Sitting of 12 July 1956

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
  MILLPORT PIERS (AMENDMENT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Barley (Value)
    Mr. Dyeasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) the average value per ton of home-grown barley exported since 1st August, 1955;
    (2) the average value per ton of barley imported since August, 1955.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft): The average values are £25 18s. f.o.b. for exports and £24 6s. c.i.f. for imports in the period August, 1955, to May, 1956.
    Mr. Dye: In view of the fact that most of the home barley is sold on the farm at £22 a ton and is subject to subsidy, may I ask whether it is good business to subsidise home-grown barley for export? Would it not be better to store it rather than import more?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Any qusetion about agricultural subsidies should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture.

    Raw Material Imports (Quota Restrictions)
    Mr. Holtasked the President of the Board of Trade what raw material imports from European countries are still restricted by quota.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Pulp and paper making materials and leather.
    Mr. Holt: In view of the fact that most European countries have now liberalised to 100 per cent. on raw materials, and even France has done so to 96 per cent., is it not entirely deplorable that this country has liberalised only to just over 80 per cent.?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I do not think it is deplorable. I think our record in liberalisation in Europe has been a good one. These quota restrictions have been imposed for balance of payments reasons, and are, of course, reviewed from time to time.

    Motor Car Exports
    Mr. Jayasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to seek the removal of obstacles to British motor car exports in oversea markets.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Many countries admit British cars without restrictions. In recent negotiations with countries which do impose quota restrictions we have secured increased quotas for our motor cars from Finland, France, Italy, and Norway. Tariff concessions for our motor cars were also obtained at the recent G.A.T.T. tariff negotiations in Geneva.
    Mr. Jay: In the case of Australia, which has recently made import quota cuts on motor cars, can the President say whether he has represented to the Australian Government that this cut should be less heavy on sterling motor cars than on dollar ones?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The whole question of our trade relations with Australia is under discussion at present. I would not propose to embark on aspects of it in detailed answers to questions.
    Mr. Jay: But cannot the right hon. Gentleman say at least whether he has made representations on that matter which would be a help to Commonwealth trade as well as to the British motor car industry?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: No; I do not propose to embark on any discussion of negotiations which are still in progress.

    Indian and Hong Kong Rayon Goods (Duty)
    Mr. Fletcher-Cookeasked the President of the Board of Trade what quotas, tariffs or other defences are imposed by the United Kingdom against rayon, rayon goods or other man-made fibres coming from India or Hong Kong.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Imports of Indian or Hong Kong goods containing rayon or other man-made fibres are, in general, liable to duty at five-sixths of the full rates of the silk and artificial silk duties. No quotas or other restrictions are imposed on these imports.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: As there is a tariff on Indian and Hong Kong rayon textiles, why is it that whenever we ask for protection for cotton goods we are told that it will provoke an unprecedented breach in the principle of free imports for Empire goods into this country?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Because these silk and rayon duties were Revenue duties, which are in the same category as the McKenna duties. If my hon. Friend would like to discuss the historical origin of these duties with me, I shall be happy to do so at any time.

    Woollen Textiles (Exports)
    Mr. George Craddockasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that Australian import quotas for wool cloth from Great Britain for the third quarter of this year are to be reduced; and what alternative proposals he has for maintaining the level of exports in wool cloth which are essential to the woollen textile trade.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The wool textile industry has already shown great resili-

    UNITED KINGDOM EXPORTS TO CZECHOSLOVAKIA

    Value £'000

    —

    1951

    1952

    1953

    1954

    1955

    1956 (January—May)

    Woollen and worsted yarns and woven fabrics

    98·4

    30·1

    35·4

    101·2

    125·6

    7·5

    Wool tops

    139·9

    —

    —

    103·7

    110·0

    18·1

    Total of the above

    238·2

    30·1

    35·4

    204·9

    235·6

    25·6

    Figures for 1950 are not available on a comparable basis with those for later years.

    It is not practicable at this stage to estimate the figure for 1956. A simple projection of the rate for the first five months would not be realistic.

    ence in the face of changing conditions in its overseas markets. All the services of my Department are available to assist the industry in the further developments of its exports.
    Mr. Craddock: Is the President aware that great concern is being felt now since the Australian Government announced the reduction in their quota for woollen textiles for the third quarter of the year, and will he please look further into this matter, so that we can escape the failure that we have had in the cotton and motor car industries?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Yes, I am aware of the damaging nature of the Australian cut, though fortunately, in this case, Australia is one of the smaller markets for wool cloth. Out of the total exports of about £68 million only £1·32 million go into that market.
    Mr. George Craddockasked the President of the Board of Trade the figures of woollen textiles exported to Czechoslovakia in the years 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, and the estimated figure for 1956.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Craddock: In view of the desire of the woollen textile manufacturers to do additional trade with Czechoslovakia, will the right hon. Gentleman do what he can to bring it about?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I will certainly endeavour to promote trade in any area where it seems appropriate to do so.
    Following is the Answer:
    Mr. George Craddockasked the President of the Board of Trade what the quota of exports of wollen textiles will be in value to Australia for the third quarter of this year compared with the March and June quarters of 1956.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: On the basis of past trade, it is estimated that licences to the value of about £170,000 might be used in the present quarter, representing a reduction of about 25 per cent. on the level of the two previous quarters.

    International Tin Council (Meeting)
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement about the first meeting of the International Tin Council held in London.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: The first meeting of the Council last week was mainly concerned with matters of internal organisation. The Council, however, considered the expected position of the world tin industry and concluded that estimates of supply and demand indicated an approximate balance during 1956. The Council also fixed 15th September as the date upon which initial contributions from producing countries to the buffer stock of tin and cash should become due. The producing countries indicated their intention of making their contributions mainly in cash. The International Tin Agreement provides for the buffer stock to buy and sell tin at certain price levels in order to stabilise the price.
    Mr. Bottomley: In welcoming the President's statement, might I encourage him to continue this kind of work, which was promoted by the Labour Government?

    Delegation from U.S.S.R.
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement about the visit to the United Kingdom of the Soviet trade mission.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: A delegation of Russian experts led by Mr. Malyshev, a Deputy-Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the U.S.S.R. has now arrived in this country. I have already had a useful exchange of views with Mr. Malyshev about the Soviet purchasing programme submitted during the visit of
    566
    Mr. Bulganin and Mr. Khrushchev. We are arranging a programme of visits to factories, and we shall show Mr. Malyshev that the possibilities are there for a large increase in Soviet purchases of United Kingdom goods.
    Mr. Bottomley: In welcoming the statement, might I express the hope that the President will continue to keep in close touch with the Soviet trade mission and, at a final meeting, give it a list of all the things that can be obtained in the United Kingdom?

    Anglo-Australian Discussions
    Mr. Bottomleyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement upon his talks with the Australian Minister of Trade.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: No, Sir. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of State said on 10th July in reply to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) these discussions are still proceeding and I am not able to make any statement about them at present.
    Mr. Bottomley: While I recognise that the discussions are continuing, may I ask the President whether he can say that more notice will be taken than in the past of the representations made by the Australians and brought to his attention by me in the House on several occasions during the last two years?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: No, Sir: I am not going to be drawn into any comment whatever about the conduct of the negotiations, not even by reference to past representations by the right hon. Gentleman which I cannot at present recollect.
    Mr. Bottomley: I should be ruled out of order if I tried to list all the things which I have drawn to the right hon. Gentleman's attention, but if he says "No, Sir" the talks are doomed to failure. I hope that he will give serious consideration to the questions which have been posed time and time again by Australian Ministers.
    Mr. Speaker: That is scarcely a question.

    Spring-clip Knives (Import)
    Mr. Jannerasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that there is a growing concern about the

    567
    open sale in Leicester, London, and elsewhere, of spring-clip knives, many of which are imported from abroad; and whether he will now take steps to stop these imports.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: As I explained to the hon. Member on 28th July last, this problem cannot, in my judgment, be dealt with by a control on imports.
    Mr. Janner: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider, with his colleagues, doing something to prevent such articles coming into the country, particularly because, first, they are extremely dangerous and there has recently been a manslaughter verdict in respect of the use of one of them, and, secondly, it is a waste of our money to import dangerous weapons to be used for no other purpose than attack?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Questions about dangerous weapons and what should or should not be sold in this country are matters for the Home Secretary.

    United Kingdom—Western Germany (Pottery Figures)
    Dr. Strossasked the President of the Board of Trade the value of the imports into Britain from Western Germany of pottery figures for the past twelve months; and the value of the quota for British exports to Western Germany of similar articles.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Imports of pottery figures are not separately specified in the United Kingdom Trade Accounts. As regards the second part of the Question, imports of pottery figures into Western Germany are free from quota restriction.
    Dr. Stross: With reference to pottery (imports generally from Western Germany, however, does the President remember that the last time I asked him about them it was apparent that, whereas Germany exported to us more than £1 million worth in six months, we were restricted to about £60,000 per year? If that is the case, will the right hon. Gentleman look into the problem, because the pottery industry in north Staffordshire is now facing very great difficulties?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I will continue to do all I can to assist the pottery industry of north Staffordshire. The imports of pottery figures into Western Germany are, in fact, free from all quota restrictions.

    Brazilian Exchange Rates
    Mr. Leatherasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is yet in a position to announce the steps taken to protect Commonwealth bananas from the results of Brazilian currency manipulations.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I have nothing to add to the Answer which I gave to my hon. Friend on 12th June.
    Mr. Leather: While I fully appreciate the complications, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will bear in mind that, unless he takes action before the Jamaican harvest season, immense damage will be done? The bananas will rot, and they will rapidly stink, and so will our reputation.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: This scarcely affects West Indian bananas, for they are imported all the year round, and, consequently, the matter of the harvest season there scarcely arises. Imports of Brazilian bananas are in marginal quantities, and there is no evidence at the moment that they are increasing.
    Mr. Bottomley: Was not an arrangement made with the Brazilian Government whereby no further restrictions of this kind would be imposed in return for concessions granted by us, and did not the House approve an Order on that basis? The Brazilians really are not playing the game.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The Brazilian share of the United Kingdom market is small, and has been falling. Unless I can see some evidence that there really is, as a result of these operations, some rise in the Brazilian share, I do not think there is anything about which we need be concerned.
    Mr. Leather: Surely my right hon. Friend will agree that the Brazilians have carried out this currency manipulation simply because their share has fallen, and they want it to rise again at the expense of our own territories?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: This is a complicated matter which I shall be happy to discuss with my hon. Friend, but I scarcely think that is right. Brazilian banana exports to this country are such a small proportion of Brazil's banana exports generally that I cannot think that would have been the chief preoccupation of the Brazilians.

    Hire-Purchase Agreements
    Mr. Allaunasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the serious effect the ending of "Add To" and other furniture hire-purchase arrangements is having on working-class households who previously, after repaying part of their obligations, bought more goods to that value, and also on furniture workers in Manchaster and Salford and other centres, who are suffering unemployment and short time; and if he will now reconsider this measure.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. Collins) on 19th April.
    Mr. Allaun: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the National Union of Furniture Trade Operatives reports a sudden worsening of the situation in the last fortnight? Can he explain how short-time working and unemployment for thousands of first-class craftsmen, whose skill cannot be used in the export trade, and many of whom are elderly and have spent a lifetime in the job, can possibly help the country?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: The hon. Gentleman raises in his question some rather wide points which were dealt with very fully in a recent economic debate. I cannot at this stage say on behalf of the Government that we are prepared to relax our general credit policy.
    Mr. Jay: In view of the very special distress caused in the furniture industry by the Government's policy, will the President, even if he cannot promise action now, undertake to watch the situation very carefully in the next few weeks?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I will certainly watch the situation in all industries, and not only in the furniture industry.

    Re-upholstery (Cleanliness Standards)
    Mr. Allaunasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the new consequence of the credit squeeze in the furniture industry in that the re-upholstery scheme, which asks for no deposit and so much a week, among other things, is jeopardising the British Standards Institution standards of cleanliness of materials; and if he will therefore amend his regulations to remedy this.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: No, Sir.
    Mr. Allaun: Does the Minister remember that in 1952, when they ended the Utility scheme, the Government placed confidence in the industry to maintain standards of quality, whereas the credit squeeze is, in the view of the union, so encouraging unscrupulous manufacturers that all the standards of cleanliness which the union has fought for so long to maintain are being undermined?
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I cannot agree that we should extend the operations of the credit squeeze into the sphere where people are merely having their own furniture re-upholstered. That does not seem to be a reasonable thing to do.

    Potato Imports
    Mr. Collinsasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make the figures of potato imports available privately, on a weekly basis, to the Potato Marketing Board.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: Such information as is available to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food about imports of potatoes under open individual licences is already passed weekly to the Potato Marketing Board; further details of arrivals and expected arrivals based on information from the trade are published weekly in various trade publications.
    Mr. Collins: But is the Minister aware that figures of imports which are a month old are utterly useless to the Board in giving growers any reliable advice about lifting, and thereby having orderly marketing? If the right hon. Gentleman cannot give the figures I have asked for, will he at least give the figures of the weekly clearings by the Customs, because that would at least show the trend of imports? It is quite an important matter.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I will look at the last point made by the hon. Member, which is a new one to me and might more appropriately be put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. All the figures that are available are given to the Potato Marketing Board by the appropriate Ministry.

    Film Industry
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a statement on the problem of the future policy for the film industry.
    Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Having said more than five months ago that he was consulting various sections of the industry, will the Minister hasten a decision in the matter before our film industry fades out altogether? It is in a sorry plight at the moment.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: I do not think that our film industry will fade out altogether, and it is important that I should complete my consultations with its various sections.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Hospital Capital Schemes (Treasury Consideration)
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the average lapse of time between the submission to the Treasury of a hospital capital scheme of £30,000 or over for approval and his giving his decision.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry Brooke): Between two and three weeks.
    Mr. Robinson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in certain instances the lapse of time is considerably longer than this, and runs into many months? Would he give an assurance that this arrangement, which should surely be terminated shortly, will not be used for the purposes of delay, and as a hidden way of cutting down capital expenditure on the hospital services?
    Mr. Brooke: There is no intention of that kind at all. In fact, for more than three-quarters of the schemes the average time is no more than nine days, and the average is brought up to two and three weeks by certain schemes which require longer consideration.

    Purchase Tax (Wool Cloth)
    Dr. Broughtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer his estimate of the amount of Purchase Tax that has been paid on the wool cloth which is now in the hands of tailors.
    Mr. H. Brooke: I have no means of making such an estimate.
    Dr. Broughton: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, if he does not know the figure and will not venture to make an estimate, how he came to tell me last week that it is the problem of the small tailor which makes it necessary to retain the tax on wool cloth? Do the Government not wish to investigate this matter further? Have they no desire to remove Purchase Tax on wool cloth, or are they resolved to continue this unjust discrimination against wool textiles?
    Mr. Brooke: This general question has been debated in the House recently. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an answer to his Question today because I do not know how many times a year, on the average, tailors turn over their stocks.
    Mr. Wade: Is the Minister aware that there is strong feeling in Yorkshire about the discrimination as between wool cloth and cotton textiles in respect of Purchase Tax? Will he give further consideration to the recommendations that have been made to him for the removal of this tax on wool cloth?
    Mr. Brooke: This matter has been examined by the Chancellor of the Exchequer personally, and because of the special problem of the small tailors we do not see how it would be practicable to treat wool cloth in the same way as cotton textiles are treated.

    £ Sterling and Retail Prices
    Mr. McKayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the yearly changes in the Treasury's general consumers' index, indicating the drop in the value of the £ sterling on the basis of the year 1945 being 100, to the year 1956; and if he will also show the yearly changes in the general retail prices corresponding with the variations in the value of the £ sterling for the same dates.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): As the reply contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:

    —

    (1)

    (2)

    (3)

    (4)

    Consumer Price Index

    Purchasing power of the £ derived from col. (1) (a)

    Retail Price Index

    Corresponding value of the £ derived from col. (3) (a)

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    1945 (b)

    …

    …

    85

    23

    8

    —

    —

    1946

    …

    …

    87

    23

    0

    —

    —

    1947

    …

    …

    93

    21

    6

    —

    —

    1948

    …

    …

    100

    20

    0

    100

    20

    0

    1949

    …

    …

    102

    19

    6

    103

    19

    5

    1950

    …

    …

    106

    18

    11

    106

    18

    11

    1951

    …

    …

    114

    17

    6

    116

    17

    4

    1952

    …

    …

    121

    16

    6

    126

    15

    10

    1953

    …

    …

    123

    16

    3

    130

    15

    4

    1954

    …

    …

    126

    15

    11

    132

    15

    1

    1955

    …

    …

    130

    15

    5

    138

    14

    5

    May. 1956 (c)

    …

    137

    14

    7

    146

    13

    8

    (a) The figures in cols. (2) and (4) have been calculated from the series given in cols. (1) and (3) before rounding.

    (b) The Consumer Price Index has been revised for the years from 1946 onwards, so that the figures for 1945 are not strictly comparable with the rest of the series.

    (c) The figures for May, 1956, in cols. (1) and (2) are provisional and have been obtained by linking the Consumer Price Index with the Retail Price Index since 1955.

    Trinidad Petroleum Development Company
    Mr. Doddsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the concern arising from the proposal of the Colorado Oil and Gas Corporation of Denver, United States of America, to take over the financial control of the Trinidad Petroleum Development Company; and what steps he is taking in this matter.
    Mr. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the Colorado Oil and Gas Corporation of Denver, United States of America, is in the process of acquiring the financial control of the Trinidad Petroleum Development Company; and as, according to law, this company must remain in British control and must not be sold without the Treasury's permission, he will refuse to sanction this take-over bid.
    Sir E. Boyle: My right hon. Friend has seen reports of this proposal in the Press. The considerations affecting any consents that may be required under the ordinary law of Trinidad or the United Kingdom are set out in paragraphs 17–23 of Command Paper 9790, but he cannot prejudge either Government's decision on any applications that might be made.
    Mr. Dodds: I quite agree that we can find in print words to that effect, but are
    574
    the Government not taking an interest in this matter to avoid another oil sale for short-term expediency, or is it favoured by the Government to bolster up Tory economics?
    Sir E. Boyle: I cannot add to what I have said, that my right hon. Friend cannot prejudge the decision of either Government; and I stick to that.

    Cars (Depreciation Allowances)
    Miss Burtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what limits are imposed by the Inland Revenue on the type and cost of car purchased for business purposes; and if he is in a position to state the approximate aggregate cost of this concession to the Inland Revenue;
    (2) whether he is aware of public disquiet at the practice of the Inland Revenue in determining what cars may be used for business purposes; and how many of these business cars are on the Inland Revenue list.
    Mr. H. Brooke: The Inland Revenue does not determine what cars may be used for business purposes, but the Income Tax Acts provide that, where a car is used for both business purposes and other purposes, the depreciation allowances in respect of the business use shall be so much only of the full allowances as may be just and reasonable in

    575
    the circumstances. Accordingly, if the cost of the car is substantially in excess of the amount that would have satisfied reasonable business needs, the Inland Revenue would seek an appropriate restriction of the allowances on that account. I regret that I could not make a separate estimate of the number of business cars or the cost of the relative allowances.
    Miss Burton: Without being offensive, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that his reply would seem to be a typical Civil Service one, very involved and giving no information? May I also ask him if he is aware that there is public feeling that this is a real scandal, and that some of these cars, used for so-called business purposes, are most unfair financial transactions? Has the right hon. Gentleman no statement to make on that matter at all?
    Mr. Brooke: The hon. Lady could not possibly be offensive. She has asked me two Questions which appeared to suggest that she thought that the Inland Revenue was being too restrictive in this matter. In her supplementary question she has suggested that it was being too generous.
    Mr. Jay: Can the Financial Secretary tell us, since presumably the Inland Revenue must know, what proportion of all the passenger cars sold in the home market in the United Kingdom are adjudged by the Inland Revenue to be either wholly or partly used for business purposes?
    Mr. Brooke: I certainly could not answer that question without notice.
    Mr. Baldwin: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of us, in the interests of economy, do not agree that a car costing £7,000 should be entered as a farm expense, and that we are only too glad to think that the Inland Revenue is watching that sort of thing.

    Visitors to United Kingdom (Customs Concessions)
    Mr. Leatherasked the Secretary to the Treasury by what authority Customs officers waive duty and Purchase Tax on articles brought into the country in a visitor's pockets, which would be dutiable had they entered in the hold of a ship.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Under Ministerial authority there are concessions of very long standing which allow visitors to bring in, without payment of Customs charges, small quantities of tobacco, liquor and other such goods for their personal use, but not as merchandise. These concessions conform with international agreements.
    Mr. Leather: But is not my right hon. Friend, in fact, saying that there are such concessions? If people bring certain documents here for the sole purpose of trying to build up and help British exports, surely the Customs does not have to go out of its way to stop them from doing so?
    Mr. Brooke: My hon. Friend is referring to a case about which he has corresponded with me, in which he was pressing that certain goods which were imported as cargo should be admitted free. If I may refer to that case, I would say that had the Customs officer known that 500 books of order forms had been imported in a passenger's baggage, he might well have considered them chargeable with tax.

  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Reorganisation Commission for Pigs and Bacon (Report)
    Mr. Godman Irvineasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he can give the expected date of publication of the Bosanquet Report.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent): The Report of the Reorganisation Commission for Pigs and Bacon is being published today as a Command Paper. I would like to express publicly the gratitude of my right hon. Friend and the Secretary of State for Scotland to the Chairman, Dr. Bosanquet, and the other members of the Commission for the time and thought that they have devoted to these difficult problems. The recommendations of the Commission will be considered together with those made by the Howitt Committee on the development of pig production. They will need to be discussed with the interests concerned before any announcement can be made about the Government's future policy on pig production and marketing.

    Horses (Export)
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the fact that the export of horses for slaughter from the Republic of Ireland to France has been resumed, and that 154 horses were shipped for this purpose on 2nd June and 155 on 16th June, he will now make regulations prohibiting the export of all horses from the United Kingdom to the Republic of Ireland.
    Mr. Nugent: No, Sir. As my right hon. Friend said in reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Arundel and Shoreham (Captain Kerby) on 8th June, he has no evidence that horses which go from this country to the Irish Republic are re-exported to the Continent for slaughter.
    Mr. Johnson: Is my hon. Friend aware that since then this trade to France has been resumed? Has his attention been drawn to a report that a horse was recently sold for slaughter in Paris for £151? In view of this very high figure for a horse for slaughter, will my hon. Friend not take steps to ensure that none of ours can possibly find its way to that market through the Republic of Ireland?
    Mr. Nugent: If my hon. Friend can give me any information which traces a horse sold from here to Ireland at over the £100 limit going in that way, we shall be prepared to look at the present Regulations again.

    Egg Packers (Costs)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will set up an inquiry into the prices at which egg packers actually sell eggs, and into their profit margins and returns on capital employed.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry, of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Harmar Nicholls): No, Sir. Investigations into egg packers' costs are already made by my Department from time to time.
    Mr. Collins: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that egg packers also make profits as wholesalers, and that the present arrangements favour them unduly, because they sell eggs to Nedal only when the demand is less than the supply? In other words, they back winners both ways. Will the hon. Gentleman not look into
    578
    that point, because it is obvious that the margins are too high?
    Mr. Nicholls: That is a point which is continually looked into. It is well to remember that the element of profit in the present basic margins represents less than ½ per cent. of the value of the turnover.

    Potato Imports
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenportasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state the conditions of entry of potatoes from overseas into this country; what advice he received from the Potato Marketing Board in regard to imports of new potatoes; and whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction of Cheshire potato growers over this year's imports; and what action he will take.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The importation of new potatoes is permitted under open general licence, but is subject to a tariff which varies seasonally. Main crop potatoes cannot be imported at present; the tariff on these potatoes is 1s. a cwt. throughout the year. The importation of all potatoes is subject to health controls.
    My right hon. Friend has received suggestions from the Potato Marketing Board, which he is considering. My right hon. Friend is aware that there has been disappointment among growers of new potatoes, including those from Cheshire, with prices they have received in recent weeks, but he is advised that this has been largely caused by heavy marketing from all producing areas within the United Kingdom. He sees no reason to intervene.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: Is my hon. Friend aware that there has been great dissatisfaction among potato growers in Cheshire because just as they were going to put their own new potatoes on the market the market was flooded by potatoes from overseas? Is it necessary to bring potatoes into the country just at the very time when our farmers want to get good prices?
    Mr. Nicholls: I think that my hon. and gallant Friend will be interested to know that information to hand at present shows that importations this year were not as high as they were last year, and the problem that has faced home growers has been the overflush in the producing areas in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. G. R. Howard: Is my hon. Friend quite sure that the importation of these potatoes at a time when there are plenty of supplies from our own growers is not being helped by the application of the so-called health restriction as opposed to the quantitive restriction? It seems to me that more potatoes are allowed in on the health restriction basis than is really permissible, in view of our own growers' position?
    Mr. Nicholls: I assure my hon. Friend that great attention is paid to health controls, which are very important. The actual import figures will interest my hon. Friend. In March, April and May, 1956, imports amounted to 117,026 tons, compared with 121,000 tons in the corresponding months of 1955.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the main trouble this year has been the month's delay in the import of Cyprus potatoes, due to the Government's policy in Cyprus and the curfew restrictions imposed there? Is he aware that as a result Ayrshire farmers have lost £500,000 and that they want to know whether the Government have any policy at all?
    Mr. Nicholls: I am interested to note that the hon. Member has completely overlooked the problems caused by the frost and bad weather that we had.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: Could my hon. Friend, if possible, avoid, in giving future answers to questions of this nature, giving figures of what were or were not imported last year? What the farmers are concerned with is what is being imported this year.
    Mr. Nicholls: I was trying to keep my hon. and gallant Friend on the right lines. He seemed to take the view that it was an increase in imported potatoes that had caused the trouble, but the real problem was that the producing areas in this country flooded the market at about the same time.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Redundant Workers, Midlands (Accommodation)
    Mr. D. Howellasked the Minister of Labour if he will have consultations with the Minister of Housing and Local
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    Government to ensure that, where redundant workers in the Midlands are required to work in other parts of the country, housing accommodation will be available to their families; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of Labour and National Service (Mr. Iain Macleod): It is the practice of my Department to keep in touch with the Ministry of Housing and Local Government on questions of accommodation for workers. The requirements of the workers mentioned by the hon. Member as they have so far expressed them to my officers, do not suggest that any special consultation is necessary.
    Mr. Howell: If large numbers of people are to be unemployed or redundant and work cannot be provided in the area, is it not clear that eventually they will look for work elsewhere? Does that mean that the Ministry and the Government, in those circumstances, would not be prepared to look at the matter and have a housing policy to meet such a situation?
    Mr. Macleod: Of course we are prepared to look at the matter and to keep it very closely under review. I have always held the opinion—and what has happened so far, on the whole, bears it out—that the housing difficulties are not as formidable as many people suggest. Up to the present, lack of family accommodation in other areas has not proved a hindrance, and there has not been a single case of the placing of redundant B.M.C. workers which involves living away from home.

    Birmingham
    Mr. D. Howellasked the Minister of Labour if he will classify the 12,000 vacancies within travelling distance of Birmingham and state the basic wages applicable in each class.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The bulk of these vacancies were in the engineering and allied industries, building and contracting, railways, and public transport. Information on standard rates of wages in most industries is given in my Department's publication "Time Rates of Wages and Hours of Labour". The latest issue was published by the Stationery Office on the 29th June.
    Mr. Howell: But is it not a fact that the basic rate of wages in the alternative employments available to these people is very much below the rates which they have been earning? Is the Minister prepared to have regard to that fact when he is placing people in employment? Does he not agree that it is rather unreasonable to expect people to accept a standard of living which is about half that which they used to enjoy?
    Mr. Macleod: In many cases, and those of skilled people in particular, there are a number of jobs available at comparable rates of pay. It is, of course, perfectly true that if a person moves from one job to another the rate for the second job may be higher, the same or lower than the one in which he was employed before. Obviously, it is not possible to give any guarantee—and it would lead to an absurd position if one tried to do it—that rates of wages in jobs would always remain the same.
    Mr. Osborne: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that though the wages paid to these men who are being transferred are being reduced, they are still vastly greater than those paid to the agricultural workers whom I represent? [HON. MEMBERS: "Raise them."] Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind how socially unjust it would be if agricultural workers were expected to provide unemployment pay for these men who can earn more in three days than my men can earn in 5½ days?
    Mr. Macleod: That is an important question, but it is a very long way from the Question on the Order Paper.

    Training Centre, Birmingham
    Mr. D. Howellasked the Minister of Labour how many places exist in his training centres in the Birmingham area; what industries are mainly covered by them; and how many redundant workers from the motor industry can be accommodated at these centres in the immediate future.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour and National Service (Mr. Robert Carr): The Birmingham centre has 142 places, of which 28 are at present unoccupied. The trades taught in it include agricultural machinery repair;
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    motor repair; hairdressing; radio repair; typewriter repair; watch and clock repair; carpentry; shorthand typing and engineering draughtsmanship.
    Mr. Howell: Is the Minister prepared to look at the question of increasing the number of places at these centres if the present position the motor car industry persists in Birmingham? Do not the Answers given to these three Questions clearly show that the Government have no policy whatsoever to meet the present position in Birmingham and elsewhere?
    Mr. Carr: Whilst utterly dissociating myself from the last part of the hon. Member's supplementary question—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—because it is not accurate—I can assure him that we shall keep the point made in the first part in mind. There are 120 further places in the Birmingham centre alone which could be brought into use at comparatively short notice, if the need arose for resettlement.

    Willesden
    Mr. Orbachasked the Minister of Labour the number of vacancies notifed for skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled workers at the Willesden employment exchange on the last available day.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: On 9th July there were 1,170 vacancies for men and 990 for women at the Willesden employment exchange. 530 of the men's vacancies were for skilled workers, and 360 of the women's. It is not practicable to distinguish between vacancies for semi-skilled workers and unskilled workers.
    Mr. Orbach: Is the Minister aware that a week ago 400 skilled workers in this area were declared redundant? They are having very great difficulty in finding alternative jobs. What does the Minister propose to do to get them absorbed into industry at the earliest possible moment?
    Mr. Macleod: Of course I know the difficulties. The hon. Member is referring to the Smith's motor accessory firm in his constituency. But his constituency is part of London and cannot be taken in isolation, because travelling facilities are very good and one has to consider all the vacancies available in the surrounding areas. Those are many times the number of people unemployed.

    Nationalised Industries (Wage Claims and Negotiations)
    Mr. Boardmanasked the Minister of Labour if he will give an asurance that wage applications or negotiations covering those employed in nationalised industries will not be prejudiced by reason of any undertakings which have been given at the request of Her Majesty's Government not to increase charges or prices for limited periods.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: There is in the nationalised industries joint negotiating machinery for the settlement of terms and conditions of employment. Her Majesty's Government have no intention of undermining the responsibility of the authorities concerned with the operation of these industries for considering wage claims and conducting negotiations through the joint machinery.
    Mr. Boardman: Will the Minister continue to bear in mind that discrimination against any section of workers would have a most disastrous result upon industrial relations generally, far outside the nationalised undertakings?
    Mr. Macleod: There is no question whatever of discrimination. These undertakings by the nationalised industries, which we very much welcome, were given entirely on their own responsibility—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Indeed they were—and their responsibility for wages and conditions of service remains exactly as it was before.

    Motor Car Accessory and Light Engineering Industries
    Mr. Orbachasked the Minister of Labour whether he will make a statement on Government policy in respect of the rapid increase in the number of workers on short time and redundancy in the motor car accessory and light engineering industries.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I would refer the hon. Member to the statements made in the debate in this House on 3rd July.
    Mr. Orbach: Will not the Minister agree that those statements were thoroughly unsatisfactory? Will he not agree that the present position in the motor car accessory and light engineering industries arises as a result of the Government's policy, what is called flexibility of
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    employment and the credit squeeze? Is it not time for a real examination of this problem before the matter gets out of hand?
    Mr. Macleod: All these matters were dealt with very carefully, particularly by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the debate to which I have referred, and in which he explained Government policy about the credit squeeze and all the matters which stem from it.

    Departmental Staff (Economies)
    Mr. Redheadasked the Minister of Labour what staffing economies he contemplates in his Department; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Following a review of the work, organisation, and staffing throughout my Department, I expect to secure economies which will save about 2,000 staff by the end of 1957. I am circulating a statement on the savings to be effected in the current financial year in the OFFICIAL REPORT in Answer to the hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. Collins).
    Mr. Redhead: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is a singularly inappropriate time to contemplate reductions of this character and this magnitude, at a period when there is increasing need for the services of his Department? Would he further agree that it is a fact that he has received urgent representations from the staff associations concerned expressing their alarm at the effects on the efficiency of his Department of these economies, and that in reply thereto he has intimated and agreed publicly to acknowledge that he expects these reductions to result in a reduction in the standards of service of his Department?
    Mr. Macleod: Any great public Department, as with all great public undertakings, should keep its services under review and I make no apology at all for carrying out a searching review, although, of course, it is perfectly true—and I say this in the statement which I shall issue in the OFFICIAL REPORT—that in some cases the scale of the services may be affected, but I am certain that the standards will not be.
    Mr. G. Brown: Is it true that it is to be branch employment offices and the Appointments Bureaux and the Technical

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    and Scientific Register which are being cut? Is not the Minister, by his own will, choosing at this moment to cut down staff in the branch employment offices when he is trying to redeploy labour?
    Mr. Macleod: Those are different matters. We are now and have for a long time been in a period of full employment. Apart from the drop in the unemployment figures which we all welcome very much indeed, there have been changes in habits in the population, changes in the availability of transport and other matters. Of course it is right, in the light of those, that local services should be reviewed, and the outlined results of those reviews will be in the OFFICIAL REPORT of today.
    Mr. G. Brown: Will the OFFICIAL REPORT also say which branch offices are being shut, so that we can see which they are?
    Mr. Macleod: At this stage, of course not.
    Mr. G. Brown: Can we not be told?

    Remploy (Finance)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Labour if he will announce his proposals for the provision of moneys to cover the annual loss which it is estimated will be incurred by Remploy over the next five years and also for capital expenditure.
    Mr. Carr: As I told the House on 21st March last, it has been arranged that over the next five years Remploy will be able to work within an average of £200,000 per year for capital expenditure and up to £2½ million per year for running expenses. It is the aim of Remploy to reduce the average loss per head to the level of the average wage from time to time.
    Within the terms of this understanding, and in consultation each year with Remploy, provision will be made in the Estimates of my Department for the amounts estimated to be required. For the current financial year £237,500 is provided for capital expenditure and £2½ million for running expenses.
    Mr. Collins: In addition to that very satisfactory Answer, can the Minister say whether, in respect of maintenance expenditure, Remploy will be able to carry over any unspent sums from one year to another? Will he ask his right hon. Friend to consider the possibility of
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    giving Remploy a notional credit for any trainees who are able to be transferred each year into open industry?
    Mr. Carr: With regard to the latter part of the hon. Member's suggestion—which is a new one—without giving any undertaking at all, I can say that we will certainly consider it. With regard to the first part, in order to enable me to give an accurate answer about maintenance—which is difficult to distinguish and put in an appropriate category—perhaps the hon. Gentleman would put down a special Question about it.

  THERMO-NUCLEAR WEAPONS (TESTS)
  Mr. Swinglerasked the Prime Minister if he will now propose to all heads of States the temporary cessation of nuclear test explosions, pending the outcome of the discussions of the Disarmament Commission on the Anglo-French proposals for the limitation and eventual abolition of such tests.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Anthony Eden): As I said on 7th June, Her Majesty's Government are prepared to discuss methods of regulating and limiting test explosions which take account of their own position as well as that of other Powers. It would no doubt be preferable that this matter should be pursued within the context of a comprehensive agreement on disarmament. For our part, however, we should not exclude other methods of discussion acceptable to those concerned.
  Mr. Swingler: While welcoming the discussion on this matter initiated by Her Majesty's Government in the Disarmament Commission, may I ask whether the Prime Minister will not give a lead on this question as a separate and urgent issue susceptible of immediate international agreement and control? Would he not be willing to take some steps to prevent this question becoming tied up with much more complex problems, which it will take a long time to solve, so there may be some possibility of immediate agreement on this as a separate question?
  The Prime Minister: I am aware of that aspect of the problem. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman did not hear the last part of my Answer
  "for our part we should not exclude other methods of discussion"

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  that is to say, methods apart from the larger disarmament convention—if acceptable to others concerned. In other words, we are ready to discuss the matter, we prefer to do it through the Disarmament Commission, but, if that is not possible, we for our part are willing to do it outside, if others are willing to do so.
  Mr. Bellenger: Will the Prime Minister at least assure the House that when he visits Russia next year—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too late."]—he may take up this matter on the highest possible level, which may produce some results?
  Mr. Younger: Can we take the Prime Minister's statement as implying that he will take some initiative in this matter to try to get agreement of this kind irrespective of more general agreement on international control? If so, does that mean that the words spoken by the Minister of State in the Disarmament Commission do not bear the meaning so widely attributed to them, particularly by the editor of The Times this morning?
  The Prime Minister: I think that the right hon. Gentleman probably knows the position. It is that these matters are dealt with as part of the Anglo-French plan with a wider scope altogether. We should naturally prefer that the Anglo-French plan, if possible, should be accepted. If, however, progress is not made with that and, if as the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) suggested, the matter becomes tangled in other ways, we should be ready to consider other methods of dealing with the matter.
  Mr. Beswick: Although the Prime Minister says that the Government are prepared to discuss other methods, the methods which he has indicated are also tangled and confused. Would he now state quite simply whether Her Majesty's Government would be prepared to call a halt now to these tests, if other countries would do the same?
  The Prime Minister: The question with which I am dealing is that of the limitation of these tests. Personally, I think that the House would be wise to start with limitation and see if we can get agreement on that. I have explained that it is in our scheme with the French. If it is not accepted in that form and can
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  be discussed more easily in some other form, we are ready to do so.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Are we to understand from that that the Prime Minister means that the Government will be prepared to put forward as a separate proposal the proposal to limit and control the tests, quite apart from any other disarmament proposal?
  The Prime Minister: I was explaining some time ago that it is already in our Anglo-French proposals. We should prefer to deal with it in that way. If, however, we cannot make progress in that way, I do not exclude dealing with it in some other way by itself.
  Mr. A. Henderson: Can the Prime Minister clear up what he has just said? Is it a fact that the proposals which the Minister of State has put forward at the present disarmament discussions have become tangled, or is it still possible that they may be accepted by the other Governments represented at the conference?
  The Prime Minister: They are part of the Anglo-French plan, which covers the whole scheme of disarmament. Quite rightly the Minister of State put these proposals forward as part of that plan. I have tried to explain to the House that if that and other plans get held up we are prepared to consider other methods for settling this particular problem.

  PRICES (STABILISATION)
  Mr. G. Jegerasked the Prime Minister with which sections of private industry he has now discussed a standstill in prices; and with what results.
  The Prime Minister: I have discussed the general economic situation and the importance of keeping prices down with representatives of the Federation of British Industries and the British Employers' Confederation and also with representatives of the Trades Union Congress.
  I understand that the Federation of British Industries, the National Union of Manufacturers, the Association of British Chambers of Commerce and the British Employers' Confederation are issuing certain statements this afternoon. The hon. Member and the House will no doubt wish to consider these carefully.
  Mr. Jeger: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has also had consultations with the brewers? Is he aware that they have recently increased the price of beer, in spite of the fact that there is a close connection between the right hon. Gentleman's party and the brewers, whereby the latter lent their poster sites, upon which was advertised his party's Election pledge that it would reduce the cost of living?
  The Prime Minister: I have just said that a number of statements are being put out this afternoon by various employing bodies. Perhaps the hon. Member would study them, and if he is not satisfied he can put down a Question to me later.
  Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: How has it been possible for any private industry to keep down its prices when coal and transport, upon which all other ultimate costing depends, keep on rising in price? Is not this typical of nationalised industries, and should not they set an example?
  Mr. Jay: Can the Prime Minister say whether, in these general discussions with private industry, he asked for restraint in dividends as well as in prices?
  The Prime Minister: I am certainly not going to say anything about our discussions either with the T.U.C. or with private industry. If the hon. Member will study the statements which are being put out this afternoon he will find them not unencouraging for the national purpose which we should all have in mind.

  CYPRUS (NEW CONSTITUTION)
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister whether he will now make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's future policy in Cyprus.
  The Prime Minister: As the reply to the hon. Gentleman's Question is rather long I will, with permission, give it in a statement at the end of Questions.

  POLICE

    Antique Firearms (Confiscation)
    Major Wallasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what advice he has given to the police re-
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    garding the confiscation of antique firearms.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Major Gwilym Lloyd-George): I have given no advice to the police on this subject. The Firearms Act, 1937, which regulates the manufacture, sale and possession of firearms, does not apply to antique firearms kept as curiosities or ornaments, and the police were so informed when the Act came into operation.
    Major Wall: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that there have been numerous occasions recently when the police have confiscated antique firearms no more dangerous than the kitchen poker? Is he aware that this action does not accord with Section 33 of the Firearms Act, 1937, and will he see that this practice is stopped?
    Major Lloyd-George: I could not agree with my hon. and gallant Friend about the innocence of the kitchen poker, but I am quite prepared to consider any case that he is prepared to bring to my attention.

    Metropolitan Force ("C" Division)
    Mr. Anthony Greenwoodasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department by what methods the West End division of the Metropolitan police force has been brought up to strength.
    Major Lloyd-George: "C" division, which is generally known as the West End division, has been brought up to strength by the gradual posting during recent months of recruits from the training schools and the transfer on 2nd July of 30 constables who had previously been on loan to the division from neighbouring divisions.
    Mr. Greenwood: Can the Home Secretary assure the House that the division has not been brought up to strength by drafting men to it from other parts of London where gangs are known to be operating?
    Major Lloyd-George: I do not think so. It is within the Commissioner's discretion to use this force to the best possible advantage, and he has directed the men to this division. I see no evidence at all that this has had any effect upon other parts of London.

  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Prisoner, Pentonville (Parole Application)
    Mr. Beswickasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consideration was given to the appeal for parole, details of which have been supplied by the hon. Member for Uxbridge, made on behalf of a prisoner in Pentonville to enable the prisoner to attend the funeral of his father; by whom was the consideration given; and why and by whom was the appeal rejected.
    Major Lloyd-George: At the time this case arose, governors were not authorised to grant parole for attendance at funerals. This application for parole was made in the first instance to the governor, who did not feel that he could properly recommend it and accordingly did not seek authority to grant it. When the hon. Member intervened, the Prison Commissioners at my request reviewed the application and upheld the governor's view that this was not a suitable case for parole, since the prisoner was not thought to fulfil the exacting standards required in such cases.
    Mr. Beswick: The Home Secretary is now saying that this case was considered by the Prison Commissioners. At 10.30 on the morning of the actual funeral the prison governor had had no communication at all from the Prison Commissioners, and the application had been for release at 11 o'clock that morning. Can the Home Secretary say why the Commissioners did not discuss the matter at all with the prison governor?
    Major Lloyd-George: As the hon. Member knows, it was not until about 29th June that this special direction was given. Had that been in operation at the time it would not have affected this case, because this prisoner was quite unsuitable for parole.

    Gang Crimes (Penalties)
    Dr. Kingasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce a Measure to increase the penalties for crimes committed by members of gangs.
    Major Lloyd-George: The law already provides severe penalties for the types of crime which are commonly committed by gangs, and there are no
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    sufficient grounds for proposing any increases in them. It would not be possible to prescribe a higher maximum penalty, for an individual who commits a crime, on the ground that he is a member of a gang.
    Dr. King: If the law is adequate, will the Minister bear in mind that any steps which he takes to secure exemplary punishment for gangsterdom, and particularly of young folk who hunt in gangs, will have the support of the British people? Will he ask the Press to help him by painting a less glamorous and more realistic picture of the cowardly behaviour of those who hunt in gangs?
    Major Lloyd-George: The hon. Member will appreciate that the punishment for certain primes of the sort to which one assumes he is referring is, in more than one case, imprisonment for life.

