Sitting of 9 February 1956

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Purchase Tax
    Miss Burtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the representations of the Midland Federation of Road Safety Committees, details of which have been sent to him, concerning the ruling of the Customs and Excise authorities to the effect that the proposed fitting, as a safety measure, of side windows to the vans of the Coventry water undertaking would result in an additional payment of Purchase Tax of £100 per vehicle, if he will, in the interests of road safety, reduce the Purchase Tax in such cases.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Henry Brooke): No, Sir. Vans with side windows behind the driver's seat must be treated like shooting brakes and private cars for Purchase Tax purposes. This was decided some years ago after consideration of representations made on behalf of both manufacturers and users, when the road safety aspect was taken fully into account.
    Miss Burton: Is the Financial Secretary aware that really that answer is not good enough; that in Coventry we have found that the vans are far more liable to accident when they are without side windows, and that it is quite impossible to pay the £100 extra in Purchase Tax? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the matter again if I send representations to him?
    Mr. Brooke: I am not sure that the hon. Lady appreciates that there is no objection to a window beside the driver's seat. This is a matter of windows in the sides of the van behind the driver's seat.
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    I have driven a great many cars and vans and I have never had cause to look out of those windows.
    Mr. Mossasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the tax on miners' safety gloves; and whether he will remove it, in view of the fact that about 30 per cent. of reportable accidents in coal mines are injuries to the hands and fingers of miners, causing loss of work and production.
    Mr. H. Brooke: The tax is 5 per cent. of the wholesale value. My right hon. Friend could not make a special discrimination in favour of miners' gloves, and the possibility of exempting all protective clothing from tax has been examined by successive Governments and found to be impracticable.
    Mr. Moss: Will the right hon. Gentleman look at these gloves which I have brought from a colliery? Does he realise that the National Coal Board subsidises them in order to protect miners' hands from injury and not suffer loss of production? Is it not foolish that the Coal Board should subsidise these gloves while the Government tax them?
    Mr. Brooke: The hon. Member has raised the difficult question, which has been considered by successive Governments, of how to deal with the many various kinds of protective clothing that exist. So far, we have found no solution that would not increase the number of anomalies.

    Minimum Liquidity Ratio
    Mr. D. Priceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in order to strengthen the Government's control over the credit and monetary mechanism of the nation, he will consider introducing legislation to enforce a minimum liquidity ratio with power to vary such a minimum liquidity ratio, within specified limits, according to the economic needs of the nation.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): No, Sir.
    Mr. Price: Will the hon. Gentleman give further consideration to this proposal, as American experience suggests that this particular monetary instrument, taken in conjunction with the Bank Rate, might

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    provide a more efficient and more acceptable method of regulating credit than by placing upon the banks the responsibility and the odium of reducing advances irrespective of the credit-worthiness of their clients?
    Sir E. Boyle: I assure my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend is, of course, watching the working of the banks' traditional practice in this respect.
    Mr. Jay: But has not the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. D. Price) made a constructive suggestion which is well worthy of examination?
    Sir E. Boyle: I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman.

    Personal Incomes (Purchasing Power)
    Mr. John Hallasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer his estimate of the gross salary which, in 1938, would have given a married man with two children the same purchasing value, after tax, as he receives today from a gross salary of£2,000 and £3,000, respectively.
    Mr. H. Brooke: About £633 and £859 respectively.
    Mr. Hall: Does my right hon. Friend think it right to impose additional taxation in the form of Surtax on a purchasing value of £633?
    Mr. Brooke: My hon. Friend is calling attention to the heavy burden of present-day taxation. On that I could not agree with him more.
    Mr. John Hallasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what would be the gross earned incomes required today by a married man with two children to equal, after deduction of tax, the purchasing power of gross earned incomes in 1938 of £2,000 and of £3,000 per annum.
    Mr. H. Brooke: About £12,200 and £34,600 respectively.
    Mr. Hall: Is not this an apt illustration of the old saying that "The higher you go the fewer," and does not this act as a great discouragement to men and women who find that as they progress in their professions their standard of living falls?
    Mr. Brooke: I think that what my hon. Friend says is perfectly true.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Since the right hon. Gentleman has seemed to deplore the high level of taxation in his answers to the last two supplementary questions, does not he recall that throughout the debates on the Finance Bill before Christmas his one complaint was whenever he found a yawning gap of anything that was not being taxed?
    Mr. Brooke: I well remember the yawning gaps, but on those occasions we were discussing furniture and pots and pans, not salaries in four figures.
    Mr. John Hallasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what salary he would need today to equal in purchasing power, after tax, the salary enjoyed by the holder of his office in 1938.
    Mr. H. Brooke: About £75,000.
    Mr. Hall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am almost overwhelmed by that figure? May I ask him if he thinks that the holders of the august office of Chancellor of the Exchequer before 1938 were overpaid or, alternatively, does he think that the duties and responsibilities of that office have lightened since 1938? If not, will he say when he proposes to take such measures as may be necessary to increase the salaries of the Chancellor and other Ministers, and especially junior Ministers? Is he aware that, although it may be less difficult to become a junior Minister than a bummaree, a bummaree is probably very much better off?
    Mr. Brooke: I can scarcely answer all my hon. Friend's questions, but I think that the original Question has called attention to how hard it is, with present-day penal rates of taxation on large incomes, to remunerate adequately men in any walk of life who carry great responsibilities.
    Mr. Jay: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the corresponding figures for the ordinary, humble back-bencher?
    Mr. Brooke: Not without notice.
    Mr. Ede: Is the Answer based on the assumption that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his wife have no private income of their own?
    Mr. Brooke: Yes, that is the assumption.

    Income Tax
    Mr. Crouchasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many Income Tax payers are over 85 years of age.
    Mr. H. Brooke: I regret this information is not available.
    Mr. Crouch: Will my right hon. Friend endeavour to get this information with a view to giving people over 85 years of age a few hundred pounds a year tax-free, in view of the diminished purchasing value of the money on which they retire?
    Dame Irene Ward: My hon. Friend should not commit himself to 85.
    Mr. Brooke: The difficulty in meeting my hon. Friend's suggestion is that it would mean putting yet one more question to Income Tax payers, and that I am reluctant to do.
    Mr. Jenningsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in preparing his forthcoming Budget, he will consider relieving clergy from the payment of Income Tax on Easter offerings.
    Mr. H. Brooke: My hon. Friend will not expect me to anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.
    Mr. Jennings: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this Question is a hardy annual? [An HON. MEMBER: "So is the Answer."] Is he further aware that clergymen of all denominations have suffered as much as anyone from the ill effects of post-war inflation, that they have not had the advantage of regular increases of stipend and that this concession would be one way in which the Treasury could offset the hardship which is well known to everybody?
    Mr. Brooke: I have the deepest sympathy with the clergy of all denominations in facing their financial difficulties at the present time, but on this matter I cannot at present add anything to what has been said by representatives of successive Governments in the House in past years.
    Mr. Pargiterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer by what authority the Inland Revenue Department is anticipating the will of Parliament in Pay-As-You-Earn calculations.
    Mr. H. Brooke: If the hon. Member will let me know precisely what he has in mind, I will gladly look into the matter.
    Mr. Pargiter: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in my constituency the Inland Revenue authorities are calculating for P.A.Y.E. purposes teachers' contributions towards pensions at 6 per cent., a matter which has not yet received the assent of Parliament? Would the right hon. Gentleman not regard that as a breach of Parliamentary Privilege?
    Mr. Brooke: I think that the hon. Member will forgive me for not having deduced from the terms of his Question precisely what he had in mind. Now that I have, I will certainly look into the matter.
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider freeing from liability for tax all insurance benefits and making all contributions for the Insurance Fund liable to tax thus ensuring that the contributors not liable for Income Tax do not pay more for their benefits than those paying tax.
    Mr. H. Brooke: My hon. Friend will not expect me to anticipate my right hon. Friend's Budget statement.
    Dame Irene Ward: Would my right hon. Friend intimate to the Chancellor that the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), as well as the hon. Member for Tynemouth, has put forward this proposal, and in view of the fact that there is apparent agreement on both sides of the House, what an excellent opportunity this would be to make some progress?
    Mr. Brooke: If I understand my hon. Friend's proposal aright, it would considerably increase the Revenue and the net amount taken from taxpayers. Questions of that sort must be matters for the Budget.

    Post-war Credits
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in trying to find some solution of the problem of repaying postwar credits in cases of hardship, he will bear in mind the advantages of converting, at any rate, certain classes of post-war credits into a special issue of National Savings certificates.
    Mr. H. Brooke: My right hon. Friend is willing to consider any suggestion which may be put to him on the release of postwar credits. I am not sure whether the hon. Member has in mind that the certificates suggested should be immediately encashable.
    Mr. Fletcher: Will the Financial Secretary bear in mind that there is a widespread sense of injustice at the Government's failure to repay post-war credits in cases of hardship? If repayable Savings certificates were given in cases of hardship, that would go a long way to remove any risk of inflationary pressure.
    Mr. Brooke: I have explained to the House on several occasions the difficulty of defining hardship so as to do justice between one case and another. If we were to give to certain classes of people certificates which could immediately be turned into cash, there would be no difference between that and giving them the cash direct.
    Mr. Hunterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of postwar credits owing to persons aged 60 years to 65 years.
    Mr. H. Brooke: About £80 million.
    Mr. Hunter: Will the right hon. Gentleman not consider paying out this money to these age groups? Is he aware that there is a feeling in the country that these people have been treated very unfairly? I hope that he will look at this suggestion.
    Mr. Brooke: I said in reply to a previous Question that the Chancellor would consider any suggestion made to him but this, of course, is a matter which could only be dealt with in a Budget. Therefore, I can say no more by way of forecasting what conclusion my right hon. Friend may reach.

    Civil Servants (Efficiency)
    Mr. D. Priceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) the total number of people employed in the Civil Service; and how many of them have been specially trained in techniques of modern scientific management and especially in work study;
    (2) the total number of civil servants engaged full-time on the application of work study and on other recognised
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    techniques for improving administrative, productive and clerical efficiency; and what percentage of the total Civil Service they constitute.
    Mr. H. Brooke: There are about 650 civil servants engaged whole time on Organisation and Methods, work study, and similar techniques. In addition, there are a large number of others who have been given special training and experience in this field. There are about 636,000 non-industrial and about 420,000 industrial civil servants.
    Mr. Price: Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will press ahead with this policy of training civil servants in work study? If his right hon. Friend's injunction to increase productivity is to have any meaning, must not the Civil Service show a better example than it has shown so far?
    Mr. Brooke: My hon. Friend is being unfair to the Civil Service. In fact, in the matter of Organisation and Methods, the Civil Service has led the whole country. I am very proud of the Organisation and Methods Branch of the Treasury, which, I think, is unequalled elsewhere.
    Mr. Hynd: Is the Financial Secretary aware that most civil servants do not enjoy a five-day week, and that most of them are at work on Saturday mornings, when most businessmen are on the golf course?
    Mr. Brooke: This is not a question relating to the whole of the Civil Service. I took it that my hon. Friend was asking what we did about O. and M. and work study, and I said that I was very proud of our record in that respect.

    Prices, Profits and Wages
    Lieut-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will issue a White Paper setting out the policy of Her Majesty's Government in relation to prices, profits and wages
    Sir E. Boyle: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Moyle) on 24th January.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: That did not answer anything. Is it not a fact that the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to publish a White Paper on this

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    subject last year? Why has that intention been scrapped by his successor, the present Chancellor, and when are we to be told something about the Government's intention, if they have any at all?
    Sir E. Boyle: I cannot add to my original Answer.
    Mr. Jay: Is the present Chancellor's refusal to publish the White Paper prepared by the previous Chancellor due to the fact that he disagrees with the previous Chancellor's policy or are we to have it published in the Economic Survey?
    Sir E. Boyle: The right hon. Gentleman is quite misinformed if he thinks there is any dissension between successive Chancellors of the Exchequer.

    Nelson Estates Act, 1947
    Lieut-Colonel Bromley-Davenportasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider introducing legislation to revoke or amend the Nelson Estates Act, 1947, which has the effect of confiscating the annuity payable to the heirs of Admiral Lord Nelson.
    Mr. H. Brooke: Lord Nelson recently sent my right hon. Friend a memorandum about this which is being studied.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley - Davenport: While no one expects pensions of this nature to go on for ever, was not this act of confiscation described by our right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) at the time as stealing £5,000 a year from Lord Nelson? Why cannot we remedy this injustice by paying a lump sum, as was done in the case of the Duke of Wellington, the Duke of Marlborough, Lord Rodney and other national heroes? Surely, the heirs to Lord Nelson deserve similar fair treatment, however distant they may be.
    Mr. Brooke: As I have said, the memorandum is in the hands of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and, I think, in the hands of other hon. and right hon. Members. I cannot prejudge the outcome of my right hon. Friend's consideration of it.
    Mr. Bottomley: Is it suggested that this noble Lord should receive better treatment than the victors in the last war—Lord Montgomery, Lord Tedder and Lord Cunningham?
    Mr. Brooke: I can say nothing further on this subject except that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is examining the memorandum he has received.
    Mr. Kershaw: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many who think that if the State or anyone else enters into a solemn contract with someone, they should keep to it or pay proper compensation?
    Mr. Ede: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take into account the fact that the nation failed to meet the request made by Lord Nelson that his lineal descendants should be looked after?

    Cost of Living
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the cost of living has risen by 20 per cent. since 1951; and if he will arrange for the issue of a White Paper setting out the main causes of this increase.
    Sir E. Boyle: I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Lee) on 26th January.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: That Answer also did not convey anything. Will the Economic Secretary take note that since 1951 the cost of living in this country has gone up by 20 per cent., which is seven times as great as the increase in the cost of living in Western Germany, Canada, and the United States? Will he not at least look at the question to see how these other countries have managed to keep the increase in the cost of living so much less than the Government of this country have done?
    Sir E. Boyle: The Answer to which I have referred did, in fact, convey a good deal of information. I hope the hon. and gallant Member will not forget the very considerable long-term effects of devaluation on the price level of this country.

    Small Fixed Income Groups
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having introduced the Pensions (Increase) Bill, he will proceed to formulate proposals for assisting those living on small fixed incomes who do not benefit under this Bill.
    Mr. H. Brooke: It is impossible to frame proposals on the lines of those in the Pensions (Increase) Bill which would meet the varying circumstances of all those whom the hon. Lady has in mind. In the Adjournment debate on 5th December I explained the measures already taken by the Government, and we shall be ready to consider any concrete suggestions which the hon. Lady wishes to make.
    Dame Irene Ward: Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for a small step forward in the case of people covered by the Pensions (Increase) Bill, may I ask whether he will bear in mind that the Prime Minister is committed up to the hilt to help these people as a result of his speech in Bradford? Is my right hon. Friend aware that I think nothing at all of his Answer, which I consider to be a breach of trust?
    Mr. Brooke: I am grateful, at any rate, to my hon. Friend for the appreciation she has expressed of the Pensions (Increase) Bill.
    Dame Irene Ward: Just a little.
    Mr. Brooke: The problem of helping those who are not pensioners and who have been freed by this Government from liability to Income Tax is a very difficult one indeed. I am sure that the best thing that we can do for them is to stabilise the £.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Since it is obvious that the right hon. Gentleman did not show anything like as much sympathy and warmth of feeling in relation to those who are living on small fixed incomes as he did to the higher Surtax payers a few minutes ago, may I ask whether he will inform the House whether the statement of the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer at the Tory Party Conference in Bournemouth last year—that the first priority will be given to those living on small fixed incomes—represents the policy of the Government today? Will the present Chancellor take action where his predecessor did not?
    Mr. Brooke: The right hon. Gentleman will recall that a few minutes ago I expressed the greatest sympathy with one class living on small fixed incomes, that is, the clergy. That sympathy extends to all those who live on small fixed incomes. The care of them is a very high priority
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    in the Government's programme. I pointed out the difficulties, and I also indicated what is the greatest hope for them
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the fact that the Central Electricity Authority has given a further option to ex-employees to join the pension scheme even though they had previously exercised a choice for the pre-nationalisation scheme, if he will, in order to help the small fixed income groups, make inquiries among all Government pension schemes, including the Health Service, with a view to introducing improved pensions over the widest field.
    Mr. H. Brooke: In reply to the first part of the Question, I understand that the option has been offered to serving employees, but not to pensioners. In reply to the second part, no revision of the Superannuation Acts or the other public service schemes is contemplated. My hon. Friend will be aware of the Government's proposals under the Pensions (Increase) Bill to pay increases to many existing pensioners, including those of the National Health Service.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is my right hon. Friend aware that he is wrong? Here is a concrete proposal, for which he has asked. Therefore, will he please tell us in specific terms what was meant by the Prime Minister's speech about the small fixed income groups who have no one to argue for them in the same kind of way as have the big battalions?
    Mr. Brooke: I admire immensely the sustained vigour of my hon. Friend's advocacy of further help for those who are living on small fixed incomes. I regret to say that in answer to this Question, which is of a narrow character, I cannot make a statement about the Prime Minister's intentions. As my hon. Friend will recognise, I dealt with most of this Question during a debate on the Motion for the Adjournment just before Christmas.

    Industrial Investment
    Mr. Jayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the policy of the Government in relation to the encouragement or discouragement of industrial investment at the present time.
    Sir E. Boyle: The Government have consistently recognised the need for a high level of investment in productive industry, both public and private, if we are to achieve a rising standard of living and if Britain is to pay her way in increasingly competitive world markets. Nevertheless at present, the very rapid upsurge in investment is a major cause of the excess of total demand on our resources. It was for this reason that my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, when he introduced his Budget proposals on 26th October—OFFICIAL REPORT, column 220—stated that he hoped that all those concerned with investment programmes would enforce a stricter order of priority and move more slowly for the time being.
    Mr. Jay: As the Government at present are discouraging industrial investment by their dear money policy and encouraging it by means of the investment allowance, and as both these operations cost a lot of public money, would the Government not make up their mind more clearly than is indicated in that answer as to which they want to do, and so make a saving on one side or the other?
    Sir E. Boyle: The right hon. Gentleman asked about the objectives of Government policy and I tried to give a full and explicit answer on that point.
    Mr. Albu: Will the hon. Gentleman say what is the Government's attitude towards the present expansion of the finance of the motor car industry in view of the fact that it failed to expand its exports last year?
    Sir E. Boyle: Perhaps the hon. Member will put a Question on the Order Paper on that point.

    Hire Purchase
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will permit the Electrical Contractors Association to form a hire-purchase finance company so as to enable their members to compete more fairly with the Central Electricity Board.
    Sir E. Boyle: My right hon. Friend would not be disposed to consent to any proposal for expanding finance for hire purchase at the present time.

    Shilling Coins
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of a shortage of shillings for slot meters and other purposes in the south-east of Scotland; and if he will take steps to meet this situation.
    Mr. H. Brooke: The Royal Mint supplies coins in the quantities and denominations asked for by the banks. In this case the Royal Mint, on the appearance of Press reports of a shortage of shillings in the Edinburgh area, consulted the Scottish banks. As a result, 2,844,000 shillings have been sent to these banks since 2nd January. A further 970,000 will be sent next week.
    Major Anstruther-Gray: I thank my right hon. Friend very much.
    Mrs. Mann: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that this shortage does not exist merely in Scotland but that the Scots in London are experiencing a great shortage of shillings? Is he aware that because of the shortage of shillings Scots in London have to give a tip of 2s., which is a great hardship on the Scots?
    Mr. Brooke: I appreciate the hon. Lady's hardship. It makes me all the more surprised that she refrained from putting that supplementary question to me last week about Members' salaries.

    Imperial College of Science and Technology (Expansion)
    Mr. Albuasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Her Majesty's Government have now come to a decision or the proposed plan for the building of an enlarged Imperial College of Science and Technology on the island site in South Kensington, approval of which was given in principle in 1953.
    Mr. H. Brooke: The Government have decided, in view of the overriding need to increase the country's output of scientists and technologists, to adhere to the scale of development for Imperial College which was announced to Parliament on 29th January, 1953.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Can the Minister give an assurance that the same policy will be applied to the rest of the country?
    Mr. Brooke: Perhaps the hon. Member will put a Question on the Order Paper on that point.
    Mr. N. Pannell: May we have an assurance that in implementing this scheme no steps will be taken to demolish the tower of the Imperial Institute until the House has had the opportunity of considering the matter?
    Mr. Brooke: There is a Question for Written Answer addressed to me bearing on the aesthetic aspect of this whole matter. My hon. Friend may like first to study my Answer to that Question and then perhaps pursue the matter further.

  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Consumption
    Mr. Russellasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the consumption of food in Britain in 1955 compared with that of previous years.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. D. Heathcoat Amory): Estimates of food consumption in 1955 are not yet available. Present indications are that consumption generally reached a slightly higher level than in 1954, when the average consumption in terms of calories, proteins and fats already exceeded the pre-war levels.
    Mr. Russell: Does not that Answer show that people were eating more in 1955 than in previous years, despite the increase in the cost of living?
    Mrs. Braddock: Which people?
    Mr. Amory: Yes, my hon. Friend is quite right. The present position is that in spite of the rise in prices, the nation generally—and this covers a wide cross-section of the country—is eating more than ever before, and is eating more varied food of better quality.

    Inshore Fishermen (Costs and Earnings)
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he has now received sufficient information regarding the costing of inshore fishermen to allow an increase in the white fish subsidy as it affects this branch of the industry.
    Mr. Amory: Arrangements have been made with the representative organisations of the inshore fishermen to collect before Easter additional information on costs and earnings, and in accordance with the undertakings given in the debate on 19th December the data collected will be taken into account in the framing of the subsidy proposals to be laid before the House in respect of the period beginning 1st August next.

    Fisheries Convention
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether an international inspection force has yet been established to ensure enforcement and uniformity in penalty for infringement of the North Sea and International Fisheries Convention; and if he will make a statement on its work since its establishment.
    Mr. Amory: No, Sir, but the Permanent Commission administering the Convention is appointing an officer to advise member countries upon request with regard to the enforcement of the Convention.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister realise that a Convention such as this is useless unless it is rigorously enforced, and that that is not being done? Will he make a fuller statement on the subject, as I asked him to do in the Question?
    Mr. Amory: I agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman that the value of the Convention depends on the effective enforcement of the Regulations. He will remember, however, that thirteen nations are members of the Convention, and it is by no means easy to get agreement between them. Her Majesty's Government have taken consistently, and are taking today, a leading part in pressing forward still more effective conservation measures.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that the existing North Sea and International Fisheries Convention, 1946, has proved to be insufficient for the purposes intended; and if he will take steps to achieve and implement a new convention which will implement the purposes intended.
    Mr. Amory: The United Kingdom has already made proposals to the member

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    countries for a new Convention making wider provision for conservation measures, and discussions are in progress.
    Mr. Hughes: When will that new Convention meet, what steps have been taken, who will attend it, and when will something be done to deal with the failures which have characterised the work up to the present?
    Mr. Amory: I am afraid that these things take a long time. When agreement has been obtained—if it is obtained—for widening the Convention, that agreement will still require ratification by all the separate countries concerned.

    North Sea (Fish Stocks and Catches)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware of the concern in the fishing industry and in the scientific bodies who study fisheries at the diminishing average sizes of commercial fish now being caught in the North Sea; at the diminishing average catch per unit of fishing per individual fishing day; at the diminishing annual yield for the whole area of the North Sea; and what steps he is taking to focus international attention on and to solve these problems.
    Mr. Amory: There has been no marked decrease over the past six years in total catch, catch per unit effort or average size of fish landed for most species of fish caught in the North Sea. The hon. and learned Member can rest assured that Her Majesty's Government take a leading part in the work of the international organisations concerned with the conservation of the fish stocks in the North Sea.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister realise that not only the fishing industry but consumers also are tired of being told that Her Majesty's Government are taking a leading part in these matters, when nothing is being done? Will the right hon. Gentleman specify what is being done and when the terrible facts indicated in the Question will be seriously dealt with?
    Mr. Amory: I am afraid I cannot agree with the conclusion of the hon. and learned Gentleman that nothing is being done. If he reads my Answer he will see that some of the implications made in his Question are not borne out by the facts.

    Slaughter of Animals
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on how many occasions in 1955 veterinary officers of his Department visited slaughterhouses or knackers' yards at which horses were being slaughtered; whether in all cases the provisions of the Slaughter of Animals (Amendment) Act, 1954, were being fully complied with; and what action was taken in regard to infringements of that Act.
    Mr. Amory: Such visits were made by officers of my Department on fifty-four occasions. In a number of cases the provisions of the Regulations made under the Act were not being fully complied with, and the infringements were brought to the notice of the local authorities responsible.
    Mr. Johnson: May I ask my right hon. Friend if he is aware that, whereas there is a considerable improvement, it is largely in connection with lairage that the provisions of the Act are not being complied with, and is it possible for him to take any action other than to refer the matter to the local authority?
    Mr. Amory: No. I will take account of what my hon. Friend says about lairage, but if my inspectors find infringements it is my duty to call the attention of the local authorities concerned to them. I have no reason to think that, when I have done so, appropriate action will not be taken.
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware of the concern which is widely felt because the electric stunning of pigs is often incorrectly carried out; and if he will take steps to ensure greater supervision, proper training of slaughtermen, the installation of a voltmeter in all slaughterhouses where pigs are electrically stunned and the provision of smaller enclosures so that pigs cannot run about before being stunned.
    Mr. Amory: I am not aware of any general concern about this matter; but I am anxious to do all I can to ensure humane slaughtering, and I will consider my hon. Friend's suggestions with this in mind.
    Mr. Johnson: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that in some cases the tongs by which this stunning is

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    carried out are applied in the wrong place—behind the pig's ear instead of in front of it—with the result that the pig is paralysed but not stunned, and though it cannot move, it can feel pain? Will my right hon. Friend look into this matter?
    Mr. Amory: I have had no representations made to me on this point, but I will bear in mind what has been said by my hon. Friend and make inquiries.

    Seals, Farne Island
    Major Anstruther-Grayasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he has now received a report on the Farne Island seals from the Nature Conservancy; and whether, in the light of this and his own investigations into the damage done by those seals to fishing interests, he will make a statement.
    Mr. Amory: The Report reached my Department yesterday and I shall, of course, examine it without delay.
    Major Anstruther-Gray: In doing so, may I ask my right hon. Friend to bear in mind that the breeding population of these seals in the Farne Islands has increased more than eight times since the pre-war count, and that the position is urgent because they cause a great deal of damage to fishing interests?
    Mr. Amory: I will certainly bear in mind the point made by my hon. and gallant Friend.

    Willow Holme Weir, Carlisle
    Dr. D. Johnsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the result of his Department's inspection of the Willow Holme Weir on the River Eden at Carlisle; if he is satisfied that sea-trout and herling can pass this weir up the river at summer level of water; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Amory: The inspection was carried out at the request of the Cumberland River Board. The inspectors reported that Willow Holme Weir does not prevent the passage of sea-trout and herling up the river even when the water-level is low. I understand that the board is not contemplating further action.
    Dr. Johnson: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, in view of the jagged stones of which this weir is constructed, he
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    will at least give some weight to the complaint that trout are injured on their way up the river when the water is low?
    Mr. Amory: I would say to my hon. Friend that the responsibility in this matter really falls on the river board and not on me. I only came into this because my inspectors were asked to give advice on the point.

    Tea Prices
    Mr. Remnantasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the average retail price of Indian tea compares with that ruling a year ago; and the corresponding London auction prices.
    Mr. Amory: Packeted teas normally consist of a blend of Indian and other tea. The average retail price per 1b. is now about 6s. 6d. compared with about 7s. 6d. a year ago. The average price per 1b. for all teas sold at London Auctions last week was 4s. 4d. and 6s. 11d. a year ago, and for Indian teas 4s. 2d. and 6s. 10¼d. respectively.
    Mr. Remnant: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate how this reduction is welcomed by everybody, whether connected with the trade or outside it? Also, does he not think that a meed of praise should be given to wholesalers and blenders for holding a balance between the excessively high prices of 1954 and, in many cases, the low ones at auctions now?
    Mr. Amory: I will always give a meed of praise whenever the price is moving downwards in the way that it is at present.
    Mr. Willey: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this welcome decrease is generally attributed to the action which we on this side of the House took, and to the action taken by the Prime Minister of Ceylon, which was not supported by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how these retail prices compare with those which obtained under a Labour Government?
    Mr. Amory: I am willing to give my meed of praise to anybody, including the hon. Gentleman, when the situation is as satisfactory as it is today.

    Sugar Production
    Mr. Crouchasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the amount of sugar produced from the 1955 harvest and its value.
    Mr. Amory: About 665,000 tons in terms of raw sugar, valued at about £35 million before payment of duty.
    Mr. Crouch: May I ask my right hon. Friend how this figure compares with the previous year, and how it compares with the average for the previous two or three years?
    Mr. Amory: The comparable figure for 1954—that is the previous year—was 624,300 tons, so that it is rather higher this year. I am sorry that I have not got the average figures with me, but if my hon. Friend cares to put down a Question, I will give them to him.
    Mr. Willey: Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House what are the intentions of Her Majesty's Government about the Sugar Bill?
    Mr. Amory: The intention of Her Majesty's Government is to proceed with the Committee stage and, finally, to bring the Bill back to this House.
    Mr. Willey: Has his Joint Parliamentary Secretary informed the right hon. Gentleman of what happened this morning, and in view of that, is he aware of the feeling in the Committee that if the Government back benchers are not prepared to support the Government on this matter then the Government ought to withdraw the Bill?
    Mr. Amory: What the hon. Gentleman has said is not in any way difficult to reconcile with what I have said, but I would suggest that it does not arise on the Question.
    Major Anstruther-Gray: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for this House to take cognisance of what has happened upstairs in a Committee when the Committee has not reported the matter to this House?
    Mr. Speaker: It is the first I have heard of this matter. If the Minutes of the Committee or the OFFICIAL REPORT of the proceedings in the Committee have been circulated to hon. Members, it would
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    be in order, but if that is not the case it is not in order to refer to the proceedings in the Committee.

    Fowl Typhoid
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps are being taken to deal with fowl typhoid, which is causing losses to farmers in Wales and certain other parts of the country.
    Mr. Amory: My veterinary officers have been carrying out an investigation into this disease to obtain more information about its behaviour and control and to study the possibility of using a vaccine. So far, vaccination has given disappointing results but encouraging progress has been made with a drug which can be added to the food. Further trials are in progress. Research into other methods of controlling the disease is being conducted at my Department's veterinary laboratories.
    Mrs. White: Is the Minister aware that this disease is spreading very rapidly indeed in parts of Flintshire and adjacent areas of Cheshire and Shropshire and that more than 16,000 birds were affected in one district in Fintshire alone last year? Will he make it a notifiable disease, because if that is not done, there is no control on the movement of diseased birds?
    Mr. Amory: I will certainly take into consideration what the hon. Lady says, but there are difficulties in making it a notifiable disease, because the symptoms, I am advised, are extremely difficult to recognise. However, I am anxious about the situation, and I will do everything I can to assist.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: I am afraid that I did not hear the supplementary question. Is fowl pest a notifiable disease, and, if not, will the Minister so make it?
    Mr. Amory: The disease to which the Question refers is fowl typhoid.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: I beg my right hon. Friend's pardon. I am sorry, I meant fowl typhoid.

    Slaughterhouses
    Mr. Peytonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he expects to be able to make a statement on future slaughterhouse policy.
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress has been made in considering the problem of the siting of slaughterhouses.
    Mr. Amory: I hope to be able to make a statement shortly after Easter.
    Mr. Peyton: I appreciate the complexity of this matter, but does my right hon. Friend realise how eagerly awaited this statement is, and will he do his best to make it as full as possible?
    Mr. Amory: I do indeed.

    Pig Marketing
    Mr. Peytonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he expects to receive a report on pig marketing from the Reorganisation Commission.
    Mr. Amory: I understand that the Commission has largely completed the hearing of evidence from interested organisations in the United Kingdom. It is too early to forecast when its Report can be presented.
    Mr. Peyton: Does my right hon. Friend realise that this will be very good news to large numbers of the agricultural community who hope that he will then consider himself free to decide upon the desirability of a comprehensive marketing scheme for pigs—both pork and bacon?
    Mr. Amory: I do think that the inquiry which is taking place is very important, and I am very much looking forward to receiving the Report.

    Milk Production Bonus
    Mr. Vaneasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether his attention has been drawn to the decision of the Milk Marketing Board to discontinue the payment of a production bonus; whether he is aware that this decision will discourage the expansion of production on many small marginal farms; and what measures he intends to take to counterbalance this loss of production.
    Mr. Amory: I am aware of the decision of the Milk Marketing Board to abolish the milk production bonus between now and March, 1958. The bonus is paid out of the Board's funds, the distribution of which to its members is a matter within
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    the discretion of the Board. I have no reason to think that the withdrawal of the bonus will have a significant effect on milk production in England and Wales.
    Mr. Vane: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the production of milk is often the key to expanding production on many small, marginal farms, and that the withdrawal of this bonus is bound in the end to discourage many of these small farmers? Will he try, in the Price Review, to see whether it is not possible to do something to help those small farmers on poor land on whom we depend for so much?
    Mr. Amory: I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.

    Meat Distribution
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will investigate the present arrangements for the distribution of meat with a view to economies being achieved which will reduce the price.
    Mr. Amory: I am not contemplating such an investigation.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Is there not a case for an investigation into the conditions at Smithfield Market? Have not the bummarees and porters there a monopoly of labour which they are abusing by preventing butchers from carrying away their own meat? Do not these activities uphold the cost of living?
    Mr. Amory: Regarding the position in Smithfield Market, I understand that discussions are proceeding between the Corporation of the City of London and the Market Tenants' Association.
    Mr. G. Brown: Is not the Minister aware that, far from there being a monopoly by the bummarees, this is a licensing system operated by the City of London, by agreement between the employers and the workers in the market, and that any intervention would be an intervention into a public licensing arrangement made after a proper agreement? Will not the Minister say that he defends the existing situation?
    Mr. Amory: No, I think that I will restrict myself to the Answer that I have already given.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the observations of my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) apply with equal force to Covent Garden?
    Mr. Brown: May I ask the Minister whether he will confirm that, far from there being a monopoly as is alleged, this in an arrangement, operated by the City Corporation, to which the butchers and the workers are both parties? Will the Minister confirm that that is so, and that the position is quite contrary to that stated by his hon. Friend?
    Mr. Amory: I have nothing to add to what I have already said.

    National Egg Packers Association (Negotiations)
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement on his negotiations with the National Egg Packers Association.
    Mr. Amory: It would not be appropriate for me to make a statement while the negotiations are still in progress.
    Mr. Willey: Would it be appropriate for the right hon. Gentleman to say that he is making as expeditious progress as possible? How much longer is he to be stigmatised by the Comptroller and Auditor General on the lack of administration by his Department?
    Mr. Amory: I hope that the negotiations will be completed shortly.

    Chewing Gum
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what substances are at present prescribed by his regulations for use in the manufacture of chewing gum to prevent it becoming stale.
    Mr. Amory: None, Sir.
    Dr. Stross: Does that mean that any substance of any type may be used as an anti-staling agent in chewing gum at present, and if so, is the Minister aware that some of them are suspected of being thoroughly unhealthy and bad for people and indeed at times carcinogenic?
    Mr. Amory: I do not think it means that at all, but that I have not prescribed by regulation any particular material that
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    shall be used. I understand that no chemical preservative is added to chewing gum manufactured in this country.
    Mr. E. Fletcher: Does the answer of the Minister mean that it is not his policy to prevent chewing gum from going stale?
    Mr. Amory: I am not quite sure what my policy is in this respect. I think that, within limits, the longer the gum lasts, the better.

    Mineral Oil (Baking Industry)
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he has taken to regulate the use of mineral oil in the baking industry; and to what extent this substance is being replaced by oils of vegetable origin.
    Mr. Amory: The use of mineral oil in the baking industry is restricted by the provisions of the Mineral Oil in Food Order. I understand that mineral oil is used by the industry for greasing or lubricating equipment, and I have no evidence that it is being replaced for these purposes by vegetable oils.
    Dr. Stross: Does not the Minister recollect that about a year ago, when this matter was discussed in the House, we were given assurances that attempts were being made, experiments were being carried out, and that it was hoped to replace mineral oils by oils of a vegetable origin? Can he say what is his attitude towards this matter?
    Mr. Amory: As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is a limitation on the amount that can be used—two parts in a thousand. I understand that the problem of switching to vegetable oils is one of rancidity. I have no evidence that substantial progress has been made since we discussed this matter in the House.

    Pigs
    Mr. Dyeasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the total cost in deficiency payments on pigs for each of the weeks ending 3rd and 10th December, 1955.
    Mr. Amory: The total payments under the guarantees for those weeks were £251,364 and £594,178 respectively.
    Mr. Dye: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that, in the circumstances, a greater part of this was nothing more than a bonus to people operating between the producer and the consumer, in view of the low market price and the high prices charged for pork during the Christmas season?
    Mr. Amory: I cannot follow the hon. Gentleman. The producers concerned have the safeguard of the basic guaranteed average price of 51s. 4d.
    Mr. Dye: Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember that the market price was exceptionally low during that week, for no apparent reason?
    Mr. Amory: The market price was low because the demand was low.
    Mr. Dyeasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the total number of home-produced pigs received for bacon manufacture during 1955.
    Mr. Amory: 4,436,000 home-produced pigs were used for bacon manufacture in the United Kingdom in 1955.
    Mr. Willey: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he is going to produce a sensible, logical marketing scheme for pigs and how much longer the producer and taxpayer alike are to suffer the losses which are being suffered at present?
    Mr. Amory: I do not think that arises on this Question, but I have already said that I am looking forward to the Report of the Reorganisation Commission.
    Lieut-Colonel Lipton: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the production of 4,400,000 pigs during 1955 is satisfactory? Does he think that is enough or should it have been less or more?
    Mr. Amory: It is almost identical with the production figure during the preceding year.

    SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Prime Minister if he will take administrative steps to co-ordinate the drive to produce more scientists and technicians, bearing in mind the present division of responsibility between the Treasury, the Lord President of the Council, the Minister of
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    Education, the University Grants Committee, and the Advisory Council for Scientific Policy.
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): I have been asked to reply.
    The contact between the various Departments which necessarily share responsibility for the development of scientific and technical education is already close and continuous. My right hon. Friend trusts that the White Paper on Technical Education which the Government hope shortly to publish will demonstrate that no administrative considerations will be allowed to stand in the way of a vigorous expansion of facilities for this purpose.
    Mr. Fletcher: May I take it from that that the Lord Privy Seal at any rate realises that if we are to make good the deplorable leeway that exists in technological advances between this country and Soviet Russia, a really vigorous drive in this field is required and that no administrative arrangements must be allowed to impede it?
    Mr. Butler: The Government have already indicated their interest in higher technological education by the remarkable developments which have been planned in that sphere. Those are now being followed up in this White Paper on technical education, and the hon. Member and the House may feel satisfied that the importance of this subject is fully understood by all my colleagues.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Can the Lord Privy Seal give an assurance that the White Paper will cover the whole subject of technical education, not only the training of expert scientists through the universities and technological institutes, but also technical training in the case of what is sometimes called the lower, less advanced levels?
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. The major emphasis in this case, for reasons connected with the university grants, will be on the point to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, but there will also be a portion of the White Paper referring to advances in the universities.
    Mr. Beswick: Can the Lord Privy Seal say, if administrative difficulties are being set aside, whether it is still proposed to call up for National Service engineers who have graduated from the institutes?
    Mr. Butler: That question should be put to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service.
    Mr. Usborne: Does the right hon. Gentleman fully appreciate that while scientists and technicians are extremely scarce, far too large a proportion is being attracted to and employed in Government establishments making atomic weapons and things like that?
    Mr. Butler: There is always this great difficulty in spacing out the supply of trained technicians and technologists, and I should like to investigate in detail the point put to me by the hon. Member.

