe more important still, that we should do nothing without agreement with our Allies.
Within the context of these two assertions I should like, if I may, to strike a cautious note. I am sufficiently antique in wind and limb now to indulge in the luxury of reminiscence. I remember so vivdly the debates in the House before the war, when people said that butter was better than guns. I remember so vividly the resignation of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at the time of the Spanish Civil War and the resignation of my own chief, Mr. Duff Cooper, later Lord Norwich, who saw so clearly the danger which lay ahead of us.
While we feel that international tension is lessening, may I, nevertheless, refer to the facts of the situation at present? I know that it is argued by many people that the power of the hydrogen and atomic bomb is so great that there can be no victor in any war, that all main cities and military concentrations can be wiped out by it, that even those areas not bombed can be infected by clouds of radioactive dust, and that it would be impossible for a nation, even if it were a victor, to occupy the territory of a conquered nation, much less to administer it.
We are told, likewise, at present, that a situation is developing inside Russia aptly described in the latest novel of Ilya Ehrenburg as "The Thaw". We are told that freedom of discussion is now permitted in Russia. We are told, as my right hon. Friend said in his speech, that more and more men and women are now being released from prison and that the wind of freedom blowing though the prison bars is, at the same time, encouraging the desire for better relations with countries overseas.
All this may be to the good, but may I draw attention to the facts of the balance of power between the two blocs at present? I have tried to obtain the official figures as last issued—namely, 1st April. If we take the story of Soviet power we find that the Russians have altogether about 215 divisions, of which 22 are in Eastern Europe. There are 80 satellite divisions, including seven Eastern German divisions, making a
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rough total of about 300 divisions. On our side there are about 100 divisions in various stages of readiness and preparation, including five American divisions in Europe and four British divisions in Europe. Computed in terms of relative manpower, these figures show that the Russians have about 4,600,000 men under arms, the satellites have about 1,600,000, the Americans have about 2,900,000 and we have about 765,000.
At the same time, we have been told that the Russians possess a powerful submarine fleet, about 300 strong, equipped with long-range submarines able to strike deadly blows at the North and South Atlantic trade routes and the Indian and Pacific Oceans. We therefore see that the balance of power is still potentially very much against us.
I would also draw attention to the various difficulties now existing inside the N.A.T.O. countries. Our great and powerful ally, the United States, will be occupied during the next few months in all the excitements and the rigours of a Presidential election. We have seen the difficulty which President Eisenhower has had in trying to obtain a vote from Congress for foreign aid. We see continually the evidence of a danger of return to that form of isolationism which speaks of "Fortress America" as its first principle.
Our French allies are finding innumerable difficulties in their struggle in Algeria to maintain order in that part of Metropolitan France. In Germany, we see as yet no armed forces in operation, and Dr. Adenauer is seriously disquieted by the talk of a reduction of our military forces. After all, he lives at the very door of the bear's cave.
We ourselves are faced with our two perpetual problems—the necessity to maintain a strategic reserve in this country and, at the same time, to maintain a police force to carry out duties in the many parts of the world in which we are interested.
I fully recognise that the situation may be changing and that economic, social and moral factors may be becoming more important, but I lay it down as a fundamental principle that a nation can be great only if it maintains a balance of economic and of military power at the same time. To neglect one or the other is to ask for almost certain disaster

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In conclusion, I turn to the main theme of my speech. I welcome the two statements of the Prime Minister about a lessening of tension and about the necessity to consult our Allies before we make any move. I believe that, perhaps even more than in the long cold days of the cold war, in these times of apparent lessening tension, the themes of vigilance and unity are important. They are as important as ever. It is to this country, therefore, that the moment of leadership will come, with some of our Allies distracted and with our position here between Europe and the United States.
Mr. Khrushchev quite wrongly said that this country is no longer a great Power. I think he forgets that when we fought the Spain of Philip II, the France of Louis XIV and Napoleon and the Germany of William II and Hitler, we were never superior in numbers. We always won through the quality of our contribution and our moral leadership. That is as true today as it ever was in the past.
6.27 p.m.
Mr. M. Philips Price: The hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Hamilton Kerr) will, I am sure, forgive me if I do not follow him very closely in what he said. I think that the House was interested—certainly, I was—in the figures which he gave of the military forces of the two camps into which the world is unfortunately divided, although we hope that the division will become less. We should not forget that these two camps still exist and we cannot altogether ignore the immediate past.
I want to say a few words about what I conceive to be the reason some changes have taken place in Russia which have, I think, been very largely the cause of the decrease in tension throughout the world. The question we have to decide is whether these changes are permanent or are only temporary.
It seems to me that two factors of great importance have had an effect upon the Russian mentality. First, there is, I think, no question that there has been a change in the internal situation in Russia. A large section of the population, particularly in the towns, has been yearning for better economic conditions. There is no doubt that the Stalin period of intense international tension and threatening war on an international scale caused
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shortages at home. Because of the armaments drive, there was a shortage of consumable goods which resulted in general depression and lack of enthusiasm.
It is true that there have been no strikes in Russia similar to those in Poland and no crisis of that kind. I believe that, fundamentally, the régime in Russia represents the interests of the people of Russia. It has the backing of the bulk of the people, although they may grumble at, and dislike certain phases as they come about.
One of the most important things that has happened there has happened in the agricultural world. I understand—unless things have changed very recently—that the head of livestock in Russia today is less than it was in the days of the Czars, and although agricultural production has gone up it has gone up in nothing like the proportion necessary to stand the enormous increase in industrialisation, and particularly in armament production, that has gone on. There is no doubt that that has caused a lowering of morale and a general feeling of despondency. The rulers in the Kremlin are sensitive to this sort of change, and I think that that is one factor that has brought about this new line which is helping to lower international tension.
The second factor is one for which we, and the United States particularly, have been very much responsible. It is that the Western Powers, led by the United States and ourselves, have organised resistance to any attempt to force the Communist régime on other parts of the world outside Russia. A very good example of that is what happened in Korea; and there has been the creation of N.A.T.O., and later, in the Middle East, there has been the Bagdad Pact. Then, again, the general fear of the hydrogen bomb and the stalemate that has resulted from it have been other factors which have helped to bring this about.
On the other hand, we must never forget this. I once heard a diplomat say that the Russians used speech to hide their thoughts and not to convey them.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Carlyle said that.
Mr. Price: My hon. Friend says that it was Carlyle who said that, so perhaps the diplomat whom I heard was quoting Carlyle.
Mr. Hughes: Carlyle said it about the English.
Mr. Price: It is not true about us. It is not true about the Turks, or about any people who have not been under foreign domination for a long time. The Russians have been, for two centruies, and it tends to create that kind of mentality. It makes them more difficult to understand and to deal with.
Another factor in the Russian mentality is that for a long time in their history they have been a people who have looked for some sort of world salvation by a big event such as a revolution. That idea has been prevalent throughout the last century and a half—and Communism is only the twentieth century form of this kind of idea coming out in the modern world. One cannot, therefore, expect the Russians to give up their idea that the Communist system must spread throughout the world.
The point on which I think we can rely is that when faced with opposition either at home or abroad the rulers of Russia have always, in the past—and, I think, in the present—been ready to alter their tactics, to retire and wait for a new situation to arise. I believe that we are now in one of these waiting periods and the question is: how can we best utilise this breathing space to strengthen the West and the free world without, at the same time, making the Russians thinks that we are trying to undermine or encircle them?
That is not an easy thing to do, but it is something that we must try. I entirely agree with hon. Members on both sides who today have said that we must stand firm in the organisation of the free world. That does not mean, of course, that we should continue to maintain armaments in Europe at the same level as we have done in the immediate past. What has happened in regard to atomic warfare and the like is making conventional weapons less important, and I am very glad that next week we are to consider fully how far modifications in that respect can be brought about.
Although it may be possible to relax on the armaments side there can be no question of relaxing the political and diplomatic policy which we take up in dealing with the Russians and the Communist world. For instance, there is no sign whatever that the U.S.S.R will give up her hold on Germany. For her,
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German reunification means the maintenance of the Communist régime in Eastern Germany. On this, however, we cannot possibly give way, and we must support Dr. Adenauer in every possible way in his determination that if there is any reunification possible it must be only on the basis of free elections and a free way of life in both parts of Germany.
As to whether Germany shall remain a member of N.A.T.O. and provide conventional forces for the defence of Europe, that is a matter she must decide for herself. I entirely agree with the Prime Minister, and it was very well said, that that rests entirely with Germany. She is now a free and sovereign nation, and while we believe that she will come with us, at the same time, she is free. It is well that we should state that publicly, and keep it clear in our minds all the time.
My feeling is that Russia will remain quite adamant over Germany for a long time; that we shall be faced with stalemate there for some time to come. But the Russians are never adamant on more than one front in the world at the same time. If they are adamant in Europe, I think that there are indications of relaxation in some respects in the Middle East—at least, in regard to military matters. Russian influence is going to be directed much more to the line of political drive, and an all-out attempt to extend her influence economically both in Southern Asia and the Middle East.
Politically, there are also indications of certain other tendencies there. It is obvious that Mr. Shepilov is not encouraging intransigeance in the Arab world in regard to Israel. It looks as if he is giving a hint to the Arab world that it had better regard Israel as something which is here to stay. On the other hand, the economic drive is going on. They have offered, though whether they will continue that offer now in view of further investigations made into the economic position of Egypt remains to be seen, to build the Aswan Dam and to help Eyptian industrialisation. Even if Russia does not seek to replace the Western Powers over the Aswan Dam she may very well go all out to make a big drive to increase her economic influence in Egypt.
As long as the Bagdad Pact exists and here I wish to state again that I feel

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that the Government are right for basing at least a portion of their policy on the Bagdad Pact—as long as Turkey is sound internally, and her Army has the backing of air forces from the West, I do not think that there is any fear, especially in view of the new developments in Russia, of military complications in the Middle East. If Russia tries to exert influence, it is not likely to be by means of force, nor do I think it is likely that there will be an attempt to subvert the tribal areas between Turkey, Persia and Iraq, which she was working at a few years ago, namely, the Kurds of the upper Tigris Valley.
I believe that it is much more likely that Russia will try to influence the main towns and the developing urban centres of the Arab world, more particularly among the professional and middle classes of Iraq, Persia, Syria and Jordan and, not least, of course, the university students, aiming at getting rid of the existing Governments some of which are friendly to the West, by means of rioting and bazaar upheavals, and so on, and replacing them by Governments which are pro-Russian, because the Communist movement has always, from the very earliest days in Russia, tried to use Asian nationalism as the next step towards the Communist régime. I think that it is in this kind of way that they will try to get influence there.
What can the Western Powers do? I think that our answer is to give economic assistance to those countries as far as we possibly can. We have to remember, however, that some of these Middle Eastern countries are financially fairly well off. They have oil resources and oil royalties, particularly Iraq. Persia, of course, has resources, but has not made the good use of them that Iraq has. What all these countries need particularly, of course, is technical assistance, because they are technically weak and they have not the administrators.
My belief is that half a dozen sound and able administrators in a country like Iraq would put that country on the map in a short time; perhaps less so in Egypt, although they are needed there as well. Therefore, it seems to me that in some form or other, whether it is by technical assistance to the countries which have oil royalties or by direct investment of capital in those countries which have no
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resources, like Egypt, Jordan and others in that neighbourhood, that could be an answer which we could make in the West towards the subversive activities which I think the Russians will still try and carry on in the Middle East.
It is important that the Bagdad Pact should develop the economic side which is even more important than the military side today. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will tell us what is being done in this connection by those of us who are members of the Bagdad Pact and able to give assistance to the countries who are members of it. In regard to countries like Egypt, which are not able to get resources from oil royalties, a very big question arises as to how best to give assistance. I am very glad that it looks as if the Aswan Dam project is to be dropped. A very big complication would arise if that dam were built as proposed today.
There is the whole question of the countries of the Upper Nile Valley, the rights of Sudan and the rights of those countries even higher up at the source, Uganda, Kenya and Tanganyika which also have some rights in connection with the Nile waters. It seems to me that this is a matter which Egypt has no right to try to solve herself. The Nile Valley waters must be treated as a whole, and if they are to be treated in that way I think that it will be seen that the help to Egypt in dealing with her large and increasing population could best come, not necessarily by concentrating everything on one enormous scheme like the Aswan Dam, but on a number of schemes, such as dealing with the waters coming out of Victoria-Nyanza and using Lake Albert as a storage reservoir, building the Jonglei Canal through the great Sudd swamps and saving thereby large amounts of Nile water which now goes in evaporation.
All these are problems which I think we can deal with in the years to come. If they are successfully dealt with, I think that it will be possible for those countries in the Middle East to look to the West rather than to the countries behind the Iron Curtain for their salvation. This struggle is on. It is, fortunately a peaceful struggle. We must fight it with technical skill, administrative efficiency and our reputation for honesty, fair play and justice to secure these great

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territories of Southern Asia and the Middle East for the free world and the free way of life.
6.46 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Kershaw: It would be difficult to follow the hon. Gentleman the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Philips Price) in the full tour of the horizon which he has just given. I am sure, however that the House will be grateful to him for pointing out some of the more stubborn facts of the situation which face us today, particularly that this country cannot permanently acquiesce in a situation whereby East Germany is kept in political subjugation, and that unless some agreement is reached whereby both parts of Germany are united in freedom we are bound to maintain our present position.
I am sure that the House will also be grateful to the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Hamilton Kerr) who, in his eloquent speech, pointed out the enormous military preponderance which Russia and her satellites still enjoy. I would be the first to wish to join the clamour that our military expenditure should be cut down, but after hearing those two speeches I feel that anyone approaching the matter in a fair-minded way will agree that any question of cutting down our military expenditure must be approached with the greatest possible caution.
I am quite certain that the military expenditure which this country has, and which, we know, bears hardly upon our economy, can be borne by it. The will power and determination of this country can easily sustain the expenditure if it is necessary, and if it is shown to be necessary I am quite sure that the people will continue to bear it with the best will that they can.
The hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) pointed to some lightening of the horizon in the change of character of the régime in Russia, but he also added later—and I thoroughly agree with this—that the integrated bloc, as he called it, of Russia and its satellites, while it has advantages to them at the present time in order to make their policy homogenous and provide no differences between them, offers the danger to us that that policy can very suddenly be reversed, and we none of us know if the new look, although we are grateful for it, which is coming over the foreign policy of Russia,
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is likely to be permanent or whether some sudden change may not take place.
I do not advocate that the expenditure of our Armed Forces should necessarily be cut down if it is shown that it is necessary, but following the general policy and speeches which we have heard this afternoon I venture particularly to ask whether we are absolutely clear about the object at present of keeping military forces in Germany. Obviously, they were put there originally for military reasons, but nobody, I think, would now contend that our military forces in Germany would be satisfactory to cope with a conventional war. On the other hand, nobody contends that a conventional war is the sort of war that would happen in Europe. Surely, if any war happened in Europe, it would be a nuclear war, and it is difficult to see exactly what would be the rôle of our four divisions and the Tactical Air Force in Germany after a nuclear explosion.
There must, therefore, be other reasons why we continue to keep our forces there. Perhaps it is to convince our friends that we will defend ourselves. At one time that may well have been true, and it has some validity at the moment, but surely our friends ought to reflect that in a nuclear war, which is the only kind of war which might break out in Europe, we could no more decline to defend ourselves or stay out of that war than could anyone else. That is one kind of war out of which we could not contract. Certainly, we would all be involved and it would be a question of defending ourselves.
Perhaps at one time, and it may still be the case, those forces were some reassurance to France that Germany would not be militarily resurgent. If that was so, I rather doubt whether they achieve that object. They are not occupation troops legally or in fact. Even if they were, the number of troops maintained in Germany could not permanently keep Germany out of action as regards France. I do not think that the French, if they think that one over, if it is present in their minds, would think that it was a valid reason for our maintaining our forces there.
It may be that the Germans want them there. They wanted them there at one time, but they do not seem to want them there very much now because they refuse

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to pay for them. It is possible that the Germans would wish to go it alone a little bit more than they have done so far, and at one time there was a very great danger that West Germany might embrace the eastern bloc to obtain the object, dear to its heart, of the reunification of Germany. But I do not myself reckon that danger very high.
After all, Russia has what Germany wants. Before the war it was the other way round—we had what Germany then wanted and, therefore, we were the object of attack. Now we have nothing that Germany wants. Who wants Colonies nowadays? Certainly, a place in the sun turns out to provide more sunburn than anything else.
Perhaps, therefore, we ought to examine whether our own interests would benefit by any movement of those troops. Clearly, to some extent financially we would be helped. It may be that the presence there of those troops, as the hon. Member for Woolwich, East suggested, rather stiffens the attitude of the Eastern bloc towards us—I am not sure about that; but we ought to be quite clear why those troops remain there. We had good reason for sending them there once and it may be that the reasons have altered and we ought to re-examine the situation.
Mr. William Warbey: Before the hon. Member disposes of all the reasons for keeping these four divisions in Germany, would he examine the one which he seems to have missed out, namely, that this country made a solemn pledge to retain those forces, or their equivalent, in Germany until the end of the century, and did so to persuade the French Assembly to ratify the Paris Agreements?
Mr. Kershaw: I do not dispute the immediate considerations which made us put the troops there. Our actions, of course, were motivated by pressures at the time. As in all human things, if the reason should change we must squarely face it. We must face that, and so must our Allies on the Continent. It would do no service to them or to ourselves if, the situation having changed, we obstinately persisted in policies which now have no further relevance.
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I am not suggesting that we should reduce in any way our military expenditure or the support which we give to N.A.T.O., but if we can give that support in other ways and in other places we ought to examine how it should be done. I am not entirely sure that it is necessary or now even desirable to confine our help to N.A.T.O. to military help. As has been said this afternoon more ably than I can say it, economically and, perhaps, consultatively, by exchange of ideas in assembly, and so on, we might do more for N.A.T.O. than in the past we have been able to do militarily. However valuable it was at the time, it may be that the situation has altered.
I believe that we could perhaps be of more help to Germany by helping her to rearm and perhaps be of more help to France by enabling her to carry on the battle in Algeria, which, after all, is to some extent our battle as well as hers. We could help the Commonwealth by having a little more money to invest in it, and we might give more help to the United States by being stronger financially than we are now if we did not have so great a burden to bear. By examination of the common market and other devices to increase the amount of trade in Europe, we might well strengthen Europe; and, as one of my hon. Friends has said, we need not necessarily in any way go across the interests of the Commonwealth by so doing.
I turn to the problem of Euratom. I hope that we manage to give whatever help is in our power to the project of Euratom but I hope it is realised on all sides what a great sacrifice it will be to this country if we go into Euratom lock, stock and barrel.
In the first place, we are far more industrialised and depend far more upon sources of power than any other country which is likely to participate in it. Therefore, if any sacrifice is asked of us by way of energy in the future, that sacrifice will strike us harder than ever it would hit any of the other participating countries.
It seems, secondly, that the power which is likely to be available for industrialisation in Europe during the next fifty years will everywhere be quite inadequate and will, certainly on the Continent of Europe, be very much less than here. If the nuclear energy which is available in Europe is distributed per

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capita amongst the countries of Europe, including our own, our sacrifice will be much greater than the sacrifices of the other countries concerned. I imagine and I hope that we have been able to make provision for acquiring nuclear fuel to work our atomic power stations. If so, if we join Euratom it will be necessary for us to give up part of it to the other participating countries. That also would impose a large sacrifice upon us.
Finally, I am not sure that we do not have to consider the arrangements we have made with countries outside Europe—Canada and the United States—in relation to nuclear energy, and to consider whether they would be willing to join with us in future arrangements if we in turn went into Euratom and promised to give all information in our possession to other members of Euratom.
I do not believe that by associating ourselves very closely with some of these European organisations, by federalism and by such negotiations, we necessarily advance the causes of peace and prosperity in Europe which we have at heart. I wish to call attention to some of the difficulties there in Euratom, but I join wholeheartedly in the view that unless we can change the nature of N.A.T.O. to bolster it up economically and politically in the way that we have done militarily, N.A.T.O. may well be running into difficulties in the very near future.
7.0 p.m.
Mr. John Hynd: I should very much have liked to have followed the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw) in a number of his reflections, particularly about our military commitments in Germany and about Euratom and the common market, but I have not time to do so. However, I must make one or two short comments on those matters.
I would ask the hon. Member to reflect why we have our troops in Germany and what would happen if they were withdrawn. He says that the number of troops that we have in Germany certainly could not fight a Continental war on a conventional basis and that they would be of no use in an atomic war. That argument applies even more to the handful of troops we have in Berlin, but the handful of Western allied troops in Berlin
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have prevented Berlin from being overrun by the Russians, as would certainly happen if we were to withdraw them. They are there, first, under the Paris Agreements for the purpose of trying to control the rearmament of Germany at a comparatively low level. We undertook the commitment of supplementing the small German forces by retaining our troops in Germany. That should be sufficient explanation of that.
I should dearly love to have the time to debate with the hon. Member the question of Euratom and the common market. He spoke about our having to make greater sacrifices if we were to enter into those arrangements. I would ask him to consider what will happen if we do not. If we do not it is most probable that the Six will go ahead on their own and consolidate still further the development towards the small Six federation in Europe.
I think that our country will be in a dangerous situation in the matter of atomic energy if we are not in those arrangements, because atomic energy in Western Europe will be developed by the small Six, and that inevitably must mean the development of that community, running its own atomic power and under the domination of Germany. The hon. Gentleman said that Britain should consider the sacrifice she would make if she were to participate in those arrangements. I would say we should think of our entering them, not as a sacrifice, but as a contribution to the controlled development of the European community.
However, as I said, I have not the time to follow all the observations of the hon. Member for Stroud, for I should like to spend the short time I propose to speak tonight dealing with the main question which is agitating the House, the country, and the world, and that is Germany.
I welcome the observations made by the Prime Minister about the Russian new look, and I think that everyone on this side of the House welcomes the very clear statement which he made of his appreciation of the possibility behind that new look. I think there is a great deal in the new look of Russia. I am not finally satisfied that there is a complete change, but the evidence which was given by the Prime Minister today is sufficient to make us consider seriously whether or

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not there is something going on in Russia which can be to our advantage and to the advantage of world peace.
I have long held the view that in Russia, despite whatever may have happened during the Stalin régime, Stalin was not able to liquidate all the old Bolsheviks. The old Bolsheviks were genuinely democratic Communists—a term which it is difficult to understand nowadays, but which at the time of the Russian Revolution was very easily understood. They began with the conception of overthrowing the Tsarist régime and with establishing what they called the dictatorship of the proletariat in its place in the first instance: then, through Lenin's "New Constitution" the building up of a Communist democracy.
Stalin set about eliminating those old Bolsheviks, but I am not quite sure he eliminated them all. I think there are still many left. Some of them were pretty tough old boys, and I am sure many of them have been awaiting their chance to exert their influence on the development of Russian Communism. It may be that something of the kind has happened in the recent development of Russian policy.
What is quite certain is that the unrest in the satellite countries, which exploded in the first place in Eastern Germany, and then more recently in Poland, is making the Russians begin to realise that they cannot for ever control them, and they are gradually making concessions. Every time a new explosion takes place, they make more concessions. What we are seeing today happen rather rapidly there is what has always happened in the history of the world when there has been repression of the masses of the people in any community. It inevitably leads to revolt and the extraction of concessions from the oppressors. In the history of the world, that has generally taken a long period, and has been the inevitable development of the democratic forces of the world. That is what, I believe, has been happening in the Russian dominated territories, and it has happened rather more quickly there because the establishment of dictatorship in Russia was super imposed upon conditions of at least semi-democracy.
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Therefore, with the Prime Minister I say we should watch for and welcome any gesture made from Russia or from her satellite countries towards the making of more and closer contacts with others, and the loosening of the ties and bonds under which the people of those territories are forced at the present time to live. Indeed, if we do not seek to encourage every such gesture, if we try to repel such gestures, if, as we have sometimes heard less responsible American statesmen suggest, we repel them and say we shall never discuss anything with a Russian Communist Government, we shall drive into desperation any elements there which may be trying to find an accommodation with us. That we should seek to avoid if possible. If anyone there is trying to loosen ties, is trying to find an accommodation, is trying to get nearer to the democratic concepts of the West, let us encourage him and not discourage him.
In the meantime what I should like to see is as follows. This is the main point I wish to make, and I may not receive the unanimous support of everyone, even on this side of the House, in saying this, though I am sure I shall find a great deal of support. While we are encouraging those gestures, while we are looking for every opportunity to develop freedom in the world and to take positive steps towards disarmament and all the other things we are seeking to achieve, the unity of Germany, and the West, it would, I think, be a fatal mistake just at this moment, when there are signs that the rigidity of Russia, to which the Prime Minister referred, is softening, just at this moment when, as it were, the enemy is in retreat in some respects, to jettison some of our own bastions, one of which is Germany.
I agree that in the development of modern weapons, in the development of the great deterrent of the hydrogen bomb, which make conventional conceptions of military defence out of date, there is every reason why we should seek adjustments, and that even in Germany itself we should be looking for possibilities of reducing our ground troops, where that can be done effectively, without upsetting any of the general strategical considerations. I agree that all that is possible and that all that can be done, but I think it would be disastrous if, because we see the beginning of signs of an opportunity of getting a little nearer to an understanding with

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Russia on the matter of German unity and other questions, we would start by withdrawing our troops from Germany.
We ought not to propose that Germany, if unified, should be a neutralised Germany, that she should not be allowed to join the Western countries if she should want to. I think it would be a serious mistake if we were to jettison the bastion of Western Germany when we are possibly on the point of making some progress. The first thing to seek here is the reunification of Germany. I think there is general agreement in all parts of the House about that. All I am saying is that while we are trying to bring that about we should not cede everything in advance of the negotiations.
We have to wait before we really begin to discuss how neutral Germany should be, what kind of security arrangements for Europe there are to be when German reunification has been achieved, what the final frontiers of Germany are to be. For decisions on all those matters we have to wait until we have a German Government with whom we can negotiate. We have to wait until there is a peace conference with Russia, at which the new all-German Government can be present.
It is there that we can discuss the final frontiers of Germany. It is there that we can discuss what kind of European security scheme will take the place of N.A.T.O. in Europe or the Warsaw Pact, if such a scheme is possible. But it is no use just assuming that there will be such a European security scheme, which has not yet been defined and in respect of which we have no assurance as to what kind of security will be provided under it or what kind of guarantees will surround it, until we have the basis of such a scheme, that is, an agreement on the Germany that will take part in it: in other words, until we have an agreement on the reunification of Germany.
When we talk about German reunification and the part that Germany will play in a future security scheme and what kind of forces Germany will have after reunification, we must keep in mind, first, what we mean by a free, equal and united Germany. When we talk about reunification, everybody uses such terms and talks about Germany being free, equal and sovereign. Even Mr. Molotov used such expressions freely at the Geneva and Berlin Conferences and elsewhere.
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If Germany is to be free, equal and sovereign it means that she must be as free as other partners in the European set-up, otherwise she is not free and equal, and if she is not free and equal obviously she will not be in a position to allow a really democratic society to develop. No nation that is not free, equal and sovereign can claim the full confidence of its people and become completely democratic. If Germany, therefore, is to be free, equal and sovereign when she is reunited she must be free either to arm herself unilaterally, if that is to be the rule and we are all going to do that, or she must be free to play an equal part in whatever scheme may emerge for mutual security, whether within the N.A.T.O. pact or within some new all-European security pact.
It is obviously to the advantage of everyone concerned, including the Western democratic countries and Germany, that there should be some mutual security organisation in which Germany, as in the Paris Agreements, is contained in the number of troops and the amount of weapons she will have, just as every other partner in the pact must accept such a limitation. I cannot see any satisfactory arrangement in which Germany alone must have restrictions placed upon her, because if those are to be the conditions they are not conditions in which democracy and European security can develop.
As I have been talking freely about German reunification, I want to examine what the prospects of that reunification may be at present. I believe—and I have done so for a long time, even before the new look in Russia—that there was a prospect and I believe there remains a prospect that Russia is prepared to quit Eastern Germany. But, as I have often said, she wants a price. I believe that that price is fairly obvious. What she wants in the long run is a guarantee of the Oder-Neisse line. Russia needs to reassure Poland that having lost the Ukraine in the East she will be guaranteed her present territories in the West, that is, Pomerania and Silesia. Until she gets this assurance she can never be confident of the acceptance by the Poles of the loss of their Ukrainian territory.
If I may, I should like to bring forward evidence on that point. I visited most of the major cities of Poland about two years

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ago. I found that every one of those cities was well ahead with reconstruction after war damage, with the exception of Stettin, which happens to be on the left bank of the Oder. When I asked various Polish Ministers why it had not been reconstructed, I received no satisfactory answer, but a cynical smile. I could not help thinking that this had something to do with the reservation which the Poles had in mind about the finality of the position of Stettin in any settlement with Germany.
It is true that all parties in Germany reject the conception of conceding the Oder-Neisse line to Poland. They must do so. I hear people criticising Dr. Adenauer or the Social Democrats because they reject any consideration at all of giving up Pomerania or Silesia, but they must do that. We, too, have rejected any proclamation on these territories until there is a peace treaty. It is specifically excluded in the Potsdam Agreement. Any responsible person in Germany would be foolish to say prior to a peace conference that Germany was giving up all that she is likely to be asked to give up in return for whatever concession she might be given at the conference. Therefore, we cannot expect the Germans to take up any other attitude. I believe, however, that inevitably that is what will happen. I believe that that is what the Russians want, and that that is where the settlement will be made.
Let us consider the gains to Germany that would arise from such a settlement. A leading Social Democrat, Mr. Erler, has pointed out in a recent pamphlet that by a reunited Germany the Germans mean at present the four zones, British, French, American and Russian. They have reservations as to what might happen afterwards, but for the purposes of considering free elections in Germany towards establishing a free German Government to negotiate a peace treaty, we cannot go further than the four zones. No party in Germany has suggested that any free elections or any free, provisional Government set up to draw up a constitution will include Pomerania, East Silesia and East Prussia.
They are looking at the question from the point of view of free elections in the four zones as they exist at present. That must be so, because whatever hope there
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may be of our securing agreement for reunification of Germany out of these four zones, there is no hope of getting free German elections now to cover Pomerania, Silesia and North and East Prussia prior to any peace conference. That must be settled at the peace conference, after free elections have taken place in the four zones, and after an all-German Government to participate in the peace conference has been elected.
If that is a fair conclusion, it is rather nonsense to talk about the future of Pomerania, Silesia, East Prussia and the rest at present. It is still more nonsense, and dangerous nonsense, to talk about the liberation of those and other territories before we get a settlement in Europe, because if we can get even that limited agreement, which is what all German parties are looking for at present, that is up to the Oder-Neisse line, with free elections, an all-German Government and a peace conference which will consider what will happen to Pomerania, Silesia, East Prussia and the rest, that is worth while. We should go for that, without any diversion into these other less certain possibilities.
We should concentrate on free elections and a peace conference on that basis. I believe that if we did that—
Sir Robert Boothby: May I interrupt to ask a question? The hon. Gentleman speaks with great authority on Germany, and he said just now that the acceptance by the Russians of the Oder-Neisse line was conditional on their agreement to any form of German reunification. If that is the case, would it not be better for us—not the Germans—to accept that line?
Mr. Hynd: I am not so sure that it would be the best tactics to say before a conference that we wanted to discuss German frontiers within the Oder-Neisse line. What we ought to do is to concentrate on getting free elections within the four zones of Germany in order to establish a German Government and subsequently, on a peace conference to discuss the future frontiers of Germany. If there were free elections in the four zones and a German Government established within them, a peace conference could be held, but there is little likelihood that anyone would consider for a moment that such a conference would cede

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Pomerania, Silesia and the rest to Germany. In the first place the Russians would not do it and, in the second place, the Poles would not do it.
Mr. David Ormsby-Gore: If I understood the hon. Gentleman aright, he said earlier that the Russians would not agree to free elections unless they had a clear statement on the Oder-Neisse line. I do not see how his two statements tie up.
Mr. Hynd: I did not say that they would not agree to free elections unless they had a clear statement. I said that they would be more ready to agree to free elections up to the Oder-Neisse line if they understood pretty clearly what would be the outcome of the subsequent peace conference. It is one thing to make a declaration from this place in the House of Commons and another to talk between ambassadors before conferences are held. That is all I say about that point. I believe that the constant harping on the liberation of those territories and on the regaining of the 1937 frontiers for Germany is one of the things which makes Russia and Poland and other countries hesitate to go into any commitments which might lead to the re-opening of these questions.
If such a settlement were reached, the gains to all would be immense. So far as the Western democracies are concerned, we should have extended democracy up to the Polish frontier. There would be a united Germany up to the Oder-Neisse line. There would be a reunited Berlin, and the curious situation in which Berlin is now an island in the Russian Zone of Germany, one of the most dangerous points in the world, would have been eliminated,
Russia would gain too, because Russia would have some assurance that she was going to get a final settlement of the German frontiers, leaving her with East Prussia and North-East Prussia. She would be more assured of the position of the Ukraine if Poland could be assured of her western frontiers. Poland would gain because she would be more likely to have a viable territory or, at the least, one she could recognise and which would be recognised by the world as hers. At the present time she does not know where her frontiers are to be and precisely what she can do.
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One may ask, what about the refugees from those territories? I am not sure that many of the refugees from Pomerania or Silesia want to go back. I say this after many discussions that I have had with these refugees. It is true that there are individuals, such as the absentee landlords, the people who had big investments in these territories, who would like to get back the right of recovering those territories and collecting rents or collecting their incomes from investments. However, the ordinary working people who have been driven out of those territories more than once, most of whom are now settled in Western Germany, with better jobs and conditions than they have had before, are not interested in going back, partly for economic reasons and partly because they do not want to be thrown about the world again, as they have been so much in the past.
Nevertheless, in any agreement regarding the future of those territories, we should try to insist that the refugees from, or previous settlers in, those territories should have the right of repatriation, if they so desire. I believe that few would want to exercise that right, particularly if the conditions to which they were returning were left to the Polish Government. By this I mean that the ordinary industrial worker would not be particularly keen on leaving his better job in Western Germany and the ex-landlord in Pomerania or Silesia would realise that if he went back to Poland today, he would not get much profit out of his previous investments.
Therefore, I say that there is a possibility of getting somewhere now on the question of the reunification of Germany. I do not believe that it is realistic to think in terms of a liberation, which I take to mean the reversal of all the territorial readjustments that have been made in Europe since 1945. I do not think that is possible. I do not think we can contemplate the possibility of a situation arising in which millions of people are re-migrated back to territories from which they were forced in 1945 or subsequently.
We have to look at the world as it is today. We have to look at Europe as it is today. We have to look at Pomerania and East Silesia and East Prussia as they are today, and we have to look at what will give us the maximum advantage in