    Whitehall (Closure to Traffic)
    Mrs. L. Jegerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why the Metropolitan police closed a section of Whitehall to traffic during the morning of 5th July; for how long traffic was diverted; and whether, in view of the congestion, inconvenience, and delay involved for the public, he will be a statement.
    Major Lloyd-George: I am informed by the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis that on his instructions part of Whitehall was closed to vehicular traffic for twenty minutes on the morning of Thursday, 5th July, during a ceremony at the Cenotaph in which His Excellency the Venezuelan Ambassador laid a wreath on the occasion of his country's National Day.
    Mrs. Jeger: Will the Home Secretary try to ensure that such ceremonies are held without diversion of traffic, which is already sufficiently congested? Is he further aware that the least inconvenience which was caused by this involved Members of Parliament being made late for Committees at 10.30 a.m.?
    Major Lloyd-George: The hon. Lady will appreciate that, although I am anxious to do everything I possibly can to do nothing to increase the congestion of traffic, in this particular instance I could not really do much. On special

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    occasions it is very difficult to refuse, but I am naturally anxious to do everything I can to avoid increasing the present congestion.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he will announce the business for next week?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 16TH JULY—Supply [21st Allotted Day]: Committee.
Debate on the Administration of the Factories Acts and Safety Arrangements in Factories, until 7 p.m.
Afterwards, a debate will take place on the Report on the Hazards to Man of Nuclear and Allied Radiations.
Report and Third Reading of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research Bill [Lords].
TUESDAY, 17TH JULY—Supply [22nd Allotted Day]: Committee.
Debate on Health in Scotland.
Report stage of the Navy, Army and Air Expenditure, 1954–55.
Consideration of the Motion relating to the Greenwich Hospital and Travers' Foundation Accounts.
WEDNESDAY, 18TH JULY—Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Slum Clearance (Compensation) Bill; and to the Transport (Disposal of Road Haulage Property) Bill.
Consideration of the Motions to approve the Draft Road Haulage Disposal Board (Abolition) Order; and the several Motions relating to the white fish and herring industries.
THURSDAY, 19TH JULY—Supply [23rd Allotted Day]: Committee.
The Vote for the Ministry of Education will be considered.
Consideration of the Motion to approve the Import Duties (Exemptions) Order relating to pork, bacon and ham.
FRIDAY, 20TH JULY—Second Reading of the Crown Estate Bill, and of the Hill Farming Bill.
Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolutions.
Mr. Russell: May I ask my right hon. Friend when the Overseas Resources Development Bill is to be considered by the House? Is he aware that any delay in passing the Bill will hold up a number of important schemes of Commonwealth business which we all want to see put through?
The Prime Minister: I understand that. We will take the Bill as soon as we can, but I cannot give my hon. Friend a date.
Mr. Beswick: May I ask whether it is the intention of the Government to limit the debate on the second part of Monday's business? Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the debate will be limited to technical matters concerned with radiation, or will it be in order to discuss the reluctance of the Government to take the lead in the abolition of all further nuclear tests?
The Prime Minister: It will be on a Motion to take note of the Report. It is not for me to say how wide the debate may range, but I should have thought that it would cover the criticism of the hon. Gentleman.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether the Motion to set up the Select Committee on Procedure will be debated before the Summer Recess?
The Prime Minister: That is our hope.
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Have the Government decided to find time for the two Motions on the Order Paper relating to the retrospective pay of the police?
[That, in the opinion of this House, the Police Act, 1919, should be amended so that the award of the Police Arbitration Tribunal of increased pay to all ranks, with effect from 8th September last, may be implemented for lower as well as higher ranks.]
[That, in the opinion of this House, the Federated ranks of the Police Service should no longer be excluded from the benefits of retrospective pay agreements where appropriate, and, in particular, urges the Government to take the necessary action by legislation or otherwise, that will permit the recent Award of the Independent Police Arbitration Tribunal to be implemented.]
The Prime Minister: The Home Secretary is to make a statement about that very shortly.
Mr. Rippon: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he has seen the Motion in my name on the Order Paper on the subject of establishing a common market in Western Europe? Is he aware that a large number of hon. Members on this side of the House, and on the Liberal benches, have already subscribed to it? Would it be possible to have a debate on this subject before the Recess?
[That this House expresses agreement in principle on the establishment by stages of a common market in Western Europe and urges Her Majesty's Government to accept the invitation to participate in the negotiations currently taking place on the subject between the representatives of Belgium, France, the Federal Republic of Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands, with a view to ensuring that if, or when, any treaty is signed the way will be open for British participation in the common market on an acceptable basis and in accordance with the interests of the Commonwealth and Empire.]
The Prime Minister: I could not at present give the undertaking for which my hon. Friend is asking.
Mr. H. Morrison: The Prime Minister said that the Home Secretary will make a statement about retrospective pay for the police. In view of the considerable anxiety about this matter, can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how soon that statement will be made?
The Prime Minister: Almost at once. When I have made the statement on Cyprus, which I have already promised to make to the House.

CYPRUS (NEW CONSTITUTION)
The Prime Minister: With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to make a statement.
In order that the House may be able to form a true judgment of the situation which has been reached regarding Cyprus, it is, I think, desirable that I should remind hon. Members of the recent history of this problem.
596
As the House will remember, in September, 1955, Her Majesty's Government held a Tripartite Conference with the Greek and Turkish Governments. The chief purpose of this conference was to discover whether a way could be found to reconcile the differences dividing the Governments concerned on the question of Cyprus. The Governments proved unable to agree at that time on a common policy.
Her Majesty's Government then decided to try to make progress towards a solution by means of discussions on the island itself between the Governor of Cyprus and Archbishop Makarios. These discussions lasted several months, but for reasons which have previously been debated in this House, they broke down.
Her Majesty's Government then decided to make another approach to this most intractable question on the international level. The principle of self-determination had been accepted by Her Majesty's Government. The problem was, therefore, whether a solution regarding its application could be devised which would provide fully for the protection not only of our own interests in Cyprus and the Eastern Mediterranean, but also of those of Turkey and of other countries to whom we have treaty obligations.
Unfortunately, this has not yet been found possible. It has become plain that steps to create conditions which might lead to the application of self-determination for Cyprus would raise far wider issues for our Turkish allies as parties to the Lausanne Treaty settlement.
The House will readily understand the risks which would be involved if Her Majesty's Government were to attempt unilaterally to take such steps. As it has proved impossible to obtain international agreement in this matter, which so clearly contains the seeds of grave danger to the whole future of the Eastern Mediterranean, Her Majesty's Government have to accept that for the present progress by this means cannot be realised.
But certain steps can be taken within the island itself. Her Majesty's Government therefore intend to proceed with the development of internal self-government in Cyprus. For this purpose they have decided to ask Lord Radcliffe to start work forthwith as Constitutional Commissioner. It will be his task to consider

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the framework of a new liberal Constitution for Cyprus, including safeguards for the interests of all communities, and to make recommendations. He will be leaving tomorrow for a preliminary visit to Cyprus. Her Majesty's Government intend, on his return, to draw up detailed terms of reference.
The new Constitution will not, however, be put into effect until terrorism has been overcome—
Mr. S. O. Davies: By whom? Who started it?
The Prime Minister: —and law and order has been restored. The rate of progress in this constitutional development must, of course, depend on the extent of the co-operation of the people of Cyprus.
Mr. Donnelly: Is the Prime Minister aware that the decision he has just announced about sending Lord Radcliffe to Cyprus is something which should have been done long ago, at the very beginning of this crisis? Is not this another example of the too little and too late policy of the Government? To save something from the wreck, can the right hon. Gentleman make it quite clear to the House that the British Government still stand by the principle of self-determination?
Further, can the Prime Minister make clear to the House that within the preliminary terms of reference which have been given to Lord Radcliffe the possibility of a Greek-elected majority is not ruled out?
The Prime Minister: I must point out that Lord Radcliffe would certainly have been in the island long ago if Archbishop Makarios had felt able to agree to the proposals which we put before him. We thought it desirable—Lord Radcliffe thought so, too, and I am sure it is right—that his preliminary visit to Cyprus should be without detailed terms of reference so that he might have an opportunity himself to survey the scene and then have detailed terms of reference given him when he came back. I am sure that that is the best way to try to get a result.
Mr. Donnelly indicated dissent.
The Prime Minister: The hon. Member shakes his head, but I am quite certain that to give detailed terms of reference to an experienced authority like Lord Radcliffe at this time would be the
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height of folly. It is better for him to survey the scene and when he comes back we can provide terms of reference, of course in consultation with Lord Radcliffe.
Mr. W. Yates: I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether, during the international discussions, the question of joint sovereignty of Cyprus was raised at any of the conferences and also the right of both the Greek Cypriots to be represented in Athens and the Turkish Cypriots in Ankara, rather on the same lines as Malta will be represented here?
The Prime Minister: There have been international discussions. There may be further international discussions. I think it would be unwise for me to elaborate in any detail on those discussions because the only result, as I am sure the House will understand, would be that everybody would fix his position and that would make further discussions more difficult rather than otherwise.
Mr. Gaitskell: Is the Prime Minister aware that, apart from the belated appointment of Lord Radcliffe to begin work as Constitutional Commissioner, the general tenor of his statement will have been received by the House as a whole with great regret? The failure of the negotiations with Turkey leaves agreement on the international plane apparently impossible at the moment. That, I think, is a matter for very great regret, but I should like to ask the Prime Minister three questions arising out of his statement.
First, has he considered, and, if not, will he consider, raising the international issues involved in this matter in the Council of N.A.T.O. since, as he himself said, this position contains the seeds of grave danger to the whole future of the Eastern Mediterranean? Secondly, can he tell us with whom Lord Radcliffe is to consult in the island of Cyprus when he goes there? Thirdly, does he realise that the last two sentences of his statement leave us in the position that if terrorism is not suppressed no progress whatever can be made? Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that the terrorism in the island is the direct result of the refusal of Her Majesty's Government to give any indication to the Cypriot people that the principle of self-determination will be implemented?
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman was for some time a member of a Government which declined to give any indication of self-determination whatever and consistently refused to make any kind of statement on this position at all. While it may lie with other people to blame us, it does not lie with any member of the late Socialist Government.
As to the possibility of starting a Constitution before law and order is restored, the decision we have taken, I should have thought, was the only possible one, not for any political or doctrinaire reasons, but because we cannot hope to negotiate a Constitution in conditions where terror still exists. So we have simply stated an obvious fact, that we are ready to discuss a Constitution. [HON. MEMBERS: "With whom?"] Lord Radcliffe will go out and do all he can and we will prepare the framework of the Constitution, but for it to come into effect there must be the restoration of law and order, without which there can be no Constitution at all.
Mr. Gaitskell: I must press the Prime Minister to make a further effort to answer two of my questions. With whom is Lord Radcliffe to consult about the Constitution? Secondly, will Her Majesty's Government take the international aspect of this problem to N.A.T.O.?
The Prime Minister: We have considered the international aspect and, of course, we have been dealing with it for some time. It is not our intention to raise the matter at N.A.T.O. now. We have, naturally, considered this, but the views of other people have also to be considered, and so far as I know that is the general international view of the matter. As to the other point, which was about consultation, Lord Radcliffe is going out and he will be available for consultation—[HON. MEMBERS: "With whom?"] I think it is reasonable that Lord Radcliffe should have an opportunity for the widest consultation—[HON. MEMBERS: "With whom?"]—both with the Governor and with officials and also with any others who may wish to speak with him.
Mr. Clement Davies: On the vital question of self-determination, which the Prime Minister said was accepted by Her Majesty's Government, are we now to understand that Her Majesty's Govern-
600
ment have abandoned the doctrine of self-determination? Was that at the dictates of Turkey, which has abandoned all rights in this island under the Treaty of Lausanne? It looks very much like giving way to blackmail.
The Prime Minister: I do not think that the right hon. and learned Member should speak of our ally, Turkey, in those words, nor do I think them really justified. At least, we cannot say that our ally Turkey is doing her best to encourage people to murder Cypriots and British subjects.
Major Legge-Bourke: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the statement he has made this afternoon has been received with the greatest possible satisfaction on this side of the House, and will be so received, I believe, among many outside the House? Will he bear in mind that the statement of the Leader of the Opposition and his reference to what led to the present terrorism amounts to one of the most highly treasonable—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]—statements ever made by a member of the Opposition in this country?
Mr. Speaker: Order. When such language is used I think it is a sign that I ought to bring this discussion to a close. The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) has no right to suggest that the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) is guilty of treason. The hon. and gallant Member ought to withdraw that remark.
Major Legge-Bourke: If I have said something which is out of order, Sir, I must, of course, withdraw it.
Mrs. L. Jeger: The Prime Minister showed a great tenderness in his statement for our parvenu ally, Turkey.
Hon. Members: Oh.
Mr. Speaker: Order. This is not a debate. If questions are to be asked they should be listened to and asked with moderation.
Mrs. Jeger: In view of the fact that the Prime Minister omitted any reference to our traditional ally, Greece, from his statement, may I ask whether the views of the Greek Government are completely

601
without interest or relevance to Her Majesty's Government at this time? May I also ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that all the elected representatives of the Cypriots, in local government, trade unions and other organisations, have stated very clearly that they are not prepared to enter into any negotiations at all in the absence of Archbishop Makarios? What steps do Her Majesty's Government propose to take to enable Archbishop Makarios to join in these negotiations, which is the only way in which they can lead to success?
The Prime Minister: It is true that I made no reference to Greece and that these conversations were conducted with Turkey. It is equally true that the previous conversations, which also, unfortunately, did not succeed, were conducted mainly with the Greek Government or with the full knowledge of the Greek Government. We thought that this time we had better try the other end. I think it was right to make the attempt even though, I am sorry to say, it did not succeed.
As to the point about Archbishop Makarios, the differences which Her Majesty's Government had with him were not on the terms of the discussion, though we did not agree about them, but were, as the hon. Lady will remember, on his refusal to denounce violence in any way. If the Archbishop were to take action to denounce terrorism, a new situation would be created. Meanwhile, I have nothing to add to my earlier reply.
Mr. Patrick Maitland: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his refusal to take the matter to N.A.T.O. will give very great relief to many people? Are we to understand, as I hope we are, that from now on the context of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' communiqué, the Norwich speech and the statement today represent the outside limits, as it were, within which Her Majesty's Government will operate?
The Prime Minister: I am not prepared to put any interpretation on my speech beyond the words which I have used in it.
Mr. F. Noel-Baker: Can the Prime Minister say whether or not his statement represents a retreat under pressure from the previously adopted position of Her Majesty's Government recognising the principle of self-determination and envisaging a Legislative Assembly which would be composed in proportion to the populations in Cyprus? Secondly, when is the right hon. Gentleman going to resume contact at least with the chosen representatives of the people of Cyprus, the chief of whom he is still keeping in the Seychelles? Finally, can the right hon. Gentleman say how long he thinks Lord Radcliffe will take to prepare the draft Constitution, and whether, when it is done, there will be private consultations with Governments and other bodies concerned?
The Prime Minister: I dealt with the position about self-determination in my statement just now, when I said—it has been said before; I will repeat it—that the principle of self-determination has been accepted by Her Majesty's Government. There is no change and no retreat in that respect. As to dealing with the Archbishop, I have already answered the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. L. Jeger), and I do not think that there is anything that I can possibly add.
Mr. Gaitskell: In view of the gravity of the statement made by the Prime Minister, will he find time for an early debate on the subject—next week?
The Prime Minister: There is a foreign affairs debate, I understand, the week after next. If the Opposition wish to arrange for a debate on a Supply day, it is in their power to do so.

POLICE PAY (LEGISLATION)
The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Major Gwilym Lloyd-George): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a short statement.
As I informed the House in reply to Questions on 5th July, the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have been exploring the possibility of legislation on police pay. We have now completed our consideration of this matter and I am glad to be able to inform the House that Her Majesty's Government have decided to introduce as soon as practicable legislation which will enable effect to be given to alterations in police pay as from such date as may be agreed in negotiation or as, in default of agreement, may be recommended by the arbitrators.
Her Majesty's Government will consider, in consultation with the police authorities, on whom one-half of the cost would fall, whether it would be possible to include in such legislation a provision making it possible to give effect to the award of last December from 8th September, 1955, as recommended by the arbitration.
Mr. Younger: While welcoming the decision of the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland to introduce legislation with regard to future settlements, and commenting only that there has been a great deal of delay and this might have been done much sooner, might I ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to be kind enough to be a little more precise about the second part of his statement, relating to the award of last December?
It is not a fact that the police authorities, to whom he has referred, and who would have to bear some of the burden, have always expressed themselves as willing to bear the burden if only the technical and legal difficulties could be removed? Is it not also a fact that, if the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had been a little quicker in introducing the legislation, no question of retrospection need have arisen? It is not only because of delay in Whitehall that any difficulties arise. Cannot the right hon. and gallant Gentleman give a firm undertaking that
604
the second matter will be dealt with in the legislation?
Major Lloyd-George: I deplore politics being brought into a matter of this kind. I am bound to point out to the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) that the fault in the legislation was detected in 1948, and that he and his colleagues could have put it right immediately had they so wished. We are now going to do something which they never at any time indicated that they would do. Having said that, I leave the point, because it is not worth discussing.
As to the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, the position, as I understand, is that the authorities, who, after all, pay the police, have indicated so far only that they were not in a position, as indeed they were not, to give effect to the arbitration award. That is one of the things that I propose to discuss with them.
Mr. Callaghan: While thanking the Home Secretary for the first part of his statement, might I ask him to elucidate the second part—
Mr. Pickthorn: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the sensitivity of hon. Gentlemen opposite yesterday about the diverse capacities of the right hon. and learned Member for St. Helens (Sir H. Shawcross), may we be informed in which of his capacities the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) is now purporting to speak?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member was about to ask a question in the capacity that he happened to catch my eye.
Mr. Callaghan: Is it not the case that hon. Gentlemen declare their interest in making speeches, Sir, but not in asking questions? Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman elaborate the second part of his answer? Does he mean that the Government are willing to accept the award of the arbitrators subject to their finding legal means of implementing it?
Major Lloyd-George: We have accepted the first point. The people who pay the police are the police authorities, and it is not in my power to commit them. That is why I deliberately said that I would consider the matter in consultation with the police authorities.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. John Hall.
Miss Herbison: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The statement made by the Home Secretary applies to Scotland as well as England and Wales. Surely an hon. Member for Scotland who has taken an interest in the matter should have the right to ask a supplementary question.
Mr. Speaker: We have just had a supplementary question from the Opposition benches. It is now the turn of the other side of the House.
Mr. John Hall: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that the members of the police forces affected, and certainly all hon. Members who were signatories to the all-party Motion, accept his statement with great appreciation, in no carping spirit but with a feeling of thankfulness?
Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the Home Secretary aware that he is the authority for the Metropolis, and that, therefore, in respect of the Metropolitan Police he does not have to consult anyone else, but can introduce the back pay for them as soon as he likes to do so?
Major Lloyd-George: The hon. and gallant Member will appreciate that that is quite impossible.
Miss Herbison: In view of his reply to a Question on this matter which I asked on Tuesday, may I ask the Home Secretary when these consultations between himself and the Secretary of State for Scotland took place, and whether there was any decision, or any knowledge of the suggestion which has been made today by him, that in these consultations consideration would be given to the decision made in arbitration in December?
Major Lloyd-George: My right hon. Friend and I—he being responsible for Scotland, and I for England and Wales—have, of course, discussed this matter. I am not quite sure that I follow what the hon. Lady had in mind, but we have been in close consultation the whole time.
Mr. Doughty: May I ask my right hon. and gallant Friend two questions. First, what would be the cost of implementing the award of last December? Secondly, will he bring in legislation as soon as possible, as I am sure that all hon. Members on this side desire the award to be implemented at the earliest opportunity?
Major Lloyd-George: The cost is just short of £2 million, half of which is borne by the Exchequer and half by the police authorities. As I have said, I will bring in legislation as soon as possible.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. There is to be legislation.

POLICE PAY (LEGISLATION)

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
  Ordered,
  That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[The Prime Minister.]

  SCOTTISH ESTIMATES
  Committee of Supply discharged from considering the Estimate set out hereunder and the said Estimate referred to the Scottish Standing Committee:
  Class IX, Vote 9, Roads, &c., Scotland.—[The Prime Minister.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [20TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1956–57
    CLASS I

      Vote 4. Treasury and Subordinate Departments
      Motion made, and Question proposed,
      That a sum, not exceeding £2,046,237, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1957, for the salaries and other expenses in the Department of Her Majesty's Treasury and subordinate departments, the additional salary payable to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and the salary and expenses of the Minister without Portfolio.—[£1,350,000 has been voted on account.]
      Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again—[Mr. Heath],—put and agreed to.
      Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  MEMBERS' SALARIES
  4.3 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: I beg to move,
  That this House reaffirms its decision of 24th May, 1954, regarding Members' expenses and pensions and the financial position of junior Ministers, and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to implement it without further delay.
  May I begin, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, by expressing my regret at the indisposition of the Lord Privy Seal which, I trust, will be very temporary, and my appreciation of the fact that the Prime Minister has, at very short notice, come to the House to take his place.
  The Motion which I have just moved was put on the Order Paper so that this debate would take place on a range of subjects covering not only Members' allowances but also pensions and junior Ministers' salaries, and not because we wished to force this Motion to a Division.
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  I should make clear at the start what I think my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) and I made clear in our letter to the Prime Minister; that we did not propose to press this to a Division but would, in fact, withdraw the Motion at the end of the debate. If, by any chance, objection were to be raised to our seeking leave to withdraw the Motion I would, for my part, advise any hon. Members who feel as I do on this matter to abstain from any vote that might be challenged.
  Our reason for doing this, as was also, I hope, made clear in the letter to which I have just referred, is that we believe that a decision without a free vote would make this a party issue, and we do not wish that it should be treated as a party issue. We think that this should be a matter for the House of Commons as a whole and should remain as such, as, I think, in the main, in the past it always has been. The Prime Minister has decided not to allow a free vote. I do not propose to argue about that, but I trust, nevertheless, that if we are not to have a free vote—and, I hope, no vote at all in consequence—we shall, at any rate, have a free discussion.
  I should also like to make it plain that I am speaking here as an hon. Member of the House—not officially for the Opposition, not officially for the Labour Party—in much the same way, indeed, I think I can say in precisely the same way, as my predecessor, Lord Attlee, spoke on 13th May, 1954. Perhaps I should add just this. I feel that the position which I occupy at the moment is one which, like that of Leader of the House, carries with it certain responsibilities, certain concern for the position in the House, and on those grounds alone I think that I am justified in intervening in this debate. I realise that it is possible that my standing here at this Box to speak on this Motion might lead to misrepresentation and misunderstanding, but I am convinced that that is a risk that must be taken because I feel that the situation of hon. Members today is so serious that it must be discussed.
  I also regret the circumstances which have led up to this debate. I believe that all hon. Members will agree with me when I say that talking about their own financial difficulties is about the last thing in the world that they want to do.

  609
  It is embarrassing; it is unpleasant; no one likes to parade grievances. I am sure that all of us would wish that we never had to do this, and that some way could be found of meeting our difficulties without a debate of this kind. But when one is aware that a number of hon. Members are in quite serious hardship, when one believes that the efficient working of Parliament is being affected, when one has anxieties about the consequences on the quality of future aspirants to this House, I think it is one's duty to speak up and to go through the rather unpleasant experience of a debate on our financial position.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker, the developments in 1953 and 1954 are, I am sure, fresh in the minds of most of us and there is no need for me to go over the ground again. We all recall the appointment of the Select Committee, under the chairmanship of the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery, in November, 1953. We recall too, the Report of the Select Committee in February, 1954, and the Government's refusal to accept the recommendations of that Committee. There followed the two debates of 13th and 24th May, in the second of which a Resolution in favour of an increase of £500 a year in Members' allowances, the reference also to the Members' Fund of the question of pensions and a call upon the Government to act upon the matter of junior Ministers' salaries, was passed.
  We recall that that Resolution was carried, on a free vote, by a majority of 114. Thereafter, the Government—unfortunately, as many of us think—declined to accept this decision of the House and introduced, instead, the Sessional allowances for hon. Members of £2 for each of four of the working days—Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. That is the situation in which we are today.
  We raise this issue again, in the first place because that decision of the House was never carried out by the Government and some of us feel that it ought not to be left indefinitely without being implemented. Secondly, we raise it because in the last two and a half years, since the Committee reported, prices, unfortunately, have risen again substantially. May I say one or two words about those two reasons? As to the Government's attitude in refusing to implement the decision of
  610
  the House, I do not myself feel that any adequate explanation really was given. I know that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), who was then Prime Minister, explained, as he was quite entitled to do, that the Government could not be bound by a decision of the House on a Resolution which involved the imposition of a charge.
  Technically, he was right in saying that. But I cannot but feel that it was an unfortunate precedent for a Government deliberately to reject the decision of the House on a free vote by a very substantial majority. Nor was there at the time any explanation given. We were simply told that it was not appropriate "in present circumstances" for the recommendations of the Committee to be adopted, and the same phrase was used when the then Prime Minister was discussing the Resolution carried by the House.
  The right hon Gentleman also added some words, that he did not think that the carrying of the Resolution involved a sufficiently-wide measure of agreement. I felt at the time that that was a rather unfortunate phrase, because it implied that there had to be an absolutely overwhelming majority before anything could be done in a matter of this kind. I think that hon. Members would agree with me that, if that were to be the case, it would be placing in the hands of a very small group of Members a virtual veto of any action being taken in a matter of this kind.
  However, as I have said, there is one encouraging feature about the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford on that occasion. He did not, as I understand, reject the proposals of the Committee or the Resolution of the House indefinitely and permanently. The words which he used were that neither the recommendations nor the Resolution could be adopted "in present circumstances."
  Mr. Charles Pannell: Was not the assumption at the time that the Prime Minister was in favour, but that it was his colleagues who would not let him?
  Mr. Gaitskell: My hon. Friend may have knowledge about that which is not in my mind, but, in any case, I was relying

  611
  entirely on what was said in the House at that stage, and what was said, I repeat, was that "in present circumstances" the Government could not accept the decision of the House.
  The second reason for raising this matter now is the rise in prices which has occurred since then. I would, however, first recall to hon. Members the fact that the introduction of the Sessional allowance was not itself regarded, by, I think, a majority of the House, as really an adequate answer to the problem. It was, of course, accepted as better than nothing, but certainly most, if not all, of those who voted in favour of the Resolution of 24th May, 1954, were dissatisfied with the alternative which the Government eventually introduced.
  The introduction of the Sessional allowance provided hon. Members with not much more than half the increase in pay proposed by the Select Committee, and then, of course, only those who were taking the Sessional allowance were, so to speak, getting full value from it. Since 1954, according to my calculations, the value of £280 a year which, in round figures, is generally said to be the amount of the Sessional allowance, has been reduced by about half by reason of the rise in prices.
  The effect today is that even with the full Sessional allowance of £280 a year the real value of a Member's allowances at £1,280 a year is 20 per cent., or one-fifth, less in real terms than the £1,000 a year to which the allowance was raised in 1946. At the same time, during these last two and a half years, no action has been taken on the pension issue, apart from the very minor concession in the Finance Bill, allowing the contribution for tax purposes; nor, of course, has any action been taken upon the pay of junior Ministers. May I say a few words about these two matters?
  On the question of pensions, it is fair to say that there was no general acceptance in the House among hon. Members of the recommendations of the Select Committee, and the Resolution which was carried made that quite plain. I think that it would also be right to say that there was a widespread desire for a proper pension scheme of some kind, and a widespread feeling that the present
  612
  arrangements under the means test, with the very limited help that was available, were in no way adequate to the needs of the situation. At a later stage certain proposals were put forward in a White Paper for a contributory scheme in which no help whatever was to be provided by the Government. But that scheme was rejected, I think from the start, as being entirely unsatisfactory.
  I know that other hon. Members wish to speak on this subject and particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles), who is a Member of the Members' Fund, in the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Viant), whose sad bereavement keeps him away from the House today. I would only say that it seems to me not unreasonable that there should be for hon. Members who have served many years in this House, a modest pension as of right, comparable to superannuation payment, which is now becoming increasingly common throughout the whole of industry.
  As to junior Ministers, most of them, at present, are paid £2,000 a year, of which £500 a year is for Parliamentary allowance, against which, and to that extent, they can claim expenses. The argument there is a rather different one from that which is put forward in respect of hon. Members. It is a two-fold argument. On the one hand, that the work of junior Ministers is sufficiently important to justify a higher salary, and, secondly, that they are in a particularly difficult position because, if they join the Government while receiving the salary I have mentioned, they give up the right and opportunity to earn money in any other way, and, therefore, many of them, who are presumably earning money in other ways, make a financial sacrifice in doing so.
  I think that the argument generally adduced is what one might describe as an incentive argument rather more than a purely hardship argument, unless one were to say that a salary of £2,000 a year, including £500 for Parliamentary allowance, still leaves a junior Minister in a state of hardship. Of course, the second argument concerning junior Ministers would not apply in the case of those who, previously, have not been earning anything extra. It does not apply in the case of the full-time Member who earns nothing else when he is a back bencher.

  613
  My own view about the position of junior Ministers is frankly this. I agree entirely that some adjustment should be made in their salary, but from my point of view I do not think that one can give it priority over the position of hon. Members generally.
  The general picture today could, therefore, be not unfairly described in the following manner. There was widespread agreement in 1953 and the early months of 1954 that hon. Members were very much underpaid. We did not receive as much increase as most of us thought was fair and reasonable in 1954, but what we did receive has now been to a very substantial extent whittled away by the rise in prices since then. The consequence is that we are drifting back towards precisely the same position as we were in in 1953.
  I do not think that I can do better than read to the House a passage from paragraph 27 of the Report of the Select Committee on Members' Expenses, &c., which describes the position admirably. This is what the Committee said about Members at that time, and I venture to suggest it is just as true today:
  "Some have sold or mortgaged their homes: the savings that others had made before entering Parliament are now exhausted and debts are accumulating: others have sacrificed pension rights which they had established with a company or firm, in whose employ they were before entering Parliament, and are now at an age when it would be difficult, if not impossible, for them to find employment when they leave the House of Commons: some have to refuse invitations to public functions which they ought to attend: in some cases, in order to supplement the family income, the wife of the Member has had to find employment: for a long time some have not been able to afford lunch or dinner in the dining room of the House of Commons and use only the tea room."
  I am sorry to repeat it, but, from my personal knowledge of the position of many hon. Members, it seems to me that that situation again obtains.
  It is a curious fact that as long ago as 1937, when an increase in salary or allowances from £400 to £600 a year was made, Mr. Neville Chamberlain discovered exactly the same situation. If the House will bear with me, I should like to remind hon. Members of what he said. He, together with Mr. Baldwin, had made an investigation at that time into the financial position of Members, and it was as a result of that investigation that the proposal was made, and, of course, carried out, for an increase in
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  salary. This is what Mr. Chamberlain said, speaking, as Prime Minister, in the debate on that occasion, on 22nd June, 1937:
  "We found cases where Members, with the most careful attention to all possible, and a great many undesirable economies, nevertheless were living beyond their means and slowly wasting away the savings that they had accumulated before they entered this House. We found other cases where they were obliged to curtail or to diminish the amount of education that they were giving or hoping to give to their children. We found cases where they were actually giving themselves insufficient food in their anxiety to keep within their means, and there were quite a number of cases where Members admitted that they were unable to give that amount of time to their duties in this House which they would desire to do, because they simply could not afford to spend the whole week in London, with the extra expense which that entailed upon them."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd June, 1937; Vol. 325, c. 1051.]
  It is remarkable how extraordinarily similar is the situation today compared with that in 1937.
  May I now turn to the latest developments in this matter? I do not think that anybody can say that hon. Members have been precipitate in their actions. I must tell the House that shortly after I became Leader of the Opposition I did speak to the Prime Minister about the situation, which I knew to be already serious. He was good enough to suggest that I should talk to the Lord Privy Seal about it, and a number of private discussions followed. Although there was no question of any negotiation or detailed discussion, I was satisfied at that time that the Government were considering the matter seriously. I do not want to say that our hopes were unduly raised, though I must admit that I had at that time rather better expectations than were perhaps justified. This period when we were still hoping for action by the Government lasted from January until May.
  When, finally, after those months had passed, the Government told us that they could not do anything at the moment, we—that is, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery and myself—put forward the proposal for an outside inquiry. We did this, if I may say so, on the principle that finding it impossible to discuss the matter and get anywhere at all, we fell back, not unreasonably, I think, on what is a very common alternative in any industrial negotiations, asking for some kind of external survey of the situation.
  Mr. Percy Daines: On that point, surely it is a fact, which must be within the knowledge of the Prime Minister, that the previous Leader of the Opposition approached the Prime Minister on this question immediately after the General Election. It was subject to continual negotiation before my right hon. Friend took office as Leader of the Opposition.
  Mr. Gaitskell: My hon. Friend may well be right. I must make this plain, that there was no negotiation at all, but it is quite true that in fact, since the Election, there have been more or less continuous contacts of this kind until last May.
  I was speaking about this proposal for an outside inquiry. I have no very strong views about it, but I do not myself think that it should be ruled out altogether. We have had a recent precedent for it in the Commonwealth of Australia, a precedent which, I think, ended not unsatisfactorily from the point of view of Members of the Australian Parliament. However, the Prime Minister rejected that proposal, and it was as a result of his rejection that we decided that we must have this debate which we are having today. We did so, because we felt that it would draw attention to the situation which I have, in part, described.
  I wish to refer, if I may, to one other very serious consequence of the present situation, namely, the effect which I fear it is beginning to have upon the efficiency of the House of Commons. This is to some extent bound up with the issue, so often discussed, as to whether Members of Parliament should be part-time or full-time. We are often lectured by the newspapers and told to get another job in order to earn some extra money. Let us examine that suggestion for a moment.
  There are three points to be made about it, none of which can, I think, be disputed. First, it is a simple fact that only a limited number of Members can do other part-time jobs. If one is in business and can find a congenial partner, it is, of course, possible to do some part-time work in that business. It is possible to be a lawyer in practice at the Bar, though not always very easy, and still play some part in the House of Commons; there are variations in the extent to which those who are barristers do
  616
  come to the House—no doubt with perfectly good reason. It is possible, in some cases, for hon. Members to earn some extra money in journalism, though I venture to suggest that that is a rather overcrowded profession.
  It is impossible for a Member to take on any ordinary salaried job. It is impossible for a miner to go back to the coal mines. It is impossible for an engineer to go back to the bench, or for a factory worker to go and work in a factory again. I think we must recognise this, and we must tell the country that there are very strict limits to the extent to which hon. Members can do other jobs.
  The second point, which, I think, is equally unchallengeable though seldom appreciated, is that the House of Commons simply could not work if everybody had part-time jobs. After all, on Tuesday and Thursday mornings, and sometimes on Wednesday mornings as well, there are, in the normal way, Standing Committees which must be manned; and there are many other meetings of one kind or another which we all have to attend. The plain fact is that if it were not for those full-time Members who carry the burden today, the House of Commons would not function as it ought. That is an important point, and, incidentally, a point which I was interested to find was made with great clarity by Mr. Lees-Smith in the 1937 debate.
  My third point follows from the others. We may not wish to insist on all being full-time politicians—I understand the arguments against that—but we must, surely, have some full-time politicians and we must have sufficient pay and allowances to make it possible for those who wish and who are able to do so to become full-time politicians. That seems to me to be the essential point.
  The situation in which we find ourselves today is affecting the efficiency of the House in these ways. First, it is a fact—at least, as far as our party is concerned—that we are finding it increasingly difficult to man the Standing Committees when there are five of them, at the peak period. We are doing so because although there is a large number of Members who cannot get part-time employment, there are some who can do it if they are very hard pressed, although they may not want to do it. What is

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  happening is that a number of my hon. Friends are being driven precisely into this position, with the consequence that we are finding it increasingly difficult to man these Standing Committees.
  Mr. R. J. Mellish: Would it not be right to say that there is probably a number of Members—I am not one, as I live in London—who live outside London and who, for one reason or another, find it increasingly difficult to come into London and to have to maintain two homes?
  Mr. Gaitskell: I was coming to that as the second way in which the work of the House of Commons is being affected.
  If the Prime Minister talks to his own Chief Whip, I think he will bear out that there is quite a number of hon. Members who simply cannot afford to stay here the full week unless they absolutely must. If there are no Divisions, if it is a quiet day on a Monday or Thursday, they simply stay at home to save themselves the expenses of a hotel in London. That is profoundly unsatisfactory. That is not the way that this House of Commons should be run and I cannot feel that any serious parliamentarian—and we are all serious parliamentarians in that sense; we all love this place—can be satisfied with this situation.
  The third point is that I am afraid there are, or there are bound to be, consequences on the type of people who can come to this House. If one has part-time employment available, well and good, but if not, and with no pension and with all the insecurity and with the heavy expenses involved, and with the way in which prices have risen, it is a tremendous deterrent. That is, again, a bad thing. Nobody wants to have salary and allowances on a scale which attracts people by reason of the amount of money that they will receive—there is no danger whatever of that—but it is a serious matter if the pay is so inadequate that people are discouraged from coming here on that account.
  This is the last point I would venture to make. People look for part-time employment. It is not always desirable that they should do so if it involves their being under obligations to outside bodies and influences of which they had better be independent. Therefore, for all these
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  reasons, we must say that the situation is not at all satisfactory.
  I come, finally, to the point made by the Government. I hope that I have carried the Prime Minister with me in quite a lot of what I have said this afternoon—I know he is concerned about this. He tells us, however, "Well, I am sorry, but we cannot do anything about this now." I should like to make my own position clear on this matter. I do not think anybody will accuse me of not being concerned about the problem of inflation—anybody who has held the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer knows very well what a grave problem it is; and though we may not agree, and frequently disagree, with the Government's economic policy, of course we understand the danger of the situation. I would say that to start with.
  I would go further and say this. If, as some people imply, the attitude of hon. Members in this House to our own pay were to be a decisive issue in the battle against inflation; if, secondly, the Prime Minister were to say, "I am not asking you to wait for long. I am asking you to wait only for a definite specified period"—three months or something of that kind; if, furthermore, he were to assure us that at the end of that period a proper arrangement really would be made and the Government would bring a long-term, permanent solution to this problem to the House, for my part—and I speak as an individual—I would regard that as, at any rate, a discussable proposition.
  I think it fair, however, to add a number of qualifications. So far as the Prime Minister has gone up to now, I do not read that as his intention. If it is his intention, we should be very glad to hear it from him later on. Since 1947, however, wage rates have risen by approximately 65 per cent.; earnings, of course, have risen substantially more. There have been also, during this period, substantial increases in salaries—of teachers, civil servants, judges, and so on.
  The Parliamentary allowances since 1946—a year earlier—have gone up, not by 65 per cent., but—again, I take only the case of somebody drawing the full sessional allowance of £280 a year—by 28 per cent. only. While others have

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  had a considerable increase in real income since the end of the war, we have suffered a cut of 20 per cent. I do not think it is reasonable to say to us, "Although you have had a cut in real income, although others have had an increase in real income"—and there has been much talk about the rise in consumption, and so on—"nevertheless, because there is an inflationary position, you cannot be considered at all."
  I have seen no evidence to the effect that either the trade union leaders or the employers would be likely to be affected by anything reasonable that we were likely to do. If I am wrong about that, I would gladly withdraw it, but so far there has been no evidence of that kind.
  The next point is that we cannot, I am sure the Prime Minister will understand, ignore the past history of all this. We were told in 1954 that the Government of the day could not accept the Resolution of the House "in present circumstances." We have been told now that we should set an example—I understand the argument; but when I asked the Lord Privy Seal the other day in what circumstances he envisaged we would not have to set an example, he referred, curiously enough, to the year 1953–54, the very same year in which the Government turned down the proposals of the Select Committee. That was not exactly reassuring. In the circumstances, we were bound to be rather worried lest—I hope this is not the case—we were simply being, so to speak, held at bay and told, "Well you will get it sometime, but we are giving you no assurances whatever."
  At this stage, I should like to refer to what has happened in Australia. Everybody knows, I think, that the general level of pay and allowances in the House of Commons for Members of Parliament is, in the main, well below that paid in other countries. The evidence is set out in great detail in the Select Committee's Report. I do not want to refer to it except to mention the recent change in Australia, where, as a result of the independent inquiry, the recommendations of which were accepted in toto by the Australian Government, the salary has been put up from £1,750 to £2,350 a year, together with allowances of £600 or £800 a year for expenses according to the position of the Member, all of it subject to tax in the
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  ordinary way although against that income expenses can be claimed.
  Commander Agnew: That is Australian currency.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Yes, but it is, I think the hon. and gallant Member will agree, a quite substantial increase.
  I should like to quote from the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Journal something that Mr. Menzies is reported to have said. This is what the Prime Minister of Australia said in introducing the Measure which carried out the Australian recommendations. It is rather appropriate to us. He is reported to have said that:
  "Since the Report was tabled, an impression had been created in some quarters that Members of the Commonwealth Parliament were leading the way in a new race for salary increases. Nothing could be further from the truth! The facts established that quite the contrary had been the case. In 1952, Members and Senators had received modest increases in allowances which had brought them more or less into line with general rates."
  I cannot think that we even went as far as that.
  "Over the four-and-half years since then, there had been no increases whatsoever. Yet, in that time, as the Report showed, there had been a substantial increase of the general rate of earnings in Australia. There had been major increases in all salaries and wages affected by the last margins award of the Commonwealth Arbitration Court. Salaries throughout the Commonwealth Public Service had risen, and in consequence the salaries of permanent heads of departments had been substantially increased. There had been also a substantial rise in the salaries of judges of the High Court and the Commonwealth Arbitration Court. … This recommendation that the allowances paid to Members of the Commonwealth Parliament be increased was not an extravagant increase to put them ahead of everybody else, but a very modest increase which brought them into line, once again, to some extent, with the general standard."
  I venture to say that to a certain extent we find ourselves in exactly the same position here today.
  I should like to ask the Government a few questions on the prospect for Members. First, are we to assume that if prices go on rising and the position gets worse—and we all hope that this will not happen—there is even less chance of the Government doing anything to help the position of hon. Members? I hope that the Prime Minister will not take that line, because that would make the situation of hon. Members quite impossible.

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  Alternatively, if, as we very much hope, prices are stabilised, will he assure us that we shall not then be told that in consequence of this nothing could be done, so that in this case, also, no action is taken?
  Could he say when he thinks the Government are likely to take action in this matter? Can he give us an assurance that the matter will be dealt with in the autumn? Can he also tell us whether the Government, when they come to deal with the problem—and I assume that they are going to deal with it sometime, and, I hope, fairly soon—will deal with all the problems, including that of pensions as well as allowances and Ministers' salaries? Will the Government give serious consideration to the basic problem here, which is how to avoid the constant trouble of bringing the matter up again and again? All of us would like to avoid these debates. We do not ask for anything unreasonable or extravagant, but we do feel that we are entitled to fair consideration in the light of what has been said.
  Finally, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he can say what procedure he envisages for the further handling of this subject. Will the Government make up their own minds? Will they have further discussions with the leaders of the Opposition? Do they need another committee, or what is their idea?
  I will conclude by quoting paragraph 54 of the Select Committee's Report, which, I think, sets out the matter admirably:
  "In the considered judgment of Your Committee the payment made to Members of Parliament should be of such an amount as to enable men and women from all walks of life to enter their field of public service without finding the financial sacrifice for themselves and their families too great. Your Committee believe that the enduring strength and authority of Parliament depends upon the quality of its members. Qualities of temperament, character, ability and experience are needed. The House of Commons must also be representative of the people and should not be drawn from certain sections only; the field of choice should be wide. Few would support the idea of a House of Commons composed principally of full-time politicians in the sense of men and women cut off from any practical share in the work of the nation. It would be no less damaging to the country if the House were to become a place where Members could not give of their best because of a dominating need to escape from financial pressure."
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  That is the danger which besets us today. I beg the Government not to under-rate it, and I ask them either themselves to bring forward a speedy solution or to allow the House of Commons itself, with its accustomed sense of responsibility, freely to decide the matter.
  4.45 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Sir Anthony Eden): The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell), when he opened this debate, said—and in this I fully agree with him—that it is extremely disagreeable to have to discuss this topic, and I shall try to do it in a spirit which is in accord with what I think is the wish of the House, as if we were talking among ourselves about this problem which besets us. I will try to put the Government's reasons for the position we have taken at this time as clearly and as fairly as I can.
  I should like to begin by thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reference to my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, who I hope will very soon be back leading the House. I feel that this is so much a House of Commons matter that it is my duty as my right hon. Friend is not here, to discuss it with my fellow Members.
  First, the right hon. Gentleman said that it was a pity that there could not be a vote—not a pity that there could not be a vote, but a pity that this matter should in any way become a party matter. I share his view. I have no desire that it should become a party matter. I want to explain at the outset that the reason, which I made clear in my letter in answer to the right hon. Gentleman, we could not allow a free vote was because the motives for our attitude, whether the House thinks them right or wrong, are inherent, in our view, in the present economic situation. If the Government take that view, the Government must take responsibility for carrying that view through. It would be wrong to say that this or that ought to be done in the national interest and leave the matter without any authoritative lead from the Government. That is the reason; not that we want it to be party political, but because that is the view we take.
  I observed this morning in The Times a leading article on this subject which contained two sentences which I cannot help feeling sum up fairly truly what hon.