    SAFETY IN THE HOME (MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY)
    Mrs. Mannasked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the divided responsibility for matters pertaining to accidents in the home, where the number of fatalities exceed those on the roads; and if he will appoint one Minister to be responsible for all aspects of safety in the home.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply.
    There has been in existence since 1946 a Standing Inter-Departmental Committee on Accidents in the Home, which my right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary assures my right hon. Friend is working satisfactorily.
    While I can assure the hon. Member of my right hon. Friend's personal interest in this matter, he would not be prepared to adopt the suggestion of appointing one Minister with special responsibility.
    Mrs. Mann: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister of Works, acting for the Inter-Departmental Committee, knows nothing at all about the matter and confessed that to me a week ago? Is he further aware that the said Inter-Departmental Committee is not meeting and that it does not even know the Minister to whom it is responsible? In view of the shocking tragedies in Great Britain every day, is it not time that the House awoke to its responsibility in the matter?
    Mr. Butler: I feel—and so does my right hon. Friend, to whom I mentioned the matter on his return—that the hon.
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    Lady's Question will have done something to excite interest in this matter. That is a good thing, and if she will accept my right hon. Friend's personal interest in the matter, I will see that it is followed up and special attention paid to the question to which the hon. Lady attaches such importance.

    HYDROGEN BOMB
    Mrs. Castleasked the Prime Minister what discussions he had with President Eisenhower as to the place and date of the explosion of the British hydrogen bomb.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply.
    My right hon. Friend has no statement to make on this subject.
    Mrs. Castle: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. Friend to give the House an assurance that when the time and place of the explosion of the British hydrogen bomb are decided the House will be the first to be informed? Can he say when that is likely to take place?
    Mr. Butler: As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has previously indicated, it would not be in the public interest to make any further statement on this topic.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Dock Labour Scheme (Committee's Report)
    Mr. Pageasked the Minister of Labour when he anticipates that he will receive the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Dock Labour Scheme.
    The Minister of Labour and National Service (Mr. Iain Macleod): The Committee of Inquiry into the Dock Labour Scheme is making good progress, but I cannot say when the Report will be available.

    Shipbuilding (Trade Unions)
    Mr. Pageasked the Minister of Labour whether he will appoint a committee to investigate and report upon the demarcation problems of the seventeen trade unions involved in shipbuilding in British shipyards.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: No, Sir. Difficulties arising from the demarcation of work between the various classes of craftsmen employed in the shipbuilding industry are essentially matters for settlement within the industry. Agreed forms of procedure for dealing with demarcation disputes are in existence, covering most of the unions in the industry, and many such disputes are in fact settled by negotiation.
    It is true that demarcation disputes do from time to time result in serious stoppages of work and loss of production, particularly where there is no recognised procedure. In general, however, the machinery which is in existence or is contemplated for settling these disputes should be adequate, given good will and readiness on the part of all concerned to seek an equitable solution by conciliatory means.
    Mr. Page: Have not the many Gilbertian situations which have arisen over demarcation issues, particularly in this industry, got beyond a joke and a private matter between employers and employees? Have not they become a public concern, and cannot the public have some say in the matter, through the Government?
    Mr. Macleod: Indeed they are a matter of public concern, and rightly so. I am suggesting that this matter is best left to the industry. There have been and there are going on discussions at the level of the national executive with some of the unions concerned with a view to improving the existing machinery, and I believe that considerable progress is being made.
    Mr. Lee: In these days of the substitution of one material for another on a very extensive scale, is it not a matter of congratulation to those concerned in the negotiating machinery of these industries that so few of these issues come in dispute?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, the vast number are settled reasonably and amicably. The number in shipbuilding that come officially to the notice of my Ministry is about ten a year.
    Mr. Wade: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that disputes such as that at Cammell Laird's have serious economic consequences, and are therefore matters of general public concern? Has
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    he considered the possibility of setting up special conciliation machinery to deal with this specific type of dispute?
    Mr. Macleod: We have been closely in touch with the Cammell Laird dispute since the beginning. I should very much like to see the end of the strike—as I am sure all hon. Members would—but the T.U.C. is concerned with it and everybody wishes it good fortune in trying to bring together the different unions.
    Mr. Hobson: Can the Minister state how many days were lost last year in demarcation disputes, apart from the Cammell Laird dispute?
    Mr. Macleod: Not without notice.

HUNTER AIRCRAFT (CRASHES)
Mr. George Wigg(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will make a statement on the circumstances which caused six Hunter aircraft to crash on Wednesday, 8th February, 1956.
The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Nigel Birch): Yesterday morning eight Hunter aircraft from the Central Fighter Establishment at West Raynham took off on an exercise. The exercise took place over the base. By the time the aircraft were due to return the weather had deteriorated and they were diverted to Marham. Two landed safely. A third overshot the runway and crashed beyond it. The fourth aircraft crashed near the airfield, and the pilot was killed. The pilots of the remaining four aircraft baled out and the aircraft crashed in open country. There were no civilian casualties.
A court of inquiry presided over by an air vice-marshal is already sitting.
I am sure that the House will wish to join with me in expressing sympathy with the relatives of the pilot who was killed.
Mr. Wigg: I should like to tender my respectful sympathy—as I am sure my right hon. and hon. Friends do—to the relatives of the young officer who lost his life. Will the Minister be prepared to make a public statement, compatible with security considerations, when the full details are brought to light? In addition, will he tell the House the marks of the

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Hunters used yesterday, especially bearing in mind the fact that there has always been a suspicion that Marks I and II are liable to be deficient in fuel if a crisis arises such as that of yesterday, when the G.C.A. apparently failed?
Mr. Birch: On the first point, most certainly. As soon as the report of the court of inquiry is received I shall certainly be prepared to make as full a statement as possible. The aircraft in question was a Mark I Hunter with an Avon engine—but I would point out that all modern fighter aircraft have quite short flying duration, and the difficulty is that the lower they get the higher is their fuel consumption.
Mr. Strachey: I join with my hon. Friend in expressing the sympathy of the House in connection with this terrible accident. Will the Secretary of State in due course answer the following questions: First, were the aircraft concerned those that have been modified in such a way as to reduce their fuel capacity? Even if they were, what is the explanation of their apparently having run out of fuel after twenty minutes? Had they been adequately fuelled when they took off?
Secondly, is the Minister satisfied that flying should have taken place in the weather conditions which were reported yesterday? Was that fair to the pilots of this type of aircraft?
Thirdly, will he inform us about the whole ground control system of the two airfields—both the airfield from which they flew off and that to which they were diverted, the reports from ground control having broken down altogether?
Fourthly—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] These are very important matters. I do not expect answers today. When the inquiry has taken place, the House will want to know in detail about these matters. There is increasing anxiety in the House at the apparent fact that the modifications which have taken place in the Hunter aircraft have not made it capable of flying effectively in the conditions of Service life.
Mr. Birch: As the right hon. Gentleman recognises, most of the questions
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which he has asked can be determined only by the inquiry. One question I will certainly answer straight away, because I specifically asked about it myself. There was no question of these aircraft taking off without a full load of fuel. All the aircraft had a full load.
Mr. Burden: Hon. Members on this side of the House join the Minister and hon. Members opposite in expressing sympathy with those who suffered death or injury as a result of this accident. There is one feature which, it appears, ought to be looked into. The Minister has stated that these aircraft were operating over base. If so, it seems extraordinary that the deterioration in the weather conditions, which were suitable when they took off, were not evident to those who were controlling the aircraft from the ground, so that they could issue a word of warning in time for the aircraft either to land at base before the deterioration was too great for them to do so, or to go elsewhere.
Mr. Birch: When I make my statement we can deal fully with that question. It has to be determined by the court of inquiry.
Mr. Shinwell: I agree that many of the questions which have been asked of the right hon. Gentleman must obviously be the subject of inquiry, but does not he agree that in order to remove the disquiet which exists in certain quarters about the Hunter machine—especially the engines which are operating in the various types—it would be advisable, always consistent with security, that as full a statement as possible should be made to the House in due course?
Mr. Birch: I quite agree about that, but there is no question of this accident being caused by engine failure. The fact is that during the last calendar year the accident rate in the Royal Air Force has been extraordinarily favourable—and also favourable in regard to Hunter aircraft. There is no question of there having been a lot of accidents in Hunters.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: The House had better await the result of the inquiry. It is premature to pursue this subject now.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he will state the business for next week?
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 13TH FEBRUARY—Second Reading of the Charles Beattie Indemnity Bill, and, if agreeable to the House, the Committee and remaining stages.
Second Reading of the Administration of Justice Bill [Lords.]
Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Committee stage of the Local Authorities (Expenses) Money Resolution.
Committee and remaining stages of the Therapeutic Substances Bill [Lords,] which is a consolidation Measure.
Committee and remaining stages of the Police (Scotland) Bill [Lords,] which is largely a consolidation Measure.
Consideration of the Motion to approve the Draft Local Authorities (Stock) Regulations.
TUESDAY, 14TH FEBRUARY—Report stage of the Housing Subsidies Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 15TH FEBRUARY—Conclusion of the Report stage of the Housing Subsidies Bill, if not already concluded, and Third Reading.
THURSDAY, 16TH FEBRUARY—A debate will take place on Capital Punishment, which will arise on a Motion to be tabled by the Government.
FRIDAY, 17TH FEBRUARY—Consideration of Private Members' Bills.
I should like to inform the House that since the Second Reading debate on the House of Commons Disqualification Bill we have been considering the best manner of proceeding with this Measure, and have come to the conclusion that, in view of its complexity, it would be appropriate to commit the Bill to a Select Committee. The problem of disqualification is a difficult one, and I hope that the course proposed will commend itself to the House. The necessary Motion will be tabled in due course.
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal, first, when the Government Motion on capital punishment will be tabled? Secondly, can he give us an assurance that the debate will be open to a free vote?
Mr. Butler: We hope to table the Motion as soon as possible—if not tonight, then tomorrow. The debate will be open to a free vote.
Mr. Gaitskell: Will the Prime Minister—whom we welcome back from Washington—be making a statement upon his discussions there and in Ottawa, and, if so, when? Further, is the Lord Privy Seal aware that we are very anxious to have a debate upon the economic situation at the earliest opportunity?
Mr. Butler: I am sure that all my right hon. and hon. Friends support the right hon. Gentleman in welcoming back my right hon. Friend from his extremely successful trip to the North American continent. He did not arrive back in time to make a statement today, but he hopes to make a statement to the House on Monday, if that is convenient to hon. Members.
I realise that the Opposition have made two special requests, one for a debate on capital punishment and the other for a debate on the economic situation. In view of the interest shown by the House in the latter subject, we shall certainly also try to make arrangements to meet that request in due course.
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that, possibly through the usual channels, arrangements might be made for a two-day debate, to which we might contribute part of our time?
Mr. Butler: The right hon. Gentleman is showing very remarkable generosity in his offer, and we would certainly agree that at least part of the time—perhaps I might even say all of the time—might come out of Opposition time. At any rate, we accept his offer, and will also consider the request made from this side of the House for a two-day debate.
Dame Irene Ward: If we are to have so many days for discussion of these important matters, could we have time to debate the Phillips Report?
Mr. Butler: I anticipated that my hon. Friend would refer to the Phillips Report,

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but I can see no hope of a discussion in the immediate future. This is one of the many subjects waiting in the queue.
Mr. Mitchison: To return to the House of Commons Disqualification Bill, while we welcome the Government's somewhat tardy recognition of the complexity of the matters involved, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether we may have an assurance that the terms of reference to the Select Committee will be so wide as fully to cover what is involved? May we also be confirmed in our opinion that, after the Select Committee has made its Report, the matter will, in the ordinary course, come before the whole House as a Committee?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. The answer to the latter part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's question is that the Bill will, of course, have to be recommitted. The reason why we are choosing a Select Committee is because of the intense complexity of the Bill in the parts relating to offices of profit and to contracts. A Motion will be placed on the Order Paper to enable us to take this step, and it is at that stage that the hon. and learned Gentleman and his hon. and right hon. Friends will be able to judge whether the terms of reference and so forth, are suitable.
Mr. Carmichael: May I ask the Leader of the House whether a Minister from the Scottish Office will take part in the debate on capital punishment?
Mr. Butler: I cannot say at present who the Government's speakers will be, but my right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary himself must play a very prominent part in putting the Government's case. I do not know whether there will be time for a representative of the Scottish Office also to speak, but it is a matter which I will discuss with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Mr. Warbey: Can the Leader of the House say when we can have a debate on foreign affairs, in view of the fact that we have not had such a debate for seven months, and of the desire to debate the highly important matters discussed last autumn at Geneva and more recently at Washington?
Mr. Butler: No doubt, first of all, the hon. Gentleman will discuss that with his right hon. Friends on the Front Opposi-
1816
tion Bench. We shall discuss it through the usual channels, and when we have finished with these preliminaries we may be able to reach agreement.
Mr. Blenkinsop: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Government will be able to provide time to discuss the very important Report on the National Health Service by the Guillebaud Committee?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. This matter has been raised before in Questions and Answers. I can give no undertaking as to a day, because I think that the Report of the Guillebaud Committee needs a little more consideration than hon. Members have yet been able to give it. It is a massive Report, and I would suggest that a little more time is necessary for consideration before we have a debate upon it.
Mr. Wigg: When the right hon. Gentleman is framing the Motion in connection with the House of Commons Disqualification Bill, will he bear in mind that this is primarily a House of Commons matter and not solely one for the two Front Benches? Will he also take note of the important Amendments already on the Order Paper in the names of myself and some of my hon. Friends?
Mr. Butler: I am aware of the hon. Member's particular interest in this Bill. We shall endeavour to serve the House, as we have done already in suggesting that the Bill should go to a Select Committee, a course which I believe the hon. Gentleman himself supported.
Mr. de Freitas: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those of us who were particularly interested in getting a debate on capital punishment, and who have been waiting anxiously Thursday after Thursday to hear the announcement, were somewhat galled to learn, not from the Leader of the House, but from the B.B.C. 8 o'clock news, that the debate would be next week?
Mr. Butler: I can be responsible for a good many people, but I certainly cannot be responsible for the B.B.C. 8 o'clock news. As far as I am concerned, this decision was taken by the Government, and has been announced after immediate consultation with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on his return from North America. Some people are better prophets than others.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  TRANSPORT (DISPOSAL OF ROAD HAULAGE PROPERTY) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.46 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Hugh Molson): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  It is sometimes the fate of moderate proposals like those which I am commending to the House today to incur criticism from both sides. I must, therefore, choose my arguments with care, lest in rebutting one criticism I lay myself open to a contrary one. Indeed, I find myself somewhat in the position of an Independent councillor who was unexpectedly elected mayor because of a deadlock between Socialists and Conservatives, and who, in the embarrassment of an impromptu speech, said:
  "I will tread the narrow path between right and wrong. I do not quite mean that. I will show neither partiality nor impartiality. No; what I really mean to say is that I will be like Caesar's wife—all things to all men."
  I hope to show that this Bill fits logically into the Government's policy. I believe that it will make a contribution towards settling the transport problem and taking it, as I hope, outside party conflict. I shall not have time to go into the various Clauses in detail. Owing to the structure of the 1953 Act, they are somewhat complicated, but I hope, at any rate, to make the purposes of the Bill perfectly plain.
  Let me, first, deal with the background. In 1951, before the Election, the Conservative Party issued, "Britain Strong and Free."[An HON. MEMBER: "Horror comic."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite would be extremely fortunate if they could point to earlier pronouncements by their party and be able to say that they had been completely carried out.
  In "Britain Strong and Free" we said:
  "Both public and private enterprise will be needed in transport. Publicly-owned transport will be reorganised into regional groups of economic size. Private road hauliers will be given an opportunity of coming back into the business, and the crippling restriction of the 25-mile limit of operation on private lorries will be modified. Any publicly-owned road transport will be subject to the control of
  1818
  licensing authorities on the same terms as private hauliers. The existence of some genuine competition will make it reasonable to give those in control of publicly-owned transport greater freedom in charging and in other matters than would be tolerable in conditions of monopoly."
  The result of that statement and of our success at the 1951 Election was the Transport Act of 1953, which had three main purposes. First, it removed the 25-mile limit from the operations of private hauliers in order to set them free to compete with British Road Services. Secondly, it subjected British Road Services to the ordinary requirements of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933, and required them to obtain carriers licences from the licensing authorities in exactly the same way as private hauliers. Thirdly, it required B.R.S. to sell a large proportion of its haulage fleet.
  The policy of the Conservative Government in 1953 was not to prevent the British Transport Commission from having a road fleet. We were quite agreeable to B.R.S. continuing to be a State-owned undertaking and, indeed, to be the largest single unit in the haulage field. It was only intended that B.R.S. should not enjoy a privileged position, but should be obliged to compete and to face competition. "Live and let live" is a good principle, and nowhere is it better applicable than in the realm of transport.
  Our reason for not treating road haulage as we treated the railways was based on purely practical and empirical considerations. The railways, by their nature, run to routine and cannot alter services to meet small, unexpected haulage demands. On the other hand, the road haulage industry sprang up after the First World War, and many of the big hauliers who then started—having been demobilised and having bought one or two R.A.S.C. lorries—were particularly well adapted to meet the needs and convenience of their neighbours.
  It is our belief that it is desirable that there should always be small hauliers running their own businesses and able by an immediate decision to meet any particular demand for the transport of goods. Such a service as that is least suited to nationalisation, which inevitably means some general control in accordance with certain general principles which have been laid down at the centre.

  1819
  There have also grown up, however, during those thirty-five years, great trunk services which run on fixed schedules. We are convinced that they are highly efficient, although they have gained greatly in efficiency since 1953 as a result of the keen competition which has been provided by private hauliers.
  Mr. J. A. Sparks: That is not so.
  Mr. Molson: Speaking, if I may, for a moment with complete detachment—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, indeed, with complete detachment, I would say that those who advocate whole-hog nationalisation of road haulage seem to me to underestimate the importance of small units and flexibility in local and feeder services, while I also feel that those who advocate whole-hog denationalisation often underestimate the value of a co-ordinated system in the case of the trunk services.
  The disposal of the B.R.S. vehicles under the 1953 Act began, and proceeded until last spring, with a very large measure of success—[An HON. MEMBER: "Rot."] An hon. Gentleman, with his usual elegant choice of phrase says that that is rot. But at the end of May, 1955, 24,569 vehicles had been put up for sale and 15,008—or about two-thirds—had been sold. Those lists, generally speaking, covered the smaller units, tailored to meet the needs of the small man. In 1953, Parliament showed great solicitude for the small man, and it was laid down in the Transport Act, 1953, as a direction to the Disposals Board and to the Commission that
  "… the Commission shall have regard to the desirability of securing that persons desirous of entering or re-entering the road haulage industry have a reasonable opportunity of doing so notwithstanding that their resources permit them to do so only if their operations are on a small scale.…"
  Mr. H. Hynd: Was it foreseen at that time that that direction would involve a loss to the taxpayer of £12½ million?
  Mr. Molson: If the hon. Member will look at the Third Schedule to the 1953 Act he will see that it was foreseen that a loss would result, and that elaborate principles were laid down for calculating what the loss would be.
  At the end of the fifth Report of the Road Haulage Disposals Board there are
  1820
  some tables analysing the results. Table I shows how conscientiously the Commission and the Board designed units in the early lists to meet the requirements of the small man. Table 5 shows that his response in these sales was good, while that of the big man was disappointing. Nearly 77 per cent. of the vehicles sold were sold in lots of less than 10. A pattern was already quite clear which made it appear unlikely that when List S.4, which contained the trunk services, was put up for sale there would be many good bids. The result, in fact, was very much what we had expected, only 528 out of the 6,115 vehicles being sold.
  Confronted with this situation the Government had to consider whether it should put up S.4 for sale again. If we had done so one of three results would have ensued. First, it was conceivable that if put up a second time the list would have sold successfully, the trunk lines being taken over by hauliers able and willing to maintain them as great going concerns. We were advised that this was extremely unlikely to happen. The chances were estimated to be more than ten to one against such a great success. That was the first argument against offering S.4 a second time.
  In the second place, it was possible that just a few of the best units might have been sold. That would have meant that the B.R.S. trunk system would have been broken up but that a great many of the vehicles and depots would have been left unsold. We should, in fact, have been left with the problem of how to dispose of the least attractive and profitable parts of the B.R.S. haulage services. That was the second argument against offering S.4 a second time.
  The third possibility—and we were advised that it was much the most probable—was that the sale would again be an almost complete failure. That was a third argument against offering S.4 a second time.
  Although it had thus been shown to be impossible to sell the trunk services as going concerns, there still remained, of course, the possibility of selling them as penny packets. There was still an unsatisfied demand for second-hand lorries which small men were anxious to buy. It was, therefore, possible to sell the vehicles, if we wished to do so, but only

  1821
  at the price of breaking up the trunk services. The Government had to make up their minds whether they were willing to do that.
  I have suggested earlier in my speech that there is a great difference between rural, local and feeder services, on the one hand, and the great trunk lines, on the other. After careful consideration we came to the conclusion that the road trunk services are now a vital form of transport to industry and commerce. We felt that it would be entirely wrong to destroy an organisation of that kind.
  Mr. Sparks: Then why the 1953 Act?
  Mr. Molson: To have done so, we felt, would have been to sacrifice a valuable national asset to an ideological prejudice. We, who on occasion of party controversy have been inclined to bring that reproach against hon. Members opposite, were anxious not to fall into the same error ourselves.
  Mr. Sparks: Then why the 1953 Act?
  Mr. Molson: Once we had decided to maintain the trunk services and had found that private enterprise was unwilling or unable to take them over as going concerns, there was no satisfactory alternative to leaving them in the hands of B.R.S. This new policy involves a substantial Amendment of the 1953 Act, but it is a change of degree and not of principle. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] As I have already indicated, the 1953 Act contemplated that the Transport Commission should remain a large participant in the haulage industry and should, indeed, be the largest single haulier in the country. The effect of the Bill will be to increase the number of general haulage vehicles left in the hands of B.R.S. from 2,350 to 7,750.
  Mr. George Darling: Not enough.
  Mr. Molson: This change is made by Clause 1, which provides for the taking over of this number of vehicles by companies under the control of the B.T.C. This figure was arrived at by Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve, who was asked to make an estimate of the number of vehicles needed to preserve the trunk services in being. The number of special A licences
  1822
  which B.R.S. will retain as a right will be 7½per cent. less than that number. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]
  I am asked why. In any fleet of vehicles, a certain number of vehicles are always out of use undergoing repair and maintenance. This proportion has been agreed between the Transport Commission and the Road Haulage Association as approximately 7½per cent. The Commission will, of course, be entitled to apply for additional licences for this 7½per cent. and to obtain them if it can satisfy the licensing authorities of the need in accordance with the provisions of the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: Would my hon. Friend not agree that it is fair to say that Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve was not unequivocal in his statement of a figure of 7,750 general haulage vehicles to be retained? Is it not a fact that in his report he wrote:
  "The answer to the reference to me is not, however, capable of mathematical answer. It involves a difficult matter of opinion."
  Mr. Molson: I have often wondered what a rhetorical question was. When an hon. Member stands up and reads a question from a document which is available to the whole House, I suppose that is a good example of a rhetorical question.
  Mr. Nabarro: A very good one, nevertheless.
  Mr. Molson: The answer, of course, is this: this was a question of an estimate and it was for that reason that my right hon. Friend who was then Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation asked Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve, as the person most likely to be able to arrive at a sound estimate, to give him that estimate in his personal capacity. Had it been capable of being calculated mathematically it would not have been necessary to call in an arbitrator, as Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve was called in.
  The Road Haulage Association has, naturally, protested against what we are proposing to do. No doubt it is disappointed that what is had led the Conservative Party, when in opposition, to believe to be likely to happen has not, in fact, materialised.
  Mr. Sparks: We told you so.
  Mr. Molson: Those hauliers whose businesses have been nationalised and whom the Association believed to be willing and able to come back into the business have not, in fact, done so. The whole course of the sales has shown that small men were anxious to add to their fleets by obtaining second-hand lorries, but that big men either would not or could not buy large units. The offer of List S.4 was their chance to buy and they did not take it. I have already explained at length why the Government did not feel able to give the hauliers a second chance with S.4. There is no reason to suppose that even if the list had been offered again the units would have been sold.
  After the failure of that sale some inquiries were made. They amounted to 19, and only in two cases did the inquirers suggest that the imminence of the General Election had anything to do with their failure to bid. The units to which these inquiries related were only 830 vehicles out of a total of 5,587 vehicles remaining unsold after the first offer.
  I do not doubt that the Road Haulage Association believed that the large units in S.4 and other lists would sell, but I cannot accept the validity of its arguments as to why the sales did not go better and I wish to reply to two of the Association's principal arguments. First, the units offered for sale were generally in the form in which they had been operated by B.R.S. In cases where they were not, they had been modified in size and form to appeal to potential customers. On more than one occasion a customer for whom they had been designed made no bid or only a derisory bid.
  Secondly, it is not true to say that reserve prices have been unduly high. They were often substantially lower than the Transport Commission's valuation. In fact, the reserve prices were fixed by the impartial Disposals Bid, which quite conscientiously fulfilled the promises made by the Government to the House in 1953 that State property would not be sold to private investors at a sacrifice.
  Experience suggests the need for amending the method of sale through the formation of companies under Section 5 of the 1953 Act. It is not likely to work satisfactorily for three reasons. First,
  1824
  because that Section does not provide for any loan charges in the companies and, therefore, the only thing that can be put up for sale are the ordinary shares. Secondly, these have to be sold in one parcel and that rules out the possibility of any underwriting contract. Thirdly, there is no power to keep the company for a time, to run it, and to issue two or three profit and loss accounts, because counsel have advised the Disposals Board that the shares must be put on sale as soon as the company had been formed and a prospectus issued.
  How very unattractive such a precipitate issue of the shares upon the market is, has been shown by the fate of the offer of the parcels company, the prospectus of which was issued on 25th October. Only one offer was received and that came from an unconscious humorist who made it a condition of his offer that the Government should first lend him £10 million. Clause 2 and the Schedule of the Bill rectify these defects.
  I come to the question of trailers. They were not important in the 1953 Act because the total fleet left to B.R.S. was so small, but they obviously become important when the fleet being left is so much larger. That Act required the Commission to surrender any licences which it held in respect of motor vehicles as soon as those motor vehicles were sold. There was no corresponding obligation in the case of trailers. The Commission, therefore, has licences for a large number of trailers which it either has disposed of or intends to dispose of. Clause 4 of the Bill removes this anomaly and requires the Commission to drop all licences for trailers disposed of under the earlier Act.
  Trailers, of course, are of two kinds. There is an articulated trailer drawn by a tractor where, of course, the trailer carries the whole load. There is also a draw-bar trailer towed by a vehicle which itself carries a load. It is the practice in the industry for there to be two or three articulated trailers for every tractor, because only one trailer is on the road at a time, and one trailer is being loaded and another is being unloaded at a depot.
  Of the 3,200 licensed trailers referred to in Clause 1 (1, c) there are 2,057 articulated trailers for use with motor vehicles in categories (ii) and (iii). The rest are draw-bar trailers to be used with vehicles which are themselves load carriers. The Commission will no doubt

  1825
  wish to keep more articulated trailers than they might have on licence for the reason that I have given, that three can be in use although only one is on the road and, therefore, only one needs to be licenced. These extra trailers will require to be approved by the Disposals Board under Clause 1 (1, d.)
  I come now to contract hire vehicles. B.R.S. has a number of contracts for the hire of vehicles. Some big concerns requiring delivery vans have found it convenient and economical to hire a fleet of vehicles, often wearing the concerns' own livery, for their own exclusive use for a term of years. In a number of cases the hirer would not agree to his vehicles being sold nor would he agree to his contract being transferred to a purchaser. A number of quite famous concerns have taken this line. I mention Lyons, Cadbury's, Crosse and Blackwell and the General Electric Company.
  In such circumstances, the Commission was allowed to carry on with the contract until the first legal opportunity to terminate it occurred, and then it was free to compete with private hauliers for a new contract. If, however, B.R.S. was successful in the competition in obtaining a new contract, it was still obliged under the 1953 Act to sell the old vehicles and to buy new ones. This seems unnecessary, and Clause 3 of the Bill will give effect to this change.
  There remains only one other matter to which I ought to refer and that is the Transport Levy. Sections 12 to 15 of the 1953 Act and the Third Schedule deal at length with the establishment of the Transport Levy out of which the Commission was to be compensated for the capital loss inflicted upon it by that Act. The Bill will very substantially reduce that loss, and Clause 7 will terminate the levy as from the end of this year. We believe that this will do rough justice, and we shall be happy to explain it in detail when we are in Committee.
  The Bill is, at the same time, an amendment and a completion of the 1953 Act. The general policy of that Act has been carried out and has been justified by our experience up to now. The freeing of private hauliers from the 25-mile limit and the subjection of B.R.S. to the need to obtain licences from the licensing
  1826
  authority have both resulted in an improvement in service due to the keen competition which exists between public and private enterprise.
  Out of 35,561 vehicles held by B.R.S. when the Act came into operation, 18,830 have been sold, and most of them, as I have said, have been bought by small men who operated so efficiently before nationalisation and who are doing so again.
  Mr. David Jones: Ruining the industry.
  Mr. Molson: The Government gave the private hauliers an opportunity to buy also the great trunk services, but they have not chosen to do so. It follows, therefore, that in this field road haulage can best be preserved and run by public enterprise. I believe that in transport there is ample room for both public and private enterprise, and I think that they ought to compete, but on fair terms.
  It is vital for the welfare of transport and, therefore, of the country that it should cease to be the victim of rival political ideologies. This Bill represents a compromise between nationalisation and denationalisation. It will no doubt be criticised from both sides of the House, but the Government put it forward as a sensible settlement which could give to the industry certainty, security and stability.
  4.20 p.m.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: I had expected the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to come to the House today in sackcloth and ashes, instead of which he has tried to clothe himself in a white sheet. I listened very carefully to his speech, in which I had expected to hear from him an apology for the reversal of Government policy. Instead of that he endeavoured, as he stated, to take a detached view and set out to claim that the Bill we are now considering fitted logically into Government policy. The hon. Gentleman is putting a very different interpretation upon Government policy from that put upon it by the previous Ministers of Transport and Civil Aviation when they moved the 1953 Bill and defended it subsequently in this House.
  Mr. D. Jones: And different from the back benchers also.
  Mr. Davies: Of course, we cannot blame the present Minister or his Parliamentary Secretaries for the chameleon-like transport policy of the Government. We have seen the policy shuttled between Berkeley Square, Downing Street and the Palace of Westminster and we have now seen a complete reversal of the policy which was presented to us in 1953. It is no use the Parliamentary Secretary now taking credit for having decided to allow B.R.S. to retain its trunk services on the ground that they are efficient. What the Government are doing now is to take the advice we gave them as long ago as 1952.
  Why have the Government had to come here with this Bill this afternoon? It is because of the inevitable failure of an unworkable policy, forced through this House under the Guillotine at the relentless insistence of the road hauliers for purely party political reasons. In spite of what the Parliamentary Secretary has claimed, that policy, in my view, has been thoroughly discredited, and so have all those who were responsible for implementing it. This Bill is unnecessary—[Laughter.] I mean it is necessary. A large section of this Bill is quite unnecessary. The only part that is necessary is Clause 1.
  Apart from the first Clause, the Bill is unnecessary. It would be far better if the Government had come to the House with a single Clause Bill enabling British Road Services to retain all those vehicles which have not been sold. That would have been a non-controversial Bill and would have got through this House with expedition.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Is the hon. Member really telling the House and the country that only Clause 1 is necessary? Is he really telling hundreds of thousands of C licence holders that they must go on paying the levy?
  Mr. Davies: I would remind the noble Lord that the provision for termination of the levy is included in the 1953 Act. This Bill is necessary simply because the Minister cannot sell the lorries, because he has not the power to allow the Commission to retain them and because he does not dare to defy road hauliers and his own back benchers, who are persisting that powers be taken for facilitating the sale of those lorries within the parcels
  1828
  organisation and the meat organisation which have not yet been sold.
  In my view, the Bill follows inevitably from the pig-headed persistence of the then Prime Minister and his Minister of Transport, who brushed aside the wiser counsels of the British Transport Commission, which described denationalisation as then proposed as quite unworkable as well as undesirable. They brushed aside the opposition of the British chambers of commerce, which feared the break-up of the national net-work of services. They also had opposition from some of their own back benchers who, when it came to the point, had not the courage to go into the Lobby to vote for their Amendments which proposed the very procedure of disposing through the company organisation which the Government have now had to incorporate in this Bill.
  Had the Government listened to the advice of those organisations and certain of their back benchers at that time and not forced the 1953 Act through under the Guillotine, forced it through in the form in which it now appears on the Statute Book, this Bill would not have been necessary. What a story of gross incompetence and false prophesy!
  The Parliamentary Secretary suggested that the Government had been successful in selling off the lorries. I should like to remind them that when the Minister of Transport was introducing the 1953 Bill he predicted that disposal would be completed by the end of 1953. He stated, on 3rd December, 1952:
  "By 'time' we do not mean over the years. It is our hope that it will be possible to finish with the procedure of disposal by the end of the year."
  The Minister meant 1953. He also said:
  "That is our hope, but, by the very provisions of the Bill, we retain flexibility.… We have every hope that it will be possible, so that those who acquire these businesses will have one year of clear protection before the 25-mile limit is lifted at the end of 1954."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd December, 1952; Vol. 508. c. 1590.]
  What a hope! How it has been falsified by events! By the end of 1953 not a single vehicle had been sold. It was not until February, 1954, that the first vehicles were transferred. The Minister did not learn his lesson and, through his P.P.S., sent a message in November, 1953, to the road hauliers at their annual dinner in which he predicted that 10,000

  1829
  vehicles would be sold by April, 1954. By June, 1954—two months later—only 5,000 vehicles had been sold and it was not until November, 1954, that 10,000 vehicles had been sold. What is more, by the end of 1954, when the 25-mile limit came to an end and there was freedom of operation for road hauliers, instead of those who had entered or re-entered the industry having had a year of freedom, there were 20,000 vehicles which still remained to be sold. That is the "success" of the disposal of road haulage undertakings.
  What is the position today? Nearly three years after that Bill left this House—31 months after it received Royal Assent—only half of the Commission's original road haulage fleet has been sold; 18,000 vehicles out of 36,000 vehicles which the Commission held have been disposed of. For the parcels vehicles no serious bid was received, and for the meat organisation the only bid came from a fishmonger.
  Government policy has failed for precisely the reasons that we on this side of the House said it would fail. The only difference between our predictions and the predictions of Government spokesmen during our debates is that our predictions have come true and theirs have not. The two previous Ministers of Transport brushed aside our demands for earlier action in allowing the Commission to retain further vehicles. They brushed aside our claims that their policy on disposal had been a failure and that amending legislation would be necessary. They brushed them aside with slick and inaccurate answers.
  From the beginning we asked what was to happen to the rump of the British Road Services; what was to happen to those vehicles which would not be disposed of. The Government said that there would be no residue and that it would not be necessary to decide upon that. When I asked the last Minister of Transport when it was proposed to introduce legislation to terminate the sales, he stated that the only proposals he had heard had come from the Opposition. He said:
  "The time of their introduction is, therefore, so remote as to amount to the merest speculation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th November, 1954; Vol. 532, c. 1182.]
  Seven months later he told the House that amending legislation would be necessary. That is a queer interpretation of the word
  1830
  "remote." Within a few months the Minister found it necessary to admit that the Opposition had been correct and that amending legislation was necessary.
  As the Parliamentary Secretary pointed out, the main objectives of the 1953 Act have been fulfilled, in as much as the 25-mile limit has been abolished; the B.T.C. vehicles have been brought under a licensing system; progress has been made with disposal, and competition for long-distance has been reintroduced. That being so, why is it necessary that the Government have to proceed with any further sales? Why is it necessary for the Government now to take powers within this Bill, as they propose to do, to enable companies to be formed to facilitate the sale of the parcels and the meat organisation?
  The conversion, or reconstruction of the parcels organisation into a new company and the offering of it for sale on the market will not increase the competition in long-distance road haulage. It will not add to the efficiency, or the greater success, of the road haulage industry. All that it will do if it succeeds—that is, if the sale takes place—is to transfer from public to private hands a very successful and profitable organisation; for it is a profitable section of British Road Services today.
  The Parliamentary Secretary informed us that it is proposed that British Road Services should not be allowed to retain 7,750 vehicles with special A licences, but that number of licences is to be reduced by 7¼per cent. In justification, he claims that there is that number of vehicles normally under repair or not in operation. That being so, I take it that, if the parcels organisation is sold, not all the 4,000 vehicles will receive licences when they are disposed of—transferred into the company—but that equally, the licences will be reduced by 7¼per cent. That is the logical conclusion which I arrive at from the statement the hon. Gentleman made about the 7,750 vehicles.
  The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the reason why the number of licences is being reduced by nearly 600, which, in effect, means that British Road Services will have 600 fewer vehicles operating upon the roads, is the pressure which has been brought to bear upon the Government by his own back benchers at the insistence of the Road