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our fight for the expansion of world peace and world democracy.
How is that to start? One hon. Member suggested today that it should be started by America, Britain and France opening discussions with the West German Government. I think that would be a fatal mistake. I do not think that that would create the best amosphere for new negotiations with Russia. After all, it is the four occupying Powers who are responsible. Therefore the right thing to do is for Britain, America and France to invite Russia to have talks on the position in Germany and on the possibility of reunification. After there was general agreement in principle then we could all go to our respective parts of Germany and say, "We have reached an agreement. We invite you to take part in consultations with the four of us on this matter to see where we can get."
The German political parties, the C.D.U. and the S.P.D., have both rejected any possibility of discussions with the East German authorities. That is not our business. If they feel that way about it, they are entitled to refuse to recognise those authorities. They happen nevertheless to be the authorities, even if they are pulled by the strings of Russia. I could see some advantages in negotiations between East and West Germany which might assist the four great Powers in reaching an agreement when they come together, because if the East and West German Governments reach no agreement in any unofficial or informal discussions, we would have lost nothing.
Mr. Zilliacus: May I interrupt my hon. Friend? Is it not a fact that the S.P.D. is prepared to enter into discussions on a de facto basis with the East German authorities on the practical question of how to run the elections?
Mr. Hynd: It is true that they are prepared to enter into discussions on detailed matters of, for instance, trade and the exchange of personnel, but I did not know that they were yet willing to do so on the details of elections. They have certainly said categorically that they are not prepared to recognise the East German authorities on the question of the reunification of Germany.
I was saying that if they entered into discussions and got nowhere, at least we
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should be no further back. We could still have our four-Power discussions. On the other hand, if the East German authorities agreed to something with West Germany, there would at least be a strong probability of the four Powers reaching an agreement also, because clearly both those sections of Germany would have had discussions with their senior partners before they reached any agreement at all.
As I say, that is a matter for the German people themselves, for the German Government, and I would not seek to interfere. I merely utter these reflections on the point. I feel that the four occupying Powers who have directed the policy for Germany who have the fate of Germany in their hands, should get together now to try to settle the question, because I believe it is possible.
To sum up, I believe that the Russian change is a real one, and that we should encourage every gesture that is made. I believe there is some hope now of reunification of the four zones of Germany, if there is—I scarcely know how to put this—a general understanding in advance that we are not making any condition in relation to Germany's 1947 frontiers; in other words, that we are prepared to consider a practical solution of the problem of the new German frontiers. I believe we should try. I do not think it is impossible that we should get somewhere, because I have not forgotten what happened in Austria. We should rule out a "general post" of the territories redistributed after the war, for that would be fatal and disastrous, and it would not be practicable.
We should seek by our efforts now to extend the democratic world as far as we possibly can. If it is up to the Oder-Neisse line, I believe that will be a tremendous gain to us. It will be a tremendous gain to Germany, to Russia and to Poland. It will also be a great gain to the satellite peoples who still remain under Russian domination, because they will at least have the gain of a nearer proximity to the democratic world and better possibilities of communication. Everybody would gain from the settlement. That is what makes it so attractive.
We should admit the possibility of some kind of new mutual security scheme for Europe. Within that scheme, whatever it may be. if Germany is to be a

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real democratic factor in the European world of the future, Germany must be equal to the others. I would rule out completely any suggestion that the four Powers, or any other Powers, or any other collection of European or other States, should try to dictate to Germany conditions which are not applicable to any single one of the others. The Paris Agreements have shown that it is possible to contain German rearmament, that it is possible to achieve a level of disarmament throughout the participating countries, and that it is possible to eliminate any danger of future German aggression by keeping all the partners in the pact on an equal basis. I believe that is the only way in which it can be done.
With all these hopes and prospects, I feel it would be a great mistake to jettison anything now, such as to talk about German neutrality as a special condition for Germany, or to talk about dismantling N.A.T.O. to encourage the Russians to do something which I believe they are prepared in any case to do. I believe that there may even be something more significant behind the Russian position than the Prime Minister expressed in his hopes today. It is possible that we may be much nearer the final settlement of many world problems than we think.
If there is anything substantial in the Russian attitude, surely it is obvious that an agreement between Russia and the West to settle down even to competitive co-existence would mean that the countries which have the threat of the hydrogen bomb hanging over them and are anxious to establish world peace could make the United Nations work and could make possible of achievement the original purposes of the Security Council. Once that was done, all the other problems—Israel, Formosa, Indo-China and the rest—should present no difficulty at all, because it is only the division of the world into these two great camps which makes it possible for all the little festering sores in the world to continue.
If there is something in this, and if we can persuade Russia we mean to co-operate and can get her to co-operate through the United Nations—I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) that this can be done, if it is to be done effectively, only
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through the United Nations—we may then be much nearer the millennium in world affairs than we have dreamt.
7.35 p.m.
Mr. G. B. Drayson: The hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) has made a most interesting speech on the subject of Germany and German unification, and has pointed out some of the many difficulties involved in that problem. I am not as hopeful as he was that the ideas which he put forward would result in a speedy solution.
The Prime Minister, in his message of progress to the House this afternoon, also had a good deal to say about the German problem and the question of unification. I have studied the matter in a small way, and perhaps I have an approach to the problem rather different from that of hon. Members opposite. I think back to the time when the four zones came into operation, and particularly to the occasion when Lord Attlee and the late Mr. Ernest Bevin went to Potsdam to settle the final agreement after the 1945 General Election. Had my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) and the present Prime Minister returned to Potsdam after that General Election, the map of Europe would look very different today and many of the present problems would never have arisen. However, that was not to be so.
What happened? We then had Germany divided into zones. The occupation armies of America, France and Britain set about teaching the Germans the virtues of our Western democracy.
Mr. Warbey: Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that the division of Germany into four zones was arranged by the Labour Government? Surely he knows that that was arranged well in advance.
Mr. Drayson: Of course it was, but I was saying that my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford would not have agreed to the state of affairs which has come about. I know that the zones were agreed at Yalta, but my right hon. Friend would not have agreed to a state of affairs in Europe after the end of hostilities which would have led to the present situation. We have been reminded that there is still no peace treaty with a united Germany eleven

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years after the war. The Labour Party has a very large measure of responsibility for that, because it was the Labour Government which was responsible for these matters from 1945 onwards.
As to what happened immediately after the war, we felt it our duty, having had such bitter experience of the Nazi régime, to impress upon the defeated Germans the method of government that we thought it would be in their interest and the interests of the world for them to adopt. Various organs of the Forces, such as A.B.C.A.—the Army Bureau of Current Affairs—were used to teach the Germans the art of Western democracy. After a number of years, when we thought they had learnt their lesson sufficiently well, they were allowed to take part in local elections, and this led to their own general elections and ultimate complete independence.
I always remember my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford saying that in these matters we should sometimes look at things from the other side's point of view. In this case, the other side is Russia. In the Russian Zone the Russians set about bringing in their own instructors and teaching people in the Eastern Zone of Germany something of their ideas of how a country should be run, so we should not be surprised at the difficulties which we are now facing.
Many suggestions have been put forward this afternoon, and there will no doubt be many more, for dealing with that situation. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said that the longer we delayed the longer we would have to wait for unification. I am certainly not as optimistic as some hon. Members opposite. This afternoon the Prime Minister talked about free elections on terms that all could accept, after which the Germans could have any constitution they liked. We immediately come up against the difficulty of reaching terms for elections which are acceptable to all.
Looking at the problem as a purely political or electoral one, and without going into details of party policies, and so forth, in Western Germany at the present time, merely by counting the heads of electors one can see an immediate obstacle. It is my assessment of the situation that if the population of Eastern Germany was to be added to that of Western Germany—18 million East
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Germans to 45 million in the West—we might well find an electorate with a predominantly Left-wing attitude.
That is because the Germans in the Eastern Zone have suffered very bitterly at the hands of the Russians and have paid considerable reparations to the Russians. They have been the only Germans to pay reparations. The Allies have had to pay vast sums of money into Western Germany to build up its economic strength so that it is now one of our fiercest competitors in world markets. In Eastern Germany, 18 million Germans have been paying reparations for the whole German nation and they do not feel that they have had all the encouragement from Western Germany that they would have liked.
They have seen Western German build herself into a state of considerable prosperity and they may feel that the Western Germans are happy with the situation as it is and do not want to change it just yet until they are ready—I do not know what "until they are ready" means, nor who it is who wants to be ready. I have spoken to industrialists from the Ruhr and others from Western Germany and I find it difficult to get answers to these problems. Others may know what the answers are.
The Eastern Germans are now the have-nots and if a political party comes forward in Western Germany in these all-German elections and says, "If you, the Eastern Germans, vote for us, we will see that the wealth acquired by our nation in the last eleven years is equally divided ", it will receive considerable support. There may be some in the West who do not like the idea of dividing wealth, but the fact remains that the 18 million East Germans would tend towards the Left in order to share in the division of the wealth from the West.
Later, after the elections and when equilibrium between East and West had been reached—and I say this especially, knowing the German characteristics and our experience of the Germans before the war—the pendulum might swing to the Right again and when the Eastern Germans had reached parity with those in the West there might be a Right-wing Government. There would, however, be difficulties with a Left-wing Government in the near future. Those may be matters of which we should not take account and

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certainly not seek to influence, but in the world of politics today all such matters have to be seriously considered.
I had intended to refer to those people who come from the Eastern Zone into Western Germany and to the sort of treatment which they then receive. However, all I shall say is that it is my impression that they do not get that care and consideration which we give to our fellow citizens from Jamaica and the West Indies who come to this country to earn their living. There is room for improvement in the system which operates for those who come from the Eastern Zone to work and live in the West.
I am convinced, as are other hon. Members, that unification is the key to the entire European problem. People sometimes cynically ask me what is the advantage of German reunification to Great Britain and to the West and I am sometimes inclined to ask myself that very question, but I try as speedily as possible to dismiss those unworthy thoughts from my mind.
Reference has been made to direct talks between the West German Government and the East German Government, which, for the first time, was spoken of as the D.D.R. by the Prime Minister. To hear the use of those three initials after so many years of reference to the Soviet Zone indicates that we are making some progress towards recognising that 18 million Germans need special consideration. I do not know what advantages would come from direct negotiations between East and West Germany.
I have a shrewd suspicion that there are some very direct negotiations about trade already, and that trade is taking place between the Eastern and Western Zones of Germany to the detriment of British manufacturers and on a basis which places us at a disadvantage. I should like the Government to give special consideration to that point, because if we make progress economically and increase the prosperity of Eastern Germany, we must, at the same time, in some way benefit the 18 million Germans who are endeavouring, against many obstacles, to earn their livings and bring up their families in that part of Europe. We should look more closely at any possible obstacles to proper and normal trade with the Eastern Zone.
Mr. F. Beswick: I am following the hon. Member's argument
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with very great interest. Will he agree that it would also be an advantage if Her Majesty's Government were sufficiently sensible to recognise the D.D.R. to such an extent that they could arrange with it for British European Airways to have its through air service to Moscow via East Berlin?
Mr. Drayson: I have followed that matter quite closely, but, not being an expert on airlines, as is the hon. Member, I have not sought to enter that controversy. No doubt he will refer to it if he speaks later.
I am told that East German trading concerns who acquire sterling as a result of transactions with Great Britain or the Empire, see their sterling go into an account which is the equivalent of Russian sterling account. To have it released on a transferable basis the East Germans are forced to seek the permission of the Soviet monetary authorities to use the sterling which they have acquired in normal trading. Things of that sort have the effect of driving East Germany deeper into the arms of the Soviet Union. We should take what steps we can to reduce that influence.
East Germany is a factor in a much larger game being played by the Soviet Union, but there are a number of instances in relation to which we could at least demonstrate our interest in those 18 million Germans who, to use an American phrase, are "on the wrong side of the track". Through no fault of their own, but through the fortunes of war, they have not enjoyed the same benefits as have been enjoyed by those in West Germany since 1945.
I should like to repeat a phrase used by the Secretary of State for the Colonies in the recent debate on Cyprus. That is, that it is a mistake to take up too rigid a position. I feel that it would be a mistake to do so in this matter. I hope that, with the more encouraging expressions of opinion which we have had today, progress will continue. I have ventured to submit these few ideas to the House. I am fully aware of the immense responsibility resting upon the shoulders of the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, but I confidently hope that when we next discuss these matters still further progress will have been made.
7.52 p.m.
Mr. Harold Davies: I have listened to all the speeches made this afternoon. I certainly believe that the Prime Minister has clarified the position in regard to Germany, N.A.T.O., and a rapprochement with the U.S.S.R. I will return to that point later. I assure my colleagues that if I am not interrupted I shall be brief, in order to leave time for a few more speeches to be made.
The hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Drayson) is quite a progressive Conservative. He came with me to Moscow in 1952 or 1953, when we tried to increase East-West trade. At that time we were liable to be called fellow-travellers or Communists, but the hon. Gentleman had the courage to come to Moscow with us. He can be quite assured that we are no longer called fellow-travellers. Even some trade unions which voted against East-West trade are now finding that they want to sell tractors and cars wherever they can.
What I resented about the hon. Member's speech was his accusation that my party had drawn the map of Europe. If anybody wants to know who should be accused of intensifying the cold war, I can tell him where to search. I was in the United States of America on 5th March, 1946, when the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) made his Fulton speech, which started the deterioration of East-West relations and the intensification of the cold war. The trouble in Germany and Berlin did not begin with the intensification of the differences between East and West Berlin; it began with financial jugglery. I telephoned Berlin on the day that the American Government altered the value of the deutschmark. If that alteration had had the effect of altering the rate in East Berlin it would have completely upset the economy in the East. Any student who has studied this matter can trace the deterioration of the position to that action.
The Berlin airlift need never have been necessary, because goods could have gone over the frontier quite easily. Far from there being an Iron Curtain, thousands of people move across the frontier each day, working in one area and living in the other. Is it not time that we started trying to co-exist and co-operate with the East, in view of the changes that have
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taken place in the U.S.S.R., instead of perpetuating the myth that there is some demarcation line over which people cannot move? People in East and West Berlin have been moving across the frontier throughout the cold war.
I now want to speak for myself. During the weekend I took the trouble to read two documents to which I had the honour to contribute a little. One is called "Keep Left", and the other "Keeping Left". I also took the trouble to read a very erudite document produced by the Institute of International Affairs, called "Defence in the Cold War". This document tells us how we can rearm without tears, and how we can afford to spend 10 per cent. of our national income upon rearmament in the cold war. It also tells us that the atom bomb is a myth, and that we must not create fear of it.
But it had the courage to state what the world did not know at that time—when that document was written and Chatham House was investigating its allegations—namely, who started the trouble in North Korea. The reality of the matter is that the world was swung into the war in North Korea before the United Nations had a chance to make a full investigation. Chatham House admitted that. These are some of the general principles of the cold war that we should be able to discuss now without calling each other Communists or fellow-travellers.
We were given a better definition of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation today. The Prime Minister said that the hydrogen bomb compels military rethinking. Not so very long ago not even that was admitted. We now have it officially from the most important speech made today—the most important because it was made by the Prime Minister and is now part of British policy, and we, as an Opposition, must accept some responsibility for that policy.
The hydrogen bomb now compels military rethinking. The Soviet Union accepts this as a fact, and so do we. In those circumstances, let our rethinking be courageous. A categorical statement has been made that no condition was laid down that Germany must joint N.A.T.O. before there could be the development of a free Germany. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said that that was not made so clear in the

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White Paper as it has been today. This is a new fulcrum, from which we can move into a completely new position vis-à-vis the U.S.S.R. The Prime Minister's statement was one of the most important in today's debate in connection with our relations with the U.S.S.R.
I do not want to go into detail by quoting from bits of paper and statistics and making up the map of Europe in little packets. For ten years we have been compiling statistics and adding up figures, forgetting that we are dealing with human souls.
We have been given two principles by the Prime Minister. We have been told categorically that we are compelled to rethink our military position. Let us, therefore, tell our fighting Services that we want co-ordination, and that we shall ultimately have to cut down and reorganise our entire forces. Secondly, we have been told that there is no precondition for a united Germany, and that it is not necessary that Germany should join N.A.T.O.
We now accept the principle of coexistence; in plain English that means living together. We must live together or we shall die together. East-West trade is essential if we are to live together, and I agree with that part of the speech of the hon. Member for Skipton. We should say to the United States that we must co-operate together to move goods from one part of the world to the other. This ridiculous business of the Battle Act and the movement of British goods is partly responsible for the strikes in Britain today.
Have we the courage to tell the United States, after the November elections, where we stand regarding East-West trade? The Presidential elections will be over in November. After that, within about twelve months, the position in the United States may have improved vastly, and we should try to hasten the rapprochement between the United States and the U.S.S.R. We could achieve that by retaining the present Anglo-American alliance as a bridge.
I have just come back from France. The pathetic belief in the efficacy of N.A.T.O. worries me. One can walk about streets in France and see the slogans, "Once again another Indo-China". Last week, prices went up by 10 to 15 per cent., and the country cannot
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stand the strain. Yet hon. Gentlemen are saying that we must help France all we can. Do they mean that we should send troops into Algiers? Is the Prime Minister prepared to put British troops into Algiers to help France? Of course not. Were we prepared to put troops into French Indo-China? But the position in French Indo-China was similar to that in Algeria. This country should be acting as a mediator and encouraging the French to adopt the same brave solution about Algeria as the Labour Government adopted over Burma, Ceylon and India.
Hon. Members on this side of the House are united about what should be our policy in the Far East, and I think that our view is shared by most of the hon. Members opposite. We should be working to bring China into her rightful position in the United Nations organisation. Once that is achieved, most of the difficulties in the Pacific and over Asia will not disappear, but will be easier of solution. I do not want to appear to be critical of America, but she is mainly responsible for the situation at Taiwan or Formosa. It frightens me that a nation like America should pretend to recognise a "rump" like Chiang Kai-shek. That is sheer idiocy in international affairs, and the sort of thing which will plunge us into a world war.
We have heard too much of the "realists" in the last ten years. We were told that rearmament was the solution, and that we could afford 10 per cent. of our national income on it and still be strong. Now we find that we have bread lines in Birmingham. We cannot afford such a policy of rearmament. The realists said that it would bring peace, but all that it has brought is the present position of unease. America is not entirely to blame for the present position in Formosa or French Indo-China. As much as anything, it is the responsibility of the Allies.
I cannot understand the attitude of the realists in international affairs. They looked to Bao-Dai to rescue French Indo-China. But look at the history of this puppet. When France was being torn limb from limb and eventually collapsed, Bao-Dai went to the Japanese and was selected as emperor, while the leader, Ho Chi-Minh was fighting against the Japanese to the last man. But we chose

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to disrespect him and it is Bao-Dai, the casino gambler, the playboy of the Far East, whom we, in this House of Commons, claimed to have recognised. I raised my voice against that recognition at the time. If we recognised China and gave her her rightful place, I believe that Chou En-lai could proceed with his third policy which he is trying to implement. I believe that there is a peaceful solution to the Taiwan position. The Chinese army on Taiwan is growing older, and if the Chinese were told that it would still come to China, I believe that in such a transition a peaceful solution could be found. We should encourage America to adopt that peaceful solution.
There are two other points which I consider to be of fundamental importance. Last year I came back from the Far East, and I am not concerned with what other people tell me because I can see things for myself. China is not a Utopia, but those people believe in something. Since the Revolution, I have been to Russia ten times. I am not saying that we should agree with the system, but there the people believe in something. Unless we in the West can have as great a belief in the principles of democracy, and are prepared to make sacrifices like the Chinese and the Russians, the Western world will lose the struggle for leadership. This is the real factor in the world today, and here we sit "waffling" about little frontiers in Europe while we neglect a great area where volcanic things have taken place which will have a dynamic effect upon the world.
What about S.E.A.T.O.? If ever a treaty was signed which was nothing but a shadow, it is that. I am convinced that at the Commonwealth Conference, Nehru said he had no faith in that treaty. Why do not the Government give America a chance to change her views? Why do we not call a conference of Pacific Powers anywhere in the Far East, in order to promote a sense of dignity among Asiatic men? We should invite China, Russia and all the Pacific Powers. Let us have a new lead in the Pacific. Have this Government the courage to do that? I do not think so. As far as the international scene is concerned, the quicker we get rid of the present Government the better it will be for world peace.
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The new cliché is "economic aid". Everyone says that all we have to do is to cut armaments and move in with economic aid and then we shall have the new Utopia. The United States and Britain have poured billions of dollars into China and South-East Asia and all over the Far East during the last ten years, and what has happened? The puppet figures who got hold of the money never raised the standard of life of the people. It depends on where the economic aid goes.
It is possible to give economic aid without improving the standard of life of the people. In his famous book on the economics of Burma, Furnival showed how between 1870 and 1940, despite the £1 million Britain put into Burma Railways, the standard of life dropped 20 per cent. Why? Because imperialism drove its railways and roads for the production of raw materials for Western man. Economic aid must do more than that. It must guarantee dignity and social stability.
As Professor W. MacMahon Ball said in his book "Communism and Nationalism in East Asia," stability of prices for Asia's raw materials is worth more than five Colombo Plans. What plans have the Government for achieving stability of prices of primary products like rubber, tin and the other raw materials of Asia? That would be more important than economic aid. We should be using the United Nations for that at the moment, and getting back to a civilised world.
I beg the Government to consider some of the suggestions which I have made. So long as Western man uses the Pacific Ocean as a lake in which to explode his hydrogen bombs and so destroy the health of the South Sea Islanders, destroy fish and make others radio-active and poisonous to everybody, whether to Russians or to capitalists, so long will Eastern man not think much of Western man's civilisation. No wonder Asia is cynical when it hears all this talk about the "free world" while we still test our hydrogen bombs in his territory, and not in ours.
8.13 p.m.
Major H. Legge-Bourke: The hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) said that he had some part in writing "Keep Left" and "Keeping

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Left". Tonight he has shown the House that he is well and truly jammed left.
There was, however, one gleam I caught from towards the end of his speech, when he pointed out the ease with which great advances of money from the United States and the British Commonwealth could be misused, and the very little results we saw from the spending of vast millions of dollars. I am in almost complete agreement with that part of his speech. It is important that we should see results when these vast sums are spent.
This picks up a point which was made by the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) earlier today. If it is true that the backward areas need a great deal of money—I do not dispute it—it is very important to make sure that the machinery is there first so that the money is properly spent. Ever since I came into this House I have said that the job in which the United Nations could show results was welfare work rather than political work. We are apt, when we talk about the needs of the backward areas, to forget the enormous sums of money which have been poured out by this country into Commonwealth countries since the war.
We are apt to lose sight of the enormous contribution that Britain has made to the Commonwealth and to assume that because our contributions to funds promoted by the United Nations and other such organisations are not as great as the contributions of other nations, we have not been doing all we ought. I cannot remember the sum, but I know that over the years we have spent thousands of millions of pounds. It is important not to forget that fact.
I will now leave the speech of the hon. Member for Leek and come back to the speech made by the Prime Minister. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have thanked him and paid tribute to the quality of that speech and to what the Prime Minister was able to clarify by it. One of the most significant phrases in the whole of the speech was when the Prime Minister referred to the enormous effect of the deterrent. He said that he would not say that it was necessarily the final deterrent for all time. We all have to consider this most serious problem of how long the supreme deterrent of the moment will remain
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supreme. Most of us, whatever our party, will agree that the effect of the deterrent, since the discovery of the hydrogen bomb and probably since the discovery of the atom bomb, has been enormous.
Whether or not these facts have been responsible for bringing about the change of attitude in the Kremlin, none would deny that the hydrogen weapon is the supreme deterrent of war today. The world knows that to use the hydrogen bomb would make it highly probable that even those who never actually saw it drop would rot away because of the effect of strontium on the marrow in their bones, and so forth. I do not profess to be a nuclear physicist, and it would be out of place to talk about nuclear physics in a foreign affairs debate, but I suggest that there is a great deal of misinformation on the subject of atomic energy and nuclear fission.
As politicians, we should bear in mind the whole time that although nuclear fission has led to the production of a deterrent so appalling that we can almost say that it is the absolute deterrent, we can still ask whether it will be a deterrent when there is nuclear parity. There may come a time when the Soviet Union is equally strong and has as many hydrogen bombs as we have.
Mr. E. Fernyhough: How many will it need?
Major Legge-Bourke: I have no idea. I am not an expert in nuclear fission. I do not know how many of these bombs make a deterrent. I know that because one Power today is preponderant in the possession of the nuclear-fission deterrent it is preventing any likelihood of a third world war.
Mr. Zilliacus: I think it was the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) who said on 1st March, 1955, that saturation point in the hydrogen bomb was the point not of equality, but where either side had enough to destroy the other. The Minister of State said last autumn that in his view we had already reached saturation point.
Major Legge-Bourke: It may be that we have. I shall not quibble about the definition of "saturation" or "equality". It may be that the two things are the

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same in this context. If we have reached saturation point, and if the nations are now beginning to realise that if that weapon were used at all, as the Prime Minister said today, we might very well destroy mankind, is there not the risk, over the years, of our getting back to a state such as we were in before the days of bows and arrows, before the days of the atomic bomb, as distinct from those of the hydrogen bomb?
Mr. Maurice Orbach: Surely it is wrong to talk of going back. At the time we conceived the idea of using rifles or guns, it would have been ridiculous to have considered going back to bows and arrows.
Major Legge-Bourke: I see the force of the hon. Member's argument, but I cannot help recalling what the Prime Minister said about gas in the First World War, the threat of its use in the Second World War and what would happen if it were used—and the fact that it never was used.
I am not suggesting for a moment that this is the only weapon to take into consideration. I am suggesting that however distasteful the prospect may be, it may well be that we are approaching the testing time in which we must look to our defences. Such a testing time occurred after the First World War, roughly between 1920 and 1936. Such a time may well now be approaching us after the Second World War. One of my main objects when entering the House in 1945 was that I might be able to play some part in preventnig the country from making the ass of itself which it made after the First World War through imagining that the First World War was a war to end all wars.
I congratulated Lord Attlee, when he was Prime Minister, on his very courageous decision about rearmament. I have done so previously in my constituency and have no objection to doing it here. In my opinion, the Labour Government of that time deserved great credit. They had the support of the Opposition of that time, of which I was a Member. They deserved credit for their courage in introducing conscription and all the other unpleasantnesses involved in a rearmament programme in peace-time. They earned the gratitude of the country.
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There is now a great danger, however, that we are moving into a phrase in which, if we want to secure world peace, Britain will have to remember the whole time that just because there is one appalling weapon which, as the hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) said may have reached saturation point, it does not follow that there are not other weapons which might also be used against us.
I do not want to turn the debate into a defence debate for the remainder of the evening, but the Prime Minister said that the fact that the hydrogen bomb was the deterrent now did not mean that it would be the deterrent for all time; and it may be that as one of the consequences we shall have seriously to consider what we are to do to provide ourselves with more conventional weapons. I have suggested on other occasions that we may have not merely to rethink our strategy but also to rethink the methods by which we preserve peace in other parts of the world from those under discussion today. The time may well come when we shall have to have a colonial police force rather than an Army to do it, but I cannot go into the details of that today.
I want to emphasise a point which has been made in different ways by several hon. Members during the debate—the importance of remembering that however good one's foreign policy and strategy may be in theory, unless one has the economic wherewithal to carry it out, one will not succeed. This is the crux. As my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State knows, I have tried to stress on previous occasions that in my opinion, for a country in the position in which we found ourselves after the war, only two courses are open: either we keep a rigid machinery, operated by the State, to control our economy, or we have the right to discriminate in our trade policy overseas. This, I believe, lies at the heart of the solution of our problems, particularly the European problems.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) spoke of the possibility of a common market in Europe. Some play has been made of Disraeli's name and my use of some of his words. My hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) said that he thought Disraeli was out of date and had very little relevance today. Perhaps I might remind

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the House of one thing which Disraeli said which is very true today. He said that if Europe ever, through her shortsightedness, fell into a state of exhaustion, for England there would remain an illustrious future because England was associated as closely with the New World as with the Old. I do not think that anyone will regard that as out of date in the present context.
The problem of how European countries are to carry the burden which they must carry if they are to be safe in the world, not only militarily but economically, is, I believe, Europe's key problem. I believe that at the moment we are attempting the impossible. One of the reasons I have always opposed any form of federation in Europe is that, in my view, if it were to take place it would be dominated by one of two countries—either Germany or the United States. I do not want to see it dominated by either. I would much sooner see the development of a system which has been so successful in our Commonwealth—an association of sovereignties, as it was described earlier today, rather than a form of federation. I despair because there seem to be so few people of any party in the House who are prepared to offer an alternative to these ideas of federation which Europe is putting forward—an alternative which would be better than federation could possibly be.
The answer, I believe, is for the debtor nations in Europe—and we must not forget that we are debtor nations—to come together, and to say, "We will discriminate in trade, one with another, whatever America says". After all, America discriminates in her own trading policy. She may have reduced her tariffs, but where did she start from, com pared with us? Simply on the argument that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander—and, heaven knows, we need the sauce more than they do—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: And the gander.
Major Legge-Bourke: I do not want to turn the debate into a civil aviation debate, although I see the force of the hon. Member's interjection.
I know that all the trade experts and economists say that if we adopted such a policy there would automatically be vicious retaliation against us. The sort of Europe which I want to see and the sort of trade policy for this country is
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one in which our old associations and tariff arrangements are brought up to date. In other words, I want us to review the Ottawa Agreements and to cut out G.A.T.T. Let us have a second tier of preferences and tariffs with the other debtor countries of Europe. That is the only hope for the economy of this country in the end. As long as we refuse to face up to the issue of running the risk of American unpopularity, we shall have to muddle along and we shall find the task of carrying the defence programme extremely burdensome.
We need to develop our industries and to continue to improve the standard of living of our people. At the moment, we are in a completely false position. Our economy is in a perilous state. Since the war we have proved that we did not do very much better with State controls so long as we denied ourselves the right to discriminate in trade. We have tried to carry on with out-of-date agreements of 1932. Our position is still perilous.
More than anything else the problem we have to face is a foreign affairs problem. The Foreign Office has its Economic Department. What is it doing? Is it trying to persuade the Americans to see our point of view? Is it working as closely as it should with the Board of Trade? Do not let it be assumed that this is purely an Imperial matter, purely a Commonwealth matter, purely a matter for the Colonial Secretary and the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations. This is a matter in which the Foreign Secretary of Great Britain should say to the United States, "If you want us to withstand totalitarianism and not to have to adopt the same system because, otherwise, we shall be ruined, if you want us to be a free nation trading with free nations, you must allow us the right to discriminate in our trade policy." That is what should be said every day to Washington.
In my view, there are two sorts of Americans. There are the Americans who are splendid military Allies, whom, during the war, we all learned to love and respect. There is another type of American that I do not like nearly so much; the type that really does want to smash the British Empire as a trading organisation. I do not believe that those people are Allies at all, and we should have no hesitation in saying so. We

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should stand up boldly and say to the Americans "We mean to make through, but we cannot for very much longer try to meet all your demands. We are grateful to you for all the money you spent to help Europe after the war, but for heaven's sake realise that if you want the British Empire to be with you in this military alliance, this containment of the spread of Communism, you must ensure that the British economy is allowed to survive." At the moment, what we are heading for, I believe, is its complete and utter destruction.
Those may be strong words, but they are certainly not spoken in any form of criticism of my right hon. Friends. I say this simply because I believe that over many years they have been badly advised by certain people who ought to know better. I believe that it is because they are so beset with the idea that we must not say anything to annoy the Americans that we have not been tougher with them so far. I do not believe that my right hon. Friends can be expected to be tough unless we who support them urge them to be so, and even if I am the only one in this debate to say it I think that it is worth saying.
I admire the Americans enormously. I am far more interested in being friends with the Americans than with the Germans. My feelings about all the talk of the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) on the subject of being friends with Germany is this. The Germans put a bullet through my father's head. They did their best to drop a bomb on me and on many of whom I am extremely fond, and I do not believe that a series of lectures on demokratismus at Wilton Park will transform them into democrats overnight. I forgive them all the iniquities they have committed in this world, but I do not trust them. I think that one of the best things that ever came out of the Second World War was that Germany was divided. I hope that she will be divided for the rest of my life, because as long as she is divided I do not think she can be as great a danger as she has been.
I do not believe that the Americans want to fight another European war, and if they do not want to fight another European war they must ensure that the British economy is allowed to survive.
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That is why I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary will realise that it is by the Foreign Office that the problem must be solved, and that he will not wait for the Commonwealth or the Colonial Territories to come in on this. It is British policy from the British Foreign Office and it should be the British Ambassador saying so in Washington.
8.34 p.m.
Mr. A. E. Hunter: I am very pleased to have an opportunity to speak in this debate, not because I claim to be an expert on foreign affairs, as many hon. Members on both sides of the House are, but because I feel that, to some extent, a lay person should state his opinion on international affairs. I am glad to say that I do not share the pessimism of the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke). He seems to believe that there must be another world war—at least that is the impression that I got from his speech. I do not believe that it is nuclear weapons only that are stopping the Third World War today. I believe in mankind, and that people in every country are more kindly, more tolerant than they were centuries ago.
I do not believe that the ordinary people in any land believe in the old story that the sword can win glittering prizes or settle international disputes. I do not believe that the ordinary people of any land want another world war. I do not believe that there is any fundamental quarrel between the people of Britain and America, the people of Britain and Germany or the people of Britain and Russia. I have always taken my stand on peace in the belief that there is no fundamental quarrel between the peoples of the world.
I want to speak for a few minutes on Anglo-Russian relations. I made my first speech in the House just over twelve months ago, when I supported the Foreign Secretary's policy regarding the four-Power Conference at Geneva. I urged the Foreign Secretary to go on with those four-Power talks, because in this age of nuclear weapons, and H-bombs it would be better to have years of four-Power talks without success than one day of war. Therefore, I am very pleased that those four-Power talks were held last summer and that we can say today that Anglo-Russian relations are far better than they have been since 1945.