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  Members feel in different degrees in different parts of the House. These are the two sentences:
  "There are Members on both sides of the House who are convinced that there is a strong case for the remuneration of Members to be raised. In all probability there are on both sides of the House also Members who know in their hearts that whatever should be done cannot be done now."
  That is exactly the position which the Government have to take at the present time. I can assure hon. Members that it is very much easier to come down to the House and say that we are going to take this action and give this increase, and receive the usual acclamation and cheers which would follow; but we have to try to consider this matter, as the right hon. Gentleman quite properly said, in its relationship to the national position.
  I think I must set out one or two facts as they appear to the Government. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Motion of 1954. That, of course, called for three things. First, an increase of £500 in the salary of hon. Members; secondly, that the proposal for a pension scheme should be remitted for advice to the trustees of the Members' Fund; and, thirdly, that the salaries of junior Ministers should be raised. Those were the three recommendations. The issue before the House this afternoon is a very simple one, but I should like, before I talk about the question of our pay, to say a few words about Members' pensions, because as a result of the Motion of 1954, the trustees of the Members' Fund have put before the House plans for a contributory pension scheme.
  Mr. F. Blackburn: We cannot afford that.
  The Prime Minister: I know that different views can be held about whether there should be a pension scheme for Members. If there is to be a contributory scheme, it may be argued, as has already been explained, that hon. Members cannot afford any substantial contribution without an increase in their salaries. The question of such a scheme I accept as part of the wider question of Members' salaries. A full pension scheme would, I think, benefit all hon. Members irrespective of their means, but the matter which gives us most concern and which I want to refer to first this afternoon is
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  the position of former Members and their dependants who are in need. Here, I come to the Members' Fund itself, which is so wisely guided and humanely administered by the trustees. I join with the right hon. Gentleman in expressing sincere regret at the reason why the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Viant) cannot be with us today.
  Last November the trustees made a recommendation, and hon. Members will recall that the House authorised an increase in the scale of benefits. The Government Actuary has reported recently that, as some of us know to be the case, the Members' Fund has a substantial surplus. The trustees may now find it possible to increase the benefit. Furthermore, the Government do not exclude the question of themselves making a contribution to the Fund should the need arise, and should the consequence of that raising call for it.
  I come to the question of Members' salaries. Following the 1954 motion there has been an increase, not of £500, but the sessional allowances, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, and the question we are discussing today is whether we should ourselves further increase that salary this year. The Government view is that this cannot be done, or should not be done, at this moment. I will not deny—I do not deny—that some increase in the salary of Members would be justified now if there were not certain special considerations, but in the Government's view there are special considerations, and they govern this question.
  As the result of a number of measures, some of which the right hon. Gentleman has acclaimed—supported, at any rate—we have now reached a position where we may hope that, with continued restraint on all sides, we may achieve a greater stability in prices. This is something we all want to see. This is something from which we shall all benefit. Last month there was stability. It will be interesting to see—we do not yet know—the figure this month.
  This is not a debate on the economic situation of the nation, and there may be differences, as the right hon. Gentleman says, on how to do battle with inflation—of course there may—but there is this much in common, that our primary aim must be to check it. That is not a matter

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  of party politics. It is a matter of the national interest. We have had further evidence today of the response of another section of industry to the need for stability, and there are the reports I mentioned at Question time, and the statements put out today, all of which, I think, will make further contributions towards stability, and I hope that more in this strain will follow.
  I need not tell the House after that that an increase here at this time in the full glare of publicity, in which we have to live as Members of Parliament, whether we like it or whether we do not, cannot but have its effect at once on other sections of the community, at a time when we are urging restraint. In this respect we hold a special position, because we are the cynosure of all eyes at all times. I do not think, therefore, that Members of Parliament can be compared exactly to any other salaried person or official or profession. We are in this special position, and we must not be the ones to set the spiral working again. I ask hon. Members to consider how the nation would view that action at the present time in the light of the appeals which have been made and the responses which are being made to those appeals.
  Mr. Mellish: The right hon. Gentleman is saying that we have achieved stability, or are achieving it, and that we must set an example, but, as my right hon. Friend asked, what happens if we do not achieve stability? Wages will rise. Do we ever get an increase, too?
  The Prime Minister: We are making this effort now, which is within the knowledge of the House and the nation, and the argument I am presenting to the House—and it is a serious one—is that if we take this step at this moment it will be interpreted by the nation as a whole that we do not take the serious view we do take of the battle against inflation. I do not think I can put it more simply than that.
  I am not committing myself, I do not want to commit myself, to maintaining this position for one moment longer than seems to us absolutely necessary, but at this moment and in this climate for this House to take this action would, I am sure, be helpful neither to us nor to the nation. It is, no doubt, true that there
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  are a number of Members in the House—I know there are, on both sides—for whom this is a serious matter, very serious indeed. I wish it were within our power to take action now.
  I myself do not think it would be right for the salaries of Members of Parliament to be linked with the salaries of civil servants. I do not think that is right. I think we are in a different category. Nor on balance do I think it right that there should be an outside inquiry into the salaries of Members of Parliament. When a decision can be taken I think it should be taken and will be taken on the responsibility of the Government. [Interruption.] An hon. Member asks, "When?" I cannot tell him, but it will be at the first moment we think that it is fair, in relation to what we are attempting to do, to take that decision. That is the utmost that it is within the power of anybody who is Prime Minister at this time to say. I would gladly say more if I did not think it would imperil even graver issues than the salaries of Members of Parliament.
  That is the decision we have taken, and I regret we have to take it, but I am sure we have no choice in the matter at all. I should not like the House on that account to think—I am sure it does not think—we do not all of us know something of the problems the present situation creates, but it creates them for an even wider circle than Members of Parliament, and if this attempt we are making to achieve stability in prices is to have the best chance of success I cannot today give a definite undertaking of time or date when we shall do it, except that there will be no delay beyond what we believe to be necessary in the broadest national interest.
  4.58 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: No one is capable of saying "No" with more charm and less argument than the right hon. Gentleman. He has spoken with great charm and moderation, and I would be the last person to try to introduce a little controversy into this matter which, he says, is so uncontroversial. Indeed, the suggestion he put forward, that we have to keep this matter entirely outside the ambit of party controversy, while he puts on the Whips every time, seemed to me a somewhat astonishing suggestion, and one which really does fall into the

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  category of the old story of the man who, charged with patricide and matricide, pleaded for leniency on the ground that he was an orphan.
  I want to make my own reply, since each of us is speaking for himself, to one observation which the right hon. Gentleman made. He asked, what would the country think about this? I represent a marginal constituency. My political prospects are never secure. I have to consider the interests of my constituents in every matter, because I have only a narrow majority.
  I have spoken to my constituents, and I have advocated a substantial rise. I have spoken on the Floor of the House about this and have appeared on television and advocated it, and I have not had a single letter from anybody who suggests that he or she disagrees with the proposition. That, at least, is the evidence that can be given on behalf of one large and important industrial constituency as to constituents' views on this matter.
  At the height of the controversy about old-age pensions about two years ago, when hon. Members on both sides of the House were urging an increase which was finally granted, I attended a meeting of old-age pensioners. I was asked by one old-age pensioner, "Do you think that you should be talking about raising your own salaries when old-age pensioners are waiting?" I said that I agreed that their claims should come first and, when I had given the facts about my own position, he got up and said, "I am sorry that I asked the question. I hope that you get your rise." That, from a man of eighty living in poverty, is an indication of the sort of view one expects the British public to take on this issue.
  It is constantly said that it is unpleasant that we have to decide this ourselves. I have managed to extract somehow from the capitalist system a sufficient subsistence to enable me to stay here and be a full-time Socialist. Therefore, I am not facing a financial difficulty. I will be quite frank about it. I rely on the generosity of partners who have been associated with me in my profession for a great many years and who treat me with a generosity which I probably do not deserve. I have to decide how to vote, at the discretion of my colleagues,
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  who are working just now whilst I am here, and who have no such subsistence.
  The real difficulty of this decision must be the difficulty that applies to many hon. Members who are wealthy or have large incomes but somehow find it possible to say that in the national interest they are going to condemn their colleagues to the endurance of miserable poverty. I have considered the arguments against the proposal with all sincerity. There is one case against it which I could put and which is nearly decisive against it. It is that this House is a thoroughly bad employer of labour.
  I think that the House heard with a gasp of astonishment the other day the wages that we are paying to kitchen porters, waitresses and waiters on whom we rely on a higher standard of discretion and courtesy than is demanded from employees in any other establishment; and I was shocked by the argument put forward that they are willing to accept the wages. I hope that the Kitchen Committee will put that right straight away. Until it is put right, I shall find it very difficult to think that I can vote myself money whilst we are tolerating people having salaries of that kind.
  It is put time after time that this payment of Members was some innovation brought into our procedure by the Liberal Government of 1906, to which, if he is called, I am sure the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) will make reference. But the payment of Members is part of the habitual practice of this House, and always has been. I have not come armed today with dates or with aids to historical accuracy. I remember a counsel who quoted a Statute rather vaguely. When the learned judge asked for the reference he replied, "I cannot give the precise reference, m'lud, but I know that it was passed in the reign of an Edward or a Henry." I am prepared to say, at least, that this was passed in the reign of an Edward, and an early Edward.
  Members for the shires got 4s. and members for the boroughs 2s. a day, but that, of course, was before a Tory Chancellor had tried to control the cost of living. It was in fact possible to live on that pay, and it was often regarded as so substantial that some boroughs refused to pay it to the Treasury. The result was that there was developed a special writ

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  which was called "De expensis bergensium levitandi." It enabled the Member to go to a court and ask it to levy upon the revenues of the borough his expenses for coming to the House and his arrears of pay. Lord Campbell expressed the view round about 1860 that that writ had not been abolished and that it would still he possible to demand some reimbursement for Members from the rates. I am not making a threat. I am merely carrying on the historical argument.
  Payment was sometimes made in money and sometimes in kind. A famous Member took a cade and a half of herring a year for his salary, that is, 1,080 herring, but Members did not attend for very long in those days. The House did not sit many days a year. That payment was abolished by the most corrupt of Parliaments, that of Charles II. Most of the Members were receiving private subsidies, not only from the King of England, but also from the King of France. The great and distinguished founder of the Churchill fortunes, the famous man to whom the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) has paid a brilliant tribute in a brilliant biography, was then laying the foundations of his fame by an adroit jump from the bedroom window of the King's mistress.
  The great Samuel Pepys, who has risen very much in the esteem of our people as a result of the researches done recently into his life, commented on 30th March, 1668, that the standard of Member had gone down since payment had ceased. He deplored that payment had been abolished because, when a borough had to pay its Member, it went out of its way to find someone who would do his duty diligently and effectively.
  I think that Oldham has the right to say to its Member, "We send you to Parliament and we pay you and we expect you to give every priority to our affairs and not to your own interests." As Parliament is run today, with Standing Committees every morning, business every day, meetings in Committee Rooms every hour, and with those of us who take an interest in colonial affairs meeting almost daily and hour by hour, the Member who absents himself habitually from the House is merely committing a mean and contemptible fraud upon his fellows, because someone has to take on additional burdens and labours in his absence and has to do his work.
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  Our job is here. It is a matter for the conscience and decision of each hon. Member as to what other work he can undertake. It has always been rather accepted that a barrister practising in London can do some work at the courts, but a barrister practising in Edinburgh cannot possibly attend court. Perhaps a solicitor can go to his office in the morning and come to the House in the afternoon, but I do not think that the House gains greatly by the additional experience which a man practising his profession is supposed to be able to contribute to our debates. When his professional experience is needed, he is quite often not here anyhow. But that is a matter for the conscience of every Member, and every liberal-minded Member would resent any interference by the Whips or by the parties or by the Government which was intended to impose too strict a control upon the activities of each Member.
  The Prime Minister coupled most of his remarks with a somewhat astonishing statement about our economic situation, which has fluctuated somewhat in the oratorical efforts of right hon. Gentlemen opposite over the last two years. But it might interest the House to know that when, at long last, the actual payment of Members was restored, and of course every hon. Member knows perfectly well that from the time of abolition until the reintroduction of payment, members were paid on selective draft either shares in the South Sea Bubble enterprise or tickets in the state lottery, or with one of the scores of sinecure offices.
  Many of the statesmen of the Regency period had their debts paid by Parliament when they required it, and no one saw anything wrong in that in the days when the Earl of Durham said that a man could jog along on £30,000 a year. It was virtually impossible for a poor man to come to the House. One exception was Creevey, who managed on the principle that he never fed at home. He breakfasted, lunched and dined out, passing from one big house to another, enjoying the hospitality of the period. And those were good days to live in if one happened to be a member of the upper class. For a long period, of course, the Irish Members lived on the bounty of their constituents who had funds to contribute, and the first working class member, Mr. Thomas Burke, had the same.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: The Labour Members for a long time had their payments made up by the trade unions.
  Mr. Hale: Yes, that was the case. I am obliged to my right hon. Friend. One also remembers that the early Labour Members had to live almost collectively together in rooms to reduce the expense.
  When I heard the Prime Minister speak today, I wondered where I had heard it before. By the courtesy of one of my hon. Friends, I sent to the Library for the HANSARD which records the first Motion for the payment of Members proposed in 1909. The First Commissioner of Works, Mr. Lewis Harcourt, speaking on behalf of the Government, said:
  "I will now pass for a few moments to the more contentious part of this Motion. The late Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, standing at this box two years ago, said, on behalf of the Government, that he cordially agreed with this principle, but he also added that he found himself subject to limitations both of time and money. I am sorry to say that we find ourselves no less short of either of those commodities. As to time, the situation is somewhat eased by the terms chosen by my hon. Friend in his Motion. He proposes to postpone until the introduction of a general Reform Bill the dealing with this specific matter, and, as we are all well aware, a general Reform Bill is more appropriate to the end of a Parliament, a date which is still somewhat remote."
  That was a somewhat optimistic statement to make in May, 1909—
  "As to money, I shall be able to inform my hon. Friends better on that question after the passage of the Finance Bill, and again still better at the conclusion of the present financial year. In the financial exigencies of the country I could not pledge the Government to make this provision under present circumstances. …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th May, 1909; Vol. 4, c. 1917–18.]
  They have always been in favour, in principle—always. And there has always been an economic crisis—always. The Labour Government passed the last real increase in 1946, when a very great many Labour Members had come here. I dislike arguing ad hominem, and I always try to avoid it, but on this occasion I am glad to talk of one of my colleagues who came to this House as senior Member for Oldham in 1945.
  Just what happened? I saw him come here. He was a man of great integrity, of great sincerity, and with a passionate desire to serve. I think perhaps it was a tragedy that he came here a little too late. Had he come here ten years before,
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  he would have been a very distinguished Member of this House. He had a wife and family in Wigan living in a council house. He had to come down here and pay hotel expenses on four nights a week at an hotel in Russell Square. He had to bear all the expenses which bear down upon any hon. Member. He had to maintain a home in Wigan and support his family and partake in what activities of the House he could. I can say now that I sought to help him, but he was too honest and too sturdy an individual to accept any help of that kind from any individual. He had to write every letter himself, and he was not a man with long clerical experience, though he had a good brain and great ability.
  After five years of that life, he was struck down by a stroke which left him paralysed until he died. We had to persuade him over some months, with the full consent of the people of Oldham, to defer a resignation that was inevitable so that he could continue to receive a moderate salary. In the end, his wife died shortly after him as a result of the accumulated strain.
  Sir, this is not the way to treat our public men. The right hon. Gentleman must know that it is not possible for anyone who has a home in the country to maintain himself today in an hotel in London and to perform his Parliamentary duties on this salary. I have said, and I make no bones about it, that I return the whole of my salary as expenses. I do, in fact, spend in that way the whole of my Parliamentary salary, and I do not think there is much extravagance in so doing. I have given up a full-time secretary and instead have the services of a first-class secretarial agency. Their bill for this year will require nearly £400 of that salary as a start.
  One has to contribute to some of the constituency costs. One has to maintain a standard of hospitality here. I cannot think that any hon. Member on either side of the House would not wish to offer some modest hospitality when distinguished people come from his constituency or people come to consult him on constituency business.
  Of course, we get the cost of travelling to our constituencies, but not to the constituencies of other people. So there is the burden of travelling expenses, of

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  postages, of trunk calls. All these things are going up in price, and everybody else has had a rise. You know, Sir, that the House of Commons has been unusually generous in this respect. We have always, very rightly, declined to frustrate or oppose any proposals for the benefit of anyone else on the ground that we were being badly treated ourselves. It is right that we should do so, but in the course of the last few years, we have granted rises to many people much better off than we are—[HON. MEMBERS: "Last night."] Yes, of course.
  What is this financial problem? Let us look at it. The original proposal for the payment of hon. Members envisaged a total expenditure of about £200,000 a year. It is obvious that £300,000 a year today could provide a rise of £500 for every hon. Member. We have just increased the subsidy to the Covent Garden Opera Company by £70,000, making it in all £270,000 a year. I do not oppose that, I think it is money well spent. I do not raise it as a point of criticism, but is it really in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman to say that this very small increase in public expenditure will produce an economic crisis?
  To be fair to the right hon. Gentleman, of course he does not say that. What he does say, to be fair to him, is that if it is given to us, other people will say they must have it too. It never has been so. Let the right hon. Gentleman put the proposal through on a simple basis. Let him say that Parliament in its wisdom in 1911 passed a salary of £400 a year to each Member of Parliament—I keep on using the word "salary" but, of course, it is not a salary, it is substantially an expense allowance. Let the right hon. Gentleman say, "We will bring it up to that sum of £400 again, which now represents £1,700 a year." What possible excuse can there be for saying to hon. Members, "We ask you to go on accepting year after year a sum which, in purchasing power, gives less than Parliament carried by an overwhelming majority in 1911." So long as the right hon. Gentleman takes that attitude, I think he is being unfair and unjust to the House. I do not want to put the matter in any unnecessarily controversial form.
  Many of us are not in need of an increase—not myself, I had better say—but those who are not in need of an in-
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  crease are, by their vote and action, depriving colleagues in the gravest need. Some I know are having to borrow money, some have had to mortgage houses. I have myself negotiated some of these things, and so I know they are happening. Some have had to surrender life insurance policies and commute savings made for their old age. They are being compelled to do it.
  I conclude by saying that, in my opinion, the generous-hearted, decent people of Britain are not influenced by articles written by journalists with their expense allowances of £6,000 or £7,000 per year—
  Mr. Mellish: The Daily Express in particular.
  Mr. Hale: The people of Britain are the most generous-hearted on the face of the earth. I do not believe that they want us to grudge ourselves the elementary comforts of life, nor do I think that any sane man would wish to see us deprived of the necessary clerical assistance which is essential to the full and proper performance of our duties.
  5.20 p.m.
  Sir David Gammans: I should like to pay my tribute to the temporate way in which the Leader of the Opposition opened the debate. He has set a standard which we should all try to follow during the debate.
  In this matter, I find myself in the same sort of dilemma as many hon. Members on both sides of the House. For example, I entirely agree with the Prime Minister that this moment is not the right time for us to consider increases in pay for Ministers, junior Ministers, or Members of Parliament, for the reason which he has given. We are all trying to stabilise the cost of living, and the only way we can do that is to persuade labour to stabilise wages. It would not be much use for the Prime Minister to exhort trade unionists to take this course of action or for employers to stabilise dividends or reduce prices if the House of Commons at the same time granted Members of Parliament an increase in salary.
  The other side of the dilemma which worries me is that that decision, right as it may be in present circumstances, does not solve the problem, one which

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  all of us know to exist, that of how Members of Parliament are to live in the conditions which appertain today. I hope we have got beyond the stage when people say such things as "Why pay them anything at all?", or what I always think is an equally ridiculous thing to say, "You came here at £1,000 a year. If you did not like the money, why did you come here?" That is a very stupid thing to say, and I hope it is not the consideration which will enter into our discussions today.
  The only consideration which really arises is, as the Prime Minister said, that we are agreed that something ought to be done, but we cannot agree as to when is the time for it and what is the way in which to do it. I do not think it is much use comparing present conditions with conditions in the nineteenth century or even at the beginning of this century. Comparing what exists now with what existed in the past, Parliament has, in its wisdom, created an entirely different state of society in four very distinct respects. First, we have agreed that no man should be excluded from the House merely on grounds of wealth; in other words, the right to membership of this House should not be restricted to those who have money before they come here. The second difference is that membership of this House, as the Leader of the Opposition said and as the Prime Minister admitted, is virtually a full-time job.
  The third is that, in so far as membership of the House may not be a full-time job, there are very few part-time jobs which, as the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) pointed out, can be joined with membership of the House. A man may be connected with a family business, in which case his partners will probably help him. He may be a barrister or an established journalist. He may be a solicitor. He may earn something as a company director or as a trade union official. If he is not in that category—after all, the category must represent a relatively small percentage of hon. Members—what is a Member to do? What is he to do if he is a coal miner, a railway worker, a farmer, a commercial traveller or a young executive in a business in the North of England? There is no job that such a man is fitted to do that he can combine with membership of the House.
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  The last difference is that taxation is at such a level today that it is impossible for a man in ten or fifteen years to accumulate a sum of money upon which he can live while he is a Member of Parliament. I always remember the story of the late Rev. F. E. Smith, who made enough in ten years to enable him to come into the House. Even in the most favourable circumstances, that could not be done today. In all those respects, conditions are quite different from what they were at the beginning of the century.
  It is no good either for people to put forward the argument that, if one pays Members of Parliament enough to live on, one is turning politics into a career. It is a career now, but a very poorly paid one. The career argument can be used the other way round. If we are to exclude, by reason of their occupation, large numbers of people from coming here, because if they come here they cannot live, then we are depriving ourselves of some of the most useful types of men that we ougth to have here.
  I cannot imagine, for example, a young doctor with a family, a young engineer or technician, or an executive in a growing business coming here. We are not too well blessed with that type of person in the House, and we could do with far more of them as Members. That sort of man would be doubly foolish if he risked everything to come here on what is, after all, a very inadequate salary in, I suppose, one of the most hazardous of occupations that one could imagine.
  I want to say a word about junior Ministers, if for no other reason than that I was one for just over four years. As the Leader of the Opposition said, they draw only half their Parliamentary salary and they get no sessional allowance. They have also to give up any other income which they may have earned before they came here. I should say, without the slightest hesitation, having tried it, that a man who remains a junior Minister for any length of time has to make a choice; he must be a man of some private means, or he must finish up in debt. It is a great pity that we have to restrict our choice of junior Ministers to men with private means or men who are prepared to run the risk of finishing up in the bankruptcy court. Incidentally, I have never been able to understand why junior Ministers should draw only half their Parliamentary salary and senior Ministers none of it,

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  when we have always understood that the Parliamentary salary was given to them primarily to enable them to carry on their work as Members of Parliament.
  The last thing I want to do, and I hope we shall refrain from doing it in the debate, is to put forward hard luck stories, because it is a fact that in this discussion the daily Press is, on the whole, hostile to us—
  Mr. C. R. Hobson: Some of it.
  Sir D. Gammans: A large part of it is. The greater part of the daily Press and a large part of vocal public opinion—I am not talking about the non-vocal part—is hostile to any increase in pay to Members of Parliament.
  Two things always strike me about the matter. First, a large percentage of our colleagues in the House—although we may differ in politics, we are, nevertheless collagues—are never seen in the Dining Room, and for a simple reason. I know what it is; they cannot afford it. Secondly, we are increasingly called upon to entertain Members of Parliament from overseas. One of the most pleasing features of the past few years has been growing communication between the Members of the Commonwealth in all parts of the world, men whom we ought to get to know and to whom we are the virtual hosts while they are here. They are certainly hosts to us when we are in their countries. The fact is that many hon. Members cannot afford to do the most simple entertaining for those men.
  I find those things extremely distressing, and I should like to feel that we could do something about them. Some of the hostile public opinion expressed in the Press and elsewhere mainly arises from the fact that the average member of the public simply does not understand what Members of Parliament do and what expenses they are called upon to incur. I am very glad that the Leader of the Opposition said that he does not propose to press this matter to a Division. Something far more than the question of our salaries is at stake. What is at stake is the prestige and dignity of Parliament.
  Somehow or other we have to try to remove this controversy from sordid considerations. I wish that we could remove it almost from debate on the Floor of the
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  House. I feel, as I know many hon. Members do, that in the very nature of things this must be a somewhat undignified debate. We realise that, and we do not like it any more than anyone else. The only part of the Prime Minister's statement with which I am in some disagreement was that suggesting that he was not prepared to refer the matter to an outside committee. I shall not make any suggestion about how it should be done, but I have always believed that the danger of referring the matter to a Select Committee is the disadvantage that we are really considering our own salaries and recommendations made by a Select Committee and suffer from that great disadvantage.
  I have often wondered whether it is so revolutionary to recommend that some outside body of three or four eminent people should look at all the conditions of membership, not merely salaries, but amenities, pensions, privileges and all the other things which concern us. Such a committee would consist of perhaps the Governor of the Bank of England, the chairman of the T.U.C., the President of the F.B.I. and perhaps one other, perhaps the President of the Royal Society. Some body of men of that sort could look at this sort of matter from a very wide angle, understanding quite naturally that no Government could possibly be bound by it.
  I was attracted by the view of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, who said that he had nothing definite to put forward but felt that it would be an advantage if the whole matter were studied from outside.
  Mr. C. Pannell: Whatever may be the merits as between a Select Committee and a distinguished body such as the hon. Member has mentioned, the difficulty is not in making recommendations. The facts are well known. The trouble arises because of the failure of the Government to implement an honourable decision of the House and the general expectation that they would have been bound by a free vote of the House. There is no guarantee that the hon. Member's honourable body would get any more respect than a Select Committee.
  Sir D. Gammans: I do not think it is as simple as that. As the Prime Minister pointed out, in a matter of this sort,

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  which concerns our own salaries, it is no good the House ignoring public opinion and saying that it does not matter.
  Mr. Pannell: Or over-rating it.
  Sir D. Gammans: Or over-rating it; but it is no good under-rating it. The advantage of what the Leader of the Opposition suggested, that we should have a body of men, not hon. Members, to make recommendations, is that the public would more readily accept that than if the recommendations were made by hon. Members. The only thing about which I am anxious is that this matter should be settled in such a way that the dignity of Parliament is upheld and settled in a manner worthy of Parliament's long history and traditions.
  5.35 p.m.
  Mr. Frank Bowles: I agree with the hon. Member for Hornsey (Sir D. Gammans) that the dignity of the House should be upheld. To be a Member of this House is the greatest honour that our fellow countrymen can pay us. I noticed that the Prime Minister referred to The Times, as I expected he would. In its leading article today—I thought it particularly miserable—it said that the House should not by any act of its own drive down the £ still further.
  The Prime Minister read two other quotations of what I thought was a most pompous and smug leading article. It would not have been so smug if The Times attacked those companies who report increased dividends. I should like to hear of The Times refusing to take money for publishing reports of companies which increase dividends. So long as it does not do that, we need not take its criticisms very seriously. We are supposed to be stopping an increase in Members' salaries because other people might follow in our footsteps. I do not think for a single moment that the leaders of the trade unions in this country will stop their claims for increased wages just because we do not press our claim. That should be clearly understood.
  I saw on the main page of The Times—and our whole trouble is supposed to be that inflation makes it difficult to export; we have heard that over and over again, but I am not sure that the
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  Government understand it—that the June figures for exports of British manufactures are the second highest on record. The total for the first part of 1956 was 14 per cent. higher than for the first half of 1955. In other words, inflation is not at all killing our export trade. We may have a balance of payments problem because the Government do not sufficiently stop imports coming in, but nevertheless we are able increasingly to export and to reach the second highest figures on record.
  I should like to apologise for the absence of the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Viant) who has had a sad family bereavement and who intended to speak. I modestly hope that I can speak in his place as one of the trustees of the Members' Fund. I have been going into some figures which may surprise the House. I am sorry that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is not present, because he knows something about the discussions which we have had with him and with the Lord Privy Seal, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, over the last few years. Some of my figures I would put under the heading of, "How the Exchequer gains from M.P.s."
  In the last twenty years in unclaimed salaries the Exchequer gained £37,510 and in by-elections saved £46,300. For the sessional allowances which started only two years ago, the figures of those undrawn are about £28,700 for 1954–55 and £9,700 for 1955–56. The right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) in his Select Committee Report recommended that hon. Members should have £1,500 a year. That was not granted and instead the Government introduced a Sessional allowance of £2 a day for the four sitting days each week. The saving by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in not implementing the recommendation for £1,500 a year in 1954–55 was no less than £114,000 and in 1955–56 it was £187,500.
  M.P.s are self-employed persons and accordingly pay 8s. 5d. a week instead of 6s. 9d. as National Insurance contributions. That is a saving of £2,730 a year. It is true that against this must be set about £2 10s. in extra allowances for Income Tax purposes in expenses, which is £1,575, but the Government's net gain is still £1,155. For the eight years during which this scheme has operated

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  the total saving therefore amounts to £9,240.
  I am sorry that there are so many figures, but I want to have them on the record when the Chancellor of the Exchequer tries to tell the House that he has no money. I should explain that Members receive no unemployment insurance benefit, and because of that the Exchequer saves 6s. a week in employers' contributions. That works out at £9,828 a year, and for the last eight years, therefore, the Treasury has saved £78,624.
  I should like to go back to the figure of £9,828 which is saved by the Government because they are not our employers. When the trustees, upon the instructions of the House, raised the question of the pensions scheme with the Government Actuary, he said that we needed £235,000 in order to start it, with full rights for all Members, irrespective of their previous service. The Home Secretary is a great mathematician, although he has not yet been Chancellor of the Exchequer, and will know that 4 per cent. of £235,000 is about the amount which the Government save by reason of the fact that they do not employ Members.
  The next time the Financial Secretary or the Chancellor says that if only somebody could show him the way to get enough money to start a pension fund, we must point out to him that the Government save enough money to establish such a pension fund by reason of the fact that they do not have to pay the 6s. a week employers' contribution. That goes part of the way towards bridging the difficulties about the establishment of a pension fund. I should say that all the figures which I have read out add up to £511,000, or over half a million pounds, and that is what the Exchequer has gained from Members in one way or another.
  The next thing to remember is that the Government's policy of a high Bank Rate has depreciated the capital in the Members' Fund from £80,090 to £69,786, which is a loss of 12½ per cent. The capital assets in the fund have fallen by £10,300. The Government have gained more than £500,000 and, incidentally, have knocked down our fund's capital by over £10,000.
  In case Members have forgotten the position in respect of the Members' Fund,
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  I should point out that we are allowed to pay an ex-M.P. a maximum of £300 a year. Let us assume that he has served for ten years. If he is receiving an income of £75 or less per year from other sources, it is not taken into account, but the most that he can get from the fund is £300. Reference has been made to such people as Cecil Poole and Maurice Webb, who died not long ago in complete poverty. My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) has referred to the case of an old colleague of his.
  These cases come from both sides of the House. I know of a case concerning a man who was a Member for twenty-five years and whom everybody thought was well off, but whose widow has applied to the fund. There is a lot of disguised poverty among Members on both sides of the House. People are naturally rather anxious not to say too much about their own cases and we, as trustees of the fund, are bound in confidence not to mention any names. Hon. Members would be surprised if they knew the kind of person who, having retired and not stood as a candidate at the last Election, comes to us with no funds at all, or with a miserable £75 or less in the Post Office. It is quite clear that Members cannot save, and many ex-Members or widows of ex-Members are receiving payment from the fund. The widow is entitled only to £255 a year, assuming that she has an income of £75 or less from other sources.
  We have to apply a very strict means test. If a man is receiving National Assistance and that assistance is increased, we have to decrease our payment accordingly. We once asked George Buchanan, the former Chairman of the National Assistance Board, to meet the trustees of the fund, and we found that a most extraordinary situation existed. We were both acting upon the same principle of a means test and, therefore, if the Assistance Board raised the amount received by an ex-Member we had to knock off an equal amount from what we paid him. It is very unpleasant for the trustees to have to make an annual inquiry into the financial position of ex-Members—including ex-Cabinet Ministers—or their widows. The maximum we can pay is £300, and if a person is in receipt of more than £75 from other sources we can pay him only

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  so much as will make his total income £300.
  In 1948 an ex-Member, with ten years' service, and in the same position, received £250 a year, and £150 a year in 1938, but as the £ is now worth only about one-third of what it was in 1938 we should certainly be paying at least £450 a year. All this time the £12 contribution has not been altered. Under the provisions of the Finance Bill of this year Members are being allowed for the first time to count that £12 as an expense against Income Tax. That is important, because it raises another possibility. Those who were in the House when the scheme started in 1936 will remember that the great idea of Mr. Baldwin, Mr. Chamberlain and Sir John Simon, who was Chancellor of the Exchequer, was that the taxpayers should not be affected either way.
  In other words, Members' contributions could not be used to count as an expense against Income Tax, and payments out of the fund were paid free of tax. This £12 will be allowed for the first time as an expense for Income Tax purposes, and there is a possibility that the Special Commissioners may rule that payments out should be taxable. It is quite likely that they will do so, in view of the fact that in the old days the idea was to keep the fund entirely apart from all questions of Income Tax. The Commissioners may now rule that since payments in may be counted as expenses, payments out should be made liable to Income Tax.
  If they do so it will mean that the £80,000 in the fund will be doubly taxed. I hope that I have made myself clear. It is difficult to explain the position. Obviously the sums of £12 which each Member has paid each year since we have been here in order to build up this £80,000 fund have not been allowed to count as an expense against Income Tax. Future payments will be. But if the £80,000 already in the fund is taxed when paid out it will mean that we are paying the tax twice over, and the recipients will be denuded of a sum up to a maximum of £25 a year.
  As I have said before, it is quite impossible for hon. Members to save. My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West and others have suggested—as Earl Attlee suggested when he was here—that many hon. Members cannot afford not
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  to stand for re-election. Mr. Attlee, as he then was, said that some Members were dying on their feet, and that is not an exaggeration. When Members disappear without having resigned we can understand what kind of straits they are in. I believe that a proper pensions scheme is certainly as necessary as a proper increase in salary, or, as Earl Lloyd-George insisted on calling it, allowance.
  As one becomes older, one realises the importance of an adequate pension scheme. I am sure that at 21 most people do not think of the possibility of being pensioned, or of death. Few people at that age think of taking out life insurance policies. But as hon. Members get older they realise the importance of an adequate pension scheme. I have shown to the House, and I am sure that someone in the Treasury will read my figures, that a pension scheme could be founded on those amounts the Government save by not having to pay the employer's insurance contribution in respect of Members of Parliament. That would be the interest on the £235,000 which the Government Actuary said was necessary.
  Although this Motion refers only to the figures in the 1954 Motion, I believe that the salary of Members of Parliament should be £2,500 a year and that their pension should be £500 a year. Although the Prime Minister does not seem to like the idea, I think that they should be tied in some way to the salary bracket of senior civil servants, so that we do not have to go through this miserable, undignified perennial argument, and expose to the public the poverty of Members of Parliament. I hope that the Government can do something, and the sooner the better.
  5.52 p.m.
  Major Sir Frank Markham: I am sure that no one will disagree with me when I say that all hon. Members were profoundly interested in the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. Speaking for myself, I found his facts incontrovertible and his conclusion inescapable. But I am not so interested in the immediate position of this House, and of hon. Members, as in the future. I look with some alarm at the tendency today for the entrants into politics being constricted into ever narrowing channels. We have to recognise that Parliament is the greatest power point in the whole of

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  the British Empire. Our decisions affect every phase of our lives, whether political, economic or, in many cases, domestic. Therefore it is essential that we should recruit into this House the finest characters and talents in the country.
  Yet, as I have said, the field of recruitment is so narrow that we find when we inquire among our younger men—men of exceptional business capacity, or professors in the universities, men of high calibre—and ask, "Why do not you stand for Parliament?" we nearly always get the reply, either, "I cannot afford it", or, "It is too risky". It is, of course, known to everyone in this House, but to very few people outside, that even apprenticeship to politics is an expensive business.
  The effort to prepare oneself in economics and politics, and in what might be called the machinery of party warfare, is not an inexpensive business. And the cost of nursing a constituency for two or three years is something known only to those who have been prospective Parliamentary candidates. All this is left entirely out of account when consideration is given to what a man should receive when he becomes a Member of Parliament. But this is a slight handicap compared with what often happens when he becomes the victor at the poll, and then discovers that he has to give up his bread and butter job.
  If the House will forgive a personal note, I won my first election in 1929 and was proud that I was to become a Member of this ancient and historic assembly, but I shall never forget receiving, within a couple of days, a letter from the London School of Economics, of which I was then a secretary, saying that now I had been elected a Member of Parliament of course I was expected to resign and that they would be prepared to accept three months' notice. My total income went down with a bump. That sort of thing happens more often than one likes to think about. A man gets into Parliament and then realises that his outside job has gone and that his Parliamentary salary will allow him no more than the merest fringe on which to live.
  The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) mentioned that his expenses were £1,000 a year. The year before last my expenses—and these figures have been checked by the Inland Revenue—for a
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  marginal and extensive country constituency, were £960. For 1955 they amounted to £1,014. As everyone will know, that excludes expenditure on purely party activities and the expenditure of one's wife, and entertainment. It comes down to this, therefore, that no man can get into Parliament today and survive for more than a few years unless he has some outside business, or has inherited or acquired wealth. It is, I think, true that there are only five occupations consistent with Membership of this House. By occupations I include the occupation of looking after inherited wealth, which is perhaps an occupation just as much as any other. On this side of the House we have our fair share of those hon. Members who are occupied in looking after inherited property of all kinds, and the party opposite is not nearly so lacking in people in that particular occupation today as in the early days of its history.
  Next, we get the trade union and co-operative organisers, or nominees; then we have the lawyers, the literary men, and finally the company directors and partners. Unless a man belongs to one of those very narrow groups, his life in Parliament is short and miserable, and he seeks to end it as quickly as possible and get into wider and more remunerative fields. I should like the profession of politics in this country to be so arranged that every schoolboy could feel that he had the Garter of a Prime Minister in his satchel, but that is not true today.
  I think it true to say that the ambitious, knowledgeable and talented schoolboy will consider any career as being open to him with the exception of politics. That he considers a profession open only to the rich or exceptionally lucky man. Therefore, we find that we not not getting the best of our young people as candidates for Parliament. It is our job to see that we make it possible to recruit the best talent and character into this House.
  However great the financial punishment on the ordinary Member, by an odd quirk it becomes intensified when a man accepts a junior Ministerial position. I do not think there is any other field of activity in which, when a man is promoted, he receives fewer and smaller emoluments than if he had never been promoted at all. But that is the case in this House. In the Army, the Navy, the Air Force or the Church; in business, in

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  the learned professions and so on, when a man goes up a step in rank or grade his income usually rises. But here we have the fierce and vindictive rule that the moment an hon. Member becomes a junior Minister he must sacrifice every other form of outside income, except, of course, inherited wealth.
  That tilts the balance in such a way, such an unjust way, that gravitating automatically to the Front Bench on both sides of the House we have men with inherited wealth who do not necessarily command all the talent, brain, wisdom or character in the country. I think that among the reforms which this House ought to place on the list of those most urgent—top urgent—is that of seeing that junior Ministers get a remuneration which is, at least, adequate for their increased responsibilities.
  I have mentioned the financial punishment. Let me now refer to something which is never referred to by members of the Press when they are discussing this matter, and that is the hazards of political life. Even if Members of Parliament were paid something like American Congressmen, something almost fabulous to our ideas, we must recognise that this is almost danger money; the equivalent of specialist money for a specialist job which at any moment may end with the swing of the pendulum against one.
  I never like quoting my own experience in these matters, but I think my experience can be paralleled by that of many others. In thirty years of political life I have fought nine elections and the record has been: 1924, out; 1929, in; 1931, out; 1934, by-election, out; 1935, in; 1945, out; 1950, out; 1951, in; 1955 in—
  Mr. Charles Royle: 1960, out.
  Sir F. Markham: That is what hon. Members said last time, but I am still here. There is no other profession in which there are such hazards as in political life yet, as we all know, this is the focal centre of the whole British Commonwealth of Nations. We ought to see to it, even if we do nothing to reduce the hazards—and I do not suggest we should do anything to reduce the hazards
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  —that when the ball is running with a man he should be able to score a few goals and not be further penalised on getting into the House or on achieving his first promotion.
  I have survived, bobbing up and down every now and then like a cork, but the periods of deep immersion were most unpleasant and I would not willingly see others go through the same experience as I have gone through. After almost every General Election I have had to make a complete overhaul of my activities and endeavours.
  One thing I cannot help noticing is that during the last thirty years this House has narrowed its membership to four or five professions. The doctors, nonconformist ministers, university professors, and members of many other trades and occupations are disappearing from this House and we are no longer as widely recruited as we were in the years just before the war. That I think is thoroughly bad for the nation. Obviously we must do something to persuade men of character and talent to come into politics and to give the best possible service they can to the country, and we shall no do that until we establish satisfactory scales of salaries and expenses.
  Finally, may I refer to the need for a much better pension scheme than the charity we have at the moment? With the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) I want to see an equitable pension scheme for Members. To my mind that brooks no delay. Whilst some may agree with the Prime Minister that there may be some justification for delaying an overall increase in Members' salaries, there can be no justification for the present scandalous state of affairs of the Pensions Fund. There is no justification for that at all. Whatever the Prime Minister and Members of the Government may feel about this not being an opportune time for a review of salaries, no one can hold with any justification that it is not absolutely urgent and imperative to give hon. Members of this House at least as good a pension scheme, as, shall we say, the teachers enjoy.
  I want to make clear that by every method I shall support to the fullest any proposals for ameliorating the lot of those of our colleagues who, as it were,

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  have had their enthusiasm and idealism replaced by rheumatism, their agility replaced by senility and their position in the front ranks of progress replaced by a place in a bath chair or in a sick bed. I am ashamed to think of some of my late colleagues who have gone down in bitterness, poverty and sorrow after years of splendid service to this country. I pledge myself to do all I can to remedy these grave blots on our political escutcheon. I want to do everything I can to see that we get a decent scheme of emoluments for Members of this House and a good scheme of pensions for those who have left. Unless we do that we shall have our Parliament getting narrower and narrower in scope, less good in talent and ability, and we shall no longer hold our position as the Mother of Parliaments and the leader and pattern of the whole democratic world.
  6.5 p.m.
  Mr. Clement Davies: I find myself almost in complete agreement with the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham), to which I shall be returning in a few moments.
  I want to assert once again that this is of course not a party matter; it is entirely a House of Commons matter. It is not even a Government matter. This House is responsible, through its individual Members, for the character of this House, for its reputation, for its position in the country and for the control it exercises over the Executive. It is therefore responsible for the conditions under which its own Members find themselves from time to time. It is distasteful, as has been said, that we have continually to be raising this matter. It would be very much better if some scheme could be formulated by which it could be decided almost automatically, subject only to the natural, final review of the House.
  I now come to the matter which was mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition, the letters which were sent by him and myself in the correspondence we had with the Prime Minister. I expect some surprise was expressed that we should have been suggesting that this matter should be referred to some outside tribunal. So far as I am concerned, that was for two reasons. One was that a Committee had been appointed by this House, a Committee of Members from
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  both sides of the House. I had the great honour of being chosen by my colleagues to preside over it. That Committee had come to a unanimous conclusion and put the matter before the House. The House accepted the major part of that conclusion by a great majority, but the Government completely ignored it and refused to accept the opinion expressed by a Committee which they had themselves joined in appointing.
  What were we to do when a new Parliament came into existence and again no action had been taken, although the circumstances, instead of improving, were steadily getting worse? It had been suggested that we were judges in our own case, and it occurred to the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) and myself that there was a precedent in Australia and that we should submit the question to an outside tribunal which would judge it without being accused of being a judge in its own case. We both realised, of course, that the final word must be with this House. This House is really in command of this matter. That was how the question was raised in that correspondence.
  I have always taken the view that those of us who have been appointed to a special committee and have joined in framing a report should submit that report to the House and take very little part in the subsequent discussion of the report in the House. We had reported and done our work, and it was for the House to express its views upon it. On the incidents referred to in that Report, I have nothing to say except this: the facts were put before us by the majority of Members of the House, and if it is distasteful for us to discuss here, in public, our own affairs, hon. Members will realise the extraordinary position of the Committee in finding hon. Members putting before us their own financial positions and the crisis with which so many were faced. On the information given to us we had not the slightest doubt in coming to a conclusion as to a finding of facts; and that finding of facts is set out very shortly in paragraph 52, which reads:
  "The evidence leaves Your Committee no option but to report that the expenses necessarily entailed by Membership of Parliament are such that the present payment of £1,000 a year is not sufficient to enable Members to meet these expenses and to keep themselves and their families in reasonable circumstances while attending to their extensive Parliamentary duties."