  1831
  Haulage Association. This is done to placate his own back benchers and the Road Haulage Association.
  Mr. Nabarro: Who are all these people?
  Mr. Davies: The hon. Member should be the last to ask that question. One need only look at the benches opposite; the answer is there. I suggest to the Minister of Transport that he has no need whatever to fear his own back benchers. They will not vote against the Government now or even in Committee.
  We had experience in the debates on the 1953 Bill. During that time the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) moved an Amendment which we on this side supported. It proposed that there should be a form of disposal, through companies, on very much the same lines as the proposal incorporated in this Bill. We challenged a Division: the right hon. Member for Hall Green went into the Division Lobby with some of his colleagues who had also supported the Amendment, and voted against his own Amendment. That right hon. Gentleman is now the Minister of Fuel and Power.
  Mr. D. Jones: That is his reward.
  Mr. Davies: No doubt the lesson of that is in the minds of hon. Gentlemen opposite, and their behaviour will be precisely the same.
  Mr. Nabarro: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way to me. I wish to place on record at this stage that nothing but the most cordial and amicable relations exist between my right hon. Friend and myself——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris): Order. That is a very improper use of an intervention.
  Mr. Davies: But it came from the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro).
  The road haulage organisation has been sufficiently broken up. The Government have already done enough damage to the road haulage industry. The industry has been fragmented, except for those vehicles which remain with British Road Services and which carry on the national network of trunk services. It has been atomised. The reason the trunk
  1832
  services are to remain with British Road Services is not the one which the Parliamentary Secretary gave. The Government do not deserve any credit for making this decision. It is because the Government could not sell them off without further atomising the industry, without further breaking it up into a very large number of small units, and trade and industry have objected to that being done. It would be against the public interest, and industry has made that clear.
  The vast number of vehicles sold have been sold in lots of one, two, three or four. One finds from the fifth Report of the Road Haulage Disposal Board that there were over 3,000 vehicles sold in lots of one vehicle; nearly 4,000 in lots of two; 2,000 in lots of three, and so on. In fact, of the 18,000 vehicles sold, 11,800 were sold in units of one to four vehicles, and 13,875 were sold in lots of under ten vehicles each—of between one and nine.
  The Parliamentary Secretary nods. He took credit for the fact that the sales had taken place to the small man. A large number of these vehicles has passed into the hands of other than small men, and a very large number have been re-sold and re-sold again, assigned to a different operator and re-sold, frequently at considerable profit. If the Parliamentary Secretary takes any of the technical transport papers he will see, each week, column after column of advertisements for the sale of these vehicles carrying special A licences.
  What does this mean? It means that the one guarantee or assurance given to us during the passage of the 1953 Act has not been fulfilled. The Minister assured us that British Road Services vehicles would be sold off as businesses and that they would continue to operate in and to serve substantially the same areas as previously. In practice, however, these vehicles have been transferred from one part of the country to another, and the terms of the 1953 Act in this respect have not been fulfilled.
  That Act provides, in its First Schedule, that a special A licence can be refused if a vehicle is removed from the base from which it has previously operated to another base where it is not able to serve the same area. Section 9 (4) also provides that if, when a licence is applied

  1833
  for, false information is given about the base from which the vehicle will operate, the licence can be revoked. But in answer to Parliamentary Questions which I have put to the Minister, I have been informed that as far as refusal of licences is concerned, less than a score of refusals have been known; and as far as false information is concerned, there has not been one revocation of a single licence.
  I could, however, quote instance after instance of vehicles being transferred from one part of the country to another. I have a list of vehicles which were sold from Kent depots, showing that vehicles were transferred from Canterbury, Maidstone, Swanley, Strood and elsewhere, to Leicester, Whitley Bay and other towns in the North of England. In the case of Strood, three vehicles were transferred to Dundee, in Scotland, and one was transferred from Swanley to Motherwell. Can it be claimed that these vehicles can possibly serve substantially the same areas and provide the same services as the B.R.S. was doing previously? In this respect, the Act has not been fulfilled, and there has been a deterioration in the road haulage service which is being offered to the country.
  If proof of that is necessary, I would refer hon. Members to a case which came before the licensing authority for the south-east of England early this year. It was reported in the trade Press of 20th January, I refer to a case which concerned an application by the B.R.S. for 15 A licences. This arose from the disposal from August, 1954, of all but seven of the 26 vehicles licensed at Sheerness. The 19 vehicles, after they had been sold, were removed from the Medway area by their new owners.
  The B.R.S. had to bring in vehicles from other depots or to hire vehicles to meet the needs of its customers, one of whom, the Canning Town Glass Works, insisted that its requirements could only be adequately met by B.R.S. and that it would not think of relying on the facilities of other hauliers, which were considered to be quite unsuitable. B.R.S. had to resort to quite abnormal and excessive use of the vehicles until, in October, 1954, it was forced to inform these customers that it would shortly be unable to cater for them. The customers thereupon demanded that B.R.S. should obtain replacement vehicles because they could not rely on local facilities.
  1834
  Here was a case where the vehicles were sold off, they were removed from the district, the service could not be provided, and the customers insisted on B.R.S. finding alternative vehicles. B.R.S., therefore, had to go to the licensing authority and the licences were granted. In granting them, the licensing authority said:
  "The position of the Commission, particularly at Sheerness, was extremely difficult in that customers there demanded a service which a number of smaller operators would have found it difficult to provide. If the B.T.C. felt it its duty to cater for these needs it ought perhaps never to have decided to dispose of the fleet at Sheerness."
  What option did the B.R.S. have but to dispose of those vehicles? It was Government policy that they had to be put up for sale. The Government were forcing the sale. If the vehicles at Sheerness had not been put up for sale, vehicles somewhere else would have been put up if the Act was to be fulfilled. The same thing is happening all over the country. The B.R.S. is not able to provide as comprehensive a service as its customers desire, and private road hauliers are not able to give the alternative facilities.
  The incredible fact is that in spite of the great difficulties, B.R.S. has carried on so satisfactorily. I see from the Press that for 1955 it is likely to have made a profit of £4 million. It has been no easy task for the staff to maintain its keenness and morale when it sees its tools being literally driven away by its competitors. To work for an organisation in the process of disintegration is disheartening to say the least, but such great faith have the B.R.S. staff, of all grades, in the organisation that they rightly believed it could never be destroyed. They improvised under extremely difficult conditions and have pulled through and carried on. What is more, they have made this profit and have now the great satisfaction of knowing that they cannot be broken up, and will not be broken up, and will be able to carry on. Industry and the nation owes gratitude to the staff of B.R.S. for the task they have performed.
  What better testimonial could the B.R.S. have than that which was given by the licensing authority? These unsolicited testimonials are of far more value than the solicited complaints which some hon. Members of the House have

  1835
  produced on previous occasions. Members opposite, but not the Minister, based their case for further disposals on the alleged inefficiency of British Road Services. The hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Hirst) has burnt his fingers in the House when he has quoted an occasional instance of dissatisfaction; but the hon. Member is quite unafraid and has returned to the fray.
  The hon. Member has sent out a letter to a large number of customers of B.R.S. soliciting complaints from them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] I will read the letter, of which the hon. Member kindly gave me a copy, although I had already received one, when I informed him that I would raise the matter. It is headed "British Road Services" and states:
  "Dear Sir,
  I am in the course of making a study to discover the degree with which B.R.S. are providing a reasonable service to industry and commerce, and this applies especially to the trunk road services. I should be most grateful if you would help me with any information and details of your experience. This applies more especially if your experience has occasioned serious delays. I undertake to keep your firm's name entirely confidential. I might add that apart from being a Member of Parliament, I am the immediate past President of the Leeds Chamber of Commerce and thus have a special interest in serving the interest of industry and commerce."
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke Mr. R. Gresham Cooke (Twickenham)rose——
  Mr. Davies: I would give way to the hon. Member for Shipley, if he wishes to intervene, but not to the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke).
  Mr. Geoffrey Hirst: Since the hon. Member invites me to intervene, I do not withdraw or apologise at all for that letter. As soon as he drew my attention to it, I wanted to make quite sure that he was fully informed and I sent him a copy. The hon. Member is jumping to conclusions. If I get a chance later, I will explain the reason for the letter. I have nothing at all for which to apologise.
  Mr. Davies: I am sure that the whole House will look forward to the hon. Gentleman's explanation and will expect an apology from him, because I consider that this is a despicable abuse of a Member's position and reveals a mean
  1836
  mind. It shows that hon. Members cannot rely on complaints coming voluntarily to them, but they must tout round for them. Will the hon. Member, when he produces the complaints, if he has received any, also produce all the letters which have reached him in which compliments have been paid to B.R.S.? I know that the House will place far more value on unsolicited testimonials than on the hon. Member's solicited complaints.
  Clause 2 and the Schedule to which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport referred enable companies to be formed to facilitate the sale of the parcels and meat organisations on the lines which were rejected when the Transport Act, 1953, was under discussion. I hope that when the Minister replies to the debate he will tell us his intentions in this respect. I regard the Clause with grave suspicion. We have seen this procedure followed in the case of the iron and steel industry. In many instances the companies which have been put up for sale have been disposed of by means of the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency which has been left with the fixed interest debentures, the equity capital being sold off.
  If that procedure is followed in this case, the British Transport Commission will be left with a large block of fixed interest bearing capital bringing in low interest yields whereas the equity stock, carrying the profits which B.R.S. has been making, will be transferred to private enterprise. I cannot see any justification for transferring into private pockets the profits which a public concern is making through successful operations. It means that in the process substantial profits will be made on the Stock Exchange. Who can benefit from the sale of the parcels and meat organisations but the profit-takers?
  I hope that the Minister will tell us when the reconstruction of the parcel company is to take place after the Bill becomes law, whether it is to be put up for sale and, if so, whether he is going to protect the interests of the Transport Commission or sell at any price to any comer. I have great fears that if a sale is forced, the loss which will accrue to the Transport Commission will be substantial and more than the levy will be able to recompense. Not only should the House be informed of the Minister's intentions with regard to parcels and

  1837
  meat, but he should give an assurance to the House relating to capital reconstruction.
  The Minister has considerable powers, indeed too great powers under the Bill, to arrange or order and direct that reconstruction should take place and to direct when sales shall take place. He should give an assurance that if there is capital reconstruction the Commission will retain its proportionate share of equity capital and that it will not have to hive off that section of capital which carries with it the profits and retain only the fixed interest bearing stock. If it retains managerial responsibility, which has also been suggested, it must retain financial responsibility, too.
  In this respect an assurance is needed concerning the staff, because under the 1953 Act employees are considered as employees of the Commission for the purpose of negotiating machinery and working conditions until the company is sold but, as I understand the Act, they are not considered employees of the Commission in respect of compensation for displacement or worsening of conditions. I believe that representations have been made by the trade unions on this matter. It would be helpful if the Minister could indicate whether or not the compensation regulations are to be amended.
  As to the levy which Clause 7 brings to an end, that levy was introduced to provide compensation where there was displacement of workers and the like and to meet the cost of disposal and any loss incurred through disposal. During debates on the 1953 Act, the House was assured and reassured by Government spokesmen that no loss should accrue to the Commission, that the main purpose of the levy was to meet that loss, and that the Commission was not to carry any loss whatsoever from disposal. The former Minister of Transport, in reply to Questions in the House, went so far as to say that there was no loss. The Bill provides that the levy shall cease at the end of this year. In reply to Questions which I put to the Minister yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman said that, when the levy comes to an end, if the Transport Fund has not sufficient in it to meet the loss which has occurred, the Transport Commission itself will have to bear that loss.
  1838
  This is a breach of the undertaking which was given to the House. The levy should not cease unless it is certain that it is adequate to meet the purposes for which it was intended or, if it does cease, an alternative source of finance should be found. The Government should give a guarantee to the Commission that it will meet any deficit which the Transport Fund is unable to meet.
  The Minister has estimated that the total requirement to meet the loss will be £12¼ million. It is one of those agreeable coincidences which are so helpful to politicians that the loss on disposal happens to be precisely the amount that it is expected will be realised by the levy by the time it ceases at the end of the year. How fortunate it was that when the Minister gazed into the crystal ball he saw in all innocence the figure of £12¼ million as the loss. How surprised he must have been, but how happy also it must have made him, when he discovered—subsequently no doubt—that the levy would bring in precisely the amount which it was estimated would be the loss to the Transport Commission.
  This is one of those coincidences which one is justified in gazing at a little cynically. I should like to know from the Minister how the loss has been computed. Was the Commission consulted as to what it estimated the loss would be, or did the Ministry itself compute the loss without full consultation with the Commission? Has the Commission itself agreed with this estimate?
  Instead of bringing the Bill to the House in its present form, which provides for both retentions and further sales, it would have been more honest and it would have served the country better if the Government had brought forward a simple one-Clause Bill, as I suggested, permitting the retention by the Commission of all its unsold vehicles. We support the retention Clause, but we shall resist any attempt to weaken it by reducing the number of vehicles which B.R.S. is allowed to retain, or any reduction of the number of licences below the figure of 7,750.
  The Clauses facilitating sales of parcels and meat are unnecessary. They are harmful to industry and financially dangerous to the Commission. The powers of the Minister are such that he can force

  1839
  sales without any protection against excessive loss. The levy is ended without the Commission being guaranteed against having itself to make good losses from such forced sales. On all these matters the Opposition will fight during subsequent stages of the Bill.
  No case has been made out for proceeding with this further break-up of a highly successful public enterprise. The Government are persisting in a vindictive policy which is inspired not by the economic interest of the country, but by the greed of the road hauliers, to whom they are politically indebted, and by the relentless pressure of their "stooges" on their own back benches.
  5.2 p.m.
  Mr. J. C. George: In making this, my maiden speech, I have no doubt the House will extend to me its usual kindly tolerance. I have the honour to represent a residential constituency in the great industrial City of Glasgow. Many and varied are the pursuits of its people. Shipbuilding, engineering, steel and other branches of industry and commerce provide a livelihood and enable its citizens to play an important part in the rising prosperity of this noble City.
  Large areas in my constituency contain fine homes, fit examples of the gracious architecture of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Great areas, where but a few years ago cattle quietly grazed, now provide modern homes for many thousands whose lives hitherto had been cramped and confined in old, insanitary and cheerless dwellings. Never did the sun shine brightly. Green fields and the quiet peace of the country, although but a few miles off, were almost unknown to the children. Now, by the diligence and foresight of the civic leaders, all has been changed. A vast human experiment is in progress. Forty thousand souls from the old heart of an ancient city now dwell in open, unindustrialised country, far from the clamour and smoke which tormented their lives in other days. With high hopes we watch progress from year to year and trust that finer, happier and healthier citizens will grow up in this new environment.
  I succeed that able and kindly Parliamentarian—now Lord Strathclyde—who
  1840
  contributed so much to the labours of this House as an hon. Member and, as a Minister, to the welfare and progress of Scotland. Now he deservedly occupies a high post in another place. I respect his many achievements and hope to serve my constituents and this House as faithfully in my time as he did in his.
  I intervene in this debate because, before transport nationalisation, I managed a road transport company. Since the Disposal Board began its task of denationalising, and until I became a Mem-of this House, I have been engaged with others in trying to build a company by buying vehicles back. Therefore, I am in a position to hear at least the view of the Scottish hauliers on this Bill. Criticism has been vigorous and forceful, mainly from supporters of the Government. Their general faith in the Government remains unshaken, of course, but they advance three main arguments against the Bill. They say that by seeking to retain 5,000 more vehicles we act contrary to our election pledge, violate fundamental Conservative principles, and betray free enterprise hauliers.
  Why, then, is such a Bill brought before the House by a Conservative Government? It is here because, as the Minister has explained, with the best of intentions it has not been possible fully to implement the provisions of the 1953 Act for the sale of vehicles. Honest attempts to sell have been made and have failed mainly, as the Minister has said, in respect of trunk transport.
  Certain special conditions govern the disposal of trunk transport. The sale cannot be of bits and pieces, as has been the case with other forms because the units must be of sufficient size to give stability to the system. Thus it was that units larger than had been normal were offered, and doubtless prices bearing a reasonable relation to real value would have been accepted. I am informed that no offers of this nature were received. To go on advertising would simply highlight our failure and encourage speculators. To break down the units and offer them in insignificant lots would be madness and would ruin the trunk transport system.
  Therefore, the realistic alternative, unpopular as it is in some quarters, was adopted. To my mind no other course was sensibly possible and I congratulate the former Minister upon his courage. To

  1841
  reject this Bill would be to order the Minister to go back to the market place and sell the trunk transport system at any price—an intolerable alternative. He could have taken the intolerable alternative, but I feel that the action now taken is simply plain common sense, the facing of hard, even unpalatable facts, and so I do not feel we need fear a charge of broken pledges or of violating Conservative principles. Therefore, I congratulate the former Minister upon his courage in bringing the Bill before the House.
  Now I come to the charge that the Bill betrays the private hauliers who bought vehicles from the Disposal Board. The charge could also be made that, far from our having betrayed free enterprise, free enterprise has betrayed us. Both would be equally false. I am concerned that those who ventured should have a fair deal from us in the future. This Bill came to them as a shock. Many have, staked their all in new businesses and, in addition, saddled themselves with onerous hire-purchase commitments. They did not expect the type of opposition which the Bill appears to create. They expected medium-sized firms in the same financial troubles as themselves. Instead, they are faced with a giant, a colossus, a State-financed concern owning 7,500 vehicles.
  However, time has passed since the Bill was first brought before the House, and on reflection the Scottish hauliers are not daunted. They do not now fear the opposition as much as they did in the beginning. They look back on past experience with British Road Services and say sardonically, "This opposition which the Bill creates is the best we could desire. Apathy, lethargy, lack of enterprise were dominant features in the past. We expect the future will be the same."
  They are not daunted but, speaking with all humility in a maiden speech, I say that, while it may be the view of the Scottish hauliers that apathy, lethargy and lack of enterprise will persist, I cannot accept that view. The passage of this Bill must not create a wider area of apathy and lethargy. Free enterprise hauliers must be undeceived. They must face vigorous opposition, which I am certain they can match provided the opposition trades on fair and equal terms.
  Therefore, I make several suggestions to my right hon. Friend. First, I suggest
  1842
  that, having failed to sell, he should organise and operate the additional 5,000 vehicles as if they had been sold. If they had been sold, they would have been dispersed in units of varying size, competing with our friends who bought earlier. That was the type of competition we expected if the Transport Act, 1953, had been fully implemented. Therefore, let us arrange that under the Bill competition takes exactly that form.
  I suggest that those 5,000 vehicles be kept separate and only very lightly tied to British Road Services, so that we can see what happens to them; that they be broken down into units of not more than 500 vehicles; that the Minister appoints local boards of a small number of fully experienced business men, with a general manager in every group having a sound and thorough knowledge of the industry and of customers' needs. He should reward those men according to results and not be deterred by envious critics. Cash earnings should reflect the degree of diligence and success.
  However, these new groups with no capital worries, no hire-purchase commitments, with business already well established, could, if they chose, offer better working conditions than could free enterprise and thereby seek to entice labour into their service. They could use the benefit of cheap capital to cut prices and even operate uneconomic services. Losses would not put them out of business, but that would not be fair trading on equal terms.
  There must be, if these groups are considered, a degree of co-operation through the federations, between these new groups and free enterprise hauliers, remembering that loose, friendly cooperation does not mean collusion. If a system of that nature were adopted, very high profits indeed could be earned. Here is a chance to prove what we have so often preached, that this side of the House can provide business brains able to tackle and accomplish tasks beyond the ability of the party on the other side of the House.
  I put forward these proposals with some hesitation in a maiden speech and, whether they be accepted in part or in whole, or completely rejected, I trust that they will give the Minister some idea of how some practical Conservatives, with

  1843
  little political experience but some transport knowledge, view the position in which unhappily we find ourselves. In the wider scope of nationalised industries; success with this Bill—and we can have great success if we tackle the problem properly—can set new targets for other State industries whose dismal record blights our immediate hopes of prosperity and annually gives the main, malignant twist to the upward spiral of rising prices and wages.
  The time has passed when we can excuse the results of nationalised industries on the ground that the party opposite nationalised them. I despise those who preach that the greater the losses in the nationalised industries, the fewer will be those who vote for the party opposite. We must not act in a negative way but, by positive action, we must win the approval of the country. Bolder thinking than hitherto must be brought to bear not only on the question of the 5,000 vehicles which we are now discussing, but on coal, electricity, gas and the railways. We must provide better planning, superior management, greater drive, dynamic leadership, from the Minister down. Not one of those industries need be a national liability. The Bill provides my right hon. Friend with the first and fascinating opportunity to prove our case. Let him grasp it gladly.
  5.14 p.m.
  Mr. Frank McLeavy: I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House will join with me in congratulating the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George) upon a very able maiden speech. It may well be that all he has said this afternoon will not find support on this side of the House. Indeed, he may find himself in some difficulty if he repeats the same arguments at a later date in the House or in Committee. Nevertheless, making a maiden speech is an ordeal. In fact, even those of us who have been Members for some years continue to find that making a speech is an ordeal. We hope that the hon. Member will find ample opportunity to make contributions to transport debates. Those of us who are especially interested in transport sincerely welcome a new voice on behalf of transport, even though it expresses opinions with which we might differ from time to time.
  1844
  Workers in the road haulage industry welcome those provisions of the Bill which go towards repairing the damage of the Transport Act, 1953. To allow the Transport Commission to retain a larger number of vehicles than permitted by that Act is a step in the right direction. The ill-conceived Act of 1953 was passed purely upon the extravagant assurances given to the Government by the Road Haulage Association that the available vehicles, if sold, would find ready bidders among people in the smaller section of the industry. Events have proved to the Government that they have been badly let down by the Association, and I presume that the Bill is a consequence of the Government's realisation of the folly which they committed in 1953.
  There will be general regret in responsible quarters of both sides of the industry that the Government have not taken their courage in both hands and allowed the Transport Commission to retain all the vehicles and services at present in its charge. I can never understand why any Government should treat a vital national service like transport as though it were a bankrupt concern and should seek to sell off its assets by a form of public auction.
  That they should establish an expensive system of a Disposal Board, coupled with a levy for compensation, seems to me shocking and a sign of mal-administration and shows a serious disregard of the main duties of Government. The first duty of Government is to safeguard the nation's assets and not to give them away to political friends. The Transport Act, 1947, was designed to bring about a system of integration of rail and road transport. The main purpose of the Act was to enable the many serious problems of transport to be dealt with on a national basis.
  There still remains a great need to cut out wasteful duplication of services and to combine road and rail services in an effort to cut down the rising costs of transport. It is only by unification of the industry that a really economic system of transport services can be achieved. The cost of transport, both goods and passenger, can play an important part in keeping a fair balance between prices and wages and can ease many of our economic problems.
  If we allow freight charges and passenger fares on rail and road to go up,

  1845
  we do two things: first, we increase the price of goods for foreign and home markets and may very well altogether price ourselves out of the foreign markets, and, secondly, we increase the cost of living at home and invite further applications and demands for increases of wages and pensions.
  The real issue before the House today is clear and simple. Parliament must decide whether we are to approach this problem from the point of view of the national interest, or allow a handful of profit seekers to ruin any chance of creating a first-class national transport service. I warned the Government in 1953, as did my colleagues, and I warn them again today, that their failure to put the national interest first may have a serious effect on the economic life of our people.
  There are a number of basic industries which we have nationalised in the public interest, and they have been referred to in this debate. Transport is closely allied to all of them. It is on transport that those industries depend for the conveyance of their products to the markets throughout the country and to the docks for export, but it is no earthly use for the Government to decide to retain the nationalised railway services if they propose to pass to private ownership the more profitable section of road haulage. If the railways are to be denied some financial assistance from the more profitable transport services, who will pay for the large schemes of railway modernisation which are contemplated?
  Let us examine another aspect of this problem, that of transport services in the agricultural areas. How often have we heard hon. Members opposite complain about the decreasing services in agricultural areas? Many of my hon. Friends have been equally concerned, because there has been a growing tendency to cut down the services on the ground of the inability of the undertakings to meet their financial obligations. Everyone knows that if we are to provide unremunerative but vital services in the countryside the cost must be met out of the common pool, at the expense of undertakings which are making a reasonable profit. The problem in the agricultural areas is one of providing uneconomic services the cost of which must be met by those
  1846
  sections of the transport system which can afford to set it off against their profits.
  Let us examine the position of the Carter Paterson parcel service. By the Act of 1953 this £7 million enterprise was put up for sale last October and prospective buyers were given until 25th January to bid. Not one single tender was received. This service has grown in size since nationalisation to 4,000 motor vehicles and trailers. It is three times its former size. A network of interlocking services was set up, fresh routes were started, and in the first six months of 1955 it made a net profit of about £462,000. It is estimated that for the full year this section of the nationalised transport industry will make a profit of about £1 million.
  I ask the Minister, seriously, what public service will be rendered if the Government persist in selling the shares of this undertaking? The shares may well put money into the pockets of private investors at the expense of the financial position of British transport, but the serious problem will still remain to be solved by the Minister. I am anxious to find a practical solution in the interests of the nation and of every section of the community. I am sure that both employers of labour and the trade unions wish to see some stability in our transport industry. Nothing is more harmful than a state of uncertainty about ownership.
  When the 1953 Act was before Parliament, hon. Members on this side of the House suggested that a public inquiry should be held. The Government rejected that suggestion. In view of all the serious implications arising from this problem of transport and in view of its vital importance to commerce and the very life of the nation, I wish to ask the Minister whether he will consider, with his colleagues, the desirability of setting up a Royal Commission to examine impartially the whole question. The Commission should have wide terms of reference so that it may survey the whole field of transport. Meanwhile, the present position should remain unaltered. Let the Transport Commission retain control of the undertakings which it operates today.
  I have spoken in almost every debate on transport which we have had in this House in recent years. I have tried to

  1847
  make a serious contribution to the solution of this difficult problem. I urge the Minister and the Government to think again about this matter. There is nothing which has a greater effect upon the economic life of the nation than our transport industry. The Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Prime Minister cannot talk about the danger of wages chasing prices or vice versa; it is no use any responsible Minister appealing for restraint on the part of industry and organised labour, unless the Government are prepared to set an example.
  By dealing with the transport problem, by setting up a Royal Commission to investigate the matter and to discover what the nation requires, and what is best suited to industry, the Government will give a lead which will inspire confidence throughout the country. Transport may very well decide our economic future. If the cost of transporting coal, iron and steel, and all the other materials which we export, continues to rise we may well price ourselves out of the export market. Our industrial position will then be very serious.
  I ask the Minister very seriously to consider the points which have been made. The more we investigate the transport system and strive to find a solution of its problems, the more we are serving the national interests. I am not so much concerned about political issues in this matter. I am concerned about the men who are employed in the industry, who do not want to have their employers constantly changed. Within the road transport industry—whether it be passenger or goods—we have a type of workman who is prepared to play the game. These people are prepared to serve the nation well, and they ought to be given a fair deal.
  They can be given a fair deal only if we set up a Royal Commission to examine this vast industry, and do not make too much of a political issue out of the recommendations which it later places before the House. We must see that there is no question of putting on Government or Opposition Whips; the House must survey the whole position. The Royal Commission must have the advice of the big industrialists, the T.U.C., and those unions which are concerned in the industry.
  1848
  This is a glorious chance for the Government to say, "We are trying to settle this problem once and for all upon a basis of common sense and common understanding." If they do that we shall all be happier. Transport is the very lifeblood of our nation, and if we allow it to flow away in wasteful tides we shall run the risk of destroying the nation's prosperity.
  5.33 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: In recent years, any Measure dealing with transport has tended to engender heat in this House and, judging by the violence of the language of the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies), this debate may follow in that tradition. This happens because there is a fundamental difference of view between those who pay at least lip-service to the theory of nationalisation and the integration of transport under a centrally-owned authority, and those who, on this side of the House, believe that the travelling public and traders are best served by private enterprise and competition.
  However violent may have been the language used in such debates, any outside observer will have noticed that when it came to action neither side pressed its arguments to their logical conclusions. I have repeatedly pointed out that, whatever may have been the express intention of Section 3 of the Transport Act of 1947, that Act never gave the British Transport Commission sufficient powers to produce that "properly integrated system of public inland transport for passengers and goods" to which Section 3 referred, because large parts of inland transport—such as C licence holders and municipal bus undertakings—were not touched by the Act.
  If the hon. Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy) really thinks that British Road Services, as set up under the 1947 Act, were capable to paying for the very great cost of the modernisation of rail transport, he will have to refer to the conditions as they existed under that Act, because the amount of money available from that source was much too small to do anything of the sort.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: Whatever makes the hon. Gentleman think that that was the intention of the 1947 Act? It was never suggested that one section of the transport industry should pay for

  1849
  another. The suggestion was that there should be a general pooling of the finances of the Commission.
  Mr. Wilson: I respectfully suggest that the hon. Member was not listening to his hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, East, because he quite clearly indicated that he thought that the road services could pay for railway modernisation. That is a preposterous proposition; it could never have been so.
  Mr. McLeavy: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not wish to misrepresent what I said. I made no such statement. I referred only to the question of making a contribution towards the common pool. If the hon. Gentleman misunderstood my speech, I am sorry. No one, by any stretch of imagination, could suggest that a mere contribution from the profits of the road haulage side would meet all the costs of railway modernisation.
  Mr. Wilson: I am glad that the hon. Member has cleared up that point. If I went beyond what he represented I withdraw my remarks, but when he reads the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow he will find that it was possible to put that construction on what he said.
  On the other hand, whatever may have been the popular impression, the Government by their Transport Act of 1953 never set out completely to de-nationalise even road haulage, since that Act left a large section of road haulage in the hands of the British Transport Commission. In other words, when it came to practical results, our debates have been concerned not with whether there should be nationalisation or private enterprise in transport, but to what degree a compromise should be reached between two strongly opposed theories. Each side naturally pressed for a compromise more in favour of its own theory than that of its opponent. This seems to be the British way, and it is quite a reasonable way, because only if the Government of the day take some notice of the strongly held opinions of its opponents can democracy work.
  I have said that the 1953 Act did not provide for the complete denationalisation of road haulage. It actually went some distance further in the direction of de-nationalisation than could have been expected from the Conservative Party Election pledge of 1951,
  1850
  as set out in "Britain Strong and Free," which has already been quoted by the Joint Parliamentary Secretary. I would remind hon. Members opposite that we not only said that public and private enterprise will be needed in transport, but we placed in the forefront of our proposals the removal of the 25-mile limit. That limit was subsequently removed. We next referred to publicly-owned transport being made subject to the control of licensing authorities upon the same terms as were private hauliers, which has also been done, and finished up by stating that the existence of some genuine competition would make it reasonable to give those in control of publicly-owned transport greater freedom in charging. Greater freedom in charging has been permitted to the railways as a result of the 1953 Act.
  Thus, to complete our Election pledge, the question now is how far we have made it possible for genuine competition to take place between private enterprise and the nationalised section of the industry. There is bound to be a difference of opinion in relation to the distance we should go in that direction to complete our pledge, but I suggest that any question whether the Bill has gone too far in providing for competition or not far enough is a Committee point.
  Hon. Members opposite seem to think that we have gone too far, because they would like everything to be retained while some hon. Members on this side think that an excessive number of vehicles has been retained, even if it is desirable that the present trunk services should in no way be disturbed. There are also those who feel that it is questionable whether the industries of this country have not put an undue weight on the value of the present trunk services.
  Mr. James Harrison: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. What I should like to put to him is this. I know that the hon. Gentleman is Chairman of the Conservative Party Transport Group, and that is why we are particularly concerned about what he has been saying. We feel that there have been no voluntary arrangements on the part of the Government in this set-up. We feel that they have disposed of as many lorries and as many of the B.R.S. assets as they could, and, having reached

  1851
  the limit, they now come to the House with this Bill to cover up their defects or their inability to sell.
  Mr. Wilson: That really is an interjection arising from the hon. Gentleman's imagination. He cannot have listened to the opening speech of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, from which it was perfectly clear that these lorries could be sold tomorrow and that we could continue to sell them in small lots. The only argument is whether it is desirable in the national interest to preserve the existing trunk services. That is quite clear from the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary. If we look at the lists of the sales that have taken place since the General Election, we find that the proportion of vehicles sold is very high indeed, and that the three sales since the General Election provide nothing to indicate that the sale of lorries in small lots could not go on.
  Mr. H. Hynd: Why does the hon. Gentleman say that the Government do not want to sell? If they did not want to sell these lorries, why, in fact, did they put them up to sell and find they could not sell them?
  Mr. Wilson: I am not saying that we did not want to sell them. I was replying to the interjection of the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend, who implied that the lorries could not be sold. That is not so. They could be sold, and some hon. Members think that, if slightly different arrangements had been made, they could be sold in bigger lots than in fact has been the case.
  I am not proposing to go into that argument at all, but merely pointing out that I have already suggested that hon. Members on this side of the House at any rate should concentrate on seeing how far this Bill does provide for more genuine competition between the remaining sections of the nationalised industry and private enterprise. If it does provide genuine competition, then it certainly falls in with our theories about transport. We believe that competition stimulates a better service, and if the results will be a better service, then that is all we want for the public.
  On the other hand, I venture to suggest to hon. Members opposite that it is really quite useless for them to pursue the argument as if what they expected to happen
  1852
  was complete nationalisation—the hon. Member for Bradford, East has left the Chamber, but he used the words "unification of transport." Not only are they not in the least likely to get it, but they never could have done so under their own Act of 1947. Therefore, it is much better, I suggest, that they should concentrate on seeing how the nationalised section which is still left in being can be run in a businesslike and efficient manner.
  There are other features of this Bill which will receive a greater degree of commendation from a wider section of the House. I think that hon. Members on both sides will be very glad to see that the Transport Levy is coming to an end. It is to be noted that whereas some people think the amount of compensation in connection with the Transport Levy is not sufficient to compensate the B.T.C., there is a very strong expression of opinion that it is too much. If that be so, it suggests to me that it is quite likely that the Government are somewhere about right in suggesting a figure which on the one hand is thought to be too high and on the other to be too little. It may be that they are very near the real figure of the reasonable amount of compensation.
  Again, in Clause 2, there is provision in regard to selling the shares of companies under Section 5 of the 1953 Act, which can be done otherwise than in one parcel. A number of hon. Members have already referred to this point, and I think there will be a considerable degree of appreciation of this improvement on the 1953 Act. Although it applies only—or appears to apply chiefly—to companies envisaged by Section 5 of the 1953 Act, it is quite clear that a number of people, and not only in the Conservative Party, have been wondering whether an extension of the company system to transport with mixed ownership may not be a good thing in opening the way to political peace in the transport industry, which the hon. Member for Bradford, East so well commended to the House.
  I have made this point before, and I do not apologise for referring to it briefly again. My own experience as a servant of the Great Western Railway before the war was that the co-operation of the railway company and bus undertakings in the management of jointly owned bus companies worked very well and still continues to work well after nationalisation

  1853
  as between the B.T.C. and private enterprise. It may well be that co-operation between private enterprise and the nationalised industry in the running of other transport services by means of companies in which both have financial interests might be a very good thing. In so far as this Clause of the Bill tends in that direction, a number of people will welcome it.
  I return to the point which I made at the beginning, and suggest to hon. Members that, instead of arguing about what happened in the past and whether this is going back to nationalisation more than was envisaged by the 1953 Act or is not going far enough towards nationalisation, we should concentrate on seeing whether we can make this into a Bill which will provide a more efficient service by giving a degree of competition between the two sides of the transport industry.
  5.48 p.m.
  Mr. James Harrison: I should like very sincerely to believe that the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson) has modified his views on the nationalisation or de-nationalisation of transport to the extent which he has suggested this afternoon. I can remember our earlier arguments on these matters, and I remember very vividly the attitude of the hon. Member for Truro on this question of nationalisation.
  When I interjected a few moments ago to say that I did not think this was a voluntary compromise, I did so in the knowledge of the submissions of hon. Members opposite over the last five or six years. I could not imagine any voluntary compromise on this question of nationalisation, and the illustration is quite forceful as far as the hon. Member for Truro is concerned, because he was an employee of a railway undertaking before nationalisation.
  Mr. G. Wilson: And also after nationalisation for one year.
  Mr. Harrison: I was about to recall that, as an employee of a nationalised undertaking, the hon. Gentleman came to my constituency shortly after the railways had been nationalised. He told us in Nottingham with great gusto and oratory that, owing to the fact that the railways had been nationalised, he himself felt no longer able to serve as an employee. When the Parliamentary Secretary spoke
  1854
  of ideological grounds I think that he meant prejudice against public ownership, but I have never known a shabbier example of prejudice against a national undertaking——
  Mr. G. Wilson: The hon. Member has made a personal attack on me. I do not know whether he was a member of my audience at Nottingham—I did not have the pleasure of knowing him then, so I could not know—but I think that I recollect the incident to which he refers. I said that I found I could not continue to work in a nationalised industry because I was then a Conservative candidate, and it was not appropriate that an employee of one of the nationalised industries should be publicly criticising them.
  Mr. Harrison: That is a very important admission for the hon. Member to make. I had intended later to congratulate him by pointing out how far we had brought him over the years from that rather unfortunate position. Let us look at the other side of the picture as he has just described it. If I, as an employee of the nationalised railways, said when it was proposed to denationalise them, "If you denationalise the railways I shall cease to be an employee," I should be adopting an attitude similar to that which the hon. Member then took up. If the drivers of these lorries said, "If you denationalise, we will not work for you," I should call it a form of sabotage, and, though we sometimes make these comments rather lightheartedly, these matters are very serious in their effect on the national economy.
  I remember the arguments we had in 1953, and I think that it would have been a good idea had the Government put up the present Colonial Secretary to reply in this debate. It would have been most interesting.
  Mr. D. Jones: Or the Minister of Pensions.
  Mr. Harrison: I prefer the Colonial Secretary. He piloted the 1953 Bill through the House, and it is astonishing to read some of the comments he then made.
  I remember going with a photographer to one of the big road haulage depots in Nottingham because, having listened to the debate here, I was quite sure that the mountain of prejudice against

  1855
  nationalised industries would guarantee that B.R.S. would soon disappear. I wished to make a photographic record of what I knew to be the wonderful success of a nationalised undertaking. When the managers and administrative staff at the depot asked what I was doing I replied, "I have come to get a permanent record of something that is to pass away." They did not believe me. They said, "Believe us, friend, we are not going to pass away."
  They told me that quite a large number of the most prominent firms in the City of Nottingham, and round about, had indicated to B.R.S. officials and to the Government that they could not envisage anything which would replace the tremendous service given by the then new B.R.S. At that time they had confidence that the Government would not destroy the institution which had been set up. I regret that after all these years the Government have been forcd into the position about which we warned them when the 1953 Act was passed. It is a great pity, because my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy) stressed over and over again the vital importance of transport in our general economy.
  I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to the announcement, made today for the first time, that a limited company has been established to deal with the meat side of B.R.S The announcement in the Financial Times says that the British Transport Commission is not yet able to say how it will dispose of that part of its assets, that it appears to be awaiting guidance from the Ministry as to their final disposal and that this limited company was formed yesterday to deal with the matter. It will be illuminating and helpful if the Minister will say something about what is to be done before this valuable asset is finally sold.
  We are debating now merely the sequel to other discussions. Time and time again we have listened to those hon. Members below the Gangway who are particularly interested in traffic telling us that they want to introduce some form of competition into the road services.
  Mr. Nabarro: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Harrison: Personally, I am very pleased that the Government have
  1856
  brought forward this Bill. It means that we shall avoid the complete wrecking of cur road services, particularly the long-distance services which are the most valuable. Retaining the long-distance services means only that the short-distance feeder services are being hived off. Nevertheless, to keep intact the long-distance services has become vital to the industry, and I am very pleased that the Government have recognised the need for keeping that part of the organisation going before the long-distance services were completely destroyed.
  I know that it is not good Parliamentary manners to refer critically to a maiden speech, but at least I can say that I am looking forward to an opportunity of talking in Committee to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George), especially on transport matters. To help him on such things would be a very well-worth-while task.
  There is another matter to which I should like to refer. I am told that a suggestion has come from road haulage interests that the Bill in its present form should be passed but that the operation of its terms should be delayed for twelve months, and that month by month during that period the lorries of British Road Services should again be put up for sale. I gathered that from the report in the Financial Times today. I gathered that application will be made during Committee or at some other period in our proceedings to delay the operation of the Bill, and that, during that delay, each month the assets of the B.R.S. will be put up for sale to see if a reasonable bid can be obtained.
  The biggest part of the British Road Services organisation had not been in existence for twelve months before it was threatened with extinction by the 1953 Bill. Most of the organisation had not existed for twelve months when the Bill was introduced. Hon. Members opposite are now suggesting that we should keep this indecision hanging over the organisation for a further twelve months. Is it not clear to everybody who knows anything about transport that it is remarkable that, despite all these deterrents to good organisation and all these difficulties, the operations of British Road Services have functioned to such an extent that hundreds of firms have pleaded for their restoration and they have made a profit?