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I believe that the question of peace is far above party policy, and that if we can get better relations between Britain and Russia it will be a basis on which we can build world peace. I remember the late Mr. Ernest Bevin saying, during his period as Foreign Secretary, that if he could get one sign from Russia, the lifting of a little finger in friendship, he would seize it with both hands. I believe that today there is a far better relationship between Britain and the Soviet Union.
I think that the visit here of the Soviet leaders in April has led to a better understanding. The policy of peaceful co-existence which they advocate and which this Government, I am certain, advocate is a policy which this whole House should support. The Prime Minister is paying a return visit in May. I am quite certain that hon. Members on both sides of the House wish him success in improving Anglo-Soviet relations.
There are three points with which I want to deal very briefly. One good sign is the visits of people from Russia to this country and the visits of people from this country to the Soviet Union. I am certain that the more that we can get Russian people to visit this country and British people to visit Russia the greater will be the improvement in Anglo-Soviet relations. The ordinary people of the Soviet Union are visiting this country. We are getting their industrial workers, their transport workers, and their shop workers, and we are also getting their sportsmen, football teams, athletes and artists. We have a Russian ballet coming here in October and people from other cultural centres. We have our own delegates going to Russia. We have our industrial workers, our footballers, our boxers and also our artists going there, and I am certain that the greater the exchange between the two countries the better it will be for both. I hope very much that the Government will encourage these exchanges. May they roll on like the River Thames, the Mississippi and the Don. I am quite certain that the effect of the exchanges will be all to the good.
I express my pleasure at the Prime Minister's statement about the acceptance of the offer of the Soviet Foreign Secretary to hold a conference on the banning of the hydrogen bomb tests and
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nuclear weapons. That is a big step forward. If we can get international control of the tests I believe that it will be possible to go forward to an even greater stage of general disarmament.
The third point I wish to stress is general disarmament. Russia has definitely made a token to the Western world by reducing her armed forces by over 1 million men, and I understand that the United States of America is now considering large reductions. I trust that we shall not lag behind. If we can secure some general policy on disarmament, that will bring relief not only in respect of international tension but in the great strain caused by the burden of armaments on our economic situation.
Such a move nearly succeeded in 1931, when there was the Disarmament Conference called by the League of Nations. The late Mr. Arthur Henderson took a leading part as chairman. The plan nearly succeeded before the rise to power of Hitler. Now, in 1956, the world has another chance. It is not necessary for me to dwell upon the horror of the hydrogen bomb or nuclear weapons. We know that with these weapons whole cities, whole nations, may be wiped out overnight. I believe that in the latter part of the twentieth century mankind has another chance, a chance to save our Christian civilisation and our culture. I ask the Government not only to ban the nuclear tests but to go forward with a general policy of disarmament so that our Christian civilisation can lead the world to a new era for mankind.
8.43 p.m.
Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: The last time I followed the hon. Member for Feltham (Mr. Hunter) was when he made his maiden speech, which I still recall as a very good maiden speech. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not comment on what he said tonight. These debates tend to become rather desultory and very far-ranging. We survey mankind from China to Peru. The particular corner of the world which I propose to discuss is Palestine.
In common with many other hon. Members, I have visited Israel and Jordan recently. I was there in April. It was a moving and impressive experience, from the point of view of politics today, of ancient history, religion, and

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natural beauty. But it was more than moving or impressive: it was exceedingly unsettling, much more unsettling than I expected.
We have a habit in this country of getting used to critical situations. I am afraid that we have got used to the Israel-Arab problem. We think that because it has drifted on for eight years it will go on drifting on. It is like any other irritant. We live with it, and we get used to it. Things are not just as bad as they were; they are much worse than they were.
My theme tonight is to beg the House and the Government to treat this problem as one not only of urgency, but of growing urgency. We regularly pay tribute to General Burns, to the Armistice Commission and to Mr. Hammarskjold and the successful ameliorating work which he has recently undertaken; but they are only propping up the crumbling front of peace, and with every day that goes by, failing an international attempt to arrive at a settlement, the danger of war grows. It is not simply the danger of war between Israel and the Arab States. It is the danger of world war, of war that will drag us in, through the Tripartite Declaration, and of complications that may spread all round the globe.
My first appeal to the House is not to take sides. I know it is difficult for people in this House who have Jewish blood in them not to take sides. They feel the call of that blood, and they feel bound to stand up for their kin. Nevertheless, I beg all in this House who have Jewish blood or connections not to take sides. Personally, I found it very easy not to take sides. I felt that there was so very much to be said against each side and for them. It is far too complex and perilous a situation for it to be safe to take up a partisan attitude. It is so easy to do it, but it is far too dangerous.
Who can fail to admire the Jewish endeavour in Israel? Who can fail to admire their courage and their industry? Who can say that they are not entitled to at least one small corner of the world that they can call their own—and that their historic homeland? Taking the other side, who, if he is honest with himself, can excuse the Jewish treatment of the Arabs? Who can fail to grieve at the sad irony that a nation which is, par excellence, the nation of refugees has
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itself caused 1¼ million Arab refugees? These are facts. There are many explanations—
Mr. Barnett Janner: Is the hon. Member not putting it wrongly when he says that that was caused by anyone other than the Arabs themselves? He should be fair. The fact is that the Arabs told these people to come out.
Mr. Nicholson: That shows the extreme danger of indulging in partisan argument. There are many arguments. The plain fact is that Israel is littered with the ruins of Arab villages to which Arabs are not permitted to return.
If I were a Jew, I hope and trust that I should be the most fervent Israeli patriot. I hope I should have fought to the death in the war of liberation. I give full credit to the Jews for their courage and their patriotism. It is perfectly easy to put oneself in their place, and I do so with humble admiration. As a friend of both sides, however, I do not intend to gloss over the failings and the sins of either side. Friends of Jewry must recognise that the Jews have done a great injury to 1¼ million Arabs in not letting them come back after the war. I put it that way not to cause offence.
The fact that there are unanswerable arguments each way from the point of view of the Jews does not make the problem any easier, or make it any wiser to indulge in partisan sentiment. Who can blame the Arabs for resentment? Who can fail to feel for the expatriates, but who can excuse the Arabs for failing to try to reach a settlement? Who can excuse them for keeping 1¼ million refugees in a living death in refugee camps purely as a political instrument? Who can fail to pity both sides for their justifiable causes of complaint? Who can fail to pity them for the criminal errors into which they have both fallen? I feel deeply for the Arabs, as I do for the Jews. But I deplore the failure of the Arabs to face reality and to face facts.
I only bring out these opposing arguments to show that the situation is not a simple one. It is not a situation in which all the right is on one side and all the wrong, is on the other side. It is like most human and historic problems, where it is easy to see oneself acting as a Jew, had one been a Jew, and as an

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Arab, if one had been an Arab. It is a situation for compassion and not for blame. It is not my purpose to indulge in a partisan argument, or to allocate blame, or to trace the cause of what is one of the most tragic pages of recent history. It is my object tonight to try to face reality, to try to face the facts. If we trace back any political argument to the past, we only become bogged down.
We are faced with this fact, that this is almost a case of the irresistible force meeting the immovable object. Neither of the two sides will budge an inch. It is proposed that there should be negotiations, but we shall never persuade these two sides to meet in the same conference room or even in adjoining conference rooms. This is a first-class problem of first-class difficulty. Yet if we funk it, if we become used to the situation, if we let it alone, if we tell ourselves that it will work itself out, if we say, "They will find a way out, they will find a modus vivendi," we delude ourselves. It is vain to hope that a situation so fraught with peril, so exceedingly explosive, can ever settle down by itself.
But there is indeed room for a reasonable settlement, if we approach it in the right way. The prerequisite condition is that the settlement must be an imposed settlement, a settlement imposed from outside, and equally disliked by each side.
I do not want it to be thought that I am forgetting the question of Egypt. That is a separate question. I do not believe that Egypt is in the cold war against the Jews from the same motives as Jordan and the other Arab States. If we want an explanation of the Egyptian attitude we must seek it in the fact that in Egypt there is a dictator who has risen to power on the back of the army, and who must go on playing up to the army. So I leave Egypt out.
I return to the point that the settlement must be an imposed settlement, imposed from outside, and one which is equally disliked by both sides. It is very easy to devise a settlement which is disliked by both sides, but it is difficult to make one which is equally disliked by both sides. That settlement must be made by the United Nations. It cannot be imposed by us. It cannot be imposed by the Americans. It certainly will not be imposed by France. It cannot be
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imposed by the Tripartite signatories. It must be proposed by the United Nations, and the purpose of my speech tonight is to get it on record that at least one hon. Member of this House feels that first among, or at least equal with the many important objects facing the Government is the need to sponsor as soon as possible a move to obtain a settlement of this issue by the United Nations.
Now for the conditions. I will take the Jewish side first. I think the Jews must admit that they have caused grave injury to many Arabs. I do not mean to say that they have done equal injury to all the Arabs. The refugees who had farms in Palestine have, perhaps, suffered the most, but between 80 per cent. and 90 per cent. of the Arab refugees were landless labourers, who will be as happy in any Arab country as they were in the Arab villages in Palestine.
The Jews must be brought to admit that there have been faults on both sides and that their fault has been towards the Arab refugees. They must compensate for it, I think, by consenting to accept 100,000 or 150,000 Arabs back into Palestine. A short time ago the Israeli Government offered to take 100,000 Arabs back. That offer was not accepted, and the offer has now been withdrawn. That offer must be renewed. I certainly received the impression, and I have heard nothing to contradict it, that the Arab citizens of Palestine lead their own lives and benefit from the whole structure of the Israeli State, are well-treated, and are loyal citizens.
As to the refugees who are not taken back, that problem will mean a great deal of hard cash. I do not know how it will be raised, whether by a Jewish loan in America or by a loan through the United Nations. I am sure that the Western Powers can find the money when they realise that a settlement of the Palestine problem may well save them from another world war. The cost will run at least to £200 million or £300 million. Much of that must go towards the settlement of the refugees and the development of the land in which they are settled.
The Arabs must face facts. It is no good saying, "We, the Arabs, will never rest until we have driven the Israelis into the sea." That is not a grown-up attitude. The Arabs must "be their age". They must recognise the existence of

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Israel as a nation and that, rightly or wrongly, that nation has come to stay. No nation in the world has not had to recognise the right of another nation to a place by conquest and occupation. The Arabs must accept the compensation offered and they must co-operate with the United Nations and with the Israelis to resettle the Arab refugees. There are thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of square miles in that part of the world where, if the money is spent and there is the will to labour, conditions of prosperity can be created.
The Arabs have it in them to make the desert blossom as the rose, just as much as have the Jews. Nothing is more striking than to see in those countries what resurgent Arab nationhood means. It is possible to hope that good may come out of evil and that the gospel of peace may once more be preached where it was originally preached, and where, today, the gospel of hatred is supreme.
I do not despair, but I shall despair if this House and the Western world are content to let matters drift and to say, "Bravo, Mr. Hammarskjold, and bravo, General Burns. You have staved off another war for a week, or a year, or more." This problem is acute. I ask the House to face it in that spirit and, above all, not to let natural partisan spirit prevail. Let us knock their heads together and try to knock some sense into both sides.
Mr. Janner: Has the hon. Member at any time attempted to read any of the speeches made on both sides in relation to this matter? Is he not aware that time after time the Prime Minister of Israel has called upon the Arabs to stop all this kind of thing and try to come together with a view to a settlement? Will the hon. Member read those speeches before making another speech of the kind that he has just delivered?
Mr. Nicholson: I have certainly read all that. I am not taking sides for or against anyone, but I have never read a speech in which the Israelis have recognised the reason why the Arabs have their natural resentment.
Mr. Janner: That is all nonsense.
Mr. Nicholson: If the hon. Member asks me a question, he might at least listen to my answer. The hon. Gentleman
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does not like it. No Israeli likes to be told that his nation has created 1¼ million refugees. It may have been inevitable. If I had been a Jew I frankly admit that I should have done the same, but until these bitter facts are faced there is no prospect of a settlement.
9.0 p.m.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: I do not intend any discourtesy to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) if I do not follow him into a discussion of the affairs of Palestine. I agree that those are important, but the theme that must dominate this debate is the opening speech by the Prime Minister. I, for one, welcomed very much the tone of that speech, and I agree with all the tributes that have been paid to the right hon. Gentleman for the initiative he has taken during the last two years in trying to bring about some understanding between ourselves and the Soviet Union. We have had Mr. Khrushchev and Mr. Bulganin here and the Prime Minister is to go to Moscow. That is a good thing, and I can hardly think that we shall go back into the frigidity and hostility of the cold war.
I have had the interesting experience of hearing the National Anthem sung exquisitely in London by the Soviet Army. This taught me for the first time that there was music in the National Anthem. We have had the Archbishop of York engaged in theological combat with his counterpart in Moscow, and so the interchange of courtesies goes on. I hope that this will continue until we have it reflected in diplomatic success and the assurance that we are not to have a war in the H-bomb age.
Of course, there was a certain amount of self-righteousness in the speech of the Prime Minister, which I am prepared to forgive the right hon. Gentleman because of his other activities. He welcomed the liberalisation of Russia—with a small "I"—and so do I. I always welcome the news that anybody has been released from gaol. Unfortunately, I was there so long myself that, whatever may be the political complexion of a released prisoner, I always welcome the news that one has been released from gaol.
It is good to release prisoners from gaol, but there are other things in the world besides people being in gaol. I

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hope that when the Prime Minister meets Mr. Khrushchev and Mr. Bulganin the former will not ask, "Why did you sack that fellow Lang?" Equally, I hope that if the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary happen to go to the United States they will say, "Is it not time you had a little liberalisation over there and let Mr. Paul Robeson come over to sing to the Scottish miners?" I do not think that we should be so self-righteous as to imagine that this is the free world; that all the conglomeration of nations in N.A.T.O., from Turkey and indirectly Fascist Spain, represent the free, liberal world and that the other people are in outer darkness.
One thing which came out of the speech of the Prime Minister was that the discovery of the H-bomb has made pacifism popular. All the preachings and arguments of pacifists like myself during the years have counted for nothing compared with the arrival of the H-bomb. Of course, the argument about the H-bomb works both ways. After all the piling up of armaments since 1951 we are not negotiating with Russia from a position of strength. We are in just the same dilemma as Russia is in because, if war starts, presumably we shall be annihilated in just about the same time as the Russians, and there is not much satisfaction about that. Therefore, for the sheer sake of self-preservation, we have all to rethink our ideas about foreign policy, and, if we are to live together in a world where nations can be wiped out in a few days, we must all do our best to take the initiative to make a world in which an H-bomb war would be impossible.
There is one thing I do not like about the new Russian line of thought. I like most of it. I think the Russians are showing commendable initiative in foreign affairs. However, I do not like the words "competitive co-existence". If we are to substitute economic war for political and military war, we shall dissipate the energies of mankind in such a way that the result may be a tremendous waste of human endeavour on both sides of the Iron Curtain in pursuing economic war in order to obtain markets for our respective countries.
I suggest that it should be put to the Russians that if we are to talk in terms of disarmament we should endeavour to arrange an economic conference of the
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United Nations to face the economic problems which will inevitably come to the world if we are all to disarm. I remember going on a very unpopular mission to Moscow, in 1953, when the Russians held an economic conference at which as many people as would go there discussed the future economic problems of the world.
Now that there is almost general agreement about the need for military disarmament, I believe that we should take the initiative in calling a special conference of the United Nations to discuss the whole economic future of the world, to outline a ten- or twenty-year project for the economic planning of the world which will aim at the raising of the standard of life of the people whether they be on this side or the other side of the Iron Curtain, whether they live in Asia, Africa or any other part of the world.
If we took that line, we should make an immense impact upon Russian public opinion. Russia believes in five-year or ten-year plans; she believes in planning ahead. Instead of talking about competitive co-existence, as though we have to fight economically if not politically or militarily, we should put to the world in which we are living in the H-bomb age the idea that every intelligent statesman in the world realises the futility of a war which can lead only to universal suicide.
I should like this country to say to Russia, "We are not keen on competitive co-existence. The time has come when we should try to abolish competition in the world. The West and the East, with their industrial resources, can work together as humanity and not as the West and the East. The time has come when it is economically possible to have a ten-year or twenty-year peace plan for raising the standard of life of all the peoples of the world". That is a challenge which the Russians would not hesitate to accept. If we can think in terms of the abolition of economic war as well as political war, we can take the initiative in moving forward to a greater development of the life of human beings throughout the world.
9.10 p.m.
Mr. Arthur Henderson: In rising to wind up today's debate for the Opposition, I do not propose to deal with the many matters of

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world-wide importance to which hon. Members have referred in the various interesting speeches which have been made tonight. It is my purpose to concentrate on the recent disarmament discussions in New York which have just concluded. I will remind the House of the background of those discussions.
We are now eleven years from the termination of the Second World War, and yet today the world remains a vast armed camp. It has been estimated that £40,000 million a year are spent on armaments and that about 15 million men are under arms. That expenditure of manpower and money not only imposes a crushing burden on the world, but diverts immense sums which might be better utilised for improving the standards of living throughout the world and in particular in the less developed countries.
Looming up are even greater dangers to which reference has been made by various speakers today, including the Prime Minister. The atom bomb and the hydrogen bomb constitute weapons of human destruction never before equalled in the history of mankind. More than a year ago the Manchester Guardian published an estimate that the United States then already possessed a stockpile of more than 4,000 atomic bombs and estimated that more than 1,000 were in the possession of the Soviet Union.
Those stockpiles have steadily increased since then, and undoubtedly the numbers must be much greater. The number of hydrogen bombs already stockpiled by the United States and Russia is not known, but is believed by those who make a study of these matters to be substantial. Again, the numbers are being steadily increased. What is clear is that the present stockpiles of both atomic and hydrogen bombs are sufficient, as the Prime Minister indicated earlier, to destroy mankind.
Indeed, to quote the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, the right hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Nutting)
"The world has now reached a point of infinite devastation."
Moreover there are good reasons for the view that by 1960, or thereabouts, intercontinental ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads, and with speeds exceeding that of sound and of a range of 3,000 to 5,000 miles will be in quantity production. The
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American representative at the Disarmament Commission recently stated that countries would then receive less than fifteen minutes' notice of imminent nuclear attack.
Who would deny, in those circumstances, that disarmament is necessary and urgent? yet this problem, which the political leaders of all countries have stated to be the most important facing the world today, after years of discussion has reached a deadlock. During the last five years the United Nations Disarmament Commission and its Sub-Committee have held more than a hundred meetings and have considered various plans and proposals set out in 32 memoranda and working papers. Plan and counter-plan, proposal and counter-proposal have followed one another with monotonous regularity.
It is difficult to appreciate that inconsistencies and manœuvrings which have characterised their deliberations concern a problem upon the solution of which the future of mankind depends. Since the high-level conference at Geneva last year international tension has lessened considerably. The Prime Minister indicated that this afternoon and I think that we will all agree. The great improvement in the international climate should have helped considerably towards a solution of the disarmament problem. Moreover, the unilateral reduction of their conventional forces by the Governments of the United States, the Soviet Union and the United Kingdom is a further indication of the improved international situation.
In spite of those reductions, however, the levels of conventional forces for both the Soviet Union and the United States of America remain today at approximately 2,800,000. These unilateral reductions are to be welcomed, and are a step in the right direction, but they are no substitute for the agreed and controlled limitation of armaments—because what is reduced unilaterally can be raised unilaterally. Further, in the nuclear age such reductions of manpower may leave quite unaffected the striking power of a nation equipped with atomic and hydrogon weapons and the means of delivering them. This will be even more the case once the inter-continental ballistic missile becomes operational.

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We have recently had actual experience of the uncertainty and unreliability of unilateral disarmament. Between 1945 and 1950 the United States of America reduced their conventional forces from 14 million to 1,400,000; the United Kingdom from 5 million to 680,000, and the Soviet Union from 14 million to about 4½ million. But the tense international situation which followed the Berlin blockade and the outbreak of the Korean War compelled the Western nations to reverse their policy and to embark upon a considerable build-up of their defence forces. If this sort of situation is not to arise again it is essential to achieve disarmament under the effective control of a general disarmament convention.
A great deal of criticism has been levelled against the Soviet Union on the ground of their inconsistency, but in my view Her Majesty's Government have been equally guilty of inconsistency. In May, 1952, the Western Governments proposed a ceiling of between 1 million and 1·5 million for the United States, the Soviet Union and China, and 750,000 for France and Britain. In the Anglo-French plan of June, 1954, the French and British Governments proposed major reductions in conventional forces. In March, 1955, the British and French Governments jointly repeated the 1952 numerical proposals, except that the ceiling of between 700,000 and 800,000 for Britain and France was to be reduced to 650,000.
In April of this year, in the revised Anglo-French plan, however, there was no reference whatsoever to numerical limitations. Her Majesty's Government now say that that matter can be left over and that in the final stage they will be ready to negotiate a final figure. I find it difficult to understand why, in 1952, when the international situation was tense, they were prepared to suggest a specific ceiling and then, in 1956, when it is admitted by hon. Members on both sides of the House that tension has been greatly eased, they want to leave the position so vague and indefinite, although the Soviet Union accepted the ceiling of between 1 million and 1·5 million more than a year ago.
In my view the Government were wrong in going back on their original proposals. Incidentally, on none of the
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occasions to which I have referred did they attach any conditions about political settlements. It was not until April, 1956, that the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs indicated that these ceilings were conditional on settlements in Germany and in the Far East. The omission of these ceilings of 1½ million and 650,000 was a serious weakness in the otherwise admirable revised plan which the British and French Governments put forward in March this year. I hope, therefore, that the Government will restore those ceilings as the target to be reached in the third year of the Anglo-French plan, when and if that comes to be put into operation.
The Government's second inconsistency relates to nuclear disarmament. At the conference of Foreign Ministers at Geneva on 10th November last year the then Foreign Secretary, now the Chancellor of the Exchequer, put forward on behalf of the Western Governments a draft four-Power declaration which contained no mention of nuclear disarmament but called for an early agreement on conventional armaments, to quote the words of the right hon. Gentleman, "as a first instalment." At the recent meeting of the Sub-Committee at Lancaster House criticism was again levelled against the Soviet Union for basing their own main proposals on conventional disarmament although, as I have just indicated, this is what the Western Governments had themselves suggested in November of last year at Geneva.
These shifts of position on the part of the Government must, I think, have greatly embarrassed both the Foreign Secretary and the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs as well as M. Jules Moch, the French delegate, all of whom have worked assiduously and zealously for disarmament agreement. May I here express my regret at the indisposition of the Minister of State, because I believe that he has worked very hard in these various meetings of the Disarmament Commission and the Sub-Committee?
The present deadlock is difficult to understand when we look at the General Assembly Resolution last December. On 16th December the General Assembly adopted a Resolution which requested the Disarmament Commission to continue its efforts—I think this is the crux of the present situation—for a comprehensive disarmament agreement but, as a first

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step, to give priority to an early agreement on and implementation of first:
"such confidence-building measures as President Eisenhower's plan for exchanging military blueprints and mutual aerial inspection, and Marshal Bulganin's plan for the establishment of control posts at strategic centres";
and, secondly,
"all such measures of adequately safeguarded disarmament as are now feasible."
It is difficult to understand why the early or partial agreement referred to by the General Assembly should prove so difficult in view of the substantial agreement already reached on a number of proposals.
Let me give to the House the proposals on which there is now substantial agreement between Western Governments and the Soviet Union, and which, in my view at any rate, represent a considerable advance. First, I take conventional manpower ceilings. The Soviet Union has now agreed, as a first step, to a conventional manpower ceiling of 2½ million for the Soviet Union, the United States and China, and 750,000 for Britain and France.
Second, there is the proposal for a corresponding reduction in armament expenditure.
Third, there is the proposal for a control and inspection system. In this connection, I want to anticipate any suggestion, it may be by the Foreign Secretary, that there is not complete agreement upon a control and inspection system. In this connection, Mr. Stassen, the United States representative, speaking in London on 7th May, said that the Russians and the West were closer on the form and nature of the control organ and its relationship to the Security Council of the United Nations.
The fourth proposal relates to ground control at strategic points. Fifth, there is the proposal for the cession of production of nuclear weapons. Strange as it may seem, each of the five Governments represented in the Disarmament Sub-Committee expressed their willingness to agree to the cessation of the production of nuclear weapons.
These are five substantial proposals upon which we may say there is complete agreement. Where are the differences? There are two main ones. The first is on the power of enforcement of the
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control organ. There can be no doubt that an effective control system is essential. The benefits of control are reciprocal. It will be in the interests of the East as much as of the West that international control should be effective in operation. Partial disarmament agreement should provide an opportunity of testing the effectiveness of the proposed control organ.
On the second difference, aerial inspection, I am bound to express my regret that the Soviet Union has not seen its way to agree to the proposal. The Soviet Government is not opposed to aerial inspection in principle, because on page 33 of the Fourth Report, and as part of its proposal for disarmament, I see this phrase:
"At a specified stage of the execution of the general disarmament programme, when confidence among States had been strengthened, the countries concerned shall consider the possibility of using aerial photography as one of the methods of control."
Whatever the objection is, it is not an objection in principle to the proposal for the use of aerial photography.
There is a psychological side to this proposal for the United States, which still has vivid memories of the Pearl Harbour surprise attack by Japan. I doubt if it will agree to a convention, whether partial, or the comprehensive, to which we look forward, unless there is something in the nature of a modified system of aerial inspection. I therefore hope that the Soviet Union will reconsider its decision and will accept that proposal in the interests of securing early agreement.
The Government should, therefore, press forward with the preparation of a draft convention embodying the proposals on which there is substantial agreement, while continuing their efforts to secure comprehensive agreement on the lines of the Anglo-French plan.
There is one other aspect of the problem to which I should like to refer. This afternoon the Prime Minister made what I think we all regard as a most impressive speech in relation to some of the international problems which confront us. We on these benches welcome his reference to the question of nuclear tests and the Government's intention to work out methods of limitation and control, but we should like a little more information on what the Government intend.

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I think the Prime Minister would agree that not only in this country but throughout the world there is a great deal of concern at the consequences of nuclear test explosions. We are told that this year the United States has conducted about nine explosions; that is not an official statement by the United States, but it has been widely reported in the Press. We do not know how many explosions have been carried out in the Soviet Union.
There has been a statement by one of the leading American scientists, Dr. Lapp, on 3rd July, who stated that current nuclear tests in the Pacific have brought the world much closer to the maximum safe level of radio-activity. That has been followed by a resolution passed by the Japanese Parliament calling for a cessation of the tests, and we have seen the communiqué issued following the meeting between Mr. Nehru and the Presidents of Yugoslavia and Egypt, also calling for the cessation of these nuclear tests.
Mr. Ellis Smith: And a large number of resolutions in this country.
Mr. Henderson: I said that there was a great deal of anxiety in this country as well as elsewhere in the world.
Will the Prime Minister answer these questions? First, do the Government intend to make proposals through diplomatic channels that there should be immediate discussions? If so, which Governments do Her Majesty's Government propose to approach? Secondly, have the Government any statement to make on the recent offer by Mr. Shepilov, the Soviet Foreign Minister? In reply to a question which I addressed to him last week, the Prime Minister said it was being studied by the Government. Have they any statement to make on that offer to enter into discussions with a view to banning the tests? It is certainly to be hoped that any discussions into which the Government may enter will be with a view to the eventual abolition of all nuclear test explosions.
Thirdly, is it the Government's intention to refer this study to the United Nations Sub-Committee, which I understand will not meet before November, or can we have an assurance that this matter is to be treated as a matter of some urgency, necessitating action now and not in three or four months' time? It would
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go a long way to reassure the Opposition if the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary, in the reply to the debate, could give an assurance on these matters.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: It is very kind of the right hon. and learned Gentleman to give way. He is doing his best to cover the Government with a certain moral guilt on these matters. Since he is speaking on behalf of the Labour Party, will he say that he does not wish the present Government to conduct hydrogen bomb tests in Australia in the coming winter?
Mr. Henderson: I would say to that, that if we get into international discussion and it is made a condition that with other Governments, the British Government shall agree to give up their forthcoming test or there will be no agreement; then no test to be made by this or any other Government should stand in the way of an international agreement to end all nuclear test explosions. The noble Lord's question, however is hypothetical.
Mr. John Peyton: The right hon. and learned Gentleman says that my noble Friend's question was hypothetical. I suggest to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that his answer has been so hypothetical as to be absolutely meaningless.
Mr. Henderson: I made it quite clear. I do not know what else the hon. Member would like me to say. I will just repeat that it is a matter entirely for the negotiations which are to take place with the other Governments concerned. All I say is that I am not in favour of the possibility of holding the British test being a bar to an international agreement.
Finally, the extent of the agreement already reached in the disarmament meetings indicates that there is chance of making definite headway; and the Government should exert their full influence to get some practical results without delay. To achieve even a limited agreement would contribute to the solution of outstanding political problems, would ease the burden of defence expenditure which lies so heavily upon the people, and would open up new prospects for the economic and social betterment not only of ourselves but of all the peoples of the world, and especially of the peoples of the less-developed countries.
9.36 p.m.
Mr. C. E. Mott-Radclyffe: Today's debate has naturally ranged over a very wide compass. We started with Germany and went on to the Middle East; we have touched on the Far East, and now the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) has spoken about disarmament. I hope that he will not think it discourteous on my part if I do not attempt to reply to the points which he raised on that subject, many of which were, in one sense, technical, but leave that reply in the far more capable and responsible hands of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary, when he speaks tomorrow.
Perhaps I may just say this to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, if he will forgive me. We all know the passionate conviction and sincerity with which he pursues the goal of disarmament. We agree with him, and respect him for it, but I think, perhaps, that he sometimes tends to get the problem a little out of perspective, particularly in relation to conventional weapons. I recall that it is only a matter of a little over a month since my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Defence reminded the House that in Eastern Germany today there are 22 Soviet divisions and seven East German divisions, whereas in Western Germany there are no more than five United States and four United Kingdom divisions. I think that that should bring out the disparity between the two conventional forces, and I mention it deliberately so that the problem should not be seen out of its proper perspective.
The right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said that he did not think that we should base our foreign policy upon military groupings. That is a slight paraphrase of what he said, but I think that I have represented him correctly. He also said that collective security should be switched from the military to the economic aspect. I do beg him not to go too fast on that particular line. Although it is perfectly true that there has been a change of policy in the Soviet Union, none of us in this country knows whether it is really a change of strategy or a change of tactics. There is, however, one question which we are all entitled to ask: Why has there been a new look? What has brought about the change? I think that there is only one answer. It
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is that the West and the free world built up their defences through N.A.T.O. If it had not been for N.A.T.O., I very much doubt whether there would have been any change of heart in the Soviet Union or whether the wind from the Ural mountains would have blown any warmer.
If, as the right hon. Gentleman implied, all the various military groupings which we have built up in the free world are to be scrapped, and if the economic functions which we put on them are also to pass into the wider field of the United Nations, then, frankly, I cannot go that far with him. I cannot think of anything more unwise than that we should scale down N.A.T.O. and S.E.A.T.O. or the Bagdad Pact and take away their economic as well as their military functions, because if we were to do that we should invite Soviet penetration just where I think Western interests are most vulnerable
Mr. Robens: I did not say that.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: If the right hon. Gentleman says that I am misquoting him, we will read what he said in HANSARD tomorrow. I listened to his speech and I took most of it down. I thought that he said that we ought not to base our foreign policy upon military groupings. He certainly said that, and I thought that he said that the economic functions of some of these military groupings, notably in respect of S.E.A.T.O. and the Bagdad Pact, ought to pass out of those particular groupings to the United Nations.
Mr. Robens: If the hon. Member will do me the honour of looking in HANSARD tomorrow at what I said on the two points which he has mentioned, he will find that I said that we should not base foreign policy on military groupings as an end in themselves; and on the question of economic aid, I said that I thought that it was a mistake to channel economic aid solely through military pacts and that that ought to be done through an international agency.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: I will not go into that too much. There is no need for a heated debate about this. I do not think that there is a great deal of misunderstanding between us about what the right hon. Gentleman said, and still less about what he meant.
Mr. Robens: The hon. Member inferred that I said that the military pacts ought to be "scrapped." I never used that word in the whole of the debate.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: If there is any difference between us, I regard the military pact as a means to an end and the right hon. Gentleman perhaps thinks that we have reached the end rather sooner.
Mr. Robens: I think that the hon. Member had better read my speech tomorrow.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: I think that we ought not to underestimate the value not only in military terms but in economic and political terms of the Bagdad Pact. It would be very unwise to underestimate them. Iraq is the only Arab country that belongs to the Bagdad Pact. So far as I am aware, she is the only Arab country which votes, I think by law, 70 per cent. of her immense oil revenues to development.
Mr. Robens: She did that before the Pact.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: I think that the right hon. Gentleman ought not to underestimate the value of the visit of King Feisal to this country. Do not let the right hon. Gentleman tell us that neither in the military nor in the economic sphere should we proceed any further with organisations like the Bagdad Pact, because I believe them to be part of the essential framework of the defence, both economic and military, of the Middle East.
Of course, we are living, as the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) said, in an era of what is now called "competitive co-existence". The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) does not like that phrase. I think that the difficulty about it is that competitive co-existence means one thing to us in the free world and quite another thing to those on the other side of the Iron Curtain. To us on this side of the Iron Curtain competitive co-existence means to live and to let live, and behind the Iron Curtain, in spite of the new look, it means the cold war, but not the hot war.
We have lived through the Stalin era, which was the era of threats. We have passed from that to the Malenkov era,
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which was the era of bluff bonhomie. We have now passed to the present era of Bulganin and Khrushchev, which I might describe—though this is only a guess—as the period of moral and political disarmament. None of us knows really whether the ultimate goal of the Soviet Union has changed. I am inclined to agree with the hon. Member for Woolwich, East that the ultimate goal of Communism, which is to envelop the free world, has not changed.
What has changed has been the timing, because behind the Iron Curtain they have a completely different conception of time from that which we have. We think of time in terms of years. Behind the Iron Curtain they think of time in terms of generations. Just because their conception of time is different it does not mean that still they have abandoned the ultimate goal of Communism, which is the envelopment of the Western world, not by methods of war but, now, by the new penetration by economic means and by what we call the cold war.
The right hon. Member for Blyth, when referring to the problem of the relations between Israel and the Arab States, made the suggestion that there should be a United Nations arms embargo. I very much wish that he had told us how the United Nations could enforce such an embargo. If the United Nations could do it, I should be all for it, but the right hon. Gentleman did not tell us how such an embargo could be enforced. I am not at all against what might be called the United Nations solution, or an attempt to get one. I hope wholeheartedly, with every hon. Member, that the mission of Mr. Hammarskjold will be successful. We all applaud the efforts of General Burns. Perhaps that there is a sort of ironic justice in the United Nations being asked to clear up what hitherto has appeared to be an insoluble problem.
When right hon. and hon. Members opposite were sitting on the Government benches and they handed over the mandate, they handed over to the United Nations, and they bluffed themselves, and probably many other people, into thinking that they were handing over the administration of what was Palestine to another authority which was capable of maintaining law and order and administration. In fact they were handing over