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  That is a finding of fact based upon the evidence which was put before us—and a unanimous finding of fact.
  What I desire to do at this point is to state the approach which we made to this matter, speaking certainly for myself and, I believe, for most, if not all, of the Members of the Committee. It was an approach very similar to that of the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham.
  Perhaps, if I begin in this way, it may explain to the House what was most prominently in my mind: this institution, the House of Commons, is the most important institution in this country, and it is the most important democratic institution in the world. If anybody had asked any of us fifty years ago what was the tendency of the countries of the world towards the formation of their own forms of Government, we should have had no hesitation at that time in saying that, gradually, all of them would have democratic institutions based upon the pattern set by this House of Commons. Not only is it the Mother of Parliaments, but it is the pattern of Parliaments. Not only do they copy us in our rules and orders, but they follow us almost daily in our procedure; and that is the high regard in which this House is held throughout the democratic world.
  Today, however, democracy is on the defensive—much more on the defensive, I think, than it has ever been. We thought that it was only a question of time when, by evolution, other countries of the world would follow our example, but today the free democracies are suffering in the cause of democracy; there are millions of people over vast areas who, willingly or unwillingly, have to submit to government either of the dictator or of an oligarchy.
  If that is so, it is therefore necessary for us to inquire into our position in this House, for whether democracy succeeds or fails will depend upon the representatives of the people in the institution. If they are worthy, then one can visualise the time when they will win through everywhere, but if they are not, and democracy fails, then that will not only be a tragedy for the country in which it fails, but it will also be a tragedy for democracy the world over. As we know, an institution succeeds or fails on one question—the quality, ability and perfor-
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  mance of its members. That is why we strongly stressed the point in paragraph 54 of our Report, in which we said that the qualities needed in Members of Parliament are qualities of temperament, character, and ability; and, in the course of time, there would be added the quality of experience.
  Secondly, we must be representative of the people. There is no need for me to say "of all the people", because if we are representative of the people, then we are representative of all the people. It is quite wrong to think that we could form a truly democratic, responsible Government if we drew our Members from only certain sections. If the choice is limited, then the House and the Members composing it are not truly representative.
  No one suggests, I suppose, that the membership of the House should be limited to those who can give full attendance here and devote themselves to the duties of this House, knowing from the outset that because of their conditions outside the House and because of their financial position they will not be handicapped in anything they do. That, again, is set out in paragraph 54 of the Report, in which the Members of the Committee said:
  "The House of Commons must also be representative of the people, and should not be drawn from certain sections only the field of choice should be wide. Few would support the idea of a House of Commons composed principally of full-time politicians in the sense of men and women cut off from any practical share in the work of the nation. It would be no less damaging to the country if the House were to become a place where Members could not give of their best because of a dominating need to escape from financial pressure."
  I cannot add to that, and I do not suppose anybody would challenge it. The disappointment is that, while apparently accepting that position—and we know from what the Prime Minister said today that they do accept it—the Government do not proceed to follow with the corollary.
  What is obvious is that because of the tremendous strain put upon hon. Members, the House is deprived of the assistance and guidance of many men and women who ought to be here taking part in our discussions. They are unable to be here because the strain is far too great. Reference has already been made to members of my profession members

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  of the Bar. In the old days, without doubt, a great many members of the Bar could combine their duties in the House with their work, certainly in London. It is becoming more and more difficult for them to do so. Few of them with any substantial practice, and certainly few juniors, can attend the House and still do their work. Certainly if they are on circuit outside London they cannot carry out their professional duties and at the same time attend properly to their duties here.
  I agree with the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) that if we put ourselves forward as candidates before the electors and they choose to send us here to represent them, our primary duty is to them in the House, and anything else must be secondary to that. The hon. Member for Oldham, West referred to his position as a solicitor. Quite rightly, he says that he depends on the good will, the help and the benevolence of his partners, without which he could not possibly do what he is doing in this House. That applies now to the other professions. What doctor can possibly carry on his practice and attend the House? What architect, unless perchance he has his main office somewhere within easy reach of Westminster? This House, therefore, by the mere strain which is imposed, is being deprived of the finest guidance that it ought to be getting on the professional side.
  If one turns to the business side, possibly one can get directorships, but only in London, and even there it certainly does not apply to any active work connected with the larger concerns. If a business is outside London the position is impossible. Of course, as has been pointed out time and time again, no one who is employed in any work can in any circumstances continue in that work and also be present in the House.
  It cannot be right that this condition of things should continue. There are certain hon. Members who are gifted and can add to their income by journalism or by appearing on television or radio, but is it right that a man or a woman elected to this House should then have to seek work outside, but within easy reach of the House, in order to add to his or her income? It is putting Members
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  of this House in an absolutely invidious position.
  It will be noticed that, in the main, I have spoken only about the younger people. Though the Select Committee was deeply concerned about the present condition of many hon. Members, it was much more concerned as to what kind of House we were to have in the future. It wanted to know who would be attracted, when we ought to be attracting the very best that can be attracted from every walk of life. The area should be of the widest and the quality of the highest. Reference has also been made by one hon. Member after another to the impossibility of young men now turning their minds towards service in this House.
  That is my answer to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has quite obviously said, "I realise that this difficult position ought not to exist. It should be put right, and some day or other it will be put right, but at the present moment I do not think it can be put right." Why? I hope that this present financial strain and stress is a temporary and passing one, and according to the speeches by Government spokesmen from that Box conditions are improving. What is much more important is the quality of the membership of the House. More attention should be paid to that. The cost—what does it amount to? At the most it amounts to something between £¼ million and £300,000. More stress is being placed upon that than on this House and its future.
  Young men are today being turned from offering themselves for public service. Public service is the finest service that any young man or woman can undertake. In that respect this country has a wonderful record, and its voluntary service is an example to all the world. Those young people, instead of being encouraged in that public service, are now having their minds turned from it, and I am asking the Government to reconsider the matter.
  They should say to these young people, "We can now assure you that your reasonable expenses will be met. You need not be absolutely frightened. There will be no undue strain upon you. Come and assist in the counsels of the country. It will be the finest thing you can possibly do and the finest way of serving

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  your people." At present, the Government, instead of assisting the House in that way and drawing to it the very best of our people, are pushing them away, and by so doing are doing harm not only to the House and to the country but to democracy as a whole.
  6.25 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: I find the greatest degree of difficulty in making a speech on this matter at all, because it seems to me that the wrong people are present. We have had a succession of speeches from those people who are committed to the proposition that Members of Parliament should be treated decently, but the solid phalanx of hon. Gentlemen opposite who seemed to put pressure on the Cabinet a year or two ago are noticeable by their absence this evening. That is the position with which we are faced. Of course, there is a wide difference between the back benchers on this side of the House and those on the other. We read from time to time how hon. Gentlemen on the other side are rewarded by being made directors of the companies with which the Conservative Party is associated and which are normally the paymasters of that party—which never publishes its balance-sheets in any case.
  Commander Agnew: Has the hon. Member counted how many Socialist directors of companies there are?
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. and gallant Member gives me my point, which is that the Labour Party publishes its balance-sheets but his party does not. In any case, if one analyses the number of directors on the two sides I should say that there is no doubt where the majority lies. As a matter of fact a director on this side—
  Mr. John Mackie rose—
  Mr. Pannell: No, I will not give way. I remember the hon. Member tugging at the coat of the hon. Member for Southgate (Sir B. Baxter) when he was speaking on the Death Penalty (Abolition) Bill, and his bad manners on that occasion stuck in my throat. He was actually hidden from Mr. Speaker on that occasion and could not be called to order, but let him behave himself now.
  Mr. Mackie: It is a point of information—
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. Member could not give me any information.
  As I say, I think that I am speaking to the wrong people. Last week, in the course of the debate on the economic situation, I said that of course we need not be surprised that hon. Members opposite should treat the factory workers in the car industry with a lack of consideration, bearing in mind that that has been their attitude throughout the whole history of this business. I said that they showed their spinelessness by putting up with such things. In so far as I was challenged I was prepared to give chapter and verse for the allegations I then made, and I hope to substantiate them now.
  There is no question about the economics of this present case. On 25th January, 1954, the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
  "… what a Member of Parliament's salary of £400 in 1911, £600 in 1937 and £1,000 in 1946, respectively, would be equivalent to in purchasing power on 1st January, 1954."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th January, 1954; Vol. 522, c. 208.]
  The Answer he received was that the £400 in 1911 was then equal to about £1,470; the £600 in 1937 was the equivalent of about £1,389 and the £1,000 in 1946 was equal to about £1,446. To that, I think, we should have to add another 15 per cent. to 20 per cent. to get the equivalent figure today.
  Those were the conditions in which the House considered this problem at the time, but everyone knows of the conversations that took place, and of the great interest there was in the Lobby on this subject. We all know of the rumour that was rampant at the time—and was never denied—that the Prime Minister of the day, the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), wanted to do justice to the Members. The right hon. Gentleman in many ways cherishes this place and is probably the most remarkable figure we have here. We heard that that decent feeling was not shared by other Members of the Cabinet. We do know that, notoriously at that time, the then right hon. and learned Gentleman who is now the Lord Chancellor took a prominent part in defeating the proposal. He left this House to be Lord Chancellor,

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  and the incumbent who holds that office for a month receives a pension equivalent to half of his salary. I think that in those circumstances there was something odious about the fact that he would not recognise not only the distress that existed but the justice of the case put up at the time.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: That is an entirely suppositious remark. The hon. Gentleman has no evidence whatever that my right hon. and learned Friend left this House for that reason to go to the House of Lords.
  Mr. Pannell: The right hon. and learned Gentleman was a substantial figure in the opposition to an increase, at all events, to put it no higher than that.
  Mr. F. H. Hayman: Can my hon. Friend say what half the pension would be?
  Mr. Pannell: I do not know what the Lord Chancellor gets now, but presumably if he gets £10,000—it may be more—it would be £5,000. That is elementary arithmetic.
  There is no question that the problem did receive a great deal of consideration in the Cabinet at the time. There can be no question that the real opposition came from the rank and file of the Tory Party in the country. The Tory Party was considerably opposed to doing justice by Members of Parliament. In effect the party which is always quoting Burke to the effect that a Member of Parliament should be elected here not only for his ability but for his judgment and should not be driven like some dumb beast into the Lobby, was the party that collapsed first under the impact of its rank and file on a matter of elementary justice.
  It was rather remarkable that in that debate the whole case was given away in similar terms to those which we have heard from the Prime Minister today. I will not quote the Leader of the House too much now, because he is absent. But I remember the colourful phrase which he used about the number of old Members of this House who, after they left the House, having given honourable service had, he said, literally "to be rescued". He deliberately used that phrase.
  We found then that the same sort of howl went up from the Conservative Party that presumably went up on the
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  occasion of the hanging debate recently. There is this difference. I listened to the Lord Chancellor again in the other place a few days ago. He was all in favour of putting murderers to speedy death by the rope. Presumably the Tory Party want to put Members of this House to death by slow starvation. There has been evidence produced on both sides of the House of the genuine poverty of old Members of this House. There is no question about that whatever.
  We then had The Times coming into the picture. The Times always has to be quoted on occasions like this. Today The Times says that the moment is not opportune. When we read a leading article in The Times two years ago, when it was opportune, a completely new set of values emerged. The Times said that there was great public alarm about it, and that the people did not want it. It said that Members of Parliament were overpaid and all that sort of thing. Much lip service has been given here to the desirability that Parliament should be broadly based. We all ought to be able to come into it. The leader writer of The Times does not believe that.
  I remember using a phrase in a letter which I wrote to The Times in which I referred to an ex-engine fitter like myself, and I was surprised at the spate of mail from Conservative old ladies all over the country to the effect, "What the heck is an ex-engine fitter doing in the House? We want educated people". That is really fantastic. What was the truth of the matter?
  I canvassed five Labour Members then representing the City of Leeds. They were my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. Lady who represents Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon), the hon. Member who now represents Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), and Mr. Porter who was then the Member for the now defunct constituency of Leeds, Central. What was their experience? There was one letter from a bookmaker who suggested that we should "not cut ourselves another slice of cake," to use his words. There was another from a grateful constituent of mine who thought that I at least should have the extra money. I think that is a pretty typical cross-section. There was not a great deal of despondency and alarm that between us we in the House should lay on the national Exchequer a

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  sum which was very little in excess of the cost of the alterations which were made to the Royal yacht "Britannia," presumably to please the whims of those people who were to use it.
  How is democracy to be preserved? Democracy is not preserved merely by tons of unctious rectitude such as we have heard today and by strings of clichés about the dignity of Parliament. Democracy is there when we see a man, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West referred to, going down to old age in decency and dignity after a lifetime of service. Democracy is not served when we hear of cases like those of Cecil Poole and Maurice Webb. No one ought to have to bear so much as Maurice Webb did.
  When we hear of these cases we are saddened. But it is by our collective action before that we can protect these people, and not by the sort of things that we say afterwards. If I mention these cases it is only because I have known those concerned intimately. Hon. Members opposite must know of similar cases within their own experience. It is not the things that we do in isolation which really count; it is how we prevent the recurrence of those things. Hon. Gentlemen opposite and the Prime Minister in particular are merely perpetuating this state of affairs today.
  There were conversations, following upon the Select Committee's Report, between my right hon. Friend now the Leader of the Opposition and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer which we on this side thought had gone beyond a matter of principle. It was with shocked and pained surprise that we found that the Government were holding things up on account of the clamour of their people in the country. What did we get from it? We had the contemptible offer of a daily allowance. It would have been far more honest to have given Members £250, £280 or £300 as a straight rise. In spite of all the protests on the other side, it emerged recently that every single Member of this House claimed that allowance except one. We are not even told who that hon. Member is. No one will tell us today. In spite of all the protests from hon Members opposite, when it really came to a question of claiming the money in secrecy, with no one to know, they put
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  out their hands for the money. I think that that is a serious clash between public profession and private performance.
  Mr. Nigel Nicolson: I was one of those to whom the hon. Gentleman refers. I said that I would not draw it during the lifetime of the Parliament which voted it, and I did not draw it. I said at the Election, when I was frequently asked about this, that if I were re-elected I would draw it, and I now do.
  Mr. Pannell: I think that the hon. Gentleman is perfectly honourable in making that statement. I would be interested to know if all his friends could say the same. At all events, the point is a fair one to make, that the people who opposed this allowance now draw it.
  What we are considering at the moment is the perpetuation of a state of poverty and misery, and the plight particularly of the provincial Member of Parliament. Most people have offered a personal alibi in this matter and, in case anybody should think that I am so vehement because I want to state a personal claim, I will say that I am in fact not doing so; I am thinking of other people. Trade unions have been mentioned. I am not a trade union official, but I do get some assistance in that way. There are certain circumstances personal to my case which really do not put me into the hardship class.
  I will say, however, that if I were a shop steward handling a case on the factory floor, I should not prosecute a claim with a better heart than I do here. I do not subscribe to this suggestion that this matter should not be pressed merely because the people concerned are Members of Parliament. The people must know that they must pay for democracy, and that our democracy cannot be run on the cheap.
  We have been considering the plight of the provincial Member of Parliament. Hon. Members opposite must know of these things. We have the case of a man trying to run a home in his constituency, possibly in Scotland, and trying to run a place in London as well. I know of the difficulties, though I have no clash of responsibilities of that sort, despite the fact that I represent a northern constituency. Mention has been made of the

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  hazards of membership, how people lose £100 every time Parliament dissolves. A Member gets no salary for those three weeks. I do not suffer in that way, but I have colleagues who, in effect, lose £100 every time there is an Election.
  I can, I think, with perfect propriety address hon. Members opposite about this matter, because I do enjoy the personal friendship of many of them, after having been in the House for several years. There are many hon. Gentlemen opposite to whom an increase would be very welcome indeed. I have been told—I hope it is true, because it shows good sense—that about 30 per cent. of the Members of the party opposite would be in favour of an increase in allowances or salaries, as the case may be. The fact is that the Government sacrifice their own supporters. They have not even done justice by them.
  There is a duty resting very firmly on the gentlemen of the party opposite. Parliament has voted on this matter, and it is a negation of democracy itself, a free vote having been taken on the assumption that the Government would bow to the freely expressed will of the House, for the Government to betray it.
  Mr. N. Nicolson: Would the hon. Gentleman allow me to intervene again? I entirely agree that there are many of us on this side of the House who could well do with an increase. I could myself. But I think it is right that we should share in the self-sacrifice which we are asking the country as a whole to accept.
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. Gentleman really cannot get away with that. Let me repeat two figures. If £225,000 is spent upon the Royal Yacht "Britannia", nobody suggests that is starting an inflationary spiral. If about £250,000 is spent upon bringing Members up from a state of poverty and giving them a decent sustenance, nobody would suggest that that is going to start an inflationary spiral. We have already lagged behind completely. [Interruption.] As regards the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams), it is far better that the passage of time should give him a thirst and take him away for a drink than that he should keep on interrupting me sotto voce.
  What is fundamentally behind the attitude of the party opposite? I am not
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  speaking of the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East and Christchurch (Mr. N. Nicolson) now; I am looking towards him, but I am not quarrelling so much with him again. I am speaking to the solid core of the Conservative Party and those in control of the party which is responsible for this situation. There must be something in their philosophy which has made them take this line.
  What is behind all this procrastination, this evasion, this double-crossing, double-dealing and sheer skulduggery we have had to put up this? I think it was very well said by John Stuart Mill some eighty or hundred years ago. He said:
  "An unpaid legislature and an unpaid magistracy are terms essentially aristocratic—contrivances for keeping legislature and judicature exclusively in the hands of those who can serve without pay."
  He went on to say—and it is more true today than then—
  "Of the able men the country produces, nine-tenths at least are of the class who cannot serve without pay."
  It seems to me that it is the aristocratic concept which lies at the heart of all this problem. The party of hon. Gentlemen opposite is still living in the past, still fundamentally believing that we can run a country on the old ways of privilege and patronage. I do not think the Judicature can grumble very much; they are doing very well, except, of course, the lay magistrates, who do not even get the 30s. a day which local councillors are allowed for lost time and expenses. Those at the top seem to have been pretty well looked after.
  In face of all these facts, I find the Prime Minister's statement—which I took down—that we must not take any action which starts an inflationary spiral—to be, quite frankly, ridiculous. He said they had very little choice in the matter. What he ought to have said was that they had not got the guts.
  Let us come down to cases. We have the ridiculous situation now in the Civil Service where, as a result of the recommendation of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service, a Minister is receiving about £1,000 less than his permanent officials. Surely, that is a cockeyed sense of values. I should have thought it was worth while to see that the principle of the supremacy of Ministers should be maintained

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  I am one of those who tend to think that the civil servants and managers generally have too much to say, and I am all in favour of asserting the claims of the elected element everywhere. Generally speaking, we have all the hazards of the election and all that sort of thing, and those who take Ministerial office know that they are only the tenants of today, who will be the evicted of tomorrow. I should have thought there was some point in keeping Ministerial salaries well above those of the permanent officials, if only to stop the permanent officials getting above themselves.
  What do we find in the middle ranges of the Civil Service? I should like to quote some figures of salary at round about our level, speaking now of about £1,000. I say at once, before using any figures at all, that I am not suggesting they are excessive; the Royal Commission conceded these increases on the principle of a fair comparison with the current rate for outside employment. That was the basis on which they were given. A chief executive officer, whose minimum in 1946 was £1,055, now receives £1,635; he has gone up £580. There is a whole list which I have here showing the figures for an administrative principal, a works group officer (senior grade), a chief accountant, etc., the figures for whom are of the range with which we are concerned this afternoon. Their salaries have increased by £580, by £688, £583, £730, £635 and £680. The increases bring the level of salary to as high as 65 per cent. above the 1946 level.
  I notice that somebody is pointing to the clock. The hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) is, I think, in a hurry to be called, but as there has been so much agreement today and as mine is the first controversial speech to be made so far, I do not think it unreasonable that I should address the House. I have not troubled it for a long time. The judges, the governors, the Civil Service, the town clerks and the police have all been dealt with. If one considers comparative values, it seems to me that only lavatory attendants are below us today.
  I want to say this, and I hope I get some agreement with my closing remarks at least. It is a sense of vocation that brings most Members into the House. There are very few introverts in the
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  House; most of us are extroverts. We tend to come here because we think that we do things rather better than other people can do them for us. Most of us who are sent here have a sense of vocation, in the same way as the teachers have a sense of vocation, in the same way that people enter the Church. There is no doubt that hon. Gentlemen and Ladies, on all sides of the House, are prepared to sacrifice pensions, security and jobs to come here to do a job in which they consider that they are doing a public service and serving their fellows.
  The only thing about which I feel deep disagreement in the rather melancholy remarks by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), who leads the Liberal Party, is the kind of idea that after he came into the House the mould was broken and nobody quite as good has been made since. I do not believe that to be true.
  I still have the same sense of pleased surprise that I get from time to time in talking with hon. Members in the Lobbies to know the kind of sense of service that brings many people into this House. I recall that in 1950 I found somebody who sacrificed thirty-six years of super annuated service under a public authority to come into this House because he knew that he would probably be the only person to win the constituency for our party. It may be said that that is quixotic, but I state it to the House as an indication that that spirit of service still lives amongst us.
  I still know people who are prepared to give up trade union jobs because they feel a sense of vocation and probably because it is the thing they have always wanted to do. The right hon. and learned Gentleman who leads the Liberal Party need not be so melancholy about it. He may mourn the death of the Liberal Party but he need not mourn the death of public service. It is still very much alive.
  Do we really say that only those who can afford to come into the House of Commons should come into it? That is what the question really amounts to. What of the other services that Members give, the kind of things that people do not realise? People in the public galleries who look down upon us and sometimes see a sparse attendance think that there

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  are very few people attending to business. But we know, for instance, of all those Members who give their time, day in and day out for many days, considering Private Bills, when three or four Members listen to the evidence of great corporations, have before them lawyers with their briefs, marked probably 50 or 80 guineas a day, and use their judgment in matters of that kind, deciding, for instance, great questions of city boundary extensions. These are the jobs that are done by hon. Members away from the limelight.
  It is not always the most vocal Members who are the most useful ones. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear hear."] My case for making a speech at all is that this is only the second speech I have made in the House since December, so the joke is not on me.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: That is because the hon. Member has been to America since then.
  Mr. Pannell: I do not think I need answer the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne). He intervenes in the debates from time to time, and we listen to him always with interest and sympathy.
  Not another country in the world treats its representatives as badly as we do. The hon. Member for Louth speaks about America. A senator in the United States is safe and secure after two terms of office—there is no question of that—on a salary that we would consider completely extravagant; but I still think that it is far more dignified of America to do that sort of thing than it is for us to do the kind of thing we do here. In this House, we tend to treat ourselves, not as the representative assembly of the country, but as something less.
  In the set-up of this House—this is something else in which I share the views of my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Baines)—we are not complete masters in our house in the regulation of this place, running it with a house committee and Commissioners of the House, as a Select Committee proposed. Even when the House took a decision, after due consideration, that our salaries should be increased, the Government of the day decided to double-cross us. That is what we are protesting about today, and I cannot really see much hope for us from hon. Members opposite.
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  In spite of what the Prime Minister has said this afternoon, my hon. Friend, who is a great historical researcher, recognised it as the kind of speech that was made in 1909. It is the same sort of speech that the Conservative Party will continue to put forward on these occasions. I believe that it will have to be left to a Labour Government, which has a fundamental belief in democracy, to bring back a sense of justice in this House. When that day comes, hon. Members opposite will damn the increase before they get it, they will accept it when it comes, and at the election that follows they will blame us for giving it to ourselves.
  6.57 p.m.
  Mr. William Shepherd: In eleven years in the House I have listened to a large number of speeches on the subject of Members' remuneration, but I have never listened to one as bad as the speech we have just heard from the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell)—
  Mr. C. Pannell: The hon. Member is not the judge of that.
  Mr. Shepherd: —or one which has done less service to the cause that I and many of my hon. Friends have tried to further during these years.
  I do not want to waste time in dealing in any detail with what the hon. Member said, but before I say why I cannot support the immediate raising of salaries, I want to turn to the very important issue of pensions. There is no doubt whatever that there are hon. Gentlemen in this House today who are carrying on under the most severe physical disabilities—
  Mr. Pannell: The hon. Member does nothing about it.
  Mr. Shepherd: —and who ought not to be here. I know hon. Members, on the other side and on this side of the House too, who, if they were to have any reasonable treatment at all by this House, would and should retire because they are in no physical condition to carry on these duties.
  Whatever arguments may be adduced—and I think they can be—for not dealing with an immediate increase in Members' salaries, these arguments cannot apply to pensions. The Government say that we must set an example, and I

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  agree, but it is a good example for employers to pension their employees. We are trying to get firms all over the country to provide for the retirement of their workers. We should not really be going contrary to the concept of Governmental policy in instituting some form of pension for hon. Members of this House. It would, indeed, be in accord with the climate of economic opinion.
  I cannot support the increase in Members' salaries at the present time, but I would not go as far as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in the reason for it. I do not really believe that if we increased our own salaries it would necessarily result in an increase in wage demands by workers in industry. I do not think it would, because what trade union leaders and others look at are not the salaries of Members of Parliament, judges or town clerks, but the profits of industry. Therefore, I do not think it would necessarily lead to increased wage demands.
  What I do believe is that we have at the moment a very crucial battle to fight against the wages-prices spiral, and that it is fitting that we should ask ourselves to make some sort of contribution towards the winning of that battle. Much as I recognise the undoubted justice of this case, I feel that the Government are entitled, and indeed it is an obligation upon them, to ask us to withhold this demand until we can see some evidence of winning this battle against rising prices.
  I want to say a few words about what happened in 1954, and it is very difficult for me to say them after the kind of speech to which we have just listened, but I say them despite the discouragement which that speech gives me. I took some little part in trying to get some sort of arrangement in 1954, and I and my hon. Friends who voted for an increase then were pilloried in the yellow Press, particularly the Daily Express and its associated newspapers. We endured a good deal of abuse from some members of our own party, and we endured even more abuse from some of our less intelligent supporters in the country. I said at the time I did this that I did not regret it, and nothing has subsequently caused me to alter my belief.
  In 1954, this change could have been accomplished without any real difficulty
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  at all. I say with regret that our Government succumbed to the less worthy elements of our party. I looked with extreme distaste on the sight of some of my hon. Friends with immense incomes which they had not earned taking the view that some hon. Gentlemen in this House who were in a much inferior position should not get a rise in their remuneration. I go as far as to say that no man who is not dependent upon his Parliamentary salary ought to turn round and say that other hon. Gentlemen should not get an increase in their pay.
  I must confess that I am not dependent upon a Parliamentary salary, but I would not for one moment, if I held contrary views to those which I have, deem that I ought not to express them. This issue in 1954 never had a fair chance. We had the yellow Press, and we also had that extraordinary attempt by the Daily Telegraph to beat up irresponsible opinion among middle-class supporters of the Conservative Party. It was a disreputable act for what is a reputable newspaper, and the issue never really had a chance of being considered in its true perspective.
  Let me now turn for a moment to the question of what we are going to do about Members of Parliament and their salaries, because this is really quite a fundamental problem to our democracy. I do not pretend that I really know the answer. I had hoped a few years ago that we might see a lessening in Parliamentary business as a result of freeing the economy and other devices, which would cause Members of Parliament to bear less of a burden than had been the case, in my experience at any rate, in the years since the war. The real fact is that, having freed the economy as far as is possible—and perhaps even further than is possible—we are still left in the position that this House is not capable of dealing with all the business with which it is required to deal, and the pressure upon Parliamentary time and upon Members of Parliament remains as great as it was in the days when hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite were trying to bring about the social revolution.
  We really do know now that we cannot conceive a state of affairs in the immediate or even distant future when the leisurely pace of Parliament will be able to be resumed, and we can only look forward to the fact that, for good or evil,

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  Members elected to this House will have to spend much more of their time doing their job than was the case with their predecessors twenty or thirty years ago.
  That means that we have to consider seriously and in true perspective what sort of remuneration we are going to give for that job. I agree with everybody who has said that a sense of vocation must exceed the attraction of the reward in this job. I would not like to see a House of Commons in which the attraction of the reward exceeded the sense of vocation, and, whatever we do, we must not do anything that will cause us to create a state of affairs in which men come here not because they believe in public service, but because they believe that this is a well-paid and comfortable job.
  At the moment, the United Kingdom Parliament is the hardest worked and the worst paid of all the Parliaments in the world, and that is having very evil effects. I think that some of the pictures which have been drawn of the evils have been slightly overdrawn today, because this is a vital assembly which will survive even such speeches as that just made by the hon. Member for Leeds, West. In these circumstances, this is having a very bad effect upon the House, and, as the hon. Gentleman said, only a rich man, a kept man, a journalist or perhaps a lawyer, and even bachelors, will in future be able to take their places if we continue the present salary scales. There is no reason for believing that Members of this House, like artists, do their best when starving in garrets; they do not. There is no ground for the belief that poverty is a good forcing ground for statesmanship. What strikes me as being the biggest evil is that the present remuneration of Members prevents the dignified discharge of a Member's duties.
  A short time ago one of my colleagues here told me that he could not afford to go into his Conservative club in his constituency because he might be treated and he could not afford to treat anybody in return. That is a very serious state of affairs for any Member of Parliament, Conservative or Labour. He could not mix with his own supporters and constituents because he was afraid of incurring the obligation to return hospitality which his circumstances would not allow him to do. There are more serious consequences of this state of affairs than that.
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  I refer to the division of this House between the Dining Room and the Tea Room, which is not a good thing. I do not say that this goes on to a disastrous extent, because there is a sense of unity in this place which is one of the most uplifting experiences that any man can have. We know that behind the necessary area of dispute there is a sense of unity here which is a great safeguard for the whole democratic concept, but this difference between those who can afford a decent meal and those who can have only a scratch one is not calculated to improve conditions in this place.
  The second and even more important objection to this state of affairs is that it renders Members susceptible to pressure from outside. This is quite the most important of all the objections to the existing state of affairs. I suppose there are few Members who have been in this House even so long or so short a time as I have, according to the way one looks at it, who have not been approached at some time or another by some organisation suggesting that if they would do so-and-so the organisation would do this, that or the other. Because I work I have been in the fortunate position that I am able to tell them exactly where they are to go, but to hon. Members who had no other source of income that would present an immense temptation. I say to those unsympathetic people outside in certain places that to safeguard Members of the House of Commons against temptation is a very important factor in our public life.
  The third reason why I do not support the existing salary set-up is that it tends to make Members less independently-minded. It may appear odd to the public that Members want to be independently-minded, but for the healthy functioning of the party system that is essential. The independently-minded Member is much the more valuable Member of this House than the purely passive one who goes with the stream. The man who is beholden to his constituency or to his association or to some trade body or trade union outside is not the best man to represent the people of this country in the House of Commons.
  Hon. Members have said that there is no objection amongst the members of the public to raising the salaries of Members of this House and that, on the whole, the

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  public would welcome it. I am not so sure that this is the right view. I believe that there is a substantial section of the public filled with a great deal of envy and resentment against Members of Parliament. One cannot go into any pub without meeting one man who could run the affairs of the country much better than any Member of Parliament—[An HON. MEMBER: "He is probably right."]—and if one goes into a cocktail bar, they can all do it.
  This is a factor which we ought to recognise, because it is important to our relations with the public. I had the first experience of this attitude when, in 1948, I wrote an article in the Daily Mail to the effect that the salaries of junior Ministers were hopelessly inadequate and ought to be increased. I should have thought that any responsible person reading that article which, although it may not have been well written, put the facts before the public, would have seen the good sense of it, at any rate to some extent. I was astounded at the spate of abuse I received, including two letters from my constituents stating that I was not fit to be a Member of Parliament. It is true that hon. Gentlemen opposite were the junior Ministers on that occasion, and that lessens the value of my case to some extent, but it by no means justified what happened.
  Mr. Pannell: And also the readers of the article were the readers of the Daily Mail—do not forget that.
  Mr. Shepherd: That may be so, but we must recognise that there is a good deal of envy amongst certain sections of the public of Members of Parliament, and we have to try to take those people with us.
  I believe that during the next six months or so we must get down seriously to judging the future pattern of Members' remuneration. We have now seen that there is no question of reducing materially the business of this House. If anything, if we are to do our job properly, we shall have to do more. There are the nationalised industries, for example, which go on without any let or hindrance, and they will have to be dealt with in some way or other. Therefore, we must try in the next few months
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  to work out a pattern of Members' remuneration. We must make our case to the public. We must deal with those people who are unreasonable in their attitude towards us, and we must try to explain matters to them. At the same time we must try to get a pattern which will make a life in this House tolerable to the man who has no other income.
  It must be remembered that only because there are people who come here and do full-time work can others exist who do part-time work, and we ought not to have a state of affairs in which the man who has no other income cannot share in the full-time work of this House. There ought to be no such exclusion in terms of income.
  Therefore, whilst I support the Government in their present view that we must lead and set an example to the people of this country, for the next month or so at any rate, we must make the country generally realise that to continue this state of affairs in the House of Commons is damaging to the democratic concept. I agree that not everyone wants the democratic concept, but if the majority of people in this nation want a democracy of the kind we have, they must look upon their servants in this House with a little more understanding and must appreciate that to continue the existing state of affairs will be a bad thing for democracy.
  7.16 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Royle: I hope I shall not embarrass the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) if I say to him that all of us on this side of the House express our appreciation of the speech he has made. It is infinitely more valuable coming from that side of the House than from this side, and we appreciate very much what the hon. Gentleman has said. I go further and express the hope that not only what the hon. Gentleman calls "the yellow Press" but The Times, following its leading article this morning, will publish at length the speech he has made in this House this evening. I thank him personally for what he has said.
  It is significant that every speech made here today has been on exactly the same lines. Not one made since the commencement of this debate has opposed the suggestion put before the House in the Motion before us. The only cold water

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  thrown on it was poured by the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister himself, and that was referred to by the hon. Member for Cheadle in his reference to postponement because of our economic circumstances.
  I want to devote my speech to the question of pensions, and so all I want to say about salaries is that it is not we who should be setting the example. The example of rising wages and rising salaries have already been set. It has been set by other people whose salaries have been increased. In every sphere of our national activity people have been receiving increases except Members of Parliament, who find themselves tagging along behind what is happening throughout the country.
  Therefore, it is due to us that real consideration should be given to the question of Members' salaries, not at some later date when the Government have decided that it is the right moment because the economic circumstances may be better, but now. It has been proved in every speech today that this is an urgent matter, and there is no doubt about the evidence. To put it another way, we owe it to our families that their sacrifices to our public service should not be exploited.
  As I have said, the main point I want to raise is the question of pensions. However serious the salary question may be, and it is serious, the pensions situation is considerably worse. Take a Member who has been here for at least ten years. He may be over sixty. Because of his membership, he has had to sever all association with industry. He might lose his seat and cease to render service to the House. In almost no circumstances is anyone prepared to give him a situation in keeping with his dignity as an ex-Member or suitable to his physical ability. If he has been living solely on his Parliamentary salary during his ten years of service to the House, he will not have been able to save out of it.
  What happens? After rendering that service to the country, he has to approach a committee, composed of persons who were his colleagues in the House, and say, "Look, I am in a mess. My commitments are greater because of the time I spent in the House. Can you help me?" What a position for a man of public service to be in. What is the Committee's reply?
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  My hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) has given some indication of it. The Committee will say, "Ten years' service, and you have finished with the House? All right. Whatever income you may have now we will make up to the fabulous sum of £6 a week." This concerns not only hon. Members who have left the House. There must be very many hon. Members here now who are facing that prospect.
  I want to make what I feel is a very reasonable and practical suggestion to the Government. I do not want them to think for a moment that I regard the other matter as unimportant or not urgent. It is very urgent. If there is anything at all in the argument that the economic situation will not allow an increase in salaries and that there will have to be postponement, will the Government do what I am about to suggest, and do it now, in order to relieve the burden upon the shoulders of those who have left us and the threat to those who are still with us?
  We have been told that the Members' Fund stands at about £80,000, which has all arisen from our modest contributions month by month. I suggest that the Chancellor should say now that he will underwrite the fund to the tune of, say, £70,000 or thereabouts. In other words, should the fund fall below about £70,000, the Chancellor would make it up from Treasury funds. The cost to him would be very small indeed in terms of money these days. I suggest that from that fund he should pay half the Parliamentary salary, whatever it might be at a given time—I stress this—without any question to any applicant who has served more than ten years, is no longer in Parliament and has reached the age of sixty or sixty-five. The exact age is arguable; these would be men who were, in effect, beyond absorption in industry.
  I have not done a great deal of research into the cases of individuals in previous Parliaments, but I am sure that the number who would be considered in this respect would be very small. Suppose it amounted to about 100. The commitment would be only £50,000 a year. My hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton has told us in no uncertain terms in his excellent speech what the Government have had out of Members of Parliament. If we think in terms of a maximum of

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  even £50,000 a year from Treasury funds, it is a flea-bite compared with other sums that we discuss, and it is not much in comparison with the figures referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton. Much of it would come from better-off ex-Members in Income Tax, even if they applied for the pension, but I should certainly take the view that people who would have to pay back a great deal of it in Income Tax would not trouble to apply for it, and, therefore, the sum would be nothing like the £50,000 which I have suggested.
  I suggest that there could be no earthly objection to such a course from any source that we could imagine. I am sure that we should have not the slightest criticism from any member of the public. However, I am confident that, by doing this, we should take away the worry and uncertainty in the minds of hon. Members who are getting a little older.
  Perhaps it is a sign of my advancing years that I should talk like this, but I assure the House that I am not speaking in a personal sense at all. This is a very serious matter indeed. I am perfectly sure that dignity could be upheld and fairness would be done to all Members and ex-Members of Parliament. I do not make my suggestion as a cure for the whole problem. I do not accept the Government's statement that they cannot do it now because of the economic circumstances. What I do say, however, is that, if they are going to stick to that point of view, this is something of an interim character which they can do, and by doing it they can relieve the anxieties of those who have already left the House and contribute a great deal towards a feeling of security on the part of many present Members. That is the aspect that I want to stress, although the other is also important.
  7.29 p.m.
  Mr. C. E. Mott-Radclyffe: The tone of the speech of the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Royle), like that of the Leader of the Opposition, was in very marked contrast to the speech of the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell). The allegations which the hon. Member made against the present Lord Chancellor can be treated with the contempt that they deserve.
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  That speech aside, I should say that, whatever differences there might be in our discussions between one side of the House and the other in the somewhat delicate matter of our remuneration, they are differences not on the merits or the facts of the case, which are well known, but broadly speaking on the timing. We speak only for ourselves, of course. For my part—I do not think that very many hon. Members would disagree with me—I feel it to be wholly wrong that anybody should be debarred from Membership of the House owing to lack of financial means.
  Equally, at the other end of the scale—and here again there will be general agreement—it would be wrong if Membership conferred upon the individual Member a standard of living higher than he would enjoy if he were not a Member. Again, we all agree that it is undesirable, for a number of obvious reasons, that hon. Members should be looking over their shoulders every weekend, wondering how on earth they can keep themselves in London in the middle of the week, and a wife and family several hundreds of miles away.
  As has been pointed out by several hon. Members, the whole position and tempo of Parliament is now quite different from what it used to be. Since the war, the pressure of legislation has become much heavier. I sometimes think that the legislative meal which we are asked to eat is so heavy as to be indigestible. Moreover, in the last six years, the parties have been very evenly balanced, so that it is much more difficult for that reason, apart from other reasons, to get away.
  Mr. Percy Shurmer: It has changed from an exclusive club to a workshop.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: The hon. Member can describe it as he likes. I would not know whether a workshop is more exclusive than membership of this House.
  To a greater extent, membership of House is becoming a whole-time occupation. As the Leader of the Opposition said, if there were not a large number of Members prepared to devote almost all their time to the House, the House could not function, because we could not man the Committees, apart from anything else, although we all agree that we would not like to see 625 full-time Members,

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  none of them having a stake or interest outside and therefore none of them feeling in their own affairs the effects of the legislation which goes through the House. That would be very undesirable.
  Where there is a disagreement it is not on the merits, but on the timing. It is very important that we should not overstate the case for an increase in our remuneration. A credit squeeze is in operation at the moment to try to cure inflation. In my view that is quite right, although hon. Members opposite may take a different view. The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) told us that he knew several hon. Members in difficulties who had had to mortgage their houses and surrender life insurance policies in order to keep going. That is deplorable, but I must point out that those circumstances, deplorable though they are, are not difficulties peculiar to Members of Parliament. A number of other people, including those living on fixed incomes and pensions, many of whom have rendered very distinguished service to the State, services much more distinguished than many of us will ever render, have had to mortgage houses and properties and surrender life insurance policies.
  Mr. Shepherd: That is true, but an Army colonel today, after 24 years' service, gets a gratuity of £3,000 and a pension of £1,000 a year, perhaps for the next thirty years.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: The point I was making was that we should not overstate our case as though we were the only section of the community in financial difficulties.
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: The hon. Member is doing great harm to the general case by confusing payment for services rendered and expenses as we have here, and pensions. There are no pensions for Members of Parliament. The kind of case he is making, no doubt very sincerely, is part of the misrepresentation which confuses the issue in the country.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: All I am saying is that it is not right and does the reputation of Parliament no good to overstate the case of the financial difficulties which both sides of the House suffer.
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  The Chancellor is quite rightly imposing a credit squeeze, and he is asking all sections of the community to exercise restraint. He is asking the trade unions to exercise restraint in respect of wages; he is asking companies to exercise restraint in respect of dividends; he is asking individuals and local authorities to exercise restraint in respect of expenditure. Of course, it is a very popular and easy line to take to say, "Hooray for the credit squeeze. Let us have economies to get the finances of the country right—so long as the cuts apply to you and not to me."
  I do not think that as Members of Parliament, collectively or individually, we could argue like that. I very strongly hold the view that Parliament must itself practice what it preaches to others. We cannot say to our constituents, "Many of the things you want to do now have to be postponed until tomorrow, but count us out; we Members of Parliament are beings apart; we are outside all this."
  Mr. Shurmer rose—
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: No, I shall not give way.
  That is where I differ with hon. Members opposite.
  Mr. Shurmer: The hon. Member is confusing the issue.
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: I am not confusing the issue at all. If the hon. Member would do me the credit of listening for a second, I will say why. The Chancellor is imposing cuts in expenditure over a wide section of the community. He is asking hon. Members on this side of the House to help him in that respect. He is asking hon. Members opposite to help him, but whether they do so or not is up to them. For my part, I could not say to my constituents, "Cuts for you. All sorts of things you want, both collectively and individually, you cannot have now, they must be postponed because of the economic condition of the country, but that does not apply to me, I am a being apart, I am a Member of Parliament, I want a higher salary."
  Where I differ with hon. Members opposite is that I believe that if we were to say that now, we should not only drag Parliament into disrepute, but do something else.
  Mr. Shurmer: The hon. Member is now arguing the excuse of the credit squeeze and the request to workers to restrain their wage demands. Will he say why the Government did not concede this increase in salaries when the House voted for it when there was no credit squeeze?
  Mr. Mott-Radclyffe: If I were an hon. Member opposite, I should not make too much criticism of Chancellors of the Exchequer who impose credit squeezes, because successive Chancellors of the Exchequer of the party opposite tried to impose credit squeezes. They did a lot of talking, but very little else.
  Where I differ from hon. Members opposite is that I believe that if I am to ask my constituents to exercise restraint, then there is a double obligation on me to exercise that restraint and more in respect of my remuneration.
  7.40 p.m.
  Mr. F. Blackburn: I do not think we can take seriously the argument that this is the wrong time to increase Members' salaries. It always is the wrong time. Soon after I came into the House I was asked to make a contribution towards a collection being made for a former Member who was in dire distress. The position of Members was known then. It has always been known. It was known in 1954, but the Government of the day would not take the necessary action. The burden of the Prime Minister's speech was that this is not the right time. I do not suppose that at any time in the history of Parliament a weaker speech has been made by a Prime Minister—but I shall not go into that in detail.
  Last night, the last Bill which we discussed was the Governors' Pensions Bill, which increased the pensions of colonial Governors to £3,000. I do not know whether it was bad planning, or intentional, that these two matters should come so close together. I am not objecting to the fact that colonial Governors are going to receive pensions of £3,000 a year, but it seems rather strange that the Government were asking the House to raise their pensions to £3,000 a year last night but will not contribute one penny towards a pension scheme for Members of this House today.
  Perhaps I should explain my position in relation to the debate. I have no other
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  job, nor have I a subvention from any trade union. But my position is not quite as bad as that of many of my colleagues, especially those with young children. Further, when I was elected I took the view that my constituents elected me to come here, and that this was where they expected me to spend most of my time. Consequently, I suppose that I am what one might call a professional politician.
  It is very difficult and embarrassing periodically to have to discuss our own salaries in this way. That is why I regret that the Prime Minister did not accede to the suggestion that an independent inquiry should be set up. I never really imagined for one moment that he would agree to such a proposal. It is quite definite that if such a committee had been set up its recommendations would have been very different from those put forward by a Select Committee of this House, and they would have blown sky high the myth that this is a part-time job.
  Some sections of the Press have not been very helpful to us. I have often wondered whether it is presumption on our part to consider that we are worth more than one-tenth the value of the editor of the Sunday Express, or presumption on his part that we are not. I have also read in the Press references to the huge salaries paid to Members of Parliament, and to the fact that they receive free travel, free stationery and other emoluments. When I read about these other emoluments, I wondered whether I was missing something, or whether I had not been a Member sufficiently long to find out what these other emoluments are.
  Mr. Shurmer: Hard work.
  Mr. Blackburn: Anyway, I certainly have not discovered them.
  The payment of Members of Parliament is not something which has suddenly cropped up in the twentieth century. I believe that the first time they were paid was in 1232. As my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) pointed out earlier, it is significant that Members were not paid during the period of greatest political corruption in this country. In 1232, by an Act which I do not think has ever been repealed, constituents had to pay their Members 4s. a day if they were