  1857
  Imagine what the services could be if, instead of being threatened every month with extinction, they were encouraged by the Government to proceed with their organisation. Imagine what could be done. When my hon. Friends from this side of the House sit on the other side of the House, it will not be a question of imagination; we will show the House what can be done.
  6.2 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Hirst: I trust that the hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. J. Harrison) will have a long time in which to cogitate over his imagination. Apart from that comment of his, I think we have generally enjoyed his speech, although it is going a little too far to say that most of the B.R.S. organisation had not got going by 1953. We will let that go, but it was a little exaggeration.
  I want to return for a moment—and I will not be long—to the speech of the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies). It was a very interesting speech, and some of it reminded me of the cadet who scrounged a few extra rounds at the end of a field day and proceeded to fire them off haphazardly into what he supposed to be the target area. Certainly one of those rounds he fired at me.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to this as an unnecessary Bill, apart from Clause 1. I was a little confused; at times he said it was unnecessary and at other times he said it bore out exactly what he had told us in 1952. One way or another, it is difficult to see what hon. Members opposite wanted and what they did not want.
  I must say that for some time I have held the view myself that a good deal of what is in this Bill is unnecessary. Indeed, if the Government at the time of the 1953 Act had been prepared to go as far as some of us thought desirable—and I am acknowledged to be one who thought they should—in making what I call a bigger job of the show and in taking some of the powers which they now take in Clause 2 and running certain trunk services through company formation, they would not have had much difficulty in disposing of those trunk services. Some troubles flow from the difficulty of disposal; that I will not deny. It is well known from my speeches in the country
  1858
  and in the House, and I do not want to hide behind the views which I held. To that extent, of course, I look upon the Bill as unnecessary.
  I was deeply concerned about it and, as has been announced, I had in mind some form of reasoned Amendment to the Second Reading, partly because of the views which I have long held and, partly because I received a considerable number of completely unsolicited complaints long before the letter which I sent out.
  In view of the opinions which had been expressed in certain quarters, I quite frankly thought it only reasonable to send out my letter. I do not want any plaudits for it, but hon. Members know that one does not take action hostile to one's own party without being reasonably satisfied that one's case is sound. Surely that is elementary. I therefore decided to send out a number of copies of a printed letter to a considerable number of firms—about 240. I received over 200 replies. The letter was sent out pretty well to every quarter of the country. I selected the firms as broadly as I could throughout England and the Lowlands of Scotland, and to a certain extent Wales, too.
  The replies were extremely interesting. I will be straight with the House: more than half expressed considerable satisfaction with the B.R.S. service. Of course I had a number of complaints, but I will not read them out and make a splash of them. What was much more important—and if the hon. Member for Enfield. East had appreciated my reasons they might have attracted rather kinder remarks from him; not that I mind what he said—I wanted to get a general appreciation of the situation before I took the action which I was contemplating.
  I received those replies and, combined with my conversations with the new Minister of Transport, I decided not to table an Amendment. I must say that I have found the new Minister extremely reasonable and flexible to talk to; he is approaching this matter in a thoroughly sensible, and, as far as possible, entirely non-party way. I personally considered, after these conversations, that the action which I had contemplated was not only wrong but could not be upheld in fact.
  That ought to be fair enough for hon. Members opposite. Here again, I am being factual, and if the hon. Member for

  1859
  Enfield, East doubts my words, all these letters can be considered by an independent source, although I promised the firms not to use their names. I will leave out those who had some quibble about the service, but certainly 75 per cent. of the people who were satisfied gratuitously and of their own account mentioned in the letters that this considerable improvement had dated substantially from the passing of the 1953 Act. In other words, there had been the spur of competition.
  It does not matter where it came from; I am not trying to make a party point, but simply to give the facts disclosed to me in those letters; and those letters revealed that this competition had put B.R.S. on their toes and, as a result, B.R.S. were giving a much better service than some, perhaps including myself, had appreciated. Equally, it had been a spur to new entrants into the private sector of the industry, and the sum total was an infinitely better service in every quarter. That is a perfectly candid and straightforward answer to the hon. Member's attack.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: I appreciate the way in which the hon. Member is handling this, but in view of his earlier remarks that he wanted an appreciation of the services of B.R.S., why did he put this sentence in his letter:
  "This applies more especially if your experience has occasioned serious delays."
  Does he not consider that a leading question with the purpose of seeking complaints and not seeking appreciation?
  Mr. Hirst: Not in the least. I was not seeking appreciation or complaints; I wanted to know to what degree they were satisfied and to what degree they were not satisfied.
  Mr. Davies: Elementary.
  Mr. Hirst: It may be elementary to the hon. Gentleman, since a good many things are elementary to him. What is elementary to me is that it is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask people whether they are receiving satisfactory service or whether they are receiving a number of complaints. Those were the two alternatives I wanted to know, and I make no apology for putting the question in that way. I received exactly the answer I
  1860
  wanted, and it enabled me to take the decision which I have taken. That is a perfectly clear explanation, and I will deal with the subject no more. I have been perfectly honest with the House.
  Mr. Jack Jones Mr. Jack Jones (Rotherham)rose——
  Mr. Hirst: I would rather not give way.
  I must put the House in possession of this additional information, which was entirely unsolicited; there is no reference to it in the letter, as the hon. Member for Enfield, East knows. In nearly every single instance where the parcels service was mentioned at all, and that would be in about 25 per cent. or 33 per cent. of the letters, they went on to say that this degree of satisfaction did not apply in anything like the same degree to the parcels service.
  The great mass of the complaints, such as they are, and some of them are quite severe, applied to the parcels service. That is interesting because this was quite a broad investigation carried out on an area basis all over the country, taking three to fifteen firms according to the size of the area. I am quoting it now because it will interest the Minister to know the extent to which, from the same sources as other people are quoting in defence of the transport service, there is a mandate for continuing to deal more effectively in one form or another—I am not going to say exactly how—with the parcels service.
  That clearly came out in these letters. I support the powers contained in Clause 2 and the Schedule of the Bill on the very basis that I myself argued and wanted for the whole of the scheme. There is only one thing that appeals on a private business footing and that is to decide what is a satisfactory and sensible operating unit in the interests of transport generally, and then allow it to run so that there are figures available to enable the service to be judged on a profits and loss basis. That has never been properly available in the ordinary service. I support that, and I want to see a much greater degree of competition in the parcels service which is not proving as satisfactory a section of B.R.S. as the other sections admittedly more or less are.
  I shall not go into mourning if the Minister decides that the Road Haulage Disposal Board is to go in demise. I should like to see some better instrument for this purpose. I think that it had to

  1861
  drag its feet somewhat at the request of B.R.S. Be that as it may, the Board has not the confidence of the buying public. That has not necessarily anything to do with the personnel but arises from the set-up under the Act. I think we should have a better hope of dealing with the situation if there were a new system. That is only a suggestion.
  I will not argue now about the number of lorries for B.R.S., but I must give notice that in Committee I might suggest a slight variation in the number. Whatever number is decided, I think that as far as possible they should be hived off to a certain degree from the day-to-day management of B.T.C. and operated on conditions and in circumstances such as are within the field of the 1948 Companies Act in such a way as to give a little more confidence to the private sector of transport, so that the private sector may know that competition is on an even keel.
  I know that it could be argued that the division has been made more or less on a fair lorry basis in terms of numbers, but it has been divided up rather like a milk bottle; if it is firmly shaken it is all right, but if it is not firmly shaken the cream comes to the top. The cream then remains with the B.T.C. and competition is not on a level keel. That may have to be so. Ordinarily I would deprecate it to a certain extent, but in the decisions which are being forced upon me by the logic of argument, the force of circumstances and the opinion of a great section of the industry, I realise that that may have to be so.
  If it has to be so, I want as far as possible some organisation which will ensure reasonable competition in licence matters, etc., so that motors or lorries cannot be run about the country to jam up or dilute the situation locally from the point of view of licences. If that sort of thing arose it would not be satisfactory. I have every reason to think that the Minister of Transport will do his best to meet the demand of both sides of the House, and I think that he will go a long way, so far as I am concerned, in supporting the wisdom, if I may say so humbly, of the position that I took.
  6.16 p.m.
  Mr. David Jones: I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Hirst) was damning this
  1862
  Bill with faint praise or praising it with faint damns. It is quite clear that if the hon. Member had been conscientious and wanted a real opinion he would not only have sent this questionnaire to the British Road Service depots but also to the private operators, the customers of the private operators, and the employees of private operators, to find out what they had to say. After saying that, I now leave the hon. Member to his right hon. Friend on the Front Bench.
  I want now to turn to the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson), and to get this on the record. He reminded me of a little boy in a Devonshire village, whistling on a dark night to make himself brave. He tried to persuade himself and his constituents that the Government did not denationalise the whole of the road haulage service. All that was left of the British Transport Commission under the original Bill was 2,341 vehicles out of 36,736 vehicles. The bulk of the vehicles left to the British Transport Commission were either used in the cartage and delivery from railway stations or were vehicles used for special purposes.
  The hon. Member said that the Government did not completely de-nationalise road transport. It is a pity that he did not remember the Bill which he voted for so assiduously in 1953. Section 1 (1) of that Act states:
  "Subject to the provisions of this Act, it shall be the duty of the British Transport Commission … to dispose, as quickly as is reasonably practicable, of all the property held by them for the purposes of so much of their undertaking as is at the passing of this Act carried on through the Road Haulage Executive."
  Mr. G. Wilson: Subject to the provisions of this Act.
  Mr. Jones: Certainly, but the Road Haulage' Disposal Board was given the specific responsibility of breaking up the Road Haulage Executive completely. I think that the hon. Member for Shipley was unfair to the Road Haulage Disposal Board. It tried to do an impossible job in the best way it could, and I think that he was a little unfair to the Chairman of that Board and his colleagues when he used the words which he did about them.
  Mr. Hirst: I was careful to say that this had nothing to do with the personnel, but with the machinery under which the Board was set up.
  Mr. Jones: If the hon. Member agrees with me that the Road Haulage Disposal Board was given an impossible task to undertake, then I would agree with him at once. I, at least, had the satisfaction of going into the Lobby to prevent the Road Haulage Disposal Board from being set up, but the hon. Member cannot claim that to his credit.
  Mr. Hirst: I do not want to.
  Mr. Jones: This is what Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve said in his First Report:
  "The Act imposes upon the Commission the duty of disposing of the whole of its existing road haulage undertaking as quickly as is reasonably practicable. In performing this duty the Commission are to consult the Board on certain defined matters, and on those matters are to act on lines settled from time to time with the approval of the Board and also to act in accordance with detailed approvals given by the Board."
  Then the hon. Member for Truro went on to say, "We could sell these vehicles if we wanted to do so." Of course, the Parliamentary Secretary said that they could be sold as second-hand vehicles in ones or twos. The hon. Member ought to read the information available to him. The Fourth Report of the Road Haulage Disposal Board states:
  "Almost all of the vehicles available for sale in transport units or companies have now been put on offer at least once, except for the Parcels Company which will be offered in October. Some 47 per cent. of the vehicles have been offered twice or more. Considerably more than half of those offered have been sold."
  Then, in the last Report—which I hope will be the last Report of the Road Haulage Disposal Board, because I can see no purpose for its retention any longer—it is stated:
  "In our last Report we were able to indicate that 24,569 vehicles had been put on offer at least once and of those 15,008 had been sold."
  Mr. G. Wilson: Is the hon. Member aware that I referred particularly to the three lists put up since the General Election and that the percentages of vehicles sold were—List 12, 76 per cent.; List 13, 96 per cent.; and List R6, 88 per cent.?
  Mr. Jones: Yes, I agree, but is the hon. Member also aware that of all the vehicles that have been sold nearly 14,000 out of 18,200 have been sold in lots of not more than nine—in ones, twos, threes, fours, up to nine? Only 272 were in lots of between forty and fifty and 676 in lots of fifty or more?
  1864
  Before the hon. Member for Shipley leaves the Chamber, I want to remind him of another matter. I have a recollection that when the 1953 Bill was going through the House the hon. Member challenged my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Champion) when my hon. Friend produced a document issued by the Associated British Chambers of Commerce in which that organisation warned the Government that if they broke up the trunk services they would be imperilling the economy of the country. That document was produced and the hon. Member went on to say that, as the ex-chairman of Leeds Chamber of Commerce, he was dissociating himself from it.
  It is a fact that at that time the organisation made a statement and warned the predecessor of the present Minister, now the Colonial Secretary, that if he went on with the task of breaking up the trunk services it would affect the economy of the country.
  Mr. Hirst: The hon. Member has looked up his reference fairly well, but not quite accurately. What I was dealing with at that time on the Second Reading of the 1953 Measure was the statement issued by the A.B.C.C, which I was able to indicate had not actually received the support of individual chambers of commerce. It is a different story now. This time the A.B.C.C. has made a statement and, as I have indicated today, it broadly agrees with public opinion.
  Mr. Jones: I suggest that the hon. Member should re-read the debate. It was the Transport Committee of the A.B.C.C. which issued a document, which was in the hands of the Minister of Transport, in which it warned the Government that to proceed with that Measure would in fact wreck the trunk services. I think it is also true that many times since then the organisation has warned the Government of what they would be doing if they persisted in selling off these vehicles in small lots of twos and threes. More than two years ago, in a Question, I reminded the predecessor of the Minister of Transport—the present Minister of Pensions and National Insurance—that the British Transport Commission was at that time having to take off some of its feeder services in order to make vehicles available for the market.

  1865
  It is no use hon. Members telling us now, "After all, we did not want to denationalise altogether; we only wanted partly to denationalise." The plain fact is that the Act of 1953 has completely failed to achieve its purpose. I cannot think of anyone on the Government Front Bench who could have done the job given to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary this afternoon better than he did. One would scarcely expect him, with his reputation, to come to the Dispatch Box in sackcloth and ashes, but one has to admit that he did not make a very good job of it. For instance, he talked of the small man returning to the industry. He took good care not to tell us how many new small men have come into the industry as the result of the sale of these vehicles. He took good care not to tell us that by far the bulk of the vehicles sold in small lots have been sold to people already in the industry before the 1953 Act was passed. Therefore, it is not only the big man who did not want to come back into the industry, but the small man as well.
  The Transport Act, 1953, came into operation on 6th May, 1953, and the Road Haulage Disposal Board started its task on 28th May. It has been in operation for approximately thirty-one months. May I remind hon. and right hon. Members of paragraph 8 of the Government White Paper? I do not absolve the present Minister altogether from some responsibility because he was the "pigeon post" sitting behind the Minister at that time. He must, therefore, accept some responsibility for the White Paper. The White Paper said:
  "The Government are convinced that the undertaking of the Road Haulage Executive set up under the Transport Act should revert to private enterprise. For this purpose it is proposed that the undertaking should be divided into operable units (including a suitable proportion of small units) and be offered to the public for disposal by open tender."
  That was in the White Paper in May, 1952; this job started in May, 1953.
  I am glad that at least some common sense has prevailed in Government circles. It was clear from the beginning that the Act was inevitably doomed to failure. Let us look at the circumstances under which it was born. It was conceived in a connection between the Colonial Secretary and the Road Haulage Association and suckled by the present
  1866
  Minister of Transport—two of the most doctrinaire politicians there have ever been in this House. Did we expect a Bill to succeed under those circumstances? What kind of offspring would anyone expect from parents of that kind? The hon. Friends of the Minister cannot escape responsibility——
  The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I do not want to interrupt the hon. Member, but I think there was a slight confusion of parentage in what he has just said.
  Mr. Jones: Probably there is, but I am glad that at least the right hon. Gentleman is going to perform the suffocating ceremony.
  The present Colonial Secretary said, on 3rd December, 1952:
  "The questionnaire put out by the Road Haulage Association among their 17,000 members, some time ago, elicited only 2,000 replies. Those 2,000 replies gave an indication of an interest in some 10,000 vehicles … We have had many indications to suggest that considerably more will be forthcoming to apply for these transport units."
  That is now four years ago. Shortly afterwards, on the same day the Minister said:
  "It is our hope that it will be possible to finish with the procedure of disposal by the end of the year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd December, 1952; Vol. 508, c. 1589–90.]
  The right hon. Gentleman meant 1953, not 1956.
  On 6th July, 1954, there was a debate in this House, on a Motion moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), which stated:
  "That this House, in view of the facts disclosed in the First and Second Reports of the Road Haulage Disposal Board and of the continued financial and operating success of British Road Services, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to abandon further sales of the vehicles and premises under the Transport Act, 1953."
  In July, 1954, the Government were invited by the Opposition to abandon the sales. I should like to quote one or two shining examples from some of the hon. Gentlemen who adorned the benches behind the Government. One of them was the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), who now adorns the Government Front Bench as Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry

  1867
  of Housing and Local Government. He had this to say:
  "When the Opposition, in this Motion, invite the Government to abandon further sales of vehicles and premises under the Transport Act of 1953, they are under no illusion, nor has the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) sought to create any, as to what that invitation amounts to. It is, in fact, a demand for the repeal of the 1953 Transport Act under which these sales must take place. That is embodied in Section 1 of the 1953 Transport Act."
  That is perfectly true.
  It would have saved a good deal of trouble to trade, commerce and industry, and to the Government, had they listened to the Opposition at that time. What they are now doing, a year and a half later, is precisely what the Opposition asked them to do in July, 1954. The hon. Member who is now Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government went on to say:
  "However, the question to which the House must address itself today, and the question to which the public want to know the answer, is whether the experience of the last 12 months is such as to justify, let alone enforce, such a change of policy and opinion as to reverse the decision which the House took in the Transport Act of a year ago."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th July, 1954; Vol. 529, c. 1986.]
  How much trouble and headache would it have saved the present Minister and his predecessor had they listened to the Opposition in July, 1954?
  The hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Cole), in the same debate, at the conclusion of his speech, said:
  "I believe that in one or two years' time hon. Members opposite—who now think that they are having such a wonderful time at the expense of other people—will live to regret the remarks they are making today and will find that the argument behind the Motion has not been justified."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th July, 1954; Vol. 529, c. 2022.]
  Will the hon. Member repeat that tonight?
  Mr. Norman Cole: Yes, if I have the chance.
  Mr. Jones: Let me turn to the right hon. Gentleman who was then the Minister but is now Secretary of State for the Colonies. In winding up the debate, he said:
  "We were prepared to face the inevitable disturbances caused, but we have not been prepared to undo the Act, and I hope that in the light of these circumstances the House will reject the Motion."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th July, 1954; Vol. 529, c. 2032.]
  1868
  Naturally, the very obedient hon. Gentlemen who were then sitting behind the Minister responded to that invitation and voted down the Motion. Would it not have been better if that Motion had been carried?
  Let us take the latest example. On 10th November, 1954, my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) asked the present Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, who was then Minister of Transport,
  "when it is proposed to introduce legislation to terminate sales of road vehicles owned by the British Transport Commission."
  The right hon. Gentleman replied:
  "The only such proposals of which I have heard are those of the hon. Gentleman and his friends. The time of their introduction is, therefore, so remote as to amount to the merest speculation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th November, 1954; Vol. 532, c. 1182.]
  Would it not have been an advantage to trade, industry and commerce if the right hon. Gentleman had not been quite so doctrinaire on that occasion, and had accepted the advice that was being tendered to him? Could he not see at that time, in November, 1954, a year ago, that the sale of the Road Haulage Executive's assets was doomed to failure, and that even up to that point the bulk of the vehicles which had been disposed of had been disposed of in small lots? They were being used to replace and to extend and expand undertakings already in the business. No new men, or only very few of them, were coming into the industry.
  I understand there are rumours that the figure of 7,750, which was contained in the statement of Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve, is to be reduced——
  Mr. Ernest Davies: By 7½per cent.
  Mr. Jones: —in response to pressure from hon. Members behind the Minister. Are the Government being really fair to Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve? After all, when the present Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, as Minister of Transport, realised that the vehicles were not being disposed of, he decided to remit the matter to the Chairman of the Disposal Board. It was examined, I assume, by Sir Malcolm, in his own efficient way, and he reached a conclusion. Are we being fair to that eminent gentleman to say, "Well, you took the responsibility of ascertaining the figure"?

  1869
  I well remember that during the Summer Recess, when the Report was announced, I made it my business to write to the Ministry of Transport to ask for a copy, and I got a copy of Sir Malcolm's Report. That Report, I presume, was arrived at after careful consideration of the situation and all that it entailed. Can we have some more explanation, when the right hon. Gentleman winds up the debate, as to why it is now proposed to reduce the figure by 7½per cent.? Is there any logical reason? I understand that the figure of 7,750, allowing for the necessary spare vehicles, is the minimum required to maintain the basic trunk services.
  Why do not the Government "come clean" in this matter? They must now realise that all their preconceived notions on this matter have been proved completely wrong. Why is it necessary, even in the Bill, to endeavour to hamstring the Commission with a lot of regulations? Why does not the right hon. Gentleman, new to his job, come to the House and say, "We have been proved wrong in this job. The trunk services are necessary for the industry and commerce of the country." This is the answer to one or two of the speakers on his own side of the House who suggest that the organisation should be broken up. If the 7,750 vehicles are broken up into units of 50 or 100 vehicles, how are we to have an integrated trunk service all over the country? Perhaps the Minister will direct his attention to that when he replies.
  I was more than interested a week or two ago to read a letter in Motor Transport of 28th January which stated that 280 business firms had shown a substantial measure of agreement with the desire to leave the trunk services now run by British Road Services in the hands of B.R.S. Is that not sufficient indication for the right hon. Gentleman to leave these vehicles with the Commission? Is it not sufficient indication for him to cease trying to wrap them up with regulations, as he is proceeding to do?
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) will know the journal Motor Transport very well. At times, it treats him very kindly.
  Mr. Nabarro: And with very good reason. I always talk sense.
  Mr. Jones: I hope that the hon. Member will listen to what Motor Transport said on 3rd February:
  "British Road Services performed a useful service last week in drawing attention once more to the advantages of mechanical handling devices and their associated pallets. It was demonstrated to an audience of B.R.S. men and traders how these items of modern equipment can save time and money. Any machine which can do certain work at only part of the cost of a man's wages saves money, fatigue and tempers.… Are independent hauliers taking full advantage of mechanical handling equipment? In too few cases, we think, are they doing so. While a fork-lift truck, for example, will not show a saving if used for too short a time per day, it is an item of equipment which could effect considerable economies in many depots. If palletisation is out of the question the same machines without their forks but with clamps or other attachments substituted can still be a sound proposition."
  I hope that the hon. Member for Kidderminster will listen to the next part of the quotation:
  "It is futile for independent operators to make the excuse that they are not justified in mechanising because they are not as big an organisation as B.R.S. Some B.R.S. depots are no bigger than those of private operators. Even for really small operators there are some simple devices which can be of value."
  Mr. Nabarro: Would the hon. Member mind telling me where I come into all this? He started a quotation, lengthy and totally irrelevant, by saying that it should be directed to me because Motor Transport had referred to me. This quotation does nothing of the kind.
  Mr. Jones: What I said was that from time to time Motor Transport makes very kind references to the hon. Member.
  Mr. Nabarro: For very good reasons.
  Mr. Jones: Therefore, I presumed that the hon. Member thought that Motor Transport was a good source of information. I thought that I would convey this information to him as an indication that the private operators are not as efficient as the hon. Member sometimes would lead us to believe.
  Again, and this time directly for the benefit of the hon. Member for Kidderminster and others, I should like to quote from the Railway Gazette, which perhaps has not such a high opinion of the hon. Member. That journal said recently:
  "The principles of this Bill, despite backbench criticism of the Government, are the right ones. It would be foolish to split up an organisation which has earned the praise

  1871
  widely accorded to British Road Services. It is to be hoped that this Bill will become law and that opportunities for co-operation between the rail and the road services of the Commission will be taken to the full. If no offers for the parcels organisation are received, there may be a case for its retention also by the Commission."
  I welcome Clause 1, but there is no case for the hamstringing of the Commission by the regulations which are provided for in subsequent Clauses. There is no case for making the British Transport Commission carry any loss which might arise if the levy is terminated too soon. I welcome the Bill, and I hope that it will become law as quickly as possible, but I also hope that some of the Clauses will be altered in Committee.
  6.47 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Thomas: I was somewhat amazed and confused by some of the statements and arguments which we heard from the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies). He began by charging us on this side of the House with inconsistency in that we were now pursuing a policy which hon. Members opposite had advised us to pursue throughout the years that the transport services have been discussed in the House. He accused the Government of pursuing a vicious and vindictive policy. I find it somewhat difficult to justify that, particularly when the hon. Member indicated that probably this year B.R.S. would show a profit of about £4 million.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: I did not use the word "vicious," though I agree that I could have done. I used the word "vindictive." What I considered vindictive was the insistence upon facilitating the sale of the parcels and meat organisations contrary to the interests of the country.
  Mr. Thomas: I had another impression. The hon. Member indicated that he thought that B.R.S. would make this year the biggest profit in its history.
  Mr. Davies: No. It made £7 million last year.
  Mr. Thomas: Then a profit of £4 million, which was bigger than the average.
  Mr. Thomas Steele: In spite of difficulties.
  Mr. Thomas: We do not know the figures yet. We must wait until the
  1872
  accounts are published. They could quite possibly be very much bigger, but the profits which B.R.S. has made during the past two or three years have justified the whole purpose of the Transport Act, 1953.
  It is an extraordinary thing that during the past two years and more, whilst the B.T.C. has been selling off and has by today disposed of approximately half of its fleet, with all the disorganisation which was supposed to have resulted from all these things, its profits could have been maintained. In other words, the weaknesses and dangers of a monopoly, particularly a State monopoly, are exposed, in that the organisation was overloaded with vehicles and was not running efficiently.
  Mr. Davies: Rubbish.
  Mr. Thomas: The Bill clearly provides all the evidence that we as a Conservative Party are not guilty of the charge so often made from the benches opposite that we are governed by considerations of doctrine or dogma. We have amended our point of view. All the evidence goes to show that our policy today is directed to considerations of the practical problems of the economy.
  Mr. Davies: Because the Government could not sell.
  Mr. Thomas: No.
  I should like to make two points, to one of which the hon. Member for Enfield, East has referred. I should like the Minister to clarify one point in connection with the meat organisation. The following information is given, in Item 6, paragraph 5, of the Fifth Report of the Road Haulage Disposal Board:

  "Meat Vehicles on offer

  498

  Retainable under 1953 Act for purposes other than general haulage (Pickfords and contract hire)

  1,222"

  I always understood that the meat section was one of the five sections of the Pick-fords organisation. That organisation is highly successful. It has been operating successfully ever since it was taken over by the railways in their pre-nationalised form before the war. I should like to know the considerations upon which the former Minister of Transport came to the decision to break up that part of a very successful organisation.
  Mr. Steele: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Thomas: Yes, but if the Commission expressed the wish to break it up and the former Minister concurred, the House should consider whether or not the whole or each of the separate five parts of Pickfords should be sold. The meat organisation could probably not be sold, because it could not show a reasonable return on the capital figure required. I do not know, I have not seen the individual figures. But, in fairness to that section of private enterprise which wants to come back into the business, they must not only be offered the dross—that is, those things which the British Transport Commission cannot make profitable—but a little of the gilt as well. So I should like to know the facts upon which that decision was reached.
  Mr. G. A. Pargiter: Did I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that the bulk meat transport organisation was a part of the Pickfords organisation? My understanding was that it was set up in the war and has been operating ever since.
  Mr. Thomas: I do not think that I am wrong; my impression is that these meat vehicles which are to be sold are one of the five parts of the Pickfords organisation. The other four are furniture, tankers, heavy indivisible loads and special contracts.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: If the hon. Gentleman would look at the second report of the Road Haulage Disposal Board he will find the position explained there. There it is stated that the 530 vehicles are a part of the chartered meat pool under the meat control organisation. They have always been a separate part of the organisation.
  Mr. Thomas: I still think that these vehicles have come under the control and management of the Pickfords organisation. Perhaps the Minister will clarify the point when he replies?
  I am not one who feels that we must denationalise merely for the sake of doing so. I do not believe that this great road network would compete unfairly with the railway trunk services which have been built up over many years. In fact, the railway trunk services and the road trunk services today are complementary in the light of the change and
  1874
  expansion that has taken place in our economy.
  However, I am somewhat perturbed about the extra 4,500 vehicles making up the 7,750 that are to be retained. I have not been long in this House but it seems to me extraordinary that a specific figure in a matter of this kind should be placed in an Act of Parliament when that figure has no statistical background but is based on the opinion of one man only. I give first place to no one in my regard for Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve. He is a great public servant, a man who in this job as in others has been objective and impartial.
  Mr. D. Jones: Has the hon. Gentleman read the Report of Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve to the Minister? If he has not, I suggest he looks at it.
  Mr. Thomas: I have not read the Report but I have read the statement made by the Minister on 18th August. I was away at the time. My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) made a point in an interjection to the speech of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, and I want to emphasise it. This is the answer that Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve gave in the last words in that statement:
  "The answer to your reference to me is not, however, capable of mathematical answer. It involves a difficult matter of opinion."
  I respect his opinion but no man can say that he is always right, and I feel that if an opinion was required, not only Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve but possibly also the other members of the Board—in fact, the whole of the Disposal Board—should have been asked to make a recommendation on this point.
  I do not want to see this service fragmented but I can see that the B.R.S. could again be overloaded with too many vehicles, particularly of the heavy type, to the detriment of private haulage and the national economy. The method by which this figure has been arrived at is not satisfactory, and I suggest that the additional 4,500 vehicles which are now to be retained should not automatically receive A licences. Instead, application should be made for these by B.R.S. or the B.T.C. to the various licensing authorities. They are bodies with a wealth of experience, and all the knowledge of the districts and areas and their

  1875
  transport requirements, and these are coordinated in every way. By that means we would strike a happy and a truer balance in this matter.
  I was perturbed at the S.4 list but the Joint Parliamentary Secretary has cleared up that point. It is a pity that the decision not to offer these units a second time was not made before the S.4 list was offered for the first time. I feel that we have broken faith with certain members of the public who would have liked to tender and, after all, that was the consistent policy of the Disposal Board throughout all the other lists. So we can perhaps accept a charge of a breach of faith there.
  The problem of transport has been too long the shuttlecock of party politics, and, frankly, I agree with the general policy and principles underlying this Bill. The Bill will go a long way towards taking this industry, buffeted as it has been, out of the arena of party politics. Thereby it will create an atmosphere of security which the industry has not experienced for many years, and will enable it to proceed with the long-term planning of the road section, just as it has done for the railway side of its activities.
  6.58 p.m.
  Mr. H. Hynd: It is not often that hon. Members on this side of the House feel sorry for those on the other side, but this is one of the occasions when we almost do so——
  Mr. Ernest Davies: Only "almost"?
  Mr. Hynd: Yes, only almost. Today the Parliamentary Secretary has had to present this Bill, which has come as a great shock to the Road Haulage Association and to certain political interests opposite, and he was in the unfortunate position that he was not responsible for the original Act.
  The Minister who caused all the damage is not here but has been moved to another job. He was the one who was so vehement about the undoubted successes of the denationalisation of road haulage. It was he who said that anyone who even worked for the nationalised undertaking would be a quisling, but he has disappeared and left the unfortunate Parliamentary Secretary and the new Minister of Transport to hold the baby.
  We watched with great interest today the approach of the Parliamentary Secre-
  1876
  tary to the penitents' form, wondering how he would do this job. Would the hon. Gentleman come clean? He did not. He started by taking refuge in a very light tone, talking about walking the tightrope and being neither partial nor impartial. Then the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends behind him made a gallant effort to ride off on various improvised arguments and almost convinced themselves, if not the House, that the Bill was forecast in the Election programme called "Britain Strong and Free." If that was not the purpose of the argument I do not know what was.
  The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson)—I am sorry he is not here— following the same line, claimed that the Bill was a compromise. He said that the Government had made up their minds that it was in line with their policy to allow a certain number of vehicles to remain in the hands of the Commission and the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. L. Thomas) said words to the effect that they were approaching this from the practical point of view and that there was nothing doctrinaire about it. It was apparently decided in the Conservative transport group that it was necessary to allow the Commission to have a certain number of Bills.
  However, that flies directly in the face of the evidence, which is that the Commission tried to sell these vehicles under the orders of the Transport Act, 1953. The Disposal Board was forced to try to sell the vehicles. Fortunately for the country, it was unable to sell them all. Having failed to sell them, it is no good hon. Members opposite saying that they never intended to sell them in the first place and really wanted to have this pool of vehicles left in the hands of the Commission in order, as the hon. Member for Truro said, to provide for a certain amount of genuine competition. Was there ever such a hypocritical argument as that? They did not want the vehicles for genuine competition. They wanted to get rid of them, and it is only because they have been unable to do so that they have been compelled to bring in the Bill and shock their supporters.
  The Parliamentary Secretary used the words "rough justice." I do not understand what he meant by that phrase, but there is one Clause which recalls those words to my mind. It is Clause 7 which

  1877
  deals with the Transport Levy. If there was ever rough justice, it was the Transport Levy. Here was a special tax put on a section of industry that happened to run vehicles in order to pay for the loss which the Government knew would be incurred in selling these vehicles. We have had an estimate of about £12½ million. That £12½ million has had to be made up by people who had no connection at all with this business. The people who happened to run vehicles—municipal undertakings and others—were the people who had to provide the £12½ million, and that is rough justice with a vengeance. They will be delighted, as will everyone else, that it will at last be possible to terminate the Transport Levy.
  The Parliamentary Secretary skated rather lightly over Clause 2 and I hope that the Minister will tell us a little more about what is intended in this system of companies to which Clause 2 refers. Neither did the Parliamentary Secretary say enough about the worry and uncertainty caused in the last few years both to the Commission and its staff. It must be remembered that since the 1953 Act the many thousands of people who are employed on road services have been worrying about their future. Even now there are certain Clauses in the Bill which leave uncertainties. We must pay some attention to the feelings of the staff and try to let them know a little more definitely what they are to do in the future.
  A most extraordinary suggestion was made by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George). It was that there should be some kind of new system of local boards to run these services after they had been split. I do not know whether the hon. Member intends to develop that suggestion in Committee. It will be very interesting if he does, but I cannot see that the introduction of some new kind of machinery and another lot of officials—he suggested the appointment of other people—would improve the position. It seems to be introducing even more chaos into the chaos caused by the 1953 Act.
  I should like to refer to something said by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy) who appealed to the Government to have a Royal Commission which could go thoroughly into the matter. I regret that I am less opti-
  1878
  mistic than my hon. Friend about the utility of a new Royal Commission. We have had plenty of Royal Commissions on the transport services over many years and they have all reported roughly to the same effect, namely, that without some unification or co-ordination of transport we will never have a successful transport system. All their recommendations have been abandoned by the present Government and their predecessors of the same colour. They have ignored all the decisions of the Royal Commissions and I do not know how my hon. Friend can feel optimistic about a good result coming from another Royal Commission. I am, therefore, afraid that I cannot support him in that suggestion. We have all the information we need. We know all we want to know about the industry.
  I want for a moment to turn to what was said about the letter sent out by the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Hirst). It was a disgraceful letter. I have often wondered where hon. Members opposite found fiddling complaints about the nationalised industries which they have brought before the House from time to time. We have now had a glimpse of their methods. The letter was sent to more than 250 firms throughout the country. Did the hon. Member send them out on his own responsibility, as the ex-chairman of the Leeds Chamber of Commerce, or in his capacity in connection with the Federation of British Industries?
  Is it the custom of hon. Members opposite to circulate the country in this way and to say, "We hope in the near future to make a speech against some nationalised industry. Can you please provide some instance of bad administration so that we can bring it into our speech?" Is that the way it is done? That sort of thing should not be encouraged. It must have come as a shock to the hon. Member for Shipley when, as he admitted, more than half the firms expressed satisfaction with British Road Services. He attributed that, rather naively, to the fact that British Road Services has improved under the spur of competition since the 1953 Act. With that logic, had there been a 'flu epidemic in 1953, he would have attributed it to the 'flu epidemic of 1953. With your classical education, Mr. Speaker, which is much better than mine, you will know the saying post hoc ergo propter hoc. That is not the kind of argument that impresses us

  1879
  very much. The fact that something happened after something else, does not mean that the first caused the second.
  I want in a general sort of way to support one thing which the hon. Member for Canterbury said and to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred. It was about taking transport out of politics. In general I would agree with that and I would go on to ask, who brought transport into politics?—[HON. MEMBERS: "Your party did."] Not at all. This business of expecting that important industries and services will be nationalised when there is a Labour Govenment in office and denationalised when there is a Conservative Government in office must stop: there is no doubt about that. If hon. Members opposite are beginning to think along those lines, I am pleased about it; but when they say things like that and appeal to other hon. Members to be reasonable about this Bill, to look at it in a practical and objective way, and all the rest of, let them give a lead by accepting some of the Amendments to the Bill which obviously will be moved.
  Let them stop any further sales of these vehicles. If they propose to dissolve the Disposal Board, I say that they should stop any further sales here and now as a gesture towards arriving at agreement about the future of the industry. Let them abandon the idea of a 7½per cent. reduction which was suggested today. If they make a gesture of that kind, they may expect some co-operation. There will be many Amendments moved later and I hope that the Government will regard them in a reasonable way.
  This whole business of where the frontiers of nationalisation should lie is something which deserves serious consideration, not only in the transport industry but in other industries as well. I hope, as a result of the shock which the Government have received from the failure of their road haulage policy, they will at least begin to think about a planned future policy for public ownership. Let them survey the whole of the basic industries of the country and the essential public industries, and decide whether these should be regarded as something to be exploited privately or as public services. If they do, I am certain that there will be a response from hon. Members on this side of the House, which in the long run—although it will be a
  1880
  lengthy business—may lead to something of the kind I have suggested, with the possibility of abandoning this game of shuttlecock, where industries are nationalised under one Government, denationalised under the next, and renationalised when the first Government are returned to power. That just cannot continue.
  7.13 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Cole: I can answer one question put by the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd). Speaking for myself and, I believe, for my hon. Friends, I say that we do not think there should be nationalisation at all; therefore there is no question of where we should place the frontiers. But now that we have some nationalisation, we will try to make the best of it. May I remind the hon. Gentleman that if the Socialist Party, with its majority of about 200 in the 1945 Parliament, had not passed the Transport Act of 1947, we should not be debating this Bill tonight?
  Mr. H. Hynd: May I remind the hon. Gentleman that that matter had been debated by this party for years and that it was in our 1945 Election programme? Unlike the party opposite, we carried out our Election programme.
  Mr. Cole: If the party opposite had not passed the 1947 Transport Act, the whole question of transport would not have come into politics and the industry would have been a healthier and happier one today.
  The hon. Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy) reminded me of a remark I made in a similar debate two years ago, when I said that hon. Gentlemen opposite would live to regret their words. I do not know whether they do regret them. I do not know whether in this matter regret is within their mental capacity. But I do not regret what we have done. I am glad that we have proceeded with de-nationalisation for as long as we have. I am pleased that over 18,800 vehicles have been sold back to private enterprise within the last two years. Earlier in this debate an hon. Member opposite did a little specious figuring to prove that because only 18,000 vehicles had been sold and there were originally 36,000 vehicles available the sale had had only a 50 per cent. success. I shall not follow the hon. Member in

  1881
  the use of specious figures, but I will mention a couple of straight figures which may be checked.
  The actual number of vehicles available for sale, ordinary sale, leaving out those mentioned in this Bill, which include 3,600 allowed for in the 1953 Transport Act, and along with the special disposal arrangements for the special vehicles yet to be sold, the number of ordinary vehicles available is just over 19,000, of which 18,800 have been sold. In other words, there are a few hundred ordinary vehicles yet to be sold. I hasten to say that these figures allow for just over 9,000 vehicles in the present Bill.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: I have never heard such a specious argument as the hon. Gentleman is now advancing. The fact remains that when the 1953 Bill became an Act there were 36,000 vehicles operated by the Transport Commission, and 18,000 of them have been sold. Therefore, half the fleet has been sold. It is true that the 1953 Act allowed for just over 3,000 vehicles to be retained, but, apart from that, the rest have not been sold, and that is a fact.
  Mr. Cole: Yes, but from the arguments advanced by hon. Gentlemen opposite, it looks as though 36,000, less 3,600 is the number of ordinary vehicles. The hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) knows as well as I do that there are several classes, including the parcels fleet of over 4,000 vehicles, and a number of other special vehicles. In point of fact, of the ordinary vehicles, allowing for those in this Bill, almost 100 per cent., or over 18,800 out of just over 19,000, have been sold to hauliers. That does not suggest a complete failure in the operation of the 1953 Act.
  I suppose that I should not have expected anything better, but I have been rather disappointed that hon. Gentlemen opposite have missed a wonderful opportunity. Speakers from the benches opposite have spent their time voicing various adaptations of the words. "I told you so." The degree to which they have reiterated that has not been justified. If transport is more important to them than politics, would it not have been better to have had it recorded in HANSARD how they rose to the occasion and did their utmost to assist my right hon. Friend? But that opportunity has been missed, though I
  1882
  suppose one would not have expected anything else.
  We shall proceed with this Bill. The hon. Member for Enfield, East said that we had not been able to sell these vehicles. He knows that we could have proceeded to the end with that operation. We could have carried out completely the ideas and intentions contained in the 1953 Act, and the hon. Gentleman cannot deny that. But the difference between the actions of the previous Socialist Government and the line we are taking is that we have regard to the larger issues rather than to the carrying out of doctrinaire intentions 100 per cent.
  This Bill requires far more political courage and statesmanship than would a Bill which merely pursued dogmatic beliefs to the very end. If my right hon. Friend had moved a Bill to wind up the Disposal Board, knowing in his heart that the almost 100 per cent. sale of vehicles had taken place under all kinds of conditions in order to make sure that they were sold, he might be a more popular man, but he would not feel so happy about it.
  Mr. H. Hynd: If those vehicles, having been put up for sale, had been sold at the first offer, where would the interest of the nation have come in?
  Mr. Cole: Is the hon. Gentleman referring to the list of last March—S.4—or all the lists?
  Mr. Hynd: The vehicles which are now unsold.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: The parcels vehicles included.
  Mr. Cole: If those vehicles had been sold—as we believed they would, under the 1953 Act—to hauliers all over the country, the transport situation would be much better than it is at the moment.
  Like most people who are firm and unrepentant believers in private enterprise, and who believe that this country is where it is today not because of nationalisation but because of the success of private enterprise in the past and at the present day, I have naturally given much thought to the Bill. I have said that it represents a statesmanlike action. It can be called a compromise, perhaps, but as a nation we are masters of compromise, for the common good, and the Bill represents that kind of compromise.