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the administration of Palestine to a vacuum, with the most ghastly results.
Perhaps it is right, in a sense, that the United Nations should now be called in to clear up the mess which, through no fault of their own, they created. This might bring home in a way which otherwise could not be brought home the full meaning of collective security, which is that everybody is in it. It is not collective security when somebody else takes the knocks and the rest do nothing about it.
The right hon. Member for Blyth asked for a new approach to the German problem. I was not quite certain what sort of new approach he meant. I listened to every word he said—
Mr. Robens: The hon. Gentleman has got it all wrong so far. He has probably got this point wrong too.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe:—but I do not think he meant, though I am not certain whether he really knew what he did mean himself, to abandon the principle of free elections. Did he mean that?
Mr. Robens: The answer is that we have said consistently from these benches that we stand by free elections in Germany for German reunification. We could go on saying it day after day.
Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: So long as the right hon. Gentleman is not abandoning the principle of free elections I do not mind what sort of an approach he has, but we must ask ourselves why it is that hitherto the Soviet Union has not shifted one inch on this vital issue of free elections in East Germany.
Some of the speeches made in this debate by hon. Members opposite have suggested that the Soviet Union might in certain circumstances be prepared to give way on the issue of free elections. I do not believe that it will. That is the one thing that it will hold out against, and I shall say why. There are two reasons. One is that if the Soviet Union gave way on the principle of free elections in Eastern Germany, it would lose the elections.
The other reason is that if the point of free elections is conceded in Eastern Germany, where does the Soviet Union go after that? If it says, "Very well. We
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will have free elections in Eastern Germany", it is difficult for it to say "No" to free elections in Poland, in Hungary or in any other Iron Curtain country. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] Because democracy is contagious and it sets up a kind of chain reaction. If the Soviet Union were to start by giving way on free elections in Eastern Germany, I do not quite know where it would end. That is why, for my part, I do not believe that the Soviet Union is at the moment prepared to give way on this vital point.
What we have really been discussing in today's debate, and what, no doubt, we shall continue to discuss tomorrow, is something which embraces not only the problem of the reunification of Germany, not only the problem of the relations between Israel and the Arab States, not only the problem of how we preserve peace and stability in the Middle East and how we can develop its resources, and not only the problems in the Far East, which the right hon. Member for Blyth touched upon, such as Quemoy, Matsu and Formosa. What we have really been discussing is how to maintain the right degree of collective security in conditions where there is a kind of détente between East and West and when nobody knows whether the détente is temporary or permanent. That is a frightfully difficult problem.
This is a problem which we may disagree about as between one side of the House and another but it is a problem which vitally affects the whole nation. Because it affects the whole nation, it also affects the whole of our relations with N.A.T.O. and with the free world. It is a problem which presents itself in a very acute form and poses a number of frightful questions, the answers to which are extremely difficult to decide upon, for it poses a problem of priorities when it is almost impossible to know what is priority number one, what is the second priority, and so on. One requires to be not only a diviner of the future but also a kind of King Solomon to execute the right judgment.
The Iron Curtain countries have their own system of collective security. It is much more rigid than ours. They have their own problems with it. With us, everything depends upon our making up our minds what sort of system of collective security we want and whether

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that system will be only a military one or something a good deal wider. If it is to be a good deal wider, we have to decide in what proportion money is to be spent on the wider aspects as opposed to the military aspects.
We have to take into account conventional weapons, for obvious reasons. We have got to take into account nuclear weapons. We must take into account economic weapons. We have got also to take into account the fact that the world is still divided in a conflict of ideas, and that the battle that is raging, so to speak, in the cold war over most of the earth's surface, and particularly over the territories of the uncommitted nations, is a battle of ideas and a battle of the mind.
In the long run the free world has to win the battle of the mind. I would say in parenthesis to the Foreign Secretary that in the battle of the mind, since we live in a propaganda age—I use the word "propaganda" in the wide and not the narrow sense—we cannot afford to do our propaganda on the cheap.
Having built up N.A.T.O., having built up the Bagdad Pact, and having built up S.E.A.T.O., and since all those organisations are really paying quite a substantial dividend, not only in terms of confidence, not only in terms of the economic growth of the areas concerned, not only in terms of defence, for goodness sake let us consolidate what we have built, and add a few more bricks to those existing structures. I cannot conceive of anything more unwise, or in the long run more futile, or in the longer run still more dangerous, than that we should forsake the substance of what we have built up for the shadow.
Mr. Heath: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  POLICE PENSIONS
  9.56 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. W. F. Deedes): I beg to move,
  That the draft Police Pensions (No. 2) Regulations, 1956, a copy of which was laid before this House on 27th June, be approved.
  Though in appearance rather formidable, these Regulations, apart from the benefits which they confer, have the effect of greatly simplifying the present system. I shall not refer to them in great detail, unless hon. Members want to ask questions about them, but there are one or two things that I should shortly say about them.
  These Regulations do not affect the pensions of retired police officers. They deal with the increases in the awards payable to the widows and children of deceased police officers. They ensure, first, that widows and children whose awards are related to a deceased officer's pay will receive increases equivalent to those provided by the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1956, and on the conditions prescribed by that Act. Secondly, they simplify the flat rate awards payable to the widows and the children. At present, those awards vary in amount according to the date of the officer's death.
  These new Regulations provide for the introduction of a uniform scale which will be payable whatever the date of the officer's death, and the pensioner's personal circumstances, and the new scales, of course, incorporate the increases appropriate under the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1956, and the previous Pensions (Increase) Acts. The House will note, I hope with satisfaction, that it has been possible to extend this uniform scale to widows whose husbands died or retired before 1st September, 1918, and whom it has hitherto been possible to consider only for certain discretionary awards.
  The Regulations give effect to the undertaking which my right hon. and gallant Friend gave in respect of the pre-Oaksey widows. This is a matter which certain hon. Members will recall was discussed at some length in our proceedings on the Pensions (Increase) Bill, and I think it will be found that the results have been satisfactory.

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  The Regulations provide that widows whose husbands died before 5th July, 1948, and who can at present qualify to receive the equivalent of a National Insurance widow's pension only in substitution for the basic pension shall be in future eligible to receive both awards.
  The increases proposed shall have effect from 1st April last, that is to say, they will be retrospective to that date. That is the date from which the increases under the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1956, are payable. With those few observations I commend these Regulations to the House.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I imagine that the Draft Police Pensions (Scotland) (No. 2) Regulations can be taken with these Regulations.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. J. Henderson Stewart): Yes, Sir.
  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. Kenneth Younger: On behalf of my hon. and right hon. Friends, I welcome the Regulations for England and Wales. I am very glad to hear from the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department that they contribute, if only in a small degree, to the simplification of a subject which always defeats me whenever I try to master its details. In addition to applying to police widows the benefits of the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1956, which we would certainly wish to support, the Regulations also deal with some anomalies. I might, in particular, mention the anomaly of the pre-1918 widow, which is now dealt with at long last. We welcome that, and I have to admit that in the past successive Governments have been pressed to deal with it and up to now have refused.
  I believe that the new Regulations have been agreed through the negotiating machinery and are generally welcomed, in particular the uniform scale to be applicable to all widows regardless of the date of their husband's death. There is, however, one point of clarification about which I should like to ask the Joint Under Secretary. It is stated in the explanatory memorandum issued from the Home Office with the Regulations that the new uniform scale proposed is 23s., 31s., or 38s. a week according to rank. That works out roughly at £60, £70 and £80 a year. But, attached to the same explana-
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  tory memorandum, there was a table showing what the effect at present would be if the pensions increase was applied to the flat-rate pension for the various categories.
  Where the police officer died between 1918 and 1948 it appears from the table that under the existing system the rate might work out for widows of inspectors and chief inspectors at £75 whereas, as I have said, the figure under the new uniform scale is only £70. For superintendents and above, the figure is £93, whereas the uniform scale appears to be about £80. In the case of junior ranks—constables and sergeants—there will be no objection, because the figure under the existing system is stated to be £56 as against £60 under the new one. The other two categories, however, appear liable to receive less. The complications are such that I hesitate to pass judgment, but attention has been called to what might be an anomaly and if it can be explained I shall be grateful.
  10.4 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Crouch: I welcome these additional pensions, but I should like to ask one question in view of the fact that I have had to correspond with a Minister on the subject. Do widows receive the increase automatically or have they to apply for the additional pension? I feel that it should be given automatically. One of my constituents has been embarrassed when increases have been made because she had to apply for them. Do widows have to apply to the Home Office?
  10.5 p.m.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: I, too, welcome the Regulations. I do not intend to go into any of the details to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) has referred, but I should like to make a few observations. These Regulations are too little and too late. They are insufficient for their purpose. Too little, because they do not take sufficient account of inflation. The negotiations which preceded them were spread over a considerable period, and they do not take sufficient account of the high cost of living which the widows and children have to endure today. They are not only too little, but they are also too late. They are inadequate for their purpose and unjust to the dependants of the members of the police

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  force who have to cope with the present high cost of living.
  I do not want to delay the House at this late hour, but I cannot let this occasion pass without lodging my protest against the inadequacy of these Regulations. As far back as Friday, 19th March, 1954, in private Members' time, I sought to raise this matter. Indeed, I had on the Order Paper a Private Member's Motion in the following terms:
  "To call attention to the need to make the Police Forces of Britain more attractive as careers for their members and by this means to bring the police forces up to date and thus put them in a position to deal with crime."
  It is obvious that one way of making the police forces more attractive as a career would be to take care of the widows and other dependants of their members. It is obvious that suitable applicants will not join the police forces unless they are satisfied that their widows and other dependants will be properly treated.
  That was two and one-third years ago, and it is only now, in July, 1956, that these Regulations are brought forward as a belated means of making better provision for these people. In reply to a Question of mine on 26th March, 1954, relating to Scotland, the Secretary of State for Scotland told me that the Scottish police forces were under the authorised strength for both men and women. It is obvious that they cannot be brought up to their authorised strength unless proper provision is made for their dependants, and that is what these Regulations are trying to do. In reply to that Question, the Secretary of State said:
  "Steps have … been taken by means of a publicity campaign to bring the claims and advantages of the service to the notice of likely recruits."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March, 1954; Vol. 525, c. 153.]
  My submission is that publicity is not enough. There must be, in addition, adequate provision for the widows and dependants. These provisions should have been made years ago and it is late to make them tonight. I shall not oppose these Regulations because they are a step, even though a short and inadequate step, in the right direction. However, this step should have been taken years ago. It is a disgrace that the services of the police were not recognised earlier than tonight.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: These Regulations are made subject to an Act passed in 1956, so that the point does not arise.
  Mr. Hughes: I have said all I wanted to say, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I thank you for letting me get to the end of my observations.
  10.9 p.m.
  Miss Margaret Herbison: I welcome these Regulations and although it is true, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) has said, that these pensions are inadequate, just as most pensions in the country today are inadequate, at least I am sure that the increases outlined in the Regulations will be welcomed by the police force throughout Scotland.
  Time and time again in the House we have raised the subject of the position of the pre-1918 widows—the pre-Oaksey widows, as they have been called—and time and again it has seemed that nothing could possibly be done for them. It is excellent that in these Regulations it has been made possible for the first time to have uniform scales for the widows of police no matter in which year their husbands died. For that reason, I welcome the Regulations.
  I also feel that, now that justice has been done, it will be heartening to the police in Scotland and will help future recruitment. Whenever Governments attempt to do justice to a group of people, it leads to good relations and helps recruitment. For this reason also, I welcome the Regulations.
  I hope that the Joint Under-Secretary of State will be able to answer points raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger), because they apply equally to Scotland.
  10.11 p.m.
  Mr. Deedes: Perhaps I might reply briefly to the questions which have been raised during our short discussion. First, I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North (Mr. Crouch) that there will automatically be a review now of all the awards already in payment and that the widows will not have to act on their own behalf in this respect.

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  As to the point raised by the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger), to which the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) has referred, there may be a slight statistical misapprehension. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the three annual rates as being £60, £70 and £80 respectively. As I understand, they are, in fact, £59, £78 and £98 annually, which, the right hon. Gentleman will see, rather disposes of the discrepancy which it was thought existed.
  I would add that the Regulations provide for the introduction of a uniform scale. That being so, different rates on the new scale cannot be strictly compared with different rates on the old ones. To have maintained the old differentials exactly would have been to perpetuate the anomalies which the new scale seeks to remove. I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that that, taken in conjunction
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  with the figures, provides a satisfactory answer.
  The remarks of the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector' Hughes) hardly do justice to what the regulations achieve, nor to the new widows' scheme introduced in April, which provides greatly enhanced awards for the widows and children of serving officers. It is always possible to say that such a thing as this might have been done earlier, but it is also fair to say that it might have been much less generous.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Draft Police Pensions (No. 2) Regulations, 1956, a copy of which was laid before this House on 27th June, be approved.
  Draft Police Pensions (Scotland) (No. 2) Regulations, 1956 [copy laid before the House on 28th June], approved.—[Mr. Henderson Stewart.]

ARMED FORCES (RECRUITING)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. R. Thompson.]
10.14 p.m.
Mr. George Wigg: When I sought the Adjournment debate in order to discuss recruiting for the Regular Forces, I had no idea that I should be fortunate enough to take an Adjournment on the same day as a debate on foreign policy.
I certainly did not think that my Adjournment debate would be a curtain raiser to a defence debate which, I understand, is to be held next week, when the Labour Party will be putting forward a policy from which I violently dissent. The facts are, however, that we have had today a debate which outlines a defence bill which the country has to meet. The view of my right hon. and hon. Friends is that the bill can be met by abolishing National Service in 1958 and recruiting about 200,000 Regulars for the Army. I shall not go into details, but I want to say categorically that I dissent from that policy.
It is four years—May, 1952—since, in an Adjournment debate, I pointed out the burden which National Service imposed on the young men of this country. I ventured the opinion that it would not be possible indefinitely for Britain to subscribe to a Commonwealth policy in which our young men did two years' National Service and the young Canadian nothing. Likewise, I expressed the view that I did not believe that N.A.T.O. would remain viable if the burdens of cost and the burdens of our young men were much greater than those of the other members of that organisation.
The purpose of my speech tonight springs from the fact that on 1st April the Government introduced a new pay code. It was a very bold and courageous step, a step which I supported, for the idea behind it was to spend about £67 million in the hope that internal and external recruiting would be so stimulated as to make possible the abolition of National Service after some years. Of course, only three months have passed and that is little enough time to form any hard and fast judgment. However, we
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have some information—and I think sufficient information—to form a tentative judgment.
The fact has to be faced that the improvement in recruiting—both prolongations and men coming into the Army from civilian life—is nothing like enough even to dream of getting rid of National Service. We have some figures which give us an idea of what would happen to the Army if National Service were abolished in 1958 and by 1960 the last National Service man had gone. Of about 89,000 young men who are serving on the three-year engagement, which was introduced in November, 1951, only 51 per cent. are prolonging their service.
That means that if National Service goes by 1961 we will probably have lost all of the three-year men but 5 per cent., and that the manpower ceiling, which, it was stated in the Defence White Paper, was expected to be 192,000 on 1st April, 1957. will have shrunk by 84,000 to about 108,000. I am not surprised, although disappointed, that there has not been an increase in prolongations of that category. The fact that there has been no improvement establishes beyond any shadow of a doubt that the three-year engagement is not a true Regular engagement in the sense that the pre-war Regular Army understood that term.
The three-year engagement is an extended National Service engagement. It is tied up with National Service and the option presented to a young man, when the time for his National Service comes along, is whether he will be paid at 4s. 6d. per day for the first 18 months and 7s. 6d. a day for the last six months, or whether he will take 9s. a day and do three years' service. Thirty thousand men a year have accepted 9s. a day and the three-year engagement. It is on that issue that we have a complaint against the Government, for great hopes were anchored to these new rates of pay. We know that it has not completely come off.
That strikes me as an astonishing fact. The last adjustment in March, 1954, amounted only to £16 million and this time it is £67 million—four times as much; yet it has not done the trick. One cannot be sure about it, but I believe that when young men are given the straight choice between 4s. 6d. a day and 9s. a day many will opt for the 9s. and

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the three-year engagement, but as soon as the Prime Minister goes to Norwich and Bradford and hints that National Service may be cut or terminated, and that is picked up by various hon. Members not only upon that side of the House but upon this, and some influential organs of the Press repeat it, the problem facing the young National Service man then is not a choice merely between 4s. 6d. and 9s. but between 9s. and three years in the Army and £10 or £12 a week and staying in civilian life.
I therefore beg the Secretary of State, the Minister of Defence and even the Prime Minister himself, whatever the Government's policy is to be, to tell the country, and particularly the young men who are facing their National Service, what the choice will be. If the Secretary of State for War cannot do it tonight, we must be told in the defence debate next week. In other words, the Government have spent £67 million on an incentive, and to that extent they put their foot upon the accelerator. But, at the same time, by spreading guesses about the duration and continuance of National Service, they put their foot on the brake. It is, therefore, clear that the lack of results in the first three months of the new pay code—which will be catastrophic if it continues—is, in large measure, the direct consequence of uncertainty which has been spread by Government statements.
There is not much to choose now between Government and Opposition, for the Opposition have said that they will get rid of National Service in 1958. Of course, they will do nothing of the kind. It merely means that they do not yet appreciate the facts. That is one reason why we are having this debate tonight. I hope that the Secretary of State will join forces with me in this matter in presenting the facts about our manpower position so that an informed public opinion can be built up.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: My hon. Friend has now become an inverted conscientious objector. He is now against the abolition of conscription.
Mr. Wigg: I have only a quarter of an hour in which to present my case. Next week I shall be pleased to cross swords with my hon. Friend. I always respect
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his views, and I hope that he will respect mine and allow me to make my speech without further interruption.
We now know the amount of the manpower bill and how it is to be met. When National Service ceases we shall have 192,000 Regulars, less 84,000 men on the three-year engagement who will have left the Army by 1961, which will give us a Regular Army of about 108,000. But there is another disappointing result which will further reduce this figure. In 1952, the right hon. Gentleman wisely introduced a long-term engagement of twenty-two years and gave young men the statutory right, after giving six months' notice, to leave the Army in three-year cycles—at intervals of three, six, nine years, and so on.
I thought that the number of young men who would stay on would be about 60 or 70 per cent., but, as I understand, only 12 per cent. have decided to stay in. This is really very disturbing, because those of us who know the Army know that for a private soldier to go through all the channels of communication from company sergeant major up to commanding officer in order to give six months' notice is a formidable business. One would have thought that the powers of inertia would have acted as a restraining influence. But a 12 per cent. continuance among the long-service men is a fact, and it seems to me that if the proposals to abolish National Service in 1958 are put into operation the country will be faced with a Regular Army whose strength is not much more than 100,000 men.
Let me do the sum in another way. Many of my right hon. and hon. Friends often argue that before the war we had a Regular Army with an annual recruitment figure of about 27,000. This gave us an Army of between 180,000 and 190,000 and they go on to argue that we ought to be able to do as well today. But what my hon. Friends forget is that considerable numbers of those recruited before the war were recruited from two depressed industries, the mines and agriculture, and now, of course, they are no longer depressed industries. Furthermore, men working in agriculture and mining are exempt from National Service. Looking at the pre-war figures, and making allowances for that change, I suggest that we could not expect to get

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more than 20,000 from that source. If 20,000 are recruited on a six-year engagement, that would give us a figure of only 120,000.
Let us look at it from a third angle. According to the Defence White Paper, the Government anticipate, in the current year, a recruiting figure of 42,000 for the Army. At present, there are 89,000 three-year men, which means that approximately 30,000 men a year undertake a three-year engagement. Abolish that engagement, and the recruiting figure is 12,000. Multiply that by six years and we get an estimate of 72,000, which is a very pessimistic figure indeed. Look at it as one may, we are driven to the irresistible conclusion, first, on the recruiting figures and, secondly, on the timetable, that if we abolish National Service in 1958 and the last National Service man is out in 1960 and the last three-year engagement man is out in 1961, we have then to spend at least six years building up a Regular force to its maximum. This brings us to 1967 and a Regular ceiling of 120,000 men.
Let us look at that proposition again. This is 1956. Supposing that the Secretary of State for War said tonight that the Government had examined the figures and were proposing to abolish the three-year engagement, and give further pay increases and extra bounties, and supposing that there was an overwhelming response, it would take six years from now to do the trick. However we look at it, my right hon. and hon. Friends have to face that in the most favourable circumstances there is a gap from 1958 to 1962, and then the target will not exceed 120,000.
We must not run away from the fact that this is a black picture. It is certainly a costly picture and in defence terms it does not give the country the results it needs. I do not propose to harp on this tonight, but I have held the view that the three-year engagement, if it failed, would ultimately present a very difficult problem. As I have indicated, I wholeheartedly support the policy, instituted by the Government, of sharpening the differential and giving more pay and improving conditions. That, I think, is the way to tackle the problem. But when increases of pay do not do the
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trick, and we are still left with the problem of the three years. and the certainty that if there is a popular clamour—and a not very informed clamour, may I say—to get rid of National Service, come what may—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Hear, hear.
Mr. Wigg: My hon. Friend says, "Hear, hear". That is the difference between us. I respect his view. He does not want any defence. He does not mind an Army of 72,000 because. so far as he is concerned, it would be 72,000 too many. He holds that view and I hold mine, but I take it that the majority of hon. Members, and the people of this country, want an adequate defence force within our capacity to pay, and without breaking our backs economically.
Mr. Hughes: Impossible.
Mr. Wigg: As I have said many times before, I do not believe that a solution to this problem can be found on party lines. If either party seeks to make political capital out of this, in the long run the country will certainly be the losers. I have, therefore, pleaded over the last four years, and I plead again tonight, that the Government will come forward and say definitely what their manpower proposals are and how a solution to the problem should be sought. Having said that, they should seek the maximum amount of good will from both sides of the House to find a solution of what is an overwhelming and most difficult national problem.
10.30 p.m.
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Antony Head): The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) has raised a complicated and, at the moment, somewhat controversial subject, and I have 14 minutes in which to attempt to give him some elucidation.
The hon. Gentleman referred to internal and external recruiting in the three Services. I think he would agree that he concentrated his remarks to a very large extent on the Army. I hope that the other two Services will not think me discourteous if I follow the hon. Gentleman to some extent, although I have all the information about them. It is true that the main user and the main justification for National Service at present is the Army.

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At the outset, let me establish the currency in which I shall talk about this subject. One can talk about strengths in terms of all ranks, male other ranks, or male other ranks, women and boys. The best currency is to talk in terms of male other ranks. The officers can be taken as roughly 10 per cent. of the total of the strengths, which can be referred to in many different terms when discussing the subject of manpower.
I do not intend, in the limited time at my disposal, to go into the history of this subject, but I do not think that any remarks are relevant unless we recall the background. The broad history is that from 1945 up to the pay rises of 1950 was a period of difficulty. It was hoped that the pay rises of 1950 would put up recruiting, and enable the Army, at any rate, to retain long-service engagements. That was no so. Although recruiting went up it did not go up sufficiently. To meet our commitments we were forced to introduce the short-service engagement. It was impossible to have a pay rise in 1951, and it was always our plan that when the money was forthcoming for the next pay rise—they come at intervals of about five or six years—we should put the emphasis upon long service. That was what we did.
The thing that matters today, and is the most relevant side of the problem, is the rate of prolongation and the number of men who are recruiting on the new six to nine-year engagement. In the Navy, 35 per cent. were seven-year men up to the time of the pay rise. Only 6 per cent. of the seven-year men were prolonging, whereas the Navy's optimum requirement is 50 per cent. In the Army, the 22–23–year men showed only 7½ per cent. of prolongations, whereas the ideal—although not the target—is 33 per cent. In the Royal Air Force, only 1 per cent. of the three-year men and 3 per cent. of the four-year men were prolonging; and 55 per cent. of the ground tradesmen and specialists were National Service men, or men on three or four-year short service engagements.
The next thing that occurred was the pay increases, which had the object of increasing the long-service element, and of obtaining more recruits for long service engagements. It is early to say, as the
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hon. Gentleman pointed out, what the results will be, but certain things are already apparent.
The first is that the total number of recruits has increased. The figures for the Navy for April/May, 1956, are 1,499 as against 1,246 for the corresponding period of last year. That is nothing spectacular. The figure for the Army is 7,108 as against 5,597; and for the R.A.F. 3,755 as against 3,086. That, again, is not spectacular, but it is satisfactory, if it holds.
Nobody, at this stage, can forecast whether that gradual climb will hold, whether it will level out, or, as was the case in 1950, will sink. Apart from the actual numbers who are coming in on recruiting both for the long-term and the short-term, the prolongations have been encouraging. The Navy's prolongations have shown a real trend upwards, well in excess of that which obtained before these pay rises were made.
In the Army, the monthly man years gained in 1955 were, on the average, 5,350. The average for April and May, 1956, was 27,250—five times as much. It is admitted that we are eating into something that may not continue, because we are eating up the pool there, but there has been a very marked increase in prolongations. In the Air Force, prolongations have taken a turn for the better; and of the 6,000 due out, in April and May 900 have prolonged, which is, again, a definite improvement on what has happened before.
This is of interest and relevant; but what I think the hon. Gentleman was getting at, and in a way was his main purpose in raising the question, was its relevance to National Service. It is not my job and, indeed, it could not be my job on this occasion—to say anything about the Government's policy on National Service. That is a matter of high policy which will no doubt be discussed in the House later.
However, I can give certain factual information which I think is extremely relevant to the question of National Service, which, I know, is of burning interest to a number of hon. Members. I can give this information best, and, I think, most clearly, if I use the Army as a guinea pig. To do it for all three Services would be extremely diffuse and

173
highly complicated. The deductions which hon. Members draw from the factual information I give are purely their own; but this information I can give. I am speaking in terms of male all ranks, excluding officers and women and boys.
The strength of the Army today is 360,000. As hon. Gentlemen who follow the subject know, we are in the process of a planned run-down. In April, 1957, our strength will be 335,000. By April, 1958, our planned run-down will bring us to 310,000. Let as assume for the purposes of this purely factual examination that National Service were to be abolished, as certain hon. Gentlemen have advocated, in April, 1958. Let us then trace what happens on, as far as possible, a purely factual basis. We will have to make certain assumptions, but I am trying to be factual.
The strength in April, 1958, will be 310,000. By April, 1960, two years later, we shall have lost—and this is factual—150,000 National Service men. They will have completed their time and gone out. I do not think anybody can argue with that. That means that in April, 1960, there will remain 160,000 men in the Army. In addition, by April, 1961, we shall have lost the three-year men, less those three-year men who prolong. Making an allowance of 10 per cent.—any hon. Member can argue whether that is too much, but I think those who have studied the subject will say that it is a fair allowance—that means that we shall lose another 80,000 men, because their total is about 90,000.
Therefore, by April, 1961, three years after abolishing National Service, we should have in the Army 80,000 men: but that is without allowing for Regular recruitment between now and 1961, so we have about five years' worth of Regular recruitment to allow for against that 80,000 to which we should have run down. We have to allow for Regular recruitment of the six- and nine-year men, plus prolongations within the Army, which extends the numbers; less wastage of those who have left. Here we come to a speculative matter, and I admit it; but if we take it at the kind of trend which it looks as if it might follow—which I do not think is wildly optimistic or pessimistic, but just a guess—we might allow for a 40,000 or 50,000 increase by Regular
174
recruitment and prolongations. That would give us a total in the Army in 1961 of between 120,000 and 130,000.
Hon. Gentlemen are apt to tie a Minister to his words, and to quote him, even a long time hence. I do not want hon. Gentlemen to misunderstand: I am trying to make a reasonable appreciation of the problem. I think that unless there is a spectacular success in recruiting, or unless recruiting is a spectacular flop, that figure is a fair estimate. I am not saying it is right: it is a guess that there will be between 120,000 and 130,000 in the Army in 1961, that is, three years, after abolishing National Service.
A responsible Government, having to decide upon such a course in 1958, must consider these estimates. Hon. Gentlemen who have to study defence and all these matters must consider them, too. We have to consider, with the tail, the teeth and the commitments, whether or not we could run the Army with 120,000 or 130,000. I do not wish to dictate to hon. Gentlemen. I can only say that if I, as Secretary of State for War, had to run the Army, with its tail, its teeth and our commitments, with 120,000 or 130,000, I should say, "It cannot possibly be done." I do not know whether he would, but I think the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dudley would say that it could not be done.
Although we may say that 120,000 or 130,000 is too small a number, it must be borne in mind that we do not complete the recruiting cycle until 1965. In 1956 we start a nine-year engagement and a six-year engagement, and we do not get the best out of it until the first nine-year man to join is going out. That will be in 1965; so the tank will not be full until 1965. The 1961 figure will, I hope, be considerably exceeded by the end of 1965. That is so speculative, relating to a time ten years ahead, that I shall not give a figure; but I hope and believe that it will be considerably in excess of the 1961 figure.
What I am trying to do is to demonstrate in reply to the hon. Gentleman, that if we abolished National Service in 1958, we should go through a trough: the number falls and then climbs again, and its peak is in 1965. Nobody can responsibly think for a moment that we can completely abolish National Service, when there is that trough,

175
through the loss of National Service and the three-year men, before the six-year and nine-year men have filled the tank. It is impracticable.
Mr. Emrys Hughes Mr. Emrys Hughes rose—
Mr. Head: I cannot give way. I have only a minute, and I am in rather a hurry.
There are feelings on that side of the House, and there may be on this side too, that the War Office, or the generals, or even I, like National Service. We have tried to analyse why it is difficult to get Regulars in the Army; the healthiest Army would be an all-Regular Army. One of the main causes of men leaving the Army is the rush of National
176
Service men into and out of it; 200,000—half the Army—have been National Service men. We should be happier if we had an all-Regular Army. The last thing we want to do is to hang on to National Service, and have a lot of men: we would far rather have fewer men, and an all-Regular Army.
I have tried to point out as factually and objectively as I can, how the sudden abolition of National Service, in the circumstances in which we are today, seems to me wildly impracticable.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at sixteen minutes to Eleven o'clock.

PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Married Women (Contributions)
  Married Women (Contributions)
  Retirement Pensions (Supplementation)
  Retirement Pensions (Supplementation)
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Civil Aircraft
  Civil Aircraft
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Chemists, Dagenham (Emergency Prescriptions)
  Chemists, Dagenham (Emergency Prescriptions)
  Disabled Ex-Service Men (Motor Cars)
  Disabled Ex-Service Men (Motor Cars)
  Water Supplies (Fluoridisation)
  Water Supplies (Fluoridisation)
HOSPITALS
  Beds, Ilford and Barking
  Beds, Ilford and Barking
  Bristol (Endowment Funds)
  Bristol (Endowment Funds)
  Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Damage)
  Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Damage)
CHURCH COMMISSIONERS
  Properties, Croydon (Tenancy)
  Properties, Croydon (Tenancy)
  WORLD ECONOMIC SURVEY, GENEVA
  WORLD ECONOMIC SURVEY, GENEVA
  U.N. DISARMAMENT COMMISSION (HYDROGEN BOMB TESTS)
  U.N. DISARMAMENT COMMISSION (HYDROGEN BOMB TESTS)
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  View Indicator, Primrose Hill
  View Indicator, Primrose Hill
NIGERIA
  Dr. Azikiwe
  Dr. Azikiwe
SOMALI PROTECTORATE
  Tribal Police
  Tribal Police
GOLD COAST
  Independence
  Independence
EDUCATION
  Royal Hospital School, Holbrook (Grant)
  Royal Hospital School, Holbrook (Grant)
  Evening Class Fees (London County Council)
  Evening Class Fees (London County Council)
MUSEUMS AND ART GALLERIES
  The Lane Bequest
  The Lane Bequest
SHIPBUILDING
  Steel Supplies
  Steel Supplies
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Calls (Increase)
  Calls (Increase)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Trade Refuse (Removal)
  Trade Refuse (Removal)
  Rate Payments (Electricity)
  Rate Payments (Electricity)
SCOTLAND
  Local Authority Houses (Interest Cost)
  Local Authority Houses (Interest Cost)
  Sea Trout and Salmon (Catches)
  Sea Trout and Salmon (Catches)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Agricultural Machinery Parts (Standardisation)
  Agricultural Machinery Parts (Standardisation)
  Egg Scheme Inquiry (Commissioner)
  Egg Scheme Inquiry (Commissioner)
FUEL AND POWER
  Oil Pipelines (Wayleave Rights)
  Oil Pipelines (Wayleave Rights)
  Concessionary Coal
  Concessionary Coal
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Monopolies Commission (Electrical Machinery Report)
  Monopolies Commission (Electrical Machinery Report)
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  REDUNDANCY IN MOTOR CAR INDUSTRY
  2.35 p.m.
  LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government how many employees who have been declared redundant by the Standard Motor Company and the British Motor Corporation have found, or been offered alternative employment.]
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTER OF DEFENCE (THE EARL OF GOSFORD): My Lords, about 8,300 workers have been discharged by the Standard Motor Company and the British Motor Corporation and of these 2,850 were registered as unemployed on July 16. The balance represents those who have been placed in or have found alternative work, or for various reasons have not sought the help of the employment exchange service.
  LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his Answer. I think the figures are encouraging, but I should like to ask him whether he could tell me the proportion of men who have found jobs
  2
  on their own and the proportion who have been placed by the Ministry of Labour.
  THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I can give the noble Lord only approximate figures. Of the 5,450 who were not registered as unemployed on July 16 approximately 1,000 have been found appointments by the Ministry of Labour. The others have not come forward, either because they have found employment on their own or because they do not wish further employment.
  LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his answer.
  LORD BARNBY: My Lords, arising out of that reply and out of the information the noble Earl gave your Lordships last week:, and in view of the extremely serious and novel situation that is developing in the country, of a strike arising from the effects of the laying-off of hands as the result of shrinking demand for a product, would it not be possible for the noble Earl to say what proportion of those who have been, or are reputed to be, laid off in this present dispute were actually in the industry six months ago? I would remind your Lordships that the figures quoted were that over 100,000 had gone into the automotive industry and 35,000 hands had come out of the cotton textile industry. No action has been taken on the loss from the cotton textile industry, but apparently the Government are paying great attention to the dismissals from the automotive industry.
  THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I am afraid that I am unable to answer the noble Lord's question about the last six months. From what I can remember

  3
  of the Question I answered last week, out of 137,500 employees who were taken on in the engineering industry as a whole from December 31, 1954, to June 30, 1956, approximately 40,000 were taken on by the automotive industry. As I have already stated, the number of men who have been put off work by the automotive industry is 8,300.

  DR. AZIKIWE
  LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows.
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on the threatened resignation of Dr. Nnamdi Azikiwe, Premier of the Eastern Region of Nigeria, and his allegation that his resignation is due to the fact that he is not prepared to take dictation from the Governor or the Secretary of State.]
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD LLOYD): My Lords, my right honourable friend will be making a full statement to-morrow about this matter in another place and I shall make a similar statement in your Lordships' House.

  DISMISSAL OF COMMISSIONER FOR GOLD COAST
  LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
  [The Question was as follows:
  To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on the dismissal of Mr. T. M. Kodwo Mercer from his post as Commissioner for the Gold Coast in London.]
  LORD LLOYD: My Lords, under the present Constitution of the Gold Coast, the appointment of the Commissioner in London is a matter which falls completely within the jurisdiction of the Gold Coast Government. Your Lordships will appreciate, I am sure, that it would therefore be inappropriate for Her
  4
  Majesty's Government to make any statement on the dismissal of Mr. Mercer.
  LORD OGMORE: My Lords, whilst thanking the noble Lord for a reply, may I ask him whether it is not a fact that external affairs are a matter reserved to the Governor and therefore a matter on which Her Majesty's Government have full say? Secondly, is it not an extraordinary action on the part of whoever was responsible to dismiss the Commissioner here almost at a moment's notice? And thirdly, would the noble Lord like to join with me in thanking Mr. and Mrs. Mercer for the efficient and courteous way in which they have carried out their duties whilst they have been in London?
  LORD LLOYD: My Lords, all of us who are his personal friends—I should like to count myself as one—and who know the work that Mr. Mercer has done whilst he has been here, are grateful for that and we shall miss him very much. As regards the rest of the noble Lord's Question, I must refer him to Section 53 (4) of the Gold Coast Constitution, which reads:
  "Appointments, promotions and transfers to a special overseas post and dismissals from such a post shall be made or ordered by the Governor acting on the advice of the Prime Minister."
  The noble Lord will see, therefore, that, whatever may be his view about foreign affairs, this matter is clearly governed by the Gold Coast Constitution. In these circumstances, I do not think it would be proper for me to make any further comment on what the noble Lord has said.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
  Moved, That leave be given for the Marquess of Reading to advance his motion for an Humble Address in regard to the International Organisations (Immunities and Privileges of the International Tin Council) Order, 1956 (now standing for Monday the 30th instant to Wednesday next.
  On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

  SALE OF FOOD (WEIGHTS AND MEASURES: BACON AND HAM) REGULATIONS, 1956
  2.40 p.m.
  THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, with the recent development of self-service stores and the increase in the pre-packing of foodstuffs of various kinds, traders have found that the requirements of Section 4 of the Sale of Food (Weights and Measures) Act, 1926, that bacon and ham must be pre-packed in certain specified weights only, hinders the development of trade in these commodities, because it is difficult as well as unhygienic to cut joints and whole rashers exactly in the prescribed amounts. Following various extended consultations with trading organisations, local authorities and others, the Board of Trade are satisfied that there is a good case for amending the law so as to make it more flexible. The broad purpose of the regulations, therefore, is to remove the inflexibility of the law in regard to the sale in specified quantities only, whilst still maintaining the other protections given to the consumer. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the Draft Sale of Food (Weights and Measures: Bacon and Ham) Regulations, 1956, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(Lord Mancroft.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION (COMPENSATION TO EM- PLOYEES) (AMENDMENT) REGU- LATIONS, 1956
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, these regulations amend the conditions under which compensation is payable under the Transport Act of 1953. Compensation is payable for loss of employment either by way of re-settlement payment or on a long-term basis. In both cases, however, compensation is payable only after a certain number of years' employment under the Commission. It has now been found that when the Commission forms a company, although it will hold all the shares of the company, employment under that company does not count towards qualifying for compensation.
  6
  It is I think clear that these cases should be brought in, and that is particularly so now that the Commission is forming certain additional companies.
  Now all these Regulations do is retrospectively to amend the 1953 Regulations so that employment under a wholly-owned subsidiary company by the Commission counts towards compensation under the 1953 Act where that applies. I would add only that all the major unions concerned have expressed their satisfaction with these proposals.
  Moved, That the Draft British Transport Commission (Compensation to Employees) (Amendment) Regulations, 1956, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved. —(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  ROAD HAULAGE DISPOSAL BOARD (ABOLITION) ORDER, 1956
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, the Road Haulage Disposal Board was set up under the 1953 Act. The British Transport Commission had to consult with the Board, and the Board had to approve the sale of transport units. This process of sale is now virtually at an end, except for two large companies whose sale will not in arty case require the assistance of the Board. Accordingly, the Board will be abolished under this regulation on August 28. In the remaining period the Board will complete the sale which is now in progress; will make a final Report will audit the vehicles remaining for sale, and will make recommendations to the Minister in regard to property other than vehicles. I think it desirable at this stage to thank Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve arid his colleagues for carrying through a difficult task with ability and expedition, and establishing a great sense of fairness in all those who have come in contact with him. I beg to move that this Order be approved.
  Moved, That the Draft Road Haulage Disposal Board (Abolition) Order, 1956, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved. —(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, as one who had something to do with the debates upon the Road Haulage Disposal Bill, I should like to

  7
  associate myself and noble Lords on this side of the House with the remarks that have just fallen from the lips of the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. The Road Haulage Disposal Board did a good job of work, and they did it very fairly. Sometimes, I thought, they did it with embarrassing fairness—at least, embarrassing to Her Majesty's Government, who did not always take the splendid advice they offered. Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve is to be congratulated on the outstanding public service which he rendered in a difficult situation. I can only hope that he does not have to render a similar one in the rest of his career. We on this side of the House now part with road haulage disposal with a word of thanks to those who had so much to do with it.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  POLICE PENSIONS (No. 2) REGULATIONS, 1956
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, the principal object of these somewhat formidable-looking Regulations is to provide increases in the awards to the widows and children of deceased police officers. This is done in three ways. The Regulations ensure that widows and children whose awards are related to the deceased officer's pay will qualify for increases equivalent to those provided in the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1956. They introduce a new uniform scale for widows' and children's flat rate awards. This scale incorporates the increases provided under the Pensions (Increase) Act 1956, and under previous Pensions (Increase) Acts. Finally, they provide that certain discretionary awards which have hitherto been payable in substitution for a basic pension, shall in future be payable in addition to the basic award. I commend the Regulations to your Lordships, as I am sure they will assist a body of pensioners who deserve well of the community. I beg to move that the Regulations be approved.
  Moved, That the Draft Police Pensions (No. 2) Regulations, 1956, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(Lord Mancroft.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  POLICE PENSIONS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) REGULATIONS, 1956
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, these Regulations are of exactly the same substance as those which your Lordships have just approved, except that they apply to Scotland. On behalf of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, I beg to move that the Regulations be approved.
  Moved, That the Draft Police Pensions (Scotland) (No. 2) Regulations, 1956, reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(Lord Mancroft.)
  EARL WINTERTON: My Lords, when I was a Member of another place I took considerable interest in police matters, and I was for a short time assistant Minister at the Home Office. I merely want to say that I am delighted, as I am sure all those who have the welfare of the police at heart are, with these two sets of Regulations, one of which has just been passed by your Lordships and the other of which we are in the process of approving. I only hope that the good work will not end there, because the more one examines this matter the more one is certain that one of the difficulties in getting sufficient police is the conditions under which they work. However, the Government arc to be congratulated on the amelioration they have made in respect of this particular matter and other matters in the last few months and years.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  DEPARTMENT OF SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH BILL [H.L.]
  2.50 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the consideration of the Commons Amendments read.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
  Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered. — (The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  COMMONS AMENDMENTS
  [The references are to Bill (121) as first printed for the House of Commons.]
  Clause 1, page 2, line 6, leave out ("university") and insert ("universities, technical colleges")
  Clause 1, page 2, line 10, at end insert (" and
  (c) take steps to further the practical application of the results of scientific and of industrial research.")
  Clause 1, page 2, line 12, at end insert
  (" and in exercising their functions under this subsection the Research Council shall have regard, consistently with the national interest, to similar or related activities carried on by other persons.")
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research Bill, to which your Lordships gave a Third Reading on April 19 last, and which has now been considered in another place, has returned to us with three Amendments, all of which I hope and think are entirely non-controversial and are closely allied. I hope, therefore, that the House will agree that I should deal with them all together. They arc, indeed, merely clarifying Amendments, in the sense that their purpose is to specify in detail points which were previously covered only by implication. All of them relate to subsection (3) of Clause 1 of the Bill. The first Amendment secures specific mention of technical colleges in the Bill as places in which the Council may encourage and support scientific research. Actually, as I expect most of your Lordships know, it has always been the intention of the Government that they should be so covered, and the general formula of, "university and other institutions" which found its place in the Bill., would, in fact, I believe, have included them in any case. But in view of the increasingly important part which technical colleges are playing in the nation's scientific life, it seems fitting that they should be mentioned explicitly by the side of the universities. I therefore warmly commend this Amendment to the House.
  The second Amendment adds one further item to the list which is given in subsection (3) of the particular activities in which the Council may engage in accordance with its general duties as defined at the beginning of the subsection. The words of the Amendment relate to what may be called, in general terms, development work. Here, again, it was
  10
  always intended by the Government that such work should be within the ambit of the new Council, as it is indeed within the ambit of the D.S.I.R. to-day. But the task of seeing that the results of research are put into practice is so important that I am sure the House will agree that it is proper to pick it out for special mention in the Bill. That Amendment, too, I think will command general acceptance.
  Finally, I come to the last Amendment. This, as your Lordships will see, is designed to make clear that in the field in which many organisations and individuals are engaged the Research Council may not have to carry on its work in splendid isolation, but can take account of what is being clone elsewhere. I do not mean by that that it is in the Government's mind that this new Council should try to act as a supreme organiser and co-ordinator of the whole scientific and industrial research of the country. That, I am quite certain, would be neither possible, nor, even if it were possible, desirable. What it does mean is that in planning the Department's research programme the Council will have regard to the total picture of the country's research effort. That ought to help to ensure, at any rate, that unnecessary overlapping will be avoided, while it leaves it open—and rightly open, in my view—to the Council, if for some special reason it is desirable to do so, to be able to engage in some particular field of research which is already being conducted elsewhere. I hope that the House will agree that these three Amendments represent improvements in the Bill, and that the House will also agree that it was proper that I should have explained them together. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
  Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  LORD SILKIN: My Lords. I am very happy to agree to both proposals which the noble Marquess has put before the House. I think all three Amendments are an improvement on the Bill, and I certainly think it was appropriate that the noble Marquess should explain them to the House together. He has explained them so clearly that there is little left for me to say. The Amendments represent

  11
  an extension of the functions of the Research Council. My own view is that they go a little beyond mere clarification, but I think they are all the better for that. It would have been a mistake unduly to restrict the functions of the Research Council, or to have left it in any doubt as to whether it had the jurisdiction in any particular capacity. I am not sure whether, as the clause originally stood, functions of the Council would have covered technical colleges, but that is an argument which lawyers might have had if the words were not there. It is quite easy to put them in and to make quite sure that they have that jurisdiction. The same applies to the other two Amendments. I think they do extend the functions of the Research Council, but in a perfectly desirable manner. Therefore, we on this side have great pleasure in supporting these Amendments.
  LORD REA: My Lords, I should like to support the words which have fallen from the noble Lord, Lord Silkin. I think it is commonly accepted that a research matter of this sort is welcomed by all Parties, and throughout the country. It is neither magisterial nor is this Council given any powers which we would grudge it. If it takes further extension of its powers, I think we should be grateful. both to the Council and to the noble Marquess that this extra work, valuable as it is, should be taken on.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  BRITISH CARIBBEAN FEDERATION BILL
  2.56 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD LLOYD: My Lords, the introduction of this measure this afternoon is an event of historic significance in the history of the British Caribbean, for it brings to actual fruition a conception which has been maturing now for over three-quarters of a century. Fronde, the historian, in his book The English in the West Indies records that as long ago as 1870 he had a conversation (to quote his words)
  "with a high colonial official specially connected with the West Indian department, in which the federation of the islands … was spoken of as a measure already determined on".
  12
  But although the idea of a Caribbean Federation existed as long ago as 1870, there were many reasons why it could not become a reality, either then or for many years to come.
  As your Lordships know, the Caribbean islands are remote one from another—it is nearly 1,000 miles from Jamaica to Trinidad, and the inhabitants of the islands, varying from one another, as they do in origin and history, were long accustomed to living and thinking in isolation from their neighbours. Indeed, were it not for the advent of the aeroplane and its recent rapid development for civil puposes, I doubt whether even to-day a Federation of the Caribbean islands would have been possible. On the other hand, if improved communications have supplied the means of federation, certainly the increased standard of education and political sophistication in the Caribbean has also increased the desire for federation amongst its peoples. To-day there is no doubt that they are infinitely more aware of their neighbours and of the need to combine in order to be of some account in a competitive world.
  Here let me emphasise once again the fact that federation has been regarded by successive Secretaries of State as a matter of decision for the people of the Caribbean themselves. In 1922, my noble friend Lord Halifax reported that opinion in the West Indies was against federation, and even in 1932 the Closer Union Congress came to nothing. However, attention was once again focused on the problems of the West Indies and the possible advantages of Federation by the Royal Commission of 1939 under the chairmanship of the late Lord Moyne. And its Report led to the setting up in 1940 of the body known as the Development and Welfare Organisation of the West Indies, The work of this Organisation has probably done more than anything else to bring the people of the British Caribbean together.
  I should like to take this opportunity of paying a tribute to its present Chairman, Sir Stephen Luke, who is known to some of your Lordships, and who has done outstanding work in this field. Since its inception the organisation has been a focus of ever-increasing importance for the pan-Caribbean activities. both social and economic, of the West Indian people; and, of course, the war itself stimulated co-ordination because

  13
  of the necessity of considering a number of problems, such as those of supplies, on a regional, rather than on a territorial, scale.
  Nor indeed is this organisation the only example of regional co-operation in the Caribbean to-day. It has been said. I think rightly, that the first truly pre-federal activity was the development of West Indian cricket, but apart from this we must not forget the happy establishment of that great institution, the University College of the West Indies, where the West Indian leaders of the future are being trained and will in the process have useful experience of working together. Nor should one overlook the extremely valuable activities of such a body as the Regional Economic Committee for the West Indies, British Guiana and British Honduras, which was established by the West Indian Governments themselves, and which has done so much to advise those Governments on economic matters of regional significance and to serve as a means of exchanging information between them.
  Of course, as anybody who knows the Caribbean will be aware, there are a whole lot of other regional bodies, such as the Regional Labour Board and the British Caribbean Air Transport Advisory Council, which were established through the agency of the Comptroller for Development and Welfare in the West Indies, whose functions will in due course be absorbed by the Federal Government. I am sure of one thing: that these examples of co-operation which exist to-day between the West Indian territories are a happy augury for the future of the Federation.
  To resume this brief history, by 1945 Mr. Oliver Stanley, who was then Secretary of State for the Colonies, felt that the time was ripe to address a despatch to West Indian Governors suggesting that federation should be seriously considered and adopted as the aim of policy. Your Lordships will be familiar with the series of conferences, committees, commissions and discussions in the West Indian Legislatures which in the succeeding eleven years have demonstrated with increasing certainty the desires of the West Indies and have brought federation for the Colonies of Barbados, Jamaica, Trinidad, the Leeward and Windward Islands ever closer. In those conferences successive
  14
  Secretaries of State of both political Parties have played their part. I have mentioned the name of Oliver Stanley, but I should like to take this opportunity also of paying tribute to Mr. Creech. Jones who had this Federation very much at heart and who did a great deal during his time as Colonial Secretary to assist its progress. The last step in this process, which culminates in the present Bill, was the London Conference of February, 1956, which was presided over by my right honourable friend and attended by the leading politicians of all the West Indian Colonies concerned.
  This Conference had before it the plan for a British Caribbean Federation which had already been accepted in principle by West Indian Legislatures, and it reached final 'decisions on all major matters affecting federation, with the exception of the questions of the site of the Federal Capital and the establishment of a Customs Union for the Federal Region, matters which it relegated for further inquiry to commissions which have now been appointed. The Conference also established itself as a Standing Federation Committee to meet in the West Indies for the purpose of dealing with all further constitutional and administrative matters prior to, and connected with, the establishment of the Federation. This Committee has already had a successful first meeting at which agreement was reached on a wide range of matters connecting with the setting up of the federal machinery. The London Conference concluded its Report by an unanimous declaration of its earnest wish that the Secretary of State should seek leave to introduce a Bill which would enable the Federation to come into being. That is the Bill which is before your Lordships this afternoon.
  At this point, my Lords, it would. I think, be convenient if I were to say a word upon the effect of the Bill itself. The intention of Clause 1 is to enable Her Majesty to provide by Order in Council for a Federation of Barbados, Jamaica, the Leeward Islands of Antigua, Montserrat and St. Chistopher-Nevis-Anguilla (commonly known as St. Kitts), Trinidad and Tobago, and the Windward Islands of Dominica, Grenada, St. Lucia and St. Vincent, as stipulated in the Schedule to the Bill, and to provide for the accession of other Colonies to the Federation. This clause covers the establishment of a

  15
  Federal Government, a Federal Legislature. a Federal Supreme Court and any other necessary Federal authorities. It further provides that the Order in Council in question must be laid before Parliament in draft for an Affirmative Resoluton in each House. and that it shall be amendable only by Act of Parliament or, in so far as that Order in Council authorises Her Majesty in Council to amend it, by a further Order in Council.
  Clause 2 of the Bill enables jurisdiction to be conferred on the Federal Supreme Court to hear appeals from the Courts of Colonies not included in the Federation, including British Guiana and the Virgin Islands, and enables the West Indian Court of Appeal to be dissolved. The financial arrangements between Her Majesty's Government and the Federal Government are covered in Clause 3 of the Bill, by which the Secretary of State for the Colonies may make grants of amounts not exceeding £1 million towards defraying the cost of establishing the seat of the Federal Government. This represents the sum announced by the Secretary of State at the 1956 Conference and, although account must be taken of the fact that the estimated costs of setting up the Federal capital have risen considerably in the interim, is a sum twice that previously promised at the earlier Conference in 1953. As the cost of establishing Federal headquarters is now estimated at £1,750,000, exclusive of the cost of the site, the sum which may be given by Her Majesty's Government represents a very considerable proportion of the total.
  Clause 3 further provides for budgetary aid to the Federation for the first ten years. As your Lordships are probably aware, several of the territories which will be entering the Federation have been unable to balance their budgets from their own resources, and for many years grants for this purpose have been made to them by Her Majesty's Government. It is necessary to provide for a continuation of this budgetary aid until such time as the Federation itself has been able to solve the financial and economic problems of its members and create the self-sufficiency which all agree is so highly desirable. Clause 4 of the Bill is a formal one. Clause 5 repeals the British Honduras (Court of Appeal) Act of 1881 which is no longer operative and no longer necessary.
  16
  So much for the Bill itself, which, as I have explained, prepares the way for the Order in Council which will set forth the Constitution proposed for the British Caribbean Federation. This Constitution, in accordance with the wishes of the West Indian Governments who will be consulted at every stage, will be on the Australian pattern and will leave considerable residual powers to the Governments of the units. For Colonies which are coming together, each with a long and separate history, this is, I believe, the only possible pattern, and although I admit that some fears have been expressed that this form of Constitution may lead to a weak federal structure, there is no reason why the Federal organism should not grow and develop as we all hope it will.
  The Federation is to have a Council of State, which will be presided over by the Governor-General and, as the principal instrument of policy, it will have this Council of State which will consist of eleven members appointed by the Governor-General, including a Prime Minister, seven members of the Legislature, nominated by the Prime Minister, and three members of the Federal Senate, appointed by the Governor-General on the recommendation of the Prime Minister. The Federal Legislature is to consist of a Senate of nineteen members, appointed by the Governor-General after consultation with the Governors of the member Colonies, and a House of Representatives consisting of forty-five members chosen by direct election in the member Colonies. The Federal Supreme Court will have original jurisdiction in certain limited matters and a more general jurisdiction to hear appeals from the Supreme Courts of the units and from the Supreme Courts of certain other territories. The only reserve legislative power in the hands of the Governor-General will be a discretion in the matter of assenting to Bills or reserving them for Her Majesty's assent. In the executive field he must, in general—
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: May I ask the noble Lord to elucidate one point? In the event that the Governor-General reserves a Bill, will it be submitted for advice to Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies or to the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations?
  LORD LLOYD: I intended to come to that point, but I will answer it now. In the first instance, it would be the Secretary of State for the Colonies. I will deal with the noble Earl's point, and I think he will see the reason for that if he listens a little further to my speech.
  As I was saying, the only reserve power in the hands of the Governor-General will be this discretion in the matter of assenting to Bills; otherwise he has, in general, to act in accordance with the advice of his Council of State. The exceptions to this general rule are in respect of defence, external affairs and the financial stability of the Federation, in so far as may be required to avoid the need for financial assistance from Her Majesty's Government or to prevent the credit of the Federation from being adversely affected. In these three fields there is also special power for Her Majesty to legislate by Order in Council. The Constitution is thus politically very advanced, although in the three fields in which Her Majesty's Government have special responsibility it is appropriate for the Governor-General to have the reserve executive powers to which I have referred. I should add that these arrangements have been agreed with the leaders of the West Indian Colonies themselves.
  The Federal revenue will be derived initially from the profits on the currency issue, and from a mandatory levy on the unit Governments which will be reduced or abolished to the extent that the Federal Government exercises its power to raise revenue by means of Customs and Excise duties. This power, however, is subject to certain limitations.
  Since it is not directly the concern of the Bill this is not really the moment to discuss at length the extremely important question of the economic development of the Caribbean. On the other hand, since the economic development of the West Indies is inevitably closely related to political advance, I feel that I cannot leave the Bill without saying a word about the very real efforts which have been made by Her Majesty's Government towards placing the British Caribbean Colonies or a sound and stable footing.
  I should like to remind your Lordships that since April, 1946, the direct financial assistance given or committed by Her Majesty's Government to the region
  18
  amounts to about £55 million. In addition, valuable indirect assistance had been given to the Caribbean Colonies. First and foremost, the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement safeguards the main crop and industry—which is, of course, sugar—of the area as a whole. We have also agreed with the West Indian Governments detailed schemes to safeguard the banana and citrus industries, which are the other two main agricultural industries. The financial liabilities under these schemes rest very largely upon Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom.
  For the other main West Indian agricultural products, such as cocoa and spices, there are already reasonably remunerative markets. So far as non-agricultural products are concerned, although the West Indies are not as rich in minerals as some other territories their oil and bauxite are making significant contributions to the region's wealth. Whilst a truly prosperous and stable economy is particularly difficult to achieve, in view of the limited natural resources of the West Indies, their geographical position, far from the best markets open to them, and their rapidly increasing population, it will be seen that we have given the British Caribbean very considerable economic support. We have done so, moreover, at a time when our own economic difficulties have been considerable; and I venture to suggest that this fact is clear evidence—if evidence were needed—of cur desire to help the Caribbean territories and the new Federation to achieve, so far as possible, economic stability. Moreover, although federation in itself cannot solve the area's economic problems, it is our hope that it will at any rate materially improve the conditions in which they can be dealt with.
  My Lords, if I have disgressed thus briefly from the main theme of the Bill, I have done so because it is extremely important that economically the West In lies should be able, in due course, to stand on their own feet. Not only is that a desirable end in itself, but it is also desirable in order to facilitate the eventual growth of the Federation into a filly self-governing member of the British Commonwealth. This is an aspiration shared equally by the West Indies and by Her Majesty's Government on their behalf; and in opening the London Conference this year the Secretary of State for the Colonies made it clear that when the

  19
  Federal Government felt ready to assume the responsibilities and obligations involved in full self-government within the Commonwealth, and when it could demonstrate its ability to do so, Her Majesty's Government would give their full and unreserved support to these West Indian ambitions and would be glad to sponsor the Federation for membership of the Commonwealth. Therefore, although the creation of the British Caribbean Federation, which is the main purpose of this Bill, does not immediately confer on the Federation the status of full membership of the Commonwealth, it is an essential step towards that ardently desired goal.
  Your Lordships will have noticed that certain territories within the region are not included in the proposed Federation as listed in the Schedule to the Bill. It is the earnest hope of Her Majesty's Government, and of the leaders in the federating territories, that British Honduras and British Guiana will one day see their way to join the Federation, and it is, in fact, intended that the Federal Constitution shall make it particularly easy for them to do so. For the present, however, these Colonies have not desired to join the Federation, although the Governments of both Colonies are maintaining close contact with recent developments and have sent observers to recent conferences. The British Virgin Islands are another Colony which has expressed a wish to remain outside the Federation but, like British Guiana and British Honduras, they will be enabled to participate in the various regional services which will be co-ordinated by the Federal Government.
  In conclusion, may I say that this Bill received a warm welcome in another place and will, I am sure, receive an equally warm welcome in this House. It is something for which both the main political Parties in this country have worked. I am sure that we all wish the emerging Federation well, and I hope that your Lordships will demonstrate this good will by giving a speedy passage to this Bill. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Lloyd.)
  3.18 p.m.
  LORD OGMORE: My Lords, we on this side welcome this Bill. We regard it as a momentous one, and we agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, that to-day is an historic occasion, not only in the history of the West Indies but also in the history of this country. Our connection with the Caribbean has been one of long standing. It has been part of our history, and many of the most important people, not only in our history but in world history, have at some time or other served in the Caribbean: Christopher Columbus, Nelson, Morgan and many others, have added their contribution, good or bad, to that region. It has been a region where some deep and cruel crimes have been committed; it has been a region where great, distinguished and devoted service has been rendered. It is a region of good and bad, of black and white, and of very little grey; but to-day, as I have said, it is our pleasure to welcome this Bill which confers upon the region of the Caribbean its new status.
  The Labour Party, in its Statement of Policy which was approved by the Annual Conference in 1954, said this:
  "Our aim is a multi-racial Commonwealth in which Britain and the former dependent territories work together as equal partners for the benefit of all. Larger territories will become independent states, smaller territories may form a Federation. For territories which are scattered and too small to stand alone, special arrangements will have to be worked out, in agreement with their people, for association with Britain in the Commonwealth."
  I wish to congratulate all those who have been concerned in this development and, in particular, the people whom the noble Lord has mentioned. I think the long service given to this area and to the solution of this problem by Colonel Oliver Stanley and Mr. Creech Jones is especially in our memory on this day. This Bill in fact, in a way, ensures that the Federation is being born anew into the Commonwealth family.
  What sort of a family is the new baby, as it were, in its present form, being born into? I think I cannot do better than quote the words of Mr. St. Laurent, as reported in The Times on his recent visit to this country for the Prime Ministers' Conference. Mr. St. Laurent said:
  "There are people who sometimes wonder how it is that the representatives of an organisation like our Commonwealth, whose members

  21
  are so widely scattered, whose origins are so diverse, and who have such varied interests and views can meet so frequently in friendly and, I am sure, fruitful conferences."
  The Times report continues:
  "The answer, he said, was quite simple: They were all united in the belief that they could work together towards a greater happiness and prosperity, not only for their own people but for all mankind. He firmly hoped that the discussions would again contribute towards that worthy purpose."
  In welcoming the new Federation into the Commonwealth we feel that it is an association well worth their joining. The Commonwealth is indeed a living, growing and changing organism, and I particularly stress the word "changing". It needs constant attention, thought and care—it needs, in fact, three things, particularly, from us. First, it needs our interest, and this must be demonstrably shown. Secondly, it needs funds from us for development of the various Commonwealth countries; and in this regard I must point out that for the last six years we have made available only £100 million a year to the various colonial territories, and that these territories now have over £1,200 million invested with us, namely, their balances. I must also point out that lately in the Kariba Gorge scheme and the Trinidad oil scheme we have failed to carry out our primary duty of providing their needs for development. Some months ago I asked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether we were helping India with her Five-year scheme, and Pakistan also. So Far we have not had any reply. But we must invest in the Commonwealth, or the Commonwealth as a Commonwealth will disintegrate; and to do this we must save, although I agree that this is difficult in these times of full enjoyment.
  Thirdly, we must assist in their defence, and whilst this applies especially to Australia, New Zealand and so on, it applies also to the new Federation. I should like to ask here, what contribution will the new Federation make? It will be remembered that the West India Regiment, which was a very fine regiment indeed, was disbanded by the War Office. and I am sure in this area quite a number of excellent troops could be obtained. The War Office has always had a sort of myopic view of Colonial troops—a view that is quite unfounded—and it was only in face of their bitterest hostility that we
  22
  have managed to get the Malay Regiment formed and expanded as it has been. I hope that there will be a considerable contribution of troops from the new Federation, not only for their own defence but for the defence of the Commonwealth as a whole.
  I was going to ask what the status of the new Federation will be, but the. noble Lord has to some extent answered that point in his speech. It will be pretty well an independent member of the Commonwealth, though there are certain. reserved subjects. There are three reserved subjects, as I understand it, but even there I take it that the Federal Legislature and the Federation Government will have full authority, although there will be a sort of concurrent authority in Her Majesty's Government here to make regulations or laws by Order in Council. I do not quite know how that is going to work: out. It might be interesting to hear the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor on this aspect. I should have thought it might tend to confusion if there were two, authorities with concurrent powers to make legislation, but possibly it means that Her Majesty's Government will make legislation only in the case of the breakdown of the machinery in the Federation. It strikes me as a rather difficult thing to carry out if concurrent legislation is to be the normal event, instead of a highly exceptional one. Perhaps the noble Lord will deal with that point when he replies.
  I should like to ask whether the Prime Minister of the new Federation will be attending the Prime Ministers' Conferences here. I do not see why not; in fact I hope he will. The Prime Minister of the Central African Federation, Lord Malvern, is always a most acceptable visitor to this country, and has for some time attended the Prime Ministers' Conferences, although the Federation of Central Africa, Rhodesia and Nyasaland, is no more advanced—if as advanced; and in fact it is nothing like as advanced politically—than this new Federation will be. It may be said that his is an exceptional position because he is such a delightful person—that is what Sir Winston Churchill said. But I do not think one can found constitutional practice on the personality of the Prime Minister for the time being. I should have thought that the position of the