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  knights and 2s. a day if they were burgesses. Some people may think that people had a strange sense of values in those days. We do not operate that system today. We do not decide that knights necessarily should have more than ordinary commoners. We have a different arrangement, whereby we make quite certain that the wealthiest Members receive the biggest Parliamentary salaries—because they are able to claim the largest expenses.
  Surely that is an intolerable position. Surely it should be taken for granted that, at least during the time when we are doing the same job, we should have the same standard of living. I hope that the Financial Secretary will consider this question very seriously. We should not have to go through this degrading experience of having to add up how many pennies we have spent during the year before we make out our expenses. It is known throughout the House what the expenses of Members of Parliament are generally. I can see no reason why a sum should not be fixed which Members should be allowed to charge as expenses so that we should all be paid the same amount, at any rate whilst we are doing the job of Member of Parliament.
  I want to make one other suggestion to the Government about the payment of Ministers. I have never been able to understand why a Minister—either of junior or Cabinet rank—should not be able to claim the same expenses as an ordinary Member of Parliament. When any changes are made they should be made upon the basis that a Minister should receive, first, his salary as a Member of Parliament; secondly, the same expenses as ordinary Members of Parliament and, on top of that, a further amount in respect of the important work which he undertakes. I suppose that the present situation dates back to the time when Ministers had to resign their seats if they were appointed and fight again. That is not the case today, and a Minister should now receive his Parliamentary salary first of all.
  The Prime Minister's speech indicated that he has no knowledge whatever of what it means to a Member of Parliament to have to live on his Parliamentary salary. When he left office in 1945 he did not try the experience of living upon a Parliamentary salary; he became the director of a bank. Of course, his experi-
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  ence of foreign affairs qualified him very well for such a position. Furthermore, he does not seem to realise how exacting the day-to-day business of Parliament is at present. I should think that it is a very long time since the Prime Minister was a member of a Standing Committee—if he ever did undertake such work. I wonder if he knows that in the present Session 26 Bills have been sent to Standing Committees, in addition to those sent to the Scottish Standing Committee which, to me, seems to have been sitting in almost permanent session.
  In addition to the Standing Committees considering Bills, there are 17 Select Committees, one of which has five sub-committees and another four. All these have to be manned by Members, and, as has been said by one hon. Member opposite, it is only because some Members are full-time Members that it is possible for others to be part-time Members. It is true that not a single occupant of the Front Bench has ever had the experience of having to live on the salary of a Member of Parliament.
  I think it true to say that at the present time there is not a single hon. Member on the benches opposite who has not a private income, or a pension, or a job, or a directorship, or a union contribution, or a job at the Conservative Central Office. Yet I understand that quite a number of hon. Members opposite are finding present conditions very difficult. If that be true of them, how much more true must it be of those Members of Parliament who have to rely entirely on their Parliamentary salaries?
  I wish to come back to 1954 and to the dictatorship mentality of the Conservative Government. We talk about democracy and about Parliament being supreme—that the will of Parliament must prevail. But that is just nonsense. It was not the will of Parliament which prevailed then, it was the will of the Cabinet. We are not living under a Parliamentary democracy, where the will of Parliament prevails, but under a Cabinet dictatorship. To me, that seems to present a constitutional issue which has been passed over very lightly.
  In connection with another matter, the News Chronicle either this morning or yesterday, said this:
  "The Government is not bound to support the Bill"—

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  that is the Bill which has just been defeated in another place—
  "but must permit the elected Members of Parliament to have the last word."
  I admit that that was dealing with an entirely different problem, but the principle is the same. The elected Members of Parliament should have had the last word in this matter when a free vote of the House was granted.
  It is just nonsense to say that, in order to do their job efficiently as Members of Parliament, hon. Members of this House must hold some outside engagement and keep in touch with industry. If any hon. Member is not keeping in touch with the problems of the industries in his constituency, is not keeping in touch with all the different facets of life, he is not doing his job properly. Therefore, it is nonsense to say that he must do an outside job. Of course, as has been said, this can be only a part-time job for some, because it is a full-time job for others. I wonder how many hon. Members go to their constituents at Election time and say, "I hope that you will elect me, but, of course, I do not intend to make this a full-time job"? If the electorate were offered the choice between a Member of Parliament who was to be full-time and one who was to be a part-time Member, I know which one they would elect.
  I warn the Government that it is the view of some hon. Members on this side of the House that the same rules as are at present applied to Ministers should be applied to back benchers. I am not arguing one way or the other whether that is right. I am just telling the Government Front Bench that the view is held by a good many hon. Members on this side of the House. The number is likely to increase, and the treatment which the Government is giving the House is just the very treatment which will increase that number. So perhaps the Government should not be surprised if, at some future time, a Labour Government says that they propose to pass legislation to carry that into effect. I know then from where the strongest demand for adequate salaries would come.
  What sort of House of Commons do we want? Everyone is agreed that we want a House of Commons which is representative of every section of the community; of the employers and
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  employees; of the professions, of those who secured their education at universities and those who were educated mainly in the workshop and the mine and are able to bring to the deliberations of this House the commonsense approach of the workshop and the mine. We should see to it that we have a House composed in that way of the best men and brains by ensuring that, during the time hon. Members are here, they are not perpetually suffering from financial worries—and, of course, the chief worry is not regarding the man himself but his wife and family.
  I am sure that even the Government must at times have made the comparison between our remuneration and that paid to Members of Parliaments abroad. If one goes to an international conference, it is very noticeable that, while the British representatives are very popular, they are regarded as the poor relations of the family. I do not think that does any good to British prestige. From the fact that we are known to be paid so much less, I think there arises a danger that some people abroad may believe that we are "making something on the side"—I think that is the phrase which is used. I am happy to say that I think there is not another Parliament in the world so free from corruption as the British Parliament.
  I should like to mention an experience I had while on a train journey a year or two ago. There was an American in the same compartment, and with the persistent questioning in which some Americans indulge, he eventually discovered that I was a Member of Parliament. He said, "How much do they pay you?" I said, "A thousand a year". I did not go into details and tell him that it was £1,000 less expenses. He said, "But you cannot possibly live on that." I said, "I am afraid that we have to." He said, "What jobs have you got in your gift?" I said, "None." He then asked me, "What jobs has your party got in its gift?" I said, "None." He thought that over for a moment and then he looked at me and said, "Do you mean to tell me that you cannot even appoint the sub-postmasters in your constituency?" I suppose he thought that since, according to him, I could not possibly manage on £1,000 a year, I had certain jobs in my gift and that that was how I managed.

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  So I say there is the danger that the impression may be abroad that, if we are paid in such a way, we obtain money in other ways.
  I come back to the point, which was made so much of by the Prime Minister, that this is not the right time to increase our salaries. It never is the right time. Why was it not the right time in April, 1955, just before the General Election, when the Chancellor said that the party opposite had saved the country, and when he was able to distribute £150 million in tax relief? Was not that the time when consideration should have been given to this problem? No, the statement that this is not the time is not a reason, it is an excuse.
  Hon. Members are overstating the case if they say that by relieving the position with regard to expenses and so on there will be such opposition from the country that their task will be even more difficult. The only opposition last time came from local Conservative organisations. We ought to express gratitude to those Conservative Members of Parliament who stood up against their local organisations on that occasion. There was no other opposition throughout the country.
  The hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) said that there was jealousy of Members of Parliament. If there is jealousy it must be confined to local Conservative organisations. I have not found it elsewhere. I think my experience has been that of most hon. Members, and I know that at the Election in my constituency there was not a single question asked on this matter. I do not think the Express newspapers necessarily represent the views of the people of this country, nor that people necessarily want politics on the cheap. This is a full-time job and an important job. I can think of no more important and satisfying job than trying to do our work here on behalf of 50 million people. I am sure those 50 million would not react in the way the Prime Minister suggested they would react.
  8.3 p.m.
  Mr. A. E. Cooper: I cannot find myself in substantial agreement with much of what the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn) has said. Although I support the claim for a substantial increase in hon. Members' emoluments, I do not believe
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  that an increase at this time would meet with approval in the country. I believe the opposition would come, not only from members of the Conservative Party throughout the country, but we should find very powerful opposition from old-age pensioners.
  I find the opposition in my constituency very strong even at this time. Although the Government have said quite firmly that no increase is to be given at present, I have had a considerable number of letters from old-age pensioners on this subject. I say quite frankly that I could not possibly vote myself an increase in salary unless something substantial were done for old-age pensioners. [Interruption.] Hon. Members may think that a very strange point of view, but it is the point of view which I take—[An HON. MEMBER: "Which everyone takes."] It would be a convenience to me if I were permitted to speak one sentence without interruption.
  I think we have ourselves very largely to blame for the attitude of mind of the general public on this subject. I think our public relations generally have been very bad. We have failed over the years to educate the public to a proper appreciation of what a Member of Parliament has to do on his salary and what the job entails. It is all very well for the man in the street to say, "You knew what you were letting yourself in for when you put up for election", but in fact we do not know what we are letting ourselves in for then. Subsequently we know, and if we find the task beyond us after the first Election the responsibility for carrying on rests fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the hon. Member who wishes to continue as a Member.
  The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde has told us of the difficulty in which many hon. Members find themselves and which I do not doubt for a moment, but if the task is beyond them they ought not to stand again. It is not right for a man in any walk of life to carry on any vocation which jeopardises the security of his family.
  Mr. Blackburn: I take it that the hon. Member is arguing that only the well-to-do should be Members of this House?
  Mr. Cooper: I am not arguing anything of the sort—
  Mr. Shurmer: That was the statement.
  Mr. Cooper: I am simply pointing out that to be a Member of this House is not a task imposed on anyone; it rests entirely on the personal responsibility of the man or woman seeking to be an hon. Member.
  I wish to draw the attention of the wider public to some of the things that we have to do and for which I think we should be recompensed. One very minor discrimination is that all of us who have London constituencies are able to telephone anybody within our constituencies free of any charge. The telephone boxes are free to us, but any Member of Parliament who represents a constituency outside the London area and wishes to telephone to that constituency has to pay for the call. That is a discrimination which is utterly unfair.
  On the question of travel discrimination works the reverse way. Every Member of Parliament is entitled to a free travel warrant between this place and his constituency. Maybe he goes to his constituency only once a week when he leaves here on a Thursday night or on Friday. Often he does not live in the constituency and perhaps for a week he does not need to go there. If it happens that his place of residence is not in his constituency he does not get the travel warrant.
  Mr. Shurmer: Of course he does.
  Mr. Cooper: All I can say to the hon. Member for Sparkbrook (Mr. Shurmer) is that those of us in London do not get treated in the same way—
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: Of course they do.
  Mr. Cooper: I can only quote my experience. My constituency is Ilford, South. I can have a free travel warrant to Ilford. I live in Chigwell, and the distance is precisely the same mileage, but I am not given a travel warrant. I use my car—
  Mr. Shurmer: And put in expenses.
  Mr. Cooper: I am not allowed expenses for that. It is no use the hon. Member for Sparkbrook sitting babbling all the time; I do not get expenses for my car.
  Mr. William Hamilton: I think the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) is under a general misapprehension. I do not want to defend
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  the generosity of the Government, but it is a fact that a Member of Parliament gets a travel warrant for the journey between his constituency and this place and between his home and this place. That is a well-known fact.
  Mr. Cooper: If I travel by my own car to Chigwell, which is 11 miles from here, I am given no Income Tax allowance for that by the Income Tax authorities. I also get no Income Tax allowance for travelling by my car from Chigwell to Ilford, which is four miles. On the other hand, when I drive about inside Ilford it seems that I can use as much petrol as I need and claim an Income Tax allowance for it. That is an inconsistency and it ought to be put right.
  Mr. Shurmer: That is right.
  Mr. Cooper: I wish the hon. Member would keep quiet.
  I turn to the question of secretarial expenses and postage. The general public believe that secretarial assistance and free postage are provided, and when we tell people that this assistance is not provided they are astonished. It has always seemed to me distressing, if I may use the term, to see many hon. Members, from both sides of the House, in the Library every morning from about 9.30 or 9.45 dealing with their constituency correspondence in longhand because they cannot afford the services of a secretary to deal with it. I do not think their constituents sent them here to act as personal secretaries and wet nurses to everybody in the division.
  Some hon. Members are more fortunate. I have a job; all the money I have, I earn. None is unearned. I am therefore in a position to pay, out of my Parliamentary salary, for the services of a secretary. People say, "But you get an allowance for that". I never know what they mean by that statement. What happens is that an hon. Member pays his secretary and charges that against his £1,000 as an ordinary expense; but he does not get an additional sum of money for having paid the secretary's salary.
  The position is the same in connection with expenses on postage and stationery. I do not know what all hon. Members spend on postage in the course of a year, but I know the figures in my own case because we keep a postage book and a telephone and telegram account. My bill

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  for stamps and telephone and telegram expenses last year was £132; and I believe that to be an average figure for hon. Members. The general public are firmly of the opinion that they already pay this bill, but in fact they do not; we pay it.
  Next, we have that wonderful provision of Schedule E under which we can charge only those expenses necessarily incurred in the execution of our duties as Members of Parliament. It seems to me that not all tax inspectors agree about which expenses are necessarily incurred in the execution of these duties.
  Although I agree that at this time we ought not to increase our salaries, it seems to me that even now the Government ought to find it possible, without exacerbating public opinion or encouraging wage claims, to provide free secretarial services, postage facilities, and other facilities of that sort for hon. Members.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. Frank McLeavy: While I do not entirely agree with all the points made by the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper), perhaps I may deal during my speech with those points with which I do agree. In the first place, I should like to follow the very fair practice of all hon. Members speaking in the debate by saying frankly, that I am not entirely dependent upon my Parliamentary salary, and I regard my intervention this evening more in the sense of a public duty than anything else.
  I want first to join the hon. Member for Ilford, South in expressing surprise that the general public have not been clearly advised by the national Press of the financial position of Members of Parliament. As a matter of fact, if a Member of Parliament sees a mis-statement in some weekly periodical and takes the trouble to write to correct it, it is within our experience that if it is a correction of a misrepresentation of the pension or pay of hon. Members, the newspapers do not think it of sufficient importance to give publicity to the correction. Over many years a certain section of the Press has been deliberately misrepresenting the cash which an hon. Member receives and not giving reasonable publicity to the explanations which hon. Members have sought to make, either in the House or by letter to the Press.
  It is extremely important that the public should know that the largest part
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  of the £1,000 paid to an hon. Member goes in his expenses and that what is left for the hon. Member to live on is less than the ordinary artisan gets today in the factory or the workshop. Speaking as a life-long trade unionist, I should have no hesitation in going to my trade union branch or to a meeting of my constituents and telling them frankly that when we reach the situation in which hon. Members, after they have met all their expenses, do not receive as much as an ordinary artisan in the factories, it is time that the situation was changed. Is it suggested for one moment that there would be any opposition in those circumstances to an improvement in the position of hon. Members so that they may live more in accordance with the general standard of the people?
  When the unanimous Report of the Select Committee was presented two years ago, I contribute an article to the London Star recommending it as the right and proper solution or at least as one way to improve the financial and pension position of Members of Parliament. In accordance with the usual democratic tradition, the Telegraph and Argus of Bradford, which is the evening paper in my constituency, felt that my contribution to the Star was of such importance and such great public interest that it reproduced the whole of the article for my benefit and the benefit of the electors. The paper gave it great play. I should like to pay this tribute to the editor; he published a leading article more or less supporting my article.
  Despite all the humbug and hyprocrisy about the people being opposed to the increase, there was not a single letter in the Press—not even from an old lady of the Primrose League—criticising my article. Nor did I receive a critical letter from one of my constituents. After all, the average citizens are decent-minded individuals. They like fair play, and they like to feel that those who represent them are receiving fair consideration from the community.
  I should like now to refer to the events of two years ago. In the first place, the Government of the day agreed that it was right and proper that the financial position of hon. Members should be examined, and a Select Committee, by common agreement of the House of Commons, was set up. Because of the

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  political complexion of the Government of the day, that Select Committee had a Conservative majority. It spent a very long time, very rightly and properly, in examining the whole position of hon. Members, and eventually presented one of the most interesting human documents that I have read for many long years. That document revealed the poverty and tragedy of people who sought to serve the community, who put public-spirited service before the meaner aims of life.
  What happened? The Government themselves were impressed by the Report, and said, "Yes, we think that this is a proper matter for a free vote of the House. It is a House of Commons matter. It is one upon which the supreme court of the land should decide". As a consequence there was a free vote, which resulted in a majority of 114 in favour of the recommendations of the Committee, subject to the pensions scheme being referred to the Trustees for further consideration.
  I want to say this to the Government, and I do so with the greatest sincerity. I do not know whether it was then realised that when the Government decided not to implement the decision of the House of Commons—arrived at on a free vote, with the approval of the Government—they were acting in defiance of the High Court of Parliament. They were, in fact, conserving for themselves a power and a right which does not belong to Her Majesty the Queen—I think that I am perfectly right Mr. Deputy-Speaker.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris): The hon. Member is wrong in his reference. He must not make that reference.
  Mr. McLeavy: I am stating the fact.
  The Government were usurping powers that are not in the hands of the reigning sovereign. In other words, they were over-riding the will of Parliament, which was that the dignity of Parliament should be maintained. By doing so, they struck a very severe blow at the principle of democracy. It is no use for Ministers to talk about the glorious democratic system of the British Parliament, if, when it suits them, they are going to throw it overboard. This democracy of ours is the greatest in the world, and it is our duty
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  to try to preserve it by all means in our power. One of the greatest tragedies occurred two years ago, when the Government did that disservice to democracy, which may have very serious repercussions in the future.
  I always regarded the Report of that Select Committee, not as a solution of the problem, but as a kind of first-aid until Parliament felt that it could deal with the matter more effectively and with greater satisfaction to hon. Members. I never regarded the recommendation except as something which would help hon. Members to get over their immediate difficulties. It is a shocking thing that two years ago such a very reasonable recommendation was turned down, and that we had substituted for it a system of sessional allowances.
  It is all very well for the Prime Minister to come to the House and to say "Yes, we admit that there is a case, but the time is not opportune". I ask, when will the time be opportune? The Prime Minister knows very well that some junior Ministers today are in such a serious financial condition that it is affecting their ability to discharge their responsibilities to their families. There is no denying that. I warn the Government that unless something is speedily done for junior Ministers, as well as for the more financially-embarrassed Members, they will find themselves with a few resignations on their hands. We cannot expect, and I am sure that the general public does not expect, that whether a person be a junior Minister or an hon. Member, he should sacrifice his family life and his family because someone, in a mood of stupidity, pretends that the responsibility cannot be met.
  It will be a bad day when we cannot afford to meet the responsibility of paying Ministers, junior Ministers and Members of Parliament a salary commensurate with the job, and one which will allow them to live, not extravagantly, but a decent life such as other citizens enjoy. A democracy that cannot do that is not worthy of the name. In the Dominion of Australia they have dealt with the position. A population no greater than that of London can deal with it without passing each of its representatives through the political cesspool, and without pretending that difficulties do not prevail.
  Nobody believes that if hon. Members received this modest rise, which

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  would result in their being paid about £300 a year more, it would create a demand by workers for increases in wages. There are only two factors—and I speak from long experience of the trade union movement—which decide an application for increased wages, and those are the increased cost of living and the ability of the industry to pay the increased rates. There is no other consideration. The Prime Minister comes to the House pretending that he is so nervous lest he disturbs the trade unions throughout the country. I wish he had been a little more nervous about the Government's policy which is causing the demand for increased wages and the serious inflationary position.
  I want to deal also with another point concerning the quality of Members of Parliament and the quality of Ministers. Ever since the war we have been rolling from one financial crisis to another, and apart from our sacrifices in the war, and many other circumstances which have created difficulties, I believe that one of the major factors in our repeated financial crises is the fact that the quality of the service of Ministers and of Members of Parliament has been seriously affected by the limitations which are imposed.
  I am not suggesting that all Ministers are inefficient; they are not. But the Ministers, in the main, whether they are principal Ministers or junior Ministers, are drawn from the Members of this House and, therefore, the quality of Ministers depends upon the quality of the Members of the House of Commons. What have we been doing for many years? We have been making it financially impossible for young men and young women to come into the House of Commons because they are not prepared to sacrifice, not only their financial position, but the interests of their families.
  We have to get away from that position. We have to make up our minds that Parliament shall be open to the best possible brains, from whatever source they come, and it can only be open if we make sure that the salaries and the conditions of Members of Parliament are such that they will be able to live a reasonably respectable life and be able to carry out their duties to the community without having financial worries following them wherever they go.
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  There is another argument which is very often used. It is said: why do not Members get some outside interest? I am not one of those who would like to see passed in this House of Commons legislation which prohibited Members of Parliament from carrying on outside vocations. I think there is a great deal to be said for a mixture of representation from every section of the community.
  But there are two distinct classes of outside interest. There is the Member who is a director of one or a number of companies, who comes in to the House of Commons because he wants to give public service. Like many of us, he has probably served on local authorities for many years, and he has the urge to come to the House of Commons in order to contribute to our work the benefit of his knowledge and experience. He comes to the House of Commons, but he wants to retain his connection with industry and with the firms with which he has been associated. I should be the last man in the world to say that we ought to try to stop him. It is a good thing that these men do come forward.
  There are other types of directorships and appointments which are not quite so honest, not quite so clear-cut, or as good from the Parliamentary point of view. They are the appointments which are given to Members because they are Members of the House of Commons, because the people who give the appointments think the influence of Members on Ministers or in the House on policy can be used for the furtherance of the interests of the particular concern giving the directorship or because of some other consideration.
  I know Members of this House who have been asked to do all sorts of things for monetary consideration, to use their position and influence as Members in the furtherance of something which they would not touch at all. I mention this because it shows how dangerous it is to pay Members a salary which is an invitation to them to seek something which affects not only their freedom in the House, but effects their standard of Membership of the House.
  I have always been regarded as a reasonable man in local government and in industrial negotiation. I believe that

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  reasonableness, common sense and common decency are all that the British people want to see. I appeal to the Home Secretary, and I ask him to convey my appeal to the Prime Minister. Let us get rid of this humbug and hypocrisy about not being able to pay Members of Parliament a miserable £1,500 a year, when we know very well that out of that £1,500 a year half will go in the costs of carrying out the job.
  Why should we refuse to meet the situation? We have allowed an increase in pensions and an increase in all kinds of salaries for Government officials, etc. I am not complaining; they were perfectly justified increases. But why should a Member of Parliament always be told that the time is not opportune? If there is a case—and the Government do not reject our claim that there is an overwhelming case—if Members of Parliament are really in financial difficulties because they are trying to do a public job, trying to uphold the dignity of this House and of democratic Government in our country, then, if the Government have not got the guts to meet that case, they are not worthy to guide the destiny of this great democratic nation.
  8.40 p.m.
  Commander Agnew: The debate, opened by the Leader of the Opposition in a speech of study, moderation and objectivity and continued by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in that vein, has been remarkably free from party rancour and even from party political difference. One or two speeches, however, from the benches opposite have been guilty of an over-simplification. They have sought to show that the private financial position of hon. Members could be divided into two groups, aligned roughly in accordance with the two political parties which face one another on the House. I believe that today that is quite untrue.
  I do not usually turn to a paper like the Sunday Express when I want to get information—I generally read other newspapers—but I noticed some time ago that it was running a series giving, I thought in questionable taste, the private incomes of hon. Members. I think it has done all parties in succession. I have not noticed that any actions for libel have followed those statements which appeared
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  in that newspaper, and so I think that the information which I have derived from it is that, broadly speaking, the private incomes, whether earned or unearned or outside resources other than the emoluments that this House pays to those who serve it, are divided up amongst the parties and cannot be aligned with any particular party.
  I think that the case for an increase, and a substantial increase too, in the emoluments of Members of Parliament has been very fully made, but I hasten to say that I am entirely at one with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that this is not the time to do it. I will revert to that later. If the Report from the Select Committee on Members' Expenses in 1954 was accurate then in suggesting the right figure for emoluments and the level to which they should be raised, I am not at all sure that that Report today is not rather out of date and that if we were reconsidering the matter with another Committee we should not be right to fix higher levels.
  I support one of my hon. Friends in saying that, when the question comes to be considered, there should be some improvements in kind to reflect the direct services to which a Member must have access if he is to discharge his duties. The Member, of course, would benefit from them only in exact proportion to his use of the services in carrying out those very duties.
  We should not be frightened by those who suggested at the time that it would be a great mistake to restore franked postage because it would be abused. If a fixed allowance of franked envelopes were given, up to, perhaps, £100 worth a year for each hon. Member, it might well be that some Members—not more than a small minority—might use them for purposes for which they were not intended. If a Member were to do this, however, he would probably find that before the year was out he was having to pay 2½d. for letters he was writing to his own constituents.
  One point in the Report of the Select Committee which has been echoed in terms of support in the debate this afternoon is the proposal to institute service pensions as opposed to those pensions, which are not large in number or, indeed, large in amount, which can be awarded on grounds of hardship from the

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  Members' Fund. I believe that the proposal for service pensions—and I say this regrettably—is wholly unsound, and that it would be contrary to the public interest to bring a scheme of that kind in at all. I say that regardless of whether the finance for it is provided by deductions from hon. Members' salaries or entirely by the State, or by a combination of both.
  I think it would still be wrong to award it, and for one reason which overrides what otherwise I would find to be an attractive idea. We could not institute such a scheme without having fixed a term of years of service, on the lines of the Committee's Report, after which a Member would qualify to draw a pension. There might, in the vicissitudes of politics, come a time when a Member who has given a large number of years' service but has never qualified for the pension might find himself standing once again as a candidate, when may be there was some swing against the views which his political party represented in the country and in his constituency.
  The British people are very tolerant. They do not like a good batsman being knocked out before his time, or in any way other than by being clean bowled. I think there will be quite a serious risk on such an occasion that if that respected Member, who had given a number of years' service, was confronted by a young candidate, the word might be passed round that it would be rather a pity if Mr. Snooks lost his seat this time, or if Major Patriot was not allowed to serve in another Parliament.
  I think the institution of such a pension would carry with it the risk of a form of corruption based upon the kindness and tolerance of the British people, but not wholly in accordance with the clear decision which the people ought to take on the merits of a political case put forward at an election in that constituency.
  Mr. K. Zilliacus: To take the case of a man who lost a leg in the war and who would have a sentimental advantage, would the hon. and gallant Gentleman regard that as a form of corruption?
  Commander Agnew: No, of course not. That is not a form of corruption; it is a very great misfortune to him, which some hon. Members, to our recent knowledge, bore with great fortitude while they were
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  Members of this House. I do not think that the rise of the Member whom the hon. Gentleman opposite has in mind, as I have, who rose to be a Cabinet Minister in this House, was in any way due to the fact that he was given a good start off because he had only one leg. His promotion was based on his merits.
  I have said that I think the case is made out, but in a short speech, and it needed only to be a short speech, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House that it could not be done now. The reasons he gave were certainly not political reasons. They were reasons which are based on nothing less than the public interest, because it is right that if this House sets itself out to be composed of public-spirited people who come here to give public service, it is part of that service not only that they should say that they are public-spirited, but that they should endeavour, at some sacrifice to themselves in many cases, to demonstrate that they are capable in fact of being public-spirited. I venture to think that it would be wrong at this time for increases in the emoluments of Members of Parliament to be made in advance of the times.
  Mr. W. R. Williams: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman care to give an assurance to the House that he is living solely on what he is getting as a result of being a Member?
  Commander Agnew: I certainly cannot give that assurance.
  Mr. George Thomas: The hon. and gallant Gentleman would not be so sanctimonious if he could.
  Commander Agnew: I trust that I have not been sanctimonious in my approach to this matter. I believe it to be true that if we were to accede to what we wish to do—that is to improve the emoluments of all of us—we should be going against, militating against, the successful accomplishment of our task, the battle against inflation which has to be carried on by Government, Parliament and people.
  Mr. Hayman: Before the hon. and gallant Gentleman concludes, will he comment on the fact that the Government

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  refused to accede to the clear decision of the House, two years ago, that the Blue Book Report should be implemented?
  Commander Agnew: It is not necessary for me to comment on that. I was not a party to that decision, because I was not a Member of the House at the time; but I will say that I thought at that time that the Government were right not to accede to the demand. I hasten to add that the reason they did not accede appeared to me, from a distance in the country, to be a different reason from the one that exists today for postponing the demand.
  Mr. Shurmer: What was the reason?
  Commander Agnew: The reason given at that time was that there were certain classes of the community in respect of whom the time was overdue for an improvement in their financial situation, and it would have been wrong to have given increases to Members of Parliament first. When I became a Parliamentary candidate last year, I noted that these improvements had in fact been made in the incomes of the classes of the community I have referred to.
  8.53 p.m.
  Mr. John Taylor: I was not a little astonished at the last argument of the hon. and gallant Member for Worcestershire, South (Commander Agnew). He might have been wiser had he cut short his reply to the intervention of my hon. Friend. In the course of his main speech, the hon. and gallant Member said that he agreed with the Prime Minister that this was not the appropriate time. He added that two years ago, during a fiscal year in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave away £150 million in Income Tax relief, the time was not opportune either. I wonder if ever it will be opportune. Every time this matter has been debated, in the minds of those who have opposed, it has never been opportune to grant an increase.
  In the middle of his speech, the hon. and gallant Gentleman presented what seemed to me to be a curious argument, that Members who are advanced in years have a special sentimental value to their constituents and are tempted or cajoled to stay on longer. He said, for some reason or other, that if we had a pension
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  scheme that would increase that tendency. In fact, there is no pension scheme now, and because of the absence of such a scheme there are hon. Members who have been tempted, indeed almost forced, to stay on and maintain their membership when they might well have retired—and really perhaps ought to have retired. They cannot afford to retire, because they have nothing to retire on. They have to give many years of good and faithful service to the country as Members of this House. At a time when, had they been in any other occupation, they would have retired on a superannuation or pension scheme, because of the absence of any such scheme they have been forced, in certain circumstances, to maintain their membership of the House.
  I sought to catch your eye, Sir, with some misgivings. Probably every hon. Member who has joined in the debate may have had to conquer similar misgivings. In my own case, they arose because I wondered if it were possible for one who is himself affected, being entirely dependent upon our emoluments—as they have been described—to speak objectively as every hon. Member ought to endeavour to speak in making a speech in this House. I think we ought not to speak if there is a risk that we would be prejudiced by our own personal conditions.
  This is, of course, for me and for a large number of my colleagues a full-time job. It cannot be otherwise, because we not only give service to our constituents and to our country, but we give additional service to Parliament and to the machinery and operation of Parliament. So for that reason it must be a full-time job, and I, in common with many of my colleagues, work a a minimum of a 16-hour day. If one includes the hours that we spend at weekends in the service of our constituents, it is seldom less than an 80-hour week, so that it is not merely a full-time job, but a double-time job, and the possibility of earning anything other than our Parliamentary salary does not exist for some hon. Members.
  So, as I say, Sir, it was with some misgivings that I endeavoured to catch your eye, because I do not want to make this a personal matter. However, this is a United Kingdom Parliament, and Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom. No other Scottish Member has

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  sought to catch your eye, Sir, and as one who intimately knows the problems of my colleagues and fellow-countrymen who are hon. Members on this side of the House, it seemed to me that it might not be inappropriate if I ventured to say a word or two for some of them who, I know, are severely affected by the present limits of their incomes as Members of Parliament.
  It is difficult for a Scottish Member, as indeed for a Member representing any constituency—I was going to say north of the Trent, but I think I may say north of St. Albans—to have a subsidiary occupation in London. It is particularly difficult for Scottish Members, especially those of the Opposition, because Scottish constituencies tend to select Labour candidates who have served an apprenticeship in local government and in the workshops and in the mines as working men. They are a little chary about selecting candidates who are members of professions, so we have amongst my colleagues who are Scottish Members representing constituencies as Labour Members of Parliament, an overwhelming majority of working men. It is, in the nature of things, impossible for them to have subsidiary occupations.
  The additional expenses of my compatriots are on average higher than those of other Members of Parliament. I do not want to over-paint the picture; I want to avoid any exaggeration. Let me say at once that some of my hon. Friends who have no other source of income manage to exist on their Parliamentary salary. They can do so only because they are exceedingly frugal. Most of them are teetotallers, and a great many are nonsmokers as well. When they come to London, they spend the whole of their time in the Palace of Westminster. Their only sortie's out of the precincts of the House are to go to their trains at Euston or King's Cross at the end of the week or to the cheap lodgings which most of them use on the other side of the river
  Their constituents are not exacting in their demands upon them. Their constituents, like my own, do not make extravagant demands on their Members when visiting them in this building. They do not expect expensive meals; they are satisfied with a cup of tea in the Cafeteria, a very fortunate circumstance for us. Also, they do not eat in the Members' Dining Room.
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  The majority of my colleagues have not had a meal in the Members' Dining Room for three years. I have not. I could not afford it. Some of my colleagues bring their lunch at the beginning of the week. If it is possible for them to do so, those who live within a reasonable distance bring their lunch every day, buy a cup of tea in the Members' Tea Room and sit there eating their sandwiches and drinking their tea.
  There is a particularly glaring case concerning one of my colleagues. There was a three-line Whip on the Tuesday. He did not come here on the Monday. He travelled during the Monday night. He had a Question affecting his constituency on the Order Paper for the Thursday. He had enough money to buy his lunches and teas but not enough to pay his lodgings. He was a man with a family. He did what I think he ought not to have done, but it was the only course open to him. On the Tuesday night, after the vote for which the three-line Whip had been issued, he took the train back to Scotland in order to get somewhere to sleep, and he came back during the daytime on Wednesday for a vote on the Wednesday night. In some way or another, he managed to survive through that night—I believe he slept in the House—in order to ask the Question affecting his constituency on the Thursday.
  It is a most remarkable circumstance that, throughout the debate, no hon. Member has opposed the principle. Every hon. Member has been at great pains to explain patiently to the House that he knows that the case has been proved up to the hilt and his only opposition is on the matter of the timing. One hon. Member said that he would not feel easy in his conscience if he voted for the Motion unless old-age pensioners got more, and he said that that might seem an odd point of view. I assure him that it is not odd. We all say exactly the same thing.
  The expenses necessarily and unavoidably incurred, as the official phrase goes, by Members of Parliament in the conduct of their duties, vary, but from inquiries which I have made, I discovered that nowadays the unavoidable expenses of Members average £600 a year. That is the average which, when all the deductions which we all have are taken into

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  account, leaves him with about £600 a year on which to live.
  If a Member has a wife and four children, each member of the family has precisely what an old-age pensioner has, £2 a week on which to live. Because a Member of Parliament is expected—his constituents expect him if no one else does—to present a respectable appearance and to present himself in some decency in his constituency, his expenses put him in a position worse than that of the old-age pensioner.
  That is the stark fact, and let us have no more of this nonsense so frequently put out that we must do nothing until old-age pensioners get more. We are all in favour of old-age pensioners getting more immediately. The time is always opportune for that, but to say that because they do not get enough now Members of Parliament must not receive anything, is a non sequitur.
  It is not pleasant and not at all dignified that we should have to speak of our own case in this manner, and I have only ventured to speak on behalf of my Scottish colleagues because they will not speak for themselves. They have not sought to enter the debate, but I know their circumstances and conditions. A considerable percentage are good colleagues of mine and give good service to the House and are first-class representatives of their constituents. They demand little of life except—they do not regard it as a duty—the privilege of continuing to serve Parliament and their constituencies. I thought that someone should speak on their behalf, and I have ventured to do so tonight.
  I know that one or two hon. Members who have not yet spoken have been sitting here all day trying to catch your eye, Sir, and although there is much more to be said, I will content myself with thus inadequately stating the case of my hon. Friends. I do not think that on this day we can change the mind of the Government, because in this debate the case was put and answered before back benchers had an opportunity to state their case. As this is a House of Commons matter, I do not think that that was a very good way to conduct the debate.
  However, apparently the decision has been made. I hope that it is merely temporary and that my right hon. Friend the
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  Leader of the Opposition, who made a first-class and objective speech in opening the debate, will succeed in obtaining from the Home Secretary an answer to the one question, What is a reasonable time? Is it three months? It cannot be very much longer. We have a great admiration, affection and respect for the institution of the Parliament of this country. We feel aggrieved and definitely worried about the future of this institution when we condemn its Members to the kind of existence to which they are condemned. We feel that the issue is of greater importance than our personal problems. It is a long-term matter, but the solution cannot be much longer delayed and I hope that we shall have some definite and practical hope held out to us by the Home Secretary.
  9.5 p.m.
  Mr. K. Zilliacus: My hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. J. Taylor) has made a case that has sunk deep into the minds of hon. Members on both sides of the House. What he said proves not only that the present situation causes anxiety and hardship which should not be suffered by hon. Members in the execution of their duty, but that it is frankly a disgrace to this honourable House that such conditions should be suffered to continue.
  We are told that we have to put up with this and suffer in silence because it is part of the Government's fight against the inflationary boom. That argument reminds me of the lawyer defending a gangster who had murdered his parents and whose plea was that the court should show indulgence to that poor young man because he was an orphan.
  The Government are themselves responsible for the inflationary boom; it is their own policy which has produced this situation. How long are we going to have to wait, and how much is the community going to suffer—not just Members of Parliament, but old-age pensioners, workers and everybody else—while they apply this wage freeze? How long must this situation continue before some of these crying grievances are redressed? It is to be one, two or three months? How high must the cost of living soar and how desperate the plight of some hon. Members become before the Government move in the matter?

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  I want to make one final point, which has been implicit in many speeches made by hon. Members on both sides of the House but has never been put explicitly. Let us accept, for a moment, the Government's wage freeze argument. The Government's policy upon this issue is not to refuse any increase in wages, salaries and emoluments unconditionally, but to couple them with a rise in output. The point has been made again and again that when the present scale of salaries for Members of Parliament was fixed the assumption was that the job was a half-time or at most a two-thirds-time job. Everybody admits that it is a full-time job today. Very well; we have increased our output, and upon the Government's own wage freeze argument we should receive an increase in salary of between 50 per cent. and 100 per cent.
  The real value of the £400 that we were granted when salaries were originally applied and Parliament was strictly a half-time job is well above the value of the present salary, when the job is a full-time one. On the Government's own policy, therefore, that wage increases should be related to increases in output, hon. Members of this House are due for a substantial increase in salary now.
  9.13 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Stewart: Any Member of this House who urges at any time that the emoluments of hon. Members should be increased lays himself open to charges which may be made by the envious or by others arguing in good faith but without being acquainted with the facts of the situation. In view of that, I hope that the House will forgive me if I mention how this matter of a possible increase would affect me, because, for all of us, that is the measuring rod by which to judge how the increase will affect other hon. Members, and how good is the case for an increase.
  I have the undoubted good fortune to have both a London home and a London constituency. A journey four stations along by underground railway takes me home from here; a journey another four stations along the line will take me to the town hall of my constituency. There can be few Members more fortunate than I in that respect, in the matter of saving not only expense but time and energy. In addition, as has been pointed out, many incidental advantages accrue to a
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  Member who represents a London constituency. Despite the attempts at framing an Income Tax allowance which will have some regard to the needs of provincial Members, occasions crop up every day when the London Member finds himself at an advantage.
  In addition to that, I think I should mention that I am able to add to my Parliamentary income by writing. But since my writings deal entirely with educational matters, they are not one of the more lucrative forms of literature or journalism. I have now no children dependent on me. My wife is able to earn a small sum of money. In all those respects, therefore, compared with many hon. Members, I am fortunately placed, and as a result I find that I can just about manage, but no more.
  I do not think I am a person of particularly extravagant tastes, and I am conscious all the time that though I can just about manage, I still cannot really do the job as it ought to be done; that I am myself doing parts of my work which, in the public interest, I should be employing someone else to do for me, so as to be able to concentrate on those parts of our work that can be done only by the person whom the electorate has chosen and who has acquired experience of how to handle Parliamentary life and problems.
  That is all I propose to weary the House with about my own position. The reason why I have said it is that if that be my position, with the many factors that make it easy for me, how desperate must be the position of hon. Members—and I accept that they are to be found on both sides of the House—who have provincial and distant constituencies and a family of young children dependent on them? My hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. J. Taylor) illustrated with moving eloquence what must be the position of his fellow-countrymen. I am sure he will agree, indeed, I think he said, that one does not need to go as far north as the Border to find these difficulties arising. Lest it be thought that I am putting the position of London Members too easily, may I say that there are many of my colleagues—again on both sides of the House—who are London Members, but who do not happen to enjoy the other quite modest advantages that I happen to enjoy, who find they are in a situation of extreme difficulty.