  1883
  We have had to consider the practical results which would be brought about if the trunk services were broken up, and have come to the conclusion that the Bill needs to be brought forward—leaving out any question of politics.
  After some study and consideration of the matter for many months, I am fortified in my argument by the thought that we have done much of what we promised to do in the 1953 Act. We all know that the 25-mile limit has been brought to an end. In addition, the British Transport Commission has been made subject to the licensing system, and the levy will come to an end at the end of December of this year. No one will be sorry to see the back of it, and this aspect will not be overlooked by private enterprise hauliers.
  I should like to put forward a few general points for the earnest consideration of the Minister. There has been much talk today of the figure of 7,750, mentioned in paragraph (b, iii) of subsection (1) of Clause 1. I wonder if it is possible to arrive at a closer approximation to the number of vehicles actually used on the services to which we are referring. I appreciate that this is a complicated matter, but if we could have some accurate statistics, based upon fact, I should be a happier person—and I believe that the Bill would be more palatable.
  I commend the 7½ per cent. limitation. The hon. Member for Accrington asked why this limitation was being imposed. He thought that the idea ought to be abandoned. The limitation is not unreasonable, because 400 or 500 vehicles of the Commission's fleet are out of use at any time, for various reasons.
  Mr. Strauss: Would the hon. Member apply that principle to the fleets of vehicles kept by private enterprise, many of which consist of several hundred vehicles?
  Mr. Cole: The right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) must forgive me if I say that I believe that many private enterprise firms, big and small, could not afford to pay licences for vehicles which they were not running. I doubt whether that is true of the Commission.
  Mr. Strauss: The hon. Gentleman is making this a point of principle. Does he suggest that it would be proper that 7½per cent. of the fleets of private companies—many of them very substantial fleets—should be refused A licences on the ground that that percentage is normally being repaired?
  Mr. Cole: No, I do not, and if the right hon. Gentleman likes to accuse me of advocating unfair competition against the Commisson, I accept it. The Commission will have about 10,000 vehicles running. Unlike private enterprise vehicles, their licences are not restricted to the depots from which they operate. They are able to switch their vehicles all over the country. The ordinary private haulier has no such flexibility in this respect. For that reason he has a right to some kind of special concession.
  As one of the safeguards which could be put into the Bill, I suggest that my right hon. Friend should consider providing that any licences for which the Commission apply and which are granted will have to indicate upon them the bases from which the vehicles concerned will operate. A provision should be inserted which will prevent the Commission having carte blanche in the matter of using its vehicles in any part of the country. I do not blame the Commission for using that carte blanche and switching its vehicles about, but private hauliers would be happier if they were on all fours in the matter of the application of licences.
  I have already referred to what I regard as the most important point which can be made today, namely, the mixing up of transport with politics. Let us forget who started it. I have my own opinion, and I have expressed it. Let us only remember that the country is experiencing considerable economic difficulties at the moment. We want to overcome those difficulties and be able to look forward to an era of increasing prosperity for the next twenty years. If we are to have this transport question continually bedevilled by politics, be it by this Government or one of a different colour, our attempt to achieve such prosperity will be continually delayed.
  Would it not be a fine thing if, with the passing of this Bill, hon. Members on both sides of the House adopted a broader outlook and made a mental resolution

  1885
  that there would be no more politics in transport, irrespective of any future Government, and that both nationalised and private enterprise transport—which both have their experts—should be allowed to compete side by side with a minimum amount of interference from politicians?
  7.29 p.m.
  Mr. Thomas Steele: I listened to the hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Cole) with some interest and amazement. His speech was typical of the sort of speech which hon. Members opposite make upon public platforms, when they try to indicate to the general public that they have the national interests at heart and hon. Members on this side have not, because of their doctrinaire ideas.
  The hon. Member should refresh his memory by reading one of the speeches made by a member of his party who is no longer with us, namely, Lord Glyn, who spoke from the place now occupied by the hon. Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke). He said much about politics and transport, on which subjects he was a great authority. If I remember rightly, he spoke very bitterly against the introduction of the 1953 Bill. That is where politics come in.
  The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. L. Thomas) was very sound when he applied his mind to the practical application of the Bill and the practical problems of transport, but when he entered into the doctrinaire field and that of policy generally, he was not at all sure of himself. The hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South this evening stood up in his place, and was almost beating his chest and throwing out his arms, saying "I stand for private enterprise." Only a few minutes later, he was making an appeal to the Minister to limit the freedom of enterprise which is to be enjoyed by the British Transport Commission. The hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. If we are to have competition, then let us have competition, but what the hon. Gentleman says is "Let us have competition, but, at the same time, put something into the Bill to prevent the British Transport Commission having the opportunity of that competition."
  Mr. Cole: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to correct him. I asked why should not the licences issued to the British Transport Commission be
  1886
  the same type of licences as are issued to private hauliers.
  Mr. Steele: That was the purpose of the 1953 Act—to bring the British Transport Commission into that position. The hon. Gentleman added, after giving an indication of what a wonderful thing private enterprise is, that in any case we should act like statesmen and ought to make a compromise. Of course, the compromise which the hon. Gentleman indicated was along the lines that they tried in the 1953 Act to ensure that the British Transport Commission would be paralysed and demolished, that they were not successful, and so they had now decided to allow the Commission to retain a certain number of vehicles.
  The hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Hirst) really gave the game away entirely when he answered an interruption by my hon. Friend the Member for The Hartle-pools (Mr. D. Jones). The hon. Gentleman made it quite clear that his complaint was not that the vehicles were not sold under the 1953 Act, but, in effect, that the machinery under which the Disposal Board was set up made it impossible to sell them. Under the 1953 Act, the Disposal Board was set up, and there were certain guarantees. The Minister himself gave an assurance that the public interest would be looked after, and that these vehicles would not be got rid of at throw-away prices. That is the point, but the hon. Member for Shipley made it perfectly clear that that is exactly what he wanted—that the vehicles should be given away, and, in fact, that the British Transport Commission or B.R.S. should be completely demolished. It has always been the view of certain Members sitting on the Government Benches——
  Mr. John Hynd: All of them.
  Mr. Steele: Well, at least some of them. That has been their argument all the time, and there was an agitation against the Minister which was perhaps why the first Minister of Transport lost his post.
  May I say that the introduction of this Bill is a complete justification of the attitude of the Opposition, and particularly of those Scottish hon. Members who, in submitting an Amendment during the Committee stage of the 1953 Bill, attempted to have Scotland taken out of the Bill altogether? My hon. Friend the

  1887
  Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy) indicated that he would like to see a Royal Commission, but, like my hon. Friend the Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd), I am not at all in favour of any more Commissions.
  After the publication of the 1953 Bill, and before it received its Second Reading in the House, the Scottish Council for Development and Industry made an inquiry into this matter. The Scottish Council is composed of representatives of chambers of commerce and local authorities in Scotland and many other important people of that kind. Between the publication of the Bill and the Second Reading debate in this House, and in full knowledge of what the Bill proposed, the Council, as a result of this inquiry, said:
  "It would seem desirable that the Scottish transport authority should retain the ownership of the road haulage which is already publicly owned so that the authority can effectively integrate its road and rail services."
  My right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) and myself, together with other Scottish hon. Members, drew attention to the advice given by that Council, by the Glasgow Herald, The Scotsman and other representative newspapers in Scotland at the time, and also to the attitude of Scottish Conservative hon. Members who said that the Conservative objective was to reorganise and not disorganise the transport system.
  We have had only one speech from a Scottish hon. Member in support of the Government this afternoon. Unfortunately, it was a maiden speech, and in accordance with the courtesy which we show to a maiden speaker, I shall not criticise it. I hope, however, that the hon. Gentleman will speak during the Committee stage of the Bill, when we shall have the opportunity to question him. Where are all the Scottish hon. Members who support the Government and who spoke so vigorously behind the scenes when the 1953 Bill was going through this House, when there was all the going to and fro between the Tory Party and the Minister?
  The Scottish Council for Development and Industry was also involved, and ultimately some compromise was arrived at but the Tory Party did not always have the same kind of election literature as
  1888
  that which has been quoted by Government supporters this afternoon. In the literature of Scottish Conservative Members, they were committed to something very different, and I am sorry indeed that not one of them is in his place at the moment. In fact, I have not today seen any of them who have been either interested or prepared to take part in the debate on this matter. Therefore, I say that the attitude of the Opposition on this question, as on others, has been completely justified in view of the advice we gave to the Government during the passage of the 1953 Bill.
  The hon. Member for Shipley is to be congratulated on the way he came forward today and on the speech he made. The hon. Gentleman could very well have left it alone altogether, but he was brave enought to admit his error. At the same time, I think that the information which he gave was very interesting indeed, in view of the implications of the questionnaire which he sent out.
  During the Committee stage of the 1953 Bill my right hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire said that the B.R.S. depot at Dumfries had gained an award for being the most efficient depot. A prominent Sunday newspaper thereupon sent a representative throughout the town and the country solely to find out what complaints people might have against that Dumfries depot. He was unable to get any complaints at all but such action is typical of the Government supporters in transport affairs.
  The hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South said that today the attitude on this side has been one of "I told you so," but let us recall what we said during the passage of the 1953 Bill. We who are particularly interested in trade unionism said that the giving up of the conception envisaged in the 1947 Act and the handing back of these vehicles to private enterprise meant that the drivers of the vehicles would suffer. I think that all of us have evidence that that is what has happened.
  Only three weeks ago, when travelling from Glasgow to my home, I gave a lift to a fellow who wanted to go to Lark-hall. He told me that he and his brother were in the long-distance transport business. He was hurrying to see a relative who was seriously ill in Larkhall and he gave me the following facts. After

  1889
  having his lorry loaded in Glasgow he had travelled overnight to London, had gone round the various London depots, had distributed his goods, had then collected his return load and—that same evening—had travelled back from London to Glasgow.
  Many of us on this side of the House said that that sort of thing would happen and it is exactly what is happening. Anyone travelling on the main Glasgow—London road on a winter evening is in danger because of the presence of that kind of driver on the road. I know because I live on that main road and see the traffic on it. I was very happy yesterday to hear the Minister of Transport state in answer to a Question that many of these loads—and especially the overhanging loads—ought not to be on the roads at all but on the railways. It was because we believed in a properly integrated service that we passed the 1947 Act.
  The other argument we used was that many of the bases which had been built by British Road Services would, by the operation of the 1953 Act, be abandoned, and evidence of that has been produced today. I have a personal experience. A British Road Services depot very near to my own home was completed, staffed and operating successfully until the 1953 Act came into operation and the vehicles had to be sold.
  What happened? As the vehicles could not be sold as a unit with premises attached, they had to be sold separately. They were taken away and are now operating, as far as I know, in some other part of Scotland. Two road hauliers in the vicinity share the work of the base but, unfortunately, in neither of their depots do trade union conditions operate. I regret that the work done—taking miners to work in the morning, running lorries during the day, and then taking theatre parties at night—puts the conditions of the staff well outside the protection of any Transport Act.
  Before the passage of the 1953 Act the Scottish Conservative Members carried on an agitation because they were in some difficulty about promises which they had given to the electors, and they asked the then Minister of Transport to help them. He did so by announcing during the Second Reading debate that a Transport Council for Scotland would be set up.
  1890
  He inferred that it would cover private industry as well, but during the Committee stage he further announced that the Transport Council would be concerned only with publicly-owned transport.
  That announcement was made in 1953, and it has taken until 1956—in fact, until this week—for the Minister to be able to announce the formation of that Council. I only hope that the Minister read the comments of The Scotsman the day after his announcement. We on this side would like to know just what this Council is to do. Scottish Conservatives have looked to it to do a wonderful job, but we regard it only as a sop thrown to those Tories for their continued support of the Government's 1953 Act—and so does the Scottish Press.
  I should like the Minister to tell us something about this Council and whether it is hoped to bring private enterprise within its scope. Quite clearly, this new Transport Council will have no authority. It has no executive power at all and what difference there is between it and the Transport Advisory Committee I just do not know. It seems to be a duplication of effort, and a few more jobs for the boys. Nevertheless, the one great thing which this Bill does is to justify the arguments which we propounded in 1953, and, while the Conservative Party is trying to make the best case it can, the fact remains that the Bill is evidence of the failure of the 1953 Act.
  7.50 p.m.
  Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: I was particularly pleased to hear the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) say that the game of shuttlecock—nationalisation and denationalisation—must stop. I hope that will become the official policy of the Labour Party.
  I will not repeat the arguments of stale debates of 1947 and 1953—indeed, I was not in the House then—but I would point out that, as Members, we are all elected to serve the public interest. We may see the public interest in different ways, but I think many of us agree that it will be best served by taking transport out of politics in the future. This Bill is an honourable attempt to do that, and I hope that, perhaps after amendment, it will be accepted as the final solution to the problem. There are many interests in the country which want that. Industry has

  1891
  expressed, through the F.B.I., its wish that the trunk services should remain. No doubt the employees of the British Road Services want to feel that they have some security of employment.
  It would have been possible to go on selling these vehicles by dribs and drabs over the years until we had come down to the basic figure of 3,250 vehicles, but that course has not been taken, and in future a state of competitive co-existence will exist. I was very glad to see it welcomed in the speech of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George), which I think was well worth hearing.
  There are, however, some grounds for amendment of the Bill which should be considered in Committee. British Road Services, with 9,000 vehicles and 3,200 trailers, will be a giant among the minnows of the road haulage industry. Our job is to see fair competition between this great giant and the small firms of the industry—and they are small firms. About the largest which will remain outside the B.R.S. will have 200 to 300 vehicles.
  The B.R.S. will therefore be in a very powerful position and will start with some enormous advantages, first, in purchasing. When it buys a thousand vehicles a year—because it will be buying about that, and going perhaps to only three or four manufacturers for those vehicles—it will be in a very strong position. In my view, therefore, it will be able to buy those vehicles more cheaply than the ordinary haulier can buy his. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] I am asked "Why not?" I am only outlining some great advantages which this very big commercial concern will have vis-à-vis the other units in the industry.
  Mr. McLeavy: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that that also applies to the big combines and trusts in the industrial field? Because of their size they can purchase requirements much more cheaply than the smaller man. If he is proposing some limitation on the British Transport Commission, does he propose to apply it to the Unilever combine and all the other big combines in the country?
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: I am well aware of that, but the size of fleets in industry is numbered generally in hundreds. There is not such a great disparity in industry
  1892
  as in this case—a disparity between 9,000 and 200 vehicles. I suggest that that disparity might well lead to unfairness.
  Mr. McLeavy: Where is the unfairness?
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: I will come to that in a minute.
  It is the usual practice in industry for discounts to be given on the supply of materials, according either to the size of the fleet or the size of the purchase. In the purchase of tyres, this very big unit will be enormous buyers, and in consequence will get the largest possible discount. Further, I see that in 1954 British Road Services bought 67 million gallons of diesel fuel and petrol. In the future it will be buying, I estimate, about 40 million gallons a year. The largest competitor in road haulage will be buying less than a million gallons of diesel fuel and petrol. Here, again, this great giant will be in a powerful bargaining position vis-á-vis the smaller companies and will be able to buy its fuel at a much lower price.
  All these benefits, together with facilities for cheap capital, will give it enormous advantages over the private haulier, and I therefore suggest that we should consider whether we should not introduce some limitation on the possible growth of British Road Services in the future. It might be perfectly fair to say that its fleet should be limited in tonnage and in numbers. It might be limited to the number set out in Clause 1. The 3,200 trailers perhaps ought to be limited in tonnage as well as in numbers, perhaps to two tons unladen weight each trailer.
  In all its history, British Road Services, with its emphasis on trunking services, has been buying bigger and bigger vehicles. That has been the policy from the start. I saw, in Commercial Motor of 16th September, 1955, a report on the buying policy of B.R.S.:
  "B.R.S. have already placed orders worth £3 million for Leyland vehicles, the bulk of recent contracts being for Octopus models, over 600 of which have been demanded. The new vehicles are for 24-ton gross loads."
  That is the very largest possible vehicle.
  In considering whether there should be insistence on fair competition between the public utility and private enterprise, I asked myself whether there had ever

  1893
  been a precedent in previous Transport Acts, and I found that there had been a precedent both in the Act produced originally by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) and in the 1947 Act produced by the Socialist Government.
  In the old days, in the 1920s, the London General Omnibus Company had body-building shops at Chiswick. They were taken over by the London Passenger Transport Board. By Section 21 of the London Passenger Transport Board Act, 1933, provision was introduced whereby the new London Passenger Transport Board was not to manufacture more bodies than the old General Omnibus Company had manufactured at Chiswick in the 1920s. That was about 527 vehicles a year.
  That proviso against the growth of the public monopoly as opposed to private enterprise was carried forward into Section 2 (4, a and b) of the Transport Act, 1947, which reads:
  "the Commission—
  (b) shall not manufacture in any one financial year of the Commission, otherwise than for purposes of experiment or research, bodies for road vehicles in numbers exceeding—
  (i) in the case of bodies for passenger vehicles, one fifth of the total number of such bodies estimated to be required to be manufactured for use for the purposes of the Commission's undertaking during that year, with the addition of the number of omnibus bodies authorised to be manufactured under section twenty-one of the London Passenger Transport Act, 1933;"
  That is 527 vehicles.
  Under the Act produced by the Socialist Government which came into force in 1947 there was laid down—I think quite properly—a limitation between public enterprise and private enterprise. I suggest that that precedent might well be applied when we reach the Committee stage of this Bill, and I would ask the Minister to consider that point.
  I should like to support the limitation being proposed that B.R.S. should be placed on exactly the same basis as the private hauliers in that the licences should specify the bases from which the vehicles operate, so that the strength of its fleets is known in the same way as that of private enterprise. I think that is perfectly fair.
  1894
  Therefore, I ask my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to convey to the Minister a strong plea that this great giant, because that is what it will be should be controlled, otherwise it may gobble up the whole of the haulage industry: I ask that he should put limits on its growth to prevent it from becoming, as it may become, a complete monopoly of the road haulage industry in the future.
  8.1 p.m.
  Mr. G. A. Pargiter: The speeches which we have heard, and particularly the last one, have been most interesting. In many ways they have little to do with the substance of the Bill but they indicated what is in the minds of right hon. and hon. Members opposite with regard to transport policy and the idea of taking it out of politics. It looks as though in a relatively short period we shall get a new Minister of Transport and a new change of policy. I am wondering how long the present Minister will last, and how long it will be before we get another change of policy, because a change is obviously in the minds of many hon. Members opposite, according to the speeches which they have been making.
  Reference has been made, particularly by hon. Members opposite, to the question of 7½per cent. reduction in licences on the principle that a certain number of vehicles are off the road for repairs and maintenance. That is introducing an entirely new feature into the licensing system, and if it is to be introduced it must be dealt with as a matter of principle and not as a matter of expediency by the Front Bench opposite, and as a sop to their back benchers whereby they can say they have reduced the number of B.R.S. licences by 600 by the 7½per cent. reduction.
  My recollection is that the percentage of vehicles off the road for repair before the war was about 5 per cent., if they were being properly maintained. We know that in many cases they were not properly maintained and there might not be that number off the road. It might be a good thing if, generally speaking, in the application for licences a percentage of vehicles was regarded as being off the road and not available. That would ensure better maintenance than we get today. I should be inclined to advocate it if it were to be general and not a punitive measure adopted against one

  1895
  body of hauliers while allowing private hauliers to run vehicles at a risk.
  Apparently 7½ per cent. is to be the figure for B.R.S. We shall not get a better repairs organisation than that of B.R.S. There are some good private companies, but in the main I would say that there are very few that come up to B.R.S. in their standard of maintenance. I will accept the view that, provided that it is to be a principle, it may well be a good one in the interests of road safety and of maintaining vehicles in good condition, but I cannot conceive that it is a good thing to do with regard to one organisation. It was argued that it is right to cut down British Road Services because we had been told that there was a probability that it would make £4 million profit this year, and that if it could make that profit it obviously had too many vehicles before. The answer was that when B.R.S. had more vehicles it made £7 million profit, and seven to four is a pretty good ratio when we consider the number of vehicles now operating against the number previously in operation. It looks as though B.R.S. is operating pretty efficiently, and that it was operating efficiently before.
  The hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) will know about B.E.F.. and he will not be unaware of other organisations which operated in a very big way on the passenger side. Does he not think that B.R.S. should be able to operate in the same way as firms in private industry? We must be able to do a thing or not able to do it. If large organisations are good they remain good whether in public hands or private hands. They may do better in public hands because the public will not be exploited.
  I do not think that in the matter of trunk services the private haulier can hope to compete with British Road Services even if it has fewer vehicles than at present. That is why many private hauliers have not gone in for the trunk service; they know that they would not be able to compete with British Road Services.
  The fact that B.R.S. will get enough vehicles to run its organisation efficiently means that there will be more competition from it and less ability for the very small organisation to earn profits at all,
  1896
  not because they will charge less or because British Road Services will not charge a proper figure. It will be a question of the facilities which they have available. We have heard this argument about vehicles being tied to their bases in British Road Services. One of the things which hon. Members opposite talk about particularly is restrictive practices. Could there be a worse restrictive practice than tying vehicles to one place when there is a shortage in another?
  One of the advantages which we have here is the advantage of flexibility. If vehicles are required more in one place than another the answer is to shift the vehicles to do the work. Under B.R.S. there has been far less empty running time on vehicles than under private enterprise. That is another fact that must be borne in mind in relation to the question of maintaining the services.
  I now come to the doctrinaire policy that the parcels service must be disposed of. The parcels service started in a pretty fair way when it was taken over. It was no longer a private organisation at all; it was the Carter Paterson organisation. That has been extended and developed until it has given a service to traders all over the country which they do not want to lose. When the 1953 Bill was presented, and there was the possibility of that service being broken up, the Government were faced with petitions from traders, saying," This is of great value to us and something we do not want to lose." We have reached a position now when it is undesirable to break it up.
  We cannot sell it in one piece because no one is prepared to take the risk of buying it so far as private enterprise is concerned, and therefore it is said, "We will form a company and farm out the shares so that private people can have the profits that the service will make." All this does not make sense when we look at it in conjunction with the rest of the transport problem.
  Who is going to help the railways out of their problem? We know that until modernisation has gone on for a number of years the railways cannot possibly make a profit if they are to give a proper service. That will be so for a long time. Here we have a complementary service which could run in conjunction with the railways for which we have a Commission, which could allocate traffic to a very considerable extent and organise the

  1897
  different requirements between road and rail transport. As a result, it is able to make a profit on one side which would go very much to help towards a loss on the other. Is there anything wrong in that? It is done in business every day.
  In any business which is concerned with a variety of products there are some which pay less than others, but it is essential that those sales should be maintained. There is nothing wrong with that in practice; it is part of the general pattern of industry. Why should a nationalised industry be deprived of the same sort of arrangements which every day are practised in private business?
  We have heard a lot of talk about taking this business out of politics. We only hear that when the Tories are in power and when there is opposition to the policies that they want to pursue. They have done exactly the same with steel. They say, "For goodness sake let us take it out of politics." They are quite hypocritical about this and there is not a shadow of honesty in any of the statements that they make about it. The only reason they have not denationalised other industries is because they cannot. Where would the railways be without nationalisation? Where would the coal industry be without nationalisation? We can look at the other side of the picture and ask how much better are the gas and electricity industries since they were nationalised than before. Look over the whole range——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member will not go over the whole range on the Second Reading of this Bill.
  Mr. Pargiter: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I was following rather closely some of the arguments which have been used, and nationalisation has been dealt with fairly generally. I will not pursue the question too widely except to draw an analogy.
  The analogy I want to draw is that the Government did not particularly want to denationalise electricity or gas or coal, because those industries are very helpful to industry and are probably more helpful when nationalised than they were under private control. Road transport is something which has been yielding a profit, and there is always an objection by hon.
  1898
  Members opposite to a service of this kind showing a profit for the public purse.
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: Did not the gas industry make a substantial profit under private enterprise?
  Hon. Members: Which gas industry?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That does not arise on the Second Reading of this Bill.
  Mr. J. Hynd: Which gas industry does the hon. Member mean—Twickenham?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Whichever gas industry it was, it does not arise on the Second Reading of this Bill.
  Mr. Pargiter: I am sorry that I am not permitted to reply, but some rather telling answers could be given.
  I turn to the question of the meat vehicles. Someone said that they were part of the Pickfords organisation. I would remind hon. and right hon. Members opposite of how the meat transport organisation came into being. There were a number of firms engaged in meat haulage and also a number of people engaged in carrying meat for their own organisation. On the outbreak of war the Government had to say, "This is a most inefficient method of carrying meat. We have to put all these vehicles together into a pool in order that meat can be more efficiently carried between the slaughterhouse and the butcher, and from the docks."
  It is now proposed that because the service is to be maintained a company should be formed and, because it will be profitable, people shall be able to buy shares. Therefore, instead of yielding a profit for the public purse the organisation will be yielding a profit to those who purchase shares. We find that because the Government have failed to dispose of these vehicles in the way in which they proposed to do so by the 1953 Act they now propose to hand a great deal of the profit to private individuals in another form. I suggest that during the Committee stage the Government might well look at that question.
  We welcome the proposal in regard to the vehicles to be maintained by British Road Services. It is because the Government do not know what else to do. That is the answer. We are glad to see that that is so. We can only express the

  1899
  hope that the Government will also see the wisdom of maintaining other complete units and leaving them under the control of the Commission, which has built them up very considerably from what they were and made them successful. It has been largely responsible for the success of the organisation. I suggest that the Government should abandon their political doctrine in this matter and give the nationalised transport industry a chance.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Gurden: Several things which I think are of importance to all of us have emerged from this debate. One thing I particularly noticed is that hon. Members opposite—some of them at any rate—have shown very clearly that, in spite of the last Election, they are still in favour of nationalisation. I do not know what the modern term is, whether it is tiddly-winks or Rugger, but I think hon. Members opposite ought to remember that there was a General Election and that the main body of the public certainly told us they did not want any more nationalisation.
  Mr. D. Jones: The hon. Member has referred to the last General Election. Will he tell us whether there was anything in his Election address about taking away housing subsidies?
  Mr. Gurden: I am quite sure, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, you would not like me to reply to that question on the Second Reading of this Bill. If there was anyone in this House who was obviously realistic—with both feet on the ground—about this matter, and who wanted to make a continued success of the road services, it was certainly the Minister in producing this Bill for Second Reading.
  Mr. Jones: It nationalises 8,000 vehicles.
  Mr. Gurden: The 1953 Act has at least given us back some competition and so brought back some efficiency into road haulage. That is the experience of the last two years.
  So many points have been discussed that I hope I shall not be repeating any of them; and I have not been able to be in the Chamber for the whole time. I should like to point out that the failure to dispose of the vehicles as envisaged in
  1900
  the 1953 Act was, in my opinion, through deliberate obstruction on someone's part, and I rather suspect B.R.S. because, obviously, it was an interested party. There were people in that organisation who had most to gain by preventing the sale of vehicles as far as possible. That was quite against the will of this House, but that did not seem to matter, and they have not been penalised for their misdeeds so far as I can see.
  To explain the point I am making, I should say that one of the groups of vehicles which was offered by the Disposal Board—I presume it was put up by B.R.S.—was a group of 26 vehicles which were carrying steel to the Briton Ferry Steel Works. When that group of vehicles was to be put up for sale—actually before the offers were made—B.R.S. approached that steel works pointing out that there was an impending sale of those vehicles. I am advised that that is quite true. B.R.S. officials arranged a contract with that steel firm to continue to carry the steel. The vehicles were subsequently sold, but the buyer had no work in that area for which they could be used.
  Earlier today, an hon. Member opposite complained about buyers taking over vehicles and transferring them to other parts of the country. The buyer of these 26 vehicles was forced to do that very thing simply because British Road Services had taken away his business by previously contracting with this steel works to carry its goods. That is sabotage of the 1953 Act. The buyer of these 26 ramshackle old vehicles bought them because he thought that he was going to do local business with them.
  We must remember that when the road hauliers were nationalised, British Road Services had the goodwill as well as the vehicles, whereas the buyer of these 26 vehicles paid more than book value for them. He was surely quite entitled to expect that on denationalisation there would be a return not only of the vehicles, but also of the business previously done with them. It is no use talking about vehicles being transferred from one part of the country to another when that sort of transaction has taken place.
  We also hear stories about British Road Services switching vehicles from one part of the country to another to suit its own purpose. I am rather nervous in case B.R.S. may continue to do this. I

  1901
  hope my right hon. Friend will see that there is not so much of this sort of sharp practice on the part of British Road Services, because, if it continues to transfer vehicles from one part of the country to another, it may well go to the licensing authority and show a need for vehicles in a place from which it has already taken some, and thus try to obtain more licences.
  As I have said, there has been a good deal of sharp practice which has forced the Government into this position. In another case, 28 vehicles were offered for sale, together with an office and a warehouse. The vehicles included one six-wheeler, two eight-wheelers, two tippers, one van, one tanker, three livestock vehicles, three furniture vans and one meat container. What sort of business is that to offer? Of course, British Road Services were hoping that the vehicles would not be sold, and this was a good way of defeating the 1953 Act.
  It was no use expecting the Disposal Board to be able properly to carry out its work when this sort of thing was going on. Half of the vehicles offered for sale in the past two years were about ten years old. As we know, the life of a transport vehicle is something like five or six years. After that, it depreciates into a pretty rough state and has to be renewed. If we look at Table 6 of the Report of the Disposal Board, we see that only about one in every eight or nine vehicles was manufactured within the last five or six years. More than 1,800 of the vehicles sold were manufactured before the war.
  What has happened to all the vehicles manufactured during the last five years? The B.R.S. has kept them. It did not offer them for sale because it wanted to retain the best and to sell off the scrap. These vehicles were not fit to run on the road. Why did the Disposal Board put us in this difficult position? I doubt whether it was the fault of the Board, but certainly somebody adopted some pretty sharp practice tactics of which I can imagine hon. Members opposite would have complained if that sort of thing had been done by private enterprise.
  Mr. G. Darling: It goes on every day with private enterprise.
  Mr. Gurden: I sincerely hope that my right hon. Friend will put British Road
  1902
  Services on to a proper business basis. In fact, I have every confidence that he will do so, and that after this Bill has become law he will make British Road Services enter into proper and fair competition, thus indicating to the trade that he means to have a good road service competing fairly in every way with all the traffic that is available.
  8.26 p.m.
  Mr. John Hynd: I listened with great interest to the hon. Member for Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden), and I must confess that I was surprised, as I have no doubt were other hon. Members, at his constant reference to sharp practice on the part of British Road Services. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that the alleged sharp practices to which he has referred were all matters under the supervision of the Disposal Board. The Disposal Board was charged with the responsibility of seeing that fair prices were asked when the vehicles were sold.
  To suggest that this matter was left in the hands of British Road Services, which it was the specific purpose of the 1953 Act to prevent by the establishment of the Disposal Board, is absolute nonsense. If the hon. Gentleman had taken any interest in the debate on the 1953 Act, he would know that the whole of the Government argument was that the Disposal Board was necessary because it would not leave the matter in the hands of British Road Services.
  The hon. Gentleman has given some curious examples of what he has described as sharp practice. He related how British Road Services had sold some vehicles to some person but had kept the traffic. Who made British Road Services keep the traffic? B.R.S. could not seize the traffic. The traffic was given to it by the firms who had previously had the traffic. Are these not private enterprise firms? Did they not want the best service? If they preferred to give the traffic to British Road Services, surely it is because they wanted cheaper and more efficient service and they knew that they could get it from British Road Services.
  The hon. Member said that British Road Services had sold ramshackle vehicles. I hope the Minister will look into this case and see where his beloved Disposal Board has failed in its duty. It has no right to allow the sale of a

  1903
  parcel of ramshackle vehicles, particularly when the prices charged were above the book value. But then the buyer was not forced to buy the vehicles. It was British Road Services which was forced to sell.
  Here is a story of so-called sharp practice by British Road Services, which has nothing to do with British Road Services, because it was not its responsibility. In any case, the trader was not forced to buy, but British Road Services was forced to sell. B.R.S. could not sell ramshackle vehicles, and it could not sell above the fair price without the authority of the Disposal Board. The trader preferred to give the traffic to the most efficient service. That is the complaint, and it is a curious charge against either British Road Services or the Disposal Board.
  The hon. Member for Selly Oak started by saying that he had made the great discovery that the Labour Party still believed in nationalisation. That is magnificent. One would have thought that it was known universally that the national ownership and control of the means of production in this country is basic to the Labour Party's case, and that without that principle there can be no implementation of Labour policy in this country or any other country. Social ownership and control of the means of life for the increase of production and the maintenance and improvement of the standard of living is the basis of Socialist policy. The hon. Member may say that it could not be carried out; he may say that that is a bad policy; but surely he knows that that is our policy, and that we believe in that policy? To say he is surprised to learn we still believe in nationalisation is to show a naïveté that is almost incredible.
  I would point out to him that we do believe in nationalisation, and that we shall continue to believe in nationalisation so long as we are a Socialist party, and that we carry out our pledges pertaining to those matters. We were returned to power in 1945 and again in 1950 with a programme based on the national ownership and control of the key industries, and we carried it out, What have the present Government done?
  Mr. John Baldock: Turned the Labour Party out.
  Mr. Hynd: I did not hear what the hon. Member said.
  Mr. D. Jones: My hon. Friend did not miss much.
  Mr. Hynd: The Government had no mandate for the 1953 Act. The Government passed the 1953 Act and went to the country in the General Election of 1955 apparently committed to carrying out the Act. Now what do they do? They come to the House now saying that they cannot carry it out or that they do not want to carry it out and that anyhow it is not going to be carried out. We on our side carry out our pledges, and we shall continue to carry them out, for otherwise we should be ashamed of ourselves as a political party.
  I think it was the hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Cole), who started his speech by saying that the game of shuttlecock with transport should stop. I can assure him that when the Labour Party is returned to power the game of shuttlecock with transport will stop, and it will be stopped in the only way in which it can be stopped, and that is by the complete nationalisation and co-ordination of all the means of inland transport in this country. I can assure him of that on behalf of all my right hon. and hon. Friends.
  If he thinks there is any other way of taking transport out of politics, he does not know much about transport history and must be unaware of the long and sad—indeed, tragic—story of the chaos in the transport industry of this country. The problem of transport has been and is growing in every other country where modernisation is advancing and where, consequently, transport is becoming a major factor in its life and economy. The history of transport in this country contains a long tale of Royal Commissions and various public inquiries undertaken to try to find an answer to the problem, a way to bring order into the chaos. Every one of them was driven by the logic of the economics of transport to the conclusion that there is only one solution to the problem, and that that is co-ordination of the means of transport, all of them, in a co-ordinated service.
  What the Tories are trying to do is what they have always tried to do and will always try to do so long as they remain a Tory Party—though from time