  23
  Federation of the British Caribbean, as I presume it will be called, will be equal to that of Canada and Australia and South Africa, for instance, when the first Prime Ministers' Conferences were held, and, in fact when all the Prime Ministers' Conferences were held up to, say, 1932. I should have thought that under this Bill they had as much legislative power as any of those countries had up to 1932. And as the Prime Ministers of these countries did come here to attend Prime Ministers' Conferences, I see no reason why the Prime Minister of the British Caribbean Federation should not do so. I hope he will, because there is a great fund of loyalty to the Queen in the Caribbean areas, a great fund of loyalty to the British connection; and anything we can do to foster that feeling we should do.
  I was also going to ask whether the Commonwealth Relations Office should take over from the Colonial Office. I understand, from a passing remark of the noble Lord—it was no more; he did not expand it—that it is going to remain with the Colonial Office. I am rather sorry about that. I hoped that the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations would have been receiving the British Caribbean Federation as one of his "customers" very soon. I think that when a country or Federation gets to the stage that the British Caribbean Federation will reach under this Bill it is obviously time for its smooth transition from the Colonial Office to the Commonwealth Relations Office. So I hope that the Government will think again and will transfer responsibility for this territory from the Colonial Office to the Commonwealth Relations Office. May I also once more point out the fact that the Central African Federation is the responsibility of the noble Earl, the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations?
  LORD LLOYD: With great respect to the noble Lord, it is the responsibility of both my right honourable friend and the noble Earl.
  LORD OGMORE: That, of course, makes my case even stronger, because the same sort of responsibilities that the Colonial Office have for Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia are not present at all
  24
  in the case of the British Caribbean Federation. So if it is possible for some part of the responsibility to be vested in the Commonwealth Relations Office in the case of the Central African Federation then a fortiori I think it should be vested in the case of the Caribbean.
  I should like to be assured by the noble Lord that great care will be taken over the first appointments from this country. I do not know whether the first appointment of Governor-General will be made on the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government here. If so, I think that as it is an entirely new appointment, and as he will have very little to go on, the man for the post should be very carefully chosen. I should like to suggest also that great care must be taken in the choice of High Commissioners—if there are to be High Commissioners. I had assumed that the Commonwealth Relations Office were going to take over. If they are not, will there not be a High Commissioner in the capital who will represent the United Kingdom? Surely, if there is to be a High Commissioner ought it not to be the Queen, on the recommendation of the noble Earl the Secretary of State, who appoints him? Should it not be the noble Earl who looks for the man for this post? It is surely odd to have a High Commissioner appointed by and responsible to the Colonial Office. If this is not so, it rather throws the whole thing out, and I do not understand how it is going to operate. There will have to be someone in the Federation akin to a High Commissioner who does the diplomatic and other duties representing the United Kingdom there, just as High Commissioners do here and in the various Commonwealth countries.
  I should like now to turn to the Supreme Court. Under Clause 1 (2) (d) of the Bill, provision is made for the Supreme Court to take over the duties of the West Indian Court of Appeal. There are just one or two points which I should like to raise upon that. So much of this is to be done by Order in Council, and I am not sure whether or not other countries not in the Federation who hitherto have had their appeals sent to the West Indian Court of Appeal will also be affected. Will the West Indian Court of Appeal remain so far as these countries are concerned?
  LORD LLOYD: Perhaps I can dispose of that point at once. The West Indian Court of Appeal ends, and they will now go to the Supreme Court.
  LORD OGMORE: And cases from British Guiana and British Honduras—will they go to the Supreme Court?
  LORD LLOYD: Yes.
  LORD OGMORE: They will go to the Supreme Court, although British Guiana and British Honduras are not in fact part of the Federation. May I ask, consequentially, whether there is an appeal from the Supreme Court to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council? Or does the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council lose ultimate responsibility in legal matters?
  May I next ask the noble Lord where the seat of the Federal Government—the Federal Capital, as it is called in this rather pompous language—is going to be? We are paying £1 million towards it and I think we are entitled to know where it is to be located. The noble Lord and his Minister have recently—and quite properly, in my view; they are to be congratulated upon it—created an Oversea Civil Service with a much wider field than it used to have. May I ask him whether its members will be available to serve in the Federation, if so required, after this Bill is passed? I think they should be. It is obvious that many of these countries which are coming toward independence, whatever their exact status, will for years feel the need of considerable help from this country in technical ways, and they will also feel the need of assistance in administrative matters. In some cases they do not think they will, but I feel sure they will. And it seems to me that the new Oversea Civil Service has been created at a particularly fortunate time, because it will enable us to supply that help if needed, whereas six months ago we could not have done so.
  I should like now to turn for a moment to the Colonial Development Corporation. Will that Corporation be able to carry out its existing commitments and to undertake new ones in the sphere of operation of the Federation? I hope they will, as here again I think that this is one of the services which we ought to be able to render to these territories. In fact, as I said when speaking on the Motion
  26
  relating to the Colonial Development Corporation, I should like to see its activity widened to cover all territories which have at any time been included in the Commonwealth. Perhaps we can amend the Overseas Resources Bill, when it comes here, to include the British Caribbean Federation, if that is necessary.
  Finally, I agree with the noble Lord that it is a pity that British Guiana and British Honduras have not joined the Federation. I do not think we can rush them. We must just hope that in due course they will come in. The Federation is a little unbalanced without them, particularly so far as population is concerned. We should like to have these important territories join with the Federation. It would give a better balance. Now is the time for all the present members of the Commonwealth to welcome with open arms this new member, and assist her in every way possible. We wish her well.
  3.36 p.m.
  LORD GLYN: My Lords, I want to mention one or two matters in connection with this most important Bill. I feel that there is no one in your Lordships' House who does not welcome the fact that we have reached this stage after eleven years of hard thinking over something which seems to me to be unique in its conception. I believe it is no further from London to Constantinople than it is from British Honduras to Trinidad, and yet this scheme is going to attempt to bring so many diverse parts together in the great Federation. I am sure that federation will be of the greatest benefit. I feel equally sure that we must not leave it at that. We must follow it through ourselves and help in the West Indies in many more ways than we have done up to now. I do not say that we have not done a great deal, but there is much still to do.
  The noble Lord who introduced the Bill did not mention one of the greatest industries which is developing in the West Indies—the tourist industry. That industry is going to bring in an enormous increase of revenue if it is properly handled. Vast sums of money have been spent in different parts of the West Indies in providing accommodation and in taking steps to attract tourists. It must be obvious to everyone that as the location of the West Indies is so near to the United States and Canada, and the islands

  27
  have such amazing climatic conditions, touring there and holiday-making there will become increasingly popular with the people of North America: and communication, which is the life-blood of the whole federal scheme, will have to be improved if we are to gain from this scheme the benefits which we should gain. I believe it is high time that communications between the West Indies and the United Kingdom—both sea communications and air communications—were improved. Had it not been for the enterprise of various people like Squadron-Leader Roberts and others who had the enterprise and forethought to develop flying services, I am certain that, as the noble Lord has said, we should not be discussing this federal scheme, which must be based on improved communications.
  There is one other point which I think is very important—it has been touched upon by Lord Ogmore. I refer to the attitude of the Service Departments here to colonial Forces. It seems to me extraordinary that a regiment like the West Indies Regiment should not be made a great centre and link between the different islands, a great centre of common service, as it was before. If you have the right type of officers to take charge of those contacts it will make the Federation all the more real. Just as wonderful work is being done at the West Indies University in Jamaica to make the people understand each other, if the Navy, Army and Air Force go out to recruit troops out there and train them technically, not necessarily only for war purposes though that will be the basis of it, that technical education would be useful in industry. I believe that that matter ought to be considered and carried through, but it seems to me that unless something is done by Parliament in this country it will be difficult to get the Service Departments to make this move.
  The noble Lord said it would be a great mistake to force those portions of the West Indies which do not want to enter the Federation at the moment. to come in. I am sure it would be. I understand that so far as the British Virgin Islands and other territories are concerned, all those who have expressed the wish not to be incorporated in the Federation will be able to participate in the various co-ordinated and advisory services which will be carried out by the
  28
  Federal Government, and provision will have to be made for appeals from all these territories to be heard by the Federal Supreme Court.
  I do not suppose that anybody imagines that the Caribbean Federation will take its final shape for some years, and everything should be done to help the Federation to take hold; but we shall not do that by forcing people in against their will. They have to come in willingly. After seeing the good results that follow the economic side of federation, they will possibly want to come in. I am sure that if the Federation is going to be what we all hope it will be, if we give it the aid I trust we shall give, by improved communications and developments of that kind, no doubt in due course it will be the wish of these territories now standing outside to come in; but on no account must they be forced. It is important to mention that now, because there is a risk that a bad impression will be formed if, for the sake of administrative convenience, certain territories far removed from a Colony which had been attached to it in the past for purely local administrative reasons—outlying islands like the Virgin Islands—were not left to go into this matter and make representations in the proper quarters that their special conditions should be considered.
  Finally, there is the question of the arrival in this country of so many British West Indians to obtain work here. Many of them are doing very well. I am sure that one of the most important matters is to use the Federal economic schemes to build up local industries which will be sufficiently attractive to keep West Indians in the West Indies, and to train them there. Some organisation should be formed to test people before they leave the West Indies to come here, so that they could be fitted into suitable jobs through the Ministry of Labour and other organisations. Of course, it is recognised that it is a case of "Last in, first out" should there by any industrial crisis leading to unemployment, the threat of which is with us to-day. It is not fair to the people in the West Indies not to give them the opportunity of a preliminary training which would help them to get jobs automatically when they arrive here, without their having to seek them out.
  I am sure that we shall all remember this day as a day of high promise. I

  29
  think everybody who has played any part in this scheme ought to be congratulated—Sir Hubert Rance, Sir Stephen Luke and others, not forgetting the present Governors of some of the larger Islands of the British West Indies, who have done so much to prepare the way, as a result of which Parliament is able to consider this measure to-day.
  3.45 p.m.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, as congratulations, all well deserved, are flying about this afternoon, perhaps I may be allowed to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, on the pleasing and able manner in which he introduced this Bill, and to say how much I agree with him, and with my noble friend. Lord Ogmore, that this Bill is of real importance in the history of the British West Indies and in the history of the Commonwealth.
  I should begin by declaring a personal interest in the Bill. I believe that I was the first Minister at the Colonial Office after the war—it has been done frequently since then—to make a round trip of all the British territories in the Caribbean. My tour ended—and this, I think, was a distinctive feature which has not been shared by subsequent Ministers—with a conference in Barbados of the Caribbean Governors. At that conference, with the help of Sir Hubert Rance, who had been chairman of the Standing Closer Association Committee, we discussed, among other things, the Report of this Committee on Federation. This experience of mine in the West Indies convinced me, if I needed any convincing, that federation offered the only path to self-government for these small and poor territories. Ever since that time I have followed their progress in that direction with immense interest and hopefulness.
  A long time—nine years in all—has passed since the Montego Bay Conference in 1947, which first accepted the principle of federation and, the introduction of this enabling Bill to establish the Federal Constitution. I do not regret this long interval: I regard it as having been necessary to allow the West Indian leaders time to agree among themselves about the structure of the Federal Government. I do not think anyone has mentioned this point so far, so I should like here to say that I think the West Indian political leaders, above all., are to be warmly con-
  30
  gratulated on the patient and skilful negotiations that have eventuated in unanimous agreement about the new federal set-up. Indeed, the most promising feature of the federal structure is that it is a genuine West Indian product, not a product of Whitehall.
  At successive conferences between 1947 and the February conference this year, in London, as the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd pointed out, and by majority votes in the West Indian Legislatures all the decisions leading to federation had been taken by the elected representatives of the West Indian peoples. They have chosen to federate of their own free will. The role of Whitehall has been limited to that of giving encouragement and expert advice—and very valuable these have been. To my mind, this is the ideal relationship between Whitehall and any Colony in the framing of a self-governing Constitution. The British Caribbean Federation, because it has not been imposed by us and has had to wait for the consent of the territories that will now come in, is not likely to show the strains and stresses that are already, unfortunately, showing in the Central African Federation.
  Of course our friends in the West Indies still have many difficulties to face, and perhaps we can do them a useful service by pointing out some of the main obstacles. The strength of any country depends, in the last resort, on the loyalty of its citizens. In the British Caribbean there is plenty of local patriotism, and the islanders are extremely proud of their own islands; but at the present time only a few educated people at the top have any conception of a wider loyalty. The islanders. when this Bill passes into law, will become British Caribbean citizens, but I think that they will not at once feel a British Caribbean patriotism. There is no reason why this should not come in the course of time, but something must be done to bridge the immense distances that separate the islands. I believe that cheap sea and air services between the islands and the mainland territories, which would enable the ordinary islanders to travel in their holidays—it might well be organised by the new Federal Government—would do more than anything else to develop the wider patriotism. If the ordinary Trinidadian or the Jamaican is to feel as much pride in the future at being a British Caribbean as he now feels in

  31
  belonging to his native island, much greater emphasis will have to be placed, from the earliest possible age, starting in the schoolroom, on everything that opens the mind to the unity of the British West Indies.
  Another difficult problem is that of personnel for ministerial positions in the Federal Government. I was rather concerned, I must admit, about the decision of the February Conference of Ministers, that the Federal Ministers in the Territorial Governments could not serve simultaneously in the Federal Government. The quality of the West Indian political leaders is very high, and a man like Mr. Manley, or Mr. Grantley Adams. would hold his own as a statesman in any country. Able men of this calibre who go into politics arc few in number. however, and it might be disastrous if, during the crucial initial stage in federation, during the early years, the Federal Government were unable to secure the services of the ablest and most experienced of the West Indian political leaders. Without intending to be presumptuous, I suggest that this is a matter where there might be second thoughts. As my noble friend Lord Ogmore pointed out, so long as it lacks the support of membership of the two mainland territories the new Federation will not be as complete as many of us had hoped it might be. But the door has been left wide open for them, and they can come in later. Of course, it would be the greatest mistake to force the pace. Here, I agree entirely with my noble relative Lord Glyn and my noble friend Lord Ogmore, both of whom rightly placed a great deal of emphasis on this point
  Surely the best advertisement for federation will be the popularity and success of the Federal Government and the Federal Administration and, of course, to reinforce this there will be all the advantages of regional co-operation, in which the mainland territories will continue to share. We all know that British Honduras is chronically afraid and suspicious of Jamaica. But if Jamaica—as no doubt will be the case—does not use her strength in the Federal Legislature to push Jamaican interests, surely that will give great reassurance to the British Honduranians. Again, they will also realise, after federation has got going, that this is not British rule in another
  32
  form, because they will see for themselves that we are not interfering in the affairs of the Federal Government
  So far as British Guiana is concerned, I think it is clear—and here we are in entire agreement with Her Majesty's Government—that we must wait until there is an elected Legislature for a decision about federation. If Dr. Jagan's Party were to secure a majority at a General Election, then presumably British Guiana would stay outside. But, fortunately, his Party appears to be split, and there are many indications, of which I know the noble Lord opposite is well aware, that moderate opinion in British Guiana is gaining ground. Most of the Guianese of African origin would, I feel, be willing to come in. The East Indians, who form a large part of the population, and who still have some anxiety about the African majority in a Federal Parliament, will be reassured when they find that the Federal Parliament, when it gets going, respects minority rights—as, of course, it will do. But the timing of the decision in British Guiana is all-important. I think that if we have patience, and are prepared to wait for the right moment, then there is a good chance that this enormous and largely undeveloped territory, with its substantial population, will join its island neighbours
  This new Commonwealth country, the British Caribbean Federation, is in a position to make a unique contribution to the whole Commonwealth, and we shall have much to learn from it. It will be the first multi-racial State to enter the inner circle of self-governing Commonwealth countries. It will be able to show the multi-racial societies in other parts of the Commonwealth. in Africa and Asia, that political power in the hands of non-Europeans need not be used to discriminate against Europeans or other racial minorities. We must learn from it how black, brown and white people can live together, without separation by social, economic or political barriers. But the influence of the British Caribbean Federation on the rest of the Commonwealth will depend largely on the intimacy of its relationship with other Commonwealth Governments
  The British Caribbean Federation will not, of course, have Dominion status, and it may have a long time to wait before

  33
  it has. But—and here I should like to endorse the view of my noble friend Lord Ogmore—is there any real reason why, even at this stage of its development, when it will have complete internal self-government, it should not be asked to take part in many of those discussions and exchanges of opinion at ministerial level which are the lifeblood of the Commonwealth? The recent Prime Ministers' Conference decided that the Central African Federation should, as of right, attend future conferences of Prime Ministers. I believe that that right is not limited to the tenure of office of the noble Viscount, Lord Malvern, and that anyone who becomes Prime Minister of the Central African Federation in future will receive an invitation to the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference. Of course, the Central African Federation is also less than a Dominion, and its constitutional status is similar and comparable to that which the British Caribbean Federation will have
  I hope, therefore, that Her Majesty's Government and the other Commonwealth Governments—because it concerns them just as much as it does us—will start considering now whether the Prime Minister of the British Caribbean Federation should not be asked to Conferences of Commonwealth Prime Ministers, and whether other Ministers, such as the Finance Minister, should not be invited to ministerial conferences when they are concerned with matters affecting the Caribbean territories. If we treat the British Caribbean Federation as an equal in consultation and discussion, we shall do much to make up for its lack of political equality and for its continuing subordination in certain matters—external affairs and, to some extent, finance—to the British Government
  It will take some time before the new Federation reaches Dominion status, and the pressure of opinion in the West Indies for this status will grow steadily and rapidly as time passes. Of course, we all recognise that time must elapse for the Federation to organise its own defence services, its representation in other countries and the other requirements of sovereign independence. As it does this, it will find that increasing expenditure will add to the difficulty which it now experiences of gaining financial independence of the United Kingdom. I very much fear, looking to the future, that financial
  34
  dependence may become the main obstacle to the achievement of Dominion status. I trust that, when the time comes, Her Majesty's Government will not confront the Federation with the cruel choice between freedom and penury. I cannot believe that Her Majesty's Government could not devise a method of giving financial aid to the West Indies without retaining political control. After all, it has been done before. Economic aid without political strings has been given by the Marshall Plan, and is now being given by the Colombo Plan. It is not beyond the wit of man to devise a method of this kind, and surely, if ever it should apply. it should apply to members bf our own Commonwealth and our own fellow-citizens in the West Indies
  I should like to join with the other speakers on both sides of the House in welcoming this Bill, in wishing every success to the British Caribbean Federation, arid in expressing the hope that within the shortest possible tune it will achieve Dominion status.
  4.0 p.m.
  LORD LLOYD: My Lords, I shall be brief, because I know that there is a great deal of business still before your Lordships. I thank all noble Lords who have spoken for the warm welcome they have given to this Bill, and I will try briefly to deal with the points raked during the course of the debate.
  LORD OGMORE: This is a very important Bill, which deals with the future of all these territories, and, if I may say so, I do not think the noble Lord need hurry. I would much rather he took his time.
  LORD LLOYD: I was thinking merely of the convenience of the House. They will hear me again twice this afternoon, I am afraid. However, I am quite prepared to take as much time as the noble Lord wants. But there is only one answer to every question, arid I will do my best to give it as expeditiously as I can.
  Both the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, raised a certain amount of speculation about the future of the Federation, and I do not in any way blame them for that, because, clearly, it is something we have to consider. At the same time, however, we have reached only this stage, and it has taken us eleven years to get here.

  35
  Therefore, do not let us speculate too soon about the future until we are quite certain that we have established what this Bill seeks to establish. That is going to take a year or two in itself. As regards the status of the Federation, clearly that is a matter which in due course will have to be considered. It is not really a matter upon which either noble Lord can expect me, standing at this Box, to give a final answer this afternoon, because it is a subject which depends ultimately upon the Commonwealth Prime Ministers themselves. Whom they invite to their conferences is a matter entirely for them, and one which must be agreed amongst themselves. I am sure that they will pay attention to what noble Lords have said, but it is, after all, their affair. The noble Lord regretted that the Federation would for the time being continue to be administered by the Colonial Office. That, after all, is the ordinary procedure until any state or territory, or federation of territories, achieves full membership.
  THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: May I point out that relations with the Government of the Central African Federation are dealt with by the Commonwealth Relations Office?
  LORD LLOYD: With great respect, I would point out that the noble Earl is not entirely correct. To be accurate, they are dealt with by both. Therefore, membership of the Commonwealth must depend, as I see it. on the consideration of all members of that Commonwealth. I do not wish to come to any final or definite conclusion this afternoon—it is far too early—and that is clearly a matter which will have to be considered and discussed in the light of the progress of the Federation and also in the light of the views of the members of the Commonwealth as to whether the new Federation has the qualifications of independence and viability which qualify it for that membership. That, I think, is as far as it would be wise to speculate this afternoon.
  The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said something with which I entirely agree. He drew attention to the great importance of the first appointments of this new Federation, in particular of the Governor-General. Clearly at this stage I am in no position to discuss those appointments. But I should like to assure the noble Lord that we are just as conscious as he
  36
  is of the importance of having the right people and the best people in those jobs at this important and critical period in the constitutional development which is taking place.
  The noble Lord referred to the need that there will almost certainly be for expatriate staff to be available to the Federation, certainly in technical fields and, the noble Lord thought, in the administrative field as well. I can give the noble Lord the assurance that we shall continue to make them available. The noble Lord then asked a question whether the Colonial Development Corporation will be able to continue its work. The answer is that it will, in exactly the same way as it does now—not merely with existing schemes, but in any future schemes it chooses to undertake. I hope that on those points the noble Lord will feel reasonably satisfied.
  The noble Lord also mentioned the question of the West India Regiment, and here again I agree with what he said. As a matter of fact, my right honourable friend has been for some time in consultation with the Governments of the West Indian territories with a view to re-forming the West India Regiment. These consultations, I am afraid, have inevitably taken some time. in view of the number of Governments to be consulted and various other complications which always arise when this sort of thing is being done. But I can tell the noble Lord this much: that we are now considering certain proposals which have been agreed at least in principle by the West Indian Governments, and that is an advance.
  Next, the noble Lord asked me about the position of appeals to the Privy Council, which I quite agree is a very important matter. I think I had better give him the full position. There will be no restriction on Her Majesty's right to grant special leave to appeal to the Privy Council from the decision of any court in the Federation. Subject to that, there will be a right of appeal to the Privy Council from the Federal Supreme Court in the following cases: first, from the final judgments of the Federal Supreme Court within its original jurisdiction except in regard to election petitions; secondly, from final judgments of the Federal Supreme Court on constitutional questions referred to it by inferior courts; thirdly. from final judgments of the

  37
  Federal Supreme Court in civil appeals where the subject matter of the dispute is of the 'value of £500 or more, and in divorce; and, fourthly, by leave of the Privy Council from other judgments of the Federal Supreme Court, whether final or interlocutory, where the question involved in the appeal is one which, by reason of its general or public importance, or otherwise, ought to be submitted to the Privy Council for decision.
  Whether these appeals will be provided for in the Constitution or by separate Order in Council under the Judicial Committee Acts—I believe that is the usual procedure—has riot been decided, but I do not think that is what the noble Lord minds about. He wishes to make quite sure that the right of appeal is preserved, and I hope he is satisfied. I ought to add that 'there will be no right of appeal of a member Territory from the Supreme Court to the Privy Council except with the leave of the Federal Supreme Court, which will be granted only in exceptional circumstances—that is to say, the system cannot be short-circuited. The case will have to go through what are known as "the proper channels;" and I think that is quite right.
  My noble friend Lord Glyn, in his interesting speech, made reference to the tourist industry. He is quite right, and I agree with every word he said. It is not only a very important industry, but, particularly in Jamaica, it might in future become almost the most important industry. The main point of his speech was that he urged that people should not be forced into the Federation against their wishes. Certainly I would be the first person to agree with him about that. The principle, as has been brought out by every noble Lord who has spoken, is that this was done, and always has been done, at the wishes of the West Indian territories themselves. The British Virgin Islands decided that they did not want to come in, and they have not come in. Nor, so far, have British Honduras or British Guiana.
  The only case that I gather the noble Lord has in mind is the Cayman islands. I am bound to tell the noble Lord that, although I have heard from private conversations in some quarters that there was not entire satisfaction in the Cayman Islands over this question of Federation, so far as I am aware no official repre-
  38
  sentation has ever been received by my right honourable friend, that there was any dissatisfaction over this matter. As all noble Lords are aware, the Cayman Islands are an appendage of Jamaica, but they do not come under the Jamaica Legislature; they are administered directly by the Governor. If there had been this great discontent, I should have expected to hear some official representation from those in the Cayman Islands themselves. As a matter of fact, the only recent view that we have had expressed from the Cayman Islands was a wish to retain their present relationship with Jamaica.
  LORD GLYN: Does that mean that they retain their special position as being administered by the Governor, and free from any other links?
  LORD LLOYD: Quite so. I appreciate that point, but I rather gathered from the noble Lord that he was suggesting that they were being forced into Federation against their will. That: may be the case—I am not suggesting that it is not—but I have not heard that that is their feeling, though I have heard that they wish to remain under the administration of the Governor. We are locking to see what safeguards can be given them in that respect.
  May I turn to the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel? I regard him almost as I do myself: an old West Indian by now. He knows these Islands probably better than I do. He managed to extract from the taxpayers more trips there than I have done, and I have always regarded him particularly as a friend of the West Indians. He questions one point which is an important point: that is, the decision taken by the London Conference that Members or Ministers should not be able to sit in both Houses. As the noble Earl would probably expect, there was a considerable debate about this matter and different points of view were expressed, but in the end there is no doubt whatsoever that the majority of those present—the West Indians themselves—felt that, although there were the advantages which were adumbrated by the noble Earl this afternoon, the practical disadvantages, the virtual impossibility, because of the travelling difficulties, for anybody to be a Minister in both places, on the whole

  39
  outweighed the other advantages. Therefore they were not as despondent as the noble Earl is. That decision was taken not by Her Majesty's Government but by the Conference. Therefore there is nothing more to be said about it.
  Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore—I omitted this point before—asked me where the capital was going to be. The answer is, "I wish I knew"; because if I did know, it would make much simpler a great deal of the planning of the Federation. He probably knows that this was a matter on which strong feelings were expressed by everyone in the Conference, and after twenty-four hours' debate no great decision could be reached. It was therefore considered prudent to refer the whole question to a Commission, which would recommend on practical grounds the most suitable place or would make a choice of suitable places upon which a decision would be taken by the Standing Committee in the West Indies. That Commission is now working. It will recommend in due course and I hope that eventually the matter will be solved to the satisfaction of everyone. I hope I have covered all the questions raised, and I apologise for detaining your Lordships for so long.
  On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

  GOVERNORS' PENSIONS BILL
  4.15 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD LLOYD: My Lords, I seem to be having rather an innings to-day! I apologise to your Lordships, although I have already mentioned it to the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore; and he, at any rate, cannot complain. I now have to detain your Lordships in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. There never was a Bill the Second Reading of which I moved with greater pleasure. The purpose of the Bill is to provide a new method of calculating the amount of a Governor's pension which will normally bring a Governor into line with the pension arrangements which apply to an oversea civil servant. The number of persons to be covered by the Bill is not large. Only forty-nine
  40
  Governors have retired on pension in the last ten years, and four died while still serving.
  The situation under the existing Acts is really an extremely unsatisfactory one. A Governor's pension is calculated by reference to his length of service according to the class of Governorship—from £4 a month in Class IV, to £7 a month in Class I. This system, unlike that in the Home Civil Service and the Oversea Civil Service, bears no relation to the salary earned by a Governor. As your Lordships know, in both these Services there have been very considerable increases of salary since the war and such increases, of course, enhance the pensions of the officers concerned. Very different is the present position of a Governor. An increase in his salary makes no difference to the pension he may expect, and, as a result, in a number of cases the pension of a Governor in respect of his civil service and his Governor's service combined is less than he would have received had he remained in the Oversea Civil Service and retired from one of the senior posts in it.
  That is a most ludicrous situation. If I may, I will give your Lordships one example of the kind of anomaly which can take place. A few years ago a high-ranking oversea civil servant was appointed to a second-class Governorship. His combined Civil Service and Governor's pensions, calculated under the existing Acts amount to just over £1,500, whereas had he remained in the Civil Service post until the same date of retirement, his colonial pension would have exceeded £2,300.
  This Bill proposes to remedy this anomalous position by providing that the pension of a Governor who was previously in the Oversea Civil Service—and the majority of Governors are in this category—shall be based on his final salary and on his total period of public service. His pension will be calculated at the rate applicable generally throughout the Oversea Civil Service, namely 1/600th of the average yearly salary during the three years before final retirement for every month of service. The oversea Governments concerned will, as at present, pay the pensions awarded in respect of the civil service under their respective pension laws—that is to say, for their bit of their Governor's service—

  41
  and the balance will be paid by Her Majesty's Government. That deals with the Governors who also have oversea civil service. In the other case, a Governor who has had no previous oversea civil service, provided that his total Government service is not less than ten years, will be eligible for a pension at the rate of 1/600th of his average salary for each month he has served as a Governor.
  Clause 4 of the Bill limits the pension which a Governor may receive from all sources to £3.000, or to two-thirds of his highest salary, whichever is the less. The amount of £3,000 may be varied by Treasury order, but the two-thirds of salary limit will remain. It is the intention to relate the maximum pension to the maximum which a Permanent Secretary in the Home Civil Service may earn after forty years' service. Similarly, the amount of a gratuity which may be paid to the personal representative of a Governor who dies in office and who was previously a home or oversea civil servant will, it is proposed, be the average yearly amount of his final salary, subject to a maximum of £4,500—and that also incidentally, is alterable by Treasury order.
  There are certain other points which I think perhaps I ought to draw to your Lordships' attention. Clause 2 of the Bill seeks to reduce from 55 to 50 the age at which a pension may be granted to a Governor. Cases arise in which it is desirable that a Governor should be able to retire at an earlier age than 55 in which it is not appropriate to apply the provisions for ill-health or abolition of office, or the provision in Section 9 of the 1911 Act, under which a pension may be awarded if it is impracticable to find a Governor further appropriate employment. I can assure your Lordships, however, that the cases in which pensions will be awarded at an earlier age than 55 will be rare. In the great majority of cases there is no reason why a Governor should not serve until the age of 55 or even beyond.
  Clause 5 introduces an arrangement which is common throughout the Oversea Civil Service—namely, to allow a Governor to commute not more than one-quarter of his pension for a lump sum, whilst Clause 6 seeks to give a Governor the same privilege as a Home Civil Servant, that of allocating, if he so wishes, not more than one-third of his pension
  42
  for the benefit of his wife or other dependants. Clause 14 applies the provisions of the Bill to pensions and gratuities granted after 31st August, 1955, but safeguards the rights of a Governor serving on 1st September, 1955, to the provisions of the existing Acts if these are more favourable to him.
  My Lords, I do not think there is anything more that I need say in explanation of the Bill. I am quite sure that all your Lordships will agree with me that it is wrong that Governors should be at a disadvantage in comparison with civil servants, and particularly with over-sea civil servants. In these changing and difficult times they carry a great weight of responsibility upon their shoulders, and the country owes a very great deal to their devoted service. It is only right, therefore, that this worthy and distinguished body of public servants should receive treatment similar to that which the civil servant has long enjoyed. I therefore commend this Bill with confidence to your Lordships, and I beg to move that it be now read a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Lloyd.)
  4.22 p.m.
  LORD OGMORE: My Lords, if I may take up one remark of the noble Lord, I, for one, do not complain at all at his speaking again this afternoon, and at some length. He has not, to my mind, spoken longer than he should have done. We always welcome the noble Lord and these two Bills relate to important matters. If the Government put them on the Order Paper, they have to be fully discussed—we cannot slide over them. I should like to point out one feature which I am sure is in your Lordships' minds: the Government are responsible for 70 million people overseas, as compared with 52 million people in this country. and the amount of Parliamentary time given to the affairs of the 70 million overseas people is minute compared with the time given to our own problems in this country. So if we do spend a few minutes on these matters on a Monday afternoon for one, consider the time well spent.
  The test of this Bill, it seems to me, is first, whether it is of benefit to the public service and, secondly, whether it is of benefit to the Governors. I think the noble Lord opposite has set out clearly the benefits to the Governors, but he did

  43
  not set out quite so fully the benefit to the public service, and perhaps I may say a word on that aspect. It seems to me that the answer to the question, is the Bill of benefit to the public service? is Yes—for two reasons. First of all, it will enable the Governor to count his previous service in the Home or Oversea Civil Service towards the ten years' service which qualifies him for a pension, however short his service as a Governor may be; and secondly, it lowers, from 55 to 50, the age at which a Governor may retire. It seems to me that these provisions widen the field of choice of suitable people for Governors, and they also enable the weary, and perhaps the "misfits," to be removed earlier than is now possible. Although it does not often happen, sometimes a Governor becomes weary. I have known one or two who were obviously not quite up to their job towards the end of their period of service, and I have also known others who were "misfits" in their particular territory.
  That brings me to another point. I think that in the Colonial Office the choice of Governors is still actuated too much by: "It is Buggins's turn". It is a question of seniority; and in my view, not enough care is taken always to ensure that the right man is selected for the right spot. Very rarely is a person selected as Governor who is not able to be a Governor—I am quite sure that there are very few, if any, cases where that happens—but I have known several cases where a man has been sent to some place for which he was not suitable. A Governor who is sent, we will say, to Sierra Leone may be quite suitable for that place but not for British Somaliland; or a man suitable for Fiji may not be suitable for Hong Kong. It seems to me that sometimes the Colonial Office hardly seems to be aware of this fact; they appoint a man, by seniority or for some other reason, to an office for which he is not suitable and in which he does not make a success, whereas in another territory he may have done quite well.
  The position is made more difficult by the rather absurd classification of territories into first, second and third class Governorships, carrying different salaries and allowances. A Class 3 territory may have greater need of an experienced Civil Service Governor than, say, a Class 2 or a Class 1 territory; such a post may be
  44
  a much harder one to hold down than one in a Class 1 or a Class 2 territory, because the problems involved may be extremely intricate and may entail a great many "headaches." A case in point is British Somaliland. I cannot think of any territory which promises such potential "headaches" as British Somaliland, yet it is a Class 3 territory, and a man who is just starting out may be sent there, whereas, in fact the job requires a very experienced man. Owing to salary and status, of course, as a rule the new men are funnelled into Class 3, and they then work upwards.
  I think the test in relation to people who are appointed as Governors should be, what are the needs of the individual territory, and not, what is the seniority of the individual Governor. Generally speaking, I would say that the needs of the smaller and of less advanced. territories require Civil Service Governors. I imagine that it would be rare that it would be suitable to send a political Governor to a territory of that kind. If they can be found from the Oversea Civil Service, so much the better: but, failing that, it would be better to take them from the Home Civil Service. The task that confronts such a territory needs experienced administrators and usually the necessary resources are not available there to provide experienced administrators in addition to the Governor, and perhaps the Chief Secretary. But territories, whether Class 1 or Class 2, where there is a lively political element, especially territories where there is a multi-racial population, would often be better served by someone from outside the Civil Service—someone with political experience, unless in the Oversea Civil Service there is a man with exceptional qualifications in that respect.
  Of course, it may be that a man with political experience and flair can be found in the Civil Service; but we cannot count upon that—in fact, we cannot expect it, because, as we know, the whole training of a civil servant is different from that of a politician, and we cannot expect him to be able to grapple with the sort of problems that a territory like Kenya, for example, poses, for which he has an inadequate training. A number of the oversea civil servants spend many years of their life administering territories which have not a