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  These difficulties attack a Member in a peculiarly exasperating and undignified fashion, and nag all the time at the morale and good spirits which he ought to enjoy, if he is to do the exacting job of being a legislator properly. Is it reasonable that an hon. Member should have to look at his Whip when he receives it and assess the number of attendances at this House which is absolutely required on the one hand, and what he can afford in hotel bills on the other? If the public realised that—and it is true that many hon. Members are in that position—they would say, "That is not what we want. Whatever opinion we may have expressed about Members' salaries, we never intended that a result of that kind should follow."
  If an hon. Member finds that one of his constituents is in the kind of trouble about which it is proper to ask for the help of his Member, and which has to be dealt with quickly if it is to be dealt with at all, is it right or reasonable that the Member should have to say to himself—as many hon. Members who represent distant constituencies have tosay—"Is this really one of the cases where I can afford a trunk telephone call?" I cannot believe that the public wish hon. Members of this House to be placed in that position.
  Perhaps the most absurd and grotesque thing of all is that if this House sits later than usual, hon. Members make the discovery that the fact that one does not normally eat during the night because one is asleep. But if one is made to work during the night, the digestive desires for food are as apparent as during the day-time. Is it reasonable that when that happens hon. Members should have seriously to consider whether they can afford to eat, or whether they must pretend they are spending the night asleep when in fact they are spending it at work?
  The last anxiety of all, if an hon. Member's career continues for many years, is the nagging question which comes to him, "Ought I, out of regard to the need of my constituents to be represented by someone in possession of full vigour, ought I out of regard perhaps for the natural ambitions and hopes of younger men, to conclude my Parliamentary career?" He cannot answer that question on its merits, but has to weigh
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  it against the question, "Can I honestly afford to do so?"
  I have mentioned four examples of the kind of anxieties which affect hon. Members. Those are only four out of a very considerable list. One reason why they are not mentioned so often, particularly by those who suffer from these anxieties, is the indignity of having to mention them. One reason I am very glad to have had this opportunity to speak in the debate is that these anxieties do not nag me so bitterly as they do some hon. Members. Consequently, I can give them the expression which I believe they ought to have.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) described how that kind of thing battered down year after year the energy and vital force of our friend the late Frank Fairhurst. The real tragedy of that story was not the death at the end, it was the years of anxiety, exhaustion and frustration to which he was subjected. It is only after men like Frank Fairhurst are dead that it is considered seemly to describe the anxieties they go through. If any hon. Members in any part of the House imagine that there are not cases like that happening to some hon. Members now, they are mistaken, and it is just as well that we should realise that.
  Ordinary decency and convention would prevent us mentioning by name any hon. Members in that position now, but it is a rather macabre situation that we can only describe these difficulties after they have prematurely terminated the life of the hon. Member who was subjected to them. If anyone was moved—who could not have been moved?—by the speech of my hon. Friend, let him remember that my hon. Friend was not describing merely a piece of past history, but something which happens to some of our colleagues at present.
  I turn from those aspects of the matter to some of the plain, simple, mathematical facts. I now want to mention one or two things which will be within the knowledge of hon. Members, but which are not within the knowledge of the general public. Only a few days ago, I met a man from a constituency neighbouring mine. Normally, one would have regarded him—as no doubt in most

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  matters he is—as a knowledgeable, well-informed person. He was quite genuinely and sincerely under the impression that the entire postage bills of all hon. Members were paid out of public funds. He was a man with plenty of opportunity to inform himself adequately. That is only one of many misapprehensions among the general public.
  It may be as well, perhaps, to put on record the plain, factual position that hon. Members of this House, private Members, receive £1,000 a year salary and a sessional allowance which in the normal Session is likely to amount to perhaps £260 or at the most £280. They have to travel to their constituencies from here, and the cost of such travel is met from public funds. If they write to Government Departments, they may use an envelope with "0.H.M.S." on it. By a recent concession, they may do the same if they write to the head of a nationalised industry. I think that must be included in the "other emoluments" mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn), who may not have noticed that that concession had recently been granted. That may be what escaped my hon. Friend's notice.
  Next, there is a limited amount of stationery, but nothing like enough.
  Mr. C. Pannell: Before my hon. Friend leaves the question of salaries, in view of the fact that someone might read his speech and not read mine, perhaps he will permit me to say that an hon. Member suffers a deduction of about £100 from his salary for the three weeks every time he fights an Election.
  Mr. Stewart: That is so.
  Hon. Members are subject to the law of the land with regard to Income Tax—and a great many members of the public are unaware of that. Towards the end of their lives they may get something which nobody in any other occupation would dream of calling a pension; they may be given the opportunity of receiving a benevolent allowance, subject to a means test. That is what it would be called in any other occupation—not a pension. For that, of course, an hon. Member has been contributing regularly at the rate of £12 a year all the time he has been in the House. I think I have now rehearsed everything that any private
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  Member gets as a result of being a Member of Parliament.
  Mr. Hamilton: If he has been in the House nine years and has paid £12 a year, and then leaves, he loses £108.
  Mr. Stewart: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. If his service is just short of ten years he has parted permanently with his contribution to the Members' Fund. My hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles), in a very well-informed speech, pointed out the austere bargain which the Exchequer drives with hon. Members both in regard to expenses and in regard to the administration of the Members' Fund.
  Perhaps whilst speaking of the Members' Fund I could address one question to the Home Secretary. The Prime Minister gave an indication that if the Members' Fund were to begin to pay out rather larger amounts, the Government might make a contribution of some kind. It was not clear to the House precisely what the Prime Minister had in mind. Was he thinking of a lump sum contribution? Was he thinking of the Government being prepared to underwrite a more generous scale of benefits? It would be helpful if that question could be answered when the Home Secretary replies.
  Against those emoluments, we know very well the expenses which hon. Members have to meet. The way in which many hon. Members have to deal with the position is, as I have suggested, by simply not spending enough to be able to do their job as it ought to be done—simply because they have not got the money to spend. I do not think I need elaborate that part of the matter further, because it is significant that every hon. Member who has spoken in the debate has agreed that there is no doubt at all that hon. Members ought to be more highly paid than they are. I am certain that nobody who has taken part in the debate today disputes that.
  I doubt whether any hon. Member, whatever part he may or may not have taken in the debate, questions that need. It has been established by the Select Committee inquiry, it has been established in earlier years, it has been admitted both today and on earlier occasions by the Government. There is no dispute that in comparison with their work, in comparison with other sections

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  of the community and in comparison with other Parliaments—and the comparison which one most naturally makes is with the Parliaments of the Dominions of the British Commonwealth—hon. Members of this House are not properly paid, and that that results for some of them merely in a diminution in their efficiency and for others in desperate hardship and anxiety which never leaves them all the time that they are Members of the House.
  That makes the task of an hon. Member, in a winding-up speech, a little more difficult than usual, because normally if one's task is to conclude a debate from this side of the House, one endeavours to summarise and answer the arguments which have been advanced against one's point of view. It would be extremely difficult to do that in this debate, but there are certain arguments, Mr. Speaker, that have a certain currency with the general public—arguments which have been advanced not so much in this House as outside it—to which I think it would be proper to refer.
  There is one, perhaps the crudest of the lot, which, expressed in its more dignified form, says that nothing should be done about Members' pay until the electorate have had the opportunity to pronounce upon the matter. In its cruder form it says "If you want more pay—put it in your Election address". The difficulty about dealing with that argument is that if one is talking to this House, which is acquainted with the facts of the matter and has political knowledge, the moment one touches it the argument falls to pieces and becomes so absurd that people wonder why one should attempt to answer it at all.
  Since it has been advanced, however, I think it is worth while to ask this question. Does anybody really believe that at a General Election the question of how much Members of Parliament ought to be paid is a major issue? Are we really expected, in an Election address which attempts, in about 500 words, to cover issues of home and world politics, to refer to a matter which might cost the electorate about £300,000 a year? Are we to have Elections conducted on something like these lines: "My name is Smith. My opponent, Mr. Robinson, wants £1,500 a year. I am prepared to do the job for a mere £1,000"? But the
  712
  man who says that has to look over his shoulder for the wealthy man who will come along and say "I will do it for nothing".
  If candidates did conduct Elections in that manner, I think that our electorate, having more sense than some of the newspapers which have conducted this campaign, would be inclined to say to the man who offered to do it for nothing "That is probably what you are worth." All this might sound absurd, but if there is any substance in this argument about the Election address that is really what we are being asked to do.
  To be more serious on that point, however, is it suggested that hon. Members who want an increase have concealed their views from their constituents? I do not believe it. This matter has been discussed over and over again, and any constituent who is at all interested in what his Member thinks about it must know what that Member's view is. If there are any of my own constituents who do not know what my view is about the matter I am all the more happy to have this opportunity of addressing the House.
  But this argument cuts both ways. If it is suggested that hon. Members who would speak or vote here for an increase ought to tell their constituents so, and I agree that they ought—although, as I say, it is not one of the major issues on which election hangs—surely it is equally true that some hon. Members who in their constituencies have taken the seemingly more popular line of advancing arguments against increasing our salaries might have been here today to advance some of those arguments against us. I think that that is a consideration to be borne in mind.
  Another general argument advanced is that, after all, we can get other work. Junior Ministers, of course, cannot, and I would agree that, just as there is a case for the Member of Parliament so there is a case for the junior Minister. Perhaps I may, as an ex-Whip, mention that there are still three unhappy people—Government assistant Whips who do exactly he same work as Government Whips but do not get anything at all in addition to their Parliamentary salaries. It is one of the absurdities of the whole position.

  713
  But compare a Member who does no other work than that of a Member of Parliament—and many of us must, or the House would not work—with a junior Minister. I must say, without malice against junior Ministers, that if the junior Minister cannot manage solely on what he gets a fortiori the Member of Parliament cannot manage solely on what he gets. I have tried both and speak from experience.
  If it is said that of course a Member of Parliament can get out of the difficulty by taking up other work, I would ask, what other work? [An HON. MEMBER: "Mining."] We understand that the future of the mining industry lies partly—I do not understand this matter very well—in the possibility of the discovery of some valuable deposits and the sinking of new shafts, and if one of them happened to be in Parliament Square the suggestion made by my hon. Friend might come to fruition, but that has not happened so far.
  We know, as I think the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham (Sir F. Markham) has said, that there are about five occupations available to hon. Members. Even if there were more occupations available is it desirable that all Members should, in order to make ends meet, have to seek other work? I appreciate the argument which says that it would not be a good thing if every single Member of the House were engaged upon Parliamentary duties and nothing else; that we might then become too self-centred a body. I will, for the sake of argument, accept that; but I say that if a Parliament composed entirely of whole-time Members is undesirable, a House of Commons composed entirely of part-time Members would be impossible, because the work would not be done.
  Let me say a word for some of my colleagues who engage in work such as sitting in the Public Accounts Committee and obscure but essential Select Committees, work which has absolutely no glory attached to it, is often tedious and in no sense makes a Member more attractive to his constituents, but which is an enormous consumer of time. If there were no hon. Members prepared to do that, and some of them are Members who could quite easily earn money
  714
  during that time, Parliament would not work.
  If we say that we value Parliamentary democratic institutions, we ought to have regard to the fact that these institutions would not work unless we had a considerable number of whole-time Members; and if a man in the twentieth century says, "I think that every Member ought to go out and spend part of his time earning money elsewhere", even if that were practicable and that advice were followed, it would make our democratic system unworkable in the running of a State so vast and complex as our own.
  There is another argument which has been advanced to some extent in this House today by the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper). He said that, after all, we choose to be Members of Parliament. He painted for us the picture of the hon. Member who got in the first time and then realised what he had let himself in for. But, said the hon. Member for Ilford, South, he need not stand again. It is entirely his own responsibility if he stands again. Is that advanced as an argument for doing nothing about Members' emoluments? If it is, where does it take us?
  Is such a Member to go to his local party organisation supporters in his constituency and say, "I am sorry, but you will have to find another candidate next time because I just cannot afford it"? Or is he to go to his electors and say, "I am not going to be your Member of Parliament next time because I cannot afford it"? If he does, have the electors no rights in this matter? It is true to say that we are here because we want to be, but we are not here for that reason alone. We are here because our constituents want us to be here.
  If we say that nobody need be an M.P. if he does not want to be, what we are really saying to the electors and to our constituents is, "This is a democracy, you can choose whoever you wish to be your M.P., but of course you must choose someone who either has independent means or pursues one of some half-dozen occupations which will enable him to earn money on the side when he is not attending to his Parliamentary duties; or you must choose someone whose age or family position is such that he can manage on an inadequate salary." We

  715
  can call that whatever system of government we like, but we cannot call it democracy. That is the heart of the matter, emphasised by the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham and the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies). This argument that we choose to be Members of Parliament and if we do not like it we need not be Members is really an argument that the choice of the electors ought to be limited to the more wealthy and the more fortunate.
  The process of limiting that choice is going on gradually now. It is not something which will happen catastrophically; it is something which, if we do nothing, will creep upon us gradually. Progressively fewer of those people who do not enjoy any of these advantages of independent means or the kind of occupation which can be combined with Membership of the House will offer themselves to the electorate. It will become increasingly difficult for young men with young children dependent upon them even to begin to offer themselves to the electorate. In this connection it should be remembered that most of us arrived here only after we had had one or two unsuccessful tries, and it is a good thing that that should be so. The age of entry into this House is quite high enough already, as high as is healthy for democracy. If we do nothing about this salary situation, it will gradually become higher.
  The weight of evidence piles up on every side. The arguments advanced against the case do not carry conviction. What really is the only argument of any substance against the Motion moved by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition? It is the argument that this is not the right time to do it. It really does not lie in the mouth of the Government to say that now, if I may say so, with respect, they having refused to do it after the judgment of the House in 1954 and after the Report of the Select Committee. We were entertained with the argument of the hon. and gallant Member for Worcestershire, South (Commander Agnew), who explained that on this occasion there was one reason why it was not right to do it, and that last time it also was not right to do it but for a different reason then. I did hope that he would look into the future and say
  716
  what will be the reason advanced next time, because I am sure there will be a next time. The ingenious mind which produced those few arguments will not be at a loss for a reason why the time is not appropriate.
  What has happened? It is not only a matter of time but of method. We are told we must not do what the Motion urges now because there is a danger of inflation. We were told in 1954 that we must not do it for reasons which satisfied the hon. and gallant Member for Worcestershire, South. We are not given any future date on which we could do it. We were told some years ago that we ought not to do it before the matter was properly examined. We had it examined by a Select Committee. Nothing was done after the Report of the Select Committee because to have done anything would suggest that the Government was being asked blindly to follow the recommendations of a Select Committee.
  It is not to be done through a Select Committee of this House. The Prime Minister does not think it right to deal with the question by means of an outside inquiry. It is not to be done by means of a straight increase of Members' salaries. Unless the Home Secretary has something to tell us, it is not to be done by an increase of services, as was suggested by the hon. and gallant Member for Worcestershire, South, or by an increase of pensions, as was suggested by the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd). Here may I say that I share the admiration which has been expressed for the splendid speech of the hon. Member for Cheadle.
  Apparently, everyone is agreed that what the Motion urges ought to be done; but it ought not to be done in this way, it ought not to be done in that way, or the other way; it ought not to be done either in the present, in the past, or in the future. That is really the position which the Government ask us to accept.
  I ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman this question. Is this really a happy or a dignified position for the Government to take up, where they have always to hunt round for some reason for not doing something which nobody in this House is prepared to get up and say ought not to be done? This chasing of subterfuges, I am afraid, really springs from a

  717
  nervousness, a timidity, a fear to face the stream of propaganda which comes from a rather malicious element in the community. It is the Government's job not to be intimidated by that kind of thing.
  The rather narrow and mean spirits who would be unmoved by the description given by my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West, and who would conduct the kind of campaign which we have had in the newspapers in this matter seem to me to be like the ghosts in the Homeric poems who fed on blood but would scatter and disappear if spoken to with the resolute voice of a man. It is with resolution that we ask the Government now to speak on this issue.
  9.45 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Major Gwilym Lloyd-George): I have left myself very little time to reply, mainly for two reasons. The first is that I was anxious that as many back bench Members as possible should speak, which I know was the general desire, and the second that I, in common with so many Members of the House, am so much in agreement with what has been said that I have very little to add.
  I have sat throughout practically the whole debate, and as I sat here I could not help thinking of one or two things. Some people are critical of this House and of Members, and, in particular, their long holidays and so on. Somebody who was writing the other day said how empty the House is on various occasions and that he was perfectly certain that it would not be empty when we were discussing Member's pay. I would hardly describe today as a very full House while I have been here.
  We have had some very good speeches indeed, and one or two very moving speeches, particularly the speech of the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. J. Taylor). We all know that the difficulty in this matter is not confined to one side of the House—that is well known. Hon. Members may be surprised to hear that I have been conscious of this problem almost ever since I can remember. My father was a Member of Parliament when I was born. There was no pay at all in those days, and he was a Member for twenty-one years before any payment of any kind was introduced. It is true that
  718
  he became a Minister after sixteen years—
  Mr. W. R. Williams: He would have starved but for his uncle.
  Major Lloyd-George: It was not altogether that. He used to do a bit of work himself as well. I am very well aware of the great difficulties which not only he but a great number of his colleagues faced at that time. I met them as a small boy, and I know what a terribly difficult time he had. It was his great privilege to move the Resolution in August, 1911, which brought the first payment to Members of £400 a year.
  I would say to the hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus), who said that in 1911 it was only a half-time job, that I do not think anybody who reads the history of 1909 to 1911 could assume that the House of Commons was a half-time job. In fact, it was a time-and-a-half job for two or three years, particularly between 1909 and 1911 and really up to the war. I have that experience of my early days in this matter. I have also had my own experience in regard to Parliamentary Secretaries. I know exactly the difficulties which confront them, and they are very serious indeed.
  I have little else to add. I agreed with most of the things that have been said here today, although there were one or two things with which I did not agree. I am not at all sure that I would agree with the need for an outside inquiry into this matter. This is essentially a House of Commons affair. After all, who knows the difficulties of Members of Parliament better than Members of the House of Commons?
  Mr. G. R. Lindgren: The Government would not take any notice of the last inquiry.
  Major Lloyd-George: That is quite irrelevant. The suggestion has been made that there should be an outside inquiry, and I have said why I disagree with it. That is all, and if the hon. Gentleman does not understand that, I cannot help him.
  Nor do I agree with linking up with the pay of the Civil Service, although I agree very much with what has been said by my hon. Friend, and repeated, I think, by the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart), to the effect that we should do

  719
  anything we can to avoid the constant airing in the House of the difficulties of Members of Parliament, which are very serious. I entirely agree with that, but I feel that it is a matter which is best left to ourselves.
  The hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Royle) and the hon. Member for Fulham raised the question of the Members' Fund. I was out of the Chamber at the time the point was made, but I understand that the Government were asked if they would underwrite the Fund for, say, £75,000 in order to enable the Trustees to make the pensions more generous. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister indicated this afternoon that the Government do not exclude the possibility of making a contribution to the Members' Fund.
  Mr. Royle: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman says the Government do not exclude it; will he say they include it?
  Major Lloyd-George: I think that when I have finished speaking the hon. Member will realise that include would be better.
  As to the order of the contribution which might be desirable and the way in which it would be used, I think we should be advised in that matter by the Trustees. I can only repeat that the Government are sympathetic towards helping ex-Members and will be happy to receive a proposal of that sort from the Trustees. I can also say that it will be considered very rapidly.
  720
  I have very little to add to what has already been said, and I can in fact only say one more word. The Government, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, agree that an increase is justified, but I can only repeat what my right hon. Friend said—because there is nothing else I can say—that while they agree about that, they do not think it is possible at this present moment; but there will be no delay whatsoever beyond what is necessary in the national interest.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  MEMBERS' SALARIES

    SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
    Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Bradfield [copy laid before the House, 5th July], approved.—[Mr. Deedes.]
    Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Haverfordwest [copy laid before the House, 5th July], approved.—[Mr. Deedes.]
    Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Gloucester [copy laid before the House, 5th July], approved.—[Mr. Deedes.]

  MATERNITY AND CHILD WELFARE CENTRES
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. E Wakefield.]
  9.54 p.m.
  Mr. H. A. Marquand: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health for coming here tonight. I hope he will feel that his presence is justified, because the question that I wish to bring to the attention of the House concerns not only my own constituency but, as far as I can see, also raises wider questions of Government policy.
  If I may briefly refer to the constituency point first of all, the older parts of Middlesbrough, which lie within my constituency, are a monument to the excesses of capitalism. When the iron and steel works, the railways and the docks were built there in the middle of the last century, what were put up for the labourers to live in were no better than stables, and many of these houses unfortunately still remain. In such conditions, mothers and children had no chance whatever, and over a prolonged period, the rate of maternal and child mortality in Middlesbrough was so high that it was frequently referred to in books on the subject as proof of the fact that the figures of maternal and child mortality were much higher in the poorer parts of every town than in the better-off parts. Though a great improvement has been made as a result of the work of a progressive town council since 1945, the figures still remain much higher than those for the rest of the country.
  The right hon. Gentleman will no doubt correct me if my figures are not strictly accurate, but I believe it is fair to say that, for the last three years, the average infant mortality in Middlesbrough was 34 per thousand, in round figures, whereas for England and Wales as a whole it was only 26. In spite of the rapid building of new houses and the transfer of population from the old slum areas to the new estates, and in spite of the work of this progressive authority in building new maternity and child welfare clinics and improving all other facilities connected with the welfare of mothers
  722
  and children, we still are at a great disadvantage compared with the rest of the country.
  The authority wants to continue this progressive work. It recently opened in a part of the town called Thorntree a new maternity and child welfare centre. The right hon. Gentleman was represented at the opening of that centre by one of his officials who expressed high approval of the project. The latest proposal that the town council has is to build a somewhat similar centre in a district called Park End, the population of which at the moment is 6,000, though it is planned to reach 10,000.
  When this project was first put forward, a letter was received from the right hon. Gentleman, dated 1st September, 1955, stating that the need for a clinic of this kind to serve that area was agreed, but not on the scale proposed. Nobody can object to that. Nobody can object to a question whether the scale of the clinic was adequate or not. The authority, far from objecting, set to work to look over its proposal again. It submitted a revised plan on 23rd April, 1956.
  For a long time no reply was received, and eventually the local authority sent an urgent reminder. On 7th June, it got a letter sent by one of the right hon. Gentleman's officials speaking in his name. I will not read the whole of the letter, but I will pick out the salient points. It said:
  "I am directed by the Minister of Health …"
  to say that:
  ".. the Minister is unable for the time being to recommend loan sanction for the building of clinics. .."
  This is shifting the issue altogether. This is not whether or not a particular clinic is too expensive or not quite suitable for the area concerned. This is the statement of a new principle, that the Minister is unable to give loan sanction for the building of clinics—presumably all clinics anywhere. This is justified by a reference that:
  "… the best use should be made of the limited financial resources available."
  In this letter, for the first time the local authority is made aware not merely of a possible criticism of the adequacy or otherwise of its proposed clinic, but of a new statement of policy that the building of clinics cannot at present be considered for loan sanction.

  723
  This surprised the local authority, and I must say that it is still very mysterious to me. As far as I know, until the last few weeks, we have had no indication of this new policy. We knew two things in this connection about the right hon. Gentleman's policy. We knew that he had accepted in principle the Guillebaud Report—
  It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Barber.]
  Mr. Marquand: We knew that the right hon. Gentleman had accepted the Guillebaud Report and that in that Report one of the most outstanding features was the endorsement by the Committee of the work of local authorities. They said in effect that the local authority part of the National Health Service was the best and ought to be encouraged and developed and, indeed, built up.
  We knew that the right hon. Gentleman praised the work of the local authorities as well as did the Guillebaud Committee. That part of the right hon. Gentleman's policy was specifically related to health. We knew also that it was the general policy of Her Majesty's Government that the sharing out of resources amongst all the different claimants upon our national resources was in future to be done in the market through the instrument of the rate of interest. That is an argument which we do not like on this side of the House, as we have often said, but we can understand it. First it is said that resources are limited, as they always are. Then it is said that the best way to deal with it is to fix a high rate of interest for raising money so that those most in need will be willing to pay it. Well, here is a situation where the local authority is willing to do that. It may not like the Government's policy, but it accepts it and decides that, despite the high rate of interest which it is necessary to pay to obtain capital, it will pay that and it will decide its own priorities.
  Can there conceivably be any higher priority in the National Health Service than the lives of mothers and babies?
  724
  I try never to talk extravagantly, but I do not think it is extravagant to say that maternity and child welfare clinics save the lives of mothers and babies. These may be saved in the hospital and home by the work of the obstetrician, but we know that education in nutrition and in the proper treatment of children preserves and saves their lives, and that the pre-natal care which the clinics give to the mothers saves their lives also. So there could be no higher priority than this in the National Health Service.
  In reply to a recent supplementary question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham (Mr. Gibson), the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary said:
  "… all Departments have had to make some contribution to the Government's policy. These schemes have not got the highest priority …"—
  In my time I have had to make many replies to supplementary questions. I know how difficult it is, and that one does not always get the opportunity to make a fully considered statement. Well, the opportunity is given to the right hon. Gentleman to say tonight whether that was a considered statement of Government policy. Is it now Government policy that the building of maternity and child welfare clinics has not got the highest priority? We would like to know.
  I would like to know also why the Minister is taking away from local authorities the right to decide priority. They have been running these services all the time, and they have a certain definitely limited share of the National Health Service to carry through. Why are they not allowed, within their own sector of the National Health Service, to determine their own priorities? They know the circumstances of their towns. They know what matters most—in Middlesbrough, Coventry, London or wherever it may be.
  One could imagine that in more wealthy towns it might be thought that some other part of the National Health Service was more important. In Bournemouth, for example, where there are lots of old people and not so many young mothers, and where there are very good housing conditions, it might be thought more important to provide a chiropody service for old people. In Middlesbrough the highest priority is still

  725
  the welfare of mothers and babies. That is what Middlesbrough says, and I claim that Middlesbrough should have the right to say it.
  In answer to a Question put by me on the same date, the Parliamentary Secretary used the word "extravagant" about the proposals of the Middlesbrough authority. She said:
  "… we had to ask the authority to look at the plans again, because if extravagant plans are approved in one area, another area loses an advantage which it might otherwise have."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd July, 1956; Vol. 555, c. 975–979.]
  Again, is that a considered opinion? Is the proposed clinic at Park End, Middlesbrough, an extravagant plan in its revised form? If it is, was the Thorntree Clinic an extravagant plan? It was the Thorntree Clinic where a representative of the right hon. Gentleman praised the work. I have seen that clinic, and it does not seem to me to be in any way extravagant. I should like to know whether it is now thought to be extravagant.
  Is it now the settled policy of the right hon. Gentleman that the building of maternity and child welfare clinics has a low priority, or is this merely the result of some absurd ruling from the Treasury that, as the hon. Lady said, all Departments have to make a contribution? Has the word gone out that Government expenditure must be reduced by a certain amount and every Department must make a contribution? What a fatuous doctrine that is if one is deciding that it is necessary to restrict expenditure which was at one time thought essential and was voted by Parliament. If one decides that it must be restricted, surely the way to do it is to determine the priorities within the expenditure and deliberately pick out those which are less important than the others and not say that all Departments have to make some contribution. Has this been a sort of blind search for some contribution from the budget of the Minister of Health? If it has, why has he picked upon maternity and child welfare centres to make the contribution?
  I have talked about policy in general terms rather than dwelling too long upon the problem arising in my constituency. I have done that because it arose in that way during question and answer in the House and because, naturally, I feel that
  726
  those who have the privilege of speaking from the Front Bench should use the right to raise matters on the Adjournment as rarely as possible and only when large and general questions are involved.
  I want to return at the end of my remarks to the case of the clinic in Middlesbrough. I want to know the right hon. Gentleman's policy. That is why I have asked these questions tonight. Apart from that altogether, is the case of the Park End Clinic now finally closed, or is the right hon. Gentleman, in view of what I have said, or in view of reconsideration of the matter since I gave notice of the subject, still willing to look at it again? Must it be put off until an indefinite date in the future when the Ministry is no longer required to make a contribution or when the lack of priority for maternity and child welfare centres as a whole has been abandoned, or is the right hon. Gentleman still prepared to look at representations which the local authority would like to make to him? In short, if a deputation came from Middlesbrough, would it be wasting its time entirely, or would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to see it and discuss with it the possibility, after all, of continuing with the plan?
  10.10 p.m.
  The Minister of Health (Mr. R. H. Turton): I am very grateful to the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand) for providing this opportunity for a statement on and discussion of the whole issue of loan sanctions and Government policy on it. That is why I have taken this opportunity to reply to one of my predecessors on what is a matter of vital importance.
  Let us get the history of this matter in perspective. On 26th October last year my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, then the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Minister of Housing and Local Government, in a circular or message, asked all local authorities to make a review of capital expenditure in view of the overload on the economy of excessive local authority capital expenditure. That was followed, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman has not really forgotten, by the statement in the House by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 17th February, when he announced the Government's policy on loan sanctions.

  727
  On that Friday, he began by saying:
  "The Government have come to the conclusion that further measures are required to deal with the overload which has put such a strain on our balance of payments."
  Later, he went on to deal with the topic of loan sanctions and said:
  "The grant of loan sanctions for other capital schemes of local authorities will have to be severely restrained, except where there are exceptional circumstances. The sanctioning Ministers will be sending out circulars to explain the new arrangements for the services with which they are concerned."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th February, 1956; Vol. 548, c. 2665–70.]
  That imposed a virtual embargo on all new capital projects and extensions of existing schemes and a shut down on all loan sanctions for a period of at least six months.
  My task has been to carry out this policy, having due regard to the priorities of the Service. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that in the debate in the House on 7th May, I stated my priorities absolutely clearly and, I thought, very definitely. The first priority was to improve unsatisfactory or inadequate hospitals, and to provide new hospitals. The second was to improve the mental and mental deficiency service. The third was to make due provision for the old.
  Translating that list of priorities into action first meant that our present hospital building programme was to continue untouched. That means that this country will be spending on hospital capital expenditure this year £4¼ million more than in 1950–51. We shall be spending £13 million this year, as opposed to £8,830,000 in 1950–51.
  Mr. A. Blenkinsop: The right hon. Gentleman must first take account of the change in value of money over the period and, secondly, take account not just of the period of one year, but of the period of greater capital expenditure, the year before 1950–51.
  Mr. Turton: I think that the hon. Member is at fault in that. In the year before 1950–51, capital expenditure was slightly less. I am not making any point of that. I want to give the House a comparison between the two. The year 1950–51 was a fair year to take, because it was one when economic conditions were getting rather difficult, as they are at the
  728
  present time. At all events, our hospital programme is going forward untouched, both for mental and general hospitals.
  Secondly, because of my second priority, for mental deficiency, all applications for loan sanction for occupation centres are being accepted where need is established. That means that 20 occupation centres will be constructed in this year, at a cost of £274,000. Thirdly, loan sanction is being granted in respect of Part III hostels for the old, where the need is most urgent. More than 60 schemes will be in progress this year, and the total expenditure will amount to £2½ million.
  Mr. Blenkinsop: Does the Minister suggest that the case which he knows so well, and which I have discussed with him so often—the Newcastle case—is not urgent from the point of view of the old people's welfare?
  Mr. Turton: I have said that we have granted loan sanction where the need is most urgent. At the present time, work is in progress on 60 hostels, at a cost of £2½ million. We have made these exceptions from the broad rule with regard to loan sanction which was contained in the 17th February announcement. We must face the fact that the grant of loan sanction both for ante-natal clinics and for ambulance stations is not exempted from the general policy announced by the Chancellor on 17th February.
  The only thing about the right hon. Gentleman's speech which surprised me was the fact that he was unaware of this. It was quite clearly stated by the Chancellor, and I sent out a circular on 17th February to all local authorities, announcing this policy and pointing out the exemptions, and saying that owing to the overload of local authority expenditure at present no new loan sanctions for these clinics could be issued for a period of six months. That does not mean that no local authority maternity and child welfare clinics are being constructed this year. Far from it. There will be 19 clinics under construction, of a total value of £269,000.
  That, again, is a greater expenditure upon maternity and child welfare clinics than occurred in 1950–51. Although it is quite true that the expenditure is smaller than last year—and it must be remembered that last year's expenditure amounted to £505,000—it is greater than the 1954 figure.
  Mr. Marquand rose—
  Mr. Turton: I think that I am going to answer the right hon. Gentleman's question, but if I do not I will give way to him. The question is—what will happen after this period of six months? The position will then be reviewed, although I cannot make a statement tonight as to what the result may be. As we have stated in the circular, a standstill order in regard to loan sanctions has been applied because of the overloading on the economy, and the position will be reviewed after six months.
  Meanwhile, the whole question of the future rôle of maternity and child welfare clinics is under review by the Cranbrook Committee, as a result of the recommendations made in the Guillebaud Report. I want to refer to that Report, because it referred to a certain confusion existing in the organisation of the maternity and child welfare services. As stated in the Report, there is no doubt about the value and importance of clinics as part of our maternity services. That is made clear in paragraph 638 (3). But, as the Committee pointed out, it is a matter for concern and inquiry that the number of women attending local authority clinics has fallen.
  I hope that in this period we shall gain not only from the Cranbrook Committee's inquiry but also from the consultations which I have initiated into the incidence of toxaemia in pregnancy. Meanwhile, we can look with satisfaction at the great improvement in infant mortality, where we have a new low record of 24·9 per thousand births over the year. I do not quarrel with the figures given by the right hon. Gentleman. I know Middlesbrough has an unhappy record, but I think that all over the country, including Middlesbrough, the position is being improved. There is a new neo-natal mortality low record of 17·3 per thousand births. I hope that the Report of the Cranbrook Committee and my consultations about toxaemia in pregnancy will help and inform us about how we may make even greater progress.
  Mr. Marquand: May I now make the intervention which I wished to make earlier? The right hon. Gentleman was making a comparison with earlier years. The point is that during those earlier years, and since, large numbers of houses
  730
  were being built on the new housing estates. Often it is only at this point, after a substantial number of houses have been built and great populations which will need the services of the clinics created, that the appropriateness of building the clinics arises. That is why in past years the number of clinics built may not have been so great. Surely, the argument of the Minister, that the number of women using clinics may be declining, is due to the fact that they have moved out to the new housing estates where there are no clinics available; and they cannot push their prams for long distances back into the town to use the clinics there.
  Mr. Turton: That is a good reason why it would be helpful to learn what the Cranbrook Committee has to say. It may be that expectant mothers are making greater use of the doctors' surgeries, or are going to the hospitals. That is one of the things which I wish to find out. We are still going ahead with a substantial programme of construction of these clinics, although at the moment there is a standstill order for six months on the approval of loan sanctions.
  Now I come to the problem at Middlesbrough. Having dealt with the general policy I wish to examine the problem at Park End. There are 10 clinics in Middlesbrough serving a population of 140,000. The Middlesbrough Council deserves great credit for that. The position there is well up to the average throughout the country, and a clinics was opened as recently as last year. A clinic at Park End was proposed at a cost of £21,000 to serve an eventual population of 10,000. But that estate is not completed. At present there is a population of only 6,000, and the facilities of the clinic will not be needed fully until the estate is completed.
  The estimated cost is still above the average throughout the whole country. In fact, it is higher than the estimates for any similar maternity and child welfare clinic at present under construction anywhere in England and Wales. Therefore, I took the view, and my Ministry so informed the Middlesbrough Council, that the estimate should be reduced. We believe that the figure should be about the average of that for the clinics in the rest of the country, which would make it

  731
  about £15,000. I hope that in the interval provided by this temporary ban on loan sanctions, the council will reconsider its estimate. I feel sure that the right hon. Gentleman would not claim that Middlesbrough should be able to build a more expensive clinic than any of the others.
  I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that if the council can put forward a scheme for a clinic at the average cost, its scheme will receive due consideration when this standstill order ends. I know that the Middlesbrough Council has a very high standard. I am certain that it can reduce the cost of the clinic satisfactorily when the standstill order ends.
  Mr. Marquand: Bearing in mind, of course, that this is a new housing estate and that the clinic must conform with the
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  amenities, etc. It cannot be as it would be if it were built in an old part of the town. We have to have regard to the amenities on a new housing estate, and that may raise the cost a little.
  Mr. Turton: I have the list here; some of the clinics are related to new housing estates and some are not. The present estimate was submitted during the period of the standstill order and was a great deal higher than any of the other estimates which have been approved and are going forward. Therefore, I hope it will be duly reconsidered and later resubmitted when the standstill order is over.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-six minutes past Ten o'clock.

TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Anglo-German Trade (Motor Vehicles)
  Anglo-German Trade (Motor Vehicles)
  Balance of Payments (Import Restrictions)
  Balance of Payments (Import Restrictions)
  American Cars
  American Cars
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Motor Car Industry (Investment)
  Motor Car Industry (Investment)
  Nationalised Industries (Advisory Councils)
  Nationalised Industries (Advisory Councils)
  Costs and Prices (Stability)
  Costs and Prices (Stability)
  Battersea Park (Amusement Tower)
  Battersea Park (Amusement Tower)
  Rifle Clubs (Certificates)
  Rifle Clubs (Certificates)
EMPLOYMENT
  British Motor Corporation (Dismissed Workers)
  British Motor Corporation (Dismissed Workers)
  Health Surveys (Foundries)
  Health Surveys (Foundries)
  Washwood Heath Exchange
  Washwood Heath Exchange
  Departmental Staff (Economies)
  Departmental Staff (Economies)
  Factory Inspectorate (White Paper)
  Factory Inspectorate (White Paper)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Aliens (Residence Permits)
  Aliens (Residence Permits)
  Police Pay (Legislation)
  Police Pay (Legislation)
  Messina Brothers' Trial, Tournai (Transcript)
  Messina Brothers' Trial, Tournai (Transcript)
  Visa (Mrs. Bobak)
  Visa (Mrs. Bobak)
  St. George's School, Formby (Paul Monaghan)
  St. George's School, Formby (Paul Monaghan)
EDUCATION
  Teachers
  Teachers
  School Building Programme
  School Building Programme
  Cornwall
  Cornwall
  Technical Students
  Technical Students
  Schools Meals (Meat Contracts)
  Schools Meals (Meat Contracts)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Hospital Pharmacists
  Hospital Pharmacists
  COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' CONFERENCE (CYPRUS)
  COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' CONFERENCE (CYPRUS)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Business Applicants (Information)
  Business Applicants (Information)
Preamble
The House met at two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
The Duke of Portland—Took the Oath.

DELIVERIES OF R.A.F. AIRCRAFT
2.5 p.m.
VISCOUNT THURSO: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government if they will state when the first Vulcan squadron will be formed and whether the deliveries of Vulcans, Victors and Valiants respectively are up to schedule.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (THE EARL OF GOSFORD): My Lords, the Vulcan has now been released for Royal Air Force service. The first few of them will soon be in use for conversion training and we expect the aircraft to enter squadron service this year. From the present early stages of the production programme, deliveries of the Vulcan should build up to a satisfactory rate before the end of the year. The planned date for release of the Victor and for its delivery to the R.A.F. has not yet been reached. Deliveries of the Valiant are being made according to plan.
VISCOUNT THURSO: My Lords, will the noble Earl assure us that Her Majesty's Government are taking all steps to accelerate production of these important aircraft—such steps as the relaxation of credit facilities to enable the firms to obtain the tools and equipment which they require, and the cutting back of orders for less important aircraft, so as to release resources of technical staff, skilled labour and production space for the production of these aircraft which are of such immense and decisive importance for British air power and for making the deterrent of which we talk a reality?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I think I can assure the noble Viscount that all steps are being taken so that these most important aircraft come into service in the Royal Air Force at the earliest possible moment.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, if a Question is put down in, say, three months from now, would the Minister be able to give an assurance that the programme of work is such that the schedules of deliveries are likely to be kept to?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I think die noble Lord is asking me something which is beyond my province to answer. I am not a crystal-gazer. But, all going well, I would hope to be able to give the noble Lord a satisfactory Answer.

THE TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT REQUIREMENTS COMMITTEE
VISCOUNT THURSO: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
[To ask tier Majesty's Government whether their undertaking given in this House on the 1st February to consider whether the Transport Aircraft Requirements Committee should be stepped up to a higher level has had a result; and whether there exists any Committee which is responsible for reviewing the whole field of military and civil aircraft development and production, and for making recommendations for the most efficient use of our national resources for these purposes.]
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (THE EARL OF SELKIRK): My Lords, the suggestion was made in this House on 1st February by Lord Brabazon of Tara that a Committee should be set up, presided over by a Cabinet Minister and including a prominent member of the Opposition and an experienced civilian, to oversee the procurement of large transport aircraft and to reconcile the various requirements before orders are placed. This suggestion has, of course, been very carefully considered. The decision to order a particular type of aircraft is the responsibility of the Airways Corporations and the

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Minister concerned, and this responsibility could not be shared with the Committee. Its duties would therefore be restricted to an advisory function, and for this purpose we believe that the Transport Aircraft Requirements Committee can give the best advice that is available. Indeed, the structure of the Committee is designed to ensure that advice can be drawn from all sources best qualified to give it.
As regards the second part of the Question, which deals with a much wider field of military and civil aircraft, the task of keeping this matter under review is directly the responsibility of my right honourable friend the Minister of Supply. Indeed, the terms of the Question constitute almost a definition of his responsibilities in the aircraft field.
VISCOUNT THURSO: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for the Answer he has given, and I imagine that the assurance given to me by the noble Earl, Lord Gosford, in answer to my first Question, will apply to the general field as well—both civil and military.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, the answer is, Yes.

REORGANISATION COMMISSION FOR PIGS AND BACON
LORD AMHERST OF HACKNEY: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when the Report of the Reorganisation Commission for Pigs and Bacon is likely to be published.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL ST. ALDWYN): My Lords, The Report of the Reorganisation Commission for Pigs and Bacon is being published to-day as a Command Paper. My right honourable friends the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Secretary of State for Scotland would like me to say how grateful they are to the Chairman, Dr. Bosanquet, and the other members of the Commission for the time and thought that they have devoted to these difficult problems. The recommend
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dations of the Commission will be considered together with those made by the Howitt Committee on the development of pig production. They will need to be discussed with the interests concerned before any announcement can be made about the Government's future policy on pig production and marketing.
LORD AMHERST OF HACKNEY: While thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I ask him whether he can confirm that this Report deals with all types of pigs, including both pork and bacon pigs?
EARL ST. ALDWYN: Yes, my Lords, it certainly deals with all pigs, and not, as has been suggested, with bacon pigs only.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932
2.14 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (LORD MANCROFT): My Lords, the three Motions standing in my name are all in the usual form and of the usual content. There is nothing in them to which I need draw your Lordships' attention. I beg to move the first Motion.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Haverfordwest, be approved.—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD MANCROFT: I beg to move.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Bradfield, be approved.—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
LORD MANCROFT: I beg to move.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, for extending section one of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Gloucester, be approved.—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RESTRICTIVE TRADE PRACTICES BILL
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD TERRINGTON in the Chair]
Clause 24:
Individual enforcement by legal proceedings of conditions as to resale price;;
24.—(1) Where goods are sold by a supplier subject to a condition as to the price at which those goods may be resold, either generally or by or to a specified class or person, that condition may, subject to the provisions of this section, be enforced by the supplier against any person not party to the sale who subsequently acquires the goods with notice of the condition as if he had been party thereto.
(2) A condition shall not be enforceable by virtue of this section—

(a) in respect of the resale of arty goods by a person who acquires those goods otherwise than for the purpose of resale in the course of business or by any person who acquires them, whether immediately or not, from such a person;

(b) in respect of the resale of any goods pursuant to an order of any court, or by way of execution or distress, or by any person who acquires them, whether immediately or not, after such resale.