  1905
  to time we have thought we had seen little sparks of enlightenment amongst them, little signs that the young Tories were beginning to learn a little. However, what they have been trying to do, and what they continue to try to do, is to bind us tightly to nineteenth century notions and practices. They have found, as this Bill shows, that that just cannot be done, and now they themselves are being inevitably and irrevocably drawn to twentieth century methods. Their reluctance to be drawn to the twentieth century causes them to do much damage on their way and to leave much damage behind them. We see it over the whole range of our transport today.
  What is the cry from those benches opposite now? Hon and right hon. Members opposite want to spend millions of pounds building new trunk roads—to accommodate what? They want them to accommodate more and still more lorries running in competition with one another and with other transport services, causing more and more congestion on the roads and increasing the number of deaths and injuries on the roads, which are already over-crowded. That is nineteenth century economics in transport, and it will not do. The Bill is the latest piece of evidence that even the Conservative Party cannot get away with that.
  The hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) had some most interesting and enlightening contributions to make. He said that, even after this Measure, British Road Services will start with great advantages over smaller road haulier units of 100 or 200 vehicles; and he does not like that. He said that the great advantages will arise because the B.R.S. units will be bigger and better organised than the others, being a coordinated service under a central control, with the result that they will inevitably be cheaper to run and more efficient. The hon. Member said that that is not fair and that a more efficient and cheaper transport service is not required, and, therefore, British Road Services must be restricted until they are as inefficient and as expensive as the smaller units. That is the Tory transport policy.
  Surely if, because of their size, elasticity and central control, British Road Services, even the truncated edition with which we shall be left, will have great advantages in cheapness and efficiency over other units, the logic of the argument
  1906
  is that we ought to build the small units into as large and as co-ordinated a unit as possible, thereby enabling us to increase efficiency and still further reduce charges. That is what the Labour Party sought to do in its legislation, and it is what all public inquiries have decided is inevitable if our transport system is to survive on an efficient basis.
  What the hon. Member was admitting was that the Tory Party is not primarily— I emphasise the word—interested in securing the most efficient and cheapest national transport service. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) said during the 1950 General Election that the aim of the Conservative Party was to set the people free, to let each person win for himself what prizes he could obtain, and to let the best man win. That is the policy and philosophy of the Conservative Party. The establishment of the most efficient and cheapest transport service takes second place to its great purpose of scattering prizes to those who can win them. I am sure that in his heart every Conservative hon. Member must admit that that is so.
  Mr. G. Wilson: No.
  Mr. Hynd: I said "in his heart"; not "publicly." The logic of the argument of the hon. Member for Twickenham was that we must reduce the efficiency of British Road Services and increase their costs so that their competition with the more expensive and less efficient private services may be on an equal footing.
  The hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South said he did not believe in nationalisation at all and thought that in transport we ought to have complete denationalisation and complete private enterprise. He said that by the 1953 Act the Government had carried out their mandate. He seemed to overlook that what is happening now is part negation of the 1953 Act and, therefore, part reversal of his party's mandate.
  The reason why the Bill is now before the House should have been clear to the hon. Member, as it is to all Members on this side. It has been said over and over again that the 1953 Act has been a failure. I do not see why the Government should make any bones about it or why their supporters should try to hide the fact. The 1953 Act tried to dispose of all the nationalised road haulage services. It tried to get rid of the lot

  1907
  and to achieve the Tory Party's purpose of handing it back to private enterprise. But the Tory Party has not done it, not because the Conservatives did not want to do it, but because they have failed. That is the reason for the Bill.
  We can understand the argument of hon. Members opposite that they do not like nationalisation, but to try to argue that nationalisation is necessarily inefficient does not square either with the Bill or with the fact that even in the 1953 Act the party opposite still left the railways in public hands. If members of the party opposite were such champions of private enterprise and really believed that it was necessarily more efficient and better in the public interest than nationally co-ordinated enterprise, particularly in transport, why leave the railways in public hands? They have never tried to answer that one.
  Railways are very closely bound up with the 1953 Act and with the Bill. I speak as a railwayman, and I tell the Government that one of the reasons why the railwaymen are so concerned about the attempts to break up the road services is not that the railwaymen thereby will gain anything to their particular advantage, as might be assumed if the Tory argument were correct—that railwaymen would welcome the nationalisation of road haulage, for it would stir up the railways, provide a better service and bring about higher incomes, better wages and more security of employment; the railwaymen are primarily concerned, as they always have been—one needs only to refer to their decisions in annual conference over the last 50 years—not for what they will get out of it, but because they subscribe to the Socialist conception of society. They want for the public, for society and for industry the most efficient and co-ordinated service. That is why they are so concerned lest the Bill should go through—and it will have to go through, because we cannot oppose it—because it breaks up the 1953 Act.
  If the Bill has got to go through, a number of Amendments must be made to ensure that what remains of the British Road Services will have a fair chance. All that the Bill does is to save what is left of the wreck created by the 1953 Act.
  The Government would not for one moment attempt to argue that the figures
  1908
  they have given of the number of vehicles to be retained, or the calculation in the Bill for the new format of what remains of British Road Services, is a logical or businesslike calculation to make the most efficient service. They will not say that it has all been worked out as the kind of national road system to provide the best service and to be the cheapest and most efficient, for they know that what is in the Bill is simply the bits and pieces that are left from the failure of their own 1953 Act. There is nothing ordered or premeditated about it.
  The Government cannot dispose of the bits and pieces that remain of the 1953 Act. Because even what remains, as hon. Members opposite have several times admitted, could still be made more efficient than all the private services that are being built up, the Government produce the Bill to tie it all up and put an end to the folly of 1953.
  The cream of the British Road Services was taken away after all the organisation and trouble put into building an efficient, co-ordinated and national service under the British Transport Commission. The original intention was to build, in coordination with the railways, an overall system in which there would be balanced charges and services, standards of employment and wages and the rest. Glowing tributes were paid to that work not only by private enterprise but by Ministers, who spoke of the high standard of efficiency achieved even after a few years. Now, having failed completely to destroy that work, the Government, by means of this Bill, are trying to tie together the remaining bits and pieces into a service which, I repeat, will still be more efficient than were private units.
  But having done all that, the Government are still seeking, by means of the Bill, to strangle and hamper these services in every possible way. They are bringing into the Bill the same kind of penal legislation which they tried to impose in the Transport Act, 1953, when they even went so far as to include a provision in the first draft of the Bill which favoured the coastal shipping services and the road hauliers who were losing traffic as against the more efficient nationalised transport service. When customers felt that the railways were charging so low a figure as to be too competitive with the coastal service and road

  1909
  transport and damaging to traffic on those two services, traders could appeal to a court to force the railways to increase their charges to a more equitable figure. At the same time, if the railways were charging too high a figure, their customers could appeal to the same court to have those rates lowered.
  All the penal provisions were against the railways, but no appeal was possible against the charges made by the coastal shipping services. Fortunately, we on this side of the House were able to remove that provision. We hope that in Committee we shall also be able to remove the penal provisions of this Bill.
  I appeal to the Minister to have some consideration for the national interest in this matter. Is British Road Services to be curtailed to this extent, and are the Government insisting that this is to be the end, that there is to be no repeal of the 1953 Act and no opportunity for British Road Services to expand and extend, as it ought to be able to do, and build an even more efficient and much cheaper service? If that is to be the case, I appeal to the Government to let British Road Services have at least a fair run with what it has got.
  We on this side of the House cannot oppose the Bill, because it saves something from the wreck. There are many points which we shall have to oppose in Committee. Many Amendments will have to be moved. Despite our long experience of the Tory Party's attitude to nationalisation and private enterprise, I hope that our efforts in Committee will bring forth a better scheme than is now incorporated in the Bill. I hope that it will be a scheme which will allow us to give fair play and a chance to British Road Services, not to compete with private owners for it can do that anyhow, but to give the maximum service, even with this truncated system, in the national interest.
  8.50 p.m.
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: We have been treated to a dissertation on dialectical materialism of which the relevance was only related to the remarks you made earlier, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, when you said that we should not discuss gas. It was a speech of which twenty minutes or half an hour was irrelevant from beginning to end—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] It was a
  1910
  speech which was singularly unfortunate and right out of temper with all other hon. Members on both sides of the House who have spoken.
  Mr. D. Jones: On a point of order. Is it in order for the hon. Gentleman to impute to you that you permitted my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) to continue speaking when he was outside the scope of the Bill?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I did not gather that the hon. Member was making any imputation as far as I was concerned.
  Mr. D. Jones: No, but he was suggesting it.
  Mr. Rees-Davies: On the contrary, I was paying a decorous compliment, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to the relevance of your earlier remarks. The speech of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) was unfortunate, because it attempted to destroy the spirit we have created in the last few months, in the Road Transport Bill and in other Bills, of trying to get as far as possible a non-partisan approach.
  Mr. J. Hynd: Nonsense.
  Mr. Rees-Davies: I would not say for a moment that in this case it is possible to get a non-partisan approach, because there is a fundamental ideology concerned here. I want to make some practical and constructive remarks on this Bill.
  I welcome the Bill in its general out line. I welcome the abolition of the Transport Levy. The views I shall express in relation to the Bill, although entirely my own views for which I accept full responsibility, are none the less expressed on behalf of the two major long-distance private road haulage organisations of this country. One is the Road Haulage Association, with which I have been in consultation recently over this matter. The other is the National Conference of Road Transport Clearing Houses, of which conference I have the honour to be president. In putting forward these views I have the accord of what is virtually the whole of the long-distance men who are private operators.
  I shall take two separate themes and I shall try to deal with them shortly. Because of time I will not give way, if

  1911
  I may say that in advance. First, I say emphatically—I am not in the industry myself and so I am looking at it entirely impartially and taking a purely objective view of the facts, not of the question of opinion—that I have no doubt that these men have not had an opportunity to buy the trunk services, and it would be false to say that they have had any reasonable opportunity to do so.
  I shall develop that first point and then go on to say that I believe the danger of the future—the matter which is of paramount interest—is to ensure that the State through the British Road Services shall not become too big a competitor as against the private section of the industry; or, put the other way, that there should be fair competition between the two sectors, the public and the private. If the Bill goes through in its present form there is no doubt that we shall be setting up what is virtually a monopoly and we shall be giving the cream of the trunk routes to B.R.S.
  Before establishing those two matters I want to state the two principles. The first principle was stated by the Minister in opening the debate, namely, that there should be an opportunity to come back into the business, as stated in our party manifesto in 1951. The second was that conditions of monopoly would be avoided. As to the rest, I am not interested in the party politics of the matter in the slightest. Those were the two simple pledges, and I believe that it is the view of the Government that those two pledges should be carried out.
  I do not believe that in this Bill there is any intention to abrogate either of those pledges and I am convinced that the Minister will be satisfied if he can fulfill them. I most earnestly beg the Minister, during the present Bill's progress through Parliament, to give the men in the industry one last opportunity to buy the units that have never yet been offered under fair terms.
  Mr. Ernest Davies: They were offered.
  Mr. Rees-Davies: Let me come to it. I have all the facts. I want an opportunity for those men, while the present Act is still current, to have an opportunity to purchase the vehicles which they were entitled to have a right to buy under the Transport Act, 1953.
  1912
  The second point is that I hope the Minister will look into conditions for the future to see that we do not get a monopoly. As to that I want later to make six very short suggestions. I must be brief, because time is very limited. In regard to the opportunity to buy; people have not had an opportunity to buy six-wheelers or eight-wheelers. The first offer of any substantial number of six-wheelers or eight-wheelers was in the S.4 List offered at the time of the General Election. Before that practically no group of any account whatever was offered.
  Of the 18,000 vehicles which up to date have been offered, only about 2,000 odd came into the group of twelve-tonners or six to eight-wheelers. That is to say, 15 per cent. of those offered were heavy vehicles. Of that 15 per cent., none has been offered in sizeable lots. It is perfectly true that the small man has had an opportunity satisfactorily to get back into the industry. That pledge has been fully carried out. What has not been done is to give an opportunity for the person who wants to buy units of 20, 30 or 50 vehicles.
  In March, 1955, a few large vehicles were offered, but recent units have not been offered. At that time the Road Haulage Association made an approach to the Minister at a meeting on 25th April, 1955. It was pointed out to the Minister that he could not possibly expect satisfactory tenders for any large units on the eve of the General Election. The Minister asked the Association not to express that view at that time, but to defer its public comments on that list until after the General Election. The Association agreed, and it was a very proper thing to do.
  The effect was that at the time of the General Election 24 units representing 544 vehicles were sold, that is 4½per cent. of the S.4 List. After the General Election 96 per cent. of all vehicles offered were sold. I want now to ask whether it is not a fact that, at the time of the General Election, Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve indicated it as his opinion that, once the Election was out of the way, it would be possible to offer units of almost any size and in any group, and that reasonable tenders could be expected.
  It has been said that since the General Election these vehicles might not have

  1913
  been bought. The only occasion on which any units of any size—in groups which, at any rate, the Conference which I represent would desire to buy, large units of 20 and over—have been offered was in March to April, 1955, at a time when it had got around that it was a very unwise time to buy.
  It cannot honestly be said that this is implementing a pledge to give an opportunity to buy. However, the past is less important than the future, and I ask that we should implement the pledge in accordance with the spirit in which Parliament passed the 1953 Act. When we have introduced an Act, let us implement it until a new Act has been passed. The 1953 Act is still on the Statute Book. I ask that we should now give these men an opportunity to buy units and to buy them properly.
  May I deal with the main point? We have heard a lot about the agitation that might affect trunk services, but these men I am talking about, who have 40, 50 or 60 vehicles, are able to run these trunk services and have had experience of doing so. They have pledged, and in the deputation to the Minister have said, that they would be prepared to buy. Let me give an assurance, on behalf of these two associations, that they are now ready and willing to buy units of 20, 30 or up to 50 vehicles, of which at least half are six-wheelers or more, and they are willing to buy them according to any reasonably open tender.
  I will give one example. Mr. W. A. Hyman, managing director of J. and H. Transport Services (Peckham) Limited, writing to the National Conference of Road Transport Clearing Houses, said:
  "This company operates 49 vehicles, eight of 7-tons unladen weight; one of 5-tons unladen weight and the remaining 40 of 3-tons unladen weight. This means that we are very badly handicapped for large carrying capacity vehicles and will find it extremely difficult to compete with the British Road Services on a competitive basis as the proportion of their vehicles is something like 2–1 in favour of the large carrying capacity vehicle."
  Therefore, I say that these men have never had an opportunity of buying six-wheeled and eight-wheeled vehicles——
  Mr. Ernest Davies: Nonsense.
  Mr. Rees-Davies: They have given a firm assurance that they will do so now. There is power to do so until this Measure is carried out, and the only
  1914
  reason it has not been done is because of the attitude of B.R.S. in this matter from the start, and the efficiency of their very fine managers, often first-class Tories, who wanted to run the business in the best way that they could—and I do not blame them—and they were unwilling to get rid of the vehicles.
  I say emphatically that they have not had the opportunity to buy, and they ought to be given that opportunity until this legislation comes into force, I ask no more than that. This Measure will not come into force until 1957, and there is therefore opportunity during the remainder of this year to offer proper units. I ask the Minister to consider giving an assurance that they will be offered; that those units will be of twenty and over; that they will comprise a fair proportion of vehicles of twelve tons and over and that they will offer a proportion of two-thirds of those of six-wheelers and eight-wheelers. Those will be snapped up without any difficulty whatever, and that would reduce the number of vehicles.
  I wish now to turn to the question of the monopoly and the points I desire to make under that head. With regard to the future of this semi-monopoly and the dangers that lie ahead, I suggest that the figure of 7,500 is clearly too high a figure in order to give parity—and in my submission that should be the principle—between the private hauliers and the industry. Clearly, we should specify the tonnage and the number of trailers, because the policy of B.R.S. at the moment is that they have never sold trailers at all. In fact, they are building up a large long-distance carrying fleet by the extensive use of trailers. Thirdly, and this is most important, let us have some business methods in the B.R.S. in future.
  I want to make three points. First, let us hive off B.R.S. and make it into a separate concern from the British Transport Commission. Let us hive it off as a quite separate corporation which, in future, may make a great name for itself and I wish to give it the opportunity to do so—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am quite sincere about this matter. The second point is: let it publish an annual balance sheet. Let us see whether the parcels service is satisfactory. The parcels service is unsatisfactory. It is run at a loss and it would be better if it could

  1915
  have a good breath of public opinion and fresh air through it.
  The third point is: why should B.R.S. be allowed to have a financial guarantee from the Treasury and not have to go to the open market as other businesses have to? I wish to see that system done away with. I wish to see B.R.S. run as a separate corporation in the same way as Unilever is run, and publishing accounts.
  To make my last three points, I turn to licences. First, we have not got parity of licensing. I wish to see A and B licences held on reasonable parity between these people. I entirely agree that the B.R.S. should be given licences which entitle it to go all over the country, but why should that condition not apply also to private enterprise hauliers, who are only to be permitted to operate in certain areas? Let us have absolute and honest parity between these two conflicting ideologies.
  When we sell off the balance of the vehicles, let us do so in company units, suitable to fit into the structure of a business. What happens in regard to S licences? At the moment, if a man has two or three lorries of two or three tons gross unladen weight, he is not allowed to bulk those licences together. He should be able to do what is done by the nationalised sector of the industry, namely, to bulk his licences together so that he can have a six-tonner instead of two three-tonners. In that way real competition would be assured, because private enterprise might then be able to get back the cream of the traffic, which will otherwise be kept by the growing State monopoly.
  9.6 p.m.
  Mr, G. R. Strauss: I do not want to refer directly to the speech of the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies). It can best be answered by the Minister, because what he said was in conflict with the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary, who told us categorically that the chances of selling these vehicles under the S.4 list, if they were put up for sale again, was almost nil. In this matter I prefer to accept the evidence and views of the Parliamentary Secretary rather than those of the hon. Member.
  This debate has not had so much passion in it as most of those upon
  1916
  transport which have taken place during the last few years, whether it is judged by the number of hon. Members who have attended, or by the temper of the speeches made. But the Minister must not be misled by the atmosphere of this debate into thinking that we regard the Bill's proposals either with indifference or with acquiescence. That is not so. We feel very strongly about many of its Clauses. That view has been expressed by many of my hon. Friends in very definite and vigorous terms, and I can assure the Minister that at later stages we shall move such Amendments as we think necessary to eliminate Clauses which we regard as harmful to the interests of the nation, and others which appear to us to be purely vindictive towards the publicly-owned transport system.
  Some hon. Members opposite have said—I do not know whether they really meant it—that they hope hon. Members on this side of the House will accept this Bill as a final solution of the transport problem. That is ridiculous. To us, this Bill—except Clause 1—reeks of Tory prejudice. Not only does it appear so to us, but I think that it must appear so to any unpolitical and unprejudiced observer who studies its proposals.
  There can be no doubt that the Bill is a confession of the failure of the Government's road haulage policy. It is a confession, too, of miscalculation and of folly in acting up on the advice of the Road Haulage Association, which we have now been told by the Parliamentary Secretary was bad. The Government, prompted by the Road Haulage Association, which we now know made a wrong assessment of the situation and advanced views which were untenable, tried to restore the road haulage system in this country to the old pre-nationalisa-tion pattern. They believed the road haulage service should be broken up and returned to its previous owners; and that then everybody would be happy, or at any rate the previous owners would be.
  They told us that all this could be done quickly. As my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) reminded the House, the previous but one Minister of Transport said that it could be completed by the end of 1953. We said at the time that that policy was not only wrong in principle,

  1917
  but also unworkable and impracticable, and on that aspect at any rate the Government have been proved wholly wrong and we have been proved wholly right.
  We have now arrived at a situation in which the Government have been confronted with the impossibility of selling the vehicles which were put up for sale last year. We are told by the Parliamentary Secretary that if these 6,115 vehicles were put up for sale today there would be little chance of selling them. As we know, out of those 6,115 vehicles, only 554 were sold at the time. That is the situation in the general haulage services section of B.R.S. We know too that in the meat section the Government have not been able to receive any reasonable or acceptable bid, and that this is also true of the parcels section.
  So the Government are confronted with a situation in which they are unable to sell any more vehicles, and get a decent price for them. Of course, they could sell them as chattels or as scrap, but they cannot sell them at a fair price. The Government are also confronted with the fact that industry as a whole has said through the British Chambers of Commerce that it does not want any further break-up of the B.R.S. road haulage system and that it is satisfied with it. Independent papers, which usually take a rather anti-Socialist view, like the Economist, go out of their way to say what an efficient and profitable service B.R.S. has built up and what a great pity it would be to dissolve it.
  As a result of all that, the Government are forced, unwillingly I am sure, to eat their words and go back on their previous policy. They now make a concession to the demands which we have made throughout and which others have made, later to the extent of permitting B.R.S. to maintain a substantial fleet of nearly 8,000 vehicles for general haulage purposes. We are naturally relieved that the Government have at long last seen the error of their ways, but we cannot congratulate them on their change of policy.
  It was not the result of any widom on their part. They were forced to do so by the pressure of events, and one does not congratulate a sinner on giving up sinning when reluctantly forced to do so by circumstances which he did not foresee and which he tried to avoid. That has happened in this case, and on this re-
  1918
  versal of Government policy we are entitled to say, as previous speakers have said," We told you so," and we are entitled to add that we deplore the obstinacy with which the Government so long refused to face facts and persisted in sacrificing the obvious national interest to party dogma and the selfish and unrealistic demands of the Road Haulage Association.
  It is this atmosphere and this doctrinaire attitude which quite plainly characterises the remaining Clauses of the Bill, in which the Government are trying to make easier the further disintegration of the road haulage services now under B.R.S. Why they persist in this policy I do not know.
  We have been given no reason this evening—and were given no effective reason when the 1953 Bill was originally brought before the House—why the Government are so anxious, with all the experience they have had, to break up the parcels service and the meat service. We have not been told that those services are unsuccessful, inefficient or uneconomic. One hon. Member opposite has said that he had received some complaints about the parcels service. I should be very much surprised if there were not some complaints. Does the House realise that 2 million parcels are dealt with by this service weekly? If from the handling of 2 million parcels a week some complaints did not arise it would be most extraordinary.
  On the whole, I think it is generally admitted that this service, this new service, this great national service which has been built up, is a very fine one indeed. In fact, the Minister of Transport's predecessor in July, 1954, referred to it as
  "… the very large, extensive and, recognise, admirable parcels and smalls service …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th July, 1954; Vol. 529, c. 2031–2.]
  In those circumstances, and having failed so far to sell them, why do the Government persist in their policy of breaking up this organisation and introduce devices they had not thought of before to get rid of it at all costs? Is it because it is a monopoly? Surely not. If sold, the service will presumably be sold in one parcel to one organisation and, presumably, would still be a monopoly, but a private monopoly, and, by definition, a private monopoly is less under public influence and control than is a public one.

  1919
  We know that the workers in the industry very much oppose the idea of the selling of the organisation. One would think that the Government would pay some attention to those people. But their views are to be completely ignored and the Government will continue in its purpose.
  In order to find out what the Government's original ideas were and whether there were any specific reasons which I did not know for the selling of these two services to private interests, I looked at the debate which took place on the introduction of the 1953 Bill. I read the speech of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor in order to find out what arguments he advanced, but he only submitted a general argument which covers the break-up of all the road haulage services of the Transport Commission. He said:
  "… integration having failed—the road haulage services, whose only raison d'être was to provide an integrated service along with the Railway Executive, having failed—there is no argument whatever for not handing back to private competition the long-distance road services."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1952; Vol. 507, c. 1415.]
  In view of the passage of time and the experience we have had of the success of these services, I suggest that we now want something more, and we are entitled to ask why the Government are persisting in this policy of breaking up. Moreover, I submit to the Government that they are being exceedingly illogical. It is now said that in view of two circumstances the B.R.S. is to be permitted to maintain its trunk network. They are that B.R.S. is doing well—everyone has said that it is doing well—and it is popular. Secondly, that it is very difficult to sell the lorries. Those arguments apply equally to the parcels service and to the meat service. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Of course they do. It has so far not been possible to get a reasonable bid for either of those fleets and services. Moreover, according to general account and independent opinion both organisations are doing exceedingly well.
  Mr. Hirst: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will forgive my interrupting but, quite frankly, from every single reply to all those hundreds of letters it was conclusive that the parcels service was not satisfactory.
  Mr. Strauss: The hon. Gentleman said that he had sent out 200 questionnaires. Most of the people replied that they were in favour of the general haulage system, but many said that they had some complaints about the parcels system. Of course there were complaints.
  Mr. Hirst: By every one.
  Mr. Strauss: It would be very simple to get a large number of unsolicited testimonials in the opposite direction.
  Why, then, are the Government persisting in the sale of these two sections of the B.R.S. when they have agreed to permit B.R.S. to maintain a viable general road haulage service? It is particularly idiotic, if I may use that word—it is not too strong—to sell those two services now that the Government have agreed to maintain the general haulage service because the two, the parcels service and the general haulage service, ought to be fully integrated.
  It has not been possible to integrate them until now because the Government have said that they intended to sell off these services; and they have had to be maintained in separate organisations and companies. But there is enormous scope for integrating the parcels service with the general haulage service and for trunking many of the parcels in containers. It would be exceedingly economic and efficient and would save a great deal in overheads.
  One can only imagine why the Government are doing this—and here I exercise some imagination. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Well, let us see whether I am right. Why are the Government being so illogical in devising ways and means for getting rid of these two excellent B.R.S. services at the same time as they are retaining the important network service? One can only imagine that it is as a result of the sort of compromise which has been struck between the Government and the Road Haulage Association.
  It is clear from the Parliamentary Secretary's speech that the Road Haulage Association has been brought into consultation and discussion over all these matters and a bargain effected. The Government have said, "We intend to maintain the general haulage organisation and

  1921
  to allow it to run with a substantial number of lorries. On the other hand, we undertake to take even further steps than under the 1953 Act to make easier the disposal of the parcels service and the meat service." Hon. Members may call it a compromise; I prefer to call it a squalid bargain in which the national interest is sacrificed.
  I want to ask the Minister a number of questions which I hope he will be able to answer in his speech. First, has he considered, or has he had pointed out to him, the considerable economy which could be achieved by a proper co-ordination of the parcels service not only with the general trunks road service of B.R.S. but with the railways? It would be exceedingly wasteful from the point of view of efficiency for the parcels service to be sliced off into independent hands which will run it as an independent organisation trying to make as much profit out of it as possible. Has he considered that?
  Question No. 2: Will he please tell us a little more about the 7½per cent. of the B.R.S. lorries—the 7,750 which B.R.S. is to retain—for which the service will not be permitted to have A licences without making specific application? It seems to me that that will cause enormous administrative difficulty. I understand that the argument is that 7½per cent. of all fleets are normally out of service and being repaired at any time and that it is therefore argued that 7½per cent. of the B.R.S. lorries will not need an ordinary A licence.
  Every time a lorry goes in for repair and is out of action there will be administrative worry and difficulty in obtaining a licence transfer from the licensing authority. Each licence will have to be re-transferred to a lorry when it has been repaired and put back on the road. It will be a great nuisance, but it is apparently part of the sordid bargain reached with the Road Haulage Association in order to appease it and prevent its political opposition from being too formidable.
  We must remember that the figure of 7,750 was put forward by Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve as the correct figure for a viable road haulage system. Why do the Government propose to cut that figure by 7½per cent.? As far as I know, no cut is
  1922
  to be imposed on private road hauliers. Such a haulier may have 200–300 lorries. Is the number of his A licences to be reduced by 7½per cent. of the number of his lorries because that is the number normally in repair?
  My hon. Friend the Member for Southall (Mr. Pargiter) said that if this new principle is to be applied to the public service it should be applied to the private services as well. I agree. I wonder whether the Minister has appreciated that the parcels service which he now proposes to sell appears to bring in a profit of about £1 million a year. That is not unimportant. It is very attractive to the people who look forward to buying it but it is not unimportant to the British Transport Commission, which is in a very difficult financial situation. Has he entirely ignored that £1 million a year?
  It is not clear exactly what the Minister means to do with the parcels service. Does he by any chance mean to break up the service into small competitive units, as suggested by some, or does he propose, as suggested by others, to make a mixed company out of it, with the B.R.S. retaining 50 per cent. of the shares and private interests holding the other 50 per cent.? Is that the intention? If so, it is very interesting and important. Or are they to be sold in their entirety to private interests?
  The Parliamentary Secretary said something about postponing the sale of the parcels company. He said that the Bill enabled the Minister to do that. I hope that he will tell us what his intentions are in this respect. Does he mean to postpone it and, if so, for how long and for what purpose? I hope that we may have an answer about that. That is important, and brings me to another question.
  Does the Minister realise the unsettling effect of not having a final decision on this matter, with these services as it were, floating in the air, publicly owned but prepared for sale to private interests, with no chance of equipping them with new lorries and other essential requirements. In that way, they become inefficient and subject to criticism, and the people employed in them do not know where they are and become demoralised. It is essential to have finality in this matter. I ask the Minister to say that there will be finality and that anything

  1923
  that is not sold after a certain date will remain in the possession of B.R.S.
  Is he prepared, when he is dealing with the question of the Transport Levy and the recompense to the B.T.C. for any loss that it incurs as the result of the Government's policy, to say that it is his firm intention that the B.T.C. shall not be losers as a result of all this business? He has told us that the income of the levy until the end of this year, which will be about £12½ million, is to go to the B.T.C. in compensation for the losses to which they have been put. I think the Minister said that it was not too easy at the moment to reckon what those losses would be. What we are concerned about is that the B.T.C. ought not to be put into the red as the result of these activities of the Government. That was the policy of the Government when they introduced the 1953 Act, and it ought to be the policy of the Government today.
  I invite the Minister to say that when the final calculation is made, and it should be done by independent accountants and not the Ministry's accountants, the B.T.C. will not be a loser.
  It is perfectly true that we have a different attitude on this side of the House to that held by hon. and right hon. Members opposite. We want a publicly-owned transport system, under all proper safeguards, to flourish and to render a great service to the industries of the country. But it is clear from the sum of all past actions of the Government and the Clauses in this Bill, apart from Clause 1, that the attitude of the Government and their supporters to the nationalised transport system is this: They want it to survive, but they do so grudgingly. They make that survival as difficult as possible and load it with every conceivable handicap. They say that these handicaps are designed to bring about fair competition. Whatever the reason may be—it is really to ensure that private road hauliers will be able to make good profit—they are undeniably loading it with handicaps.
  In this Bill the Government are making it easier to sell to private interests for private profit two very important public services. We believe that is a wrong outlook. We believe that behind it is the Conservative Party's inherent dislike for
  1924
  any incursion by the Government or the State into business on a large scale. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] There is agreement from very many hon. Members opposite. They dislike this publicly-owned transport service and, disliking it, look upon it with hostility and try to crib it and confine it on every possible occasion. That is the natural outcome of the hostility which has been expressed openly—not by the Minister maybe—but by many of his hon. Friends.
  We take the view that the British Transport Commission through its various activities is a great national endeavour rendering successfully an efficient and great public service. We believe that a Government which has the national interest foremost in mind should encourage and help it in every proper way to render yet more successful and more efficient service—to succour it, and not to knock it about at every opportunity. In particular reference to this Bill, we hold that the integration of the parcels fleet with the general haulage fleet and with the railway system would be the right policy—not their complete and, maybe, final separation as proposed by the Government.
  Because this Bill does contain certain concessions about the greater size of the general haulage services, we obviously cannot vote against it, although we realise that those concessions have been forced on the Government much against their will. But when we come to the later stages of the Bill and consider in detail the many objectionable Clauses it contains, we shall do our utmost to get those Clauses amended, modified, and if possible, eliminated altogether.
  9.34 p.m.
  The Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Harold Watkinson): First, I should like to say a word of congratulation to my hon. Friend the Member for Pollok (Mr. George), who made his maiden speech today. Whilst I think I would not be quite expressing the sense of the House if I said that it was wholly uncontroversial, it was nonetheless a very good and very honest speech, and the House always listens with great attention to a Member who brings here long, practical, working knowledge in his subject. I know that we shall listen very attentively to my hon Friend when he speaks in this House again.

  1925
  I listened to the debate with close attention, not only for what hon. and right hon. Members have said, but equally to try to gauge the general views which have been expressed on the broader context of the transport industry, from which the provisions of the Bill cannot be divorced.
  Like a good many other Members of the House, I have a considerable affection for this great transport industry. It is very hard lines upon it that since 1939, for one reason or another, it has had a very rough time. First, to suffer the attacks of the Luftwaffe, and then to be subjected to even more intense political warfare is no way to treat a major public utility if one really wants it to be successful. If, coupled with that, it has been impossible for previous Governments to allow road or rail transport to spend adequate capital on bringing themselves up to date, here is the reason—I am trying to be factual—for a great many of the troubles that beset the industry, and certainly one of the reasons for its low morale in many cases. That, I think, is a fact with which few hon. Members would disagree.
  The right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) seemed a little worried when he said that there was much less passion in this debate than in some of our previous debates on these subjects. I think he considered it a defect. Nevertheless, he did his best, I thought, to bring a little passion into his closing remarks.
  There is one point I must make. I have made no squalid bargain. I have taken my own decisions on the Bill and have consulted all the interests concerned before taking them. There has been no squalid bargain so far as I am concerned, and I intend to show in my remarks that I and my right hon. Friends in the Government as a whole consider only one thing in relation to the Bill: that is, to try to get a sensible and practical solution in the national interest.
  I thought that that spirit was not entirely absent today from speeches from the other side of the House also—and they were fair speeches. I listened, for example, to the speeches of the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) and of the hon. Member for Bradford, East (Mr. McLeavy). I certainly do not agree with the proposal of the hon. Member for Bradford. East to have a Royal Commission. Let us have fewer com-
  1926
  missions and a little action to try to get this industry more efficient. Nonetheless, as my hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson) said, the important thing now is to consider the successful working of this great transport industry and not to worry too much about its political past.
  I was interested the other day to see that the Chairman of the British Transport Commission said of the undertakings for which he was responsible:
  "We must never fall back on the heroin shot of subsidy, however administered. Nobody in our organisation has any doubts at all about the ultimate success of our plans."
  Those are sentiments which I most strongly support.
  But there is another kind of shot in the arm that this House can give to the transport industry, if it wants to do so: that is, to remove it from the arena of acute political controversy.
  Mr. D. Jones: Why did the Government bring it in?
  Mr. Watkinson: I will come to that. If guilt lies in this matter, it lies on both sides of the House and not on one side only.
  I am sure that that desire is shared by management and men alike. Equally, I think, trade union leaders and Transport Commission management feel that their duty now is to concentrate on increasing efficiency, reducing costs and improving the service. They want to get on with that job, and to be left alone to get on with it.
  That is why the whole purpose of the Bill is to try to strike a reasonably fair balance. If we try to do that, all the parties, quite rightly, see that something that they would like to have had included is omitted. That is one of the necessities if we are striking a fair balance. But unless we do strike that balance, I do not see how we shall bring this endless controversy to an end and allow this industry to get on with its job. That is the spirit in which I and my right hon. Friends approach the Bill.
  I do not mind at all when hon. Members opposite admit—they admitted it when they were taxed with this by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Cole)—that they spent a lot of time today looking backwards and saying "I told you so." It is a quite

  1927
  proper political exercise. All I shall say—and I am sure this is nowhere more welcome than in the transport industry—is that we are concerned with the future of this industry and not its past. [Laughter.] It is the future of the industry that is important to the men who work in it—and I hope that hon. Members opposite will not laugh at that.
  Therefore, the Measure is brought forward because we on this side of the House believe, and believe it just as passionately as hon. Members opposite believe in their way of running things, that the right thing for the nation is to apply the test of efficiency to this industry and not the test of party politics. My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) had a very good phrase for it when he said that it was "competitive co-existence." I am not sure that that is not a very good way of explaining the kind of relationship which we want to see established between private and public road haulage interests.
  It is quite wrong, therefore, for hon. and right hon. Members opposite to say that the Bill is a sort of confession of failure. Perhaps it would have been a confession of failure if we had been doctrinaire enough to sell off the whole of S.4 or any remaining lorries, as we could well have done, in small lots. I cannot answer my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) because he has not left me enough time to do so, but he said that he knows of many interests who are still willing to buy lorries.
  The important issue was whether the Government were going to be doctrinaire enough to say, "We go through with this to the bitter end, regardless of the national consequence." No one who played a part, as I did, in planning services during the regrettable railway strike last year was left in any doubt of the value of trunk road services. Competition has improved and continues to improve them, but they are a national asset and we would have been quite wrong to break them up, if that had been the only way to deal with the matter. If private enterprise had come forward and made reasonable offers it could have played its part in this task, but for one reason or another many of those engaged in private enterprise, understandably, have not been able to do so.
  1928
  That leaves me with the numbers to be left with British Road Services and the question of the 7½per cent. which the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) asked me to explain. I will explain it in a way which shows that we are making some progress in the right direction. I am glad to tell him that this figure of 7½per cent. float is an agreed figure between the Chairman of the British Transport Commission and the Road Haulage Association, who met under the chairmanship of Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve, whom I should like to thank for bringing them together for the first time.
  They agreed on this figure as a sensible and practical float between the actual number of lorries left to British Road Services and the number it was likely to have in normal operation. This is the first agreement ever registered between these two sides of the industry which will have to work together in the future. I hope that it is a sign that our way of trying to get free and friendly competition may work.
  I want to thank the Chairman of the Road Haulage Disposal Board for that and to make plain that it is my view and that of the Government that the Board has done a difficult and somewhat thankless task particularly well, and especially Sir Malcolm Trustram Eve who served in recent months at his own request without salary. He and members of the Board have tried to serve the public interest. It is certainly not their fault that the disposals went no further than they did.
  All this, however, really represents the past, and the Bill deals with the future. I am surprised that hon. and right hon. Friends opposite have not concentrated more on the future of this great industry. It could not stay as it was, and this, I hope, is a sensible attempt first to put it into a workable state, and, secondly, to try to take it out of the arena of party politics.
  Some of my hon. Friends quite rightly have expressed the view that on the whole British Road Services has had too long a start in this matter. Other hon. Gentlemen opposite think that B.R.S. has not had enough. This may indicate that it has the right number, but let us see the position of the licence figures at the end of last year.