  45
  particularly inflammable political situation and, therefore, are often out of touch with the conditions which they are likely to meet in the sort of territory I have mentioned. For all these reasons, I think that this Bill is obviously going to help the situation. I welcome it, and I congratulate the Government on introducing it to the House.
  4.30 p.m.
  LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, in rising to welcome the introduction of this Bill, I should like to make one or two comments on it. I most heartily welcome it, and I am relieved of what would normally be the necessity of declaring a personal interest because I understand that it is to apply only to the future. In spite of Lord Lloyd's statement in introducing the Bill, and the eulogy he pronounced upon Governors, one gathers that the responsibilities of Governors started only in the year 1955. I am not at all sure whether he said that there were forty-nine Governors who had retired in the last ten years and four who had died in office. Those, or most of them, have no relation whatever to this Bill because they will not benefit at all under it. I make that remark to show that I may speak with the same freedom as anybody else without a personal interest in the Bill; for that is my position
  This Bill is an act of belated justice. I do not think it is a subject for congratulation to this Government or any other Government, because for the past thirty years the treatment of these officers has been something in the nature of a public disgrace. On looking at the Bill, I think there are one or two things about it which call for a little comment. There is still what perhaps I ought to call the "Treasury attitude of mind" running through even this Bill. The British Government apparently finds it difficult to be generous to its servants when they retire. I do not know why there should be a maximum of £3,000 in the pension for the Governors of the future. I do not see why the death gratuity maximum should be £4,500. Those matters are referred to in Clauses 4 and 7 of the Bill.
  In particular, I should like to refer to Clause 5, which deals with widows' pensions and makes it possible for a Governor to provide for his wife, in case he predeceases her, by surrendering a portion
  46
  of his pension by which she may benefit. In passing. I should like to join issue with the noble Lord who introduced this Bill when he drew the analogy of the Whitehall civil servant. There is no analogy whatever in regard to the widows' pensions. Everyone with any knowledge of the Colonial Service knows that no successful Governor can be successful without owing at least 50 per cent, of his success to his wife: the wife renders as great a public service as the Governor himself. I remember a Secretary of State, a Member of your Lordships' House to-day, who said to me in days gone by: "I never make a recommendation for an appointment of a Governor until I have seen his wife." We all know that the wife may make or mar the man's work.
  I think the treatment accorded under this Bill is far less than generous. I know that the British Government, which I suppose means the Treasury, is accustomed to deal with domestic bereavement in vulgar fractions, but I suggest it does not become the Government of this country not to make adequate provision. In the days before this Bill (and the position is only slightly improved now) if within three days of his retirement a Governor were to die, although he might have served for any number of years, even the whole of his working life, the pension died with him and his wife received exactly nothing. The much maligned business man would never dream of treating his responsible servants in that manner, and I suggest that it is not right that the British Government should do it either. There is the kind of unnecessary parsimony which runs through this Bill, and I suggest it still needs revision.
  I should like also to take up the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, in his remark about political appointments. It is true that a civil servant may have a lack of the knowledge of politics which a person who has lived a political life at home may possess, but an even greater danger to the Colony would be that a politician appointed as Governor from this country—who necessarily would rarely be a politician of the first rank, because if he were he would not accept a Colonial Governorship; he would have a bigger career open to him in this country—while he might have familiarity with politics and politicians would have no knowledge whatever of colonial administration. That, in itself, would contain considerable danger. I

  47
  do not wish to detain your Lordships over this Bill beyond making those comments, but I suggest that it is still lacking in the generosity which would become the British Government.
  4.36 p.m.
  LORD CLITHEROE: My Lords, I wish to say only a few words in this debate. I should like to add my support to the Bill and to say how sorry I am to learn from the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, something which I had suspected on reading the Bill: that these increased pensions do not apply to those distinguished Governors whose services terminated before 1955. That is a matter of great regret to me. There is one other point I should like to raise with regard to colonial pensions generally, and it is this. The present system is not satisfactory because colonial civil servants who have had the fortune, or misfortune, to serve in the poorer Colonies are much less well off with regard to pensions compared with those who have served in the richer Colonies. I do not think that that is right, because it is not the colonial civil servant himself who determines where he is to do his service; he goes where he is told. If he happens to have served in the poorer Colonies it is quite unjust, in my opinion, that he should be prejudiced by it. I daresay it is not appropriate to this Bill, but it seemed to me an opportunity for saying something which I have wanted to say for a long time.
  4.38 p.m.
  LORD LLOYD: My Lords, I find myself in a slightly schizophrenic condition in this matter. As the son of a Governor, I cannot help having sympathy with what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, and also my noble friend Lord Clitheroe. I am sure I should be better off to-day if what the noble Lords have suggested had been practised a long time ago. But whether or not this Bill is perfect, whether or not it gives everything the Governor ought to have, I think your Lordships will agree that it is at any rate a considerable advance on the previous set-up. I hope that to that extent your Lordships will still welcome this Bill.
  The noble Lord, Lord Milverton, suggested various ways in which he thinks
  48
  the Bill could be improved. If he feels that, perhaps he will put down some Amendments on the Committee stage, though I want to get it through as soon as possible for the benefit of the Governors concerned, and I cannot promise to accept the Amendments when he puts them down. I should like to correct one or two things he said. First of all, he did not see why the amounts should be limited to £3,000 in one case or £4,500 in the other. The answer to the noble Lord is that they are not; they can be varied by Treasury order. The whole idea is that the Governor should be equated, qua pension, with the Permanent Under-Secretary in a home Department. The noble Lord says he thinks that is a wrong basis, but I am not entirely sure that it is unreasonable. At any rate, that is the idea, and therefore these sums can be varied by Order in Council, so that any changes that are made in the status of a Permanent Under-Secretary in a home Department may be made equally for a Governor.
  LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord for one moment, may I suggest that any Treasury revision of an Order aimed upwards would be something in the nature of a miracle?
  LORD LLOYD: I am afraid that I am hardly in a position to comment upon that. Let me now attempt to deal with the other point raised by the noble Lord. He referred to what he considered was the meanness of the Bill with regard to the wives of Governors. Again, I am sorry that the Bill does not go as far as the noble Lord would like it to do. He must remember, however, that in so far as Governors have been overseas civil servants, in most cases they are already beneficiaries under contributory schemes which most Governments have for this purpose. Therefore, they have what most people in industry have, or something similar, over and above what is provided in the Bill.
  LORD MILVERTON: May I interrupt the noble Lord again to say that the maximum pension which a widow can receive under that colonial scheme is about £500 a year.
  LORD LLOYD: I can see that I am unlikely to satisfy the noble Lord. I am

  49
  doing my best, but I do not seem to be very successful so far as he is concerned. However, as I say, if the noble Lord cares to put down Amendments we shall be ready to consider them.
  I should like now to deal with the point raised by my noble friend Lord Clitheroe—that is the question of the difference that arises in pensions and, indeed, in other emoluments, between territories. I must confess that I have a good deal of sympathy with what the noble Lord has said, because it is a matter which is not confined to pensions; it extends to all emoluments. And let me say that I am afraid that, despite what has been said, the West Indian Governments are probably the worst payers in the territories. Certainly a man who serves a West Indian Government gets less than someone who serves in Africa. This is a real problem and a very difficult one. Noble Lords who have sat in the Colonial Office will probably agree when I say that it is a problem which has interested all of us for many years.
  LORD OGMORE: Is not that one of the objectives of the Oversea Civil Service: that these pensions and salaries shall be the responsibility of the Home Government? A contribution will be made to them. A man, I take it, will be salaried and pensioned on a proper basis, irrespective of the territory in which he serves.
  LORD LLOYD: I do not think we can enter into a debate on the Oversea Civil Service. But the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, is wrong in what he says. That scheme is confined at the moment to Nigeria.
  LORD OGMORE: Others can come in.
  LORD LLOYD: I do not think we can debate the Oversea Civil Service now. As I have said, it is a very complicated matter and it would not apply in this case. I certainly agree about the difficulty. It has always been the principle that officers should be employed by the colonial Governrnent, and there are strong arguments still why that should be so. To change the whole system at this stage would lead us into great difficulties. It has been considered by Colonial Secretary after Colonial Secretary and I am afraid that they have all ultimately come to the view that, on balance and despite the difficulties, the present system is probably the
  50
  best we can get. I am conscious of what the noble Lord has said. I am conscious of it in relation to this Bill. I will certainly look at the matter again and see whether we can do anything to meet the noble Lord's point. But I should not like him to think that it is very probable that we shall be able to do so. However, it is a valid point and I will certainly look at it again. I hope that your Lordships will now give the Bill a Second Reading.
  My Lords, may I, with leave of the House, make one further observation? I invited the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, to put down Amendments for the Committee stage. I am now reminded of the position and I realise that that was a very foolish suggestion, because as this is a certified Money Bill it will be impossible to have Amendments. I must therefore correct what I said and merely say that I will take note of the noble Lord's objection.
  On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL
  4.47 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, this is a Bill which we pass at intervals of a year or so, to enable the National Debt Commissioners to provide out of the Local Loans Fund money required by the Public Works Loan Board to lend to local authorities and similar bodies. The last Bill, which was passed in March, 1955, authorised advances of £500 million, of which £406 million had been used up to July 13 last, This Bill has a rather different background from the last, as different arrangements for local authority borrowing are now in operation. Before the war larger authorities were expected to make their own arrangements for borrowing from the market. From 1945, they had to come to the Public Works Loan Board for all their borrowing. Since 1952, local authorities have been free to borrow outside the Board but were still entitled to go to the Board if they wished. The latest move has been that since the Autumn Budget the onus has been put on borrowers to try to get money elsewhere

  51
  before going to the Board. The arrangement regarding commitments has also been changed, in that borrowers have to go to the Board within one month of the money actually being required. By this means we avoid the former long list of problematical future commitments. Rates of interest have also advanced and are now related to the rates at which larger authorities can borrow in the markets. The net result of these changes in policy and procedure is that it is not necessary to provide such large sums as before. This Bill, therefore, is for a figure of £300 million of loans, with £400 million for the total of loans plus commitments. We expect this to last rather over a year. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Hawke.)
  4.49 p.m.
  LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: My Lords, the noble Lord who has introduced this measure has pointed out that it is in a slightly different form, or rather has a slightly difference purpose, from previous Bills of this kind that have been brought before your Lordships' House from another place for a great many years past. The noble Lord was, of course, quite correct in his explanation of the differences. I well remember a few years back when the late Lord Shepherd was rather anxious about the effect of the change which enabled major authorities to go into the market, instead of having to apply to the local loans authorities, as they were during the war, because of the effects upon the Budget and the picture of the overall finances. He was right in thinking that it had an effect, because it took the borrowings of those authorities who went direct to the market out of the figures that appear "below the line" in the Budget. I did not feel very strongly about that, because it was a voluntary procedure, which it was open to major local authorities to use or not, as they desired. But, of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, has said, the position is now greatly changed. Only a few months ago the Treasury came to a decision, which was announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that all local authorities must try to get their money on the open market before coming to the Local Loans Fund at all. That is why the amount which
  52
  appears in this Bill is substantially smaller than that contained in previous Bills.
  The only point I want to make to-day is that those who are looking at the Budget and considering how far the Government are making provision to meet all liabilities must not be deceived by the fact that the amount "below the line," so far as this is concerned, is less than it would have been under the old scheme. It is true that under another decision of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer an additional item relating to the nationalized industries is included "below the line." I should not like to go into that to-day, because that would be taking us away from the subject of this Bill; but what successive Chancellors of the Exchequer have done in the last calendar year is to exclude from the below-the-line figures the items relating to these local authorities who now go to the open market and to include the items from the nationalised industries. I do not know which way the balance would lie, but the fact must be realised that the presentation of the whole picture in the Budget, above and below the line has been greatly modified by this change, and in the future, it will be impossible to make any adequate comparison between the current year and previous years.
  It has always been my view that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not only responsible for the affairs of the State but is, in a sense, the finance Minister for the country as a whole, and, therefore, it is his business to see that the finances of the country are sufficient to provide for the financial needs of the country. Of course, that is the difficulty about this whole matter of inflation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is aware that that is a very necessary condition of stability in the British economy, and that where that stability does not exist there may well be inflation, with disastrous consequences. I welcome the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is providing larger surpluses of above-the-line figures, because that enables us more readily to meet our requirements. But that comes into the question of this Bill only because the change of the method of financing local authorities is important in considering whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is providing or not providing sufficient finances for the purpose.

  53
  That is all that I want to say about the Bill. In the main, the object of the Bill is one of which we all must approve. Where local authorities cannot get their funds from one source, we must provide the fund; and for a long time past that has been provided by successive Bills like this. So far as I am concerned, and I think that this would be the view of my colleagues on these Benches, the Bill has our support and we have no further desire to pursue any discussion of its merits.
  LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence for his remarks, which I think are incontestable. I think that this arrangement would enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to fulfil that task which he regards as his most important one. We believe that the "swopping over" of the nationalised industries for the local authorities will help us to avoid inflation.
  On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

  COAL INDUSTRY BILL.
  4.57 p.m
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

  UNDERGROUND WORKS (LONDON) BILL
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

  ROAD TRAFFIC BILL
  4.59 p.m.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to signify to the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Road Traffic Bill, has consented to place Her Majesty's interest, so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown, at the disposal of Parliament for the purpose of the Bill.
  On behalf of my noble friend Lord Selkirk, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
  Moved, that the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Earl of Munster.)
  On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
  Clause 4:
  Amendments as to speed limit in built-up areas
  (3) As respects any length of road in a built-up area to which this subsection apples subsection (1) of section one of the Act of 1934 shall have effect with the substitution for the limit of speed to be observed under that section of a limit of speed of forty miles per hour.
  (4) The last foregoing subsection shall apply to any length of road to which it is applied by a direction given by the authority having power to give as respects that length of road a direction that it shall be deemed not to he a road in a built-up area, but the giving, revocation or variation thereof shall be subject to the like provisions as the giving, revocation or variation by that authority of such a direction as is last mentioned.
  5.0 p.m.
  EARL OF SELKIRK EARL OF SELKIRK Moved to add to subsection (4):
  Provided that if at any time after the expiration of four years from the coming into operation of the last foregoing subsection each House of Parliament resolves that it is expedient that that subsection should have no further operation. Her Majesty may by Order in Council direct that the subsection shall cease to have effect."
  The noble Earl said: My Lords, in the course of the Report stage on the Bill we had some discussion on Clause 4, and, in particular, on the power of extending the 40 m.p.h. speed limit, in place of a 30 m.p.h. speed limit, to roads outside London which were not trunk roads; that is to say, we are dealing here only with

  55
  classified roads outside London. I then explained that this proposal really arose from recommendations made by the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, who had examined the possibility of a differential speed limit. Let me say straight away that it is quite clear that opinion is sharply divided, or at least varied, on this subject, and for the information of the House I should like to call attention to the varied opinions expressed by different organisations. The London County Council are in favour of a differential speed limit; the Association of County Councils are in favour; the Association of Municipal Corporations are against; the Institution of Municipal Engineers are in favour; the Road Research Laboratory are in favour; the British Transport Commission are in favour; the Transport and General Workers Union are against; the motoring organisations, as a whole, are against; the British Road Federation are against; the Cyclists Touring Club are against; the pedestrians are against; the Federation of British Industries are in favour; and the London Chamber of Commerce are against. That is a mixed bag.
  I believe that we have come to the right decision in deciding to try it as an experiment. I take it that the House is broadly agreed that we should try the experiment and see how it works. It is entirely with that in view that I have put down the Amendment. It seems to me that the Amendment indicates beyond peradventure that this extension in certain areas on classified roads outside London is of an experimental nature; that is to say, that after four years it will be open to either House of Parliament to pass a Resolution which will say that subsections (3) and (4) of this Clause shall no longer be applicable. I have said "four years," because I think it will take that time before we can give the experiment a sufficient run to be able to form any reliable conclusions. The experiment has to be set up, and it has to be run for a period, and then it will have to be statistically examined. I think that, short of a period of something like two years, it will not be possible for the Road Research Laboratory to evaluate the result in terms of traffic flow and safety. It will only be after that that the Depart-
  56
  mental Road Safety Committee will have the information on which to compile their report. Thereafter the report will be laid before Parliament, and will be considered.
  This is a difficult question, and I do not believe there is any theoretical solution to it. We must be pragmatical; we must try the experiment and see whether it works or not. We must take the decision with the information in front of us and not be in any way rash in doing it. I move this Amendment because it seems to me that it meets the opinion which the House expressed before. I would repeat that I believe we should make the experiment and see whether it works; and, if it does not, we can pass a Resolution, when it will cease to have effect. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 6, line 22, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, the noble Earl has rightly outlined our difficulties here. I should like to deal with the matter perhaps a little more fully, because upon further study of this problem I am rather swayed against this proposal. I would illustrate what the proposal is. The proposal is by the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee that there should be a differential speed limit, and that it should take place as an experiment in the London traffic area. The differential speed limit is this: that the speed limit should be varied from 30 m.p.h. to 40 m.p.h. on various stretches of road. If your Lordships have studied the map that is in the Report of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, you will have seen there clearly set out that one can travel along a 30 m.p.h. stretch. suddenly get into a 40 m.p.h. stretch, and then come back again into a 30 m.p.h. stretch. There is a substantial body of opinion—and I must confess that I hold the opinion, too—which feels that that is a highly dangerous procedure.
  During the course of this Bill I have had something to say, I am afraid at some length, on the question of penalties for breaches of the traffic laws. But all the way through the protracted discussion I had nothing to say about exceeding the speed limit, because my sympathies are very much with the poor, unfortunate road vehicle user who exceeds the speed limit. He has to watch the traffic; he

  57
  is inundated with signs of this, that and the other character; and he has a job to keep to the normal speed limit at the present tine because he cannot afford one split second to look at his speedometer. This is going to make confusion worse confounded. On the whole, I am against the proposal, although I did say—and I have not changed my mind about this—that we are in such straits over this matter that we should try the experiment. I agree with the noble Earl that the London area is the proper place to try the experiment. If your Lordships look again at this map, you will see that the London traffic area stretches from Bishops Stortford in the north to south of Dorking in the south; to Gravesend in the east and nearly to Berkhamstead and Eton in the west. There are all kinds of traffic and traffic conditicns in that area.
  I have an Amendment down similar to that of the noble Earl, but my Amendment differs from his in this regard. What Clause 4 (3) of the Bill does is to give every authority in this country outside London which now has the authority to apply for a 30 m.p.h. limit, the right to apply for a 40 m.p.h. limit. The Amendment of the noble Earl does not alter that, but my Amendment does. My Amendment says that before we go outside the London experimental area we should satisfy ourselves, by reference to the Ministerial Safety First Committee, whether the scheme is a good one or a thoroughly bad one, or that it wants revision. DO not apply this huge experiment to the whole of England, Scotland and Wales. If you do, what will you get? Perhaps half the local authorities who now have power to apply to the Minister for a 30 m.p.h. limit, and who under this Amendment will be able to apply for a 40 m.p.h. limit, will apply for the 40 m.p.h. limit, arid half may not apply. So you will get a differential speed limit, not only in some towns, but in some areas, and not in others. If there is one virtue of the 30 m.p.h. speed limit it is that it is universal and we all know where we are.
  My Amendment recommends that we should try the experiment—I do not mind for how long; that is in the wisdom of the Minister or his advisers—but that we should confine it to London. We should then refer the whole matter to the Safety First Committee—of which I have some
  58
  knowledge; I was chairman of it when I was Parliamentary Secretary—and then let the Minister come to Parliament and ask, if necessary with reservations, to apply it in any area of the country that the Minister so desires.
  I prefer my Amendment to the noble Earl's Amendment because, frankly, I believe that even if this is accepted in some kind of principle, there will be a lot of reservations. One big reservation which I feel certain will be made is that a differential speed limit is all very well when you go from 30 m.p.h. to 40 m.p.h. and then to unlimited speeds, but that there are innumerable places where you will go from 30 m.p.h. to 40 m.p.h., then drop back to 30 m.p.h., then to 40 m.p.h. again, and, finally, back again to 30 m.p.h. On some of these roads. it is going to be confusion worse confounded. I am with the noble Earl; I want an experiment; but. I want it confined to London. It is no good referring the matter back to the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, because they are the people who recommended it. The Safety First Committee are the best people. Then the Minister can come to Parliament and say, under the Statutory Instrument, "Will you now please put into operation these sections of this Act."
  May I say one final word? Nothing in this Bill altering the speed limit can ever be permanent unless the Minister so desires. Nothing in this Bill alters the Minister's power, under Section 1 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, to vary speed limits as he so desires. Therefore, at any time in future—in ten years' time—if the traffic conditions get sufficiently bad, the Minister will be able to bring the speed of traffic down from 40 m.p.h. to 30 m.p.h. The situation is not static. The only thing that I want to be static is that the experiment should be confined to London, and that is why I ask the noble Earl to withdraw his Amendment and accept mine. We are in some difficulty. We are on Third Reading and not Committee stage. On balance, I think that my Amendment meets the view of the House as expressed on the Report stage, when many of your Lordships had grave doubts about this clause but wanted the experiment. I feel that my Amendment meets their wishes better

  59
  than the Amendment of the noble Earl, and I therefore hope he will withdraw his Amendment.
  LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I should like to speak briefly in favour of the Amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, not yet moved, but which will no doubt be moved if the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, sees fit to withdraw this Amendment. The noble Earl quite rightly told your Lordships the difficulties found by the ad hoc committee of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee, and he gave your Lordships the differences of opinion that came out in evidence. I totalled up as best I could the differences in the evidence on pages 21 to 25 of the Report, and find that six of the people who gave evidence said they wanted a differential speed limit, and six said they did not. The interesting thing is this. Out of the six who were in favour of a differential speed limit, three wanted 45 m.p.h. and two wanted 40 m.p.h. One of those two said only, "say, 40 m.p.h."—he did not come down heavily one way or the other. I know that the motoring organisations, who are against the differential speed limit, would prefer, if they must have one. 45 m.p.h. One of the reasons is this. If you are passing a lorry on one of these roads with a limit of 40 m.p.h. as proposed in this Bill, the difference in speeds is only 10 m.p.h. If it is a long lorry, with a trailer, it will take you a long time to get by, and there is a long period of danger, which is one of the things we wish to avoid. Surely, if we are going to have a difference, it must be more than this small margin. I wish to go on record that I prefer the second Amendment to the first.
  LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this Amendment, but may I say that I agree with the noble Lord who has just spoken. I think this experiment is highly dangerous, particularly to drivers on passing. I regret that one is forced to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, that the stage has now arrived where one has to agree to the experiment. I also wish to go on record as saying that I greatly dislike this 40 m.p.h. limit, because I believe that it will lead to accidents. When I first read these two Amendments. I was
  60
  inclined to agree with the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, on the ground that his Amendment appeared, on the face of it, to be a definite experimental view of the matter. Since listening to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, I see that his Amendment has exactly the same effect: it makes the scheme entirely experimental. And of the two, I prefer his Amendment.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I am bound to say that this is not a matter I want to fight about. There are a number of points about the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, which I am bound to say I do not like. I do not like his drafting. It constitutes a precedent which I think may be unfortunate. What I dislike is that the Amendment is purely negative. We all agree about the experiment, and the noble Lord said, "Do not do it." I am bound to say that I think it is a pity to take that line I am perfectly prepared to give an undertaking that it will be done only in a limited number of places. I do not think the anxiety the noble Lord has about local authorities suddenly wishing to change all their 30 m.p.h. limits to 40 m.p.h. has any foundation whatsoever. None the less, if the House feels that they prefer the noble Lord's Amendment I will not stand in their way, and I will ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, and, in due course, accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, after subsection (4) to insert:
  (" (5) The provisions of subsections (3) and (4) of this section shall not take effect until an order by statutory instrument appointing a day for such subsections to come into operation has been approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament:
  Provided that no such order shall be made before the Minister has reported to each House of Parliament the views of the Departmental Road Safety Committee on the results of the experimental introduction of a 40 m.p.h. speed limit in the London Traffic Area.")
  The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl. This is a difficult position in which we find ourselves, and not least the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. He has grave doubts about the wisdom of this proposal. But when we are confronted with the seriousness of this road traffic congestion problem, and its contribution to accidents, we are almost

  61
  forced to the conclusion: Let us try anything as an experiment to see whether it will do something. I am in complete agreement with the noble Lords, Lord Derwent and Lord Waleran. Some of these stretches of road where it is possible to have only a 40 m.p.h. limit will not be long enough to permit motorists to pass some of these abnormal loads we see on the roads. If your Lordships study this map, you will see that some of them will be a death trap. However, I will not say any more. I am grateful to the noble Earl for saying that he will accept my Amendment. I do not agree with what he said about the drafting of my Amendment. I think it is very good drafting., and one clay I will tell him who drafted it, although I will not do that to-day. I beg leave to move the Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 6, line 22, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I think it is proper for me to say this. These new clauses have not been before the other place. Of course, we have differences of opinion here, and there may well be differences of opinion there. Therefore, I cannot commit the Minister to, shall I say, fighting to the last ditch for the words of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth. I must leave the Minister quite free, when our Amendments ale considered, to make other suggestions. Subject to that, I am perfectly willing that this Amendment should be accepted.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 19 [Provision of parking places where charges made]:
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 19. line 37, leave out ("the last foregoing subsection") and insert ("subsection (7) or (8) of this section").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 22 [Offences relating to parking places]:
  5.21 p.m.
  The EARL OF SELKIRK The EARL OF SELKIRK moved, after subsection (1) to insert:
  "(2) In relation to an offence under paragraph (a) of the last foregoing subsection of leaving a vehicle for longer after the excess
  62
  charge has been incurred than the time prescribed under subsection (5) of the last foregoing section, or failing duly to pay any charge payable under section nineteen of this Act, the reference in the said paragraph (a) to the driver of a vehicle shall be construed as references to the person driving the vehicle at the time it was left in the parking place."
  The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is little more than drafting but, because I shall be referring to it later, perhaps I may explain exactly what we are doing here. We are now dealing with parking, and the purpose of this Amendment is to make it perfectly clear that, in the event of an offence being committed—that is to say, the initial charge or the excess charge which may be due not having been paid—the person who is liable is the person who drove the car into the parking place and left it. Neither the owner nor the person who may subsequently come along and pick up the car is liable. This Amendment does no more than make that point abundantly clear. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 24, line 10, at end insert the said subsection.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, would the noble Earl mind explaining to the House what he means by saying that the person w ho drives the car on to a parking place will be responsible for the payment of any excess charge? He will not know that an excess charge is payable until the car has been on the parking place. A different person comes to collect it. What happens? How does one trace the first person? I do not know how that is to be done. He may have gone. If the second person says, "I want to collect the car," does the car park attendant, who we now know will be armed with the authority of the police, say, "You cannot do that"? If the man says, "But it is my car; you cannot hold my property," what happens? It is all very well to say that the person who drives the car on to the car park is liable for the costs of the excess charge after it has been incurred. What will happen? Could the noble Earl tell us?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, it is really quite a simple point. We had one decision to make when we decided to try this experiment, and it was this: Who was to be responsible for any offence committed on a designated

  63
  parking area? There are two possible lines. We could either make the owner responsible for any offences which, so to speak, his car commits, or we could make the driver responsible. We have come down in favour of the driver. The driver, whoever he may be, who puts the car into the parking place is responsible for any offences which the presence of that car may subsequently, shall I say, commit. He personally will be liable.
  The complement to that is that the owner should be responsible, and he is made liable, as the noble Lord will remember, by a later paragraph to inform the local authority who the driver was. That is a point we shall be coming to later when we examine Clause 32. If the noble Lord will look at Clause 32 for one moment, he will see that the powers, very limited powers, are given not to the police. I would repeat, but to the local authority. The local authority have the power only of asking the owner who the driver of the car was. They have no power to stop the car from being driven away: no power to ask for a licence. They have no powers to do any of those things except to ask the owner, if he was not the driver. who was the driver. The noble Lord will recognise at once that, if you do not make the owner himself responsible. there is only one other way of doing it, and that is to give the local authority power to force the owner to say who was driving the car. That is the procedure and I do not think it should cause any dispute.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I can speak again only by leave of the House. The great difficulty—I found that we could not have the Bill recommitted to argue some of these points—is this. I would recommend the noble Earl to consider seriously making the owner responsible, right the way through the Bill. I could mention many cases where the man who went to collect the car would not know who the first driver was. There is only one certain way of finding out who owns that car, and that is for the car park attendant to take the number of the motor car and let the local authority then get in touch with the owner. I do not think you can hold the man who comes to the car park to drive the car away responsible for payment. The owner is responsible, and one can only assume that
  64
  anyone else who drives the car is the servant of the owner. May I make that suggestion to the noble Earl for consideration when the Bill gets to another place?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I do not think the noble Lord is making a very good point, because in no circumstances should anyone drive a car except with the permission of the owner. Very well. It is not the person who comes on to the parking place and takes the car away who is asked; it is the owner who is asked who was driving the car. If the noble Lord considers that a little longer, he will realise that that is, in fact, the most logical and sensible way of doing it. If there is any extra payment to be made, the person who is by law responsible is the person who drives the car on to the parking place—presumably, with the owner's permission. We have given a great deal of thought to this matter, and I think that is the right decision. I believe that, if the noble Lord will give the matter a little more thought. he will realise that that is probably correct.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 23 [Parking places: financial provisions]:
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 25, line 27, at beginning insert ("In this section the expression").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this Amendment is moved to meet the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, in regard to the designation of parking areas. I should like the noble Lord, to be quite clear, to note the effect of the Amendment. It may be making the procedure rather too laborious, but we are anxious that there should be as wide a measure of agreement as possible on the institution of parking meters. If the noble Lord will look, he will see that there are really now two stages in the process of setting up parking meters. The first will be in the form of an Affirmative Resolution, which I should explain will be of an entirely simple character: it will merely say there will, or may be, parking meters in, say,

  65
  Birmingham. That will be the first stage. Thereafter, there will be a second stage where a proposal, giving the full details of how the parking meters are to be laid out in Birmingham, will be subject to a Negative Resolution. That is the effect of this Amendment. As I say, it is pretty laborious. but the House felt that it wanted it, and we have put it in. I beg to move.
  Amendment. moved—
  Page 25, line 42, after ("instrument") insert—
  (" (4) An order under subsection (7) or (8) of section nineteen of this Act shall not have effect unless approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.
  (5) A statutory instrument embodying any order under the provisions of this Act relating to parking places other than subsections (7) and (8) of section nineteen of this Act shall be").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl for this Amendment. I agree with him that it may be a little laborious, but I think that it will satisfy everybody, in that there will be a right to raise any point at any stage in regard to the designation of parking places. The noble Earl has met the wishes of the House and I am grateful to him for so doing.
  LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I should like to add my thanks to the noble Earl for his Amendment, which I think meets a great many of the points which I raised on the Committee stage.
  On Question. Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 26 [Penalties and disqualifications]:
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 27, line 32, at end insert ("committed in respect of motor vehicles").—(The Earl of Selkirk)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 32 [Extension of s.. 113 (3) of Act of 1930]:
  5.31 p.m.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved in subsection (1), after the penultimate "or" to insert "in writing". The noble Earl said: My Lords, I really dealt with this Amendment when dealing with Amendment No. 4, but your Lordships may
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  recollect that I was asked exactly what the power of the local authority would be to ask questions of the owner. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, was most indignant that any parking attendant should ever ask for his name and address. I do not think it is offensive to ask anybody his name and address. None the less, I have made it abundantly clear here that the request to the owner from the local authority will be made only in writing. In the ordinary course of events, it will mean that if someone has perhaps infringed a parking regulation or, it may be, owes an excess charge, he will receive a letter asking who was the driver. In the normal case I think the owner will reply and say who was driving the car, if he was not himself doing so. If he does not do that, it is true that he will probably be visited by somebody with a letter, asking for this information, and he will be obliged to give it. I am certain that that is the only way in which it can be done.
  I should like to confirm that what I said about the limitations imposed by the clause as drawn was correct. None the less, to make it quite clear, I have added the words which your Lordships see in this Amendment—namely, "in writing". May I again make it clear that this power does not give the right to the representatives of the local authority to ask for driving licences, insurances, or any other information? They may not hold up cars, they may not stop people.. nor may they assume any of the normal police powers at all. I hope that your Lordships will agree that this is a satisfactory way of dealing with the matter. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 30, line 24, after the second ("or") insert (", in writing,").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I do not think that the noble Earl could have gone any further to meet the wishes of the House in this regard, and again I am grateful to him.
  On Question. Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 33 [Amendment of s. 46 of Act of 1930]:
  33.—(1) The powers conferred by subsection (2) of section forty-six of the Act of 1930 (which authorises the making of orders regulating traffic on roads) shall be exercisable as