(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed as enabling any person to enforce a condition imposed in pursuance of any restriction which is declared by art order of the Restrictive Practices Court for the time being in force under Part I of this Act to be contrary to the public interest.
(4) If in any proceedings it is proved that goods sold by the plaintiff have been resold by the defendant in breach of a condition which is enforceable against him by virtue of this section, the court may, if it thinks fit, grant an injunction restraining the defendant from reselling in breach of any such condition any goods already sold or thereafter to be sold by the plaintiff, whether of the same description as the goods proved to have been resold as aforesaid or of any other description.
2.18 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH moved, in subsection (1), after the first word "the" to insert "maximum". The noble Lord said: We now come to the clause which many of us think is by far the most important in the content of the Bill. Indeed, it is the one clause which affects vitally the economic lives of the mass of the people of this country—the
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general consumers. It deals with the individual enforcement of resale price maintenance, and resale price maintenance is practically confined to those consumer goods which are distributed to the common consumers of this country. You cannot have an individual price maintenance scheme for battleships or steam engines but you can for the necessities of life. We feel that this clause is important because in it, in our view, the Government violate the fundamental principle upon which this Bill is based, and that is the breaking down of the rigidity of the pattern of commodity distribution in this country which has been encrusted over the years with various restrictive practices. The Government made a gesture in the previous clause and did away with the collective boycott. But in our view they have now returned and set up a far worse condition—one that will make discrimination more than ever a potent force and which will operate to the detriment of the one principle which every Government spokesman has repeatedly underlined: to allow efficiency of distribution to find its way into the cost of consumer goods.
What are the Government doing through the whole of this clause? The clause violates the principle which has been repeatedly stated by the Lloyd-Jacobs Committee as well as the Monopolies Commission, that nothing should impede the ability of the retailer to test out better, more efficient and cheaper methods of distribution of goods. It gives the individual supplier the power to say that that shall not be done. We say that that is wrong. The Government have doubled back on their tracks. What I think has influenced the Government and the Lloyd-Jacobs Committee—in my view, wrongly—in recommending that the manufacturer should be able to price maintain his own goods, is the "loss-leader." May I explain to those noble Lords who are not acquainted with the "loss-leader" that it is an article which is sold at a loss to attract custom for other articles of trade. That is about the most simple explanation I can give. The best "loss-leader" I have ever come across was a hot cross bun. Stores used to give twelve hot cross buns away during the week before Easter for every half-crown spent in the store. I challenge anybody to tell me a branded article displayed as a "loss-leader" that has

1003
affected to any degree the sales of the overall manufacture of that article.
Look at the result of all this. It is going to lead to the negation of everything the Government want. It will prevent the efficient distribution unit from passing on the result of its efficiency to the general public. It will inflate prices, as price maintenance must always do, because any margin that is fixed between the cost of production and the price to the consumer must always be fixed so as to give a profitable margin to the least efficient unit. When you prevent the most efficient unit, which generally has no desire to go in for price-cutting or anything like that, from being able to pass on the results of its efficiency, you nullify all you have done in this Bill to unlock the rigid pattern which retail distribution has been forced to assume.
The second principle which the Government have nullified is equity in distribution. They are regarding production as the only thing that matters and have lost sight of distribution. They take the view that prices and the efficiency with which prices are maintained are the concern solely of the manufacturer. I want to make a personal appeal to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, because he is a just man, and in his capacity as head of the Judiciary I am certain that he does not wish to connive at the system contained in this clause, which lacks equity. In simple language, this is what it is. The producer of an article can bind every retail outlet to the price it should charge for the article. In other words, the price will run with the goods. But there is nothing here to make the producer of the goods conform to the same principle. The producer can fix the price and take into court any retailer or distributor who does not honour that price, but he is given a free hand to sell the same article at any price he likes and to compete without let or hindrance with every retail outlet. Is that equity?
We have seen the pattern of retail distribution change over the years. To-day we do not know who owns the retail outlets for the majority of articles. There are plenty of cases where the producer of an article is the owner of 50, 60 or 80 per cent. of the retail outlets. You cannot judge the shop by the name over
1004
the top of it. Is it likely that the producer is going to take into court his own retail outlet for a breach of his own agreement? So what is going to happen is that the only victim of this system will be the independent small and medium-sized shopkeeper. Is that what the Government want? What redress has the shopkeeper? This system of supposed individual price maintenance can be used for the most vicious of practices—that is, the strangling of independent competition against the big combines. That is how the big combines were built up, by forcing uneconomic circumstances on the people they wanted to buy out. Do the Government want that? What equity is there here? Are the Government going to set up a vicious system that will stifle all individual enterprise if against that of the big monopolies? If the Government want to widen the sphere of competition, I suggest that they widen it in a field that is fair and not expect fairness when the hands of the retail outlets are tied behind their backs by having to withstand the price-cutting competition of their own suppliers. That is what will happen under this clause.
There is one way of getting what I think the Government want, and that is by the adoption of this Amendment. It does not take us all the way, but it does take us this far: that if we allow price enforcement of only maximum prices it protects the public from exploitation. If we do not allow the fixation of minimum price, we open the door for that which every Committee that has sat upon this problem has advocated—that is, the experiment that must go on in this country to lower prices by more efficient methods. But the Government by this clause have ruled that out. Self-service, larger turnovers and smaller returns, all these things are eliminated by this clause, not at the instigation of any national policy, but at the instigation of individual producers.
My final word is this. The noble Lord, Lord Jessel, made last night, as I thought, an admirable but despairing effort to put some equity into this matter. I hope the noble Lord did not mind my throwing cold water upon it. The only reason I did so was because I could not see how it would work. The noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, drew attention to this great problem on Second Reading. Are the

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Government going to institute one of the most vicious systems that can be imagined by allowing, as has been proved in the past on all too many occasions, efficient distribution to suffer the competition and the growing power of the big combine, which not only manufactures but distributes as well? It will be a sad day for this country when we fail to see some independent names over the shop-fronts of the shops in the country; and this is the right way to obliterate them.
I want to make an appeal to the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor. I want him to take this clause back and have another look at it, and to have consultations with those of us who feel strongly about this matter. I think some strong speeches will be made from this side of the House upon this discrimination, which the Bill purports to stop but which, when you get to this clause, it perpetuates and increases. I want the noble and learned Viscount to take it back and look at it, so that, instead of fighting across the Floor of this Committee, we can come to some sensible arrangement which will do what I believe the Government want to do. Why they have been sidetracked into this alley, I cannot understand. Those are my two vital criticisms: that the whole concept of the Government's policy has been thrown overboard; and that this sets up a position in distribution in this country where the last vestige of equity has gone. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 5, after ("the") insert ("maximum").—(Lord Lucas of Chilworth.)
2.35 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, as I think he will agree, has gone slightly beyond the Amendment which he is moving and has dealt with the whole principle of this clause. Therefore, he will not take it amiss if, with your Lordships' approval, I follow him into the wider field. The Government view of this part of the problem is that the prohibition of collective enforcement of resale price maintenance and the strengthening of the individual manufacturer's powers of enforcement present a balanced approach to the problem of resale price maintenance. I have read debates in another
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place in which there has been long and continual controversy as to how far the Reports—and I refer especially to the Lloyd-Jacob Report—condemn retail price maintenance, as such, and I am not going into that problem to-day.
I want your Lordships to consider this balance which we are now putting before the Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has attacked it on two grounds. First, that it interferes with the efficient organisation of the distributive trades; and secondly, that it is inequitable. I should like to follow the noble Lord on those lines. Why should it make distribution less efficient to strengthen the powers of individual manufacturers in this respect? One must lock at it from the point of view of the manufacturers, as well as of the other people concerned. Their claim is, first, that they can embark with greater assurance on mass production and on sales programmes; and secondly, that they can build up proper servicing Facilities if they know that a reasonably stable distributive system is available to deal with their products. Despite what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has said, I am quite unable to see why it is unreasonable to provide manufacturers with some protection against the disruption and distribution which "loss-leading" may cause.
Now I turn to the question of equity. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has appealed to my sense of justice, and I should never answer that with a debating point. From the point of view of equity, and of the old Latin phrase, if I may translate it, of what is fair and good, this clause affects only the retailer who takes the goods with notice of the conditions.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: Hear, Hear!
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I welcome the support from the noble Viscount which his applause gives me. If a retailer takes the goods with knowledge of the conditions, then he has exercised his choice; he has decided to take the goods and he knows of the conditions. He could have refused to take the goods. I do not know why the Party opposite should be so anxious to support someone who takes the goods on one basis with the intention of selling them on an entirely contrary one.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: We have never said that.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That is what is implicit in the attack on this clause.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It is exactly so, and it is the answer to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, on equity. The noble Viscount will have to develop another approach to this matter, because that was implicit in the approach which the noble Lord has just put so eloquently before the Committee. That is the point. Why is it equitable to protect someone who has chosen, as I say, to take the goods with knowledge of the conditions? I do not think noble Lords opposite have appreciated this point.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The point I made was that all these goods are sold under an agreement. The producer of the article binds the seller to the price at which he will sell, but the producer, who can compete with the person he has bound, does not bind himself. Therefore, he ties the seller's hands behind his back. The man has signed an agreement and he does not want to perjure himself by breaking it. He has to stand by and see the competition of his own supplier, because there is not a mutual binding on the supplier as there is on the retailer.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: With great respect, the noble Lord has got it—I will not say entirely wrong, because I have too much respect for his view—but entirely differently from my understanding. Let us take it in two stages. The manufacturer makes an agreement with his wholesaler; it may be in the form that the retail price, the end price, will, say, be 5s., subject to a discount of 5 per cent. But the first agreement exists between the manufacturer and his wholesaler. That is an enforceable agreement at the moment, and nothing that anyone has suggested, as I understand the Amendments, will affect that agreement. After what came from the Benches opposite on the sanctity of agreements a fortnight ago, I cannot think anyone would suggest that that agreement should be interfered with.
So we get to the wholesaler. At the moment, the point is that the wholesaler
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has taken it on my hypothesis; he has bought the goods on the basis that there will be an end price of so much. The retailer to whom he sells knows that that is the condition on which the goods have been sold, and that is the basis of my argument. Unless he knows the conditions, these provisions do not affect him at all. The point which we have to decide is whether it is right and good, whether it is equitable, that someone who takes goods with that knowledge should be allowed to break the condition with impunity—so far as the person who has imposed the condition is concerned.
Noble Lords opposite may say that another method would give them better distribution. I argued that point. But I do not think that they can say that it would be equitable. It is one of the first basic things, that equity always means that the person who appeals to equity must come with clean hands and not take advantage of his own wrong. This case rests on the hypothesis that a man has knowledge of the conditions, and is going to break them. That is the first point. It might be said, and it might be implicit in the noble Lord's argument, that he may be put in a difficulty because he could not get supplies from anywhere else. That is one possibility. Now there are two answers to that. Of course, as soon as two manufacturers are involved and if, either explicitly or implicitly, they are working together, then you get a registrable agreement under subsection (3) of Clause 6—the noble Lord will be aware that we discussed that subsection yesterday. It does not need what we call a "cocked hat agreement," but the two acting together may put them in danger of all the matters that I mentioned yesterday about the sanctions of registration.
The noble Lord might put to me—and I am trying to answer the point broadly—that there might be a monopolist who applies the conditions. If that is what the fear is, of course the old Act will still apply, as I said, to scale monopolies. May I remind noble Lords that the figure referred to in the Act of 1948 applies to a substantial part of the United Kingdom; and if my memory is right, it has been applied to a substantial part of my native land, Scotland. That is important, because it shows that the basis of the Act for which both noble Lords were responsible—it was their Government who

1009
brought it in—is one which goes a great way in that it affects any scale monopolist, not only in the country as a whole, but in a part of it. That is the answer that Her Majesty's Government seek to the suggestion, which I took as implicit in the laughter of the noble Viscount, that there might be compulsion in the matter.
I am anxiously looking forward to the answer of the noble Viscount on this question of equity, and I hope that he will show us not only his general point but, as I said, how he applies his weighty words about sanctity of contract to those who bought houses in bombed areas about which we heard from his colleagues a fortnight ago. I regard this as a simple matter of someone who knows very well the conditions on which he takes the goods then breaks them.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, asked me how I squared this with my general views, which I think he does me the honour of believing I hold sincerely. On this part of the Bill I took the problem as a double one of giving some measure of stability in distribution from the manufacturers' point of view for the reasons that I mentioned, without causing stagnation or denying the public the benefits of new or cheaper methods. The abolition of collective enforcement, and the rigidities and inflexibilities which went with it, are admittedly a big step. The noble Lord will appreciate that this clause is limited, as it stands, to one supplier. He cannot act on behalf of other suppliers, and it can affect only the people who take from him. Therefore, I do not see that that is going to cause the rigidity and inflexibility which is feared. We have got rid of the collective enforcement, which was bad for reasons that I need not go into now, and I believe that we have struck the happy medium. The way of the person who pursues the happy medium is never happy; it is only the medium that is happy and not the person who pursues it. But that rather fortifies me in the rightness of our attitude and causes me no doubt.
2.50 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: It has always been the case that if you try to face both ways at once you find it very difficult. That is what the Government seem to have been forced to do: to gamble as to who would be most
1010
likely to be most pleased by their action. That is facing both ways.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Or, to put it another way, moderation in all things, so long as it is not carried to excess.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: That is why, I suppose, this new form of constitutional law for enforcement is put in this Bill. That is a most extraordinary interpretation of "moderation". I say, briefly, that I have been trying all through yesterday to assist the Government, to make progress with the Bill. It is getting very late, but I must answer the noble and learned Viscount in regard to what he says on equity. We from this side in regard to these matters have never desired to interfere with the sanctity of contract. We are perfectly well aware that the purchaser of goods who is subject to a price maintenance agreement knows the conditions if he takes the goods and, if so, he ought to observe them. But we say that the price maintenance agreement should never be made—that is where we differ—because it is discriminating against those who trade upon a different basis from that on which the producer desires to trade. That is the whole point.
There is no reason, when you have calculated your costs, labour, overheads, et cetera, and the margin of service you require for all other purposes, why you should not fix a maximum price and then permit those people who are efficient to sell to the benefit of the consumer, having satisfied all the demands that the manufacturer can make in regard to the financial side. That is our case. I hope we can divide upon it straight away.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I respectfully agree that we can divide upon it straight away. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, knows that I am always anxious to have consultation as far as possible. I agree that noble Lords opposite have been most helpful and reasonable in the Bill, but here we come to a point of conflict, and I respectfully agree that it can be resolved only in the Division Lobby.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided:—
Contents, 21; Not-Contents, 62.

CONTENTS

Jowitt, E.

Burden, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Listowel, E.

Grantchester, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Greenhill, L.

Rea, L.

Henderson, L.

Silkin, L.

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Kenswood, L.

Sinha, L.

Stansgate, V.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Williams, L.

Thurso, V.

Mathers, L. [Teller.]

Wilmot of Selmeston, L

Winster, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Munster, E.

Congleton, L.

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Croft, L.

Salisbury, M. (L. President.)

St. Aldwyn, E.

Digby, L.

Selkirk, E.

Dovercourt, L.

Buccleuch and Queensberry, D.

Winterton, E.

Ebbisham, L.

Portland, D.

Ennisdale, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Colville of Culross, V.

Glentanar, L.

Cholmondeley, M.

Goschen, V.

Gridley, L.

Lothian, M.

Portman, V.

Hacking, L.

Reading, M.

Stonehaven, V.

Hawke, L.

Willingdon, M.

Jessel, L.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Leconfield, L.

Albemarle, E.

Baillieu, L.

Lloyd, L.

Beauchamp, E.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Mancroft, L.

Bessborough, E.

Barnby, L.

McCorquodale of Newton, L

Buckinghamshire, E.

Bennett of Edgbaston, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Coventry, E.

Birdwood, L.

Saltoun, L.

Elgin and Kincardine, E.

Brassey of Apethorpe, L.

Sandford, L.

Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

Broughshane, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Gosford, E.

Chesham, L.

Teynham, L.

Home, E.

Coleraine, L.

Westwood, L.

Howe, E.

Conesford, L.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
3.1 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: I want to move this Amendment quite shortly—it is connected with the following Amendment. What we are arguing in these Amendments is this. Clause 24 gives powers for enforcing these restrictive practices, and the purpose of the Amendment is to prevent discrimination by suppliers against any particular person or class of persons and, from our point of view especially, the co-operative societies. We shall have to argue this point mainly upon Amendment No. 54 but, as I have been asked to move this Amendment, I do so formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 6, leave out ("either").—(Viscount Alexander of Hillsborough.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Accepting the spirit of the way the noble Viscount has dealt with this Amendment, may I deal with it shortly and reserve the main points to when we come to Amendment No. 54. I think the first difficulty is that the Amendments would probably not, in practice, affect the ability of individual
1012
manufacturers to prescribe resale prices for particular classes of trader and to enforce such resale prices against dealers with notice of the condition, but Clause 24 is drafted so as to make it quite clear that it is not intended to interfere with the common practice of establishing separate resale prices appropriate to, say, the wholesale and retail levels. It must be remembered, however, that the implementation of any decision by a manufacturer not to supply a particular class of trader, or to supply only on certain adverse terms, would usually be done by the manufacturer himself or by his main wholesalers. It is unlikely that retailers would play an important part.
In so far as a manufacturer's agreements with main dealers or wholesalers are concerned, such agreements are not affected by Clause 24 because they would constitute a direct contract between the manufacturer and a wholesaler. If such contract provides that the wholesaler is not to supply, say, co-operative societies, except under certain (it may be adverse) conditions, the manufacturer could, as the law stands now, sue the wholesaler. Clause 24 does not affect the position in any way, for it is irrelevant to direct contracts. Clause 24 relates to the bringing

1013
of proceedings against retailers not in direct contract with the manufacturer. Therefore, I think there are objections to these Amendments. Perhaps the noble Viscount will consider them. I have put them as shortly as I can, but I wanted him to have what was in my mind.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
3.6 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH moved, after subsection (3) to insert:
"(4) The granting by a society registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts, 1893 to 1954 of any discount, rebate or dividend to its members payable at Intervals of not less than a quarter of a year in respect of amounts paid or payable by or to them on account of their transactions with the society shall not be treated as a breach of a condition as to the price at which any goods acquired by the society may be resold; and no proceedings under this section shall be taken by a supplier of goods against such a society solely on the grounds that the granting of discount, rebate or dividend by the society in the circumstances hereinbefore mentioned is a breach of a condition as to the price at which the goods may be resold."
The noble Viscount said: I have explained, during the debate on the Report of the Monopolies Commission, on the Second Reading of the Bill, and also on some of the Amendments we have already dealt with in Committee, the basic principle which is sought to be obtained by this Amendment. This is the most important Amendment concerning those people who are suffering, in the main, from this continuous and expanding discrimination. The members of the industrial and the provident societies regard this as their most important case. The Government have decided, for what reason I have never yet been able to fathom, that, whilst taking steps against the continuance of collective price agreements, they will allow individuals to continue to exercise their restrictive practices against (a) traders and (b) consumers—because they both go together—and to alter the law in such a way that in these cases there is to be statutory authority for every individual to be able to enforce his conditions in a court of law. That seems to me to be making it quite certain that the Government do not wish to assist co-operative consumers in this country in any sense beyond the new collective agreements in order to prevent discrimination against the interests of the consumer.
The Government have had this point under consideration. They have had the case four times in the Report of the Monopolies Commission, where your Lordships will find reference to the case of the co-operative societies. There are 11½ million members of the Co-operative Movement in this country and the Government have taken a deliberate decision not to adopt the Majority Report of the Monopolies Commission, and to set up a new statutory basis for the enforcement of these discriminations in a court of law. Let it be clearly understood that that is the case we are putting against the Bill. I do not think that in all my experience—apart, perhaps, from the rather extraordinary way in which the late Mr. Neville Chamberlain set up the Norman Raeburn Committee on Taxation—I have ever heard of such a deliberate act as this against the consumer. And when the matter is raised in another place, what is the main answer of the President of the Board of Trade? His answer is, "We are not making any change." Yet the Government are, in fact, giving the power to enforce in a court of law the discrimination that we now complain of. I think that is treating this matter in a way which is an insult to the 11½ million organised consumers in the Co-operative Movement. That is the way the Government treat their case.
I am going to say right away that if it works satisfactorily, and is not affected by steps taken by manufacturers or discriminators to escape the effects of Part I of the Bill, then the decision on collective agreements should be beneficial. But from what has been said already in this debate we have seen that all kinds of attempts will be made to escape the consequences of Part I of the Bill by arranging for individual process to be instituted. With that individual process instituted on separate commodities and things of that kind, and even without a firm agreement—merely by passing information—there will be all the dire consequences to the co-operative consumers that I have been complaining about for so long.
It may be said that I am exaggerating what is likely to happen. There is on the Marshalled List an Amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Dovercourt, which sets down exactly what I have been fearing would happen. I have said that

1015
agreements would be put into force which would not be by way of a document; it is often done by passing information. Lord Dovercourt's Amendment proposes that such agreements shall be exempted from the effects of this clause. I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Dover-court, personally. I have known him a great many years and liked him, both in another place and here, but he is one of the most important representatives of the kinds of manufacture which are included in the longest-standing discriminators—that is the Proprietary Articles Traders' Association. Here is all that I have feared on behalf of my Movement put on the Paper by the noble Lord, Lord Dovercourt.
Are the Government going to accept that Amendment? We should like to have an answer upon that. Certainly it seems to me to be quite unreasonable, in face of all the evidence, that this widespread setting up of conditions of sale should prevent the consumer from getting the benefit of all that the retailer can do for him by organisation and by increased sales efficiency, although, when the retailer buys at the price and sells at the fixed price over the counter, he will have provided for everything a manufacturer or wholesaler can ask for.
He has met all his costs; he has met all his material; he has met all his labour; and the margin of profit he has fixed for his commodity has been met. After all that, the manufacturers have the impudence to say, "You must not ask us what we do with our profit, but we have the right to ask you what you do with your profit"—and the Government are going to allow that to be supported. That is a most amazing situation for a Government who talk about free competition, starting in 1950 with the great campaign for reducing the cost of living and for "setting the people free." In spite of that, the Government, by this Bill, are going to strengthen the means by which the individuals who are still guilty of discriminatory practices can enforce these things upon the consumer.
I could have argued much longer, but I want to meet the wishes and needs of the Committee upon this Bill in general. I know that the Committee want to adjourn from this Business at a certain specific hour, otherwise, I should have
1016
stated a much longer case. But I can say at once to the Government that you will have never done a day's work which is more likely to be harmful to yourselves in the end, when you consider the cosmopolitan nature of the membership of this great Co-operative Movement, expanding every day; and you will not escape the results of what appears to them to be, and I am certain in my own mind is, an act of great injustice. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 26, at end insert the said subsection.—(Viscount Alexander of Hillsborough.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: May I first of all say, with regard to the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Dovercourt, that I once rashly said, when asked what I was going to do with a subsequent Amendment, that it was not my intention to accept it. That provoked a debate of an hour. I would say, however, that as at present advised, and subject of course of what my noble friend says, I am not disposed to accept the Amendment. I am disposed to put to your Lordships an explanation of the various forms of agreement which I think will clarify the position. I cannot say more, because otherwise I should be discourteous to the noble Lord.
With regard to the noble Viscount's Amendment, its purpose, as I understand it, is to make it clear that a deferred dividend paid by the co-operative societies shall not be treated as infringements of resale price conditions in connection with proceedings under Clause 24. That seems to appear from the words "no proceedings under this section" which appear in the Amendment. The Amendment would not, of course, prevent an individual manufacturer from requiring by contract that no dividend shall be paid on the sales of his goods, but I want, in courtesy to the noble Viscount, to deal with the general point.
I know that it is contended by many that the co-operative dividend is no more than the distribution of profit, and that no individual manufacturer has the right to interfere with this. I admit that there is force in that argument. On the other hand, it does ignore the fact that in many respects the dividend is indistinguishable from a reduction in prices, and it may appear in that light not only to the manufacturer but also to the shopper. I would

1017
remind the noble Viscount that the Lloyd-Jacob Committee drew no clear distinction between the genuine immediate discounts and deferred dividends. Indeed, they recommended that manufacturers should not interfere with either, although the solution they proposed was not legislation but consultation. The point am making is that they grouped the two things together.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: We should be most happy, if the Government would accept the principle of my Amendment, for all those who are selling to pursue the same form of distribution of surpluses.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I rather suspected the noble Viscount would take that view. The Government recognise the sincerity of those who seek to distinguish, as many have done—I am not saying that in derogration of what the noble Viscount says now—the co-operative dividends from other dividends and discount schemes, and to distinguish all deferred dividend schemes from immediate discount schemes. But after anxious consideration the Government have decided that the right course is to leave the decision to the individual manufacturer—I repeat, individual—and not themselves to make judgments of particular discount or dividend schemes. They see no sufficient case for exempting the co-operative societies from the provisions of the Bill, and therefore they cannot accept the Amendment.
I should like to put this point. If suppliers were prohibited from preventing the co-operative societies from paying a dividend in respect of their goods, it is perhaps not certain that this would always work to the benefit of the societies. It might well be that, rather than countenance payment of dividends in respect of
their goods, individual manufacturers might prefer not to supply the societies at all. The Bill will, of course, make no difference to those suppliers who do not object to payment of dividend; there is nothing in it to discourage them from going on supplying as before. Indeed, if anything (and this is the point I wanted the noble Viscount to consider), the reverse is true, because manufacturers in particular trades tend to adopt common policies in matters of supplying the societies and, in the future, an agreed policy not to supply the co-operative societies will have to be justified before the Restrictive Practices Court. To that extent, and it is an important one, the Bill helps the co-operative societies.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: Unless any other noble Lord wishes to speak, we may as well proceed right away to a Division. If one quotes the Lloyd-Jacob Committee, there is any amount of evidence in its Report—paragraphs 96, 101, 102 and 114. Every one of them comes down in favour of our position in this Amendment. It seems to me most extraordinary that Her Majesty's Government, who are seeking—I hope quite genuinely—to reduce the cost of living, are to retain fixed in the hands of the manufacturer, the wholesaler and the retailer, a process by which those price advantages are kept from the consumer. I hope that we shall return to this point, under Parliamentary conditions better for a really good debate, on the Report stage. Out of courtesy to the Committee, and deference to engagements which noble Lords have for the rest of the day, I should like to call a Division now.
On Question, Whether the Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided:—
Contents, 23; Not-Contents, 58.

CONTENTS

Attlee, E.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Jowitt, E.

Grantchester, L.

Pethick-Lawrerice, L.

Listowel, E.

Greenhill, L.

Rea, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Henderson, L.

Silkin, L.

Kenswood, L.

Sinha, L

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Lawson, L.

Williams, L.

Stansgate, V.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

Wilmot of Selmeston, L.

Thurso, V.

Mathers, L. [Teller.]

Winster, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Coleraine, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Conesford, L.

Salisbury, M. (L. President.)

Selkirk, E.

Congleton, L.

Winterton, E.

Croft, L.

Buccleuch and Queensbury, D.

Dovercourt, L.

Portland, D.

Bridgeman, V.

Ebbisham, L.

Cilcennin, V.

Ennisdale, L.

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Colville of Culross, V.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Lothian, M.

Goschen, V.

Glentanar, L.

Reading, M.

Portman, V.

Hawke, L.

Willingdon, M.

Stonehaven, V.

Jessel, L.

Leconfield, L.

Albemarle, E.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Lloyd, L.

Bessborough, E.

Baillieu, L.

McCorquodale of Newton, L

Coventry, E.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Mancroft, L.

Elgin and Kincardine, E.

Barnby, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

Bennett of Edgbaston, L.

Rathcavan, L.

Gosford, E.

Birdwood, L.

Saltoun, L.

Haddington, E.

Brassey of Apethorpe, L.

Sandford, L.

Home, E.

Chesham, L.

Teynham, L.

Howe, E.

Clitheroe, L.

Westwood, L.

Munster, E.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

3.29 p.m.
LORD MCCORQUODALE OF NEWTON LORD MCCORQUODALE OF NEWTON moved, in subsection (4), after "resold" to insert "or offered for resale". The noble Lord said: Some of my friends in industry have asked me whether I would put this Amendment forward for clarification purposes and in the hope that the Minister would be able to accept it. Its object is to permit the Court to grant an injunction to restrain a threatened breach of condition, and not merely future breaches where an actual breach has already occurred. In the majority of cases a plaintiff cannot obtain an injunction unless he can prove that the goods have already been sold in breach of his condition. He can do so only by means of a test purchase, and in fact he will have to send round a "snooper" to see whether the goods are being sold properly. That is an undesirable practice. If a defendant should advertise items at a cut price the supplier, under the existing clause, would still be powerless to take action until he could prove actual sale at a cut price. Actually, I am told that the advertisement of goods for sale in breach of conditions as to prices would in many cases be far more damaging to the supplier than the actual sale at the unlawful price, because of the much wider publicity. It would seem, therefore, that it would be of great benefit to the suppliers if a threatened offer of resale in breach of conditions as to price could be made subject to High Court
1020
injunction as well as the actual sale of the goods. For that reason, I beg to move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 28, after ("resold") insert ("or offered for resale").—(Lord McCorquodale of Newton.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Government feel that there is not a very strong case for the Amendment which my noble friend has moved—for these reasons. In the first place, a dealer who intends to breach resale price conditions will presumably, in general, soon enough actually do so and thus make himself liable to legal proceedings under the clause. In such event—and the noble Lord will appreciate that this is the heavy artillery of the clause—he could be restrained by injunction from reselling any goods of the manufacturer in question in breach of such conditions. Secondly, in a case in which a dealer offers to resell goods in breach of resale price conditions, it is open to the manufacturer to apply for a quia timet injunction, on the ground that he has reason to anticipate that the dealer is about to sell in breach of the conditions. That injunction would apply only to the particular goods in question and not to all the suppliers' goods. The effect of the Amendment would be to lay dealers who offer to resell particular goods in breach of resale price conditions open to injunctions in relation to all the manufacturers' other goods. That is a very heavy steam hammer with which to crack the nut. I would ask my noble friend to consider

1021
the point. I have given my reasons, and if he feels, on consideration, that they are not good ones, perhaps he will let me know and put down his views so that I can consider them. I hope that he will not think fit to press this Amendment to-day.
LORD MCCORQUODALE OF NEWTON: In view of what the noble and learned Viscount has said, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.33 p.m.
LORD DOVERCOURT LORD DOVERCOURT moved to add to the clause:
"(5) An agreement between persons carrying on business within the United Kingdom in the production or supply of goods or in the application to goods of any process of manufacture shall not be subject to Part I of this Act solely because such an agreement provides for giving information to one of the parties to it or at his request financial or legal assistance for the purpose of enabling him to enforce such a condition as is referred to in subsection (1) of this section."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment was put down in another place by Mr. Pitman, Sir Lionel Heald, Mr. Gresham Cooke, Sir Charles Taylor, Mr. James Lindsay, and Sir Lancelot Joynson-Hicks, but on the Committee stage it was not selected by the Chairman. I am informed that it was not selected because Mr. Derek Walker-Smith, Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, had written a letter to Mr. Pitman from which the following is an extract:
"… The Government have decided that collective enforcement is to be prohibited as part of its general policy on resale price maintenance. The other Amendment"—
that is, this Amendment—
"is, we believe, unnecessary. Trade associations may be at liberty to assist manufacturers to use legal facilities for the enforcement of their resale prices, subject to the law relating to maintenance. In this connection, I might draw your attention to Martell and Others v. Consett Iron Co. Ltd., where it was held that 'persons engaged in a particular trade, or, by parity of reasoning, persons engaged in a particular profession or individually possessed of proprietary interests of a particular kind may lawfully form themselves into an association with a view to protecting at the expense of all and if necessary by litigation at the common expense the interests of each in the common field.'"
Subsequently, before the Report stage in another place, in a further letter to
1022
Mr. Pitman, dated June 14. Mr. Derek Walker-Smith wrote that if he and Sir Lionel Heald wanted
"any Parliamentary discussion on the point with a view to some spelling out of the law, it might be better achieved in the House of Lords."
I understand that Mr. Pitman and Sir Lionel Heald agreed with this. It will be realised that these personal letters are not on record in Hansard. I have therefore put down the original Amendment at the request of its sponsors, and I hope to be given Ministerial confirmation that:
"Trade Associations may be at liberty to assist manufacturers to use legal facilities for the enforcement of their resale prices, subject to the law relating to maintenance."
I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 34, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Dovercourt.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Lord has indicated the purpose of the Amendment, and, as I promised earlier, I should like to delve into the minds of the noble Lord and, no doubt, of those Members in another place whom he mentioned, on this question of agreements. I take it that the kind of assistance contemplated would be notification of the names of price-cutters to individual manufacturers, so that they can institute legal proceedings accordingly, as well as legal and financial assistance in the bringing of such proceedings. The first question is whether such agreements would be registrable. The answer is that, in general, such agreements would not be registrable, because agreements that relate to the giving of information, et cetera, do not relate to the matters dealt with in paragraphs (a) to (e) of subsection (1) of Clause 6 (for example, prices to be charged for goods, persons to be supplied with goods). To this extent, therefore, the Amendment is unnecessary, and to include it might throw doubt on the meaning of Clause 6.
Agreements of the kind in question would be registrable if the promise of assistance were conditional upon, or the amount of assistance depended upon, agreement between the suppliers to maintain their resale prices. This is because subsection (4) of Clause 6 makes registrable agreements which
"confer privileges or benefits only upon such parties as comply with conditions"

1023
as to matters specified in paragraphs (a) to (e) of subsection (1) of Clause 6. The Government's view is that such agreements should not be exempted from liability to registration. They are in the same category as agreements between suppliers to the effect that they will prescribe resale prices for their products. As I have indicated, I cannot accept the Amendment, and I hope that from what I have said it will be clear that trade associations will be able to assist individual manufacturers to enforce their resale price conditions without incurring any liability to registration under Part I of the Bill and—this is important—provided, first, that there is no undertaking, express or implied, by the manufacturers to enforce their prices, and, secondly, that such assistance is permissible under the ordinary law of maintenance. I have tried to set out quite objectively the position as I understand it. What I suggest is that noble Lords in all quarters of the Committee might do me the honour of considering what I have said and, if there is any doubt, either consult with me before Report or raise the matter on Report stage.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: So far as our Benches are concerned we should be happy to do so, but I am bound to say that the interpretation which the noble and learned Viscount gives of the position of those who give information seems to me not to be equitable with the action taken with respect to other agreements. Some of the cases I mentioned yesterday do not arise out of a formal agreement; they arise out of an implicit understanding between traders, or groups of traders, and if they give information about price-cutting they will all stand together. In effect, that is taking the position of a registrable agreement. It achieves the same result. I cannot understand why the Government have not made that completely registrable. I am glad to know that the Government are not accepting this Amendment, which obviously emanates from people who might be concerned about the possibility of their present practice being registrable. If they can substitute something like this for it, it will not be registrable.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I would be grateful if the noble Viscount considers especially what I said on subsection
1024
(4) of Clause 6, which makes registrable agreements which confer privileges or benefits only upon such parties as comply with conditions. I have tried to be entirely objective, because I thought it would be most helpful if I gave your Lordships my views without argument. I would ask my noble friend Lord Dover-court to consider the same point. I will gladly clear up any other points.
LORD DOVERCOURT: I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor for what he has said, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.45 p m
LORD GRANTCHESTER LORD GRANTCHESTER moved to leave out Clause 24. The noble Lord said: With all respect to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, we believe this clause to be unnecessary. In our view, Her Majesty's Government were right in banning collective enforcement, but we object to giving statutory authority for individual enforcement. We are concerned here as between one supplier and one purchaser. No question of duress arises. It should be a matter of principle not to intervene in contracts between a willing seller and a willing buyer, and surely it should be a matter of principle not to do by Statute what can well be done without it.
The terms of these contracts are agreed between the parties and any breaches can be dealt with under the normal procedure of the courts. A breach on either side can be dealt with, for retailers as well as manufacturers may desire to put conditions into a contract. It is true that there is no privity of contract between a supplier and a sub-purchaser, but, in any case, the purchaser has to be made aware of the conditions under which he is purchasing. The purchaser can be held responsible by a contract with his supplier for enforcing the terms of sale to any sub-purchaser. In my view, it is much better to leave this matter to the parties. There is no need for the special provisions of this clause. The Government are only complicating the issue by bringing in this matter by introducing this clause into the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 24.—(Lord Graittchester.)
LORD MANCROFT: If it were accepted, this Amendment would deny any additional enforcement facilities to individual manufacturers and would destroy the whole balance of the Government's proposals on resale price maintenance. Therefore, I am afraid that I must regard the Amendment as opposing a fundamental point of the Bill and ask leave to treat it as a wrecking Amendment. The noble Lord will probably remember Rupert Brooke's poem, with the same title as his own, which begins:
"Stands the church clock at ten to three?"
The clock does not stand at that time now, and we have business elsewhere, and I hope the noble Lord will acquit me of any discourtesy if I do not argue
Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed accordingly.
Clause 24 agreed to.
Clause 25 [Supplementary provisions]:
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth has asked me to apologise to the Committee and to say that he does not proposed at this stage to move his Amendment to leave out Clause 25, but that he will want to move it on the Report stage.
Clause 25 agreed to.
the matter again, but ask him to read the powerful arguments adduced by my noble and learned friend yesterday, to which I roust now say "Ditto". If the noble Lord is unwilling to accept his argument, I am afraid that he must carry his reluctance into the Division Lobbies.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: I am afraid that there is no alternative but to divide the Committee. I do not think that this clause is necessary and much prefer to leave the parties to rely on their own contracts.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided:—
Contents, 16; Not-contents, 46.

CONTENTS

Attlee, E.

Boyd-Orr, L.

Mathers, L.

Jowitt, E.

Burden, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Grantchester, L. [Teller.]

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Greenhill, L.

Rea, L.

Alexander of Hillsborough, V.

Henderson, L.

Sinha, L.

Lawson, L.

Williams, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Croft, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Dovercourt, L.

Buccleuch and Queensberry, D.

Selkirk, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Portland, D.

Glentanar, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Hawke, L.

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Furness, V.

Jessel, L.

Lothian, M.

Goschen, V.

Lloyd, L.

Reading, M.

Stonehaven, V.

McCorquodale of Newton, L

Willingdon, M.

Mancroft, L.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Coventry, E.

Baden-Powell, L.

Saltoun, L.

Elgin and Kincardine, E.

Bennett of Edgbaston, L.

Sandford, L.

Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

Brassey of Apethorpe, L.

Strang, L

Gosford, E.

Chesham, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Haddington, E.

Clitheroe, L.

Teynham, L.

Howe, E.

Coleraine, L.

Thurlow, L.

Munster, E.

Congleton, L.

Westwood, L.

LORD MANCROFT LORD MANCROFT moved, after Clause 25 to insert the following new clause:
Commencement of Part II
"This Part of this Act shall come into force on the expiration of the period of three months beginning with the date of the passing of this Act."
The noble Lord said: Before I speak on this Amendment, may I say a word about the procedure on the Bill? It was agreed that we should adjourn at this time, but as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has decided not to move

1027
the Amendment referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, and, I understand, the other Amendment down in his name, No. 63, we are rid of the really controversial Amendments, and it might be convenient if we were to go straight on and finish off the the Bill as quickly as we can.
This new clause is to allow manufacturers who have hitherto relied upon collective resale price maintenance a short period in which to adjust their contracts and conditions of sale to take account of the prohibition, in Clause 23, of collective enforcement and of the additional powers, in Clause 24, for individual enforcement of resale price conditions. The Government recognise that manufacturers may require a breathing space in which to make adjustments. On the assumption that the Bill becomes law at the end of July, the effect of the new clause would be to bring Part II of the Bill into operation at the end of October. As your Lordships will see from Amendments Nos. 61 and 66, we propose that the rest of the Bill, with one qualification, shall come into force immediately on enactment. This Amendment seems to be reasonable, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 25, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 26:
Reconstitution of Monopolies Commission
(6) This section shall come into force on such date as may be appointed by order made by the Board of Trade by statutory instrument.
LORD GRANTCHESTER LORD GRANTCHESTER moved to add to subsection (6):
"but not before the expiration of the period of one year beginning with the date of the passing of this Act."
The noble Lord said: No one would wish to keep the membership of any Commission unnecessarily large for the work they have to do, but surely it is not desirable to slow down their necessary work. The new procedure will take time, and this Amendment is designed to make sure that no hasty action will be taken to slow down the attack upon restriction along any part of the front. That the membership of the Commission should not be reduced for one year seems to be a reasonable precaution. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 13, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Grantchester.)
LORD MANCROFT: I think I can put the noble Lord's mind at rest on this point. The intention of the Government is to reconstitute the Commission within a short time of the passing of this Bill. The object of delaying reconstitution at all is to enable the Commission to complete certain reports which are already, as the noble Lord knows, at an advanced stage. I think that to retain the Commission in reserve would hardly be the way in which to get the new judicial procedure off to a good start. The Government, as the Bill clearly shows, have decided against an administrative procedure. To keep an administrative tribunal as a sort of long-stop to the Restrictive Practices Court would not, I think, inspire confidence in the new system set up by the Bill, and would introduce a most undesirable element of uncertainty into the whole treatment of restrictive practices. If the new procedure is not a success, then Parliament will have to reconsider the whole question. The solution is not to keep an over-staffed Commission in the background. The Government take the view that the reconstituted Commission, with a maximum number of ten members, will be adequate for the more limited but important work with which they will be concerned. I hope that that explanation satisfies the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and that he will withdraw the Amendment.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: I really put down the Amendment with the object of getting this explanation. I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 26 agreed to.
Clause 27 [Future scope of references to Monopolies Commission]:
LORD MANCROFT: This Amendment makes it clear that the Monopolies Commission, in reporting on a reference made after the commencement of this Bill as an Act, may not make a "public interest" judgment on any agreement which comes within the scope of Part I of the Bill. The purpose of this is to avoid any possibility of a conflict between the Commission and the Restrictive Practices Court. I am told that it is doubtful whether the Monopolies Act, 1948, allows

1029
the Board of Trade to frame references in such a way as to impose this limitation, and it is necessary, therefore, to make provision for it in this Bill. The Amendment does not preclude the Commission from discussing the effect of participation by a monopoly in a restrictive agreement. I think the words "as such" make this clear. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 21, at end insert ("and the Commission shall not be required in pursuance of any such reference to report whether any such agreement to which the parties concerned are party operates or may be expected to operate as such against the public interest.").—(Lord Mancroft.)
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: It is a pity that we are in a hurry to finish the Committee stage, due to other arrangements. I feel that there ought to be a debate on this Amendment, to find out just what the functions of the Monopolies Commission will be when they are reorganised. This is perhaps a necessary limitation upon the Part of the Act in regard to which they will be able to operate. Perhaps we had better come back to this matter on the Report stage. We will let it go now, and deal with it in more detail on the Report stage.
LORD MANCROFT: That is quite agreeable to me. On the Report stage I shall be happy to explain to noble Lords the duties of the Commission.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
House resumed.

CYPRUS
4.0 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALIS-BURY): My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, was good enough to ask me a Private Notice Question with regard to the question of Cyprus. I am now in a position to make a statement which is also being made in another place by my right honourable friend, the Prime Minister. It is as follows.
In order that the House may be able to form a true judgment of the situation which has been reached regarding Cyprus, it is, I think, desirable that I should remind noble Lords of the recent
1030
history of this problem. As the House will remember, in September, 1955, Her Majesty's Government held a Tripartite Conference with the Greek and Turkish Governments. The chief purpose of this conference was to discover whether a way could be found to reconcile the differences dividing the Governments concerned on the question of Cyprus. The Governments proved unable to agree at that time on a common policy. Her Majesty's Government then decided to try to make progress towards a solution by means of discussions on the island itself between the Governor of Cyprus and Archbishop Makarios. These discussions lasted several months but, for reasons which have previously been debated in this House, they broke down.
Her Majesty's Government then decided to make another approach to this most intractable question on the international level. The principle of self-determination had been accepted by Her Majesty's Government. The problem was therefore whether a solution regarding its application could be devised which would provide fully for the protection, not only of our own interests in Cyprus and the Eastern Mediterranean, but also of those of Turkey and of other countries to whom we have treaty obligations. Unfortunately, this has not yet been found possible. It has become plain that steps to create conditions which might lead to the application of self-determination for Cyprus would raise far wider issues for our Turkish allies as parties to the Lausanne Treaty settlement.
The House will readily understand the risks which would be involved if Her Majesty's Government were to attempt unilaterally to take such steps. As it has proved impossible to obtain international agreement in this matter, which so clearly contains the seeds of grave danger to the whole future of the Eastern Mediterranean, Her Majesty's Government have to accept that for the present progress by this means cannot be realised.
But certain steps can be taken within the Island itself. Her Majesty's Government therefore intend to proceed with the development of internal self-government in Cyprus. For this purpose, they have decided to ask Lord Radcliffe to start work forthwith as Constitutional Commissioner. It will be his task to consider the framework of a new liberal Constitution for Cyprus, including safeguards for

1031
the interests of all communities, and to make recommendations. He will be leaving tomorrow for a preliminary visit to Cyprus. Her Majesty's Government intend, on his return, to draw up detailed terms of reference. The new Constitution will not, however, be put into effect until terrorism has been overcome and law and order has been restored. The rate of progress in this constitutional development must, of course, depend on the extent of the co-operation of the people of Cyprus.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Marquess for making this statement which has been made in another place by the Prime Minister. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Radcliffe, is to make what is called a preliminary visit to Cyprus, and that terms of reference will not be prepared for his work as a Constitutional Commissioner until after his return. What I am immediately interested in is whom the noble Lord is going to see. What is the preliminary visit? Is it in order to have preliminary talks with the Cypriots, the Turks, or with whom, and representative of whom?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I suppose the first purpose of the visit of the noble Lord, Lord Radcliffe, is to see the Island for himself and the conditions there, without knowledge of which no settlement could possibly be arranged. He will then, of course, talk to the Governor, their official representatives, and with other representatives who are willing to talk with him. He will, in that way, get a preliminary view of the situation and the problem, in a way which he could not do without this preliminary examination of it.
LORD REA: My Lords, I welcome the statement of the noble Marquess, which I am sure is pleasing to everyone in your Lordships' House. As we are having a debate on this subject on July 25, I think it would be improper to try and go into any real detail now. We are relieved that at last the Government are sending a man of law, as they might have sent a man of diplomacy, and have not chosen to send our top soldier, whose life's work is to know about killing. I am making no reflection upon the Chiefs of the Imperial General Staff, who are able men
1032
in every way, but I think from the Cypriot's point of view the present appointment will be very welcome indeed.

RESTRICTIVE TRADE PRACTICES BILL
House again in Committee.
LORD MANCROFT: This is another machinery Amendment connected with the future of the Commission. No policy point is concerned, and I do not think there is any controversy in it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 34, leave out ("on") and insert ("at the expiration of the period of one month beginning with the date of").—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MANCROFT: This is the same sort of Amendment; it is purely machinery. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 37, at beginning insert ("The power of the Board of Trade to give directions under subsection (3) of this section in respect of a reference made before the commencement of this Act shall include power to require the Commission to proceed with the reference as if it had been made after the commencement of this Act; and").—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 28 agreed to.
Clause 29 [Provisions relating to export agreements]:
LORD MANCROFT: This is purely a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 14, leave out ("eight").—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 30 to 33 agreed to.
Clause 34 [Interpretation]:
LORD MANCROFT: This also is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 30, leave out from first ("Registrar") to end of line 30 and insert ("has the meaning assigned by section one").—(Lord Mancroft.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 35 agreed to.
Clause 36 [Short title and commencement]:
LORD MANCROFT LORD MANCROFT moved to leave out subsection (2). The noble Lord said: This last Amendment, although uncontroversial, is a matter of sonic importance. It removes the provision in the Bill that the Act shall come into force one month after the date on which it is passed. It will therefore come into force immediately on enactment, subject to the two qualifications which have been made in Amendments we have recently been discussing on Clauses 25 and 27. As a result of these Amendments, Part II of the Bill will not come into force until three months after the passing of the Act and references at present with the Monopolies Commission will not lapse until one month after the commencement of the Act.
As regards the rest of the Bill, no delay is necessary before it comes into force, because it contains no provisions to which people must adapt themselves in order to keep within the law. The Committee will note that subsection (1) of Clause 8, relating to registration of agreements, and Clause 26, relating to the reconstitution of the Monopolies Commission, come into force only under statutory instruments. I hope that the abolition of the one month's delay will mean that the first registration order can be made aid laid before Parliament rises for the Summer Recess. It is very unlikely that it will be possible for it to be confirmed by Parliament, and therefore for it to come into operation, before the Session is resumed after the Recess, but its publication well in advance of its coming into effect will, I hope, be a useful guide to industry. It will also provide jolly reading for the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, on his holidays, some part of which I am sorry to learn he may have to spend in hospital, from which we all wish him a speedy and completely successful return.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Remaining clause, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
House resumed.