  1929
  Open A licences for British Road Services amounted to 3,718. Open A licences for independent operators were 3,881. In other words there was a perfect balance. There were just as many open A licences in the hands of the independent operators as in the hands of British Road Services. If one includes the contract A licences and the B licences, independent operators had 5,800 compared with 3,749 for British Road Services. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, these are the heavy lorries, the 12-tonners. This is where it is always contended that B.R.S. has an unfair lead over private interests. Those figures show that that is not so, and already a lively and expanding private enterprise part of the industry has not only caught up B.R.S. but, indeed, surpassed it. That sort of balance is what we want to see the industry develop.
  At this stage there are two points with which I want to deal. The first is the question of the levy. My hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary said fairly that it was a kind of rough justice, and rough justice is not bad when it achieves at the moment a balance.
  Mr. Strauss: Estimated.
  Mr. Watkinson: I agree. As I said in the House the other day, it is entirely a matter of estimate at the moment, but the figures have been agreed by the British Transport Commission auditors and therefore they are the best estimate we can get at the moment. How the levy will work out we must see, because this is not yet a completed operation, but British Road Services has been saved the loss of goodwill on a large number of lorries. As I have said, the figures are even at the moment, and again it looks as if the kind of solution the Government want to get, which is a fair balance, may yet be achieved.
  There is one small point to which I attach great importance. The hon. Member for Accrington referred to compensation to employees. I am prepared to deal with that, and I am considering laying amending regulations in this House as soon as I have cleared the terms of them with the Commission and with all the seven trade unions concerned. I need not go into the details at the moment. If requested, I will deal with them upstairs, but I want to make it plain now that we must try to clear these matters which
  1930
  are disturbing those who work in this industry. I propose to take steps to do that in due course, when I shall ask the House to approve an amendment of the 1953 Compensation Regulations, so that we shall have done what we can to put that matter right.
  Several of my hon. Friends have dealt with the parcels and the meat companies and the right hon. Member for Vauxhall also mentioned this point. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Hirst) said fairly that he had received many complaints about the way in which the parcels company operates. I do not want to go into that, but I do want to say, as has been said quite rightly, that we offered this company on quite impossible terms. They were such terms that nobody was surprised when no offers were received.
  Therefore I think it is our duty now, in the public interest, to run this company as a proper operating commercial concern for a period and then see how it gets on. It will also show what sort of trading results it can give, and that is the right thing to do in the public interest, certainly not to attempt to sell again at this moment when it is obvious that we cannot get any acceptable offer. The same general principle applies to the meat company. There again we must, in view of the lack of an acceptable offer, say that it shall be run as a company for a time, and we will see what its results are.
  There is one other point which I want to make. I am sorry that I cannot answer all the queries put by my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies), although he raised one which I must answer. It had to do with the re-offering of S.4 or any part of it. Having made an examination myself, I find that out of the 23 units which were sold in S.4, the Disposal Board has now told me that 13 of those did not go as transport units and were broken up into smaller units by dealers after sale. I have tried to form my own view of what the demand is, quite apart from the view of the Chairman of the Disposal Board, who still adheres to his view that the re-offer of the list would not be a success. I have come to that conclusion, too, and, therefore, I have no intention of trying to re-offer the list, because I consider that if we were to do so, it would only be a failure.

  1931
  I believe that that deals with most of the matters raised in the debate. I want to return to what I think is by far the most important matter which was rightly raised by several of my hon. Friends, the future of the industry. There is one general remark which I have to make. From the other side of the House have come allegations that we do not mean it when we say that we are trying to make this great transport industry work, and that behind the scenes we shall always try to fetter and curb it and make life difficult for it. May I make plain the Government's attitude?
  We have announced that in due course we shall bring forward proposals that will deal with monopolies and restrictive practices in private industry, because we take the view that, in the competitive world into which we are moving, that sort of thing cannot be tolerated. I myself see no reason why a national industry—and I think that the phrase "national industry" is very much better than "nationalised industry"—like the transport industry, should not be subject to something of the same kind of principles.
  In other words, I think that it should not become monopolistic, that it should play fair and exercise fair competitive methods, and that it should not, for example, be able to cut its prices on the ground of being able to increase its deficit or any particular practice of that kind. That is the kind of control to which we wish to subject the transport industry; subject only to one other thing. That is of course—and I believe that the figures I have quoted show this—that we think we have introduced into the industry enough competition to make both sectors of it work at their maximum efficiency.
  If I may give them both a word of advice; they should do what all other competitive industries do, and that is, while having free and frank competition, none the less, consult one another on the matters of general interest to the industry as a whole—wages, conditions, general terms of service and that sort of thing. There is great scope there for co-operation between private enterprise and the public sector of the industry. It is something which certainly is not encouraged if we in this House continue trying to play off one against the other. It is a
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  far more important proposition to those who work in the industry than any arguments about who was right and who wrong in 1947 or 1953. I want to make that quite plain, because I do not want there to be any doubt in the mind of any hon. Member of the spirit in which the Government have brought forward the Bill.
  I very sincerely hope that this argument, which has been going on in this House for a long time, as to the merits of nationalisation and denationalisation is not now a live issue for transport. I do not for a moment doubt the sincerity of those who thought that devotion to a political cause was a better driving force than free competition. I am sure that that argument was brought forward with the greatest sincerity. Equally, if they are honest, I think hon. Members will say that in the 1953 Act we were, on the whole, equally sincere in believing that without some competition no industry can really work at anything like its maximum efficiency.
  As I have said, we were not doctrinaire about that, and when we found that it was necessary to preserve the trunk services in public ownership, because it was impossible to get private owners and buyers to run them in large enough units, we brought forward this Bill. That is not the end of the chapter, because this industry has to go on. We shall set its pattern, a sensible pattern, which I hope will not be unduly disturbed. But when the House has done that, I believe we shall best serve the nation if we encourage it to go on, subject to the spur of fair competition, as a national industry that will find its driving force from a determination to provide a fair deal for those who work within it, and a good, sensible and practical service for those industries and those people who look to it to carry them and serve them.
  Mr. J. Hynd: May I ask the Minister this question, as he has made one important point? He does not consider that a nationalised industry or service should be permitted to reduce its prices below a certain point in competition with other trades. Does that mean that we shall hear no more of the demand that nationalised industries should give a lead to private enterprise in cutting prices?
  Mr. Watkinson: I made one important point, that a nationalised industry should not be allowed to cut its prices if that was merely increasing its deficit; in other words, fair competition.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

  BROADCASTING (ANTICIPATION OF DEBATES)
  Select Committee appointed to consider whether any changes are desirable in the present methods of giving effect to the principle that there should be some limitation to the anticipation of Parliamentary debates by broacasting:
  Mr. Julian Amery, Mr. Bellenger, Mr. Wedgwood Benn, Sir Herbert Butcher, Mr. Crossman, Mr. Ness Edwards, Mrs. Evelyn Emmet, Sir Robert Grimston, Sir Lionel Heald, Mr. Holt, Sir James Hutchison, Mr. McAdden, and Mr. Sydney Silverman:
  Five to be the Quorum:
  Power to send for persons, papers and records.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]

AIRCRAFT INDUSTRY (TECHNICAL INFORMATION)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]
9.58 p.m.
Air Commodore A. V. Harvey: The subject which I am privileged to raise tonight deals with the interchange of technical information in the aircraft industry, a subject in which I have some personal interest.
At present, with growing disquiet about what is going on in the industry, it is difficult to put one's finger on all the troubles. Perhaps some of them may be due to the lack of an exchange of ideas between firms and countries. I think that the firms are to blame to a certain extent, but under successive Governments there have been far too many projects. During the years after the war the party opposite, when they were in power, spent many millions of the taxpayers' money in developing new projects which were thrust on to the industry and willingly accepted.
In the four years in which they have been in power, the present Government have had to carry on with some of those projects and gradually tail them off but I am not satisfied that full use is being made of the technical information which is available to all companies manufacturing airframes. Many research and development units have been brought into being since the beginning of the war, but I do not think that all the information percolates down to the smaller firms. I can give one instance, namely, the project of the Bristol Brabazon——
It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Barber.]
Air Commodore Harvey: The taxpayers have spent £11 million or £12 million upon that project, which we all now know was scrapped after the flight of the first prototype. It is very difficult to know what benefit was derived from that project. The Britannia may be an example of what the Bristol Company gained in technical and operational

1935
experience, but I very much doubt whether any other company—except some equipment companies—has gained any experience at all. When taxpayers' money is spent upon such a scale, any information which is derived from such a project should be available to every company operating in Britain.
The Government have done an exceedingly fine job in passing on information themselves. Farnborough has rendered great service to the country and the aircraft industry. Nobody would belittle its efforts, especially in relation to the research which went on into the causes of the Comet accident. I wonder, however, if we are getting as much as we should get from Farnborough. It is run under the direction of the Ministry of Supply, and has a director in charge. There are frequent changes in the directorship and I think it might be better if Farnborough were constituted under a public board, drawn from university professors, men in industry and Government officials. Farnborough's outlook might then be broadened and, at the same time, there would be an element of continuity, without constant changes of directorship such as we had recently when Sir Arnold Hall and Sir William Farren went into industry. That is the point. The best technical men in Government service are leaving to go into outside industry where they can get better remuneration. I hope that the Minister will consider that my suggestion is a practical proposition. It cannot be done overnight, but it is an idea.
The Aeronautical Research Council is a very fine body, but could not its activities be extended upon a Commonwealth basis? We could have a wider board of control, consisting of university professors and Government officials, and I do not see why people from industry who have spent their lives in this business should not also be brought in, to widen the scope of the Council.
If this country is to survive we must not only develop new equipment in the form of aircraft, but we must spend our money, and spend it wisely, on research. We pride ourselves that we are doing very well with our wind tunnels, but we are a long way behind in the matter of supersonic wind tunnels. One is now being completed at Bedford. The Government have invested money to a total of £1½million and industry is also contributing, but not all the
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leading firms are in it. I deplore the fact that two or three firms, at any rate, have not invested money in this research development. They really ought to give some help and not wait for the Government to serve everything up upon a plate.
At Murac, in America, there is a runway 7 miles long which is used for testing supersonic aircraft. I heard recently that there is also a track which is 14 miles long, in the desert, where scaled-down models achieve speeds of about 1,400 miles an hour. In considering whether we are keeping pace with the Americans we must take into account all this research work which is going on there. Unless we are careful we shall lose this air race. We have to spend all the money we can afford, but spend it very wisely. It is all very well to carry out research in a wind tunnel, but if we had a track such as I have mentioned, with models attached to a metal rail travelling at air speeds of 1,400 miles an hour on instrumentation, the information we should derive would be tremendous.
I have a great respect for the Ministry of Supply and for the technical people in it, but somehow I feel that there is an iron curtain in that Ministry. We spend money on research and development, but the ideas are not allowed to proceed and develop completely. It needs a terrific spurt, but I feel that there is an iron curtain somewhere in the Ministry that is preventing this. Many of the civil servants are not making up their minds, either because they are afraid or because they do not want to.
I sympathise with my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, who is to reply to the debate, because neither he nor his right hon. Friend the Minister can see everything that is going on. Decisions are made late and sometimes they are not made at all. I often think that it would not be a bad thing in the Ministry of Supply to have a Minister of State doing nothing else but looking after this very great industry, perhaps coupled with electronics, and concentrating on the development and construction of ideas. Perhaps that may be considered on a broader issue.
We are told, and in fact we know, that the Society of British Aircraft Constructors does a great deal. The Farnborough display has certainly put Britain on the map of world aviation, both military and civil. The S.B.A.C. has done a splendid

1937
job, but there is far too much back-biting in the industry. I am in it myself—and it is not a popular thing to say for one who is already in the business—but there is far too much back-biting and not enough co-operation among the manufacturers themselves. They are building almost identical types, on which they might well have an interchange of information in an effort to solve one another's problems, but they are barely on speaking terms. I will not go into personalities, because they are too well-known, but something must be done about it. There is far too much at stake for us to lose this great battle.
The United States is out to kill us. The Americans see the prospects, and so do we, but we have far less resources than they. We have this great technical background of our workers and technicians, and that is where we win. In jet engines today, we have the men with the brains, whereas the Americans have not got them, and so they are buying power units from Britain. The secret is—and it is really no secret at all—that the boys leaving school with Higher Certificate are probably three years ahead of their American counterparts.
I want to say, in conclusion, on the subject of the United States, that a great deal that goes out of this country goes to America. We sold America the original jet engine, and we gave the Russians the Rolls-Royce Nene practically for nothing. Nevertheless, while we have sold the Americans licences to build British power units in America, by firms such as Packard and Curtis Wright, nobody in America knows these things. The Americans are building engines designed by Rolls - Royce, Armstrong - Siddeley or Bristol. They are getting a very great deal from us while we are getting very little in the way of power units. We have also been helping them with radar and many other things, but how much have we got in return?
After the war, my own company was building the Hermes and wanted information on pressurisation. Could we get help from America? We got practically nothing at all. It is a one-way traffic. I hope that the Government will take up this question with our friends in the United States. If we are Allies and working together in everything else, why can-
1938
not we pool our ideas on aviation in a common cause?
I am not unduly worried about our prospects. We have not lost the air race, though we have lost ground. The Government must spend the taxpayers' money more wisely than they have done. We must concentrate more effort on each project in future, and we must have more successes than failures. We have very limited resources, and the greatest shortage today is of stressmen and draughtsmen. We ought to make every effort to build an export trade which will take the place of some of those which are becoming, more or less, redundant, such as textiles, and so on. There is a tremendous prospect for Britain if we make use of the opportunity. I, therefore, ask my hon. Friend if he and the Minister of Supply will impress upon the industry what is expected of it. I hope, too, that the Minister will give a lead in making decisions quickly, and that he will see that we get a fair deal from America on the information which we pass on to them.
10.10 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. F. J. Erroll): My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Air Commodore Harvey), in an extremely precise and brief speech, has raised a number of matters which would take me a great deal longer to answer than it has taken him to mention them. However, in these few minutes I shall do my best to provide him and the House with a general review of the methods whereby technical information is exchanged between the firms in our aircraft industry and the Ministry of Supply, and I will try to deal with some of his other points as well.
There are few industries in which technical progress has been more rapid during the post-war years than the aircraft industry. There has been a vast increase in basic knowledge of aerodynamic problems, especially in relation to aircraft flying at or above the speed of sound, and there has been a comparable increase in techniques. I refer here to the whole range of facilities for carrying out so many of the essential tests before an aircraft actually flies, and to the basic engineering skills demanded by aircraft construction. In these circumstances, I can well understand why my hon. and gallant Friend has wished to raise this matter

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on the Adjournment and why he believes, as I do, that it is so important that the firms in the aircraft industry shall do everything possible to improve and extend the interchange of technical information.
He referred to back-biting in the industry. I can only say that though that may be his experience it is certainly not mine. I have no knowledge of what he is referring to, and, therefore, he will not expect me to comment upon it. He also hoped that my right hon. Friend the Minister would make decisions quickly. I can assure him that the Minister is particularly anxious not only to make decisions quickly but to make the right decisions. One often has to take time in reviewing the different aspects of a problem before making a decision if one is to be sure that the right decision is made.
I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the Minister is particularly aware of the importance of the interchange of technical information and regards it as one of the most important functions of his Department. My hon. and gallant Friend has referred to the limited resources we have available. That is very true. In particular, we are short of those highly skilled men such as designers, engineers and draughtsmen who are so essential to the industry. At first sight it would seem, therefore, an ideal solution that there should be a complete interchange of information amongst firms and Ministry of Supply establishments. I think that, however, really oversimplifies the situation, as I shall try to explain.
We must remember that in designing aircraft there is first the basic research stage and then the development stage. There is certainly a full and free exchange of information at the research stage on all projects sponsored by the Ministry of Supply. At this stage the Royal Aircraft Establishment of the Ministry of Supply is of prime importance as a centre for gathering together and disseminating basic ideas. Here, I may say how much I appreciate—as indeed will the staff at that establishment—the generous remarks which my hon. and gallant Friend has made about it and his appreciation of the work it is doing.
Mr. Farey-Jones: Is the information gathered by the Royal Aircraft Establishment automatically available to any firm in the aviation industry if it is spending Government money?
Mr. Erroll: Perhaps my hon. Friend would hear my further remarks, which I think provide the answer. If he is not satisfied, perhaps there will be time at the end of the debate for him to raise the matter by way of additional questions.
One might almost call the R.A.E. a universal adviser. It performs an invaluable role by communicating a great deal of information to industry. I am sorry that my hon. and gallant Friend referred to an iron curtain in the Ministry of Supply, for I can assure him that the iron curtain is a curtain of his own imagining. As far as I am aware, there is no reluctance or reticence on the part of the officials of the Department, and if he has cause for grievance in that respect—and I know how intimately he is concerned with the aircraft industry—I very much hope that he will give me the benefit of looking into particular cases, either from the firm with which he is himself connected or from what he may hear from his friends in that great industry.
The R.A.E. is always ready and anxious to assist firms with whatever problems they may bring along, and the officials frankly admit at the R.A.E. that they receive new ideas frequently from firms, which, when they are matters of basic research information, the R.A.E. is in a position to pass on to other firms requiring similar basic information.
In addition, there are a number of committees sponsored or chaired by the Ministry of Supply, and on those committees representatives of all firms can sit. My advisers assure me that there is a great willingness in these committees to share the results of basic research amongst officials of the Ministry of Supply and the firms' representatives. These committees include the Gas Turbine Collaboration Committee, the Rotary Wing Aircraft Committee, the Swept Wing Advisory Committee, the Boundary Layer Control Committee and the Flutter and Vibration Committee. There is, of course, sitting permanently at headquarters a General Flap Committee which tries to deal with the many problems which my hon. and gallant Friend so frequently raises!
When we consider the development stage, as distinct from the initial design stage, the picture is somewhat changed. Having competed at the design stage,

1941
individual firms are awarded development contracts. Inevitably the exchange of information is less free and complete at this stage than at the stage of basic research. Furthermore, the kind of information being accumulated is different. It is no longer fundamental theory but relates to mechanical or engineering skills which must be exploited if a project is to progress from the drawing board to the shop floor.
Here I should say frankly that in a healthy, competitive—and I stress the word "competitive"—industry there cannot be 100 per cent. collaboration at this point. We have to strike a balance between the advantages of private endeavour by progressive and independently minded firms and the advantages of pooling knowledge. Obviously both are essential to aeronautical progress, and it is one of the Ministry's tasks to find a balance.
I have had the opportunity of visiting many aircraft firms during recent months as well as visiting Ministry of Supply establishments, such as the R.A.E. and the National Gas Turbine Establishment, and I feel sure that this problem is being tackled successfully—but it is a real problem. In this problem the Ministry of Supply is playing its full part throughout. There is a great deal of co-operation between firms, and I would remind my hon. and gallant Friend that this depends very largely upon the attitude and policies of the individual firms, many of whom set a fine example. In particular, I should point out that co-operation between firms' representatives and Ministry of Supply officials is excellent at the working level. I do not believe that this iron curtain exists. If it appears to exist, I shall be glad to look into the matter.
Air Commodore Harvey: I hope that my hon. Friend did not misunderstand what I tried to say. The situation is all right at working level; it is in the development of ideas that there is an iron curtain.
Mr. Erroll: I will naturally look carefully at what my hon. and gallant Friend has said and see what I can find to substantiate it. As I have said already we have many committees to examine special problems on which the firms sit, and this arrangement ensures a valuable and generous interchange of knowledge.
My hon. and gallant Friend particularly referred to the suggestion which appeared
1942
in a recent issue of the Aeroplane, that Farnborough should be run by a board of management with outside representation. I should say straight away that the Director of R.A.E. has in fact a board of management for the administration of the establishment. The Controller of Aircraft and the Controller of Guided Weapons and Electronics at the Ministry, and our Chief Scientist are responsible for the establishment's programme of work. The Director has a number of Departmental heads who are responsible for particular parts of this programme and each of these officers is in close touch with the leading scientists and others in industry and also with the universities and the Ministry of Supply headquarters.
It must be remembered too that a great deal of the work of R.A.E. is not basic research but to assist firms in the practical development of particular aircraft and equipment. The proposal for a managing board with outside representation has not been made before, so far as I know. In the short time that I have had to investigate the matter, and bearing in mind the kind of work which the establishment does, I am not at all sure that it would help the establishment in its activities, for the very good reason that there is already full consultation at the working level with the staffs in the industry and individual firms about the research programme of each branch of R.A.E.
My hon. and gallant Friend has referred to the S.B.A.C. and the good work which it has been doing, which I fully and gladly endorse. I think that I should mention that it assured the Minister in 1949 that its members would agree to give advice and assistance to any firm which was in difficulties on a Ministry of Supply contract. Both the Society and the Ministry have thought it better to rely on an informal understanding rather than to try to make it a contractual obligation. Any such obligation would in any case be difficult to draw up and to enforce. The Ministry has not had any occasion to go back to the Society to complain that this gentleman's agreement has not been honoured. The Society for its part has told us quite recently that it believes that the collaboration between firms is satisfactory and in many cases well ahead of what goes on in other industries.

1943
The Department is closely concerned in the work of the Aeronautical Research Council. This Council includes representatives of academic institutions and officials. Although the Council itself does not include industrial representatives, it works mainly through a number of committees or sub-committees on particular aspects of aeronautical science, and industrial representatives serve on these committees. The terms of reference of the Aeronautical Research Council are wide, and I do not feel that increasing the size of the Council would be of any particular value, even if we were, as my hon. and gallant Friend suggested, to include representatives from the Commonwealth.
The Aeronautical Research Council meets monthly and it would be a great imposition on Commonwealth members to have to fly from Australia, Canada, or South Africa to attend those monthly meetings, particularly when there is another body which is effective for that purpose, the Commonwealth Advisory Aeronautical Research Council. That Council does not meet so frequently, but it does have a central secretariat in London. It is possible for that secretariat to keep in touch with the Aeronautical Research Council. The secretariat consists of permanent officials who go to their offices every day, and are therefore able to maintain constant touch with the British aircraft industry and with the Aeronautical Research Council.
In the few minutes that remain I should like to deal briefly with additional points raised by my hon. and gallant Friend, particularly the cost of the Brabazon and the use to which the information gained by the Bristol Aeroplane Company was subsequently put. One must admit frankly that the firm that does the work benefits first and foremost whether the aircraft which has been designed is the Brabazon, the Victor or any other project. However, the knowledge gained from the Brabazon, on subjects like the design of large structures and the use of power-operated controls, has gone into the common pool and certainly not remained the preserve of Bristol's alone.
We could have devoted a whole Adjournment debate solely to the question of wind tunnels. In recent years we have not had all the test facilities we should have liked to have. They are
1944
most expensive and there is a limit to what we can afford. The Ministry of Supply, however, has carried out a big wind tunnel programme, especially for tunnels for research and development work on high-speed flight. Our new wind tunnel near Bedford will be coming into operation shortly. Industry can use those facilities and I hope very much that it will do so.
I should also mention—as my hon. and gallant Friend pointed out—that the aircraft industry itself is spending, through the S.B.A.C. and a special research association—some millions of pounds on wind tunnels. Like my hon. and gallant Friend, I am sorry that some firms have refused to co-operate, but those which are cooperating are setting a fine example which I hope others will follow.
Air Commodore Harvey: Will my hon. Friend refer to the United States proposal?
Mr. Erroll: Yes, I intend to refer to the United States proposals. My hon. and gallant Friend mentioned a 7-mile-long runway and a 14-mile-long track. I wish that England were big enough to accommodate such runways without trouble, but he knows the difficulties. As to the exchange of information between ourselves and the United States, I believe this country receives a great deal of information from the United States. It is by no means a one-way traffic such as my hon. and gallant Friend suggested. We in the Department feel that the arrangements are operating satisfactorily. The exchange of information with the United States is by agreement and the Ministry of Defence reviews these arrangements from time to time.
In such a short time I have not been able to go into all the details of an inevitably complicated matter, but I feel that, having regard to the conviction of the Government that we should encourage and retain a competitive private aircraft industry, we have succeeded in securing a degree of co-operation which yields the advantages of freely pooled basic knowledge and is yet compatible with a measure of competition in the search for new ideas and skills.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Ten o'clock.

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  Motor Industry (Capital Expenditure)
  Bulgarian and Hungarian Assets (Dividends)
  Bulgarian and Hungarian Assets (Dividends)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Mentally Defective Children, Cheshire
  Mentally Defective Children, Cheshire
POST OFFICE
  Letter Boxes (Clearances)
  Letter Boxes (Clearances)
  COLONIAL TERRITORIES (GOVERNORS' BROADCASTS)
  COLONIAL TERRITORIES (GOVERNORS' BROADCASTS)
ROADS
  Pedestrian Crossings (Lights)
  Pedestrian Crossings (Lights)
  COMMONWEALTH COUNTRIES (ANTARCTIC INTERESTS)
  COMMONWEALTH COUNTRIES (ANTARCTIC INTERESTS)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Advertisement Regulations (Appeals)
  Advertisement Regulations (Appeals)
  BECHUANALAND (FINANCE)
  BECHUANALAND (FINANCE)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

NORTH-EAST SURREY CREMATORIUM BOARD BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed.
PONTYPOOL AND DISTRICT WATER BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
CAMMELL LAIRD AND COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
RHYL URBAN DISTRICT COUNC1L BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

FROST-PROOF PLUMBING
3.6 p.m.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Teynham, who unfortunately is ill, I beg to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what directions, if any, they have given, or intend to give, to local authorities to ensure that houses and schools should be constructed so that their plumbing is frost-proof.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I am sorry to hear that my noble friend Lord Teynham is ill. The Answer to his Question is as follows:
With regard to houses, Her Majesty's Government have issued advice in the Housing Manual, 1949; in Appendix G of the Technical Appendices to the Manual, which were issued in 1951;
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and in the Circular No. 34/54 which was issued in April, 1954. Local authorities also have the benefit of two publications issued by the Ministry of Works—Postwar Building Studies No. 4, issued in 1944; and an advisory leaflet on lagging, issued in 1950. The Minister of Housing and Local Government is considering whether any further action can usefully be taken. With regard to schools, the Minister of Education has not given, and does not propose to give, any directions to local education authorities on matters within the competence of their own professional and technical staffs. The position in Scotland is similar.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his courteous reply. He will probably remember that this House had an important debate on this matter last year, in which there were reports of new houses and schools being unsatisfactory from the point of view of their plumbing. Would the Government do everything possible to remind local authorities again? I understand that it is largely a question of expense—sometimes, when these estimates get up to the Ministry, they are turned down.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, as recently as April, 1954, local authorities were reminded in a circular. We in this country always seem to be taken by surprise by winter, but the local authorities have had a good deal of information.

FOOD AND DRUGS (SCOTLAND) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS BILL
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD MATHERS: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Mathers.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
LORD MATHERS: My Lords, with a feeling of real gratitude to the House I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Mathers.)
On Question, Bill passed.

THE INTERNATIONAL LABOUR CONFERENCE
3.11 p.m.
LORD LAWSON LORD LAWSON rose to call attention to the Report by the delegates of Her Majesty's Government to the International Labour Conference at Geneva, 1955 (Cmd. 9629); and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I feel that my first duty to your Lordships' House is to apologise for the fact that I was responsible for the postponement of this Motion from last week to this. This was unavoidable, but I regret that the postponement inconvenienced certain Members on both sides of the House. The Motion deals with the International Labour Organisation Conference, which is reported upon by delegates appointed by the Government of this country. There is not much stir about this great organisation; I think this is the second time we have discussed it since the war. I believe, however, that there is general agreement that it is one of the most powerful and useful world organisations in the realm of industry.
When I first came to Parliament there was no such thing as an International Labour Organisation. I came in 1919 and the Peace Treaty was not made, I think, until 1920, but I did join a small group of people who had been working at this question for some years. Like that of many organisations which have come to great usefulness, its membership was composed of members of practically all Parties. I remember that Major J. W. Hills, who was a Conservative, was Secretary. Mr. Arthur Henderson, who used to come and take the chair, although he was not in that Parliament, was its Chairman. I felt that the ideal of having an organisation for dealing with the important matters arising from the industry of the world, for improving conditions and for levelling up standards throughout the world was most important.
So I emphasise this fact: that, as the Conference with which we are dealing was made up of Government representatives and managers' representatives, as well as workers' representatives, so it was the fruit of the work of men of many different political views—but, of course, that is the way of Parliament. I remember once coming across a statement from an old chronicle (I think it was from a fifteenth century
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Parliament) which said that in that House they were ever courteous to each other
"and yet withal at times they do speak nippingly so that there is a commotion."
As a matter of fact, it is usually the commotion which gets the headlines. The work done very often by small committees or great organisations is done quietly but none the less effectively, and has no less importance for that reason. There were two Government delegates to this Conference, one managers' representative and one workers' representative—that is on what is called a tripartite basis. The governing body is made up in the same way. It includes twenty Government representatives, ten management representatives and ten representatives of the workers. This Conference, of course, is an annual affair and is the overall authority in dealing with International Labour Organisation matters. Seventy-four nations were represented in this Conference, ranging from the most recent entrants to the industry of the world to the oldest and, if I may say so, most sophisticated of the industrial nations, like ourselves.
In the last debate we had upon this matter my noble friend Lord Chorley drew attention to the fact that, while the League of Nations had been destroyed by the onset of the dictators, the International Labour Organisation, which was one wing of the League, stood erect. It continued its work and was ready to play its part with the United Nations when the war was over. That is a remarkable thing. It gives food for thought as to why an organisation representative of the whole of the nations should remain intact and continue with its work even after the political organisation has been destroyed. I have read that somebody at the Conference described it as the only great industrial organisation in the world on which there were Government, management and labour representatives who could meet and speak freely and express their own particular views.
The Director-General of this great organisation issues a report every year before the Conference. I am sorry that most of your Lordships have not had an opportunity to read that report; I did what I could to get some copies placed in the Library. But, if I dare make a suggestion, I should say that it is worth

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while for every member of your Lordships' House who has thought fit to come to this debate to do what he can to get that report and to read it; it is certainly one of the most striking documents on modern world industry that I have ever lead. I should have liked to quote from it, because in the report the Director-General gives a direction to the Conference, as he does every year. He was asked by the Conference of 1954 to give a direction. They had in mind the state of modern industry and its swiftly changing composition. Some of the new ideas that have been put into machine form caused such perturbation that the Conference of 1954 asked the Director-General if he would apply his mind to the question of management and labour relations in industry and would give a direction which would lay the basis for the big general debate of the Conference. The Director-General did that in his most striking report, in which he showed how mankind generally had been affected by the coming of industry, how the personal skill of men in various industries had been affected by the corning of machines, and how men were being increasingly affected by the coming of machines. He dealt with the whole range of questions affecting workmen and management. Finally, he dealt with the question that is universally attracting the attention of all thoughtful people—that of automation.
May I read a generalised quotation from the report of the Director-General? He says:
"One of the strongest forces making for industrial and social change is technological development. Many have suggested that we are on the threshold of a second Industrial Revolution.… We are moving rapidly towards a world of new power and new materials.… We have made machines which work almost by themselves in the performance of even the most delicate industrial operations and machines which solve problems that overtask the human brain. We are beginning to see whole factories run by virtually automatic machines and controlled very largely by automatic means. The vast possibilities of power generation brought into existence by nuclear research are opening the doors to new productive opportunities everywhere and are giving new perspectives of development to countries that have lacked fuel or water power."
In that review, in response to the request of the previous Conference, the Director-General dealt with the coming of automation. It is not an easy subject to deal with, and I am conscious of the
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fact that if I began to deal with it in detail I should soon be bogged down. But, so far as I can gather, automation is the linking up of a number of processes into one continuous line of production which reduces the number of workers and increases output. Of course, there are various views as to the onset of automation. A wit has said, I think, that it is surely expressive of a second Industrial Revolution, because the first Industrial Revolution gave men the machines, but the second is taking the machines from men. If you take the thing in its general aspect, it looks almost as if that is to be the end of automation. Of course, there are others who point out that almost as many men as are taken off the machine are required for its maintenance. Equally, we have to remember all the time, that, however few men are taken off, or however many may be accounted for in regard to maintenance, there is still an increase in production.
It is also said that it may take some time to develop new process because of the great cost; but I have read an announcement by one great company in this country to the effect that it is to got "automised" (if I may use that word) through the new machinery that it is buying. The effect would be that whereas twenty-two men have been working on a line, two will do the work of those twenty-two and there will be increased production. Whatever may be the numbers involved, however slow or quick this development may proceed, there is no doubt whatever that we are facing a new force that is of such a disturbing nature that I think your Lordships will agree with the people who say that it is creating a new epoch for mankind—one that can be for the good of mankind, but one which, unless we are careful, may not work out exactly in that way.
It is curious that with so much discussion about this possible new Industrial Revolution on a vast scale there is so little evidence that the subject is receiving the attention of those in highly responsible positions in this country. One of my reasons for putting down this Motion is that I wish to ask Her Majesty's Government what is being done in this matter. Are they following this new development closely? Is special attention being given to the significance of this new development of automation and also to the

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application to industry of nuclear power? If so, can the Minister state the nature of the action which is being taken? When I read of the Luddites, in the old days, smashing up machinery, I always remember that that machinery was taking away their livelihood. In the light of our experience since that time we know that mechanisation increases the possibility of employment and that, generally, its effect upon mankind is good. If, however, we sit and watch this development, if the Government of the day takes no stock of it and fails to register its progress and possible effects, then we may find ourselves in a very difficult position later on.
The question of unemployment arises. Is large-scale automation likely to create unemployment in certain areas or countries? Unemployment, low wages, and bad industrial and social conditions are responsible for far more disputes than is full employment. I do not like disputes at any stage, but I and many of my friends in the industrial world have sombre memories, from boyhood onwards, of gloomy homes and difficult times amounting to sheer want, because of some stoppage. That was long before statistics were accumulated by the Minister of Labour. In spite of the difficulties of this time, I am very pleased at the comparative comfort and general social rectitude at this time of full employment.
I was led to go into this matter and to make such investigation as I could. I do not wish to trouble your Lordships with figures, though if they are wanted I will give them; but a comparison of the number of disputes in times when there was practically no protection and there was low wages and unemployment with the number to-day, when there is full employment, would astonish most members of your Lordships' House. I say that to underline the fact that if, as a nation, we hesitate about going into the question of automation and finding out how it is developing and what are its effects, and unless we have skilled men working to keep us informed, we may, I fear, find ourselves in great difficulty. Though that question is sometimes put in the context of keeping our place among the rest of the nations, it is also one which involves the exact conditions that we have to face at such times as this. If, unfortunately,
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unemployment or some similar regrettable development arises it will be more difficult to catch up with our task in this field.
There has been more than one debate in this House on technical education. I would ask the Minister whether he can say a word on this subject. Doubtless it has been the lot of many other noble Lords, as it has been my lot, to present certificates and prizes at technical schools and colleges. I have been very much struck with the general bearing of the students; from what I have seen of them they are as good as the best in the world. Yet it is striking that one can never pick up a copy of The Times or the Manchester Guardian or other leading national newspaper without seeing long columns of advertisements asking for men of technical knowledge in various fields of modern industry. Some of the advertisements are repeated so often that it looks as though we may have difficult times ahead in this respect. I believe we should give the problem more attention that we have been giving it.
Turning to another aspect of my Motion, I would say that America is, of course, the star country in dealing with these matters. The workmen there welcome these developments, just as I understand they would be welcomed in this country, always assuming that the men get their share of the increased wealth that comes along as a result. It is so pressing in America, I understand, that there is already a claim for a thirty-five hour week. There has been a claim for annual wages. Development over there has been so great that it is bound to have its impact on us in this country. I believe that one great union has completed its negotiations for a contract for annual wages. I mention those facts only to show how this thing appears to be growing in power. And it seems to me that it will not allow people or nations just to drift along in the good old way.
The Director-General's motion dealt, of course, particularly with management and labour relations. The Report contains a resolution which was passed after a very striking debate. It is a long resolution, and in the main it recites the points that were discussed during the conference. It ends by stating (I quote from

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page 40 of the Report) that the International Labour Conference:
"Accordingly decides—
1. To ask the Director-General, in the light of the observations made by members of the Conference speaking in the general debate, to review the I.L.O.'s activities as a whole and to consider how theses activities should be modified or supplemented so as to contribute effectively towards promoting labour-management co-operation and better human relations in industry throughout the world;
2. To ask the Governing Body—

(a) to draw up a practical programme of I.L.O. action for this purpose on the basis of proposals to be submitted by the Director-General as a result of the aforementioned review; and

(b) to consider bringing this matter before a future session of the Conference in some appropriate form."