  67
  respects any road where it appears to the council or Minister exercising the power that it is expedient so to do—

  (a) for avoiding danger to persons or other traffic using the road or any other road, or

  (3) An order made in the exercise of the said powers by any council to which the said section forty-six applies which contains no provision other than provision—

  (a) prohibiting or restricting the waiting of vehicles or the loading and unloading of vehicles, or

  (b) prohibiting or restricting the use of footpaths or bridleways by bicycles and tricycles, or

  (c) revoking or varying any such prohibition or restriction,

  shall not require confirmation by the Minister, and the Minister shall not have power to revoke or vary any such prohibition or restriction contained in an order made by or on the application of any such council:
  5.36 p.m.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK THE EARL OF SELKIRK moved, in subsection (3), to leave out paragraph (a) and insert:
  (" (a) imposing any such requirement, prohibition or restriction as is specified in paragraph (a). (b) or (c) of the last foregoing subsection, or ").
  The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is quite an important redrafting of Clause 33. A number of noble Lords—Lord Derwent, Lord Waleran, and, I think, Lord Teynham—expressed anxiety whether in this clause we were not giving the local authorities rather too free a hand without requiring the confirmation of the Minister. Accordingly, we have redrafted the clause. Your Lordships will recollect that subsection (3), by paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), lays down those actions which the local authority can take without requiring the Minister's confirmation. We have done two things. We have slightly extended the actions or powers of the local authorities by giving them a power to decide on one-way traffic. We have added that to the power to make orders prohibiting or restricting the waiting of vehicles, and to prohibit or restrict the use of footpaths by bicycles and tricycles, and to revoke or vary any such resolution. That is to say, we have increased slightly the power of the local authorities. At the same time, your Lordships will see in Amendment No. 12, that the Minister is to have the power of revoking or varying or amending these regulations. But his revocation will, or may, so to speak, last only for
  68
  twelve months, at the end of which time the local authority in its turn can, if it is so minded, pass another resolution which. I presume, would cut across the Minister's resolution. I am not suggesting that that would happen, but that is the effect of it.
  The Minister's approach to this matter is that he will assume that the decision of the local authority is right until the contrary is proved, or shown to his satisfaction. He will accordingly, after the local authorities have decided on the regulations which they wish to impose, give them a reasonable and full trial before interfering himself, if he decides to do so. or if evidence is brought to him that they do not work or are unsatisfactory. I think that is the right way of doing it. It is pushing more responsibility on to local authorities, but I think it is the right approach to make.
  There is one other point I may make in regard to this matter—it is one which was raised, I think, by the noble Lord. Lord Colville of Culross—and that is in regard to the significance of subsection (4) of Clause 33. It comes into what I have just been saying, and I think it is fair to put it in this way. The considerations upon which the Minister will revoke or vary regulations laid down by the local authority will never be those in subsection (4), because if any of the limitations in subsection (4) are overstepped then it is not a question of revoking or varying the regulations the regulations will be invalid—they will be ultra vires. Therefore it is only regulations which fall within the ambit of subsection (4) to which the Minister can conceivably give his attention. If I may give an example in regard to the question of restriction of loading hours, the Minister will never consider the question of loading hours which are restricted beyond six hours, because that would be invalid: but he may very well say that restrictions exceeding two. three or four hours in this particular case are excessive. So that the provisions regarding six hours, which your Lordships will see in subsection (4) (c). have no relevance at all to the question or the circumstances in which the Minister may review regulations made under subsection (3) of this clause. The matter is a little complicated, but I have tried to make it as clear as I can. If there are any questions, I will endeavour to answer them. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 31, line 36, leave out paragraph (a) and insert the said new paragraph.—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, may I ask a question for clarification? Did I understand the noble Earl to say that the Minister will not revoke or vary or amend an order by a local authority until after it has been on trial?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: That is the general idea.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: So he cannot amend it?
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: He can, but he does not propose to.
  LORD TEYNHAM: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl for this Amendment, which I think goes a long way towards providing the safeguard for which I asked during the Committee stage of the Bill. In regard to these Amendments, I am not quite clear where the Minister obtains the power to revoke, vary or amend an order made by a local authority. It may be that these powers are in the Road Traffic Act, 1930. I should be grateful if I could have clarification on that point. Then, I am not quite clear on this point—it may be that I did not quite understand what the Minister said. It seems to me that there is a limiting effect in subsection (4) (c) upon either a public inquiry into the exercise of powers by a local authority or upon the Minister's right to revoke, vary or amend an order. It would seem to me that a court of law might interpret subsection (4) (c) as an absolute authority to a local council to ban loading and unloading of goods for a maximum period of six hours for consecutive periods of twenty-four hours. If this were so, then there would be no power either for the inquiry to take into account objections to such a period of ban, or for the Minister to have regard to such objections when deciding whether to revoke, vary or amend an order already made. Perhaps the noble Earl would clarify that point for me.
  5.40 p.m.
  LORD BURDEN: My Lords, I should like to understand this matter a little more clearly and to have some further information from the Minister. I have no doubt that the Amendments which are
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  proposed are an attempt to meet in a compromise manner the objections which were raised to this clause when it was previously under discussion. But may I recall for a moment the fact that the object of this clause and other clauses was to save manpower, as recommended by the Manpower Committee. This and other clauses have been discussed with the local authorities' associations and agreement has been arrived at on these clauses. I readily agree that Parliament must have the last word, notwithstanding agreements arrived at in the preliminary stages. but it is a little unfortunate that such changes as these should be made at this late stage.
  May I ask the Minister how he will obtain information in regard to these orders? Is it his intention to review all the orders made by local authorities, or will he act one way or the other when objection is received to an order made by a local authority? As I understand the position, the local authorities will work within the ambit of regulations to be issued subsequently by the Minister. I am looking now at column 1177 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for July 17 [Vol. 198]. The noble Lord, Lord Derwent. said:
  "There arc three matters about which, if there is no right of appeal to the Minister. the Minister ought to make certain when he authorises the local authority to exercise their powers. The three things are: that before the local authority make any order there shall be Very detailed publication of that order in the local Press, and perhaps the London Gazette,. to give it a wider circulation; secondly, that it should be easy to make objections; and, thirdly. that if there ate any serious objections, the local authority will hold a local public inquiry. With that, of course, the Minister can see what is happening. and without doing anything himself he will be in a position to know whether or not he wants to interfere."
  The noble Earl replied:
  "I am very happy to give the assurance that the regulations will contain all those points."
  Am I to understand that the machinery of a local inquiry may be short-circuited and any person or persons who feel themselves aggrieved can step in and appeal direct to the Minister? There are two points. First, will the Minister himself review all those orders made by local authorities? If that actually is to be the position, then the saving as recommended by the Manpower Committee will be very trifling: in fact, there will perhaps be more work rather than less work. Secondly, will the Minister

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  act irrespective of the machinery as laid down in the regulations, as promised in the reply to the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, or only after all that machinery has been complied with and somebody still feels aggrieved?
  LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I will not deprive the noble Earl of the pleasure of answering the noble Lord, Lord Burden, although I think I know the answer. There is one point that arises out of the same question. I understood the noble Earl to say that the Minister was not going to interfere (this is the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth) until the scheme had been tried out. But if something appears in the public local inquiry that is obviously objectionable, and the local authority still persists in its scheme, will the Minister then—I suppose he will, but I should like the assurance—retain the right to interfere before the scheme comes into force? It is not likely to happen in many cases, but I hope the Minister will, in fact, retain that power.
  VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, on the question of subsection (4) I am most grateful to the noble Earl for his categoric assurance. I think this is a point of some importance and it has caused a great deal of worry, but if the explanation is as the noble Earl has put it, I think it will do a lot to allay the queries that have arisen on this subject, and I am most grateful.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I should like to try and answer the questions which have been raised. The noble Lord, Lord Burden, is, of course, right, in the sense that it is a compromise solution. It is not, and it never was, an agreed clause. I must put it quite plainly. There are opposing interests here. The local authorities want more power, and I have to say that it has been quite clearly expressed in this House that there are people who do not trust local authorities to manage traffic problems. We are, in a sense, between two difficulties: we are anxious to push it out to the local authorities, and yet we have to recognise that there are certain people who are interested in traffic and who are a little suspicious how that power will be used. What we have done in this Amendment is to give the local authorities a little more power—I mentioned one-way traffic, a matter
  72
  which was not included before—and at the same time to retain a little more power to the Minister to review matters as they come up.
  The noble Lord, Lord Derwent. asked what would happen if, in the course of an inquiry, objections were raised which were clearly of a sort which would require some intervention by the Minister. I would rather leave a contingent question of that sort until it arises. The Minister has the power, certainty, but as I have said before, he does not intend to use that power until the scheme put forward by the local authority has had a good run: in other words. until it is clear whether it works or not. That is the compromise he would use.
  The noble Lord, Lord Burden, asked two questions in particular: first, whether the Minister would review all cases—I think I have made it clear he will not do that—and secondly, whether the Minister will act before the machinery. Again, I think I have made it clear he will not act before the machinery is put into operation. The idea is that full inquiry will be conducted by the local authority, and we hope that the local authority will have at the back of their minds the thought: "We do not want our regulations overturned. Perhaps we had better check up that we are not doing something the Minister thinks is wrong." In other words, I hope it will encourage them to make wise and proper regulations. In regard to information, I think that that is not a matter which the noble Lord need worry about. There will be plenty of information coming into the department. We hoped there would be less. There will also be no question of short circuiting the inquiry as it stands.
  Lord Teynham raised the point whether or not paragraph (4) (c), the restrictive period of six hours, was something which the inquiry could not take cognisance of; in other words, so long as it was not more than six hours the inquiry could not find against it. That is quite untrue. The six hours is purely a limitation of which the courts can take cognisance and would take cognisance if objected to, declaring the regulation invalid. Anything longer than six hours is automatically invalid. Any inquiry must necessarily be regarding some shorter period than six hours. Coupled with the provisions of the 1930 Act, any provision must

  73
  provide for reasonable access. If there is not reasonable access, the regulation is invalid. That point is slightly more restricted here. The provision will not be automatically invalid if it is restricted to six hours. I do not know whether that is clear. If it is more than six hours it is automatically invalid. But it has no effect, of course, on the inquiry as such.
  The noble Lord asked how it was that the Minister had the power to do what he is doing. The power lies under Section 46 (3) of the Road Traffic Act, 1930,
  "The Minister may at any time after giving notice to the council on Whose application an order under this section, or an order under the corresponding provision of any enactment repealed by this Act, was made, and after holding if he thinks fit a public inquiry, revoke vary or amend the order."
  I hope that answers the question.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I should like to express my gratitude to the noble Earl. He has had a very difficult job with this clause. It has had to be a compromise because there was definitely a conflict of opinion. I think that in the circumstances he has made as good a job of this as possible. Even the Minister of Transport cannot always be wise before the event. If it turns out that this should require amendment, I have no doubt that the Minister has powers by regulation to amend it. I support the clause as it is written.
  On Question. Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, the next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 31, line 40, after ("such") insert ("requirement").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this Amendment, too, is consequential. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 31, line 41, leave out from the first ("Minister") to end of lire 44 and insert (" except where the next following subsection has effect:")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question. Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 32, line 8, at end insert—
  (" (4) Where the Minister revokes, varies or amends an order made by virtue of the last foregoing subsection relating to any length of road, any order imposing or varying, as respects that length of road, any such requirement. prohibition or restriction as is specified in that subsection and made within twelve months after the revocation, variation or amendment by the Minister shall be subject to confirmation by the Minister to the like extent as if the last foregoing subsection had not been passed.")—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question. Amendment agreed to.
  5.53 p.m.
  LORD MANCROFT LORD MANCROFT moved, after Clause 41 to insert the following new clause:
  Protective helmets for motor cyclists
  "42.—(1) The Minister may make regulations prescribing (by reference to shape, construction or any other quality) types of helmet recommended as affording protection to persons on or in motor cycles, or motor cycles of different classes or descriptions from injury in the event of accident.
  (2) If any person sells, or offers for sale, any helmets, as a helmet for affording protection as aforesaid, and the helmet is neither—

  (a) of a type prescribed under this section. nor

  (b) of a type authorised under regulations made under this section and sold or offered for sale subject to any conditions specified in the authorisation,

  he shall be liable on summary conviction in the case of a first offence to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, or in the case of a second or subsequent offence to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment. for a term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment:
  Provided that a person not be convicted of an offence under this section in respect of the sale or offer for sale of a helmet if he proves that it was sold or. as the case may be, offered for sale for export from Great Britain.
  (3) In England or Wales the council of a county, of a borough or of an urban district or the Common Council of the City of London may institute proceedings For an offence under this section.
  (4) The provisions of the Schedule (Supplementary provisions in connection with proceedings for offences under section (Protective helmets for motor-cyclists)) shall have effect in relation to contraventions of this section.
  (5) In this section in the said Schedule the expression ' helmet ' includes tiny head-dress, and references in this section to selling or offering for sale include respectively references to letting on hire and offering to let on hire.
  (6) The power to make regulations conferred by this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution by either House of Parliament."
  The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that at the Report stage of the Bill Lord Lucas of Chilworth moved an Amendment designed to protect motor cyclists, and, equally important, their pillion riders, against the ill-effects which might follow from wearing shoddy crash helmets. That, in ordinary language, is what the noble Lord was trying to do; and what he was trying to do met with widespread approval among your Lordships. All that we did not quite approve of was the draftsmanship of the noble Lord's Amendment. The noble Lord, I feel, need not reproach himself, for he will see that the Government Amendment which has been put down in order to meet the obligation which I undertook in answering the noble Lord after he had moved his Amendment is fairly long and fairly complicated. I think the noble Lord will agree that it does everything which he sought to do, and perhaps a little more.
  This Amendment deals with this problem by empowering the Minister to prescribe by regulations types of helmet:
  "recommended as affording protection to persons on or in motor cycles, or motor cycles of different classes or descriptions. from injury in the event of accident."
  The Amendment makes it an offence for any person to sell or offer for sale any helmet as a helmet affording such protection when the helmet is not of a type prescribed by the Minister. Your Lordships will note that neither in this clause nor in the Amendment is there anything which is intended to make the wearing of these crash helmets compulsory. That is quite a different matter. The Amendment is complicated for technical reasons into which I need not go. I repeat that I am sure it achieves the object which Lord Lucas of Chilworth sought to achieve, and I hope that it meets with his approval. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 41 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Mancroft.)
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord. Lord Mancroft. As he has rightly said this meets my point "plus"—if I may use that expression. I must say that my drafting had one great virtue. My Amendment was one-thirtieth of the length of the present Amendment put
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  forward by the Government, if I include that in the Schedule which goes with this clause. Perhaps I may also say that never in the history of Parliamentary draftsmanship have so many words been used to accomplish so little. But that does not detract from my gratitude to the noble Lord for accepting the principle of the Amendment.
  LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I should just like to say a few words in support of what Lord Lucas of Chilworth has just said. I am sure that this Amendment will prove of great benefit to the young motor cyclist and to his pillion rider. It seems to me that it will also save a certain amount of work for the doctors and hospitals to whom, in many cases, these young people are taken with serious injuries. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, for the Amendment.
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. Lord Lucas of Chilworth, for his acceptance of this Amendment and to Lord Amulree for what he 'has just said. The trouble with all such Amendments as this is that it is difficult to draft any short Amendment and make it watertight. I realise that this is a very fulsome Amendment, but I hope that it fulfils its purpose adequately. A simpler method perhaps would have been to use some such words as:
  "shall approximate to standards laid down in British Standards Number 2001 …"
  or whatever it might be. There are, however, several technical reasons why we could not do that.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 45 [Amendments as to pedestrian crossings]:
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords. this Amendment is a necessary editorial correction. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 45, line 5. leave out ("commencement of this Act") and insert ("coming into operation of this section").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 53 [Interpretation]:
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, this Amendment is moved only for purposes of clarification. It merely defines what a motor cycle is in legal terms as we

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  have now incorporated the expression "motor cycles" into the present Bill. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 49, line 2, at end insert (" ' motor cycle' has the same meaning as in the Act of 1930, and paragraph (c) of subsection (4) of section two of !hat Act (which relates to side cars) shall apply for the purposes of this Act as it applies for the purposes of Part I of that Act; ").—(Lord Mancroft.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Third Schedule [Procedure for orders designating parking places]:
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 52, line 19. leave out ("order applied for") and insert (" proposed order").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question. Amendment agreed to.
  Fourth Schedule [Offences in respect of which disqualification or endorsement may be ordered]:
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this Amendment also is drafting. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 54, line 30. after the second ("or") insert ("any offence under").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, the next Amendment is also drafting. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 54, line 32, at end insert (" committed in respect of a motor vehicle").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  LORD MANCROFT LORD MANCROFT moved, after the Sixth Schedule to insert the following new Schedule:

  SEVENTH SCHEDULE
  SUPPLEMENTARY PROVISIONS IN CONNECTION WITH PROCEEDINGS FOR OFFENCES UNDER SECTION (PROTECTIVE HELMETS FOR MOTOR CYCLISTS)
  1.—(1) A person against whom proceedings are brought in England or Wales for an offence under section (Protective helmets for motorcyclists) of this Act (hereinafter referred to as "the principal section") shall, upon information duly laid by him and on giving to the prosecution not less than three clear days' notice of his intention, be entitled to have any person to whose act or default be alleges that
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  the contravention of that section was due brought before the court in the proceedings; and if. after the contravention has been proved. the original accused proves that the contravention was due to the act or default of that other person, that other person may be convicted of the offence, and, if the original accused further proves that he has used all due diligence to secure that that section was, complied with, he shall be acquitted of the offence.
  (2) Where an accused seeks to avail himself. of the provisions of the last foregoing subparagraph—

  (a) the prosecution, as well as the person whom the accused charges with the offence. shall have the right to cross-examine him, it he gives evidence, and any witness called by him in support of his pleas, and call rebutting evidence;

  (b) the court may make such order as it thinks fit for the payment of costs by any parry to the proceedings to any other party thereto.

  (3) Where it appears that an offence under the principal section has been committed in respect of which proceedings might be taken in England or Wales against some person (hereinafter referred to as "the original offender"), and a person proposing to take proceedings in respect of the offence is reasonably satisfied that the offence of which complaint is made was due to an act or default of some other person, being an act or default which took place in England or Wales, and that the original offender could establish a defence under sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph, the proceedings may be taken against that other person without proceedings first being taken against the original offender.
  In any such proceedings the accused may be charged with, and on proof that the contravention was due to his act or default, be convicted of, the offence with which the original offender might have been charged.
  2.—(1) Where proceedings are brought in England or Wales against any person (hereafter in this paragraph referred to as "the accused") in respect of a contravention of the principal section, and it is proved—,

  (a) that the contravention was due to the act or default of some other person, being an act or default which took place in Scotland, and

  (b) that the accused used all due diligence to secure compliance with that section, the accused shall, subject to the provisions of this section, be acquitted of the offence.

  (2) The accused shall not be entitled to be acquitted under this paragraph unless within seven days from the date of the service of the summons on him he has given notice in writing to the prosecution of his intention to rely upon the provisions of this paragraph, specifying the name and address of the person to whose act or default he alleges that the contravention was due, and has sent a like notice to that person.
  (3) The person specified in a notice served under this paragraph shall be entitled to appear at the hearing and to give evidence.

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  and the court may. if it thinks fit, adjourn the hearing to enable him to do so.
  (4) Where it is proved that the contravention of the principal section was due to the act or default of some person other than the accused, being an act or default which took place in Scotland, the court shall (whether or not the accused is acquitted) cause notice of the proceedings to be sent to the Minister.
  3.—(1) Where a contravention of the principal section committed by any person in Scotland was due to an act or default of any other person, being an act or default which took place in Scotland, then, whether proceedings are or are not taken against the first-mentioned person that other person may be charged with and convicted of the contravention and shall be liable on conviction to the same punishment as might have been inflicted on the first-mentioned person if he had been convicted of the contravention.
  (2) Where a person who is charged in Scotland with a contravention of the principal section proves to the satisfaction of the court that he has used all due diligence to secure that the provision in question was complied with and that the contravention was due to the act or default of some other person, the first-mentioned person shall be acquitted of the contravention.
  4.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph. in any proceedings (whether in England or Wales or Scotland) for an offence under the principal section, it shall be a defence for the accused to prove—

  (a) that he purchased the helmet in question as being of a type which under the principal section could be lawfully sold or offered for sale, and with a written warranty to that effect, and

  (b) that he had no reason to believe at the time of the commission of the alleged offence that it was not of such a type, and

  (c) that it was then in the same state as when he purchased it.

  (2) A warranty shall only be a defence in any such proceedings if—

  (a) the accused—

  (i) has, not later than three clear days before the date of the hearing, sent to the prosecutor a copy of the warranty with a notice stating that he intends to rely on it and specifying the name and address of the person from whom he received it. and

  (ii) has also sent a like notice of his intention to that person, and

  (b) in the case of a warranty given by a person resident outside the United Kingdom, the accused proves that he had taken reasonable steps to ascertain, and did in fact believe in, the accuracy of the statement contained therein.

  (3) Where the accused is a servant of the person who purchased the helmet in question under a warranty, he shall be entitled to rely on the provisions of this section in the same way as his employer would have been entitled to do if he had been the accused.
  (4) The person by whom the warranty is alleged to have been given shall be entitled to appear at the hearing and to give evidence. and the court may, if it thinks fit, adjourn the hearing to enable him to do so.
  5.—(1) An accused who in any proceedings for an offence under the principal section wilfully applies to any helmet a warranty not given in relation to that helmet shall be guilty of an offence.
  (2) A person who, in respect of any helmet sold by him, being a helmet in respect of which a warranty might be pleaded under the last foregoing paragraph, gives to the purchaser a false warranty in writing, shall be guilty of an offence, unless he proves that when he gave the warranty he had reason to believe that the statements or description contained therein were accurate.
  (3) Any person guilty of an offence under this paragraph shall be liable on summary conviction to the like penalties as under the principal section.
  (4) Where the accused in a prosecution for an offence under the principal section relies successfully on a warranty given to him or to his employer, any proceedings under subparagraph (2) of this paragraph in respect of the warranty may, at the option of the prosecutor, be taken either before a court having jurisdiction in the place where the helmet, or any of the helmets, to which the warranty relates was procured, or before a court having jurisdiction in the place where the warranty was given."
  The noble Lord said: My Lords, this again I am afraid is an extremely long and complicated Amendment to achieve quite a simple thought. What it does is to provide a defence to an innocent seller who has sold a helmet as affording protection to a motor cyclist from injury when the helmet was not of the prescribed type although it was supplied to the seller by a wholesaler as being of the prescribed type. This is the way, apparently, in which we have to do that. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  After the Sixth Schedule insert the said new Schedule.—(Lord Mancroft.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Seventh Schedule [Minor and consequential amendments]:
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 65, line 36, leave out ("of") and insert ("as to").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, this Amendment, too, is drafting. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 68, line 41, at end insert ("being an offence committed in respect of a motor vehicle").—(The Earl of Selkirk.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  5.58 p.m.
  THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, before moving that the Bill do now pass may I make one correction in what I said with regard to Clause 33 when we were discussing an Amendment to subsection (3) (a). I think that what I said possibly went a little too far in regard to the question of six hours and subsection (3) (c). The effect of that is this. It is probably not true to say that if it goes over six hours it is automatically invalid. What is true is that the ban would not arise if it were under six hours. On the other hand, if it were over six hours it would he valid or invalid, acording to whether or not it prevented what the court thought was a reasonable access. I think that is stating the position more accurately.
  My Lords, I think it is fair to say that probably very few Bills in recent times have been examined as exhaustively and thoroughly as this has been. It has been twice through your Lordships' House and one and a half times through the other place. As a matter of statistics, in the course of the Committee, Report and Third Reading stages 260 Amendments have been on the Order Paper and have been examined. Of these we have accepted rather more than half—to be precise, 146; and of these, 33 have been of substance and 113 consequential and drafting. Of the 33 substantial Amendments, over one-third have been moved by noble Lords other than from this Bench. I allocate one each to Lord Howe. Lord Gifford, Lord Waleran and Lord Colville of Culross. I share one between the noble Lords, Lord Dement and Lord Teynham, and two go to the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, and five to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth. We started the Bill twenty months ago with twenty-four clauses and three Schedules. The Bill now has fifty-five clauses and nine Schedules.
  If I may, I would shortly outline what we have done in this House. On the controversial question of testing, we have undertaken to produce a White Paper on the first two clauses dealing with this question. We have extended police powers; we have defined the offences to
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  which disqualification applies; we have introduced a 40 m.p.h. limit on an experimental basis; we have provided special controls for footpaths and bridle-paths for motor bicycle trials; we have imposed control of cycle racing on public roads; we have made provision for further consideration of the interests of frontagers in areas designated for parking meters; we have established a completely new code for traffic regulations outside London; we have altered the rules for lighting-up time; and we have taken powers to require the British Standard Institution specification No. 2001 to be used for the manufacture of crash helmets.
  As has been said more than once. this is an enabling Bill. The Department are fully aware that a substantial task lies ahead if we are to make the best use of the opportunity given by this Bill. The Bill strengthens discipline on the roads. I think it fair to recognise that if any improvement in the general parking problem is to come from parking meters there will have to be greater enforcement of the law. I think that that is something that we should recognise, as the police already do. We have sought to maintain that happy relationship which has always existed, and which we hope will continue to exist, between the police and the general public. Much of the Bill is of an experimental character, whether it be for the testing of cars, speed limits, parking meters or traffic regulations. But while we recognise that these things are experimental, I am sure it is right that we should experiment: and we should be very much open to criticism if we did not do so.
  In conclusion, I should like to thank all noble Lords who have taken an active part in our discussions. We welcome their criticism, even if we have not always been able to meet their points. I am glad to welcome the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, to our discussions and I express my admiration of the resolution and determination with which the noble Lord. Lord Conesford, has pursued the objects which he has so long held dear to his heart. I should particularly like to thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for the manner in which he has made us defend the Bill clause by clause. I am only sorry that we have not been able to meet as many of the points he raised as we did last time. I should also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of

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  Chilworth, for the immense assiduity with which he has examined the problems of transport. He brings to them a great deal of personal experience which I know is of the greatest value to the House. I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
  Moved, That the Bill do now pass.— (The Earl of Selkirk.)
  6.6 p.m.
  LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, whatever opinion we may have regarding the merits of this Bill, no noble Lord in any part of the House can have two opinions about the skill, the courtesy and, in some cases, when he has had to cover up the complete lack of any policy on the part of the Government, the artistry of the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. We are deeply indebted to him. He has worked hard to pilot this Bill through your Lordships' House. For those concessions which he has given us, sometimes like crumbs that have fallen from the rich man's table, making some of us feel like Lazarus at the table of Dives, we arc very grateful. He has done his job with remarkable skill and it is always pleasing to see a workmanlike performance, no matter in which part of the House a noble Lord may sit. In that respectful tribute I cannot omit the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, who has done the House great service in the manner in which he dealt with those questions that came within his scope. I shall have a word to say in a minute about the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor.
  As regards the Bill, in some respects I think it is about the worst Bill I have ever seen. The noble Earl has rightly said that it is an enabling Bill. The battles on many things have yet to come. Whatever we have managed to do in our protracted discussions is nothing to what we shall have to do when some of the regulations are brought before the House. I still think that the Government made a very grave mistake in the first part of this Bill relating to testing stations. I think that the dawn of enlightenment is now about to break over them. During the Report stage the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, showed that the Government have not studied the problem and have no idea of the problem that is going to confront them. I think it would be useful
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  to quote what the noble Earl said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 198, Col. 1079]:
  "I must confess that I was rather disturbed to note what Lord Lucas of Chilworth said in Committee. He said that no doubt the vendor of a secondhand car would have a testing station so that he would be able to do this testing in his spare time and could himself issue the certificate. I think that is going a little far, to buy a car from a man who is obliged to give a certificate "—
  I then interrupted to say:
  "That is precisely what will happen when this Bill becomes law."
  The noble Earl went on to say:
  "Testing somebody else's car is quite a different thing from testing a car which you are seeking to sell. There is only one certificate a vendor should ever give, and that is a continuing certificate, a guarantee lasting months or weeks, as the case may be. But a certificate at the moment of sale is absolutely and entirely bad."
  That is precisely what is going to happen. Under this Bill there will be about 15,000 testing stations, and every one will deal in secondhand motor cars. If it had been in order for me to do so, I would have come to the aid of the noble Earl and offered to your Lordships a Manuscript Amendment to Clause 2, which would have read:
  "Provided that no person shall be appointed an authorised examiner under this section who is engaged in the business of selling motor vehicles. "
  Very likely, in the course of time, that is what the law will have to be. However, that battle will have to be fought in the future.
  I do not think that the Government have treated the system of spot checking with the seriousness with which they should have treated it. They have written off spot checking, which is the one thing, above anything else, that will help in the problem of unroadworthy cars. I do not think that they have tackled the problem of parking in the right way. To give service to the public there must be off-street parking, but the Government have done nothing to ensure that that will be brought about. All we have had is the pious hope that at some future date, by having parking meters, the local authorities will collect sufficient money to provide off-street parking. It is a national and local authority responsibility to provide off-street parking for motor vehicles in this country. That problem, and the road congestion problem, will never be

  85
  solved until the Government come to the aid of local authorities, and provide financial help, either by way of loan, or by grant out of the £400 million which they now take from road users, for off-street parking. Again, one day they will have to do it; and again, I am sure that we shall have quite a lot of discussion on that problem when we come to the Regulations.
  I have only one other point to make. I quite agree with the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, that we have improved the Bill. Although it may have many more clauses, we have made a sincere effort to do something to stem the tide. Where I think we have failed is on the question of penalties. I am not happy about them. I am not going to fight the battle all over again, but I believe that we shall be compelled to have stiffer penalties. I think there is only one real answer to the problem of road accidents, and that is, somehow or other, to find the secret of controlling the behaviour of all users of the road; and I cannot think of any other way than by making the punishment fit the crime. I see that a correspondent in the The Times to-day does not agree with me, but I am still convinced that, sooner or later, some Government will have to reconcile this vast difference of opinion between Parliament and the magistrates' benches of this country. There is a wide gap between the idea of Parliament of the seriousness of road accidents, as shown by the maximum penalties which have been put into this Bill, and the magistrates, as shown by the average penalties inflicted by them.
  I want to draw attention to something which the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor said on this question—and we are indebted for the way in which he dealt with it. I am sorry that he is not on the Woolsack at the moment, because I said that I should be asking him a question. However, I can ask it of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, who no doubt will reply. The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor treated this matter with great seriousness, and on July 17, in talking about the effort in this House during the course of this Bill, he said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 198 (No. 118) col. 1156]:
  "If this effort fails, then not only the magistrates but we ourselves will have to think
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  again. This is the last chance of voluntary serious consideration of one of the greatest evils of our time. I do not think I can say more to mark the seriousness of the matter."
  Those words, coming from the Lord Chancellor, are of serious moment; and I read into them—I hope I. do not read too much into them—that unless the penalties inflicted by magistrates in the future arc more of a deterrent than 'they have been in the past, then there will have to be some serious re-thinking as to whether or not the method of legislating for penalties for road offences must undergo serious reconsideration. I should like to ask the noble Lord. Lord Mancroft, the question of which I gave the Lord Chancellor notice. I would ask him: how does he propose that these serious words shall be brought to the notice of all the magistrates' benches in the country? That is where they need to be read; not so much in your Lordships' House. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to give me a reply to that question.
  So we say "Goodbye" to this Bill, for myself with thankfulness—and I am sure I echo the opinion of the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. If there is anything I have become rather tired of, it is the Road Traffic Bill, 1956. However, we shall no doubt come back to it in future. through the Regulations, and I can promise the noble Earl that, if he is in charge of the matter then for the Government, he will receive from this side of the House the same helpful criticism and assistance as our contribution to the solution of one of the greatest scourges that we suffer from in this country to-day.
  6.14 p.m.
  LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, in three sentences I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Selkirk for the skill and courtesy he has shown in the conduct of this Bill through your Lordships' House. I have at times been a critic of certain points, but I should like to say, especially, how glad I am, since he is good enough to credit me with two Amendments, to say that on both occasions I withdrew my own Amendments on the Committee stage in response to his offer to give them further consideration before Report. On each occasion my noble friend was far better than his word; he treated the matter with immense patience and skill, and I thank him for it.
  6.15 p.m.
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I, too, am getting a little tired of the Road Traffic Bill, and I do not propose to go galloping over old battlefields; I will only answer the one question put by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, in the absence of my noble and learned friend from the Woolsack. I think it is fair to say that the magistrates of this country have already taken note of the grave words which my noble and learned friend spoke on this all-important subject. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, will appreciate the delicacy and difficulty of the Executive giving orders to the Judicature. I know that my noble and learned friend is hoping to meet the magistrates at their annual meeting next October, and I am certain that he will bring this point to their attention in the most suitable way. I, too, am to have the honour of attending at that meeting, and I will do my small and minor best to echo his words. That, I feel, is the best answer that I can give to the noble Lord at the moment.
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  I would mention one further point. I think that I unwittingly gave the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, a wrong impression on quite a small point to do with the towing away of vehicles. As your Lordships know, the Bill now enables the police, in certain circumstances, to tow vehicles away. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, begged us not to be too "thin-skinned" about this matter, and not to tow vehicles away only when they were obstrucing fire engines, ambulances, police cars and so on. I believe I gave the noble Lord a wrong impression on that point by the unfortunate dropping of an all-important negative, for which I take full responsibility. I can assure the noble Lord that we have no intention of confining the removal of cars solely to those circumstances. I hope that that will set his mind at rest.
  On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
  House adjourned at eighteen minutes past six o'clock.