BRITISH CARIBBEAN FEDERATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read. 1a, and to be printed.
GOVERNORS' PENSIONS BILL
Brought from the Commons; read, 1a, and to be printed.
PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
MILLPORT PIERS (AMENDMENT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

VALUATION AND RATING (SCOTLAND) BILL
4.12 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD STRATH CLYDE): My Lords, I rise to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill deals with variation, rating and equalisation grant. In the field of Scottish local government it is the most important Bill since 1929; in the valuation code it is the most important measure since the Act of 1854. The Bill is based largely on the recommendations of the Committee presided over by Lord Sorn, whose Report was published in September, 1954. Here I should wish to express in your Lordships' House the Government's thanks to Lord Sorn and his colleagues, among whom was the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, for the thorough and skilful way in which they dealt with the difficult and sometimes recondite matters which arose in the course of their inquiry. The Committee included members of all shades of political opinion and of varying background, but they unanimously recommended a number of fundamental changes in the Scottish system of valuation and rating.
Since the Bill was published in October last year, it has received much careful consideration both in another place and outside. I think your Lordships will agree with me that such consideration is highly appropriate for, while much of the

1035
subject matter of the Bill is highly technical, it is of great importance not only to local authorities but to every ratepayer in Scotland. As a result of the discussions which took place in another place, the original Bill has been modified in certain respects and the Government are now confident that in its present form it provides a comprehensive and improved system of valuation and rating.
In the Government's view, a good valuation and rating system should satisfy three tests. It should provide a means of raising local revenue without causing injustice as between one ratepayer and another; the valuations of comparable properties should themselves be comparable; and, rates should not be levied in such a way as to discourage the development of industry, the building of houses, or the repair of existing property. As the Sorn Committee found, the Scottish rating system does not satisfy these tests. The Bill attempts to provide a better system, and similarly it seeks to modify the present arrangements in regard to equalisation grant so as to provide fairer treatment for Scotland.
The most radical change which the Bill proposes to make in the rating system is the abolition of owners' rates. The Scottish system, under which part of the rates is paid by the owner, goes back as far as the seventeenth century, but it has become out of date with the great extension in local government services and the steep increase in their cost. The average rate levied on owners last year in Scotland was 7s. 10d. and the total sum payable by owners as a result of these rates was a little short of £22 million. Where rented property is concerned, the owner has to pay these rates out of the rent which he receives, and if the rates go up the owner will naturally seek to increase the rent which, your Lordships will recognise, is quite impossible where rent-controlled property is involved. But since, in general, every increase in the rent is rateable, the owner is caught in a vicious circle of paying rates upon rates.
Perhaps I should explain what I mean by rates upon rates. Suppose an owner, for one reason or another, wishes to increase his rent by £10 a year and that in the district where that property is
1036
situated the owners' rates are running at 10s. in the £. To obtain his £10 increase, he has to add the rate on that amount. In this instance that of course would be £5, so the rent would be increased by £15. But, as your Lordships will recognise, rates at 10s. in the £ on £15 are not £5 but £7 10s. 0d. and so he has to go on making further additions until he discovers that to recover the sum of £10 in rent he has to charge a sum of £20. Your Lordships will realise that the occupier of these premises has to pay occupiers' rates on that increased amount.
I will give your Lordships two actual examples of the result. For an owner to obtain an increase of £5 in Glasgow last year he would have been required to increase the rent by £8 10s. and the total cost to the tenant, taking occupiers' rates into account, would be over £14. That may seem peculiar to your Lordships, but there are worse instances than that, for, if we come to the higher rated areas of Lanarkshire, for the owner to obtain an extra £5 the cost to the tenant would be no less than £23 10s. 10d. Your Lordships will see that the true rent is obscured because the owner has to charge a gross rent which includes an element of owners' rates, and is also uncertain because he does not know from one year to another what his rating liability will be. Every time there is an increase in owners' rates, the sum available to meet the cost of maintaining the property becomes less.
In that connection, if I may go back to the year 1920, I find that a rent of £20 left the owner, after deduction of owners' rates, with £16 11s. 8d. To-day, the average is £12 3s. 4d. It is evident, therefore, that the system of owners' rates has had two very serious effects on the housing position in Scotland. It has discouraged the building of property for letting and, in the case of controlled houses, it has been an obstacle to landlords doing repairs which are as much in the tenant's interest as their own. The present system has a further disadvantage. It has made impossible a fair comparison of the rating resources of local authorities in Scotland and in England, and has prevented a proper allocation of Exchequer Equalisation Grant between the two countries.

1037
The Sorn Committee concluded that they were—and here I quote from their Report—
"in no doubt that owners' rates are now an unnecessary and harmful complication in the Scottish system of rating which disguises the finances of owners and occupiers of all classes of property and rating authorities alike, impedes the provision of housing and the growth of industry, and makes it impossible to introduce urgently necessary reforms in the valuation system."
In the Government's view this unanimous conclusion of the Sorn Committee, which has been endorsed by—among many others—the Convention of Royal Burghs and the Association of County Councils in Scotland, should be accepted, and effect is given to it in Clause 16 of the Bill. The Government have also accepted the Sorn Committee's recommendation that when owners' rates are abolished rents should be adjusted so that landlords and tenants neither lose nor gain as a direct result of the Bill. Any future increase of a landlord's return on his property will depend not upon the passing of this Bill or upon any consequences that flow from this Bill. This adjustment is achieved by subsection (2) of Clause 16 and the Third Schedule.
The Bill also provides for an entirely new system of valuation. At present the rateable value of property in Scotland is, as a rule, the rent at which it is let, or at which the assessor estimates that it could be let. In present conditions this has led to great unfairness. For example, the rents at which most houses are let—and so their rateable values—are so controlled and fixed that they are now quite different from the rents and rateable values of other types of property, such as shops and offices. The Sorn Committee pointed out that any valuation system to be fair must ensure that occupiers of similar premises have similar valuations, and that the present system does not do this. They accordingly recommended a new procedure under which the gross annual value will no longer be tied to the actual rent where one is passing. Instead, the assessor will determine for all properties the fair rent at which they might reasonably be let. In other words, the new system will base the liability for local rates on an impartial estimate of the fair return which the property would command in a free market.
1038
The Bill also proposes a reform in the method of valuing agricultural property. At present agricultural houses and land and buildings are valued together and rated on one-eighth of their joint value. This method of giving effect to derating preserves the conventional principle of valuing an agricultural property as a whole, and was Intended to secure broadly the same result as in England and Wales, where farmhouses are valued in the ordinary way but agricultural land and other farm buildings are completely derated. The Sorn Committee found, however, that the Scottish system had produced anomalies as between different subjects and had led to misunderstanding as to the purpose of agricultural derating. They therefore recommended that in Scotland, as in England, the land should be entirely derated and houses valued in the ordinary way. Effect is given to this recommendation in Clause 7.
The Bill also provides a better method of calculating the amount of Exchequer Equalisation Grant which should be-paid to Scottish local authorities. The purpose of the Equalisation Grant is to bring the rating resources of the poorer authorities up to a national standard, but great difficulty has been found in the past in deciding what the standard should be in Scotland. As your Lordships will remember, various methods have been tried, and since the passing of the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act, 1954, the total Scottish grant has been calculated as eleven-eightieths of the total English Brant.
This was, however, a temporary arrangement which has since been reexamined in the light of the Sorn Report by a committee under the chairmanship of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary. It is not possible until revaluation has been completed to determine the true relationship between rateable values in Scotland and in England, and the committee accordingly agreed that for the time being the Scottish grant must still be fixed on some interim basis. The Government have accepted the committee's recommendation and effect is given to this proposal in Clause 26 and the Sixth Schedule, and the new formula will operate from 16th May this year.
It has recently been estimated that for 1956–57 Scottish local authorities will receive approximately £2 million more by

1039
way of grant. No authority will lose as a result of the new formula, and while some will receive only small indirect benefits, many will benefit by as much as the equivalent of a 1s. rate or more. This is still an interim arrangement, and under Clause 29 will expire at the end of the sixth local financial year after the passing of the Bill.
Part III deals with the valuation and rating of gasworks. In pursuance of a suggestion made by the Sorn Committee, this difficult problem was examined by a working party of officials, and the scheme contained in Clauses 24 and 25 and the Fourth and Fifth Schedules is on the lines recommended in their report. It is based on the scheme contained in the English Act passed last year, but it also meets an objection taken by the Sorn Committee to the English scheme by providing for periodic reviews of the basic valuation used in determining the liability of the Gas Board for rates. These highly technical and complex proposals have been accepted by the Scottish Gas Board, and, with some reservations, by the local authority associations.
To sum up, the Government are convinced that the present valuation and rating system is out of date, is full of anomalies and is detrimental to Scottish development, and that the fundamental changes provided for in the Bill are essential. I have reason to hope that noble Lords opposite will agree with that sentiment. As I said previously, the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, signed the unanimous Report presented by the Sorn Committee, and the noble Lord, Lord Mathers, made an eloquent appeal to the Government in 1954 not to delay in dealing with the reform of the Scottish rating system. The noble Lord was also a member of Lord Sorn's first Committee, which at least implied that something ought to be done.
I trust that your Lordships will agree that the passing of this Bill should not be delayed, since a great deal will have to be done after it receives the Royal Assent, and done very quickly in order to bring it into operation next year. In my view, there can be no doubt whatsoever that this Bill will be of immense benefit to Scotland, and that it will remove obstacles to the development of industry and the production of houses,
1040
and will ensure a fair deal for Scottish ratepayers. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Strathclyde.)
4.29 p.m.
LORD BURDEN: My Lords, I would not dare to presume to intervene in a Scottish problem, and particularly such a complex problem as this, especially as my noble friends Lord Mathers and Lord Greenhill are experts in this matter. But, by the courtesy of my noble friend Lord Mathers, I rise just to make one point. If I may do so as a local government man, I should first like to express my gratification that these powers and responsibilities remain with the local authorities. The staff who have been engaged in this work, or some of them at any rate, are gravely apprehensive as to their future under the regulations which will be issued. I have met some of these men and women, and I can assure the noble Lord that when I say they are gravely apprehensive I am speaking the exact truth. I am sure it would be possible to clear away those apprehensions, and if the Minister in charge of the Bill would be so kind as to meet me with one of their representatives, I am sure we should be able to solve these problems. If I can take that to be so, I should be very happy indeed.
4.32 p.m.
LORD MATHERS: My Lords, we are indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for a very clear and comprehensive review of the position with which we are faced, and more particularly the position with which the Sorn Committee was faced when it set about its task of making the review upon which this Bill is so largely based. The noble Lord has certainly our unanimous agreement that this is a very important Bill. I am sure that he also has our endorsement of the tribute that he paid to Lord Sorn and those who worked with him so well in order to produce the document which is, as I say, the basis of this Bill.
The noble Lord has indicated that my noble friend Lord Greenhill was a member of that Committee, and he seemed to seize upon Lord Greenhill as a witness on his behalf. Then he harked back to an adventure of mine in this particular field when Mr. Tom Johnston was Secretary of State for Scotland and

1041
put me on a Committee that started under the then Dean of the Faculty of Advocates, who was named McIntyre, but finished under Lord Sorn, the same person. The Committee was set up to ascertain how it might be possible to accelerate the building of houses in Scotland. It made recommendations with regard to dealing with owners' rates in a way that would help to remove that particular obstacle to the greater provision of houses which were so much needed at that time.
The Sorn Committee did its work very well indeed, against a background of a tangled skein of administration and difficulty because of this owners' rates position. I was readily agreeable to what was proposed in that Committee for dealing with owners' rates. There was some apprehension then, I remember, about taking away the full responsibility of owners' rates, and the readiness with which I agreed to what was proposed was due to the fact that I had lived for fourteen years south of the Border and knew how much more smoothly the English system was working. It was there also that I had my only incursion into local politics when I served on the Carlisle City Council for a short period before I was moved to Edinburgh.
The Sorn Committee during the time of its work also had a background of considerable apprehensiveness on the part of tenants when it was known that there was a recommendation about the removal of owners' rats. I am sure that those tenants were in large measure labouring under a misapprehension; it was thought that that taking away of liability for owners rates would make serious difficulty for the tenant; but the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has made it clear today that the component in the rent hereafter will be adjusted by lowering the rent to the extent of the amount of that rates component that has to be allowed for.
I am hoping that very great progress will be made under this Bill. It has had more extensive discussion, I think, in another place than any Bill which if can remember. Indeed, I have been saying to my honourable friends in another place that they seem to me to be talking the Bill threadbare, and it comes to us practically in that position. I do not profess to have read every word of the discussions that have taken place—that would have meant my going on a long vacation
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and settling down to it—but I observed that great care was being given to the discussion of the terms of the Bill when it was before the Committee in another place. I think now, therefore, that it is hardly necessary for this House to spend much time upon it. Most of the points have been made clear, and the Government's intention has been made clearly manifest.
There is a usefulness, however, that may come from this Bill's appearance here, and the fact that it can be discussed here. I am quite certain that during many of the exchanges in another place there was no certainty on the part of the Government as to whether they should or should not refuse what was being pleaded for f:7om the Opposition side of that House. I put it to the noble Lord in charge of the Bill: has he any news to give of the further consideration that I am sure must have been given to the Bill since it passed in another place; and whether there is anything that we can hope for in the way of improvement—I am talking from an Opposition point of view—along the line that was advanced in another place?
I have indicated the close contact that my noble friend Lord Greenhill has had with all that has gone to produce this Sorn Committee Report. But apart from that, of course, he is exceedingly well equipped, from his Scottish local authority experience, from his knowledge of affairs gained through his service as Treasurer of the City of Glasgow, to deal with this subject. That seems to me to make him very much better equipped than I am to deal with the intricacies of this Bill. I am glad that he has acceded to my wish that he should undertake that task to a much greater extent than could possibly be done by myself, but I wish to put on record the position of the Scottish Gas Board with regard to Part III of the Bill. The noble Lori, Lord Strathclyde, in his speech indicated that arrangements had been made in that connection. Here I must declare an interest because I am a part-time member of the Scottish Gas Board. We have accepted, with some misgivings and with some concern, the arrangements that have been made, but should like to put a statement on record for the information of all who care to read it, and, more particularly, for the information of the Government, in order that they may have at hand knowledge of

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how this Bill affects the gas industry in Scotland, and that in any considerations which arise they may have this point of view in mind.
I asked that some notes might be given to me in this regard, and the statement which I have received from the Chairman of the Scottish Gas Board is so clear and so succinct that I wish simply to put that statement on record at this point. Here it is:
"The Bill proposes certain changes in valuation which will affect the Scottish Gas Board. The present method of determining the Board's valuation for rating is known as the revenue principle. This principle operates by means of adjustments or disallowances on the Board's profit and loss account. If, taking one year with another, the Board makes neither profit nor loss in the ordinary accounting sense, the effect of the adjustments referred to is to produce a 'profit' (or 'surplus') the amount of which determines the annual rateable value. Broadly speaking, this 'surplus' is equivalent to the annual capital charges for interest and depreciation on the fixed assets of the Board.
"Year by year, therefore, the valuation reflects the rise or fall in capital expenditure. In the period since vesting date the Scottish Gas Board have had to incur high capital expenditure, mainly in the replacement of plant which could not be replaced during the ten years between 1939 and vesting date because of wartime and post-war shortages of labour and materials. In normal circumstances this expenditure, quite properly, would have entered into the valuation which, having been run down during the period of low replacement, would thereby be raised again to its original level. But owing to the inflationary conditions which have prevailed during the past seven years, when replacements have cost something like three times the cost of the assets replaced, the valuation is rising far beyond its original level. Thus the Board's valuation, because it is recalculated annually, is being rapidly influenced by inflated prices, whilst other valuations which are revised only at relatively long intervals are remaining comparatively static. Furthermore, any accounting profits earned in excess of the annual capital charges previously referred to, even if only for the purpose of creating those reserves required by the Gas Act, 1948, enter into the valuation on the revenue principle and are dissipated to the extent of at least 50 per cent. in rates. No other manufacturing industry to-day has to carry such a burden, and in other nationalised industries the revenue principle has been abandoned; for railway and electricity undertakings when they were nationalised in 1948 and for English Gas Boards by the recent Rating and Valuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act.
"The Sorn Committee, in paragraph 111 of their report, recognised the defects of the revenue principle of valuation especially in its application to undertakings which require to embark on both new and replacement construction during periods of sharply rising prices, and
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they recommend that alternative methods of valuing the Scottish Gas Board's undertaking should be investigated. This was done by a Working Party set up by the Secretary of State upon which the Scottish local authorities, the Scottish Gas Board and the Ministry of Fuel and Power were represented.
"In brief, the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Bill provides that for the transitional period until 1961–62 the Scottish Gas Board's valuation shall be frozen at the level of the valuation for the current year. 1956–57, subject only to annual adjustment in respect of changes in output. During this transitional period, therefore, the Board's valuation will be treated similarly to other valuations in Scotland which are also to be frozen; furthermore, the method of determining the valuation during this time will resemble closely the methods used for determining the valuations of English Gas Boards and other nationalised industries, with this important exception, that the frozen valuation of 1956–57 will be at a higher level than the basic valuations of other nationalised industries, which are those of their respective pre-vesting years.
"In 1961–62 the Scottish Gas Board will be revalued, again on the revenue principle, but the normal operation of the principle will be modified in such ways as the Secretary of State may prescribe after consultation with the Board and the local authorities. A similar revaluation is to take place every fifth year after 1961–62. It is unfortunate that the revenue principle, albeit with modifications, is to be perpetuated in this way, having regard to the known deficiencies of this method of valuation; and it is not altogether satisfactory that the determination of future valuations should depend partly upon negotiations between the interested parties. The best that can be said for these provisions of the Bill is that they leave a measure of flexibility and provide for future discussions and negotiations out of which may ultimately emerge a more precise solution to what is admittedly a difficult and complicated problem.
"The method of apportioning the valuation of the Scottish Gas Board between the local authorities concerned throughout Scotland, which is now based upon the structural cost of the parts of the undertaking in each rating area, was also criticised by the Sorn Committee, and the Bill replaces it by a method based on the production and consumption of gas in each rating area. Such a method was introduced for Gas Boards in England and Wales by the Rating and Valuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act passed last year. Only experience will tell if the new method is more equitable than the old."
That is the statement of the Scottish Gas Board. They are by no means satisfied that the provisions of the Bill will secure for them complete equality of treatment with other ratepayers, or with other nationalised industries, but they reluctantly accept the Bill as the best compromise at present obtainable between their views and those of the Scottish local authorities. I put that

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fairly long statement on record, in order that it may he a guide to the Government by enabling them to know what is the precise position of the Scottish Gas Board. It only remains for me to thank the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde.. for the presentation of the Bill. We shall look forward to examining its details more closely at a later date.
4.50 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I should like to add my support and welcome to this Bill. I am certain that it will I be of immense value to house building in Scotland in the years to come. As the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, pointed out, it is a Bill of great technical complexity, and I feel that it would not be proper for a layman such as myself to plunge very deeply into its details, but I hope your Lordships will bear with me if I make a few observations on what might be some of its less important aspects.
The first matter on which I should like to touch concerns the assessors who will be acting under Clause 1 of the Bill. They are going to have great responsibility, and I think it is of the utmost importance that they should be men of the highest qualifications. I should like to suggest that, if possible, they should be members or fellows of the Land Agents Society or the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors. I feel flat the Scottish Valuation Advisory Council which is to be set up under Clause 3 would benefit by the experience of such people as retired county clerks, who are invariably men of the widest practical experience and wisdom in these matters, and, what I think is almost more important, they are men who have rightly earned the respect of the general public with whom they have dealt throughout their lives.
I am not quite happy about limiting the right of appeal to the year of revaluation—in other words, every five years—which Clause 9 sets out to do. I realise that under the relevant subsection are set out the widest possible exceptions to this, which cover practically every material change of circumstance and practically every emergency that can be thought of. If the exceptions are so comprehensive, it might be better to allow the right of
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appeal whenever a person wished to make it. I do not feel that the Appeals Committee would be swamped by a flood of trivial complaints. I think that the public's sense of responsibility would prevent that. Where an occupier makes an appeal against an assessment, it would be only fair that the owner should be notified. I appreciate that he does not come into the matter directly, but I think it would cause a great deal less confusion if that provision could be inserted in the Bill.
So far none of the noble Lords who has spoken has touched on Clause 17; I do not know why. The history of Clause 17 struck me as being a little curious. The Sorn Committee recommended that some portion of rates should be levied on the owners of unoccupied houses. When this Bill was first introduced in another place, no provision was made for that at all, and it was only on Report stage that Clause 17 was introduced. I think that your Lordships would be grateful if we could have a little more light thrown on this situation. Why exactly was a clause introduced in this manner, and what exactly does it set out to achieve?
I have only two observations to make on it at this stage. The first is that if Clause 17 is designed to remedy a particular situation that has arisen in a particular area in Scotland, I feel that it is rather hard on property owners throughout Scotland that they should have to suffer for the practice of what I am quite certain is a minority. My other point is that it can be argued reasonably that unoccupied premises benefit from the rates—for instance, from police protection and protection against fire—and that owners should pay some contribution towards the rates. I do not think that your Lordships would seriously quarrel with that. But I feel that if that is the case and if that is the reason for Clause 17, the proportion levied—the charge, as it is called—of 25 per cent. is too high. I think it should be 10 per cent. or possibly 15 per cent. I do not wish to detain your Lordships any longer. I should like once again to welcome the Bill. I think that on this occasion Scotland has learned something from England, and I feel certain that it Will be put to very good account.
4.57 p.m.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was good enough to point out that I had been a member of the Sorn Committee, and since I am the only Member of either House who was a member of that Committee, perhaps I may be permitted to follow the noble Lord in congratulating Lord Sorn and to say how much he deserves every possible tribute we can pay him. As the noble Lord pointed out, the Committee's Report was unanimous, though the members of the Committee were of different political opinions. I am not sure that I feel comfortable under that piece of praise. Though it is true that we arrived at the same destination, it does not follow that we all trod exactly the same path in order to reach it. Part of the tribute due to Lord Sorn is due to his patience, his kindly manner and the charm of his personality, which perhaps subdued a little of the fire we might have shown and persuaded us that to modify a little our extreme positions would be more reasonable in the circumstances. There is no doubt that every member of the Committee was impressed by the profound knowledge and wide experience in the law and practice of valuation and rating that Lord Sorn undoubtedly possesses. We saw in his dealing with expert witnesses how well he was able to bring out all the difficult and intricate points of which valuation is so full.
If your Lordships will not think it egotistical, I would say that my own biases were along these lines. I was anxious to ensure that the rate burden, in the event of owners' rates being abolished, would not be too heavy on the poorer section of the community. Incidentally, I began with the view that owners' rates ought to be abolished because they were obsolete, they were creating the difficulties that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has to some extent mentioned, and it would be helpful if we could do away with this antiquated method of raising local revenues by substituting something which would achieve the same thing, without benefiting the landlords, on the one hand, or penalising the tenants, the occupiers, on the other. Another point that occurred to me, and about which I was concerned, was the question of equalisation grant, about which I will say a few words in a moment.
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The third point was the position of housing revenue accounts in local authority housing departments. Any little opposition that I felt to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was due to what I sensed was an overemphasis of the difficulties that private landlords had suffered in the past. While I am not prepared to deny that in some cases they have suffered—and, indeed, part of the dilapidation we see in Scotland is due to the inability of some landlords to pay for the cost of keeping up their properties—nevertheless, I think that nowadays we had better realise that the increasingly large landlord is the local authority itself. No-one will know better than the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, how hopelessly distorted are the housing revenue accounts of local authorities by the unsatisfactory financial basis under which they are working just now. It seems absurd that in the case of Lanarkshire, for example, which the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, mentioned, although they are landlords and therefore are owners of property, they, as owners of property, have to pay owners' rates to themselves in excess of the amount that they receive for rents. I think that in some cases that is true.
It is, as I say, undoubted that this spiral effect of owners' rates has had an evil influence on the building of new houses, on the keeping in repair of old houses and on the erection of factories, because of the uncertainty of future trends. Therefore I feel that by the abolition of owners' rents we shall, in the long run, benefit considerably. Indeed, I think it is no exaggeration to say that, in anticipation of the passing of this Bill, we are already seeing a certain increase in the building of houses by factory owners who are anxious to house their own workers, because of the difficulty of getting homes for them near their work.
However, I am not quite so happy about the matter of equalisation of grant. A rough mental calculation suggested this. First of all, it is admitted that Scottish valuations were higher than English. Therefore, in the calculations of equalisation grant some kind of addition had to be made to the English average in order to bring it into what was hoped would be the line adequate for Scotland. The first figure adopted was 25 per cent., and it was adopted not as a result of any

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careful reckoning, but simply because some thirty years ago that had been the figure assumed as the appropriate figure; and, of course, it was found that that was totally inadequate. As the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has already told us, that was changed to the Goschen formula. The Goschen formula has again been revised, and another basis, embodied in this Bill, has been adopted, it, too, being merely an interim arrangement.
Should this new formula be regarded as adequate? I am inclined to say that it should not. I say that not because of any fault I am finding with the Secretary of State but because I feel that behind this arrangement lies the hidden hand of the Treasury. My own calculation was something like this. If English valuations were to undergo the revaluation, which has now been completed, it would show (I guessed in those days) that English valuations would go up considerably; and if, on top of that. Scotland was to get its additional increase, then Scotland would get very much more than it is getting even under this particular formula Secondly, if Scotland were to go through its own revaluation, then, in my view—I may be wrong, of course—the valuations would come down considerably, if for no other reason than that the owner's proportion of rate would no longer be included in the valuation figure. Therefore, there would again be, for the purposes of equalisation grant, a much higher figure given to Scotland. If your Lordships wish an actual figure to be put upon that, I would say that if the present figure of equalisation for Scotland is something over £9 million, then you could multiply that by two, or even three, as the figure of equalisation grant which ought to come to Scotland under the basis of a revaluation in England and a revaluation in Scotland. That would mean a tremendous addition to the giant coming to Scotland. It would mean, also, a great reduction in the rate poundages which would be necessary to maintain that same revenue.
It seems strange to me that Clauses 26, 27 and 28 of the Bill, dealing with equalisation grant, were hardly debated in another place. When I ask myself why there should be this apparent ignoring of this valuable series of clauses, the only conclusion I can come to is that
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nobody understands them except the expert; nobody appreciates the significance of the formula contained in those clauses, and, therefore, they are just going through in ignorance. However, I feel that this Bill, with whatever faults it may possess, is a great advance on the position hitherto; and I believe that, with a greater uniformity of valuation throughout Great Britain, we shall certainly get a much more equitable distribution of the grant than has been the case hitherto.
But I do feel that a word of appeal should be made to those valuation authorities which the Bill will set up. If I understand the feeling that is prevalent at the moment, I think there is a certain resentment at the disturbance of the existing machinery which the Bill will create. As the noble Lord is aware, assessors and their staffs will cease to be employed at a certain date, and there will be a new appointment of staffs and assessors. As the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, pointed our, the qualifications will be much more closely examined in future than they have been in the past, though I, for one, am not prepared to condemn the standard of those who have worked hitherto.
The areas will be different, and combinations will be necessary. I gather that some officials are saying to themselves, "Why should we work this at all? We are being disturbed. We are finding difficulty in getting staffs. It is going to cost us money, and we are not being paid for it." The Sorn Committee, as the noble Lord is aware, recommended that 50 per cent. of the costs of the valuation authorities should be met, and, for reasons which I frankly do not understand, the Secretary of State has not been prepared to grant authorities that proportion of the costs. My own belief is that if the Secretary of State could say to these authorities that he is prepared to consider making them a grant of 50 per cent. towards their valuation set-up costs, not only would the Secretary of State have, by virtue of the grant he gives, a greater control over the workings of these assessors' departments, but he would also have a much greater measure of good will in carrying through these difficult preliminary stages which are urgently needed. I hope that the Secretary of State will give that particular aspect his serious consideration, because I think it will lead to an improvement of the present situation.

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The other kind of appeal I should like to make is this. Whatever inconvenience present assessing authorities feel themselves under, they should, in the general interest, try to fall in with the requirements of this Bill, because in the long run not only will the individual authorities be more certain of their financial position, but the whole machine will run smoothly and efficiently and will not create the anomalies from which we have suffered in the past. I am highly gratified that the Government have, to some extent, embodied the Sorn Committee recommendations, and I hope that, with such improvements as we can suggest in the course of the Committee stage, this Bill will go through and become the law of the country.
5.14 p.m.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, I wish to welcome this Bill, which is, as has been stated already, about the most important piece of legislation as regards Scotland which we have had before us for a very long time. I should also like to say how lucky we are to have the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, with us for the later stages of this Bill, with his great knowledge of the Sorn Committee Report. There is only one doubt I have about this Bill, or one thing about which I am not happy, and that is Clause 17. The White Paper on Valuation and Rating in Scotland emphasised no fewer than nine times in the first two pages the desire and, I might say, the determination of the Government to abolish owners' rates. The White Paper ends up by saying:
"So long as owners' rates remain in any shape or form, the element of unpredictability which has proved so harmful in the past will also remain."
It is true to say that in the Sorn Report itself, paragraph 148, dealing with unoccupied property, says:
"If owners' rates are abolished, unoccupied property would not be rateable at all. This, we think, is as it should be, but it has been suggested to us by an important local authority witness that the assessor should be entitled to designate separately in the Valuation Roll any unoccupied subject which is lettable but which the proprietor is not genuinely seeking to let.…"
The operative thing that conies next is:
"We agree that a provision for rating owners who are not genuinely seeking to let empty but lettable dwelling houses is reasonable."
Then it goes on to say that property—
LORD GREENHILL: Will the noble Viscount complete the sentence?
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I am sorry. I goes on:
"but we doubt whether it is properly a matter for the assessor. It is not a valuation question but one rather, like the existing remission of occupiers' rates under Section 243 (2) of the Act of 1947, for the administrative discretion of the local authority. We therefore recommend that it should be dealt with by a provision to the effect that the local authority may after due notice levy such proportion of the new single rate …"
I do not want to read any more unless the noble Lord wishes. The point I want to bring out is that the Sorn Report confined itself to dwelling-houses, and it also definitely set a proportion of the single rate. With great respect, it does seem to me that the inclusion in the Bill of Clause 17 (5), which reads:
"A charge under this section shall be leviable and recoverable as if it were a rate and shall be treated as money paid as rates."
is the sort of—shall I call it?—deception or masking which is hardly worthy of the Bill. There is a justification, possibly, for having some form of rates for services such as fire, police, and so on. I would be much happier if it were honestly admitted, and not covered up by what, to my mind, is not worthy of the Fourth Form at Eton as a form of deception.
If the noble Lord can tell us, I should like to know why the provision in Clause 17 goes far wider than the Sorn Committee Report. If he could tell us why that is, I should be most grateful. We must remember, as the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, has told us, that the biggest landlord in Scotland to-day is the local authority. How often is the local authority going to leave its houses and make no attempt to let them? I hope I have not misrepresented the noble Lord—I think he did say that.
LORD GREENHILL: Yes, that is perfectly true.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I will leave it at that. There is only one other thing which I think rather a pity. When we are having a complete reorganisation of the rating system, which is very much required, and when I think practically everybody is in favour of the whole scheme, I feel it is a pity that the position of Crown property was not taken into account and streamlined or cleaned up,

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whatever one likes to call it. I have in mind fire stations, police stations, G.P.O. property and Territorial drill halls. Most of them now pay a contribution, but the net result is that the contribution they pay to the local authorities, who are very short of money and supply full services to all these people, works out at about one-half of what it would do if they were rated under the normal method of rating that is proposed for the rest of the people. I shall have to be rather careful what I say about the Territorials, but I feel that in these days one can hardly say that the former reasons apply. They are not now really a local voluntary effort—I suppose they are, to some extent, but not to the same extent as they used to be. The War Office should face up to their commitments and pay proper rates. When all is said and done, what happens is that we have to receive a bigger equalisation grant, so we get the money in the end. I suggest that this matter should be streamlined and we should have a little automation in the Treasury.
5.22 p.m.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, with the other speakers, I welcome this Bill. Like both my noble friends on this side of the House, I think that Clause 17 needs a great deal more explanation. My noble friend Lord Lothian hinted tactfully at its possibly rather disreputable origins. I propose to be somewhat more explicit, because what the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, said is perfectly true: that the rest of Scotland is to be invited to suffer for the sins, if they be sins, of Glasgow and what I may call its immediate surroundings. It will not be the first time that the rest of Scotland has been in that unfortunate position. Noble Lords are aware, I imagine, that the motto of Glasgow is "Let Glasgow flourish!" Under the Socialist administration, under which we have now suffered for a number of years, that motto has been unofficially extended to read "Let Glasgow flourish!—all except that miserable section of its inhabitants which dares to own private property in the shape of houses."
The fact that the housing situation in Glasgow is as it is to-day is largely due to the implacable hostility that the town councils show to the building of houses for owner occupancy, or indeed to houses
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belonging to any private person at all. I hold no brief for Glasgow property owners as a whole—many of them in the past have undoubtedly kept houses in a very poor condition—but why does a landlord keep a house empty when he is obviously losing money by so doing? In nine out of ten cases, the reason is that he wishes to sell the property, and the reason he cannot sell it is not always that he is asking too high a price; sometimes it is that he does not wish to sell because he wants to get rid of the whole block of similar houses.
Again and again your Lordships will see in Scottish papers notifications of sales of one or more houses to wind up a trust. I have frequently noticed, in the case of a trustee of a will, or a public institution or a local authority which is receiving a legacy or something of that sort, how long proceedings have been delayed because the trust could not be wound up owing to its having certain real estate that could not be disposed of. Very often to sell a block of houses without vacant possession means that the owner—and that owner, all too often, is a person of very limited means—must lose a great deal of the value of the property. Therefore, to assume that everyone who keeps a house empty is doing so for some malevolent purpose, is entirely incorrect.
Where it is done unjustifiably applies almost entirely to the Glasgow area. But even there, why should the small property owner be deprived of a large proportion of the value of the house? I submit it is unfair. It is most unfortunate that Clause 17 should ever have been accepted by the Government. I should like to see it exorcised altogether on the Committee stage, or, if it is not to be removed, the figure of 25 per cent, reduced to the much more reasonable figure of, say, 10 per cent., as was proposed by the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, If that is not done, we shall be in danger of inflicting a definite injustice on small property owners who, whatever the town council of Glasgow say, are by no means always persons of ill repute.
LORD GREENHILL: I am not sure what the Standing Orders of your Lordships' House are, but, since this is an attack upon a city with which I have had and still have some connections, perhaps I might get up, not to apologise

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for Glasgow but to clarify the position and convince the noble Earl that Glasgow is not nearly so bad—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, Order!
LORD GREENHILL: If I am permitted by the House to make this explanation, I will give it. It is for your Lordships to say.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH AND QUEENSBERRY: My Lords, may I add only two or three sentences in order to emphasise further how great is the demand and approval for this Bill. My noble friend Lord Strathclyde is justified in claiming that this is a most important Bill. There is general agreement that it is a great advance. There has been long discussion in another place, with many Amendments of the Bill and criticisms, but it is recognised that this is a very useful Bill. Our criticisms here have been limited to one or two points, and in other respects I think there is little need for controversy. I submit that Scotland is indebted to the Secretary of State, to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and to their advisers for the great care and trouble they have taken in the preparation of this Bill. It will be most helpful in rating and housing problems in Scotland. We have a very good Secretary of State for Scotland, who devotes himself whole-heartedly to the affairs of Scotland. Now that this discussion has taken place, I suggest that our thanks are due to him and to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for this Bill.
5.27 p.m.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, I should like first of all to thank all those noble Lords who have taken part in our debate this afternoon for the helpful manner in which they have put forward their various suggestions. I will reply to the best of my ability to such points as appear to call for a reply from me now. I should like to say, even in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Burden, so that it may be on the record, that I shall be very pleased to meet him at any time which is convenient to him with any persons whom he cares to bring with him for the purposes which he mentioned in the course of his remarks.
The noble Lord, Lord Mathers, asked me whether I could give any news as to further improvements. I am sure your
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Lordships will be gratified to learn that the Government cannot at this moment think of any further Amendments to this Bill. I hope that will help to speed it on its way through this House. I have to thank the noble Lord for the full explanation he gave about the position of the Scottish Gas Board, which will be noted, naturally, when the Report of this debate is printed. The new suggestions are really more fair and logical than those which have been in being up till now. I hope that they will prove satisfactory when they are put into operation.
The noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, said that assessors should be men of the highest qualifications, and he suggested that members of the Land Agents' Society and of the Institute of Chartered Surveyors should be considered. There is no reason whatsoever to prevent their being considered, and in due course no doubt they will be. Then he asked me about the Scottish Valuation Advisory Council and about county clerks being on that body. I can tell him that there is nothing in the Bill to prevent the appointment of county clerks, provided that they are men experienced in law or in valuation. The noble Marquess also mentioned the question of appeals. The owner will receive notice of the valuation, and it does not seem to be necessary for him to receive notice of any appeal since, of course, under the new arrangements, he will not be called upon to pay the rates.
Now I come to the clause which appears to be troubling most noble Lords, Clause 17, which was mentioned both by the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, and also by the noble Viscount, Lord Stone-haven. I was invited by the noble Marquess to say why my right honourable friend the Secretary of State proceeded as he did, and he asked me what the clause sets out to achieve. I agree with the history which the noble Marquess mentioned, but, of course, Clause 17 was introduced as the result of an undertaking which was given by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State during the discussion on the Committee stage in another place. When the Bill was originally put forward the clause was not there, and it was inserted on the Report stage, as the result of that undertaking.
There is obviously a great difference of opinion on this matter, but I think the

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real reason which made the Secretary of State give an undertaking to consider the matter was that it was a recommendation of the Sorn Committee; and it seems that there is at least some justification for requiring an owner who deliberately keeps his property empty without reason to pay at least something towards the cost of services which are provided. There are the police who, after all, give him some, measure of protection there are the fire services, which give him another measure of protection; and it may even be that the fact of his unoccupied house being there was taken into consideration when, for instance, a new water main was laid in the vicinity by the county council or by the local authority. For these reasons, my right honourable friend came to the conclusion that it was right that owners of unoccupied property who keep their property unoccupied without any reasonable cause should contribute something towards those services. As I have said, there may be differences of opinion, but it seems to me—
THE EARL OF STAIR: May I interrupt with one question? Who is to be the judge of the reasonable cause? That is the only thing that is worrying me.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: In the first instance, the local authority. But the owner, if he is dissatisfied, can go to the sheriff; and then, of course, the decision will be that of the sheriff. I think that noble Lords will find that there are considerable safeguards in Clause 17, and I hope that those safeguards will be sufficient to prevent any injustice from being done to those who happen to have unoccupied houses.
LORD MATHERS: For over six months.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: The noble Lord says, "for over six months." It may be for a longer period than that, because the noble Lord will realise that the local authority have first of all to satisfy themselves as to the conditions under which the house is being kept unoccupied, and then there is to be six months' notice before anything can be done in the matter.
LORD MATHERS: That is what seek to suggest; that quite a considerable time must elapse before any attempt can be made to apply this 25 per cent.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: Beyond that, I hope that the other safeguards will be sufficient. The noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, said he thought the only thing he would take me to task about was that I had over-emphasised the difficulties of private landlords. May I say to the noble Lord that he has known me for a great many years, and I think that he knows very well what my views on that subject are: that no body of persons in this country has ever been treated so badly as private landlords, even in the last forty years. I have said that repeatedly in the noble Lord's presence in another place. I have said it often in the City Council in Glasgow many years ago. I say it can be proved over and over again.
My Lords, we are not, of course, debating a measure dealing with rents or the treatment of property owners; we are debating the question of rating and valuation, and on that topic the noble Lord has referred to the equalisation grant. I rather thought that the noble Lord was almost taking me to task because, in the first place, this equalisation grant system was introduced and only 25 per cent. was added so far as Scotland was concerned. He did, say that it was adopted as a result of no careful reckoning and was quite inadequate. Of course, I had no responsibility for the Government which introduced that measure—indeed, it was stated at the time that the 25 per cent. was quite inadequate. Since then, it has been increased to eleven-eightieths of the amount paid in England. The noble Lord says that the new formula is again inadequate. That may well be so, but I do not think that at this moment anyone is in a position to judge. I thought that the trend of the noble Lord's argument was merely to reinforce the statement that I made in the course of my remarks: that it was not possible to arrive at any just apportionment as between the two countries until revaluation had been completed.
The noble Lord also referred to resentment at the new distribution of assessors' areas and, duties, and, in particular, at the fact that the Government had not seen fit to accept the Sorn Committee's recommendation that a grant of 50 per cent, should be given in respect of the cost of assessors' staff. The explanation of that is quite simple. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State gave the local authorities the option as to whether this service should remain a local authority

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service or whether it should be undertaken by the Inland Revenue, as it is in England. The local authorities, so far as I understand it, came down on the side that it should remain a local authority service. That being so, the Government can see no just reason why they should give a grant in respect of this service which is now a local authority service and does not receive grant, and which is going to continue to be a local government service.
I think I have answered that part of Lord Stonehaven's speech which referred to Clause 17, and, if he will allow me, I should like to communicate with him in regard to the point he made about Crown property.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: Before the noble Lord sits down, would he just reply to the one part which he has not answered, or perhaps I have not heard it—namely, why the clause in the Bill is wider than the recommendation of the Sorn Committee? Why are factories and farmlands or all properties included in regard to the 25 per cent. rate, whereas the Sorn Committee recommended only dwelling-houses?
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I am sorry if I omitted to answer that point. The reason is that my right honourable friend and the Government considered that this was the logical course to take.
I hope that I have answered most of the questions that were put to me. I will conclude by again thanking noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and, in particular, express my sincere thanks to the noble Duke, the Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry, for his reference to the Secretary of State and his advisers and the amount of work they have put into this Bill, and also for the further remarks that he made in relation to my right honourable friend.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL
5.42 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MATHERS: My Lords, there has been a certain amount of contention in this House to-day. We now come to an item about which there will be no contention. In moving that this Bill be given a Second Reading, I do so on the assumption that your Lordships wish the course of true love to run smoothly. The object of the Bill is precisely that, and there is no young Lochinvar or Jock o'Hazeldean business about it. The Bill is the work of Mr. Bence, the Member for East Dunbartonshire, and it had the backing of all Parties in another place. In addition, it has had a cordial welcome from the Government.
The object of the Bill is achieved by giving civilians the facility to be married in Scotland without the usual requirement of fifteen days' residence in Scotland before the giving of notice to the registrar by one of the contracting parties. Before 1939, both parties were required to have fifteen days' residence in Scotland to permit of civil marriage. There was a greater facility in respect of a church marriage, but that was the case with regard to civil marriage. It is now possible for a member of the Forces to satisfy the residence qualification if the home from which he has temporarily withdrawn is his usual residence. It will be apparent to your Lordships that service in the Forces is not the only cause of young people being temporarily, or even permanently, out of Scotland; and it is quite natural that a young man or woman should wish to be married in Scotland where his or her parents and friends of youth are in residence. I am confident that it will be your Lordships' desire to extend the Services facility to benefit civilians as well.
I may inform your Lordships that the Church of Scotland, which has much to do with the proclamation of banns, has already approved, in principle, a change in its arrangements giving effect to the purpose of this Bill, and there is a clause in the Bill to allow the necessary change to be made by the Church. Certain helpful Amendments to the Bill were made in Committee in another place, and I now present it to this House as a measure

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to which I believe we may confidently agree as a desirable and helpful addition to Scottish law. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a.— (Lord Mathers.)
LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, I rise merely to say that the Government welcome this Bill, which they believe will serve a useful purpose, in that it will eliminate hardship which does occasionally arise. In the Government's view it is entirely reasonable that the cause of this hardship should be removed, as it is by this Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CROYDON CORPORATION BILL
Reported, with Amendments.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) (No. 2) BILL
Reported, with Amendments.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (GREAT YARMOUTH PORT AND HAVEN) BILL PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (WISBECH PORT AND HARBOUR) BILL
Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House.
UNDERGROUND WORKS (LONDON) BILL
Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House.

MILLPORT PIERS (AMENDMENT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons: read 1a, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
House adjourned at seventeen minutes before six o'clock.