Like good representatives the delegates at the Conference knew very well that they must not rush their fences—if I may use the term. They had to take careful stock in this matter. They are representatives of great masses of working people in each country, and in the case of the older European countries, particularly, they represent great organisation. And they know enough about their job to be aware that they will have to take careful account of the opinion that is held upon this matter. But, for my part, I ant very pleased that the matter is to be considered again by the International Labour Organisation. I am sure that this particular Organisation is rendering very great service to all the seventy-four countries represented in the International Labour Organisation as part of the United Nations, and if there is a way to forestall difficulties arising from the epoch-making changes which are taking place in the world of industry today it is through this Organisation that it will be found.
May I conclude by quoting some words which I wrote in a book about twenty years ago. These words are an expression of my own outlook upon this matter.
"To be masters of our own fate while freely submitting ourselves to the necessary discipline for purposes of production; to shape, mould and direct industrialism consciously for man's purposes; to bring order into industry; to co-operate with other nations so that industry shall freely operate across national boundaries; to break down antagonism; to supply human needs consciously rather than work for mere individual gain … that is the colossal task of the men and women of the twentieth century.
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"As the mind of man has built up this vast, wonderful industrial organisation, so can the spirit of man be its supreme master and use it to perform miracles for the generations to come."
My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.46 p.m.
THE EARL OF CROMER: My Lords, the relationship between management and labour is, as the Minister of Labour told the International Labour Conference, one of the keys to our national prosperity. I am sure we are, grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, for putting clown this Motion and so providing us with the opportunity of discussing the most interesting report of the Director-General of the International Labour Organisation. I heartily endorse the noble Lord's commendation of this report. It deals with the question of labour-management relations at great length and covers a very wide field. By no means all of it, naturally, is applicable to this country, and I should like to confine my remarks to one or two aspects of two of the fundamental problems with which, as it seems to me, we in this country are faced to-day in regard to industrial relations. They are communication and automation.
The strikes with which we were afflicted in this country last year seem to me, in general, to be symptomatic of some general malaise in certain sections of the community rather than protests against inadequate wages. It is difficult to discover with any certainty the basic cause of this feeling of unsettlement, particularly as at no time in our history has the wage-earner been so well off in real terms. It seems to me that one of the root causes of this discontent is the feeling that the effort of the individual, or of the group to which he belongs, is not being sufficiently recognised, and that others, whoever they may be, are getting a better deal. The reason for this feeling, in my opinion, is the lack of knowledge of the true facts and, in some cases, misrepresentation, either through ignorance or from some deliberate cause. Some employers do give a considerable amount of information to their employees, but there is undoubtedly room for a great deal of improvement in this direction. Two-way communication in industry is absolutely vital, and it is only by such means that it is possible to break down the attitude of "we" and "they."
Unless our education system has failed completely, it is absurd in this age to

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maintain the argument that people will not understand—provided, of course, that they are given a reasonably clear picture of what they are asked to understand. In any event, secrecy always breeds suspicion; it is generally undesirable and usually unnecessary. War-time experience showed that the most successful leaders were those who insisted that every man under their command was kept as fully as possible in the picture. I think that if the true facts were known and understood to-day most fair-minded people—and the majority are fair-minded—would agree that the wage-earner is getting a better deal than the shareholder or anyone else.
here has been a great deal of talk recently about the high level of company profits, and a lot of this has been based on confused thinking. It is rare that two people, when they use the word "profit," endow it with the same meaning. The various academic definitions which have been suggested are extremely difficult to apply in practice. There has grown up, unfortunately, an accounting convention whereby what might rightly be called the "surplus on trading account" is shown in published profit and loss accounts as "profits on trading." This figure is then seized upon by either the malicious or the ignorant, including, I am sorry to say, some of the Press, as being the profits of the company. But this figure is not the profit, because no allowance is made either for depreciation or taxation; and therefore to call it profit gives a grossly inflated and erroneous picture. As factories become even more heavily mechanised than they have been in the past, the greater will be the distortion in this way, because of the larger sums that will be required for depreciation. I should like to see the use of the word "profit" in profit and loss accounts confined to the balance remaining after depreciation, taxation and interest charges have been deducted from the "surplus on trading account." This would still give a somewhat inflated picture, but it would be much less misleading than the present practice.
After all, it is up to management to satisfy their employees—I deliberately avoid the use of the word "workers," because it is absurd to imply that management does not work just as hard
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as, or even harder than, anyone else—that all are receiving a reasonable share of the income of the business in which they are all engaged. Simplified profit and loss accounts and simplified company reports undoubtedly help to achieve this, and I should like their publication to become even more widespread. I think that every employee of a large public company should be able to see a copy, and that a real effort should be made by management and unions to explain what these reports mean. This particular question will grow in importance as automation makes itself felt, as the ratio of capital investment to labour is bound to increase. It is a good thing, also, for a man working on some highly intricate and costly machine tool to realise that it was necessary for some members of the community collectively to save up, say, £10,000, or whatever the figure may be, to buy the machine for him to have a job at all. It is better still if the man is a shareholder in the company and consequently is a part of it.
If, as many people believe, we are on the threshold of a new era in industry as a result of increased automation, the need for new capital to finance modernisation and to build up-to-date factories and machines will be enormous. This is evidenced by the current high level of demand of new machine tools and the rate of now factory building. If we are to double our standard of living in twenty-five years, this can come only by vast investment in new productive equipment in industry, as it means, of course, that we shall have to produce twice as much as we do to-day without more manpower. It is essential for everybody to realise that this new investment can come only from corporate profits and individual savings, which must be large enough for this purpose.
Automation will be an extravagant waste of effort unless full advantage can be taken of saving labour on particular processes. The trade unions do not yet seem to have awakened to the problems of the present age in taking a lead, for the ultimate benefit of their own members, in dealing with restrictive practices. They must make their members understand that they have no hope of effectively improving, or even perhaps maintaining, their standard of living so long as they insist on two or more men doing work which can easily be done by one

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man and a machine. After all, an improved standard of living means only that more goods and services are available to more people at a price they can afford, instead of these things always being out of reach however much wages may rise. There can be few more certain ways of committing economic suicide than to allow production to be held up pending futile arguments on demarcation. The Cammell Laird strike, which has now been going on for months, has already meant the loss of three-quarters of a million man-hours of production. It is a paradox that restrictive practices which were adopted during periods of large-scale unemployment might be one of the few things that could again cause mass unemployment by pricing our goods out of world markets. The main shortage in this country to-day is manpower, and our standard of living can be raised only by every member of the working population being usefully employed, with the maximum possible amount of machinery behind them. We can no more afford waste of manpower than of any other of our few precious resources.
It is interesting to note that according to the Director-General of the international Labour Office, the resistance to technical change is least in those industries which are most progressive, and vice versa. As more mechanical and repetitive work is relegated to machines, the status of the individual worker will be enhanced, and his responsibilities increased, as also will be his earning power. In other words, the importance of the individual will be increased; and let us not forget that it was individual effort that made this country what it is, a country which for many years enjoyed the highest standard of living in the world and which to-day is far ahead of the rest of Europe and is surpassed only by North America, where the trade unions have consistently welcomed technological improvements as a means of bettering the standards of living of their members. It is interesting to see from the I.L.O. Report that in 1910, 25 per cent. of the working population in the United States was classified as unskilled, while by 1950 only 10 per cent. came into this category.
It was the individual man or woman who was out of the ordinary who made this country and created businesses from
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which we all benefit. There is too great a tendency to mould people into a fixed pattern, to level down to the average, instead of giving incentives to those who have more to offer than the average. If a man earns extra reward, be he on the workshop floor, manager, engineer, research scientist, or what you will, let him enjoy the reward he has earned so that he will make the extra effort and we may all benefit. Unfortunately our system of taxation encourages mediocrity and penalises merit. There can be no question that the current excessive rates of personal taxation act as a deterrent to just that section of the community who can do most by their exertions and ingenuity to bring about the living conditions we all desire
3.59 p.m.
LORD MACDONALD OP GWAENYSGOR: My Lords, in intervening briefly in this debate, let me say first of all that I deeply regret not having heard the earlier part of the speech of my noble friend Lord Lawson. If the earlier part of his speech was as interesting, relevant and effective as the latter part that I did hear, then my disappointment is all the more intense. Let me say also that I am pleased to be following the noble Earl, Lord Cromer. While listening to his remarks, I could not help thinking how different was his background from that of my noble friend. I am not sure that the difference in background was not rather reflected in the two speeches—the approach to the problem now before us was so vastly different. But I was pleased that Lord Cromer, like Lord Lawson, agrees that the I.L.O. deserves every encouragement to deal with the difficult problems with which it is confronted to-day and has been for many years. I have always felt that the question before us in a debate like this is what we can do to make this Organisation still mere effective.
We are called upon by the Motion to discuss the Report of the 38th Session of the International Labour Conference. That takes my mind back to the end of the First World War, and my noble friend Lord Attlee and I were just looking at Dod's Parliamentary Companion, to see when the noble Earl, Lord Cromer, first appeared in this world. We were rather surprised to find that he has been in the world almost as long as the I.L.O. itself: he will attain his thirty-eighth

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birthday this year, and the I.L.O. has just passed its thirty-eighth birthday. If I could be satisfied that the I.L.O. had progressed as well as the noble Earl during those thirty-eight years, I should be a little more optimistic regarding the future of that Organisation. I am quite certain that the I.L.O. has a more difficult time to face in the future than it has had in the past—and there is no doubt that it has had a difficult past. We have only to visualise what the state of the world would be to-day without the I.L.O. Those of us who are old enough remember the end of the First World War and the conditions then prevailing. I would say that the improvement that has taken place in the meantime, as a result of the setting up of the I.L.O., indicates what a grand organisation it has been, and how well it justifies its existence. But I am not satisfied that it has fully justified the hopes of its originators; I feel that they hoped for more from this Organisation than has yet been achieved, and I am concerned as to the future.
Corning to the Report itself, I do not know how many of your Lordships have had the time to read it, but it makes extremely interesting reading. Almost the first sentence of the Report is quite striking, and we should not overlook it. It says:
"In our Report on the 37th Session we described the impact upon the Conference of the decision of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics to re-enter the International Labour Organisation. We pointed out that this raised some very difficult problems and that much hard thinking, great patience and wide mutual tolerance would be needed to solve them."
One is pleased that the Soviet Union have re-entered the Organisation, and I hope that every Communist country in the world will enter into it. But when they do they create a small problem for us, because we are not satisfied, from the trade union side, that the trade unions in those Communist countries can exercise the liberty, judgment and decision that we want trade unions to exercise throughout industry in every country. I would not charge the Soviet Union with the intention of joining the I.L.O. to make it difficult for it to improve conditions throughout the world, but it is no use misleading ourselves. What better way is there open to Communism than to do that: to retard, to hold back and make
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slow improvements for millions of workers in various countries? One cannot overlook that possibility, and I am pleased that this Report has not overlooked it, because it shows that there are some far-seeing statesmen from the different countries who are members of the I.L.O.
Then there is a passage, a little lower down on page 3, which says:
"On the whole, however, the atmosphere was much calmer than last year …"
That is followed a little later by this statement:
"The work of the Conference was thus able to proceed on a tripartite basis and once again much useful and construction work was done."
When I turn to the first sentence of paragraph 4, however, I see these words:
"It would, of course, be idle to claim that a final answer has been found to this and the other problems posed by the re-entry of Soviet Russia into the I.L.O."
However much we may welcome the fact that a greater number of countries enter the I.L.O., and are tempted to jump to the conclusion that the better it is for that Organisation, I should hesitate to subscribe to that view. But there it is; the Soviet Union are with us in the Organisation, and it is up to the countries with the free trade unions, such as our own, to see to it that this re-entered member is not allowed to use similar tactics on the industrial side as she has used on the political side. I am pleased that the warning has been given in this Report.
There is one other sentence in paragraph 4 of the Report to which I want to refer, and it is this:
"In the meantime it can fairly be said that at this year's Conference valuable time was gained and it was once more shown that the presence of delegations from Soviet Russia and other countries of Eastern Europe need not prevent the Conference from getting on with its work and producing useful results."
To me that is a most encouraging section of the Report, for it shows that the Conference realised the possibility that the new member might exercise her tremendous power for purposes different from those for which the I.L.O. is intended. Then, at the end of paragraph 5, there occurs this sentence:
"The success of this experiment in associating non-metropolitan territories more closely with the work of the I.L.O. was most gratifying and augurs well for the future."

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I should like to Compliment our Government on having initiated that move: a very wise move.
I was also pleased that the then Minister of Labour and National Service, Sir Walter Monckton, made the time—and I mean that literally, because it must not be forgotten that at that time he was confronted with some difficult problems in this country—to attend the Conference. He realised the importance of his presence there and the implication of the keenness of this country in the future of the I.L.O. I was impressed, too, by one or two of his statements, which, in all fairness, I think one ought to mention here. There are two sentences to which I would refer. The first is this:
"Labour-management relations had two separate and complementary aspects—industrial relations, which covered collective bargaining"—
and I would draw particular attention to the words "collective bargaining," which mean that the workers' representatives are free to bargain with the employers' representatives—
"about wages and conditions of employment and the settlement of disputes, and human relations, by which was meant the relations between man and man—in the case of industry, relations between management and work-people."
There is a sentence which has been much used by the late Minister of Labour and National Service, though not those same words. We had some good Ministers of Labour and National Service during the Labour Government, but I think it will be conceded by all in the Labour Party that we never had a Minister of Labour more interested in that aspect of the problem than Sir Walter Monckton. He devoted much of his time to it, and did a grand job of work.
What we have to remember is that there was a day when labour was looked upon as a secondary contribution to industry and when the big factor was capital. One had a hint of that to-day in the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Cromer: that he who made possible the provision of big machines was making a big contribution to industry. Of course he is—we have never denied it. There are many men who contribute their skill to industry. There are other men who may not contribute the same skill—the manual labourers, who make a big contribution in the work they do in industry, day in and day out—but who also gain tremendous knowledge. This
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employee-management arrangement is one which recognises the amount of experience the worker has which should be capitalised in the industry. The trade unions are willing, and there are those present who could speak for the employers' side and say that the employers are willing to give the full benefit of their experiences. But this industry-and-labour arrangement will not come until we have mastered this problem.
Reference has been made by both the noble Earl, Lord Cromer, and my noble friend Lord Lawson to a document to which I wish to refer briefly. This is a fine report by the Director-General, and I compliment the I.L.O. There are one or two sentences to which I wish to refer, and this is one in the introduction:
"For in the fast analysis the success of efforts to bring about higher productivity depends very largely on improved co-operation within industry between management and the various categories of workers concerned and their organisations. This is perhaps the most urgent and important single area requiring joint endeavour in the years to come."
He then goes on to outline what we must all realise, and that is the difficult problem confronting the I.L.O. There are seventy-four countries represented, with varying conditions between one country and another. There are advanced countries like America, and there are backward countries, which I will not name, whose industrial position is vastly different. But here the I.L.O. are trying to legislate for them all, and it is very difficult.
The Director-General said:
"… it has been evident that the relations between labour and management are either a powerful stimulus to economic and social progress or an important factor in economic and social stagnation."
The question of co-operation in some countries is difficult. The reason why I was late in getting to this debate today was because I was dealing with the Commonwealth Development Corporation, which is also confronted with this problem. It is not for me as a member of that Board, to discuss it here. Could we not get that co-operation between management and labour in some of the underdeveloped areas of the Commonwealth, in order that they may be better developed? That problem exists right through the Commonwealth, and it was a fine move on the part of the Labour Government to set up an organisation to

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look into it. We cannot ignore a Report like this.
I now come to the conclusion of the report made by the Director-General. He there poses a number of questions which I would pose here to-day, but to which I do not expect the Minister to reply this afternoon. They are questions which I feel Members of your Lordships' House and Members of another place ought to be considering. Here are the questions:
"… is there not more that we could do to tackle the substantive problems of labour-management relations in a positive way? Are there not ways by which we could come to closer grips with many of the day-to-day issues of industrial practice with which these relations are concerned? Should we not seek to adjust our overall programme to admit of a greater emphasis on activities which contribute to improved relations between management and the various categories of workers and their organisations?"
This is the last question:
"Is it not our responsibility at least to explore the possibilities?"
That applies to each one of us. I am pleased that I.L.O. the have gone a step further and appointed a committee to explore those possibilities.
My last words are also a quotation from the report, which I feel indebted to David Morse for having made:
"Work in the field of labour management relations is clearly a matter of vital concern to all Governments at the present time as well as to employers and workers and their organisations."
Here is the last sentence:
"Our responsibility is to vitalise and strengthen the democratic process within our own sphere of competence, since it is a process which is basic to the accomplishment of our objectives and which is at the same time a solid rivet in the structure of world peace."
I hope that the Minister replying for the Government will be able to give some encouragement and re-echo the fact that we are strong believers in, and strong supporters of, this great organisation.
4.15 p.m.
LORD HADEN-GUEST: My Lords, I feel greatly privileged to be able to take part in this debate, because it is one of immense significance. It is one outside my ordinary sphere, dealing with things from the standpoint of a doctor and of the scientist applying science to purely human problems. I would say that, in a sense, it is an even greater problem, although, of course, everything depends
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upon the carrying out by the individual members among us of the research work and all the other work necessary in connection with maintaining the standard of health of the population of this country—and, indeed, of all the other countries of the world, although that, of course, is not our business. I am struck by the fact that, in considering this subject of the labour organisation of the world—because that is what it amounts to—it is not our country alone with which we are concerned but all countries, and I think a substantial proportion of all countries are represented.
This Report shows that we are now at a stage of development in industry which means a new period of civilisation. It is already being shown that that is the case. I should like to quote two examples from the International Labour Review, the official organ of the I.L.O. The first is with regard to the working of the Cleveland engine plant of the Ford Motor Company, and is an example of the increase of their production. On one part of the engine block-line twenty-five men now perform the work formerly done by 117 men, principally because the present group of operators no longer have to stand before each machine. Here is another example:
"Another combination of machine tools, tended by nine men, drills the necessary holes in the crankshaft, whereas this was formerly done by thirty-nine men working on twenty-nine separate machines."
There is in those two examples a statement of the revolutionary reorganisation—what one may call the re-tooling—of industry. The U.S.S.R. is reported as having similar machines with immense productive capacity. It is within the power of any nation in the world, who have the trained people necessary to carry out the work, to do this in its own territory, by the use of its own labour and its own capital.
Here is another example:
"In the United Kingdom a recent announcement concerning the Standard Motor Company's plans to modernise their tooling for the production of motor vehicles and tractors describes the performance of an electro-hydraulic transfer miller capable of performing electrically all six machining operations on a cylinder head."
A further example is this:
"This machine … will give a much higher output with the direct labour of only two men

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—a loader (unloading is automatic) and a supervisor—than twenty-two men now achieve with conventional machine tools."
I could give numerous other examples by quoting from this Report. It seems to me of intense importance to the world. It is practically a world revolution in the application of machinery for the benefit of human lives. How shall we plan our future, in view of the powers of production that we now have? These powers will certainly increase. We have great powers in our hands and I hope that we shall be careful to apply them in the interests of the great world civilisation.
One good thing that seems to have been made clear by the discovery of nuclear energy and of the nuclear missiles that might (though we hope never will) be brought into existence is that from the standpoint of the human race any future war will be pure madness, because most certainly we shall destroy each other. That is the only sure result of such a war. I speak here with some particular knowledge, because I have looked into the matter from the medical point of view, which is most important, and from the defence point of view, and there is no doubt whatever that the odds that that would be the result are about 100 to 1—or is it 1,000 to 1? Perhaps the noble Lord who is to reply will venture to give an estimate of the result of such a war, but the probability—I would say almost the certainty—is that it will mean vast areas of human destruction in all parts of the world, with perhaps a few places in the more remote and less cultivated and civilised parts of the world left untouched. Certainly, the civilized, organised, and industrialised parts of the world are those likely to be destroyed. Let us be careful how we apply these new forces. Let us use this immense new power of automation to speed up industrial reorganisation and revolution in order to provide the basis for a civilisation built up to higher standards than we have ever had before.
4.22 p.m.
LORD BENNETT OF EDGBASTON: My Lords, before I come to the few remarks which I wish to make, I should like to associate myself with all that has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, and others speaking on the opposite side, about the great value of the I.L.O. I have watched it for a great
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many years. I know something of its initial difficulties and realise something of the problem it faces to-day. Although it may not have achieved all it would have desired, I know from my knowledge of it that it has made a great contribution to the industrial life of the whole world.
I had no intention of speaking when I came here this afternoon but I should now like to fill in a gap which I notice was left by the noble Lords, Lord Lawson and Lord Haden-Guest, in dealing with this problem of automation—a subject that I mentioned when I spoke before in this House. Both noble Lords gave examples that have been quoted in the Press of a displacement of labour by the introduction of some of these new processes; but what they did not say was where these machines have come from. I have repeatedly had quarrels on this matter with people in all walks of life. They have talked about "the curse of the machine age." They have said that the introduction of the machine "has taken away the skill." In fact, of course, it has done nothing of the sort. The machine age has transferred the skill from the man who used to finish with his hands to the man who makes the machine which produces a large number of things. Life in a council house to-day is better than it was in a palace in the Middle Ages. There has been the constant shift of skill from one particular process to another. I agree that there will no doubt be dislocation and trouble but labour will not be lost through being used to better advantage. One can go into a shop full of machines, some operating under this process of automation and some more or less of the old-fashioned type. But they did not grow; they had to be made by the skill of man. The problem now is not that there will be displacement and movement to machine minders; the problem is, how are we to get sufficient skilled men to make these machines, the jigs, the tools and the fittings? That is where the problem lies.
The noble Lore, Lord Lawson, referred to advertisements that he has seen in the Press. I have seen them. My own organisation is responsible for putting in some of the advertisements for technological men, graduates and high grade men. The problem is not only there; it is to get

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sufficient skilled men to make all these machines which will reduce the amount of labour of the unskilled man. I suggest that the problem on both sides of industry to-day is to speed up all the training schemes they can in order to get a bigger percentage of skilled men as compared with unskilled. The noble Earl, Lord Cromer, referred to what has been and is being done in America to-day. He gave some interesting figures. Formerly, 25 per cent. of the workers in the United States were unskilled. By tackling this problem, they have brought that proportion down to-day to 10 per cent. We have to tackle the same problem: we have to get more skilled men. There will be not less work but more. That has been so all through the history of mechanised industry. Mechanised industry has not meant fewer men, but more. It has shifted the work from one side to another. There is a great chemical works where there is very little labour employed. It is a vast organisation but the work has been done by other people in preparing for it. So it goes on, To-day, the problem is not that we shall have too much labour; it is that we shall be short of labour. And we must make certain that it is trained in the direction in which we want it.
4.27 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, I intervene only to say how gratefully we on these Benches welcome the general atmosphere which the debate has engendered, and to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, for introducing it and the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, for a very moving speech which touched me deeply. We have heard such a lot about the two so-called sides of industry, the employers and the employees, as the noble Earl, Lord Cromer, was careful to call them. This talk about trying to understand each other has gone on for a long time, and the effort to understand has also gone on in some limited degree for a long time. But surely, now that we have reached the atomic age and the age of automation, we can no longer afford to lose time. I support with all my heart what the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, has said to-day. We must get together. I hope that the good will that we on this side of the Iron Curtain are seeking to spread will permeate to the other side,
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and that there may be good relations throughout the world between the employers and the employed.
4.28 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I want to intervene for a few minutes to add my tribute to those which have been paid by other noble Lords to my noble friend and colleague Lord Lawson for giving us the opportunity of discussing this interesting Report and listening to a most delightful and well informed speech. I should like to give the noble Lord my own personal thanks because a perusal of this Report has been of great interest to me and I endorse what he has said as to the admirable way in which it brings out matters which are obviously of the greatest moment to us at the present time in this country, and indeed to people in almost all other countries which have embarked upon the process of industrialisation.
The first thing that impresses itself on one, looking at this Report, is that it makes quite clear that all over the world there is a tendency for the numbers of people who are engaged in agriculture to decrease and for the numbers of people who are engaged in manufacture and metal processes to increase. That that process should be going on all over the world I regard as a matter of the greatest importance, particularly when it is the case with such countries as Italy, which one had rather assumed were, so to speak, committed to occupying the great mass of their people more or less permanently on a rather unsatisfactory agricultural basis. Indeed, all over the Asiatic Continent there is, obviously, a trend towards manufacture, which trend is clearly of the greatest significance. It means that we in this country who have in the past relied on finding markets among the agricultural workers in these distant countries will clearly have to put in a large amount of new thinking as to how, over the coming years, we are to direct our own industrial development. One other significant point which I think arises from these Tables is that in those countries which are, so to speak, in the van in regard to industrial progress, there is what is perhaps an even more significant trend towards the occupation of the largest numbers in the communities in such services as those of transport and commerce. That, again, is

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a significant and important matter which I think has never attracted the attention which it deserves
The next point which seems to me to be of the greatest significance for us here is that the report brings out most clearly how increased production depends basically on an increase in the tools which are available to the workpeople. I suppose that is a rather obvious point, but it is not until it is made with the emphasis with which the Director-General makes it here that perhaps one realises what it means. I get rather tired, in a way, of having it "rubbed in" that the output per head of the workmen employed in the United States is about twice the average output in this country; because the workpeople there are provided with twice as much tool and machinery capacity as we have. Surely it is time that we pulled ourselves together and provided our own workpeople with the machine tools and the general tools to enable them to catch up with their fellow workmen in the United States.
It is quite obvious from this report that the problem of re-tooling and tooling up industry is extraordinarily closely bound up with the problem of education which was referred to by the noble Lord opposite, in a speech with which I found myself in a great deal of sympathy. Clearly, industrial output and industrial progress and development in all the highly-developed industrial countries is depending more and more on education—using education in a very wide sense so as to include industrial training and apprenticeship and other matters of that kind. Although we in this country over the last few years have clearly been making education al progress, I am sure we have not been going ahead anything like so quickly as we ought to have done. There is still a great deal of leeway to be made up, I think, both at the top end of the schools and, more particularly, at the point at which industry takes over from the schools.
Although, since the end of the war, progress has been made, and in certain industries and among certain enlightened employers that progress has been most marked, nevertheless, I am afraid that, looking at the country as a whole, industrial concerns have not been taking their duties in that regard as seriously as one would like. I am quite sure that
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if we are to get this large, more highly-trained industrial army to which the noble Lord opposite referred, it is along those lines. I am sure that he is right—indeed the report brings it out—that while it may be that in many respects the old, skilled type of workmen in certain branches of industry is no longer in demand, nevertheless, that is rather a displacement than a disappearance of the need.
The report brings out that the proportion of workpeople who are no more than labourers is now a good deal smaller than it was twenty or thirty years ago—in other words, throughout industry there has been a tightening up of, and an increase in, the skill which is required, and is indeed called for, from practically all the workmen who are engaged in it. I think we want the tightening up throughout industry, from top to bottom, from the highest of scientists trained fundamentally in the main principles of the natural sciences on which, in the end, the whole thing depends, right down to the boy who is just leaving school and taking up his apprenticeship. It is significant that on the whole the Director-General comes out on the side of those who contend that apprenticeship is still essential, at any rate over most of industry—that the boy should be, so to speak, trained with a long-term conception of what is going to be his position in industry, rather than just pitchforked into it, to live from hand to mouth and to feel that he can do any sort of odd job which comes his way. Certainly, the need for skilled labour has not diminished. I entirely agree with the noble Lord opposite when he says that, as the years go by, we shall find that a much higher degree of skilled operative is required than we have at present.
Finally, of course, it appears throughout this report that the labour-management relationship is one of the most essential elements in the whole problem of production in this and in any other country. It is significant that only over the last few years has there been a beginning towards giving adequate attention to this highly significant problem. The human element in industry is so obvious that one would have thought that all those engaged in any position of authority in industry would, quite naturally, devote a great deal of their time to it; yet, as one goes about, one realises that people

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are extraordinarily busy and that working with materials and paper in offices away from human contacts is in some ways much easier and much less troublesome than getting down to the hard and difficult task of adjusting oneself to the human relationships which are essential. Although there may be good will, I am afraid there is often not sufficient tenacity in putting that good will into operation.
That this is so, I think appears quite clearly time after time in the report with which we are concerned to-day. I am looking particularly at page 77 of the report, where the Director-General makes it clear that although a beginning has been made in the development of labour and management co-operation at the plant level, it is only just a beginning; that the surface has scarcely been more than scratched, and that there is here an obvious field of the richest opportunity for further work towards the discovery and building up of new techniques in joint co-operation. I am sure that here in these vital paragraphs there lies, if not the whole of the secret, at least a large part of it. I hope that these wise words of the Director-General will be taken to heart and followed up by both sides—by managements and by the workpeople of this country.
4.40 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, it is almost exactly two years since your Lordships debated, on a Motion put down by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, the Seventh Report to the United Nations of the International Labour Organisation. All of us well know that the noble Lord has for many years been intensely interested in that Organisation and in the problems of labour. The thoughtful speech that he has made this afternoon will be widely welcomed by all your Lordships who heard it. The reply to the last debate was made by my noble friend Lord Lloyd, then Under-Secretary of State for Home Affairs. On this occasion it is to be answered by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence who, on the face of it, has even less to do with labour than the Home Office—except, of course, that the new Minister of Defence, to whom the noble Lord paid so kindly a tribute, was for a long time Minister of Labour.
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I am particularly grateful for this opportunity since, although I have for a few months answered for the Ministry of Labour in this House, I have, of course, no departmental responsibility on the subject of the Motion, and it has enabled me to learn something of the work of the International Labour Organisation and of the problems which automation will bring to industry. I must confess that it is a rather difficult debate to answer, because on this occasion not only are the rules of your Lordships' House wide but the terms of the Motion and of the Report are also wide. I am even more nervous over my task after hearing the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, speak on my noble friend's background and age. In fact, the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor and the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, are wrong, for the International Labour Office was born in the same month and the same year as I was. My noble friend Lord Cromer was then a robust child of eleven months, and no doubt taking an active interest in the labour-management relations of the nursery. Whether or not he was, we all listened with great interest to his speech this afternoon.
I do not know whether your Lordships have had time to read the Report of the delegates of Her Majesty's Government to the International Labour Conference last year. It is not very long and it makes interesting reading. It provides evidence, if evidence were needed, of the usefulness and importance of that Organisation. The Organisation now has seventy-one members and is one of the oldest world organisations. It has a unique feature in that, as the noble Lord, Lord Lawson has said, it is tripartite—that is to say, it has representatives of employers and workers, as well as Governments, and all take part in its work and have a voice in its decisions. Broadly speaking, its aims and objectives can be summarised as the promotion of social justice throughout the world by the establishment of decent conditions of labour. It carries out this task by laying down international labour standards through conventions and recommendations. Since 1919, 104 conventions and 100 recommendations have been adopted, on an enormously wide range of subjects, and there can be no doubt that these have played an important part in raising labour standards throughout the world.

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Since the end of the war the activities of the International Labour Organisation have grown rapidly, both in scope and in importance. For example, the Organisation now takes part in the Technical Assistance programme of the United Nations and gives assistance to members in such directions as manpower organisation, vocational and technical training and industrial safety and health. It does this by visits from missions, by sending out experts, by the provision of fellowships, by conferences and other means. For those who doubt the need for such an organisation as the I.L.O. and who are suspicious of international bodies of this kind, I think perhaps it is worth while to give two concrete examples of the constructive work which the Organisation has done.
To-day, thousands of seamen live on board ship in decent, comfortable quarters, with a limited number of men to each room. They owe this improvement in great part to an I.L.O. convention adopted in 1946, as a result of which many ships then on the drawing-board were changed to take account of its provisions. Again, although the I.L.O. does not claim that it has been wholly responsible for the fact that millions of workers have holidays with pay or social security protection, it is true that, before conventions were drawn up by the Organisation, only relatively small numbers of workers enjoyed those benefits. Successive Governments in this country have fully supported the work of the I.L.O.—indeed, as is well known, British Government representatives played a leading part in establishing the Organisation. To-day we still play a leading part and are recognised by other members of the Organisation as one of those who lead the way in trying to solve labour problems. This is equally true of British employers and workers' representatives who have made, and continue to make, a valuable contribution to the work of the Organisation.
There are two points in the Report which we are discussing to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention. The first was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor (who I know has had to leave), and concerns paragraphs 3 and 4 of the Report in which the problems of Russian membership are discussed. The main controversy centres upon the question of employers' representation on committees of
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the Conference, which is referred to in paragraphs 15 to 17 of the Report. Naturally this caused some sharp differences of opinion, but the compromise solution which was reached enabled the Conference to proceed with its work. The attitude of the United Kingdom Government delegation was that these constitutional and procedural difficulties should not be allowed to hinder the Organisation in the performance of its proper tasks.
There is no doubt that these developments have confronted the I.L.O. with some very serious problems, the solution of which, as the Report says, will be of vital importance in determining the whole future of the Organisation. The Fact-Finding Committee, which is referred to in paragraph 4 of the Report, will submit its conclusions in the near future. It is not easy to see what the answer to these problems will be, but certainly Her Majesty's Government will do everything in their power to help the Organisation to overcome the difficulties as it has overcome so many other difficulties during its existence.
The second point to which I want to draw your Lorships' attention is the speech made at the Conference last year by my right honourable friend who was then Minister of Labour. As will be seen, he was concerned with many of the subjects mentioned this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson. In particular, he devoted a large part of his speech to the work of the Organisation in human relations in industry, and a summary of his speech is given in paragraphs 19 to 22 of the Report. This is not an economic or a political task. Our own experience with nationalised industries has shown us that these problems arise irrespective of the ownership of the business. The Russians are quite ready to admit that they have labour and management problems in their factories. Their chief delegate said that it is a mistake to suppose that there are no differences between management and workers in Russia.
For our part, both employers and workers have come to realise that a man needs not only an adequate wage but something more if he is to do his best. In our present-day conditions, where crafts have largely disappeared—and after all it was in the skill of the crafts that men found satisfaction—the problem has become more difficult. But that satisfaction

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can be replaced, although replaced by something more complicated. It can be replaced by pride in working in a well-run factory, pride in the end product which the firm produces, pride in working with people whose skill and competence are respected and, finally, pride in the efficient operation of complicated machinery. I am told that when the steel workers in South Wales left their hand-rolling mills, which called for a great deal of skill, to go to the highly mechanised mills at Margam, where this skill was partially replaced by mechanical and electronic devices, they accepted with satisfaction their new rôle as operators of these highly complicated machines. That does not always happen. Sometimes workers look upon the introduction of new machinery with resentment, fearing that their skill and status, and perhaps even their livelihood, will be endangered. It is the task of both management and unions to take these very natural feelings into account. Employers must see that the need for this new machinery is explained. Re-training, transfer, and so on, must be discussed, and unions must play their part in this also.
There were naturally many other topics discussed at the Conference this year which I have not time to mention. It is interesting to note that for the first time at a Conference observer delegations from several British Colonies were present. and we shall encourage this as much as possible in the future. Another activity of the I.L.O. has been the sending of a delegation to the International Conference on the Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy; but I do not want to waste your Lordships' time in reciting facts which can easily be discovered by reading the Report.
The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, mentioned the question of technical education and its great importance in this mechanical age. I expect that the noble Lord has noticed that the Prime Minister has had something to say on this subject in almost every speech he has made in the last twelve months. I will only repeat what he said on January 19 in his speech at Bradford. He said:
"We have already decided upon an extensive programme for technical education which will be put into effect over the next five years. The Education Ministers will describe the details in a White Paper to be published before the end of next month."
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This and the other things which have been said indicate the importance which Her Majesty's Government attach to this subject, and I do not think at the moment I can carry the matter any further.
As regards atomic energy, which the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, also mentioned, he will no doubt have read A Programme of Nuclear Power (Crud. 9389) in which the Government's plans are clearly set out. They are bold and, I think, far-reaching. The Atomic Energy Authority realised from the start the necessity for devoting considerable effort to training scientists and engineers from industry in nuclear technology. This has been done and is continuing to be done. The heavy electrical plant manufacturers and associated boiler firms, whose staffs have received this training, are now preparing for the first nuclear power stations to be built for the Electricity Authority. The experience which industry is gaining will be of great value in the competition for export orders for nuclear equipment.
The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has devoted a large part of his speech, as have most of your Lordships who have spoken in this debate, to discussing the question of automation, and he has asked whether the Government are giving special attention to this significant new development. I have made it my business in the last ten days to try to find out something about automation. I think perhaps the first question which one has to ask oneself and to answer is, "What does 'automation' mean?" There seem to be widely differing definitions. To some people it means the development of mechanical methods of moving components from one process to another without the delays involved in manhandling. This, I think, is what was meant by Mr. Harder, Vice-President of the Ford Motor Company, who coined the word "automation," for which I am not altogether sure that we are grateful. Other people understand by the word the principle whereby a machine which is carrying out a process automatically is itself automatically corrected and controlled. To others it seems to mean the application of electronics to manufacture and recording, and in particular the use of the computer.
In any event, whatever may be meant by the word, and whatever the noble Lord

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may have meant by it, none of these is a particularly revolutionary device. Perhaps 1 may give some examples of what I mean. I believe that one of the earliest examples of automatic machinery was the mechanical loom built in 1741 by Jacques de Vaucanson. In 1782, Oliver Evans, in the United States, produced a continuous process lour mill using an ingenious combination of belts, conveyors and endless chain buckets. As regards the automatically controlled mechanism, I am told that Witt, when he invented the flyball governor, was really doing exactly the same thing. It is also interesting to realise that in about 1650 Blaise Pascall built six arithmetic machines, and a computer was developed in 1823 by Charles Babbage in this country. It will be seen from these examples that the changes now taking place are really nothing more than an accelerated movement in the direction of increasing mechanisation. There have been quite a number of fully automatic factories in England for some years. For instance, I believe that razor blades are made and wrapped without being touched by hand, and such things as tinned and bottled foods are equally made without any human intervention.
We have all read in magazines and newspapers some very colourful accounts of automation—what is called (and it has been so called this afternoon) a second Industrial Revolution, the problems it will bring, and the Utopia which is unfolding before us. My Lords, without in any way underestimating the developments which have taken place and which are likely to take place, I am inclined to think that this is going a hit too far. I paid a visit last week to the Ford factory at Dagenham, where the cylinder block of one of a range of cars is processed by automative methods. It is a remarkable feat, and I believe that others are to be found in similar factories in England. It seemed to me, however—to take only one example—that there was a limit to the automation possible in a car factory. It is limited because of the nature of the goods being produced, because of the capital cost of the machine and the relatively short period of useful life as models change, and limited also by the volume of production. I believe, therefore, that although there is a great deal of scope for all sorts of automation, it will be a gradual process which will take
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place in comparatively small instalments and will pass comparatively unnoticed. There are those, I know, who are anxious lest these developments will mean that machines will take over jobs previously done by manual labour. As Lord Lawson has said, that is hardly a novel fear either. The Luddites were, I suppose, the first of the line.
Whatever the arguments for and against mechanisation may have been 150 years ago, it seems to me that there are certain incontestable advantages in modernising mass-production lines. In the first place, modern mechanical processes tend to improve, rather than detract from, the quality of the finished article. It is not a case of the cheap and nasty product of the machine replacing the hand product, but the introduction of a new precision and reliability in the mass-production line. Secondly, these processes are designed to benefit worker and management alike. They provide a less monotonous and less physically exacting job for the man at the bench, and they produce a better article at a very much faster rate. The difference between the new and the old concept is rather like that between driving a motor-van and pushing a heavily laden wheel-harrow. It may be said that the objection is that one motor-van will do the work of half a dozen wheel-barrows. But from the inquiries I have made I am convinced—as was my noble friend who sits behind me—that the fears about the displacement of labour by the introduction of automation in the factories are unwarranted, and likely to be as far ahead as we can see, and certainly in the present circumstances of acme shortage of labour.
In the long run, automation, gradually introduced, will increase production and so create more jobs and not fewer, although one kind of labour may tend to be displaced by another. In a very interesting article in a booklet called Automation, Mr. Albu, who is a Member of another place, says:
"Even on the level of a single factory it has, during the post-war years, often been the case that the increase of output by mechanisation in the early stages of production has led to more employment at the later stages, such as finishing and packing which cannot be mechanised to the same extent."
And he ends his article by saying this:
"Provided there is full consultation and reasonable human understanding on the part of

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managements and provided there is a continuance of the present industrial climate, based on full employment, it does not look as if the introduction of new methods to which such an ugly name has been given, will meet with any opposition from the trade union side of industry."
Last week I paid a visit to "Leo," the remarkable machine built and designed by J. Lyons & Company, Limited. I should have thought that there is clearly an immediate future for this sort of machine, which is capable of doing, with great swiftness and accuracy, jobs previously performed by clerks, or not performed at all because they could not be done in time to be of any use. In the long run this may mean that fewer wage clerks will be needed in industry, although the small size of many firms precludes the use of these machines even though sub-contracting is a possibility. But we shall want more electronic engineers for the construction and maintenance of the computers, and the increased efficiency of business methods which the machines will bring should ensure a bigger output and consequently more jobs. But the real problem is not really a technological one; it is rather in the ability to reconcile the work which is done in our modern industrial society with the dignity and status of those who do that work. That is really what is meant by human relations in industry: the recognition that, as Sir Walter Monckton has said, a man brings to a factory more than the work of his hands; he brings a part of his life, and in that working life he should enjoy rights and satisfactions just as he does in the life of the larger community outside.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, that the authority of the International Labour Organisation is growing throughout the world. In the thirty-six years of its existence it has most certainly left its stamp on the social policies and social legislation of countries which are at very different stages of their political development. The work it does is perhaps too little known among the ordinary people of this country. I wonder whether the average man in the street would even know what the initials "I.L.O." stand for. I could have answered that question, but a very few days ago I could have told your Lordships little more. I think that is a pity. It may be the fault of the I.L.O. itself, or owing to the fact that the work the Organisation does is not very
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sensational. But I am convinced that, despite the political difficulties which have been caused by the joining of the Communist countries, the International Labour Organisation has a very useful and constructive part to play and it is one of the world organisations most worthy of your Lordships' support.
5.4 p.m.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, for his reply. The noble Lord is Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence, which sounds negative to the average citizen, but in his reply he talked more like a Minister of Reconstruction. While doing first-class work on defence, he has shown commendable zeal in studying this subject in order to make a reply which on the whole is very satisfactory. I have already paid my tribute to the International Labour Organisation which, as the noble Lord well said, is growing in influence and importance. They have at their disposal probably greater concentrated knowledge of labour relations than any other organisation in the world because they cover seventy-four countries. I am not criticising the efficiency of the organisation any country has for dealing with labour matters. As a matter of fact, I would say that our Ministry of Labour is the most detailed and forceful organisation touching the lives of the mass of working people to be found anywhere in the world.
I should like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I hope they feel, as I do, that it has been well worth while spending an hour or two upon this important subject. I was pleased to see my old friend Lord Attlee in his place during the debate, for he has been responsible, more than any other person, for introducing new powers to the I.L.O., so that when they make conventions on social security it must be remembered that he has not been without influence in these matters. I am personally very pleased to see him here. I said to him on a previous occasion, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant; come up higher." So he came up. All I have to do now is to beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at seven minutes past five o'clock.